Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett: How to Understand Emotions | Huberman Lab Podcast
发布时间 2023-10-16 12:00:20 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett is a distinguished professor of psychology at Northeastern University. She also holds appointments at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital, where she is the chief scientific officer of the Center of Law, Brain and Behavior. Dr. Barrett is considered one of the top world experts in the study of emotions. And her laboratory has studied emotions using approaches both from the fields of psychology and neuroscience. Indeed today you will learn about the neural circuits and the psychological underpinnings of what we call emotions. You will learn what emotions truly are and how to interpret different emotional states. You will also learn how emotions relate to things like motivation, consciousness and affect. Affect is a term that refers to a more general state of brain and body that increases or decreases the probability that you will experience certain emotions.
欢迎来到Huberman实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和科学为日常生活提供的工具。我是Andrew Huberman，是斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Lisa Feldman Barrett博士。Lisa Feldman Barrett博士是东北大学心理学杰出教授，同时也在哈佛医学院和马萨诸塞州普通医院任职，在那里担任法律、大脑和行为中心的首席科学官。Barrett博士被认为是世界顶尖的情绪研究专家之一。她的实验室使用心理学和神经科学领域的方法研究情绪。今天您将了解我们所称的情绪的神经回路和心理基础。您将学习到情绪到底是什么，以及如何解读不同的情绪状态。您还将了解情绪与动机、意识和情感等事物之间的关系。情感是一个术语，指的是增加或减少您经历特定情绪的概率的大脑和身体的更一般状态。
During today's discussion Dr. Feldman Barrett also teaches us how to regulate our emotions effectively as well as how to better interpret the emotional states of others. You will also learn about the powerful relationship that exists between our emotional states and the movement of our body. In fact much of today's discussion is both practical and will be highly informative in terms of the mechanisms underlying emotions. And it is likely to also be surprising to you in a number of ways. It certainly was surprising to me. I've been a close follower of Dr. Feldman Barrett's work over many years now and have always founded the tremendously informative. And when I say her work I mean both her academic published papers as well as her public lectures that she's given and her two fabulous books on emotions in the brain. The first one entitled How Emotions Are Made and the second book which includes information about emotions but extends beyond that entitled seven and half lessons about the brain.
在今天的讨论中，Feldman博士还教给我们如何有效调节情绪，以及如何更好地解释他人的情绪状态。你还将了解到我们的情绪状态与身体运动之间存在的强大关系。事实上，今天的讨论在情绪机制方面既有实用性，也具有高度信息性。它也很可能会以多种方式让你感到惊讶。对我来说确实是令人惊讶的。多年来，我一直是Feldman博士工作的忠实追随者，并始终发现她的工作具有极大的信息量。当我说她的工作时，我指的是她的学术论文以及她发表的公开讲座，还有她写的两本有关大脑情绪的优秀书籍。第一本书名为《情绪是如何产生的》，第二本书包含有关情绪信息，但超越了情绪，名为《大脑的七个半课》。
As you'll see from today's discussion Dr. Feldman Barrett is not only extremely informed about the neuroscience and psychology of emotions. She's also fabulously good at teaching us that information in clear terms and in actionable ways. You'll also notice several times she pushes back on my questions. In some cases even telling me that my questions are ill posed and I have to tell you that I was absolutely delighted that she did that because you'll see that every time she did that it was with a clear purpose of putting more specificity on the question and thereby more specificity and clarity on the answer, which of course she delivers. By the end of today's discussion you will have both a broad and a deep understanding of what emotions are and their origins in our brain and body. You will also have many practical tools with which to better understand and navigate emotional states. And moreover you'll have many practical tools in order to increase your levels of motivation and better understand your various states of consciousness.
从今天的讨论中，您会发现Feldman博士不仅对情绪的神经科学和心理学有深入的了解，而且在清晰易懂和可操作的方式下教给我们这些知识。您也会注意到她多次对我的问题提出异议。在某些情况下甚至告诉我，我的问题提出得不够准确。我必须告诉您，她这样做让我非常高兴，因为您会发现，每当她这样做时，都是为了更准确定义问题，从而使回答更具体和清晰，这也是她所能做到的。在今天的讨论结束时，您将对情绪及其在我们大脑和身体中的起源有广泛和深入的理解。您还将学会许多实用工具，以更好地理解和应对情绪状态。此外，您还将掌握许多实用工具，以提高您的动力水平，并更好地了解您各种不同的意识状态。
Before we begin I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. This is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Ate Sleep. Ate Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating and sleep tracking capacity. I spoke in many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health and performance. The key thing to getting a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. That's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep your body temperature has to drop by one to three degrees. In order to wake up in the morning feeling refreshed your body temperature actually has to increase by one to three degrees.
在我们开始之前，我想强调一点，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是分开的。然而，这是我想要努力为大众提供关于科学和科学相关工具零成本信息的一部分。为了贯彻这一主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Ate Sleep。Ate Sleep制造智能床垫套，具有冷却、加热和睡眠追踪功能。我曾在这个播客中多次谈到睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基石。获得良好睡眠的关键是控制睡眠环境的温度。这是因为为了入睡和保持深度睡眠，您的体温必须下降一至三度。为了早上感觉精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须增加一至三度。
With eight sleep it's very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. It's a mattress cover that allows you to control the temperature of your sleeping environment at the beginning, middle and end of your night. Doing so allow you to fall and stay deeply asleep throughout the night and wake up feeling extremely refreshed. I started sleeping on an eight sleep mattress cover well over two years ago and it has greatly improved the quality of my sleep. If you'd like to try Ate Sleep you can go to AteSleep.com slash Huberman to save up to $150 off their pod three cover. Ate Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK select countries in the EU and Australia. Again that's AteSleep.com slash Huberman.
用Eight Sleep，控制睡眠环境温度非常容易。这是一款床垫套，可以让您在夜晚的开始、中间和结束时控制睡眠环境的温度。这样做可以让您整夜入睡并保持深度睡眠，醒来感觉非常清爽。我两年多前开始使用Eight Sleep床垫套，大大提高了我的睡眠质量。如果您想尝试Eight Sleep，可以前往AteSleep.com/Huberman，节省高达150美元购买他们的三代床垫套。Eight Sleep目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟某些国家和澳大利亚发货。再次强调，网址是AteSleep.com/Huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and behaviors affect your health by giving you real time feedback using a continuous glucose monitor. One of the most important factors impacting your immediate and long-term health is the way that your body manages its blood glucose or sometimes referred to as blood sugar levels. To maintain energy and focus throughout the day you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or dips. Using levels you can monitor how different types of foods and different food combinations as well as food timing and things like exercise combined to impact your blood glucose levels.
今天的节目也由Levels赞助。Levels是一个让你通过使用连续血糖监测仪实时获得反馈，了解不同食物和行为对健康的影响的计划。影响你即时和长期健康最重要的因素之一是你的身体如何管理血糖，有时也称为血糖水平。为了保持一天中的精力和专注力，你希望使血糖保持稳定，避免出现大幅度波动。使用Levels，你可以监测不同类型的食物、不同食物组合以及食物的时间安排以及诸如锻炼之类的因素如何共同影响你的血糖水平。
I started using levels a little over a year ago and it gave me a lot of insight into how specific foods were spiking my blood sugar and then leaving me feeling tired for several hours afterwards as well as how the spacing of exercise and my meals was impacting my overall energy. And in doing so it really allowed me to optimize how I eat, what I eat, when I exercise and so on such that my blood glucose levels and energy levels are stable throughout the day. If you're interested in learning more about levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself go to levels.link slash Huberman. Right now levels is offering an additional two free months of membership. Again that's levels.link L-I-N-K slash Huberman to get two free months of membership.
我大约一年多前开始使用levels，它让我深刻认识到某些特定食物是如何导致我的血糖飙升，然后让我感觉疲倦数个小时，以及锻炼和用餐时间的安排如何影响我的整体能量。通过这样做，它真正让我优化了我的饮食方式、食物选择、锻炼时间等，使得我的血糖水平和能量水平在一天中保持稳定。如果您有兴趣了解更多关于levels，并尝试使用连续血糖监测仪，请访问levels.link/Huberman。现在levels提供额外两个免费月的会员资格。再次强调，levels.link/Huberman可以获得两个免费月的会员资格。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. Welcome. Oh it's my pleasure to be here. I've wanted to talk to you for a very long time. I'd like to talk about emotions. I think everyone has a sense somehow of what an emotion is. Feeling happy, feeling sad, feeling excited, feeling curious, perhaps. Is even emotion. I don't know. You'll tell us. What are the core components? What are the sort of macronutrients of an emotion? Because I know there's a debate about whether or not we should be talking about emotions versus states. But what is an emotion? We all are familiar with what one feels like to us but from a scientific perspective how do you define an emotion?
现在让我们开始和Lisa Feldman Barrett博士的讨论。Lisa Feldman Barrett博士，欢迎。哦，我很荣幸能在这里。我很久以来都想和您谈谈。我想谈一下情绪。我认为每个人都在某种程度上知道什么是情绪。感到快乐、感到悲伤、感到兴奋、感到好奇，也许是情绪的一部分。我不清楚。您会告诉我们的。情绪的核心组成是什么？情绪的主要成分是什么？因为我知道有争议是否应该讨论情绪与状态。但是，情绪到底是什么？我们都知道我们是如何感受到它的，但从科学的角度来看，您如何定义情绪？
Well this is a scientist's debate about this. Nobody in the last 150 years has ever been able to agree on what an emotion is. And I think from my perspective the interesting but tricky bit is that any time you want to talk about what the basic building blocks are of emotion none of those basic building blocks are specific to emotion. So for example there are a group of scientists who will tell you well and emotion is a coordinated response where you have a change in some physical state, a change in the brain, a change in the physical state which leads you to make a particular facial expression. So you've got physiological changes in the body, changes in the brain, changes in the face or in motor movements. But that describes basically every moment of your life. Your face is always moving in some way. If it wasn't you would look like an avatar basically. So we're constantly engaged in movements and those movements have to be coordinated with the physiological changes in the body because whether we're in a state that we would conventionally call emotion or not because the physiology is supporting those. It's supporting the glucose and the oxygen and all the things that you need to make movements of your body.
这是一个科学家们对此进行辩论的问题。在过去的150年里，没有人能够就情绪是什么达成一致。从我的角度来看，有趣但也有挑战的一点是，每当你想要谈论情绪的基本构建单元时，这些基本构建单元都不是特定于情绪的。例如，有一群科学家会告诉你，情绪是一种协调反应，其中你的一些生理状态发生变化，大脑发生变化，身体状态发生变化，从而导致你做出特定的面部表情。因此，你的身体会发生生理变化，大脑会发生变化，面部或运动会发生变化。但这基本上描述了你生活中的每一个时刻。你的脸总是以某种方式移动的。如果不是，你基本上会看起来像一个虚拟形象。因此，我们不断参与运动，这些运动必须与身体的生理变化协调一致，因为无论我们是否处于通常称之为情绪的状态，生理学都在支持着这些变化。它支持着葡萄糖、氧气和你需要让身体运动的所有东西。
And of course all these movements are being coordinated by your brain. So of course there's a coordinated set of features that doesn't really describe how emotions are distinct from any other experience that you have. But the claim was for a really long time that there would be diagnostic patterns. So when something triggered fear you would have an increase in heart rate and you would have a propensity to run away or to freeze or not just to fall asleep although that is something animals do when they are faced with a predator. But that's not part of the Western stereotype for fear. So that wasn't what scientists were looking for.
当然，所有这些动作都是由您的大脑协调的。当然，有一套协调一致的特征，并不真正描述情绪与您所经历的任何其他体验有何不同。但很长一段时间以来，人们声称会存在诊断模式。因此，当某种事物触发恐惧时，您的心率会增加，并且您会倾向于逃跑或者僵住，而不只是睡觉，尽管这是面对捕食者时动物会做的事情。但这并不是恐惧的西方刻板印象的一部分。因此，这并不是科学家所寻找的内容。
And also that you would make a particular facial expression which was presumed to be the universal expression of fear where you widen your eyes and you gasp like that. Set of facial movements in other cultures like in Melanesian culture for example is a symbol of threat where you are threatening someone. You are threatening them with aggression basically is a warface. But in Western cultures that's the face that Western scientists believed was the distinctive part of that distinctive pattern for fear. And so the way that scientists defined emotion for a long time was these kind of states where you'd see this diagnostic ensemble of signals.
而且你也会摆出一种特定的面部表情，被认为是害怕的普遍表情，你会睁大眼睛然后像这样喘气。在其他文化中，比如美拉尼西亚文化中，一组面部动作是威胁的象征，你在威胁某人。基本上是一种战斗的表情。但在西方文化中，西方科学家相信这种面部 expression 是害怕的特征部分。所以科学家长期以来定义情绪的方式是基于这种诊断性信号集合检测到的状态。
And that would mean that anytime someone showed one of those signals they may move their face in a particular way or their heart increased at a particular time you'd be able to diagnose them as being in a state of fear as opposed to a state of anger or sadness or whatever. The empirical evidence just doesn't bear that out. And so it was kind of a mystery. The mystery is how is it that you feel angry or sad or happy or you know full of gratitude or awe. How is it that you experience these moments but scientists can't find a single set of physical markers that correspond with each state distinctively right that in a way that you could tell them apart. That's a that was a really big puzzle for a really long time.
这意味着每当有人显示这些信号时，他们可能会以特定的方式移动他们的脸，或者在特定时间心跳加快，你可以将他们诊断为 处于恐惧状态，而不是愤怒或悲伤状态。实证证据并不支持这一点。所以这有点神秘。神秘之处在于，为什么你感到愤怒、悲伤、快乐，或者充满感激或敬畏呢？你如何体验这些时刻，而科学家却找不到一组能够清晰区分这些状态的物理标记？这是一个长期存在的巨大谜题。
I have to ask you about this perhaps myth, perhaps truth about facial expressions and emotions. Because as you were explaining the core components of emotions. I had to think back to the classic textbook images of the different faces associated with fear with delight with confusion. We will get to that in your opinions on that scientifically informed opinions of course. But there is a bit of a myth that the emotion system and the facial expression system run in both directions. For instance, people will say if you smile, it's harder to feel sad or anxious.
我必须问你关于这个或许是神话，或许是真实的关于面部表情和情绪的问题。因为当你解释情绪的核心组成部分时，我不得不回想起与恐惧、愉悦和困惑相关的不同面孔的经典教科书图像。我们将在你对此的观点上深入探讨，当然会有科学的支持。但有一个关于情绪系统和面部表情系统双向运作的神话。比如，人们会说如果你微笑，就会更难感到悲伤或焦虑。
I can't say that's been my experience but I very well could be wrong. So we know that when people's emotional states change their facial expressions often will change. Right. If you see someone crying on the street versus somebody smiling really big. We can make some assumptions about what might be going on internally for them. But put simply is it true that changing one's facial expression can direct shifts in the brain and body. Perhaps that change our emotional states.
我不能说这是我的经历，但我很有可能是错的。所以我们知道，当人们的情绪状态发生变化时，他们的面部表情通常也会改变。对。如果你看到有人在街上哭泣，相对于有人面带微笑。我们可以对他们内心可能发生的事情做出一些假设。但简单地说，改变面部表情是否能够引导大脑和身体的转变呢？也许这会改变我们的情绪状态。
If you'll permit me what I would say is that your question is ill posed. So first of all, it presumes that there's an emotion system. And that there's a facial expression system. Now clearly there's a system for moving facial muscles. But a movement is not the same as an expression. A movement is a movement. An expression is an interpretation of the meaning of a movement. Not all movements of the face are expressions.
如果您允许我说，我想说的是，您的问题提出得不恰当。首先，它假定存在一个情绪系统。以及一个面部表情系统。显然，有一个系统用于移动面部肌肉。但是一个运动并不等同于一种表情。一个运动只是一个运动。而表情是对运动意义的解释。并非所有的面部运动都是表情。
And this is a problem. It's a problem in science. It's often the case, I think, in my experience in the science of emotion but elsewhere too, that scientists in their efforts to make their work meaningful to people will try to interpret their findings in ways that the average person would find interesting or the way that a physician would find interesting or a teacher or what have you to be able to use this information. But then they forget that they're actually making an interpretation and they start to refer to their observations with the labels of interpretation.
这是一个问题。在科学领域是一个问题。我认为，在情绪科学以及其他领域，科学家们为了让他们的研究对人们有意义，往往会尝试用一种普通人会感兴趣，医生或教师等能够应用这些信息的方式来解释他们的发现。但是他们忘记了他们实际上是在进行解释，开始用解释的标签来指代他们的观察结果。
So facial movements are facial movements. People move their faces and that those movements have meaning. But they're not always to express an internal state. In fact, one might think that they're very rarely to express an internal state. So I don't know that there's a facial expression system either. So that's, there's certainly, like I said, there's circuitry for moving a face. But what those movements mean is highly variable. And so that would be my second point where I would say when you see someone crying on the street, you are not looking only at their face. You might be aware that you're focusing on their face. That might be the part of the entire sensory ensemble that you are focusing your attention on. But your brain is taking in an entire ensemble of signals.
所以面部运动就是面部运动。人们移动他们的脸，这些动作有意义。但它们并不总是为了表达内在状态。事实上，人们很少用它们来表达内在状态。所以我不知道是否有一种面部表情系统。当然，正如我所说的，有针对移动脸部的电路。但这些动作的含义是高度可变的。这就是我的第二点，当你看到有人在街上哭泣时，你并不只是看他们的脸。你可能意识到你正在关注他们的脸。这可能是你将注意力集中的整个感官集合的一部分。但你的大脑正在接受整个信号集合。
So it's taking in not just the movements of the face, the tears or whatever. It's taking in all of the entire sensory array, the sounds, the smells, what's going on inside your own body. Your brain is being bombarded with signals from all of those sources. And when it's making a meaning out of any signal, it's doing it in an ensemble of signals. So research shows that babies' cries aren't acoustically specific to when they're tired or hungry or right. You can, I can show you a video without context and show you someone crying. And you might make a judgment, you might think, make the stereotypical judgment in the West. Oh, that person is sad. And then we pan out and really, you know, it's a little girl whose dad just came home from Iraq or something, right? So brains are always interpreting faces in context. They're making guesses. This is something that I've talked about quite a bit, that we don't read movements in people. We don't read emotions in facial expressions. We make inferences about the emotional meaning of facial movements. And we do it in an ensemble of other signals, the context, as you, if you will. And that's really what's happening.
因此，大脑不仅仅是对面部表情、眼泪或其他东西进行感知。它同时感知整个感官数组，包括声音、气味，以及自身体内发生的事情。你的大脑受到来自所有这些来源的信号的轰炸。当大脑从任何信号中解读意义时，它是在一个信号集合里进行的。研究表明，婴儿的哭声并不具有特定的音频信号来表明他们是困倦、饥饿还是其他情感状态。你可以看一个视频，没有任何上下文，只看到有人在哭泣。你可能会做出评判，可能会根据西方的刻板印象认为：“那个人很伤心。”但实际上，当画面扩大后，你会发现这是一个刚刚从伊拉克回来的爸爸看到他女儿后的场景。大脑总是在解释面部表情时考虑整个背景。它做出猜测。我已经谈论过这一点，我们不是直接解读他人的动作，也不是直接从面部表情中读取情感。我们是根据面部运动的情感含义做出推断。而且我们会在其它信号的集合中进行，也就是所谓的上下文。这才是真正发生的事情。
So do I think that there's feedback from the face to the brain? Sure. I mean, there's feedback from every muscle, but there's this constant conversation between the brain and the body. The brain is sending motor commands. The body is, you know, has sensory surfaces, which are sending signals back to the brain. So if the face is influencing the brain, it's doing so in a way that's not special. It's doing it in a way that works for all other parts of your body too. And I guess what I would say, this kind of a long winded answer, but over time, your brain has learned that certain patterns of signal over time. Recur. And so if you're smiling, if your brain is, you know, telling your facial muscles to move in a particular way that looks like smiling. It's happening in a larger ensemble of signals. And then the brain is predicting what's going to happen next because it's learned over time. What happens next? So, probabilistically.
我认为脸部到大脑有反馈吗？当然有。我的意思是，每块肌肉都有反馈，但大脑和身体之间有着持续的对话。大脑发送运动指令，身体有感觉表面，向大脑发送信号。所以，如果脸部影响大脑，它并没有特别的方式，它做的是所有其他身体部位同样有效的方式。我想说的是，时机很宽松，你的大脑在长时间内学会了一些信号的模式。当这些模式重复出现时，大脑可以预测接下来会发生什么，因为它已经习惯了这种情况。所以，就概率而言。
So, if you think about that as cause, then sure. But it's not a, it's not this simplistic kind of idea that an emotion is triggered. It causes facial muscles to move in a particular way. And therefore, if you just pose your face in, in those, in that particular arrangement, that will somehow feedback to the emotion system and change that system because there are no, there is no emotion system in your brain. And the, the causation just isn't that, it's not that simplistically mechanistic. That makes sense to me.
因此，如果你认为情绪是引起因素，那当然。但这不是一种简单的想法，认为情绪是被触发的。它会导致面部肌肉以特定方式运动。因此，如果你只是摆出那种特定的脸部表情，那将在某种程度上反馈到情绪系统，并改变该系统，因为你的大脑里没有情绪系统。因果关系并不那么简单机械化。这对我来说是有意义的。
I, I frankly never bought the idea that just smiling would make me feel happy, especially if my internal state was not one of happiness, like fighting the internal state. Also, in the early 2000s, I think it was, there was a lot of discussion about how positioning the body in certain ways, you know, taking up more space would allow people to feel more powerful. And they, some of these studies, and argued that there were even hormonal shifts associated with taking up more space that were associated with feelings of empowerment. And then when shrinking of oneself was associated with elevated cortisol states, and as I say all this, I want to be clear that I do not take a simplistic view of the nervous system or endocrine system. And I didn't, I don't think you were implying that either.
我，老实说，从未认同只是微笑就能让我感到快乐这个观念，尤其是当我的内心状态并不快乐时，就像在与内心状态作斗争。此外，在2000年代初，好像有很多关于如何以某种方式摆放身体，比如占据更多空间，可以让人感到更有力量的讨论。一些研究甚至主张，占据更多空间会引起荷尔蒙水平变化，与赋予人力量感觉相关。而缩小自己与升高皮质醇水平有关，当我说这些时，我想要明确表示，我并不简单地看待神经系统或内分泌系统。我认为你也并不是这样暗示。
So I want to make sure that anyone listening and watching isn't thinking that, for instance, that cortisol is bad. Cortisol is wonderful and essential. You just need to regulate it properly. Or that the idea that the body and emotional states are, are an extricable link to makes a ton of sense to me. But the idea that you could just, you know, grab onto one of the nodes in the, now I have to be careful not say motion system, like position of the body, like being hunched over makes you depressed. No, that never made sense to me. Taking up more space makes you feel more powerful. That doesn't, it can't be that way. And yet we were told for about a decade through, especially through popular press, that this stuff was true. And so what I love about your work is that it includes a neuro anatomical, psychological, a network perspective that there isn't one seat of emotions and so on.
因此，我想确保任何听众和观众不会认为，例如，皮质醇是坏的。皮质醇是很棒的，也是必不可少的。你只需要正确地调节它。身体和情绪状态是彼此紧密相连的想法对我来说很有意义。但是，我不认同只需抓住身体节点之一，比如，现在我得小心说不要说运动系统，像身体的姿势，比如弯腰会让你感到沮丧。不，这对我来说从来没有道理。占据更多空间会让你感觉更有力量。这样是不可能的。然而，大约十年来，特别是通过大众媒体，我们被告知这些都是真实的。所以我喜欢你的作品的原因是，它包含了神经解剖学、心理学和网络视角，情绪并不是一个独立的中心，等等。
So if we could go a little bit further into the facial expression piece for a moment. Sure. I was taught in my psychology and neuroscience textbooks, because it was right there in front of me, that there were some core categories of facial expression that were universal cross cultures that conveyed something about the internal state of the person. That the downward, you know, lips in the corner and some, and maybe even a furrowing of the brow was associated with negative valent states like sadness, perhaps even depression, that the opposite of upward turn corners of the mouth and widening of the eyes was delight and excitement. Some of that feels pretty true to my experience, but how do you and other serious scientists of emotions view that somewhat classic literature now? Yeah, so I'll just say that my journey here, my scientific journey was not one of attempting to overturn a century's worth of, are we allowed to swear, bullshit, basically. It's basically Western stereotypes enshrined as scientific fact. And that sounds like a pretty harsh thing to say, but I think I pretty much stand by that at this point. But for me, when I was a graduate student, when I was an undergraduate in psychology and in physiology and in anthropology, you know, I also had read that Darwin said that there were these distinctive facial expressions that were coordinated with specific emotional states, the specific states of the nervous system. This was Darwin's view. And I assumed it was correct until I started to try to use that information in the lab and everything fell apart, you know.
因此，如果我们能稍微深入探讨一下面部表情这块儿，可以吗？当然可以。我在心理学和神经科学教科书中学到过，因为这些东西就在我面前，有一些核心的面部表情类别是跨文化普遍存在的，传达了人的内在状态。那些下垂的嘴角，可能加上皱起的眉头，被认为与负面情绪状态相关，比如悲伤，甚至可能是抑郁；与之相反，嘴角上翘、眼睛睁大则是喜悦和兴奋的表现。有些内容与我个人的经验相符，但是现在你和其他认真研究情绪的科学家如何看待这些经典文献呢？是的，我想说，我的科学探索之旅并不是为了推翻一个世纪以来的一堆胡说八道，基本上就是将西方的刻板印象奉为科学事实。听起来可能有点严厉，但是我目前仍坚持这个观点。对我来说，当我还是一名研究生、心理学和生理学以及人类学的本科生时，我也读到达尔文曾说过，有一些独特的面部表情与特定的情绪状态、神经系统的特定状态相匹配。这是达尔文的观点。我一直以为这是正确的，直到我开始在实验室里尝试使用这些信息，一切都崩塌了。
So when you show someone in a laboratory, like a student or somebody from the community, a face, a disembodied face where the person's eyes are widened in the face and they're gasping like a stereotypic fear expression, most of the time they don't know what it is. And so I would try to use these faces as stimuli and experiments and they weren't working the way that they were supposed to work. And they were really going all the way back to the beginning of psychology. There were always debates about whether or not this was actually accurate. And there's a really interesting story about how Darwin came to this idea, which I can tell you about, but it's not because he cared about emotion. And he was basically taking his own very Western views about emotion to make some claims about evolution, actually. So I have more to say about that and about why it's a problem to take anything that anybody said, even Darwin from, you know, 150 or so years ago or whatever it is and treat it like it's a modern text. So he was writing at a particular time for a particular purpose and that doesn't necessarily mean that whatever he wrote is true. But I'll just tell you what the evidence says. That there has been in psychology a debate, really vicious debate actually for probably 50 years about the nature of facial expressions and whether they're universal and whether there's this one to one correspondence between a particular face and like a facial configuration of a particular emotional state, smiling and happiness, scowling and anger, wrinkling your nose and disgust. And so in 2016, I think the Association for Psychological Science tasked me and some other senior scientists with attempting to write a white paper, a consensus paper on what the literature actually shows. He read all the research, you know, can you find a pattern there? Does it actually reveal anything about whether or not facial expressions are universal, particularly for emotion?
当你向实验室中的某人展示一张脸（像是一个学生或社区中的某人），一个无实体的脸，其中人的眼睛在脸上变得很大，呼吸困难，像是一种典型的恐惧表情时，大多数情况下他们不知道这是什么。所以我试图使用这些脸作为刺激和实验，但它们并没有按照预期的方式起作用。它们实际上一直都从心理学的起源开始，人们一直在争论这是否是准确的。还有一个有趣的故事，关于达尔文是如何得出这个想法的，我可以告诉你，但并不是因为他关心情绪。实际上他只是根据自己非常西方的观点对情绪做出了一些关于进化的主张。所以我还有更多要说关于这个问题，为什么将任何人说过的话（甚至是达尔文150年前的话）当作现代文本来对待是有问题的。他是在一个特定的时间为了特定的目的而写作的，这并不一定意味着他写的内容是真实的。但我只是告诉你证据显示的情况。心理学中一直存在一场关于面部表情特质的激烈辩论，是否它们是普遍的，是否存在特定面部表情和特定情绪状态之间的一对一对应关系，比如微笑代表快乐，皱眉代表愤怒，皱鼻子代表厌恶。所以在2016年，我想协会委托我和其他一些资深科学家尝试撰写一份关于文献实际显示情况的白皮书，一个共识文件。他们阅读了所有的研究，你知道能找到一种模式吗？它实际上是否揭示了一些关于面部表情是否普遍，特别是情绪方面的东西？
And the way they do this, they have a journal for this purpose for taking a widely held belief that is highly debated and bringing together a panel of experts who disagree with each other at the outset. And they have to work together to see if they can come to consensus over the data. And this is something that, you know, people have tried in the past and I mean, they're really vicious. People have been vicious with each other over this question. So when we brought together a group of people, several people refused to serve, senior scientists refused to serve on this panel. But. Out of fear. Using their funding or something. You know, that's a whole other conversation about why a certain scientist would not want to engage with people who disagree with them. That's an interesting conversation to have. But I don't think it's as simple actually as just their career is or they care about, you know, their money or funding or whatever. And that would be an easy answer, but I don't actually think that's what's going on, but that's another sort of.
他们做的方式是，为了探讨一个被广泛持有但高度争议的信念，他们专门设立了一个期刊，并聚集了一组最初相互不同意见的专家。他们必须共同努力，以查看是否可以就数据达成一致意见。这是一件在过去人们尝试过的事情，我的意思是，他们真的很激烈。人们在这个问题上互相刻薄。所以当我们聚集了一群人时，有几个人拒绝参加，高级科学家拒绝参加这个小组。但是，出于恐惧。使用他们的资金或其他原因。你知道，这会引发另一个谈话，为什么某些科学家不愿与持不同意见的人交流。这是一个有趣的讨论。但我认为事实并不像他们的事业或者他们关心的是他们的钱或资金之类的那么简单。那可能是一个简单的答案，但事实上我并不认为事情是这样的，但这又是另一种。
But anyway, so there were five of us who got together. All senior scientists, all from different fields, some of us hadn't met each other before we all knew of each other, of course. And we met over zoom. For two and a half years, this is pre COVID because people were all over the world, right. And we read over a thousand papers. So I was the only one in this group of the five of us who my starting hypothesis was that facial movements are meaningful, but they're not. There's no one to one correspondence between a particular facial configuration, like a scowl. And anger.
但无论如何，我们五个人聚在一起。都是资深科学家，来自不同领域，有些人之前没有见过面，但当然大家都知道彼此。我们通过 Zoom 见面。前 COVID 的两年半里，因为大家分布在世界各地。我们阅读了一千多篇论文。所以在我们这五个人组成的小组中，我是唯一一个最初假设面部运动具有意义的人，但事实并非如此。特定的面部表情，比如皱眉，并不能与愤怒直接对应。
Not just that it would vary across cultures, but that it varies for you across situations. I mean, do you scowl every time you're angry? I don't scowl every time I'm angry. In fact, and I also scowl at times when I'm not angry. So, and there are scientific reasons to think that the collection of facial expressions that people make when they're angry or when they're sad or whatever would be highly variable. So that was my starting position. And then the, there were varying four guys.
不仅仅是因为文化差异，而且在不同情境下也会出现变化。我的意思是，你每次生气都皱着眉头吗？我并不是每次生气都会皱眉头。事实上，我有时候即使不生气也会皱眉头。因此，有科学理由认为人们在生气或悲伤时做出的面部表情会变化很大。这就是我的出发点。然后，这四个人也有各自不同的表情。
So there were, I just refer them as guys because it was me and four guys. And the guys, they all, to some extent, thought that facial expressions were universal, but they had differing reasons and all for, for, for hypothesizing that. And they also had different commitments, degrees of commitment to that position. But we write off the bat sort of agreed that we, it didn't matter who was right. That was just not relevant.
所以，我只是称他们为“家伙”，因为我和其他四个人。这些家伙们，都在某种程度上认为面部表情是普遍的，但他们有不同的原因和假设这种观点。他们也对这个观点有不同程度的承诺。但我们一开始就一致同意，谁是对的并不重要。这并不相关。
The only thing that mattered was that we could come to the consensus over the data. And if we couldn't, we had to really pinpoint why. Like, so what would be the critical experiments that would have to be done in order for us to come to consensus over the data. And we also agreed that we had all kinds of contingencies set up. So, you know, you've got five senior people who are all running big labs and they're investing, you know, upwards of three years working on a paper. So, if we can't come to consensus, what are we going to do?
唯一重要的是我们能就数据达成共识。如果达不成共识，我们就必须找出原因。比如，我们需要进行哪些关键实验，才能达成共识。我们也都同意要做好各种后备计划。你知道，我们有五位资深人士，他们都在管理着大型实验室，花了三年的时间在一篇论文上。所以，如果我们达不成共识，我们要怎么办呢？
Are we going to write one paper and sort of write about the process? Or are we going to write separate papers? But we had all these contingencies laid out. But the key here, I think, is that we agreed that we were not going to be adversarial about it. Because it didn't matter who was right. And in fact, if somebody had to admit they were wrong and someone was going to have to admit they were wrong.
我们是要写一篇论文，并且在其中描述这个过程吗？还是我们要分开写论文？但是我们已经列出了所有这些备用方案。但我认为关键在于，我们都同意不要用对抗的方式来处理。因为谁对谁错并不重要。实际上，如果有人必须承认自己错了，那么就要有人愿意承认自己错了。
I mean, it turns out all of us were wrong about something, but we were going to be like supportive of each other and, and really encourage each other. And because, you know, being wrong is no one likes to be wrong, but for scientists to admit they're wrong is hard. And it's something that we should encourage each other to do, I think, more, and more publicly. And I think the people who do that are really brave. And so that was my position and they all agreed.
我的意思是，结果证明我们所有人都在某个事情上错了，但我们会互相支持，真正鼓励彼此。因为谁都不喜欢错，但科学家承认自己错误并不容易。我认为我们应该更多地鼓励彼此这样做，而且要公开地做。我觉得那些敢于这样做的人真的很勇敢。所以这就是我的立场，他们都同意了。
And the long story short here is that two and a half years, a thousand papers later, we all very reasonably came to consensus that there was no evidence for facial expressions. Of emotion being universal. And that instead what is what there's clear evidence of is that facial expressions, the way that people move their faces in moments of expression is highly variable, meaning sometimes in anger you scowl meta analysis so statistical summaries of many, many, many studies, even in the West show that people scowl about 35% of the time when they're angry, which is more than chance.
长话短说，经过两年半的时间，撰写了一千份论文后，我们很有理由达成共识，即没有证据表明面部表情是普遍的情绪反应。相反，有清晰的证据显示，面部表情在表达情绪时是高度变化的，意味着有时候在愤怒时你可能会皱眉。元分析显示，即使在西方，人们在愤怒时皱眉的概率大约为35%，这比随机事件更多。
So it gets you a good publication and, you know, the proceedings of the National Academy. But that means 65% of the time people are moving their faces in other meaningful ways. That's not scowling. So if you actually used a scowl or even, you know, a scowl in blood pressure or, you know, just maybe not one signal but still a couple signals, but you would be wrong more than half the time. You would miss more than half the cases.
因此，这能让你得到一份好的出版物，你知道，是国家学院的论文集。但这意味着65%的时间人们在用其他有意义的方式移动他们的脸部。这并不是皱眉。因此，如果你实际使用了皱眉，甚至，你知道，一个皱眉对血压的影响，或者，你知道，可能不只是一个信号，而是几个信号，但你将错误超过一半的时间。你会漏掉超过一半的案例。
And even more importantly, I think that that's the reliability question. So there's lower liability for the correspondence between a scowl and anger. It's above chance. So scowling is one expression of anger, but it's certainly not the dominant one. And there is no dominant one. It's just highly variable depending on the situation that you're in. So sometimes when I'm angry, I sit quietly and plot the demise of my enemy. You know, sometimes I smile in anger. Sometimes I cry in anger. It really depends on the situation.
更重要的是，我认为这是可靠性的问题。所以对于皱眉和愤怒之间的对应关系有降低的可靠性。它高于偶然机会。皱眉是愤怒的一种表达方式，但绝对不是主导方式。也没有主导方式。它取决于你所处的情况，变化很大。有时候当我生气时，我会静静地坐着策划对敌人的毁灭。有时我生气时会微笑。有时我生气时会哭泣。这真的取决于情况。
But more importantly, half of the scowls that people make are not related to anger. That means that the specificity is again higher than chance. So if you see someone scowling, the chances are that they might not be angry. They might be concentrating really hard or they might have gas. I mean, there are a lot of reasons why people make a scowl. And we found this for every emotion category that had ever been studied. And I want you to notice what I just did there. I'm no longer referring to an emotion as if it's an entity or a thing.
但更重要的是，人们生气时做出的一半皱眉并不是因为愤怒。这意味着具体性再次高于偶然。因此，如果你看到有人皱着眉头，很可能他们并不生气。他们可能正在专心致志，或是肚子有气。我的意思是，人们皱眉会有很多原因。我们发现，对于所有曾被研究过的情绪类别都是如此。我希望你注意到我刚才所做的事情。我不再将情绪视为一个实体或一种东西。
So anger isn't one thing. It's a category of things, a grouping of things. And if I'm not mistaken, it includes verbs, right? Like anger as a set of verb actions in the brain and body. It's a process. It's not an event. Exactly. It's not a noun. It's a verb. And it's a process. But the point is that it's a highly variable grouping of instances.
所以愤怒并不是一件事。它是一类事物，一组事物。如果我没记错的话，它包括动词，对吗？就像愤怒是大脑和身体中一组动作的集合。它是一个过程。不是一个事件。确切地说，它不是一个名词。它是一个动词。而且它是一个过程。但关键是它是一组高度可变的实例。
If you are talking about all instances of anger, all instances of anger that you have ever experienced or witnessed is a highly variable grouping of instances that vary. That doesn't mean they're random. But what the body does in anger depends on what the physical movements will be in anger. And that depends on the situation that you're in and what your goal is. And there are ways to talk about that in neuroscience terms, which are a little more precise.
如果你在谈论所有愤怒的情节，那么你所经历或目睹过的所有愤怒情节都是一个高度变化的群体。这并不意味着它们是随机的。但身体在愤怒状态下所做的取决于愤怒时的身体动作。这取决于你所处的情况以及你的目标是什么。在神经科学术语中，有方法来讨论这一点，这样更加精确。
But the important thing to understand here, I think, is that we're only talking about western cultures now. The minute that you go outside of the west, or even to the east, I mean, so there are other cultures that have been studied like China and cultures in China and Japan and Korea. They all have access to knowledge about western cultural practices and norms.
但我认为重要的是要理解的是，我们现在只是在谈论西方文化。一旦你走出西方，甚至去到东方，我是说，有其他文化已经被研究过，比如中国、日本和韩国的文化。他们都可以获取关于西方文化实践和规范的知识。
So what happens when you go to remote cultures which have much less access? It's not like they have no access because we live in a globalized world. So even hunter-gatherers in Tanzania, the Hadsah have access to western practices and norms, but much less, much less. And we did do that. And all bets are off there. I mean, most of the time, they don't even understand or experience facial movements as having anything to do with emotion.
所以当你去到那些几乎无法接触外部文化的偏远地区会发生什么呢？并不是说他们完全没有接触，因为我们生活在全球化的世界。甚至在坦桑尼亚的狩猎者-采集者哈德萨人也能接触到西方的做法和规范，只是少得多了，少得多了。我们确实有这方面的经历。在那里一切皆有可能。我的意思是，大多数情况下，他们甚至不能理解或体验到面部表情与情绪有任何关系。
So if they saw an emoji of a smiley face, would they just assume it was a couple? They might think it's a face. Because as we both know, there's some fairly hardwired brain circuitry for the two eyes and a line beneath it and something in the middle, this pseudo-nose, that organization of just spatial features, cues up face for both or most primal including those. It's really interesting that you say that because yes, of course, that's true, but it's not there at birth.
所以如果他们看到一个笑脸的表情符号，他们会认为那是一个情侣吗？他们可能会认为那是一个脸。因为我们都知道，对于两个眼睛和下面一条线，以及中间的某个东西，这种空间特征的组织，对于大部分人来说大脑中有一些相当根深蒂固的回路，这些都会激活面部的认知。你说得很有意思，因为是的，当然，这是真的，但这并不是天生就有的。
What's there at birth is a preference for that configuration. Right? So it's like there's some, and we could talk about why that's there. It's actually very controversial. But what newborns orient to, they orient to that, or they orient to that configuration, but it doesn't have to be a face. And then very quickly, they start learning faces because they're exposed to fate.
出生时就存在对这种配置的偏好。对吧？所以就好像有一些东西，我们可以讨论为什么会有这种偏好。实际上这是非常有争议的。但新生儿会朝向那个方向，或者朝向那种配置，但不一定是一张脸。然后很快他们开始学习辨认脸孔，因为他们接触到了。
I mean, really the first three months of life is almost like a massive, continuous tutorial on what faces are because they're being fed, and all. And everyone's in your face. So maybe last night, and you see the baby, friends of unbelievably cute babies, big cheeks, and there's this desire to see the baby smile. So you do the things that, and if the baby shows some sort of facial expression that makes it seem like it's a little bit like resistant, what do you do? You stop doing it, you change up your strategy, and then when baby cracks a smile, now I'm going to assume that the baby may or may not have been happy inside that little baby head. But when they do, there's a reciprocity, then we smile.
我的意思是，其实生命的前三个月几乎就像是一场巨大的、不断的关于面孔是什么的教程，因为他们在被喂养，所有人都在你面前。所以也许昨晚，当你看到那个宝宝，朋友们的宝宝都是非常可爱的，大颊腮，你就有想让这个宝宝微笑的欲望。所以你做了一些事情，如果宝宝露出一种好像有点抗拒的面部表情，你会怎么做？你会停止继续，改变你的策略，然后当宝宝露出微笑时，现在我会假设那个宝宝可能有可能没有在头脑里感到高兴。但当他们这样做时，就会有互惠的笑容，然后我们也会微笑。
Exactly. And so there's a template that's very robust. Right, but I want you to notice though that, so first of all, I'm not saying that recognizing a face as a face is not hardwired. It is, but it's hardwired by not by genes alone, right? And in fact, there's a really wonderful book called Not by Genes Alone. Basically, there's cultural inheritance. We have the kind of nature that requires the nurture. We have the kind of genes that require early learning. We have, we need wiring instructions from the world to get the rest of the information that we need to be competent, culturally competent in our lives.
确切地说，有一个非常强大的模板。但是我希望你注意到，首先，我并不是说识别一张脸是没有固化的。它是的，但它不完全是固化的。实际上，有一本非常好的书叫做《非单靠基因》。基本上我们有文化遗传。我们有一种需要培养的天性。我们的基因需要早期学习。我们需要来自世界的布线指导，以获取我们需要在生活中有文化能力所需的其他信息。
And that starts at birth. It probably starts before birth even. But in the third trimester, there's some evidence of learning, fetal learning, even in the third trimester. So the point is not that people aren't hardwired for viewing faces or recognizing faces, just where does that hardwiring come from? It's not by genes alone. Genes aren't the blueprint. The brain is expecting certain inputs from the world, and it needs that. Because infant brains are wiring in themselves to their world. And part of that world is people making faces and smiling. And those people happen to also be the ones who are maintaining that baby's nervous system.
这种过程从出生开始。甚至可能在出生之前就开始了。但在第三个孕期，有一些证据表明，即使在第三个孕期，也有胎儿学习的迹象。因此，问题并不是人们没有天生就能看到面孔或识别面孔的能力，而是这种天生的能力是从哪里来的？不仅仅是基因。基因并不是设计蓝图。大脑期待着来自世界的某些输入，它需要这些输入。因为婴儿的大脑正将自己与世界连接在一起。而世界的一部分就是人们做出各种表情和微笑。这些人碰巧也是那些维护婴儿神经系统的人。
I mean, there is reward learning, right? Or reinforcement learning right off the bat, because these are the people who keep you comfortable. They are the ones who feed you. They're the ones who help you get to sleep and so on and so forth. And so you're going to be very, very sensitive to changes in the contingencies of their behavior. Your brain as a pattern learner is just going to learn those patterns. If we know that smiling is a cue for happiness, it's because we've learned it. And that doesn't mean that that learning isn't hardwired. It just means that that information got into your brain by cultural inheritance, which is a part of evolutionary theory in the extended evolutionary synthesis, not in the original formulation that some people. Still kind of stick to. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012. So I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs. Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day. But oftentimes, I simply can't get enough servings. But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need. And it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress. Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1. I have more focus and energy and I sleep better. And it also happens to taste great. For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked if you could take just one supplement, what would it be? I answer AG1. If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman.
我的意思是，有奖励学习，对吧？或者从一开始就是强化学习，因为这些人让你舒适。他们是那些喂养你的人。他们是那些帮助你入睡等等的人。所以你会对他们的行为条件的改变非常敏感。你的大脑作为一个模式学习者，只会学习那些模式。如果我们知道微笑是幸福的暗示，那是因为我们学会了。这并不意味着这种学习是固有的。这只是意味着这些信息通过文化传承进入了你的大脑，这是进化论延伸综合理论的一部分，而不是一些人仍然持守的原始形式。正如许多人所知，自2012年以来，我每天都在服用AG1。所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。AG1是一种维生素矿物质益生元饮品，旨在满足你所有基本营养需求。当然，我试图通过包括蔬菜和水果在内的整食物来源获得足够的维生素和矿物质，每天都吃。但往往情况下，我无法获得足够的份量。但是通过AG1，我肯定能获得我所需的足够的维生素和矿物质，以及益生元。它还包含适应因素，帮助缓解压力。简单来说，当我服用AG1时，我总是感觉更好。我更专注有更多的精力，我睡得更好。而且它味道也很好。基于这些理由，每当有人问我如果只能服用一种补充剂，会是什么？我会回答AG1。如果你想尝试AG1，请访问drinkag1.com/huberman获取特别优惠。他们将赠送你五个免费的旅行包，以及一年的维生素D3K2供应。再次强调，这是drinkag1.com/huberman。
So it's far more nuanced than it was presented to me in those textbooks. And it sounds like it was outright wrong on many dimensions. Can I just mention one thing now? Please. This is really serious stuff. Like sometimes people think, well, you know, what's the big deal? This is such a big deal. I'll tell you why it's a big deal. Because in our culture, people believe that they can read mental states of other people by their face. And they believe it so much that it's enshrined in the legal system. And there are people who lose their lives because juries believe that they can read remorse or the lack of it.
因此，这比那些教科书中呈现给我的更加微妙。听起来在许多方面都是完全错误的。我能现在提一件事吗？请。这真的是非常严肃的事情。有时候人们会觉得，嗯，这有什么大不了的？其实，这是一件很大的事。我告诉你为什么这很重要。因为在我们的文化中，人们相信他们可以通过别人的脸来读取其心理状态。他们如此坚信这一点，以至于它被纳入了法律体系中。也正因为如此，一些人会因为陪审团相信他们可以读懂悔意或缺乏悔意而失去生命。
And in fact, there was just a case last year, I believe, where the Innocence Project got involved because there was a woman who was on death row. And what put her on death row was a police officer's claim that he could read her emotions by the comportment of her face and her body. And, you know, it was possible to get a stay of execution so that she could be retried. And, you know, so I'm not saying she was guilty or not guilty. I'm just saying what put her on death row was evidence that would not be admissible in a scientific way now. And there are lots of cases where judgments are made that end up impacting people's lives in pretty serious ways.
事实上，去年只发生了一起案例，我相信无罪项目参与其中，因为有一名女性被判处死刑。让她被判死刑的是一名警察声称他能通过她的面部和身体举止来读取她的情绪。可以暂缓执行死刑，以便进行重审。所以我并不是在说她有罪或无罪。我只是说将她置于死刑的证据现在在科学上是不可接受的。还有很多案例，判决结果对人们的生活产生了严重影响。
So this is a really serious thing. And it's puzzling to me why it's so, it's got such traction, this idea that there are these universal expressions that we can use to read each other. And, you know, it's just not true. I mean, the science just, it's so overwhelmingly, I feel like, you know, scientists, I don't like to use the T word, you know, the F word fact, you know, it's a scary word, T word truth. But I think in this case, I feel like I can really, at least with a little T, I can use it. You probably have particular facial movements that you make on a regular basis that are tells for you.
这是一件非常严肃的事情。让我感到困惑的是，为什么这个想法会如此受到重视，认为我们可以用一种普遍的表情去解读彼此。但事实并非如此。科学证据是如此压倒性地证明了这一点，我觉得科学家们并不喜欢使用"T字词"或者"F字词"，也就是事实这个可怕的词，真相这个T字词。但我觉得在这个案例中，至少可以使用一点小字母T。你可能有一些固定的面部表情动作，对于你来说是一种泄露。
I know I do. You know, my husband can look at my actions and he can make really decent guesses about what's going on for me upstairs, right? But that's because he's known me for 30 years, actually 30 years today. I should just say that many, many, many, many, 30 years ago today. But he's, you know, brains are pattern learners. So I'm not saying that everything is random and like there's no, it's all noise. I'm saying that there just aren't these, you know, universal templates. They just, it's not like that. And we really have to stop assuming that there are.
我知道我是这样的。你知道，我的丈夫可以从我的行动中猜测出我心理上正在发生的事情，对吧？但这是因为他认识我已经有30年了，事实上是今天30周年。我应该说是很多很多很多年前的今天。但他知道，大脑是模式学习者。所以我并不是说一切都是随机的，不存在模式。我只是说，并不存在这种普遍模板。它们并不是那样。我们真的必须停止假设存在这样的模板。
Well, I'm so glad that you're getting that message out there. And I'm very thankful that you highlighted the seriousness of this, these myths that have propagated. And that's a perfect segue into what I was already going to ask, which is, it's based on something that I think is in very much agreement with what you're saying. Previous guest on this podcast, I think it was our first guest episode, Dr. Carl Diceroth, Colle Gumminate, Stanford incredible bio engineer. Really, you know, 0.01% in his, you know, category of science as well as a practicing psychiatrist said something which really stuck with me over the years, which I once heard him say, you know, we don't really know how other people feel at all. In fact, most of the time we don't even know how we feel. And that prompted the question for me about how good or poor are we at gauging our own emotional states and in particular at labeling them, both to others and for ourselves.
嗯，我很高兴你在传达这个信息。我非常感激你强调了这个严肃问题，这些误解一直在传播。这正好引出了我本来要问的问题，我觉得这与你所说的非常一致。此前的客人在这个播客节目上说过，我想那是我们的第一位客人，卡尔·迪塞罗斯博士，斯坦福大学令人难以置信的生物工程师。他真的是在他的这个科学领域中的顶尖人物，也是一名执业精神科医生。他曾说过一句话让我一直记在心里，我曾经听过他说，你知道，我们其实根本不知道别人是如何感受的。事实上，大部分时候我们甚至不知道自己是如何感受的。这让我产生了一个问题，我们能够多么好或差地感知自己的情绪状态，特别是在对自己和他人进行标签时。
And so here's the direct question. Is language sufficient to capture this incredibly complex thing that we're calling emotions? So for instance, the other day I was in New York with my sister, then she left. I went out for a bit. I was having a pretty good day and then I returned to the place where I was staying and I was hit with this feeling of intense loneliness. And I don't know why. And then I had a bunch of ideas about how that related to growing up and I was going to see friends the next day and I'm an adult and so I could use some top down regulation and say, oh, it's not. I was in the regulation and say, you know, maybe I'm a little tired or I didn't because I hadn't slept as well the night before. I've been pretty rested recently.
这是个直接的问题。语言足以捕捉我们称之为情感的这个极其复杂的东西吗？比如，前几天我和姐姐在纽约，然后她离开了。我出去走走。那天我过得很快乐，然后回到我住的地方，突然袭来一股强烈的孤独感。我不知道为什么。然后我想起了一堆关于这与成长有关的想法，第二天我要见朋友，我是成年人，所以我可以用一些自上而下的调节说，“哦，没事的。也许我有点累了，或者前一天晚上没睡好。我最近休息得很好。”
And then I actually wrote in my journal, I said, you know, maybe most of feeling good is being pretty well rested and not in any physical pain. That's a big part of feeling good is the absence of fatigue and the absence of physical pain. And then I thought, wow, that's just so basic. It's like two building blocks. It is clearly insufficient. But then I couldn't think of a word to adequately describe the emotion that came about an hour later when I was feeling a little bit better, but not completely better. So was I lonely? Not really. Not anymore.
然后我实际上在我的日记中写道，我说，你知道，也许感觉良好的大部分是因为休息得相当充足，没有任何身体疼痛。感觉良好的一个重要组成部分是没有疲劳和身体疼痛的存在。然后我想，哇，这太基本了。就像是两个基本的要素。这显然是不够的。但是，一个小时后，当我感觉好一点但并不完全好时，我想不出一个词来充分描述当时产生的情绪。那我是孤独吗？不是真的。不再。
Was I sad? Not really. But you know, as I had headed out into the city, I was thinking, I don't really have a word for how I feel. I'm sort of okay, not great, not low. You know, and so I think that we have emotional labels. I certainly do for peaks, you know, these peak emotional state super happy. I loved the time with my sister. We do this every year. This was a particularly good year for us to do this. And it went really well. We're texting back and forth how great it was. I certainly know what it feels like to be really down in the pits. I've got language for that. But then there's this huge range in between.
在我伤心吗？不是真的。但你知道，当我走进城市的时候，我在想，我并没有一个词来描述我的感受。我有一些难过，但也不是很低落。你知道，所以我觉得我们对情绪都有标签。对于高峰期的情绪，我肯定有，你知道，那种超级快乐的高峰情绪。我很喜欢和妹妹在一起的时光。我们每年都这样做。今年对我们来说特别好。一切都进行得很顺利。我们互发短信聊有多棒。我当然知道什么感觉是低落的谷底。那方面我有词汇。但在这两者之间还有大量范围。
And so I guess the simple question is, should we even trust the language as a way to understand how we're feeling or they're. Additional, if not better signals that we should perhaps learn to elaborate. Our understanding of emotions with. So I'm going to give you a simple answer and then I'm going to give you a more complicated answer. So the simple answer is no language is not sufficient. Period. I think the way that you have, well, I should say one language is not sufficient. So English is not sufficient and probably French on its own is not sufficient and probably Swahili on its own is not sufficient.
因此，我想简单的问题是，我们是否应该信任语言作为了解我们自己或他们感受的途径。此外，如果没有更好的信号，我们也许应该学会更详细地表达我们对情绪的理解。所以我将给你一个简单的答案，然后我会给你一个更复杂的答案。那么简单的答案是不，语言并不足够。我认为，用某种语言来表达并不足够。所以英语并不足够，单靠法语也不足够，单靠斯瓦希里语也不足够。
Although it's very interesting that the states that we mark with words in each culture, some of them overlap, but a lot of them don't. And it's very, very useful to have labels of emotion concepts from other cultures that capture configurations at lower a state that we don't really mark. We don't mark those and sort of distinctively pull them out as different from other states. I'd love to know what some of those are. Oh, there are, I should have brought them with me. I mean, there are some like, there's one, there's a German word, which I can't remember the name of the word, but it's like the experience of someone having a face that deserves a punch.
虽然在各种文化中，用词标记的情绪状态非常有趣，但一些情绪状态可能存在重叠，但也有很多是独立的。从其他文化中的情绪概念标签非常有用，它们捕捉了我们没有明确标记的较低状态的结构。我们不会将它们标记出来，或者将它们与其他状态区分开。我很想知道其中一些是什么。哦，有的，我应该把它们带来。我的意思是，有一些，比如有一个德国词，我记不起来它的名字，但它描述了某人有一个让你想打的脸的经历。
I'm sure someone will tell us in the comments. Someone, someone who knows German or spend time there, please put that word in the comments, but don't punch any other one. Another one that's my favorite is Ligut, which is, it's a Polynesian headhunting emotion word and it means exuberant aggression in a group like soccer or headhunting. Right, where you're basically, or I should say also in the military.
我相信会有人在评论中告诉我们。有些人，懂德语或在那里待过的人，请在评论中说出那个单词，但不要攻击其他人。我最喜欢的另一个词是Ligut，这是一个波利尼西亚砍头族的情感词，意思是在团体中的狂热攻击，比如在足球或砍头活动中。对，就像在军队中一样。
So when I was listening to NPR one day, a couple of years ago, must have been more than that because it's in my book. So it was probably more than seven years ago. I was listening to these guys talk, these former military personnel talk about being deployed in a war where they're with their buddies and their. They're basically hunting the enemy and they feel exuberant like they're, you know, and, and they're, it's not that they're happy, but they're, it's pleasant and it's very intense, very high arousal, you know, and in the moment it, it seemed right.
有一天，几年前，我正在收听 NPR 电台的节目。可能已经超过七年了，因为这个故事已经写在我的书里。我听到一群前军人谈论他们曾经被派往参加战争，与战友们一起追捕敌人时的经历。他们感觉兴奋，仿佛在追逐敌人，感觉很强烈、很紧张。并不是说他们很开心，但是那种感觉很愉快、很强烈。在当时，这种情绪似乎是对的。
And then they come back, you know, and they ask themselves like they come back and so they're now, you know, their deployments ended. Now they're back home and they're like, are my a psychopath? Like I enjoy killing people. What is this about? And I was thinking, no, no, you just experienced Ligut. And if you had a word for it, you would understand that it's a groupy feeling where you're all in it together and it's really intense. And, you know, they were experiencing the intensity of having their life on the line and being responsible for their, for their brothers, you know, and sisters and in their troop or, you know,
然后他们回来了，你知道，他们问自己，他们回来了，现在他们的部署结束了。现在他们回家了，他们会问自己，我是个精神变态吗？我喜欢杀人。这是怎么回事？我想，不，不是，你只是经历了利格特。如果你有一个词来形容，你就会明白这是一种团队感觉，大家共同经历，非常强烈。他们经历了生命面临危险的强烈感觉，对他们的兄弟姐妹和部队负责，你知道。
so the, what they would realize is it's a perfectly, it's perfectly within the range of normal human variation. It's just that in English, we don't have a word for it, really, but there are words that are concepts in other languages, right? Or the other one that I like is called Giegel, which is where when you see a baby who's really cute and you just want to like, oh, you want to eat a little bit of a squeeze. You have the kid was so cute. There's a little cheeks. There's just like jumping at you. And the parents are delightful people too. And they was just facing out because they had one of those outward facing baby things.
所以，他们会意识到的是，这只是在正常人类变化范围内的一种完美的状态。只是在英语中，我们确实没有一个专门的词来表达这种情感，但在其他语言中，有一些概念可以描述。我喜欢的另一个词是“Giegel”，当你看到一个非常可爱的宝宝时，你会想要捏一下或亲一个。宝宝太可爱了，脸颊肉呼呼的，像小鱼儿似的。父母也很令人愉快，他们正盯着你看，因为他们有一个向外的婴儿背带。
And it's just sort of like, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's called Giegel. Giegel. Oh, Kegel is from the other episode that we did on thought. Yeah. Well, that also has to do with babies. But yeah, in a different way. And are there's one in, I think there's a Japanese word for the despair that you feel when you got a bad haircut? Really? Yeah, because it's, I mean, it's really is a different kind of feeling than, you know, because you've got to like wait for it to grow at, you know, whatever. Anyways, the point being that words for us, Mark particular states and they're not all that they're not always the states that other people and other cultures care about. But I there's a, but the, even again, the freezing of your question, I just want to come back to and I'm not trying to pick at you, but feel free. What I love is that what you said before when you said my question was ill posed in your in the answer that followed, it made it very clear why. And I learned something about how they. The not emotion system, but the thing Zaplural that that create emotions work. So feel free. I grew up in the same culture that you did. I'm not Canadian by birth, but but in the academic culture. Yeah. You know, I mean that the stuff that we take online, by the way, folks is nothing compared to the kind of hazing that I experienced growing up in, in academic culture as it was done then. I don't know if it's still that way now. So feel free. Yeah. I'm tougher than I look.
这种感觉就像是，对的。对的。我觉得它叫做Giegel。Giegel。哦，Kegel是我们之前在关于思维的另一集里讨论的。是的。嗯，那也和宝宝有关。但是以一种不同的方式。我想有个日本词来表达当你剪了一次糟糕的发型后那种绝望的感觉？真的吗？是的，因为那种感觉不同于其他情绪，你必须等待它慢慢长出来，你知道。总之，我的观点是，对于我们来说，单词标志着特定的状态，而并非所有人和其他文化都关心这些状态。但是，即使再一次围绕你的问题，我只是想回到，并不是挑你，别客气。我喜欢你之前说的，当你说我的问题提出不当时，在接下来的回答中，你清楚地表明了原因。我了解了它们是如何工作的，不是情绪系统，而是那些创造情绪的东西。别客气。我和你一样在相同的文化中长大。我不是加拿大生人，但是在学术文化中是这样的。是的。我是说，顺便说一下，大家在线上看到的东西，与我成长过程中在学术文化中所经历的排挤相比，根本不算什么。我不知道现在是否还是这样。所以别客气。是的。我比看起来更坚强。
Well, no, I think my point is that I'm trying to get at here is that when we ask questions, any of us, me too, anybody ask a question. There are certain assumptions that we're making in order to allow us to pose the question. And sometimes what I'm taking issue with is not the question itself, but it's the assumptions behind the question. Right. And this is a very classic thing in philosophy of science, which I know I just said the P word philosophy, which scientists, you know, usually they roll their eyes back in their head and the fall over when you talk about it. But I think it's really important. So, you know, Ken language is language sufficient to label or to gauge emotional states kind of sounds like, and this is the assumption that people make, that there's a state in here called an emotion, and now I have to label it. I have to identify it. That is not how it works. Like that is not what your brain is doing at all. And in order to explain what I think is happening and what I, my best available guess, you know, like based on what I understand, it's like not even remotely. That, that is just not a meaningful question at all.
嗯，不，我想表达的观点是，当我们提出问题时，无论是我，还是其他人，我们都在做出某些假设，以便提出这个问题。有时候我对问题本身并不挑剔，而是对问题背后的假设有异议。这是科学哲学中的经典问题，我知道我刚才说了“哲学”这个词，科学家们通常听到这个词就会翻白眼，或者直接翻倒。但我认为这非常重要。比如，语言是否足以标记或衡量情绪状态，听起来像是人们做出的假设，认为存在一种叫做“情绪”的状态，现在我必须给它贴标签，去识别它。然而事实并非如此。你的大脑根本不是这么运作的。为了解释我认为正在发生的事情以及我所能提出的最佳猜测，基于我所了解的，也就是远非这样。那根本无意义。
I do think words are important. I just don't think that they have to be insufficient by virtue of what the brain is actually doing. And the way that I come at this is just really different from a lot of my colleagues. So really for a hundred years at least, I hate when people say things like that, like for a hundred years, but it really is like for a hundred years, at least what psychologists and neuroscientists do have did and are still doing is they start with a folk experience, a folk category, a common sense experience. I feel angry. I'm making a decision. I'm having a memory. I'm remembering something. They start with their experience and then they go looking for the physical basis of that experience in the brain or in, you know, in the body. I think that's really problematic because not everybody in the world actually uses those categories or has those experiences. A lot of that has to do with the scientific publication process. For sure. One of the most important statements I ever heard is from the late Ted Jones, one of the greatest neuroanatomists of probably the last 500 years, which was the following. He said, a drug is a substance that when injected into an animal or a person produces a scientific paper.
我认为言辞很重要。我只是不认为它们必须因为大脑实际上正在做的事情而不足。我对此的看法与很多同事的看法完全不同。所以至少在过去一百年，我真的很讨厌人们说那种话，像至少过去一百年那样，但实际上是至少过去一百年内，心理学家和神经科学家所做和正在做的就是从民间经验、民间类别、常识经验出发。我感到愤怒。我在做一个决定。我在回忆一些事情。他们从自己的经验出发，然后在大脑或身体中寻找这种经验的物理基础。我认为这真的是个问题，因为世界上并不是每个人都实际上使用这些类别或有这些经验。很多问题都与科学出版过程有关。毫无疑问，我听过的最重要的名言之一来自已故的泰德·琼斯，他可能是过去500年来最伟大的神经解剖学家之一，他说，药物是一种注射到动物或人体中可以产生科学论文的物质。
And in many ways. That's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. In case you square in the face, can you go, oh, right? Yeah. I mean, basically every drug disrupts, if taken an hour or two before sleep, changes the amount of REM sleep that you get. So I could imagine that almost any perturbation of the language system, the body, the facial movement system could give you a quote unquote effect that you could write a paper about. Yeah. But that doesn't mean it has any semblance whatsoever to what's happening in the world when we or other people experience emotions. And here's the, you know, there's so much in what you said that I just want to, it's very exciting to talk to you. So the first thing I'll say is that, you know, we often will identify, we, we as in the, you know, people, but also scientists identify biological signals by what we believe them to mean psychologically.
以许多方式。这太棒了。是的。是的。如果你直勾勾地看着，你会说“哦”对吧？是的。我是说，基本上每种药物，如果在睡前一两个小时服用，会改变你获得的REM睡眠的量。所以我可以想象，几乎任何对语言系统、身体或面部运动系统的干扰都会给您一个所谓的效果，你可以写一篇论文。是的。但这并不意味着它与我们或其他人在经历情绪时发生的事情有任何关联。而你所说的内容中有太多的东西，我只想说，与你交谈是非常令人兴奋的。所以，我首先要说的是，我们经常会通过我们认为的心理意义来确定生物信号，比如我们，当然也包括科学家。
So, Saratonin is a happiness chemical. No, Saratonin evolved as a metabolic regulator. It is a metabolic regulator. And whatever it's doing, it's allowing an animal to spend resources when the animal, the animal's brain isn't sure there's a reward at the end of that. Right. So you were saying before, you know, the absence of fatigue, the absence of discomfort. That's a, that's a pleasant feeling. Right. Well, yeah. So maybe Saratonin has something to do with pleasantness because it has something to do with energetics. Right. Cortisol. Cortisol is on a stress hormone. It's not a stress hormone. I mean, it's a hormone that is secreted more when the brain believes that there is a big metabolic outlay that's required. That's what stress is basically. It's the brain believes there's a big metabolic outlay that's about to be required. And it matters. These kind of like little semantic tweaks, like they matter a lot because of how we do, because of how we do research.
所以，Saratonin是一种幸福化学物质。不，Saratonin进化成为一个代谢调节剂。它是一个代谢调节剂。不管它在做什么，它让动物在动物的大脑不确定最终是否有奖励的情况下花费资源。对。所以你之前说过，你知道，没有疲劳感，没有不适感。那是一种愉快的感觉。是的。那么也许Saratonin与愉快有关，因为它与能量有关。对。皮质醇。皮质醇是一种应激激素。它不是一种应激激素。我的意思是，当大脑认为需要进行大量代谢时，它会分泌更多的激素。这基本上就是压力的含义。大脑认为即将需要大量代谢。这很重要。这种像是微小的语义调整，它们非常重要，因为我们做研究的方式。
So I would say I don't start with the categories that derive from English and my own experience. I start with the nervous system. I try to learn what is the best available evidence for how that nervous system evolved, how it developed, how it's structured. Right. Anatomy to me is very important. Some of my best hypotheses come from just learning the anatomy and realizing, oh, there's a connection there. That's direct. That should mean something. You know, I mean, I could give you lots of examples of where we've had, we've made discoveries solely because we noticed an antonymical connection and we're really curious about what they might be involved with. But if you start with that premise, then you think about the brain and I think about the brain in a really different way. Right. So I don't think about the brain as a stimulus driven organ.
因此，我想说我并不是从源自英语和自己经验的分类开始。我从神经系统开始。我试图了解有关神经系统如何进化、如何发展、结构如何的最佳证据。解剖在我看来非常重要。我的一些最好的假设都是从学习解剖中得来的，意识到，噢，那里有一个连接。那是直接的。应该有意义。你知道，我的意思是，我可以给你很多例子，我们之所以做出发现，仅仅是因为注意到了一个解剖学上的连接，我们对它们可能涉及的事物非常好奇。但如果你从这个前提开始，那么你就会思考大脑，我以一种非常不同的方式思考大脑。我不将大脑看作是一个被刺激推动的器官。
I think about it more like this, that the brain is, first of all, the brain is not running a model or making inferences about the world. All the brain knows are signals from the sensory surfaces of its body. So your brain is modeling your retina and it's modeling your cochlea and it's modeling the sensory surfaces of the skin. And sure, signals, you know, are, you know, hit those surfaces and those surfaces transduce those signals and send them up to the brain. But the brain only knows the body and anything it knows about the world, it knows about the world through the body, through the sensory surfaces of the body. So that's the first for me really big important point. The second important point is that I think about the brain as being trapped in a dark, silent box called your skull, you know, and it's so weird saying these things to you. You're so much, you know, you're like, you're this really esteemed, like, neuroscientist and here I am explaining to you how I think the brain works. It's just very, you know, important for our audience.
我更倾向于这样理解，首先，大脑并不是在运行一个模型或对世界进行推断。大脑所知道的只是来自身体感知表面的信号。所以你的大脑在建模你的视网膜，建模你的耳蜗，建模皮肤的感知表面。当然，信号会袭击这些表面，这些表面转换这些信号然后发送给大脑。但大脑只知道身体，它所知道关于世界的一切都是通过身体，通过身体感知表面来了解世界。这对我来说真的是非常重要的一点。第二个重要的观点是，我认为大脑就像被困在一个叫做头骨的黑暗、寂静的盒子里，你知道，说这些话给你听感觉很奇怪。你是一个备受尊敬的神经学家，而我在这里向你解释我认为大脑是如何工作的。这对我们的观众来说真的非常重要。
But it's also important for me, even though, yes, I know, I know these facts, but it's, I believe it's always informative to go back to the fundamental. Sure. Because we forget, you know, actually, I would say that someone once described the, I'll call him the great because he's a great visual neuroscientist, visual neuroscientist Tony Moffshin founded the department of neuroscientists at NYU once said, you know, a real intellectual is somebody that can appreciate and work with a topic at multiple levels of granularity. For sure. Right. It's not about, and oftentimes the more expertise is associated with more focus on detail. So I love returning to the core basics. Okay.
但对我来说也很重要，虽然我知道这些事实，但我觉得回归基础永远是有益的。因为我们会忘记，实际上，有人曾经描述过，我会称他为伟大，因为他是一位伟大的视觉神经科学家，视觉神经科学家托尼·莫夫申曾在NYU创建了神经科学系，他曾说，一个真正的智者是能够在各个粒度层次上欣赏和处理一个话题的人。这并不是说，往往更专业的人更注重细节。所以我喜欢重新回到基础知识。好的。
So I think it's wonderful. Please, please continue. So I think about the brains being trapped in this box. And it's receiving signals continuously from the sensory surfaces of the body, but those signals are the outcomes of some set of changes. And the brain doesn't know what the changes are. It doesn't know the causes of those signals. It just knows the outcomes. It knows the signals. That's what it's receiving. And so it has to guess at what the causes of those signals are in order to stay alive. And so that's in philosophy called an inverse problem. So the brain just has a massive continuous inverse problem that it has to deal with all the time. Like it can't have, it doesn't have access to all the information. No. It's just a guessing machine. It's a guessing machine.
我认为这很奇妙。请继续讲下去。我想到大脑被困在这个盒子里。它不断地接收身体感官表面传来的信号，但这些信号是一系列变化的结果。大脑并不知道这些变化是什么，它不知道这些信号的原因，只知道结果，只知道信号。它必须猜测这些信号的原因以保持生命。这在哲学上被称为逆问题。大脑不断面对一个巨大的连续逆问题。它无法获取全部信息，只是一个猜测机器。
So for example, you know, if you hear a loud bang, what is that loud bang? Could be a car door slamming. It could be thunder. It could be a car backfiring. It could be a gunshot. The brain doesn't know. It has to guess. And it's not making a guess like intellectual guess. The guess is a motor plan. It's a plan for changing the internal state of the body in order to support motor, skeletal motor movements. Do I need to run? Do I need to shut the window? Do I need to get an umbrella? Do I need to hold my breath because a car is backfired? What do I need to do?
因此，举个例子，你知道，如果你听到一个巨大的巨响，那么这个巨响是什么？ 它可能是车门关上的声音。 它可能是雷声。 它可能是汽车发出的枪声。 大脑并不知道。 它必须猜测。 它并不是像智力猜测那样猜测。 这个猜测是一个动作计划。 这是一个改变身体内部状态以支持运动的计划，骨骼运动。 我需要跑吗？ 我需要关上窗户吗？ 我需要拿把伞吗？ 我需要屏住呼吸吗，因为汽车被后排了吗？ 我需要做些什么？
So where does that plan come from? Well, it comes from past experience. The experience that's been wired into the brain. But I think that the evidence suggests that what the brain is doing is basically reinstating bits and pieces of past experience. Remembering, although we don't experience ourselves as a remembering, but basically it's re-implementing ensembles of signals from the past that are similar to the present in some way. Now, a bunch of things which are similar to each other in psychology is a category. So what the brain is doing is it's constructing a category. And in fact, we think about the brain as a continuous category constructor. It's constructing a category of possible futures, possible outcomes, possible motor plans. And how does it know which is the right one? Because it's not just picking one. There's going to be some sample that it's re-implementing. But how does it know which one? Which is the right one? Because there can only be one.
那么这个计划是从哪里来的呢？嗯，它来自过去的经验。这种经验已经被编码到大脑中。但我认为证据显示，大脑实际上是在重新实施过去经验的碎片。虽然我们并不把这种过程体验为回忆，但基本上它是在重新实施过去与现在某种方式相似的信号集合。现在，在心理学中相互相似的一堆事物就是一个类别。所以大脑正在构建一个类别。实际上，我们认为大脑是一个持续的类别构造者。它正在构建可能未来、可能结果、可能动作计划的类别。它如何知道哪个是正确的？因为它不只是选择一个。它将重新实施一些样本。但它如何知道哪个是正确的？因为只能有一个。
Well, I feel like in the example of a loud noise, what I immediately thought of as you were describing that is that my system would become aware of it. I would become aware of it. But then it's a question of, is there another loud noise? How closely are those loud noises spaced? Is it getting louder or less loud? And then, so a bunch of categories, it's like a bookshelf with an infinite number of books. But then with the second loud noise, now it's just one wing of the library. And then with the next thing that happens in the context, it starts narrowing. And then pretty soon you get presented with the book that says, the roof is about to cave in. For sure. And I think your analogy there is pointing out two things.
嗯，对于一个大噪音的例子，当你描述时，我立刻想到的是我的系统会意识到它。我会意识到它。但接着就是一个问题，是不是还有另一个大噪音？这些大噪音之间有多近？它是变大还是变小？然后，一系列类别，就像一本有无限书籍的书架。但是随着第二个大噪音，现在它只是图书馆的一翼。然后随着接下来发生的事情，范围变窄。然后很快你就会看到一本书，上面写着“屋顶马上要塌陷了”。我肯定。我认为你的比喻指出了两件事。
One is that really what the brain is attempting to do is to reduce uncertainty. Because uncertainty is super expensive. Now, sometimes we like deliberately cultivate uncertainty, right? Like we deliberately try to learn things that we don't know. We put ourselves in novel situations. We seek novelty because it's fun and interesting and whatever. Sure. But imagine every single waking moment of your life was like that, where you couldn't narrow things down from the library to the wing to the bookshelf to the, you know, to the particular shelf on that bookshelf to the fun. Terrifying. Yeah, it would be. That's the label I would give it. Yeah. It would be terrifying. Because I couldn't plan anything or do anything because all possibilities are open. Right. And it's just actually metabolically unsustainable. And, you know, there are some, there are some brains that are wired in a way that they don't predict very well. They don't create these categories very well. And so they're, they're dealing with. In really unbelievable amounts of uncertainty. So that's one thing I, is that part of what's the goal here, if you could say there's a goal is to reduce uncertainty. And I'm going to get to why this has anything to do with emotion in a minute, but I just need to set up the ground rules or the assumptions of, you know, of what I'm, what I'm working with here.
脑部试图做的事情之一是减少不确定性。因为不确定性是极其昂贵的。有时候我们会故意培养不确定性，对吧？比如故意学习我们不知道的事情。我们把自己置身于新奇的环境中。我们寻求新奇，因为它有趣有意思。当然。但是想象一下，你生活中的每一个清醒时刻都是这样，你无法从图书馆缩小范围选出一间房间，从一间房间选出一本书，从一本书选出一本特定的书架上的书。恐怖。是的，会很恐怖。这就是我会给它贴上的标签。是的，会很恐怖。因为我无法计划任何事情或做任何事情，因为一切可能性都是开放的。而且这实际上在代谢上是不可持续的。你知道，有些大脑的连线方式并不很好地预测。它们不能很好地创造这些类别。因此它们处理着难以置信的不确定性。所以我提到的一件事是，如果你要说这里有一个目标，那就是减少不确定性。我稍后会解释为什么这与情绪有关，但我需要先讲述我的基本规则或假设。
The other thing, though, that you pointed out, which I think is really important is that the none of this is static. It's all evolving over time. Right. The signals are evolving over time. So both the signals that are constantly hitting the sensory surfaces of the body and making their way to the brain, but also the intrinsic signals in the brain. It's all changing over time. When we talk about context that's important. How is the brain making a decision about similarity? Like, what are the features that are similar? It's, it's not just at a single snapshot in time. It's always happening dynamically over time. Right. And most of the time, though, you don't ask your, you don't wait to hear a second sound. You don't, you're not deliberately attempting to figure out what the sound is. Your brain is just sorting it out. Right. And it's sorting it out by narrowing down the possibilities. And there are some selection mechanisms in the brain that help it guess better. But also the signals coming from the world are also helping to select which possibility is the right one.
另一件你指出的事情，我觉得非常重要，就是这一切都不是静态的。它们都在随着时间不断演变。对，信号也在随时间演变。所以不仅是不断击中身体感官表面并传达到大脑的外部信号在改变，大脑内部的固有信号也在改变。这一切都是随时间变化的。当我们谈论上下文时，这很重要。大脑是如何在相似性上做出决策的？哪些特征是相似的？这并不仅仅发生在一个静止的瞬间。它总是在动态地随时间发生。对，大多数情况下，你并不会要求自己去听第二个声音。你也不会刻意地试图弄清到底是什么声音。你的大脑只是在进行整理。对，它通过缩小可能性来整理。大脑中还有一些选择机制帮助它更好地猜测。但来自世界的信号也帮助选择哪个可能性是正确的。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Inside Tracker. Inside Tracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you meet your health goals. I'm a big believer in getting regular blood work done for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed from a quality blood test. However, with a lot of blood tests out there, you get information back about blood lipids, about hormones and so on, but you don't know what to do with that information. With Inside Tracker, they have a personalized platform that makes it very easy to understand your data, that is to understand what those lipids, what those hormone levels, etc. mean, and behavioral supplement, nutrition and other protocols to adjust those numbers to bring them into the ranges that are ideal for your immediate and long-term health. Inside Tracker's ultimate plan now includes measures of both APOB and of insulin, which are key indicators of cardiovascular health and energy regulation. If you'd like to try Inside Tracker, you can visit insidetracker.com slash Huberman to get 20% off any of Inside Tracker's plans. Again, that's insidetracker.com slash Huberman to get 20% off.
我想暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商Inside Tracker。Inside Tracker是一个个性化营养平台，通过分析您的血液和DNA数据，帮助您更好地了解自己的身体，实现健康目标。我坚信定期进行血液检查的重要性，因为许多影响您短期和长期健康的因素只能通过高质量的血液测试来分析。然而，在市面上有很多种血液测试，您可以获得有关血脂、激素等信息，但不知道如何处理这些信息。通过Inside Tracker，他们提供了一个个性化平台，使您能轻松理解自己的数据，例如理解血脂、激素水平等意味着什么，并通过行为补充、营养和其他协议来调整这些数字，将它们调整到适合您的短期和长期健康的范围内。Inside Tracker的终极计划现在包括对APOB和胰岛素的测量，这些是心血管健康和能量调节的关键指标。如果您想尝试Inside Tracker，您可以访问insidetracker.com/huberman，享受Inside Tracker任何计划八折优惠。再次强调，就是insidetracker.com/huberman，享受八折优惠。
There's this scene that comes to mind from that movie. I think it was Saving Private Ryan where the guys that are about to hit the ground on D-Day are flinching with every crack of gunfire. They're just everything. It's a stimulus to move and then some of the more seasoned soldiers are literally having bullets whizzing by their head and people are dropping dead all around them. They're moving forward, steely-eyed and stable and upright. In part, we look at that and say, okay, they're courageous, they're seasoned, maybe they're desensitized in certain ways, but actually it fits much better with the idea based on what you're saying. It fits much better with the idea that they have intimate knowledge, both conscious and unconscious knowledge, that something right next to them is a threat, but not a threat worth responding to.
有一幕从那部电影中浮现在我脑海中。我想那部应该是《拯救大兵瑞恩》，在那一幕里，那些即将在诺曼底登陆的士兵们在听到枪声时会感到惊惶。他们什么都做不了。枪声是个刺激，让他们动起来，而一些经验丰富的士兵在头顶上的子弹呼啸而过，周围的人一个个倒下。他们在向前走，眼神坚定，稳定又直立。在某种程度上，我们会说，好吧，他们很勇敢，经验丰富，也许在某种程度上麻木了，但实际上，根据你的说法，这更符合他们具有一种内在的知识，无论是意识到的还是潜意识的知识，身边的某件事是一个威胁，但并不值得作出反应。
Right, exactly. But if it were headed straight for them, they would quite quite understand about that. What I would say is that it's not, I keep referring to things as signals and really, that's like my generic word for a quantity of energy of some sort. But my brain, every brain is constantly making signal noise distinctions. Do I need to care about this? Do I not need to care about this? Right, and we have ways of learning and we also have ways of queuing each other. So, humans use eye gaze to queue each other about what is signal and what is noise. So, if you and I are sitting, let's say we were at a coffee shop and we were in a part of town that I had never been to before and we were sitting having coffee and allowed siren went by. If you turned and looked, I would probably turn and look because you just queued me that that was something I need to care about. If you ignored it, I would probably ignore it because you just queued me that I didn't need to worry about it. I didn't need to care and we're constantly doing that with each other and we also do it with little babies and with kids and that's how we teach children. This is signal, this is noise, this you need to worry about this, you can ignore. And so, yeah, your description is perfect.
对，确实是这样。但如果那个东西直接朝他们飞来，他们会非常清楚那是什么。我想说的是，我一直在提到信号的事物，实际上，那就是我用来表示一种能量的通用词。但我的大脑，每个大脑都在不断地做出信号和噪音的区分。我需要关心这个吗？我不需要关心这个吗？对，我们有学习的方法，也有互相排队的方法。所以，人类利用眼神来互相提示什么是信号，什么是噪音。比如，假设我们坐在咖啡店里，我们在一个我从未到过的城市的某个地方喝咖啡，突然一辆救护车驶过。如果你转过头去看，我可能也会转头看，因为你刚刚提示我需要关心这个。如果你无视它，我可能也会无视，因为你刚刚提示我不需要担心。我们之间不断地这样相互作用，我们也是这样和小宝宝以及孩子们交流的方式，这就是我们教导孩子们的方法。这是信号，这是噪音，这个你需要担心，这个你可以无视。你的描述非常完美。
So, what does this have to do, any of this have to do with emotion? In order to answer that part of the question, I want to say, so okay, you've got these signals, the brain has these electrical signals going on, we'll just ignore the hormonal signals for the moment because that's complex, one is complicated. So, it's got all these electrical signals going on. It's when it's remembering something, it's just basically reinstating a pattern of signals. And it's got these signals coming in from the sensory services, okay, so what is the brain doing? It's a signal processor, so what is it, I don't mean a computer, I mean a signal processor in the engineering sense. So, what is it doing? Without getting into all the dynamics of prediction and whatever. What the brain is doing is it's assembling a set of features. Some of the features that it's assembling are very close in detail to the sensory surfaces of the body. So, in primary visual cortex, there's a retina topic map. The details there are very, very low level, like a line, an edge, you know, same thing in primary auditory cortex, right? It's tonotopic, so there are tones. But it's very, very, very low level details. And we might, there are many, many, many, many of these little features, so we would say it's a high dimensional array, lots and lots and lots of features.
那么，这一切与情感有什么关系呢？为了回答问题的这一部分，我想说，好吧，你有这些信号，大脑中有这些电信号在发生，暂时我们先不考虑激素信号，因为那太复杂了，太复杂了。所以，它有所有这些电信号在进行中。当它在记住某些事情时，实际上就是重新建立信号的一种模式。它从感官服务那里收到这些信号，好的，那么大脑在做什么呢？它是一个信号处理器，我不是说计算机，我是说工程意义上的信号处理器。那么，它在做什么呢？没有涉及到所有预测的动态等等。大脑在做的事情是它在组装一组特征。它正在组装的一些特征与身体感官表面非常接近。所以在初级视觉皮层有一个视网膜图。那里的细节非常低级，比如一条线，一个边缘，你知道，在初级听觉皮层也是如此，它是音高图的，所以有音调。但这些都是非常非常低级的细节。我们可能会说有很多很多很多这样的小特征，所以我们会说这是一个高维数组，有很多很多很多个特征。
And then, and let's just talk about one structure, just the cerebral cortex, let's not worry about, but what I'm about to say is basically true of really the rest of the brain as well. If you take the cortex off the surface, the cortical sheet off that wavy, you know, cortical sheet, you dig it off the rest of the brain, the sub-cortical parts, and you stretch it out like a napkin, you can see there's a compression gradient there in the architecture of the neurons. So, at the primary sensory areas, there are these tiny little, parameter neurons that are representing these very low level features. And they feed into bigger neurons, which feed into bigger neurons, which feed into more, bigger neurons. So, what's happening is you've got this very detailed array being compressed in its dimensionality until you get to the middle of the brain at the front, where there are many fewer neurons, but they're bigger and they have many more connections. So, it's a dimensionality reduction that's happening.
然后，让我们只谈论一个结构，就是大脑皮层，其他部分就暂且不谈了。但我接下来说的基本上也适用于大脑的其他部分。如果你将皮层从表面取下来，将波状的皮层脱离出来，将其从其他部分的亚皮层部分拉直，就像展开餐巾一样，你会发现在神经元的结构中存在着一个压缩梯度。因此，在主要感觉区域，存在着这些微小的参数神经元，它们代表着这些非常低水平的特征。它们输入到更大的神经元，这些更大的神经元又输入到更大的神经元，依此类推。所以，所发生的是这个非常详细的数组在其维度上被压缩，直到你到达大脑前面的中心部位，那里的神经元数量要少得多，但它们更大且连接更多。因此，正在发生的是一个降维的过程。
So, just to make sure I understand correctly and that the audience understands, the physical world, obviously, is transformed by our sensory apparatus, the retina, the cochlea, the sensing neurons in our skin. It's physical things, mechanical pressure, light, photon, sound waves. Okay, that's translated into neural code, which is chemical and electrical. And those sensory inputs are fairly vast, high dimensionality. So, lots of different orientations of lines. Even though it originates with just three cone photopigments, lots of opportunity for encoding different shades of color, contrast, okay, and all of that. So, we have lots of little neurons to represent all the possibilities of the physical world that are occurring. But as that information is passed further up along, excuse me, I have to be careful with the use of hierarchies because that's controversial nowadays. Not for political reasons, but for accuracy reasons. As that information is passed along, there's more convergence onto a smaller number of larger neurons.
为了确保我理解正确，也让观众理解，显然，我们的感官器官——视网膜、耳蜗、皮肤感受神经——改变了物理世界。它包括机械压力、光子、声波等物理事物。这些被转换成化学和电信号的神经编码。这些感官输入是非常广泛的，具有很高的维度。有很多不同方向的线条。尽管初始只有三种视锥细胞的光感素，但编码不同色彩、对比度等的机会很多。所以，我们有很多小神经元来代表发生的物理世界的所有可能性。但随着这些信息向更上层传递，对更少数量的大型神经元的收敛也更多。请原谅我要小心使用层次概念，因为这在当今是有争议的。不是出于政治原因，而是为了准确性。
So these are neurons that have access to a lot of information, but in course or form. Right, so they're low, you know, it's like, like compressing an MP3, like how an MP3 compresses information, for example. So the cortex is representing features. So, and I represent, I'm just using that in a generic way because that's also controversial about exactly how is the brain. Okay, but yeah, but for now I'm using it just in a generic way. So you go from lines and edges to a shape, like a round shape to a face to, right, so you're, you're basically you're, you're, you're going, what's happening is there are summaries of summaries of summaries of summaries of. I love that. I hope everyone hears that because I've been in this field of neuroscience a long time. As you move along the near axis from the sensory epithelium, now it sounds very, very gnome and clique, but from the surface of the skin in word, you're getting summaries. Yeah, a send more and more summaries. I think that's so important. That's a, that's a, like a gazillion dollar statement. Thank you. For understanding of the nervous system.
所以这些神经元可以访问大量信息，但是以一种过程或形式。对，所以它们的容量低，就像压缩MP3文件一样，比如MP3文件是如何压缩信息的。所以皮层表示特征。所以，我只是用一个通用的方式来表示，因为关于大脑究竟是如何工作，这也是有争议的。但是，对于现在，我只是以一种通用的方式使用它。所以你从线条和边缘到一个形状，比如一个圆形到一个脸部，对，你基本上就是，你是，你是，你是把，正在发生的事情是总结的总结的总结的总结。我喜欢这一点。我希望每个人都能听到，因为我一直从事神经科学领域已经很长时间了。当你沿着从感觉上皮向附近轴移动时，现在听起来非常古怪和黏稠，但是从皮肤表面开始，你会得到总结。是的，发送更多和更多的总结。我认为这非常重要。这是一个价值无数的声明。谢谢你。对于理解神经系统来说，这是非常重要的。
So, but each of those points correspond to some mental feature, like a line or an edge, or a circle or a square, or a face, or, right, but, but now, then you, when you, when you're in the mid line at the front, what are those features. Those features are things like. They're, they're multimodal summaries, meaning they're summaries of the sites and sounds and smells and right, but they, and they are lower dimensional, meaning they're, they're coarser. So there are things like threat, reward, pleasure. I mean, really abstract. That's what abstract means. It doesn't mean that those representations have no sensory or motor meaning. That it means that threat, for example, a summary can have many different patterns associated with it. And the brain is treating them all as equivalent. This, this, to me, again, feels so, so important for people to understand because as I'm hearing this in this word, summaries is just ringing in my mind. It's so important because one of the core components of my experience of my emotions, because that's all I can do. Its beautiful emotions, because that's all I can, really say for sure. My subjective interpretation and labeling of my own emotions is that they are pretty broad bins. Like I described really broad bins. And so that that's where I was exactly where I was going. So what about the word anger? Where is that represented? Like, well, that's a, that's one of these multimodal abstractions. In fact, anger is just a couple of phonemes. It's a couple of sounds.
所以，但是这些点中的每一个都对应着一些心理特征，比如一条线或一个边缘，或一个圆或一个正方形，或一个脸，或者，对，但是，但现在，然后你，当你，当你在前方的中线时，那些特征是什么。那些特征就是像这样的东西。它们是多模式的摘要，意思是它们是声音、嗅觉等的摘要，但是，它们是低维度的，意思是它们更粗糙。所以有像威胁、奖励、愉悦这样的东西。我的意思是，真的很抽象。这就是抽象的意思。它并不意味着这些表征没有感官或运动的意义。它意味着比如，威胁，一个摘要可能有许多不同的模式与之相关。而大脑把它们都视为等价的。对我来说，这再一次感觉如此重要，让人们理解，因为当我在听到这个词“摘要”时，它在我的脑海里回响。这非常重要，因为我的情绪体验的核心组成之一，因为这是我能做的一切。它是美丽的情绪，因为那是我能确切说出来的。我对自己情绪的主观解释和标记是，它们是相当广泛的分类。就像我描述的那样，非常广泛的分类。所以，这正是我想要去的地方。那“愤怒”这个词呢？它在哪里代表？像，嗯，那是一个多模式的抽象。事实上，“愤怒”只是几个音素。它只是几个声音。
But those sounds, the sound of anger corresponds over thousands of instances that you've learned in your life to very different patterns of sensory motor features. That's right because what's going on in your body during anger can vary. What way you move your face in anger can vary depending on the situation. What you see someone else doing in anger can vary. And so the word anger or any word is actually just a multimodal summary of many, many, many, many instances which are in their sensory and motor features, the sensory and motor meaning very different. And it seems to me are highly constrained by developmental and cultural experience. Because just today I learned that there's a word in Japan for the feeling that one has of having gotten a haircut they don't like. There's a word in Germany that pertains to the feeling of wanting to punch someone specifically because of the look on their face. Well really more like you, like to you, it feels like they're asking to be punched in the face. Even as you added yet more dimensionality to it.
但是这些声音，愤怒的声音对应了你一生中学到的成千上万种非常不同的感觉和动作特征模式。这是正确的，因为愤怒时你身体里所发生的事情可能会有不同。愤怒时你如何动作脸部可能会因情况而异。你看到别人愤怒时的反应也可能不同。所以愤怒或任何单词实际上只是许多许多实例的多模式总结，它们在感觉和动作特征上非常不同。我认为这些受到发育和文化经验的极大限制。因为就在今天我了解到，日本有一个词来形容一个人觉得自己剪的头发不满意的感觉。德国也有一个词，用来描述因为某人脸上的表情特别想打他的感觉。实际上更像是你感觉他们在恳求被打。即使你对此又添加了更多的维度。
So upon learning just those things just today, there is additional dimensionality brought in such that if I were to ever want to punch somebody in the face simply because of the look on their face, that I wouldn't necessarily label that as anger alone. It now has another dimension to it. And so I think I'm finally, I think I'm finally starting to understand how the developmental and the cultural influences plus the fact that language is a pretty crude descriptor for this neural process that you're describing. It's absolutely, absolutely. But okay, so before you use the word granularity, and so I'm gonna use that word too, in fact I've coined that phrase emotional granularity. This isn't a side, I coined that phrase almost 30 years ago and now people study it like it's a phenomenon which is cool in a sense. But also I kind of want to keep reminding them like that's a word that refers to a process. It's not a thing, it's a process. But the process is, so when the brain is a category constructor, how fine-grained are the categories? How precise are the categories? Right, like if you're using, if your feature of equivalence that your brain is using is threat, you're in really big trouble. Because there are like a gazillion different sensory motor patterns that could go with threat. So your category is gonna be massive.
因此，在今天仅仅学到这些东西之后，又引入了另一个维度，以至于如果我因为某人的表情想要直接打他脸，我不一定把它仅仅归为愤怒。它现在有了另一个维度。所以我觉得我终于开始明白发展和文化影响，加上语言只是对你描述的这种神经过程的一个相当粗糙的描述。这是绝对的，绝对的。但是好吧，所以在你使用"细粒度"这个词之前，我也要使用这个词，事实上我创造了这个短语"情感细粒度"。这是个旁观，我几乎30年前就创造了这个短语，现在人们像研究一种现象一样研究它，这在某种意义上很酷。但我也想不断提醒他们，这是一个指代过程的词。它不是一件事，而是一个过程。但这个过程是，当大脑是一个类别构造器时，这些类别有多么精细？这些类别有多么精确？对吧，如果你的大脑使用的等同特征是威胁，你会遇到很大的麻烦。因为有无数种不同的感觉运动模式可以与威胁联系在一起。所以你的类别会很庞大。
How does the brain figure out which of those massive number of options is the one to use in this instance? If, on the other hand, you don't just wanna use sensory motor patterns as the features of equivalence or the features that you're using to say, this instance right now is similar to these past instances. If I had to search like right now, what is similar to right now? It would be me sitting across the table from somebody who has a beard and is dressed in black. And there are a lot of details there that probably don't matter. So you'd be searching for a specific match from the past. That's not very efficient either. So you need something in the middle. And that is to say you need to have, your brain has to be able to make categories that are more fine-grained, but not super fine-grained. But they have to be more fine-grained than just threat. You wanna keep in the library analogy that I made earlier, you want to keep the rest of the library accessible at some level. So you're not just staring at that one book. But if you use the category bad, this feels bad, then your brain is basically going to be partially constructing an entire wing full of books, like a entire wing full of options. If you use the word angry, then maybe it's a bookcase. It's constructing a bookcase full of options and a category that's the size of a bookcase. And if you were using the word frustrated, then maybe it's a shelf. The brain can learn to construct categories at different scales of generalizability. So if I'm in an instance, and my brain is making a guess, is it drawing from past instances that were associated with the word anger, were associated with the word fear? Maybe it's some combination. The words are just features, they're just sounds. There are also all sorts of other features, like what was my heart doing? What kind of motor actions did I make? What did I see next? So the point being, what I'm trying to bring here is that it's not like your brain creates an emotional state and then labels it. What your brain is doing is creating a category of possible futures, of what it's going to do next. And that state is largely determined by what the brain is remembering and how it's drawing from that huge population, that huge library of options. Which books is it sampling?
大脑是如何找出在这种情况下该使用哪一个庞大的选择之中的一个呢？另一方面，如果你不只是想用感觉运动模式作为等价物的特征，或者说，你正在使用的特征来表明，这个特定情况现在与过去的情况相似。如果我现在不得不像现在这样搜索，什么与现在相似？那就是我坐在对面有胡须且穿着黑色衣服的人面前。可能有很多细节并不重要。所以你可能在搜索过去的一个特定匹配。这也并不是很有效率。所以你需要一个折中的方法。也就是说你需要让你的大脑能够创建更精细的类别，但不是过于细粒度。但它们必须比威胁更精细。你想在我之前提到的图书馆类比中保持其他部分的可访问性在某种程度上。所以你不只是盯着那一本书。但如果你使用“坏”的这个类别，这感觉不好，那么你的大脑基本上会部分构建一个完整的书架，类似于一个充满选择的整个书架。如果你使用“愤怒”这个词，那么也许是一个书架。它正在构建一个充满选择的书架和一个书架大小的类别。如果你使用“沮丧”这个词，那么也许是一层。大脑可以学会以不同概括程度构建类别。所以如果我处在一种情况下，我的大脑在猜测，它是在从过去与“愤怒”这个词相关联的情况中汲取灵感吗？也许它是一些组合。这些词只是特征，它们只是声音。还有各种各样的其他特征，比如我的心脏在做什么？我做了什么运动动作？接下来我看到了什么？重点是，我想要传达的是，大脑并不是在创造一种情绪状态然后对其加标签。你的大脑正在创造一个可能未来的类别，它接下来要做什么。这种状态在很大程度上是由大脑记忆和如何从那个庞大的选择库中吸取的决定的。它正在抽样哪些书籍？
I love this so much because it explains so much that frankly has been perplexing to me and also somewhat troubling to me. Like for instance, we hear about emotional intelligence. And sometimes I wonder whether or not true emotional intelligence would be what you just described. The understanding of how this process works so that you can work with it. And I definitely want to talk about how one can work with this knowledge because I think it's incredibly powerful in its explanatory power, but also its actionable power. The other thing is that it's clear to me, just based on my experience today, of hearing these words from other cultures that relate to different emotional states, that the system, unlike a lot of systems in the brain, I like to think is fairly plastic. Like the moment that you know that there are additional dimensions to sadness, anger, et cetera, there's something comforting about that. What's really unsettling is the idea that we have such broad bins that we would define a near infinite number of situations as just fear, that would suck. That's not a good existence.
我非常喜欢这个，因为它解释了许多让我困惑的事情，也让我感到有些困扰。比如，我们听说过情绪智商。有时我会想，真正的情绪智商是否就是你刚刚描述的那样。理解这个过程如何运作，以便能够与之合作。我肯定想谈谈如何利用这种知识，因为我认为它在解释能力和可执行力方面非常强大。另一件事是，今天收听其他文化中与不同情绪状态相关的词语时，我清楚地知道，与大脑中许多系统不同的是，我认为这个系统相当灵活。一旦你知道悲伤、愤怒等情绪有额外的维度，这样的认识让人感到宽慰。真正令人不安的是，我们有如此广泛的分类，将近无限数量的情况定义为恐惧，那将很糟糕。那不是一个好的存在。
And yet I have to ask whether or not you think that as a species, not as a culture, but in our entire species, whether or not we are taking the exact opposite approach, that we're sort of moving into the emoji-ization. Is that a word? I'll make it a word and people can assault me in the comments. The emoji-ization of this very rich and complex system, we're starting to get into this mode of, like I'm gonna post an angry face and therefore like this is a bad, I'm angry at you. This is a bad interaction. We're gonna, it's potentially combative. Or, and maybe TwitterX or Instagram or other social media sites are kind of the epitome of this where you reduce this high dimensional space. And you keep the sensory stimulation very high. It's movie after movie after movie and color and sound and people doing crazy parkour stuff and bears eating giraffes or whatever it is. It seems to probably not bear seeing giraffes. You know what I mean? And you can see stuff that's sexual and violent and political and emotional and sweet and then the cats are kissing the monkey and you're like, or the monkey's kissing the cat. And so it's high dimensionality in terms of sensory space. But then what do we call it? We're like, oh, this is an emoji. You assign an emoji, you're hearting something. You're giving it a thumbs up or a thumbs down. So I almost feel like we're trying to, we're regressing to a state where we're kind of like an infant trying to figure out like, what the hell is going on? And we're saying, you know what? You get like six categories of response. When in reality, we should probably be expanding the number of different responses that we can have in order to accurately match the way that our nervous system actually works.
然而我不得不问，你是否认为作为一个物种，而不是作为一个文化，我们整个物种是否正在采取完全相反的方式，我们似乎正在走向表情符号化。这是一个词吗？我会让它成为一个词，让人们在评论中攻击我。这个非常丰富而复杂的系统，我们似乎开始进入这种模式，比如我要发布一个愤怒的表情符号，因此这是不好的，我对你很生气。这是一个不好的互动。这是潜在的对抗性。或者，也许TwitterX或Instagram或其他社交媒体网站可能是这种情况的典型，在这里你会将这个高维空间减少，而且感官刺激非常强烈。一部电影接一部电影，色彩和声音，人们在做疯狂的跑酷动作，还有熊吃长颈鹿之类的。可能不太可能看到熊吃长颈鹿。你知道我的意思吧？你可以看到涉及性、暴力、政治、情感和甜蜜的东西，然后猫在亲吻猴子，或者猴子在亲吻猫。因此，在感官空间方面有着高维度。但我们该如何称呼它呢？我们说，哦，这是一个表情符号。你指定一个表情符号，你会用心形表示赞成，或者用拇指向上或向下表示。我几乎觉得我们正试图退化到一种状态，我们有点像一个婴儿尝试弄清楚发生了什么事情。我们说，你有六个回应类别。然而事实上，我们可能应该扩大我们可以拥有的不同回应的数量，以便准确匹配我们的神经系统实际上是如何工作的。
Yes, exactly. There are many different things we could talk about with respect to the summary that you just gave, which I think is completely accurate. So what I would say is that if you look through even just the last, I don't know, 100 or so years, like the 19th, you know, 19th, 20th centuries, maybe you can see that the complexity of people's responses expands and contracts, right? So for example, this is something that I've written really speculatively about. But one of the things that I found really interesting is that, you know, authoritarianism, authoritarian thinking is the reduction of complexity to some things that are really, really simple. Like you're getting rid of all the complexity to, you know, basically these very, very course, low dimensional judgments. And things become black and white. It's the avoidance of complexity. So that there can be simple, single answers to things. And it happens in human culture at times and then there's an expansion of complexity at times too. So what predicts that? Like what is it in the human nervous system or our collective human nervous, you know, like we're just a bunch of brains attached to bodies interacting with other brains and bodies, right? So like what is it that causes these ripples of, and I have some thoughts about that that are really, really, really speculative. But I think the other thing that's really important is that we've talked about, so we'll go back to our cortical sheet that we've, and by the way, this is just one compression gradient in the brain, there are others too, right? There are at least four others that I can think of. So this is just one. But all compression gradients work the same way, which is that now we've talked about going from the low level details, compressing to these multimodal summaries, these really like simple features that are, right? But that compression is what engineers would call lossy, meaning you lose the information, you lose the information.
是的，确实。关于你刚刚提到的摘要，我们可以谈论很多不同的事情，我认为你说得完全正确。所以我想说的是，如果你看看过去的100年，比如19世纪、20世纪，你可能会发现人们反应的复杂性会有所扩展和收缩，对吧？例如，这是我之前写过的一些推测性的东西。但我发现非常有趣的一点是，专制主义、专制思维是将复杂性简化为一些非常简单的事物。就像你把所有的复杂性都去掉，基本上变成了这些非常粗糙、低维度的判断。事情变得是非黑白。这是为了避免复杂性，以便能有简单、单一的答案。有时在人类文化中会发生这种情况，有时也会有复杂性的扩展。那么是什么预示了这一切呢？人类神经系统中或我们集体的人类神经系统中有什么因素，你知道的，我们只是一群连接在一起的大脑与身体相互作用的身体，对吧？这是什么导致了这些波动，我对此有一些非常非常推测性的想法。但我认为另一件很重要的事情是，我们讨论过的，那么我们会回到我们已经提到的大脑皮质层，顺便说一句，这只是大脑中的一个压缩梯度，还有其他的，对吧？我想得到至少还有其他四个。所以这只是其中一个。但所有的压缩梯度都是一样的工作方式，也就是现在我们已经谈到了从低级细节压缩到这些多模式摘要，这些非常简单的特征。但这种压缩是工程师们所谓的有损失的，意味着你失去了信息。
So when you go from lines and edges to a face, those neurons, they just know the face, they don't have, they lose what they've thrown away, the details they've thrown away, those details are gone for those neurons that are representing a face. They don't have access to that. They don't have access to it. We know, so we said, well, the brain is making a guess. It's making a guess about what these, what this big, very, very high dimensional, you know, soup of signals in the world and in the body, like what do they mean, right? When the brain makes a guess, it starts with the compressed, low dimensional signals. It starts with the features like anger or like threat, or it starts with these summaries, and then it has to infer or guess at every synapse, there's a guess that's being made about what the details are at the next level.
那么当你从线条和边缘转向一个面孔时，那些神经元就知道这个面孔，它们丢失了丢掉的细节，那些细节对于代表面孔的神经元来说已经消失了。它们无法访问那些细节。我们知道，所以我们说，大脑在做猜测。它在猜测这个世界和身体中这个非常高维度的信号汇总究竟是什么意思，对吧？当大脑做出猜测时，它从压缩的低维度信号开始。它从如愤怒或威胁这样的特征开始，从这些总结开始，然后它必须在每个突触处推断或猜测，正在做出有关下一个层次的细节是什么的猜测。
Because what's happening is the guess is basically the brain going from these really general things to these very specific sensory motor patterns. It happens along the cortical sheet. It happens also down the nerve axis, down the nerve, you know, from the cortex to the midbrain, to the brain stem to the spinal cord. You have to go from a representation of, you know, run to the actual physical movements of muscles, and you know, angles of joints and things like that. So what you're doing is you're going in the other direction, you're adding detail, you're particularizing, and the brain is guessing. It's guessing, well, if it's using anger as the general feature, which instance of anger is it? And what are the specifics that are gonna happen? And what are the, and forgive me, but what are the adaptive steps that I might take or not take?
因为发生的事情是猜测基本上是大脑从这些非常普遍的事情转向这些非常具体的感觉运动模式。这发生在皮层薄层沿着神经轴向下，从皮层到中脑，脑干到脊髓。你必须从一个代表，你知道，跑步到肌肉的实际物理运动，您知道，关节的角度等等。所以你正在走另一个方向，你在增加细节，你在具体化，而脑则在猜测。它在猜测，嗯，如果它使用愤怒作为一般特征，那么哪种愤怒实例是它？以及将发生的具体情况是什么？我可能会采取或不采取哪些适应步骤，对不起，请原谅我。
Because I'm quoting a lot today, so forgive me, but in the words of the great Sherrington, Nobel Prize winning physiologist, the final common pathway is movement. Where's movement? And movement is nuanced, right? Humans, I suppose, have among the greatest variety of different speeds and types of movement. I think about parkour, gymnastics, think about then what like a cheetah can do. Cheetahs are impressive. Gymnast is truly impressive in terms of the range of movements and speeds, et cetera. In any event, the ultimate choice that the nervous system has to make is whether or not to move which direction, how fast or stay still, move forward, move back.
由于我今天引用了很多内容，所以请原谅我，但用伟大的谢林顿（一位获得诺贝尔奖的生理学家）的话来说，最终的共同途径就是运动。运动在哪里？而且运动是微妙的，对吧？我认为人类可能拥有各种不同速度和类型的运动中最丰富的品种。想想跑酷、体操，再想想猎豹能做到的事情。猎豹令人印象深刻。体操运动员在不同移动和速度范围等方面真的令人印象深刻。无论如何，神经系统最终需要做出的选择是移动方向，移动速度或保持静止，向前移动，向后移动。
And I'll just add, because I'm hoping that you'll expand on this, it's been said before that ultimately the nervous system is trying to make decisions about yum yuck or meh. Like, am I gonna move towards something? Am I gonna move away from it? Or am I just gonna stay put? Well, that's only, that's a very, I would say that those are very low dimensional features. So those are those compressed features, but that's not the only thing the brain has to decide. That's just a misnomer. Well, I can get out of this little pickle that I just put myself in by saying that I didn't say that. No, I know what you did. And now I won't quote who did, because he's a very famous neuroscientist, but he tried to reduce it all. He's at Caltech. Not somebody who studies emotion, he studies the visual system, but he said that there's the neural circuits, maybe it's because he studies mice, are essentially bend into yum yuck and meh outputs.
我想补充一句，希望你会深入探讨，之前就有人说过，最终神经系统要做的决定就是关于好坏或者一般般。比如，我要往什么方向走？我要远离什么？还是我只是原地不动？嗯，这些只是我要说的，我觉得这些只是非常低维度的特征。那些是被压缩起来的特征，但是大脑要决定的事情不仅仅是这些。这只是一个误解。我可以逃出刚才自己设下的陷阱，说我没有说过。不，我知道你是怎么做的。我不会引用他说过的话，因为他是一个非常有名的神经科学家，但他试图将所有简化。他在加州理工学院任职。虽然他不是研究情绪的人，他研究视觉系统，但他说神经回路，也许是因为他研究老鼠，基本上只有关于好坏或者一般般的输出。
And I've always liked it on the one hand because three's work and it's simple, but rarely is the way that we describe things, the way it actually works. So we would, in studying humans, we would say, well, that's affect, affect that's mood. Or it's just like, is it, should I move towards it? Is it pleasant? Should I move away from it? Is it unpleasant? Or is it irrelevant, basically? I don't care. Okay, think about when you're feeling horrible. You just feel, you feel horrible. You just feel, you feel bad. What do you do? You don't know it. You don't know because you don't have a plan of action.
我总是喜欢它，一方面是因为它简单又实用，但很少有我们描述事物的方式与实际运作方式完全一致。所以当我们研究人类时，我们会说，那是情绪、心情。或者就像是，我要向它靠近吗？它让我感到愉快吗？还是我应该远离它？它让我感到不愉快吗？或者它根本无关紧要，我不在乎。好了，想想当你感觉糟糕的时候。你只是觉得，你感觉糟糕。你只是感觉，你感觉糟糕。你会做什么？你不知道。因为你没有行动计划。
And that's ultimately, that is what those compressed like summary features, those very low course features. They have to be decompressed into details. Otherwise you don't know what to do. So ultimately, what the brain is doing is it's sampling from the past based on similarity to the present, to plan an action. And when I say action, I don't just mean skeletal motor action, like moving a limb. The first actions that are planned are the actions of coordinating the heart and the lungs. And all of the internal actions that are required to support the skeletal motor movement.
最终，那些被压缩的总结特征，那些非常精简的特征。它们必须被解压到细节中。否则你就不知道该怎么做。所以最终，大脑所做的就是基于过去与现在的相似性进行采样，来规划一项行动。当我说行动时，我不仅指的是骨骼运动行动，比如移动一条肢体。计划的第一个行动是协调心脏和肺部的行动。以及支持骨骼运动所需的所有内部行动。
Your brain is making, is categorizing and it's creating a category and there are options there. Those options, the motor plans begin with, should the heart beat faster? Should it beat slower? Does blood pressure need to go up? Should the blood vessels constrict or should they dilate? Should the breathing be deeper or more shallow? I mean, those are the first plans that get made. And then milliseconds later, there are the skeletal motor plans. And then your experience of the world derives from those motor plans.
你的大脑正在制作、分类并创建一个类别，其中有不同的选择。这些选择，即运动计划的开端，包括心跳是否加快？是否减缓？是否需要血压上升？血管是收缩还是扩张？呼吸是否更深或更浅？我是说，这些是最先制定的计划。然后，几毫秒后，会出现骨骼运动计划。然后，你对世界的体验来自于这些运动计划。
Those visero motor, that is the plans for the visara, for the internal organs, and the skeletal motor, so I'm just gonna refer to them as motor. Those motor plans actually give rise to your experience of the world. There's not some state that exists as an emotional state, which then you apply a label to. The label is just a set of features that are useful for generalizing from the past to the present. And the bin size or the, you know, of what a word refers to can change.
那些运动设计，针对visara计划，是针对内在器官和骨骼的运动设计，所以我只会将它们称为运动。那些运动设计实际上决定了你对世界的体验。并不是存在着一种情绪状态，然后你再给它贴上一个标签。标签只是一组功能性特征，用于从过去概括到现在。一个词所指的类别或大小可以改变。
It can change, it's different for different people, and it can change in your lifetime. And you can add new bins. That is, you can, so for example, there's a concept giskin look, which I probably just butchered, so if you speak Turkish, I'm sorry. But it's like, it has features of it, of like loss and like people blocking your goals. So we would say it's anger and sadness together. That's giskin look, when you lose something and you're pissed off about it. That's a category on its own, right?
情绪是可以改变的，不同的人有不同的表达方式，而且它可能在你一生中发生变化。你也可以添加新的分类。比如说，有一个概念叫做giskin look，可能我刚才说错了，如果你会土耳其语，我很抱歉。但它就像是失落和别人阻挠你的目标的特征结合在一起。我们可以说这是愤怒和悲伤的结合。即使你失去了一些东西并且对此感到生气，这也是一个独立的情绪分类，对吧？
It's just a different way of parsing that really detailed soup. And the more words you know, the more words are just useful for pointing to a set of features that are similar to each other. So what I mean by that is, if I say to you, Andrew, I had pizza last night for dinner. Pizza, two sounds, two syllables. That, those two syllables, they stand in for like 50 different sensory and motor features. Cause I don't have to say to you, I had a food, I didn't have pizza last night, but let's say I did. I had a food that was round and flat and had sauce and also cheese. And it had mozzarella cheese and also a little Parmesan cheese. And it had mushrooms on it and a little bit of olive. And you know, that's like really, really detailed and complicated, but instead I can just say, I had pizza,
这只是另一种解析那份非常详细的汤的方式。并且你认识的词越多，就越能用更多的词指向一组相似的特征。所以我的意思是，如果我对你说，安德鲁，昨晚晚饭我吃了披萨。披萨，两个音节，两个音节代表了大约50个不同的感官和运动特征。因为我不必告诉你，我昨晚吃了一种食物，它是圆的，扁平的，有酱还有奶酪。上面有马苏里拉奶酪和一点帕玛森奶酪。上面有蘑菇和一点橄榄。你知道，那实际上非常详细和复杂，但我可以简单地说，我吃了披萨。
Two features, two sounds, two syllables, phonemes. And with those two phonemes, I have just communicated to you in your brain, my brain had 50 features, it was representing them details. And now I have just communicated those to you or some number of them with two sounds, very efficient. Now, of course, you might think that I was from Chicago and had deep dish pizza. And I'll just resist. I don't wanna like offend anybody from Chicago, but that's not real pizza. That's not real pizza. That's not real pizza. Right, so you could then ask me, was it, but you're from Chicago, is that deep dish pizza? And then I would say, no, no, I'm actually from Toronto, which is just like New York. And so no, it was thin crust pizza, which is really the only kind of piece of there is. Just saying. But you know, but my point is that words are just stand in for they're just low, these like low dimensional features, these sort of gross features that stand in for many, many, many, many little detailed features.
两个特征，两个声音，两个音节，语音单位。通过这两个音素，我刚刚在你的大脑中传达了信息，我的大脑有50个特征，它代表了这些细节。现在，我仅通过两个声音就把这些传达给了你或其中的一部分，非常高效。当然，你可能会认为我来自芝加哥，吃深盘披萨。而我只是忍住了。我不想冒犯芝加哥的任何人，但那不是真正的披萨。那不是真正的披萨。那不是真正的披萨。对，所以你可能会问我，但是你来自芝加哥，那是深盘披萨吗？然后我会说，不，不，我实际上来自多伦多，就像纽约一样。所以不，那是薄底披萨，那才是真正的披萨。仅此而已。但是你知道，我的观点是，单词只是代表着低维特征，这些粗糙的特征代表着许多细节特征。
And that's how we communicate with each other. And we are constrained by what we know in our, so and what we can say in the extent of our vocabulary. And I'll just say that little babies, three months old, they don't speak yet and they don't understand language, but they can use words to learn abstract categories. So abstract just means that the word refers to many different patterns of sensory motor features. So the word is, or the category, the things that make the instances similar are a function or a goal, not like the sensory motor features. So you say to a baby, very explicitly, like I, cause we're talking about three, four-month-old babies, right? Babies can also do this implicitly too.
这就是我们彼此交流的方式。我们受到我们所知道的知识的约束，以及我们词汇量的限制。我只想说，三个月大的小宝宝还不会说话，也不懂语言，但他们可以利用单词来学习抽象类别。抽象意味着这个词指代许多不同的感官运动特征模式。这个词，或者这个类别，使事例相似的因素是功能或目标，而不是感官运动特征。所以你可以对一个婴儿非常明确地说，因为我们正在讨论三四个月大的婴儿，婴儿也可以隐式地做到这一点。
But in experiments, you say to a baby, look, sweetie. This is a bling. And you put the bling down and it makes a beeping noise. And then you say, now this looks different, feels different, right? Smells different. Look, sweetie. This is a bling. It beeps. Now you take something else, which also is different. And you say, look, sweetie, this is a bling. Now the baby expects this to beep. By the way, folks, just listening, Lisa just gave three examples first with a pen, then a coffee mug, and then her very own watch. Three very distinct objects, but all of which make, that are told, the baby is told, make a bling sound and they will bin those three visually distinct objects, functionally distinct objects into one single bin.
在实验中，你对一个婴儿说：“看，亲爱的，这是一个bling。”然后你放下bling，它发出嘟嘟声。然后你说：“现在这个看起来不同，感觉不同，对吧？闻起来也不同。看，亲爱的，这是一个bling，它会发出嘟嘟声。”然后你拿出另一样东西，也是不同的。你说：“看，亲爱的，这是一个bling。”现在婴儿期望它会发出嘟嘟声。简而言之，举例来说，丽莎刚刚给出了三个例子，一个笔，然后是一只咖啡杯，最后是她自己的手表。三个非常不同的物体，但是告诉婴儿发出类似bling的声音，它们将把这三个视觉上不同，功能上不同的物体归为一个单一的分类。
Because they make a, because they are sharing a function which is to beep. I think this is so important. And if I may, I want to ask whether or not we can take this incredible understanding of emotions, because that's really what we're talking about. We're really talking about how the brain, my version of how the brain works and how emotions emerge out of this system, basically. And absolutely, you described it far better than I could. And anchor that to this concept of movement, that the movement is the final common path, with the understanding that the movement system, and forgive me, but that we have systems in the brain and body that allow us to move, that's for sure, systems plural, that they run in both directions.
因为它们发出“哔哔”声，因为它们共享一个功能。我认为这非常重要。如果我可以的话，我想问一下我们是否能够利用这种对情感的了解，因为这确实是我们谈论的内容。我们真的是在谈论大脑如何工作以及情感如何从这个系统中产生。绝对可以说，你描述得比我更好。将这种理解锚定在运动概念上，运动是最终的共同路径，理解运动系统，抱歉，但我们的大脑和身体中存在让我们移动的系统，这是肯定的，有多个系统，它们在两个方向都运行。
In other words, how we feel what we feel, our emotions has some bearing on the movements that are more or less likely for us in a given context. And our movements clearly can also influence the way that we feel internally. Well, I mean, so if we just look at how things are happening, here's what the anatomy tells us, that when the brain makes a guess, that guess starts as a motor plan. Starts as a visceral motor plan and a skeletal motor plan. So heart rate changes, breathing changes, blood pressure changes, and potentially skeletal muscle movement. Right. And literal copies, literal copies, efferent copies of those signals are sent to, they propagate to the sensory areas, telling the brain, telling those neurons.
换句话说，我们如何感受我们的情绪，我们的情绪与在特定情境下更可能发生的动作有一定关系。而我们的动作显然也会影响我们内在的感受。我是说，所以，如果我们只是看事情是如何发生的，这就是解剖学告诉我们的，当大脑猜测时，这个猜测从一个运动计划开始。它开始作为一个内脏运动计划和一个骨骼运动计划。所以心率改变，呼吸改变，血压改变，可能还有骨骼肌肉运动。是的。这些信号的字面副本，这些信号的运动副本被发送到感觉区域，告诉大脑，告诉那些神经元。
This is the last time we made this, in this context, when this other stuff just happened, like this temporal context, right? And we made these movements. Here's what we saw next. Here's what we felt next. Here's what we smelled next. So. Yeah, I think of this, the image that pops in my mind, and we should explain to people what efferents copy is. In neuroscience and neuroanatomy, the connection to a structure is called an afferent with an A, and the connections out from a structure are called the efferents. But the way I was thinking. It doesn't even matter. It's just basically, the point here is that in our experience, in our. The brain. Your brain conjures an experience, okay? And that experience is that you feel something first, you see something, you feel something, you act. That's not what's happening.
这是我们最后一次做这件事情，在这种情境下，当发生了那些其他事情时，就像这种时间性的背景，对吗？然后我们做了这些动作。接着就是我们看到的下一个情况。接着是我们感觉到的下一个。接着是我们闻到的下一个。所以。是的，我在想起这个，我应该向人们解释什么是efferent copy。在神经科学和神经解剖学中，连接到一个结构的称为afferent，而从一个结构出去的连接称为efferents。但是我当时的想法。其实无所谓。基本上，重点在于，在我们的经历中，在我们的。大脑。你的大脑产生了一种体验，好吗？那个体验就是你先感觉到了一些东西，然后看到了一些东西，感觉到了一些东西，然后做出反应。但事实并非如此。
What's happening is, your brain is preparing the action first, and the feeling, what end your experience comes from that action preparation. So, it's a copy. It's like literally you have axons that are sending motor signals down the brainstem to the spinal cord, and literal copies of those axons. Like those axons have branches, that collateral branches that just send axons to other places. The same signal that is being sent to your spinal cord to move stuff in your body, that same signal is being sent to other neurons in the brain as predictions of the sensations that are gonna happen in a second from now, a moment from now, probably faster than a second. But in a couple of milliseconds, if you move.
发生的是，你的大脑首先准备行动，然后产生感觉，你的经验来源于行动的准备。所以，它是一个复制过程。就好像你的轴突发送运动信号下达脑干到脊髓，而这些轴突的副本。就像这些轴突有分支，这些侧枝只是将轴突发送到其他地方。被发送到脊髓以移动身体的信号，同样的信号也被发送到大脑中的其他神经元，作为未来几秒钟、甚至更快的时刻内即将发生的感觉的预测。但如果你移动，这个信号会在几毫秒内发生。
And so, yes, it is the case that what you feel is linked to what you do, and what you do is linked to what you feel, but not in this simple mechanistic way that neuroscientists and psychologists have been using forever. It's not like you are. You're probed by a stimulus, you see something, you hear something, and then you process it and evaluate it, and then you react to it. No, that's not what's happening. What's actually happening under the hood is that based on how things are right now, your brain makes a guess, or some guesses, and those guesses start as motor plans, and the consequence of those motor plans are predicted sensations.
所以，是的，你所感受到的与你所做的是相关联的，你所做的也与你所感受到的有关联，但并不是像神经科学家和心理学家一直在使用的那种简单的机械方式。不是你受到了一种刺激，你看到了什么，听到了什么，然后加以处理和评估，最后做出反应。不，事情并非如此。实际上，在这背后发生的是，基于当前的情况，你的大脑在做出猜测，或者一些猜测，并且这些猜测起初是运动计划的形式，而这些运动计划的后果是可以预测的感觉。
And then, of course, sensory signals are coming from the sensory surfaces, and here's to me the really the most mind-boggling thing about this whole explanation. If your sensory neurons in your sensory areas are already, so they're firing, the action potentials, the spiking has changed based on these prepared motor movements, so these are sensory predictions. And when I give talks, and on my website, I have some cool examples of how this works, you can experience it yourself. You start to experience, you hear things that aren't there, you feel vibrations in your chest that aren't there, because your brain is predicting, it's predicting these sensations. So let's say the sensations come, the sensory signals, I should say, let me say.
然后，当然，感觉信号正从感觉表面传来，这对我来说是关于整个解释最让人难以置信的事情。如果你的感觉神经元在感觉区域已经激活，也就是它们正在发放动作电位，尖峰电位的变化是基于这些准备好的运动动作，因此这些是感觉预测。在我的演讲和网站上，我有一些很酷的例子展示了这是如何运行的，你可以自己体验。你开始经历，你听到一些并不存在的声音，你在胸部感到一些并不存在的震动，因为你的大脑正在预测，预测这些感觉。所以假设感觉到来了，不，我应该说，感觉信号到来了。
So the sensory signals from the sensory surfaces of the body make it to the brain. If your neurons are already firing in a way to anticipate those signals, those signals just confirm the firing, and then they're done, they don't make it any further into the brain. So when you're predicting well, your experience is constructed completely by your brain. The signals from the sensory surfaces are there just to confirm. Or to change the signals. So if there's things you didn't anticipate, then those errors of prediction, those are the signals that are propagated and become compressed and stuff, and we have a special name for that in science. We call it learning.
因此，来自身体感官表面的感官信号传送到大脑。如果你的神经元已经以一种预期这些信号的方式发射，这些信号只是确认该发射，然后它们结束，不再向大脑深入。因此，当你预测良好时，你的体验完全由大脑构建。感官表面的信号只是用来确认。或者改变信号。因此，如果有一些事情你没有预料到，那么那些预测错误，就是被传播并压缩成形的信号，我们在科学中有一个特殊的名字。我们称之为学习。
Andy Clark is a philosopher who writes a lot about prediction, predicting brain and so on. And he talks about normal everyday experiences being a controlled hallucination. That's true. Yeah. I subscribe to that. It's a fairly adaptive in most circumstances, controlled hallucination, but it has its limitations. And I mean, what you were talking about, if I could be somewhat of a summary neuron, you can tell me if my summary is too coarse, first of all, the neural systems and the brain, let's just call it the nervous system, because we're talking about brain and body. Are incredibly dynamic. There's a bunch of inputs. Those inputs are incredibly elaborate. They get summarized. The summary prepares the body for a certain action. That's a motor commands, a pre-motor commands. And then some action may or may not be taken. But already, as soon as an action is taken or not taken, the whole state of the neural system is different. It's changed as a consequence of just what just happened.
安迪·克拉克是一位哲学家，他经常写关于预测、预测大脑等方面的文章。他谈到日常经验是一种受控幻觉，这是真实的。是的，我赞同这一观点。在大多数情况下，受控幻觉是相当适应性的，但它也有局限性。我是说，你所说的内容，如果我可以稍微总结一下，你可以告诉我我的总结是否太粗糙。首先，神经系统和大脑，让我们称之为神经系统，因为我们在讨论大脑和身体。它们是非常动态的。有许多输入。这些输入非常复杂。它们被总结。总结准备身体进行某种动作，这是一些运动命令、前运动命令。然后可能会或可能不会采取某种行动。但是，一旦采取或不采取行动，神经系统的整体状态已经发生了改变。仅仅发生的事情就会导致神经系统的整体状态发生变化。
Now, of course, when people hear that, and when I hear that, indeed, I feel like, wow, it's a tough system to study, because these are dynamical neural systems. And we have the technology to put people in functional scanners and look at what lights up. So to speak, we have the capacity to ask people how they feel based on questionnaires, but you can imagine that's incredibly crude. So then you give them like-art scales of, you know, rate from one to 10, how happy or sad you are. And so you're adding some depth and dimensionality to it, but it's incredibly crude. It's nothing like real experience. And if somebody's more verbal, less verbal, maybe they somatize more or less.
现在当人们听到这样的话时，我也感到，哇，这是一个难以研究的系统，因为这些是动态神经系统。我们有技术可以让人们进入功能扫描仪，看看哪些区域活跃。可以说，我们有能力通过问卷调查询问人们的感受，但你可以想象这是非常粗糙的。然后你让他们按照类似艺术的标尺，从1到10，来评价自己是多么快乐或悲伤。这样你就增加了一些深度和维度，但这还是非常粗糙的。它根本不像真实经验。如果有人更偏口头表达，另一个人则不太口头表达，也许他们更容易或更不容易把情绪转化为身体感受。
I mean, an example comes to mind that, occasionally you learn from social media, which often I learn from social media. And someone once said, I don't think in thoughts, I think in feels. And I thought, okay, great, you're probably also from Northern California. And then I said, wait, Andrew, stop being so judgmental. What do you mean? I mean, I'm not going to say that. And they said, I experience emotions in their mind. First, as a bodily state, then the label comes much later. That's not how it works for me. It feels fairly more integrated brain and body for me. But other people started chiming in. No, I think of emotions, I experience emotions clearly as a verbal label. It's all in their head. And so you start to realize that we might all be encoding the world slightly differently or very differently. And it's changing in time.
我的意思是，偶尔你会从社交媒体上学到东西，这经常发生在我身上。有人曾经说过，我的思维不是以思考的形式，而是以感觉的形式存在。我想，好吧，你可能也来自北加州。然后我说，等等，安德鲁，不要这么带有偏见。你是什么意思？我的意思是，我不会这么说。他们说，我在头脑中体验情绪。首先是作为一种身体状态，然后标签出现要晚得多。对我来说，感觉在大脑和身体中更融合。但其他人开始加入讨论。不，我将情感想象为一个清晰的语言标签。这在他们的头脑中。于是你开始意识到，我们可能都在以稍微不同或截然不同的方式编码这个世界。而且这种方式会随着时间而变化。
So then the question becomes, what are the anchor points in terms of our understanding of emotions that we can work with? And the following questions come to mind. Neither you nor I are clinicians as far as I know. I'm certainly not. I was actually trained as a clinician. Oh, there you go. I'm wrong again. But I haven't practiced in like really gazillions of years.
因此，问题变成了，我们在理解情绪方面可以依靠哪些锚点？接着，一些问题浮现在脑海中。据我所知，既不你也不我是临床医生。我肯定不是。我实际上接受过临床医生的培训。哦，原来如此。我又错了。但我已经好多年没行医了。
Okay, well, you're more than qualified to answer the question I'm about to ask, which is to me, there is a great conflict of information in the psychology psychiatry, and let's just call it wellness and mental health space, which is when we are feeling lousy, like not good, let's put valence on it, just lousy. I don't want in the state that we were having an emotion that we don't want to have. There's an entire category of information that says, you need to feel your feelings.
好的，你绝对有资格回答我即将要问的问题，对我来说，在心理学和精神病学领域，以及我们可以称之为健康和心理健康领域，存在着大量信息冲突。当我们感到糟糕时，比如说不好，让我们把情绪加以评价，就是糟糕。我不想处于我们不想有的情绪状态中。有一整类信息说，你需要感受自己的情绪。
You need to feel your feelings. You need to acknowledge that they're there. You need to go into the feeling, maybe even full catharsis. You need to amplify the feelings until they quote unquote leave your body. After all, Steve Jobs was into screen therapy and he helped him make sponges anger. Who knows? You get these examples. He's probably the worst example, because it seemed like he was angry a lot from what I hear.
你需要感受自己的情感。你需要承认它们的存在。你需要进入情感中，甚至可能全面宣泄。你需要放大这些情感，直到它们“离开”你的身体。毕竟，史蒂夫·乔布斯崇尚屏幕疗法，并且帮助他排解愤怒。谁知道呢？你可以从这些例子中学到东西。他可能是最糟糕的例子，因为据我所知，他似乎经常很愤怒。
But then there's another category of thought, which is, no, you need to use your ability to top down control inhibition or the cortex on lower structures. Again, I'm deliberately using crude language here to say, wait, this is an emotion. Emotions pass. This is not real. This is just a limited set of high dimensionality stuff that's been summarized. And you know what? Like, I don't need to feel this way. I can make myself feel differently. Maybe I'll go for a run. In fact, I always feel better after I go for a run.
然后还有另一种思维方式，就是，你需要利用你的能力来自上而下控制皮层对较低结构的抑制。再次，我故意使用简单的语言来说，等一下，这是一种情绪。情绪会过去。这不是真实的。这只是被总结的一组有限维度的东西。你知道吗？我没必要以这种方式感受。我可以让自己感受不同。也许我会去跑步。事实上，跑完步后我总是感觉更好。
So even as question as simple as, should we feel our feelings or should we not feel our feelings? And of course, you would hope that this would be answered appropriately such that people don't go harm other people or themselves. But assuming that they're not going to harm other people or themselves verbally or physically, then you really get yourself into a bit of a pickle.
所以，即使是一个简单的问题，我们是应该感受自己的情感还是不应该感受自己的情感呢？当然，你希望这个问题能够得到适当回答，以确保人们不会伤害其他人或伤害自己。但假设他们不会以言语或身体伤害他人或自己，那么你就会陷入一种进退两难的境地。
Like, we don't understand what to do with emotions. Hours or other people's, because clearly, we don't understand emotions per se. So I would say, I'm going to answer your question. And then I want to also pick it the word, I want to pick it an assumption. Because it's come up actually a couple of times.
就像，我们不知道如何处理情绪。无论是自己的还是其他人的，因为明显地，我们并不真正了解情绪。所以我会说，我要回答你的问题。然后我还想选择这个词，我想拿出一个假设。因为这实际上已经出现过几次了。
And there's something super important in your descriptions that I just want to pull out for the listeners, because I think it's really important. And you're doing it very naturally. But I think some people, it just bears commenting. So let me just deal with the question of, should we feel our feelings or use our words? We say to little kids, use your words. Like, don't throw a tantrum, right? But then there's also this other feeling, well, it'll just feel, it's important to feel, and you don't want to get it, have it be pent up. And you're using your body and like, hit a pillow.
在你的描述中有一些非常重要的东西，我想为听众们挑出来，因为我认为这很重要。你很自然地做到了这一点。但我认为一些人可能需要注意。所以让我来谈谈一个问题，我们应该感受情绪还是用言语表达？我们对小孩子说，用言语表达。不要发脾气，对吧？但同时也有另一种情感，感受情绪很重要，不要憋在心里。你可以利用身体，比如打一个枕头。
I mean, there's screen therapy, bite the pillow, screen the pillow, tear the pillow. I mean, you can pay $5,000 for a week of doing this. And they'll tell you you're going to feel better at the end. So the answer there is it's the wrong question. Like, flexibility is important for everything always, right? So first of all, you don't have emotions in your body. Your body doesn't keep the score, you know?
我的意思是，有屏幕疗法，咬枕头、用屏幕翻动枕头，撕开枕头。我的意思是，你可以支付5000美元进行一周的这种活动。他们会告诉你最后会感觉更好。所以答案是这个问题本身就是错的。灵活性对于所有事情都很重要，对吧？首先，你的身体里没有情绪。你的身体不会记得分数。
Yeah, great book title because it's super catchy. But with all due respect to, I think, the important work of Vendricle, I think it oversimplified and led people to believe that their back pain was trauma and that all trauma is somatocized. And it's not. No, it's not. But I would go further and say, like, first of all, your body does keep the score, your brain keeps the score, your body is the scorecard. That's super important.
是的，这个书名很棒，因为它非常吸引人。但我要尊重Vendricle的重要工作，我认为这本书过于简化，让人们误以为他们的背部疼痛是创伤，并且所有创伤都是身体表现出来的。事实并非如此。不，不是这样的。但我想进一步说，首先，你的身体确实记住了所有事情，你的大脑也会记住，你的身体就是记分卡。这点非常重要。
And he has done really important work, but his explanations for why things work is scientifically incorrect. It just is because we don't feel things in our bodies. We, everything we feel, we feel in our brains. We don't see in our eyes, we see in our brains. Of course, we need our eyes, but we don't see in our eyes, just like if you pinch your hand, take skin and pinch between two fingers, the skin, you don't feel that actually in your hand, you feel it in your brain. That's the magic of the brain in a sense.
他所做的工作确实很重要，但他对事物运作原理的解释在科学上是错误的。这是因为我们并不是在身体里感受事物。我们所感受的一切都是在大脑中感受的。我们不是用眼睛看东西，而是用大脑看东西。当然，我们需要眼睛，但我们并不是用眼睛看东西，就像当你掐一下手，捏住两根手指之间的皮肤，你实际上并不是在手上感觉到，而是在大脑中感觉到。这就是大脑的魔力所在。
So what I would say is, it depends on the situation and what your goal is. Sometimes it is useful to use your words and sometimes it is useful to go for a run. It just depends on what your goal is. Well, both those cases that you gave, both those examples, excuse me, it's a way of shifting off the emotion. I guess what I'm asking is, well, sometimes you don't want to shift off the emotion. Sometimes the most, sometimes the wisest thing to do is live in the emotion. That is, sometimes discomfort, sometimes when something feels bad, it doesn't mean something is wrong. It just might mean that you're doing something hard.
所以我想说的是，这取决于情况和你的目标是什么。有时候使用言辞是有益的，有时候去跑步也是有用的。这只取决于你的目标是什么。嗯，你提供的那两种情况，抱歉，都是一种转移情绪的方式。我想问的是，有时候你并不想转移情绪。有时候最明智的做法是去经历情绪。也就是说，有时候不适应，有时候感觉不好，并不意味着有什么不对。这可能只是表示你正在做一些艰难的事情。
Well, earlier I wrote when you were talking about the broad categorization of emotions, I wrote down, you know, simple is good when it feels good. You're like, I just feel really great, but then when things feel lousy, that's where nuance could be beneficial. Yeah, absolutely, because emotions are recipes for action. When you go from feeling bad to feeling angry or sad, it's a recipe for action. And I would also say, and this is an analogy, but I sort of, I stand by it.
嗯，早些时候我写下了一句话，当你谈到广泛情绪分类时，我写下了，你知道，简单的感觉很好。当你感觉很棒时，你会说，我感觉真的很棒，但当事情感觉糟糕时，细微的区别就会变得有益了。是的，因为情绪是行动的配方。当你从感觉不好转变为愤怒或悲伤时，这就成了一种行动的配方。而且我也要说，这是一个比喻，但我坚信其有效。
You know, when I was, I had major back surgery a couple of years ago, and I know something about chronic pain, it's not my area of study, but I know something about it because I've, and reanalyzed some data sets and I've read a lot. So I'm not an expert, but, you know, I have ideas. And I thought to myself, well, I just, I don't wanna end up with chronic back pain. So what I did was I made sure, after I got through the first couple of weeks, where I really needed oxycodone so that I could walk, you know, I was up and walking the same day I had surgery, if you could call it walking, as sort of a euphemism for like hobbling around on a, with a walker, but I made sure that I felt the pain.
你知道，几年前我接受了一次严重的背部手术，我对慢性疼痛有所了解，虽然不是我研究的领域，但我了解一些，因为我重新分析了一些数据集并阅读了很多资料。所以我并不是专家，但是我有一些想法。我想到，我不想最终患上慢性背部疼痛。所以我做的是确保在经过头几周后，我真的需要氧可酮以便行走时，我立刻开始行走，尽管你可以称之为行走，这只是用来形容困难地用助行器走动，但我确保我感受到了疼痛。
That is, I dosed myself with discomfort quite deliberately, because I wanted to make sure that, I'm sorry for using, you know, Cartesian language. I don't know how else to say this. I wanted my brain to be taking in the prediction error. I wanted my brain to feel the, to, I wanted to focus attention on the changing disc, you know, the changing discomfort over time, because it meant that my body was healing as the discomfort got less, but my brain would never feel that discomfort changing if I took painkillers. And because the prediction error, the things that the brain doesn't predict, are teaching signals.
换句话说，我故意让自己感受不适，因为我想确保，抱歉用了笛卡尔的术语。我不知道怎么说。我想让我的大脑接受预测错误。我想让我的大脑感受到，我想要专注于随着时间变化而改变的不适感，因为这意味着我的身体在不适感减轻时正在愈合，但如果我服用止痛药，我大脑永远不会感受到这种不适感的变化。因为预测错误，大脑无法预测的事情，是教学信号。
And I think it's true also in your life. Like sometimes you wanna feel it, because you wanna feel the discomfort, because it's instructive about something, and sometimes it's not. And that's, maybe that's not really an answer, but the only way that you can figure that out for yourself is to do it sometimes. If you're always getting rid of discomfort, you never know when it's useful, and it is useful sometimes. But now I wanna get to this point that I was making before, like we are talking about feeling an emotion, like they're interchangeable, and they're not, right? So here's how I would say it. Your brain is always regulating your body, 24-7. And your body is always sending sensory signals back to the brain about the sensory state of the body. And our nervous systems aren't wired for us to experience those sensory changes that are happening in the body in any degree of detail. We're just not. And it's a good thing.
在你的生活中，我认为这也是真实的。有时候你想要感受一下，因为你想要感受一下不适，因为这对某件事情有启发，有时候则不然。也许这不是一个很明确的答案，但你要找出答案的唯一途径就是有时候去尝试一下。如果你总是去摆脱不适感，你就不知道它什么时候是有用的，有时候它是有用的。但现在我想说的是，我们讨论的是感受一种情绪，它们是可以互换的，但也不完全正确，对吧？这就是我要表达的方式。你的大脑一直在调节你的身体，24小时不停。而你的身体也一直在向大脑发送有关身体感觉状态的感官信号。我们的神经系统并不是为了我们以任何详细程度去经历那些在身体中发生的感觉变化而编排的。这是一件好事。
Like right now, as we talk here, our hearts are beating, and our pancreas is squishing stuff out, you know, liver is filtering, and oxygen concentrations are changing. Like, oh, there's a whole drama going on inside each of us, and our listeners, and we're largely, we're not aware, and I hope our listeners aren't aware, because if they were, they would not be listening to anything we were saying. They'd be completely, you know, in raptured or in discomfort at what's going on inside them. Instead, the brain creates a low dimensional summary, this gross kind of like barometer, which is feeling, affective feeling, we call it, or you could call it mood, but scientists call it affect with an A, feeling pleasant, feeling unpleasant, feeling worked up, feeling calm, feeling comfortable, feeling uncomfortable. It's kind of a general barometer of the state of the body, and it's not emotion.
就像现在，当我们聊天的时候，我们的心脏在跳动，胰腺在分泌物质，肝脏在过滤血液，氧气浓度在变化。就像，噢，我们每个人内部都发生着一场戏剧，我们的听众也是一样，我们大部分时间并不知道，我希望我们的听众也不知道，因为如果他们知道，他们就不会听我们说的任何话了。他们会完全沉浸在内部正在发生的事情中，感到不适。相反，大脑会创建一个低维摘要，一种粗略的气象计，也就是情感感受，我们称之为情绪，但科学家称之为情感。感到愉快，感到不愉快，感到激动，感到平静，感到舒适，感到不舒适。这是一种对身体状态的一般性评估，而不是情绪。
That, those feelings, those features of feeling are features of consciousness, because your brain is always regulating your body. Your body's always sending signals back to the brain. The brain is always representing them in this low dimensional way. Whether you're paying attention or not, like whether the brain is focusing, it's, you know, applying attention to those neurons or not, those signals are there. And even when we're not emotional, you know, like if you're driving on the highway and somebody cuts you off and you think, what an asshole, the ass-holness of that person, that intensity of that negative affect, is you experience it as a property of that person, but really it's coming from you. It's not a property of that person.
这些情感，这些感觉特征都是意识的特征，因为你的大脑总是调节着你的身体。你的身体总是向大脑发送信号。大脑总是以这种低维度的方式代表它们。无论你是否在注意力集中，是否大脑正在关注，是否大脑正在注意那些神经元，那些信号都在那里。即使我们不情绪化，比如你开车在高速公路上，有人突然抢道而行，你会想，真是个混蛋，那个人混蛋的程度，那种负面情绪的强度，你会认为是那个人的特性，但实际上它来源于你自己，不是那个人的特性。
That's a feature of your experience in that moment. And affect is always there. Sometimes it's in the foreground, sometimes it's in the background, but it's always there. And it's a summary of physical things, which is why it helps. To, if you take ibuprofen or Tylenol, it will, I mean, study show, it reduces negative feeling.
这是你当时体验的一个特点。情绪总是存在的。有时它在前台，有时它在后台，但它总是存在的。它是身体感受的总结，因此它有帮助作用。比如，如果你服用布洛芬或泰诺尔，研究表明它会减少负面情绪。
If you go for a run, if you go for a walk, if you shift your attention to the outside world, then the features that of experience that are derived from the inside world diminish. That's why going for a run helps or going for a walk helps or, you know, getting sleep helps, right? These are all things where you're changing the state of your body and so the sensory state of your body is changing and so your affect changes.
如果你跑步，散步，把注意力转向外部世界，那么来自内部世界的经验特征就会减少。这就是为什么跑步或散步有帮助，或者你知道，睡个好觉有帮助，对吧？这些都是改变身体状态的事情，因此身体的感觉状态正在改变，你的情绪也会改变。
But emotions are the story that the brain tells about what caused the sensory signals that affect derives from. So what caused those changes? What do I need to do about those changes? That's, it's a much bigger event than just these features of experience which are all features of consciousness, which are always there. They're always there.
但情绪是大脑关于影响来源的感觉信号所产生的故事。那么是什么引起了这些变化？我需要采取什么行动来应对这些变化？这实际上是一个比经验特征更重要的事件，这些特征都是意识的一部分，它们总是存在的。它们总是存在。
And in fact, in our culture, we pathologize people when they just experience their bodies as physical sensations and not as emotions. Like we say, oh, that person is so much somatocizing or somatizing. They're not, they should, they're really, they should be experiencing a motion but really they're, you know, just experiencing a stomachache and that's bad. But that's actually a judgment call that is probably sometimes wrong. Sometimes it's probably better to experience a stomachache. Sometimes it's more productive.
事实上，在我们的文化中，当人们只将自己的身体感受视为生理感觉而非情绪时，我们会将他们病态化。比如我们会说，哦，那个人总是以身体症状发泄情绪。他们不应该这样，他们真的应该体验情绪，但实际上，他们只是感受到了胃痛，这是不好的。但这实际上是一个可能有时候错误的判断。有时候，感受一下胃痛可能会更有益，有时候更有生产力。
Part of being emotionally intelligent is knowing when not to construct an emotion. You know, like right before the COVID pandemic was announced officially, I was in New Zealand giving talks and my daughter who was in college at that time was flying literally like, I think less than a week before the pandemic was announced, she got on a plane and she flew to New Zealand to meet me because it was spring break. And I always would bring her with me on spring break. And in that, and I remember really vividly, I was in New Zealand, there was only one case, one case of COVID in New Zealand at that point.
情商高就意味着知道什么时候不要制造情绪。你知道的，就在COVID大流行正式宣布前，我在新西兰演讲，那时我的女儿正在上大学，就在大流行宣布不到一周之前，她登上飞机飞往新西兰见我，因为那是春假。我总是会在春假时带上她。我记得很清楚，当时新西兰只有一个COVID病例。
And I got on the phone to my husband and I said, I'm experiencing a very high level of arousal and it's very, very unpleasant. Now, my husband knows me very well and he said, yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty. And I said, I know. Now, he didn't say to me, well, you're anxious and you just don't really know it because I wasn't anxious. I was feeling uncertain and as you know, or maybe people know that when there's a lot of uncertainty, there's also a lot of arousal because the brain is attempting to learn and the neuromodulators that are important for learning new things happen to also cause a subjective sense of arousal.
我给丈夫打电话说，我经历了非常高的激动，感觉非常不舒服。我的丈夫非常了解我，他说，是的，有很多不确定性。我说，我知道。他没有对我说，你很焦虑，只是不自知，因为我并不焦虑。我只是感到不确定而已，大家都知道，当有很多不确定性时，也会产生很大的激动，因为大脑正在尝试学习，而对学习新事物至关重要的神经调节物质也恰好会引起主观感觉上的激动。
And they actually also modulate your autonomic nervous system so your heart can beat faster and whatever. Our go to explanation for what that is is to experience that arousal as anxiety. But I was uncertain. And remember that how your brain, the story it's telling itself, the category it's making is a plan for action. Well, what do you do in anxiety and fear? You freeze or you run away. What do you do in uncertainty? You forage for information. You tolerate the discomfort and you forage for information, which is what I was doing when I called and said, what should we do? Should I meet her at the airport and turn around and come back? Or should we have a vacation?
它们实际上也调节你的自主神经系统，让你的心跳加快等等。我们常常将这种情感诠释为焦虑。但我并不确定。记住你的大脑，它所讲述的故事，所做的分类都是对行动的计划。那么，在焦虑和恐惧中你会怎么做？你会冻结或者逃跑。在不确定中你会做什么？你会寻找信息。你会忍受不适，寻找信息，这就是我打电话询问应该怎么做时的做法。我应该在机场见她然后立刻回来吗？还是我们应该度假？
Like I don't really know. And you know, what I ended up doing was foraging for information for another couple of days and then made a split second decision in the air when we were flying from one island to the other and might just rerouted us and we went home. And then the borders closed like two days later. But my point is that this is not just psychological mumbo jumbo. You can train yourself to experience your heart pounding in your chest as determination. But when my daughter, this is all in how emotions are made these examples, but they're true.
就像我并不真的知道一样。你知道，我最终又花了几天时间搜寻信息，然后在我们从一个岛飞向另一个岛的途中，我在空中做出了一个瞬间决定，可能是重新规划了我们的路线，然后我们回家了。然后两天后边境就关闭了。但我的观点是，这不仅仅是心理学上的术语。你可以训练自己把心脏砰砰跳作为决心来体验。但当我女儿，这些都是情绪如何产生的例子，但它们是真实的。
I mean, my daughter, this book I wrote a couple years ago, when my daughter was 12 years old, she was testing for a black belt in karate. She was five feet tall, not even. And she was testing against these like massively large adolescent boys, okay? Who were like a foot taller than her. And her sensei, who was a tenth degree black belt, didn't say to her, don't be afraid. He said, get your butterflies flying in formation. And I was like in rapture, I was like, oh my God, this guy is totally brilliant. That is the best, you know, meaning to give to arousal that changes the meaning of it.
我的意思是，我女儿，这本我写了几年前的书，当时我女儿12岁，她正在测试空手道黑带。她身高五英尺，不到。她要和这些比她高一个头的巨大青少年男孩们竞争。她的教练是一个十段黑带，他没有告诉她不要害怕，而是告诉她，让你的蝴蝶队列飞行。我当时非常着迷，我认为，哇，这个家伙太聪明了。这就是最好的方式，改变激动时的意义。
What you do when you create an emotion is you're giving meaning to those affective feelings. And you have more control than you might think in how you do that. You can do it by changing the physical state that gives rise to those feelings, but you can also change it by learning more, how to make more categories and how to make them more fluidly so that you do something different.
当你创造一种情绪时，你其实是给那些情绪感受赋予意义。你比想象中更能控制这个过程。你可以通过改变导致这些感受的身体状态来做到这一点，但你也可以通过学习更多，学习如何划分更多的类别，并使它们更流畅地转变，从而做出不同的事情。
And it's not that things will necessarily feel any more unpleasant or any less, or any more pleasant, it's that the feeling becomes a source of wisdom. It's a cue to do something different. This is a case where I absolutely believe that knowledge about how emotions and affect and states of the brain and body work, which is what you're beautifully describing for people today, is extremely useful in and of itself. And I think, frankly, it's a refreshing and welcome departure from a lot of the conversations that we normally have on this podcast where, you know, we talk a lot about protocols, we talk about tools, so I think it's that people can do ways they can implement the knowledge.
并不是说事情会感觉更不愉快或更不愉快，或更愉快，而是这种感觉变成了智慧的源泉。这是一个做出不同选择的暗示。我坚信对情绪、情感、大脑和身体状态的工作方式的了解，就像你今天为大家描述的那样，本身就非常有用。老实说，这是一个令人耳目一新而且受欢迎的离开，与我们通常在这个播客上进行的许多谈话相比，您知道，我们经常谈论协议，我们谈论工具，所以我认为人们可以采用知识的方式来实施。
And here, this is certainly one of those cases as well, but it's a beautiful one and a very important one where the knowledge itself, just the knowledge of additional words for different states. I love the example of putting butterflies into formation because it inherent to that is that you're not trying to get rid of the butterflies, quite the opposite. You're deploying them in certain ways. And there's an action step and a psychological step there, of course, that's required, but that it isn't, you know, if you morning sunlight for an average of 10 minutes to set your circadian rhythm, which is something that I say over and over again, I'll go into the grave saying that, they'll probably put a window over my grave so sunlight can get in at this point, but which would be fine with me.
这绝对是一个很好的例子，也是一个非常重要的例子，其中知识本身就是关键，即了解不同状态的额外词汇。我喜欢将蝴蝶排成队形的例子，因为其中的内在意义是你并不是想要摆脱蝴蝶，恰恰相反，你是在特定的方式下部署它们。当然，那里需要一个行动步骤和一个心理步骤，但不是，你早晨要花10分钟浏览吸光以调整你的昼夜节律，这是我一再强调的事情，我会一直这样说到永远，他们可能会在我的坟墓上加一扇窗户让阳光照进来，但对我来说也没关系。
But in any case, knowledge is power, something that we hear, but it's not always true. Often it's knowledge is power, but you need to do X, Y, and Z in a certain order. But here, what you've provided and you're continuing to provide is knowledge that people can use that real estate within their brain, I'm deliberately not giving it a name because it's distributed real estate that allows them to take an unpleasant feeling and work with it, that it has more dimensionality than we probably realize. That's becoming clear to me that rarely, if ever, is there less dimensionality.
然而，在任何情况下，知识就是力量，这是我们经常听到的话，但并不总是正确的。通常情况下，知识确实是力量，但你需要按照某种顺序去做X、Y和Z。在这里，你提供的和继续提供的是人们可以利用的知识，它就像他们大脑中的实际房地产，我故意没有给它一个名字，因为这是分布式的房地产，它让人们能够处理令人不愉快的感觉，让我们意识到它具有比我们意识到的更多维度。我开始清楚地意识到，很少有事情是缺乏维度的。
You can always give it more dimensionality by just shifting your attention. And you can practice this really, so, there's a story that I tell about when the brief moment when I tried to learn how to paint. And so there's an object like a cup and you have this three-dimensional object and you wanna render it on a two-dimensional canvas. So you could just try to draw the cup and then what you get is a pretty shitty looking cup. But what a realist painter will teach you to do is to take the cup and to break it apart into pieces of light.
你可以通过转移注意力来给事物增加更多的立体感。你可以真正练习这一点，我会讲一个关于我试图学习绘画的短暂时刻的故事。比如，有一个杯子这样的物体，你有一个三维物体，你想在一个二维画布上渲染它。你可以尝试只画这个杯子，结果你得到的是一个非常糟糕看起来的杯子。但现实主义画家会教你的是把这个杯子拆分成光的片段。
And then what you try to paint are the pieces of light. So you're transferring, your first what you're doing is you're taking this very low-dimensional course object called a cup and you're breaking it into tiny little pieces of light. Which is what the visual system does. What the visual system does. And so what you're doing is you're categorizing it differently in order to emphasize the features that are more high-dimensional, that are in there, right?
然后你尝试描绘的是光的碎片。所以你在转移，你首先要做的是将这个非常低维度的物体（如杯子）分解成微小的光碎片。这就是视觉系统的工作原理。你所做的就是以不同方式对其进行分类，以突出其中更高维度的特征，对吧？
They're in there, in the brain. But what you're doing essentially is you're having, the brain, your brain is applying attention to basically focus more on those details. And then you transfer the details onto the two-dimensional canvas. And what you get is a pretty decent looking three-dimensional cup on a two-dimensional canvas. Unless you're me. And then it still looks shitty. And so maybe I'll take it up again sometime in the future.
它们在脑海里。但基本上你所做的是，大脑，你的大脑正在将注意力应用于更多地关注这些细节。然后你将这些细节转移到二维画布上。你会得到一个在二维画布上看起来相当不错的三维杯子。除非你是我。那么它看起来仍然糟糕。也许以后我会再试一试。
But my point is that you can do that with your own sensory condition of your body. In emotion, you can deliberately focus on what your heart is doing to the best of your ability that you can sense it, right? Or you can deliberately focus on your breathing or you could deliberately focus on what your muscles or how tense they feel. You can change the dimensionality of your experience by the shifting of your attention. Love it.
但是我的观点是，你可以用自己身体的感官条件来做到这一点。在情绪上，你可以有意识地专注于你的心脏正在做什么，尽你所能去感知它，对吧？或者你可以有意识地专注于你的呼吸，或者你可以有意识地专注于你的肌肉或者它们的紧张感。通过转移你的注意力，你可以改变你体验的维度。喜欢这种感觉。
And forgive me for giving another example, but I think it's one that will resonate with both of us and hopefully with our listeners as well, which is the great Oliver Sacks, neurologist and author, talked about and wrote about, he'd worked with these patients that were either had locked-in syndrome or severe autism or severe Tourette's or Parkinson's. And most people would, even clinicians who specialize in those areas would look at those people and say that they're living in a diminished world. It's their lack capacities that other people have.
请原谅我再举一个例子，但我觉得这个例子对我们两个以及我们的听众都会有共鸣，希望如此，这就是伟大的神经学家和作家奥利弗·萨克斯，他谈论和写作的内容，他曾与患有锁定综合症、严重自闭症、严重抽动症或帕金森病的患者工作过。大多数人，甚至是那些专门研究这些领域的临床医生，会看着这些人，并说他们生活在一个弱化的世界里。他们缺乏其他人所具有的能力。
And it's all about the absence of certain abilities. And then what he did eventually was incredible. He loved animals. So he would spend time thinking about what it would be like, for instance, to be a bat, hanging in the corner of a room and experience the room, not through vision, but mainly through echolocation. And he would spend a lot of time thinking about that. He also did a lot of drugs at one point. His career and stopped, because they were very destructive drugs, not just psychedelics, but also methamphetamine. So yes, he has that. But he eventually changed his practice to trying to experience human emotion, but first think about animal sensory experience. And he would do that for lots of different types of animals, octopuses and bats and all these different things. And then it allowed him, in his words, it allowed him to then interact with patients in a way where he could feel, maybe even empathize a little bit with how they experienced life. And then he would write books about it in a way, and here I'm borrowing someone else's words that storied these people into almost greater, larger than life characters. And now of course, he wasn't trying to detract from their suffering, but he was trying to give people an understanding of what that suffering was like through their actual experience. And he did it, in my opinion, and the opinion meant other people, a masterful job in doing that. A masterful job.
这一切都与某些能力的缺乏有关。最终他所做的事情令人难以置信。他热爱动物。所以他会花时间思考，比如说，作为一只蝙蝠悬挂在房间的角落，体验整个房间，不是通过视觉，而是主要通过回声定位。他会花很多时间思考这个问题。他曾经也吸毒过。因为那些毒品非常有害，不仅仅是致幻剂，还有甲基苯丙胺等。是的，他有那个阶段。但最终他改变了他的做法，试图体验人类情感，但首先思考动物的感官体验。他会为许多不同类型的动物做这样的事情，章鱼、蝙蝠以及其他各种动物。然后他说，这让他能以一种他能感受、甚至与他们稍微共鸣一下的方式与患者互动。然后他会以某种方式写下他们的故事，借用别人的话来讲述这些人，使他们成为近乎传奇般的人物。当然，他并不是想减轻他们的痛苦，而是试图让人们通过实际经历理解那种痛苦是什么样的。在我的看法和其他人的看法中，他在这方面做得非常出色，一个高超的工作。高超的工作。
But it came through much in the same way that your art teacher said, pay attention to the way the changes in light across the object as opposed to trying to draw the object themselves. So the takeaway here that I think we're arriving at is that you've provided, is that if we add dimensionality to our description of or experience of the sensory inputs, and there's a ton of it to reach to, and we maybe even come up with some new internal labels or language-based labels that we can experience the world in much richer and much more adaptive ways. Absolutely.
但是它的表达方式很大程度上与你的美术老师所说的类似，要注意物体光线变化而不是试图画出物体本身。所以我认为我们得出的结论是，如果我们给我们对感官输入的描述或体验增加立体感，而且这里有很多可以利用的资源，我们甚至可以创造出一些新的内部标签或基于语言的标签，让我们以更丰富、更适应性更强的方式体验世界。绝对是这样。
And I love your stories, and I love this story in particular about Oliver Sacks, because it resonates with my experience when I was reading Ed Young's new book. Oh. At first he wrote, We Contained Multitudes, which I think one of Pulitzer, and then What Is The Recent World? Right, with the Animals. An Immense World. An Immense World. And what I was thinking was, you know, first of all, it's a masterful, masterful, masterful book. I wish I had written that book. I wrote him a fan letter. I was like, this is an amazing book. It's an amazing book.
我喜欢你的故事，特别是这个关于奥利弗·萨克斯的故事，因为它与我读艾德·杨的新书时的经历 resonates 。最初他写了《我们包含的多元化》，我认为这是普利策奖其中之一，然后是《最近的世界是什么?》对，与动物相关。一个巨大的世界。一个巨大的世界。 我在想的是，首先，这是一本技艺高超的书。我希望我能写出那本书。我给他写了一封粉丝信。我说，这是一本了不起的书。是一本了不起的书。
But because he helps you experience, so what I wanna say is this, that there are all these animals that have different sensory surfaces than we do, and they can detect signals in the world that are not relevant to us, because we don't have sensory surfaces for them. And it reminds you, first of all that, what you experience as reality is really not in the world alone, and it's not in your head alone. It is in the transaction between the two. You know, the neurons in your brain and in your nervous system are also part of the reality. And so reality is the transaction. Reality are the features that are the transaction between signals in the world and signals in your brain. And the parts of the world that some other animals experience that we will never experience, they're not really part of our reality, because they don't interact with any of the, anything that we have. But for those animals, it's part of their niche. It's part of their, you know, niche is just the word for the parts of the world that matter to you, basically.
因为他帮助你体验，所以我想说的是，有许多动物具有不同于我们的感官表面，它们可以检测我们无法感知的信号，因为我们没有相关的感官表面。这提醒你，首先，你所体验的现实实际上并不仅仅存在于世界中，也不仅仅存在于你的脑海中。它存在于两者之间的互动当中。你知道，你大脑和神经系统中的神经元也是现实的一部分。因此，现实就是这个交流。现实是世界中的信号与你的大脑中的信号之间的互动。其他一些动物体验到的我们永远不会体验到的世界的部分，实际上不是我们现实的一部分，因为它们与我们所拥有的任何东西都没有互动。但对于这些动物来说，它是它们活动领域的一部分。"生态位"就是指基本上对你有重要性的世界的部分。
And I was thinking that if people read this book and you know, maybe we'll help them have empathy for other people who don't have minds like theirs, and who don't experience the world in the way that they do, your description of what Oliver Sacks, what his actions were and his goals, it did occur to me that this book by Ed Yong would be a great tool for helping people to understand that the way that they experience the world, it might be different than how other people experience the world. And even a little bit of a window on that, it would be a good thing. So I'd like to ask you more about this word affect. And then I'd like to discuss how things that we do or don't do might be useful for putting us in broad categories of affect so that we might experience a particular arrays of emotions. So this is my attempt to understand affect in an effort to think about some actionable items. Absolutely. I love the word affect the way you described it.
我在想，如果人们阅读这本书，也许我们会帮助他们对那些思维方式不同、感知世界方式与他们不同的人有更多同情心。你描述奥利弗·萨克斯的行动和目标时，我想到了，这本艾德·杨的书可能是帮助人们理解自己感知世界方式与他人不同的一个很好工具。即使只是一点点了解，这也是一件好事。所以我想问你更多关于"情感"这个词。然后我想讨论我们所做或未做的事情可能如何帮助我们归类成不同的情感类型，以便我们能体验到特定的情绪。这是我尝试理解情感，并思考一些行动性项目的努力。完全同意。我喜欢你描述的"情感"这个词的方式。
We're setting up a potential or a series of potentialities for different emotions to occur. I make it a point to get sunlight in my eyes in the morning to try and wake up my brain and body because indeed it does that. Broadly speaking, I make an effort to get good sleep at night because that makes everything better. Absolutely. And when I'm not sleeping well or enough, it makes everything worse. This is non-clinical, non-nuanced language. But I think most people when they hear affect and they think about the examples I just gave, kind of understand like, yeah, like when a kid is tired or like a kid, they get cranky. When we're sleep-differ, I do get cranky. Indeed there are times when I'm sleep-deprived and little things great on me.
我们设置了各种潜在情绪的可能性，旨在引发不同的情感。我特意在早上让阳光照进我的眼睛，以尝试唤醒我的大脑和身体，因为事实上它确实起到了这个作用。总的来说，我会努力保证晚上睡个好觉，因为这会让一切变得更好。绝对是如此。当我睡眠不好或者睡眠不足时，一切都会变得更糟。这仅是一种非临床、非细致的措辞。但我认为大多数人听到情绪反应时，会想到我刚刚给出的例子，大概会理解，是的，就像一个孩子累了或者情绪不好时，他们会变得暴躁。当我睡眠不足时，确实会发生这种情况，甚至有时候我睡眠不足时，一点小事就会惹恼我。
They're like a splinter, just feels super annoying and maybe even painful. But when I'm well rested, things are going better. It's not that bad. So tell us more about affect because I think it's a really important anchor point for us to understand emotions in ourselves and other people. Neuroscientists think about the sensory systems for touch and proprioception, which we call somatosensation, as being in the service of motor movement, skeletal motor movements. Really our sense of touch and even vision actually also works this way. And actually audition does too.
他们就像是一根刺，感觉超级烦人，甚至可能很痛苦。但当我休息充分时，情况会好转。并不是那么糟糕。所以告诉我们更多关于情绪的影响，因为我认为这是我们了解自己和他人情绪的一个非常重要的锚点。神经科学家认为触觉和本体感觉这些称为体感的感觉系统是为了肌肉运动和骨骼运动而存在的。实际上，我们的触觉甚至视觉也是这样工作的。而听觉也是这样。
These senses actually serve in the brain's ability to control the movements of the body. And the same thing is true for the regulating the systems of the body. So brains, one of their fundamental jobs are to coordinate and regulate the systems inside your body, your heart, your lungs, your gut, all the moving parts. And the information, the sensory signals that those organs and tissues and so on send back to the brain. As I said before, those sensory signals are important to the brain's ability to regulate the body, but we don't feel them directly.
这些感官实际上帮助大脑控制身体的运动。同样，它们也负责调节身体系统的功能。因此，大脑的一个基本功能是协调并调节身体内部的系统，如心脏、肺部、肠道等所有活动部位。这些器官和组织发回的感觉信号是大脑调节身体的重要依据，但我们并不能直接感觉到它们。
We usually experience them as affective feelings, these very simple physical sorts of feelings. And then we elaborate them in various ways. When they get very intense, those are the moments when the brain creates a motion out of them. So the brain's regulation of the body, the predictive regulation of the body, is the technical term is allostasis. But when I'm explaining this to the public, I use a metaphor. And all metaphors are wrong, but some metaphors are less wrong and useful.
通常我们将它们体验为情感，就是那种非常简单的身体感觉。然后我们会以各种方式加以展开。当它们变得非常强烈时，大脑将会从中产生一种动作。所以大脑对身体的调节，对身体的预测性调节，技术术语是“异态平衡”。但当我向公众解释时，我使用一个比喻。所有的比喻都是不准确的，但有些比喻更不准确而且有用。
So the metaphor that I use is, your brain is running a budget for your body. And it's not budgeting money, it's budgeting glucose and salt and oxygen and water and all the nutrients that you need to stay alive and well. And so you can think about withdrawals from that budget, like burning glucose or using oxygen. You can think about deposits, like sleeping and eating. You can think about savings. So when you're with a friend who you trust and everything you do actually is just slightly less metabolically expensive, right?
因此，我使用的隐喻是，你的大脑为你的身体运行着一个预算。它不是为金钱进行预算，而是为葡萄糖、盐、氧气、水和所有维持生命和健康所需的营养品进行预算。因此，你可以将从预算中取款看作是燃烧葡萄糖或使用氧气。你可以将存款看作是睡觉和进食。你可以考虑储蓄。所以当你和一个信任的朋友在一起时，你们所做的一切实际上都稍微减少了代谢开销，对吧？
And you can also think about taxes. Like if you are stress, socially stressed, within two hours of eating a meal, that same meal will cost you and the equivalent of 104 more calories in the inefficiency that you will metabolize it because of that stress. Many will burn more energy. You'll be more inefficient in metabolizing the food. So it's as if you had eaten 104 more calories. Oh, so I had exactly backwards. And so over the course of a year, that's 11 pounds.
而且你还可以考虑税收的问题。比如，如果你处于压力或社交紧张状态，那么在吃完一顿饭两个小时内，由于压力导致代谢不良，同样的一顿饭会让你消耗相当于多出104卡路里的能量。许多人会燃烧更多的能量。你的食物代谢效率会降低。所以实际上就好像你多吃了104卡路里一样。噢，我完全搞反了。所以一年下来，这就是11磅体重增加的原因。
So when we say that people are taxing on us? Yeah, we'd like it's literally. Their language works. Their language works. So the way I describe it is that you can think about affect as a quick and dirty summary of the state of your body budget. If things are going reasonably well, then you'll feel okay. You might even feel pleasant. If you're running a deficit in your body budget, then you're gonna feel fatigued or distressed. And that doesn't mean something is necessarily wrong. Like for example, when you exercise, you get to a certain point where you've reached your ventilatory load. Usually it's like 20 minutes in or 10 minutes in or whatever, depending on how hard you're working.
所以当我们说人们让我们感到累的时候？是的，我们是说字面意思。他们的语言起到作用。所以我描述的方式是，你可以把情感看作是你身体预算状态的一个简短而粗略的总结。如果事情进行得相当顺利，你就会感觉还好。甚至可能感到愉快。如果你的身体预算出现赤字，那么你就会感到疲惫或烦躁。这并不意味着一定有什么问题。比如，当你运动时，你会达到呼吸负荷的某个点。通常是运动进行20分钟或10分钟之后，或者取决于你的运动强度。
And you start to feel unpleasant and fatigued. But that doesn't mean that something's wrong. That just means that you're working really hard and you have to push through it. And then when you drink water and you know you eat afterwards and replenish and then you're fine. In fact, you're better. It's a way of building a better, stronger future you. So affect is basically, you know, when things, when you're feeling really worked up, it probably means that something's uncertain somewhere. So I just think about these as like quick and dirty ways of thinking about what your affect means.
当你开始感觉不舒服和疲劳时，这并不意味着出了什么问题。这只是表示你正在非常努力地工作，你必须撑过去。然后当你喝水，吃东西补充营养后，你就会恢复过来。事实上，你会感觉更好。这是构建一个更好、更强大未来自己的方法。所以情感基本上是说，当事情让你感到紧张时，很可能意味着某个地方有不确定的因素。所以我认为这些只是简单粗暴的方式来思考你的情感意味着什么。
And then oftentimes, as we've said before, a motion regulation that is controlling a motion really actually. It's not so much about changing the meaning of affect. It's changing the affect. And so it's useful to understand that affect is tied to the state of your body. Or actually what it's tied to is your brain's beliefs about the state of your body. Your brain is modeling the state of the body. And that's in terraception. That's the technical word.
然后经常，就像我们之前说过的那样，一个控制运动的运动调节实际上真的。这并不是改变情绪的含义，而是改变情绪本身。因此，要理解情绪与身体状态有关是很有用的。实际上，它与你大脑对身体状态的信念有关。你的大脑正在模拟身体的状态。这就是内部感觉。这是一个技术术语。
And terraception is not your awareness of your body. It's your brain's modeling of your body. What your brain believes to be true about the metabolic state of your body. And that's how I think about affect. That's how I think about my own affect. And my daughter actually, who was depressed, so I should say depression is like a bankrupt body budget. Like you just can't move. You feel so fatigued that you can't move.
Terraception不是你对自己身体的意识。这是你的大脑对你的身体建模。大脑相信的有关你身体代谢状态的真实情况。这就是我对情感的看法。这也是我对自己情感的看法。我的女儿其实也是这样，她一直抑郁，所以我应该说抑郁就像是一个破产的身体预算。就像你根本无法移动。你感到如此疲惫以至于动弹不得。
And you're very distressed. It's like bankruptcy. And actually, if you, I mean, depression is a metabolic illness. And if you look at the symptoms of depression, they really are about metabolic, having metabolic deficits, basically. And it's interesting that one of the hallmark features of depression, subjectively speaking, is a lack of positive anticipation about the future, which makes perfect sense from the perspective of a depleted brain body budget. Yes, exactly.
你非常苦恼。这就像破产一样。实际上，如果你，我是说，抑郁症是一种代谢性疾病。如果你看一下抑郁症的症状，它们实际上主要与代谢有关。有趣的是，从主观的角度来看，抑郁症的一个特征是对未来缺乏积极的期待，这从一个消耗过度的大脑身体预算的角度来看是完全合理的。是的，完全正确。
And you're basically, think about the fact that prediction error, right? So if you're feeling unpleasant, you're not going to be anticipating pleasant things. And even if those things that are in the world could give you pleasure, you won't notice them because learning from prediction error, things that you didn't predict is expensive. And if you don't have the resources, you're not going to, right? So it's, but anyways, my daughter came up with this after we had this very interesting thing that happened to us on another trip.
你可以理解为，预测错误就是当你感到不愉快时，你不会期待愉快的事情。即使世界上有可能带给你快乐的事物，你也不会注意到，因为从预测错误中学习，也就是那些你没有预测到的事情是昂贵的。如果你没有资源，你就不会这样做。总之，我女儿在我们另一次旅行后想出了这个理论。
We were in Sweden because I was giving a keynote at the Carolinska Institute and we went, I took her to Sweden. And this is when she was recovering from depression. And like, you know, she is just one of the millions of young adults who, you know, adolescents and young adults who were experiencing depression. And we got to Sweden and she was very, very jet lagged. We both were. It was like one of these like, you know, we had to like, you know, planes, trains and automobiles, just, you know, getting there.
我们当时在瑞典是因为我要在卡罗林斯卡学院做主题演讲，我带她一起去了瑞典。那时她正在从抑郁症中恢复。她只是成千上万年轻人中的一个，在经历抑郁症的青少年和年轻人中。我们抵达瑞典时，她非常疲惫不堪。我们两个人都是。我们就像是经历了一场不间断的长途旅行，乘坐飞机、火车和汽车才到达那里。
And she woke up the next morning and she looked horrible. She felt horrible. It actually seemed to me like she was about to enter another depressive episode. And I said to her, I basically got her out of bed. I fed her a meal. I gave her four ibuprofen and I put her back to sleep. And she got up five hours later and she was absolutely fine. Her mood was fine. Now, I'm not telling you that ibuprofen is the, an antidepressant that you should take if you're depressed.
第二天早上她醒来，看起来很糟糕。她感觉糟糕。实际上，她似乎要陷入另一次抑郁情绪。我对她说，基本上我把她从床上弄起来。我给她吃了一顿饭。我给了她四片布洛芬，然后让她再睡一觉。五个小时后，她起床了，心情完全好转了。现在，我并不是告诉你要如果你抑郁，就要服用布洛芬作为抗抑郁药。
But what I'm telling you is that, you know, you said something, Andrew, that was so interesting. In the band getting you said, am I fatigued? Does my body, do I have pain somewhere? Does my body hurt? You know, these are, well, right. When basically what she was having was, she was fatigued and she was having what I would call, it's called the technical word is visceral nociception, which means her stomach hurt. Her, you know, everything hurt and sure, you know, her muscles probably hurt too, but it was really her innards.
但我告诉你的是，你知道的，你说的话，安德鲁，非常有趣。在乐队练习中你说，我是不是疲劳了？我的身体，我有没有哪里疼痛？我的身体有没有受伤？你知道，这些，嗯，就是这样。基本上她所经历的是，她感到疲劳，她所经历的是我会称之为，技术上称之为内脏疼痛，意思是她的胃疼。她的，你知道，一切都疼痛，当然，她的肌肉可能也疼痛，但实际上真正疼痛的是她的内部器官。
Really, she just was distressed. And the ibuprofen helped her get back to sleep and then she slept and she got up and she was completely fine. And then we walked around Stockholm for the rest of the day talking about this experience, which for her was like flipping on a light switch. You know, how emotions are made, this book that I referred to, I wrote that book for her. I wrote that book for her, but also for me because it was a way of putting down on paper all the things that I wanted her to know and that I thought other people should know about their kids, you know, and maybe even their kids could read it.
真的，她只是感到苦恼。布洛芬帮助她重新入睡，然后她睡着了，起床后完全没事了。然后我们在斯德哥尔摩四处走走，整天都在谈论这个经历，对她来说，就像打开了一盏灯。你知道，情绪是如何产生的，这本书我提到过，我写那本书是为了她。我写那本书是为了她，但也是为了我自己，因为这是把我想让她知道的所有事情和我认为其他人应该了解的关于他们的孩子的事情写在纸上的一种方式，也许甚至他们的孩子也可以读到。
But what she did with that was she came up with a new concept called the emotional flu. And the emotional flu is when you're having a bad body budgeting day and you're just like, you didn't get enough sleep maybe or, you know, there's some stress at work or at school that you can't get rid of otherwise. You know, my husband likes to say, well, you know, other people's opinions of you are just electrical activity in somebody's head, which I love. Like, that's just another way of categorizing it. It's sort of like taking apart the cup into pieces of light, right?
但她的想法却是创造了一个新概念，称之为情绪流感。情绪流感就是当你的身体预算出了问题，也许是因为你睡眠不足了，或者工作或学校里有一些无法摆脱的压力。我丈夫喜欢说，别人对你的看法只不过是别人头脑中的电活动，我觉得这句话很有趣。这就像把杯子拆成光的碎片一样，另一种分类方式。
And so whatever, there are just these moments where you feel depleted and you could use that. I mean, we usually, we often use affect to, as a indicator of how the world is, you know, if I feel bad, something must be bad wrong in the world. But you have to resist that sometimes because sometimes there's nothing wrong in the world. It's just that you didn't get enough sleep or, you know, you need to have a little bit more, you know, protein or maybe you haven't gone for a walk and you're stiff or whatever. You need to do some stretching.
有时候，你会感到疲惫，需要休息一下。通常我们会用自己的情绪来判断世界是不是出了什么问题，比如我感觉不好，肯定世界上有什么不对。但有时候我们要抵制这种想法，因为世界上并没有什么问题。可能只是因为你睡眠不足，需要多休息一下，或者需要补充一些蛋白质，或者是你需要走走路，肌肉有些僵硬，需要进行一些伸展。
Those are started interrupt, but I think people are going to want to anchor to a few of these positive steps that they can take to, I don't want to say replenish, but to shift affect in positive directions, sleep, movement, nutrition. Yes. And I've heard you say before that we are essentially amino acid foraging machines. So I noticed you said protein. You didn't say you need a bagel. You said protein. We could go down that rabbit hole. Maybe we do. Maybe we don't.
这些是开始中断，但我认为人们会想要将注意力集中在一些积极的步骤上，他们可以采取这些步骤来改变影响，比如睡眠、运动、营养。是的。我听过你说过我们基本上是氨基酸的搜寻机器。所以我注意到你说了蛋白质。你没有说要一块百吉饼。你说的是蛋白质。也许我们可以深入探讨这个话题。也许不会。
But I want to use this also just as a quick opportunity to say, as you're saying all this, one can immediately understand why alcohol and drugs of abuse are both so compelling, right? So you're not feeling well. So take it. You're feeling tired. Take a stimulant that releases dopamine and epinephrine, but you're taxing your already taxed body budget in a way that then puts you in a more depleted state later or alcohol. Like you feel lousy.
但我也想利用这个机会简单地说一下，当你说这些的时候，我们立即就能理解为什么酒精和滥用药物会如此有吸引力，对吧？所以你感觉不舒服。来点酒精。你感觉累了。来点释放多巴胺和肾上腺素的兴奋剂，但这样会使你已经紧张的身体预算得到更大的负担，然后导致你更加虚弱，或者是酒精。就像你感觉很糟糕。
Alcohol never did this for me, but friends I have who are recovered alcoholics will tell me that it was like a magical licksering and made them feel right. That's their language. But then, of course, there's a price to pay later because then it drops your baseline and it's an issue. Absolutely. One hundred, one hundred and ten percent. But I just also want to say that so is serotonin. Like so are, so is so are SSRIs maybe. And when I say maybe, what I mean by that is if you really have a metabolic problem, like say something's wrong with your mitochondria or you're recovering from an illness and you know, or there's just some metabolic problem in your body, that metabolic problem is real.
酒对我从来没有起到过这种作用，但是我认识的康复酒精成瘾者告诉我，它就像一种神奇的解药，让他们感觉自己恢复了。这是他们的说法。但是，当然，之后会有代价要付，因为它会降低你的基准线，这是个问题。绝对的。百分之百，一百一十。但是我也想说，血清素也是如此。就像抗抑郁药一样。当我说也许的时候，我的意思是如果你真的有代谢问题，比如说你的线粒体出了问题，或者你正在康复中，或者你的身体有什么代谢问题，那么这种代谢问题是真实的。
If you start to feel unpleasant, you will, I mean, feel unpleasant, it will feel your mood will be negative. If you start taking SSRIs, which will leave more serotonin in the synapses of your neurons before it's taken up again, that will juice the system. You will be able to spend. You'll be able to move. You'll feel like you have more energy for a while. But your nervous system is a complex system and so it's going to make adjustments elsewhere to try to deal with that budgeting problem.
如果你开始感觉不舒服，即使只是稍微不舒服，你的心情就会变得消极。如果你开始服用SSRIs，这会使你的神经元突触中剩余更多的血清素，这会增加你的活力。你会感到更有活力，能够行动。你一时会觉得有更多的能量。但是你的神经系统是一个复杂的系统，它会在其他地方做出调整来应对这个调节问题。
So exactly what happens when you take drugs of abuse and what happens on the short term can happen for some people with SSRIs on the longer term, where at first it starts to work and then it stops working and you start to gain weight and you know, because your metabolism is slowing, because your brain is attempting to deal with that budgeting problem. So it really matters what the, you know, what the source is. It could be that your brain believes you have a budgeting problem, but there really isn't one.
当你滥用药物时发生的事情究竟是什么，以及短期内发生的事情可能会在长期内发生在一些人身上服用 SSRIs 时，最初开始起作用，然后停止作用，你开始增加体重，你知道，因为你的新陈代谢减慢了，因为你的大脑正在试图处理那个预算问题。所以重要的是，你知道，源头是什么。也许是你的大脑认为你有预算问题，但实际上并没有。
It could be that there really is one. These things matter to how you treat it. One thing to just mention about SSRIs and I unfortunately for reasons of confidentiality, I can't cite the source on this, but let me just say that somebody who's highly informed in the landscape of pharmaceutical treatments for psychiatric challenges has told me that there's an emerging theory among psychiatrists, this is kind of a collective emerging theory, that one of the reasons why nowadays you hear about so-called treatment resistant depression, but you did not hear about so-called treatment resistant depression prior to the advent of SSRIs, is that there's a growing body of thought in the psychiatric community that SSRIs may over time, as you're pointing out, deplete the very neural systems that sub-serve enhanced mood.
也许真的存在这样一种情况。这些事情对你如何对待它很重要。关于SSRI，我很不幸，由于保密原因，我不能引用来源，但我听说过一个在精神挑战药物治疗领域非常了解的人告诉我，精神科医生中正在出现一种新理论，这是一种共同出现的理论，就是现在你可能听说了所谓的难治性抑郁症，但在SSRI出现之前，你从未听说过所谓的难治性抑郁症，原因之一可能是精神科界存在逐渐增多的观点认为，正如你所指出的，SSRI可能会随着时间推移消耗那些支持增强情绪的神经系统。
So it's different than a drug of abuse that gives you a very acute effect, like methamphetamine or cocaine or alcohol, but that over time you may actually be pulling the very neural circuits and neurochemicals that would allow for positive affect deeper and deeper into the trenches, so to speak. And so there's a growing number of people who simply don't respond to the drugs any longer or other treatments. Right, so I wasn't trying to say the mechanism is the same. I was basically saying the theme is the same. And then I'm agreeing with you.
因此，它与像甲基苯丙胺、可卡因或酒精这样给你非常急性效果的药物不同，但随着时间的推移，你可能会真正将允许积极情绪加深的神经回路和神经化学物质拉入更深的泥潭中，可以这么说。因此，有越来越多的人简单地对药物或其他治疗方法失去了反应。是的，所以我并不是在说机制是相同的。我基本上是在说主题是相同的。然后我同意你的观点。
What happens over the short term with drugs of abuse happens over the longer term with, for some people with SSRIs, because it hasn't been recognized yet that at the basis, depression is a metabolic problem. And when you have a metabolic problem like diabetes or obesity or heart disease, it's not that that causes depression, it's that there's a common problem, which is that somewhere in this very complex system of your metabolism, there's a drag, and it produces negative mood.
对于某些人来说，滥用药物引起的短期影响在长期内也会发生在那些使用SSRI药物的人身上，因为人们尚未意识到抑郁症的根本问题是代谢问题。当你有像糖尿病、肥胖或心脏病这样的代谢问题时，这并不是导致抑郁的原因，而是存在着一个共同的问题，即在你的代谢系统中的某个地方存在障碍，导致产生消极情绪。
And that's how you experience it. Sometimes it's good not to turn, it's productive not to turn that negative affect into an emotion. Sometimes, you know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes you just need to deal with the affective problem by dealing with your physical state. And that's the tricky bit, is knowing when is affect telling you something is wrong with the world? And when is it telling you that there's something wrong with your physical state that you need to attend to? Well, I think everything to me at least starts with a good night's sleep on a consistent basis.
这就是你体验它的方式。有时候最好不要转变，把负面影响转化成情绪有益。有时候，你知道，有时候雪茄只是一支雪茄。有时候你只需要通过处理身体状态来解决情感问题。而棘手的部分在于，要知道情感何时告诉你世界出了问题？何时告诉你自己的身体状态有问题需要处理？嗯，我认为对我来说，一切都至少始于持续地有一个良好的夜晚睡眠。
And every psychiatric challenge and indeed suicide itself seems to be associated with and often preceded by challenges in sleeping, changes in incircadian rhythm. So I think that's why to me sleep is the foundation of mental health and physical health. Yeah, absolutely. And so when I tell people when they say, well, what can I do? I was like, well, if there's only one thing that you could pick, I would say get a good night's sleep on a regular basis. If you could pick two more, I would say eat healthfully, like stop eating pseudo food. Don't get me wrong, like I love french fries. I love french fries.
每一个精神健康方面的挑战，甚至包括自杀本身，似乎都与睡眠问题有关，通常是在睡眠挑战和昼夜节律改变之前。所以我认为对我来说，睡眠是心理健康和身体健康的基础。是的，确实如此。所以当人们问我能做些什么时，我想说，如果只能选择一样，我会说定期获得一个良好的睡眠。如果还能再选两样，我会说，多吃健康食物，不要吃伪食品。不要误会，我也喜欢吃薯条。我很喜欢吃薯条。
That's like God's most perfect food. I mean, really. But eat healthfully, eat real food and get exercise. And if you do those three things, I know I sound like a mother and feel free to roll your eyes at me. But as a neuroscientist, those are the, actually, before you start with all the, you know, mentalizing Jedi tricks, you could just start with this. And that would actually take you pretty far. And that will resonate very well with our audience.
这就像是上帝最完美的食物。我是说，真的。但要健康饮食，吃真正的食物，并且要运动。如果你做到这三件事，我知道我听起来像个母亲，随时可以翻白眼对我。但作为一个神经科学家，这些才是重点，实际上，在你开始进行所有的心理分析绝地武士技巧之前，你可以从这里开始。这将让你走得更远。这也会与我们的观众产生共鸣。
The basics of sleep, exercise, food, sunlight, and social connection are the ones that we just anchored to. Those five are the ones that we just keep returning to over and over again. And I think people will say, oh, it's just simple motherly advice. But I would, I think that those five things, even just the one thing around sleep, there's some work that's required to get that done.
睡眠、运动、饮食、阳光和社交连接是我们始终依赖的基本要素。这五个方面我们一直在重复回归。有人可能会觉得这只是简单的母亲式建议，但我认为这五样东西，即使是其中的睡眠这一点，也需要付出一些努力才能实现。
So it's not as simple. The categories are simple. But the work that's required to get great sleep as often as one can on a consistent basis if you're raising kids, have a career, live in the world. There's a lot there. And so that's where I think there's an elaboration of things. And one needs to learn to be flexible.
所以这并不简单。分类很简单。但要想在养育孩子、拥有事业、生活在这个世界的情况下保持良好的睡眠质量，所需付出的努力并不简单。这其中有很多因素。因此我认为有必要展开一些事情。人们需要学会灵活变通。
Like when you're traveling, how do you do that? When, you know, friends are visiting, how do you do that? When weather's off and so on. The relationship piece is something I was just going to say. I was just so glad you mentioned that. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Because you said before, and this was another one of those moments I listened to you.
就像当你在旅行时，你是怎么做的？当朋友来访时，你是怎么做的？当天气不好的时候，等等。关系这部分正是我想说的。我很高兴你提到了这一点。我很高兴你提到了这一点。因为你之前说过，这是我听你说的又一个时刻。
I've listened to as many of your podcasts as I possibly can. But I think it was the first or the second one with Lex Friedman, where you said, you know, we are regulating each other's nervous systems. And I will never forget that. And, you know, I imagine that you married your husband for a number of different reasons. But when people pair up with romantic partners, with friends, with coworkers, the ideal situation is one in which we are not taxed. Where maybe even people and just being around them or just knowing that they are in our lives provides a sort of deposit to. Yeah, it's a savings. It provides a savings for sure.
我已经尽可能多地听了你的播客。但我记得是和Lex Friedman的第一或第二个节目，你说过，你知道，我们在调节彼此的神经系统。我永远不会忘记那句话。你嫁给你丈夫可能有许多不同的原因。但当人们与浪漫伴侣、朋友、同事配对时，理想的情况是我们之间不会有太大负担。也许，甚至人们只是和他们在一起，或者知道他们存在于我们的生活中，都会给我们一种存款。是的，这是一种储蓄。毫无疑问，它会带来一种储蓄。
And then I think that's a lot of what emotional resonance to put kind of pop language on it is all about who feels good to be around, who doesn't feel good to be around. Yeah, I would say the best thing for a human nervous system is another human. And the worst thing for a human nervous system is also another human. And so you really want to be around the people who make you the best version of yourself that you could be. And that doesn't mean that you always get a savings. Like sometimes you're sometimes you're taking care of that person.
然后我认为，情感共鸣的很大一部分其实就是关于谁让人感到愉快，谁让人感到不愉快。是的，我想说，对人类神经系统来说，最好的事情就是另一个人。而对人类神经系统来说，最糟糕的事情也是另一个人。所以你真的想要和那些使你成为最好版本的人在一起。这并不意味着你总是能得到回报。有时你也会照顾那个人。
And so you're you're absorbing some of the burden, right? And vice versa. But I would say the research on, you know, social isolation and loneliness and so on shows us that, you know, well, along with research on synchrony and there's just a whole bunch of research to suggest that we are the caretakers of each other's nervous system. And it doesn't matter what your opinion is. Like it doesn't, you know, it just, but we just that's how we evolved the species. And so you get to decide what kind of a person are you going to be?
所以你正在承担一些负担，是吗？反之亦然。但我想说的是，关于社交孤立和孤独等方面的研究表明，除了关于同步性的研究，还有很多研究都表明我们是彼此神经系统的照管者。你决定成为怎样的人？无论你的观点如何，我们只是这样进化为物种的。
You know, are you going to be a savings or are you going to be a tax? And in general, it seems that people who decide that they're going to be a savings tend to, because people gravitate towards that and want more of that. And hopefully would provide that also. I mean, I think the reciprocity piece here feels really, really strong. Well, that's a really interesting thing about about the synchrony work, right? So there's work that if you research that if you put people together who don't even know each other, but if they if they like each other and they they have a sense of trust, even after a couple of minutes, they start to synchronize their physical signals.
你知道吗，你是要成为一个节俭者，还是成为一个税收呢？通常来说，那些决定成为节俭者的人，因为人们都青睐这种行为，并且希望自己拥有更多。希望他们也会给予别人。我觉得这里的互惠感觉非常强烈。嗯，关于协调工作的一件有趣的事情是什么？有研究表明，即使把彼此不认识的人放在一起，但如果他们彼此喜欢并相互信任，在几分钟之后，他们就会开始同步他们的身体信号。
Their heart rate starts to synchronize their movements start to synchronize their heart rate probably synchronizes because their breathing starts to synchronize, right? And it's really interesting to see what you typically see is that who is pacing and who is leading, like one person is the leader and then the other person is the pacer. And I got that language from when I learned hypnosis, by the way. And but it switches back and forth, like who's the leader? Like in a good, in a, in a, what we say good, like in a, in an interaction that looks productive, it, it's switching all the time who is, who is pacing and who is leading.
他们的心率开始同步，他们的动作开始同步，他们的心率可能因为他们的呼吸开始同步而同步，对吧？而且，真的很有趣的是，你通常会看到谁在主导和谁在跟随，就像一个人是领导者，然后另一个是配速员。顺便说一下，我学习催眠时就得出了这个结论。但是它却来回切换，像谁才是领导者呢？就像在一个看起来很有效的互动中，谁在配速和谁在领导都在一直变化。
It's not that always one person is, is, is in charge, so to speak, physiologically speaking. We did a series recently on mental health with Paul Conti, who's a psychiatrist and the word narcissism came up a few times because people have a lot of questions about that. And you know, and he emphasized that narcissists are not confident. They operate from a place of, of a deficit of pleasure. It's never enough and an intense envy, although that's not how they present and they're often usually not aware of it themselves.
并不是说总是只有一个人负责，从生理上来说也是如此。最近我们做了一个关于心理健康的系列节目，保罗·孔蒂是一位精神病医生，在其中提到了自恋这个词，因为很多人对此有很多疑问。他强调自恋者并不自信，他们从一种享乐的赤字中运作。他们永远无法满足，并且存在着强烈的嫉妒，尽管他们并不是这样呈现自己，而且通常自己也意识不到。
But it's what leads healthy people to feel as if the interactions with those people, narcissists often can be very compelling in the moment, but they feel very taxed afterwards and kind of confused by what happened. And it sounds like it ties back to this lack of synchrony. On the positive side of things, it's also clear from what you just said that when people regulate each other's nervous systems in a way where people are making little deposits and providing savings for each other, or maybe things are just neutral that those nervous systems are then in a position to pay attention to other things too, and not just trying to work out the dynamics.
但健康的人感到与那些自恋者互动时，往往在当下会感到非常有吸引力，但之后感到非常累，有点困惑发生了什么。听起来好像与缺乏共鸣有关。从积极的方面来看，从你刚才说的，当人们以一种方式调节彼此的神经系统，互相存款和提供储蓄，或者事情只是中立时，这也是清楚的，这样的神经系统就可以关注其他事情，而不仅仅是努力解决动态关系。
Oh, for sure. Oh, and that's very true at work. So there's research showing that, especially in the creativity, you know, sector innovation sector of the economy, the best predictor of performance on the job is the extent to which people feel, I mean, after you account for sleep and, and, you know, watering and sleeping and feeding, right? Like the, that the best predictor is the amount of trust that you have in your team and in your managers.
哦，当然。哦，这在工作中确实非常正确。因此，有研究显示，尤其在创新领域，创造力领域的经济中，工作表现的最佳预测因素是人们感受到的程度，我是说，在考虑到睡眠、饮食和休息等因素之后。最佳的预测因素是你对团队和管理层的信任程度。
Because if the world is predictable, it could still be things could be hard. Even when things are unpredictable, you have people, you know, who have your back. And so basically what you're doing is you're, you're, they're making, you know, deposits or savings, they're causing savings in each other's body budgets. So they're, their resources can be spent on the harder things, which is, you know, failing and, you know, having to pick yourself back up and try again, which is, you know, partly what you do when you're an innovator.
因为如果世界是可预测的，事情仍然可能会变得困难。即使事情是不可预测的，你有人支持你。所以基本上你正在互相存款或储蓄，他们在彼此的身体预算上造成储蓄。因此，他们的资源可以用于更困难的事情，比如失败，重新振作并再次尝试，这在你是一名创新者时一部分。
So I think that there's also research to show that in your personal life, when you do random acts of kindness for people or when you're kind, in general, you drive also a body budgeting benefit from that. You know, so for a while, I had a friend who we would meet each other for lunch once a month and, you know, we would take turns paying. I mean, we could both pay for ourselves, but we got to got a double hit, you know, he paid for me one month and then I would pay for him one month and then, you know, so we get the double hit of, you know, being kind to someone else and, you know, and also they got the, you know, benefit of someone being kind to them.
因此，我认为也有研究表明，当你在个人生活中为他人做出随机的善举或总体上表现友善时，你也会从中获得身体健康的益处。你知道，有一段时间，我有一个朋友，我们每个月都会见面吃午餐，我们轮流付款。我指的是，我们都可以自己付款，但我们却获得了双重效益，你知道，他一个月给我付款，然后我一个月给他付款，然后，你知道，我们既可以表现出对别人的善意，又能让他们感受到被人善待的好处。
And I'll just say, I think kindness is a, I don't know that we have so many conversations about that in our culture right now, but I think kindness is very, very underrated and should be, you know, like, when I'm, when I feel like shit, I bake bread for my neighbor, who's in his 70s, him and his wife. That's what I do when I, you know, when I'm not feeling good. And, you know, if I, I mean, after I've taken care of the physical, the possible physical causes, I, and then I feel great because he's always so. He's always so grateful and, and then I felt like I made his day better.
我想说的是，我认为善良是一种被低估的品质，在我们的文化中我们可能并没有很多关于这一话题的讨论。但我认为善良是非常重要的，应该得到更多重视。当我感觉糟糕的时候，我会给我70多岁的邻居和他的妻子烤面包。这是我在不舒服的时候做的事情。当我确保了可能的身体原因后，我就会感觉好多了。因为他总是那么感激，我觉得我让他的一天变得更好了。
And then also he helps me in other ways, like with my garden and stuff, because he's just like a master gardener. And so I feel like we have this relationship where we help each other. And I know it sounds really sappy, but. And even though all the research backs up what I'm saying, I, it doesn't quite describe the feeling of when someone is just really happy because you just gave them a little surprise and they're, you know, like that's, that's just some juice in that, I think.
然后他还以其他方式帮助我，比如我的花园一类的事情，因为他就像是一个园艺大师。所以我觉得我们之间有一种互相帮助的关系。我知道这听起来很肉麻，但实际上所有的研究都支持我的说法，但这并不能完全描述当某人因为你给了他们一个小惊喜而感到真的很开心的那种感受，你知道的，那就是一些真挚的情感在里面，我认为。
On some culture out there, there's a word for that. I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. Well, I have to say I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I mean, I've been looking forward to it for a long time and you've provided us with a really broad arc, but also a deep dive into not just how emotions are made, not just about affect. But as you mentioned earlier, you know, really how the nervous system works.
在某些文化中，对此有一个专门的词。我确信是这样的。我确信是这样的。嗯，我不得不说我非常喜欢这次谈话。我的意思是，我已经期待了很长时间，而你为我们呈现出了一个非常广泛的范围，也深入探讨了情感形成的过程，不仅仅是情感本身。但正如你之前提到的，你真的解释了神经系统是如何工作的。
And I am certain in fact that our audience is taking this in and realizing that that knowledge is incredibly powerful, the addition of nuance, both to language into self reflection states as extremely valuable. Oftentimes when one gets into a conversation that has some level of reductionism and you get into nomenclature and things like that, it can really pull away from the real life experience of something.
我确信，事实上我们的观众正在接受这一点，并意识到知识是非常强大的，细微差别的添加对语言和自我反思状态都非常有价值。通常当一个人参与到一个具有某种程度的简化论的对话中，涉及到术语等等，这些会真正削弱对事物真实生活体验的理解。
But this is exactly the opposite. What you've done for us today is you've provided such a rich array of information that adds written richness and depth to the real life experience. And that is really invaluable. So on behalf of myself and all the listeners and the people watching this, I want to say thank you for today's discussion. Thank you for the books you've written, which we've provided links to in the show note captions. Thanks for showing up on social media, despite the challenges that exist there. Sometimes you always handle yourself so well there and we will refer people to your excellent social media accounts as well.
但事实恰恰相反。今天您为我们提供了如此丰富的信息，为真实生活体验增添了文字的丰富和深度。这真的是非常宝贵的。我代表我自己和所有的听众以及观看这个节目的人，要感谢您今天的讨论。感谢您所写的书，在节目说明中我们提供了相关链接。感谢您在社交媒体上的出现，尽管那里存在挑战。有时候您总是表现得非常出色，我们也会向您出色的社交媒体账号推荐给他人。
And just for all the work that you're doing in that your laboratory and your now director of various things and relate to AI and more. And we'll talk about this hopefully in future episodes, but just a really enormous. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about the psychology and neuroscience of emotions with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett.
感谢您在您的实验室所做的所有工作以及您现在担任的各种与人工智能等相关的主任职务。我们希望在未来的节目中会谈到这些内容，这是非常重要的。非常感谢您。谢谢。感谢您今天与我一起讨论与心理学和神经科学有关的情绪的博士Lisa Feldman Barrett。
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Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements. While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support and for focus. If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to LiveMomentice spelled O U S. So LiveMomentice.com slash Huberman. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all platforms.
在今天的节目中没有讨论，但在许多以前的Huberman Lab播客中，我们讨论了补充剂。虽然并非人人都需要补充剂，但很多人从中获得了巨大的好处，比如改善睡眠、支持激素和增强注意力。如果你想了解Huberman Lab播客中讨论的补充剂，你可以去LiveMomentice网站，拼写为O U S。所以是LiveMomentice.com/huberman。如果你还没有关注我在社交媒体上的账号，我在所有平台上都是Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called X, Facebook, LinkedIn and threads. And at all those places, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast. So again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our zero cost neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits in the form of protocol.
所以这就是Instagram，Twitter，现在叫X，Facebook，LinkedIn和threads。在所有这些地方，我讨论科学和与科学有关的工具，其中一些与Huberman Lab播客的内容重叠，但很多则与Huberman Lab播客的内容不同。所以再次强调，在所有社交媒体平台上都可以找到Huberman Lab。如果您还没有订阅我们的零成本神经网络通讯，神经网络通讯是一个月度通讯，包括播客摘要以及协议形式的工具包。
So these are short PDFs that list out the specific things that one could do in order to, for example, improve sleep, improve learning, regulate dopamine. We have toolkits and protocols that relate to fitness from our fitness episodes and much, much more. To sign up, simply go to Huberman Lab.com, click on the newsletter tab at the top of the site, and then enter your email and click subscribe. I want to point out that we do not share your email with anybody. And again, the newsletter is completely zero cost.
这些都是简短的PDF文件，列出了人们可以做的具体事情，比如改善睡眠、提高学习能力、调节多巴胺。我们还有与健身有关的工具包和协议，以及更多内容。要注册，只需访问Huberman Lab.com，点击网站顶部的新闻通讯选项卡，然后输入您的电子邮件并点击订阅。我想指出我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。而且，新闻通讯是完全免费的。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
再次感谢你参加今天与Lisa Feldman Barrett博士的讨论。最后但同样重要的是，感谢你对科学的兴趣。感谢您的参与。