Macron visits China, with Russia's war in Ukraine top of agenda
发布时间 2023-04-06 14:25:00 来源
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Hello and welcome to news out from the BBC World Service coming to you live from London. I'm James Kimarassami.
你好，欢迎收听BBC国际广播电台的新闻报道，直播自伦敦。我是詹姆斯·基马拉萨米。
We begin today in Beijing where the Chinese president Xi Jinping is hosting his French counterpart in manual Macron for a state visit. Other states were on their mind and in their statements when they spoke in the great hall of the people, specifically Russia and Ukraine.
我们今天从北京开始，中国总统习近平正在接待法国总统马克龙进行国事访问。在人民大会堂讲话时，他们的注意力和声明关注了其他国家，特别是俄罗斯和乌克兰。
Mr Macron suggested that his host could play an important role. He'll help him to end the bloodshed in Ukraine and restoring global peace and stability. Russian aggression in Ukraine has dealt a blow to this international stability. It has put an end to decades of peace in Europe. I know I can count on you to bring Russia to its senses and everyone back to the negotiating table.
马克龙先生建议他的东道主可以发挥重要作用。他将协助他结束乌克兰的流血事件，恢复全球和平和稳定。俄罗斯在乌克兰的侵略给国际稳定造成了打击。它结束了几十年的欧洲和平。我知道我可以依靠你让俄罗斯清醒过来，并将每个人带回谈判桌。
President Xi recently enjoyed a warm reception at the Kremlin but he's not spoken directly to President Zelensky despite being invited to do so by the Ukrainian leader. He did though insist that China shares France's vision for a political solution to the conflict.
习主席最近在克里姆林宫受到热情的接待，但尽管乌克兰领导人邀请他直接与泽连斯基总统交谈，他仍未这样做。但是，他坚称中国分享法国对于解决该冲突的政治方案的看法。
On the Ukrainian crisis, China favors peace through political negotiations. Together with France, we launch an appeal to the international community to maintain reason and restraint and to abstain from any actions likely to lead to any deterioration or even an unraveling of the crisis.
关于乌克兰危机，中国倡导通过政治谈判实现和平。 我们与法国一同呼吁国际社会保持理性和克制，并避免采取任何可能导致危机恶化甚至解体的行动。
The two leaders also talked bilateral business announcing a series of deals, notably in nuclear and wind energy before having a three-way meeting with the other visiting senior European official, the European Commission's president Ursula von der Leyen.
两位领导人还就双边业务进行了谈话，并宣布了一系列交易，尤其是在核能和风能方面的合作。之后，他们与其他到访的欧洲高级官员——欧洲委员会主席乌尔苏拉·冯·德莱恩进行了三方会议。
She's been delivering tougher measures on trade to China in recent weeks. We'll hear what China expects from its relationship with France later on in the program.
她最近几周在对中国采取更严厉的贸易措施。在接下来的节目中，我们将听到中国对其与法国的关系有什么期望。
First, we'll get this assessment of what the French are hoping from this trip. Jamil Andalini is Europe editor for the news website Politico. He traveled to China with President Macron and he spoke to us just after the two leaders' news conference.
首先，我们会了解一下法国在此次旅行中的期望。Jamil Andalini是新闻网站Politico的欧洲编辑。他和马克龙总统一起前往中国，并在两位领袖的新闻发布会后与我们交谈。
"Well, I think that President Macron is trying to maintain open channels of communication with China at a time of really heightened stress and strain on China's relationship with the West at a time when Russia's illegal occupation of Ukraine continues and China has been trying to play a real beautiful, fencing game as one of my Chinese friends here put it by trying to on the one hand make sure that Russia doesn't lose but on the other hand make it look like China is a neutral party maybe hoping to foster peace. Macron is clearly trying to get harder statements from President Xi on Ukraine and that feels like one of his main objectives. How successful has he been so far? I would say not quite middling successful. Xi Jinping made some pretty bland statements just before. I was just in the great hall of the people as they gave a press conference with communist Chinese characteristics which is a press conference with no questions from the press and they gave dueling statements or sort of you know reciprocal statements and Xi Jinping made a nod towards peace and wanting to solve the problem through negotiations and diplomatic efforts. I guess one small concession he mentioned the transfer of children and non-combatants saying that they wanted to not see that sort of thing and that was something that Macron was definitely interested in securing something around that topic."
我觉得马克龙总统正在试图保持与中国的开放沟通渠道，而此时中国与西方的关系处于非常紧张和紧张的时刻，而俄罗斯非法占领乌克兰继续进行，中国一直在试图打一场真正美丽的击剑比赛，正如我在这里的一位中国朋友所说，一方面要确保俄罗斯不会输，另一方面要让它看起来像是中国是一个中立的政府，也许希望促进和平。马克龙显然试图从习近平主席那里得到更加强硬的关于乌克兰的声明，这感觉像是他的主要目标之一。迄今为止他取得了多大的成功呢？我会说不是很中庸成功。习近平在之前发表了一些相当平淡无奇的言论。我刚刚在人民大会堂，他们进行了具有共产主义特色的新闻发布会，那是一场没有媒体提问的新闻发布会，他们进行了对话或者说是互相陈述，习近平向和平致意，并希望通过谈判和外交努力解决问题。我想他提到的一个小让步就是儿童和非战斗人员的转移，说他们不想看到那种事情，这是马克龙肯定有兴趣在这个话题上争取的东西。
"What about rhetoric on nuclear issues?"
关于核问题的修辞学如何？
"I think Xi Jinping did mention it. Macron mentioned it much greater length than specifically talked about the transfer of nuclear weapons to Belarus but Xi Jinping effectively I would say restated longstanding Chinese positions which you know we don't want to see nuclear amigurant which I think is a reasonable position but it's been China's longstanding position so I didn't see a lot of movement on that at least in the public statements that have happened so far. But Macron is going to spend more time with Xi Jinping this evening and then we're all flying to Guangzhou and southern China and he will spend a little bit more time with Xi Jinping there as well. The French delegation is saying that he'll spend all up maybe five or six hours with Xi Jinping on this trip."
我认为习近平提到过这个问题。马克龙在谈到将核武器移交给白俄罗斯的具体问题上提到得更多，但习近平实际上重申了长期以来中国的立场，我们不希望看到核扩散，我认为这是一个合理的立场，但这一直是中国的立场，至少在公开声明中，我没有看到太多的变化。但是今晚马克龙将花更多的时间与习近平在一起，然后我们都会飞往中国南部的广州，他还将在那里与习近平花费更多的时间。法国代表团表示，他在这次旅行中可能与习近平共度五六个小时。
"There's a business aspect to this as well that does President Macron see this visit as a business opportunity for France."
这方面还有一个商业层面，马克龙总统是否认为这次访问对法国是一次商业机会。
Yes absolutely. So he brought 50 odd business people with him on this trip to China and I've spoken to some of those CEOs of those major French companies and it's clear they very much would like a steady and stable relationship between China and France which would allow them to sell more to China and it's clear that from Macron's perspective the idea of decoupling is sort of something that's touted by many politicians in the US and some of the business communities in the US." that's definitely not what Macron is talking about so there's clear difference between the French position on economic and trade ties with China and the US position.
是的，绝对是这样。他带了50多位商界人士一起来中国，我与其中一些法国大型公司的CEO交谈过，很明显，他们非常希望中法之间能够建立起稳定的关系，这样就能更多地向中国销售产品。从马克龙的角度来看，脱钩的想法开始在美国的许多政治家和商界中受到推崇，但这绝对不是马克龙所谈及的，因此法国在经贸关系上与美国的立场存在明显的差异。
So does President Macron think that keeping strong trade ties is a way of keeping China on board and having some sort of leverage with it in terms of its policy towards Russia and more broadly its foreign policy? I would say that's my reading of it. I haven't had President Macron told me that directly but I am under the strong impression that many in Europe including President Macron many believe that cutting off trade and economic ties with China reduces the leverage of Europe in the West and pushes China more firmly into the arms of President Putin in Russia.
那么，马克龙总统是否认为保持强大的贸易联系是保持中国支持并在对俄罗斯的政策以及更广泛的外交政策方面具有某种影响力的一种方式？我认为这是我的理解。虽然马克龙总统没有直接告诉我，但我强烈感觉到许多欧洲人，包括马克龙总统，认为切断与中国的贸易和经济联系会降低欧洲在西方的影响力，并将中国更牢固地推向俄罗斯总统普京的怀抱。
Perhaps on a lighter note what's it like traveling inside the French presidential bubble? I have to say for me personally it's very surreal I lived 22 years in China and 11 of them in Beijing and I say I was always very annoyed when foreign dignitaries would visit because all the roads get closed and you sit in traffic for many hours and to be part of the delegation and have the roads closed for me and be sitting in a delegation whisked around Beijing is a different perspective put it that way.
也许说一件轻松一点的事情，你觉得在法国总统保护圈里旅行是怎样的体验呢？我必须说对我个人来说非常超现实，我在中国生活了22年，其中11年在北京，我想说当外国要人访问的时候，一直会很烦恼，因为所有的道路都会关闭，你要在交通中长时间等待，而现在作为陪同代表，路被关闭，让我在北京的行程中感到不同的视角。
The European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen there as well I mean she's given rather more robust speech in the run up to this. Is this being seen as can a good cop bad cop the pair of them? I would say that gives too much credit to the coordination that may or may not have gone on beforehand. I would say that Ursula von der Leyen has a different role obviously in Europe as the president of the European Commission. She has a I would say luxury of not having to pander so much to a business community there has a lot of invested in China and she I would say also has you know a different constituency so she's able to say things that are much harder for a head of state of any European head of state given all the business ties and investment ties that exist between countries.
欧洲委员会主席冯德莱恩在此也发表了一些更强硬的讲话。这是否被视为一个好警察坏警察的组合？我认为这给了协调可能发生或未发生的过多赞誉。我认为，冯德莱恩在欧洲担任欧洲委员会主席，她有不同的角色。她有一种我认为奢侈的不必要过度迎合商业社区，这里有许多对中国的投资，她也有一个不同的选民群体，因此她能够说出比任何欧洲国家元首更艰难的事情，因为许多国家之间存在商业和投资纽带。
And that was Jamil Andalini of Politico speaking from Beijing.
这是 Politico 的 Jamil Andalini 在北京发表的讲话。
Well while President Macron has been on the international stages domestic problems are still making their presence felt in the wings. Today is the 11th day of nationwide industrial action in France that's the protest at the government's plan to increase the French pension age from 62 to 64. Sounds of the protests in Montagy's today while Axel Person is a trained driver he's a member of one of the biggest labor unions in France as Sege Tee and he's confident that the protests will eventually force the government to give in.
虽然马克龙总统一直在国际舞台上亮相，但国内问题仍然在幕后显现。今天是法国全国工业行动的第11天，抗议政府计划将法国退休年龄从62岁提高到64岁。今天在蒙塔吉的抗议声音不断。虽然阿克塞尔·皮尔森是一名训练有素的司机，但他是法国最大的工会之一的成员——塞格·提，他相信抗议活动最终会迫使政府做出让步。
What we aim to achieve through these continued protests strikes industrial action and so forth is to make the country as ungovernable as possible in order to force the employers to call the government and tell them just to scrap this law because it's just it's worth it. The government is bent on basically stealing two years of our pensions and we're determined to fight them.
我们希望通过持续的抗议、罢工和其他工业行动，让这个国家尽可能地难以治理，以迫使雇主呼叫政府，告诉他们要废除这个法律，因为这完全是值得的。政府试图从我们的退休金中“偷走”两年，我们已经决心与他们斗争。
That fight has taken a more literal turn during some of the recent protests with radical groups stirring up violence and French police taking a more aggressive and in some cases unorthodox approaches led to a handful of serious injuries and that has brought international criticism with the EU human rights watchdog among the bodies questioning whether the response by the police has been proportional.
最近的示威活动中，激进组织煽动暴力，导致冲突变得更加字面意义上的激烈。法国警方采取了更为激进的、有些不规范的手段，导致部分人严重受伤，引起了国际谴责，其中包括欧盟人权监察机构等组织质疑警方的反应是否合理。
Well the French political scientist Sebastien O'Rosset has conducted research into police oversight in France and several other countries so what are the main criticisms of the French police during these recent protests. The police in France is under heavy criticism for the use of force, not a fatal force but the use of rubber bullets and of flashbang grenades because these weapons they are the source of a number of casualties. The second point is the lack of a sufficient consideration of the right to protest. The Minister of Interior himself has declared spontaneous protest on the streets to be illegal which is not the case by European law and by French law.
嗯，法国政治学家Sebastien O'Rosset进行了关于法国和其他几个国家的警察监管的研究。那么在这些最近的抗议活动中，法国警察主要受到哪些批评？法国警察受到了过度使用武力的严厉批评，不是致命的暴力，而是使用橡皮子弹和闪光弹，因为这些武器是一些伤亡事件的根源。第二点是对示威权的不足考虑。法国内政部长本人已经宣布街头的自发抗议是非法的，但这并不符合欧洲法律和法国法律的规定。
On the question of individual officers, can they get prosecuted for this kind of action? How difficult is it to find a gangster police officer? And the job of a police officer itself is difficult in such circumstances because it's a disorganized set of multiple protests, but when they do something wrong, it's very unlikely that they are going to be prosecuted.
关于个别警官，他们能因这种行为受到起诉吗？在找到一个暴徒式的警察有多难？在这样的情况下，警察的工作本身就很难，因为这是一组不同的抗议活动，但如果他们做错了什么，他们极少会受到起诉。
The French police officer on the street is very difficult to identify. They are wearing helmets, public order suits, and they are not wearing systematically their individual identification number. So there are a couple of things that there is the way the policing is taking place. But as you say, also, the question of the legitimacy, the legality of the protests that they are policing, and you say that the Interior Minister has essentially moved the gold posts on that. And I guess that brings us to the fact that all roads lead to the political leadership in this, don't they?
在法国街头，警察很难辨认。他们戴着头盔，穿着公共秩序服，且不系统地佩戴个人身份识别号码。因此，有几件事情正在发生着。但正如你所说的，还有警察示威活动的合法性和合法性问题，并且你说内政部长实际上在这方面改变了规则。我想这就将我们带到了所有事情都归结于政治领导的问题，不是吗？
Absolutely. In the French police system, the only and absolute boss is the Minister of Interior. The Minister of Interior not only sets the directions and the goals, but it directly intervenes in the tactics, and he would sit in the crisis room and give directly instructions to the governors, which are the representatives of the states in the French provinces. Of course, he says this is not about police brutality, this is a few individual cases of officers using disproportionate force. Absolutely. The Minister says we are not being violent, and everything is legal.
在法国警察系统中，唯一和绝对的老板是内政部长。内政部长不仅制定方向和目标，还直接介入战术，他将坐在危机室中并直接对省级代表——州长发出指令。当然，他说这不是警察暴行的问题，只是少数个别警察使用了过度武力。绝对是的。内政部长说我们没有使用暴力，一切都是合法的。
The other point he makes is that a thousand police officers have been injured in protests which have increasingly been hijacked by more radical, more violent groups. This is correct. There is a tiny minority of protesters who have decidedly oriented themselves to the use of a certain dose of violence, and they have hurt a number of police. But nonetheless, there are no deaths among police ranks. The only people who are dead in the last five years, they are on the protester's side, and we have two protesters in Saint-Soulin who are now in a coma.
他的另一个观点是，有一千名警察在越来越受到更激进、更暴力团体劫持的抗议活动中受伤。这是正确的。只有极少数的抗议者明确倾向于使用一定程度的暴力，他们已经伤害了一些警察。但是，警察队伍中没有死亡事件。在过去的五年中，唯一死亡的人是抗议者，我们在圣索林有两名抗议者现在处于昏迷状态。
You talked about the last five years, and that incorporates of course the yellow vest movement, which lasted for many weeks and again brought plenty of accusations about police tactics. After that, lessons were said to be learned, there were new regulations put in place, what was meant to have changed and what has changed?
你谈到了过去五年，其中当然包括了持续多周的黄背心运动，并再次引起了关于警察战术的许多指责。之后，据说已经学到了教训，制定了新的规定，那么，这些规定意味着什么改变，有什么已经改变了呢？
The yellow vest was a major crisis for six months, and during that period there were more than 30 people who lost an eye, a hand, or a foot, and this is absolutely unprecedented in France.
黄背心是我们过去六个月的一大危机，期间有超过30个人失去了眼睛、手或脚，这在法国绝对是前所未有的。
After the yellow vest, the Minister of Interior decided that there should be a collective reflection about the tools and the tactics in order maintenance in France, and they have done what they called a national scheme for public order.
在黄马甲事件后，法国内政部长决定应该对工具和策略进行集体反思以维护秩序，他们已经制定了所谓的公共秩序国家计划。
It's a document that has been produced and it puts together European principles about the freedom of protest with practices that are observed in France, such as the use of rubber bullets. But these principles are not being implemented today in France.
这是一份文件，里面整合了有关抗议自由的欧洲原则以及在法国执行的实践，如使用橡胶子弹等。但是，这些原则今天在法国并未得到实施。
They've been codified but almost systematically every single principle is being violated. And that was the French political scientist Sebastien Rochef from Cien's Paul Grenoble University.
这些原则已经被编码，但几乎每个原则都被系统地违反了。这是来自法国Cien的保罗·格勒诺布尔大学的政治学家塞巴斯蒂安·罗切夫说的。
You're listening to News Hour from the BBC World Service. Coming up later on the pilot who had to deal with a real life snake on a plane.
你正在收听来自BBC国际广播电台的新闻时间。稍后我们会报道一位飞行员在飞机上遇到真正的蛇的故事。
I moved the seat forward and I could sort and nicely curl up a neat little bundle underneath my seat. I was definitely an unwelcome passenger. So how did Rudolf Erasmus deal with the deadly coba find out in just over 10 minutes time.
我把座位往前移，这样我就能够整理好一个整齐的小包并舒适地蜷在座位下面。我肯定是个不受欢迎的乘客。那么Rudolf Erasmus是如何处理致命的眼镜蛇的？在接下来的10分钟内就会揭晓。
The headlines of this hour at talks in Beijing President Macron of France has urged his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping to use his influence to help stop Russia's war in Ukraine.
这个小时在北京的谈话中的头条是，法国总统马克龙敦促他的中国同行习近平利用他的影响力来帮助停止俄罗斯在乌克兰的战争。
Saudi Arabia and Iran have held their first high level meeting in more than seven years broken by China and a mayor in Australia is considering legal action against the company behind the artificial intelligence chatbot chat GBT. Cusing it of defamation we'll be speaking to the mayor's lawyer on News Hour tomorrow. You're listening to the BBC World Service.
沙特阿拉伯和伊朗举行了超过七年来的首次高级别会议，该会议是由中国和澳大利亚市长打破的。澳大利亚市长正在考虑对人工智能聊天机器人Chat GBT背后的公司提起诽谤诉讼。我们将在明天的新闻时段采访该市长的律师。你正在收听BBC世界服务。
This is News Hour coming to live from London with James Kamar Asami. President Biden will visit Northern Ireland next week as part of the event to mark the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, the political deal which largely ended three decades of conflict known as the Troubles. One key component was a decision to bring Sinn Fein, the party linked to the Irish Republican paramilitaries of the IRA into a power-sharing regional government.
这里是《新闻小时》，我是詹姆斯·卡马尔·阿萨米，直播来自伦敦。拜登总统将于下周访问北爱尔兰，参加标志着《好周五协议》25周年的活动。这项政治协议基本上结束了被称为乱局的长达30年的冲突。其中一个关键组成部分是决定让与爱尔兰共和军IRA相关的政党新芬党参加权力共享的地区政府。
The BBC's Ireland correspondent Chris Page was in his last year at high school at the time. He's been back to the classroom to hear some personal reflections on the agreement and its impact.
BBC的爱尔兰记者Chris Page在那时还在高中的最后一年。他已经回到课堂听取一些个人关于协议及其影响的反思。
Well, I'm back in our history and politics classroom with our teacher David Armstrong and a few old friends. Victoria, you school magazine report there. You wrote it. Mr Armstrong's kindly lifted out for us. Do you want to read a bit from it?
嗨，我和一些老朋友一起回到我们的历史和政治课堂，和我们的老师David Armstrong在一起。维多利亚，你写了校刊报道，Armstrong老师现在好心给我们分享了一些。你想读一点吗？
The year of 1997-98 was a year of expectancy and tension in Northern Ireland politics, with parties working round the clock to try and reach an agreement by the May deadline. The current affairs team consisted of chairpersons Simon McAvoy, committee members Gail McConnell and secretary Victoria Danoun. What do you remember most about that time?
1997-98年是北爱尔兰政治方面期待与紧张并存的一年，各政党不断努力以在五月的最后期限前达成协议。时任现场新闻团队的主席是西蒙·麦克阿沃伊，成员包括盖尔·麦康奈尔和秘书维多利亚·达努恩。你对那段时间最深刻的回忆是什么？
There was still this amazing optimism of everyone here that yes this can happen and we're not going to give up who. I feel the hand of history upon our shoulder and today is about the promise of a bright future. A line can be drawn under the bloody past.
每个人都有着惊人的乐观情绪，他们相信这个愿望一定会实现，不会放弃。我感受到历史的力量在我们肩上，今天代表着一个充满希望的未来。过去的血腥历史可以被搁置一边。
Mr Armstrong, what were your thoughts sitting at the front of this classroom and others and looking at its us? In terms of teaching it, I sort of felt there's something happening here. It's not just history, this is now. At that stage, it was actually whether we were going to buy in for hope that change would come or we would just want to see more of the same.
阿姆斯特朗先生，当您坐在这个教室的前排并看着我们时，您有什么想法呢？就教学而言，我觉得这里正在发生一些事情。这不仅仅是历史，这是现在。在那个阶段，实际上我们正在决定是否愿意为希望而投资，或者我们只是想看到更多相同的东西。
Gail, what do you think back and remember? It felt like such an exciting time because what we were studying in the classroom wasn't in the textbooks and we were all about to turn 18. We were also being schooled by you that you know voting is just like the bare minimum of what political involvement activism looks like. It really felt like an experience of kind of coming of age.
盖尔，你回想起来有什么想法吗？当时感觉非常兴奋，因为我们学习的东西不在课本中，而且我们都快18岁了。你还告诉我们，投票只是政治参与活动的最基本要求，这让我们受益匪浅。这真的感觉像是一种成长的经历。
Simon, you've lived in England for I think nearly a whole 25 years. What really comes to me is how alive politics felt at that period. You know, I'd always been interested in politics but really it always felt like kind of a distant thing that other people do and suddenly we were kind of in the middle of this really momentous political moment. It felt like we were kind of sorting it out for ourselves.
Simon，我想你在英国已经生活了接近25年了。真正令我感到的是在那个时期政治是多么活跃。你知道，我一直对政治很感兴趣，但它总是感觉像是别人做的远离的事情，突然间我们就置身于这个非常重要的政治时刻之中。感觉像是我们自己在为此进行排序。
Gail, you have written a couple of volumes of poetry, one of which focuses on very personal experiences in your life that you did speak a bite. My own kind of personal history was that my father was a prison governor in the May as prison and he was shot and killed by the IRA outside our home in 1984 when I was three and a half. I really wanted to try to understand the very long history that had kind of created the context for my father's murder and for everything that followed.
盖尔，你写了几卷诗歌，其中一卷着重记录了你生活中非常私人的经历，这些经历你没有对外透露。我的个人经历是，我的父亲是毛伊斯监狱的狱长，在1984年我三岁半的时候，他在我们家外被IRA杀死了。我真的想尝试理解为什么我的父亲的谋杀背后那么漫长的历史，以及后来一切发生的背景。
I remember you when Shed Fane came, you were sitting right up the front and listening to them very intently. People still tend to sit at the front of those meetings, which is why you, in a way, stood out, but I also was aware of your story in that sense.
我记得你在 Shed Fane 来的时候，你坐在前排，非常专注地听着。人们仍然倾向于坐在那些会议的前面，这也是你在某种程度上很显眼的原因，但我也意识到了你的故事。
I'll read something from this that kind of speaks to the moment of my father's murder, I suppose, but also that tries to reckon with an aftermath that's endless really. My father rejoices, that's what it means, my name, I mean, but did he? What if anything was the source of his joy? Was there joy between us before he left, where after he walked through the hall, the squeaky door, saddle across the tiles, walking outside into the morning, into those bullets sailing through the blue air, into perforation, into a heap into gravel on almost human shape into death into silence or whatever comes after.
我要从这里读一段话，它可能与我父亲被谋杀的时刻有关，但也试图面对那无尽的事后。我的父亲欢喜，那就是我的名字的意思，但他真的这么欢喜吗？在他离开之前，我们之间是否有欢乐？当他走过走廊时，门吱吱作响，马鞍穿过瓷砖，在清晨走出去，走进那些穿过蓝天的子弹，穿透，堆成人形状的碎石，走向死亡，走向沉默或者其他什么，是否存在欢乐？
What are your thoughts on the Good Friday Agreements sort of being and I? I would have voted in favour of it. One of my father's murderers did get out of prison under the Good Friday Agreement. One of the things I'm conscious the Good Friday Agreement didn't do was give us away collectively to reckon with the past.
你对《复活节协议》实际上成为了我和我的想法有什么看法? 我本来会投赞成票的。我的父亲的杀手之一在《复活节协议》下获释。我有意识到《复活节协议》没有让我们集体地去面对过去中的事情。
Okay, and we're connoing ending that report by the BBC's Chris Page in Northern Ireland.
这样说的话更像中文母语者：好的，BBC的Chris Page在北爱尔兰结束了那份报告。如有需要，可以改成：“好的，BBC的Chris Page在北爱尔兰的报告接近尾声。”
17 million chickens have been slaughtered in Japan as part of the country's efforts to deal with the current outbreak of bird flu. That is more than double the number of carcasses produced during the last cult of its kind, and because of the nature of the disease, the dead chickens have to be disposed of with care.
日本为应对当前的禽流感爆发已宰杀了1700万只鸡。这是上一次这样的疫情期间产生的尸体数量的两倍以上，由于病情的特殊性，死去的鸡必须小心处理。
It seems finding places to do that is causing a bit of a headache for the authorities. Let's find out more.
似乎找到能够做到这一点的地方让当局感到有点头痛。让我们了解更多情况。
We're joined now by James Sims, a Tokyo-based journalist.
现在我们欢迎东京驻扎的新闻记者詹姆斯·辛斯加入我们。
Hi James, how widespread that spread it then is this bird flu outbreak?
嗨詹姆斯，这次禽流感爆发有多广泛传播了？
Well, it's actually across Japan, and according to one survey done by the national broadcaster NHK of 26 prefectures, about 16 of them have had problems with finding places to bury the carcasses, and so that's about one third of their prefectures in Japan.
实际上，这个问题遍布日本各地。国家广播公司NHK进行了一项涵盖26个州的调查后发现，其中大约有16个州在处理动物尸体掩埋问题时出现了困难，大约占到了日本1/3的州份。
So land shortage of problem?
那么土地短缺是个问题吗？
Well, I mean there are various issues that they face. One is actually securing the land, and once you secure the land, you have to get approval from the local residents that you're going to do this, and then also you need to conduct surveys to make sure there's no water, you know if it could affect whales or water supplies, and so you have to check that ahead of time.
嗯，我的意思是他们面临各种问题。其一是确保拥有地权，一旦确立，还要得到当地居民的批准，并进行必要的勘测，以确保没有对鲸鱼或供水造成影响的水资源。这些都需要提前检查。
But in some cases, they've secured the land, but they haven't actually done the surveys ahead of time to make sure that they can bring in heavy equipment and that there isn't water, and so now there have been some moves, including in the next, the current fiscal year budget, to have money supplied by the central government to ensure that there's proper surveys done on land before they might have to use it.
在某些情况下，他们已经确保了土地，但事实上他们事先并没有做过调查，以确保他们可以带入重型设备，而且没有水，因此现在已经有了一些措施，包括在下一个财年预算中，向中央政府提供资金，以确保在他们可能不得不使用土地之前对土地进行适当的调查。
And they have to bury the carcasses, do they? Can they burn them?
他们必须把尸体埋掉，是吗？他们能够焚烧吗？
They can burn them, but there are a couple of problems with burning. One is it takes a lot more time. For example, in one case, I think a couple of three years ago, it took them almost two months to incinerate the carcasses. So, you can't really have the carcasses sitting around too long. You've got to do something with them, and the most efficient and quickest way to resolve or to get rid of the carcasses is to actually bury them.
他们可以将它们烧掉，但燃烧存在一些问题。其中一个问题是需要更长的时间。比如，我记得几年前某个案例中，他们差不多用了两个月的时间才将畜体焚化。所以，畜体不能太久停留。你必须要对它们采取一些行动，而最有效和最快速的解决或处理畜体的方法就是将它们埋葬。
Now, I guess prefectures that haven't been affected don't really want to take on a load of potentially infected birds. Do they mean is that one possible solution though to ship them to places that do have room?
现在，我猜那些没有受到影响的地区并不希望承担潜在感染的鸟类的负担。他们的意思是，把它们运往有空间的地方是否是一个可能的解决方案？
I think, in principle, they want the carcasses to be buried at the poultry factory because you don't want to be transporting infected birds across, you know, even outside of that town or that area of like a town or village because you don't want to have that risk of spreading it. And so there have been various ideas that have been proposed. I mean one, you know I mentioned just in terms of doing the surveys ahead of time so you have the space available and make sure that there's no water in it, but they're also talking about trying to split up the poultry in the sort of the henhouses right so you don't have them all in one space if you can actually separate them, then if there's an outbreak you don't have to cull every bird in the house.
我觉得原则上，他们希望在家禽厂将动物尸体掩埋，因为你不希望运输被感染的鸟类，即使是在该镇或该镇或村庄的范围之外，因为你不希望有传播的风险。因此，已经提出了各种各样的想法。我的意思是，提前进行调查以便有可用的空间，并确保里面没有水。此外，他们还在讨论尝试将鸡舍中的家禽分开，这样如果爆发了疫情，你就不必把房子里的每只鸟都宰杀。
And briefly, one other impact of this millions of disappearing birds means, well, far fewer eggs.
简而言之，数以百万计的鸟类消失所带来的另一个影响就是，蛋的数量大大减少了。
Yes, prices have risen. I think about 30, 40, maybe even sometimes 50 percent. And also, there was a survey done by one of the Japanese research companies, and they have 100 restaurant chains, and it said that a quarter of them have actually cut back on products that use eggs, like pancakes, and also what they call the, there's like a custard that they use, it's like a savory custard that uses eggs. And so, they've actually stopped serving those because the prices have risen so much.
是的，价格已经上涨了。我认为涨了大约30、40，甚至有时候50%。还有，日本一家研究公司做了一项调查，他们有100家餐厅连锁店，报告显示其中四分之一已经削减了使用鸡蛋的产品，例如薄煎饼，还有一种称为奶沙的咸乳蛋羹。所以，因为价格上涨太多，他们实际上已经停止提供这些产品。
Many, many impacts of this bird flu outbreak in Japan.
这次禽流感爆发在日本带来了很多影响。
James Sims in Tokyo, thank you very much.
在东京的James Sims，非常感谢。
Tokyo thanks very much for that you're listening to news out from the BBC World Service with me James Kimarasami.
非常感谢您收听来自BBC世界服务的新闻，我是詹姆斯·基马拉萨米。东京
Coming up next we'll get China's view on that state visit of Emmanuel Macron, first though in a case of life imitating popular cinema, a South African pilot has had to deal with a real-life snake on a plane.
接下来我们将了解中国对于Emmanuel Macron的国事访问的看法，但首先要说的是，南非的一名飞行员不得不应对飞机上的真实毒蛇，就像电影里那样。
Rudolph Erasmus has been called a hero for landing the aircraft safely after a deadly cobra slithered into his cockpit. Ground staff had spotted the snake the night before but thought it had disembarked. But as Rudolph took to the skies, the reptile made a surprise appearance, as he explains to news as Regina Vadynathan.
鲁道夫·埃拉斯谟斯因在致命的眼镜蛇爬进驾驶舱后成功安全降落飞机而被称为英雄。地勤人员在前一晚发现这条蛇，但认为它已经下船。但随着鲁道夫起飞，这条爬行动物出乎意料地出现了，他向新闻记者雷基娜·瓦丹纳桑解释了这件事情。
"I felt this little cold sensation where your hips are treated. I initially thought it might have been my water bottle leaking. I usually keep the water bottle on my outside of my thigh, my leg and my hip and the side of the cockpit. So, I presume I didn't close it properly. That was the first thing that came to my head. But as I then sort of turned to the left and looked down, I saw the snake pulling its head back down underneath the seat. So, this snake was actually on your bare skin, correct?" "Correct, correct. You didn't scream. So, I was actually in the moment of stun silence. It's as if my brain did not register what was going on. So, there was a moment of silence from my side, but I eventually let the passengers know who I was flying that day that listen, we've got a bit of a situation on board that snake that we couldn't find earlier this morning, some of fun and sway under my seat. The only thing I went through my mind is, listen, we need to get down onto the ground as safely and as quickly as possible before this becomes a very interesting matter because I was, at some point, also scared that the snake might start slithering through the whole cabin area, and I was did I want to cause mass panic in the back, so I'm actually I'm glad I'd seek to breathe with you on my seat and stay there for the flight. And what about your colleague who's sitting next to you?" "There was definitely a moment of silence in the aircraft, to be truly honest, I think it could be a people breathe, but everybody was very, very calm. Nobody got excited. So, you learned safely, and everybody's calm."
我感到了一丝丝凉意，就是在你的腰部被咬的地方。我一开始以为可能是我的水瓶漏了。我通常把水瓶放在我的大腿外侧、腿和臀部的侧面以及驾驶舱的侧面。所以我认为我没有把它关好。这是我脑里想到的第一件事。但是之后我转向左边看下去，看到蛇把头收回了座位下面。所以这条蛇实际上在你的裸露皮肤上，对吗？
"对，对。你没有尖叫。所以我当时处于惊愕和沉默的状态。就好像我的大脑没有记录下正在发生的事情。所以从我的一边发生了一段沉默的时刻，但我最终告诉了当天和我一起飞行的乘客，我们飞机上有一个有点棘手的情况，就是早上我们找不到的那条蛇，有一些逗趣地躲在了我的座位下面。唯一想到的是，我们需要尽可能安全、快速地降落，否则这将成为一个非常有趣的事情。因为有时候我也害怕蛇会开始蜿蜒爬行整个机舱，我不想在后面引起大规模的恐慌，所以我很高兴蛇停在了你的座位上，并留在那里飞行。还有坐在你旁边的同事怎么样了？
"在飞机上确实有片刻的沉默，说实话，我认为可能是因为人们屏住了呼吸，但每个人都非常冷静。没有人激动。所以大家安全地着陆了，一切都很平静。"
The snake is still attached to your hip at this point or is it moved, "no, no, no, no, from the moment that I saw it, it went down underneath my seat, and it stayed there for that last 10-15 minutes until we touched down, "and once you landed, everybody vacated the aircraft. What happened to the snake?" "As I got out last, I moved the seat forward, and I could sort nicely curled up in that neat little bundle underneath my seat. We then contacted local snake catches. They didn't welcome, but unfortunately, by the time they got there, it completely disappeared. Could it still be somewhere in the aircraft?" "Next time, there is a slight possibility it might still be in there. We're all just hoping by the time I flew back this morning that it would have gotten out overnight at some point."
蛇还在你的腰际上吗，或者已经移动了？“不，不，从我看到它的那一刻起，它就钻到我的座位下面，一直待在那里，直到我们降落，在那最后的10-15分钟里。” “一旦你降落了，每个人都离开了飞机。蛇怎么了？”“当我最后走出飞机时，我移动了座位，我发现它被紧紧地卷起来藏在座位下。然后我们联系了当地的捕蛇者，但他们并不欢迎。不幸的是，等他们到达时，它完全消失了。它仍然可能在飞机上吗？”“下一次，它还有可能在里面。我们只希望在今天早上我回来飞行时，它可能已经在晚上某个时候跑出去了。”
"Rudolph, you've been hailed a hero. How do you feel with that term?" "I wouldn't go that far as calling it a hero. Most of the help also came from my passengers remaining calm, keeping the whole cockpit and the cabin leader at that point sterile."
「鲁道夫，你被誉为英雄。你对这个称号有什么感觉？」「我不会到那个地步称自己是英雄。大部分的帮助也来自于我的乘客，他们保持冷静，让整个机舱和机务长都保持了清洁。」
"How do you feel now that I mean you're talking to us on the BBC around the world? I mean, how do you feel with all this media interest that's come from this snake on a plane incident?" "I must say I didn't anticipate it being or becoming this big of a story, to be truly honest. It took off like a felt fire, indeed it did."
你现在和我们在BBC全球交谈，感觉怎么样呢？我是说，你对于这场“飞机上的蛇”事件所引起的所有媒体关注感觉如何？
我得说，我真的没想到这会成为这么大的新闻，说真的。这就像火一样迅速蔓延开来。
Rudolph Erasmus speaking to my colleague Regina Vadynath in there; you're listening to the BBC World Service, this is news hour coming to you life from London with James Kimarassami.
你好，我是鲁道夫·埃拉斯谟，正在和我的同事雷吉娜·瓦代纳斯交谈。您正在收听BBC世界新闻的新闻时段，由詹姆斯·基马拉萨米为您现场直播，我们来自伦敦。
We're going to return now to our main story; the French President Emmanuel Macron's state visit to China. His call on Xi Jinping to use his influence with the Kremlin too, as Mr. Macron put it, "bring Russia to its senses on Ukraine." Well, at their joint news conference, the French leader spoke roughly twice as long as President Xi, and the political website said that this was noted by the Chinese leaders on to Raj as a protocol faux pas.
我们现在要回到我们的主题上来了，那就是法国总统埃马纽埃尔·马克龙对中国进行的国事访问。他呼吁习近平利用自己的影响力向克里姆林宫施压，“让俄罗斯在乌克兰问题上醒悟过来”。在他们的联合新闻发布会上，法国领袖发言的时间大约是习近平的两倍，政治网站认为这是中国领导人视为礼仪失误的一件事。
Never putting a foot wrong is our Asia Pacific editor Michael Bristol who's with me here in the news out studio. Well, first of all, this visit more broadly Michael why is Xi Jinping giving President Macron so much FaceTime? Several hours.
我们亚太地区的编辑迈克尔·布里斯托尔先生从未出过差错，他就在我们的新闻工作室和我在一起。首先，这次访问更广泛地来说，为什么习近平主席要给马克龙总统这么多面对面的时间呢？长达数小时。
Well, these major powers in the world these two big leaders, they've come together. China's one for protocol as well, as you've just mentioned there. So, giving visiting leaders plenty of faces is an important part of their diplomacy.
这些世界上的主要势力，这两位大领导人，他们已经聚在一起了。中国也很注重礼仪，就像你刚才提到的一样。所以，给到访的领导人足够的面子是他们外交中的重要部分。
There are specific reasons, though, why President Xi Jinping might want to court President Macron specifically, the economy. That's what really China wants to focus on. It's just come out of three years of really strict Covid restrictions, mass testing, sudden lockdown, that's really taken a toll on the economy in China.
然而，习近平主席想要特别亲近马克龙总统有具体原因，那就是经济问题。这才是中国真正想要关注的。中国刚刚经历了三年非常严格的Covid限制，大规模检测和突然的封锁，这对中国的经济造成了严重影响。
And, over the last few weeks and months, you. see leader after leader in China really talking about we focus in attention on the economy and what aspects of that is trying to encourage foreign companies to train invest as much as possible in China.
在过去的几周和几个月中，你会看到中国的一个个领导人都在谈论我们需要将精力集中到经济方面，鼓励外国企业尽可能地在中国进行投资培训。
Because of course the Chinese Communist Party derives much of its power in China from its ability to increase living standards year after year that's taken a hit over recent years so it wants more investment and interesting in one of the deals signed on the sidelines of this visit by President Macron to China was a deal by Airbus to increase production of its factory its assembly plant in Tianjin city of Tianjin and has getting a lot of press already in China so it really just shows you the sort of idea behind so much face time for President Macron.
因为中国共产党从其年年增加生活水平的能力中获得了很多权力，但近年来这方面受到了打击，所以它希望获得更多投资。在马克龙总统访问中国期间签署的一项协议中，空客公司同意增加其天津生产工厂的生产能力，引起了中国媒体的极大关注，这表明了马克龙总统在寻求通过此次访问获得更多影响力的想法。
So that's sort of practical thing that China wants to get out of this talks but what about in diplomatic terms it's not doing deals with the United States at the moment is it is this about driving a wedge between Europe and the US?
所以，中国想从这些谈判中获得实际的东西，但外交方面并不是正在与美国做交易，这是要在欧美之间制造裂痕吗？
It certainly is a little bit about that interest in the Xi Jinping made reference to that kind of diplomatic push. It kind of commended France for being one poll in a multipolar world really suggesting actually pushing China push Europe France and Europe towards an idea China wants to see Europe in a position China wants to see Europe at this to give us an indication because of course we have had over recent years trade war between China and the United States.
确实，习近平所提到的那种外交推动与此有些关系。他赞扬法国在一个多极世界中扮演了角色，实际上是在推动中国推动欧洲，让法国和欧洲朝着中国想看到的方向发展，这给我们提供了一个指示，因为近年来中国和美国之间发生了贸易战。
Talk in the United States of decoupling the economy there from the Chinese economy, interesting the Ursula Wonderland was also in Beijing she talked about something called not decoupling but de-riskin taking the risk out of business deals. Certainly I think President Xi Jinping wants to sort of secure Europe as an independent area and entity separate to the United States.
谈到美国将其经济与中国脱钩的话题时，有趣的是乌苏拉·范德莱恩也在北京讲述了一些被称为去风险而非脱钩的内容，即从商业交易中消除风险。我认为习近平主席肯定希望确保欧洲成为一个独立的地区和实体，与美国分开。
The state with the United States briefly then I mean another development today of course China launching military drills in response to that much anticipated meeting between Taiwan's President Tsai Ing-wen and US House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. What's China going to do after this? What's its next step?
美国某个州，简要地说，今天出现了另一项发展，当然是中国针对预期已久的台湾总统蔡英文与美国众议院议长凯文·麦卡锡会面而开始的军事演习。中国会在这之后做些什么？它的下一步是什么？
I mean China's angry because it believes Taiwan is a part of its own territory so it tries to discourage any meeting between Taiwanese politicians and elected officials from other countries that's why it was so angry about this particular meeting but in some respects I feel it's going to de-escalate quite quickly because it would have been a bigger problem hard Kevin McCarthy gone to Taiwan because Tsai Ing-wen met him in America on her way back from Sunorn else I think China will see that.
我是说中国非常生气，因为它认为台湾是自己领土的一部分，所以它试图阻止台湾政治家与其他国家的选定官员的任何会面，这就是为什么它对这次特别会议感到如此愤怒，但在某些方面，我觉得这种局面会很快得到缓解，因为如果凯文·麦卡锡去了台湾，那将是一个更大的问题，因为蔡英文在从其他地方回美国的途中会见了他，我认为中国会明白这一点。
Different and different and Nancy Pelosi are very briefly then what about Ukraine what about this call from President Macron for President Xi to play a key role in ending the war? He could play a key role I don't think he will. President Xi Jinping has already indicated he's already shown he's aligned himself with President Putin of Russia because he sees that alliance as a bullwalk against the United States and for China that's more important than the war in Ukraine.
不同的事情，不同的人，以及南希·佩洛西都简要地提到了，那么关于乌克兰呢？马克龙总统呼吁习近平主席在结束战争方面发挥关键作用，这有什么影响吗？他确实可以发挥关键作用，但我不认为他会这样做。习近平主席已经表明，他已经与俄罗斯总统普京结盟，因为他认为这个联盟是对抗美国的屏障，对于中国来说，这比乌克兰的战争更重要。
Michael many thanks Michael Bristo our Asia Pacific editor well on the day that the Chinese leadership is focusing on its relationship with Europe Beijing's recent diplomatic breakthrough in the Middle East has produced a highly symbolic meeting in the Chinese capital for the first time in seven years the foreign ministers of Iran and Saudi Arabia have shaken hands the two regional rivals have also announced plans to take concrete steps such as restoring direct flights designed to end an era of confrontation.
谢谢您，迈克尔。我们的亚太编辑迈克尔·布里斯托干得很好。在中国领导层关注与欧洲关系的这一天，北京在中东的最近外交突破，在中国首都举行了一次非常象征性的会面。伊朗和沙特阿拉伯的外交部长在七年来首次握手。这两个地区的竞争对手也宣布了计划，比如恢复直达航班，旨在结束对抗的时代。
Dr. Sanam Vakil is director of the Middle East and North Africa program at the International Affairs think tank Chatham House here in the UK so what is she making of today's meeting? I think the meeting is a really important signal of intent both from Iran and Saudi Arabia's side that they remain committed to this process to ironing out further details of the agreement and to ultimately of course resuming diplomatic ties.
德鲁·萨南姆·瓦基耳博士是英国国际事务智库查塔姆研究所中东和北非项目的主任。那么她对今天的会议有何看法？我认为这次会议是伊朗和沙特阿拉伯表达诚意的重要信号，他们致力于通过这个过程进一步解决协议细节并最终恢复外交关系。
Is there substance to it or is it more of a photo opportunity? I think they both benefit from the photo opportunity. This sends I think a very clear message that a rapprochement is underway but the devil of course will be in the details and it remains to be seen what role if any China will play in making sure both sides remain compliant and take this. forward.
这是有实质性的，还是更多只是一次拍照的机会呢？我认为他们两方都受益于这次拍照机会。我认为这传达了一个非常清晰的信息，即两个国家正在逐渐接近，但实际执行的细节问题非常重要，有待观察中国将扮演什么角色，以确保双方遵守协议并将其推向前进。
Yeah I want to talk about the Chinese role in a minute but in terms of what they've discussing bilateral visits of private sector and official delegations talking about restarting flights between the two countries at those significant developments do you think? They are and they are important steps that will put meat on the bones of this relationship.
嗯，我想要谈谈中国在这方面的角色，但是就私营部门和政府代表之间的双边访问以及重新开启两国间航班的讨论而言，你认为这些都是重大的进展吗？是的，它们是重要的步骤，将为这种关系增添实质内容。
Iran is seeking of course greater economic integration in the region is desperately in need of investment to push back against US sanctions but the real compromises will come in regional ties. Iran has supposedly committed to respecting sovereignty and to supporting Saudi Arabia's efforts to reducing conflict in Yemen and it's unclear what that is going to look like, what the terms and conditions of that agreement will look like and of course from the Saudi side there has been an acknowledgement that it would roll back support for diaspora based media that has been important in sort of supporting protests that we saw in Iran towards the end of last year.
伊朗当然希望在区域内实现更大的经济一体化，也迫切需要投资来抵制美国的制裁，但真正的妥协将在区域关系上体现。伊朗据说已经承诺尊重主权，并支持沙特阿拉伯在也门减少冲突的努力，但目前还不清楚这将是什么样子，协议的条款和条件将是什么样子，当然从沙特方面已经承认将撤回对支持伊朗去年底看到的抗议活动的基于流散人群的媒体的支持。
Could though this bring real peace to that country that has essentially been the location of a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran, Yemen? I think it would be a first step but there are multiple conflicts going on in Yemen. It's not just in Iran, Saudi conflict, there are internal divides in Yemen that also have to be addressed and here I think the support of the international community is really important.
这个国家一直是沙特阿拉伯和伊朗在代理战争中争夺的地方，这样做真的能带来真正的和平吗？我认为这只是第一步，因为也有多种冲突正在也门发生。不仅仅是伊朗和沙特的冲突，也门内部的分裂也必须得到解决，我认为这时国际社会的支持非常重要。
The UN envoy has been trying to bring all sides together and the US has placed a lot of investment in capital in mediating as well. So reducing tensions is important but it's not going to end the war.
联合国特使一直在尝试将各方联系在一起，美国也在调解方面投入了很多资本。因此，降低紧张局势很重要，但这并不会结束战争。
And what of Beijing's role, much noted, interesting that this meeting happening in the Chinese capital on the day that President Macron, the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen are also in China, a signal, you might say that China is saying that we are the guys that can bring these two countries together. Do you think China's role is going to remain crucial?
那么北京的作用呢？非常引人注意。有趣的是，这次会议在中国首都举行的当天，法国总统马克龙和欧洲委员会主席冯德莱恩也在中国。你可以说这是一个信号，表明中国正在说：我们才是能将这两个国家联系在一起的人。你认为中国的作用会继续保持至关重要吗？
Well, I think that China very much benefits from its ability to bring these two countries together. I don't think there are very many other states right now that would have been able to do that, including the United States. It's important to remember it doesn't have diplomatic ties with Iran and hasn't met directly with Iran for quite some time. So this has been an easy win for China. And I think that China is trying to showcase that it has the potential to be a bolder, multilateral international player. I'm not quite sure if China has the capacity to ensure accountability and to be sort of the compliance officer. The Middle East is messy. The divides are quite deep and long-standing. There's quite a big history of mistrust. So we have to watch and see if Beijing is going to do more than the symbolic photo up.
我认为中国在让这两个国家走到一起方面获益颇多。我认为现在没有太多其他国家可以做到这一点，包括美国。需要记住的是，中国与伊朗没有外交关系，已经有一段时间没有直接会晤伊朗了。因此，这对中国来说是一次很容易的胜利。我认为中国正在努力展示自己有成为更加大胆、多边国际参与者的潜力。我不确定中国是否有能力确保责任和成为合规官员。中东很混乱，分歧相当深远且历史悠久。存在相当大的互不信任历史。因此，我们必须观察并看看北京是否会做出超越象征性照片的更多努力。
Dr. Sanam Vacil from the Think Tank Chattam House.
来自智库查塔姆研究院的萨南姆·瓦希尔博士。
A 26-year-old Russian woman called Darya Tripurva has been charged with terrorism following Sunday's bomb attack in St Petersburg that killed the popular Russian pro-war blogger who went by the name of Ladlen Tatarsky with more than 500,000 followers on Telegram. He was part of an influential if-looser sortment of people who support the invasion of Ukraine but are critical of its commanders.
一名 26 岁的俄罗斯女子达里娅·特里普尔瓦因星期天在圣彼得堡发生的炸弹袭击案被指控恐怖主义罪名。这次袭击造成了广受欢迎的俄罗斯亲战博客主 Lalden Tatarsky 的死亡，他在 Telegram 上拥有超过 500,000 个追随者。他是一群支持入侵乌克兰但对其指挥官持批评态度的有影响力的人之一。
BBC Monitoring's Russia Editor Vitaly Shevchenko has been examining the phenomenon. The sound of Russian missiles being launched at Ukraine from one of countless videos posted by Russian Walker respondents. Known as Vaynegorye, they usually claim to have specialist military knowledge and access to Russian troops. Some are employed by Kremlin-controlled media, but others blog on social media, apparently without any links to any particular media outlet.
BBC Monitoring 的俄罗斯编辑维塔利·舍甫琴科一直在研究这一现象。这是俄罗斯“沃克”回答者（指在社交媒体平台上发布内容的人）发布的数不清的视频之一，展示了俄罗斯向乌克兰发射导弹的声音。他们通常声称拥有特殊的军事知识和接触俄罗斯部队的渠道，并受克里姆林宫控制的媒体雇佣。但还有一些人没有与特定媒体机构联系，只是在社交媒体上发布博客。
Yuriy Padalakka is one of the most popular of such bloggers. If Ukrainian states still exists after the war in any shape or form, that would mean a defeat for us. That's why the only question is where Russia's border with Poland would lie. That's it.
Yuriy Padalakka 是最受欢迎的博客作者之一。如果乌克兰国家在战争后仍以任何形式存在，这将意味着我们的失败。这就是为什么唯一的问题是俄罗斯与波兰的边界会在哪里。就是这样。
The emergence of such bloggers after the initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014 heralded a new era of war reporting in Russia. For many of them, supporting the war does not necessarily mean supporting the top brass. Here's how Rubar, a telegram channel with more than a million followers, reacted when the Defence Ministry states silent about a rapid Ukrainian counteroffensive in Kharkiv region in September last year.
2014年乌克兰初次入侵后，这些博主的出现预示着俄罗斯战争报道的新时代。 对于他们中的许多人来说，支持战争并不一定意味着支持高层军官。 见以下为例，超过一百万粉丝的电报频道Rubar是如何反应的，当时国防部对去年9月哈尔科夫地区乌克兰的快速反击保持沉默。
Dear Defence Ministry, we know that you see this and many other telegram channels which allow themselves to criticise the progress of the special military operation as traitors, vocators and fake news. You don't like us because we don't know the party line, but now is not the time to stay silent.
亲爱的国防部，我们知道你们看到了许多电报频道，它们允许自己批评特殊军事行动的进展，将这些批评者视为叛徒、煽动分子和虚假新闻。你们不喜欢我们是因为我们不知道党的路线，但现在不是保持沉默的时候了。
And it's criticism like this of the military authorities that makes war bloggers stand out from the all-pervasive Kremlin-controlled propaganda. But prominent Walker respondents employed by traditional pro-Kremlin media tend to be much more accepting of the official line. One of the most prominent of these is Alexander Kots, who works for the Komsomolska-Pravda tabloid and often reports from the front line. Responding to the killing of Lydlian Tatarski, Kots, similarly to Russian officials, pointed the finger of blame squarely at Ukraine.
这种批评军方机构的做法使得战争博客作者与普遍存在的克里姆林宫控制的宣传不同。然而，知名的沃克调查员，受传统亲克里姆林宫媒体雇用的人，往往更加接受官方立场。其中最著名的之一是亚历山大·科茨，他为《共青团真理报》工作，经常从前线报道。在回应对利德林·塔塔尔斯基的杀害时，科茨与俄罗斯官员类似，将指责的重点直接对准了乌克兰。
Earth must be set alight under every Ukrainian function, regardless of whether they are wearing a uniform. These people must be destroyed.
每一个乌克兰人都必须点燃地球，无论他们是否穿着制服。这些人必须被摧毁。
Much of the content posted by Walker respondents is extremely graphic. One of the most infamous examples is Greyzone, which posted footage of the apparent murder of a traitor who is a sledgehammer in November last year. Russian war reporters often call for the destruction of Ukraine as an independent state. For example, Yuri Kachinok has said the very Ukrainian identity must be destroyed. Even cancer can be cured, but Ukrainianism? Never. It's a type of satanism that can only be destroyed with one thing, fire, or consuming fire that will cleanse this filth. Kachinok has more than 400,000 subscribers on telegram.
沃克的回复者发布的大部分内容都非常具有图像性。其中最臭名昭著的例子之一是为灰区贴上的据称于去年11月份对叛徒使用大锤造成杀害的镜头。俄罗斯的战地记者经常呼吁摧毁乌克兰独立国家地位。例如，尤里·卡钦诺克曾表示必须摧毁乌克兰人的身份认同。甚至癌症都能治愈，但乌克兰主义呢？永远不可能。这是一种只能通过一件事，火焰或净化烈火，清除这种污秽的撒旦崇拜信仰。卡钦诺克在电报上拥有超过400,000个订阅者。
That was BBC Monitoring's Russia editor Vitaly Shevchenko, you're listening to News Hour from the BBC World Service.
你正在收听BBC世界服务的新闻小时，我是BBC监视的俄罗斯编辑维塔利·谢申科。
At 417 AM on 6 February, exactly two months ago, massive earthquake struck parts of southern Turkey and Syria. We now know that more than 50,000 people were killed in Turkey alone. In Syria, where the numbers are harder to quantify, it was almost 6,000.
在两个月前的2月6日上午4:17，土耳其南部和叙利亚部分地区发生了一次巨大的地震。我们现在知道，仅土耳其就有超过50,000人死亡。在叙利亚，由于数字难以量化，死亡人数也近6,000人。
There are people still trapped under rubble. I have a friend living in this apartment. His children were rescued from the top floor, may God give us a speedy recovery. I was sleeping when my wife suddenly washed me up. The quake was very severe, very scary. It took almost two minutes until the shaking stopped. With so many affected thousands of stories soon emerged of survivors trying to dig people out of the rubble of smashed buildings and upturned lives.
还有人被困在废墟下。我有一个住在这栋公寓里的朋友。他的孩子们被从顶层救出来了，愿上帝给我们快速恢复。当时我正在睡觉，突然被妻子摇醒。地震非常严重、非常可怕。摇晃一直持续了近两分钟。受灾人数如此之多，很快就涌现出成千上万的生还者努力挖出被破碎的建筑物和翻倒的生活中的人们的故事。
Three days after the quake struck, News Hour made contact with a man from Antakia, one of Turkey's worst hit cities, his name Hassan Aslan. Five of his close relatives died, and if he includes friends and acquaintances, he knows about 50 victims, although he did manage to dig a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old boy from the rubble, their members of his extended family.
地震发生三天后，《新闻时刻》与来自土耳其最受灾城市之一的安塔基亚的哈桑·阿斯兰先生取得了联系。他失去了五个亲戚，如果还算上朋友和熟人，他知道大约有50人在此次灾难中丧生。尽管如此，他成功地从废墟中挖出了两个七岁和九岁的男孩，他们是他的亲戚成员。
When we first spoke to him, Hassan was living in a plastic greenhouse with 20 family members and no blankets. The nights were getting down to minus five degrees. Third quake hit. I couldn't understand what's happening because it was all strong. My aunts and my aunts, my son and my aunts, grandchildren, they were in the collapse of building and most of them couldn't survive. In the next day, we tried to find them. We could take two little children. One of them is nine years old and the other one is seven years old. We could take them out of the rubble. We tried for about seven hours because their uncle was with us. They're okay now, but their father and their mother are dead. My aunts was taken out from rubble today. We are going to take her to the grave yard, maybe in an hour. She's also dead.
当我们第一次和哈桑交谈时，他和他的家人住在一个塑料温室里，有20个家庭成员，没有毯子。夜晚的温度降至零下五度。第三次地震来袭。由于地震非常强烈，我无法理解发生了什么。我的姑姑和我的侄子、外甥，孙子孙女，都在倒塌的建筑物中，其中大部分无法生存。第二天，我们试图找到他们。我们只能救出两个小孩子。其中一个是九岁，另一个是七岁。我们花了约七个小时的时间，因为他们的叔叔和我们在一起。他们现在很好，但他们的父母已经去世了。今天，我们把我的姑姑从废墟中救出来。也许在一个小时内我们要带她去坟地。她也已经去世了。
Two months on, life in the earthquake zone is less about the struggle to stay alive. There is food, there are tents and blankets, more of a mental challenge for people living in a sort of limbo with no apartment, no job and rubble all around. I got through to Hassan a couple of hours ago to hear how he's getting on.
两个月过去了，在地震区的生活不再是为了生存而奋斗。有食物、有帐篷和毯子，对于那些生活在没有公寓、没有工作而周围全是废墟的人来说，更多的是精神挑战。几个小时前我联系上了哈桑，想听听他现在的情况。
Things are a little bit better than before because we have tents here, we have heaters, we have blankets. So you and your sister in one tent? Yeah, I stay in one tent with my sister and my father and my mother stay in another tent. Staying in a tent is a difficult process for us because you can feel the wind outside, you can feel the rain, you can hear the rain and sometimes it can be cold. So it's a difficult experience for all of us.
现在情况比以前好一点，因为我们这里有帐篷、暖气和毛毯。那你和你妹妹在一起睡一个帐篷吗？是的，我和妹妹住在一个帐篷里，爸爸妈妈住在另一个帐篷里。对我们来说住帐篷是一个艰难的过程，因为你能感觉到外面的风，你能感觉到雨滴，也能听到雨声，有时会很冷。所以对我们所有人来说都是一个艰难的经历。
Do you have any idea how long you're going to be staying there in a tent? Oh, I have no idea honestly because we need new houses, it's not clear when we are going to have them or will we have them in the near future or not? We are not sure about it.
你有没有想过，你在帐篷里会住多久？哦，我真的不知道，因为我们需要新房子，不清楚什么时候能有房子，或者我们是否会在不久的将来拥有房子？我们对此不确定。
So you're in the garden of your father's house, is that right? Is that where the tent is pitched? Yeah, that's correct, that's correct. The family is together but in very different and difficult circumstances. They will think it's a slow, I can just see the lorries and the excavators they are carrying the rubble out of the city. It is what's happening in the city at the moment.
所以你在你父亲家的花园里，是吗？帐篷就在那里吗？是的，没错，没错。家庭关系紧张，处境困难。他们会认为进展缓慢，我可以看到卡车和挖掘机正在把垃圾从城市里运出。这是目前城市中发生的事情。
Slow, you've got no idea how long you're going to be in these circumstances but you are determined to stay. Yeah, I'm determined to stay here. I sometimes, I sometimes move to other cities and stay for a few days but I come back and I really want to live in my city because I was born here and I have been here for more than 30 years. So I want to stay here.
慢点，你不知道在这种情况下要待多久，但你决心留下。是啊，我决心留在这里。我有时候会去其他城市待几天，但我会回来，因为我想在自己的城市生活，我在这里出生，已经在这里生活了30多年了，所以我想留在这里。
Antacas is an historic city. We had beautiful old buildings here before, but I really like this city and it makes me feel good. It's a multicultural city. Antacas are very old and multicultural city. There are many people from different religions from different places of the world.
安塔卡斯是一个历史古城。以前我们这里有很多漂亮的老建筑，但是我真的很喜欢这个城市，它让我感觉很好。这是一个多元文化的城市。安塔卡斯是一个非常古老和多元文化的城市。来自世界不同地方的不同宗教信仰的人都有很多。
And what about daily life? You're an English teacher. You used to have lots of pupils. You had a busy kind of life. What do you do now during the day? What am I doing? I sometimes, I sometimes use the school. I meet my friends in the daytime. We empty our houses nowadays. Yeah, we are emptying them before they are demolished.
那你的日常生活怎么样？你是一名英语老师，以前有很多学生，生活很忙碌。现在你每天在做什么呢？我有时会去学校，有时会和朋友在白天见面。我们现在会清空我们的房子，因为它们即将被拆除。
But what about work? Are you still being paid? Yeah, we are being paid and as soon as the schools are open, we are going to start working of course.
那工作方面怎么样呢？你们还能领薪水吗？是的，我们还是有薪水的。当学校开放的时候，我们当然会开始工作。
Many buildings in your ancient city were destroyed, weren't they? It doesn't look anything like dead before. Yeah, more than half of the buildings are destroyed.
你们古城里的很多建筑都被摧毁了，是吗？现在它看起来完全不像以前那样发达了。是的，超过一半的建筑都被毁了。
Does it feel like the same city though? No, never, never. Because in the city center, there are nobody living there. And if you pass through the city at night, you can feel the loneliness there. It's really quiet and there is nothing inside the cities except for the lorries and some excavators.
它感觉像同一个城市吗？永远不会，绝对不会。因为在市中心，那里没有人居住。如果你在晚上穿过城市，你可以感受到那里的孤独。那里非常安静，除了卡车和一些挖掘机之外，城市里面什么都没有。
So what makes you want to stay so much? What makes you want to remain there in an attempt? We feel better here. I think my friends, my family, my family members, they are all here. So I don't want to leave this city because we have memories. I have many friends who died here. I have many relatives who died here. It really makes us feel depressed a little bit and desperate, especially when I see the houses. The record houses here we feel desperate, we feel hopeless. But I don't want to move to another city.
那么，是什么让你如此想要留下呢？是什么让你试图留在那里呢？我们在这里感觉更好。我想是因为我的朋友、家人、亲戚都在这里。所以我不想离开这个城市，因为我们有许多回忆。我有很多朋友和亲戚在这里去世了，这让我们感到有点失落和绝望，特别是当我看到那些破旧的房屋时。在这里，我们的希望和信心都消失了。但是我不想搬到另一个城市去。
But you've also said you're afraid of the future as well. What do you mean by that? Yeah, I'm afraid of the future with respect to the houses honestly. Because it may take more than five years or maybe ten years to have new good houses. It's really a long time. I mean, I don't know how many days or how many years we are going to leave in the tent. It makes me feel hopeless.
你也说过你也害怕未来。你是什么意思？是的，对于房子我真的害怕未来。因为可能需要五年甚至十年才能建造出新的好的房子。这真的是很长时间。我是说，我不知道我们还要住帐篷多少天甚至多少年。这让我感到绝望。
And how do you feel when you go to other places, you mention you leave, and go to the seaside, for example? When I go inside the tall buildings, I really feel afraid because of the fair of the earthquake here. It reminds you when you're going to a tall building, you're reminded of the collapse of buildings. Yeah, it reminds me the collapse of buildings. It reminds me the earthquake itself. But after staying there two or three days, I really feel better because I remember my old life and it makes me feel relaxed. It gives me hope.
当你到其他地方去时，比如去海边，你会感觉怎么样呢？我进高楼会感到恐惧，因为这里经常地震。当你去高楼时，就会想起建筑物倒塌的场面。是的，它让我想起建筑物倒塌。让我想起地震本身。但是待在那里两三天后，我真的感觉好多了，因为我回想起我的旧生活，这让我感到轻松。它给了我希望。
There's a huge destruction here in Antarctica. I can be one of the helpers. I want to be one of the helpers. It sounds like you have a responsibility to the city. Yeah, I have a responsibility. Yeah, and I'm going to stay here. Whatever happens.
在南极这里有巨大的破坏。我可以成为其中一位帮助者。我想成为其中一位帮助者。听起来你对这个城市有责任感。是的，我有责任感。是的，无论发生什么，我都会留在这里。
Earthquake survivor Hassan Aslan on why he is staying put in the southern Turkish city of Antarctica. Today is exactly two months since that quake, which killed more than 50,000 people. And that brings us to an end of this edition of NewsHour from me, James Kamara Sami, and the rest of the team here in London. Thanks very much for listening. I'll be back with you this time tomorrow, but for now, more of us. Goodbye.
地震幸存者哈桑·阿斯兰解释了他为什么选择留在土耳其南部城市安塔利亚。今天是那场地震发生后的两个月纪念日，那场地震造成了超过五万人死亡。感谢您收听本期的新闻时段，我是詹姆斯·卡玛拉·萨米，和我们在伦敦的团队一起为您服务。非常感谢您的聆听。明天我会再回来，但现在先和大家说再见。
NewsHour has been a download from the BBC. To discover more and our terms of use visit bbc.com/podcast.
NewsHour 是 BBC 的一个下载。如果想要了解更多信息或者了解我们的使用条款，请访问 bbc.com/podcast。