You're listening to TIP. Yeah, I mean, first just to touch on this notion that you mentioned of the time billionaire, the basic idea there is if you're under 40 or frankly, even if you're over 40 these days, you've got roughly a billion seconds or more to live in your life. And that's actually the most valuable currency. And the ultimate question is, how are you going to spend that time? And I argue that ultimate success is control over how you spend your time. And of course, a lot of things you want to do with your time do take money, but it's often not as much as you think. And that leads me to kind of this exercise that you mentioned of, you know, what I call defining your ideal end state.
Hey, everybody, in this week's episode of Millennial Investing, I got to sit down with Kevin Dallstrom to chat about how to create your ideal life. We did a deep dive in Kevin's 17 point Twitter thread that went viral on how to lead a life that you dream of. You also learn about the importance of minimalism and keeping a low burn rate to give yourself optionality in life, how much money you'll need to fund your lifestyle, what smart money moves the wealthy make three behaviors that will put you ahead of 99% of all people plus a whole lot more. Kevin is well known on Twitter for good reason and cranks out content that will improve your life. He's the founder of several startups. He was a chief marketing officer of two public companies, and he's invested in over 70 private equity and real estate deals. Kevin is married with two children and lives in Boulder, Colorado, and in his free time, he's an avid rock climber. This interview was a real treat for me. I hope you guys get a lot out of it, but more importantly, I hope you implement some of the ideas that Kevin discusses.
And so without further delay, let's get into this week's episode with Kevin Dallstrom.
所以,不再拖延,让我们进入本周与凯文·达尔斯特罗姆的节目。
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Millennial Investing podcast. I'm your host today, Patrick Donnelly, and joining me today is Kevin Dallstrom. Kevin, welcome to the show.
Hey, Patrick. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat.
嘿,Patrick。感谢邀请我来参加节目。我很兴奋能够与你聊天。
I'm excited too. I've been looking forward to this one. I wanted to talk a little bit. You've been the founder of at least four companies, at least. I think probably more than that, you've had a recent venture swell, which we may get into. You've also been the chief marketing officer of two public companies, and I think you've been involved in over maybe 70 private equity and real estate deals. But we're not going to talk very much about any of that. What I really want to focus on is one of my favorite threads that you've done on Twitter, which was how to lead a great life. You've done a ton of threads, but this is one I really want to focus on. There were 17 points. I think you wrote it maybe when you were 50. Can you talk a little bit about that, just the inspiration for it, just the process of writing it before we get into the 17 points?
Yeah, you bet. First of all, thank you for not focusing on the career stuff. I've done that before, and I'm very proud of my career. But at this point in my life, I'm much more interested in helping people understand how to build a great life, not just a great career, but a great life. And I often joke that I learned everything the hard way so that you don't have to. I'm 52 years old now, and I've been running really hard for a long time. I plan to continue running hard, but it's important to make sure you're running in the right direction. Throughout my career, I learned a lot of hard lessons on that. I did a pretty major reboot of my life in my mid 40s. And that's really the inspiration for most of my content that I write on Twitter is just the lessons I've learned about how to build a great life. Because my observation is there is a huge number of people, especially men who find success in their career, but ultimately end up miserable, or not as happy as they'd like to be, because they've kind of become one dimensional, focusing mostly on the career. And they kind of ignored the other stuff for too long, and it can become a trap.
So let's go into that first point. Talk about a little bit more about the common mistakes that you see people putting money and career before experiences and relationships. Can you go into that a little bit further?
Absolutely. Yeah. And the first thing I'd say is it's not an either or, you know, anything of value, whether it's a career, great relationships, mastering a craft, it takes time and compounding. So the time to start is now and you should do all these things in parallel. But a lot of the basis for that particular point in that thread was this the notion that if you talk to a lot of elderly people and you ask them to talk about the things that they treasure most in life, what are they going to talk about? They're probably not going to talk about the sizes or bank account or the deals that they closed or whatever. They typically will talk about the experiences they had and the loved ones that they shared those experiences with. And so it seemed to me that that's what we should optimize life for.
And the reality is, you know, we kind of go through life with this notion that, well, first, I need to make a lot of money. And then I can start building a great life. I call that someday thinking. The problem is that what happens is someday never comes. And you end up, you know, in your 40s, you were way down the road. Maybe you've had some success in your career, but you've got broken relationships. You don't have much outside of work or what I call one dimensional. And that's a trap that a lot of people and again, especially tends to happen to men who are often the breadwinner in the family. It happens to them and it's a big problem in society.
Yeah, see, you talk about like for people that are under 40, that there are time billionaires and that like a Warren Buffett would do anything to trade places with a younger person. I think there's a societal script really that we focus on money, we focus on career and we do put off living the life that we want to lead. You had a really good thread too on coming up with your ideal life and really getting clear on that. Can you talk a little bit about that and the process for you for creating the ideal life that you're leading now?
Yeah, I mean, first just to touch on this notion that you mentioned of the time billionaire, the basic idea there is if you're under 40 or frankly, even if you're over 40 these days, you've got roughly a billion seconds or more to live in your life. And that's actually the most valuable currency. And the ultimate question is, how are you going to spend that time? And I argue that ultimate success is control over you, how you spend your time. And of course, a lot of things you want to do with your time do take money, but it's often not as much as you think. And that leads me to kind of this exercise that you mentioned of what I call defining your ideal end state. I think it's just kind of interesting how so many of us go through life with only kind of a vague idea of what we're really building toward. And I'm not just talking about it in the career again, I'm talking about what is your ideal life or your best life look like.
And so there's an exercise that I recommend to people. And it's super simple, but it's very powerful, which is literally, you know, get out of piece of paper or pull up in a, you know, a note on your iPad and bullet point out what your ideal life looks like. Like, who are you around? What are you doing with your time? What does your health look like? What does your financial situation look like? And, you know, on and on in mind, which I published a few days ago, you know, it's got like 30 bullet points on it doesn't take a ton of time. But it's a very eye opening thing to do because you'll often surprise yourself. And in my case, like a lot of the things that are on my bullet list don't take a lot of money. They, you know, I don't have like, for example, things that aren't on my list or things like run a big company or fly a private jet or drive fancy cars. Yet those are the things that many people are chasing. And I think it's a really powerful exercise.
You know, because of my Twitter following, I get a lot of young guys in particular who are in their 20s or 30s or even 40s reaching out to me asking me for advice. And the situations are all different. But my advice is almost always the same, which is start by defining that ideal in state life that you want. And then that tends to shed light on the path right in front of you. It shows you what you need to be doing today. But equally importantly, what you need to stop doing to get to that ideal in state life.
Can you go into some of the bullet points on your list that you came up with?
你能解释一下你列出的一些要点吗?
Sure. As a matter of fact, I will pull it up here so I can just read some of them verbatim. I published this list just a couple days ago on Twitter. My handle is at camp four. So let me pull up here and read just a few. Here we go.
So I'll just blast through a few of them. So, you know, the title of the bullet list is called Kevin's best life challenging intellectually stimulating work done on my terms. Morning's free to read, write and think at least one active, creative, personal project control 90% of my schedule, lots of sunshine and time outside ability to live and work anywhere, a small, beautifully designed home with a view always available for family.
And that's about the first third of it. But you get the notion of like the level of detail that I go into. It's it's like, what does that in state life really feel like? What are you doing? How are you living? And it's like, as I said, it's such a powerful exercise. And I recommend doing it if you're married, doing it with your spouse or your partner. And again, it just really having that clearly defined North Star really does provide a lot of clarity about the things you need to be doing today. It's a great exercise.
I actually pulled up the thread or the tweet last night and talked it over with my wife and we kind of went over a little bit of our ideal state. But it's a really great exercise to do. Is it something that you do on a like a yearly basis, like a yearly review to just kind of monitor how you're doing? Or is it just something that you've kind of set in place and you're working towards it, you know, pretty much all the time?
I get asked that a lot. And you know, is it a moving target, basically? And the answer is, yes, it's a moving target. I think it moves a lot more when you're younger than when you're older. So, you know, when I was in my twenties, I actually didn't do this exercise. I wish I would have. That's why I preach about it so much. But I suspect that my ideal in state would have looked a little differently than it does today. But I'd say now, you know, over the past few years, it really doesn't change. I think I'm pretty locked in on what matters to me.
And you know, the good news is, I mean, I'm 52 years old. So you would hope I'm well on my way to living that life. And in fact, I would say that I'm 98% of the way there on my particular list. I've got an incredible life. And that's why I'm so motivated to share what I've like, it almost feels like I know a secret. And I want to share it with as many people as possible.
Was there a mentor or a book or something that inspired you to do this? See, that's the thing is I talk about how I learned everything the hard way. So hopefully you don't have to. You know, I had a pretty rough upbringing. There wasn't a lot of positive figures or anyone worth emulating in my life. And unfortunately, I had to learn everything on my own. And you know, yeah, I mean, there was books and things I read along the way. But you know, Twitter and a lot of the podcasts and all this stuff wasn't around when I was in my twenties. And so I really did learn a lot of things through trial and error. And again, you know, that's why I like to share this information. Because I think I could have gotten to my ideal in state 10 years or maybe even more earlier in life, because I spent a big chunk of my twenties and thirties pursuing a misguided notion of what winning was, you know, I sort of just accepted society's definition of winning, which meant having a successful career, you know, checking all the boxes that society says success means. And so I rocketed to the top of the corporate ladder, you know, was making tons of money, lived in a mansion in the suburbs of Dallas, had, you know, beautiful wife and two kids and like, all the check, check, check, check, check. But inside, I felt like an imposter. Like I was leading the life of some other guy who wasn't me because I wasn't winning in the way that that I defined it wasn't winning on my terms.
You talked about wearing masks and how in the business world, we often have to just wear masks in many cases, but you end up getting confused and you lose touch, I guess, with your true nature, who you know, who you really are. Talk about that transition from like being living in the mansion, having the, you know, seven figure salary. Talk about the psychological challenges of making that transition to redefining success, which is actually really hard to do, I think, because we are programmed from a pretty young age. It's very hard to do very few people actually, a lot of people recognize that they have been chasing a misguided definition of success. Very, very few people actually make the hard changes required to change directions.
You mentioned the idea of the masks and just to kind of explain that a bit for your listeners. Carl Jung, the philosopher, had this idea of masks. He said, look, we all wear masks just to function successfully in society. Masks aren't a bad thing. I mean, you need them to be able to interact with others. What can happen though, if you're not careful, is that you should accumulate these masks and you lose sight of the person behind the mask. And that often results in what we commonly call a midlife crisis.
And Jung said that a midlife crisis is actually the opposite of what we think it is. You know, everybody thinks of a midlife crisis. Those like, Oh, wow, Patrick turned 45 and he became a different person. It's actually the exact opposite of that. What's happening is the masks are coming off and your true nature is being revealed. You're becoming who you really are. To others, it seems like you're changing. But to yourself on the inside, you're becoming your true self. And that was absolutely true with me. And in fact, it happened to me in my, you know, kind of classically in my mid 40s.
And in my case, I realized like, I don't know if I can go on one more day living this life because it's just not what I want. And so we did a major reboot of our life. I quit. I walked away from many millions of dollars with nothing planned in terms of what's next. We moved from Dallas to Boulder, Colorado to be in a better environment, put the kids in new schools. My wife had to reboot her life. It was a major change. It was very, very hard. But I knew it was necessary. And you know, now fast forward five or seven years. And it's the best thing I ever did.
So you know, making big changes scary. It's hard. It's always easier to do nothing. But you know, I've met many people who have taken those bold steps to reboot their life have yet to meet someone who regrets it. In fact, in almost every case, they'll say, wow, it actually worked out even better than I had hoped.
Talk about the epiphany you had. I think you were sitting at a corporate boardroom meeting surrounded by a ton of really wealthy guys, you know, at the pinnacle of their career. But, you know, fat at a shape unhappy. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I don't think it happens this way for everybody. But I, in my case, there was a moment in time epiphany. I was sitting in a boardroom. I was a top executive with a multi-billion dollar company, you know, making tons of money. And I was sitting around this table with about 10 other guys who were all way more successful than me in terms of money. But they were all miserable. They looked miserable. Many of them had told me, you know, in confidence that they were unhappy. And that was kind of my epiphany is that this is not the path for me. This is a path to misery and destruction. And I value other than value being healthy, a value being outside. I value my passion for rock climbing and the community that comes along with that. And so I reoriented my life, you know, to kind of tie back to where we started this discussion, Patrick, you know, it's all about experiences and relationships. So I rebooted my life to really optimize for those things.
So part of that reboot was getting into minimalism, which is your next point. So we live, obviously, in this consumer society, we're constantly pushed to think that buying the bigger house or the bigger car or whatever that's being advertised is going to make us happier. Talk to us about how you found minimalism and maybe just how it's benefited your life. We'll go into it. I've got more questions after you go into it a little bit more.
Yeah. So first of all, when people hear the word minimalism, I think they often misunderstand what it really means. A lot of people think minimalism is like, you know, giving up all your possessions, denying yourself of joy and living a monk-like existence. And it's actually the exact opposite of that.
Minimalism is all about less is more. So stripping away things that don't bring you joy to make room for gorging yourself on things that bring you joy. It's actually minimalism is somewhat hedonistic in the sense that it's all about sort of saying, I'm just creating lots of room for the things that I really enjoy. And I think everybody eventually comes around to believing in this notion that less is more. It's just that some people do it much later in life and miss the opportunity to really get the joy that comes from practicing minimalism.
So I'm a big believer in it. And I've got a story that I wrote about on Twitter that kind of went viral where I talked about, I'll tell the short version, but as a teenager, my dream was to own a Porsche 911 turbo convertible. I had posters of that car on my wall growing up. It's just a beautiful car represented the ultimate in success to me.
When I turned when I was in my early 40s, I got a big bonus one year at work. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to go buy that Porsche. And so I went and, you know, had the luxury of being able to write pay cash for a $230,000 Porsche 911 turbo convertible, just a gorgeous car. I posted a picture of it on Twitter. And I got home that night, I was laying in bed, and that car was stressing me out. It wasn't bringing me joy. It was actually stressing me out.
What I realized was I wasn't that 13 year old boy anymore who dreamed about having a Porsche. My dream had changed. And I just hadn't taken the time to clearly define it. And so the ending to the story is I took the Porsche back to the dealership. And to the dealership, this credit, the manager shook my hand and said, congratulations, you're the first person who's ever done that.
And so that was a great lesson learned for me is, you know, again, back to this idea of really take the time to search your soul and define what success really means to you. What that ideal in state looks like to you. If you look at my list, nowhere on the list anymore is a Porsche.
Yeah. And now you drive away like a 13 year old 15 year old pickup truck or something like that. I do and I love it. My truck has 170,000 miles on it. It breaks down all the time, unfortunately, but I love the car because it's kitted out with all of my climbing gear. So I can, I can walk out of my door right now, get in my car and go climbing because all my gear is in there and organized, it's ready to go.
So let's dive a little further into minimalism. How were you getting into minimalism as you had this epiphany? Or did that take place afterwards? And as you were cleaning up your lifestyle, you naturally found minimalism. I know you did an interview. We talked about it before the episode started recording about with Mr. Money Mustache, who was a huge influence on my own life, but talk a little bit about how you found Mr. Money Mustache at what stage of the game did minimalism enter into your life?
Yeah, I think, you know, before that big epiphany, it was more accurate to say I was pursuing maximalism. You know, I was just listening to what society said and like, you know, hey, if you're winning, you have a huge house. If you're winning, you have a boat. And I did all those things. And I realized that it wasn't fulfilling. And I did like you, I discovered Mr. Money Mustache or Pete, who is now a good friend of mine.
He lives here in Colorado as well. And I learned about the fire movement, which, you know, Mr. Money Mustache is sort of, I guess, the most prominent proponent of fire, at least on social media. And his writings really influenced me. This was right around the time I was starting to have this awakening around what I really wanted in life.
And I realized that, yeah, what's crazy, Patrick, is I was already a wealthy person financially. You know, so when I had this epiphany, the good news is by having my head down focused on just one dimensional success, I made a bunch of money. But I still didn't feel freedom is crazy. Like to be worth millions of dollars and still not feel free. And what Pete's writings, Mr. Money Mustache's writings really taught me is, Oh, I actually am already, I already have financial independence.
I just need to restructure my life a little bit to take advantage of it. And so the fire movement is really the core of it is really that it's much easier to gain independence by controlling your burn rate, by controlling your spend than it is to just, you know, follow the traditional retirement model of like save up $10 million and then retire at 65 and do nothing.
That's absurd. That's so outdated. The idea is like create a lifestyle that allows you to gain to inch your way toward financial freedom much, much sooner. Understanding that most people are going to continue to do some form of work, even after they quote unquote retire. So, you know, my life's a good example where he knows the number one bullet point on that, that in state list that I mentioned was challenging intellectually stimulating work. I've found that I've tried retiring a couple of times. I found that I'm not happy if I don't have a little skin in the game and if I'm not doing challenging work. So yeah, I'll continue to make some money, but you know, that doesn't necessarily mean I have to have a full time job because I do have financial independence. And so I think it's really a matter. What the epiphany for me and all of that was just redefining, or I guess rejecting the old tired factory work retirement model.
Can you go into some of the calculations that Mr. Money Mustache uses on how to calculate your number? Yeah. So the whole fire movement is based on what's called the 4% rule. I like to say it's the 25 to 1 rule. So the idea being that there's been studies that have been done over the long course of history that show you can safely withdraw 4% of your assets every year and your assets will never get smaller. They'll only continue to grow through good economies, bad economies, recessions, whatever. This is a long term play. What that means, because at 4%, it means that whatever your annual spending is, you need to have 25 times that in assets, right, to be able to withdraw 4%. And so, you know, if you can live on $50,000 a year, you need to have $625,000 in assets. And it's pretty simple math. But the power in that equation is it allows you to look at both the income and the expense side of the equation. And what you realize very quickly is I can get to financial independence much faster if I am able to create a lifestyle that doesn't rely on consumption, that doesn't rely on me spending a lot of money on things that I don't actually really care that much about. And so that's the very, very short version. I wrote a thread on the fire or the 4% rule. There's lots of content out there on Mr. Money Mustaches blog.
And otherwise, I highly encourage people, strongly encourage people to go read up on the fire movement, in particular, some of Mr. Money Mustaches writings. Because even if you don't fully adopt it, I think it'll change the way you think about personal finance.
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So for our listeners that aren't familiar with the fire acronym, it's financial independence retire early. There's another book that I loved called Your Money or Your Life, which was kind of a precursor actually to Mr. Money mustache, which goes into the same kind of concepts of what he's espousing. But it's great stuff. Definitely. I totally agree with you that it's something people need to check out. You interviewed him. Did you have any kind of interesting takeaways from the interview? Any interesting kind of little tidbits that you learned from him?
Well, the one thing I'd say about Pete is he's a true believer. I mean, he definitely practices what he preaches. And I would say even on the extreme. And so because Pete is on the extreme, I think those are the best people to learn from because most of us like Pete famously for many years now has published his annual spending. And even with a wife and a kid, his annual spending was something like $27,000, which most of us, you know, probably would struggle to live on $27,000 a year. But the principal applies at any level, even if you live on $100,000, $200,000 a year, the principal still applies. And so I think that's like one thing I took away from my interview with Pete is he practices what he preaches. And you know, among there's a lot of bad financial advice out there. In fact, it kind of drives me nuts that I see a lot of personal finance influencers on Twitter, on YouTube and elsewhere, just giving really, really bad advice, bad financial advice. And so I like to find people who really practice what they preach.
Well, let's get into that. You did a post called it was about five smart money moves that wealthy people make that the average middle class American doesn't. Can we get into that a little bit and touch on some of those smart money moves?
Sure. I'm going to pull it up real quick here on Twitter so I can actually reference it.
好的,我马上在Twitter上找出它,这样我可以实际参考。
Yeah. So the thread was called top five money moves of the rich. And you know, this is basically things that anybody can do to start building wealth is what the smartest, wealthiest people do.
And so for example, you know, a lot of it's like simple things, but practiced and compounded over time. So you know, the rich accumulate assets is one. So you know, you want to spend your money on things that grow in value, like real estate, for example, or stocks and not spend a lot of money on things that depreciate in value, like cars being the prime example, cars are the number one offender buying a new car, especially if you're not financially independent already is a disastrous financial move. It just is it's the number one destroyer of wealth. It's why I mean, I could drive anything I want at this stage, but I still don't just because on principle, I'm just not going to invest my money in things that that lose value.
So people, you know, smart wealthy people accumulate assets, real estate, you know, one thing I learned fairly late in life is real estate in particular is a system that really is stacked in our favor, whether that means just owning your own home as a starting point or buying other, you know, properties, eventually participating, you know, in real estate private equity funds, like I do educate yourself on on real estate and start investing there.
And then compounding, you know, I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about compounding in the next few minutes, but you know, compounding is really the key to anything. It's small actions done consistently over time add up exponentially. And so practicing all these behaviors, keeping, you know, putting money into assets that increase in value over 20 years builds extraordinary wealth.
And then, you know, another one is avoiding debt. So, you know, debt is a huge destroyer of wealth. You should only use debt to buy assets that are going to grow in value like a like a home. So mortgage would be considered a smart use of debt, but you know, buying a car or buying clothes or whatever on with debt is a bad idea.
And then the last thing I mentioned in that thread was make everything a money move. So it becomes really a kind of a fun almost like a game to live your life in a way and have a mindset such that everything you do is done with a mind toward inching toward financial success or financial independence. And again, I'll go back to the fire movement, you know, people should educate themselves on fire because that's kind of a core principle. It becomes it's almost like a lifestyle more than it is just a financial strategy.
然后,在那个帖子中,我提到的最后一件事是将一切都转化为金钱的举动。这样,你的生活就变得像是一场有趣的游戏,你以一种思维方式来过日子,每做一件事都是为了朝着财务成功或财务独立迈进一步。我再次回到 FIRE 运动,你知道,人们应该对 FIRE 运动进行自我教育,因为那是一种核心原则。它几乎成为了一种生活方式,而不仅仅是一种财务策略。
Yeah, it's completely a lifestyle. I wanted to get into you've been in FinTech for most of your career. You started swell, which we actually I kind of want to get into swell because it's a mission, I think of yours to help the average person acquire wealth.
You know, the top 1% or top 5% have all kinds of services and products available to them that helps build wealth with swell. Can you go into a little bit about what you've done with the company and just the mission that you've got with the company of swell?
Yeah, so there's no question that the our financial system is in general is rigged heavily in favor of the wealthy. You know, the poor people not only have access to less opportunities in a financial system, they pay more for everything. And so I think we've reached a time where we desperately need to democratize our financial system.
The challenge is, you know, consumer finance, banking, these are super regulated industries. Essentially, the big banks or our banks in general have an oligopoly on the market. They have this thing called a bank charter that allows them to have superpowers to do things that other companies can't. And you know, there's been a lot of investment over the past five or 10 years in FinTech, financial technology, a lot of startups trying things. The reality is it's proven to be banking has proven to be an extremely difficult industry to disrupt.
And you know, I founded a company a few years ago called swell that had the mission of disrupting. We were particularly focused on the credit card industry credit card debt in the US just topped a trillion dollars for the first time in history. The average APR people are paying on that debt is over 20%. It's a huge, huge problem that doesn't get talked about enough. And you know, we've set out to disrupt it. And the current news is I sold my company swell back in May. So I'm no longer the CEO and founder of swell, but the mission continues.
But it's something I am really personally passionate about, which is not only just basically helping people get ahead, because banks have proven that their motive is anything but to help you get ahead, it's to help themselves get ahead. And there's a huge need for new companies, new financial services, new products that help people get ahead, whether it's in managing their debt, their investments and so on. Because financial literacy is very, very low in the US. It's a dismal it's one of our core tenants too, is just, you know, providing great financial education.
Congratulations, by the way, on selling swell. That's awesome. So one of your first points was having creative work. Now that you're not doing swell or you sold out, what's your next project that you're into? Oh man, I have far more projects than time. That's a challenge of mine. In fact, I just came back from two weeks up in the mountains near Telluride, Colorado. And I came back very convicted that I need to really prune my life a little bit. I'm really over committed, because there's so many things I'm excited about. But that being said, I do think it's absolutely critical to have projects you're passionate about multiple projects going on at any given time, whether it's work related or purely personal.
One project that I'm deep in the middle of right now, and I can't talk a lot about the details, but I'm hosting an event here in Boulder in early September for 18 friends, most of whom came from Twitter. And it's a bit of a pilot test for an idea that I have, a big idea that I have. And so coordinating an event and curating it to my level of excellence has been a huge undertaking, much bigger than I expected. But it's been also a great creative outlet for me. And so I'm a huge believer in like, you need to express your creativity. And that can, that can look lots of different ways. I mean, it can look like doing a home renovation project and using your hands and actually building stuff yourself. It could be a writing project. It could be exploring a new business opportunity like I'm doing. I think that's really, really important to be fulfilled. You talk about that. That's one of the other points of great life is being multi dimensional, not just being focused like a Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, like focusing all their energy, you know, they built great things, but at the expense of being multi dimensional. So yeah, I think minimalism fits into that you've got time to pursue those passion projects. So all good stuff.
I want to switch into talking about the next point, which is fitness and nutrition. So one of your points, I think, was you want to be in the top point 0.1% of guys, you're a is it guys your age or just in general? Yeah, whichever. Yeah. So let's get into that. When did you get into fitness and nutrition talk about some of the things that you're practicing to really build a great life in that domain?
Yeah, I've written a lot about this, but you know, I've always been into sports and athletics my whole life, but in college, I had a huge health challenge. I didn't know it at the time didn't realize until years later, but I had a severe bout of Epstein bar virus and you know, Epstein bar is the virus behind what we call mono.
And for most people, you get it and then your immune system suppresses it and you move on with life. It's kind of always there, but your immune system keeps it under control. For some people, and this and I was one of them, it runs unchecked and it can create huge health problems. It causes your hormones to go out of balance. It causes psychological problems, your deeply fatigued muscle weakness, like a whole host of problems. And that happened to me in college.
And it was a huge wake up call because I had always been thought of myself as like exceptionally healthy and fit. And now all of a sudden, I could barely drag myself out of bed. And so that really began a journey where I went deep into understanding, you know, kind of how to rebuild, because the mainstream medicine has had back then and still has today, very few answers for any chronic condition.
In fact, I dodged a number of bullets along the way, things that doctors wanted to do that just didn't feel right to me. And so what I learned over time is, you know, there's there's no shortcuts. It's, you know, a lot of it boils down to just diet, nutrition, and, you know, an exercise.
And so that's become a huge part of my life. And also at a more fundamental level, you know, you only get one life to live on this planet. Why wouldn't you want it like your body is your vessel for experiencing life? Why wouldn't you want your vessel to be in tip top shape? You know, why wouldn't you want to drive a Ferrari and not a Hugo? And so it just, like, it's just a logical thing to me.
I think it's really sad when someone lets themselves get, you know, obese or way out of shape, because you literally can't experience life to its fullest if your body is not healthy. I mean, a great example, like, you can't have great sex if you're not healthy. And so I guess you can choose to opt out of that or miss out on it. But you know, I want to experience life, everything that life has to offer. And so I made, you know, make I've always made health and fitness a top priority for me.
In fact, it really should be the top priority, because you know, it really is true that, you know, the old saying that a healthy man has 100 problems, a sick man only has one, it really is true is that, you know, if you don't have your health, you have nothing. I had a little bout with diverticulitis a while ago, and it put me, I mean, it just put me down.
And yeah, you're right, when you when you've got a health crisis like you had in college, you actually had to drop out of school when that happened, right? Oh, yeah, it was severe. In fact, I dropped out for a semester. But even when I came back a semester later, I was still very, very ill. And I kind of limped, limped my way through college and then slowly began to rebuild. So it was, you know, it was devastating.
To your point, when you have a health crisis like that, you realize how important your health is, and it's not to be taken for granted. And like you said, you need to focus time and energy on it, like as one of the top priorities. And the older you get, the more time and energy you need to put into it. So I was, I call it tightening the screws. Like, you know, when you're in your 20s, you can kind of get away with, you know, you want to stay fit, but it doesn't take a whole lot. Your body's working in your favor.
As you get in your 30s, 40s, 50s, you have to be able to devote more and more time to your health. That's why, by the way, all these things are connected. That's why it's important to control your time. Because if you're, if you're still working 60 hours a week in an office, it's going to be very hard to devote another 20 or 30 hours to your health and fitness. And so you've got to gain control of your time as you progress.
Have you come across the, it's Dr. Peter Atia, the book longevity. Have you read that at all? Of course. Yeah. I mean, Atia is a rock star. I've been in that movement way before it was cool. It's really fashionable now. But you know, I was doing what they now call biohacking, you know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago. So I'm familiar with Atia and all those guys. And yeah, I think it's, it's great that it's becoming a huge focus now.
Diet wise, what are some things you do? Do you have any kind of special diet that you implement? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the keys in diet is not to be overly dogmatic, because if you are, it will never stick. So if you look at my ideal in-state list, one of the bullet points on there says eat an 80% clean diet. I found that for me, you know, I avoid things that I know I don't do well on. For me, for example, ever since my illness in college, I'm super sensitive to alcohol, like way more than most people. And so I use, I still drink, but I do it very, very sparingly. But generally, just eating really clean food most of the time, everything in moderation, including moderation. So I definitely have binge days and I like my ice cream and desserts. But if you can kind of stick to an 80% clean diet, plus the exercise, you're going to do great.
Let's move on to the next thing that we have in common, which is writing. You spend, I think, a lot of time doing the Twitter threads. I think a lot of your mornings are spent doing writing. In a lot of ways, it's a superpower if you can, if you can write well, especially with Twitter, for example, there's a lot of people on there, including yourself because of their skill in writing have really been able to grow their followers, provide great content. Talk to me a little bit about writing for you, how you got into it, your practice, any kind of tips and tricks that you have for being a better writer. Yeah. And I would actually say Patrick that writing is a superpower, even if you're not good at it, because the real benefit of writing goes to the writer, not to the reader. Like the fact that if you can, like, for example, if you write on Twitter and you can amass a following, whatever, tens of thousands of followers, that's like the icing on top. It's great. It's a very flattering. But the real value of writing is in the writing itself, not in the publishing and having other people read it. And so I believe that it sounds like you do, that developing a practice of writing is critical because there is nothing on earth that sharpens thinking like writing. And again, you don't have to be a good writer, but I think just getting into that practice, and I'm big on routine. So, you know, a big part of the biggest part of my morning routine is sitting down and writing with a cup of coffee. And the amazing thing about Twitter in particular is there's like this, you know, writing often requires inspiration. And when I wake up in the morning and I go through my Twitter feed, you know, in 10 minutes, I'll usually see something that inspires a thought. And so at any given time, I'm in the midst of writing, you know, 10 or 12 or 20 different little little pieces or threads or tweets. And the vast majority of them never see the light of day. I know I published maybe one in 10 or one in 20 things I write. But those, you know, the other 95% that doesn't get published is still immensely valuable to me because again, it really nothing sharpens thinking. So my advice to anybody is just to start like start with five minutes a day. You know, it can be crappy writing. You don't have to publish anything. If you think you've written something that's great, publish it on Twitter, and you're going to be shouting into the void and you may shout into the void for months and months and months. But that's fine.
So, I could go on and on about the value of writing. And in fact, you know, again, just like fitness, as you progress in life, I think you want to be able to devote more of your time to activities like writing. You know, I probably spend, I don't know, at least five to 10 hours a week writing, depending on what's happening that week.
Was that your experience when you first got on Twitter that you were writing into the void? Wasn't a lot of feedback?
当你第一次使用Twitter时,你是否有过这样的经历,感觉自己在写给虚空?没有很多反馈吗?
Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's how it all starts. And you know, I think my accounts a little bit different than a lot of my peers on Twitter and that from day one, I said, I'm going to write for an audience of one, which is me. And if I'm pleased with it, that's my only bar. And I've stuck to that, you know, now three years later, I've stuck to it and it's worked pretty well. But I do, I'll be if I'm being honest, like, I do see some of my friends who've like really learned to write content for engagement, like, they write content specifically to drive views or comments or followers or whatever. And they've got way more followers than I have. But I just can't make myself do that. Like, I just have no interest in writing garbage or engagement bait. And that's maybe to my detriment.
But what I will say is, the nice thing about, you know, sticking to your guns is the followers that, you know, the 50,000 or whatever followers that I do have, they follow me because they truly enjoy my content. They don't follow me because I posted a clever piece of clickbait. And so that's something I'm proud of. But yes, I mean, I started off with zero followers. This is really during the beginning of the pandemic. And, you know, you're shouting into the void, you're commenting on other people's posts. And it's like, it's one of those like slowly then all at once. It's kind of a snowball effect. I would say like anything in life, consistency is key.
I agree. I think people lose a little authenticity when they do the clickbait tweets. And Kevin Kelly had a great article on 1000 True Fans. I don't know if you've come across that before, but it's great, great article just about being authentic and crafting stuff that your fans are going to love. I think that's what you've done. What I find really valuable and helpful is just like, you know, you've got a great message that you're consistent with and it's just great content. So you've got true fans.
Yeah, for your listeners, I highly recommend reading that essay. Just Google 1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly. And he wrote that article, by the way, in 2008. And the basic idea behind that article was, Hey, these days with the internet, if you can amass 1000 fans who are like really true fans of yours, you can make a living. And the article was actually a little bit ahead of its time because that wasn't really true at the time he wrote it. But I actually believe now in 2023, if you have 1000 True Fans, you actually can find ways to monetize and make a living off of that. And so it's an amazing world we live in now.
是的,对于你的听众,我强烈推荐阅读那篇文章。只需要在谷歌上搜索“1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly”就能找到。顺便说一下,这篇文章是在2008年写的。文章背后的基本理念是,嘿,如今有了互联网,如果你能积累起1000个真正狂热的粉丝,你就可以谋生了。事实上,当他写这篇文章时,这并不完全正确,但我实际上相信到了2023年,如果你拥有1000个真正的粉丝,你实际上可以找到方法来实现盈利并谋生。所以我们现在所生活的世界是多么神奇啊。
But I absolutely agree with you that, you know, I'd rather have one true fan than 100 sort of casual followers or people who are following me for the wrong reason. Do you have any other writing resources that have been helpful for you on crafting a practice? Something that comes to mind real quick for me is the morning pages. I don't know if you've ever done those.
I'll be honest, I'm a little bit of an outlier in this, in that I'm not a big like book learner. So everything I do, I tend to learn by doing. And I definitely draw inspiration from other writers that I admire. And a lot of them are on Twitter. But I haven't really done any structure. I haven't really used any structure approach to improving my writing or learning. So yeah, I really couldn't point out any resources.
Yeah, that's one I would mention Julia Cameron, I think is the author's name. And it's just a daily practice of writing three pages, just kind of stream of consciousness, almost just journaling just whatever is on your head, you know, getting it down on the on the page and creative stuff starts to come out.
One thing I'd say though, and I'm going to be a little bit of a contrarian here is three pages is a big ask. Like, I think that's a non starter for most people. Like most people simply aren't going to do this. Great to say, but start with like one sentence, literally, like write a sentence down. And that you think is kind of interesting or clever. And then build from there.
And the other thing I'd say is one of my pet peeves, and it happens a lot in today's world of like, there's unlimited podcasts you can listen to, there's tons of business books. And I think often people try to substitute doing with learning. And you know, they listen to all the podcasts, they read all the books, but they never actually do anything. And it becomes a former procrastination. So in anything that you do, my advice is have a massive bias toward action. Like, literally before you think like, how can I educate myself? Just go do it. And then you'll understand exactly what you need to be educated on.
Let's get into the next thing that you focus on that you wrote about in the tweet, which was the importance of not doing dumb things. This kind of reminds me of a Charlie Munger thing about like, he just doesn't want to make stupid decisions, basically. Talk about some of the dumb decisions that you see younger people make that you just kind of want to shake them things that maybe you did in your own life.
Yeah, you know, there's a lot of talk about the things you should do, like the strategies for success. But there's not much talk about the things you should not do, like the things you should avoid. And in my opinion, those are equally important. And I see young people making mistakes like that all the time. We actually talked about some of them when we were talking about the fire movement and personal finance. Like a lot of them have to do with just making dumb financial moves. Like, you know, I'm going to say something probably a little bit provocative and controversial, but you know, student loans are a great example, is that, you know, if you're going to take out student loans, you better make sure that you're doing it for a career that will allow you to pay those back pretty darn quickly. And a lot of people do or running up credit card debt for buying things that aren't assets, you know, and things like that that can actually what ends up happening, particularly when it comes to finance, is they keep you from freedom, they trap you into now having to do things that you probably don't want to do for a lot longer than you otherwise would. And so yeah, I'm a huge advocate of don't do things that make your life miserable.
And you know, you could talk about devices, addictions, whatever, you keep those things in check. And that's, you know, for some people, I would argue that's the more important side of the equation is to stop doing unproductive, unhealthy, toxic things.
Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
让我们稍作休息,并听一听今天的赞助商所说的话。
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All right, back to the show, which takes me to your next point, which is the and kind of ties into minimalism, but the importance of keeping a low burn rate, not getting yourself into financial troubles that you've got to lead a life that you don't really love and don't want to be leading, which often happens. Yeah, it's a consumption trap, right? And you know, this is hard wired in me because I grew up in an environment in a childhood where the future was always so uncertain. And so I have a bit of a depression to air of mindset and that even though I'm a wealthy person, I still keep our burn rate quite low with the option to reduce it even lower if I needed to, which is a little bit, I guess, doesn't even make sense necessarily at this point in my life, because I don't have to, but it makes me sleep well at night.
And so, and again, as you mentioned, it ties into this idea of minimalism where what you realize is actually the, you know, less is more like you're actually not, you're not more miserable when you do less and spend less, you're more happy.
Yeah, and it just keeping that low burn rate just gives you optionality in life, like it just gives you tremendous more choices than you would otherwise.
是的,保持低燃费只是给你在生活中更多的选择权,它为你提供了比其他情况下更多的选择。
Absolutely. Mark Cuban actually preaches about that. He's like, if you're trapped financially, then you're going to miss out on all the opportunities that come your way because you're just not in a position to pursue them.
Let's move on to your next point, which was the importance of finding your happy place and tribe in your own case. You were living, I think in like suburbs of Dallas, moved to Boulder, you found your people with climbing, talk about the importance of doing that for people and the challenges of it.
Yeah, I'm glad you talked about the place and the tribe together because they are, they really are very intertwined. And I have a somewhat contrarian or I guess maybe unpopular point of view on this, which is I actually believe the place where you live is as important, maybe even more important than your choice of life partner. And the reason for that is your life partner, let's say your wife or my wife, they can only influence your happiness so much. In fact, if you're relying on your partner to be happy, that's probably recipe for disaster anyway. But the place you live, I refer to it as your aquarium, you're literally immersed in it 24 seven, it influences everything that you do.
And one of the things that it influences is the community. So for a grammar grade example, where I discovered rock climbing, you know, 25 years ago, for many years, I lived in Dallas and made it work, even though Dallas is a terrible place for a rock climber to live. It was very difficult for me to build a community of other climbers. And then finally, I moved to Boulder. And it was like a huge tailwind behind me all of a sudden, like, I'm literally staring out my window right now at rock. There's a huge community of rock climbers here. They're motivated, they're easy to meet. And so everything, it's like the rising tide that floats all boats, everything just gets better when you live in your happy place. Yet, so many people simply live where they live, because that's where they live. And they have a vague notion that they'd like to be somewhere else, but they'll never take action on it. And so it's a huge thing for me is like, if you don't love where you live, then I have the courage to move. And there's lots of reasons not to move, lots of excuses, family work, whatever. I have found that where there's a will, there's a way. And if you really want to do it, you can find a way to make it work.
Can you talk about how you went about it or how you'd recommend somebody that's living in some place? Maybe they grew up in, they haven't left their hometown, they don't like it. How do they go about finding a good place, maybe taking little experiments to figure out where they want to be?
Yeah, no, I think it's worth like you should definitely visit some places and find your happy place. And there's a lot of factors to consider it sort of individualized. I think before we started recording, I'd mentioned that, you know, we did a trial run of a month in Boulder before we moved here.
And in our case, it was a no-brainer, because if you're a rock climber or you're into the outdoors and you're still doing business stuff, Boulder really is like, it's not even close. Boulder's at the top of the list because you've got a major university here, you've got a business community, you've got a major airport, 30 minutes away, world-class climbing, running, trail running, everything, right at your doorstep, great weather throughout the year. So those are all the factors we weighed. And it was a no-brainer for us.
But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what I would say to people is start taking baby steps, you know, go explore a place, see what it feels like to live there, start doing the research, start getting your finances in order so that you can do it.
In my case, I waited way too long and basically just ripped the bandaid off. Like just said, look, we're moving. And to be honest, like my family wasn't even completely aligned on this, but it was something that I needed, you know, I was in my 40s at the time. And it's something I needed. And, you know, sometimes you have to make hard decisions on behalf of your family that may not be popular. You fast forward five years now. And my family loves living here. You know, it's like, of course, this is better than living in the suburbs of Dallas.
Changes hard though, you know, I'm sure you've got two girls. They probably had, you know, their friends in Dallas, all of that. Like, that initial step is you're going to get some pushback, I think, and that's to be expected in most people's cases. Changes hard, but people need to remember that all the good stuff goes to those who are willing to be brave and make bold moves, right? All the spoils go to the bold.
Let's go to your next point here that you say is important for living a great life. And that's helping others, having an abundance mentality. That's one thing I've loved about being on Twitter, real estate Twitter, or small business Twitter, whatever it is. People really have this abundance mentality of sharing their playbook, answering DMs. Talk a little bit about in your own life, how service helping others kind of looks for you.
Yeah, the secret is that helping others is actually kind of a selfish endeavor. Because the thing that most people don't realize is when you help somebody else, you are the biggest beneficiary, both directly just in terms of the way it makes you feel and the fulfillment you feel from that. But even if you play the long game, the good things you do always come back to benefit you. And you can call it karma, you can call it whatever you want. But I've seen it happen over and over as you're putting positive energy out there, you're helping others, everybody wins. And so that's on my ideal in-state life list that is explicitly listed as something that I want to make a priority.
And to be honest, that is what Twitter has largely become for me. So I still have a policy today that I still hold to, even though it's a lot of work, which is I respond to all DMs. And I end up spending hours every week doing that. So it is a burden. But I view it as an honor and a responsibility that I have. If I'm going to put this content out there, I need to be able to help people understand and implement it in their own lives. And so that's become an incredible conduit for me. And honestly, again, back to this idea of it being sort of a selfish endeavor, the feedback I get, I just got a message from a guy the other day, he said, Hey, just checking back in at five months later, you gave me this advice. Here's the changes I made. And it's worked out better than I expected. I get chills right now just talking about that. That's what it's all about for me. Super satisfying. It feels great. So I just really commend guys like you. There's other song Twitter that do the same, but it does take a ton of time to answer DMs. And you know, it's very generous. So thank you for doing that. You answered mine. So I appreciate it.
Well, again, like, it makes me a little uncomfortable when people say that, even though it is flattering, because to be honest, like a lot of it is just selfishly motivated. It's like, it just feels so good to do that that I want more and more and more. Makes sense.
The next list or the next item on the list was to avoid toxicity, avoid the haters, get toxic people out of your life, whether it's social media or in real life. Can you go into that a little bit about how you've gone about doing that, maybe how you handle negativity and haters online?
Yeah, so I'm going to expand it beyond online to just life in general, because this is a lesson I wish I had taken to heart many years earlier, is I think we have a tendency to cling to relationships or even or maybe just let them linger with people who are taking energy from us. And I've really become convicted that in any relationship, there has to be at least an equal energy exchange. Like, you have to be able to get back as much energy as you give. And it's always, you know, of course, in different ways. And it's not always balanced in the short run, but over the long run, there has to be an exchange and it's setting boundaries if that's not the case.
So, you know, again, having grown up amongst a lot of toxic relationships, it's been life changing for me personally to set boundaries and hold to them and really think about, you know, who's in your inner circle and to curate that very, very carefully. You want people who can basically who are positive and will help you grow as a person. And so, you know, no bad vibes are allowed in my my inner certain doesn't mean you don't have problems and you don't, you know, tackle them and help each other out. But again, in general, the relationships have to be a positive energy exchange.
Yeah, it's the cliche about being and it's true, but it is a cliche about being the average of the five people that you're around the most. So it's important to curate that very carefully. So true. Yeah, it really is true.
So next point on here was the ability to say no, and this is a little bit kind of tight into that, just the ability to set boundaries. Talk about how you've gone about that. I'm sure you get a lot of requests on your time, your energy, your money. How do you think about saying no to things?
Yeah, I think I think there's a seasons of life aspect to this. So I wrote something about this a while back where when you're younger, you need to be saying yes to most things, like within reason, because you need to kind of put yourself out there, explore opportunities. But when you get older, let's say in your 40s, 50s and beyond, you're going to find yourself needing to say no more than yes. And what it's really about is just living your priorities. If you say that something is a priority, you can't do everything. So if you say that something is a priority, by definition, that means you have to say yes to things that align to that priority and say no to things that don't. And so that's again, one of the huge benefits of defining that ideal in state life, it makes it really easy to know what to say yes and what to say no to. And once you have real clarity on that, you're going to get really good at saying no to things.
I want to get into your podcast. It's called compounding. And that's one of the other items on your list on how to live a great life. Talk about how, why you named it compounding. It's a great podcast. I'll put links in the show notes to some of the episodes that I've listened to that I thought were really great. But go into that a little bit about compounding and the importance of it.
Yeah. So my podcast is called compounding. The reason it's called compounding is I just kind of think that's the key to everything in life. You know, small consistent effort over time becomes exponential, whether you're talking about money or fitness or relationships, whatever you're talking about.
The idea behind my podcast was to talk to exceptional people who have built great lives. Now, not just had success in whatever career field they've chosen, but have built great lives. My podcast is quite different from most in the sense that number one, I do all of them face to face. I just think there's a dynamic that happens when you're face to face that doesn't happen through Zoom. But as a result of that, I do very few podcasts. Like in the two years, compounding has been around. I only have seven episodes. So I've really had to focus on quality over quantity. I'm really proud of each and every episode. And that really is the basis is like talking to people and learning from people who have been there and done it so that we can apply those lessons in our lives and start compounding the same way.
There are great books kind of to that speak to this. Atomic habits comes to mind about just 1% improvements, incremental improvements, and how over time the exponential growth of whatever habit you choose, whether it's money or fitness or whatever, you know, it's pretty incredible the growth after a longer period of time. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm 52 years old and I will say my life is a testament to stacking 1% gains. And if there's anything that sets me apart from my peers, it's that I never stop. Like I kept doing things consistently in a sustainable way. And what happens is over time, that doesn't just put you 10% ahead of people. That puts you 10x ahead. And you know, I'm not bragging, but I'm saying when you look at various aspects of my life, I feel like, you know, a lot of the people who were my peers 10 years ago are no longer my peers simply because of compounding.
Maybe it's you. I can't remember who, but somebody said that the flex as you get older is being in really great shape rather than having a whatever, great title or salary or something like that.
Yeah, no, I said the tweet was, you know, under 40, money is a flex over 40 fitness is a flex. Because if you're once you're over 40, lots of people have money like in big titles and whatever, but not many people have money and are really fit or really good at some other craft.
So that brings me to the next point about three behaviors that you wrote about that would elevate anybody above 95% of all people. Can you go into what those three things were?
Yeah, and this was really just a funny way of highlighting the fact that the bar is so low out there, folks. Like, if you want to get ahead in life, I'd said you just need to do three things. And this is very sincere.
So number one is show up on time every time. So just being reliable and consistent and showing up on time, that already probably puts you in the top 20%.
首先,准时出现每一次都很重要。所以只要可靠、始终如一、准时出现,这样你很有可能就位居前20%之列。
Keep your promises, right? So if you say you're going to do something, do it. Now you're in the top 10% probably, or if not 5%.
And then show enthusiasm for whatever you do. And those three things, I believe actually, if you do those three things consistently, you're in the top 1% of human beings. And it seems so simple, yet it's so rare for people to do those things.
I had a friend of my dad, he took his son to the DMV when he turned 16. And he was like, son, look around here. This is your competition. This is who you have to be. And like you said, it's a fairly low bar if you do those three things. Well, honestly, even among successful, quote unquote, successful people, I'm astonished at how few people can actually just manage their time and show up.
It's not that hard, like just to show up on time for things. Or if you say you're going to do something, just do it. And you know, we're all busy. We all have that excuse that's convenient. But you either commit to keeping your promises or you don't. So yeah, I mean, it's almost impossible to not have success if you do those three things.
Good points. I want to get into this next one, which is the importance of seeking truth or the importance of exploring religion. This was a topic that you went into with one of your guests pretty deeply that I loved. So can you talk a little bit about that exploring religion, exploring and the search for truth and how that's shown up in your life?
Yeah, I mean, I like to think of myself as first and foremost, a truth seeker. I'm a Christian. So from religious standpoint, that is what I practice. But even from a broader standpoint, I think that like you have to have a real lack of imagination to not believe there's a lot more to this universe than we understand, right? I mean, you know, we learn more and more every day with the James Webb Space Telescope or whatever, like just how many billions, if not trillions of galaxies there are out there in all likelihood, there are many, many billions, tens of billions of Earth-like planets. There's probably life out like, what's the meaning of all this? Like, where did it all come from?
And I think like, at some point in life, you really got to start thinking about these bigger issues and make some decisions for yourself. And so, you know, I'm not one to push religion on anything. Anybody, in fact, I never talk about it on my Twitter account. But all I encourage people to do is like, find your own truth.
Like, you know, start asking those questions, start educating yourself because, you know, there's so much out there that is a mystery and that can't be explained by, you know, by humans or by science. And it's just absolutely fascinating to learn about whether it's outer space or religions, the different world religions and philosophies, like all of it is super interesting and beneficial to anybody to learn more about and study. I think so. Like, I think it's way more interesting.
So I'll use this as an opportunity to talk about something because it ties into this idea of being multi-dimensional. So I've gone on a few, like I would call high-end guys retreats, where like a bunch of successful business guys go away for the weekend. We go to Santa Barbara or we go to Mexico or whatever, you know, your listeners can probably guess at some of the types of groups I'm talking about.
And the problem I have with those is they're insanely boring to me because a lot of these guys just want to sit around and talk about business 12 hours a day. And God bless them. Like, I'm sure that's going to help them be successful in that endeavor. But when I'm hanging out with people, I want to talk about a lot more, like, I love business, but I lose interest in that after a few hours and I want to move on to other subjects. I like to talk about these bigger topics.
And it's something that just doesn't happen much anymore. So that's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine is like, look, if you owe it to yourself, to at least like, ultimately, a lot of the things we do in the day-to-day world, especially in the business world, they add up to nothing at the end of the day. Like on your deathbed, all that stuff adds up to nothing.
What adds up to something back to our original point was experiences, relationships, and some of the big ideas and thoughts you've had over your life.
归根结底,形成我们最初观点的是我们在生命中的经历、人际关系以及一些重要的想法和思考。
Next one that I know obviously is super important to you being a rock climber is the importance of getting outside, being in nature, getting in touch with whatever our caveman tendencies are, you know, rootedness to the earth.
Yeah, I mean, for all of humanity's history, we evolved to live in harmony with nature and with the sun. And what's crazy is like, modern man has existed for roughly 300,000 years. Only in the past 50 years have we really retreated indoors and live under artificial lights, never come into contact with nature. It's kind of insane if you think about it, to think that that won't end really poorly. And we're seeing the results of that in our health, right? All these chronic conditions.
So I'm a huge believer in, you know, the answers are found outside. And so, you know, get outside, get sun exposure regularly. And that's a huge component of not just health, but of just living a happy life.
I've got three kids that are often glued to screens, glued to video games. And it's like a huge challenge to get them outside. I saw a study done that kids that spent something like over two hours a day on video games are very likely to end up fat, lonely, depressed. You know, I shared with them this. I'm like, you know, you guys need to get outside, go on a bike ride, go swimming, do something. And what I say to that is duh. Like, how is that not obvious to people?
The last item here is you wrote about the grass being greener. And there's a quote I love called comparison is a thief of joy. So talk about that final point about the grass often being greener on the other side. How do you avoid comparisons?
Yeah, it's hard. I mean, especially in the age of social media, there's levels to the game. And no matter what game you're playing, there's always someone who's a level above you that you can compare yourself to and you feel like you've never really been successful. So I think that's part of it is like realizing, you know, finding satisfaction by embracing what you have.
And that's something I struggle with particularly because I'm a high achiever. I'm a I'd like to chase shiny new objects. I like to get better to improve to have more all those things. But you really have to keep that in check. And when it really gets dangerous is when you get into this grass is greener type mentality.
And I'm, you know, I'll use it for as a simple example, marriage, right? And so when you've been with anybody for 10, 20, 30 years, it's really easy to have those thoughts about how much greener the grass is on the other side, but you have to check yourself and then remind yourself of all the good in your life that you're not embracing. And then all the bad that will come if you know, you go chasing green grass all the time that's a that path only leads to misery.
And I'm used marriage as an example, but it really applies in any area of life.
我以婚姻作为例子,但实际上它适用于生活的任何领域。
So one of the things I mantra that I kind of remind myself of regularly is happiness is a choice. It really is like every day you wake up, you're going to view the glasses half full or half empty. And it becomes self fulfilling. And so if you should always wake up, choose to believe the glasses have full and then little subtle behaviors and attitudes will make that come to fruition.
I think you wrote like it's an asymmetric upside, right? By choosing to be optimistic and positive. There's no downside to choosing to be happy, but there's huge upside. And the converse is also true. Like, you know, choosing to be miserable. There's no there's no upside whatsoever. You don't nobody wins from that. But you sure do lose a lot.
Kevin, this has been awesome. I really have enjoyed going through this thread. I encourage our listeners to check it out on Twitter for anybody that wants to get in touch with you or learn more about you. Talk to us about a few ways they can do that.
There's only one way. I mean, Twitter is kind of my hub for communication. So find me on Twitter at camp four. That C A M P the number four that Twitter handle comes from camp four is the name of the climbers campground at Yosemite National Park. It was kind of the crucible of American rock climbing. And so many, many years ago, like 20 2007 when I signed out for Twitter, I got that camp for handle.
Anything else you want to add before we close out anything that we didn't touch on that you maybe wanted to talk about?
在我们结束之前,你还有什么其他想补充的吗?是否有任何我们没有涉及到但你可能想谈论的内容?
No, Patrick, this has been a great discussion. So I invite people to follow me on Twitter and reach out through DMS if you have any questions or want to make a comment.
Awesome. Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.
太棒了。凯文,非常感谢你今天抽出时间来。真的非常感激。
Okay. Thanks, Patrick.
好的,谢谢,Patrick。
Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon.
好了,伙计们,今天的节目就到这里。希望大家喜欢这个节目,并且我会很快再见到大家。
Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin and every Saturday we study billionaires and the financial markets.
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