How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO)

We can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture, including candor, learning, seeking excellence and improvement, freedom and responsibility, if you don't start with high talent density. And in some ways, it's very reflective of Reed Hastings as founder of Netflix. So when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time, it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places, both in the quality of that talent density, but even more importantly, like the excellence and the outcomes. And that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment. So it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days. And in order to do that, you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior.

如果你不从高才能密度开始，我们就很难在文化中拥有其他方面，包括坦诚、学习、追求卓越和进步、自由与责任。在某种程度上，这也很好地体现了Netflix创始人里德·哈斯廷斯的特点。因此，当他创立Netflix并逐渐发展公司时，他相信可以采取一种不同的方式来建立公司，使其成为人们茁壮成长和热爱的地方，与其他地方有所不同，无论是在才能密度的质量方面，更重要的是在卓越和结果方面。这就是人们获得满足感的地方。这种理念从Netflix成立之初就根深蒂固。为了做到这一点，你必须真正自律，追求很多看起来不像自然人类行为的事情。

Today, my guest is Elizabeth Stone. Elizabeth is chief technology officer at Netflix. And as far as I can tell, the first economist to ever be named CTO at a Fortune 500 company. Prior to this role, Elizabeth was vice president of data and insights. Before Netflix, she was vice president of science at Lyft COO at Nuna, a trader at Merrill Lynch, and an economist at Analysts Group. In our conversation, we cover a lot of ground. We talk about how an economics background has helped Elizabeth in her career and why she expects to see more economists rise in the ranks of tech companies. She shares some of her secret sauce for rising so quickly at so many companies, so consistently.

今天，我的嘉宾是伊丽莎白·斯通。伊丽莎白是奈飞公司的首席技术官。据我所知，她是首位被任命为财富500强公司首席技术官的经济学家。在担任这个职务之前，伊丽莎白是数据和洞察副总裁。在加入奈飞之前，她曾担任Lyft的科学副总裁、Nuna公司的首席运营官、美银美林的交易员以及Analysts Group的经济学家。在我们的对话中，我们涵盖了很多内容。我们谈到了经济学背景如何帮助伊丽莎白在她的职业生涯中，并解释了她为什么预计会看到更多经济学家在科技公司中崭露头角。她分享了在如此多的公司如此迅速地晋升的一些秘诀。

We delve into Netflix's very unique culture of high talent density, radical candor, and freedom and responsibility. We also talk about the structure that Netflix has for their data and user research teams, which she believes is a part of Netflix's secret to success. We also get into what biking and triathlons have taught Elizabeth about life and how she brings that into her work. And so much more, a huge thank you to Ali Rao for introducing me to Elizabeth. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. This helps tremendously, and I really appreciate it. With that, I bring you Elizabeth Stone after a short word from our sponsors.

我们深入探讨Netflix独特的文化，包括高才华密度、激进坦诚和自由和责任。我们还讨论了Netflix为他们的数据和用户研究团队制定的结构，她认为这是Netflix成功的秘密之一。我们还探讨了骑自行车和铁人三项对伊丽莎白生活教给她的东西，以及她如何将这些经验带入工作中。非常感谢Ali Rao介绍我认识Elizabeth。如果你喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在你喜爱的播客应用或YouTube上关注这个播客。这对我来说帮助很大，我真的非常感激。有了这个，让我们在赞助商简短的介绍之后欢迎Elizabeth Stone。

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Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you, thank you for having me. So when we booked this conversation, you were VP of data and Netflix, and since then you got a promotion, you're now the CTO of Netflix, which feels significantly more fancy. Question for you. What is life like now that you are CTO versus VP of data? How is it most different? I'm imagining more meetings. I would say the biggest thing that changed is probably the amount of context switching and the degree to which I feel behind or I have a lot to learn. And I felt like I had a lot to learn in the VP of data and insights role that I was in before. In part, because we cover a lot of different areas of the business and there's always people to learn from, but the engineering organization just takes that to 100, basically. So more people to get to know, more problem spaces, aspects of technical expertise that I'm just not as deeply familiar with. And then yeah, we'll have more meetings. I can imagine many higher stakes meetings as well. Yes, so thankfully not a lot of meetings at Netflix feel like now you're really in this scary room, but it does feel like the role has more consequence, which is actually an exciting thing.

伊丽莎白，非常感谢你能来参加这个播客节目，欢迎你。谢谢，谢谢你邀请我。所以当我们安排这次对话时，你还是Netflix的数据副总裁，但是现在你得到了晋升，成为了Netflix的首席技术官，感觉更加高级了。请问你，现在作为首席技术官与数据副总裁相比，生活有什么不同？最大的区别是什么？我想会有更多的会议吧。我会说最大的变化大概是换项目的频率增加了，以及我感觉自己落后或还有很多要学习的地方增加了。我觉得之前我在数据与见解副总裁的角色中就已经有很多要学习的地方了。这部分是因为我们涉及到业务的许多不同领域，总是有人可以学习，但是工程组织把这一点扩大了100倍。所以有更多的人要认识，更多的问题领域，以及我并不那么熟悉的技术专业方面。然后是，是的，我们会有更多的会议。我可以想象有很多更重要的会议。是的，谢天谢地，在Netflix的会议中并不像是你现在真的进入了一个可怕的房间，但是感觉这个角色更有影响力，其实这是一件令人兴奋的事情。

Kind of along the lines of what you just talked about being a CTO, your background is actually unusual. You're a trained economist. You got a PhD in economics. And from what I can tell, you're the first CTO of Fortune 500 company that is an economist trained in economics. First of all, is that true? I don't know if that's, I think that's true, but you tell me. I have not checked the list. That was one of the things I did not do after getting the title. I might be unusual. I have heard a lot of feedback on that. So I don't know if I'm the one and only, but I will definitely say it's probably unusual. Yeah, so I guess the question is just, do you think this is an anomaly and gonna continue to be really rare? Do you think this is, some are gonna see more tech companies. And generally, do you think tech companies should hire more economists? Yes, to the last question. That's the easiest of it. But one of the things I observed, even with the focus on data science, where I've been deeper for a period of time, is that economics is a flavor of data science. So it's a set of technical skills for sure. It's a way of framing certain problems or solving challenges. And so when I was first switching from economics into tech, it was before there was a lot of sort of the frenzy around data science that we've seen more recently. And it was harder to make that argument that economics is a flavor of data science and maybe complementary to other versions of data science. And I feel more strongly about that now that I've seen it up close. And so maybe by extension, I would say, just like I think data science can be helpful for a lot of different problems that you might not immediately think, oh, this is something that we should bring data to. I think that economics is generally valuable for a lot of different challenges. And it's a useful perspective to add to things, especially in a business context. And especially in how we wanna simplify problems in a way that makes them feel tractable. So I feel like that's been a benefit to me to have had that type of formal training and then bring that perspective or way of thinking to different roles. And so I don't know that many people in Netflix think of me as an economist, but I find it comes out in the way I think about things.

就像你刚刚谈到的担任首席技术官（CTO）一样，你的背景实际上是非常不寻常的。你是一名受过经济学训练的人。你获得了经济学博士学位。据我所知，你是第一个在经济学上受过训练的财富500强公司的首席技术官。首先，这是真的吗？我不知道，我觉得是真的，但你告诉我。我没有查阅名单。那是我获得头衔后没有做的事情之一。我可能很不同寻常。我听到了很多反馈。所以我不知道我是独一无二的，但我肯定会说这可能不寻常。所以我想问题就是，你认为这是个例外而且会继续非常罕见吗？你认为科技公司会雇佣更多的经济学家吗？对于最后一个问题，是的，这是最容易回答的。但我观察到的其中一点，即使是在我深入研究数据科学时，是经济学是数据科学的一种形式。所以它肯定是一组技术技能。它是一种解决问题或应对挑战的方式。所以当我从经济学转向科技时，那是在数据科学引起狂热之前的时期，更难以提出经济学是数据科学的一种形式，也许与其他形式的数据科学互补。现在我对此更有把握，因为我近距离观察了这一现象。所以也许间接地说，我会说，就像我认为数据科学对许多不同问题可能有帮助，你可能不会立即认为，哦，这是我们应该引入数据的问题。我认为经济学一般对许多不同挑战都有价值。这是一种有用的视角，可在不同的情况下添加到事物中，特别是在商业背景下。特别是在我们希望以一种使问题感觉可解的方式简化问题时。所以我觉得对我来说，能够接受这种类型的正规训练，然后将这种视角或思考方式带到不同的角色中，这是一个好处。所以我不知道在Netflix中有多少人认为我是一名经济学家，但我发现在我看待事物的方式中，这一点会体现出来。

So to the extent that that's true, generally, I think it's useful in a lot of companies. And I feel like even since I made the switch towards tech, I've seen it become much, much more common to think about the value of having economists on teams. Just to pull on a threat a little bit more, is there something very tactical or concrete that you can share that you find helpful with that background that you found helpful in your career? Other than dismal dry science of it all. So one example would probably be in understanding incentives and thinking about unintended consequences. And I think that that is true, both in terms of internal leadership. So being part of a management team that's thinking about how do we clarify priorities or motivate a company or define the problems we want to solve? And then part of it is more externally oriented. How do we want to think about what Netflix is to consumers and how we want to think about competition? And there can be a rational way of thought, which is one version of economics of like, shouldn't rational, intelligent people behave in the following way? And then there's the, well, if given certain incentives, what might you see that we didn't think was optimal or we weren't expecting to happen but could be a consequence or repercussion here? And so I think that that type of framing, I don't know if it's unique to economics in a way, because it has elements of psychology to it as well and kind of planning ahead has become really useful for thinking through kind of cause and effect. So that has come up in a lot of different spaces and networks and in other roles I've been in.

因此，在大多数情况下，我认为在许多公司里这是有用的。我觉得，即使自从我转向科技领域以来，我已经看到在团队中拥有经济学家的价值变得更加普遍。您可以再提供一些更具体、实用的例子，除了这些枯燥的科学知识以外。一个例子可能是理解激励和考虑到意外后果。我认为这一点同样适用于内部领导力。参与一个管理团队，思考如何澄清优先事项、激励公司或者定义我们想要解决的问题。另一方面，更多是外部导向的。我们该如何思考Netflix对消费者的意义，以及我们该如何看待竞争？有一种理性的思维方式，这是经济学的一个版本，会想：“理性、聪明的人应该如何行事？”然后，还有一种，“如果给定一定的激励，我们可能看到我们没有预料到的不够优化或者我们没有预料到的后果或影响会出现在这里。”因此，我认为这种思维方式，我不知道是不是经济学独有的，因为它也有心理学的元素，并且提前规划对于思考因果关系非常有用。这在我所处的许多不同领域和网络以及其他角色中都得到了体现。

I was looking at your LinkedIn and looking at your career over the years. And it seems like you've had a meteoric rise at four different companies and I'll just walk through them briefly. So at your first job, you went from associate device president in three years. At the next company, you went from manager of data science to COO in two years. At Netflix, you went from VP to CTO in three years. I think that's really rare. I'm curious, what is your secret sauce to being so successful at so many places and especially in the context of what advice can you share with folks earlier in their career? This is one of those questions that sparks the reflection that I wouldn't normally do. So that's great. I really don't think of it as a secret sauce, but maybe I can walk through some of the things that I think have been instrumental. Because you listed that out. It's like, it sounds like the two to three year point is the real sweet spot. So maybe there's something about that timeline, but I think some things almost feel trite in how I would say them, which is I'm very dedicated to the work and to the teams I'm part of. It's been part of who I am for a long time that I give everything I've got to the job that I'm in. And I think that dedication and that I get joy out of that has mattered. It matters because I enjoy what I'm doing. I do the best work I possibly can less so for myself and my own ambition and more so because I think of myself as being part of a team. And so I really need to deliver for that team. And I think that framing in my mind and that motivation has helped me in a few fronts, which is the way in which I build partnerships with people I work with, that I really care about setting other people up for success and being someone that people want to work with. So I learn from them, they learn from me and we get better outcomes for the business together.

我在看你的 LinkedIn，看到了你这些年的职业生涯。似乎你在四家不同公司取得了惊人的成功，我简要地为你回顾一下。在你的第一份工作中，你在三年内从副总裁晋升为首席执行官。在接下来的公司，你在两年内从数据科学经理晋升为首席运营官。在 Netflix，你在三年内从副总裁升至首席技术官。我认为这非常罕见。我很好奇，你成功在这么多地方的秘诀是什么，尤其是在职业生涯较早阶段的人可以分享哪些建议？这是引起我思考的问题，我通常不会想到这个。所以很棒。我并不认为成功有什么秘诀，但也许我可以讲讲我认为起到关键作用的一些因素。因为你列出来了。听起来两到三年点是真正的黄金时刻。也许在那个时间表里有什么东西，但我觉得有些事情在我口中几乎是陈词滥调，那就是我对工作和团队非常投入。长时间以来，这就是我的一部分，我全力投入到我所在的工作中。我认为这种奉献精神以及从中获取快乐是很重要的。之所以很重要是因为我喜欢自己正在做的事。我尽最大可能地做好工作，并非为了自己的野心，而更多是因为我认为自己是团队的一部分。因此，我真的需要为那个团队努力。我认为自己的这种心态和动力在一些方面帮了我很多，在我与工作伙伴建立合作关系的方式，我确实很在意设置他人成功，并成为人们愿意共事的伙伴。所以，我向他们学习，他们也向我学习，我们共同为企业取得更好的业务成果。

I have found that part of that is being someone that people can leverage to translate from technical to non-technical and non-technical to technical. So that I do think has been a relative advantage in my role. So while I was often sitting in more technically oriented teams, a lot of the advancement in my career was to roles that required that type of communication fluency. And it grew out of being able to partner with people across the businesses who didn't necessarily have the same background, but where we needed to really connect spaces so that we could be more effective. And that was something that I think really the training for that came from analysis group, where it was a very quantitative set of work that we had to find a way to communicate to judges and juries for economic cases. So that was something that was trained in other roles. And I think I've been able to leverage. I'm a relatively introverted only child, so I observe a lot, which means that I learned from other people. And in each of these roles, I have tried really hard to watch what other people are doing, think about like, how could I learn something from them? Whether it's the thing that I wanna be able to do myself or it's the thing that I think, oh, that doesn't quite fit for if you'll authentic with my style. And I do a lot of that introspection. So I have been surrounded by amazing people in all these roles. And I have a feeling that I learned a lot by osmosis and observation and then have been able to leverage that to be stronger in the roles I was sitting in.

我发现，其中有一部分是成为人们可以利用的人，从技术到非技术，以及从非技术到技术的翻译者。我认为这在我的角色中是一个相对的优势。所以虽然我经常坐在更加技术导向的团队中，但我的职业生涯中很多的进步是到需要这种沟通流畅性的角色。这是出于与业务领域的人合作，他们并没有必须具备相同背景，但我们需要真正连接空间，以便更有效地合作。我认为这真正来自分析团队的培训，那里是一个非常定量的工作，我们必须找到一种方法来向法官和陪审团传达经济案例。所以在其他角色中我也得到了相关的训练。我是一个相对内向的独生子，所以我观察很多，这意味着我从他人身上学到了很多。在每一个角色中，我都努力去观察他人在做什么，思考如何能向他们学习一些东西？无论是我自己想要学会的东西，还是我认为并不完全符合我的风格的东西。我经常进行内省，所以在所有这些角色中，我被惊人的人包围。我觉得我通过渗透和观察学到了很多，然后能够借此在自己坐着的角色中更强大。

So I took a few notes here. So a few things you mentioned is just like dedication, essentially working really hard and taking your work seriously, being part of a team and setting other people up for success, translating complex tech language and problems to non-tech people, and then being really good at observing and learning from other people around you. Is there an example or two that you could share of some of these to make it even more concrete for people? Like dedication is that just like working many hours, being part of a team, anything along the line to share a story maybe to help people put this into practice? No, and it's a good clarification because the dedication piece really isn't about long working hours. It's more about how much I care about excellence, I guess. So giving it my best in those situations. And that might not mean that I work really wild hours or I work weekends or I'm the one who's willing to sacrifice the vacation. I've actually tried to avoid setting that as an expectation. But more that I hold myself to a very high standard. So an example would be especially as I've gotten more senior in roles, there can be an expectation that it's okay for other people to wait on me. So whether it's like the timing for a meeting or providing input on something or reviewing a document or following through on something I said that I was gonna do, and I really try to avoid that.

所以我在这里记了几条笔记。你提到的一些事情，比如奉献精神，就是努力工作，认真对待工作，成为团队的一部分，帮助其他人取得成功，将复杂的技术语言和问题翻译给非技术人员，并且善于观察和从周围的人学习。你能分享一两个例子吗？让人更容易理解？比如奉献精神是指努力工作很多小时，成为团队的一部分，类似的事情来分享一个故事，或者帮助人们将这个付诸实践？不，这是一个很好的澄清，因为奉献精神并不只是指长时间工作。更多的是关于我对卓越的关怀程度吧。在这些情况下尽最大的努力。这可能并不意味着我工作很长时间或者工作周末，或者我愿意牺牲假期。我实际上试图避免将这种期望设定下来。而是我对自己要求很高。一个例子是，特别是在我在更高级的职位上，可能会有人期望其他人等我。无论是会议的时间安排，提供某事的意见，审查文件，还是跟进我说过会做的事，我真的尽量避免这种情况。

Which means that if someone sends me something, I try to be very responsive about it. If I know that I said I'm gonna do something, I follow through on it in the timeline that I said I was gonna do. If I have a meeting, I try to be on time to that meeting. And those are all flavors of dedication to the work that show up in, oh, it seems like Elizabeth works really hard, but the motivation factor is other people are relying on me and I wanna show up for them. And so that's when I say dedication and it's related to the second point around showing up well for the team. Those would all be examples of, I feel urgency in responding to people and doing high quality work. For the other parts of technical to non-technical, I think a great example is actually a very timely one in Netflix, which is we are making strides to offer live content types. So live events, live TV shows, we announced this week that we're going to be hosting WWE, starting later this year and early next year 2025.

这意味着，如果有人发来消息给我，我会尽力及时回复。如果我答应要做某事，我会按照我所说的时间表完成。如果有会议，我会努力准时参加。这些都是对工作的专注表现，在工作中展现出来，别人会觉得我很努力，但动力是因为别人依赖我，我想要为他们出席。所以我说专注时，它与第二点有关，为团队出色表现。这些都是我感受到回应他人和做出高质量工作的紧迫感的例子。关于技术和非技术方面的其他部分，我认为Netflix就是一个很好的例子，最新的一个例子是，我们正努力提供直播内容。包括直播活动、直播电视节目，我们本周宣布将从今年年底开始，明年2025年初举办WWE赛事。

That is easier said than done. I know that there's a lot of entertainment companies that have live content, but Netflix has really been in the streaming content business. So live content is something new for us. And it's something that's gonna require a really close partnership between our content organization and our products and technology organization. Because there's a content strategy to it, there's a business strategy, there's a technology strategy to it. And a big part of my role is can I explain how we're gonna approach those technical problems in a way that builds confidence with the content team? And can I try to understand their content strategy in a way that sets the technical teams up for success? And we understand what we need to be able to deliver on here in terms of requirements. And I don't think I'd be able to do my current role well if I wasn't able to do that type of translation for something that's gonna be a big bet for the business. And so maybe we wanna invest in jointly. And then to set my partners up for success in that. So I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure we deliver well for my content partners because I feel like that's what's best for Netflix and the business. Amazing examples. In terms of life content, I think about the love is blind. I think it was for premier or whatever reunion that we got sucked into that show, so good job. And I think there were some issues with that, right?

这说起来容易，做起来难。我知道有很多娱乐公司都有直播内容，但Netflix一直以来都在流媒体内容业务上领先。所以直播内容对我们来说是新事物。这需要我们的内容组织与产品技术组织之间密切合作。因为这涉及到内容策略、商业策略和技术策略。我的工作很大一部分是能否解释我们将如何处理这些技术问题，并在内容团队中建立信心。我努力理解他们的内容策略，以便让技术团队成功地实现目标。我们明白了我们需要在要求方面提供的内容。如果我无法在这方面提供这种翻译服务，我将无法很好地完成当前的角色。因此，也许我们想要联合投资。然后让我的合作伙伴成功。我将尽我所能确保我们为合作伙伴提供优质内容，因为我认为这对Netflix和业务最有利。关于直播内容的惊人示例，我想到了《爱情是盲目》。我认为它是首映或者其他重聚节目，我们沉迷其中，表现得很出色。但我认为那里有一些问题，对吧？

That reunion stream. Yeah, that one, it's about a little less than a year ago now. So the amazing thing about failure is you learn a lot. We've taken notes on it and we had a couple of successful events after that including the Netflix Cup last October. And we've got some exciting events coming up. So I think that's something that strengthened us but did reveal that we're tackling a hard problem. Yeah, the Twitter feeds during that love is blind from your hilarious. People are pissed. Okay, and then in terms of keeping a high bar for yourself, I love that.

那场重逢的直播。是的，就是那个，现在已经过去将近一年了。失败最惊人的地方就是你能学到很多东西。我们做了笔记，那之后还举办了几次成功的活动，包括去年十月的Netflix杯比赛。我们还有一些令人兴奋的活动即将举行。所以我觉得这让我们更加坚强，但也揭示出我们在处理着一个艰难问题。是的，那段《爱情也瞎了》的Twitter帖子非常搞笑。人们都很生气。对自己保持高标准的立场，我喜欢这一点。

I think about a quote that there's a VC Anne-Marie Coe at floodgate and she did this interview with Tim Ferriss and she shared that her dad always asked her, are you doing a world-class job with this? Like, are you doing a world-class job with your homework? Are you doing a world-class job with your piano recital? And that's the bar that he always had for her. And I feel like that's a really good way to think about work and in a life in general, if you can. Yeah. My mother used to describe to me, probably still does, though it required more repeating when I was younger, that the last 5% is the 5% that really mattered. And so it is that framing of the thing, the extra effort you put into something to make it world-class or to make it excellent. And so I do like to push myself that way. And I hope it sets a good example for other people too. And it's very consistent with, especially the company cultures that I tend to thrive in, where that's the general expectation of the culture. So you don't feel like you're doing it alone. Because then I think you can start to feel frustrated by that. I know that this is a big part of Netflix culture and I want to get into it, but before that, I'm curious just what that looks like with people that report to you.

我想到了一句话，有一位风投投资者Anne-Marie Coe在floodgate，她在Tim Ferriss做了一个采访，她分享说她爸爸总是问她，你是否在这件事上表现得世界级？比如说，做作业是否世界级？弹钢琴演奏是否世界级？这是他对她的要求。我觉得这是一个很好的思考方式，无论是工作还是生活，如果你能考虑到这一点。是的。我母亲过去总是告诉我，可能现在依然如此，尽管在我年轻时需要重复多次，最后的那5%才是最重要的5%。因此，这是对事物的构架，你付出额外努力使之世界级或卓越。我喜欢用这种方式激励自己。我希望这也能为其他人树立一个好榜样。特别是我经常茁壮成长的公司文化，这与之非常一致，这是文化对我来说的一般期望。这样你就不会觉得孤立无援，因为我认为这样会开始感到沮丧。我知道这是Netflix文化的一个重要部分，我想讨论一下，但在此之前，我很好奇对于你领导的人来说，这是什么样子。

How do you help them level up in this skill of having a really high bar? And an example I'll give as you think about, maybe an example is the way I describe this to my PMs was, you want to have this aura that you've got this, that if you give Lenny something, he's got this. He's going to follow up, he's going to close the loop, he's going to get it done. If he can't get it done, he'll tell me, I feel like this thread will not disappear, you won't drop this ball. Is there anything that you've learned as a good way to help someone learn this kind of skill? I understand why this is so important. It shows up for the people who report to me is one part example setting. So if I don't do it, why would they do it? And I treat that very seriously, that we should all be held to the same standards.

你如何帮助他们提升这种对标准要求极高的技能？我会举个例子来说明，也让你想一想，也许一个例子是我告诉我的产品经理们的方式是，你想要拥有一种氛围，让人觉得你可以应对任何情况，如果你给Lenny某件事，他会处理好的。他会跟进，会完成，如果他不能完成，他会告诉我，我感觉这件事不会消失，你不会放弃。你学到有什么好方法可以帮助某人学会这种技能吗？我理解这为什么如此重要。对于向我报告的人来说，一个部分是示范榜样。如果我自己不做，他们为什么要做呢？我认真对待这一点，我们都应该被同等标准约束。

And as a second thing, I give feedback when it's not up to the standard. So I think one of the things I've observed, especially with people on my teams is that the expectations aren't always clear and you can't assume that they're clear if you don't share them. And when something's not meeting expectations or really showing up as excellence, I think it's a combination of both giving the feedback on that and being direct about it and being specific about what would it take to get this to the bar that I'm expecting or to show up in the way that I'm expecting. And then the third and probably most important thing is help them fill that gap. So that would mean, like, let's take an example. It certainly has happened frequently in many jobs. Like a document is, okay, it's not great. It's not gonna be easy for people to follow. It's not as crisp as it could be. There's things that would strengthen it. I can both give the feedback on that to make sure, like, yes, it's gonna take another round of iteration. Yes, we're gonna have to work another week on this and not be done with it, but pushing people to get there and then jumping into the document and helping. So I feel very strongly about, and that's kind of what I mean by setting an example of like, let's work on this together. And then through that, help people uplevel themselves. So the next time around, they know the expectations and they've had help kind of getting there in the past. So that's probably happened a thousand times in my career where I jump in with both feet because something needs to be better. And I think the teams are better for it afterwards or I hope they are.

另外一件事是，当工作不达标时，我会提供反馈。所以我觉得我观察到的一件事，特别是和我在团队里的人，就是期望不总是清晰的，你不能假设他们清楚，如果你不把期望分享出来的话。当某事不能满足期望或者没有达到卓越表现时，我认为需要结合反馈、直接表达并明确说明要达到我期望的标准，或者表现的方式。第三件，也可能是最重要的一件事就是帮助他们填补这个差距。比如，让我们举个例子，这在许多工作中经常发生。比如一个文档，不好，人们不容易理解，不够清晰，有一些地方需要加强。我既可以反馈意见，确保需要再过一轮修改。是的，我们可能需要再花一周的时间来完成，但是鼓励人们努力去实现，然后直接介入到文档中去帮助。所以我非常强调，这就是我所说的，让我们一起努力解决问题。通过这种方式，帮助人们提升自己。所以下一次，他们就知道期望是什么，而且过去曾得到帮助。在我的职业生涯中，这种情况可能发生了上千次，我全力以赴，因为某件事需要更好。我认为团队在此之后会更好，或者我希望他们会更好。

I think that's such a good framework just to kind of mirror back what you said, set expectations that the bar is gonna be really high and there's what I'm expecting from you. Give them very specific feedback on where the gap is and then help them fill that gap. And I think a lot of people may feel this and hear this and are like, oh man, I don't want a manager that's like this hive and expectation person and it just feels really stressful. But I've had these managers and I feel like they're, that's when I've learned the most and leveled up the most. It's having someone that gave me had really high expectations and then helped me understand here's where you're not doing as well as you can. I know you can do better, go back and work on this. Like I know that sounds annoying, but I think in practice, it ends up helping you most in your career. I imagine you've seen a similar result. I think so. I mean, you'd have to ask some of the people on my team. So I might look at it differently than they look at it. It's a hard skill because it's not always easy to give feedback, especially if you feel like, you know, someone's put a lot of effort into something. And so I give a lot of thought to how I deliver that feedback. So it feels like we're on the same team and I'm trying to help them be successful, not to help, you know, encourage failure. And that's where I think that third piece of the framework of jumping in to help can make people feel like, I'm in a safe space. My manager wants me to be successful. My manager's helping me here. And I do often do that behind the scenes. So maybe that's another flavor of this, which is I don't do it live in the big meeting in front of all the people where the presentation doesn't go very well. I do it afterwards where it feels like a safer space to say, here's a way this could have gone better. Let's think about this differently next time. So it gives people, you know, a little grace, you know, and a little bit of an ability to absorb that feedback without feeling like it's kind of on a stage.

我认为这样的框架非常好，只是简单地将你说的内容反馈回去，设定预期值会很高，我期望你做出来。给他们非常具体的反馈，告诉他们差距在哪里，然后帮助他们填补这个差距。我觉得很多人可能会感到这样，并且听到这样的话会觉得，哦，我不想要一个这样强调期望的经理，感觉太有压力了。但是我有这样的经理，我觉得他们让我学到最多、提升到更高的水平。有一个人对我有很高的期望，然后帮助我理解，这里你做得还不够好。我知道你可以做得更好，回去再重点工作这个。我知道这听起来有点烦人，但我认为在实践中，这最终会对你的职业生涯最有帮助。我想你也见过类似的效果。我认为是的。不过你得问问我的团队里的一些人。所以我可能对此有不同的看法。这是一项难以掌握的技能，因为给出反馈并不总是容易的，尤其是如果你觉得某人在某事上付出了很多努力。所以我会很认真地考虑我如何传达这个反馈。所以让他感觉我们是同一团队，我试图帮助他们成功，而不是帮助他们鼓励失败。这就是我认为帮助进入这个框架的第三个部分能够让人感觉，我处在一个安全的空间。我的经理希望我成功。我的经理在帮助我。我通常都是在幕后这么做。也许这还有另一种方式，就是我不会在大会上直接做，当演示不如人意时。我会在之后去做，这样会感觉像一个更安全的空间，说，这个地方可以做得更好。下次我们可以换个方式思考这个问题。这样给人们一点宽容，也能更好地吸收这个反馈，而不会感觉自己置身舞台之上。

Another thing someone may be feeling when they're hearing this is like, oh my God, this is gonna be taking me so many hours to just get it to a place Elizabeth is happy with. And I know you said that this doesn't mean necessarily many hours. Do you have any advice or thoughts on just how to avoid like burnout and working all the time, but also keeping this really high bar and high expectations? It truly is not about time. I even found myself in a meeting earlier today saying, if we're clear on the objectives of something, it might be that the last 20% of polish on the document is a really bad use of time.

当某人听到这些时，可能会感觉到另一件事是：哦，天啊，我要花很多时间才能让它达到伊丽莎白满意的程度。我知道你说这并不一定意味着很多小时。你有什么建议或想法可以避免过度劳累和工作时间过长，同时保持这么高的标准和期望吗？实际上这不是关于时间的问题。我甚至在今天早些时候的会议上说过，如果我们清楚某事的目标，最后那20%的文档修饰可能是一个非常浪费时间的做法。

So if we're gonna come together to talk through like quarterly business review was the example, what were the highlights, what were the lowlights, what were the learnings from the quarter, where are their places of misalignment? The reason we're doing the quarterly business review is to have a really candid conversation about how we think things are going to have a debate about things where maybe we're stuck. It's not to have a perfectly polished document for that conversation. So my feedback in that instance would be, I would much rather have someone spend the time thinking about what's the conversation we really wanna have? How do I tee that up? Not could I spend another 20 hours to make it look like everything's perfect in this document.

所以如果我们要一起讨论类似季度业务审查这样的事情，那么要重点关注的是哪些亮点，哪些低点，这个季度有什么收获，存在哪些分歧？我们进行季度业务审查的目的是为了真诚地讨论我们认为事情的走向，为可能卡壳的事情进行辩论。并不是为了准备一个完美无缺的文件。所以在那种情况下，我的建议是，我更希望有人花时间考虑我们真正想要进行的对话是什么？如何进行铺垫？而不是花另外20个小时让文件看起来完美无瑕。

And so I think in that sense, it's not just excellence like you wrote the perfect document. I should probably be careful to not use that as the only example, but instead we really got to the outcome. We wanted to get to you because we were thoughtful about it and we put a lot of energy and time and iteration into making sure we got to that outcome. And is this an example where you gave someone feedback because they spent too much time on the polish? Or is this earlier and to give the pyramid of this framework you kind of shared of set expectations, give specific feedback, help them fill the gap and then do it in private? Is this like the expectation setting in this example or is this like feedback you spent too much time on?

因此，在这个意义上，卓越不仅仅是指你写了完美的文件。我应该谨慎地不要把这个作为唯一的例子，而是我们真正关心的是结果。我们想要达到目标，因为我们考虑周到，并且投入了大量的精力、时间和反复推敲，以确保我们达到了这个目标。这是否是一个例子，你给了某人反馈，因为他们花了太多时间在打磨上？还是早期给出这个框架的金字塔，你分享了设定期望、给予具体反馈、帮助他们填补差距，然后在私下里做这些事情？这个例子是否就是设定期望，还是像你花费太多时间在反馈上？

This is expectation setting. So one of the things in my new role is that there's some practices that the team has had where they're trying to understand are we still gonna have those practices? What's gonna be the same versus different about those things and get an understanding of my expectations? So it's great that people ask that question so that I can be clear about, oh wait, if you're on the last 20% of this polishing the doc, I'd rather spend time over here. And here's how I would like the conversation to go. So we all get something out of it instead of it feeling like it's just a leadership reviewer on my behalf.

这是对期望的设定。在我新的角色中，团队曾经有一些做法，他们想了解我们是否仍然会保留这些做法？关于这些事情有哪些会保持不变，有哪些会不同，以及了解我的期望。所以很棒的是人们提出了这个问题，这样我可以清楚地表明，哦，如果你正在做最后20%的文档润色，我宁愿花时间在这里。我希望对话进行的方式是这样的。这样我们所有人都能从中获益，而不只是感觉像是我代表我的领导在审查。

So this in this specific situation it was setting expectations ahead of time so that we can set everyone up for success. Awesome, okay, so we've kind of been talking around this but this is an important part of the Netflix culture. So just broadly, Netflix has a really special and unique culture, even though it's been around for I think over 25 years now, it feels like the culture has come up many times. There's that initial culture deck that came out that kind of blew everyone's minds. There's a recent book, No Rules Rules, I think it's called, and it feels like Netflix has done a great job at maintaining its culture.

在这种特定情况下，这是提前设定期望，以便我们能让每个人都取得成功。太棒了，好的，我们已经在围绕这个话题讨论了一段时间，但这是Netflix文化中的重要部分。总的来说，Netflix拥有一个非常特别和独特的文化，尽管它已经存在了我认为超过25年，但感觉文化已经出现过很多次。最初发布的文化宣言令人印象深刻。最近有一本书，我想它叫做《无规则规则》，感觉Netflix在维持其文化方面做得很好。

And it feels to me there's kind of these three important elements and maybe there's more. One is a very high talent density and a focus on high performers. Two is candor and being really direct. And then three is giving people freedom and responsibility and getting rid of useless processes like vacation time and things like that. So maybe just to dive into that first one of high talent density and the focus on high performance. I guess the question there is just like, how does this actually look? What does this look like in Netflix and imagine part of it as hiring, part of it is performance reviews.

对我来说，有三个很重要的因素，可能还有更多。第一是人才密度高，专注于高绩效者。 第二是坦诚直率。 第三是给予人们自由和责任，并消除无用的流程，比如假期等等。 所以也许我们可以深入探讨第一个因素，即高人才密度和专注于高绩效的问题。 我猜问题就是，这到底是什么样子呢？ 在Netflix中是什么样子？ 想象一下，这部分包括招聘，包括绩效评估。

And then just why is it so important? Why is this such a focus in Netflix? What is it, what happens when you have such a high talent density? It's just so intrinsic to Netflix is as a company and in some ways it's very reflective of redease things as founder of Netflix. So when he founded Netflix and grew the company over time it was with a belief that there could be a different approach to building a company that would make it a place that people thrived in and loved being and would feel different than other places both in the quality of that talent density but even more importantly like the excellence and the outcomes and that that's where people would derive a lot of sense of fulfillment. So it's very deeply seated at Netflix from its original days and a big piece of that talent density is definitely hiring. So who are the people coming in and joining the team? But a lot of it is we can't really have any of the other aspects of the culture including candor, learning, seeking excellence and freedom and responsibility if you don't start with high talent density. And so in some ways that's a, it's not the end, it's the means to the end in what read and the rest of the leadership team has been trying to build.

那么为什么这么重要呢？为什么Netflix如此关注这一点？高人才密度会带来什么影响？这对Netflix作为一家公司来说是如此根本的一部分，有些方面也非常反映了Netflix创始人的理念。因此，当他创建Netflix并随着时间的推移发展公司时，他相信可以采用一种不同的方式来构建公司，使其成为一个人们可以茁壮成长和热爱的地方，并且与其他地方有所不同，不仅在人才密度的质量方面，更重要的是在卓越性和成果方面，人们会从中获得很多满足感。因此，高人才密度在Netflix深深地根植于其最初的日子，并且人才密度的一大部分绝对是招聘。那些加入团队的人是谁？但其中很多是我们无法摆脱的公司文化的其他方面，包括坦诚、学习、追求卓越和担当自由责任，如果你不从高人才密度开始。因此，在某种程度上，这不是终点，而是达到目的的手段，是雷德和其余领导团队一直在努力构建的东西。

And so in order to do that you have to really hold yourself to a lot of stuff that doesn't feel like natural human behavior. And what I mean by that is giving the feedback this gets into the second bucket. So giving feedback being candid around your expectations when they're not being met, what could be better and helping people improve and be able to receive that type of feedback yourself in order to keep talent density high because no one comes to Netflix as a perfect human being and stays a perfect human being the whole time. We all have ways that we could grow and improve. And so in order to keep that bar high you have to be willing to have those types of very uncomfortable conversations. It's an uncomfortable amount of candor and feedback in order to keep that bar high.

为了实现这一点，你必须真正自律，做很多看起来不像是自然人类行为的事情。我的意思是，这涉及到第二个方面，即给予反馈。给予反馈意味着坦率地表达你的期望，当期望没有达到时，提出改进的建议，帮助他人进步，并且能够接受这种反馈从而保持人才密度高，因为没有人来到Netflix时是完美的，也不会一直保持完美。我们都有改进和成长的空间。因此，为了保持这个标准，你必须愿意进行这种非常尴尬的对话。这需要一种令人不舒服的坦率和反馈，以保持这个标准。

And then the other piece of it is another thing that doesn't come naturally to humans which is making a call in a pretty timely fashion if someone's not able to meet the bar. And to say either I don't think the role you're sitting in is the right role or I don't think that Netflix is the right place for you. And to make that something that is part of best practice to get to a point where you could make that decision and that's where we refer to the keepers test which is really just a mental framing to make sure we hold ourselves accountable for this where if I'm asking myself the question if this person on my team came to me and said I'm leaving today, I have a different opportunity and I would like to take it. Would I do everything I could to keep them at Netflix? If not, then I should be having that tough conversation about should you really be here? Are you in the right role? If I might be a little bit relieved if you said you were leaving. The reason the keeper test and that question is useful is because no one wants to think that way.

然后，另一部分是一个对人类来说并不自然的事情，那就是在时间上要做出及时的决定，如果有人不能达到要求。要么说，我不认为你所处的角色是适当的角色，要么说，我不认为Netflix是适合你的地方。要把这作为最佳实践的一部分，达到能够做出这样的决定的程度，这就是我们所谓的“保留者测试”，实际上只是一种心理框架，确保我们对此负责，即如果我问自己一个问题，如果我的团队中的某个人来找我说，他今天要离开，他有另一份机会并想要接受它，那么我会竭尽所能让他留在Netflix吗？如果不是的话，那么我应该进行那种艰难的谈话，询问你真的应该在这里吗？你是不是在正确的角色里？如果你说你要离开，我可能会有点宽慰，这个“保留者测试”和这个问题是有用的，是因为没有人想那样想。

It's very hard to say to someone. I think this isn't the right fit. I think you should move on from the company. So we have to introduce some of those reflections in order to encourage the behavior. And we also then wanna get to a place where when you're having that tough conversation people aren't surprised by it. That is easier said than done. But you can only get to that conversation around I don't think Netflix and you are the right fit for one another if you've been giving feedback along the way. And so it feels like in its most ideal state it's a mutual observation in practice. It's not always that smooth. Obviously we are humans.

这对我来说很难对某人说出来。我觉得这并不合适。我认为你应该离开这家公司。所以我们必须引入一些反思，以鼓励这种行为。我们也希望能够在进行艰难对话时，不让人感到意外。这说起来容易做起来难。但只有在一路提供反馈的情况下，你才能达到我觉得你和Netflix不合适的那种对话。所以在最理想的情况下，这应该是一种相互观察的实践。但事实并非总是那么顺利。显然，我们只是人类。

But that all feeds on itself in order to make sure that we're really holding ourselves to what we say our behavioral norms as part of the culture. How's that operationalized? Is that just like a mental model that you should have in mind or is it like every quarter you should go through this exercise as a part of the performance review process? How does that actually operationalize the network? It's definitely a mental model. So when we talk to managers about what does it mean to be a manager in Netflix? It would mean you should be with some frequency asking yourself this about the people on your team. People ask me frequently, am I passing your keeper test? So it becomes part of a regular manager direct report one on one.

但这一切都是相互促进的，以确保我们真正遵守我们所说的行为规范作为文化的一部分。这如何具体操作？这只是一个要牢记的心理模型，还是每个季度都应该通过这种练习作为绩效评估过程的一部分？这实际上是如何使网络运作？这绝对是一个心理模型。因此，当我们与经理讨论Netflix中的经理是什么意思时，这意味着您应该经常询问团队中的人这个问题。人们经常问我，我是否通过了您的保留人才测试？因此，这成为了经理与直接下属之间定期的个人对话中的一部分。

And it is just another way of saying am I meeting your expectations? What's going well? What's not going well? How are you thinking about things? And that can sometimes be a very awkward conversation to have. So in the middle of a lot of like we have to talk about this project or that deliverable or this thing that's happening to take the time to step back and just say, how am I doing? Can feel loaded sometimes. And the keeper test, while it feels like a very heavy concept creates a lightness around being able to have that conversation regularly. So we do operationalize it. A point that you may know, just clarify, we don't have performance reviews.

这只是另一种说法，询问我是否达到了你的期望？哪些方面进展顺利？哪些方面不顺利？你是如何思考这些事情的？有时候这可能是一次非常尴尬的谈话。所以在繁忙的时候，必须谈论这个项目、那个成果，或者正在发生的事情之间，花时间退后一步，问一下自己，我做得怎么样？有时候可能感觉很沉重。而“看门人测试”，虽然听起来是一个很沉重的概念，却给予了在经常进行这种谈话时能够轻松地进行的一种氛围。因此，我们对此做了规范化处理。一个你可能已经知道的点，只是澄清一下，我们没有绩效评估。

Oh wow. So we don't have a practice that a lot of other companies do where we would think about reflecting on like a reading of how things are going. We do have an annual cycle of 360 feedback where you request and receive feedback from a lot of people. But it's not an input to some output. It's just for the value of the feedback and to make sure we're keeping that muscle. And we have an annual compensation cycle where we reflect on how are people doing. And so you think about performance as part of both promotions and as part of compensation.

哇，我们没有很多其他公司都有的反思的做法，例如定期检查事情进展的阅读。我们确实有一个每年进行360度反馈的周期，您可以请求并接收很多人的反馈。但这不是一个输入到输出的过程。只是为了反馈的价值和确保我们保持这种能力。另外，我们有一个每年的薪酬周期，我们会思考员工们的表现如何。因此，你需要考虑绩效作为晋升和薪酬的一部分。

But in that way, it has to be part of the day-to-day and part of the operating rhythm because we don't create a process where that would come to the surface. Interesting. I didn't know that. So the idea there is just ongoing, like the whole, so what many people dream of, no performance reviews, we will give you ongoing, real-time feedback. We don't have to wait six months. I feel like people talk about this, but rarely do this. But that's how you guys operate. In the ideal.

但是，这样一来，它必须成为日常生活的一部分，成为运营节奏的一部分，因为我们没有创造一个让这种情况浮出水面的流程。有趣。我不知道这一点。所以这个想法就是持续进行的，就像整个过程，所以很多人梦想的一点是，没有绩效评估，我们将给你持续的、实时的反馈。我们不用等六个月。我觉得人们谈论这个，但很少实行。但这就是你们的运作方式。在理想情况下。

In the ideal, yeah. It's like you have to keep reminding yourself, this is our ideal because it's really easy to rely on the annual 360 cycle. And all of a sudden I might get, I do get about 300 pieces of feedback. And some of those things are on things that happened six months ago. And I think, oh, I wish you had told me this at the time. That would have been more living the Netflix culture. So we have to push ourselves to do it that way. But yeah, that is, if working well, it's very timely direct feedback. The 360 cycle is sort of the annual check-in. Let me get the full picture. Let me be able to distill some themes. Let me tee it up for a conversation with my manager. And then it does remove the sort of crutch of an every six month performance review or something like that.

在理想情况下，是的。就像你必须不断提醒自己，这是我们的理想，因为很容易依赖每年的360度循环。突然间，我可能会收到，确实收到了大约300条反馈。其中一些是关于六个月前发生的事情。我想，哦，我希望你当时告诉我这个。那样会更符合Netflix文化。所以我们必须推动自己以这种方式做。但是，是的，如果运作得好，这是非常及时的直接反馈。360度循环是一种年度审查。让我得到全面的图片。让我能够提炼一些主题。让我为与我的经理的对话做好准备。然后，它确实消除了每六个月进行绩效评估之类的支持。

When you talked about this example of someone asking you often, am I meeting your keeper test? It makes me feel like someone's just super nervous. They're like, am I passing your keeper test? And it makes me feel like it could create a culture of just a lot of stress and worry and this hunger, games mentality of like, I get a compete and worry and I might die or get fired any day. I'm guessing the solution to that is partly cultural. This is just the way we work. You don't need to stress all the time, but you may be let go if you're not meeting this keeper test.

当你谈到有人经常问你是否符合你内心标准的例子时，我觉得就好像有人特别紧张。他们好像在问我是否通过了你的标准，这让我感觉可能会创造一种充满压力和担忧、竞争和恐惧心态的文化。我觉得其中部分解决办法可能是文化方面的。这就是我们工作的方式。你不需要一直感到紧张，但如果你未能达到这个标准，可能会被解雇。

How do you avoid this just like constant worry that you might be fired any day and that you may not be hitting the bar? In my personal experience, I have felt a lot more at ease by having these conversations than by not having them. So in many roles I've had, I haven't been sure how I was doing or things I could be doing better on. And I didn't quite know how to get that information and that made me feel much more stressed or nervous or at risk than having it be part of the culture to have those conversations.

你如何避免这种持续的担忧，担心自己随时可能被解雇，担心自己的表现没有达到要求？根据我的个人经历，通过进行这些对话，我感到更加放心。在我曾经担任的许多职位中，我并不确定自己的表现如何或者有哪些方面可以做得更好。我也不太清楚怎样获取这些信息，这让我感到更加紧张、担忧或者处于风险之中，而如果能够将这些对话纳入文化中，我可能会感到轻松许多。

So the thing that I think can be nerve wracking and I feel it myself is the high bar for excellence at Netflix. And you're surrounded by, if we're doing this well, you're surrounded by amazing people. And that can feed a sense of, am I doing well enough compared to how everyone else is doing? And I know the bar's high. For the most part that can drive people in a good way, but in some ways it makes people nervous. And that's where I think it's helpful to know we expect to have these conversations. So you can just kind of let your shoulders relaxed a little bit. Yes, the expectations are high, but my manager says I'm doing a great job or my manager says I'm not doing a great job, but they gave me concrete things that I could do better. And so I think knowing is better than not. And so in that sense, it's the culture combined with the conversations around performance. I hope take a little bit of that stress out of it, but I've certainly heard it a lot that without that conversation people can be nervous.

所以我认为在Netflix最让人紧张的是卓越的高标准。如果我们表现得很好，你会周围都是优秀的人。这可能会让你感觉，我做得是否够好，与其他人相比？我知道这个标准很高。大多数情况下，这可以积极地激励人们努力向前，但在某些方面也会让人感到紧张。我认为这时候知道我们期望有这些对话是很有帮助的。这样你就可以稍微放松一下肩膀。是的，期望很高，但我的经理说我做得很好，或者我的经理说我做得不够好，但他们给了我一些具体可以改进的方向。所以我认为知道情况比不知道好。因此，在这个意义上，这种文化结合了绩效对话可以减少一些压力。我听说如果没有这些对话，人们可能会感到紧张。

That's such a good point and such a good example that I feel like every company wants to have a high bar and have only high performers and keep the bar really high for every person they hire. I'm curious, I know this could be its own podcast and book, but just in terms of hiring people at that are amazing and keeping this bar of excellence. Is there anything you can point out that might be helpful to other companies hiring to help identify amazing people and make sure that bar stays high? One thing I know is you guys pay top market for salary. I think that's one unique thing about Netflix is we just pay people. So maybe that's an answer part of this answer, but just what advice do you have for people to keep a really high bar in their talent?

这是一个非常有见地、很好的例子，让我感觉每家公司都希望设立一个高标准，只招聘高绩效的员工，并确保对每位招聘的人员都保持高标准。我很好奇，我知道这可能成为一个单独的播客和书籍，但就招聘出色人才和保持卓越标准而言，您是否能指出一些对其他公司有帮助的方法，以帮助识别出色人才并确保标准保持高水平？我知道你们为工资付出最高市场水平。我认为这是Netflix的独特之处之一，我们只是付钱。也许这是这个问题的一部分答案，但您对于如何帮助其他公司保持高水平人才有什么建议？

Yeah, I mean, I'm the compensation point. We pay what we call personal top of market, meaning we wanna be highly competitive in the pay, but we don't want pay to be like the golden handcuffs. Netflix sets market rather than paying people a strongly competitive compensation. So I think that that's important for attracting and retaining talent and has been a big part of the culture, but almost more importantly, we hope we don't have to rely on that, to want people to wanna be at Netflix or for us to be able to assess whether people are gonna thrive at Netflix. And the way that I've thought about hiring with that context is we know we're gonna offer you very highly competitive compensation, but are you gonna come to Netflix and help us identify the right problems to solve or new ways to solve existing problems? And that's a different way of hiring than you might think about, especially at scale, where you're saying, does this person have this skill, this skill, this skill, check? They're gonna fit in this box and they're gonna deliver this work that I need them to do. I'm being intentionally simplistic. I recognize a lot of people don't hire actually that way, but at Netflix, we try really hard to say we're looking for the new perspective or the person who's actually gonna make us stronger as a team. So thinking about additive skills, additive perspectives, people who are gonna push our thinking on something. And that tends to help us with thinking about talent density because you're constantly introducing people to the team who up level. So then the questions you have to ask in an interview might be different because yes, we're trying to assess, do you have the baseline skills to be successful here, but we're also looking for the things that make people exceptional or even stronger than the team we've got. And then you think about making the magical teams comprised of all those amazing minds and what can you get out of that? And that feels like more that the talent density in practice. Got it. So the advice there essentially is don't look for someone just simply great. Look for someone that raises the bar for the whole team, brings in a whole new perspective. Yes, it's great. Yeah.

是的，我的意思是，我是补偿点。我们支付我们称之为市场个人顶尖的薪酬，意思是我们要在薪酬上高度竞争，但我们不希望薪酬像金色手铐一样。Netflix是按市场标准设定薪酬，而不是向员工支付强有力的竞争薪酬。因此，我认为这对于吸引和留住人才至关重要，也是文化的重要组成部分，但更重要的是，我们希望不必依赖这一点，希望员工想要加入Netflix，或者我们能够评估员工是否能在Netflix茁壮成长。在这种情况下，我考虑招聘的方式是，我们知道我们将给你提供非常有竞争力的薪酬，但你会来Netflix帮助我们找到正确的问题或新的解决问题的方法吗？这种招聘方式与你可能会考虑的方式不同，尤其是在规模上，你是在说，这个人有这个技能、这个技能、这个技能，对吗？他们会适应这个框框，并且会按照我需要他们做的工作完成任务。我有意简化了。我知道很多人其实并不是这样招聘的，但在Netflix，我们努力说我们正在寻找新的观点或那些真正会让我们团队更强大的人。因此考虑到增值技能、增值观点、那些会推动我们在某个方面思考的人，这有助于我们思考人才密度，因为你不断地将那些能够提升团队水平的人引入团队。所以你在面试中需要问的问题可能会有所不同，因为是的，我们试图评估，你是否具备在这里成功所需的基本技能，但我们也在寻找使人出色或甚至比我们团队更强大的东西。然后你考虑组成由所有这些优秀头脑组成的神奇团队，你可以从中得到什么？这更像是实践中的人才密度。明白了。所以本质上的建议是，不要只寻找一个简单杰出的人，而是要找一个能提高整个团队的标准，带来全新视角的人。是的，这很棒。

I think what's great about this idea of just maintaining excellence consistently is that the best people wanna work with the best people. And as soon as there's one person that sucks and the company allows for that, it just brings everyone down because they know, hey, we can be okay. We'll stick around. We're gonna do anything about it. And when you make it clear, we only want the best and only hire the best and we'll keep the best. It keeps the best there, right? Imagine that's part of this strategy. It's definitely the goal. And I think understanding that having gaps in the team and people's skill sets or their behavior can be really toxic for other people on the team. So it's a cost.

我认为这个保持卓越持续的想法的好处在于，最优秀的人才想要和最优秀的人一起工作。一旦有一个人表现糟糕，而公司却允许这种情况发生，就会带垮整个团队，因为大家会觉得，“嘿，我们也可以随随便便。我们不需要做什么改变。” 而当你明确表示，我们只想要最好的人才，只招募最优秀的员工，并且会留住他们。这样就会保持优秀的员工在这里，对吧？想象一下这是这个策略的一部分。这绝对是目标。我认为要理解的是，团队中存在人员技能或行为方面的空缺可能对团队中的其他人造成非常有害的影响。这是一种成本。

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So asked on Twitter what questions to ask you. And there's a great question that came in from non-U. He's the head of product for linear. And he asks, what practices does Netflix do that other companies should not attempt to do because their talent level is so much higher than other companies? That is freedom and responsibility in the nutshell. Let me explain that. It's a good question. And it's kind of related to what I was saying earlier, that talent density is a prerequisite for a lot of the other ways we operate. So if we want to create a work environment where we are not prescriptive about how people solve problems or the scope of problems that they could tackle, assuming they're highly impactful for the business, and we don't have a lot of process around that work. So think about being able to make large innovations to our engineering systems or introducing new ways to think about metrics and experimentation. We get a lot of those things because we give people the freedom and the space to explore and question things and experiment in a way with solutions. And I think that that would be very hard, if not dangerous, if we didn't have a high talent density. It's really not a top down, do A, then B, then C. Even in how we go through some of our planning processes or thinking about how we think about priorities, there is a lot of room for contribution across all levels of the team. And that requires talent density. And then there's things like you have to have amazing people if you're not going to have really strict guardrails that would influence the consumer experience or business stakeholders experience. And we do give people a lot of responsibility on those things. So I think the lack of process and prescriptiveness is all hinging on. We've got amazing people who are smart, but even better, have strong judgment. This is kind of what you always hear from people giving founders advice is just hire amazing people, get out of their way and let them do their job, which is often not a successful experience.

所以在Twitter上向你提问了什么问题。有一个很棒的问题来自一位非美国人，他是线性产品的负责人。他问，Netflix做了什么实践，其他公司不应尝试做的，因为他们的人才水平远远高于其他公司？那就是自由和责任的精髓。让我解释一下。这是一个很好的问题。而且与我之前所说的有点关联，人才密度是我们许多运作方式的前提条件。如果我们想要创造一个工作环境，我们不会规定人们如何解决问题或者他们可以解决的问题范围，假设这对业务非常有影响，并且在这项工作中我们没有太多流程。所以想象一下，我们能够对我们的工程系统进行重大创新，或者引入新的指标和实验方法。我们获得了很多这些东西，因为我们给予人们自由和空间去探讨、质疑和实验解决方案。我认为如果没有高人才密度，这将非常困难，甚至危险。这真的不是自上而下、做A、然后B、再然后C。即使在我们进行一些规划流程或思考如何优先考虑事务时，都有很多空间供整个团队的各个层面做出贡献。这需要人才密度。然后还有一些事情，如果不设定非常严格的限制条件，会影响消费者体验或业务利益相关者的体验，你必须拥有出色的人才。我们确实给予人们在这些方面很多责任。所以我认为没有流程和规定的结果都依赖于。我们拥有聪明而出色的人才，更重要的是，他们具有强大的判断力。这基本上是你总是听到给创始人建议的人所说的，只要雇佣了优秀的人才，让他们自行其事，不要干涉他们的工作，而这往往不是成功的经历。

What are examples that come, either things that came out of this freedom, I don't know, products or features or ideas that came out of this, or policies or processes you don't have that everyone else might have. So I know there's no vacation time, there's like unlimited vacation time, that I assume, is that still a thing? Unlimited vacation time. Okay, cool. Yeah. All right, great. And then no performance reviews, we talked about that. So I guess in either direction, like as an example of something that came out of this freedom or some process that surprised people that you don't have or a framework or system. We've been able to deliver, speak to my own team around innovations in our content delivery network or innovations in encoding or innovations in discovery and personalization.

有什么例子是因为这种自由而产生的呢？我不知道，可能是产品、功能、创意，亦或是政策或流程，你们没有但别人可能有的。我知道这里没有假期时间限制，可以无限制休假，我猜，这个还在继续吧？无限假期时间。好的，很酷。嗯。好的。然后没有绩效评估，我们已经谈过了。所以无论是哪方面的例子，都可以作为这种自由带来的结果，或者一些让人惊讶的流程，你们没有但别人有的，又或是一个框架或系统。我们已经能够在内容交付网络、编码、发现和个性化等方面为我的团队带来创新。

We're not driven by some leader saying, I think this is a priority. They were driven in many cases by individual contributors who had great ideas for innovation. So a lot of the stuff that Netflix has succeeded in came from creating space for people on the team. So there's probably thousands of examples of product features and things like that that came out of creating this space. And right now, the trick is finding the sweet spot so that we can operate efficiently at this type of scale without snuffing out some of that, what was kind of the core beauty of the culture?

我们不是被某位领导说这是当务之急而驱使。在许多情况下，我们是被有创新想法的个人贡献者驱使的。因此，Netflix取得成功的很多方面都来自为团队中的人们创造空间。因此，可能有成千上万的产品特性和其他东西都是通过创造这种空间而产生的。目前，关键是找到一个平衡点，以便我们可以在这种规模下高效运作，同时又不扼杀文化的核心美丽之处。

Maybe a last question around just the culture. We talked about candor a bit. I'm just curious if there's an example that comes to mind of an example of candor that you recently saw or had to be the candid person that might be interesting to share, where it's like, oh, wow, that's what you mean when you say a culture of candor. There's a couple things that come to mind. I am generally a transparent leader, meaning I share information freely and openly.

也许最后一个关于文化的问题。我们之前谈到了坦诚。我只是好奇，您有没有最近看到或自己必须坦诚的例子，可能很有趣，可以分享一下。就像是，哇，这就是您所说的坦诚文化。我脑海中浮现出一些事情。我通常是一个透明的领导者，意味着我会自由、公开地分享信息。

It's part of the culture to context, not control, which means part of my job is to make sure that people have the context they need to do their jobs well. And in practice, that means I take notes in leadership meetings and I share those notes with the whole organization. And that is sometimes it includes candor around reflections on things that aren't going well or problems we need to solve. Sometimes it's just letting people know, here's what leadership's talking about so that they have a sense of what's top of mind, but it's a version of transparency that I feel strongly about, doesn't exist a lot of other places.

文化的一部分是内容，而不是控制，这意味着我的工作的一部分是确保人们获得他们做好工作所需的背景信息。实践中，这意味着我在领导会议上做笔记，并与整个组织分享这些笔记。有时这包括对事情的反思，例如不顺利的事情或我们需要解决的问题。有时只是让人们知道，领导在谈论什么，以便他们了解什么是重点，但我强烈感觉到这种透明度的版本，在很多其他地方并不存在。

And I think it's a version of candor too in being able to share, I can't always share every detail of everything that we're talking about, but I do try to share things that probably push the boundary a little bit in the team feeling like they understand what's happening across the company and what I'm thinking about. And then there's a second example that comes to mind, which is until two years ago, individual contributors didn't have levels at Netflix. So all engineers were just senior engineers. All the scientists were senior data scientists and we did not have a leveling system. We introduced IC levels two years ago almost exactly and it was a big, big, big shift because it was seen as something that was sort of sacred of it. A lot of people came to Netflix because we didn't have it, we didn't have process around promotions. We didn't, this is probably part of why we never had performance reviews because promotions really weren't at play.

我认为这也是坦率的一种表现，能够分享，我并不能总是分享我们谈论的每一个细节，但我努力分享一些可能稍微突破界限的东西，让团队感觉他们理解公司内部发生的事情以及我在想什么。还有一个例子，直到两年前，在Netflix，个人贡献者没有不同级别。所以所有工程师都只是资深工程师。所有科学家都是资深数据科学家，我们没有级别制度。几乎正好两年前，我们引入了IC级别，这是一个很大的转变，因为这被看作是某种神圣的东西。很多人来Netflix是因为我们没有这样的制度，我们没有晋升的流程。这可能是我们从来没有绩效评估的原因之一，因为晋升并不是发生在这里。

And it gave people a sense of freedom of not having to worry about that type of structure. But when you get to a scale of an organization, we needed some type of scaffolding to say, we wanna talk about how we compose teams. Like when do we need the person who has 30 years of experience, when do we wanna have a new grad? Because that's what the work requires. We didn't have a language for it. So I introduced levels a couple of years ago in it. We had quite a change roller coaster is the only way I can describe how it went. It's a good phrase. And I, yeah, it was sort of like being in like the tumble dry machine for a few months. And so really talking through it with the team. That's just context and backdrop for an example of candor recently, which is we had kind of a post-mortem or a retro on how has it gone with IC levels. So it's kind of like wells, not wells. And I would normally think in a lot of cultures, it would be like, well, we got past that change. We're living that change. Like don't reflect on it because that kind of opened some of that early debate. And I felt differently about it.

这让人们感到自由，不必担心那种结构。但是当你到达一个组织的规模时，我们需要一些支架来说，我们想讨论如何组建团队。比如，何时需要有30年经验的人，何时需要新毕业生？因为这是工作要求的。我们没有对此有一个共同的语言。所以我几年前引入了层级制度。我们经历了相当大的变化过山车是我唯一能描述它的方式。这是一个好短语。是的，就好像在烘干机里翻滚了几个月。所以真的与团队讨论了这个问题。这只是最近发生的坦诚的一个例子的背景和上下文，我们进行了IC层级的事后总结或回顾。所以有点像“有井没有井”。我想在许多文化中，人们通常会认为“我们已经走过了那个变化。我们正在适应那个变化。不要回头看它，因为那会引发早期的争论。而我对此有不同的看法。

I think it's a good example of being candid about this was a big change for us. It hasn't all gone perfectly. There's a lot that we can do better in how we implement levels at Netflix. And I would rather share that information than pretend it's all gone swimmingly and we achieved every objective. So I think that I try to build examples like that because I do think that level of candor and reflection helps build a sense of community and trust across the team.

我认为这是一个很好的例子，坦率地说明这对我们来说是一个巨大的改变。并不是所有事情都进行得完美无缺。在Netflix推行职级方面，我们有很多可以做得更好的地方。我宁愿分享这些信息，而不是假装一切都进行得顺利，我们完成了每一个目标。所以我认为我会努力建立这样的例子，因为我认为这种坦率和反思的程度有助于在团队之间建立共同体和信任感。

It's an awesome example, kind of along the lines of that, but also this category of freedom and responsibility. Something Netflix innovated long ago, and I'm curious if this is still a thing, is this idea of chaos monkeys, which essentially are a program that runs on your infrastructure that just kills random processes and things and just to see what breaks and make sure things are stable when things actually start falling apart. Is chaos monkeys, was that what it's called? And then is that still a thing? Is there still some chaos monkeys running around the servers?

这是一个很棒的例子，有点类似于但也涵盖了自由和责任的范畴。Netflix很早就引入了一种创新，我很好奇这是否依然存在，就是混沌猴的概念，基本上是一个在你的基础设施上运行的程序，会随机终止进程和其他东西，以便查看可能出现的问题，并确保在发生实际故障时系统依然稳定。混沌猴，就是这样吗？那现在还有这个东西吗？服务器上还在运行一些混沌猴吗？

Not unbridled chaos monkeys. No, okay. Pursuant chaos monkeys. But no, we carry too much responsibility, speaking of freedom and responsibility for the member experience to inject pain. Though we do do a lot of experiments to test resilience, and that does probably mean injecting things that we're not quite sure whether A is better than B. And so that happens across engineering systems really at scale, but it's not for pure chaos. It's for intentional learning, and so we can avoid making bigger mistakes.

不是放任混乱的猴子。不，好吧。是有目的的混乱猴子。但不，我们承担着太多责任，谈到会员体验的自由和责任，就不会故意给他们带来痛苦。尽管我们进行了许多试验来测试弹性，这可能意味着注入一些我们不确定A是否比B更好的东西。这在整个工程系统中都在发生，并且是有意识地学习，以避免犯更大的错误。

And then as we go into new efforts like cloud games, we have a beta that's out now, live would be another example. We do try to come up with intentionally low profile examples where we can test the bounds of our systems in a way that's unlikely to damage the member experience. But that's less randomness more by design. And so we're doing that in a few places that feels mostly like good engineering practice so we can understand when it's really show time, and we're gonna really test our systems. Will they be able to perform like we want them to? All right, PKS monkey. Yeah.

随着我们不断尝试新的努力，比如云游戏，我们现在有一个测试版，实时会是另一个例子。我们尽量提出一些低调的示例，以便能够测试我们系统的边界，同时又不会影响会员体验。这并非偶然，更多是经过精心设计。因此，我们在一些地方采取这样的做法，主要是为了好的工程实践，这样我们才能在真正的展示时，以及真正测试我们的系统时理解，它们是否能够像我们希望的那样运行。好的，PKS 猴子。是的。

So kind of along these lines of data, something that, so data itself has always been at the heart of Netflix. And my understanding is the way the data team and the insights team is structured has been one of the reasons Netflix has been so successful. And that's the team you led before you moved into the sneerole. Can you just talk about how these teams are structured and why this structure is so effective?

所以基本上，关于数据方面，数据一直是Netflix的核心。我的理解是数据团队和洞察团队的组织结构是Netflix成功的原因之一。那就是你在进入新角色之前领导的团队。你能谈谈这些团队的结构以及为什么这种结构如此有效吗？

Yeah, I certainly like to think of it as being special. It's unusual. I can explain why. So at the scale of company that Netflix now is very often data oriented teams are embedded in other parts of the business. So it could either be there embedded in a business line like ads or games, or they are organized more functionally separating data engineers from data scientists, from analytics engineers, from consumer researchers. And we've resisted that and kept a centralized team that is both functionally diverse. So across all those types of functions that I just described and works on nearly every area of the business from within the team.

是的，我肯定认为这是特别的。这很不同寻常。我可以解释原因。在Netflix这样规模的公司，数据导向团队往往会嵌入到业务的其他部分中。它们可以嵌入到某个业务线中，比如广告或游戏，或者按功能更分离，将数据工程师、数据科学家、分析工程师和消费者研究员分开。但我们抵制了这种模式，保持了一个功能多样化的中央团队。这个团队涵盖了我刚才描述的所有职能类型，并且几乎涉及到业务的每一个领域。

And I sort of understand why a lot of companies move away from this because it really does require basically extraordinary partnership that we would have people working on data problems that don't report into the teams that are relying on them. But the benefit we get is we get to think about our functional expertise. So are we really world's best data engineers, world's best data scientists? And how do we continue to be ever better from a functional and technical perspective? It gives people better career paths because there's more mobility across the teams. It feels like a team that has a functional expertise with a lot of different problems to solve. And so I think it enables more cross pollination of ideas in a way.

我有点理解为什么很多公司都在远离这种方式，因为这确实需要非同寻常的合作伙伴关系，我们会让处理数据问题的人与依赖于他们的团队不是同一团队。但我们得到的好处是我们可以专注于我们的功能专长。所以我们是不是真的是世界上最好的数据工程师、世界上最好的数据科学家？我们如何从功能和技术的角度持续变得更强？这给人们提供了更好的职业发展路径，因为团队之间的流动性增加了。这样感觉就像一个具有各种问题解决功能专长的团队。因此，我认为这种方式在一定程度上促进了思想的交叉汇合。

And it also allows us to be really objective. That is probably the most important thing that our job is not to tell the story that someone wants to hear with the data or to solve the problem that someone thinks is most important. It's for us to have our own perspective about things. And I think that that up levels the whole organization because it means that we're able to be truth tellers or to be curious in a way that might not fit if we had a different organizational structure. We have to balance that would be a good partner to live around the things we agreed were priorities, be flexible without we're spending our time. But it gives us agency and responsibility beyond that. And I feel like the team takes that very seriously.

这也使我们能够保持非常客观。这可能是我们工作中最重要的一点，那就是我们的工作不是根据数据来讲述某人想听到的故事，也不是解决某人认为最重要的问题。我们需要对事物有自己独特的观点。我认为这提升了整个组织的水平，因为这意味着我们能够说出真相，或者用一种可能不适用于不同组织结构的方式保持好奇心。我们必须在这些优先事项周围找到平衡，成为好的伙伴，灵活适应我们花费时间的方式。但这也让我们有了更多的主观和责任。我觉得团队非常认真对待这个。

So I've seen examples of that in how we bring data to a lot of spaces, including how we partner with engineering on data related topics or how we partner with content, then I'm not sure we would have gotten to if not for having that kernel that's sort of a center of excellence around it. And it's data and insights. That was the team that you ran. Insights is that describing user researchers. What does that function actually?

所以我看到了一些例子，我们在将数据引入许多领域方面，包括我们如何与工程部门在数据相关主题上合作，或者我们如何与内容合作，如果没有这种围绕它建立的卓越中心，我不确定我们是否会达到现在的程度。那就是数据和见解。这就是你负责的团队。见解是描述用户研究人员的。那实际上这项工作是什么功能呢？

So part of data and insights is a consumer insights team that includes a lot of different flavors of research really. So in some ways, consumers even in misnomer because there's parts of the team that do internal research, for example, on tools and products for our studio productions. So that's more of a user research oriented versus consumer. And then the parts of that team that are consumer oriented do things all the way from content screenings to make titles the best version of themselves before they're on the service to more traditional UX research to think about how can we deliver the best title discovery experience or how can we think about things that improve accessibility? And then that team has a global remit. So there's also teams that are more local or regional expertise in understanding consumer needs and entertainment.

数据和洞察力的一部分是一个包含许多不同研究领域的消费者洞察团队。因此，在某种程度上，消费者甚至是一个误称，因为团队中有一部分进行内部研究，例如关于我们工作室制作的工具和产品。这更多是用户研究导向而不是消费者研究。然后团队中那些与消费者有关的部分会做从内容筛选到使标题在上线之前成为最佳版本的各种工作，再到更传统的UX研究，思考如何提供最佳的标题发现体验，或者思考如何改善可访问性。这支团队拥有全球职责，同时也有更具地方或区域专长的团队来理解消费者在娱乐领域的需求。

So consumer insights and a team formerly known as still kind of known as as a shorthand data science and engineering combined together to create data and insights probably about two years ago. That's another piece that's unusual becomes truly a full stack data and research expertise. And so we could tackle a problem like, what's the right way to think about recommendations and how best to surface them in a way that combines attitudinal research, qualitative and quantitative with behavioral research on more of the data science, data engineering, and analytics side.

消费者洞察和一支以前被称为但仍然有点被称为数据科学和工程团队合并在一起，大约两年前创造了数据和洞察。这是另一个不同寻常的部分，成为了真正的全栈数据和研究专业知识。因此，我们可以解决一个问题，比如，如何正确地思考推荐和如何最好地呈现它们，将态度研究、定性和定量研究与行为研究结合起来，在数据科学、数据工程和分析的一侧。

It's super cool because I think it's really rare that what people think of user research is within the data org. And I think that might be a solution to some of the backlash a lot of user research teams get where they're like, I don't know what are you guys doing all this anecdotal evidence. If it's under the same org, I feel like that leads to a lot more credibility and avoid this like, data's telling me this thing. This user research team is telling me this thing. What should we do?

这个想法很棒，因为我觉得人们对用户研究的看法很少是在数据组织中。我认为这可能是许多用户研究团队遭受批评的问题的一种解决方案，他们会说：“我不明白你们在做这些个别证据。”如果它们在同一个组织下，我觉得这将更加可信，并且避免了像“数据告诉我这个，用户研究团队告诉我那个，我们该怎么办？”这样的情况。

Yeah, I mean, consumer insights is one of the newer teams for me. It wasn't in my background to lead a team like that and not in my individual training. But they are critical for making sure we keep a consumer orientation, a member orientation on things. And I have loved to watch the teams collaborate on problems because we talk about it as a superpower internally and combining those skillsets. So I think the consumer insights team at Netflix has had a lot of credibility in a certain area of expertise. And we took it to the next level by combining it with other of the functional expertise.

是的，我是说，对我来说，消费者洞察团队是比较新的团队之一。在我的背景和个人培训中，并没有领导过这样的团队。但是他们对确保我们保持消费者导向、会员导向非常重要。我喜欢看团队在解决问题时的协作，因为我们在内部将其称为超能力，结合这些技能。所以我认为Netflix的消费者洞察团队在某个专业领域具有很高的可信度。通过结合其他的功能专业知识，我们将其提升到了下一个级别。

So it's not required in every problem space. So we try not to overdo it and say we need to be collaborating everywhere because that just feels like a, the wrong expectation, but we try to make the most of it in spaces where we really benefit. So yeah, it's worked out really well. Awesome. Okay, I wanna ask two more questions before we get to our very exciting lighting round and they're both skills that little birdies have told me you're very good at. One is that you are very intentional and thoughtful about staying close to individual teams and individuals within the company, even though you're higher and higher in the org. I'm curious how you do that. How you actually practice this skill of staying really close to teams kind of at the bottom of the ladder and individuals that are working on things on the ground, basically.

因此，在每个问题空间并不需要这样。所以我们尽量不要过度强调我们需要在每个地方都合作，因为那感觉就像是一个错误的期望，但我们尽量在我们真正受益的空间中充分利用合作。因此，这一点确实效果非常好。太棒了。好的，再问两个问题，然后我们就进行非常激动人心的灯光一问一答环节，这两个问题都是一些小鸟告诉我你非常擅长的技能。其中一个是你非常有意识和周到地与公司内的团队和个人保持紧密联系，尽管你在组织中的位置越来越高。我很好奇你是如何做到的。你实际上是如何练习这种与处在梯子底部的团队和基层从事工作的个人保持紧密联系的技能。

A lot of it is how I spend my time and fighting to preserve opportunities to connect with people. So examples would be, I still have biweekly office hours. People sign up for slots. And then I get, it can be a little like speed dating for 20 minutes slots, but I get to meet a whole bunch of people and hear about work, hear what's top of mind. And people book them out many months ahead and it's just an opportunity to stay in touch. And then I do ask me anything sessions with teams of different sizes, depending on how intimate we want it to feel. But truly anything is fair game. As a way to get to know me as a person, for me to hear questions, to try to be candid about what I can answer, I can't answer. And so those things have helped me maintain connection.

很多事情都是我如何度过时间并努力保留与人联系的机会。比如，我仍然每两周有一次办公室时间。人们会预约时间段。然后这有点像是为20分钟的时间段进行速配，但我可以见到很多人，听他们谈论工作，了解他们关心的事情。人们会提前好几个月预约，这是一个保持联系的机会。接着我会和不同规模的团队进行问答会议，取决于我们想要多亲密的氛围。但是真的什么问题都可以问。这是了解我作为一个人的方式，让我听到问题，努力坦诚回答可以和不能回答的问题。这些事情帮助我保持联系。

But both of those examples are about making the time for it. So what I have found as my role has changed is that it just wouldn't happen if I didn't make it a priority. And then through those types of sessions, I do think I become or I hope to become more approachable. So people know you can send me a Slack message. You can send me an email. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna respond to you as quickly as I can because I wanna hold myself to that bar. And so that builds a flow of communication between me and the team that I really value. I don't think I would wanna do my job if I didn't have those points of connection. So that helps too. And you also send my email to everyone after every leadership meeting. So they're like, oh yeah, Elizabeth. Yeah, they hear from me. Yeah.

但是这两个例子都是关于为此腾出时间。随着我的角色发生变化，我发现如果我不把这个事情作为优先事项，它就不会发生。通过这些类型的交流，我觉得自己变得更加可亲可近了，或者希望变得更加可亲可近。所以人们知道你可以给我发Slack消息，给我发邮件。就像我之前提到的，我会尽快回复你，因为我想要把自己置于这个标准之上。这样就建立了我与团队之间非常重要的沟通渠道。如果没有这些联系点，我觉得我是不会想做我的工作的。这也有助于增进沟通。每次领导会议后，你也会把我的邮件地址发送给每个人。所以他们会说，哦，是Elizabeth，我们从她那里听到了消息。

Kinda related to this. So we have a mutual friend. That's how we got connected, Ali Rao. She was a data scientist at her being being now she's at Uber. And she had a question that she wanted me to ask. And it's about how good you are at being present. So her question is something she's noticed about. Something I've noticed about her is how 100% present she is no matter who she talks to. Do you have any advice for people to get better at this because it's so hard in the day of email and iPhones and Slack? Her question is like, when does she respond to stuff if not sometimes in meetings? I actually think I'm the most present when I'm having conversations like this one. And I do preserve a lot of time to have one-on-one conversations where I'm genuinely curious about how someone's doing, how I can help them, what they're excited about. That's authentic. And so while my EA would probably cringe at saying, I like to spend time doing a lot of those one-on-ones, it is relatively easier for me to say like the human connection is part of what I enjoy about this.

这个问题有些相关。我们有一个共同的朋友，阿里·拉奥。这就是我们相识的原因。她过去是一名数据科学家，现在在优步工作。她有一个问题想让我问你，就是关于你是如何保持专注的。她注意到，不管和谁交谈，她总是百分之百地专注在对方身上。你有什么建议可以帮助大家变得更加专注吗？在电子邮件、iPhone和Slack等设备充斥的时代，要保持专注确实很困难。她的问题就像是，如果不是在会议中，她什么时候会回复信息呢？事实上，我觉得当我进行类似这次对话这样的交谈时，我是最专注的。我会保留很多时间进行一对一的交流，真心想知道对方最近的情况，如何帮助他们，以及他们对什么感到兴奋。这是真实的。尽管我的助理可能会对我说喜欢花很多时间做这些一对一的交流感到不满，但对我来说很容易说，人与人之间的联系是我享受工作的一部分。

I think that's true for a lot of people in what we get out of work in life. But I try to live that in those meetings. I'm probably not as good when we're talking about meetings of 30 people and I'm multitasking. So I will admit to doing that for sure. But I think the one-on-one conversations I treat as being pretty sacred. And one of the things I've noticed that helps me continue to invest in that and maybe is helpful for other people is some of my greatest friends and connections, including people like Ali, are people I met along the way professionally. So I worked very closely with Ali's husband, Keith Enwood, at multiple places, both analysis group and at Lyft. And that means that it's created opportunities and it's been points of connection. And so you get back what you give basically. There are people in my life who are part of my life because I worked with them or because I crossed paths. And I like to think that if I can make a positive mark on them, it'll come back and be a benefit at some point too. So I think to distill that is that I truly enjoy it. It's what I get out of, especially work. And then it's my community. And that served me really well over time. And so I have given people advice of, this is a small community. Think about what you're investing in other people because that will matter down the line for yourself too and try to live that myself.

我认为很多人在工作和生活中所得到的东西都是真实的。但是在那些会议上，我会尽量遵循这个原则。也许在涉及30人的会议和同时处理多项任务时，我并不那么擅长。我得承认我确实会这样做。但是我认为一对一的谈话是非常神圣的。我注意到，一直投资于这一点可能对其他人也有帮助，这也是让我继续投入的原因之一。我发现，像阿里这样的最好的朋友和联系人，都是我在职业生涯中结识的人。我曾多次与阿里的丈夫基思·恩伍德在一起工作，分别在分析集团和Lyft公司。这意味着创造了机会和联系点。所以，基本上是你付出什么就会得到什么。我生活中的一些人是因为我曾和他们一起工作过或者因为我们曾交集。我想如果我能对他们留下积极的印记，总会有一天会回报给我。所以我认为，我真的很享受这种体验。特别是工作中的收获，还有我的社区。这些经历在很长时间内对我帮助很大。所以我给人们的建议是，这是一个很小的社区。考虑一下你为其他人做了什么投资，因为这对你自己以后也很重要，也要尽力去实践。

That's such good advice. There's kind of two things that come to mind there. One is treat people the way you want to be treated. Someone once said that maybe. And I think you've come back to this a couple of times. This idea of just pay attention to what gives you energy and that you're good at and just almost double down on that. Just like make that more and more of a superpower. Yeah, that last part resonates. It's been a big part of my personal and professional practice to reflect on how I'm feeling what I'm excited about, what I'm enjoying. And I do think it helps me be more grounded, which maybe helps me be more present or helps me be a better manager or leader. That might be part of the secret sauce too, but it's part of my practice.

这是非常好的建议。这让我想到了两件事情。一是用你想要被对待的方式对待别人。有人曾经说过这句话。我觉得你已经多次提到过这个想法。这个想法就是要注意那些让你感到有活力并且擅长的事情，然后加倍投入其中。让这些事情成为你更强大的特长。对，最后这部分很有共鸣。对我个人和职业实践来说，反思自己的感受、激情和喜爱一直都很重要。我觉得这有助于让我更踏实，也许能让我更专注或者让我成为一个更好的经理或领导。这也许也是成功的秘诀之一，但这是我的实践的一部分。

I can't help but ask is this like an actual practice? Do you do this on a regular basis or is this just something you think about like I should reflect back? I wish I was so advanced to say I meditate and I create all this structure. It's more that I, I think I mentioned maybe I'm an introvert. So I do spend some time alone. That's how I recharge. And early mornings, especially people who know me sometimes are horrified at the time of day I send emails. But early mornings are a quiet time for me where I do try to have a daily check-in of just how are things going? Why am I feeling anxious? Why am I feeling excited? And it's kind of a muscle you build. So while I don't, I don't write in a journal, I don't have a meditation practice. I do have a time of day when I try to keep it protected from other things so that I can think for a second. What I think about there is Jeff Bezos has this approach in the morning, he just calls it, he putters around. He has no meetings until I think 10 or something. He just wants to putter around, read the newspapers, see what's going on in email, which I'm trying to do. I really like that. That feels really good. I'm just gonna putter around. I have no responsibilities in the morning. I like, I've never heard that. And I'm gonna die. I'm not going to die. I'm just buttering. I'm just buttering. I'm buttering.

我忍不住要问，这是一个实际的做法吗？你是不是经常这样做，还是只是觉得应该反思一下？我希望我可以如此先进地说我在冥想，我创造了所有这些结构。更多的是，我想我可能是一个内向者。所以我确实会花一些时间独处。这是我重新充电的方式。尤其是早晨，有些了解我的人有时会对我发邮件的时间感到恐惧。但对我来说，清晨是一个安静的时刻，我会努力每天检查一下事情的进展。我为什么感到焦虑？为什么感到兴奋？这种情况有点像你锻炼肌肉一样。所以虽然我不写日记，也不做冥想练习，我确实有个时间段，我尽量保护它不被其他事情打扰，以便我可以冷静思考一下。我在那里思考的是，杰夫·贝索斯早晨有这种方法，他称之为，他闲逛。他直到大约10点才开始开会。他只想闲逛，看看报纸，看看邮件中的情况，我正努力这么做。我真的很喜欢这样。感觉真的很好。我只是闲逛。早晨我没有责任。我喜欢，我从来没有听说过这样的方式。我不会死。我只是闲逛。我只是闲逛。我在闲逛。

Elizabeth, is there anything else you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round? I'm ready for the exciting lightning round. Well, with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round. First question, what are two or three books that you recommended most to other people? It's probably a little recency bias, but I've been recommending what I talk about when I talk about running by Murakami, which is talk about introspection, about the similarities between running and writing as sort of flow states and very meditative things. So I had read some of his fiction books and the autobiographical reflection on these types of either professions or hobbies, I think is very insightful. So that's one. And then one of my longtime favorite books is a fine balance by mystery. And that is just a great story of human complexity and challenge and relationships. So I'm drawn to both books and TV and film that are about humans. Speaking of TV and film, this is maybe a high stakes question for someone that works in Netflix. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show? I'm not gonna name all Netflix. That feels too much like an advertisement. Film, triangle of sadness is phenomenal. If you haven't seen it. And then I'll go Netflix for TV beef. Was I thought hysterical, I'm an Ali Wong fan, but also just a pretty unique storyline. And I think that you just won a bunch of Emmys. It did. Amazing. Good picks. Next question, do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you are interviewing? High talent density. I'm usually looking for the person who would be better in my role than I am in my role. So I often ask people, what would their priorities be? What would they do differently if they had my job? Next question, do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really like? So while I carry the CTO title, I live a pretty analog life. So my most recent product is a fellow pour over coffee maker, which is actually part of my morning ritual, which I'll now call puttering around, where I take great lengths in my coffee making process, because I find it calming. And then it's not a recent find, but I have to shout out that my peloton is probably the favorite product I own. The bike or the treadmill? Bike. I'm a recovering outdoor cyclist. So it's also kind of questionable if I can even admit to this, but that's why I would admit to, I love the peloton despite being ideally an outdoor cyclist. I have questions about your cycling, but before that question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, or share with friends or family that you find useful either in work or in life? My mom said something to me that has stuck with me. I don't know if I live it very well, but the phrase was, something good happens every day. And the reason she said it was because she was encouraging me to be more mindful about enjoying the small things in the day to day, rather than letting myself get caught up in the business.

伊丽莎白，在我们开始激动人心的闪电轮询之前，你还有什么想谈论或留给听众的事吗？我已经准备好迎接激动人心的闪电轮询了。好的，让我们开始我们激动人心的闪电轮询。第一个问题是，你向其他人推荐过的两三本书是什么？也许有点偏好最近阅读的书籍，但我一直推荐村上春树的《当我谈跑步时我谈些什么》，这本书讨论了内省、跑步和写作之间的相似性，以及一种类似于流境状态和冥想的东西。所以我已经阅读了一些他的小说作品，对这些类型的自传式反思，无论是关于职业还是爱好，我都觉得很有洞察力。另一本是我长期喜爱的《微妙的平衡》，作者是米斯特里。这是一个关于人类复杂性、挑战和关系的精彩故事。我被这两本书吸引，以及关于人类的电视和电影。说到电视和电影，对于一个在Netflix工作的人来说，这可能是一个高风险的问题。你有最近喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？我不想全部提到Netflix，那感觉太像广告了。电影《悲伤三角形》是非常出色的。如果你还没有看过的话，你一定要看看。然后在Netflix上，电视剧《牛肉》我觉得很滑稽，我是艾利王的粉丝，但这个剧情也非常独特。我觉得它刚获得了很多艾美奖。真是太棒了。选择很好。下一个问题，你在面试时常常问应聘者的一个最喜欢的面试问题是什么？高天赋密度。我通常在寻找那些比我更适合我的角色的人，所以我经常问人们，如果他们有我的工作，他们会怎么做？他们的优先事项是什么？下一个问题，你最近发现并非常喜欢的一个产品是什么？虽然我有CTO的头衔，但我生活仍然很模拟。我最近发现的产品是Fellow手冲咖啡壶，这实际上成为我的早晨仪式的一部分，我现在称之为闲逛，我在制作咖啡的过程中做出很大的努力，因为我觉得这样很平静。虽然这不是最近发现的，但我不得不大声赞扬我的宝来特（Peloton）可能是我拥有的最喜爱的产品。自行车还是跑步机？自行车。我是一个康复中的户外骑行者。所以甚至很难说我是否能承认这一点，但我会承认，尽管我理想上应该是一个户外骑行者，但我爱上了宝来特。我对你的骑行有些问题，但在问之前，你有一个在工作或生活中经常回想或与朋友或家人分享并觉得有用的座右铭吗？我妈妈对我说过一句话一直让我铭记。我不知道我是否很好地活出了这句话，但她说的是，“每天都会有好事发生。”她说这句话是因为她鼓励我更加用心去享受日常的小事情，而不是让自己陷入繁忙之中。

Beautiful. Final question, you're a big biker and triathlete. I am curious what that sport and time has given you in your career or in life, what benefits have you found from spending so much time and energy running, biking, being an athlete? Certainly mental resilience. So while those sounds like physical strength, I've found, especially endurance, sports are much more mental and how you go through the highs and lows. And sustain and then coming back from challenge. So those sports have had their highs and lows. And from the lows, I've really learned how to kind of recover and bounce back. So those feel like universally applicable skills. If such an interesting mix of athleticism and then Netflix, what a good balance for life. This is gonna give me permission to go watch Netflix reporting or recording this on Friday afternoon. Elizabeth, you're awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

美丽。最后一个问题，您是一位热爱骑行和铁人三项运动的运动员。我很好奇这项运动和时间在您的职业或生活中给您带来了什么，您从花费大量时间和精力跑步、骑行、做运动中获得了哪些好处？当然是心理韧性。虽然听起来像是身体力量，但我发现，特别是耐力运动，更多的是心理上的挑战，以及如何度过高潮和低谷。坚持下来，然后从挑战中重返巅峰。因此，这些运动经历过高潮和低谷。从低谷中，我真正学会了如何恢复和回弹。这些感觉像是普遍适用的技能。如果将运动和Netflix这样有趣的事物结合起来，对生活来说是一个很好的平衡。这会让我有理由去看Netflix，在周五下午录制这个节目。伊丽莎白，你太棒了，非常感谢您的出现。

Two final questions, work in folks finding a line if they wanna reach out and maybe follow up on things and how can listeners be useful to you? You can always find me or I'm LinkedIn. So definitely reach out or ping me. If you have questions or comments. And I think the way the listeners can be useful to me is being maybe curious about how they can show up even better in their lives. Now that we've done this reflection on Netflix culture and how we show up for other people. And I would like to ask listeners to pay that forward to people that they're working with and how they show up for them. Amazing. I love that. If you end up doing this and you're listening, maybe leave a comment on YouTube or in sub stack with something that you'll cover about yourself.

最后两个问题，请告诉大家如何联系你，以及听众们如何对你有所帮助？你可以在LinkedIn上找到我。所以确实可以联系我或者打个招呼。如果有问题或者评论的话。我认为听众对我的帮助可能是对如何在生活中展现更好感兴趣。现在我们已经反思了Netflix文化以及我们如何对待他人。我想要求听众将这种付出传递给他们正在一起工作的人，以及他们如何对待他们。太棒了。我喜欢这个。如果您在聆听时采取了这种行动，请在YouTube或sub stack上留下评论，谈谈您自己的一些想法。

Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Annie. I hope you have a great weekend. Same. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

伊丽莎白，非常感谢你能在这里。谢谢，安妮。希望你周末愉快。同样。再见大家。非常感谢你的聆听。如果你觉得有价值，可以订阅我们的节目，苹果播客、Spotify或你最喜爱的播客应用都可以。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，这真的可以帮助其他听众找到这个节目。你可以在lennyspodcast.com找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。下一集再见。