How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite
发布时间 2022-07-21 10:30:03 来源
The goal of your Kindle strategies, these like non-scalable hacks, they only exist to unlock the fire strategies, to unlock the things that could take you to millions of users. Pinterest, Airbnb, Tinder, Reddit, Canva, Hip-Camp, Fair, Eventbrite. What are these companies all having common? I'll tell you, Casey Winchers. As far as I know, Casey has worked with and advised more consumer companies on their product and growth strategies than anyone in the world. He's also really generous with his time and sets time aside to help founders and product leaders. I always learned so much talking to Casey, and I'm really excited for you to hear this episode.
你的 Kindle 策略的目标是像那些不可扩展的技巧一样，旨在解锁火力全开的策略，解锁那些可以让你达到数百万用户的方法。Pinterest、Airbnb、Tinder、Reddit、Canva、Hip-Camp、Fair、Eventbrite。这些公司有什么共同点？我来告诉你，Casey Winchers。 据我所知，在产品和增长策略方面，Casey 与更多的消费公司合作并提供建议，比世界上任何人都多。他还非常慷慨地投入时间，帮助创始人和产品负责人。每次与 Casey 交谈我都能学到很多，这次能让你听到这一期节目我很兴奋。
In our chat, we cover Casey's advice on making trade-offs as a product leader, justify non-sexy product improvements, the spectrum of product people, and how to level up your skills and wherever you are in the spectrum, new growth trends and tactics and strategies that he's seeing. He's got to focus on growth and his topic-wise, on growth strategy, and a bunch of other stuff. As a big bonus, we're actually going to be doing a live AMA with Casey in my newsletter Slack community. It's going to be an August 5th at 10am Pacific Time. And so if you'd like to ask Casey any questions, make sure to get into the Slack. Until then, enjoy this episode with Casey Winchers.
在我们的聊天中，我们涵盖了Casey关于作为产品负责人如何进行权衡取舍的建议，如何合理化不起眼的产品改进，产品人员的多样性，以及如何在这个领域提升你的技能。无论你处于哪个水平，我们还讨论了他所看到的新增长趋势、战术和策略。他专注于增长，以及与增长策略相关的诸多话题。作为一个大亮点，我们将在我的新闻社区的Slack频道中与Casey进行现场AMA问答。这活动将于8月5日上午10点太平洋时间举行。如果你想向Casey提问，请确保加入Slack。在此之前，享受这次与Casey Winchers的对话吧。
Hey, Casey Winners. What do you love about Coda? Coda is a company that's actually near and dear to my heart because I have to work on their launch when I was at Greylock. But in terms of what I love about it, you know, I love loops. And Coda has some of the coolest and most useful content loops I've seen. How the loop works is someone can create a Coda and share it publicly for the world. This can be how you create OKRs, run annual planning, build your own map, whatever.
嘿，Casey Winners。你喜欢 Coda 的什么呢？Coda 是一家让我十分关注的公司，因为我在 Greylock 工作时曾参与过他们的产品发布。但说到我喜欢它的原因，我对循环特别感兴趣。而 Coda 拥有一些我见过最酷和最实用的内容循环。这个循环的运作方式是，用户可以创建一个 Coda，并将其公开分享给全世界。这可以是你如何制定 OKR，进行年度规划，或者自己创建地图等等。
Every one of those Coda's can then be easily copied and adapted to your organization without knowing who originally wrote it. So they're embedding the sharing of best practices, scaling companies into their core products and growth, which is something I'm personally passionate about. I actually use Coda myself every day. It's kind of the center of my writing and podcasting operation. I use it for first crafts, to organize my content calendar, to plan a new podcast episode on so many more things.
这些 Coda 文档都可以很轻松地复制和调整，以适应你的组织，而不需要知道最初是谁编写的。这样，他们把最佳实践的分享融入到了公司的核心产品和发展中，而这正是我个人非常感兴趣的事情。我自己每天都在使用 Coda，它是我写作和播客工作的核心工具。我用它来进行初步创作、整理内容日历、规划新的播客节目以及很多其他的事情。
Coda's giving listeners this podcast $1,000 in pre-credit off their first statement. Just go to Coda.io slash Lenny. That's Coda.io slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by MixPanel, offering powerful self-serve product analytics. Something we talk a lot about on the show is how startups can build successful and amazing products. And relying on gut feeling is a really expensive way to find out if you're heading in the right direction, especially when you're raising money, because VCs don't want to pay the price for these kinds of mistakes.
Coda正在为听众提供一个特别优惠，通过这个播客可以在首个账单上获得1000美元的预扣金额。只需访问Coda.io/Lenny，这是Coda.io/Lenny。本期节目由MixPanel赞助，MixPanel提供强大的自助产品分析工具。我们在节目中经常讨论的一件事是，初创公司如何打造成功而出色的产品。只凭直觉来判断前进方向的成本很高，尤其是在融资时，因为风险投资人不愿意为这些错误买单。
That's why MixPanel will give you $50,000 in credits when you join their startup program. With MixPanel, startups find product market fit faster, helping you take your company for minimal viable product to the next unicorn. Access real-time insights with the help of their pre-built templates and know that at every stage, MixPanel is helping you build the confidence and curiosity for free. Apply for the startup program today to claim your $50,000 in credits at MixPanel.com slash startups within S. And even if you're not a startup, MixPanel is pricing plans for teams of every size. Grow your business like you've always imagined with MixPanel.
这就是为什么当你加入MixPanel的创业计划时，他们会给你提供50,000美元的使用额度。借助MixPanel，创业公司能够更快找到产品市场匹配点，帮助你从最小可行产品发展到下一个独角兽公司。通过他们预构建的模板获得实时洞察，每个阶段都知道MixPanel在免费帮助你建立信心和好奇心。今天就申请他们的创业计划，在MixPanel.com/startups页面领取你的50,000美元的点数。即使你不是创业公司，MixPanel的定价计划也适用于各种规模的团队。使用MixPanel，实现你一直梦想的业务增长。
Casey, welcome to the pod. I feel like every time that we chat, I leave with at least one new perspective that kind of blew my mind on product or growth, or even just the world. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation, mostly to selfishly extract as much knowledge out of your head as I can in the hour that we have together. And so with that, welcome. Very kind. Happy to be here. So you've worked at so many iconic companies and worked with so many iconic companies. It almost boggles the mind just looking at your LinkedIn, trying to scroll through LinkedIn and you have to click on see additional experiences.
Casey，欢迎加入我们的播客节目。我觉得每次和你聊天，总能让我从产品、增长，甚至整个世界中获得至少一种全新的视角，令我大开眼界。所以我非常期待今天的对话，希望在这一小时内尽可能多地从你那里汲取知识，非常感谢你来参加。很高兴来到这里。你在众多知名公司工作过，并且与很多知名公司有过合作，简直让人难以置信。看你的LinkedIn简历时，我都需要点击“查看更多经历”来了解。
And there's just so many places you've worked so many companies you've worked with. Could you just give listeners maybe a 10,000-foot view of your career arc through product and? Well, I started my career as an analyst at apartments.com on the marketing side. So it was my job to measure every channel for effectiveness in driving leads. These are things like SEO, AdWords, affiliate marketing, email. So once I got good at measuring that, I naturally started working on optimizing those channels directly.
在许多公司和地方工作过，可以简单地为听众描述一下您的职业生涯轨迹吗？
我职业生涯的起点是在apartments.com担任市场部分析师。当时我的工作是评估每个渠道在引导潜在客户方面的效果，比如搜索引擎优化（SEO）、AdWords广告、联盟营销和电子邮件推广。当我熟练掌握了这些渠道的效果评估后，我就开始直接优化这些渠道。
And then I started going to do re-user research and understand how the product could be better so that we could convert leads better. And it was at that point that I got the feedback from the company that I was this weird marketing and product hybrid. And they really know what to do with that because those were two totally separate departments. It wasn't until I got to GrubHub and it was the 15th employee. And they were like, dude, we don't care. Like as long as you grow how many people order food, I don't care if you work on marketing, I don't care if you change the product, do whatever will have results. We now call these roles growth, but that term didn't exist at the time. So I basically worked on growing the demand side of that business from Series 8 IPO. We ended up creating a product management function out of my team there. But for the first four years, we didn't have product titles either. That was kind of a newer idea also.
然后，我开始进行用户研究，试图了解如何改进产品，以便更好地转化潜在客户。在这个过程中，公司给了我反馈，说我像是一个奇怪的市场和产品混合体。他们不知道该如何处理这种情况，因为这两个部门是完全分开的。直到我加入GrubHub，成为第15名员工时，他们表示无所谓，只要能增加订餐人数，怎么做都可以，无论是做市场推广还是更改产品都行，只要有结果就好。现在我们称这些职位为"增长"岗位，但当时还没有这个概念。所以，我基本上是在从事增长业务需求的工作，从系列A到IPO。我们在那里的团队逐渐创建了产品管理职能，但最初四年里我们并没有产品职称，这也是一个比较新的想法。
It wasn't until I went to Pinterest that I was actually formally labeled a product person. I ended up leading the growth product team there. We basically had to rebuild the growth model of the business to reignite growth. So I was there from 40 million MAU to 150 million MAU. And it was around that time that I started doing some more advising with Airbnb on the demand side, with pocket. And then I went to a VC and in Greylock partners and worked with their companies on growth and scaling. And then I just independently started working as a full time advisor of companies like VempRite, Tinder, Thumbtack, Canva. And after doing that for a couple of years, VempRite opened this cheap product office role and they asked me to take it. So now that doing that for three years now, that's an excellent segue to our next little segment that I want to get into, which is partly your CPO role in the work that you do there.
直到我加入Pinterest后，我才被正式认定为一名产品人员。我最终领导了那里的增长产品团队。我们基本上需要重建公司的增长模型以重新激活增长。在那段时间，我见证了公司的月活跃用户数从4000万增长到1.5亿。然后，我开始更多地为Airbnb、Pocket等公司提供需求方面的建议。之后，我加入了Greylock Partners的风投团队，与他们的公司合作推动增长和扩展。后来，我成为了一名独立的全职顾问，为VempRite、Tinder、Thumbtack、Canva等公司提供咨询服务。经过几年的顾问工作，VempRite公司为我开设了首席产品官这一职位，并邀请我来担任。至今，我在这个角色上已经工作了三年。这也是引出我们下一小节的绝佳时机，我想深入探讨一下你的首席产品官角色及相关工作。
And also touching a bit on a bit of the writing that you've done. So you're currently a cheap product officer at VempRite, which is a company that I love. I have so many friends there and they're all amazing, such a big fan of the company. And I know a lot of listeners are maybe thinking about becoming CPO someday as a goal. And so I thought it'd be cool to chat through some of the challenges that you're having and some of the things you've learned in the role. Sure. Cool. Yeah. I'll be more specific. So one of the things that you mentioned that you're working on is thinking about trade-offs and being very explicit about trade-offs you're making, communicating why you made certain trade-offs, and then just generally communicating that upward. It's executives and across the company.
翻译如下：
还有一点是关于你写作的内容。你目前是VempRite的首席产品官，我非常喜欢这家公司。我有很多朋友都在那工作，他们都很出色，我是这个公司的超级粉丝。我知道很多听众可能把成为CPO作为一个目标，所以我觉得聊一聊你在这个职位上遇到的挑战以及学到的东西会很有趣。当然，没问题。我会更具体一点。你提到你正在处理的一件事情是关于如何考虑权衡，并明确说明你做出这些权衡的原因，同时向上级和公司内部做好交流。
So I'm curious just to hear what you've learned around how to communicate trade-offs and internal communication. Yeah. One of the things I found, especially during the pandemic at VempRite, where we weren't obviously hiring a lot of people, and we had lots of various issues come up, is that a lot of managers and leaders would just try to deal with issues on their own and not raise them or escalate them with me in particular. And some of these were really tough situations. So then later on, I'd ask why something went wrong or why we didn't achieve a goal. And I'd get some feedback from my team of like, hey, you don't understand the situation. This is really impossible. There's all these things going wrong. And then I respond like, yeah, of course, I don't understand this situation because you haven't told me about it.
我很好奇你在沟通权衡取舍和内部沟通方面学到了什么。是这样的，在疫情期间，我在VempRite发现一个现象，当时我们显然没有大量招聘，并且遇到了许多各种各样的问题。许多经理和领导者倾向于自己处理这些问题，而不是向我反映或升级问题。其中一些情况非常棘手。后来，我会问为什么事情出了问题或者为什么我们没有达到目标，我的团队反馈说：“你不了解情况，这真的很困难，有很多问题。” 然后我会回应：“没错，我当然不了解情况，因为你们没有告诉我。”
Like, how am I supposed to evaluate things fairly? If you don't let me know, it's really going on. So these people in my team thought that being a leader was handling it, the best they could given the circumstances. When, in many cases, the right way is to escalate the issue, so that perhaps I could help them change the circumstances. So the circumstances are in as dire. And if I can't change the circumstances, I'm at least aware of the circumstances and the explicit trade-off we've made to deal with that situation. And then I can help communicate that better to others across the company. And I can help evaluate the results with the proper context and do it more fairly.
我怎么才能公平地评价事情呢？如果你不让我知道实情，那就很难做到。我团队里的一些人认为，作为领导就是在现有条件下尽力处理问题。然而，很多情况下，正确的做法是将问题上报，这样我可能可以帮助他们改变现状，使情况不那么糟糕。如果我不能改变现状，至少我会对情况有所了解，并清楚知道我们为应对这种情况做出的权衡。这样，我就可以更好地向公司其他人传达这些信息，并能在适当的背景下更公平地评估结果。
So I find that in general, people just weigh under communicate upward inside of companies. And then they'll complain that executives are out of touch when they aren't telling executives what the executives need to know. So then when people inside a company do try to communicate upward, a lot of times they're so in the weeds that as an executive, I just don't understand what they're saying. And then when I ask questions, it's like, as an exec, I'm asking a question to another language. It's like, I don't know if you've ever seen oceans 12, but as a joke, they invite Matt Damon to this business meeting and they just talk in code as a prank on him. And that's what a lot of people on my team feel sometimes when they're talking to the executives. It's like, I don't even understand what these questions mean. Like it's like you're speaking another language.
总的来说，我发现公司里的员工往往对上级沟通得不够，然后又抱怨管理层不了解情况，但他们并没有告诉管理层所需的重要信息。因此，当公司内部人员尝试向上级沟通时，他们常常讲得过于细致，作为高管，我根本不明白他们在说什么。而当我提出问题时，就好像我用一种外语在提问。不知道你是否看过《十二罗汉》，有段情节是他们开玩笑地邀请马特·达蒙参加一个商务会议，并故意用暗语交谈，让他摸不着头脑。我团队里的人有时也有这种感觉，当他们和高管交流时，就好像听不懂这些问题是什么意思，就像是在说另一种语言。
So one of the ways I try to frame it to my team is like if you're not an executive, whatever you're working on, you're basically writing and telling a story. And when you talk to an exec about that story, you have to start with chapter one, which is, you know, what part of the company strategy are you working on? What metrics are you trying to improve? What assumptions are you making that are guiding, what you're building? And I find that many times when non-executives are presenting to execs, they'll start on like chapter six. So, you know, even if that part of the story is right, it's like a good story. You haven't earned the right to tell that part of the story yet because you skipped the first five chapters.
所以，当我向团队解释这一点时，我会这么说：如果你不是高管，不管你在做什么，你实际上都是在写故事、讲故事。当你向高管讲述这个故事时，你必须从第一章开始，也就是你正在做的工作与公司战略的哪个部分有关？你希望改进哪些指标？有哪些假设在指导你的工作？我发现很多时候，当非高管向高管汇报时，他们往往从第六章开始。即便那部分的内容是正确的，就像一个精彩的故事一样，你还未获得讲述那部分故事的资格，因为你跳过了前五章。
I've definitely seen people with the opposite problem as well, which I call like starting at the beginning of the time where, you know, you come into a meeting, you know, with the CEO or with the CFO or something and you basically spend like the first like 20 minutes re-explaining the company strategy or who are customers or something that everyone already knows. And then by the time you get to explaining new information, you've used up, you know, you're a lot of time. So I try to coach my team to be in the middle, right? Like don't start on chapter six of the story, but also like don't start with a textbook on the English language either. You want to, you want to find the last point in your story that would be completely obvious to the person you're telling the story to and then go from there to things that would be less obvious but that they can follow along with.
我确实见过相反的问题，这种情况我称之为“从头开始”。比如说，有人参加一个与CEO或CFO的会议，却在一开始的20分钟内，反复解释公司战略或者客户群体等大家都已经知道的信息。等到要讲述新的信息时，已经用掉了很多时间。所以，我试图指导我的团队要找到一个平衡点，不要一上来就讲故事的第六章，但也不要从解释英语教材开始。你需要找到一个对听众来说已经完全清楚的起点，然后从那里讲一些他们还不太清楚但可以理解的信息。
And it's, it's a lot of work to really dial that in across different types of people you're trying to communicate that story to because of course, upward communication isn't all that you're doing, right? You're trying to communicate that down to your team to individual engineers and designers and they're going to need to hear some very different things than say the CPO, the company or the CEO, the company. So it's a challenge I see quite frequently. Can you talk a bit about how you actually coach PMs on this? Is this like, in one-on-ones, you revisit a presentation they gave that could have been better? Is it at after a presentation, you pull them aside and talk through what they could have done better? How do you approach that?
这段话翻译成中文并简化后可以表达为：
"在不同类型的人群之间沟通故事是非常繁琐的，因为你不仅仅需要向上级沟通，还需要向团队、个人工程师和设计师传达信息。他们需要听到的内容和公司的CPO或CEO可能非常不同。这是我经常看到的一个挑战。你能谈谈你是如何指导产品经理去解决这个问题的吗？比如说，你会在一对一谈话中重温他们的演示，看看哪些地方可以做得更好？还是在演示结束后把他们叫到一边讨论改进的方法？你是如何处理这个问题的？"
Well, I think the best way to coach is actually to do it before the meeting. So I think there's a tendency in product management and product design to want to do meetings where there's kind of this big reveal and an ah-ha to the audience. And it's kind of the opposite of how you want to handle most of these situations. You want to do risk that meeting, not like make it a big successor fail moment. So there's a few things that I do. One is if there is a big presentation coming up or something like that. I try to run through it with the team pretending to be the other members of the audience that are going to be there.
我认为最好的指导方式是在会议前进行。产品管理和设计中常常会倾向于在会议上进行一次重大的展示，期待给观众带来一种“豁然开朗”的感觉。这其实与我们要处理大多数情况的方法相反。你应该尽量降低会议的风险，而不是把它变成一次重大的成败时刻。有几件事我会这样做，比如即将到来的重要陈述或类似情况时，我会和团队一起预演，假装自己是即将参加会议的观众成员。
So I'll say, okay, well, the CFO is going to ask about here is X. And you want to answer that question before it gets asked. What Julia or CEO is going to ask about is why? So you want to weave that into the early story and not like wait for her to ask. So you kind of role play the entire thing based on the difference. People that they're going to be communicating with or something I commonly say is that executive communication is actually executive's communication. You're communicating with individual executives that all have different styles and different concerns about the business or about the particular problem you're working on.
好的，我会这样说，首席财务官（CFO）可能会问的是X，你需要在对方提问之前就先回答这个问题。而朱莉娅或首席执行官（CEO）可能会问的是为什么，所以你要在开头阶段就把这个问题融入进去，而不是等她来问。你要根据不同的人物进行整个情景演练，因为他们有各自的风格和关注点。常说的一句话就是：高管沟通实际上就是高管的沟通。你是在和不同的高管进行交流，他们对业务或你正在处理的问题有各自不同的风格和关注点。
And you want to anticipate that. And if you don't have enough experience, say presenting to the CFO or the CEO, I as the two product officer do. So I can impersonate them and help you understand what they're going to care most about. The other thing that I push a lot of my team to do is have pre-meetings with some of those key individuals so that they're going to be less surprised in the meeting about what you're talking about. That you've gotten any major concerns brought to your attention before the big meeting. And that helps de-risk how poorly a meeting like that can go.
你需要对会议做好预判。如果你缺乏与首席财务官（CFO）或首席执行官（CEO）汇报的经验，我作为产品负责人可以帮你模拟他们的反应，帮助你理解他们最关心的是什么。我还常建议团队成员在大会议之前，提前与一些关键人物进行会前交流，这样在会议上他们对你的内容就不会感到太意外。在大会议之前，你可以提前了解到他们的主要关注点和担忧。这有助于降低会议出现意外结果的风险。
But so definitely at the individual presentation level doing that pre-meeting, what I'm working on a lot now is trying to be, trying to have more of a scaled approach to training this type of upward communication. And what types of frameworks, what types of structure tend to work, for event break, and making sure that everyone on my team is just really well versed in that, and comfortable in it. Because of course, confidence projection is a key part of these types of meetings as well.
在个人展示层面上，我现在主要在努力做的是在会前进行准备，同时尝试采用更大规模的方法来培训这种向上沟通的能力。我正在研究什么样的框架和结构适合于这一类活动，并确保我团队的每个人都能熟练掌握并自如运用这些内容。因为在这类会议中，自信的表现也是一个关键部分。
This is such an important advice that I think a lot of PMs don't recognize how important it is to prepare for important meetings like this. Just to give folks context, maybe that aren't doing the sort of thing when they're working at a larger company. How much time do you spend, or an ICPM should spend on preparing for these things, just to set a little bit of a reference point? Well, you know, it's an interesting question. Because I think different people have different styles on how they want to handle this.
这是一个非常重要的建议，我认为很多产品经理没有意识到为这样的重要会议做准备有多么重要。为了让大家更好地理解这个背景，尤其是那些在大公司工作时没有做过类似事情的人。你花多少时间，或者一个初级产品经理应该花多少时间来准备这些事情呢？仅仅是为了提供一些参考。嗯，这是个有趣的问题，因为我觉得不同的人在处理这些事情时有不同的风格。
I'd say the way my brain works in these situations, which I think is a little bit atypical, is I'm actually a little bit better if I am free-forming a lot of elements and just speaking from confidence in areas I know versus specifically trying to lay out every example at point I want to hit. I'm going to show up as more comfortable, I'm going to show up as more dynamic, and I'm going to be able to engage in a more thoughtful conversation. So for me, my approach to these sorts of things is I write a lot. I write a lot of notes, I write a lot of documents, and then in general, for any of these types of communications, I am just pulling from things I know deeply because I've written them down.
我觉得我的大脑在这些情况下运作的方式有点不太典型。我其实更擅长在我熟悉的领域，自由发挥和自信表达，而不是特意列出每个要点的例子。这样我会显得更放松，更有活力，而且能参与更深入的对话。对于我来说，我的做法是大量写作。我写很多笔记和文档，然后在这些类型的交流中，我只是从我写下来并深刻理解的内容中提取信息。
I've thought a lot about them, for a lot of other people, they really just need to spend a lot of time on prep to make sure they nail the communication they want to nail. And I found it requires a different amount of investment for different people on my team. So the point is not as much how much time you spend. It's how well do you really know the material and how well do you really know what your audience is going to care about with that material so that you are prepared for every question you might get?
我一直在思考这个问题，对很多人来说，他们需要花大量时间做准备，以确保他们能够准确表达出他们想要传达的信息。我发现，对于我团队中的不同成员来说，这需要不同程度的投入。所以，重点不在于你花了多少时间，而在于你对材料的了解程度以及你对观众可能关注点的了解程度，以便你能够做好准备，回答可能遇到的每一个问题。
So I'll give an example from Pinterest days. The primary way which was to you interface on any key strategic topic was product review, right? You'd go in and you'd talk to Bent, or CEO, and Jack, or head product. And you know, Ben and Jack had very different styles of communication. Jack in particular would very early on ask a few different data questions to get context on the problem. And if you as a product leader or an individual PM or an individual designer didn't know the answers to any of those, it cast doubt on the entire rest of that meeting because the team would be confident that you had all the right context to understand the problem.
让我用一个Pinterest时期的例子来说明。在面对任何关键战略主题时，主要的交流方式是产品评审。你会去和Ben（CEO）或Jack（产品负责人）讨论。你知道，Ben和Jack的沟通风格非常不同。特别是Jack，他通常一开始就会问几个不同的数据问题，以了解问题的背景。如果作为产品负责人、个别产品经理或设计师的你对这些问题不知答案，那么整场会议就可能会让人怀疑，因为团队需要确信你已经掌握了理解问题所需的所有背景信息。
So a lot of what I would coach my team on is, okay, I'm pretty confident Jack's gonna ask this question, then this question, then this question, based on the material I'm seeing from you. How well are you prepared to answer those questions? You know, different execs might be somewhat different in that regard. But if you haven't thought through all the questions that might be asked from the document that you're sharing or the presentation you're about to present, you're not prepared enough, right?
我会对我的团队进行很多这样的指导：好，我很有信心，杰克会先问这个问题，然后这个问题，再接着这个问题，这是基于我从你们那里看到的材料。你们准备好回答这些问题了吗？当然，不同的高管在这方面可能略有不同。但如果你没有深入思考可能被提问的问题，不论是来自你分享的文件还是要进行的演示，那你就准备得不够充分，对吧？
Like you need to know the entire universe of how that meeting can go. And that may take you dozens of hours. It might take you three hours. But the most important thing is that you've asked what possible questions can be asked. And am I prepared to answer all of those? Do I have all the data in front of me to answer all of those? Or because if I don't, the chances of like the meeting, you're having a negative outcome just increased dramatically.
就像你需要了解那次会议可能的发展情况。这可能会花费你几十个小时，也可能只需三个小时。但最重要的是，你需要提前思考可能被问到的问题，并准备好所有答案。我是否有足够的数据来回答这些问题？因为如果没有，会议出现负面结果的概率会大大增加。
I imagine some people are listening to this and they're like, holy shit, I need to spend this much time on preparing for meetings like this. But in my experience, that's exactly what you do need to do to be successful. And so this is real good and real talk about how long it takes to prepare for important meetings. Like the ones you're talking about. Absolutely. I mean, you know, for better or worse, the way that a lot of key decisions are made in psych companies are through these types of forums and meetings. And it's an extremely high leverage piece of time for a product manager or a product designer in terms of how much impact they can have. And if you are under preparing for those sorts of things, the chances of you being able to have the type of impact you want, to have the type of career growth you want, just go down dramatically.
我想，有些人可能在听到这段话时会感叹：“天啊，我需要花这么多时间来准备这样的会议。” 但根据我的经验，这确实是成功所必需的工作。这段话是真实而直接地谈论了准备重要会议需要多长时间。没错，你看的那些会谈有多重要。无论好坏，许多关键决策都是在这样的论坛和会议中做出的。对于产品经理或产品设计师来说，这是一段拥有极高影响力的时间。如果你没有充分准备这些事情，你想要的影响力和职业发展都会大大降低。
And I'm sure, you know, you and I have definitely made mistakes in our career in important meetings, you know, in the past. But I think, you know, one of the things that I really tried to do is learn from each one of those and make sure those types of issues wouldn't happen again. And now I feel like I have a pulse on, I know if I haven't done the work going into a meeting, that's going to make it have a more negative result. And now I'm pretty accurate, you know, and look sometimes, you just didn't have enough time and it is what it is. But now I know like, okay, I know I'm not quite prepared for this and it can go poorly as a result. And I know also when I've done the right prep and I'm ready for anything, whether it's a board meeting, you know, or a meeting with the executive team or a meeting with an external partner, right?
我相信，你知道，我们在职业生涯中曾在重要会议上犯过错误。但是，我一直努力从每次错误中吸取教训，确保那些问题不会再次发生。现在，我觉得自己对事情的掌控更好了，如果在会议前没有做好准备，结果可能会更糟。我现在很准确地知道，如果没有足够的时间准备，就要接受现实，可能会有不好的结果。但我也知道，当我做好了充分准备时，无论是董事会会议、与管理团队的会议，还是与外部合作伙伴的会面，我都能应对自如。
And I think that's what you're trying to build, you know, as any sort of product leader or PM or a product designer or researcher, is that intuition of like, I'm ready for this. I know everything that's going to come at me I'm prepared for any eventual outcome. And if you're not, then probably the answer has been more time to get ready. Speaking of spending more time, another topic that you shared with me that you're thinking about, thinking a lot about as a CPO is keeping the event break product simple while adding more and more functionality to make it more usable by more people in more use cases. And so I love to hear how you're approaching that because I know that something every single product faces eventually assuming they keep growing and surviving, keep adding more power.
我认为，作为任何产品负责人、产品经理、产品设计师或研究人员，你试图建立的就是那种直觉——我已经准备好了。我对即将发生的一切了如指掌，为所有可能的结果做好了准备。如果你没有这样的准备，那可能意味着你需要更多的时间来做好准备。说到花时间，你之前和我分享过的另一个话题是，作为首席产品官，你一直在思考如何在不断增加更多功能的同时保持活动管理产品的简单性，使其能够适用于更多人和更多使用场景。我很想知道你是如何解决这个问题的，因为我知道，假设每个产品都能持续增长和存活，它们最终都会面临为保持竞争力而不断增加功能的问题。
Yeah, you know, Scott Belsky, who's the chief product officer of Adobe, he has this concept of the product lifecycle. You know, you're probably familiar with but I'll explain it to your listeners, which is, you know, users flock to a simple product. The product takes users for granted and adds more features for power users and then users flock to the next simple product as a result. And, you know, I've done a lot of, you know, research and work on this problem and I found that there are a few different design hacks essentially that companies use to try to avoid this cycle. You know, one is, okay, if you build out more complex functionality, unbundle it over time. Like Facebook Messenger Uber Eats have done, right? You know, at Pinterest, we were heavy, we did a heavy investment in progressive disclosure, which is, you know, let's hide a lot of the more complex functionality until we make sure our users learn the really critical functionality and then we can kind of open up more of the full suite of the product.
当然，你知道，Scott Belsky 是 Adobe 的首席产品官，他提出了一个关于产品生命周期的概念。你可能已经很熟悉，但我还是为你的听众们解释一下。这个概念是，用户会被一个简单的产品吸引。然后，该产品理所当然地认为用户会一直留下，并为那些高级用户增加更多功能，结果用户会转向下一个简单的产品。我在这个问题上做了很多研究和工作，发现公司其实有一些不同的小技巧来尝试避免这种循环。比如说，如果你要开发更多复杂功能，可以随着时间的推移将它们拆分开，就像 Facebook Messenger 和 Uber Eats 所做的那样。在 Pinterest，我们投入了大量精力在渐进披露上，这意味着我们会把很多复杂的功能隐藏起来，直到确保用户学会使用那些真正重要的功能，然后再逐步开放更多产品的完整功能。
Then there's just, you know, proactive training, right? Like you can get on a video call with your customers or, you know, a phone call, much more common at enterprise obviously, or you might have a custom UI that goes away over time that's giving you the training meals. You can also segment experiences based on different user types. So certain users might get a very simple user experience and then some users might get the more complex one and there's different packages and, you know, interfaces that cleanly separate the two. Maybe that more complex experience also bundles in, you know, training. So what I found is that just none of these really worked that well for the event, right? Citario because we have different types of event creators that look across every possible level of complexity and sophistication. We have people that are putting on their first event and they expect five people to show up.
然后，还有主动培训，对吧？比如，你可以通过视频通话或电话与客户交流，电话在企业环境中显然更常见。或者你可能有一个定制的用户界面（UI），在随着时间的推移逐渐消失，这些都在给你提供“训练轮”。你还可以根据不同的用户类型来划分体验。某些用户可能会获得非常简单的用户体验，而一些用户可能会获得更复杂的体验，并且会有不同的套餐和界面将二者清晰地分开。也许那种更复杂的体验还包含了一些培训内容。所以我发现这些方法在我们的Citario活动中并不是很有效。因为我们有不同类型的活动创建者，他们在所有可能的复杂程度和成熟度上都有不同的需求。有些人正在举办他们的第一个活动，并且预计只有五个人会参加。
We have, you know, people putting on 100 events per year that like really know what they're doing and then users also shift from one of those categories to another or time. They can get more sophisticated as they build up their business. So segmentation doesn't really work that well. You know, progressive disclosure doesn't work that well either because in many of these cases, we never want certain types of users to find the more advanced stuff. It's just gonna confuse them. So we strive for this concept of what we call perceived simplicity, which is there are advanced features in the product and they are easily discoverable when you look for them. But they're effectively hidden if you're not looking for them and of course the majority of users aren't gonna ever look for them. So the advanced more complex areas of the product don't make the product harder to use for the majority who will never need that level of complexity.
我们每年举办100场活动的团队成员，他们非常专业。而用户也可能会从一个类别转向另一个类别，随着他们的业务发展，他们的能力也会提高。因此，简单的用户分类并不奏效。同样，逐步揭示功能的方式也不是很理想，因为在许多情况下，我们并不希望某些类型的用户接触到更高级的功能，因为这只会让他们感到困惑。因此，我们追求一种被称为"感知简化"的理念。这意味着产品中确实存在一些高级功能，并且在你寻找它们时很容易发现。但如果你不去找，它们就基本上是隐藏的。而大多数用户其实从未会去寻找它们。因此，这些高级复杂功能并不会增加产品对大多数用户的使用难度，因为他们不需要那么复杂的功能。
And you know, there are areas where we do this well and areas where we're still, you know, working on getting better, but that's really our aspiration. The company that I feel like has always done the best job of this is WhatsApp, where, you know, at its core, it's a chat app and it's really good at being a chat app. But I remember when I went to Brazil, all of a sudden I started receiving like voice messages and there was really easy to figure out how to use them and how to do them myself. When I needed to learn how to do video calls or phone calls, like it would take like less than a second to figure out how to use the more advanced stuff. But it's effectively kind of hidden if you're not looking for it.
你知道，在某些方面我们做得很好，而在另一些方面，我们仍在努力改进，但这确实是我们的愿望。我觉得始终在这方面做得最好的是WhatsApp。它本质上是一个聊天应用，而且在这方面做得非常出色。我记得当我去巴西的时候，忽然开始收到语音信息，而且很容易就能学会如何使用和发送。需要学习如何进行视频通话或语音通话时，基本上不到一秒钟就能搞定那些更高级的功能。不过，如果你不刻意去找，这些功能实际上是隐藏的。
That's, you know, what we aspire to at Eventbrite and you know, in some case we're doing well in some cases we definitely have some work to do. Is there an example of a win in that direction in the Eventbrite product that you're proud of using this model or even something that's like, oh man, this is really broken? Yeah, we've definitely had some wins here on the marketing side of our products. One of the bigger investments we've made recently is our creators do a lot of their own marketing to try to get people to come to their events and transact on Eventbrite in the process. But our event creators, you know, they're not professional marketers, right? They try to figure these tools out.
这就是我们在Eventbrite所追求的目标。有些方面我们做得不错，当然也有一些需要改进的地方。能否举一个使用这个模式在Eventbrite产品中取得的成功案例，或者有没有出现过让你觉得“哦天，这真是个大问题”的情况？是的，我们确实在产品的营销方面取得了一些成功。最近我们做出的一项较大投资是帮助活动创建者，他们往往需要自己进行营销，以吸引人们参加他们的活动，并在此过程中选择Eventbrite。但我们知道，这些活动创建者并不是专业的营销人员，他们需要摸索如何使用这些工具。
So we built a product that allows them to automate their Facebook advertising to get better results, you know, supercharged by our data. And the products working really well, but we found is that there are certain segments that want to geek out on this a little bit, right? They want to figure out all the different target segments and you know, optimize their creative and then there are many creators who just kind of want to done for them. So we've been able to build some interfaces where the default is like super simple. We'll handle the targeting for you. We'll handle the creative. And then hey, here's an on ramp. If you want to get a little bit more sophisticated and do more of this yourself, so that's an area where I wouldn't say we've like perfected it, but we've now really understood those different types of users and have easy pass for both of them to be successful.
所以，我们开发了一款产品，帮助用户自动化他们的Facebook广告，以便获取更好的效果，这些效果是由我们的数据来大幅提升的。产品运行得非常好，但我们发现有一部分用户群体对这些功能非常感兴趣。他们希望自己去探索不同的目标群体，并优化他们的创意内容。但是也有很多创作者希望这些工作可以直接有人代劳。所以，我们设计了一些界面，默认设置非常简单：我们会为你处理目标受众和创意内容。如果你想要更深入地操作，我们也提供了一个入口，让你能自己动手做得更复杂一些。虽然不能说在这个领域我们已经做得完美，但我们现在对不同类型的用户有了更清晰的理解，并为他们的成功提供了便捷的途径。
So I'm really happy with that. Awesome. Another topic that you wrote about that kind of touches on the stuff we were just talking about is just to find non-sexy product improvements, things like stability, performance, developer, velocity, things that as a PM leader, you're just like, nah, nah, nah, let's just, the default is less you out later, we got a dark frickin metrics, we got to drive growth. And you got some really interesting insights on how to how you think about justifying these sorts of things and so I'd love to hear that from you. You know, the idea is that some of the most impactful projects that product teams can work on at scale, you know, not early stage startups per se, but at scale are the hardest to measure.
我对此感到非常高兴，真棒。另一个你提到的话题与我们刚刚讨论的内容有些相关，那就是寻找那些不那么吸引人的产品改进，例如稳定性、性能和开发效率等。作为一名产品管理主管，你可能不怎么关注这些，因为默认的重点通常是推动我们关注的关键指标和用户增长。不过，你对如何为这些不那么显眼的改进进行合理化有一些非常有趣的见解，我很想听你分享。实际上，一些对大规模产品团队最有影响力的项目，往往是那些难以衡量的项目，虽然它们不一定适用于初创公司，但在大规模的团队中却至关重要。
And because of that, they just get chronically underfunded. You know, it's that old adage what gets measured gets managed, right? So for things like user experience, or performance, or developer velocity, or just a product area that's deemed unsexy, like growth used to be back in the day, you know, I walk through some examples of a few tactics that work to get around this problem, building custom metrics to show the value, being able to run small tests that prove the worth wellness of the investment, creating some team principles that make sure you don't ever kind of forget about these important elements that can retune the long run.
由于这个原因，他们总是长期资金不足。你知道的，常言道“可测量的才可管理”，对吧？所以对于用户体验、性能、开发者效率，或者像过去那些被认为不太吸引人的产品领域，比如增长等方面，我会介绍一些有效的策略来解决这个问题。可以建立自定义指标来展示其价值，进行小规模测试来证明投资的价值，还可以制定一些团队原则，以确保你不会忘记这些在长期中可以重新调整的重要元素。
And also just how to use experiments to build buy in at the broader level. And you know, one of the main takeaways besides some of those tactics in being successful here is that you have to get a team to buy in to this. You can't really do a lot of this work alone, right? So if you're a PM, like you want to be approaching this from a, well, my engineering manager and my design leader also bought in that we need to, you know, work on performance or, you know, we've all aligned that the user experience is not going in quite the direction we want and we want to, you know, head some problems off. That may not, you know, improve metrics today, but, you know, could certainly decline metrics, you know, tomorrow.
翻译为中文并简化为易读的表达：
而且还要学习如何利用实验在更广泛的层面上建立认同感。你要明白，除了成功的一些策略外，一个主要的关键点是要让团队对这种方法产生认同。因为你一个人无法完成这么多工作，对吧？所以，如果你是产品经理，你需要这样做：让你的工程经理和设计主管也支持提高性能，或是大家一致认为用户体验没有朝着我们预期的方向发展，我们需要提前解决一些潜在问题。这些措施可能不会立刻改善指标，但却可以避免指标在未来下滑。
And if you can get a small team, you know, what two, three people aligned on the importance of something that's deemed unsexy, it's, it's a lot easier to start to build this game plan around, you know, metrics or writing small tests or, you know, structuring OKRs to not only prioritize this work, but to show some really massive impact in which could then get the rest of the company much more excited to make investments themselves. So what I'm hearing is step one is just get your kind of lead peer leaders aligned behind something that may not obviously be something your leaders want you to do. Is that right? Absolutely. Yep.
如果你能找到一个小团队，比如两三个人，并让他们认同某个被认为“不热门”但很重要的事情，那么就更容易在此基础上制定计划，比如围绕一些关键指标、制定小型测试、或者结构化地设定目标与关键成果（OKR）。这样不仅可以优先处理这些工作，还能展示出显著的影响力，从而让整个公司变得更有兴趣进行投资。所以，我的理解是，第一步就是让你的核心同伴领导群体认同某件事情，即使这件事情可能不是领导们显而易见想要你做的，是这样吗？完全正确。对。
This episode is brought to you by Wimzicle. When I asked product managers and designers on Twitter, what software they use most? Wimzicle is always one of the most mentioned products. And the users are fanatical. Wimzicle is built for collaborative thinking, combining visual, text, and data canvases into one fluid medium. Distributed teams use Wimzicle for workshops, whiteboarding, wireframes, user flows, and even feature specs. And that includes thousands of built-in icons and a rich library of templates.
本集节目由Wimzicle赞助。当我在推特上询问产品经理和设计师们他们最常用的软件时，Wimzicle总是被提到最多的产品之一，其用户非常狂热。Wimzicle是为协作思维打造的，将视觉、文字和数据画布结合为一个流畅的媒介。分布式团队使用Wimzicle进行工作坊、白板讨论、线框图、用户流程，甚至是功能规格设计。这其中包括数以千计的内置图标和丰富的模板库。
See why product teams at leading companies call Wimzicle a game changer? Visit www.wimzicle.com slash Lenny to have my own templates added to your account when you sign up. That's www.wimzicle.com slash Lenny. Is there anything else that you think is really valuable, powerful, effective, and just getting folks to getting your leaders to basically go along with some that maybe isn't going to move metrics? Or is that the core of it? Well, yeah, I mean, definitely it's hard when you can't create a metric that they can understand.
了解为什么顶尖公司的产品团队称Wimzicle为“游戏规则改变者”？访问www.wimzicle.com/Lenny，在注册时我们会将我的模板添加到你的账户中。网址是www.wimzicle.com/Lenny。还有其他你认为非常有价值、有力、有效的方法，可以让领导支持那些可能不直接提升指标的事情吗？或者这就是核心问题所在？确实，当你无法创造一个他们能理解的指标时，这会很困难。
I think the other area to think about is when you're an early stage company, everything you're doing is trying to drive upside. Like trying to drive growth in some way could be short-term or long-term, but you're trying to drive real growth for the business. But then when you've actually built a real business, a lot of times people are still in that same mode, which is everything is trying to add more growth on top of what we've already got. But when you're at scale, you can actually lose what you've built.
我认为另一个需要考虑的方面是，当你是一家初创公司时，你所做的一切都是在努力推动上升空间。无论是短期还是长期增长，你都在努力为企业带来实质性的增长。但是，当你已经建立起一个成熟的业务后，很多人仍然停留在初创时的思维模式中，继续努力在已有基础上增加更多的增长。然而，当你达到规模化时，其实有可能会失去你已经建立的东西。
So trying to help whether it's executives or just your manager understand that this thing we've got, whether it's a high conversion rate or good engagement on the teacher, it could go away if we don't do these other things. And here's what it would look like if that goes away. That can be incredibly powerful. I think we were fortunate at Pinterest in this regard in that we were a fast growing startup that stopped growing due to some changes in the market related to Facebook.
所以试图帮助高管或你的经理理解，我们现有的高转化率或良好的用户互动可能会消失，如果我们不采取其他措施的话。并且如果这些消失了，情况将会变成这样。这种沟通可能非常有影响力。我认为我们在Pinterest算是幸运的，因为我们是一家快速成长的初创公司，但由于市场变化，特别是与Facebook相关的变化，我们的增长停滞了。
And then actually once we had switched to growing primarily through SEO, there was an algorithm change that severely impacted our growth at one point in time. So that helped the company build more intuition of like, we're not guaranteed the gains from all the things we've built in the past. We need to do things to protect them. And protecting what we've got actually is increasingly important once you build scale because now you've built something really valuable already.
然后，当我们转向主要通过SEO来增长的时候，有一次算法的改变严重影响了我们的增长。这使公司开始意识到，我们不能保证过去所取得的成就会一直带来收益。我们需要采取措施来保护这些成果。一旦你达到了一定的规模，保护已有的成果就变得越来越重要，因为此时你已经构建了一些非常有价值的东西。
And yes, we want to make it more valuable of course. But it's hard to make it more valuable if you're eroding some of the gains you've already built. So that's another element that I think can be pretty impactful. In your post on this topic, you have an awesome chart of product market fit over time and illustrating the point you just made that it doesn't last.
当然，我们希望让它更有价值。但是，如果你在侵蚀已经取得的一些成果，那就很难提高价值。这是我认为可能会产生重大影响的另一个因素。在你关于这个话题的帖子中，有一张很棒的图表，展示了产品市场契合度随时间的变化，并说明了你刚才提到的要点：它并不会持久。
And you have to kind of keep iterating to keep your product market fit like you're by default falling behind if you're not continuing to push their rate. Yeah, I think the concept is user expectations just continue to go up every day, right? In terms of their expectations on user experience, on the value that they expect your product provide, but also the competitive landscape in the market continues to get better.
如果你不持续推动产品的发展，那么你就会自动落后于市场。因此，你需要不断调整和改进以保持产品的市场契合度。用户的期望每天都在提高，他们对用户体验和产品价值的期望值不断上升。同时，市场竞争环境也在不断优化。
So yeah, if you're not continually pushing to make your product better, your user experience better, your latency better, then you're eventually not necessarily tomorrow, but maybe in a year, maybe in five years. You might find yourself fall out of product market fit entirely. And that's a really dangerous place to be because then it's gonna take a long time to figure that out and make adjustments and then you probably have more technical debt to clean up to be able to get back to where you need to be, where the market has reached in terms of expectations. So just doing work to make sure you never get in that situation is extremely valuable in my opinion. It's something that I think a lot of teams forget about.
所以，如果你不持续努力提升你的产品、用户体验和响应速度，那么可能不是明天，但也许是一年后，也许是五年后，你会发现自己已经完全失去了产品市场契合度。这是一个非常危险的境地，因为要弄清原因并进行调整会花很长时间，你可能还需要清理更多的技术债务，才能赶上市场的期望。所以，努力工作以确保永远不陷入那种境地是非常有价值的。这是我认为许多团队容易忘记的事情。
I think you're gonna create nightmares for a lot of founders listening to this right now. That's not the intention, but. It's a, no, it's a, it's a kick in the butt. Another post that I definitely wanted to chat about, maybe your spiciest post, maybe I'm curious if there are others, is around operations team, product ops and generally ops people. And yes, point that you made that ops is often a sign of inefficiency on a product team because in theory, a lot of the roles should be done by software eventually. I'd love to unpack this into your take on this.
我认为你可能会让很多正在听这个的创始人感到担忧。虽然这并不是我的本意，但确实是一种警示。我还想要讨论另一篇可能是你最具争议性的帖子，或者我好奇是否有其他类似的帖子，是关于运营团队、产品运营和一般运营人员的。你提到，运营通常是产品团队效率低下的一个标志，因为理论上，许多角色最终应该由软件来完成。我想深入了解一下你对此的看法。
I think the, I originally got the idea for the post in that I had written another essay on MarTech and how MarTech to be really successful. It's really got to target engineers more so than marketers and that a lot of MarTech businesses just are very good businesses. And I think I got an invite to speak at a MarTech conference to a bunch of marketers about this post. And it's like, well, that sounds like a terrible idea. Basically telling a bunch of marketers that, with their investing in isn't that important and that they're not the most important target customer.
我最初想到要写这篇文章，是因为我之前写过一篇关于MarTech（营销技术）的文章，探讨了如何让MarTech真正成功。这其中一个关键点是MarTech更应该针对工程师，而不是市场营销人员，因为很多MarTech公司本质上就是非常好的企业。后来我收到一个邀请，去一个MarTech会议上对一群市场营销人员讲这篇文章的内容。我觉得这是个很糟糕的主意，因为这基本上是告诉这些营销人员，他们所投资的东西并不是那么重要，而且他们也不是最重要的目标客户。
And I remember reading something about the conference that was like a conference for the growth of the marketing operations professional. And then I was like, oh no, that's not what I want in the industry at all. Like having marketing ops means you suck at marketing. And obviously that's a bit of hyperbole. I'm not against the concept of a marketing ops role or a product ops role, we have a product ops team at Eventbrite. But as someone who ran a double digit million marketing budget at GrubHub without marketing ops because we invested in automation and we invested in process, it scares me when the first tactic people to go to is to add people to help scale.
我记得我读到过一个关于会议的内容，这个会议好像是为市场运营专业人员的成长而设的。当时我就想，哦不，这完全不是我想要在这个行业中看到的。仿佛设立市场运营部门意味着你的市场营销很差劲。当然，我这么说有点夸张了。我并不反对设置市场运营或产品运营的职位，我们在Eventbrite也有一个产品运营团队。但作为一个在GrubHub管理过数千万美元市场预算而没有使用市场运营的人员，我们通过投资自动化和流程来实现目标，所以当人们首要考虑的策略是增加人手以实现扩展时，这让我感到有些担忧。
There's nothing wrong with people. Obviously there's nothing wrong with operations people. The thing I have a problem with is normalizing ops as a distinct stable function where operations roles are amazing and how we utilize them at Eventbrite is their explicit job is to go find inefficiencies and build process or software to root out that inefficiency. So then they can go find other places to be more valuable. When you say, oh, their job is to do this manual process long term, that's where I get super concerned because you're not rooting out efficiency and how you build your company.
没有人有问题。显然，运营人员没有问题。我所关注的，是将运营作为一个独立稳定的职能进行常态化管理。在Eventbrite，我们充分发挥运营角色的优势，他们的明确任务是去寻找低效之处，并通过建立流程或软件来消除这些低效。这样一来，他们就可以去其他地方创造更多价值。如果你说他们的工作是长期进行一些手动流程，这让我很担心，因为这样并没有提高效率，也没有提升公司发展的方式。
And that's where I feel like a lot of this can go if you're not careful. Intercom has a really good blog post on this from a while back around their business operations team. And they basically have up front in that post say, the goal of business operations to not exist. And that's, I definitely very much agree with that. So I think in general functional ops roles, whether it's product ops or marketing ops or whatever, they're a hack to deal with some sort of functional issue on your team.
如果不小心，事情可能就会发展到这种地步。Intercom曾经发布了一篇非常好的博文，讲述他们的业务运营团队。在那篇文章的开头，他们明确地表示，业务运营的目标是让其自身消失。我非常赞同这种观点。我认为，无论是产品运营、营销运营还是其他职能运营角色，通常都是为了处理团队中某些功能性问题的一种权宜之计。
And it's totally okay to have functional issues. You know, startups are gonna have functional issues all over the place. But if the way they deal with that functional issue is by building larger and larger operations teams and roles, that's basically exacerbating inefficiency issue, a functional issue, it's not fixing it. It's like, it's a form of empire building and in general empire building something I don't have a lot of tolerance for.
这句话的大意是：“有功能性问题是完全可以理解的。创业公司在各个方面都会遇到功能性问题。但是，如果他们处理功能性问题的方式是通过组建越来越庞大的运营团队和角色，那实际上是在加剧效率低下的问题，而不是解决它。这就像是一种扩张势力的行为，而对于扩张势力这类事情，我一般没什么耐心。”
So you're making more of a function unable to operate without human invention by saying the goal is to scale up marketing ops or product ops, whereas what the goal should be is let's use our brains to run experiments to make us more functional with less people, we're more efficient, we can add more value to the customer and to the business. And if that means, you know, I don't actually need to have this product operations job in a year, that's awesome.
所以，当你说目标是扩大营销运营或产品运营时，其实你是在让某个功能变得无法在人类创造之外运作。而真正的目标应该是，我们应该用头脑去进行实验，使我们的团队在人员更少的情况下更具功能性和效率，从而为客户和企业带来更多价值。如果这意味着一年后我实际上不再需要这个产品运营的职位，那也很棒。
And guess what, if you've shown, you've done a really great job at rooting out inefficiencies, every part of the company's gonna want you to do some other job. And if that job is no longer valuable because you've done such a good job eliminating the need for it. So there isn't this real concern that I'm gonna lose my job by being too effective at it. It's like, no, you're gonna show that you're just awesome at many types of jobs that, you know, product leaders or marketing leaders care about. So that's my perspective. I love that. And this happened a lot at Airbnb, a lot of amazing office people ended up moving into the roles once the role was not necessary, or they just wanted to do some else and clearly people wanted them on their team because they were killing it.
你知道吗，如果你展示出了自己在消除低效方面做得非常出色，公司里的每个部门都希望你去做其他工作。而如果某个工作因为你出色的表现而不再需要，也不用担心因为太有效率而失去工作。这说明你在许多工作上都很出色，比如产品管理或市场营销等领域的领导者关心的工作。所以这是我的观点，我很喜欢这样的情况。这在Airbnb经常发生，许多优秀的办公室员工在他们的岗位不再必要后，转到了其他岗位，或者他们只是想做点别的。显然，大家都希望这样优秀的人在他们的团队中。
A deep. One last question about the CPO role and then I want to shift a bit to just like product management and growth. What is the job of a CPO for folks that are just like, what the heck, what is this thing? What do you do all day? And then what does it take to get there? Just like what should people work on most if they're trying to get to CPO someday? So, you know, first off, when you think about what's the job, you know, the way I think about it is, I'm responsible for leading and facilitating the development of products and features that deliver value for event rights customers that will translate into value for the business. And each of those words were chosen pretty carefully.
首先，我们来谈谈CPO（首席产品官）的工作。对于那些不太了解这个职位的人来说，CPO到底是什么呢？你每天都在做些什么？如果有人想要成为CPO，他们应该重点关注哪些方面？
首先，关于CPO的工作，我认为我的职责是领导和促进产品和功能的开发，这些产品和功能需要为用户带来价值，并最终为公司创造价值。而这里每一个词的选择都是经过仔细推敲的。
Now, in terms of the scope of the function, a CPO role can lead a few different subfunctions. You know, in my case, I lead product management, product design, research and growth marketing, but you know, different roles have kind of some or not as many of those. It can be pretty custom depending on the size of the company and what the leaders skill sets are. To talk a little bit more depth about like the role, I think it's my job to make sure event rights uses the best possible product strategy based on the information we have that we can adjust that strategy as we learn and continue to build, you know, that V-back loop.
现在，以职位范围来说，首席产品官（CPO）的角色可以领导多个不同的子职能。在我这种情况下，我负责产品管理、产品设计、研究以及增长营销。但在其他公司，这些职能组合可能有所不同，可能会包含其中的一部分或更少。这通常取决于公司的规模和领导者的技能。再深入谈谈这个角色，我认为我的工作是确保我们利用现有信息制定最佳的产品策略，并在学习过程中不断调整和优化该策略，形成一个有效的反馈循环。
It's also my job to define and consistently improve the process through which we set our product strategy, how we prioritize projects, how we execute on them to make sure we're delivering, you know, that value to our customers, we're delivering those tangible business results. And to do that in a way where the rest of the company understands it and is able to participate in it as well. So this is things like identifying bottlenecks that prevent us from delivering, you know, value or quality or doing that at the detriment of speed, working with people across the company to remove those bottlenecks, making sure people outside of development are aware of what we're building, participating in the development and feedback of what we're building as well as in helping deliver that, you know, for like a GTM perspective.
我的工作还包括定义和不断改进制定产品战略的流程，例如如何对项目进行优先级排序，如何执行项目，确保为客户提供价值并带来实实在在的商业成果。同时，这个过程要让公司其他成员也能理解并参与其中。这包括识别阻碍我们提供价值或质量的瓶颈，避免快速开发时出现不良影响，与公司各部门合作消除这些瓶颈，确保开发人员之外的人了解我们正在构建的内容，参与产品的开发、反馈以及帮助从市场策略角度进行交付。
And last but not least, and we've talked a little bit about this earlier, you know, training the team on what it means to be an effective product manager, product designer, user research, et cetera, ad event rate, and then of course, hiring people who can augment our existing team on everything that's mentioned. So, you know, I'm accountable for what we build driving value for the business. And there's of course gonna be many times where what we build doesn't end up driving value. You know, it's hard to predict sometimes, but it's my job to kind of improve that conversion rate and the magnitude of impact over time, you know, might not be that everything we build over is value, but I want most of it too.
最后一点也是非常重要的一点，我们之前稍微提到过，就是对团队进行培训，让他们明白如何成为有效的产品经理、产品设计师、用户研究员等。除此之外，还要招聘能够在上述方面增强我们现有团队实力的人才。我负责确保我们开发的产品能为公司带来价值。当然，也有不少时候我们的产品可能达不到预期的价值。要预测这一点有时确实很难，但我的职责就是逐步提高这种成功的概率和影响的深度。虽然不是我们开发的每一个产品都能实现价值，但我希望大部分能做到。
And I want the impact of that value to be higher and higher over time. So, you also asked about what it takes to get to the CPU role. And I think my journey's been more irregular than most people you probably talked to. You know, product management, when I started my career, you know, it was all waterfall. It was built around massive releases. It was a totally different job from what we do now. Marketing was a lot more, you know, agile in the lower case sense of agile. And it mapped to my mind better as someone who's like really influenced, you know, by the book, The Goal.
我希望这种价值的影响随着时间的推移越来越大。你也问过，如何才能晋升到产品总监（CPU）这个职位。我想我的职业道路可能比你们谈到的大多数人的都要不寻常。你知道，在我职业生涯开始的时候，产品管理是完全采用瀑布模式的，它围绕着大批量的版本发布构建。这和我们现在所做的工作完全不同。市场营销那时候更强调敏捷，但在某种意义上比较低调。这更符合我的思维方式，尤其是受到《目标》这本书的影响。
So, I think the tangible pieces of advice to get to this level that may be helpful is, I always focused on where I thought there was leverage. I wanted to learn everything I could and focus on the things that had a big impact regardless of the org structure or the career path that meant. I wanted to really have a deep understanding of the entire business. So, I knew just what was worth focusing on to help the business. I think one of the things that's different about being a cheap product officer versus, you know, other product roles is how much of a company leadership role it is versus a functional leadership role. You're expected in this role to optimize for the entire company, even at the expense of what's good for your team. So, you really have to learn how to optimize for company first. That's like a key thing to learn that I think new executives can struggle with.
我认为一些实用的建议可以帮助你达到这个水平。首先，我总是关注我认为有杠杆作用的地方。我想学习尽可能多的东西，并专注于那些产生重大影响的事情，而不考虑组织结构或职业发展的限制。我希望深入理解整个业务，这样我就知道值得关注的是什么，以帮助企业发展。我认为担任首席产品官与其他产品岗位的不同之处在于，它更像是一个公司领导角色，而不仅仅是一个职能领导角色。在这个职位上，你需要为整个公司优化，即使这可能会牺牲你团队的利益。所以，你必须学会如何优先考虑公司的整体利益。我认为这是新任高管可能面临的一个重要学习挑战。
And what advantage I think I had is, I've basically been working with the executive since my first job at departments.com. So, I learned to speak their language and understood what they cared about pretty early in my career. And, you know, this is a really important element. Assume that questions from them are them trying to learn versus them assuming you don't know something and testing you about it. I find that a lot of people get intimidated by executive questions when the executives just trying to understand things. And then that changes the interaction you can have. The other element that served me well was just refusing to specialize. I thought if I could learn all the skills that would allow me to combine them to work on the most important things. First, it's only work on the thing I knew how to work on.
翻译成中文并用易读的方式表达：
我认为我拥有的一个好处是，从我在departments.com的第一份工作开始，我就一直在和高管们共事。所以，我很早就学会了用他们的语言沟通，并理解他们关心的事情。这是一个非常重要的要素。请假设他们提的问题是因为他们想学习，而不是因为认为你不知道某些事情而在考验你。我发现很多人会因为高管的问题而感到紧张，但其实高管只是想了解情况。这样理解后，你和他们的互动就会有所不同。
另一个对我帮助很大的因素是，我拒绝专攻某一领域。我认为如果我能学会所有的技能，就可以将它们结合起来，处理最重要的事情，而不是仅仅处理我已经会做的事情。
And that definitely led to slower visible progress in terms of career growth or titles. There was a much faster path to the true executive role because I could speak better with CEOs about more topics than most of my peers. Obviously, this is all my individual experience. There are many paths to get to this type of level, but those are some things that work for me. That was such an incredible definition and so much good advice there. And this is a good segue to another area that you have a really interesting insight on around the spectrum of product people. When I think of UI, I think of two by twos and this is I think just a spectrum which is unusual for PC, for your work. I'd love to hear you take on how you think about the spectrum and around upscaling PMs to move along that spectrum.
这确实导致了在职业成长或职位上进展较慢的情况。因为我能更好地与CEO们就比大多数同事更多的话题进行交流，所以通往真正高管角色的道路要快得多。显然，这只是我的个人经验。通往这样的层次有很多路径，但这些是对我有用的一些方法。这是一段令人叹为观止的定义，里面有很多很好的建议。这也为我们讨论你在产品人才光谱方面的独到见解提供了一个很好的切入点。谈到用户界面时，我会想到二维坐标，但我认为这只是一个光谱，这在个人电脑领域和你的工作中并不常见。我很想听听你关于如何看待这个光谱，以及如何提升产品经理以在这个光谱中前进的看法。
The idea is, and this is something, I was inspired from talking with Omar, who runs product at Cambly. He used to run a core product at Pinterest. It's this idea of any product team is like a gang of misfits. We all come from different backgrounds. Most people didn't start as a product manager, their first job, they might have been in sales or in marketing or analytics or engineering. So everyone's bringing these different skill sets to the table. But the main spectrum that I've observed in product teams of any decent size is that you have two extreme types of product managers per se. And on the left side of the spectrum, you have the crazy innovator types. They have so many different ideas. They pay attention to every single change in the industry. They all know all about the latest Apple API or Snapchat's latest product feature, right?
这个想法是这样的，我是从与 Cambly 的产品负责人 Omar 交谈中得到了启发。Omar 以前负责 Pinterest 的核心产品。这个想法是，任何产品团队就像是一群特立独行的人。我们都来自不同的背景。大多数人在成为产品经理之前，并不是从事这个职业；他们可能在销售、市场营销、数据分析或工程等方面做过工作。因此，每个人都带来了不同的技能。但是，在我观察到的任何规模合适的产品团队中，都会存在两个极端类型的产品经理。在光谱的左端，你会发现那些疯狂的创新者。他们有很多不同的想法，关注行业中的每一个变化，他们对最新的苹果 API 或 Snapchat 的最新产品功能了如指掌，对吗？
Those people are gonna have ideas all the time. Actually, probably most of those ideas are gonna be bad, but like one out of 10 is gonna be just a game changer. And they're generally not super great at turning that idea into action. And then on the right, on the extreme right side of the spectrum, will be your typical executional focused PM. And they can do a really good job of taking a strong strategy and turning it into action that creates value for the customer. But they generally don't know it's going on in the industry. They can't think of a totally new product idea themselves. They're gonna need support from above to be able to push them in the right direction and then they got it from there.
那些人会一直有想法。实际上，其中大多数想法可能都不太好，但十个中可能会有一个是颠覆性的。而他们通常不太擅长将这些想法转化为行动。然后在光谱的另一个极端是典型的执行型产品经理，他们非常擅长将强有力的策略转化为能够为客户创造价值的行动。但是，他们通常不了解行业动态，也想不出全新的产品创意。他们需要上级的支持来引导他们走上正确的道路，然后才能发挥他们的能力。
So the, when you think about recruiting, what we all want as like CPO's in terms of people we bring into our team is who are people in the middle? We want people who are strategic. They understand what's going on in the industry. They can generate some good ideas, but they could also turn it into something real that delivers value for the customer and the company. And there's just already a ton of those people, you know, in the world, not as many as we would like to recruit. So, you know, as a product leader, if I'm airing on the side of like which side of the spectrum I what people from, I generally will take people who are good at execution over people who are good at generating ideas. Because of course, there's always too many good ideas that a company need to focus in, and execute well on the best ones.
所以，当我们考虑招聘时，作为首席产品官（CPO），我们希望招募到的人是那些兼具战略思维和执行力的人。我们想要的人是既能理解行业动态，又能提出好主意，还能将这些想法变为现实，为客户和公司创造价值的人。世界上已经有很多这样的人才，但这类人才仍然没有我们希望招募的那么多。因此，作为产品负责人，如果我要在选择倾向上有所偏向，我通常会选择执行力强的人而不是只擅长提出想法的人。毕竟，公司总是会面对太多的好点子，而我们需要专注于选择最优秀的想法并将之执行到位。
Whereas if I were a VC, I would probably buy us to the people on the left because I don't need every company to work. If I invest in 10 different entrepreneurs who have crazy ideas and one of them works and becomes the next Airbnb, turns out I've done incredibly well, you know, as a venture capitalist. So the challenge you practically deal with as a product leader is you end up recruiting and managing and growing a lot of executional people who can get stuff done. But if they want to get to the director level or if they want to get to my level, they need to get more strategic. And we don't have good ways to kind of turn great executors into great strategists, you know, as in general like a product, you know, a function.
如果换作我是风投，我可能会选择投资那些往左走的人，因为我并不需要每家公司都成功。如果我投资了10个有疯狂想法的企业家，而其中一个成功并成为下一个Airbnb，那么作为风险投资家，我的成绩就已经非常出色了。所以，作为产品负责人，你实际上面临的挑战是，你需要招募、管理和发展很多执行力强的员工，他们能够把事情完成。但如果他们想要晋升到总监级别，或者达到我所在的级别，他们就需要变得更加具有战略眼光。然而，我们并没有很好的方法将优秀的执行者转变成出色的战略家，在产品这一职能领域，这是一个普遍的问题。
So I started investing in a lot of different things here. Obviously I built some programs for reforge around product strategy. A lot of my team goes to those to try to learn. I've also been doing a lot of mentorship with the team to try to teach them what it looks like to do that well. I've had people come in to speak with the team like you and many other great product folks to show, you know, my team what great looks like and how people like you developed your skills. And I'm trying lots of different things to try to move, you know, more of the team to the middle where they can be that, you know, optimal strategist that still retains that ability to deliver great value on top of the strategy versus just have ideas that can be executed on. And it's definitely a work in progress.
所以我开始在这里投资于许多不同的领域。我在Reforge为产品策略构建了一些课程。我有很多团队成员参加这些课程以学习提升。我还投入大量精力在团队的指导上，希望教会他们如何做好这件事。我邀请了你和许多其他优秀的产品专家来与团队交流，展示什么是真正的优秀，以及像你这样的专业人士是如何发展技能的。我尝试了很多不同的方法，希望能够将更多团队成员引导到一个中间位置，让他们成为理想的战略家，同时保持能在策略之上交付巨大价值的能力，而不仅仅是执行一些想法。这项工作还在持续进行中。
It's a lot of a lot of different tactics to try to build that skill set inside the team and scale it and you know, definitely something. I feel like I'm still working on. What I'm hearing is a lot of the kind of the biggest upside for PMs to develop is basically to become more strategic. And all the things you've shared are just ways, are a lot of ways to just become better at strategies. It's interesting that that's like what you found to be the most essential piece for PMs to often level up at. Like you said, it depends on the level, right? So early on in your career as a PM, you're going to get the most value by showing that you can ship real things to customers and that the customers like them. Like that's by far the most important thing.
有许多不同的策略可以用来在团队内部建立这些技能，并使其规模化。我感觉我还在不断努力中。我听到的是，产品经理（PM）需要提升的最大潜力是变得更加具有战略性。你分享的各种方法，实际上都是为了让策略能力更强。这是你认为对PM们非常重要的提升方面。正如你所说，这取决于你的职业阶段。在职业生涯的早期，作为一名PM，你最需要展示的是你能向客户发布真实的产品，并且客户喜欢这些产品。这是最重要的事情，没有之一。
But if you want to start managing groups of PMs, if you want to start a running a business unit or a pillar or a theme, I'm going, I as a cheap product officer, I'm going to expect you to be able to write that strategy doc without me. And you know, what I found in, you know, whether it's through the advising roles or through coming into event break is just a lot of people couldn't do that step. And that means when you tried to become a product leader at the company and you know, the CEO expects that from you and you can't do it, you're going to set yourself up to like really cap hard on how fast your career can grow. And you'll get stuck, you know, whether it's at the senior product manager level or at the group PM level, because you can't show that you can drive decision making on your own and that you can push forward new ideas that are going to help the company.
如果你想开始管理一群产品经理，或者想运营一个业务单元、项目或主题，我作为首席产品官，会希望你能够独立撰写战略文档。无论是在咨询角色中还是参与到具体项目中，我发现很多人无法做到这一步。这意味着当你想在公司成为产品领袖，而CEO也期望你具备这种能力时，如果你做不到，就会极大限制你职业发展的速度。你可能会被困在高级产品经理或团队产品经理的层级，因为你无法展示你能独立做出决策，并推动对公司有帮助的新创意。
So that's definitely where I've seen the biggest bottleneck in terms of skill sets. Obviously, there's lots of important skill sets. You want to build as a PM, but that one to get to the top is the great filter. That's awesome advice for folks listening that are trying to figure out what should I work on. It's kind of simple. A lot of times just get better at strategy and it feels like it elevates you in so many other ways. Yeah. And of course, we could talk for hours about what it means to get better at strategy and some of the tactics there. I know some PMs follow up struggle with that.
所以这就是我看到技能瓶颈最明显的地方。显然，作为产品经理（PM），有很多重要的技能需要培养，但要达到顶尖水平，这个就是一个重要的过滤标准。对于那些在思考应该优先钻研什么技能的人来说，这是一条非常棒的建议。其实很简单，很多时候只要提升你的战略能力，就会在其他方面获得提升。当然，我们可以花几个小时来讨论如何提高战略能力以及一些具体的策略。我知道有些PM在这方面会遇到困难。
Yeah. Okay. Podcast number two. Podcast number two. Let's book it. Okay. So I can't let you go without talking back growth. Everyone's always trying to figure out how do we grow our company? What can we do to accelerate growth? I know you're modest, but I think you're one of the smartest people in the world on this stuff. And so I just want to touch on a couple of things in the time that we have here. One is with thing with paid growth becoming increasingly more expensive and difficult, especially with Apple's recent changes. SEO forever becoming more crowded sales being always expensive. It's just like tough out there for a lot of startups to grow. Are you seeing any interesting or new growth channels or tactics that folks can explore or consider that may be work for companies that you're there looking at?
好的，这是播客第二期。播客第二期，让我们来安排一下。好了，在你离开之前，我不能不谈一下增长。每个人都在试图弄清楚如何让公司成长，我们可以做些什么来加速增长。我知道你很谦虚，但我认为在这方面你是世界上最聪明的人之一。所以我想在我们有限的时间里讨论几个事情。首先是付费增长变得越来越昂贵和困难，尤其是因为苹果最近的变化。搜索引擎优化（SEO）竞争日益激烈，销售总是花费不菲。对许多初创公司来说，增长实在是艰难。你有没有发现一些有趣或新的增长渠道或策略，值得大家去探索或考虑的，也许对你所观察的公司有帮助的方法？
It's not that there are new channels per se unless you include, you know, tokens from like Web 3, which I do not. It's more that there are ways to get leverage on your channels through better flows or lifetime value that companies are figuring out. So for example, you know, that bright, we unified what were separate direct response and lead generation flows in our performance marketing to acquire creators. And now it just takes less effort. We're getting better CPAs and sales now has the opportunity to pick up, you know, any product qualified lead, you know, from a direct response customer who may need a little bit more help.
这并不是说有全新的渠道，除非你将诸如Web 3的代币也算作渠道，但我并不这样认为。关键在于公司开始发现通过改进流程或提升客户终身价值来提升现有渠道的效率。例如，在Bright，我们整合了原本分开的直接响应和潜在客户生成流程，以更高效地吸引创作者。现在，我们的投入更少了，但却得到了更好的每次获取成本(CPA)，而销售团队也有机会跟进那些来自直接响应的客户，他们可能只是需要一点额外的帮助，以成为符合产品资格的潜在客户。
And they have the data to now determine if there's high enough value to justify it. So, you know, this concept is being dubbed product lead sales. And it's this idea that you can unify self service loops in a B2B business, which are typically driven by product and your sales loops into one more complex giant loop that operates more efficiently and breaks down the silos. And I think you're going to see an explosion in B2B companies that learned how to unlock that and get sales and product and marketing to be working as one larger cross-functional team and building an engine that optimizes all of their skill sets. So that's something I'm pretty excited about. But we're definitely in the early days there.
他们现在有数据，可以判断是否有足够的价值来证明这样做是合理的。这个概念被称为产品主导销售。这是一个想法，即你可以在B2B业务中统一通常由产品驱动的自助服务循环和销售循环，形成一个更复杂、更高效运作的大循环，从而打破孤岛。我认为，你会看到很多B2B公司会学习如何解锁这一点，让销售、产品和市场部门作为一个更大的跨职能团队一起合作，构建一种能够优化所有技能的引擎。我对此感到非常兴奋，但我们确实还处于早期阶段。
That's that's awesome. I was going to ask you if there's any trends you're seeing around growth. And clearly that's one. Are there are there any other trends just things happening in the growth world? Yeah, sure. I think there was, you know, this conventional wisdom to just focus on building until you found product market fit and then you can worry about growth. And of course, there's there's some truth in that statement. But now as I'm talking with more and more founders, and I'm sure you're seeing this yourself is we're seeing founders who are thinking about building growth loops into their product before they find product market fit. And it's not so that they can prematurely scale before they have product market fit.
这太棒了。我本来想问你是否观察到了有关增长的趋势。显然，这就是其中一个。还有其他趋势或发生在增长领域的事情吗？当然有。我认为，传统的观念是一心专注于产品研发，直到找到产品市场契合点，然后再考虑增长的问题。当然，这种说法有一定道理。不过，现在我与越来越多的创业者交流时发现，我相信你也看到这样的趋势，就是一些创业者在找到产品市场契合点之前，就已经在他们的产品中考虑如何加入增长循环。而这并不是为了在未找到产品市场契合点之前就过早地扩张。
It's so that when they find product market fit, they have that built in distribution advantage to grow once they're ready. And founders are starting to do it. You know, what I've written about a bit as well as you, which is that scalable acquisition or what we call an acquisition loop is a requirement for product market fit. Like if you got a product that retains well and you can't find more use for it, I don't think that's product market fit. So it's really exciting to see that evolution and to see founders think about like it's not about getting a bunch of users before you have a product that works.
这样做是为了在他们找到产品市场契合点时，能够具备内置的分销优势，以便在准备就绪后实现增长。现在，一些创业者已经开始这么做了。我和你都有提到过的一点是，可扩展的用户获取能力，或者我们称之为获取闭环，是产品市场契合的必要条件。如果你的产品留存率很高，但找不到更多的使用途径，我认为这不算是产品市场契合。所以，看到这样的进化以及创业者们意识到在产品有效之前，不应该只是单纯追求大量用户，这真是令人兴奋。
It's about thinking strategically about how this product is going to grow itself when it's ready to do so. So I'm really excited to see the next generation of founders, you know, build that muscle early on. And and also, you know, leverage it when they're ready instead of just like, Oh, but throw a bunch of paid ads at it and it's going to work. So that's something I'm really excited about. On that topic, when should companies focus on growth? And the second question, when do you think they should hire a head of growth or someone full time focused on growth?
这段话的意思是要从战略上思考，当产品准备好发展自己时，该如何实现这一目标。我很期待看到新一代的创业者在早期就培养这种能力，并在准备好时加以利用，而不是仅仅依赖大量付费广告来推动增长。关于何时应该关注增长的问题，我感到非常兴奋。关于这个话题，第一，企业应该在什么时候关注增长？第二，您认为企业应该在何时聘请专门负责增长的负责人或全职人员？
Like I mentioned, well, you don't want to focus on growth before product market fit. You want to be thinking about how your product can grow scalably, you know, pretty early on. So, you know, early growth definitely needs to be done by the founders. I tend to separate growth into two phases. I call the first phase Kindle strategies. These are those non scalable hacks to get your early users. And I think those are generally done by founders, maybe some early team members, fire strategies are the ones that drive scale.
就像我提到的，你不应该在产品市场适配之前过多关注增长。你需要在早期阶段就开始考虑如何让你的产品实现可扩展的增长。因此，早期的增长工作肯定需要由创始人来完成。我通常将增长分为两个阶段。第一个阶段我称之为“火种策略”，这些是不具备可扩展性的方式，用于吸引早期用户。我认为这些工作通常是由创始人或早期团队成员完成的。而“火焰策略”则是那些能够驱动产品规模化增长的方法。
That's, you know, what you're mentioning, content loop, sales loops, viral loops, paid acquisition. And to me, the goal of your Kindle strategies, these like non scalable hacks, they only exist to unlock the fire strategies to unlock the things that could take you to millions of users. And it's once you unlock a fire strategy, that's when I think you think about hiring someone full time on growth to fully harness that new growth loop you built that could be a sales person, if it's sales, it could be, you know, growth PM, if it's viral or you just see content, or give you a performance marketer, if it's ads.
你提到的内容循环、销售循环、病毒式循环和付费获客等等。对我来说，你的 Kindle 策略的目标是这些不具规模的技巧，它们的存在只是为了激活那些可以带你获得数百万用户的核心策略。当你解锁了一种核心策略时，我认为这就是你该考虑全职招聘一名增长人员来充分利用你构建的新增长循环的时候。这名员工可能是一名销售人员，如果涉及销售；如果是病毒式传播或内容策略，可能是增长产品经理；如果是广告，则可能是绩效营销人员。
But it's once it's like, okay, we've sequenced to a growth strategy that actually scales. Let's go find someone who's awesome at that who can make it, you know, 10x better. That's how I think about it. Maybe a last question, is there, is there kind of an underappreciated or underinvested in growth strategy, growth tactic, things that you're just like, oh, wow, this seems to be working better than people may think.
一旦我们制定了一种真正可扩展的增长策略，我们就需要去寻找一个非常出色的人来把这个策略提升到一个更高的层次，比如提升十倍。这是我的思考方式。也许最后一个问题是，有没有什么被低估或投资不足的增长策略或增长手段，是那种你觉得效果比人们想象的要好的？
Yeah, well, I still think data network effects are under rated. I think a lot of people confuse the idea of data network effects with data as a product you can charge people for, especially like businesses. And I get it like a lot of businesses like you can't charge them for data because they don't know how to use data super well, especially SMBs. But with data network effects are is leveraging product usage data to make the product value stronger and stronger over time. You know, that could be personalized results, you know, in the case of Pinterest, where in the case of Eventbrite, better targeting data for advertising to find people who are more likely to be interested in your event.
好的，我仍然认为数据网络效应的价值被低估了。很多人把数据网络效应误解为可以向人们收费的数据产品，尤其是在商业领域。我明白很多企业没办法为数据付费，因为他们并不太懂如何有效使用数据，特别是中小型企业。但是，数据网络效应其实是利用产品使用的数据来不断增强产品的价值。比如，在Pinterest中可以实现个性化推荐，而在Eventbrite中，可以帮助更好地定位广告，以找到更可能对你的活动感兴趣的人。
And I think, especially with Facebook and Apple's platform changes, your product to being able to generate its own data versus just relying on the big platforms to do all the work for you, that's a real edge that companies are starting to wake up to. And it's obviously something that's worked well for me in the past, you know, Pinterest and certainly now in Eventbrite.
我认为，特别是在 Facebook 和 Apple 的平台发生变化的情况下，能够自行生成数据的产品，而不是仅仅依赖这些大型平台来完成所有工作，这是一种真正的优势，很多公司开始意识到这一点。显然，这在过去对我来说效果很好，比如在 Pinterest 以及现在的 Eventbrite。
So there's a couple of questions that I had at the top that I skipped that I thought I'd come back to. I know that you're a big video game guy. And I love that at the bottom of your post, you always share the music that you're listening to. So I was just going to ask what's the game you're playing these days, anything you recommend? And then what are you listening to?
我一开始有几个问题跳过了，现在想回过头来问问。我知道你是电子游戏爱好者，而且我很喜欢你在帖子底部分享你正在听的音乐。所以我想问问你最近在玩什么游戏，有什么推荐的吗？那你最近在听什么音乐呢？
Yeah, I'm currently playing Cyberpunk 2077 on the PS5, which is fun. But I recently finished Horizon for Ben West. And that was excellent. Really great science fiction game. You know, on the music side, what are my favorite bands, this band called broadcast? And they never really played live a whole lot. And they're their singer died a few years ago. But they recently came out with a recording of a bunch of their live sessions that they recorded on the BBC.
是的，我现在正在PS5上玩《赛博朋克2077》，这款游戏很有趣。不过我最近刚结束了《地平线 西之绝境》，那是真棒。非常出色的科幻游戏。说到音乐，我最喜欢的乐队之一叫Broadcast。他们并没有进行很多现场演出，而他们的主唱几年前去世了。不过，他们最近发布了一张在BBC录制的现场演出合集。
And it's it's like, it's like getting this time capsule from the past of some of their, you know, early live sessions. That's been really great. So I've been I've been enjoying that record quite a lot lately. Awesome. Casey's picks. Get him here. Get him here now. Casey, I feel like I was successful in extracting many nuggets and our hour together. Really appreciate your time. Where can folks find you online? And how can people that are listening be helpful to you?
这就像从过去得到一个时间胶囊，可以看到他们早期的一些现场表演，这实在太棒了。所以最近我一直很喜欢那张唱片。太好了！Casey的选择。快让他过来。我觉得我们这一小时的交流中我收获了很多宝贵的东西，非常感谢你的时间。人们可以在哪里在线找到你？听众可以如何帮助你呢？
Blog at kc accidental.com. I'm semi active on Twitter at one case man. And you know, always I focus on paying it forward, like help the next generation of companies of PMs of marketers, get better at the craft and build better businesses. You know, and if you if you're searching for a cool event, check out the event bright app. Of course, we always would appreciate that.
在kc accidental.com上写博客。我在Twitter上的用户名是one case man，算是半活跃状态。你知道的，我一直专注于传递经验，比如帮助下一代的公司、产品经理和市场营销人员提高他们的技能，打造更好的企业。如果你在找有趣的活动，可以看看Eventbrite应用。当然，我们总是很感激你的关注。
Love it. Amazing. Casey, what a great way to end it. Thank you again for being here. Thanks so much. That was awesome. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and even better, leave a review, which helps a lot. You can also learn more at Lenny's podcast dot com. I'll see you in the next episode.
喜欢极了，太棒了。Casey，这真是个完美的结尾。再次感谢你来到这里，非常感谢。这真是太精彩了。感谢你的收听。如果你喜欢这次聊天，别忘了订阅这个播客，甚至更好的是，留下评价，这会有很大的帮助。你还可以在Lenny's podcast.com了解更多信息。我们下期再见。