US politicians grill TikTok boss
发布时间 2023-03-23 22:07:00 来源
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Hello and welcome to News Hour from the BBC World Service coming to you live from London. I'm Paul Henley.
大家好，欢迎收听由BBC World Service直播来自伦敦的新闻小时。我是保罗·亨利。
The head of TikTok has been battling for the survival of the massively popular video-sharing app in the US today. Members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee in Washington spend hours grilling show chew. They attack TikTok over its alleged ties to the Chinese government and the dangers they said it posed to teenagers. Many Democrats and Republicans fear that Beijing could subvert the app to spy harvest data and push a covert Communist Party agenda. Concerns were also raised about the app's addictive qualities and its possible impact on mental health.
今天，TikTok的负责人正在为这款大受欢迎的视频分享应用在美国的生存而战。华盛顿能源和商业委员会的成员们花费数小时对曹俊进行提问。他们指责TikTok与中国政府存在关联，并称其对青少年的危害。许多民主党人和共和党人担心北京可能会利用这个应用程序来窃取数据并推行隐秘的共产党议程。人们还对这个应用程序的上瘾特性以及对精神健康的可能影响提出了担忧。
Before we attended the meeting, TikTok CEO Shochu posted this on TikTok from Washington DC. Hi everyone, it's Shou here. I'm the CEO of TikTok. I'm here in Washington DC today and I have some news and updates to share with everyone here. Today, I'm super excited to announce that more than 150 million Americans on TikTok. They're the most half of the US coming to TikTok to connect, to create, to share, to learn, or just to have some fun.
在我们参加会议之前，TikTok首席执行官斯琪在华盛顿特区通过TikTok发布了这条消息。大家好，我是斯琪。我是TikTok的CEO。今天我在华盛顿特区，并有一些消息和更新要与大家分享。今天，我非常高兴地宣布，有超过1.5亿美国人在TikTok上。他们是美国人中最多的一半，来到TikTok上连接，创造，分享，学习，或者只是玩乐一些。
But compare that with the director of the FBI Christopher Ray answering questions before Congress earlier this month. Could they use TikTok to control data on millions of users? Yes, could they use it to control the software on millions of devices given the opportunity to do so? Yes.
不过，我们可以拿美国联邦调查局局长克里斯托弗·雷本月早些时候在国会回答问题的表现来做个比较。他能利用TikTok控制数百万用户的数据吗？可以。如果有机会，他能利用它控制数百万设备的软件吗？可以。
In her opening statement, the chair of the House Committee, Kathy McMorris Rogers, made this attack on TikTok. TikTok collects nearly every data point imaginable from people's location to what they type and copy, who they talk to, biometric data and more. Even if they've never been on TikTok, your trackers are embedded in sites across the web. TikTok surveils this all. And the Chinese Communist Party is able to use this as a tool to manipulate America as a whole. We do not trust TikTok will ever embrace American values. Values for freedom, human rights, and innovation. TikTok has repeatedly chosen the path for more control, more surveillance, and more manipulation. Your platform should be banned.
在众议院委员会主席凯西·麦克莫里斯·罗杰斯的开场陈述中，她对TikTok发起了攻击。TikTok几乎收集了人们的每一个数据点，从他们的位置到他们打字和复制的内容，以及他们与谁交谈，生物识别数据等等。即使他们从未使用过TikTok，你们的跟踪器也嵌入了网络上的各个站点。TikTok监视这一切。而中国共产党能够利用这一点作为操纵整个美国的工具。我们不相信TikTok将会 embrace 美国价值观。对于自由、人权和创新的价值观。TikTok已经一再选择了更多控制、更多监视和更多操纵的路径。你们的平台应该被禁止。
But Shodew said TikTok's parent company called Bite Dance was not connected to the Chinese government. Bite Dance is not owned or controlled by the Chinese government. It's a private company. 60% of the company is owned by global institutional investors. 20% is owned by the founder and 20% owned by employees around the world. Bite Dance is five board members, three of them are American. TikTok itself is not available in mainland China. We're headquartered in Los Angeles and in Singapore. We have 7,000 employees in the US today.
但是，Shodew说，TikTok的母公司Bite Dance与中国政府没有关联。Bite Dance是一家私人公司，不属于或受到中国政府的控制。该公司60%的股份归全球机构投资者所有，20%的股份归创始人所有，另外20%则归全球员工所有。Bite Dance有五名董事会成员，其中三名为美国人。TikTok本身在中国大陆不可用。我们的总部位于洛杉矶和新加坡，如今在美国有7,000名员工。
During an exchange with the Republican Congressman Bob Latter, Mr. Chu did accept that some TikTok data was currently accessible to staff in China. All US user data is stored by default in the Oracle Cloud infrastructure and access to that is controlled. I imagine that. My dance employees in China, including engineers, currently have access to US data. Congressman, I would appreciate this is a complex topic. Today, all data is stored by people. Yes, no, it's not that complex. Yes or no, do they have access to user data? After Project Texas is done, the answer is no. Today, there is still something that we need to see.
在与共和党国会议员鲍勃·莱特的交流中，朱先生承认中国的一些TikTok数据目前可供工作人员访问。所有美国用户数据默认存储在Oracle Cloud基础设施中，并受到控制。我想象着，我的中国舞蹈员，包括工程师，目前可以访问美国数据。议员，我会感激讨论这个复杂话题。现在，所有数据都是由人来存储的。是的，不是很复杂。他们是否可以访问用户数据？在完成德州计划之后，答案是否定的。今天，还有一些需要我们去看的东西。
Well, the BBC's Michelle Flurry has been on Capitol Hill today. She's been watching the committee in session and she spoke to me just before the session finished.
嗯，BBC的米歇尔·弗卢里今天在国会山。她一直在观看委员会的会议，并在会议结束前与我交谈。
How would she describe the tone of the hearing? It has been combative. There has been no let up for TikTok CEO, Shaji Chu. He has endured many questions, very hostile in tone. Often, he hasn't been able to get an answer in the air address, at least to fully respond to what he's being asked.
她会如何形容听证会的氛围呢？非常具有攻击性。对于TikTok的CEO Shaji Chu来说，没有任何喘息的机会。他经历了许多问题，气氛非常敌对。经常情况下，他无法在公开讲话中得到完整的回答或至少对所问的问题做出充分回应。
That being said, though, some of his answers, he has repeated what he has said in his opening remarks. That has left lawmakers a bit frustrated, a sense that he's been evasive, that he's not providing the kind of detail that they are looking for.
话虽如此，他有些答案是在重复他在开场白中说过的话。这让立法者有些沮丧，感觉他回避了一些问题，没有提供他们所期望的详细信息。
I think it's worth pointing out that it is different from past hearings, where we've seen, for example, the CEOs of other big American tech firms, like Mark Zuckerberg or Facebook. Typically, then legislators will maybe see one or two friendly faces in the room, maybe from their own district in California. He'll make the point that this is a great American company. That's not the case for TikTok. And so that's what's made it so striking. It's just the fact that you're seeing this united front from politicians across the aisle, essentially attacking you.
我认为值得指出的是，这次听证会与以往不同。以往我们曾见过其他美国科技公司的CEO，例如Facebook的马克·扎克伯格。通常情况下，立法者在房间里可能会看到一个或两个友好的面孔，也许是自己加利福尼亚地区的。他会强调这是一家伟大的美国公司。但对于TikTok来说情况并非如此。这就是为什么这件事如此引人注目的原因。从立场上看，这是所有政客站在一起攻击你。
Just so that we know what data does TikTok gather. I mean, like most of the social media apps that we use these days, it collects a lot of our personal information, not just our A, our names, potentially our data burst, but also our habits. What are we looking at? What are we repeatedly browsing again again? Where have we been? And that's the sort of information that has lawmakers alarmed.
仅为了我们了解TikTok收集了什么数据。我的意思是，像我们现在所使用的大多数社交媒体应用程序一样，它收集了我们大量的个人信息，不仅仅是我们的A，我们的名字，还可能是我们的出生日期，但还有我们的习惯。我们看什么？我们一遍又一遍地浏览什么？我们去过哪里？这是让立法者们感到警惕的信息。
They fear that in particular with TikTok, because of this sort of ownership link, the fact that EDI is partly owned by White Dance, a Chinese company, that makes it more untrustworthy than say some of the other big tech firms out there that also have big security concerns over user data privacy.
他们担心，尤其是关于TikTok，因为EDi部分归属于中国公司白舞集团，这种所有权关系使得它比其他存在用户数据隐私安全问题的大型科技公司更加不可信。如果有必要，我们可以将这段话改写为以下方式：他们害怕使用TikTok时特别要注意，因为EDi被中国公司白舞集团部分拥有，这意味着它比其他一些存在用户数据隐私安全问题的大型科技公司更加不可信。
And so that's why they are so focused, they are worried that it could be used for spying. And it's what kind of differentiates TikTok, as I've said before, to the other American social media companies like Facebook, which has Instagram, like Google, which has YouTube shorts, like Twitter, they're all American owned, but they don't have that Chinese element at a time when tensions are ratcheting out between the US and China.
所以这就是为什么他们非常专注，因为他们担心它可能会被用来进行间谍活动。正如我之前所说，这是TikTok与其他美国社交媒体公司区别的一种方式，如Facebook拥有Instagram，Google拥有YouTube Shorts，Twitter等等，他们都是美国公司，但它们没有那种在中美紧张关系加剧时的中国元素。
And TikTok is trying to reassure with something called Project Texas. What's that? So it's this idea. They've teamed up with an American company, Oracle, and the idea is that they are storing American data on American soil, and it will be overseen by American employees. But lawmakers are pushing back on that.
TikTok正在尝试用所谓的“德克萨斯计划”来安抚人们的不安。它是什么项目呢？它的想法是，他们与一家美国公司 Oracle 首创合作，把美国数据存储在美国领土上，并由美国员工监督。但是，立法者正在对此提出反对意见。
And in fact, I've heard some people say that, you know, it's not where the servers are held, that they can still be sort of reached into somehow by the Chinese should they so choose to.
实际上，我听到有些人说，你知道的，服务器的存放位置并不重要，如果中国人想要的话，他们仍然可以以某种方式进入其中。
And if you listen to what Shouji Cho has been saying, he's been pushing back too. So you look, with all due respect, American companies don't have a great track record with data, and he points out Facebook and Cambridge Analytica. That was a sort of incident in which data was mismanaged, misused, and it led to a sort of huge scandal.
如果你听了一下松冈佑二（Shouji Cho）所说的话，他也一直在反驳。所以，恕我直言，美国公司在数据领域的记录并不太好，他指出了Facebook和剑桥分析公司。那是一次数据被管理不当，被滥用的事件，引起了一场巨大的丑闻。
So this is an ongoing debate, and some lawmakers are using this hearing to push for greater privacy legislation of the sort that Europe has already enacted.
所以这是一个持续进行的辩论，一些立法者正在利用这次听证会推动更严格的隐私立法，就像欧洲已经制定的那种立法一样。
The BBC's Michelle Flurry, speaking from Capital Hill in Washington, D.C., event Clark is a member of the committee, and she questions Shouji Cho during the hearing. She's a Democrat from New York.
BBC 的米歇尔·弗拉里在华盛顿特区的国会山发言，克拉克是该委员会的成员，她在听证会期间质疑了来自纽约州的民主党议员 Shouji Cho。
I wasn't one over today. I think there's an ongoing conversation, a deeper dive into sort of the, you know, the relationship between TikTok, bite dance, and the Chinese government, if there is a substantiated relationship. And then, you know, the US has to do, we have to do our job. We have to get data privacy laws in place, which helps the American consumer to protect themselves. We've got to do a lot more education of the people of the US, with respect to their engagement online and how data is collected. But today's hearing just didn't cut it for me.
今天我没有被彻底打动。我认为现在正在进行关于TikTok、抖音和中国政府之间关系的深入讨论，是否存在实质性关联。而对于美国，我们必须做好我们的工作。我们必须制定数据隐私法，以帮助美国消费者保护自己。我们还必须对美国人民进行更多关于网上参与和数据收集方面的教育。但是今天的听证会对我来说并没有解决问题。
You know, I've had a number of hearings with other social media platforms where a number of the same concerns have come up, not, of course, of foreign adversary being affiliated, but, of course, the harmful outcomes of some of the usage on these platforms. And it felt like, you know, one of those average social media CEO types of hearings, unfortunately.
你知道的，我已经与其他社交媒体平台进行了多次听证会，其中许多相同的问题已经出现，当然，并非与外国敌对势力有关，而是这些平台上一些使用的有害影响。而且感觉就像是一次普通的社交媒体CEO类型的听证会，不幸的是。
But the truth is that almost all the objections that were raised to the boss of TikTok could apply to American social media apps, concerns about addiction, mental health problems, harvesting of data. These are all things that Congress people are perfectly familiar with.
但实际上，几乎所有对TikTok老板提出的反对意见都可以适用于美国社交媒体应用程序，包括对沉迷、心理健康问题和数据收集的担忧。这些都是国会议员非常熟悉的事情。
Absolutely. You're correct. And that's why, you know, I kind of led with the idea that we've been sort of recalcitrant here in not, you know, erecting social media legislation that protects the American people online. Privacy laws have not been passed yet. And so it's somewhat the wild, wild west here.
当然。你说得对。这就是为什么，你知道的，我开始强调我们一直在这里表现得很顽固，没有制定保护美国人在线的社交媒体立法。隐私法尚未通过。因此，这里有点像“西部世界”那样的野蛮。
And, you know, it's very clear to me. And I've been on this committee for close to a decade now that, you know, our social media platforms need some rules to the road. You know, the profit motive is far too strong for these companies to want to curb their current activities. I only see this as a race to the bottom.
你知道的，对我来说非常清楚。我已经在这个委员会上快近十年了，我们的社交媒体平台需要一些规则来约束。你知道，这些公司的利润动机远远超过了想要限制它们当前活动的动机。我只看到这是一场向底部赛跑的过程。
And the argument that there is no direct link between TikTok, its parent company and the Chinese government that didn't impress you. You know, because I need facts, let's put it that way.
"你知道的，对于“抖音”和它的母公司以及中国政府之间没有直接联系”的论点并没有给我留下什么深刻的印象。因为我需要事实来支持。"
And what I heard today were a number of assertions and you'd like to take people at their word. But, you know, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of adversaries out there. So we have to protect ourselves in many ways, having such an open society here in the United States.
今天我听到了很多说法，你希望相信人们的话。但是，您知道，在一天结束时，我们有很多对手。因此，由于美国拥有如此开放的社会，我们必须采取许多措施来保护自己。
Would you be comfortable talking of open society? Would you be comfortable with an outright ban on a social media app that's used by more than 50 million Americans? It's not a very American thing to do to ban. It's rather Chinese, isn't it?
你对谈论开放社会感到舒适吗？你会对一款被超过5000万美国人使用的社交媒体应用实施完全禁令感到舒适吗？禁令并不是美国人的作风，这更像是中国的风格，不是吗？
It, I, let me say this, I don't think anyone wants a ban. However, if I'm the day. Well, actually, most people seem to want a ban in the political scene.
让我来说一下，我认为没有人希望禁令。但是，实际上，在政治舞台上，大多数人似乎都希望有禁令。如果我能发言的话。
I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say most. I'd say so. But what I can say to you is that if American data can be used and weaponized against the American people, that's a unique threat that we haven't faced with US companies, with US-based companies.
我不会说不少，因为实际上是这样的。但我可以向您说明的是，如果美国的数据被利用并武器化对付美国人民，这是我们从未面对过的针对美国公司、以美国为基地的公司的独特威胁。
And, you know, TikTok has asserted that they're US-based company. Again, you know, I want to have the facts. I want to be sure that that's the case, because at the end of the day, the only accountability we have is that we, you know, can regulate and control.
嗯，你知道吗，TikTok宣称他们是美国公司。同样的，我想了解确切的事实。因为最终，我们唯一拥有的权力是监管和掌控。所以，我要确保他们的说法属实。
And if, in fact, we're in a space where this is sort of a Trojan horse, it puts the American people at a severe vulnerability.
如果事实上我们正处在一个类似特洛伊木马的空间中，那么这将使美国人处于极大的脆弱之中。
So, where are you finally after today's hearing? What do you take away from the question and answer session? I think there has to be an ongoing conversation. I'd like to really get some more briefings from our national security, homeland security perspective.
那么，今天的听证会后你最后去了哪里呢？你从问答环节中学到了什么？我觉得必须有持续的对话。我想从国家安全、国土安全的角度获得更多的简报。
What they have to substantiate their concerns and the assertions of a ban. You know, that was going to be revealed in the setting that we had our hearing today.
他们需要证明他们所关注的问题和禁令的主张。你知道的，在我们今天听证会的场合下会揭示这些证据。
You don't think you're moving towards a ban just yet? I can say that I'm not convinced. Then if I had to vote on it, I would not vote to do that, given the information that I have at the moment.
你不认为你现在正在逐渐推向禁令吗？我可以说我不信服。那么，如果我必须投票，考虑到我目前拥有的信息，我不会投赞成票。
Congresswoman Yvette Carc, member of the committee that grilled show chew during today's hearing. She's a Democrat from New York, here with the BBC World Service, and this is NewsHour.
这里是新闻时报，我是来自BBC世界服务的记者。今天的听证会上，被质询的演员秀秀遭到了委员会成员、来自纽约的民主党国会女议员Yvette Carc 的质问。
Coming up, a young Afghan woman remembers the terrifying day that her classroom was attacked.
接下来，一位年轻的阿富汗女子回忆起她的教室被袭击的可怕一天。
I saw a young man shooting. I couldn't hear his gunfire because the class was shouting loud. I could only see their smoke coming out of his gun. Then I got scared and tried to hide under the table.
我看到一个年轻人在射击，但由于班级的喧闹声，我听不见他开枪的声音，只能看到他的枪里冒出的烟雾。然后我很害怕，想躲到桌子底下。
The NewsHeadlines, the CEO of TikTok has told a Congressional committee in Washington that the Chinese-owned social media app is not a threat to US national security. Strikes and demonstrations against President Macron's plan to raise the retirement age in France, causing serious disruption, and Israel's Prime Minister vows to restore unity after another day of protests across the country against a planned judicial overhaul.
新闻标题，TikTok的CEO告诉华盛顿的国会委员会，这款中国拥有的社交媒体应用不会对美国国家安全构成威胁。在法国，反对总统马克龙计划提高退休年龄的罢工和示威活动引发了严重的混乱，以色列总理誓言在全国范围内的另一天抗议活动之后恢复团结，反对计划中的司法改革。
This is Paul Henley with NewsHour, live from the BBC. In Ukraine's eastern Donbass region, the Ukrainian army continues to lose ground to Russian forces in and around Bachmout. But further south, it's a different story.
“大家好，我是保罗·亨利，来自BBC新闻时刻的现场报道。在乌克兰东部的顿巴斯地区，乌克兰军队在巴赫穆特及周边地区继续失地，被俄罗斯军队逐步压制。但是在更南面的地区，情况却大不相同。”
Continuing attacks by Russian tanks and armored vehicles have resulted in heavy losses for Moscow's forces, with almost nothing to show for it in terms of ground gained. Months of battles have turned the countryside and the town of Velika Novosilka into a wasteland where civilians and the military come under daily Russian bombardment.
俄罗斯坦克和装甲车的持续攻击导致莫斯科军队遭受了严重损失，但在占领领土方面几乎没有取得任何成果。数月的战斗让乡村和韦利卡·诺沃西尔卡镇变成了废墟，平民和军队每天都遭受俄罗斯轰炸的袭击。
From there, our correspondent Quentin Somerville and Cameradjernlis Darren Conway sent this report.
从那里，我们的记者昆汀·萨默维尔和摄像记者达伦·康威发送了这篇报道。
Last 10 minutes, about three Russian mortars came into the town of Velika Novosilka, quite close to the car that we were in. It seems like they're using drones to target the fresh traitors all over the place here.
在过去的10分钟里，大约有三枚俄罗斯迫击炮落在靠近我们所在的小镇维利卡·诺沃希尔卡。似乎他们正在使用无人机瞄准这里各处的新叛徒。
But we're going to the infantry positions to speak to some of the soldiers who were with the first separate tank brigade. And Dima is one of them. Hi Dima. Hi. Hi. Hi. Let's go.
但是我们即将去步兵阵地，与一些曾与第一独立坦克旅一起的士兵交谈。Dima就是其中之一。嗨Dima。嗨。嗨。嗨。我们走吧。
Dima is 22 years old and unnervingly tall for someone who spends so much time hunkered down in trenches. He six with four. He was a factory worker before the war. At first, Trance Life with the daily shelling was unsettling. But now he says he's rock solid.
迪玛今年22岁，尽管经常蹲在战壕里，但他的身高让人感到不安。他有一米九五的身高。战争之前他是一名工厂工人。刚开始，每天都有炮火轰鸣，令他的精神不稳定。但现在他说他变得坚如磐石。
Wow. The head was closed. The Russians basically have an unlimited amount of shells. They have entire warehouses full of them. They can shoot them all day and they won't run out. But us, we would run out of shells within the year. So we are forming various assault brigades and we've been given tanks. I think with those we will win. We are causers. So brave guys, we can handle it.
哇，那个炮头被封住了。俄罗斯人基本上有无限数量的炮弹。他们整个仓库都装满了。他们可以整天射击而不会用完。但是我们，我们会在一年内用尽炮弹。所以我们正在组建各种突击旅，并给予了坦克。我认为有了它们，我们就能赢了。我们是缘由者。所以勇敢的人们，我们能应付它。
He was just pointed out one mine sticking out of the soil and sped it in his path. In the actual fact, Ukrainians have made really good use of anti-tank mines which they launched from artillery. In Volodar about 30 kilometers away, Russia lost hundreds of men and dozens of tanks trying to break through. They have tanks close to this position, observation posts and drone teams too. Russian eyes are always watching. You can hear that exchange of fire between the Russians and the Ukrainians and that contested village which is just beyond this wood.
他刚刚被指出了一个突出土壤的地雷，并且绕道走开。实际上，乌克兰人充分利用了从炮兵发射的反坦克地雷。在30公里外的沃洛达尔，俄罗斯试图突破，但失去了数百人和数十辆坦克。他们的坦克就在这个位置附近，还有观察点和无人机团队。俄罗斯的眼睛总是在盯着。你可以听到俄罗斯人和乌克兰人在这片树林后面的争夺村庄中交火。
Closest we get to Russian positions here about 700-800 meters eventually. It's far back along the territory. The Russian shell landed very close to it within the year. Let's get to that change quick. That last round landed pretty close to the Ukrainian trenches and me but everybody has made it inside safely and sheltering with that. Once you're creating infantrymen in the dugout. We were walking in a group and the Russian sauce walking with the drone and that is why we are being shot. I guess the fire will continue for the next 20-30 minutes. It has been really intense hour and a half but this is where these men go through every day. Continual Russian fire from months on end and the injured.
我们离俄罗斯阵地最近的距离大约是700-800米，它位于广阔的领土深处。在一年内，俄罗斯炮弹非常接近我们这里。让我们快点前往那个改变。最后一发炮弹落到了乌克兰壕沟和我身旁很近，但每个人都安全地到达并躲在那里。你们在掩体里开始制造步兵。当时我们一群人走着，俄罗斯侦察机也在空中飞行，这就是为什么我们被射击的原因。我猜在接下来的20-30分钟内开火会继续。这已经是一个非常激烈的一个半小时，但这就是这些人每天经历的。持续数月的俄罗斯火力打击和人员伤亡。
The first separate tank brigade is one of the most decorated in the Ukrainian army. Heavy outnumbered they help save Kiev in the war's early days but more than a year on fatigue is sitting in among Ukrainian soldiers along the front lines. I ask our no-land at Hoda the brigade commander how he keeps his men motivated. How do you motivate a soldier who is protecting his wife, his children, his land, what other motivation is needed. Putin motivated us better than anyone else. If we don't fight now then our grandchildren will have to take up arms and defend their freedom and rights. That's why no matter how hard it is for us we do it now so our children will not have to do tomorrow.
第一独立坦克旅是乌克兰军队中最多荣誉的部队之一。虽然在战争初期，他们面对更强大的敌人，但他们帮助拯救了基辅，但现在已经过去了一年多，疲劳感在乌克兰士兵中间蔓延。我问我们在霍达的旅长，他是如何保持部队的士气的。当一个士兵保护他的妻子、孩子和家园时，你如何激励他？还需要什么其他动力？普京激励了我们，比任何人都更好。如果我们现在不战斗，那么我们的孙子将不得不拿起武器，为保卫自己的自由和权利而战。这就是为什么无论有多难，我们现在都要去做，这样我们的孩子就不必明天再去做了。
Of course this is just a war between two militaries, Russia's targeting civilians, towns and villages to Vlyka Nova Silka was nothing special but the people who lived here are proud of it. They took pride in their new school. They sent the kids to the little Kindle Garden. Now all of that's gone destroyed by Russian shells and it's kind of what's 10,000 people fueling 200 left.
当然这只是两支军队之间的战争，俄罗斯攻击平民居住的城镇和村庄，对于弗利卡-诺瓦-西尔卡来说并没有什么特别之处，但这里的居民为此感到骄傲。他们以他们的新学校为荣，将孩子们送到小的育儿园。现在一切都被俄罗斯炮弹摧毁了，只剩下200人，但他们却能激励着那10,000人。
Off a cold damp corridor and one of the town's remaining bonkers is 74-year-old Maria. She came here so I can come. Wearing a knitted beret she's sitting alone on a bed in a room warmed by a woodburning stove. How was life before here I ask? It was good very good. In our region everything was good. Now everything has been burned and my husband was killed. And can you tell us about your husband? What is that we tell? We were married for 54 years. He was 74 years old. He was already retired but he still worked and everything was fine. As shell flew towards the neighbor's house he came out to see and the shrapnel killed him. It wounded him and then he died. He bled overnight and that was it.
在一条寒冷潮湿的走廊里，镇上仍有一个疯子，他就是74岁的玛丽亚。她来到这里是为了我。她戴着一顶针织贝雷帽，独自坐在一张床上，房间里有一个烧木柴的火炉，很暖和。我问她来这里之前的生活怎么样？很好，非常好。在我们的地区，一切都很好。现在一切都被烧毁了，我的丈夫被杀了。你能告诉我们关于你丈夫的事吗？我们应该说些什么呢？我们结婚了54年。他已经退休了，但他仍然工作，一切都很好。当炮弹飞向邻居的房子时，他出去看，弹片击中了他。他受了伤，然后就去世了。他流了一夜的血，就这样结束了。
The local piano teacher is Irina with blazing red hair and a long coat she refuses to leave to give up on Velika Nova Silka. She lives now in a bunker looking after the older inhabitants. Her own daughter was moved to safety recently. The police came last month and took away all the last of the children. Irina's own home can't be reached. Before she left she covered her piano with a blanket and she hopes it survived. In a nearby school there's another piano but it's broken down. There is no music here now. There is only the sound of shells. The school is smashed. The instruments are ruined but it is okay. We will rebuild it and the music will sound again along with the children's laughter.
当地的钢琴老师是Irina，她有着火红的头发和一件长外套，她拒绝放弃Velika Nova Silka。她现在住在一个掩体里，照顾着老年人。她自己的女儿最近被转移到了安全地带。上个月，警察来了，把所有孩子都带走了。Irina自己的家已经无法抵达了。在离这里不远的一所学校里有另一架钢琴，但已经坏了。现在这里没有音乐，只有炮弹的声音。学校被摧毁了，乐器都被毁了，但没关系。我们将重建它，音乐将再次响起，孩子们的笑声也将回荡。
Quentin Somerville was reporting from near the front line in the war in southern Ukraine. You can see a video of Quentin's dramatic time in the trenches. On our website bbc.com forward slash news. There's just time for a reminder you can listen to news out whenever you like. We've got two editions a day. Find the latest online at bbcworldservice.com or sign up for our download by searching for bbc news hour podcast. I'm Paul Henley. This is news hour from the bbcworldservice.
Quentin Somerville在乌克兰南部战争前线附近进行报道。您可以在我们的网站bbc.com/news上观看Quentin在战壕中的惊险时刻的视频。提醒一下，您可以随时收听新闻。我们每天有两个版本。最新版可以在bbcworldservice.com上找到，或者通过搜索bbc news hour podcast进行下载。我是保罗·亨利。这里是bbcworldservice的新闻时刻。
Welcome back to news hour now in the year to August last year more than 107,000 Americans died from a drug overdose. Two thirds of them having taken a synthetic opioid like fentanyl.
欢迎回到新闻小时，现在我们来到去年八月。在那一年，超过107,000名美国人死于药物过量。其中三分之二的人使用了合成阿片类药物，比如芬太尼。
First manufactured in the 1960s for pain relief fentanyl is now made illegally by Mexican drug cartels and smuggled across the US border in tablet or powder form. Fentanyl is 50 times stronger than heroin and it's wreaking havoc in the US. Linda Presley reports now from southern California.
芬太尼最初在1960年代被制造出来，用于缓解疼痛，但现在墨西哥贩毒集团非法制造并以片剂或粉末的形式走私至美国边境。芬太尼比海洛因强50倍，正在给美国造成严重破坏。现在，琳达·普雷斯利从加利福尼亚南部发回报道。
Once you cross the Mexico US border at San Isidro in Tijuana it's a half hour tram ride to downtown San Diego. This is just one of the many routes along which fentanyl finds its way into the United States.
一旦你从提华纳的圣伊西德罗的墨西哥-美国边境过境，乘坐有轨电车到达圣地亚哥市区只需半小时。这是致使芬太尼进入美国的众多途径之一。
I started taking fentanyl when I was about 23, 24 and how did you take it? I started smoking it. We'll call this young woman Susanna. She graduated from heroin to fentanyl.
我在23、24岁左右开始使用芬太尼，你是如何使用的呢？我开始抽烟吸入它。这位年轻女士我们就叫她苏珊娜。她从海洛因开始吸食芬太尼。
I'm during that time that you were you were taking fentanyl. How are you living? I was living horrible. When I was Susan fentanyl I became a mess. I was barely getting by, barely buying food. I'd have to force myself to eat. I became very obsessed with the drug that I almost didn't believe that I could ever stop and it scared me because I thought that there was no hope.
在你服用芬太尼的那段时间，我也在那。你最近怎么样啊？我当时的生活非常糟糕。当我开始使用芬太尼时，我变得一团糟。我勉强维持生计，勉强购买食物，吃饭也是要强迫自己。我对这种药物非常着迷，几乎不能相信自己能够戒掉，这使我感到害怕，因为我认为没有希望了。
Can you explain the power of fentanyl? Why is fentanyl different to other kinds of drugs? I think fentanyl is a different monster. I unfortunately had to be in the presence of somebody who was dying from an overdose and it's very traumatic. It's very scary. So you're really gambling your life if you get involved with fentanyl.
你能解释一下芬太尼的威力吗？为什么芬太尼与其他种类的药物不同？我觉得芬太尼是一种不同的怪物。不幸的是，我曾经与一个因药物过量而濒临死亡的人待在一起，这非常令人心痛。非常可怕。所以，如果你接触芬太尼，你真的在冒生命的危险。
There are addicts who use fentanyl as their narcotic of choice but there are also thousands of Americans who have overdosed on fentanyl because they weren't aware it was in the drug they were taking. Fentanyl's being pressed into counterfeit painkiller tablets and it's added to heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine and because it's so potent a tiny amount can kill.
有些成瘾者选择芬太尼作为他们的毒品，但也有成千上万的美国人因为不知道他们服用的药物中含有芬太尼而过量服用而死亡。芬太尼被压缩成假药片，并添加到海洛因、可卡因和甲基苯丙胺中，由于它的药效极强，即使极小的数量也可能导致死亡。
American ports of entry are the first line of defense against fentanyl. Around 120,000 people cross the border from Mexico at San Isidro in southern California every day. The director of the port Marisa Marín has her work cut out trying to intercept fentanyl that's mostly smuggled into the US by American citizens.
美国的入境港口是对芬太尼的第一道防线。每天约有12万人从南加州的圣依西德罗边境穿过墨西哥进入美国。港口总监玛丽莎·马林有很多工作要做，努力拦截美国公民大多走私进入美国的芬太尼。
Since 2008 we've seen over an 800% increase and the amount of fentanyl coming into the United States but it's an impossible job for you isn't it because you only need to get a tiny bit across. Yes so it's very lucrative business for the drug smuggling organizations and so a very small amount will provide very large profits for the organizations working to smuggle this across our borders.
自2008年以来，美国进口芬太尼的数量已经增加了800%，但对你来说这是一项不可能完成的工作，因为你只需要搞过少量的芬太尼就可以了。是的，对于毒品走私组织来说，这是一笔非常有利可图的生意，因此只需少量的芬太尼就能为走私组织带来极高的利润，而他们一直在努力将它走私到我们的边境。
They're clever. They're clever and they have more resources than we do. They have an unlimited budget and we have you know resource constraints that we have to be more agile. For the cartels synthetic drugs like fentanyl have become a massive source of revenue with deadly consequences for Mexico's northern neighbor.
他们很聪明，而且拥有比我们更多的资源。他们有无限的预算，而我们，你懂的，必须在有限的资源限制下更加灵活。对于毒品集团来说，合成药物如芬太尼已成为一个巨大的收入来源，对墨西哥北部的邻国造成了致命后果。
That was Linda Presley reporting you can hear more of her report on the BBC's assignment here on the world service. You're listening to NewsHound now from the BBC.
那是琳达·普雷斯利报道，你可以在BBC的世界服务分配节目中听到更多她的报道。你现在正在收听BBC的新闻猎犬节目。
I'm Paul Henley and we return to the defense of the shared video app Tiktok launched by its boss today in front of hostile US politicians in Washington. Tiktok is facing strong calls for a US ban by many Democrats and Republicans who believe it could spread Chinese propaganda spy and steal users data on behalf of the Chinese government.
我是保罗·亨利，我们要回到今天在华盛顿面对敌对美国政治家时，该应用程序老板为共享视频应用程序Tiktok辩护的情况。Tiktok面临着许多民主党人和共和党人强烈要求美国禁止的呼声，他们认为它可能传播中国的宣传谍报，并代表中国政府窃取用户数据。
Members of Congress also accused Tiktok of delivering harmful content to young people. The firm's chief executive shows the chew stressed that most users were over 18 and he said the company was taking measures to protect children.
国会议员们还指责抖音向年轻人传递有害内容。该公司的首席执行官表示，大多数用户都年满18岁，并表示公司正在采取措施保护未成年人。
Now as Tiktok has grown we've tried to learn the lessons of companies that have come before us especially when it comes to the safety of teenagers while their vast majority of people on Tiktok are over 18. One of and one of our fastest growing demographics are people over 35. We spent a lot of time adopting measures to protect teenagers.
现在随着Tiktok的发展，我们试图学习之前的公司的经验教训，特别是在保护青少年的安全方面，尽管Tiktok上绝大部分的人都超过了18岁。我们最快增长的人口群体之一就是35岁以上的人。我们花费了很多时间采取措施来保护青少年。
Congressman Randy Weber is a Republican from Texas. He sits on the committee posing questions to Mr. Shod today and he told us why he thought Tiktok was a threat to US national security.
众议员Randy Weber是来自德克萨斯州的共和党人。他坐在委员会上向Shod先生提问，他告诉我们他为什么认为Tiktok对美国国家安全构成威胁。
They cannot prove Paul that they can keep their information from getting hacked. So when they're going around gathering all this information they can invoke the mighty name of the state of the great state of Texas. Now they can invoke or call they can book any other name they want. They can complain about Facebook or other social media platforms. It doesn't matter. This is Tiktok. We are dealing with and they cannot, cannot absolutely prove that the number one they can protect that information from hacking because I mean let's face it no platform is 100% safe. Number two there was pointed out in committee today a gun video a gun video threatening the life of the chairwoman.
他们无法证明他们能够保护信息不被黑客攻击，所以当他们收集所有这些信息时，他们可以引用德克萨斯州这个伟大的州的强大名字。现在他们可以引用或叫任何其他名字，他们可以抱怨Facebook或其他社交媒体平台，这不重要。这是Tiktok，我们正在处理的是他们无法，绝对无法证明第一，他们可以保护信息不受黑客攻击，因为让我们面对现实，没有任何平台是100％安全的。第二，在委员会会议上指出了一个威胁主席生命的枪支视频。
Accounting Rogers had been up 41 or two days. I forget the exact number. Paul they cannot guarantee safe data in the Chinese Communist Party's not involved. But what did Tiktok's users think about what's happening to their data? Here are some views from New York.
会计师罗杰斯已经连续工作了41或42天，我忘记具体数字了。保罗表示他们不能保证中国共产党没有参与掌控用户数据的安全。但TikTok的用户们对数据的情况有何看法呢？以下是来自纽约的一些观点。
I think Genzi would sort of in their way riot around this. I don't find people going back to other platforms like Instagram or Twitter I think but like Tiktok would find a way to stay or some corporation or another would try and buy them.
我认为Genzi会以自己的方式来闹事。我不认为人们会回到其他平台，比如Instagram或Twitter，但我认为像Tiktok这样的平台会找到留存的方法，或者其他公司会尝试并购它们。
I've heard a lot of stuff about how they're just going to ban it for government officials because they're wary about you know security issues and that makes sense but I'm not sure what it wouldn't mean for people like us just general people. I mean I don't have very much impressive stuff on my phone or what that would not. So I don't know what anybody would want with that.
我听说政府官员可能会被禁止使用手机，因为他们对安全问题很担心，这很合理。但我不确定这对像我们这样的普通人意味着什么。我的手机上没有很厉害的东西，所以我不知道有人会想要我的手机信息。
Melissa Hathaway is president of a US consultancy firm called Hathaway Global Strategies. She's an expert in cyber security having worked for president George W. Bush and president Obama. What did she make of this hearing today?
Melissa Hathaway是一家名为Hathaway Global Strategies的美国咨询公司的总裁。她是网络安全方面的专家，曾为乔治W.布什总统和奥巴马总统工作。她对今天的听证会有何看法？
I've been watching the hearing is definitely a lot of very direct questions to this you have Tiktok. I think- Over five hours of them it's just come to a close I'm told. Yeah yeah I've been watching parts of it this afternoon it's been quite interesting.
我一直在看听证会，他们对你在Tiktok上的问题提了很多直接的问题。我觉得，听证会有五个小时以上，现在听证会已经结束了。嗯嗯，今天下午我一直在看一些部分，非常有趣。
I think it's more important to really talk about what Tiktok has done over the last 18 months to two years in the United States of investing more than a billion dollars to establish the protection of the US consumer data and how the platform is being used in the United States not only by young Americans but also by five million businesses to drive their revenue and and open up new lines of the economy. And so one has to question of why are we talking about an app location an app versus an infrastructure provider in this context and why are we looking at the industry writ large like Facebook and Google and how the industry is protecting US consumer data or global consumer data.
我认为更重要的是，真正谈论TikTok在过去18个月到两年内在美国所做的事情，包括投资超过十亿美元以确保美国消费者数据的保护，并探讨这个平台在美国的使用情况。它不仅被年轻的美国人使用，而且被五百万家企业用来推动他们的收入并开辟新的经济领域。因此，我们必须质疑为什么我们在这个背景下只谈论一个应用的位置而不是一个基础设施提供商，并且为什么我们要看行业（像Facebook和Google）以及行业如何保护美国消费者数据或全球消费者数据。
Well perhaps because a Chinese firm is an easier target did you feel therefore that the criticism that that were being leveled at the boss of Tiktok were criticisms that could have been leveled at any mass use app. For sure I think that that I think unfortunately Mr. Chu is being singled out as the Chinese owned application but honestly that it's about the competition of Americans personal data is being monetized for political and geopolitical gain by all of the platforms and so why don't we have a comprehensive privacy legislation that protects it from being misused.
也许是因为一家中国公司更容易成为攻击目标，您是否认为抖音老板所面临的批评也可以针对于任何大众应用程序呢？当然，我认为很不幸的是，朱总被选为中国所有应用程序的代表，但其实这是关于美国个人数据被平台用于政治和地缘政治利益的竞争，因此，为什么我们不制定全面的隐私法规来保护个人数据免遭被滥用呢？
Surely it's an extra concern if this data is harvestable in China and specifically by the Chinese government which could under Chinese law declare a matter of national emergency and order Tiktok to hand over all data. Great but the national security law one could have yes you could invoke that but there's nothing to prevent the Chinese government from buying from either a direct party of a Facebook or Google or an indirect party of all of the other collected collectible or collected data and Cambridge Analytica would be a really good example of that so what what part of the data are we trying to protect is my question.
如果这些数据可以在中国被收集，特别是由中国政府进行收集，那么这就是一个额外的关注点。根据中国法律，中国政府可以宣布某些事情为国家紧急情况并要求 Tiktok 移交所有数据，这将是个问题。国家安全法案确实可以成为一个问题，但中国政府也可以通过直接从 Facebook 或 Google 或其他收集数据的机构购买数据，或间接购买已收集的数据，这种情况下 Cambridge Analytica 就是一个好例子。所以，我们要保护的数据的哪个部分是我的问题。
Is there an app that doesn't have an agenda in terms of data harvesting? I don't think so because right now most of the apps they basically rely on generally a consumer consent or they've opted you in automatically and then they use and trend that data and sell that data for either advertisements which is how they make their money or they sell it in other ways for other platforms or businesses to take advantage of that information to know where the next petrol or gas station ought to be or the next Walmart or or what is the next product line that would be successful for a particular age group.
有没有一款应用程序在数据收集方面没有任何议程？我认为并没有，因为现在大多数应用程序基本上依赖于消费者同意或者自动选择您，然后使用和趋势化数据，并出售那些数据以赚钱或以其他方式出售给其他平台或企业，以利用该信息来了解下一个汽油或加油站应该在哪里，或者下一个沃尔玛，或者哪种产品线将对特定年龄段成功。
What would be the consequences of a US ban on TikTok? I think I would be very concerned about that this is not this is a US China confrontation versus an overall understanding of a competition and I think that it would it would it would bring about an unprecedented application of the law and one would have to argue that other countries could say look with the United States did as a first mover of banning an app and look at all the other countries that would ban a Facebook or a Google or a Twitter or pick a next generation application like a chat GBT or Bard and that they're concerned about how the data is being used for misused. I very much worry about that.
如果美国禁止 TikTok，会有什么后果呢？我认为我会非常关注这不是美国与中国之间的对抗，而是对竞争的整体理解。我认为这将带来前所未有的法律应用，而且必须要争辩其他国家可能说，看看美国作为第一个禁止应用的先行者所做的事情，所有其他国家都可能禁止 Facebook、Google、Twitter 或者选择像聊天GBT或Bard这样的下一代应用程序，因为他们关注数据如何被使用或者被误用。我非常担心这件事。
You seem to intimate earlier as well that it would leave a considerable hole in the US economy. I think yes I think that one has to look at who are the leaders in the technology development and these in these different whatever applications. Social media platforms the US is actually a leader in this area in many ways and this might be a form of technology jealousy because the algorithm of TikTok is quite is quite good.
你之前也好像暗示了，这会在美国经济中留下重大的缺口。我觉得是的，我认为我们必须看看谁是科技发展的领导者，这些领导者在不同的应用领域。在社交媒体平台方面，美国实际上在许多方面都是领导者，而这可能是一种科技嫉妒，因为 TikTok 的算法相当不错。
US cyber security expert Melissa Halfaway. This week marks the second year that the Taliban have banned girls from going to school in Afghanistan, a measure that was followed by a series of restrictions barring women from universities and most workplaces.
这周是塔利班在阿富汗禁止女孩上学的第二个年头，此举之后还有一系列限制禁止妇女进入大学和大部分职场。美国网络安全专家梅丽莎·哈尔法威可能对此深表忧虑。
Fatima Amiri had managed to get a top school in her university entrance exam despite being wounded in a suicide attack, then she found out she couldn't take up her place. Since that discovery, she's been fighting to get an education as well as trying to recover her eyesight and her hearing. The BBC's Majubur now rusey reports from Turkey.
法蒂玛·阿米里在一次自杀攻击中受伤，但仍在大学入学考试中获得了一所顶尖学校的入取资格，然而她后来发现无法入学。自那以后，她一直在努力求学，并尝试恢复视力和听觉。BBC的马朱卜·努鲁西从土耳其报道。
Inside a modern hospital treatment room, a doctor closely examines an eye through a magnifying glass on high-tech equipment. The patient sitting opposite her is 18-year-old Fatima Amiri from Afghanistan. She has lost her eyesight and nearly all her hearing in a suicide attack on an education center last year. However, she still managed to take part in university entrance exams two weeks later. "I still managed to get a top score and get selected to my favorite program."
在一间现代医院的治疗室内，一位医生透过高科技设备上的放大镜仔细地检查一只眼睛。坐在她对面的病人是18岁的来自阿富汗的Fatima Amiri。去年她在一次自杀式袭击中失去了视力和几乎所有听力。然而，她仍然在两周后参加了大学入学考试。“我仍然成功地获得了最高分，并入选了我的最爱专业。”
An online crowdfunding campaign raised thousands of US dollars, enough to fly her to this modern hospital in the Turkish capital Ankara to pay for her specialist treatment. In the suicide attack last September in the Afghan capital Kabul, more than 50 students mainly women were killed. The target was an education center where women like Fatima were sitting in the classroom and preparing for the tough university exams known as Korak. Fatima vividly remembers that day. "I saw a young man shooting. I couldn't hear his gun fired because the class was shouting loud. I could only see the smoke coming out of his gun. Then I got scared and tried to hide under the table. I could see with my own eyes. My close friends who were like sisters to me being killed."
在网络众筹活动的帮助下，筹集了数千美元，足以让她飞往土耳其首都安卡拉的现代医院接受专业治疗。去年九月，在阿富汗首都喀布尔的一次自杀式袭击中，超过50名学生，主要是女性，被杀。袭击的目标是一所女性教育中心，像法蒂玛一样坐在教室里为备战名为科拉克的艰苦大学考试做准备的女性们。法蒂玛清楚地记得那天。她说：“我看到一个年轻人在射击。由于大家都在大声喊叫，我听不到他的枪声。我只看到他枪口冒出的烟雾。然后我害怕极了，试图躲到桌子下面。我亲眼目睹了我的几个好友，她们就像我的妹妹一样，被杀害。”
Fatima was a top student with some of the nation's best high school grades. She had high aspirations and had plans to study computer sciences. Inside the hospital in Ankara, she is seeing different doctors to treat her eyes and ears. She is accompanied by her father and they have seen several doctors in Afghanistan and Iran in recent months where she also had wind surgery. She has high hopes that the treatment here in Turkey will have a positive outcome. Unfortunately, she is not receiving the result she was hoping for. The doctor tells her the previous operation in Kabul wasn't good. "If we do it again, it damages the ears."
Fatima是一位优秀的学生，高中成绩名列全国前茅。她怀抱远大的理想并计划学习计算机科学。在安卡拉的医院里，她看了不同的医生来治疗她的眼睛和耳朵。她的父亲陪伴着她，并且在最近几个月中他们去了阿富汗和伊朗看了几位医生，其中包括风疗的手术。她非常希望在土耳其的治疗会有积极的效果。但不幸的是，她没有得到她期望的结果。医生告诉她，在喀布尔的之前的手术并不好。“如果再做一次，会对耳朵造成伤害。”
Fatima is trying to come to terms with the news that her eyesight and hearing will perhaps never come back again. "I really wanted to get my eyesight back but it became impossible. I expected I would at least get my full hearing back. But because I had an operation in Afghanistan, I wouldn't have my normal hearing anymore. The sharpness stuck to my face and owned very move because they are too close to my nerves. It is too risky. I am happy that I will get treatment here, but I had higher expectations."
法蒂玛正在努力接受这个消息，她的视力和听力或许再也无法恢复。“我真的很想再次看到光明，但现在这已经不可能了。我原本希望至少能恢复我的听力。但由于我在阿富汗做手术，我再也无法拥有正常的听力了。因为手术太接近我的神经，所以任何动作都会引起极度的疼痛和危险。我很高兴能在这里接受治疗，但我对恢复听力的希望已经不高了。”
She isn't planning to return to Afghanistan immediately since the Taliban banned women from attending university. Her future is now in limbo. That was Majubur now, Roozi reporting from Turkey, listening to the BBC World Service, live from London, this is NewsHour.
她不打算立即回到阿富汗，因为塔利班禁止女性参加大学。她的未来现在处于不确定状态。这是来自土耳其的Roozi报道的声音，我现在是Majubur，在听英国广播公司世界新闻，现场报道这个新闻小时。
Israeli police have arrested dozens of demonstrators during the latest mass protests against government moves to overhaul the judicial system. Water cannon and mounted police were deployed against protesters blocking the motorway in Tel Aviv while water cannon was also used to clear roads in Haifa where crowds chanted shame.
以色列警方在最新一轮的大规模抗议活动中逮捕了数十名示威者，这些抗议活动是反对政府改革司法系统的举动的。在特拉维夫，警方动用了水炮和骑警来阻止抗议者堵塞高速公路；在海法，警方也使用了水炮来清理道路，抗议群众高呼着“羞耻”。
There were suggestions today that the Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Galant had significant reservations about the judicial reforms and there was speculation about his future in the cabinet. After a meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Mr. Galant's team released a statement saying the Defence Minister presented Mr Netanyahu with the impact of the legislative processes on the IDF and the defence establishment. Mr Netanyahu has stated his intention was to proceed with the reform.
今天有人建议以色列国防部长约阿夫·加兰特对司法改革持有明显的保留态度，并且有关他在内阁中的未来的猜测。在与总理本杰明·内塔尼亚胡的会晤后，加兰特先生的团队发表了一份声明，表明国防部长向内塔尼亚胡先生介绍了立法过程对以色列国防军和国防机构的影响。内塔尼亚胡先生已经表示他打算继续进行改革。
"Tonight I am announcing to you, my friends, citizens of Israel, that's enough. I am getting involved. I am putting aside all other considerations and for the good of our people, for the good of our country, I will do everything in my power to reach a solution. The judicial reform for the democracy has to provide a solution to both of our basic needs, to prevent a fracture between our people. Both sides need to take into consideration the claims and concerns of the other sides."
今晚我向你们，我的朋友，以色列公民宣布：“够了。”我要参与其中。我要搁置一切其他考虑，为了我们人民和国家的利益，我将竭尽所能寻求解决方案。民主的司法改革必须提供解决我们双方基本需求之一的方案，以避免我们人民之间的分裂。双方都需要考虑到对方的主张和关切。
As part of his coverage from the region this week, News hour's Tim Franks has been speaking to the former Israeli Prime Minister Aehoj Barak. He asked him to explain his concern about the government's plans for the judicial system.
本周新闻时报的蒂姆·弗兰克斯在该地区报道时，采访了前以色列总理艾胡德·巴拉克。他询问了巴拉克对政府司法系统计划的担忧，并要求他加以解释。
"It's the most severe crisis since the establishment of this state. We had been through seven walls and to the further than infinite numbers of operations. We managed extremely successfully against external threats. This one comes from within."
这是自这个国家成立以来最严重的危机。我们经历了七道困难关卡，并完成了无数次操作，对外部威胁极其成功地进行了处理。而这次危机是来自内部的。
"It didn't start yesterday. I warned against what I called badding fascism on the right wing seven years ago in 2016. This is an attempt to crash the independent judicial system and to push Israel out of the family of democracies. It becomes so intensive that everyone, all the leading groups, basically all the elites in Israel, any field of life, stand firm and say no. We won't let it know pass the wrong as they say in Spanish."
这不是昨天才开始的。我在2016年7年前就警告了所谓的右翼法西斯主义。这是企图摧毁独立司法系统并将以色列从民主国家家庭中逐出的行为。这变得如此严峻，以至于每个人，所有领导集团，基本上是以色列所有精英，无论是生活领域的哪个方面，都坚定地说不。我们不会让它过关，就像西班牙人所说的那样。
"But the truth is you can have hundreds of thousands of people on the street. They have a majority in parliament. They have the desire to get this through in double quick time. Maybe by the end of this month there is nothing you can do to stop them. I don't think so. I think that we already understood. We cannot win. It's not legitimate. So there will be a clash, the constitutional clash without constitution. The laws will go to the Supreme Court because independent citizen will question the legality of these laws and to the best of my judgment with the presence of these protest, the Supreme Court will cancel these laws."
但事实是，你可以在街上拥有成千上万的人。他们在议会中占据多数。他们渴望以最快的速度通过这一点。也许在本月底之前，你没办法阻止他们。但我并不这样认为。我认为我们已经明白，我们无法获胜。这不是合法的。所以将会发生一场没有宪法的宪法冲突。这些法律将会送到最高法院，因为独立的公民将会质疑这些法律的合法性。依我的判断，有了这些抗议的存在，最高法院将会取消这些法律。
"So they might ignore the government. But then the operational units, let's say the head of secret service or head of police or head of the armed forces might fight these contradicting orders. Namely the Supreme Court order to dismantle certain illegal new settlement. And the minister or the government will order not to do it. And they know from all their academies of schools, they know that that's the law. They will do it to have a backing and they will refuse the orders from the minister and we follow the what the Supreme Court will tell them. That will make it even deeper because the government can fire them and replace them by someone else. But even the firing will be brought to the Supreme Court because it will be blatantly unexplainable. Why the hell you had to fire him because he followed the law? So it will come and the Supreme Court will cancel the firing of head of police or secret service or whatever. And it will deepen the issue. But by then you will see not not 300,400 or you will see a million people. And people will go to sleep in sleeping bags and small tents around the nested until the government is to capitulate or fall."
所以他们可能会无视政府。但是操作单位，比如秘密情报机构负责人、警察负责人或武装部队负责人可能会对这些相互矛盾的命令进行斗争。最高法院的命令是拆除某些非法新定居点。而部长或政府可能会下令不这么做。他们知道从所有的学校和学院，他们知道那是法律。他们会这样做以获得支持，并拒绝部长的命令，而是跟随最高法院的指示。这将使情况变得更加复杂，因为政府可以解雇他们，并用其他人取代他们。但即使解雇也将被带到最高法院，因为这将是明显无法解释的。你为什么要解雇他，因为他遵循了法律？因此，最高法院将取消警察局长、秘密情报机构负责人或其他人的解僱，这将加深这个问题。但到那时，你将看到不是300、400人，而是一百万人。人们将在营帐和小帐篷中睡觉，环绕在巢穴周围，直到政府屈服或倒台为止。
"So I am very confident that whatever happens we won't become neither Russia nor Turkey but also an angry opponent. Dictator ship will not survive in this vibrant Israeli society."
所以我非常有信心，无论发生什么事情，我们都不会变成俄罗斯或土耳其，也不会成为愤怒的对手。独裁不可能在这个充满活力的以色列社会存活。
"I hear your principal argument against these judicial changes. It suggests though this is just a cabal of 20 men. They have their supporters. They have their supporters in their millions who voted for them. Could you not see that this could end up? Yes, you may get a million people on the street protesting but you may get a million people on the street who are saying you are illegitimately trying to overturn the will of the people. And then we go from it being metaphorically a civil war into perhaps something more visceral, more physical."
我听到你对这些司法变革的主要争论。它的意思是，这只是20个人的阴谋，但他们有支持者。有数以百万计的人支持他们，他们为其投票。难道你不认为这可能会导致什么后果吗？是的，你可能会有一百万人走上街头抗议，但你可能会有一百万人走上街头说你正在非法地试图推翻人民意愿。然后我们从象征性地变成内战，或许更加直接，更加物理的东西。
"I don't believe it will happen. I cannot promise it but it won't come from our side. Secondly, I don't think that he has these millions behind him. They are isolated. They are minority. I clear my minority. So we are the people. They are the minority. I clear my minority and they feel it."
我不相信它会发生。虽然我不能保证，但它不会来自我们这一方。其次，我不认为他身后有那么多资金支持。他们是孤立的，是少数派。我支持我的少数派。所以我们是人民，他们是少数派。我支持我的少数派，他们感受到了。
"What do you say to those people? Both inside Israel certainly inside the territories and indeed around the world who say that actually this great Israeli democracy that you say that you're protecting. It's been corroded for decades and what has corroded it is the occupation. And what you are reaping now is the price of that because the double standards in democracy, in the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem, well, we're now seeing it inside what's seen as Israel proper."
你对那些人说什么？无论是在以色列内部还是领土内部，甚至在世界各地的人都认为，实际上你保护的这个伟大的以色列民主制度已经被腐蚀了几十年，而腐蚀它的是占领。而你现在所收割的代价，正是由于在约旦河西岸和加沙地带以及东耶路撒冷的民主标准双重标准，现在我们正在看到在以色列境内出现同样的情况。
I would say I do not try to grade the elephants in the room by their importance or objective weight because this is a critical moment for certain aspect of the rules of the game that if we want overcome, we won't be able to deal with the big elephants in the room. So not because they are less important but because they are less urgent.
我会说，我不会根据房间里大象的重要性或客观权重来评分，因为现在是游戏规则的某些方面至关重要的时刻，如果我们想要克服它们，我们将无法处理房间里的大象。因此并非因为它们不重要，而是因为它们不那么紧急。
We first of all have to ignore our difference about the big elephant named occupation. So to speak, the big elephant named religion to state relationship, the big elephant named gaps in opportunities and achievements in the society. The elephants will not disappear but the most urgent objective is to stop this slippery slope toward dictatorship because once it becomes dictatorship, we won't be able even to discuss really those issues not to mention to achieve any change about it.
我们首先必须忽略我们对于名为职业的大象之间的差异。换句话说，大象名为宗教来表达人际关系，大象名为社会中机会和成就的差距。这些大象不会消失，但最迫切的目标是阻止向独裁主义的滑坡，因为一旦它变成独裁主义，我们将无法真正讨论这些问题，更不用说取得任何改变了。
Former Israeli Prime Minister A. Hood barracks speaking to NewsHours Tim Franks, that's it from this edition of the program. Thank you very much for listening. Goodbye for now.
前以色列总理A·胡德在接受新闻小时节目主持人蒂姆·弗兰克斯的访问时表示，节目到此结束。非常感谢您的收听，先告别了。
When you meet someone online, can you trust they are who they say they are? I just started to interact with this person. I keep thinking so much about you. Love Genessa, a true crime podcast from the BBC World Service and CBC podcasts investigating the murky world of online romance camps. It's all well planned. She said, if you really loved it, you do what I asked you to do. Catch up with the whole series now, search for Love Genessa wherever you found this podcast.
当你在网上认识一个人时，你是否能相信他们说的是真的？我刚刚开始和这个人互动。我一直在想着你。《Love Genessa》是来自BBC World Service和CBC Podcasts的真实犯罪播客，调查在线浪漫营地的黑暗世界。所有这一切都计划得很好。她说，如果你真的喜欢它，你就会做我要求你做的事情。现在赶上整个系列，搜索“Love Genessa”，无论你在哪里找到这个播客。
Increasingly, leading brands are recognising payments as a strategic revenue driver. But what kind of payment setup is needed to make this a reality? Find out in Agents behind the figures Season 2, the podcast that goes beyond the data to explore the trends shaping different sectors. Join me, Sharmeen E, as I chat with leading Asia Pacific brands on how payments are being leveraged to increase revenue and contribute to growth. Listen to behind the figures wherever you get your podcasts.
越来越多领先的品牌开始认识到支付是战略性的收入驱动力。但是需要什么样的支付设置才能使这成为现实呢？在《数字背后的人》第二季的播客中，我们不仅会深入探讨塑造不同行业趋势的数据，还会与亚太领先品牌交流，探讨如何利用支付增加收入并促进增长。请加入我，Sharmeen E，一起聆听《数字背后的人》吧。您可以在任何地方收听我们的播客。