How to tell better stories | Matthew Dicks (Storyworthy)
发布时间 2023-12-15 12:00:15 来源
Everyone loves the word storytelling and business. It's a huge buzzword. They love to think of themselves as storytellers, but when they come to me, they don't really want to be storytellers because to be a storyteller means you have to separate yourself from the herd. And in their mind that risks them getting picked off right getting picked off by some predator, but the alternative is you're in the herd, which means you're forgettable. I mean, how many times have you gone to a conference, listen to someone speak, and by the time you're pulling into the driveway, you really can't remember anything that they said because that's what happens if we don't speak in story.
每个人都喜欢使用“讲故事”和“商业”这样的词，这是一个热门词汇。大家喜欢把自己想象成讲故事的人，但当他们来找我时，他们其实并不真正想成为讲故事的人，因为成为一个讲故事的人意味着你必须与众不同。在他们看来，这样做会有被“捕食”的风险。然而，另一种选择是待在大队伍中，这样你就是可被遗忘的。想想看，有多少次你参加一个会议，听完某个演讲，开车回到家时已经记不住他们说了什么了？如果我们不通过讲故事来沟通，这就是很常见的结果。
Our minds are not designed to remember a pie chart or facts or statistics or platitudes or ideas that are not attached to imagery. So the risk you take if you're not telling stories is that you will be forgotten 100% you will be forgot. Today my guest is Matthew Dix. Matthew is the author of my all-time favorite book on storytelling, Story Worthy, which a previous guest of the podcast recommended to me and I couldn't put it down so I reached out to Matthew and got him on the podcast.
我们的思维并不是为了记住饼状图、事实、统计数据、陈词滥调或不带有图像的概念而设计的。因此，如果你不讲故事，就有可能被遗忘，绝对会被遗忘。今天我的嘉宾是Matthew Dix。他是我最喜欢的一本关于故事讲述的书《值得讲的故事》（Story Worthy）的作者。这本书是我之前的一位播客嘉宾推荐给我的，我一拿到就爱不释手，所以我联系了Matthew，并邀请他参加这个播客。
Matthew is a 59-time Moth Story slam winner and 9-time Grand Slam Champ. He's also the author of 9 other books including Fictions, Rock Opera's, even a comic book. In his day job, he is an elementary school teacher and on the side teaches both individuals and teams of companies like Slack, Amazon, Lego, and Salesforce the skill of storytelling and public speaking through his company speak up. In our conversation, we get very tactical about how to tell better stories both in life and in work, how to feel more comfortable speaking on stage, how to come up with story ideas that you can deploy when they need arises, why every good story is centered around one five-second moment of transformation and so much more.
马修是一位多才多艺的人，他赢得了59次Moth故事比赛奖和9次大奖赛冠军。他还是9本书的作者，包括小说、摇滚歌剧，甚至是一本漫画书。在他的日常工作中，他是一名小学教师，另外，他还通过自己的公司Speak Up教Slack、亚马逊、乐高和Salesforce等企业的个人和团队讲故事和公开演讲的技巧。在我们的对话中，我们非常具体地探讨了如何在生活和工作中讲述更好的故事，如何在舞台上更自如地表达，如何提出可以在需要时使用的故事创意，为什么每个好故事都围绕一个五秒钟的转变时刻展开等等。
Matt is an incredible human being and I am excited to spread his message more widely. If you're interested in this topic, definitely pick up his book Story Worthy. It'll change your life. With that, I bring you Matthew Dix after a short word from our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by OneSkima, the imbedoble CSK importer for SAS. Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSP file. In building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never-ending sink for your engineering and support resources. You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, the customers keep running into issues.
Matt 是一个了不起的人，我很高兴能更广泛地传播他的理念。如果你对这个话题感兴趣，强烈推荐你读一读他的书《值得讲述的故事》。这本书会改变你的人生。接下来，我将为大家介绍Matthew Dix，不过在这之前，让我们先听一下赞助商的话。本期节目由 OneSkima 赞助，这是一款适用于 SAS 的不可或缺的 CSV 导入工具。客户总是喜欢用最凌乱的 CSV 文件给你他们的数据，这让开发一个电子表格导入器变成了一个无休止的工程与技术支持资源消耗。你不断地为电子表格导入器添加新的功能，而客户的问题却层出不穷。
Six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug. Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but one schema is. Companies like Scalae i and Paid are using one schema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences. From imbedoble CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis. Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products. Customers get frustrated by useless messages like error online 53 and never end up getting started with your product.
六个月后，你又在修复一个日期转换边界问题的小错误。大多数工具并不擅长处理混乱的数据，但有一种方案可以做到。像 Scalae i 和 Paid 这样的公司正在使用这种方案，使得快速且轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验变得可能。从简单的 CSV 文件导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹中导入 CSV 文件，都可以实现。在很多产品中，电子表格导入都是一种糟糕的体验。客户常常因类似“第53行出现错误”这样的无用信息而感到沮丧，最终导致他们无法顺利开始使用你的产品。
One schema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product. For listeners of this podcast, one schema is offering a $1,000 discount. Learn more at oneschema.co slash letty. This episode is brought to you by Maui Newi Venison, a mission-based food company bringing the healthiest red meat on the planet directly to your door. Actually joined Maui Newi Venison earlier this year after hearing their ad on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and I'm excited to be spreading the message further.
有一个智能工具One Schema可以自动纠正混乱的数据，这样你的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来使用你的产品。对于收听此播客的听众，One Schema提供$1,000的折扣。更多信息请访问oneschema.co/letty。 本期节目由Maui Newi Venison赞助。这是一家以使命为基础的食品公司，致力于将最健康的红肉直接送到你家门口。今年早些时候，我在听了Tim Ferriss的播客广告后加入了Maui Newi Venison，我很高兴能继续传播这个信息。
Not only does this company provide the most nutrient dense and protein dense red meat available, their operation produces the only stress-free 100% wild harvested red meat on the market. That is the only one of its kind in the world, actively managing Maui's invasive access to your populations, helping to restore balance to vulnerable ecosystems, food systems, and communities in Hawaii. Also, it is seriously delicious, not at all gamey, and easy to cook. My wife and I mates stew and steaks, and all kinds of grilled goodies with the meat.
这家公司不仅提供最富含营养和蛋白质的红肉，而且他们的运营方式确保了市场上唯一的100%纯野生采集红肉，没有任何压力。这在全球是独一无二的，他们积极管理茂宜岛入侵物种的数量，帮助恢复夏威夷脆弱的生态系统、食品系统和社区的平衡。而且，这种肉味道极其美味，不带任何野味味道，非常易于烹饪。我和妻子用这种肉做炖菜和牛排，还有各种烤制美食。
We also feel great about it as a protein from an ethical standpoint. I highly recommend trying their all-natural venison jerky sticks for an optimal protein snack, as well as a wide variety of fresh cuts all available in their online butcher shop. There are limited memberships available, but you can sign up and get 20% off your first order at MauiNuiVenison.com slash Lenny. That's MauiNuiVenison.com slash Lenny. Matt, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. It's my pleasure. I'm excited to be here.
从道德角度来看，我们对这种蛋白质感到非常满意。我强烈推荐他们的全天然鹿肉干作最佳的蛋白质零食，此外他们的网上肉店还有多种新鲜鹿肉可供选择。会员名额有限，但您可以注册并在第一次订购时享受8折优惠，访问网址是MauiNuiVenison.com/Lenny。Matt，非常感谢你的到来。欢迎来到我们的播客。我很高兴能够参与，非常期待这次交流。
I'm even more excited to have you on. The way I found out about you is a previous guest. I mentioned your book as a book that really transformed the way they think about storytelling and even marketing. I completely agree. It's the most tactical, practical, and also just entertaining book. I'm just how to tell better stories. When I was reading, I was just like, hey, what if I reached out to the author of this book and see if he'd come on? Here we are. I'm thrilled to be here, and I appreciate what you had to say. I try to make my book as actionable as possible. I think the only reason I'm successful in what I do is that I've been a teacher for 25 years, and I'm a storyteller, so the two of those things come together pretty well for me.
我非常高兴能邀请到你。了解到你的信息是通过一位之前的嘉宾，他们提到你的书对他们在讲故事和营销方面的思维产生了很大影响，我完全同意。这本书是最具战术性、实用性，同时也非常有趣的一本书，它教我如何讲述更好的故事。在阅读这本书时，我心想，不如联系一下这本书的作者，看看他是否愿意来做客。现在我们在这里，我非常激动，并感谢你的分享。我努力让我的书尽可能富有实用性。我能在自己的领域取得成功的唯一原因可能是我教书已有25年，并且是一名讲故事的人，这两者结合得恰到好处。
Okay, so I thought it'd be fun to start with. Maybe the most mind-expanding takeaway I got from this book is this idea that all good stories are rooted in this five-second moment of someone's life. Can you just talk about this insight and maybe share an example to you to make this real? Sure. Well, that is true, what you just said, which is essentially every story is about a singular moment. I call it five seconds. It can be one second, honestly. It's a moment of either transformation, meaning sort of I'm telling you a story about how I once used to be one kind of person, and now I'm a new kind of person, or more common is realization, which is I used to think something, and then some stuff happened, and now I think a new thing.
好的，所以我觉得从这个点开始会很有趣。也许这本书给我带来的最开阔思维的体会是这样的：所有好的故事都根植于某个人生命中的一个五秒钟的时刻。可以谈谈这个领悟，也许分享一个例子来让这个概念更加生动吗？当然，这是你刚刚提到的事实，基本上每个故事都是关于一个独特的瞬间。我称之为五秒钟，其实可以是一秒钟。这是个改变的时刻，意思是我在讲述我曾经是一种人，现在变得不同了；更常见的是领悟，也就是我原本有某个看法，然后发生了一些事情，现在我有了新的看法。
And those changes, they take place sort of over time, or really what happens is it's an accumulation of events and feelings and thoughts that ultimately result in a singular moment where that flip actually happens. And I think that's true for almost everyone. It feels like it took a long time, but there really was one second when you thought one thing, and then the next second when you thought the new thing. And the purpose of a story is essentially to bring that moment to the greatest clarity possible to the audience, so that the audience can sort of, in a way, experience that flip, that transformation or realization, along with the storyteller.
这些变化是逐渐发生的，其实是事件、情感和想法的积累，最终导致某个瞬间的转变。我认为这对几乎所有人都是如此。虽然感觉上花了很长时间，但实际上只有一秒钟，你的想法从一个念头变成了另一个。故事的作用就是最大程度地让这一刻对观众清晰可见，让观众仿佛能与讲述者一起经历那个转变或领悟的瞬间。
So 98% of the story is the context to bring that singular moment into fruition. And that is true for stories that we tell out loud, stories we tell on the page, novels that I write, movies that I watch, television shows that I watch, all of the stories of the world that are worth hearing, and truly just about every story told that qualifies as a story has one of those moments. That's a big statement. Is there an example to you? Could share with your stories we know or just tell a short story, whatever is easier to give people like, oh, wow, you're totally right.
98%的故事内容都是为了实现那个关键时刻而铺垫的。这不仅适用于我们口头讲述的故事、书写的故事、我创作的小说、我观看的电影和电视剧，事实上，所有值得聆听的故事，几乎每一个符合“故事”定义的叙述，都有这样一个重要时刻。这是一个很大的观点，有没有例子可以分享一下呢？或者可以讲一个简短的故事，让大家觉得“哇，你说得没错”。
Sure. Well, I'll tell you one that happened actually today. How about that? Amazing. So I'm teaching math today. I'm an elementary school teacher, and I'm teaching math, and I have a student in my classroom named as Eileen. And she's one of those kids that I worry about a little bit because she's got some anxiety. So she's not the most confident person in the world, and in September, I was aware of this. So I've been working really hard at building confidence with her. And so today we're doing some math, and I'm calling kids to the board. And I'm sort of looking at Eileen and wondering, is today the day? Am I going to call Eileen to the board? Because doing so, there's a risk. There's an inherent risk that she could, you know, be upset. She could embarrass herself in front of the class in a way that means something to her.
当然。我来说一个今天实际发生的事情，怎么样？太棒了。今天我在教数学。我是一名小学老师，我的课堂上有一个学生叫艾琳。我有点担心她，因为她有些焦虑，所以不是世界上最自信的人。在九月份的时候，我就注意到这个问题，所以一直在努力提高她的自信心。今天我们在上数学课，我在让孩子们到黑板上做题。我看着艾琳，想着今天是不是时候让她上台了？因为这样做有一定的风险。她可能会因为紧张而不安，或者在全班面前出错，这对她来说可能是一个难堪的事情。
And I just wasn't sure. So I didn't call her to the board. And so at the end of the math lesson, I wandered over to her desk, and I said, so Eileen, I was thinking about calling you to the board today, but I just wasn't sure if you're there yet. What do you think? And she said to me, first of all, I don't like that cheeky smile of yours. And that is all I needed to hear. That was my five-second moment. That was the moment of realization where I understood that Eileen trusted me, felt confident enough in my classroom, that she could be herself, that she could fire off a quip at a teacher, sort of like, you know, take a shot at me. I knew at that point that now I can call her to the board, that she's going to be okay.
我当时不太确定，所以没有让她上黑板。在数学课结束时，我走到她的桌子旁，对她说：“Eileen，我本来想叫你上黑板，但不太确定你是否准备好了。你怎么看？” 她回答我：“首先，我不喜欢你那挑衅的笑容。” 就这句话让我恍然大悟。这是个五秒钟的瞬间，让我意识到Eileen信任我，对课堂环境感到足够自信，能够真实地做自己，甚至可以对老师开个小玩笑。那一刻我知道，我可以放心地请她上黑板，她会没问题的。
So, you know, essentially it is a very brief story that I could actually expand into something much more meaningful. I could make that into a five or six minute story about my journey with this student, which would include in the longer version of it, the steps that I took to discover who she was, the steps I took to help her reach the point she's at now. I would probably pull in some backstory about students who I was not so successful with, some of my failures before I learned how to be a better teacher, and then I'd bring it to the moment where she says, first of all, I don't like that cheeky smile, and that's all I need to hear.
所以，你知道，基本上这只是一个非常简短的故事，但我可以把它扩展成一个更有意义的情节。我可以把它变成一个五到六分钟的故事，讲述我与这名学生一路走来的经历。在这个更长的版本里，我会包含我为了解她所采取的步骤，以及我帮助她达到现在这个水平的步骤。我可能还会加入一些关于其他学生的背景故事，比如那些我没有那么成功的例子，以及我在学会成为更好的老师之前的一些失败经历。最后，我会讲到一个时刻，她对我说，首先，我不喜欢你那顽皮的微笑，而这就是我需要听到的一切。
So, that is essentially a five-second moment for me. That is the same, though, as any other five-second moment. You know, if you think about a movie like Star Wars, the first Star Wars that came out, right, that is a movie essentially about religion, which people sort of don't always see, but it is true. There's a boy on a planet, and he wants to go to space someday and fly a spaceship and use blasters to defeat the empire. And along the way he meets a religious figure, it's Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he introduces him to a religion called the Force.
这对我来说基本上是一个五秒钟的时刻。不过，这和其他任何五秒钟的时刻是一样的。你知道吗，如果你想到《星球大战》这样的电影，第一部《星球大战》，对吧，那部电影基本上是关于宗教的，这一点人们常常没有注意到，但确实如此。影片中有一个男孩住在一个星球上，他希望有一天能够去太空，驾驶飞船，用武器击败帝国。在这个过程中，他遇到了一个宗教人物，也就是欧比旺·克诺比，他向他介绍了一种名为“原力”的宗教。
And when the final moment comes for Luke Skywalker to defeat the empire, his vision of using technology, a spaceship and a blaster to destroy the empire, all of that goes away. And he turns off his technology in his spaceship. Instead, he uses the Force to guide his weapon to defeat the enemy. And that is a story about a boy who once had no religion, and then some stuff happened, and he had religion in the end. And that's why a story like that resonates with us in a way that another story might not, because we all understand what it's like to not believe in something, and then find belief in something, whether that is religious belief, or I used to think cheeseburgers didn't taste good, and now I believe that they taste good.
当最终时刻来到，路克·天行者要击败帝国时，他原本依靠科技、飞船和激光枪摧毁帝国的计划都被放弃了。他关掉了飞船上的科技设备，而是使用原力引导武器来打败敌人。这是一个关于一个男孩的故事，他曾经没有信仰，然后经过一些事情后，最终得到了信仰。这样的故事打动人心，是因为我们都明白，从不信到信的过程，无论那信仰是宗教信仰，还是比如我曾以为汉堡不好吃，而现在我相信它很好吃的改变。
Either way, we understand that process, and we can connect with Luke Skywalker in a meaningful way. So every story essentially has those moments, including I don't like that cheeky smile. With this moment, what's also interesting is you talk about how knowing that moment of change also tells you how the story will end. So as a storyteller, you will know how it ends based on knowing what this moment is, which then also tells you how it's going to start roughly. Can you just talk about that realization? Because to me, every time I watch a movie now, I'm like, wow, I know exactly how it's going to turn out just from the beginning.
无论哪种情况，我们都能理解那个过程，并与卢克·天行者产生有意义的连接。所以每个故事基本上都有这样的时刻，包括我不喜欢那个狡黠的微笑。在这个时刻，有趣的是你谈到了解改变的那个时刻也会告诉你故事如何结束。因此，作为一个讲故事的人，基于对这个时刻的了解，你会知道它如何结束，这也会大致告诉你它会如何开始。你能谈谈这种领悟吗？因为对我来说，现在每次看电影的时候，仅从开始我就能明白它将如何发展，真的很惊讶。
Right. So we started storytellers at the end. Well, we start at the end if we are telling true stories about ourselves or our companies or our products, things that we know. I'm also a fiction writer. So when I start my novels, it's much more self-discovery. I really don't know the end of it. But in the storytelling that we're talking about, you have to know the end because you've lived the moment and the end informs everything. So you know what you're going to say. You found a moment worth speaking to, that five second moment, and then whatever that moment is, in my case, I discover that Eileen has more confidence than I realized than is ready to take a big step forward.
好的。那么，我们从结尾开始讲故事。如果我们是在讲关于我们自己、公司或产品的真实故事，也就是我们所熟知的事情，我们就从结尾开始。我也是一名小说作家，所以当我开始写小说时，更像是一个自我探索的过程，我并不知道故事的结局。然而，在我们讨论的这种故事讲述中，你必须知道结尾，因为你已经经历过那个时刻，而结尾决定了整个故事的方向。因此，你知道你要说什么。你找到了一个值得分享的时刻，那五秒钟的瞬间。就我而言，我发现艾琳比我意识到的更加自信，并准备好迈出重要的一步。
What's the opposite of me realizing Eileen has confidence and is ready to step forward? It is Eileen does not have confidence and I need to help her find that confidence. So that's the opposites that will work in a story. Essentially, a story is about these two moments in time, a beginning and an end, and they are operating in opposition to each other. Sometimes more so than others, sometimes exactly in opposition. But you're right. If you watch a movie and you will pay attention to the first 10 to 15 minutes of a movie, you will ultimately know how that movie's going to end.
意识到艾琳有信心并准备好向前迈进的反面是什么？那就是艾琳没有信心，我需要帮助她找到信心。这就是在故事中起作用的对立面。本质上，故事讲述的是这两个时间节点，一个开始，一个结束，它们彼此对立运作。有时候对立更明显，有时候正好完全相反。但你说得对，如果你看一部电影，并注意电影的前10到15分钟，你最终会知道这部电影将如何结束。
You'll see a character, you'll discover what that character needs or their flaw or their desire, and you know that that's what's going to be at the end. You know, the easiest one is a romantic comedy. Two people are not in love at the beginning of the movie. You know they're going to be in love at the end of the movie, right? Even knowing it doesn't mean the story is ruined, we can get there in a very entertaining way. When Harry met Sally, that movie when it begins, Harry and Sally actually say they hate each other at the very beginning of the movie. I hate you, Harry, right? I hate that man so much.
你会看到一个角色，你会发现这个角色的需求、缺点或愿望，你知道这将是故事的结尾。最简单的例子就是浪漫喜剧。两个人在电影开头时并不相爱，但你知道他们在电影结尾时会相爱，对吧？即使知道这一点也不意味着故事被破坏了，我们仍然可以用一种非常有趣的方式到达结局。在《当哈利遇到莎莉》这部电影的开头，哈利和莎莉实际上说他们彼此讨厌。比如，“我讨厌你，哈利，对吧？”“我太讨厌这个男人了。”
We know they're going to end up together and the journey is well worth the fact that we know what's going to happen at the end. So you know, it ruins a little bit of storytelling for people who sort of think like me and go, oh, well, I know where this is going, but you have to do it in an entertaining way filled with all the other things we talk about in storytelling. But yeah, every story should be essentially a beginning and an end in opposition to each other and you should start at the end. That guarantees that you have something important to say rather than what most people do, which is they simply rapport on their lives. They just tell you stuff that happened over the course of time in some chronological way that ultimately doesn't lead to anything.
我们知道他们最终会在一起，这个过程的精彩让我们知道结局也值得期待。对于像我这样的人来说，知道结局可能会给故事叙述带来一点小麻烦，因为会想“哦，我知道会发生什么”。但是，要通过有趣的方式来呈现这个故事，充满我们在讲故事时谈到的所有其他元素。没错，每个故事基本上都应该有一个相对的开始和结尾，你应该从结尾开始。这可以保证你有重要的内容要表达，而不是像大多数人那样，只是简单地报告生活中的事情，按时间顺序讲述发生的事，最终没有任何意义。
You want to always be saying something of import. So we started at the end with that moment of import. It's funny as I was thinking of when Harry met Sally exactly as you were talking as an example, my wife wants to watch the movie basically every night. It's like the one movie she could just watch a billion times. Well, that's the power of story. I tell people this all the time. You know, why are we telling stories? You've never asked to see a PowerPoint presentation a second time. You've never gone to bed and dreamt about a PowerPoint presentation.
你要始终讲述重要的事情。所以我们从最后一个重要的时刻开始。很有趣的是，当你提到时，我正好想到了《当哈利遇到莎莉》这部电影。我太太几乎每晚都想看这部电影，这就像是她可以看上无数遍的一部。 这就是故事的力量。我经常告诉别人这一点。你知道，我们为什么讲故事？你从来没有要求再看一遍PPT，也从来没有做梦时梦见过PPT。
You've never heard someone give a keynote and thought, I hope I get to watch that keynote again tomorrow. But movies, you'll watch a movie a hundred times because it's a story and our minds are wired to enjoy story over and over and over again. You have a you have a small child, right? Eventually you're going to be reading to that child when your baby's old enough and you're going to discover kids want to read the same book 50 times. They're really no different than adults except kid books are so small.
你从来没听过有人在做主旨演讲以后让你想“希望明天能再看一次这个演讲”。但电影就不一样了，你会看上百遍，因为它是个故事，而我们的思维模式就是天生喜欢反复欣赏故事。你有个小孩，对吧？等你的宝宝长大一点，你就会开始给他读书，你会发现孩子们总是想读同一本书几十遍。其实他们和大人没什么不同，只不过孩子的书很薄。
You can read them endlessly. A movie takes two hours so you don't get to read it as often as you might want or watch it as often as you might want. But Harry met Sally comes on and you're halfway through. You're probably in. Even though you know every scene you can probably do the dialogue. We're wired for story. That's why it's so important. Why is something changing so important? Why is that so critical to a good story? Someone having a change or transforming?
你可以无休止地阅读它们。一部电影需要两个小时，所以你可能没有机会像想要的那样频繁地阅读或观看。但是当《当哈利遇到莎莉》半途播放时，你可能会停下来继续看。即使你已经知道每个场景，甚至还能背出演员的台词。我们天生对故事情有独钟，这就是它如此重要的原因。为什么变化在故事中如此重要？为什么角色发生变化或转变对一个好故事如此关键？
Well, I think that actual moment of transformation lends importance to the story and allows the audience to connect to it. If I reported on my day to you, my day at teaching in a classroom, I am unlikely to connect with you unless you are also a teacher and you experienced things similar to me. My wife is a kindergarten teacher. I'm a fifth grade teacher. If both of us report on our day, oddly, we will not really connect very often. She is teaching them how to write the letter C and I am teaching them how to use the standard algorithm and multiplication.
我认为，真正的转折时刻使故事变得重要，并让观众能够与之产生共鸣。如果我向你描述我在教室里的一天经历，除非你也是一名教师并有类似的经历，否则我们很难产生联系。我的妻子是一名幼儿园老师，而我是五年级的老师。即使我们互相讲述一天的工作经历，也很奇怪，我们之间不太会有太多共鸣。她在教孩子们如何写字母C，而我在教学生们如何使用标准算法进行乘法。
They could not be further apart. So reporting on the moments that you have experienced in the day is not a way to connect to people. But when we talk about change, change has a great universal appeal. So you might not be a teacher who's trying to teach someone to find confidence in their life, but you might be a person who wants lacked confidence and then found confidence in the way I leaned it. Or you might be a parent or the boss of someone who is trying to bring confidence to your child, your employee, your salesperson, whatever it is.
他们相去甚远。因此，仅仅分享你在一天中经历的瞬间并不是与他人建立联系的方式。但当我们谈论变化时，变化具有很大的普遍吸引力。你可能不是一位试图让别人找到生活中信心的老师，但你可能曾经是一个缺乏信心的人，后来通过某种方式找到了信心。或者你可能是一个家长，或者是一位试图给孩子、员工、销售人员等带来自信的上司。
When we do change, when we're focused in on that change, we increase exponentially the universal appeal to the story and our ability to connect to an audience even though the content we're speaking about has nothing to do with them. The actual emotional appeal will cause people to connect to us. Fascinating. So building on that same thread of change, you also have this kind of checklist for what makes a good story, what is a good story. And I think it's only a three-point checklist. One is there's a change that happens. Can you talk about the other two? I think there's only other two.
当我们进行改变，并专注于这些改变时，我们能够成倍地增加故事的普遍吸引力，即便我们讨论的内容与受众没有直接关系。情感的吸引力会让人们与我们产生共鸣。这很有趣。在这个关于改变的思路上，我们还有一个关于什么构成好的故事的检查表。我认为这只有三个要点。首先是有一个改变发生。你能谈谈另外两个要点吗？我觉得就只有另外两个。
Well, the dinner test is probably one that you're thinking of. Yeah, that's right. Right. So the dinner test is the idea that when you're telling a story in a formal way, if you're performing on a stage or delivering a keynote or even delivering sort of a pitch to entrepreneurs or a sales pitch, essentially the story that you're telling should be very closely related to the story. You would tell someone if you were having dinner. Right. So there should be no sort of performance art included within your story or within your talk.
好的，所谓的晚餐测试可能是你想到的一个概念。对的，没错。晚餐测试的理念是，当你用正式的方式讲述一个故事时，比如在舞台上表演、发表主题演讲、向企业家推介项目或进行销售展示时，这个故事应该和你在晚餐时对朋友讲的故事非常相似。也就是说，你的故事或演讲中不应该包含任何表演成分。
So weird things that people do should not be done like opening a story with unattributed dialogue. So you're standing on stage and you open your story with Jim, it's time to come in for dinner. My wife said, like, that's just weird. We don't talk like that as regular people. So you should not speak like that ever. In the history of the world, you should never speak like that. But people do it all the time. It's it's this weird sort of appendage from childhood when bad writing teachers thought that this was a good idea or you start with a sound, which is very popular in like first grade, you teach, you teach kids to start with sound, mostly because teachers are not writers so they don't understand what writing actually is.
人们做的一些奇怪的事情不应该被效仿，比如在故事开头使用没有说明来源的对话。例如，你站在舞台上，用“吉姆，该进来吃晚饭了”开场，然后说是“我妻子说的”，这就很奇怪。正常人不会这样说话，所以你永远不应该这样说话。在整个历史中，你都不该这样表达。然而，人们却一直这样做。这是一种从童年延续下来的奇怪习惯，源于一些不好的写作老师认为这样很不错。比如，有些人习惯用声音作为开头，这在一年级很常见，因为老师不是作家，他们不了解写作的真正意义。
And so they open with stories with things like bang, the door opened. But if you and I were having dinner and you said, Hey, how was your day, Matt? And I said, well, let me tell you, Lenny, bang, the door opened. You would not have dinner with me again. So you have to be thinking that this is a slightly elevated version of the dinner story, meaning you're probably not going to be interrupted in the middle of your story. And you want to have a little more shape to it. And you want to avoid some of the verbal detritus that tends to fill our lives.
他们通常以“砰”地一声，门开了这样的故事开头。但如果我们在吃晚饭时，你问我：“嘿，马特，今天过得怎么样？”然后我回答：“让我告诉你，兰尼，砰地一声，门开了。” 那么你大概不会想再和我一起吃饭了。所以，这种故事风格是比在晚饭时讲故事要略显正式一些的。这意味着你在讲故事时可能不会被打断，同时你需要让故事更有结构，并避免一些在生活中常出现的无用之词。
You don't want to be saying, you know, and like I said, you know, all of that nonsense sort of should get pushed to the side. But essentially, people should feel like you're kind of speaking in a very natural way. So the dinner test is pretty important in that regard. Awesome. Yeah. So the lesson there is when you're telling a story, make it sure that it's something that you could potentially tell at a dinner party. Slightly elevated is the way you put it. Slightly elevated exactly.
你不希望总是说“你知道的”或者“就像我说的”，这些无关紧要的话应该被搁置一旁。但基本上，人们应该觉得你说话很自然。因此，所谓的“晚餐测试”在这方面非常重要。太棒了。所以这里的经验是，当你在讲故事时，要确保故事是你可以在晚宴上讲的内容。稍微提升一下讲述方式，就是这个意思。没错，稍微提升一下。
I think that third point you make is that it has to be your story. You can't be telling a story on behalf of someone else, maybe chat about that briefly. Right. So if you're telling a story about someone else, essentially, you might as well be telling fiction because that person's not in the room. And to the audience, they don't really exist unless they're, you know, if they can't see them, that person is just another human being who supposedly lives somewhere in the world or once lived in the world.
我认为你提到的第三点是：这个故事必须是你的自己的。你不能替别人讲故事，可以稍微谈一下这个。我觉得如果你讲的是关于别人的故事，那本质上几乎就是在讲虚构的东西，因为那个人不在现场。对观众来说，他们几乎不存在，除非他们能看到那个人，否则那个人只是另一个据说生活在这个世界上或曾经生活过的人。
And because of that, you are almost unable to express any vulnerability in your story. You can't reveal anything about yourself. And storytelling is one of the key parts of storytelling is to be vulnerable with your audience, meaning I'm going to say stuff in a meaningful way. I might say stuff that most people are unwilling to share in a public way, but I'm at least going to like offer up a little bit of my heart and mind. If I offer up the heart and mind of someone else that doesn't really require any vulnerability, the only vulnerability is I have to stand in front of people and talk, which I know is challenging for some people.
由于这种原因，你几乎无法在你的故事中表达任何脆弱之处。你不能透露任何关于你自己的信息。而讲故事的关键之一就是要对观众表现出脆弱，这意味着我要以有意义的方式说一些话。我可能会讲一些大多数人不愿意公开分享的事情，但至少我会献出一点我的心灵和思想。如果分享的是他人的心灵和思想，那其实不需要什么脆弱感，唯一的脆弱就是我必须站在人前说话，我知道这对一些人来说是一个挑战。
But that doesn't mean anything to the audience. We kind of don't care if you're having a hard time presenting if it's making you nervous. That doesn't mean much to an audience. What we really want is someone to open up their hearts and minds. So stories have to be about you in some way. This tricks where you can tell stories about other people by sort of taking that story and centering on yourself. You know, one of the examples I work with the children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors.
但这对观众来说没什么意义。如果你在演讲时感到紧张，我们有点并不在意。这对观众来说意义不大。我们真正想要的是有人能敞开心扉。所以，故事在某种程度上需要与你有关。这里有个技巧，你可以通过将别人的故事与自己联系起来来讲述故事。比如，我与大屠杀幸存者的子女和孙辈一起工作就是一个例子。
And in the past, what they would do is they would just tell the story of the Holocaust survivor who is often at this point passed away. And it really does feel like fiction, you know, a long time ago in a place that wasn't this a terrible thing happened. And there's a certain level of empathy and sympathy that you might feel. But what I teach them to do is to tell stories about themselves. And then at some point in the story about themselves, they're going to talk about how the experience of their parent or grandparent during the Holocaust has informed or changed their own life too. So they get to dip into some history, but that history is relevant to the storyteller. So it's no longer history. It's now something changed in me because something terrible happened to my parent or grandparent.
过去，人们通常会讲述大屠杀幸存者的故事，因为这些幸存者如今大多已经去世。这些故事听起来像是很久以前在一个遥远的地方发生的虚构事件。虽然我们可能会产生一定的同情和共鸣，但我教他们做的是讲述自己的故事。在他们讲述自己的过程中，会在某个时刻谈到父母或祖父母在大屠杀中的经历是如何影响或改变了他们自己的生活。这样一来，他们不仅仅是在讲述历史，而是展示历史对他们个人的重要意义。历史不再只是过去的事件，而是因为父母或祖父母遭遇的不幸，而在他们身上引发了改变。
Just as a tangent, you also have this funny useful checklist for how to tell vacation stories. Well, first try not to, right? I think that's step one. Do not tell vacation stories. Most vacation stories are just simply a recounting of your vacation at the expense of another person, right? So unless something happened on that vacation where you experienced one of these five second fundamental moments of change, nobody cares about and if something did happen, only be talking about the moment when it happened. So if I had a moment of change that took place on a Thursday night at dinner, right? That story is now going to take place on the Thursday night at dinner. And it's irrelevant that I'm in a rubah, right? The fact that I am on vacation is almost completely irrelevant to the story other than I may want to offer my location.
作为一个题外话，你还有一个有趣且实用的清单，告诉我们如何讲述度假故事。首先，尽量不要讲对吧？我认为这是第一步。不要讲度假故事。大多数度假故事只不过是你度假的简单复述，却让别人吃亏听你的故事。除非在度假期间发生了一些改变你人生的重大时刻，否则没人会在意。而如果真的发生了这样的事情，只讲当时发生的那一刻就行了。例如，如果我在周四晚餐时经历了改变的时刻，那么这个故事就仅限于周四晚餐时而已。而我在度假这件事基本上与故事无关，最多我可能会提及一下我所在的位置。
But I'm not going to talk about the beach the day before or the scuba diving or the plane. All of that goes away. We're telling moments in our lives and it doesn't matter where they happen. If your location is paramount to your story because you want people to know you were in a rubah, then you have to understand no one actually cares that you were in a rubah and you're just a terrible person for trying to like dump that on someone and use up their time so you can relive your vacation and perhaps humble brag about how much fun you have. This will be a good segment for people to send their friends if they want to tell them their vacation stories and like here's a tip for how to do this better. Exactly.
我不打算谈论前一天的海滩、潜水或飞行。所有这些都不重要。我们讲述的是生活中的片段，而地点并不重要。如果你的故事必须依赖特定地点，比如你想让别人知道你是在一个偏远的地方，你就得明白，其实没人关心你在哪里。如果你强迫别人听这些，只是为了重温你的假期或炫耀你玩得有多开心，那只会让人觉得反感。对于想跟朋友分享旅行故事的人来说，这是个不错的建议：如何更好地分享你的故事。确实如此。
And just understand why it needs to be on a Thursday in that dinner is the advice they're keep it very focused and small unless there's some really essential reason to share the context around the dinner. Yeah, exactly. The shortest version of every story is the best version of every story. Starting as close to the end of a story is always the best place to begin. So if I had a moment of realization during dessert, you know, in a restaurant in a rubah, I may never tell them I'm in a rubah. I might start my story with the dessert hits the table and my wife says something that causes me to begin thinking, right? And that would be the beginning of the story.
理解为什么需要在星期四举行晚宴，因为建议是尽量让它集中和小型化，除非有一些非常重要的原因需要围绕晚宴分享背景。是的，没错。每个故事的最简短版本就是每个故事的最佳版本。从故事结尾开始讲述，总是最好的切入点。所以，如果我在甜点时刻有所领悟，比如在某个餐馆里，我可能根本不会告诉他们我在那个地方。我可能会以甜点上桌开始我的故事，然后说我的妻子说了什么，让我开始思考。这就是故事的开头。
The fact that I'm on an island in the Caribbean may never come up in the entire story because it doesn't turn out to be relevant to the story. There's a lesson that another guest shared Wes cow about she calls it start when the bear starts eating your tent or something like that. Like jump to when the bear is eating your tent. Like don't do this whole introduction to why or how you got to this tent. It's just like the bear is eating her tent. That's where the story should start. Yes, Kervonigit said that. Kervonigit said start as close to the end as possible. He was talking about short stories written on the page, but it is a true story. It's a true notion in oral storytelling too.
虽然我在加勒比海的一个小岛上，但在整个故事中可能根本不会提到这一点，因为这对故事并不重要。另一位客人分享了一个教训，她称之为“从熊开始吃你的帐篷时开始”或者类似的意思。就是说，直接跳到熊正在吃你的帐篷这段，不要做那些冗长的开场介绍，比如你是如何到达这个帐篷的。故事应该从熊吃帐篷那一刻开始。是的，Kervonigit（科沃尼吉特）说过这一点。他曾提到，写短篇小说时，要尽量接近故事的结尾开始写。这一理念不仅适用于书面叙述，也适用于口头故事。
And it is of all the things I help people with their stories. The most frequent suggestion that I make for revision is you started your story in the wrong place. Okay, I want to shift to business context advice, but before we do that, there's another really important element of storytelling, which is having stakes and having important stakes. So could you just talk about what is a stake and why is it important to have stakes and then just what are examples of adding stakes to your story to make them more interesting? Sure. So stakes are essentially sort of what your audience should be worried about, what they should be wanting for you, what they should be concerned about, what they should be wondering about.
我帮助人们完善他们的故事时，最常给出的修改建议就是：“你从错误的地方开始了你的故事。” 好，现在我想转到商业背景的建议上去，不过在此之前，还有一个非常重要的讲故事元素，那就是“利害关系”，而且是重要的利害关系。那么，你能否谈一下什么是利害关系？为什么有利害关系很重要？另外，有哪些例子可以说明如何在故事中增加利害关系，从而让故事更吸引人呢？
当然可以。利害关系基本上就是你的观众应该关注的内容，他们希望你能实现的事情，他们应该担心的点，以及他们应该感到好奇的地方。
If your audience isn't wondering what you're about to say, they're no longer listening to you. And if you have to internalize that in a deep and fundamental way, when I work with people in business, they are constantly under this misconception that people want to hear what they have to say. You know, some vice-president marketing thinks that because they're a vice-president marketing, and everyone is sitting in a chair and looking at them that they automatically have that audience's attention. I assume all the time, 100% of the time, that no one wants to hear anything I have to say. And so I am relentless in my attempt to get the audience to be constantly wondering what the next sentence is.
如果你的听众不在想你接下来要说什么，那他们就不再听你了。我与商界人士合作时，经常发现他们误以为大家对他们的话感兴趣。比如，一位市场部副总裁可能会认为，因为自己是副总裁，大家坐在那儿看着他，他就自动拥有了听众的注意力。但我总是假设，没有人想听我说的任何话。因此，我会不懈努力地让听众不断想知道我下一句话会说什么。
And stakes are a big part of that. Stakes are, I wonder what's going to happen next. I'm worried about this guy. Will he get what he wants? Will he get his comeuppance because he seems like a kind of a jerk in the story. All of those things are stakes. What is that stake for the storyteller, the company, the product, whatever it is, and therefore what the audience is worried about as well? That's why Star Wars opens with a big spaceship shooting at a small spaceship. We don't even know who's on it yet, but we're already on the small spaceship side. We're already worried that a small spaceship is being shot at by a big spaceship, right?
赌注在这个过程中起到了重要作用。所谓赌注，就是指我想知道接下来会发生什么。我担心这个人。他能得到他想要的吗？他会因为在故事中表现得有些讨厌而受到应有的惩罚吗？所有这些都是赌注。讲故事的人、公司或产品等面临什么样的赌注，因此观众也在关注什么？这就是为什么《星球大战》一开始是一个大飞船攻击一个小飞船。我们甚至还不知道小飞船上有谁，但我们已经站在小飞船那边，我们已经开始担心小飞船被大飞船攻击了，对吗？
That's why stories start this way. Alfred Hitchcock has a movie where it opens with a police officer chasing a man across a roof. We don't know who to root for, but something is at stake here, and now we're wondering what's going to happen next. We have to do the same thing with our ordinary true life everyday stories. We have to put stakes into stories. There's something that you teach around surprise and the power of surprise as a part of stakes. I forget exactly what that is, is there a ring of bell?
这就是故事以这种方式开场的原因。阿尔弗雷德·希区柯克有一部电影，开头是一个警察在屋顶上追赶一个人。我们不知道该支持谁，但明显有一些重要的事情发生，现在我们开始好奇接下来会发生什么。我们在讲述自己平常的真实生活故事时，也必须这样做。我们要在故事中加入关键因素，让人悬念丛生。你教过一些关于惊喜以及惊喜在故事中重要性的内容。我不太记得那些具体是什么，你能提醒我吗？
Well, I'll separate them really. With stakes, there's lots of ways to insert stakes. I always say you should have what I call an elephant at the beginning of the story, which is actually a big spaceship shooting at a little spaceship or a police officer chasing a guy across a roof. We have to immediately know that something is at stake. We have to be worried about something. In my little Ileane story that I told you, I said, I'm teaching math, and I've got this student, and I'm worried about her because I want to call her to the board, but I know she might lack some confidence.
好的，我将它们分开来讲。关于设置紧张气氛，有很多方法。我总是说，你应该在故事开头设置一个我称之为“大象”的东西，这实际上可能是一个大飞船在攻击小飞船，或者警察在屋顶上追一个人。我们必须立刻知道有事情在紧张进行，我们必须立刻感到担心。在我给你讲的那个关于Ileane的小故事中，我提到，我在教数学，并且我有一个学生，我很担心她。因为我想叫她到黑板上解题，但我知道她可能缺乏自信。
Right away, I have to make it clear what kind of story we're in. In a movie, you get a trailer. You don't often go to a movie and not have any awareness about what's about to happen, but when you open your mouth to begin telling a story, nobody knows what you're going to say. You need to land something immediately that causes an audience to go, oh, okay, what's going to happen here? That's an elephant. That's like plant some big thing in the beginning of a story. It doesn't actually have to be what the story is about either. Sometimes it takes a little time to get to what the story is about, but your plant's something there to at least get the audience to be worried.
首先，我必须清楚地说明我们要讲述的是一个怎样的故事。在电影中，你会看到预告片。你很少会在对即将发生的事情毫无概念的情况下去看电影；但当你开口开始讲故事时，没有人知道你要说什么。你需要立即抛出一些东西，让观众产生兴趣，好奇接下来会发生什么，就像在故事开头埋下一个巨大的“悬念”。这个悬念不一定非得和故事的主题直接相关。有时需要一些时间才能揭示故事的核心，但你至少要埋下一个让观众感到关注的重要元素。
Then you can use some other tricks. I call something called the Backpack, which is you tell the audience what your plan is before you carry out your plan so that they sort of have your hopes and dreams packed up with them as well. If you watch an Ocean's 11 movie, you know what the plan is before they go into the casino. As the plan goes awry, you can go, oh, no, because you know what the plan is. If you didn't know what the plan was, you would not be able to go, oh, no, right? So that's sort of like loading your audience with your hopes and dreams so that they can feel those stakes.
然后你可以使用一些其他的技巧。我称之为“背包”策略，也就是在执行计划之前，先告诉观众你的计划是什么，这样他们就能把你的希望和梦想一起装进“背包”。如果你看过《十一罗汉》这类电影，你会发现他们在进入赌场前，就已经了解到了计划内容。当计划出错时，你会感到意外，因为你知道原本的计划是什么。如果你不知道计划是什么，你就无法感受到惊讶和紧张。这个技巧就像是把你的希望和梦想装进观众的“背包”，让他们也为这些事情感到紧张和兴奋。
They can actually be hoping for you as well. There's things like bread crumbs where you offer a little bit of a little bit of what's going on, but not the complete idea, sort of like drop a hint. You know, the classic one is sort of like the gun. You know, there's a gun in the room and you know there's a gun in the room and it seems like it's not going to be relevant, but if you have a gun in the room, you know it's going to eventually go off. There's something going on there. That's like a breadcrumb.
他们实际上也可能在期待你。就像面包屑一样，你透露出一点点正在发生的事情，但不是完整的想法，类似于给个暗示。你知道，经典的例子就像房间里有把枪。你知道房间里有枪，开始时它似乎毫无关系，但如果房间里有枪，你就知道它最终会被用上。这就是类似面包屑的暗示。
Eventually, we're going to get to that gun. Don't worry. It's going to happen. There are hour glasses, which is sort of when you get to the moment where everyone is about to discover what's going to happen. That's the moment to slow time down. You load your story with details because suddenly you know you have the audience on the edge of the seat and you want to leave them on the edge of their seat as long as possible. When I know my audience wants to hear the next sentence, that is when I prolong the arrival of the next sentence.
最终，我们会讲到那个枪，别担心，这是一定会发生的。有些时刻就像沙漏，所有人都快要揭晓即将发生的事。就是在这个时刻，你想要把时间放慢。在这时候，你用细节充实你的故事，因为你知道观众正坐在椅子边缘，想让他们保持这种状态尽可能久。当我知道观众想听接下来的句子时，我就会故意拖延一下，让下一个句子来得慢一些。
By I say turning over an hour glass and letting the sand run for a while and making them wait for it. There's crystal balls where you can predict a future. You don't have to predict an accurate future. You can just predict any future. So you know, I could have said something in the Ileane story like, if I get this wrong, Ileane's going to begin to cry. She's going to cry in front of 22 kids. 22 kids who for the rest of the year will continue to stare at this girl and remember the moment she cried. That's a crystal ball. That's me predicting a terrible future. Because I put that terrible future in the audience's mind, now they're worried. So that is a stake. I have planted a false stake, a false future, but they're going to be worried about it because it's also a realistic future.
通过我说翻转一个沙漏，让沙子流淌一段时间，让他们等待。就像水晶球可以预测未来。你不必预测一个准确的未来，你可以只是预测任何未来。比如，我可以在 Ileane 的故事中说，如果我搞错了，Ileane 会开始哭泣。她会在 22 个学生面前哭泣。22 个孩子将在这一年余下的时间里继续盯着这个女孩，记住她哭泣的那一刻。这就是水晶球。这是我在预测一个可怕的未来。因为我把这个可怕的未来植入了观众的心中，现在他们担心了。这就是一个赌注。我种下了一个虚假的赌注，一个虚假的未来，但他们会担心，因为这同样是一个现实的未来。
So all of those things are used to continue to get the audience to wonder what's going to happen next, which is a little different than surprise. Surprise is just that beautiful, delightful, amazing moment where the audience didn't see something coming. And then it was almost like it was inevitable. Surprise happens and they understand why it happened. And I think it's the best thing you can ever offer an audience as a moment of surprise. And every story has a surprise, at least one, because whenever we suddenly realize something for the first time, right, I hate the word suddenly, but what happens is we used to not think something and then we think a new thing. And that's often a surprise for us.
所以，所有这些元素都是用来让观众持续好奇接下来会发生什么，这有点不同于惊喜。惊喜是那种美妙、愉快、令人惊讶的时刻，观众完全没有预料到它的到来。但随后又会觉得这仿佛是必然的。惊喜发生后，观众理解其缘由。这种惊喜时刻是你能给予观众的最好体验。每个故事都有惊喜，至少一个，因为每当我们第一次突然意识到某件事情时——对，我不太喜欢“突然”这个词——在那一刻，我们从未想到的事情突然出现在脑海中，对我们来说常常是个惊喜。
If we make it a surprise for the audience, too, that's a delightful thing. So surprise is so powerful and wonderful and always ruined by story tellers. I was just listening to an interview with I think his name is David Mammoth. And he made this point that endings of books and movies is always has to be both inevitable and also complete surprise. Yes, both of those things. So inevitable means there has to be enough information placed earlier in the story so that when the surprise happens, the audience goes, yes, right? But also you have to be clever enough to plant that information in such a way that the audience doesn't see the surprise coming. You build information into the audience's mind that will allow the surprise to land in an inevitable and yet surprising way.
如果我们能让观众也感到惊喜，那就太好了。惊喜是如此强大和美妙，但常常被故事叙述者毁掉。我最近听了一次采访，里面提到一个观点，似乎是大卫·马梅特说的：书籍和电影的结局必须既是不可避免的，又是完全出人意料的。对，这两点缺一不可。所谓不可避免，是指在故事的前面部分放置足够多的信息，这样当惊喜出现时，观众会觉得“是这样的，对吧？”但同时，你也必须足够聪明，将这些信息巧妙地植入，使观众看不出惊喜的端倪。你要把信息植入观众的大脑中，这样当惊喜来临时，它既显得不可避免，又让人始料未及。
That is the best surprise you can offer someone. These are said then done. Yes, well, there's lots of tricks to do that as well, but it takes some time. But essentially what you end up doing is you're hiding the information that they need to know in a multitude of ways so that when it lands, they go, oh my gosh, A, B, C, D, they don't connect it until the surprise hits. And then they go, of course, A, B, C, D. So you place A, B, C, and D in a story, but you don't place it in such a way that they can connect the dots until you want them to connect the dots. I feel like that's a whole other hour of podcast conversation to figure that out.
那是你能给某人的最佳惊喜。这些话容易说但难以做到。是的，要做到这一点有很多技巧，但需要一些时间。基本上，你要做的是以多种方式隐藏他们需要知道的信息，以便当这些信息出现时，他们会惊呼：“天哪，A、B、C、D ！”在惊喜到来之前，他们不会将这些信息联系起来。当他们意识到时，会想到“当然，A、B、C、D”。所以，你把 A、B、C 和 D 放在故事里，但不会以一种让他们提前连接这些信息的方式进行安排，而是等到你想让他们连接时再这样做。我觉得这个话题可以单独做一个小时的播客来深入探讨。
That's like ninja level, next level storytelling, which is very teachable. It's not set like everything I say is very, very teachable and doable by anybody, but yes, it's a trickier thing to accomplish. Yeah, okay. That'll be for our second podcast episode. Just to summarize, there's you kind of shared I think five ways to add stakes, just to summarize, one is crystal ball. You basically predict the bad thing that'll happen if you do them do this thing. Hourglass, which is when something, you know, is about to happen slow time down. I think of pulp fiction and Tarantino in this often of just like, you know, some violence is about to happen and they go next door and like, let's just eat a cheeseburger instead for a while.
这就像忍者级别，属于更高层次的讲故事方法，而且是很可以传授的。并不是说我说的每件事都非常、非常容易传授和实现，但确实，这是个比较复杂的事情。好的，那我们就留到第二期播客再讨论。总结一下，你分享了五种增加故事悬念的方法。第一种是"水晶球法"，即预见如果你这样做，将会发生不好的事情。第二种是"沙漏法"，当你知道将要发生某事时，将时间放慢。我常想到《低俗小说》和昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的作品，比如你知道暴力场面即将发生，但他们却转身去隔壁，先来吃个汉堡包。
Yeah. And then this backpack idea of like, they know exactly what you're trying to do and it's on you in the entire movie. Bread crumbs, or you kind of give them a little bit of information along the way. I think maybe that's it. Maybe there's one more. And then the elephant at the beginning. The elephant, just like the big ol' here's the stake. I always gotta have something. I heard some advice in either your book, a different book about adding stakes is just, anything just drop a dead body. Every new dead body is additional stakes that are added to the story. I don't know how often people can do that and it's random stories.
好的，然后这个背包的概念就像是，他们完全了解你在电影中试图做什么，而这责任全在你身上。一路上，你可以给他们一点点线索或信息。我觉得大概就是这样。也许还有一个东西，就是开头的“那头大象”。大象就像是巨大的赌注。我总是要一些东西。我听说过一些建议，无论是在你的书中，还是在其他书中，说添加赌注的办法就是，随时扔一个死尸进去。每一个新的死尸都是给故事增加的附加赌注。我不知道人们能多经常在各种故事中这样做。
Right, but what you can take from that is so often people load the front end of a story with all of the stakes because they're worried that the audience will not pay attention to them. So they think I'm gonna throw everything right in front and that'll hold an audience for the rest of the story and that's a mistake. What we want is stakes continue to build throughout a story. So dropping a dead body really means drop a new stake. Don't load it all. Don't front load it. Give us something to wonder about and then gauge when we need the next thing to wonder about and spread out those stakes. We need most of the stakes to occur within the first half of a story. Ideally, the second half of the story is now the role, of course, to the end. So we might drop one in there at an appropriate time or just through plot. Sometimes they just happen to need to be in a place.
好的，但从中你可以注意到，很多人常常在故事的开头部分加上所有的重要因素，因为他们担心观众不会对故事产生兴趣。他们认为把所有吸引人的东西一开始就抛出来，可以让观众持续关注到故事的结尾，但这是个错误。我们希望的是故事中的紧张和悬念可以不断累积。因此，抛出一个重大事件实际上是加入一个新的紧张因素，而不是把所有的都集中在开头。我们需要一些悬念来吸引注意，然后适时引入下一个悬念，并将这些紧张因素分散开来。大部分的重要情节应该发生在故事的前半部分。理想情况下，故事的后半部分就是朝着结局推进的过程。我们可能会在适当的时候引入一个新的情节高潮，或者通过情节的发展自然出现一些紧张瞬间。
But so often I hear people front load stakes because they're worried about audience attention. Just to give people something concrete to think about when they're thinking about this area. Is there a story of yours that's online that we can point people to to see an example of really good stakes in action? So the one that I reference in my book, which you can go watch online, is charity thief. And it needs a lot of stakes because two-thirds of the story, nothing really happens. Two-thirds of the story is explaining how I end up on a porch. And so that's not super entertaining unless I build in lots of stakes along the way. I'm not inventing anything. I'm just presenting the actual events in a way that makes you wonder what's going to happen next.
我经常听到有人在故事开头增加紧张感，因为他们担心观众的注意力。为了让人们在考虑这个问题时有一个具体的案例可参考，有没有你写的故事可以提供给他们，作为出色地运用了紧张感的例子？在我的书中提到的一个例子，是可以在线观看的《慈善小偷》。这个故事需要大量紧张感，因为其中三分之二的部分没有实际的事件发生。三分之二的故事是在解释我是如何到达一个门廊的。如果不在过程中加入足够的紧张感，这段内容可能没那么吸引人。我没有虚构任何事情，只是以一种让人想知道接下来会发生什么的方式呈现了实际事件。
And so there's an elephant in the beginning of that story, which is actually not what the story is about because I say the elephant can change colors along the way. But it gives you something to wonder about. And along the way, I know I use a backpack and I use a breadcrumb and an hourglass and a crystal ball. I do it all in that story mostly because it's not super entertaining. Some stories you don't have to worry so much about. I perform as a stripper in the break room of a McDonald's restaurant when I'm 19 years old for a bachelor at party. There are stakes in that story, but I don't need to put any of them in because everybody wants to know what's going to happen all right. Sometimes you just have a story that the stakes are already prebuilt because the ridiculousness of the moment.
在那个故事的开头有一只大象，但实际上故事并不是关于大象的，因为我说这只大象可以在过程中改变颜色。但这一设置会让你有些好奇。在这个过程中，我知道我用到了背包、面包屑、沙漏和水晶球。我把这些元素都放进故事里，大部分是因为故事本身并不是特别有趣。有些故事对细节不需要太操心。我在19岁时曾在麦当劳的休息室为一个单身派对表演脱衣舞。那个故事中有一些紧张的情节，但我不需要刻意去强调，因为大家都很想知道接下来会发生什么。有时候，一个故事自带高潮和起伏，因为情境本身就很荒谬。
But most of our stories are not like that. Most of them are far more benign and we have to sort of jack up the stakes by using some tricks to get people to the point we want them to be in. That's stripper story. I've also watched and I love Enroll Boine to it and I love it's connected to another piece of advice here. We share people just say yes to stuff and the power of yes. I don't want to get into it yet. I want to come back to that. We'll leave that breadcrumb. Yeah. But I love that point. Okay, so let's let's transition to helping people in business learn all these skills and translate them to becoming better in their work and maybe actually to add some stakes. What benefits do people get? Slash what problems do they run into if they aren't creative storytelling versus if they are learn the skill and get implemented at work? What what happens? What good things come out of that?
但我们的多数故事并不是那样的。大多数故事要温和得多，我们必须用一些技巧来提升故事的紧张感，以达到我们希望听众到达的情感状态。这就是所谓的“脱衣舞故事”。我也看过，并且对此非常喜欢，同时喜欢将它与另一个建议联系起来。我们通常鼓励人们对新事物说“是”，这就是“是”的力量。我现在不想详细说这个，以后再回过头来讨论。在这里先留下一个线索。不过，我很喜欢这个观点。好，让我们转向帮助那些在商业领域的人学习这些技巧，并将其运用到工作中，这样可以让他们表现得更好，也许还可以增加一些紧张感。对于那些不具备创造性叙事能力的人，与那些学会并在工作中实施这种技能的人相比，会有怎样的得失呢？具备这种技能能带来什么积极的结果？
Well, if you don't tell stories as part of your business whether you're looking for investment or speaking to your people or speaking to customers or clients anything, if you're not telling stories, the good news is you're just like everybody else. The bad news is you're mediocre just like everybody else. You're in a lane that everyone else is in which means that you're going to be forgettable. I often say most communication in business is round white and flavorless. Intentionally so because a lot of people are afraid to stand out. When I try to get people to tell stories, everyone loves the word storytelling in business. It's a huge buzz word. They love to think of themselves as storytellers. But when they come to me, they don't really want to be storytellers. Because to be a storyteller means you have to separate yourself from the herd and in their mind that risks them getting picked off, getting picked off by some predator.
如果你在做生意时不讲故事，比如在寻找投资、与员工、客户或来访者交流时不讲故事，那么好消息是：你和其他人一样。坏消息是：你平庸，就像其他人一样。你在一个大家都待的轨道里，这意味着你的存在让人容易遗忘。我常说，大多数商业沟通都是平淡无味的，这并非偶然，因为很多人害怕与众不同。我试图让人们讲故事，大家都喜欢把“故事讲述”当成商业中的流行词，喜欢把自己想象成说故事的人。但当他们找到我时，他们其实并不真的想成为讲故事的人。因为成为一个讲故事的人意味着你必须从人群中脱颖而出，而在他们心里，这会带来被某种“掠食者”盯上的风险。
But the alternative is you're in the herd, which means you're forgettable. I mean, how many times have you gone to a conference, listened to someone speak, and by the time you're pulling into the driveway, you really can't remember anything that they said. My wife and I actually attended an educational conference recently. She's a teacher. I'm a teacher. There was a bunch of speakers. The first person came out with his childhood lunch box, put it on a table, and told a story about how his parents had nothing while he was growing up. And yet they somehow kept him in new shoes and a new backpack every year and sent him to school with a lunch every day. And how much it meant to him and how as an educator today, he thinks about every single kid in his class like he was a kid who had nothing except for all of his parents' hopes and dreams.
但如果选择另一种方式，你就会淹没在人群中，这意味着你很容易被遗忘。我是说，有多少次你去参加一个会议，听完某人演讲后，在驱车回家的路上，你已经记不得他们说了什么。我和我妻子最近参加了一个教育会议。她是老师，我也是老师。会议上有很多演讲者。第一个演讲者带着他儿时的午餐盒登台，把它放在桌子上，讲述了一个关于他父母在他成长过程中一无所有的故事。然而，他们总是设法每年给他买新的鞋子和背包，并每天让他带着午餐去上学。这对他意义重大，如今身为一名教育者，他看待班上每个孩子时，就好像他们都是一无所有，除了父母的所有希望和梦想。
And I'll never forget that story because it was a story. It was a story of vulnerability and humor and meaning. It was another person who spoke, a sort of executive, who will say, and he did a great job in terms of being fluent and presenting ideas and speaking well and speaking confidently. And 15 minutes after the conference, I said to my wife, who is a teacher and understands storytelling because we do it together, I said, what'd you think? And she said, well, I'm never going to forget that guy with the lunch box. And I said, I will not either. And I said, what did you think about the other guy? And she goes, he was great. And I said, so what did he say? Fifteen minutes after, and she went, you know, I actually can't tell you a single thing he said. Right? This is a woman who's a teacher and invested in storytelling and communication. Her impression was he was fluent. He was amusing. You know, he said some numbers. He said some things that seemed to mean something, but it was all forgotten because that's what happens if we don't speak in story.
我永远不会忘记那个故事，因为它本身就是一个故事。那是关于脆弱、幽默和意义的故事。还有另外一个人发言，他是一位高管，表现得非常流利，擅于表达想法，讲话自信，大方。这场会议结束15分钟后，我问我妻子——她是一位教师，对讲故事的艺术很有研究，因为我们经常一起探讨——我说，你觉得怎么样？她回答说，我永远不会忘记那个带午餐盒的家伙。我也说，我也是。然后我问她对另一个人的看法，她说，他表现得很好。我继续问，那他都说了些什么呢？在会议结束15分钟后，她竟回答说，其实我记不住他说的任何一句话。对吧？她是一位致力于讲故事和沟通的教师，她的印象是，那位高管讲话流利，也很幽默。他提到了一些数字和看似有意义的事情，但因为没有用故事的方式来表达，全都被遗忘了。
Our minds are not designed to remember a pie chart or facts or statistics or, you know, platitudes or ideas that are not attached to imagery. So the risk you take if you're not telling stories is that you will be forgotten 100%. You will be forgotten. When people hear this, they may think like, oh man, there's this guy at work, and he's always like telling stories and we’re like, shut up. Just tell me what we need to do to make it a little more real or just like, what does storytelling look like? Where it's not annoying. It's not like, okay, everyone, gather around. Let me tell you the story of our vision. What are some simpler ways? And I guess maybe not knowing ways to think about what storytelling looks like in the workplace that's not just, I'm probably speaking like, hey, everyone, I'm going to give you a couple of examples.
我们的头脑并不擅长记住饼图、事实、统计数据或那些不带有图像的空话或想法。因此，如果你不讲故事的话，你有可能会被完全遗忘。当人们听到这句话时，可能会想到：“噢，有个同事总是讲故事，我们觉得烦，他就不能直接告诉我们需要做什么吗？”那么，怎么样讲故事才能显得不那么烦人呢？它不需要大家坐成一圈，然后说：“大家来听听我们的愿景故事。”有没有更简单的方法？在工作场合，该如何更实际地运用讲故事，而不是像训话那样说：“嗨，各位，我来给你们举几个例子。”
I have a storytelling book coming out next year on business, so there's a couple of heroes in that story. One of them is named Boris. His name is Boris Levin. He is a factory owner here in Connecticut. He's the one who convinced me I could start working with business. I thought it was just a storyteller who spoke about himself on a stage, and Boris one day saw me for some fundraiser and said, listen, I want you to come and help me. And I said, I can't do that. I just tell them using stories about myself. And he said, no, no, you can help me. And it turns out he was totally right. So Boris has done it the right way. Boris has decided to become a storyteller who will then translate his stories into his business.
我明年将出版一本关于商业的故事书，其中有几个主人公，其中一个叫鲍里斯。他的名字是鲍里斯·莱文，是康涅狄格州的一位工厂老板。他是那个人，让我相信自己可以开始与商业合作。我原以为自己只是一名在舞台上讲述自己故事的讲述者。一天，在一次筹款活动中，鲍里斯看到了我并对我说：“听着，我希望你来帮我。”我回答道：“我做不到，我只会用自己的故事演讲。”他却说：“不，不，你可以帮我。”结果证明他完全正确。鲍里斯以正确的方式实现了这一目标，他决定成为一个讲故事的人，然后将他的故事转化为商业。
So a great example was one of Boris's early stories. He came to me and he said, my son was at bat in the Little League championship game. The bases were loaded. If my son got a hit, the team was going to win the championship. And if my son struck out, the team would lose the championship. So three and two count. It is like the ultimate baseball moment, and his son strikes out. And he watches his son drag that bat back to the dugout. And he's devastated. His son's devastated, and Boris is devastated. And so he's trying to collect himself so he can figure out the right thing to say to a boy who's just lost the championship for his team.
一个非常好的例子是鲍里斯早期的一个故事。他告诉我，他的儿子在小联盟锦标赛的比赛中上场打击。此时球场上已经满垒，如果他的儿子能打出一击，他所在的队伍就能赢得锦标赛；如果他被三振出局，队伍就会输掉锦标赛。当时局面是三好两坏，这是一个绝对经典的棒球时刻，但他的儿子被三振出局。他看着儿子拖着球棒走回休息区，心情非常沮丧。他儿子也很沮丧，而鲍里斯同样感到失落。他努力让自己平静下来，以便能找到合适的话语来安慰刚刚为球队输掉比赛的儿子。
By the time he makes it onto the other side of the field to catch up with his son, he sees his son running up the hill with his friends, and they're already laughing. They're heading to the cars so they can go to ice cream and they can enjoy themselves. And so Boris is falling apart. He is still devastated, but his son has already moved past the failure. Boris takes that story and he crafts it as a beautiful story that he could tell on a stage and perform and make an audience laughing, crying. Once the story is done, he says to me, so what are we going to do with it? How are we going to apply this to business?
当他终于穿过田地想赶上他儿子的时候，他看到儿子已经和朋友们一起跑上小山丘，并且他们已经在欢笑着。他们正去往汽车，打算去吃冰淇淋享受一下。而此时，鲍里斯却感到快要崩溃，依然沉浸在失败的痛苦中，但他的儿子已经从失败中走了出来。鲍里斯将这个故事打造成一个美丽的故事，可以在舞台上讲述，通过表演让观众欢笑、落泪。当讲完故事后，他问我：“我们要怎么利用这个故事呢？我们如何将它应用到业务中？”
And ultimately what happens is this: he's got a sales team. And quite often, salespeople do not land the big account they're hoping to land. And Boris knows that when his salespeople fail to achieve what they want to achieve, they will often sulk. For days, they'll sort of wander around the office and be useless because they're still trying to get past the fact that they just lost the million-dollar contract. So he tells the story about his son and he says, listen, there's nothing wrong with being sad, being upset with failure, but we cannot allow it to slow us down as much as we are right now. We have to think about my son. My son dragged his back back to the dugout. He sat down, he sighed, his buddies padded him on the back, he collected himself and he moved on. That's what we need to do. When we fail, we're going to take a moment to collect ourselves, to think about the mistakes we made, to decide what we're going to do differently, and then we're going to move on.
最终发生的情况是这样的：他有一个销售团队。通常情况下，销售人员没能赢得他们希望的大客户。而鲍里斯知道，当他的销售人员未能如愿以偿时，他们常常会闷闷不乐。好几天都在办公室里无所事事，因为他们还没有摆脱丢掉百万美元合同的现实。所以他讲了一个关于他儿子的故事。他说，听着，对失败感到难过、沮丧并没有错，但我们不能像现在这样让其拖慢我们的步伐。我们要想一想我的儿子。他在比赛中失误后默默走回选手席，坐下，叹了口气，队友们轻拍他的背以示安慰，他平复心情然后继续努力。这就是我们应该做的。失败时，我们可以花一点时间反思，总结犯下的错误，决定接下来如何改进，随后继续前进。
And that becomes a really important moment as a company. And it's much better than him standing up in front of his people and saying, listen, every time you guys fail to land the big sale, you wander around this office like you're dead and you're wasting our time. It ends today. Today, from now on, when you fail, you're going to move on, right, the story becomes something meaningful to everyone because it reveals something about Boris. He's a father, he's a father who cares about his son. He's the kind of father that most of us are in life, right? He shares of himself with his people and he creates a tangible vision of what the sales team can do. He does that all the time. He comes to me and he's not looking to solve problems through story. He's looking to develop stories that he can then deploy into his business, right?
这成为了公司一个非常重要的时刻。这比他站在员工面前说：“听着，每次你们没能拿下大客户，你们都像死了一样在办公室里晃来晃去，浪费我们的时间。这在今天就结束了。从今往后，当你们失败时，要继续前进。”要好得多。这故事对每个人来说都变得有意义，因为它揭示了有关鲍里斯的一些事情。他是一位父亲，一位关心自己孩子的父亲。他是我们生活中大多数人都是的那种父亲。他与员工分享他自己，并创造了一个关于销售团队能做什么的具体愿景。他总是这样做。他来找我时，不是想通过故事来解决问题，而是想开发可以在业务中运用的故事。
So I compare it, I say band-aids versus bricks. If you're building bricks, you're a storyteller that's capturing stories and building bricks that you can eventually deploy into business. If you're a band-aid person, which is fine, that happens. I have a problem that 90th story to solve it. Essentially, what I'm doing there is I'm putting a band-aid over a problem, but you're not becoming a better storyteller. You're just sort of using me as a consultant to help you generate a story that will solve a problem. That's fine, but you're going to need me the next time too. You're going to keep me eating me because you're not really becoming a storyteller. Boris is building bricks. He is building a vault of stories that he can then deploy into his business and he understands how to tell them and how to connect them to business.
我把它比作是创作“创口贴”还是“砖块”。如果你在“盖砖块”，说明你是一个能够捕捉故事并用这些故事来建造砖块的讲故事者，最终可以将这些故事应用到业务中。如果你是“创口贴”型的人，这也没问题，这种情况是会发生的。比如说我有个问题，需要第90个故事来解决。基本上，我是在问题上贴一个创口贴，但你并没有因此成为一个更好的讲故事者。你只是把我当作一个顾问，让我帮助你创造一个可以解决问题的故事。这没关系，但下次你还会需要我。你会一直需要我支持，因为你并没有真正成为一个讲故事者。而Boris正在“盖砖块”。他正在构建一个故事的库，可以将其应用到他的业务中，并且他明白如何讲述这些故事以及如何将它们与业务连接起来。
So that's something that you can do very easily. Another example, the other star of my book is a woman named Moshe Ratovsky. She used to be the director of corporate communications at Slack. And now she's sort of doing work on her own. But when she was with Slack, she and I were working closely together and she had to create the narrative that was going to compete against Microsoft Teams. Essentially, Microsoft came along and said, hey, we copied your product and it's free and everybody already has it. So Slack had to find a way to combat that and Moshe was the one in charge of doing it. That's why we connected. She found me and said, I need to tell a good story. Please help me tell a good story. So she crafted a brilliant narrative that worked fantastically. We worked really closely together and it came out great.
所以这是你可以非常轻松地做到的一件事。另一个例子是，我书中的另一个主角是一个名叫莫斯·拉特夫斯基的女性。她曾是Slack的企业传播总监，现在她有点在自己做事情。但当她在Slack工作时，她和我密切合作，她需要创造一个能与微软Teams竞争的叙述。基本上，微软模仿了Slack的产品并宣称这是免费的，而且人人都已经有了。因此，Slack必须找到一种方法来应对这种情况，而莫斯正是负责这个任务的人。这就是我们联系的原因。她找到了我，说需要讲一个好的故事，请我帮她打造一个好故事。莫斯成功构思了一个精彩的叙述，效果非常出色。我们紧密合作，成果非常理想。
The way she came up with that narrative was a Tuesday night. She had broken up with her boyfriend. She was alone. She was feeling pretty lonely. It was in the midst of the pandemic. She had two glasses of wine in her sitting alone on a Tuesday night. She suddenly had an inspiration. She wrote three words down on a napkin and those three words become the story that we develop that allows Slack to compete against Microsoft. When it comes time to her present that narrative, I say, what you're going to include the Tuesday night and the two glasses of wine and all that, right? And she's like, no, I'm not. That's not what we do in the corporate world. We do not insert ourselves into our narratives. And to her credit, she didn't put it in and it still worked brilliantly. She was fine.
她构思出这个故事是在一个星期二的晚上。她刚和男朋友分手，感到相当孤独，并且正值疫情期间。那个晚上她一个人喝了两杯葡萄酒，突然灵感涌现。她在餐巾纸上写下了三个词，这三个词成为了我们后来发展的故事，使得Slack能够与微软竞争。当她准备展示这个故事时，我问她，你会把星期二晚上和那两杯酒什么的都包括进去，对吧？她回答，不，我不会，这不是我们在公司里会做的事情，我们不会把自己插入到我们的故事中。值得称赞的是，她没有把这些过程放进去，但故事依然非常成功，她表现得很好。
But about a month later, she was presenting that same narrative to a smaller group, lower stakes. I said, let's just put it in. Just try it this time and to her everlasting credit, she did. She put in a 30-second anecdote about Tuesday night, two glasses of wine, feeling lonely in the middle of a pandemic. She said to me later, I can't believe the difference that that 30-second anecdote meant to the narrative. Because suddenly when I reached the end of the narrative, people wanted to talk to me. People came up to me. The first thing they said was, oh, God, I remember I was feeling the same way during the pandemic. People connected to her because instead of being a corporate monolith, sort of like Slack spokesperson without personality, which is what we tend to be in business. She was an actual human being who had an inspiration on the Tuesday night and then was bringing it forth in a meaningful way to an audience.
大约一个月后，她在一个小型的、压力较小的场合上再次讲述了同样的故事。我说，不如就把它加进去，这次试试看。值得称赞的是，她真的这样做了。她分享了一段30秒的轶事，讲述了一个周二晚上，喝了两杯酒，在疫情期间感到孤独。后来她跟我说，她无法相信这30秒的小故事竟然对整个讲述产生了如此大的影响。因为当她讲完后，人们开始愿意和她交流，走上前来对她说的第一句话是：“天啊，我记得疫情期间我也有同样的感觉。” 大家与她产生了共鸣，因为她不再是一个千篇一律的企业代言人，就像没有个性的Slack代言人，这在商业中很常见。而是一个有着真实情感的人，把周二晚上的灵感以一种有意义的方式带给了观众。
And from that point on, she always has been doing those things in story-tongues. She's always looking for a way in her narratives to insert herself or if she's working with a client, let's find a way that we can work the client into the story as well. Because people don't want to hear, spokespeople present information. They want to hear human beings connect with you and then offer you something that perhaps will have value. That is a really interesting lesson.
从那时起，她总是用故事的语言来做这些事情。她总是在她的叙述中寻找一种方式把自己融入进去，或者如果她是在为客户服务，她会想办法把客户也融入到故事中。因为大家不想只是听代言人提供信息，他们更希望听到真实的人与你交流，然后提供一些可能有价值的东西。这是一个非常有趣的经验。
So is your advice just when you're telling stories in business, try to find a way to make it personal about you as the person telling the story? Yeah, I have this tool I use with corporate folks called a personal interest inventory. It is a list of all the things that you should be saying about yourself and clever and strategic ways that I teach. And each one of them has sort of an addressable market. So how many people could this potentially hit and then the intensity of the connection?
所以你的建议是在商业中讲故事时，尽量找到一种方法使其与讲故事的人自身相关吗？是的，我有一个工具叫做个人兴趣清单，我会和企业人员一起使用。这个清单列出了你应该以巧妙和策略性方式谈论自己的所有内容。每一个内容都有一个潜在的市场，也就是可能会引起多少人的兴趣，以及这种连接的深度。
So for example, if you're married, you should always make it clear to people you're married, especially if you're a man. Because if you're a man and you're married, you're safer in the world because men are inherently just dangerous human beings. We just are. If you hear that there was a shooting, right, you never think, oh, I wonder if that was a 23-year-old blonde woman, right? You know who did the shooting almost all the time. So if you're married, what you're essentially saying to people is someone has agreed to spend theoretically their life with me. It's sort of like a validation that I have at least hygiene and some decency, right?
所以，比如说，如果你已婚，你应该始终向别人明确表示这一点，尤其是如果你是男性。因为如果你是个已婚男性，你在这个世界上会更安全一些，因为男性本质上就是有一定危险性的人。这就是事实。例如，当你听到有枪击事件发生时，你从不会想“哦，我想知道这是不是一个23岁的金发女郎干的。”你几乎总是知道是谁干的。所以，如果你已婚，这实际上是在告诉别人，有人愿意理论上和我共度一生。这有点像是对我至少具备一定卫生习惯和品行的验证。
So you, right. And most people are in a committed relationship. So that means that a total addressable market is large, right? If I say I'm married, you're either married also or you're in a committed relationship. So the connection is going to be large. The total addressable market is large. The possible connection probably moderate. I say it's like it's okay, but weird ones are like runners. I'm not a runner. And there's not a lot of runners in the world. But if you're a marathoner, right, your total addressable market is very small. There's not that many marathoners.
你的意思是，大多数人都处在一段稳定的关系中，这意味着潜在的市场规模很大。如果我说我已婚，那么你要么也是已婚，要么正处在一段稳定关系中。所以，这种联系的规模会很大，潜在的市场也很大，但可能的连接就相对适中。我觉得还可以，只是有些奇怪的是像跑步者。我不是跑步爱好者，全世界的跑步爱好者也不算多。但如果你是个马拉松选手，那么你的潜在市场就非常小，因为马拉松选手的数量不多。
But if you happen to find a marathoner, the intensity of that connection is enormous. Like marathoners are like almost automatically friends upon meeting what I've discovered. Like if you're just, oh, you ran a marathon. I ran a marathon. They're best friends already. And so if you've run a marathon and you're in a room and you discover someone else's run a marathon, you have to find a way to bring that out because the possibility of that connection is incredibly intense.
如果你碰巧遇到一位马拉松跑者，那种联系的强度是巨大的。我发现马拉松跑者几乎是自动成为朋友的。就像如果你说，哦，你跑过马拉松，我也跑过马拉松，那么他们已经像是最好的朋友了。所以如果你曾跑过马拉松，而在一个房间里发现另一个人也跑过马拉松，你一定要想办法让这一点显现出来，因为这种联系的可能性是极其强烈的。
So as a person in the corporate world, you should not be seeking to be round, white, and flavorless. You should be seeking to be like full of color and full of edge and full of flavor. You want to be an individual that people remember as opposed to what most people are trying to be, which is I am just operating this corporate or this business sphere. And I'm not trying to stand out, which is just a foolish thing to want to do.
作为职场中的一员，你不应该追求变得圆滑、平淡和无趣。你应该努力让自己充满色彩、棱角分明、富有个性。你希望成为一个让人记住的个体，而不是像大多数人那样，只是在职场或商业领域里扮演一个无特色的角色，不想突出自己。这种不想出彩的想法是不明智的。
I could see why people wouldn't naturally do this. Like if I'm ahead of comms for a company, the last thing I want is to make it about me. And what you're saying is you actually should because people find it a lot more interesting. Yeah, no, you don't want to make it all about you. But there's just little tricks. I mean, the easiest trick is, you know, if someone asks you, how are you doing today? If you say, I'm doing great, you've just really screwed it up. That's the stupidest answer you can offer.
我能理解为什么人们通常不会这样做。比如说，如果我是一个公司负责沟通的负责人，我最不想要的就是让事情变得以我为中心。而你所说的恰恰是你应该这样做，因为这样会让人们觉得更加有趣。是的，当然不想让一切都围绕自己，但其实有一些小技巧。最简单的技巧就是，比如有人问你今天过得怎么样？如果你说“我很好”，这其实是个很糟糕的回答，这是最愚蠢的回答方式。
Right? If you ask me, how am I doing today? I'm immediately going to think to myself, elementary school teacher is probably my best personal interest inventory item. Because if I'm an elementary school teacher, everyone loves me. They think I'm doing God's work even though they don't want to pay me a dime to do it. Right? So if you say, how are you doing today? I will say to you, pretty good. My fifth graders were actually decent human beings today. They didn't try to kill me. So in that way, I'm going to slip in the fact that I'm an elementary school teacher by answering your question. I'm going to demonstrate a bit of them using content in the process, right? And maybe a self-deprecation.
对吧？如果你问我今天过得怎么样，我会立刻想到，我可能会把小学教师这个身份作为我个人最有趣的标签。因为如果我是小学老师，大家都会喜欢我。即使他们不愿意为此付钱，他们也会认为我是在做上帝的工作，对吧？所以如果你问我今天怎么样，我会回答：还不错。今天我的五年级学生表现得还像是个正常人，至少没有想要搞死我。所以通过回答你的问题，我会巧妙地透露自己是个小学教师，并在这个过程中展示一些内容对吧？也许还会带一点自嘲。
But whenever I'm asked a question, I am trying to include an item of my personality, my life, something that might be of interest to people while also answering the question. You don't want to walk into a situation and say, hi, I'm a married elementary school teacher with two kids and two cats. But that's sort of what I want to do because I know that that's going to make people feel connected to me. So I have to find strategic ways to work it in. I teach people to do it all the time. But it starts with understanding what about you might mean something to other people and how can I get it in there without me sounding like I'm only talking about myself?
但每当我被问到一个问题时，我都会尝试在回答中加入一些我的个性、生活或可能吸引人们的内容。你不会想在一个场合中直接说：“嗨，我是一名已婚的小学老师，有两个孩子和两只猫。” 但这其实就是我想做的事情，因为我知道这样可以让人们感到与我有联系。所以我必须找到策略来巧妙地融入这些信息。我经常教人们这么做。但这首先需要了解你身上哪些特质可能对别人有意义，以及如何在不显得只是在谈论自己的情况下表达出来。
What else? So we're basically talking about ways to become a better communicator and storyteller in business. You've shared a few tidbits here. One is think of this personal inventory about yourself that makes you relatable. Try to share it in the stories you tell and presentations and things like that. What else can people do to become better storytellers in business? I know this is a big question, but let's see. Let's see what's your choice.
还有什么呢？我们基本上是在讨论如何提高在商业中的沟通和讲故事能力。你已经分享了一些小建议。其中一个是要考虑有关自己的个人经历，能让你更容易被他人理解和接近。尝试在你讲述的故事和演示中分享这些经历。那么，人们还可以做些什么来成为更好的商业故事讲述者呢？我知道这是一个很大的问题，但让我们看看你的选择是什么。
Let's go back to the idea that in business, you have to accept the fact that nobody wants to hear anything you have to say. That is not accepted by most people even after I say it. So once you understand that and once you truly believe it, there's essentially four ways to keep people listening to you in any story really, but especially in business because really no one wants to listen to you in business. So the first is stakes, which we've really talked about already. You have to have stakes. In every good product story and every good PowerPoint present to everything, there are stakes in their set out and exactly the way I've described.
让我们回到这个观点：在商业中，你必须接受这样的事实，即没有人想听你说什么。即便我说了这一点，大多数人仍然无法接受。所以，一旦你理解并真正相信这一点，实际上有四种方法可以让人们在任何故事中继续听你说，尤其是在商业领域，因为实际上在商业中没有人想听你说。那么，第一点就是"利益攸关"，我们之前已经谈到过这个。所有好的产品故事和优秀的PPT展示等都会有明确的利益攸关，并按照我描述的方法呈现出来。
All five of the stakes that I've described to you that I use in that story charity thief can also be used in every business story, every PowerPoint deck, every entrepreneur pitch, everything. So stakes is one of them. Another one we've talked about is surprise. There should absolutely be surprise in every talk that you give. Steve Jobs was a master of it. We could just we could look at one of his talks and I could show you how he planned it perfectly. Some others include suspense. So keeping an audience in suspense and often suspense leads to surprise.
我所描述的五个利害关系（stakes），我在那个名为“慈善小偷”的故事中使用的，实际上也可以运用于所有的商业故事、每一个PowerPoint演示、每个创业者的陈述上，等等。其中之一就是“利害关系”。我们还谈到了“惊喜”。在你进行的每一次演讲中，一定要有“惊喜”。史蒂夫·乔布斯就是这方面的大师。我们可以看他的一场演讲，我可以向你展示他如何完美地策划这些惊喜。还有其他几个要素，包括“悬念”。让观众保持悬念，通常悬念会引出惊喜。
So mastering the ability to be suspenseful and then humor like daring to be funny, which no one in corporate America can do. Everyone wants to be funny. Every person I have ever met who I've worked with, every business person in some way wanted to be funny, but that's really not actually what they want. They want to have been funny because being funny means you must take a risk. You must say something that you believe is funny and you expect an audience to also feel as funny. And if it doesn't happen that hurts.
所以，掌握制造悬念的能力，以及敢于幽默的勇气，是美国企业界中没有人能做到的。每个人都想要显得幽默。每一个我曾经合作过的人，每一个商业人士，都会在某种程度上想要幽默，但这实际上不是他们真正想要的。实际上，他们想被认为是幽默的，因为幽默意味着你必须冒险。你必须说出一些你认为好笑的话，并期望观众也觉得好笑。如果观众没有这种反应，那就会让人感到难堪。
And so people oftentimes tell me they want to be funny, but when I tell them how they need to be funny, they say, well, I can't say that. Right. They say, and then I say, well, that's the part that's funny. So I was working with a guy sort of an executive at a company that you interact with every day. And he was delivering a talk at the Javits Center and he was going to be funny. We built in a talk, lots of jokes. He was ready to go. He went to the Javits Center and four hours later he called me and I said, how did go? And he said, I pulled out all the jokes. I said, why did you pull out all the jokes?
很多时候，人们告诉我他们想变得幽默，但当我告诉他们怎么做才能幽默时，他们却说：“我不能那样说。” 我会告诉他们，“这恰恰是笑点所在。” 有一次，我和某家公司的一位高管合作，他是你每天都会接触到的公司。他要在Javits中心发表一个演讲，并计划在演讲中加入很多笑话。我们一起精心准备了他的演讲，他也准备就绪。四个小时后，他给我打电话。我问他演讲怎么样，他说他把所有笑话都删掉了。我问他为什么要删掉这些笑话。
And he said, the first two speakers weren't funny at all. I felt like if I went on stage and I was funny, I was going to stick out like a sore thumb. I said, no, you were going to like rise from the ashes, like a phoenix that everyone has been waiting to hear all day. It's the best thing in the world to follow two terrible people and then go out there and land some jokes. But again, he thought I have to stay within the confines of the herd rather than doing something different.
他说，前两个演讲者一点都不好笑。我觉得如果我上台并表现得很幽默，我就会显得很突兀。我告诉他，不，你会像凤凰涅槃一样，从灰烬中重生，成为大家期待已久的闪光点。跟在两个糟糕的演讲者后面上台，然后成功地讲一些笑话，是世界上最棒的事情。但他依然认为自己应该保持和大家一样，而不是与众不同。
But humor is a brilliant and beautiful and simple way to differentiate yourself, differentiate yourself from other people. But you have to be willing to try to do it. And it's just it's a scary thing for people. But I say, it's it's stakes, it's surprise, it's suspense, and it's humor. Those are the ways that you're going to hold people and keep them listening. And if you're not engaged in one of those four things while you're speaking, people are not listening to you anymore.
幽默是一种聪明、美妙而简单的方式，可以让你与他人区别开来。但你必须愿意去尝试。对很多人来说，这确实是一件让人害怕的事情。但我想说，吸引别人注意的方法包括紧张、惊喜、悬念和幽默。如果你在讲话时没有涉及这四个方面中的一个，人们就不会再听你说话了。
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To follow this thread on humor, which I was going to ask, what do you tell people to become more funny? What are some tricks? Well, I have currently 26 strategies to be funny. Some are better for business than others. I will give you two that we can use in business all the time. The first one you can use is nostalgia, because nostalgia is always funny. The fact that the first VCR I had was 22 pounds and had a remote control attached by a cord that was thick enough that I could trip my brother as he walked through the living room is funny.
要继续讨论幽默的话题，我本来打算问，您会如何建议人们变得更幽默？有什么技巧吗？目前我有26种使人发笑的策略，其中一些在商业中比其他的更合适。我将介绍两个我们可以在商业中经常使用的。第一个是利用怀旧情绪，因为怀旧总是能引发微笑。比如，我的第一个录像机重达22磅，且它的遥控器是通过一根足够粗的线连接的，这根线粗到足以让我绊倒正在客厅走路的弟弟，这就很搞笑。
The fact that I grew up and no one was allergic to anything, and we all, I bred packed with gluten and baked in asbestos factories and no one ever wore a helmet while they rode their bike. All of these things can be made to be funny. It's so easy in business, because oftentimes you are rolling out a new product or a new service or you're updating a product or service in a way that allows you to speak nostalgically about the past.
我成长的年代里，似乎没有人对任何东西过敏。我们吃着充满麸质的面包，在可能存在石棉的工厂里烘焙，没有人在骑自行车时戴头盔。这些事情都可以被讲得很有趣。因为在商业中，这真的很简单，因为你经常在推出新产品或新服务，或者以某种方式更新产品或服务，这让你能够怀旧地谈论过去。
I was working with this company and they failed me. They did not listen to my advice, which was a mistake. They're sort of like an indeed company. They're helping find employees for companies. They're one of these people. I wanted to start their narrative with the idea of in 1983, the primary source of employment was a 16 year old kid riding on the back of a shwin throwing newspapers at doors and in that newspaper, which was like a paper version of the internet, you would turn to the back page and on that page there was the help wanted ads.
我曾经在这家公司工作，但是他们让我失望了。他们没有听取我的建议，这是个错误。他们有点像一家公司，专门帮助其他公司寻找员工。他们属于这种类型的人。我想从1983年开始讲述他们的故事，那时候主要的工作来源是16岁的孩子骑着自行车把报纸扔到家门口。在那份报纸上，类似于纸质版的互联网，你可以翻到最后一页，在那页上有招聘广告。
That was essentially all you had to find a job in 1983. Everything was geographically based, meaning you only could look into three or four towns around you to find a job and it had to be in the paper and you had to own a phone connected to a wall so you could call a company within business hours and hope to get an interview. All of the power lived with the employers in 1983 and a 16 year old who was dropping a newspaper off at your porch every day. That's funny. I didn't even try to be funny with it. I just sort of stated the facts.
1983年找工作基本就是这样。那时一切都以地理位置为基础，也就是说你只能在周围的三四个小镇找工作，你需要通过报纸了解招聘信息，还必须拥有一部连着墙的电话，以便在工作时间内给公司打电话，期待能得到面试机会。1983年，掌握权力的是雇主和每天把报纸送到你家门口的16岁少年。这很有趣。我甚至没有刻意搞笑，只是陈述了事实。
We could have punched that up and made it really funny. Then we flipped the script, again, the opposites and story in the beginning employers had all the power. Today, employees have all the power because today you can work in Singapore or Chattanooga while you're living in Orlando. And today you don't have to wait for a 16 year old to deliver the paper with all of your job opportunities. Every single job opportunity on the planet is now accessible to you on the internet and you can work basically anywhere from anywhere.
我们本可以增强一下这个段子，让它变得非常有趣。接着，我们颠覆了设定：一开始是雇主掌握所有权力，而现在，员工掌握了一切权力。因为如今，即使你住在奥兰多，也可以选择在新加坡或查塔努加工作。而且，找工作的方式也变了，你不再需要等待16岁的小孩送来报纸，里面列有所有的工作机会。现在，全球的每一个工作机会都能通过互联网获取，你基本上可以在任何地方工作。
That's why we need companies like Indeed or the company I was working for because they have to actually gain some power for the employers. So that was the narrative we were going to tell in the beginning would have been funny. And the CEO of the company said, I don't like it. He said, nobody cares about the 1980s, which was the dumbest thing he could have said because Stranger Things was the biggest television show on television at the time, which was nothing but a 1980s.
这就是为什么我们需要像Indeed这样的公司或我曾任职的公司，因为他们需要为雇主实际获得一些权力。这本来是我们一开始要讲的故事，会很有趣。但公司CEO说，他不喜欢这个想法。他说，没人关心1980年代，这真是他能说的最糟糕的话，因为《怪奇物语》当时是最热门的电视剧，而它讲的全是1980年代的事。
And if he just looked around, he would see that 1980s fashion is coming back. 1980s music is being popularized again. We're remaking 1980s music all the time. Taylor Swift put out an album called 1989. Whether or not the 1980s are relevant or not, it's relevant to talk about the past as a company to demonstrate your expertise in your field, to understand that we know the market backwards and forwards for the last 50 years. We have expertise that we can demonstrate it by telling a story. So that's the power of nostalgia. And we can use that all the time in business to make people laugh.
如果他稍微留意一下，就会发现1980年代的时尚正在回潮，1980年代的音乐也重新流行起来。我们一直在重制1980年代的音乐。泰勒·斯威夫特推出了一张专辑，名字叫《1989》。无论1980年代是否还重要，作为一家公司，谈论过去用来展示你的专业能力是很有意义的。理解过去50年来的市场动态，我们拥有的专业知识就是一种讲述故事的能力。这就是怀旧的力量。在商业中，我们可以利用这一点来逗人发笑。
The other one I'll give you again, there's a whole bunch, but a simple one is a game they used to play on Sesame Street, which is one of these things is not like the other. Essentially it's three things. Two of them are expected and one is unexpected and the unexpected one will be funny. So you can say like, well, my competitor, they have this, my hardware competitor, the guy down the street, he does sell shovels just like I do. That's true. And he does offer a wide selection of nails just like I do, right? But there's a nameless faceless machine at the front of the room, at the front of the store that you have to swipe your own stuff through and your credit card. There's not actually a human being in the store. And we can make that funny, right? By showing that the third one is unlike the other two.
另一个例子我再给你讲一次，其实有很多种，但一个简单的例子是他们曾经在《芝麻街》上玩的一个游戏，叫做“这个东西跟其他不一样”。基本上来说，就是三个东西，其中两个是预期之内的，而一个是意料之外的，而那个意料之外的就会很有趣。你可以这样说，比如说，我的竞争对手，他有这个，还有那个，就像我一样卖铁锹，没错，他也提供种类繁多的钉子，就像我一样，对吧？但他们店门口有个没名没脸的机器，你得自己把东西刷过去，还有刷信用卡。店里面其实一个人也没有。我们可以通过展示第三个跟头两个不一样的地方让这个变得有趣。
So it's essentially a simple game once I've told it to you. You'll see every comic do it all the time. They just say, thing that's expected, thing that's expected, unexpected thing and you make it funny. So it's a simple trick that we use in business all the time. This is awesome. This list you're talking about is this going to be a new book that you're writing? I have not all 26 of them because some are not like the best business ones in the world, but a large number of them. I think I maybe have like the top 12 that work best in business in terms of humor.
这基本上是一个简单的游戏，一旦我告诉你，你就明白了。你会看到每个喜剧演员都经常这样做。他们通常会说：预料中的事情，预料中的事情，意想不到的事情，然后把它变得有趣。所以，这其实是我们在商业中经常用的一个简单技巧。这太棒了。你提到的这个清单会成为你正在写的新书吗？我没有列出全部26个，因为有些不是世界上最好的商业技巧，但有很多不错的。我想我大概有其中在商业幽默方面最好用的12个。
But you can just take a humor class. I teach humor all the time. I teach all 26 strategies. You know, it's something that can be practiced. The beautiful thing is so often many of the strategies that I offer in business. If it doesn't end up being funny, you're still telling a story. So nobody, it's not sort of like a, you know, babam, bom, cheng kind of joke. We're not telling those jokes. We're telling, we're telling humor in the confines of a story so that if this joke doesn't land, we're still telling a story. And oftentimes people don't even realize we were trying to be funny.
你可以去上一个幽默课程。我经常教幽默课程，并涵盖26种策略。幽默是可以练习的。有趣的是，我所教授的许多策略在商业中也很有用，即使最终没能引发笑声，你仍然是在讲一个故事。我们不是在讲那种“砰砰锵”的笑话，而是在故事的框架内融入幽默。如果一个笑话没有奏效，依然是在讲故事。很多时候，人们甚至没意识到我们是在尝试搞笑。
I'm going to come back to where story can help you in your work. So obviously giving a public talk is the classic you way to use this. Maybe giving a present like a PowerPoint deck and a meeting. Is there any other maybe non-obvious places that you think this skill can help you in that's not just like everyone. Welcome to my Well, I've worked with a lot of scientists in biotech and places like that. I worked with a biotech company. Five of their scientists were going to a conference. And essentially it's a company that sells tubes. All of their competitors sell a tube for experiments.
我要回到一个故事如何能帮助你工作的主题。显然，公开演讲是使用这种技巧的经典方式。也可能是在会议上通过PowerPoint进行展示。那么，还有其他一些不那么明显的场合可以利用这种技巧吗？不仅仅是那种常见的演讲场合。我曾经与很多生物科技领域的科学家合作，比如与一家生物科技公司合作。他们的五名科学家要出席一个会议。基本上，这家公司销售用于实验的管子，他们的所有竞争对手也是出售实验管子的。
And you have to sort of retrofit the tube to fit your needs. The company I was working with, they sell like 12 different versions of the tube better sized so you don't have to retrofit it. Much more expensive but the reliability of your experiments are improved by using their properly sized tubes. So I prepare all the scientists and they'll do a good job. They'll tell stories of some sort and they go off to their conference. One guy though doesn't present any data whatsoever. He just tells a story.
你需要对管子进行改造以适应你的需求。我之前合作的公司销售大约12种不同规格的管子，这样你就不需要自己改造了。虽然价格更贵，但使用这些合适规格的管子可以提高实验的可靠性。因此，我会为所有科学家做准备，他们会做得很好。他们会讲一些故事然后去参加他们的会议。不过，有一个人却一点数据都没展示，只是讲了一个故事。
He tells a story about going to the grocery store. And when he goes to the grocery store, his family is really annoying when it comes to apples because everyone likes a different apple. So he's going to go and he's going to buy 300 crisp for his wife and two gallifers daughter and they're baking a pie this week so they got to get some macintosh and he likes red delicious. He said it's a nightmare, you know, buying these apples. And so he tells that story about the nightmare of buying apples.
他讲了一个关于去杂货店的故事。每当他去商店时，他的家人在关于苹果的选择上总是很让人头疼，因为每个人喜欢的苹果都不一样。他的计划是要为老婆买300个脆苹果，为两个女儿买两个加里弗苹果。而且他们这周要烤一个派，所以还得买些麦金托什苹果，而他自己喜欢的是红元帅。他说每次买这些苹果简直是一场噩梦。所以他就讲了这个关于买苹果的“噩梦”故事。
And then he says that's what my company does. Right. There are companies that say we offer macintosh. Make do with it. You're going to make your pies. You're going to eat you're going to eat it. All of the things that you want to do with an apple, all you get is macintosh. Good luck. We believe you should have access to all the apples. We believe that you have particular needs and specific requirements. And we're going to make sure you have it just like my family gets all the apples they want.
然后他说，这就是我们公司的工作。对的，有些公司说我们提供的只有麦金托什苹果，将就着用吧。你要用它来做派，吃掉所有你想用苹果做的事情，你得到的只有麦金托什苹果。好运吧。而我们相信你应该能接触到所有种类的苹果。我们相信你有特别的需求和要求，我们会确保你能得到这些，就像我的家人可以得到他们想要的所有苹果一样。
So all he said a longer version of it, but that's it. No data. He got more leads at the conference than the other scientists combined. All the other four scientists combined. Now the vice president of marketing was not happy about this at all when I met with her because she's a scientist. She's 50 years old for her entire life. She's been sending scientists to conferences and presenting data. And she said to me, so what am I going to do? Send scientists to conferences now and not present data? And I said, well, I mean, maybe because it worked, right? And she said, well, what about the data? I said, now that he has the leads, you don't think they're going to want the data. Like he's going to get on the phone and they're going to say, tell us about the data. But now they've established a connection.
所以他的发言内容只是更长的版本而已，但就是这样，没有任何数据。他在会议上获得的潜在客户比其他科学家加起来还多。其他四位科学家加起来都没他多。当我和市场副总裁见面时，她对此非常不满意，因为她也是一名科学家。她五十岁，这辈子一直都是派科学家去会议上展示数据。她对我说，那我现在该怎么办？派科学家去会议上不展示数据吗？我回答说，也许，因为这个方法奏效了，对吧？她说，那数据呢？我说，现在他已经有了潜在客户，难道你不认为他们会想要数据吗？他会打电话过去，然后他们会说，告诉我们数据吧。但现在，他们已经建立了联系。
And the best thing about that story, the things you didn't even understand was every single time someone at that conference goes into a grocery store now and they're looking at apples. They're going to think about that company. And it's a positive feeling that they're going to have about that company. If they are forgotten to call, but they meant to call when they're picking out a honey crisp at the grocery store, they're going to make a note, oh, right, I got to call that company and look into the tubes that they sell, right? We create positive connections with items in the world related to our company by telling stories. And that means we've like built advertising into people's lives without them even being aware that we've done it. So there's a billion ways to add storytelling into business. It's just another one.
这个故事最棒的地方在于，即便在会议上那些你不太理解的细节，每当有人去超市时看到苹果，他们都会想到那家公司，并且会有一种积极的感受。如果他们忘了打电话，但本来是要打的，当他们在超市挑选一种叫'Honey Crisp'的苹果时，就会想起来：“哦，对了，我得打电话给那家公司，了解一下他们卖的管子。” 通过讲故事，我们与世界上的事物建立了和公司相关的积极联系。也就是说，我们在无形中把广告融入了人们的生活。有无数种方法可以将讲故事融入业务，这只是其中的一种。
You touched on this kind of two way approach. One is you have a problem. Let me think of a story to help me solve this problem versus I'm going to become a storyteller. Come up with this whole brick wall of stories and then I'll deploy them. You said that the first approach is not something you'd recommend. Imagine most people are probably going to be in that bucket. I don't want to be a storyteller. I just want to solve my problems and stories can sometimes help me there. So maybe in that bucket, do you have any advice for how to find a story that somehow helps you with that problem on demand? Or is it just like that is not going to work? You're not going to think of a story every time you have some problem.
你提到了这种双向方法。一个是你有一个问题，然后去想一个故事来帮助解决这个问题；另一个是想成为一个讲故事的人，先准备好一大堆故事然后再适时使用。你提到不推荐第一种方法，因为大多数人可能都在这个情境中：他们不想成为讲故事的人，只是希望通过某个故事来解决问题。那么在这种情况下，你有没有任何建议，如何在需要时找到一个能够帮助解决问题的故事？还是说这样的方法行不通，因为不可能每次遇到问题都能想到合适的故事呢？
I think sometimes you will. Like I have a company that calls me Metaphor man, the call me essentially and say, I get that. We've added a boring feature to our boring platform and we need to make people understand what it does. Will you give us the metaphor we need? They don't understand that I'm not really generating metaphors. I am just taking stories from my life, pulling myself out of the story. And if you take yourself out of a story, often what's left is a metaphor, assembly, an example. And then I just offer that to them. So they, and I tell them if you just use some of my storytelling and generating techniques, you could do the same thing, but they're a band-aid company. They just want me to fix things.
我想有时候你也会这样做。就像我有一家公司称我为“隐喻达人”。他们基本上会打电话给我，说，“我们在我们无聊的平台上添加了一个无聊的功能，我们需要让人们明白它的用途。你能给我们提供所需的隐喻吗？”其实，他们并不明白我并不是在创造隐喻。我只是从自己的生活中找些故事，把自己从故事中抽离出来。如果你把自己从一个故事中抽离出来，通常剩下的就是一个隐喻、示例或者例子。然后我就把这些提供给他们。我还告诉他们，如果他们也使用我的一些讲故事和创作技巧，他们也能做到。但他们是一家“创可贴”公司，只想让我来解决问题。
And I understand that. If you're trying to do it, the best way to, the best way to sort of tell a story about something that you want people to understand is to do what I call speaking with a J-sensei, which means we're not going to match content to content. Instead, we're going to match theme, meaning, or message. So that scientist, for example, he wasn't talking about tubes. He was talking about how people deserve to get what they want in life. His family gets deserves to get the apples they want and you as a business deserves to get the tubes that you want. But so often in business, what people think is content to content. Well, I got to find a way to talk about these tubes to make people understand how important they are. And I said, well, let's not talk about the tubes.
我明白这一点。如果你想讲述一个故事，让人们理解其中的内容，最好的方法就是采用我称之为“与J老师对话”的方式，这意味着我们不单纯匹配内容与内容，而是匹配主题、含义或信息。例如，那位科学家并不是在谈论管子，他是在谈论人们应该得到他们想要的东西。他的家人理应得到他们想要的苹果，而你的公司理应得到你们想要的管子。但在商业中，人们常常认为要匹配内容，要找到谈论这些管子的方法，让人们明白它们的重要性。我则建议，不要直接谈论管子。
Let's talk about something else instead. And then we're going to move what we were talking about over two tubes. You know, we're going to snap it in place. That snap when someone realizes you were telling me about apples, but really you were telling me about tubes. That snap is so powerful. I use it with students all the time, right? A student acts like a fool, gets in trouble, sit in my desk. I'm not talking about their behavior. I'm telling a story that they have no idea like why I'm telling them the story. They're like, I'm in trouble. Why is he telling me about his dog, right? Why is he telling me a story about his dog when he was 12 because I'm going to snap it into place because I'm not talking about content, theme, meaning, or message.
我们聊点别的吧。然后，我们要把刚才谈论的内容移到另外两个管道上。你知道的，我们会把它卡进合适的位置。当有人意识到你其实是在用苹果的故事来讲述管道的故事时，那种豁然开朗的感觉是非常强烈的。我经常在学生中使用这种方法，对吧？有个学生表现不当，惹上麻烦，被叫到我办公桌前。我并不直接说他们的行为问题，而是开始讲一个和他们预期无关的故事。他们心里可能会想，“我惹麻烦了，为什么他在给我讲他12岁时的狗的故事？”因为我最终会让他们恍然大悟，因为我讲的不是具体内容、主题、意义或信息。
So when they come to me and they say, here's what we've got. I'm not thinking about the thing. I'm thinking about what is the theme they want to convey or the meaning that they want to convey or the message they want to convey and what story do I have that will match that or what story can I get out of them. The scientist did not come to me with the Apple story. The scientist came to me with the tubes and I said, well, it sounds like you're a company that wants to give people what they need. Let's find a story in your life about a time when you have to give people something that they need, right? And we brainstormed it and when we landed on apples, I knew we had it because he was going to be able to talk about I'm a father. I'm a husband. I'm the kind of husband who takes apple orders from his family before going to the grocery store. I'm going to be able to be funny because like befuddled husbands and grocery stores are always funny, right?
所以，当他们找到我并告诉我他们的想法时，我并不是在思考具体的事情，而是在思考他们想传达的主题、意义或信息是什么，以及我有什么故事可以匹配这些内容，或者我可以从他们那里得到什么故事。科学家没有带着苹果的故事来找我，而是带来了试管。我对他说，这听起来像是你们公司想要满足人们的需求。我们来找找你生活中的故事，看有没有你必须满足别人需求的场景，对吧？我们集思广益，最终想到了苹果的故事，我就知道我们成功了，因为他可以讲述自己作为父亲和丈夫的经历，比如在去杂货店之前他会接受家人的苹果订单。他还可以用幽默的方式表达，因为像对超市一头雾水的丈夫总是能带来笑声，对吧？
So it wasn't that he came to me with the story. I came to him with the idea of let's look at theme, meaning, and message and then snap it over to the to the to the tubes. That's what we want to do when we're putting a bandaid on. We don't want to think about what we're talking about. We want to think about the feelings we want people to have about what we're talking about. Amazing. Okay. So the advice here essentially is you're trying to find a story to tell about something to help you convince someone of something you want to think about what is the theme of this problem that I have? What is the meaning behind it and what is the message?
所以，不是他主动来找我讲这个故事，而是我主动去找他，提出了这样一个想法：让我们关注主题、意义和信息，然后把它们传达出去。当我们想用一个故事去说服别人时，我们不应该只关注我们在谈论什么，而是要关注我们希望别人对我们所谈论的内容产生什么样的感受。这太棒了。换句话说，当你想利用某个故事来帮助说服别人时，你应该思考这个问题的主题是什么，它背后的意义是什么，以及它传达的信息是什么。
Yeah, one of those, usually one of those. Yeah. And then you also touched back on make something in the story relate to something personal about you. So that people are like, oh, I'm a runner too. I got to pay attention to get it or I'm shopping. I shop all the time for apples. Yes, you can drop see. So we're sort of stacking strategies, which is a really good thing to do, right? So we're pulling in all of the things I've talked about and it really makes for a powerful moment for people in a memorable moment. Because the most important thing is that we're becoming memorable. We're in a conference amongst other scientists and we're actually the one who's being remembered.
是的，通常是这样的。是的。你还提到，要让故事中的某些元素与个人经历相关联。这样人们会觉得：“哦，我也是个跑步爱好者，我要关注这点”或者“我一直在买苹果”。是的，你可以这样运用。这就像是在叠加策略，这真的是一个好方法。我们运用所有我提到过的技巧，这让人们在这个时刻感到震撼并记忆深刻。因为最重要的是我们要变得让人难忘。在科学家的会议中，我们要成为那个被记住的人。
Okay. So we that was the bandaid approach. Then there's the way you recommend it was just build a bank of stories. I imagine this is where the homework for life framework you recommend comes from. So maybe let's transition and talk about that because I think that has a lot of benefits beyond even just coming up with a bunch of story ideas. Yeah, it's the most important thing that I teach whether or not you're ever going to speak in your life. If you plan on being a hermit and going off into the woods and never speaking to someone again, you should be doing homework for life regardless.
好的。刚才我们说的是临时处理的方法。然后你推荐的方法是建立一个故事库。我想这就是你推荐的"生活作业"框架的来源吧。或许我们可以转到这个话题，因为我觉得这个方法的好处远不止于帮你想出一些故事创意。这是我所教授的最重要的事情，不管你是否有计划在公共场合演讲。即使你打算做一个隐士，隐居山林，再也不与人交谈，你也应该坚持做"生活作业"。
It's a process I came up with, you know, maybe 15 years ago now. Essentially when I began telling stories on stages, I fell in love with it immediately and I got worried that I was going to run out of stories. I saw a lot of storytellers on stages performing and they would tell the same six, seven, eight stories every time and I didn't want to be that guy. I wanted to have a brand new story every time I took the stage. So sort of in a fit of panic, I decided to assign myself homework being an elementary school teacher. It's sort of natural for me to have that inclination.
这是我大约15年前想出的方法。当我开始在舞台上讲故事时，立刻爱上了这种体验，但随之而来的是对故事用尽的担忧。我看到很多讲故事的人每次上台都会讲同样的六七个故事，我不想成为那样的人。我希望每次上台都有一个全新的故事。于是，在某种恐慌中，由于我是小学老师，给自己布置作业对我来说是很自然的选择。
And so I just decided every day before I go to bed, I'm going to look back on the day and find one moment that would have been worth telling as a story. Even if it wasn't really worth telling, I was going to write it down. Now I don't write the whole thing down. That's crazy. It's not doable. What I do is I took an Excel spreadsheet, two columns, the date, and then I stretched the B column across and in that B column, essentially the length of the computer screen, that's where I write my story. My goal was I find one new moment per month, 12 new stories per year, that would be amazing.
于是，我决定每天在睡觉前回顾一天的生活，找出一个值得讲述的瞬间。就算它不是真正值得讲的，我也会把它记下来。不过我不会把整件事情写下来，那样太疯狂，不现实。我是用一个Excel表格，分两列，把日期放在一列，然后把B列拉宽，几乎占据整个电脑屏幕的长度，在那一栏里写下我的故事。我的目标是，每个月找出一个新的瞬间，一年12个新故事，那就太棒了。
Instead something far more amazing happens. I discover that my life is filled with more stories than I will ever have time to tell. And I'm not a unicorn. Thousands of people all over the world are doing the same thing right now and discovering that their lives are filled with stories. Moments like Eileen, which 20 years ago, I would have forgotten that moment within days. And now I've held on to it because it's going to be a homework for life moment.
相反，更令人惊讶的事情发生了。我发现我的生活中充满了许多故事，多到我永远都没有足够的时间去讲述。而我并不是个特例。全球有成千上万的人正在做同样的事情，他们也发现自己的生活中充满了故事。就像与艾琳的那一刻，如果是20年前，我可能几天后就忘记了。而现在，我一直记着它，因为这将成为我的"生活作业"时刻。
So I start writing those moments down and I discovered that I'm developing a lens for storytelling. I see the moments that I did not see before. In fact, I just did some analysis from my new book. In the first year I did homework for life, I found 1.8 moments per day. So you can find more than one. Eventually I started recording more than one. So 1.8 moments per day. I now find 7.6 moments per day. It's not because my life is more interesting. It's because I have a better lens and I understand what to look for, what to see, and what is worth remembering. And so I become a person who has an endless number of stories like Boris. Boris does homework for life. It's why whenever we meet, he's got three new stories to tell me. And then we work on the stories and then figure out the business applications for them. Right?
所以我开始把那些时刻写下来，发现自己正在培养一种讲故事的视角。我看到了一些以前没注意到的瞬间。实际上，我刚刚对我的新书做了一些分析。在我开始做“生活作业”的第一年，我每天能找到平均1.8个瞬间。所以你能找到不止一个。最终，我开始记录超过一个的时刻。也就是说，每天1.8个瞬间。现在我每天能找到7.6个瞬间。这并不是因为我的生活变得更有趣了，而是因为我拥有了更好的视角，懂得寻找什么、看见什么，什么值得记住。因此，我成为了一个像鲍里斯那样拥有无数故事的人。鲍里斯也在做“生活作业”。这就是为什么每次我们见面，他都会告诉我三个新的故事。然后我们一起研究这些故事，并找出它们的商业应用，对吧？
So it's so important because what we do is we throw our lives away. People say that time flies and it doesn't. What happens is it goes by unaccounted. If you can only remember 89 days of 365 in a year, of course time flies. Because you had 365 and you only remember 89, it's going to feel like it went by quickly. It's not going by quickly. You're just failing to account for each day. And each day has something worth remembering. Homework for life is the acknowledgement that every single day should have something. The prompt that I actually use for myself is this. I say, if someone kidnapped my family and said, you can't have them back until you stand on a stage and tell a story about something that happened today, what would you tell? That was what I would think in my head every night. And then I would write it down.
所以这个非常重要，因为我们总是在不知不觉中浪费生活。人们常说时间飞快，其实并不是这样。实际上，是因为我们没有好好记录每一天。如果你一年中只能记住89天，那当然会觉得时间飞逝。因为你本来有365天，却只记得其中的89天，这当然会让你感觉时间过得很快。时间并没有真的快速流走，而是因为我们没有好好重视每一天。其实，每一天都有值得记住的事情。“生活作业”就是承认每天都应该有值得留意的东西。我给自己设置的提示是这样的：我会想，如果有人绑架了我的家人，并说除非我能上台讲一个今天发生的故事，否则他们不放人，我会讲什么？这是我每晚在脑海中会想的问题，然后我会把它写下来。
To be honest, nowadays I'm not sort of sitting down at the end of the day and writing them all down. I'm recording them as the day goes on. My laptop is around me. My phone is around me. When I hear something, my son says a bit of dialogue. I can't believe you just said, you know, I see something for the first time or the last time or a straight thought enters my mind. I have a new thought that I had not occurred before. All of those become moments for homework for life. Not everyone becomes a story. I did some analysis on this too. About 10% of the things that I write down ultimately either become a story or a part of a story. But the other 90% is just is valuable because I'm holding on to my days.
坦白说，现在我不会等到一天结束才坐下来把所有的事情写下来。我会在一天的过程中随时记录它们。我的电脑和手机总是离我不远。当我听到儿子说了一句让我难以置信的话，或者看到一些第一次或最后一次的情景，或者脑海中突然闪现一个新念头时，我都会记录下来。这些都是我生命作业的素材，并不是每一个都能成为故事。我对这些做过一些分析，大约10%我记录下来的事情最终会成为故事或故事的一部分。但另外90%也同样珍贵，因为我在珍惜我的每一天。
And the other amazing thing that happens is once you start doing this, you'll sort of crack open and all of the stories that you've left from the past, the ones you've forgotten, they'll start to rise up. They'll bubble up. And I include those in my homework for life too, as memories. Because once you start looking through the lens of storytelling, you see something like you see, I lean, find confidence. And suddenly your brain connects to other students or moments in your life or moments in your children's life where confidence was an issue and you think, Oh, that's right. It's just like that kid. And now I have another moment that I've recovered from the past. A day has returned to me. It enters my homework for life. And suddenly I have more stories than I ever have time to tell.
一旦你开始这样做，另一件神奇的事情就会发生——你会有一种豁然开朗的感觉，那些你遗忘的过去的故事会开始浮现。它们会冒出来。我也会把这些记忆纳入到我的“生活作业”中。因为一旦你从讲故事的视角来看待事物，比如你看到某人找到自信，突然间你的大脑就会联想到你生活中的其他学生或情景，或者你孩子生活中关于自信的问题，你会想，对，就是那样子。然后，我又找回了一个过去的瞬间。一段时光回到了我的记忆中，加入到了我的“生活作业”中。突然间，我拥有了比我有时间讲述的更多的故事。
And it's not just me. Like I said, thousands of people over the world, my own children and my students do homework for life. And all of them will tell you it's most valuable thing that you can do. And I think you touched on this. It's not just to collect a bunch of stories. There's like a therapeutic element to this too that you talk about. Yeah, absolutely. Many therapeutic elements. First is you're recovering your time and slowing time down, which is beautiful, right? My kids are 14 and 11. Thank goodness I started homework for life just about when Clara was first born because they feel 14 and 11 to me. They don't feel like they would just born yesterday, which for a lot of parents, they do. Lots of parents say things like, oh my god, you're not going to believe what my kid said. I got to write it down, but nobody writes it down. Every you're not going to believe what my kid said is in homework for life for me. So I'm holding on to the moments stretching out time.
这不仅仅是我所做的事情。就像我之前说的，世界各地成千上万的人，包括我自己的孩子和学生，都在做“生活作业”。所有人都会告诉你，这是你能做的最有价值的事情。我觉得你也注意到了这一点，这不仅仅是为了收集一堆故事，这里面也有类似治疗的作用。是的，绝对有很多治疗作用。首先，你在找回你的时间，并让时间慢下来，这是很美好的，对吧？我的孩子一个14岁，一个11岁。幸好我在克拉拉刚出生时就开始做“生活作业”，因为他们在我眼里依然是14岁和11岁，他们并不像很多父母感受到的那样，仿佛刚刚出生。许多父母会说，天哪，你不会相信我孩子说了什么，我得记下来，但最终谁也没有写下来。所有“不敢相信我孩子说了什么”的瞬间都在我的“生活作业”中。因此，我在珍藏这些瞬间，让时间延续。
You also start to do things like you start to see patterns in your life that you don't realize, you know, unless unless you really think about your life. And I think you should storytellers tend to be slightly self centered in a positive way, meaning we afford ourselves time to think about ourselves. You start to see patterns if you start doing this. So I think when I talk about in my book is I always tell people my wife and I never fight. We've never raised our voices to each other. We really don't ever argue, but I noticed in my homework for life a moment when she had asked me to put in the air conditioners before I had central air in the house and I hated it. I hated it because we agreed to never buy a house without central air. And every year the air conditioners somehow get heavier. I don't understand the physics behind it, but every year it's worse. And so there's like and she always asks on the 98 degree day, hey, can you put the air conditioners in?
你也开始做一些事情，比如开始在生活中看到一些你没意识到的模式，除非你真的去思考自己的生活。我认为叙述者往往有点自我关注，但这是积极的，因为这意味着我们给自己留出时间去思考自己。如果你开始这样做，你就会开始看到这些模式。在我的书中，我总是告诉人们，我和我的妻子从不争吵，我们从未对彼此大声喊叫，我们真的不太争执。不过，我在写“生活作业”时注意到，有一次她让我在家里还没有中央空调之前安装空调，这让我很不喜欢。我讨厌它，因为我们曾同意永远不买没有中央空调的房子。而且每年空调似乎变得越来越重，我不明白这里的物理原理，但每年都更难装。而且她总是在98华氏度的高温天问我：“嘿，你能装上空调吗？”
And there was a day when I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. It's really hot. And she was like, okay, no problem. And then, you know, 10 minutes later, I'm in the basement pulling them out, complaining, grumbling, arguing, you know, only to myself banging them on purpose so she can hear, you know, she's like, what's going on? I'm like, I'm putting in air conditioners, right? And so that becomes a homework for life moment. And then like, you know, a month later she asked me to mold the lawn on the 98 degree day. And I said, I'm not going to mold the lawn and busy. And it's really hot. And she goes, okay, no problem. Maybe tomorrow. And then I sit for a while and I stew. And then I'm mowing the lawn, but I'm doing it aggressively. I'm like running and, you know, just angrily mowing the lawn.
有一天，我心想，不，我不去做。天气太热了。她说，好吧，没问题。然后，十分钟后，我在地下室搬那些东西，一边抱怨，一边自言自语地埋怨，还故意发出很大声响，让她听到。她问我，怎么回事？我说，我在装空调。于是，这就成了一次“生活课题”的时刻。大约一个月之后，她让我在一个98华氏度（约37摄氏度）的炎热天去割草。我说，我不去割草，我很忙，而且天很热。她说，好吧，没问题，或许明天吧。然后，我坐着想了一会儿，满肚子不乐意。最后我还是去割草了，但心情很不爽。我一路跑着，生气地割着草。
And when I see these patterns, I suddenly go, oh, I do fight with my wife on my own. Like I fight in a way that she's not aware I'm doing it. I yell at her through chores. And she's not aware that it's even happening. That becomes a story that couples love, you know, they think it's hilarious. You also start to see like stories that you would have never seen. So it was a day last May when the neighbors to my left and the neighbors to my right came over to the house and had a cookout the first one of the year. And that was a day when I couldn't find anything in the day. I had one moment, which is very unusual for me. And I remember thinking really all you got is you had a cookout with the neighbors. That's the best you got. It's not even really a story, but it was the best I had. So I wrote it down and I moved on about four months later, the neighbors to our left announced they were getting divorced.
当我发现这些模式时，我忽然明白，哦，我原来真的独自在内心和妻子争吵。我用一种她察觉不到的方式在和她吵架，比如通过做家务的方式对她"吼叫"。她甚至不知道这在发生。这成了夫妻间的一个"趣事"，他们觉得这很有趣。你还会开始注意到一些以前未曾留意的故事。比如去年五月的一天，我左右两边的邻居来到我们家，举办了那年第一次的户外烧烤聚会。那天我觉得一整天都没有太多特别的事发生，但那一刻对我来说极为特别。我记得当时在想，你这一天唯一的亮点就是和邻居搞了个烧烤。这是你所能想到的最好事情，甚至算不上是个故事，但我还是把它记下来了。大约四个月后，我们左边的邻居宣布他们要离婚了。
The devastated us because they have two kids. We've got this big communal backyard with the three houses. Every three boys to the right, two kids to the left, friends couldn't believe it that they were divorced, they getting divorced, you know, known each other since high school. We just never saw it coming. One day later, neighbors to the right announced they're getting divorced. Left and right within the day of each other. Right? And it becomes a story about how you never understand what's going on in a marriage unless you're like in that house. Right? But I don't have that moment in May when there were three couples on a porch. One of them was happy. I thought all three were happy. Right? I don't get that moment unless I'm doing homework for life and I write it down.
他们的离婚让我们感到震惊，因为他们有两个孩子。我们住的三个房子共用一个大后院。右边住着三户人家，左边有两家。我们一直以为，他们从高中就认识，怎么可能离婚。真的从没想到会这样。就在他们宣布离婚的第二天，右边的邻居也宣布离婚了。前后只差一天。大家都觉得不可思议。这让我明白，其实你永远无法真正了解一段婚姻的真实情况，除非你生活在那户人家里。但是，我没有记下那个在五月发生的时刻，当时三个夫妇坐在门廊上，其中一对看起来很幸福。我原以为三对都很幸福。如果我没有做生活记录并写下这些，我就不会注意到这些细节。
And now I see a trajectory of a story. I have the opposite. Now I actually have an opposite moment, which is I'm serving hot dogs to people I think are happy, but they're only pretending to be happy for our sake. And then they're returning to their homes to discord and eventually to disillusion of a marriage. Right? So homework for life gives you all of that that you don't normally have in life because we tend to live day by day and we leave that last day behind. I got tingles listening to that story. For someone that's now motivated to try this, I know there's a template that we'll link to in the show notes where you give people it's very simple, but I think seeing it will be helpful.
现在我看到了一个故事的发展轨迹。我有一个相反的情况。现在我实际上有一个相反的时刻，就是我在为那些表面上看起来很开心的人提供热狗，但他们只是为了我们装作开心，随后回到他们的不和谐的家中，最终导致婚姻的幻灭。对吗？生活作业给了你这些通常在生活中没有的体验，因为我们往往是日复一日地生活，把昨天抛在脑后。听到这个故事让我浑身起鸡皮疙瘩。如果有人因此受到激励想要尝试一下，我知道有一个模板会在节目的备注中提供链接。这很简单，但我觉得看看这个模板会很有帮助。
But what's something someone could do tonight to start on this process and maybe set a habit to do? How do you actually go about doing this? Well, they have to start homework for life. And I have a TED talk about it that I go on for 17 minutes about. So I suggest watching it because you'll just get more than what I just told you. And I think that's important. And you have to decide to do it every single day even on the day when the best you have is a cookout. Right? If that's all you got, that's what you got and you're writing down. You have to have some faith too that it's going to happen over time. Remember, I started with 1.8 and now I'm up to 7.6 and that's over more than 12 years of takes for me to make that jump.
但是，今晚有人可以做些什么来开始这个过程，并或许养成一个习惯呢？具体该怎么做呢？他们需要开始"生活作业"。我有一个关于这个的TED演讲，讲了17分钟。因此，我建议去观看，因为你会得到比我刚才讲的更多的信息。我认为这是很重要的。而且你必须决定每天都去做，即使在那些你能想到的最好事情只是一次野餐的日子。如果那是你唯一能记录的，就是它了。同时，你也需要有一些信心，相信随着时间的推移会看到成果。记住，我开始时评分是1.8，现在已经提高到7.6，这是我经过超过12年的努力才达到的进步。
So in the beginning, you're not going to be very good at it. You're not going to see the right things. And that's just the way it is. If I go back to my original home for my life, I see myself looking for stories and you're not really looking for stories. You're just looking for moments that touch your heart, touch your mind. That's all you're really hoping for. And some of those will become stories. So you've got to start homework for life right away. And then if you can just find some people who are willing to listen and begin telling some stories, that's really helpful because most people are unwilling to listen. There's not a lot of good listeners in the world. Everyone says they're a great listener, but active listening is a skill that most people do not possess in any way whatsoever.
所以一开始的时候，你可能不会很擅长。你可能不会马上看到正确的东西，这就是事情的常态。如果我回到我一直生活的老家，我发现自己在寻找故事，但实际上你并不是在找故事，而是在寻找那些触动你心灵和思想的瞬间。这就是你真正希望的。其中一些瞬间最终会变成故事。因此，你必须立刻开始为生活做一些准备。如果你能找到一些愿意倾听的人，开始讲一些故事，这会非常有帮助，因为大多数人不愿意倾听。这个世界上并没有太多优秀的倾听者。虽然每个人都说自己是个很好的倾听者，但积极倾听是一种大多数人完全不具备的技能。
But if you find people who are willing to listen, you got to start telling stories. You got to start practicing in meaningful ways. And your first stories aren't going to be great, but the good news is most people's stories are terrible. Most storytelling in the world is not very good. So if you put a little thought into what you're about to say, you're going to be better because storytelling is not about facility with the language or your vocabulary. It's all about decision making. That's all it is. Storytellers are people who think before they speak. They make strategic tactical decisions before they speak, right? And ultimately they make enough good decisions to entertain people. Ultimately, no matter what you're doing, whether I am teaching a fifth grader how to behave better or presenting a new product for a large company or helping someone deliver in all hands, the first and most important thing you have to be is entertaining.
但如果你找到愿意倾听的人，你就应该开始讲故事。你需要以有意义的方式开始练习。最初的故事可能不太精彩，但好消息是，大多数人的故事都很糟糕。世界上的大多数故事讲述其实都不太好。所以如果你花一点心思在你即将说的事情上，你就会更出色，因为讲故事不在于语言技巧或词汇量，而在于决策。这就是全部。讲故事的人是在说话前经过思考的人。他们在开口前做出策略性和战术性的决策，对吧？最终，他们做出足够多的明智决定来娱乐观众。无论你在做什么，不管是教五年级的学生如何更好地表现，还是给大公司推荐新产品，又或者帮助某人举行全体会议，首要且最重要的就是要具有娱乐性。
You have to entertain or people will not listen to you. So you've got to practice. You've got to get reps. I want to talk about public speaking skills, but just to close the loop on that. So if someone was trying to do this homework for life exercises, the idea, like would you recommend at night before they get a sleep, open up Google sheets on their phone and just add something, is there something else you'd recommend? Yeah, that's what I would do. Although, ideally, as you go through the day, things get forgotten quickly. You know, your son says something hilarious, and by the end of the night, you can't remember what it was. So if you can start sort of tracking it through day a little bit, maybe you make it a habit where at lunchtime you're going to ask yourself what happened that morning.
为了让别人听你说话，你必须具备娱乐性。因此你需要练习，需要不断重复。我想讨论一下公众演讲的技巧，但先把这个问题解决掉。如果有人想要做这个“生活作业”练习，你会建议他们晚上在睡觉前，用手机打开Google表格记录一些东西吗？或者你有其他建议吗？是的，我会这么做。尽管如此，在一天中，事情很快就被遗忘了。比如，你的儿子说了一些让人发笑的话，到了晚上你可能都不记得了。所以，如果你能够在白天稍微跟踪一下，当成一个习惯，比如午餐时间问问自己早上发生了什么会有所帮助。
And when you get home from work, you're going to say what happened in the afternoon. And then evening, you're going to say what happened since then and then sort of take a whole view of the day. And then be open to those memories, allow them to come back. You know, I record them in my homework for life as memory, sort of a capital, MEM, ORY, because what happens is you start to build up so many homework for life memories that you get confused. You're like, what? When did I see a deer? And then I go, oh, that's a story from when I was 14. But you get confused because it's sitting on, you know, when you're 38 years old. So you mark them as memories, you hold on to them. You put them into spreadsheets because eventually you're going to want to move that data around and keep track of it in some meaningful way.
当你下班回到家时，你会讲述下午发生的事情。到了晚上，你会说说从那时起发生了什么，然后整体回顾一下这一天。要对那些记忆保持开放，让它们浮现。我在我的"生命家庭作业"中把这些记录为记忆，用大写字母“记忆”来标示，因为你会慢慢积累起许多"生命家庭作业"的记忆，可能会感到困惑。比如你可能会想：“咦？我什么时候看到的鹿？”然后你会想：“哦，那是我14岁时候的故事。”可是你38岁时，可能会不太清楚这些过往记忆。所以你要把它们标记为记忆，并好好保存起来。你可以把它们录入电子表格中，因为最终你可能会希望以某种有意义的方式整理和追踪这些数据。
But yeah, get started. Get started today because if you don't, you will lose today. Every day that you don't do homework for life is a day that is going to be lost to you forever. And just very practically, you recommend like Google Sheets, I imagine, is what you use. I actually use old fashioned Excel, but yes, Google Sheets would work too. Because I started so long ago, right? Excel was the thing I used and Excel is the thing I still use. I mean, it's backed up in 19 places. It's the most precious thing I have other than my wife and children cats. But yeah, that's what I suggest to use. Awesome.
当然，今天就开始吧。因为如果你不开始，你就失去了今天。每一天不完成生活作业的日子都会永远失去。从实用的角度来看，我推荐使用像谷歌表格这样的工具。我其实用的是老式的Excel，不过谷歌表格也可以用。因为我开始得很早，当时用的是Excel，现在仍然用Excel。我已经在19个地方备份了它，除了我的妻子、孩子和猫之外，它是我最珍贵的东西。所以，这就是我推荐使用的工具。太棒了。
Okay. Just a couple more questions before our very exciting waiting round. In your bookies, say that you've only been nervous twice on stage giving a story. Most people, I don't know, is that true? I'm like, okay, I can remember the two times. It was, yeah, it was PTSD related and Seth Meyers cost of ticket related. Now I remember that story. Yeah. Okay. So most people are not like you. Most people are nervous, including me every single time I get on stage tell a story. What advice do you give people to actually to help them get better with the nerves of getting on stage and telling a story? Licycle, it's the thing people fear most in life.
好的。在我们进入激动人心的等待阶段之前，还有几个问题。在你的书中，你提到过在舞台上讲故事时你只有两次感到紧张。大多数人，我不知道，是真的吗？我想，好的，我可以记得那两次。是的，那是因为PTSD和Seth Meyers的票价相关的问题。现在我想起了那个故事。好吧，所以大多数人不像你。大多数人在上台讲故事的时候都会感到紧张，包括我每次上台都会这样。你有什么建议可以帮助人们缓解上台讲故事的紧张情绪吗？因为在生活中，这是人们最害怕的事情之一。
Well, the first thing you have to understand is that 98% of your nervousness is actually before you begin speaking. Once you begin speaking, almost all of your nervousness falls away. And that is the experience of most people. So what you're really suffering is from pre-talk nervousness. And when you find that out, that's kind of a relief. Because if you do it enough, I just had someone, someone just spoken the Netherlands. And today, I'm waiting to find out how it went. He spoke it for the Florida State legislature. Same topic. He was really nervous about going into today.
好的，首先你需要明白的是，其实你有98%的紧张情绪是在开口讲话之前。一旦开始讲话，你的紧张几乎都会消失。这是大多数人的共同感受。所以，你真正感受到的是"演讲前的紧张"。当你意识到这一点时，会觉得有些放松。因为如果你做得足够多，就像我最近见到的一个人，他刚刚在荷兰发言。今天，我在等待查看他表现如何。他之前已经在佛罗里达州立法机关讲过相同的话题，他对于今天的演讲一开始非常紧张。
He was also really nervous speaking to a bunch of scientists in the Netherlands. But I told him, I said, after you began speaking in the Netherlands, once the talk began, how nervous were you? And he said, oh, actually, when I began speaking, I was pretty okay. I was incredibly nervous before the talk. And I said, well, that makes sense. So if you own the fact or you believe the fact that, oh, most of my nervousness comes before the talk. But once I start speaking, I'm pretty good. That's really relieving for a lot of people.
他在荷兰和一群科学家交流时真的很紧张。但我对他说，当你开始演讲后，你有多紧张？他说，其实当我开始说话时，我还挺好的，只是在演讲前非常紧张。我说，那很合理。所以，如果你认识到或者相信，大部分的紧张都是在演讲前，但一旦开始说话，就没那么紧张了，这对很多人来说会是个很大的宽慰。
Because the, what we imagine is that we're nervous while we're talking, which is often not the case. It's particularly if you're kind of prepared, if you know what you're talking about. So be aware that most of your nervousness happens before you speak. And that's a normal thing. And you're just going to have to accept that until someday when perhaps it starts to go away through repetition through continued performance on a stage. For some people, they're always nervous. I was performing with, I won't say her name, but someone who you have watched on television before.
因为我们常常以为在讲话时很紧张，但通常并非如此。尤其是当你有所准备并了解自己在讲什么的时候。请意识到，大部分的紧张感在你开口之前就已经出现，这是很正常的。你需要接受这一点，直到有一天，可能通过重复练习和持续的舞台表现，紧张感会逐渐消失。对有些人来说，他们总是感到紧张。我曾和一位你在电视上看过的著名人物一起表演，她也总是如此。
And we were both backstage. And I was chatting up the room. And she finally said to me, this very famous person, would you stop talking? Because the rest of us are trying to keep information in our head and stay calm. I'm a terrible person backstage because I'm always calm. I never care. So I have to sort of sequester myself from these people because I torture them. But once she began speaking, all of her nerves fell away. So that's a good thing to know.
我们俩都在后台，我正在和大家聊天。后来这个非常有名的人终于对我说，你能不能别再说话了？因为我们其他人需要集中精神记住信息，还要保持冷静。我在后台真的是个糟糕的人，因为我总是很冷静，从不紧张。所以我得把自己和他们隔离开来，因为我会让他们很烦。但是，一旦她开始讲话，她的紧张就消失了。这是件好事。
The other thing to know that's really great is everyone's nervous. Except for me, I'm the only monster in the world. So if you're feeling nervous, you're just like everyone else, including a very famous person who you see on TV all the time. That person was nervous, you're nervous. You're in the same camp, right? You're in the same boat. And then preparation is going to reduce your level of nervousness. One of the things that I tell people to do that as most helpful is it's good to practice your talk, you know, or practice your pitch, whatever you're doing.
还有一个很重要的信息就是，每个人都会紧张。除了我，我是全世界唯一的例外。也就是说，如果你感到紧张，你并不是一个人，这种感觉和所有人一样，包括那些你常常在电视上看到的名人。他们也曾紧张过，你也是如此，你们其实是同一阵营的，对吧？同一条船上的。准备工作能够有效减少你的紧张情绪。我常建议大家做的一件事情就是，多练习你的演讲或是你的提案，这会很有帮助。
But one of the best ways to prepare for it is to record it and listen to it. Listen to it passively. Listen to it while you grow, you're shopping, listen to it while you're folding laundry, doing the dishes. What happens is I really believe this. As you start to listen to it over and over again, it just sort of seeps into your soul. And so it becomes part of you. You know, I have done this technique. I've told a story a decade ago. Haven't told it since someone hears it on YouTube and says, Hey, can you tell that story at our event?
但是，准备这件事的最佳方法之一就是把它录下来然后听。要被动地听。可以在你做家务、购物时听，可以在你叠衣服、洗碗时听。我真的相信，当你反复听它时，它会慢慢地融入你的灵魂，成为你的一部分。你知道吗，我之前就用过这个方法。我十年前讲过一个故事，然后就再没讲过。有一天，有人在 YouTube 上听到了这个故事，然后邀请我在他们的活动中讲这个故事。
I say, Yes, I can listen to it once and it comes right out again because I allowed it to sort of sink into my memory in the same way that when Harry Met Sally has sunk into your wife's memory. She can replay that movie in her mind probably perfectly. If you listen to your talk enough, you will get to the point where you can retell it with ease. The other thing you can do is some active listening with it. Most people don't forget their talk. They forget the transitions in their talk. So I'm talking about this, but then I go transition to this, then I go transition to this. So when I'm listening to my stories or talk that I'm going to give, I'm playing a game with myself. So I'm listening and I go, Oh, okay, this is closing out and the next thing I have to talk about is this.
我说，是的，我可以听一遍就马上忘掉，因为我尝试让它融入我的记忆，就像《当哈利遇上莎莉》已经深深印在你妻子的记忆中一样。她可能可以在脑海中完美地重播那部电影。如果你足够多地听自己的演讲，你也会达到可以轻松复述的程度。你还可以进行一些主动的聆听练习。大多数人并不会忘掉他们的演讲内容，而是忘记了演讲中的过渡部分。比如说，我在谈论这个话题，然后要过渡到下一个话题，然后再过渡到另一个话题。因此，当我在倾听自己即将发表的故事或演讲时，我会跟自己做个游戏。我会听，并想，“哦，好的，这部分结束了，接下来我要谈的内容是这个。”
And then the next thing I have to talk about is this. And if I don't know what I'm going to, if I'm like, Oh, what am I going to next, that's where I go. Oh, I got to create a new monocter. I got to create a bit of memorization there to train, train myself for that transition. Once you're in a new section of a talk, even if you're following it up a little, you're going to be okay because you're like, Oh, I got to talk about the data related to this or the that. And if it doesn't come out perfectly, you still know what you're talking about. But what happens when you're done with the data related to this or that you go, Oh, damn, what am I supposed to do next? Right?
然后我要谈的下一个事情是这个。如果我不知道接下来要谈什么，比如说，哦，我接下来要说什么，我就会想到我要创建一个新的记忆连接。我需要在那个过渡阶段进行一些记忆训练。一旦进入演讲的新部分，即使你有点跟不上，你也会没问题，因为你会想，哦，我要谈这方面的数据。如果表达得不够完美，你依然知道自己在说什么。但是，当你讲完相关数据之后，你会想，哦，天啊，我接下来该做什么呢，对吧？
So we're working on building those transitions before a talk or before a story, let's say, I will do something like I'm going to start in the car and then I'm going to get out into the store. And then I'm going to head out to the parking lot and then I'm going to be in the park. And then it's three weeks later. I don't tell myself the story. I'm just bouncing between the scenes because once I know the scenes and I know, okay, there's seven scenes and here they are and here's the transitions. Again, if I follow up each scene, that's okay. Because I'm going to get the information out.
所以，在准备演讲或讲故事之前，我们正在努力构建那些过渡环节。比方说，我可能会从车里开始，然后走出来进入商店，然后前往停车场，接着我会出现在公园里，然后突然是三周后。我不会给自己讲故事，只是在不同场景之间来回跳。因为一旦我知道了这些场景，并明白有七个场景，它们是什么，以及它们之间的过渡是什么。如果每个场景我都能跟上，那就没问题。因为这样我就能传达出信息。
It might not come out as perfectly as I hope. You also, if you can avoid memorizing, that'll save you a ton of suffering because memorizers, they're the most tortured souls in the world. So avoid that if all possible. Remember your talk without memorizing your talk. Reminds me a friend of mine gave a TED talk and he shared that they give you this advice that people are different kind of learners, some are audio learners, some are visual. So if you're like an audio learner, listening to it is the most helpful. Some it's seeing the script. Yes. And I'm very much an auditory learner.
这段话翻译成中文可以表达为：
“可能不会像我希望的那样完美。如果可能的话，尽量避免死记硬背，因为死记硬背的人是世界上最痛苦的灵魂之一。所以如果可以的话，尽量避免那样。记住你的演讲内容而不是背下来。我有个朋友做了个TED演讲，他分享说，他们建议人们是不同类型的学习者，有些人通过听觉学习，有些人通过视觉学习。所以如果你是听觉学习者，听录音对你最有帮助。有的人则是通过看文本。我自己就非常属于听觉学习者。”
The other thing though about listening to it is you just get sick of practicing. It gets so frustrating to practice. So at some point you don't want to say it anymore. So rather than saying it, you start to listen to it. You listen to yourself, tell a story about yourself to yourself, which is the most narcissistic thing you could probably do in the world. But even if you're a visual learner, because it's so annoying to practice, eventually I think listening to it can be really helpful. Okay. Last question is, I want to talk about, I mentioned I'd bring this up. Is this the power of saying yes, something that you, you recommend people say yes to stuff versus no.
另外一件事是，听自己说话有时候会让人厌倦练习。这种练习过程可能会让人非常沮丧，以至于有时候你会不想再说了。所以，与其一直重复练习，不如试着倾听。你开始倾听自己给自己讲的故事，这或许是世界上最自恋的行为之一。但即使你是视觉型学习者，因为练习如此烦人，最终我认为听对你来说还是会很有帮助。好的，最后一个问题，我想讨论的是，我之前提到过要谈的内容。你是否建议人们多说"是"，而不是"否"？这是否是一种强大的能力？
It reminds me David Sederis in a, I don't know, Dave Masterclass video or something said the same thing. He's just like, I just say yes to everything because it creates great stories. Really? Yeah. And I just finished talking to him. Sederis is happy to go lucky, which is a great book. I love him. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to hear advice here for people just to give him a little bit of a final takeaway. Sure. So I'm going to disagree with Sederis a little bit. Not, I won't disagree with him by saying yes, you do end up with some great stories, but that's not the purpose of the yes.
这让我想起David Sederis。在某个视频课或者其他场合，他提到类似的话。他说他会对所有事情都说“是”，因为这能带来很棒的故事。真的吗？是的，我刚和他聊完。他的新书《Sederis's Happy to Go Lucky》非常好。我很喜欢他。是的。所以，我想给大家提供一点建议，作为一个总结。好的。我对Sederis说的有点不同意。不是说对他说“是”不会带来精彩的故事，而是我认为说“是”的目的并不仅仅是为了这些故事。
There's actually a book, a storytelling book in the world that I'm not going to mention. And it talks about how to find great stories and it says go do crazy things and you'll have great stories. I disagree. Fundamentally, first, that's a foolish way to live your life. And also some of the best stories I tell, I think the best stories I tell are about tiny moments in our lives where nothing extraordinary happens, except everything in our head. Right? Most stories that I tell, if you would actually witness the moment of transformation or realization, you would have never known it was happening.
其实，世界上有一本讲述故事的书，我不打算提它的名字。书中讲到如何找到精彩的故事，并建议去做疯狂的事情，从而获得精彩的故事。我对此表示不同意。首先，那是一种不明智的生活方式。另外，我觉得我讲得最好的故事，往往来自我们生活中那些微小的瞬间，当时没有发生任何特别的事情，只是在我们的头脑中发生了一些变化。对吧？我讲的大多数故事，如果你亲眼目睹那一刻的转变或领悟，你可能根本不会意识到有什么正在发生。
Because most things that happened to us happen in our heads, it's not while we're hanging from a cliff, right? For our dear life that we suddenly have a revelation, it's usually like we're walking across a parking lot and suddenly something hits us that's been building up for three weeks, but now it's hit us, walking across a parking lot. So the reason we say yes to everything is, if you don't say yes, what you're essentially saying is I am so presumptuous that I understand what's on the other side of that door already, even though I've never set foot beyond that door. Right? I just know so much about the world that I know that what's behind that door is not for me. And I think that's foolish and arrogant and full of hubris that is not helping anyone in any way.
因为我们经历的大多数事情都是在脑海中发生的，不是在悬崖上摇摇欲坠的那一刻，对吧？通常当我们走在停车场时，才会突然受到某种经历的触动，而这种触动可能已经在我们心中积累了三周，但真正让我们感到冲击的却是在走过停车场的时候。所以，我们之所以对所有事情都说"是"，是因为如果你不说"是"，那其实是在说“我自认为了解门后的一切”，即使我从未跨过那扇门。对吧？自以为对世界了解得太多，以致于认为那扇门后的一切都不适合我。我认为这种想法不仅愚蠢傲慢，而且充满自负，对任何人都没有帮助。
So I say when someone offers you an opportunity as crazy as it is, as ridiculous as much as you don't want to do it, which many times in my life, the yeses that I have said about something I did not want to do, but forced myself to do it because of my belief system have resulted in the best and most extraordinary opportunities of my life. I yes can always become a no, right? Yes, I will try that. I step through the door. I give it a try. I spend some time with it. I look around and I say, you know what? Not for me. I step back through and I close the door.
所以我想说，当有人向你提供一个机会时，即使这个机会看起来很疯狂或很荒唐，即使你非常不想去做，在我生活中的很多时候，那些我本不愿意去尝试，但因信念而逼自己去做的事情，最终带来了我人生中最好和最不可思议的机会。 记住，一个“是”随时可以变成“不”，对吧？你可以说：“是的，我愿意试试看。”你可以走进这扇门，试一下，在其中花些时间，观察之后再说：“你知道吗？这不适合我。”然后你就可以退出来，把门关上。
But so often in life, people don't step through the door. They're too afraid. They've already prejudged the opportunity in some way. They fail to see the benefits of it or the value because they can't see that because they haven't gone through the door. And then there's this ridiculous belief in the world that we are supposed to learn to say no so that we can sort of sequester our time and make it as meaningful as possible, which sounds really terrible to me. The problem is you're going to be a hundred someday. And when you're a hundred, no one is going to be asking you to step through any more doors.
在生活中，很多时候人们不敢迈出那一步。他们太害怕了，已经在某种程度上对机会有了偏见。他们看不到其中的好处或价值，因为他们根本没有尝试打开这扇门。而世上还有一种荒谬的观念，认为我们应该学会拒绝，以此来管理时间，让其尽可能有意义。对我来说，这听起来很糟糕。问题是，总有一天你会老到一百岁，而到那时，再也没有人会邀请你去开启新的大门。
And at that point, you're going to look into the past and you're going to say, there were a lot of doors I didn't step through. And you're not going to be thinking, I'm so glad I didn't because I allowed myself to stay on the one path that I knew was going to be good for me. I just think there is no one good path that's good for you. I think there's a multitude of paths and they're all great. And a few of them are terrible. But you find out which ones are terrible by stepping through the door, deciding this is not for me and coming back.
到那时，你会回顾过去，然后说，有很多机会我没有去尝试。而你不会觉得很高兴自己没有尝试，因为这样就能一直走一条自己认为对的路。我认为没有唯一一条适合你的好路。我觉得有很多条路都很好，当然也有几条是糟糕的。但你只有通过迈出那一步，走过那些门，才能发现哪些是不适合你的，然后回头。
So I think most of the time, people say no because they're afraid. And when someone asks me to do something that scares me, that is when I run to that thing as quickly as possible. With all of my might is terrified as I am because I know that it's the things that frighten me are often the things that are the best for me. So we say yes with the acknowledgement that we can say no eventually, but a yes can lead to extraordinary things.
所以我认为，大多数时候人们说“不”是因为害怕。而当有人让我做一些让我害怕的事时，我会尽快去尝试，尽管我感到害怕，因为我知道那些让我害怕的事情往往对我是最有益的。因此，尽管我们知道以后也可以说“不”，但我们应该先说“是”，因为一个“是”可能会带来非凡的结果。
And if you watch my TED talk on saying yes, you'll see that yeses just lead to these extraordinary chains where you said yes to something you didn't want to say yes to. And suddenly it forced you to meet someone who you never would have met who opened a different door for you. And I mean, the causal chain that you can sort of create by saying an odd yes is extraordinary. There's a quote I often come back to roundless, which is the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek. Yeah, that's really good.
如果你看过我在TED演讲中关于“说是”的内容，你会发现，“是”会引发一连串不平凡的结果。你可能会在不愿意的情况下同意某件事，但结果却迫使你遇到一个本不会相识的人，并因此为你打开了一扇新的大门。我认为，通过一个出乎意料的“是”而创造的因果链实在是了不起的。有一句我常常回忆的话：“你害怕进入的洞穴中藏着你寻找的宝藏。” 这是非常有道理的。
I mean someone I do stand up now quite frequently. I was just in the New York City Comedy Festival. And I do stand up because six years ago, one of my buddies sent me an email saying hey, we should do stand up. And I replied to him and said no, I'm not interested in that hit reply. And then I said to myself, whoa, why did you just do that? And I said to myself, I'm terrified of it. I can tell funny stories. And if it's not funny, still tell on a story. But if I'm doing stand up and I'm not funny, I'm failing. And that's a terrifying thing.
我现在经常进行单口喜剧表演。我刚刚在纽约市喜剧节上演出。而我之所以开始做单口喜剧，是因为六年前我的一个朋友给我发了一封电子邮件，说我们应该去尝试做单口喜剧。我回信说不，我对这个没兴趣。按下回复按钮后，我问自己，哇，你为什么会这样做？我意识到自己其实非常害怕。我知道自己能讲有趣的故事，即使不搞笑也只是讲一个故事而已。但如果我在做单口喜剧时不搞笑，那就是失败了，而这是一个让人害怕的事情。
So I immediately sent a second email that said, okay, I'm in. When are we doing it? I have now done stand up many, many, many times that guy who initially asked me to do stand up with him has never done it. Not once into the life. He wanted to do it, but he's afraid to step through the door. He's too afraid to do the thing that he challenged me to do that I now do on a regular basis because he challenged me. And it's still the thing that probably scares me the most. And therefore, it's the thing that I am relentlessly trying to do at all times because I know the things that scare me or the things that are the best for me.
于是，我立刻发了第二封邮件，表示：“好，我加入。我们什么时候开始？”现在我已经多次进行过即兴喜剧表演，而最初邀请我与他一起表演的那个人，却一次也没有做过。他一直想参与，却害怕跨出那扇门。他太害怕去做他原本挑战我去做的事情，而我现在已经经常在做。即便如此，这仍然是可能最让我感到害怕的事情。因此，我不停地尝试去做这件事，因为我知道，那些让我害怕的事情，往往对我来说是最有益的。
Amazing. Matt, is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round? No, I've said enough. They've heard enough for me. Let's go to the lightning round. A lot. That's true. Well, welcome to our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? Yes. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? Oh, so Nathaniel Thilbricks, Heart of the Sea, which is a nonfiction account of the Wailship Essex, which is the origin of the idea for Moby Dick. The sinking of the Essex is what gave Melville the idea for Moby Dick. It's an extraordinary nonfiction account of the Wailship Essex. So that book for sure, if you have children, but even if you don't, because this is one of those children's books that reads well for adults as Kate De Camillo's The Tale of Desperado. It's a young adult novel. It'll take you two hours to read.
太棒了。Matt，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电问答环节之前，还有什么想要分享或留给听众的吗？ 不，我已经说了很多，他们已经听了很多了。我们开始闪电问答吧。没错，欢迎来到我们非常激动人心的闪电问答环节。你准备好了吗？准备好了。你向别人推荐最多的两到三本书是什么？哦，Nathaniel Philbrick的《海洋之心》，这是关于捕鲸船埃塞克斯号的非虚构记述，这艘船的沉没是《白鲸记》灵感的来源。Melville就是在埃塞克斯号沉没的事件中得到了创作《白鲸记》的灵感。这是一本关于捕鲸船埃塞克斯号的精彩非虚构作品。还有一本适合所有人的书——即使你没有孩子，这也是一本适合成人阅读的儿童书——Kate De Camillo的《Desperado的故事》。这是一本青少年小说，大约需要两个小时就能读完。
I've read it 20 times. It is beautiful and extraordinary and fantastic. And then anything by Jesse Klein. She has two books. The only thing I don't like about her is she only has two books. Actually, Siddaris too. Jesse Klein and David Siddaris go read those two people too. I'm actually right now reading Banford's book. The comedian, what's her first name? Banford. I have Amy stuck in my head for Amy Siddaris. Maria Banford's memoir right now I'm reading also extraordinary. So there's four that I am now recommending. Amazing. What's the favorite reason to movie or TV show that you really enjoyed? Well, for TV shows, I enjoyed the last of us, which is based on a video game I've never played in my life. Pretty extraordinary as a TV show, both because filled with stakes.
我已经读了20遍。它很美，很特别，也很棒。还有Jesse Klein的作品，她有两本书。我唯一不喜欢的是她只有两本书。其实，Siddaris也是。Jesse Klein和David Siddaris，都值得一读。我现在正在读Banford的书。那个喜剧演员，她的名字是？Banford。我因为Amy Siddaris而记得Amy这个名字。我现在正在读Maria Banford的回忆录，也非常精彩。所以我推荐这四位作者。真的很棒。最近有哪个电影或电视剧是你非常喜欢的？就电视剧来说，我很喜欢《美国末日》，这是根据一个我从未玩过的电子游戏改编的。作为一部电视剧，这部剧非常特别，因为充满了悬念。
It's one of those, yeah, it's one of those shows they'll kill anyone at any time. And so you're on your adjevier seat. No one is safe, which is fantastic. And then it has this beautiful bottle episode in the middle of the season, which is one of those things where you're in a zombie TV show, which oddly is unlike any zombie TV show I've ever seen. And then there's a beautiful fantastic episode. There's another one later on that's sort of very similar. It's just great storytelling in a multitude of ways. It's a great, it's great. And for a movie, the Barbie movie is better than I ever expected it to be quite frankly. And it's proof positive that you can make stories about just about anything. And if they mean something, it's going to do extraordinarily well.
这是一部典型的那种电视剧，任何时候都会有人被“杀掉”。因此，你始终处于一种紧张的状态，没人是安全的，这点非常吸引人。而且在本季中间还有一集独立成章的绝妙剧集，你会觉得自己是在看一部僵尸题材的电视剧，但又与我以前看过的任何此类剧集都不同，这其中有一个极其精彩的集数。之后还有一集类似的，也是极具魅力的故事讲述方式，真是太棒了。至于电影方面，《芭比》电影比我预期得要好得多，坦率地说，它证明了我们几乎可以将任何东西编成故事，只要这些故事有意义，那它们就能够取得非凡成功。
My next question, I don't know if it makes sense to ask you, it's usually for product people and founders. But the question is, you have a favorite interview question you'd like to ask people when you're hiring. Is there anything that comes up when I ask that? I guess, I'll say it's the question I like to ask people most often, maybe when I'm playing golf and things. I don't like to ask people what they do. I like to ask, how did you get into the job you currently have? It's a dangerous question because occasionally I ask people it and they realize they're in their job for like weird happenstances that don't relate to what they dreamed of doing. So I've had like two people in my life cry while they answer the question because they suddenly understand, I'm doing this because my sister got me into the company 16 years ago and I go, oh, well, that's great.
当然，我不确定这个问题是否适合问你，因为通常这是问产品经理或创始人的问题。不过，我的问题是：当你要招聘时，你有没有最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题？当我提到这个问题时，你脑海中浮现出什么吗？我想说，这是我最常喜欢问人们的问题，可能在我打高尔夫或其他情况下。我不喜欢问人们他们的工作是什么，而是问他们是如何进入他们现在的工作的。这是个有风险的问题，因为有时候我会让人们意识到，他们从事的工作是因为一些与他们梦想无关的奇怪机缘。所以，在我的生活中，有两个人在回答这个问题时哭了，因为他们突然明白：“我之所以做这份工作，是因为我姐姐在16年前把我介绍到这家公司。”然后我会说，哦，那也很好啊。
Is that what you always wanted to do? And they say, no, it's actually still not what I want to do. But I do think that most of the time how you get a job is more interesting than the actual job you're doing. The answer to that question is more interesting. You have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really like whether it's an app or a company bot. Well, if you celebrate Christmas for years, I have had an idea on how to design the best Christmas tree stand. And I finally said someone must have done it and they did. So I wrote it down for you. It's the critter tree stand. The critter tree genie is extraordinary. It's exactly what I would have designed if I had any ability to design it. It holds up the tree like none other. It takes two seconds. It is everything that the research told me it would do. It's fantastic.
这就是你一直想做的事情吗？他们说，不，其实这仍然不是我想做的。不过，我确实认为，大多数时候找到一份工作的过程比工作本身更有趣。回答这个问题的过程更有意思。最近有没有你特别喜欢的新发现，比如一个应用程序或公司的产品？如果你庆祝圣诞节，多年来我一直有个想法，设计一个最好的圣诞树底座。我最终想，肯定有人确实做出来了，结果真有。我为你写下来了，就是这个“Critter Tree Stand”。“Critter Tree Genie”非常了不起，正是我如果有能力设计的话会设计出来的样子。它支撑圣诞树的效果无与伦比，只需两秒钟就搞定。所有研究告诉我的它的优点，它都做到了，真是太棒了。
If you don't celebrate Christmas, I will tell you that a power pod, which is a small, it attaches to your keychain and it will charge your phone twice and it just lives on your keychain. So I am never a person who's going, oh, no, I don't have any charge left. I have two charges on a power pod, which lives on my keychain. You forget a bit that's even there. And then one day you need it and it's fantastic. It's the best one. There's lots of versions of it. The power pods is the one you want. And then I just bought a hot dog toaster that toasts the hot dogs and the buns at the same time. It's called an nostalgia hot dog toaster. It looks like it's from the 1950s. It's really beautiful. Actually, it's kind of the kind of thing you want to put on your counter because it looks fantastic. My son and I love it because we like hot dogs and it'll put two buns and two hot dogs into the toaster. You pull it down three minutes later. You have a hot dog ready to go. You didn't dirty anything.
如果你不过圣诞节，我想告诉你有一种叫做“Power Pod”的小工具。它非常小，可以挂在你的钥匙链上，并且能够给手机充两次电。因为挂在钥匙链上，所以我从来不担心手机没电。我有两个充电量，放在钥匙链上的Power Pod就是这样方便。有时候你甚至会忘记它的存在，直到有一天你需要用它的时候，才会觉得太棒了。这是目前最好的产品，有很多类似的版本，但Power Pod是你想要的那个。
另外，我刚买了一个可以同时烤热狗和面包的热狗烤面包机，叫做Nostalgia热狗烤面包机。它看上去像是上世纪五十年代生产的，非常漂亮，放在厨房台面上也很美观。我的儿子和我都很喜欢它，因为我们喜欢吃热狗。它可以同时放两个面包和两根热狗，然后三分钟就烤好了，而且不需要弄脏任何东西。
So it's not the best hot dog in the world, but hot dogs are pretty great no matter how they're cooked. So I fully support the nostalgia hot dog toaster. These are amazing selections. There's also call back to your nostalgia trick for getting to be funny. Right. That's true. Yes. Unintended, but I'll take credit for it. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat yourself, share with friends, either in work or in life? Yeah, and change my life, really. When I was in fourth grade, a teacher who, and I don't remember what teacher it was, which kills me. I was having a bad day and I was being the way that most people are, frankly. And the teacher said to me, listen, a positive mental attitude will be your key to success. And I don't know why it stuck in my head, but it did. I have said that to myself 100,000 times.
这可能不是世界上最好吃的热狗，但不管怎么烹饪，热狗都很不错。所以我完全支持这种充满怀旧感的热狗烤面包机。这些都是很棒的选择。这样也能唤起你的怀旧感，甚至让你变得更幽默。没错，虽然不是故意的，但我愿意因此而被称赞。你有没有常常对自己重复或者和朋友分享的人生格言，无论是在工作中还是生活里？有，这改变了我的生活。在我四年级的时候，一位老师——我记不起是哪位了，这让我很遗憾——在我度过糟糕的一天、表现如同大多数人一样时，告诉我：“积极的心态是成功的关键。”不知为什么，这句话一直留在我的脑海中。我对自己重复过这句话无数次。
And today, there's one human being in the world who I think is more positive than me, one human being who I've met, who has more positivity than me. I am a relentlessly positive. Almost my wife says, offensively positive person. Like she's like, you know what? Some days you can't have a bad day. And I said, I just don't because a positive mental attitude is my key to success. And it's really the way I frame so much of my life is looking to the positive, looking to the good. And I do it for people whenever I can and sometimes it frustrates people, but I really believe that most of life is the mindset that you bring to it. And for me, in fourth grade, a positive mental attitude will be your key to success. For some reason, hit me at the right moment in the right way and it stayed with me ever since. It's interesting about that is it's not even like that well cleverly put. It sounds like a fortune cookie.
今天，我发现世界上有一个人比我还要乐观，这个人是我见过的，他的乐观程度超过了我。我是一个极度乐观的人，几乎可以说是过分乐观。我的妻子常说，有些日子你就不能有个坏心情吗？我回答说，我就是不能，因为积极的心态是我成功的关键。我的生活很多都是通过积极和美好的角度来审视。我尽可能地在别人面前表现得乐观，有时候这会让人沮丧，但我真的相信，大多数人生都是由你所带来的心态所决定的。对我来说，从四年级开始，积极的心态将是你成功的关键，在某种情况下对我产生了很大的影响，并一直伴随我至今。有趣的是，这听起来甚至并不那么深刻，就像一句幸运饼干上的话。
Yeah, you get. And you're like, yeah, sure. But I love that that really had so much impact on you that stuck with you. Yeah, I think it was probably timing really. I think I was really like having a hard time. And I know at the time, like two of my friends were like not being my friend anymore. And they were my only two friends sort of at the time. And I think I was just open and ready to hear something that I could do to make my life better. And that was the one. And I'm probably predisposed to being an optimist anyway. So it probably landed just right for me. A positive mental attitude will be your key to success. Amazing. A final question, maybe just to leave listeners with one tactical thing they can do to become better storytellers. What would that?
是的，你懂的。你说，当然啊。不过我真的很喜欢这种对你产生了深远影响并一直留在你心中的感觉。我想这可能是时机的问题。当时我过得很艰难，我知道当时我的两个朋友不再和我做朋友了，他们几乎是我仅有的两个朋友。所以我很渴望听到一些可以改善我生活的方法，而那正是我要找的。或许我天生就是个乐观主义者，所以这种想法对我来说正合适。积极的心态将是你成功的关键。太棒了。最后一个问题，也许可以给听众留下一个实用的建议，让他们成为更好的讲故事者。那会是什么呢？
So two things should start every story you ever tell for the rest of your life. So you start with location. Where are you? Location activates imagination. Right? If I say I'm standing in the kitchen, you've already automatically applied a thousand adjectives to my story. You see the kitchen with great clarity. Probably put me in your own kitchen or your parents' kitchen or a kitchen you see on TV. But if the particularities of the kitchen are relevant to the story, that's what I want you to do. I'm not interested in reproducing locations with some kind of visual accuracy in your brain. I want you to see a fully realized location. So I love location because it's one word that comes imbued with a thousand adjectives. So you start with location and you start with action, meaning something needs to be happening right away. Like literally I am in a place and I'm doing a thing.
讲故事时，有两件事应该作为每个故事的开头，适用于你今后的每一个故事。首先要提到的是地点。你在哪里？地点能够激发想象力，对吧？如果我说我站在厨房，你就会立刻往我的故事中加入成千上万个形容词。你能非常清晰地看到厨房，可能会把我放在你的厨房，或者你父母的厨房，或者你在电视上看到的某个厨房里。但如果厨房的具体细节对故事很重要，这就是我希望你做到的。我并不关心在你的脑中重现一个视觉上的逼真场景，我希望你能看到一个完整具体的地点。所以我喜欢地点这个概念，因为它是一个包含了千百个形容词的词。接下来是行动，也就是说事情需要立即发生。我在一个地方，并正在做一件事情。
It indicates to the audience that you're actually going to tell something that's moving forward. It's why there's a big spaceship shooting a little spaceship in the opening of Star Wars. It's why there's a police officer chasing a guy across a roof. Something is already happening. We didn't start with, you know, we didn't start with nonsense. We started with something happening that grabbed us right away. That's what people want from storytelling.
这表明你正在向观众传达一个正在前进的故事。这就是为什么《星球大战》的开头有一艘大飞船在追逐一艘小飞船。也就是为什么有警察在屋顶上追捕某人。故事一开始就已经有事情在发生，而不是从一些无关紧要的内容开始，我们从一开始就被吸引住了。这正是人们对讲故事的期待。
Also, if you're a person unlike me, which is to say anyone who isn't sort of a white, straight American man with no physical or mental disabilities who thinks, I've always thought every room I walk into, I have the right to speak. But if you are unlike me in those regards, you often find, and I know this is true, it's harder to make space to get people to hear you if you're from any marginalized or discriminated against group in any way.
如果你和我不同，也就是说，你不是一个没有任何身体或心理障碍的白人、直男、美国人，并且一直认为自己在进入每个房间时都有权发言的人。那么，你会发现（而且我确信这是事实），如果你属于任何被边缘化或受到歧视的群体，想让别人听到你的声音就更困难。
But what I have been told by women and people of color and members of the LGBTQ community, they've discovered that when I start a story by going, I'm in a place doing a thing. It's a signal to people that I am now telling a story. And when you can signal to people, I'm now telling a story, they will get quiet for you and they will afford you the opportunity to speak.
但是，女性、有色人种和LGBTQ群体告诉我，他们发现当我用“我在某地做某事”这样的方式开始一个故事时，这就是一种信号，表示我开始讲故事了。当你能够向人们发出这个信号时，他们通常会安静下来，给你一个说话的机会。
I didn't know this was going to be the case, but I have had many, many people who I teach the skill to come back to me and say, my God, people listen to me. And they've said, I think they listen because I tell a good story. But they've told me, because I start with that location and action, it just tells people like the movies on, nobody talks during the movie, like you can eat popcorn, but you're not allowed to talk.
我之前不知道会这样，但有很多很多我教过这项技能的人回来对我说，天哪，大家都愿意听我说话。他们认为别人会听，是因为他们讲得故事很有趣。但其实他们告诉我，是因为他们从一开始就设置了地点和行动，就像电影开场一样，没人会在电影中途讲话。你可以吃爆米花，但不能说话。
And that's what it silences the room for you and affords you some space to then start doing the work that a good storyteller does to hold those people's attention. So start every story you ever tell for the rest of your life, with those two things and you're already going to be like 50% better than you were before you heard this.
这就是为什么它能让房间安静下来，为你提供一些空间，让你开始像一个优秀的讲故事者那样吸引大家的注意力。所以，今后的每个故事，都要以这两个要素开始，那样你就已经比听到这句话之前的水平提高了50%。
Well, the hits just keep on coming. Matt, you're much more of a philosopher than I imagined you were when we started this conversation. I learned a ton. I'm really excited for people to learn from you. Working folks find you a line if they want to learn more or continue learning from you and work with you potentially, especially companies.
看来意外惊喜不断啊。马特，你比我刚开始和你交谈时想象的要更有哲学思考。我学到了很多，非常期待更多人可以向你学习。如果有人或公司想进一步了解你或有意与你合作，方便的话可以留个联系方式。
And then finally, how can listeners be useful to you? Sure. So you can find me at massudix.com or if you're a business oriented person or someone who wants to learn, I also have storyworthy MD.com, my initials MD. And that's where I sort of have courses and online training and things like that. So either place, you'll be able to find me and contact me.
最后，听众可以如何对您有所帮助呢？好的。您可以通过访问 massudix.com 找到我。如果您感兴趣于商业或想学习一些东西，我还有另外一个网站 storyworthyMD.com，MD 是我的姓名缩写。在那里，我提供课程和在线培训等。所以，通过这两个网站，您都可以找到并联系到我。
You know, in a non-self serving sort of version of your second part of the question, I think if you just tell stories, but more importantly, if you ask people to tell you stories, again, creating that space, listen for people who say things like, oh, something like that happened to me once. What they're really saying is, I wish someone would want to hear what happened to me once.
你知道，从不自私的角度来看你的问题的第二部分，我认为如果你仅仅讲述故事，更重要的是，邀请别人给你讲述他们的故事，并为此创造一个空间。当你听到有人说“哦，我也曾经历过类似的事情”时，他们实际上是在表达希望有人愿意倾听他们的经历。
And so I am always someone who's willing to say, oh, tell me that story. Offer someone five minutes of your time so they can finally speak the thing that they've been waiting to speak to someone. So if you just do that, there's going to be more opportunities for storytelling in the world and ultimately perhaps that will funnel down to me where they will want to buy my book or visit my website or take some training with me.
因此，我总是愿意说：“哦，告诉我那个故事。” 我愿意花五分钟时间去倾听，让别人有机会说出他们一直想说的话。如果你这样做，世界上就会有更多讲故事的机会，最终也许会让我受益，比如他们会想购买我的书、访问我的网站或参加我的培训。
But just create space for storytelling. I think that'd be a beautiful thing. I love it. What a beautiful way to end it. Matt, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much, Lenny. I really appreciate it. Bye everyone.
给讲故事创造一些空间。我觉得这将是一件美好的事情。我喜欢这样。真是个美好的结束方式。马特，非常感谢你的到来。非常感谢，伦尼。我非常感激。再见，大家。
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非常感谢您的收听。如果您觉得这期节目有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您常用的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。同时，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这会帮助其他听众更容易地找到我们的播客。您还可以在 Lenny's Podcast 网站查找所有过往节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。下一集再见！