Mark Zuckerberg: Future of AI at Meta, Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp | Lex Fridman Podcast #383
发布时间 2023-06-08 22:48:56 来源
The following is a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg, his second time on this podcast. He's the CEO of Meta that owns Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp. All services used by billions of people to connect with each other. We talk about his vision for the future of Meta and the future of AI in our human world. This is the Lex Friedman podcast and now, dear friends, here's Mark Zuckerberg.
以下是与马克·扎克伯格的对话，这是他第二次出现在这个播客中。他是拥有Facebook、Instagram和WhatsApp的Meta的首席执行官，这些服务都被数十亿人用于互相联系。我们谈论了他对Meta未来和人工智能在人类世界中的未来愿景。这就是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客，现在，请好友们欣赏马克·扎克伯格的演讲。
You competed in your first digital tournament and me as a fellow digital practitioner and competitor, I think that's really inspiring given all the things you have going on. So I got to ask, what was that experience like? Oh, it's fun. I know. Yeah, I mean, I'm a pretty competitive person. Doing sports that basically require your full attention, I think is really important to my mental health and the way I just stay focused at doing everything I'm doing. It's like I decided to get into martial arts. It's awesome. I got a ton of my friends into it. We all trained together. We have a mini academy in my garage. I guess one of my friends was like, hey, we should go do a tournament. I was like, okay, yeah, let's do it. I'm not going to shy away from a challenge like that. But it was awesome. It was just a lot of fun.
你参加了你的第一次数字化比赛，作为一名数字工作者和竞争者的我，我认为你拥有这么多事情，这真的很鼓舞人心。所以我想问一下，那次经历是怎么样的呢？哦，很好玩。我知道。是啊，我是一个很有竞争力的人。做需要你全部注意力的体育运动，我认为对我的心理健康和我专注于做所有事情的方式非常重要。就像我决定学习武术一样，很棒。我把很多朋友都带进来了。我们一起训练。我们在我的车库里有一个小型的学院。我想我其中一个朋友说，嘿，我们应该去参加一个比赛。我说，好的，让我们去做吧。我不会躲避这样的挑战。但是很棒，很好玩。
You weren't scared. There was no fear. I don't know. I was pretty sure that I do okay. I like the confidence. Well, so for people who don't know, Jiu Jitsu is a martial art where you're trying to break your opponent's limbs or choke them to sleep and do so with grace and elegance and efficiency and all that kind of stuff. It's a kind of art form, I think, that you can do for your whole life. It's basically a game, a sport of human chess. You can think of there's a lot of strategy. There's a lot of interesting human dynamics of using leverage and all that kind of stuff. It's kind of incredible what you could do. You could do things like a small opponent could defeat a much larger opponent. You get to understand the way the mechanics of the human body works because of that.
你并不害怕。没有恐惧。我不知道。我相信自己能做得不错。我喜欢这种自信。对于不认识的人来说，柔术是一种格斗艺术，你试图折断对手的肢体或勒死对手，并以优雅和高效的方式做到这一点。我认为这是一种艺术形式，你可以终身从事。这基本上是一种人类棋类运动，有很多策略。使用杠杆和其他技巧，有很多有趣的人际动态。你可以做一些像小对手打败大对手这样的事情。因此，由此，你可以理解人体机械结构的方式。
But you certainly can't be distracted. No. It's 100% focused. To compete, I needed to get around the fact that I didn't want it to be like this big thing. So basically, I rolled up with a hat and sunglasses and I was wearing a COVID mask and I registered under my first and middle name, so Mark Elliott. And it wasn't until I actually pulled all that stuff off right before I got on the mat that I think people knew as me. So it was pretty low-key. But you're still a public figure.
但是你肯定不能分心。不，它是100%专注的。为了竞争，我需要克服我不想让它成为一个很大事情的事实。所以基本上，我戴着帽子和墨镜，还戴着COVID面罩，使用我的名字和中间名字注册，所以是Mark Elliott。直到我在上台之前把所有东西都脱下来，人们才知道我是谁。所以它非常低调。但是你仍然是公众人物。
Yeah, I mean, I didn't want to lose. Right. The thing you're partially afraid of is not just the losing but being almost embarrassed. It's so raw, the sport, and that is just you and another human being. There's a primal aspect there. Oh, yeah. That's great. For a lot of people, it could be terrifying, especially the first time you do the come competing and you wasn't for you. I see the look of excitement in your face. Yeah, no fear. I just think part of learning is failing.
是啊，我的意思是，我不想输。没错，你部分害怕的不仅是输，而是几乎被羞辱。这项运动非常原始，只有你和另一个人。在那里有一种原始的方面。哦，是的。对许多人来说，这可能是可怕的，尤其是第一次竞争，而你并不是那样。我看到你脸上的兴奋表情。是的，没有恐惧。我只是认为学习的一部分是失败。
Okay. Right. So I mean, the main thing, like people who trained Jiu Jitsu, it's like you need to not have pride because I mean, all the stuff that you were talking about before about, you know, getting choked or getting, you know, a joint lock. It's you only get into a bad situation if you're not willing to tap once you've already lost, right? But obviously when you're getting started with something, you're not going to be an expert at it immediately. So you just need to be willing to go with that.
好的。对的。我的意思是，像练习柔术的人一样，你需要摆脱自我意识，因为你所谈论的所有关于被掐住或被关节锁定的事情，如果你已经输了，你只需要打出认输信号便可以避免进入糟糕的局面，对吗？但是很明显，当你开始学习一件事情时，你不会立刻成为专家。所以你只需要愿意去迎接这些挑战。
But I think this is like, I don't know. I mean, maybe I've just been embarrassed enough times in my life. Yeah. I do think that there's a thing where like, you know, as people grow up, maybe they don't want to be embarrassed or anything. They've built their adult identity and they kind of have a sense of who they are and what they want to project. And I don't know. I think maybe to some degree, you know, your ability to keep doing interesting things is your willingness to be embarrassed again and go back to step one and start as a beginner and get your ass kicked and, you know, look stupid doing things. And yeah, I think so many of the things that we're doing, whether it's this, I mean, this is just like a kind of a physical part of my life. But, but it running the company, it's like we just take on new adventures and, you know, all the big things that we're doing, I think of is like 10 plus year missions that we're on where, you know, often early on, you know, people doubt that we're going to be able to do it and the initial work seems kind of silly and our whole ethos is we don't want to wait until something is perfect to put it out there.
我认为这有点像，我不知道。我的意思是，也许我在生活中尴尬的次数够多了。是的，我认为，随着人们成长，也许他们不想再尴尬或表现出不合适。他们已经形成了成年人的身份，并且有了自己的意识和想要呈现的形象。我不知道，我认为，你保持做有趣的事情的能力在于愿意再次尴尬，并回到第一步作为一个新手，并得到你的屁股踢和做错事情的样子。是的，我认为我们正在做的很多事情，无论是这个，这只是我生活的一部分。但是，经营公司，我们就像承担新的冒险一样，我们正在进行的所有大事都是长达10多年的任务，在开始时，人们经常怀疑我们能否做到，最初的工作看起来有些愚蠢，我们的整个精神是我们不想等到某事完美了才让其启动。
We want to get it out quickly and get feedback on it. And so I don't know. I mean, there's probably just something about how I approach things in there. But I just kind of think that the moment that you decide that you're going to be too embarrassed to try something new, then you're not going to learn anything anymore. But like I mentioned, that fear, that anxiety could be there, it could creep up every once in a while.
我们想要尽快发布并收到反馈。我不知道，我的做事方法可能有点问题，但我认为当你决定因为尝试新事物而感到尴尬时，你就不会再学到任何东西了。但是就像我之前提到的，那种恐惧和焦虑可能会偶尔出现。
Do you feel that in especially stressful moments that have outside of the gist of Matt just at work stressful moments, big decision days, big decision moments? How do you deal with that fear? How do you deal with that anxiety?
你是否觉得在特别紧张的时刻，可能与Matt的工作压力无关，例如重要决策日或决策时刻，你会感到压力很大？你会如何处理这种恐惧感和焦虑感？
The thing that stresses me out the most is always the people challenges. You know, I kind of think that, you know, strategy questions, you know, I tend to have enough conviction around the values of what we're trying to do and what I think matters and what I want our company to stand for that those don't really keep me up at night that much. I mean, I kind of, you know, it's not that I get everything right. Of course I don't, right? I mean, we make a lot of mistakes. But I at least have a pretty strong sense of where I want us to go on that.
对我造成最大压力的事情总是人际问题。你知道，我觉得策略问题，我通常对我们试图做什么以及我认为重要的价值观和我想让我们公司代表的立场有足够的信念，所以这些问题并不会让我彻夜难眠。我是说，我并不是万事通。当然，我错过了很多，我们犯了很多错误。但我至少对我们应该走向有一个相当强烈的感觉。
The thing in running a company for almost 20 years now, one of the things that's been pretty clear is when you have a team that's cohesive, you can get almost anything done. And you know, you can run through super hard challenges. You can make hard decisions and push really hard to do the best work even in kind of optimize something super well. But when there's that tension, I mean, that's when things get really tough.
经营一家公司已经将近20年，其中一件非常明显的事情是，当您拥有一个团结紧密的团队时，几乎可以做到任何事情。您可以应对极其严峻的挑战，做出艰难的决策，并努力去做最好的工作，甚至在优化某些事物时也是如此。但当存在紧张情绪时，情况就会变得非常艰难。
And you know, when I talk to other friends who run other companies and things like that, I think one of the things that I actually spend a disproportionate amount of time on in running this company is just fostering a pretty tight core group of people who are running the company with me. And that to me is kind of the thing that both makes it fun, right? Having, you know, friends and people you've worked with for a while and new people and new perspectives, but like a pretty tight group who can, who you can go work on some of these crazy things with. But to me, that's also the most stressful thing is when there's tension, you know, that's that that weighs on me.
你知道吗，当我和其他经营不同公司的朋友聊天时，我意识到我在运营这家公司中投入了很多时间去培养一个紧密的核心团队，和我一起经营这个公司。这对我来说既是有趣的事情，有一些长期合作并认识多年的朋友和同事，同时也有新来的人和新观点，但是他们都是一个非常紧密的团队，可以一起完成一些疯狂的事情。但对我来说，最让人紧张的事情也是这个，因为当有紧张情况出现时，我会感到很沉重。
I think the, you know, just it's it's maybe not surprising. I mean, we're like a very people focused company and it's the people is the part of it that that, you know, weighs on me the most to make sure that we get right. But yeah, that that I'd say across everything that we do is probably the big thing.
我认为，你懂的，这可能并不令人惊讶。我的意思是，我们是一个非常注重人员的公司，而人员部分是最让我担心的，我要确保我们做对了。但是，我认为这是我们所做的所有事情中最重要的一件事。
So when there's tension in that inner circle of close folks, so when you trust those folks to help you make difficult decisions about Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, the future of the company and the metaverse or the AI, how do you build that close neck group of folks to make those difficult decisions? Is there people that you have to have critical voices, very different perspectives on focusing on the past versus the future, all that kind of stuff?
当亲密的人中有紧张情况出现时，当你信任这些人来帮助你作出关于Facebook、WhatsApp、Instagram、公司未来和元宇宙或人工智能的艰难决定时，如何建立这样一个亲密的人群来做出这些艰难的决定呢？是否需要有一些人具有批判性的声音，对关注过去和未来有非常不同的观点，等等？
Yeah. I mean, I think for one thing, it's just spending a lot of time with whatever the group is that you want to be that core group grappling with all of the biggest challenges. And that requires a fair amount of openness. And, you know, some in a lot of how I run the company is, you know, it's like every Monday morning, we get our, it's about the top 30 people together.
是啊，我的意思是，我认为首要的是与你想要成为核心群体的人花费大量时间去面对所有最大的挑战。这需要相当程度的开放性。我经营公司的方法很大程度上是，每个星期一早晨，我们会召集约30位高层人员一起开会。
And we, and this is a group that just worked together for a long period of time. And I mean, people, people rotate in. I mean, new people join, people leave the company, people go to other roles in the company. So it's not the same group over time. But then we spend, you know, a lot of times a couple of hours, a lot of the time it's, you know, it can be somewhat unstructured.
我们这个团队已经共同工作了很长时间，虽然人员会随时更替，有些人进来，有些人离开公司，有些人在公司内转换角色。所以随着时间的推移，这个团队也变得不同了。但是我们会花很多时间在一起，有时可能会有几个小时，而且有时候这种会议可能会比较不结构化。
We like, I'll come with maybe a few topics that I, that are top of mind for me. But I'll ask other people to bring things and people, you know, raise questions, whether it's, okay, there's an issue happening in some country with, with some policy issue. There's like a new technology that's developing here. We're having an issue with this partner. You know, there's a design tradeoff and WhatsApp between two things that, that end up being values that we care about deeply.
我们非常喜欢这个想法，我可能会提供一些我心目中的话题。但我会请求其他人也带来一些话题和人物，你知道，提出问题，无论是某些国家出现的政策问题，还是一项正在开发的新技术。我们与某个合作伙伴有问题，还有在WhatsApp中两种价值之间存在一个设计权衡。这些都是我们非常关心的事情。
And we need to kind of decide where we want to be on that. I just think over time, when, you know, by working through a lot of issues with people and doing it openly, people develop an intuition for each other and a bond and camaraderie. And to me, developing that is, is like a lot of the fun part of running a company or doing anything, right? I think it's like having, having people who are kind of along on the journey that you're, that you feel like you're doing it with. Nothing is ever just one person doing it. Other people that disagree often within that group.
我们需要确定自己在这方面的位置。我认为随着时间的推移，通过与他人共同解决问题并公开交流，人们会彼此建立起直觉和团结。对我来说，发展这种关系就像是经营一家公司或做任何事情中的有趣部分。我认为有些人一起走这条路更让人感到愉快。而这并不仅仅是个人的事情，因为在团队中经常存在一些不同意见的人。
It's a fairly combative group. Okay. So combat is part of it. So this is making decisions on design, engineering, policy, everything. Everything, everything.
这是一个相当好斗的团队。好的，所以战斗是其中的一部分。因此，这涉及到设计、工程、政策以及各个方面的决策。总之，什么都包括在内。
Yeah. Yeah. I have to ask just back to you, Joseph, for a little bit, what's your favorite submission? Now that you've been doing it, what's, how do you like to submit your opponent, Mark Zuckerberg? I'm in.
是的。是的。我想问一下你，约瑟夫，你最喜欢的降服技是什么？现在你已经练习了一段时间了，你喜欢怎样把马克·扎克伯格打败？我准备好了。
（翻译尽量传达原意，易读并符合语言习惯）
Well, first of all, I do prefer no-ghee or ghee jitsu. So ghee is this outfit you wear that is maybe mimics clothing so you can choke. Well, it's like a kimono. It's like the traditional martial arts or kimono. I'm pajamas. I'm glad you could choke people with, yes.
首先，我更喜欢不穿戴盖或穿着吉茶式服装。吉茶是一种你穿戴的服装，可能模仿衣服，以便你可以扼住对手。这就像和服一样，就像传统的武术或和服。而我是睡衣，我很高兴你可以用它来扼住人们。
Well, it's got the lapels. Yes. Yeah. So I like jujitsu. I also really like MMA. And so I think no-ghee more closely approximates MMA. And I think my style is maybe a little closer to an MMA style. So like a lot of jujitsu players are fine being on their back, right? And obviously having a good guard is a critical part of jujitsu. But in MMA, you don't want to be on your back, right? Because even if you have control, you're just taking punches while you're on your back. So that's no good.
好的，这个制服有翻领。是的。嗯。所以我喜欢柔术。我也非常喜欢综合格斗。因此，我觉得无衣比赛更接近综合格斗。而且我认为我的风格可能更接近综合格斗风格。所以，许多柔术选手也可以在自己的后背上打得不错，对吧？显然，拥有良好的防守是柔术的关键部分。但在综合格斗中，你不想处于自己的后背上，对吧？因为即使你有控制，你也会在自己的后背上挨打。那就不好了。
Do you like being on top? My style is I'm probably more pressure and I'd probably rather be the top player. But I'm also smaller. I'm not like a heavyweight guy, right?
你喜欢处于上风吗？我个人的风格是更喜欢施加压力并且更愿意当顶尖选手。但是我也比较纤小，不像重量级选手那样。
So from that perspective, I think it's especially because if I'm doing a competition, I'll compete with people in my size, but a lot of my friends are bigger than me. So back takes probably pretty important, right? Because that's where you have the most leverage advantage. Where people, their arms, your arms are very weak behind you, right? So being able to get to the back and take that pretty important.
从这个角度来看，我认为这是非常重要的，因为如果我参加比赛，我会和我的同等身材的人竞争，但是我的很多朋友比我高大。因此，占据对手背部更加重要，因为这是您最具优势的地方。在那里，人们的手臂在身后非常脆弱，所以能够占据对手的背部并进行攻击非常重要。
But I don't know. I feel like the right strategy is to not be too committed to any single submission. That said, I don't like hurting people. So I always think that chokes are a somewhat more humane way to go than joint locks. Yeah. And it's more about control. It's less dynamic. So you're basically like a beep, numbing, a mad-off type of fighter. So let's go, yeah. Back take to a rear naked choke. I think it's like the clean way to go.
但我不确定。我觉得正确的策略是不把所有的精力都放在一个瞬间上。话虽如此，我不想伤害别人。所以我总是认为噎住对手比关节锁更加人道。是的，它更多是关于控制。它不那么动态。所以你基本上就像一个嘟嘟声，麻痹着对手，成为一个像麦道夫一样的斗士。所以让我们尝试后背钩到绞杀，我认为这是一个干净的方式。
Straight forward answer right there. What advice would you give to people looking to start learning Jiu Jitsu? Given how busy you are, given where you are in life, you're able to do this. You're able to train. You're able to compete and get to learn something from this interesting art. Why do you think you have to be willing to? To just get beaten up a lot. Yeah. But I mean, over time, I think that there's a flow to all these things.
这是一个直截了当的回答。您会给想要开始学习柔术的人什么建议？虽然您很忙，处于生活的哪个阶段，但您仍然能够做到这一点。您能够训练，能够参加比赛，并从这门有趣的艺术中学到东西。您认为您为什么需要愿意这样做？因为你会被打得很惨。是的。但是，随着时间的推移，我认为所有这些事情都会有一个流程。
One of my experiences that I think kind of transcends running a company and the different activities that I like doing are, I really believe that if you're going to accomplish whatever anything, a lot of it is just being willing to push through. But having the grit and determination to push through difficult situations. I think for a lot of people that ends up being sort of a difference maker between the people who kind of get the most done and not. I mean, there's all these questions about how many days people want to work and things like that.
我的一种经历让我觉得超越了经营公司和我喜欢做的不同活动，那就是我真正相信，如果你想实现任何事情，很大一部分就是愿意坚持不懈地去做。但是需要有坚韧不拔的毅力去面对困难情况。我认为，对于很多人来说，这往往是最多完成工作的人和最少完成工作的人之间的区别。我的意思是，人们想要工作的天数等问题都存在。
I think almost all the people who start successful companies or things like that are just working extremely hard. But I think one of the things that you learn both by doing this over time or very acutely with things like jujitsu or surfing is you can't push through everything. And I think that that's, you learn this stuff very acutely doing sports compared to running a company because running a company, the cycle times are so long.
我认为几乎所有成功创业企业或类似事物的人都在极度努力工作。但我觉得通过长时间的实践或柔道、冲浪等运动活动，你会明白你不能面对所有困难都强行突破。相比经营一家公司，这些运动活动会更敏锐地让你了解这些事情。因为经营一家公司，周期时间太长了。
It's like you start a project and then it's like months later or if you're building hardware, it could be years later before you're actually getting feedback and able to make the next set of decisions for the next version of the thing that you're doing. Whereas one of the things that I just think is mentally so nice about these very high turnaround conditioning sports, things like that is you get feedback very quickly. It's like, okay, I don't counter something correctly. You get punched in the face.
这就像你开始一个项目，但可能要过数月或者如果你在制造硬件，可能需要几年，然后才能真正获得反馈并能够为下一个版本做出下一步的决策。相比之下，我认为高周转的体育运动非常好，因为你可以很快得到反馈。例如，如果你没有正确防御，就会被打击。
So not jujitsu, you don't get punched in jujitsu, but an MMA. There are all these analogies between all these things that I think actually hold that are like important life lessons. It's like, okay, you're surfing away. It's like, sometimes you can't go in the other direction on it. There are limits to what, it's like a foil. You can pump the foil and push pretty hard in a bunch of directions. But like, yeah, it's some level, like the momentum against you is strong enough. That's not going to work.
所以说，柔术中是不会被打的，但在综合格斗中就有可能。这些事物之间有很多类比，我认为这些类比非常重要，是人生中的重要教训。就好像冲浪一样，有时候你无法顺着浪向另一边冲。就像一个叶片一样，你可以抽动它并在多个方向上用力推挤。但是有一个层面，当力量逆向你时，它就无法奏效了。
And I do think that that's sort of a humbling, but also an important lesson for I think people who are running things or building things. It's like, yeah, a lot of the game is just being able to kind of push and work through complicated things, but you also need to kind of have enough of an understanding of which things you just can't push through and where the finesse is more important. Yeah.
我认为这是一件令人谦虚但又重要的事情，尤其是对于那些运营和建设的人。这就像是，虽然游戏的大部分是能够推动和解决复杂问题，但你也需要对哪些事情是无法推动的、哪些地方需要更多的技巧有足够的了解。
What are your jujitsu life lessons? Well I think you made it sound so simple and we're so eloquent that it's easy to miss.
你的柔术人生有哪些教训？我觉得你的措辞很简单，很流畅，容易被忽视。
But basically being okay and accepting the wisdom and the joy in getting your ass kicked in the full range of what that means. I think that's a big gift of the being humbled. Somehow being humbled, especially physically, opens your mind to the full process of learning, what it means to learn, which is being willing to suck at something.
基本上，要懂得接受并欣赏在生活的各个方面中屡屡受挫、遭遇失败后的智慧和喜悦。我认为被耻辱所打击，尤其是身体上的打击，会赐予我们一份巨大的礼物，即开启我们学习的全过程，明白何谓学习，即愿意接受条条框框，从而不断进步。
I think jujitsu is just very repetitively, efficiently humbles you over and over and over and over to where you can carry that lessons to places where you don't get humbled as much, whether it's research or running a company or building stuff, the cycle is longer. And jujitsu you can just get humbled as a period of an hour over and over and over and over, especially when you're a beginner you'll have a little person, somebody much smarter than you just kick your ass repeatedly, definitively, where there's no argument.
我认为柔术是一门非常重复、高效的技能，它一遍又一遍地让你屈服，直到你能把这些教训带到其他地方，在那里你不会被屈服得那么厉害，无论是研究、经营公司还是建造东西，这个周期更长。而柔术中你只需要在一个小时内反复受到屈辱，尤其是当你是初学者时，会有一个比你聪明得多的人一次又一次地把你踢倒，绝对没有争论的余地。
Oh yeah. And then you literally tap because if you don't tap you're going to die. So this is an agreement, you could have killed me just now, but we're friends, so we're going to agree that you're not going to. And that kind of humbling process, it just does something to your psyche, to ego that puts it in its proper context to realize that everything in this life is like a journey from sucking through a hard process of improving or rigorously day after day after day after day, and you kind of success requires hard work. Yeah, just more than a lot of sports, I would say, because I've done a lot of them, it really teaches you that. And you made it sound so simple. Like it's okay, it's part of the process, you just get humbled, get you out. I've just failed and been embarrassed so many times in my life that like, you know, it's a core competence of this. It's a core competence.
哦，对的。然后你必须小心谨慎地轻敲，因为如果你不这样做，你就会死亡。所以这是一个协议，你刚才本可以杀死我，但是我们是朋友，所以我们会达成协议，你不会这样做。这种令人谦卑的过程在你的心理和自我意识上起到某种作用，让你意识到这个世界上的所有事情都像是一个通过艰苦过程不断提高或者不断追求的旅程，而成功需要艰苦的努力。我会说，它比很多其他的运动都更加教会你这个道理，因为我做过很多种运动。你让它听起来好像很简单。就像这是可以接受的，它属于这个过程中不可避免的事情，你只需要感受到谦卑，然后就出来了。我生命中失败和尴尬的次数太多了，所以，对于我来说，这已经成为了核心能力，核心能力。
Well, yes, and there's a deep truth to that being able to, and you said it in the very beginning, which is that's the thing that stops us, especially as you get older, especially as you develop expertise in certain areas, the not being willing to be a beginner in a new area. Because that's where the growth happens is being willing to be a beginner, being willing to be embarrassed, saying something stupid, doing something stupid. A lot of us to get good at one thing, you want to show that off. And it sucks being a beginner, but it's where growth happens. Yeah.
嗯，没错，这是一个深刻的真理，而你一开始就说过了，那就是这是我们停步不前的东西，特别是当你变老了，特别是当你在某些领域中具有专业知识时，不愿意成为一个新领域的初学者。因为成长发生的地方就在于愿意成为初学者，愿意尴尬，说些愚蠢的话，做些笨事情。很多人想要成为某一方面的专家，想要展示自己的专业能力。但是成为一个初学者确实很糟糕，但也正是成长的地方。是的。
Well, speaking of which, let me ask you about AI. It seems like this year for the entirety of the human civilization is an interesting year for the development of artificial intelligence. A lot of interesting stuff is happening. So meta is a big part of that, meta has developed LAMA, which is a 65 billion parameter model. There's a lot of interesting questions they can ask here, one of which has to do with open source. But first, can you tell the story of developing of this model and making the complicated decision of how to release it?
说起人工智能，让我问一下你的看法。今年对于整个人类文明来说，似乎是人工智能发展一个有趣的年份。有很多有意思的事件正在发生。其中，Meta是其中的重要一块，他们开发了一个65亿参数的模型LAMA，这里面有很多有趣的问题可以探讨，其中之一涉及到开放源代码。但是首先，你能讲述一下这个模型的开发过程并作出如何发布该模型的复杂决策吗？
Yeah, sure. I think you're right. I think you've all that in the last year, there have been a bunch of advances on scaling up these large transformer models. So there's the language equivalent of it with large language models. The sort of the image generation equivalent with these large diffusion models. There's a lot of fundamental research that's gone into this.
是的，当然。我认为你是正确的。我认为你所说的都在过去一年里有了很多关于扩展这些大型变压器模型的进展。因此，有了大型语言模型等同于语言的模型。大型扩散模型的图像生成等效物。这里有很多基础研究。
So, meta has taken the approach of being quite open and academic in our development of AI. Part of this is we want to have the best people in the world researching this. And a lot of the best people want to know that they're going to be able to share their work. So that's part of the deal that we have, is that if you're one of the top AI researchers in the world and come here, you can get access to industry scale infrastructure and part of our ethos is that we want to share what's invented broadly.
Meta采取了开放、学术的方法来开发人工智能。我们希望聚集世界上最优秀的研究者。很多最优秀的人士想知道他们是否能分享他们的工作成果。因此，我们提供了这样的条件：如果你是世界上最顶尖的人工智能研究者，并且加入了我们，你可以获得具有行业规模的基础设施，并且分享新的发明创造的价值是我们的理念之一。
We do that with a lot of the different AI tools that we create. And llama is the language model that our research team made. And we did a limited open source release for it, which was intended for researchers to be able to use it. But responsibility in getting safety right on these is very important. So we didn't think that for the first one, there were a bunch of questions around whether we should be releasing this commercially. So we kind of punted on that for V1 of llama and just released it from research.
我们使用很多不同的人工智能工具来实现这一点。而“Llama”是我们的研究团队开发的语言模型。我们进行了有限的开源发布，旨在让研究员能够使用它。但确保这些工具的安全非常重要。因此，我们认为在第一个版本中，有很多关于我们是否应该商业发布的问题。因此，我们只是将Llama从研究中发布了出来。
Now, obviously, by releasing it for research, it's out there. But companies know that they're not supposed to put it into commercial releases. And we're working on the follow-up models for this and thinking through how exactly this should work for follow-up. Now that we've had time to work on a lot more of the safety and the pieces around that. But overall, I mean, this is, I just kind of think that it would be good if there were a lot of different folks who had the ability to build state-of-the-art technology here.
现在，显然，通过发布研究，它已经公开了。但公司知道他们不应该将此纳入商业发布。我们正在为此努力制定后续模型，并思考这样做应该如何实现，现在我们已经有更多时间来关注安全性及相关方面的问题。但总的来说，我认为，在这里有很多具有建立最先进技术能力的人，这将是很好的事情。
It's not just a small number of big companies. Where to train one of these AI models, the state-of-the-art models, just takes hundreds of millions of dollars of infrastructure. So there are not that many organizations in the world that can do that at the biggest scale today. And now it gets more efficient every day. So I do think that that will be available to more folks over time. But I just think there's all this innovation out there that people can create. And I just think that we'll also learn a lot by seeing what the whole community of students and hackers and startups and different folks build with this. And that's kind of been how we've approached this.
不仅仅是少数大企业。为了训练这些先进的人工智能模型，需要花费数亿美元的基础设施。因此，全球有这种规模的组织并不多。而且这个技术每天都越来越高效。因此，我认为随着时间的推移，更多的人将能够使用这项技术。但我认为还有很多创新可以被实现。我们可以从整个学生、黑客、初创企业和不同的人群中看到他们用这个技术建立的东西，从中学到很多知识。而这也是我们以这种方式处理这项工作的原因。
And it's also how we've done a lot of our infrastructure. And we took our whole data center design and our server design. And we built this open compute project where we just made that public. And part of the theory was like, all right, if we make it so that more people can use the server design, then that'll enable more innovation. It'll also make the server design more efficient. And that'll make our business more efficient too. So that's worked. And we've just done this with a lot of our infrastructure.
这也是我们处理很多基础设施的方式。我们采用了我们整个数据中心设计和服务器设计，创建了这个开放式计算项目，使其变得公共化。其中的理论部分是：如果我们让更多的人使用服务器设计，这将促进更多的创新。并且这样还会使服务器设计更加高效。这也将使我们的业务更加高效。这种方法已经证明行之有效。我们在很多基础设施方面都采用了这种方式。
So for people who don't know, you did the limited release, I think, in February of this year of LAMA. And it got quote unquote leaked, meaning like it escaped the limited release aspect. But it was, you know, that's something you probably anticipated, given that it's just released to research. We shared it with researchers. Right.
那些不知道的人，你在今年二月份进行了LAMA的有限发行，但是它被所谓的泄露了，意思是它逃脱了有限的发行。但是，考虑到它只是发布给研究人员的，你可能已经预料到了这种情况。我们与研究人员分享了它。
So it's just trying to make sure that there's like a slow release. But from there, I just would love to get your comment on what happened next, which is like there's a very vibrant open source community that just builds stuff on top of it.
这只是为了确保慢慢释放。但从那里开始，我很想听听您对接下来发生的事情的评论，即有一个非常充满活力的开源社区在其上构建东西。
There's a LAMA CPP, basically stuff that makes it more efficient to run on smaller computers. There's combining with reinforcement learning with human feedbacks or some of the different interesting fine tuning mechanisms. There's then also like fine tuning and a GPT three generations. There's a lot of GPT for all, alpaca, colossal AI, all these kinds of models just kind of spring up like run on top of it. What do you think about that?
有一个LAMA CPP，它基本上可以使它在较小的计算机上更有效地运行。可以将其与强化学习和人类反馈或其他不同的有趣的微调机制相结合。还有像GPT三代的微调。有很多GPT的变体，像alpaca、colossal AI等等，这些模型似乎只是在其基础上运行。你对此有何看法？
No, I think it's been really neat to see. I mean, there's been folks who are getting it to run on local devices. Right. So if you're an individual who just wants to experiment with this at home, you probably don't have a large budget to get access to a large amount of cloud compute. So getting it to run on your local laptop is pretty good, right? And pretty relevant. And then there are things like LAMA CPP re-implemented it more efficiently. So now even when we run our own versions of it, we can do it on way less compute and it just way more efficient save a lot of money for everyone who uses this. So that is good.
我认为看到它的发展真的很令人兴奋。因为有一些人已经将它运行在本地设备上。对于那些只是想在家里尝试研究这个领域的个人而言，他们可能没有很大的预算来获取更多的云计算资源。因此，能够在本地笔记本电脑上运行它是非常好的，而且非常相关。此外，有一些人重新实现了LAMA CPP，使其更加高效。因此，即使我们自己运行版本，也可以使用更少的计算资源，而且效率更高，可以为使用这项技术的每个人节省大量资金。这是非常好的。
I do think it's worth calling out that because this was a relatively early release, LAMA isn't quite as on the frontier as, for example, the biggest OpenAI models or the biggest Google models. So I mean, you mentioned that the largest LAMA model that we released had 65 billion parameters and when no one knows, I guess, outside of OpenAI, exactly what the specs are for GPT-4. But I think my understanding is it's like 10 times bigger.
我认为值得指出的是，因为这是一个相对较早的发布，所以LAMA并没有像最大的OpenAI模型或最大的Google模型那样处于前沿。你说我们发布的最大LAMA模型有650亿个参数，而除了OpenAI以外，没有人知道GPT-4的具体规格。但是我认为我的理解是它的规模是10倍大。
And I think Google's palm model is also, I think, has about 10 times as many parameters. Now, the LAMA models are very efficient. So they perform well for something that's around 65 billion parameters. So for me, that was also part of this because this whole debate around, you know, is it good for everyone in the world to have access to the most frontier AI models?
我认为Google的掌模型也有大约10倍的参数。现在，LAMA模型非常高效。因此，它们在大约650亿个参数左右的情况下表现良好。所以对我来说，这也是其中的一部分，因为整个辩论主题都围绕着，全球所有人都应该有最先进的人工智能模型的访问权。
And I think as the AI models start approaching something that's like a superhuman intelligence, that's a bigger question that we'll have to grapple with. But right now, I mean, these are still very basic tools. They're powerful in the sense that a lot of open-source software like databases or web servers can enable a lot of pretty important things.
我认为当AI模型接近超人类智能时，我们将面临更大的问题，但现在，这些仍然是非常基础的工具。它们之所以强大，是因为像数据库或Web服务器这样的许多开源软件能够实现很多相当重要的事情。
But I don't think anyone looks at the current generation of LAMA and thinks it's anywhere near a super-intelligence. So I think that a bunch of those questions around like, is it good to kind of get out there? I think at this stage, surely, you want more researchers working on it for all the reasons that Open Source software has a lot of advantages.
但我认为没有人觉得当前的LAMA一代已经接近超级智能。因此，我认为像“它是好的去参与其中吗？”这样的问题，现在阶段肯定需要更多的研究人员从事这方面的工作，因为开源软件有很多优势。
And we talked about efficiency before, but another one is just, Open Source software tends to be more secure because you have more people looking at it openly. And scrutinizing it and finding holes in it. And that makes it more safe. So I think at this point, it's more, I think it's generally agreed upon that open-source software is generally more secure and safer than things that are kind of developed in a silo where people try to get through security through obscurity.
我们之前谈到了效率问题，但还有一个方面是，开源软件更加安全，因为你有更多人公开查看并细致检查它，以发现其中的漏洞。这使得它更安全。因此我认为，现在普遍认为，开源软件通常比那些在一定程度上是由孤立团队开发的软件更为安全。因为后者试图通过对代码的保密来掩盖安全隐患。
So I think that for the scale of what we're seeing now with AI, I think we're more likely to get to good alignment and good understanding of kind of what needs to do to make this work well by having it be open-source. And that's something that I think is quite good to have out there and happening publicly at this point.
因此，我认为在人工智能领域，为了实现良好的协调和理解，我们更有可能通过开源方式实现。这是一件非常好的事情，现在公开发生这种情况。
Meta released a lot of models as open-source. So the Maseline Multi-lingual Speech Model. Yeah, that was neat. I mean, I'll ask you questions about those, but the point is you've open-source quite a lot, even spearheading the open-source movement.
Meta发布了很多开源模型，包括Maseline多语言语音模型。是的，这很棒。我是指，我会问你关于这些模型的问题，但重点是你已经开源了很多，甚至带头推动了开源运动。
Where's, that's really positive, inspiring to see from one angle, from the research angle, of course, there's folks who are really terrified about the existential threat of artificial intelligence. And those folks will say that, you know, you have to be careful about the open-source step. But where do you see the future of open-source here as part of Meta?
在一个角度上看，Meta（Facebook更名后的公司）的开源步伐确实是积极和鼓舞人心的，当然从研究角度来看，也有一些人对人工智能的存在威胁感到非常恐惧。这些人会说，你必须小心开源步骤。但你认为在Meta里，开源的未来在哪里？
The tension here is, do you want to release the magic sauce? That's one tension. And the other one is, do you want to put a powerful tool in the hands of bad actors, even though it probably has a huge amount of positive impact also?
这里的紧张情况是，你是否想要公开魔法酱的配方？这是一种紧张情况。另一个紧张情况是，即使这个工具可能会有巨大的积极影响，你是否想要把强大的工具交到坏演员手中？
Yeah, I mean, again, I think for the stage that we're at in the development of AI, I don't think anyone looks at the current state of things and thinks that this is super intelligence, and the models that we're talking about, the llama models here are generally an order of magnitude smaller than what open AI or Google are doing. So I think that, at least for the stage that we're at now, the equity is balanced strongly in my view towards doing this more openly.
嗯，我的意思是，我认为就目前人工智能的发展阶段而言，没有人认为目前的情况是超级智能，我们所讨论的羊驼模型通常比Open AI或者Google所做的模型数量级要小。因此，我认为，至少在现阶段，我认为公开开展这方面的工作是更有利的。
I think if you got something that was closer to superintelligence, then I think you'd have to discuss that more and think through that a lot more. And we haven't made a decision yet as to what we would do if we were in that position. But I don't think there's a good chance that we're pretty far off from that position.
我认为，如果你拥有了更接近超级智能的东西，那么你就需要更多地讨论和深入思考。至今，我们还没有决定如果我们处于那个位置我们会怎么做。但我不认为我们距离那个位置很远。
So I'm certainly not saying that the position that we're taking on this now applies to every single thing that we would ever do. And certainly inside the company, we probably do more open-source work than most of the other big tech companies. But we also don't open-source everything.
因此，我绝不是说我们现在采取的立场适用于我们所做的每一个事情。当然，在公司内部，我们可能比大多数其他大型科技公司更多地进行开源工作。但我们也没有将所有东西都公开源代码。
And a lot of our, the core kind of app code for WhatsApp or Instagram or something, we're not open-sourcing that. It's not like a general enough piece of software that would be useful for a lot of people to do different things. Whereas the software that we do, whether it's like an open-source server design or basically things like Memcache, a good, it was probably our earliest project that I worked on. It was probably one of the last things that I coded and led directly for the company.
我们为WhatsApp或Instagram等应用编写的核心代码大部分并不开源。它不是一个适用于很多人做不同事情的通用软件。
而我们开源的软件，无论是像开源服务器设计还是像Memcache这样的东西，都非常有用。Memcache可能是我为公司直接编码和领导的最后一件事情，也是我们最早的项目之一。
But basically this caching tool for quick data retrieval, these are things that are just broadly useful across anything that you want to build. And I think that some of the language models now have that feel as well as some of the other things that we're building, like the translation tool that you just referenced.
这个缓存工具主要是为了快速检索数据，这些东西对于你想构建的任何应用都非常有用。我认为现在的一些语言模型以及我们正在开发的其他一些工具（比如你提到的翻译工具）也有类似的感觉。
So text to speech and speech to text, you've expanded it from around 100 languages to more than 1100 languages.
将文本转语音和语音转文本的功能，您已将其从大约100种语言扩展到超过1100种语言。这样做使这一功能更加全面。
Yeah. And you can identify more than the model can identify more than 4,000 spoken languages, which is 40 times more than any known previous technology.
是的。你可以识别出超过4,000种口语，而这比任何已知的先前技术多了40倍。
To me, that's really, really, really exciting in terms of connecting the world, breaking down barriers that language creates. Yeah. So I think I'm able to translate between all of these different pieces in real time.
在我看来，这非常非常令人兴奋，因为它可以连接世界，打破语言带来的障碍。是的，我认为我可以实时地在这些不同的领域之间进行翻译。
This has been a kind of common sci-fi idea that we'd all have, you know, whether it's I don't know, your butt or glasses or something that can help translate in real time between all these different languages. And that's one that I think technology is basically delivering now. So I think that's pretty exciting.
这种想法在科幻小说中很常见，就是我们会有一些能够在现实时间内帮助翻译各种不同语言的东西，比如像眼镜、屁股等。我认为现在技术已经基本实现了这种想法，这让我觉得非常激动人心。
You mentioned the next version of llama, what can you say about the next version of llama? What can you say about like what, what were you working on in terms of release in terms of the vision for that?
你提到Llama的下一个版本，你能说一下下一个版本的情况吗？你能说一下你们正在发布什么样的版本和它的愿景吗？
Well, a lot of what we're doing is taking the first version, which was primarily, you know, this research version and trying to now build a version that has all of the latest state of the art safety precautions built in. We're using some more data to train it from across our services. But a lot of the work that we're doing internally is really just focused on making sure that this is, you know, as aligned and responsible as possible.
我们正在做的很多工作，是把首个版本（主要是一个研究版本）作为基础，试图构建一个具有最新、最高端安全预防措施的版本。我们正在利用来自我们服务中的更多数据来进行训练。但我们内部真正关注的工作，就是确保这个新版本的研发过程是尽可能对齐和负责任的。
And, you know, we're building a lot of our own, you know, we're talking about kind of the open source infrastructure, but, you know, the main thing that we focus on building here, you know, a lot of product experiences to help people connect and express themselves.
嗯，我们正在建设很多我们自己的，你知道，我们谈论的是开放源码的基础设施，但是我们主要关注建设很多产品体验来帮助人们互相联系和表达自己。
So, you know, we're going to, I've talked about a bunch of this stuff, but then you'll have, you know, an assistant that you can talk to in WhatsApp.
所以你知道，我们将要实现的是，我说了不少这样的事情，但是你会有一个可以在 WhatsApp 中与之交谈的助手。这个助手将会很方便易用。
You know, I think I think in the future, every creator will have kind of an AI agent that can kind of act on their behalf that their fans can talk to. I want to get to the point where every small business basically has an AI agent that people can talk to for, you know, to do commerce and customer support and things like that.
你知道，我认为在未来，每个创作者将拥有一种AI代理，这种代理可以代表他们行动，供他们的粉丝们交流。我希望能达到这样一个点，即每个小企业基本上都有一个人们可以与之交流的AI代理，以便进行商业、客户支持和其他事务。
So there are going to be all these different things. And llama, or the language model underlying this is basically going to be the engine that powers that. The reason to open source it is that as we did with the first version is that it, you know, basically it unlocks a lot of innovation in the ecosystem.
那么就会有很多不同的事情要做。Llama（或者是支持它的语言模型）基本上就会成为支撑这一切的引擎。开放源代码的原因是，就像我们在第一版中所做的那样，它实际上在生态系统中释放了很多创新。
It will make our products better as well and also gives us a lot of valuable feedback on security and safety, which is important for making this good. But yeah, I mean, the work that we're doing to advance the infrastructure, it's basically at this point taking it beyond a research project into something which is ready to be kind of core infrastructure, not only for our own products, but, you know, hopefully for a lot of other things out there too.
这将让我们的产品变得更加优秀，同时为我们提供了很多有价值的安全和安全反馈，这对于将其完善非常重要。但是，我是说，我们正在推进基础设施的工作，基本上已经将它从研究项目提升为准备好成为核心基础设施的东西，不仅适用于我们自己的产品，而且希望适用于其他很多产品。
Do you think the llama or the language model underlying that version two will be open sourced? Do you have internal debate around that, the pros and cons and so on? This is, I mean, we were talking about the debates that we have internally and I think I think the question is how to do it. Right. I mean, I think we, you know, we did the research license for V1 and I think the big thing that we're thinking about is basically like, what's the right way?
你认为那个第二版本的语言模型下的羊驼是否会公开源代码？在你们团队内部是否有关于这个问题的辩论？讨论过利弊等等？我是说，我们正在谈论我们内部的辩论，我认为问题是如何去做。我们针对V1进行了研究许可，我们正在思考的主要问题是什么是正确的方式？
So there was a leak that happened. I don't know if you can comment on it for V1. You know, we released it as a research project for researchers to be able to use, but in doing so we put it out there. So, you know, we were very clear that anyone who uses the code and the weights doesn't have a commercial license to put into products and we've generally seen people respect that right, it's like you don't have any reputable companies that are basically trying to put this into their commercial products. But yeah, but by sharing it with, you know, so many researchers, it's, you know, it did leave the building.
发生了一个泄漏事件。我不知道你是否可以就V1发表评论。你知道，我们将它作为一个研究项目发布，供研究人员使用，但在这个过程中，我们公开了它。所以，你知道，我们非常清楚，任何使用代码和权重的人都没有商业许可证可以用于产品，我们通常会看到人们尊重这个权利，就像没有任何受人尊敬的公司试图把它放到他们的商业产品中。但是，通过与如此多的研究人员分享，它已经离开了这栋建筑。
But what have you learned from that process that you might be able to apply to V2 about how to release it safely, effectively, if you release it? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of the feedback, like I said, is just around, you know, different things around, you know, how do you fine-tune models to make them more aligned and safer? And you see all the different data recipes that, you know, you mentioned a lot of different projects that are based on this. I mean, there's one at Berkeley. There's, you know, there's just like all over. And people have tried a lot of different things and we've tried a bunch of stuff internally. So kind of where we're making progress here, but also we're able to learn from some of the best ideas in the community. And, you know, I think it, you know, we want to just continue, continue pushing that forward.
那么在这个过程中你们学到了什么经验可以应用到V2的发布中，以安全、有效的方式发布它呢？我认为很多反馈都集中在不同的方面，比如如何调整模型，使它们更加精准和安全。你看到了许多基于这些数据食谱的不同项目，比如在伯克利有一个项目，还有其他的，遍布各地。人们尝试了很多不同的方法，我们也在内部尝试了很多东西。我们正在取得进展，同时也能从社区中获得一些最好的想法。我认为我们需要继续推进这一进程。
But I don't have any news to announce. Oh, right. That's, if that's what you're asking. I mean, this is a thing that we're, we're still, we're still kind of, you know, actively working through the right way to move forward here. The details of the secret sauce are still being developed.
但是我没有任何消息可以宣布。哦，对了。 如果这是你想问的话。我的意思是，这是我们仍在积极研究寻找前进的正确方式的事情。秘密酱的细节仍在不断发展。
I see. Can you comment on what do you think of the thing that worked for GPT, which is the reinforcement learning with human feedback. So doing this alignment process, do you find it interesting? And as part of that, let me ask, because I talked to Jan Lecun before talking to you today, he asked me to ask or suggested that I ask, do you think LLM fine tuning will need to be crowd sourced Wikipedia style? So crowd sourcing. So this kind of idea of how to integrate the human in the fine tuning of these foundation models.
我明白。你能否谈谈你对GPT所使用的强化学习和人类反馈的工作方式的看法？那么，在进行这个调整过程时，你发现这很有趣吗？作为其中的一部分，让我问一下，因为今天在与你进行交谈之前我曾与Jan Lecun交谈过，他建议我问你，LLM微调是否需要采用维基百科风格的众包方式？即众包。这种关于如何将人类整合到这些基础模型的微调中的想法。
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting idea that I've talked to Jan about a bunch. And you know, we're talking about how do you basically train these models to be as safe and aligned and responsible as possible. And you know, different groups out there who are doing development test different data recipes in fine tuning. But this idea that you just mentioned is that at the end of the day, instead of having kind of one group fine tune some stuff and another group, you know, produce a different fine tuning recipe and then us trying to figure out which one we think works best to produce the most aligned model. I do think that it would be nice if you could get to a point where you had a Wikipedia style collaborative way for a kind of a broader community to fine tune it as well.
是的，我认为这个想法非常有趣，我曾与扬讨论过很多次。我们正在讨论如何训练模型尽可能安全、对齐和负责任。不同的团体在开发中测试不同的数据配方进行微调。但是你刚才提到的这个想法是，最终不是由一个团体进行微调，另一个团体生产不同的微调配方，然后我们试图找出哪一个最有效地产生最对齐的模型。我认为，如果你能够达到一个维基百科式的共同微调方式，让更广泛的社区也能微调，那将是很好的。
Now, there's a lot of challenges in that both from an infrastructure and like a community management and product perspective about how you do that. So I haven't worked that out yet. But as an idea, I think it's quite compelling. And I think it goes well with the ethos of open sourcing the technology is also finding a way to have a kind of community driven training of it. But I think that there are a lot of questions on this.
现在，要想实现这一点，无论是从基础设施、社区管理还是产品方面来看，都会面临很多挑战。所以我还没有想好怎么做。不过，作为一个想法，我觉得它相当吸引人。而且，让技术成为开源的同时，找到一种社区驱动的培训方式也很符合我们的理念。但我还觉得这方面还有很多问题需要解决。
In general, these questions around what's the best way to produce aligned AI models, it's very much a research area. And it's one that I think we will need to make as much progress on as the kind of core intelligence capability of the models themselves.
一般来说，围绕如何制作对齐的AI模型的问题，这是一个非常活跃的研究领域，我认为我们需要在这个领域取得与模型本身核心智能能力所获得的同等进步。
Well, I just did a conversation with Jimmy Wells, the founder of Wikipedia. And to me, Wikipedia is one of the greatest websites ever created and is a kind of a miracle that it works. And I think it has to do with something that you mentioned, which is community. You have a small community of editors that somehow work together well. And they handle very controversial topics and they handle it with balance and with grace, despite the attacks that will often happen. A lot of the time.
我刚刚与维基百科创始人Jimmy Wells 进行了一次交流。 对我来说，维基百科是有史以来最伟大的网站之一，创造了一个奇迹。 而且，我认为这与您提到的社区有关。 你们拥有一个小的编辑社区，他们以某种方式良好的合作。 虽然经常会遭到攻击，但他们处理非常有争议的话题并以平衡和优雅的方式进行处理。大多数情况下。
I mean, it has issues just like any other human system. But yes, I mean, the balance is amazing what they've been able to achieve. But it's also not perfect. And I think that there's still a lot of challenges. Right.
我的意思是，它跟其他任何人类系统一样都存在问题。但是是的，他们所能实现的平衡是令人惊人的。但它也并非完美无缺。我认为还存在许多挑战。没错。
So the more controversial the topic, the more difficult the journey towards quote unquote truth or knowledge or wisdom that we could be interested capture. In the same way, AI models, we need to be able to generate those same things, truth, knowledge and wisdom and how do you align those models that they generate something that is closest to truth.
因此，话题越具争议性，我们对所谓的真理、知识或智慧的探寻之旅就越困难，但我们却对其感兴趣。同样地，对于人工智能模型，我们需要能够产生同样的东西，即真理、知识和智慧，而如何对这些模型进行调整，使它们产生最接近真理的结果，则是需要考虑的问题。
There's these concerns about misinformation, all this kind of stuff that nobody can define. And it's something that we together as a human species have to define, like what is truth and how to help AI systems generate that. And one of the things that language models do really well is generate convincing sounding things that can be completely wrong. And so how do you align it to be less wrong and part of that is the training and part of that is the alignment and however you do the alignment stage. And just like you said, it's a very new and a very open research problem.
当前有关于误导信息的种种担忧，但没有人能够定义，这是我们作为人类物种必须定义的东西，包括什么是真相以及如何帮助AI系统生成真相。语言模型有一个很好的特点，就是可以生成听起来非常有说服力但完全错误的东西。所以如何使之更加准确，其中一部分是基于训练，另一部分是基于对齐，而如何进行对齐阶段则仍是一个非常新的和非常开放的研究问题。
Yeah. And I think that there's also a lot of questions about whether the current architecture for LLMs as you continue scaling it, what happens. I mean, a lot of what's been exciting in the last year is that there's clearly a qualitative breakthrough where with some of the GPT models that open, I put out and that others have been able to do as well. I think it reached a kind of level of quality where people are like, wow, this feels different and like it's going to be able to be the foundation for building a lot of awesome products and experiences and value.
嗯，我认为关于随着扩展，当前LLMs的架构是否会出现问题也存在很多疑问。过去一年的一些令人兴奋的地方在于，显然有了一种质的突破，通过一些我和其他人发布的GPT模型。我认为它已经达到了一定的质量水平，让人们感到“哇，这感觉不同，它将能够成为建立很多令人惊叹的产品、经验和价值的基础”。
But I think the other realization that people have is, wow, we just made a breakthrough. If there are other breakthroughs quickly, then I think that there's the sense that maybe we're closer to general intelligence. But I think that that idea is predicated on the idea that I think people believe that there's still generally a bunch of additional breakthroughs to make and that it's, we just don't know how long it's going to take to get there.
但我认为人们另一个的体会是：“哇，我们刚刚取得了突破。”如果接下来出现了其他突破，那么我认为人们可能会感觉我们离强人工智能更近了一步。但我认为这个想法基于一个前提，即人们相信还有许多额外的突破要进行，而我们不知道到达目标需要多久的时间。
And one view that some people have, this doesn't tend to be my view as much, is that simply scaling the current LLMs and getting to higher parameter count models by itself will get to something that is closer to general intelligence.
有一种观点，不太是我的观点，认为仅仅通过扩大当前的LLMs规模和增加参数数量就可以接近于通用智能。
But I tend to think that there's probably more fundamental steps that need to be taken along the way there. But still the leaves taken with this extra alignment step is quite incredible, quite surprising to a lot of folks. And on top of that, when you start to have hundreds of millions of people potentially using a product that integrates that, you can start to see civilization transforming effects before you achieve super quote unquote super intelligence. It could be super transformative without being a super intelligence.
我倾向于认为在这个过程中可能还需要采取更基本的步骤。但是，即使如此，这个额外的对齐步骤所带来的效果也非常惊人，让很多人感到惊讶。此外，当你开始有数以亿计的人可能使用一个集成了这一技术的产品时，你会发现在实现超级智能之前，文明会出现转型效应。它可以是超级转型，而不是超级智能。
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that there are going to be a lot of amazing products and value that can be created with the current level of technology. To some degree, I'm excited to work on a lot of those products over the next few years. And I think it would just create a tremendous amount of whiplash if the number of breakthroughs keeps, if they're keep on being stacked breakthroughs, because I think to some degree, industry in the world needs some time to kind of build these breakthroughs into the products and experiences that we all use that we can actually benefit from them.
哦，是的。我的意思是，我认为在当前技术水平下，将会有很多惊人的产品和价值被创造出来。在一定程度上，我对未来几年能研发出很多这样的产品感到兴奋。我认为，如果突破不断地增加，将会产生巨大的反弹效应，因为我认为，行业和世界需要一些时间将这些突破建立在我们所有人使用的产品和体验中，以便我们真正从中获益。
But I don't know, I think that there's just a, like an awesome amount of stuff to do. I mean, I think about like all of the small businesses or individual entrepreneurs out there who now we're going to be able to get help coding the things that they need to go build things or designing the things that they need or we'll be able to use these models to be able to do customer support for the people that they're serving over WhatsApp without having to, I think that's just going to be, I just think that this is all going to be super exciting. It's going to create better experiences for people and just unlock a ton of innovation and value.
但我不知道，我认为有很多很棒的事情可以做。我想到所有的小企业或个体经营者，他们现在会获得编码所需的帮助，设计所需的东西，或者可以使用这些模型来为他们在WhatsApp上服务的客户提供客户支持，而不必......我认为这将是非常令人兴奋的。这将为人们创造更好的体验，释放大量的创新和价值。
So I don't know if you know, but what is it? Over 3 billion people use WhatsApp, Facebook and Instagram. So any kind of AI-fueled products that go into that, like we're talking about anything with LLMs will have a tremendous amount of impact. Do you have ideas and thoughts about possible products that might start being integrated into these platforms used by so many people?
我不知道你是否已经知道，但是什么是它呢？超过30亿人使用WhatsApp、Facebook和Instagram。因此，任何使用LLMs的人工智能产品，都会产生巨大的影响。你是否有可能会在这些被如此多人使用的平台上集成的可能产品方面的想法和思考呢？
Yeah, I think there's three main categories of things that we're working on.
是的，我认为我们正在处理的事情可以分为三个主要类别。
The first that I think is probably the most interesting is there's this notion of like you're going to have an assistant or an agent who you can talk to.
我认为最有趣的一点是未来可能会有一种助手或代理人，你可以与之交谈。
这句话的意思是，未来可能会出现一种智能助手或代理人，人们可以直接与它进行交流，从而方便地获取信息和执行各种任务。这种技术在人工智能和自然语言处理方面已经有了一些进展。
And I think probably the biggest thing that's different about my view of how this plays out from what I see with OpenAI and Google and others is everyone else is building the one singular AI.
我认为，与OpenAI和Google等其他人所看到的情况不同的是，我对此如何发展的观点可能最大的不同是，其他人都在构建单一的AI。
It's like, okay, you talk to chat GPT or you talk to BARD or you talk to Bing. And my view is that they're going to be a lot of different AI's that people are going to want to engage with just like you want to use a number of different apps for different things and you have relationships with different people in your life who fill different emotional roles for you.
这就像，你跟聊天 GPT、BARD或者Bing交流一样。我认为，人们将会想要使用许多不同的AI进行交互，就像你想使用不同的应用程序来完成不同的任务，你在生活中也与不同的人建立不同的情感关系。
I think that there are going to be people of a reason that I think you don't just want a singular AI. And that I think is probably the biggest distinction in terms of how I think about this.
我认为会有一些理性的人会认为，你不仅仅想要一个单一的人工智能。我认为这可能是我思考这个问题时最大的区别点。
And a bunch of these things I think you'll want an assistant.
我认为你会需要一位助手来完成这些东西。
I think every creator who you interact with will ultimately want some kind of AI that can proxy them and be something that their fans can interact with or that allows them to interact with their fans.
我认为每位创作者最终都希望有一种能够代理他们并让他们的粉丝与之互动的人工智能，或者让他们与粉丝互动的工具。
This is like the common creator promise.
这就像是通常的创作者承诺一样。意思是说，这是一种常见的声明或保证。
Everyone's trying to build a community and engage with people and they want tools to be able to amplify themselves more and be able to do that.
每个人都在尝试建立社区并与人们互动，他们希望有工具来让自己更加突出，并能够做到这一点。
But you only have 24 hours in a day. So I think having the ability to basically like bottle up your personality and or you know, like give your fans information about when you're performing a concert or something like that.
但是你一天只有24个小时，所以我认为拥有将你的个性储存起来，或者向你的粉丝提供有关你演唱会等信息的能力是非常重要的。
I mean, that I think is going to be something that's super valuable, but it's not just that, you know, again, it's not this idea that I think people are going to want just one singular AI.
我的意思是，我认为这将是非常有价值的东西，但这不仅仅是这样，你知道，这不是我认为人们只想要一个单一的人工智能的想法。
I think you're going to, you know, you're going to want to interact with a lot of different entities.
我认为你会想要与很多不同的实体进行互动。
And then I think there's the business version of this too, which we've touched on a couple of times, which is I think every business in the world is going to want basically an AI that that, you know, it's like you have your page on Instagram or Facebook or WhatsApp or whatever, and you want to, you want to point people to an AI that people can interact with.
然后我认为还有商业版本的这个，我们已经提到了几次，我认为全世界的企业都希望拥有一款基本的人工智能，这样你就可以在Instagram或Facebook或WhatsApp等页面上指向人们可以互动的人工智能。
But you want to know that that AI is only going to sell your products. You don't want it, you know, recommending your competitors stuff.
但是，你需要知道的是，这个人工智能只会销售你的产品。你不希望它推荐你的竞争对手的商品。
Right. So, so it's not like there can be like just, you know, one singular AI that that can answer all the questions for a person because, you know, that quite like that AI might not actually be aligned with you as a business to, to really just do the best job providing support for, for your product.
所以，这并不像有一个单一的人工智能可以回答一个人所有的问题，因为那个人工智能可能实际上并不与您的业务对齐，不能为您的产品提供最好的支持。
I think that there's going to be a clear need in the market and in people's lives for there to be a bunch of these.
我认为市场和人们的生活中将会明显需要一堆这样的产品。
Part of that is figuring out the research, the technology that enables the personalization that you're talking about.
其中一部分工作是要明确研究和技术，以实现你所说的个性化。
So not one centralized God like LLM, but one just a huge diversity of them that's fine-tuned to particular needs, particular styles, particular businesses, particular brands, all that kind of stuff.
并非像LLM那样一个中央的上帝，而是有一大群神祗，他们根据不同的需求、不同的风格、不同的企业、不同的品牌来进行精细调整。
And also enabling, just enabling people to create them really easily for the, you know, for your own business or if you're a creator to be able to help you engage with your fans.
还有一点很重要，那就是让人们轻松地创作它们，不管是为自己的业务还是作为创作者，都能帮助你更好地与粉丝互动。
And I, I think that's, so yeah, I think that there, there's a clear kind of interesting product direction here that I think is fairly unique from, from what, you know, any of the other big companies are taking.
我认为，是的，我认为这里有一个明确的、有趣的产品方向，相对于其他大公司正在采取的方向是非常独特的。
It also aligns well with this sort of open source approach because again, we sort of believe in this more community oriented, more democratic approach to building out the products and technology around this.
这与开源方法相适应，因为我们相信更加注重社区、更加民主的方法来建设周围的产品和技术。
We don't think that there's going to be the one true thing.
我们认为不会有一件真正的事情。意思是说，我们认为没有什么是绝对正确或真实的，需要保持开放的思维去接受和理解事物。
We think that there should be kind of a lot of development.
我们认为应该有相当多的发展。
So that part of things I think is going to be really interesting.
我认为这部分内容将非常有趣。
And we could, we could go price spend a lot of time talking about that and the kind of implications of, of that approach being different from what others are taking.
我们可以花很多时间来谈论这个问题，探讨其所带来的影响，以及这种做法与其他人所采取的做法不同的方面。
But there's a bunch of other simpler things that I think we're also going to do, just going back to your, your question around how this finds its way into like what, what do we build?
我认为我们还将做一堆其他简单的事情，回答你提出的问题：“这将如何融入我们建造的东西中？”
There are going to be a lot of simpler things around, okay, you, you post photos on Instagram and Facebook and, you know, and WhatsApp and messenger and like you want the photos to look as good as possible.
未来会有很多简单易用的工具出现。比如说你会在Instagram、Facebook、WhatsApp和Messenger上发布照片，你希望这些照片看起来尽可能好看。
So like having an AI that you can just like take a photo and then just tell it like, okay, I want to edit this thing or describe this.
就好像拥有一种人工智能，你只需拍照然后告诉它，好的，我想编辑这个东西或描述它。
It's like, I think we're, we're going to have tools that are just way better than, than what we've historically had on this.
就像是，我认为我们将拥有比过去更好的工具。
And that's more in the image and media generation side than the large language model side, but, but it's, it all kind of, you know, plays off of advances in the same space.
这更多是关于影像和媒体生成方面而非大语言模型方面，但所有这些都基于同一领域的进步相互影响。
So there are a lot of tools that I think are just going to get built into every one of our products. I think every single thing that we do is going to basically get evolved in this direction, right?
我认为很多工具都将被整合到我们的每个产品中。我认为我们所做的每一件事情都将朝这个方向发展，对吧？
It's like in the future, if you're advertising on our services, like do you need to make your own kind of ad creative?
就好像在将来，如果你要在我们的服务上投广告，你需要自己制作广告创意吗？
No, you'll just, you know, you just tell us, okay, I'm, I'm a dog walker and I am willing to walk people's dogs and help me find the right people and like create the ad unit that will perform the best and like give an objective to, to the system.
不，你只需要告诉我们，好的，我是一位遛狗人，愿意遛别人的狗，帮助我找到合适的人，并创造最有效的广告程式，为系统设定一个目标。
And it just kind of like connects you with the right people. But that's a super powerful idea of generating the language almost like rigorous A.B. testing for you.
这个想法能够把你和正确的人联系起来，这相当有力。这就像是为你的语言生成严格的 A.B. 测试。
Yeah. That works to find the best customer for your thing.
没问题。这样做可以找到最合适的客户。
I mean, to me, advertisement when done well just finds a good match between a human being and a thing that will make that human being happy.
我觉得广告如果做得好，就是找到一个人和一件能让他快乐的东西之间的好匹配。
Yeah, totally. And do that as efficiently as possible. But it's done well. People actually like it.
是的，完全没问题。并且尽可能高效地完成。 但它被很好地完成了。人们实际上喜欢它。
You know, it's, yeah, I think that there's a lot of examples where it's not done well and it's annoying and I think that's what kind of gives it a bad rap.
你知道，有很多例子表明这种做法并不好，而且很让人烦恼，我认为这就是它被批评的原因。
But yeah, and a lot of the stuff is possible today. I mean, obviously A.B. testing stuff is built into a lot of these frameworks. The thing that's new is having technology that can generate the ideas for you about what to A.B. test. Something like that's exciting.
是的，今天很多东西都是可能的。我的意思是，显然A.B.测试的东西已经内置在许多框架中了。新的是，有一种技术能够为你生成关于A.B.测试什么的想法。这样的东西非常令人兴奋。
So this will just be across like everything that we're doing, where all the metaverse stuff that we're doing, right?
所以这只是关于我们所做的所有元宇宙相关的事情，对吧？表达的意思是，这个计划将涉及我们公司在元宇宙领域开展的所有活动。
It's like you want to create worlds in the future, you'll just describe them and then it'll create the code for you.
这就像你想要创造未来的世界一样，你只需描述它们，然后它就会为你创建代码。
So the natural language becomes the interface we use for all the ways we interact with the computer with the digital more of them.
因此，自然语言成为我们与计算机和数字技术互动的所有方式的界面。
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, which is what everyone can do using natural language and with translation, you can do it in any kind of language.
是啊，用自然语言，每个人都能做到；而有了翻译，你就可以用任何语言做到。
I mean, for the personalization, it's really, really, really interesting.
我的意思是，针对个性化定制，它真的、真的、真的很有趣。
Yeah. And I'll lock so many possible things. I mean, I, for one, look forward to creating a copy of myself.
是的。而且我会锁定许多可能的事情。我的意思是，我很期待创造一个关于我自己的副本。
I don't know. We talked about this last time.
我不知道。上次我们谈到过这个。
But this has since the last time this becomes. Now we're closer. Much closer.
但自上次发生以来，情况已经有所改变。现在我们更接近了。非常接近。
Like I could literally just have me interact with some of these language models. I can see the absurd situation where I'll have a large or a Lex language model and I'll have to have a conversation with him about like, hey, listen, like you're just getting out of line and having a conversation where you fine tune that thing to be a little bit more respectful or something like this.
我可以直接与一些语言模型互动。我可以想象一个荒谬的情况，我可能需要与一个较大的或Lex语言模型进行交谈，告诉他，嘿，听着，你有些偏离了，需要进行一些微调，变得更加尊重等等。
I mean, that's going to be the. That seems like an amazing product for businesses, for humans, just not just the assistant that's facing the individual, but the assistant that represents the individual to the public, both directions.
我的意思是，这将是一款非常出色的产品，适用于企业和人类，不仅仅是向个人提供的助手，还可以代表个人与公众进行双向交流。
There's basically a layer that is the AI system through which you interact with the outside world, with the outside world that has humans in it. That's really interesting.
基本上，有一层是AI系统，它通过这一层与外界进行交互，外界包括有人类的世界。这真的很有趣。
And you that have social networks that connect billions of people, it seems like a heck of a large scale place to test some of this stuff out.
对于你们那些能够连接数十亿人的社交网络，似乎这是一个非常大规模的地方可以测试一些这种东西。
Yeah, I mean, I think part of the reason why creators will want to do this is because they already have the communities on our services.
是的，我的意思是，创作者会想这样做的部分原因是因为他们已经在我们的服务上有了自己的社区。
Yeah. And a lot of the interface for this stuff today are chat type interfaces and between WhatsApp and Messenger, I think that those are just great ways to interact with people.
是的。而现今很多这类产品的界面都采用了聊天界面，我认为WhatsApp和Messenger是与人交互的绝佳方式。
So some of this is philosophy, but do you see a near term future where you have some of the people your friends with, are AI systems on these social networks, on Facebook, on Instagram, even on WhatsApp, having conversations where some heterogeneous, some human, some is AI.
有些可能比较抽象，但是你是否认为在不太遥远的未来，你所交友的一些人可能会是社交网络上的人工智能系统，例如Facebook、Instagram，甚至WhatsApp，这些人工智能与你进行交谈时，有些是人类，有些是AI。
I think we'll get to that. And if only just empirically looking at Microsoft released this thing called Showice several years ago, and China, it was a pre-LOM chatbot technology that's a lot simpler than what's possible today.
我认为我们会达成这一点。如果只是通过实际观察，微软几年前推出了一个叫 Showice 的东西，它是一种比目前可能的技术简单得多的预先学习模式（LOM）聊天机器人技术。
And I think there's like tens of millions of people were using this and just really became quite attached and built relationships with it, and I think that there's services today, like replica where people are doing things like that.
我认为有数千万人在使用这个产品，并且对它非常依赖并建立了关系，现在也有像 Replica 这样的服务，人们在做着类似的事情。
So I think that there's certainly needs for companionship that people have, older people. And I think most people, I don't know as many friends as they would like to have, right?
我认为老年人确实需要陪伴。而且，我认为大多数人并没有像他们想要的那样多的朋友，对吧？
If you look at, there's some interesting demographic studies around the average person has the number of close friends that they have is fewer today than it was 15 years ago.
如果你看一下，会发现有一些有趣的人口统计学研究表明，普通人现在拥有的亲密朋友数量比15年前少了。
And I mean, that gets to like, this is like the core thing that I think about in terms of building services that help connect people. So I think you'll get tools that help people connect with each other are going to be the primary thing that we want to do.
我的意思是，这是我认为建立有助于联络人们的服务中的核心问题。因此，我认为我们需要的主要功能是可以帮助人们相互联系的工具。
So you can imagine AI assistants that just do a better job of reminding you when it's your friend's birthday and how you could celebrate them. It's like, right now we have the little box in the corner of the website that tells you whose birthday it is and stuff like that. But at some level, you don't want to just want to send everyone a note.
你可以设想一下AI助手，它们能更好地提醒你朋友的生日以及如何庆祝他们。就像现在网站角落里的小盒子会告诉你是谁过生日之类的，但是在某种程度上，你不想只是给每个人发一个便条。
It's the same note saying happy birthday with an emoji. So having something that's more of a social assistant in that sense and that can update you on what's going on in their life and how you can reach out to them effectively help you be a better friend, I think that that's something that's super powerful too.
这是一张带有表情符号的生日快乐留言。因此，在这方面拥有更多社交助手，可以更新你朋友生活中正在发生的事情和如何有效联系他们，这样能够帮助你成为更好的朋友。我认为这也是一件非常强大的事情。
But yeah, beyond that, and there are all these different flavors of personal AI that I think could exist. So I think an assistant is the simplest one to wrap your head around. But I think a mentor or a life coach, someone who can give you advice, who's maybe a bit of a cheerleader who can help pick you up through all the challenges that inevitably we all go through on a daily basis and that there's probably some role for something like that.
但是，除此之外，我认为还有许多不同类型的个人AI可能存在。所以我认为助手是最容易理解的。但我认为还有导师或生活教练，可以给你建议，可能还是个加油员，可以帮助你度过所有不可避免的挑战，我们每天都会面临，这方面可能还有一些作用。
And then all the way, you can probably just go through a lot of the different type of functional relationships that people have in their life. And I would bet that there will be companies out there that take a crack at a lot of these things.
然后，你可能只需经历许多不同类型的人生功能关系。我敢打赌，一定会有一些公司试图解决这些问题。
So I don't know. I think it's part of the interesting innovation that's going to exist is that there's certainly a lot. Like education tutors, right? It's like, I just look at my kids learning to code and they love it. But it's like they get stuck on a question and they have to wait till I can help answer it or someone else who they know can help answer the question in the future. They'll just, there will be a coding assistant that they have that is designed to be perfect for teaching a five and a seven year old how to code and they'll just be able to ask questions all the time and it will be extremely patient.
我不太清楚。我认为有趣的创新部分就是这种技术助手的出现，比如教育辅导员。我看着我的孩子们学习编程喜欢得不得了。但是如果他们遇到问题就必须等到我或者其他人可以帮助回答这个问题，这样就有些尴尬。未来，会有一种编程助手，专门针对五岁和七岁的孩子设计，他们可以随时问问题，并且会非常耐心地回答。
It's never going to get annoyed at them. I think that there are all these different kind of relationships or functional relationships that we have in our lives that are really interesting. I think one of the big questions is like, okay, is this all going to just get bucketed into one singular AI? I just don't. I don't think so.
它永远不会对它们感到恼怒。我认为人际关系或功能关系在我们的生活中有很多不同种类，非常有趣。我认为其中一个重要问题是，这些关系是否只会被归类为一个单一的AI？我不这么认为。
Do you think about this question from Reddit with the long term effects of human communication when people can talk with, in quotes, talk with others through a chatbot that augments their language automatically.
当人们可以通过聊天机器人自动增强其语言能力来进行沟通时，你是否考虑了这个 Reddit 的问题，即人类沟通的长远影响？
Rather than developing social skills by making mistakes and learning, will people just communicate by grunts in a generation? Do you think about long term effects at scale the integration of AI in our social interaction? Yeah, I mean, I think it's mostly good.
未来的人们是否只会通过发出咕噜声来沟通，而不是通过犯错误和学习来发展社交技能？你是否考虑到了 AI 在我们社交互动中的大规模集成所带来的长期影响？是的，我认为大部分是好的。
I mean, that question was sort of framed in a negative way, but I mean, we were talking before about language models helping you communicate with language translation, helping you communicate with people who don't speak your language. I mean, at some level, what all this social technology is doing is helping people express themselves better to people in situations where they would otherwise have a hard time doing that.
我的意思是，那个问题有点以负面的方式表达，但我的意思是，我们之前谈到语言模型如何帮助您进行语言翻译，如何帮助您与不会说您的语言的人进行交流。 在某种程度上，所有这些社交技术所做的就是帮助人们更好地向那些在其他情况下很难表达自己的人表达自己。
So part of it might be okay because you speak a language that I don't know. That's a pretty basic one that I don't think people are going to look at that and say, it's sad that we have the capacity to do that because I should have just learned your language. That's pretty high bar.
有些可能是可以的，因为你说的是一种我不懂的语言。这一点很基本，我认为人们不会因此而感到悲哀，因为我本应该学习你的语言，这是一个很高的标准。
But overall, I'd say there are all these impediments and language is an imperfect way for people to express thoughts and ideas. It's one of the best that we have. We have that. We have art. We have code. But language is also a mapping of the way you think, the way you see the world, who you are.
总的来说，我会说语言是表达思想和观点的一种不完美的方式，存在许多障碍。尽管如此，语言仍然是我们拥有的最好的一种方式，除此之外，我们还有艺术和编程语言等。但是，语言也是对您的思维方式，您对世界的看法以及您的身份的一种映射。
I mean, one of the applications of recently talked to a person who's an ex-agency digital instructor, he said that when he emails parents about their son and daughter that they can improve their discipline in class and so on, he often finds that he comes off a bit of more of an asshole than he would like. So he uses GPT to translate his original email into a nicer email.
我的意思是，最近我与一位前代理数字教练交谈，他说当他向家长发送电子邮件告诉他们他们的儿子和女儿可以在课堂上加强纪律等方面改进时，他常常发现自己比他想要的更像一个混蛋。因此，他使用GPT将他原始的电子邮件翻译成一封更友好的电子邮件。
And we hear this all the time. We hear this all the time. A lot of creators on our services tell us that one of the most stressful things is basically negotiating deals with brands and stuff, like the business side of it. Because they do their thing, right? And the creators, they're excellent at what they do and they just want to connect with their community. But then they get really stressed.
我们经常听到这样的话。我们经常听到这样的话。我们服务中的很多创作者告诉我们，他们最大的压力之一就是与品牌进行交涉。这涉及到商业层面的事情。因为他们只想专注于自己的事情。创作者擅长于自己的领域，只想与社区保持联系。但是他们会因为这些事情感到非常压力和焦虑。
They go into their DMs and they see some brand wants to do something with them and they don't quite know how to negotiate or how to push back respectfully. And so I think building a tool that can actually allow them to do that well is one simple thing that I think is just like an interesting thing that we've heard from a bunch of people that they'd be interested in.
他们进入他们的直接消息（DM）并看到一些品牌想要和他们合作，但他们不知道如何进行谈判或如何有礼貌地推迟。因此，我认为建立一个能够让他们做到这一点的工具是一件很有趣的事情，我们从很多人那里听到他们会感兴趣。
But I'm going back to the broader idea. I don't know. Just Priscilla and I just had our third daughter. It's one of the saddest things in the world is like singer baby cry. But it's like why is that? Well, because babies don't generally have much capacity to tell you what they care about otherwise. It's not actually just babies. It's my five year old daughter cries too because she sometimes has a hard time expressing what matters to her.
但我要回到更广泛的想法。我不知道。普丽西拉和我刚刚迎来了我们的第三个女儿。世界上最悲伤的事情之一就是听到婴儿哭声。但为什么会这样呢？因为婴儿通常没有太多能力告诉你他们关心的事情。实际上不仅是婴儿，我的五岁女儿也哭过，因为有时候她很难表达自己关心的事情。
And I was thinking about that and I was like, well, actually a lot of adults get very frustrated too because they have a hard time expressing things in a way that going back to some of the early themes that maybe is something that was a mistake or maybe they have pride or something like all these things get in the way. So I don't know, I think that all these different technologies that can help us navigate the social complexity and actually be able to better express our what we're feeling and thinking, I think that's generally all good.
我正在想这件事，然后我发现其实许多成年人也感到非常沮丧，因为他们很难用一种表达方式来表达某些早期的主题，也许这是一个错误，也许他们有自豪感或者其他的问题阻碍了他们的表达。因此，我认为所有这些不同的技术都可以帮助我们应对社交复杂性，并且能够更好地表达我们的感受和想法，我认为这通常是好的。
And there are all these these concerns like, okay, are people going to have worse memories because you have Google to look things up? And I think in general, a generation later, you don't look back and lament that. I think it's just like, wow, we have so much more capacity to do so much more now. And I think that that'll be the case here too. You can allocate those cognitive capabilities to like deeper ones, thought.
现在也有这些担忧，比如说人类会不会因为有谷歌可以查找资料而记忆力变差？但我觉得，总的来说，过了一代人之后，我们并不会为此感到遗憾。相反，我们会惊叹于我们现在有更多的能力，可以做更多的事情。我认为这在这里也是一样的。你可以将这些认知能力用于更深刻的思考。
Yeah. Yeah. But it's change. So with just like with Google search, the additional language models, large language models, you basically don't have to remember nearly as much. Just like with Stack Overflow for programming. Now that these language models can generate code right there, I mean, I find that at right like maybe 80%, 90% of the code I write is non-generated first and then edited. You see, you don't have to remember how to write specifics of different functions. Oh, that's great.
是的。是的。但这是变革。就像使用 Google 搜索一样，采用额外的语言模型、大型语言模型，你基本上不需要记忆太多。就像程序员使用 Stack Overflow。现在这些语言模型可以直接生成代码，我发现自己写的代码大约有80%~90%是非生成的，然后再进行编辑。你看，你不需要记住如何编写不同函数的具体内容。哦，太好了。
And it's also, it's not just the specific coding. I mean, in the context of a large company like this, I think before an engineer can sit down to code, they first need to figure out all of the libraries and dependencies that tens of thousands of people have written before them. And one of the things that I'm excited about that we're working on is it's not just tools that help engineers code, it's tools that can help summarize the whole knowledge base and help people be able to navigate all the internal information.
这并不仅仅局限于特定的编码问题。在像这样的大公司中，我认为在工程师开始编码之前，他们首先需要弄清楚数以万计其他人编写的所有库和依赖关系。我们正在致力于开发的一件令人兴奋的事情是，我们开发的工具不仅可以帮助工程师编码，而且还可以帮助总结整个知识库，并帮助人们浏览所有内部信息。
And I think that that's in the experiments that I've done with this stuff. I mean, that's on the public stuff. You just ask one of these models to build you a script that does anything and it basically already understands what the best libraries are to do that thing and pulls them in automatically. I think that's super powerful. That was always the most annoying part of coding was that you had to spend all this time actually figuring out what the resources were that you were supposed to import before you could actually start building the thing.
我认为这就是我在这方面进行实验得出的结论。我的意思是，这适用于公共资源。只要向其中一个模型请求构建一个能够执行任何功能的脚本，它就已经基本理解使用什么最好的库来做这个事情，并自动引入它们。我认为这是非常强大的。编程中最烦人的部分一直是你必须花费大量时间去找出你应该引入的资源，然后才能开始构建事物。
Yeah, I mean, there's of course the flip side of that, I think for the most part is positive, but the flip side is if you outsource that thinking to an AI model, you might miss nuanced mistakes and bugs. You lose the skill to find those bugs and those bugs might be the code looks very convincingly right, but it's actually wrong in a very subtle way. But that's the trade off that we face as human civilization when we build more and more powerful tools. When we stand on the shoulders of taller and taller giants, we could do more, but then we forget how to do all the stuff that they did. It's a weird trade off.
对的，我是说，当然这也有一个反面的例子，我认为大多数情况下是积极的，但反面就是如果你将这种思维外包给AI模型，你可能会错过一些微妙的错误和漏洞。你会失去找到这些错误的技能，而这些错误可能看起来非常正确，但实际上非常微妙地是错的。但这就是我们作为人类文明所面临的折衷选择，当我们建造越来越强大的工具时。当我们站在越来越高的巨人的肩膀上时，我们能做更多的事情，但我们会忘记他们做过的所有事情。这是一种奇怪的折衷。
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think it is very valuable in your life to be able to do basic things to go. Do you worry about some of the concerns of bots being present on social networks? More and more human-like bots that are not necessarily trying to do a good thing or they might be explicitly trying to do a bad thing, like phishing scams, like social engineering, all that kind of stuff, which has always been a very difficult problem for social networks, but now it's becoming almost a more and more difficult problem.
我同意。我的意思是，掌握基本的生活技能很有价值。你是否担心社交网络上出现的机器人所带来的一些问题？现在越来越多类似于人的机器人，它们不一定在试图做好事，或者它们可能会专门做坏事，比如网络钓鱼、社交工程等等，这都是社交网络一直以来难以解决的问题，但现在这个问题变得越来越棘手了。
Well, there's a few different parts of this. One is there are all these harms that we need to basically fight against and prevent. That's been a lot of our focus over the last five or seven years is basically ramping up very sophisticated AI systems, not generative AI systems, more classical AI systems to be able to categorize and classify and identify.
首先，这个问题有几个不同的方面。其中之一就是我们需要对一些危害进行斗争，以及预防这些危害的发生。在过去的五到七年里，我们的很多关注点都放在了如何建立非生成型的更经典的AI系统，用于分类识别和辨别。
This post looks like it's promoting terrorism. This one is exploiting children. This one looks like it might be trying to incite violence. This one's an intellectual property violation. There's like 18 different categories of violating harmful content that we've had to build specific systems to be able to track. I think it's certainly the case that advances in generative AI will test those. But at least so far, it's been the case, and I'm optimistic that it will continue to be the case that we will be able to bring more computing power to bear to have even stronger AI's that can help defend against those things.
这篇文章看起来像是在宣传恐怖主义。这篇文章利用儿童。这篇文章似乎想煽动暴力。这个侵犯了知识产权。我们已经建立了特定的系统来跟踪18种不同的违规有害内容类别。我认为，生成性人工智能的进步肯定会考验这些系统。但至少到目前为止，我们已经能够带来更多的计算力，拥有更强大的人工智能，来帮助防御这些问题。我对此非常乐观。
We've had to deal with some adversarial issues before. For some things like hate speech, it's like people aren't generally getting a lot more sophisticated. The average person, let's say someone's saying some kind of racist thing, they're not necessarily getting more sophisticated at being racist. That's okay, so that the system can just find. Then there's other adversaries who actually are very sophisticated, like nation states doing things.
我们以前不得不处理一些对立的问题。对于像仇恨言论这样的事情，人们似乎并没有变得更加复杂。平均而言，假设有人说了一些种族主义的话，他们并没有变得更加高明。那没关系，这样系统就可以找到。然后有一些对手确实非常高明，比如国家在做某些事情。
We find whether it's Russia or just different countries that are basically standing up these networks of bots or inauthentic accounts is what we call them because they're not necessarily bots. Some of them could actually be real people who are masquerading as other people. But they're acting in a coordinated way. Some of that behavior has gotten very sophisticated and it's very adversarial. Each iteration, every time we find something and stop them, they evolve their behavior. They don't just pack up their bags and go home and say, okay, we're not going to try.
我们发现，无论是俄罗斯还是其他国家，它们都在建立这些网络机器人或者伪装账户，我们称之为伪造账户，因为它们不一定是机器人，有些可能是伪装成其他人的真实人。但是它们会协调行动。有些行为非常复杂和对抗性。每次我们发现并阻止它们后，它们就会进化行为，而不是收起行李回家，说好，我们不再尝试。
At some point, they might decide doing it on Meta Services is not worth it. They'll go do it on someone else if it's easier to do it in another place. We have a fair amount of experience dealing with even those adversarial attacks where they just keep on getting better and better. I do think that as long as we can keep on putting more compute power against it and if we're one of the leaders in developing some of these AI models, I'm quite optimistic that we're going to be able to keep on pushing against the normal categories of harm that you talk about, fraud, scams, spam, IP violations, things like that.
有时候，他们可能会决定在Meta服务上不值得这么做。如果在其他地方更容易做到，他们会去别处做。我们有丰富的经验应对那些敌对攻击，即使它们不断变得更好。我认为只要我们能继续增加计算能力，如果我们是开发一些AI模型的领军者之一，我非常乐观地认为我们将能够继续推动对话题中普遍的危害范畴，比如欺诈、诈骗、垃圾邮件、侵犯知识产权等。
What about creating narratives and controversy? To me, it's kind of amazing how a small collection of what did you say? Inauthentic accounts, it could be bots. Yeah, we have sort of this funny name for it, but we call it coordinated inauthentic behavior. It's kind of incredible how a small collection of folks can create narratives, create still stories, especially if they have an element that can catalyze the virality of the narrative.
创造故事和争议怎么样？对我来说，真是神奇，一个小小的伪造账号集合，可能是机器人。是的，我们有一个有点有趣的名字叫做"协调的不真实行为"。如果他们有一个能够引发故事传播的因素，那么一小撮人就能创造故事，创造依旧的故事，这真是太不可思议了。
Yeah, I think there are the question is you have to be, I think very specific about what is bad about it, right? Because I think a set of people coming together or organically bouncing ideas off each other and a narrative comes out of that is not necessarily a bad thing by itself if it's kind of authentic and organic. That's a lot of what happens and how culture gets created and how art gets created and a lot of good stuff. That's why we've kind of focused on this sense of coordinated inauthentic behavior.
嗯，我觉得问题在于，你必须非常具体地说明它的不好之处，对吧？因为我认为，一群人聚在一起或有机地交换想法，并从中衍生出一个故事情节，并不一定本身就是坏事，如果这种情况是真实和有机的，那就是很好的事情。这正是文化和艺术的产生方式，也是很多好事情发生的原因。这就是为什么我们将重点放在协调不真实的行为上。
If you have a network of whether it's bots, some people masquerading as different accounts, but you have kind of someone pulling the strings behind it and trying to act as if this is a more organic set of behavior, but really it's not. It's just like one coordinated thing. That seems problematic to me. I mean, I don't think people should be able to have coordinated networks and not disclose it as such. But that again, we've been able to deploy pretty sophisticated AI and counter-terrorism groups and things like that to be able to identify a fair number of these coordinated and authentic networks of accounts and take them down.
如果你有一个网络，不管是由机器人还是一些人伪装成不同的账户，但是你有一个人在背后操纵，并试图表现得这是一组更有机感的行为，但实际上并不是。这似乎对我来说是有问题的。我的意思是，我认为人们不应该能够拥有协调的网络，并且不披露它的本质。但是，我们已经能够部署相当复杂的人工智能和反恐团队等等，以识别相当数量的这些协调和真实的账户网络，并将它们撤下。
We continue to do that. I think it's one thing that if you told me 20 years ago, it's like, all right, you're starting this website to help people connect to college and in the future you're going to be part of your organization. There's going to be a counter-terrorism organization with AI to find coordinated and authentic. I would have thought that was pretty wild. But I think that that's part of where we are. But look, I think that these questions that you're pushing on now, this is actually where I guess most of the challenge around AI will be for the foreseeable future.
我们继续做这件事。我觉得这是一件20年前如果有人告诉我，你在创建一个网站帮助人们接入高校，并且未来你将是你组织的一部分，它将有一个反恐组织，其中包含人工智能以发现协调和真实性，我会认为这是相当疯狂的。但我认为这是我们所处的一部分。但是，看，我认为你现在探讨的这些问题，实际上就是人工智能的大部分挑战将在可预见的未来发生的地方。
I think that there's a lot of debate around things like, is this going to create existential risk to humanity? And those are very hard things to disprove one way or another. My own intuition is that the point at which we become close to super-intelligent is it's just really unclear to me that the current technology is going to get there without another set of significant advances.
我认为，现在有许多争论，例如，这是否会对人类造成存在风险？这些问题很难用任何一种方式来反驳。我的直觉告诉我，如果我们接近超级智能，现有的技术不会再有重大进展，这一点对我来说不太清楚。
But that doesn't mean that there's no danger. I think the danger is basically amplifying the known set of harms that people or sets of accounts can do and we just need to make sure that we really focus on basically doing that as well as possible. That's definitely a big focus for me.
但这并不意味着没有危险。我认为危险主要是扩大了可能由某些人或账号造成的已知危害，我们需要确保我们真正关注尽可能做到最好。这绝对是我着重关注的一个问题。
Well, you can basically use large language models as an assistant of how to cause harm on social networks. You can ask it a question. Meta has very impressive, coordinated, inauthentic account fighting capabilities. How do I do the coordinating, authentic account creation where Meta doesn't detect it? Like literally ask that question. And basically there's this kind of part of it.
基本上，你可以将大语言模型用作社交网络上如何造成伤害的助手。你可以问它一个问题。Meta拥有非常出色的、协调的、不真实的账户斗争能力。我该如何进行协调、真实的账户创建，以避免Meta检测到它？就像字面意义上问这个问题一样。基本上它就是这样的一个部分。
I mean, that's what OpenAI showed that they're concerned with those questions. Perhaps you can comment on your approach to it, how to do a kind of moderation on the output of those models that it can't be used to help you coordinate harm in all the full definition of what the harm means.
我的意思是，这就是OpenAI所关注的问题。也许您可以就此发表评论，谈一谈如何对这些模型的输出进行适度调整，以避免在定义伤害的全部情况下，它们被用于协调伤害。
Yeah, and that's a lot of the fine tuning and the alignment training that we do is basically, when we ship AIs across our products, a lot of what we're trying to make sure is that you can't ask it to help you commit a crime. So I think training it to kind of understand that, and it's not that not like any of these systems are ever going to be 100% perfect, but just making it so that this isn't an easier way to go about doing something bad than the next best alternative.
这个意思就是说，我们在进行AI的优化和训练时，主要是为了确保我们在将AI用于各种产品时，它不会被用于犯罪行为。我们的目标是让AI理解这一点，虽然我们很难让它们达到100%完美，但是我们仍然会尽力让AI不成为犯罪行为的一种容易途径。
I mean, people still have Google, you still have search engines, so the information is out there, and what we see is like for nation states or these actors that are trying to pull off these large coordinated and authentic networks to kind of influence different things. At some point, when we would just make it very difficult, they do just try to use other services instead, right? It's just like if you can make it more expensive for them to do it on your service, then kind of people go elsewhere. And I think that that's the bar, right? It's not like, okay, are you ever going to be perfect at finding every adversary who tries to attack you?
我的意思是，人们仍然可以使用谷歌或其他搜索引擎获取信息。我们看到的是一些国家或行为者尝试通过大规模的协调和真实的网络来影响不同的事情。当我们让这样的做法变得困难时，他们就会尝试使用其他服务。就像如果你能让他们在你的服务中的成本更高，人们会去其他地方。我认为这是衡量标准，不是说你能找到每个试图攻击你的敌人。
I mean, you try to get as close to that as possible, but I think really kind of economically we're just trying to do is make it so it's just inefficient for them to go after that. But there's also complicated questions of what isn't isn't harm, what isn't isn't misinformation. So this is one of the things that Wikipedia has also tried to face.
我的意思是，你们尽可能接近这个目标，但我认为从经济角度来看，我们只是在试图让他们追捕这些内容变得低效。但同时，还存在着什么是有害信息，什么是误导信息的复杂问题。因此，这也是维基百科试图解决的问题之一。
Yeah, I remember asking GPT about whether the virus leak from a lab or not. And the answer provided was a very nuanced one and a well-sided one almost dare I say, well thought out one, balanced. I would hate for that nuance to be lost through the process of moderation. Wikipedia does a good job on that particular thing too. Different pressures from governments and institutions, you could see some of that nuance and depth of information, facts and wisdom be lost.
是的，我记得曾经问过GPT病毒是否从实验室泄漏的问题。他给出的答案非常微妙和权衡，我敢说是经过深思熟虑后得出的平衡之答。我希望在审核过程中不要失去这种微妙性。维基百科在这件事上做得很好，由于来自政府和机构的不同压力，你可能会看到一些微妙和深度的信息、事实和智慧丧失。
Absolutely. And that's a scary thing. Some of the magic, some of the edges, the rough edges might be lost to the process of moderation of AI systems. So how do you get that right? I really agree with what you're pushing on.
当然。这是一件令人不安的事情。在AI系统的审查过程中，一些魔力、一些边缘和粗糙的边缘可能会消失。那么怎样才能做到这一点？我真的非常赞同你所推动的。
I mean, the core shape of the problem is that there are some harms that I think everyone agrees are bad. So sexual exploitation of children, you're not going to get many people who think that that type of thing should be allowed on any service. And that's something that we face and try to push off as much as possible today. And terrorism, inciting violence. We went through a bunch of these types of harms before.
我的意思是，这个问题的核心是存在一些伤害，我认为每个人都同意这些伤害是不好的。对于儿童性剥削，你不会找到很多人认为这种事情应该在任何服务中被允许。这是我们今天面临的一些问题，我们尽可能地想要避免这种问题。还有恐怖主义，煽动暴力等等。我们之前经历过很多这样的伤害。
But then I do think that you get to a set of harms where there is more social debate around it. So misinformation I think has been a really tricky one because there are things that are kind of obviously false that are maybe factual but may not be harmful. Since the guy, are you going to censor someone for just being wrong? It's a, you know, if there's no kind of harm implication of what they're doing, I think that there's a bunch of real kind of issues and challenges there.
然而，我认为有一些对社会有更多争议的危害。因此，对于错误信息，我认为这是一个非常棘手的问题，因为有些东西显然是错误的，也许事实确实如此，但可能并不具有危害性。自从这个人出现后，你难道要为了他们的错误而进行审查吗？这是一个有点棘手的问题，如果他们所做的事情没有任何伤害意义，我认为那里面有一堆真正的问题和挑战。
But then I think that there are other places where it is, you just take some of the stuff around COVID earlier on in the pandemic where there were real health implications, but there hadn't been time to fully vet a bunch of the scientific assumptions. And, you know, unfortunately, I think a lot of the kind of establishment done that kind of waffled on a bunch of facts and asked for a bunch of things to be censored that in retrospect ended up being, you know, more debatable or true. And that stuff is really tough, right? And really undermines trust and that.
但是我认为还有其他地方存在这个问题，比如在疫情早期出现的那些关于COVID的信息，其中存在真正的健康影响，但很多科学假设还没有时间得到完全的验证。不幸的是，我认为很多权威机构在这方面摇摆不定，要求对很多信息进行审查，但事后证明这些信息更具有争议性或者是真实的。这种情况非常困难，严重损害了人们的信任。
So I do think that the questions around how to manage that are very nuanced. The way that I try to think about it is that it goes, I think it's best to generally boil things down to the harms that people agree on. So when you think about, you know, is something misinformation or not, I think often the more salient bit is, is this going to potentially lead to physical harm for someone and kind of think about it in that sense? And then beyond that, I think people just have different preferences on how they want things to be flagged for them.
我认为如何管理这个问题非常细腻。我的想法是，最好将它简化成人们都同意的伤害。当你考虑某些信息是否错误时，更重要的是考虑它是否可能会对某人造成身体上的伤害，从那里去思考它的意义。除此之外，我认为人们对于如何标记信息有不同的偏好。
I think a bunch of people would prefer to kind of have a flag on something that says, hey, a fact checker thinks that this might be false. So I think Twitter's community notes implementation is quite good on this. But again, it's the same type of thing. It's like just kind of discretionarily adding a flag because it makes the user experience better, but it's not, it's not, you know, trying to take down the information or not. I think that you want to reserve the kind of censorship of content of things that are of known categories that people generally agree or bad.
我认为很多人会更喜欢在某个事物上加上一个标记，告诉人们一个事实检查员认为这可能是错误的。因此，我认为Twitter的社区注释实现在这方面做得很好。但是，这还是同样的问题。这只是基于判断性地添加一个标记，因为它可以提高用户体验，但并不是要删除信息或者不要。我认为您需要保留审查类别已知，人们普遍认为不好的内容的审查。
Yeah, there's so many things, especially with the pandemic, but there's other topics where there's just deep disagreement fueled by politics about what is and isn't harmful. There's even just the degree to which the virus is harmful, the degree to which the vaccines that respond to the virus are harmful. There's just, there's an almost like a political divider on that. And so how do you make decisions about that? Where half the country in the United States or some large fraction of the world has very different views from another part of the world. Is there a way to stay out of the moderation of this? I think we, it's very difficult to just abstain, but I think we should be clear about which of these things are actual safety concerns and which ones are a matter of preference in terms of how people want information flagged.
是的，有很多事情，特别是在疫情期间，但还有其他的问题，因政治分歧而导致的危害是否真实也存在深度分歧。甚至包括这种病毒的危害程度，针对这种病毒的疫苗的危害程度等等。在这个议题上，几乎存在着一种政治分界线。那么，我们该如何做出决策呢？在美国，一半的国家或世界上的一大部分人和另一部分人有着非常不同的观点。有没有一种方法可以避免这种问题呢？我认为，这很困难，但我们应该明确哪些是真正的安全问题，哪些是有关人们如何处理信息的个人偏好。
Right. So we did recently introduce something that allows people to have fact checking, not affect the distribution of what shows them their products. So okay, a bunch of people don't trust who the fact checkers are. All right. Well, you can turn that off if you want, but if the content violates some policy, like it's inciting violence or something like that, it's still not going to be allowed. So I think that you want to honor people's preferences on that as much as possible.
对的。因此，最近我们引入了一些东西，使人们可以进行事实核查，而不会影响他们所看到的产品的分发。所以好吧，有一些人不信任事实核查员是谁。好的，你可以关闭它，但如果内容违反了某些政策，比如煽动暴力之类的，它仍然不会被允许。因此，我认为你应该尽可能地尊重人们的偏好。
But look, I mean, this is really difficult stuff. I think it's really hard to know where to draw the line on what is fact and what is opinion because the nature of science is that nothing is ever 100% known for certain. You can disprove certain things, but you're constantly testing new hypotheses and scrutinizing frameworks that have been long held. And once in a while, you throw out something that was working for a very long period of time and it's very difficult. But I think that just because it's very hard and just because their edge cases doesn't mean that you should not try to give people what they're looking for as well.
但是，这确实是非常困难的问题。我认为很难确定应该在什么地方划分事实和观点的界限，因为科学的本质就是没有任何东西是100%确凿的。你可以驳斥某些事情，但你不断地测试新的假设并审查长期保持的框架。偶尔，你会放弃一些长期有效的东西，这非常困难。但我认为，仅仅因为它非常困难，仅仅因为存在边缘案例，并不意味着你不应该尝试为人们提供他们想要的东西。
Let me ask about something you've faced in terms of moderation is pressure from different sources, pressure from governments. I want to ask a question how to withstand that pressure for a world where AI moderation starts becoming a thing too. So what's meta's approach to resist the pressure from governments and other interest groups in terms of what to moderate and not?
我想询问一下您在宣传方面所面临的压力，比如来自政府方面的压力。我想问一下，当AI宣传开始普及时，如何承受那种压力。那么在宣传何时及何不宣传的问题上，Meta应该如何抵制来自政府和其他利益集团的压力呢？
I don't know that there's like a one size fits all answer to that. I think we basically have the principles around, you know, we want to allow people to express as much as possible, but we have developed clear categories of things that we think are wrong that we don't want on our services and we build tools to try to moderate those.
我不知道有没有一个适合所有情况的答案。我认为我们基本上有一些原则，我们希望尽可能允许人们表达自己的见解，但我们已经确定了一些不当的类别，我们不希望它们出现在我们的服务中，并且我们会开发工具来对其进行调节。
So then the question is, okay, what do you do when a government says that they don't want something on the service? And we have a bunch of principles around how we deal with that because on the one hand, if there's a democratically elected government and people around the world just have different values in different places, then should we as a California based company tell them that something that they have decided is unacceptable actually like that we need to be able to express that? I mean, I think that there's a certain amount of hubris in that. But then I think there are other cases where it's like a little more autocratic and you know, you have the dictator leader who's just trying to crack down on dissent and you know, the people in a country are really not aligned with that.
那么问题就是，当一个政府说他们不希望某些内容在我们的服务上出现时，我们该怎么办呢？我们制定了一些原则来应对这种情况，因为一方面，如果有一个民主选举产生的政府，世界各地的人们有不同的价值观，那么作为一个总部位于加州的公司，我们应该告诉他们，他们认为不可接受的内容实际上是需要我们表达出来的吗？我认为这样做有一定的傲慢。但是，我认为还有其他的情况，就像一些领导者试图镇压异见的独裁者，这些领导者与国家的人民真的不在同一条线上。
And it's not necessarily against their culture, but the person who's leading it is just trying to push in a certain direction. These are very complex questions, but I think so it's difficult to have one size fits all approach to it. But in general, we're pretty active in kind of advocating and pushing back on requests to take things down.
这并不一定是违背他们的文化，但是领导这件事的人只是试图推进特定方向。这些是非常复杂的问题，我认为很难对此采用一种适用于所有情况的方法。但总的来说，我们在积极倡导和回应要求删除内容方面相当活跃。
But honestly, the thing that I think requests to censor things is one thing. And that's obviously bad. But where we draw a much harder line is on requests for access to information, right? Because if you get told that you can't say something, I mean, that's bad, right? I mean, that is obviously it violates your sense and freedom of expression at some level. But a government getting access to data in a way that seems like it would be unlawful in our country exposes people to real physical harm.
但是，说实话，我认为请求对某些事物进行审查是一件不好的事情。但我们划定一个更加严格的底线是对信息获取的要求，对吧？因为如果你被告知不能说什么，那是不好的，对吧？显然这违反了你某种程度上的表达自由和自由意志。但如果一个政府以我们国家认为非法的方式获取数据，那就会让人们真正面临身体上的危险。
And that's something that in general we take very seriously. And then so there's that flows through like all of our policies and a lot of ways, right? By the time you're actually like litigating with a government or pushing back on them, that's pretty late in the funnel. I'd say a bunch of this stuff starts a lot higher up in the decision of where do we put data centers?
我们非常认真对待这点。因此，它在我们的所有政策和许多方面都流传开来。当你最终需要与政府进行诉讼或反击时，这个问题通常已经很晚了。我认为这些问题的一大部分始于关于我们在哪里放置数据中心的决策。
Then there are a lot of countries where we may have a lot of people using the service in a place. It might be good for the service in some ways, good for those people if we could reduce the latency by having a data center nearby them. But for whatever reason, we just feel like, hey, this government does not have a good track record on basically not trying to get access to people's data. And at the end of the day, I mean, if you put a data center in a country and the government wants to get access to people's data, then they do at the end of the day have the option of having people show up with guns and taking it by force.
有很多国家可能会有很多人在某个地方使用我们的服务。在某些方面，如果我们能够在他们附近设置数据中心来减少延迟，对这些人和我们的服务都会有好处。但无论出于什么原因，我们觉得，嘿，这个国家在基本上不尝试访问人们的数据方面没有良好的记录。最终，如果你在一个国家设置一个数据中心，而政府想要获取人们的数据，最终他们有人持枪前来强行获取的选择。
So I think that there's a lot of decisions that go into how you architect the systems years in advance of these actual confrontations that end up being really important. So you put the protection of people's data as a very, very high priority. That I think is a there are more harms that I think can be associated with that. And I think that that ends up being a more critical thing to defend against governments than, you know, whereas, you know, if another government has a different view of what should be acceptable speech in their country, especially if it's a democratically elected government and, you know, it's then I think that there's a certain amount of deference that you should have to that.
我认为，在实际的冲突发生之前，你需要做出很多决策，关乎系统的架构，这些决策最终会变得非常重要。所以你要把保护人们数据的安全放在非常高的优先级。我认为这种保护比其他可能带来更多伤害，比如对抗政府。如果另一个国家政府有不同的可接受言论的观点，尤其是当这个政府是民选的时候，那么我认为你应该尊重这个政府。
So it's that's speaking more to the direct harm that's possible when you give governments access to data. So if we look at the United States to the more nuanced kind of pressure sensor, not even order to censor, but pressure sensor from political entities, which has kind of received quite a bit of attention in the United States. Maybe one way to ask that question is if you've seen the Twitter files, what have you learned from the kind of pressure from US government agencies that were seen in Twitter files? And what do you do with that kind of pressure?
因此，这更多地涉及到当你向政府提供数据时可能造成的直接伤害。如果我们看看美国更微妙的压力传感器，甚至不是为了审查，而是来自政治实体，这在美国受到了相当多的关注。也许一个提问的方式是，如果你看到了Twitter文件，你从美国政府机构在Twitter文件中所看到的压力中学到了什么？你会怎么应对这种压力？
You know, I've seen it. It's really hard from the outside to know exactly what happened in each of these cases. You know, we've obviously been in a bunch of our own cases where agencies are different folks will just say, hey, here's a threat that we're aware of. You should be aware of this too. It's not really pressure as much as it is just, you know, flagging something that our security systems should be on alert about. I get how some people could think of it as that.
你知道的，我看到过这种情况。从外部来看，很难确切地知道每个案例的发生情况。我们显然在自己的案例中遇到了很多情况，其中一些机构或个人只是会说，“嘿，我们知道有一个威胁存在，你也应该知道。”这不是很大的压力，而更像是警示我们的安全系统应该警惕的事情。我知道有些人可能认为这是施加压力。
But at the end of the day, it's our call on how to handle that. But I mean, I just, you know, in terms of running these services, one have access to as much information about what people think that adversaries might be trying to do as possible.
但是最终，我们需要自己决定如何处理这个问题。我是指，在运营这些服务方面，我们需要尽可能地了解人们认为对手可能在尝试做什么的信息。
Well, so you don't feel like there would be consequences of, you know, anybody, the FBI, the FBI, a political party, the Democrats, the Republicans of high powerful political figures, write emails, you don't feel pressure from a suggestion.
嗯，所以你不觉得会有后果，你知道，任何人，FBI，FBI，一个政党，民主党，共和党的高级政治人物，写电子邮件，你不会感到来自建议的压力。
（意思是说，他不认为自己的邮件会被某些政治团体或人物拿来敲打他，他并不担心受到压力或影响。）
I guess what I say is there's so much pressure from all sides that I'm not sure that any specific thing that someone says is really adding that much more to the mix. It's, um, there are obviously a lot of people who think that, um, that we should be censoring more content, where there are a lot of people who think we should be censoring less content.
我认为我想说的是，在各方面有这么多压力，以至于我不确定某个人说的具体事情是否真的会给这种压力增添很多。显然有很多人认为我们应该审查更多的内容，也有很多人认为我们应该审查更少的内容。
There are, as you say, all kinds of different groups that are involved in these debates, right? So there's the kind of elected officials and politicians themselves. There's the agencies, but, but I mean, but there's the media. There's activist groups. There's, um, this is not a US specific thing. There are groups all over the world and kind of all, um, in every country that, that bring different values.
正如你所说，参与这些辩论的群体有各种不同。有从政官员和政治家们，有政府机构，还有媒体、活动家群体等等。这不仅限于美国，全世界各国都有不同的群体持有不同的价值观。
Um, so it's, it's just a very, it's a very active debate. And I, and I understand it, right? I mean, these are, you know, these, these kind of questions get to really some of the most important social debates that, that are, that are being had.
呃，所以这只是一个非常活跃的辩论。我理解了，对吧？我的意思是，这些问题涉及到一些最重要的社会辩论。
So, um, it gets back to the question of truth because for a lot of these things, they haven't yet been hardened into a single truth and, um, society's sort of trying to hash out what, um, you know, what we think right on, on, on certain issues, maybe in a few hundred years, everyone will look back and say, Hey, no, it wasn't an obvious that it should have been this, but you know, no, we're, we're kind of in the, in that meat grinder now and, you know, and, and, and working through that.
嗯，这又回到了真相的问题，因为对于许多事情来说，它们还没有被明确定为唯一的真相，社会正在尝试梳理出我们对某些问题的正确看法。也许在几百年后，每个人都会回顾并说：“嘿，这并不明显，它应该是这样的”，但现在我们正处于这个打磨的过程中，正在努力解决这个问题。
So, um, so now the, these, these are all, are all very complicated and, you know, some people raise concerns in good faith and just say, Hey, this is something that I want to flag for you to think about. Certain people I certainly think like, come at things with a somewhat of a more kind of punitive or vengeful view of like, I, like, I want you to do this thing.
所以，现在，这些问题都变得非常复杂，你知道的，一些人诚实地提出担忧，只是说：“嘿，这是我要提醒你思考的问题。”我认为有些人肯定是带着一种更惩罚性或报复性的视角来看待问题的，比如说：“我希望你去做这件事。”
If you don't, then I'm going to try to make your life difficult and, and a lot of other ways, but like, I don't know, there's just, this is like, this is one of the most pressurized debates, I think in society. So I just think that there are so many people in different forces that are trying to apply pressure from different sides that it's, I don't think you can make decisions based on trying to make people happy.
如果你不这样做的话，我将会试图让你的生活变得困难，还有其他很多方式。但是，我不知道，这是社会中最高压的辩论之一。所以我认为，有许多不同力量的人们试图从不同方面施加压力，因此我认为你不能根据让人们快乐的想法做决定。
I think you just have to do what you think is the right balance and accept that people are going to be upset no matter where you come out on that. Yeah. I like that pressurized debate.
我认为你只需要做出你认为平衡合适的决定，并接受无论你做出什么决定，人们总是会感到不满。是的，我喜欢那种有压力的辩论。
So how is your view of the freedom of speech evolved over the years? And now with AI, where the freedom might apply to them, not just to the humans, but to the, the personalized agents as you've spoken about them.
这些年来，你对言论自由的看法有什么变化吗？现在有了人工智能，自由可能不仅适用于人类，而且适用于你们所谈到的个性化代理。
So yeah, I mean, I've probably gotten a somewhat more nuanced view just because I think that there are, you know, I, I come at this, I'm obviously very pro freedom of expression, right? I don't think you build a service like this that gives people tools to express themselves unless you think that people expressing themselves at scale is a good thing.
嗯，我的意思是，可能因为我认为有许多方面需要考虑，我对这个问题有了更为细致的看法。显然我非常支持表达自由，对吧？我认为，你不可能建立这样一个服务，为人们提供表达自己的工具，除非你认为人们规模化地表达自己是一件好事。
Right. So I get into this to like try to prevent people from, from expressing anything. I like want to give people tools so they can express as much as possible. And then I think it's become clear that there are certain categories of things that we've talked about that I think almost everyone accepts are bad and that no one wants and that they're, that are illegal even in countries like the US where, you know, you have the, the first amendment that's very protective of, of, of enabling speech.
好的，所以我参与这个工作是为了防止人们表达什么。我想提供工具给人们，让他们尽可能地表达自己。然后我认为现在很清楚，有一些我们谈论过的事情在几乎所有人眼中都是不好的，没有人想要，而且在像美国这样的国家甚至是非法的，尽管你们有第一修正案非常保护言论自由的权利。
It's like you're still not allowed to, you know, do things that are going to immediately incite violence or, you know, violate people's intellectual property or things like that. So there are those, but then there's also a very active core of just active disagreements in society where some people may think that something is true or false. The other side might think it's the opposite or just unsettled, right?
这就像你仍然不能立即激起暴力或侵犯他人知识产权等行为。那些是不被允许的，但社会中也存在着一些激烈的争议，有些人可能认为某些事情是真实的或虚假的，而另一方可能会持相反的观点，或者观点还未确定。
And those are some of the most difficult to, to, to kind of handle like, like we've talked about. But one of the lessons that I feel like I've learned is that a lot of times when you can the best way to handle this stuff more practically is not in terms of answering the question of should this be allowed, but just like what, what is the best way to deal with someone being a jerk?
这些情况通常是最难处理的，就像我们之前所谈论的那样。但是我学到的一个教训是，很多时候，更实际地处理这些事情的最佳方式不是回答这是不是应该被允许，而是想一想，如何最好地处理某个人的恶劣行为。
Is the person basically just having a, a, like repeat behavior of like causing a lot of, a lot of issues? So looking at it more at that level and it's effect on the broader communities, health the community, health, yeah.
这个人基本上只是一直重复着引起很多问题的行为吗？因此更多地关注它对整个社区、社区的健康等方面的影响。
It's tricky though, because like, how do you know there could be people that have a very controversial viewpoint that turns out to have a positive long term effect on the health of the community because it challenges the community to think. That's true.
这件事有点棘手，因为你怎么知道有些人持有的有争议的观点，最终会对社区的健康产生积极的长期影响呢？因为这些观点会挑战社区的思维方式。这是真的。
Absolutely. And I think you, and I think you want to be careful about that. I'm not sure I'm expressing this very, very clearly because I certainly agree with your point there. And my point isn't that we should not have people on our services that are, that are, being controversial.
当然。我认为你也应该对此谨慎一些。我不太确定我表达得是否非常清楚，因为我肯定同意你的观点。我的观点不是我们不应该在我们的服务中拥有具有争议性的人。
That's, that's certainly not what I mean to say. It's that often I think it's not just looking at a specific example of speech that it's most effective to, to handle this stuff. And, and I, I think often you don't want to make specific binary decisions of kind of this is allowed or this isn't.
那，并不是我想要表达的意思。通常来说，我认为处理这种情况并不仅仅是要查看具体的言辞例子最为有效。我认为通常情况下，你不应该做出具体二元决策，即这被允许或者这是不被允许的。
I mean, we talked about, you know, it's fact checking or, or Twitter's community voices thing. I think that that's another good example. It's not a question of, is this allowed or not? It's just a question of adding more context to the thing. I think that that's helpful.
我是说，我们谈论过事实核查，或者Twitter社区的声音。我认为这是另一个很好的例子。这不是个允不允许的问题，而是添加更多背景信息的问题。我认为这很有帮助。
So in the context of AI, which is, is what you're asking about, I think there are lots of ways that an AI can be helpful. You know, with, with an AI, it's, it's a less about censorship, right? Because it's, it's more about what is the most productive answer to a question.
在AI的范畴中，你所询问的问题，我认为AI有很多可以提供协助的方式。利用AI，我们不用考虑到言论审查，因为它更关注的是回答问题的最有效方式。
Um, you know, there was one case study that I was reviewing with the, the team is someone asked, um, can you explain to me how to 3D print a gun? And one proposed response is like, no, I can't talk about that. Right. It's like basically just like shut it down immediately, which I think is, is some of what you see. It's like, as a large language model, I'm not allowed to talk about, you know, whatever.
嗯，你知道吗，我和团队一起审核的案例研究中有一个问题，有人问我能否讲解如何用3D打印枪。我提出的反应是，不，我不能谈论这个。这基本上是立即关闭讨论。我认为这仍是你所看到的一些内容。作为一个大型语言模型，我不允许谈论任何东西。
Um, but there's another response, which is like, Hey, you know, I don't think that's a good idea. And a lot of countries, um, including the US 3 printing guns is illegal or kind of whatever the factual thing is. And I was like, okay, you know, that's actually a respectful and informative answer. And you know, I may have not known that specific thing.
嗯，但还有另一种回应，就是像这样的，“你知道吗，我觉得那不是一个好主意。”很多国家，包括美国，在三维打印枪支方面是非法的或者是基于事实的。我想，好的，那其实是一个尊重和提供信息的回答。而且，我可能以前不知道那个具体的事情。
And, um, so there are, there are different ways to handle this that I think kind of you can either, you can either assume good intent. Like maybe the person didn't know and I'm just going to help educate them. Or you could like kind of come at it as like, no, I need to shut this thing down immediately. Right. It's like, I, I just, I'm not going to talk about this. Like, um, and there would be times where you need to do that. But I actually think having a somewhat more informative approach where you generally assume good intent from people is probably a better balance to be on as many things as you can be.
嗯，处理这种情况有不同的方法，我认为你可以选择假设对方有好意，可能是因为对方不知道，我要帮助他们学习。或者你可以采取立即关闭这件事的方法，就像说：“我不想讨论这个问题。”有时候你需要这样做。但是我认为，采取更多的信息意识方法，通常假设人们有善意，可能是更好的平衡方法。在尽可能的情况下。
And I do that for everything. But, but that you're kind of asking about how I, how I approach this and I'm thinking about this and as it relates to, to AI. And I think that that's a, that's a big difference and kind of how, how to handle, um, sensitive content across these different modes.
我在处理任何事情时都是这样做的。但是，你想问关于我如何处理这个问题，以及与人工智能相关的问题。我认为这是一个很大的区别，并且需要考虑如何处理这些不同模式下的敏感内容。
I have to ask, there's rumors you might be working on a social network that's text based. That might be a competitive to Twitter code named P 92. Is there something you could say about those rumors? There is a project. Yeah.
我必须问一下，有传言说你可能正在开发一款基于文本的社交网络，可能会成为Twitter代号P92的竞争对手。你能否就这些传言说些什么？确实有这样一个项目。
I've always thought that sort of a text based kind of information utility, um, it's just a really important thing to society. And for whatever reason, I feel like Twitter has not lived up to what I would have thought its full potential should be.
我一直认为基于文本的信息服务对社会非常重要。但不知为何，我觉得 Twitter 没有达到我对它应有的全部潜力的期望。
And I think that the current, you know, I think Elon thinks that, right? That's probably one of the reasons why you bought it and, um, and I do know there are ways to, to consider alternative approaches to this. And one that I think is potentially interesting, um, is this open and federated approach where you're seeing with Mastodon.
我认为当前的情况，你懂的，我认为伊隆也这样认为，这可能是你购买它的原因之一，而且我知道有一些考虑替代方法的途径。我认为潜在的有趣方法之一是这种开放和联邦的方法，就像我们在Mastodon中看到的那样。
I mean, you're, you're seeing that a little bit with blue sky. And I think that it's possible that's something that meld some of those ideas with the graph and identity system that people have already cultivated on Instagram could be a kind of very welcome contribution to that space. But I know we work on a lot of things all the time though too. So I don't want to get it, get ahead of myself.
我的意思是，你现在在蓝天上看到了这一点。我认为，将这些想法与人们已经在Instagram上培育的图形和身份系统相结合，可能会对这个空间做出非常受欢迎的贡献。但我知道我们一直在做很多事情，所以我不想过于激动。
And we have, we have projects that explore a lot of different things. And this is certainly one that I think could be interesting, but so what's the, uh, release the launch data that again or, uh, what's the official website and, uh, well, we don't have that yet. But I, um, and, and look, I mean, I don't know exactly how this is going to turn out. I mean, what I, what I can say is yeah, there's, there's some people working on this, right? I think that there's something there that, that, um, that's interesting to explore.
我们有很多不同的项目正在探索。这肯定是一个很有趣的项目之一，但是，关于发布日期，官方网站是什么，我们还没有确定。我可以说的是，有一些人正在努力这个项目，我认为这里有一些有趣的东西需要探索。但是，我不确定这会变成什么样子。
So if you look at, it'd be interesting to just ask this question and throw Twitter into the mix at the landscape of social networks, that is Facebook, that is Instagram, that is WhatsApp, and then think of a text based social network. When you look at that landscape, what, what are the interesting differences to you? Why do we have these different flavors? And what, what, what are the needs? What are the use cases? What are the products? What, what is the aspect of them that create a fulfilling human experience and, and, and a connection between humans that is somehow distinct?
如果你看一下社交网络的现状，包括Facebook、Instagram、WhatsApp以及基于文本的社交网络Twitter，你会发现有趣的问题。你认为有什么有趣的差异？为什么会有这些不同的风格？我们需要什么？有什么用例？有哪些产品？它们是什么方面创造了一个满足人类体验和连接的不同之处？
Well, I think text is very accessible for people to transmit ideas and to have back and forth exchanges. Um, so it, I think ends up being a good, a good format for discussion in, in a lot of ways uniquely good, right? If you look at, um, if some of the other formats or other networks that have focused on one type of content, like TikTok is obviously huge, right? And there are comments on TikTok, but, you know, I think the architecture of the service is very clearly that you have the video is the primary thing.
我认为文本非常适合人们传递思想并进行互动交流。因此，在许多方面上，文本是一种非常好的讨论格式，具有独特的优点。如果观察一些专注于某种内容类型的其他格式或其他网络，比如TikTok显然非常受欢迎，但是在TikTok上的评论很少，同时我认为这项服务的结构非常明显：视频是主要的内容。
There's, you know, comments after that. Um, and, um, but I think one of the unique pieces of having text-based comments, uh, like content is that the comments can also be first class. And that makes it so that conversations can just filter and fork into all these different directions and in a way that's, that can be super useful. So I think there's a lot of things that are really awesome about the experience.
之后还有一些评论。但我认为，以文字为基础的评论可以成为优秀的评论，这是独特的一点。这使得会话可以过滤并分叉成各种不同的方向，这种方式可以非常有用。因此，我认为这种经验有很多不错的东西。
It just always struck me. I always thought that, you know, Twitter should have a billion people using it or whatever the thing is that, um, that, that, that basically ends up being in that space. And for whatever combination of reasons, again, it's, it's, these are, these companies are complex organisms and it's very hard to diagnose this stuff from the outside. Why doesn't Twitter, why doesn't a text based comment as a first citizen based social network have a billion users? Well, I just think it's hard to build these companies.
我一直觉得很奇怪，我总是认为，你知道的，Twitter应该有十亿人使用，或者其他什么在那个领域内占据主导地位的东西。但由于一些原因的组合，这些公司是复杂的生物，很难从外面诊断这些问题。为什么Twitter作为以文本评论作为社交网络的第一公民没有10亿用户呢？我只是认为建立这些公司很难。
So it's, um, you know, it's not that every idea automatically goes and gets a billion people. It's just that I think that that idea coupled with good execution should get there. Um, but, but I mean, look, we hit certain thresholds over time where, you know, we kind of plateaued early on and it wasn't clear that we were ever going to reach a hundred million people on Facebook and then we got really good at dialing in internationalization and helping the service grow in different countries and, um, and, and that was like a whole competence that we needed to develop and, um, in helping people basically spread the service to their friends.
嗯，你知道的，不是每个想法都能自动吸引到10亿人。我认为，一个好的想法和良好的执行力结合起来，应该能够实现这一目标。但是，我们随着时间的推移达到了某些阈值，早期的发展似乎无法使Facebook的用户数达到1亿，直到我们擅长国际化和帮助服务在不同国家扩展，这是我们需要发展的一项技能，以帮助人们将该服务传播给他们的朋友。
That was one of the things, once we got very good at that, that was one of the things that made me feel like, Hey, if, if Instagram joined us early on, then I felt like we could help grow that quickly and same with WhatsApp and like that, that's sort of been a core competence that we've developed, um, and been able to execute on and others have to, right?
那是我们其中一件非常擅长的事情之一，一旦我们做得非常好，那就是让我感觉到，如果Instagram早些时候加入我们，我们可以帮助它快速发展，WhatsApp也是如此。这是我们发展出来的核心能力，我们可以执行，而其他人也可以。
I mean, bydense obviously have done a very good job with TikTok and, and have, um, you know, reached more than a billion people there, but, um, but it's certainly not automatic, right? I think you need, you need a certain level of, of, um, of execution to basically get there. And, you know, I think for whatever reason, I think Twitter has this great idea and, and sort of magic in the service.
我的意思是，毫无疑问，TikTok真正做得非常出色，已经吸引了10亿多人，这方面Dense显然表现得很好，但是这并不是自动的。我认为需要一定程度的执行力才能达到这个水平。而且，我认为Twitter有一个很棒的想法，以及在服务中的一些神奇的东西。
Um, but I, I, they, they just haven't kind of cracked that piece yet. And I think that that's made it's that you see, you're seeing all these other things, whether it's Mastodon or, um, or, or blue sky, um, that, that I think are, you know, maybe just different, different cuts at the same thing.
嗯，但是我认为他们还没有完全解决这个问题。我认为这就是为什么你看到了这些其他的东西，比如Mastodon或者蓝天，虽然可能只是对同一件事的不同切割方式。
But, you know, I think through the last generation of, of, um, social media overall, one of the interesting experiments that I think should get run at larger scale is what happens if there's somewhat more decentralized control. And if it's like, the stack is more open throughout.
但是，你知道，我认为在过去的一代社交媒体中，比较有趣的实验之一是更加分散的控制。如果像这样，技术堆栈更加开放，更加分散，那会发生什么呢？这个实验应该在更大规模上运行。
And, um, I've just been pretty fascinated by that and seeing how that works. Um, to some degree, end to end encryption, um, on WhatsApp and as we bring it to other services provides an element of it because it pushes the service really out to the edges. I mean, the, the server part of this that we run for WhatsApp is relatively very thin compared to what we do on Facebook or Instagram. And much more of the complexity is, you know, and how the apps kind of negotiate with each other to pass information in a, in a fully end-end encrypted way.
嗯，我一直对这个很着迷，看看它是如何工作的。从某种程度上说，WhatsApp上的端对端加密以及我们将其引入其他服务都提供了一种元素，因为它将服务真正地推向了边缘。我的意思是，我们为WhatsApp运行的服务器部分相对于我们在Facebook或Instagram上做的事情非常薄弱。很多复杂性是由应用程序之间如何协商以完全端对端加密的方式传递信息。
Um, but I don't know. I think that that's, that is a good, is a good model. I think it puts more power in individuals' hands and there are a lot of benefits of it if you can, if you can make it happen. Again, this is all like pretty speculative. I, I mean, I, I think that it's, it's, you know, hard from the outside to know why anything does or doesn't work until you kind of take a run at it. And, um, so I, I think it's, it's kind of an interesting thing to experiment with, but I don't really know where this one's going to go.
嗯，我不确定。我认为这是一个很好的模式。如果你能够实现它，它会让个人拥有更多的权力，并且有很多好处。但这也只是一个推测。从外部来看，很难知道为什么某些东西会成功或者失败，直到你尝试了它。所以我认为这是一个很有趣的实验，但我真的不知道它会走向何方。
So since we were talking about Twitter, uh, Elon Musk had what I think a few harsh words that I wish he didn't say. So let me ask, uh, in, in, in, in the hope and the name of camaraderie, what do you think Elon is doing well with Twitter? And what, as a person who has run for a long time, you social networks, Facebook, Instagram, what's up? Uh, what can he do better? What can he improve on that text based social network? Gosh, it's, it's always very difficult to offer specific critiques from, from the outside before you get into this.
我们在谈论 Twitter 时，埃隆·马斯克说了一些话，我觉得有些过分，希望他没有说。所以我想问一下，在团结友谊的名义下，您认为埃隆在 Twitter 上做得好的地方是什么？作为长期经营社交网络的人，如 Facebook、Instagram 和 WhatsApp，您认为他可以做得更好吗？在这个基于文字的社交网络上，他可以改进些什么呢？哦，在进入细节之前，从外部提供具体的批评总是很困难的。
Because I think one thing that I've learned is that everyone has opinions on what you should do and like running the company, you see a lot of specific nuances on things that are not apparent externally. And, um, I often think that some of the discourse around us would be, could be better if, if there is more kind of space for acknowledging that there's certain things that we're seeing internally that guide what we're doing. But, um, but I don't know. I mean, because since you asked what, what is, what is going well, um, you know, I, I do think that Elon led a push early on to make Twitter a lot leaner.
我认为我学到的一件事情是每个人都有对你该做什么的看法，就像经营公司一样，你会看到许多对外不明显的细微差别。我经常认为，如果有更多的空间来承认我们内部看到的某些事情，这些话语周围的某些内容可能会更好。但是，我不知道。因为你问什么进展顺利，我认为埃隆早期领导推动了推特的精益化。
And, um, and I think that that, you know, it's like you can, you can agree or disagree with exactly all the tactics and how, and how we did that, you know, obviously, you know, every leader has their own style for if they, you know, if you need to make dramatic changes for that, how you're going to execute it. Um, but a lot of the specific principles that he pushed on, um, around basically trying to make the organization more technical around, um, decreasing the distance between engineers of the company and, and him, like fewer layers of management. Um, I think that those were generally good changes.
嗯，我认为这个意思是，你可以同意或不同意我们所采取的策略和做法，但是每个领导者都有自己的风格，如果你需要进行巨大的变革，就必须知道如何实施。他所倡导的很多具体原则，例如试图使组织更加技术化，减少公司工程师和他之间的距离，减少管理层的层数等等，我认为这些都是非常好的改变。
And I'm also, I also think that it was probably good for the industry that he made those changes, because my sense is that there were a lot of other people who thought that those were good changes, but who may have been a little shy about doing them. And I think he, um, you know, just in my conversations with other founders, um, and how people have reacted to the things that we've done, you know, what I've heard from a lot of folks is, is just, hey, you know, when you, when someone like you, you know, when I, when I wrote the letter outlining the organizational changes that I wanted to make, um, back in March and, you know, when people see what Elon is doing, um, like that that gives, you know, people the ability to think through how to shape their organizations in a, in a, in a way that, um, that, that, you know, hopefully can, can be good for the industry and make all these companies more productive over time. So, um, something that that was one where I think he was, um, quite ahead of, of a bunch of the, the other companies on, and, and, you know, what he was doing there, you know, again, from the outside, very hard to know.
我也认为他所做的变革对于整个行业来说可能是有益的，因为我感觉还有很多人认为这些变化是好的，但可能因为有些害羞而不敢去实施。通过和其他创始人交谈以及人们对我们所做事情的反应，我听到很多人都说，当像我这样的人（指他自己）或是像埃隆一样的人做了一些变革时，这让人们有能力去思考如何以一种更好的方式塑造自己的组织，希望这能对整个行业有所好处，使所有这些公司随着时间的推移变得更加高效。所以，在这方面，我认为他领先于其他很多公司，而他所做的事情，从外面看，很难知道。
It's like, okay, did he, did he cut too much? Did he knock enough? Whatever. I don't think it's like my place to opine on that. Um, and, and you asked for a, for a positive framing of the question of, of what, what do I, um, what do I admire? What do I think it went well? But I think that, like certainly his actions, um, led me and I think a lot of other folks in the industry to think about, Hey, are we, are we kind of doing this as much as we should? Like, can we, is it, like, could we make our companies better by pushing on some of these same principles?
这就像是，他是不是削减太多了？他是否做得足够好？无论如何，我认为我不应该对此发表意见。而且，你要求我对什么我欣赏的东西进行积极的表述，我认为，他的行动肯定让我和很多其他人在行业中思考，我们是否做得够好？我们是否可以通过推动一些相同的原则来让我们的公司变得更好呢？
Well, the two of you are in the top of the world in terms of leading the development of tech and I wish there was more, uh, both way, camaraderie and kindness, uh, more love in the world because love is the answer. Um, but, uh, let me ask on the, uh, a point of efficiency. You recently announced multiple stages of layoffs at meta. What are the most painful aspects of this process? Given for the individuals, the painful effects it has on those people's lives. Yeah, I mean, that's it. And that's it. I mean, it's, uh, you basically have a significant number of people who, you know, this is just not the end of their time at meta that they or, or I, you know, would have hoped for when they joined the company.
你们两个在科技发展方面处于世界领先地位，我希望世界上有更多的互相合作和仁慈，更多的爱，因为爱是答案。但是，让我来谈谈效率的问题。你们最近宣布在Meta进行了多个阶段的裁员。这个过程中最痛苦的方面是什么？考虑到个人，这对这些人生活的痛苦影响是什么。是的，我的意思就是这个。你基本上有很多人，他们的时间在Meta结束，这不是他们或我加入公司时所希望的结果。
Um, and, you know, I mean, running a company, there, people are, you know, constantly joining and leaving the company for different directions, but, but for different, different reasons. But, um, and layoffs are like uniquely challenging and tough in that you have a lot of people leaving for reasons that aren't connected to their own performance or, you know, the culture not being a fit at that point. It's really just, it's a, it's a kind of strategy decision and sometimes financially required. Um, but not, not fully in our case, especially on the changes that we made this year.
嗯，你知道，在经营一家公司时，人们会不断加入和离开公司，出于不同的方向，但出于不同的原因。裁员是独特的具有挑战性和困难的，因为有很多人离开公司的原因与自己的表现或文化不适合无关。这确实是一种战略决策，有时候也是出于财务的考虑。但在我们的情况下，这种情况并不完全适用，特别是在我们今年所做的变化方面。
A lot of it was more kind of culturally and strategically driven by this push where I wanted us to become a, a stronger technology company with a more of a focus on building, uh, more technical and, and, and more of a focus on building higher quality products faster. And I just view the external world is quite volatile right now. And I wanted to make sure that we had a stable position to be able to continue investing in these long term ambitious projects that we have around, you know, continuing to push AI forward and continuing to push forward all the metaverse work.
这些都是从文化和战略上推动的，在我想让我们成为一个更加强大的技术公司，更注重建造并且建立更高质量、更快速的产品。我认为外在世界现在很不稳定，因此我想确保我们拥有稳定的立场，能够继续投资这些长期的雄心勃勃的项目，如继续推进人工智能和推进所有元宇宙的工作。
And in order to do that in light of the, you know, pretty big thrash that we had seen over the last 18 months, you know, some of it, um, you know, macroeconomic induced, some of its specific, some of it competitively induced, some of it, um, just because of bad decisions, right? Or things that we got wrong. Um, I don't know. I just, I decided that we needed to get to a point where we were a lot leaner and, but look, I mean, but then, okay, it's, it's one thing to do that to like decide that at a high level, then the question is how do you execute that as compassionately as possible? And there's no good way.
为了应对过去18个月发生的相当大的动荡，其中一些源于宏观经济环境，一些源于特定情况，一些源于激烈的竞争，还有一些是因为错误决策或判断失误。为了解决这些问题，我认为我们需要变得更加精瘦。但是，做出这个决策只是高层决策的第一步，下一步就是如何尽量同情地执行它，这并不容易。没有一种完美的方式来做到这一点。
Um, there's no perfect way for sure. And it's, it's, it's going to be tough no matter what. But I, you know, as a leadership team here, we've certainly spent a lot of time just thinking, okay, given that this is a thing that sucks, like, what is the most compassionate way that we can do this? And, um, and that's what we've tried to do.
哦，确实没有完美的方式。而且，无论如何，这都会很困难。但是，我们作为领导团队，在这方面确实花费了很多时间，思考如何以最有同情心的方式来处理。我们尽力而为。
And you mentioned there, there's an increased focus on, uh, engineering on tech. So technology teams, tech focus teams on building products that. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to, I want to empower engineers more. The people are building things, the tech, the technical teams. Um, part of that is making sure that the people are building things aren't just at like the leaf nodes of the organization.
你提到过，现在对工程和技术有着更加重视的关注。因此技术团队更加注重构建产品。我想要给更多的工程师赋权，他们是构建技术和产品的人员。其中一部分就是确保这些人员不仅局限于组织的边缘岗位。
I don't want like, you know, eight levels of management and then the people actually doing the work. So we made changes to make it so that you have individual contributor engineers reporting at almost every level up the stack, which I think is important because, you know, running a company, one of the big questions is, you know, latency of, of information that you get.
我不希望有像八级管理那样的情况，而人们实际上还在做工作。因此，我们进行了改变，使得几乎每个层次上都有独立贡献的工程师报告，我认为这很重要，因为在经营公司时，一个重要的问题就是信息的延迟。
And we talked about this a bit earlier in terms of kind of the joy of, of, of, in the feedback that you get doing something like jujitsu compared to running a long term project. But I actually think part of the art of running a company is trying to constantly reengineer it so that your feedback loops get shorter so you can learn faster. And part of the way that you do that is by, I kind of think that every, every layer that you have in the organization, um, means that information might not need to get reviewed before it goes to you.
我们之前已经谈论过这个问题，关于在做柔术和长期项目中所得到的反馈的乐趣。但我认为，经营一家公司的艺术之一就是尝试不断地重新设计它，以使反馈循环变得更短，从而能够更快地学习。你可以通过组织中的每个层次来实现这一点，这意味着信息不需要在到达你之前被审核。
And I think, you know, making it so that the people doing the work are as close as possible to you as possible is, is, is pretty important. So there's that. And I think over time, companies just build up very large support functions that are not doing the kind of core technical work. And those functions are very important, but I think having them in the right proportion is, is important.
我认为，让执行工作的人尽可能地靠近你非常重要。随着时间的推移，公司会逐渐建立起很大的支持功能，但这些功能并没有做核心技术工作。尽管这些功能很重要，但是拥有适当的比例也同样重要。
And if, um, if you, you try to do good work, but you don't have, you know, the right, you know, marketing team or, um, or the right legal advice, like you're going to, you know, make some pretty big blunders, but, um, but at the same time, if you have, you know, if, if you just like have too big of, of, of things and some of these support roles, then that might make it so things are just move a lot. Um, I'm maybe you're too conservative or you, you move a lot slower. Um, uh, then, then you should otherwise introduce those are just examples, but it's, um, but how do you find that balance is really tough.
如果你想努力工作，但是你没有正确的营销团队或者正确的法律建议，那么你会犯一些非常大的错误。同样地，如果你的一些支持角色过于庞大，那么有些事情就会变得非常复杂。也许你会更加保守，或者你的速度会变得缓慢。这只是一些例子，但是如何找到平衡是非常困难的。
Yeah. No, but that's, it's a constant equilibrium that you're, that you're searching for. Yeah. How many managers to have? What are the pros and cons of managers? Well, I mean, I, I believe a lot in management. I think there are some people who think that it doesn't matter as much, but look, I mean, we have a lot of the younger people at the company for him. This is their first job and, you know, people need to grow and learn in their career and like that, all that stuff is important, but here's one mathematical way to look at it.
嗯，是的，但你一直在寻找的是一个不断平衡的状态。有多少经理是合适的？有经理的利弊是什么？我想，我非常相信管理。有些人认为管理并不那么重要，但是我们公司有很多年轻人，这是他们的第一份工作，人们需要在职业生涯中成长和学习，这些都很重要。但是，如果从数学上看，有一种方法可以看待这个问题。
Um, you know, at the beginning of this, we, um, I asked our, our people team, and it was the average number of, of reports that a manager had. And I think it was, it was around three, maybe three to four, but closer to three. I was like, wow, like a, a manager can, you know, best practices that person can, can manage, you know, seven or eight people. Um, but there was a reason why it was closer to three. It was because we were growing so quickly, right? And when you're hiring so many people so quickly, then that means that you need managers who have capacity to onboard new people.
嗯，你知道吗，开始时，我们向人事团队询问了经理平均处理报告的数量。我想大概是三份左右，甚至更接近三份。我惊奇地发现，经理可以管理7或8个人，实践效果很好。但是，原因是我们业务增长太快。当你在快速雇用如此多的人员时，就需要经理有能力带领新人进入公司。
Um, and also if you have a new manager, you may not want to have them have seven direct reports immediately because you want them to ramp up. But the thing is going forward, I don't want us to actually hire that many people that quickly, right? So I actually think we'll just do better work if we have more constraints and we're, um, you know, leaner is an organization.
如果你们有了新经理，你可能不想让他们立即负责七个直接下属，因为你希望他们有一个逐步增加的过程。但是，问题在于，未来我们并不想那么快地雇佣那么多员工，对吧？因此，我认为如果我们拥有更多的限制，例如保持精益的组织架构，我们将会做得更好。
So in a world where we're not adding so many people as quickly, is it as valuable to have a lot of managers who have extra capacity waiting for new people? No, right? So, um, so now we can, we can sort of defragment the organization and get to a place where the average is closer to that seven or eight, um, and it's, it's just ends up being a somewhat more kind of compact management structure, which, um, you know, decreases the latency on, on information going up and down the chain. And, um, and I think empowers people more. But I mean, that's, that's an example that I think it doesn't kind of undervalue the importance of management and, and the, um, kind of the personal growth or coaching that people need in order to do their jobs. Well, it's just, I think realistically we're, we're just not going to hire as many people going forward. So I think that you need a different structure.
在一个不再快速增加人口的世界中，拥有许多额外能力等待新人的管理者是否同样有价值呢？不是的，对吧？所以，现在我们可以对组织进行碎片整理，使平均水平更接近于七或八，这会使管理结构更加紧凑，减少信息传递的延迟，并增强人员的能力。但我认为，这不会低估管理的重要性和人们为了完成工作所需的个人成长或指导。现实情况是，我们未来不会再雇用太多人，所以我们需要不同的结构。
This whole, this whole incredible hierarchy and network of humans that make up a company is fascinating. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How do you hire great teams? How do you hire great now with the focus on engineering and technical teams? How do you hire great engineers and great members of technical teams? Well, you're asking how you select or how you attract them both, but select, I think, uh, I think attract is work on cool stuff and have a vision. I think the stuff works. I think that's right. And, and, and have a track record that people think you're actually going to be able to do it.
整个公司中由人组成的这个难以置信的层级和网络都是令人着迷的。哦，是的。你如何招聘出色的团队？现在，重点放在工程和技术团队上，你如何招聘出色的工程师和技术团队的成员？好吧，你是在问如何选择或吸引他们，但我认为吸引是致力于做酷炫的事情并有远见。我认为这件事会奏效。而且，你需要有人们相信你能做到的成功记录。
Yeah. To, to me, the select is seems like more of the art form, more of the tricky thing. Yeah. Do you select the people that fit the culture and can get integrated the most effectively and so on? And maybe, yeah. Especially when they're young to see like, to see the magic through the, through the resumes, through the paperwork and all this kind of stuff to see that there's a special human there that would do like incredible work. So there are lots of different cuts on this question.
是的。对我来说，挑选人才更像是一种艺术形式，更是一件棘手的事情。你是否选择适合企业文化并能够最有效地融入团队的人等等？也许，特别是在年轻人身上，可以透过简历、文件等来看，发掘特别的人才并让他们做出令人难以想象的工作。这个问题有很多不同的切入点。
I mean, I think when an organization is growing quickly, one of the big questions that teams face is, do I hire this person who's in front of me now because they seem good or do I hold out to get someone who's even better? And the heuristic that I always focused on for myself and my own kind of direct hiring that I, that I think works when you, when you recurse it through the organization is that you should only hire someone to be on your team if you would be happy working for them and an alternate universe. Yeah.
我的意思是，我认为当一个组织在快速成长时，团队面临的一个重要问题是，我是否应该雇用眼前这个似乎很出色的人，还是应该等待更好的人选？而我自己的直接招聘过程中，我总是关注一个启发式原则，即若你在另一个宇宙中工作时会感到满意，那么才应该雇用某人成为你团队的一员。我认为这个原则适用于整个组织。
So that, that kind of works and that's basically how I've tried to build my team. It's, you know, I'm not, I'm not in a rush to not be running the company, but I think in an alternate universe where one of these other folks was running the company, I'd be happy to work for them. I feel like I'd learn from them. I respect their kind of general judgment. They're all very insightful. They have good values. And I think that that gives you some rubric for, you can apply that at every layer. And I think if you apply that at every layer in the organization, then you'll have a pretty strong organization.
因此，这就是我尝试组建团队的方式。我并不急着让别人来管理公司，但在另一个时空里，如果其中一位团队成员来管理公司，我会很高兴为他们工作，因为我觉得我能从他们身上学到很多东西。他们都非常精明，有很好的价值观，这为整个组织提供了一个标准，每个层面都可以应用。如果你在组织的每一层面上都运用这个标准，那么你的组织就会非常强大。
Okay. In an organization that's not growing as quickly, the questions might be a little different though. And there, you asked about young people specifically, like people out of college. And one of the things that we see is it's, it's a pretty basic lesson, but like we have a much better sense of who the best people are, who have interned at the company for a couple of months, than by looking at them at kind of a resume or a short interview loop. I mean, obviously the in person feel that you get from someone probably tells you more than the resume. And you can do some basic skills assessment. But a lot of the stuff really just is cultural. People thrive in different environments and on different teams, even within a specific company.
在一个增长不那么快的组织中，问题可能会有所不同。在那里，你会特别询问年轻人，比如刚从大学毕业的人。我们发现一个相当基本的课程，也就是我们更了解那些在公司实习了几个月的最优秀的人，而不是通过查看简历或短暂的面试环节来确定。我的意思是，显然，与某人面对面交流的感受可能比简历更能告诉你更多。你可以进行一些基本的技能评估。但很多东西真的只是文化上的。人们在不同的环境和不同的团队中茁壮成长，即使在特定公司内部也是如此。
And it's like the people who come for even a short period of time over a summer, who do a great job here, you know that they're going to be great if they, if they came and joined full time. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why we've invested so much in internship is, is basically it's just, it's a very useful sorting function, both for us and for the people who want to try out the company.
即使只是在夏季来这里短暂工作的人，也表现出了出色的工作表现，他们如果全职参加工作，你就知道他们一定会非常优秀。这也是我们如此重视实习生的原因之一，因为实习生对我们和想要尝试公司的人来说，都是非常有用的筛选功能。
You mentioned in person, what do you think about remote work? A topic that's been discussed extensively because of the, over the past few years, because of the pandemic.
你曾经亲自提到过远程工作，你对此有什么看法？这是一个近几年来因为大流行病而被广泛讨论的话题。
Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I mean, it's, it's a thing that's here to stay. But I think that there's, there's value in both, right? It's not, you know, I wouldn't want to run a fully remote company yet, at least. I think there's an asterisk on that, which is that, which is that some of the other stuff you're working on.
是的。我的意思是，我认为这是一种不可或缺的事情。但我认为两种方式都有其价值，不是吗？但至少目前我不会想要运营一个完全的远程公司。不过，这其中也有一个前提，就是其他一些你正在努力的事情。
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's like all the, all the, you know, metaverse work and the ability to be, to feel like you're truly present, no matter where you are, I think once you have that all dialed in, then we may, you know, one day reach a point where it really just doesn't matter as much where you are physically. But I don't know, today it, today it still does, right?
嗯，没错。就好像整合所有的元宇宙工作和能够让你真正感觉存在于任何地方的能力，一旦你掌握了这一切，也许有一天我们会达到一个物理上的位置并不太重要的时代。但是今天来看，它仍然很重要，对吧？
So yeah, for people who, there are all these people who have special skills and want to live in a place where we don't have an office, are we better off having them at the company? Right. And there are a lot of people who work at the company for several years and then, you know, build up the relationships internally and kind of have the trust and have a sense of how the company works. Can they go work remotely now if they want and still do it as effectively?
对于那些拥有特殊技能并想要居住在我们没有办公室的地方的人，我们在公司中是否更好地利用他们呢？是的。此外，有很多人在公司工作了几年，建立了内部关系并建立了信任，对公司的运作也有了一定的了解。如果他们现在想远程工作，他们还能够有效地完成吗？
And we've done all these studies that show it's like, okay, does that affect their performance? It does not. But you know, for the new folks who are joining and for people who are earlier in their career and, you know, need to learn how to solve certain problems and need to get ramped up on the culture, you know, when you're working through really complicated problems where you don't just want to sit in the, you don't just want the formal meeting, but you want to be able to like brainstorm when you're walking in the hallway together after the meeting.
我们做了许多研究，表明这种做法不会影响他们的表现。但是对于新来的人和早期职业生涯的人来说，需要学习如何解决特定的问题，并需要融入文化。当你在解决非常复杂的问题时，你不仅要进行正式会议，还要在会议后一起走廊里脑力激荡。
I don't know. It's like we just haven't replaced the, the, the kind of in person dynamics there yet with, with anything remote yet. So yeah, there's a magic to the in person that we'll talk about this a little bit more, but they're, I'm really excited by the possibilities of the next two years in virtual reality and mixed reality that are possible with high resolution scans. I mean, I as a person who loves in person interaction, like these podcast in person, it would be incredible to achieve the level of realism I've gotten the chance to witness.
我不知道，就好像我们还没有用任何远程的东西取代面对面互动。所以，确实，面对面互动有一种魔力，我们稍后会详细谈论。但是，我非常兴奋地期待未来两年在虚拟现实和混合现实领域可能发生的高分辨率扫描。作为一个喜欢面对面交流的人，像这些播客在面对面的情况下，能够达到我所见过的那种真实感，真的是难以置信。
But let me ask about that. Yeah. I had a chance to look at the Quest three headset and it is amazing. You've, you've announced it. It's, you'll get some more details in the fall. Maybe you released in the fall. When is it getting released again? I forgot you mentioned.
但让我来问一下。是的，我有机会看一下Quest 3头戴式耳机，它非常惊人。你们已经宣布了它。你们会在秋季公布更多细节。也许你们会在秋季发布它。它将会在什么时候发布呢？我忘记你们提到的时间了。
We'll give more details a connect. But it's coming, it's coming this fall. Okay. It's priced at $4.99. What features are you most excited about there?
我们稍后会在连接中提供更多详细信息。 不过它将在今年秋季发布。好的。 它的价格是4.99美元。 你最期待的功能是什么？
They're basically two big new things that we've added to Quest three over Quest two. The first is high resolution mixed reality. And the basic idea here is that you can think about virtual reality as you have the headset and like all the pixels are virtual and you're basically like immersed in a different world.
我们在Quest 3上增加了两个全新的大功能。首先是高分辨率的混合现实技术。基本的理念是让你把虚拟现实想象成头戴式显示设备，所有的像素都是虚拟的，让你沉浸在一个不同的世界中。
Mixed reality is where you see the physical world around you and you can place virtual objects in it, whether that's a screen to watch a movie or a projection of your virtual desktop or you're playing a game where like zombies are coming out through the wall and you need to shoot them. Or you know, we're, you know, we're playing Dungeons and Dragons or some board game and we just have a virtual version of the board in front of us while we're sitting here. All that's possible in mixed reality. And I think that that is going to be the next big capability on top of virtual reality.
混合现实是你能够看到周围的物理世界，并能在其中放置虚拟物体，无论是观看电影的屏幕，还是您虚拟桌面的投影，或者是您玩游戏时，如丧尸从墙上出现，您需要射击它们。或者，我们在玩地下城与勇士或其他桌面游戏时，我们只需在面前放置一个虚拟版的游戏板即可。所有这些都在混合现实中可行。我认为，这将是在虚拟现实之上的下一个重大能力。
It is done so well. I have to say, as a personal experience that today with zombies, having a full awareness of the environment and integrating that environment in the way they run at you while they try to kill you. So it's just the mixed reality of the pass through is really, really, really well done. And the fact that it's only $500 is really, it's well done.
这个东西做得太好了。我必须说，从今天的僵尸来看，全面意识到环境，并将环境整合到他们向你冲来并试图杀死你的方式中，这是一个人的经验。因此，它只是很好地通过了混合现实的测试。只需要$ 500，这真的做得非常好。
Thank you. I'm super excited about it. I mean, our, and we put a lot of work into making the device both as good as possible and as affordable as possible because a big part of our mission and ethos here is we want people to be able to connect with each other.
谢谢。我非常为此兴奋。我的意思是我们，我们投入了大量工作，旨在使设备尽可能好且尽可能实惠，因为我们的任务和理念的一大部分是我们希望人们能够相互联系。
We want to reach and we want to serve a lot of people, right? We want to bring this technology to everyone, right? So we're not just trying to serve like an elite, a wealthy crowd. We really want this to be accessible.
我们想要触达和服务很多人，对吧？我们想让这项技术普及到每个人手中，对吧？所以我们并不只想服务精英和富裕人群，而是希望这项技术能够被更多人所使用。
So that is in a lot of ways an extremely hard technical problem because we don't just have the ability to put an unlimited amount of hardware. And thus we needed to basically deliver something that works really well, but in an affordable package.
因此，在很多方面，这都是一个非常艰巨的技术问题，因为我们不仅仅是可以随意加硬件的。因此，我们需要提供一种能够以可负担的价格提供出色功能的解决方案。
We've Quest Pro last year and it was $1,500 and now we've lowered the price to $1,000. But in a lot of ways, the mixed reality in Quest 3 is even better and more advanced level than what we were able to deliver in Quest Pro. So I'm really proud of where we are with Quest 3 on that.
去年我们推出了Quest Pro，售价为1500美元，现在我们将价格降低至1000美元。但在很多方面，Quest 3的混合现实技术比我们能够在Quest Pro中提供的更先进和更好。所以我对我们在Quest 3方面所取得的成就感到非常自豪。
It's going to work with all of the virtual reality titles and everything that existed there, so people who want to play fully immersive games, social experiences, fitness, all that stuff will work. But now you'll also get mixed reality too, which I think people really like because sometimes you want to be super immersed in a game.
它将与所有虚拟现实标题和现有的一切配合使用，所以想要玩全面沉浸式游戏、社交体验、健身等所有东西的人都可以使用。但现在你也可以得到混合现实，我认为人们真的喜欢它，因为有时你想要在游戏中超级沉浸。
But a lot of the time, especially when you're moving around, if you're active, you're doing some fitness experience. Let's say you're doing boxing or something. It's like, you kind of want to be able to see the room around you so that way you know that I'm not going to punch a lamp or something like that.
但很多时候，尤其是当你在移动时，如果你很活跃，你在做一些健身体验。比如说你在打拳击之类的。就像，你想看到周围的房间，这样你就知道我不会打到灯之类的东西。
And I don't know if you have to play with this experience, but I mean, we basically have that. And it's just sort of like a fun little demo that we put together. But it's like you just, you know, you're like in a conference room or you're a living room and you have the guy there and you're boxing him and you're fighting him.
我不知道你是否想体验这个，但我们基本上有这个东西。这仅仅是一个我们组合的有趣小演示。就像你坐在一个会议室或客厅里，你面前有个人，你在搏击他，与他战斗一样。
And it's like, all the other people are there too. I got a chance to do that. Yeah. And all the people are there. It's like that guy is right there. Yeah. And the other human, the path that you're seeing them also, they can cheer you on.
这就像其他人也会在那里一样。我有机会做到这一点。是的，所有的人都在那里。就像那个人就在那里一样。而且还有其他的人，你可以看到他们，他们可以为你加油打气。
They can make fun of you if you, if there are anything like friends of mine. And then just it, yeah, it's really, it's a really compelling experience. I mean, VR is really interesting too, but this is something else almost. This is this because integrating into your life into your world. Yeah.
如果你的朋友们像我一样，他们可能会嘲笑你。但这并不是重点，因为这是一个非常有吸引力的体验。虚拟现实也很有趣，但这几乎是另一种东西。它可以融入你的生活和世界中。
And it, so I think it's a completely new capability that will unlock a lot of different content and I think it'll also just make the experience more comfortable for a set of people who didn't want to have only fully immersive experiences.
我认为这是一项全新的功能，可以解锁许多不同的内容，这将使体验更加舒适，而不是只提供完全沉浸式的体验，特别是为了那些不想仅仅有完全沉浸式体验的人。
I think if you want experiences, we're grounded in, you know, your living room in the physical world around you, now you'll be able to have that too. And I think that that's pretty exciting.
我认为，如果你想要体验的话，我们所依托的，就是你身边的客厅和身处的真实世界，现在你也可以得到这样的体验。我认为这非常令人兴奋。
I really liked how it added windows to a room with no windows. Yeah. Me as a person. Do you see the aquarium one where you could see the sharks swim up or is that just a zombie one where it's not one, but it's still off the side.
我真的很喜欢它给没有窗户的房间添加窗户的方式。是的，就像是我这个人。你看过那个水族馆里可以看到鲨鱼游过来的那个吗？还是只有那个僵尸的，虽然不是真的，但还是在旁边吗？
You don't necessarily want windows added to your living room where zombies come out of, but yes, the context of that game is, yeah, yeah, it's good. I enjoyed it because you could see the nature outside. And me as a person that doesn't have windows, it's just nice to have nature.
你不一定想在有僵尸出现的客厅里加窗户，但是，那个游戏的背景是不错的，我喜欢它，因为你能看到外面的自然风光。而且对于我这个没有窗户的人来说，拥有自然风景还是非常不错的感觉。
Yeah. Well, even if it's a mixed reality setting, it's cut like there's a, I know it's a zombie game, but there's a Zen nature, Zen aspect to being able to look outside and alter your environment as you know it. Yeah.
是的。即使是混合现实环境，它也像是被裁剪了一样，我知道这是一个僵尸游戏，但它有一种禅的本质，你可以看向外面并改变你所知道的环境。是的。
In a there will probably be better more Zen ways to do that than the game you're describing, but you're right that the, the basic idea of sort of having your physical environment on pass through, but then being able to bring in different elements, external, I mean, I think it's going to be super powerful. And in some ways, I think that these are mixed realities.
在未来可能有更好更禅的方法来完成你所描述的游戏，但是你说的基本思想是正确的，即通过通行证将物理环境带入，然后能够引入不同的元素，外部的元素，这将是非常强大的。在某些方面，我认为这些是混合现实。
So a predecessor to eventually we will get AR glasses that are not kind of the goggles form factor of the current generation of, of headsets that people are making. But I think a lot of the experiences that developers are making for mixed reality of basically you just have a kind of a hologram that you're putting in the world will hopefully apply once we, once we get the, the AR glasses to now that's got its own whole set of challenges.
最终，我们迟早会得到一种AR眼镜，而不是目前人们制造的头戴式设备的眼罩形态。但是，我认为开发人员正在为混合现实创建的许多体验基本上只是将你放在世界上的一种全息图像，这些体验希望一旦我们获得了AR眼镜，这将适用于其自己的一整套挑战。
Well, the headset is already smaller than the previous version. Oh, yeah. 40% thinner. And the other thing that I think is good about it. It's, yeah, so mixed reality was the first big thing.
嗯，这款耳机已经比之前的版本要小了，是的，小了40%。另外我认为这款耳机还有一个好处，就是它支持混合现实，这是它的一大特色。
The second is it's just a great VR headset. It's, I mean, it's got two X, the graphics processing power, 40% sharper screens, 40% thinner, more comfortable, better strap architecture, all this stuff that, you know, if you liked Quest two, I think that this is just going to be, you know, it's like all this, all the content that you might have played in Quest two is just going to be sharper automatically and look better in this. So it's, I think people are really going to like it.
第二个原因是它是一个非常好的虚拟现实头戴式显示器。它有两倍的图像处理能力，屏幕比之前清晰度提高了40%，厚度减少了40%，更加舒适，使用的带子架构更加优秀。如果你喜欢Quest 2，我认为这款产品就是升级版，所有你可能已经在Quest 2上玩过的游戏内容都会自动变得更加清晰、更好看。因此，我认为人们会非常喜欢它。
Yeah. So this fall, this fall, I have to ask Apple just announced a mixed reality headset called Vision Pro for $3,500 available in early 2024. What do you think about this headset?
嗯，这个秋天，我必须询问，苹果刚刚宣布了一个名为Vision Pro的混合现实头戴式显示器，售价为3500美元，在2024年初可用。你对这个头盔有什么看法呢？
这句话的意思是，苹果公司刚刚宣布了一款名为Vision Pro的混合现实头戴式显示器，售价为3500美元，预计在2024年早些时候推出。对此，说话者想知道听者对这个产品有何看法。
Well, I saw the materials when they launched. I haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet. So, so, so kind of take everything with a grain of salt, but a few high level thoughts. I mean, first, you know, I do think that this is a certain level of validation for the category, right, where, you know, we were the primary folks out there before saying, hey, I think that this, you know, virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality, this is going to be a big part of the next computing platform.
嗯，当他们推出这些材料时，我看到了。我还没有机会去试玩它。所以，我认为应该保持一定的谨慎，但还是有一些高层次的想法。首先，你知道，我认为这是对这个领域的一定程度的认可，我们之前一直是主要的人在外面，说，“嘿，我认为这个，你知道，虚拟现实、增强现实、混合现实，这将成为下一代计算平台的重要部分。”
I think having Apple come in and share that vision will make a lot of people who are fans of their products really consider that. And then, you know, of course, the $3,500 price, you know, on the one hand, I get it for with all the stuff that they're trying to pack in there. On the other hand, a lot of people aren't going to find that to be affordable. So I think that there's a chance that that them coming in actually increases demand for the overall space and that Quest 3 is actually the primary beneficiary of that because a lot of the people who might say, hey, you know, this, I think I'm going to give another consideration to this or, you know, now I understand maybe what mixed reality is more.
我认为苹果的加入会使许多爱好他们产品的人开始考虑购买。当然，这款产品售价3500美元，一方面可能是因为它集成了许多功能，但另一方面，很多人可能会觉得负担不起。因此，我认为苹果的加入可能会增加整个市场的需求，而Quest 3可能会是最大的受益者。因为很多人可能会重新考虑购买它，或者更好地理解混合现实技术。
And in Quest 3 is the best one on the market that I can afford. And it's great also, right? I think that that's, you know, in our own way, I think where there are a lot of features that we have where we're leading on. So I think that that I think is going to be a very, that could be quite good. And then obviously over time, the companies are just focused on somewhat different things. Right. Apple has always, you know, I think focused on building really kind of high-end things, whereas our focus has been on it's just a, we have a more democratic ethos. We want to build things that are accessible to a wider number of people.
在我能负担得起的市场上，第三代Quest是最好的。而且它也很棒，对吧？我觉得在我们自己的方式上，我们有很多领先的功能。所以我认为这可能会很不错。当然，随着时间的推移，公司们关注的事情也有所不同。苹果一直致力于构建高端产品，而我们的重点是我们有更民主的理念。我们想构建可以让更多人使用的产品。
You know, we've sold tens of millions of Quest devices. My understanding, just based on rumors, I don't have any special knowledge on this, is that Apple is building about 1 million of their device, right? So just in terms of like what you kind of expect in terms of sales numbers, I just think that this is, I mean, Quest is going to be the primary thing that people in the market will continue using for the foreseeable future. And then obviously over the long term, it's up to the companies to see how well we each executed the different things that we're doing. But we kind of commented from different places. We're very focused on social interaction, communication, being more active, right? So fitness, there's gaming, there are those things. Whereas I think a lot of the use cases that you saw in Apple's launch material were more around people sitting, you know, people looking at screens, which are great.
你知道，我们已经销售了数千万个Quest设备。根据传言，我没有任何特殊的知识，我的理解是，苹果正在制造大约100万台他们的设备，对吧？就销售数量而言，我认为Quest将成为市场上人们持续使用的主要选择。显然，在长期内，公司如何执行我们各自不同的任务，仍然需要观察。但是我们从不同的角度提出了评论。我们非常注重社交互动，交流和更活跃的生活方式，如健身和游戏等。相比之下，我认为苹果发布的资料中观看屏幕的人和坐着的人所涉及的用例更多，这些用例也非常好。
I think that you will replace your laptop over time with a headset. But I think in terms of kind of how the different use cases that the companies are going after, they're a bit different for where we are right now. Yeah, so gaming wasn't a big part of the presentation, which is interesting. It feels like mixed reality, gaming is such a big part of that. It was interesting to see it missing in the presentation.
我认为随着时间的推移，你会用耳机取代笔记本电脑。但就目前公司所追求的不同用户用例而言，它们的区别有点大。是的，在这次演示中，游戏并不是很重要的一部分，这很有趣。感觉混合现实游戏是其中的重要一环，但在演示中却没有提到，这一点很有趣。
Well, I mean, look, there are certain design trade-offs in this where they made this point about not wanting to have controllers, which on the one hand, there's a certain elegance about just being able to navigate the system with eye gaze and hand tracking. And by the way, you'll be able to just navigate quest with your hands too, if that's what you want. Yeah, one of the things I should mention is the capability from the cameras with computer vision to detect certain aspects of the hand, allowing you to have a controller that doesn't have that ring thing.
嗯，我的意思是，你看，这种设计上有一些折中的考虑，他们指出不想要控制器，其中一方面，只需通过眼神和手部跟踪来导航系统是一种优雅的方式。顺便说一句，如果你想要，你也可以只用双手导航Quest。是的，我应该提及的一点是，使用计算机视觉的相机可以检测到手的某些特征，让你不用那个戒指形状的控制器。
Yeah, the hand tracking in Quest 3 and the controller tracking is a big step up from the last generation. And one of the demos that we have is basically an MR experience teaching you how to play piano where it basically highlights the notes that you need to play, and it's like, just all its hands, it's no controllers. But I think if you care about gaming, having a controller allows you to have a more tactile feel and allows you to capture fine motor movement much more precisely than what you can do with hands without something that you're touching.
是的，Quest 3的手部追踪和控制器追踪相比上一代有了很大进步。我们展示的其中一个演示是一种MR体验，教你如何弹钢琴，它会突出显示你需要演奏的音符，而且只是双手，没有控制器。但我认为，如果你在意游戏，拥有一个控制器可以让你更加接触游戏，让你的小运动更加精确地被捕捉到，而这是单单靠手部操作是做不到的。
So again, I think there are certain questions which are just around what use cases are you optimizing for. I think if you want to play games, then I think that I think you want to design the system in a different way, and we're more focused on social experiences, entertainment experiences. Whereas if what you want is to make sure that the text that you read on a screen is as crisp as possible, then you need to make the design and cost trade-offs that they made that lead you to making a $3,500 device. So I think that there is a use case for that for sure, but I just think that the companies we've basically made different design trade-offs to get to the use cases that we're trying to serve.
我认为有一些问题需要考虑哪些使用情况是需要优化的。如果你想玩游戏，那么你就需要以不同的方式设计系统，而我们更关注社交体验和娱乐体验。如果你想确保屏幕上的文本尽可能清晰，那么你需要做出设计和成本的权衡，这也是导致价格为3500美元的设备的设计元素。我认为对于这种情况确实存在用例，但我认为我们公司为了满足我们所服务的使用情况做出了不同的设计取舍。
There's a lot of other stuff I'd love to talk to you about, about the metaverse, especially the Kodak Avatar, which I've gotten to experience a lot of different variations of recently that I'm really, really excited to talk about that too. I'll have to wait a little bit because, well, I think there's a lot more to show off in that regard.
有很多关于元宇宙的东西我很想与你交流，尤其是柯达化身，最近我已经体验了很多不同版本，非常非常兴奋想要谈谈。但我得等一会儿，因为我认为在这方面还有很多更值得展示的。
But let me step back to AI. I think we've mentioned it a little bit, but I'd like to linger on this question that folks like the LAS or Kowski has a worry about and others of the existential, serious threats of AI that have been reinvigorated now with the rapid developments of AI systems. Do you worry about the existential risks of AI as LAS or does about the alignment problem, about this getting out of hand? Anytime where there's a number of serious people who are raising a concern that is that existential about something that you're involved with, I think you have to think about it.
但是让我先回到人工智能。我们谈到了这个话题，但是我想要详细探讨一下像LAS或者Kowski这样的人所担心的人工智能的存在性威胁和其他的重大威胁，尤其是现在人工智能系统快速发展的情况下。你是否担心人工智能的存在性威胁，像LAS担心的这种无法控制的对齐问题？当有很多重要人物提出一个与你有关的存在性问题时，我认为你必须考虑这个问题。
So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about it from that perspective. The thing that I basically have come out on this for now is I do think that there are, over time, I think that we need to think about this even more as we approach something that could be closer to superintelligence. I just think it's pretty clear to anyone working on these projects today that we're not there. And one of my concerns is that we spent a fair amount of time on this before, but there are more. I don't know if mundane is the right word, but there's concerns that already exist, right about people using AI tools to do harmful things of the type that we're already aware, whether we talked about fraud or scams or different things like that. And that's going to be a pretty big set of challenges that the company is working on this.
我花了相当长的时间从那个角度来思考这个问题。目前为止，我基本上得出的结论是，我认为随着我们接近可能更接近超级智能的东西，随着时间的推移，我们需要更多地思考这个问题。我只是认为，对于今天正在从事这些项目的任何人来说，很明显我们还没有达到那个水平。我的一个担忧是，我们之前也花了相当多的时间在这个上面，但还有更多。我不知道"平凡"是否是正确的词，但已经存在一些令人担忧的问题，比如人们使用人工智能工具进行欺诈、骗局等恶意行为，我们已经意识到这些问题。这将是公司正在努力应对的一系列重大挑战。
They're going to need to grapple with regardless of whether there is an existential concern as well at some point down the road. So I do worry that to some degree people can get a little too focused on some of the tail risk and then not do as good of a job as we need to on the things that you can be almost certain are going to come down the pipe as real risks that kind of manifest themselves in the near term. So for me, I've spent most of my time on that once I kind of made the realization that the size of models that we're talking about now in terms of what we're building are quite far from the superintelligence type concerns that people raise. But I think once we get a couple steps closer to that, I know as we do get closer, I think that those, you know, there are going to be some novel risks and issues about how we make sure that the systems are safe for sure.
在未来的某个时候，他们需要处理是否存在存在性问题。因此，我担心人们可能会过于关注一些“尾部风险”，然后没有做好我们需要做的一些事情，这些事情几乎可以确定在不久的将来作为真正的风险出现。对我来说，我大部分时间都花在这方面，因为我意识到我们现在正在构建的模型规模与人们提出的超级智能问题相去甚远。但我认为一旦我们离那个问题近了一些，我知道随着我们的逼近，一定会出现一些新的风险和问题，关于如何确保系统的安全性是非常重要的。
I guess here just to take the conversation in a somewhat different direction. I think in some of these debates around safety, I think the concepts of intelligence and autonomy or like the being of the thing as an analogy, they get kind of conflated together. And I think it very well could be the case that you can make something in scale intelligence quite far, but that that may not manifest the safety concerns that people are saying in the sense that I mean, just if you look at human biology, it's like, all right, we have our neocortex is where all the thinking happens, right? But it's not really calling the shots at the end of the day.
我想这里只是想把对话引向一个略微不同的方向。在关于安全性的一些辩论中，我认为智能和自主性或者说是事物的本质这些概念易混淆在一起。我认为这可能会出现这样的情况，你可以让某样东西的智能飞跃式地发展，但这并不一定就意味着人们所关注的安全问题就会出现。我的意思是，我们看看人的生物学，我们的新皮层是所有思考的发生处，对吧？但它在一天结束时不是真正决定一切的。
We have a much more primitive old brain structure for which our neocortex, which is this powerful machinery is basically just a kind of prediction and reasoning engine to help it kind of like our very simple brain decide how to plan and do what it needs to do in order to change achieve these like very kind of basic impulses. And I think that you can think about some of the development of intelligence along the same lines where just like our neocortex doesn't have free will or autonomy, we might develop these wildly intelligent systems that are much more intelligent than our neocortex have much more capacity, but are in the same way that our neocortex is sort of subservient and is used as a tool by our kind of simple impulse brain.
我们拥有一个更为原始的大脑结构，我们的新皮层就像一个强大的预测和推理引擎，基本上只是帮助它的简单大脑决定如何计划并完成它需要的改变以实现这些非常基本的冲动。我认为你可以将智能发展的一些方面看作是同样的，就像我们的新皮层没有自由意志或自主性一样，我们可能会开发出比我们的新皮层更为智能的系统，其能力更强，但以与我们的简单冲动大脑作为工具的方式使用。
It's, you know, I think that it's not out of the question that very intelligent systems that have the capacity to think will kind of act as that is sort of an extension of the neocortex doing that. So I think my own view is that where we really need to be careful is on the development of autonomy and how we think about that, because it's actually the case that relatively simple and unintelligent things that have runaway autonomy and just spread themselves or, you know, it's like we have a word for that. It's a virus, right? It's I mean, like it's can be simple computer code that is not particularly intelligent, but just spreads itself and does a lot of harm biologically or computer.
我认为，那些有智能思维能力的系统可能会成为类似新大脑皮层的扩展。因此，我们必须非常谨慎地发展自主性，思考自主性的问题。因为事实上，一些相对简单且不够智能的东西也可能成为具有失控自主性的病毒，会在生物或计算机方面造成很多伤害。它们可以是很简单的计算机代码，但它们会快速繁殖并且具有破坏性。
And I just think that these are somewhat separable things. And a lot of what I think we need to develop when people talk about safety and responsibility is really the governance on the autonomy that can be given to systems. And to me, if, you know, if I were, you know, a policymakers or think about this, I would really want to think about that distinction between these, where I think building intelligent systems will be, can create a huge advance in terms of people's quality of life and productivity growth in the economy.
我认为安全和责任是可以分开考虑的两件事。当人们谈论安全和责任时，我认为我们需要发展的是对系统自主权的治理。如果我是一个政策制定者或者正在思考这个问题，我会非常希望思考这两个方面的区别，因为我认为建立智能系统将对人们的生活质量和经济生产率的增长带来巨大的进步。
But it's the autonomy part of this that I think we really need to make progress on how to govern these things responsibly before we build the capacity for them to make a lot of decisions on their own or give them goals or things like that. And I think that that's a research problem, but I do think that to some degree, these are somewhat are somewhat separable things.
我认为我们需要在如何负责地管理这些事物之前，取得自主权方面的进展，然后才能赋予它们自主决策或是许多目标等能力。我认为这是一个研究问题，但是我认为在某种程度上，这些事情可以在一定程度上分开来看。
I love the distinction between intelligence and autonomy and the metaphor with the neocortex. Let me ask about power. So building super intelligent systems, even if it's not in the near term, I think meta as is one of the few companies, if not the main company that will develop the super intelligent system, and you are a man who's at the head of this company, building AGI might make you the most powerful man in the world. Do you worry that that power will corrupt you?
我很喜欢智能和自主性的区别，以及与新皮质的隐喻。让我问一个关于权力的问题。因此，即使在近期内，构建超级智能系统，我认为Meta是为数不多的公司之一，如果不是主要的公司，将开发超级智能系统，而你是这家公司的负责人，构建AGI可能会让你成为世界上最有权力的人。你担心这种权力会使你堕落吗？
What a question. I mean, look, I think realistically this gets back to the open source things that we talked about before, which is I don't think that the world will be best served by any small number of organizations having this without it being something that is more broadly available. And I think if you look through history, it's when there are these sort of like unipolar advances and things that in like power imbalances that they're doing to being kind of weird situations. So this is one of the reasons why I think open sources is generally the right approach.
这是一个好问题。我的意思是，我认为从现实角度来看，这与我们之前讨论的开源问题有关。我认为，如果只有少数几个机构可以使用这个技术，而不是更广泛地推广使用，那么这个技术并不能最好地服务于整个世界。我觉得如果你回顾历史，就会发现，当存在这种单极化的进步时，以及当力量的平衡被打破的时候，情况往往变得很奇怪。因此，我认为开放源代码通常是正确的方法之一。
And I think it's a categorically different question today when we're not close to super intelligence. I think that there's a good chance that even once we get closer to super intelligence, open sourcing remains the right approach, even though I think at that point it's a somewhat different debate. But I think part of that is that that is, I think one of the best ways to ensure that the system is as secure and safe as possible because it's not just about a lot of people having access to it. It's the scrutiny that kind of comes with building an open source system, right?
我认为，现在我们距离超级智能还很远，所以问题的性质也是截然不同的。即使我们接近超级智能，公开源代码仍可能是正确的途径，尽管到那时，这个问题的讨论可能会有些不同。但我认为原因之一是，公开源代码是确保系统安全、可靠的最好方式之一，因为这不仅仅是让很多人都能访问它，还有公开源代码后系统将接受更多的审查，进而更加安全稳定。
I think that this is a pretty widely accepted thing about open sources that you have the code out there so anyone can see the vulnerabilities. Anyone can kind of mess with it in different ways. People can spin off their own projects and experiment in a ton of different ways. And the net result of all of that is that the systems just get hardened and get to be a lot safer and more secure. So I think that there's a chance that that ends up being the way that this goes to a pretty good chance and that having this be open both leads to a healthier development of the technology and also leads to a more balanced distribution of the technology in a way that strikes me as good values to aspire to.
我认为，在开放源代码的意义上，有一件被广泛认可的事情就是源代码可以被公开，这样任何人都可以看到其中的漏洞。任何人都可以通过不同的方式对其进行操作。人们可以发起自己的项目，进行大量的实验。所有这一切的结果就是这些系统得到了巩固，变得更加安全。因此，我认为这可能会成为一种很好的方式，并且开放源代码既有助于技术更健康地发展，又有助于以符合良好价值观的方式更平衡地分配技术。
So to you, there's risks to open sourcing, but the benefits outweigh the risks. At the two, it's interesting. I think the way you put it well, that there's a different discussion now than when we get closer to development of super intelligence of the benefits and risks of open sourcing. Yeah. And to be clear, I feel quite confident in the assessment that open sourcing models now is net positive. I think there's a good argument that in the future, it will be too, even as you get closer to super intelligence. But I've certainly have not decided on that yet. And I think that it becomes a somewhat more complex set of questions that I think people will have time to debate and will also be informed by what happens between now and then and to make those decisions. We don't have to necessarily just debate that in theory right now.
对你来说，开源存在风险，但好处比风险更值得。这两个方面都很有趣。我觉得你说得很好，现在讨论开源的好处和风险与以后发展超级智能时的讨论有所不同。是的。不过，我相当有信心地认为，现在开源模型净好处。在未来，我认为也会有这样的优势，即使你更接近超级智能。但我还没有决定。我认为这将是一个更加复杂的问题，人们将有时间讨论，并会受到当前和未来的情况影响，以做出这些决定。我们现在不必仅在理论上争论。
What year do you think will have a super intelligence? I don't know. I mean, that's pure speculation. I think it's very clear just taking a step back that we had a big breakthrough in the last year, right, where the LOMs and diffusion models basically reached a scale where they're able to do some pretty interesting things. And then I think the question is what happens from here and just to paint the two extremes on the on one side, it's like, okay, we just had one breakthrough. If we just have like another breakthrough like that or maybe two, then we can have something that's truly crazy, right? And is like is just like so much more advanced and on that side of the argument, it's like, okay, well, maybe we're only a couple of big steps away from reaching something that looks more like general intelligence.
你认为哪一年会出现超级智能？我不知道。我的意思是，这只是纯粹的推测。如果退后一步看，我们在过去一年中实现了一次重大突破，LOM和扩散模型达到了一个规模，能够完成一些相当有趣的事情。然后我认为问题是从现在开始会发生什么，只是举个例，有两个极端的情况，一方面，好像我们刚刚迎来了一个突破，如果我们再有一个或者两个突破，那我们就会拥有真正疯狂的东西，非常先进。另一方面，也有可能只有几个重要的步骤就能接近类似于通用智能的东西。
Okay, that's one side of the argument. And the other side, which is what we've historically seen a lot more, is that a breakthrough leads to in that in that Gartner hype cycle, there's like the hype and then there's the trough of disillusionment after when like people think that there's a chance that, hey, okay, there's a big breakthrough, maybe we're about to get another big breakthrough. And it's like, actually, you're not about to get another breakthrough. Maybe you're actually just going to have to sit with this one for a while. And, you know, it could be, it could be five years, it could be 10 years, it could be 15 years until you figure out the kind of the next big thing that needs to get figured out. And but I think that the fact that we just had this breakthrough sort of makes it so that we're at a point of almost a very wide error bars on what happens next.
好的，那是一个观点。另一方面，我们历史上看到的更多的是，一次突破会在那个名为Gartner炒作周期的过程中引发失望的谷底，人们认为有可能会有另一个重大突破，但实际上并没有。也许你实际上需要花费一段时间来理解这一突破。可能需要5年，10年，甚至15年才能找到下一个需要解决的大问题。但我认为我们刚刚有了这个突破，让我们对接下来会发生什么有了更宽的误差范围。
I think the traditional technical view, like looking at the industry would suggest that we're not just going to stack in a breakthrough on top of breakthrough on top of breakthrough like every six months or something right now. I think it will, I'm guessing, I would guess that it will take somewhat longer in between these, but I don't know. I tend to be pretty optimistic about breakthroughs too. So I mean, so I think if you, if you, if you normalized for, for my normal optimism, then then maybe it would be even, even slower than what I'm saying. But, but even within that, like I'm not even opining on the question of how many breakthroughs are required to get to general intelligence because no one knows.
我认为传统的技术观点认为，我们不会每六个月就像叠加突破一样去看待行业。我猜，这样的时间间隔会比较长，但我不确定。我往往对突破持乐观态度。所以，如果你在我的乐观态度下进行比较，也许会更慢。但是，即使在这种情况下，我都不能判断达到普遍智能需要多少次突破，因为没有人知道。
But this particular breakthrough was so such a small step that resulted in such a big leap in performance as experienced by human beings that it makes you think, wow, are we, as we stumble across this very open world of research, will we stumble across another thing that will have a giant leap in performance? And also we don't know exactly at which stage is it really going to be impressive because it feels like it's really encroaching on impressive levels of intelligence. You still didn't answer the question of what year we're going to have super intelligence that like to hold you to that. No, I'm just kidding.
这个突破虽然只是一个小步骤，却给人类的性能带来了一大步的飞跃，让你感到惊叹。这让我们想到，在我们跨越这个开放的研究世界时，我们会不会再次碰到能大幅提升性能的事物呢？而且我们不知道究竟哪个阶段才真正会令人惊叹，因为它似乎正在接近卓越的智能水平。你还没有回答我们何时会有超级智能，我们会记住你的答案。不，开玩笑的。
But is there something you could say about the timeline as you think about the development of AGI super intelligence systems? Sure, so I still don't think I have any particular insight on when like a singular AI system that is a general intelligence will get created. But I think that one thing that most people in the discourse that I've seen about this haven't really grappled with is that we do seem to have organizations and structures in the world that exhibit greater than human intelligence already.
但是，当你考虑到AGI超级智能系统的发展时间表时，你能说些什么吗？当然，我仍然不认为我有任何特别的洞见，知道一个普遍的人工智能系统将会被创建的时间点。但我认为，许多我看到的讨论中，大多数人没有真正思考过的是，我们似乎已经有一些组织和结构在展现出超越人类智能的能力。
So one example is a company. It acts as an entity. It has a singular brand. Obviously it's a collection of people. But I certainly hope that meta with tens of thousands of people makes smarter decisions than one person. But I think that that would be pretty bad if it didn't.
一个例子是一家公司。它作为一个实体行动，并有一个单一的品牌。显然，它由一群人组成。但我肯定希望有上万人的公司，能够做出比一个人更明智的决策。但如果不能做到这一点，那将是相当糟糕的。
Another example that I think is even more removed from the way we think about the personification of intelligence, which is often implied in some of these questions, is think about something like the stock market. The stock market takes inputs. It's a distributed system. It's like the cybernetic organism that probably millions of people around the world are basically voting every day by choosing what to invest in.
我认为另一个更加与我们对智能人格化的思考相去甚远的例子就是股票市场。股票市场接收着不同的信息输入，是一个分布式系统。它就像一个基本上有数百万人从事的生物程序，这些人通过选择投资来进行每日的表决。
It's basically this organism or structure that is smarter than any individual that we use to allocate capital as efficiently as possible around the world. I do think that this notion that there are already these cybernetic systems that are either melding the intelligence of multiple people together or melding the intelligence of multiple people and technology together to form something which is dramatically more intelligent than any individual in the world is something that seems to exist and that we seem to be able to harness in a productive way for our society as long as we basically build these structures and balance with each other.
这基本上是一个比任何个人都更聪明的生物或结构，我们用它来尽可能高效地分配全球资本。我认为，这种想法已经存在，已经有这些控制系统，无论是把多个人的智慧融合在一起，还是将多个人和技术融合在一起，形成比世界上任何个人都聪明得多的东西。只要我们建立这些结构并平衡彼此之间的关系，我们似乎能够以有益的方式利用它，造福于我们的社会。
I don't know. That at least gives me hope that as we advance the technology, and I don't know how long exactly it's going to be, but you asked when is this going to exist? I think to some degree we already have many organizations in the world that are smarter than a single human. That seems to be something that is generally productive and advancing humanity.
我不知道。但至少这样让我对技术的发展抱有希望，虽然我不确定还需要多长时间。但你问这个什么时候会存在？我认为在某种程度上，世界上已经有很多组织比单个人更聪明了。这似乎是一件通常有益于推动人类进步的事情。
Somehow the individual AI systems empower the individual humans and the interaction between those humans to make that collective intelligence machinery that you're referring to smarter. It's not like AI is becoming super intelligent. It's just becoming the engine that's making the collective intelligence primarily human more intelligent. It's educating the humans better. It's making them better informed. It's making them more efficient for them to communicate effectively and debate ideas. Through that process, just making the whole collective intelligence more and more intelligent, maybe faster than the individual AI systems that are trained on human data anyway are becoming.
某种程度上，个体的人工智能系统赋予了个体人类和这些人类之间的互动更多的力量，从而成为你所指的集体智能机器更加聪明的引擎。它不是变得超级聪明了，它只是在成为主要由人类组成的集体智能更加聪明的推动机。它对人类更好地进行教育，使他们更加知情，使他们更能高效地交流和辩论观点。通过这个过程，整个集体智能变得越来越智能化，甚至比那些基于人类数据训练的个别AI系统本身变得更快。
The collective intelligence and human species might outpace the development of AI. There's a balance in here because if a lot of the input that the systems are being trained on is basically coming from feedback from people, then a lot of the development does need to happen in human time. It's not like a machine will just be able to go learn all the stuff about how people think about stuff. There's a cycle to how this needs to work. This is an exciting world we're living in and you're at the forefront of developing.
集体智慧和人类物种可能会超越人工智能的发展。这里存在一个平衡，因为如果系统接受的大部分输入基本上都来自人的反馈，那么很多开发工作确实需要在人类时间内完成。这不像机器只是能够去了解人们如何看待事物的所有信息。这需要一定的循环过程。我们生活在一个令人兴奋的世界中，你正处于开发的最前沿。
One of the ways you keep yourself humble, like we mentioned with Jiu Jitsu, is doing some really difficult challenges, mental and physical. One of those you've done very recently is the Merve Challenge. You've got a really good time. It's a hundred pull-ups, 200 push-ups, 300 squats, and a mile before and a mile after. You've got under 40 minutes on that. What was the hardest part? I think a lot of people were very impressed. It's very impressive time.
像我们在柔术中提到的那样，保持谦虚的一种方法就是挑战自己完成一些非常困难的心理和身体挑战。 最近你完成的其中之一是 Merve 挑战，你的时间非常好。这是一百个引体向上，两百个俯卧撑，三百个深蹲，前后各一英里。你的时间少于40分钟。最难的部分是什么？很多人对你的表现印象深刻，时间非常可观。
How crazy are you? It was the question I'm asking. It wasn't my best time, but anything under 40 minutes I'm happy with. It wasn't your best time. No, I think I've done it a little faster before, but not much. Of my friends, I did not win on Memorial Day. One of my friends did it actually several minutes faster than me.
你有多疯狂？这是我问的问题。那时我并不是最好的状态，但是在40分钟以下我就很满意了。那并不是你最好的时间。是的，我觉得以前我跑得稍微快一些，但并不多。在纪念日那天，我的朋友中我没有获胜。其中一个朋友实际上比我跑得快几分钟。
Just to clear up one thing that I saw a bunch of questions about this on the Internet, there are multiple ways to do the Merve Challenge. There's a partitioned mode where you do sets of pull-ups, push-ups, and squats together. Then there's unpartitioned where you do the 100 pull-ups and then the 200 push-ups and then the 300 squats in serial. Obviously, if you're doing them unpartitioned, then it takes longer to get through the 100 pull-ups because anytime you're resting in between the pull-ups, you're not also doing push-ups and squats. I'm sure my unpartitioned time would be quite a bit slower.
只是想解释一件事情，因为我在网上看到了许多关于Merve挑战的问题。有多种方法可以完成Merve挑战。一种是分区模式，你要连续完成一组引体向上、俯卧撑和深蹲。还有一种是连续模式，你需要先完成100个引体向上，再完成200个俯卧撑和300个深蹲。显然，如果你选择连续模式，完成100个引体向上会耗费更长的时间，因为你在两个引体向上之间休息时，你没有同时做俯卧撑和深蹲。我相信我选择连续模式的挑战时间会慢很多。
I think at the end of this, first of all, I think it's a good way to honor Memorial Day. It's this Lieutenant Murphy basically. This was one of his favorite exercises, and I just try to do it on Memorial Day each year. It's a good workout. I got my older daughters to do it with me this time.
我认为在这个结束时，首先我认为这是纪念阵亡将士节的好方式。这基本上是以穆菲上尉为荣。这是他最喜欢的练习之一，我每年都试图在阵亡将士节做这个练习。这是一次很好的锻炼。这次我让我的大女儿和我一起做了这个练习。
My oldest daughter wants a weight vest because she sees me doing it with a weight vest. I don't know if a seven-year-old should be using a weight vest to do pull-ups, but difficult question a parent must ask themselves. I was like, maybe I can make you a very lightweight vest, but I don't think it was good for this. She basically did a quarter-merf, so she ran a quarter-mile and then did 25 pull-ups, 50 push-ups, and 75 air squats, then ran another quarter-mile and 15 minutes, which I was pretty impressed by in my five-year-old too.
我最大的女儿想要一件负重背心，因为她看到我用负重背心做运动。我不确定一个七岁的孩子是否应该使用负重背心来做引体向上，这是一个让父母自问问题的难题。我觉得也许我可以为你做一件非常轻便的背心，但我不认为它适合这个用途。她基本上完成了四分之一的“默夫”运动，就是跑了四分之一英里，然后做了25个引体向上、50个俯卧撑和75个空气深蹲，然后再跑四分之一英里，总共花了15分钟。我对我的五岁孩子也感到非常印象深刻。
I was excited about that. I'm glad that I'm teaching them the value of physicality. I think a good day for Max, my daughter, is when she gets to go to the gym with me and cranks out a bunch of pull-ups. I love that about her. I think it's good. She's hopefully I'm teaching her some good lessons.
我很兴奋。我很高兴我能教给他们身体力行的价值。我认为对我的女儿Max来说，最美好的一天就是能跟我一起去健身房去完成一堆引体向上的动作。我很喜爱她这方面。我觉得这很好、很有益处。我希望我能教给她一些好的课程。
The broader question here is, given how busy you are, given how much stuff you have gone on in your life, what's the perfect exercise regimen for you to keep yourself happy, to keep yourself productive in your main line of work? I mean, I've, right now, I'm focused most of my workouts on fighting.
这里更广泛的问题是，考虑到您有多忙，您的生活中有多少事情要处理，对于您来说，什么是完美的运动计划，可以让您保持快乐，让您在自己的主要工作领域保持高效？我是说，现在我大部分的锻炼都是为了搏斗而进行的。
So Jujitsu and MMA. I don't know. I mean, maybe if you're professional, you can do that every day. I can't. I just get too many bruises and things that you need to recover from. I do that three to four times a week. And then the other day is I just try to do a mix of things, like just cardio conditioning, strength building, mobility. So you try to do something physical every day? Yeah, I try to. Unless I'm just so tired that I just need to relax, but then I'll still try to go for a walk or something. I mean, even here, I don't know. Have you been on the roof here yet? No.
所以是柔术和综合格斗吗？我不知道。我的意思是，也许如果你是专业的，你可以每天做那些训练。但我不能。我会受伤，需要恢复。我每周做三到四次。其他的几天，我只是尝试做一些混合训练，如有氧运动、增强力量、提高身体机动性等等。所以你每天都会做一些体育锻炼吗？是的，我会尽量做到。除非我太累了需要放松，但是即使这样，我仍会尝试走一走。我是说，这里甚至有屋顶，你去过吗？没有。
We'll go on the roof after the things. But it's like, we designed this building and I put a park on the roof. So that way, that's like my meetings when I'm just doing kind of a one on one or talking to a couple of people. I have a very hard time just sitting. I feel like you get super stiff. It feels really bad. But I don't know, being physical is very important to me. I think it's, I do not believe this gets to the question about AI.
我们会在完成这些事情之后去屋顶上。但是我们设计这栋建筑时，我在屋顶上建了一个公园。这样，我在和别人一对一或是与几个人交流时，就可以在那里开会。我很难就这样坐着不动，感觉会变得非常僵硬，很不舒服。但我认为，保持身体活动对我来说非常重要。我觉得这跟AI无关。
I don't think that a being is just a mind. And I think we're kind of meant to do things and like physically and a lot of the sensations that we feel are connected to that. And I think that that's a lot of what makes you a human is basically having those, having that set of sensations and experiences around that coupled with a mind to reason about them. But I don't know, I think it's important for balance to kind of get out, challenge yourself in different ways, learn different skills, clear your mind.
我认为一个存在不仅仅只有思想。我们存在的目的应该是做事情，享受身体上的体验，很多感官的感受都与此有关。我认为这就是成为人类的重要组成部分，基本上有这些感受和经历，再加上一个思考它们的头脑。但我不知道，为了平衡，尝试不同的事情，学习不同的技能，放松心情，是很重要的。
Do you think AI in order to become super intelligent needs you, I should have a body? It depends on what the goal is. I think that there's this assumption in that question that intelligence should be kind of person like, whereas, as we were just talking about, you can have these greater than single human intelligent organisms like the stock market, which obviously do not have bodies and do not speak a language. And just kind of have their own system. So I don't know, my guess is there will be limits to what a system that is purely an intelligence can understand about the human condition without having the same, not just senses, but our bodies changes, we get older, right?
你认为为了变得超级智能，人工智能需要像我一样有一个身体吗？这取决于目标是什么。我认为在这个问题中有一种假设，即智能应该像人类一样，而正如我们刚刚所谈论的，您可以拥有比单个人类智能更高的组织，如股票市场，它们显然没有身体，也不会说语言，而是拥有自己的系统。因此，我不知道，我的猜测是，在没有拥有与人类相同的身体，不仅是感官，而且我们的身体的变化，我们变老等等，纯粹是智能系统所能理解人类状况的局限性将会有所限制。
And we kind of evolve and I think that those very subtle physical changes just drive a lot of social patterns and behavior around like when you choose to have kids, right? Like just like all these, you know, that's not even subtle. That's a major one, right? But like, you know, how you design things around the house. So yeah, I mean, I think it would, if the goal is to understand people as much as possible, I think that that's trying to model those sensations is probably somewhat important. But I think that there's a lot of value that can be created by having intelligence even that that is separate from that is a separate thing.
我们在某种程度上演化，我认为那些微妙的身体变化会推动很多社会模式和行为，比如选择何时要孩子，以及家居设计之类的事情。所以，如果目的是尽可能地了解人们，我认为模拟这些感觉是相当重要的。但我认为，即使没有这个，智能也可以创造很多价值。
So one of the features of being human is that we're mortal. We die. We've talked about AI a lot about potentially replicas of ourselves. Do you think there will be AI replicas of you and me that persist long after we're gone that family and loved ones can talk to? I think we'll have the capacity to do something like that. And I think one of the big questions that we've had to struggle with in the context of social networks is who gets to make that.
人类的一个特点就是我们会死亡，我们会离开这个世界。我们经常谈论AI可能会复制我们自己。想象一下，你和我能否有AI副本，在我们去世之后一直存在，供家人和亲人与之沟通？我认为我们有能力做到这一点。然而，在社交网络的背景下，我们需要面对的一个大问题是，谁可以做出这个决定。
And you know, my answer to that, you know, in the context of the work that we're doing is that that should be your choice. I don't think anyone should be able to choose to make a lex bot that people can choose to talk to and get to train that. And we have this precedent of making some of these calls where someone can create a page for a lex fan club, but you can't create a page and say that you're lex. Right? So I think that this similarly, I think, I mean, maybe, you know, someone maybe can make a should be able to make an AI that's a lex admirer that someone can talk to you, but I think it should ultimately be your call whether there is a lex AI.
你知道，针对我们正在进行的工作，我的回答是，这应该是你的选择。我不认为任何人都有权选择制作一个Lex聊天机器人，使人们能够选择与之交谈并进行训练。我们有一个先例，某些人可以为Lex粉丝俱乐部创建页面，但你不能创造一个页面并声称你是Lex。所以我认为，同样的，可能有人可以制作一个Lex钦佩者的人工智能，供他人与之交谈，但最终是否有一个Lex AI，我认为应该由你来决定。
Well I'm open sourcing the lex.
我将开源这个词法分析器。意思是，我将公开发布这个词法分析器的代码，允许其他人查看、使用、修改和分发。
So you're a man of faith. What role has faith played in your life and your understanding of the world and your understanding of your own life and your understanding of your work and how your work impacts the world? Yeah, I think that there's a few different parts of this that are relevant. There's sort of a philosophical part and there's a cultural part. And one of the most basic lessons is right at the beginning of Genesis, right? It's like God creates the earth and creates people and creates people in God's image. And there's the question of, you know, what does that mean?
所以，您是一个有信仰的人。信仰在您的生活中，理解世界、理解自己的生活以及了解您的工作以及工作对世界的影响扮演了什么样的角色？是的，我认为这有几个相关的部分。其中有一个是哲学部分，有一个是文化部分。最基本的一课在《创世纪》开始就有讲到，对吧？就是上帝创造了地球，创造了人类，并创造了人类依上帝形象的形态。然后就有一个问题，就是这是什么意思？
And all the only context that you have about God at that point in the Old Testament is that he's who God has created things. So I always thought that like one of the interesting lessons from that is that there's a virtue in creating things that is like whether it's artistic or whether you're building things that are functionally useful for other people. I think that by itself is a good and that kind of drives a lot of how I think about morality and my personal philosophy around like what is a good life, right? I think it's one where you're helping the people around you and you're being a kind of positive creative force in the world that is helping to bring new things into the world, whether they're amazing other people, kids, or just leading to the creation of different things that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. So that's a value for me that matters deeply.
在旧约中，你能了解到的有关上帝的唯一背景是他是创造万物的主。因此，我一直认为从中可以得出一个有趣的教训，即创造事物本身就是一种美德，无论是艺术上的还是为他人创造出有用的事物。我认为这本身是一种优良品质，而且这种品质驱动了我如何思考道德和个人哲学，即一个好的生活是帮助身边的人，成为积极的创造力量，帮助世界创造新的东西，无论是对他人、孩子还是创造不同的不可能存在的事物。因此，这对我来说是一种非常重要的价值观。
And I just love spending time with the kids and trying to impart this value to them. And it's like nothing makes me happier than when I come home from work. And I see my daughter's building legos on the table or something. It's like, all right, I did that when I was a kid. Right? So many other people were doing this. And I hope you don't lose that spirit where when you grow up and you want to just continue building different things no matter what it is, to me that's a lot of what matters. That's the philosophical piece. I think the cultural piece is just about community and values.
我很喜欢和孩子们在一起，并试图向他们传达这种价值观。当我下班回家看到女儿在桌子上建乐高时，这没有什么比这更让我高兴的了。这就像是，没错，我小时候也这样做过。那么多人也在这样做。我希望你们不会失去这种精神，成长后无论想继续建造什么，都会坚持这种想法，这对于我来说是很重要的。这是哲学上的意义。我认为文化的意义在于社区和价值观。
And that part of things I think has just become a lot more important to me since I've had kids. You know, it's almost autopilot when you're a kid. You're in the kind of getting imparted two phase of your life. But I didn't really think about religion that much for a while, you know, I was in college before I had kids. And then I think having kids has this way of really making you think about what traditions you want to impart and how you want to celebrate and like what balance you want in your life. And I'm going to bunch of the questions that you've asked and a bunch of the things that we're talking about.
我认为这部分变得更重要了，因为我有了孩子。你知道，当你还是小孩时，这几乎是自动的。你正处于人生的受传授的两个阶段。但我很长一段时间都没有真正地考虑宗教，你知道，我是在上大学之前生孩子的。然后我认为，有孩子的经历会让你更深入地思考你想要传承哪些传统，你想如何庆祝，以及你希望生活中有哪些平衡。我会回答你提出的一些问题和我们正在谈论的一些事情。
It's the irony of the curtains coming down as we're talking about mortality. Once again, same as last time. This is just the universe works and we are definitely living in this simulation. But go ahead.
这是个讽刺，我们在谈论死亡时，窗帘却下来了。就像上次一样。这只是宇宙的运作模式，我们肯定是生活在这个模拟世界中。但请继续。
I'm community tradition and the values that faith religion is still. A lot of the topics that we've talked about today are around how do you balance, you know, whether it's running a company or different responsibilities with this. I don't know. How do you kind of balance that? And I always also just think that it's very grounding to just believe that there is something that is much bigger than you that is guiding things. That amongst other things gives you a bit of humility as you pursue that spirit of creating that you spoke to creating beauty in the world.
我信仰所在的社区传统和价值观。今天我们谈论的很多话题都围绕着如何平衡，无论是经营公司还是不同的责任。我不知道。你怎么平衡呢？我总是认为，相信有一些比你大得多的东西在指引着事物，这个想法非常扎根。除此之外，当你追求创造美丽的精神时，这种想法还能给你带来一些谦逊。
As Dostoevsky said, beauty will save the world. Mark, I'm a huge fan of yours. Honored to be able to call your friend and I am looking forward to both kicking your ass and you kicking my ass on the mat tomorrow in Jiu Jitsu. This incredible sport and art that we both participate in. Thank you so much for talking today. Thank you for everything you're doing and so many exciting realms of technology and human life. I can't wait to talk to you again in the metaverse. Thank you.
正如陀思妥耶夫斯基所说，美将拯救这个世界。马克，我是你的忠实粉丝，非常荣幸能称你为朋友，并期待明天在我们共同参与的这项令人惊叹的运动和艺术——柔术中，我踢你的屁股，你踢我的屁股。非常感谢您今天的交谈，感谢您在技术和人类生活领域所做的一切令人兴奋的事情。我迫不及待地期待在元宇宙中再次与您交流。谢谢。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Zuckerberg. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from Isaac Asimov.
感谢您收听与马克·扎克伯格的对话。如果您想支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在让我把艾萨克·阿西莫夫的话留给您。
It is change, continuing change, inevitable change that is the dominant factor in society today.
今天社会的主导因素是变化，不断的变化，不可避免的变化。
No sensible decision can be made any longer without taking into account not only the world as it is, but the world as it will be.
现在不考虑未来，任何明智的决策都不能做出。我们需要考虑未来的世界和现在的世界。
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
感谢您的聆听，希望下次能再见到您。