149. Is It Harder to Make Friends as an Adult? (Replay)
发布时间 2023-11-26 05:05:00 来源
Hi NSQ listeners, producer Rebecca here. We're off this week celebrating Thanksgiving, so we're coming to you with two conversations from the NSQ Archive that speak to a couple of the major themes of the holiday season, friendship and food. The first half of the show is a replay of the very first episode that Mike and Angela ever recorded together, and the second half is a conversation between Angela and chef and author Gabriel Hamilton. We hope you enjoy listening to these old favorites, and we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.
大家好，我是NSQ的制作人Rebecca。这一周我们正在庆祝感恩节，因此我们为大家带来了两个与假日季节的主题密切相关的NSQ存档中的对话，分别是关于友谊和美食。节目的前半部分是Mike和Angela首次一起录制的回放，后半部分是Angela与厨师兼作家Gabriel Hamilton的交谈。希望大家喜欢聆听这些经典回放，我们下周会带来一期全新的节目。
No! Really? Men wanna have friends? I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Mike Marn, and you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today on the show, how do you make friends as an adult? People are kind of like, I'm good. I don't want anybody else.
不！真的吗？男人也想要朋友吗？我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。我是迈克·马恩，你正在收听《不要愚蠢问题》节目。今天我们谈论的是，作为成年人如何交朋友？有些人可能会说，我很好，我不想要其他人。
Mike Marn, I am honest girl from zero to ten. I wanna say eleven in excitement to talk to you today about something that we both care about, and that is friendship. That is something we care about and something that we have. Exactly.
迈克·马恩，我是一个从零到十诚实的女孩。今天我非常兴奋能和你谈论一件我们都关心的事情，那就是友谊。友谊是我们所关心的，也是我们所拥有的。确切地说就是这样。
So, many who's one of our listeners writes to us with the following question. I would like to know if it becomes difficult to make close friends, not acquaintances, as you grow older, especially in your forties and beyond. And by the way, Mike, this idea of making close friends, even in mid adulthood, it kind of is us. I agree. I mean, look, I feel very lucky to count you as among my dearest friends. I also think that it's an interesting question, and I think you and I probably approach it a little differently. You've told me that I think I'm your most recent good friend. Is that fair? Yes, that is accurate, and I haven't made another really good friend since then. So, you're still the reigning champion in the Olympics of Antela's recent good friends. Yeah, and let it be known that's the only place I've ever been a reigning Olympic champion. So, I'm gonna take it for what it's worth.
所以，我们的许多听众之一给我们写信，问了以下的问题。我想知道随着年龄的增长，特别是在四十岁及以上，是否变得难以结交到亲密的朋友，而不仅仅是熟人。顺便说一下，迈克，即使是在中年时期也建立亲密的友谊，这种想法对我们来说有些重要。我同意。我的意思是，我觉得能把你算作我最亲密的朋友之一，我觉得很幸运。我也认为这是一个有趣的问题，而且我认为你和我可能会有不同的处理方式。你曾告诉我，你认为我是你最近交到的好朋友，对吗？是的，这是准确的，从那以后我没有交到过另一个很好的朋友。所以，在安泰拉最近的好朋友奥林匹克比赛中，你仍然是冠军。是的，让大家知道，那是我唯一成为奥林匹克冠军的地方。所以，我会珍惜这份友谊。
Mike, I know we made friends in like what the last ten years, but I can't give you the exact date. What I recall is that I was coming out to Utah where the headquarters of Qualtrics is, and I think there was an annual meeting, and we had these conversations. All I can say is that like, and then suddenly we were good friends. Can you remind me of what actually happened? What I think is amazing now that I've known you for almost a decade, you give a lot of speeches and you show up at a lot of different events. And so, the fact that you came and spoke at ours and somehow we ended up very close friends, to me, is pretty amazing at this point. All I remember is you were looking for Ryan Smith's place on your advice.
迈克，我知道我们大约在过去的十年里结识了朋友，但我无法给出确切的日期。我记得当时我去了犹他州，那里是Qualtrics的总部，可能是有个年度会议，我们之间曾有过对话。我只能说，突然间我们成了好朋友。你能提醒我事情的真实经过吗？现在想想，我认识你已经快十年了，你演讲很多，参加各种不同的活动。所以，你竟然来参加我们的活动，并且我们成了很亲近的朋友，对我来说真是太不可思议了。我只记得你当时在你的建议下寻找Ryan Smith的住所。
Advisory board. Oh, that is so true. I was being strategic and shrewd. I was like, if I go and give this talk for this Qualtrics Summit, then maybe the founder and CEO. I think that was his title at the time, right? Now he's chair, but that he'll be so charmed that he'll agree to be on the advisory board of my nonprofit character lab. I think that's ringing a bell. Which he was and he did. I know, right? Look at that. I want to say a decade ago, but it's probably not even that. Yeah, it's crazy. That was almost 10 years ago. And look at where we've come since. I think a lot of things led to the friendship. One was that you were coming to speak to. Obviously, you wanted Ryan on your advisory board, three character lab and Qualtrics work together. And then as fate would have it, you and I both got to know Stephen Dubner individually. And then the three of us started going around the country doing free economics live shows for a few years. And so I think all of those things led together. But then for some reason, amidst all your busy schedule, we had a weekly one on one. And you scheduled it for 7.27 AM at my time. Because you said people were more likely to show up at an odd time than if it were just 7.30 AM. Okay, Mike, I need to tell you, I have like zero recollection of anything that you just said, what? I scheduled 7.27 AM. Well, it was 9.27 your time as you were finishing Pilates. Oh, you would call me on your way home Pilates and we would talk once a week, but at 7.27 AM. And you were very insistent. You must have just read some research that we needed to do it at a random time. I must have read the research that said that we need to do it regularly, right? I do believe in that, by the way. If you're going to try to do anything, doing it with a routine, like making it more habitual. So I probably was drawing on that research. I can't exactly remember why the three minutes before the half hour. Did we really do that for years? We literally talked on the phone every week for like years and you don't remember any of it. So it's like, well, it's disturbing.
咨询委员会。哦，说的太对了。我当时很有策略和精明。我想，如果我去参加这个Qualtrics峰会并发表演讲，或许创始人兼首席执行官（现在是主席）会被我的魅力所折服，同意加入我非盈利组织Character Lab的咨询委员会。我想我还有点印象。他加入了，事实证明是这样的。我知道，对吧？看看这个。虽然可能还不到十年前，但已经过去太久了。是的，太疯狂了。那几乎是10年前了。也看看我们走过了多远。我觉得很多事情导致了我们的友谊。一个原因是你要来演讲。显然，你想要Ryan加入你的咨询委员会，而Character Lab和Qualtrics又会合作。然后，命运就这样安排了，你和我都个别地认识了Stephen Dubner。然后我们三个开始在全国各地做几年的免费经济学现场表演。所以我觉得所有这些事情都汇聚到了一起。但是为什么在你忙碌的时间中，在所有安排中，我们却有每周一次的一对一约会呢？而且你把时间定在了早上7点27分。你说这样比7点30分更容易约到人。好吧，Mike，我得告诉你，我对你刚说的一切完全没有印象。我定了早上7点27分吗？好吧，这在你那里是早上9点27分，你刚做完普拉提运动。哦，你在回家的路上给我打电话，我们会每周通话一次，但是是在早上7点27分。你非常坚持。你可能刚读了一些研究，说我们需要在一个随机的时间进行通话。我可能读到了一项说定期进行通话的研究。顺便说一下，我真的相信这一点。如果你要做任何事情，最好是定个规律，像是让它变成一种习惯。所以我可能参考了那项研究。我不太记得为什么要在半小时之前的三分钟。我们真的这样做了好多年吗？我们真的每周通话，就像好几年，而你对这一切一点印象都没有，这真让人困扰。
Angela, my name is Mike Mon. I know you. God, yeah, nice to meet you. Jesus. I'm going to come up to you at a cafe sometime and you'll be very nice to see you. Who are you? Well, have a great first conversation. But let me go back to Minnie's question for a second. Do you agree that it's harder to make close friends into your 40s? I don't know that I agree. I talked to a bunch of people. And I think that if you learn how to do it, it's not as hard as it may seem, though a lot of people clearly do have an issue doing it. And so I think maybe what we can talk about is some of the ways to make it easier.
安吉拉，我的名字是迈克·蒙。我认识你。天哪，太高兴见到你了。耶稣啊。我会在咖啡馆找你，很高兴能见到你。你是谁？好的，祝你们有个愉快的第一次交谈。不过，让我先回到明妮的问题上来。你同意在40多岁时交到亲密朋友更难吗？我不确定是否同意这个观点。我和很多人交流过。我觉得，只要你学会如何做，这并不像看起来那么难，尽管很多人确实遇到了困难。所以，或许我们可以讨论一下如何让这个过程变得更容易一些。
But what's your opinion? We know that friendships are a huge part of happiness. We know that perhaps the strongest predictor of whether you are a happy person overall with your life is the quality of your relationships. And of course, that includes family. And it may include for some a romantic relationship, but friendships are a huge part of our social existence and our overall happiness.
但你的意见是什么？我们知道友谊是幸福的重要组成部分。我们知道，你是否整体上对自己的生活感到幸福的最强预测因素可能是你的人际关系的质量。当然，这包括家庭。对于一些人来说，还可能包括恋爱关系，但友谊是我们社交存在和整体幸福的重要组成部分。
Despite that obvious importance, there is so little, really good or even any research on it. So I'm going to give you my opinion, but it's not an especially sophisticated one from the research I have read. And I have also reflected on this personally. The idea of friendship in adulthood, it may be actually that the number of new friends actually does decrease in terms of how many friends have you made in the last few months or the last year. I think that number goes down. And maybe that's not totally surprising. Like, as you enter say your 40s or even your 30s, I think what's not clear is that the quality goes down. So there's quantity and quality. I think if we focus on quantity just because you are a new friend and I'm a new friend to you, I find it entirely plausible that the number of new good friends goes down as you march through a lot of adulthood. Maybe, I don't know, maybe until you get to my mom's age and then all you have to do all day is make friends with the people in your retirement home. Which isn't necessarily bad.
尽管友谊的重要性显而易见，但对此进行了真正好的甚至仅有的研究却很少。所以我将给出自己的观点，但这并不是根据我阅读过的研究来的非常复杂的观点。我也从个人的角度对此进行了思考。关于成年后的友谊，实际上可能是指在过去几个月或一年内你交了多少新朋友的数量确实会减少。我认为这个数字会下降。也许这并不完全令人惊讶。当你进入40岁甚至30岁时，质量的下降是不明确的。所以既有数量又有质量。我认为如果我们只专注于数量，仅仅因为你是一个新朋友，我是你的新朋友，我认为新的好朋友的数量在你度过许多成年生活后会减少是完全有可能的。也许，我不知道，直到你达到我妈妈的年龄，然后整天都只需要和你养老院的人交朋友。这并不一定是坏事。
I also wonder though, if our definition of friendship changes, because we're talking about the quality of your friendships and how it's harder in adulthood, but it's not like your friends in high school are that close when you look at them through the same lens that we define friendship now. I mean, it's literally people that you happen to live in proximity to you go to school together. Yes, it leads to a lot of spontaneous interaction, but it doesn't mean that those are high quality friendships. Look at how many people never keep in touch post high school. But what is a friendship to you? I think you would say, I'm a good friend. I would say you're a good friend. But then somebody said, what does that mean? Like, what does it mean that he's a good friend? I'm not sure I would have a great concise definition. I think there are a lot of different ways to view friendship.
我也在想，我们对友谊的定义会不会改变，因为我们在谈论你的友谊质量以及在成年后友谊变得更难，但当你用我们现在定义友谊的同样观点来看待你高中的朋友时，并不是那么亲密。我的意思是，那只是碰巧与你同住在一起上学的人。是的，这会导致许多的自发互动，但这并不意味着那些是高品质的友谊。看看有多少人在高中毕业后就再也不联系了。但是对你来说，什么是友谊呢？我想你会说，我是一个好朋友。我会说你是一个好朋友。但是有人说，那是什么意思？就像，他是一个好朋友意味着什么？我不确定我能给出一个简明扼要的定义。我认为有很多不同的看待友谊的方式。
One construct that I've found reasonably helpful is this idea of friends for a reason, friends for a season, friends for life. And we can't hold all friendships up to the same category. So friends for a reason are kind of like your coworkers or your kids playing the same sports teams. You're planning an event together, whatever, right? Friends for a season that's a high school, you live in the same neighborhood, you went to college together, friends for life. There are very few of these. And I think it's important to set expectations accordingly. You shouldn't hold the bar that everybody has to be a friend for life or it's not worth having. And so it's okay to have these different levels of friendships. And I think it's easier to make friends than we think if we're just a little bit more proactive about it.
我发现一个相对有帮助的构想，那就是朋友有因缘，朋友有季节，朋友有终生。我们不能把所有的友谊归为同一类别。因缘朋友有点像你的同事，或者你的孩子在同一个运动队玩耍。你们一起计划一个活动，无论是什么。而季节朋友则是在高中时期，住在同一个社区，或者在大学一起读书的朋友。终生朋友是非常少的。我认为根据这些情况设定期望是很重要的。你不应该把每个人都看成终生朋友，否则就不值得交往。所以拥有不同层次的友谊是可以接受的。而且我认为，只要我们更积极主动一点，交朋友比我们想象的要容易得多。
Wait, friends for a reason, friends for a season, friends for life. First of all, where does that come from? That's good. I like it. It rhymes. Yeah, I think it came from a poem, but truthfully, I just saw it on TikTok. Let's be real. Okay, but that's good. Do you know what TikTok is? I have heard about TikTok. I've seen it over other people's shoulders. It's about as close as I've gotten. And so we don't have to do like an exegesis of this TikTok saying, but friends for a reason, it's like there's some function like, oh, I'm friends with Mike because we work on character lab together. I guess friends for a season sounds terrible because that sounds like, oh, we just happened to be co-located in time and space for a period like you have your locker next to mine and we're in high school. Yeah, but that's okay. I mean, think how many great friends you have that way? I don't know. I think it bothers me. I think me and my all or nothing temperament is inclined to only care about friends for life and to not love the idea of friends for a reason or friends for a season, honestly.
等一下，朋友分为有原因的，有季节的，和一生的朋友。首先，这句话从哪里来的？不错，我喜欢它。它押韵。是的，我想它来自一首诗，但事实上，我只是在TikTok上看到的。我们实话实说。好吧，但这很好。你知道TikTok是什么吗？我听说过TikTok。我曾在别人的肩膀上看过。这是我接触到的最接近的方式。所以我们不需要详细解释这句TikTok里的话，但是“有原因的朋友”好像有某种功能，比如说“我和迈克是朋友，因为我们一起在角色实验室工作”。我猜“有季节的朋友”听起来很糟糕，因为这意味着，哦，我们只是碰巧在同一个时间和空间共处一段时间，比如说你的储物柜就在我旁边，我们在高中。是的，但这没关系。想想你有多少个伟大的朋友是这样得到的。我不知道。我觉得这让我不高兴。我觉得我这种要么全心全意，要么不在意的脾气倾向于只在乎一生的朋友，而不喜欢有原因或有季节的朋友的想法，老实说。
Which is fair, but going back to Minnie's point, we live in a much more transient society. People move all the time and you may have great friends for life. But if you live in a brand new city, you need some friends and some of them might be your friends for life, but some of them might just be friends for a season and that's okay because nobody wants to just hang out by themselves all day.
这是公平的，但回到明妮的观点，我们生活在一个更加流动的社会中。人们经常搬家，你可能会有一生的好朋友。但如果你住在一个全新的城市，你需要一些朋友，其中一些可能会成为你一生的朋友，但有些人只是一段时间的朋友，这也没关系，因为没有人想一整天都独自待着。
So let's talk if we can for a minute about how do you make friends? Because I think that's kind of Minnie's point. So I want to ask you this great trivia question. What do churches and pubs have in common? Let me then give the Bob Putnam answer. Bob Putnam who wrote Boling Alone about how, as you know, I guess, that Americans are spending time alone that they used to spend with friends.
所以，让我们来谈谈如何交朋友吧，因为我认为这是明妮的观点。所以我想问你这个有趣的问题。教堂和酒吧有什么共同点呢？让我给出鲍勃·普特南的答案。鲍勃·普特南写了《孤独的博林》这本书，探讨了美国人把原本与朋友相处的时间变成了独自度过的情况，你可能已经知道这个。
And this is going to get all the way back to pubs and churches, but his observation as I think it's a political scientist. I can't really easily categorize him because of the interdisciplinary vibe that he gives off. And his observation, using lots and lots of different data sets, is that American adults spend time alone that they used to spend with others.
这将传递给酒吧和教堂，这是他作为一个政治学家的观察。由于他展现出的跨学科氛围，我很难将他简单归类。通过使用大量不同的数据集，他的观察结果是美国成年人现在独自度过了曾经与他人共度的时间。
And he would, I think, say that what churches do and what pubs do and softball leagues for adults and volunteering for the Salvation Army and a lot of other institutions, I think what he would say is that what a pub and a church have in common is bringing together people who otherwise would not come together. You end up getting to know other people that you wouldn't otherwise. Let me ask you, did I get the question right by invoking Bob Putnam? I knew you were going to either invoke Bob Putnam or Ray Oldenburg, who wrote The Great Good Place and talked about the loss of third places.
他会说，我认为，教堂、酒吧、成年人的垒球联赛、为救世军做志愿者和许多其他机构所做的事情，他会说教堂和酒吧的共同之处在于聚集那些本来不会聚集在一起的人。你会最终结识到其他你原本不会认识的人。让我问你，我是否用到了鲍勃·普特纳姆提出的问题？我知道你要么会提到鲍勃·普特纳姆，要么会提到雷·奥尔登堡，他写了《伟大的好地方》，讨论了第三方场所的消失。
So home being the first place, work being the second place. And we used to have all of these third places to which we would go like bowling leagues or churches or pubs or bookstores, barbershops, whatever that was. And that's where we would gather in these areas that were more a neutral ground, a leveler. They were disassociated with home or work. And that's a place where we could kind of gather together.
所以，家是第一个地方，工作是第二个地方。我们过去常常有这些第三个地方，比如保龄球俱乐部、教堂、酒吧、书店、理发店，无论是什么地方。这就是我们聚集在一起的地方，它们是一个更加中立和平等的地方。它们与家庭或工作没有直接联系。那是我们可以聚集在一起的地方。
But I think it's so fun that Bob picked bowling because if you think about, there's nothing grosser, right? You go to this place, you put on somebody else's shoes, and then you stick your fingers into this ball where like 8,000 other people have stuck their gross, grubby fingers. Anyway, bowling can be really fun. But also like, I get why bowling has kind of died a little bit. Let's just be real. Of course, if you're in a bowling league, you are not renting the shoes that they spray with that like disinfectant thing, which may or may not work. And you're not using all those balls that have been grubbly handled by who knows who because if you're in a bowling league, you are that person with their own ball. You hopefully have a monogrammed ball. Yeah, exactly. You haven't engraved.
我认为鲍勃选择保龄球真是太有趣了，因为想想看，还有什么比这更恶心的呢？你去一个地方，穿上别人的鞋子，然后把手指伸进这个球里，而这个球曾经有8000多个人的恶心、脏兮兮的手指伸进过。不过，保龄球确实可以很有趣。但是我也理解为什么保龄球在某种程度上有点衰落了。让我们真实地说吧。当然，如果你参加保龄球联赛，你不会租用那些喷洒消毒剂的鞋子，不管这是否有效。你也不会使用那些由谁知道谁处理过的球，因为如果你参加保龄球联赛，你就是那个有自己球的人。希望你有一个镌刻有自己名字的球。是的，完全正确。
Okay, here's my response to Putnam because he's absolutely right. Obviously, I'm not foolhardy enough to argue against Bob Putnam. But this idea that many is asking about, how do you make friends in your 40s? It's a little more difficult, you know, Oldenburg's death of third places. But I firmly believe that if you're pretty proactive, you can kind of create or still find these third places. So I have a really good friend who just moved to New York, didn't know a soul and joined three different adult softball leagues. In sequence or joined three in synchrony? No, at the same time, so that he can be like playing every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights or something.
好的，以下是我对普特南的回应，因为他是完全正确的。显然，我并不愚蠢到对抗鲍勃·普特南。但是这个许多人在询问的问题，40岁如何交朋友？这有点困难，你知道，奥登堡关于第三空间的消失。但我坚信，如果你积极主动一点，你可以创造或者仍然找到这些第三空间。所以我有一个非常好的朋友刚刚搬到纽约，一个人都不认识，他加入了三个不同的成年棒球联赛。是按照顺序加入还是同时加入？不，同时加入，这样他可以每个星期二、星期三和星期四晚上打球。
Another good friend of mine, she moved to Utah, didn't know a soul. And so she joined all of these Facebook groups. One was called Utah Adventure Girls. She went to University of Michigan, another one, University of Michigan, Salt Lake City Spirit Group or Young Professionals of Salt Lake City, and found all of these ways together.
我还有一个很好的朋友，她搬到了犹他州，一个人也不认识。于是她加入了很多Facebook群组，其中一个叫做“犹他州冒险女孩”。她还加入了密歇根大学的一个群组，叫做“密歇根大学盐湖城精神团队”或者“盐湖城青年专业人士”，找到了各种交流机会。
Now, no offense to you or me, but I think if you and I joined some of these adult sports leagues, we would literally lose more friends than we could make. Why? Because we would get competitive and awful. When's the last time you caught a fly ball anywhere? Oh, right. We would bring down the teams so badly that we would cause harm. I mean, again, no offense to either one of us, but maybe bar trivia. I think you'd probably do really well in a bar trivia league.
现在，不是冒犯你或是我，但我认为如果你我参加一些成年人体育联赛，我们会失去更多朋友而非结交新友。为什么呢？因为我们会变得竞争心理和可怕。你上次在哪里接到过一个飞球？嗯，是的。我们会给球队带来很大负面影响。我是说，再次强调，不是冒犯你我中的任何一个，但也许参加酒吧知识竞赛会更适合。我觉得在酒吧知识竞赛联赛中，你可能会做得很好。
Kidding aside, I think that if I were moving to New York, or in some other circumstance where I suddenly did want more new friends, which I'm not on the hunt for, I shall say, I do want to increase the quality of my friendships. But I don't want to introduce new friends into my life. I hope that doesn't make me seem cholish. But that's what many struggling against and other people, right? Because they go to these cities and people are kind of like, I'm good. I don't want anybody else. Yeah, they're good. Exactly.
说开玩笑的，我认为如果我搬到纽约或者在其他突然想要更多新朋友的情况下（尽管我并不是在找朋友），我必须承认，我想要提高我现有友谊的质量。但我不想引入新的朋友到我的生活中。希望这样不会让我显得自私。但这不正是许多人所挣扎的吗？因为他们来到这些城市，人们会说："我很好，我不需要其他人。"是的，他们很满足。
I think that has to be true. And again, the research is thin on this, but just the motives of the people that you want to be friends with being less in the same direction, because they already live there and they already have their friends. But if I did have to be in many shoes, then I would do exactly what your New York friend did, which is I would join clubs. I think you're right. So go find the club that exists still, even if the number of clubs is declining, even if Americans are not going to clubs as much.
我认为这是真实的。再说一次，这方面的研究并不充足，但你想要成为朋友的人的动机可能会不太一样，因为他们已经住在那里并且已经有了自己的朋友。但如果我确实处在许多人的鞋子里，那我会像你的纽约朋友一样，加入俱乐部。我认为你是对的。所以去找到仍然存在的俱乐部，即使俱乐部的数量正在减少，即使美国人不再像以前那样经常去俱乐部了。
I was recently not only reading everything I could by Bob Putnam, which is a lot. It's kind of a full-time job. But then I came across this documentary that just came out from a student of his named Pete Davis. And it's called Join or Die. And it couldn't have a better title, actually. Sounds threatening. I think the etymology of it is Ben Franklin. Yes, the yellow flag with the snake. Yeah.
最近，我不仅尽可能阅读了鲍勃·普特南的所有作品，而且数量相当可观，它几乎成了一份全职工作。然后，我偶然发现了一个新出的纪录片，它是由他的一位学生彼特·戴维斯拍摄的。这部纪录片名为《加入或灭亡》，实际上标题选择得不能再好了，听起来有种威胁感。据我所知，它的词源可追溯到本·富兰克林，对，就是那副黄色旗帜上画有蛇的图案。
Is this about loneliness? The documentary isn't about loneliness per se. And it's also not about whatever Ben Franklin meant in the original Join or Die. I think that was actually a political thing about the colonies, I guess, staying together. I'm not a student of history. Yes. And this sounds like something brought to you by ISIS. Join or die. Yeah, I know. It could have many different vibes.
这是否与孤独有关？这部纪录片并不是直接与孤独相关的。它也不是关于本·富兰克林在原著《加入或死亡》中的意思。我想那实际上是关于殖民地团结一起的政治事件，我猜的，我并不是历史学生。是的。而且这听起来像是ISIS带给你的东西。加入或死亡。是的，我知道。它可能有很多不同的感觉。
It basically is a biography of Bob Putnam from when he was a kid growing up in the United States when people did join things, like bowling leagues, including the bowling league. If I remember correctly that Bob actually was in, I think he was on the bowling team maybe for his high school. And then all the other things that people did. I mean, there were like bridge clubs, there were garden clubs. I'm not saying these things didn't have their own dynamics that were sometimes problematic due to race or gender, but there were clubs like America had a heyday of clubs when Bob Putnam was coming of age.
基本上，这本书讲述了鲍勃·普特南的传记，从他还是一个在美国成长的孩子开始，当时人们会加入各种组织，比如保龄球联盟，包括保龄球联盟。如果我没记错，我觉得鲍勃实际上就是其中的一员，也许在他上高中时在保龄球队。还有其他人们参与的活动。我的意思是，像桥牌俱乐部、园艺俱乐部之类的。我并不是说这些活动没有一些由于种族或性别问题而引发的动态的问题，但是在普特南成长的时代，美国确实是俱乐部荣耀的时代。
Then as Bob Putnam has documented that club culture, the joining culture, the kind of like, I'm going to go and hang out with these people who are not my family. They may not even be like my three closest friends, but there's this thing that I do every week. And it's a big part of my life. That is what he's documenting as being on the decline, which he meaning Bob Putnam, but also I think his former student Pete Davis, now filmmaker, etc. Would say that has been, yes, a contributor to loneliness, which we can talk about, although it wasn't the central focus of this documentary.
然后，正如鲍勃·普特南所记录的那样，社交俱乐部的文化、加入的文化，就像是去和这些不是我的家人的人一起闲逛。他们甚至可能不是我最亲密的三个朋友，但这是我每周都会做的一件事，它是我生活的重要组成部分。这就是他所记录的正在衰败的事物，他指的是鲍勃·普特南，但我认为他的前学生皮特·戴维斯，现在是电影制作人等等，也会说这已经成为孤独感的一个原因，虽然它并不是这部纪录片的核心关注点，我们可以讨论一下。
I think their focus was more like, it's the dissolution of social capital, which is undermining trust, which is undermining democracy. So I think they were maybe a little bit more focused on how we cannot have a democracy unless we know each other and trust each other. But I think as a psychologist, absolutely, my head goes to like, oh, God, that sounds lonely. I get the join or die now, basically saying it's an existential threat to our entire way of life.
我认为他们更关注的是社会资本的消解，这种消解破坏了信任，从而破坏了民主。因此，我认为他们可能更加关注的是，除非我们相互了解并相互信任，否则我们无法拥有民主。但作为一名心理学家，我的第一个反应是，噢，天哪，这听起来好孤独。基本上，它就像是说我们整个生活方式面临着存在威胁，要么团结起来，要么灭亡。
So now I need to ask about the friend, not the softball league, thrice weekly friend, but the other friend that you had who joined these social Facebook groups, like what happened to your friend? Did she use these Facebook groups to go out and actually meet people in person? I mean, even the very word that I say actually is just full of condescension and opinionatedness. Yes, these Facebook groups were specifically designed to get people together in person.
现在我需要问的是关于一个朋友的事情，不是关于垒球联赛的朋友，而是你另外一个朋友，她加入了这些社交Facebook群组，所以想知道她怎么了？她是不是利用这些Facebook群组来和人们面对面地交流？我的意思是，即使我所说的这些话实际上充满了傲慢和主观态度。是的，这些Facebook群组专门设计用来让人们能够真实地相聚一起。
Okay, so they were like a conduit? Yes. I mean, this Utah adventure girls, they would get together and go hiking on weekends or go skiing or go do outdoor activities. But the whole point was to bring people together.
好的，所以他们就像是一个中介？是的。我的意思是，这些犹他探险女孩们会在周末聚在一起去远足、滑雪或进行户外活动。但整个目的是为了让人们联系在一起。
So back to Minnie's question, Minnie is not alone. There was a 2021 survey from the Survey Center of American Life. And they said that the number of Americans who report having no close friends has risen dramatically. And the number of people reporting 10 or more close friends has dropped dramatically over the same period of time. Now, I want to be careful because 2021, I call little BS on the data because we're just coming out of the pandemic. I don't know about you, but I felt like my ability to even make small talk at massively Atrofeed.
那么回到明妮的问题，明妮并不孤单。根据美国生活调查中心于2021年进行的一项调查，声称没有亲近朋友的美国人数量大幅增加，而在同一时期报告拥有10个或更多亲近朋友的人数也大幅下降。现在，我想要小心一点，因为对于2021年的数据，我对其有些怀疑，因为我们刚刚走出疫情。不知道你是否有同样的感觉，但我觉得即使进行些微的闲聊都感觉非常吃力。
But back in 1990, 33% of people said they had 10 or more close friends. And in 2021, it was down to 13% of people who said they had 10 or more close friends. Can I ask you how many close? Well, you don't have to tell me the number of close friends you have, but just to put ourselves into the data in 2023. Do you have 10 or more close friends? Absolutely. Yes. I knew you're going to say that because I think I know 10 or more of your actual close friends. I think that's remarkable.
但是回到1990年，有33%的人说他们有10个或者更多的亲密友友。而到了2021年，只有13%的人说他们有10个或者更多的亲密友友。我可以问你有多少个亲密的好友吗？好吧，你不必告诉我你有多少个亲密的好友，但是只是为了将我们自己放入2023年的数据中。你有10个或者更多亲密的好友吗？当然。是的。我知道你会这么说，因为我觉得我知道你真正亲密的好友中的10个或者更多。我觉得这太了不起了。
Do you have 10 or more close friends? I don't think I have 10 close friends. I have three girlfriends that I talk to every week. As you know, these are friends who don't live in Philadelphia. So we talk on the phone and it's, you know, multitasking. So I'm like getting my workout in, but also talking to these girlfriends, not all at the same time, but individually.
你有10个或更多的亲近朋友吗？我觉得我没有10个亲近的朋友。我有三个女朋友，每周都会跟她们聊天。就像你知道的，她们不住在费城，所以我们是通过电话交流的，同时我也在做其他事情。就像是一边锻炼身体，一边跟这些女朋友聊天，当然不是同时进行，而是一个一个地联系。
Do you get together in person? Like once a year, you all gather? They kind of know of each other, but they're not friends of each other. It's like hub and spoke. Oh, they're not friends. God. Yeah. So it's like, Angela's friend with friend one, Angela's friend with friend two, Angela's friend with friend three, but friend one, friend two, and friend three don't really have a meaningful relationship. They're not friends with each other. I don't think that's unusual, by the way.
你们在现实中聚会吗？比如一年一次，大家一起聚会？他们之间有所了解，但他们并不是彼此的朋友。就像网络中心枢纽一样。哦，他们不是朋友。是的。所以就好像，安吉拉是朋友一的朋友，安吉拉是朋友二的朋友，安吉拉是朋友三的朋友，但朋友一、朋友二和朋友三之间并没有真正的有意义的关系。他们并不是彼此的朋友。顺便说一下，我觉得这并不奇怪。
No, I think that's very fair. I think that my hub spoke model is more I've got friends, but they're like groups of friends in different areas. So Angela, you and I were potentially going to hike Mount Kilimanjaro last summer together, which you did. I did and we missed you desperately. But that group of people, I was friends with all of them, but most of them did not know each other until we got on the hike. But they trusted me to put together a group that they would be with 24 seven for two full weeks because of that friendship model. And now they're all very close. So one of the things I love to do is to take various groups of friends and bring them together because I think that adds so much richness because if I really like hanging out with you, I think you're a great person tonight, not that everyone's going to bond, but I like that gathering aspect of friendship.
不，我认为这是非常公平的。我认为我的中心枢纽伙伴模式更适合。我有一些朋友，但他们都是不同地区的朋友圈。所以，安吉拉，你和我去年夏天有可能一起爬乞力马扎罗山的，你爬了，我也爬了，我们非常想念你。但是，那群人中，我和所有人都是朋友，但其中大多数人在爬山之前并不认识对方。但是由于友谊模式，他们相信我组成的团队在接下来的两周里24小时不离不弃。现在他们都非常亲密。所以，我喜欢做的一件事就是把不同的朋友群聚集在一起，因为我认为这样会增加友谊的丰富度。如果我真的喜欢和你一起玩，我认为你是个很好的人，虽然不是每个人都能建立起联系，但我喜欢朋友聚集在一起的方面。
So this idea of friends who are friends with each other, I called this psychologist recently named Jillian Sandstrom because Jillian studies friendship. I think she's at University of Sussex now. And I didn't know her very well, but I had read enough in this very slim friendship literature to know that she was one of the people who actually did good work. So just a few weeks ago, I called her up, I introduced myself, I said, I've been reading her papers, I'm not a friend, but maybe we could be friends. And she said that she has enough friends and she's not interested. She said that she would be happy to talk to me about it. She was friendly. I will say that. I feel like friendly, by the way, can be the exact opposite of friendship. Sometimes it's almost this very. Because it's superficial. Yeah, it's very almost condescending sometimes. What? Friendly is condescending? How? It can be. Yes, because people are just like tolerating you and they're being friendly, but not like. God, Mike, that is such an unusually cynical thing for Mike Montesay. I know, I'm sorry. It's okay. I just am like, wow, I think that's the most cynical thing I've ever heard you say.
所以关于彼此成为朋友这个想法，我最近联系了一位叫做朱莉安·桑德斯特罗姆（Jillian Sandstrom）的心理学家，因为朱莉安正在研究友谊。我想她现在在苏塞克斯大学。尽管我并不太了解她，但我在这方面的文献中读到了足够多的东西，以至于知道她是一位真正做了好工作的人之一。所以就在几个星期前，我给她打了电话，自我介绍了一下，说我一直在读她的论文，虽然我们不是朋友，但也许我们可以成为朋友。她说她已经有足够多的朋友了，对此不感兴趣。她表示愿意和我讨论这个话题，她是友善的，我可以这样说。顺便说一句，友善实际上可能是友谊的相反极端。有时候它几乎是一种很肤浅的互动。是的，有时候它甚至带有一种居高临下的态度。什么？友善会有居高临下的态度吗？它可能会。是的，因为人们只是容忍你，并且表现得友善，但并不像朋友那样。天哪，迈克，这对于迈克·蒙特赛来说，这是非常不寻常的愤世嫉俗的话。我知道，对不起。没关系。我只是觉得，哇，我觉得这是你说过的最愤世嫉俗的话了。
So, Jillian Sandstrom has shown in a variety of very clever experiments that if you strike up a friendly conversation with the person that you will likely never see again, you're certainly unlikely to have a substantial relationship with of any kind, that nevertheless, these very weak ties, these super distant, but she would say, still warm interactions can be really meaningful and that we should do it more often, that we should talk to strangers. Minus if you own a windowless white van. No, not a lot. Yeah, yes. Children do not talk to all the strangers and definitely not if they're in a van with blacked out windows. There's some other warning signs that we could probably list. Someone's offering you free candy, probably not a good choice. Never take the free candy. Here's the thing. I think so often people are wearing their earbuds all the time or they're, I find that sometimes I'm trying to be so productive that it kills those subtle interactions where you can have those passing moments. And I think while very rare, it's not like I have had the opportunity to become best friends with the person checking me out at Trader Joe's or somewhere else. It is possible that you can create good friendships that can arise in the most random of ways. And so, I hear what you're saying, we've sort of cut ourselves off from that opportunity.
因此，吉利安·桑德斯特罗姆在许多非常巧妙的实验中表明，如果你与一个你很可能再也见不到的人开始友好的对话，你很少会有任何类型的重要关系。然而，她会说，这些非常薄弱的联系，这些超远的，但仍然温暖的互动可能是非常有意义的，我们应该经常这样做，应该跟陌生人聊天。当然，如果你拥有一辆没有窗户的白色货车，那就不算太多了。是的，是的，孩子们不应该和所有的陌生人说话，尤其是在车里的黑化了的窗户里。还有其他一些可能的警示信号，我们可以列出来。如果有人给你免费糖果，可能不是一个好选择。永远不要接受免费糖果。问题是，我认为人们经常戴着耳机，或者他们在试图变得非常高效的时候，可能会错过那些细微的互动时刻。我认为虽然非常罕见，但并非像我曾经有机会与在Trader Joe's或其他地方为我结帐的人成为最好的朋友。但是在最随机的方式中，你可以建立起良好的友谊。所以，我明白你的意思，我们已经断绝了那种机会。
Well, here's the thing. In this rambling conversation that I had with Jillian and then in a second conversation, there's somebody who I do consider a good friend who wanted to get in on it. I have a good friend named Lyle Unger. He's a professor in my university. He's a collaborator. He and I had kind of separately been talking about friendships so when I said to him, I reached out and called Jillian Sandstrom out of the blue. He was like, I want to talk to Jillian.
好吧，事情是这样的。在我与吉莉安有一次即兴的对话之后，还有一次对话中，有一个我认为是一位好朋友想参与其中。我有一个好朋友叫莱尔•安格尔，他是我大学的一位教授，也是我的合作者。他和我分别讨论过友谊的话题，所以当我告诉他我突然联系了吉莉安•桑德斯特罗姆时，他说他想和吉莉安聊聊。
So the three of us had a conversation. Look at you see this is called introducing friends to friends. It is. And actually, if I keep doing this, all my friends will know all my friends and I'll get what I always wanted. But in the three way conversation we had, so this is Lyle and Jillian and me. We all then agreed like, wow, there should be more research on friendship. There's very little known about how do you make new friends in your forties, etc. I think what Jillian might say is that these friendly conversations you have with your barista, I don't think she's saying you can't have a good friend that comes out of it. But I think she's mostly saying that that is an end in itself, like living a life where you are not totally anonymous, that you've recreated some version of the kind of communities that we used to. These are my words, not hers, but kind of like the small town context in which probably most of human life was carried out. Like, that's good.
所以我们三个人进行了一次对话。看到这一点，这就是将朋友介绍给朋友的方式。确实如此，如果我一直这么做，所有的朋友都会认识我的所有朋友，我也会得到我一直想要的。但在我们这三个人的对话中，有莱尔、吉利安和我。我们都同意，哇，应该对友谊进行更多的研究。关于四十岁左右如何交新朋友的知识非常有限。我认为吉利安可能会说，你与咖啡师进行的友好对话，她并不是说你不能在其中找到一个好朋友。但我认为她主要是在说，这本身就是一个目的，就像过一种不完全匿名的生活，重新创造出我们曾经拥有的社区的一种版本。这是我自己的话，而不是她的，但就像那种大部分人类生活可能都发生在小镇背景下的情境一样，那是很好的。
But none of us on that call said, okay, we've solved the problem for anybody like many who needs to make new friends. I think we were all, at least in that conversation, focused on how do I become better friends with Mike? Like Mike and Angela are already good friends, but how would they maintain or even deepen that? You're saying Lyle was asking how to become better friends with me? I love that. Hey, Lyle, I actually know Lyle not well. You do know Lyle? How do you know Lyle? We've met through you. You know what I'm realizing is that you're more important in my life than I am in yours, which is hurtful, but beautiful. No, I think you're realizing I have no memory, obviously, of anything.
但是在那次电话中，我们谁都没有说：“好吧，我们已经解决了所有需要结交新朋友的人的问题。”我认为我们当时至少在那次对话中，都集中在如何与迈克成为更好的朋友上。比如迈克和安吉拉已经是好朋友了，但他们如何保持甚至加深这种友谊呢？你说莱尔是在问如何与我成为更好的朋友？我很喜欢那个。嘿，莱尔，我其实不太了解莱尔。你认识莱尔吗？我们是通过你认识的。我现在意识到的是，在我的生活中你比我对你的重要性更大，这让我心痛，但也很美丽。不，我想你是意识到我对任何事情都没有记忆。
Here's the story I want to tell you, because I think it's so germane to what you've just been talking about. There's a guy, Dieter Ughdorf, who told this story about a man who was at the post office during the holidays when it's super busy. You know how long those lines get, everyone's mailing their packages. And there's this guy there, an older gentleman, and he's just there to buy stamps. And this woman right in front of him is trying to be nice. And she says, oh, you know what, you can actually just go to the auto pay machine, and it'll just print out your stamps. And the man looked back at her and he said, yes. But the machine doesn't ask how my arthritis is. And it's just really sad, but true, but beautiful story about even passing human connection allows us to feel seen. And that's really important.
这是我想告诉你的故事，因为我觉得它与你刚刚说的非常相关。故事里有个叫迪特·乌格多夫的人讲述了一个关于一个在节假日期间到邮局的男人的故事，那时候邮局非常忙碌。你知道那里的队伍有多长，每个人都在寄包裹。有一个年长的男士在那里，他只是想买邮票。而他前面有位女士想要帮忙。她说，哦，你知道吗，你可以去自动付款机那里，它会直接打印出你要的邮票。那个男士回头看着她说，是的。但机器不会问我关节炎的情况。这是一个非常悲伤但真实而美丽的故事，即使只是简短的人际交往也让我们感到被看到。这非常重要。
Isn't there some country that is not the United States that has the slow check outline? Yes, I know that one. What country is it like, I'm going to guess somewhere like Denmark. It would be the kind of thing that Denmark would do, right? Like, and if you want to have a conversation with the person who's checking out your groceries and you don't want to zip in and out and run your credit card by yourself, then you can choose the slow line. Is that Denmark? Yes, you actually emailed me an article about this recently. And I can't remember. But yes, I think it's somewhere in Scandinavia. And it's that same idea. Yeah, go through the slow line. If you basically need something to talk to you, it's creating another third place.
有没有一些不是美国的国家有慢速结账的服务？对，我知道有一个。像哪个国家呢，我猜可能是丹麦之类的地方。这种事情丹麦可能会这样做，对吗？比如说，如果你想和结账员聊天，不想很快就结完账然后自己刷信用卡，那你可以选择慢速排队。是丹麦吗？对，你最近给我发过一篇关于这个的文章。我记不清了。但是是的，我想那个国家应该在斯堪的纳维亚地区的某个地方。就是那个意思，你可以选择慢速排队，如果你需要和别人聊天的话，这样就创造出另外一个聊天的地方了。
Okay, so what I don't think we're doing for Minnie is telling her go through the slow check outline, you know, strike up a conversation with a stranger. I think for Minnie, the best thing we've said so far is that she should join something. I don't know if I want to say Minnie, join or die. But like joining a softball league or joining a Facebook group that will eventually lead you to meet the people in the Facebook group. I mean, the old adage is if you want a friend, be one.
好的，那么我认为我们对于明妮（Minnie）所做的事情是没有告诉她经历慢慢检查的步骤，你知道，与陌生人搭讪。我认为对于明妮来说，我们迄今为止说的最好的一件事是她应该加入一些东西。我不知道我是否想说明妮，加入或者死。但是比如说加入一个垒球联赛或者加入一个最终会让你遇到Facebook群组的人的Facebook群组。我的意思是，那句古老的格言是，如果你想要一个朋友，就要先成为一个朋友。
Let me share a little from Marissa Franco, who's at the University of Maryland. And she basically talks about the fact that some people who don't have as many friends or potentially are a little lonelier are also hyper vigilant for feelings of rejection. And they think that anyone who is kind of shutting them down, they're like, Oh, it must be me.
让我和大家分享一下来自马里萨·弗兰科的一点观点。她在马里兰大学。她基本上谈到了一些人没有太多朋友或者可能有些孤独时，他们对被拒绝的感受特别敏感。他们会认为任何一种对他们冷淡的行为都是因为他们自己。
Research shows that those who view friendships is something that happen because of luck are lonelier later in life. And she talks about this, she said, and those who see it as something that happened based on effort are less lonely in later years. It basically comes down to this idea of locus of control. And if you believe that you can impact your friendships and you can create that, then it's sort of this self-fulfilling prophecy. But if you think that you are someone that nobody wants to hang out with, then you, you know, fall into that same thing.
研究显示，那些认为友谊是因为运气而发生的人在后来的生活中更加孤独。她谈到了这一点，她说，那些认为友谊是基于努力而发生的人在后来的岁月中更少感到孤独。这基本上归结为控制的内外属性的概念。如果你相信你可以影响你的友谊，并且你可以主动创造它，那么这就是一种自我实现的预言。但如果你认为自己是没有人想和你一起玩的人，那么你就会陷入同样的困境。
Right. Now, Angela, I have one last thing that I think is one more opportunity for many and other people in many situations. All ears.
好的。现在，安吉拉，我有一件最后的事情，我认为这是许多人和其他人在许多情况下的另一个机会。我洗耳恭听。
There's this dating app called Bumble. I've heard of that. And Bumble is this app that was built to challenge the rules of dating. And basically, it requires women to make the first move. But then Bumble introduced a feature called Bumble BFF for best friends forever, BFF. And it was just a platonic way to meet friends. So same idea, you're swiping left and right saying, yes, I want to be friends with them or not.
有一个叫做Bumble的约会应用，我听说过它。Bumble是一个旨在挑战约会规则的应用。基本上，它要求女性主动迈出第一步。但是后来Bumble推出了一个名为Bumble BFF的功能，用于寻找最好的朋友BFF。这只是一种建立纯友谊关系的方式。所以，和原先的想法类似，你左右滑动来表示是否想和这些人成为朋友。
But what percentage of men on Bumble do you think have logged into the best friends forever feature?
你认为在Bumble上有多少男性会使用“最好的朋友永远”功能？
Oh, my gosh. How wrong could I get this? Let's see. How many men would log into the best friends thing? I am thinking 5%.
哦，天哪。这我错得有多离谱呢？让我想想。有多少男人会登录这个“最好的朋友”这个东西呢？我想大概5%吧。
It is hard for you to have been more wrong, but you did a great job. 2.90%
你很难更错误了，但你做得很棒。2.90%
No, really men want to have friends. 90%. Yes. Of men have logged into it. Like gosh, that makes me feel better about men, I guess. People need friends, right?
不，真的男人也想有朋友。90%的男人登录过此应用。哎呀，这让我对男性感觉更好了吧。人们都需要朋友，对吗？
So this Bumble BFF thing, here's my favorite. There's a woman Beth Gillette wrote about her experience on Bumble BFF. Now she said it didn't work as well as she had hoped because most of the people she matched with were actually looking for roommates or they were promoters at clubs.
关于这个Bumble BFF的事情，我最喜欢的是这样的。有个叫贝丝·吉列特的女士写了她在Bumble BFF上的经历。她说这个APP并没有达到她的期望，因为她配对到的大部分人实际上是在寻找室友，或者是俱乐部的宣传人员。
And she said, this is what the promoters at clubs would say. Why don't you get a group of girls together for a free table and drinks? And Beth wrote, while I'm always down for a free table and drinks, I feel like if I already had a group of girls to bring with me, I wouldn't be on this app. Hello.
她说，这就是俱乐部的推销员会说的话。为什么不找一群女孩一起来免费享用桌子和饮料？贝丝写道，虽然我总是愿意免费享用桌子和饮料，但我觉得如果我已经有了一群女孩可以带来，我就不会用这个应用了。你好。
But here's the deal. If you do need friends, the best way is to go out there, form a group, find a group, do something like that. Or Bumble BFF, maybe you'll get a roommate, maybe you'll be invited to a free club to hang out for the night. Who knows?
但是问题是，如果你真的需要朋友，最好的办法就是走出去，组建一个团体，找到一个团体，这样做一些事情。或者尝试Bumble BFF，也许你会找到一个室友，也许你会被邀请去一个免费的俱乐部玩一晚。谁知道呢？
My final word on friendship is very consistent with that. And that's actually where the conversation that I had with Lyle, an old friend, and Jillian, a new friend, a friend in formation, where we came to the very end is we said, gosh, there should be more scientific research. Maybe we should do it together.
我对友谊的最终观点与这一观点非常一致。实际上，我在与老朋友Lyle和新朋友Jillian，一位正在形成的朋友进行的对话中，我们最终得出的结论是，天啊，应该有更多的科学研究。也许我们应该一起来做一些研究。
And I think the hypothesis that the three of us came to is what I really believe, which is that friendship is among other things. It is effort. You know what Marissa Franco is talking about. You have to invest. I think that's the number one mistake that I have made in my life where I have under-invested in the work, in the time on task of friendship building.
我认为我们三个人提出的假设是我真正相信的，友谊是包括其他因素的一种努力。你知道玛丽莎·弗兰科在谈论什么。你必须付出投入。我认为这是我人生中犯下的头号错误，我在友谊建立的工作、时间和任务方面投入不足。
And so the advice that I would have is very much consistent with what you're saying. It's like, people want it. People maybe want it even more than we think they do. Certainly men apparently want it more than I thought they did. But if you want it, you got to work for it. But the dividends, they're the same price list because I feel like a visa commercial. I think that's MasterCard. Is it MasterCard? Yeah.
因此，我想给出的建议与你所说的非常一致。就好像，人们想要它。人们可能比我们想象的还要更想要它。显然，男性似乎比我想象中更想要它。但是如果你想要它，就必须为之努力工作。但是回报是一样的，因为我感觉就像是一则签证广告。我想那是万事达卡。是万事达卡吗？对的。
Anyway, that's our hypothesis that friendship requires investment now for a quote unquote payoff later. And that's the model that we should have when we think about friendship and maybe not things that are automatic, not even something that's easy, and definitely not something that's immediate.
无论如何，这是我们的假设，即友谊现在需要投资，以便日后获得所谓的回报。当我们思考友谊时，我们应该采取这种模式，而不是自动发生的事情，甚至不是容易的事情，更不是立即发生的事情。
Well, look, I hope to join up with the three of you. I'm going to bring the t-shirts that say join or die for a new bowling league. That sounds great. I'll see you there.
嗯，听着，我希望能和你们三个一起参加。我会带上印有“加入或灭亡”的T恤，为一支新的保龄球联盟。听起来很棒！我会在那里见到你们。
Still to come on No Stupid Questions, a replay of Angela's conversation with chef and author Gabriel Hamilton from April 2020. We're going to sit down here, make beautiful paints while everyone here is going to hell in a hand basket.
接下来在《毫无愚蠢问题》节目中，将回放安吉拉与厨师兼作家加布里埃尔·汉密尔顿的对话，此对话录于2020年4月。我们将在这里坐下来，享受美好的谈话，而与此同时，大家好像都在一步步走向毁灭。
Now, here's Angela's conversation with chef Gabriel Hamilton from the early days of NSQ. Hi, Gabriel. I'm so glad that you're joining me. Can you introduce yourself to our NSQ listeners? I'm Gabriel Hamilton, and I'm the chef and owner of Prune Restaurant in New York City, and a columnist for the New York Times.
现在，让我们来欣赏Angela与NSQ的主厨Gabriel Hamilton之间的对话。嗨，Gabriel。很高兴你能加入我。你能向我们的NSQ听众介绍一下自己吗？我是Gabriel Hamilton，是纽约市普鲁恩餐厅的主厨兼拥有者，也是《纽约时报》的专栏作家。
I am dying to ask you a question that has actually been simmering as I read through essays that you've published in the Times, and of course I read Blood, Blood, Buns, and Butter. Chefing, if it's even a verb, chefing, it seems to me as a non-chef that requires a multiplicity of skills that don't necessarily go together in the same people to be a great chef. You're creative, you're interested in food, you love feeding people, but also you have to somehow manage people and deal with finances and investors. What does the word chef mean to you? I mean, chefing is the greatest verb. We often say like, someone needs to chef this meeting because it's not going well. The chef is the chief, the leader, the big boss. I don't like to throw it around. Even when I opened my own restaurant, I didn't call myself a chef for the first 10 years, and frankly, I wasn't one. Even though I was running a restaurant, I referred to myself as a cook. There was a time when I started to realize, I'm allowed the title now. I'm the chief here, for sure.
我非常想问你一个问题，这个问题在我阅读你在时代杂志上发表的文章，当然还有《血、血、面包和黄油》时一直在酝酿着。作为一个非厨师的人，我觉得厨师，如果它是一个动词，需要多种技能，而这些技能不一定在同一个人身上出现，才能成为一个伟大的厨师。你很有创造力，对食物感兴趣，喜欢给人们做饭，但同时你还必须管理人员、处理财务和投资者的事务。对你来说，“厨师”这个词是什么意思呢？我的意思是，“厨师”是一个伟大的动词。我们经常说，“有人需要主持这次会议，因为进展并不顺利。”厨师就是首脑、领导者、大老板。我不喜欢随便这么说。即使当我开了自己的餐厅，头10年内我也不称自己为厨师，坦率地说，我当时并不是一个厨师。尽管我在经营一家餐厅，但我自称为一个厨师，而不是一个厨师。后来我渐渐意识到，我有资格拥有这个头衔了。我在这里是首脑，毫无疑问。
So in the study of excellence, what you find is that there are some people who are not just 10% better than other people or 25%. They are factors better. They are true outliers. And one of the theories of human excellence is the reason why the outliers are so outside the distribution is because they are able to be, say in the top 10% on eight different skills that you need to be successful in this overall endeavor. So running a restaurant, being the chef of a restaurant, there's so many qualitatively different things that you have to do at least pretty well, if not really well. So what's your perspective on this? Because if that is the case, it's rare then to have all those things. Yeah, to be a chef and to be a great chef are two different things.
在研究卓越性时，你会发现有些人不仅仅比其他人强10%或25%，他们的优势要大得多。他们是真正的离群值。而人类卓越的理论之一认为，离群值之所以如此超出常规分布，是因为他们能够在八个不同的技能上达到前10%的水平，这些技能在整个努力中都是成功所必需的。所以经营一家餐厅，成为一名厨师，需要做的事情有很多种，而且各有不同的质量要求，你对此有什么看法呢？因为如果是这种情况的话，同时具备所有这些技能是很罕见的。是的，成为一名厨师和成为一名优秀的厨师是两码事。
Several years ago, I did a dinner at WD-50, Wiley-Doo-Franze restaurant in New York, and it was a veritable, unreal, who's who, of the greatest chefs in the world. Wait, you made the dinner? I was part of the group, the team, that went and did this dinner. It was rinsépi. It was Daniel Homb. It was all the Swedish and Nordic. The international luminaries. It was unbelievable. Someone in fact wrote that should there have been a fire in that building, the world's 50 best would have gone down. I was literally thinking that I was like, I hope nothing happened. The future of food. It was just a chef fest, a cluster F of the world's greatest chefs. And everyone's working on their apple that explodes into pearls and their smoked seagull poop or whatever the hell they're working on in all their little corners. And no one is wearing a chef jacket. Everyone's in their t-shirt and no one has their hair pulled back and Daniel Bouloud walks in in his tight crisp white jacket, his creased pants, his loafers. Salut! Bose up everyone. Hello. And in 10 seconds, it was like dad's home because someone had to actually chef the gong party. Someone had to chef the chefs. And no one was doing it. Everyone was sort of being their creative genius over in their little corners and their tweezers and their smoked machines. And it took Daniel, who was like, let's go. What's the run of show? How is this going to go? Like chop chop. And it was so fun to watch all the people in the room sort of stand up straight. But I think that's what chefing is. In addition to all that creativity, all the fish have to swim in the same direction. You have to honor all kinds of individuality and at the same time get a group to work in common purpose. The expectations have to be made explicit and you have to teach.
几年前，我在纽约的WD-50餐厅参加了一场盛大的晚宴，那里集结了世界上最杰出的厨师。等等，你举办了这场晚宴？我是那个小组，那个团队的一员，我们一起筹办了这场晚宴。那晚餐简直是无与伦比的，超现实的，最伟大厨师的盛会。有丹尼尔·来自·范兹、丹尼尔·洪、以及瑞典和北欧的所有厨师名人。这是不可思议的。事实上，有人曾经说，如果建筑里发生火灾，全球最佳的50个厨师榜单就毁了。我当时真的在想，希望不要发生任何事故。这是美食的未来。这只是一场厨师的盛宴，世界上最伟大的厨师们的一场集会。每个人都在制作他们的苹果爆炸成珍珠，或者熏制的海鸥粪便，或者在他们各自的小角落里做着什么。没有人穿着厨师外套，每个人都穿着T恤，没有人把头发束起来，丹尼尔·布卢德穿着他的紧身白夹克，熨得一丝不苟的裤子，他的皮鞋走了进来。大家好！向大家敬个礼。大家好。然后10秒钟后，就像爸爸回家了一样，因为有人必须实际执行主厨的任务，有人必须去指导这些厨师。但是没有人这样做。每个人都在各自的小角落里发挥创造力，用着镊子和熏制机器。然后丹尼尔出现了，他说，咱们开始吧，节目单怎么安排？快点。看到房间里的人们都挺直了身子，真的太有趣了。但是我觉得这就是做厨师的含义。除了创造力，所有的鱼都必须朝着同一个方向游泳。你必须尊重各式各样的个人特点，同时让团队朝着共同的目标努力。期待必须明确，并且你必须去教导他们。
So first of all, I think I understand better what this verb that we both like really means. I think in the French, what does it mean actually head, right? The chief, the leader, the chief. And no one teaches you to be a leader. It's one of the worst spots for a cook who's been promoted to sous chef because that is the first time you are really in charge of the crew and just about everything that has to happen in a restaurant. You've taught them all the practicalities of what goes in the recipe or what the dish should look like, etc. But what you don't often find a sous chef getting is a lot of education about how to bring a group together. It's often people's first experience with power, which is like a freaking atomic bomb and a lot of people mishandle it. When you first transitioned, I guess to some version of a chef with this additional and very different responsibility, did you like it?
首先，我想我更清楚地理解了我们俩所喜欢的动词的实际含义。我认为在法语中，它实际上是指领导，对吗？首领、领导者。没有人会教你如何成为一名领导者。对于一个晋升为副主厨的厨师来说，这是最糟糕的位置之一，因为这是你真正负责整个工作团队和餐厅中几乎所有事务的第一次。你已经教给他们关于食谱中所需食材和菜肴外观等方面的所有实际知识。但副主厨通常并没有接受到如何团结一个小组的大量教育。这往往是人们第一次接触到权力，就像一颗该死的原子弹，很多人管理不善。当你首次转变为一种与之前完全不同的厨师，承担着额外的责任时，你喜欢这个过程吗？
The problem with me is that I am a bossy person in general. I also have that sort of adherence to excellence that drives me crazy. And so I had already become accustomed to not making any friends. When I used to chef situations that I had no business, when I worked in catering kitchens, it's kind of a mayhem, sort of every man for himself. Sometimes there's no clear chef in a catering kitchen. And so you're just watching one guy making Bushd and oil the way they think it should be made. And someone else is roasting turkeys the way they think the turkey should be roasted. It's like parallel play with kids. And it's my nature. I can't really help it.
对我来说，问题在于我总是喜欢指挥别人。我还有一种执着追求卓越的倾向，让我自己都觉得疯狂。因此，我早已习惯了不与任何人交朋友。当我被安排在一些我没有参与资格的厨房工作时，情况就会变得有些混乱，每个人都只顾自己。在一些餐饮厨房里，有时候并没有明确的主厨。所以你只能看着一个人按照他们认为应该制作的方式煮沙龙牛排，另外一个人按照他们认为应该烘烤的方式烤火鸡。就像孩子们在一起平行游戏一样。这是我的天性，我真的控制不住。
I am just like, that turkey doesn't look good. And so I have struggled with my innate chefness long before I ever became a chef by realizing, huh, I'm alone crying in the van because I didn't make any friends today. And yes, it mattered to me that the turkeys were perfect. But how can I not feel so alone? How can I get the product the way it has to be for me by my standards without feeling left out? And absolutely like I've ruined relationships or that everyone's standing 10 feet away from me or no one's going to invite me out for a drink after work. And so I would say I learned really the hard way.
我就像是，那只火鸡看起来不好吃。所以在成为厨师之前，我一直与自己的厨师天赋斗争，意识到，嗯，我独自坐在车里哭泣，因为我今天没有交到任何朋友。是的，对我来说火鸡是否完美很重要。但是，我怎么才能不那么孤独呢？我怎么才能按照我的标准做出满意的产品，不感到被排除在外？我绝对感觉自己破坏了人际关系，每个人都与我保持10英尺的距离，或者没有人会邀请我下班后一起喝一杯。所以我可以说我是以困难的方式学到的。
And one of the things that I really cherished about owning my own restaurant was that I got to shepherd people through those brutal experiences that I had done on my own teaching people. Like if you just move your cutting board a little closer here, you don't have to lean over so far. Or if we could just raise this up, then you don't have to hunch over so hard. Can I ask then maybe there was a time earlier in your career where you'd go back in the van and cry because you didn't make any friends that day. But that is because the product came out excellent. Then if I'm hearing you write later and maybe especially at Prune, there was a flip so that it's now about not that the product suffered, obviously it didn't. But the emphasis was on the people and less about the product. Do I have that right?
我在经营自己的餐厅时，最珍惜的一件事就是我可以引导别人度过那些我自己曾经经历过的艰难时刻，教导他人。比如，如果你把切菜板移过来一点，就不用弯腰那么远了。或者，如果我们能够把这个东西抬高一点，你就不用那么低头了。或许在你事业的早期，有过那样的时刻，你会回到货车里哭泣，因为那天你没有交到任何朋友。但那是因为你的产品出色。然后，如果我没听错的话，后来在Prune餐厅，情况发生了变化，现在的重点不再是产品受损，显然没有受损。而更注重的是对人的关怀，而不是产品。我说得对吗？
I would say that it's maybe what you were talking about is you get good at eight things or something and that's what determines excellence. For me, I would add it into the braid of my work life so that not one thing you don't triage constantly like, well, the food's going to suck today, but man, is this team going to be strong or am I going to be well liked? It's a constant braiding end of new things which is actually very natural in a way. I used to look, cooking is very repetitive. You boil a lot of water every day. This is how I would entertain myself. I would work this station at brunch. I would work the front station and you're doing a lot at the front.
我认为，也许你所说的是你擅长八个或其他方面，并且这决定了卓越。对我来说，我会将它融入我的工作生活中，这样就不会有一件事情不断地被忽视，比如，食物可能不好吃，但团队会很强大，或者我会很受欢迎。这是一种不断交织新事物的自然状态。我曾经观察到，烹饪是非常重复的。每天都要煮很多水。这是我自娱自乐的方式。我会在早午餐时工作这个位置。我会在前台工作，你在前台做很多事情。
You're splitting and toasting about 540 English muffins in five hours. Especially if you're calling the tickets and you're assembling the plates and putting them in the window. But over time, once you have the hang of all those things, I would look around and I'm like, how am I going to get out of my game? I got this. What's next? I used to set these goals and meet them and they were, I will finish this insane brunch shift with not a single stain on my apron. Or I will finish this brunch shift and there will be no crumbs from the English muffins on the floor in my station. I consider teaching the line cook how to be a good line cook and the advanced line cook to become a sous chef. Part of the braid of we should be more money savvy in here too and I should have some friends at the end of the day and the food should be exquisite and I should know a little something about lighting in a dining room. For some reason, the people at the bar are not glowing the way I'd like them to.
你正忙着在五个小时内切开并烤制约540个英式松饼。特别是当你在叫号、整理盘子并将它们放在窗口时。但是随着时间的推移，一旦你掌握了所有这些技能，我会四处张望，想着接下来该怎么办？我已经掌握了这一切。接下来是什么？我过去常设定这些目标，并实现它们，比如我会在这个疯狂的早午餐班次结束时，围裙上没有一丝污渍。或者我会完成这个早午餐班次，我工作站上不会有任何英式松饼的碎屑。我认为教授炊事线上的厨师如何成为一名优秀的炊事员，高级炊事员如何晋升为副厨师。我们还应该更懂得理财，并且我应该在一天结束时结交一些朋友，食物应该精致，我也应该对餐厅的灯光有所了解。出于某种原因，吧台上的人们并没有我希望的那样灿烂耀眼。
That makes total sense. You're just adding. So you're a writer and you're chef and I think you once said that writing a book was like a bajillion times harder. Can you tell me like what is the same for you between writing and cooking and what is different? I would say that the only sameness between writing and cooking is my need to know what the f I'm doing and feel professional and legitimate doing it. One is so solitary and so almost unachievable. That's the writing one right? Yep and that's also because I come with such reverence for it and it means so much to me whereas cooking I'm like, ah, this comes pretty naturally and I know it's tasty it can be light for you. That's right. It's very like this is a freaking delicious roast chicken. Like let's agree. This is just tasty. Yeah, yum. Let's eat it and then we'll be gone.
这完全讲得通。你只是在添加。所以你既是一名作家又是一名厨师，我想你曾经说过写一本书比做饭难了许多倍。你能告诉我写作和烹饪中有什么相同之处，又有什么不同吗？我会说写作和烹饪之间唯一相同的地方就是我需要知道我在干什么，并且感觉自己是专业和有资格这样做。其中一种是如此孤独，几乎难以实现。这指的是写作对吧？对，那也是因为我对它充满敬畏，对我来说意义重大，而烹饪嘛，我觉得嗯，这来得很自然，我知道它好吃，可以让你畅快。没错。就像这只特别好吃的烤鸡一样。咱们同意这非常美味。是啊，好吃。吃完就行了。
You said cooking is a craft not an art. So for you writing is an art. I really wanted to know what you even mean by that that something can be a craft and not an art. No matter how beautiful the plate, no matter how exquisite the craftsmanship, no matter how attempted to detail of the color scheme or the textual contrast in one's mouth. I'm steadfast in the camp of you think that's art buddy? Why don't you lock yourself in a room and try writing a poem or painting a painting that actually like moves someone?
你说烹饪是一门手艺而非艺术。所以对你而言，写作才是艺术。我真的想知道你所指的东西可以是手艺而非艺术的意思。无论盘子有多漂亮，工艺有多精湛，无论在色彩方案或口感上都多么注重细节。我坚定地站在你认为这算是艺术的阵营里。为什么不锁自己在一个房间里，试试写一首能触动人心的诗或画一幅能让人心动的画呢？
You know, there are these two motivational tendencies that psychologists call like approach versus avoidance and some people would say like, I work so hard because I have all these approach goals. Like I want to do this. Other people would say, I work so hard because I'm avoiding failure. I don't know if any of that resonates with you. I used to joke all the time when people would say, I don't know how you do it. You're a good cook and you're a good writer and how do you be good at so many things like, oh, it's so easy. You just need parents who didn't love you. And so you just spend the rest of your life like working harder and harder and harder like please notice me. I'm good enough. All you have to do is sort of breathe and your parents love you. Like that is not that household in which we grew up and I would say we had some psychological dynamics of an even darker stripe, particularly with our father. And you're raising your two kids totally differently, right? Of course. I'm sure I'm screwing them up in my own special way.
你知道的，心理学家称之为“趋向”与“回避”的动机倾向。有些人会说，我努力工作是因为我有一些追求的目标，我想要去做这些事情。而其他人会说，我努力工作是因为我想要避免失败。我不知道这些是否能与你共鸣。以前每当有人说，我不知道你是如何做到的，你是个好厨师，也是个好作家，你怎么能在这么多方面都做得这么好呢，我总会开玩笑说，噢，这很简单，你只需要有一对不爱你的父母，这样你的余生就会不断地辛苦努力，朝着让他们注意到我，我足够好的方向去努力。不过我们成长的家庭并不是这样的，我敢说我们有着更加黑暗的心理动力，尤其是与我们的父亲有关。而你现在在教育你的两个孩子的方式完全不同，对吧？ 当然了，我相信我也以我自己特别的方式搞砸了他们。
I was going to say, are they going to be like really happy slackers? Totally. Yeah. I don't know who said it, but you want to give your children just enough trauma, a little trauma, a tincture. So they've got some texture. Do you think that being somebody who's so driven to excellence and who cares so much about the details? So do you think that's causally related to insecurity or are those really just like different parts of you? The confidence is that I do have ironically come from having all the same fears and insecurities and terrors and senses of inadequacies as anyone, if not even more so, but having faced them. And so I don't know if you're allowed to say this without sounding like an ****, but I find myself brave to have faced the things that terrify me or that I think I'm going to fail at, etc. You hold your breath and you squint and you're just sort of like, I'm going in. It's like jumping into an ice cold, the lake off of a very tall rock and you're not sure what's at the bottom. And some people just sort of back down and like, I think I'm not going to take that risk. And having, I think jumped into enough of those cold lakes. I developed some confidence, but it doesn't mean I don't struggle with tremendous insecurity. I have to ask a lot of questions and make sure I have a lot of answers before I finish an endeavor. That's why it takes me so long to write, I think. It's very hard for me. I can probably only manage a book every five years because I'm so afraid I'm going to get it wrong. Can you share an example of a past or present insecurity or fear or like, yep, that was an icy wake I jumped into not knowing the bottom of.
我本来想说，他们会不会成为非常快乐的懒散者？完全是。是的。我不知道是谁说的，但你想给你的孩子留下足够的创伤，一点点创伤，一个味道。这样他们才有些厚度。你认为作为一个非常追求卓越并且对细节非常在意的人，这与不安全感有因果关系吗？还是它们真的只是你不同的一面？我有自信正好是因为我和任何人一样拥有同样的恐惧、不安全感、惊恐和自卑感，甚至可能更多，但我面对了它们。所以我不知道这样说是否会听起来像个混蛋，但是我觉得自己勇敢，因为我面对了那些吓唬我或者我觉得我会失败的事情等等。你屏住呼吸，眯起眼睛，然后勇往直前。就像从很高的岩石上跳进冰冷的湖水，你不确定底下是什么。有些人会退缩，说我想我不会冒这个险。而我曾经跳进了足够多的冷湖水中。我就对自己有些自信了，但这并不意味着我没有严重的不安全感。在完成一项事业之前，我必须提出很多问题并确保自己有很多答案。这就是为什么我写作需要很久的原因，我想。这对我来说非常困难。我可能每五年才能完成一本书，因为我太害怕写错了。你能分享一个过去或现在的不安全感或恐惧的例子吗？就像是我曾经跳进过的冰冷湖水，不知道底下是什么。
Sure. First thing that comes to mind is about writing. Do you write? I only wrote one book and I'll never write another one because it nearly killed me. I think people mistake writing as having a way with words, but actually writing is thinking and writing on the page, it reveals the organization of your mind and your heart, frankly. And so, to put that in draft form in front of someone who's going to edit and receive that material, for me, is like being caught absolutely naked and not good naked, not like, oh, I've had a shower and I trimmed. It's ugly naked. I've been puking in the bathroom on a hangover naked. When I read the New York Times essay that you wrote during the pandemic about the closure of Prune, I did want to ask, do you know what you're doing next? Prune could reopen, right? For now, it's officially legal to have indoor dining and I don't know if you know our block. I don't. It's a very short block and we have some empty lots that breed rats and then we're on top of a subway station that's hollow where rats like to live. So to open outdoors, to me, would be like repulsive. You could start the bubonic plague to add on to the coronavirus. I can just imagine like you get your tables all set up and your little potted ferns going and then there's a rainstorm and the cockroaches are going to come up out of the sewer drain. Not only would that be sort of bad for business, but who would I be? Like, no, we're going to sit down here. Have brunch. Make beautiful plates. Expenedic. While everyone here is going to hell in a hand basket.
当然可以。我首先想到的是写作。你写作吗？我只写过一本书，而且我再也不会写了，因为它几乎让我丧命。我认为人们误解了写作，他们认为写作就是善于辞藻，但实际上，写作是思考和在纸上写下来，它揭示了你的思维和心灵的组织，坦率地说。所以，把那个初稿放在一个要编辑和接收那篇材料的人面前对我来说就像是被彻底地赤裸裸地捉住了，而且不是好的赤裸裸，不是那种经过淋浴和修整的赤裸裸。那是丑陋的赤裸裸，就像我在酒后呕吐的时候的模样。当我读到你在大流行期间关于Prune关闭的纽约时报文章时，我想问一下，你知道接下来要做什么吗？Prune可以重新开业，对吗？现在，室内用餐官方是合法的，我不知道你是否了解我们的街区。我不清楚。这是一段非常短的街区，我们有一些孳生老鼠的空地，然后我们座落在一个地铁站的上面，里面是空心的，老鼠喜欢住在那里。所以对我来说，在室外开放就像是令人恶心的。你可以让黑死病与冠状病毒一起传播。我能想象出你设好桌子，摆放小盆栽，然后突然下起暴雨，蟑螂会从下水道爬出来。这不仅对生意来说不太好，而且我会是谁呢？坐在这里，享用早午餐。做出美味的菜肴。豪华的。而每个人都在堕入地狱的时候。
You know, I see a lot of signs on storefronts in my town, which is Philadelphia, that say kind of more or less like I'm retiring. You've titled your book Bloodbuns and Butter, the inadvertent education of a reluctant chef. You've said that you didn't growing up think that cooking was going to be your passion at a pretty early age or whatever. You wanted to be a writer. So I wondered whether you would also take the opportunity to exit off of the restaurant highway.
你知道吗，我在我所居住的费城这座城市中，经常看到很多店面上贴着一些标志，大致意思是“我要退休了”。你为你的书取名为《大忙炸面包和奶油：一个勉强当厨师的无意教育》。你说你在成长时并没有想过烹饪会成为你的激情，在很小的时候就想成为一名作家。所以我想知道你是否也会趁机退出餐厅之路。
It's a great opportunity and of course I'm contemplating it constantly. And I happen to like change. Change doesn't terrify me. So I am embracing the time and the opportunity to really think and recalibrate and understand who I am and who I'm not. But I must admit that I'm still a little bit in shock. The shock waves of such an intense and seismic shift. I need them to settle a bit before I'm able to sort of think again about what will come.
这是一个很好的机会，当然我一直在仔细考虑。而且碰巧我喜欢改变。改变并不让我恐惧。所以我正在接受这段时间和机会，真正思考和重新调整并理解我是谁和我不是谁。但我必须承认，我还有点震惊。这种强烈而剧烈的变化所带来的冲击仍让我有些摇晃不定。我需要稍微平静下来，然后再来思考接下来会发生什么。
And in addition, I don't want to be playing this one stringed violin just because I played a violin for 20 years. It's not to say that I can't again make beautiful music. I think I can get that going again at some future time. But I don't want to be playing my old one stringed violin.
而且，另外我也不想仅仅因为我弹了20年的小提琴就一直弹下去。这并不是说我不能再次演奏出美妙的音乐。我相信在未来的某个时候我可以再次恢复那种境界。但是我不想只固守于我的旧一根琴弦。
This episode of No Stupid Questions was produced by Rebecca Lee Douglas and Catherine Mancure with help from our production associate, Lyric Boudich. And now here's a fact check of today's conversation.
本期《无愚问题》节目由Rebecca Lee Douglas和Catherine Mancure制作，我们的制作助理Lyric Boudich也给予了帮助。现在，让我们对今天的对话进行事实核查。
In the first half of the episode, Angela says the phrase join or die comes from Benjamin Franklin. And Mike says yes, the yellow flag with the snake. In 1754, Franklin published a drawing of a snake broken into pieces above the caption join or die in the Pennsylvania Gazette. He might have been inspired by a similar image published in France in 1685. The image isn't a flag though, and it isn't yellow. Mike is probably thinking of the gadsden flag, which depicts a rattlesnake on a yellow field above the slogan, don't tread on me.
在该集的上半部分，安吉拉说“参与或死亡”的口号出自本杰明·富兰克林之口。迈克说对，就是那面带蛇的黄旗。1754年，富兰克林在《宾夕法尼亚报》上刊登了一幅一条被分成碎片的蛇的图画，上面写着“参与或死亡”。他可能受到1685年法国发表的一种类似形象的启发。这个形象并不是一面旗帜，也不是黄色的。迈克可能想的是加斯登旗帜，上面有一只响尾蛇，悬挂在黄色的旗帜上，上面写着“踩我一脚试试看”。
Later, Mike and Angela discuss slow checkout lines in grocery stores for people who want more social interaction. Angela guesses that those lines are at grocery stores in Denmark. In fact, they're thinking of the slow lines at a supermarket chain in the Netherlands called Jumbo. Jumbo opened the first so-called chat checkout in 2019 as part of a Dutch government initiative to combat loneliness. The company plans to open 200 of these checkout lines in the Netherlands and Belgium. Some Jumbo stores are also implementing cozy chat corners for people to sit and talk.
后来，迈克和安吉拉讨论了超市里那些想要更多社交互动的人会选择排队慢的结账通道。安吉拉猜测这些线在丹麦的超市中存在。实际上，他们指的是荷兰的一家连锁超市——Jumbo的慢速结账通道。Jumbo在2019年开设了第一家所谓的聊天结账通道，作为荷兰政府打击孤独的倡议的一部分。该公司计划在荷兰和比利时开设200个这样的结账通道。一些Jumbo商店还实施了舒适的聊天角落供人们坐下聊天。
Then Mike says that people in public are often wearing their airbuds. He was likely combining the terms earbuds, which refer to a type of headphones that fit in the user's ear canal, and AirPods, a brand of earbud made by Apple. AirBud is a 1997 comedy about a golden retriever who learns to play basketball.
迈克说公众场合的人经常戴着他们的AirBuds耳机。他很可能把耳塞耳机（earbuds）和苹果品牌的AirPods耳塞混合在了一起。《AirBud》是一部于1997年上映的喜剧电影，主角是一只学会打篮球的金毛猎犬。
In the second half of the show, Angela shares that she wrote only one book, grit, and won't write another because the first nearly killed her. She is now in the middle of writing her second book.
在节目的下半部分，安吉拉分享她只写了一本书《毅力》，并且不打算再写第二本，因为第一本书几乎把她累垮了。然而，她现在正在忙于写她的第二本书。
Finally, Angela asks Gabrielle Hamilton whether she intends to reopen her restaurant Prune, which was forced to close during the pandemic. At the time, Hamilton says she wasn't sure. However, months after the episode originally aired, Hamilton announced that she was leaving her position as a columnist for the New York Times magazine and returning to work at Prune. There's currently no reopening date listed publicly for the restaurant, but locals have seen the lights on and renovations happening inside and out.
最后，Angela问Gabrielle Hamilton是否打算重新开放在疫情期间被迫关闭的Prune餐厅。当时，Hamilton表示自己不确定。然而，在该集节目播出的几个月后，Hamilton宣布她将离开《纽约时报》杂志的撰稿人职位，返回Prune工作。目前还没有公开列出餐厅的重新开放日期，但当地居民看到灯火通明，内外进行了装修工作。
That's it for the fact check. Coming up next week on No Stupid Questions, how does word choice affect behavior? Just go to a magic show, ladies and gentlemen. That's next week on No Stupid Questions. No Stupid Questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which also includes Freakonomics Radio, People I Mostly Admire, and the Economics of Everyday Things. All our shows are produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. This episode was mixed by Eleanor Osborn and James Foster. We had research help from Daniel Moritz-Rabson. Our theme song was composed by Louise Scarra. You can follow us on Twitter at NSQ underscore show and on Facebook at NSQ show. If you have a question for a future episode, please email it to NSQ at Freakonomics.com. To learn more or to read episode transcripts, visit Freakonomics.com slash NSQ. Thanks for listening.
这就是事实核查的全部内容。下周，在《无愚蠢问题》节目中，我们将探讨词语选择如何影响行为。女士们先生们，就去看一场魔术表演吧。这就是下周《无愚蠢问题》的内容。《无愚蠢问题》是Freakonomics Radio Network的一部分，该网络还包括Freakonomics Radio、我最崇拜的人和日常事物的经济学。所有我们的节目都由Stitcher和Renbud Radio制作。本集由Eleanor Osborn和James Foster混音，Daniel Moritz-Rabson提供了研究帮助。我们的主题曲由Louise Scarra创作。您可以在Twitter上关注我们的账号NSQ underscore show，或者在Facebook上关注NSQ show。如果您有未来节目的问题，请发送电子邮件至NSQ@Freakonomics.com。欲了解更多信息或阅读节目文稿，请访问Freakonomics.com/NSQ。感谢您的收听。
I need to ask about the friend who. I'm sorry, did somebody say I didn't get that? No, that was my watch. I'm so sorry. I took it off. The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything. Stitcher.
我需要问关于那个朋友的问题。对不起，有人说我没听懂？不，那是我的手表。非常抱歉，我把它摘掉了。弗里克诺米克斯广播网络，揭示一切的隐藏面。Stitcher。