Huberman on the Emerging Science Around Psychedelics

The Jorogan Experience. This is now really big science and Pharma is moving in very quickly. What they're trying to do is create non-psychedelic psychedelics. Figure out what sorts of chemistry changes that doesn't give you hallucinations and create new antidepressants. That's what they want to do with psilocybin. Because doing two journeys on a drug and then you're done, that's not good business.

《乔·罗根体验》现在已经成为非常重要的科学领域，制药公司也在快速进入这个领域。他们试图创造非致幻的迷幻药物，找出哪些化学变化不会引起幻觉，并创造新的抗抑郁药物。这就是他们想要利用蘑菇中的麦角硫因做的事情。因为使用一个药物只需要进行两次旅程，这不是好的商业模式。

And what I love about what Michael Paul is saying is that he's the one that's really hitting the drum on this one. He's saying, these things work. The clinical data are showing that. 65% plus success rate for what would otherwise be intractable, untreatable suicidal depression. Incredible. And now the universities are behind it. But they're behind it because laboratories are getting funded to do it.

我喜欢迈克尔·保罗所说的是他是真正在推动这件事情的人。他说，这些东西有效。临床数据表明，成功率在65%以上的无法治愈抑郁症。令人难以置信。现在大学也在支持这一点。但他们之所以支持，是因为实验室得到了资金支持。

Laboratories are getting funded to do it because there are grants. Why are there now grants from the federal government? Well, philanthropists came in early and provided money. And now the people are starting to see that there are big, big potential outcomes at the level of pharma. Now the classic psychedelics community isn't going to like that. They're like, no, this is plant medicine. It's got a hundred thousand year history or more. Indigenous people, etc. Academia and pharma don't care about that. Now I'm not.

实验室得到资助是因为有拨款。为什么政府现在提供拨款？嗯，慈善家早就提供了资金。现在人们开始意识到在制药方面有着巨大的潜力。现在传统的致幻剂社区不会喜欢这一点。他们会说，不，这是植物药。它有着一百万年或更长的历史。土著人民等等。学术和制药公司不在乎这些。现在我也不在乎。

I'm one of these people. I'm not saying they're bad and they're good. I'm saying that it's humans again. So why are universities suddenly okay with the idea of discussions about psychedelics in front of their top tier donors, the people that literally supply the blood to the university? Well because top tier donors are now really interested in psychedelics. So what drives every aspect of it from the student who's pipetting in the lab to the highest tier of administration and university all the way up to directors of NIH? It's all interconnected at the level of incentives.

我是其中一类人。我并不是说他们好或者不好。我是在说，这又是人类的表现。那么，为什么大学突然可以在最高层次的赞助人面前讨论迷幻药物的想法呢，这些赞助人实际上是大学的血液供应者？因为最高层次的赞助人现在对迷幻药物非常感兴趣。那么是什么驱动着从在实验室中进行滴定操作的学生到大学最高层行政人员和大学理事会主席再到美国国家卫生研究委员会主任的每一个方面呢？这一切都在激励因素的层面上彼此相互联系。

Right, but the top tier donors are clearly influenced by the zeitgeist and the way people have approached and thought about psychedelics has radically changed over the last ten years. Michael Paulin is one of the reasons for that. And you and Omnivore's dilemma. He had established himself as a legitimate journalist who would comb through and parse through all the data to give you a comprehensive understanding of what exactly is going on. And he went out and did them, or at least some of them, as a kind of late, the typical person and didn't come out with wearing a robe or sit in the lotus position. And he can discuss them like a journalist.

没错，但一流捐赠者明显受到时代精神的影响，而人们对迷幻剂的态度和思考方式在过去十年里发生了根本性变化。迈克尔·保琳就是这样一个原因。你和《杂食动物的困境》也是如此。他已经成为一个合法的记者，会仔细研究并解析所有数据，使你全面了解正在发生的事情。他去做了一些研究，至少有些研究，作为一般人的表现，没有穿着长袍或坐在莲花座上。他能像一名记者一样讨论它们。

Right. And then having podcasts discuss it, then you're getting these positive drug stories out to, and I don't even like calling them drugs, positive compound stories about psychedelics that are going out to millions and millions and millions of people, and you're hearing about these people, particularly soldiers who are coming back of PTSD who are having tremendous results, people with overwhelming depression, people with all sorts of problems with drug addiction and so many different ailments that are being helped in this way.

好的。然后通过播客讨论它，你可以把这些关于迷幻剂的积极化合物故事传播给数以百万计的人们。而且我甚至不想称它们为药物。这些故事激励着许多有各种问题的人们，包括患有创伤后应激障碍的士兵，以及那些备受压抑，饱受毒瘾等种种问题的人们，他们通过这种方式得到了极好的成效。

Yeah, absolutely. And look, you deserve tremendous credit here. I know you're not one to, you know, say you're going to take praise from your guests. And I'm going to just say that you've been talking about this for a long time, about the tremendous value of these things, not just for gaining new perspective, because I think in the 60s and 70s, it was, remember, it was tune in and drop out, right? Now we're talking about the use of psychedelic medicine to be able to lean into life in a healthy way.

是的，绝对如此。而且，你在这里应该得到很大的赞誉。我知道你不是那种会从客人那里接受奉承的人。我想说的是，你一直在谈论这些事情的巨大价值，不仅是为了获得新的视角，因为在60年代和70年代的时候，人们往往是“转入并退出”，对吧？现在我们讨论的是使用致幻药物来以健康的方式投入生活。

Yeah. That's the major difference. And you've really pioneered the discussion around that Michael Paul and there are others too, I realize, but you know, at a time when it was considered really wacky and out there, now it's becoming, it's headed towards mainstream medicine. And I think it's fundamentally important. I mean, I think Robin Cardard Harris's laboratory at UCSF has a paper out just today on the use of DMT for treatment of psychiatric illness.

是的。这是一个主要的区别。迈克尔·保罗你真的探索了这方面的讨论，还有其他人，我意识到，但你知道，在一个被认为是很古怪的时期，现在它正在走向主流医学。我认为这是根本性的重要。我的意思是，我认为加州大学旧金山分校的罗宾·卡德·哈里斯实验室今天刚刚发表了一篇关于使用DMT治疗精神疾病的论文。

His laboratory has been looking at high dose psilocybin, two sessions, guided sessions, treatment of anorexia, ADHD and depression with very high success. Nolan Williams lab at my university, at Stanford. He's a triple board certified. My chirochist neurologist running the studies with veteran solutions, the group down in Mexico of tier one operators and other people who come back who are just messed up. They're light there. They're heading towards suicidal depression or they're just not feeling quite right.

他的实验室一直在研究高剂量的蘑菇碱，进行两次引导会话治疗厌食症、注意力不集中症和抑郁症，有很高的成功率。这个实验室属于斯坦福大学诺兰·威廉姆斯实验室，他是三重认证的。我的脊医神经学家正在与退伍军人解决方案一起进行这些研究，这个团队来自墨西哥的一流操作员和其他感到疲惫不堪的人们。在那里，他们正在朝着自杀性抑郁症的方向前进，或者他们只是感觉不对劲。

And using Abigail DMT in tandem and getting tremendously positive results. So he's doing the neuroimaging on them. So times are really changing and you and Michael and others really deserve a token of gratitude. I've completely revamped my stance on psychedelics. I'm still yet to do a high dose psilocybin journey. I haven't done that yet.

同时使用Abigail DMT并取得了极为积极的效果，所以他正在对他们进行神经影像学研究。时代正在发生变化，你、迈克尔和其他人真的值得感激。我已经完全改变了对致幻剂的立场。我还没有进行高剂量的psilocybin旅程，我还没有这样做。

What was your original stance on psychedelics? I don't want to lose my job. And I'll be honest. So I was kind of a wild youth barely finished high school and I did recreationally. I took LSD and psilocybin in high school, hung around on the wild bunch and we were just parting with it. I didn't know what I was doing. So my view of it was it was associated with a time in my life where I was pretty wayward. Then I never touched it.

你最初对致幻剂持有什么态度？我不想失去工作。但是我要说实话。所以我年轻时比较狂放，仅仅完成了高中的学业，我在高中时尝试过LSD和蘑菇，跟狂热的一群人一起嬉闹。那时我不知道自己在干什么。所以，在我看来，它与我生活中的一段放荡时期联系在一起。之后我再也不碰了。

I drank a little bit, smoked a little bit weed here and there but never really liked weed very much. I think and then when I did this three sessions with MDMA that completely transformed my understanding of how these drugs work. I also realize and you might you probably already know this but I was very curious about MDMA and the reputation that puts holes in the brain, kills serotonin neurons. The study on MDMA that showed neurotoxicity was retracted from science.

我喝了一点酒，也抽了一点大麻，但我从来不是很喜欢大麻。我认为，当我参加了这三次MDMA的疗程后，我对这些药物如何工作的理解完全改变了。此外，我意识到，你可能已经知道这一点了，但我对MDMA的好奇心很强，以及对这种药物对大脑产生的影响，可能会破坏血清素神经元。有关MDMA的显示神经毒性的研究，已经被撤回了。

They actually inadvertently injected methamphetamine into those monkeys. But you never hear about that. How do you inadvertently inject methamphetamine? But you don't hear about that. I thought it was aspirin. You don't hear about that retraction. You hear that. So they now have data in humans asking what are the safety profiles on MDMA for people that take it every once in a while to people who have taken hundreds of doses of MDMA.

他们无意识地将甲基苯丙胺注射到了那些猴子身上。但你从来没有听说过这个。他们怎么会无意识地注射甲基苯丙胺呢？但是你没有听到这个。我以为是阿司匹林。你没有听到撤回的消息。你听到了那个。所以现在他们在人体上收集数据，询问MDMA对于只偶尔使用的人以及已经大量使用MDMA的人的安全性如何。

And there's one population of people that you can do this on that makes it a really good experiment. Those people can't do any other drugs because then it becomes confounded by are they doing method, they doing coke or the concilocybin, what else, it's not a good experiment. You want single variable manipulation. There's only one group that you can do that on and that's who they did it on and that's Mormons. So the church of Latter-day Saints has one drug that's not on the band substance list and that's MDMA.

有一类人可以成为这个实验的研究对象，因为他们不能使用任何其他药物，否则研究结果会因为使用的药物种类的不同而产生干扰，这样就不是一个好的实验了。因此，你需要单向变量干预。只有一组人可以实现这种情况，就是摩尔门教徒，这个宗教团体有一种药物不被列为违禁药物，那就是MDMA。

Wow. And I'm not saying all Mormons drink coffee. It makes it even better experiment. And so I'm not saying that Mormons are all taking MDMA but there is a substantial number of LDS, Latter-day Saints, I think they call themselves Mormons, as most people know them, who have taken tons of MDMA and they've done brain imaging and psychiatric profiles on them. Those data say that done as long as it's not contaminated with something else, which is a serious issue, the neurotoxicity is nil-tonon.

哇。我并不是说所有的摩门教徒都喝咖啡。这是一个更好的实验。所以我并不是说所有的摩门教徒都在服用MDMA，但有相当数量的LDS（耶稣后期圣徒教会），我想他们称自己为摩门教徒，正如大多数人所知，他们已经服用了大量的MDMA，并对他们进行了脑成像和精神医学评估。这些数据表明，在不受其他污染物的影响下，神经毒性可以达到零级。