Dr. Cal Newport: How to Enhance Focus and Improve Productivity
发布时间 2024-03-11 12:00:50 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Cal Newport. Dr. Cal Newport is a professor of computer science at Georgetown University. He did his training at MIT, and he is currently both a professor and the author of many best-selling books focused on productivity, focus, and how to access the specific states of mind to bring out your best in terms of cognitive performance and indeed in terms of performance in all endeavors.
欢迎来到Huberman Lab播客，在这里我们讨论科学以及日常生活中基于科学的工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是Cal Newport博士。Cal Newport博士是乔治敦大学的计算机科学教授。他曾在麻省理工学院接受培训，目前不仅是一名教授，还撰写了多本畅销书，专注于提高生产力、专注力，以及如何进入特定的心理状态以在认知表现和各类事务的表现中达到最佳。
One of his more notable books is entitled Deep Work. Rules for focus success in a distracted world. Deep work is a book that has had tremendous positive influence on my work life and indeed my life in general, because it spells out how exactly to go about doing one's best possible work. For me, that's in the context of science and podcasting, but it includes tools that I and many others have extended to other aspects of their life as well, and it's a book that I highly, highly recommend everybody read.
他的一本备受关注的书名为《深度工作：在一个分心的世界中取得专注成功的规则》。这本书对我的工作生活，甚至是整个生活都有巨大的积极影响，因为它详细说明了如何最大化地进行最佳工作。对我来说，这适用于科学研究和播客制作，但其中的方法和工具也被我和其他人扩展应用到生活的其他方面。这本书我强烈推荐每个人阅读。
Cal also has a new book out now. It's one that I'm currently reading entitled Slow Productivity, the Lost Art of Accomplishment Without Burnout. And as the title suggests, it gets into specific protocols to avoid burnout and to bring about one's highest quality work over the greatest amount of time. Today's discussion starts off with extremely practical steps that any and all of us can use in order to enhance our level of focus, productivity, and creativity. Cal shares much of his specific practices and also offers some alternative practices for those of you that perhaps do not want to disengage with social media or with smart phones or with email to the extent that he does.
Cal 现在也有一本新书出版了，我目前正在阅读，书名为《慢速生产力——无压力成就的失传艺术》。正如书名所示，这本书探讨了避免精力耗竭并在最长时间内实现高质量工作的具体方法。今天的讨论从非常实用的步骤开始，这些步骤是我们所有人都可以用来提高专注力、生产力和创造力的。Cal 分享了他的许多具体实践，也为那些不想像他那样彻底与社交媒体、智能手机或电子邮件保持距离的人提供了一些替代做法。
I found the conversation to be extremely useful in the sense that I indeed amount in social media. I use email. I use my phone and texting quite often. So I'm not somebody who's willing to completely disengage from those tools, but I share in the sentiment that those tools can often be an impediment to doing one's best work. So today's discussion gets into not hard and fast rules for enhancing focus and productivity, but a variety of different tools that you can select from in sort of a buffet to suit your particular needs. We also, of course, discuss the specific research studies around focus and distraction, task switching and context switching, all of which support the specific protocols that Cal offers.
我发现这次谈话非常有用，因为我确实在社交媒体上投入了一些时间。我使用电子邮件，经常用手机和短信。所以，我并不是完全不愿意使用这些工具的人，但我也同意这些工具常常会妨碍我们做出最好的工作。因此，今天的讨论不是给出增强注意力和生产力的硬性规则，而是提供了一系列不同的工具，可以像自助餐一样根据自己的具体需求进行选择。当然，我们还讨论了关于注意力和干扰、任务切换和情境切换的具体研究，这些研究支持了Cal所提供的具体方法。
So whether you're somebody who has issues with attention and focus, whether you're somebody that's just feeling overly distracted by the number of things in your email inbox or the number of texts or what's happening out in the world. By the end of today's episode, I'm confident that you will be armed with the best science supported tools, that is protocols in order to access the states of mind that will enable you to do your best possible work. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
无论你是不是在注意力和专注力方面存在问题，或是被邮件、短信或外界发生的事情搞得心烦意乱。到今天节目结束时，我有信心你将掌握最科学支持的工具，也就是一些协议，帮助你进入最佳状态，以便进行最出色的工作。在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是分开的。然而，这是我希望并努力为大众免费提供有关科学及其相关工具信息的一部分。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are of the absolute highest quality. I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that quality sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. And to get the best possible night sleep, it's absolutely key that you're sleeping surface, that is your mattress, suit your specific needs. Helix understands this and they develop a brief two-minute quiz in which you can match your body type and sleep preferences.
按照这个主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Helix Sleep。Helix Sleep生产的床垫和枕头都是最高品质的。我之前多次在这个播客中提到，优质的睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和工作表现的基础。为了获得最佳睡眠，适合您特定需求的床垫是关键。Helix深知这一点，因此他们设计了一个简短的两分钟问卷，可以根据您的身体类型和睡眠偏好为您匹配合适的床垫。
That is whether or not you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach, whether or not you tend to run hot or cold in the middle of the night. Perhaps you don't know the answers to those questions. That's okay. You answer the questions in that brief two-minute quiz. And they match you to the specific mattress ideal for your sleep needs. In my case, that was the Dusk DUSK mattress. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress well over three years ago. And it has significantly improved my sleep.
无论你是仰睡、侧睡还是趴着睡，无论你在半夜时是否容易觉得热或冷，也许你不知道这些问题的答案，这都没关系。你只需花两分钟做一个简短的测试，它会根据你的睡眠需求为你推荐一款理想的床垫。就我而言，我选到了Dusk DUSK床垫。我在三年多前开始用Dusk床垫，睡眠质量得到了显著改善。
And as a consequence, I feel more focused and alert. I'm better able to do all the things that I need to cognitively physically throughout the day. So if you're interested in upgrading your mattress, simply go to helixleap.com slash huberman. Take that brief two-minute quiz and they'll match you to a customized mattress ideal for you. You'll get up to $350 off any mattress order and two free pillows. Again, go to helixleap.com slash huberman for up to $350 off and two free pillows. Today's episode is also brought to us by Maui Newi Venison. Maui Newi Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available.
因此，我感觉更加专注和警觉。这样一来，我就能更好地完成一天中需要在智力和体力上进行的所有任务。如果你有兴趣升级你的床垫，只需访问helixleap.com/huberman。做一个简短的两分钟测验，他们会为你推荐一个理想的定制床垫。下单可享受最高350美元的折扣并免费获得两个枕头。同样，访问helixleap.com/huberman可享受高达350美元的折扣并获得两个免费枕头。今天的节目还由Maui Newi鹿肉赞助。Maui Newi鹿肉是营养最丰富、味道最美味的红肉。
I've spoken before on this podcast and there's general consensus that most people should strive to consume approximately one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Now, when one strives to do that, it's important to maximize the quality of that protein intake to the calorie ratio. Because you don't want to consume an excess of calories when trying to get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Maui Newi Venison has an extremely high quality protein to calorie ratio. So it makes getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight extremely easy. It's also delicious. Personally, I like the ground venison. I also like the venison steaks. And then for convenience when I'm on the road, I like the jerky. The jerky is a very high protein to calorie ratio. So it has as much as 10 grams of protein per jerky stick and it has something like only like 55 calories. So again, making it very easy to get enough protein without consuming excess calories.
我在这个播客上之前提到过，大多数人普遍认为每磅体重大约需要摄入一克蛋白质。当我们努力做到这一点时，重要的是要最大限度地提升蛋白质摄入的质量，同时控制摄入的卡路里。因为在追求每磅体重一克蛋白质的过程中，你不希望摄入过多的卡路里。Maui Newi 的鹿肉提供的蛋白质与卡路里的比例非常高，因此实现每磅体重一克蛋白质的目标变得非常容易。而且它还非常美味。我个人喜欢吃鹿肉末，也喜欢鹿肉扒。外出时，为了方便，我更喜欢鹿肉干。鹿肉干的蛋白质与卡路里比例也非常高，每根鹿肉干含有多达10克的蛋白质，而只有大约55卡路里。因此，它可以让你在不摄入过多卡路里的情况下轻松获得足够的蛋白质。
If you would like to try Maui Newi Venison, you can go to Maui Newi Venison.com slash Huberman to get 20% off your first order. Again, that's Maui Newi Venison.com slash Huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Juve. Juve makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one theme that I've consistently put forward on this podcast, it's the powerful role that light has on our mental health, physical health, and performance. Juve makes medical grade devices that emit both red and near-infrared light. Red in your infrared light is so-called long wavelength light and it's able to penetrate deeper into tissues than shorter wavelength light, like blue and green lights. Those red and near-infrared long-wave length lights have been shown to be beneficial for everything from skin health to wound healing to eye health and even for mitochondrial health.
如果您想尝试Maui Newi鹿肉，可以访问MauiNewiVenison.com/huberman，享受首单8折优惠。再次提醒，网址是MauiNewiVenison.com/huberman，首单可享8折优惠。
今天的节目还由Juve赞助。Juve生产医用级红光治疗设备。在这个播客中，我一直强调光对我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现有着强大的影响。Juve制造的设备能发出红光和近红外光。这些红光和近红外光是所谓的长波长光，能够比蓝光和绿光这种短波长光更深入地穿透组织。研究表明，这种红光和近红外光对皮肤健康、伤口愈合、眼部健康甚至线粒体健康都有益处。
What sets Juve apart from other red light and near-infrared light devices is that they are clinically proven to emit the specific wavelengths at the specific intensities required to achieve specific biological effects. Personally, I use the Juve handheld light, both at home and when I travel. It's only about the size of a sandwich. It's very convenient to use. I also have a Juve whole body panel and I use that about three or four times a week. If you would like to try Juve, you can go to j0ovv.com slash Huberman. Juve is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman lab listeners with up to $400 off select Juve products. Again, that's juj0ovv.com slash Huberman to get $400 off select Juve products.
与其他红光和近红外光设备不同，Juve的独特之处在于其经临床验证，能够以特定波长和特定强度发出光线，以实现特定的生物学效应。个人而言，我使用Juve的手持光设备，无论是在家中还是旅行时，都非常方便。这个设备大约有一个三明治大小。我还拥有一个Juve全身光疗面板，每周使用三到四次。如果你想尝试Juve，可以访问j0ovv.com/Huberman。Juve为所有Huberman实验室的听众提供独家折扣，部分产品最高可减$400。再次提醒，访问juj0ovv.com/Huberman可以在部分Juve产品上享受$400的优惠。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Cal Newport. Dr. Cal Newport. Welcome. Dr. Huberman, as good to see you. I'm a huge fan. I've been a huge fan ever since I read DeepWork. I can't say that I have adopted all the principles, but that's on me, not you. You provide incredible incentive for Y1, ought to pursue DeepWork and slow productivity in service to high quality, true productivity, etc. Some of the protocols, as we'll call them, are incredibly easy to implement. Others take some discipline. So I'd like to talk about both sets today. But the first question I have is, do you own a smartphone? I do have a smartphone. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I don't use social media.
现在我将开始与Cal Newport博士的对话。Cal Newport博士，欢迎您。Huberman博士，见到您很高兴。我是您的超级粉丝，自从我读了《深度工作》后就一直如此。我不能说我已经完全采用了所有原则，那是我的问题，不是您的。您给出了追求深度工作和慢节奏生产力的巨大动力，以达到高质量、真正的生产力等目标。有些方法，我们可以称之为“协议”，非常容易实施，而有些则需要一些自律。因此今天我想讨论这两类方法。但我第一个问题是，您有智能手机吗？我有智能手机。是的。但是我不用社交媒体。
So it turns out smartphones aren't that interesting if you don't have any social media apps on it. Yeah. What's that like? So there's nothing if you have nothing that is engineered to try to grab your attention. The smartphone actually goes back to 2007 Steve Jobs Keynote addressed smartphone, which is this is a really nice phone. And your music, you can listen to things on it. And the phone interface is really good. And look, there's a Maps app. And you can like, look at Maps on it. It's actually a useful piece of technology that you're happy to have. But you don't use it that much. What about text messaging? Do you text message? And so do you get into conversations by text or is it more of a plan and meet type tool? I try. So I try. I do use text messaging. I mean, this is how my wife gets in touch with me. But I'm notorious somewhat among my friends of my the ability to capture my attention with text message is really hit or miss because I'll go hours without looking at my phone.
所以，如果你的智能手机上没有任何社交媒体应用，你可能会发现它并不是那么有趣。是的，那是什么样的感受呢？其实，如果没有那些专门设计来抓住你注意力的东西，智能手机就会回到2007年史蒂夫·乔布斯在发布会上介绍的那样：它是一个非常不错的手机，可以听音乐，电话界面很好，还有地图应用，你可以在上面查看地图。事实上，它还是一个很有用的科技产品，你会很高兴拥有它，但你并不会经常使用它。
那关于短信呢？你会发短信吗？你是通过短信进行对话，还是更多用于计划和约见呢？我会尝试使用短信，这是我妻子联系我的方式。不过，在朋友中，我出名的是短信对我注意力的吸引力很不稳定，因为我常常几个小时不看手机。
So it's not this default appendage. I think for a lot of people, if you know someone, you can basically assume like, look, if I text them, they're going to get right back to me. My problem is I'll go two, three, four hours without looking at my phone. And then there'll be text messages on there from conversations that people were trying to start. And I typically just have to declare text bankruptcy a few times a day. Like if they really needed me, I guess they would have called. So I do text, but I'm not considered to be very good at it.
所以短信并不是我默认的交流方式。我认为对很多人来说，如果你认识某个人，你可能会假设：如果我给他们发短信，他们会马上回复我。但我的问题是，我可能会两三个小时甚至四个小时不看手机，这时会发现有很多人给我发短信，试图开启对话。我通常每天都要宣布几次"短信破产"。我觉得如果他们真的需要我，应该会打电话给我。所以我确实发短信，但我并不算擅长这种交流方式。
A few other questions about your phone practices. This makes me nervous. Is your phone in a drawer on the desktop while you're working? Is it face down face up? Is the ring or on? Is it off? Oh, you need if I'm writing or what? It's nowhere near me. Yeah. It make it be anywhere. It's not going anywhere near me. So I have in my house two different offices basically. Right? So there's a home office. The printers there, the filing cabinets are there, like the nice big monitors there, you pay taxes, that type of thing.
关于你使用手机的一些问题让我有些紧张。你在工作时，手机是否放在桌面上的抽屉里？是正面朝上还是朝下放？铃声开着还是关着？哦，如果我在写作或者其他事情时，手机绝对不会在我身边。对，我会把它放在远离我的地方。我家里实际上有两个不同的办公室，对吧？有一个是家庭办公室，那里有打印机、文件柜，还有很好的大显示器，比如你在那儿处理税务之类的事情。
Then I have a library. And there's no permanent technology into library, no computer in there, no monitor, no printers, nothing like this. I have this sort of custom built desk I had made by a company from Maine that makes desks for college libraries. That's what they do. So I have this custom fit desk to fit into. It's not that big of a space. That's where I go to write. I'm surrounded by books that I've really carefully curated what's where each shelf, like what type of book it has on it. So I can look different ways for different inspirations. I got a fireplace. So I can just turn on a fire if I need it. I'll bring my laptop in there to write if I'm going to write on a computer. And my phone doesn't come in there. You don't look at a phone in that room. And it just helps me.
然后我有一个图书馆。而这个图书馆里没有任何永久的科技设备，没有电脑、显示器、打印机之类的东西。我有一个专门定制的桌子，是由缅因州的一家公司为大学图书馆制作的桌子。他们就是做这个的。所以我有一张量身定制的桌子，适合摆放在这个不算大的空间里。那是我写作的地方。周围都是我精心挑选的书籍，每个书架上的书都是按类型分类的，这样我可以根据需要寻找不同的灵感。我还有一个壁炉，如果需要，我可以点燃壁炉。我会把笔记本电脑带进去写作，如果我要在电脑上写的话。而手机不被允许进入这个房间。在那个房间里你不会看手机。这对我很有帮助。
It's a ritual, right? If I'm in there, I'm thinking. I'm creating with the sort of same patterns of cogitation that we would have been using for hundreds of years when people have been thinking professionally. If I want to be near a printer and I want to go on to a web browser and pay my taxes or whatever, I have a different place for that. I'm curious about the fireplace.
这是一种仪式，对吧？如果我在那儿，我就是在思考。我以一种几百年来人们专业思考时所用的方式进行创造。如果我想靠近打印机，或者想上网浏览网页、交税之类的事情，我会有一个不同的地方来做这些。我对壁炉充满好奇。
I have this theory based on my understanding of visual neuroscience and the fact that when we're looking at visual scenes that have some degree of predictability to them, we get into a motive anticipation. Our thinking is at least somewhat linear and so forth. When we are looking at, say, ocean waves or in a skyscraper, we're staring down at the street of, say, New York City and the cars are moving and obviously not random fashion, but at least to our visual perception pseudo random. You're not tracking any one thing that the mind goes into this sort of state where our thoughts become nonlinear. They're not anchored to any kind of if then kind of what I call DPO duration path outcome kind of trajectory. There's not a lot of neuroscience on this, but there's a little bit. Same thing happens when you're looking at an aquarium, by the way.
根据我对视觉神经科学的理解，我有一个理论：当我们观察那些有一定可预测性的视觉场景时，我们会进入一种情感上的期待状态。我们的思维至少是有点线性的。当我们看着，例如海浪，或者在摩天大楼里向下看纽约市的街道时，我们所见的车流在我们的视觉感知里是伪随机的，不是完全随意的。在这种情况下，我们的大脑会进入一种非线性的思维状态，不再依附于一种“如果-那么”这种称为“时长-路径-结果”（DPO）的思维轨迹。虽然这种现象没有很多神经科学研究，但还是有一点点的。同样的事情也会在观看水族箱时发生。
So I wonder whether or not staring at the fire, which is something that humans have been doing for many, many, many thousands of years because it has that random aspect to it. Does it tend to spark creativity, linear thinking, at what point in your writing do you turn to the fire and stare at it? That's interesting. Actually, there's a neurological explanation. When I used to fire is actually when I read, so I have chairs by the fire, but I think for exactly this reason, because when I'm reading, I'm looking to spark ideas. What's my takeaway from this? What's the connection you're making between just thing you're reading here and this idea over there? That type of connection making is a lot of my brainstorming. I read by the fire when the weather allows it.
我想知道，人们凝视火焰这件事，这种行为已经持续了成千上万年，因为火焰具有随机性。这样做是否会激发创造力或线性思维？在你写作的过程中，你什么时候会转向火焰，凝视它？这很有趣。其实，这是有神经学解释的。我在读书时坐在火炉旁的椅子上，也许正是因为这个原因，因为我在读书时，希望能激发灵感。我从中得到什么感悟？你是如何把正在阅读的内容和其他想法连接起来的？这种建立联系的过程就是我大部分的头脑风暴。我会在天气允许的时候在火炉旁读书。
I also walk a lot. So I wonder if there's something similar going on. When I'm trying to work through an idea for an article or a math proof or something like this, almost always I'm going to do that on foot. And there might be something similar going on there where you're encountering. It's not entirely exotic stimuli, right? So it's not, oh my god, my attention's being drawn, but it's, you don't quite know what you're going to see. And you also have that circuit quieting effect of the walkings. Your motor neurons are going. You can tell me if I'm getting this right or not. You are. Yeah, absolutely. The motor neurons are going and you get some inhibition going on and some of these key networks, which allows you to actually maintain the internal focus on a concept a little bit better.
我也经常走路。所以我想知道这是否有类似的效果。当我试图构思一篇文章的思路或一个数学证明时，我几乎总是在走路过程中完成。也许在这过程中你会遇到一些类似的情况。它并不完全是一些新奇的刺激，不是那种让你分散注意力的感觉，而是你不知道接下来会看到什么。此外，走路还有一种让大脑平静的效果。你的运动神经元在活动。你可以告诉我我理解得对不对。是的，完全正确。运动神经元在活动，也有抑制作用，这让你能更好地集中于内部的思维。
So I do a lot of my original focused ideating on foot, but a lot of my serendipitous ideating will be with the fire going. Right? It's the winter. I read by the fire. It's when I read that I get a lot of my original ideas. I have this theory that the two opposite states of mind that both facilitate creativity and productivity look something like this. And you can tell me whether or not this maps anything that you know. One is just as you described our body is in motion. It could be running, walking, might even be in the shower or something that sort. But we aren't trying to direct our mind toward a specific linear trajectory or outcome. It's not like working out an equation or a theorem the same way we would if we were at a piece of paper or writing out a sentence, a structured paragraph. So it's body and motion mind, not channel toward one specific target.
所以，我很多原创的想法是在走路时产生的，但很多偶然的灵感是在炉火旁产生的。对吧？这是在冬天。我在炉火旁阅读，阅读时往往能想到许多原创的点子。我有一个理论，认为有两种截然相反的状态能促进创造力和生产力。你可以告诉我这是否与你所知道的相符合。第一种就是你描述的那样：我们的身体在运动中。可以是在跑步、步行，甚至可能是在淋浴。但是，我们并没有试图将思维引导到一个特定的线性轨迹或结果上。它不像我们在纸上解方程或定理，或写一段结构化的段落那样。因此，这种状态是身体在运动，思想没有集中在一个特定的目标上。
The opposite extreme to me is body still mind very active, which resembles rapid eye movement sleep when we learn a lot and you're rewiring occurs and dreaming, but for which there's also a lot of examples of very accomplished creatives using that sort of thing of meditative like approaches, you know, forcing oneself to be still and thinking. So it sounds like you incorporate both. And I'm curious as a computer scientist who writes code, does theorems, does a lot of math where you can't just kind of wing it. There's a right and wrong answer involved. What is your mode for sitting down and working through something that's linear and hard?
对我来说，另一种极端状态是身体静止但头脑非常活跃，这类似于快速眼动睡眠。在这种状态下，我们可以学到很多东西，大脑也进行重新连接和做梦。此外，还有很多成功的创意人士使用类似冥想的方法，让自己保持静止并进行思考。听起来你结合了这两种方法。我很好奇，作为一名撰写代码、证明定理、做大量数学工作的计算机科学家，这些工作不能随意进行，涉及正确和错误的答案。你是如何在坐下来解决这些线性且困难的问题时进行工作的呢？
Yeah, it's interesting the way you talk about it, right? Because when I'm walking and this is actually something you can train, you know, and I talk about this one of my books once that you can actually train yourself to maintain your internal eye of focus more stably while you're walking. Right? So I call this productive meditation in deep work actually. And I practice this in grad school. Right? Okay. So I'm going to work on a particular problem while I walk and then you actually practice bringing your attention back to the central problem. And I don't know exactly what's happening, but you get a little bit more facility working with your working memory, a little bit more efficiency with bringing stuff in and out of the working memory. And so I train myself that I could actually write a couple paragraphs in my head, maybe not word for word, but basically word for word, like figure out how I'm going to do it or figure out enough steps of a math proof to capture like a key insight. Okay, now I'm going to get around this. Then you have to sit down and actually formally capture that.
是的，你这么说很有趣，对吧？因为当我在走路的时候，其实这是可以训练的。你知道，我在我的一本书中提到过，你可以通过训练让自己在走路时更稳定地保持专注力。我称之为“深度工作的有效冥想”。我在研究生阶段就实践了这个方法。
我的做法是在走路的时候专注于一个特定的问题，然后练习把注意力带回到核心问题上。我不太确定这过程中具体发生了什么，但你会发现处理工作记忆的能力有所提高，可以更高效地在工作记忆中调取信息。
我训练自己在脑海中写出几段文字，可能不是逐字逐句，但基本上是逐字逐句，或者理清楚怎么写，或者想到数学证明的关键步骤。然后，在整理好思路后，就需要坐下来正式记录这些想法。
Yeah, for me, that's still working with notebooks. Though when I was coming up in grad school, and I was just excavating these thoughts recently, we were talking before the, we recorded that, you know, I just wrote this essay about what I learned as a grad student that impacted all my writing as a grad student in the theory group at MIT, which was just purified concentration. This is where all the deep work ideas come from, right? I mean, it was just world-class concentrators. There the method was very still more than one person whiteboard. So if you have two or three people staring at the same whiteboard, you're actually going to up to level of concentration you achieve because if you let your attention wander, you disengage that attention. There's a social capital cost because now I've fallen out of the whiteboard effect discussion. That's going to be a problem.
是的，对我来说，仍然是使用笔记本。不过，在我读研究生的时候，最近我才重新挖掘这些想法。我们在录音前聊天时，我提到我刚刚写了一篇关于我在麻省理工学院理论组当研究生时所学到的东西的文章，这对我作为研究生时的写作产生了深远影响，那就是纯粹的专注力。这也是所有深度工作理念的来源。那里的人都是世界级的专注者。那时的方法仍然是以多人在白板前讨论为主。如果有两三个人盯着同一块白板，你就会达到更高的专注水平，因为如果你的注意力分散，就会失去参与感，这会带来社会资本的成本，因为你已经从白板讨论中掉队了，这会成为一个问题。
So you actually maintain your focus at a higher level, and then when someone else is making their move, okay, you know, what about this and they're working math. It's all math on the board. You're giving that the highest attention you're capable of because you want to keep up, right? You don't want to fall behind. So it was like this hack that was figured out in the theory group that if you put two or three people at the same whiteboard to try to alchemize these insights into actual mathematically precise proofs, you get a 20, 30% boost in your concentration level. And that could make all the difference, right? If you're working on a very hard proof, 20, 30% boost could be the difference between solving it or not.
所以，你实际上在保持高度专注，当别人正在提出他们的想法时，比如说，“这个怎么样”，他们在进行数学推演。所有的一切都在白板上进行数学运算。你给予它你所能做到的最高注意力，因为你想跟上，对吧？你不想掉队。所以，就像是理论小组里发现的一个技巧，如果你让两三个人同时在同一个白板上试图将这些见解转化为真正精确的数学证明，你的专注力水平会提高20%到30%。这可能会带来决定性的差别，对吧？如果你在研究一个非常困难的证明，20%到30%的提升可能就是能否解决问题的关键。
In one of these situations where you're at the whiteboard or chalkboard and there are two other individuals facing it, are they interrupting you or is the etiquette in that scenario to just let the person go until their natural inclination to raise a hand and scream help? Whoever has the marker on the board, they're the ones talking. So you go, okay, what about this, you say? And now you're working, you're writing down equations or drawing your diagram and everyone is just watching. And then when they're done, they're going to step back and looks at it, then you can step forward. Okay, but what if we did this? And then you still work on it.
在这种情况下，你站在白板或黑板前，另外两个人面对着它。他们会打断你吗？还是在这种场合下的礼仪是让在板子上写字的人一直讲解，直到他们自己停下来或求助为止？不管谁拿着记号笔，他们就负责讲解。你可能会说：“好，那这个呢？”然后你继续写方程或者画图，大家只是在旁边看。当你写完后，会退后一步查看，这时其他人才会上前说：“那么如果我们这样做呢？”随后继续探讨和书写。
So when I got built some offices or worked out some offices near my house, like one of the first things we put in there was a whiteboard. So they could have computer science collaborators come because we can't work on theory otherwise. Like it is the thing we need is a whiteboard. When I started grad school, they had just built this new $300 million Frank Gary designed building for the computer science artificial intelligence laboratory and linguistics. But half of it was computer science. I know those buildings because the P-Cour and the McGovern neuroscience. And those buildings are very interesting. People should check them out if they're ever in Cambridge.
当我在离家较近的地方建了几个办公室或安排了一些工作空间时，我们首先安装的东西之一就是白板。这样，计算机科学的合作者们就可以过来，因为如果没有白板，我们无法深入研究理论。当我开始研究生学习时，他们刚刚建了一座由Frank Gehry设计的新建筑，耗资3亿美元，用于计算机科学、人工智能实验室和语言学系。其中一半是用于计算机科学的。我对这些建筑非常熟悉，比如P-Cour和McGovern神经科学中心。这些建筑都很有趣，建议大家如果有机会去剑桥，一定要去看看。
Yeah, the scandal square stop. The status center. Yeah, right down the street from the commercial. Yeah. So the six floor was where the theoreticians were. This is where I was. So I, you know, they opened that building the year I started the doctoral program. And what did they want to show me when they brought me into the $300 million building? Look at our whiteboards. That's what they are proud of. They had filled the common space on the six floor. The theory floor with these free standing double-sided whiteboards. It was like a maze of whiteboards. And this is what everyone was so excited about was, yeah, look at our whiteboard coverage.
是的，丑闻广场停下来了。状态中心，就在商业区的街边。所以，第六层是理论学家的所在，我就在这里。我入读博士课程那年，他们刚刚开放了那栋耗资3亿美元的大楼。当他们带我参观时，他们最想让我看到的是什么呢？看看我们的白板。他们对此无比自豪。他们在六楼的公共空间，也就是理论楼层，放满了这些可移动的双面白板。这就像个白板迷宫。大家都为此感到激动不已，说是看看我们的白板覆盖率。
Surrounded by a $300 million million building. I was trying to explain to someone recently, having good whiteboards to us as like an astronomer saying, look, we got this great radio telescope. Like this is going to allow us to get data to work on that we wouldn't otherwise have access to. I think to a theoretician, that's why you see a whiteboard because, you know, if you want to think at the very highest level, you need two or three people staring at the same thing, taking turns with the marker, pushing each other past with their comfortable.
被价值三亿美元的建筑物包围。我最近在试图向某人解释，对我们来说，好用的白板就像是天文学家说，看看，我们有个很棒的射电望远镜。这会让我们获得一些我们原本无法接触到的数据。对于理论学家来说，这就是为什么你会看到他们总是在使用白板的原因。因为如果你想在最高层次上思考，你需要有两到三个人一起盯着同一个东西看，轮流用记号笔写写画画，迫使彼此突破舒适区。
I love this because I often think about visual maps that represent our internal memory stores and plans, et cetera, for productivity. I've always relied heavily on the whiteboard by getting one for home. I have one here in the podcast studio. All of my podcast notes for my solo episodes are distilled down to four eight and a half by 11 notes, which are photographs of the whiteboard. Yeah. And I don't use a teleprompter. That's how I've been accused of using one. We probably don't even know how that would work. But it's extremely useful to use the whiteboard.
我喜欢这样做，因为我常常想到用视觉地图来代表我们内在的记忆储存和计划等，这对提高效率非常有帮助。我一直很依赖白板，所以我在家里也买了一个。在我的播客录音室里也有一个。我所有的播客独白笔记都简化成了四张八乘十一的纸，上面是白板的照片。是的，我不用提词器，尽管有人指责我用过。我们可能甚至不知道那怎么用。但使用白板确实非常有帮助。
And I think because ideas are so easily put up there and removed, there's something about writing on things that are vertical as opposed to on a flat surface. I really, because that's actually the way our visual perception casts things. We don't cast visual perception onto the ground where we experience the visual world mostly in front of us. I think the cognitive map and the visual map are inextricably linked for at least for sighted folks. So I think there's really something there. So in the absence of colleagues to sit there and boost our attention by 25 to 30%. What could one do?
我认为，因为想法很容易被放上去或移除，所以在垂直的物体上书写和在平面上书写有所不同。这与我们的视觉感知方式有关。我们的视觉通常不是投射在地面上，而是主要在我们面前的世界。因此，我认为认知地图和视觉地图至少对有视力的人来说是密不可分的。我觉得这其中确实有意义。那么，如果没有同事在旁边帮助我们提高25%到30%的注意力，我们该怎么办呢？
Do you have a you said you have a whiteboard at home? I certainly use the whiteboard. Do work on it the same way you would in those early days just within the absence of colleagues looking on. Yeah. Yeah. So you work on it just like someone's there. The other hack is using really good notebooks. That's always made a big difference for me. Paper notebooks. Paper notebooks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The recently I've been messing around with a remarkable, which is one of these digital notebooks where it's eating technology. So it's like a Kindle, but you can write on it, but you have endless pages on it.
你是不是说你家里有一个白板？我确实会用白板。就像早期那些日子里一样工作，虽然没有同事在旁边。是啊，就是这样，你就像有人在旁边一样工作。另一个小诀窍是使用好的笔记本，这对我来说总是有很大的帮助。纸质笔记本，纸质笔记本。对，最近我在试用一款叫Remarkable的数字笔记本，它采用电子墨水技术，就像Kindle，但你可以在上面书写，而且有无限的页面。
So I've been messing around with that recently. But I remembered when I was a postdoc, for example, I found it recently. I went and bought a lab notebook because those are expensive, at least for a postdoc, right? They're like $70 because a lab notebook has to have archival quality paper. It's bound. It's bound. Yeah. People might not realize this lab notebooks need to be kept for many years. Yes. You're not supposed to tear pages out of them. And so they tend to be bound. So if you have terrible handwriting like I do, you just have to deal with it.
最近我一直在折腾那些东西。但我想起了我做博士后时的一件事，最近又遇到了。我去买了一本实验室笔记本，因为对博士后来说，那东西挺贵的，对吧？大概要70美元，因为实验室笔记本的纸张需要有档案保存的质量。它是装订起来的。是的，人们可能没意识到实验室笔记本需要保存很多年。是的，你不应该从中撕掉任何页面。所以它们通常是装订的。如果你的字迹很糟糕，比如我，你就得将就着用。
Yeah. You can't rip it out and thick, thick paper, acid free archival paper, big sturdy covers. But I bought this because I thought, okay, look, I'm going to take it more seriously because I think that's also part of what goes on with the whiteboard is your mind thinks about writing on the big vertical space as a public crystallization of thoughts. I'm putting this up for people to see. Even if there's no one actually there to see it. And so you take it more seriously, right? If I'm writing on a whiteboard in class, I'm not just going to put up nonsense. Like I'm going to be very careful about what I'm writing because you imagine there's an audience. This is something for other people to see.
好的。你不能把它撕下来，还有厚厚的纸，都是无酸的档案纸，还有坚固的封面。但我买这个的原因是，我认为我要更认真地对待它，因为我觉得这和用白板写字有些相似。你的大脑认为在大面积的竖直空间书写是一种将想法公开展现的方式。我把这些写上去是给别人看的。即使实际上没有人会看到它。因此，你会更加认真对待它，对吧？如果我在课堂上用白板写字，我不会随意乱写。我会很认真地写，因为我会想象有观众在看。这是给别人看的东西。
And so you get a little bit of a similar effect. If you have a very nice notebook, you think look, I don't want to waste pages. And somehow that helps with the thinking. So then I found this notebook because I store my old notebooks in my closet. So I found it. And when I was working on a recent book, I found it. I went through it, right? And then I started ticking off this turned into a paper, this turned into a grant. The notebook I used it for maybe two years. Only used maybe about half the pages. It's all very careful, neat script and diagrams. I think I found seven different peer-reviewed papers or funded grants where the core ideas were in this notebook.
所以你会体验到类似的情况。如果你有一个非常漂亮的笔记本，你可能会想，我不想浪费这些纸张。因此，这种想法反而促进了思考。我保存我以前用过的笔记本在衣柜里，所以我找到了其中一本。我最近在写一本书时，把这本笔记本拿出来翻阅了一遍。然后我开始标记其中的内容，这个点子变成了一篇论文，那个点子变成了一项资助。我大概用了这本笔记本两年，只用了大约一半的页数。里面用非常工整的字迹书写，还画了很多图。我想我找到七篇文章或获得资助的项目的核心创意都来自这本笔记本。
So it's like that $70 was an incredible investment because when I got to working that notebook, it must have been pushing my thinking to a new level because it was an incredible concentration of actual publishable results were coming out of these pages. Yeah, it seems like we would all do well regardless of our field to have some very low bar method of capture where if we just have an idea that spontaneously comes to mind that we can capture that in a voice memo or there I say in a phone notes segment. But then something as you're suggesting like a whiteboard, like a bound notebook where the moment we look at it, it brings about a level of seriousness to our thinking and to our actions.
所以，那个70美元（指买笔记本）的投入真是太值了，因为当我开始在那个笔记本上工作时，它一定把我的思维提升到了一个新的水平，因为这些页面上产生了大量可以发表的成果。是的，无论我们从事什么领域，似乎我们都应该采用某种低门槛的方法来捕捉灵感，比如，用语音备忘录或手机记事本记录下突然涌现的想法。但是，正如你建议的那样，比如使用白板或者精装笔记本，当我们看到它时，会对我们的思考和行动带来一种严肃的态度。
This is different than just texting. We're really talking about our layers of sophistication but not in a snobby way in terms of highest productivity and quality to bubble gum wrapper on the floor type levels of quote unquote productivity. Well, I mean, I've become a fan of this idea of having specialized capture for specific type of work. So for example, I'm a big believer in pretty quickly you want to capture ideas in the tool you use to do that work. So when I have ideas for an article or a book, I'm going to go right to Scrivener, which is specialty, this is specialty software writers used to write, right?
这和只是发短信不同。我们真正讨论的是我们的复杂层次，但不是用一种自命不凡的方式，而是从最高效和高质量到像地上的口香糖包装纸那样的“生产力”水平。我的意思是，我很喜欢为特定类型的工作进行专项记录的这个概念。比如，我坚信，你应该尽快在相应的工具中记录下你的想法。因此，当我有文章或书籍的想法时，我会直接使用Scrivener，这是专门为作家设计的写作软件。
I'm going to go right to a Scrivener project and start putting these in the research section of that Scrivener project when I'm working on a math or computer science thing. I might work out proof ideas on paper, but I pretty quickly want to get that into a latex document. So the markup language that you use for doing sort of like applied math papers, right? The tool we use to actually write papers. I'm going to move an idea into there as soon as I can. I'm going to move proofs out of a notebook and into formally marked up like you would for a paper, you know, as soon as I would.
我要直接进入Scrivener项目，把这些放到Scrivener项目的研究部分中，当我在处理数学或计算机科学的问题时。我可能会先在纸上推导证明思路，但我很快就想把它们放到一个LaTeX文档中。LaTeX是一种用于撰写应用数学论文的标记语言，是我们用来正式撰写论文的工具。我会尽快把想法转移到LaTeX文档里。我会尽早把证明从笔记本中移出，并用像论文一样的正式格式整理好。
So this idea, this is something I've been leaning to more is capture the notes in the tool you're going to use take out the middle man in some sense, right? So it's reducing friction, but also puts you in the right mind space like, okay, this idea, I'm going to put it where I'm going to need it later. As opposed to a more elaborate third party system that you construct that you then later pull everything out of as needed. This is what I've been doing more recently. Let's just get straight to the tool I'm eventually going to use with maybe a high quality notebook intermediary if I'm actually literally working out thoughts.
这个想法是这样的，我最近越来越倾向于直接在你将要使用的工具中记录笔记，从某种意义上来说，就是去掉中间环节。这样做不仅减少了阻力，还能让你进入正确的思维状态，即“我会把这个想法放在我以后需要用到的地方”。相比之下，用复杂的第三方系统记录，然后再按需要提取就显得繁琐得多。这也是我最近在做的事情：直接使用我最终要用的工具，当然，如果我是在整理思路的话，也许会用一个高质量的笔记本当作中介。
So math, you have to work out thoughts, but I'll get that into an actual paper format pretty quickly. Tell me what you think of this, what I always call protocol. If I want to learn something from a manuscript I read or a book chapter, I used to highlight things and I had a very elaborate extracted from my university days system of stars and exclamation marks and underlined that mean a lot to me that can, yes, bring me back to a given segment within the chapter.
这段话的意思是：数学这门学科需要你去理清思路，但我会很快把这些想法整理成正式的书面形式。告诉我你对这个想法的看法，我常把它称为“协议”。如果我想从某个手稿或者书的章节中学习内容，我习惯于用荧光笔标出一些重要的东西。在我的大学时期，我有一个非常复杂的系统，通过星号、感叹号和下划线来标记对我很重要的内容，这样我可以轻松地回到章节中的某一段。
But a few years ago, I was teaching a course in the biology department at Stanford and for some reason we had them read a study about information retention. And I learned from that study that one of the best things we can do is read information in whatever form, a magazine, research article, etc., a book. And then to take some time away from that material, maybe walk, maybe close one of the eyes, maybe leave them open, doesn't matter, and just try and remember specific elements. How much does one remember? Then go back to the material and look at it.
几年前，我在斯坦福大学生物系教授一门课程。出于某种原因，我们让学生阅读了一项关于信息记忆的研究。我从这项研究中了解到，有效记住信息的方法之一是，首先阅读各种形式的信息，比如杂志、研究文章或书籍。读完后，给自己一些时间远离这些材料，可以去散步、闭上一只眼或睁着眼，这些都无所谓，只要尝试回忆具体的内容就行。你能记住多少内容呢？然后，再回到材料，重新查看一遍。
And I've just been positively astonished at how much more information I can learn when I'm not simply going through motor commands of just underlining things and highlighting them, but stepping away and thinking, okay, yeah, I don't know, I don't remember how many subjects there were, I'll go back and check that, maybe make a note. Okay, they did this, then they did that, and then like, and then it's crystallized. And when, as I say this, I realize, of course this should work. This is the way that the brain learns, but somehow that's not the way we are taught to learn.
我非常惊讶地发现，当我不只是机械地画下划线和做标记，而是暂停思考，比如，我不记得有多少个研究对象，我会回去查一下，然后做个笔记。哦，他们做了这个，然后又做了那个，最后一切都变得清晰了。当我这样说的时候，我意识到，这当然是有效的。这就是大脑学习的方式，但不知为何，这并不是我们被教导用来学习的方法。
Yeah, well, I'm smiling because when I was 22, I wrote this book called How to Become a Straight-A student. And the whole premise of the book was, I'm going to talk to actual college students who have straight a's and who don't seem completely ground out, like not burnt out. And I'm just going to interview them. And the protocol was, how did you study for the last test that you study for? How did you take notes for a while? So I was just asking them to walk through their methodology. The core idea of that book was active recall.
好的，我笑是因为在我22岁的时候，我写了一本书，叫做《如何成为全优生》。这本书的基本理念是，我打算和那些成绩全优而且看起来并没有筋疲力尽的大学生交谈。我会采访他们，询问他们是如何准备上次考试的，怎样做笔记的。我的目的就是让他们分享自己的学习方法。这本书的核心思想是主动回忆。
That was the core idea that replicating ideas, ways to say is replicating the information from scratch as if teaching a class without looking at your notes. That is the only way to learn. And the thing about it was it's a trade-off. It doesn't take, it's efficient, doesn't take much time, but it's incredibly mentally taxy, right? This is why students often avoid it. It is difficult to sit there and try to replicate and pull forth, okay, what did I read here? How did that work? It's mentally very taxing, but it's very time efficient, right?
核心思想是，通过复述想法和表达方式来重新处理信息，就像在上课时不看笔记直接讲授。这是唯一的学习方法。而这其中有一个权衡点：这种方法虽然非常高效，不需要太多时间，但却极其费脑力。因此，学生们通常会避开这种方法。坐下来努力复述、回忆，比如“我在这里读到了什么？这是怎么运作的？”的确是非常耗费脑力的，但也是非常节省时间的，对吧？
If you're willing to essentially put up with that pain, you learn very quickly. And not only do you learn very quickly, you don't forget. It's almost like you have a pseudo photographic memory. When you study this way, you sit down to do a test and you're replicating like whole lines from what you studied. The idea has sort of come out fully formed. It's such a fantastic way to actually learn. It was my key. The whole premise that got me writing that book is I went through this period as a college student where I came in freshman year was like a fine student, not a great student, but a fine student.
如果你愿意忍受这份痛苦，那么你会学得很快。而且不仅学得快，还不容易忘记。就好像你有一种伪摄影记忆。当你以这种方式学习时，考试时就能把所学内容一行行地写出来，想法就像是自然成形的。这是一种极好的学习方式，对我来说非常关键。我写那本书的原因是我在大学期间经历了这样的一个阶段：大一入学时，我只是一个普通的学生，并不算优秀。
And I was rowing crew and I was sort of excited to do that. And then I developed the heart condition and had to stop congenital wiring in the heart, atrial flutter thing. I mean, I couldn't row crew anymore. So prolapse? It was a circuitry issue that would lead to an extremely rapid heartbeat. It's like a really rapid like tachycardia, you get 250 beats a minute just and it could be exercise induced, right, which is not optimal. You could take beta blockers which would moderate the electrical timing, but beta blockers reduce your max heart rate.
我当时在参加赛艇比赛，还挺兴奋的。但是后来我心脏出现了问题，不得不停下来，是先天性的心脏导线问题，也就是心房扑动。就是说，我不能再划赛艇了。是心脏传导的问题，会导致心跳极其快速。就像非常快的心动过速，一分钟心跳可以达到250次，而且可能是运动引起的，这显然不太合适。你可以服用β-受体阻滞剂来调节电信号的节奏，但这类药会降低你的最高心率。
And if you're an athlete where the entire thing that matters is your max heart rate. So you're doing something like a 2000 meter rows, your performance on beta blockers just goes down. It makes no sense. It's like being a basketball player that wears weighted shoes. It's too frustrating. Right. It also makes you super malo. I was pretty malo guy. But I was a worse rower. So I stopped that. I was like, okay, I want to get serious about my studies. I was out of the serious about my studies and writing, right? That's when I actually made the decisions that I didn't stuck with for the next 25 years after that.
如果你是一名运动员，你所关注的就是你的最大心率。那么，比如说你在进行2000米划船赛时，如果服用了β受体阻滞剂，你的表现就会下降。这完全没道理，就像是篮球运动员穿着负重鞋打球一样，让人很沮丧。而且这会让你变得非常无能。我本来就是个比较无能的人，但在划船方面就更差了。所以我放弃了划船。我想要认真对待我的学业。我全身心投入到学习和写作中，那时我做出了这个决定，并在之后的25年里一直坚持下去。
But one of the things I did to get serious about my studies is I said, I'm going to systematically experiment with how to study for tests and how to write papers. And I had I would try this. How did it go? Deconstruct experiment. Try this. How to go deconstruct experiment. And active recall is a thing to turn me all around. And so I went from a pretty good student to four O every single quarter, sophomore year, junior year, senior year. I got one A-minus between my sophomore year through my senior year.
但为了认真对待学习，我决定系统地尝试不同的方法来准备考试和撰写论文。我会进行这样的尝试，看看效果如何，然后反思这个实验。然后再尝试另一种方法，看看结果，再反思。这种不断的实验和反思让我找到了高效学习的方法，尤其是“主动记忆”这个技巧让我改变很大。结果，我从一个成绩不错的学生，变成了大二、大三和大四每个学期都拿到满分的学生。在这期间，我只拿过一个A-。
It was like this miraculous transformation. It was active recall. I rebuilt all of my studies. So if it was for a humanities class, I had a whole way of taking notes. It was all built around doing active recall. For math classes, my main study tool was a stack of white paper. All right. Do this proof, white piece of paper. And just can't I do it from scratch? If I could, I know that technique. If I don't, all right, I'm going to come back and try it again later, completely transformed. You know, I did so well academically.
这就像一个奇迹般的转变。我的学习方法变成了主动回忆。我重新构建了我的全部学习方式。如果是人文学科的课，我有一整套记笔记的方法，所有这些都是围绕主动回忆来进行的。对于数学课，我的主要学习工具是一叠白纸。好吧，做这个证明，用白纸，然后就开始从头做。如果我能做到，那我就掌握了这个技巧。如果我做不到，好吧，我会过段时间再回来重新尝试。这完全改变了我的学习方式，你知道吗，我在学业上表现得非常出色。
It's why I ended up writing that book that basically spread that message to other people. So I'm a huge advocate for active recall. It's really hard, but it is the way to learn new things.
这就是为什么我最终写了那本书，旨在向他人传播这个信息。因此，我非常推崇主动回忆（active recall）。虽然这很难，但它确实是学习新事物的有效方法。
I'd like to take a brief moment and thank one of our sponsors. And that's AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012. The reason I started taking it and the reason I still take it every day is that it ensures that I meet all of my quotas for vitamins and minerals. And it ensures that I get enough probiotic and probiotic to support gut health.
我想花一点时间感谢我们的赞助商之一：AG1。AG1是一种富含维生素、矿物质和益生菌的饮品，还包含适应原。我从2012年就开始饮用AG1。我之所以开始并坚持每天饮用，是因为它能让我摄取足够的维生素和矿物质，同时也确保我得到足够的益生菌，以支持肠道健康。
Now, gut health is something that over the last 10 years we realized is not just important for the health of our gut, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain functioning. Now, of course, I strive to consume healthy whole foods for the majority of my nutritional intake every single day.
现在，我们在过去10年中意识到，肠道健康不仅仅对肠道本身的重要，更对我们的免疫系统以及神经递质和神经调节物（例如多巴胺和血清素）的产生至关重要。换句话说，肠道健康对于大脑正常运作来说是不可或缺的。当然，我每天都努力食用健康的全食物，作为我主要的营养摄入来源。
But there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard to get from whole foods or at least insufficient quantities. So, AG1 allows me to get the vitamins and minerals that I need, probiotics, prebiotics, the adaptogens, and critical micronutrients.
不过，在AG1中包含了许多物质，其中包括一些在全食物中难以获得或摄取不足的特定微量营养素。因此，AG1让我能够获取所需的维生素和矿物质、益生菌、益生元、适应原和关键微量营养素。
So anytime somebody asks me if they were to take just one supplement, what that supplement should be, I tell them AG1. Because AG1 supports so many different systems within the body that are involved in mental health, physical health, and performance. To try AG1, go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman and you'll get a year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free travel packs of AG1.
每当有人问我，如果只能选择一种保健品，那应该选什么时，我都会推荐AG1。因为AG1支持身体内的多种系统，涉及心理健康、身体健康和表现能力。想要尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com斜杠Huberman，您将获得一年的维生素D3K2供应和五个免费的AG1旅行装。
Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman. And as you pointed out, is this very time efficient? Oh, yeah. I mean, it was a problem. It was a social problem for me that I would have to pretend during finals period that I was going to the library to study because I would be done studying.
再次访问 drinkag1.com/Huberman。如你所说，这样做是否非常省时？哦，是的。对我来说，这是个问题。期末考试期间，我不得不假装去图书馆学习，因为我早就学完了，这对我来说是个社交问题。
This act of recall, it's brutal, but it's incredibly efficient. You sit down there, I would have my cards, I would mark it. Okay, I struggled with this. I'd put it in this pile. I got it done. I'd put it in this pile. And so then you would just go back to the, I struggled with it pile and work on that and then make a new, I struggled with it pile and these would exponentially decay.
这种回忆的过程很残酷，但却异常高效。你坐下来，我会拿出我的卡片，进行标记。比如说，我对这件事很吃力，那我就把它放进“我吃力”这一堆。我完成了的，就放进另一堆。然后你只需要回到“我吃力”这一堆，继续练习，并重新整理出一个新的“我吃力”堆，这些困难会逐渐减少。
And so in like a few hours, you could really master, you know, with a few other tricks that worked, you could really master the material pretty quickly. And then what am I supposed to do? I didn't do all nighters. They go on to make any sense. Like, act of recall is how you prepare. It's going to take four hours and it's going to be tough. So do it in the morning when you have energy and then you're done.
在几个小时内，你可以掌握那些材料，再加上一些其他有效的小技巧，你就能很快掌握，然后我该怎么办呢？我不熬夜，因为这样做没意义。主动回忆才是准备的方法，这会花费四个小时，并且很难。所以，要在早上精力充沛的时候进行，然后就完成了。
I love it. I learned essentially all of neuronatomy looking down the my, your scope at tissue samples. And then I would try and take photographs with my eyes. I do not have a photographic memory, but then I would get home in the evening, look through the neuronatomy textbook, lie down and try and fly through the different circuits in my mind.
我很喜欢这样做。我几乎是在透过显微镜观察组织样本时学会了所有神经解剖学的知识。然后，我会努力用眼睛“拍下”这些图像。虽然我没有过目不忘的记忆力，但晚上回到家后，我会翻阅神经解剖学教材，躺下并试图在脑海中"飞越"不同的神经回路。
And then if I arrived at a structure in the brain that I couldn't identify, I would then go check my notes and go back. So I basically, I learned neuronatomy, which I, you know, I'm poor. I'd agree many things in life, but neuronatomy, I'm solid at and then some, if I may say so.
然后，如果我遇到了一个大脑结构，我无法识别，我就会去查阅我的笔记，然后重新回去学习。所以基本上，我学会了神经解剖学。对于许多事情来说，我可能不太在行，但在神经解剖学方面，我非常擅长，并且还要夸一句自己。
And it's because there's a mental map. You can move through it, you know, fly through it dynamically. And that it's the same process. Not all things lend themselves to that approach. I'm guessing maybe we could think of a few that don't. I guess if people were learning music, that might be tricky. Maybe they need the sheet music in front of them. I don't know. I'm not a musician.
这与大脑中的“思维地图”有关。你可以在其中移动，自由地动态穿梭。这是一个相同的过程。但并不是所有事情都适合这种方法。我想我们可以想到几件不适合的事情。比如，学习音乐可能会有些困难。可能他们需要把乐谱放在面前。我不太确定，因为我不是音乐家。
Yeah. I mean, I studied a professional guitar player at one point. You were a professional guitar player. No, I studied one. Oh, so for a book, everything's from some book. I read a lot of books. So I wrote a book 10 years ago where I was trying to figure out as part of it, how do people get better at things.
好的。我曾经研究过一位职业吉他手。 你曾经是一名职业吉他手吗？ 不是的，我是研究了一位。 哦，是为了写一本书，所有的都是来自某本书。我读了很多书。大约十年前我写了一本书，其中一个部分是我想弄清楚人们是如何提高技能的。
And so I spent time with professional guitar player. They said, I just wanted to see how he practiced. Like what does this actually look like? What I learned from them is like, what they do is yeah, they have the music in front of them, but for them, it's all speed.
于是我花了一些时间和一位专业吉他手在一起。他们说，他们只是想看看他是如何练习的，想知道这实际是什么样的。我从他们身上了解到的是，他们确实会把乐谱放在面前，但对他们来说，一切都是关于速度。
So they take a piece. He was working on Lix for he was a new acoustic style player. And they had these kind of blue grassy type Lix. And he probably had a memorize. And he knew how fast he could comfortably play it. For them, it's all about adding 20% to what they're comfortably doing.
所以他们拿了一段音乐。他正在练习一种叫做Lix的新声学风格。他们有一些蓝草风格的Lix，他可能已经记住了这些段落，并知道自己能舒适地演奏到多快。而对他们来说，关键在于在他们舒适的速度上再加快20%。
And then that push past for their comfortable. And the thing I remember writing about him was he was concentrating so hard to try to hit this lick 20% faster than he was used to it is he'd forget to breathe. So he'd be like going, going, going, and then just gasp, you know, like his body would, you know, force him for some to breathe.
然后，那就是他们努力突破自己舒适区的表现。我记得写到他的时候，有一点特别印象深刻：他专注地想要把这个乐句弹得比平常快20%，以至于忘记了呼吸。他会一直不停地弹，弹，弹，然后突然大口喘气，就像他的身体逼着他不得不呼吸一样。
So yeah, there seemed to be all about deliberate practice. So like how do you they don't waste any time professional musicians waste no time doing things are comfortable doing every time they spend practicing. And this is also incredibly difficult. But every time they spend practicing is almost entirely in a state of I'm not comfortable with this. But if I focus as hard as I can, maybe I'm going to pull this off. Like I'll pull off the sonata at this new speed I'm trying to do. Maybe I'll pull it off. It's like the maximal growth stimulating state.
所以，是的，这似乎都是关于刻意练习。职业音乐家不会浪费任何时间去做那些他们已经习惯的事情。他们的每一分每一秒都是在非常不舒服的状态下练习，但他们会尽可能集中注意力，努力克服这些不适。比如说，他们会尝试以新的速度演奏奏鸣曲，虽然不确定能不能做到，但会全力以赴。这种状态就像是在刺激最大的成长。
And so I wrote in the in this chapter, why was he so much better at guitar than I was at the same age because I played a lot of guitar when I was younger and was in rock bands right. And this kid was young right but really, really good. And I said, okay, now I realize it. I can recognize me when I look back at my time playing guitar at his age, I played stuff I knew had a play. Like that's what was fun. Like yeah, I want to like jam along with the songs I knew or, you know, rip some pentatonic scales, you know, to like a Jimmy Hendrix album.
在这一章中，我写道，为什么他在吉他方面比同龄时的我优秀那么多？我年轻时也经常弹吉他，还加入了摇滚乐队。而这个孩子年纪尚小，却已经非常出色。我反思了一下，终于明白了。当我回顾自己那个年纪弹吉他的时光时，我意识到自己总是弹一些熟悉的东西，因为那样才有趣。我喜欢跟着熟悉的歌曲即兴演奏，或者在Jimmy Hendrix的专辑中弹些五声音阶。这就是我的乐趣所在。
It was fun. And he spent almost no time the process but no time having fun. Practicing was your brain had to be, you know, uncomfortable. So I learned a lot from that, you know. This actually led to a bit of a battle because of my readers, there was this a this battle that emerged where people were trying to combine Anders Erickson and deliberate practice with Mehali, chick sent me high and flow. And really they were trying to make flow apply everywhere. Like it's all about flow, deliberate practices flow, everything is flow. The whole thing is again to a state of flow.
这段话翻译成中文是这样的：
这很有趣。他在这个过程中几乎没花多少时间来享受乐趣。练习需要让你的大脑感到有些不适。所以我从中学到了很多。这其实引发了一场小小的争论，因为我的读者中出现了一种趋势，人们试图将安德斯·艾里克森的刻意练习和米哈里·契克森米哈伊的心流结合在一起。他们真的想让心流适用于所有地方，好像一切都是关于心流的，刻意练习是心流，一切都是心流。整个关键就是进入心流状态。
And I remember Anders talking about this at some point and say like, no, no, no, like this state of practice that makes you better. It's the opposite of flow, right? And flow you lose track of time. When you're practicing like that professional guitar player, you know every second that passes by because it's like incredibly difficult. Like what you're doing, your mind is rebelling. It's not natural. You know, it's not fun. It's not the skier going down the hill and it's all instinct. It's you it's all you thinking about exactly what you're trying to do.
我记得安德斯曾经谈到过这一点，他说这是一种让你变得更好的练习状态。与“沉浸其中”正好相反。在“沉浸其中”时，你会忘记时间的流逝。但像专业吉他演奏家那样练习时，你会感受到每一秒时间的流逝，因为这真的非常困难。你所做的事情让你的大脑感到抗拒，这不是自然而然的，也不有趣。它不像滑雪者从山坡上滑下，这是完全靠本能。而是你在完全专注于你正在努力尝试做的事情。
And so, you know, I began to push this point out here is like it's not all about flow. Like actually getting better at things is really painful sometimes. Deliberate practice is not the same as flow. And there's a lot of fights about this for a while. I think there was a lot of flow advocates that just wanted life to be flow all the time. But I think Anders was right because I watched these professionals practice. Like that's what it is. It's not fun.
所以，我开始强调这一点：并不是一切都是“心流”（flow）。实际上，提高技能有时是非常痛苦的。有意识的练习并不等同于“心流”。关于这一点曾有过很多争论。我认为有很多“心流”的倡导者希望生活一直处于这种状态。但我觉得安德斯是对的，因为我观察了那些专业人士的练习情况。所谓练习，并不是件有趣的事。
Well, everything we know about neuroplasticity, which of course is the nervous system's ability to change in response to experience says that there needs to be some neurochemical or electrical condition that changes in the nervous system in order to queue up plasticity. And to my knowledge, one of the most robust of those is the release of the so-called catacole means dopamine, epinephrine, nor epinephrine.
好的，根据我们对神经可塑性的了解，神经系统在经历刺激后能够发生变化，但这种变化需要一些神经化学或电气条件的改变来触发可塑性。据我所知，其中一个最有效的条件就是释放所谓的儿茶酚胺类物质，如多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素。
Dopamine because it's involved in so many things can be a little bit of a distractor. So let's just say epinephrine, nor epinephrine, adrenaline, nor adrenaline. It create in the body and mind to some extent a state of alertness and often a state of agitation. But if you think about it, in the absence of some neuromodulators like those that change the conditions for wiring of neurons, you know, everyone loves fire together, wire together. A beautiful statement by Carla Schatz, not Donald Hebb, Dr. Carla Schatz said that not Donald Hebb.
多巴胺涉及许多事情，有时候可能会让人分心。我们可以把注意力放在肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素上，它们在人体和精神上创造了一定程度的警觉状态，经常伴随着激动。但如果你仔细想想，在缺少一些神经调节物质的情况下，比如那些改变神经元连接条件的物质，大家都喜欢"一起发光，一起连结"。这是卡拉·沙兹（Carla Schatz）的精彩论述，而非唐纳德·赫布（Donald Hebb）的观点，是卡拉·沙兹博士说的，不是唐纳德·赫布。
But why would neurons need to change their patterns of connectivity if you can complete the operation? The nervous system needs to, it doesn't feel discomfort, it creates discomfort. But the nervous system needs a queue to, okay, this is different. I'm failing. And it's the failures that actually trigger the plasticity is the discomfort that queues that conditions are different now. Otherwise, there's simply no reason to devote energetic resources to rewiring neurons.
但是，如果你可以完成这个操作，为什么神经元还需要改变它们的连接模式呢？因为神经系统需要这样做。它不会感到不适，它会制造不适。不过，神经系统需要一个信号来表明，"好吧，这个情况不一样了，我失败了。" 实际上，是这些失败触发了神经的可塑性，是不适感提示了现在的条件发生了变化。否则，就没有理由投入能量资源来重新连接神经元。
And I feel like we don't learn this when we're kids. We, and I think as kids, we can learn so much without that feeling of agitation. We get into these modes of looking for flow. And I have respect for the research on flow and the people who are balled in, but I'd like to talk about flow a little bit. The only thing I really know about flow for sure is that backwards it spells wolf.
我觉得我们小时候并没有学到这些。作为孩子，我们可以在不感到焦虑的情况下学到很多东西。我们会寻找一种“心流”的状态。我很尊重“心流”的研究和那些投入其中的人们，但我想稍微谈谈“心流”。关于“心流”，我唯一确信的是，把这个词倒过来拼就是“狼”。
So, it's such an attractive idea, right? It's like Star Wars. It's like you have the force and you're doing things without thinking. And awesome, but I can't flow myself through a paper and extract the critical data. I can't create a podcast in flow. But when it's done, it feels great, especially if you nailed the key metrics. So, what do you think about flow? I'm not trying to beat up on it. I just want to understand how you place it in the framework of learning and deep work if it belongs there at all. It doesn't have a big place in it in the deep work framework. And this was what the controversy was for a while. And I knew Mahaley a little bit. We corresponded some. I knew Anders a little bit. We corresponded some. So, I felt like I was, and both of them actually tragically have died in the last three or four years, I think. Yeah, I think both recently.
这真是一个吸引人的想法，对吧？就像《星球大战》一样，就好像你拥有了原力，可以不经思考就完成事情。这很棒，但我不能轻松地从纸上找到关键信息，也不能在这种“心流”状态中创建播客。不过，当事情完成后，感觉会很好，尤其是当你掌握了关键指标的时候。那么，你怎么看待“心流”？我不是在批评它，我只是想理解你如何将它置于学习和深度工作的框架中，如果它真的属于那个框架的话。在深度工作的框架中，“心流”并不是一个重要的部分。对此曾经有过一些争论。我和米哈里有过一些交流，也和安德斯有过来往，所以我觉得自己对这个话题有一些了解。他们两人都很不幸在过去三、四年内去世了。是的，我想都是最近去世的。
Flow doesn't play a big role in the deep work framework. So, when I was trying to justify deep work, so why focusing without distraction was important. I was drawing a lot more for Anders work, right? Because why is focusing without distraction important? Well, you have to quiet the neural circuitries. You can isolate the circuit that's actually relevant to the thing that you're doing, right? You're not going to get better at something if you have noisy circuitry. This is, and that requires a really intense concentration. So, I use one of the big advantages of deep work was if you're used to that cognitive state, you're going to learn things faster. And I think it was all Anders to understand why.
在深度工作框架中，"心流"并不是一个重要的部分。因此，当我试图论证深度工作的价值时，也就是为什么专注且不被打扰地工作很重要时，我多引用了安德斯的研究。为什么专注且不被打扰很重要呢？因为这样可以安抚大脑神经回路，你能隔离出真正与当前任务相关的回路。如果大脑中有太多干扰，你很难在某件事情上有所提升。这需要极度的专注。我认为，深度工作的一个主要优势是，如果你习惯了这种认知状态，你会更快地学习新事物。我认为理解这一点要感谢安德斯的研究。
So, if you're not distracted, I'm really focusing hard on what I'm doing trying to learn this new thing. You're giving the right mental conditions. But it's not a flow state. And I always used to say, okay, when your deep work is not flow, because of this, like a lot of deep work is you're trying to do something that is beyond your comfort zone. And that's going to be difficult. That's a state of deliberate practice. And there's a famous paper about this where Anders actually explicitly says deliberate practice and flow are very different. And I wrote an essay years ago called the Father of Deliberate Practice Disones Flow. And again, people are really flow partisans out there.
所以，如果你没有被分心，我就能非常专注于我正在做的事情，努力学习这项新技能。你提供了正确的心理条件。但这并不是一种“心流”状态。我过去常常说，当你的深入工作不是“心流”时，这就是因为很多深入工作都是在挑战你的舒适区，这当然很困难。这种状态被称为“刻意练习”。有一篇著名的论文中，安德斯明确表示“刻意练习”和“心流”是非常不同的。我几年前写过一篇文章，题为《刻意练习之父与心流割席》。对了，外面有很多人是“心流”的坚定支持者。
It's interesting. I think people just like the idea because it feels good. But I mean, flow is the feeling of performance is the way I think about it. It's really hard to train for certain sports. But then when you're actually performing, you're in the game, you can fall in the flow. Because then everything is on the, it's really hard to train guitar. But when you're performing in from a big crowd, you probably, maybe you fall in the flow. Maybe you don't, but you could, right? But it's a performance state. Not the practicing getting better state.
这很有趣。我想人们喜欢这个想法是因为它让人感觉良好。但在我看来，“心流”就是一种表现的感觉。训练某些运动真的很难，但是当你真正参与比赛时，你可能会进入心流状态。因为在比赛的时候，一切都在进行中。而且，练习吉他也很难，但是当你在大场合表演时，你可能会进入心流状态，当然也可能不会，但这是有可能的，对吧？这是一种表现的状态，而不是练习变得更好的状态。
So, to me, flow has like very little role in how I think about what I do as a cognitive professional. It's just not something that comes up that often. I agree that we learn through focused work and that flow does manifest itself during performance. And sometimes so much so that people exhibit virtuosity. It's the surprising themselves even at what's in there. And that's kind of, I always think of it. It's what is unskilled, skilled mastery of virtuosity. Virtuosity seems to incorporate some random elements of maybe even the performer has not done that before and they surprise themselves or something like that. Who knows? These are words for something that isn't easily quantified in the first place.
对我来说，"心流"在我作为认知专业人士思考自己工作时，并不是一个重要的因素。它并不是经常出现的概念。我同意我们通过专注的工作来学习，并且在表现过程中确实会出现心流现象。有时候，这种现象会达到让人表现出极高技巧水平的地步。他们甚至会对自己能够做到的事情感到惊讶。这种状态让我想到的是熟练却自然形成的技艺。技艺往往包含一些随机的因素，甚至表演者之前可能从未尝试过这些，他们也会惊讶于自己的表现。谁知道呢？这些词描绘的是一些本身难以量化的事情。
But in terms of deep work and getting a little bit back to kind of practical steps towards deep work, I also have to ask you because I didn't earlier when you are on your laptop in your library with your fireplace and these books. It's a beautiful image actually. They've drawn for us in our minds. Is the Wi-Fi connection to your computer activated or are you offline? It's connected because it doesn't really matter to me. Because what is it what's drawing my attention? I mean, the most important decision I think I made technically speaking to be a cognitive worker is I didn't lack a social media.
关于深度工作的讨论，特别是回到一些实现深度工作的实际步骤，我必须问你一个问题，因为之前没问——当你在书房里用笔记本电脑工作，旁边是壁炉和书籍，这幅画面其实很美。那么，此时你的电脑是否连着Wi-Fi，或者是离线的呢？ 是连着的，因为对我来说这并不重要。到底是什么在吸引我的注意力呢？我想，作为一个以认知工作为主的人，我做出的最重要的技术决定就是不使用社交媒体。
I think we underestimate the degree to which our problem with digital distraction is not the internet. It's not our phones. It is specific products and services that are engineered at great expense to pull you back to them. When you take that away, the internet is not that interesting. I don't have a cycle of sites to go to. I can check my email, but I don't really know where else to go. I mean, I can go to the New York Times, but then you've seen the articles. They change it once a day. There's just not much. I've set things up so there's not much that's that interesting to me.
我认为我们低估了数字分心问题的真正根源，其实并不是互联网，也不是我们的手机。而是某些产品和服务，它们花费巨资设计，让你不断回到它们那里。当你不再受到这些影响时，互联网其实并没有那么吸引人。我没有固定要访问的网站。我可以查看我的电子邮件，但除此之外，我真不知道还能去哪里。我可以访问《纽约时报》，但它的文章也只是每天更新一次。总的来说，我把事情安排得没那么吸引我。
We've all heard of FOMO, fear of missing out. I feel like there's the other thing which is fear of missing something bad, like an anxiety, a more primitive anxiety within us that if we are not engaged on social media or looking at our phone often or texting often, it's not that we'll miss the party. We'll miss the emergency. You don't seem to suffer from those kind of everyday ills. Yeah, it doesn't happen that much. I have a phone, a standard. I guess if I'm working away from it, yeah, I guess it's true if there's an emergency. But this was the case for a very long time. We didn't have smartphones really relatively recently. This is 15 years ago. We were just used to this until yesterday, essentially, that there's just periods of time where you're out of touch. You're at a restaurant with someone. You're out of touch until you get back to your office. We were okay. We weren't plagued by emergencies that led to disastrous results because we couldn't hear about it right.
我们都听说过FOMO，即“错失恐惧症”。但我觉得还有另一种情况，就是害怕错过一些坏消息，这是一种更原始的焦虑感。如果我们不经常使用社交媒体、不经常查看手机或发短信，我们担心的并不是错过聚会，而是错过紧急情况。你似乎没有受到这种日常焦虑的困扰。是的，我也没有太多这种感觉。我有一部普通的手机。如果我离开手机工作，是的，可能在紧急情况发生时会有影响。但这情况已经存在很长时间了。直到最近，智能手机才普及。这大概是15年前的情况。在当时，我们习惯于暂时失去联系。如果你和某人在餐厅吃饭，直到回到办公室你才恢复联系。我们当时没事，并没有因为错过紧急信息而导致灾难性后果。
Didn't go to the movies. You're out of touch. Be a couple hours so you're in touch again. It's not something that's affected me as much. Maybe I'm working without my phone nearby. A lot of people have this response. They begin catastrophizing. What if this happens or this or that? I'm thinking, I survived before that. My parents survived without that. My grandparents survived without that. I don't worry about it as much. This doesn't upset people as much as it used to. The fact I don't use a lot of these apps or have my phone. But it really does upset people. What about this? What about that? What about this? I don't know how much of this is just maybe I'm oblivious and how much of this is people back sliding explanation for why they do need their phone. Why they do need to look at all the time. But I get a lot of it. Maybe they're upset and you don't know because you're not looking at your phone.
没有去看电影。你和世界有点脱节。过几个小时你就能重新联系上了。这对我影响不大。也许是因为我工作时手机不在身边。很多人会有这样的反应，他们会开始担心：如果发生了这个或那个怎么办？但我会想，我以前也没用这些东西不也过得好好的。我父母没用过这些，我祖父母也没有，我对此没那么担心。人们已经不像以前那样为这些事烦恼了。我不常用这些应用，也不常用手机，但这让很多人感到不安。他们总是问：那怎么办？这个怎么办？我不确定这有多少是因为我自己比较粗心，或者有多少是因为人们在找借口来解释他们为什么需要一直看手机。但我理解很多人，可能他们觉得不安，你不知道，因为你不看手机。
That's right. I'll tell you what, that's a blessing. Not knowing how upset people are at you. It's a blessing as a semi-public figure. I'll tell you that. I can comment on that, but I won't. I am on social media and I do enjoy it. I've got started posting on Instagram and then expanded to other platforms including the podcast. But there's a threshold beyond which it becomes counterproductive for sure. I think there's information there. Questions that people ask are often informative. It's sort of like ending a class and asking are there any questions. Sometimes the comments that people bring back are truly informative towards both where they might have some misunderstanding but also sometimes some really terrific ideas. So there's that.
没错。我跟你说，这是一种福气。不知道人们对你有多不满，作为一个半公众人物，这是一种福气。我是这么看的。不过，我不会具体评论。我使用社交媒体，并且很享受。我最开始在 Instagram 上发帖，然后扩展到包括播客在内的其他平台。但确实有一个门槛，超过这个门槛就会适得其反。我认为那里有很多信息。人们的问题常常很有启发性，就像上完一堂课后问有没有问题一样。有时候，大家的评论确实能提供有价值的信息，不仅指出他们可能的误解，还能带来一些非常棒的想法。所以，就有这样的情况。
But I completely agree that there's a very precarious space. I'll just relay a quick anecdote years ago. I gave a quick lecture down at Santa Clara University south of Stanford. I was talking about this issue. I recommended your book and a student came up afterwards and he said, you don't get it. That's how I was in my early 40s. He said, you don't get it. You grew up without social media and the phone. And so you've adopted it into your life. But we grew up with it. And when my phone, he's speaking for himself in the first person, when my phone loses power, I feel a physical drain within my body. And when it comes back on, I feel a lift within my body. So I'd love your thoughts on, they're not you think the phone and perhaps social media as well are in some ways an extension of our brain.
我完全同意这是一个非常不稳定的领域。我来说一个我几年前的经历。我在斯坦福南边的圣克拉拉大学做过一个简短的讲座，讨论过这个问题。我还推荐了你的书。之后有个学生走过来对我说，你不明白。这是在我四十岁出头时的情况。他说，你不懂，因为你在没有社交媒体和手机的环境中长大，所以是后天把它们融入到你的生活中的。但我们是伴随这些东西长大的。他以第一人称说道：当我的手机没电的时候，我感到身体被抽空，而当它重新开机时，我感觉身体得到了提升。我想听听你的看法，你是否认为手机和社交媒体在某种程度上成了我们大脑的延伸。
It's almost like another cortical area that contains all this information. It's a version of us that gets into notions of AI that we can talk about as well. I know you're involved in AI and writing about AI. But to me, when the phone is used in that way, it really is almost like a piece of neural machinery of sorts. Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at it. So there is the cyborg image, I suppose, right? You're extending your plug it into this neosphere. Like you have this sort of digital networked extension of information and what's going on. There's also the much more pessimistic view, which is no, no, that feeling is the feeling of a moderate behavioral addiction.
这几乎就像是另一个皮层区域，包含了所有这些信息。这是我们的一种版本，可以纳入 AI 的概念，我们可以谈论这些。我知道你也在从事与 AI 相关的工作并撰写相关内容。但对我来说，当手机被这样使用时，它真的就像是一种神经机械的一部分。 对，我的意思是，这可以从两种方式来理解。因此，可以说这是半机械人的形象，对吧？这就像是将你接入到这个信息圈中，就像你拥有一个数字化、网络化的信息扩展及其活动。还有另一种更悲观的观点，即不，那种感觉其实是一种适度行为上瘾的感觉。
Right? So you'll hear the same thing from a gambler. I really, well, when I'm away from being able to the play, right, to make my bets or do whatever, like I feel really, I feel not myself. And then when I'm when I'm around it and I can play and make some bets, play some poker, whatever, daily, I feel I feel myself that chips, right? Like they would say, so there it could be both of these things could be true. I think the moderate behavioral addiction side is is more true than than a lot of us want to admit, actually, like it does feel bad because moderate behavioral addictions build these these feedback response loops. And then you get the dopamine system going when anticipation, because what's on there is things that have been engineered that you're going to get this sort of highly engaging stimuli.
好的，那么你会听到赌徒说类似的话。我真的，当我远离赌桌、不能下注或做其他事情时，我感觉不像自己。而当我接触到这些并且可以玩、下注、打打扑克之类的，日常的时候，我会感觉自己又找回自我了。就像他们会说，筹码在手的感觉，是吧？所以这两种情况都可能是真的。我认为适度的行为成瘾比我们大多数人愿意承认的要真实得多。因为适度的行为成瘾会形成反馈循环，当你期待时，刺激了多巴胺系统，因为那里的东西被设计为让你获得高度吸引人的刺激。
And then you see the deliverance of that stimuli, right? This really nice piece of glass on a piece of metal, I'm going to press this sort of carefully, this icon whose colors have been chosen because we know it's going to hit various parts of our neural alert systems to be as engaging as possible. And I'm going to see something in there that's going to generate some sort of emotional response. So of course, when you see that thing sitting there, you want to use it. And when you can't, it's a stymied dopamine response. You're like, this, this is not good. I'm uncomfortable. And I think that's a big part of it as well because I've had this, you know, I've had this argument with some people.
然后你看到刺激的到来，对吧？这个漂亮的玻璃放在一块金属上面，我要小心地按下这个图标。这个图标的颜色是我们精心选择的，因为我们知道这样会刺激我们大脑不同的警觉系统，让它变得尽可能吸引人。我会在里面看到一些东西，引发某种情感反应。所以当然，当你看到那个东西在那儿时，你就想用它。而当你不能用的时候，这就是一个受阻的多巴胺反应。你会觉得，这不好，我不舒服。我觉得这是很重要的一部分，因为我曾就此和一些人争论过。
And by the way, I see both sides of this, like there are great advantages to what people are doing with these tools. It’s just that it's all mixed up with all these disadvantages. And it becomes very difficult. It's like the alcohol and the neighborhood bars too potent, you know? And people are going there to socialize and they're coming home at three in the morning, you know, passing out, you know, it's like the balances off. Not that there's not something good there, but the balances off. So it becomes pretty difficult to navigate.
顺便说一下，我能理解这件事的两个方面。人们使用这些工具确实有很大的好处，但同时也夹杂着很多不利因素。这让情况变得非常复杂。就像酒精和附近的酒吧一样，太过强烈。人们去那里是为了社交，但却凌晨三点才回家，甚至醉倒。这种平衡失调了。并不是说这里完全没有好的一面，而是平衡失调了，所以这变得很难把握。
So I think some of that's what's going on, especially with the younger generation that was raised on it, which is why, by the way, I think the cultural norms are going to change around this. I think we're going to think about unrestricted internet usage. Not as something that we just sort of bequeath on youth as they become 10 years old, but something that we're actually much more careful about, probably something that's going to be post-pubescence, going to make a lot more sense once you've had more brain development. Once you've had more social entrenchment, you sort of understand your identity, etc.
我认为这是正在发生的事情，尤其是在一些从小就接触互联网的年轻一代中。这也是为什么我认为与此相关的文化规范将会改变。我觉得我们将会重新思考对未成年人开放互联网的做法。等他们到了10岁，我们不再随意向他们开放互联网，而是更加谨慎地对待这件事。或许等他们进入青春期以后，等他们的脑部发育更完善，社交能力更强，对自我身份有更好的理解再接触互联网会更合理。
Because we recognize, you know, the flip side of plugging this thing into your brain is, yeah, you have access to more information, but it also pumps that into your brain. So I don't know. I lean a little bit heavier towards the pessimistic read because I know too many people, because of my books, who've really reduced the impact of these things in their lives. And they don't, on the far side of that transformation, they don't typically report a great impoverishment and experience. They don't report, um, I'm less mentally agile, the information on my fingertips is less. I'm missing out on life.
因为我们意识到，把这个东西直接接入大脑的另一面是，是的，你确实获得了更多的信息，但同时这些信息也会涌入你的大脑。所以我不太确定。我可能更倾向于悲观的看法，因为根据我写的书，我认识很多人，他们在生活中真的减少了这些东西的影响。在这场转变的另一端，他们通常并没有觉得生活因此变得多么贫乏。他们没有感到自己精神上不那么灵活，也没有觉得随时获取信息的能力减少，更没有觉得自己错过了生活的精彩。
There's typically this coming out of the fog on the other side of it where they're like, oh, this is fine. So, you know, I'm a little bit suspicious about exactly what this mechanism is. I think you're right about the um, moderate behavioral addiction piece a year ago when I was starting my lab, I had grants to write, and I found the phone pretty intrusive for that process. So I used to give the phone to somebody in my lab and announced everyone in my lab that if I asked for it back prior to 5pm that day, we give everyone in the lab.
通常情况下，人们会从迷雾中走出来，然后发现一切都很好。所以，我对这个机制到底是什么持有一点怀疑态度。我觉得你关于适度行为上瘾这一点说得很对。一年前，当我刚开始建立实验室时，我有很多资助申请要写，而手机在这个过程中让我感到很烦。所以，我习惯把手机交给实验室里的某个人，并对大家宣布，如果我当天在下午5点之前要回手机，我们就会给实验室里的每个人奖励。
I think it was a hundred dollar bill. My lab was pretty big at the time. As a junior professor, they did not do not, sorry, academic institutions, not to be named, pay us very much, despite what people might think. And, um, and it was difficult several times throughout the day or more. I was like, I really want to look at that thing, but the end of the day, um, I'll tell you that no one got paid. I got my phone back, but it's wonderful. The amount of work that you can get done when that thing is out of the room.
我记得那是一张百元钞票。当时我的实验室规模相当大。作为一名年轻教授，虽然大家可能觉得我们的收入不错，但实际上学校并没有给我们太多报酬。所以，几次困难的时候，我真的很想查看一下。不过到了最后，没有人领到报酬，我的手机也被还给我了。但是，当手机不在身边时，你会惊讶于自己能完成多少工作，真是太棒了。
It's my super power, right? I don't work that hard. In the sense that I don't do long hours. I think I'm not constitutionally suited for long hours. This was never my thing. My brain tires, right? I mean, I'm good for four, four and a half good hours a day of actually producing good stuff with my brain, probably max. But, you know, I don't use my phone that much. I don't use the internet that much and I prioritize it and a lot just gets done. It just sort of piles up over time, you know? And there's this sense of like you must be burning the midnight oil and you have all these things going on.
这是我的超能力，对吧？我并不那么努力工作。我的意思是，我不是很长时间地工作。我觉得我天生就不适合长时间工作。这从来不是我的风格。我的大脑容易累。我每天大概只会有四到四个半小时的高效产出，这可能是我的极限。但是，你知道吗，我不怎么用手机，也不怎么上网，我非常注重优先顺序，因此很多事情自然而然就完成了。随着时间的推移，这些成果慢慢积累起来。会有这样的感觉：好像你必须熬夜加班，似乎有无数的事情在进行中。
But again, people I think underestimate. And it's not the, uh, the underestimate the impact of this. It's not just the accumulation of time you spend looking on your phone. It's also this network switching cost, right? Because like the phone is very good at inducing a network switch. And that's an expensive time consuming energy consuming neuronal operation tasks, which I'm going to switch my focus of attention from this to that. Like we can't do that in two seconds, right?
我认为人们往往低估了这个问题的影响。这不仅仅是指你花在看手机上的时间累积，还包括所谓的网络切换成本。因为手机很擅长诱导这种切换。而这种行为是一个既费时又耗费精力、消耗神经系统能量的操作任务，需要把注意力从一件事情转移到另一件事情上。我们不可能在两秒钟内就完成这种切换，对吧？
That's a hard process. It takes a while. It's why when you sit down to work on something really hard, you have that feeling of for the first 15 minutes. This is terrible. You know, and then after like 15 or 20 minutes, you sort of get into the groove, I always assumed part of what's going on is it takes a while for your brain to really start marshalling. Okay. So what semantic networks do we need to start activating here? Oh, we don't need this. Let's inhibit this. We're not doing that anymore. It takes a while.
这是一个艰难的过程，需要一些时间。这也是为什么当你开始处理一件非常困难的事情时，最初的15分钟左右你会觉得很糟糕。然而，过了大约15到20分钟后，你就会逐渐进入状态。我一直认为，这部分是因为你的大脑需要时间来启动和组织。比如说，我们需要激活哪些语义网络？哦，这个不需要，让我们抑制它，我们不再做那件事了。这需要一段时间来适应。
So what happens then when you have a lot of these quick checks to social media, you're jumping in on email back and forth is you have this disaster catastrophic pile up of aborted task switches happening, right? And so it's not just the total time you're looking at, let's say email or social media. It's the 15 minute window you have to add around each of those checks in which you have this cognitive disorder. That really adds up.
当你频繁地快速查看社交媒体和频繁收发电子邮件时，会出现一种混乱的情形：任务切换中断的灾难性积累。这不仅仅是在说你花多长时间在查看电子邮件或社交媒体上，而是在每次查看时周围你都需要额外的15分钟来整理思路。这种认知混乱的积累影响很大。
And then you realize, oh, there was no time during my day in which I was more than 15 minutes away from looking at something that induced a network switch. The data I like to cite, which was looking at email and Slack checks and knowledge workers. This came from rescue time, the software company, the median average interval between checks was five minutes. It's the median and the mode was one minute in this data set.
然后你意识到，哦，我一天中没有任何一个时刻是离查看会引发网络切换的东西超过15分钟的。我喜欢引用的数据来自RescueTime这家软件公司，涉及电子邮件和Slack的查看频率以及知识工作者的情况。数据显示，查看的中位平均间隔是五分钟，而这个数据集中最常见的间隔是一分钟。
So it was like we are, we are checking all the time. That means you were never in a state then in your day where you don't have a confused cognitive space where you don't have partially you were switching to this task, but then you switch back to this task before that finished. But before you could fully lock it on this task, you look back over here.
所以，这就像是我们一直在检查。这意味着在你的一天中，你从未真正处于一个没有混乱认知状态的时刻。一方面，你可能在做一个任务，但在完成之前又切换回去做另一个任务。在你还没能完全专注于当前任务之前，你又要回过头来关注之前的任务。
And so you're spending your entire day in the state of cognitive disorder, which is going to be reduced cognitive output. So you get rid of that. I always say one of my advantages is not that I'm doing anything smarter. I'm just avoiding sometimes the dumb thing just holding slowing other people down. You get rid of that and you feel like you're on the world's best neurotropic or something like this.
所以你整天处于认知混乱的状态，这会导致认知效率降低。要把这种状态排除掉。我总是说，我的一个优势并不是我做得更聪明，而是我有时能避免做一些愚蠢的事情，这些事情通常会拖累别人。摆脱这些，你会感觉自己好像用上了世界上最好的脑力促进剂。
I'm just doing this thing and I'm doing it pretty well. Now I'm done. This didn't even take that long. So I think people underestimate what's going on here. I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor element. Elements is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
我刚刚做了一件事情，并且做得相当不错。现在我已经完成了。这甚至没有花很长时间。所以我觉得人们低估了这里发生的事情。我想稍微休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商——Element。Element 是一种电解质饮料，它拥有你所需的一切成分，而没有不需要的。
That means zero sugar and the appropriate ratios of the electrolyte, sodium, magnesium, and potassium. And that correct ratio of electrolytes is extremely important because every cell in your body, but especially your nerve cells, your neurons relies on electrolytes in order to function properly. So when you're well hydrated and you have the appropriate amount of electrolytes in your system, your mental functioning and your physical functioning is improved.
这意味着零糖分和适当比例的电解质，即钠、镁和钾。而正确的电解质比例非常重要，因为你身体的每一个细胞，尤其是神经细胞，依赖电解质来正常运作。因此，当你保持良好的水分摄入，并且体内有适量的电解质时，你的思维和身体机能都会得到改善。
I drink one packet of element dissolved in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, as well as while I exercise. And if I sweat a lot during that exercise, I often will drink a third element packet dissolved in about 32 ounces of water after I exercise. Element comes in a variety of different flavors, all of which I find really tasty.
我每天早上醒来时，会将一包元素粉末溶解在大约16到32盎司的水中饮用，锻炼时也会喝。如果锻炼时出汗很多，我通常会在锻炼后再喝一包元素粉末，溶解在大约32盎司的水中。元素有多种口味，我觉得都很好喝。
I like the citrus, I like the watermelon, I like the raspberry. Frankly, I can't pick just one. It also comes in chocolate and chocolate mint, which I find tastes best if they are put into water dissolved and then heated up. I tend to do that in the winter months because of course you don't just need hydration on hot days and in the summer and spring months, but also in the winter when the temperatures are cold and the environment tends to be dry.
我喜欢柑橘、西瓜和覆盆子。坦白说，我真的很难只选一个。此外，还有巧克力和薄荷巧克力口味，我觉得最好是放在水里溶解并加热。我通常在冬季这样做，因为不仅在炎热的夏天和春天需要补充水分，而且在气温寒冷、环境干燥的冬天也需要。
If you'd like to try element, you can go to drinkelementspeltlementi.com slash huberman to try a free sample pack. Again, that's drinkelement.com slash huberman. Yeah, we'd like to drill into the concept of context and task switching a bit more.
如果你想试试Element，你可以访问网址：drinkelement.com/huberman，来领取一个免费的样品包。再次强调，网址是drinkelement.com/huberman。好的，我们想更深入地探讨一下上下文和任务切换的概念。
I do think that the brain has something akin to a transmission system where for people that drive and have driven the amount of energy that needs to be used in order to accelerate a vehicle to get up to a higher gear. It's very different than the equal amount of increase in speed at a given gear. This is if you're not familiar with transmission, so it sounds like it sounds as if there's more facile at higher speeds.
我确实认为大脑有点类似于一个传输系统，就像在开车时，为了加速汽车以升到更高的档位，需要使用不同量的能量。这与在特定档位下提高相同速度所需的能量是不同的。如果你不熟悉汽车传动系统，听起来就像是在高速时变得更加容易。
How could it be that you're burning less fuel at higher speed? It's not exactly that way, but I think the brain has these sort of transmission systems and what you're describing with people switching back and forth and checking email and phone, etc. and back to the work that should be at hand is sort of akin to going up and down the gear system constantly, trying to arrive at a given destination and sure you might arrive, but you're going to burn far more fuel.
怎么可能在更高的速度下燃烧更少的燃料呢？其实并不是这样，但我认为大脑就像有这种类似的传输系统。你所描述的人们来回切换、检查电子邮件和手机等行为，再回到手头工作，就像是在不断地换挡，试图到达某个目的地。你或许能到达，但是你会消耗更多的燃料。
It's the least efficient way to go about it. You want to get into that deep groove. I think when we hear about flow, I feel like at least for me, that's the sort of notion of flow that I'm looking for, dropping into that deep groove, even if there's some friction within that groove of the challenge of the work that I'm doing. It's about not thinking about anything else. It's really about focus. The word flow is just a wonderfully attractive word that I think gives us the false impression that we can just drop into things like a square wave function. Sit down, pen and paper go, and there's no possible way that neural circuits could work that way.
这是一种最没效率的方法。你想进入那种深度专注的状态。我觉得，当我们谈到心流（flow）时，至少对我来说，这就是我所追求的心流状态——即使在工作挑战的过程中，这个状态中也可能会有一些摩擦。关键在于不去想其他事情，而是完全专注。"心流"这个词非常吸引人，它给我们一种错觉，仿佛可以像方波函数那样瞬间进入状态：坐下、拿起笔和纸，然后迅速进入。然而，大脑的神经回路并不是这样工作的。
No, let's invent a term. You tell me it's a term, it makes sense. I'm a bit of an interest on the fly, but neuro-semantic coherence. This is going to be my alternative term for flow when you're working on something hard. It's not that you're in an actual flow state where you lose track of what you're doing. You're concentrating really hard, but what I'm saying, neuro-semantic coherence is you get to this place where the relevant semantic neural networks are all those that are activated or all relevant to what you're doing. You've over time inhibited most of the unrelated networks that were fired up before.
不，我们来创造一个新术语。你告诉我这是个术语，它是有意义的。我随便想到一个，有点像“神经语义一致性”。当你在努力工作时，这将是我用来替代“心流”的术语。并不是说你真的进入了那种忘记自己在做什么的心流状态。你是在非常专注地思考，我说的“神经语义一致性”是指你达到了这样一种状态：与你正在做的事情相关的语义神经网络都被激活了，而且那些无关的网络经过一段时间大多已经被抑制了。
You get in this sense of it's hard, maybe I'm not losing track of time, but I'm all focused on this. I'm grappling with the bear here, the math equation, the book chapter, whatever it is. It's something different than flow, but it's also different than Linda Stone had the term partial continuous attention, which is what your cognitive disaster of I'm constantly networks switching back and forth. We'll call it neuro-semantic coherence. I'm going to coin that term because you have this coherence of the semantic neural networks on what you're doing, and that's the feeling of I'm getting after this hard problem.
在这种情况下，你会感受到一种困难，不是说我失去时间感，而是我全神贯注于眼前的事情。我正在克服眼前的困难，例如数学问题、书的章节等等。这种状态不同于“心流”，但也不同于琳达·斯通提出的“部分持续注意”，即不断地在不同事情之间切换所带来的认知混乱。我称之为“神经语义一致性”，因为你在处理这件事时，你的大脑语义网络保持一致，这种感觉就是我正在解决这个难题的体验。
It might be really hard to do. I know the feeling of trying to solve a math proof for me, for example, could be so difficult. Because what does it actually feel like in your head when you're solving a math proof? It's a lot of you hold this here and then you try to get to the next step by doing this and it doesn't work. You have to keep holding this here. It takes a lot of concentration. Let me try this. That didn't work either, but this looked promising. Now I need to go back and in my mind's eye, update this setup. Now let me try this.
这可能会真的很难。我知道这种感觉，比如说对我来说，尝试解决一个数学证明就非常困难。因为当你在脑海中解决一个数学证明时，究竟是什么感觉呢？这过程就像是你要先把这个步骤记住，然后尝试通过其他步骤进入下一步，但往往行不通。你得持续把其中一个步骤记在脑海中，这需要高度集中精力。再试试这个，结果也不行，但这个方法看起来有点希望。现在我需要回到脑海中，调整一下这个设定。再试一下这个方法。
It's a lot of holding things in your working memory and keeping them loaded while you try an extension and then evaluating how that worked without. It requires internal concentration, which isn't pleasant, but in neuro-semantic coherence, it's all this happening in your world. Maybe that's what we should be pitching what people should be looking for. Forget Flow, but also remember this default where you're the rescue time data set participants, checking email once every five minutes, that's cognitive nonsense. That's crazy.
这需要在你的工作记忆中保持很多信息，并在你尝试扩展的时候将它们加载进去，然后在没有这些信息的情况下评估效果。这需要内部的专注力，虽然不太舒服，但在神经语义的一致性中，这一切都在你的世界里发生。也许这就是我们应该推销给人们关注的东西。忘记所谓的“心流”，也要记住这种默认状态——比如你每五分钟查看一次邮件，这就是认知混乱，这太疯狂了。
That's like you're trying to play football and you're covering over one of your eyes and wearing a 50-pound rucksack on. You're just like handicapping your abilities here for no reason. What's in between is this idea and that requires focus or requires deep work. We're playing football and then every three downs or so, running into the stands and having a conversation, trying to work out something challenging with your spouse, where they're going back and trying to play. That's a totally different play set.
这就好比你在试图踢足球，却用一只手遮住一只眼睛，还背着一个重50磅的背包。这样做就像是在无缘无故地限制自己的能力。在此之间，需要的是专注和深入的思考。我们在踢足球，却每三次停下就跑到看台上，与配偶讨论一些复杂的问题，然后再返回继续踢。这就是完全不同的“玩法”了。
Right. Embrace of throwing too many analogies and stories, I'll just briefly say I went and saw the play in New York with my sister this year. I think it was Harry Potter and the Curse Child or something like that. I didn't really enjoy the play that much, but the set stuff was amazing and they have this magic library. I think it's very relevant here, where essentially the book that you open has a certain topic. I don't know, it's spells or something is Harry Potter. Again, fun show, but great set stuff didn't really resonate with me too much in any event.
好的，为了避免使用太多的比喻和故事，我就简单说吧：今年我和我的妹妹去纽约看了一场戏。我想那出戏是《哈利·波特与被诅咒的孩子》还是什么的。我不是很喜欢这个戏，但舞台布景非常棒，他们还有一个神奇的图书馆。我觉得这点和我们这儿非常相关，就是你打开的书会有一个特定的主题。我不太确定，是咒语还是什么，因为是哈利·波特嘛。总之，这是一场有趣的表演，但舞台布景比整场戏给我留下的印象更深刻。
And then the books around it change their topic that are related to that central book. And then if you look at one particular thing, like maybe it's potions or something I'm making this up. And then all of a sudden the books around it change. They become either more specific. There might be a distant but related idea that could lend itself to creativity. So sort of that's the way the brain works in cognition is that we get into a frame of certain discussion or certain theme and the books on the shelf change according to their relatedness based on memory of past, what's going on now in plans for the future.
然后，与中心书籍相关的那些书的主题也会随之改变。如果你关注某个特定主题，比如魔药之类的，我只是随意举个例子，周围的书籍就会突然改变，它们会变得更加具体。可能还有一些虽稍显遥远但有关联的想法，可以激发创造力。大脑在认知方面的工作方式大致如此：我们进入某个讨论框架或主题时，书架上的书籍会根据记忆、当下发生的事情以及对未来的计划，按照相关性进行变化。
I think anytime we look at we change context and we look at a raccoon video on Instagram or our calendar and oh there's that thing. The books become very scattered. So when we return to it, there's a lot more friction, a lot more work or neural energy required to get back into that narrow states of cognition. Just that exactly explains sort of my experience in the way I think about it. Yeah, because it takes time to load up the sort of relevant, the secondary, interciary, semantic ideas. And now they're there. So like you can pull from them. And then as you shift, you have to sort of shift this whole thing around. And that takes a lot of concentration.
我认为每当我们切换环境，比如看Instagram上的浣熊视频或查看日历，都会让我们的注意力变得分散。这样一来，当我们再次回到读书时，就需要花费更多的精力和神经能量来重新进入那种专注的状态。这种情况正好解释了我的体验和看法。因为需要一些时间来重新加载相关的记忆和想法，而一旦加载完成后，我们可以从中汲取信息。但是，当我们转换注意力时，就需要重新调整整个思路，这需要高度的专注力。
I mean I wrote this this article once that got me a little bit of trouble, not trouble, mild trouble. But it was it was called for the Chronicle Higher Education. And the title they gave it was is email making professor stupid, which wasn't my title. You basically called everyone of your colleagues stupid. I got all checking email. The dean at the time did call me in for lunch. But actually he was here's the thing. He was like, hey this is real. I agree with this.
我曾经写过一篇文章，有一点点让我陷入麻烦，其实也算不上麻烦，只是轻微的困扰。那篇文章是为《高等教育纪事报》写的，编辑给文章起的标题是《电子邮件是否让教授变得愚蠢》，这其实不是我起的标题。基本上，你等于是说每一个同事都因为查收邮件而变得愚蠢。时任院长确实找我一起吃午饭谈这事，但有趣的是，他其实同意文章的观点，他表示：“这很真实，我同意这样说法。”
But what I was arguing actually in that article essentially was what do we do at a university is personally what we're supposed to be doing is trying to teach what the life of the mind is and how that works. And we've kind of forgotten that. So we should maybe think about like at universities, we need to be explicitly not just teaching how to think, but also modeling the life of the mind at the at the highest level.
在那篇文章中，我主要讨论的是，我们在大学里究竟在做什么。我们应该做的是教导学生关于思维生活的概念以及其运作方式。但我们似乎已经忘记了这一点。因此，我们或许应该认真考虑，在大学里，我们不仅要教学生如何思考，还要在最高层次上示范什么是充盈的思维生活。
And so this idea that we just allow the the professor's area to be drowned in emails and tasks and be as distracted. You know, it's the main war that every research professor has is how do I how do I fight the admin overload until I become famous enough to get an assistant, right? Like this is the big problem. And I was making this proposal of university should be the citadel's a concentration. It's if you want to get the best academics in the world to university, just tell them here's at the top of our contract. You will not be assigned an email address.
这个观点是，我们不应该让教授的工作区域被大量的电子邮件和任务淹没，使他们分心。每位研究教授面临的主要挑战就是如何对抗管理事务过多的问题，直到他们足够有名声后才能有助理来帮忙。这是一个大问题。我提出了一个建议，大学应该成为专注的堡垒。如果你想吸引世界上最顶尖的学者来大学任教，只需告诉他们，我们的合同中最重要的一条是：你将不会被分配电子邮箱地址。
Like you're going to get Nobel laureates coming from, you know, all over the country to come to this place. And so I was making this argument. We should think a lot more about thinking. We should talk more about it. We should model it exactly to type of things you're talking about. But we don't. It's much more content's focus. But really, this should be something more that we we get into specifically like this is how you actually use the mind to produce innovative interesting high value new cognitive artifacts.
就像是你会看到诺贝尔奖得主从全国各地来到这个地方。因此，我提出这个观点：我们应该更多地思考"思考"这个过程，我们应该更多地讨论这个问题。我们应该按照您所谈论的那些类型进行具体的研究和实践，但我们并没有这样做。现在的重点更多在于内容本身。但实际上，我们应该更深入地探讨如何真正运用大脑去创造创新的、有趣的、高价值的新认知成果。
This is a very hard thing we're asking you to do. But you can apprentice here because this is what we do and we've mastered. We're going to teach you how to do it. But we never have that sort of meta conversation, sort of meta cognition conversation. I've always thought that'd be important. I think you'd have much better outcomes. If that's part of what you learned at the university was how to take the thing in your head and really put it to work, you know, really extract out of it as capabilities.
我们正在要求你做一件非常困难的事情。但是你可以在这里作学徒，因为这是我们擅长并已掌握的技能。我们会教你怎么去做。不过，我们从未进行过那种元对话或者元认知的对话。我一直认为这很重要。我想，如果大学教学的一部分内容是教你如何把脑海中的想法真正付诸实践，真正将其转化为能力，结果会更好。
Or even high school or even elementary school level. I agree. Yeah. You have kids. Yeah. And do they have smartphones? No. Yeah. How do they feel about that? Well, I mean, they're not old enough yet that it's a real problem. But they're not going to be happy with me probably soon. Hate me now. Love me later is my mother used to say.
甚至是高中生，甚至是小学水平。我同意。嗯，你有孩子吗？对。那他们有智能手机吗？没有。哦，那他们对此有什么感受？嗯，我的意思是，他们还没有到真正需要手机的年龄。但他们可能不久就会对我不满了。正如我妈妈曾说过，“现在讨厌我，以后就会感谢我。”
Basically, because I'm convinced having spent some time thinking about this, writing about this, doing some journalism on this, talking to a lot of the experts that like I think where we're going to end up, where all the the arrows from the relevant social psych research, which I've been following this research since, you know, 2017, this is 2017 is roughly when you see the first warning signs going up that we need to worry about the potential mental health impacts of these tools, especially social media smartphones on young people.
基本上，因为我投入了一些时间思考这个问题，也写了一些关于这个主题的文章，做了一些相关的新闻报道，并与许多专家进行了交流，所以我相信，我们最终会到达的那个点，就是所有社会心理学研究的指向。我自2017年以来一直在关注这些研究，2017年大约是我们第一次看到需要担心这些工具可能对心理健康带来影响的警告出现的时候，特别是社交媒体和智能手机对年轻人的影响。
And I, you can track this, right? I have a talk. I actually gave them my kids school. I'm not happy about this. Where I track how this research evolved. And you know, like any literature, it's contentious at first. And then you see, you begin to see a conciliance between different lines of evidence. And I think we're everything now in the last couple of years is starting to come together.
我给你翻译成中文，并尽量做到易读：
你可以跟踪这个，对吧？我有一个演讲。我实际上在我孩子的学校做了这个演讲。我对此并不满意。在演讲中，我跟踪了这项研究的发展历程。你知道的，就像任何学术研究一样，最初总是充满争议。但后来，你会开始看到不同证据线条之间的融合。我觉得在过去几年里，所有事情开始逐渐形成一个整体。
This idea of we don't really know if this is bad or not, I think that's just an old take. The research has moved past that. And I think where we're we're landing on is unrestricted internet use pre-puberty is risky. And like the new standard is going to be post-puberty is probably the right time to be given a device to give you unrestricted access.
这种 "我们不知道这是否不好" 的观点，我认为已经过时了。研究已经超越了这个阶段。我认为，我们现在的结论是，在青春期前不加限制地使用互联网是有风险的。而新的标准可能是，青春期后才是给一个可以不限量访问设备的合适时间。
We're talking like 16 is probably the appropriate age. So this does not make me popular at the middle school. Where are my son's, my oldest son's about to go. I think in two or three years, that's just going to be common sense. This is the direction I see the research literature and the advocacy going. And I think there's a solid ground for this.
我们认为16岁可能是合适的年龄。所以，我的观点在初中并不受欢迎，因为我的大儿子快要上初中了。 我想两三年后，这会成为常识。这是我在研究文献和倡导中看到的发展方向，而且我认为这样做有充分的理由。
Because you're a computer scientist, I can ask this question. What about video games? I'm not a big consumer of video games. It's been years since I've played one. In fact, but video games are so very different than smartphones and other technologies because they seem to put at least the kids I've observed playing them and adults into a very narrow trench of attention. Yeah.
因为你是计算机科学家，所以我可以问这个问题。那么，电子游戏呢？我不是一个电子游戏的重度玩家，事实上已经有很多年没有玩过了。不过，我观察到电子游戏与智能手机和其他技术非常不同，因为它们似乎让我见过的小孩和成年人都变得注意力非常集中。是的。
I mean, there are definitely issues with it. I mean, look, I'm not a social psychologist. I just sort of play one in my articles. But I've looked into this literature a lot. There's a bit of a gendered breakdown that has a lot of overlaps where when they're looking at potential harms of these technologies, young adolescents, pre-adolescent young adolescents, you tend to see social media that be more a signal for cognitive distress for young women and girls and the video games to actually be the bigger culprit for young men and boys.
我的意思是，这里确实存在一些问题。我的意思是，你看，我并不是社会心理学家，我只是有点像在我的文章中扮演这个角色。但是，我确实对这方面的文献研究过很多。研究中显示出一些与性别相关的差异，它们有很多重叠之处。在探讨这些技术潜在危害时，常常观察到社交媒体对年轻女性和女孩来说更容易引发认知困扰，而对年轻男性和男孩而言，电子游戏反倒是更大的罪魁祸首。
There is a bit of a difference here because with the social media impact, the content of what's happening matters in this picture. What I'm seeing, the engagement I'm having, how this impacts my social life, this is part of the mental distress. With video games, it seems to be more an impact of just disharmonious passion and obsession. It's the time it takes. Because the games can be incredibly addictive.
在这里有一点不同，因为社交媒体的影响中，内容本身很重要。看到的信息、参与的互动以及这些对社交生活的影响，都是心理压力的一部分。而对于电子游戏，它们的影响似乎更多是来自于不和谐的热情和痴迷。主要是因为这些游戏非常容易上瘾，会占用很多时间。
The problem that young men are having are just they're playing it all the time. I'm staying up late because I have an iPad in my room and I'm 14 and I'm going to play Fortnite until three in the morning because my brain cannot handle what you're giving me here. It's less of a content concern than it is just a time concern. That seems more solvable to me.
年轻男性面临的问题主要是他们一直在玩游戏。我晚上熬夜，因为我房间里有台iPad，而我才14岁，我会玩《堡垒之夜》直到凌晨三点，因为我的大脑不能处理你们给我的东西。与其说这是内容的问题，不如说是时间问题。这对我来说似乎更容易解决。
My solution with my own kids, I don't mind video games, I'm a computer scientist, but I said nothing to its online. Nothing that was free. If it was free, that means their business model involves getting you to play it all the time so you can upcharge or whatever. They have Nintendo switches. I like Nintendo. Nintendo Switch, here's a $60 L of the game that someone spent five years making or whatever.
我对我自己孩子的解决方案是这样的：我不反对电子游戏，我本身就是个计算机科学家，但我不允许他们玩任何在线游戏，尤其是免费的。如果游戏是免费的，那就意味着他们的商业模式涉及让你一直玩下去，以便在之后进行收费或使用其他盈利手段。他们有任天堂Switch，我喜欢任天堂。比如任天堂Switch上有那些花费五年时间制作的60美元的游戏，我觉得挺好。
You can only play those games so long at a time before you're tired, you come back to it. They don't have an addictive response to it. If they get an iPad with a game on it, they'll just play that till their eyes bleed because those are meant to be addictive. So I'm wary about video games, but there it's all just a usage game. So you stick away from the more addictive games.
你玩那些游戏只能有一段时间，因为会感到疲倦，然后才会回去继续玩。这些游戏不会让人上瘾。但是如果他们拿到一个装了游戏的iPad，他们可能会玩到眼睛疼，因为这些游戏设计就是为了让人上瘾。所以我对视频游戏有些警惕，但这其实就是一个使用频率的问题。因此，你要远离那些更容易上瘾的游戏。
It's a much easier problem to solve, I think, than the social media issue. Earlier you talked about books. I still read hardcover and paperback books. What are your thoughts on audio books and learning by way of audio book versus paper in front of you flipping a physical device or Kindles? I don't know if there's any real research on this. I've seen a little bit, but I'm curious what you've encountered and what your thoughts are as well.
我认为这个问题比社交媒体的问题要容易解决得多。你之前谈到了书。我现在还在读精装和平装书。你怎么看待有声书以及通过有声书学习和读纸质书或使用Kindle之间的差别呢？我不知道有没有相关的研究。我只看到过一点点这方面的信息，但我很好奇你遇到过什么样的看法，你自己有什么想法。
You could speculate. Yeah, I'll tell you personally, I can only do fiction in audio books. Because when I'm in a nonfiction experience, I'm just very used to constantly looking for connections and ideas. So I have to be able to slow down and then speed up and then go back to something I just read. So I really have a distressing experience trying to listen to nonfiction audio books.
你可以猜测一下。是的，我个人来说，我只能听小说类的有声书。因为当我听非虚构类作品时，我总是习惯于不断寻找联系和想法。所以我需要能够在阅读时时而放慢速度，时而加快速度，还能回过头去看刚刚读过的内容。因此，我在尝试听非虚构类有声书时感觉非常不舒服。
Fictions fine. That's great. I'll put a thriller on it, you know, Audible. Great. I'll listen through it. And I think some of this might be particular to my engagement with books, which is I'm a writer and a thinker. So I'm constantly looking for ideas. And so I might have a different engagement with a nonfiction book and someone, you know, just listening to one of my books, but I can only do fiction on audio.
小说很好。太好了。我会在Audible上找一本惊悚小说。很好，我会听的。我想这可能与我对书籍的参与方式有关，因为我是个作家和思想家，所以我一直在寻找灵感。因此，我对非虚构类书籍的参与方式可能会与仅仅听我的书的人不同，但我只能听小说的有声书。
That makes sense. Thinking about what works for me and what doesn't, I agree. I love stories and fiction by audio book. You ideally consumed on a long drive or a hike. But nonfiction requires that I take notes and see things in their kind of respective spatial layout.
这很有道理。考虑一下哪些对我有效，哪些无效，我同意。 我喜欢通过有声书听故事和小说，尤其是在长途驾驶或徒步旅行时听。但对于非小说类书籍，我需要记笔记，并看到它们在各自的空间布局中的样子。
And yeah, in your most recent book, you describe this concept of pseudo productivity. Is pseudo productivity a general term to refer to some of the things we've already talked about, this task-witching, context-switching, or pseudo productivity, something that includes other categories of limiting ourselves as well?
是的，在您最近的书中，您描述了“伪生产力”这个概念。伪生产力是一个通用术语，用来指代我们已经讨论过的一些事情，比如任务切换和环境切换，还是说伪生产力也包含了其他限制我们效率的类别呢？
I mean, I think it's more specific than that, right? So to me, sort of productivity was the answer that we came up with in knowledge work to a real dilemma, which is that's a sector, you know, using your brain primarily to create value. That's a sector that emerged as a major part of the economy in roughly the mid-20th century. When that emerged, all the definitions of productivity that we had were inspired from agriculture and industry, right? So in agriculture, we can have ratios. Bushels of corn, per whatever acres of land under cultivation, in industrial manufacturing we have ratios, model teas per input labor hour. So you could just measure these things. We also had clearly defined systems of production.
我觉得，这其实比简单的理解要更具体一些。对我来说，所谓的"生产力"是我们在知识工作中找到的答案，它解决了一个真正的难题。知识工作主要是通过大脑来创造价值，这一领域大约在20世纪中期成为经济的重要组成部分。那时，我们对生产力的定义主要借鉴了农业和工业的模式。在农业中，我们可以用比率来量化，比如每多少亩土地生产多少蒲式耳的玉米；在工业制造中，我们也有比率，比如每小时劳动生产多少辆T型车。因此，这些都是可以测量的。同样，我们在这些领域中也有明确的生产系统。
So you could then say, if I change this about the system of production, what happens to this number, and you could do gradient descent, right? Okay, I do this. That number goes down. Let's not do that. But I make this change, it goes up. That's a better way of building it. Like this was the dominant way of thinking about productivity since basically Adam Smith. The knowledge work arises. That doesn't work, right? Because I'm working on whatever, five different things. It's different than what you are working on. How I'm managing my work is entirely off-uscated, right? In knowledge work, organizational ideas is entirely left up to the individual, how you manage your work and your workload and collaboration. That's up to you. That's all off-uscated. There's no number to measure. There's no system to improve.
你可以这样说，如果我改变生产系统里的某个部分，会对这个数值产生什么影响，你可以进行梯度下降，对吧？好，我这样做，这个数值降低了，那就不要这样做。但如果我做出这个改变，数值上升了，这就是更好的建设方式。从基本上亚当·斯密以来，这种思维方式一直主导着对生产力的看法。但是在知识型工作中，这种方式行不通。我可能同时在做五件不同的事情，这和你正在做的事情不同。我如何管理我的工作完全是模糊的。在知识型工作中，如何组织全靠个人决定，你怎样管理自己的工作、工作负荷和合作。那完全取决于你自己。这一切都是模糊的，没有数字可以衡量，没有系统可以改进。
So I think it was a real quandary. My argument is what essentially the management class came up with is shooter productivity, which is okay, and the absence of being able to be quantitative about this, we will use visible activity as a proxy for useful effort. So that's it. We see you doing things that's better than not. The more we see you doing the better, I call that shooter productivity. And I think that's implicitly how we've been organizing the management of knowledge work, labor, since the 1950s. And we say visibility at people doing things. This is the conflating of busyness with actual productivity. Yes.
我认为这确实是一个难题。我的观点是，管理层基本上提出了一个概念，叫做"表面生产力"，这意味着在无法对工作进行量化的情况下，我们将以可见的活动作为有用努力的替代指标。就是这样：我们看到你在做事情，这总比什么都不做好。我们看到你做的事情越多，效果就越好，我称之为表面生产力。我认为自1950年代以来，这就是我们在知识工作管理中默默推行的方式。我们关注人们在做什么，这实际上是把忙碌与真正的生产力混为一谈。是的。
And so the problem came when we had this a general way of measuring, approximating productive effort, which wasn't very good, but whatever, right? I mean, I want to see you're at the office and you're doing things. The problem was the front office IT revolution. Right? Because I'm essentially a technocratic. I see everything through the lens of technology and my writing. We got computers, we got networks, we got email. Souter productivity can't be sustainable in that context, because now with something like email and then later tools like Slack, I can demonstrate effort at a very fine grain, right?
问题出现了，当我们有了一种通用的方法来衡量和近似生产努力时，这种方法并不是很有效，但无所谓，对吧？我的意思是，我希望看到你在办公室里忙碌。问题在于前台办公室的IT革命。因为我本质上是一个技术官僚，我通过技术的视角来看待一切，包括我的写作。我们有了电脑，有了网络，有了电子邮件。在这种情况下，想保持表面上的生产力是难以持续的，因为现在有了像电子邮件这样的工具，后来又有了像Slack这样的工具，我可以在极其细微的层面上展示我的努力。
Because I can send an email, respond to this, jump onto a Slack conversation. I can now do that at a very fine grain level and essentially everywhere and anywhere. All throughout my day, I can be demonstrating labor at home. I can be demonstrating labor because we have mobile computing. We get the smartphone revolution. So there's now an ability to constantly be demonstrating effort at all points of our day. And that's where I think the wheels came off the bus, right? And led to this point that got worse and worse starting the early 2000s and hit ahead in the pandemic of knowledge worker burnout, knowledge worker exhaustion and nihilism of like what's going on with my job?
因为我可以发送电子邮件、回复消息、参与Slack的对话。我现在可以在非常细微的层面上做到这些，并且随时随地都能这样做。在我一天中的任何时间，我都能在家中展示工作。由于移动计算技术和智能手机革命，我可以在任何时候展示自己的努力。这就是我觉得问题开始出现的地方。自2000年代初以来，这种现象越来越严重，并在疫情期间达到了顶峰，导致知识工作者的倦怠、疲惫和对工作意义的迷茫。
Like all I do is zoom all day. What's happening? I think that's shooter productivity plus front office IT revolution. They did not play nice together. And you can see this by the way, if you look even at productivity books, you see this huge shift that happens early 90s versus early 2000s. It's like a completely shift in tone, right? Early 90s, it's Stephen Covey is very optimistic. It's like how are we going to self-actualize and like carefully choose the most meaningful activities to fulfill all of our dreams for all of our roles? Early 2000s, now we have email, you have David Allen. It's like, oh my god, we're so overwhelmed with task.
就像我整天都在拼命地视频会议似的。到底发生了什么？我觉得这是个人生产力和办公室IT革命的结合，但它们相互之间合作得并不好。如果你去看一些关于生产力的书，你会发现从90年代早期到2000年代早期有一个巨大的变化。这个变化简直是完全不同的风格，90年代早期，像是史蒂芬·科维，非常乐观，谈论我们如何实现自我，精心选择最有意义的活动来实现我们所有角色的梦想。而到了2000年代早期，有了电子邮件，戴维·艾伦出现，是那种“天啊，我们被任务压得喘不过气”的感觉。
All we can hope for is like these little moments of zen in the day. If we can just automate how we're just churning through these widgets, at least we can find some cognitive piece. What happened in those 10 years was the front office IT revolution. And now we just felt like we had to constantly be demonstrating that visible effort. So you know, I think that's where we got into the problem. Souter productivity plus technology. Recently, my podcast team was in Australia and my producer and close friend here, Rob Moore, instructed all of us to get rid of social media on our phones, except one guy who would post our weekly episodes announcements.
我们所能期望的，就是在一天中找到一些宁静的片刻。如果我们能够实现自动化，轻松应对日常事务，至少可以获得一些心灵的平静。在过去的十年里，我们经历了前台办公室的IT革命。现在，我们感觉需要不断展示明显的努力。我认为这正是问题的根源：过度追求生产力与技术的结合。最近，我的播客团队去了澳大利亚，我的制作人兼好友Rob Moore建议我们都删除手机上的社交媒体应用，只留下一个人负责发布每周更新的节目信息。
And it was pretty brutal at first. And then coming back to social media, as it actually turned out to be more challenging, you really experienced the friction coming back the other way. And then one experiences the lack of friction and that's where it gets scary. It's so interesting the way that the brain can adapt. The friction leaving something behind, the friction coming back to it. And I think for people listening to this, I raise this because I think, of course, many people listening are, you know, have work that they really need to focus on. They may be having issues with productivity and burnout, etc.
一开始，这个过程相当艰难。而当我再次回到社交媒体时，发现实际上比想象中更加具有挑战性，真正感受到了重返时的阻力。然而，当你不再遇到这些阻力时，那才是真正让人感到害怕的地方。大脑适应能力的变化真的很有趣——无论是离开时的阻力，还是重返时的阻力。我提到这些，是因为我觉得很多正在收听的朋友都有需要专心投入的工作，并可能在处理生产力和倦怠等问题。
I think a lot of people use the phone and social media because it fills their life. You know, it provides some enrichment. And they aren't necessarily committed to specific projects. But I guess through the lens of the, let's just call it the Cal New Portee and Lens, one might argue that those people almost certainly have untapped creativity, untapped resources within them that they don't yet know about because they're essentially using that energy elsewhere.
我认为很多人使用手机和社交媒体是为了填补生活中的空虚，它为他们的生活提供了一些丰富感。然而，他们可能并没有真正投入到具体的项目中。不过，从“卡尔·纽波特视角”来看，有人可能会说，这些人肯定有尚未开发的创造力和内在资源，他们自己还没有意识到，因为他们的精力基本上被用在了别的地方。
Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of people, it's papering over the void. You have this void in your life because there's unmet potential, unmet interest, living in misalignment with the things you care about. I mean, a lot of people, this is the classic sort of catastrophe of life. Social media, and there's before this, it was other things. There was other intoxicants or other sorts of distractions. It's a way for some people of essentially putting a screen over that gaping void. And it just makes it bearable enough that you can kind of go on with life. And so it is true.
是啊，我觉得对很多人来说，这就像是在掩盖内心的空虚。你生活中有一个空洞，因为你有未实现的潜力和兴趣，你的生活与所关心的事情不一致。对很多人来说，这就是典型的人生悲剧。在社交媒体之前，还有其他事物，比如其他让人沉迷或分心的东西。这些东西对于某些人来说，就像是在那个巨大的空洞上加了一层遮挡物。它让生活变得勉强可以忍受，这样你就可以继续过下去。所以这确实是真的。
If you just rip it out, you see the void. And that's really difficult, right? I mean, because I did this experiment for one of my books. I ran an experiment with 1600 people and they all turned off all their social media for 30 days. 30 days. 30 days, right? These are young people, old people. A whole mix. A whole mix. Right? Not just university students. I recruited them from my newsletter readership. So they weren't university students. And it wasn't formal research. It was, you know, I put out the call, right? So this is not randomly sampled, right? But I put out the call and I said, here, I'm going to walk you walk you through this.
如果你只是直接把它拔掉，你会看到空虚。这确实很困难，对吧？我是说，因为我为我的一本书做了这个实验。我进行了一项实验，有1600人参与，他们都关闭了所有社交媒体，持续30天。30天。30天，对吧？这些人里既有年轻人，也有老年人。是一个混合的群体。对吧？不仅仅是大学生。我是从我的通讯订阅者中招募他们的。所以他们不是大学生。这也不是正式的研究，而是，我发出了邀请。所以这不是随机抽样的，但我发出了邀请，说，我会带领你们完成这个过程。
And then I got a lot of information back. So people reported back how it went. And this was like the number one thing I heard was it's really hard at first, right? And so who were the people that succeeded for 30 days versus those who did it? The ones who didn't succeed it tended to just try to white knuckle it. Just be like, I don't like how much I'm using social media. I'm just going to stop because it's bad. And I don't want to do a bad thing. I'm just going to like, hold on to the table with white knuckles. They want it to make it 30 days.
然后我收到了大量的信息反馈。人们告诉我他们的经历。最常听到的一点就是，一开始真的很难。那么，哪些人在30天内坚持下来了，哪些人没有？那些没能坚持下来的人往往是硬撑着干。他们可能只是觉得自己用社交媒体太多了，想戒掉，因为觉得不好。他们就像紧握桌子一样硬撑着，希望能坚持30天。
The people who did succeed followed my advice to incredibly aggressively pursue alternatives in those 30 days. So it's like, go learn new hobbies, join things right away. Get really structured about your day. Get into exercise again, learn how to knit again. A lot of people said, oh, I learned about, I forgot how fun libraries were. Like you can go into this building and like all the books are free. And you could just grab whatever. And it's okay if you don't like the book because you didn't have to pay for it.
那些成功的人按照我的建议，在那30天里非常积极地追求不同的选择。他们立即去学习新爱好、参加各种活动。对自己的日常生活进行结构化管理，重新开始锻炼，再次学习编织。很多人说，哦，我差点忘了图书馆有多有趣。你可以走进这座建筑，所有的书都是免费的，你可以随便借阅。如果不喜欢这本书也没关系，因为你不需要买单。
I'm going out with friends again. I'm okay. Every week I'm going to have, you know, we're going to have drinks with this person and every Thursday morning, I'm going to go running with this person. The people who aggressively tried to put in place a more positive alternative through self-reflection experimentation, they lasted to 30 days and beyond. Right. And so then I came to realize like, oh, I see what's happening here is you have these unmet needs.
我要再次和朋友们出去。我很好。我们每周都会有，你懂的，我们会和这个人一起喝酒，每个星期四早上，我会和那个人一起去跑步。那些积极尝试通过自我反思和实验来实施更积极选择的人，他们坚持了30天甚至更久。于是我意识到，哦，我明白这里发生了什么，你有这些未满足的需求。
These tools can give you sort of a, a simulacrum of meeting them. I need, I'm a social bean. I need to be connected to people. Well, I'm texting and like doing comments on social media. It sort of touches that a little bit just enough that you don't feel hopelessly lonely. But it's not really fulfilling that. I have a need to like see my intentions made manifest concretely in the world. Humans want to do this. Well, I'm, you know, posting these things and people are responding.
这些工具能给你一种像是见面一样的感受。我是一个爱社交的人，我需要和人们保持联系。虽然我在发短信和社交媒体上留言，这在某种程度上满足了一点这种需求，让我不至于感到无望地孤独，但这并不能真正满足我。我需要看到自己的意图在现实世界中得以实现。人类都有这种需求。当我发布这些东西的时候，人们在做出回应。
It's sort of this simulacrum of real creation. So it's like kind of satisfying that just enough that it's not just intolerable, right? And so what happens is if you remove that, you have to actually fill those things the right way. So now I'm not socializing on social media, but I'm going out of my way to sacrifice time and attention on behalf of other people. I'm feeling the social void in the right way. Now I don't really feel like I need to go back. I'm actually making my intentions manifest. I'm learning skills and building things. Now the sort of pseudo construction and collective attention economy of social media post this and you'll like it. I'm like this. I don't need that anymore to fill that void. So it's like you have to fill the void first.
这有点像对真实创造的模仿。因此，它让人感到刚好足够满意，不至于无法忍受。问题是，如果你摆脱这种模仿，就需要用正确的方式来填补这些东西。现在我不再在社交媒体上“社交”，而是特意花时间和精力为他人付出。我在用正确的方式填补社交空缺。现在我不觉得需要再回去。我正在实现自己的意图，学习新技能和建造事物。之前那种在社交媒体上发帖、获得点赞的所谓“伪造”构造和集体注意经济，对我来说已经不再需要来填补空虚。所以，你首先得填补那个空虚。
So, you know, five years ago I wrote a book that was about reforming this part of your life. And a lot of the book was had nothing to do with technology, but about how to actually just rebuild parts of your life. And on my podcast, honestly, like one of the big topics we talk about, which is crazy that I'm a technologist and I write about trying to find focus in a distracted world is this thing we call the deep life, which is just straight up building a meaningful life 101. And it's like crazy that my podcast is talking about it. But on the other hand, it's not because my it's the podcast people go to when they're fed up with the digital world.
所以，你知道，五年前我写了一本书，内容是关于如何改变生活中的某些部分。书中很大一部分与技术无关，而是关于如何真正重建生活中的一些部分。在我的播客中，说实话，我们常常讨论的一个重要话题是“深度生活”，这很奇怪，因为我是一个技术专家，却在撰写关于如何在一个充满干扰的世界中找到专注的内容。但同时这也不足为奇，因为我的播客是人们在对数字世界感到厌倦时会选择的地方。这个“深度生活”实际上就是关于如何构建有意义的生活的基础课程。
And it turns out if you don't get the analog world working right for you, you need something to avoid starting to avoid. And the digital world will do that well enough. It's like just good enough to keep life tolerable. There's a lot of discussion nowadays about ADHD attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Sometimes minus the H minus the hyperactivity. A lot of kids have true clinically diagnosed ADHD. So we want to be sensitive to that. It's a real issue for a lot of people. A lot of adults have true ADHD. But nowadays people talk about ADHD the same way terms like depression, trauma, gas lighting, and etc. are discussing in nonclinical territory. OCD. OCD is technically as well. Right. Right.
如果你不能让现实生活对你运作得当，那么你就需要找到一些东西来避免不断拖延。数字世界在这方面做得还行，它能勉强让生活过得去。现在关于多动症（ADHD，即注意力缺陷多动障碍）的讨论很多，有时没有"多动"成分。许多孩子确实被临床诊断为多动症，所以我们需要对此保持敏感，对很多人来说这确实是个问题。许多成年人也有真正的多动症。但现在人们谈论多动症的方式，就像对待抑郁症、创伤、煤气灯操控等术语在非临床环境中的讨论一样。强迫症（OCD）也是这样。对，对。
And I'm not disparaging that. It's just that we have sort of a dilution of deeper understanding of what these things really are and aren't. What are your thoughts? I realize you're not a psychiatrist. But what are your thoughts on the idea that many people that think they perhaps have true attention issues have either built those attention issues through neuroplasticity into their system, meaning their system probably worked, nervous system probably worked pretty well to focus. But they engaged in enough task switching that the search into the brain involved in cognition became optimized for this very distributed cognition as opposed to narrow focused attention.
我并不是在贬低这一点。只是我们似乎对这些事情的真正意义和不意义产生了某种认识上的淡化。你怎么看？我知道你并不是精神科医生，但是你对这样一个想法有什么看法：很多人认为自己可能真的有注意力问题，而实际上他们可能通过神经可塑性将这些问题“培养”进了自己的系统中。也就是说，他们的神经系统本来可能能够很好地集中注意力，但是由于他们频繁地切换任务，导致大脑在认知方面的搜索变得更适应分散的认知，而不是集中注意力。
And what are your thoughts about the amount of stimulant use on college campuses and in adult populations to try and overcome this? I feel like there's a lot of attempts to use pharmacology to match the level of distraction to try and make that distraction not seem like distraction. But this is an area I hear a lot about given the nature of the things I cover on the podcast. I think a lot of these issues are phone-induced. And I think the problem is not solvable as much. You don't need pills. You need a different phone relationship. My optimistic hypothesis is again this nonclinical difficulty with maintaining attention like in your work or if you're a college student or whatever.
你怎么看待大学校园和成年人口中为了克服注意力问题而使用刺激药物的情况？我觉得人们试图用药物来抵消注意力的分散，使其不再像分心那么明显。而由于我在播客中涉及的话题，这也是我常听到的一个领域。我认为很多问题都是因为手机引起的，且这个问题并不容易解决。你不需要药物，而是需要改变和手机的关系。我的乐观假设是，这种非临床的注意力难以集中问题，比如在工作或学习中，其实是可以通过改善其他方式来解决的。
It's not necessarily representing knock on wood like a wholesale neural rewiring. I basically rewired my circuits on my brain to be a sort of distributed switching processor. I think most of this is persisting in that much more malleable area that gets affected by moderate behavioral addictions. We have parts of the brain that are part of these feedback reward loops that's meant to be malleable. It's supposed to be, so we can have really rapid learning about what's happening in our environment and how we're supposed to respond to it. And this is what gets hijacked when you build up these behavioral addictions. So it's very quick to change. But that malleability means you can change it back.
这句话并不一定意味着“敲木头”这种说法代表着彻底的神经重组。我基本上重新调整了大脑中的电路，使其成为一种分布式的切换处理器。我认为大多数情况下，这种变化存在于更具可塑性的脑区，而这种区域容易受到中度行为成瘾的影响。我们大脑的一部分参与了这些反馈奖励循环，这是为了保持其可塑性。这是为了让我们能够迅速学习周围环境的变化以及如何对其做出反应。而当你形成这些行为成瘾时，这一部分就会被“劫持”。所以它能很快地发生变化。但这种可塑性也意味着我们可以将其改回来。
So I think this drive, do I have to keep checking my email or my phone, is again you build up a moderate behavioral addiction because of standard reward cues. And that's a part of the brain that you can't, it's difficult, but it's not your whole brain is now a social media brain. And that's just the brain you have because you're exposed to this. It's a matter of getting this stimuli out of your life, doing the same type of training you would do, extboard them exposure, like it used to the idea of feeling that drive and not actually doing it. You can work with blocking apps like there's stuff you can do. This is sort of like standard. It's painful. It takes two months and then like you're doing better on it.
所以我认为这种"我是否需要一直查看邮箱或手机"的驱动力，其实是因为我们对这些标准的奖励信号产生了一种中度的行为上瘾。这是大脑中的一部分功能，你不能完全控制它，但这并不是说你的整个大脑都变成了社交媒体的大脑。造成这种情况的原因是因为你接触到了这些刺激。要摆脱这种情况，就需要将这些刺激从生活中移除，像进行某种训练一样，将自己暴露在不去回应这种驱动的环境中。你可以使用一些屏蔽应用程序来辅助，这就像一种常规的训练。过程可能很痛苦，通常需要两个月左右，但之后情况就会有所改善。
So I do think we have a large stratum of subclinical attention issues that are not representing wholesale neural rewiring, but are like absolutely sort of expected outcomes of working with malleable reward cue circuits in the brain. We can fix those just like we can if you know you're gambling too much or compulsively eating the junk food or something. We don't say your whole brain got rewired for junk food. It's like no, you have this particular cue cycle that we have to work on.
所以，我确实认为我们有大量的潜在注意力问题，这些问题并不是因为大脑的神经线路完全重组，而是大脑中的可塑性奖励信号回路工作后所出现的预期结果。我们可以解决这些问题，就像我们可以解决过度赌博或强迫性地吃垃圾食品的问题一样。我们不会说你的大脑完全被垃圾食品重构了，而是说你有一个特定的信号循环需要处理。
So maybe I'm being optimistic there. And you know the brain better, but like it would be extraordinary if in like a 10 year period, right? Your entire brain somehow got rewired in a way that it couldn't sustain focus anymore. I totally agree with that statement unless you're a young person and you grew up in a distracted world and your brain optimized as the young brain does for the conditions it's in. And then I think you have a real issue.
所以也许我在这里过于乐观了。你更了解大脑，但如果在十年间，你的大脑完全重新连接，以至于无法再集中注意力，那真是太不寻常了。我完全同意这个观点，除非你是一个在充满分散注意力的环境中长大的年轻人，那么大脑在这种环境下进行了相应的优化。在这种情况下，我认为你确实会面临一个真正的问题。
Which is not to say it can't be rescued through the use of discipline tools protocols pharmacology nutrition great sleep and if necessary prescription drugs, right? Because there is a case for prescription drugs in certain instances for ADHD. And as I understand it, you know any time people say wait aren't those drugs just math isn't it just speed? Yep, they are in fedamines in most cases. And the idea is to increase the deployment of certain certain neuromodulators once I mentioned before as it means to induce neuroplasticity so that the focus state becomes more of a default state.
这并不是说通过使用纪律工具、协议、药理学、营养学、良好的睡眠以及如有必要的处方药等手段无法改善这种情况。因为在某些情况下，对于注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD），使用处方药是有理由的。据我了解，经常有人问，这些药不就是“药物”或“兴奋剂”吗？是的，大多数情况下它们是苯丙胺。其原理是通过增加某些之前提到的神经调节物质的释放，来诱导神经可塑性，从而使专注状态更成为一种默认状态。
So I think that young people are in trouble. I think that we I do worry about young people. I think we've it's it's akin to putting them in a kind of a well we know this in the visual system. If you take an animal or human and you put them into an altered visual environment, the visual system changes and your perception of the visual world is becomes inaccurate. And the way I think of this cognitively with respect to attention, the analogy would be I think we've been for the last 10 years or so, 10, 15 years, we've been raising kids in a sort of house of fun house mirror things which is anything but fun where you look at yourself and your legs are shorter than in your torso is long.
所以我认为年轻人面临困境。我确实担心年轻人。我觉得我们就像是把他们放在一个改变了的视觉环境中，这种环境会导致视觉系统发生变化，让人对视觉世界的感知变得不准确。我认为在注意力方面，过去十年或十五年间，我们就像是在一个哈哈镜屋里养育孩子，虽然叫哈哈镜屋，但实际上并不好玩，因为你在镜中看到的自己腿变得很短，而上半身显得很长。
And so everywhere you turn you're getting a distorted perception and trying to navigate the world through that distorted perception is very very difficult. You can do it, but it's a lot of extra work. That's what I feel we've done to young people. I'm very concerned about that as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I don't know what you're taking on this, but like do you think at the undergraduate level that we have just been not explicitly, but just sort of implicitly professors in general, we have been just sort of slowly adapting the difficulty of what we're teaching, et cetera, because we maybe there's a reduced cognitive focus capacity, which is like the key skill for this sort of very artificial thing of learning, you know, complicated college level work.
所以，无论你走到哪里，你都在接受一种扭曲的感知，通过这种扭曲的感知来理解世界是非常困难的。虽然可以做到，但需要付出额外的努力。我觉得我们对年轻人造成了这种局面。我对此非常担忧。我不知道你的看法如何，但我认为在本科教育中，我们教授们可能没有明确地，但隐隐约约地降低了教学难度。也许是因为学生的认知专注能力下降，而这恰恰是在学习复杂大学课程时所需的关键技能。
I think this would be an interesting experiment to find out is have we been implicitly having to sort of simplify things to keep roughly speaking grade distributions were normatively we feel comfortable. I mean, do we see this signal yet? That's my interest. Do we see this signal yet if we look back a generation 20 years ago versus now? I don't know for courses of the sort that teach or taught until very recently, I still teach, but I was directing the Neuronatomy course, and there's a laboratory module.
我认为这是一个有趣的实验，可以帮助我们了解，我们是否一直在潜意识中简化事物，以保持我们认为舒适的成绩分布。我想知道，我们现在是否能够看到这样的迹象。我的兴趣在于，如果我们回顾二十年前的一代人和现在相比，我们是否能发现这样的信号？我不太确定对于类似的课程，尤其是我仍然在教授、直到最近还在指导的神经解剖学课程及其实验模块，会有什么变化。
So the students dissect brains, they're holding actual human brains. That's a real physical contact that cannot be recapitulated digitally. You just can't do it. You can try use VR, but it ain't the same. I mean, how would you like it if your neurosurgeon on a virtual brain? And then it does surgery on a brain. No, not no such thing should happen. I think that my experience with this is perhaps most relevant with respect to social media, where I teach neuroscience.
学生们解剖大脑，他们手里拿着的是真正的人脑。这种真实的接触是无法通过数字方式复制的。你就是做不到。你可以尝试使用虚拟现实技术，但这完全不一样。想象一下，如果你的神经外科医生在虚拟大脑上练习，然后对真实的大脑进行手术，你能接受吗？绝对不能发生这样的事情。我认为在教授神经科学时，这种经验特别在社交媒体方面是最相关的。
And I use a variety of duration of clips, you know, the 90 second, real, the, you know, seven minute thing, the two and a half hour podcast that, you know, we have podcast solo podcast of four and a half hours. I don't know how many people listen, start to finish, but I think having a variety of different durations really helps. And I'm told by my team, I have a TikTok account, although I've never logged on there.
我使用各种不同长度的视频剪辑，比如说，90秒的短视频，七分钟的小影片，还有两个半小时的播客，我们甚至有时长达到四个半小时的单口播客。我不知道有多少人是从头到尾都听完的，但我认为拥有不同长度的内容确实很有帮助。我的团队告诉我，我有一个TikTok账号，不过我从来没登录过。
You know, I think TikTok represents the extreme of kind of bubble gum level information slash entertainment. And they really nailed some, some circuit that can handle information of about 30 to 60 seconds in a format that tickles the brain just right to keep swiping, liking, commenting and sharing. And I don't think that's anything like a real understanding or education. Yeah. I mean, it's is nothing like a real understanding or education.
你知道，我认为 TikTok 代表了那种泡泡糖式的信息和娱乐的极端。他们真正抓住了一种机制，可以在30到60秒内以一种恰到好处的形式刺激大脑，让人不断地刷、点赞、评论和分享。我觉得这与真正的理解或教育相差甚远。是的，我的意思是，它与真正的理解或教育完全不同。
Yeah. I mean, TikTok in particular, I think something what people get wrong about TikTok is they think that there was a real algorithmic innovation, which is actually not the case. As far as I understand, the machine learning algorithm underneath TikTok is probably like a relatively standard sort of multi-armed bandit, you know, intermittent feedback reinforcement algorithm. All it is, they clear that all the other noise. So, you know, if you're Facebook or something like this, you're trying to use algorithms to curate things, but you have all these other legacy structures you also have to try to satisfy. There's friends and, you know, you want to show stuff that your friends like more than other people and there's groups you're joining.
是的，我的意思是，特别是关于 TikTok，我认为很多人误解了 TikTok 的成功之处，他们以为是因为某种真正的算法创新，但其实并不是这样。据我所知，TikTok 背后的机器学习算法可能是一种相对标准的多臂老虎机类型的算法，就是那种间歇性反馈强化算法。事实上，他们只是清除了其他的干扰。如果你是 Facebook 或类似的平台，你试图用算法来整理内容，但你同时还要满足那些已有的复杂结构。例如，朋友之间的互动，你要展示你朋友比其他人更喜欢的内容，还有你加入的各种群组。
TikTok just got rid of all the noise. And so, we're just going to all we're doing is optimizing watch time. We think we don't know, but we think watch time is the main thing that they're optimizing. We want to optimize it. Watch time. And everything, all these videos all just exist as multidimensional points in this sort of semantic cloud. And all we're doing is just showing you things. And then you swipe another thing, swipe another thing. So, when you get rid of all the noise from machine learning algorithm, it doesn't also have to satisfy that I follow this person on Instagram or this is my friend. All I have to do is optimize this one number. How long did they walk before they swipe? It just turns out like, oh, it's really easy.
TikTok 刚刚消除了所有的干扰。我们的目标就是优化用户的观看时长。我们不确定，但我们认为观看时长是他们主要在优化的东西，而我们也想优化这一点。所有的视频都像存在于一个多维的语义云中，我们所做的就是展示内容给你，然后你可以继续滑动查看下一个内容。通过去掉机器学习算法中的所有干扰因素，我们不必再考虑用户在 Instagram 上关注了谁或者谁是他们的朋友。我们只需要优化一个数字：他们在滑动前看了多久。结果发现，这确实很简单。
Like, you do that for a couple hours. You're going to hone in on these subregions in this massive multidimensional space of stuff that just tickles this particular person's brain. You know, and it's very cybernetic because now I'm the user of TikTok, I'm the content creator. I'm getting immediate feedback what's working, what's not. I really quickly find these particularly rich regions in this sort of cybernetic space. And so it's like TikTok just purified something that was simple, basic machine learning, but just like purify what we're doing here. And that turned out to be enough to create what's like probably the most addictive force we've seen in the digital world in a long time.
就像这样，你花上几个小时做这件事。你会在这个庞大的多维空间中找到那些能刺激特定人群大脑的小区域。这种过程非常具有控制论的特点，因为我既是 TikTok 的用户，也是内容创作者。我能立刻获得反馈，了解什么内容有效，什么无效。因此，我能很快找到这个控制论空间中特别丰富的区域。就好像 TikTok 把我们正在做的基本的机器学习进行了净化，而这足以创造出一种我们在数字世界中见过的最具吸引力的力量。
So TikTok is optimized for dwell time. Yeah. That's the thought, right? Because it's not public. So like, we don't exactly know how the algorithm works. But people have been studying it like a Skinner box. You know, 100 phones and we're looking at all these accounts, look into variables. It seems like that's largely what it's optimizing for. Is how long did you watch before you swiped? Right? And that's it. So I mean, it's not. This was both what was smart about TikTok and also why I've been arguing it's destabilized the whole traditional social media narrative is because the traditional massive social media players of the last decade had this first mover advantage on these giant actual social networks.
所以，TikTok 是为了优化停留时间而设计的，是这样的，对吧？因为具体的算法是不公开的，所以我们也不能百分之百确定。但是，人们已经像研究斯金纳箱一样去研究它了。拿着100部手机，查看所有这些账户，分析各种变量。似乎TikTok主要就是在优化这一点：你在滑动之前看了多久。就是这样。这也是TikTok的聪明之处，同时也是我一直认为它动摇了传统社交媒体格局的原因。因为在过去的十年里，传统的大型社交媒体平台凭借着首发优势，建立了庞大的社交网络。
Right? So like Twitter and Facebook and Instagram had these massive networks of people's preferences of following this person and this person I'm following. And they could leverage these actual social graphs as a huge source of producing interesting content. And this was a huge first mover advantage because you can't, it's hard to get 100 million people to use something now. Right? TikTok got rid of all that. We don't want a social graph. US user don't have to declare anything. You don't have to follow people or say who your friends are. We'll just start showing you things. And that was more compelling than what you could generate with a social graph.
对吧？Twitter、Facebook 和 Instagram 拥有庞大的用户网络，每个人的关注关系构成了一个个社交图谱，这为他们提供了丰富有趣的内容来源。这是在市场竞争中巨大的先发优势，因为如今很难再吸引一亿用户去使用一个新平台。而 TikTok 改变了这一切。它不需要社交图谱，用户无需声明任何信息，无需关注他人或标出好友关系。我们会直接展示给你内容。这种方式比通过社交图谱生成的内容更吸引人。
But now there's no first mover advantage. So as the big social media players follow the TikTok model, which is much more algorithmic. Let's just try to curate based on algorithms, not who you follow or who your friends are. They're now much more vulnerable because TikTok could come along and do this without having to spend five years getting people to clear their friends. And now if someone else could come along and do this. So I think the major players are giving away their competitive advantage, which is this the social graph IP that no one will ever replicate again. They're giving away that advantage. And now it's a free for all playing field of all sources of attention engagement.
但现在已经没有先发优势。随着大型社交媒体平台纷纷效仿TikTok的模式，这个模式更加依赖于算法，而不是基于你关注的人或者你的朋友。由于TikTok能够在不需要花五年时间让用户建立好友关系的情况下做到这一点，它们现在更容易受到挑战。如果有其他人也能做到这一点，我认为主要的社交媒体公司正在放弃它们的竞争优势——也就是没人能再复制的社交网络知识产权。他们正在放弃这种优势，现在所有的参与者都在一个自由竞争的舞台上争夺用户的注意力和互动。
So I don't know. I think TikTok accidentally destabilized the social media decade that had been defining until I think just recently. What I find so interesting about social media platforms like TikTok is that sure it makes sense that kids and teens would use it. They were raised with it, Snapchat, etc. But when I see my peers who we call ourselves adults, people in their mid to late 40s, 50s, essentially playing kids games or engaging through these platforms that are, and they're not childlike necessarily, but they just prove that the or rather that they're adherent slash addiction to them just proves that this is tapping into some core neural circuit that exists in everyone.
所以我不太确定，但我觉得 TikTok 意外地动摇了那个曾经定义社交媒体的十年，直到最近才出现这种变化。我觉得像 TikTok 这样的社交媒体平台很有趣，孩子和青少年使用这些平台是很自然的，因为他们从小就接触这些东西，比如 Snapchat 等。然而，当我看到我这些被称为成年人的同龄人——四五十岁的人，基本上在这些平台上玩类似儿童游戏或互动时，尽管这些互动并不一定像孩子一样，但他们对这些平台的依赖实际上证明了这些平台触动了每个人内心深处的一些神经线路。
So while it might be shaping the young grain a lot, this is adults basically eating junk food all day, which raises a question, you know, I think while there are many different ways to eat and it's not a topic we want to get into now, Lord knows that's a great way to create a lot of social media content, debating which diet omnivore, carnivore, vegan, etc. The notion of intermittent fasting, limiting ones portion of the day where they eat to whatever, six hours, four hours, 12 hours is an interesting one that maybe has some applicability here.
虽然这可能会对年轻人产生很大影响，但成年人基本上就像是整天在吃垃圾食品。这就引发了一个问题：尽管饮食方式多种多样，我们现在不想深入讨论这个话题，因为大家都知道这在社交媒体上是很有争议的，比如讨论杂食、肉食、纯素食等不同饮食。但间歇性禁食的概念，即限制一天中进食的时间，比如六小时、四小时或十二小时，也许在这里有一定的适用性。
What are your thoughts about simply not turning on the phone, maybe even not turning Wi-Fi on if people are not as disciplined as you are with the laptop or tablet for the first two hours of the day or four hours of the day or for a portion of the day, sort of like taking a social media fast that is in 30 days, which I think for a lot of people is going to evoke high court as all release, just the idea of it.
对于那些不像你一样自律使用笔记本电脑或平板电脑的人来说，是否考虑过早上前两个小时或四个小时，或者一天中的某个时段，干脆不打开手机，甚至不开启 Wi-Fi？这有点像进行一个短期的社交媒体戒断，不必持续 30 天。我认为对于很多人来说，光是想到这个主意就已经感到很大的解脱。
Yeah, this is an idea I've written about before. In Deep Work, I had this chapter called Embrace Boredom. That was the entire idea. Right, so the idea was boredom by itself is not, I think, lawnable. There's a reason why it feels distressing. When things feel distressing, that's usually an evolutionary signal that there's something going on here. But what I was arguing in that chapter was exactly what you're talking about.
是的，这是我以前写过的一个想法。在《深度工作》这本书中，我有一章叫做“拥抱无聊”。这就是整个想法的核心。无聊本身我觉得并不是可以忽视的，它为什么会让人感到不安是有原因的。当某件事让人感到不安时，这通常是一个进化信号，表示这里可能发生了某些事情。但在那一章中，我所讨论的正是你所提到的内容。
You should have some moments every day where you're free from distraction even though you could be accessing distraction and you want to. And like a little bit each day, 20 minutes each day, and then maybe a longer session once a week, like a couple hours. My argument for that was it's about breaking a Pavlovian connection in this sense. So if it's every time I feel boredom, lack of novel stimuli, I get this release of the phone. Your mind is really going to make that association of like, this is what we always do.
你应该每天抽出一些时间来远离干扰，即使你有机会分心并且想这样做。每天可以有20分钟，然后每周一次进行更长时间的放松，比如几个小时。我这么建议是因为这样可以打破一种条件反射式的关联。在这种情况下，如果每次感到无聊或缺少新鲜刺激，就会立刻去玩手机，你的脑子会很快建立这种惯性关联，觉得这就是我们一直在做的事情。
If sometimes you don't, it's a different cognitive landscape. Your mind is sometimes we get the distraction, sometimes we don't. That's a much better place to be because now when it comes time to actually focus on something, your mind's like, I've been here before. We don't always get the distraction. So it isn't going back early 20th century psychology. There's probably a more neuroscientific way to think about this. But it's like breaking Pavlovian loops.
有时候，如果你没有受到干扰，那是一个不同的认知环境。我们的思维有时会被干扰，有时则不会。这种状态更好，因为当你需要专注于某件事情时，你的大脑会觉得：“我以前经历过这种状态。”我们不是总会被干扰。这与早期20世纪的心理学不同，可能用神经科学的方式来解释更为合适。就像是打破条件反射的循环。
If like sometimes we at the end of the day, I'm exhausted. It's Instagram time and it like scratches an itch. But other times, I'm bored. I'm in line at the pharmacy and I don't look at the phone. My brain learns like, yeah, we don't always do it. And so the idea is that if you make boredom more tolerable, then you're much more likely to succeed with doing things that are boring but hard.
有时候，一天下来我感到很疲惫，这时就想刷Instagram，它能解解我的“痒”。但其他时候，我感到无聊，比如在药店排队时，我并不会拿出手机。我的大脑就会学习到：哦，我们并不总是这样做。因此，如果你能让无聊更加容易忍受，那你就更有可能成功地去做那些既无聊又难的事情。
And I think deep work, for example, is boring. Just in the clinical sense of there's lack of novel stimuli. You're just doing the same thing for a long time. So I've always advocated for that is like, you shouldn't be unsuper-uncomfortable with boredom. Like don't go seeking it. I'm not a big believer of boredom is where all creative insight comes from. I think it's a strong evolutionary cue.
我认为深度工作，例如，确实是无聊的。从临床意义上来说，就是缺乏新颖的刺激。你只是长时间地在做同样的事情。因此，我一直主张，你不应该感到特别不舒服或不适应这种无聊。也就是说，不要刻意去寻找无聊。我不大相信所有创造性的灵感都来源于无聊。我认为无聊更多的是一种强烈的进化信号。
Like leave this state. But you do have to have some tolerance for it. I wonder if we need a different word than boredom. Are you familiar with this notion of gap effects and learning? These gap effects are similar to the effects of neural processing during sleep. Focus attention with some agitation triggers neuroplasticity and learning.
像是离开这种状态。但你确实需要对它有一定的容忍。我在想，我们是否需要用一个不同的词来代替“无聊”。你是否熟悉这种关于间隙效应和学习的概念？这些间隙效应类似于睡眠期间神经处理的效果。专注注意力并带有一些激动可以激发神经可塑性和学习。
But it's during sleep in particular deep sleep. Rapid eye movement, sleep states of deep rest, maybe in some forms of meditation. That the actual rewiring takes place. And then there's this literature about gap effects, which have been demonstrated for music, for math, for many things in which if people say are practicing new scales on the piano, for instance, but to be any scale.
这段话的意思是：但特别是在深度睡眠期间，快速眼动阶段，或者在某些形式的冥想中，实际的大脑重新连接会发生。此外，还有关于间隙效应的研究文献，这些研究已经在音乐、数学和很多领域中得到验证。例如，当人们练习钢琴上的新音阶时（当然也可以是任何音阶），间隙效应就会显现出来。
And then they intermittently are queued by a buzzer to just stop and do nothing. The hippocampus, which is involved in learning memory, replays the action sometimes in reverse just as it occurs during sleep at a rate of maybe 20 or 30 times faster at the neural level. We're not talking about bored and what we're talking about is pauses during which perhaps we are obtaining accelerated neuroplasticity.
然后，他们会间歇性地被蜂鸣器提醒停下来、什么都不做。与学习和记忆相关的海马体有时会以最快可能的速度，类似于睡眠时，在神经层面上以大约快20到30倍的速度回放这些动作。我们所谈论的并不是无聊，而是可能在暂停期间，我们获得了加速的神经可塑性。
The gap effects certainly accelerate learning. I've talked about these in other podcasts. But I wonder whether or not this thing that you're calling boredom. So being in line to get some groceries and not taking one's phone out while the checker is scanning the groceries through and just not really doing much of anything, it's entirely possible that the thing that we were working on earlier that day or the previous day is being processed in the hippocampus at an unconscious level at a much more rapid rate where we to look at our phone, we would inhibit those gap effects which are truly beneficial.
间隔效应确实能加速学习。我在其他播客中也谈到过这一点。不过，我想知道你所说的这种“无聊”是否也有类似效果。比如在排队买菜时，不拿手机出来，在收银员扫描商品时，什么也不做。很有可能我们在当天早些时候或者前一天所做的事情正在海马体中被无意识地更快速地处理。如果我们拿出手机，那些对学习真正有益的间隔效应可能就会被抑制。
Yeah. Well, I mean, professors feel this all the time, right? At least a lot of ones I've talked to with peer reviews. So I don't know if you've had this experience, but you're like reviewing a paper. I often have this experience where when I'm first engaging with the paper, I feel incredibly frustrated. I don't quite understand what they're doing here. Like this mathematics isn't quite making sense to me. And it'll often be the fact I come back later. Like, well, let me just like write up what I have so far. And your understanding is like much, much better, right? So there's this, this sense of maybe something's been processing. I took that so seriously when I was, especially a postdoc, like when I was at the height of just all I do in my life is produce value with my brain.
是的，我的意思是，教授们经常会有这样的感觉，对吧？至少我和很多教授聊过后发现，他们在同行评审时有这种体验。我不知道你是否有过这样的经历：当你在审阅一篇论文时，我常常会感到非常沮丧。我不太明白他们在这里做什么，这些数学公式对我来说没有太大意义。但通常情况下，当我隔一段时间再次回来看时，会想："好吧，让我先把我目前的理解写下来。" 然后你会发现自己的理解能力提高了很多。所以有一种感觉就是可能有些事情在你心里慢慢消化、成型。当我特别是做博士后时，我对这种感觉格外重视，因为那时我全心全意投身于用脑力创造价值。
Every day I would do what I call thorough walks because I discovered thorough, well, a grad student, I read it down by the Charles, like the full sort of, you know, just minus the beret, like pretentious grad student thing. But I was really in the, the, the Walden real influential book for me. So every day when I would walk back, I was living on Beacon Hill, walking from MIT. So people who know Boston, it's going across the Longfellow Bridge. I would say nothing but nature observation. Like that's what I'm doing. I'm just, oh, the ISIS thinner on the Charles today. Like look at this tree or the leaves coming back. Partially, I think what was going on is like, this was right after I'd been whiteboarding it, right? I think it was letting stuff process, right?
每天，我都会进行一种我称之为“彻底散步”的活动，因为我受到了灵感。那是一位研究生让我有所启发，我在查尔斯河畔读到的，像是完全照搬某种，除了没有戴贝雷帽，就像是自命不凡的研究生那样。不过，《瓦尔登湖》这本书对我确实影响很大。所以每天走路回家的时候，我从麻省理工学院走回位于灯塔山的住处。了解波士顿的人都知道，这条路要穿过朗费罗大桥。走路时我不说话，只专注于观察自然。比如，我会注意到查尔斯河上的薄冰，看看这棵树或者叶子正在复苏。在某种程度上，我觉得这种散步是在让我处理一些思绪，就像在白板上做思维整理之后让自己的思考得到缓冲。
So I had this explicitly in my routine, a lot of time where I was, okay, I can't think about work at all. I can't do anything else, but you know, I'm thinking about the tree. I'm thinking about the water, like really sort of minimal cognitive lifts. And I wonder if that's what was going on there. Like to me that, I mean, that was a very productive period of my life. Yeah, I feel like in the, in the last five, 10 years, thanks largely in part to Matt Walker's book, Why We Sleep and the Advocacy Around Sleep from others. We've come to understand that sleep is essential for mental health, physical health and learning, cognitive performance, physical performance, so much so that now people devote immense amounts of attention and resources to trying to get the best possible night sleep.
所以，我在我的日常生活中明确安排了这样一个时段，我完全不去想工作。我不做其他事情，只是想着树，想着水，类似这种几乎无需思考的简单事情。我在想，这样做是否有助于我度过了一段非常高效的时期。过去五到十年里，多亏了Matt Walker那本《为什么我们要睡觉》的书以及其他人对睡眠的倡导，我们开始理解睡眠对心理健康、身体健康、学习力、认知表现和体能有多么重要。现在人们为获得优质的睡眠投入了大量的精力和资源。
Whereas it was the, I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality prior to that. And I would love to see a world where people embrace not the notion of boredom per se, but the notion of gaps, lack of external stimuli coming into our, our eyes and our cognitive system as it means to get smarter, to get more creative, to get better. We just need a language for this. Yeah. And I think it's the, you know, so often it language is as a separator when it comes to health and performance tools. Something I really strive for is to try and create language that's not linked to any one person that illustrates what something is for. So maybe no small task, but maybe we'll just have you rename boredom as a neural rewiring epochs or something like that.
在此之前，我一直抱有"等死了再睡"的心态。我希望看到一个世界，人们不仅仅认可无聊这个概念，而是接受空隙、外部刺激缺乏的状态，认为这是一种让我们变得更聪明、更有创意、更优秀的方法。我们需要一种语言来表达这个想法。语言常常成为健康和表现工具中的隔阂。我一直努力创造一种不专属任何一个人的语言，能够解释某事物的目的。这可能不是一个小任务，但或许可以把"无聊"重命名为"神经重塑期"或类似的名称。
I'll go with a term. Yeah. My whole writing career, by the way, is based on taking things people already intuitively know in their gut and giving it a two word name. Just having the language around that really matters. Like it does. Oh, deep work. Oh, okay. That's like this activity. I kind of knew that was important. I didn't have a name or digital minimalism. Like, oh, yeah, I kind of know what that means. Like it's a different, different philosophy towards it. But there's all, so I do have a name related to the gaps we're talking about, but for one of the other negative effects, right? So we have the positive effects you talked about, which is consolidation of learning and acceleration learning.
当然。翻译后的内容如下：
"我会用一个术语来表达。是的。顺便说一句，我整个写作生涯都是基于将人们已经直觉上知道的东西赋予一个两个字的名字。有这样的语言表达真的很重要。比如，'深度工作'，哦，好的，就是这个活动。我感觉这很重要，但以前没有名字；或者是'数字极简'，哦，是的，我大概知道那是什么意思。这是对待它的一种不同的哲学方式。所以，对于我们谈论到的间隙，我确实有一个相关的名字，但指的是其他负面影响之一，对吧？我们谈到了积极的效果，比如学习的巩固和加速学习。"
We had one negative effect, which was the Pavlovian connection to distraction. The other one I've written about before is solitude deprivation, right? So I'm using a different definition of solitude than the colloquial one. Most people think of it as a physical thing. I'm just isolated, but there's a cognitive psychological definition of solitude. Which means absence of stimuli created by other human minds, right? So I'm not taking in information that's coming directly from another human mind. Having no period with this solitude. So having no period in your day where you're free from stimuli created from other minds is solitude deprivation and it's a real issue.
我们遇到了一个负面影响，那就是与分心之间的条件反射式联系。我之前写过的另一个问题是孤独感匮乏。不过，我用的是一个不同于常用意义的孤独定义。大多数人认为孤独是一种身体上的状态，指的是一个人被孤立。但在认知心理学中，孤独的定义是没有接受来自其他人思想的信息刺激。也就是说，你没有从别人那里直接获得信息。在一天里如果没有任何时间段可以完全不被其他人思想所形成的刺激干扰，这就是孤独感匮乏，这确实是一个真实存在的问题。
And partially it's a real issue because when we're processing input from another human brain, it's all hands on deck, right? And we're very social beings. A huge portion of our brain is dedicated to this, right? So it's a very cognitively expensive activity when I'm trying to understand another human's what they're saying. I'm simulating their mental state. I'm trying to understand like where do they fall in this sort of social hierarchy. And one of my arguments was when you spend your entire day in that state, it's exhausting and anxiety producing. And like until we had smartphones and ubiquitous wireless internet, the idea that you could banish all solitude from your day is laughable. It's impossible, right? So of course we had a lot of portions of our day where our brain was not like ramped up in gear for like the sort of social processing mode, but smartphones makes it possible that you can be in that mode all day long.
这在某种程度上确实是个问题，因为当我们处理来自另一个人脑的信息时，需要全力以赴，对吧？我们非常具有社交性，大脑中很大一部分都用于这种社交活动。所以，当我试图理解另一个人所说的话时，这是一个在认知上非常消耗精力的活动。我在模拟他们的心理状态，试图理解他们在社会等级中的位置。我认为，当你整天都处于这种状态时，会让人感到精疲力竭并引发焦虑。在智能手机和无处不在的无线网络出现之前，认为可以彻底消除一天中的孤独是可笑的，也是不可能的，对吧？所以，我们当然有很多时间是大脑不需要处于这样的社交处理模式中的。但智能手机让我们可以一整天都处在这种状态中。
And so like one of the things I hypothesize is some of the anxiety rises that goes with the age of smartphones is brain exhaustion, right? So that's like that's another negative effect of the constant. We have two negative effects now for the constant stimuli and one positive effect for the absence of the constant stimuli. So I think we're making a case here for not always being on your device. Yeah, I agree. One of my favorite literature is from neurosciences. I think most people have heard of the so-called critical period stages of development when the brain is essentially hyperplastic to any input for better or worse. This is a stage of life called childhood. And then of course people throughout the number 25 after age 25 plasticity is possible. It requires more effort, tension, etc. And then sleep, so forth.
我猜想随着智能手机时代的到来，人们的焦虑可能在增加，一个原因可能是大脑的疲惫对吗？这就是我们一直受到持续刺激的负面影响之一。现在我们说，这种持续刺激有两个负面影响，而缺乏这种持续刺激有一个正面影响。所以，这似乎在说明我们不应该总是挂在设备上。我同意这种看法。我非常喜欢神经科学方面的文献，我认为大多数人都听说过所谓的“关键期”，这是大脑在发展过程中对任何输入信息高度敏感的阶段，无论好坏。这个阶段称为童年。当然，还有一个说法是，25岁之后，大脑的可塑性依然存在，但需要更多的努力、专注等，以及良好的睡眠等来支持。
But we know based on really beautiful studies that if you deprive someone of sensory input for even a few hours and we're not talking about sitting in a completely blackened room with knowing input, but you essentially limit the amount of sensory input. In the period that follows you get an opportunity for a hyperplastic response to any stimuli. And this just makes sense if you understand basics about signal to noise and the visual system and the brain. It just means when there's a lot of background chatter of stuff, it's harder to see the stuff that matters and the stuff that the brains are required to. Very computer science-e, neuroengineering type perspective.
根据一些非常精彩的研究，我们知道，如果你让一个人减少感官输入，即使只是几个小时——这里指的不是完全黑暗的房间，而是基本上限制感官输入的量——在之后的一段时间里，你会发现他们对任何刺激的反应会变得非常敏感。这其实很好理解，如果你了解一些关于信噪比、视觉系统和大脑的基础知识，这一点就很容易明白。当背景中有很多无关的“噪音”时，我们的大脑更难以识别那些重要的信息。从计算机科学和神经工程的角度来看，这就是这个概念的基础。
But yes, I would love for you to come up with a two word description of this. It's not boredom-induced plasticity. It's this quiet induced hyperplasticity or something. I don't know. Maybe we can riff on this together sometimes not trying to move into your space. But I have a very practical question. And I'd love to get a little more insight into the structure of your days. But are you a list maker? Would you wake up in the morning and make lists and cross things off and then decide what are the key items on that list? No, I'm a time blocker.
当然，我很想让你为这想出一个两字的描述。这不是因为无聊而导致的可塑性，而是某种安静引起的超可塑性。我不太确定，或许我们可以一起探讨，不是为了闯入你的领域。我有一个非常实际的问题，希望能对你的日常安排有更多了解。你是一个喜欢列清单的人吗？早上起床会写清单，然后划掉完成的事项，决定清单上最重要的内容是什么？不，我是一个时间管理者。
Time blocker. Yeah. So I'm not a big believer in to do list. I like to grapple with the actual available time. I have a meeting here. I have to pick my kids up from school here. Here's the actual hours of the day that are free and where they fall. All right, what do I want to do with that time? Well, now that I see that there's a lot of gaps in the middle of the day here. They're short. Maybe there I'm going to do a lot of small, non-comely demanding thing. Oh, this first 90 minutes in the morning is the main time I have uninterrupted. Okay, so this I'm going to work on writing.
时间管理者。是的，我并不是很相信待办事项清单。我更喜欢根据实际可用的时间来安排。我有个会议，这里我要去接孩子放学。这样一来，我就可以看到一天中哪些小时是空闲的，它们的位置是哪里。好，那么我打算怎么利用这些时间呢？现在我发现，白天的中间有很多空闲时间，虽然很短。我可能会用这些时间去做很多小的、不太费脑子的事情。哦，早上最初的90分钟是我不被打扰的主要时间。好，那么我将在这段时间内专注于写作。
So I've been a big believer of this since I was an undergrad. Like you give your time a job as opposed to having a list, which is somewhat orthogonal to what's actually happening your day. And then just as you go through your day, seeing what do I want to try to do next, which I think is a lot less efficient. I'm going to try your method. I try and structure my days as much as I can, but it just never quite works. Do you work late into the night or are you no, no, I'm a 530 man. Okay. Yeah. So 530 PM, that's it.
自从我在大学本科时，我就一直相信这种方法。与其制定一个实际与日常情况不太相关的待办事项清单，不如给你的时间安排一个任务。然后在一天中随时决定接下来要做什么，我认为这样效率比较低。我打算尝试你的方法。我尽量把一天的时间安排得井井有条，但总是行不通。你工作到很晚吗？哦不，我的工作时间到下午5点半。好的。是的，所以就是下午5点半结束。
Yeah, more or less, that's my cut off. Now the one exception is if I'm writing on deadline, I'll sometimes like if I need to get more writing done, I can do an evening writing session, which I got used to through long experience. I've I used to write my blog post at night after like my kids went to bed. Now they're older and they don't go to bed as early. So it's like the one thing I have left that I'll do after 530s. Like every once in a while, I'll do like a 90 minute evening writing block. But I call this, by the way, this whole philosophy I call fixed schedule productivity.
是的，差不多就是这样，我的工作时间基本上到此为止。不过有一个例外，如果我有截止日期的写作任务，有时候需要多写一点，我会安排一个晚上写作的时间，这是我长期养成的习惯。以前，我会在孩子们睡觉后写博客文章，现在他们长大了，不再那么早睡，所以唯一会在下午5:30之后做的事情就是偶尔安排一个90分钟的晚上写作时间。我称这种工作方式为“固定时间表的高效工作法”。
I've been doing it since I was a grad student, fixed the work hours schedule. That's my commitment. I work in these hours and then work downstream from that for everything else. So like this controls like even what you decide to bring into your life, because you know I can't go past a schedule and it drives you to be more innovative and how you deal with your time and schedule. You have to be efficient because you only have these these hours here. That's been, you know, a signal for my life since I was in my early 20s fixed a schedule and don't work outside of that schedule.
自从研究生时期开始，我就固定了工作时间表。这是我的承诺，我在这些时间段工作，然后其他所有事情都以此为基础来安排。这样的话，这种安排甚至会影响到你决定要怎样安排自己的生活，因为你知道不能超出这个时间表，这迫使你在时间和日程安排上要更加创新。你必须要高效，因为你的工作时间就只有这么多。从20岁出头以来，制定固定的时间表、不在规定时间外工作的原则一直是我生活中的一个标志。
Now it's your move to figure out anything you want to do. You have to make that work when we come professor figure out how to make that work. You want to write books while you're being a professor figure out how to make that work. You don't have the option of just throwing hours at it and you innovate a lot. I think when you have the constraints, where do you sleep and exercise fit into your schedule? What's your typical to bed time? Wake up time. What's your typical exercise routine?
现在轮到你来决定你想做什么了。你必须找到方法让它实现。当我们成为教授时，要想办法让它奏效。你想在当教授的同时写书，那就找出方法让它实现吧。你不能只是单纯投入时间，而是要大量创新。我认为当你面临限制时，该如何安排睡眠和锻炼？你通常几点睡觉？几点起床？你一般的锻炼习惯是什么？
And the reason I ask about this is because I think nowadays we hopefully people understand that exercising cognitive function are inextricably linked. Yeah. And we're all going to live longer lives and be sharper mentally by doing exercise. Yeah. So I mean my main like actual working with weights, I do this pre-dinner. Right. And this was the innovation in the last couple of years. It's a fantastic psychologically for me. This is a transition from work to like family time after work. So so I'll do like 45, 50 minutes garage gym, you know, the way we built during COVID.
我之所以提到这个问题，是因为我认为现在人们应该都明白锻炼与认知功能是密切相关的。通过锻炼，我们能够活得更长久，且在精神上更加敏锐。我通常的主要锻炼方式是举重，并在晚饭前进行。这是我在过去几年中做出的创新，对我来说，这在心理上非常棒。这让我从工作时间过渡到下班后的家庭时光。我会在车库的健身房锻炼45到50分钟，这是我们在COVID期间建立的。
After I'm done working before dinner and once you get used to that, like it also forces you like, I gotta finish work because I gotta get this in before dinner. But then I'll do also quite a bit of walking. If it's not a teaching day, so I'm not on campus. I do a lot of thinking on foot, you know, walking my kids through the bus stop, which isn't particularly close and back. So I'll do a lot of walking. But that's when I get my serious exercise now is always, always pre-dinner.
在晚餐前结束工作后，一旦你习惯了这种安排，就会逼着自己想：“我得在晚餐前完成工作。” 然后我会走很多路。如果当天没有教学任务，我不需要去校园的话，我会通过步行来思考，比如带孩子去一个不太近的公交车站并返回。所以我会做很多步行运动。而我现在比较认真的锻炼时间一直是晚餐前。
Then I want to be up, you know, in our room by 10. And then at that point, I don't track. So I have insomnia issues, which actually has been like key driver of a lot of the things I think about, especially with slow productivity, is I'm very wary because I can without any control on my own, just find myself unable to sleep sometimes. Fall asleep or stay asleep? Fall asleep. Yeah. I mean, I used to get it really bad. Not so bad now, but you know, it comes and goes.
然后我希望在10点之前回到我们的房间，到那个时候我就不再追踪时间了。我有失眠问题，这实际上是我思考很多事情的关键因素，尤其是在慢速生产力这方面。我非常警惕，因为有时候即使我无能为力，我也会发现自己无法入睡。是入睡困难还是无法保持睡眠？是入睡困难。是的，我以前这种情况很严重，现在没那么糟糕，但你知道，这种情况时好时坏。
That really affected the way I thought about productivity because it seemed like to me the definition of just, I get after it with a bunch of stuff wasn't really on the table because if my notion of productivity depended on me like every day, being able to just like hammer on a bunch of stuff, I'm very busy, I have lots of commitments. What would happen if I couldn't sleep? I want to be able to do that. So I drifted naturally towards a definition of productivity, which was it doesn't really matter if you work tomorrow, but it is important that like this month you work, like writing a book.
这真的影响了我对生产力的看法，因为我以前认为，所谓的生产力就是我能做很多事情。但如果我的生产力概念是建立在我每天都能高效、快速地处理大量事务之上，对于一个非常忙碌、有许多承诺的我来说，这样是不切实际的。如果我哪天失眠了怎么办？我希望能应对这种情况。因此，我自然而然地转向一种新的生产力定义，即并不要求每天都高强度工作，而是注重在一个月的时间内完成某些重要任务，比如写一本书。这样看来，注重的是长远的成果，而不是每天的忙碌。
It doesn't matter if you work on your book chapter tomorrow in particular, but like this month, you have to spend a lot of time working on it. So it was like an insomnia compatible definition of productivity was sort of morphed into this idea of slow productivity, taking your time with it. So it's interesting. So like, sleep issues really shaped away. I thought about work and put me on these much longer time scales of productivity.
这段话大意是： 明天具体要不要工作在书的章节上，其实没那么重要，但在这个月，你一定要花很多时间来完成这项工作。在这个过程中，我发现了一种适合失眠者的生产力定义，慢慢地变成了一种“慢生产力”的理念，就是不急于求成。很有趣的是，睡眠问题实际上改变了我对工作的看法，让我把生产力放在一个更长的时间尺度上去衡量。
Try not to be dependent on any particular day being critical to what you do. I don't want the high stress situation. I don't want to like, I'm just going to 10 hours a day for the next 10 days, we're going to make this deal happen. Like I can't operate in that space because I worry about it any time my brain could betray me and I could like, sleep for a couple days. I think it's really important that you're sharing this because while people's challenges differ, I think oftentimes people hear the content of my podcast or other podcasts and think, gosh, I have to have everything dialed in just right.
尽量不要依赖某一天对你的工作至关重要。我不想要高压的情况，我不想每周连着10天每天工作10小时，只为了达成某个交易。我无法在那种情况下工作，因为我担心我的头脑随时可能背叛我，让我就这么睡上几天。我觉得你分享这些很重要，因为尽管人们面临的挑战各不相同，很多时候人们听到我的播客或其他播客的内容时会觉得，哇，我必须把一切都安排得非常妥当。
When in fact, most all of the tools and protocols that have been discussed on the Hubertman Lab podcast are in response to particular challenge that I've had or that others close to me have had. I love this, I'm sorry that you suffer from insomnia. We have a series on sleep with Matt Walker in which he lays out some great tools that we haven't yet discussed on the podcast. I'll just send you a text to you. I'll call you with a short list of those and hopefully they'll help.
实际上，Hubertman Lab 播客中讨论的大多数工具和协议，都是为了解决我自己或我身边的人所面临的特定问题。我很喜欢这些工具，不过我很遗憾你有失眠的困扰。我们有一个与Matt Walker合作的关于睡眠的系列节目，其中他提出了一些很棒的工具，我们在播客中还没来得及讨论。我会发短信给你，也会打电话告诉你一些相关的建议，希望这些能够对你有所帮助。
But as we do cover insomnia in some depth, but I think it's important that people realize that they can be very productive with the hours that they have and the moments or hours of high focus clarity that they have, even if they're not sleeping great, even if they're raising small children, because that's the real world. Certainly that's the real world of deadlines and academia, but family and colds and flus and travel and jet lag and arguments and all the happy stuff too, vacations.
虽然我们确实深入讨论了失眠问题，但我认为重要的是要让人们意识到，即使他们的睡眠不好，甚至在抚养小孩的情况下，他们仍然可以在有限的时间里以及在精神高度集中的时刻，完成很多工作。这才是真实的生活环境。无论是面临截止日期的压力，还是在学术界中，家庭、感冒和流感、旅行和时差、争吵以及假期等快乐的事情，都是真实生活的一部分。
So it sounds like you're very good at adapting your day to what's going on around it, but that you have certain sort of committed time. In my correct, in assuming that you have at least one period of say 60 to 90 minutes of real, what you would call deep work, let's say at least five days a week. I know that might be an underestimate, but it seems like that's what I'm extracting from this. That's the goal.
听起来你很擅长根据周围的情况调整自己的一天安排，但你还是有一些固定的时间。不知我理解得对不对，我猜你可能至少有一段时间，比如60到90分钟用于真正的深度工作，而且每周至少五天。我知道这可能是低估了，但这似乎是我从中提取的信息。这是个目标。
So depending on the season is how extreme that can get. So the busiest season would be like a teaching semester, but even then I'm going to make sure that five days a week I'm starting with deep work and the non-teaching days are more than the teaching days. Compare that to the summer, for example, where all I do for the most part is deep work. No meetings on Mondays and Fridays.
根据不同的季节，事情的极端程度可能会有所不同。最忙的季节可能是学期期间，不过即便如此，我也会确保每周五天都以深入工作开始，而且非教学日比教学日更多。比如说，夏天的时候，我的大部分时间都专注于深入工作。周一和周五没有会议。
All admin stuff is mid-day to early afternoon, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Everything else is deep work. Just locked in hours at a time. But I want, if I'm not getting five days, five days of starting the day with deep work, I'm unhappy. Because I mean, I keep coming back to this is okay, because I'm not going to be able to.
所有的行政事务安排在周二、周三和周四的中午到下午早些时候。其他时间都用于深度工作，就是连续长时间的专注工作。但是，如果我不能有五天在一天开始时进行深度工作，我会不开心。因为我总是觉得这样安排是可以的，但我知道我做不到。
I mean, fortunately, the insomnia does involve, it has bothered me in years, but the threat of it completely shaped away, I think about things. And because I know I'm never going to be like an Elon Musk style energy. I can just take on seven companies and make it happen. I just don't have that ability. I've always focused on the long game.
意思是，幸运的是，失眠问题确实存在，但已经困扰我很多年了。不过，失眠的威胁彻底改变了我看待事物的方式。而且因为我知道自己永远不会像埃隆·马斯克那样充满活力，能同时经营七家公司并取得成功。我没有那种能力，所以我一直专注于长远的目标。
And to me, the long game plays out with get your deep work time in. Just keep working on the stuff you do best and get better at it. Tomorrow doesn't matter. But if you're doing this most days for the next four months, that's going to matter. So I often think about productivity in my own life at the scale of decades. What do I want to do in my 20s?
对我来说，长远的规划就是要保证有时间进行深度工作。只要坚持做你最擅长的事情，并不断提高。明天可能并不重要，但如果你在接下来的四个月里大多数日子都这样做，那就很重要了。因此，我常常从数十年的视角来思考我自己的生产力。在我二十多岁的时候，我想做些什么呢？
Okay, what do I want to do in my 30s? What do I want to do in my 40s? And that helps. I get my 30s. I have a lot of young kids. Yeah, I mean, the amount of time I could spend total working is much less. But I could still think about what do I want to do in my 30s? How do I make that happen? Let me make sure I'm pushing on those things.
好的，我在三十多岁时想做什么？我在四十多岁时想做什么？这样的思考对我很有帮助。我处于三十多岁，有很多年幼的孩子。因此，我能够用于工作的总时间减少了很多。但是，我仍然可以思考在三十多岁的时候我想实现什么目标，以及如何实现这些目标。我需要努力推动这些事情的实现。
Then everything else I can adapt to, I can give here and there. It allows you to be very adaptable when you're thinking about what do I want to do for the next 10 years. It also means you're not on a random Tuesday, chiding yourself because like, why didn't I get three more hours of working? That becomes sort of a nonsensical question.
然后其他事情我都可以适应，可以在各方面做出让步。这样一来，当你思考未来十年想做什么时，就能变得非常灵活。这也意味着你不会在某个随机的星期二责备自己，比如，为什么没有多工作三个小时。这个问题就变得毫无意义了。
And what you care about is like what happens in the next decade, which is, that's the long game. It's not about, you know, hustling today. It's about, I came back to deep work day after day after day when other people got distracted by TikTok, you know, like I got a, you know, whatever. It's that coming back to what matters again and again.
你关心的是接下来十年会发生的事情，那才是长远的目标。重点不在于今天拼命忙碌，而在于每天坚持做深入的工作。即使其他人被抖音分散注意力，你依旧一天天回到重要的事情上。关键在于一次又一次地关注那些真正重要的东西。
Years ago, I was in a scientific competition slash battle and one of my tools, it wasn't really the kindest tool was I would just suggest to the competitor, um, great television series. So the wire, yeah, that's how it's great. And we won a few, they won a few, but, um, you know, there's something very addictive about those Netflix shows, I, you know, I mean, they're unbelievably addictive.
多年前，我参加过一场科学竞赛，就是那种对抗赛。我想说的是，其中有一个不是很友好的策略，就是我会向对手推荐一些非常好看的电视剧，比如《火线》。结果是我们赢了几场，他们也赢了几场。不过说实话，这些 Netflix 的剧真的太让人上瘾了。
Just even seeing that the, the slider next episode slider come up, you can skip the intro. It's just like they've just dialed it in. So I suggest those to competitors all the time. Not all I do. No longer. But um, then who knows what role they played, but I just noticed in myself, um, how distracting they could be, they could take me to, when I start watching Ozark, yeah, I found myself waking up in the middle of the night, perhaps to use the restroom or something and then starting another episode of Ozark is wild.
看到下集预告的滑块弹出来，你可以跳过片头，就感觉他们已经把流程简化到极致了。所以我经常向竞争对手推荐这些功能。虽然现在我不再这样做了，但谁知道他们在其中扮演了什么角色呢？我只是注意到，这些滑块对我有多么分散注意力。当我开始看《黑钱胜地》时，我发现自己半夜醒来，可能是去上洗手间，然后就又开始看下一集，实在是太疯狂了。
Yeah. And, um, I wonder whether or not a way to reverse engineer one's way to, uh, productivity, reverse hack or way to productivity would be to think about all the ways that you would, um, benevolently deploy distraction for a competitor and then, um, ask yourself what, which, which of those you're still engaging in and think of yourself as sort of in a competition with the highly distracted version of oneself.
好的。我在想，是否可以通过逆向思维来实现高效工作，比如设想一下你如何善意地给对手制造分心，然后再问问自己，你目前还在从事哪些类似的分心活动。这样，你可以把自己想象成正在与非常分心的那个自己竞争。
Yeah. Um, because I think that one task, um, I think for us today is to try and think about for the person listening to this who's non-academic, um, who's hearing about all this distraction that enjoys some social media, you know, how, how can they bring about the best version of themselves in terms of productivity, but also presence for family, presence with self, um, et cetera. And, um, and if one isn't in a competitive environment, then maybe it's about setting up different, um, mental maps of the self and then trying to pit them against one another and be the best version.
好的，我认为今天我们的一个任务是为那些听到这些内容的非学术人士考虑一下，他们可能享受一些社交媒体带来的消遣，但如何在提高生产力的同时，也能更好地陪伴家人和关注自身。还有，如果一个人不在竞争激烈的环境中，可能就需要为自己设立不同的心理蓝图，然后尝试让这些蓝图互相竞争，从而成为最好的自己。
Yeah. Literally. I think that's interesting. Right. Like, think about what would be, yeah, what would I like to say, do you think about my competitor? What would really give me a leg up? Yeah. Am I doing this? I mean, but I would also add in here, this is like a slower productivity type idea. Um, you figure out the thing you really care about. You figure out what you would need to do to really show up for that thing.
好的。字面意思上来说，我觉得这很有趣。对吧。想一想，如果要谈谈看法，你对我的竞争对手有什么想法？怎样才能真正让我占得先机呢？是的，我在做这件事吗？不过我还要补充一点，这类似于一种较慢节奏的生产力理念。嗯，你要弄清楚你真正关心的事情，并且弄清楚你需要做什么才能真正为这件事做好准备。
And then if you're doing that, like, give yourself a break on everything else too. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm this way with right. If I'm getting in my writing time, I have to write. I'm very uncomfortable. And I'm not writing. I just write all the time articles, books. You know, I'm always writing. If I'm getting in my writing time, then it's like, okay, the rest of the day, maybe like this week was a kind of a loss.
如果你正在这样做，也要在其他事情上给自己放松一点。你懂我的意思吗？对我来说，就是这样的。如果我有时间去写作，我就必须写。我不写作的时候非常不自在。我一直在写文章、书籍，总是在写作。如果我有时间写作，那么就可以说，剩下的一天，或者这周的其他部分，也许会有点像是浪费了。
Like the kids were home sick or there was a crisis at the university or whatever. And like, I'm just trying to keep that under control and like have good productivity habits and like don't context switch too much and don't be too distracted, but still have your fixed title productivity, like in the 530 every day, in time block and try to be reasonable with that time. Limit the damage. But if I'm doing the thing that ultimately really matters, I'm going to be pretty happy with it.
就像孩子们生病在家，或者大学里发生了什么危机之类的情况。而我只是在努力控制这些情况，保持良好的生产力习惯，比如不频繁切换任务，尽量不被打扰，但还是要有固定的生产力，例如每天5:30固定时间段完成任务，并努力合理利用时间。要限制影响。但如果我在做那些真正重要的事情，我会对此感到非常满意。
So it's like moving to the definition of, am I happy with what I'm producing away from a quantity metric and to this more. Am I aggregating the quality reps? You know, and like I think in weightlifting, this would make a lot more sense, right? It's like, yeah, there's a certain number of like a certain amount of time under load, each muscle group needs to be on. And like if I'm doing that, I'm happy if I'm, you know, weightlifting, right?
这句话的意思是：我们需要转变思维方式，从关注产出的数量转向关注其质量。这就像是在问“我对自己产出的质量满意吗？”而不仅仅是“我产出了多少”。这种思维方式在举重中可能更容易理解。比如，每个肌肉群需要在负重下经历一定时间，只要我做到了这一点，我在举重时就感到满意。
There's no notion of like, why can't I, why can't I exercise five hours more or this or that? And so I sometimes try to think about my core intellectual work that way. Like if I'm getting in the core deep reps and the thing I care most about, which for me is almost always writing, then like the rest I just want to, it's like damage control. Like I want to like do the other stuff well and like not get too stressed out about it.
没有那种“为什么不可以”、“为什么我不能多锻炼五个小时”之类的想法。因此，我有时试图用这种方式来思考我的核心智力工作。如果我在进行深度核心训练，而我最关心的几乎总是写作，那么其他的事情我只想做好，就像是在进行损害控制。我希望能处理好其他事情，同时避免过度紧张。
And you know, there's the productivity habits that are about doing the stuff that matters and protecting it. And then there's the habits that are all just about, let's not let the other stuff get out of control. You know, I find it a little bit easier. You go easier on myself when I think about it that way. Do you listen to music while you work? No. Well, the data certainly support not listening to music or if you do listen to music, listening to music without lyrics.
你知道，有些效率习惯是关于做重要的事情并保护它。而另一些习惯则是关于防止其他事情失控。我发现这样去想时，自己会放松一些。你工作时会听音乐吗？不会。数据确实支持不在工作时听音乐，或者如果你要听，就听没有歌词的音乐。
Yeah, you have to train even to get used to it, right? I mean, even to get used to music without lyrics, you got to get used to it. I guess your brain's building the filters. Some people I have met have trained themselves to work with lyrical music, which I think it took them a long time, but I met a self-published novelist who does like a million words a year, which is crazy. And he blasts because he has four kids. He blasts Metallica in NASCAR earphones.
是啊，你得经过训练才能习惯它，对吧？我的意思是，即使是习惯没有歌词的音乐，你也得慢慢适应。我想你的大脑是在建立一些“过滤器”。我认识的一些人把自己训练成能在有歌词的音乐中工作，我觉得他们花了很长时间来做到这一点。不过，我还认识一个自助出版的小说家，他一年写一百万字，这真是疯狂。他因为家里有四个孩子而用NASCAR耳机大声放Metallica的音乐。
And I think how do you possibly write like this? I think you just train his mind has just like a pure auditory filter that it's that it's he adapted, I guess, or maybe his books are that good. I don't know. But I like silence or like background noise to, but even background noise is hard. I have a hard time writing at cafes, for example. Like I really do like lack of stimuli.
我在想，你是怎么可能写出这样的作品的？我觉得你可能是通过训练，让自己的思维变成了一种纯粹的声音过滤器，也许他已经适应了，或者可能他的书真的很棒。我不知道。但是我喜欢安静，或者有背景噪音也可以，不过即使是背景噪音也很难。在咖啡店写作对我来说很困难，我确实喜欢缺乏刺激的环境。
Do you use visual blinders? You know, like some people actually do this, they'll use like a hoodie and they'll be like really trying to tunnel their vision, which makes perfect sense from the perspective of neuroscience. I mean, your visual world strongly constraints to the narrowness or the broadness of your cognitive maps.
你会使用视觉遮挡工具吗？有些人真会这样做，比如他们会戴上连帽衫，努力集中注意力，这其实是有神经科学依据的。从这个角度来看，你所看到的世界会强烈影响你认知地图的宽窄程度。
Yeah, I mean, I just have my spaces engineered, right? So like where I write in my library at home, all the interesting windows are like behind me and over here. I'm staring across to windows. It just goes right next to the neighbors and like just typically blinds down. But as you say this, it just makes me want to, you know, shout that, you know, so many people who think they have attention deficit issues have probably just put themselves in compromised environments, which include smartphone apps and things that so I mean, like there's absolutely no way that they ought to be able to focus. In fact, perhaps the fact that it can focus at all is miraculous given the constraints like trying to run with shackles on.
是啊，我是说，我对自己的空间进行了设计。在我家里的图书馆里写作时，所有有趣的窗户都在我的背后，而我面对的窗户只是正对着邻居，一般来说窗帘都是放下的。但是当你这么说时，我就想要喊出来，很多自认为有注意力缺陷的人，可能只是把自己置于不利的环境中，比如智能手机应用和其他干扰物。从而，他们几乎无法集中注意力。事实上，在这种约束条件下还能集中注意力，简直就像带着镣铐跑步一样神奇。
Yeah, I mean, look, we're used to this with physical stuff, right? If we analogize to physical fitness, we're so used to all these details, right? Like it matters like what you're eating, like how you're sleeping, the details of how you train and when you train and how much. Like, we're very used to this idea that that really matters. We have no intuitions for cognitive development or application. We treat our brain, I guess because we associate it so much with a sense of self is just this sort of an effable connection to us as a person. We don't think of it as much of an organ as like a muscle or something like this.
是的，我的意思是，你看，对于身体上的事情我们已经很习惯了，对吧？如果我们拿身体健康来做比喻，我们对所有这些细节都非常熟悉，比如你吃什么、怎么睡觉、训练的细节、什么时候训练和训练的量，这些都很重要。我们已经习惯了这些概念，它们确实很重要。但是对于认知发展或应用，我们没有这样的直觉。我们对待大脑的方式可能是因为我们太常把它和自我联系在一起，因此我们把大脑视为与我们作为一个人紧密相连的某种难以言喻的东西。我们不太把大脑看作一个器官，比如像肌肉这样的东西。
But we don't have a sophisticated vocabulary at all for thinking about how do you do stuff with your brain, which is the if you're in knowledge work, that's the whole game. Like the whole game is this brain takes an information, adds value to it. It alchemizes value out of out of mind stuff. And people who who alchemize value out of, you know, muscles, I'm a relief pitcher in baseball, I know like my whole job is like to take a certain muscles on my kinetic chain and use them to move a ball very fast. And if I really am very careful about this, I can have a multi-million dollar deal.
我们根本没有一个复杂的词汇来描述如何用大脑来完成任务。如果你从事知识型工作，这就是全部的重点。这个过程就是通过大脑接收信息，并在其上增加价值。大脑就像是把思维中的东西转化为价值的炼金术。而那些通过使用肌肉来创造价值的人，比如说我是一个棒球比赛中的救援投手，我的全部工作就是运用一连串特定的肌肉，把球投得非常快。如果我非常注意这个过程，我就可以获得数百万美元的合同。
Those of us who do this with our brain don't have any of these intuitions. It's just like, you know, you have to work hard, you know, and we're on our phone all day. I mean, this has to be the physical equivalent. If you had like an endurance athlete who's smoking all the time, like this is crazy, like this is directly contra-intercating or indicating what you need to do, what matters, like what the actual activity is that matters for your value production. But with cognitive stuff, we have no intuition like this.
我们这些用脑力工作的人并没有这样的直觉。就像你知道的那样，我们必须努力工作，而且我们整天都在使用手机。这就像是，如果有一个耐力运动员一直在吸烟，这太疯狂了，因为这完全与他需要做的事情相反，影响了他真正需要做的活动，这些活动才是对他的价值产生有意义的。但对于脑力劳动，我们并没有这样的直觉。
Yeah, when I was a junior professor, this was down in San Diego, not Stanford, my girlfriend at the time. She said to me, she said, you're like a professional athlete. That was before I got tenure. And she was like, you're trying to go from like minor leagues to major to go from, you know, you're like second string to starter. Yeah. So you have to treat what you're doing, like a professional athlete with their game, like prioritize sleep, prioritize food, prioritize time, prioritize, you know, and we, as you point out, we don't do that with the mind.
是这样的，当我还是一名助理教授时，那是在圣地亚哥，而不是斯坦福。我当时的女朋友对我说， "你就像个职业运动员。" 那时我还没有拿到终身职位。她的意思是，你就像要从小联盟进入大联盟的选手，就像从替补变成首发。所以你必须像职业运动员对待自己的比赛一样对待你的工作，优先考虑睡眠、饮食、时间等。正如你所指出的，我们并不总是这样对待自己的大脑。
We tend for cognitive stuff. We tend to assume that we just flip a switch and like focus time. And I think that's in part because there are certain things such as social media, such as a great movie, such as certain social interactions that can immediately and completely harness our attention. Yeah. Unlike a marathon or where sure I could probably finish the 26 miles or wherever it is, 26.23. I forget what it is. If I had to do it right now to save my life, but it's not like I can just hit a switch.
我们常常对认知类的事情有一种倾向，以为我们只要按下一个开关就可以进入专注模式。我觉得这部分是因为有些东西，比如社交媒体、一部好电影、或是一些社交互动，可以立刻并完全吸引我们的注意力。对比之下，像马拉松这样的事情，我可能能跑完26英里（或是26.23英里，我忘了具体是多少）来保命，但并不是我能轻松按下一个开关就能做到的。
And I think that's the kind of caveat here is that the kid that loves video games can definitely focus. Yeah. Give him or her a video game they love and boom, they're focused. So it seems as if there's a problem when they can't, but they know they can. Right? It's stuff's obvious when one states it, but I think it's worth pointing out that this stuff needs attention. It needs work. Yeah. Which means and it starts with vocabulary. It starts with intentions, starts with examples.
我认为这里的关键在于，那些喜欢电子游戏的孩子确实是能够专注的。给他们一款他们喜欢的游戏，他们立马就能全神贯注。所以问题似乎在于，当他们无法专注于其他事情时，他们自己也知道其实是可以做到的。虽然这些道理一说出来就显而易见，但我觉得指出这一点很有必要。这需要关注，需要努力。这意味着要从词汇入手，从意图入手，从例子入手。
You know, I mean, there should be a book like how to think that we just give to everyone gets to learn and learn. Yeah. Like how to use your brain, like the user manual. You know, like that would be a very useful user manual. And I think in like elite cognitive professions, this gets handed down as lore and people figure it out. Right? I mean, like this was like my experience training at MIT in the theory group is that, you know, everything was focused on getting the most out of your mind.
你知道吗，我是说，应该有一本书教我们如何思考，然后发给每个人去学习。就像教你怎么使用大脑的用户手册。你知道，这会是一本非常有用的手册。我认为在一些精英的认知职业中，这类知识是作为经验传承下来的，大家会自己摸索出来。举个例子，我在麻省理工学院的理论小组训练时，就有这样的感受，一切都集中在如何充分发挥大脑的潜力。
And so it's being passed down from, you know, person to person. It was also in the culture. It was in the way that people acted, but most places that do cognitive work don't have these don't have these cultures. Yeah. But here's the advantage though. Here's the silver lighting. Right? If you're one of the few cares about it, it's a huge advantage right now. Like it's a it's a big part of like my success. I don't think I have the highest horsepower brain, but like it I care a lot about trying to, you know, get the most out of it, like to push it to like the edges of like the reps I can actually RPMs, I can actually get out of it, you know?
这段话的意思是：这种东西是通过人与人之间传递下来的，它也体现在文化中，也就是人们的行为方式中。但大多数从事认知工作的地方并没有这种文化。不过，这里有一个好处。如果你是少数几个在意这种传承的人之一，这就是一个巨大的优势，就像对我成功的影响很大一样。我并不认为自己有最强的思维能力，但我非常在意如何充分利用它，尽力将其推到自己的极限。
So it's an advantage as, you know, someone who's listening to this, you start caring about your brain, how it works, how you want to take care of it, what you want to get out of it, you start caring about this. You're going to get advantages compared to the person right next to you. Like suddenly in your office or, you know, in your grad program, it's going to be like, well, it's going on here. Yeah. Yeah. Super power. And sometimes there's a bit of a social cost up front. Yeah. When I made the shift from being a, let's just call it a not serious student to a serious student in college, and I was coming from behind, I had to put so many more hours in. And so parting was this something happened fairly seldom. I still did it, but and it was isolating. Yeah. Actually lived alone in a studio apartment. I mean, it's isolating. You're you're going to miss out on certain things.
所以，作为一个在听这个的人，这对你来说是个优势。你开始关心你的大脑，它是如何运作的，你想如何照顾它，以及你想从中得到什么。和你身边的人相比，你会获得一些优势。在办公室或者研究生项目中，可能会突然有人说：“哇，这里发生了什么？” 这就像是超级能力。当然，有时一开始会有一些社交成本。当我从一个不认真的大学生转变为一个认真的学生时，我是从落后的位置开始的，所以我不得不投入更多的时间去学习，因此聚会就变得很少。我仍然会参加，但确实有些孤立。我当时一个人住在一个单间公寓里。这种改变确实让人感到孤独，因为你会错过一些事情。
There's some deprivation there, but you eventually end up in a position to do far more with your life. Yeah. Of course. What you said a moment ago also reminds me, David Goggins, the David Goggins, no introduction needed, has been quoted as saying, you know, it's easy nowadays to be exceptional because so many people are just distracted and wasting their time. So you put in 20% more effort to being more focused or toward your fitness program, and you're going to, you're going to surpass many, many people. Yeah. So it's not that hard to accelerate is just it takes some practices that are socially challenging to implement.
那里有一些匮乏，但最终你会处于一个能够更好地把握生活的位置。是的，当然。你刚才说的话也让我想起了大卫·戈金斯，他无需介绍，被引用说过，现在要变得出色其实很容易，因为很多人都分心并浪费时间。如果你在专注或健身计划上多投入20%的努力，你就会超越很多人。因此，要加速并不难，只是需要一些在社交上具有挑战性的实践。
It's funny. I had that same experience as an undergrad that you had. Yeah. Because I cared. I was impatient to be done with college and like to do things with my brain. I want to be a writer. I want to be an academic, but you know, that takes a lot of work. And I really cared a lot about it. So I was, I was a fraternity brother for one day. And I went to the first meeting where they're doing you know, he just held a pledging or whatever. And I remember that I just, not for me. And I walked away. It's like I'm not going to because this is going to be distracting like the hangovers and this and that. And you know, I want to focus on writing. I want to learn how do this. It is pretty isolating. Yeah.
这很有趣。我在大学时也有和你一样的经历。是的，因为我在乎。我急于完成大学学业，想用我的头脑去做一些事情。我想成为一名作家，我想成为一名学者，但这需要很多努力。而且我对此非常在意。所以我曾经加入过兄弟会，但只待了一天。我参加了第一次会议，他们在那里举行了一些入会活动之类的。我记得这事情不适合我，于是我退出了。我觉得参与这些会让我分心，比如宿醉之类的事情。我想专注于写作，想学习如何做到这点。这的确很孤独。
And I know some people that were in the Greek system that also benefited tremendously from that. I wasn't one of them. But I definitely resonate with it. Yeah. So not everyone. Yeah. I mean, they don't all have to be as intense as you and I were. But caring about your brain, it gives you a lot of options. And if you're playing catch up, it there's almost always a social cost associated with it. But you eventually are joined by many other people. You find the other nerds. There's a lot of nerds. The other nerds, misfits and people who were, you know, seeking something, they come around. You find, you find them.
我认识一些参与希腊社团体系的人，他们也从中受益良多。我自己不是其中之一，但我非常能理解这种感受。所以并不是人人都一样。我是说，他们不一定要像你我这样投入。但关心自己的头脑会给你带来很多选择。如果你在赶上进度，总是会有一些社会代价。但最终你会发现，很多其他的人加入你的行列。你会找到其他“书呆子”。有很多“书呆子”。那些其他的书呆子、不合群的人，以及在寻找某种东西的人，他们会出现。你会找到他们。
I'm interested in this concept of burnout. Yeah. We hear about burnout. We associate with it too much adrenaline lack of sleep tired and wired feeling disengaged. The poet David White has a beautiful poem. I forget the title about burnout where he says that I think the cure to burnout is wholeheartedness. And I always like that. It's a bit more abstract than the kinds of things we're talking about today. But I like that because there's something about wholeheartedness really leaning into something with the true desire to be there and to explore it no matter how hard that is the opposite extreme of burnout.
我对“倦怠”这个概念很感兴趣。我们常听到关于倦怠的信息，并将其与过多的肾上腺素、缺乏睡眠、疲惫和紧张、感到失去兴趣联系在一起。诗人戴维·怀特有一首关于倦怠的美丽诗篇，我忘了标题，他在诗中提到，我认为治愈倦怠的方法是全心全意。我总是喜欢这样说。虽然这比我们今天谈论的内容更抽象，但我喜欢这样的说法，因为全心全意地投入某件事情，真正地渴望在那里，去探索，无论多么困难，这恰恰是倦怠的反面。
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think burnout in, if we're thinking knowledge, we're people with office jobs. My diagnosis there, it's not exactly quantity of work that does play a role. It's the kind of work because I think what's happening, what's been deranging actually for people in these jobs is workloads are getting larger, right? In part because communication is low friction and we always want to be demonstrating activity because of pseudo productivity and people are always asking us to do things we say yes.
我觉得，如果我们考虑知识型工作或者办公室工作的话，倦怠问题并不仅仅是工作量的问题，尽管这也有一定影响。更重要的其实是工作的性质。实际上，令人感到压力与困扰的原因在于我们的工作负担越来越大。这部分是因为沟通变得更加便捷，我们总是希望通过表现出活跃来证明自己的生产力，显得自己很忙碌。因此，当别人要求我们做事情的时候，我们总是说“好”。
Everything we say yes to brings with it administrative overhead, right? Which is talking about the thing we're not actually doing. So it's like emails about the commitment. It's a meetings about the commitment. Because our workloads are larger. What happens then is more and more of our time has to service this administrative overhead because everything we say yes to brings with it its own overhead. It adds up at aggregates, right? So now more and more of our day is spent talking about work and not actually doing the work and then make it even worse.
我们对每件事情说“是”的时候，都伴随着一定的行政负担，对吧？这意味着我们花时间在那些我们实际上并未真正做的事情上。比如与承诺相关的邮件，以及与承诺相关的会议。因为我们的工作量增加了，于是我们更多的时间不得不用于处理这些行政负担，因为每个“是”都意味着更多的负担。这些负担不断累积，对吧？所以现在我们每天更多的时间花在谈论工作上，而不是实际去做工作，这使情况更加糟糕。
It's not like this overhead is all batched together. It's sort of spread out throughout your day. So it's also putting you in that state of constant distraction, which makes it hard to do work. What I think is burning people out is they're now in this state where they're saying I'm spending most of my day talking about work, sending emails, attending meetings. Very little time is left to actually make progress on the work and then the workload gets larger and larger. This by itself is deranging, right? This it feels like you're in some sort of nihilistic experiment. Like what is this? Why do I have six hours in meetings? I'm not actually just can't be the right way to work.
这并不是说这些额外工作量是一次性完成的，而是分散在你的一整天里。这让你处于一种持续分心的状态，从而很难专注于工作。我认为让人感到疲惫的是，人们发现自己大部分时间都花在讨论工作、发送电子邮件、参加会议上。留给实际推进工作的时间非常少，而且工作量越来越大。这本身就让人感到疯狂，对吧？这感觉像是一种虚无主义的实验。像这样工作到底是什么目的？为什么我要有六个小时都泡在会议中？这绝对不是正确的工作方式。
And then what happens of course is you have to recover time in the morning and the afternoon, maybe after your kids go to bed, they try to actually make progress. So now you also have just a straight work quantity issue. So you're working more hours. There's an energy drain, but I think that psychological piece of this can't possibly make sense. Like I'm checking email once every two minutes and spent six hours in Zoom, like doing very little actual high value work.
当然，接下来你需要在早上和下午找时间来补足，可能是在孩子们睡觉之后，这样才有可能真正取得进展。但这样一来，你就面临了工作量的问题。也就是说，你工作时间更长，精力被消耗，不过我觉得心理上的问题更让人费解。比如说，我每两分钟查看一次邮件，花了六个小时在Zoom上，但几乎没有完成任何真正有价值的工作。
Like this can't be the right way to work. That's what I think the burnout epidemic right now is coming from is that psychological component of we all know this is stupid, but no one is saying the emperor has no clothes on. We all know that the amount of email and meetings I'm doing is such a waste of my salary. Like this is a highly trained brain.
这不可能是正确的工作方式。我认为当前流行的职业倦怠就是因为这种心理因素。我们都知道这样的工作方式很愚蠢，但没有人指出皇帝没穿衣服。我们都明白，花大量时间处理邮件和开会完全浪费了我的薪水，毕竟我可是经过高度训练的脑袋。
Like I could be writing these reports or this code or creating these business strategies, but we're all just accepting this. I think the absurdity of the current situation is creating as much of the burnout as it is, just we also have to add these extra hours. There's just like a straight aggregation of work quantity. It's almost analogous to taking professional athletes or would-be professional athletes and having them do a bunch of other physical labor so that they're showing up not fresh for the game and little micro injuries and distracted and no one's admitting that this doesn't make sense and everyone's just getting injured and no one's talking about it.
就像我可以在写这些报告或者代码，或者制定商业策略，但我们全都在默默接受这种状况。我认为当前局面的荒诞程度正在导致越来越多的职业倦怠，因为我们还不得不加班。这就好比工作量在不断直线累积。就像是让职业运动员或者准职业运动员去做大量其他体力劳动，这样他们在比赛时就不能保持最佳状态，还可能有微小的伤病和注意力分散。然而却没有人承认这种做法不合逻辑，结果每个人都在受伤，但没有人对此发表意见。
So it's the absurdity of it would drive people crazy and it is driving people crazy. It's so difficult though because certain things like smartphones are very useful on the hospital ward. I mean doctors can communicate nurses communicate so much faster now. Parents and kids can communicate who's going to pick up the kids and nope got stuck in traffic you go this way alternate route on Google maps and on and on. So it's all woven in with stuff that's that's also highly adaptive. It makes it tough.
所以，这种荒谬感会让人抓狂，而且已经在让人抓狂了。但事情很复杂，因为像智能手机这样的东西在医院病房里非常有用。我是说，医生和护士之间的交流速度加快了很多。家长和孩子也可以通过手机沟通，比如说谁去接孩子，或者通知对方堵车了，走这条路，用谷歌地图导航等等。这些东西与生活中非常实用的东西交织在一起。这确实让事情变得困难。
Yeah. You know it's almost like the work of being a selective filter is half the work of trying to deload the cognitive systems that would allow you to do deep work. Yeah. Well in the workplaces even harder than that right because because part of the issue is email and slack. Let's just say digital communication. I spent a lot of time studying that closely right from like a technocratic standpoint the introduction of digital communication to the workplace and the problem there is the reason why we're checking this all the time.
是的。你知道，这几乎就像做一个选择性过滤器的工作，实际上是为了减轻认知系统的负担，而认知系统能让你进行深入工作。在职场中，这比想象中更难，因为其中一部分问题在于电子邮件和Slack，我们可以统称为数字通信。我花了很多时间，从技术管理的角度深入研究数字通信在工作场所的引入问题。我们之所以一直查看这些工具，是因为其中的问题。
It's not some like individual habit de-optimization. It's not oh I should just check this less often. What happened is when we introduced low friction digital communication to the office this emerging consensus came about that said great let's just use ad hoc messaging as our major way of collaborating. Like we can just figure things out on the fly. I can just be like Andrew what's going on with the whatever and you can answer me and I can send it back. This was very convenient the activation cost was low and so this is how we began actually collaborating on work.
这不是某种个体习惯的退化，也不是简单地少查看几次就能解决的问题。问题在于，当我们在办公室引入低门槛的数字化沟通方式时，产生了一种新的共识，认为可以主要依靠临时消息进行协作。我们觉得可以随时解决问题，比如我可以问Andrew关于某个项目进展如何，然后你可以回复我，我再回应你。这种方式非常方便，操作成本非常低，因此我们就这样开始实际地进行工作协作。
Now what happens is as workloads get higher we now have many things at the same time they're all generating these asynchronous back and forth conversations. Most of these have some sort of time sensitivity right so if I email you and say like what's going on with like the guest coming later today we have to kind of resolve this before later today. So now it's not just that these messages are going back and forth with all these different threads but I have to keep checking my inbox to make sure the gap's not too big.
当工作负荷增加时，我们多了很多事情需要同时处理，它们都会产生这些异步的来回对话。大多数情况下，这些对话都是有时间紧迫性的。比如，如果我发邮件给你，问你今天晚些来的客人情况如何，我们需要在今天晚些前解决这个问题。所以，现在不仅仅是这些信息在不同的线程中来回发送，我还得不断查看我的收件箱，以确保不会遗漏重要信息，避免时间间隔过长。
This is not a failure of habits it's not a moral failure. It's necessitated by the fact that all these back and forth conversations have to keep moving forward. So it is difficult then if you're in this system to step out by yourself because this is the way we're collaborating is these asynchronous back and forth messages and I can't disengage myself from that without slowing things down like a mathematical game theory point of view it's a suboptimal Nash equilibrium.
这不是习惯的失败，也不是道德的失败。这是因为所有这些来回的对话都必须不断向前推进所造成的。因此，如果你在这个系统中，就很难自己脱身，因为我们现在的合作方式是这种异步的来回消息传递。如果我想要退出，就会拖慢进度。从数学博弈论的角度来看，这是一种次优的纳什均衡。
It's not the right place not the right way to run this to the utility value this configuration is low but no one individual can deploy a different strategy that's going to be higher value. We're stuck in it right and so now it becomes really hard for an individual just to say I want to check my email as often. It's built in systemically into this hyperactive hive mind workflow and the only way to break free from the suboptimal configuration is to basically have the organization itself do like a really high cost change to the rules of the game. These are how we're collaborating now. We're not using email freely anymore. We're going to use this system instead here. It's a very expensive top down procedure to free ourselves from the suboptimality. It's like in the world of work that's partially why this is such an intractable problem.
这不是合适的地点，也不是合适的方法来运行这个配置，这个配置的效用价值很低，但是没有一个人能够部署一个更高价值的策略。我们被困在这个状况中，所以现在对个人来说，仅仅想要限制查看邮件的频率都变得很难。这个问题系统性地嵌入到了这种过度活跃的团队工作流程中。唯一能突破这个次优配置的方法，基本上就是需要组织本身做出一项代价高昂的改变，即改变游戏规则。我们现在要这样合作，不再随意使用电子邮件，而是改用其他系统。这个自上而下的程序成本很高，以摆脱次优配置。这在工作世界中部分解释了为什么这个问题如此棘手。
I tried to write a book about this recently and it was really hard to gain traction because it's not easy to solve this like no individual can move out of this and you have to put in a lot of energy as an organization to try to change this. In some sense email is a more insidious problem than social media on the phone because at least over here this is my engagement with this and I might have these moderate behavioral addictions but I could make differences here. In my company this is much worse. This is like a systemic problem. It's an emergent deterministic work impact on an economic social cultural system that was completely dynamical and went in a way we didn't really expect. It's a really tough situation sometimes especially in the world of work.
我最近尝试写一本关于这个问题的书，但很难引起关注。因为要解决这个问题并不容易，没有一个人能独自摆脱这个困境，你得作为一个组织投入大量精力去试图改变这一现状。在某种程度上，电子邮件的问题比手机上的社交媒体更加隐蔽。至少在这方面，我能通过自己的方式接触并可以对这些适度的行为上瘾做出改变。但在我的公司，这个问题更加严重。它像是一个系统性的问题，是对一个经济、社会、文化系统的突发性和确定性的工作影响，这个系统完全是动态的，走向了我们未曾预料的方向。在职场中，这有时真的是一个非常艰难的局面。
How do we get out of this constant distraction? I wrote deep work and I was like well why don't people just do this? That's why they don't just do this because it's not so easy to reclaim this time. It's like when I was a graduate student in postdoc I was focused on eating pretty well meaning clean-ish food and people talked less about that at that time. I was also really committed to exercise and so I was 16. People were less committed to that in the academic sector at that time. Now I think it's commonplace for people like I'm going to my yoga class I'm doing my zone to cardio. I go to the gym. Men and women do this. I remember having like this like sneak off to the gym. You felt like a bit of an oddball if you were the one bringing your lunch to the pizza lunch and not there's any wrong pizza. Love pizza. I was trying to eat well.
我们该如何摆脱这种持续的分心呢？我曾写过一本书叫《深度工作》，当时我想：人们为什么不这样做呢？后来发现并不是那么容易重拾这些时间。就像我还是研究生和博士后时，我很注重健康饮食，也就是吃得比较干净，那时人们对这些话题的关注还不算多。我还非常坚持锻炼身体，而那时学术界对此的重视程度也不高。如今，很多人习以为常地去上瑜伽课、进行有氧运动或去健身房，无论男女。我记得我以前上健身房还得偷偷摸摸的，如果是带自己的午餐去参加披萨午餐会的时候，会让人觉得有些奇怪，并不是说披萨有什么不好，我也喜欢披萨，只不过我在努力吃得更健康。
I have for a long time. I feel better when I do and I'm grateful that I did. But you get some weird looks like out you have an eating disorder or something like that. That's what people would say then. Now people will probably look and that looks better than the pizza. People start to understand. I think there needs to be a cultural shift and I think there has been a cultural shift around food and exercise. Certainly food, meditation, sleep. I think people are far more accepting and actually encouraging of their workers and co-workers taking really good care in order to function better for longer. I think it's going to be the next revolution and it's going to be a revolution. It's going to unlock talking on the scale of like a trillion dollar GVP.
我已经这样做了很长时间。当我这样做时，我感觉更好，我很感激自己这样做了。不过，有些人会用奇怪的目光看你，仿佛你有饮食失调之类的问题。在过去，人们可能会这样说。而现在，人们可能会觉得这比披萨看起来还好。人们开始理解。我认为在饮食和锻炼方面需要进行文化转变，而且这种转变已经发生了。尤其是在饮食、冥想和睡眠方面。我认为人们对员工和同事更能接受并实际鼓励他们好好照顾自己，以便更长久地保持良好状态。我觉得这将是下一场革命，并且是一场革命。这将激发像万亿美元规模的国内生产总值这样的讨论。
When we go through knowledge work and have this revolution, I call it like the cognitive revolution. Let's take really seriously how the brains of our workers work. These are our number one assets, not to be too mechanistic about it. But what is our main capital asset if we're a knowledge work organization? We have some buildings, but it's really these brains that we have like employment contracts with. These brains create value. Let's take seriously how the brains actually operate. And as soon as we do, we'll say, oh my god, these brains are checking email once every two minutes. What a disaster. It's like if we had a car factory and we spent $20 million on one of these German robots that can put cars on the doors or whatever.
当我们经历知识工作的变革时，我称之为认知革命。让我们认真考虑一下员工大脑的运作方式。这些大脑是我们的头号资产，我们不应过于机械化地看待这个问题。如果我们是一家知识型组织，什么是我们的主要资本资产？当然，我们有一些建筑物，但真正重要的是那些与我们签订了雇佣合同的大脑。这些大脑创造了价值。所以，让我们认真对待大脑的实际运作方式。一旦我们这么做，我们会发现，这些大脑每两分钟就查看一次电子邮件。这是多么糟糕啊。就好像我们有一个汽车工厂，花了2000万美元买了一台德国机器人来安装汽车车门或者其他东西。
And we just weren't taking care of it. And it was like rusty and it was dropping the doors and the production pipeline was going down. We said, this is crazy. We got to take care of this equipment, right? When we have the cognitive revolution, the sort of cognitive capital revolution in knowledge work, I think it's going to unlock a trillion dollar GVP. I think that's how unproductive we've been. If we just think in the pure raw terms of brains producing stuff that's worth money, like it's super deterministic and kind of inhumane about it, so much as being lost because we're in the suboptimal mass equilibrium, everyone just email everyone all the time.
我们当时对设备疏于维护，以至于它开始生锈、门松动，生产线也在下滑。我们意识到这样很不合理，必须好好维护这些设备。在知识工作的认知革命和认知资本革命到来时，我认为这会释放出数万亿美元的潜在价值。这让我们意识到我们之前有多么低效。如果我们仅仅从大脑生产有价值产品的角度来看，现在的状况是非常低效而且不太人性化的。由于大家一直处于这种不理想的普遍状态中，彼此不断通过邮件沟通，许多潜力都被浪费了。
Everyone's just on slack all the time. That when we finally have the revolution to get over that, it's going to be a massive economic hit. And AI might play a role in this, right? Because maybe AI wants to get planning capabilities is going to be able to take the burden of some of this back and forth planning. I think it's easier to get there with cultural shifts. I don't think we have to wait to build an email capable chat GPT to do this. Like you could solve this tomorrow. This is cultural as much as this tool based. But I think it's going to be a huge revolution when we get there akin to like the assembly line in manufacturing, which was like a 10X improvement in productivity metrics.
每个人一直都在使用Slack。一旦我们进行革新来改变这种状况，将会对经济产生巨大的影响。人工智能可能在其中扮演一定角色，因为它或许能获取计划能力，减轻一些来回沟通的负担。我认为通过文化的转变更容易实现这一点，而不必等到构建一个具备电子邮件功能的ChatGPT。其实明天就能解决这个问题，这既是文化问题也是工具问题。但我认为当我们达到目标时，将会发生一场巨大的革命，就像制造业中的流水线一样，相当于生产力提高了10倍。
When we figured out the continuous motion, the assembly line with interchangeable parts was a massive. It created this productivity engine. I'm using the economics and so productivity now, you know, dollars per worker. The economic miracle that came from this process-based industrial innovations in the late 19th, early 20th century, the money generated by that, the wealth generated by that was the foundation of the modern west. Like the whole world as we know it was built. There's these huge latent potentials. Right now, I don't think we're there with the brain. I think it's going to be a huge revolution. It's just difficult. It's not an easy revolution to start. I think it's going to change whole industries in ways that it's going to be hard to even imagine.
当我们弄清楚连续运动时，具有可互换零件的装配线成为了一项巨大创新。它创造了一个生产力引擎。我从经济学的角度出发，现在用每名工人创造的经济价值来衡量生产力。 这种基于流程的工业创新在19世纪末和20世纪初带来了经济奇迹，由此产生的金钱和财富成为现代西方的基础。我们所熟知的整个世界都是基于此建立的。在这个过程中蕴藏着巨大的潜力。而目前，我认为我们在大脑的研究上还没达到那种水平。我认为这将会引发一次巨大的变革，但这场革命并不容易开启。它将以难以想象的方式改变整个行业。
I think as long as there are individuals who either by virtue of lack of family or other constraints or by virtue of just having more energy and requiring less sleep, because these individuals do exist out there, there will always be these individuals that can kind of apply themselves more than others in the sense that they can get in earlier and stay in later. And that trying to be them is not a good idea that we all need to optimize for our, you know, best balance of productivity, deep work, and work-life balance for lack of a better term.
我认为，只要有一些人由于缺乏家庭或其他限制，或是因为他们精力充沛、睡眠需求较少（确实有这样的人存在），就总会有这些人能够比其他人更投入于工作，他们可能会更早到达并更晚离开。但是去模仿他们并不是个好主意，我们都需要找到适合自己的最佳平衡，包括生产力、专注工作以及工作与生活的平衡。
When I was a graduate student, I was really committed to my craft. And I remember hearing about a student, he's now a professor, a very accomplished and a chronologist. I'll just give him a name because he did this thing. He doesn't know me, but I heard about this guy that had been in the department, Randy Nelson. Everyone was like, he used to work 100 hours a week. So I was like, all right, great. I'm going to start logging my work hours silently. I'm going to do 102 hours. And I ended up with a flu and an autoimmune condition. I literally had an autoimmune condition. I've never had one since I then I stopped working that much.
当我还是研究生的时候，我对自己的专业领域非常投入。我记得听说过一个学生，他现在已经是一位非常有成就的教授和时间学家。为了讲述这个故事，我们就叫他兰迪·尼尔森吧。实际上他并不认识我，但我听说在他还在系里的时候，他每周工作100个小时。于是我心想，好吧，我要默默地记下自己的工作时间，争取达到102个小时。结果我患上了流感和一个自身免疫疾病。我真的得了一个自身免疫疾病。自从我停止那样拼命工作后，我就再也没有得过这样的病了。
I started working, quote, unquote, smarter in the lines of many of the things you're saying here, although I didn't implement or know about all these tools, that time. And of course, the autoimmune thing went away. It was a fairly minor thing. I've never had it again. But you can destroy yourself simply by working more, even if it's deep work. So that the solution is not necessarily more. It's just like with exercise. I guess that stand is obvious, but I thought I'd share that anecdote because Randy Nelson taught me what I'm capable of and what I'm not capable of.
我开始“更聪明地”工作，虽然那时候我并没有使用或了解你说的所有这些工具。自然而然，我的自体免疫问题也解决了，那只是个小问题，我再也没有复发过。不过，即使是高强度的工作也可能会把你压垮，所以解决方案不一定是做更多的工作。这就像锻炼一样，我想这点很明显，但我还是想分享这个小故事，因为Randy Nelson让我明白了自己的能力和局限。
Yeah. Well, the other thing that happens, by the way, too, it's not just who's capable of working more with these advantages. There's these other unpredictable inequities. I talked to a law firm once years ago about deep work. And I was invited by a group, who's actually a group of women lawyers who had a reading group. And they said, part of what was happening at this law firm is that people who were disagreeable, just sort of gruff and jerks, would get asked to do less of what they would call non-promotable activities, or can you organize this or whatever, which meant they had more time to do deep work, which meant they would do better, and they would rise faster.
是的。另外，还有一些其他不可预见的不平等现象。这不仅仅是指谁更有能力利用这些优势去工作。我曾经与一家律师事务所讨论过深度工作。邀请我的是一个由女律师组成的读书小组。她们提到，在这家律师事务所，一些不太合群、性格粗鲁的人会被要求做较少那些被称为“没有晋升价值”的活动，比如组织会议之类的。这意味着他们有更多时间进行深度工作，从而做得更好、晋升得更快。
And then what was happening then was you had accidentally built a system that said, let's make sure we have a fast track for like our most disagreeable employees to the partnership level where actually you need to be pretty agreeable because your client acquisition is really on the partners. And so they accidentally had, you know, push towards this inequity. And these type inequities happen all the time when we leave it like haphazard. Okay, so who's doing less work? Like, well, I just sort of like, I'm gruff and people don't like me, or I have something going on at my house. It means I don't have the same time to do this.
然后，当时的情况是，你们无意中建立了一个系统，让那些最不合作的员工能快速晋升到合伙人级别，而实际上，在这个级别，你需要相当友善，因为获取客户主要依靠合伙人。因此，他们无意中推动了这种不公平的局面。这样的不公平现象经常发生，当我们随意对待事情时尤其如此。那么，谁工作少呢？就像，有的人脾气不好，别人不喜欢我，或者说，我在家里有一些事情，导致我没有同样的时间来做这些工作。
And you end up pushing people up these paths that might not be who you really want to select, because you're selecting for things that are sort of unrelated to their actual underlying talent, or like how much they can actually produce. And so I'm with you on that. Yeah, it's a complex problem, but attractable one nonetheless. I'm interested in your thoughts on remote work versus in-person work and the hybrid model. I've heard about a hybrid model recently, if anyone's a big record company here in Los Angeles, said that they require one in-person day per week unless on sick leave. They require one at home day per week. And then the other day is it's at your discretion. It's kind of an interesting model.
你最终可能会把人们推向一些其实并不是你真正想选择的路径，因为你选择的标准可能和他们的实际天赋或生产力没有多大关系。对此，我非常赞同。这是一个复杂但仍然可以解决的问题。我对远程办公、面对面办公以及混合办公模式都很感兴趣。最近我听说了一种混合办公模式，如果任何人在这里的洛杉矶一家大型唱片公司上班，他们要求每周至少有一天到公司办公（除非病假），每周有一天在家办公，剩下的一天由员工自己决定。这是一种挺有趣的模式。
For you in a five-day week model. Yeah, I mean, my proposals have thought about this a lot, is okay, if you're going to do hybrid work, and I proposed this in a Atlantic article, which recently was created, some positives, some negative waves. It's like, here's the way you should do it. Synchronize the schedule. Here's at home days, here's an office days, but for everybody, for everybody, or have a few of these schedules, but like groups of people who work together have the same schedule. But then make the rule at home days, no meetings, no email. That's the way to really get the full benefit out of hybrid work.
在一个五天工作制的模式中，对你来说，我的建议经过了深思熟虑。如果你要进行混合办公模式，我在最近发表的《大西洋月刊》文章中提出了这个想法，它引起了一些正面和负面的反响。你可以这样做：同步安排工作时间。制定在家工作的日子和在办公室工作的日子，这适用于所有人，或者针对一些人群制定几个这样的计划，让一起工作的团队有相同的时间安排。在家工作的日子要制定一个规则：不开会，不处理邮件。这样才能真正发挥混合办公的最大优势。
When we're in the office, we have meetings and we can talk about work, and we're at home, we're just doing work, and we can do it without distraction, and we can just stay deep and really turn through things. I think it would really make a big difference on the overload issue, I think it would be much more sustainable. Remote work, because I did a lot of coverage or remote work as this was first emerging in the early pandemic. There, I became convinced. I was doing this twice a month column for the New Yorker back then that was just looking at the pandemic, transforming work.
当我们在办公室时，我们会开会讨论工作，而在家里，我们就只是做工作，可以不受干扰地深入进行，真正专注地完成任务。我认为这对缓解工作过载问题会有很大帮助，使工作更可持续。在疫情初期，我做了很多关于远程工作的报道，那时候我就确信了远程工作的好处。当时我为《纽约客》杂志每月写两次专栏，探讨疫情如何转变工作方式。
I came away with the idea that remote work can be fantastic, but it's difficult. It can't just be, do the job you were doing in person, but just do it at home, and we have Zoom and we'll figure it out. If you're going to be fully remote, we have to rethink what work means for that. There's a lot of differences it needs to have. It needs to be way more structured. It probably needs to be, you're working on less things. It's very clear what you're working on. The collaboration is much more defined and much less frequent. You probably need to be freed from the hyperactive hive, my dance, if we're just emailing each other all day and in Zoom meetings all day.
我认识到远程工作可以非常棒，但也很有挑战性。远程工作不仅仅是把你线下的工作搬到家里完成，然后用Zoom解决沟通问题。如果要完全远程工作，我们需要重新思考工作的意义。远程工作需要很多不同的方式来进行。它需要更加结构化，可能意味着你要处理的事情更少，但每件事情都很明确。合作的方式要更加清晰，但频率会降低。你可能需要摆脱那种全天都在发邮件和开Zoom会议的忙乱状态。
You have to sort of reconstitute what a remote work job is, I think before it works. We know this in part because software developers pre-pandemic are one of the only knowledge sectors to have a really successful track record with remote work. That is the only sector within knowledge work where we had large companies fully remote. They did that because their jobs, they had really structured them around these agile workload management systems where, okay, here's when we talk about work, here's how long it takes, here's how we assign you new work.
在我看来，在远程工作能顺利进行之前，你需要重新定义一下远程工作的本质。我们部分知道这一点，因为在疫情之前，软件开发人员是为数不多的在远程工作上取得了成功的知识领域之一。这是知识工作中唯一一个拥有大型公司完全远程办公的领域。他们之所以能做到，是因为他们的工作已经围绕这些敏捷的工作负载管理系统进行了精心的结构化设计，比如：什么时候讨论工作、多长时间完成、以及如何分配新任务。
You work on one thing at a time, you sprint until it's done. They had all this structure around work, which didn't really matter if you were in the office or not. The less structured work is, the more free for all, the more you need we have to be in the office. I'm a huge fan of full-time remote work, but I think those jobs have to look very different than like a standard 2019 job. Yeah, I've always done a hybrid of remote work. I stick Wednesday mornings at home from the lab. Nowadays, it's wild because it's especially during the pandemic, but still now I mean, you can do the whole day in pajamas and get it worked on.
你一次只专注做一件事情，然后全速冲刺直到完成。他们为工作设立了许多规章制度，但不论是在办公室还是在家工作，这些其实并不重要。工作越是缺乏结构，越是自由散漫，就越需要我们在办公室工作。我非常支持全职远程工作，但是我觉得这些工作必须与2019年那种标准工作形式有所不同。是的，我一直以来采用远程与办公室工作相结合的方式。我通常在星期三早晨在家工作而不去实验室。尤其是在疫情期间，现在虽然不再那么严格，但情况仍然很疯狂——你可以整天穿着睡衣工作并完成任务。
I love this idea of no email and limiting text and social media while at home doing work to really extract the most out of it. Are there any data maybe from the pandemic era or prior or beyond about zoom and things like it in terms of how they enhance or diminish or perhaps have no effect on productivity? Like zoom specifically and meetings. I mean, we just found ourselves in zoom all the time for a while. That was the bigger problem. I mean, so there is data that says, for example, a hybrid meeting, some people are online, some people aren't. These are less effective meetings. They don't work as well.
我很喜欢在家工作时不使用邮件，并限制短信和社交媒体的想法，这样可以最大限度地提高效率。是否有关于在疫情期间或之前、之后有关Zoom及类似工具的数据？比如，它们在提升还是降低生产力方面的影响，或者可能没有影响？尤其是关于Zoom和开会方面的数据。我们曾在很长一段时间里经常使用Zoom，这才是个大问题。比如，有数据表明，混合会议（即部分人在线上，部分人不在线）效率较低，不如预期效果好。
But the bigger problem with zoom, I think, was the quantity. Part of it was just the technology involved. So if we're in the office together and I have a relatively quick thing to talk to you about, I can just grab you and we can talk about this. The footprint is going to be five minutes. That's not just that it's five minutes. It's five well allocated minutes because I'm probably going to use the social cues of your doors open or you're going to get coffee anyways. In the zoom era, instead we would say, well, we should set up a meeting because we have to talk about this.
我觉得Zoom更大的问题在于交流的频率和方式。部分问题源自使用的技术。如果我们在办公室一起工作，我有件比较简单的事情要和你讨论，我可以直接找到你，我们讨论的时间可能只需要五分钟。这不仅仅是五分钟，而是利用得当的五分钟，因为我会利用你门开着或者你要去拿咖啡等社交提示。在Zoom时代，我们则会说，我们应该安排一个会议，因为我们需要讨论这件事。
But if you think about a standard online calendar, it's difficult to have a meeting this less than 30 minutes long. You just have to drag it. I mean, 30 minutes is like the default smallest length meeting. So we're taking a lot of informal back and forth and inflating the time. I think that was part of it. So we just had too much zoom going on. If it was just I do one meeting a week, now it's on zoom. It used to be in person. We were all on zoom. We should all be in person. That's not that big of a deal. It's maybe like a slightly less effective meeting, but it's fine. It's good enough.
但是，如果你想想看，一个常见的在线日历，很难安排一个少于30分钟的会议。你只能拖动调整。我是说，30分钟就像是默认的最短会议时间。因此，我们把许多非正式的交流也拉长了时间。我认为这是问题的一部分。所以我们在线上会议花费了太多时间。如果我原本每周只有一次会议，现在是在Zoom上进行，以前是面对面的。我们都在用Zoom，其实大家本来应该见面开会。这并不是很大的问题，可能这种会议稍微没那么高效，但也够用了。
But if it's I have four X more meetings than I used to because of the inherent inefficiencies of having to go to prescheduled virtual for basically all collaboration, that could be a huge problem. The data I saw from Microsoft, the last data I saw was a 252% increase in these meetings from 2020 to now. And it's not a number. It's not like it peaked and then it started coming back down again once we went to hybrid. We just it's just high and it's still creeping up, right? That's a lot of time that just vanished.
但是，如果说我现在有四倍于以前的会议数量，因为几乎所有的协作都需要通过预定的虚拟会议来进行，而这本身效率就很低，那将是一个巨大的问题。我从微软看到的数据表明，从2020年到现在，这类会议增加了252%。而且，这个数字并不是像达到顶峰后又开始下降。即使我们开始采用混合办公，它仍然保持在高位，并且还在不断上升。这意味着大量时间就这样消失了。
And we sort of pretend like it didn't. But that's a lot of time that is not actively working on things and just talking about work or talking about other stuff. We get around the talking about work. I think it's a real issue. Is there a top three list of things that if you had a magic wand, you would see everyone do each day? If you had if you had three wishes, yes, you mean what they be? If these are the knowledge workers, these are the enhancing work creativity, focused work. I mean, I think you and I both clearly agree that there's not just great value in terms of productivity, but a great degree of life enrichment.
我们有点假装事情没有发生。但实际上，我们花了很多时间不是在积极地工作，而是在谈论工作或者其他事情。我们设法绕过了这些关于工作的讨论。我认为这是一个真正的问题。如果有一个三件事的清单，你希望人们每天都去做，你会选哪些？如果你有三次愿望，是什么呢？这些人是知识型工作者，他们在提升工作的创造力和专注度。我想你我都清楚地认为，这不仅在提高生产力方面有很大价值，还能极大地丰富生活。
Like a deep level of enrichment in terms of happiness, feelings of well-being, time for connectivity with others, lessons about deep work that can be exported to time with others where we are really present, etc. Just so much to be gained from these from engaging in deep work and things like it that you've written about in your various books and talk about on your podcast. Is there a top three? Yeah. Yeah. So if I do three, I would say, okay. First of all, with your workload, simulate something like a pull system instead of a push system.
就像一种深入的丰富体验，通过幸福感、整体健康、更多与他人连接的时间，以及关于深度工作的经验教训，我们可以在和他人相处时真正专注等方面获益良多。这些都是你在各种书籍和播客中谈到的深度工作的成果之一。所以你是否能总结出三点收获呢？如果要选三点的话，我会这样说：首先，在管理工作量时，尝试模拟类似“拉式系统”而不是“推式系统”的方法。
What I mean by that is when you keep track of what you're working on, have the top part of that list, which is actively working on these things and keep that top part of your list like two or three things. Everything else is in the bottom part of the list. It's to work on next and it's in an ordered queue. And so when you finish something that you're working on, you pull something new to take its slot from the list below. So what I'm trying to do with that advice is reduce all this administrative overhead.
我的意思是，当你记录你正在处理的事项时，把列表的顶部留给正在积极处理的两到三个事项。其他事项放在列表的底部，作为接下来要处理的任务，并按照顺序排列。当你完成一个任务后，就从下面的列表中挑选一个新的任务填补上去。我的建议是为了减少繁琐的管理工作。
Because now even if you can't get away, you have to say yes to these things because it's the way like your organization works. The stuff that's in the waiting to work on queue, you say, I don't have meetings about that. I don't do emails about that. I wait till I'm actively working on it. And I only actively work on three things at a time. Now I'm going to finish those things really quickly because I don't have 15 items worth of meetings I'm going to every day.
因为现在即使你不能脱身，你也必须对这些事情说“是”，因为这就是你们组织的运作方式。对于那些在待处理队列里的事情，你会说，我不开关于那些事情的会，也不为它们发邮件。我会等到我实际开始处理它们的时候再说，而且我一次只专注于处理三件事情。现在我能很快完成这些事情，因为我每天不用参加处理15个项目的会议。
So things are going to pull up there pretty quickly. And so the rate at which I'm accomplishing things will probably be higher than it was before. But I only work on three things actively. You could even make this visible. It's in a shared document if you want to. When someone asks you to do something new, tell them to put it on the end of your queue. You're like, oh, okay. So like Andrew is not working on this right now.
所以那里情况会很快好转。因此，我完成事情的速度可能会比以前更快。但我只会同时积极地处理三件事情。如果你想看，很简单，可以在共享文档中看到。如果有人要你做一件新的事情，就告诉他们把它放在你的待办事项列表的末尾。你就可以说，“哦，好吧，所以安德鲁现在还没在做这个。”
He's working on these three things. And there's seven things here. And I'm adding something number eight. So I know not to expect something for a while. In fact, I can keep checking this list until I see Andrew's working on it. So I can see it's making progress. And then once I know he's working on it, I can start email him about it. And we can do just a normal type of overhead you would have with projects, right?
他正在处理这三件事情。而这里还有七件事情。我还加上了第八件事情。所以我知道，暂时不要期待有什么结果。实际上，我可以一直查看这个清单，直到看到Andrew正在处理这件事为止。这样我就可以看到事情在推进。然后，一旦我知道他在处理这件事，我就可以开始给他发邮件讨论。接下来，我们就可以像处理项目时一样，进行一些常规的沟通。
That alone is going to have a huge difference. Like now the amount of distraction your day is going to plummet because that's generated from overhead of things you've agreed to do. And that's going to that's going to plummet that out. All right, so that'd be number one. Could I just thank you? Could I just ask a few questions about that just to clarify? So for I use myself as an example selfishly, but then of course I don't know what everyone else out there is pursuing.
那一点本身就会带来巨大的改变。比如，现在你的日常生活中的干扰会大幅减少，因为很多干扰是来自于你同意去做的各种事情的负担。而这样一来，这些干扰就会大幅减少。好吧，这就是第一点。我能否感谢你呢？我是否可以问几个问题以便澄清一下？比如，我可以以自己为例有点自私地问，但当然我不知道其他人在追求什么。
But so substitute the specifics I'm about to insert here for whatever it is that you care about in your life. So researching podcasts, yeah, solo podcasts in particular for me is my major task in life these days with respect to work. So that would be top of the list. And then there could be two other items on this top of Q would daily activities like like exercise, social time with loved ones, et cetera. Would that be included there or we're talking specifically about work? Yeah, let's just keep just work. Okay, so it'll be you know podcast prep. So you might have the podcast prep. You might have the particular topic though, right? Right. Okay, so I'm working on an episode right now about about skin health.
将具体内容替换为你生活中关心的事项。我目前主要的工作任务是研究播客，尤其是单人播客，所以这会是我列表的首位。除此之外，还可以有两项日常活动，比如锻炼，与亲人社交时间等。这些是否也包括在内，还是只谈论工作相关的？嗯，让我们只谈工作吧。所以比如说播客准备。你可能会准备播客的内容和具体的主题，对吧？对的，我现在正在制作一集关于皮肤健康的节目。
Yeah, so you could have two different episodes topics. Your prepping does could both be up there. Yep, so skin health, allergies, episode, these are two that I'm spending a lot of time on months. Yeah, in fact, yeah. And then you heard might be something that involves the media company, something on the business side of it. Like okay, we're trying to figure out a plan for whatever. Right content for new content brand association. Yeah, exactly. Okay, got it. Great. So those three would be top of the list and every day until those are done, they could sit top of the list. And then there are a number of items underneath those that fall under whatever.
好的，所以你可以有两个不同的节目主题。你准备的内容都可以放在上面。是的，比如皮肤健康、过敏等节目，这些都是我花了很多时间研究的。事实上，没错。而且你可能会听到一些涉及媒体公司、商业方面的内容，比如我们正在试图制定某个计划，比如新内容的品牌关联等，是的，完全正确。好的，明白了。太好了。所以这三个会是优先处理的事项，每天都要优先关注，直到完成为止。然后在这些之下还有许多其他事项，可以归在“其他”类中。
Yeah, and critically, when these other items come up, right? Like, oh, this is like a topic, for example, I want to do a show on you have a place to put it. It's not being forgotten or here's a business idea. Like we need to figure out like whatever we want to add do something with our camera configure. Okay, put on the list. It's not being forgotten. Like it's on there and you can see where it is. Not only is it on there, but like this could be shared among your team. So as people had extra information or things to add to one of these projects, they can add it to it on the list, right? So the information is aggregating.
对，当这些其他项目出现时，对吗？比如，有个话题我想要做一个节目，你有一个地方可以把这些想法放进去，这样它就不会被遗忘。或者说这是一个商业 idéea，我们需要弄清楚如何处理我们的相机配置。好的，把它放在列表上。这样它就不会被遗忘，它在上面，你可以看到它的位置。它不仅在列表上，而且还可以在你的团队中共享。当人们有额外的信息或要添加到这些项目中的内容时，他们可以把它添加到列表上。这样信息就会逐渐汇集起来。
So if you use a tool like Trello for this Trello spelled TREL LL. Okay, it's an app. It's a web-based service that the metaphor is just index cards and piles, right? But they're virtual. Okay, but you can flip over the index card digitally, attach files, write notes. And so I use Trello for my own organization, what I'm working on. So now you have a place where you can gather like, oh, we just I just heard about something that's relevant to this thing I need to work on. You have a place to put it. Like it goes on to the Trello card or you could do this with shared documents. Doesn't matter.
所以，如果你使用像 Trello 这样的工具，Trello 的拼写是 T-R-E-L-L-O。它是一个网络应用服务，其基本概念类似于索引卡片和堆栈，但都是虚拟的。你可以在数字卡片上翻转、附加文件、写笔记。因此，我用 Trello 来整理我自己的工作。这就给了你一个地方来收集信息，比如当你听说了和你正在处理的事情相关的信息时，你可以把它放在这里。你可以把这些信息放到 Trello 的卡片上，或者使用共享文档，方法都是一样的。
You're just like literally typing things into a Google Doc or a whiteboard or a whiteboard. Yeah, yeah, you could be we're keeping track of these things, right? I'm going to do this by the way. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm a big believer in this and then everyone can see what you're working on. And then the key thing is if it's not in your active list, you don't have meetings about it and you don't have emails about it, right? Like if people have ideas or things, they just add it to the card. So when that gets up to the active list, we can work on all the information there. We haven't forgotten anything.
你就像是在谷歌文档或白板上敲字一样。是的，是的，你可能是会记录这些事情，对吧？顺便说一下，我会这样做。我非常相信这一点，因为这样大家都能看到你在做什么。而关键是，如果某件事情不在你的活动列表上，你就不需要开会讨论，也不需要发电子邮件。如果有人有想法或建议，他们只需要把它添加到卡片上。当它进入活动列表时，我们就可以处理所有在上的信息，没有遗漏任何东西。
And what two word language do you use to describe this first point, this method? I love this. I called it a pole-based pole-based. Right. What gets me pulled up? You pull into the so you're fixing it advance. Here's how much concentration I have to give on work and you pull stuff into that. The alternative is push-based, which is how most organizations run, which is when I want you to do something, I just push it on to you and now you have to deal with it. Got it. I once heard email described as a public post to do list.
你用哪两个词来描述这个第一点，这个方法？我很喜欢这个。我称它为“拉动式”。对吧。我是怎么被吸引住的？你事先安排好，决定在工作上投入多少注意力，然后把任务拉进去。而另一种是“推送式”，大多数组织都是这样运作的，就是当我想让你做某件事时，我直接把任务推给你，然后你必须处理它。我曾听过一种说法，把电子邮件形容为一个公开的待办事项清单。
Yeah, that made me scared of email in a way that nothing else had. Yeah. It's new ports, pole-based system. I called it that by the way. This is what in a lot of the advice in the first one of the chapters of the new book is basically how do you get away with implementing this when you have a boss? And there's like all sorts of different. So you're your own boss. You can just say this is what we're doing. Here's the board, but there's a lot of subtle ways. Sure. You can do this. Yeah. Right. So that's number one. That's number one. The Cal Nuke words pole-based system.
好的，这确实让我对电子邮件产生了一种前所未有的恐惧感。这是一个新的端口和基于投票的系统。顺便说一下，这是我给它起的名字。在新书的一个章节中，大部分建议都围绕着如何在有老板的情况下实施这个系统。当然，有很多不同的方法。如果你是自己的老板，你可以直接说我们要这样做，给大家看方案板就行，但其实有很多微妙的方法可以做到这点。对，这就是其中之一。这个系统叫做Cal Nuke的基于投票的系统。
I'm going to do this and I'm actually going to report back on this at some point. You won't see the post on social media because you're not there, but others will. All right. So that's one. All right. Number two would be multi-scale planning. Okay. So now this is planning. You're planning on three different scales daily, weekly, seasonally or quarterly. Have you want to think about it? Right. So you have a plan for like the semester, the season or the quarter. Like this is what I'm working on. These are the big objectives I want to hit. Here's to remind us to myself about like what matters.
我要做这件事，并且在某个时候向大家汇报进展。因为你没有在社交媒体上，所以你不会看到相关帖子，但其他人会看到。好的，这是第一点。接下来是第二点，多层次计划。就是说，你需要在三个不同的层次上进行规划：每天、每周以及季节性或季度性。可以按照你喜欢的方式思考。也就是说，你需要为学期、季节或季度做好计划，确定自己正在努力的目标和主要目标，并时刻提醒自己什么是重要的。
Like remember, like I'm overhauling my workout routine. We're trying to like do this with the podcast. You look at that scale planning every week when you build your weekly plan. And the weekly plan, it gets freeform text. You don't need anything, you know, any special tools. Your weekly plan, you're looking at the actual calendar. All right. What from my bigger scale plan, my seasonal quarterly plan? What am I trying to make sure I can make progress on this week?
记得，我正在彻底调整我的锻炼计划。我们还在尝试这样调整我们的播客。当你每周制定计划时，要查看整体规划。这个每周计划是自由格式的文本，不需要任何特殊工具。你的每周计划时，你会查看实际的日历。好，那我从更大范围的计划中，比如季节性或季度计划中，选什么内容确保本周可以取得进展呢？
And you confront the reality of your week. You see where's the empty space where there's the busy space. You also change what's on your plate right here. You know, if I cancel this thing, that frees up that whole morning, which means like I could really make progress on this, which I really want to make progress on. So great. I'm going to cancel that thing on Friday. So you're looking at the whole week is one unit. Then every day, you look at your weekly plan. Like, okay. So, so I'm going to use this when I make my plan for the day.
当你面对一周的现实时，你会看到哪些时间是空闲的，哪些是忙碌的。你也会在此时调整自己的安排。比如，如果我取消这件事，就能腾出整个上午的时间，这样我就可以在一件我非常想推进的事情上取得进展。所以，我决定取消周五的这件事。这样，你把整周视为一个整体来看待。然后，每一天，你都会查看周计划，并用它来制定当天的计划。
And when you do your daily plan, you do time blocking. Now I'm every, I'm giving a job every minute on my work day, not my day after work, but every minute on my work day, I'm time blocking. So I call it time blocking is you're literally drawing blocks around the free time. Okay, this I'm working on this, this I'm working on this. So you're making a plan for your day. That is informed by the weekly plan. So in multi scale planning, you have like the big picture things you care about trickle their way all the way down to, okay, I'm what am I going to do during this hour during the day.
当你制定每日计划时，你会使用时间划分的方法。也就是说，我在工作日的每一分钟都安排了具体的任务，但这不包括下班后的时间。时间划分就是为空闲时间划出具体的任务块，比如“这个时间我要做这个，那个时间我要做那个”。这样你就是在为一天做计划，并且这个计划是基于周计划的。通过多级规划，你可以把关注的大目标分解到每天的每个小时应该做什么上。
But you don't have to grapple every, this is what most people do. Every time I'm figuring out what to do next, I'm not grappling with all these scales at the same time. What are my objectives? What's my big plan? What's going on this week? You're dealing with each of these scales when the time is right. And so when it finally gets down to it's now three o'clock, you're just doing what that block is. And you figured out that block earlier today when you looked at your weekly plan, that weekly plan reflected what was in your semester plan, which you figured out.
但你不必每次都纠结于所有事情，而这正是大多数人常做的。每当我要决定下一步该做什么时，我并不会同时处理所有不同层面的事情。我会问自己：我的目标是什么？我的总体计划是什么？本周有什么安排？你会在合适的时间处理各个方面。所以当实际到了下午三点钟的时候，你只需进行当时安排的任务即可。而你早在今天早些时候查看你的周计划时，就已经确定了这个任务，这个周计划反映了你之前制定的学期计划内容。
You spent a whole afternoon working on at the beginning of the semester. So multi scale planning, it keeps you focused on what matters. It prevents you from wandering through your day and how you disperse your energy. And it gives you control over your time on different scales from like canceling major ongoing obligations that just be more efficient about what you do during a given day. So I swear by multi scale planning to try to keep this whole lumbering ship that is sort of like Kell Newport aiming in the towards the right shores, you know, like keep correcting and keeping it aimed back.
在学期初，你花了整个下午来处理多层次规划。这种规划方法能帮助你专注于重要的事情，防止你在一天中漫无目的地耗费精力。它还让你能够在不同层面上掌控时间，比如取消重大持续性的义务，或者提高你在一天中完成任务的效率。我非常推崇多层次规划，以帮助我把这艘庞大的船，也就是自己，朝着正确的方向前进，不断地调整和校准航向。
I love this. This is more or less what I do with my physical workouts. Every week I know I mean to get three resistance training sessions. Two or three cardiovascular training sessions. I know I'm going to train my legs once it's either going to be on depending on travel Sunday, Monday or Tuesday. I'll train torso muscles in the middle of the week. I'll train sort of a limb accessory muscles on a Saturday. Yeah. Long run on Sunday or hike on Sunday or some other day, there'll be some sort of hit workout in the middle of the week.
我喜欢这个。这大致就是我平时身体锻炼的安排。每周我都会安排三次力量训练，还有两到三次心血管训练。我会在带旅行的周日、周一或周二中的一天训练腿部。在周中的时候进行上半身肌肉训练，而在周六则专注于四肢的辅助肌肉。没错，周日会进行长跑、远足，或者换成其他日子做一些高强度间歇训练。
Yeah. Ideally there's a jog in there too. And you can adjust it a little bit based on the reality of the week. Yeah, I might double up for two days then take a day off. I have my ideal schedule, but sometimes it gets compromised. And then I do that for 16 week cycles where I vary the kind of intensity load, etc. And I've done this for years and it just kind of works for me.
好的。理想情况下，还应该包含慢跑。而且可以根据每周的实际情况稍微调整一下。对，我可能会连续跑两天，然后休息一天。我有一个理想的计划，但有时候会受到影响。然后，我每16周为一个周期，调整强度负荷等各种因素。我已经这样做了多年，对我来说效果不错。
Yeah. Now with cognitive work, I don't tend to do this. It tends to be more deadline based. Yeah. But I think that the pull-based system is really going to help. Yeah. If I dovetail it with this multi scale planning, I love this. And you can see the deadlines now. You see them coming. So that's part of what's nice about multi scale planning is you know the deadlines coming up. And so when you're doing your semester planning, you start thinking like, okay, for the big deadlines, like when I get the December, I need to be really starting getting after this thing that's going to be due.
好的。现在，对于认知类工作，我往往不会这样做，通常是基于截止日期的。但是我认为基于“拉动”的系统会有很大帮助。如果我能将其与多尺度规划结合起来，我会非常喜欢。你现在可以看到截止日期了，这就是多尺度规划的一大优点：你清楚了解即将到来的截止日期。因此，在进行学期规划时，你就会开始考虑，比如说，大的截止日期，比如到12月时，我真的需要开始认真对待即将到期的任务。
Yeah, I've got a book to do. Yeah. So then you know, and so this really helps in book writing because now when I'm planning, it's like, you know, a year in advance, I know this month, I need to get like roughly the rough draft of chapter two done. You know, and then that trickles down to my week where I'm going to make sure I have enough time clear to like, be on track for finishing it. And then that trickles into my day. Now I know to like block those mornings to work on it. So it all it all works together.
是的，我有一本书要写。所以这真的对写书很有帮助。现在当我做计划时，比如提前一年，我知道这个月我需要完成第二章的大致初稿。然后这个计划再细化到每周，我要确保有足够的时间来按进度完成。而到每天，我会把早上的时间专门留出来用来写书。这样一切都能协调运作。
An added bonus of the daily scale is I would say communication should get its own block. Email, social media, whatever that's like you communicating with the outside world goes into your time block plan. So if your block doesn't include that, you don't do it. So it's like this block is writing. It's not email, it's not social media. So the rule is really simple. I'm not going to use email or social media, but I still need to do email at some point. So I have to put a block in for it.
这个每日时间规划的一个额外好处是，我认为沟通应该有自己的时间段。不管是电子邮件、社交媒体，还是与外界交流的任何方式，都应该被安排在你的时间规划中。所以，如果你的时间段没有包括这些，那你就不去做它们。这就像说，这个时间段是用来写作的，不包含电子邮件或社交媒体。因此，规则非常简单：在这个时间段里，我不会使用电子邮件或社交媒体，但我仍然需要在某个时候处理电子邮件，那么我就必须为它安排一个专门的时间段。
And when I'm in my email blocks, I'm doing the email. If I need to go on social media to see what's going on with like the latest episode or something, I got to give that time. And then you can monofocus because then it's like psychological hack. But basically when you particularly, when you schedule communication and distraction, now the only thing you have to muster willpower to do is obey the single rule of I'm following my blocks. If you don't do that, if you're like I just sometimes do email and social media sometimes I don't.
当我按照时间安排处理邮件的时候，我就专注于处理邮件。如果我需要上社交媒体查看最新的剧集或其他信息，那也需要特别安排时间。这样你就能专注于单一任务，因为这是一种心理技巧。简单来说，当你特别为沟通和分心的事情安排时间时，你唯一需要的是遵守规律，确保自己按照时间安排来进行活动。如果不这样做，比如有时处理邮件，有时刷社交媒体，就很难维持专注。
Now what you have to do is just constantly be having this debate is now the right time to do this. And now I'm going to do it at some point today. Why not now? Well, what about now? What about now? Like you're just constantly asking yourself, right? That's impossible, right? That's going to drain you. But if all you have to do instead is say my commitment today is to follow my blocks. And I get I really feel good when I do it.
现在你需要做的就是不断地问自己，现在是合适的时间去做这件事情吗？我打算今天某个时候去做，为什么不是现在呢？现在怎么样？现在怎么样？这样不停地问自己，对吧？这样不太可能做到，对吧？这会让你感到疲惫。但如果你只需要这样做：今天我承诺遵循我的计划。我发现这样做让我感觉很好。
And like I check off a box if I do give yourself some feedback here. It's a much easier cognitive battle to win than just trying to be reasonable about well, let me wait a little longer to check my email. Like you're going to lose that battle, you know, eight times out of 10, which is like enough to really overcome it. So that's like a hidden bonus of time blocking is now you can really get your arms around separating different cognitively distinct activities.
就像在完成任务时打勾一样，如果你在这里给自己一些反馈，这是一个相对更容易赢得的认知战斗，而不是仅仅尝试合理地对待，比如，好吧，我再等等再查看我的电子邮件。因为这种战斗你可能八次中会有八次输，因此值得我们真正努力去克服。所以时间管理有一个隐藏的好处，那就是你可以更清楚地分开不同的认知活动。
This is where the analogy of time restricted eating comes to mind. Again, not that that's the best way to lose weight or maintain weight or it's rolling longevity is still debated, et cetera. But I think for many people, not all, but for many people, the decision that they do not eat during certain time blocks and they do eat another time blocks is just far more tractable in the real world for them than trying to limit portion size decide whether or not they're going to eat or they're going to pass the cookie and have a little bit.
这让我想到了时间限制饮食的比喻。再次强调，这并不是最佳的减肥或维持体重的方法，它对于延长寿命的效果仍然有争议等。但我认为，对于许多人来说，并不是所有人，但对许多人而言，在某些时间段不吃东西，其他时间段吃东西的决定，在现实生活中比试图限制食物份量或者决定是否吃饼干要更可行。
Nope, they're they're interfasting window. It's just it simplifies the issue. Yep. And as a consequence, I think it improves behavior overall, although the clinical trials point to some mixed results with that last statement. Again, I don't want the nutrition east does after me. The point is the time blocking and the thick black line didness of the yes, no, the binary yes, no, as eat don't eat or a single commiss.
不，他们处于一种“断食窗口”，这只是让问题简化了。是的，因此我认为这总体上改善了行为，尽管临床试验对此观点的结果有些不一致。我不想让营养学专家来找我麻烦。关键在于时间分块和明确的“是与否”界限，也就是吃或不吃的二元选择。
Email communicate don't communicate in a given time block. I think that's that really is what it's about it honors the the power of those sorts of neural computations. And there's another hidden bonus of time blocking too is visually distinct blocks. So what I do, for example, is I put a double thick line around deep work blocks, focusing on some not just deep work, but deep work on things I really care about.
邮件沟通的时间应该在一个固定时间段内，而不是随时随地。这实际上是尊重我们大脑进行深度计算的能力。如果限定时间块来安排事情，还有一个隐藏的好处，就是让时间块在视觉上更加清晰。例如，我会在专注深度工作的时间段周围画上两条粗线，确保我集中在那些我真正关心的事情上。
Just this gives you a visual record. How much deep work am I doing, right? Like it's this diagnosis. I use a paper-based time block planer. So you flip through those pages and you're just looking for dark blocks, right? So you see, if I see I don't have a lot of dark blocks, I say this is my whole job. Like my whole life, I've been trained in a lab to think really hard about things and write things.
这只是给你一个视觉记录。你做了多少深度工作，对吧？就像是一种诊断。我使用基于纸张的时间块规划器。所以当你翻动那些页面时，你只是在寻找深色的块。如果我看到没有很多深色块，我就会想：这就是我整个工作的本质。我一生都在实验室里接受训练，去认真思考和写作。
Why do I not have very many dark blocks? You get this feedback mechanism. So there's all these bonuses when you start doing this type of planning. Before you tell us about number three, I often fantasized about a web-based program that seems to run countercurrent to much of what you're talking about, but goes back to this the whiteboard MIT observer stuff that you talked about at the beginning, which is often long for, okay, I need to write today, I need to write a book, or I'm going to do some podcast prep.
为什么我没有那么多深色块？这种反馈机制会出现。当你开始进行这种类型的规划时，会有很多额外的好处。在你告诉我们第三点之前，我经常幻想一个基于网络的程序，它似乎与您所讨论的内容背道而驰，但又回到您一开始提到的白板和MIT观察员的内容，这通常是为了实现“好吧，我今天需要写作，我需要写一本书，或者我要做一些播客准备”的目标。
I'm going to pop up a few windows of other people that are also doing deep work, and we're not going to communicate. In fact, if we do, or if music comes through on the microphone or somebody coughs, that's going to be considered a distraction. But does anyone want to join me for some deep work? Yes. Where we don't communicate. And I often thought I would just pay someone to be there. Yeah. To just sit there. But I haven't done that. There are multiple companies that do this. Okay. Yeah. It's interesting. You're online with, or in person, with just other people doing deep work. So a deep work club. The challenge is synchronizing schedules because I might want to do this with somebody on the East Coast, and they might not be doing deep work at the same time, and a recording isn't the same because then they're not really watching. But there's something really to this, right?
我要开几个窗口，显示其他也在进行深度工作的人的画面，我们不会进行交流。实际上，如果我们交流了，或者麦克风中传来了音乐或有人咳嗽，这就会被视为干扰。不过，有人想和我一起做深度工作吗？我们不会交流。我常常想过雇一个人坐在那儿，但我还没这么做。有多家公司提供这样的服务。很有趣，你可以在线上或亲自与其他做深度工作的人同处一室。就像一个深度工作俱乐部。挑战在于同步时间表，因为我可能想和东海岸的人一起进行深度工作，但他们可能在不同的时间做深度工作。录音无法替代，因为那样就不是真正的陪伴。不过，这种方式确实有它的独特之处，对吧？
Yeah. And especially for at-home workers or people like me that work often in isolation. The best student is to do this, right? Distortation boot camps. I don't know if you had this experience. But Georgetown does a lot of colleges do this. Okay. Everyone work on their dissertation. We're all going to get together, and we're going to work on it together. Because they would often have me come speak at these things earlier in my career. It would just be a bunch of grad students. They were just coming to the same space, and they would work for like, okay, 90 minutes, and then they would have like a speaker come in or launch. And so the group cohesion of everyone working deeply at the same time, writers retreats are the same way. We all go to this same house in the middle of nowhere, so that we're all just going to encourage each other right because that's all what everyone's doing here.
好的。尤其是对于那些在家办公或像我这样经常独自工作的人来说，这种方式非常有帮助。最好的学习方法是加入这样的活动，对吗？论文写作训练营。我不知道你是否有过这样的经历，但乔治城大学和很多其他大学都会组织这样的活动。大家一起专注于写论文。以前在事业早期，他们经常邀请我去这些活动上演讲。活动中会有很多研究生聚在一起，在同一个空间内工作，比如工作90分钟，然后会有演讲或午餐时间。这样的活动能让大家在同一时间专注地工作，提升团队凝聚力。作家静修活动也是类似的。在一个偏远的地方，大家住在同一个房子里，互相鼓励，因为这就是大家在这里要做的事情。
Yeah. So social pressure, I'm with you. I was thinking if I ever needed to, you know, put a big extension on my house, that's what I should do. Just like, okay, pay me money. Then I will sit there on Zoom and do deep work with you. This is my secret plan. I pay money to do deep work in parallel with you by with a virtual window there. There's Kalan, his office doing that. I think there's something nice about having some knowledge of who people are. You know, like, hey, logging in today. Yeah. All right. Let's get down to it. Set the timer and go. And then, you know, Asta, I'm out. Well, working at the library, academic libraries. Why did people do that? Right. Yes. Everyone there is working. Right.
好的。关于社会压力，我和你有同感。我在想，如果我需要对房子进行大规模扩建，我该怎么做。就是像这样：好吧，给我钱，然后我就会坐在Zoom上和你一起做深度工作。这是我的秘密计划。我付钱来和你并行做深度工作，通过一个虚拟的窗口看到我们在各自的办公室里工作。我觉得了解一些人是谁，是一件很不错的事情。你知道，就像，嘿，今天登陆了。好吧，我们开始吧。设置计时器，然后开始。然后，就像在图书馆，学术图书馆工作。人们为什么要这样做，对吧？是的，因为那里的每个人都在工作。
Yeah. No, I'm big believer in that. There's really something sticky to that. Okay. Number three. All right. Have a shutdown ritual. Which clearly demarcates the end of work in the start of the night after work. And the shutdown ritual, so it has to, you have to close open loops, right? So you got to make sure this is like a review type period. Let me look back at my inbox and look at my plan. Let me look at my, you know, my time block and my calendar. Really make sure there's nothing urgent that needs to be dealt with that I did it. And there's nothing that's just in my head that I don't want to forget. That's not written down somewhere.
是的。没错，我对此深信不疑，这确实有其吸引力。好吧，第三点，要有一个结束工作的仪式。这明确地划分了工作结束和晚上时间的开始。这个结束工作的仪式需要把未解决的事情处理掉。就像是一个检查的过程。让我回顾一下我的收件箱和计划，查看我的时间安排表和日历，确保没有紧急的事情需要处理，我都已经完成了。确保脑海中没有未记录下来的事情，以免遗忘。
Like, take care of all of that. Right. So you review all these things. You get, what am I going to do tomorrow? You don't have to build your whole plan for tomorrow. You have a sense for it. And then you need some sort of demonstrative thing you do to indicate that you finished the routine. Right. So my, my long time newsletter readers know I used to actually have a phrase. I would say schedule shutdown complete. Like a crazy phrase, right? It's not how normal people talk, right? Now I have a planner that has like a check box that says shutdown complete next to it. The reason why that is a demonstrative anchor is that you use this then for cognitive behavioral therapy because at first people have a hard time shutting down work.
就像是，你要处理好所有的事情，对吧？所以，你要回顾这些事情，想想明天我要做些什么。你不需要为明天制定一个完整的计划，只要有个大致的方向就好。然后，你需要做一些标志性的事情来表示你已经完成了这个例行程序。我长期的通讯订阅者知道，我之前常常用一句话来表示：“日程关闭完成。”这听起来像是很疯狂的短语，对吧？这不是正常人说话的方式。现在我有一个计划表，上面有个选择框，标着“关闭完成”。之所以这是一个标志性的锚点，是因为你可以在认知行为疗法中使用它，因为一开始很多人很难完全放下工作。
I mean, I invented this because I had a very hard time shutting down work on my dissertation. I just, what this proof doesn't work and blah blah. So what you do is when you get a rumination post shutdown. Hey, what about what's going on with our work? We're doing the right thing. Do we forget this or that? Instead of engaging in the rumination. Well, let's like, no, I think we're okay. Let me think about my schedule tomorrow. What's my plan? You instead can just say, I said that crazy phrase, right? Check that box. I wouldn't have said that phrase unless I had gone through everything and made sure that I had a good plan and nothing's been missed.
我发明这个方法是因为我在停下手头的论文工作时遇到了很大的困难。总会想到这个证明不对，等等。于是，当你在停止工作后脑子里冒出“工作怎么样了？我们做的对吗？有没有忘记什么？”这样的想法时，不要陷入这种反复思考中。可以这样告诉自己：“我觉得我们没问题。来看看我明天的计划吧。” 你可以用一个特别的短语告诉自己：“我已经完成了检查。” 这意味着在说这句话之前，你已经确认过所有事情都有条不紊，没有遗漏。
And it was okay to shut down work. Because of that, I'm not going to engage with the rumination. I said the weird thing. Let's get back to what we're doing. This is like cognitive behavioral therapy that after a month or so, you were really able to actually effortlessly disengage from work and do everything, you know, all the other stuff that matters, right? Without having the constant rumination about work, which gives your mind an actual break to, you know, do other things. So, I mean, this is more mental health and productivity. But for me, it was critical. I mean, I can really remember when I came up with this, exactly where I was in my graduate career. And there's just too many ideas and concerns that were just roiling. And once I did this, it took a few weeks. And then I could actually shut down and go on and do other things.
翻译如下：
关闭工作是可以接受的。因此，我不会陷入反复思考。我说了点奇怪的话。让我们回到正事上来。这有点像认知行为疗法，一个月之后，你会发现自己真的能轻松地脱离工作，去做其他重要的事情，而不会总是想着工作。这样，你的大脑才能真正休息，去做些别的事情。所以，我的意思是，这更多是关于心理健康和生产力。但对我来说，这是至关重要的。我还记得我刚开始这样做的时候，当时我正处于研究生生涯的某个阶段。我有太多的想法和担忧在脑海中翻滚。自从这样做之后，过了几个星期，我就真的能关闭工作，去做其他事情了。
Yeah, the paired associative nature of the brain can make it really problematic if you're thinking about work at the dinner table. You start to associate the dinner table with work. I mean, when Matt Walker came here to do this six part series that soon to be released. And we were discussing insomnia. He said, you know, one of the major issues with insomnia is people who have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep will often stay in bed when they can't sleep. And then the bed becomes associated with challenges with sleep. Yeah, that, you know, hence the recommendation that virtually every sleep coach and sleep scientist recommends that people actually, if they can't sleep for 20 minutes or so of effort, then you get up and leave the bed and go someplace else until you feel sleepy enough to go back and try or fall asleep on the couch elsewhere.
是的，大脑的联想能力可能会带来一些问题，比如在餐桌上考虑工作。这样做会让你开始把餐桌和工作联系在一起。我是说，当Matt Walker来这里做一个即将发布的六集系列节目时，我们讨论了失眠问题。他提到，失眠的主要问题之一就是那些难以入睡或保持睡眠状态的人，往往在无法入睡时仍留在床上。这会导致床与入睡困难联系在一起。因此，几乎每位睡眠教练和睡眠科学家都建议，如果努力20分钟左右还无法入睡，就应该起床离开床，去别的地方，感到足够困倦时再回床上尝试入睡，或者在沙发上入睡。
Yeah. I put that in as a note to you. But this seems incredibly important. Also for enrichment of relationships with spouses and children and people in your life, I mean, the problem is the first thing that we ask people when they walk in the door, typically, is how does work today? Yeah, how does work? What do you do today? Tell me about your school day, tell me about your work. Maybe we need to come up with better questions. Yeah, like here's something interesting we could do or here's like something I read about unrelated to work. Yeah, no, I think that I think it makes a huge difference. And again, there's all these meta benefits for these things.
是的，我把这作为一个备注给你。但这看起来非常重要。对于与配偶、子女和生活中的其他人关系的丰富也是如此。问题在于，当人们走进家门时，我们通常第一个问的问题是，今天工作怎么样？今天工作得如何？你今天做了什么？告诉我你在学校或工作中的一天。也许我们需要想出更好的问题。例如，我们可以聊聊我们可以做的有趣事情，或者我刚刚读到的与工作无关的内容。我认为这样做会带来很大的不同。而且，这些事情还有许多间接的好处。
So one of the meta benefits for all of these is also these are all very structured. You'll begin to build a reputation as someone who is very careful about how they manage themselves in their time. Like if you're doing multi-scale planning, certainly if you're doing, you know, pull-based workload management, people are going to start thinking this is someone who thinks a lot about like how they manage their work day and how things happen. This gives you massively way. Right? Yeah, because we think what like our colleagues want from us is accessibility. But really why they want accessibility is because they have no clarity about, you know, are we going to do this thing or are we going to remember to do this thing? Am I going to have to keep bothering you? You know what? If I don't really think you have your act together, I just wish you would just do this right away or respond to me right away because I'm going to have to worry about this until I hear back from you that you did it.
所以，其中一个元好处是，这些全部都非常有条理。这样一来，你会开始建立起一个声誉：被人认为是一个对时间管理非常谨慎的人。例如，如果你在进行多尺度的规划，或者你在进行基于需求的工作管理，其他人会开始认为你是一个非常注重如何安排工作日和事件发生的人。这给你带来了巨大的优势。我们常常以为同事们需要的是我们随时可接触性，但其实他们真正需要的是清晰性。他们希望知道我们是否会做某件事，或者是否会记得去做某件事，是否需要持续提醒我们。如果他们认为你无法很好地处理事务，他们就会希望你能立即完成这些任务或即时回应，因为只有这样他们才能放心，不再为此事操心。
Like accessibility is born from lack of trust or lack of clarity, right? So if you have the reputation of someone who really has to act together, you can for example, lean into a shutdown. I don't do email at all. And people, they don't think that you're being lazy or that you're not keeping up with the work. They're like, no, like Andrew has his act together with this stuff. I trust them. When you show them something like this workload management system, like this is where the queue is, like I can't get to this yet. It's like, okay, that's reasonable. Like you have your act together. So there's this meta benefit of starting to get a little bit more structured about your time and cognitive work is that people will give you more flexibility to work with the better you get at actually working with the resources you have.
就像因为缺乏信任或不够清晰而导致需要更多的可及性，对吧？所以如果你被认为是一个工作很有条理的人，你就可以，比如，完全不处理邮件。人们不会认为你懒惰或跟不上工作进度，而是觉得："不，安德鲁在这方面是很有条理的。我信任他。" 当你向他们展示类似工作量管理系统的东西，比如说队列在哪里，为什么还没处理到，他们会觉得："好吧，这很合理，你确实有条理。" 所以，如果你开始更有结构性地安排自己的时间和脑力工作，会产生一个额外的好处，就是大家会因为你更擅长利用已有资源而给予你更多的灵活性。
As your reputation grows, your autonomy grows. Yeah. And of course, as your reputation grows, more gets thrown at you and it probably takes a bit more discipline to enforce these things. But I always remind myself and other people that the reason people want to access you is because of presumably the consequences of the deep work you did. Yeah. Not. But people love meetings. Gosh, I won't do brainstorm meetings anymore unless it's with my close team. Yeah. It's like you can pitch me a contract and we can reverse engineer the idea. You know, but it just doesn't work to meet with people and kind of brainstorm stuff.
随着你的声誉提升，你的自主权也会提升。当然，随着声誉的提升，你会面临更多的要求，这需要更强的自律来实施这些事情。但我总是提醒自己和他人，人们希望接触你，主要是因为你之前所做的深入工作的结果，而不是因为大家喜欢开会。天哪，我不再参加任何头脑风暴会议，除非是和我亲近的团队一起。这就像，你可以向我介绍合同，我们可以逆向思考这个想法，但和一群人开会集思广益是行不通的。
But I don't know what this is. Like I think maybe people are taking their own lack of structure and projecting it onto other people as a way to fill the time. Yeah. Suda productivity as well. Like this is what I have like visible activity. And so let's quit meetings, let's talk, let's hop on calls. Like that all feels useful when ultimately it's not. Like I'm with you on it. Like remember, the reason why everyone wants to talk to me is because not I'm so great at brainstorming meetings.
但我不知道这是什么。我觉得人们可能是把自己生活中缺乏条理性投射到别人身上，以此来打发时间。是的，还有类似表面上的生产力。我就是这样，比如看到明显的活动，所以我们开会、聊天、通话，这些看起来都很有用，但实际上并不是。就像我同意你的看法，记住，大家想跟我交流的原因并不是因为我在头脑风暴会议上有多出色。
You know, people like this is great. Like Andrew's great at brainstorming meetings. So that's why we want to bother. No, it's because you were really good at the podcast and you were doing like the deep thing. And then that brings in the better you get at what you do best. The more the world conspires to take away your time to actually work on it. Like professors know this well. Like pre 10 year, they most big universities are pretty good at preaching the professors. All that's going to matter is going to be your research. But they throw a ton of other stuff at you.
你知道，这样的人很棒。比如，安德鲁在头脑风暴会议上表现很出色。这就是为什么我们想找他的原因。不，是因为你在播客上做得非常好，你深入研究事物的能力很强。这让你在自己擅长的领域里越来越出色。但奇怪的是，世界好像会不断地让其他事情占用你的时间，让你没法专注于这些重要的工作。教授们对此很有体会。在获得终身职位之前，大多数大型大学都会告诉教授们，最重要的是你的研究。但同时他们也给你安排了很多其他的事情。
It depends on the school. Like I was like Georgetown is very good about this. They're like we don't uh from our perspective, it's a waste of resources to hire you and have you not get tenure. So like we want to try to protect you from they keep service requirements low, for example. And like just focus on you know, just focus on your research because that's what's going to matter. And at least professors know this right? Like there's a clear process like the 10 year process. Most people don't understand tenure. They think it's like getting promoted at a job.
这要看学校的具体情况。比如说，乔治城大学在这方面做得很好。他们认为，如果雇用你却不给你终身教职，对他们来说是资源的浪费。因此，他们会尽量保护你，比如降低服务工作量的要求，让你专注于研究，因为这才是最重要的。至少教授们明白这一点，像终身教职这样的流程是很清楚的。然而，大多数人不了解终身教职制度，他们以为这就像在工作中升职一样简单。
And there's like all these different ways you can sort of impress your boss. It's none of that right? I mean, it's these confidential letters from leading scholars in your field that are doing nothing but brutally assessing your research. How good is Cal? Who are two people who are better than him on the market right now? Who are like two people he's slightly better than would you tenure him at your university? What university could he get tenureed at? I mean, it's all that matters is yeah, research quality.
你可以通过许多不同的方式让老板对你印象深刻，但真正重要的不是这些。真正重要的是你所在领域的顶尖学者写给学校的推荐信，这些信件只会毫不留情地评价你的研究。卡尔的研究有多优秀？ 现在市场上有哪两个人比他更优秀？又有哪两个人稍逊于他？你会给他终身教职吗？他能在哪些大学获得终身教职呢？最重要的就是研究质量。
So you have to somehow rediscover what that is if you're not a professor. Like ultimately like this is the thing I do best for my company. So let me do that, let me do that really well. There's also an aspect by the way of if you do a deep thing really well, that does not attract as much work as if what you do is you're just really good at like responding to people's things and putting out fires. It's like you don't want to get too much trapped in that game unless that's the game you want to play.
如果你不是教授，那么你就需要重新发现你擅长的事情。最终，你要找到自己在公司最擅长的工作，然后把它做好。顺便说一下，如果你专注于把某件事做到极致，那么相较于仅仅擅长回复他人和解决突发问题，这样做反而不会吸引那么多额外的工作。除非这正是你想要的，否则你不应该过多陷入这样被动的局面。
You know, if you get trapped in the game of how I distinguish myself as I reply right away, it doesn't matter when it is, I make your life easier. You're playing the game and making other people's lives easier. And that's what they're going to ask you to do. But if instead you play the game of I'm competent with this like I'll respond to the emails and not be I won't be pathological about it. But the real thing you care about is like this code on producing or these reports on producing are just really second to none.
你知道，如果你陷入这样的游戏：通过立即回复来区分自己——不论何时，这都会让你的生活更轻松。你在参与这个游戏，同时让他人的生活更便捷。这也是他们要求你做的事情。但是，如果你选择另一种游戏方式，比如展示自己在这方面的能力——你会回复邮件，但不会过度沉迷于此。你真正关心的其实是那些你创造出来的无与伦比的代码或报告。
Then you're not going to get a much of the small stuff. They're like, okay, we'll do that then. You know, like that's what we want, that's what we want you to work on. So like what is your equivalent of research is probably a really key question for a lot of people. How do you treat social engagements through work like you know like the company barbecue? I don't know, anyone does company barbecues anymore. But you know like happy hour or I don't know, anyone does that either.
那么你就不会在小事情上花太多心思了。他们会想，好吧，那我们就去做那些事情。你知道，这就是我们想要的，这就是我们希望你工作的方向。所以，对很多人来说，一个关键问题可能是你相当于研究的是什么。你如何看待通过工作进行的社交活动，比如公司烧烤？我不知道现在还有没有公司做这个。不过你知道，像是欢乐时光，或者其他我也不知道现在还有没有的活动。
And social engagements with family like you know because obviously those things are important too. Yeah. Are those on your schedule? Well, you know, I treat work schedule different from non-work schedule. Right. So my work schedule is this time block plan, part of a multi-scale plan really dialed in like when I'm working, I'm working. Right. But then when I'm not working, I'm way more lax.
当然，与家人的社交活动也很重要，对吧。这些活动在你的日程表上吗？嗯，我把工作时间表和非工作时间表看作是不同的。我的工作日程是一个时间区块计划，是一个多层次的计划，当我工作的时候，我就专心于工作。但当我不工作的时候，我就放松许多。
You know, so I don't do time block planning of my weekends or my evenings. The work shutdown being clear gives you more flexibility there. So it's like, okay, what do we want to do? Like let's go like see these people, see these things with the family. I like to be flexible and not overly planned outside of the workday. But then during the workday itself, you know, it's much more machine-like. So you're you're fairly not lax, but you're a bit more relaxed around social engagements and engaging with the kids. But yeah, at work or when you're working at home or in the office, you're a beast. Yeah. I'm like a black box in the work days. Like when I'm working, like I disappear. Nice. Yeah. And then when I'm done, like I'm around. But like my family and friends and they've learned like if you text me during the work day, I'm not part of that game of like, I'll just respond back to it. People know like it may have been four hours since I saw my phone. It's like Lex Friedman.
你知道，我不会在周末或晚上做时间块计划。下班后明确的界限让生活更灵活。所以可以根据需要随意决定，比如去拜访朋友，或者带家人去看一些地方。我喜欢在工作之外保持灵活，不想计划得太死。但是在工作时间，我就像机器一样高效运转。周末或者和孩子们在一起时，我比较放松，但工作时间我就像个工作狂。我在工作日就像一个黑匣子，工作的时候仿佛消失了一样。结束工作后，我才会回到生活中。我的家人和朋友都知道，如果在工作时间给我发短信，我不会立即回复。可能四个小时后我才会看到手机，就像Lex Friedman一样。
Yeah. And people often ask to get in touch with Lex and I've made that connect for a few people. But I always point out, you know, Lex will go long periods of time where we don't connect and then we're close, close friends. We spent a lot of time in person on the phone, text. But I understand that if I text Lex, I might not hear from him for four or five days and it's all good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, that tells me he's good. It's like that scene at the end of Goodwill hunting where he's like, I just want to show up at your house. You're not there. You get there any smiles as friends, Ghani knows he went the direction of his heart. So you're saying if you start to get a lot of like memes texted to you from Lex, that's not going to happen. You're going to be like, what's going on? That's never going to happen. What's the struggle? Let's struggle.
好的。人们经常想要联系Lex，我也为几个人牵线搭桥过。但我总是指出，Lex有时候会很长时间不联系我，然后我们又会变得非常亲密。我们会花很多时间见面、通电话、发短信。但我也知道，如果我给Lex发短信，可能四五天都收不到回复，但这没关系。是啊，是啊，是的。而且这其实告诉我他过得很好。就像《心灵捕手》最后的那个场景，他只想去朋友家而朋友却不在，但这样他反而开心，因为知道朋友选择了自己心中的方向。所以如果Lex开始给你发很多表情包，那可能不会发生。你可能会想：发生了什么？这不太可能。有什么困难吗？一起来面对吧。
Are you happy to your life right now? Yeah. I'm a big believer in the phone. I'm old school. I pick up the phone, make a call. We get on a call sometimes FaceTime. We do text one or two things back to us often really quick. Yeah. Really quick. And I have other friends in the podcast space for which it's the same. It's just, um, phone is a great tool and drop in and then get back to it. Yeah. Not a lot of chitter chatter on. I like that. I always like text is like a great logistical tool. You know, like, wait, what restaurant are you at? Oh, you know, okay, I'll meet you there. Are you free to talk? Like, I love text as a logistical tool. But you're right. As a conversational tool, yes, not from either.
你对现在的生活满意吗？是的。我非常相信电话交流。我比较传统，习惯直接打电话，有时候也会用FaceTime。我们会用短信快速交流一两件事，速度非常快。我在播客圈子里的其他朋友也是这样。电话是个很好的工具，可以迅速联系，然后继续做其他事情。我喜欢这样，不需要太多的闲聊。我一直觉得短信是个很好的工具，比如用来安排事情，“你在哪家餐厅？”“哦，好吧，我去那见你。”“你有空聊聊吗？”我喜欢用短信作为协调沟通的工具，但作为对话工具就不太合适了。
And do you take vacations where you are on pure vacation? So just with family or, or maybe even solo or with your spouse, where it's like no digital, anything, uh, yeah, digital is not a problem for me on vacation. But my wife won't let me not bring something to work on a vacation because because I become a monster. Got it. Your brain needs that. It needs it. Yeah. When we have little kids, I tried this, right? I was like, okay, like, this is it. I'm not going to think about anything like this is, and I would just become like an anxiety case. So what I've learned is bring one thing that's like very deep and non-urgent, like a book concept I'm trying to make work or an academic paper that I was like trying to crack or like something new.
你会去那种纯粹休假的度假旅行吗？就只是和家人、甚至单独或和配偶一起，没有任何电子产品参与。对我来说，度假时数字产品不是问题。但我妻子不允许我在度假时不带一些工作上的东西，因为如果不这样，我会变得极其焦躁。是的，我的大脑需要这些。这是必须的。在我们有小孩时，我曾经尝试过一心享受假期，不去想任何工作上的事情，但我发现自己会非常焦虑。所以我学会了带上一件深奥但不紧急的事情，比如我正在努力完善的书籍概念、正在攻克的学术论文，或者一些全新的东西。
And I need like that 90 minutes a day to like walk on the beach and think, and I have to have a notebook. I have it with me in here. I have to have a notebook with me so that like I can capture notes and get them out of my head on vacation. And that now we have a happy medium. Like I work a little bit every day. No email. I don't get that email, not, no, deep work thinking, uh, I'm much happier. It's like an itch that you have to scratch. Yeah, if I'm not writing or thinking, it's it's I get cognitively antsy. I get anxious, you know, like I'm on I've been now I'm talking to you now, but I've been traveling doing some podcasts and stuff like this.
我每天需要大约90分钟在海滩上散步和思考，并且我一定要带着一个笔记本。我现在就有一本。这是为了让我在度假时把脑子里的想法记下来。现在我找到了一个平衡点，就是每天工作一点点，但不查邮件，也不进行深度思考，这让我的心情好多了。这就像一种抓痒的感觉；如果我不写作或思考，我的大脑就会感到烦躁和焦虑。现在我正在和你聊天，但我之前一直在旅行，录一些播客之类的节目。
And I'm way out of my cognitive comfort zone here because I'm not vlogging. Like early in this trip, I was on a New Yorker and Atlantic deadline, like writing all the time, you know, in California time up at 5 a.m. like, you know, and I'm done with that now and I'm really cognitively antsy. Like I just feel out of sorts right now, you know, like I'm not working. I'm not thinking. Love it. Cal, for me, this has been such an honor. I mean, I should have said this at the beginning of the episode, but I've been such a fan for such a long time. Long before we met or communicated at all, I started reading your books.
我感到有些超出我的认知舒适区，因为现在我没有在录视频。在这趟旅行的早期阶段，我一直忙于撰写《纽约客》和《大西洋月刊》的稿件，不断写作。当时因为加州时间的原因，我每天早上五点就起床工作。现在这些都结束了，我感到有点心神不宁，觉得自己有点不在状态，没有在工作，也没有在思考。但我喜欢这种感觉。Cal，对我来说，这是一次巨大的荣幸。我应该在节目开始时就说这些，但我早已是你的忠实粉丝。在我们见面或交流之前，我就开始阅读你的书。
And I would say you and Tim Ferriss are the people who are really in my academic career had such a profound influence on how I approach work. And it required that I do things kind of against the grain people around me. And very quickly, I saw that I was making progress much faster than I would have otherwise. Yeah. And I never looked as a competitive endeavor with others. But and you just continue to turn out valuable information, actionable tools, you know, book and after book after book. And and obviously they require some structure and some some restriction, but also some moving toward action items.
在我的学术生涯中，你和Tim Ferriss确实对我如何看待工作的方式产生了深刻的影响。我发现，我需要在一定程度上与周围的人采取不同的方式。很快我就看到这样让我比原本预计的进步快得多。我从来没有把这看作是与他人的竞争，而是一直在不断提供有价值的信息和可操作的工具，一本又一本书。当然，这需要一定的结构和约束，同时也需要朝着行动目标前进。
And I love these these top three that you provided us on the pull forward, the multi-scale planning and the shutdown ritual and all all the others on the you put forth. And I guess that the major takeaway for me today is that yes, you've developed all these tools, but you also use them and it's not lost on me that you also have a flourishing career as a computer scientist. So you're not just somebody who talks about and here I'm not dissing anyone else in the in the information sphere, like just talks about habits or just talks about protocols.
我很喜欢你们提供的这三个重点：提前行动、多尺度规划和关闭仪式，还有你们提出的其他内容。我今天的主要收获是，你们不仅开发了这些工具，而且真正使用了它们。而且，我也注意到，你在计算机科学领域的职业生涯很成功。所以，你不仅仅是一个只谈论习惯或协议的人（这并不是在贬低其他信息领域的人）。
You do these things and you implement them in the context of your work life, your creative life, your family life, in your relationship to self and you exercise. And and I think that that all combines to be an amazing example of what's possible if we introduce a bit of understanding about how we function as a as a being. And that we implement some of these tools in in the user manual that you've come up with.
你在工作生活、创意生活、家庭生活、自我关系中落实这些事情，并进行锻炼。我认为，这一切结合在一起，展示了如果我们稍微了解一下作为一个生命体的运作方式，并在你制定的使用手册中运用一些工具，能够实现的奇迹。
And so I just want to say on behalf of myself and everyone who's listening and watching, you know, thank you so much. This is incredibly valuable information, regardless of what one is doing in life. And I'm certainly going to implement this three step system and I do have the book. I always like to read books after guests are on. I'm going to read the book. And I'm going to do some posts about what I experience as a consequence. So thank you so much.
我想代表我自己以及所有正在听和看的观众说声感谢。这些信息非常有价值，无论大家生活中正在做什么。我肯定会实施这个三步系统，而且我已经有书了。我总是喜欢在嘉宾分享后阅读他们的书。我会读这本书，之后会分享一些我在此过程中获得的体验。所以，非常感谢。
I would pay a substantial amount of money to do deep work sessions with you in the on the screen there, but I won't put that on you. I'm just going to I'm going to just bite down and and do this stuff. So thank you so much for being a pioneer in this space and for such a clear communicator. We all owe you a debt of gratitude. Oh, thanks Andrew. Well, and for the rest of us professors who are also podcasting, we owe you a debt of gratitude because you're showing us what's actually possible.
我愿意支付一大笔钱来和你一起进行深入的工作交流，但我不想给你增加负担。我会自己下定决心，把这些事情做好。非常感谢你在这个领域的开创性工作，以及你如此清晰的沟通能力。我们都非常感激你。哦，谢谢你，Andrew。而且，对于我们其他也在做播客的教授来说，我们也非常感谢你，因为你展示了这些事情实际上是可以实现的。
So this has been great meeting you as well as fantastic. All right. Well, thank you. We won't we won't see each other on social media, but we'll we'll share a meal at some point before long. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Cal Newport to find links to Cal's website, books, and to his excellent podcast, please see the links in the show note caption.
很高兴见到你，这次会面真是太棒了。好的，非常感谢。我们可能不会在社交媒体上见面，但不久的将来一定会一起共享一顿美餐。感谢你参加我与Cal Newport博士的讨论，想要找到Cal的网站、书籍以及他出色的播客的链接，请查看节目备注中的链接。
If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.
如果你正在学习并享受这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是支持我们的一个非常好的免费方式。此外，请在Spotify和Apple上订阅我们的播客。在Spotify和Apple上，你都可以给我们打最高五颗星的评价。请查看今天节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商。这是支持本播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Hubertman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. Not during today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Hubertman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements. While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, improving focus, and for hormone support.
如果您对我或者关于播客、嘉宾或您希望在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的话题有任何问题或想法，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有评论。虽然不是在今天这一集，但在Huberman Lab播客的很多往期节目中，我们探讨了补充剂。虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要，但对于改善睡眠、提高专注力以及支持激素健康等，许多人从中获得了巨大益处。
To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Hubertman Lab podcast, go to live momentus spelled o us dot com slash Hubertman. That's live momentus dot com slash Hubertman. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram X linked in Facebook and threads. And at all of those places, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Hubertman Lab podcast, but much of which is often distinct from the content on the Hubertman Lab podcast.
要了解更多在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的补充剂信息，请访问网站：livemomentous.com/hubertman。请注意，是“momentous”以“-o-u-s”结尾。如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上的账号都是Huberman Lab，包括Instagram、X、LinkedIn、Facebook和 Threads。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和科学相关的工具，其中一些内容与Huberman Lab播客的内容有重叠，但很多内容是Huberman Lab播客中没有提到的。
So again, it's Hubertman Lab on all social media channels. If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, our neural network newsletter is a monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page PDFs where we spell out specific items for say neuroplasticity and learning or deliberate cold exposure or fitness or managing and optimizing dopamine, all of which are available completely zero cost.
所以再次提醒大家，我们在所有社交媒体渠道上的名字都是Hubertman Lab。如果你还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，现在可以订阅哦。这是一份月刊，内容包括播客摘要，还有像“神经可塑性与学习”、“刻意冷暴露”、“健身”或者“管理和优化多巴胺”这样的专题协议，这些内容都会以简短的1到3页PDF形式呈现，解释具体的项目。而且所有这些内容都完全免费提供。
You simply go to Hubertman Lab.com, go to the menu tab, scroll down a newsletter and supply your email. I should point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
你只需访问Hubertman Lab.com，进入菜单选项，向下滚动找到时事通讯，然后填写你的电子邮件。我需要指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享你的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Cal Newport. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interesting science.
感谢你再次加入我与卡尔·纽波特博士的讨论。最后但同样重要的是，感谢你带来的有趣科学。