#267 – Mark Zuckerberg: Meta, Facebook, Instagram, and the Metaverse
发布时间 2022-02-26 17:26:05 来源
The following is a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Facebook, now called Mehta. Please allow me to say a few words about this conversation with Mark Zuckerberg, about social media, and about what troubles me in the world today, and what gives me hope. If this is not interesting to you, I understand, please skip.
以下是与Facebook现在名叫Mehta的首席执行官马克·扎克伯格的对话。请允许我谈一下这次与马克·扎克伯格的交谈，关于社交媒体，以及现今世界令我困惑的事情，以及令我感到希望的事情。如果这不对你有趣，我理解，请跳过。
I believe that at its best, social media puts a mirror to humanity and reveals the full complexity of our world, shining a light on the dark aspects of human nature, and giving us hope, a way out, through compassionate but tense chaos of conversation that eventually can turn into understanding, friendship, and even love. But this is not simple. Our world is not simple.
我认为，社交媒体在最好的时候，像是一面反映人性的镜子，揭示出我们世界的全部复杂性，照亮了人性黑暗的一面，给我们希望，通过有同情心但充满紧张的对话混乱，最终可以转化成理解、友谊，甚至爱。但这并不简单，我们的世界也不简单。
It is full of human suffering. I think about the hundreds of millions of people who are starving and who live in extreme poverty. The 1 million people who take their own life every year, the 20 million people that attempt it, and the many, many more millions who suffer quietly, in ways that numbers can never know. I'm troubled by the cruelty and pain of war. Today my heart goes out to the people of Ukraine.
这里充满着人类的苦难。我想到了那数以亿计挨饿和生活在极度贫困中的人们。每年会自杀的100万人，尝试自杀的2000万人，还有更多无数默默承受痛苦却数不尽的人们。战争的残酷和痛苦也让我感到不安。今天，我心系乌克兰民众。
My grandfather spilled his blood on this land. All the line is a machine gunner against the Nazi invasion, surviving impossible odds. I am nothing without him. His blood runs in my blood. My words are useless here. I send my love. It's all I have. I hope to travel to Russia and Ukraine soon. I will speak to citizens and leaders, including Vladimir Putin. Because I've said in the past, I don't care about access, fame, money or power. And I'm afraid of nothing.
我爷爷曾在这块土地上流过他的鲜血。他是一位机枪手，与纳粹入侵作斗争并奇迹般地存活下来。我没有他就一事无成。他的血液流淌在我体内。在这里，我的话语无法发挥作用。我只能送上我的爱，这是我所有的。我希望很快能去俄罗斯和乌克兰旅行。我会与当地的市民和领导人交谈，包括弗拉基米尔·普京。因为我曾经说过，我不在乎得到机会、名望、金钱或权力，我也没有任何害怕。
But I am who I am. And my goal in conversation is to understand the human being before me, no matter who they are, no matter their position. And I do believe the line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man.
但是，我就是我。我在交谈中的目标是理解面前的人，不管他们是谁，不管他们的身份如何。我确信善恶之间的界限贯穿于每个人的心中。
So this is it. This is our world. It is full of hate, violence and destruction. But it is also full of love, beauty and the insatiable desire to help each other. The people who run the social networks that show this world, that show us to ourselves have the greatest of responsibilities.
所以，这就是我们的世界。它充满了仇恨、暴力和毁灭。但它也充满了爱、美和彼此帮助的渴望。经营社交网络、展现这个世界、展现我们内心的人们有着极大的责任。
In a time of war, pandemic, atrocity, we turn to social networks to share real human insights and experiences, to organize protests and celebrations, to learn and to challenge our understanding of the world of our history and of our future, and above all to be reminded of our common humanity. When the social networks fail, they have the power to cause immense suffering. And when they succeed, they have the power to lessen that suffering. This is hard. It's a responsibility, perhaps almost unlike any other in history.
在战争、疫情、暴行的时代，我们借助社交网络分享真实的人类见解和经验，组织抗议和庆祝活动，学习并挑战我们对世界、历史和未来的理解，最重要的是提醒我们彼此之间共同人性的存在。当社交网络失败时，它们有能力带来巨大的苦难。而当它们成功时，也有能力减轻这种苦难。这很难。它是一种责任，可能是历史上几乎没有其他责任可以相提并论的。
This podcast conversation attempts to understand the man and the company who take this responsibility on, where they fail or they hope to succeed. Mark Zuckerberg's feet are often held to the fire, as they should be. And this actually gives me hope. The power of innovation and engineering coupled with the freedom of speech in the form of its highest ideal, I believe, can solve any problem in the world. But that's just it. Both are necessary. The engineer and the critic.
这个播客谈话试图理解这个男人和这个公司承担这个责任的情况，他们在哪里失败或者希望成功。马克·扎克伯格经常被严厉批评，这是应该的。而这实际上给了我希望。创新和工程的力量与言论自由的最高理想相结合，我相信可以解决世界上任何问题。但这就是关键。工程师和评论家都是必要的。
I believe that criticism is essential, but cynicism is not. And I worry that in our public discourse, cynicism too easily masquerades as wisdom, as truth, becomes viral and takes over and worse, suffocates the dreams of young minds who want to build solutions to the problems of the world. We need to inspire those young minds. At least for me, they give me hope.
我认为批评是必要的，但玩世不恭则不是。我担心，在我们的公共话语中，玩世不恭太容易伪装成智慧，成为真理，并且成为病毒式传播并占据主导地位，更糟糕的是，扼杀了想要解决世界问题的年轻人的梦想。我们需要激励这些年轻人的心灵。对于我来说，他们给了我希望。
And one small way I'm trying to contribute is to have honest conversations like these that don't just ride the viral wave of cynicism, but seek to understand the failures and successes of the past, the problems before us, and the possible solutions in this very complicated world of ours. I'm sure I will fail often. And I count on the critic to point it out when I do.
我正在尝试做出贡献的一种小方法，就是进行真诚的对话，不只是跟随愤世嫉俗的热潮，而是试图理解过去的失败和成功、我们面临的问题以及在这个非常复杂的世界中可能存在的解决方案。我相信我往往会失败。我依靠批评家指出我的错误。
But I ask for one thing, and that is to fuel the fire of optimism, especially in those who dream to build solutions. Because without that, we don't have a chance. On this too fragile tiny planet of ours.
但我有一个请求，就是激发乐观主义的热情，特别是那些梦想构建解决方案的人。因为没有这个，我们就没有机会，即使在这个如此脆弱的小星球上。
And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. First is paper space. A platform I used to train and deploy machine learning models. Second is coinbase. A platform I used to buy cryptocurrency. Third is inside tracker. A service I used to track my biological data. Fourth is ExpressVPN. The VPN I've been using for many years. And fifth is Blinkist. The app I used to read summaries of books.
现在我们快速介绍一下每个赞助商。在描述中查看他们是支持这个播客的最好方式。首先是纸张空间。这是我用来训练和部署机器学习模型的平台。其次是 Coinbase。这是我用来买加密货币的平台。第三是 Inside Tracker。这是我用来跟踪我的生物数据的服务。第四是 ExpressVPN。这是我多年来一直在使用的VPN。第五是 Blinkist。这是我用来阅读书籍摘要的应用程序。
So the choice is machine learning, cryptocurrency, health, privacy, or knowledge. Choose wise to my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting. But if you skip them, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.
所以，我的朋友们，选择是机器学习、加密货币、健康、隐私还是知识。选择明智。现在转到完整的广告宣传。一如既往，没有广告中断。我尽力让这个有趣。但如果你跳过了它们，请仍然关注赞助商。我喜欢他们的东西。也许你也会喜欢。
This show is brought to you by paper space gradient. Which is a platform that lets you build, train, and deploy machine learning models of any size and complexity. I love how powerful and intuitive it is..
这个节目是由纸张空间渐变带给你的。它是一个让你建立、训练和部署任何大小和复杂度的机器学习模型的平台。我喜欢它的强大和直观。
I should mention that Fest.ai. Of course, I highly recommend a machine learning uses it. It's run by Jeremy Howard, who is pretty much as legit of an educator and technologist programmer developer just intellect in the space and machine learning as it gets.
我应该提一下 Fest.ai。当然，我非常推荐机器学习使用它。它由Jeremy Howard运作，他是在机器学习领域受认可的教育家、技术专家、程序员和开发人员，具有无可比拟的才智。
You can host notebooks on there. You can swap out the compute instance at any time, start in a small scale GPU instance or even CPU and swap out once your compute needs increase. I'm excited by what they're calling workflows, which provides a way to automate ML pipelines on top of gradient compute infrastructure.
你可以在那里存储笔记本。你可以随时更换计算实例，可以从小型GPU实例或甚至CPU开始，一旦你的计算需求增加，就可以更换。我对他们所称的工作流程感到兴奋，它提供了一种在梯度计算基础设施上自动化ML管道的方式。
It makes it really easy with simple configuration files, Yamal files. To give gradient a try, visit gradient.run slashlex and use the sign up link there. You'll get 15 bucks in free credit, which you can use to power your next machine learning application. That's gradient.run slashlex.
使用简单配置文件和Yamal文件使其非常易于操作。如果想尝试Gradient，请访问gradient.run/lex并使用那里的注册链接。您将获得价值15美元的免费信用额，可用于推动您的下一个机器学习应用。这就是gradient.run/lex。
This show is also brought to you by Coinbase, which is a trusted and easy to use platform to buy, sell and spend cryptocurrency. I use it and love it. You can buy Bitcoin, Ethereum, Cardano, Doshcoin.
这个节目也是由 Coinbase 赞助的，它是一个可信且易于使用的平台，可以买卖和花费加密货币。我自己在用，非常喜欢！你可以购买比特币、以太币、卡尔达诺和Doshcoin。
I can keep going. All of the most popular digital currencies. In fact, I think all of the currencies for the people who have been interviewed on this podcast and even the ones that are coming up on this podcast. So it's a great way to track cryptocurrency and to learn about cryptocurrency. It's a great way to track the prices of things. It's just the interface is so intuitive. I love it.
我能继续下去。所有最受欢迎的数字货币。事实上，我认为所有接受过采访的人的货币都在这个播客中，并且即将在此播客中出现。因此，这是一个很好的跟踪加密货币，了解加密货币的方法。这是跟踪东西价格的好方法。它的界面是如此直观，我喜欢它。
They also have the Coinbase wallet, which I just recently set up. If this is good as it gets, in terms of simplicity, accessibility, if you're new to cryptocurrency, especially Coinbase is where you should go.
他们还有Coinbase钱包，我最近才设置了这个。如果您对加密货币还很新，并且这是最简单易用的，那么特别是币安是您应该去的地方。
Go to Coinbase.com slashlex. For a limited time, new users get $5 on a free Bitcoin when you sign up today. The Coinbase.com slashlex. That's Coinbase.com slashlex.
到 Coinbase.com slashlex 去。现在注册新用户，有限时获得5美元的免费比特币。 Coinbase.com slashlex。就是 Coinbase.com slashlex。
This show is also brought to you by InsideTracker, a service that you use to track biological data. They have a bunch of plans, most of which include a blood test that gives you a lot of information that you can make decisions based on.
这个节目还由InsideTracker赞助，这是一项用于追踪生物数据的服务。他们有许多计划，其中大部分包括一项血液测试，可以提供许多信息，您可以基于这些信息做出决策。
They have machine learning algorithms that analyze the data, the blood data, DNA data, fitness tracker data to provide you with a clear picture what's going on inside you and to give you science-backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. Using data from your body, using machine learning algorithms to tell you what you should change, what you should improve, all those kinds of things.
他们有机器学习算法来分析数据，包括血液数据、DNA数据、健身追踪器数据等，为您提供清晰的内部情况，并给出基于科学的建议，以进行积极的饮食和生活方式改变。利用您身体的数据，使用机器学习算法告诉您应该改变什么，应该改善什么，以及所有这些事情。
This idea is what I love. It feels like the future because you should be making decisions in your life based on data that comes from your body, not some generic population data.
这个想法是我喜欢的。感觉它就像未来，因为你应该根据来自自己身体的数据做出人生决策，而不是一些通用的人口数据。
For a limited time, you can get 25% off the entire InsideTracker store if you go to InsideTracker.com slashlex. That's InsideTracker.com slashlex.
在有限的时间内，如果你进入InsideTracker.com slashlex，你可以在整个InsideTracker商店得到25%的折扣。这就是InsideTracker.com slashlex。
This show is also brought to you by ExpressVPN. I use them to protect my privacy on the internet. There's so much I can say about ExpressVPN. I've been using them for many, many, many years.
这个节目也由ExpressVPN赞助。我用它们来保护我的互联网隐私。关于ExpressVPN我有很多话可说。我用它们已经很多年了。
Obviously, as you probably know, ISPs want to track your data even when you're using incognito mode on Chrome, all the shady sites you visit, your ISPs know about them. You can also, if you're watching Netflix, change your geographical location, which unlocks a bunch of shows that are only available in certain localities.
显而易见，正如您可能知道的那样，即便您使用 Chrome 的隐身模式，网络服务提供商仍想跟踪您的数据，它们知道您访问的所有不正当网站。另外，如果您在观看 Netflix，可以更改地理位置，这样您可以解锁在某些地区才能观看的一些节目。
Finally, my favorite reason to use ExpressVPN is it's just damn fast and intuitive, clean design of the app. It does the thing it's supposed to do, it does it well, it doesn't do anything extra.
最后，我使用ExpressVPN的最喜欢的原因是它就是非常快速和直观的，应用程序的清洁设计。它做它应该做的事情，做得很好，不会做任何多余的事情。
Big button, turning on, pick location, it works. Any device, any operating system, including my favorite OS, Linux, anyway, go to ExpressVPN.com slashlex.pod to get an extra three months free that's ExpressVPN.com slashlex.pod.
大按钮，打开，选择位置，它就可以工作了。无论是哪种设备、任何操作系统，包括我最喜欢的操作系统 Linux，只需要去 ExpressVPN.com slashlex.pod，就会额外获得三个月免费体验。记住这个网址：ExpressVPN.com slashlex.pod。
This show is also brought to you by Blinkist. My favorite app for learning new things. Blinkist takes the key ideas from thousands of nonfiction books and condenses them down into just 15 minutes that you can read or listen to. There are so many nonfiction books that can recommend on there.
这个节目也是由Blinkist提供的。这是我最喜欢的学习新知识的应用程序。Blinkist从成千上万本非小说类书籍中提取关键思想，并将它们压缩成只有15分钟的阅读或听取时间。在那里有很多非小说类书籍可以推荐。
I just actually re-listened to meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Beginning of Infinity by David Dorch is on there, Snowden book is on there, there's just countless ones. I use it all kinds of ways, help me select which books I'm going to read in full.
我刚重新听了马可·奥里留的冥想录。还有戴维·多奇的无限开始，还有斯诺登的书，还有无数其他这样的书。我用它来帮助我选择哪些书要全部阅读。
Next, review books I've already read and review books I'm never going to get a chance to read because life is short and finite and that's actually what makes life beautiful.
接下来，我要回顾我已经读过的书籍，并回顾那些我永远没有机会读到的书籍，因为生命是短暂而有限的，而这正是让生命美丽的原因。
Go to Blinkist.com slashlex to start your free seven day trial and get 25% off of a Blinkist premium membership. As Blinkist.com slashlex spelled B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T. Blinkist.com slashlex.
请到 Blinkist.com/lex 开始您的七天免费试用，并获得 Blinkist 高级会员费用的 25% 折扣。Blinkist.com/lex 拼写为 B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T.
This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with Mark Zuckerberg.
这是Lex Friedman的播客，我和Mark Zuckerberg的对话马上开始。
Is it possible that this conversation is happening inside the metaverse created by you, by Meta many years from now and we're doing a memory replay experience? I don't know the answer to that. Then I'd be some computer construct and not the person who created that meta company. But that would truly be meta.
这个对话可能是在不久以后由您或Meta创建的元宇宙中发生的，我们正在进行回忆重现体验，这是否可能？我不知道答案。那么我就成为了计算机构造而不是创建了那个Meta公司的人。但那真的很元。
Right, so this could be somebody else using the Mark Zuckerberg avatar. You can do the Mark and the Lex conversation replay from four decades ago when Meta was first sort of... I mean, it's not going to be four decades before we have photorealistic avatars like this. So I think we're much closer to that.
好的，这个可能是其他人使用马克·扎克伯格头像。你可以回放马克和莱克斯四十年前的对话，那时 Meta 第一次出现...我的意思是，我们不需要四十年才能拥有像这样逼真的头像。所以我认为我们离那个目标更近了。
Well that's something you talk about is how passionate you are about the idea of the avatar representing who you are in the metaverse. So I do these podcasts in person. I'm a stickler for that because there's a magic to the in person conversation. How long do you think it'll be before you can have the same kind of magic in the metaverse, the same kind of intimacy in the chemistry, whatever the heck it's there when we're talking a person, how difficult does it, how long before we have it in the metaverse?
那是你谈论的一个话题，你有多热衷于用化身在元宇宙中展现自己。因此我会亲自进行这些播客节目。我很执着于这一点，因为面对面的对话有着一种魔力。你认为在元宇宙中具有同样的魔力和亲密感以及让我们在面对面交流时所感受到的化学效应，需要多长时间才能实现？实现的难度有多大？多久才能实现？
Well, I think that's... This is like the key question, right? Because the thing that's different about virtual and hopefully augmented reality compared to all other forms of digital platforms before is this feeling of presence, right? The feeling that you're right, that you're in an experience and that you're there with other people or in another place. And that's just different from all of the other screens that we have today, right? Fones, TVs, all the stuff. It's, you know, they're trying to, in some cases, deliver experiences that feel high fidelity, but at no point do you actually feel like you're in it, right?
我认为这是关键问题，对吧？因为虚拟现实和希望的增强现实与以前所有其他数字平台不同的东西就是这种存在感，是吧？这种感觉就是你在经历一些事情，你和其他人或身处其他地方似乎就在那儿一样。而且这与我们现今各种其他屏幕都不同，是吧？手机、电视等等，它们有时试图给你带来高保真体验，但你从来没有真正感觉到你在其中，对吧？
At some level, your content is trying to sort of convince you that this is a realistic thing that's happening, but all of the kind of subtle signals are telling you, "No, you're looking at a screen." So the question about how you develop these systems is like, what are all of the things that make the physical world all the different cues?
在某种程度上，你的内容试图劝说你这是一个真实的事情正在发生，但所有微妙的信号都在告诉你，“不，你正在看屏幕。”因此，关于如何开发这些系统的问题是，哪些因素构成了物理世界中的所有不同暗示？
So I think on visual presence and spatial audio, we're making reasonable progress. Spatial audio makes a huge deal. I don't know if you've tried this experience, work rooms that we launch where you have meetings. And I basically made a rule for all of the top management folks at the company that they need to be doing standing meetings in work rooms already. I feel like we got a dog food this. This is how people are going to work in the future. So we have to adopt this now.
所以我认为在视觉存在和空间音频方面，我们正在取得合理的进展。 空间音频非常重要。 我不知道您是否尝试过我们推出的工作室会议体验。我基本上制定了一项规定，要求公司的所有高层管理人员立即在工作室进行会议。 我感觉我们必须用实际例子来证明这一点。这将是未来人们的工作方式。 因此，我们现在必须采用这种方式。
And there are already a lot of things that I think feel significantly better than typical Zoom meetings. Even though the avatars are a lot lower fidelity, you know, the idea that you have spatial audio, you're around a table in VR with people. If someone's talking from over there, it sounds like it's talking from over there. You can see the arm gestures and stuff feel more natural. You can have side conversations, which is something that you can't really do in Zoom. I guess you can text someone out of band. But if you're actually sitting around a table with people, you can lean over and whisper to the person next to you and have a conversation that you can't really do with.
我认为，在典型的Zoom会议中，有很多东西我觉得已经比较好了。尽管虚拟人物的保真度不高，但你可以使用空间音频，与他人在VR桌子周围交流。如果有人说话并不在你旁边，你会感到他正在从那里说话。手臂的姿态等动作也更自然。你可以与旁边的人进行聊天，这点在Zoom中是不可能的。当然，你可以通过其他方式与他人交流，但久坐于桌子周围，你可以倾身耳语，与身边的人开展对话，这是在其他平台上做不到的。
In just video communication. So I think it's interesting in what ways some of these things already feel more real than a lot of the technology that we have. Even when the visual fidelity isn't quite there, but I think it'll get there over the next few years. Now I mean, you were asking about comparing that to the true physical world, not Zoom or something like that. But there, I think you have feelings of temperature, olfactory, obviously touch. We're working on haptic gloves. The sense that you want to put your hands down and feel some pressure from the table. All these things I think are going to be really critical to be able to keep up this illusion that you're in a world and that you're fully present in this world. I think we're going to have a lot of these building blocks within the next 10 years or so.
只是视频通讯。所以我认为，一些这样的技术已经比我们拥有的很多技术更加真实，这是很有趣的事情。即使视觉上的保真度还不够，但我认为在未来几年内会变得更好。现在我是指，你问的是将其与真正的物理世界相比较，而不是Zoom或其他类似的东西。但在那方面，我认为你能感受到温度、气味、触觉。我们正在研发触觉手套。这种感觉让你想把手放下，感受到桌子上的压力。我认为所有这些都非常关键，可以保持这种幻觉，让你觉得自己身处一个世界，完全参与其中。我认为我们将在未来10年左右内拥有很多这样的基石。
Even before that, I think it's amazing how much you're just going to be able to build with software that sort of masks some of these things. Realism, I'm going along, but I was told we have a few hours here. We're here for five to six hours to bring this.
就在那之前，我个人认为使用软件来掩盖某些事情的技术已经非常惊人了。至于真实感，我很赞同，但我们还有几个小时时间在这里。我们会在这里待上五到六个小时来完成它。
Yeah, so look, that's on the shorter end of the congressional testimonies I've done. But one of the things that we found with hand presence, right, so the earliest VR you just have the headset and then, that was cool, you could look around, you feel like you're in a place, but you don't feel like you're really able to interact with it until you have hands. Then there was this big question where once you got hands, what's the right way to represent them? Initially, all of our assumptions was, okay, when I look down and see my hands in the physical world, I see an arm and it's going to be super weird if you see just your hand.
嗯，你看，那是我在国会证词中所做的比较短的一个。但我们发现使用手部时的一个问题，没错，早期的虚拟现实只有头戴式显示器，看上去很酷，你可以四处看看，感觉自己在某个地方，但直到你有了手才能真正与之互动。之后有了一个很大的问题，一旦你有了手，什么是最好的表示方法？最初，我们所有的假设都是，好的，当我低头看到我在现实世界里的手臂时，我会看到手和手臂，如果只看到手那该有多奇怪。
But it turned out to not be the case because there's this issue with your arms, which is like, what's your elbow angle? If the elbow angle that we're interpolating based on where your hand is and where your headset is actually as an accurate, it creates this very uncomfortable feeling where it's like, oh, my arm is actually out like this, but it's like, showing it in here and that actually broke the feeling of presence a lot more whereas it turns out that if you just show the hands and you don't show the arms, it actually is fine for people..
但事实并非如此，因为你的手臂有点问题，这与你的肘角有关。如果我们根据你的手的位置和头戴设备进行插值，而肘角不准确，那就会导致非常不舒服的感觉，就像我的手臂实际上是这个样子，但它显示在这里，这实际上破坏了存在感，而结果是，如果你只显示手而不显示手臂，对人们来说实际上是可以接受的。
I think that there's a bunch of these interesting psychological cues where it'll be more about getting the right details right. I think a lot of that will be possible even over a few year period or a five year period and we won't need every single thing to be solved to deliver this full sense of presence.
我想，有很多有趣的心理线索需要正确掌握才能更好地呈现。我想，即使是在几年或五年的时间里，我们也可以做到很多，而且我们不需要解决每一个细节才能呈现完整的存在感。
Yeah, that's a fascinating psychology question of what is the essence that makes in person conversation special? It's like emojis are able to convey emotion really well even though they're obviously not photorealistic. And so in that same way, just like you're saying, just showing the hands is able to create a comfortable expression with your hands. So I wonder what that is.
是的，这是一个非常有趣的心理学问题，究竟是哪些要素让面对面的交流如此特别呢？就像表情符号能够很好地传达情感一样，尽管它们显然不是照片级别的真实感。同样地，就像你所说的那样，只是展示一下手，就能够很好地表现出对方的舒适表情。所以我很好奇那是什么。
People in the world, wars, you can write letters and you can fall in love with just writing letters. You don't need to see each other in person. You can convey emotion. You can be depth of experience with just words. So that's a, I think, a fascinating place to explore psychology of like, how do you find that intimacy?
世界上的人们，战争、你可以写信，只通过写信你可以爱上一个人，不需要亲眼看到对方。你可以传达情感，只用文字就能深刻体验。所以我认为，这是一个探索心理学的迷人领域，如何找到那种亲密感。
Yeah. And the way that I come to all of this stuff is, you know, I basically studied psychology and computer science. So all of the work that I do is sort of at the intersection of those things. I think most of the other big tech companies are building technology for you to interact with. What I care about is building technology to help people interact with each other.
嗯。我接触到所有这些东西的方式就是，基本上学习了心理学和计算机科学。所以我所做的工作都是这些学科的交叉点。我认为大多数其他大型科技公司都在建立技术让你与之互动。而我关心的是建立技术来帮助人们彼此互动。
So it's, I think it's a somewhat different approach than most of the other tech entrepreneurs and big companies come at this from. And a lot of the lessons in terms of how I think about designing products come from some just basic elements of psychology, right? In terms of, you know, our brains, you know, you can compare to the brains of other animals, you know, we're very wired to specific things, facial expressions, right?
所以，我认为这是与大多数其他科技创业家和大公司从不同角度看待此问题的方法。在我思考产品设计方面的许多教训都来自于心理学的一些基本元素。例如，我们的大脑可以与其他动物的大脑进行比较，我们非常注重特定的事物，如面部表情。
I mean, we're, we're very visual, right? So compared to other animals, I mean, that's, that's clearly the, the, the main sense that most people have. But there's whole part of your brain that's just kind of focused on, on reading facial cues. So, you know, when we're designing the next version of Quest, where the VR headset, a big focus for us is face tracking and basically eye tracking so you can make eye contact, which again, isn't really something that you can do over a video conference.
我是说，我们很注重视觉方面，对吧？因此，与其他动物相比，大多数人的主要感官显然是视觉。但你的大脑中有一个完全专注于读取面部线索的部分。因此，当我们设计下一版本的Quest VR耳机时，我们的主要关注点是面部跟踪和眼部跟踪，这样你就可以进行眼神交流了。这确实是在视频会议中做不到的事情。
It's sort of amazing how much, how far video conferencing has gotten without the ability to make eye contact, right? It's sort of a bizarre thing if you think about it. You're like looking at someone's face, you know, sometimes for, you know, an hour when you're in a meeting and like, you looking at their eyes to them doesn't look like you're looking at their eyes. So it's a, you're always looking at me pass each other.
有点令人惊讶啊，视频会议在没有眼神接触的情况下发展得这么远，对吧？如果你想想，这真是一件很奇怪的事情。你盯着别人的脸看，有时候在开会时可能要盯上一个小时，但是对方看你的时候，并不觉得你在看他们的眼睛，所以你们的目光似乎总是擦肩而过。
I guess, yeah, I guess you're right. You're not sending that signal. Well, you're trying to, right? You're trying to. Like a lot of times, I mean, I, or at least I find myself, I'm trying to look into the other person's eyes, but they don't feel like you're looking to their eyes.
我想，是的，我想你是对的。你没有传达那种信号。嗯，你是在尝试，对吧？你是在努力的。很多时候，我意味着，至少我发现自己，我正在尝试看着对方的眼睛，但他们感觉不到你正在看着他们的眼睛。
Yeah. So then the question is, all right. And I supposed to look at the camera so that way you can, you know, have a, have a sensation that I'm looking at you. I think that that's an interesting question. And then, you know, with VR, um, today, even without eye tracking and knowing what your eyes are actually looking at, you can fake it reasonably well, right? So you can look at like where the head poses and if it looks like I'm kind of looking in your general direction, then you can sort of assume that maybe there's some eye contact and intended and you can do it in a way where it's okay, maybe not.
嗯。那么问题是，我应该看着摄像头，这样你就可以感觉到我在看着你。我认为这是一个有趣的问题。随着VR的发展，即使没有眼球追踪和知道你真正注视的地方，你也可以相当逼真地假装这样做对吧？所以你可以看着头部的姿势，如果看起来我是朝着你的大方向看，那么你可以假设可能有一些眼神交流，并且你可以这样做，也可以不做。
It's like a, maybe it's not a, you know, fixated stare, but, um, but it's somewhat natural. But once you have actual eye tracking, you can, you can do it for real. And I think that's really important stuff.
这就像是一种，或许不是，你知道的那种专注凝视，但是还是有点自然的。但是一旦你有了真正的眼睛追踪技术，你就可以真正做到这一点。我认为这真的非常重要。
So when I think about Meta's contribution to this field, I have to say it's not clear to me that any of the other companies that are focused on, on the metaverse or on virtual and augmented reality are going to prioritize putting these features in the hardware because like everything they're trade-offs, right?
当我考虑到Meta对这个领域的贡献时，我必须说我不清楚那些专注于元宇宙或虚拟和增强现实的其他公司是否会优先考虑在硬件中加入这些功能，因为像所有事情一样，存在权衡取舍。
I mean, they, it adds, it adds some weight to the device. Maybe it adds some thickness. You could totally see another company taking the approach of, let's just make the lightest and thinnest thing possible. But, you know, I want us to design the most human thing possible, um, that creates the richest sense of presence and, um, because so much of, of human, um, emotion and expression comes from these like micro movements.
我是说，他们，它会增加设备的重量。也许会增加一些厚度。你可以完全看到另一家公司采取的方法是，让我们做出最轻最薄的东西。但是，你知道的，我希望我们设计出最人性化的东西，呃，能够创造出最丰富的存在感，因为人类的许多情感和表达来自于这些微小的动作。
If I like to move my eyebrow, you know, a millimeter, you will notice and it, that like means something. Um, so the fact that we're losing these signals, um, and a lot of communication, I think, is, is a loss. And it's, so it's not like, okay, there's one feature and you add this, then it, all of a sudden, is going to feel like we have real presence. You can sort of look at how the, the human brain works and how we, we express and, and kind of read emotions and you can just build a roadmap of, of that, you know, of just, what are the most important things to try to unlock over a five to ten year period and just try to make the experience more and more human and social.
如果我喜欢动我的眉毛，哦，只有一毫米，你会注意到它，这个动作代表着什么。所以，我们失去了这些信号，很多的沟通方式也随之消失了。我认为这是一种损失。并不是说，只加入一个特点，就能让我们有真正的存在感。你可以看一下人类的大脑如何运作，以及我们如何表达和读取情感，并制定一份路线图，尝试在五到十年的时间里解锁最重要的事情，努力让体验越来越像真正的人类社交。
When do you think would be, uh, a moment, like a singularity moment for the metaverse where there's a lot of ways to ask this question, but, you know, people will have many or most of their meaningful experiences in the metaverse versus the real world.
你认为会在什么时候出现一个特殊的时刻，就像是宇宙的奇点一样，到那个时候，人们会在元宇宙里度过大部分或全部有意义的经历，而不是在真实世界中。有很多方式来问这个问题，但你懂的。
And actually it's interesting to think about the fact that a lot of people are having the most important moments of their life happen in the digital sphere, especially in Audra and COVID, you know, like even falling in love or meeting friends or getting excited about stuff that is happening on the 2D digital plane.
实际上，思考这件事是有趣的，因为很多人的人生中最重要的时刻都在数字领域发生，尤其是在奥德拉和 COVID 的情况下。比如，甚至恋爱、见朋友或对发生在 2D 数字平面上的事情感到兴奋。
When do you think the metaverse will provide those experiences for a large number like a, yeah, I think it's a really good question. There was someone, you know, I read this piece that frame this says, a lot of people think that the metaverse is about a place, but one definition of this is it's about a time when basically immersive digital worlds become the primary way that we, that we live our lives and spend our time.
你认为元宇宙什么时候能够为大量人提供这些体验，嗯，我觉得这是一个非常好的问题。有人说，我读到一篇文章，提出说，很多人认为元宇宙关乎一个地方，但其定义之一是，它关乎一个时代，一个时代的人们基本上通过沉浸式数字化世界来生活和度过时间。
I think that that's a reasonable construct. And from that perspective, you know, I think you also just want to look at this as a continuation because it's not like, okay, we are building digital worlds, but we don't have that today. I think, you know, you and I probably already live a very large part of our life in digital worlds. They're just not 3D immersive virtual reality, but you know, I do a lot of meetings over video or I spend a lot of time writing things over email or WhatsApp or whatever.
我认为这是个合理的构想。从这个角度看，你知道，我认为你也应该把这看作是一个延续，因为这不是说我们正在建造数字世界，但我们今天没有这个。我想，你和我可能已经在数字世界中度过了很大一部分我们的生活，只是这不是3D沉浸式虚拟现实，但你知道，我经常通过视频参加会议，或者花很多时间写邮件或使用WhatsApp等。
So what is it going to take to get there for kind of the immersive presence version of this, which I think is what you're asking? And for that, I think that there's just a bunch of different use cases, right? And I think when you're building technology, I think you're, a lot of it is just you're managing this duality where on the one hand, you want to build these elegant things that can scale and, you know, have billions of people use them and get value from them. And then on the other hand, you're fighting this kind of ground game where it's just, there are just a lot of different use cases and people do different things and like you want to be able to unlock them.
那么，想要实现这种身临其境式的版本，需要怎样才能达到呢？我想这就涉及到很多不同的应用场景。当你在开发技术的时候，你要同时处理两种不同的情况：一方面，你想要构建精妙的、可扩展的产品，让数十亿人使用并从中获取价值；另一方面，你需要应对各种不同的使用情况和需求，希望能够满足它们。
The first ones that we basically went after were gaming with Quest and social experiences. And this is, you know, it goes back to when we started working on virtual reality. My theory at the time was basically, people thought about it as gaming, but if you look at all computing platforms up to that point, you know, gaming is a huge part. It was a huge part of PCs. It was a huge part of mobile, but it was also very decentralized, right? There wasn't, you know, for the most part, you know, one or two gaming companies. There were a lot of gaming companies and gaming is somewhat hit-space. And we're getting some games that are that have more longevity, but, but it put in general, you know, there were a lot of a lot of different games out there.
我们最开始追求的是与Quest和社交体验有关的游戏。这一点可以追溯到我们开始研究虚拟现实的时候。我当时的理论是，人们认为虚拟现实主要是用于游戏，但如果你看看到那个时候所有的计算平台，你就会发现，游戏是其中一个非常重要的部分。它在个人电脑上很重要，在移动设备上也很重要，但它也非常分散，对吧？大部分情况下，没有一个或两个游戏公司。有很多游戏公司，游戏也有些过时。我们有一些更耐玩的游戏，但总的来说，有很多不同的游戏存在。
But on PC and, and on mobile, the companies that focused on communication and social interaction, there tended to be a smaller number of those and that ended up being just as important of a thing as all of the games that you did combined.
在电脑和移动设备上，专注于通讯和社交互动的公司往往数量较少，但这同样重要，甚至比所有游戏加在一起还要重要。
I think productivity is another area. That's obviously something that we've historically been less focused on, but I think it's going to be really important.
我认为提高生产率是另一个领域。这显然不是我们历史上关注的重点，但我认为这将非常重要。
Was work room, or give me productivity in the collaborative aspect of it?
这个房间是工作室吗？或者说它能在协作方面增强我的生产力吗？
Yeah, I think that there's a work room aspect of this, like a meeting aspect, and then I think that there's like a, you know, word, Excel, you know, productivity. You're like, you're working or coding or what, what knowledge work, right? It's as opposed to just, to just meetings.
嗯，我觉得这有一个工作室的方面，像是开会方面，然后我认为还有像是使用Word、Excel等提升工作效率的方面。就是说，你会有工作、编程或其他知识型的工作，而不仅仅是开会。
So you can kind of go through all these different use cases, you know, gaming I think we're well on our way. Social, I think, we're just the kind of pre-eminent company that focuses on this. And I think that that's already on quest becoming the, you know, if you look at the list of what are the top apps, you know, social apps are already, you know, number one, two, three. So that's kind of becoming a critical thing.
所以你可以试着应用游戏等各种不同的情况。对于社交方面，我认为我们是领先的公司。如果你看一下排名前几的应用程序，社交应用程序已经排名前三。这已经成为一个非常关键的事情了。而在Quest上，我认为这种趋势正在加速。
But I don't know, I would imagine for someone like you, it'll be, you know, until we get, you know, a lot of the work things dialed in, right? And when this is just like much more adopted and, and clearly better than Zoom for VC, when, you know, if you're doing your, your coding or your writing or whatever it is, in VR, which it's not that far off to imagine that because it's pretty soon, you're just going to be able to have a screen that's bigger than, you know, it'll be your ideal setup and you can bring it with you and put it on anywhere and have your, your kind of ideal workstation.
但我不知道，我想对于像你这样的人来说，直到我们把许多工作事项都落实了，这可能还需要一段时间，对吧？当这比Zoom更被广泛采用，且明显更好用于VC时，你如果在VR中进行编码、写作或其他任何事情的时候，你可以拥有一个比现在更大的屏幕，这并不太难想象，因为这很快就会实现。你只需携带一个理想的工作站放在任何地方就行了。
So I think that there are a few things to work out on that. But I don't think that that's more than, you know, five years off. And then you'll get a bunch of other things that aren't even possible or you don't even think about using a phone or PC for today, like fitness, right? So I mean, I know that you're, you know, we were talking before about how you're, you're into running and like I'm really into, you know, a lot of things around fitness as well, you know, different things in different places.
我认为还有一些问题需要解决。但我认为不超过五年就能解决。然后，你会得到一堆其他的东西，这些是今天在手机或电脑上无法实现或你甚至不会考虑使用这些设备，比如健身。我知道你之前说你喜欢跑步，我也非常喜欢健身，不同的地方有不同的锻炼方式。
I got really into hydrofoiling recently and nice. Um, I saw video surfing and, um, I used to fence competitively. I like run. And you were saying that you were thinking about trying different martial arts and I tried to trick you and convince you into doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or you actually mentioned that that was one you're curious about. And I did. Is that a trick? Yeah. I don't know. We're in the metaverse now. Yeah. No, I took that seriously. I thought that that was a, that was a real, uh, suggestion.
最近我对水翼飞行非常着迷，太棒了。嗯，我看过冲浪视频，嗯，我曾经参加过击剑比赛。我喜欢跑步。你说你正在考虑尝试不同的武术，我试图愚弄你并说服你去做巴西柔术，还记得你提到过这是你好奇的一种武术。我试了一下，是不是有点小花招？是的。我不知道，我们现在在元宇宙里。是的，不，我是认真的。我认为那是一个真正的建议。
That would be an amazing chance if we ever step on the mat together and just like roll around. I'll show you some moves. Give me a year to train and, and then, and then we just like rock, you know, you've seen Rocky for with a Russian faces off the American. I'm the Russian in this picture. And then you're the Rocky, the underdog that gets to it to win the idea of me as Rocky and like fighting is, um, if he dies, he dies. Sorry. It's had to. I mean, anyway, yeah.
如果我们有机会一起踏上垫子，然后像翻滚一样，那将是一次惊人的机会。我会给你展示一些招数。给我一年的时间来训练，然后我们就可以像洛奇一样，你知道的，你已经看过“洛奇”这部电影中俄罗斯与美国的对决了。在这个场景中，我是俄罗斯人。之后你就是洛奇，这个被低估的选手，但最终赢得了胜利。对于我来说，像洛奇那样搏斗的想法是，“他死了，他死了”。抱歉，这太过过分了。总之，是这样的。
But I mean, a lot of aspects of fitness, you know, I don't know if you've, if you've tried super natural on quest or,
但是我是指健身的许多方面，你知道吗，我不知道你是否尝试过在奎斯特上运行超自然吗？
so first of all, can I just comment on the fact every time I played around with quest two, I just, I get giddy every time I step into virtual reality. So you mentioned productivity on those kinds of things. That's definitely something I'm excited about. But really, I just love the possibilities of stepping into that world. It's, uh, maybe it's the introverted me, but it just feels like the most convenient way to travel into worlds, into worlds that are similar to the real world or totally different to it's like Alice in Wonderland, just try out crazy stuff, the possibilities and this.
首先，我想说的是每次我玩 Quest 2 的时候，我都会感到兴奋，每次进入虚拟现实都会让我心跳加速。你提到了生产力和这些方面，这绝对是我感到兴奋的一点。但真的，我喜欢踏入这个世界的可能性。也许这是因为我内向，但它感觉就像最方便的旅行方式，踏进那些世界，这些世界可能与现实世界相似，也可能完全不同，就像《爱丽丝梦游仙境》一样，尝试疯狂的事情，无限可能。
And I just, I personally, and just love get excited for stepping in those virtual worlds. I'm, so I'm a huge fan in terms of the, uh, the productivity as a program. I spend most of my day programming. That's, that's really interesting also. But then you have to develop the right IDs. You have to develop. Yeah. Like the, there has to be a threshold where a large amount of the program community moves there. But the collaborative aspects that are possible in terms of meetings, in terms of the, um, when, when two coders are working together, uh, I mean, that, the possibility is there is super, super exciting.
我个人很喜欢体验虚拟世界，并且非常兴奋。就我而言，开发程序的生产力也是我非常推崇的。我的大多数时间都花在编程上，这也非常有趣。但是，需要开发正确的意图或想法才能成功。还需要一个阈值，许多程序开发者要前往那里。然而，在会议、合作方面，当两个开发者一起工作时，灵感和可能性都是无限的，这是非常令人兴奋的。
I think that in building this, we sort of need to balance. There are going to be some new things that you just couldn't do before. And those are going to be the amazing experiences, so teleporting to any place, right, whether it's a real place or, um, something that people made. Um, and I mean, some of the experiences around how we can build stuff in new ways where, you know, a lot of the stuff that, you know, when I'm coding stuff, it's a cart, you code it and then you build it and then you see it afterwards. But increasingly, it's going to be possible to, you know, you're in a world and you're building the world as you are in it and, and kind of manipulating it.
我认为，在构建这个项目时，我们需要取得平衡。会有一些以前无法实现的全新的东西。这些将是惊人的体验，比如无论是真实世界还是人造世界，都能瞬间传送到任何地方。此外，我们还能通过新的构建方式建造出全新的东西。以前，很多东西都是先编码，然后再构建，最后才能看到成果。但是越来越多的可能会在你进行世界构建时不断完善，同时不断地将其操纵。
You know, one of the things that we showed at our inside the lab, um, for recent artificial intelligence progress is this builder bot program where now you are, you can just talk to it and say, Hey, okay, I'm in this world.. I like put, put some trees over there and it'll do that and like, all right, put, put some bottles of water on, um, you know, on, on our, our picnic blanket and it'll do that and you're in the world. And it's, I think there are going to be new paradigms for coding.
你知道，在我们实验室里展示的最近的人工智能进展之一是 Builder Bot 程序，现在你可以直接与它交流，说：“嗨，我在这个世界里...我喜欢在那里放些树”，然后它就会实现你的要求，或者你可以告诉它：“好的，在我们野餐毯上放些水瓶”，它也会帮你实现。这种技术是我认为会促成编程的新范式。
So yeah, there, there are going to be some things that I think are just pretty amazing, especially the first few times that you do them that you're like, whoa, like I've never had an experience like this. But most of your life, I would imagine is not doing things that are amazing for the first time.
所以啊，有些事情我认为真的很神奇，特别是第一次做的时候，你会感到哇，我从来没有过这样的体验。但我想你大部分的生活并不是第一次做令人惊奇的事情。
A lot of this in terms of, I mean, just answering your question from before around what is it going to take before you're spending most of your time in this? Well, first of all, let me just say it as an aside, the goal isn't to have people spend a lot more time in computing. I'm asking you to make it yourself. Yeah, it's going to be a lot of time. So I spend all my time in the system. Yeah, it's to make computing more, more natural, but it is.
很多人对于这个问题，我的意思是，你之前问什么才能让你大部分时间都用在这上面，其实要说，首先，让我说一句，我们的目标并不是让人们花更多时间在计算机上。我是在让你自己成为计算机的一部分。是的，这可能需要很多时间。我自己就是常常在系统里度过我的时间。是为了使计算机更加自然，但实际上是这样的。
But I think it'll, you will, you will spend more, most of your computing time in this when it does the things that you use computing for somewhat better. So you know, maybe having your perfect workstation is a 5% improvement on your coding productivity, it maybe it's not like a, you know, completely new, new thing. But I mean, look, if I could increase the productivity of every engineer in meta by 5%, you know, we'd buy those devices for everyone. And I imagine a lot of other companies would too. And that's how you start getting to the scale that I think makes this rival some of the bigger computing platforms that exist today.
我认为，当这个设备把您所需的计算业务处理得更好时，您将会更多地在这里花费大部分的计算时间。所以，也许拥有一个完美的工作站只能使您的编码生产力提高5％，它可能并不像完全新的事物那样。但是，如果我能让meta的每个工程师的生产力提高5％，您知道，我们会为每个人购买这些设备。我想很多其他公司也会这样做。这就是您开始进入我认为使这个系统能够与现今存在的一些更大型的计算平台媲美的规模的方法。
Let me ask you about identity. We talked about the avatar. How do you see identity in the metaverse? Should the avatar be tied to your identity or can I be anything in the metaverse? Like can I, be whatever the heck I want? Can I even be a troll? So there's, there's a, there's a exciting, freeing possibilities and there's the darker possibilities too.
让我问一下你关于身份的问题。我们谈到了头像。你如何看待元宇宙中的身份？头像应该与你的身份挂钩，还是我可以在元宇宙中成为任何人？就像我可以成为任何我想要的东西一样？我甚至可以成为一个巨魔吗？所以说，有兴奋和自由的可能性，也有更黑暗的可能性。
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's going to be a range, right? So we're working on, for expression and avatars, on one end of the spectrum are kind of expressive and cartoonish avatars. And then on the other end of the spectrum are photo realistic avatars. And I just think the reality is that there are going to be different use cases for different things. And I guess there's another axis.
是啊，我的意思是，我认为会有不同的选择范围，对吧？所以我们正在为表情和头像设计工作。在这个范围的一端是非常具有表现力和卡通的头像，而在另一端是逼真的照片头像。我认为现实情况是，不同的用途需要不同的选择。我想还有另一个维度。
So if you're going from photo realistic to expressive, there's also like representing you directly versus like some fantasy identity. And I think that there are going to be things on, on all ends of that spectrum too, right? So you'll want photo like in some experience, you might want to be like a photo realistic dragon, right, or, or, you know, if I'm playing onward or just this military simulator game, you know, it's, you know, I think getting to be more photo realistic as a soldier in that could enhance the experience.
如果你从照片般逼真的画风转向表现主义，那么也可以像直接代表你自己，也可以想要体验一些幻想角色。我认为在整个光谱的两端都会有这样的需求。比如，在某些场景下，你可能想成为一个逼真的龙，而在玩《前进》或军事模拟游戏时，将士兵角色更加逼真也会增强体验。
There are times when I'm hanging out with friends where I want them to, you know, know it's me. So kind of cartoon or, or, or expressive version of me is good. But there are also experiences like, you know, VR chat does this well today where a lot of the experience is kind of dressing up and wearing a fantastical avatar that's almost like a meme or is humorous. So you, you come into an experience and it's almost like you have like a built-in icebreaker because like you, you see people and you're just like, all right, I, I, like I'm cracking up at what you're wearing because that's funny. And it's just like, where'd you get that? Or oh, you made that? That's, you know, it's, it's awesome.
有时候我和朋友一起玩的时候，我希望他们能够认出我来。所以，一个卡通或者富有表现力的版本就很好。但是像VR聊天这样的体验也很不错，因为在这个平台上，很多人都喜欢打扮自己成为一个几乎像一个梗或者幽默的虚拟角色。这样你就可以进入一个体验，就像你已经有了一个很好的破冰神器，因为你可以看到别人，然后就可以和他们打成一片，因为你会觉得他们的打扮很搞笑。然后你就会问，哇，你从哪儿得到的？或者，哦，你做的吗？这样真的很棒。
Whereas, you know, okay, if, if you're going into a, into a work meeting, maybe a photo realistic version of your real self is, is going to be the most appropriate thing for that. So I think the reality is there aren't going to be, there is, it's not just going to be one thing.
嗯，你知道，好吧，如果你要参加工作会议，也许一个真实的照片版本会更加适合。因此，我认为现实情况并不是只有一个选择。
You know, my, my own sense of kind of how you want to express identity online has sort of evolved over time in that, you know, early days in Facebook, I thought, okay, people are going to have one identity. And now I think that's clearly not going to be the case. I think you're going to have all these different things and, and there's utility and being able to do different things.
你知道的，我个人对于如何在网上表达身份的看法，在很长一段时间内都在不断演变。在 Facebook 刚开始时，我认为人们只需要一个身份。但现在我清楚地知道，这不可能实现。我认为，人们需要多种身份去做不同的事情，这是非常有用的。
So some of the technical challenges that I'm really interested in around it are, how do you build the software to allow people to seamlessly go between them? So say, so you could view them as just completely discrete points on a spectrum. But let's, let's talk about the metaverse economy for a second.
我真正感兴趣的一些技术挑战是，如何构建软件，使人们可以无缝地在它们之间切换？你可以将它们视为完全离散的光谱点。但是，让我们聊一下元宇宙经济。
Let's say I buy a digital shirt for my photo realistic avatar, which by the way, I think at the time where we're spending a lot of time in the metaverse doing a lot of our work meetings in the metaverse and et cetera, I would imagine that the economy around virtual clothing as an example is going to be quite as big.
假设我为我的照片逼真的虚拟形象购买了一件数字衬衫。顺便提一下，在我们花很多时间在元宇宙中参加各种工作会议等活动的时代，我想象虚拟服装的经济规模将会相当庞大。
Well, I wouldn't I spend almost as much money in investing in my, my appearance or expression for my photo realistic avatar for meetings as I would for the whatever I'm going to wear in my video chat.
嗯，我不会在我的视频会议中穿着上花费很多钱，而是会花同样多的钱在为我的照片真实化头像的外表或表达上。
But the question is, okay, so you, let's see, buy some shirt for your photo realistic avatar, wouldn't it be cool if there was a way to basically translate that into a more expressive thing for your kind of cartoonish or expressive avatar?
问题是这样的，如果你为你的逼真人物形象购买了一件衬衫，那么如果有一种方式能够将其转化为更具表现力的卡通形象，是不是很酷呢？
And there are multiple ways to do that. You can view them as two discrete points and, okay, maybe, you know, if a designer sells one thing, then it actually comes in a pack and there's two and you can use either one on that.
有很多方法可以实现这一点。你可以把它们看成两个独立的点，好的，也许，你知道，如果一个设计师卖一件东西，那它实际上是成双出售的，你可以在其中使用任何一个。
But I actually think the stuff might exist more as a spectrum in the future. And that's what I do think the direction on some of the AI advances that is happening to be able to, especially stuff around like style transfer, being able to take, you know, a piece of art or express something and say, okay, paint me, you know, this photo in the style of go-gett or, you know, whoever it is that you're interested in, you know, take this shirt and put it in the style of what I've designed for my expressive avatar.
但我认为未来这些东西可能更像一个光谱存在。 我觉得一些人工智能方面的进展，尤其是与样式转换等类似的东西，可以让人们能够取一件艺术品或表达某种东西，然后说：“好的，用go-gett（或是你感兴趣的其他艺术家）的风格为我画这张照片，或是按照我为我的表情化化身设计的样式为这件衬衫涂色。”
I'm not going to be pretty compelling. And so the fashion, you might be buying like a generator or like a closet that generates a style and then like with the gowns, they'll be able to infinitely generate outfits there by making it.
我不会特别有吸引力，所以时尚方面，你可能会购买类似发电机或生成风格的衣橱，然后用礼服来无限生成套装。
So the reason I wear the same thing all the time is it's like choice you've talked about, you've talked about the same thing. But now you don't even have to choose your closet generates your outfit for you every time.
那么我总是穿同样的衣服的理由是，就像你所谈到的选择，你谈论的是同样的事情。但现在你甚至不需要选择，你的衣柜每次都可以自动生成衣服。
And so you have to live without the generates. I mean, you could do that, although I think that that's, I think some people will, but I think like, I think there's going to be a huge aspect of just people doing creative commerce here.
所以你必须没有发电机地生活。我的意思是，虽然我认为有些人会这么做，但我认为这可能是不可避免的。我认为这里将有一个巨大的人们进行创意商业的方面。
So I think that there is going to be a big market around people designing digital clothing. But the question is, if you're designing digital clothing, do you need to design, if you're the designer, do you need to make it for each kind of specific discrete point along a spectrum or you just designing it for kind of a photo realistic case or an expressive case or can you design one and have it translate across these things?
我认为未来有很大的市场是围绕数字服装设计的。但问题是，如果你是设计师，当你设计数字服装时，你是否需要为频谱上的每个具体点设计，或者你只是为照片般逼真或表现力独特的情况设计，或者你可否设计一种服装，让它适用于以上所有情况？
If I buy a style from a designer who I care about and now I'm a dragon, is there a way to morph that so it goes on the dragon in a way that makes sense. And that I think is an interesting AI problem because you're probably not going to make it so that designers have to go design for all those things.
如果我从一个我关心的设计师那里购买了一种风格，现在我变成了一条龙，是否有一种方法可以将它转换成一种有意义的方式放在龙身上。我认为这是一个有趣的人工智能问题，因为你可能不会让设计师为所有这些东西去设计。
But the more useful the digital content is that you buy in a lot of uses and a lot of use cases, the more that economy will just explode. I mean, that's a lot of what all of the, you know, we were joking about NFTs before, but I think a lot of the promise here is that if the digital goods that you buy are not just tied to one platform or one use case, they end up being more valuable, which means that people are more willing and more likely to invest in them and that just spurs the whole economy.
但是，您购买的数字内容在许多用途和使用场景中越有用，整个经济系统就会爆炸性增长。我的意思是，我们之前谈到的NFTs可能是开启这一承诺的关键。如果您购买的数字货物不仅仅与一个平台或一个用例相关联，而是可以在多个地方使用，那么它们就会变得更有价值。这意味着人们更愿意和更有可能在这些数字货物上投资，这也会刺激整个经济的发展。
But the question is, that's a fascinating positive aspect, but the potential negative aspect is that you can have people concealing their identity in order to troll or even not people, bots.
但问题是，这是一个迷人的积极方面，但潜在的负面方面是，你可能会有人隐瞒自己的身份以便恶意攻击甚至不是真人，而是机器人。
So how do you know in the metaverse that you're talking to a real human or an AI or a well intentioned human? Is that something you think about, something you're concerned about?
那么，在元宇宙中，你如何知道你正在与真人、人工智能或有善意的人交谈？这是你考虑的问题吗？这是你担心的事情吗？
Well, let's break that down into a few different cases. I mean, because knowing that you're talking to someone who has good intentions is something that I think is not even solved in pretty much anywhere.
嗯，让我们将这个问题分解成几种不同的情况。我的意思是，因为知道你正在与一个有好意的人交谈，我认为这是一个在几乎任何地方都没有得到解决的问题。
But I mean, if you're talking to someone who's a dragon, I think it's pretty clear that they're not representing themselves as a person.
但我的意思是，如果你在和一只龙说话，我想很明显地，他们不是代表自己作为一个人。
I think probably the most pernicious thing that you want to solve for is, I think probably one of the scariest ones is, how do you make sure that someone isn't impersonating you?
我认为，您最想解决的可能是最有害的问题之一，我认为最可怕的问题之一是，如何确保没有人在冒充您？
Right. So you like, okay, you're in a future version of this conversation. And we have photo realistic avatars and we're doing this in work rooms or whatever the future version of that is. And someone walks in who looks like me.
好的。所以你喜欢，没问题，你在这个会话的未来版本里。我们有真实逼真的头像，我们在办公室或其他未来版本的那种地方进行这个会话。突然，有个人走进来，看起来像我。
How do you know that that's me? And one of the things that we're thinking about is, you know, it's this, it's still a pretty big AI project to be able to generate photo realistic avatars that basically can like, they work like these codecs of you.
你怎么知道那是我？我们正在思考的一个问题是，要能够生成类似于“编解码器”的照片逼真的头像，这仍然是一个相当大的人工智能项目。
Right. So you kind of have a map from your, your headset, whatever sensors, what your body's actually doing and it takes the model and it kind of displays it in VR.
好的，所以你可以从你的耳机、传感器等获取身体动作的地图，然后把它与模型结合在一起，在虚拟现实中进行显示。
But there's a question which is, should there be some sort of biometric security so that like when I put on my VR headset or I'm going to, you know, go use that avatar, I need to first prove that I am that.. And I think you probably are going to want something like that.
有一个问题，那就是是否应该有某种生物识别安全措施，这样当我戴上我的VR头盔或者我要去使用那个虚拟形象时，我需要先证明我是那个人。我认为你可能会需要这样的措施。
So, so that's, you know, as we're developing these technologies, we're also thinking about the security for things like that because, you know, people aren't going to want to be impersonated. That's a, that's a huge security issue. Um, then you just get the question of people hiding behind fake accounts to do malicious things, which is not going to be unique to the metaverse, although, you know, certainly in a environment where it's more immersive and you have more of a sense of presence, it could be more painful, more painful, but this is obviously something that we've just dealt with for years in social media and the internet more broadly.
那么，就像我们正在开发这些技术一样，我们也在考虑像这样的安全问题，因为你知道，人们不会想要被冒名顶替。这是一个巨大的安全问题。然后你会遇到人们隐藏在虚假账户中做恶意事情的问题，这不仅限于元宇宙，虽然在更沉浸和更存在感的环境中可能会更痛苦，但这显然是我们多年来在社交媒体和互联网等更广泛领域经历的问题。
And there, I think, um, there have been a bunch of tactics that, that I think, um, we've just evolved to, you know, we've built up these different AI systems to basically get a sense of, is this account behaving in the way that a person would?
嗯，我认为有许多策略，我们已经发展出了不同的AI系统来获得一个人是否在使用这个账户的感觉。
And it turns out, you know, so in all of the work that we've done, um, around, you know, we call it community integrity and it's basically like policing harmful content and trying to figure out where to draw the line. And there are all these like really hard and philosophical questions around like, where do you draw the line on some of this stuff?
实际上，在我们所做的所有工作中，我们称之为社区完整性，主要是警察有害内容并试图找出划分界线在哪里。这些困难的哲学性问题存在，例如在一些问题上应该画什么线？
And the thing that I, I've kind of found the most effective is as much as possible trying to figure out who are the inauthentic accounts or where the accounts that are behaving in an overall harmful way at the account level, rather than trying to get into like policing what they're saying, right, which I think the metaverse is going to be even harder, um, because that, the metaverse, I think, will have more properties of, um, it's almost more like a phone call, right, or like, or you're, you know, it's, it's not like I post a piece of content and is that piece of content good or bad.
我发现最有效的方法是尽可能弄清楚哪些是不真实的账户，或者哪些账户在总体上表现得有害，在账户级别上，而不是试图管制他们说些什么。我认为，元宇宙要更难一些，因为元宇宙将有更多像电话那样的属性，或者说你正在进行某种通讯，这不像我发布一条内容，那条内容是好的还是不好的。
Um, so I think more of this stuff will have to be done at the level of, um, of the account. But this is the area where, you know, between the, the kind of, um, you know, counterintelligence teams that we built up inside the company and like years of building, um, just different AI systems to basically detect what is a real account and what is and I'm not saying we're perfect. But like, this is an area where I just think we are like years ahead of basically anyone else in the, in the industry in terms of having, um, uh, built those capabilities.
嗯，我认为这方面的工作需要在账户层面上完成更多的工作。但这是我们内部的反情报小组和多年建立不同的AI系统，以基本上检测什么是真实的账户和什么是假的，我们在这个领域已经走在了行业中的任何人前面多年，我不是说我们是完美的，但这是一个我们在这个领域已经领先于其他任何行业中的人的能力。
And I think that that just is going to be incredibly important for this next wave of things. And like you said, on the technical level on a philosophical level, it's an incredibly difficult problem to solve.
我认为这将非常重要，对于下一个浪潮的发展。正如你所说，在技术水平上和哲学层面上，这是一个难以解决的难题。
Uh, by the way, I would probably like to open source my avatar so that it could be like millions of Lex's walking on just like an army like Agent Smith. Agent Smith, yeah, exactly.
噢，顺便说一下，我可能会开源我的头像，这样就像数百万个Lex一样行走，就像一个军队一样，就像"史密斯特工"一样。"史密斯特工"，对，就是那样。
Uh, so the, uh, the unity ML folks built a copy of me and they sent it to me. So there's a, there's a person running around and I just been doing reinforcement learning on it. And I'm gonna release it now because, you know, just to have sort of like thousands of Lex's doing reinforcement learning. So they fall over naturally. They have to learn how to like walk around and stuff.
啊，那个 Unity ML 的人们复制了一个我给我。现在就有一个人在我周围跑来跑去，我一直在对它进行增强学习。而且我现在要发布它，因为想要让数千个像我这样的人进行增强学习，看看他们自然地摔倒，然后学会如何走路等等。
So I love that idea of this tension between biometric security. You want to have one identity, but then certain avatars you might have to have many. Um, I don't know which is better security sort of, uh, flooding the world with Lex's and thereby achieving security or really being protected over your identity.
所以我喜欢这种生物测定安全之间的张力的想法。你希望拥有一个身份，但是某些化身可能需要有很多。嗯，我不知道哪种是更好的安全性，泛滥世界，拥有很多 Lex 来实现安全还是真正保护你的身份。
I had to ask a security question actually. Well, how does flooding the world with Lex's help me know in our conversation that I'm talking to the real Lex? I completely destroy the trust in all my relationships then, right? If I flood, because then it's, yeah, that, um, I think that one's not going to work that well for you. It's not going to work that for the original.
实际上，我不得不问一个安全问题。好吧，如果我把世界淹没在Lex的信息中，那么如何让我知道在我们的对话中我正在与真正的Lex 交谈？那么我就完全破坏了我所有关系中的信任，是吧？如果我淹没了，因为那样，嗯，那个，我认为那个对你来说不会很有效。它对原版也不会很有效。
Well, it probably fits some things like if you're a public figure and you're trying to have, you know, a bunch of, if you're trying to show up in a bunch of different places in the future, you'll be able to do that in the metaverse. Um, so that kind of replication, I think will be useful. But I, I do think you're going to want a notion of like, I am talking to the real one. Yeah.
嗯，这可能适用于某些情况，比如你是一位公众人物，你想要在未来出现在许多不同的地方，你可以在元宇宙中实现这一点。那种复制，我认为会有用。但我认为你还是需要一个概念，就是我正在与真正的人交谈。是的。
Yeah, especially if the fake ones start out performing you in all your private relationships and then you're left behind, I mean, that's, that's a serious concern I have with clones. Again, the things I think about.
是的，特别是如果假的人开始在你的所有私人关系中表现得比你更好，然后你就会被落下，我是说，这是我对克隆的一个严重关注。又是我在想的事情。
Okay. So I recently got, uh, I use QNAP NAS storage. So just storage for, for video stuff and I recently got hacked. It's the first time for me with a, with ransomware. It's not me personally. It's all QNAP devices.
好的。所以我最近购买了QNAP NAS存储，用于存放视频资料。但是最近我遭受了黑客攻击，是第一次遇到勒索软件的攻击。这并不是个人的问题，而是所有使用QNAP设备的用户都会受到影响。
Uh, so the question that people have about is about security in general, um, because I was doing a lot of the right things in terms of security and nevertheless ransomware basically disabled my device.. Yeah. Is that something you think about? What are, where the different steps you could take to protect people's data on the security front?
嗯，人们关心的问题通常是关于总体安全性的，因为我在安全方面做了很多正确的事情，但勒索软件还是成功地使我的设备无法使用。是的，你会考虑这个问题吗？在安全防护方面，您可以采取哪些措施来保护人们的数据呢？
I think that there's different solutions for, in strategies where it makes sense to have stuff kind of put behind a fortress, right? So the centralized model versus, um, decentralizing. Then I think both have strengths and weaknesses. So I think anyone who says, okay, just decentralize everything that'll make it more secure.
我觉得在策略上，放置在堡垒后面的东西有不同的解决方案，对吧? 中央化模型与分散化模型都有优点和缺点。所以我认为任何人说：好吧，把一切分散化，那就会更安全。
I, I think that that's tough because, you know, I mean, the, the advantage of something like, you know, encryption is that, you know, we run the largest encrypted service in the world with WhatsApp. And you know, one of the first to roll out a multi-platform encryption, um, service and, and that's, you know, something that, I think it was a big advance for the industry.
我觉得这件事挺棘手的，因为你知道，加密这类东西的优点在于，我们运营着全球最大的加密服务——WhatsApp。我们也是第一个推出多平台加密服务的公司，这是一个对于行业来说重要的进步。
And one of the promises that we can basically make because of that, our company doesn't see, um, when you're sending an encrypted message, um, and to an encrypted message, what the content is of what you're, what you're sharing. So that way if someone hacks meta servers, um, they're not going to be able to access, you know, the WhatsApp message that, you know, you're sending to your friend. And that I think matters a lot to people because, um, obviously if someone is able to compromise a company's servers and that company has hundreds of millions or billions of people, then that's, that ends up being a very big deal.
因此，我们可以基本上承诺的一件事情是，我们的公司不会查看你发送的加密消息和接收的加密消息的内容。因此，如果有人黑客我们的元服务器，他们也无法访问你通过WhatsApp发送给朋友的消息。我认为这对人们非常重要，因为如果有人能够威胁到公司的服务器并且这个公司有数亿用户，那么这将会是一个非常大的问题。
The flip side of that is, okay, all the content is on your phone. Um, you know, are you following security best practices on your phone? If you lose your phone, all your content is gone. So that's an issue. You know, maybe you go back up your content from WhatsApp or, or some other service in, in an iCloud or something, but then you're just at Apple's whims about are they going to go turn over the government, the data to, you know, some government door or are they going to get hacked?
另一方面，好吧，所有的内容都在你的手机上。嗯，你知道吗，在你的手机上遵循安全最佳实践了吗？如果你丢了手机，你所有的内容都没了。所以这是个问题。你知道，也许你可以从WhatsApp或其他一些服务中备份你的内容，存储在iCloud或其他地方，但那么一来，你只需要看苹果公司的意愿，他们是否会将数据交给政府，或者他们是否会被黑客攻击。
So a lot of the time it is useful to have data in a centralized place too because then you can train systems that, um, they can just do much better personalization. I think that in a lot of cases, um, you know, centralized systems can, can offer, you know, especially if you're, if you're a, you know, serious company, you're, you're running the state of the art stuff and, um, and you have red teams attacking your, your own stuff and, um, and you're, you're putting out bounty programs and trying to attract some of the best hackers in the world to go break into your stuff all the time.
很多时候，在一个集中的位置拥有数据非常有用，因为这样你就可以训练系统了，它们可以更好地进行个性化服务。我认为在很多情况下，集中式系统可以提供很多优势，尤其是如果你是一个严肃的公司，你正在运行最先进的技术，并且你有红队攻击你自己的系统，你发布赏金计划，试图吸引一些世界上最好的黑客来一直入侵你的系统。
So any system is going to have security issues, but, um, but I think the best way forward is to basically try to be as aggressive and open about hardening the systems as possible, not trying to kind of hide and pretend that there aren't going to be issues, which I think is over time why, um, a lot of open source systems have gotten relatively more secure as because they're, they're open and, you know, it's not rather than pretending that there aren't going to be issues, just people surface them quicker. So I think you want to adopt that approach as a company and, and just constantly be hardening your, yourself trying to stay once that behead of the attackers. It's an, it's an inherently adversarial space.
任何系统都会存在安全问题，但是我认为最好的方法是尽可能积极和开放地加固系统，而不是试图隐藏并假装不会出问题。我认为这也是为什么许多开源系统随着时间的推移变得相对更加安全的原因，因为它们是开放的，而且人们不会假装不会出现问题，只是更快地表明了问题。所以我认为作为一家公司，你需要采用这种方法，并不断加强自己，试图保持在攻击者前面。这是一种固有的对抗空间。
Yeah. Right. I think it's an interesting security is interesting because of the different kind of threats that we've managed over the last five years. There are ones, um, we're basically adversaries keep on getting better and better. So trying to kind of interfere with, um, you know, security is certainly one area of this. If you have like nation states that are trying to, you know, interfere in elections or something, like they're kind of evolving their tactics, whereas on the other hand, I don't want to be too, too simplistic about it. But like if, um, you know, if someone is saying something hateful, people usually aren't getting smarter and smarter about how they say hateful things, right?
是的。我认为保安很有趣，因为我们在过去五年中已经面对了不同类型的威胁。有些威胁是由对手不断进步而产生的，因此在保安方面进行干预是必要的。如果有国家正在干涉选举或其他事情，他们的策略也在不断演变。另一方面，我不想过于简单化。但是如果有人说出一些令人憎恶的话，人们通常不会变得越来越聪明。
So, um, maybe there's some element of that, but it's a very small dynamic compared to, um, you know, how advanced attackers and, and some of these other places get over time. I believe most people are good. So they actually get better over time and not being less hateful because they realize it's not fun being hateful. That's at least the belief I have.
那么，嗯，可能有一些类似的情况存在，但与那些高级攻击者以及其他一些地方相比，这只是一个非常小的动态。我相信大多数人都是好的。他们随着时间的推移变得更好，不会因为他们意识到恶语伤人而变得更少有恶意。至少我是持这种信念的。
But first, bathroom break, sure. Okay. So we'll come back to AI, but let me ask some difficult questions now. Social dilemma is a popular documentary that raised concerns about the effects of social media on society. You responded with a point by a point of rebuttal titled, what the social dilemma gets wrong. People should read that.
好的，先去洗个手间，没问题。好的，我们会回到AI的话题，但是现在让我问一些困难的问题。《社交困境》是一部引起人们对社交媒体对社会影响担忧的流行纪录片。您回应了一个逐点驳斥的问题，名为《社交困境的错误点。人们应该阅读一下。
I would say the key point they make is because social media is funded by ads, algorithms want to maximize attention and engagement and an effective way to do so is to get people angry at each other, increase division and so on.
我觉得他们的关键论点就是，因为社交媒体是由广告资助的，所以算法想要最大化关注和互动，而实现这一目标的有效方法是让人们互相愤怒、增加分裂等。
Can you steal man their criticisms and arguments that they make in the documentary as a way to understand the concern and as a way to respond to it? Well, yeah, I think that's a good conversation to have.
你能够借鉴纪录片中其他人的批评和论据来理解他们的担忧，并作为回应的一种方式吗？嗯，是的，我认为这是一次很有意义的谈话。
I don't happen to agree with the conclusions and I think that they make a few assumptions that are just very big jumps that I don't think are reasonable to make. But I understand overall why people would be concerned that our business model and ads in general, we do make more money as people use the service more in general.
我不完全同意结论，并且我认为它们有一些假设太过草率，我认为不应该轻易做出这样的假设。但是我可以理解人们为什么会担心我们的商业模式和广告，在一般情况下，人们使用我们的服务越多，我们也会赚更多的钱。
So as a kind of basic assumption, do we have an incentive for people to build a service that people use more? Yes, on a lot of levels.
作为一种基本假设，我们有动机让人们构建更多人们使用的服务吗？是的，在许多层面上都是这样的。
I mean, we think what we're doing is good. We think that if people are finding it useful, they'll use it more. Or if you just look at it as this sort of, if the only thing we cared about is money, which is not for anyone who knows me, but okay, we're a company. So let's say you just kind of simplify it down to that.
我是说，我们认为我们正在做的事情是好的。我们认为如果人们发现它有用，他们会更多地使用它。或者，如果只考虑钱，那么我们就是一家企业。即使对于了解我个人的人来说，钱也不是唯一的目的，但我们可以把它简化为这个问题。
Then would we want people to use the services more? Yes.
那么我们希望人们更多地使用这些服务吗？是的。
But then you get to the second question, which is, does kind of getting people agitated make them more likely to use the services more? And I think from looking at other media in the world, especially TV and there's the old news adage if it bleeds it leads.
然后你会面对第二个问题，那就是，激怒人们会不会让他们更有可能使用更多服务？我认为看看世界上的其他媒体，特别是电视，还有那句老套话“血腥新闻引领头条”，就知道了。
I think that there are a bunch of reasons why someone might think that that kind of provocative content would be the most engaging. Now what I've always found is two things.
我认为会有很多原因导致某些人认为这种挑衅的内容会最吸引人。我一直发现有两点。
One is that we'll grab someone's attention in the near term is not necessarily something that they're going to appreciate having seen or going to be the best over the long term.
有一种情况是，虽然我们很快就能吸引某人的注意，但这并不一定是他们想要看到或长期最好的选择。
So I think what a lot of people get wrong is that I'm not building this company to make the most money or get people to spend the most time on this in the next quarter or the next year. Right? I've been doing this for 17 years at this point and I'm still relatively young and have a lot more that I want to do over the coming decades.
我觉得很多人误解了我的意图，他们以为我创办这家公司是为了赚更多的钱或者让用户在下一个季度或下一年花更多的时间在这个平台上。但事实并非如此。我已经从事这个行业17年了，我还相对年轻，未来几十年里还有很多想做的事情。
So I think that it's too simplistic to say, hey, this might increase time in the near term. Therefore, it's what you're going to do because I actually think a deeper look at it, kind of what my incentives are.
我认为，如果只是简单地说，嘿，这可能会在短期内增加时间，那么这是不够全面的。因此，你需要考虑更深层次的因素，比如我的动机。
The incentives of a company that are focused on the long term is to basically do what people are going to find valuable over time. Not what is going to draw people's attention today. The other thing that I'd say is that I think a lot of times people look at this from the perspective of media or kind of information or civic discourse.
一个专注于长期的公司的激励是基本上要做的是人们随着时间的推移会发现有价值的事情。不是今天会吸引人们注意力的事情。我想说的另一件事是，我认为很多时候人们从媒体或信息或公共话语的角度来看待这个问题。
But one other way of looking at this is just that, okay, I'm a product designer, right? Our company, we build products. And a big part of building a product is not just the function and utility of what you're delivering, but the feeling of how it feels.
但是，看待这件事情的另外一种方式就是，我是一个产品设计师，对吧？我们的公司主要是生产产品。而制造一个产品的重要方面不仅包括实现创新功能和功用，还要考虑它的感觉细腻度。
We spend a lot of time talking about virtual reality and how the key aspect of that experiences, the feeling of presence, which is a visceral thing. It's not just about the utility that you're delivering. It's about the sensation. And similarly, I care a lot about how people feel when they use our products.
我们经常谈论虚拟现实，以及其关键体验方面——身临其境的感觉，这是一种直观的体验。这不仅仅关乎你所提供的工具，而是关乎感受。同样地，我非常关心人们在使用我们的产品时会有何感受。
And I don't want to build products that make people angry. I mean, that's not, I think, what we're here on this earth to do is to build something that people spend a bunch of time doing and it just kind of makes them angry at other people.
我不想制造让人们生气的产品。我的意思是，我认为我们来到这个地球上不是为了制造让人们花费大量时间却只会让他们对其他人感到愤怒的东西。
I mean, that's not good. That's not what I think would be sort of a good use of our time or a good contribution to the world. So, okay, it's like people, they tell us on a per-content basis, does this thing, do I like it, do I love it, does it make me angry, does it make me sad?
我是说，那不太好。我认为这不是一个好的利用我们时间或对世界做出贡献的方式。所以，好吧，就像人们会告诉我们每个内容的基础，这件事会让我喜欢吗？会让我爱上它吗？会让我生气或难过吗？
And based on that, we choose to basically show content that makes people angry less. Because of course, if you're designing a product and you want people to be able to connect and feel good over a long period of time, then that's naturally what you're going to do.
根据这一点，我们选择基本上减少让人们感到愤怒的内容展示。因为如果你设计一个产品，并希望人们能够长期连接和感觉良好，那么这自然是你要做的事情。
So I don't know, I think overall, I understand at a high level, if you're not thinking too deeply about it, why that argument might be appealing. But I just think if you actually look at what our real incentives are, not just like, if we were trying to optimize for the next week, but like, as people working on this, like, why are we here? And I think it's pretty clear that that's not actually how you would want to design the system.
所以，我觉得总的来说，如果你不深入思考，为什么这个论点可能很有吸引力，我大致上能理解。但是，如果你真正去看我们的真实动机，而不仅仅是，如果我们试图优化下一周，而是像作为从事这项工作的人，我们在这里的原因是什么？我认为很明显，这并不是你想要设计这个系统的方式。
I guess one other thing that I'd say is that, while we're focused on the ads business model, I do think it's important to note that a lot of these issues are not unique to ads.
我猜想另一件事情就是，虽然我们专注于广告商业模式，但我认为值得注意的是，许多问题并不仅仅局限于广告业务。
So take like a subscription news business model, for example, I think that has just as many potential pitfalls. Maybe if someone's paying for a subscription, you don't get paid per piece of content that they look at.
举例来说，像是订阅型新闻业务模式，我认为也有着同样多的潜在问题。或许如果有人付费订阅，您就不会按照用户观看的内容付费了。
But say, for example, I think like a bunch of the partisanship that we see could potentially be made worse by you have these kind of partisan news organizations that basically sell subscriptions, and they're only going to get people on one side to basically subscribe to them. So their incentive is not to print content or produce content that's kind of centrist or down the line either.
假设我认为，我们看到的许多党派斗争可能会被这些党派新闻组织潜在地恶化，因为它们基本上是销售订阅，只会让一个方向的人基本上订阅它们。所以他们的动机不是发布或制作中立或沿着路线的内容。
I bet that what a lot of them find is that if they produce stuff that's kind of more polarizing or more partisan, then that is what gets the more subscribers. So I think that this stuff is all, there's no perfect business model. Everything has pitfalls.
我敢打赌，很多人发现，如果他们创作的内容更加具有极端性或偏倚性，那么这样的内容才能获得更多的订阅者。所以我认为，这些东西并没有完美的商业模式，每一种模式都有缺陷。
The thing that I think is great about advertising is it makes it the consumer services free, which if you believe that everyone should have a voice and everyone should be able to connect, then that's a great thing. It was opposed to building a luxury service that not everyone can afford. But look, every business model, you have to be careful about how you're implementing what you're doing.
我认为广告的一个伟大之处是它让消费者享受到了免费的服务。如果你相信每个人都应该拥有发声权和连接权，那么这是非常了不起的。这就与构建不是每个人都能够承担的豪华服务相反。但是，看着吧，无论什么商业模式，你都要谨慎地考虑自己在实施什么。
You responded to a few things there. You spoke to the fact that there is a narrative of malevolence. You're leaning into them, making people angry just because it makes more money in the short term, that kind of thing. So you responded to that. But there's also a kind of reality of human nature, just like you spoke about.
你回答了一些事情。你说到了恶意叙述这样的事实。你正在倾向于这些叙述，只是因为短期内能赚更多的钱，这会让人们生气。所以你回答了这个问题。但也有一种人类本性的现实，就像你之前谈到的那样。
There is fights, arguments we get in, and we don't like ourselves afterwards, but we got into them anyway. So our long term growth is, I believe for most of us, has to do with learning, challenging yourself, improving, being kind to each other, finding a community of people that you can connect with on a real human level, all that kind of stuff.
我们常常会发生争吵和争论，做完之后我们不喜欢自己的行为，但我们还是不可避免地卷入其中。因此，我相信大多数人的长期成长与学习、挑战自我、改善自我、彼此友善相处、找到可以真正相互交流的人群等方面有关。
But it does seem when you look at social media that a lot of fights break out, a lot of arguments break out, a lot of viral content ends up being sort of outrage in one direction or the other. And so it's easy from that to infer the narrative that social media companies are letting this outrage become viral. And so they're increasing the division in the world.
当你看社交媒体时，似乎很多争执、争议性话题和激进内容变得十分热门。因此，很容易推断出社交媒体公司正在让这种愤怒情绪变得传播得更广泛，结果导致了世界上的分裂加剧。
I mean, perhaps you can comment on that or further, how can you be, how can you push back on this narrative? How can you be transparent about this battle? Because I think it's not just motivation or financials. It's a technical problem too, which is how do you improve long term well-being of human beings? I think that going through some of the design decisions would be a good conversation.
我是说，也许你可以评论一下这个问题，或者更进一步地讲，你该如何反击这个叙述呢？你如何可以让这场战斗更加透明呢？因为我认为这并不仅仅是动机或财务问题。这也是一个技术问题，即如何改善人类的长期福祉？我认为探讨一些设计决策会是一次很好的讨论。
But first, I actually think, you acknowledge that that narrative is somewhat anecdotal. And I think it's worth grounding this conversation in the actual research that has been done on this, which by and large, finds that social media is not a large driver of polarization.
首先，我认为你意识到那个故事有点像轶事。我认为值得把这个谈话基于实际研究来进行，而实际研究主要发现社交媒体不是极化的主要驱动因素。
And there's been a number of economists and social scientists and folks who have studied this. And a lot of polarization and various around the world, social media is basically in every country, Facebook is in pretty much every country except for China and maybe North Korea. And you see different trends in different places where in a lot of countries, polarization is declining in some it's flat. And the US, it's risen sharply. So the question is, what are the unique phenomenon in the different places?
有许多经济学家、社会科学家和研究者研究了这个问题。在世界各地出现了许多分裂现象和不同的社交媒体，基本上每个国家都有Facebook，除了中国和可能朝鲜。不同的地方出现了不同的趋势，很多国家的分裂现象正在减少，在一些国家则没有变化。而在美国，分裂现象急剧上升。所以问题是，不同地方的独特现象是什么？
And I think for the people who are trying to say, hey, social media is the thing that's doing this, I think that that clearly doesn't hold up because social media is a phenomenon that is pretty much equivalent in all of these different countries. And you have researchers like this economist at Stanford, Matthew Genskow, who's just written at length about this. And it's a bunch of books by political scientists that as reclined in folks, why we're polarized, basically goes through this decades-long analysis in the US before I was born, basically talking about some of the forces and partisan politics and Fox News and different things that predate the internet in a lot of ways that I think are likely larger contributors.
我认为那些试图说“社交媒体是导致这种情况的原因”的人，显然是不正确的，因为社交媒体在所有这些不同国家中都是相当等效的现象。你有像斯坦福大学的经济学家马修·根斯考这样的研究人员，他刚刚写了很多关于这方面的内容。还有一些政治科学家的书，像弗兰克·霍茨和尼尔·范德维尔那样，他们为我们解释了为什么我们会受到党派政治和福克斯新闻等这些互联网之前存在的因素的影响——这都是我出生之前数十年的分析。我认为这些因素可能是更重要的贡献者。
So to the contrary on this, not only is it pretty clear that social media is not a major contributor, but most of the academic studies that I've seen actually show that social media use is correlated with lower polarization. Genskow, the same person who just did the study that I cited about longitudinal polarization across different countries, also did a study that basically showed that if you looked after the 2016 election in the US, the voters who are the most polarized were actually the ones who were not on the internet.
所以，完全相反的是，社交媒体并不是主要推动极化的因素，这一点非常明显。事实上，我看过的大部分学术研究都表明使用社交媒体会导致较低的极化。同一个人Genskow刚刚做了一项有关不同国家纵向极化的研究，他还做了一项研究，基本上表明在2016年美国选举之后，最极化的选民实际上是那些不上网的人。
So in there have been recent other studies, I think in Europe and around the world, basically showing that as people stop using social media, they tend to get more polarized. Then there's a deeper analysis around, okay, well, polarization actually isn't even one thing because having different opinions on something isn't, I don't think that that's by itself bad.
最近在欧洲和全世界进行了其他研究，基本上表明当人们停止使用社交媒体时，他们往往会变得更加极端。然后对此进行了深入分析，认为极端化其实并不是一件坏事，因为在某个问题上持有不同的意见并不是坏事。
What people who study this say is most problematic is what they call affective polarization, which is basically, are you, do you have negative feelings towards people of another group? The way that a lot of scholars study this is they basically ask a group, would you let your kids marry someone of group X? Whatever the groups are that you're worried that someone might have negative feelings towards..
那些研究这个问题的人所说最棘手的是他们所称的情感极化，也就是说，你是否对另一组的人有负面情绪？许多学者研究这个问题的方法是基本上问一个组，你会让你的孩子和一个X族群的人结婚吗？无论你担心的是哪些群体......
In general, use of social media has corresponded to decreases in that kind of affective polarization. So I just want to, I think we should talk to the design decisions and how we handle the kind of specific pieces of content, but overall, I think it's just worth grounding that discussion in the research that's existed that I think overwhelmingly shows that the mainstream narrative around this is just not right. But the narrative does take hold and it's compelling to a lot of people.
通常使用社交媒体与情感上的两极化有关的现象有所减少。所以我想，我们应该谈论设计决策以及如何处理具体的内容片段，但总的来说，我认为值得将这个讨论基于现有的研究，因为它压倒性地表明，关于这个问题的主流说法是不正确的。但这个叙述确实有着很强的吸引力，许多人都受到了它的影响。
There's another question I'd like to ask you on this. I was looking at various polls and saw that you're one of the most dislike tech leaders today. 54% unfavorable rating. Elon Musk is 23%. It's basically everybody has a very high unfavorable rating that are tech leaders. Maybe you can help me understand that. Why do you think so many people dislike you, some even hate you, and how do you regain their trust and support?
有另外一个问题我想问你。我看了许多民调，发现你是当今最不受欢迎的科技领袖之一，不喜欢你的比例高达54%，而埃隆·马斯克的比例只有23%。实际上，很多科技领袖都受到了大量不喜欢的评价。也许你可以帮我理解一下，为什么这么多人不喜欢你，甚至恨你，你该如何重新赢得他们的信任和支持？
Given everything you just said, why are you losing the battle in explaining to people what actual impact social media has on society?
“考虑到你刚刚说的一切，为什么你在向人们解释社交媒体对社会的实际影响时打败了？”
Well, I'm curious if that's a US survey or world. It is US. I think that there's a few dynamics. Our brand has been somewhat uniquely challenged in the US compared to other places. It's not that there are. Other countries we have issues too. But I think in the US there was this dynamic where if you look at the net sentiment of coverage or attitude towards us.
我很好奇这是美国的调查还是全球的。它是美国的。我认为有一些动态因素。相比其他地方，我们的品牌在美国受到了独特的挑战。这并不是说其他国家没有问题。但我认为在美国，如果你看看我们的报道或对我们的态度的净情感，会有一个动态因素。
Before 2016, I think that there were probably very few months if any where it was negative. Since 2016, I think there have been very few months if any, then it's been positive. Politics. But I think it's a specific thing. This is very different from other places. I think in a lot of other countries in the world, the sentiment towards meta and our services is extremely positive. In the US we have more challenges.
在2016年之前，我认为可能很少有一个月出现负面情况。自2016年以来，我认为很少有月份出现过积极情况了。这与政治有关，但我认为这是一件特别的事情。这与其他地方非常不同。我认为在世界上许多其他国家，人们对Meta和我们的服务的态度非常积极。在美国，我们面临更多挑战。
I think compared to other companies, you can look at certain industries, if you look at it from a partisan perspective. Not from a political perspective, but just culturally. It's like there are people who are probably more left of center and there are people who are more right of center and there's kind of blue America and red America. There are certain industries that I think maybe one half of the country has a more positive view towards than another.
我认为与其他公司相比，你可以从一个团队的角度来看待某些行业，而不是政治角度，而是文化角度。就像有些人可能更左翼，有些人可能更右翼，存在蓝色的美国和红色的美国。有些行业可能有一半以上的国家持有更积极的看法，而另一半则持有不同看法。
I think we are in a one of the positions that we're in that I think is really challenging is that because of a lot of the content decisions that we've basically had to arbitrate, and because we're not a partisan company, we're not a Democrat company or a Republican company. We're trying to make the best decisions we can to help people connect and help people have as much voices they can while having some rules because we're running a community.
我认为我们面临的其中一个挑战性位置是，由于我们必须对很多内容决策进行仲裁，而我们并不是一个党派性的公司，也不是民主党或共和党的公司。我们试着做出最好的决策，以帮助人们互相联系和有更多的发言权，同时也要有一些规则，因为我们在经营一个社区。
The net effect of that is that we're constantly making decisions that piss off people in both camps. The effect that I've seen is that when we make a decision that is a controversial one that's going to upset, say, about half the country, those decisions are all negative some from a brand perspective.
这样做的最终结果是，我们不断地做出决定，得罪了两个阵营中的人。我观察到的影响是，当我们做出一个具有争议性的决定，会让大约一半的国家不高兴，这些决定从品牌角度来看都是负面的。
Because it's not like if we make that decision in one way and say half the country is happy about that particular decision that we make, they tend to not say, oh, sweet, meta got that one right. They're just like, I didn't miss that one up, right? But their opinion doesn't tend to go up by that much. Whereas the people who kind of are on the other side of it, God, how could you mess that up? Like, how could you possibly think that that piece of content is okay and should be up and should not be censored?
因为如果我们做出某种决定，让一半的国家对这个决定感到开心，他们通常不会说：“噢，太好了，Meta做对了。”他们只是说：“没错，我没搞错吧？”但他们的观点很少会因此而提高。而那些持相反观点的人会说：“天哪，你怎么会搞砸这个呢？你怎么可能认为那个内容是可以的，应该上线，而不应该被审查？”
So I think whereas if you leave it up, or if you take it down, the people who thought that should be taken down, or it's like, all right, fine, great, you didn't miss that one up. So our internal assessment of analytics on our brand are basically any time one of these big controversial things comes up in society, our brand goes down with half of the country. And then if you just extrapolate that out, it's just been very challenging for us to try to navigate what is a polarizing country in a principled way, where we're not trying to kind of huge a one side or the other, we're trying to do what we think is the right thing.
我觉得如果你保持不变，或者你将其拆下来，那些认为应该拆除的人，或者就像“好的，没问题，你没搞错”那样的人，会有这种想法。所以我们对我们品牌的内部分析基本上是任何时候当社会上出现这些大的争议性事件时，我们的品牌随着一半的国家一起下滑。而且如果你将其扩展出来，对我们来说试图以一个有原则的方式在一个极端分化的国家中导航是非常具有挑战性的，我们不想偏向某一方，而是想做我们认为正确的事情。
But that's what I think is the right thing for us to do though. So I mean, that's what we'll try to keep doing.
不过，我认为那就是我们应该做的正确事情。所以我的意思是，我们会继续尝试这样做。
Just as a human being, how does it feel though when you're giving so much of your day-to-day life to try to heal division, to try to do good in the world as we've talked about that so many people in the US, the place you call home, have a negative view of you as a leader, as a human being, and the company you love.
像一个人类一样，当你把大部分日常生活投入到努力疗愈分歧、努力在我们已经谈论了很多的美国这个你称为家的地方做出贡献时，你感觉如何？许多人对你作为一位领导者、一个人类，以及你所热爱的公司持有负面的看法。如果需要的话，请改写。
Well, I mean, it's not great. But I mean, look, if I wanted people to think positively about me as a person, I don't know. I'm not sure if you could build a company. I mean, it's like, like, or social media companies. I mean, it's just something. I just think it's just something difficult to do with a social media.
嗯，我的意思是，这不太好。但是你看啊，如果我想让人们对我作为一个人产生积极的看法，我不知道啊。我不确定你能不能建立一个公司。我的意思是，像社交媒体公司之类的东西。我觉得这只是一些困难的事情，在社交媒体上做这些事情非常困难。
Yeah. And I don't know, there is a dynamic where a lot of the other people running these companies, internet companies, have sort of stepped back. And they just do things that are sort of, I don't know, less controversial. And some of it may be that they just get tired over time. But it's... I think that running a company is hard. Building something at scale is hard. You only really do it for a long period of time if you really care about what you're doing.
是的。我不知道为什么其他经营互联网公司的人都有点退缩了。他们只做一些看起来不太具有争议性的事情。也许，他们只是随着时间的推移变得疲倦了。但是...我认为经营一家公司很难。规模化建设也很难。只有当你真的关心自己在做什么时，你才能长期做到。
And, yeah, so I mean, it's not great. But look, I think that at some level, whether 25% of people dislike you or 75% of people dislike you, your experience as a public figure is going to be that there's a lot of people who dislike you. Right? So, yeah. So I actually am not sure how different it is. You know, certainly, the country's gotten more polarized and we in particular have gotten more controversial over the last five or years or so. But I don't know. I kind of think like as a public figure and leader of one of these enterprises comes to the job.
是的，我的意思是，情况并不好。但是你看，我认为在某些层面上，无论是25%的人不喜欢你还是75%的人不喜欢你，你作为公众人物的体验都将是有很多人不喜欢你。对吧？所以，是的。我实际上不确定它有多不同。你知道的，毫无疑问，这个国家已经变得更加极端化，我们尤其在过去的五年中变得更加具有争议性。但我不知道。我有点认为，作为公众人物和这些企业之一的领导者，就要承担这份工作。
Part of what you do is like, and look, the answer can't just be ignored, right? Because like a huge part of the job is like you need to be getting feedback and internalizing feedback on how you can do better. But I think increasing what you need to do is be able to figure out, you know, who are the kind of good faith critics who are criticizing you because they're trying to help you do a better job rather than tear you down. And those are the people I just think you have to cherish and like and listen very closely to the things that they're saying because, you know, I think it's just as dangerous to now everyone who says anything negative and just listen to the people who are kind of positive and support you, you know, as it would be psychologically to pay attention trying to make people who are never going to like you like you. So I think that's just kind of a dance that people have to do.
你所做的一部分就是，在工作中需要得到反馈和内化反馈。因为这项工作的一大部分是需要不断改进。但我认为，你需要做的是，搞清楚哪些人是出于善意批评你帮你改进的，哪些人是出于恶意贬低你的。那些善意的批评者，我认为你需要珍惜他们，认真倾听他们说的话，因为听取那些对你有好处的反馈很重要。同时，如果你只听取那些支持你、积极反馈的人，而忽视了其他人的意见，那么与努力让永远不喜欢你的人喜欢你一样，这也是心理上不健康的。所以，我认为这是一种人们必须要跳舞的方式。
But I mean, I, you know, you kind of develop more of a feel for like who actually is trying to accomplish the same types of things in the world and who has different ideas about how to do that and how can I learn from those people? And like, yeah, we get stuff wrong. And when the people whose opinions I respect call me out on getting stuff wrong, that hurts and makes me want to do better. But I think at this point, I'm pretty tuned to just, all right, if someone, if I know they're, they're kind of like operating in bad faith and they're not really trying to help, then, you know, I don't know. It's not, it doesn't, you know, I think over time, it just doesn't bother you that much.
我是说，你知道的，你会更有感觉，关于谁真正想要在世界上完成同样的事情，以及谁有不同的想法，如何学习他们的想法？我们会犯错误，当我尊重的人批评我的错误时，我会感到痛苦，并且会让我更努力。但现在我比较明白，如果有人，我知道他们有恶意，不想真的帮助，那么我就不知道怎么办了。随着时间的推移，这种感觉就不会那么困扰你了。
But you are surrounded by people that believe in the mission that love you. Are there friends or colleagues in your inner circle you trust that call you out on your bullshit whenever you're thinking maybe misguided it as it is for leaders at times?
你身边有很多人相信你的使命并爱护你。在你的内部圈子里，是否有一些朋友或同事值得你信任，能够及时指出你可能被误导的理念，正如领袖们有时会做出错误的判断？
I think we have a famously open company culture where we sort of encourage that kind of descent internally, which is, you know, why there's so much material internally that can leak out with people sort of disagreeing is because that's sort of the culture. You know, our management team, I think it's a lot of people, you know, there's some newer folks who come in, there's some folks who have kind of been there for a while, but there's a very high level of trust. And I would say it is a relatively confrontational group of people.
我认为我们公司文化非常开放，我们内部鼓励这种不同意见的沟通，这也是为什么公司内部有这么多泄密问题的原因之一，因为这已经成了我们的文化。我们的管理团队有很多人，一些新来的员工，也有一些工龄比较久的员工，但是大家都非常信任彼此。我认为这是一个相对具有冲突性的团队。
And my friends and family, I think, will push me on this, but look, but I think it's not just, but I think you need some diversity, right? It can't just be, you know, people who are your friends and family. It's also, you know, I mean, there are journalists or analysts or, you know, peer executives at other companies or, you know, other people who sort of are insightful about thinking about the world, you know, certain politicians or people kind of in that sphere who I just think have like very insightful perspectives who, even if they would, they come at the world from a different perspective, which is sort of what makes the perspective so valuable.
我认为我的朋友和家人会支持我，但我觉得我们需要多元化，不只是我们的朋友和家人，还有那些记者、分析师、其他公司的同行高管，以及其他的一些很有洞见的人士，比方说政治家或那些具有深刻见解的人，即使他们从不同的视角来看待世界，这也是使他们的观点如此宝贵的原因。
But, you know, I think fundamentally, you're trying to get to the same place in terms of, you know, helping people connect more, helping the whole world function better, not just, you know, one place or another. And I don't know, I mean, those are the people whose opinions really matter to me. And I just, it's, you know, that's how I learn on a day-to-day basis.
但是，你知道，我认为从根本上来说，你试图实现相同的目标，就是帮助人们更好地连接，帮助整个世界更好地运转，而不仅仅是在某个地方。我不知道，那些人的意见真的很重要，我每天都是这样学习的。
People are constantly sending me comments on stuff for links to things they found interesting and, and I don't know, it's, it's kind of constantly evolving this model of the world and, and kind of what we should be aspiring to be.
人们一直在向我发送评论，分享他们发现有趣的事情的链接。我不知道，这个世界的模式一直在不断发展，我们应该追求的东西也在不断变化。
You've talked about, you have a famously open culture, which comes with the criticism and the painful experiences. So let me ask you another difficult question.
你们谈到了你们有着出名的开放文化，这也伴随着批评和痛苦的经历。让我问你们另一个难题。
Francis Hagen, the Facebook whistleblower, leaked the internal Instagram research into teenagers and well-being. Our claim is that Instagram is choosing profit over well-being of teenage girls.
弗朗西斯·哈根是Facebook的通告者，泄露了Instagram内部研究青少年和幸福感的信息。我们声称Instagram选择了利润而不是青少年女孩的幸福感。
So Instagram is quote, toxic for them. Your response titled, what are research really says about teen well-being? And Instagram says, no, Instagram research shows that 11 of 12 well-being issues teenage girls who said they struggle with those difficult issues also said that Instagram made them better rather than worse.
所以Instagram对她们来说是有害的。你的回答标题是“关于青少年幸福感的研究真正表明了什么？” Instagram表示，不，Instagram的研究表明，12个幸福问题中有11个青少年女孩表示她们在应对这些难题时，Instagram使她们变得更好，而不是更糟。
Again, can you steal man and defend the point and Francis Hagen's characterization of the study and then help me understand the positive and negative effects of Instagram and Facebook on young people?
请再讲一遍，您能否扮演反方，为法兰西斯·哈根的研究表述辩护，并帮助我理解Instagram和Facebook对年轻人的正面和负面影响呢？
So there are certainly questions around teen mental health that are really important. It's hard to, you know, as a parent, it's like hard to imagine any set of questions that are sort of more important, I guess, maybe other aspects of physical health or, or well-being are probably come to that level. But like, these are really important questions, right, which is why we dedicate teams to studying them.
那么，青少年心理健康方面确实存在非常重要的问题。作为父母，很难想象还有任何比这更重要的问题集，我想，也许其他方面的身体健康或者幸福感可能也是同样重要的。但是，这些确实是非常重要的问题，因此我们要专门组成团队来研究它们。
You know, I don't think the internet or social media are unique in having these questions. I mean, I think people, and there have been sort of magazines with promoting certain body types for women and kids for decades. But, you know, we really care about this stuff. So we wanted to study it. And of course, you know, we didn't expect that everything was going to be positive all the time.
你知道，我认为互联网或社交媒体在遇到这些问题上并不独一无二。我的意思是，几十年来一直有一些杂志宣传某些女性和儿童的身材类型。但是，你知道，我们很在意这些东西。所以我们想要研究一下。当然，你知道，我们并没有预料到一切都会一直是积极的。
So I mean, the reason why you study this stuff is to try to improve and get better. So I mean, look, the place where I disagree with the characterization first, I thought, you know, some of the reporting and coverage of it just took the whole thing out of proportion and that it focused on, as you said, I think there were like 20 metrics in there. And on, you know, 18 or 19, the effect of using Instagram was neutral or positive on the teens well-being and there was one area where I think it showed that we needed to improve and we took some steps to try to do that after doing the research.
那么，你学习这个东西的原因是为了尝试提高自己，变得更好。所以，我是说，首先我不同意这种描述的原因是，我认为一些报道和报道过程把整件事情夸大了，并且它关注的是，就像你说的那样，里面有大约20个指标。在18或19个指标中，使用Instagram对青少年的幸福感的影响是中性或者积极的，只有一个地方我们需要改进，而我们在研究之后采取了一些措施来尝试做到这一点。
But I think having the coverage just focused on that one without focusing on the, you know, I think an accurate characterization would have been that kids using Instagram or not kids teens is generally positive for their mental health. But of course, that was not the narrative that came out. So I think it's hard to, that's not a kind of logical thing to strom in.
我认为，仅将报道聚焦于 Instagram 对青少年的影响上而不关注其他方面，这并不是准确的描述。事实上，使用 Instagram 或不使用对青少年的心理健康一般都是积极的。但是，这不是媒体传播的主流声音。因此，我认为这并不是一种合乎逻辑的言论。
But I sort of disagree or, or, or steel man, but I sort of disagree with that overall characterization. I think anyone sort of looking at this objectively would.
但我有点不同意，或者说，“钢铁人（即理解并针对最强的反驳意见）”，但我对总体描述有点不同意。我认为任何客观地看待这件事的人都会这样认为。
But then, you know, I mean, the, there is this sort of intent critique that I think you were getting at before, which, which says, you know, it assumes some sort of malevolence, right? It's like, which it's, it's really hard for me to really wrap my head around this because as far as I know, it's not clear that any of the other tech companies are doing this kind of research.
不过，你知道，我是说，有一种敌意批评，我认为你之前提到过，它假设某种恶意，对吧？就像是，这真的很难让我理解，因为据我所知，其他科技公司是否在进行这种研究并不清楚。
So why the narrative should form that we did research, you know, because we were studying an issue because we wanted to understand it to improve and took steps after that to try to improve it, that your interpretation of that would be that, that we did the research and tried to sweep it under the rug. It just, it's sort of is like, I don't know, it's beyond credibility to me that like, that's the accurate description of the actions that we've taken compared to the others in the industry.
所以，我们进行研究是因为我们想要理解一个问题并改善它，然后采取措施来尝试进行改善。你认为我们进行研究就是想隐瞒它，这种叙述方式是不合适的。对我来说，这就像是毫无可信度的，与我们行业中其他人所采取的行动相比，这种说法根本不准确。
So, I know that's, that's, that's, that's my view on it. These are really important issues and there's a lot of stuff that I think we're going to be working on related to teen mental health for a long time, including trying to understand this better. And I would encourage everyone else in the industry to do this too.
嗯，我知道这是我的观点。这些真的很重要的问题，我认为我们在与青少年心理健康相关的许多事情上都需要长时间的工作，包括尝试更好地理解这个问题。我也鼓励同行业的所有人也这样做。
Yeah, I would love there to be open conversations and a lot of great research being released internally and then also externally. It doesn't make me feel good to see press obviously get way more clicks when they see negative things about social media.
嗯，我希望能够开放交流，并发布很多有益的内部和外部研究成果。当媒体报道社交媒体的负面新闻时获取更多的点击量，我会感到很不舒服。
Let's objectively speaking, I can just tell that there's hunger to say negative things about social media. And I don't understand how that's supposed to lead to an open conversation about the positives and the negatives, the concerns about social media, especially when you're doing those kind, that kind of research.
说实话，我觉得人们都很渴望说 social media 的负面事情，这是客观的事实。但我不明白这样做有什么好处，因为这不利于打开正面和负面的对话，也不利于对 social media 的问题进行深入研究。
I mean, I don't know what to do with that, but let me ask you as a father, there's a way heavy on you that people get bullied on social networks. So people get bullied in their private life. But now because so much of our life is in the digital world, the bullying moves from the physical world to the digital world.
我是说，我不知道该怎么处理这件事，但是作为一个父亲，我想问问您，有一种方法让人们在社交网络上受到欺凌，这对你来说是一种沉重的负担。所以人们在他们的私人生活中也受到欺凌。但现在，由于我们的生活如此之多在数字世界中，欺凌从物理世界转移到数字世界。
So you're now creating a platform on which bullying happens and some of that bullying can lead to damage to mental health and some of that bullying can lead to depression, even suicide. There's a way heavy on you that people have committed suicide or will commit suicide based on the bullying that happens on social media.
所以现在你正在创建一个充满欺凌的平台，其中部分欺凌可能会导致心理健康损伤，而另一部分欺凌甚至会导致抑郁症和自杀。你需要承担很重的责任，因为有人因为社交媒体上的欺凌而自杀，也有可能会因为这种欺凌而自杀。
Yeah, I mean, this is a, there's a set of harms that we basically track and build systems to fight against and bullying and in a self-harm are, you know, I mean, these are, these are some of the biggest things that we, that we are most focused on. For bullying, like you say, it's going to be, while this predates the internet, that it's probably impossible to get rid of all of it, you want to give people tools to fight it and you want to fight it yourself.
嗯，我的意思是，我们追踪和构建系统来对抗欺凌和自残这些伤害，这是我们最专注的问题之一。对于欺凌而言，虽然它早在互联网之前就存在了，但要完全摆脱它可能是不可能的。但我们可以为人们提供应对工具，并自己与之作斗争。
And you also want to make sure that people have the tools to get help when they need it. So I think it, this isn't like a question of, you know, can you get rid of all bullying? I mean, it's like, all right. I mean, I have two daughters and, you know, they, they fight and, you know, push each other around and stuff too. And the question is just how do you, how do you handle that situation?
你想要确保人们能够在需要时得到帮助。所以我认为这不是一个问题，你知道，你能否消除所有的欺凌？我的意思是，好吧。我有两个女儿，她们也会打架，互相推搡之类的。问题只是该怎么处理这种情况？
And there's a handful of things that I think you can, you can do. And we talked a little bit before around some of the AI tools that you can build to identify when something harmful is, is happening. It's actually, it's very hard in bullying because a lot of bullying is very context specific. It's not like you're trying to fit a formula of like, you know, if, if, if, if like, looking at the different harms, you know, someone promoting a terrorist group is like, probably one of the simpler things to generally find because things promoting that group are going to, you know, look at a certain way or feel a certain way.
我认为有一些事情是你可以做的。我们之前谈到过一些人工智能工具，可以帮助你识别出有害行为。在欺凌中这类工具非常难以使用，因为很多欺凌行为是非常具体情境相关的。并非像其他有害行为那样，可以套用公式来寻找。比如，一个宣传恐怖组织的人很容易被辨认出来，因为宣传这样的组织的东西通常具有一定的特征和感觉。
Bullying could just be, you know, someone making some subtle comment about someone's appearance that's idiosyncratic to them. And it could look at just like humor. So humor to one person. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
欺凌可能只是一个人对某人的外貌做出一些个性化的微妙评论，这可能看起来只是幽默。所以对某人来说，这就是幽默。确切地说，就是这样。没错。
So with bullying, I think there are, there are certain things that you can find through AI systems. But I think it is increasingly important to just give people more agency themselves. So we've done things like making it so people can turn off comments or, you know, take a break from, you know, hearing from a specific person without having to signal at all that they're going to stop following them or, or, or kind of make some, some stand that, okay, I'm not friends with you anymore. I'm not following you. I just like, I just don't want to hear about this, but I also don't want to signal at all publicly that, or to them that, that there's been an issue.
我认为，在欺凌方面，虽然AI系统能够发挥一定作用，但越来越重要的是让人们自己更具主动性。我们已经采取了各种措施，例如让人们可以关闭评论或者暂停接收某个特定人的消息，而无需公开宣布他们要停止关注对方或者表态说不再与他们交往。我只是不想听到这些消息了，但我也不想公开表态或者让他们感到有什么问题。
And then you get to some of the more extreme cases like you're talking about where someone is thinking about, you know, self harm or suicide. And in there, we found that that is a place where AI can, can identify a lot as, as well as people flagging things, you know, if people are expressing something that is, is, you know, potentially, they're thinking of hurting themselves. Those are cues that you can build systems and, you know, hundreds of languages around the world to be able to identify that.
然后你会遇到一些更极端的情况，比如你谈论的是一个人在考虑自残或自杀。在那里，我们发现AI可以识别很多的东西，还有人们可能会把某些事情标记出来，如果人们表达了一些潜在的自伤想法的话。这些都是你可以建立系统和数百种全球语言来识别的线索。
And one of the things that I'm actually quite proud of is we've, we've built the systems that I think are clearly leading at this point that not only identify that, but then connect with local first responders and have been able to save, I think, at this point, it's, you know, in thousands of cases, be able to get first responders to people through these systems who really need them because of specific plumbing that we've done between the AI work and being able to communicate with local first responder organizations. And we're rolling that out in more places around the world. And I think the team that worked on that just did awesome stuff.
我非常自豪的一件事情是我们已经建立了系统，在这些系统中，我们不仅能够明确地发现问题，而且还能够与当地的急救人员联系，并且我们已经成功地通过这些系统拯救了成千上万个人。这是由于我们在人工智能工作和与当地急救组织进行沟通之间做出的特定安排。我们正在逐步地将这种系统推广到全球更多的地方。我认为，参与这项工作的团队真的是做得很出色。
So I think that that's a long way of saying, yeah, I mean, this is a, this is a heavy topic and there's, you want to attack it in a bunch of different ways. And also kind of understand that some of nature is for people to, to do this to each other, which is unfortunate, but, but you can give people tools and, and build things that help.
所以我认为这么说其实就是说这是一个很严重的话题，需要从很多不同的角度去处理。同时也要明白有些人天性中就会这样对待别人，这是不幸的，但是你可以提供工具，建造东西来帮助他们。
It's still one hell of a burden, no. A platform that allows people to fall in love with each other is also by nature going to be a platform that allows people to hurt each other. And when you're managing such a platform, it's difficult.. And I think you spoke to it, but the psychology of that being a leader in that space of creating technology that's playing in the space, like you mentioned, psychology is really damn difficult. And I mean, the burden of that is just, it's just great. I just wanted to hear you speak to that point.
这还是一个巨大的负担，对吧。让人们相爱的平台本质上也会成为让人们互相伤害的平台。当你管理这样的平台时，难度很大。我想你谈到了这一点，但是作为在这个技术领域创造产品的领导者，心理学真的是非常困难的。我的意思是，这份负担真的是太大了。我只是想听听你对这一点的看法。
I have to ask about the thing you've brought up a few times, which is making controversial decisions. Let's talk about free speech and censorship. So there are two groups of people, a pressuring meta on this. One group is upset that Facebook, the social network allows misinformation and quotes to be spread on the platform. The other group are concerned that Facebook censors speech by calling it misinformation. So you're getting it from both sides.
我得询问你几次提出的那个问题，即做出有争议的决策。让我们谈谈言论自由和审查制度。因此，有两个团体在这个问题上斗争。一个团体感到不满，因为社交媒体Facebook允许错误信息和引用在平台上流传。另一个团体则担心Facebook通过将其称为错误信息来审查言论。所以你会从两方面得到不同的观点。
You, in 2019, October at Georgetown University eloquently defended the importance of free speech, but then COVID came. And the 2020 election came. Do you worry that outside pressures from advertisers, politicians, the public have forced meta to damage the ideal of free speech that you spoke highly of?
你在2019年十月在乔治城大学雄辩地捍卫了言论自由的重要性，但是随后新冠疫情和2020年的选举到来了。你担心广告商、政客和公众的外部压力迫使Meta损害了你所高度赞扬的言论自由理念吗？
Just to say some obvious things up front. I don't think pressure from advertisers or politicians directly in any way affects how we think about this. I think these are just hard topics. So let me just take you through our evolution from kind of the beginning of the company to where we are now.
首先，我想强调一些显而易见的事情。我不认为广告商或政治家的压力会直接影响我们对这个问题的看法。我认为这些只是一些难以解决的话题。所以，让我带你们了解我们公司从开始到现在的发展历程。
You don't build a company like this unless you believe that people expressing themselves is a good thing. Right. So that's sort of the foundational thing. You can kind of think about our company as a formula where we think giving people voice and helping people connect creates opportunity. Right. So those are the two things that we're always focused on are sort of helping people connect. We talked about that a lot, but also giving people voice and ability to express themselves.
如果你不相信人们表达自己是件好事，你就无法建立起像这样的公司。是的，这是基础。你可以想象我们的公司是一个公式，我们认为给人们发声和帮助人们联系会创造机会。对的，这就是我们一直关注的两个方面，一是帮助人们交流，我们谈论了很多次；二是给予人们表达自己的能力和机会。
And by the way, most of the time when people express themselves, that's not like politically controversial content. It's like expressing something about their identity that's more related to the avatar conversation we had earlier in terms of expressing some facet, but that's what's important to people on a day to day basis. And sometimes when people feel strongly enough about something, it kind of becomes a political topic. That's sort of always been a thing that we've focused on.
顺便提一下，大多数时候人们表达自己的意见并不涉及政治敏感话题。他们更多地是在表达自己身份的某些方面，就像我们之前讨论的头像话题一样。但这是人们日常生活中非常重要的事情。有时候当人们对某些事情感到强烈时，这也可能演变成一个政治话题。这一直是我们关注的一个问题。
There's always been the question of safety in this, which if you're building a community, I think you have to focus on safety. We've had these community standards from early on. And there are about 20 different kinds of harm that we track and try to fight actively. And we've talked about some of them already.
一直以来，这个问题都围绕安全展开，如果你要建立一个社群，我认为你必须关注安全。我们从一开始就有这些社群标准。大约有20种不同的伤害类型，我们会积极追踪并努力抵制。我们已经谈论过其中的一些。
So it includes things like bullying and harassment. It includes things like terrorism or promoting terrorism, inciting violence, intellectual property theft. And in general, I think, called about 18 out of 20 of those, there's not really a particularly polarized definition of that. I think you're not really going to find many people in the country or in the world who are trying to say we should be fighting terrorist content less. I think that the content where there are a couple of areas where I think this has gotten more controversial recently, which I'll talk about.
这包括欺凌和骚扰之类的事情。也包括恐怖主义或促进恐怖主义、煽动暴力、知识产权盗窃等。总的来说，我认为，在这20个条款中，有18个并没有特别极端的定义。我想你在全国甚至全世界找不到很多人会说我们应该减少打击恐怖主义内容。然而，有一些领域最近引起了争议，我将详细谈论。
And you're right that misinformation is basically is up there. And I think sometimes the definition of hate speech is up there too. But I think in general, most of the content that I think we're working on for safety is not actually, you know, people don't kind of have these questions. So it's sort of this subset.
你说得对，误导信息基本上是一个大问题。有时候仇恨言论的定义也是一个问题。但我认为总的来说，我们为了安全正在处理的大部分内容，人们并没有这些疑问。所以，这只是一个小部分。
But if you go back to the beginning of the company, this was sort of pre-deep learning days. And therefore, you know, it was me and my roommate Dustin joined me. And like, if someone posted something bad, you know, it was the AI technology did not exist yet to be able to go basically look at all the content. And we were a small enough outfit that no one would expect that we could review it all, even if like someone reported it to us, we basically did our best, right?
如果你回到公司的起初，那时还没有深度学习。所以，当时我和我的室友达斯汀一起加入了公司。如果某人发布了不好的内容，由于AI技术还不存在，我们无法去检查所有内容。我们公司规模还很小，即使有人向我们报告了，也没有人期望我们能够全部审核。我们只能尽力而为。
It's like someone would report it and we try to look at stuff and deal with stuff. And for call the first, I don't know, seven or eight years of the company, you know, we weren't that big of a company, you know, for a lot of that period, we weren't even really profitable. The AI didn't really exist to be able to do the kind of moderation that we do today. And then at some point, and kind of the middle of the last decade, that started to flip.
就像有人会报告，我们会尝试查看和处理这些内容。在公司的前七八年里，我们并不是一个很大的公司，在这段时间里，我们甚至很长一段时间都没有真正获得盈利。我们今天所做的那种调节，并没有真正的人工智能能够做到。然后在上个十年的中期，情况开始发生改变。
And we, you know, we became, it got to the point where we were sort of a larger and more profitable company. And the AI was starting to come online to be able to proactively detect some of the simpler forms of this. So things, things like pornography, you could train an image classifier to, you know, identify what a nipple was or you can fight against terrorist content..
我们，你知道的，我们成为了一个更大、更有盈利的公司，AI 正在上线，可以主动检测一些简单形式的内容，比如色情，你可以训练一个图像分类器去识别乳头，或者打击恐怖主义内容。
You still put papers on this. It's great. Oh, of course there are. Oh, of course there are. Of course there are. You know, those are relatively easier things to train AI to do than, for example, understand the nuances of what is inciting violence in 100 languages around the world and not have the false positives of like, okay, are you posting about this thing that might be inciting violence because you're actually trying to denounce it.
你还在这上面放纸，很好啊。噢，当然有。当然有。你知道，相对而言，训练 AI 做这些事情相对容易一些，比如说理解全球 100 种语言中什么是煽动暴力的微妙之处，而且不能有假阳性，例如，你发帖讨论煽动暴力的事情，是因为你想谴责它。
In which case, we probably shouldn't take that down. Right, if you're trying to denounce something that's inciting violence in some kind of dialect in a corner of India, as opposed to, okay, actually you're posting this thing because you're trying to incite violence. Okay, get building an AI that can basically get to that level of nuance and all the languages that we serve is something that I think is only really becoming possible now, not towards the middle of the last decade.
那么在这种情况下，我们可能不应该将其撤下。对了，如果你试图谴责印度某个角落以某种方言煽动暴力的事情，与其说你是因为想煽动暴力而发布这件事，那么就不一样了。好的，我们需要开发一个能够在我们所服务的所有语言中达到这种细微差别的人工智能，我认为现在才真正成为可能，而不是在上一个十年的中期。
But there's been this evolution. And I think what happened, people sort of woke up after 2016 and a lot of people were like, okay, the country is a lot more polarized and there's a lot more stuff here than we realized. Why weren't these internet companies on top of this? And I think at that point, it was reasonable feedback that some of this technology had started becoming possible and at that point, I really did feel like we needed to make a substantially larger investment.
有一个演变的过程。我认为发生了什么事情，人们在2016年之后醒悟了，许多人都认为，国家的分化程度比我们意识到的更高，事情比我们想象的要多。为什么这些互联网公司没有掌握这些情况呢？那时，这是合理的反馈，一些技术已经开始变得可能，那时，我真的觉得我们需要进行大规模的投资。
We'd already worked on this stuff a lot on AI and on these integrity problems, but that we should basically invest, you know, have a thousand or more engineers basically work on building these AI systems to be able to go and proactively identify the stuff across all these different areas. Okay, so we went into that. Now we've built the tools to be able to do that.
我们已经在AI和这些完整性问题上投入了很多精力，但是基本上我们应该投资，你知道，让一千或更多工程师来构建这些AI系统，以便能够主动地在所有不同领域中识别出这些问题。好的，所以我们就这么做了。现在我们已经构建好了可以这样做的工具。
And now I think it's actually a much more complicated set of philosophical rather than technical questions, which is the exact policy is which are okay. Now the way that we basically hold ourselves accountable, because we use transparency reports every quarter, and the metric that we track is for each of those 20 types of harmful content. How much of that content are we taking down before someone even has to report it to us? So how effective is our AI at doing this?
现在我认为这其实是一组更为复杂的哲学问题，而非技术问题。这些问题涉及确切的政策，哪些是被允许的。我们基本上通过每个季度发布的透明度报告来对自己进行问责，我们追踪的指标是针对这 20 种有害内容中的每一种，有多少内容是我们在别人向我们报告之前就已经下架了？我们的人工智能在这方面的效果如何？
But that basically creates this big question, which is, okay, now we need to really be careful about how proactive we set the AI and where the exact policy lines are around what we're taking down. It's certainly at a point now where, you know, I felt like at the beginning of that journey of building those AI systems, there's a lot of push.
但这基本上引出了一个重要问题，那就是，好，现在我们需要非常小心地设置人工智能的主动性以及我们在删除内容方面的确切政策界限。现在它肯定已经到了一个点，你知道，我感觉在构建那些AI系统的旅程开始时，有很多推动力。
There's saying, okay, you've got to do more. It's clearly a lot more bad content that people aren't reporting or that you're not getting to, and you need to get more effective at that. And I was pretty sympathetic to that. But then I think at some point along the way, there started to be almost equal issues on both sides of, okay, actually you're kind of taking down too much stuff, right? Or some of the stuff is borderline, and it wasn't really bothering anyone and then report it. So is that really an issue that you need to take down?
有一个说法，好吧，你需要做得更多。明显还有很多更糟糕的内容没有被举报，或者你还没有处理到，你需要更有效地解决这个问题。开始我非常理解这个观点。但是在某个时候，似乎两边的问题几乎相等了，对吧，实际上你正在删除太多的内容？或者某些内容接近边缘，但对任何人都没有造成麻烦，那你需要将其举报吗？所以，这真的是一个需要删除的问题吗？
There's still the critique on the other side too, where a lot of people think we're not doing enough. So it's become, as we built the technical capacity, I think it becomes more philosophically interesting, almost where you want to be on the line. And I just think like you don't want one person making those decisions.
还有另一方面的批评，许多人认为我们做得还不够。因此，随着我们建立技术能力，我认为这变得更具哲学意义，几乎是你想要处在哪条线上。而且，我认为你不想让一个人做出这些决定。
So we've also tried to innovate in terms of building out this independent oversight board, which has people who are dedicated to free expression, but from around the world, who people can appeal cases to. So a lot of the most controversial cases basically go to them and they make the final binding decision on how we should handle that.
所以我们也尝试在建立这个独立监管委员会方面进行创新，委员会有来自全球各地专门从事自由表达工作的人员，人们可以向他们申诉案件。所以很多最具争议的案件都会交给他们，他们做出最终有约束力的决定，指导我们如何处理该案件。
And then of course, their decisions, we then try to figure out what the principles are behind those and encode them into the algorithms. And how are those people chosen, which you're outsourcing a difficult decision? Yeah, the initial people, we chose a handful of chairs for the group. And we basically chose the people for a commitment to free expression and like a broad understanding of human rights and the trade-offs around free expression. But fundamentally people who are going to lean towards free expression. To towards freedom of speech. Yeah.
然后当然，他们的决策，我们会尝试找出背后的原则，并将其编码成算法。那么这些人是如何选择的呢？你们外包了一个艰难的决策？是的，最初我们为这个小组选择了一些主席。我们基本上选择那些致力于自由表达和广泛了解围绕自由表达的人权与权衡的人。但根本上是倾向于自由表达、言论自由的人。是的。
So there's also this idea of fact checkers, so jumping around to the misinformation questions actually during COVID, which is an exceptionally speaking of pluralization. Yes, I've gotten to, can I speak to the COVID thing? Yes.
嗯，还有这个事实核查人员的想法，因此在COVID期间跳来跳去回答不正确的问题，这实际上特别提到了复数化。是的，我到过一些，我能说说COVID这件事吗？是的。
So one of the hardest set of questions around free expression, because you asked about Georgetown is my stance fundamentally changed. And the answer to that is no, my stance has not changed. It is fundamentally the same as when I was talking about Georgetown from a philosophical perspective.
这是关于自由表达的一组最困难的问题之一，因为你问到乔治城的立场是否发生了根本性变化。答案是没有，我的立场没有变化。从哲学角度来看，我的立场与我谈论乔治城时基本相同。
The challenge with free speech is that everyone agrees that there is a line where if you're actually about to do physical harm to people that there should be restrictions. I mean, there's the famous Supreme Court historical example of like you can't yell, fire, and a crowded theater.
言论自由面临的挑战在于，大家都认同存在这样一条界限，即如果你真的准备对人们造成身体伤害，就应该受到限制。我的意思是，有个著名的最高法院历史案例，就是你不能在拥挤的电影院里大喊“火灾”。
The thing that everyone agrees on is what is the definition of real harm? Where I think some people think, okay, this should only be a very literal, I mean, take it back to the bullying conversation we were just having. There is a just harm if the person is about to hurt themselves because they've been bullied so hard, or is it actually harm, like as they're being bullied?
大家都同意的是什么是真正的伤害定义？我认为有些人认为，这应该只是非常字面意思上的，比如我们刚才谈到的欺凌问题。如果一个人因为被欺凌得太厉害而想要伤害自己，那就是正当的伤害，还是其实是在被欺凌时就是伤害？
And kind of at what point in the spectrum is that, and that's the part that there's not agreement on. But I think what people agree on pretty broadly is that when there is an acute threat, that it does make sense from a societal perspective to tolerate less speech that could be potentially harmful in that acute situation.
那个问题是在频谱的哪个位置，在这个方面人们意见不一致。但我认为人们普遍会同意，当存在严重威胁时，从社会的角度来看，容忍潜在有害的言论是没有道理的。
So I think where COVID got very difficult is, I don't think anyone expected this to be going on for years. But if you'd kind of asked the opriory, would a global pandemic where a lot of people are dying and catching this, is that an emergency that where you'd kind of consider it that it's problematic to basically yell, fire, and a crowded theater? I think that that probably passes that test. So I think that's a very tricky situation, but I think the fundamental commitment to free expression is there.
我认为COVID变得非常困难的地方在于，没人预料到这将持续多年。但如果你问起先前的观点，全球大流行病导致许多人死亡和感染，这是一种紧急情况，你会认为在拥挤的剧院里大喊“着火了”可能会引起问题吗？我认为这可能会通过这个测试。所以我认为这是一个非常棘手的情况，但我认为对于言论自由的基本承诺依然存在。
And that's what I believe. And again, I don't think you start this company unless you care about people being able to express themselves as much as possible. But I think that that's the question. Right? How do you define what the harm is and how acute that is? And what are the institutions that define that harm?
这就是我所相信的。再次强调，我认为您不会创办这家公司，如果您不关心人们能够尽可能地表达自己。但我认为这就是问题所在。对吗？您该如何定义伤害是什么以及其的严重程度？而定义伤害的机构是什么？
A lot of the criticism is that the CDC, the WHO, the institutions we've come to trust as a civilization to give the line of what is and isn't harm in terms of health policy have failed in many ways and small ways and in big ways depending on who you ask. And then the perspective of meta and Facebook is like, well, where the hell do I get the information of what is and isn't misinformation?
很多批评意见认为疾病控制中心、世界卫生组织以及我们作为文明社会所依赖的机构在健康政策方面的界定对于有害与否方面的问题在很多情况下，被不同人群以不同方式进行了失败和偏差。而且，从元透视和 Facebook 的角度看，我们会有这样的疑问：到底从哪里能够获得真正有用的信息和哪些是误导？
So it's a really difficult place to be in, but it's great to hear that you're leaning towards freedom of speech on this aspect. And again, I think this actually calls to the fact that we need to reform institutions that help keep an open mind of what isn't misinformation. And misinformation has been used to bully on the issue.
所以这是一个非常困难的处境，但很高兴听到您在这方面倾向于言论自由。而且，我认为这实际上呼吁我们改革有助于保持对不是误导信息的开放思想的机构。误导信息已经成为欺凌这个问题的工具。
I mean, I just have friends with Joe Rogan and he's called as a, I remember hanging out with him in Vegas and somebody else stops spreading misinformation. I mean, and there's a lot of people that follow him that believe he's not spreading misinformation. Like you can't just not acknowledge the fact that there's a large number of people that have a different definition of misinformation.
我的意思是，我只是和乔·罗根交朋友，他被誉为......我记得在拉斯维加斯和他一起玩，还有别人停止散布错误信息。我的意思是，有很多人跟随他，认为他没有散布错误信息。你不能不承认有很多人对错误信息有不同的定义。
That's such a tough place to be. Like who do you listen to? Do you listen to quote unquote experts who gets, as a person who was a PhD, I gotta say, I mean, I'm not sure I know what defines an expert, especially in a new, in a totally new pandemic or a new catastrophic event, especially when politics is involved and especially when the news are the media involved that can propagate sort of outrageous narratives and thereby make a lot of money. Like what the hell? Where is the source of truth? And then everybody turns to Facebook. It's like, please tell me what the source of truth is.
这真是个困难的处境。像是谁听呢？听所谓的专家吗？作为一个拥有博士学位的人，我必须说，我不确定我知道什么定义了专家，特别是在一个全新的大流行病或灾难性事件的情况下，特别是在政治和媒介涉及的情况下，而这些媒介可以传播出荒谬的叙述，从而赚取大量资金。这到底是怎么回事？真正的真相来源在哪里？然后每个人都转向Facebook，像是请告诉我真相的来源。
Well, how would you handle this if you were in my position? Is very, very, very, very difficult. I would say I would more speak about how difficult the choices are and be transparent about like what the hell do you do with this? Like here, you got exactly asked the exact question you just asked me, but to the broader public. Like okay, yeah, you guys tell me what to do. So like crowdsource it.
嗯，如果你处在我的位置，你会如何处理这个问题呢？真的，真的，真的，真的很难。我认为我会更多地谈论这些选择有多么困难，并且透明地谈论，这到底怎么办？就像你刚才问我的那个问题，但是向更广泛的公众提出。比如说，好啊，你们告诉我该怎么做。所以像众包一样去解决。
And then the other aspect is when you spoke really eloquently about the fact that there's this going back and forth and now there's a feeling like you're censoring a little bit too much. And so I would lean, I would try to be ahead of that feeling. I would now lean towards freedom of speech and say, you know, we're not the ones that are going to define misinformation. Let it be a public debate. Let the idea stand.
然后另一个方面是你非常雄辩地谈到来回摇摆，现在有一种感觉好像你正在过度审查。因此，我会倾向于提前感受到这种感觉。我现在会倾向于言论自由，说，你知道的，我们不是那些定义错误信息的人。让它成为公开辩论。让这个想法存在。
And I actually place, you know, this idea of misinformation, I place the responsibility on the poor communication skills of scientists. They should be in the battlefield of ideas and everybody who is spreading information against the vaccine, they should not be censored.. They should be talked with and you should show the data. You should have open discussion as opposed to rolling your eyes and saying, I'm the expert. I know what I'm talking about.
实际上，我认为误导的思想是科学家沟通技巧不好的责任。他们应该参与思想战场，每个反对疫苗的信息传播者都不应该被审查。他们应该进行谈话，并展示数据。你应该进行开放的讨论，而不是翻翻眼睛说：“我是专家。我知道我在说什么。”
No, you need to convince people. It's a battle of ideas. So that's the whole point of freedom of speech. It's the way to defeat bad ideas with good ideas with speech. So like the responsibility here falls on the poor communication skills of scientists.
不，你需要说服人们。这是一场思想之战。因此，言论自由的整个意义就在于通过言辞的好思想打败坏思想。所以责任落在科学家通讯技巧差的问题上。
Thanks to social media scientists are not communicators. They have the power to communicate some of the best stuff I've seen about COVID and from doctors is on social media. It's a way to learn to respond really quickly to go fast for them to peer review process. And so they just need to get way better at that communication. And also by better, I don't mean just convincing. I also mean speak with humility. Don't talk down to people, all those kinds of things.
由于社交媒体的存在，科学家们现在也是沟通者。他们有能力在社交媒体上分享一些我看过的有关 COVID 的最好的东西，包括医生的意见。这是一种快速学习并迅速响应的方式，让他们能够跳过同行评审程序。因此，他们只需要在沟通方面变得更加优秀。而且，"更优秀"并不仅仅是说服别人。我还指的是要谦卑地讲话。不要轻视人，不要做出那样的事情。
And as a platform, I would say, I would step back a little bit. Not all the way, of course, because there's a lot of stuff that can cause real harm as we talked about, but you lean more towards freedom of speech because then people from a brand perspective wouldn't be blaming you for the other ills of society, which there are many. The institutions have flaws, the political divide. Obviously politicians have flaws. That's news.
作为一个平台，我想说，我会稍微退后一点。当然，不是完全退后，因为我们谈到了很多会造成真正伤害的事情，但是你会倾向于言论自由，这样从品牌的角度出发，人们就不会因社会上的其他问题指责你，这其中有很多。机构存在缺陷，政治分歧。显然，政客也有缺点。这是常识。
The media has flaws that they're all trying to work with. And because of the central place of Facebook in the world, all of those flaws somehow kind of propagate to Facebook. And you're sitting there as Plato, the philosopher, have to answer to some of the most difficult questions being asked of human civilization. So I don't know. Maybe this is an American answer, though, to lean towards freedom of speech. I don't know if that applies globally.
媒体存在缺陷，他们都在努力改进。由于Facebook在全球的核心地位，所有这些缺陷都在某种程度上传播到了Facebook上。你就像哲学家柏拉图一样坐在那里，不得不回答人类文明中最困难的一些问题。所以我不知道，这可能是美国的回答，倾向于言论自由。我不知道这是否适用于全球。
So yeah, I don't know. But transparency and saying, I think as a technologist, one of the things I sense about Facebook and matter when people talk about this company is they don't necessarily understand fully how difficult the problem is. You talked about AI has to catch a bunch of harmful stuff really quickly, just the sea of data you have to deal with. It's a really difficult problem. So like any of the critics, if you just hand them the helm for a week, let's see how well you can do. Like that, to me, that's definitely something that would wake people up to how difficult this problem is. If there's more transparency, saying how difficult this problem is.
所以，我不知道。但是，透明度和说实话，我认为作为一名技术人员，我所感受到的关于Facebook的事情，以及当人们谈论这家公司时，他们并不完全理解这个问题有多么困难。你谈到了AI必须快速捕捉一堆有害的东西，只是你要处理的数据海洋。这是一个非常困难的问题。所以像任何批评者一样，如果你只是把掌舵的权力交给他们一周，让我们看看你能做得多好。像这样，对我来说，肯定会唤起人们对这个问题有多么困难的认识。如果有更多的透明度，说出这个问题有多么困难。
Let me ask you about an AI front, just because you mentioned language and my in eloquence. Translation is something I wanted to ask you about. And first, just to give a shout out to the supercomputer, you've recently announced the AI research supercluster, RSC. Obviously, I'm somebody who loves the GPUs. It currently has 6,000 GPUs and VDADGX, A100s, is the systems that have in total 6,000 GPUs. And it will eventually, maybe this year, maybe soon, we'll have 16,000 GPUs. So it can do a bunch of different kinds of machine learning applications. There's a cool thing on the distributed storage aspect and all that kind of stuff.
因为你提到了语言和我的不流利，所以让我问一下你关于人工智能方面的事情。翻译是我想问你的一个问题。首先，为了向超级计算机致敬，你最近宣布了人工智能研究超级集群RSC。显然，我是一个喜欢GPU的人。目前它拥有6000个GPU和VDADGX，A100则是系统总共拥有6000个GPU的设备。而且很快（或许今年）就会最终达到16000个GPU。所以它可以完成各种不同类型的机器学习应用。在分布式存储方面还有很酷的东西等着探索。
One of the applications that I think is super exciting is translation, real-time translation. I mentioned to you that having a conversation, I speak Russian fluently, I speak English somewhat fluently. And I'm having a conversation with Vladimir Putin, say, as a use case, me, as a user coming to you, the use case. We both speak each other's language. I speak Russian, he speaks English. How can we have that communication go well with the help of AI? I think it's such a beautiful and a powerful application of AI to connect the world that bridge the gap, not necessarily to me and Putin, but people that don't have that shared language.
我认为非常令人兴奋的应用之一是翻译，实时翻译。我跟您提到，假设我和俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京进行交谈，我会流利地说俄语，相对地，我会说英语。作为使用者，我来找您解决这个应用问题。我们两个人讲不同的语言，我讲俄语，他说英语。如何利用人工智能来保证我们的交流畅顺呢？我认为这是人工智能连接世界并弥合语言差异的一个美丽且强大的应用，虽然它不一定会在我和普京之间展开，但可以让语言不同的人们之间互相沟通。
Can you just speak about your vision with translation? Because I think that's a really exciting application. If you're trying to help people connect all around the world, a lot of content is produced in one language and all these other places are interested in it. So being able to translate that just unlocks a lot of value on a day-to-day basis.
你能否讲讲你的想法，并带有翻译呢？我觉得这是一个非常令人兴奋的应用。如果你想帮助人们在全球范围内建立连接，那么很多内容都是用一种语言创建的，其他地方也很感兴趣。因此，能够进行翻译，每天都能释放出很多价值。
The AI around translation is interesting because it's gone through a bunch of iterations. But the basic state of the art is that you don't want to go through different intermediate symbolic representations of language or something like that. You basically want to be able to map the concepts and basically go directly from one language to another and you just can train bigger and bigger models in order to be able to do that.
翻译：在翻译方面，人工智能有趣之处在于它经历了一系列的迭代。但是现在最先进的状态是，你不想通过不同的中间语言符号表达来进行翻译。基本上，你想将概念映射起来，直接从一种语言转换到另一种语言，你只需要训练更大的模型就可以实现。
That's where the research supercluster comes in. It's basically a lot of the trend in machine learning. It's just you're building bigger and bigger models and you just need a lot of computation to train them. It's not that like the translation would run on the supercomputer, the training of the model which could have billions or trillions of examples of basically that. You're training models on this supercluster in days or weeks that might take a much longer period of time on a smaller cluster. So just wouldn't be practical for most teams to do.
这就是研究超级集群发挥作用的地方。基本上，这是机器学习趋势的一部分。你只是在构建越来越大的模型，你只需要大量计算来训练它们。并不是说翻译会在超级计算机上运行，而是模型的训练可能会有数十亿或数万亿个例子。在这个超级集群上训练模型只需要几天或几周，而在小集群上可能需要更长时间。因此，对于大多数团队来说，这样的做法是不切实际的。
But the translation work, we're basically getting from being able to go between about 100 languages seamlessly today to being able to go to about 300 languages in the near term. From any language to any other language. Part of the issue when you get closer to more languages is some of these get to be pretty not very popular languages where there isn't that much content in them. You end up having less data and you need to use a model that you built up around other examples. This is one of the big questions around AI is how generalizable can things be.
但我们的翻译工作基本上是从今天无缝地在大约100种语言之间转换到不久的将来能够在大约300种语言之间转换。从任何语言到另一种语言。接近更多语言的时候问题的一部分是，其中一些语言变得不太流行，其中没有太多内容。你最终会有更少的数据，需要使用你在其他例子中建立的模型。这是AI周围的一个重要问题，也就是事物可以有多普适性。
That I think is one of the things that's just exciting here from a technical perspective. But capturing, we talked about this with the metaverse capturing the magic of human to human interaction. So me and Putin, again, this is their research. It's a topic example because you actually both speak Russian and English. But in my future, I see it as a touring test. Of a kind because we would both like to have an AI that improves because I don't speak Russian that well. He doesn't speak English that well. It would be nice to outperform our abilities.
我认为从技术角度来看，这是其中一件令人兴奋的事情。但是，我们谈论到“元宇宙”的时候，我们捕捉的是人与人之间互动的魔力。所以，普京和我，这是他们的研究课题，因为我们两个都会讲俄语和英语。但在我看来，这是一种类似“图灵测试”的测试方式，因为我们都希望拥有一种能力更强的人工智能，可以帮助我们弥补自身的语言能力不足。
Sure. And that's a really nice part because I think AI can really help in translation for people that don't speak the language at all. But to actually capture the magic of the chemistry through translation, which would make the metaverse super immersive. I mean, that's exciting. You remember the barrier of language period?
当然，这是一个非常好的部分，因为我认为人工智能可以帮助那些不会说这种语言的人进行翻译，这非常有帮助。但是，要通过翻译真正捕捉化学反应的神奇之处，使元宇宙更具沉浸感，这真是令人兴奋。你还记得语言障碍的时期吗？
Yeah. So when people think about translation, I think a lot of that is, they think about text to text. But speech to speech, I think, is a whole another thing. And I mean, one of the big lessons on that, which I was referring to before, is I think early models, it's like, all right, they take speech, they translate it to text, translate the text to another language, and then kind of output that as speech in that language. And you don't want to do that. You just want to be able to go directly from speech in one language to speech in another language and build up the models to do that.
嗯，所以当人们想到翻译时，我认为很多人会想到文本翻译。但是从口语到口语的翻译，我认为是完全另一回事。我的意思是，其中一个重要经验教训就是，早期的翻译模型是这样的：他们将口语翻译为文本，再将文本翻译为另一种语言，然后用那种语言输出口语。但是你不想这样做。你只想直接从一种语言的口语翻译到另一种语言的口语，并构建对应的模型。
And I mean, I think one of the, there have been, when you look at the progress in machine learning, there have been big advances in the techniques. If some of the advances in self-supervised learning, which I know you talked to Jan about, and he's like one of the leading thinkers in this area, I just think that that stuff is really exciting. But then you couple that with the ability to just throw larger and larger amounts of compute at training these models, and you can just do a lot of things that were harder to do before.
我觉得，当你看到机器学习的进展时，有很多技术都有很大的进步。如果结合一些自我监督学习的进展，我知道你已经和Jan谈过这方面的事情，他是这个领域的领军人物之一，我认为这些东西真的很令人兴奋。而且，再加上我们能够把越来越多的计算资源用于训练这些模型，我们可以做很多以前更难以做的事情。
But we're asking more of our systems too. So, if you think about the applications that we're going to need for the metaverse, or think about it, let's talk about AR here for a second. You're going to have these glasses. They're going to look, hopefully like a normal-ish-looking pair of glasses, but they're going to be able to put holograms in the world and intermix virtual and physical objects in your scene.
但我们也对我们的系统提出了更高的要求。所以，如果你考虑到我们将需要哪些应用程序来创建元宇宙，或者我们在这里谈论一下AR。你会有一副这样的眼镜。它们希望看起来像一副相对正常的眼镜，但是它们将能够将全息图像置于世界中，并在你的场景中混合虚拟和物理对象。
And one of the things that's going to be unique about this compared to every other computing device that you've had before is that this is going to be the first computing device that has all the same signals about what's going on around you that you have. Right, so your phone, you can, I mean, you can have it take a photo or a video. But I mean, these glasses are going to, you know, whenever you activate them, they're going to be able to see what you see.
这个东西和你用过的所有其他电脑设备都不一样，最独特的就是它是第一个能和你感知到周围事物相同的信号的电脑设备。比如说，你的手机可以拍照或录像，但是这个眼镜呢，每次你使用它，它都能像你一样看到周围的事物。
From your perspective, they're going to be able to hear what you hear because they're the microphones and all that are going to be right around where your ears are. So, you're going to want an AI assistant. That's a new kind of AI assistant that can basically help you process the world from this first person perspective or from the perspective that you have.
从你的角度来看，由于麦克风将放置在你耳朵周围，他们将能听到你所听到的。因此，你需要一个人工智能助手。这是一种全新的人工智能助手，可以帮助你从第一人称或你的视角处理世界。
And the utility of that is going to be huge. And the kinds of AI models that we're going to need are going to be just, I don't know, there's a lot that we're going to need to basically make advances in. But I mean, but that's why I think these concepts of the metaverse and the advances in AI are so fundamentally interlinked that I mean, they're kind of enabling each other.
这种东西的实用性会非常巨大。我们将需要各种各样的人工智能模型来实现这些进展，但实际上我们需要的还有很多，也不确定是什么样子的。不过，我认为元宇宙和人工智能的概念之所以如此基本地相互关联，就是彼此之间具有启发作用。
Yeah, like the world builder is a really cool idea. Like you can be like a Bob Ross. I'm going to put a little tree right here. Yeah. I mean, I need a little tree. And then, but at scale, like enriching your experience in all kinds of ways. You mentioned the assistant too. That's really interesting how you can have AI assistants helping you out on different levels of sort of intimacy of communication. It could be just like scheduling or it could be like almost like therapy. Clearly, I need some.
是的，就像造世界的想法真的很酷。就像你可以像Bob Ross一样，我要在这儿放一棵小树。是的，我的意思是，我需要一棵小树。但在规模上，可以以各种方式丰富你的体验。你也提到了助手，这真的很有趣，你可以在不同层次的沟通中获得AI助手的帮助。它可以仅仅是日程安排，也可以是近乎治疗。显然，我需要一些。
So let me ask you, you're one of the most successful people ever. You built an incredible company that has a lot of impact. What advice do you have for young people today? How to live a life that can be proud of how to build something that can have a big positive impact on the world?
那让我问问你，你是最成功的人之一。你创建了一家令人惊叹的企业，对世界产生了巨大的影响。你有什么建议给今天的年轻人呢？如何生活才能值得自豪？如何创造一些有着积极影响的东西，对世界产生广泛的影响力？
Well, let's break that down because I think you're proud of have a big positive impact. Well, you're actually listening. How to live your life are actually three different things that I think. They could line up. But, and also like what age of people are you talking to? Because I mean, I can like.
嗯，让我们仔细分析一下，因为我认为你为有很大的积极影响感到骄傲。嗯，你真的在认真倾听。我认为生活的方式实际上有三种不同的方式，它们可能会共存。另外，你是在和什么年龄段的人交流呢？我是说，我可以……
High school in college. So you don't really know what you're doing, but you're dream big. And you really have a chance to do something unprecedented. Yeah. So I guess for people my age.
在大学里的高中生活。所以你并不真正知道自己在做什么，但是你有很大的梦想。你真的有机会做一些前所未有的事情。是的，我想对于和我一样年龄的人来说。
Okay. So let's maybe maybe start with the kind of most philosophical and abstract version of this. Yes. Every night when I put my daughters to bed, we go through this thing. And like, they call it the good night thing. Because we're basically what we talk about at night. And I just I go through them. Sounds like a good show. That's the good night. Thanks. Yeah, Chris Hill is always asking, she's like, can I get good night things? Like, I don't know. We go to bed too early. But it's. But I basically go through with Max and and Auggie. What are the things that are most important in life? Right? That I just it's like, what do I want them to remember and just have like really ingrained in them as they grow up? And it's health. Right? And making sure that you take care of yourself and keep yourself in good shape. Loving friends and family. Right? Because, you know, having the relationships, the family and making time for friends, I think is perhaps one of the most important things. And then the third is maybe a little more amorphous, but it is something that you're excited about for the future.
好的。让我们也许从这个最哲学和抽象的版本开始。是的，每晚当我给女儿们洗漱睡觉时，我们会做这个东西。就像，他们称之为晚安事情。因为我们基本上晚上所谈论的就是这个。然后我就通过它们。听起来像个不错的节目。那就是个晚安了。谢谢。是啊，克里斯·希尔总是在问，她说，我能得到晚安事情吗？我不知道。我们睡得太早了。但这基本上就是我和马克斯以及奥吉一起谈论的，什么是生命中最重要的东西？对吧？我就是希望他们记得并在成长中真正深深烙印在他们心中的东西。这其中包括健康。对，确保照顾好自己，保持身体健康。还有爱的家人和朋友。对，因为有着家庭和与朋友相处的关系，在我看来可能是最重要的事情之一。然后第三个也许有点模糊，但是它是你对未来感到兴奋的东西。
And when I'm talking to a four year old, often I'll ask her what she's excited about for tomorrow or the week ahead. But I think for most people, it's really hard. I mean, the world is a heavy place. And I think like the way that we navigate it is that we have things that we're looking forward to. So whether it is building AR glasses for the future or being able to celebrate my 10 year wedding anniversary with my wife that's coming up, it's like, I think people, you know, you have things that you're looking forward to. Or for the girls, it's often I want to see mom in the morning. Right? It's like, but it's like that's a really critical thing. And then the last thing is I ask them every day, what did you do today to help someone? Because I just think that that's a really critical thing is like, like it's easy to kind of get caught up in yourself and kind of stuff that's really far down the road. But like did you do something just concrete today to help someone? And you know, it can just be as simple as, okay, yeah, I helped set the table for lunch or, you know, this other kid in our school was having a hard time with something and I like helped explain it to him. But, but those are that sort of like, if you were to boil down my overall life philosophy into what I try to impart to my kids, those are the things that I think are really important.
当我和一个四岁的孩子交谈时，我会问她明天或未来一周会有什么激动人心的事情。但对大多数人来说，这确实很难。我的意思是，这个世界很沉重。我们通常通过期待某些事情来应对它。所以，无论是为未来打造AR眼镜，还是与即将到来的10年结婚纪念日和妻子一起庆祝，我认为人们都会有期待。对于女孩来说，通常是期待在早上见到妈妈。这是非常重要的事情。最后，我每天都会问他们，你今天为别人做了什么？因为我认为这是非常重要的。很容易陷入自我中心的状态，而忽略了帮助他人的机会。你可以做一些具体的事情帮助别人。可能只是简单的事情，比如为午餐摆桌子，或者帮助学校里的另一个孩子解决难题。但这些就是我尝试向我的孩子传达的生活哲学。
So okay, so let's say college. So if you're graduate in college, probably more practical advice. It's almost very focused on people.
好的，我们来谈一谈大学。如果你是在大学毕业的，那么可能需要更多实用的建议。这些建议会更加关注个人。
And I think the most important decision you're probably going to make if you're in college is who you surround yourself with because you become like the people you surround yourself with.
我觉得在大学里你可能会做出最重要的决定是，和谁相处，因为你会成为你所交往的人的样子。
And I sort of have this hiring heuristic at meta, which is that I will only hire someone to work for me if I could see myself working for them. Not necessarily that I want them to run the company because I like my job, but like, but in an alternate universe, if it was their company and I was looking to go work somewhere, would I be happy to work for them?
我在meta有这样一种雇用原则，即我只会雇用那些我能想象自己为之工作的人。并不一定是因为我想让他们来经营公司，因为我喜欢我的工作，但在另一个宇宙中，如果那是他们的公司，我是否会很高兴为他们工作呢？
And I think that that's a helpful heuristic to help balance. When you're building something like this, there's a lot of pressure to, you know, you want to build out your teams because there's a lot of stuff that you need to get done..
我认为这是一个有帮助的启发式方法，有助于平衡。当你正在构建这样的东西时，会面临很大的压力，因为你想扩展你的团队，因为有很多需要完成的事情。
And then everyone always says, don't compromise on quality, but there's this question of, okay, how do you know that someone is good enough?
然后每个人总是说，不要在质量上妥协，但是有这样一个问题，那就是，好的水平到底如何判断？
And I think my answer is I would want someone to be to be on my team if I would work for them. But I think it's actually a pretty similar answer to like, if you were going to go, if you were choosing friends or a partner or something like that.
我觉得我的答案是，如果我为他们工作，我希望有人能和我一起工作。但我觉得这个答案其实非常类似于，如果你选择朋友或伴侣之类的东西。如果有必要，可以改写一下。
So when you're kind of in college, trying to figure out what your circle is going to be, trying to figure out, you know, you're evaluating different job opportunities. Who are the people, even if there are going to be peers in what you're doing, who are the people who in an alternate universe, you would want to work for them because you think you're going to learn a lot from them because they know, because they are kind of values aligned on the things that you care about.
当你在大学时，试图弄清你的圈子会是什么，试图评估不同的工作机会时。有些人即使是你的同龄人，如果在另一个世界上，你也想为他们工作，因为你认为你会从他们那里学到很多东西，因为他们知道并且和你关心的事情价值观基本相同。
And they're going to like, and they're going to push you, but also they know different things and have different experiences that are kind of more of what you want to become like over time.
他们会喜欢你，也会推动你，但也知道各种不同的事情和经历，那些会随着时间慢慢影响你成为一个更好的人。
So I don't know. I think probably people are too, in general, objective focused and maybe not focused enough on the connections and the people who they're, who they're basically building relationships.
所以我不知道。我认为，一般来说，人们可能太专注于客观目标，而不够关注他们正在建立关系的人和联系。
I don't know what it says about me, but my place in Austin now has seven, like, and robots. So I'm surrounded myself by robots, which is probably something I should look into.
我不知道这说明了什么，但我的奥斯汀住所现在有七个，像和机器人。所以我现在被机器人包围着，这可能是我需要深入了解的东西。
What kind of world would you like to see your daughters grow up in even after you're gone?
你希望你的女儿在你离开后生长的世界是什么样子的？
Well, I think one of the promises of all the stuff that is going to build now is that it can be a world where more people have, can just live out their imagination.
我认为现在要建造的所有东西都有一个承诺，那就是它可以成为一个更多人可以仅仅依靠想象力来生活的世界。
But one of my favorite quotes, I think it was Attributes to Picasso. It's that all children are artists and the challenge is how do you remain one when you grow up?
我最喜欢的一句名言是来自毕加索的：所有的孩子都是艺术家，问题在于你长大后如何保持这种状态？
And I mean, if you have kids, you, this is pretty clear. I mean, they're just like wonderful imaginations.
我是说，如果你有孩子，那么这很清楚。他们就像美妙的想象一样。
And part of what I think is going to be great about the creator economy and the metaverse and all the stuff is like this notion around that a lot more people in the future are going to get to work doing creative stuff.
我想创作者经济和元宇宙等领域的众多事物中，很棒的一点是更多的人将来会从事创意工作。这种想法越来越流行，在未来将会更为盛行。
And what I think today we would just consider traditional labor or service. And I think that that's awesome. And like, I mean, that's like what a lot of what people are here to do is like collaborate together, work together, think of things that you want to build and go do it.
今天我们认为的传统劳动或服务，我认为那是很棒的。而且，就像很多人在这里的目的一样，就是要相互合作、共同工作，想出你想建造的东西并去做。
And I don't know. One of the things that I just think is striking. So I like, I teach my, my, my daughters, like some basic coding with scratch. I mean, they're still obviously really young.
我不知道。其中一件我认为非常引人注目的事情是，我喜欢用scratch教我的女儿一些基础编码。当然，她们现在还非常年轻。
But you know, I think of coding as building, right? It's like when I'm, when I'm coding, I'm like building something that I want to exist.
但你知道，我认为编码就像建造一样，对吧？就好像当我在编码的时候，我就是在建造一些我想要存在的东西。
But in my, my youngest daughter, you know, she's very musical and, and, and pretty artistic. And she thinks about coding as art.
但是在我年纪最小的女儿身上，你知道的，她非常有音乐天赋、还很有艺术感。她认为编程就像艺术一样。
She calls it code art, not the code, but the output of what she is making. It's like she's just very interesting visually and what she can kind of output and how it can move around.
她把它叫做码艺术，不是代码本身，而是她所制作的输出物。就像她在视觉上非常有趣，以及她所能输出的以及它们如何移动。
And do we need to fix that? Are we good? We have to clap and do we have to clap? Alexa. Yeah. So I was, I was just talking about, you know, Aggie and her code art.
我们需要解决这个问题吗？我们行吗？我们需要鼓掌吗？Alexa。是的。我刚刚在谈论Aggie和她的代码艺术。
But I mean, to me, this is like a beautiful thing, right? The, the notion that like for me coding was this functional thing. And I enjoyed it. And it, it like helped build something utilitarian.
我的意思是，对我来说，编程就像一件美丽的事情，对吧？在我眼里，编程是一种实用的东西，我很喜欢它。它帮助创造了一些实用的东西。
But that for the next generation of people, it will be even more a, an expression of their kind of imagination and artistic sense for what they want to exist.
但对于下一代人来说，它将更多地表现出他们的想象力和艺术感，以展现他们想要存在的东西。
So I don't know if that happens, if we can help bring about this world where, you know, a lot more people can, that that's like their existence going forward is being able to basically create and, and live out, you know, all these different kinds of art.
我不知道这是否会发生，是否能帮助实现这样一个世界，让更多的人能够创造和表现各种艺术，成为他们未来存在的一部分。
I just think that that's like a beautiful and wonderful thing. And we'll be very freeing for humanity to spend more of our time on the things that matter to us.
我认为那是一件美丽而奇妙的事情。它将给人类更多的自由，让我们有更多时间去关注我们认为重要的事情。
Yeah, a lot more and more people to express their art in the full meaning of that word.. Yeah. Beautiful vision.
是的，越来越多的人在完全意义上表达他们的艺术。是的。这是一个美丽的愿景。
We mentioned that you are mortal. Are you afraid of death? Do you think about your mortality? And are you afraid of it? You didn't sign up for this on a podcast. No, I mean, that's, it's an interesting question.
我们提到了你是有一天会死的。你害怕死亡吗？你会想到自己有一天会死吗？你害怕吗？我知道这不是你在播客里注册时所想的问题，但这是一个有趣的问题。
I, I'm definitely aware of it. I, I do a fair amount of like extreme sport type stuff. So, so like, so I'm definitely aware of it. And I, and you're flirting with it a bit. I, I train hard. I mean, so it's like if I'm going to go out in like, yeah, a 15 foot wave, then well, then it's like, all right, I'll make sure we have the right safety here and like make sure that I'm like, use that spot and all that stuff, but like, but, you know, I mean, you, the risk is still there. It takes some head blows along the way. Yes.
我，我绝对意识到这一点。我，我会做一些极限运动类型的事情。所以，我绝对意识到这一点。而且，你也稍微尝试了一下。我，我会刻苦训练。我的意思是，如果我要去面对什么高达15英尺的浪潮，我会确保我们有正确的安全措施，也会确保我使用适当的地点等等，但是，你知道，风险仍然存在。在这过程中，我可能会受到一些打击。
But definitely aware of it, definitely would like to stay safe. I have a lot of stuff that I want to build and want to, does it freak you out that it's finite though? That there's a deadline when it's all over. And there'll be a time when your daughters are around and you're gone.
我绝对知道这一点，绝对想要保持安全。我有很多想要建造和实现的东西，但它会让你感到不安，因为它是有限的吗？当一切都结束时，会有截止日期。有一天，当你不在的时候，你的女儿们还会在身边。
I don't know that. Oh, that doesn't freak me out. I think constraints are helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The finiteness is makes, makes ice cream taste more delicious and the fact that it's going to be over. There's something about that with the metaverse too. You want, we talked about this identity earlier, like having just one with like NFTs. There's something powerful about the constraint of finiteness or uniqueness that this moment is singular in history.
我不知道那个。哦，那不会吓到我。我认为限制有帮助。是的。是的。是的。有限性使冰激凌更加美味，因为它会结束。在元宇宙中也有关于这个的一些东西。我们之前谈过身份，像只有一个NFT那样。有限或唯一性的约束是有力量的，这一刻在历史上是独一无二的。
But I mean, a lot of, you know, as you go through different waves of technology, I think a lot of what is interesting is what becomes in practice infinite or kind of, there can be many, many of a thing and then what ends up still being constrained. So the metaverse should hopefully allow a very large number or maybe in practice, hopefully close to an infinite amount of expression in worlds. And but we'll still only have a finite amount of time.
我的意思是，你知道的，随着科技不断发展，很多有趣的事情会变得无限或者说会变成许许多多，但最终会有一些限制。所以，元宇宙希望能够在虚拟世界中提供大量的表达方式，甚至可以说是无限的表达。但我们仍然只拥有有限的时间。
Yes. I think living longer I think is good. And obviously all of my, our philanthropic work is, it's not focused on longevity, but it is focused on trying to achieve what I think is a possible goal in this century, which is to be able to cure, prevent or manage all diseases.
是的，我认为活得更久很好。显然我的，我们的慈善工作并不是专注于寿命的延长，而是致力于实现我认为这个世纪可能实现的目标，即能够治愈、预防或管理所有疾病。
So I certainly think people kind of getting sick and dying is a bad thing because I'm, you know, dedicating and will solve my capital towards advancing research in that area to push on that, which I mean we can do a whole, another one of these podcasts about that. Exactly. Because that's, so what people should know.
我肯定认为人们生病和死亡是一件坏事，因为我会把我的资本投入到推进这个领域的研究中，以推动这个领域的发展。我们可以专门做一个关于这个的播客。这就是人们应该知道的。
Fascinating topic. With your web or select chain, you formed the chance, Zuckerberg initiative, give away 99% or pledge to give away 99% of Facebook, no matter shares. I mean, like you said, we could talk forever about all the exciting things you're working on there, including the sort of moonshot of eradicating disease by the mid century mark or I don't actually know if you're going to ever eradicate it, but I think you can get to a point where you can either cure things that happen, right?
这是一个迷人的话题。通过你的网站或选择链，你创造了机会，即扎克伯格计划，放弃控制Facebook的99％的股份或答应放弃99％的股份。就像你说的，我们可以永远谈论你正在从事的所有令人兴奋的事情，包括在本世纪中期消除疾病的“登月计划”，或者我实际上不知道你是否会消除它，但我认为你可以达到一个可以治愈发生的事情的程度，对吧？
So people get diseases, but you can cure them, prevent is probably closest to eradication or just be able to manage is sort of like ongoing things that are, you know, not going to ruin your life. And I think that that's possible. I think saying that there's going to be no disease at all probably is not possible within the next several decades.
所以人们会得病，但你可以治愈它们，预防可能最接近根除或只是能够管理那些持续性的事情，你知道，这些事情不会毁掉你的生活。我认为这是可能的。我认为在未来几十年内，说没有疾病可能是不可能的。
The next thing is increase the quality of life and maybe keep the fine-knitness because it makes everything taste more delicious. Maybe that's just being romantic 20th century human. Maybe, but I mean, but it was an intentional decision to not focus on our philanthropy on like explicitly on longevity or living forever.
下一步是提高生活质量，也许保持美好的精致，因为这能让一切都更加美味。也许这只是20世纪浪漫主义人类的想法。也许是这样，但我的意思是，这是一个有意决定，不把我们的慈善重点放在长寿或永生上。
Yes. If at the moment of your death, and by the way, I like that the lights went out when we'd start talking about death, you get to meet a lot more dramatic. It does. Actually, you're closer to the mic. At the moment of your death, you get to meet God and you get to ask one question, what question would you like to ask? Or maybe a whole conversation, I don't know, it's up to you.
是的，如果在你去世的时刻，顺便说一下，我喜欢随着我们谈论死亡时灯光熄灭了，你会更加戏剧化。确实是这样。实际上，你离麦克风更近了。在你去世的时刻，你将会见上帝，并且你可以问一个问题，你想问什么问题？或者也许是整个对话，我不知道，这取决于你。
It's more dramatic when it's just one question. Well, if it's only one question and I died, I would just want to know that Priscilla and my family, like if they were going to be okay, that might depend on the circumstances of my death, but I think that in most circumstances that I can think of, that's probably the main thing that I would care about.
当只有一道问题时，更具戏剧性。嗯，如果只有一道问题而我去世了，我只想知道普丽希拉和我的家人是否会好，这可能取决于我的死亡情况，但我认为在我能想到的大多数情况下，这可能是我最关心的主要事情。
I think God will hear that question, be like, all right, fine, you get in. That's the right question. I don't know. The humility and selfishness. All right, you're right. Well, maybe they're going to be fine. Don't worry. One of the things that I think you struggle with at least is on the one hand, that's probably the most, the thing that's closest to me and maybe the most common human experience.
我想上帝会听到那个问题，然后说：“好的，没问题，你进去吧。那是正确的问题。”我不知道。谦逊和自私。好的，你是对的。嗯，也许他们会没事的。别担心。我认为你至少会遇到一些挣扎，一方面，那可能是最接近我的东西，也可能是最普遍的人类经验。
I don't know, one of the things that I just struggle with in terms of running this large enterprise is like, should the thing that I care more about be that responsibility? And I think it's shifted over time..
我不知道，作为经营这个大企业的人，我一直在努力的一个问题是，我更关心的是责任吗？我认为随着时间的推移，我的想法已经改变了。
I mean, before I really had a family that was like the only thing I cared about and I had this point, I mean, I care deeply about it, but like, yeah, I think that that's not as obvious of a question.
我指的是在我真正拥有家庭之前，那就是我唯一关心的事情。我是说，我非常关心这件事，但是，是的，我认为这不是一个显而易见的问题。
Yeah, we humans are weird. You get this ability to impact millions of lives and it's definitely something, billions of lives is something you care about, but the weird humans that are closest to us, those are the ones that mean the most and I suppose that's the dream of the metaverse is to connect small groups like that where you can have those intimate relationships.
是啊，我们人类太奇怪了。你拥有了影响数百万人生命的能力，这绝对是一件重要的事情，亿万人的生命更是你所关心的；但最靠近我们的奇怪人类，却是最重要的，我想这就是元宇宙之梦的所在，连接那些小群体，让你可以拥有那种亲密的关系。
Let me ask you the big ridiculous. Well, and to be able to be close, not just based on who you happen to be next to. I think that's what the internet is already doing is allowing you to spend more of your time not physically proximate.
让我问你个很荒谬的问题。好吧，要想变得亲近，不仅仅是基于你身边的人。我认为互联网已经在做的事情就是让你花更多时间不必亲近在一起。
I mean, I always think when you think about the metaverse people ask this question with the real world, it's like, the virtual world versus the real world. It's like, no, the real world is a combination of the virtual world and the physical world.
我是说，我一直认为当你思考元宇宙时，人们总是将这个问题与现实世界联系起来，就像是虚拟世界与现实世界之间的对比。但事实上，真实的世界是虚拟世界和物理世界的结合体。
But I think over time, as we get more technology, the physical world is becoming less of a percent of the real world. And I think that that opens up a lot of opportunities for people because you know, you can work in different places. You can stay more close to, stay closer to people who are in different places. Yeah, that's good. I'm moving barriers of geography and then barriers of language. Yeah. That's a beautiful vision.
我认为随着科技的进步，物理世界的比重正在变小，这为人们带来了很多机会，因为你可以在不同的地方工作，也可以与不同地方的人保持更近的距离。是的，这很好。我打破了地理障碍和语言障碍。是的，这是一个美好的愿景。
Big ridiculous question. What do you think is the meaning of life?
你认为人生的意义是什么，这个问题有点儿夸张啊。
I think that there are probably a couple of different ways that I would go at this. But I think it gets back to this last question that we talked about about the duality between you have the people around you who you care the most about.
我觉得可能有几种不同的方法可以处理这个问题。但我认为这让我们回到了我们上次谈论的最后一个问题，即你所关心的人和你周围的人之间的二元性。
And then there's like this bigger thing that maybe you're building. And I think that in my own life, I mean, I sort of think about this tension.
然后就像是你可能正在构建的更大的东西。在我自己的生活中，我认为我思考这种张力。
But when it's look, I started this whole company and my life's work is around human connection. So I think it's intellectually probably the thing that I go to first is just that human connection is the meaning. And I think that it's a thing that our society probably systematically undervalues.
但是，当涉及到这个话题时，我始终认为我的整个公司以及我的人生事业都围绕着人际关系展开。因此，我认为从理智上来看，人际关系就是我的首要认知。而且，我认为这是我们的社会通常系统地低估的一件事。
I mean, I just remember when I was growing up and in school, it's like, do your homework and then go play with your friends after. And it's like, no, what if playing with your friends is the point? It sounds like an argument your daughter would make.
我的意思是，我记得当我在成长和上学的时候，就像是，先做完作业再去和朋友玩。但是，真的没有关系吗？我觉得和朋友玩才是重点。这听起来像是你女儿会提出的观点。
Well, I mean, I don't know. I just think it's interesting. I don't know if it doesn't even matter, man. Well, I think it's interesting because it's, you know, people, I think people tend to think about that stuff as wasting time.
嗯，我的意思是，我不知道。我只是觉得很有趣。我不知道这是否重要，伙计。嗯，我觉得这很有趣，因为你知道，人们往往会认为这些东西是浪费时间。
Or that's like what you do in the free time that you have. But like, what if that's actually the point? Yeah. So that's one.
或者那就像你在闲暇时间做的事情一样。不过，如果这实际上就是重点呢？是的，那就是其中之一。
But here's maybe a different way of counting out this, which is maybe a more like religious in nature. I mean, I always like, there's a rabbi who I've studied with, who kind of gave me this, we were talking through Genesis and the Bible and the Torah and they're basically walking through.
这里也许有一种不同的计数方式，可能更具宗教性质。我的意思是，我总是喜欢和一个我一起学习过的拉比谈论起源、圣经和托拉，并且我们基本上是一步步地讲解。
It's like, okay, you go through the seven days of creation and it's basically, it's like, why does the Bible start there? Right? It's like, it could have started anywhere, right, in terms of like how to live.
就像你经历了七天的创世纪，基本上说，它就是，为什么圣经从那里开始呢？对吧？就像，它本来可以从任何地方开始的，对吧，就像如何生活。
But basically it starts with talking about how God created people in his, her image. But the Bible starts by talking about how God created everything. So I actually think that there's like a compelling argument that I think I've always just found meaningful and inspiring that a lot of the point of what sort of religion has been telling us that we should do is to create and build things.
基本上，它从谈论上帝如何用他/她的形象创造人类开始。但圣经则是从谈论上帝创造了所有事物开始。因此，我实际上认为有一个引人入胜的论点，它一直让我感到有意义和鼓舞，那就是宗教告诉我们要做什么的重点很大程度上是创造和建造事物。
So these things are not necessarily odds. I mean, I think like, I mean, that's, and I think probably to some degree you'd expect me to say something like this because I've dedicated my life to creating things that help people connect some and that's sort of the fusion of, of, I mean, getting back to what we talked about earlier.
这些事情并不一定是对立的。我的意思是，我觉得，我是说，这可能让你有点意料之外，因为我一直致力于创造能够帮助人们连接的事物，这种融合就是我们之前谈论的。
It's, I mean, what I studied in the school or psychology and computer science, right? So it's, I mean, these are, these are like the two themes that I care about. But I don't know for me. That's what, that's kind of what I think about. That's what matters. To create and to, to love, which is the ultimate form of connection.
我是说，在学校学的心理学和计算机科学，对吧？所以这些是我关心的两个主题。但我不知道对我来说怎么样。那是我所思考的，那是最重要的事情。创造和爱是最终的连接形式。
I think this is one hell of an amazing replay experience in the metaverse. So whoever is using our avatars years from now, I hope you had fun. And thank you for talking today. Thank you.
我认为这是一个非常惊人的元宇宙回放体验。无论是谁在未来几年使用我们的虚拟形象，我希望你们玩得开心。感谢你们今天的交流，谢谢。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Zuckerberg to support this podcast. Please check out our sponsors in the description.
谢谢收听与马克·扎克伯格的对话以支持这个播客。请在描述中查看我们的赞助商。
And now let me leave you with the end of the poem "If" by Rajak Kipling.
现在让我和你分享 Kipling 的诗歌 "If" 的结尾。
If you can talk with crowds and keep you virtue or walk with kings, they'll lose the common touch.
如果你能够与群众交谈并保持你的美德，或者与国王一起行走，他们将失去与普通人的联系。
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you. If all men count with you, but none too much.
如果既没有敌人也没有爱人能够伤害你，如果所有人都重视你，但没有人过分重视你。
If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run, yours is the earth and everything that's in it.
如果你能用六十秒的奔跑来填满无情的一分钟，那么世界和其中的一切都属于你。
And which is more, you'll be a man, my son.
而且更重要的是，你会成为一个男人，我的儿子。
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
谢谢你的倾听，希望下次能再见到你。