Dr. Sam Harris: Using Meditation to Focus, View Consciousness & Expand Your Mind | Huberman Lab 105
发布时间 2023-01-02 13:00:00 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today my guest is Dr. Sam Harris. Dr. Sam Harris did his undergraduate training in philosophy at Stanford University and then went on to do his doctorate in neuroscience at the University of California at Los Angeles. He is well known as an author who has written about everything from meditation to consciousness, free will, and he holds many strong political views that he's voiced on social media and in the content of various books as they relate to philosophy and neuroscience.
欢迎收听Huberman Lab播客，在这里我们讨论科学以及日常生活中基于科学的方法。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是Dr. Sam Harris。Sam Harris博士在斯坦福大学完成了哲学本科课程，然后在加州大学洛杉矶分校获得了神经科学博士学位。他因著作而闻名，涉及从冥想到意识、自由意志的话题，并且在哲学和神经科学的相关书籍中，以及社交媒体上，表达了许多强烈的政治观点。
During today's episode, I mainly talk to Dr. Harris about his views and practices related to meditation, consciousness, and free will. In fact, he made several important points about what a proper meditation practice can accomplish. Prior to this episode, I thought that meditation was about deliberately changing one's conscious experience in order to achieve things such as deeper relaxation, a heightened sense of focus, or ability to focus generally, elevated memory, and so on. What Sam taught me and what you'll soon learn as well is that while meditation does indeed hold all of those valuable benefits, the main value of a meditation practice, or perhaps the greater value of a meditation practice, is that it doesn't just allow one to change their conscious experience, but it actually can allow a human being to view consciousness itself, that is to understand what the process of consciousness is.
在今天的节目中，我主要与哈里斯博士讨论了他对冥想、意识和自由意志的看法和实践。事实上，他提出了几个关于正确冥想练习的重大观点。在这次节目之前，我认为冥想是为了有意识地改变一个人的意识体验，以达到更深的放松、更强的专注力、增强记忆力等目标。萨姆教给我的，以及你将很快了解到的是，尽管冥想确实具有这些宝贵的好处，但冥想练习的主要价值，或者说更大的价值在于，它不仅能让人改变自己的意识体验，还能使人真正理解意识本身，即理解意识的过程。
And in doing so, to profoundly shift the way that one engages with the world and with oneself in all practices, all environments, and at all times, both in sleep and in waking states. And in that way, making meditation, perhaps the most potent and important portal by which one can access novel ways of thinking and being and viewing one's life experience. We also discussed the so-called mind-body problem and issues of duality and free will. Concepts from philosophy and neuroscience that fortunately thanks to valuable experiments and deep thinking on the part of people like Dr. Sam Harris and others, is now leading people to understand really what free will is and isn't, where the locus of free will likely sits in the brain if it indeed resides in the brain at all, and what it means to be a conscious being and how we can modify our conscious states in ways that allow us to be more functional.
在这样做的过程中，可以深刻地改变一个人与世界以及与自己互动的方式，这种改变适用于所有实践、所有环境以及任何时间，包括睡眠和清醒状态。这样一来，冥想或许变成了一种最强大和重要的途径，让人们可以获取新颖的思维方式，重新审视我们的生活体验。我们还讨论了所谓的心身问题，二元性和自由意志问题。这些概念来自哲学和神经科学领域，幸运的是，得益于像萨姆·哈里斯博士等人的重要实验和深入思考，人们逐渐了解了自由意志的真实情况，可能位于大脑中的哪个位置（如果它真的存在于大脑中），以及作为一个有意识生物意味着什么，以及如何通过改变我们的意识状态使我们变得更具功能性。
We also discussed perception, both visual perception, auditory perception, and especially interesting to me and I think as well, hopefully to you, time perception, which we know is very elastic in the brain. The literal frame rate by which we process our conscious experience can expand and contract dramatically depending on our state of mind and how conscious we are about our state of mind. So we went deep into that topic as well. Today's discussion was indeed an intellectual deep dive into all the topics that I mentioned a few moments ago, but it also included many practical tools. In fact, I pushed Sam to share with us what his specific practices are and how we can all arrive at a clear and better understanding of a meditation practice that we can each and all apply so that we can derive these incredible benefits, not just the ones related to stress and focus and enhanced memory, but the ones that relate to our consciousness that is to our deeper sense of self and to others.
我们也讨论了感知问题，包括视觉感知、听觉感知，尤其是我感兴趣的时间感知。我们知道，时间感知在大脑中是非常有弹性的。我们处理意识体验的帧率会根据我们的心态和对自身意识状态的觉知程度而显著地扩展或收缩。因此，我们对此话题进行了深入探讨。今天的讨论的确是对我之前提到的所有主题的一次智识深潜，同时也包含了许多实用工具。事实上，我特别要求 Sam 和我们分享他具体的练习方式，以及我们如何能够更好地理解一种可以应用的冥想练习，从而获得这些不可思议的好处。这些好处不仅限于缓解压力、提高注意力和增强记忆力，还与我们意识相关，即与我们更深层次的自我感知和对他人的感知有关。
Several times during today's episode, I mentioned the waking up app. The waking up app was developed by Sam Harris, but I want to emphasize that my mention of the app is in no way a paid promotional. Rather, the waking up app is one that I've used for some period of time now and find very, very useful. I have family members that also use it, other staff members here, the Huberman Lab podcast use it because we find it to be such a powerful tool. Sam has generously offered Huberman Lab podcast listeners a 30 day completely free trial of the waking up app. If any of you want to try it, you can simply go to wakingup.com slash Huberman to get that 30 day free trial.
在今天的节目中，我多次提到了Waking Up应用程序。这个应用由山姆·哈里斯开发，但我想强调一下，我提到这个应用绝对不是付费推广。实际上，我已经使用这个应用有一段时间了，觉得它非常有用。我的家人和这里的其他工作人员以及Huberman Lab播客的成员也在用这个应用，因为我们都觉得它是一个非常强大的工具。山姆非常慷慨地为Huberman Lab播客的听众提供了Waking Up应用30天的免费试用。如果你们中的任何人想尝试，可以直接访问wakingup.com/Huberman获取30天的免费试用。
During today's discussion, we didn't just talk about meditation, consciousness and free will. We also talked about psychedelics, both their therapeutic applications for the treatment of things like depression and PTSD, but also the use of psychedelics and we discuss Sam's experiences with psychedelics as they relate to expanding one's consciousness. I also asked Sam about his views and practices related to social media, prompted in no small part by his recent voluntary decision to close down his Twitter account. So we talked about his rationale for doing that, how he feels about doing that. And I think you'll find that to be very interesting as well. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.
在今天的讨论中，我们不仅谈到了冥想、意识和自由意志。我们还讨论了迷幻药，包括它们在治疗抑郁症和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）等方面的治疗应用，以及使用迷幻药扩展意识的问题。我们还讨论了Sam在使用迷幻药扩展意识方面的经验。我也询问了Sam关于他对社交媒体的看法和实践，部分原因是他最近自愿关闭了推特账户。因此，我们探讨了他这样做的理由以及他的感受。我认为你会觉得这非常有趣。在开始之前，我想强调，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是分开的。然而，它是我为公众提供无成本科学信息和科学工具的愿望和努力的一部分。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods and behaviors affect your health by giving you real-time feedback using a continuous glucose monitor. One of the most important factors in your immediate and long-term health are your blood sugar levels. And not just your overall blood sugar levels, but your blood sugar levels throughout the day in response to different foods you eat, to fasting if you're into fasting, to exercise, and so forth. I started using levels some time ago in order to figure out how different foods impact my blood sugar levels. And indeed, it does that very well.
遵循这一主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Levels。Levels 是一个项目，它通过使用持续血糖监测仪，实时反馈让你了解不同食物和行为如何影响你的健康。影响你即时和长期健康的重要因素之一是你的血糖水平。不仅仅是你的总体血糖水平，还有你在一天中对不同食物、禁食（如果你喜欢禁食）、锻炼等反应时的血糖水平。我在一段时间前开始使用 Levels，以便了解不同食物对我血糖水平的影响。确实，它在这方面表现得非常好。
It allowed me to see how certain foods really spike my blood sugar and others keep it more level. And in particular, how foods that I eat after exercise can help raise my blood glucose just enough, but not so much that then I get a crash two or three hours later, which was happening before I started using levels. I've made certain adjustments to my diet. I can now eat post-exercise and still have plenty of energy throughout the day without any issue. It also has helped me understand how different behaviors impact my blood glucose levels. If you're interested in learning more about levels and trying a continuous glucose monitor yourself, go to levels.link-slash-huberman. Again, that's levels.link-spelled-li-nk-slash-huberman.
这让我了解到某些食物如何真正使我的血糖飙升，而其他食物则能保持血糖平稳。特别是在锻炼后，我吃的食物能帮助我的血糖上升到一个合适的水平，不会像我使用 Levels 前那样两三个小时后出现血糖骤降的情况。我对饮食做了一些调整，现在可以在锻炼后吃东西，并且整天都有充足的精力，没有任何问题。这也让我理解到不同的行为是如何影响我的血糖水平的。如果你有兴趣了解更多关于 Levels 的信息，并想亲自尝试持续血糖监测仪，可以访问 levels.link/huberman。再次提醒，是 levels.link/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by WOOP. WOOP is a fitness wearable device that tracks your daily activity and sleep, but goes beyond activity and sleep tracking to provide real-time feedback on how to adjust your training and sleep schedules in order to feel and perform better. Six months ago, I started working with WOOP as a member of their Scientific Advisory Council as a way to help WOOP advance their mission of unlocking human performance. As a WOOP user, I've experienced firsthand the health benefits of their technology.
今天的节目也由WOOP赞助。WOOP是一种健身穿戴设备，能够跟踪您的日常活动和睡眠情况，但不仅限于此，它还能提供实时反馈，帮助您调整训练和睡眠计划，以便让您感觉更好、表现更佳。六个月前，我开始以其科学顾问委员会成员的身份与WOOP合作，目的是帮助他们推进解锁人类表现潜力的使命。作为WOOP的用户，我亲身体验到了其技术带来的健康益处。
It's clear based on quality research that WOOP can inform you how well you're sleeping, how to change your sleep habits, how to change your activity habits, even how to modify different aspects of your nutrition, exercise, sleep, and lifestyle in order to maximize your mental health, physical health, and performance. Whether or not you're an athlete or you're exercising simply for health, WOOP can really help you understand how your body functions under different conditions and how to really program your schedule, nutrition, and exercise, and many other factors of your life in order to really optimize your health and performance, including your cognition.
根据高质量的研究显示，WOOP 可以帮助你了解自己的睡眠质量，并指导你如何改变睡眠习惯、活动习惯，甚至是调整营养、锻炼、睡眠和生活方式的各个方面，从而最大化你的心理健康、身体健康和表现。不论你是否是运动员，或只是为了健康而锻炼，WOOP 都能帮助你理解身体在不同情况下的机能，并帮助你合理安排日程、饮食和锻炼等生活中的诸多因素，以真正优化你的健康和表现，包括认知能力。
If you're interested in trying WOOP, you can go to joinwoopspeldwhop.com-slash-huberman. That's joinwoop.com-slash-huberman today and get your first month free. Today's episode is also brought to us by 8-Sleep. 8-Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've talked many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the fundamental layer of mental health, physical health, and performance.
如果你对尝试WOOP感兴趣，你可以访问 joinwoopspeldwhop.com/huberman。今天就去 joinwoop.com/huberman 注册，并享受第一个月的免费优惠。今天的节目也由8-Sleep赞助。8-Sleep生产具有降温、加热和睡眠追踪功能的智能床垫保护套。我在这个播客上多次谈到，睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础层。
Now, one of the key things for getting a great night's sleep every single night is to optimize the temperature of your sleeping environment. Put simply, in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature needs to drop by about 1-3 degrees and waking up, on the other hand, involves a heating of your body by about 1-3 degrees. With 8-Sleep, you can tune the temperature of your mattress cover or mattress to be cooler or hotter, depending on whether or not you tend to run too hot or too cold. You can even vary it across the night so that you can access the best deep sleep early in the night, the so-called REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep that's more pronounced in the later half of the night, and doing so really get your sleep optimized, not just in terms of duration, but in terms of quality and the overall architecture of your sleep.
现在，要每晚都能得到良好的睡眠，关键之一是优化睡眠环境的温度。简单来说，要入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温需要降低大约1-3度；而醒来时，体温则需要升高大约1-3度。通过使用8-Sleep，您可以根据自己的体感调整床垫或床垫套的温度，变得更凉或更热。您甚至可以在一整晚中调整温度，这样可以在早期阶段进入最佳的深度睡眠，即所谓的快速眼动睡眠（REM），这种睡眠在夜晚后半段更明显。这样一来，您的睡眠不仅在时间上得到了优化，还在质量和整体结构上得到了提升。
This has a profound influence on your alertness focus mood and many other important factors throughout the day. If you'd like to try 8-Sleep, you can go to 8Sleep.com slash Huberman to save up to $150 off their pod three cover. 8-Sleep currently ships to the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's 8Sleep.com slash Huberman. Huberman Lab podcast is proud to announce that we are now partnered with momentous supplements because momentous supplements are of the very highest quality, they ship internationally, and they have single ingredient formulations.
这对你的警觉性、专注度、情绪以及一天中许多其他重要因素有着深远的影响。如果你想尝试8-Sleep产品，可以访问8Sleep.com斜杠Huberman，节省高达$150的pod three cover费用。8-Sleep目前能运送到美国、加拿大、英国、部分欧盟国家和澳大利亚。再次说明，是8Sleep.com斜杠Huberman。Huberman Lab播客很自豪地宣布我们现在与Momentous补充剂合作，因为Momentous补充剂拥有极高的品质，可以国际配送，并且是单一成分配方。
If you'd like to access the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous spelled OUS, so livemomentous.com slash Huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. Sam Harris. Dr. Sam Harris. We're just talking about this. You are indeed a doctor. I cannot save your life, but I might save your non-existent soul if we talk long enough. Well, neither of us are clinicians, but we are both brain explorers from the different perspectives, some overlapping. And I'm really excited to have this conversation. I've been listening to your voice for many years, learning from you for many years.
如果你想获取 Huberman Lab 播客中提到的补充剂，你可以访问网站 livemomentous.com/huberman。接下来是我与 Sam Harris 博士的讨论。Sam Harris 博士，正如我们刚刚谈到的，你确实是一位博士。虽然我无法拯救你的生命，但如果我们聊得够久，也许我能拯救你那并不存在的灵魂。虽然我们都不是临床医生，但我们都是以不同视角探索大脑的人，有些观点也会有重叠。我非常期待这次对话，多年来一直在倾听和学习您的声音。
And I'd be remiss if I didn't say that my father, who's also a scientist, is an enormous fan of your waking up app and has spent a lot of time over the last few years. He's in his late 70s. He's in almost 80. He's a theoretical physicist walking to the park near his apartment and spending time meditating with the app, or sometimes separate from the app, but using the same sorts of meditations in his head. Yeah. So he kind of toggles back and forth. And even I shouldn't say even, but yes, even in his late 70s has reported that it has significantly shifted his awareness of self and his conscious experience of things happening in and around him.
我不能不提到，我的父亲也是一位科学家，他非常喜欢你的唤醒应用。过去几年，他花了大量时间使用这个应用。他已经快80岁了，是一位理论物理学家，经常走路去公寓附近的公园，在那里用这个应用冥想，有时也会不依赖应用，而是使用类似的冥想方法。他在不同方法之间来回切换。即使在他70多岁的时候，他也表示，这显著改变了他对自我和周围发生事情的意识体验。
And he was somebody who I think already saw himself as a pretty aware person thinking about quantum mechanics and the rest. So thank you from him, indirectly. I thank you from me now, directly. And I really want to use that as a way to frame up. What I think is one of the more interesting questions, and not just science and philosophy and psychology, but all of life, which is what is this thing that we call a self? As far as I know, we have not localized the region in the brain that can entirely account for our perception of self. There are areas, of course, that regulate proprioception, our awareness of where our limbs are in space, maybe even our awareness of where we are in physical space.
他已经是一个相当有自我意识的人，思考着量子力学和其他事情。我代他向你表示感谢，同时我也直接向你表示感谢。我很想以此引出一个我认为非常有趣的问题，这不仅涉及科学、哲学、心理学，还关乎整个生命，那就是：我们称之为“自我”的这个东西到底是什么？据我所知，我们尚未在大脑中找到一个完全可以解释我们自我感知的区域。当然，有些区域负责调节本体感觉，即我们对自己四肢在空间中位置的感知，甚至可能包括我们在物理空间中的位置感知。
There are such circuits that we both know. But when we talk about sense of self, I have to remember this kind of neuroscience 101 thing that we always say, you know, when you teach memory, you say, you wake up every morning, and you remember who you are, you know who you are. Most people do. Even if they lack memory systems in the brain for whatever reason, pretty much everyone seems to know who they are. What are your thoughts on what that whole thing is about? Do we come into the world feeling that way? I appreciate answers from the perspective of any field.
我们彼此都了解一些这样的机制。但当我们谈论自我意识时，我总是要提醒自己有关基础神经科学的一个基本原则，比如在教授记忆时，我们常常会说，你每天早上醒来时，都能记得自己是谁，知道自己是谁。大多数人都是这样的。即便因为某些原因脑中缺乏记忆系统，几乎每个人似乎都知道自己是谁。你对这个现象有什么看法？我们是否天生就有这样的感觉？我很想听听来自任何领域的见解。
Yeah. Can you give me neuroscience, of course? Yeah, well, big question. I mean, the problem is we use the term self in so many different ways, right? And there's one sense of that term, which is the target of meditation, and it's the target of deconstruction by the practice and by any surrounding philosophy. So you'll hear, and you'll hear it from me, that this self is an illusion, right? And there's a psychological freedom that can be experienced on the other side of discovering it to be an illusion.
好的。你能给我讲讲神经科学吗？当然可以。但这是个大问题。我们使用“自我”这个词的方式有很多种，对吧？其中有一种“自我”的意思是冥想的目标，通过练习和相关哲学对其进行解构。所以你会听到，比如从我这里听到，这种“自我”是一种幻觉。认识到这是幻觉后，你会体验到一种心理上的自由。
And some people don't like that framing. Some people would insist that it's not so much an illusion, but it's a construct and it's not what it seems, right? But it's not that every use of the term self is illegitimate, and there are certain types of selves that are not illusory. I mean, I'm not saying that people are illusions. I'm not saying that you can't talk about yourself as distinct, yourself as a whole person, and you know, as psychological continuity with your past experience, as being distinct from the person and psychological continuity of some other person, right? Obviously, we have to be able to conserve those data. It's not fundamentally mysterious that you're going to wake up tomorrow morning, still being psychologically continuous with your past and not my past, right? And, you know, if we swapped lives, you know, that would, you know, demand some explanation.
有些人不喜欢那种表达方式。有些人会坚持认为，这不是一种幻觉，而是一种建构，并不像看上去那样，对吧？但这并不是说每次使用“自我”这个词都是不当的，有些类型的自我是存在并非虚幻的。我不是在说人是幻觉。我不是在说你不能把自己看作一个独立的整体，把自己看作一个有心理连续性的个体，与过去的经历有联系，并与其他人的人和心理连续性区分开来，对吧？显然，我们必须能够保存这些数据。你明天早上醒来时，心理上仍然和过去连续，而不是突然变成了我过去的经历，这并不是一个根本上神秘的事情。如果我们互换生活，那显然需要某种解释。
So the illusoryness of the self doesn't cut against any of those obvious facts. So the sense of self that is illusory, and again, we might want to talk about self and other modes because there's just a lot of interest there psychologically, and ultimately, scientifically, the thing that doesn't exist, certainly doesn't exist as it seems, and I would want to argue that it actually is just a proper illusion, is the sense that there is a subject interior to experience, in addition to experience.
因此，自我的幻觉性并不否定这些显而易见的事实。因为这种虚幻的自我感——我们可能想从心理学和科学角度讨论自我和其他模式，因为这方面确实很有趣——实际上并不存在，至少不像它看起来的那样存在。我主张认为，它实际上只是一个合理的幻觉，即在体验之外还有一个内部主体的感觉，这种主体并不存在。
So most people feel like they're having an experience of the world, and they're having an experience of their bodies in the world, and in addition to that, they feel that they are a subject internal to the body, very likely in the head. Most people feel like they're behind their face as a kind of locus of awareness and thought and intention, and that it's almost like you're a passenger inside your body. You know, most people don't feel identical to their bodies, and they can imagine, and this is sort of the origin, the psychological origin, the folk psychological origin of a sense of that there might be a soul that could survive the death of the body.
大多数人感觉自己在体验这个世界，同时也在体验身体在世界中的存在。此外，他们还感到自己是身体内部的一个主体，通常认为这个主体位于头部。大多数人觉得自己好像在面部后面，这是意识、思考和意图的集中点，就好像自己是身体内部的一个乘客。大多数人不认为自己和身体完全一致，他们能够想象，这种想象实际上是一种心理上的起源，是民间心理学关于灵魂可能在肉体死亡后仍然存在的观念的起源。
I mean, most people are what my friend Paul Bloom calls common sense dualists, right? The default expectation seems to be that whatever the relationship between the mind and the body, there's this, there's some promise of separability there, right? And whenever you really push hard on the science side and say, well, no, the mind is really just what the brain is doing, that begins to feel more and more counterintuitive to people, and there still seems some residual mystery that, you know, at death, maybe something is going to lift off the brain and go elsewhere, right?
我的意思是，大多数人都是我朋友保罗·布鲁姆称之为常识性的二元论者，对吧？他们默认认为，无论心灵和身体之间存在哪种关系，它们都有可能是可以分离的，对吗？当你在科学方面深入探讨，并说心灵其实只是大脑的活动时，这种说法对人们来说越来越不符合直觉。似乎仍然存在一些神秘之处，例如在死亡时，可能会有某种东西从大脑中升腾并去往别的地方，是吧？
So there's a sense of dualism that many people have, and obviously that's supported by many religious beliefs, but this feeling, it's a very peculiar starting point, the people feel that, you know, they don't feel identical to their experience, right? As a matter of experience, they feel like they're on the edge of experience, somehow appropriating it from the side, you're kind of on the edge of the world, and the world is out there.
许多人都有一种二元论的感觉，而且显然这种感觉受到许多宗教信仰的支持。不过，这种感觉本身是一个非常独特的起点，人们感到他们并不完全等同于自己的经历。实际上，他们感到自己似乎处在经历的边缘，以某种方式从旁观者的角度感受。就像是你处于世界的边缘，而世界就在外面。
Your body is, is in some sense, an object in the world, which you, you know, it's different from the world, you know, the boundary of your skin is still meaningful, you can sort of loosely control your body. I mean, you can't control, you can control your gross, you know, and subtle, you know, voluntary motor movements, but you can't, you're not controlling everything your body is doing, you're not controlling your heartbeat and your, you know, your hormonal secretions and all of that.
在某种意义上，你的身体是世界中的一个物体。你知道，它与外界有所不同，你的皮肤边界还是很有意义的，你可以大致控制你的身体。我的意思是，你可以控制你的一些主动的运动行为，比如大动作和小动作，但是你不能控制身体的所有活动。你无法控制你的心跳或者荷尔蒙的分泌等这些无意识的生理活动。
And so there's a lot that's going on that is in the dark for you, and then you, you, you give someone an instruction to meditate, say, and you say, okay, well, let's examine all of this from the first person side. Let's look for this thing, you're calling I, and again, I is not identical to the body. People feel like their hands are out there, and they're good, when they're going to meditate, they're going to close their eyes very likely.
有很多事情对你来说是未知的，然后你给某人一个指示，比如要冥想，你说，好吧，让我们从第一人称的角度来检查这一切。寻找这个你称之为“我”的东西，而“我”和身体并不完全一样。人们会感觉自己的手就在那儿，当他们要冥想时，很可能会闭上眼睛。
And now they're going to pay attention to something, they're going to pay attention to the breath or sounds. And it's from the point of view of being a locus of attention that is now aiming attention strategically at an object like the breath, that there's this dualism that is set up. And ultimately, the ultimate promise of meditation, I mean, there are really two levels at which you could be interested in meditation.
现在，他们将注意到某件事情，比如呼吸或声音。从注意力的角度来看，他们会有意识地将注意力集中在某个对象上，比如呼吸，这就建立了一种二元性。最终，冥想的最大承诺在于，你可以在两个层面上对冥想产生兴趣。
One is, you know, very straightforward and remedial and non-paradoxical and very well subscribed. And it's, it's the usual set of claims about all the benefits you're going to get for meditation. So you're going to lower your stress and you're going to increase your focus and you're going to, you know, stave off cortical thinning and others, all kinds of good things that science is saying meditation will give you. And none of that entails really drilling down on this paradoxical claim that the self is an illusion or anything else of that sort.
这段话的大意是：一种观点是非常直接、基础且毫无矛盾的，并且被广泛接受。它通常包括了一系列关于冥想好处的说法，如降低压力、提高注意力、延缓大脑皮层变薄等科学证明冥想能够带来的种种益处。这些说法中没有深入探讨“自我是一种幻觉”或其他类似的矛盾观点。
But from my point of view, the real purpose of meditation and its real promise is not in this long list of benefits. And I'm not discounting any of those, though, you know, the science for many of them is quite provisional. It's in this deeper claim that if you look for this thing you're calling I, if you look for the sense that there's a thinker in addition to the mirror rising of the next thought, say, you won't find that thing. And and you can, what's more, you cannot find it in a way that's conclusive and that matters, right?
但在我看来，冥想的真正目的和承诺并不在于那些长长的好处清单。我并不是说这些好处不重要，只不过很多研究仍在初步阶段。冥想的更深层次意义在于，如果你去寻找那个被称为“我”的东西，去寻找除了思想的自然浮现之外还有个思考者的感觉，你会发现找不到这样一个东西。而且，这种找不到是有力的并且意义深远。
And it has a, there's a host of benefits that follow from that discovery, which are quite a bit deeper and more interesting than engaging meditation on the side of its benefits, you know, de-stressing, increasing focus and all the rest. I have a number of questions related to what you just said. And first of all, I agree that the evidence that meditation can improve focus, reduce stress, etc. It's there. It's not an enormous pile of evidence, but it's growing.
这项发现带来了很多好处，这些好处比仅仅关注冥想带来的减压、提高注意力等要深刻得多。我对你刚才提到的内容有一些问题。首先，我同意有证据表明冥想可以提高注意力、减少压力等。虽然目前证据数量不算特别庞大，但正在不断增加。
And I think that, especially for some of the shorter meditations, which I these days view more as perceptual exercises, you know, talked about this on the podcast before, but for those that haven't heard of before about, you know, perception, you can have extra-oception extending things beyond the confines of your skin and interoception, which also includes the surfaces of the skin, but everything inward. And meditation through eyes closed typically involving some sort of attentional spotlighting, something we'll get into to more interoceptive versus extra-oceptive events, etc., including thoughts.
我认为，尤其是对于一些较短的冥想练习，我现在更倾向于将其视为感知练习。我以前在播客中谈到过这个，但是为了那些可能没听过的人，我解释一下：感知可以分为外感知和内感知。外感知是指将我们的感知扩展到皮肤之外的事物，而内感知包括皮肤表面及其内部的一切。通常，通过闭上眼睛进行冥想，会涉及某种注意力聚焦，这是我们会深入探讨的，包括如何关注内感知与外感知事件等，包括思考。
And so I think of at a basic level meditation as a somewhat of a perceptual exercise, you can tell me where you disagree there. And I would expect and hope that you would. But I would like to just touch on this idea that you brought up, because it's such an interesting one of this idea that our bodies are containers and that we are somehow ourselves as passengers within those containers.
我认为，从基本层面上来说，冥想可以被看作是一种感知上的练习。如果你有不同意见，请告诉我，我希望听到你的看法。我想讨论一下你提到的一个有趣观点，那就是我们的身体是容器，而我们自己则像是这些容器中的乘客。
That's certainly been my experience. And the image that I have is of, as you say that, is of myself or of people out there that sit a few centimeters below the surface, or that sit entirely in their head. And of course, the brain and body are connected through the nervous system. I think sometimes a brain is used to replace the nervous system, and that can get us into trouble in terms of coming up with real real directions and definitions.
这确实是我的经验。而且当你这么说的时候，我脑海中浮现出的画面是我自己，或者是那些坐在水面几厘米下方的人，或者完全生活在他们头脑中的人。当然，大脑和身体是通过神经系统连接的。我认为有时候大脑会被用来代替神经系统，这可能会在寻找具体方向和定义时让我们陷入困境。
But the point is that there is something special about the real estate in the head. I think as much as my laboratory and many other scientists are really interested in brain body connections through the nervous system, another organ systems that the nervous system binds, that if you cut off all my limbs, I'm going to be different, but I'm fundamentally still Andrew. Whereas if we were to lesion a couple of square millimeters out of my parietal cortex, it's an open question as to whether or not I would still seem as much like Andrew to other people into myself, even.
重点是，大脑中的“精神地产”有其独特之处。我和我的实验室，以及很多其他科学家一样，对神经系统与身体之间的连接非常感兴趣，以及神经系统与其他器官系统的关联。即便如果你切掉我所有的四肢，我会有所不同，但我从根本上仍然是Andrew。相反，如果我们在我的顶叶皮层切除几平方毫米，那么我看起来是否还是原来的Andrew，这对我自己和他人来说都可能是个未知数。
And so there is something fundamentally different about the real estate in the cranial vault. You can even remove both of my eyes. I'd still be Andrew. And those are two pieces of my central nervous system that are fundamental to my daily life. But I'd still be me. Whereas, and this doesn't, I think, just apply to memory systems. I mean, I think there are reasons of the frontal cortex that when destroyed, have been shown to modify personality and self-perception in dramatic ways.
所以，颅腔里的"地皮"有一些根本的不同。即使你摘掉我的两只眼睛，我仍然是安德鲁。眼睛是我神经系统中对日常生活非常重要的两个部分，但我依然会是我自己。然而，我认为这不仅仅适用于记忆系统。例如，破坏大脑的额叶皮层可能会以惊人的方式改变一个人的性格和自我认知。
So it's sort of obvious point once it's made, but I do think it's worth highlighting because there does seem to be something special about being in the head. The other thing is that sitting a few centimeters below the surface or riding in this container makes sense to me, except I wonder if you've ever experienced a shift as I have when something very extreme happens.
一旦指出这一点，它就显得有些显而易见，但我认为值得强调一下，因为呆在头脑中的确有其特殊之处。另一点是，坐在离表面几厘米的地方或者在这个容器中行进对我来说是合理的，然而我想知道你是否也曾经历过如我般的转变，当有一些极端情况发生时。
Let's use the negative example of, you know, all of a sudden you're in a fear state. All of a sudden, it feels as if your entire body is you or as me. And now I need to get this thing, the whole container and me to some place of safety in whatever form. This is also true, I think, in ecstatic states. You can feel really when people say embodied, I wonder whether or not we normally oscillate below the surface of our body.
让我们用一个负面的例子来说，比如，突然之间你感到恐惧。突然之间，你感觉整个身体就是你自己。现在你需要把这个整体，包括你自己，带到一个安全的地方，不管那是以什么形式呈现的。我认为，这种情况在狂喜状态下也会发生。当人们说感到"身心合一"时，我在想我们平时是否在自己身体的表层以下游弋。
And when I say oscillate, I mean, in neural terms, I mean, maybe our sensory experience is not truly at the bodily surface, but sits below the bodily surface. more at the level of organ systems and within our head. And then certain things that jolt us our autonomic nervous system into heightened states bring us into states of, you know, bring us closer to the surface and therefore include all of us. Again, I don't want to take us down a mechanistic description of something that doesn't exist. But does any of that resonate in terms of how you are thinking about or describing the self?
当我说“震荡”时，我是指从神经角度来说。也许我们的感官体验并不真正发生在身体表面，而是在身体表面之下。在更接近于器官系统和我们大脑内部的层面上。当某些事情让我们的自主神经系统进入到一个高度激活状态时，会把我们带到更接近表面的状态，因此让我们全身都感受到。我并不是要用机械的方式去描述不存在的东西。但这是否与你对自我的思考或描述有所共鸣呢？
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot there. First on the point of the brain being, you know, the locus of what we are as minds. Yeah, I mean, there are people who will insist that sort of the whole nervous system has to be thought of as they will be talking about our emotional life and you know, the the the the the insula's connection to the gut and you just said that the sense of self extends beyond the brain. But I totally take your point that a brain transplant is a coherent idea and you would expect to go with the brain rather than with the viscera.
好的，好的，这里有很多内容。首先关于大脑是我们作为心灵存在的中心这一点。是的，我的意思是，有些人会坚持认为整个神经系统都应该被考虑在内，他们会谈论我们的情感生活，比如大脑岛与肠道的联系，就像你刚才说的，自我意识超越了大脑本身。但我完全理解你的观点，即大脑移植是一个可以理解的概念，你会期望跟随大脑，而不是内脏。
And so in that sense, we really are the old philosophical thought experiment of being a brain in a vat. I mean, we essentially are already, you know, the vat is our skull and we're, you know, virtually in that situation. The horrible movie, I'm sorry, I can't help but interrupt when I was a teenager, my sister and I used to go to the movies every once in a while. We trade off who could pick the movie. And she took me to see once the movie boxing, Helena, the David Lynch film where he amputates the limbs of a woman who he's obsessed by and keeps her. It's a really horrible film.
从某种意义上来说，我们实际上就是哲学中的那个思想实验——置身于培养皿中的大脑。也就是说，我们基本上已经如此，培养皿就是我们的颅骨，我们实际上就在那种情况下。我忍不住要插一句，很糟糕的一部电影。当我还是个青少年的时候，我和姐姐偶尔会去看电影，我们会轮流选择要看的电影。有一次她带我去看了《盒装海伦娜》，那是一部大卫·林奇执导的电影，讲的是一个男人因为痴迷于一个女人而将她的四肢截去并把她留在身边。这是一部非常糟糕的电影。
And about 20 minutes into it, my sister just turned to me and said, I'm so sorry. And the question there and was whether or not too sibling should actually persist in a movie like that. We decided to persist in the movies so that we could laugh about it later. But it was rather disturbing. I don't recommend the movie nor do I recommend seeing it with a sibling. But in that movie, the woman, he takes her as a container and restricts her movement, right? Quite sadistic and horrible thing really.
大约看了20分钟时，我妹妹转向我说：“很抱歉。”当时的问题是，兄妹俩是否应该继续看这样的电影。我们决定坚持看下去，以便以后可以一起笑谈这件事。但这电影实在令人不安。我不推荐这部电影，也不建议和兄妹一起观看。在电影中，那名女子受到束缚和限制，这真是一件相当病态和可怕的事情。
David Lynch, interesting mind perhaps. But the idea was that was to question how much of the person persists in the absence of their ability to move, et cetera. Could there be love? Could there be these other affections? Anyway, a rather extreme example. But one that I that still haunts me in my tourism, thinking about still.
大卫·林奇，也许是个很有趣的人。不过，这个想法是探讨在一个人失去行动能力等情况下，他们的自我能保留多少。是否还能有爱？还能有其他的情感吗？无论如何，这是一个相当极端的例子。但在我漫游思考时，这个例子仍然让我感到困扰。
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so just to follow that point, there's a lot about us that we don't have access to unless we enact it physically. Like, if I ask you, do you still know how to ride a bike? Right? There's no place in your memory where you can inspect, but you're just sitting in your chair that you've retained the knowledge of how to ride a bike. Like it's a procedural memory is different from semantic or episodic memory. If I asked you, do you know your address? Yes, you can recall your address just sitting there.
是的，是的。接着这个观点来说，我们很多记忆是需要通过身体去实践才能接触到的。比如说，如果我问你，你还会骑自行车吗？在你的记忆中并没有一个地方可以让你坐在椅子上回忆起这个技能。骑自行车是一种程序性记忆，它不同于语义记忆或情节记忆。如果我问你，你知道你的地址吗？你可以直接坐在那里回忆出你的地址。
But if you if you had had a micro stroke that neatly dissected out your ability to ride a bike, you know, and left everything else intact, you might think you could ride a bike, but suddenly you stand up next to one and you have no idea what to do with it. And that would be a discovery that would only happen if you were motorically engaged with that, you know, object. And I'm sure there's, you know, we could probably come up with a hundred things about us that really seem core to us and we, and unnoticeppable for our, you know, from our, you know, personhood, which seemed to only, you know, only get invoked when we're, you know, out there moving in the world and, you know, we have limbs, et cetera.
但是，如果你曾经经历过一次微小的中风，这次中风精准地剥夺了你骑自行车的能力，而其他能力却完好无损，你可能会以为自己可以骑车，但当你站在自行车旁边的时候，却突然发现自己不知道该如何操作。这种情况只有在你与这辆车进行身体互动时才会被发现。我相信，对于我们自己来说，可能还有一百件类似的事情，这些事情看似是我们核心的一部分，平时我们并不注意到它们。只有当我们在外面活动，用自己的四肢行动时，这些能力才会被唤醒。
And, but yeah, no, it's the seat of, of consciousness. I mean, the right framework to talk about all of this, from my point of view, is consciousness and its contents, right? So we have consciousness, the fact that there's something that is like to be us, right? The fact that the world and our internal experience is illuminated that it has a qualitative character. And then there's the question of what is that qualitative character? What is it, you know, what kinds of information do we have access to? What does it feel like to be us? How do, how do different states of arousal change that? So you talked about fear? Yeah, I mean fear can change a lot of things, but and, you know, various neurological deficits or, you know, you can add drugs to the mix. You add psychedelics that you radically transform the contents of consciousness.
好的，不过，对，我的意思是，这实际上是意识的核心。从我的观点来看，谈论这一切的正确框架是意识及其内容。我们拥有意识，这意味着有某种独特的存在体验。我们的外部世界和内心体验都有一种特殊的性质。这就引出一个问题，这种性质是什么？我们可以接触到什么样的信息？作为我们，感觉是什么样的？不同的唤醒状态又如何改变这种感觉？比如你提到恐惧，是的，恐惧会改变很多事情，还有各种神经系统的缺陷，或者你可以加入药物因素，尤其是迷幻药，它们会彻底改变意识的内容。
From my point of view, consciousness itself is simply the, the cognizance, the awareness that is the, the flood lights by which any of that stuff appears, right? So consciousness doesn't change, but its contents change. And to come back to meditation for a second, many people think meditation is about changing the contents of consciousness. You know, there's some, some contents you want to get rid of, like anxiety, other contents you want to, to encourage, like, calm and, you know, unconditional love or, you know, some other, you know, classically pleasant pro-social emotion. And that's all fine, that's all possible. But the real, you know, wisdom of, you know, the 2000 year old wisdom of meditation, it really is the, you know, the chewy center of the, the toasty pop is a recognition of what consciousness itself is always already like, regardless of the contents and the changes in contents.
从我的角度来看，意识本身就是一种认知或觉察，它就像探照灯一样，让各种事物显现。意识本身不会改变，但其内容会变化。回到冥想这个话题，许多人认为冥想是为了改变意识的内容，有些内容你可能想要摆脱，比如焦虑，而有些内容你希望能够培养，比如平静、无条件的爱或其他一些典型的积极情绪。这些目标都很好且可以实现，但冥想的真正智慧在于认识到意识本身的本质，这种本质是恒久不变的，不受内容及其变化的影响。这是冥想两千年智慧的核心所在。
And this is why, and then what we might talk about this, but this is why they're mutually compatible psychedelics and meditation from here somewhat orthogonal because psychedelics is all about making wholesale changes to the contents of consciousness. And, and there's a, you know, some wonderful consequences of doing that. There can be some heroin and terrifying consequences of doing that. But generally speaking, I think, you know, you used wisely, they can be incredibly valuable and, and the therapeutic potential, there's enormous. But the crucial disjunction here is that there really is something to recognize about ordinary waking consciousness, that the consciousness that's compatible with my driving a car to get here on time, right? You know, you don't have to, you don't have to have the pyro techniques of being on LSD to see the, the, the, the, to transcend the central illusion that I'm saying is, is the thing to be transcendent, which is the sense that there is a duality between subject and object in every moment of experience.
这就是为什么迷幻药和冥想是相互兼容的，尽管在某种程度上它们是正交的，因为迷幻药主要是关于对意识内容进行全面的改变。这种改变可以带来一些奇妙的结果，也可能带来恐怖的后果。但总的来说，我认为如果明智地使用，它们可以非常有价值，具有巨大的治疗潜力。不过，这里的关键区别在于，我们确实需要认识到普通清醒意识中的某些东西，例如使我能准时开车到达这里的意识状态。你不需要服用迷幻药的花哨效果就能超越所谓的“中心幻觉”——它是需要超越的存在——即每一个体验瞬间中主体与客体之间的二元对立感。
And to take it back to something you said about just all of our different modes in ordinary life, the interesting thing is I think people are constantly losing their sense of self and they're not aware of it. And I mean, there, there's a, probably an analogy to the visual system here, which is to a visual saccades, which perhaps you've spoken about at some point on your podcast. Not enough. So please. Yeah. So, so what happens with our, you know, every time we move our eyes, this is called a saccade, and we do that about, you know, three times a second or so, just normally, there is a, you know, the, the reason a motor cortex that that affects that movement sends what's called an efferent copy of that motor movement, which is, which is used as information that propagates back to visual cortex that suppresses the data of vision while the eyes are moving.
翻译成中文：
让我们回到你提到的关于我们在日常生活中使用的不同模式的问题，令人感兴趣的是，我认为人们常常在不知不觉中失去了自我感。如果要打个比方，可能可以和视觉系统联系起来，特别是快速眼动，你可能在你的播客中有提到过，不够详细的话请补充。是这样的，每次我们移动眼睛时，这就叫快速眼动，我们通常每秒会做三次左右。当运动皮层控制这类运动时，会产生一个叫做“传出拷贝”的信号，这个信号会反馈给视觉皮层，用来抑制眼睛移动期间的视觉数据。
Because otherwise, if you weren't doing that, every time you moved your eyes, it would seem like the visual scene itself was lurching around. And people can experience this for themselves if they just, you know, touch one of their eyeballs on the side, you know, not all that hard and kind of jiggle it, you know, and then they can roll it around, you can jiggle it from side to side, you can see that a, a, a movement of the eyeball that's not governed by your ocular motor system delivers a jiggling of the world because it's not your brain is not anticipating it in the same way and it's not, you're not producing that, that same, you know, predictive copy of the movement. It's a little bit like, you know, some action sports filmers on our staff here that the gimbal, you know, that holds a, an iPhone, like you see the kids, on the surfboards or skateboards or something, they're going to hold a phone while moving around or the people who are the vloggers, they won't even still use that for years.
因为如果你不这样做，那么每次移动眼睛时，视觉场景看起来就像是在晃动。人们可以通过自己动手体验这种情况，只需要用手轻轻触碰眼球的一侧，然后稍微晃动它，你会发现眼球的运动如果不是由眼球运动系统控制的，就会导致世界看起来在晃动。这是因为大脑无法像平时那样预期这种运动，也无法生成相同的运动预测副本。这有点像那些运动摄影师用来稳定拍摄画面的万向仪。就像一些孩子在冲浪板或滑板上手持手机拍摄，又或者是一些博客视频创作者多年来一直使用的设备。
Moving around and it's, it's image stabilization essentially that keeps the camera steady and these are more than cameras, of course, the, for those listening to my eyes, but they do far more than just what a camera would do. But yeah, this internal system of image stabilization, yeah, I can see, perhaps, where you're going with this, that it allows us to remain in a self-referencing scheme as opposed to sort of paying attention to just how confusing it is to, to track the visual world at some level.
这段话的大意是： 移动过程中，它们的图像稳定功能实际上可以让摄像机保持稳定。当然，它们不只是摄像机，对于那些注视我的人来说，它们是我们的眼睛，但它们的功能远远超过摄像机的作用。是的，这个内部的图像稳定系统确实能够让我们保持自我参照的状态，而不是只关注追踪视觉世界是多么复杂和令人困惑这件事。
Well, actually where I'm going is it. So people are having this suppression of vision three times a second on average and they're not experiencing it, right? So like you're like, you're literally like, you're, you're effectively going blind and you're not noticing it and, um, this is very fast. Yes, this is very fast. Now, there, there's an analogous suppression, I would say, of the sense of self that occurs every time attention gets absorbed significantly in its object, right?
其实，我想说的是，人们平均每秒三次经历视力的暂时抑制，但他们自己并没有意识到这个过程。就好像你实际上在短暂失明，却没有察觉到。这种现象发生得非常快。类似的，还有一种自我感知的抑制，每当我们的注意力被某个东西完全吸引时，这种现象也会发生。
So like, we even have this concept of losing yourself in your work or, you know, you're losing your, I mean, the classic flow experiences have this, this quality, where there's, and this tends to be why they're so rewarding, where there's just, if you're in, in some, you know, athletic activity or, you know, an aesthetic one, or you could be having sex, or you could be whatever it is, some peak experience, its peakness usually entails there being some brief period where there was no distance between you and the experience, right?
我们常常会提到在工作中“迷失自我”的情况。这种现象在经典的“心流”体验中也很常见，而这也是为什么这些体验让人觉得特别有成就感的原因。无论是在进行体育活动，还是在欣赏艺术，或者在其他任何高峰体验中，比如性爱，通常都会有那么一小段时间，你完全沉浸其中，感觉自己跟体验本身融为一体，没有距离感。
For that moment, you were no longer looking over your own shoulder or anticipating the next moment or trying to get somewhere where you weren't or, you know, micromanaging errors or, like this, you know, this not, there's just the flow of unity with whatever the, you know, whatever the experience is, you know, a surfer on it on the wave, right? And we love those experiences. And then we are continually abstracted away from them by our thinking about them. We were thinking, oh my god, that was so good, or how do I get back to that?
在那一刻，你不再回头看自己，不再期待下一刻到来，也不再努力去一个你不在的地方，或者你知道的，不再过度纠结于小错误。此时此刻，你融入了一种与经历的和谐流动中。就像冲浪者在海浪上滑行。我们热爱这样的体验，但我们的思维却总是将我们抽离出来，我们会想着，"哇，那感觉太好了，我该如何回到那种状态呢？"
Or, you know, you're looking at a sunset, it's the most beautiful sunset you've ever seen. And then you're continually interrupting the experience of merely seeing it with a commentary about how amazing this is, and I wonder, you know, what are real estate prices are here? I mean, it's a possible actually, we could move here. And like your mind is just continually narrating a conversation you're having with yourself, however paradoxically.
你在欣赏日落，那是你见过的最美的日落。然而，你不断地打断自己单纯欣赏美景的过程，一边感叹这太美了，一边又在想，这里的房价会怎么样？我们有可能搬到这里住吗？你的大脑就这样不断地自我对话，虽然这有点矛盾。
I mean, you're telling yourself things, you're selling things that you already know as though there were two of you rather often, right? Like, you know, you're just, you know, I'm looking for, you know, which is the water. And so there it is, right? But like, I'm the one seeing it. Who am I saying, oh, there it is, too? So there's someone else who needs to be informed about the thing I already saw, right? So it's, it's, there's something about our internal dialogue that is paradoxical.
我意思是，你常常在对自己说一些事情，把你已经知道的东西像在卖给另一个自己，对吧？就像是，你知道，你在寻找什么，比如水，然后你看到了，对吧？但我是那个看到水的人，那我是在对谁说“哦，水在那里”？那么就是有另一个人需要被告知我已经看到的东西，对吧？所以我们的内心对话有些矛盾。
Is there any neurologic condition, um, close electomy or anything like that, where somehow people feel more unified with the cell phone and a continual basis, the observer and the actor within whether it stayed more, more as a complete sentence, is there any known neurological syndrome? It sound like a bad thing, but it could be a good thing whereby people feel that the actor and the observer within them are unified continually.
在中文中，您可以这样表达这个意思：
是否存在这样的一种神经疾病或类似的情况，使得人们在使用手机时，持续感到自己内在的观察者和行动者是统一的？尽管这听起来可能是件坏事，但也可能是件好事。有没有已知的神经综合征，使人们感到内在的观察者和行动者始终保持统一？
There's not a pathological one. Some of them, the work on the default mode networks suggests that that's at least part of the story, right? So the default mode network, um, which has been talked about a lot of late because it has come up both in the in the meditation literature and in the psychedelic literature. But its original discovery was that, you know, and the reason why it was called the default mode was that in virtually every neuroimaging experiment ever run, they found that between tasks when the brain was just in its default state, these midline structures would would increase their activity.
没有病理性的原因。有些情况下，对默认模式网络的研究表明，这至少是其中的一部分，对吧？最近，默认模式网络经常被提及，主要是在冥想和迷幻药的研究中。然而，它最初的发现是因为在几乎所有的神经成像实验中，人们发现当大脑处于默认状态时，不执行特定任务时，这些中线结构的活动就会增加。所以它被称为“默认模式”。
And then they would then they would reliably diminish whenever the person in the scanner was on task. And usually that meant some kind of outward looking, um, you know, visual discrimination task. I mean, but it could be, it could be, you know, it could be visual, it could be semantic, it could be, but there, it tends to be their eyes are open and their pain attention to something that's being broadcast to them through, you know, monitor goggles, um, or, you know, they're looking at a mirror that's showing them a computer monitor.
当扫描仪中的人专注于任务时，他们的（某种）活动就会减少。通常这意味着他们在进行某种向外观察的任务，比如视觉辨别任务。不过，这种任务也可以是视觉的、语义的等。总之，人们通常是睁着眼睛，专注于通过显示屏眼镜或一个反射计算机监视器图像的镜子看到的信息。
Um, but the, so the general insight was there are these midline structures in the brain that seem to be increasing their activity when the brain is just kind of idling between tasks, waiting for something to happen. Um, and then further experiments found tasks that actually upregulated, um, activity there, you know, beyond baseline. And those tasks seem to be self-referential so that when you ask people, you know, you give them a list of words and you say, would do these any of these apply to you, right? You know, and so people are, or you ask people to think about, um, uh, you know, actually one experiment I did when you, you know, when you're challenging people's beliefs, uh, when you're challenging beliefs that have more of a personal significance like political or religious beliefs, you get an upregulation in these regions as opposed to just generic beliefs about, you know, you're in Los Angeles. This is a table, you know, there's something to which, you know, people are not, you know, uh, holding fast as a matter of identity.
嗯，基本的发现是，当大脑在任务之间处于一种“闲置”状态时，有一些中线结构的活动似乎在增加，等待某些事情发生。进一步的实验发现，有些任务实际上会提升这些区域的活动水平，超出基础状态。而这些任务似乎与自我关联有关。比如，当你给人们一个单词列表并询问他们这些单词是否适用于自己，或者让他们思考，比如说，挑战个人信仰的实验中——比如具有个人重要性的政治或宗教信仰——这些区域的活动上升，而相比之下，对于与个人身份无关的普通信念，比如“你在洛杉矶”或者“这是一个桌子”，人们并不会太执着。
Um, so anyway, both meditation and psychedelics seem to suppress activity in these, in these regions, which we know are associated with both self-talk, mind-wondering, and explicit acts of self-representation, right? So could we say that they are somewhat autobiographical because they access memory systems and in the way you're describing them and in the way that a colleague of mine who's been a guest on this podcast, I don't know if you've interacted with him before, but I think you'd very much enjoy whatever interaction you do, would have his, um, David Spiegel, he's our associate chair of psychiatrists. Uh-huh. He and his father actually, his father then he founded, um, hypnosis as a valid clinical practice in psychiatry and hypnosis, which is obviously a heightened sense of attention with deep relaxation is known to dramatically suppress the, the default mode network.
嗯，总之，冥想和迷幻药似乎都压抑了这些区域的活动，而我们知道这些区域与自言自语、思绪漫游和明确的自我表现行为有关，对吧？那么，我们是否可以说它们在某种程度上是自传式的，因为它们接触到了记忆系统，并且按照你描述它们的方式来看，以及按照我一位曾在这个播客做过嘉宾的同事的方式来看，我不知道你是否曾与他互动过，但我认为无论你们有怎样的互动，你都会非常喜欢。他是大卫·斯皮格尔，我们精神病学科的副主任。他和他父亲实际上，他的父亲创立了催眠作为精神病学中的一种有效临床实践，而催眠显然是极度放松下的高度注意力状态，已知可以显著压抑默认模式网络。
He talks about this a lot and I, I always wonder as we, um, take down activity within the default mode network, what surfaces it, in its place and is what surfaces in its place, um, does that somehow reflect that the two are normally in a push pull? Because that's not necessarily the case, right? When I fall asleep, I can hallucinate, but that doesn't mean that during the day, my, uh, the fact that I'm looking at objects is, is what's preventing me from hallucinating. If I close my eyes, I can get imagery, but, you know, there's this kind of, uh, a different illusion, the illusion of antagonistic circuitry sometimes. Um, I don't want to take us off course, but the default mode network seems to, um, want to be there. What? I'm quote, it seems, it seems to be fighting for, for our attention, um, unless we give ourselves a visual target at an auditory target or some salient experience of some kind, it sounds like.
他常常谈论这个话题，而我总是在想，当我们减少默认模式网络中的活动时，接替它的是什么？接替它的东西是否反映了两者之间通常是一种此消彼长的关系？因为情况并非总是如此，对吧？当我入睡时，我可能会产生幻觉，但这并不意味着白天我看着物体的时候是在防止自己产生幻觉。如果我闭上眼睛，我能够想象出图像，但这是一种不同的错觉，一种对抗机制的错觉。我不是想转移话题，但默认模式网络似乎总是想存在在那里。看起来它在争夺我们的注意力，除非我们给自己一个视觉目标、听觉目标或某种显著的体验。
And then if, um, I'm surprised to hear that meditation reduces activity in the default mode network at some level because the meditation to me, oftentimes involves, um, paying attention to a, some sort of perceptual target. Yeah. Maybe you could, um, eventually explain as to, uh, how it might do that or why it might. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think it's the whole story because obviously, outwe're going attention is not, um, even if you're having the kind of egoic saccade that I'm talking about where you're like, you're actually not clearly aware of, of yourself, you're not clearly defining yourself as separate from experience, um, for the moment of paying attention.
然后，我很惊讶地听说冥想在某种程度上减少了默认模式网络的活动，因为对我来说，冥想通常涉及关注某种感知目标。也许你可以解释一下这怎么可能发生或者为什么会这样。我不认为这就是全部，因为很明显，我们的注意力并不是，呃，即使你处于我所说的那种自我扫视状态，你实际上并不清楚地意识到自己的存在，也没有明确将自己与体验区分开来，在专注的那一刻也是如此。
So you are sort of losing yourself in your work. That's not the same thing as having the clear meditative insight of selflessness that I'm, that I'm claiming is the goal of meditation. Um, but there is a, you know, to wind back to the original point I was making and the reason why I drew the, the analogy to visual saccades, I do think there's a continuous interruption in our sense of self that goes unrecognized. And, um, but, but the conscious, uh, acquisition of, of the understanding that the self is an illusion is a different experience. And it's, I mean, because you're, you're then, you're then focusing on this absence.
所以你有点在工作中迷失自己。这与我所认为的冥想目标——清晰的无我洞察——并不相同。嗯，不过，回到我最初的观点，以及为什么我拿视觉扫视作比喻的原因，我确实认为我们对自我的感知中存在一种持续的中断，这往往未被察觉。然而，意识到自我是幻觉这一理解是一种不同的体验。这是因为你在这种情况下会专注于这种缺失。
Actually, there's another analogy to the, you know, the visual system that applies here, which is to the, the optic blind spot. I mean, it's like, so, um, which is a good analogy for me, because it cuts through a bunch of false assumptions as to where we kind of, where that you would look for this or how this relates to ordinary experience. So as many people know that we have, you know, in both eyes, we have, um, what's called the blind spot, which is a consequence of the optic nerve transiting through the retina. I mean, unlike, uh, cephalopods, I think, I think cephalopods have their optic nerve, you know, as, you know, a, an omniscient being would have engineered it, connecting the retina from the back.
实际上，这里还有另一个可以应用的类比，就是与视觉系统有关的视觉盲点。这对我来说是一个很好的类比，因为它可以打破一些错误的假设，比如我们会在哪里寻找这个现象，或者它如何与普通经验相关。许多人都知道，我们的两只眼睛都有一个所谓的盲点，这是因为视神经穿过视网膜而产生的。与头足类动物不同，我认为头足类动物的视神经是从后面连接到视网膜上的，就像一个无所不知的存在设计的一样。
And therefore there is no blind, the area of, blindness associated with its transit back through the retina, but our photo receptors on the outside. Exactly. Humans, whatever reason, uh, put photos, well, I always say I wasn't controlled the design phase. Something put a photo receptors, um, combination of things, but photo receptors in the back. And so you actually have to send the highway of information through the pixel center of the, of the eye. Yeah, cephalopods and, uh, drosophila, uh, basically, um, uh, invertebrates. Right. Uh, the design is more at its face logical mammals, very illogical design, at least as far as our judgments.
因此，当光线穿过视网膜返回时，并没有盲点或与盲有关的区域，因为我们的光感受器在外面。确实如此。对于人类来说，无论出于什么原因，我总是说我并没有参与设计阶段，将光感受器放在了眼睛的后面。因此，你实际上需要通过眼睛的像素中心来传递信息高速公路。而头足类动物和果蝇等无脊椎动物的设计在表面上更加合理，而哺乳动物的设计则比较不合理，至少按照我们的判断来看是这样的。
Yeah. But it gives, it gives me good analogy. So I'll, I'll, I'll take it. I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge our sponsor, Athletic Greens. Athletic Greens is an all in one vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains digestive enzymes and adaptogens. I started taking Athletic Greens way back in 2012. So that's 10 years now of taking Athletic Greens every single day. So I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
好的，不过这个比喻对我很有帮助，所以我接受。我想稍作停顿，感谢一下我们的赞助商，Athletic Greens。Athletic Greens是一种全方位的维生素、矿物质和益生菌饮品，同时还包含消化酶和顺应原。我从2012年就开始每天服用Athletic Greens，到现在已经有10年了。所以，我很高兴他们能赞助这期播客。
The reason I started taking Athletic Greens and the reason I still take Athletic Greens is that it covers all of my foundational nutritional needs. So whether or not I'm eating well or enough or not, I'm sure that I'm covering all of my needs for vitamins, minerals, probiotics, adaptogens to combat stress, and the digestive enzymes really help my digestion. I just feel much better when I'm drinking Athletic Greens. If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to Athletic Greens dot com slash Hubertman.
我开始服用Athletic Greens的原因，以及我现在仍然在服用的原因，是因为它满足了我所有基础营养的需求。无论我是否吃得好或者吃得够，我都能确保摄取到所需的维生素、矿物质、益生菌、适应原（帮助对抗压力的物质），而且其中的消化酶也真的对我的消化很有帮助。每次喝Athletic Greens，我都感觉好多了。如果你想尝试Athletic Greens，可以访问AthleticGreens.com/Hubertman。
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So in any case, we have this blind spot, which you can, I think most people learn this in school, although my daughters had not been taught this in school. I just showed them this for the first time like a month ago, which and they were briefly fascinated and then want to return to their screen time. But anyway, you can take a piece of paper and you make two marks on it and then you cover one eye and you fixate on one mark. I mean, you can look this up online if you need details about how to do this. And while staring at one fixation point, you move the paper back and forth and you can get it to a place where the other mark disappears and that and you can run this experiment long enough to satisfy yourself that there is in fact a blind spot in your visual field, which with one eye closed, you don't normally notice.
所以，无论如何，我们都有这个盲点。我想大多数人在学校都学过这一点，尽管我的女儿们在学校没学过。我大约一个月前第一次给她们展示了这个，她们短暂地感到新奇，然后又想回到她们的屏幕时间上。不管怎样，你可以拿一张纸，在上面做两个标记，然后用一只眼睛盯着一个标记。当然，如果你需要了解具体步骤，可以在网上查找。当你盯着一个标记时，来回移动纸张，你会发现另一个标记会消失。你可以多次做这个实验，直到你确认在你的视觉范围内确实存在一个盲点，虽然在平时用一只眼睛看东西时并不会注意到。
The reason why you have to cover one eye is because each eye compensates for the blind spot of the other. So, but what which is to say that if you close one eye and survey the visual scene, something really is missing, whatever you're looking at. If you're looking at a crowd of people, somebody is missing ahead and you're not noticing it and it's not it's not easy to notice because you know, the brain doesn't tend to vividly represent the absence of information. I mean, it's just like this is just part of the game that's not being rendered. It's not it's not showing up as a a break in your in the visual field. It's just not there and you're I mean, the people have argued that there's a kind of filling in phenomenon that happens, but I think that can be misunderstood or exaggerated.
你需要遮住一只眼睛的原因是因为每只眼睛会补偿另一只眼睛的盲点。这就是说，如果你闭上一只眼睛去观察视野，确实会有东西缺失，不管你在看什么。如果你在看一群人，可能有个人的头会消失，而你没有注意到，并且这不容易察觉。因为大脑不会显著地表现信息的缺失。这就像是游戏里未被渲染的部分，不会在视野中显示为缺口，只是没在那里。有些人认为大脑会进行某种“填补”现象，但我认为这可能被误解或夸大了。
But the eye movements themselves that you described before, I guess I should say that the the saccade analogy of about transiently and repetitively erasing the self works perfectly here because indeed micro saccades, smaller saccades occur all the time also prevent our eyes from fixating it one location. It's long enough to observe our blind spot even if one eye is closed. So if we the the experiment is done with paralytics to essentially lock eyes at one location, basically things just start disappearing. Yeah, it just basically started to lose thing, but actually we start going blind. Right. And those experiments have been done and on humans that hear they're quite terrifying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
这段话的意思是指眼球运动对视觉的影响，尤其是眼球的快速移动（称为扫视运动）如何暂时性和重复性地“消除”自我。这种现象可以通过微小的扫视来解释，因为这些微小的移动会持续发生，防止我们的眼睛长时间固定在一个位置上，从而避免注意到我们的视觉盲点。即使闭上一只眼，扫视也让我们无法长时间凝视某一点。
如果实验中通过使用麻痹药物让眼睛固定在一个位置，视野中的一些东西开始消失。换句话说，我们实际上开始失去视觉，也就是说开始“失明”。这样的实验确实在人体上进行过，让实验对象感到非常恐怖。
But I mean, you can do that for yourself. It just you know, it begins to just all melt away and and a warm glow. No psychedelics required. But the interesting point there is that when you ask yourself, okay, so this because of as a consequence of the eyes anatomy, there's this this thing you can see that is absent from your experience. But the question is where is that in relationship to the rest of you, to your mind, or at least that deep within, or is that in some sense right on the surface of experience? And there's this expectation that people have again, I think conflating meditation with with a search for changes in the contents of consciousness, they're looking for, you know, you know, much more subtle things to to to notice about the mind or much, you know, vaster things to notice.
但是，我的意思是，你可以自己去体验这种感觉。它就像是逐渐融化并变成温暖的光芒，无需借助迷幻药物。不过有趣的是，当你问自己，这种现象由于眼睛解剖结构的原因，是你能感受到但在经验中缺失的存在时，问题来了：它与自我的其他部分、与心灵的关系如何？它是在你内心深处，还是在某种意义上处于表层体验？很多人会误认为冥想是寻找意识内容的变化，他们希望能注意到心灵中更微妙或更宏大的东西。
Psychedelics sets up this this expectation that you do, you know, a massive dose of mushrooms or LSD and everything changes. I mean, you just get this full, you know, de-otific vision. And you know, you get, you know, not only visual changes, but, you know, emotional changes and you get synesthesia where you're just you have much more mind in in in so many ways. So they begin to you having these experiences or reading the mystical literature, you begin to think, okay, well, then freedom is is really elsewhere or is it is really it's deep within it's like it's not it's not coincident with the ordinary awareness that can it can let can see this coffee cup clearly and that can just transition attention to, you know, reading an email, you know, with with the sort of full sobriety of just, you know, ordinary waking consciousness.
迷幻药带来一种预期，即通过服用大量的蘑菇或LSD，一切都会改变。你会感受到一种完全的神秘视觉，不仅有视觉上的变化，还有情感上的变化，并体验到“通感”，这种体验让你的思维在许多方面都更加活跃。通过这些经历或阅读神秘文学，你可能开始认为，真正的自由在别处，或者深藏心底，而并非在普通的意识中。普通意识可以清晰地看到咖啡杯，并在注意力集中到阅读电子邮件时保持清醒和平静。
But the truth is this insight into selflessness, this insight into the non-duality of subject and object is as close to ordinary consciousness as this insight into the optic blind spot. Like, what where do you have to go to have this insight into the blind spot? No, you just have to if you're going anywhere, you just have to set up that the the experiment correctly such that, you know, you you can see the data, but the data is right on the surface. It's like it's it's almost too close to you to notice. I mean, if it's at all hard to notice, it's because it's so close rather than it's, you know, deep within or far away.
但是，事实是，对于无我和主客非二元性的这种洞察，就像对视网膜盲点的洞察一样，离普通意识非常近。比如说，你要在哪里才能获得对视网膜盲点的洞察？不，你只需要正确地设计实验，这样你就能看到数据，但实际上，这些数据就浮现在表面。就好像它们几乎近得让你注意不到。我是说，如果你觉得它们不容易发现，那是因为它们离你太近，而不是因为深藏不露或距离遥远。
And there are other analogies like, I don't remember those minds, I pieces of artwork that were the random dot stereo grounds where you have an image that pops out. I always find it very difficult to see those because I have a very dominant eye, you know, but some people can't see those. These are these images that used to be at the kind of touristy shops of a, but people say, oh, there it is. The whale. I don't think I don't see it. You know, kids that swim a lot when they're younger and they tend to breathe just to one side. I don't know if this was you. This is definitely the tend to will keep one eye close. You can set up a pretty strong, ocular dominance. Buicing your vision to one or the other eye early in life, whether you're learning how to be a bow hunter or you're learning how to throw darts or shoot billiards or anything involves selectively viewing the world through one eye for even a couple of hours can set up a permanent asymmetry in the weighting of visual flow, flow of visual information from the eye to the brain.
这段英文可以翻译成中文如下：
"还有其他类似的例子，比如那些我记不太清楚的作品，它们是随机点的立体图像，你可以从中看到一幅突然显现的图画。我总是觉得很难看到这些，因为我有一只眼睛比较占优势，不过有些人就是看不到。这些图像以前常出现在一些旅游纪念品店，人们会说，‘哦，看，那里有一只鲸鱼。’而我却觉得，我看不到。小孩子在年轻时经常游泳，并倾向于只向一侧呼吸。我不知道您是否有这样的经历。这种习惯会导致他们习惯性地只用一只眼睛看东西，你可以在早期生活中建立起比较强的视觉主导性。不管是学习如何成为弓箭猎人，还是学习投掷飞镖或打台球，任何涉及选择性用一只眼睛看世界的活动，即使只是一两个小时，也可能会造成眼睛到大脑的视觉信息流的不对称性。"
It's reversible, but only through the reverse gymnastics of covering up the other eye intentionally. So I actually, I had to be reverse patched for a while because I was seeing double because I lost binocular vision. I don't stand a chance in hell of seeing an image pop out of a random poster. Which is kind of ironic because I did my PhD on binocular circuitry. But nonetheless, if people can see these or if they can't, I think they provide a really terrific example of what you're talking about as a larger theme, which is that perceptually you see a bunch of dots and then all of a sudden right what you thought wasn't there or suddenly there, but can disappear again or there are certain visual illusions if we were to include others that once you see them, you cannot unsee them. Right. So there's the faces, faces, you know, figure ground type stuff.
这可以逆转，但只有通过刻意遮住另一只眼睛的反向方法才行。所以实际上，我必须进行一段时间的逆向遮盖，因为我失去了双眼视觉，看东西是重影的。我根本没办法从那些随机海报中看到图像跳出来。有点讽刺的是，我的博士研究是关于双眼电路的。不过不论人们能不能看到这些图像，我认为它们确实是一个很好的例子，说明了一个更大的主题：从感知上看，你看到一堆点，然后突然之间，你以为不存在的东西突然出现了，但又可能再次消失。还有些视觉错觉，一旦你看到了，就无法“看不到”它们，比如像是图形-背景关系的视觉幻觉。
Yeah, it's a bit unstable percepts. Yeah, by stable percepts. And then there's sort of ocular competition. You show two different images to the eyes that each of the two eyes. It is near impossible for people to perceive them both simultaneously. Yeah. So it's a little bit of what you're describing. I mean, these seem to be fundamental features about the way the neural circuits are organized that they don't want to stable. They don't want to stay fixated on any one thing for very long to do so either takes training, intense interest, intense fear, intense excitement. And I say intense, I guess I come back to this idea that the autonomic nervous system is somehow governing our ability to spotlight at any one location for very long. Is that a useful framework or is that going to take us down a different path?
是的，这有点像不稳定的感知。是的，通过稳定的感知。然后有一种叫做视觉竞争的现象。当你把两幅不同的图像分别展示给两只眼睛时，人们几乎不可能同时感知到这两幅图像。这有点像你所描述的内容。似乎这是神经回路组织的基本特征之一，它们不喜欢稳定在某一个事物上太久。要做到这一点，需要训练、强烈的兴趣、强烈的恐惧或强烈的兴奋。当我说“强烈”时，我想回到这个观点，即自主神经系统在某种程度上控制着我们在某个位置长时间聚焦的能力。这是一个有用的框架，还是会引导我们走向不同的方向？
Well, it's sort of a different path for this. I mean, for the only point I was making is that the seemingly paradoxical claim that something can be right on the surface and yet hard to see. Right. So like there are things that are because it's and again, this seems to justify the expectation held by I would think the vast majority of people who get interested in these, spiritual things, relax for a better word, that the truth must somehow be deep within. Right. Like there's really like a there's some distance between where you're between the one who is looking and the thing that has to be found. Right. And you have to go through this long evolution of changes. I mean, the many metaphors that set this up is like you're at the base of a mountain and you have to climb to the top.
好吧，这有点像走了一条不同的路。我是说，我唯一想表达的观点就是，一个看似矛盾的说法：有些事情表面上看起来正确，但实际上却很难被看清。这种观点似乎合理，因为大多数对这些精神层面的事物感兴趣的人——暂且用"精神层面"这个词——会认为真理必定蕴藏在深处。就像是，寻找的人与需要找到的东西之间总有一段距离。为了找到真理，你必须经历漫长的变化过程。比如说，很多比喻把这种过程描述成从山脚一步步攀登至山顶。
And so you have to find the path however secure does to get you there. But there really is a distance between where you're between your starting point and the goal. And what I'm arguing at, you know, and this is a kind of a non dual to use a term of jargon. This is a non dual approach to meditation as opposed to a dualistic one. That there really is a the path and the goal are our our coincidence. Right. That there's a that you have to unravel the logic by which you would seek something that's outside of the you know, the present moments experience. You know, IE not available really not available to you now. Because so many things worth having so many so many skills worth acquiring really are not available to you now.
为了达到目标，你必须找到一个合适的路径来稳妥地前行。不过，确实存在一个从起点到目标的距离。我想强调的是，这是一种“非二元”的冥想方法，与“二元”方法不同。在这种方法中，路径和目标其实是重合的。你需要理清那种让你追求眼前体验之外事物的逻辑，因为许多值得拥有的东西和技能，现在都不在你触手可及的范围内。
It's like it's like, you know, if you want to be a pianist or if you want to speak Chinese or like like the you there's something you don't know. And then you want to learn that thing. And there's a whole process, right. And you might not be capable of doing it. Right. You might and and real mastery is far away. Right. If you if you've never hit a golf ball and you want to hit a golf ball 300 yards straight. Right. You know, I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to do that initially. And you're not going to do it, you know, on day two. And you're not going to do it reliably for the longest time. And there's real training, you know, in front of you to to be able to do that reliably.
就像你知道的，如果你想成为钢琴家，或者你想说中文，有一些你目前不知道的东西，然后你想去学习它。这需要一个完整的过程，对吧？而且你可能一开始做不到，对吧？真正掌握可能还遥不可及。比如你从来没打过高尔夫球，但想把球打出300码远并且保持直线。我几乎可以保证你一开始做不到，也不会在第二天就做到，而且很长一段时间内你都无法稳定做到这一点。要做到这一点，你需要真正地进行训练。
And insight into and really the core insight. I mean, the insight that is the core of you know, the Buddha's teaching to take one historical example of this. Really is available now. And it is not I mean, you know, granted, it can be very hard one for people. I mean, I had probably spent a year on silent retreat in in, you know, one week to three month increments before I sort of got the point I'm making now. Right. So like I you know, it's quite, it's I mean, literally and this is these are, you know, is a retreats where he's been, you know, 12 to 18 hours a day, just meditating, trying to, to unpack the kinds of claims I'm, you know, making now.
这段话的中文翻译大致如下：
深入的领悟，真正核心的领悟。我指的是，作为一个历史例子，这种领悟就是佛陀教导的核心。现在，这种领悟确实是可以获得的。当然，我承认，对于某些人来说，理解这种领悟可能非常困难。我自己可能花了一年的时间参加一些沉默的闭关修行，时间从一周到三个月不等，才理解到我现在要表达的意思。对，所以，就像我说的，这些闭关修行中，他每天进行12到18小时的冥想，努力解开我现在所述说的这些主张。
So there is it's possible to rigorously overlook this. It's possible to stand in front of the mind's eye image and stare in a way that is guaranteed not to give you pop out, right. And to be to be adept at, you know, staring in that way. So it's possible to be misled. And so what I'm what I'm trying to argue here is that there's a fair amount of leverage you can get with, with better information, which can kind of cut the time course of you are searching for this thing and, and, and kind of cancel your false expectations about just where this is in relation to your ordinary waking consciousness.
因此，有可能严格地忽略这一点。可以站在心灵的视野前，以一种不会让你被突然出现的图像惊吓的方式注视，而且还能擅长以这种方式盯着看。所以，人是有可能被误导的。我的观点是，通过更好的信息，你可以在某种程度上掌握主动权，这可以缩短你寻找这个东西的时间过程，并纠正你对它在日常清醒意识中的位置的错误期望。
And it's possible to get bad information and to have a bunch of experiences, you know, you go, you go and do an ayahuasca trip and you have, it's incredibly valuable and is valuable for all the ways in which it changed the contents of your consciousness in, you know, startling ways. And you had insights into your past and into your relationships and into why you're not as loving as you might be and there's lots to think about. And you're like, yeah, that's all great. That's all something that, you know, you can talk about. But there is, it truly is orthogonal.
这句话可以翻译为：有时候我们可能会得到错误的信息，并且经历一系列事情。比如说，你去进行一次死藤水（ayahuasca）的旅行，这次经历对你而言非常有价值，因为它以令人惊讶的方式改变了你的意识内容。你对过去、对人际关系、对自己为何不够有爱心都有了新的领悟，这些都值得仔细思考。你会觉得，这一切都很好，是值得谈论的。但实际上，这一切都与真正的问题不在一个层面上。
I mean, if it makes a point of contact to what I'm talking about, it's really interesting. One point, you know, and it's at the point where this sense of subject object division in consciousness is illusory and vulnerable to investigation. And if you investigate it, that's sort of the right plane of focus. You know, you pick the analogy you want from, you know, whether it's, you know, setting up the, the, the optic blind spot experiment in just the right way so that you can see that, you know, it's actually not the data is not there.
我的意思是，如果这能与我所谈论的内容产生联系，那会非常有趣。一个关键点是，在意识中主体与客体的分裂感实际上是虚幻的，并且可以通过探究来揭示。如果你去探究这个问题，那就是正确的关注点。你可以选择类似的比喻，比如正确设置视野盲点实验，这样你就能发现其实数据并不存在。
Or, I mean, the by stable percept is great because, you know, when you see one of these images, like the vase, face, diagram, or, you know, the Dalmatian, you know, that it looks like it's just a mess of dots and then you see the image of a Dalmatian dog pop out. Once you see it, you really can't unsee it. I mean, well, like once you have the, the requisite conceptual, you know, anchor to it, then every time you look, you're going to find it again and eventually becomes effortless.
换句话说，我是说这个稳定感知的现象真的很有趣。比如，当你看到一些图片，比如花瓶和脸的图案，或者斑点狗的图片时，起初你可能只觉得是一团乱七八糟的点，但突然间你会看到一只斑点狗的图像。一旦你看到了，就很难再把它看不见。我的意思是，一旦你有了必须的概念基础，每次再看时你都会再次找到它，最终就变得毫不费力了。
And that's what ultimately meditation is. I mean, this kind of meditation, you, you ultimately learn to recognize that there's no separation from you between you and your experience, right? There's not the experience on the one hand and the self on the other. There's just experience, right? There's just seen hearing smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, feeling, you know, proprioception, add, add whatever channels of information you want to that.
这就是冥想的终极意义。我指的是这种类型的冥想，最终你会学会认识到，你和你的体验之间是没有分离的。不是一边是体验，一边是自我，其实只有体验。只有看到、听到、闻到、尝到、触碰到、思考、感受到的东西，还有自身感知。你可以添加任何你想要的信息渠道。
But there's just the, there's just the totality of the energy of consciousness and its contents. And there's no, it's not that you're on the riverbank. And this is, this is how it can seem in the beginning, even when you're practicing meditation fairly diligently. It can seem like you're on the riverbank watching the contents of consciousness flow by.
但是，总体上，这就是意识的能量及其内容。并不是说你在河岸上。即使你在相当勤奋地练习冥想，刚开始的时候，它可能会看起来像是你站在河岸上，观看意识的内容流过。
And then, and meditation is the act of doing that more and more dispassionately. So you're no longer grabbing at the, at the pleasant or pushing the unpleasant away. You're just kind of relaxing and in the most non-judgmental frame of mind, just witnessing the flow, right? But if you're doing that dualistically, you feel like the meditator, you feel like the subject, aiming attention. And so now you're on the riverbank watching everything go, go pass.
然后，冥想就是逐渐以更冷静的态度来做到这一点。因此，你不再去抓住愉悦的事物，也不再推开不愉快的事物。你只是以一种最不带评判的心态放松下来，观察着一切的流动，对吧？但是如果你以二元对立的方式去做，你会感觉自己是冥想者，仿佛是一个主体，把注意力集中在某处。因此，你就好像坐在河岸边，看着一切事物流过。
But the truth is, you are the river, right? Experience itself is there is just experience itself. You're not, you're not on the edge of experience. And everything you can notice is part of the flow, right? And there's no point from which to abstract yourself away from the flow, to stand outside it and to say, okay, this is, this is my life, this is my experience, this is my body. Yes, you can do that. I mean, those are all just thoughts, but that's more of the flow, right? And so there is a, there's a process by which you would eventually recognize that there's no distance between you and your experience.
但实际上，你就是那条河，对吗？体验本身就是体验本身。你并不处于体验的边缘。你能注意到的一切都是流动的一部分。没有一个点可以将你自己从流动中抽离出来，站在外面说，好吧，这是我的生活，这是我的体验，这是我的身体。是的，你可以这样做，我的意思是，那些都只是想法，但这仍然是流动的一部分。因此，最终你会认识到，你和你的体验之间是没有距离的。
And again, you can, you can wait for those moments in life where experience gets so good or so terrifying, you know, it's just so salient, right? You're a meagre de laze driving so hard. I mean, so you're in a war and you can't think about anything because the, you know, the enemy is shooting at you and this is the most thrilling video game you've ever played in your life. And your life is on the line or your, your, you know, at the peak of some, you know, athletic event where there's just, you don't know how you're doing the things you're doing, but it's all happening automatically, right?
再次，你可以等待那些生活中经验特别美好或特别恐怖的时刻。你知道，那种时刻就特别醒目，对吧？你的肾上腺素在疯狂飙升。比如说，你身处战争中，无法思考其他事情，因为敌人在向你射击，这是你玩过的最刺激的游戏，而你的生命岌岌可危。又或者在某种体育赛事中达到巅峰时刻，你不知道自己是如何做到这些事情的，但一切都在自动发生。
But, you know, those are, those are, you know, one one hundredth of one percent of one's life, you know, and, you know, what I'm calling meditation is a way of simply understanding the mechanics of attention whereby you are denying yourself that unity of experience so much at the time and recognizing that that's, you know, it's based on a, a misperception of the way consciousness always already is. Well, if there wasn't an incentive to learn how to meditate properly, that was one. And I've been meditating for a fair amount since I was in my teens, but more along the lines of just paying attention to breath and, you know, recognize thoughts sort of observer, open observer type meditation or focused attention, I would suppose more of the focused attention type.
但是，你知道，那些只是生活中极其微小的一部分，可能只占到百分之一。所谓的冥想，其实就是一种理解注意力机制的方法，通过这种方式，你意识到自己大多数时候都在剥夺体验统一性的机会，并且认识到这种情况源于对意识本来状态的误解。认为如果没有激励去正确学习冥想，那么这就是一个很大的激励。自从十几岁起我就开始进行一定量的冥想，不过更多是专注于呼吸，以及类似观察者、开放观察者类型的冥想，或者说是专注力类型的。
We'll get into these a little bit later, but I have a number of questions related to what you just said. Sure. I love the idea that this thing that we would all do well to understand, to observe consciousness itself as opposed to trying to alter the contents of consciousness may sit much closer to us than one might think that it, and that, because it sits so close to us that that might be one of the reasons why we miss it. I go right to a visual system, an example, I mean, if you don't, you're wearing corrective lenses and there's a spec on your lens, you know, typically you're looking out through the lens and so you wouldn't observe that spec.
我们稍后会详细讨论这些问题，但首先我有一些和你刚才所说内容有关的问题。好的。我非常喜欢这个观点：与其试图改变意识的内容，不如学习理解和观察意识本身，这种方法可能比我们想象的更接近我们。而正因为它离我们如此之近，这可能就是我们常常忽视它的原因之一。我马上想到了一个视觉系统的例子，比如，如果你戴着眼镜，而你的镜片上有一个污点，通常你会透过镜片向外看，因此你不会注意到那个污点。
Any number of different analogies could work here. The fact that there are states, however, few positive and negative, extreme, extreme, extreme fear being the two, I think most obvious ones that seems like we agree on that allows to capture the sense of completeness of self or the unity of the observer and the actor. The fact that those are seldom for the non-trained, for the non-meditator suggests to me two things. I think one perhaps worth exploring more than the other, but one is that what's really being revealed in the states where we can feel the unity of the observer and the actor is understanding something fundamental about the algorithm, not the online algorithm, but the algorithm that is our nervous system.
这里可以有很多不同的类比。重点在于存在一些状态，尽管很少，比如极其正面的和极其负面的，特别是极端的恐惧，这似乎是我们都同意的状态，它们能够捕捉到自我完整性或观察者与行动者合一的感觉。对于未经训练的人或者非冥想者来说，这种状态很少出现，这对我来说暗示了两点。一个可能比另一个更值得探索，其一是当我们能感受到观察者与行动者合一的状态时，实际上揭示了我们对于神经系统这一"算法"的一些基本理解，而不是在线算法。
Just as you mentioned, cephalopods, I mean, mantis shrimp, sea, an enormous array of color hues that we don't, right? Their maps and representations of the world are fundamentally different. Pitvipers, sea and the infrared. We're restricted to some of a limited range within the color spectrum, but still more vast than that of dogs or cats. Okay, so understanding that for seeing what a pitviper can see for moments would be informative, perhaps sensing heat emissions as a human might be invasive, and maybe that's why we don't do it.
正如你提到的，头足类动物，例如虾螳螂，它们能看到我们无法看到的丰富色彩。它们对世界的感知和我们根本不同。像响尾蛇这样的动物可以看到红外线，而我们只能看到有限的色谱范围，不过这个范围仍然比狗或猫的视野更广。所以，能像响尾蛇那样看到红外线可能会给我们一些启示。也许作为人类感知热量是具有侵略性的，这可能是我们不具备这种能力的原因。
So the question is, to just make it straightforward, is why would the system be designed this way? Again, neither of us were consulted the design phase, but that brings me to perhaps the more tractable question, which is about development. I mean, I'm a great believer that the neural circuits that encouraged healthy parent-child relations or unhealthy parent-child relations, as the case may be, in childhood, stem from the initial demands of internal versus external states, which is exactly that we're talking about, which is that a young child feels anxious because it needs its diaper change.
所以，简单来说，问题是：为什么这个系统会被设计成这个样子？当然，我们谁都没有参与设计阶段，但这让我想到一个也许更容易解答的问题，那就是关于系统发展的问题。我的意思是，我坚信，在儿童时期促成健康或不健康的亲子关系的神经回路，源于内部与外部状态的最初需求。就像我们刚才讨论的一样，一个小孩感到焦虑是因为他需要更换尿布。
This doesn't really know it needs its diaper change, or it's cold, or it's uncomfortable, or it's hungry, or it's overly full. And so it vocalizes, and then some external source comes to us and relieves that, hopefully. And so the fundamental rule that we first learn is not that we have a cell for that things fall down, not up, but is that when uncomfortable, externalize that discomfort, and it will be relieved by an outside player. And then, of course, there's a repurposing of that circuitry for adult romantic attachments. I don't think anyone doubts that, and that can explain a lot indeed about attachment, and so forth.
这段话的大意是：它（婴儿）并不真正知道自己需要换尿布、感到冷、不舒服、饿了或者吃得太多。因此，它会通过哭闹来表达感受，然后外界的人（如父母）会过来帮助它解决问题。因此，我们首先学到的基本规则不是要知道物体会下落，而是当我们感到不舒服时，应通过外部表达这种不适，然后外界会帮助我们缓解这种感觉。当然，这种行为模式后来也被运用到成人的浪漫关系中。我想没有人会对此产生怀疑，这也可以解释很多关于依恋关系的现象。
So something about our developmental wiring algorithms that these neural circuits run tend to bias most people, the non-practice meditators, to live a somewhat functional life, at least, without this awareness of actor and observer. And so what you're really talking about is a deliberate intervention to understand and resolve that gap in the algorithm. Do I have that right? I'm more or less restating what you said in a way that I'm hoping will serve as a jumping off point as to, you know, why questions are always very dangerous in biology, or any, you know.
所以，我们发展中的神经回路算法似乎倾向于让大多数人，也就是那些不经常练习冥想的人，过一种至少相对功能化的生活，而不具备演员和观察者之间的意识。你谈论的其实是一种有意识的干预，用来理解和解决算法中的那个差距。我理解的对吗？我这样重述是希望能作为讨论的起点，因为在生物学或其他领域中，"为什么"这个问题总是很棘手。
And in relationship. What's that? Or in relationship. Or in relationship, right? Exactly. Although I think it all does really harken back to this early developmental wiring, which, of course, is modifiable. That's the beauty of the nervous system, is it's the one organ that seems to be able to change itself, at least to some degree.
在关系中。那是什么？或者说在关系中。在关系中，对吗？没错。虽然我认为这一切确实可以追溯到早期的发育连接，当然这种连接是可以改变的。神经系统的美妙之处就在于，它似乎是唯一一个能够在某种程度上自我改变的器官。
So what are your thoughts about the organization of the circuitry to essentially under normal conditions to not reveal? It's what seems to be one of its more important and profound and for, you know, deri say, enlightening features, right? It's almost as if we are potentially like mantis shrimp. We can see so many more colors than we actually see. And yet we don't. We sort of, most people opt not to. And I would argue that one of the great strengths of the waking up app, for instance, that it essentially walks you through the process of being able to arrive at these things without having to go to one year or three year long silent meditation retreats.
这段话的大意是：你对电路组织的看法是什么？在正常情况下，它的设计似乎是不让我们察觉的。这似乎是它重要而深刻，甚至可以说是启发性的特点之一。就好像我们可能像螳螂虾一样，能够看到比我们实际看到的更多的颜色。然而，大多数人选择不去注意。我认为 "Waking Up" 应用程序的一个巨大优势是，它能够引导你达到这种状态，而无需去参加长达一到三年的静修冥想课程。
So if you can just elaborate from home before we move on about, you know, what are your thoughts about how the circuitry is arranged by default versus that then and what that means for there to be an intervention that we have to intervene in the self in order to reveal the self. Well, so the two big questions there, one about evolution, one about development. So with respect to evolution, I mean, it's important to recognize that evolution doesn't see our deepest concerns about human flourishing and human well-being. It's all about the offspit. It's just, you know, we are set up to spawn and to survive long enough to help our progeny spawn if we can do that.
所以，在我们继续之前，请你在家详细说明一下你的想法，关于默认情况下电路是如何排列的，以及这与后来的变化之间的区别，这意味着什么，以至于我们必须进行干预，才能揭示自我。这里有两个重要的问题，一个关于进化，一个关于发展。关于进化，首先要认识到，进化并不关心我们对人类幸福和福祉的深刻关注。进化只关心后代的繁衍。也就是说，我们的设定是为了繁衍和在帮助我们的后代繁衍之前生存足够长的时间。
And that's it, right? And so anything that was good for that, including tribalism and xenophobia and, you know, all kinds of hardware and software flaws that are that are reveal themselves to be flaws in the present time when we're trying to build a viable global civilization. But, you know, they they were down to the advantage of our ancestors somehow. Or they just there's there are things about us that were simply not selected for. They just kind of came along for the ride, you know, the, you know, what Stephen Jay Gould will call a spandrel, you know.
这就是重点，对吧？所以，过去那些有利于我们的事物，包括部落主义、排外心理，以及各种在当今尝试建立可行的全球文明时被揭露为缺陷的硬件和软件问题，但它们在某种程度上确实帮助了我们的祖先。或者说，有些特质只是因为伴随着其他被选择的特征而存在，并没有被特别选择出来，就像斯蒂芬·杰·古尔德所称的“副产品”。
So we are not set up by evolution to be as happy as we possibly can be. And certain and to do almost anything that interests us well. I mean, we're not set up by evolution to be mathematicians or musicians or to create democracies that are healthy. I mean, evolution can see none of this. And we're doing these things based on cognitive and emotional hardware that we are leveraging in new directions, right? And we have we are primates. And we are, you know, we're communicating with, you know, small mouth noises.
所以，从进化角度来看，我们并不是被设计成能够尽可能快乐的生物。我们并没有被进化设计成擅长数学家、音乐家，或者是创造健康民主社会的人。进化无法预见这些。而我们正在利用我们的认知和情感能力，将其引向新的方向。我们是灵长类动物，我们通过咀嚼发声进行沟通。
I mean, we're language using primates and all of that is clearly evolved. And we're doing these amazing things, including science, you know, however improbably we're actually able to, you know, almost entirely with language. Understand reality that at a scale that exceeds us in both directions. I mean, the very vast and the very small and, you know, also temporarily, the very old, we have, you know, visions of the far future. We can figure out, you know, where an asteroid is going to cross Earth's orbit a thousand years from now, if we just do the math.
我的意思是，我们是会使用语言的灵长类动物，而这种能力显然是进化而来的。我们能够做出一些令人惊叹的事情，包括科学探索，不管这种能力有多么不可思议，我们几乎完全依靠语言就能够理解超越我们自身尺度的现实世界。无论是非常宏大的，还是极其微小的事物，还有在时间维度上，从非常古老的过去到遥远的未来，我们都能有所感知。比如，通过计算，我们甚至能预测一颗小行星在一千年后将如何穿过地球的轨道。
And it's amazing that we can do all of those things, but evolution is blind to all of that, right? And so we have, in terms of what we care about and certainly in terms of what we what's going to ensure our survival as a species, we have flown the perch that was created for us by evolution. I mean, we're just not, it's not just the primate things. And so so it is with learning how to regulate our emotions and, and you know, punch through to a self-concept or beyond a self-concept that is more normative. Psychologically that allows us to, you know, not be terrorized by our apish genes as fully as we seem to be, even in the presence of more and more destructive technology that I mean, like, you know, we're, we're still practically chimpanzees armed with nuclear weapons, right? I mean, and that is, you know, increasingly dysfunctional.
这段话翻译成中文如下：
我们能够做到这一切，真是太神奇了，但进化对这一切是盲目的，对吧？因此，从我们关心的事情，尤其是从确保我们作为一个物种生存的角度来看，我们已经超越了进化为我们创造的限制。我是说，这不仅仅是灵长类动物能做到的事情。因此，我们需要学习如何调节情绪以及突破自我概念，甚至超越一个更加规范的自我概念。这样做可以让我们不再完全被灵长类基因所困扰，尤其是在面对越来越多具破坏性的技术时。就像是我们好像仍然是手持核武器的黑猩猩，而这显然是越来越不正常的状态。
And very soon we're going to be in the presence of minds or apparent minds that we have built, you know, that are as intelligent as we are, or and very quickly, you know, probably 15 minutes after that, far more intelligent than we are. And so what we do with all of that is again, something that we have to figure out based on the minds we have, the minds we can build, the minds we can change, you know, we can, we can metal with our own genomes now. And, and that will produce its own consequences, you know, in ourselves and in future generations if we've metal with the germ line.
很快，我们将会面对由我们自己创造的思维或者类似思维的存在，它们会和我们一样聪明，甚至可能在很短时间内，比我们更加聪明。如何处理这一切，是我们需要通过现有的思维、可以构建的思维以及我们可以改变的思维来解决的问题。现在，我们已经能对自己的基因进行干预，如果我们对生殖细胞进行改变，将会在我们自己以及未来的后代中引发一系列后果。
And again, all of that is just, you know, you know, evolution is just sort of the womb we came out of, but it's not, it didn't anticipate any of that, right? So, so the, you know, mother nature has simply not had our best interests at heart, right? And it's, we might die off and, and from the point of view of mother nature, that's, that's fine because 99% of every species dies off, you know. So there's that, but when you're talking about the individual developmentally, so you know, we all come into this world again as a, as a fairly hairless primate that needs a tremendous amount of care by others.
再说一遍，所有这些只是，嗯，你知道，进化就像是我们诞生的子宫，但它并没有预见到任何这些，对吧？所以，大自然并没有真正把我们的最佳利益放在心上。我们可能会灭绝，从大自然的角度来看，这没什么，因为99%的物种都会灭绝。不过，谈到个体的发展，我们都进入这个世界时，像一个需要他人极大关爱的、几乎没有毛发的灵长类动物。
And the logic of that is that, you know, you know, the reason why we're not a gazelle that can run, you know, 45 minutes later, and then basically do all the gazelle things perfectly soon thereafter. The reason why we have, you know, we have this, this time of immaturity, and that becomes, it has become functional for us, is that it's just, we, we're far more flexible and we can learn based on the needs of, of an environment to do, you know, so much more than a gazelle can, and languages apart of that, and, you know, in the last 10,000 years or so, culture increasingly has been more and more a part of that.
这种逻辑是这样的：你知道，我们之所以不像羚羊那样，在出生45分钟后就能奔跑，并随即完美地做羚羊该做的事，是因为我们有一段成长的不成熟期，而这种不成熟对我们来说却有功能性。原因在于，我们的适应能力更强，能够根据环境的需求去学习，做很多羚羊无法做到的事情，语言就是其中一个例子。而且在过去的一万年左右，文化越来越成为其中的一部分。
And there's a probably a layer at which we can plausibly talk about cultural evolution, you know, and cultural evolution interacting with biological evolution to, to change us. But when you're talking about the development of an individual, each of us comes into this world, I think, not recognizing ourselves in any, in any sense that it would make sense to, to reify. I mean, it's not that there's nothing there. I mean, there could be some kind of proto-self differentiation, but I think it's, it takes a long while, and there is very likely a coincidence between really recognizing others, we recognize others first, and we're in certainly in relationship immediately, and we orient to human faces, and, and we, you know, even detect other humans as good and bad moral actors very early.
在某个层面上，我们可以合理地讨论文化进化，以及文化进化如何与生物进化相互作用，从而改变我们。不过，当我们谈论个人的发展时，我认为我们每个人来到这个世界时，并不具备任何可以被具体化的自我认知。这并不是说什么都没有，也许存在某种原始的自我区分，但我认为这需要很长时间。同时，很可能在我们真正认知他人的时候会出现一种巧合：我们首先认知他人，并立即建立关系，比如我们会对人脸感兴趣，并且很早就能判断他人是好是坏的道德标准。
I mean, certainly long before we recognize ourselves in a mirror, we, the experiments run. Again, this is Paul Bloom and, and colleagues experiments run on kind of the moral hardware and software of developing toddlers. But I think at this point, they push it down all the way to like six months of, of age where you'll get these infants staring at kind of a puppet show, and they'll, they'll show a, and a, a greater interest in, you know, you know, classically good actors versus bad actors, you know, cooperators versus, you know, defectors in various, you know, puppet show games.
这段话可以翻译成中文如下：
“我的意思是，当然在我们学会在镜子中认出自己之前，我们已经进行过一些实验。这里所讲的是Paul Bloom和同事们进行的实验，研究对象是正在发育中的幼儿的道德硬件和软件。据我所知，现在他们把研究对象的年龄下探至大约六个月。这些婴儿会盯着木偶剧看，对于所谓的‘好’角色比‘坏’角色表现出更大的兴趣，比如在各种木偶剧游戏中，对合作者比不合作者更感兴趣。”
So there's, it's not that we have no mind and no, um, proto-awareness of others and, and of self, but what eventually happens, certainly as we become at all facile with, with languages, is that we become aware that, that not only are we in relationship to others, but we are an object in the world for them, right? So that like, we have enough people pointing at us in our cribs, right? And impinging upon our experience, right? You know, you, you're, you're being physically moved and prodded and touched and consoled or not consoled. And just imagine what all of these, you're, you're on the receiving end of 10,000 interventions, right?
所以，这并不是说我们完全没有思想，也不是说我们对他人和自我的认识完全不存在。随着我们逐渐掌握语言，我们开始意识到，不仅仅是我们与他人有关系，我们在他们的眼中也是一个客体。想象一下，当我们还在婴儿床里时，有足够多的人指着我们，不断影响我们的感受。比如说，你被人移动、触碰、安慰或者没有被安慰。想想这些经历，你就像是在接收成千上万次的互动。
And you're completely helpless for the longest time. Um, and all of that attention, you have all of these people coming up, you know, to the crib and, and making faces at you. Cheering. Yeah. And, and it's all pointed at you, right? So there's a, you know, there's a, you know, a classic magical narcissism that gets constructed. there. If you, if you take the psychological literature, you know, at least a certain strand of it, seriously. And I think it's, it's largely apt to, to think of a child at that age as a kind of, there's a kind of narcissistic structure there where it's, it's, it's all kind of going inward.
在相当长的一段时间里，你完全无能为力。嗯，所有的注意力都集中在你身上，许多人走到你的小床前，对你做鬼脸，欢呼，是的，一切都围绕着你。这就构建了一种经典的“魔幻自恋”现象。如果你认真看待某些心理学文献，就会发现这种观点大致适用于理解这个年龄的孩子，他们的结构就像是一种内向的自恋。
And at a certain point, you realize, okay, I'm, I'm the center of all of this, right? Like, it's not just, it's not just a, a movie that you're, that you're, you know, what you're, that you're completely absorbed in and you've lost your sense of self. I mean, this is to talk about, to, you get another example of, um, of what it's like as a grown-up to lose our sense of self.
在某个时刻，你会意识到，我才是这一切的中心，对吧？这不仅仅是你完全沉浸其中、丧失自我的一部电影。这是说，我们成年后失去自我感觉的另一个例子。
And one of the things I think we find so fascinating by, you know, about television and, and film is that when we get totally absorbed in it, we're in this very unusual circumstance where we're, you know, our brain is basically reading it as we're in a, in the classic social circumstance, we're presented with, with, you know, the, the facial displays of other people. In fact, you know, we can get, some of the, sometimes these people are 10 feet tall, right? Or their faces are 10 feet tall, you really, but close up in a movie theater.
我们觉得电视和电影如此迷人的一个原因是，当我们完全沉浸其中时，我们的大脑基本上会把它解读为一种经典的社交情境。我们会看到屏幕上出现其他人的面部表情。有时候，这些人或者说他们的脸，在电影屏幕上能够有十英尺高。尤其在电影院里近距离观看时，这种感觉尤为强烈。
So it's like this super stimulus in terms of, of, of evolution. And they could make it, they could be making direct eye contact with a camera, right? So you have this gigantic face staring at you and yet you're totally unimplicated socially. You can't be seen and you, and something about that, you know you can't be seen. And so you're completely, you completely lose self-consciousness and yet you're, you're, able to examine with completely free attention again, because you're totally unimplicated.
所以，从进化的角度来看，这就像是一种超级刺激。他们可能会与你直接进行眼神交流，就像盯着相机看一样。于是，一个巨大的脸看着你，但在社交层面上你完全没有参与感。你知道自己不会被看到，因此不再感到自我意识的束缚，却能够用完全自由的注意力去观察，因为你不受任何涉及。
The, the, the facial minutia and the mimetic facial play of people from, at a very close range. I mean, you're seeing people close, I mean, you have to be, you know, physically just, you know, about to kiss your, your, your spouse. Like that's what a close-up is in a film, right? Like that, you never get that close to people, right? And yet hear you're in a situation where you're unobserved and you know that.
这段文字在讨论影视作品中的特写镜头，以及人们在非常近的距离观察他人面部细节和表情变化。意思是说，在电影中看到的特写镜头，就像你与配偶亲吻时的距离一样近。但在现实生活中，你很少与人靠得那么近。不过，在这样的情境中，你既可以仔细观察他人的表情变化，又知道自己没有被发现。
And so, I mean, this is a bit of a tangent, but the, it's the other side of what's happening developmentally for a kid. When you're in a movie theater watching a movie, you are truly invisible and yet you're right there seeing, you know, the, however harrowing the human drama is, you're seeing it play out and you're seeing it, you're seeing it up close. And it is a, it is in principle a social encounter that your genes are ready for, but they're not ready for you to be invisible, right? And so, that's what's so magical about it.
这有点偏题，但这实际上涉及孩子在成长过程中的另一个方面。当你在电影院观看电影时，你实际上是“隐形”的，但你又真真切切地在那里观看。无论电影中的人类戏剧多么惊心动魄，你都可以近距离地看到它的发展。这本质上是一个社会互动，这种互动我们的基因是准备好去面对的，但我们的基因并未为“隐形”这件事做好准备。这正是它神奇之处所在。
But what happens developmentally for a kid is that you're not invisible. You are an object that is constantly being, being overrun, the boundaries of your, you know, your sensory engagement with the world are constantly being impinged upon by others. And at a certain point, you recognize, okay, I'm at the center of this.
在孩子的成长过程中，会发现自己不是透明的。你是一个不断被关注的对象，你与世界的感官接触界限经常被别人影响。到了某个时刻，你会意识到，哦，我是这一切的中心。
And the way this gets enshrined as a self, I think it's probably coincident with our learning the language game we learn to play with others. Where we're talking to others, people are talking to us. And at a certain point, we're talking to ourselves even when the other people leave the room, right? So, and you can hear, if you ever have been with a toddler when they're, when they're, when they're externalizing their self-talk, you know, you hear them talking to themselves, they're playing and they're, and they're, they're having a conversation, they, they were talking to you, the parent, but then you left the room and they're still talking.
这段话的大意是：我认为，自我意识形成的过程很可能与我们学习与他人玩语言游戏的过程同时发生。在我们与他人交流、他人与我们沟通的过程中，到了一定阶段，即便其他人离开了房间，我们依然在与自己对话。你可能见过这样情景：当一个小孩子在自言自语时，你能听到他们在跟自己说话。他们一边玩耍，一边进行对话。起初他们在跟父母对话，后来父母离开了房间，他们仍继续自言自语。
You come back in and they're still, they're still talking, right? And what happens to us, strangely, and this comes back to the logic of evolution, we never stop because evolution never thought to build us an off switch for this, right? I mean, the language is so useful and it gets tuned up so strongly for us. And there was never a reason to shut it off, right? There's never a reason to give you this ability to say, I wouldn't be nice to have four hours of quiet now, like no self-talk.
你进来时，他们仍在交谈，对吧？奇怪的是，这与进化的逻辑有关，我们从未停止过，因为进化从未想到要为我们设计一个"停止开关"。语言对我们来说是如此有用，并且已经被我们极大地优化了。一直以来，都没有理由去关闭这种能力，对吧？没有理由让你能够说，我现在想要四小时的安静，没有自我对话。
And so for most of us, I mean, I think there are people who, for whatever neurological reason or, you know, idiosyncratic reason, undoubtedly there's, there'd be a neurological reason for it, don't have any self-talk. But for the, for most of us, we are covertly talking basically all the time. And, and there's an imagistic component of this for many people, you're, you're visualizing things as well. But there's just a lot of ton of white noise in the mind that feels a certain way.
对我们大多数人来说，我的意思是，我认为有些人由于神经学上的原因或其他特殊原因，可能没有自我对话的习惯，但肯定有神经学方面的原因。而对于我们大多数人来说，我们基本上一直在心里默默地进行自我对话。对许多人而言，这种自我对话还包含了视觉化的成分，也就是说，你会在脑海中想象一些东西。然而，心中还存在大量的“白噪音”，这种状态会产生特定的感觉。
And, you know, what I, what you discover in meditation. ultimately is that the self is what it feels like to be thinking without knowing that you're thinking, right? A thought arises, uninspected, and seems to just become you, right? So like, you and I are talking now, and you know, you're, you know, people are listening to us. They're, they're struggling to follow the train of this conversation because it is competing with the conversation that's happening in their heads, right? So they'll be saying something. And a person listening will say, well, what does that mean? Or like, oh boy, he just contradicted himself or like, you're, and there's a voice in your head that is also vying for your attention much of the time.
在冥想中，你会发现自我其实是这样一种感觉：思考却没意识到自己在思考。一个念头像是突然冒出来的，没有经过检视，就好像直接成为了你的一部分。比如，我们现在在交谈，而你知道有人在听我们说话，他们在努力跟上对话的思路，因为我们的谈话和他们脑中的自言自语在“竞争”。听的人可能会想，“这是什么意思？”或者“哦，他刚才是不是自相矛盾了？”在大多数时候，你的脑海中也有一个声音在争夺你的注意力。
And so it's, you know, the first discovery people make in meditation is that it's just so hard to pay attention to anything, the breath or mantra or the sound, whatever it is, because you're thinking every, you're thinking about the thing you need to do in an hour. And oh, it's so good that I downloaded this app. I'm like, this is really good. This is going to be good for me. But, and you're, but you're that, that chatter isn't showing up. You're not far back enough in the, in the, in the kind of the theater of consciousness. So as to see it emerge, it's, it is just sneaking up behind you.
在冥想中，人们首先发现的一件事情就是，真的是很难集中注意力在任何东西上——无论是呼吸、咒语，还是声音，不管是什么，因为你的思绪总是纷飞。你会想着一个小时后要做的事情，或者觉得，噢，下载这个应用真是太好了，我觉得这对我很有帮助。但这样喋喋不休的想法却没有真正显现出来，因为你的意识并没有退得足够远，以便看到它的出现，这些念头总是在不知不觉中悄悄地接近你。
And it feels like me again, right? It feels like when someone is thinking the thought, what the hell does that mean? Right? They're not seeing it as an emerging object in consciousness. It just feels like me. It just feels that that's, it is the, you know, subjectively, it's like the mind contracts around this appearance in consciousness. And it really is just, it is just as, you know, it's just a sound with the voice of the mind. If you actually can inspect it, it is, it is deeply inscrutable that we ever feel identified with our thoughts. I mean, how is it that we could be a thought?
这感觉就像是我自己，对吧？感觉就像当一个人想到“这到底是什么意思”时，对吧？他们并没有把它看作是意识中浮现的一个对象，而只是感觉这就是我。主观上，它就像心灵围绕着意识中的这一现象收缩。而实际上，这只是，呃，你知道的，这只是心灵之声里的一个声音。如果你真的去观察它，我们感到与自己的思想认同是非常费解的。我的意思是，我们怎么可能成为一个思维呢？
These thoughts, I thought just arises and passes away. And when you inspect it, when you go to inspect it, it's, it, you know, it unravels. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's the least substantial possible thing. And it could, but yet it could be a thought of self-hatred. You know, it could be a thought that, that unrecognized totally defines your, your mood, you know, it's like, I mean, just again, this, this all comes in kind of abstract, but, well, no, but I, but I think it, it's extremely concrete from the perspective of the neural circuits that we'll return to in maybe a few minutes.
这些想法，我意识到它们只是产生又消逝。当你仔细观察它们时，会发现它们会解开，看起来是最不具实质性的东西。然而，这些念头甚至可能是自我憎恨的想法，可能会在你未察觉时完全影响你的情绪。虽然这些听起来有些抽象，但我认为从神经回路的角度来看，它其实非常具体，我们可能过一会儿再回到这个话题。
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If you could elaborate a bit on this notion of internal chatter and external stimuli and the bridge between them because I think that for some people that might be intuitive, I think for others, it's not so obvious that language is ongoing in the backdrop. Because sometimes I think some people are more tuned into that language for some people. It's louder volume. For some people, it's more structured. I have a colleague at Stanford who's been on this podcast called Dicer Auth. He's like one of the preamies, like Bioengineers.
如果可以的话，请详细阐述一下内部交流、外部刺激以及两者之间的联系，因为对有些人来说，这可能是直观的，但对另一些人来说，语言在背景中的持续存在并不是那么明显。因为有时候，我认为有些人对这种语言更加敏感，有些人对此感受更强烈，有些人的内部语言更加结构化。我有一位在斯坦福的同事，他曾在这个播客上亮相，名叫Dicer Auth。他是一位非常出色的生物工程师。
He's also a psychiatrist and he doesn't call it a meditative practice. He has a practice where each evening after five kids are put down asleep. They're older now. But and in the quiet of the late hours of the night, early morning, he sits and forces himself to think in complete sentences with punctuation for an hour. This is the way that he has taught himself to structure his thinking because of the very fact that you're describing, which is that ordinarily, there is an underlying structure to what's internal, but it's disrupted by external events and these are typically it's not coherent enough to really make meaning from.
他也是一位精神科医生，但他并不称之为冥想练习。他有一个习惯，每天晚上把五个孩子都哄睡着后（他们现在已经大一些了），在夜深人静的时光里，他坐下来，强迫自己用完整的句子和标点思考一个小时。这是他教自己如何组织思维的一种方法，正是因为你所描述的那个原因。通常情况下，我们内心有一个潜在的结构，但这个结构常常被外界事件打乱，而这些事件往往不够连贯，使我们难以从中找到意义。
So it's almost like somebody sitting down to write in complete sentences, but forcing himself to do it in his head. But for many people including myself, that's a foreign experience. And we only experience structure through our interactions with the world and other people. That if I were I've taken the time to try and explore ideas with eyes closed and you know, and I've been able to do that. There are certain pharmacologic states that we could talk about that facilitate that. And no, those are not amphetamines. Those do exactly the opposite by the way.
所以，这就像是一个人在脑海中强迫自己进行完整的句子写作。但对于包括我在内的很多人来说，这是一种陌生的体验。我们通常只是通过与世界和他人的互动来感受结构。如果我能腾出时间，闭上眼睛尝试探索一些想法，我能够做到这一点。在某些药理状态下，这种体验会变得更加容易。而不是通过使用安非他命，这类药物实际上会产生相反的效果。
But I think people exist in varying degrees of structured and unstructured internal dialogue and in varying depths of recognition of that internal dialogue. And so the question I suppose is, is just the recognition that there's a dialogue ongoing internally? Is that itself valuable? Yeah, and that also can take some time. So, so, I mean, so here's a claim I would make that some people might find surprising, but I think this is an objectively true claim about the subjectivity of most people, which is that unless you have a fair amount of training, let's just happen to be some kind of savant in this area, which most people by definition aren't.
我认为人们的内心对话存在不同程度的结构化和非结构化，也有对这种内心对话的认知深浅之分。那么我想问的问题是，单单意识到内心对话的存在是否有价值？这个过程可能需要一些时间。我想提出一个可能让人感到惊讶的观点，但我认为这是关于大多数人主观认识的一个客观事实：除非你受过相当多的训练，或者恰好是该领域的某种天才，但大多数人按定义都不是这种情况。
Or you have a remarkable amount of training in what's called concentration practice and meditation. I believe this is a true claim that if we just put a stopwatch on this table and people could just watch it, you know, the 30 seconds elapsed. And I set, you know, I set all of our listeners or your viewers the task. For the next 30 seconds, just pay attention to anything your breath, you know, or the sight of your hand or the sight of the clock or any object without getting lost in thought, without getting momentarily distracted by this conversation you're having with yourself.
或者你在所谓的专注练习和冥想方面接受了大量训练。我相信这是一个真实的说法：如果我们就在这张桌子上放一个秒表，然后让人们观看，看到30秒流逝。我给所有的听众或观众一个任务。在接下来的30秒内，只需专注于任何东西，比如你的呼吸，或者你手的样子，或钟表的外观，或任何物体，而不被自己的思绪所迷惑，不被与你自己进行的对话片刻分心。
This, a couple of things would happen. One is no one would be able to do it. Right? And not just this is not just a superficial inability. I mean, if your lights depended on it, you wouldn't be able to do it. I mean, if the fate of civilization depended on it, none of none of our listeners would be able to do this. And yet some percentage of them are so distracted by thought that they would think that they will actually try this experiment and think they succeeded.
在这种情况下，会发生几件事。首先，没有人能够做到这一点，对吧？这不仅仅是表面上的能力不足。我是说，即使你的生命维持系统取决于此，你也无法做到。甚至如果整个人类文明的命运取决于此，我们的听众中也没有一个人能够做到。然而，仍有一部分人会被他们的想法分散注意力，他们会觉得自己可以尝试这个实验，并认为他们成功了。
Right? And for these people, what what happens is you put them on a meditation retreat and you have them spend 12 hours a day in silence doing nothing but this. Right? So the practice is just pay attention to the breath when they're sitting and then eventually that you know, you incorporate everything sounds and other sensations. And then you interleave that with walking meditation with our paying attention just at the sensations of lifting and moving and placing their feet.
对吧？对于这些人来说，你让他们参加一个冥想静修，每天在安静中度过12个小时，只做这件事情。对吧？这个练习就是在坐着的时候专注于呼吸，然后逐渐地，你把注意力扩展到所有声音和其他感觉上。接着，你把这个练习与行禅交替进行，专注于提起、移动和放下双脚时的感觉。
And then you know, once the practice is going, you incorporate sounds and sites and everything. But so you can pay attention to everything. But the goal is for every moment you are going to cultivate this this faculty of mine, which you know, increasingly is known as mindfulness. Right? So and mindfulness is nothing other than this very careful attention to the contents of consciousness.
然后你知道，一旦练习开始，你就要把声音、景象和所有事物都融入进来，这样你就能关注所有事物。但目标是在每一个时刻，你都能培养出这种能力，也就是我们越来越熟知的“正念”。对吧？其实，正念就是对意识内容的细心关注。
But the crucial pieces, it is not a moment of being lost in thought. Right? You're not you're not blocking thoughts. Thoughts themselves can arise. But in those moments of being truly mindful, you're noticing thoughts as thoughts whether they're whether it's language in the mind or images, you're noticing those two as spontaneous appearances and consciousness.
关键是，这并不是在思想中迷失的时刻，对吧？你并没有阻止思想的出现。思想本身可以浮现。但在真正专注的时刻，你会把思想当作思想来注意到，无论是心中的语言还是影像，你都把它们看作是意识中自发出现的现象。
So most people, you know, certainly anyone who thinks they can pay attention to, you know, they can do the experiment successfully that I just suggested pay attention to something for 30 seconds without being lost in thought. You put those people on a meditation retreat. What they're going to experience is, you know, on the first day, they're going to feel like, oh yeah, I was, you know, I was with the breath or I was walking, you know, I was with the sensations of walking.
所以，大多数人，你知道，尤其是那些认为自己可以集中注意力的人，认为他们可以成功地完成我刚才建议的实验，即在30秒内全神贯注于某件事情而不走神。把这些人带到冥想静修中。第一天，他们会感觉到：“哦，我确实注意到了呼吸，或者走路的时候体验到了行走的感觉。”
And I'd be there for like five minutes, you know, solid and then I would get lost in thought. Then I'd come back, you know, five more minutes, it'd be lost in thought and I'd get back. But as the days progressed, you know, even, you know, 10 days into a silent meditation retreat, they're going to experience more and more distraction. They're going to it's going to seem like, okay, wait a minute. Now I can't pay attention to anything for more than five seconds. Right? That is progress, right? Because what they're discovering is just how distractable they are, right? And, you know, for some people, that will be immediately obvious, for some people, it'll actually take a lot of practice to realize just how distracted they are.
我会在那里专注五分钟左右，然后就会走神。然后再回来，再专注五分钟，又走神，再回来。随着时间推移，即便是在静默冥想修行的第十天，人们会感受到越来越多的分心。他们会觉得自己好像连五秒钟都无法集中注意力。没错，这其实是进步。因为他们发现了自己的专注力有多容易被打断。对有些人来说，这一点很容易察觉；而对另一些人来说，则需要大量的练习才能意识到自己的分心程度。
What you just said, which was that at some point, we can start noticing our thoughts. I can notice my thoughts, but what you're talking about is as a goal state is not, is not being distracted by thoughts, but actually seeing the relationship between thoughts, self and other types of perceptions. And here, I think recognizing and seeing thoughts is a form of perception. It's just an internally directed perception. This raises a topic that I'm also obsessed by, which I think neuroscience can somewhat explain, but still incomplete, incompletely, that the circuits and mechanics, etc, are not yet known, which is about time perception.
你刚才说的是，我们可以在某个时候开始注意到自己的想法。我可以注意到我的想法，但你所说的目标状态不是被想法分心，而是实际上看到想法、自我和其他类型感知之间的关系。在这里，我认为识别和察觉想法是一种感知形式，只不过是内部指向的感知。这引出了一个我特别关注的话题，我认为神经科学可以在某种程度上解释，但仍不完整，因为我们还不知道涉及的电路和机制等细节，这个话题就是关于时间感知。
And, you know, a simple analogy would be that there are a lot of small objects flying around in the space that we happen to be having this discussion, but they're moving so fast that I can't perceive them, or they're entirely stationary, so I can't perceive them because of the reasons we talked about before in the visual system. My eyes are moving in perfect concert with these small object movements, and therefore they are, I am blind to them. A slight shift in time perception, think of this, perhaps as a change in the frame rate. Camera frame rate, faster frame rate, you can capture slow motion, slower frame rate, you're going to get more of a strobe type effect if the frame rate is low enough.
打个比方，我们现在讨论时，太空中有许多小物体在飞行，但它们速度太快，我看不见它们，或者它们完全静止，我也看不见它们，因为我们之前提到的视觉系统的原因。我的眼睛以完美的同步跟随这些小物体的运动，因此我对它们视而不见。试想一下，时间感知中的细微变化，就像改变相机的帧率一样。帧率快，可以捕捉慢动作；帧率慢，如果足够低，就会出现频闪效果。
Could it be that our time perception is not one thing, but we have one rate of perceiving time for external objects at a given distance, which we know is true. Another frame rate for objects that are up close, we know this to be true, even if those objects are moving at the exact same speed, right? I mean, this would be the sitting on a train, the rungs on the fence seem to be going by very, very fast, but the ones in the distance seem to be moving slowly. This is the way the visual system and time perception interconnect at some level. You're up on a skyscraper, the little ants of cars and people down below. You know they're moving much faster than you perceive them to move, but it's a distance effect.
我们的时间感知可能并非单一的，不同距离的外部物体可能有不同的时间感知速度，这是我们知道的事实。我们也知道，对于近处物体，即使它们移动得一样快，我们的感知速度也会有所不同。例如，当你坐在火车上时，窗外近处的栅栏会快速掠过，而远处的物体却似乎移动得很慢。这体现了视觉系统和时间感知在某种程度上的相互关联。当你在摩天大楼上俯视时，下面的汽车和行人看起来像小蚂蚁一样，尽管你知道它们实际移动速度比看起来要快得多，但这是距离造成的视觉效应。
You see a plane, it's going to be going 300 miles an hour. And it's not because of the lack of resolution. The lack of resolution is incidental. We know this because in animals such as hawks that have twice the degree of acuity, as far as we know they have the same distance associated shifts in time perception. So could it be that we are running multiple streams of time perception, multiple cones of attention, that include cones of attention to our thoughts, and that somehow through meditation we start to align the frame rate for these different streams of attention so that they all fall into the same movie, if you will, although it's not just a movie with visual content.
你看到一架飞机，它的速度将达到300英里每小时。不过，这并不是因为缺少清晰度导致的。清晰度的不足只是个小细节。我们知道这一点是因为像鹰这样的动物，它们的视觉敏锐度是我们的两倍，但据我们所知，它们在距离上的时间感知变化与我们相同。那么，是否可能我们在运行多个时间感知的“流”，即多个注意力的“锥体”，其中包括对我们思想的注意力的“锥体”？通过冥想，我们是否能让这些不同的注意力流的帧速率达到一致，从而使它们融入同一个“电影”，尽管这不仅仅是一个有视觉内容的电影？
What I'm doing here is clearly I'm becoming a lumper rather than a splitter. I'm sure this violates certain rules of time perception, neural circuitry, but I'm not sure that it's entirely untrue either. And does it survive at all as a possible model for what you're describing? And if the answer is no, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. Well, it's dependent on what you mean by meditation. This is where you sort of the particularities of what one is doing with one's attention under the frame of meditation really matter because there are ways to practice where practice mindfulness in particular where the frame rate really does seem to go way, way up.
我现在所做的显然是更倾向于“合并”而非“分解”。我确信这可能违反某些关于时间感知和神经回路的规则，但我也不完全认为它是错误的。至于这种模型是否可以适用于你所描述的情况，如果答案是否定的，也没关系。这实际上取决于你所理解的“冥想”。在冥想的框架下，一个人如何处理注意力的细节至关重要，因为在某些练习中，尤其是正念冥想中，似乎注意力集中程度会显著提高。
And there's actually been some research done on this where you take people before and after a three month silent meditation retreat and you give them some kind of visual discrimination task where they have to detect, I think they used it to kiss to scope. Is that the tool for there's some, some of them presents, you know, like very quick pulses of light. In any case, you can you can discriminate just in any, in any sensory channel I would imagine you can make finer grain discriminations if you're practicing mindfulness in a very specific way, which is to be making these fine grain discriminations more and more and do nothing else for three months, which is a way of practicing.
有一些研究专门针对这种情况，即人们在参加一个为期三个月的静默冥想闭关前后进行测验。研究人员给他们安排了一项视觉辨别任务，我记得他们使用了一种叫做kiskoscope的工具，这个工具可能会以非常快速的闪光形式呈现一些刺激。不管怎样，我想当你以一种非常特殊的方式练习正念时，你就可以在任何感官通道中做出更细微的区分。具体来说，如果在这三个月里只专注于进行这些细微辨别的练习，并不做其他事情，这就是一种练习方法。
So you're, so the classic mindfulness practice in what's called the Vapastana meditation is to pay scrupulous attention to seeing hearing, smelling, tasting, touching in a way that breaks everything down into the, it's kind of microscopic sensory moments. So, you know, you're rather than feel your, you know, your hands pressing together, what you're trying to feel with your attention and your feeling more and more is all of the micro sensations of pressure and temperature and movement such that the feeling of hands completely disappears. You realize that hand is a concept and all you have is this cloud of, of punctate and, and very brief sensations.
经典的正念练习，也就是所谓的内观禅修，要求我们仔细关注视觉、听觉、嗅觉、味觉、触觉，逐渐将所有感知分解为微观的感官瞬间。举例来说，你不仅仅是感受到双手的接触，而是通过集中注意力不断深入体会所有微小的压力、温度和运动的感觉，这样一来，双手作为一个整体的感觉就消失了。你会意识到“手”其实只是个概念，真正存在的是这些瞬时且细小的感觉集合。
And so, so anything you think you, you, you have as a data of experience, as you, as you bore into it with your attention, it, it resolves into a, a, this kind of di, di, diaphanous cloud of changing sensation. And that can be even, even something as, as, um, captivating as like a, you know, a serious pain in your body. I mean, you can have like a, you know, you could have injured your neck, you know, and you have some excruciating pain in your neck. If you just are willing to pay attention to it, you know, and just pay a hundred percent attention to it, um, your, a couple things happen.
所以，无论你认为自己拥有的任何经验数据，当你集中注意力深入观察时，它就会化为一种不断变化的、薄雾般的感知。即便是像严重的身体疼痛这样的事情也是如此。比如，你可能颈部受伤，感到极度疼痛。如果你愿意全神贯注地关注这个疼痛，并投入百分之百的注意力去感受，会发生几件事情。
One is your resistance to feeling it goes away by definition, because you're, now your goal is to just pay attention to it. And, and you recognize that so much of the suffering associated with the pain was born of a, of the resistance to feeling it. You're kind of, you're bracing against it and all of your thinking about it, you know, you're thinking like, well, well, you know, why did I do this to myself or when, and should I see a North of Peter's or why, how long is this going to last? And, and you're, you know, maybe I herniated a disc, like all of that self talk is producing an anxiety.
当你开始专注于感受痛苦时，你会发现对痛苦的抵触自然会消失。这是因为你意识到，许多与痛苦相关的折磨其实源于不愿去真正感受它。你总是试图抗拒它，并且不断在脑海中思考，比如：为什么我会这样对待自己？我该不该去看北方的医生？这会持续多久？也许我得了椎间盘突出？所有这些自我对话都会带来焦虑。
And, you know, I'm not saying there's never anything to think about there, but, you know, either you can do something about it in the moment or you can't and so much of our suffering in, in the presence of pain is the result of resisting it, worrying about it. Think it's just all of the, everything we're doing with our minds, but just, it's just feeling it, right? So when you just feel it, again, it, it, it breaks apart into this, this ever change, ever shifting collection of, different sensations and it's not one thing and it never stays the same and it's, and so there's two things happen there.
你知道，我不是说这里完全没有令人思考的东西，但是，要么你能立刻做点什么，要么你不能，而我们在痛苦中感受到的很多痛苦，实际上是因为我们在抵抗它、担心它。这一切都是因为我们的思维，但其实只需要去感受它。当你只是去感受，痛苦就会分解成各种不断变化的不同感觉，它不是一个固定的东西，也不会一直保持不变，因此会产生两种结果。
One is there can be a tremendous, a tremendous amount of relief that happens there where you, you, you can achieve a level of equanimity even in the presence of really unpleasant, you know, physical sensation. And this is true of mental sensation as well, so it's true of emotions, you know, the classically negative emotions like anger, depression, or, fear, the moment you become willing to just feel them in all of their, you know, punctate and changeable qualities, they cease to be what they, they wore a moment ago. They're just, they're, and they, when you're talking about emotional states, they cease to map back on to you and your self-concept as meaningful in the same way.
有一种情况是，当你在面对非常不舒服的身体感觉时，仍然能够获得平静，这会带来极大的解脱感。这同样适用于心理感觉，比如情绪，包括那些传统上被认为是负面的情绪，如愤怒、抑郁或恐惧。当你愿意去感受它们所有的细微变化时，它们立刻就不再像之前那样让你感到困扰。特别是当你在谈论情绪状态时，它们不再像以前那样影响你的自我认知和意义。
So that suddenly, you know, the anxiety you feel, let's say before going out on stage to give a talk, you know, a moment ago, it was, it had psychological meaning and felt like, you know, okay, I'm anxious, how do I get rid of this, you know, why am I this sort of person, what, you know, should I have taken a beta block or, you know, this is the, the conversation you're having with yourself, the moment you just become willing to feel it as the pure energy of, you know, the physiology of, you know, of cortisol release, it, ceases to have any meaning.
所以，突然之间，你意识到自己在上台演讲前感到的焦虑，一开始是有心理意义的，让你想：“好吧，我很焦虑，我该怎么消除这种感觉？为什么我会是这样的人？我是不是应该吃点药阻断这种感受？”这是你和自己对话的内容。但一旦你愿意将这种感觉视为单纯的生理现象，比如皮质醇释放的能量，这种焦虑就不再具有任何意义了。
It just, it, it, it, it ceases to be a problem in that moment because it's no more, it no more maps onto the kind of person you are than a feeling of indigestion or a pain in your, in your knee maps onto the kind of person you are. It's just, it's, it's, it's just sensation. Anyway, but back to the main point here, which is that if you train your attention in this way to notice the particularities of, of sensory experience and emotional experience, like you're looking for the atoms of experience, you know, you get better and better at that and certain things happen.
在那一刻，这个问题就不再是问题了，因为它和你是谁没有关系，就像消化不良或膝盖疼痛也和你是谁没有关系一样。它只是感觉而已。无论如何，回到主要观点，如果你以这种方式训练自己的注意力去察觉感官体验和情感体验的细节，就像在寻找经验的原子一样，你会越来越擅长这样做，并且会发生某些变化。
But one thing that, you know, one thing that I really do, do think happens is there's a kind of frame rate change in, in the, the data stream where you really are just, you're just noticing much, much more. All of that is a very interesting way of training. It's not what I tend to recommend now. I mean, it's, it's a great preliminary practice for what I do recommend because it gives you, it really, it really teaches you the difference between being lost and thought and not. It really teaches you what mindfulness is. But it tends to be done, you know, by, you know, 99.9% of, of people in a dualistic way, which you're, again, you're, you're set up to think, okay, I'm over here as the locus of attention, you know, and I'm continually getting distracted by thought.
但有一件事情，我真的认为会发生，那就是在数据流中好像出现了一种帧速率的变化，你会注意到更多的东西。这是一种非常有趣的训练方式。虽然这不是我现在倾向于推荐的方法，但它作为我所推荐方法的初步练习是很有价值的，因为它确实教会了你迷失在思绪中和没有迷失的区别。它确实教会了你什么是正念。但是，99.9%的人往往以一种二元的方式进行这种练习，这种方式让你觉得自己是注意力的焦点，并且总是被思绪分散注意力。
And the project is to not do that anymore and actually pay attention to the breath and sounds and sensations. And, and every time I get lost in thought, I'm going to go back here. But this whole dance of, I've lost in thought. Now I'm, now I'm strategically directing my attention again. All of this seems to ramify this sense of self, the sense of, of, there's one to be doing this. There's, there's somebody holding the spotlight of attention and getting better at coming back to the object of meditation. Again, it's inevitable that 99.9% of people are going to start there and stay there for some considerable period of time.
这个项目就是不再那样做，而是真正关注呼吸、声音和感觉。每当我陷入沉思时，我就会回到这里。但是这种过程——我陷入沉思，然后又有意识地引导我的注意力——似乎都在强化自我的感觉，感觉有一个人在做这些事，有一个人在掌控注意力的焦点，并且越来越擅长回到冥想的对象。事实上，99.9%的人都会从那里开始，并在相当长的一段时间内停留在那里。
But the thing I like to do when I talk about all of this is undercut the false assumptions that are anchoring all of that as early as possible. Because where, where, where I think you want to be is recognizing that there is no place from which to aim attention, right? This whole dualistic setup of subject and object is the thing that is already not there. And it's not that you, it's not that it's there and you meditate it out of existence successfully. It's really not there. And if you, if you learn how to look for it, you can see that it's not there and feel that it's not there. And it no longer seems to be there, right?
当我讨论这些时，我喜欢尽早揭穿所有相关的错误假设。因为我认为，你应该意识到，没有一个特定的地方是用来集中注意力的。这个关于主体和客体的二元对立本来就不存在。这并不是说它存在，而你通过冥想把它消除掉。它确实不存在。如果你学会如何去观察，你会发现它的确不存在，并且能感受到它的不存在，它不再显得存在，对吧？
It's like it's, it's not, and it becomes like, again, like a by stable percept where you looked at it long enough and you thought, okay, now I see the vase and the face and I can't unsee it. And every time I look, it's there again, right? And so yeah, I mean, so to come back to the example you gave with your, your colleague at Stanford, whose book I know I have, I haven't read it. This is the, he wrote a book of projections, right? Deseratia. So it's on my stack to read. But it's the opposite that what I'm recommending essentially the opposite end of the continuum of the sort of internal exercise he was, he was doing.
这句话的意思是这样的：就像是某种双稳态的感知现象，你看够久之后，会发现其中既有花瓶又有人脸，而无法再忽略掉。这种印象会在每次观察时重新出现。回到你提到的例子，说到你在斯坦福的同事写的一本我知道但还没看过的书，书名可能是《Deseratia》。这书在我的待看书单中。但我推荐的东西与他所做的那种内在练习是沿着连续统的相反方向进行的。
So rather than, so you know, he's doing something very deliberate and controlled. And he's, you know, he is deliberately thinking in complete sentences and kind of common daring the, you know, the, the machinery of thought and attention in a way that I would imagine, I mean, I'd be interested to talk to him about it, but I would imagine he really feels like he's doing that, right? And there's, there's an engineer, it's, you know, it's as you describe it in this way, it reminds me, he's, he's a physician, but he's also an engineer. So it's really about taking the raw materials of thought and engineering something structured from it. Right. Right. You know, I haven't been in Carl's mind. Yeah, but if we got him talking on that, we would, I'm sure we would get a, yes, whatever we'll do that conversation at some point. But but it's exactly opposite. What is that opposite? It would be to recognize that the sense of control is a total illusion, right?
因此，与其说他是在漫无目的地做事，不如说他在非常刻意和有控制地进行。他在故意地用完整的句子思考，并以我想象中的方式完全掌控思维和注意力的机制。我很想和他聊聊这个，我猜想他真的觉得自己是在这样做。而且，有一个工程师，你知道，当你这样描述的时候，这让我想起，他是一名医生，但同时也是一位工程师。这就是说，从思维的原材料中，构建出某种结构化的东西。对吧。你知道，我并没有真正进入过卡尔的思维，不过如果我们让他谈论这个话题，我相信我们会得到一个肯定的答案，我们会在某个时间进行这样的对话。但这恰恰相反。相反的是什么？那就是要认识到这种控制感完全是一种错觉。
It could, because you don't know what you're going to think next, right? And even he in the most laborious way, I mean, he could, he could just get as muscular as he wants with it. He still doesn't know what he's going to think next, right? Thought, because thoughts simply arise, right? Like, you know, you know, you can run this experiment for yourself and this connects up to the topic of a free will, which we might want to touch. But I mean, just think of any category of thing. You know, if I asked you to think of, you know, the names of cities or of, you know, friends you have or of famous people, you, you can, you know, remember exist or think of nouns or, you know, you know, anything. And just watch what comes percolating into consciousness, right? Now, there's, there are things you can't think of, right? There are things you don't know the name of, you know, their languages you don't speak. There is, there are famous people you've never seen or never heard of, right?
这可能发生，因为你不知道自己接下来会想到什么，对吧？即便他用尽全力，想要全力以赴，他仍然不知道自己接下来会想到什么，对吧？思维就是这样自然而然地产生的。你可以自己做这个实验，这也与自由意志的话题相连，我们可能想要谈论这个。但我指的是，想想任何类别的事物。比如说，如果我让你想到城市名称、朋友的名字或者你记得的名人，或者一些名词，或者你知道的任何事物，并观察哪些想法浮现在你的意识里。现在，有些事情是你想不出来的，比如你不知道名称的东西，你不会的语言，还有那些从未见过或听过的名人。
So like, so you have no control over that part. Like those, those names and faces are not going to suddenly come streaming into consciousness. But of the totality of facts and figures and faces and names that you do know, right? Only some will come vying for inclusion, right? And they're not, and there's, there's a sort of, you know, we could make guess that we know something about the neurology of this, but we, you know, depending on what channel your, your, your waiting for thoughts in, I mean, it's going to be different if it's visual or semantic or, or episodic memory and all of these, things are different. But wherever you kind of point your inner gaze of attention and wait for the next face or name, certain things are going to come and certain, certain things aren't going to come.
所以呢，对于那些部分你是没法掌控的。那些名字和面孔不会突然间涌入你的意识。但是在你所知道的所有事实、数字、面孔和名字中，只有一部分会争着被记起，对吧？我们可以猜测，我们对这个过程的神经学有一些了解，但具体来说，这取决于你是通过哪些渠道在等待想法的进入。也就是说，如果是视觉、语义或者情景记忆，可能就会有所不同。但是无论你将内心的注意力集中到哪里，等待下一个名字或面孔出现，某些东西会出现，而某些则不会。
And how you land on one, right? There'll be this process. If you're paying attention, you might think, we'll say we go with names of cities, right? You just, you'll think of Paris, you'll think of London, you'll think of Rome, you'll think of Sedona, you'll think, so these names will come. And if I ask you to just say one, right? So just, Minneapolis is what came to mind. For me, it was very straightforward. It was Minneapolis, the famous person was Joe Strummer, and they just, like, I can give you reasons why I think those came to mind, recent conversations. Okay. So, so, so whatever, so we know, we know, if fair about a, fair bit about much of this. So, one, we know that your reasons, you know, obviously could be right or wrong. They're very likely to be wrong because we have this sort of confabulatory storytelling mechanism even in an intact brain, where we just, you know, we all seem to never lack for the reasons why something came to mind.
当你选定一个的时候，是怎么做到的呢？会有一个过程。如果你在留意，你可能会想，说我们以城市名字为主题，对吧？你会想到巴黎，想到伦敦，想到罗马，想到塞多纳，这些名字会浮现出来。如果我让你随便说一个，可能你就会说出“明尼阿波利斯”。对我来说，这个过程很直接。我想到的是明尼阿波利斯，名人是乔·斯特拉默，我可以告诉你为什么我会想到这些，可能与你近期的谈话有关。好的，所以不管怎样，我们知道很多关于这方面的事情。一方面，我们知道你的理由可能是对的，也可能是错的。很可能是错的，因为即使在一个正常的大脑中，我们也有一种虚构故事的机制，我们似乎总能为为什么某件事情会浮现在脑海中找到理由。
And we know, we can know, we can manipulate people in ways that prove that people are just reliably wrong and confident, you know, confidently so about the reasons why they thought of things or did things. But leaving that aside, even if you're completely accurate, right? There are, there are people's names, who you know, and city's names that you know, that inexplicably just didn't come to mind. And if we ran this experiment again and again and again, they wouldn't come to mind if your brain was in precisely the state it was in a moment ago. If we could return your brain to the state it was in a moment ago, correcting for, you know, all the deterministic changes and all the random changes that would have to, you know, be corrected for it, just get all the synapses and the synaptic weights and, you know, everything in the state it was in to produce Joe Strummer and Minneapolis, right?
我们知道，我们可以了解到，也可以通过某些方法影响他人，从而证明人们在很多情况下自信却错误地理解他们的想法或行为背后的原因。但先撇开这个不谈，即便你对某些事情有着完全准确的认知，也可能会出现这样的情况：你明明知道某个人的名字或者某个城市的名字，但就是怎么也想不起来。如果我们反复进行这个实验，并且让你的大脑完全回到之前的状态，他们依然会不出现在你的记忆中。假设我们能够让你的大脑恢复到刚才的状态，考虑到需要纠正所有确定性和随机性变化，把所有突触、突触权重等一切恢复到当时的状态，比如能让你回忆起Joe Strummer和明尼阿波利斯的状态。
You're going to, if we rewind that movie, that, you know, that part of the movie of your life, you are going to say Joe Strummer and Minneapolis a trillion times in a row, right? So, this is why, in my view, the notion of free will makes absolutely no sense, right? And you can add as much randomness to that process as you want. It still doesn't get you the freedom people think they have. another conversation to have about, you know, why none of that matters and why things only get better once you admit to yourself that free will is no illusion. And yes, you can get in shape and you can die and you can do all the things you want to do and you don't have to think about free will. But the, from a, from a contemplative, meditative point of view, the thing to notice is that everything is just springing into view, right?
如果我们把你生活的电影倒放，那一段你会不停地提到 Joe Strummer 和明尼阿波利斯，对吧？所以，从我的角度来看，自由意志的概念完全没有意义。即使你往这个过程中添加再多的随机性，依然不会给你带来人们所认为的那种自由。我们可以另外展开一个讨论，探讨为什么这些都无关紧要，以及为什么一旦你承认自由意志是幻觉，事情反而会变得更好。是的，你仍然可以锻炼身体，可以死亡，可以做你想做的所有事情，而不必纠结于自由意志的问题。但从冥想或沉思的角度来看，值得注意的是，一切都只是自然地显现出来。
You're like, there's no place from which you are authoring your next thought because you would have to think it before you think it, right? Like, like, there is just, there is just this fundamental mystery at our backs that is discouraging everything that we experience. What if I'm speaking? So if I'm talking about something and I have some command of that information, I can often sense what I'm going to say next and then find myself saying it. Hopefully that's what I'm saying, not something else. I certainly said things I didn't intend to say or never thought I would say in life. But when engaged in speech or action, it at least gives us the illusion, I think, that we somehow have more command over our thoughts.
你会觉得，在你产生下一个想法之前，并没有一个明确的地方决定你的想法，因为你得在想到它之前先去想，对吧？这就像我们背后有一个根本的谜团，影响着我们所经历的一切。如果我在说话，谈论一些我比较了解的信息时，我常常能预感到自己接下来要说什么，然后就自然而然地说出来。希望我说出的真是我想说的，而不是其他什么话。当然，我也曾说出一些我原本没打算说，甚至从未想过会说的话。但当我们进行交流或行动时，至少给了我们一种错觉，让我们觉得对自己的想法有更多的掌控。
Well, you have a script. I mean, it's like, there are things you know a lot about and you've talked to, you've talked about them a lot and you know you have the things you want to say about those things and the things you, you don't want to say or you wouldn't want to say. And you know, you can, you know, it still is a bit of a high-wire act because you can misspeak or you can fail to get to the end of a sentence in a grammatically correct way. And, and again, all of the subjectively, this whole process is mysterious to you, right? Like you, you don't know how you follow the rules of English grammar, right?
你有一份脚本。就是说，有一些你非常了解的事情，你也谈论过很多次，并且你知道自己想说什么以及不想说什么。不过，这仍然有点像走钢丝，因为你可能会说错话，或者无法用正确的语法完成一个句子。而且，从主观上来说，这整个过程对你而言是神秘的，对吧？就好像你不知道自己是如何遵循英语语法规则的。
Like the, like, you're just, your tongue is doing it somehow and, you know, and when it fails, it fails and you're just as surprised as the next guy that it failed. And, you know, you miss pronounced a word and okay, I don't know what happened there, but it's, if it keeps happening, I'm going to worry I had a stroke and you know, it stops. I'm, I'm going to, you know, I'm not going to worry about it. So it's still mysterious even when you're doing it in a very, um, wrote, deliberative and repetitive way. But when, when you're talking about something, you've talked about a lot and you know, you sort of know where you're going to go, right?
像是这样，你的舌头在运作，但是你也不太清楚具体怎么做到的。而当它出错时，你就像其他人一样感到惊讶。比如你不小心把一个词念错了，然后你也不知道发生了什么。如果这种情况一直发生，我会担心是不是中风了。但如果它停了，我就不会再担心。所以即使当你用非常重复、刻意的方式在说话时，它仍然是个谜。但是，当你在谈论一些你非常熟悉的话题时，你大概知道自己要怎么表达。
Like, and this is, you know, we, we have many conversations like this. Um, it is somewhat analogous to like a golf swing where it's like, you know how you want to do it. It's going to be all kinds of errors that are going to creep into your execution of it in, in real time. But there's like, you basically have a pattern. And so you, you have certain linguistic patterns, which you're following. Um, again, none of this is a proof of, of free will, but I will grant you that, you know, phenomenologically it, it feels different than just waiting for the next thought to come.
这段话可以翻译成中文如下：
“就像这种情况，我们有很多类似的对话。这有点像打高尔夫，你知道自己想怎么打，但是在实际执行过程中，会出现各种各样的错误。虽然如此，但基本上你是有一个模式的。因此，你会遵循某些语言模式。同样，这并不能证明自由意志的存在，但可以肯定的是，从现象上来说，这种感觉和只是等待下一个想法出现是不同的。”
But my point is that, is that even if you're, um, you can trim it down to the simplest possible thing. I'm like, you take two things you like to drink, right? You may, you like, you like coffee and you like tea and you're deciding which to have, right? Both are on offer. You've got two cups in front of you. And, and the question is, you know, which, you know, or I hear I've got water and I've got coffee, which am I going to drink next? It's, it's incredibly, it's the simplest possible decision. And no matter how long I make this decision process, I could literally sit for an hour, trying to figure out which to reach for next. And I could have my reasons why and I could have my all myself talk. There's, there's going to be a final change in me that's going to be the proximate cause of me deciding one over the other.
但我的意思是，即使是最简单的事情，你也需要做出选择。比如说，你有两种喜欢喝的饮料，对吧？你喜欢咖啡，也喜欢茶，现在你需要决定喝哪种饮料。你面前有两杯饮品可供选择。有时你可能面临这样的选择：例如，我有水和咖啡，我下一步会喝哪个呢？这是一个极其简单的决定。无论我花多长时间来做这个决定，我都可以坐在那里一个小时，试图弄清楚接下来该喝什么。我可能有各种理由和自我对话，但最终在我内心会有一个变化，这促使我决定选择其中之一。
And that no matter how laborious I can make it seem in terms of my reasoning about it, um, it is going to be fundamentally mysterious as to why I went with one rather than the other, right? Whatever story I have, because it's like, it's, it's still going to be as mysterious as you thinking of Joe Strummer when you absolutely like you know of the existence of Marilyn Monroe just as much. And yet she simply didn't occur to you, right? It's like, it's, it's fundamentally mysterious. Like there are people who are even more famous than Joe Strummer to you, right? Who, who, I mean, I'm sure you, you know, you, you, you, maybe somebody who you have thought a lot about, but, but they're, they're people who like if we could just inventory, you know, your conscious life going back the last 10 years, they're people who you've thought about more than Joe Strummer, yet they didn't appear, right? So, and that's, that is mysterious, right? And they could have, but they didn't.
无论我在思考这个问题时多么费劲和复杂，从根本上来说，为什么我选择了这个而不是那个，依然是个谜。无论我怎么解释，就像你会突然想到乔·斯特拉默，而不是玛丽莲·梦露，即使你对她们的了解是一样的丰富，但当时梦露就是没有出现在你的脑海中。这种现象本质上是神秘的。就像有些人对你来说可能比乔·斯特拉默更有名，甚至是你经常思考的人。如果我们仔细回顾你过去十年的意识生活，可能有些人你想得比乔·斯特拉默还要多，但他们并没有在你的思维中出现。这种情况是神秘的，他们本可以出现，但没有。
And so, um, and what, what I'm saying is that this mystery never gets banished in our experience, whatever stories we have to tell about it. Like, because if the story is, oh, well, I went for the water because, um, I, you know, I, I think I've been drinking too much coffee, you know, I listened to Andrew Hubertman's podcast and he was talking about caffeine and I think I probably, it's good for us, but you don't want over. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let's say that is actually the causal chain. Like I listened to your podcast. You said something about caffeine. Now I'm, now I'm self-conscious about my coffee intake, right? But that's just, just adding a couple of links to the chain. There's still this fundamental mystery of well, why did I find that persuasive?
所以，我想说的是，无论我们有怎样的故事去解释，生活中的某些神秘感永远不会消失。比如说，我去喝水是因为我觉得自己咖啡喝多了。我听了Andrew Huberman的播客，他谈到了咖啡因，我觉得咖啡因对我们有好处，但不应该过量摄入。是的，假设这是事情发展的因果链：我听了播客，你讲了些关于咖啡因的事，现在我开始对自己的咖啡摄入有些敏感。但这只是给因果链增加了几个环节，仍然存在一个基本的谜题——为什么我会觉得这很有说服力呢？
And why, why did I find it persuasive now, and not five minutes ago when I was drinking the coffee, right? Like, why did I just remember it now or why was it effective now? Like, what, like, you, you only have your experience in every moment is precisely what it is and not one bit more. Like, and, and, and, and this subsumes even moments of real resolve and efforts and, you know, picking yourself up by your bootstraps and changing everything. It's like, you're on a diet and you're tempted to eat chocolate and you think you're about to reach and say, no, I'm not, I'm not breaking this diet. This diet is actually going to stick, right? Okay. Why did that arise in that moment and not at this analogous moment on your last diet, right?
为什么我现在觉得它具有说服力，而不是五分钟前在喝咖啡的时候呢？就像，为什么我现在才想起来，或者为什么它现在有效呢？就像，每一刻你所经历的都只是那一刻，绝对不会多一分。这甚至包括那些真正下定决心和努力、自己努力振作并想要改变一切的时刻。比如说，当你在节食时，你被巧克力诱惑，但你决定不去吃，并告诉自己：“不，我不会破坏这个饮食计划，这次一定要坚持下去。”那么，为什么这种决心会在这个时候产生，而不是在你上一次节食的类似时刻呢？
And why did it arise now to precisely the degree that it did? Why, why will it be as effective as it will be and have the half-life that it will have and not, you know, 10% more or less? Like, all of those are always mysterious to you. Well, could we give a, as we did before, an evolutionary and a developmental explanation? An evolutionary explanation might be that directed attention and action is metabolically demanding. It would be inefficient or impossible for us to be in constant, you know, deliberate action and with access to all the relevant information as to why we would do anything.
为什么它现在恰好以这样的程度出现呢？为什么它会如此有效，并有它所拥有的影响持续时间，而不是，比如说，多10%或少10%？这些问题总是让你感到困惑。我们是否可以像之前一样，给出一个进化和发展的解释呢？进化上的解释可能是，有意识的注意力和行动消耗大量能量。如果我们时刻都进行有意识的行动并获取所有相关信息来做任何事情，那会非常低效甚至不可能。
So our ideas literally spring to the surface at the last possible moment in order to offset the metabolic, the great metabolic requirements of having ideas that are related to goal-directed action or that goal-directed action is expensive. That's one idea. The other idea would be, and we know this as a fact, which is that initially the brain is fairly crudely wired. That's not true within the neural circuits, the control breathing, heart rate, etc. But within the neural circuits of sensory perception, thought, etc. they're fairly crudely wired.
我们的想法往往在最后一刻才显现出来，以满足与目标导向行为相关的大量代谢需求，因为这些行为代价高昂。这是一个观点。另一个观点是，我们知道一个事实，那就是大脑的初始连接相对粗糙。虽然控制呼吸、心率等的神经回路并不是这样，但在感知、思考等神经回路中，连接的确相对简单。
And then across development, there's a progressive pruning back and also in parallel to that, a strengthening of the connections that underlie directed action and thought. And here I don't mean directed as in free will. I mean, just that can, I can decide to imagine an apple and imagine that apple, for instance. There seems to be some maintenance of the random fine random wiring in systems. I mean, we've seen this even in worms in flies, in, you know, in so-called lower invertebrates. And lower vertebrates, and we see this in. humans. And it seems to be that there's a lot of background spontaneous activity. I mean, now some electrodes into the brains of humans, macaques, carnivores, and mice. And in every case, most of what you hear is called hash. And it has nothing to do with hashish, is just a monodio monitor, which is picking up a bunch of action potentials.
在发育过程中，神经系统会逐渐修剪冗余的连接，同时加强那些支撑有目的的行动和思维的连接。这里我所说的“有目的”并不是指自由意志，而是指比如我可以决定去想象一个苹果并成功想象出它。此外，系统中似乎保留了一些细微的随机连线。我们甚至在像蠕虫和苍蝇这样的低等无脊椎动物，以及低等脊椎动物中也观察到了这种现象。在人类中也是如此，这似乎表明存在大量的背景自发活动。通过现在插入人类、猕猴、食肉动物和小鼠的大脑中的电极，我们发现多数记录下来的其实是噪音信号，这和大麻没有关系，它只是监测多种动作电位的一个装置。
You hear listening to a chorus of action potentials. But it's rare to find a neuron that faithfully fires to represent some sensory stimulus in the world. And you can arrange that marriage experimentally so that you can arrive at those strong signal-to-noise events. But I was always struck by how much noise there is in the system all around all the time. And people argue, is the noise really noise, et cetera? And is it, you know, there's still a lot to debate about that. But I can imagine that some of the spontaneous nature of thoughts just relates to the fact that there's a lot of background spontaneous activity in the brain. Now why that is is a whole other discussion. But if I were to sort of set up two constraints that there's a lot of spontaneous activity, it's going to generate random thoughts.
你正在聆听的是一组动作电位的合唱, 但很少有神经元能够忠实地发射信号来代表世界中的某种感官刺激。你可以通过实验安排，使这种强烈的信噪事件得以发生。但是我总是被系统周围无处不在的大量噪音所震撼。人们争论，这些噪音真的是噪音吗，等等？对此的争论还很多。但我可以想象，某些自发性思维的产生可能与大脑中大量的背景自发活动有关。至于为什么会这样，那是另一个讨论的话题。但如果我需要设定两个条件，那就是大量的自发活动可能会产生随机的想法。
Thankfully, not much random action, although there's a little bit of random action in our daily lives. And then against that say, well, any deliberate thought or motion is going to be expensive, right? It's a metabolically expensive organ to begin with. And so you just have to, evolution has arrived at a place where spontaneous geysering up of things upon which like deliberate thoughts and action are super imposed is the best arrangement overall for this very metabolically demanding organ. Is that, is that, I mean, what I basically gave was just kind of a biological description of one just one narrow aspect of it. But can we get comfortable with that?
感谢地，我们日常生活中没有太多随机的动作，尽管有一些小的随机行为。相对而言，任何有意识的思考或行动通常都是昂贵的，因为大脑本身就是一个具有高代谢需求的器官。因此，通过进化，我们达到了一个状态：在这种状态下，自发涌现的想法和行为与有意识的思考和行动相结合，是对这个代谢需求很高的器官而言的最佳安排。我刚才的描述其实只是对这一现象的一个狭隘的生物学诠释，但我们能接受这样的解释吗？
And the reason I say get comfortable is that, you know, I'm here, I'm admittedly I'm forcing a little bit of a strip tease towards what I think I and everyone else wants to know, which is how to meditate and why in particular meditation convinces us that something doesn't necessarily have to be eliminated, but that was actually never there. I feel like we're we're now set up of sort of like almost like a you're not contradicting yourself by any means, but in my mind, there's a contradiction and here's the contradiction. I love this statement that meditation over time or done properly reveals to us that we're actually not trying to make the gap between actor and observer go away. It was actually never there.
我之所以说要让自己放松，是因为我在这里，坦诚地说，我有点像是在揭开面纱，揭示我和其他人都想知道的东西，那就是如何冥想，以及为什么冥想让我们相信某些事情其实并不需要被消除，因为它其实从未存在过。我觉得现在我们就像是准备好了，你并没有自相矛盾，但在我看来，这里有一个矛盾。我非常喜欢这样一种说法：长时间或正确地进行冥想会让我们意识到，我们实际上并不是在努力消除行动者和观察者之间的差距，因为这个差距实际上从未存在过。
To me, that's one of the more important statements that I've perhaps have ever heard and it inspires me to go further down this path of meditation because I've never experienced that. Not deliberately and certainly not through meditation. If I ever experienced it, it was transient enough that I, you know, I'm intrigued to to experience it more. So on the one hand, you're telling me something was never there and there's a profound experience to be had by anyone that's willing to do the work to arrive at that experience of the loss of that illusion. On the other hand, I'm hearing that there's a profound gap that really does exist, which is that we believe that our thoughts are somehow from us and indeed they're from in the cranial vault someplace, maybe in the body a bit as well, but that we over attribute the degree to which we are that and that is us in a way that's volitional that we control.
对我来说，这是我听过的最重要的说法之一，这激励我继续在冥想的道路上前进，因为我从未有过那种体验。不经意间，尤其不是通过冥想。如果我曾经体验过，那也是短暂的，以至于我对进一步体验充满好奇。那么，一方面，你告诉我一个原本不存在的事物，然而只要努力去消除这种错觉，就能获得深刻的体验。另一方面，我了解到一个真正存在的深刻差距，那就是我们相信自己的想法来自于自己，确实它们可能来自头脑中的某个地方，或许也来自身体的一部分，但我们过于将这些想法等同于自我，以为它们是我们可以控制的、是我们自愿选择的。
And so once I'm hearing that there's something, there's an illusion that we can eliminate and on the other hand, I'm hearing that there's an illusion that we can't eliminate and maybe these are unrelated and I'm bridging them in an unimportant way that seems only important to me, but somehow I can't resolve these two and maybe the thing to do then is, can we separate them in terms of a practice to witness them? That would allow us to resolve them separately. Right, so I think I'm hearing the problem, there's this, let me kind of brag at the whole free will discussion because it really is the flip side of this coin that I'm the obverse of which is the illusion of the self. So at least I might be on the right track, they are the opposite sides of a coin.
所以，当我听到我们能够消除的幻觉时，另一方面，我又听到一个我们无法消除的幻觉。也许这些是无关的，我以一种对我来说似乎重要但实际上不重要的方式把它们联系在一起，但无论如何我无法解决它们。也许可以尝试的做法是，将它们分开观察，以便分别解决。对，我觉得我抓住了关键，这让我想起了关于自由意志的讨论，因为它实际上是自我幻觉的另一面。所以至少我可能走在正确的轨道上，它们是同一个硬币的两面。
Yeah, because to me they seem very different in essence. No, because what I'm calling the sense of self and what people, what I think most people feel as their core sense of self is the feeling of, I mean, it's the feeling of being the locus of attention, but it's also the feeling of being the locus of agency. Like I can do the next thing. I like, who's doing this? Who's reaching for the cup? I am, right? I intended this and now I'm doing the thing. And my conscious intention is the proximate cause of my reaching. So I'm the author of my thoughts and actions essentially, and my specific uses of attention. So I can pay attention to the breath, I get lost in thought, I come back to the breath, but on some level the thoughts themselves are more of my doing something with almost an authorial intent. I'm thinking, what the hell is this guy talking about? I know who's thinking these thoughts I am.
是的，因为在我看来，它们在本质上非常不同。不是，因为我所说的自我意识，以及我认为大多数人感受到的核心自我意识，是一种成为注意力焦点的感觉，同时也是一种成为行动焦点的感觉。比如，我可以做接下来的事情。谁在做这个？谁在拿起杯子？是我，对吗？是我有这个意图，然后我在执行这个动作。我的意识意图是我拿杯子的直接原因。因此，从本质上说，我是我思想和行动的作者，以及我具体使用注意力的操作者。所以我可以专注于呼吸，迷失在思绪中，然后再回到呼吸，但在某种程度上，这些思绪更像是我以一种作者的意图在做某事。我在想，这个人到底在说什么？我知道是谁在思考这些——是我。
The person who really doesn't get what I'm saying is thinking something like that. It's like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? I know I'm here, I'm a self. I'm a body, I'm a mind. I can reach for things. These intentional actions are different from things that happen to me. A voluntary action is different from an involuntary one. Having a tremor is different from consciously deciding to pick up a glass. So obviously everything I'm saying about meditation and the self and free will in order to be a sane picture of a human mind and reality has to conserve the data of experience such that yes, I can acknowledge the difference between a tremor and a deliberative voluntary motor action.
真正不明白我在说什么的人可能会这样想："这家伙到底在说什么?" 他会认为自己很清楚自我存在，知道自己是一个具有身体和思维的人，可以主动做一些事情。主动行为和那些发生在自己身上的事情是不同的，像有意识地决定去拿杯子和肌肉震颤是不一样的。因此，我在讨论冥想、自我和自由意志时，必须承认这些关于人类心灵和现实的观点，要符合经验数据的逻辑。这样的话，我就可以承认肌肉震颤和经过深思熟虑的主动作之间的区别。
The things you do volitionally are different, not just psychologically and behaviorally, but they just have different implications in a court of law. You accidentally hit someone with your car or you did it on purpose. That's still a distinction that matters. Importantly, it tells us a lot about the global properties of your mind such that we have a sense of what you're likely to do in the future. If you're someone who likes running over people with your car, you're a psychopath who we need to worry about. If you're someone who did it by accident, well then you may be culpable for the level of negligence that allow that to happen, but you're a very different person and we treat you differently and we're wise to.
您自愿做的事情不仅在心理和行为上有所不同，而且在法律上也有不同的影响。比如，您是不小心用车撞到某人，还是故意这样做，这之间的区别依然很重要。重要的是，这让我们了解您心智的整体特性，以至于我们能够预测您未来可能会做什么。如果您是那种想用车故意撞人的人，那您就是一个需要我们担心的精神变态者。如果您是偶然发生这种事情，那么您可能会因为疏忽大意而承担一定责任，但您是一个完全不同的人，我们会以不同的方式对待您，而这样做是明智的。
So anyway, let's bracket all of that. There's some fundamental, there's some false assumptions about the underlying logic of this process, which I think is worth addressing. It was actually that there's a kind of found object in the news that I talk about at one point, I forget where it is in the waking up app, but there's a story that I stumbled on on the internet. I think it's about 12 or 13 years old of a tourist bus in, I think it was Norway, it was somewhere in northern Europe and it had about 30 people on it. One person was described as an Asian woman and they all, they went to a rest stop and everyone got off the bus and they shopped and had lunch and this Asian woman changed her clothing for whatever reason and they all got back on the bus.
好吧，不管怎样，先将所有这些放一边。关于这个过程的基本逻辑存在一些错误假设，我觉得值得探讨一下。我曾在网上偶然发现一个新闻，算是一种现成的素材，我在某个地方提到过这个例子，但忘记是在哪里，在那个叫“醒来”的应用里讲过。这个故事大约发生在12或13年前，在挪威还是北欧某地的一辆旅游巴士上，当时车上大约有30名乘客，其中一位被描述为亚洲女性。在一次停车休息中，大家都下了车去购物和吃午餐，而这位亚洲女性不知为何换了衣服，之后所有人都重新上了车。
I think the relevance of it being an Asian woman is that there were language barriers that explained what later happened. So everyone gets back on the bus, the Asian woman has changed her clothing and the bus is about to leave, but then someone notices, hey, there's, there was an Asian woman who got off the bus who hasn't come back yet and they tell the driver this and this poses a problem. So now everyone's waiting for this person to return, but in fact everyone was on the bus that this woman had just changed her clothing and was not recognized by her fellow travelers. So everyone gets concerned as this, this, this tourist doesn't, you know, show up and they start looking for, right, and they can't find her and so a search party is formed and the Asian woman, because of the whatever language barrier, heard that there was a missing tourist so she joins the search party, which in fact is looking for her, right, and this goes on into the night and they're ready in helicopters that, you know, for a dawn patrol to find the missing, missing tourist.
我认为这里提到是一位亚洲女性之所以重要，是因为语言障碍导致了后来的误会。事情是这样的：所有人都回到了公交车上，那位亚洲女性换了衣服，公交车准备出发。但这时有人注意到，有一位下车的亚洲女性还没回来，他们就告诉了司机，这成了一个问题。所以大家都在等她回来，但其实每个人都在车上，只是那位女性换了衣服，没有被同伴认出来。于是大家很担心，因为这位游客迟迟没有出现，他们开始寻找她，却找不到，于是组织了一支搜寻队。由于语言障碍，那位亚洲女性听到有人失踪了，于是加入了搜寻队，而实际上他们寻找的就是她本人。这个情况一直持续到晚上，他们甚至准备好了直升机进行黎明时的搜索。
Now at some point along the way, I think it was at like three in the morning, this tourist realizes that she is the object of this search, right, and obviously the whole thing unravels. She confesses that she changed her clothes and, you know, the problem is solved, but the problem is not solved by the logic that the seeker is expected, right, so it's like it's not true to say that the missing tourist was found in the way that was expected, right, because the missing tourist was never lost. The missing tourist was part of the search party, right, and so when you think about it from her point of view, like what happened, she's part of the search party, she's looking for the missing tourist, not knowing that she, in fact, is the missing tourist, so what happens at the moment she realizes that everyone's looking for her, right, like what is the search isn't consummated in the way that is implied by the logic of everyone's use of attention. And yet the problem evaporates, and there's something deeply analogous about the structure of that and the meditative journey, precisely in, again, not talking about all the changes and the possible changes in the contents of consciousness that could be good, which again, they come along for the ride anyway when you do the thing I'm talking about.
有一次发生这样的事，在某个时刻，大概是凌晨三点左右，一个游客意识到她自己其实是大家正在寻找的对象。显然，这种误会就此揭开。她承认自己换了衣服，于是问题就解决了。但问题的解决并不是循着搜寻者原本设想的逻辑进行的。换句话说，这名“失踪”的游客并不是通过预期的方法被找到的，因为她根本没有失踪。事实上，这名“失踪”的游客一直是搜救队的一员。从她的角度看，她是搜救队的一部分，正在寻找“失踪”的游客，却不知道她自己就是那个“失踪”的人。当她意识到大家都在找她时，发生了什么呢？搜索并没有按大家所倾注的注意力所暗示的那种方式完成，而问题却消失了。这种情况的结构与冥想的旅程有着深刻的相似之处。这里不是说意识内容可能发生的所有改变和可能带来的好处，而是当你进行我所说的冥想时，这些变化会自然地随之而来。
It's on this point of looking for the self and not finding it, and there is this sense that, okay, the self is here and it's a problem. It is the string upon which all of my conscious states, mostly unhappy ones, are strong, right, it's the thing that is at the center of my anxiety. It's the thing that I don't feel good about. It's the thing that when criticized, I sort of let implode. It's the center of my problem, and now I'm trying to feel better, and meditation has been handed to me as a possible remedy for my situation, and it's built as a remedy. In fact, I'm hearing from this guy that this is the thing that is going to cause me to realize that myself isn't where, or as I thought it was. So now I'm going to look, right, and so again, the sense is I start out far away from the goal here. I start out with a problem. I'm now meditating on the evidence of my unenlightenment, right? I can feel my problem. I feel that I'm distracted and distractable, and I feel as this sort of cramp at the center of my life that it's me, and I'm not as happy as I want to be. I'm not as confident as I want to be. I'm more distractable than I want to be, and now I'm paying attention to the breath, right?
在这一点上，我正在寻找自我却找不到，而且有一种感觉是，自我就在这里，它是一个问题。它就像是一根线把我所有的意识状态——大部分是不快乐的——串了起来。它是在我的焦虑中心的东西。它是让我不满意的东西。它是当我被批评时，我会崩溃的东西。它是我问题的中心，现在我正试图让自己感觉好一些，而冥想被推荐给我作为我情况的一个可能的解决方法，而这确实是一种解决方法。事实上，我听到有个人说这可能会让我意识到自我并不存在于我以为它存在的地方。所以现在我要开始寻找了，对吧，虽然从一开始，我就距目标很远。我从一个问题出发。现在我在冥想中反映出我的未开悟状态，我能感觉到我的问题。我感觉到自己容易分心，这种内心的紧张感让我意识到自己不如我想象中快乐，不如我想象中自信，比我希望的更容易分心。现在，我正在专注于呼吸。
This is what the search party feels like. This is what the confused tourist feels like in her own search party, and she's looking for the missing person. The angle of inclination of all of this is, and the logic of it, is all wrong, understandably so, given how we all get into this situation. It's useful to continually try to undercut it and recognize that the thing that's being looked for is actually right on the surface, which is that there is no one looking. There is no place from which you are paying attention to the breath, or to sounds, or noticing the next thought arise. This sense that you are over here doing that thing is actually what it's like to be thinking and not knowing that you're thinking. There's an undercurrent of thought that's going uninspected in that moment. There's a continually looking for the mind, a looking for the center of experience, a looking for the one who is looking, which is the orientation practice here.
这就是搜寻队的感觉。这就像困惑的游客加入自己的搜寻队找寻失踪的人一样。所有这一切的倾斜角度和逻辑都是错误的，这可以理解，因为我们都是这样陷入这种境地的。不断地尝试颠覆这种逻辑并认识到，实际上在表面上就能找到答案，即没有人在四处寻找。注意力并没有从某个地方被集中在呼吸、声音或是即将出现的下一个想法上。你以为自己在这里做这些事情，其实这就是思考的状态，而你并未意识到自己在思考。那时，有一种思绪的暗流未被察觉。不断地寻求心灵的中心，寻找体验的核心，寻找那个在寻找的人，这就是这里的定位练习。
There's a lot more I say about this, obviously, over waking up. It's the experiment you have to perform in order to get ready to recognize that the search party was formed in error, essentially. The problem that you're trying to solve with this practice does evaporate in a similar way, which is you don't actually get there in the way that you're hoping for. You drop out the bottom of this thing in an unexpected way. It's not there's actually another similar parable or anecdote that I don't remember if it's Zen or Sufi or I'm sure it's been reappropriated in many different ways, but by many different traditions. The case of somebody who's lost in a town and they're asking for directions, you could put this in Manhattan. You could say you're wondering Manhattan and you're a tourist where anything is. You stop and ask someone, where is Central Park and the person thinks for a second and they say, oh, yeah, unfortunately, you can't get to Central Park from here.
这段话的意思是，从某种意义上来说，清醒苏醒是一个需要亲身体验的过程。你需要意识到，之前的一些做法其实是错误的。你以为通过这种练习能解决问题，但结果往往不是你希望的那样，这个问题可能会以一种意料之外的方式自行消失。
这让我想起一个类似的寓言或轶事。我不记得它来源于禅宗还是苏菲派，或者它可能被很多传统文化以不同的方式重新演绎过。故事讲的是某个人在一个小镇迷路了，向人问路，你可以把这个场景设定在曼哈顿。你是个游客，在曼哈顿四处游走，想找到中央公园。于是你拦住一个人问路，而对方思考了一下，却告诉你：“哦，很遗憾，你不能从这里去中央公园。”
That is a very strange, I mean, you think about that for a second. You realize, okay, that's an absurd. There is no place that you can't get to from the place you're starting on Earth. That's not the failure to describe the physical relationships between anything in the world. Yeah, that's just not the world we live in, right? So, but it's a funny thing. But on some level, that is true of meditation. It's like, you can't get there from here. The sense of you, the sense of you as subject, isn't brought along to this thing you're looking for, right? It's almost like you're making a fist and you're trying to get to an open hand. The fist doesn't get to take that journey as a fist, right? The fist doesn't go along for the ride. The fist comes apart, right? And on some level, our subjectivity is a kind of an intentional fist. It is a contraction of energy. Again, it's so much bound up in thought for most of us, most of the time.
这是一个很奇怪的事情，我是说，你想一想。你意识到，好吧，这是荒谬的。地球上没有哪个地方是你从出发地到达不了的。这不是描述世界上事物之间物理关系的失败。对吧，这不是我们生活的世界。但是，这个想法有些有趣。在某种程度上，这种情况对冥想来说是真实的。就像是，你没法从这里到达那里。你的自我意识，你作为主体的意识，并不会随着你寻找的目标一起到达。有点像是你攥紧拳头却想变成张开的手掌。拳头无法以拳头的形式完成这个旅程。拳头不会一起上路，它会松开。在某种程度上，我们的主观意识就像有意收缩的拳头，是一种能量的收缩。对于我们大多数人来说，这种收缩大多和思想紧密相连。
And when properly inspected, there's just this evaporation of the starting point. But there's not this fulfillment of, I'm going to get this fist is going to just go, if life gets good enough, if I get concentrated enough, focused enough, if I austere enough, if I renounce enough, if I desire less, if I, you know, enough good intentions, this fist is going to move into some sort of sublime condition, right? That's not the logic of the process. I really appreciate these models and analogies for conscious experience, both as most people experience them and harbor them in it as a way to frame what's possible through a proper meditation practice. I do want to talk about what a proper meditation practice looks like, a bit. But at some point, I do want to raise a model of maybe even just perceptual awareness to see if it survives the filters that you've provided.
当仔细审视时，起点似乎就消失了。但并没有那种“如果生活变得足够美好，如果我足够专注，足够投入，足够简朴，足够放弃，欲望更少，拥有足够的美好愿望，拳头就会进入某种崇高境界”的满足感。这不是这个过程的逻辑。我非常欣赏这些关于意识体验的模型和比喻，因为大多数人都以这种方式体验和理解它们，把它当作通过正确的冥想实践可以实现的可能性框架。我确实想稍微谈谈正确的冥想实践是什么样子的。但在某个时候，我也想提出一个关于感知意识的模型，看看它是否能通过你提供的标准。
But first, just even if, briefly, and then we could return to it, you know, what does this meditation practice or set of practices look like? Obviously, the app is a wonderful tool. I've started using it, as I mentioned, at the beginning of my father's been using it for a while, and many people have drive great benefit from it. But if we were to break it down meditation into some basic component parts, as we have broken down normal perceptual experience in some of its component parts, yeah. I can just throw out some things that I associate with meditation, and maybe you can elaborate on how these may or may not be applied. For instance, there is almost always a ceasing of robust motor movement. I know they're walking meditations and so forth, but it seems like sitting or lying down, and perhaps not always, but often limiting our visual perception, closing the eyes, directing a mind's eye someplace.
首先，就算只是简短地讨论一下，然后我们可以再回到这一话题。你知道，这种冥想练习或一系列练习看起来是什么样的？显然，应用程序是一个很好的工具。我开始使用它，就像我在开头提到的，我的父亲已经使用了一段时间，许多人从中获得了极大的好处。如果我们将冥想分解成一些基本组成部分，就像我们把正常的感知体验分解成一些组成部分一样。我可以简单提一些我与冥想相关的看法，也许你可以详细说明这些如何能够或不能够应用。比如，几乎总是涉及停止大幅度的肢体运动。我知道有行走冥想等，不过看起来坐着或躺下，而且可能并不总是这样，但通常会减少视觉感知，比如闭上眼睛，将心灵之眼导向某个地方。
Is there a dedicated effort toward generating imagery? What are the component parts? And where I'm really going with this is, why would those component parts eventually allow for this dissolution of the fist or the realization that there is no distinction between actor and observer and so on? Yeah, yeah. Well, to answer that, the second question first, ultimately meditation is not a practice that you're adding to your life. It's not it's not doing more of anything. It's actually ceasing to do something. It's ultimately non-distraction. Ultimately, you're recognizing what consciousness is like when you're no longer distracted by the automatic arising of thought. It's not that thoughts don't arise. It's not that you can't use them. It's not that you've become irrational or unintelligent. All of that, you still have all of your tools, but everything is in plain view.
这个问题的中文翻译是：是否有专门的努力用于生成图像？其组成部分是什么？我想探讨的是，为什么这些组成部分最终会导致拳头的消融，或实现没有演员和观察者之分等状态？
好的，先回答第二个问题。最终，冥想并不是你生活中要增加的一个练习。它不是让你做更多的事情，而是让你停止做一些事情。最终，它是关于不分心。最终，你是在认识到当你不再被自动浮现的思维分散注意力时，意识是什么样的。这并不是说不会再有思维出现，也不是说你不能使用它们，并不是说你会变得不理性或不聪明。这一切东西你仍然具备，只是它们都变得清晰可见。
There's an analogy in Tibetan Buddhism, which I love, which is in the final stage of meditation, thoughts are like thieves entering an empty house. There's nothing for them to steal. In the usual case, thoughts are, there really is something in jeopardy. Every time a thought comes, I'm not meditating anymore. Not only that, I feel terrible because of what I'm thinking about most of the time. It's totally understandable, a thought seemed like a problem in the beginning. For certain types of meditation, they are explicitly thought of as a problem because you're trying to focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else, including thought. That is what I called concentration practice earlier. It's a training that can be good to do. It becomes a tool that you can use for other kinds of insight, but it's a very specific and brittle skill in the end.
在藏传佛教中，有一个我非常喜欢的比喻：在冥想的最后阶段，念头就像小偷进入一间空房子。他们没有什么可偷的。在一般情况下，我们的念头会让人感觉好像有什么东西处于危险之中。每当一个念头出现时，我就不再冥想了。不仅如此，我常常因为想到的事情而感到糟糕。这种感觉很正常，因为在开始时，念头似乎就是个问题。对某些类型的冥想来说，念头被明确视为一个问题，因为你试图专注于一件事情，而排除其他一切，包括念头。这就是我之前提到的专注训练。这种训练是可以进行的，并且成为你用于其他方面洞察的工具，但从根本上来说，这是一种非常特殊且脆弱的技能。
It's a skill. I'm going to pay attention to one thing, and I'm going to do that so well that everything else is going to fade out. It's somewhat analogous to what you described in the visual system. If you have laser focus to one fixation point, everything else in your visual field begins to fade out. But, meditatively, if you have a laser focus on any one thing, whether it's the breath or a candle flame, whatever it is, not only does, let's use the breath for a second because your eyes can be closed. You can lose all sense of everything. You can lose all sense of hearing, and your physical body can disappear. It literally can become incredibly subtle and vast. Drug-like.
这是一种技能。我会专注于一件事，并且做到非常好，以至于其他一切都逐渐消失。这和你描述的视觉系统有点类似。如果你用激光般的焦点专注于一个点，那么视野中的其他东西就会开始褪去。而在冥想中，如果你能像激光一样专注于某一件事，比如呼吸或烛光，无论是什么，不仅仅是，比如说呼吸，因为你可以闭上眼睛，你可以失去对一切的感知。你可能听不到声音，甚至感觉不到自己的身体。那种感觉甚至可以变得极其细微和广阔，像吸了药一样。
Many people approach meditation, thinking, climbing the ladder of those changes into subtlety and vastness. That's the whole game. It can be a deeply rewarding game to play. It also does come with all kinds of ancillary benefits. All the focus and the calm and the smoothness of emotional states, all that comes with greater concentration. It can be quite wonderful. But again, at best, that's a tool to aim in the direction that I'm talking about now with respect to meditation, which relates to more what I would call mindfulness generically, and ultimately, kind of non-dual mindfulness.
许多人在开始冥想时，会想象自己在攀登一座从表面到深奥、广阔的“阶梯”。这就是整个冥想的过程。这可以是一个非常有意义的体验，并且带来许多附带的好处。通过增强注意力，可以让情绪更加平和与稳定，这一切都建立在更高的专注力上。这确实很美好。但从根本上讲，这只是一种工具，用于帮助达到我现在要讨论的冥想目标，这更接近于我所谓的一般意义上的“正念”，最终是一种“非二元正念”。
Mindfulness generically, and for most people, certainly in the beginning, dualistically, is just the practice of paying careful attention to whatever is arising on a zone. Right? Now, in the beginning, it's natural to take a single object like the breath. As a starting point, it's kind of an anchor. But very, very quickly, over the course of even your first week of doing this, people, teachers, and various sources of information will recommend that once you get some facility, once you know the difference between being lost and thought and actually paying attention to the breath, well, then you can open it up to everything.
正念通常来说，尤其在大多数人刚开始的时候，是二元对立的体验：就是对当下产生的一切给予细致的关注。对吧？起初，你可能会以单一对象，比如呼吸，作为起点，这就像一个“锚点”。但是，很快地，即使在你练习的第一个星期内，人们、老师和各种信息来源会建议你，一旦你有所掌握，理解了沉浸在思绪与真正专注于呼吸之间的区别后，你就可以开始将注意力扩展到所有事物上。
You can open up to sounds and other sensations in the body and moods and emotions, and even ultimately thoughts themselves. And so very quickly, you can recognize that thoughts are not intrinsically the enemy to this practice. They are also just spontaneous appearances in consciousness that can be observed. But for some considerable period of time, people will feel that there is a place from which that observation is happening. Right? There is just, you know, I'm now the one who's being mindful.
你可以敞开自己，去感受身体里的声音和其他感觉，以及各种情绪和心情，甚至最终了解自己的想法。因此，你会很快意识到，想法本身并不是这个练习的敌人。它们也是可以被观察的意识中的自发显现。然而，很多人会在相当长的一段时间内觉得有一个地方是进行这种观察的起点。就像是，我现在是那个在保持专注的人。
And however, attenuated that sense of self can be, I mean, again, it can get very expansive. I mean, you can, you know, you can lose, you know, as you get anything, just a monochrome of concentration, you know, it becomes very drug-like and you get, you know, you're the boundaries of your body dissolve and your feeling of having a body can disappear and you, you know, if your eyes are closed, you know, your visual field, I mean, most people, when they close their eyes, initially, they just forget about their visual field.
无论自我意识多么微弱，它仍然可以变得非常广泛。就是说，当你专注于某件事时，它会让你感觉像是药物的效果。你的身体边界会开始消融，身体的感觉可能会消失。如果你闭上眼睛，大多数人会不再注意他们的视觉范围。
But, you know, it's, if you close your eyes right now, you notice your visual field is fully present. And, you know, it's, we call it dark, but it's not quite dark. There is this sort of scintillating some field of color and shadow that's there in the darkness of your closed eyes. And that can become a sky-like domain of kind of vast, you know, visual expression that opens up as you, as you get more concentrated with, you know, with your eyes closed, right? So, you're, so you can very much be aware of seeing with your eyes closed in, in meditative practice.
但是，你知道吗，如果你现在闭上眼睛，你会注意到你的视觉领域依然存在。我们称之为黑暗，但是它并不是完全黑暗。在你闭着的眼睛的黑暗中，有一种闪烁的色彩和阴影的场域。随着你更加专注于闭眼冥想，这种场域可以变成一个如天空般广阔的视觉表达领域。因此，在冥想练习中，即使闭着眼睛，你也能清晰地感觉到“看见”。
But from the point of view of mindfulness, the logic is not to care about any of the interesting changes and experience that come as a result of practicing in this way because what you're, what the, the underlying goal is, is to be more and more equanimous with changes. So, it's not to grasp at what's pleasant or interesting and not to push what's unpleasant or, you know, boring or, you know, otherwise not engaging away. What you want is just a kind of a sky-like mind that just allows everything to appear. And you're not clinging to anything or, or, or reacting to anything.
但从正念的角度来看，逻辑上并不在意因这种实践方式带来的各种有趣的变化和体验，因为其根本目标是让自己对变化保持越来越多的平静。因此，我们不应该追求那些令人愉悦或有趣的事物，也不应该排斥那些令人不悦、无聊或无法引起兴趣的事物。我们想要的是一种如天空般的心境，任由一切出现，不对任何事物执着或作出反应。
Could I ask you what your thoughts are about the differences between nouns, adjectives, and verbs in the context of what we're talking about in your describing? And the reason to bring this up is that, as you know, I know everything in biology is a process, you know, we would never, ever say, oh, you know, the perception of that red line on painting is, is a noun, right? I mean, it's an event in the visual system. You're, you're abstracting some understanding about that thing in the outside world.
我可以问问您对名词、形容词和动词之间区别的看法吗？特别是在我们当前讨论的背景下。在生物学中，一切都是一个过程。我们永远不会说，“对画上红线的感知”是一个名词，对吧？这是视觉系统中的一个事件，您在抽象地理解外部世界中的那个事物。
And I think it's very useful in thinking about the brain. And people will notice I notice, I, excuse me, actively avoid the use of the word mind because I figure out, especially with you sitting across from me that I'll, I'll step in it if I, if I do. But the brain generates a series of perceptions or what have you by through processes, not nouns. And so when thinking about biology, I think of development as a, as an arc of processes, aging as an arc of perception as an arc of process. They just exist on different time scales.
我认为这对于思考大脑非常有帮助。请注意，我特意避免使用“心灵”这个词，因为特别是当你坐在我对面时，我意识到如果我那样做可能会出错。大脑通过一系列过程，而不是通过名词，来生成各种感知或其他的东西。因此，当思考生物学时，我把发展看作是一系列的过程，衰老也是一种感知过程的变化，它们只是在不同的时间尺度上存在。
And so a little bit of what I am hearing is that inside of an effective meditation practice, there's a little bit of a, of a certainly non-judgment, but discarding of the, the noun and the adjective modes of language, like red apple, okay, it's a red apple. But then you sort of need to eliminate some other adjectives about it. It's a rotten apple. It's a, you know, ripe apple. And instead view the appearance and disappearance of that apple as a, it's just a thing, a process, as opposed to an event.
在有效的冥想练习中，我听到的一点是，这里面涉及到一种非评判的态度，同时也需要有意识地减少使用语言中的名词和形容词模式。比如说，当我们看到一个红苹果，我们习惯性地称它为红苹果。但是，我们可能需要去掉一些关于这个苹果的其他形容词，比如烂苹果、熟苹果等等。相反，我们要把这苹果的出现和消失看作是一种持续的过程，而不是一个孤立的事件。
And now events could, we could really get into the language aspect of the, that just reveals how diminished language is to describe the workings of the brain at some level. I don't know if any of this resonates, but it, but it seems to me the goal or one of the goals is to start to understand the algorithm that is the fleeting nature of perception, but to not focus on any one single perception. And then to not even focus on one single algorithm, but to, at some level, there's a, what is revealed to the meditator over time is some sort of macroscopic principle about the way perceptions work at a deeper level, right, that there's, that there's sort of a deeper principle there that sits below our, certainly our normal everyday awareness, but that in paying attention to the mechanics of all this stuff and not judging those mechanics, not naming those mechanics, or just naming them and let them pass by, that there's some action function.
现在，关于事件的讨论，我们可以真正深入语言的层面，这揭示了在某种程度上，语言在描述大脑运作时的局限性。我不知道这些是否引起共鸣，但在我看来，目标或其中一个目标是开始理解构成暂时性感知的“算法”，而不是只关注某一个具体的感知。甚至不要专注于一个单一的算法，而是逐渐地，对长期进行冥想的人来说，会揭示一种关于感知运作的更深层次的宏观原则，这种原则存在于我们的日常意识之下。而通过关注这些机制且不过度评判或命名它们，仅仅标记并让它们自然流逝，在这个过程中便会产生某种作用。
Some verb is revealed and that maybe that verb, maybe the word to describe that verb is mindfulness. Maybe mindfulness is really just a verb to describe that. I don't know. But is there anything here am I, am I, am I, I don't know if I'm creating just like useless straw or if there's, if there's actually a seed here of something real, but to me, anytime I want to understand something in biology or psychology, I train, broad in the time domain and think in terms of verbs, not nouns or adjectives.
有一些动词被揭示出来，也许那个动词就是“正念”。可能“正念”这个词实际上就是用来描述那个动词的。我不确定。但这里面是否有点什么，我不清楚我是在制造无意义的东西，还是真的有一些实质性的开端。对我来说，每当我想理解生物学或心理学中的某些东西时，我的训练方法是从时间维度上广泛思考，从动词的角度出发，而不是从名词或形容词的角度。
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's very useful and that's somewhat adjacent to this distinction I'm making between dualistic and non-dualistic ways of experiencing the world. So even dualistically, everything is still a process, right, and we're misled by the reification that noun talk gives us. So, and this, this applies not just to something like mindfulness, but even to something like the self, right? So the sense of self is also a process. I mean, it's a verb. It's not, it's a work we're selfing more than we are selves, right?
是的，是的，是的。没错，这很有用，这与我正在讨论的二元和非二元世界体验方式的区别有些相关。即使是以二元的方式来体验，万物仍然是一个过程，而我们被名词化的语言给误导了。因此，这不仅适用于诸如正念之类的事情，甚至对于自我这样的概念也是一样。自我感也是一个过程，可以说是一个动词。我们更倾向于在不断“自我化”的过程中，而不是说我们是固定的“自我”。
And, and there, you know, even, even appropriate uses of the term self that don't go away even when you recognize that the the core subject self is an illusion, there are, there are states of self, right? Where you, you can recognize in your life that you inhabit very different modes of being depending on the context. So like, there are moments where you just by walking into a certain building, you suddenly transition into a different state of self. Like, suddenly, you pass through a door and now you're a customer in a store, right?
而且，你知道，即使我们认识到核心的“自我”是个错觉，仍然有一些适当使用“自我”这个词的情况不会消失。也就是说，生活中有各种不同的“自我”状态，对吧？根据不同的情境，你会感受到自己以非常不同的方式存在。比如，有时候当你走进某栋建筑时，你会突然转换到不同的“自我”状态。就像你穿过一扇门，瞬间成为了商店里的顾客。
So we know what that customer feeling is. Like, you're now the person who's getting the attention. It's a very kind of formalized type of attention from the person who's running the store and, you know, or a restaurant, you're a customer and a restaurant, right? That's a, just remember something that's kind of funny. That was born of a mismatch of this. I'll come back there in a second.
所以我们了解顾客的感受。就像现在你是那个吸引注意力的人。来自于店铺或餐厅经理的这种关注，是一种非常正式的关注方式。你在餐厅时是顾客，对吧？这让我想起一件有趣的事，这源于某种不匹配。我稍后会再谈这个。
But, so there are, so we go through, you can be a, you know, you can be a student in the presence of a teacher, you can be a parent in the presence of a son or a daughter, you can be a spouse in presence of your spouse. And all of those shatings of, like, the change in context really does usher in some fundamental psychological changes in just the states of consciousness that are available to you.
但是，有时候我们会经历不同的角色转换，比如当你和老师在一起时，你是学生；和孩子在一起时，你是父母；和伴侣在一起时，你是配偶。所有这些不同的情境变化确实会带来一些根本的心理变化，影响到你所能体验到的意识状态。
And it's, and some of this is really, I mean, I'm sure we could understand a lot about this, you know, personally and, you know, generically, but it is pretty mysterious. I mean, I mean, there are people who I know, who I'm, you know, I'm with them in a certain way. And like, based on something I'm getting off of them, like, I can't be that. I'm effortlessly one way with them. And there's no way I could be that way with somebody else, right? Like, it's just, I don't know if it's the pheromones or their, you know, they're facial, they're just the way they are, their facial expression. But I mean, they're people with whom I'm really kind of effortlessly funny. And they're people with whom, you know, I couldn't even, it would never occur to me to be funny, no matter what happened, you know, it's like, and, and I have like long standing relationships with, with these people, you know, so like, it's just very, you know, all that's very mysterious.
这段话翻译成中文是：
这个话题真的很神秘，虽然从个人或一般的角度我们可以理解很多，但它的确很复杂。我认识的一些人，在和他们相处时，我自然就能展现某种一面，而这种一面是我无法在其他人面前展现的。我不知道这是因为信息素、他们的表情，还是他们本身的某种特质。与某些人在一起时，我很自然地幽默风趣，而和另一些人在一起时，无论发生什么，我都不会想到幽默。即便我和这些人有长期的关系，这种差异依然存在，这一切都非常神秘。
But anyway, the, the difference there is, is not in this core sense of subject in relationship to all the objects. It's in kind of the, the, the states of self. And, but, and all of that is just, is very verbi, right? Like, all this is a pattern of changes. It's a pattern of what's available, and what's not available, the capacities that are, you know, that are, they come online or not, in those various contexts. But no, the, the, the memory I just had, which I hadn't had in a long time. But it was one of these, these moments where I realized the power of these shifts in context for states of self.
无论如何，区别并不在于作为主体与所有客体之间的核心关系，而是在于自我状态的不同。而且，这些差别在某种程度上其实是冗长啰嗦的。所有这些都是变化的模式，是关于什么可用、什么不可用，以及在不同情境下哪些能力上线或下线的模式。不过，我刚刚回忆起很久没有想起的记忆，正是这种记忆让我意识到在不同情境下自我状态变化的力量。
So I once, I was a, a young man, I think was, I was, uh, probably 22 or so, and single and like, you're just like trying to figure out how, how, how do you, women and like, how does, how does one get confident to do this well? And, um, I, um, I walked into a restaurant and a, um, kind of a woman was walking toward me, you know, you know, toward the front door of the restaurant, but she was walking toward me in a way where I just, by default, assumed she was the hostess in the restaurant.
我年轻的时候，大概22岁左右，还单身。那时候我就在想，怎么去了解女性，怎么才能自信地与她们互动。有一次，我走进一家餐馆，一个女人朝我走来，面向餐馆的前门。我很自然地认为她是餐馆的迎宾员。
Uh, but she wasn't the hostess. She was just a, um, you know, someone who just eaten there, I guess. Um, so I walk through and she comes out, and so there's a fundamental misunderstanding in me that's set up by literally just this change in architecture. And I, and so I just said hi to her in a way that I would, I presumably, I would say hi to any hostess who was coming up to ask me whether where I wanted to sit. Um, but what had actually happened is I had said hi to a total stranger in a way that I tended at that point, never to say hi to total strangers because I was shy and you know, just like, um, but apparently, I gave her like a 10,000 watt, you know, hi of like, well, like all of the confidence you would have if you, if you were that sort of person.
呃，但她并不是服务员。她只是一个在那里吃过饭的人。我走过去，她正好出来，由于建筑格局的变化导致了我的一个根本性误会。我向她打招呼的方式，就像我通常会跟迎面而来的服务员打招呼，问我想坐在哪里一样。然而，实际上，我用一种我通常不会对陌生人说话的方式向一个完全陌生的人打了招呼，因为我有些害羞。但显然，我给了她一个像是充满自信的热情“你好”，就好像我是那种很有自信的人一样。
And it just ushered in a complete like, you know, this is, so I went to my table and this woman, I came back into the restaurant, like gave me her phone number, right, which was something that was just completely foreign experience to me, you know, and it was based completely on my misunderstanding of the situation I wasn't, right? And, and so anyway, that among the understanding, uh, among the misunderstandings that one can have and then action and gauge in life, I've said that that was a somewhat adaptive one.
这件事让我彻底感受到一种全新的体验。事情是这样的：我回到餐桌时，这位女士递给了我她的电话号码，这对我来说是一种完全陌生的经历。而这一切都是因为我对当时情境的误解导致的，对吧？所以，在生活中，人们可能会有各种误解，并因此采取一些行动。在这些误解中，我觉得这次经历算是比较有益的一次。
Yeah, yeah, but, but then you realize that, okay, but then there are certain people who recognize this machinery to whatever degree or have net and kind of natural aptitudes for bringing certain things online or not, such that, okay, they can make these, they can consciously make these states of self, you know, this kind of this level of gregariousness, say available to them in different, you know, in the circumstances where it's actually useful to them.
是的，是的，但后来你意识到，有些人懂得运用这种机制或天生具备某种才能，可以在需要时有意识地激活某种状态或性格，比如在特定情况下展现出社交能力。
So like, if you're single and you want to meet people, well, it's actually very helpful to feel confident enough to just say, hide a stranger is now somehow they're doing and to, and to be, to be, you know, online, you know, in that way, where at that point in my life, in that circumstance, you know, by, you know, by default, I was going to ignore this stranger who I was passing by in the doorway of a restaurant, but thinking she was the hostess, I was engaging her, you know, fully.
所以说，如果你是单身并且想认识新朋友，那么有足够的自信去主动向陌生人打招呼，或者在线上的方式去互动，确实是很有帮助的。在我生活的某个阶段，出于惯性，我可能会忽视在餐厅门口遇到的这个陌生人，但因为以为她是服务员，我就全心全意地和她交流了。
So anyway, you can consciously, again, this does not invoke free will at all, but yes, you can consciously decide to play with this, with these mechanisms, such that you can decide what states of self would be more normative to have, you know, given what you want in life. And, and you can become increasingly, you know, attentive to the ways in which you get played by the world, you know, you're a kind of instrument, your mind is a kind of instrument, your brain is a kind of instrument that is continually getting played by the situations you're in, and you can become more of an intelligent curator of your conscious states and your conscious capacities just by noticing the changes in you.
所以，总之，你可以有意识地进行这种尝试。这里并不涉及自由意志，但你确实可以有意识地决定如何利用这些机制，从而决定你希望自己有哪些状态，以便更符合你生活中的目标。而且，你可以越来越关注于观察外部世界如何影响你，就像你的心智是一个乐器，不断被各种情境“演奏”。通过注意自身的变化，你可以更聪明地管理自己的意识状态和能力。
Like, I, in graduate school, some of the talk about, I think at some point in waking up, this became very stark for me because I had, you know, I was a, you know, an old graduate student, I had taken 11 years off at Stanford, between my sophomore and junior year, right? So I like, when I went back to school, I'm talking about a leave of abs. Yeah, no, it was, yeah, but I mean, so Stanford had this, you might know this, they have the stopout policy where you never really drop out, you just stop as you're like, and always go back, you don't have to write letters saying that you still exist every, you know, two years as you do in other schools.
在研究生院的时候，我经历了一些事情，某个时刻突然意识到这个问题。当时我已经不再是一个年轻的研究生了。事实上，我在斯坦福大学的本科学习中，在大二和大三之间休学了11年。可以说，当我重新回到学校时，我是在说休学的事。斯坦福有一个你可能知道的政策，叫做停学（stopout）政策，这意味着你从来不是完全退学，只是暂时停止学习，你随时可以回来，不像其他学校，每隔两年就得写信证明你还存在。
So anyway, I showed up after 11 years, and, but, you know, so I was really on a deadline, and I felt late for everything. So I'm kind of, you know, finishing my degree, you know, as quickly as I can as an undergraduate, and then I jump into graduate school, and I'm an old graduate student, and I'm, you know, there's a real sense of kind of urgency, like I'm late, I should have done this earlier, I want to get the stuff done. But then 9-11 happened, and I, just as I had finished my coursework, you know, getting my PhD, and I was just getting into my research, but 9-11 intersected with my life in such a way that I just had to drop everything and write my first book, and I did that, and then I just had to drop everything and write my second book because of the response to the first book.
所以，无论如何，在11年后我回来了，但你知道的，我真的是在赶时间，感觉自己总是晚了一步。我在努力尽快完成我的本科学位，然后进入研究生阶段。作为一名年龄较大的研究生，我有一种紧迫感，觉得自己来得太晚，本该早一些完成这些事情的。我想尽快完成这些事情。但是，9·11事件发生了，正当我完成课程，准备攻读博士学位并进行研究时，9·11事件对我的生活产生了巨大的影响，我不得不放下手头的一切去写我的第一本书。我完成了它，然后因为这本书的反响，再次放下一切去写我的第二本书。
And so essentially I had like four years where I was AWOL doing my PhD, but I still had a toe in the lab, and I was still showing up occasionally, but I was becoming this kind of cautionary tale from the point of view of grad school, but I was also becoming kind of a famous, you know, or semi-famous writer, because my first book had been a New York Times best seller, and I just, you know, so I was getting some notorieties, a writer, and so I was doing things like, you know, I was giving a TED talk, but I still hadn't finished graduate school, right? So like, it was just, it was some, I think that time is right, maybe I had just finished graduate school when I gave the TED talk, but anyway, so I was in rowing in two boats, and one boat was sinking, or you know, showing every sign of being damaged, and I was literally like, you know, getting letters from the head of the department saying, you know, I work in Surndabatchew, but on the other hand, I was like becoming a, you know, a quasi-celebrity in that world too, you know, at least in a world that was overlapping.
基本上，那四年我就像离开了部队一样在攻读博士学位，但仍然保持着一点实验室的联系，偶尔会出现。然而，从研究生院的角度来看，我变成了一个需要谨慎对待的故事。但与此同时，由于我的第一本书成为了《纽约时报》畅销书，我渐渐成了一个有些名气的作家。因为我稍微出了一点名，比如说，我去做了TED演讲。但直到那时，我还没有完成研究生学业。可能就在那段时间，我刚完成研究生学位。但无论如何，我就像是在乘坐两艘船，一艘正在下沉或者说是有明显的破损。我甚至收到系主任的信件，说我需要专注于学业。但另一方面，我在另一个领域也成为了一个准名人，至少在那个领域中，有一些重叠的地方。
So I was having the experience of like going in, I mean, the moment where this crystallized with, for me in a, in a fairly peculiar way was, I had a meeting at like three o'clock with my advisor who was just this guy Mark Cohen in the Brain Mapping Center, and you see a lot of fantastic guy, great advisor, I did not extract as much wisdom from him as I should have, brilliant scientist, and you know, he's, for him, I'm late, right? At least in my head, like, he is not that he was riding me so hard, but like in my head, I'm very self-conscious about how I'm not living up to his expectations at this point.
所以当时我的感受是这样的，有一个瞬间让我感触特别深刻，我去参加了一个三点钟的会议，会议是和我的导师马克·科恩在大脑映射中心进行的。他是一位非常出色的人，一个很棒的导师，虽然我没有从他那里汲取到应有的智慧，但他确实是一位杰出的科学家。在我心里，我觉得自己迟到了，虽然他并没有特别严厉地指责我，但我非常在意自己是否达到了他的期望。
So I have a meeting with him at like three o'clock, and I'm just kind of wilting, you know, under my, you know, his gaze and my own imagined, you know, inner gaze of his, you know, but that two hours later, I have a meeting with his boss, you know, a dinner meeting with his boss who wants to meet with me to get advice on launching his book. We have the same publisher, but I'm like the much bigger author at, you know, at Norton, you know, and he's coming to me for advice.
所以，我大概三点钟要和他开会，但在他的注视下，我感觉有点压力，还有自己想象中他对我的看法。不过，两小时后，我要和他的老板有个晚餐会，他想请教我关于如何推出他的新书。我们用的是同一个出版社，但在诺顿我算是影响力更大的作者，他来找我寻求建议。
And so I'm ricocheting between two diametrically opposite self-states that are, again, this comes down to architecture. It's literally like the state I was in walking into one building and then leaving and walking into another building on the same campus. And they were completely opposite self-concepts. Like in one context, I am a fuck up. In another context, I am a celebrity who's- And you have mastery and versatility, and we're developing it very quickly. Yeah.
我在两个截然相反的自我状态之间来回切换，这又和环境有关。这就像我走进同一个校园的两座不同建筑，这两个地方给我的自我感觉完全相反。在一个环境里，我觉得自己一无是处；而在另一个环境中，我觉得自己像个名人，拥有掌控力和多样性，并且这些能力正在迅速提升。
And, but so, again, this is kind of a stark version of that, but everyone has some version of this just in balancing between talking to their mom and then talking to their best friend and then talking to a stranger and then talking to someone who's very successful, talking to someone who's not very sick. Like, you notice your vulnerability to all of this stuff. And ultimately, what you want is a level of psychological integrity that is truly divorceable from that.
这是一种相对直白的表达，但每个人在与不同的人交流时都会面临这样的问题：比如在和妈妈交谈、和最好的朋友聊天、与陌生人对话、与非常成功的人交谈、或者和并不是特别成功的人交流之间找到平衡。你会注意到自己对于这些情况的变化是多么敏感。但最终，你想要的是一种心理上的完整性，使自己不轻易被这些因素影响。
Now, I'm not saying you're ever going to get it perfect. There's always going to be some- I mean, I can't talk about the ultimate fulfillment of this process. I'm not a Buddha. I'm not saying I've finished the project, but I think there's more and more you become sensitive to these changes and you become sensitive to what it's like to actually not be psychologically reactive and not be definable by your own self-concept, your own idea, you're not identifying with anything.
现在，我并不是说你可以做到完美。总会有一些- 我的意思是，我无法谈论这一过程的最终实现。我不是佛陀，也不是说我已经完成了这个过程，但我认为你会越来越敏感地察觉这些变化，并且敏感于不再以心理反应为主导，不再被自己的自我概念所定义。不再与任何东西产生身份认同。
You're not hanging your hat on anything. You're not thinking about yourself in terms- in the kind of terms that you would export to others and then care about what they think about you. There's a kind of invulnerability that arises that's not born of being well defended. It's born of being evaporated. It's like you're no longer keeping score in those ways.
你没有把自己系在任何事情上。你没有用一种会对别人谈起，然后在意他们怎么看你的方式来思考自己。有一种无懈可击的感觉，但不是因为你防备得很好，而是因为心无挂碍。这感觉就像你不再用那种方式来计较得失了。
Once again, I really appreciate that description because these days I'm really intrigued by something we've known for a long time that I'm certainly familiar with. There's a prefrontal cortex is ability to establish context-dependent rule sets. A strup task will be a basic example of reading numbers or letters on cards and then switching to having to report the colors that the letters and numbers are written in.
再次感谢你对这个概念的描述，因为最近我对一个我们早已了解且我也很熟悉的现象产生了浓厚的兴趣。这就是前额叶皮层在建立依赖于情境的规则集方面的能力。斯特鲁普任务是一个基础的例子，比如先阅读卡片上的数字或字母，然后再切换到报告这些数字和字母的颜色。
It's a basic task, but prefrontal cortex is obviously important for setting context-dependent thought and behavior and directed action. But within the context of all these different variations of the self, depending on graduate school or relationship or sitting alone in one's room, they're different rules set to rise. But somehow we are able to have a coherent sense of self that encompasses all of those.
这是一项基本任务，但前额皮质显然对根据情境调整思维和行为以及指导行动非常重要。然而，在不同情境下，比如读研究生、处于一段关系中或独自在房间里时，不同的规则会显现出来。但不知何故，我们能够拥有一个连贯的自我认知，包容所有这些不同的角色。
Functional people can toggle between them as needed and not overlap them inappropriately. It's not the extent that it's career failing or life failing. Although there are sad examples of that. Many of which exist in the Twitter space. I know several colleagues, not directly of mine, but people who through mistakes made with their thumbs where they forgot context or forgot to realize that the context on social media is near infinite.
功能正常的人可以根据需要在不同的身份或情境之间切换，并且不会不适当地重叠。这样做的失败并不会严重到足以毁掉事业或生活，虽然确实有一些这样的悲剧例子，尤其是在推特上。我认识几位同事，他们虽然不是我直接的朋友，但由于在推特上发贴时用手机时忘记了背景或没有意识到社交媒体的背景几乎是无限的，因此犯下了一些错误。
But the context that existed in their head might not be clear in the way that they communicated something and they lost their jobs. By saying what were perceived as insensitive things, in some cases, we're in fact a fence of insensitive things. In some cases, it's debatable. In any case, I think that the image that now comes to mind relates to something you've said several times that it's not about eliminating something.
他们在头脑中拥有的背景信息可能在他们表达时并不清晰，这导致他们失去了工作。他们所说的话被认为是不敏感的，有时这些话确实是不敏感的，有时则存在争议。无论如何，我认为现在让人想起你多次提到的一点，那就是问题不在于消除某些东西。
It's about revealing that something was never actually there. And then in terms of sensory experience and these different aspects of the self, I have this image in my mind of not an experienced scuba diver. But I've done enough of it, you know, Warner Wetsuit. You wear a complete Wetsuit with the hood.
这段话的大意是关于揭示出某些东西其实从未存在过。在感官体验和自我不同方面上，我脑海中浮现这样一个画面：不是一个有经验的潜水员，但我潜水过足够多次，穿着一套完整的潜水服，带着头罩。
And this idea, if you were born into that Wetsuit, you might think that you nudge up or lean up against a wall and you experience it one way. But were you to shed that Wetsuit? You thought, wow, there's this incredible landscape of some out of sensory experience that I had no idea. It goes way beyond levels of sensitivity.
这个想法是，如果你出生时就穿上那件潜水衣，你可能会觉得自己靠在墙上时有一种特定的感受。但如果你脱掉那件潜水衣，你会惊讶地发现，原来有一种超越感官体验的奇妙世界，是之前完全不了解的。这种体验远远超出了我们以前所能感知的层次。
Now you're trying to find two point discrimination and light strokes and this could be positive or negative pain in other ways too. But what you're describing is essentially that the Wetsuit was never really there. It but was created through a series of action steps. And what I think what we're migrating towards here is a set of for most non-intuitive or non-reflexive action steps that reveal to us that in fact we're not wearing the Wetsuit.
现在你正在尝试测量两点辨别能力和轻触感，这可能会导致不同程度的疼痛反应。不过，你所描述的本质上是，潜水服实际上并不存在，而是通过一系列行动步骤被创造出来的。而我认为，我们正在逐步接近一组大多数人不太直观或不习惯的行动步骤，这些步骤揭示了我们其实并没有穿潜水服。
Now you raised one topic which I think is an allegace to this Wetsuit which is this notion of distraction. The normally distraction is masking what would otherwise be a better experience of life. I can think of distraction as falling into two different bins. One would be the kind of distraction that is internally generated, like the fact that thoughts arise and pull me down different alleyways and avenues of my brain and my thoughts and my experience. And then the other would be and that would compete with my ability to really focus on something. And then another form of distraction which captures my ability to focus intensely but has me focusing on the wrong things. And here I think the judgment of wrong is reasonable to include if for instance I'm being impulsively yanked to something on social media. I'm being impulsively yanked to someone else's pain and experience. And somehow confusing that with my own experience.
你提到的一个话题让我联想到这件潜水服，即分心这个概念。通常，分心会掩盖本可以更好地体验生活的机会。我认为分心可以分为两种类型。一种是由内在产生的分心，比如突然冒出的各种想法把我带入不同的思维通道和方向，这种分心会影响我真正专注于某件事情的能力。另一种分心形式则是让我集中注意力，但关注在不正确的事情上。在这种情况下，我认为判断其"错误"是合理的，比如当我被社交媒体上的内容吸引时，可能会不由自主地沉浸在别人的痛苦和经历中，并且不知不觉中混淆了这些和我自己的体验。
This is an empathy but just yanked around my attention as a spotlight is kind of like over here over there. I'm not feeling as if I'm the one standing behind that spotlight controlling or I'm not the spotlight just to keep with what we've been building up here. So could you tell us a little bit about distraction and tell me whether or not these two forms are in any way accurate or in accurate. I'd be happy for them to be inaccurate and whether or not there are other forms of distraction that we need to be on the lookout for. And again I think what most people are seeking is what is the way to not just enhance our ability to focus but to shed this wetsuit like cloak that limits our experience that I'm calling and that you've called distraction.
这是一种共情，但我的注意力就像聚光灯一样被拉来拉去，有时在这里，有时在那里。我没有觉得自己是站在聚光灯后面控制它的人，也不是那个聚光灯（只是想继续我们之前讨论的内容）。所以，你能不能给我们讲讲分心，并告诉我这两种形式在某种程度上是准确还是不准确的。这两种形式如果不准确我也没关系。还有，我们是不是还应该注意其他形式的分心。另外，我认为大多数人想知道的是，除了提高我们专注力的能力，还能如何摆脱这种限制我们体验的像潜水服一样的东西，我称之为分心，而你也这么称呼它。
Yeah I get well this my distraction is one component of it. The other aspect of it is identification with thought and identification. The feeling of self is bound up in the sense that I'm the thinker I'm the one attending I'm the one vulnerable. I'm the inner kind of the inner homunculus that's vulnerable to experience and they can be gratified by it or not and it's constantly trying to improve it or mitigate negative aspects of it. It's the sense that there's kind of a rider on the horse of consciousness as opposed to just consciousness and its contents.
好的，我明白了。这种分心是其中的一个因素。另一部分是对思想和自我的认同。自我的感觉是，我是那个在思考的人，是那个在关注的人，是那个易受伤害的人。就像是内心有一个小人，是对外界经验脆弱的，可以被满足或不满足，并不断尝试改善或减轻不良的部分。感觉就像是意识之上的骑手，而不仅仅是意识及其内容。
So again it rides the top this illusion of control etc. So to go all the way back to the question you asked about just what is it what do I recommend as a starting point for meditation. Some of your assumptions are in fact true. Yes it's it's you know I often recommend to beginning people close their eyes and you do a sitting practice and that's different from a walking practice. I mean you can do both but people tend to start you know sitting with their eyes closed. But again ultimately where this is going is it's not an art of meditation properly recognized is not an artifice that you're adding to your life.
所以，回到你问的问题，即对初学者我推荐什么作为冥想的起点。你的一些假设其实是对的。是的，我通常建议初学者闭上眼睛进行静坐练习，这和行走练习有些不同。当然，你可以同时练习这两种方法，但人们一般会从闭着眼睛静坐开始。不过，真正的冥想艺术并不是在生活中增加一种人为的东西，最终的目标并不是这么简单。
It's not it's not even a practice. It is it is less rather than more you know and and therefore it is also coincident with you know potentially every waking moment. There's nothing there's nothing that you can do with your attention once you know how to meditate that in principle excludes meditation because meditation is just a recognition of an intrinsic character of consciousness in each moment. All you have in each moment is consciousness and its contents whatever you're doing.
这不是练习，甚至不算是严格意义上的练习。更多的是，它可能伴随着你清醒的每一刻。因此，一旦你学会了冥想，就没有什么能让你用心专注而排除冥想，因为冥想只是对每一刻意识内在特性的认知。在每一刻，你所拥有的就是你的意识和其内容，无论你在做什么。
So so in the beginning you know you'll be very deliberate and precious about deciding to practice meditation and you'll set aside 10 minutes in the morning and you'll do that and then and it'll seem very different from the next 10 minutes when you're you know spilling out onto your to do list and you're trying to figure out you know what the day looks like right but ultimately you want to erase this boundary between formal practice and the rest of life such that there's it's just not remotely findable and and and that's that's achievable and I think even from the very beginning you can relax this conceptual distinction between meditation and its antithesis because it's not it's not at the level of anything you're doing it's the level it's at the level of what's happening in your relationship to thought you know like what can you notice when when you know like it's the transition from you know the by the by stable percept you know you're looking at the at the um the image and you see nothing let's say this you know the Dalmatian you know it's just the spots on the paper and you just you don't see you don't see anything and then all of a sudden the Dalmatian or the face of Jesus or whatever the the images pops out and then you see it it's the transition from nothing to something.
一开始，你知道你会非常有意识地选择练习冥想，你会在早晨特意抽出10分钟来进行冥想。此时，这10分钟似乎与接下来的10分钟有很大不同，因为接下来你可能会忙于列出待办事项清单，思考一天将会如何展开。但最终，你希望能够消除正式练习与生活其他部分之间的界限，使得这种界限几乎难以察觉。这是可以实现的。我认为，甚至从一开始，你就可以放松这种关于冥想与其对立之间的概念区分。因为这并不在于你所做的事情，而是在于你与思维的关系。当你观察事物时，这种关系会发生变化。就像你盯着一张图画，起初你可能什么也看不出来，比如是一只斑点狗或耶稣的脸，你看到的只是纸上的斑点。然后忽然之间，这个形象跃然而出，你就能看到了。这就像是从“无”到“有”的转变。
Right that you the practice becomes the transition from being lost in thought and then waking up and breath you know it's very much like breaking the spell of thought identification with thought is very much like waking up from a dream and having it's like that that transition the whole like you're having a dream and there's a couple things are true. there I mean it it really is a kind of it's a psychosis that is just not we don't problematize because you're safely in bed and you're not moving or even unless you've got some kind of you know sleep disorder you're not walking around harming yourself or anybody else so but to be in bed and to not know it and to think you're you know running along a beach or you know you're you know getting tried for murder in a court of law or whatever the thing is that you're completely delusional about right that is psychosis right and it's like you're fundamentally unaware of your circumstance and then you there two things can happen there you can either become lucid within the dream right which is interesting and that's a whole there's a whole phenomenology of that which can be practiced but more commonly you can just wake up from the dream and all of a sudden the problem you thought you had is no longer there and and you have a completely different context for your conscious life like now you know you're in bed you're safely in bed all all the while there really is something analogous when you break this identification with thought right you're just you're having a thought that seems to be some kind of you know moral or psychological emergency and and yet you can you can the moment you see daylight around it the moment you see that that the mind is larger than then this mere appearance right then you have it suddenly you have a degree of freedom that that a moment ago was just unthinkable right and you're also you've recognized you sort of come to in a way you recognize your circumstance in a way that you weren't a moment ago when you were just talking to yourself when you were just identical to that conversation.
这段话的核心在于描述从思绪中迷失到清醒之间的过程。练习冥想或觉察就是从迷失在思绪中清醒过来的一个过渡，就像打破了对思想的认同。就像从梦中醒来一样，这种清醒可以是忽然发生的，类似于发现自己一直在做梦。
在梦里，你可以完全不知自己是在床上，而以为自己正在海滩奔跑或者在法院里受审，这种情况就像一种 psychosis（精神错乱），但因为我们在床上没动，所以并不会被当作是问题。然而，我们可以两种方式之一从这种状态中出来：其一是在梦中变得清醒，即“清醒梦”；其二就是从梦中醒来，发现先前以为的问题或困扰根本不存在，意识到自己是在床上，处于一个全新的意识环境中。
类似地，当我们打破对思维的认同时，意识到思考的紧急情况实际上是可以被观察和超越的。这时，心灵比简单的思维外表要宽广得多，我们突然获得了一种自由，是之前无法想象的。这就相当于重新认识了周围的环境，不再仅仅是在脑海中自言自语的状态。
So there's all all to say that that ultimately meditation I mean so again there's another apparent paradox here many people don't know much about meditation we'll say things like you know well you know for me running is my meditation or skiing or rock climbing or playing the guitar or something they like to do that gives them an experience of flow that's what that's what they go to to feel better and that's that's the opposite of all the chaos of their lives or the you know their time on Twitter or whatever it is in virtually every case it's it's not true to say that that is effectively meditation you're not going to by learning to play the guitar you're not going to learn what I'm calling meditation and you're not going to learn it by you know cycling or getting and getting no matter how good you get at any of those things you're not going to learn it by doing those things.
总而言之，最终对于冥想这一概念来说，有一个明显的矛盾：许多人对冥想知之甚少，或会说一些诸如“对我而言，跑步就是我的冥想”或“滑雪、攀岩、弹吉他等是我的冥想”的话。这些活动会让他们体验到一种“心流”的状态，使他们感到心情愉快，并且这些活动与他们生活中的混乱或在社交媒体上度过的时光完全相反。然而，在几乎所有情况下，说这些活动等同于冥想是不准确的。通过学习弹吉他或者骑自行车，无论你在这些活动中多么熟练，都无法学到我所描述的真正意义上的冥想。
But paradoxically when you're not really but it can seem like a paradox once you know how to meditate then you can meditate doing all of those things right meditation is totally compatible with playing the guitar or skiing or you know doing any ordinary thing you like to do right so once you know how to meditate and again it's totally natural in the beginning to formalize it and to set aside time each day to do it because it is a it is a training I mean it is something that in the beginning you have to get used to but once you have once you're getting used to it then there is no good reason not to be experiencing this thing I'm calling meditation this this insight into the the centerlessness of consciousness the the the non-selfhood of consciousness you should experience it when you're playing your favorite sport or when you're having a conversation with somebody and then the reason then to come back to your initial assumption about eyes closed a lot of practice even formal practice can be done eyes open.
但矛盾的是，当你刚开始学习冥想时，可能会觉得有些令人困惑。一旦你懂得如何冥想，你就会发现冥想可以与弹吉他或滑雪等活动完全兼容，以及任何你喜欢做的普通事情。在刚开始时，把冥想形式化，每天专门留出时间来练习是很自然的，因为这是一种训练。而习惯之后，就没有理由不体验我所说的冥想，去感受意识的无中心性和无自性。你应该在玩自己喜欢的运动或与人交流时体验这种感受。另外，关于闭着眼睛冥想的初始假设，实际上许多练习即使是正式的冥想练习，也可以睁着眼睛进行。
And it's important to do it eyes open because so much of our anchoring of our sense of self is is based on visual cues I mean we just we we know that you can if you give people the right visual cues you can translocate their sense of self you can give them an out of body experience you know with a with a video display where you can literally make them feel like you know there's a body swapping illusion you can make them you can make them feel that they're in another person's body looking back at their body if you if you run the cameras the right way I've done this in VR seeing an image of of you they create an avatar for you and then your bodily movements generate the movements of the avatar and you start gaining presence as they call it in the VR lingo very quickly and then pretty soon you lose sense of your own bodily representation and yeah and it's a little eerie what's serious to me is I'm going back into of course never left but back into your actual body when the VR goggles pop off the.
这段话的核心意思是强调视觉在构建自我感知中的重要性。翻译成中文是：
"保持眼睛睁开是很重要的，因为我们的自我认知在很大程度上依赖于视觉线索。如果你给人们提供合适的视觉线索，他们的自我感知可以被转移，甚至可以让他们产生一种所谓的‘灵魂出窍’的体验。通过视频显示，你可以让他们感觉像是在另外一个人的身体中，从而看到自己的身体。如果摄像机设置得当，可以实现身体交换的错觉。我在虚拟现实中体验过这一点，你可以为自己创建一个虚拟形象，然后通过动作感应模拟虚拟形象的动作。很快，你就会开始感受到一种存在感，这是虚拟现实中的一种术语。不久之后，你甚至会失去对自己身体表现的感觉，很奇妙。当摘掉VR眼镜时，你回到了现实中，回到了自己的身体。"
这一段话探讨了视觉感知的力量以及虚拟现实技术如何影响人的自我存在感。
World seems almost overwhelming the number of sensory stimuli that are in a like a laboratory room which is actually quite sparse right so exactly what you describe this translocation of of notions of self through visual experience and but conversely when you lose the sense of self the sense of self I'm talking about it can be especially vivid and salient with eyes open because because so much so many of your reference points to selfhood are delivered visually right especially in a social situation so like you know I'm talking to you you're looking back at me right so you're the implication of your gaze is that I'm over here behind my face implicated by your gaze like so the sense that you're looking at something is the sense of self in that social context right and so and if you're if your facial expression changes like so I'm saying something and if you kind of throw your brow like well what the hell is it you know and I can read into that facial change some interstate of yours that is you know salient to me all of a sudden we've got this sort of dance of like I'm noticing you reacting to me and I'm that's changing the way I'm feeling about what I'm that that's that's the you know the the purview of you know every neurosis everyone didn't want right and every relationship.
世界似乎充满了各种感官刺激，就像一个实验室房间里的情况，虽然实际上房间很稀疏。你描述的这种通过视觉体验将自我观念转移的过程相当贴切。相反，当你失去自我感时，尤其在睁眼时，这种自我感会变得特别鲜明和显著，因为很多关于自我的参照点都是通过视觉传递的，特别是在社交场合中。比如，当我和你交谈，你回望着我时，你的目光暗示着我就在我的脸后面存在。你在看着某物的感觉就是在这种社交环境中对自我的感知。如果你的面部表情有变化，比如当我说话时你皱起眉头，我可以从你的面部变化中读出某种对我来说特别明显的内心状态。于是，我们就有了这样一场舞蹈：我注意到你对我的反应，这改变了我对自己在说什么的感觉。这几乎是每个人都会经历的神经质反应和每段关系的动态。
I had a girlfriend when I was a postdoc who was who was very very she was brilliant really still is and she always said that every relationship is there are four arrows she used to say she's a neuroscientist still is and said you know there's the arrow of you know she was talking to me so she said you know me to you and kind of what you perceive coming from me and then there's you to me and then there's an arrow from the middle going right back at each one of us right which is our own perception of what the other person is thinking about us and it's feeding back on the other arrow and she gave me this very clear but model of basically relationships and the relationship failed but it was good while it lasted I should say and but the four arrow model of relationships actually shows up in every type of one one on one of relationships and it's probably an under description of the total number of arrows but as I think it's exactly what you're describing is that perception of self through the eyes of other whether or not we're empathic or not strongly shapes the way that we access different context dependent rule sets about what we're going to say and not going to say it's a very dynamic right.
我在做博士后研究时有一个女朋友，她非常聪明，现在依然如此。她总是说每段关系中都有四个“箭头”。她是一位神经科学家，现在仍然是。她说每段关系中都有四个“箭头”：一个是从我到你——也就是我向你传达的感觉；另一个是从你到我——你对我传达的感觉；第三个箭头是从中间指向我们每个人，它代表我们自己对对方怎么看我们的感知，而这种感知会反作用于之前的两个箭头。
她用这个非常清晰的模型来解释关系的复杂性。虽然这段关系最后失败了，但在它持续的时间里仍然是美好的。她的“箭头模型”其实适用于任何一对一的关系。虽然这个模型可能不完全涵盖所有的互动复杂性，但我觉得这正是你所描述的——通过他人的眼光来看待自己的感知。不论我们是否富有同理心，这都会极大地影响我们在不同情境中采取什么样的交流规则。这确实是一个非常动态的过程。
Yeah so but the the freedom that I think we want and people can sometimes experience this just haphazardly but the the thing that the center of the bullseye from the meditative point of view is to get off that ride entirely and to so so the losing the sense of self in this context of of a social encounter is to is to give up your face essentially like your like so and and what what that entails is or what that gives you is the free attention to actually just pay attention. to the other person right and the other person is now no longer quite an object in the world for you there's really just a kind of a totality of which that person is a part and and and actually you know Martin Boober the the kind of mystical uh Jewish philosopher uh talked about the kind of the i-thal relationship and then this I think is you know it's been long sometimes and I've read Boober but um and I don't know if he goes you know far enough to be truly non-dualistic but this distinction between I I and now um because the the the vow part of it is is I think potentially this or I mean again it's been several decades since I read read him but there's a there's a there's a way of beholding another person where you have the free attention to simply behold them right like you're no longer you're no longer care what they think about you.
我认为，我们所追求的自由，有时候人们可能会偶然体验到，但从冥想的角度来看，关键在于完全摆脱这种经历。在社交互动中，失去自我感是从根本上放下自己的“面具”。这意味着，你可以将注意力完全放在对方身上，此时对方不再只是你世界中的一个客体，而是一种整体的一部分。
犹太神秘哲学家马丁·布伯曾谈到一种"我-你"的关系，虽然我已经很久没有读过布伯的作品了，也不确定他是否走得足够远达到真正的非二元论，但他提到的“我”和“你”之间的区别和互动很有启发性。这种“你”的部分可能就是这种关系的一部分。你可以专注地关注另一个人，不再关心他们对你的看法。
You don't feel ironically implicated by their gaze you don't feel you you're you're simply the space in which they're appearing right and so you're free you're like it's like there's just there's no and and people can feel and so you're you're by definition you're no longer self-conscious right and when it's and this phrase self-consciousness really does get at this what I'm calling the self the the eluciryself as a kind of contraction and and you can you can notice this for yourself just imagine what it's like to go from not being self-conscious to suddenly being self-conscious and the the the the the the proximate cause of this you know very almost invariably is suddenly recognizing that somebody's looking at you right so like you're in a Starbucks and you're you know you're alone and you're reading the newspaper or whatever it is and this is now sounds highly anachronistic it's been three years since I've held a physical newspaper I think in a Starbucks but you know you're you're you're just mind your own business and you look up and you're just you're seeing you know a room full of strangers but then you notice that someone is just looking at you.
当你不再用讽刺的眼光去感受别人对你的注视时，你会意识到自己只是一个背景，一个空间，供他们出现的场所。在这种状态下，你获得了自由，因为再没有那种让你感到不自在的元素存在。这样一来，你自然不会再有“自我意识”。所谓的“自我意识”正是我所说的那种自我收缩的体现。你可以试着感受一下自己从没有自我意识到突然产生自我意识的变化，这种变化几乎总是由于你突然意识到有人在注视你。比如说，你在星巴克一个人读报纸，这个场景现在听起来有些过时，因为我已经三年没有在星巴克拿过纸质报纸了。这时，你抬起头，看到满屋子陌生人，却突然注意到有人在看着你。
You know and so like that moment of eye contact right suddenly that throws you back on yourself as a kind of suddenly you're the object in in the world for that other person that recognition is a the tightening there the kind of contraction there is a is a a a further ramification of this this feeling most of us have most of the time of being the center of experience like the the place you feel like like it's it's like you know we're all walking around with a fist and in moments of self-consciousness.
你知道，就像那一瞬间的眼神接触，突然让你感到回到了自己的内心，仿佛在那一刻，你成为了对方眼中的一个"客体"。这种认知带来的紧张感和收缩感，是我们大多数人经常感到自己是体验中心的进一步体现。就像在这样的自我意识的时刻，我们每个人都像是握着一个拳头在走路。
The fist gets really tight you know and that's and that's some that's the thing that gets fully relaxed when you discover this this what I'm you know in various points called the nature of mind or the the the non-dual nature of consciousness is just that there is no center to this experience and when you recognize no center then even when your gaze is aimed at another person's gaze there is no implication going back to the center because there is no center right and and rather than that being an experience of weird detachment or confusion or or it's it's actually an experience of greater relationship because you're no longer you no longer defend it you're not you're not defending anything over here like you're not you're not braced against anything you're just the space in which that person is showing up and so it's a it's a it's a an experience of being much more comfortable in in the presence of another person well you know whatever your relationship because you're not contracting right.
拳头会变得非常紧绷，你知道的，那就是当你发现这个，我有时称之为心灵的本质或者意识的非二元性质时，它会完全放松的事情。因为在这种体验中没有中心。当你意识到没有中心时，即使你的目光对着另一个人的目光，也不会回到某个中心，因为根本没有中心。与其说这是一种奇怪的疏离或困惑的体验，倒不如说它是一种更深的关系体验，因为你不再在意去防御自己，你没有在抵御任何东西。你只是让对方成为出现在这个空间中的存在。因此，无论你们的关系如何，这都是一种在其他人面前感到更加舒适的体验，因为你不再紧绷。
And then when you do when you have that again and this is meditation right this is meditation that is totally compatible with having a conversation with somebody and then when you notice yourself contracting like when you notice you're not doing you're not meditating anymore you're just you're actually reacting like they just said something or looked a certain way and now you're cast back upon yourself in relationship to them that becomes a kind of mindfulness alarm right then you know that that that it becomes like the the the unsatisfactoriness of that psychologically becomes more and more salient right and it's um because that's not one that's not the way you want to be and that's like it's the antithesis of being as comfortable as you were a moment ago but to it's it's something you're doing unnecessarily right like it's like you're you're you're like again you're making a fist when you don't have to make a fist right.
当你在进行这样的练习时，这其实就是一种冥想。这样的冥想完全可以融入与他人的对话中。当你注意到自己感到紧张时，比如你不再冥想了，而是在做出反应，比如因为对方说了什么或有某种表情，你因此开始关注自己的内心，这就是一种正念提醒。你会意识到这种心理上的不满足感变得越来越明显，因为这不是你想要的状态，它和你刚刚还感到舒适的状态完全相反。此外，这种紧张是没有必要的，就像你在不需要握拳的时候却握起了拳头。
And it's um again we can leave aside all those circumstances where it's appropriate to react to someone and you know um you know I'm into martial arts and self-defense and yes you're not supposed to be just this puddle of goo out in the world who can be just mistreated by people and and you know never put up you know resistance but it's um psychologically you know even if even if a state like anger or contraction is sometimes normative and appropriate the question is how long is it normative and appropriate for like how how long do you want to stay angry for um in my experience these you know it's kind of classically negative emotions like anger and fear are appropriate as salience cues you know they they orient you to you know an emergency or a potential emergency but then in dealing with the emergency they're almost never the state you want to be in you know it's like you don't you know you know you like it's it's better to actually become in an emergency you know.
这段话的大意是：我们可以暂且不考虑在某些情况下，反应是恰当的。比如我对武术和自卫很感兴趣，你不能因为害怕被欺负就不做任何反应。在心理层面上，即便愤怒这样的情绪有时是正常且合适的，但问题在于这样的状态应该持续多久。在我的经验中，这些典型的负面情绪如愤怒和恐惧，适合作为一种显著的提示信号，让你注意到紧急情况或潜在的紧急情况。但是在处理这些紧急情况时，保持这些负面情绪几乎不是最好的选择。在紧急情况下，保持冷静其实更好。
So well absolutely I think that um and again the language is is insufficient to describe what what you're telling us but I think what comes to mind for me is this distinction between situational awareness and self-awareness and we need both but under conditions of the emergency true emergency or motivated desire we need to dial down the amount of self-awareness in order to be more effective within the situational awareness but you said something very important in my lab has been working on fear like states for a long time so I'm gonna I confess I'm gonna rob this from you but I'll credit you every time I describe is that that the that the fear of the threat detection state or set of events acts as a as a flag but is not meant to persist in the way that the flag went up right if one is to be in their most adaptive state actually jocke o'willink and I were talking about this he has talked a lot about detachment and open gaze.
当然，我完全同意你的看法，而且再说一遍，语言实在是难以充分描述你所表达的意思。但我认为，在我脑海中浮现的是对情景意识和自我意识之间的区别的思考。我们需要两者，但在真正的紧急情况或强烈动机下，我们需要降低自我意识，以便在情景意识中更有效地应对。然而，你提到了一点非常重要的事情，我的实验室一直在研究类似恐惧的状态很久了，所以我承认我要借用你的观点，但每次我描述时都会注明出处。恐惧或威胁检测状态类似于一个警示标志，但这种警示不应该像升起旗帜那样持续存在。如果一个人要处于最佳的适应状态，实际上我和乔克·威林克就此进行过讨论，他对此多次谈及过抽离和开放的视野。
Things that my lab is interested in visual system and autonomic interaction so white broadening the gaze literally broadens the time domain of thinking you've come up with new solutions to complex problems in real time and so on and um and you're describing every day set of interactions where that could be very useful and yet there seems to be something about the way you describe meditation and what you've managed to arrive at and what practitioners of meditation can arrive at which is something more than that like it it's not just about being effective or optimizing all the language we see thrown around a lot in the space.
我的实验室对视觉系统和自主神经系统的互动非常感兴趣，因此，当我们扩大视野时（字面上和比喻上），实际上是在拓宽思维的时间域，这让你能够实时找到复杂问题的解决方案等等。你描述的日常互动方式可能非常有用。然而，你提到的冥想和冥想实践者可以达到的状态似乎不止于此。这不仅仅是关于提高效率或优化，而是超越我们在这个领域常用的语言。
That I live in these days but um but something fundamentally more important about how to experience life and the self this this realization that what you thought was there was never really there there but that there are constraints that limit that and so to try and fracture those just constraints one by one would you say that meditation as a practice done for a few minutes each day or with the app that it's a kind of a step function is a very non-linear in terms of people's progress you know I'm certainly going to go um start doing more meditation based on this discussion truly um because anytime someone describes that um that there's kind of a myth that we've been living in I I become obsessed with the idea of dissolving that myth right that's a very seductive yeah so thank you for using that one there is no better marketing tool which is I realize what you're not trying to do here but that's for me to capture my my um efforts you tell me that there's a myth that I'm living in and that it can be dissolved and that opens up a better landscape um
我生活在这个时代，但有一些更为根本的重要事情关于如何体验生活和自我。意识到你以为存在的东西，其实从未真正存在，但有某些限制使我们无法完全意识到这一点。所以，要尝试一个一个地打破这些限制。你是否认为每天花几分钟练习冥想，或者使用应用程序进行冥想，这种方式在个人进步上是一种台阶式的跳跃？非常非线性的变化。基于这次讨论，我确实要开始更多地进行冥想了。因为任何时候当有人提到我们一直生活在某种神话中时，我就对打破这个神话的想法产生了极大的兴趣。这样非常吸引人，谢谢你用这种方式表达。虽然我知道这并不是你的目的，但这确实是我们存在的一种最好的“营销工具”。你告诉我我所处的神话可以被打破，并且可以开启一个更广阔的天地。
Yeah what is the process like is it do some people make progress very quickly do some people um experience kind of step functions towards progress what does that meditation practice look like over time do you still meditate or do you have you just threaded it through your jiu jitsu you're writing your daily life your coffee your time with your wife etc yeah also just to come back to just to talk about the myth for a second so they're really what you just denunciated was a kind of a second doorway into this whole project so like the the usual door is through the door of suffering for lack of a better word I mean people feel unhappy in a variety of ways and they get more sensitized to the mechanics of their own unhappiness and meditation is one of the things on the menu the scene that is explicitly built as a remedy for for unhappiness and uh and it is and that's you know I think that's probably the most common path to this but another path is just intellectual interest I mean just wanting to know what's real so about the mind subjectively you know in a first person way and and there's no contradiction between those two things I'm motivated by both of them but um you know it's a totally valid doorway into this um
好的，下面是这段英文的中文翻译，尽量简明易读：
那么，这个过程是怎样的呢？有些人是否进步得很快，而另一些人则是以某种阶梯式的方式取得进展？随着时间的推移，冥想练习会呈现怎样的状态？你现在还继续冥想吗？还是已经把它融入了你的日常生活，比如柔术训练、写作、喝咖啡、和妻子共度的时光等等？
另外，再谈一下这个“神话”。你刚才提到的是进入这个项目的另一扇门。通常的门是通过痛苦这扇门来进入的，简单来说，人们以多种方式感到不快乐，并逐渐对自身不快乐的机制更加敏感，而冥想就是提供的解决方案之一，被明确地作为对抗不快乐的灵药。我认为这是进入这一领域最常见的途径。但另一条途径则是出于智力上的兴趣，纯粹想了解什么是真实的，特别是在主观层面和第一人称视角上的探寻。这两者之间并不矛盾，我是被这两方面同时吸引的，但这也是完全合理的进入之门。
There are definitely step functions I would say they're they're at least two I mean the and they really are articulated along the lines of of the framework I've been describing of dualistic and non-dualistic mindfulness right so in the beginning you're going to start out you know 99.9 percent people start out dualistically paying attention and and noticing the difference between being distracted by thought and then being on the object of attention whether it's the breath or sounds or whatever and eventually that you know that opens up to all possible objects of attention including thoughts and the and there's still this fluctuation between being distracted and then being mindful of whatever and the fact that it's opened all possible objects differentiates this type of practice from anything that is narrowly focused on one object like a mantra or a visualization or so you know those are other paths of practice that are more concentration based um and interesting but the the benefit of mindfulness is that very quickly you realize this by definition compatible with all possible experience because you're not artificially contracting your attention down to something you're you're just being aware of the next thing a site a sound a taste a thought um
我想说这里肯定有阶段性，我认为至少有两个阶段。实际上，它们是基于我所描述的“双重心态与非双重心态”框架来划分的。起初，99.9%的人是以双重心态开始练习的，他们会意识到自己是在分心思考还是专注于关注的对象，不论是呼吸、声音还是别的东西。最终，这个练习会扩展到所有可能的注意对象，包括念头，即便仍然会在分心和专注之间波动。但这种扩展到所有可能对象的心态练习将这种方式和那些只专注于一个对象的练习区分开来，比如咒语或观想，那些路径更注重集中注意力，虽然也很有趣，但是正念的好处在于，你会很快意识到，正念从根本上是兼容所有可能的体验的，因为你没有人为地将注意力收缩到某个特定对象上，只是意识到下一个事物：一个景象、一种声音、一种味道或是一个念头。
So the first step function is to very clearly experience the difference between being lost in thought and being clearly aware of any part of experience including thought and to notice the freedom that compared a psychological freedom that gives you right so you can like you're something's made you angry and now you're thinking about all the reasons why you should be angry and have every right to be angry and what you're going to tell that person when you see them and and then you notice your thinking right and you notice the connection between the thought and the anger right you like like the the minute spent lost in thought about what's making you angry is the thing that dragged through the physiology of anger right and the moment you notice that once you're mindful once you can be mindful you can notice thought as thought and how quickly that dissipates that's just the language and the imagery just you couldn't hold on to it if you wanted to and then you notice the physiology of the anger is just this you kind of meaningless uh you know kind of inner in-can descents that has its own half life and degrades very very quickly when you're no longer thinking about the reasons why you should be angry you can't hold on to the anger the anger itself dissipates right and from some from the point of view of the one who's being mindful this is tremendous relief I mean and at minimum it's a degree of freedom you can at that point decide well how long do I want to be angry for right is it useful to stay angry do I want to be angry for one minute two minutes five minutes ten minutes or because and before you have that capacity to be mindful you're going to helplessly be as angry as you're going to be for as long as you're going to be that way just based on the kind of the time course of your thinking about it brooding about it telling your wife about it you know like it just the you know it's just going to be this conversation based misadventure in you know negative uh states of mind uh and you are you are going to be the hostage of that for as long as you'll be the hostage of that you have nothing you can do apart from just deciding to you know check out and watch game of thrones again for the third time right like like it's just you can divert your attention to something else which is you know sometimes a good thing to do but mindfulness even dualistic mindfulness gives you this capacity to just observe the mechanics of this and then get off the ride when you when you whenever you want so that really is a step function like first there was a time when there's a time before you could do that and then there's a time after which you can do that.
第一步是要非常清楚地感受“沉浸在思维中”和“清晰地意识到体验的任一部分（包括思维）”之间的区别，并注意到这种区别带来的心理自由感。比如，有什么事情让你生气，你不停地在脑海中想着为什么你该生气，以及你见到对方时打算说些什么。这时，如果你能够意识到自己的思维，并注意到思维与愤怒之间的联系，你就会发现，沉浸在让你生气的想法中的每一分钟，实际上都会引发身体上愤怒的反应。但当你变得觉察并能意识到思维只不过是思维时，你会发现这些想法和画面会很快消散，就算想要抓住它们也抓不住。同时，愤怒的生理反应也会迅速减弱，最终消失。甚至从一个有意识察觉的人的角度来看，这是一种极大的解脱。至少，它给你带来自由，你可以选择自己想要愤怒多长时间：一分钟、两分钟、五分钟、十分钟？当你还没有这种觉察能力时，你往往会无奈地被愤怒情绪困扰，因为你会不停地想着、不满地抱怨着，直到某个时候可能因为决定去看《权力的游戏》而转移注意力。但通过觉察，你可以理解情绪的运行机制，并在任何时候选择“下车”。这就像一个分水岭：在这之前你无法做到，而在这之后你可以做到。
The other step function is noticing that there is no one who is doing that I mean this is the non duality the selflessness the centrallessness of awareness right the fact that there's no place from which the mindfulness is being aimed but the fact that there's just this open condition in which everything is appearing you know thoughts included to have you as at that point your mindfulness no longer becomes it's no longer this this dualistic effort to strategically pay attention to anything as opposed to being lost in thought it's just what's left when thoughts when when when the present recognize thought unravels even before it unravels what's recognized is you are simply identical to the condition in which everything is appearing again this is not a I'm not making a a a depock trope bra like metaphysical claim about the mind you know this is not I'm not saying the mind isn't what the brain is doing I'm not saying that you're recognizing the consciousness that gave birth to the universe and I'm not making any broad claims about metaphysics I'm just talking about as a matter of experience there is just this condition in which everything is appearing right and what you're calling your body again as a matter of experience I'm not saying that we can't have third person conversations about you know physical bodies in a physical world but as a matter of experience the only body you're ever going to directly encounter as your own is an appearance in consciousness right so consciousness is not in your body what you're calling your body is in consciousness you know visually proprioceptively it's like everything is just appearing in this condition and again you're not aiming that you're not this is not a spotlight that you're aiming at the body or at you know there's just this condition in which everything including anything you could call yourself is appearing and so yeah so that's the second step function is to recognize that this is all this is already true consciousness is already without this thing you've been calling your ego hoping and you know hoping to unravel it through meditation consciousness is not going to get any more selfless any more centralist any freer than it all always already is recognized as such and so that's that's the that the step function at that point is your.
另一个关键步骤是意识到没有人真正“做到”这一点。我的意思是，这就是无二性、自我消失以及意识的无中心性。事实上，没有一个特定的地方可以说是专门进行正念的源头，而是存在一种开放的状态，在其中一切都在显现，包括思想。在这种状态下，你的正念不再是为了避免被思绪淹没而有意地付出注意力的二元努力，而是简单地由那些当下被识别出来的思想所留下的。当思想展开甚至在展开之前，你会意识到自己和一切显现的状态是一样的。
这并不是说我是从玄学的角度在讨论心灵，我并没有宣称心灵就是大脑的运作过程，也没有说你能认知到创造宇宙的意识。我这里只是从体验的层面来说，有一种状态在其中一切都在显现。从体验的角度看，你所谓的身体其实是意识中的一个显现。我不是说我们不能从第三人称的角度讨论物理世界中的身体，而是从体验上讲，你唯一能直接接触到的身体就是意识中的一个呈现。所以意识并不在你的身体中，而恰恰相反，你所谓的身体是在意识中，无论从视觉还是本体感受上看，一切都是在这种状态中显现的。
你并没有主动地把意识的光束指向你的身体或其他任何东西，这种状态中一切，包括你所称的自我，都在显现。这就是第二个关键步骤：承认这早已是真实的。意识从一开始就没有那个你所称之为自我的东西，也不需要通过冥想来“解开”它。意识不会变得比它现在的状态更无私、无中心或自由，它从头到尾一直是这样。
Mindfulness at that point the thing you come back to when you're no longer distracted is that that recognition again and again and then it becomes yeah it becomes compatible with anything you would do and so they answer your question yes I still practice you know formally you know sometimes you know frequently but not you know I definitely miss days and I don't do it for I mean I you know I don't rule out the the possibility that I will go back on retreat at various times just to you know check in with that and see if that makes a difference but you know I you know I tend to sit for I mean I tend to I've designed my life so that I can spend a lot of time meditating without having to be formally meditating like so you know I'll you know I'll go for a hike for two hours right and what I'm doing when I'm hiking is identical to what I'm doing when I'm quote meditating you know sitting in a chair you know doing nothing but meditate so it's yeah I mean I just again I the I'm very I'm very interested in erasing the boundary between what people are calling meditation and the rest of life and that so that's in teaching these things I tend to emphasize that from the beginning because I think it's it's very easy to set up to get to get gold by a bunch of assumptions that cause you to be very split in your sense of what your life is about and like I'm sort of banking my meditation over here because I'm I'm meditating two hours a day diligently and you know this is going to be really good for me and then over here is the rest of my life which is not nearly as wise or as useful or as like this is the stuff that is still the area of my problems and I think it's useful to recognize you've got one you've got one life you know and you've got this this this single condition of consciousness and its contents in every mode of life and there's something to recognize about it and you're always free to recognize that and you're truly even in your dreams right I mean it's just not this it never stops so that's that's what I tend to emphasize.
正念的练习在于当你不再分心时回到那个状态，一次又一次地觉察，逐渐让它与任何行动都兼容。回答你的问题，是的，我仍然定期实践，有时候比较频繁，但也有时候会错过几天。我不排除将来会去参加静修，以此检视自身状态，看看是否会有所不同。不过，我已经设计了自己的生活，使自己能在不正式打坐的情况下，花更多时间进行冥想。比如说，我可能会进行两小时的远足，而我在远足时所做的事情，与我坐在椅子上“正式”冥想是一样的。因此，我非常感兴趣的是抹去人们所谓的冥想与生活其他部分之间的界限。在教授这些事情时，我倾向于从一开始就强调这一点，因为很容易产生一些假设，导致你对生活的理解变得分裂。就像你可能会觉得“我在努力每天打坐两个小时，这对我会很有帮助”，但生活的其他部分似乎就没那么明智、没那么有用，不像冥想那样，这是困扰所在的重要领域。我认为识别到你的生命是一个整体很有帮助，你有一个单一的意识状态及其在生活各方面的内容，总有一些东西值得你去觉察，你随时随地都能够做到这一点，甚至在梦境中也不例外。正因如此，我倾向于一直强调这个观点。
So earlier you told us that meditation is not about changing the content of conscious experience and in a different podcast that you were on heard you say something to the effect of that normally we are in our daily experience and unless we are trained in meditation unless we've dissolved this illusion of the gap between actor and self and observer that we require certain sensory events to create collisions within us and with the natural world that sort of you know blast us into a different mode of being. I want to use that as a way to frame up this idea that some things such as psychedelics but also a very long hike, a very long fast, um you know who knows a banquet, you know different types of life experiences do exactly the opposite of what you're describing meditation does which is that they actively change the content of our conscious experience so much so that we often remember those for the rest of our lives.
之前你告诉我们，冥想并不是为了改变意识体验的内容。在另一个你参与的播客中，我听你说，我们平时在日常生活中，如果没有经过冥想训练，没有打破"行动者与自我和观察者之间的幻觉"，我们需要某些感官事件来激发我们内心与自然世界的冲突，从而将我们带入一种不同的存在状态。我想用这个来引入一个概念，即某些事物，比如迷幻药、一次漫长的徒步旅行、长时间的禁食，甚至是一场盛宴，不同类型的生活体验恰恰与冥想相反，这些经历积极改变了我们意识体验的内容，以至于我们往往终生难忘。
Yeah could you tell us why psychedelics can be useful and here I give the caveats that maybe you'll feel obligated to give as well but this we're talking about you safely and responsibly age appropriate context appropriate ideally with some clinical or other type of guidance legality issues obeyed etc. All that stated it was psychedelics to me are an experience of altered perception internal and external perception altered space time relationship somewhat dreamlike. I think it was Alan Hobbson at Harvard for a long time talked about the relationship between psychedelic like states and dreamlike states um because of this distortion of space time dimensionality.
当然可以，您能告诉我们为什么迷幻药可能有用吗？在这里，我也要提一下您可能会觉得有必要去谈的一些注意事项，比如我们讨论的是在安全、负责任的情况下使用，针对适当的年龄和情境，理想情况下是在一些临床或其他类型的指导下进行，而且要遵守法律规定。在这些前提下，我认为迷幻药带给我的体验是感知的改变，包括内在和外在的感知、空间和时间关系的改变，有点像做梦。我记得哈佛的艾伦·霍布森曾经谈到过迷幻状态和梦境状态之间的关系，因为空间时间的维度扭曲。
Um and I haven't uh experimented with them much um I've been part of a clinical trial three doses of MDMA which certainly altered my the quality of my conscious experience in ways that led to a lot of lasting and at least for me valuable learning. Yeah yeah so what are your what are your thoughts about psychedelics in terms of how they intersect with the discussion that we've been having and um what utility do they play and recognition of the self for in other sorts of brain changes?
嗯，我还没有太多尝试过它们。我参与过一个临床试验，服用过三次MDMA，这确实改变了我的意识体验质量，并带来了许多持续且对我来说有价值的学习。是啊，是啊，所以你对迷幻药有什么看法？关于它们如何与我们一直在讨论的话题交叉，以及它们在自我识别或其他类型的脑部变化中起到什么作用？
Well so yeah let's just price in all those caveats that people can anticipate that these drugs are not without their risks and it's one problem is that we have this single term drugs or psychedelics which names many different types of substances and they're not all the same and they're not so like MDMA is not even technically a psychedelic I think it has immense therapeutic value and it actually was my gateway drug to this this whole area of concern um fetamine pathogen right it's a sort of an emphetamine and a pathogen.
好的，我们来考虑所有这些警告，人们可以预见到这些药物并不是没有风险的问题。我们用一个词“药物”或“迷幻药”来指代很多不同类型的物质，但它们并不完全相同。比如，MDMA 严格来说甚至不算是迷幻药。我认为它在治疗上有着巨大的价值，事实上，它是我进入这个领域的入门药物。MDMA 是一种安非他命类的药物，也是一种致病物质。
Yeah yeah I mean it's often called pathogens yeah an empathogen yeah not pathogen yeah no pathogen yeah an empathogen or an intactogen it's it's been called um but it doesn't tend to change perception in the way that classic psychedelics do and it's it's it's also serotonergic but it's it's not it has to be in some part differently so then me even LSD and psilocybin which are much more similar in classic psychedelics both are also serotonergic but they're not merely so and they're they're also different.
是的，是的，我的意思是，它通常被称为“共情原”或“心灵增效剂”，不是“病原体”。它与经典致幻剂不同，不倾向于改变感知。虽然它也是通过影响血清素起作用，但方式有所不同。即使是LSD和裸盖菇素（psilocybin），它们在经典致幻剂中更为相似，也是通过影响血清素起作用，但不仅限于此，它们之间也有不同之处。
Um and the higher dose you take of these drugs the more you at lower doses everything can kind of seem the same at higher doses they they they begin to diverge um and we can talk about the pharmacology if you wanted to but um the uh I would just say that for many of us and certainly for me psychedelics were indispensable in the beginning in proving to me that this was the the the the first person interrogation of the mind was worth doing you know because you know I was somebody who at you know age 17 or 18 before I had any real experience with um with MDMA or LSD or psilocybin um if you had taught me how to meditate at that point I think I would have just bounced off the whole project.
嗯，这些药物的剂量越高，它们的效果就越明显。在较低剂量时，一切看起来可能差不多，但在较高剂量时，它们的效果就会开始产生差异。我们可以讨论其药理作用，如果你感兴趣的话。不过，我想说的是，对我们很多人，至少对我来说，迷幻药在一开始是不可或缺的，它让我相信对内心的亲身探索是值得的。要知道，在我17或18岁、还没有真正体验过MDMA、LSD或裸盖菇素之前，如果那时候有人教我冥想，我可能根本不会去尝试。
I think my mind was I was just I was so cerebral in my just my engagement with anything I was so skeptical of any of the the spiritual the religious and spiritual traditions that that have given us most of our meditation talk you know um that I think I just would have um and I know many of these people like I you know I have I have tried to teach you know Richard Dawkins to meditate and Daniel Dennett to meditate. I've ambushed them with meditation and you know both both in a group setting and and one-on-one not not Dan but uh but Richard I I am pushed on my own podcast with a guided meditation and he just you know from his he you know he closes his eyes he looks inside and there's nothing of interest to see right like it's just it's like it's not he doesn't have the the um the conceptual interest in him that would that would cause him to persist long enough to find out that there's a there there.
我觉得当时我的思维模式就是太理性了，对任何事情的参与都充满了怀疑，尤其是对那些给予我们很多冥想传统的宗教和精神传统。我觉得如果是我的话，我可能会......而且我认识许多这样的人。我曾试图教理查德·道金斯和丹尼尔·丹尼特冥想，我在群组和一对一的情况下都尝试过。虽然没和丹尼特一对一，但我在自己的播客上逼理查德进行引导式冥想。他闭上眼睛，往内心去看，却没有发现任何有趣的东西。对他来说，没有足够的兴趣促使他坚持下去，去发现潜藏的内在价值。
Right now this is not a problem with LSD or psilocybin or MDMA I know that if I gave him 100 micrograms of LSD or five grams of of mushrooms or you know 20 you know 25 milligrams of psilocybin that's probably not the analogous dosage to the five grams of mushrooms. Five grams of mushrooms would be more than that um I forget what it is of of MDMA maybe 120 milligrams of I think the map's dose is uh which is the one that's under clinical trials is 125 milligrams with the option of a 75 milligram booster right right right funny I remember the strange the facts that come to hand but uh there's not there's just no possibility that nothing's going to happen right now something with with a psychedelic we with MDMA most people tend to have a certainly under any kind of guidance tend to have a very positive you know pro-social experience um um but you know with a psychedelic you might have a a a a um a somewhat you know terrifying experience if you have quote a bad trip you know you know and I've certainly had those experiences on on LSD and and to some degree in psilocybin but um the prospect that nothing is going to happen is just you know a million you know nearly a million cases out of a million just not in the cards.
目前，LSD、裸盖菇素或者MDMA都不成问题。我知道，如果我给他100微克的LSD，或者五克的蘑菇，或者20到25毫克的裸盖菇素，可能不是相当于五克蘑菇的剂量。五克的蘑菇应该会超过这个剂量。而对于MDMA，我记不太清，可能是120毫克。我记得在临床试验中的剂量是125毫克，还有一次可选的75毫克加强剂。对，没错。我对一些奇怪的知识点记得特别清楚，但是，现在这种情况下，不会出现毫无反应的可能性。使用迷幻药物或MDMA时，大多数人在有指导的情况下，往往会有一种非常积极和有利于社交的体验。但使用迷幻药物时，如果经历所谓的"不良旅行"，有时可能会有些可怕的体验。我自己在使用LSD以及到一定程度上的裸盖菇素时就有过这样的经历。但是，完全没有反应的可能性几乎是不存在的，百万中的百万例都不会出现这种情况。
I mean just just neurophysiologically something's going to happen with the requisite dose of uh of one of these drugs and if if that thing that happens is is psychologically at all normative and you know pleasant and interesting and valuable which it is so much of the time and certainly under the appropriate you know set and setting and and guidance um it can be you know a lot of the time for you know virtually everybody again there are caveats if you if you're prone if you think you have you know a perclivity for schizophrenia or you know bipolar disorder this is almost certainly not for you you know and anyone doing a the the the studies at like Johns Hopkins for for um the therapeutic effects of of any of these drugs they're they're ruling out people with you know first degree relatives with with any of these clinical conditions.
我的意思是，从神经生理学的角度来看，当摄入足够剂量的某种药物时，人体会发生一些变化。如果这种变化从心理上来说是正常的、愉快的、有趣且有价值的，这种情况在合适的环境和指导下经常能实现。对几乎所有人来说，大部分时间都是这样。不过，也需要注意，如果你倾向于患有精神分裂症或双相情感障碍，这些药物几乎肯定不适合你。在像约翰·霍普金斯大学这样的机构进行药物治疗效果研究时，他们会排除那些有一级亲属患有这些临床疾病的人。
But so for somebody like me at 18 who didn't know that this was an area of of not only interest but would it be that you know the the center of gravity for the rest of his life if only he could pay attention clearly enough to see that it could be right um I was someone who very likely again I don't know I don't have the counterfactual in hand I don't know what would have happened if if someone had you know forced me to meditate for an hour at that point but I know I wasn't interested in it until I took MDMA I know I wasn't having these kinds of experiences spontaneously that get that showed me that there was an inner landscape that was worth exploring um I was a very hard headed skeptic who was very interested in lots of things but there was no alternative to me just thinking more about those things right I mean the idea that there's some other way of grasping cognitively at the interesting parts of the world beyond thinking about the world right I just I that just wouldn't have computed for me at all right.
对于像我这样18岁时的人来说，我并不知道这不仅是一个让我感兴趣的领域，而且还可能成为决定我余生活重心的地方——只要我能够足够专注地发现这一点。我是一个非常可能会错过机会的人，我不知道若是当时有人强迫我花一小时冥想会怎样，但我知道在服用MDMA之前我对这些事情没有兴趣。我没有自发地经历那些让我看到有内心世界值得探索的体验。当时，我是一个头脑非常顽固的怀疑论者，虽然对许多事情都感兴趣，但在我看来，没有什么其他方式可以认知到世界有趣的部分，除了对它们更加思考。认为有其他方法可以认知世界，这一想法当时对我来说是无法理解的。
And if you had so I just I and I literally have I had no one ever gave me a book to read or and I have had I don't know if you the noun meditation very likely meant absolutely nothing to me before before I took my first dose of in this case it was MDMA so what the drug experience did for me is it just proved I mean so the one of the limitations of a drug is that you know obviously no matter how good the experience the drug wears off and then you're back to you more in more or less your usual form and now you have a memory of the experience and it can be a fairly dim memory.
如果要翻译成中文，并让它易于理解，可以这样表达：
以前我从来没有人给我书看，我对“冥想”这个词几乎一无所知，然后我第一次尝试的是 MDMA。在这种药物体验中，我发现了它的一个局限性：无论体验多好，药效总会消退，之后你会恢复到平时的状态，只留下对体验的记忆，而这个记忆可能也不太清晰。
I mean some of these experiences are so discontinuous with normal waking consciousness that it can be like trying to remember a dream you know that just disappear that degrades you know of the course of seconds and then it could have been the most intense dream you've ever had and for whatever reason you can barely get a purchase on you know what it was about and you know there's some psychedelic experiences that are now this to that but for most people most of the time there's a residue of this experience and with something like MDMA they can be quite a quite vivid where you recognize okay there there was a way of being that is quite different than what I'm tending to access by default and it is different in in ways that are just uh you know obviously better and and psychologically more healthy.
我的意思是，有些经历与正常的清醒意识非常不同，就像试图记住一个梦一样，这些梦可能会在几秒钟内迅速消失，即使它们可能是你经历过的最强烈的梦，但由于某些原因，你几乎无法想起它的内容。有些迷幻体验也是如此，但对大多数人来说，大多数时候，这些经历还是会留下些许印记。以 MDMA（摇头丸）为例，这种体验可能会非常生动，使你意识到，这种存在方式与我习惯的默认状态截然不同，并且它在某些方面显然更好、更健康。
I mean it's possible to be healthy psychologically in a way that I I never imagined right and that then when you then when you link it up to the traditional literature around any of this stuff again so much of it is shot through with with superstition and other worldliness of of religion and that you know as you know and I think your listeners probably know I've spent a lot of time criticizing all that but there is a baby in the bath water to all of that right so I guess it's not that that somebody like Jesus or the Buddha or any of the matriarchs and patriarchs of the world's religions it's not that they are we're all conscious frauds or you know temporal lobe epileptics or I would like there's like there's a there's a pathological lens that you can put on top of all that but once you have one of these experiences on psychedelics or on a drug like MDMA you know that there's a there there you know that unconditional love is is a possibility right you know that that uh feeling truly one with nature right.
这段文字可以翻译成中文如下：
我是说，以一种我从未想象过的方式在心理上保持健康是可能的。当你将这与传统文献中的相关内容联系起来时，你会发现很多内容充满了迷信和宗教的超自然色彩。而我，正如你和你的听众们可能知道的，我花了很多时间批评这些东西，但我想说的是，在所有这些之中还是有一些值得保留的内核的。所以，我并不是说耶稣、佛陀或世界各大宗教的先祖们都是有意的欺诈者或者说是因为颞叶癫痫之类的健康问题而信奉某些信仰。你可以从某种病理学的角度去理解这些现象，但一旦你通过使用迷幻剂或类似 MDMA 的药物体验到某些经历，你就会知道那里确实有东西存在。你会了解到无条件的爱是可能的，你会意识到真正与自然融为一体的感觉。
I mean just so one with nature that you're you could spend 10 hours in front of a tree and find that to be the most rewarding experience of your of your life right that's a possible state of consciousness now it may it may not be the state of consciousness you want all the time you know you don't want to be the crazy guy by the tree you know who can't have a conversation about anything else but uh once you have one of these experiences you recognize okay there's there's some reason why I'm not having the beatific vision right now and I can't even figure out how to aim my attention so as to have anything like it and that's a problem right because it's it's available right and it's it's the best you know it is among the best things that's as ever happened to me right and now I can just only dimly remember what that was like.
我指的是，与自然融为一体到一种程度，你可以在一棵树前待上10个小时，并且觉得那是你人生中最有意义的体验。这是一种可能的意识状态。当然，这种意识状态可能并不是你一直想要的状态，你也不希望自己变成一个只会在树旁聊这件事的"怪人"。但是，一旦你有过这样的体验，你就会意识到，哦，我现在之所以没有这种幸福的视觉体验，是因为我甚至不知道该如何集中注意力去重新获得这种体验。这是个问题，因为这种体验其实是可以获得的，而且这是我经历过的最美好的事情之一。而现在，我只能依稀记得那种感觉。
Um so how do I get back there on some level and that's so that invites again a logic of changes a logic of seeking changes in the contents of consciousness which sets someone up for this this um protracted or seemingly protracted and and you know fairly frustrating search to you know game their nervous system so as to have those kinds of experiences more and more um and again it's not that that's in principle fruitless but it is from the point of view of the kind of the core insight of you know the core wisdom of you know what I would take from a tradition like Buddhism which is not you know it's not the only tradition that has given voice to this but it's I would argue it's given voice to it the most in the most articulate way um again leaving aside any of the superstition and and other worldliness and miracles that you know we don't have to talk about at the moment and you certainly don't need to endorse in order to be interested in this stuff.
好的，那么我该如何在某种程度上回到那里呢？这种思考方式再次引出了一个改变的逻辑，一种在意识内容中寻找变化的逻辑。这样的人就会陷入一种漫长甚至看似漫长且颇为令人沮丧的探索，试图调整他们的神经系统，以便越来越多地获得那种体验。当然，从原则上来说，这种做法并非毫无结果，但从我认为如佛教这样的传统中汲取的核心智慧来看，情况有些不同。尽管有其他传统也表达过类似的观点，但我认为佛教以最清晰的方式表达了这一点。当然，这里不涉及任何迷信、超自然现象或奇迹的内容，你也不需要接受这些说法才能对这些思想产生兴趣。
Um and so that's the the bifurcation between the all of the utility of psychedelics and what I'm talking about uh under the rubric of meditation is at this point of okay once you realize there's a there there what do you do and what's the logic by which you're led to do it and it's possible with like if if your only framework is the good experiences the good feels you had on on a on a whatever drug it was and a further discussion of of like what that path of changes you know can look like and that can come in a religious context it can come in just a purely psychedelic context or you know some combination of the two um I think you can be misled to you can just be you can be misled to just seek lots of peak experiences you're just trying to string together a lot of peak experiences hoping they're going to change you every one of which by by definition is going to be impermanent right I mean it's it's first it wasn't there then it's there and then it's no longer there and then you've got a memory of it.
嗯，所以这就是在迷幻药的实用性和我所谈论的冥想之间的区别。当你意识到有一个“那里”的时候，你该怎么做？是什么逻辑引导你去做？如果你的唯一框架是你在某种药物上获得的美好体验和感觉，并且进一步讨论这种改变的路径可能是怎样的，那么这些可以出现在一个宗教背景下，也可以单纯是一个迷幻体验的背景下，或者两者的一种结合，我认为这样可能让你误入歧途，只是不断追求高峰体验，希望它们能够改变你。然而，每一次高峰体验都是暂时的，最初它不存在，然后它出现，接着又消失，留给你的只有对它的记忆。
Right the what I think it's what everyone really wants whether they know it or not and they're right to want is a type of freedom that is compatible with even ordinary states of consciousness which which can ride along with them into extraordinary states of consciousness I mean so what I hadn't done psychedelics for 25 years because I mean again they were super useful for me in the beginning then I discovered meditation on the basis of those experiences got really into meditation and realized okay this is a much more this really is the you know conceptually this makes much more sense to me this is delivering the goods you know in terms my experience there's no need to keep having these you know seeking these peak experiences with with drugs but it had been you know 25 years since I had done that and there was this resurgence in research on psychedelics and I was being asked about psychedelics and I was talking about their utility for me but again these were distant memories.
我所认为的，以及我觉得每个人在潜意识中都渴望的，不论他们是否意识到，就是一种兼容于普通意识状态的自由。这种自由可以伴随我们进入非凡的意识状态。我有25年没接触迷幻药物，因为起初这些药物对我非常有帮助，但后来我通过这些经验发现了冥想，并深入其中。我意识到冥想在概念上对我更有意义，也确实带来了我想要的体验。因此，我不再觉得有必要通过药物去追求那些巅峰体验。25年过去了，迷幻药物的研究重新兴起，我也被问及关于这些药物的问题，尽管对我来说，那些都是遥远的回忆。
And so I and there was also one type of psychedelic experience I was I was aware that I had never had I had never done a high dose of mushrooms blindfolded you know every mushroom trip I'd ever had I'd been out in nature and interacting with you know you know it's just been a very transformed sensory experience of the world and of other people but I'd never done it alone blindfolded just purely you know inwardly directed and at a high dosage I'd done high doses of LSD but but not mushrooms so I did that you know and it was very useful and I spoke about it on my podcast and it's actually there's I think if you search Sam Harris mushroom trip on YouTube you get the the 19 minute version of that my describing that trip it was incredibly useful and but it was what was doubly useful was my mindfulness training in the context of that explosion of the synesthesia.
我意识到自己从未进行过一种特定的迷幻体验——就是在高剂量服用蘑菇时用眼罩遮住眼睛。之前每次服用蘑菇时，我都是在自然环境中，与周围的世界和他人互动，以一种非常变革性的方式体验感官世界。而这次我决定高剂量服用蘑菇，独自一人，戴上眼罩，完全专注于内心深处。我在过去曾尝试过高剂量的LSD，但从未在蘑菇方面有过这种体验。最后，我试了一次，发现它非常有帮助。我在自己的播客中谈到了这次经历，并且如果你在YouTube上搜索“Sam Harris mushroom trip”，可以找到一个19分钟的影片，其中我详细描述了这次旅行的经历。这次体验极其有益，而尤其对我有帮助的是，在那种感官融合爆发的情境中，我的正念训练发挥了双重作用。
I mean it was it was such an overwhelmingly strong experience and there were so many moments where it could have gone one way or the other based on my sense of just okay I'm going to try to resist this you know it was like it was it was it was it was in truth irresistible because it was just so much but there were moments where I was aware of okay this is like letting go of self you in this context is is the thing that is going to you know turn to make the difference between heaven and hell here you know and because there's there are experiences that are so extreme that you can't even tell if it's agony or ecstasy it's just it's just everything has turned up to 11 right and the difference between the two is like you know the tipping point it's just it's really is kind of a high wire act in some sense you know you can just fall to one side or the other and yeah so what I think people want is they certainly want to be able to extract from the psychedelic experience wisdom that is applicable to ordinary states of consciousness.
我经历了一次极其强烈的体验，在其中的很多时刻，我感觉自己可以选择不同的方向。有时候，我试图去抵抗这种感受，但事实上，这种体验是不可抗拒的，因为它实在是太强烈了。有些时候，我意识到，这种情境下需要放下自我，才可能决定结果是如天堂般美好，还是如地狱般痛苦。有些体验极端到让人无法分辨是痛苦还是狂喜，只觉得一切的感受都被提高到极点。它们之间的区别就像在一根绷紧的钢丝上行走，可能稍不留神就会倒向一边。因此，人们想要从迷幻体验中汲取那些能够应用于普通意识状态的智慧。
It's like what is the thing you can realize in a moment of having a conversation with your child that isn't distracting you from that relationship it's not a memory of when the world dissolved or you know when you were indistinguishable from the sky but it's just a way of way of being having free attention and unconditional love in this you know totally ordinary and potentially chaotic human experience you know which can be psychologically fraught and you can meet you know iterations of yourself that you don't like that are that are not equipping you to be the best possible person in that relationship and what we want to do is cut through all of that and actually you know be in love with our lives and with the people in our lives more and more of the time yeah and that's there's I'm not saying that's the psyche you know that repeated psychedelic journeys aren't can't be integral to that project but but you know that it the project can't be being high all the time right so whatever is extractable from that the the the occasional you know psychedelic trip has got to be mapable into ordinary waking consciousness.
这段话讨论的是在与孩子交谈中能瞬间意识到什么，而不让这些对话分散对这段关系的注意力。这并不是对过去记忆的回忆，比如世界的消解或与天空融为一体，而是一种存在的方式，即拥有自由的关注和无条件的爱。在这个极其普通且可能混乱的人类经验中，心理上可能充满挑战，你可能会遇见自己不喜欢的那部分，这部分并不帮你成为在那段关系中尽可能好的人。我们希望能够穿越一切障碍，实际上更多地热爱我们的生活和生活中的人。我并不是说重复的迷幻之旅不能在这项目中起到重要作用，但项目的重点不能是一直保持在兴奋状态。因此，无论从偶尔的迷幻体验中得到什么启发，都必须以某种方式融入到平常清醒的意识中。
And the point of the real point of contact does kind of run through this you know what I've been calling the illusion of the self and again it is that part is discoverable without any changes in contents right so you don't have to suddenly feel the energy of your body be rush out and be continuous with the you know the ocean of energy that is not your body right like that's an experience that's there to be had right me it's there's no doubt but this the truth is just looking at this cup is just as formless and as mysterious as that right when it's seen in the right way and that's and that's that's what you know meditation encourages you know want to recognize why share the experience that MDMA significantly altered my perception of what's possible in terms of an emotional stance towards self and others yeah including animals right something that runs very deep for me and that I had been kind of actively suppressing in anticipation of having put my dog down but also I you know I'm not I don't know how to frame it except to say you know my lab did animal research for years and I was always very conflicted about it.
这种真实接触点的核心其实与我一直称为“自我幻象”的概念有关。关键在于，你可以在不改变内容的情况下发现这一部分。也就是说，你并不需要突然感受到你身体的能量扩散出去并与某种"能量海洋"连为一体。这种体验确实存在，但事实上，只需以正确的方式看待，你面前的这个杯子就能够展现同样无形和神秘的真相。而这正是冥想所鼓励的：去认识到这一点。
我想分享的经验是，MDMA显著改变了我对自我与他人之间情感关系可能性的理解，包括与动物的关系。这对我来说是非常深刻的东西，尤其是在我一直在压抑这样的情感，因为预计要送我的狗走。但是，我不太知道如何表述，只能说，我的实验室多年从事动物研究，而在这过程中我总是感到非常矛盾。
Yeah because I love animals and yet I wanted to understand the brain and we need to work on animal brains and we rodents or yeah I'll be very direct about this my lab I've worked on many species I've worked on um mice and rats I've worked on um admittedly I've worked on I've done some cat experiments I've worked on a large non-human primates including including the cacks I no longer work on any of those species I've worked on cuddlefish saffelopods a discussion for another time brilliant little creatures maybe maybe as smart as us or who knows um maybe smarter and now I work on humans because I couldn't reconcile the challenge inside me which was my love of animals and working on them I just couldn't do it any longer yeah and an MDMA didn't set that transition um that transition actually had been set a lot earlier you know it was something I really grappled with it didn't keep me up at night but it was always in the back of my mind right in any event I hope what we discovered was um was worthwhile but this is a that's a bigger debate um and I have strong feelings about this and maybe it's a topic for another podcast.
当然是因为我爱动物，但我也想了解大脑，我们需要研究动物的大脑，所以我们会研究啮齿动物。我直接说吧，我的实验室研究过很多物种，包括老鼠、大鼠，也的确进行过一些猫的实验，还研究过大型非人类灵长类动物，比如猕猴。不过我现在不再研究这些物种了。我之前也研究过墨斗鱼和其他头足类动物，它们非常奇妙，也许和我们一样聪明，谁知道呢，也许更聪明。现在我专注于人类，因为我无法调和内心对动物的热爱和对它们进行研究的矛盾，所以不再继续下去了。这种转变其实在很早之前就发生了，不是因为某个具体的事件或药物引起的。虽然我没有因此彻夜失眠，但这个问题一直萦绕在我心头。无论如何，我希望我们的发现有价值，不过这是一个更大的讨论。我对此有很强烈的感受，也许可以在另一个播客中深入探讨这个话题。
Um but I'm very happy that now I work on humans and they can tell me if they want to be part of the experiment or not and I trust them and I trust their answers I think that MDMA in its role as an empathogen I think really did set an understanding of what's real and true so think truths like that become um they don't I felt that they didn't hit me square in the face I just could the feeling behind the conflict made itself evident and what to do about it made itself evident so I suppose MDMA did uh I did assist the transition to purely human research as opposed to.
嗯，不过我很高兴现在我是在与人类一起工作，他们可以告诉我是否愿意参与实验，我信任他们，并且信任他们的回答。我认为MDMA作为一种"同理药物"在帮助理解真实和真相方面确实发挥了作用。我感到，那些真相并不像迎面而来的打击，而是让我清楚地感受到冲突背后的情感以及如何应对。所以，我觉得MDMA在从其他研究转向纯人类研究的过程中确实发挥了作用。
Um animal research um the other thing that I noticed it did is um it made it not scary to confront things that were scary to confront in my conscious life and I could think about things in my conscious life but it made you know it brought them close in a way that I could get closer and closer to the flame and then gain some understanding I've still um uh amazed at how answers arrive both during the session and then the weeks and months that follow if one puts the attention to it.
在动物研究方面，我注意到它的另一个作用是减少了在日常生活中面对那些让人害怕的事情时的恐惧。它让我能够在脑海中思考这些事情，并以一种能够逐渐接近、接触的方式去理解它们。我仍然对在研究过程中以及随后的几周和几个月里如何得出答案感到惊讶，只要你专注于这些问题。
I think that's why it's important to have a guide of some sort or to have some some pseudo structure because otherwise you can one can get attached to the sounds in the room and just and there's probably meaning there but I wanted to do some deeper work right I have not had experience with psilocybin at least not since my youth and I don't recommend young people do it I regret doing LSD and psilocybin as a young person I don't say that for politically correct reasons or liability reasons I just think my mind was not developed and um but I'm intrigued by something.
我认为这就是为什么重要要有某种向导或结构的原因，否则人很容易被房间里的声音吸引住，虽然其中可能有意义，但我想做更深入的工作。我自青年时期以来没有接触过幻觉蘑菇，我不建议年轻人尝试。我后悔年轻时使用了LSD和幻觉蘑菇，这不是出于政治正确或责任方面的考虑，而是因为我觉得当时我的心智还不够成熟。不过，我对某些东西非常感兴趣。
So here's the question how is it that psilocybin in particular and hydo psilocybin and the ego dissolution that people talk about on psilocybin how do you think that um lines up with some of the experiences that um you've been describing for a adequate meditation practice because that's something that I did not experience on MDMA in fact if anything I I experienced for the first time what um really feeling like a isolated container was and the difference in how empathy and being bounded having in other words good boundaries and empathy could be symbiotic.
所以问题是，为什么特别是迷幻药素和水迷幻药素以及人们谈论的在迷幻药素下体验到的自我消解，这些现象与您描述的充分冥想练习的体验有什么联系？因为在使用MDMA时，我没有经历过这样的体验。实际上，如果说有什么不同的话，那就是我第一次体验到真正感觉自己像一个孤立的容器，以及在有良好界限但同时也能同理他人时，这两者之间如何可以共存。
I experienced that for the first time there and I do think that there is learning inside of these states that translates into everyday life when one is not on these states and the last thing I'll say is no I don't feel the um the impulse to go and do 20 more MDMA sessions I think that the three is part of this study um were uh very effective for me and you know as they say if you hear the calling again you might do it but I'm very curious about psilocybin in particular and this notion of ego dissolution because we've been talking about the self well so so there are different ways in which the sense of self can be eroded or expanded or there's lots of experiences that can still have a kind of center to them but be you know very novel and and transformational.
我第一次在那里体验到这种状态，我确实认为这些状态中的学习可以转化为日常生活中的智慧，即使在没有这些状态时也是如此。最后，我想说的是，我并不觉得有冲动想再进行20次MDMA疗程。我觉得这三个疗程作为这项研究的一部分对我非常有效。就像他们说的，如果再次感受到召唤，也许会再尝试，但我对裸盖菇素特别感兴趣，以及与自我消融有关的概念。因为我们一直在谈论“自我”，所以“自我”感可以通过不同的方式被削弱或扩展，有很多体验仍能保留某种中心感，但却可以非常新颖和具有变革性。
Um and one can reify those as a kind of goal state right and it's sort of the there's a concept in in Buddhism that I think is useful it doesn't translate well to English or it can set up um kind of uh false associations in English that that are unfortunate but so there's a concept of emptiness in Buddhism which um sounds again kind of gray and disparate in in English but it's um uh what it the what it's it's sort of a cognate terms are are things like unconditioned unconstrained open centralists right so it's um there's a uh and that is so when I'm talking about non duality when I'm talking about the the loss of a sense of subject and then what's left in Buddhism that they would often describe what's left as emptiness but it emptiness is not a something it's not a it's and it's and it's importantly it's not the same thing as unity right so it's not it's not a oneness right because it's it's what's what's let when the center drops out of experience it's not like you are suddenly merged with the cup right.
嗯，可以将这理解为一种目标状态，对吧？在佛教中有一个概念，我认为很有用，但翻译到英语时并不太好，因为可能会在英语中引发一些不太好的联想。佛教中的这个概念是“空”，在英语中听起来可能有些灰暗和模糊，但实际上它类似于“无条件的”、“不受束缚的”、“开放的”、“没有中心”的意思。
当我谈论非二元性时，当我谈论失去主体感时，佛教通常会描述所剩下的为“空”。但这里的“空”并不是一个物体，它更重要的是，它也不同于统一性。它不是一种合一，因为当你体验的中心消失后，并不是说你与茶杯融为一体。
It's but now granted that you know this is where psilocybin or another psychedelics can give a false impression of I think what the goal is you can have kind seeming merging experience you can have unity experiences on psychedelics which can be quite powerful especially with nature with other people and with nature where you can just feel like you know the the the the energy of your body becomes incredibly vivid and powerful it's just like like you're just you know everything is just you know buzzing with you know life energy and then when you you know touch another person's hand or you touch a tree there can be this sort of continuity of energy which can be this overwhelming experience and again this is a just a 20 megaton change in the contents of consciousness right this like this is a non-ordinary state of consciousness but like this is a give some indication of what of how this happens.
现在请注意，这里是关于迷幻药（例如赛洛西宾）可能带来的错觉的讨论。你可能会在使用这些药物时经历一种特别强烈的合一体验，这种体验可能特别强烈，尤其是在大自然中或与其他人相处的时候。你可能会感到自己的身体能量极其生动和强大，仿佛一切都充满了生命的能量。当你触碰到另一个人的手或者一棵树时，会感到能量的连贯性，这可能是个特别强烈的感受。这是一种意识内容发生巨大变化的状态，一种非常不同寻常的意识状态。但这些体验可以给我们一些提示，了解这种现象是如何发生的。
I when I back in the day when I was in my 20s and I was experimenting with with this was LSD but some friends and I decided we had this brilliant idea we would we would camp above mere woods and then take some LSD a dawn and then walk down you know like a mile I think from the campsite into the into the actual proper grove of trees and you know commune with a giant red woods the tallest trees on earth and so we dropped the acid a dawn and we start walking but the acid came on you know almost immediately and we didn't get I mean we got nowhere near the woods and we got stopped by a tree that was just like an ordinary you know 20 foot oak tree like the most boring tree in the world and that tree absorbed like the next six hours of our of our conscious attention because it was just you know it was the tree of life I mean it was just like could it could be no better tree so these are we're talking about non-ordinary states of consciousness wherein a emerging with life and with with the world is possible and that is a so I'm not I'm not saying that kind of experience isn't possible but there's a sort of expanded self reification it is it is a kind of ego dissolution but there's a there's a kind of egoity that sort of goes along for the ride as well or can go along for the ride.
在我二十多岁的时候，我曾尝试过LSD。我和几个朋友有一个自认为很棒的主意：我们决定在穆尔森林上方露营，然后在黎明时分服用LSD，再步行大约一英里到真正的树林里，与这些地球上最高大的红杉交流。所以，我们在黎明时分摄入LSD并开始步行，但药效几乎是立刻显现出来的，我们根本没有走到森林里，而是在一棵平常的20英尺高的橡树前停了下来。这棵看似无趣的树竟然吸引了我们大约六小时的注意力，因为它成了生命之树，仿佛没有比这更好的树了。
我们在谈论的是一种非普通的意识状态，让人与生命和世界融为一体。我并不是说这样的体验不可能，但这中间有一种自我扩展的现象，虽然它是一种自我消解，但也有可能有某种形式的自我伴随着整个过程。
And the real insight into emptiness the real sort of centralist you know center of the bullseye is a recognition that that in some ways equalizes all experiences and again it's it's it's just as available now in the this ordinary you know podcasting experience as it is when you're merging hands on with an oak tree and you know on you know 400 micrograms of acid and this is you know the this is the whole universe and so it's it's the it's the equality of those two experiences that this concept of emptiness captures which a concept of oneness doesn't quite capture because oneness is really this this peak experience of being dragged out of your you know your somethingness into a much bigger somethingness.
对空性的真正领悟，就像射箭命中靶心那样，让人认识到在某种程度上所有体验都是平等的。不论是在当下这种普通的播客体验中，还是在服用400微克LSD时与橡树亲密接触时，这种认识都是随时可得的。这个概念传达的是两种体验的平等性，体现了空性的本质，而这并不是合一的概念所能完全捕捉到的。合一更多是一种被从某种状态拖拽到一个更大状态的巅峰体验。
Right emptiness is just no center right and then everything is in its own place right there's still sites and sounds and sensations and thoughts and feelings but there's just there's no there's no center and there's no clinging to anything there's no clinging to identity there's no clinging to the good stuff there's no there's no resistance to the bad stuff there's no this is so pleasant and unpleasant get sort of strangely equalized and there's this very it's it's very expansive and and most importantly it doesn't block anything so yeah if for whatever reason if your nervous system is set up to have the oh my god i'm now merging with the tree experience that's that's possible from the state of no center right and and and on my you know that my reason now not so reason three years ago is right before covid but my last you know big psychedelic experience you know there was i was very much experiencing that whereas you know insofar as i you know you know at the peak there was no need to remember any of any of any of this stuff but you know insofar as i could experiment with is this really different from anything else you know there is a kind of equalizing to the the emptiness recognition even in the in the presence of a completely transformed neurophysiology and and so that's um again there's there's a point of contact i mean the the the real point of contact between psychedelics and meditation for me is but for my experiences on psychedelics there's i don't think there's just no way i would have had the free attention to be interested in in the in the project at all.
真正的空是一种没有中心的状态，每个事物都处在它自己的位置。依然存在各种景象、声音、感受、思维和情感，但没有一个中心点，也没有对任何东西的执着。没有对身份的执着，没有对好的事物的执着，也没有对坏的事物的抵触。愉快和不愉快的感觉在这种状态下被奇妙地平衡了，这种状态非常宽广，而且最重要的是，它不会阻挡任何东西。
如果你的神经系统能够体验到“哇哦，我现在和树合二为一”的感受，那在这种无中心的状态下这是有可能的。就我而言，在三年前，也就是新冠疫情开始前，我经历了一次重要的致幻体验。在那次体验中，我感受到自己在巅峰状态下几乎不需要记住任何事物。而且在当时的状态下，我可以尝试去感受这种体验是否与其他任何东西不同，即使在神经生理完全改变的情况下，也能认识到一种对空性的认同。这就是我在迷幻药和冥想之间找到的一个共通点。如果没有我在致幻状态下的体验，我想我可能根本不会有任何兴趣投入到这个项目中。
And there are other aspects of the project it's not just having this insight into selflessness it's it's all of the ethical ramifications of that it's just like what kind of person do you want to be what are your values what's what what is a good life altogether when you are talking about relationships and you know political engagement and the changes you can make in the world or not make or it's just you know what kind of person do you want to be there's there's there's a much larger consideration and i mean as you discovered you know an experience on mdma can really both both expand your model of what is possible and what is desirable what is normative i mean just what kind of you know what kind of self do you want to be in the world and it can also help you cut through things that are inhibiting you you're actualizing any of those possibilities in ordinary waking consciousness i've certainly found that to be the case.
这个项目还有其他方面，不仅仅是对无私的洞察力。它涉及到所有这些相关的伦理影响，比如你想成为什么样的人，你的价值观是什么，什么是美好的人生。当你谈论人际关系、政治参与，以及你能或不能在世界上做出的改变时，你会思考你想成为什么样的人。这其实是一个更大的考虑范围。正如你发现的，体验 MDMA 可以扩展你对可能性和理想、规范的认知，它帮助你思考你在这个世界上想成为什么样的人。它还能帮助你打破那些在清醒状态下阻碍你实现这些可能性的障碍。我个人也确实有这样的体验。
I mean you raise a really important point which is that once these learnings take place these understanding take place inside of psychedelic journeys and i do believe they translate to neuroplasticity i do want to highlight the point for people oftentimes people say you know this mushroom or this psychedelic it opens plasticity but of course plasticity has to be directed some place plasticity is just a process like like walking or anything else underlying neural process and i i think it's impossible for me to understand what compartments of my life have been impacted by these three mdma sessions but i in some ways i wonder whether or not not just the transition away from animal research but also a deeper realization of the love for learning and sharing information.
我认为你提到了一个非常重要的观点，那就是在迷幻药物旅行中获得的这些学习和理解，会转化为神经可塑性。我确实想强调一点，很多人常说这种蘑菇或迷幻药物能够开启神经可塑性，但实际上，神经可塑性需要有一个明确的方向，它只是一种过程，就像走路一样，是需要有基础的神经过程。我很难明确地知道我的生活哪些方面受到了这三次MDMA经历的影响，但在某种程度上，我怀疑这不仅仅是从动物研究转向其他方向的转变，还可能是一种对学习和分享信息的深入热爱。
You know i won't go so far as to say this podcast is happening because of that particular session but these things they play out into multiple domains of the self and i do think that the key features that feel most important to me to mention are that it really identified true loves things that i truly love and made me less um less cautious about feeling how intense those loves really are and then also lower the inhibition point of exploring like well what that what would that mean right you know and the one of the reasons i bring this up and why i think it's so important that you mentioned you know some issues around politics and ethics and many things have displayed out from your exploration of psychedelic meditation neuroscience philosophy you know all the things that are you and of course that's only a subset is that so much of what i hear and see so much of what i hear and see in the kind of self-help space contradicts itself and leads back to the the origin without.
你知道，我不会说这个播客的出现完全是因为那次特定的会议，但这些事情的影响确实扩展到了自我的多个领域。我认为我最需要提到的关键点是，它真正帮助我识别了我真正热爱的事物，并让我在感受这些强烈热爱时变得不那么谨慎。此外，它降低了我对探索这些热爱意味着什么的顾虑。我提到这一点的原因之一，以及我认为你提到一些与政治和伦理相关的问题很重要的原因，是因为从你的对迷幻冥想、神经科学、哲学等的探索中，很多事情都展现出来。当然，这只是一个子集，我所听到和看到的很多自助领域的信息常常自相矛盾，并且最终又回到了原点。
A lot of progress and and for instance we hear you know absence makes the heart grow fonder but then out of sight out of mind you hear about radical acceptance but then what if it's radical acceptance of non-acceptance right i mean there are some experiences in people for which i radically accept the fact i want nothing to do with them yeah and does that some am i supposed to transcend that so these are the questions i think that keep a lot of people from exploring things like meditation because they feel like well is the idea to just be okay with everything is radical acceptance just like well just you know bulldoze me with with things even if they're you know and my goal is to somehow surpass the idea that they're harmful and i don't think that's actually the way any of this stuff is supposed to work although i don't claim to be the authority on it either i you know i think notions of radical acceptance and radical honesty and and any number of different sayings that one can find out there are really the the most salient beacons and guides that most people have in order to try and navigate tough areas in their life including the relationship to self but others and political orientations and so i feel like almost all those things can be used to anchor down in a stance that may or may not be informed or to open up to ideas.
在这段文字中，作者提出了一些思考，涉及到观点的矛盾和自我发展的问题。比如，我们常听说“距离使心灵更加亲密”，但也有“眼不见，心不烦”的说法。同样，有人提倡“彻底接受”，但如果是对“不接受”的彻底接受呢？作者举例说，他对于某些人和事能够非常坦然地接受自己不想与他们有任何关系，难道这也需要超越吗？
这些问题让很多人不太愿意探索诸如冥想之类的实践，因为他们担心是否意味着要对一切都接受，即使那些事有害，且目标是要超越这种有害的想法。然而作者认为，这并不是这些理念的真正目的。尽管他不自称是权威，但他觉得彻底接受和诚实，以及其他类似的说法，是帮助人们驾驭生活困境的重要指引标志，包括对自我、他人以及政治取向的关系。
作者觉得，这些理念几乎都可以用来坚定某个立场，而这个立场可能已经形成固定看法，也可以帮助人们开放思维，接纳各种不同的想法。
And so i think the none of this can really be solved in a single practice it sounds like but it does seem to me based on what you've told us today is that only through a deep understanding of the self as it really is as opposed to the solution that you framed up could we actually arrive at some answers about like what's actually right for each and every one of us yeah i mean there's one generic answer that i think can be extracted both from psychedelic psychedelics and from meditation and just from just thinking more clearly about the nature of of our lives and it's it's to become more process oriented and to and to continue be more and more sensitive to the the marrilla the marrage like character of of achieving our goals right now i'm not i'm not against achieving goals i have a lot of goals i've you know i'm you know i'm very busy there are lots of things i want to get done and and i you know i i'm a satisfied as anyone to finish a project and but if you look at the time course of all of that you know fulfillment and you you just there are a few lessons that everyone i think has to draw one is most of your life is spent in the process.
我认为，这些问题不能通过单一的实践来解决。然而，基于你今天告诉我们的内容，只有通过深入了解真实的自我，而不是依赖于你所设想的解决方案，我们才能找到适合每个人的答案。其中有一个普遍的结论可以从迷幻药、冥想以及对生活本质的清晰思考中得出，那就是我们应该更加关注过程，并对实现目标过程中那种像海市蜃楼般的特性更加敏感。我并不是反对设立目标。我个人也有很多目标，我很忙，有很多事情想要完成。我和任何人一样，在完成一个项目时会感到满足。然而，如果你审视整个过程，真的会有一些每个人都需要认识到的教训，其中之一就是我们大部分的生活都是在过程中度过的。
Right like the cult like the moment at which the goal is you know fully conquered that is just i mean that has a you know it's a tiny duration and it has a very short half life and you're it the moment you arrive at it it begins to receive because in the meantime you have all these other goals that have appeared on the horizon you've got people asking what you're going to do next and you in some sense if you're if you're focused on goals you really you can never arrive right and i think what we're what we're looking we're all looking for in life you know whether we're ever thinking about taking psychedelics or or practicing something like meditation we're looking for good enough reasons to let our attention fully rest in the present right now like it's hope i mean that that is the logic of success like the sense like i've got all these things i want to do if i could just get rich enough or fit enough or you know dial in my sleep well enough or you know improve my life in all these ways get the right relationship wouldn't it be great to be married or maybe you know i want to start a family i want all of these these things why do i want these things.
就像某种仪式，当目标完全实现的那一刻，它只是一瞬间，持续时间极短。当你到达这个点时，它就开始消退，因为与此同时，你会有其他新的目标出现。人们会问你接下来要做什么，如果你过于专注于目标，就永远无法真正到达终点。
我认为我们在生活中寻找的，无论是考虑使用迷幻药物还是进行冥想，都是寻找足够好的理由让我们的注意力完全停留在当下。这就是所谓的成功逻辑：我有这么多想要完成的事情。如果我能变得够富有、身体够健康、睡眠够充足，或以各种方式改善我的生活，比如拥有一段合适的婚姻，或许结婚也不错，也许我想要建立家庭。我为什么想要这些呢？
Right i want these things because i'm telling myself this isn't it's not that all of those things are wonderful right i'm not i'm not discounting those relative forms of happiness or sources of happiness because it's all completely valid to it's completely bound to want those things but in the press is for one thing is absolutely clear it's possible to be miserable in the presence of all of those things right it's and you can add you can add great wealth and fame and everything on top of that it's possible it's possible to be absolutely miserable having everything anyone could seemingly want right i just have to open a newspaper to see people living out that predicament right you know fat spectacularly wealthy famous healthy successful people who could do anything they want in their in life apparently and yet they're doing this thing that is completely dysfunctional and making them needlessly miserable i won't name names but there are enough of them some people come to mind at the moment so so there is a there is a clear dissociation between having everything and happiness that's possible.
好的，我想要这些东西，因为我告诉自己，这并不是说这些东西都是美好的。我并不是在抹杀这些相对的幸福形式或幸福来源，因为想要这些东西完全是合理的。不过，重要的一点是，即使拥有所有这些东西，也可能感到不快乐。即使你再加上巨大财富和名望等一切，这种可能性依然存在。你可以拥有别人梦寐以求的一切，但仍然可能非常痛苦。我只需翻开报纸，就能看到处于这种困境中的人。那些极为富有、知名、健康、成功的人，似乎可以为所欲为，但他们却做了一些完全不合常理的事情，让自己不必要地痛苦。我不会点名，但有很多这样的人。当下就有一些人浮现在我的脑海中。因此，富有与幸福之间是明显可以分开的。
And it's also possible to have very little you know and almost nothing and to be quite happy i mean you might not have met these people but you know i have met people who have spent you know 10 years alone in a cave right you know and they come out of that cave not floridly neurotic or psychotic they come out of that cave beaming with compassion and joy and i mean it's like they've been taking mdma for 10 years essentially and they come out of the cave and that now they're going to talk about it right um so and i'm not necessarily recommending that project anyone but i'm just saying that is that is a psychological possibility so you have a double dissociation here whether you can have everything and be miserable you can have nothing and be beaming with with happiness.
这段话可以翻译成中文，简化表达为：
你可能几乎一无所知，甚至几乎一无所有，却依然感到很快乐。虽然你可能没遇到这样的人，但我确实遇到过。比如，有人独自在山洞里生活了十年，但当他们走出洞穴时，并没有表现出明显的神经质或精神错乱，反而充满了慈悲和快乐，仿佛连续十年都在体验狂喜。然而，我并不是在建议这种生活方式，只是想说，这确实是一种心理上的可能性。这说明，人可以拥有一切却仍然痛苦，也可以一无所有却充满幸福。
So what is it that we actually want in all of our seeking to arrange the props in our lives and our and our and the story to have a convincing enough story to tell about ourselves that we're doing the right thing what are what is all of that effort predicated on is predicated on this desire and this expectation that if we could get all of this stuff in the right place and not have anything terrifying to worry about right everyone we love is healthy for the moment right and we're healthy and that's we've got something to look forward to on the weekend and there's not some there's not a you know a plumbing leak in the house that we have to immediately respond to and we like our house and you know our career is going fine and there's something good to watch on Netflix and we have all of it right now can we just actually give up the war right can we can we can we fully locate our our sense of well-being in the present moment is it can we relax the impulse to brood about the past or think anxiously about the future well for long enough to discover that all of this here is enough.
那么，在我们努力安排生活中的支撑物和故事，以便为自己编织一个足够令人信服的自我说明，我们实际上想要的是什么呢？所有这些努力的基础是什么？它建立在一种渴望和期望之上，即如果我们可以将所有事情都安排妥当，不用为任何可怕的事情担忧，爱着我们的人此刻都健康，而我们自己也是，并且我们对周末充满期待，没有需要立即处理的漏水问题，我们喜欢自己的房子，事业进展顺利，Netflix 上有好看的节目，一切都井然有序。那么，我们能否放下内心的战争，能否完全将幸福感安置在当下呢？能否放松那种对过去的沉思或对未来的焦虑，长久到足以发现眼前的一切就已足够？
Right because our life our our life is we have this finite resource of I mean we absolutely have the finite resource of time but within this the finite resource the continuum of time we have the even more precious resource of free attention that is that that can find our our our our our fulfillment in the present right and because even if we're even if we're guarding our time to do the things that are most important to us we can spend all of that time regretting the past or you know anxiously expecting the future and telling it to just balancing between past and future in our thinking about ourselves and our lives and basically just dancing over the present and never making contact with it right so what we I think what we want is a circumstance where attention can be located in the present in a way that's truly fulfilling.
我们的生活中有一种有限的资源，我指的是时间——这无疑是有限的。但在这个时间的连续体内，我们还有一种更珍贵的资源，那就是自由的注意力。自由的注意力使我们能够在当下找到满足。即使我们在努力管理时间以完成对我们最重要的事情，我们也可能把所有的时间都花在对过去的悔恨上，或者焦虑地期盼未来，于是在思考自己和生活时在过去与未来之间来回踌躇，却没有真正触及到当下。所以，我认为我们想要创造的境况是，让注意力能够实实在在地落在当下，从而感到真正的满足。
And unless you have had some kind of radical insight that allows you to do that on demand you are in some sense hostage to the circumstances of your life to do that for you you're you're constantly trying to to engineer a state of the world that will propagate back on a state of self that will make the present moment good enough and what meditation does and psychedelics to some degree does this but meditation very directly does this it reverses the causality and and lets you actually change change states such that you can be fulfilled before anything happens right nothing your happiness is no longer predicated on the next good thing happening you can be in the presence of the next good or bad thing already being fulfilled and already being at peace.
除非你拥有某种激进的领悟，能够随时随地做到这一点，否则在某种意义上，你总是被生活中的环境所左右，不得不依赖外界来为你创造理想的状态。你一直在努力设计一个理想的世界状态，从而影响自身状态，让当下的时刻变得足够美好。而冥想（某种程度上也包括迷幻药）能非常直接地逆转这种因果关系，使得你能够改变自己的状态，从而在任何事情发生之前就获得满足。也就是说，你的快乐不再依赖于下一个好事的发生。即使面对未来的好事或坏事，你也能够感到满足和内心的平和。
You know I mean there's a there's a I think they're misleading nouns we can we can throw it at what is left there but it is you know you know tranquility peace freedom lack of contraction lack of conflict I mean like all of that is they can be more and more of a default and all of that is also compatible with deciding you know yeah why not get in shape why not engage this project why not you know change your career.
我觉得，我们常常使用一些误导性的名词，但你知道，我想表达的是宁静、和平、自由、没有压抑和冲突。所有这些状态都可以成为我们生活中的一种默认状态。同时，这些状态也完全兼容你的决定，比如说，为什么不让自己更健康呢？为什么不参与这个项目呢？为什么不考虑换个职业呢？
I mean it's not it's not that you need to be somebody who who accept me to to your point you can notice all of these non optimal things because no matter how much you meditate you know you're very likely very likely going to spend a lot of your time still lost in thought still identified with it and still wanting still caring about the difference between dysfunction and normativity in your life right and it's the question is what can you what can you locate when and the question it's really it's like how much can you puncture that seeking happiness project with the recognition that you're already free.
我意思是，你不需要成为一个完全接受我的人。从你的角度来看，你会注意到生活中那些不完美的事情，因为无论你冥想多少，你还是很可能会经常陷入沉思，与这些想法深深认同，并且依然会关注和在意生活中那些不理想的地方与正常之间的差异。问题在于，你能在什么时候发现些什么？关键在于，你能在多大程度上通过意识到你已经是自由的，来打破持续追求幸福的执念。
Right that I mean that that is that's what that's what meditation makes possible you can keep just a thousand times a day letting some daylight into this search space and so it's it but it is still compatible like you can I mean working out is a great frame in which to look at this because I mean working out when you when you when you really work out you know I'm thinking you know mostly I mean it's really anything but it's you know resistance training or cardio or something like your gits who. you're intentionally putting yourself in classically unpleasant circumstances physiologically I mean so if you if you were you know if you imagine what it's like to do anything to failure right we've just checked in what the on what that is like at the level of sensation I mean that is is it's basically a matter it feels like a medical emergency right I'm like that if you were having that experience for some other reason like if you woke up in the middle of the night and felt what it feels like to be deadlifting you know on your 10th rep on a set where you're gonna you know you would fail at 11 right like that is just you know that's an emergency but because you understand what you're doing in the gym and you've sought it out and like it's actually it's actually something you like doing right and you can you can get a real dopamine you know hit from from doing it.
这段话的意思是，冥想可以让我们在每天的生活中多次找到内心的平静，就像锻炼一样都是自我挑战的过程。作者比较了冥想和锻炼，指出锻炼包括阻力训练或心血管锻炼时，通常会刻意让自己处于生理上不太舒适的境地。比如，如果你做到极限，会感受到类似医疗紧急情况的感觉，这就是锻炼到失败（即做不下去）的感受。但是因为你明白自己在健身房做什么，并主动寻求这种体验，所以即使在身体上感到不适，你实际上还是喜欢这种活动，并且能从中获得多巴胺带来的愉悦感。
That what what you're doing when you're doing that is you're you're owning kind of a like you're you're actually transforming a a classically negative experience into something that's in almost intrinsically positive right certainly the net on it is positive you can do that and and when being able to do that is more and more the experience of being actually at peace even while exerting a really intense effort in one direction so you can be straining and I'm sure physiologically showing a lot of stress I mean I'm sure the you know cortisol is up and like you know you know blood pressure is up heart rate is certainly up so it's like it's as far as the body is concerned is stressed as far as the eye can see but you really can be deeply equanimous and at peace because again because of the frame around it because of the concepts attached to it because you know what you're doing you know why it's happening and you want it you so that that's an attitude you can bring into other stressful things that take effort to accomplish and so it's not it's not that you just need to be a pushover when you learn how to meditate or when you take mdma or you do any you work on yourself in any of these ways.
当你这样做的时候，你其实是将一种传统上被认为是负面的经历转化为一种几乎本质上是积极的经历。这种转变的净效果肯定是积极的。能够做到这一点会让人越来越体验到真正的内心平和，即便是在一个方向上施加非常强大的努力的时候。所以即使你在用力，你的生理状态肯定显示出很多压力，比如皮质醇水平升高、血压升高、心率增高，从身体的角度看会感觉到压力很大。然而，因为你对这件事的看法，附加在它上面的概念，以及你知道自己在做什么和为什么做，你仍然可以深深地感受到平静。这样的态度也可以应用到其他需要努力才能完成的紧张事情中。所以，这并不是说当你学会冥想、服用MDMA或者以某种方式提升自我时，你就需要成为一个容易妥协的人。
But what I think you I think you want to find is you want to find your point of rest in the midst of of any struggle. I would say that the certainly mdma but and again I have less experience with meditation and but they really I think put us ultimately in positions of what can only refer to as real strength is to make what before seem like impossible decisions or even concepts or emotional states to even think about for any period of time without deliberately distracting or avoiding in some other way and be able to lean into those with with open eyes and I think that's to me that's my definition of strength I don't know what other people consider but yeah there's there's definitely something real there in each case.
我认为你想要找到的是在任何困难中能够让自己感到安宁的那个点。我想说，MDMA（摇头丸）确实可以帮助实现这一点，尽管我对冥想的经验较少。但我认为这两者最终都能将我们置于一种我只能称之为真正力量的状态。这样的状态让我们去面对那些以前看来不可能的决策、概念或情感状态，而不再刻意分散注意力或用其他方式逃避。能够睁开双眼，勇敢地迎向它们，在我看来，这就是力量的定义。我不知道别人怎么认为，但我确实觉得每种情况下都有一些真正的东西存在。
This may seem like a divergence but I and many other people are very curious about a recent decision that you made which was to close your account on Twitter. You still have an Instagram account I noticed but I love friendly role over it. I've been there a lot. I've never even seen it. So it's pretty good actually considering imagine what would happen if you did. Yeah, deep-faited. They're doing a good job with it but your decision to close your account on Twitter. I think grabbed a lot of eyes and ears and there's a lot of questions about why. It was a very large account. It correlated with a number of things that for the outsider people might be wondering about new leadership, new people who had been booted off, brought back on or at least invited back on and so on.
这可能看起来有些偏题，但我和许多人都很好奇你最近做出的一个决定，那就是关闭了你的推特账号。我注意到你仍然保留着一个Instagram账号，但我对它的使用比较随意。我经常访问那里，但从未看到过。实际上考虑到如果你真的使用的话，效果可能会很好。是的，深度伪造。它们真的做得很好，但你关闭推特账号的决定似乎引起了很多人的关注，大家对原因有很多疑问。那可是一个很大的账号，它与许多事情有关联，比如新领导层、新上线或被邀请回来的人等等，从外人看来这可能会让人好奇。
You are certainly not obligated to explain your behavior to me or anybody else for that matter but I'm curious if you might share with us what the motivation was for taking the account down and how you feel in the absence of I mean your thumbs presumably are freed up to do other things. Yeah, I was getting like an arthritic right thumb. I think. If you don't mind sharing I think there's a lot of curiosity about you and your routines. You've been very generous in sharing that your knowledge and but also kind of like what makes what makes you tick what motivates pretty big decisions like that.
您当然没有义务向我或其他人解释您的行为，但我很好奇您是否愿意与我们分享一下，是什么动机让您决定关闭这个账户，以及在没有账户的情况下，您的感觉如何。我想您的大拇指应该有了更多的自由空间来做其他事情。是的，我的右手大拇指好像都有点关节炎了。如果您不介意分享，很多人对您的日常生活和习惯充满好奇。您一直慷慨地分享您的知识，还有那些促使您做出重大决定的动力。
It wasn't a major platform for you. So it was the only social media platform I've ever engaged. Like you said, I have an Instagram, I have a Facebook account but I never used those as platforms. I've never followed people and I've never and all the posting has just come from it's just marketing from my team. But Twitter was me. I mean for better or worse and I began to feel more and more for worse and it was it was interesting because it was very, I've talked about it a lot on my podcast about just my love hate relationship with Twitter over the years. Many good things came to me from Twitter and I was following a lot of smart people and it had become my news feed and my first point of contact with information each day and I was really attached to it just for that reason just as a consumer of content.
这不是你主要使用的平台。所以这是我唯一真正参与过的社交媒体平台。就像你说的，我有Instagram和Facebook账号，但我从未把那些当作真正使用的平台。我从未关注过别人，我的所有发帖也都只是我的团队进行的营销。然而，Twitter对我来说不一样。不论好坏，我本人在使用，并且我开始感到越来越走向坏的一面。这很有趣，因为我在播客中多次谈到我对Twitter的爱恨交织的关系。通过Twitter，我得到了很多好处。我关注了许多聪明的人，Twitter成为了我的新闻来源和每天接触信息的第一个渠道。我真的很依赖它，仅仅因为我是个内容的消费者。
And then it was also a place where I genuinely wanted to communicate with people and react to things and I would see some article that I thought was great and I would signal boost it to my people following me on Twitter and that was rewarding and I was I could literally help people on Twitter. I mean there were people who I've raised lots of money for on Twitter just by signal boosting their GoFundMe's and so I was engaged in a way that seemed productive. But I was always worried that it was producing needless conflict for me and was was giving me a signal in my life that I was being lured into respond into and taken seriously that was out of proportion to its its representation of any opinion or set of opinions that I should be taken seriously.
然后，这也是一个我真心想与人交流并对事物做出反应的地方。我会看到一些我觉得很棒的文章，然后在推特上分享给关注我的人，这让我感到很有成就感。而且，我确实能在推特上帮助别人。我曾经通过分享他们的众筹链接帮助很多人筹集资金，所以我以一种看似富有成效的方式参与其中。但是，我总是担心这会给我带来不必要的冲突，并让我误以为这些网络上的声音比它们实际所表示的观点或意见更值得认真对待。
So I was noticing that that again this evolved over years I mean this this long before long long predated recent changes to Twitter but I was noticing that many of the worst things that had happened for me professionally were first born on Twitter. I mean just like you know some some conflict I got into with somebody or something that I felt like I needed to podcast about in response to on Twitter. It's just so much of it it's either it's Genesis was Twitter or it's the the further spin of it that became truly unpleasant and dysfunctional happened on Twitter like it was just Twitter was part of the story when it was got really bad and I've had you know vacations that have gone sideways just because I got on Twitter and said something and then I had produced a controversy that I had to respond to and then I had to do a podcast about that and plot and just and it was just okay this is a mess right and so at that point you know I you know I have friends who you know also had big Twitter platforms who would who would say you know why are you you know why are you responding to anything on Twitter just tweet and ghost you know just due to having to have like Joe Rogan sat me down and tried to get you know give me a talk into I stood Bill more and both of them engaged Twitter in that way.
这几年我注意到，我职业生涯中很多最糟糕的事情都是在 Twitter 上开始发酵的。这些问题的出现时间很早，远在 Twitter 最近的变化之前。比如，我和某人的冲突或者我觉得需要在播客中回应的一些事情，往往起源于 Twitter。许多不愉快和混乱之事，不论是从头开始还是后续的蔓延，Twitter 都成了故事的一部分。当事情变得非常糟糕时，Twitter 似乎总是存在其中。我甚至有过度假时因为在 Twitter 上说了一句话而产生争议，不得不回应，然后录制播客并策划一堆事情的经历，简直就是一团糟。
在这种情况下，我有些朋友也有很大的 Twitter 影响力，他们建议我不要在 Twitter 上回应任何事情，只需发推文然后不再理会。像 Joe Rogan 和 Bill Maher 就采取这种方式使用 Twitter，他们曾劝我也这样做。
I mean they I think they basically never look at their ad mentions they never see what's coming back at them they just you know they use it effectively the way I use or don't even use Instagram or Facebook I don't even see what's going out there in my name and so I I could essentially do that for myself on Twitter presumably and I did that for some periods of time but then I would continually decide okay now it's all balanced again maybe I can just communicate here because it was very tempting for me to communicate with people because I would see somebody you know clearly misunderstanding something I had said on my podcast and I think like why not clarify this misunderstanding right and and my efforts to do that almost invariably produced a this I mean sometimes it was a kind of a meandering process of discovery but often it was just kind of a stark confrontation with what appeared to me to be just lunacy and malevolence on a scale that I never encounter elsewhere in my life like I never meet these people in life right and yet I was meeting these people by the tens of thousands on Twitter.
我的意思是，我觉得他们基本上从不查看他们的广告提及，也从不关注别人对他们的反馈。他们使用社交媒体的方式，就像我使用或者根本不使用Instagram或Facebook一样。我甚至都不关注别人以我的名义发了什么内容。所以，我大概也可以在Twitter上这样做。其实有一段时间我就是这样做的，但是我总是决定，好的，现在一切都平衡了，也许我可以在这里交流一下。因为对我来说，与人沟通是很有吸引力的，我看到有人明显误解了我在播客里说的某些话，就想，为什么不澄清一下这个误会呢？然而，我的澄清几乎总是引发了一种奇怪的结果。有时候这是一个迂回的发现过程，但通常，我觉得这只是一种直面的疯狂和恶意，规模之大是我在现实生活中从未遇到过的——我在生活中从未遇到这些人，但在Twitter上我却遇到了成千上万这样的人。
And so the thing that began to worry me about it and again this I understand that people have the opposite experience I mean depending on what you're putting out and what you're you know the kinds of topics you're touching you could have just nothing but love coming back at you on Twitter right but because I'm very essentially in the center politically and because I'm you know I'm this is now on my podcast this is not in the waking up app I'm often criticizing the far left and criticizing the far right I'm basically pissing off everyone some of the time right say and it's very different if you're only criticizing the left you hate I'm you know that you get hate from the left but you have all the people on the right who just reflexively and tribally are expressing their solidarity for you right and who are who are dunking on your enemies for you and you know when when your enemies come out of the woodwork and if you're only criticizing the right you get a lot of pain from the right but you've got the people on the left who are tribally identified with the left who are who are just going to reflexively defend you if you're in the center criticizing the left as hard as anyone on the right ever criticized the left criticizes the left and you're also criticizing the right as hard as anyone on the left criticizes the right you're getting hate from both sides all the time and no one is reflexively and tribally defending you because you pissed them off last time you're like you might be getting hate from the left now and the people on the right agree with you but they can't forget the thing you said about Trump on that podcast you know you know two podcasts ago so they're not going to defend you.
这个事情让我开始感到担忧，我明白有的人会有不同的体验。也就是说，取决于你在社交媒体上发布的内容和涉及的话题，你可能会在推特上收获满满的支持。但是，由于我在政治上基本处于中间立场，而且经常在播客中批评极左和极右，所以总是会让一些人生气。情况就很不一样了。如果你只批评左翼，你会收到来自左翼的攻击，但右翼的人会出于本能和群体意识支持你，还会替你打击敌人。当你的敌人冒出来时也是如此。而如果你只批评右翼，你会遭遇来自右翼的攻击，但左翼的人会本能地为你辩护。如果你在中间，同时像右翼那样批评左翼，又像左翼那样批评右翼，你就会始终受到双方的攻击，而没有谁会本能地出于群体意识为你辩护，因为你之前可能也让他们生气了。比如，你现在可能受到来自左翼的批评，右翼的人可能同意你的观点，但他们还记得你之前在某个播客中说过关于特朗普的那些话，所以他们不会为你辩护。
And so what I basically created hell for myself on Twitter because it was um I just you know it was just a theater of which is pure cacophony most of the time and what I was seeing was I mean there's no way there's this many psychopaths in the world but I was seeing psychopaths everywhere I was seeing like the most malicious dishonesty and you know just goalposts moving and hypocrisy and and I mean it was just I mean some of it's trolling and some of its real confusion and some of it is psychopathy but it's like it was so dark that um I worried that it was actually giving me a a very negative and sticky uh view of humanity that was I mean one it was you know I think it isn't an inaccurate but two I it was it was something I was returning to so much because again I was checking Twitter you know at least a dozen times a day and I'm sure there were some days where I checked it a hundred times a day.
因此，我在 Twitter 上基本上为自己创造了一个地狱，因为大多数时候它就是一个彻底的混乱剧场。我所看到的是，我不敢相信这个世界上有这么多精神变态者，但我却到处都看到精神变态者，我看到的是极其恶意的不诚实、不断变化的标准、虚伪等。有些是恶作剧，有些是真正的混乱，有些是精神变态，但这种黑暗让我担心它对我形成了一个非常负面和黏腻的对人性的看法。首先，我认为这种看法并不准确，其次，我频繁地返回这种环境，因为我每天至少查看 Twitter 十几次，甚至有些天我可能查看了一百次。
I mean it was it was again it was my main source of information I was constantly reading articles and and then putting my own stuff out that it became this kind of fun house mirror in which I was looking at the the most grotesque side of humanity and feeling you know implicated in in in ways that were important important because it was just it was reputationally important or seemed to be important. I know a lot of these people it's not these weren't just faceless trolls these are these are people with whom I have had relationships and in some cases friendships who because of what you know largely Trump and COVID did to our political landscape in the last you know half a dozen years um we're beginning to act in ways that's that that seemed you know starkly dishonest and you know crazy making to me.
我的意思是，这确实是我的主要信息来源。我不断地阅读文章，然后发表自己的观点，这就像一个哈哈镜，我看到的是人性中最丑陋的一面，并感觉自己在某种重要的方面受到了牵连。这很重要，因为它对我的声誉有影响，似乎显得很重要。我认识这些人，他们不仅仅是没有面目的喷子，而是一些我有过关系，甚至有些是朋友的人。由于过去六年来特朗普和新冠疫情对我们的政治局势产生的影响，他们开始表现出在我看来非常不诚实和让人感到疯狂的行为。
So I was just noticing that I was forming a view of people who I actually have had dinner with that was way more negative based on their Twitter behavior than I think would ever be justified by anyway they would behave in life with me you know I mean that's like it's never I was never going to have a face-to-face encounter with any of these people that was this malicious and dishonest and gaslighting and weird right as as what was what was happening hourly on Twitter right and so I just began to become more sensitive to what this was you know just the residue of all of this in my life and how and just how often the worst thing that the worst thing about me in my relationship with the people in my life you know they just talking to my wife or my kids was just the fact that I had been on Twitter at some point in the you know previously in the in the previous hour and there was some residue of that.
我注意到一个现象，就是我对那些曾一起吃过饭的人形成了一种更为负面的看法，而这种看法主要是基于他们在推特上的行为。在现实生活中，他们与我共处时的表现远不至于如此恶劣、虚伪、爱操控和古怪，正如他们在推特上所表现的那样。所以我逐渐开始对这种现象更为敏感，意识到这些消极情绪在我生活中残留的影响。尤其是，在我与家人，妻子或孩子相处时，我最糟糕的一面常常是因为我刚刚上过推特，而这些负面情绪在此之前的某个时刻残留了下来。
You know if you know in my interaction with them you know it's like what you know what he's stressed out about what do you annoyed about what do you pissed off about you know what can't you get out of your head um what is the thing that you now feel like you need to spend the next week of your life focused on because it went so sideways for you all of that was Twitter you know a little literally a hundred percent of that was Twitter and and so I just at one point I it was actually on Thanksgiving day I just looked at this and I just just I mean there was very little thought went into it I mean literally I mean you know it was more thought in involved. in you you know whether I wanted coffee when you asked me when I showed up here I'm just like a certain point I just I just saw it and I just I just ripped the bandaid off and yeah so um and to answer your other question it's been almost wholly positive as you might expect given the the litany of pain and discomfort I just ran through but um I mean it's also it's it's surprising to recognize how much of a presence it was in my life given the sense of what is now missing.
在与他们的互动中，我总是关注他在烦恼什么、生气什么、无法释怀什么，以及什么事情让他觉得接下来的一周都必须专注于此，因为这些事情在他看来发生得太糟糕了。所有这些烦恼几乎都是因为推特。而且就在某个时刻，实际上是在感恩节那天，我看着这些状况，几乎没花什么心思就做了决定。说实话，我在决定是否要喝咖啡时都比这花了更多时间思考。我只是在某一刻，看清了这一切，就像撕掉创可贴一样果断地做出了决定。
对于你的另一个问题，我的回答是，几乎所有的结果都是积极的，这可以想象，因为我刚才描述了那么多痛苦和不安。不过，也让我惊讶的是，在当下的生活中意识到缺失的部分，推特曾是多么重要的一部分。
I mean it's like there there's it was there's no question there was a there's an addictive component to it and when you see I'm like when I look at what Elon's doing on Twitter forget about his ownership of it and I mean I'm not you know I have got a lot to say about you know the choices he's making for the platform but just his personal use of it is just so obviously an expression of I mean I don't know if addiction is the you know clinically appropriate term but you know his dysfunctional attachment to tweet to using the platform forget again forget forget about changing it and owning it but just the just the degree to which it is pointlessly disrupting the life of one of the most productive people in any generation um uh I that was also instructive to me because I know Elon and I I just you know um he's from you know kind of a friend's eye view of the situation it's so obviously not good for him that he's spending this much time on Twitter um that uh I just brought that back to me it's like well it is not if this is what is doing to Elon and he's got all these other things he could be doing with his attention how much of my use of Twitter is actually you know a good idea and you know optimized to my well-being and the well-being of the people around me.
我的意思是，这其中显然存在一种上瘾的成分。当我看到埃隆在推特上的行为时，且不谈他对推特的所有权和跨平台所做的选择，就单单看他个人的使用方式，这显然表现出一种，我不知道"上瘾"是否是医用上合适的词，但无疑他对这个平台有一种不健康的依赖。再次强调，不说他改变或拥有推特的部分，只是他对推特的使用已经无意义地干扰了他作为这一代最有生产力的人之一的生活。
这一点对我来说也很有启发，因为我认识埃隆，从朋友的视角来看，很明显对他如此多地花费时间在推特上是不利的。这让我反思，如果这已经影响到了像埃隆这样有很多其他事情可以专注的人，那我使用推特的方式对我自身和周围人的福祉来说，究竟有多少是合理并优化的呢？
And um so anyway it was there was an addictive component to it I think and so when that got stripped off I you know I do notice that there's I mean there's some there times I pick up my phone and I realize this is like the old me picking it up my phone for for a reason that no longer exists because there's not that much you know I you know I have a slack channel with my team and I've got email obviously but it's like that is not much of what I was doing with my phone really in the end and so like it's just my phone is much less of a presence in my life and and so it's it's almost wholly good but um yeah I it's you know there's I think there is some danger in or some some possible danger in losing touch with certain aspects of culture which again I'm not even sure I mean there's this question of you know how much is Twitter real life and how much is it just a mass delusion I don't know but in so far as it actually matters what happens on Twitter um or in so far as I was actually getting a news diet which I'm not going to be able to recapitulate for myself or I'm just not in fact want to recapitulate for myself even if I could um if any of that matters I haven't discovered that yet but it's yeah I mean there's it was taking up an immense amount of bandwidth.
嗯，所以总之，我觉得它有点像上瘾的成分。当那部分被剥离后，我会注意到有时候我拿起手机，意识到这像是过去的自己在为了一个已经不存在的原因而拿起手机。因为实际上，我与团队有一个Slack频道，还有电子邮件，但这些并不是我以前用手机做的大部分事情。所以，现在我的手机在生活中的存在感小了很多。这几乎完全是好事。但我也觉得有些危险，比如可能会失去与某些文化方面的联系。不过，我也不确定，比如说，Twitter上的事情到底有多真实，或者它只是一个集体幻觉。我不知道。但如果Twitter上的事情真的重要，或者说我从中获取到了某种新闻资讯，那些我自己无法重现，也许即使可以我也不想重现的东西——如果这些真的重要，我还没有发现。不过，当时它确实占用了我大量的精力。
And it's impressive I mean I think I said I you know it's like I amputated a a phantom limb right it like it was not a real limb but it was it was a this continuous presence in my life that um that uh it is it's weird it actually relates to the concept of self in in surprising ways because I felt there was a part of myself that existed on Twitter and I you know I I just performed a suicide of that itself rather like that's this is ending right now and you know there's no residue there's nothing go back and check there's just it's gone I didn't even I didn't go back and look at my like what's interesting to consider is that you know I've been on Twitter for 12 years I don't keep a journal I mean Twitter what in my timeline would have been a kind of journal I could have gone back to a specific hour in a specific day and looked at what I was paying attention to I mean that could have been an interesting record of just who I've been for a decade and I and I'm probably a pretty humbling record of who I've been for a decade um in terms of the kinds of things that captivated my attention.
这让人印象深刻。我的意思是，我觉得就像是切除了一个“幻肢”——它并不是真实存在的肢体，但却在我的生活中一直存在。这个感觉很奇怪，实际上在令人惊讶的方面与自我概念有关，因为我觉得我的一部分自我存在于Twitter上。而我就像是结束了这一部分自我，就像是它已不复存在。现在没有任何痕迹，没有什么可以回去查看的记录，真的就这么消失了。我甚至没有回头去看我的推文。值得考虑的是，我在Twitter上待了12年，我没有写日记，而我的Twitter时间线本可以成为一种日记。我可以回到某一天的某个时刻，看看那时我关注的是什么。这本可以成为一个有趣的记录，记录下我在过去十年中是怎样的一个人，而在某种程度上，这也可能成为一份让我谦逊的记录，反映出我在过去十年中有哪些东西吸引了我的注意力。
But I didn't even you know it didn't even think to go in the state you know nostalgicly just look at any of that or see if any of it was worth saving or archiving or think it I just just delete you know and it was um uh and so my my actual sense of who I am and my engagement with with my audience my you know the the world of people who could potentially know me like what does it mean to be to have a platform you know where do I exist digitally my sense of up all of that got truncated in a in a way that is much less noisy. I mean it's amazing how much can't get fucked up now in my life like it's like with Twitter almost anything could happen right like like the next tweet was always an opportunity to massively complicate my life.
但是我甚至没有想到要去翻阅那些东西，也没有想过要看看有没有什么值得保存或存档的，只是直接删掉了。这样一来，我对自我身份的认知以及与观众的互动，还有那些可能认识我的人所构成的世界的认知，都变得不那么嘈杂了。这让我觉得很不可思议，我的生活中有很多东西不再那么容易被搞乱。就像在使用推特的时候，几乎任何事情都有可能发生，下一条推文总是有可能让我生活变得复杂得多。
There is no analogous space for me now and you know this is what I'm going to say on your podcast what I'm going to say on my own podcast what I'm going to write next that's much more um you know deliberative and uh the opportunities to take my foot out of my mouth or to reconsider all you know whether anything any of this is worth it is it worth is this the hill I really want to die on now um it's it's much more um can be much more considered and I mean I think all of that's to the good.
现在对我来说，没有类似的空间，你知道这就是我将在你的播客上说的，也是我将在我自己的播客上说的，以及我接下来要写的内容。这种方式更加审慎，也让我有机会在开口之前三思而后行，重新考虑这一切是否值得，是否值得为此全力以赴。这样的思考过程更加深入，我认为这都是有益的。
But even more important than that is there's not I'm not getting this continuous signal that is always inviting a response whether on Twitter on my own podcast or you know anywhere else um and it's just much less noisy I mean life is much less noisy and cluttered and that's you know that that is it definitely feels better right just uh it's 100% better. I'm happy to hear that I know a number of people miss you there but um you sound happy I sense the genuine happiness in it.
但是更重要的是，我不再持续收到这些不断邀请我做出回应的信号，比如在推特上或者我自己的播客上，总之就是各种各样的地方。生活变得没那么嘈杂和混乱，这确实让人感觉好多了，简直好了一百倍。我很高兴听到你这样说，尽管有很多人想念你，但我听得出你真的很开心。
Several things come to mind uh first of all thank you for sharing your your rationale there and how it went. I think for a lot of people I think oh you must have walked around in circles for hours talking about him as many good decisions are executed right yeah um you know I'm a big fan of Cal Newport's work deep work in many ways cows I've never met him but um we know each other through the the internet space he um really ahead of his time with this notion of deep work and limiting distractions.
有几件事情让我想到了，首先，非常感谢你分享了你的想法和整个过程。很多人可能会认为，你一定花了好几个小时在那儿转圈，不停地讨论他，因为许多好的决定就是这样做出来的。嗯，你知道，我非常喜欢卡尔·纽波特的作品《深度工作》（Deep Work）。虽然我从未见过他，但我们在网络空间中有所了解。他在关于深度工作和减少干扰的理念上确实很有前瞻性。
I think he's even got a book about a world without email really extremely so he had I mean he deserved some credit because he had been somewhat approximate cost of this he had been on my podcast and he had encouraged me to delete to the Twitter because I had been I had been sort of in the in reaching some kind of uh you know crisis point with it uh prior to that podcast and so we've talked about it and I had I had recorded that podcast but hadn't released.
我觉得他甚至还有一本书是关于一个没有电子邮件的世界，真的非常极端。我要说的是，他确实值得一些赞扬，因为他在某种程度上预见到了这个问题。他曾参与我的播客节目，并鼓励我删除推特，因为在那期播客之前，我对推特的使用确实到了某种危机点。我们当时聊了这些，我也录制了那期播客，但还没发布。
I actually recorded the podcast the day before I wound up deleting Twitter but hadn't yet released it so you know my podcast with him you know in the intro to it I then give a post mortem on my to deleting it but he was he was one of the last people who was in my head around these issues and I actually you know it was that was not by accent I had invited him on the podcast because I increasingly wanted to think about you know whether this was totally dysfunctional.
我实际上是在删除推特的前一天录制了这个播客，但当时还没有发布。所以在播客的介绍部分，我谈到了我删除推特后的感想。他是让我思考这些问题的最后几个人之一。而且，我邀请他上播客并不是偶然的，因为我越来越想知道这种情况是否完全无效。
Well I'm a big fan of Cal Newport's and I I am on social media I'm on Twitter I had some you know high friction interactions there and I have a process for dealing with those I tend to avoid high friction confrontations online but Instagram is a much friendlier place by the way if you want to come over to wear like the nice kids like the cool kids actually hang out Strangely I'm not looking for a substitute okay well you know that's uh I didn't I don't let me entice you over there you do.
好的，我非常喜欢Cal Newport。我确实使用社交媒体，像是Twitter，我在那里遇到了一些让人挺费神的互动，对此我有自己的一套处理方法。我通常会尽量避免在线上发生较为激烈的对抗。不过，Instagram要友好得多，如果你想加入那些友善又酷的人群的话，可以来这里。奇怪的是，我并不想寻找一个替代品。好的，你知道，我并不打算诱导你过来，这完全取决于你。
But I think that this notion of really being able to access what Cal calls deep work what Rick Rubin talks about you know being able to touch the source of create creativity and focus and on a regular basis does require that one have certain types of and in some cases zero interaction with certain platforms that merely being on a platform and blocking people that would just won't provide I think a lot of energy opens up and I'm fascinated by this concept of energy and we only have so much energy yeah neural energy to devote um and in many ways what you described um there's really I think striking parallels to what I'm talking about all along these last hours which is that sometimes the thing that feels so um so powerful that has such a gravitational pull and that we think this is experience this is life this is just the way it is actually is an illusion and when you step away from it you realize that there's this whole other dimension of interactions that that was available all along for that we uh for whatever reason um we're intervening in by way of our reflexive distracted behavior.
但我认为，要真正进入Cal所说的深度工作，或者像Rick Rubin提到的那种能够触及创造力和专注来源的状态，确实需要我们在某些时候减少，甚至完全避免与某些平台的互动。仅仅停留在一个平台上并屏蔽其他人，并不能提供太多的能量。我对能量这个概念很感兴趣，因为我们拥有的能量——特别是神经能量——是有限的。在很多方面，你所描述的事情与我在过去几小时中一直讨论的内容有着惊人的相似之处。那就是，有时候那些让我们感到如此强烈吸引力的东西，我们认为是生活的全部，实际上可能是一种错觉。当你远离它时，你会意识到，还有其他的互动维度一直都存在，只是因为我们习惯性的分心行为而未能体验。
So I think there's a there's a there's a poetry there I was a hard case but uh yeah I got religion on this point it's uh it's a good change well Sam I want to say a couple of things first of all every time you talk I learn so much and that's you know in the dimensions of neuroscience even hardcore neural circuitry type stuff which I'm you know it's sort of my home um when you talk about philosophy or uh or meditation or psychedelics and even politics some a topic that I'm you know uh woefully undereducated in but um you have this amazing ability to to blend and synergize across things and I think today what what occurs to me is that um not only is that no accident because of your training and your the rigor and the depth that which you've explored these different topics but also your openness to it but I think at least for me above all is because I think you are able to encapsulate this idea of the self and and the different ways in which we each and all can potentially interact with the environment and and our inner landscape.
因此，我认为其中蕴含着一种诗意。我以前很顽固，但在这个问题上彻底转变了。这是个不错的变化。嗯，山姆，我想说几句话。首先，每次你讲话时，我都能学到很多东西，无论是神经科学领域，甚至是硬核神经回路的内容，这是我的本行。当你谈论哲学、冥想、迷幻药，甚至政治这些我相对缺乏了解的主题时，你总能体现出一种惊人的能力，将不同领域融合并产生协同效应。我认为今天我意识到，不仅因为你的训练和在这些不同主题上扎实和深入的探索使这一切毫不意外，同时也因为你的开放态度。但我认为，至少对我来说，最重要的是你能够很好地诠释自我这一理念，以及我们每个人如何与外部环境和内在世界互动。
Um your description of meditation I have to say is and if now has forever changed the way I think about meditation I would no longer just think of it as a perceptual exercise I on the podcast I've been talking about is something to to do for these various benefits the benefit set of more focus at your stress etc of which certainly exists but what you described today has a um as such an allure and a um holds such a promise that um as I mentioned I'm certainly going to change my behavior and I know I'm speaking on behalf of many many people I just want to extend my thanks for your coming here today to teach us even more because of course you have your podcast and the app and the waking up app um and the fact that regardless of the political landscapes regardless of the what neuroscience feels about psychedelics or the where things are at any point. in time you strike me as somebody who is very committed to sharing knowledge and thoughtful deep discourse so that people can benefit and there are very few people like you um in fact there's probably only just one and so I feel very grateful to be sitting across the table from them for these last hours.
我不得不说，你对冥想的描述彻底改变了我对它的看法。此前，我只将冥想视作一种感知练习，主要是为了提升专注力、减轻压力等益处。但今天你所描述的冥想充满了吸引力和承诺，使我决定改变自己的行为。我想我不仅仅是在代表自己说这番话，很多人可能都会因此受到影响。我非常感谢你今天来到这里，教给我们更多的知识。你有自己的播客，还有“Waking Up”这个应用程序，尽管政治环境变幻莫测，神经科学对迷幻药的看法尚无定论，但你始终致力于分享知识，进行深思熟虑的讨论，让大家受益。像你这样的人很少，事实上，或许就你一个。因此，我非常感激能在这些小时里坐在你对面。
Well nice nice well I really enjoyed this and I want to congratulate you on what you built here because your podcast is is everywhere I just come you know I'm a fan and even more than that I've continually seen the evidence of you reaching people and benefiting people and it's just it's really I mean like this is the one of the best examples of you know new media just carving out of space that you know people didn't really know existed you know because like this is not television it's not radio it's not and and all of a sudden people have time to hear a conversation of great length that goes into you know nitty gritty scientific detail on you know hormones I mean like who would have thought that was even possible and so yeah I was just congratulations it's fantastic to see and I'm just very happy for the opportunity to talk to you and and your people.
很好，很好，我真的很享受这个过程，我想祝贺你所建立的一切，因为你的播客无处不在。我只是，你知道，我是你的粉丝，甚至不止如此，我不断看到证据表明你接触到了许多人，并为他们带来了益处。这真的是——我是说——这是新媒体开辟新空间的最佳例子之一，人们以前并不知道这些机会存在。因为这既不是电视，也不是广播，而人们突然有时间听这样详细深入的对话，深入探讨诸如激素之类的科学细节。谁能想到这是可能的呢？所以，我要祝贺你，这实在是太棒了，能与你和你的团队进行交流，我感到非常高兴。
Well thank you it's very gratifying to hear and I feel very blessed in no small part because of our conversation today. Thank you so much. Nice going to be continued. To be continued we'll do it again and again and again. Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Dr. Sam Harris. I hope you found it to be as enlightening as I did and be sure to check out the waking up app the Dr. Sam Harris has made free to any Huberman lab listeners for 30 days by going to waking up calm slash Huberman. Please also check out his incredible podcast the Making Sense podcast and you can find any number of Sam Harris's different books on meditation consciousness philosophy, neuroscience, politics and more. You can find links to those books by going to Sam Harris.org.
感谢您今天的加入，听到这些让我感到非常欣慰，我也觉得非常幸运，尤其是因为我们今天的对话。非常感谢。很高兴能继续，我们会一遍又一遍地这样做。感谢您今天参与我与Sam Harris博士的讨论。希望您和我一样觉得这次交流很有启发。请务必查看Sam Harris博士开发的Waking Up应用程序，该应用在wakingup.com/huberman提供给Huberman Lab听众免费使用30天。还请收听他精彩的播客节目《Making Sense》。您还可以在SamHarris.org上找到Sam Harris关于冥想、意识、哲学、神经科学、政治等主题的书籍的链接。
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's the best zero cost way to support us. In addition please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us up to a five star review. If you have questions for us or comments or topics that you'd like me to cover or guess you'd like me to invite onto the Huberman lab podcast please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. Not so much during today's episode but on many episodes of the Huberman lab podcast we discuss supplements while supplements aren't necessary for everybody. Many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing the depth and quality of sleep, for enhancing focus and for hormone support and many other aspects of mental health physical health and performance.
如果您正在学习或喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是支持我们最好的零成本方式。此外，请在Spotify和Apple上订阅我们的播客，并且可以在这两个平台上给我们最高5星的评价。如果您有问题、评论或想让我讨论的话题，或者希望邀请的嘉宾参加Huberman实验室播客，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有评论。还请查看在本期节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商。这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。在Huberman实验室播客的许多集中，我们会讨论补充剂，尽管补充剂对每个人都不是必需的，但很多人在提高睡眠质量、增强专注力、支持激素以及其他心理和身体健康方面从中受益匪浅。
The Huberman lab podcast is proud to announce that we are now partnered with momentous supplements because momentous supplements are of the very highest quality they ship internationally and they have single ingredient formulations which turns out to be important if you're going to develop the most cost effective and biologically effective supplementation regimen. If you'd like to access the supplements discussed on the Huberman lab podcast you can go to live momentous spelled OUS so live momentous.com slash Huberman. If you're not already following us on social media we are Huberman lab on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn and Facebook and all of those places I talk about science and science related tools some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman lab podcast. Again it's Huberman lab on all social media handles all platforms Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn.
Huberman实验室播客自豪地宣布，我们现在与Momentous补充剂合作，因为Momentous补充剂质量极高，支持国际运输，并且采用单一成分配方。事实证明，这对于制定最具成本效益和生物效力的补充方案至关重要。如果您想获取Huberman实验室播客中讨论的补充剂，您可以访问Live Momentous的网站，网址是livemomentous.com/Huberman。
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我们是Huberman实验室，在Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn和Facebook上都有账号。在这些平台上，我会谈论科学和与科学相关的工具，有些内容与Huberman实验室播客的内容相重叠，但很多内容是独立于播客的。再次提醒，我们在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是Huberman实验室，包括Instagram、Twitter、Facebook和LinkedIn。
If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter that's a monthly newsletter it's completely zero cost and includes summaries of podcast episodes as well as toolkits for things like enhancing your sleep and enhancing your focus and ability to learn hormone support fitness and on and on you simply go to huberman lab.com go to the menu click on the menu and scroll down to newsletter provide your email and you can start receiving our monthly neural network newsletter.
如果你还没有订阅我们的神经网络月刊，现在就可以订阅。该月刊是免费的，其中包括播客节目的摘要以及提升睡眠、提高注意力和学习能力、激素支持、健身等方面的工具包。你只需访问 huberman lab.com，打开菜单，向下滚动找到新闻通讯，填写你的电子邮箱，就可以开始接收我们的每月神经网络月刊了。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Sam Harris all about meditation consciousness free will psychedelics social media and much much more and as always thank you for your interesting science.
感谢您再次加入我与萨姆·哈里斯博士的讨论，今天我们聊了关于冥想、意识、自由意志、迷幻药、社交媒体等等话题，一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。