China in World War Two
发布时间 2017-08-07 14:33:25 来源
To put it bluntly, the participation of China allowed the allies to argue that we are not fighting a race war. That symbolically hugely important and that was very important especially to the United States. That was Hans van der Ven talking about his new book on China's 20th century wars. You're listening to the history extra podcast from BBC History magazine. Whether UK's best-selling history magazine available in print and several digital formats all over the world. Find out more at historyextra.com/subscribe or look out for us in your digital newsstand or app store.
直白地说，中国的参战使盟军得以辩称我们并非在进行一场种族战争，这在象征意义上极为重要，尤其对美国而言更是重要的。这是汉斯·范德文谈论他的新书《中国的20世纪战争》时所提到的。您正在收听由英国广播公司历史杂志制作的历史扩展播客。我们的杂志在全球多种数字格式中均有提供，欲知更多订阅详情，请登录历史扩展网站（historyextra.com/subscribe），或在您的数字新闻亭或应用商店中寻找我们。
Hello and welcome to the history extra podcast. I'm Rob Atter the editor of BBC History magazine. Today's interview is with Hans van der Ven who's professor of modern Chinese history at the University of Cambridge. He is the author of a new book entitled China at War, Triumph, and Tragedy in the emergence of the new China which explores China's role in World War II and the Korean War as well as the story of China's Civil War which resulted in the communist takeover of 1949.
大家好，欢迎收听历史额外的播客节目。我是BBC历史杂志的编辑Rob Atter。今天的采访对象是剑桥大学现代中国历史教授Hans van der Ven。他是一本新书《战争中的中国：新中国的崛起中的胜利与悲剧》的作者，探讨中国在二战和朝鲜战争中的角色，以及中国内战的故事，导致了1949年共产主义接管的发生。
Putting the questions to Hans was fellow China expert Professor Rana Mitter of the University of Oxford. Hello, it's a pleasure to be here in Central London. My name is Rana Mitter and I'm a historian of modern China based at Oxford University. Among the books I've written in the past is China's war with Japan the struggle for survival and account of the political and social history of China during the years of the Second World War.
在向汉斯提问的是牛津大学的中国问题专家Rana Mitter教授。大家好，我很高兴能在伦敦中心出席这次会议。我叫Rana Mitter，是一名现代中国历史学家，就职于牛津大学。我曾撰写过一些书籍，其中包括《中国与日本的战争：生存之争》。这本书介绍了中国在第二次世界大战期间的政治和社会历史。
I'm still relatively unexplored topic and that's why it's such a huge pledge to be here with Professor Hans van der Ven of Cambridge University. Hans has been professor or teaching at Cambridge now for a couple of decades and during that time he's established a reputation as a very distinguished and senior scholar of modern Chinese history.
我仍然是相对未被探索的话题，这就是为什么和剑桥大学的汉斯·范·德·文教授一起出现在这里是一个重大的承诺。汉斯在剑桥大学已经担任教授或教学工作了几十年，在这段时间内，他已经树立了一个极具声望的现代中国历史高级学者的声誉。
He's worked on topics including the origins of the Chinese Communist Party, Sino-American military relations during the Second World War period, and the history of a fascinating organization called the Maritime Custom Service. You want to know what that is? You're going to have to look it up. But today we're going to concentrate on Hans van der Ven's new book China at War which is about to be published by Profile in the UK this year and we'll come out in the United States next year.
他曾研究过许多话题，包括中国共产党的起源、第二次世界大战期间中美军事关系以及一个非常有趣的组织——海关工作。如果你想知道海关工作是什么，你需要自己去查。但今天我们将集中讨论汉斯·范德芬的新书《中国之战》，该书将于今年在英国由Profile出版，并将于明年在美国发行。
Hans, welcome. This book China at War covers one of the most turbulent periods in China's modern history. Could you perhaps give us an image or a scene from that period that in some ways symbolizes this history for you? Well first of all thank you for the wonderful introduction and for your own work on the Second World War in China. And I think we share our concerns about that. I think in this period, there are many scenes that come to mind as sort of important, interesting, and so on.
汉斯，欢迎。这本《战乱中的中国》介绍了中国现代史上最动荡的时期之一。也许您能给我们描述一个象征这段历史的形象或场景吗？首先，感谢您的精彩介绍，以及您对二战中中国的研究。我想我们都对此非常关注。在这段时期，有许多场景浮现在我的脑海中，它们都是重要、有趣的场面。
You could mention the great sea island incident of December 1936 where John Keishack wounds himself as he tries to escape from somebody taking the prison. But for me, the most sort of still the most vivid image is really on September 1945 which is when Japan surrendered to China. And China did this, the Nationalist did this on the 9th of September because in Chinese that is the 9th, 9th day.
你可以提到1936年12月的海岛事件，当时约翰·基什克试图逃离囚禁，结果自己受伤。但对我来说，最印象深刻的场景是1945年9月的日本向中国投降。中国国民党是在9月9日宣布投降的，因为在中国文化中，九九重阳节意义重大。
Which is of course a reference to the 11th of the 11th for the end of World War I but also in Chinese it means forever, forever. These sounds are what you call it, homophonous. So the phrase in Chinese is geo, geo, geo. Which means 9, 9 or also forever, forever. Let there be peace and forever more.
当然这是指第一次世界大战结束的11月11日，并且在中文中意味着永远，永远。这些音调也叫做谐音。所以中文短语就是“久久久”，意思是九九或者永远，永远。愿和平永存。
And that's a great thing but underneath that reality, if the Nationalist is trying to use that symbol to force a peace that isn't actually there. And they seem to be in control but in reality they are not. The largest part of the country remains under Japanese occupation. And in fact, the Nationalists need the Japanese in order to keep control over those areas otherwise they're going to be taken by the communists. So they are victors but in a very weak position and they need the Japanese but it's also important sort of symbolically because the Japanese decide that the best thing they can do for their own future is to work with the Nationalists.
这是一件很好的事情，但在这个现实之下，如果国民党试图利用这个象征来强迫实现并不存在的和平。虽然看上去他们似乎控制着局面，但实际上并非如此。该国最大的部分仍处于日本的占领下。事实上，国民党需要日本人来控制这些地区，否则这些地区将被共产主义者占领。因此，他们是胜利者，但处于非常薄弱的地位，需要日本人的帮助，同时这也具有象征意义，因为日本人决定与国民党合作是对自己未来最好的选择。
Because that is going to keep the communists, both the Soviets and the Chinese communists away from Japan. It will then provide, it is hoped a peaceful China will provide markets for Japan that will help Japan revive its economy. And of course, that situation is so ironic because the whole war began with Japan trying to wrestle the Nationalists into the ground. And I think sort of the third aspect of that that I find so sort of almost so vivid is so important is because the United States and the British want to make the fall of Japan the end of World War II.
因为这将使苏联和中国共产党远离日本。然后，我们希望一个和平的中国将为日本提供市场，帮助日本恢复经济。当然，这种情况非常具有讽刺意味，因为整场战争始于日本试图打败国民党。我觉得第三个方面非常重要和栩栩如生，就是美国和英国希望让日本的失败成为二战的结束。
But in reality, the fighting in China, in Southeast Asia, in Vietnam, in Indonesia, in Malaysia and someone doesn't end so the war continues. There's a huge amount in there with lots of actors and personalities so we have the Chinese nationalists, Chinese communists, we have the Soviets, we have the British. we have the Americans
但事实上，中国、东南亚、越南、印度尼西亚和马来西亚等地的战斗并没有结束，因此战争仍在继续。这其中涉及很多参与者和个性，有中国民族主义者、中国共产党、苏联、英国和美国等。
And it's really interesting that for your iconic moment you chose the very end of the war when we might think of this as an end point But the way you put it, it's almost the beginning. So to get to that I'd like to move us back a little bit and just talk about some of these actors, some of these personalities
很有趣的是，你选择了战争结束时的经典瞬间，尽管我们可能认为它是一个终点。但你的表述，却像是一个新的开始。为了达到这个点，我想先回顾一下一些演员、一些人物。
For instance you've mentioned the Chinese leader Chang Kai-shek Now he's one of the personalities in this book who comes through very strongly He's a name that people I guess sort of remember particularly if they know a bit of mid 20th century history but from being 60, 70 years ago one of the most famous men in the world He's kind of fladed and forgotten now. Just take us back a moment or two for perhaps people not familiar with the history Very briefly who he was and where he came from. Who was he?
例如，你提到了中国领袖蒋介石。他是本书中一个性格非常强烈的人物之一。如果读者了解二十世纪中叶的历史，他们可能会稍微记得这个名字，但是从60、70年前开始，他是世界上最著名的人之一。但是现在他已经逐渐被淡忘了。让我们简单回顾一下历史，或许对那些不熟悉这个人物的人有些帮助。他是谁？他来自哪里？
Let's talk a little bit about Chang Kai-shek then because he is an interesting person And I think in the key to him is to see him as struggling with his own personality Which can be one that flies into rage and all that stuff and tries to control it. He believes he has a great mission in order to realize Sun Yat-sense vision for China Sun Yat-sense is a nationalist. He is certainly a nationalist. He is also the one who has some military training but he's dealing with a very difficult situation The nationalists are divided just sort of these warlord armies all around China
让我们谈一下蒋介石，因为他是个有趣的人。我认为理解他的关键在于将他看作是在与自己的个性斗争，他可能会突然发脾气并试图控制自己。他相信自己有一个伟大的使命，就是要实现孙中山先生对中国的愿景。孙中山是个爱国主义者，他也是一个接受过一些军事训练但正在应对非常困难的局面。国民党被分裂成几支军阀军队遍布全中国。
And he is also dealing he's not a man who's a great of international experience and then strangely enough his international diplomacy is actually very effective Because in some ways you could see the Zhang Kai-shek as losing as armies during World War II But also getting the acceptance of the international community of China as an independent sovereign equal country that needs to be taken seriously And that said something about the sophistication of nationalist international diplomacy And Zhang Kai-shek and the nationalists play a weak military hand with great intelligence and actually with great effectiveness In some ways opposed to the British who gain a lot militarily from the United States, from the Allies But lose a lot in terms of their empire and in that triangle the nationalists are very important to Roosevelt in beginning to undermine these empires that have made up the world order until then
他不是一个拥有丰富国际经验的人，但他处理事务的能力出奇地高超，他的国际外交也非常有效。在某些方面，你可以看到蒋介石在二战期间输掉了他的军队，但同时也得到了国际社会对中国作为一个独立主权国家的认可，这表明了民族主义国际外交的东西。蒋介石和民族主义者以聪明且高效的方式打出了一手弱势的军事牌。与此形成对比的是，英国从美国和盟国那里在军事方面获得了很多收益，但在帝国方面损失很大。在这个三角中，民族主义者对罗斯福开始破坏这些构成世界秩序的帝国非常重要。
So for me we talk about personalities in writing this book The one personality we rarely talk about in the context of the Second World War is that of Sun Yat-sen And I think it's very interesting that he remains in people's minds all the time So Sun Yat-sen is the great Chinese nationalist leader, he's a figure of the late 19th century He's actually from Canton or Cantonese origin down in the south of China And in a very short period of time in the last few decades of the 19th century in the very beginning of the early 20th century
在写这本书时，我们谈论了人物性格。在第二次世界大战的背景下，我们很少谈论的一个性格是孙中山的。我认为这很有趣，因为他一直在人们的脑海中。孙中山是伟大的中国民族主义领袖，他是19世纪末的人物，实际上是来自于中国南部的广东或粤语的人。在19世纪的最后几十年和20世纪初的很短时间内，他发挥了重要作用。
He becomes enemy number one for the Chinese dynasty of that time, the Qing dynasty People may know from the movie the last emperor, the last emperor was in fact the last emperor of the Qing dynasty And he was a figure who put together a political idea in some ways that was very new in China The idea that China was not a traditional empire which would become a nation state in which various different ethnicities and races should come together He wasn't a racist in that sense, but he did believe that the Chinese nation should have its own destiny in a world of nation states
他成为了当时的清朝政府公敌，引起了中国王朝的不满。大家可能从电影《末代皇帝》中了解到，末代皇帝实际上是清朝的最后一位皇帝。他创造了一种在某种意义上非常新颖的政治理念，认为中国不是一个传统的帝国，而是一个应该集结各种不同种族和民族的国家。他并不是一个种族主义者，但他确实相信中国民族应该在一个由各国构成的世界中有自己的命运。
So in that sense he was rather a typical figure of that kind of Asian nationalist along with Nairu and others in the early 20th century But he had of course this continuing role a legacy after his death in China Inspiring many thinkers at the time including Zhang Ka-sheng Yes very clearly and that's where all those Zhang Ka-sheng acts in the name of Sun Yat-sen It is a source of legitimacy for him a symbol that the nationalist use as this is the father of the country And it is his will that is going to be realized And the name of the second world war in China is the war of resistance but also the construction of the nation
因此，就那个时代的亚洲民族主义者而言，他算是一个典型人物，和尼赫鲁等人一样。然而，他在死后在中国也有着持续的作用和遗产。当时鼓舞了许多思想家，包括张家声。这就是为什么那些张家声行动都打着孙中山的名义，他是一个合法性的来源，是民族主义者用作国家之父的象征。这是他的意愿将会被实现，而中国第二次世界大战的名称是抗日战争，同时也是国家建设。
With World War II people in the West tend to associate that period with in Europe of course the invention of Poland by Hitler Then Pearl Harbor comes along the Americans sometimes slightly jokingly sometimes not argue that it's not until Pearl Harbor that the war is really a world war because the US comes in
二战期间，西方的人们往往把这段时期与欧洲的波兰被希特勒入侵和发明联系起来。然后珍珠港事件出现了，美国人有时会稍微开玩笑地说，有时会认真地说，直到珍珠港事件发生，战争才真正成为世界战争，因为美国加入了战争。
But your book makes a very powerful case which I'd certainly agree with that we have to take China much more seriously as an actor in World War II And I should say that's based on work that you've been doing in the academic sphere over the last 15, 20 years perhaps So it's a thesis you've brought together over a long time Could you explain in the baldest way possible really why should those of us who perhaps just know a more general sense of World War II in Europe or in the Pacific take China seriously as an actor during that war?
你的书提出了一个非常有说服力的观点，我完全同意，即我们必须把中国作为二战中的一个行动者更加认真地对待。我必须说，这是基于你在学术领域中所做的工作，可能已经有15、20年了。因此，这是你长时间以来汇集的一个论点。你能够简单地解释一下，为什么我们这些可能只对二战在欧洲或太平洋的一般情况有所了解的人们应该认真对待中国在那场战争中的角色吗？
Well I think for practical reasons but also for how we understand the world today And I think it's what the reality is that during World War II an enormous amount of fighting and violence went on in East Asia, Southeast Asia and so on So that is simply a reality we have to take a count of And I think the emphasis on the UK role, the US role and perhaps even still to a lesser extent the role of the Soviet Union which of course did most of the fighting against Germany That speaks to a narrative that remains essentially Eurocentred And that is I think in many ways just fireball and understandable because a first generation of scholars, parents, family members who were closely affected by the war but I think it is time
我认为这是出于实际原因，也是因为我们今天对世界的认识方式。我认为现实是，在二战期间，东亚、东南亚等地发生了大量的战斗和暴力事件。因此，我们必须考虑到这一现实。我认为对英国、美国甚至还有苏联的强调，这些国家在对抗德国方面发挥了最主要的作用，这表明了一种基本上仍然以欧洲为中心的叙事方式。这在很多方面是可以理解和接受的，因为第一代学者、家长和亲人都深受战争的影响，但我认为现在已是时候改变这一叙事方式了。
So you're from the Netherlands and one of the things at the beginning of your book you're right about is your own family connections in the Netherlands with World War II That's what we just did to for 30 seconds to hear about that because you said that was a rather personally made comment when you talk about Eurocentrism I don't know if you want to detour it later but I think if you go first back to sort of why is China important in the Second World War?
所以，你来自荷兰，你书的开头提到了你自己在荷兰与二战有关的家庭关系。能不能简单地讲解一下这个问题，因为你提到在谈到欧洲中心主义时，这是一个非常个人的评论。我不知道你是否想稍后讲解这个问题，但我认为如果你先回顾一下中国在二战中的重要性，可能会更好一些。
I think it's important simply for the reality underground. This was part of a human story that we all need to be aware of But China also was militarily politically important, militarily usual way what people say is a tiny down and large part of Japanese forces So the general wisdom or conventional wisdom from people who know a little bit about the Asian Theatre of World War II is that whatever else happened five to six hundred thousand Japanese troops were bogged down in what the Japanese themselves sometimes refer to as the China trap or the China problem the China quagmire is that fair to say that was a Chinese contribution against the Japanese?
我认为这只是为了揭示现实地下情况而重要。这是人类故事的一部分，我们都需要了解。但是中国在军事和政治上也是非常重要的，通常人们说的军事上微不足道的小镇却是日本军队的重要一部分。因此，对于那些对第二次世界大战亚洲战场有一些了解的人们来说，普遍的看法或传统的看法是，无论发生了什么其它事情，五到六十万的日本军队被困在他们自己有时称为中国陷阱或中国问题或中国泥潭的地方。这样说，中国对日本做出了贡献吗？
I think it is fair to say I mean I think as you said you have argued yourself maybe those troops were not first rate forces that's true but if Japan had been able to combine the resources of Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan that it could have done things with that especially against the Soviet Union that would have met it but I think China met it to in the geopolitics of the time Roosevelt used China well I think to put it bluntly the participation of China allowed the allies to argue that we are not fighting a race war That symbolically hugely important and that was very important especially to the United States
我认为公平地说，就像你所说的，你曾经辩论过这些部队可能不是一流部队，这是真的，但如果日本能够将日本、韩国、中国和台湾的资源结合起来，特别是针对苏联，那将会有所收获。但我认为中国在当时的地缘政治中也起到了作用，罗斯福善于利用中国，直言不讳地说，中国的参与使联盟国能够辩称我们不是在打种族战争，这象征意义非常重要，尤其对美国非常重要。
Could you give examples of that? I mean did Roosevelt ever speak out in open terms on the radio or elsewhere about this being not just a war for the white races but war? I think that is an aspect that I find fascinating On the one hand we have the British version Churchill goes to Washington and does his speeches and rallies the United States and his great mates with Roosevelt Roosevelt what does Roosevelt do? He does that and that is important and he goes with that but he also invites Madame Deng some mailing to come to the United States Madame Chanko-Chek, Madame Chanko-Chek and she has radio speeches but she is a huge hit all across the United States with all her mass rallies
你能给出一些例子吗？我的意思是罗斯福是否曾经在广播或其他地方公开谈论过这不仅仅是为了白人种族，而是一场战争？我认为这是我觉得很有意思的方面。一方面，我们有英国版本，丘吉尔去华盛顿做演讲，并动员美国，他与罗斯福是伟大的伙伴关系。罗斯福做了那件事，这很重要，他也邀请了邓文迪女士来美国，还有张婧仪女士，她的广播讲话和大规模集会在全美非常受欢迎。
So you see Roosevelt with the Americans in a clever way balancing Europe but also creating a positive Asian other Less well known because much less well public is that Roosevelt also used Chanko-Chek to undermine British control of India, British Empire Hang on there is a whole generation of I have to say crusty colonels living in small seaside towns even today in parts of Britain who are convinced that the Americans are the reason that the British Empire fell in the end You are basically giving them ammunition with this right?
所以你看到罗斯福以聪明的方式平衡欧洲和积极地创建亚洲其他。但很少有人知道的是，罗斯福还利用印度的印度教教派来削弱英国对印度的控制。现在，有一整代古板的上校，就在英国某些海滨小镇里，他们仍然相信是美国人导致了英国帝国最终的崩溃。你这么说，基本上给了他们枪手，你确定这是好事吗？
I guess so I think Roosevelt was working towards a world order which no longer was consisted of these highly militarized empire trading blocks. He believed that that made for a very unstable situation and one is unsustainable given the kind of nationalism that were clearly emerging all across the world. And for him Chanko-Chek was a foil by which to make that happen in a very plight way.
我想，罗斯福在为一个不再由高度军事化的帝国贸易集团组成的世界秩序而努力。他认为，这样很不稳定，也无法持续，因为全世界明显出现了种种民族主义。对他来说，中国和苏联是实现这一目标的借口，以一种轻松的方式让这种变革成为可能。
When he had sort of Chanko-Chek appeal to Roosevelt to do things in India or to then Roosevelt sends on those messages from Chanko-Chek to Churchill knowing very well that Churchill would be very upset by this. Roosevelt was a consummate politician in this regard and he began to, of course at Cairo in the great conference in Cairo of November 1943. Roosevelt really does begin to create an alternative form of East Asia in which China is the regional power and I think a lot of things are discussed at the Cairo conference.
当尚可禀告罗斯福，在印度需要做些事情时，罗斯福向丘吉尔传递尚可的信息。罗斯福在这个问题上非常擅长政治，他在1943年11月开的开罗大会上，开始创造一种东亚的替代形式，其中中国是地区强国。我认为在开罗会议上讨论了许多事情。丘吉尔会对此非常不满。
I was just making it clear at this point that Winston Churchill during the Cairo conference in 1943 was very unhappy in many ways. This was the only one of the great conferences of World War II where Chanko-Chek, a non-European sovereign leader of a country that was in Asia sat in equal standing with Winston Churchill and Roosevelt.
此处我只是想要明确一点，就是1943年的开罗会议中，温斯顿·丘吉尔在许多方面都非常不满意。这是二战期间唯一一次，非欧洲国家的君主领袖——查莫-切克——坐在同温斯顿·丘吉尔和罗斯福一样的地位上参会。
You know public photos and all of that but at the same time Churchill famously said, isn't there a way we can get the generalist of Chanko-Chek and his wife to just go off and do some tourism in the pyramids and he meant Roosevelt and he would get on with the real work. So Churchill really did not take to this at all well. No, and if you read the diaries of Lord Moran is his physician Churchill is trying very hard to make an argument about the superiority of English-speaking countries.
你了解公开照片等等，但同时丘吉尔曾经很著名地说过，我们难道不能让超级大国领袖恩齐奇克和他的妻子去金字塔旅游吗？他指的是罗斯福，然后他就可以继续做真正的工作了。所以丘吉尔对此并不看好。不，如果你读过莫兰勋爵的日记，丘吉尔非常努力地辩论英语国家的优越性。
Roosevelt will have nothing of it. He goes off with Chanko-Chek and tries to settle East Asia with Chanko-Chek. He wants the Chinese Chanko-Chek to actually run the occupation of Japan that doesn't happen in the end. And in the Cairo community, the independence of Korea is announced or is underwritten.
罗斯福对此毫不在意。他与张自忠一起出发，试图与张自忠解决东亚问题。他希望让中国的张自忠实际上运营日本的占领，但最终未能实现。在开罗宣言中，朝鲜的独立被宣布或得到保证。
That was against Churchill's wishes because he well understood the implications. Roosevelt goes back, has his fireside chats all about sort of these Asian independence and you have people in Whitehall saying, well if that's going to happen in whatever in Korea, then what is going to happen with Ampli. And indeed, that's exactly right. And so Roosevelt is trying to maneuver in the same way that he tried to maneuver the United States slowly into the Second World War.
那违背了丘吉尔的意愿，因为他深刻理解其中的影响。罗斯福回去后，发表了关于亚洲独立的演说，这让白厅里的人们开始担忧，如果韩国等地发生独立运动，那么安波里又会发生什么。这种情况确实如此。罗斯福努力谋划，就像他试图让美国慢慢地卷入第二次世界大战一样。
He's trying to maneuver the world into his version of a... In many ways the post-war order that we... not well the Cold War sort of undermined that but yeah. To put it simply, would you say that taking that idea in mind and reading your book. If we want to rethink the actually rather, you know, almost clichéd Anglo-American alliance in World War II. Which we all know was an immense motor of allied power that ultimately defeated the Axis.
他试图将世界引向他心目中的某种版本......在很多方面，我们所理解的战后秩序......并不是很完美。冷战在某种程度上破坏了这种秩序，但是......简单地说，如果我们考虑这个想法并阅读你的书，你是否认为我们需要重新思考在二战中被过分强调的盟军中的英美联盟。我们都知道这个联盟是盟军力量的重要推动力量，最终击败了轴心国。
To understand the new and more complex way, we really have to. understand that China and China's situation was a very big deal for the United States I mean that's absolutely right And this goes about what happens after the Second World War How are going to put a new world order together? America doesn't want to return to the world of empires. The most simply put, that's it.
要理解这种新而更复杂的方式，我们真的必须了解中国和中国的情况对美国来说非常重要。我的意思是这是绝对正确的。这涉及到二战后发生的事情，我们要如何打造一个新的世界秩序呢？美国不想回到帝国主义的世界。简而言之，就是这样。
But I think to go back to the point you made earlier, and you talk about sort of the UK-US perspectives on World War II And I think here my background is important. That is a perspective, of course, informed by fictors who were never occupied, who didn't have to deal with the realities of occupation Coming from a country that was occupied. So you're from the Netherlands. I'm from the Netherlands. And the country was occupied and my parents lived through it out and they talked about that And I think the reality is sort of a perspective, a perspective, informed by the realities of occupation which must be true for China Does bring up a new way of looking at all this that I think begins to sort of get away from a sort of a heroic perspective in which it is Victors against the losers or heroes against enemies or good against evil. A sort of a more gray history I think is what as a second generation we should be moving towards.
但是，我认为回到你之前提到的观点，你谈到英美对于二战的看法。我认为我的背景很重要。这个观点当然是由从未被占领过，没有面对占领现实的人所形成的。我来自一个被占领的国家，你也是。我的父母经历过占领，并对此进行了谈论。我认为现实是一种观点，是受占领现实影响的观点，这也适用于中国。这带来了一种全新的看待这一切的方式，我认为我们应该开始逐渐远离英雄主义的观点，即胜利者对抗失败者或英雄对抗敌人或善对恶。我认为，作为第二代，我们应该向一种更加灰色的历史观念迈进。
So let's try and nail down something on that point more specifically. Again, many people listening may not know that much about the Chinese role in World War II. It's probably of the major theaters of the war, still the one that's been least documented in English, certainly, and ununderstood. So let me give you a very quick sketch or perhaps some common perceptions from people who know a little bit about it, but not very much. And you tell me if you think they're fair or not.
因此，让我们尝试更明确地阐明这一点。许多听众可能不太了解中国在二战中的角色。它可能是战争中最重要的战区之一，但在英语文献中，它仍然是最少受到记录和理解的。所以让我给你一些非常简要的概述或者一些对于了解有一点点的人所持有的看法，你告诉我你认为它们是否公正吧。
This idea is that China was invaded by the Japanese and that was of course a terrible thing and a war crime. But the China of that time was essentially a weak country, a corrupt country. It was ruled by Chiang Kai-shek and his nationalists who are pretty backward and unpleasant group of people. Eventually during the wartime period they didn't actually do that much fighting against the Japanese. By the time the Americans came along as well as the British to help them after Pearl Harbor in 1941, Chiang Kai-shek's nickname had become for some Americans cash my check. Because the rumor was that he asked for increasingly large sums of money but never actually delivered. And by the time you get to 1945 and the end of the war, the communists under Mao Zedong who would become Chairman Mao, probably the most famous Chinese person of the 20th century, rightly basically managed to conquer this corrupt and backward government and instead set up a new and much cleaner government in 1949.
这个想法是中国被日本侵略，这当然是一件可怕的事情和战争罪行。但那时的中国本质上是一个弱国、一个腐败的国家。它由蒋介石及其国民党统治，这是一群相当落后和令人不快的人。战时期，他们实际上没有做太多对抗日本的战斗。等到美国人和英国人在1941年珍珠港事件后前来帮助他们时，蒋介石的外号已经成为一些美国人口中的“兑现我的支票”。因为谣言是他要求越来越大的金钱数目，但从未实际到位。到了1945年和战争结束的时候，毛泽东领导的共产党人，后来成为20世纪最著名的中国人，合理地基本上征服了这个腐败和落后的政府，代之以1949年设立一个新的、更加清洁的政府。
Now as I say, that's not, I hate to know how that's not my view, but in my own book I've tried to push back against that. But I would say that that's perhaps a thumbnail sketch of perceptions people have. That's not entirely fair, is it? No, and I think that two elements, you have written about this in your own book in an excellent way, very vivid way to undermine that particular image.
现在我说的是，那不是我喜欢的观点，我在我自己的书中试图反驳这一点。但我认为这可能是人们对此的一种大体看法。这并不完全公平，不是吗？是的，我认为你在自己的书中非常生动地阐述了这一点，并且有两个方面可以削弱这种形象。
There are two elements of this. One is sort of what do we know actually happened on the ground? And the other element of this is why did that image emerge and to what extent was US politics important in that and why has it taken so long to undermine that, to get a more realistic account of what happened on the ground? And of course, as we do know, Chinese nationalist forces did a great deal of fighting both in the early years of the war as you have described. But the fighting continued. The number of casualties didn't actually decrease very much after the first years of the fighting and sort of becomes a whole horrifying story. The whole idea that the Chinese nationalists did not want to fight the Japanese, that is no longer a story that I think.
这个问题涉及两个方面。第一个是我们到底知道现场发生了什么？第二个方面是为什么出现了那样的形象，以及美国政治在其中有多重要，为什么需要这么长时间来破除那种形象，得到更真实的描述？当然，中国民族主义力量在战争的早期年份中进行了大量战斗，正如您所描述的那样。但是战斗还在继续，伤亡人数在战斗的头几年没有实际下降，这变成了一个可怕的故事。认为中国民族主义者不想打日本人的观念已经不再成立了。
And we can't go into huge detail in this conversation, but for those who read your book there will be names of battles such as Taira Dwarong, Changshan, Wuhan. Very unfamiliar names in the West, but you said we had to be wary about the word heroism, but some of them are really rather heroic stories. And for people who have grown up with battle names like El Alamein, Bulge, Ardenne, this would be a worthy set of battles to add to that. I think that's right. I think we need to add those names of Wuhan Taira Dwarong, but also Ichigo in 1944, to that list of battles in the same way.
我们无法在这次谈话中详细讨论，但是对于那些阅读你的书的人来说，书中会有一些战役的名字，比如平王战、常山战、武汉战。对于西方人来说这些名字很陌生，但是你说我们对英雄主义这个词要保持警惕，但是这些战役中有一些都是非常英勇的故事。而对于那些成长于像埃尔阿拉曼、突出部、阿登这些战役的人来说，这些战役的名字也应该被加入到那些战役的名字中。我认为这是对的。我认为我们需要把武汉、平王战和1944年的一次合并战加入到这个战役的名字列表中。
Is your 1944 as the single biggest Japanese campaign in China during the whole war? I think changed much of the history, but in similar terms, the Chinese generals and some of them were really outstanding both from the nationalists and the communist side. Tanganboa would be one, but Liying-gyao would be another on the communist side. They all need to be added to it. The one thing I wanted to do in the book is to bring home the amount of fighting that actually happened, the conditions in which it had to take place, but also the enormous sacrifice is that China was willing to make, and perhaps because, despite rather sometimes in different leadership or a very weak hand, in order to resist the Japanese and to save their civilization, I think it was that serious.
你认为1944年的战役是整个战争中日本在中国最大的一次吗？我认为它改变了很多历史，但同样地，中国的将领们，从国民党和共产党两方面来看，有些人确实非常出色，例如汤恩伯，还有共产党方面的李英刚，他们都需要加入进来。我在这本书中想要做的一件事是让人们意识到实际上发生了多少战斗，以及它必须在什么条件下进行，但也要让人们意识到中国愿意付出的巨大牺牲，也许是因为，尽管有时领导力量相对薄弱，但为了抵抗日本并挽救他们的文明，这是非常严肃的。
Why did large parts of China keep fighting, do you think? Because this is a very agrarian society, it's a poor society. In 1940 France was conquered completely and one can't necessarily blame the French for that. Some parts of China were occupied under collaboration, but two large groupings, the Chinese nationalists under Changkai-shek, the Chinese communists with Mao Zedong, very powerful. At one point, they're really the only people in Asia who are fighting the Japanese. Why do you think they continue to do that? Today's story is that, of course, the Chinese people got together and resisted. This is very much the propaganda of the Communist Party about the idea that, of course, there would be this heroic story of resistance to invaders.
您认为为什么中国的大部分地区还在继续战斗呢？因为中国是以农业为主的社会，是一个贫穷的社会。1940年法国被彻底征服，但我们不能完全责怪法国人。中国有一些地区是在协助下被占领的，但中国民族主义者张开席和中国共产党领袖毛泽东领导的两个大集团非常强大。有一段时间，他们是亚洲唯一与日本人在作战的人。您认为他们为什么会继续战斗呢？今天的故事是，中国人民团结一心，坚决抵抗。这非常符合共产党的宣传，关于中国抵御入侵者的英勇故事。
But you and I know that this isn't how wars work. People are frightened, people are human beings. They think about their families, they think about their locality, and yet they did fight. Why? They did fight initially, reluctantly, I think. I think in the first year of the war, some sort of settlement would have had broad support among the population, or... And agreement with the Japanese? And agreement with the Japanese, although not necessarily among university-going students, but they may not have been as particularly important as Dalem's thoughts. But I think by 1938, soon in 1939, there was a general will to continue to fight at a certain level, a realization that, yes, we're not going to have the kinds of offensive that is going to deliver immediate victory, but we are not going to let the Japanese will win.
但是你和我都知道战争并不是这样运作的。人们感到恐惧，他们是人类。他们考虑到家庭、考虑到当地，但他们还是战斗了。为什么？他们一开始可能会勉强地战斗，我想在战争的第一年，某种解决方案可能会得到人民的广泛支持，或者……与日本达成协议？与日本的协议，虽然不一定能获得在校大学生的支持，但他们可能并不像戴勒姆的想法那么重要。但我认为到了1938年，很快到了1939年，人们普遍希望能够在某个层面继续战斗，意识到，是的，我们不可能通过进攻获得立竿见影的胜利，但我们不会让日军获胜。
And I think that is about... That is informed in part by China's deep history, deep historical consciousness of China as a civilization, as a continuing history. That has done this kind of thing before. It's a five to mongol, the menaces, the typing, and so on. It has dealt with these kinds of upheavals before. Also, of course, modern nationalism spread through radio, theatre, and through propaganda teams. I think all these things really, really do matter. And as education grew, nationalism grew as well. Yes, you have lots of schools across China. Of course, the nationalism has continued to support education throughout China during the war, but a lot of effort into that. I think very, very important.
我认为这与中国的深厚历史有关。中国作为一种文明，具有深刻的历史意识，不断延续着历史的发展。中国曾经遭受过五胡乱华、蒙古入侵、太平天国等的威胁，并成功地应对了这些动荡局势。当然，现代民族主义也通过广播、戏剧和宣传小组传播。我认为所有这些都非常重要。随着教育的发展，民族主义也在中国蔓延。当然，在战争期间，民族主义继续支持全国的教育，付出了很多努力。这些都非常重要。
I'd add another factor, which I think... I can tell you agree with that, but I'd add one more factor also, which is the growth in the responsibilities of government, particularly in terms of welfare. But I think this is one area where actually understanding of the wartime period is both comparable in some ways to the West and has developed in the China field of scholarship in recent years. Because we now know that there were things like healthcare schemes, refugee relief schemes. We don't know exact numbers, but something like 60, 80 million, maybe more, Chinese became refugees in their own country during the years from 1937 to 1945.
我想再加一点，我认为......我可以告诉你也同意这一点，但我还想再加一点，那就是政府职责的增长，特别是在福利方面。但我认为这是一个领域，在那里对战时期的了解在某些方面与西方是可比的，并且最近在中国学者领域得到了发展。因为我们现在知道有像医疗保健计划，难民救助计划之类的东西。我们不知道确切的数字，但大约有60、80多万中国人在1937年至1945年间成为了自己国家的难民。
And as part of this, a whole variety of experimentation in setting up new hospitals, vaccination programs, natalist programs that were trying to encourage women to give birth to healthy babies. I mean, we see these in lots of other countries too, of course, so on both the allied and access sides. In Britain, you could say that the product of that same instinct is what we now call the National Health Service. There was nothing quite sophisticated in China, but certainly the idea that public provision should be part of it. I think that's one of the things that in the end helps to fuel enthusiasm for communism as well.
作为其中的一部分，人们进行了各种实验，建立了新的医院、疫苗计划和旨在鼓励妇女生下健康婴儿的计划。当然，在同盟和轴心国两边我们也看到了这些。在英国，可以说这种本能的产物就是我们现在所称的国民保健服务。中国没有这么先进的东西，但公共供给的观念肯定是其一部分。我认为这是最终助推共产主义热情的一件事。
I think you're right, but I think there's a positive side to this story. I think there's also a very negative side, which I really do want to drive home in this book, which is that the government, both the nationalists and the communist, made the Chinese people, the sacrifices they demanded of the Chinese people were so severe that there was no returning back.
我认为你是对的，但我认为这个故事也有积极的一面。我也认为有一个非常消极的方面，我真的想在这本书中强调一下，即政府，无论是国民党还是共产党，使中国人民的牺牲如此严重，以至于无法回头。
I think one of the aspects that people have talked very little about is the scorched earth policy of the nationalists from the beginning and at last the whole time. The whole cities were burned, the whole provinces were destroyed. Just explain the logic behind their strategy. Why did they do that? They copied this in part from, of course, Napoleon's, from the Russian approach to Napoleon's advance into Russia.
我认为人们很少谈论的一个方面是国民党从一开始就采取的焦土政策，一直贯穿到最后。整个城市被烧毁，整个省份被摧毁。解释一下他们的策略背后的逻辑。他们为什么会这样做？当然，他们在某种程度上从拿破仑的行动中复制了这一策略，从对拿破仑入侵俄罗斯的反击中学习了一些经验。
People talked about that it diswerked in order to resist an invader. You make the population sacrifice so much, the price they pay so much, there's no turning back from that. But it is also part of Chinese tradition where you sort of clear the countryside and remove everything that the enemy can use. So there is a toughness to conducting this war. I mean, this is an all-out war. This is actually one form of total war.
人们谈论着为抵抗侵略者而进行消灭战争的问题。让人民付出如此巨大的代价，牺牲如此之多，这是没有退路的。但这也是中国传统的一部分，你清理乡村，消灭敌人能够利用的一切物资。因此，进行这场战争需要有坚定的意志。我的意思是，这是一场全面战争，实际上是一种总体战的形式。
And that, I think, once you have made that kind of sacrifice, you may be critical of your government. You may be critical of this. You may resent or not like the fact that all these government surfaces are not perfect, but you're not going to give into the Japanese. They are the invaders, they are the enemy. And of course what I had in mind too was the US invasion of Iraq, where you think we're going to be welcome to liberate, as well forget it, you're the enemy. You are going to be resisted.
我的意思是，一旦你做出这种牺牲，你可能会对政府产生批评。你可能会对此产生批评，你可能会不喜欢这样一个事实，即这些政府服务并不完美，但你不会向日本人投降。他们是入侵者，是敌人。当然，我也想到了美国入侵伊拉克的情况，你以为我们要解放，就会受到欢迎，然而没有，你是敌人，你会受到抵制。
And I think that point was driven home by the demand for enormous sacrifices which were made and that itself I think is a symbol of the desire to continue, not even desire to willingness to pay all manner of prices to resist Japan. You're painting a pretty bleak picture of China during wartime. Is that the right way to think about it? Yes, I do.
我认为这一观点是通过为抗击日本而作出的巨大牺牲的要求而得到印证的，而这本身就是继续抵抗的愿望的象征，甚至愿意付出一切代价来抵抗日本。你对中国在战争期间的情况描绘得相当悲观。这是正确的思考方式吗？是的，我认为是的。
Because the kinds of stories we hear about individual sacrifices, the kind of things that happened, this was a tough, tough time in which many people did suffer very griefously. And where war in the end war is very serious and often callous business, that is the nature of war.
由于我们听到的关于个人牺牲的故事，以及发生的种种事情，这是一个非常艰难的时期，许多人遭受了非常沉重的痛苦。战争最终是非常严重和常常冷酷的事情，这就是战争的本质。
And that is one reason why I'm sort of one reason I'm emphasizing this is because the kind of narratives in which is China as the hero which sort of could not but win in which everybody came happily together. That was a communist sort of a kind of relationship.
这正是我强调的原因之一，即表明将中国描绘成英雄、让每个人和睦地在一起的故事叙述方式，实际上是一种共产主义式的关系。这也是我强调的原因之一，因为这种叙述方式并不能绝对胜出。
And again, I think it doesn't deal with that reality. We can't talk about the war without dressing at least a little bit the question of the military and military strategy. And this is a very significant and central thread to the book.
再次强调，我觉得这本书没有涉及到现实问题。我们无法谈论战争而不至少稍微涉及到军事和军事策略问题。而这正是本书的一个非常重要和核心的主题。
So let me if I may start with a few quite simple thoughts, but ones that I would love to hear your more complex answers to I think. The first is that if there is perhaps one general understanding of one of the effects of World War II in China, it is that it brings about a communist revolution in China.
让我来谈几个相当简单的想法，但是我很想听听你们更复杂的答案。首先，如果可能有一个关于二战对中国影响的普遍理解，那就是它在中国引发了一次共产主义革命。
But the fact is that there's still an overall narrative in mid-20th century China that a failed nationalist government is worn out by World War II and eventually gives way to a resurgent communist party that takes power under Mao Zedong in 1949. So how important in what way is the war against Japan important for the ultimate communist victory?
事实上，在20世纪中期的中国，普遍认为失败的国民政府在二战中疲惫不堪，最终让位于在1949年由毛泽东领导的复兴的共产党。因此，对于最终的共产主义胜利，抗日战争在何种程度上至关重要？
Well, Mao Zedong was absolutely right. On everything? At least on this when he had visitors from Japan, including Japan's prime minister at the time, who wanted to apologize endlessly for having invaded China, he thanked him for having done so because without a Japanese invasion as he put it, we would still be in the hills. And that is probably true.
毛泽东绝对是正确的。所有事情都对吗？至少在这件事上，当时来自日本的访客包括日本首相想要不停地道歉侵入中国时，他感谢他们做过的事，因为没有日本的入侵，正如他所说的那样，我们仍然在山上。这可能是真的。
So the conditions for the rise of the Chinese communists were clearly created by the Japanese invasion. Remember, you know all this, but remember that before 1937, before 1937, the nationalists were well on the way of eradicating the communists.
中国共产党的兴起条件明显是由日本的入侵所创造的。请记住，您已经知道这一切，但在1937年之前，国民党已经开始根除共产党。
And the Japanese invasion created the spaces behind Japanese lines, the opportunities politically, economically, for the communists to establish their bases, to create armies, to bring populations under control to make propaganda, and so on and so on and so on. And just very simply put, if in 1937 the communists had whatever, 10, 15, 20,000 troops by the end, by 1945, they have, what is the figure, 500,000, a million troops. Maybe as many as a million.
日本入侵为共产党创造了机会，他们能在日本占领区域内建立基地、组建军队、掌控民众、进行宣传等等。 简单来说，如果在1937年时，共产党拥有约1万到2万名军队，到1945年时，他们已经扩大至50万人，可能甚至达到100万人。
So they go from the few tens of thousands to seven figure summons, but it comes with them. They claim a million, which I think is slightly propagand, but nonetheless, far more than they began with. And they control much of North China, and of course then they have the opportunity to flood into a mature, with the turn into a base from which they will occupy all of China.
他们的诉求从几万人到达了七位数，但这是伴随着他们的。他们宣称需要一百万，我认为这有一定的宣传效果，但无论如何已经远远超出了他们的起点。他们控制了华北的大部分地区，当然他们有机会涌入一个成熟的基地，从而占领整个中国。
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Now I think that I don't, I wouldn't challenge that basic narrative, that the Japanese occupation, the. Japanese invasion creates the opportunities militarily, socially, economically, for the communist victory to happen. And I think there's a good deal of truth in saying that by 1945 the nationalists were simply too exhausted. And I think the withdrawal of the United States from Eastern Asia, the attempted withdrawal from the United States, is an important factor as well.
我认为，日本占领和入侵创造了军事、社会、经济方面的机遇，促使共产主义取得胜利。我认为说1945年时，国民党已经筋疲力尽，这种说法也有一定的真相。此外，美国对东亚地区的撤离和试图撤离都是一个重要因素。
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But that's sort of the international context, but the point I want to make in the book is that what we are seeing is the development, and this is why it is important today for an understanding of World War II. I think also for military affairs today, what comes out of this is, well as an anthropologist would call it a new modality of warfare.
但这是国际背景，我在这本书中要表达的重点是，我们看到的是发展，这也是今天理解第二次世界大战的重要性所在。我认为，对于今天的军事事务来说，从中可以得出一个类似于人类学家所说的新的战争方式。
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And what would a non anthropologist call it? How would you explain that? A non-clous Norwegian model of warfare, as military historians would call it. And for those of us who speak plain English, you're talking about different ways of fighting war, and that's what the war is. What are the changes? It's a different approach to warfare.
非人类学家会怎么称呼它呢？你怎么解释呢？军事历史学家称之为非克劳斯挪威战争模式。对于我们这些使用普通英语的人来说，你所谈论的是不同的战争方式，那就是战争。改变了什么？这是一种不同的战争方式。
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And I think the book is constructed as the Japanese and the nationalist beginning, what we would call conventional warfare, conventional, how's which in warfare, which is large armies, supported by industry, supported by a modern government, fighting on the battlefield in one wind and the other doesn't, and then you have some sort of treaty or occupation and a thing.
我认为这本书描述了日本和民族主义的开始，这是一种我们称之为传统战争的方式，就是利用大军队、工业和现代政府的支持来进行战争。在战场上进行交战，最后签订条约或指定占领势力。
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So in other words, what we generally think of when we think of war, you know, many in uniforms with weapons fighting each other on a battlefield, that sort of thing. And I think what World War II does generally is ending that kind of warfare, where of course the power of a state is heavily dependent on how many men it can bring into the field, because each man will carry a gun or a machine gun and that sort of your power.
换言之，我们通常想到战争时，会想到许多身穿制服，持有武器在战场上相互搏斗的场景，这类场景。我认为，第二次世界大战结束了这类战争，因为国家的实力很大程度上取决于可以带多少人上战场，因为每个人会携带一支枪或一把机枪，这就是你的实力来源。
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And that changes as a result of World War II, I think in two ways, well in a number of ways, but on one end one comes out of this, not even in the long run, by 1945 is nuclear war or atomic warfare, which is of course, you know, you have something you don't need so many men in the field to destroy your enemy, you drop one bomb, that's it, that's enough done.
第二次世界大战带来了许多变化，其中一个是在1945年，核战争或原子战争的出现。这种战争只需要一颗炸弹就能摧毁敌人，因此不需要太多士兵参战。
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And clearly that shapes the post-war order in very fundamental ways, but I think the other side of this, and you know, conventional will continue in some ways, but the other side that comes out of this is what I would call national liberation war. And that in Mao has an important contribution in that, that is asymmetrical warfare as you would understand it, so the communists didn't have very powerful weapons, although they got a lot from the Japanese in the end, but they use what they have in new kinds of ways, and they avoid the battlefield.
很明显，这种影响了战后秩序的基本方式，但我认为这个问题的另一面，也就是国家解放战争，在某些方面仍将继续进行。毛泽东在这方面做出了重要贡献，即所谓的不对称战争，你可以理解为共产党人并没有很强大的武器，虽然他们最终从日本获得了很多，但他们用新的方法利用现有资源，并避免战场。
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They are very unconventional by the time, by the standards of the time, not in trying to seek out the critical weak point in the enemy formation, but spreading it out across a very large area. They also, in this kind of national liberation warfare, what is important is the mobilization of the population ideologically, and that land reform in China was very important to bring the population.
在那个时代的标准下，他们非常不传统，不是试图寻找敌人阵型的关键弱点，而是将其分散在一个非常大的区域内。在这种民族解放战争中，重要的是从思想上动员人民，而中国的土地改革对于吸引人口非常重要。
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That's a social change, just sticking to the warfare for a moment, asymmetric one phrasing, a phrase that an awful lot of people may have heard of, and which they might associate with Mao Zedong, the communist leader of in the wartime period, is guerrilla warfare.
这是一种社会变革。现在，只是暂时谈论战争的话题，非对称性战争是一个广为人知的术语，很多人可能会将其与战时时期的共产主义领袖毛泽东联系起来，这一术语是关于游击战的。
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When you say national liberation warfare, is it that sort of guerrilla tactics that you're talking about? As Mao would call it yes, but I think guerrilla warfare, this is where the change is, a traditional understanding of guerrilla warfare, it's sort of as a last resort. You've lost the battle, you go into the forest in the mountains. It's harassment, it's harassment.
当你提到国家解放战争时，你指的是那种游击战术吗？正如毛泽东所说的那样，但我认为游击战争的变化在于，传统上对游击战争的理解是一种最后的手段。你已经输了战斗，然后你到森林或山区中去。这是骚扰，就是骚扰。
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And Mao said, no, you're not going to win that way, and very early on, he decides that that isn't what you know. He has fought that kind of warfare in the 30s and it has failed, so he is searching for a new way of warfare, and that yes, you begin with guerrilla warfare, but you also build very large bases, you govern them.
毛泽东说，你不会这样获胜的，他很早就决定这不是正确的方法。他在30年代曾经尝试过这种战争方式，但失败了。因此，他正在寻找一种新的战争方式，要在游击战的基础上，建立非常大的基地并加以管理。
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You conduct these propaganda campaigns through modern media to the extent that it existed at the time, but certainly newspapers and radio was very important in Mao's interest. And also indoctrination tactics with the population.
您通过当时存在的现代媒体来进行这些宣传活动，但毛泽东特别注重报纸和广播的影响力。同时，您采用了灌输策略来影响人们的思想。
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And you draw the population into what you're trying to do, and you use the population in all kinds of ways. And for him, what he called Maoist guerrilla warfare, well, he called guerrilla warfare in a Maoist way, was then to build up those bases and gain the ability to wait the large scale battles that you would ultimately need to defeat the enemy.
你把人口吸引到你所尝试的事情中，并以各种方式利用人口。对他来说，所谓的毛派游击战争，也就是用毛派的方式进行的游击战争，是建立这些基地并获得等待最终需要打败敌人的大规模战斗的能力。
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And Mao was never just guerrilla warfare in the way that we might have understood it traditionally. It was always moving towards these large scale battles. Because if we think about the way in which. the war goes on, one of the things that is very distinctive about the way you put the book is that you could almost read it as one long set of wars from let's say 1937, when you know the major war breaks up between China and Japan. And 1953, which is the end of the Korean War.
毛泽东的游击战并不仅仅是我们传统意义上理解的那种。它总是朝着大规模战争的方向发展。如果我们考虑战争进行的方式，你可以把这本书看作是从1937年开始，当时中日之间爆发了重大战争，一直到1953年朝鲜战争结束为止，就像是一个漫长的战争描述。
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So in that time, we have three wars. We have the Second World War in China, the War of Resistance against Japan. And then from 1946 to 49, we have the Civil War between nationalists and communists. And then almost a year later, with barely a space to breathe, the Korean War starts with the North Koreans, the Chinese and the implicit support of the Soviet Union behind them launching a war that lasts from 1950 to 1953.
在那段时间里，我们历经了三场战争。首先是中国的抗日战争，即第二次世界大战。然后从1946年到1949年，发生了国共内战。接着，在几乎没有喘息之机的情况下，朝鲜战争爆发了，朝鲜和中国联合军队，背后还有苏联的暗中支持，进行了总时长为1950年到1953年的战争。
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Does military tactics and techniques change for the Chinese of that time? Are they learning particularly the Chinese Communist, are they learning and adapting over the course of those three wars in a dozen years? Yeah, they are. And I think the reason I put so much emphasis on this development is because it is sort of the opposite of atomic warfare. But at least as influential because you get the same kind of fighting in Vietnam, in at least the many other areas of the world.
那个时代的中国军事战术和技术有改变吗？他们特别学习中国共产党的战术吗？在那十二年的三场战争中，他们是否在学习和适应？是的，他们是在改变和进步的。我强调这种发展的原因是因为它与原子战争相反，但至少同样具有影响力，因为你会在越南和其他许多地区看到同样类型的战斗。
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And as we now know, the founders of Al Qaeda strategy read their Mao. Really? Yes, according to the British State Department they do. So I'll take their intelligence for it. And that makes sense. You have in the same way that Mao read Closowitz. And I think it's these circulations that I find very interesting.
正如我们现在所知道的，基地组织策略的创始人们读过毛泽东的著作。真的吗？是的，根据英国国务院的说法是这样的。因此，我会相信他们的情报。这是有道理的。就像毛泽东也曾经读过克劳塞维茨的著作一样。我认为这些相互之间的联系非常有趣。
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But to go back to your original question about this, about sort of, you're right, I defined as this period as 1937, 1953. And as you say, there are sort of three wars. And I think they are interlinked that it would be my argument.
但是回到你最初的问题，关于这个，你说得对，我把这个时期定义为1937年到1953年。正如你所说，有三场战争。我认为它们是相互关联的，这就是我的观点。
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So if you have the Japanese and the nationalists begin conventional war. But by 1938, 1939, they realize that's not going to work. We're not going to control China as a result. So they begin to experiment with different ways. So the Japanese... Just explain that. That's because in the end China is just very big, very rural, holding it down conventionally with lots of troops stationed. It's like sort of pouring a small amount of water into a massive frying pan. So that's a lovely image. Not going to work.
因此，如果你让日本和民族主义者开始一场常规战争。但是到了1938年、1939年，他们意识到这不可能行得通。结果我们不能掌控中国。因此，他们开始尝试不同的方法。例如日本……只要解释一下就行了。因为最终的结果是中国人口众多，大部分地区都很偏远，以传统方式用大量驻军控制是不可行的。这就好比在一个巨大的炒锅里倒入少量水的情况。所以这是一个很形象的比喻。这种做法是不行的。
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And so they do two things. They begin aerial bombardment and they're trying to create a new China in their terms, which is a very federalist China. Which actually I think for which there was much more support than we probably think. I think that's right. And from your readings of Joe Fohai and Wang Jingwei, you will have seen that it is probably the case. So there wasn't a stupid move at all. But it doesn't work. Which again demonstrates how serious ultimately China was about not having the Japanese run their country. To the nationalists themselves sort of they spread out the war and they tried to keep it going but waiting for a foreign assistance either the USSR or the USA. And that sort of gets stuck and it doesn't work.
因此，他们采取了两种行动。他们开始进行空中轰炸，并试图按照他们的手段创建一个新的中国，这是一个非常联邦主义的中国。实际上，我认为对此的支持比我们想象中要多得多。我认为这是正确的。从你对佛海和汪精卫的阅读中，你会看到这可能是事实。因此，这并不是一个愚蠢的举动。但是这并不起作用。这再次证明了中国最终是多么认真地不让日本人控制他们的国家。对于民族主义者来说，他们将战争推向四面八方，并试图让它继续下去，等待外国援助，无论是苏联还是美国。这种情况陷入僵局，无法解决。
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The new USA comes in and that changes the nature of the war. It's sort of China can export its violence outside its borders at Doso in Burma. And then suddenly it all ends. But by that time the communists have built up their base areas, their men power, accumulated weapons, trained their forces and they can flood into Nigeria.
新兴的美国加入了战争，改变了战争的性质。就像中国在缅甸的多索可以输出暴力一样，突然间一切都结束了。但是到了那个时候，共产党已经建立了他们的基地区域，招募了大量人力，积累了武器，训练了他们的力量，他们可以涌入尼日利亚。
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So it's 1949. Maldives communist forces have finally defeated the nationalist forces of Chankha Shek. Chankha Shek has been sent, has gone to Taiwan in exile, never to return as it turns out. And the official story, if you go to read any textbook in China and goodness knows I've read a few of them, is that that is when a new peaceful stable regime is set up. And 1949 is the beginning of new China, capital N, capital C, right? Right sort of.
1949年，马尔代夫的共产军队最终击败了张学良的民族主义军队。张学良被流放到台湾，从此未能返回。如果你去阅读中国的任何一本教科书，无论我已经读过几本，官方故事是这样解释的：这是一个崭新的和平稳定的政权建立的时间。而1949年正是新中国的开始，大写的 N，大写的 C，对吗？其实也差不多。
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But not entirely. But not entirely in this sense that we keep, just keep in mind that nationalist forces continue to fight in China well until 1949. So these are Chankha Shek's, right? Chankha Shek's forces. You have Muslim forces. The famous Ma family fighting from Mongolia. It's a recent continuous from Burma. But I think more importantly, there's so much upheaval in the country going on. There's so many guerrillas, bandits, whatever, that this is not a society at peace.
然而，这并不是完全正确的。请记住国家主义力量一直在中国战斗，直到1949年。这些就是蒋介石的力量，还有穆斯林力量，著名的马家军在蒙古作战，最近从缅甸而来。但我认为更重要的是，这个国家正在经历巨大的动荡。那里有很多游击队、土匪等，这不是一个和平的社会。
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But then comes the challenge of Korea. The Korean War. And that is, we can talk, I think for a long time about this. But that is I think where Mao's National Liberation War finds out that its power to is limited.
但随后出现了挑战，即朝鲜战争。我想我们可以长时间谈论这个问题。但是这也是毛泽东国民解放战争发现自己的力量有限的地方。
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We don't have to go into detail about the Korean War, but let's say the Americans come in and they push the North Koreans back. Then the Chinese believe that they have to enter. They do many of the sort of guerrilla things that they've learned during the Civil War. They're going behind enemy lines, spreading out, waiting that kind of guerrilla warfare.
我们不必详细讨论朝鲜战争，但假设美国人进来并将朝鲜人赶回去。然后中国人相信他们必须进入。他们会使用在内战中学到的很多游击战术，穿越敌人阵线、展开战线、等待进行游击战等。
Paragraph 1: and tearing the whole battlefield out through very large areas. And they do very well. But then the Americans are challenged to say, do we fight back or not? Probably more of a result of situation in Europe than the whole idea that Korea is called war.
第一段：他们摧毁整个战场，并扩大了其范围，表现得非常出色。但随后，面临的问题是美国是否应该反击。这种情况可能更多地是欧洲局势的结果，而不是将韩国称为战争的整个概念。
Paragraph 2: The idea that Korea is clearly not a strategic threat to the United States. But by this time you have the Cold War beginning. You have the idea that we have to contain the United Soviet Union. And so Korea becomes a test of that resolve. And the Americans under Truman put in lots of forces. And they stabilize at the 38th parallel.
第二段：韩国明显不是美国的战略威胁，但在这个时候，冷战已经开始了。我们认为我们必须遏制苏联，而韩国成为了这种决心的试金石。美国在杜鲁门的领导下派出了大量军队，并在38度线稳定了局面。
Paragraph 3: Mao continues to push for offensive against the Americans until he must accept that he cannot win. The hope of a communist victory across Northeast Asia, including Manchuria, remains very strong in China, of course, in North Korea, as well as in the Soviet Union. But in the end, the kinds of military power that Mao has by did time is not enough to dislodge the Americans.
第三段：毛继续推动对美国的进攻，直到他不得不承认自己无法取得胜利。当然，在中国、朝鲜和苏联，实现东北亚包括满洲到共产主义胜利的希望仍然非常强烈。但最终，毛此时所拥有的军事力量不足以驱逐美国人。
Paragraph 4: The Americans are not willing to pay the price for going all the way to Beijing, for instance, or doing anything they did. So I think by this time, so it was 1953, end of the Korean War, Stalin is dead. There is an acceptance all around that borders are going to be stabilized in the way with which we still live.
美国人不愿意付出代价去北京或做他们所做的任何事情。我认为此时已经是1953年，朝鲜战争结束，斯大林去世了。人们普遍接受边界将会得到稳定，就像我们现在所生活的方式。
Paragraph 5: We're coming towards the end of the conversation. I want to just throw some thoughts at you about some of the contemporary legacy of all of this. Because you're dealing with history. But I sometimes like to say that this whole wartime period in Europe is history. In Asia, it's basically current affairs, even today.
我们的谈话即将结束。我想向你表达一些关于这一切的当代遗产的想法。因为你正在处理历史。但是我有时候会说，整个欧洲战时期都是历史。在亚洲，即使在今天，它基本上仍是时事新闻。
Paragraph 6: And the three wars we mentioned, the Second World War in China, the Civil War, and the Korean War. They'll actually have a tremendous amount of impact in the way that the region is shaped and deals with its own traumas and issues in the present-day.
我们提到的三场战争，即在中国的第二次世界大战、内战和朝鲜战争，实际上将会对塑造这个地区的方式以及现今面对自身创伤和问题产生巨大的影响。
Paragraph 7: What do you think these wars mean to the Chinese people today? Do they think about them? And if so, how do they think about them? Well, I'm sure you remember from our Superficians, whenever I read this, they're Chinese people. I just want to tell that Hans has passed form as someone who actually attempted to teach me many, many years ago.
你认为这些战争对中国人今天意味着什么？他们会想到它们吗？如果是，他们是怎么想的？我相信你们还记得我们的Superficians，每当我读到这个问题，就是在问中国人。我想告诉大家，Hans曾经试图在很多年前教授我中文。
Paragraph 8: You made your judge have successful or otherwise. He wasn't that indefinitely. So, yes, I better. The Chinese people is too big a chunk for me to do. I think that's probably because it's various levels. The Chinese government today is using World War II in much the same way that the Russian, British, the Dutch, the French, maybe less the French.
第8段：你让你的法官变得成功或失败。他并不是无限的。所以，是的，我最好还是不要翻译整个中国人。我认为这可能是因为中国有各种层次。今天的中国政府正以与俄罗斯、英国、荷兰和法国不同但可能较少的方式使用第二次世界大战。
Paragraph 9: The American governments are using World War II and that is about creating a national story that tries to bind people together. This was a good war where we fought eager. It's a feel-good type narrative. And I think that's fair enough. I could get beautifully in your own book.
美国政府正在利用二战，试图创造一个民族故事，以团结人民。这是一场我们积极参战的美好战争。这是一种让人感觉舒适的故事叙述方式。我认为这是很恰当的。我可以在你自己的书中美妙地表达这个概念。
Paragraph 10: So, I have no problems with that. I think at different levels there is still a lot to be thought about. And at lower levels you can see the different sorts of commemoration. People are beginning to talk about the Wang Jingwei, the collaborationist element. The equivalent of Peter, who loves our remains in the French.
因此，我对这一点没有任何问题。我认为，在不同层面还有许多需要思考的地方。在更低层次上，你可以看到不同种类的纪念活动。人们开始谈论汪精卫和投降派的元素。这相当于在法国喜欢我们的遗骸的彼得一样。
Paragraph 11: Yes, his poetry is widely admired, even though prescribed, but circulates, which I think is very interesting. But it does. When I talked with people, they said, oh, yes, Wang Jingwei is poetry. Very good poetry. So, it is known. So, I think there's probably a greater sophistication than commemoration.
第11段：是的，尽管它是被推荐的，但他的诗歌广受赞赏，而且很受欢迎。我认为这很有趣。当我与人们交谈时，他们说：“是的，王静巍的诗很好，非常出色。”所以，他的作品是众所周知的。因此，我认为这可能不仅仅是简单的纪念，还有更加复杂的内涵。
Paragraph 12: I was very interesting. I have had, I teach some of this. Of course, I have seminars with Chinese people there. And they are very suspicious of the central narrative they have. What they do find when I sort of make comparisons with war commemoration in here and the United States or in Europe, is I think there's a longing for local commemoration to see the individual stories of each individual.
第12段：我非常有趣。我教授了一些关于这方面的知识。当然，我也和中国人一起举办研讨会。他们对他们所拥有的核心叙事非常怀疑。当我拿战争纪念在这里和美国或欧洲进行比较时，他们发现的是渴望地方纪念，想看到每个个体的个人故事。
Paragraph 13: So, in town, soldiers or the village that was burnt down nearby, that sort of thing. That kind of story is a, I think was a real longing for. And as I'm sure you know, the Chinese are perfectly capable of taking the Mickey out of any central narrative. You have to come on the Chinese internet these days to see all the sarcastic comments, yes. So, in that sense, it's complicated.
因此，这种在城镇里或附近被烧毁的村庄中所发生的事情就成为了人们渴望了解的故事。正如你所知道的那样，中国人非常擅长嘲讽中心叙事。现在，你必须去中国的网络上看看那些讽刺的评论。因此，就在这个意义上，问题就变得复杂了。
Paragraph 14: But I think the point that this is still alive and remains something that is still in the process of being discovered at deeper levels is very true. And that is very important. But something perhaps to finish off that is not yet deep, I think, is Western understanding of these conflicts and their significance.
但是我认为这仍然是有生命力的，并且仍在深层次的发现中，这是非常真实的。这非常重要。但是，也许有一些还没有深入了解的东西，那就是西方对这些冲突及其意义的理解。
Paragraph 1: So, in the end, if you have readers and you know, those listening in will primarily, I think, from the Anglophone world. And they'll have, you know, I think perhaps not had as much exposure to the history of China World War II as is the case for say Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, Japan and the Pacific, the United States.
最后，如果你有读者，并且你知道那些在听的人主要来自英语国家。他们可能没有像对待纳粹德国、苏联、日本和太平洋、美国那样对中国在第二次世界大战中的历史有足够的了解。
Paragraph 2: So, if someone listening is moved and I hope they are to order a China at war and read through, what would you want them to come out? knowing or thinking about China's role, particularly perhaps in World War II during this period? What would you like to understand that perhaps you have a sense that people don't understand at the moment?
如果有人倾听了我们所讲述的内容并深受感动，我希望他们能够订购一本关于中国在二战期间的书籍并仔细阅读。您希望他们通过阅读理解或思考中国在这个时期内的作用，特别是在二战期间的作用吗？或者您想让他们了解什么，而目前人们可能还没有意识到的呢？
Paragraph 3: I think two things. One is that when we talk about World War II, it is very important that we talk or have in mind a global perspective, that we see World War II in all its diversity. Yes, there was a unified World War II. Yes, there were the Allies. Yes, there was collaboration at that point. But there was also lots of regional difference. And of that, we need to be much more aware.
我认为有两个问题。一是，在谈论二战时，非常重要的是我们应该从全球的角度来看待它，并要将二战的多样性考虑在内。是的，二战确实是一场全球性的战争。是的，还有盟国的存在。当时也有合作。但是，也存在着很多地区差异，我们需要更加意识到这一点。
Paragraph 4: And I think China is a very good case study for seeing that kind of difference. But for other areas, the Middle East, Africa, going, you can go on and on, Southeast Asia, that is all important. I think the other aspect of one is that war was all on-composing. But we have to have an eye for the human story, the humanity that is at the bottom of all this. And that it won't do to have a very simplified heroic narrative.
我认为中国是一个很好的案例，可以看出这种差异。但对于其他地区，例如中东、非洲、东南亚等地，这些都是很重要的。我认为另一个方面是战争一直是不可避免的。但我们必须关注人的故事，关注在所有这些背后的人性。而且，简单的英雄叙事是不足够的。
Paragraph 5: And that sort of the human story behind all this is very important. I mean, heroism is one thing. Another phrase that came to mind maybe a word is gratitude. Is there any sense in which the West we ought to perhaps just be a little more grateful for China deciding that it would fight Japan in the very dark days of 1937, 1938, 1939? Yes, and that is of course the point you have made brilliantly.
第五段：所有这些背后的人性故事非常重要。我的意思是，英雄主义是一回事，另一个我想到的词可能是感激。在某种意义上，西方是否应该稍微更感激中国决定在1937年、1938年、1939年这些非常黑暗的日子里与日本作战？是的，这正是你所说的精髓。
Paragraph 6: I think that is sort of what's behind your argument there. It is part of our story as much as of it is not just a damn story. We have to see them as them in the sense that it isn't the same as us. But when we talk about a global history of Wulfford, then it is all our story. And that complexity we must see.
我认为这就是你的观点背后的原因。它既是我们的故事，也不只是一部可忽略的故事。我们必须将它们看作是“它们”，意味着它们不同于我们。但当我们谈论Wulfford的全球历史时，它就是我们所有人的故事。我们必须看到这种复杂性。
Paragraph 7: That was Hans van de Ven in conversation with Ranamitra. China at war, triumph and tragedy in the emergence of the new China will be published later this month in the UK by profile. And in the US it will be available as a Kindle edition.
这是Hans van de Ven与Ranamitra的访谈。《中国战争：新中国崛起中的胜利与悲剧》将于本月末在英国由Profile出版。在美国，它将作为Kindle版提供。
Paragraph 8: For more on this subject you might also be interested in Ranamitra's book, China's War with Japan, 1937 to 1945, The Struggle for Survival, which was published back in 2013 by Alan Lane.
关于这个主题，您可能还会对Ranamitra的书《中国与日本的战争，1937年至1945年，求生之战》感兴趣，这本书于2013年由Alan Lane出版。
Paragraph 9: Meanwhile, you can read a written version of Hans and Ranam's conversation in issue five of BBC World History's magazine, which is currently on sale.
与此同时，您可以在目前发售的BBC《世界历史》杂志的第五期中阅读Hans和Ranam交谈的书面版本。
Paragraph 10: You can find it in many good retailers and order it direct from us via the website by subscriptions.com. Now before we go, don't forget that tickets for our live events at Winchester and York are currently on sale.
第10段：你可以在许多良好的零售商那里找到它，或通过subscriptions.com网站直接向我们订购。现在在我们离开之前，请不要忘记Winchester和York的现场活动门票目前正在出售。
Paragraph 11: The weekends take place from the 6th to 8th of October and 24th to 26th November respectively. And talks are now beginning to sell out. Head to historyweekend.com for more details and to purchase tickets.
周末活动将分别在10月6日至8日和11月24日至26日举行，已经开始卖出了部分座位。请前往historyweekend.com了解更多细节并购买门票。
Paragraph 12: Well that's about it for today but please do join us again on Thursday when we'll be delving into a shocking crime story from 1970s Iceland.
今天的节目就到这里了，但请大家周四再次加入我们，我们将深入探讨1970年代冰岛的一起令人震惊的犯罪故事。
Paragraph 13: Thanks for listening to this History Extra podcast, which was produced by Jack Fletcher. Do let us know what you think about this episode by emailing podcast at historyextra.com and we might read out your messages in future editions.
第13段：感谢您收听本期历史Extra播客，这一期是由杰克·弗莱彻制作的。如果您有任何对这一集的想法，请发送电子邮件至podcast@historyextra.com，我们可能会在未来的版本中读出您的留言。
Paragraph 14: Alternatively, why not keep in touch via Twitter or Facebook, where you'll find us at History Extra. For more great history content, don't forget to visit our website historyextra.com, which is full of history articles, quizzes, image galleries and more. Plus, it's where you can download hundreds of previous episodes of this podcast.
你也可以通过Twitter或Facebook与我们保持联系，我们的账号是“History Extra”。如果你想了解更多优秀的历史内容，请不要忘记访问我们的网站historyextra.com，那里有很多历史文章、测验、图库等等。此外，你还可以在这个网站上下载数百个之前的播客。