The Secrets Behind Dealership Franchise Laws | Len Bellavia
发布时间 2023-11-28 10:00:14 来源
What's going on today is that those same consumers who felt comfort in buying from let's say Tesla, because they knew that the price was fixed, everybody across the country was going to pay the same price. How do they feel now? Tesla has reduced the price by 25% of the same car that this customer bought, let's say a year ago.
今天发生的情况是，那些之前购买特斯拉等品牌产品时感到舒适的消费者，因为他们知道价格是固定的，全国范围内每个人都要支付相同的价格。现在他们会有什么感受呢？特斯拉将这位顾客一年前购买的同款车降价了25%。
What's up everyone? This is Cardioshab Guy. You're listening to the Cardioshab Guy podcast, which is my effort to give you access to the most unbiased and transparent insights into the car market. Let's get into today's episode.
大家好，我是Cardioshab Guy。你正在收听的是Cardioshab Guy的播客节目，我努力为你提供对汽车市场最公正、最透明的见解。让我们开始今天的节目吧。
Leonard Belavius, founding partner at law firm Belavia and Blat, also known as dealerlaw.com. He is a nationally recognized authority in the fields of automotive and dealership law. In this conversation we discussed the case for and against dealership markups, automotive franchise laws, why they exist and if they'll go away, the most consumer-friendly automotive brands, the top concerns on the minds of dealers, will Tesla ever franchise? Yes, you heard that correctly and much more.
莱纳德·贝拉维乌斯是贝拉维亚斯和布拉特律师事务所的创始合伙人，同时也是dealerlaw.com网站的知名人士。他在汽车和经销商法领域享有国家级的声望。在这次对话中，我们讨论了经销商加价的利与弊，汽车特许经营法律以及其存在的原因和可能性，最受消费者欢迎的汽车品牌，经销商们最关心的问题，特斯拉是否会采取特许经营模式等等。
But before we dive into the show, this episode is brought to you by CDK Global. CDK Global has been empowering nearly 15,000 dealers with the tools and technology they need to build deeper relationships with customers. Their team is keenly aware of the state of dealership technology and while many vendors promise seamless experiences between your CRM, DMS, digital retail and fixed ops, most of these bolt-on solutions tend to break workflows and cause more harm than good. That is why CDK has launched a new dealership experience platform. This new integrated software consists of everything you need to operate a dealership officially, while delivering an unparalleled experience to your customers. Basically, everything working together, not separate, one system to run your dealership as opposed to 10. CDK developed it with an outside-in approach listening to dealers every step of the way. You can learn more about CDK's dealership experience platform by visiting CDKGlobal.com. DXP or clicking the link in the show notes below.
在我们深入了解本期节目之前，本期节目由CDK Global为您带来。CDK Global通过提供工具和技术来帮助近15,000家经销商与客户建立更深入的关系。他们的团队非常了解经销商技术的现状，尽管许多供应商承诺在您的CRM、DMS、数字零售和固定运营之间提供无缝体验，但大多数这些附加解决方案往往破坏工作流程，带来更多的伤害而不是好处。这就是为什么CDK推出了新的经销商体验平台。这个新的集成软件包括您经营经销商所需的一切，同时为您的客户提供前所未有的体验。基本上，一切都在协同工作，而不是分离，有一个系统来经营您的经销商，而不是10个。CDK通过以外部为导向的方式进行开发，始终倾听经销商的意见。您可以通过访问CDKGlobal.com或点击下方节目备注中的链接了解更多关于CDK的经销商体验平台的信息。
This episode is also brought to you by Cars Commerce. The platform is simplified everything about buying and selling cars. I talk a lot on this podcast about how complicated and disconnected our industry can be with so many different moving parts. So as a Cars.com dealer-inspired customer of many years, I was excited to hear Alex Vetter announce his team's vision to simplify dealership technology as Cars Commerce. If you missed it, they've been connecting the most valuable audience from their Cars.com marketplace with innovative technology and media solutions such as dealer-inspired, accurate trade, and their newly formed Cars Commerce media network. So now this platform means you can work with one partner to advertise to consumers you know are in the market, guide them through a seamless customer experience from online to in-store, and quickly build a differentiated reputation in your market. Simple. That's what we need to improve the customer experience and future-proof local retailers. Go to Cars.comers.ink or visit the link in the show notes below to see how you can simplify your business and grow profitability.
本集节目也由Cars Commerce赞助。该平台简化了汽车买卖的一切。我在这个播客中经常谈到我们行业的复杂性和分散性，有许多不同的运作环节。因此，作为Cars.com多年的合作商家和客户，我很高兴听到Alex Vetter宣布他的团队通过Cars Commerce来简化经销商技术的愿景。如果你错过了，他们一直通过Cars.com市场连接最有价值的受众，并提供创新的技术和媒体解决方案，例如受经销商启发的准确交易以及他们新成立的Cars Commerce媒体网络。因此，现在这个平台意味着你可以和一个合作伙伴合作，在市场上向你知道正在购车的消费者进行广告宣传，引导他们从线上到线下的无缝客户体验，并快速在你的市场中建立出与众不同的声誉。简单明了。这就是我们需要改进客户体验和使本地零售商能够适应未来的未来。请访问Cars.comers.ink或点击下方的链接查看如何简化你的业务并提高盈利能力。
In terms of trying to build a practice, I did two things. I would actually literally walk into dealerships and speak to the ask for the owner. Back then it was a little easier. These were really mom and pop dealerships. It was a little easier for me to get in front of the dealer because at least my last name was known in the Metro, New York area. My family had dealerships, so I use that to my advantage. Smart. Well, I mean I didn't have as much else you could do, especially as a young lawyer. I would get in front of the dealer and I would try and encourage them to give me whatever type of work, you know leases, summa complaints, any type of litigation. And little by little, I got a case here and a pickup a case there, but to really pay the rent, what I needed to do was back then what we called per diems. And that means you go to big law firms and say, listen, can I cover deposition or court conference, pay me $100 or $50? And I would do two or three or four of those a day. And by the end of the month, I had enough money to pay the rent. I didn't really have, I didn't have my own house at the time, so my expenses were pretty low. So I was sustaining myself just by doing a lot of running around like crazy.
在努力建立业务方面，我做了两件事。我真的会走进汽车经销商门店，找到老板进行交谈。那时候要容易一些。这些都是真正的小店。因为我的姓氏在纽约大区还算有些知名度，所以相对容易接触到经销商。我的家族也有汽车经销商，所以我利用了这一点，非常聪明。嗯，我的意思是，特别是作为一名年轻律师，我可做的就这么多了。我会接触到经销商，然后努力鼓励他们给我各种工作，比如租赁、诉讼和各种纠纷。渐渐地，我会接到一两个案件，但要真正能支付房租，我需要做的是当时我们称之为“每日津贴”的工作。也就是去大型律师事务所说，听着，我能帮你出席庭审或法庭会议，给我100美元或50美元好吗？我一天会做两三四个这样的工作。到月底时，我有足够的钱支付房租。那个时候我没有自己的房子，所以我的开支非常低。所以，我通过疯狂奔波维持着自己的生活。
And then little by little, I would get more dealership work. Again, keep in mind there weren't many lawyers out there that did dealership work. There was one on Long Island, a great lawyer named Len Weber, another one in New Jersey, Marty Margolis, these were all very big names back then. So I was the young upstart at the time and even they would give me some work, overflow work.
然后渐渐地，我会得到更多的代理商工作。再次提醒大家，那时候并不多有律师从事代理商工作。长岛有一个名叫Len Weber的律师，他非常出色；新泽西还有另一个名叫Marty Margolis的律师，他们都是当时非常有名的人物。所以当时的我是一个年轻的新贵，即使他们也会给我一些工作，溢出的活。
So over the course of many years, I got to get a little more name recognition and then I would learn about marketing, direct mail, and I would send newsletters back, that newsletters was the way you market it. I didn't have digital media. So you just bought a lot of stamps and you sent out newsletters, updates and bulletins and little by little you'd get phone calls. And then I started getting bigger cases.
经过多年的时间，我逐渐开始受到一些名声的认可，然后我开始学习市场营销、直邮，并通过发送简报来进行营销，因为在当时并没有数字媒体。所以我购买了很多邮票，然后发送简报、更新和公告，渐渐地我开始接到电话。然后我开始处理更大的案件。
The only advantage I had really was that I knew how to run a dealership. I knew the issues I could relate when you can talk to a client. You're differentiating yourself from the lawyers that they were using at the time, so that worked to my advantage because as a lot of the way in a carjacket, you learn some of the vernacular in the dealership. That gives a client a little more comfort that you know you understand the issues.
我唯一真正的优势就是我知道如何管理一家经销商。我知道可以与客户交谈时会遇到哪些问题。你要使自己与当时他们所用的律师区分开来，所以这对我有利，因为作为一个汽车销售员，你会了解一些与经销商有关的术语。这能让客户更加放心，知道你理解他们所面临的问题。
I think one of the challenges I always had was when we needed counsel for anything, not necessarily litigation, but just general needing counsel for growth, for this, for that, finding like you said someone that understands the nuances of the business is a lot more difficult than you think. And we've leaned on the state agencies a lot because they have experts in many different areas of the business, but it's definitely, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to specialize in that niche. I can see why that's kind of brought so much value.
我认为我一直面临的挑战之一是在我们需要咨询时，不仅仅是诉讼方面，而是对于发展、对于这个，对于那个，需要咨询时，找到像你说的那样真正理解业务细微差别的人比你想象的要困难得多。我们非常依赖州政府机构，因为他们在业务的许多不同领域拥有专家，但这明显地，我是说，专门在这个领域做专长很有意义。我能理解为什么这带来了如此大的价值。
I did want to ask you a question. You mentioned there was no customer service index for dealerships in the 80s, 90s, whatever, but what was the perception of the dealership 30, 40 years ago? Was it the same as it is today? Was it worse, better? How do you think about that? And I want to preface that. I'm coming from the point of view of the Internet has democratized a lot of things. It's also made things a lot more transparent. And so things have changed a lot. Consumers have a lot more information. Dealers have a lot more information. So anyways, with all that said, what was the perception of the car dealership back then?
我确实想问你一个问题。你提到80年代、90年代或者其他年代没有汽车经销商的客户服务指数，但在30年、40年前，对汽车经销商的看法是什么样的呢？与今天相比，是一样的吗？是更糟糕还是更好？你如何看待这个问题？我想先说明一下，我从互联网的角度来看待这个问题。互联网使很多事情变得民主化，也使事情更加透明。所以很多事情已经发生了很大的变化。消费者有了更多的信息，经销商也有了更多的信息。总之，在这样的背景下，以前对汽车经销商的看法是怎样的？
Well, in the early 80s, it was still the plaid jacket, the white paddle leather shoes. Although that wasn't reality. That was the stick that we were confronted with. I mean, the fact is the owners of these dealerships were for the most part male back then. That's changed. But sophisticated business people, they may not be academics necessarily. They weren't all college graduates, but they were very savvy people. I often joked, there should be a course in law school where you have to sit in a retail establishment, whether it's a car dealer, furniture dealer, both dealers, and really learn what goes on in the world.
嗯，在80年代初期，流行的还是格子夹克和白色拍皮鞋。虽然这并不是现实，但这就是我们所面对的观念。我的意思是，事实上那时这些经销商的老板大多是男性。现在已经有所改变了。但那些精明的商界人士，并不一定是学者，他们不一定都是大学毕业生，但却非常精明。我经常开玩笑说，应该在法学院开设一门课程，让学生们在零售场所，无论是汽车销售店还是家具销售店，真正了解世界上发生的事情。
So that was an invaluable experience just to be dealing with public learning to speak on your feet. That used to joke to me. He said, well, I'm a dealer, you're a lawyer. The only difference between you and me is you have a certificate on the wall because we're selling a product. I'm selling a point of view. So it was kind of his way of saying, don't get too uppity with your blood degree. We all have the same goal and that's to accomplish whatever we set out for that day.
这是一次宝贵的经历，因为我需要即席应对公共场合学会讲话。他曾经和我开玩笑说，他说：“我是个推销员，你是个律师。你和我唯一的不同就是你有一张挂在墙上的证书，因为我们都在销售一种产品。我在销售一种观点。”这可以理解为他在告诉我，不要因为你拥有学位就自以为是。我们都有同样的目标，那就是完成我们当天设定的任务。
So in court, though, the stigma still existed from the 60s and 70s. I would say in the 80s, things started to change because Ward dealer has wanted to acquire additional dealerships. And one of the criteria was to start looking at the customer satisfaction of the existing dealerships. CSI kind of came into existence in the 80s, but it didn't make representing dealers any easier because there were these preconceived notions that dealers were disreputable, high pressure, and you never really got a fair shake when you were at a dealer. So there was a lot to overcome. I mean, it wasn't truthful. And quite honestly, there are suppositions like that that exist today that aren't truthful, but dealers have to confront them.
在法庭上，60年代和70年代的耻辱仍然存在。我会说在80年代，情况开始改变，因为沃德经销商想要收购更多的经销店。其中一个标准是开始关注现有经销店的顾客满意度。顾客满意度（CSI）在80年代开始存在，但它并没有让代表经销商变得更容易，因为人们对经销商存在先入为主的观念，认为他们不诚信、高压，并且你在经销店时永远得不到公平对待。因此，有很多要克服的困难。我的意思并不真实。而且说实话，现在还存在着这样的假设，但经销商必须面对它们。
Well, do you think it wasn't truthful or do you think that it was truthful just to a certain extent? Like, I always talk about dealers all across the spectrum and that there's many dealers that do things the right way. And there's some that obviously don't just like any industry. So, you know, do you think that that's sort of like the genesis for that or why else would there be that stigma?
你认为这不真实，还是只有在某种程度上才算真实？比如，我总是谈论整个行业的经销商，有很多经销商都是按规矩办事的，但也有一些明显不是，就像任何行业一样。那么，你认为这种歧视的起源是什么，或者还有其他原因吗？
Yeah, I had clients that fit into all of those scenarios. Some are very, I consider to be very disreputable. And I didn't like the way they treated castorio clients like that today.
So I certainly don't want to paint the dealer body with the same brush and say, you all get a bad rap or all honorable. 100%.
Yeah. I mean, look, it's like any other, it's like lawyers, doctors, accountants, you know, they're good and bad. They're those that put the client customer first and those that put their profit motive first. So, you know, you know, after representing a client for a period of time, you know, what you're dealing with.
是的，我有适合所有这些情况的客户。其中一些我认为非常不可信。我也不喜欢他们今天对待像卡斯特利奥这样的客户的方式。
因此，我当然不想把所有经销商都一棍子打死，说你们都享有不良声誉或者都是光荣的。完全不是这样。
是的，我的意思是，就像其他行业的律师、医生、会计师一样，有好有坏。有些人把客户放在首位，有些人将自己的利益动机放在首位。所以，你知道，代表一个客户一段时间后，你就知道你正在处理什么。
Yeah, I hear lawyers, you know, all the time saying, well, you dealers are unfairly maligned. That's true. I mean, there are dealers that are unfairly maligned, but that doesn't mean there aren't others that deserve the reputation they get. And that's a negative blemish on the good dealers that are really trying to get past that negative stigma. So it's a challenge. And I don't like to be involved in dealers who really push the envelope because they're just making it more difficult on behalf of the dealers that do try and follow up.
是的，我听到律师们经常说，你们这些经销商受到了不公平的诋毁。这是真的。我的意思是，确实有些经销商受到了不公平的诋毁，但这并不意味着没有其他值得受到他们声誉的经销商。这对那些真正想要摆脱这种消极刻板印象的好经销商来说是个负面污点。所以这是一个挑战。我不喜欢涉及那些故意挑战底线的经销商，因为他们只会给那些真正努力跟进的经销商增加困难。
The law and good customer satisfaction goals and so on. So it's a tough grind and it's the same in any profession. So it's not unique to automotive retail. But the more ethical business owners, I think ultimately kind of avoid the skirmishes and have less legal costs. They're practiced, you know, preventative business practices where they can avoid you never fully avoid.
法律和良好的客户满意度目标等等。所以这是一个艰苦的竞争，任何行业都是如此。所以汽车零售并不是唯一如此。但是，我认为更有道德的企业主通常会避开冲突，并且在法律成本上较少支出。他们习惯于采取预防性的经营做法，以便尽量避免，尽管永远无法完全避免。
You know, I don't say that if you're a successful business person in retail, I mean, necessarily you're going to be confronted with some reclaims business claims kind of like the doctor, right? Show me a doctor that's never lost a patient and I'll show you a doctor that doesn't get the hard cases. So same thing with automotive. If you're in a high volume business and you're trying to make your margins and you want to hire the best people, you know, you got to go through a lot to get to that point and you know, you can't be faith of heart. And so sometimes, you know, you get hit the crossfire because not everybody agrees with the methods that you need to employ to become the best of the best. You got to ruffle people's feathers, whether it's a customer, manufacturer, an employee just comes with the territory.
你知道，我并不是说如果你是一个在零售业中成功的商人，你一定会遇到一些有关索赔的业务问题，就像医生一样。告诉我一个从未失去过病人的医生，我会告诉你他不会面对那些复杂的病例。汽车业也是一样的。如果你经营高销量的生意，追求利润并想雇佣最优秀的员工，你必须经历很多困难才能达到目标，而你不能软弱。所以有时候，你会成为交火的受害者，因为并不是每个人都同意你成为最优秀的方式。你必须激起人们的不满，不管是顾客、生产厂商还是员工，这都是你担当这个领域所必须面对的。
I put out a teaser on social media for this podcast and it blew up. I think we had over 200 comments and questions, you know, lots of people are very interested. You know, one of the common themes I get asked about a lot is just franchise laws, the history of franchise laws, you know, why they came to be, can you give us, before we dive into it? Before we dive into this discussion, can you give us the background of franchise laws? Like when did they start? Why did they start? How do they still exist? Can you give us that whole story?
我在社交媒体上发布了一个关于这个播客的预告，结果反响很大。我想我们收到了超过200个评论和问题，可以说有很多人非常感兴趣。你知道的，有一个常见的主题，就是我被问到了很多次就是关于特许经营法的问题，特许经营法的历史，为什么会出现，你能不能在我们深入讨论之前给我们一些背景知识？在我们深入探讨这个问题之前，你能给我们介绍一下特许经营法的背景吗？它们是什么时候开始的？为什么开始的？它们是如何存在的？能给我们讲一讲整个故事吗？
Yeah, franchise laws were designed, you know, people say they're to protect dealers. Well, there's so truth to that. However, they're really there to provide a mechanism or methodology to address grievances between dealers and manufacturers. So when you hear a certain constituency say, well, dealers have all these protectionist type statutes, they're really not there to protect dealers. There are some things that are designed to protect dealers against oppressive conduct by the manufacturer because of the uneven bargaining power. But, you know, there were debates, I'm sure some of the comments you just mentioned about, you know, teeing up this discussion and some of the feedback you got as dealers are no good and why do they get all these protections, no other industry gets protections.
是的，特许经营法旨在，你知道的，人们说它的目的是保护经销商。嗯，这有一定的道理。然而，它们实际上是为经销商和制造商之间的纠纷提供一种机制或方法。因此，当你听到某个特定的选区说，经销商拥有所有这些保护主义类型的法规时，它们实际上并不是为了保护经销商。有一些规定是为了保护经销商免受制造商不公平行为的侵害，因为谈判力量不对等。但是，你知道的，关于这个问题进行了一些辩论，我确定你刚才提到的一些评论和反馈是关于经销商不好，为什么他们会得到所有这些保护，而其他行业却没有得到保护的。
Well, here's what's underlies at all and this goes back to the 50s, really, 40s, 50s. There was a federal law that was promulgated in 1956, called the Federal Automobile Dealers Day in Courthack, which was the first federal law. That was designed to try and create a level playing field between auto manufacturers and dealers. So what it really stemmed from was the recognition that in order for, it's really a twofold recognition. One is that dealers in order to open up a dealership need to spend an inordinate sum of money, both for the bricks and mortar, the working capital requirements, inventory requirements. So let's just say, as a general statement, it costs millions of dollars, even back then, to open up a dealership. And that's not untrue of other businesses, but here's the distinction.
好的，这就是一切的基础，这可以追溯到50年代，实际上是40年代和50年代。在1956年通过了一项联邦法律，称为《联邦汽车经销商法案》，这是第一部联邦法律。它的目的是试图在汽车制造商和经销商之间创造一个公平竞争的平台。所以它的根源实际上是出于这样一个认识，也可以说是双重的认识。首先，作为经销商，要想开办经销店，就需要投入大量的资金，包括房地产、运营资本需求和库存需求。可以简单地说，即使在当时，开办一家经销店也需要花费数百万美元。这对其他企业来说也并非不可能，但是这里有一个区别。
And this really brings the summer into the mix, notwithstanding the fact that those that are anti-dealer will deny this, but the reality is that these franchise laws are designed to provide relief to a dealer, but the incidental beneficiary of these franchise laws are consumers.
这实际上让夏季的因素加入了考量，尽管那些反对经销商的人会否认这一点，但事实是这些特许经营法旨在给予经销商一些帮助，但作为附带的受益者，消费者也从中获益。
Now, anti-dealer people will gristle at that notion. However, the fact is that unlike both dealers or automobile dealers or tractor dealers, nobody needs a boat or a snowmobile or a tractor, maybe a tractor to an extent in certain parts of the country, but everyone needs a motor vehicle.
现在，反对经销商的人可能对这种观点不以为然。然而，事实是，与汽车经销商或拖拉机经销商不同，没有人需要一艘船或雪地摩托或拖拉机，或许在某些国家的特定地区，有人需要一辆拖拉机，但每个人都需要一辆机动车。
Everyone needs to have the ability to get that motor vehicle repaired in a timely manner, whether it's under warranty or after warranty expires.
每个人都需要及时修好那辆机动车的能力，无论是在保修期还是保修期过后。
So the rationale behind these franchise statutes is to guard against oppressive conduct by a manufacturer for a small business owner that puts up millions of dollars to be a franchisee. But the reason that these provisions have been passed is because consumers need a integrity in the franchise system that they can rely on, because if a manufacturer collects all this money, someone builds a building, and then they try and terminate that dealer for reasons other than good cause, not only is that dealer out a lot of money and could destroy the dealer and his employees, but the consumer who relied on that dealer to purchase vehicles and get vehicle service there are also out.
因此，这些特许经营法规的理念是为了保护小商业主，他们为成为特许经营商投入了数百万美元，以防止制造商的压迫行为。然而，通过这些法规的原因是因为消费者需要一个可信赖的特许经营体系的完整性，因为如果制造商收集了所有这些钱，有人建造了一座建筑物，然后他们试图以其他原因终止那个经销商，而不是充分的正当理由，那么不仅是那个经销商损失了大量资金，可能会摧毁经销商及其员工，而且依赖该经销商购买车辆和获得车辆服务的消费者也会受到损失。
It may not matter as much in a metro area, but in the Midwest or the heartland of this country, if you're a local Ford dealer was closed for a bad reason, that customer might have to travel 200 miles to the next Ford dealer to get warranty work.
在大都市地区可能不太重要，但在美国中西部或全国中心地带，如果你所在的本地福特经销商因为不良原因关闭了，顾客可能不得不前往200英里外的下一个福特经销商进行保修工作。
So yes, it's designed to provide a mechanism that dealers can feel like their investments are protected, but it's also there to make sure that consumers have a consistent network, a tapestry of dealers that they can rely on that they don't have to worry about being closed down at the will of a manufacturer for other than good cause.
是的，它的设计目的是为了让经销商感受到他们的投资得到保护，同时也确保消费者拥有一个可靠的网络，一个他们可以依靠的经销商网络，不必担心受制于制造商的意愿而无故关闭。
So that's the reason, it's because cars and necessities and dealers put a lot of money into these businesses, and there is obviously a huge disparity in bargaining power between a multi-million dollar enterprise like General Motors Ford, Chrysler back then, and somebody who was scrapping together their life savings to open up a dealership. So that was the genesis of the franchise.
所以这就是原因，因为汽车、生活必需品和经销商在这些企业上投入了大量的资金，而在当时，像通用汽车、福特和克莱斯勒这样的数百万美元企业与一个凑凑自己一生积蓄开店的人之间在议价能力上显然存在巨大的差距。所以这就是特许经销权的起源。
I'm going to try to play devil's advocate, right? So the dealer body has grown a lot in the last 20, 30, 40 years. You know, I don't know, maybe you know the exact number I don't, but clearly, you know, dealerships have grown as population has grown as demand has grown.
我要试着做一下反驳的角色，对吧？所以经销商数量在过去的20年、30年、40年里增长了很多。我不知道确切的数字，也许你知道，但很明显，随着人口的增长和需求的增加，经销商数量也增加了。
Do you think it's still necessary to have these type of laws in today's market when, you know, hypothetically speaking, I could make to claim that there's, you know, lots of third party, third party auto repair facilities and other ways to, you know, potentially get some service done? Do you think it's still necessary in today's market?
在当今市场中，您认为是否仍然有必要制定这种类型的法律呢？举个假设的例子，您知道，我可以提出这样的主张，即有很多第三方汽车维修设施和其他方法，可以潜在地获得一些服务。您认为在当今市场中还有必要吗？
All right. So they're in lives of the rub, right? Because there are people who say, well, this isn't the 40s and 50s and 60s anymore. The owners of these dealerships are more sophisticated. Many of them are public, several of them are public companies or private equity groups or family offices. They can fight for themselves. They don't need, you know, federal and state statutory scheme to guard them against oppressive conduct and would come a long way.
好的。所以他们的生活就像是橡皮擦，对吧？因为有人说，现在已经不是40年代、50年代和60年代了。这些经销商的所有者更加精明。他们中的许多人是上市公司，几个是私募股权集团或家族办公室。他们可以自己为自己争取利益。他们并不需要联邦和州的法律来保护他们免受压迫行为，而且已经走了很长一段路了。
But the reality is maybe the issues are different. Manufacturers still carry, you know, a heavy hand when they deal with franchise dealers.
但实际情况可能是问题不同。制造商在与特许经销商打交道时仍采取比较强硬的手段。
And I would submit that if they had their will, every time a dealer did something, let's say refused allocation of inventory or push back on factory upgrades of the dealership facility or didn't buy certain special tools or equipment. You know, this a human element and that, and I've seen it happen where the owner will say, I'm sorry, the factory rep would say, you know, what I'm going to issue you with termination letter.
我认为，如果他们能按照自己的意愿行事，每当一个经销商做出某种行为，比如拒绝分配库存、对经销商设施的工厂升级提出异议，或者不购买某些特殊工具或设备，那么就会涉及到一个人的因素。我曾见过经销商老板因此而被工厂代表说：“很抱歉，我将给您发一封解雇信。”
And so, yes, we've, we've, and what does that mean? What does that mean for anyone listening that doesn't know? What does that actually mean? Well, you know, right now under the franchise laws, dealership can't be terminated unless there's a material breach and there's an opportunity to hear that breach. And sufficient period of time goes by and then mechanisms of the state statutes that allow for what hold a stay, which means suspension of determination until the matter can be heard by either an administrative law judge or federal or state judge, depending on what the state laws provide.
所以，是的，我们，我们，这是什么意思呢？对于那些不知道的人来说，这意味着什么？这实际上意味着什么？嗯，你知道，根据特许经营法，除非存在实质违约行为并且有听证机会，否则经销商是不能被终止的。然后经过了足够长的时间，依据州法提供的机制可以暂停决定，即暂时不进行终止，直到该事项得到行政法法官或联邦或州法官的审理，具体取决于各州法律的规定。
So, so if you're, you know, Toyota or whoever, like, you know, Nissan, any brand and you approve me as a dealer, I put up money to make that purchase the acquisition, the facility, blah, blah, blah, you can't just terminate me unless there's a, you know, a material breach and, you know, we could define what material means, but there has to be something very significant, maybe like some crazy fraud or something like that. Yeah, there has to be due cause. And that raises the bar because I have seen that without, and I've seen it in other industries.
如果你是丰田或其他品牌的经销商，只要你批准我成为经销商，我会出钱购买车辆、设施等等。除非发生重大违约，比如某种疯狂的欺诈行为，否则你不能随意解雇我。是的，必须有正当理由。这提高了门槛，因为我在其他行业也见过这种情况。
I mean, I do a lot of work in the marine industry and the motorcycle industry. Those statutes don't exist in those cases. The dealers go out and they build whatever they feel they need to do to satisfy the manufacturer in terms of facilities. And then six months later, they don't do something the manufacturer would like them to do when they get a termination letter effective, you know, in 30 days. So those are really oppressive examples of, you know, factory behavior.
我的意思是，我在海上工业和摩托车行业都做了很多工作。在这些情况下，并没有这些法规存在。经销商会出去建造任何他们认为需要的设施，以满足制造商的要求。然后六个月后，他们不做制造商希望他们做的事情，然后会收到一封在30天内生效的终止信。因此，这些都是厂方行为中真正压迫性的例子。
I'm not saying it's rampant. But without these franchise laws, I would argue that manufacturers would exercise their, you know, disparate bargaining power in a way that is very harmful to dealers and in turn harmful consumers. So there is a place for these laws still, even though they were, you know, promulgated at a period of time when, you know, the issues were different, but without these laws, people wouldn't buy these dealerships.
我不是说这种情况十分普遍。但是如果没有这些特许经营法，我认为制造商会运用他们不均等的议价权，对经销商造成很大伤害，进而危害消费者。因此，即使这些法律是在一个与现今问题不同的时期推行的，它们仍然有存在的必要性，因为如果没有这些法律，人们就不会购买这些经销商。
So if you don't get sophisticated people buying these dealerships, knowing that they can't suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them, then that in turn hurts consumers because there's not going to be a tapestry of sophisticated business people with depockets who can run these dealerships in a way to keep the services, service department running, keep the customers happy. It all trickles down to the consumer. So you're certainly not going to get, you know, just, I see the difference in the marine industry. People don't want to buy both dealerships. It's too risky unless, you know, they know that they have protection against unilateral conduct on the part of the manufacturer. So to get, again, keep under, understand the underlying premise here is that consumers need cars. The entire economy runs on the mobility of consumers to work. Hospitals to get, you know, you can go down the list.
因此，如果没有深谙行业的人购买这些经销商，明知道他们不会突然陷入困境，那么这反过来会伤害消费者，因为就不会有一群深谙业务的富有经验的商人能够以一种保持服务部门运营，让客户满意的方式来经营这些经销商。这一切都将从消费者身上反映出来。因此，你肯定不会得到我们在船业中看到的情况。人们不愿意购买两个经销商，因为这太冒险了，除非他们知道自己有保护措施来防止制造商的单方面行为。所以，再次理解这里的基本前提就是消费者需要汽车。整个经济都依赖于消费者的流动能力来工作。去医院、去工作等等，可以列举一长串。
So that can't happen unless there's integrity in the franchise system. So to say, well, we don't need these laws anymore. The manufacturers understand the limits. Spend the fine. They'll just work ethically on their own. Most will, most will, but not all. And a lot of times it depends on the personality of the person making a decision in a particular region. So there needs to be, needs to be some safeguards in place in order to attract the best of the best to run these dealerships.
只有在特许经营体系中存在诚信才不会发生这种情况。所以说，我们不再需要这些法规是错误的。制造商明白限制。他们会支付罚款，并自律地工作。大多数人会，但并非全部。很多时候，这取决于在某个地区做出决策的个人的个性。因此，为了吸引最优秀的人来经营这些经销商，需要一些保障措施。
Here's my take, right? I think that if you put that aside and you say, can car manufacturers retail and service vehicles better than dealership owners? I think that's the very like pragmatic and, you know, just simple way of looking at things in my head. Like the day that that happens, does that now mean that and, you know, if, and you can answer that question, like, can a car manufacturer retail and service a car better than the traditional dealership? If and when that happens, is that does that then make the case for a world where there's no, you know, or there's different franchise laws. And again, it's a big if and when because car manufacturers are manufacturers in that store core competency.
这是我的看法，对吧？我认为，如果你把这一点放在一边，你会说，汽车制造商能否比经销商更好地零售和维修汽车？在我看来，这是一种非常务实和简单的看法。就在这一天，这是否意味着，如果、并且你可以回答这个问题，汽车制造商是否能够比传统经销商更好地零售和维修汽车？如果并且当这种情况发生时，这是否就说明了一个世界中不存在，或者存在不同的特许经销法规的情况？不过这只是一个很大的假设，因为汽车制造商的核心竞争力是制造。
And so that's, and it brings up another point here, which is Ford. A lot of dealers have asked me about this and you have DM'd me send me messages, you know, anecdotes, just things going on at Ford. I think it's a really hot topic nowadays because they've sort of had these like murmurs of disintermediation of, you know, having EVs to some respect go direct to consumer. So I just want to understand from your perspective, is there a world where car manufacturers actually become the retailers or at least try to become the retailers? And, you know, do they do it in some creative way such as launching a new business unit and it's suddenly not, you know, under, you know, it's not confined to franchise laws and stuff like that. Sure, that has been tried over the years.
所以这就是情况，同时也提出了另一个问题，即福特汽车（Ford）。许多经销商向我询问了这个问题，并向我发送了私信，告诉我有关福特汽车的情况，你知道，一些轶事，福特汽车正在发生的事情。我认为这是一个现在非常热门的话题，因为他们似乎有一些消除中间环节的传言，你知道，将电动车直接销售给消费者。所以我想从你的角度来了解一下，是否存在这样一个世界，汽车制造商实际上成为零售商，或者至少试图成为零售商？而且，他们是否会以某种创新的方式来做，比如推出一个新的业务部门，而这个部门不再受制于特许经营法律等等。当然，这些年来已经尝试过这种方式。
You know, even theoretically, if it can be shown that manufacturers are more capable at repairing cars faster and more effectively, then you get into the logistical question. Well, that's great. Everybody lives in Michigan, but or wherever the manufacturer is located, but, you know, they're mass marketing these vehicles to 50 states and around the world. So you need to be where the people are. So it almost moots out the notion that, you know, people that work internally at the engineers or whatever can repair these cars better and faster. It's just not a practical solution because you need to be in the neighborhoods where the customers are. So that's really what underlies the franchise system where, you know, manufacturer has reach and they can provide these services on a national basis.
你知道，即使在理论上，如果能够证明制造商在更快、更有效地修理汽车方面更有能力，那么就会涉及到物流问题。嗯，这很好。虽然每个人都住在密歇根州，或者制造商所在的地方，但是你知道，他们正在向50个州和全球推销这些汽车。所以你需要去顾客所在的地方。因此，几乎可以忽略掉这样一个观念，即在工程师或其他内部工作人员可以更好更快地修理这些车辆。这不是一个实际的解决方案，因为你需要进入顾客所在的社区。这就是特许经营制度的基本原理，制造商拥有影响力并可以在全国范围内提供这些服务。
I would think, you know, if you were speaking to a dealer here, they'd say, no, like, my techs are probably better than anyone at the factory because they see more cars and they see more problems on a daily basis, whereas it's more like, you know, I repair at the manufacturer where they're in a pristine, you know, hospital-like environment with all the tools sitting on a tray next to them provided by somebody else and they're able to do a repair on a vehicle that's brand spanking new, which doesn't require you to remove parts in order to get to the defective part that may already be rusted out or maybe 100,000 mile cars. So, you know, maybe that's a little out of my lane as a lawyer, but I've spoken to enough dealers to say that their teams are actually more effective simply because the manufacturers, engineers, don't really work in the same environment, real world environment, that a dealership technician does.
我觉得，你知道的，如果你在这里跟一个经销商谈话，他们可能会说，不，像我的技术人员可能比工厂里任何人都更好，因为他们每天会看到更多的汽车，面临更多的问题，而在制造商那里，情况更像是，你知道的，我在一个完美无瑕的、类似医院环境里维修，旁边放着一次性工具，由别人提供，并且能够修复崭新的汽车，而不需要拆卸零件以便接触到可能已经生锈或者是行驶十万英里的有问题的零件。所以，你知道的，作为律师，也许这不是我的专业领域，但我已经和足够多的经销商交谈过，可以说他们的团队实际上更加高效，仅因为制造商的工程师并没有真正在同样的现实世界环境下工作，而经销商的技术人员却是如此。
But, you know, the bigger picture, to your point as well, can there ever be a world where all of this is taken care of by the manufacturer? And, you know, I guess the question that should be raised is why is there this movement? Why is there discussions? Why are people talking about eliminating the dealer? Now, I would surmise it's because when we go to that, I say, we meeting you and me and everybody else because we all buy cars, right? How is the experience? Why would we be talking about eliminating the dealer unless it was less than positive? You know, we all know, you know, I see it. I mean, I don't always get cars from my family. So, I have to go in as joke consumer and, you know, used to be a cool client and, you know, try to deal directly with a client.
但是，你知道的，大局来说，正如你所说，能有这样一个世界吗，在这个世界里所有这些都由制造商来负责？而且，你知道的，我猜应该提出的问题是为什么会有这样的动向？为什么会有讨论？为什么人们在谈论消除经销商？现在，我可以推断是因为当我们去买车的时候，我指的是我们大家，因为我们都买车，经验是怎样的？为什么我们会在谈论消除经销商，除非这是一个不太积极的经验？你知道的，我们都知道，我看到了。我不总是给我的家人买车。所以，我必须以玩笑消费者的身份进去，你知道的，过去我是个酷客户，你知道的，尝试直接与客户打交道。
But then I kind of got interested. It's funny because doing what I do, I become, I'm still a salesman in a way. I'm still a car salesman, but not the traditional set. I get calls from lawyers. Keep in mind, this is not an area of specialty that most lawyers focus on. So, you know, lawyer, let's just say the New York metro area. Lawyers know of me. So I get calls almost daily. You know, my daughter's buying a car. Can you help me? They're like, they'd like to buy a car. Do you know a dealer that can help me with this problem? So I actually enjoy it because it's never really left my blood. But it kind of puts me front and center where I can kind of like be a proxy for a consumer and find out what it is there experiencing. So I get it. I understand why there's this satisfaction going into a showroom and going through the drill. What can I do to earn your business? When I hear that live.
但是后来我开始产生了兴趣。有趣的是，做我现在的工作，从某种角度来说，我仍然是一个销售员。我仍然是一名汽车销售员，只不过不是传统意义上的那种。我会接到律师的电话。请记住，大多数律师并不专注于这个领域。所以你知道，在纽约市区，律师们都知道我。所以我几乎每天都会接到电话。你知道，我女儿要买辆车。你能帮我吗？他们想买辆车。你知道有哪个经销商可以帮我解决这个问题吗？所以我实际上很喜欢这个工作，因为它从未离开过我。但它也让我能够站在第一线，代表消费者，了解他们的体验。所以我明白。我理解为什么进入陈列室并经历整个过程会让人满意。当我亲身听到"我该怎样才能赢得您的业务呢？"这句话时，我就明白了。
Yeah. I think you bring up a good point. I think customer experience, right? It's the customer experience is the driver, right? If the customer experience is elevated, then maybe people are not looking at what's, you know, or what can be changed here because they're actually enjoying the experience. If they were enjoying the experience, I don't think there'd be too much chatter about eliminating the dealer. And it's not to say all experiences are bad. I mean, I've been buying cars for a long time and I've also helped people buy cars and I can say sometimes it's really refreshing. You know, you get really professional people who are not high pressure, who know the product, who are able to deal with the thing. And this is, you know, I'll get into this. I know that, you know, this is the argument against having direct sales.
是的，我觉得你提出了一个很好的观点。我认为客户体验很重要，对吧？客户体验是推动力。如果客户体验提升了，也许人们就不会太关注这里有什么可以改变的东西，因为他们真的在享受这种体验。如果他们真的在享受这种体验，我觉得就不会有太多讨论消除经销商的争论了。当然，并不是说所有的经验都很糟糕。我买过很多车，也帮助别人买过车，有时候确实挺令人耳目一新的。你会遇到真正专业、不施加过多压力、了解产品的人，他们能够解决问题。这也是反对直销的论点所在。
So that is that buying the car is the easy part. You know, that may take a day, week, you know, somewhere in that realm. But you've got to deal with the trade-in. You've got to deal with the realities of the world. There are people that have less than perfect credit. You know, when you talk about dealing direct, I mean, if everything is perfect, yeah, I suppose that could go seamlessly. But we don't live in a world where everybody has great credit. People don't have trade-ins and they don't have questions and they need to measure the car to see if it fits in their garage. You know, all the real world things that those.
所以买车只是其中的一小部分。你知道的，这可能需要一天、一周，大概在那个范围内。但你还得处理置换的问题。你还得面对现实世界的挑战。有些人的信用记录并不完美。当你谈到直接交易时，如果一切都完美无缺，那当然可以顺利进行。但我们生活在一个并非每个人信用记录都很好的世界里。人们没有置换车辆，他们有问题，他们需要测量车辆是否适合放进他们的车库。你知道的，所有那些现实世界的问题。
The nuances, yeah. The nuances. And those nuances are, you know, oftentimes very complex. I mean, I don't understand everything I'm signing and I draft half the stuff I think in a dealership. To go through a closing at a dealership, you know, it's kind of like buying a house, right? So the idea that we can do this remotely, you know, it's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but it doesn't really work.
那种微妙之处，是的。那些微妙之处往往非常复杂。我的意思是，我并不完全理解我签署的所有内容，我在经销商那里起草了我认为的一半东西。要在经销商那里完成交割手续，就有点像买房子一样，对吧？所以，我们可以远程完成这个过程的想法，在纸上听起来不错，但实际上并不实用。
You know, if I had advice to play devil's advocate now, because everybody says, oh, you're a dealer advocate, so you'll never acknowledge anything wrong with the franchise system. I mean, that's just not true. You know, let's look at the last five years. Dealers have made record profits as a result of the pandemic, right? Because I change people were moving out of metro areas into suburban. They needed an extra car. Whole host of things that everybody knows about. And there was a limited supply. So supply and demand took over. Dealers were charging list price in many cases over list price because of a whole other discussion. They didn't have floor plan costs, which saved them a lot of money. They didn't need to advertise because there was a shortage of vehicles out there. So they saved money all around the board. And they made huge profits.
你知道的，如果我现在要劝诸位换位思考一下的话，因为每个人都说，哦，你是经销商的拥护者，所以你永远不会承认特许经营制度存在任何问题。我是说，那真的不是事实。让我们看看过去的五年。经销商由于疫情的影响取得了创纪录的利润，对吧？因为我改变了人们从都市地区搬到了郊区。他们需要一辆额外的汽车。一系列的因素众所周知。而且供应有限。于是供需关系发挥了作用。在许多情况下，经销商要价高于市价，因为还有很多其他的问题需要讨论。他们没有库存成本，这为他们节省了很多钱。他们不需要广告，因为市场上的车辆短缺。所以他们在各个方面都节省了钱，并获得了巨额利润。
So what I say to my clients is, look, you know, when I walk into your dealership, there's this feeling and this doesn't apply to all clients. I'm just kind of addressing the people that probably wrote into you and said, you know, dealers need to be eradicated from the face of the earth. High pressure attack. That's not okay. I would, I would debate that. However, that doesn't mean there are plenty of those experience, those showrooms out there.
所以我对我的客户说的是，你知道，当我走进你的经销商店的时候，会有一种感觉，但这并不适用于所有的客户。我只是在回答那些可能写信给你并说经销商需要从地球上消失的人。高压攻击是不可接受的。我会反驳这一点。然而，这并不意味着没有很多类似的经历和展厅存在。
And I say to my clients, look, you made an awful lot of money over the last 40 years. Why don't you hire people? Hate them really good salaries. Hate them. Pay someone who's really committed to making customers happy $150,000 a year. Rather than paying them front money of, you know, a couple hundred dollars, they have to eat what they kill and they become piranhas. And they, and they, they address consumers with a view towards, I got to close this deal today. Payroll is next Friday. I got to deliver that. That's not a healthy environment. Even if you go into the relationship with high ideals, it forces you to be someone that customers don't like dealing with. So, so I'll concede that transaction should be handled on a more professional level. They should be faster. So much shouldn't have to spend six or seven hours at a dealership. So there are things that franchise dealers need to do better. And I think that would diffuse some of the critical commentary that general consumers have and foster this notion that we have to deal direct with the factory.
我对我的客户说，看，过去40年里你们赚了很多钱。为什么不雇佣人呢？给他们高薪。好好对待他们。每年给那些真正致力于让顾客满意的人支付15万美元。而不是只给他们几百美元的零花钱，让他们凭吞食所杀来谋生，变成食人鱼。他们以“我必须在今天成交，下周发工资单了”的心态来对待顾客，这不是一个健康的环境。即使你以高尚的理想进入这种关系，它也会迫使你成为顾客不喜欢交易的人。因此，我承认交易应该在更专业的水平上处理。它们应该更快速。不应该让顾客在经销商那里花六七个小时。所以，法定经销商需要做得更好。我认为这样可以化解一些一般消费者的批评评论，并培养出我们必须直接与工厂打交道的观念。
And that's why can't everyone be like Tesla. You know, my argument there is, as I said earlier, buying the car is really the easy part. You try and get the best deal you can. But you're going to live with the dealer for now four years or five years, depending on the warranty. That's not so easy when you're dealing with a manufacturer, you know, ten states away. Ask it any Tesla owner. By the way, Tesla owner, you got to really know them. You got to be have one that's a friend. Can't just ask a Tesla owner was the experience greater. Happy with it. He's going to tell you, I love it. I hate dealing with the other. Ask friend or relative. Say, well, every time I have to bring my car in for service, I call, they send the flatbed out. Takes two days to get here and that car is gone for a week. I call and try to find out the status. I can't speak with anybody. Honest people. It's not just Tesla. Anyone that, you know, isn't that realm.
这就是为什么不能人人都像特斯拉一样。你知道，我的论点是，就像我之前说过的，买车真的很容易。你努力争取能够得到最好的交易。但你将与经销商共度四年或五年的时光，这并不容易，尤其当你要与十个州以外的制造商打交道时。去问问任何一位特斯拉车主。顺便说一下，特斯拉车主，你真的得了解他们。你得认识一个有特斯拉的朋友。你不能只问一个特斯拉车主体验如何。他会告诉你，我喜欢它，但厌恶与维修方面的交流。你可以问问朋友或亲戚，他们会说，每次我需要维修我的车的时候，我打电话，他们派专车过来。要两天才到，然后车子还要去一个星期。我打电话去询问进展情况，却找不到任何人可以交流。老实说，这不仅仅是特斯拉的问题，任何处于同一领域的公司都存在这个问题。
Yeah, the buying experience is good because you don't have to get, you don't have to negotiate. That's what really people don't like. And in just about every case, they're overpaying. All of the discussion. They're overpaying, but many of them will say I'd rather overpay that have to sit there and listen to somebody say, what do I have to do to get you into this card? Some of the things that people find.
是的，购买体验很好，因为你不需要参与，也不必进行协商。这就是人们真正不喜欢的地方。而且几乎每种情况下，他们都是在支付过高的价格。所有讨论都是如此。他们支付过高，但其中许多人会说，宁愿支付过高的价格，也不愿坐在那里听别人说：“我该怎么做才能让你买这辆车呢？”这是人们发现的一些问题。
Well, that's an important distinction, right? Like, I think Carmack's proved that out that people are willing to overpay for, you know, convenience, not having to negotiate or, quote, unquote, at least knowing that the amount they're overpaying is consistent and it's not potentially, you know, gouging or something along those lines. Yeah.
嗯，这是一个重要的区别，对吧？我认为卡马克已经证明了这一点，人们愿意为方便而多付钱，不用去讨价还价，或者至少知道他们多付的金额是一致的，而且不是潜在的剥削或类似的行为。是的。
So that's a decision consumers have to make because I know that if I want to buy a pair of shoes and I go to Macy's, you know, I probably go somewhere and get a cheaper price, but it's convenient. The company has a good reputation. I know I'll get it a couple days. I know if I have a problem, they'll take it back. So those are kind of things that people are willing to pay extra for. Not everybody.
所以这是消费者需要做出的决定，因为我知道如果我想买一双鞋，去梅西百货的话，我可能会去其他地方找到更便宜的价格，但在梅西百货购买更加方便。该公司名声好，我知道商品几天内就能送到，而且如果有问题，他们会接受退换。所以这些是人们愿意为之额外支付费用的原因。当然，并不是每个人都这样。
Most people still want to deal. I remember when Saturn came out, you know, the attraction there was you didn't have to negotiate. It's a long time ago, you know, it was fixed pricing. But I spoke to all the Saturn dealers I knew back then and they said consumers still come in and negotiate. So they say they don't like to negotiate, and practice. They really do.
大多数人仍然喜欢讨价还价。我记得当 Saturn 上市时，你知道，吸引人的地方是你不需要讨价还价。这是很久以前的事了，你知道，那时是定价的。但我与那时认识的所有 Saturn 经销商交谈过，他们说消费者仍然会进来讨价还价。所以他们说他们不喜欢讨价还价，并试图实践。但实际上，他们确实会这样做。
So some of these platforms are designed to deliver what consumers want, but not every consumer is the same. Everybody is different. I know that when you deal direct with a manufacturer, you're always looking for some sale. And I don't mean to jump around, but you know, what's going on today is that those same consumers who felt comfort in buying from, let's say, Tesla, because they knew that the price was fixed. Everybody across the country was going to pay the same price. How do they feel now? Tesla has reduced the price by 25% of the same car that this customer bought, let's say a year ago. Well, is that a case to be made for, you know, claiming that like the markup just transcends the dealer body? Like that's pretty much like market pricing is market pricing. Is that ultimately the lesson here, right? Whether it's the OEM, you know, marking it up and not declaring it a markup or the dealer marking it up. Is that really the ultimate?
因此，一些平台的设计目标是提供消费者想要的东西，但并非所有消费者都相同。每个人都是不同的。我知道，当你直接与制造商交易时，你总是在寻找一些折扣。我不是说要跳来跳去，但你知道，如今发生的事情是，那些之前习惯于从特斯拉等品牌购买的消费者，因为他们知道价格是固定的，他们感觉舒适。全国各地的人都要支付相同的价格。他们现在会有什么感觉呢？特斯拉将同一款车的价格降低了25%，而这位顾客可能一年前购买了同款车。那么，这是否可以认为是超越经销商的加价的一个例子呢？这几乎就像市场定价就是市场定价。这就是教训吗？无论是原始设备制造商（OEM）涨价而未宣布涨价，还是经销商涨价。这真的是最终的结论吗？
The message here is that when you deal with direct with a manufacturer, you don't know if they're making a huge profit on you. You know, when a manufacturer a year later reduces the price by 25%, I think it's safe to conclude, yeah, they made a huge profit on you because they lowered the price by 25%, presumably they're making a profit selling cars less than a reasonable return on investment.
这段话的意思是，当你直接与制造商打交道时，你并不知道他们是否从你身上赚取了巨额利润。你知道，如果一家制造商一年后将价格降低25%，我觉得可以安全地得出结论，是的，他们从你身上赚了很多钱，因为他们将价格降低了25%，可以推测他们以低于合理投资回报的售价盈利。
But with the franchise system, and this is the centerpiece of the debate between, you know, pro factory direct and the dealers. They'll say that when you deal direct with a manufacturer, you're not in a competitive environment. Now, the economists that support direct selling will turn that argument around and say, oh, no, it's just the opposite. When you have a franchise system, that's like a monopoly because all these dealers control the price and they'll get this price won't discount.
然而，通过特许经营制度, 这也是争论的核心，你知道的，支持直接工厂销售和经销商之间的争论。他们会说，当你直接向制造商购买时，你没有处于竞争环境中。然而，支持直接销售的经济学家会反过来说，哦，不，恰恰相反。当你有一个特许经营制度时，就像是垄断，因为所有这些经销商控制价格，他们不会打折。
In the real world, this is why I have a problem with economists who are not really automotive experts. In the real world, if you go out one day to buy a car and you say, I'm going to visit three or four dealers, not one of them will be, you know, it will be identical prices. Everyone is vying for your business. So you'll know by the time you get to the fourth dealership that whichever one gave you the best price is probably a very fair price because each one wants your business.
在现实世界中，这就是我对那些并非真正了解汽车的经济学家感到困惑的原因。在现实世界中，如果你某天出去买车，你会说，我去三四家经销商那里看看，其中没有一家会给你相同的价格。每个商家都在争夺你的生意。所以当你到达第四家经销商时，你会知道给你最好价格的那家可能是相当公平的价格，因为每家都想要你的生意。
Unlike the scenario where you call online, Tesla or Lucid or Rivian and you're a force fatter price and you either pay that price or you don't purchase the vehicle, at least the vehicle. So that's the argument. You know, intro brand competition is good for the consumer. Dealing with a manufacturer directly eliminates the ability of a consumer to negotiate a discounted price. Now, is that bad? No, because some consumers would rather pay Tesla, you know, $132,000 for a Model S because they don't have to deal with the salesperson. You know, I would say, look, that painful two hours to speak to somebody that probably $20,000 more than you need to.
不同于在网上联系特斯拉、露骨汽车或瑞维安这样的公司，并被告知一个虚高的价格，你要么支付那个价格，要么不购买这辆车。这就是争论点。你知道，自主品牌的竞争对消费者有好处。直接与制造商交易会消除消费者讨价还价的能力。那么，这样做是不是不好呢？不，因为一些消费者宁愿支付特斯拉132,000美元购买Model S，因为他们不需要与销售人员打交道。你知道，我会说，为了那两个痛苦的小时花钱找人咨询，你可能支付了比所需多20,000美元。
And the reason I say $20,000 is because now that same Model S is, you know, less than $100,000. So it all depends on the desires of the consumer. But I don't think it's a signal that the franchise system is so tainted that it needs to be either reinvented or eliminated altogether. And ultimately, you want convenience and it's more convenient to deal with a business owner in your neighborhood than it is to flatbed your vehicle to get service and not have the same level of communication.
我之所以说20000美元是因为现在同一款Model S的售价不到100000美元。所以一切取决于消费者的需求。但我不认为这是一个信号，表明特许经营系统被弄脏，需要彻底重塑或取消。最终，您希望的是便利，与您附近的商家打交道比将您的车辆拖走去维修要更便利，并且不会有同样的沟通水平。
Looking at what Ford has claimed and, you know, just Ford's philosophy on EVs and thinking about what Tesla has done, what's stopping Ford from going D to C with respect to EVs? Like what is actually stopping them? Why can't they do it if Tesla has done it? Why can't they do it for their EVs? If we're going to assume that they're not putting the customer first, you can make the claim that they are. You can make the claim that they're not. The only reason I'm saying that, by the way, is because it seems like they're trying to force feed customers, you know, certain EVs that are maybe not desired in the market just based on demand and what I'm seeing.
看看福特声称的和他们对电动车的理念，再考虑一下特斯拉所做的事情，到底有什么阻碍福特在电动车领域做到与特斯拉相当呢？实际上有什么阻碍他们呢？为什么福特不能像特斯拉一样成功地开发电动车呢？为什么他们的电动车无法做到这一点呢？如果我们假设他们不把顾客放在第一位，那么我们可以认为他们是这样做的，也可以认为他们不是这样做的。我之所以这样说，只是因为他们似乎试图强行向顾客推销某些市场上不受欢迎的电动车型。
But all that aside, like what is stopping Ford from doing exactly what Tesla did? So all 50 states have dealer franchise laws that essentially say the same thing. If you're what's called a legacy manufacturer, that means a manufacturer that has an existing network of franchise dealers in the marketplace, then you can't sell direct because you can't. It's not fair to these business owners who have invested millions of dollars that now suddenly have to compete with their own manufacturer.
然而，除此之外，福特有什么阻止他们像特斯拉一样去做呢？所以所有50个州都有代理商加盟法，基本上都说的是一样的。如果你是所谓的传统制造商，也就是在市场上已经有现有的代理商网络的制造商，那你不能直接销售，因为你不能。这对那些已经投资了数百万美元的企业主来说是不公平的，现在突然间他们要和自己的制造商竞争。
Tesla doesn't have that baggage, so to speak. They don't have a legacy franchise dealer. So they can start with a clean slate. And depending on the state statute, I mean, some states, even without a legacy of franchise dealerships, won't permit direct sales. And that's what Tesla has been fighting that battle for years now in those states that don't permit direct sales. Unless you have. So how do you buy Tesla on those states? A new one? Well, you have to go outside of the state. You wouldn't buy a Tesla in those states. You'd have to go. You have to figure out a way to buy it in a state, a neighboring state that does permit direct sales to consume. And like, what are some of those states that prohibit that? Oh, well, I know.
特斯拉没有这种包袱，可以这么说。他们没有传统特许经销商。所以他们可以从零开始。根据州法规的不同，有些州即使没有传统特许经销商，也不允许直接销售。特斯拉正是在这些不允许直接销售的州里奋斗了多年。除非你有办法，否则你在这些州如何购买特斯拉呢？买辆新的？好吧，你必须去州外购买。你不能在这些州买特斯拉。你必须找到一种办法，在允许直接销售的邻近州购买特斯拉。那么，有哪些禁止直接销售的州呢？哦，我知道。
You know, it's fun. I should add to another category. There are plenty of states like New York and New Jersey and a few others on the East Coast that do prohibit direct sales, but have entered into stipulated settlements with Tesla to allow a finite number of dealerships state. Some of them showrooms, but don't allow sales. But in those states that have carved out an exception, they are, even though it's not withstanding the fact that there is a prohibition in the state's franchise laws, they have been granted relief, let's say, to open five or seven or 10 stores and a particular state. So even the states that have the right to thwart these direct sellers, they agree to it. There's a debate on whether that was wise. I didn't think that was a smart thing to do in certain states, but it's been done already. And, you know, those states, those consumers and those states that have a prohibition can still buy in the states.
你知道的，这很有趣。我应该添加到另一个类别中。有很多像纽约和新泽西这样的州，在东海岸禁止直销，但与特斯拉达成协议，允许在该州设立有限数量的经销商。其中一些是展示厅，但不允许销售。但在那些设立例外的州，尽管州法禁止直销，它们已经获得了豁免，也就是说，可以在特定的州开设五个、七个或十个门店。所以即使那些有权阻止这些直销商的州，它们也同意这样做。关于这是否明智存在争议。我不认为在某些州这样做是明智的，但它已经实施了。而且，你知道，那些有禁止令的州的消费者仍然可以在其他州购买。
I don't remember every single state's law as we sit here. It's easy for me to find out, but there are some states that just simply don't permit direct sales by Tesla. So you're saying that Ford is bound to additional restrictions because it's a legacy manufacturer that Tesla simply is not. That's correct. That's correct. So it's more challenging for a manufacturer like Ford who decides to go Tesla. That was the debate a year ago. Interesting. But 12 months has done. 12 months ago Ford was talking about separating out its EV manufacturing and selling their treating it as something else and equating itself with Tesla and try to sell direct and bypass their dealers. That met with a lot of resistance. And Ford eventually backpedaled and decided not to do that.
我们坐在这里的时候，我记不得每个州的法律。我可以很容易地查到，但有一些州根本不允许特斯拉直接销售。所以你是说，福特受到额外的限制，因为它是一家传统制造商，而特斯拉则不是。没错，没错。所以对于像福特这样决定效仿特斯拉的制造商来说，更具挑战性。这是一年前的辩论。有趣。但是12个月过去了。12个月之前，福特正在讨论将其电动汽车制造部门分离出来，并将其销售作为其他事物来对待，并将自己与特斯拉等同起来，试图直接销售并绕过经销商。这遭到了很多抵制。最终，福特改变了主意，决定不这么做。
You know, the notion is that, well, we don't want, you know, internal combustion engine dealers selling EVs because they're not interested in selling EVs. Their comfort level is selling ICE vehicles and they won't do a good job. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Dealers will sell tricycle if they can make a profit. And that's a good one. And that's true. But what do you think was the real reason? Do you think they wanted to like, you know, have a cruel, those economics at the top? Like what do you think they really were? I think we're felt back then, you know, 12 months ago that EVs were the new wave and they were going to continue and gain market share. And Ford probably wanted to trim down its dealer network. And this was a way to strangle dealers into economic submission.
你知道，观念是这样的，我们不希望，你知道的，内燃机汽车销售商销售电动车，因为他们对销售电动车不感兴趣。他们对销售传统燃油车比较熟悉，而且他们不会做得很好。这太荒谬了。这太荒谬了。销售商只要能赚钱，他们就会销售三轮车。这是一个好点子，也是事实。但你认为真正的原因是什么？你认为他们想要像对待高层经济学那样残酷吗？你认为他们当时的真实意图是什么？我认为在那时候，大约12个月前，我们觉得电动车是新潮流，会继续增加市场份额。而福特可能想要减少经销商网络。这是一种扼制经销商经济活动的方法。
I mean, that's a very nefarious view of things, but, you know, there's a lot of people out there that felt that that was a diabolical plan of Ford to try to reduce the dealer network. It didn't work out. There are sales of EVs. And this is true of all the EVs. This is really topical. This is last month, two months. They've hit a brick wall.
我的意思是，那是对事物非常邪恶的看法，但是你懂的，有很多人认为这是福特试图减少经销商网络的恶魔计划。然而，这并没有成功。电动汽车的销量也是如此。对所有电动汽车来说，这是一个非常热门的话题。就在上个月或者两个月前，他们遇到了困境。
You know, the, I don't mean to jump around, but it kind of answers your question indirectly. Was it smart for Ford to try and do that? And I say, no, it was foolish. It was foolish because EVs are not tried and true. They have only eight or 9% market share. More than half of that is Tesla. So that isn't enough of a stronghold to reinvent your franchise system and try to do an end-run around it. And here, only 12 months. I mean, that's like, it's like yesterday, 12 months in the car business is not now Ford has a surplus inventory of Mach E's F-150 lightnings. They're sitting on dealer lots, not because EVs are bad. It's because it's going to take a very long time, in my opinion. I mean, 10, 15, 20, 30 years before manufacturers get to the point that they thought they were going to get too much sooner as of a year ago.
你知道的，我并不是要离题，但这算是间接回答了你的问题。福特试图这么做是明智的吗？我觉得不，是愚蠢的。这是愚蠢的，因为电动车还没有经过充分的尝试和验让。其市场份额仅占8%或9%，其中一半以上为特斯拉。因此，这还不足以重新构建你的特许经营系统并试图绕过它。而且，仅仅12个月。我是说，这就像昨天一样，12个月在汽车业里算不了什么。现在，福特的Mach E和F-150 Lightning库存积压在经销商那里，不是因为电动车不好，而是因为在我看来这需要很长时间。我是说，可能要10年、15年、20年、30年，制造商才能达到他们一年前认为的目标。
And I think it's because people have resistance to the unknown. You know, there's a lot of discussion about whether EVs are truly environmentally friendly, whether they cost, whether they cost more than ICE vehicles to operate. They aren't more expensive to purchase, but there are a lot of studies out there that say they're more expensive to operate. There is range anxiety, right, of the inability to charge a vehicle. How long is the weight going to be if you find the charging station? Are the charging stations going to be operable? I mean, these are all real world problems.
我认为这是因为人们对未知事物有抵触心理。你知道，关于电动汽车是否真正环保、是否更贵等问题一直存在很多讨论。电动汽车购买并不比燃油车更贵，但有许多研究表明，电动汽车的使用成本更高。还有换电焦虑，也就是无法充电的担忧。如果找到充电站要等多久呢？充电站能正常运营吗？这些都是现实世界中的问题。
And there have been early adopters, and those early adopters have adopted EVs. But what about the rest of the market? What about the other 90 percent? So do you really want to build a franchise system around less than 5 percent? I mean, Ford doesn't have 5 percent market share. Tesla has 5 percent. And the all of the other manufacturers share the other 5 percent. So you're going to reinvent your franchise system over theoretically 1 to 2 percent market share. It's kind of a fool's play. And that's been the argument of the dealers.
有一些早期采用者，这些早期采用者已经接受了电动汽车。但是其他市场呢？其他90%的市场怎么样呢？所以，你真的想围绕不到5%的市场份额来建立一个特许经营系统吗？我的意思是，福特没有5%的市场份额，特斯拉有5%，其他所有制造商加起来也才占据了5%。所以，你要在理论上只占据1%至2%的市场份额上重新创造你的特许经营系统。这有点像在做愚蠢的事。这就是经销商们的论点。
And unfortunately, Ford is probably the one worth talking about because they were a little precipitous. And jumping in with both feet, they mandated that if dealers wanted to sell EVs, they had to belly up a well over a million dollars. If you were Ford and Lincoln dealer, you had to pay two million dollars to retrofit your facility to accommodate charging station equipment, public facing charging stations. You name it. There's a lot of renovations that needed to be made. And dealers would say, well, why would I pay a million to sell a product that the consumers have not embraced yet? It just seems like there's too much politics involved.
可是不幸的是，Ford可能是值得讨论的一个，因为他们有点仓促行事。他们全力以赴，强制要求经销商如果想销售电动汽车，就必须投入超过一百万美元的费用。如果你是Ford和Lincoln的经销商，你必须支付两百万美元来改造你的设施以适应充电设备和公共充电站。你可以想到的，需要做很多翻新工作。经销商会问，我为什么要花一百万来销售一个消费者还没有接受的产品？这似乎涉及了太多政治因素。
Of course, the Biden administration has been putting pressure on all the OEMs, the auto manufacturers to get EVs into the marketplace, be 100 percent EVs by 2030, 2035. So manufacturers were spending billions of dollars, billions of dollars on an unproven means of transportation. And now as recently as a month ago, some cases as recently as a week ago, there are telltale signs that EVs, I'm not saying they're going to be eradicated, but this is going to be a long, slow slog. And a lot of selling that's like telling a child, you know, seven year old, they got to start liking broccoli. It just doesn't happen.
当然，拜登政府一直在对所有原始设备制造商施加压力，要求将电动汽车推向市场，到2030年、2035年实现100％的电动汽车。因此，制造商们花费了数十亿美元，数以十亿计的美元用于未经验证的交通方式。而且最近一个月，最近一周甚至出现了一些迹象表明，电动汽车，我并不是说它们将被消灭，但这将是一个漫长而缓慢的挣扎过程。这种销售方式很像告诉一个孩子，一个七岁的孩子，他们必须开始喜欢西兰花。这是不可能的。
And that's what consumers are facing right now is they don't want to be told what they have to buy. They know what they like. And they resent the fact that, you know, the federal government is mandating that these manufacturers kind of reinvent what the roadways are going to look like in this country. So there's a little bit of a backlash and Tesla has some real problems right now because they lowered the price. It's kind of a race to the bottom now. You know, there's been a price war in play.
现在消费者面临的问题是他们不想被告知他们必须购买什么。他们知道自己喜欢什么。他们对于联邦政府强制这些制造商重新设计这个国家的道路感到愤慨。因此产生了一些反弹，特斯拉现在遇到了一些真正的问题，因为他们降低了价格。现在有一场降价之争。
So what I'm, I guess what I'm saying is it's a very volatile automotive industry. So no one should be staking territory and saying, this is the right answer. This is the wrong answer. It is really a lot to be learned. And we're in the process as we speak right now, figuring out how this is all going to unfold. So when Ford says to its dealer body, well, you need to reinvent yourself. We're not going to give you EVs. Oh, we are going to give you EVs. You have to spend a million to renovate your facility. Otherwise you're not able to sell it. It's just like the Wild West. People are just spewing nonsense.
所以我想说的是，汽车行业非常不稳定。因此，没有人应该固守立场说，这就是正确答案，那才是错误答案。还有很多东西需要学习。我们正在进行这个过程，看看这一切会如何展开。所以当福特对经销商说，你们需要重新发展自己。我们不会给你们提供电动汽车。哦，我们会给你们提供电动汽车。你们必须花一百万来翻新你们的设施，否则你们就无法销售。就像是西部荒野一样，人们只是胡言乱语。
And then it goes back to your question. Is it necessary to have these franchise laws in place? No over 1960. Well, here we are in 2023 and Ford is threatening to basically take away. If they really felt that EVs were going to be the wave of the future, then by precluding their dealers from selling them unless they spent the exorbitant amounts of money, they're basically saying, we're going to freeze you out.
然后就回到了你的问题。现如今还有必要制定这些特许经营法吗？在1960年之后从来没有过。嗯，现在我们已经是2023年了，而福特正在威胁着基本上停止销售。如果他们真的觉得电动汽车将是未来的趋势，那么通过禁止他们的经销商销售电动汽车，除非他们花费过高的金额，他们基本上是在说，我们要将你们排挤出去。
So that's why there are franchise laws. And that's why in some states, dealers have gone to court to put a stop for his precipitous behavior and put a hold on it until we see how the market unfolds and whether demand continues to increase for EVs or whether it's going to go into the hybrid realm.
这就是为什么会有特许经营法。而在一些州，经销商们已经诉诸法庭，以制止他的操之过急的行为，并将其暂停，直到我们看到市场的发展情况以及对电动车的需求是否持续增长，或者是否会转向混合动力领域。
It's going to be the case, whether it's plug in or other, even Toyota.
不管是插电式还是其他型号，甚至包括丰田汽车，这都会成为现实。
Toyota knows a few things about selling cars, right? They were last to the party with EVs. They believed in hydrogen fuel cell technology. And now the former chairman of Toyota said, I told him words and substance said, I told you so. So things are unfolding almost on a weekly basis. And that underscores why franchise laws exist because dealers would otherwise be having to operate their business at the whim of whatever an automotive executive is buying into.
丰田对于销售汽车了解不少，对吧？他们在电动汽车方面来得比较晚，却坚信氢燃料电池技术的潜力。如今，丰田的前主席表示：“我早就告诉他了。”事情几乎每周都有新进展。这正是特许经销法存在的原因，因为如果没有这些法律，经销商就得按照汽车行业高层的兴趣来运营业务了，没有自主权。
They said Ford CEO Jim Farley had lost for Tesla. Elon Musk lost. Wanted to be Tesla. Maybe he was pressured by investors. But you know, that was 12 months ago. As of recently, there's a business insider article. I think they just came out yesterday or a few days ago that says Tesla's really facing a tough economic crisis right now.
他们说福特公司首席执行官吉姆·法利输给了特斯拉。埃隆·马斯克输了。他想成为特斯拉。或许他受到了投资者的压力。但是你知道，那是在12个月之前的事情了。最近有一篇商业内幕的文章。我想他们昨天或几天前刚刚发布，其中说特斯拉现在正面临着严重的经济危机。
So who knows what will happen a year or two from now with Tesla. So to emulate that business model and say that Tesla needs to continue to be direct to consumer, I would argue the opposite of Tesla. Cool. Me and ask my two cents. I would say, listen, now that the time has come for you to embrace the franchise. It hasn't been around for 125 years as a force. I mean, the best and the brightest. What about a manufacturer's have continued to embrace franchise system. So what makes Tesla so much smarter than everybody else? What benefit that's a bold statement to make?
那么谁知道一年或两年后特斯拉会发生什么呢。因此，要模仿这个商业模式并声称特斯拉需要继续直销，我会对特斯拉的观点持相反意见。天哪，这只是我的个人见解。我要说的是，现在是时候接受特许经营了。特许经营并没有像一个强大的力量存在125年。我的意思是，有哪个制造商继续支持特许经营体系呢？那么特斯拉究竟比其他人聪明在哪里呢？这是一个大胆的陈述，有何好处呢？
What benefit do you think Tesla would get by embracing a franchise system? Well, you know, first of all, service. They'd have the ability to get their customers serviced on a more convenient basis. Do they need franchise for that? Can they do that just corporate owned? Well, they could. They could go form an alliance with, you know, pet boys or, you know, some private book. Why? Why resist? Why resist with every other manufacturer? And I'm just playing devil's advocate. They could be 100%. But why are they deciding to resist with every other manufacturer in the United States has embraced, which is the franchise system? It's not just automobiles. It's food. It's gymnasium. It's printing cup. Why is the franchise system so good? Why is 70% of every good in service that you would buy from a franchise sales operation? Why is that not good enough for Tesla?
你认为特斯拉接受特许经销制度会得到什么好处？嗯，首先，服务方面。如果他们采用特许经销制度，他们将能够为客户提供更加便利的服务。他们需要特许经销制度来实现这一点吗？他们可以只采用自己的公司所有的方式来做到这一点。是的，他们可以。他们可以与像Pet Boys或其他私人公司建立联盟。为什么？为什么要抵制呢？为什么要和其他制造商抵制不同？我只是在做反驳。他们可以选择100%采用特许经销制度。但为什么他们决定和美国的其他制造商一样抵制特许经销制度呢？这不仅仅是汽车行业，还有食品、健身房和印刷杯等等。为什么特许经销制度如此好？为什么从特许经销销售业务购买的任何产品和服务中有70%都是好的？为什么这对特斯拉来说不够好呢？
There was a time that Elon Musk said that he may consider the franchise model. He's not 100% of those. He has. But I think that if Tesla is in dire straits as it seems to be, then why wouldn't he embrace the franchise system? Because consumers need to be made aware why Tesla has superior benefits over and above other EVs. Who's going to express that? When you have now you have BMW and Mercedes and Audi and just about Kia and Hyundai coming out with EV models and sales people touting the benefits. Now Tesla's got competition.
有一次，埃隆·马斯克曾经表示他可能会考虑采用特许经营模式。他并不完全坚持那种做法。但我认为，如果特斯拉处于如此困境，为什么他不接受特许经营系统呢？因为消费者需要了解为什么特斯拉具有超越其他电动汽车的优势。谁来传达这一点呢？当现在巴迪公司、奔驰公司、奥迪公司，以及几乎所有起亚和现代的推出电动车型并有销售人员积极推销其优势。现在特斯拉面临竞争。
Tesla's set for eight years or nine years without competition. It had its run and that's great. And to his credit, it was way ahead of the curve. But he's got competition now. And when you have competition, you have to build a better mouse trap. And I'm not anti-Tesla. I'm just saying that when you look at the model between BMW and Hyundai and Mercedes and all the American manufacturers and Asian and German manufacturers, they freshen up their products, right? Every couple of years. The model S Tesla looks the same today as it did nine years ago. There's no difference. People like change. They want to feel like they bought a new car. It looks like a new car.
特斯拉在未被竞争对手挑战前部署了八年或九年。它一直领先行业发展，并且取得了很大成功。值得赞扬的是，它完全领先于其他竞争对手。但现在它面临竞争了。当你有竞争对手时，你必须做出更好的产品。我并不反对特斯拉。我只是在说，当你看到宝马、现代、梅赛德斯和其他美国、亚洲和德国的汽车制造商时，他们每隔几年就会更新他们的产品，对吗？特斯拉的Model S从九年前到现在看起来一样，没有任何变化。人们喜欢改变。他们想要感觉自己买了一辆新车。它看起来像一辆新车。
So there's a lot of things that have led to this discussion. Why can't all the other manufacturers be like Tesla? And I'm not, I'm not condemning that light of thinking. I'm just saying that Tesla now is just another auto manufacturer and it's got to be able to compete in the marketplace. And all of the other competitors have showrooms in every city, most cities that have a comp.
所以导致这次讨论的原因有很多。为什么其他制造商不能像特斯拉一样呢？我并不是在谴责这种想法。我只是说特斯拉现在只是另一个汽车制造商，它必须要在市场上竞争。而且其他竞争对手在几乎每个城市都有展厅，大多数城市都有竞争对手。
Well, I think they need to get creative now. I mean, I think their sales have grown pretty consistently for the last five, six, seven years. And I think it's now demarcated. We're entering a different point in the cycle. It's clear that demand across the board is cooling significantly. Tesla is not immune from that. And so I think that they're playing with lots of different strategies now. It seems lowering pricing, trying some advertising. I'd be curious to see what you're saying. If refreshed models comes into play and how that actually impacts demand, right? Because I'm sure they have some data. If we refresh a model, demand spikes, X amount or whatever. So that's interesting. I'm sure they're considering or they may take.
嗯，我认为他们现在需要有创意了。我的意思是，我认为他们的销售额在过去的五六七年里一直相当稳定增长。而现在我认为已经到了一个明显的分界点。毫无疑问，整个市场需求明显下降，特斯拉也无法幸免。所以我认为他们现在正在尝试各种不同的策略。似乎他们降低了价格，尝试一些广告。我很好奇听听你的看法。如果推出更新款车型，这会如何实际影响需求呢？因为我相信他们有一些数据。如果我们推出更新款车型，需求会增加X个百分点或其他什么。所以这很有意思。我确定他们正在考虑或可能采取一些行动。
Gee, how I'm encumbered. Here I am a lawyer talking about talk like an automotive manager, dealer or an OEM. You know, when it got to get you back into deals with business, then your blood, you know, you can't escape. You know, a lot of people say they in your lane, you're a lawyer, worry about the law at a market vehicles, but it goes, it goes hand in glove. The issue that we have to deal with. Do you get like does for GM with all these investments are making, does anything here give you like 2009 vibes, you know, any bankruptcies, any potential for that, anything concerning on the big picture?
哎呀，我有多么拖累啊。作为一名律师，我竟然在谈论起像汽车经理、经销商或原始设备制造商那样的对话。你知道，当涉及到与业务达成交易时，你血液中就有了这种感觉，你明白的，无法摆脱。很多人说，你应该专注于你的领域，你是一名律师，应该关注于市场上的车辆法律问题，但是这两个方面是紧密相连的。我们必须处理的问题就是这样。你对于通用汽车进行的所有这些投资，是否会对你造成类似于2009年的冲击感，你知道，是否会出现破产的可能性，对于整体形势是否有任何令人担忧的因素？
Well, I think the startups, you know, Lucid, I don't know about Rivian. I haven't really studied Rivian, but Lucid, I know, you know, if you ask me, you know, I just saw one on the way to work today. What a beautiful looking card is. Wouldn't mind buying one of those except that, you know, what I read is they've only sold like, I don't know, 1600, just guessing the low number nationally. You can't just stay in their operation. So they were doing at the auctions, I think like the brand new ones. This was like maybe eight, nine months ago. I remember they were doing like 40, 50% below MSRP. Like something crazy. I actually posted about it on Twitter. But yeah, they were taking some pretty big hits. I don't know what they're recently. I haven't seen any recently, but yeah, there's a answer.
嗯，我认为那些初创公司，你知道的，卢茨特（Lucid），之前我不了解Rivian。我并没有真正研究过Rivian，但是卢茨特，你知道，就我所知，你问我，你知道，我今天在上班路上看到了一辆。多么漂亮的一辆车啊，我不介意买一辆，只是，你知道，我所了解的是他们只卖出了大概，我猜的很低的数字，可能只有1600辆在全国范围内。你不能只停留在他们的经营活动上。所以他们之前在拍卖会上卖全新的车，大概是八九个月前。我记得他们的售价比建议零售价低了40%到50%，疯狂的事情。我实际上在推特上发布了这个消息。但是是的，他们遭受了一些相当大的打击。我不知道他们最近的情况。最近我没有看到任何报道，但是这就是答案。
You know, I do what I want to lease a car that's going to have like a zero residual value in three years or have no infrastructure to perform warranty work, at least if they had a dealer. This happened with the fisker, you know, at least at least dealer is one of those companies go out of business wants to keep their customers happy because they want to put them in another vehicle pair. They have an incentive to keep their customers happy. So yeah, will there be a bankruptcy? I don't want to talk in those terms with respect to Tesla. Not Tesla. Not Tesla. I'm saying I'm actually, I was thinking more of like the domestic's like Ford and GM with the investments they made on the eV side and the big proclamations.
你知道吗，我想要租一辆车，在三年内它的残值为零，或者没有能够进行保修工作的基础设施，至少如果他们有一家经销商的话。这在费斯克汽车公司发生过，你知道的，至少经销商是那些希望让客户满意并将他们置于另一辆车中的公司之一。他们有激励使客户满意。所以，嗯，会有破产吗？我不想用这些词来谈论特斯拉。不是特斯拉。不是特斯拉。我是说我实际上是在考虑像福特和通用这样的国内公司，他们对电动车方面的投资和大肆宣扬。
Well, keep in mind, there's a safety net. This business insider article talks about that. And that is that the legacy manufacturers have ice vehicles. So they can still satisfy and make a lot of money on selling, you know, F-150s and Chevy Sierra's and the regular internal combustion engine vehicles kind of soften the blow of the losses they've taken on the investment so far. So they have that safety net. So I don't really think we'd be seeing any insolvency or bankruptcy from any manufacturers as a result of EVs. They can cushion that. I worry more about the eV only. But, you know, interesting anecdote to this is, I don't know if you're familiar with Vin Fast, but that's a Vietnamese manufacturing company, EV vehicles. They're coming into the US, but they're looking to market their products through franchise dealers. I find that interesting because they've studied the market before they've, you know, watched this product and they've decided contrary to what the trend has been over the past 10 years now to go back to the franchise dealer system. I'd love to speak, you know, the CEO of that company and say, well, why are you going to depart from the trend, which is, you know, EVs come in and sell direct. So, you know, maybe I'm on the podcast. Yeah, I think that would be a great interview.
嗯，记住，有一个安全网。这篇《商业内幕》的文章谈到了这一点。事实上，传统汽车制造商仍然拥有内燃机车辆，所以他们仍然可以通过销售F-150和雪佛兰Sierra等常规内燃引擎车辆来获得很多利润，以缓解他们在电动汽车投资方面的损失。因此，我并不认为我们会看到由于电动汽车而导致的任何制造商的破产。他们可以减少风险。我更担心的是纯电动汽车。但是，有个有趣的事例是，我不知道你是否熟悉VinFast，它是一家越南制造商，生产电动汽车。他们要进入美国市场，但他们计划通过特许经销商来销售产品。我觉得这很有趣，因为他们在投放产品之前研究了市场，却决定与过去10年的趋势相悖，回到了特许经销商体系中。我很想和该公司的首席执行官交流，问问他为什么要偏离这一趋势，即电动汽车进入市场后直接销售。或许我可以在播客中采访他。是的，我认为那将是一个很棒的访谈。
What are the shifting gears for a second? What are the top concerns that you're hearing from dealers nowadays? Like, what are dealers concerned about in the market and why are they calling you? A lot of dealers, and this goes, gets a little bit away from, you know, relationship between the manufacturer and the dealer. There are always those issues. But more and more now dealers are being targeted by, you know, plaintiff's lawyers that are capitalizing on, you know, wage an hour, labor law type cases under payments, discrimination cases, employment discrimination. But wage an hour is a big area now. There are lawyers are fighting. There's a sweet spot there because they can recover attorney's fees if a dealer or any employer violates minimum wage requirements.
二、关于换挡，你有什么想法？你现在从经销商那里听到的最重要的关注点是什么？也就是说，经销商在市场上关心什么以及为什么会打电话给你？现在很多经销商遭到了一些原告律师的针对，他们利用加班工资、劳动法等案件以及不当支付、歧视案件、雇佣歧视案件等来获利。当然，制造商和经销商之间总会存在一些问题，这是无可避免的。但现在越来越多的经销商成为了目标。但加班工资是一个目前争议比较大的领域。律师们正在为此而奋斗。有一个最佳的机会，他们可以通过违反最低工资要求来追回律师费用，无论是经销商还是雇主。
And the problem comes up in the context primarily automobile salespeople who are paid commissions. And a lot of dealers aren't aware of the requirements, you know, just because someone sells 10 cars today, you feel all their cover. But if they don't deliver those cars in two weeks or three weeks, they're paying for that two week period, maybe below minimum wage. So you can't compensate for that by saying, yeah, but at the end of the month, he made far more than minimum wage taken to a commission. So dealers sometimes fall into the trap of not realizing that no matter how many deals a salesperson has, pending that the dealership needs to make sure that they're paying that employee at least minimum wage. Not to fall into that trap. So there are dealers who are paying close attention to that. They're being victimized. Or they're being the targets, I should say, of these plates, wage an hour firm. So that's a big area. So I would say like a lot of employment line.
在主要涉及汽车销售人员的背景下，问题主要出现在那些按佣金支付工资的人身上。很多经销商并不了解相关要求，你知道的，只是因为某人今天销售了10辆汽车，你就觉得他们已经覆盖了所有支出。但是如果他们在两周或三周内没有交付这些汽车，他们将在那两周内支付，可能低于最低工资。所以你不能通过说，是的，但是月底他的收入远远超过最低工资，来弥补这一点。因此，经销商有时会陷入陷阱，意识不到无论销售员有多少个交易还未完成，经销商都需要确保至少支付给该雇员最低工资。不要陷入这个陷阱。因此，有些经销商非常关注这一点。他们成为这些劳资法律公司的受害者、或者说是目标。所以这是一个很大的领域。我想说就像很多就业领域一样。
Are you seeing anything on the macro level like FTC stuff like that? Yeah. You know, the FTC has always got their eyes on dealership practices, you know, disclosures, truth and lending. A lot of the pitfalls that dealers can fall into under FTC guidelines are eliminated because more and more dealers are engaging third party services in compliance companies to make sure that they're providing all of the disclosures. So they're kind of outsourcing. They're not really as part of their DMS, you know, the dealer management software, where they are through the benefit of these companies that are really attuned to make sure that they're providing all of the disclosures. Through the benefit of these companies that are really attuned to making sure that they fall into these traps. The dealers are generally compliant, not because they're sitting down devising documents, but they're relying on third parties.
你在宏观级别上看到了FTC类似的东西吗？是的。你知道，FTC一直在关注经销商的做法，例如披露、真实贷款等。根据FTC的指南，许多经销商可能会陷入的陷阱在逐渐消除，因为越来越多的经销商选择与合规公司合作外包服务，以确保他们提供所有的披露。所以他们在外包。他们不是通过他们的DMS（经销商管理软件）这样的方式来做的，而是通过这些真正专注于确保他们提供所有披露的公司的好处来做到。这些公司确保他们不会陷入这些陷阱。经销商通常能够保持合规性，并不是因为他们自己去设计文件，而是依靠第三方公司。
These compliance companies integrate with their DMS. So all of the delivery documents and sales documents are compliant. Doesn't mean every one of them is doing that. The FTC looks, I think, more at advertising. So delivery documents, I think, for the most part are not a risk for dealers, but advertising. The typical thing is that dealers try and do to be different to guarantee something, you know, guarantee a minimum valuation on a trade-in or a reduced interest rate rate when it's only available to certain individuals who qualify, you know, military, personnel, first responders, but not disclose that it's not available to everyone. You would think that this day and age, you know, dealership general managers would be looking out for those type of problems, but yeah, the FTC, the state attorney general's consumer affairs departments, they're all looking at these advertisements. And a dealership is kind of like a trophy head, because when they now a dealership, only really what is notoriety and press release and it makes the attorney general, the FTC person look like they're really out there advocating for the consumers. And maybe they are on a sound, you know, critical of that, but I just know, having represented many, many dealers, you can make all of the customers whole and provide refunds or whatever the overcharge. The overcharge was or the damages were, it's very difficult to get the attorney general or whatever the regulatory agency is to agree to a confidentiality agreement, because they want to headline and want to say we got this dealer.
这些合规公司与他们的DMS集成。因此，所有的交付文档和销售文档都是符合要求的。并不是每一个公司都这样做。我认为FTC更注重广告。所以交付文件，我认为对于经销商来说，大部分并不构成风险，但是广告会。典型的情况是经销商尝试变得与众不同，保证某些事情，比如保证二手车最低评估价值或者降低利率，但只对某些符合条件的人才有此待遇，并未透露不是所有人都能享受到。在现如今，你会认为经销商总经理会对这类问题有所警惕，但是是的，FTC，州总检察长的消费事务部门，他们都在审查这些广告。而一家经销商就像是一个奖杯，因为当他们起诉一个经销商时，只有声名和新闻稿才能让总检察长，FTC人员看起来像是真正为消费者辩护。也许他们的目的是为了保护消费者，这是正当的批评，但是我知道，代表过许多经销商后，即使你能够补偿所有的顾客并退款，或者赔偿因为多收费造成的损失，要让总检察长或者其他监管机构同意签署保密协议是非常困难的，因为他们希望有头条新闻，想宣传说我们抓到了这家经销商。
So that's one of the, you know, that goes back to my small claims days back in the, in the 80s, you know, you had two strikes against you and a dealer was always, was always like, call a trophy. That hasn't changed. So dealers really need to be vigilant about making sure they comply with federal advertising requirements, as well as state, you know, attorney general, each state has their own nuances about what they are prohibited from doing. So you really need to engage a compliance firm to make sure that whether it's a firm or a third party compliance firm or through your state dealer association, find a resource, but don't fall victim to that because that could cost millions, some cases.
所以这就是我从80年代起进入小额索赔领域的一个例子，你知道的，你有两个劣势，并且经销商总是，总是像一个奖杯一样被召唤。这一点没有改变。所以经销商真的需要谨慎，确保他们遵守联邦广告要求，以及州的要求，你知道的，每个州对他们禁止做什么都有自己独特的规定。所以你真的需要与一家合规公司合作，确保你是否能够找到一个资源，无论是公司本身还是第三方合规公司，或者通过你所在州的经销商协会，但不要成为受害者，因为这可能会造成数百万的损失。
Speaking so, while we're on the topic of consumers, and you know, the thing that came to mind is throughout the last couple of years, I had a lot of people reaching out to me about, you know, can I return my lease? Can I buy it? Like what happens with it? Another question for you is from a league from where you're from your position. What are the most consumer friendly manufacturers, right?
所以，既然我们在谈论消费者的话题，我想到的是在过去几年里，有很多人联系我询问他们能否退还租赁物品，或者能否购买租赁物品，还有关于租赁物品的其他问题。另外一个关于消费者的问题是，从你所在的领域和职位来看，哪些制造商最注重顾客的利益呢？
If I lease a Honda versus a Chevy versus a BMW, or maybe I buy something, but, you know, what are the, what brands would you say you recommend or had to have the least amount of gotchas or catches in their documents and give you the most flexibility as a consumer?
如果我租用一辆本田汽车，与雪佛兰或宝马相比，或者也许我买一些东西，但是你知道的，你认为哪些品牌的汽车建议最少有猫腻或限制在他们的文件中，并给消费者最大的灵活性？
So the one that impressed me the most, first of general answer, there are very few manufacturers that I would consider onerous or consumer unfriendly. They're vying for market share. They all know what each other are doing. And it's the rare case that a manufacturer is trying to discourage consumers from continuing to stay loyal to their brand. So this is not like it used to be in the 60s and 70s, you know, where was it got? Environment.
所以最让我印象深刻的是，在一般回答方面，很少有制造商让我觉得负担重或不友好。他们都在争夺市场份额。他们都知道彼此在做什么。很少有制造商试图阻止消费者继续忠诚于他们的品牌。所以现在的情况不像60年代和70年代那样，你知道，是什么导致的？环境问题。
So by and large, all manufacturers are consumer friendly. The one I thought that stuck in my mind, and this is not even recent, is when Hyundai offered to basically forgive car loans if people got laid off. This is, this goes back to when, you know, the country was in a big recession and sales were lagging. This was even referenced in a recent article I mentioned that, you know, Hyundai was pretty creative and out front and try and swage the concerns that consumers had that if they got into a 36 month loan or a 48 month loan, what if I get laid off? Because, you know, so many companies were failing back that. And it was very creative and I thought addressed consumers concerns in a way that really did them a lot of good and placated a lot of consumers. So it doesn't mean they're, you know, any more consumer friendly than any other manufacturer. It just showed that they actually sat down and thought about how do they engage a consumer on a level that the consumer is confronting on a day to day basis.
总的来说，所有制造商都非常关心消费者。在我心中留下深刻印象的是现在都已经有一段时间了，就是当现代汽车公司提出，如果人们遭到裁员，他们基本上可以免去汽车贷款。这可以追溯到当时国家正处于一次大的经济衰退，销售也一直低迷。最近提到的一篇文章中也有相关提及，现代汽车公司非常有创意并且积极主动地努力缓解消费者对于遭到裁员后无法偿还36个月或者48个月车贷的担忧。因为当时很多公司都面临倒闭。这种做法非常有创意，我认为它以一种真正对消费者有益的方式解决了他们的顾虑，平息了很多消费者的不安情绪。这并不意味着他们比其他制造商更加关心消费者，但它表明他们确实坐下来思考了如何与消费者在日常生活中所面对的问题上进行互动。
What about like lease return restrictions or not from Hyundai, but I'm saying like, you know, you can't return to sleaze here, you can't buy it out. Sorry, not you can't render, you can't buy it out. Stuff like that. What are your thoughts on that?
关于像现代汽车这样的租赁退还限制，我的意思是，你知道的，你不能在这里归还，也不能买断。不好意思，不是不能退还，而是不能买断。诸如此类的事情。你对此有何想法？
I look, you know, my view is that the sooner should be able to return a general motor's lease than any general motor's dealer. There shouldn't be a $250 lease termination fee. I mean, these are things that manufacturers have decided a different way to recoup that. That revenue don't don't, you know, most consumers aren't reading their lease when their lease is over. So with Rivet, they're told they have to pay a $250 or $500 lease termination fee. What's the thinking there means they're definitely probably not going to buy or lease that same product, if you're leaving the consumer with a bad taste or, you know, they nickel and dime you on wear and tear. And you don't see that so much anymore, but that was a problem. I didn't give in time with a scraper and Nick or a scuff wind up costing a lot. Again, I don't see that. I mean, I'm not on the front lines there. I mean, that's where I kind of drew the line. I'm not really on lease return lanes by self. So I can't really speak to what really goes on there. But just as a consumer myself.
我觉得应该能够比一般汽车经销商更早地归还通用汽车的租赁车辆。不应该有250美元的租赁终止费用。我的意思是，这些都是制造商决定以不同方式收回这笔费用。当租赁期满时，大多数消费者并不会详细阅读他们的租赁合约。所以在Rivet（可能是一家汽车租赁公司）那里，他们被告知需要支付250美元或500美元的租赁终止费用。在此背景下，他们肯定不会购买或租赁同一款产品，因为这给消费者留下了不好的印象，或者说他们会为一些小问题向你收费。不过，现在已经不太常见了，但以前是一个问题。如果你没有及时清理刮痕或者擦伤，最后可能会花费很多钱。我没有直接面对这些问题，因此我不能详细说明那里的实际情况。但作为一个消费者，我有自己的观点。
I always found that those got your fees. Really would struggle with the handles back. So that's got to be a good words. I feel like we could go on forever, but we're going to, you know, I want to wrap up shortly. So, you know, a couple more, I think personal questions. You founded, you found the dealers versus cancer, which is, you know, I'll let you, I'll let you tell us about that, you know, kind of walk us what happened and why you founded this. Why you founded this nonprofit and just, you know, if you can even see background on that.
我总是觉得那些收费的人们真的很难处理那些问题。所以，这一定是一句好话。我感觉我们可以永远继续下去，但我们要结束了，你知道的，我想很快总结一下。所以，你知道的，还有几个我认为比较私人的问题。你创办了“车商对抗癌症”，你可以告诉我们一下发生了什么，以及为什么你创办了这个非营利组织吗？如果你可以给一个背景资料的话。
Well, that was, that was probably the lowest point in my life. 70 years ago, I was in this very office and I had an annual physical. And I just remember that week being really crazy. We had a lot of closings going on. It was just, this place was buzzing, you know, and my secretary said I have doctor, so and so on the phone wants to go over your results. And I said, I was like, so busy, please, to tell him I'll call him back.
嗯，那可能是我一生中最低谷的时刻了。70年前，我正处于这个办公室里完成年度体检。我记得那个星期特别疯狂，我们有很多交易要处理。整个地方都是热闹的，你懂的。然后我的秘书告诉我，我接到了某某医生的电话，想要与我讨论检查结果。我当时太忙了，所以请她告诉医生我会回电给他。
Then she came in and she goes, no, he really would like to speak to you now. That's pretty pushy. So I kind of said, hello, doctor. He goes, well, listen, I didn't want you to, I didn't want to leave a message because we have to talk about next steps. We got the results of your blood work and, you know, concerned about prostate cancer. So that kind of, for me for a loop. But what does that mean? He said, well, we got to do further testing. So make a long story short. I went in for about a month's worth of testing. It was really stressful because I knew they felt there was cancer there. They wouldn't come out and say it.
然后她进来了，她说，不，他现在真的想和你说话。这有点咄咄逼人。所以我说了声，你好，医生。他说，听着，我不想留言，因为我们必须谈谈下一步该怎么办。我们收到了你的血液检查结果，并且对前列腺癌感到担心。这对我来说是个冲击。但那是什么意思？他说，我们需要进行进一步的检查。长话短说，我进行了约一个月的检查。这真的很有压力，因为我知道他们觉得那里可能有癌症，却不愿明说。
And then in the course of this, I said, you know what, this has been a month now. You never get results right away. Go to with doctor. You know, you'll get a result next week. You're sitting there on pins and needles now that they've scared that Jesus out of you. I said, you know what, I'm, as I look out of my office window here, I can actually see the skyline of New York City. I said, I'm going to go to the very best cancer hospital probably in the world. I won't mention it, but I'm sure everybody knows.
然后在这个过程中，我说，你知道吗，已经一个月了。你永远不会立即得到结果。去看医生吧。你知道的，下周你会得到结果。现在他们把你吓坏了，你坐在那里紧张不安。我说，你知道吗，我从我的办公室窗户往外看，我能看到纽约市的天际线。我说，我要去可能是世界上最好的癌症医院，我不提它的名字，但我相信每个人都知道。
So I had to start from scratch because they don't take any test results from anybody else. And make a long story short. You know, they told me I had stage four metastatic cancer. There was nothing they could do and that I should start preparing, you know, for end of life. So obviously that was a very bad. And, you know, I'm still here, by the way, right? So I know, you know, this has a happy ending. This is seven years later. But I went through it was like being buried alive. I was told it was nothing that could be done.
所以我不得不从零开始，因为他们不接受其他人的任何测试结果。长话短说，他们告诉我我患有四期转移性癌症。他们无能为力，还告诉我要开始为生命结束做准备。显然，那是一个非常糟糕的消息。顺便说一句，我还在这里，对吧？所以我知道，这个故事结局是幸福的。现在已经是七年后了。但我经历的就像被活埋一样。他们告诉我已经无可救药。
I applied for an experimental cancer treatment. I went into the city. They made me wait three weeks to have a meeting with these specialists that were doing this clinical trial. And my wife was with me and I go in there thinking that maybe there's some hope here and they walked in. These two white coats and said, sorry, we looked at your case. There's nothing we can do. Well, wait a second. This is experimental. How can I not qualify for an experimental treatment? I said, are you telling me I'm so far gone? You don't want me to ruin your study? You know, I said, well, we wouldn't put it that bluntly. But, you know, yes, we don't think it can help you.
我申请了一种实验性的癌症治疗，前往了城市。他们让我等了三个星期才能与这些进行临床试验的专家进行一次会面。我的妻子陪伴了我，当我进入那里时以为可能会有一些希望，然而他们进来了。这两位穿着白大褂的人说道：“对不起，我们研究了你的病例，但我们无能为力。”嘿，等一下，这是实验性的。我怎么会不符合实验性治疗的资格呢？我说，你是在告诉我我已经到了无可救药的程度吗？你们不希望我破坏你们的研究？他们回答说：“我们没有那么直接地表达，但是是的，我们认为这对你没有帮助。”
So my wife, you know, I'm on the mouthpiece of the family because I'm a lawyer, right? My wife is kind of more refined than I am. She got up. She said, you know, my husband is a lawyer and I hear about his appeals. Isn't there some type of an appeal that could be done here? He feels fine. You're telling me he's so sick. He's not going to last too long. He'll start feeling pain through his body and he doesn't. I want an appeal. So the doctor said, look, if you don't get chemo immediately, meaning right now, go downstairs to the second floor, I'll never forget. I don't know that we can keep you going too much longer.
所以我的妻子，你知道，我在家里是嘴巴上的人，因为我是个律师，对吧？我的妻子比我要更有教养。她站起来说，你知道，我丈夫是个律师，我听说过他的上诉。难道这里没有其他的上诉方式吗？他感觉很好，你告诉我他病得很重。他不会撑太久的，他会开始全身疼痛，但他并没有。我要上诉。于是医生说，你看，如果你不立即接受化疗，就是现在，去楼下的二楼，我永远不会忘记这句话。我不知道我们还能维持你多久。
My wife made this plea and he said, all right, I'll look into this and we'll get back to you as soon as possible, but you need to be here on Monday. So Friday, I'm sitting here in my office and I get this call that I'll never forget. And I had a cell phone. I picked it up. He said, listen, this is Dr. Schlewensau because you don't know me, but I'm the head on colleges at this internationally known because I'm the number one doctor here and I'm looking over your case and I want to tell you your wife saved your life. What are you talking?
我妻子提出了请求，他说：“好的，我会调查一下，我们会尽快答复你，但你需要在周一来这里。”于是，周五，我坐在办公室里接到了一个我永远不会忘记的电话。我当时有一部手机，我接起来。他说：“听着，我是斯勒文索医生，因为你不认识我，但我是这个享有国际声誉的机构的负责人，我也是这里的头号医生，我正在审视你的病例，我想告诉你，是你妻子拯救了你的生命。”你在说什么？
He said, I'm delighted to make this call, but I'm also horrified to tell you that we made a horrific mistake and that you don't have metastatic stage four cancer. All I can recall was putting my, I had the cell phone here and I put my hair that my head said five times. Oh my God. Oh my God. How did this have happened? They said, well, someone made a mistake. And what they really saw throughout your body was something called sarkoidosis, which is a benign process, which happens when your body is I did have prostate cancer, but it was treatable. It didn't spread. So they said they were able to treat it. I'm fine now, but during that two to three month period, it was like I said, being buried alive and I owe it to my wife who requested this appeal because they were about the semi downstairs for chemo.
他说：“我很高兴给你打这个电话，但同时也很震惊地告诉你，我们犯了一个可怕的错误，你并没有四期转移性癌症。我只能回忆到的是，我把手机放在这里，用手摸了下我的头发，头说了五遍‘哦，我的天哪。哦，我的天哪。’这到底怎么会发生呢？”他们说：“有人犯了个错误。你身体里真正发现的是一种叫做肺结节病的良性过程，这是机体发生的一种现象。我确实患有前列腺癌，但可治疗，且未扩散。所以他们说能够治疗好。我现在身体没有问题了，但在那两三个月的时间里，我感觉就像被活埋了一样。我要感谢我的妻子，因为她坚持要求进行上诉，否则他们就要开始给我楼下化疗了。”
For cancer, I didn't have, which would have been, you know, nail in the coffin. Literally. So anyway, having gone through that experience, the worst part of it, by the way, was telling my children. This was going on even worse than the diagnosis. But somehow, miraculously, you know, I escaped, you know, this death penalty.
对于癌症来说，幸运的是我并没有得上，那真的会是致命一击。然后呢，经历这个过程的最糟糕的部分，顺便提一下，是告诉我的孩子们。这一切比诊断结果更加糟糕。但是不知怎的，奇迹般地，我逃过了这个死刑。
Automotive news read a full page article. It said the wrongful termination lawyer wins his own wrongful termination case. And it got a lot of notoriety. I thought from that, I said, you know what, this must have happened for a reason that I was spared. You know, I have a lot of relationships in the automotive industry. And I thought, well, I was spared for a reason. It's probably because I have a good reach. I know a lot of dealers. I know a lot of factory people. I know a lot of people that are in the realm service dealers and manufacturers. I said, I'm going to start this organization called dealers versus cancer.
汽车新闻读了一篇整版报道。报道说，一名以解雇不当为职业的律师胜诉了他自己的解雇不当案件。这引起了很多轰动。我想从中我得出了这样的想法，你知道吗，我被幸免可能是有原因的。我在汽车行业有很多人际关系。我认为，我之所以被幸免，可能是因为我有很好的影响力。我认识很多经销商、很多工厂人员、很多与服务经销商和制造商相关的人。于是我决定创办一个名为"商家对抗癌症"的组织。
Part of it was to run a, I like classic cars, old Buicks from my old car jockey days. And part of the, so the fundraising event would be centered around this cruising for a cure, cruising for a cure classic car show. And then what I would do is on the day of the car show, I would ask every dealer that was interested to reach out to me if they could give us $20 for every car they sell on the day of the car show. And we raised a lot of money, maybe, you know, $30,000 the first year kept going up. And I sent it out to the prostate cancer foundation in California.
其中一部分是为了开展我喜欢的经典车型运行，旧的别克，源自我作为汽车驯马师的日子。而另一部分，则是为了使筹款活动围绕“为治愈而巡航”的主题展开，组织一场经典车展。然后，在车展当天，我会要求每一个感兴趣的经销商在当天为我们每卖出一辆车捐出20美元。我们筹集了很多钱，第一年大概有30,000美元，之后逐年增长。然后我将这笔款项寄给加利福尼亚的前列腺癌基金会。
So here I went from, you know, thinking my days were numbered to actually doing something good. And so I've been, you know, keeping that up. It's been seven years. I'm in great health. But every time I, you know, sometimes I just sit here and stare out the window and wonder how that happened. What it means, you know, I don't get upset anymore. I don't, you know, money doesn't upset. I don't blame you. Office happens to blame you. You know, I remember those days when I was, you know, rolled up into a ball at home, you know, and I had to kind of like fake my way through the office because I wasn't believing happening. I didn't tell anybody in my law firm and I'm faking it committing fraud on my own firm because I was afraid that if I told them the truth, they would all leave and worried about my dealer clients.
在这里，我曾经认为我的日子不多了，但实际上我做了一些有益的事情。所以我一直在坚持下去，已经七年了，健康状况很好。但每次我坐在这里望着窗外，我就会想，这是怎么发生的呢？那意味着什么呢，你知道的，我不再生气了。钱也不再让我心烦了。不怪你，办公室把一切都怪到你头上。我还记得那些时候，我蜷缩在家里，不得不在办公室里虚伪地面对一切，因为我不相信这一切发生了。我没有告诉我的律师事务所任何事情，我在对自己的公司进行欺诈，因为我害怕告诉他们真相后，他们会离开，我也担心我的毒贩客户。
And I went to the president of the bar association and I said, listen, I have thousand dealer clients. I'm handling cases for all of them. My doctors told me I said, I got to find another law. You help me find lawyers for these cases. And then, you know, two days later, I got this phone call and I called them up and I said, you know what? Never mind. I don't need any. Never mind. But I went psycho. So, we're glad to have you with us. And what a crazy story. So that's unbelievable. I learned a lot. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but there's something to be said. The silver lighting is everyday matters and whatever is plaguing you from a business point of view or relationship. It's not, you know, it's not, it's not a lot of life and health and happiness. And, you know, that's all that really matters.
然后我去找了律师协会的会长，告诉他我有数以千计的经销商客户，我负责处理他们的案子。我的医生告诉我，我必须找其他的法律方式解决问题。你能帮我找到律师处理这些案件吗？然后，你知道的，两天后，我接到了一个电话，我给他们打了电话，说你知道吗？算了吧，我不需要了。但我疯了。所以，我们很高兴你能和我们在一起。真是个疯狂的故事。难以置信。我学到了很多。我不会希望这样的事情发生在我最坏的敌人身上，但有一点可以说的是，每天的事情都很重要，无论是来自商务角度还是人际关系。这些都不是真正重要的东西，真正重要的是生命、健康和幸福。
So even someone like a trial lawyer can actually have learned a lesson. You know, we get, you know, that was, that was a lesson that I'll never forget. And everybody should hopefully learn from it. You don't have it as bad.
所以即使是像审判律师这样的人，实际上也可能学到教训。你知道，我们知道，那是一课我永远不会忘记的。希望每个人都能从中学到教训。你的情况并不糟糕。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Incredible story line. Before we wrap up, any, how can the audience get in touch with you if anyone wants to reach out to you?
令人难以置信的故事情节。在我们结束之前，如有任何人希望与您联系，观众该如何与您取得联系呢？
Yeah. Well, our website, you know, this is one of the, one of the few advantages of being a little older. When I had to select the website, I didn't have a lot of competition. So I got dealerlaw.com. You can either reach me at info at dealerlaw.com or my first initial last name, L. Bolivia. B-E-L-L-A-V-I-A at dealerlaw.com.
是的。嗯，我们的网站，你知道，这是年龄稍微大一点的人的少数几个优势之一。当我选择网站时，并没有太多的竞争。所以我申请到了dealerlaw.com。你可以通过info@dealerlaw.com或者我的名字的首字母加姓氏L.Bolivia@dealerlaw.com来联系我。
Lain de lavia. Thanks for coming on the pod. This was really, really awesome. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. All right.
Lain de lavia. 感谢你来到这个录音节目。这真的太棒了！非常感谢你。我很喜欢这次访谈。谢谢你邀请我。好了。
Hope you enjoyed that episode. Please give the podcast a rating. Consider subscribing to the show and check the show notes for links to what we talked about. Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you guys next time. Bye.
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