Decoding the First Hours of Life: Circumambulations & Primary Directions
发布时间 2026-04-08 16:00:02 来源
Hi, and welcome. I'm Joey Canizzaro, and I'm joined by my fellow faculty at Kepler College, Anthony Lewis and Nadia Anderson. We wanted to have a conversation today about two interrelated but distinct timing techniques, circumambulations and primary directions. And this seemed like a great opportunity to bring faculty from different certificates, different programs at Kepler together for a conversation. So that's our plan. Basic profiler explanation of these two techniques for those of you who are like, what are you even talking about when you're saying circumambulations and primary directions? Let's jump in.
你好，欢迎光临。我是乔伊·卡尼扎罗，与我一起的是克卜勒学院的同事安东尼·刘易斯和纳迪娅·安德森。今天，我们想讨论两个相关但不同的计时技巧：周行和主导方向。这次对话是个很好的机会，让来自克卜勒学院不同证书和不同项目的教师们聚在一起。因此，这就是我们的计划。对于那些对周行和主导方向这些术语感到困惑的朋友，我们将简单介绍一下这两种技巧。让我们开始吧。
Nadia Anderson is an astrologer and researcher specializing in ancient astrological traditions, integrating Babylonian, Hellenistic and medieval Arabic sources. She teaches in the Hellenistic Astrology Certificate Program at Kepler College and has trained extensively with Demetri George as well as Benjamin Dykes. Anthony Lewis is a retired psychiatrist who's been studying astrology as a serious avocation since his early teens. His longstanding interest in the history and symbolism of the divinatory arts has led him to lecture internationally and publish numerous articles and books on astrology, tarot, and other forms of divination.
Nadia Anderson 是一位占星师和研究人员，专注于古代占星学传统，整合了巴比伦、希腊化和中世纪阿拉伯的资料。她在凯普勒学院的希腊化占星证书项目中任教，并曾师从Demetri George和Benjamin Dykes进行深入培训。Anthony Lewis 是一位退休的精神科医生，从少年时期就开始认真研究占星学。他长期以来对占卜艺术的历史和象征意义的兴趣，使他在国际上进行演讲，并发表了许多关于占星术、塔罗牌和其他占卜形式的文章和书籍。
His highly acclaimed text on horror astrology first appeared in 1991 and was revised and reissued in 1996. His book Tarot, plain and simple, now has over 150,000 copies in print. In January of 2026, as a teacher in the medieval astrology curriculum, he offered a course on primary directions at Kepler College. Anthony is a member of the Astrological Society of Connecticut. You can find his blog at tonylewis.wordpress.com. So again, just thank you so much for being here, both of you. And let's talk about circumambulations in primary directions.
他的广受好评的恐怖占星学著作首次发表于1991年，并于1996年进行了修订和再版。他的书《塔罗，简单明了》，目前已印刷超过15万册。2026年1月，作为一名中世纪占星学课程的教师，他在开普勒学院开设了一门关于本命推运的课程。安东尼是康涅狄格州占星学会的成员。你可以在 tonylewis.wordpress.com 找到他的博客。再次感谢你们俩的参与。现在我们来谈谈本命推运中的交接。
I'm so thrilled also to be having this conversation with both of you, really looking at this relationship between primary directions and circumambulations, which I really feel are like two sides of the same coin in so many ways. Like, I think there's differences with them that I'm excited to talk through with both of you. But there's also so much that's similar, a shared history, and they're both based in the same astronomical phenomenon of primary motion, which is very important for both of them.
我非常激动能和你们俩进行这次对话，深入探讨本命方向和环行两者之间的关系。我觉得它们在很多方面就像同一枚硬币的两面。我很期待和你们一起讨论它们之间的不同之处。但同时，这两者有很多相似之处，有着共同的历史背景，并且都基于同样的重要天文现象——自主运动，这对它们都非常重要。
So I thought what I would do is start by just talking through circumambulations as a technique and really emphasizing how important primary motion is to the technique. One of the things that I really, really love about circumambulations is that even though there's aspects of it that can be incredibly complex, like the calculations in particular, but also the interpretive nuance that goes into the technique, even though those things are complex, the actual technique is grounded in something that is incredibly simple, which is observational astronomy.
所以我想，我会先从讲解环行术开始，并强调初始运动对这个技巧的重要性。我非常喜欢环行术的一点是，尽管其中有些方面可能非常复杂，比如计算，尤其是解释时的细微差异等，尽管这些部分很复杂，但这个技巧实际上是基于非常简单的东西——也就是观测天文学。
And hopefully that is very clear on this slide that we're looking at. So this is the sky at the moment that Andrea Bocelli was born. And we'll be looking at Bocelli's chart throughout today's conversation. So what I want to do right now is just play a kind of animation of the sky's movement in the first six hours or so after he was born. So pay attention to the ascendant, the eastern horizon, and then you'll see as the sky begins to rotate with primary motion, the different planets will rise, culminate, and eventually set on the western horizon.
希望这张幻灯片上展示的内容非常清楚。这是安德烈·波切利出生时的天空情况。在今天的谈话中，我们将一直关注波切利的星盘。现在，我想播放一个动画，展示波切利出生后的大约六个小时内天空的变化。请注意上升点（东方地平线），随着天空的主要运动旋转，你会看到不同的行星在东方升起，然后达到最高点，最终在西方地平线上落下。
So if we pause it here, this has actually been about six hours since Bocelli was born. It moves quickly. And you'll notice that on the eastern horizon, Saturn is rising. So Saturn is activating the ascendant. Saturn is in Sagittarius in the bounds of Saturn. So those bounds are also activating the ascendant. And this is exactly what astrologers are looking at with circumambulations is they're paying attention to this movement of the planets and the bounds in the sky in the hours after birth.
如果我们在这里暂停一下，实际上从Bocelli出生到现在已经过去了大约六个小时。时间过得很快。你会注意到，在东方地平线上，土星正在上升。土星正在激活上升点。土星位于射手座，处于土星的界限内。因此，这些界限也正在激活上升点。这正是占星师在做周行占星时所观察的：他们关注的是出生后几个小时内行星和天空中界限的位置变化。
And they're treating that motion as a kind of symbolic unfolding of the entire life. So that movement, I'll just say like, very high level is measured with ascensional times, traditionally in the technique of circumambulations. So we would say that roughly a degree rising on the ascendant would correspond to a year of life. We all know that, you know, depending on our latitude and the signs of short and long ascension, like that will change a little bit. So that's a very rough estimation.
他们把这种运动视作整个生命的一种象征性展开。简单来说，这种运动通常通过上升的时间来衡量，传统上使用的是循环绕行的方法。也就是说，大致上，上升星座上的一度对应于一年的生命。我们都知道，取决于我们的纬度以及短升和长升的星座，这种对应关系会有些变化。因此，这只是一个非常粗略的估计。
So that's a very rough estimation. And the calculations can become more complex. But at its core, the technique is like very beautifully simple. It's looking at this motion of the primary motion of the sky. It's treating that as a sort of symbolic unfolding of the life over time. And it's looking at the planets that are activating the chart and a specific point in the chart and treating those as time lords. So that is a sort of overview.
所以这是一个非常粗略的估算。计算可能会变得更加复杂。但其核心技术实际上非常简单优美。它观察天空的主要运动，并将其视为生命随着时间展开的一种象征性表现。在这个过程中，它关注那些激活星盘和星盘中特定点的行星，并将这些行星视为“时间主宰者”。这就是一个大致的概述。
Now, if we change perspective, we've been looking at this 3D model of the celestial sphere. If we now look at the sky at the exact same moment that Bocelli was born, but now from the perspective of a 2D birth chart, I'm going to just recreate that same six hours of primary motion. So we'll pay attention to the ascendant and we'll make that same red line, which shows the movement of the planets and stars rising up over the eastern horizon. But now you'll notice that instead of seeing the stars rising up in a clockwise direction, we're seeing this movement happening in a counterclockwise motion. So it's just really important to know that we're looking at the exact same details, but our perspective has shifted. It's so helpful to see it that way. Thank you, Nadia, for the visual of the three dimensions and then the two dimensions of the chart.
现在，我们转换一下视角。之前我们一直在看天球的三维模型。现在，如果我们回到博切利出生的那一刻，以二维星盘的视角来看天空，我将重现那六个小时的主运动。我们会关注上升点，并画出相同的红线，显示行星和星星从东方地平线上升起的运动。不过现在你会注意到，星星的上升方向不再是顺时针的，而是逆时针的。这表明我们看的细节是完全相同的，只是视角改变了。以这种方式来理解真的是非常有帮助的。感谢Nadia展示了这个三维和二维图表的视觉效果。
Totally. Yeah, because it's like very counterintuitive. And when I was first learning this technique, that didn't instantly click for me. And I think once you realize that like it really is this tracking of the shifting degrees that are rising across the ascendant, you begin to understand like how powerful this technique is and how simple. So we are just again looking at that circumambulation of the stars and the planets. And that's really where the name circumambulations comes from. It means to walk around. So we're just observing the planets and the stars that are circumambulating through the sky. And we are, again, just observing how they are stimulating different points in the chart and bringing forth their natal significations when they are activated.
当然。是的，因为这技巧确实非常反直觉。当我第一次学习这项技术时，并没有马上理解。不过，我觉得一旦你意识到这实际上是追踪上升星座正在变化的度数时，你就会明白这项技术有多么强大和简单。我们再次关注的是恒星和行星的“绕行”。这个名字“绕行”就是由此而来的，意思是“绕着走”。所以我们只是在观察那些在天空中绕行的恒星和行星。我们又在观察它们如何激发星盘上的不同点，并在被激活时带出它们的本命意义。
Two important vocabulary terms that we'll probably use throughout today's conversation. In this example, we've been looking at the ascendant as the releaser. So the ascendant has been the starting point from which we are moving. And then that moving point that we've seen right now moving counterclockwise through the chart is called the distribution. So the releaser is the starting point. It can also be called the Hylig. It can also be called the significator. And the distribution is that moving point. These are two right slides. And they're really two ways of looking at the same phenomenon. In the first one, where you're standing on the Earth and looking along the horizon and watching what's rising over the horizon.
在今天的对话中，我们可能会用到两个重要的词汇。在这个例子中，我们将上升点（Ascendant）视为起点。因此，上升点是我们开始移动的起点。接着，我们观察到的逆时针在图表中移动的点被称为“分布点”（Distribution）。所以，起始点也可以被称为“释放点”，也可以叫做“命主星”或“主星”，而“分布点”就是那个移动的点。这两者提供了两种观察同一现象的方法。在第一种情况下，你站在地球上，沿着地平线观看，观察什么正在地平线上升起。
And it's observational. This is straight from, I guess, Egyptian astrology, because they've studied the horizon every night or every morning when we're interested in what star is rising tonight. And that was a marker for an important phenomenon during the year, especially when Sirius rose in the summer. They would expect the flooding of the Nile and it happened every year. So the importance of knowing what's rising really dominated the civil society. The Egyptians holding the horizon steady because it does appear to be steady. It never moves. It's always your horizon. The stars then come up and rise over the horizon and culminate eventually. In the second figure, instead of letting the stars and the zodiac rotate around the horizon, you're holding the zodiac steady and imagining that the horizon is traveling through the zodiac.
这是一个观察性的知识。这直接来源于埃及占星术，因为他们研究每晚或每日清晨的地平线，看看今晚升起的是什么星星。这是全年重要现象的一个标志，特别是在夏天天狼星升起时，他们会预期尼罗河泛滥，而这确实每年都会发生。因此，了解哪些星星升起非常重要，这对整个社会有很大影响。埃及人认为地平线是静止不动的，因为它看起来确实是稳定的。你的地平线永远不会移动，然后是星星升起并越过地平线，最终达到顶点。
在第二种观念中，不是让星星和黄道带围绕地平线旋转，而是把黄道带固定住，想象地平线在经过黄道带。
It's just another way of looking at the same phenomenon. Of course, when I first learned circumambulations, my image of it was that the ascendant is walking through the zodiac, but really it's the planets walking up over the ascendant, up over the horizon. Right. The sky is always rotating around the earth, so the zodiac is always moving around over the horizon. But another perspective, if you imagine the zodiac isn't moving, then you have to imagine that the horizon is moving through the zodiac. That's such a good point, Anthony, also because, for one, it helps us just understand how this technique probably originated over such a long period of time based on sky watching and observational astronomy.
这只是观察同一现象的另一种方式。当然，当我第一次学习"周行"的时候，我的印象是上升点在穿越黄道，但实际上是行星在上升点上升，并越过地平线。没错，天空总是围绕地球旋转，所以黄道总是在地平线上移动。但从另一个角度看，如果你想象黄道并未移动，那么你需要想象地平线在穿越黄道。这是个很好的观点，Anthony，因为首先，这帮助我们理解这种技术可能是如何在漫长的时间内通过观星和观测天文学而产生的。
And when you do imagine what we're calling the releaser, but like this very vital point in the birth chart, and that that point is held stationary throughout one's life, and you're watching symbolically as the planets and bounds are activating that point, it's like a very beautiful poetic interchange, you know, between this moment of birth and then the continued motion of the sky. Another point just occurs to me is that the importance of the horizon determines the ascendant, the horoscopos, which is the foundation of the astrology that we practice. It's horoscopic astrology, and it was invented probably a couple centuries BC, so that the importance of the rising sign and rising point is what defines the type of astrology we do now.
当你想象我们所称的"释放点"时，它就像是星盘中的一个非常重要的点，这个点在一个人的一生中保持不变。你可以象征性地观察行星和界限如何激活这个点，这就像是一个美丽的诗意互动，是出生时刻与天空持续运动之间的互动。另一个让我想到的点是地平线的重要性，它决定了上升星座，也就是占星学中我们使用的基础。这种占星学被称为本命占星，大概是在公元前几百年发明的。因此，上升星座和上升点的重要性定义了我们如今所实践的占星术类型。
You know, if you're tracking the planets throughout the year, you have to wait a long time to notice movement of a planet, but if you're watching just planets rising over the horizon, then it's six hours and you can see so much action, actually. And those fixed stars are marking your annual calendrical system as well, like the heliacal, I mean the heliacal rises, but also whatever is rising on the ascendant. So, as we were talking about, we are watching this movement of planets and stars rising across the ascendant. In this example, you can use other points as release or not just the ascendant, but the ascendant is very common.
如果你在一年中观测行星，你需要等待很长时间才能注意到行星的移动，但如果你只观察行星在地平线上升起的情况，那么六小时内你就能看到很多动静。而那些恒星也在标记你的全年历系统，比如星升，确切地说是太阳升起时星星的出现。但不只是星升，还有任何位于上升点的东西。所以，如我们谈到的，我们正在观察行星和恒星在上升点的运动。在这个例子中，你也可以使用其他点作为参考，而不仅仅是上升点，但上升点是非常常见的。
One, this movement of the distribution, or what planets and bounds are rising across the horizon, whichever way you want to think about it, is what is going to determine the sequence of time lords that are ruling a specific moment in the native's life. When a planet is activated as time lord, its natal significations as well as its natural significations will become more prominent in the life. And the way that these time lords are determined is we look to the bounds that the distribution is moving through, and those bounds will be the primary time lord.
首先，分布的运动，或者说是哪个星座和界限在地平线上升起，这些因素中的任何一个都会决定一个人在特定时间段内的主行星。当某个行星被激活为时间主宰时，该行星在出生图中的特性以及其自然特性将在生活中变得更加显著。我们通过观察分布运动所经过的界限来确定这些时间主宰，这些界限决定了主要的时间主宰。
And that primary time lord will act sort of like the main administrator for the life of the native during that time. And then the planet that has most recently aspected the distribution will become the participating time lord. And so then these two planets will work together to shape the tone and events of the individual's life while they act as time lords. And just to sort of make that process very clear, I selected two different moments in Bocelli's life to kind of talk through how those time lords are determined.
在这段时间内，那位主要的时间主宰将类似于生命中的主要管理者。然后，最近与分布产生相位关系的行星将成为参与的时间主宰。这两颗行星将一起合作，在它们作为时间主宰期间，塑造个人生活的基调和事件。为了更清晰地展示这个过程，我选择了博切利生命中的两个不同时刻来讨论时间主宰是如何确定的。
So in this first example, the distribution is at three Scorpio. So it's in the bounds of Mars, and the last aspect was a conjunction with Jupiter. So his time lords during this time will be a Mars-Jupiter-time lord combination. Mars would be his primary time lord because the distribution is in the bounds of Mars. And then Jupiter would be his participating time lord because he is the most recent planet to have aspected the distribution. And then in the second example, the distribution is at 20 degrees Libra. So it's in the bounds of Jupiter and having last aspected Saturn by sextile.
在第一个例子中，分配点位于天蝎座三度。这是属于火星的界限，并且最后一次相位是和木星的合相。因此在这段时间里，他的时主组合将是火星-木星组合。火星将是他的主要时主，因为分配点位于火星的界限中。而木星将是他的参与时主，因为木星是最近一个对分配点有相位影响的行星。
在第二个例子中，分配点位于天秤座二十度。这是属于木星的界限，并且最后一次相位是与土星形成六分相。
So we are now in a Jupiter-Saturn time lord period. I would just say I like to think about these different time lord periods as creating kind of chapters in the life of the native. So whenever a planet is activated as time lord, and especially primary time lord, it's almost like that planet's significations and meaning in the natal chart really are highlighted. And, you know, you can see those themes manifesting really clearly in the life. We'll come back to this, but that's also one of the things that I think is somewhat of a distinction between circumambulations and primary directions is circumambulations does always have this focus on this combination of two time lords, like both the primary and the participating throughout the life, and that like tiered partnership between them.
所以我们现在处于木星-土星的时间主时期。我想说，我喜欢把这些不同的时间主时期想象成生命中的各个章节。每当一颗行星被激活为时间主，尤其是主要时间主时，几乎就像那颗行星在本命盘中的象征意义和含义被特别突出一样。你会很清晰地看到这些主题在生活中的显现。我们稍后会回到这个话题，但我认为这也是循环行星与主要方向之间的一个区别。循环行星总是着重于两个时间主的结合，比如生命中的主要和参与者时间主之间的这种分层合作关系。
Do you want to just say very briefly, what are the bounds? What are the terms of the bounds? I mean, just for people who are watching who don't know that in case, you know? The bounds are subsections of each sign of the zodiac, and they are irregular sections. I don't think anyone has really definitively been able to say what the underlying logic of them is. I can't wait until somebody does, but each of the planets, Saturn, Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury, rule a subsection of each of the signs.
你能简单说一下什么是界限吗？界限的条件是什么？就是说，为了那些可能不知道这一点的观众们知道一下。界限是黄道十二宫中的每个星座的子部分，它们是不规则的划分。目前还没有人能明确说明其背后的逻辑。我迫不及待想要知道答案。不过，每颗行星——土星、火星、木星、金星和水星，都会统治每个星座的一个子部分。
The origin of the bounds is a bit unclear. I think current scholarship says they come from Babylonia. And so when Alexander the Great conquered Persia and brought the astrology to Egypt, he brought the astrologers, too, and they brought their bounds. And Ptolemy, in the second century, Common Era, then wrote about the bounds, and he said there's many different sets of bounds. He talked about the set he had discovered, and the Chaldean bounds, and the bounds that the Hellenistic astrologers use are called the Egyptian bounds, but they really are the Babylonian bounds that were taught by the Babylonian teachers to the Egyptian astrologers.
界限的起源有些不清楚。我认为当前的研究认为它们起源于巴比伦。因此，当亚历山大大帝征服波斯并将占星术带到埃及时，他也带来了占星家，他们也带来了他们的界限。随后，托勒密在公元二世纪写到这些界限时提到，存在许多不同的界限。他谈到了他所发现的一组界限，以及迦勒底人的界限，而希腊化时期的占星家使用的界限被称为埃及界限，但实际上，它们是巴比伦教师教给埃及占星家的巴比伦界限。
We just like to confuse people by calling them something they're absolutely not. Well, I think we're discovering more and more of the history. There's a paper by, was it Jones and somebody, I can't remember the other author, where they have tablets or papyrus horoscopes, very early ones from the Hellenistic period, and they look at the bounds and they say, even though they're called Egyptian, they're from Babylonia. And this was the standard set of bounds used by the Hellenistic astrologers in the beginning, where these, what are now called Egyptian, but are really Babylonian.
我们只是喜欢通过称呼别人完全不是他们的东西来混淆他们。我想我们正在逐渐发现更多的历史。有一篇论文，我记得是由琼斯和另一个作者写的，他们的名字我不太记得了。论文中提到，他们发现了一些来自希腊化时期的泥板或纸莎草纸星象图，这些星象图研究了界限。虽然这些界限被称为“埃及的”，但实际上来源于巴比伦。这是希腊化占星师最初使用的标准界限集，现在被称为“埃及的”，但实际上真的是巴比伦的。
And so the idea, as I understand it, is that the planets each rule the signs, but in addition to signs, the planets rule little regions around the entire zodiac, the visible planets, not the sun and the moon, the non-luminary planets. So if you're a wealthy billionaire now, you probably have a house in Spain and France and Italy and wherever, United States and Japan and China. And these would be your bounds. You might own a certain area, like, I guess if you were the president of a nation, you'd be the head of that nation. Or maybe you could think of it like embassies around the world. Each nation has its own territory, but it has embassies in most other countries. And those embassies are considered essentially the property of the nation. Yeah, they're technically sovereign, right? Right. So the bounds are like embassies of the planet.
根据我的理解，这个观点是这样的：行星不仅主宰各个星座，还掌控着整个黄道带上的一些小区域。这里指的是可见的行星，而不是太阳和月亮这些发光体行星。打个比方，如果你现在是一位富有的亿万富翁，你可能会在西班牙、法国、意大利以及其他地方，比如美国、日本和中国拥有房产，这些房产就好比是你的领地。而如果你是一国总统，你就是该国的首脑。或者你可以把它想象成遍布全球的使馆，每个国家有自己的领土，但在大多数其他国家都有使馆，而这些使馆被认为是那个国家的领土。没错，它们在技术上是主权国家的一部分，对吧？对的。所以这些小区域就像是行星的“使馆”。
Embassies are not all the same size. So the United States probably has a big embassy in Spain, and maybe Cuba has a tiny one. But you wouldn't expect the bounds to be the same size or the embassies to be exactly the same space. And so in each sign, the bounds that belong to a particular planet may be different. And so the idea is, if you're in another sign that doesn't belong to you, you may be in the bound or term of a planet in that sign that does belong to that planet. And so if you're traveling through that region, the ruler of that region is a planet distinct from, usually, the ruler of the sign. And so it has a major impact. Yeah, the Hellenistic conception of the chart as really like property or land or a place, and then understanding these as distinct regions of sovereignty.
大使馆的大小各不相同。因此，美国在西班牙可能有一个很大的大使馆，而古巴的可能很小。但你不会期望它们的界限大小相同，或者大使馆占用的空间完全一致。因此，在每一个星座中，属于特定行星的界限可能会有所不同。意思是，如果你位于一个不属于你的星座，你可能位于该星座中属于另一颗行星的界限或区域里。在这个区域旅行时，该区域的主宰者通常与星座的主宰者不同，会产生重大影响。这就像希腊化时期的人把星盘看作是财产、土地或地方，并理解这些作为独立的主权区域。
Property where I was in charge in that area. You know, if I had a problem in France and I went to the American embassy, I would count on the American. Maybe I wouldn't any more of these. Yeah, exactly. To help me out. Yeah, no, I think that that's such a great analogy also, because it really draws a connection to how the bounds do have this very, like, association with territory and land. And it's an administrative function they have. They take care of matters in the region that they cover. Great, thank you. That's such a diversion, but I thought we should at least get into it a little bit. And I think it was actually really helpful to understand what you're saying, Nadia, about the primary word as the ruler of the bounds, specifically.
我在那个地区负责的物业。你知道，如果我在法国遇到问题并去了美国大使馆，我会依靠美国人来帮助我。或许现在我不会再这样做了。不，我认为这真的是一个很好的类比，因为它确实体现了界限与领土和土地之间的联系。这是一种行政职能，他们负责处理他们所覆盖区域内的事务。非常感谢。这话题有点偏离，但我觉得至少应该稍微讨论一下。而且我认为这对于理解你所说的关于"界限的统治者"这个词的主要意义真的很有帮助，娜迪亚。
Yeah. But even in this diagram, the arrow, the first one is in the bound of Mars. So even though that's in Scorpio, though. So let's go to that. Kind of a jubbling, but yeah. The second one, the bound of Jupiter, but you're in, is that Libra or? Libra. Yeah. So the overall ruler here is Venus, but you're in the bound of Libra, of Jupiter. So if you have a problem, the one in charge who is going to administer what's going on for you is Jupiter. Also imagine it sort of like the distribution traveling through these different bounds, like actually like traveling through these different territories, like these very different lands with very different realities. You know, there's a sort of like physicality to that, that I think ties in really closely with the reality of different time lord periods and different bound lords ruling different moments of the life.
好的。但即使在这个图表中，第一个箭头也在火星的界限内，即使它在天蝎座里。所以我们来看看这个。有点混乱，不过没关系。第二个箭头在木星的界限内，但你所在的是天秤座吗？是的，天秤座。所以这里的总体掌管者是金星，但你是在木星的天秤座界限内。如果你遇到问题，负责处理的人是木星。也可以把它想象成分布在不同界限之间穿行，就像在不同的领土间旅行，这些领土有非常不同的现实。你知道，这也有一种实体性，我觉得这与不同时间领主时期和不同界限掌管者在不同人生时刻的统治密切相关。
I love that. It's not abstract. It's really, you can think about how would you feel if you're in this different territory within that country or within that continent or whatever. So thank you. The bounds of Mars are very different than the bounds of Venus. This is really the last piece of the puzzle that's important to know for putting this technique into action. And that's knowing where to start from, choosing the releaser. And obviously that's a really important step because it's going to determine everything that follows. And the Greek word for releaser was the afeta, which means the starting point. And there's a sort of sense of like the releasing of something, like the releasing of a horse into a race.
我很喜欢这一点。它并不抽象。你可以真正地设想一下，如果你身处这个国家的不同区域，或者在那个大陆上，你会有什么样的感受。所以谢谢你。火星的界限与金星的界限截然不同。这确实是了解这项技术并付诸实践的最后一块重要拼图。这就是知道从哪里开始，选择一个启动点。显然，这一步非常重要，因为它将决定接下来的所有事情。希腊语中，启动点被称为"afeta"，意思是起点，就像释放马匹去比赛一样，有一种开始行动的感觉。
It's where the circumambulations begin. And in Hellenistic astrology, there were generally five different possible candidates that were considered as releaser. Especially when this technique was used to determine length of life and longevity, which is sort of like the kind of earliest use cases that we have evidence of. Circumambulations is used to determine length of life and longevity. And then the releaser is also called the heilig, just to pile more vocabulary. There's a lot of vocabulary with this technique. So the sun, the moon, the ascendant were almost always considered the top candidates for the role of releaser. And then part of fortune and prenatal illumination also sometimes are considered as possible candidates.
这是圆周行运动开始的地方。在希腊化时期的占星术中，通常有五种不同的候选因素被认为可能作为“发起者”。特别是在这个技术用来确定寿命和长寿时，这是我们有证据证明的最早期的应用。圆周行运动用来判断寿命和长寿。发起者也被称为“heilig”，这给这项技术增加了更多的术语。太阳、月亮和上升星座几乎总是被认为是“发起者”角色的主要候选者，有时也会考虑命运点和产前照明作为可能的候选者。
And there's like a very long selection criteria that differs from astrologer to astrologer. And it could really honestly be its own topic of conversation probably. But I'll just say for the purposes of today's conversation that the ascendant is the most common by far in the examples that we have of the point that is used as releaser. And it also seems to be the case that even when another point or luminary would qualify as releaser, that the ascendant is still able to provide a very clear sort of narrative for the life of the individual. So for today's purposes with Andrea Bocelli, we'll be using the ascendant as the releaser.
不同的占星师对于选择标准有自己独特且繁琐的方式，这个话题其实可以单独展开讨论。不过，今天我们只简单说一句：在已有的实例中，上升星座是最常用的释放点。而且，即使有其他点或光源也可以作为释放点，上升星座仍然能提供一个清晰的个人生命叙述。所以，在今天关于Andrea Bocelli的讨论中，我们将使用上升星座作为释放点。
And then the final thing to just introduce is that another approach to the releaser that Ptolemy, I think, was one of the first astrologers to introduce was this idea that actually we could release from multiple points depending on the topic of inquiry that we were interested in. And so we might release from the moon if we wanted to know about marriage, we might release from the sun for career, ascendant for health and body.
最后要介绍的一点是，托勒密可能是最早引入这个方法的占星家之一，他提出了一个新的思路，即我们可以根据所关心的问题，从多个起点开始推演。例如，如果想了解婚姻问题，可以从月亮推演；如果关心事业，可以从太阳推演；而如果是健康和身体状况，则可以从上升星座开始推演。
So that's like one of the many ways that Ptolemy's approach was a little bit more unique in how he approached circumambulations. And he was highly influential and a lot of his ideas then became kind of foundational for the very related technique of primary directions. So with that connection in mind, I'll kind of pass it over to Anthony to talk us through primary directions.
所以，这就像是托勒密在处理绕行时比较独特的方法之一。他的影响力非常大，他的很多观点后来成为了一种非常相关的技术——主限法（Primary Directions）的基础。考虑到这种联系，我将把话题交给安东尼，让他为我们详细讲解主限法。
Can I just ask one quick? So for people who are then going to check this themselves, they're watching the video and like, I want to go check out my periods and circumambulations. They can just use the ascendant and get good results for now. If they're not going into the criteria of choosing the apheda, the ascendant does give us useful information.
我可以问一个简单的问题吗？那么，对于那些想要自己核对的人来说，他们在观看视频时可能会想去检查自己的周期和行运。此时，他们可以直接使用上升星座来获得不错的结果。如果他们不深入研究选择“apheda（指的是一种占星术中的技术或术语）”的标准，上升星座确实能给我们提供有用的信息。
Such a great point for anyone that is just wanting to begin exploring the technique, I would definitely recommend starting with the ascendant. It's very complicated to begin assessing candidates other than the ascendant for releaser. And then also the calculation of those other points also requires specific software and becomes its own conversation. So, yes, release from the ascendant to begin with. I would agree with that. The ascendant is a general releaser always used, I think, by almost every astrologer. And it is the horoscopos, the hour marker.
对于那些刚开始探索这一技巧的人来说，这是个很好的建议。我绝对推荐从上升星座（命宫）开始。相比之下，分析其他候选点作为“释放者”是非常复杂的过程。而且，计算其他点需要专门的软件，并且是另外一个话题。因此，是的，从上升星座开始释放。我同意这种做法。上升星座是一个通用的释放点，我认为几乎每个占星师都会使用。它就是所谓的“星盘的时间标记”。
So it is the most important point in the natal chart. For those who do have software, a lot of software these days will give you the option to figure out the releaser or the highlight for you. So I think Solar Fire does that and Janus does that. And probably others do too. I think in Solar Fire, it's the horary module. Janus, it's traditional chart module. They'll also give you their thinking, like, we call this the releaser because, and we'll give you all the points they consider.
所以这是出生星盘中最重要的点。对于那些有软件的人来说，现在很多软件都可以帮你找出这个“释放点”或“重点”。我觉得 Solar Fire 和 Janus 都有这个功能，可能其他一些软件也有。在 Solar Fire 中，这个功能是在占星模块里；在 Janus 中，是在传统星盘模块里。它们还会告诉你它们的思路，比如说，为什么我们称这个为“释放点”，并列出它们考虑的所有因素。
The problem is every author has a different method. So Ptolemy will say one thing, but Nadia will say another. And if you're following a different author, they'll do it differently. Okay. So let's move on. I'm probably going to repeat a lot of what Nadia went over. But as she said, this idea of aphysis is core to both circumambulation and primary direction.
问题在于每位作者都有不同的方法。因此，托勒密会这样说，但纳迪娅会说另一种说法。如果你跟随的是不同的作者，他们也会有不同的方法。好的，我们继续。我很可能会重复很多纳迪娅讲过的内容。不过正如她所说，“发散”这个概念是环行和主导方向两者的核心。
In Greek, called aphysis. In Arabic, atasir. In Latin, direxio, which is where our direction comes from. And in English, we call them directions or primary directions. As Nadia said, they're rooted in the rotation of the celestial sphere, the sky, around the earth after birth, which is called primary motion. Comparing two points in the sky and imagining as the sky turns after birth, one of those points will rotate to where it aligns with the other point.
在希腊语中，这叫做 aphysis。在阿拉伯语中，称为 atasir。在拉丁语中称为 direxio，我们英语中的“direction”（方向）就是从这里来的。在英语中，我们称它们为“directions”或“primary directions”（初级方向）。正如纳迪娅所说，这些概念的根源在于出生后天体围绕地球旋转，这被称为主运动。比较天空中的两点，并想象出生后天空旋转，这两点中的一个将旋转到与另一个点对齐的位置。
And so there'll be an arc, an angular arc of direction between the two points. And the measure of that arc, then, is converted to time. I think this is a major area where circumambulation and directions differ, is in the calculation. How do you measure the arc between, say, two planets or a planet and an angle? And once you do measure that arc, how do you convert it to time? Those are really, I think, technicalities.
因此，在这两点之间会有一个弧线，一个具有方向性的角弧。这个弧线的度量值随后会被转换为时间。我认为这是环绕和方向之间的主要区别所在，尤其是在计算方法上。比如，如何测量两个行星之间或行星与某个角度之间的弧度？而一旦你测量出这个弧度，又如何将其转换为时间？我认为这些确实是技术细节。
They're not essential differences. The method is the same. The idea is the same. How you measure it is different. The simpler method is, I think, the earlier one before Ptolemy, is to use the sentiental times or rising times of the signs, simply to see how fast something is rising from one point to another, and then convert that arc, which is measured really in time, rising time, to years of life.
这不是本质上的差异。方法是相同的，概念也是一致的，只是测量方式不一样。我认为更简单的方法是使用托勒密之前的那种方法，即使用星座的升起时间或感知时间的方法。简单来说，就是观察某个东西从一个点到另一个点升起的速度，然后把这个弧度（实际上是用时间来测量的，即升起时间）换算成年龄。
Certainly, Valens in the first century, Paul was the fourth, yeah. So we're talking of several centuries of doing it with rising times. Ptolemy came along in the second century and said, well, wait a minute. Rising times only work if something's rising to the ascendant. That's what it means. It means rising to the ascendant. What if it's going to the midheaven or the descent of the IC or an intermediate point?
当然，瓦伦斯是在第一世纪，而保罗是第四个。是的。所以我们在谈论的是几个世纪以来与上升时间有关的话题。托勒密在第二世纪出现并提出了疑问，他说，上升时间只有在某物上升至本命盘的上升点时才有效。这就是它的含义：上升到上升点。那么如果某物上升到中天，下降到天底，或者达到一个中间点呢？
We can't measure in rising times because the planets aren't rising there. So Ptolemy came up with this idea that for the ascendant, we use rising times. For the midheaven, we use equatorial degrees of right ascension. And for points or planets intermediate between those two angles, we use proportional semi-arc, proportional distances of point or planet from both the horizon and the ascendant. And Ptolemy's method then became the standard which was followed into the medieval period and became the dominant method in the medieval period.
我们无法在上升时间进行测量，因为行星在那时并未上升。因此，托勒密提出了一个想法：对于上升点，我们使用上升时间；对于天顶，则使用赤道的赤经度数。而对于上升点和天顶之间的点或行星，我们使用与半弧相称比例的计算，具体来说，就是行星或点距离地平线和上升点的比例距离。托勒密的方法在中世纪时期成为了标准，并且在整个中世纪都占据主导地位。
And by intermediate positions? In other words, planets, say they're below the horizon, will rise to the horizon in a certain amount of time. That's called the ascensional time. How long does it take the planet to ascend to the horizon? Planets will continue to move toward the midheaven, but they're no longer rising to the horizon. It's culmination time, we would call it. So it takes a certain amount of time for a planet between the horizon and the midheaven to culminate. And that's the culminating time, and that's measured in right ascension.
“中间位置”是什么意思呢？简单来说，比如行星位于地平线以下，那么它们需要在一定时间内升到地平线上，这段时间叫做“升起时间”。那么，行星需要多久才能升到地平线上呢？随后，行星会继续移动朝向天顶，但不再是在升上地平线。这个过程我们称为“到达中天时间”。行星从地平线到达中天需要一段特定的时间，这段时间被称为“中天时间”，通常用赤经来测量。
It's technical to explain why it's called right ascension, but it's a different measure. Or to say it differently, suppose you have a sign of the zodiac in the northern hemisphere and say it's Pisces or Aries, which tend to rise very quickly. So they may take a little more than an hour to rise from the beginning to end. If they're approaching the midheaven, they're probably going to take longer to get to the midheaven, to pass over the midheaven than it took them to pass over the ascendant. And so the culmination time will be longer than the rising time.
这段话解释了为什么称为“赤经”，这个名词虽然有点技术性，但它指的是一种不同的测量方式。换句话说，假如在北半球有一个黄道星座，比如双鱼座或白羊座，它们通常升起得很快。它们可能会在一个多小时内从地平线升起到完全抬升。但如果它们接近天顶，那么从它们开始到达天顶的时间可能比在地平线上升起的时间更长。因此，其到达天顶的时间会比升起的时间要长。
And what Ptolemy was objecting to was that in the circumambulation calculation, you were acting as if the rising time applied everywhere around the zodiac. You know, if it takes an hour and 20 minutes to cross for one sign to cross over the ascendant, it doesn't take an hour and 20 minutes for that same sign to cross over every cusp or the other angles. His argument was, how can you use that time at other points in the zodiac? So he came up with his method.
托勒密反对的观点是，在计算星座经过地平线时，你假设星座上升的时间在整个黄道带上都是一样的。比如，如果一个星座从上升点经过需要一个小时二十分钟，那么同一个星座跨越其他黄道带交点并不需要同样的时间。他的论点是，怎么能把这个时间用在黄道带的其他位置呢？因此，他提出了自己的一套方法。
So just like build on that, Anthony, of just like the complications and the complexity of these calculations, which completely dovetail into the history of math at this point as well and spherical trigonometry. But like, if you are using a point not on either angle as the releaser, for example, the sun, and let's say the sun is in the 11th house, and you want to know when Venus is going to be brought to the point where the sun was at birth in the 11th house, you're presented with another challenge as well, which is that both of these bodies, the sun and Venus, are on different paths.
那么，就像安东尼所说的那样，这些计算的复杂性确实使得问题变得更加复杂，这和数学的发展历史以及球面三角学也密切相关。例如，如果你使用一个不在任意角上的点作为基准点，例如太阳，并且假设太阳位于第十一宫，你想知道什么时候金星会移动到太阳在第十一宫上的出生点。这时你就面临另一个挑战，因为太阳和金星处于不同的运行轨道上。
So they will never truly intersect in the sky. And you're faced with another challenge of how, where do you consider that meeting point to be? Right. That's why I said aligned. Yeah. And so that's where Polanyi's like semi-arc method was revolutionary. And that's what connects the two points that don't actually meet on the exact same point of the sky. That answers my question. So thank you.
所以它们在天空中永远不会真正相交。你还面临另一个挑战，就是如何以及在哪里认为它们相遇的点。对，这就是为什么我说它们是对齐的。这也是波拉尼的半弧法为什么如此具有革命性的方法。它连接了天上两个实际上并没有在同一点相遇的点。这样就回答了我的问题，谢谢你。
Yeah. About the intermediate position. Yeah. I mean, Anthony, you're probably able to clearly explain the math of this, but you're looking at the proportional distance that both of them will travel on their own semi-arcs. An analogy I like to use is, suppose we have two people on a bicycle trip. You have a fancy electronic bike, motorized bike, and we're going to do a 20-mile trip, and we want to meet halfway to have lunch.
好的，关于中间位置的问题。安东尼，你可能更清楚地讲解这个数学过程，但是其实你只需要看他们各自在各自半弧中要旅行的比例距离。我喜欢用一个比喻来说明：假设有两个人去骑自行车旅行，你有一辆高级电动自行车，要骑程20英里，然后我们打算在中途碰面一起吃午餐。
Well, you're going to get to the halfway point a lot faster than I am. Say it takes you two hours to get there, and it takes me three hours to get there. When I have traveled three hours, I will be at the same point that you're at when you've traveled two hours. And so we will be connected and we'll be able to have lunch together. I like that metaphor. Kind of cruel to leave you without the motorized bike and we're dead. Okay, thank you. She can go faster, so she's going to get to the halfway point faster.
好吧，你会比我更快地到达中途。假设你需要两个小时就能到达，而我需要三个小时。当我花了三个小时后，我会到达你在两个小时后到达的地方。这样我们就能碰面一起吃午饭。我喜欢这个比喻。不过，让你没有电动自行车就像是个残酷的玩笑，而我们就完蛋了。好的，谢谢。她骑得更快，所以她会更快到达中途。
But I'm going to get to the same halfway point in a longer time. For us to have lunch, we have to plan our travel accordingly. Thank you for explaining a little bit more of the intricacies of this, because I knew I was opening a can of worms by asking, but I didn't actually understand that point. Okay, so how did this originate? This is a question I don't have an answer for.
但我会花更长时间到达同一半途点。为了能够一起吃午饭，我们必须相应地规划旅行的时间。感谢你多解释了一些细节，因为我知道我问这个问题是在自找麻烦，但实际上我没理解那个点。那么，这件事情是如何起源的呢？这个问题我没有答案。
Horoscopic astrology using the Ascendant, as we said earlier, probably was initiated by a group of astrologers in Egypt, probably Alexandria, Egypt, in that region, who were absorbing the astrology Alexander wrote back from Persia, Babylonian and Chaldean astrology, and combining it with Egyptian religion, mythology, and Greek science and philosophy. So astrology is really an amalgamation of all these different intellectual disciplines and came up with this idea of the horoscope, the ascendant being the essential point in the chart, examining the chart from.
占星学中的星座占卜，使用上升星座这一概念，这很可能是由一群埃及的占星家们发起的，可能是在亚历山大港。他们吸收了从波斯传回来的占星学知识，以及巴比伦和迦勒底的占星术，并将其与埃及的宗教、神话和希腊的科学与哲学相结合。因此，占星学实际上是这些不同的学科的融合，形成了关于星座图的概念，上升星座被认为是图中最重要的点，从这个点出发来分析整张星图。
And then Ptolemy sums up this early idea, which Ganston kind of implies that these ideas originate from these mythological or legendary priests, kings in Egypt, the Chepso and Petasiris, who are founders of Hellenistic and later horoscopic astrology. Ptolemy says, well, the first thing to do with a chart of a person is to estimate how long this person will live. That's the key thing, because there's no point in forecasting marriage or career if the person's chart says they're not going to make it past age 10. And so you begin there. And so very early on, Hellenistic astrologers were trying to figure out or had a method to estimate how long the native would live. And it consisted of finding a point or planet in the chart that represented the giving of life, the fostering of life, and another point that indicated the ending or destruction of life.
托勒密总结了这个早期的观点。Ganston暗示这些观点来源于埃及的神话或传说中的祭司和国王，如Chepso和Petasiris，他们是希腊化时期以及后来的占星术的创始者。托勒密认为，研究一个人的星盘时，首先要做的就是估算这个人能活多久。这是关键，因为如果星盘显示这个人活不过10岁，那么预测婚姻或职业就没有意义了。因此，你要从这里开始。很早的时候，希腊化时期的占星家就尝试找出或已经有了一种方法来估算命主的寿命。这种方法包括在星盘中找到代表生命给予和生命促进的点或行星，以及另一个表示生命结束或毁灭的点。
And then they would let the chart rotate around the earth or the sky rotate around the earth and look for an arc between the giver of life, the starting point and the end of life. And then they would convert that arc into years. So the universal starting point is the ascendant, because that's where you come into the world. And then an ending point might be Mars or Saturn or a hard angle from Mars or Saturn or some other malefic point ended life. And you'd measure the angle between the two. And you say it's 50 degrees. And Ptolemy said, well, it's 50 degrees of right ascension. We'll call that 50 years. And this person is not likely to live much more than 50 years.
然后，他们会让星图围绕地球旋转，或者让天空围绕地球旋转，寻找生命的起点、中点和终点之间的弧度。接着，他们把这个弧度转换成年份。宇宙的起点就是上升点，因为那是你来到这个世界的地方。生命的终点可能是火星、土星，或者是来自火星或土星的一个困难角度，或者是其他不吉利点。你需要测量这两者之间的角度。如果是50度，托勒密会说，那就是50度的赤经。我们称这为50年，并假设这个人不太可能活过50岁。
So it's OK to predict marriage and career. And that's the basic method. And then this method, as far as I can tell, it's an example I included, became the basis on which circumambulation was added and primary direction was added. So here in my third point, I think I wrote this. Estimate the native's length of life, longevity based on the arc between a starter, sometimes called predominator, releaser, highly giver of life. Imagine to rotate around the zodiac in the hours after birth until it encounters a destroyer, sometimes called the Anarita or taker of life. I completely agree with everything, like the importance of what you're emphasizing with just that we don't exactly know where this technique originated.
因此，预测婚姻和事业是可以接受的，这是基本的方法。据我所知，我提供的例子表明，这种方法后来发展并加入了周行法和主要方向法。在我的第三点中，我写道：根据从起点（有时被称为主导者、释放者或生命给予者）到达生命终结者（有时称为Anarita或生命夺取者）的星体运动弧度来估算命主的寿命。我完全同意你所强调的重要性，不过我们还不完全清楚这种技术的起源。
And I think it's Porphyry also that attributed this technique to Nechepso and Pistoceros. So just so interesting that our earliest sources all kind of describe variations of this technique. And it may be like one of the earliest Hellenistic techniques that we have. I know the Balbillus example that you're going to come to is like one of our earliest sources. This is just for reference, and Balbillus was an astrologer in the first century. His father was an astrologer, his father, yeah, Thrasilus. But they had access to native birth charts from the previous century, the B.C. charts.
我认为，这是坡尔斐在将这项技术归功于奈凯普索和皮斯托塞罗斯。很有趣的是，我们最早的资料都描述了这种技术的各种变体。这可能是我们掌握的最早的希腊化技术之一。我知道你接下来要谈到的那个巴尔比勒斯的例子，如同我们最早的来源之一。仅供参考，巴尔比勒斯是公元一世纪的一位占星师，他的父亲也是一位占星师，是塔拉西勒斯。但他们可以接触到前一个世纪的出生星图，也就是公元前的星图。
And Balbillus, and the chart we're going to look at very quickly, is somebody born in the year 43 B.C.E. What Balbillus does is he says, "Let's figure out how long this guy's going to live." And he actually titles his paper, "The Method Concerning the Length of Life from Starter to Destroyer." So he's not talking about terms, primary directions. He says, "Let's find a starter. Let's find a destroyer. Let's see how many degrees are between them, and then we'll know when he's going to die." So Balbillus' father was Thrasilus, who was a court astrologer to Tiberius in Rome.
巴比鲁斯和我们将要快速查看的图表中的人物是公元前43年出生的。巴比鲁斯的做法是说：“让我们来算一下这个人会活多久。” 他实际上给他的论文起了个标题，叫做“从起始到终结的生命长度方法研究。” 所以他不是在谈论术语或主导方向。他说：“让我们找到一个起始点，再找到一个终结者。看看它们之间有多少度数，这样我们就能知道他什么时候会去世。” 巴比鲁斯的父亲是色拉苏斯，他是罗马皇帝提比略的宫廷占星师。
And then Balbillus was likely born in Alexandria in Egypt, and also was a court astrologer for many Roman emperors. Claudius, he went on a campaign to Britain with Claudius, but he also was appointed as the high priest of the Temple of Hermes in Alexandria, and the director of the Library of Alexandria. So this was a very well-connected astrologer that would have had access to so many different manuscripts. And so it's just interesting to keep in mind.
巴尔毕勒斯可能出生在埃及的亚历山大城，他曾是多位罗马皇帝的宫廷占星师。他与克劳狄乌斯一起参加了远征不列颠的活动，但他还被任命为亚历山大城赫尔墨斯神庙的大祭司和亚历山大图书馆的馆长。因此，这是一位具有广泛人脉的占星师，他能够接触到各种各样的手稿。这一点值得我们关注和思考。
I think, if I recall correctly, reading this paper, Balbillus, showing that there was not a uniform astrology in that period, he comments on the part of fortune. And he says, basically what Ptolemy does, "We're not going to do it the way those common astrologers do it, because they don't know what they're doing. We're just going to use the daytime formula. The other is nonsense." Oh wait, Balbillus does that? I'm pretty sure. I'd have to go back and read the paper.
我记得，读过这篇论文，Balbillus 证明当时的占星术并不统一。他评论了"命运点"这个概念。他说，托勒密的基本观点是：“我们不会像那些普通占星师那样做，因为他们不懂。他们只会用白天的计算公式，其他的都是胡扯。”哦，等等，这是不是 Balbillus 说的？我几乎可以确定。不过，我得再去读一遍论文确认一下。
So Balbillus is in the "Don't Reverse" camp. Right. He says there's two traditions for calculating the part of fortune. So the sun sign astrologers who reverse, and there's the real astrologers who don't. Fascinating. That's a paraphrase. I didn't say it that way. But it was interesting to me. That caught my eye, because we think of astrology developing in this sort of uniform fashion, but there were disagreements. Yeah, not everybody was a core astrologer. We have people who are consulting astrologers, like Valens, who's a consulting astrologer, who's out interacting with the populace and, you know, has a kind of messier attitude in some ways because of that, I think.
所以，巴尔比鲁斯属于“不要反转”阵营。对的。他说，用于计算“命运点”的有两种传统方法。有些是把顺逆颠倒的太阳星座占星师，也有不这么做的“真正的占星师”。很有趣。这是个意译，我不是这么说的。但是这引起了我的注意，因为我们通常认为占星术是以一种统一的方式发展的，但其实内部也有分歧。并不是每个人都是核心占星师。我们有一些咨询型的占星师，比如瓦伦斯，他是一位面向大众提供咨询的占星师，由于他的这个身份，让他的态度在某些方面显得更加复杂。
Here's what Nadia was just saying. They're citing the Greek horoscopes. They got this chart from Balbillus, his article, "The Method About Length of Life from Starter to Destroyer." And they studied two early horoscopes from the century before Christ. Balbillus known as the astrology of Nero and his father Thrasilus. And this is the chart we're going to look at. This is their version. If you read the original, the Neugebauer, they really didn't understand astrology. So they're just sort of literally translating Greek to English. And there's a lot of mistakes. And it's clear from reading what they wrote, they don't know what they're doing.
这是娜迪娅刚刚提到的内容。他们在引用希腊的星座图，并从巴尔比鲁斯的文章《从起点到终结的生命长度方法》中得到了这张图表。他们研究了两个公元前的早期星座图。巴尔比鲁斯被认为是尼禄及其父亲特拉西卢斯的占星家。这就是我们将要看的图表，这是他们的版本。如果你读过原版，即诺伊格鲍尔的作品，就会发现他们其实不太懂占星学。他们只是字面上把希腊文翻译成英文，里面有很多错误。通过阅读他们的作品，很明显他们并不知道自己在做什么。
This is my recreation of this 43 BCE chart. Balbillus is saying the sun is the starter. So they're not using the ascendant. They're using the sun, which makes a lot of sense. The sun is in the first house near the ascendant, the giver of life. Makes perfect sense. Balbillus decides that the square aspect of the 12th house moon is the destroyer or taker of life. He argues, Balbillus says, well, it really can't be Saturn or Mars because they're above the sun already. So the sun's not going to come up and join the sun. And Venus is here. And Balbillus has them in slightly different positions, probably just observationally.
这是我对公元前43年这张星盘的重现。巴比鲁斯说太阳是起始点。所以他们没有使用上升星座，而是使用太阳，这很有道理。太阳位于第一宫，靠近上升点，是生命的给予者。这非常合理。巴比鲁斯认为，第十二宫月亮的四分相是生命的摧毁者或夺取者。他解释说，这不可能是土星或火星，因为它们已经在太阳上方。因此，太阳不会升起加入太阳。金星也在这里，而巴比鲁斯将它们放在略微不同的位置，可能只是因为观测原因。
So Balbillus concludes, we need to find a chart that's going to kill this person, a point that's going to kill this person. The moon is not in a good place. It's in the 12th house, which is an inimical house. And he decides the square of the moon, which would be down here at 16 Pisces in the second house. Eventually, as the sky rotates around the earth, will come up and join the sun. And he calculates the angle between the sun and the square. So here's the square of the moon. This is the arc he's looking at.
因此，巴比卢斯得出结论，我们需要寻找一张能够“杀死”这个人的星盘，一个能够“杀死”这个人的点。月亮的位置不太好，它位于第十二宫，这是一个不利的宫位。他决定关注月亮的刑相角，这个点将在第二宫的双鱼座16度。当天空围绕地球旋转时，这个点最终会上升并与太阳相合。于是，他计算了太阳和这个刑相角之间的角度。这个就是他正在寻找的月亮的刑相角。
When does the sun square moon primary direction perfect? It perfects in the year 16 of the first century common era when he's 57 years old. So this guy's going to make it to about 57. Just to show his technique, he finds a planet that can destroy or whose aspect can destroy. And then he looks at the direction, or he doesn't call it circling relation. He just wants to know when will destructive point here, the little red arrow at 16 of Pisces, as the sky rotates, when will it rise and reach the sun?
太阳刑月亮的基本方向何时完成？它在公元纪年的第一个世纪的第16年完成，那时他57岁。所以这个人会活到大约57岁。为了展示他的技术，他寻找一个可能带来破坏的行星或其相位。然后他观察方向，或者说他不称其为循环关系。他只是想知道，当天空旋转时，位于双鱼座16度的小红箭头所代表的这个破坏性点何时会上升并到达太阳。
And it takes about 57 degrees, so about 57 years. I believe he did it based on oblique ascension. Right, so he's using rising times. But since the sun is pretty much exactly on the ascendant, that would still be an accurate way of calculating that distance. I'll just say, this is such a great example to pull and look at, because it's like the earliest example that we have of this technique, whether we want to call it circumambulations or primary direction. He doesn't mention the terms or bounds.
这段话大意是：大约需要57度，也就是大约57年。我相信他是根据斜升度来进行计算的。对，他使用的是星体升起的时间。但由于太阳几乎正好在上升点，这仍然是计算这个距离的一种准确方法。我想说，这是一个非常好的例子，可以拿来研究，因为这可能是我们拥有的最早的这一技术实例，无论我们称之为游行还是主要方向。他没有提到术语或界限。
Just straight, let's find this angle. He's using rising times, and it will take the square of the moon. Yeah. A certain amount of time to rise to the sun. That's around age 57 that perfects. But it is so unique in that, like, kind of a hybrid, you could argue, between these two techniques. And he also has these sort of unique aspects of his example that I don't think we find in a lot of other examples. Like, for one thing, I feel like this is one of the very few, I can't honestly think of another example where the sun is being used as a releaser.
直截了当地说，我们来找这个角度。他使用上升时间，并将月球的平方纳入考虑。对，大概要一定时间升至太阳。这在57岁时达到完美。但它如此独特，像是一种混合技术，可以说是在两种方法之间。他的例子还有其他一些独特之处，这是在许多其他例子中找不到的。比如，我觉得这可能是很少数例子之一，我真想不出其他例子，在这里太阳被用作释放器。
Like, so often Hellenistic astrologers go through this very lengthy explanation of all of the possible candidates, but they always then are like, I'll choose the ascendant. And even here, where it is the sun, the sun is right on the ascendant. And part of me wondering, were these astrologers just being lazy because they didn't want to do the elaborate calculation? So they were like, let's. No, I think. Let me choose the chart, yeah. I'm imagining that the sun is, especially in Egypt, where the sun is a god, right?
通常，希腊化时代的占星家会详细解释所有可能的因素，但最后他们总是选择上升星座。即使在这里，太阳也是在上升星座附近。让我想知道，这些占星家是不是有点偷懒，因为不想做复杂的计算，所以就直接选择了这个。其实，我在想，在埃及，太阳本身就是一个神，他们或许更倾向于选择太阳。
The sun on the ascendant, I mean, how could you give it to anything other than the sun? And it's convenient that you would get a similar calculation if you chose the ascendant in this one example too. And what about the moon as the killing point? Is that common? It's the square of the moon. Yeah, the square of the moon being the killing point, is that common? I was surprised by that personally. He's probably thinking, and I don't think he says this, the moon is in the 12th house. It's a bad position for the moon and it's conjunct Saturn and Mars. So it's really afflicted. It's also highly balsamic. It's almost a new moon. So it's a very negative. Yeah, it's probably not even visible. It's lost all its light at this point.
太阳在上升位，我的意思是，怎么能把这个位置给其他东西，而不是太阳呢？而且很巧的是，如果选择这一个例子中的上升位，你也会得到类似的结果。那么，月亮作为凶点呢？这常见吗？是的，月亮的四分位被认为是凶点，这常见吗？我个人对此感到惊讶。他大概在想，我不认为他说过这一点，月亮位于第十二宫。月亮在这个位置不太好，并且与土星和火星相合，所以真的受到影响。此外，月亮正在逐渐亏缺，几乎是新月了。因此，这是非常消极的状态。是的，可能连看都看不到，此刻月亮已经失去了全部光辉。
Yeah, there's nothing else that I see that would be a better point. I just was a little surprised that it was the moon. I mean, other than like Mars, but then you would predict instant death at birth, essentially, because it's. I think not his points, Will. The sun is almost directly on the ascendant. Again, this is my recreation, not. It's a little different from Val Billis' chart. And the moon is essentially devoid of any light at this point. So it's devoid of any light in the 12th house near Saturn and Mars. Its next aspects will be to Saturn and Mars before it gets to the sun. So it's in bad shape.
好的，我认为没有更好的选择，只是有点惊讶竟然是月亮。我是说，除了火星，但那样的话就几乎等于预测出生即死亡了，我想这不是他的观点，威尔。太阳几乎直接位于上升点。不过这只是我的推测，和 Val Billis 的星图有些不同。此时月亮几乎没有光亮，在第十二宫靠近土星和火星的位置。它接下来的相位会先到土星和火星，然后才到太阳。所以它的处境不太好。
Yeah. I do think, Joey, to your point, you know, Val Billis is also unique. There's so many unique things about this example. In that, you know, he. Not all sources say that the moon can be a destroyer. And I think he also says at some point within this or his other chart example, that the sun can be a destroyer if you're specifically releasing from the ascendants. Or maybe if you're releasing from the moon, then the sun can be a destroyer. So having the luminaries as destroyers is sort of interesting.
是的，Joey，我确实同意你的观点。Val Billis 的案例也很特别。在这个例子中，有很多独特之处。比如，并不是所有的资料都说月亮可以是一个破坏者。我记得他在这个或其他的例子中也提到过，如果是从上升点释放，太阳也可能是一个破坏者。或者如果是从月亮释放，太阳可能是一个破坏者。因此，把太阳和月亮这两个光体视为破坏者是相当有趣的。
I don't know if you were going to talk about this, Anthony, but about the other example with Saturn as the releaser. I just wanted to show this quickly as a very early example of how the idea was applied. And I think this predates circumambulation and primary direction. It's that they grew out of this technique and added to this technique and then elaborated from it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a really fascinating theory.
我不确定你是否准备谈论这个，Anthony，但关于另一个以土星为释义者的例子。我只是想快速展示一下这个作为该理论应用的一个早期实例。我认为这早于循环导航和主导方向。这些概念是从这个技巧中发展出来的，并在此基础上进行补充和阐述。嗯，是的。这是一个非常有趣的理论。
Yeah. It's so cool that this could be the kind of seed of both techniques that kind of unites them in some way. Because Bocelli has Saturn very closely aspecting his ascendant, I was looking for another historical example. And I remembered that Goethe had Saturn right on having just risen above the ascendant. And he says in his autobiography, I was born at midday with the stroke of 12. I came into the world, blah, blah, blah. And he must have consulted an astrologer or done his own chart because he describes his chart.
是啊，这真是太酷了，这种技术的种子能以某种方式将它们结合在一起。由于波切利的土星紧密地影响着他的上升星座，我开始寻找另一个历史上的例子。我想起歌德的土星正好刚刚升过上升星座。在他的自传中，他说道，我在中午12点出生，在这时我来到这个世界，等等等等。他一定是咨询过占星师或者自己看过星盘，因为他描述了他的星盘。
And he interprets Saturn having just risen. He says in many good aspects, but for me, through the unskillfulness of the midwife, I came into the world as if dead. So they must say he was stillborn. And only through many efforts did they manage to bring me to see the light. And he attributes this historical fact to Saturn being right on the ascendant or just above it. And I thought that was interesting in terms of Bocelli, who has Saturn very closely aspecting his ascendant at birth and coming into the world essentially without vision.
他解释说土星刚刚升起时，我出生了。他说有很多好的相位，但由于接生婆技术不佳，我出生时仿佛死去。因此，人们可能会说我是死胎。经过许多努力，他们才设法让我看到光明。他把这个历史事实归因于土星位于上升点或刚好在上升点之上。我认为这与博切利很有趣，因为他出生时，土星与他的上升星座非常接近，导致他天生失明。
One other thing to add to this, Anthony, I know this is just a quick example, but I just happened to look at Goethe's circumambulations. And with his delineation of that Saturn on his ascendant at birth being incredibly problematic, I looked and the square of Saturn arrived at his ascendant in 1832, which is the year he died. Wow, so interesting. So like it almost got him twice, Saturn, essentially.
还有一点要补充，安东尼，我知道这只是一个简单的例子，但我碰巧查看了歌德的星象图。他在出生时土星位于上升星座，这带来了极大的挑战。我注意到1832年土星的刑相再次与他的上升星座相遇，那一年正好是他去世的年份。哇，真有趣，也就是说，土星几乎「两次」影响了他。
Yeah. Or almost got him once and did get him the second time. And that's very similar to the Bilbilis chart, where the square of the moon gets to the ascendant and the sun. We don't know when he died, actually. I don't think he states that. But I put this in simply because of the similarity of Saturn affecting the ascendant at birth. In my view, having reviewed these charts, I think that things started with this idea that to interpret a chart, you have to determine or estimate the length of life.
是的。或者说，差一点就抓住他了，但第二次确实抓住了他。这和Bilbilis图很像，在那个图里，月亮的方位与上升点和太阳相接。我们实际上不知道他什么时候去世的，我认为他没有说明这一点。但我提到这个是因为土星在出生时影响上升点的相似性。在我看来，在审阅这些图表之后，我认为最初的想法是，要解释一个星图，你必须先确定或估算寿命的长度。
And that limits what you're able to say about the chart. And to do that, you find, let's use a simple term, a starter and a finisher. And you see how they are related. Is there an arc between them? You measure that arc and you estimate length of life from it. And there's various ways to estimate and to determine what the arcs are. In circumambulation, I think there's a strong emphasis on time lords and periods of life as described by the bounds or terms within each sign.
这限制了你能够对图表说些什么。为了做到这一点，你需要找到一个简单的术语，一个开始者和一个结束者，看看它们之间的关系。它们之间是否有一个弧线？你通过测量这条弧线来估算生命的长度。有多种方法可以估算和确定这些弧线。在围绕移动中，我认为非常强调时间主宰和由每个星座内的界限或术语描述的人生阶段。
And I think what happened is that for some reason, after the Hellenistic period, this idea of time lords faded as it got to the modern world. And so, especially in Western astrology, we almost dropped time lords entirely. I think there was a lot of connection or interaction between India and the Hellenistic Greek Egyptian astrologers. And so, the idea of dashas and time lords used to define periods of life and make predictions became a predominant feature of Indian astrology, which came directly from their interactions with the Hellenistic astrologers. But for some reason, not entirely, because the medieval Arabic and Persian astrologers certainly had time lord systems. And I guess it continued into Western through the use of perfections. But it wasn't regarded as predominant as it was in Hellenistic astrology or Indian astrology.
我认为，在希腊化时期之后，由于某种原因，时间领主（Time Lords）的概念在传入现代世界时逐渐消退了。因此，尤其是在西方占星术中，我们几乎完全放弃了时间领主的概念。我认为印度和希腊化时期的希腊和埃及的占星家之间有大量的交流与互动。因此，用来定义生命时期和进行预测的dasha和时间领主的概念成为了印度占星术的主要特征，这直接源于他们与希腊化占星家的互动。但不知为何，这个概念并没有完全消失，因为中世纪的阿拉伯和波斯占星家肯定是有时间领主体系的。它通过运用流年法继续在西方流传下来，但在西方占星术中，它并不像在希腊化或印度占星术中那样重要。
I feel like the use of time lords with circumambulations is a really big difference. In contrast, that primary directions is sort of like looking at just like a single significator and promisor. It's more focused on bringing the planets to each other, although fixed stars are obviously used as well. And I feel like also circumambulations is more focused than on that continuity, on sort of the path of the distribution throughout the life and that sort of like narrative arc, as opposed to just like singular moments. That primary directions are more focused on predicting. These are sort of big generalizations, but I feel like that is a kind of distinction between the two of them.
我觉得使用时间领主和旋转周期的方式有很大的不同。相比之下，主要方向就像是只关注一个重要的标志者和承诺者。主要方向更注重把行星彼此联系起来，但显然也使用恒星。而我感觉旋转周期更注重生活中的连续性，更像是生命分布路径的整体叙述，而不是仅仅关注某些单一的时刻。主要方向则更专注于预测。这些当然是比较大的概括，但我觉得这两者之间的区别大致就是这样。
And then I would also say primary directions also is looking at direct directions and moving with primary motion, but also will use converse directions. There's like a broader range of promisors that could be used. Well, I think as the technique evolved, it became more and more expansive, yeah. And perhaps the way that we could still think of them as two techniques that could be used together is that primary directions really is not working with the bounds at all. And so it does add something that is not present in primary directions to keep considering the bounds as time lords and abusing primary directions. Or would you find it too contradictory to use both techniques? What do you two think?
然后我还想说，"主导方向"这个技术不仅关注直接方向和主要运动，还使用逆向方向。这个方法可以使用更广泛的承诺者。随着技术的发展，它变得越来越广泛。我们可以把它们看作可以一起使用的两种技术，因为"主导方向"实际上并没有涉及"界限"。因此，通过将"界限"视为时间的主导者并结合"主导方向"，我们可以增加一些新的东西。不过，您会不会觉得使用这两种技术太矛盾了呢？你们两个怎么看？
Well, Martin Ganson, for instance, combines the two. I was just trying to think of the use of bounds. I'd really have to go back and research it to see how much, because they really weren't used in isolation. Lilly, for instance, uses the bounds all the time with primary directions. Marinus does not, because he doesn't believe in the bounds. At all. But Lilly always looks at what term or bound the directed planet is affecting or affected by. It was a standard in the 17th century to use it.
例如，马丁·甘森就结合了这两者。我在想关于界限的使用。我真的需要回去研究一下，看看它到底被用了多少，因为界限并不是单独使用的。比如，莉莉在主要方向上总是使用界限。而马里努斯则不用，因为他根本不相信界限。但莉莉总是查看被定向的行星在影响或受到哪个界限的影响。在17世纪，使用界限是一种常见的做法。
Can I ask one more clarifying question? Because, you know, I practice circumambulations, but I don't practice with primary directions. And based on what Nadia just said, is it true that the influence is really at the moment of their meeting? It does not then continue for the entire time until that point meets another planet or something like that. It really marks a single event rather than a durational span. Is that correct? It's not a single event. No. No. It is more of a duration that is activated for. Right. I mean, Marinus in the 17th century talks about this, that if you have a primary direction, he feels it will span a period of years, that it's most potent when it's at the exact perfection point.
我能再问一个澄清的问题吗？因为你知道，我练习绕行漫步（circumambulations），但我没有用主要方向来练习。基于Nadia刚才所说的，是不是只有在它们相遇的那一刻才有影响？这并不意味着影响会持续到那个点遇到另一个星球或类似情况。它只是标志着一个单一的事件，而不是一个持续的时间段。是这样吗？其实并不是一个单一的事件。它更像是一个激活的持续时间。17世纪的马里努斯（Marinus）谈到，如果有一个主要方向，他认为它的影响会持续数年，并在达到精确完美点时最为强大。
It remains in effect, he says, until it hits another promoter. Uh-huh. And he also then distinguishes, he says, well, toward the end of the medieval period and early renaissance, astrologers became really concerned about the latitude of the planets. And so they became aware that for every planet, there are two primary directions that can perfect. There's the zodiacal position of the planet on the ecliptic without the latitude of the planet. And then the, but the planet really is in space somewhere above or below the ecliptic.
他说，这仍然有效，直到遇到另一个推动者。他接着区分说，在中世纪晚期和文艺复兴初期，星座学家开始特别关注行星的纬度问题。因此，他们意识到每颗行星都有两种主要的运动方向可以完美，一种是没有考虑行星纬度时，行星在黄道上的位置，另一种是行星实际上在太空中位于黄道上下方的某处。
And so the body of the planet will perfect a direction, usually often in a different year or two, sometimes more than the projection of the planet onto the ecliptic. So that whole period between the direction without latitude on the ecliptic and the direction in space with the body of the planet is under the influence of that planet's direction. That can be a two, three-year period, or for a planet like Pluto, it could be five, ten years, a long period where you'd have this direction in effect in the sky, not yet perfected, but influencing all matters. So it's sort of like going through a bound.
所以，行星的位置会随着时间推移获得一个特定的方向，通常是在一年或两年后的某个年份，有时可能会比该行星在黄道上的投影更久。因此，从行星在黄道上没有纬度的方向到空间中拥有完整行星位置的方向，这整段时间都会受到该行星方向的影响。这样的影响可能持续两到三年，对于像冥王星这样的行星，甚至可能持续五到十年。在这段漫长的时间里，虽然该行星的方向还未完全到达，但它已经在影响着所有事务。这有点像经过一个界限的过程。
There really are longer periods of, I mean, you could call them time lords, you know, producerships, but yes. Well, I think they do act like time lords more than. Yeah, it sounds a lot like it. So cool. Thank you for clarifying those pieces as well. Yeah, no, that was a great point, Anthony. And it just really like leads me back to sort of what we were chatting about before we started, which is that, like, the more in the weeds you get with these techniques, the more a case to be made, like, they are the same technique. There's such a gray area between where one begins and the other one ends. With primary directions, authors note when a planet, a directed planet changes sign as being quite significant. I think they're just the same technique work differently.
这段话的意思是：确实存在较长的时期，你可以称它们为时间领主或者制作过程。是的，我觉得它们的确更像是时间领主。听起来是这样的，真酷。谢谢你澄清这些细节。是的，安东尼提到了一个很好的观点，这让我回想到我们在开始前的讨论。随着你越来越深入这些技术细节，会越来越觉得这些技术基本上是一样的。它们之间有很多重叠之处。对于主要方位的变化，作者指出当一个导向的行星改变星座时是非常重要的。我认为它们只是方法不同，但实质相同。
Martin Ganston, who's our current guru, always looks at the bounds. And William Lilly, if you look at how he always notes when a directed planet enters the bound of another planet. Yeah, and so maybe we'll see a little bit of how the two are practiced differently and feed into each other when we look at this case study and we'll play out a little of what we're talking about. So this is Andrea's birth chart. I think this is from Astrodienst. The time of this chart, I always try to research as far as I can the birth time because you can't trust often what you see online. The 5.15 a.m. is from his birth certificate, but there's a note that in the family, they have a baby book for it. The family wrote, he came into the world at 5.10 a.m. I don't know in Italy, in some countries, they'll record birth time to the nearest quarter hour, whether that's the case.
马丁·甘斯顿是我们目前的专家，他总是关注界限。而威廉·莉莉也总是在记录当一个运行的行星进入另一个行星的界限时提到这点。是的，当我们研究这个案例分析时，我们也许会看到两者如何以不同方式运用并相互影响。因此，这是安德烈亚的出生图表。我想这是来自Astrodienst网站的图。我总是尽力去核实出生时间，因为网上的信息往往不可靠。图表上标注的是清晨5:15，这个时间来自他的出生证明，但家里有一本宝宝记事本，上面写着他是在早上5:10出生。我不确定在意大利，或者在其他一些国家，他们会不会把出生时间记录成最接近的整刻钟，不知道这是不是一个例子。
Clocks may be different in the hospital than, I know in my own birth certificate, the hospital recorded I was born at 9.09. My father made a note, I was born at 9.05. So we have two witnesses at my birth who wrote down my birth time four minutes apart. So my guess is the family note is more accurate, that probably he's born closer to 5.10 than 5.15. And that can make a difference of a whole degree on the angles. But it's probably close enough. We have two confirmations that he's born somewhat after five in the morning. I underline the Saturn here. Saturn's at 1946, Sag, and his ascendant's at 18.11. So there's a square here that's within an orb of less than two degrees. And so here's his Saturn. It's an angular Saturn, so it's potent, squaring his, it's just under his ascendant, the square. That's why I thought of Goethe, that must be powerful.
在医院，时钟可能会有所不同。在我的出生证明上，医院记录我是在9:09出生的，而我父亲的记录则是9:05。所以，在我出生时，有两个记录显示我的出生时间相差四分钟。我猜家庭记录更准确一点，可能我更接近5:10出生，而不是5:15。这样的差别会影响角度的计算，但大致时间应该是够用了。有两个证据表明我是在凌晨五点多一点出生的。我这里强调一下土星的位置。土星的坐标是射手座19度46分，而上升星座是18度11分，所以这里有一个不到两度的四分相。土星在这个位置上很有影响力，因为它几乎与上升星座呈直角，因此我想到歌德，这样的位置一定很强大。
And it's also conjunct his Venus and Mercury on the eastern horizon. And then I thought, well, does this Saturn square the ascendant? He was born with, I guess, severe glaucoma or vision difficulty. I think the story was his mother was advised that he would have serious difficulties and considered an abortion, but decided against it. So there was a chance he wouldn't have been born at all. In medical astrology, the sun for a male is the right eye, and the moon is the left eye. And it's the reverse if you switch genders. And the second house represents the right eye, as does its ruler and planets in the second. And he has a Libra second cusp, so Venus rules it. And Venus is getting that square from Saturn. So the 12th house, the left eye, its ruler, and aspects to the ruler.
他的金星和水星在东地平线上相合。然后我想，这个土星是否与上升点相刑？他出生时有严重的青光眼或视力困难。据说他的母亲曾被医生告知他会有严重的问题，并考虑过流产，但最后决定生下他。这就是说，他有可能未能出生。在医学占星中，太阳代表男性的右眼，月亮代表左眼，而对于女性则相反。第二宫代表右眼，以及第二宫的主星和在其中的行星。他的第二宫在天秤座，因此金星是主星。金星正受到土星的刑克。第十二宫则代表左眼，包括其主星及与主星的相位。
So can you go back to the chart for a minute? Let's see how this plays out. A good chunk of Mercury is in the 12th house. The sun, I guess, is the cusp ruler. And so that kind of fits. And planets in the house also represent the eyes. So he has pretty severe afflictions to the signifier of his eyes. And he's born with a severe visual problem. Born September 22nd of 58, official time 515. Family record, say, 510. So we're pretty confident he's born in this time period. Sight was impaired from birth due to congenital glaucoma. His mother decided not to have an abortion against the doctor's advice. In a way, that's sort of like Goethe, who his family thought he was stillborn, but they managed to resuscitate him.
你能回到图表吗？让我们看看接下来会怎么样。水星的大部分位于第十二宫。太阳是宫尖的主宰星，所以这样解释挺合理。宫中的星体也代表着眼睛。所以，他的眼睛的标志受到了相当严重的影响。他出生时就有严重的视力问题。他在1958年9月22日出生，官方时间是5点15分，家族记录是5点10分，所以我们很有信心他就在这个时间段出生。他一出生就因为先天性青光眼导致视力受损。他的母亲决定不听从医生建议，没有选择堕胎。在某种程度上，这有点像歌德。他的家人曾以为他死产，但他们设法让他活了过来。
By age, he had a great passion for music as a boy. He has Venus on the Ascendant. That probably has something to do with it. By age 7, he could recognize famous voices. He tried to emulate them. At age 12, he lost his vision being hit in the right eye with a soccer ball. So right eye is Venus and the second house. First marriage in June of 1992, age 33, which was also a key year for his career. He was hit in the right eye with a football at age 12. He's born in September, so age 12, the sun, his right eye is in the first house, which is the body and the head. He was playing soccer with some friends and the ball hit him. And then he went completely blind, a very terrible accident. Dexter Square of Saturn lies in the first house at 19 Virgo 46, 8 degrees 53 minutes away from the sun.
从年幼时，他对音乐便充满了热情。他的上升星座有金星，这可能与此有关。在7岁时，他就能辨认出著名歌手的声音，并试图模仿他们。12岁那年，他因为被足球击中右眼而失明。因此，右眼与金星和第二宫相关。他的第一次婚姻发生在1992年6月，那年他33岁，也是他事业的关键一年。他出生在九月，所以在12岁时，太阳星座（象征他的右眼）位于第一宫，代表身体和头部。他当时正在和朋友们踢足球，结果球击中了他的右眼，导致完全失明，这是一个非常可怕的意外事故。在处女座19度46分，土星位于第一宫，与太阳相差8度53分。
And so we'd want to calculate the primary direction of the sun to the square of Saturn. The sky carries the square of Saturn, which in the software I was using, I think I called the square of Saturn custom point one and put in its coordinates. And I use the latitude of Saturn. So I'm using the actual body of the planet, not the point on the ecliptic. And I'm using Janus here. And so I did both Placidus and Regiomontanus, sun to the square of Saturn, 12 degrees and a few minutes. And the Placidus is December of 1970. Regiomontanus is January, so essentially the same period. So sometime in late 1970, early 71, we would be worried about a significant Saturnian event, the sun, which is his right eye. He was hit in the right eye, by the way. Yeah, really wild example, just right off the bat. Freak thing that he would, that a soccer ball would have such a huge impact. Because I think he had the brain hemorrhage.
我们想要计算太阳与土星成直角的主要方向。在我使用的软件中，我将土星的直角称为“土星自定义点一”，并输入了其坐标。我使用的是土星的纬度，也就是说我是在使用这颗行星的实体位置，而不是黄道上的某个点。我用的是Janus软件，然后对比了Placidus和Regiomontanus两种方法，计算太阳和土星直角，相隔12度多一点。在Placidus的计算中，这发生在1970年的12月，而Regiomontanus显示的是1971年1月，基本上是同一时间段。所以在1970年末到1971年初，我们应该注意一个重要的土星事件。顺便提一下，土星代表他的右眼，而他确实被打中了右眼。这是个非常惊人的例子，因为一个足球竟可以对他造成如此大的影响。据我所知，他当时发生了脑出血。
Yeah, he already had the condition. Yeah. Did he get some bleeding in his skull? I've read about the accident. I can't remember the details. I think so, yeah. It wasn't simply hit in the eye that it caused some bleeding internally in the skull and that affected the eye, the vision. Well, and it does kind of echo in certain ways, the way we know. So it's like the birth chart is the blueprint, and then it gets acted out and activated with the timing. And we sort of see that literalized in this instance. So the next square of Saturn lies in the first house at 19 Virgo, 853 away from the sun. And so this is interesting because even though on the ecliptic, it's 853, when you time how long it takes for the square of Saturn to rise there, it's really closer to 12 degrees.
是的，他已经有这个病症。是的。他的颅内有出血吗？我读过有关事故的报道，但记不清细节。我想是的，是这样的。并不是单纯被击中眼睛导致颅内出血，进而影响了眼睛和视力。这种情况在某些方面确实有点相似，就像我们知道的方式一样。就像出生图是一个蓝图，然后依据时间的推移被触发和展现。我们在这个例子中看到了这种现象的具体表现。下一个土星的四分相落在处女座的第一个宫位，与太阳相距19度，夹角为8度53分。因此，这很有趣，因为即使在黄道上是8度53分，但当你计算土星四分相在那里升起所需的时间时，它实际上更接近于12度。
The primary motion of the sky, I did it for the 510 chart, what the family says he was born. And same calculation, again, almost exactly 12 degrees, a little earlier now. The Placidus method puts it in November, which to me makes more sense than late December, because you're more likely outdoors playing soccer in November than in the middle of winter. If we were rectifying the chart, this chart looks pretty well rectified already. The 510 looks a little more favorable. So I thought, let's use another event. And again, you have to use many events to rectify. So let's look at his marriage. He married on the 27th of June of 92 at age 33.76. I calculated that. We'd use Venus as a natural symbol of marriage. And it's also exalted in the seventh cusp. So it's a good choice of a signifier.
天空的主要运动，我已经为510图表进行了推算，根据家人的说法，这一天是他的生日。同样的计算方法，结果几乎精确到了12度，不过现在稍微往前了一点。Placidus方法把他的生日放到了11月，这对我来说比12月底更合理，因为11月份更有可能在户外踢足球，而不是在寒冬中。如果我们打算校正这个图表，其实它已经修正得相当准确。510的结果稍微更有利一些。所以我想，不妨用另一个事件来验证。需要用多个事件来进行修正。我们看看他的婚姻。他在92年的6月27日结婚，那时候他33岁零大约9个月。我计算了一下。我们可以用金星作为婚姻的自然象征。它在第七宫头上也处于巅峰地位，因此作为指示符是个不错的选择。
He's born with Venus just above the horizon. At age 30, almost 34, primary motion will carry Venus. Each quadrant is roughly 90 years of life. And so each house is roughly 30 years of life so that when he's in his 30s, you'd expect Venus to have gotten into the latter part of his 11th house, eyeballing it. Probably around mid-Leo. Here's Uranus at 14 Leo toward the end of the 11th house. You'd expect Venus to be up here somewhere. If Venus is here somewhere near Uranus, it's probably close to the middle of Leo. And we notice the mid-heaven is at the middle of Gemini. So there's probably a sextal primary direction forming around this age. And that would make sense because that would symbolize marriage, change in public status related to Venus, and a favorable period for career.
他出生时，金星刚好在地平线上方。到了30岁，接近34岁时，金星将会通过原动力运转进入他的星盘的不同宫位。每个象限的生命大约是90年，所以每个宫位大约代表30年的人生。因此，当他30多岁时，可以预计金星会进入他第11宫的后半部分，根据简单观察，大概在狮子座中间。天王星在狮子座14度接近第11宫的尾部，因此可以预计金星也会在附近。如果金星靠近天王星，那么它可能接近狮子座的中间。我们注意到中天位于双子座的中部，所以在这个年龄段可能形成一个六分相的原始方向。这是有意义的，因为这可能象征着婚姻、与金星相关的公众地位的变化，以及职业发展的有利时期。
And it turns out he gets married around this age. And in 1992, I looked up his biography. An Italian rock star discovered him, heard him sing, I guess recorded him. And Pavarotti heard him and thought, this guy's got talent. So that's what would be the sextal mid-heaven of your singer. Yeah, it's one of the best things you could hope for, I think, in his position, probably, right? So he gets married, and Luciano Pavarotti calls him up and says, I liked your recording. Have you thought about becoming a professional musician?
他大概是在这个年龄结婚的。1992年，我查阅了他的传记，一位意大利摇滚明星发现了他，听到他唱歌，并为他录了音。帕瓦罗蒂听了之后，觉得这家伙有才华。所以，这就是你的歌手相当于成功的“中天合相”。在他的情况下，这可能是你能希望发生的最好的事情之一，对吧？于是，他结婚了，卢奇亚诺·帕瓦罗蒂给他打电话说，我很喜欢你的录音，你有没有考虑过成为一名职业音乐家？
Now, I measured then the right ascension of the mid-heaven, which is just the equatorial degree of the mid-heaven. When he's born, it's almost 73 degrees along the equator, measured from zero Aries. Now, in solar fire, they have a nice animation feature. You can advance the chart. So I animated the chart starting at 5.15 a.m. until the sextal of the planet Venus got to 15.52 of Leo. So it's exactly sextal, the mid-heaven. Is that clear? Here's Venus 30 years later, somewhere here toward the end of the 11th house. I animated the chart until Venus was at 15, Leo, 52, which is the same degree as the mid-heaven, but a different sign.
现在，我测量了中天的赤经，这就是中天的赤道度数。当他出生时，中天大约在赤道上的73度，这是从白羊座0度开始测量的。在 "Solar Fire" 软件中，有一个很好的动画功能，你可以推进星盘。我从早上5点15分开始动画星盘，直到金星与中天形成60度相位，金星到了狮子座15度52分的位置。所以这是与中天正好60度的相位。明白了吗？这时的金星位置是在30年后，接近第11宫的末尾。我动画星盘直到金星在狮子座15度52分的位置，这与中天是相同的度数，但属于不同的星座。
And so Venus is exactly sextal in the zodiac without latitude. That happened at 7.31 in the morning. He's born at 5.15. So the chart had moved 2.27 hours or 136 minutes. And every four minutes approximately corresponds to one degree crossing the mid-heaven. So I divide 136 by 4. And we expect this sextal to perfect roughly when he's 34 years old. That's a rough estimate. I did it down here, but I don't want to get into details. If I do it with the Nibod calculation, this comes out to age 34.67 years. How old did we say he was? 34.7. A little younger than that, right? Yeah. 33, I think. Oh, 33, yeah. Just under 34 years. But very close, but just slightly off. I suspected this 5.15 was the hospital following some rule and that the 5.10 would be more accurate. And actually, when I did it, 5.12 came out almost exactly. And that's right between the two birth times we have for him. So it's a repeating thing.
因此，金星在没有纬度的情况下正好在黄道上形成六分相。这发生在早上7点31分。而他在5点15分出生。所以星盘已经移动了2小时27分钟，也就是136分钟。大约每四分钟对应中天跨过一度。因此，我将136除以4。我们预计这个六分相大约在他34岁时形成，这是一个粗略的估算。我在这里进行了计算，但不想详细讨论。如果我使用Nibod计算方法，结果是34.67岁。我们之前说他几岁来着？34.7岁。对，比那个小一点，对吧？是的，33岁，我想。哦，33岁，对的，刚刚不到34岁。非常接近，但稍微有点不一致。我怀疑5点15分可能是医院遵循某个规则的结果，而5点10分可能更准确。实际上，当我重新计算后，得出5点12分几乎是完全准确的。这介于我们为他记录的两个出生时间之间。所以这是一种反复出现的情况。
He married in June. June, Venus symbolized the marriage. He was 33.76 years old, adjusting the time of birth to 5.12 in the morning. We quote, rectify the chart to 5.12 based on these two events, but we'd have to keep going. And I calculated it. Here's the sextal of Venus to the midheaven without latitude. So just on the zodiac circle, April of 92, if we account for the latitude of Venus, I think, which was pretty close to the ecliptic at that point, we get June 22nd of 92. He married June 27th. Exactly. So I think we have a pretty accurate birth chart. And did you go back and look at that with the Saturn event of the blinding with the soccer ball with the 5.12 time? Right, yeah. Yeah, that would kind of be our next step, I guess. The use of primary directions to rectify a chart is really helpful, but it doesn't mean it's all you can do with them. Yeah, it's not just life or death or timing.
他在六月结婚。六月，维纳斯象征婚姻。他的年龄是33.76岁，将出生时间调整为凌晨5点12分。我们引用并根据这两个事件校正星盘到5点12分，但我们还需要继续研究。我进行了计算。这里是维纳斯与中天的六合相位，没有考虑纬度变化。仅仅在黄道圆上计算，如果考虑维纳斯的纬度——当时它非常接近黄道——结果是1992年4月，我们得到的是1992年6月22日。他在6月27日结婚。非常吻合。因此，我认为我们有一个相当准确的出生星盘。那么你有没有用5点12分时间回过头看看与土星相关的事件，比如被足球打到眼睛的事件？对，是的。这应该是我们的下一步。使用主导方向来校正星盘非常有帮助，但这并不是说你只能这样用它们。它不仅仅是生死或时机的问题。
Yeah, okay. So Nadia, you're going to show us the circumambulations? Sure. No, that was so great, though. Thank you so much, Anthony. Using kind of those same key turning points in life that you were focused on, I would just look at those same turning points through circumambulations to sort of compare the way that the two techniques work together. And I know you touched on a lot of this, Anthony, but just to sort of like underscore the point that nothing is ever going to happen when a time lord is activated that isn't promised in the natal chart. I just want to look really quickly at his natal chart in order to sort of understand some of these key, like his loss of eyesight and his sudden rise to fame and understand how those are promised in his natal chart.
好的，那么娜迪亚，你要给我们展示一下绕行仪式吗？当然。安东尼，你刚才说得很精彩，非常感谢你。你提到的那些生活中的关键转折点，我想通过绕行这些点来比较两种技术如何协作。我知道你已经谈到了很多这一方面的内容，但我想强调的是，当一个时间主宰被激活时，不会发生任何在本命盘中没有预示过的事情。我想快速浏览一下他的本命盘，以便理解一些关键事件，比如他视力的丧失和他突然的成名，以及这些事件如何在他的本命盘中得以体现。
And so we see in his natality, like you mentioned, Anthony, that he has the stellium in the first house, so very dynamically angular and strong. And Mercury, his chart ruler, is right there on the ascendant. Mercury is also in its own exaltation. So all of those planets are so well resourced. And Mercury rules his MC as well. Yeah. Yeah. So we know that, like, likely he's going to receive some sort of honors and exaltation and recognition in his career at some point. Also, I thought it was interesting. He has two royal fixed stars rising and culminating when he's born. He has Denebola on the ascendant and Rijal on the midheaven.
因此，如你提到的，安东尼，我们看到他的出生星图中，群星位于第一宫，显示出非常强大和活跃的角度。而水星，他的命盘主星，就在上升点上。水星还处于自己擢升的位置。因此，这些行星都具备了极佳的资质。此外，水星也掌管着他的中天宫位。所以，我们可以预计他在职业生涯的某个时候很可能会获得某种荣誉、提升和认可。我还觉得很有趣的是，他出生时有两颗皇室恒星正在升起并达到颠峰位置，分别是出现在上升点的狮子座尾巴星和在中天位置的猎户座的腿星。
And then there's this, like, beautiful grand trine happening between his sun and his moon and his part of fortune that's very close. So we see a lot of indicators that, you know, there is going to be success and eminence and public recognition at some point in his life. But then, as you touched on, also, he has these more troubling configurations. First of all, he has Mars in this overcoming square position to that entire stellium, which is not great. But still, like, you focused on, Anthony, like, Saturn is actually even more troubling because Saturn is casting a backward hurled ray, like, directly into the degrees of the ascendant and Mercury, the ascendant ruler, and Venus.
然后，有一个美丽的大三角形正在他的太阳、月亮和非常接近的幸运点之间发生。所以，我们看到很多迹象表明，他的人生中某个时候会获得成功、显赫地位和公众认可。然而，就像你提到的，他也有一些更令人不安的配置。首先，他的火星在与整个星群形成克角的位置，这不是一个好迹象。但正如你集中提到的，安东尼，更令人担忧的是土星，因为土星正将一个逆袭的光线直接投射到上升点的度数，以及作为上升主宰的水星和金星上。
And so this is actually, like, a condition of maltreatment. So even before we jump into his time lord periods, we see that, you know, he has this chart that is describing immense potential. But it's also indicating that at some point he's also going to have these serious challenges around his health and vitality. Yeah, and, of course, Saturn as the ruler of the sixth of illness and accidents being the planet that we've tied to this moment as well. And, like, Saturn, if we consider this a night chart, is the greater malefic, and, like, Mars and Saturn are opposing each other. So we would never say that the malefics are happy, probably, but these two are very much not happy.
这其实是一种虐待的状况。在我们深入探讨他的时光领主时期之前，我们可以看到，他的命盘显示出巨大的潜力。但这也意味着在某些时候，他可能会面临严峻的健康和活力挑战。当然，土星作为第六宫（疾病和事故宫）的主宰者，也与这个时刻相关。而且，如果我们把这个看作是夜间命盘，土星则是主要的凶星，并且火星和土星处于对立状态。因此我们从不会说凶星是快乐的，而这两者显然非常不快乐。
So there's a lot that is concerning. Moons square the nodes, which is often troubling and indicates health issues. Yeah, we're looking at, like, health indicators specifically being the things that are more malefic, endangering to him, rather than career, for example. Right. So now that we sort of have that kind of big picture about the themes that we might expect in his life, we can turn to circumambulations to get a sense of, like, when are these themes actually going to be activated? So the table on the right is his circumambulations releasing from the ascendant. And, like I mentioned, I really do treat these as sort of, like, a table of contents for the life that we can pretty quickly skim.
所以，这里有很多让人担忧的地方。月亮与命运节点成直角，这通常是不祥的预兆，表明健康问题。是的，我们主要关注健康指标，尤其是那些可能对他有害的因素，而不是事业方面。好的，现在我们对他生活中可能出现的主题有了一个整体的了解，我们可以通过流年法来判断这些主题何时会被激活。右边的表格是从上升星座开始计算的流年释放期。正如我之前提到的，我把这些视为生命的目录，可以快速浏览以了解大概情况。
So if we do that, we can see, like, pretty quickly that he has a really difficult cluster of malefic time lord periods during the early part of his life, from around two to age 23. And then later in his 30s and 40s, that shifts over into a malefic time lord period. We know that this, like, very closely mirrors sort of the trajectory of his life events. He had this very difficult childhood. The fact that he has this cluster of malefic time lords from age two to 23 suggests, like, it wasn't just an isolated instance of, you know, being blinded at the age of 12, but it was actually kind of a larger ongoing struggle that he dealt with.
如果我们这样做，我们可以很快看到，他在生命早期，即从大约2岁到23岁之间，经历了一段非常困难的凶星时段。而在他30多岁和40多岁时，这种情况又转变为另一个凶星时段。我们知道，这与他的人生轨迹非常接近。他有一个非常艰难的童年。2岁到23岁期间凶星的集中暗示，这不仅仅是他在12岁时失明的单一事件，而是说明他实际上正在经历一段更大范围的持续斗争。
And that's very much true in his life story. Like you said, Anthony was born with congenital glaucoma. And at a very early age, he had to undergo a lot of medical interventions to try to save his eyesight. I was able to find an interview with his brother who explained that by the age of three and a half, Bocelli had had 13 surgeries to try to save his eyesight. And his brother used the words, like, it was a torture, but obviously, like, a necessary torture to try to, you know, help his glaucoma.
他的生活故事中，这一点非常真实。就像你说的，安东尼天生患有先天性青光眼。在很小的时候，他就不得不接受许多医疗干预，以试图挽救视力。我找到了一篇对他兄弟的采访，他解释说，到他三岁半时，博切利已经经历了13次手术，试图挽救他的视力。他的兄弟用“折磨”这样的词来形容这一过程，但显然，这是为了帮助治疗他的青光眼而不得不经历的“必要的折磨”。
So when we look and try to understand the astrological timing from a circumambulation perspective, the age two is right when Saturn's square is activated as participating time lord. We saw in his natal chart how particularly concerning Saturn is because of that maltreatment. And actually, this exact sort of configuration is something that Dorotheus warns about in his explanation of circumambulations. He says, if you find an infortune casting its rays to the degree of the releaser. So if a malefic is casting its degrees, like, right into, I think of it as, like, the bounds that the releaser is in, then it's obviously harming it. And that harm will come to it at a time when the malefic governs the distribution of the rays.
当我们从绕行的角度来看和理解占星术的时机时，两岁正是土星刑相激活之时作为参与时间之主。我们在他的本命盘中看到了土星由于那种不良影响而特别令人担忧。实际上，Dorotheus在解释绕行时警告过这种确切的配置。他说，如果你发现一个凶星将其光线投射到释放者的度数上。那么，如果一个凶星的光线正好投射到我理解为释放者所在的界限中，就显然会对其造成伤害。而这种伤害会在凶星管理这些光线分配的时间到来时产生。
So that's, like, exactly what we see happening here. Distribution of the rays referring to the planet that is the cooperating lord and is being aspected, right? Yep, the participating time lord. So that's exactly, you know, Saturn is activated as participating time lord by that square ray. And this is, like, right around when, you know, all of these, like, very arduous, intense surgeries would have happened for Bocelli. If we look further into this period in his childhood, the pattern kind of intensifies even further when Saturn, again, is activated as time lord, this time as primary time lord.
所以，这正是我们在这里看到的。行星之间的光线分布指的是那个配合的主星，并且正被某个行星相位影响，对吧？是的，就是那个参与中的时间主星。所以这就是为什么土星被激活为参与中的时间主星，因为那个四分相的光线。这正是，差不多在那段时间里，波切利经历了许多艰难、复杂的手术。如果我们进一步研究他童年时期的这段时间，当土星再次被激活为时间主星，这次是作为主要时间主星，模式会进一步加剧。
Which is at age 12 and a half, about. And we know that this age of 12 is when Bocelli has the accident that results in the brain hemorrhage that creates his total loss of eyesight. So we're seeing this pattern again. Saturn is activated as time lord. And it is, like, resulting in these, like, very physical health crises for Bocelli. These handovers of primary time lords are always watched very closely in circumambulations. And especially in cases like this, where it's one malefic planet handing over to another, those are always concerning. And they always sort of suggest that this is going to be a difficult turning point for the individual that might form into some sort of crisis in their life.
这大约是发生在12岁半的时候。我们知道，在他12岁时，博切利发生了意外，导致了脑出血，最终完全失去了视力。我们又一次看到了这种模式：土星作为时间主宰被激活。这似乎导致博切利出现了非常严重的健康危机。在周行过程中，主要时间主宰的交接总是被非常密切地关注。特别是在这种情况下，一个不利的行星交接给另一个不利的行星，总是令人担忧。它们通常会暗示，这对于个人来说将是一个困难的转折点，可能会演变成生活中的某种危机。
Knowing, knowing, again, just like the natal condition and that both malefics are harming his ascendant, we would especially expect that. But now with Saturn as primary time lord, it has, like, full authority to harm the ascendant. This is exactly when the soccer accident takes place. I will also mention it's very rare for an event to take place, like, the actual day that you see listed on this column for circumambulating time lord changes. I always use a one-year orb on either side of that changeover. Like Anthony said, we don't know the exact date that this accident took place, but it was likely around six or eight months before this handover.
了解，了解，这就像天生的状态，再加上两大凶星影响着他的上升星座，我们尤其预期到这一点。但现在，主时间之神是土星，它有完全的权力去伤害上升星座。正是在这个时候，发生了这次足球事故。我还要提到的是，很少有事件会恰好在你看到的这个周期改变的当天发生。我通常在这个转变的前后各用一年作为范围。就像安东尼说的，我们不知道这次事故发生的确切日期，但很可能是在这个转变大约六到八个月之前。
So it's within that one-year orb. But if you were born 5'10", everything would have been earlier, too. Yeah. Right. I was thinking that, yeah. Right. So I like the one-year orb just because there are so many sort of variables that we can't know in terms of accuracy of timing as well. I will mention that kind of because of these wider orbs, it's always very helpful to pull in supporting timing techniques to confirm, like, with more precision.
这句话翻译成中文可以表达为：
所以，这在一年以内的范围内。但是如果你出生在5月10日，所有事情也都会提前。嗯，对。我也是这么想的。对，所以我喜欢一年的范围，因为在时间的准确性方面有很多我们无法知道的变量。我会提到，由于这种较宽的范围，总是很有帮助地使用其他时间技术来进行确认，以获得更精确的结果。
When an event or a shift may happen. And so I just pulled, you know, a quick look at his perfection for the age of 12 and his solar return for the age of 12. And, you know, we see that he's in a first house perfection year. Themes of body and vitality are instantly activated. And his lord of the year is Mercury. So Mercury is also in his first house. And really that entire stellium in his first house is activated.
活动或变化可能发生的时候。所以我快速查看了他12岁时的完美期和太阳回归期。我们看到他正处于一个第一宫完美年的阶段，身体和活力的话题被立刻激活。他这一年的守护星是水星，而水星也位于他的第一宫。实际上，他第一宫中的所有行星群都被激活了。
We can expect that also those themes of physical crises and challenges of these two malefics squaring the ascendant are going to be activated when he's 12. If we then switch over to looking at his solar return chart, which is on the outer wheel here, just looking at a high level, I won't go into very much detail. But if we look at his lord of the year in this year, Mercury, we see Mercury has returned to its natal position.
我们可以预期，当他12岁时，与上升星座相刑的这两颗凶星所带来的身体危机和挑战主题也会被激活。接着，我们来看他的太阳回归图，这里展示在外轮上。简单地说，我不会深入讲解细节。如果我们关注他这一年的主星——水星，我们会发现水星回到了它的本命位置。
So, again, you know, this is an indication that this is going to be a significant year for Bocelli. And we see that Mercury, both natally and solar return Mercury, are conjunct Mars. So this is then, like, very concerning in terms of suggesting that there is going to be some sort of difficult health crisis. On top of that, we know that, like, both Mercury's solar return and natal are being squared by natal Mars and Saturn.
因此，再次强调，这表明对博切利来说，这将是非常重要的一年。我们可以看到，无论是本命盘中的水星还是太阳回归盘中的水星，都与火星相合。因此，这引起了极大的关注，可能预示着会出现某种严重的健康危机。除此之外，我们知道，水星在太阳回归盘和本命盘中都受到本命盘中的火星和土星的刑克，这进一步加剧了这种担忧。
So it's this repetition upon repetition. And we have multiple Time Lord techniques that are all reinforcing this potential for crisis in this year. And Bocelli himself described that accident as, like, the worst moment of his life. We're alarmed by seeing the period through circumambulations and decide to go more deeply into it through one of the other Time Lord techniques.
所以，这是一遍又一遍的重复。有多种"时间领主"技术都在强化这一年可能出现危机的迹象。Bocelli本人将那次意外描述为他人生中最糟糕的时刻。我们通过环行观察这一时期，感到非常震惊，决定使用其他时间领主技术更深入地研究这个时期。
Yeah, totally. It's, like, we know there's the natal promise. So, like, everybody lives through Mars or Saturn Time Lord periods, and they're not necessarily always that intense. But we know there's that natal signature. We see that there's the circumambulating Time Lord changeover. But really, like, it might, in some cases, take years for that to fully manifest.
当然，没错。我们都知道有命盘中的承诺。比如，每个人都会经历火星或土星作为时间主导的时期，但这些时期不一定总是那么强烈。不过，我们知道命盘中有这些特征。我们也看到，随着时间的推移，时间主导会发生变化。但实际上，在某些情况下，这种变化可能需要多年才能完全显现出来。
But then the fact that it's underscored with perfections and solar returns, we feel more confident. Of course, Saturn on the part of fortune, opposed the part of fortune in the solar return. And we could keep going. I know, I know. There's, like, so much that could be said. Continue, continue. Like, the ascendant, the ascendant, the solar return ascendant is in the 12th house.
但是由于这一切都伴随着完美和太阳回归的标志，我们感到更加自信。当然，土星位于吉运点上，并在太阳回归中与吉运点相对。我们还能继续分析下去，我知道，我知道，还有很多可以讨论的。继续，继续。比如，上升星座，上升星座，太阳回归的上升星座位于第十二宫。
Yeah, there's so many things. But yes, yes. Yeah. Maybe that's good to not scare people who are going through a Saturn period, actually. So, great. Look how many things there actually are that are. No, thank you for saying that, because that really is, like, what I am trying to emphasize is, like, we have all lived through malefic Time Lord periods, and we're still here to talk about it.
是的，有很多事情。但对，对。没错。或许这样做真的是为了不吓到正在经历土星时期的人。所以，很好。看看实际上有多少这样的事情存在。谢谢你提到这一点，因为这确实是我想强调的：我们都经历过不太顺利的时间，但我们依然在这里谈论它。
And this is a very extreme example, and they're not always this extreme. We also know that the story didn't end here for Bocelli. We see now, if we, like, move forward, that he enters this benefic Time Lord period where Jupiter is his primary Time Lord at the age of 33. And this is, like, Anthony talked us through another, like, very significant, dramatic shift in his life.
这是一个非常极端的例子，但并不总是如此极端。我们也知道，故事并没有在这里结束。对于波切利来说，事情还有后续发展。现在，我们可以看到，如果我们向后看，他在33岁时进入了一个幸运的时间阶段，在这个阶段，木星是他的主要保护星。正如安东尼所讲述的，这标志着他人生中另一个非常显著、戏剧性的转折点。
I just want to give, like, a really fast piece of background that kind of leads into this. He was in a Mercury Time Lord period for about 10 years in his 20s. And he spent that period studying law at the University of Pisa, which I will just quickly say is such a perfect Mercury theme for a Mercury Time Lord period to study law.
我想快速地介绍一下背景，以便引入这个话题。在他二十多岁的时候，他经历了一个大约十年的水星主星时期。在这段时间里，他在比萨大学学习法律。我简单提一下，这段时间选择学习法律真是一个与水星主题非常契合的事情，因为水星主星时期与这样的学习活动很相符。
He got his law degree, began practicing law, but he never really gave up on this dream of becoming a singer. And so he was working in piano bars to support himself and to make money to afford voice lessons. And he was overall just encountered a lot of criticism from what I could understand during this period about holding on to this dream.
他获得了法律学位，开始从事律师工作，但他从未真正放弃成为歌手的梦想。因此，他在钢琴酒吧工作，以养活自己，并赚取足够的钱支付声乐课程。从我了解到的情况来看，在这个期间，他因为坚持这个梦想而遇到了很多批评。
But then, age 33, Jupiter becomes his primary Time Lord. And really, like, within a few months of that, he goes to this audition that Anthony mentioned to record a demo tape. He actually felt really pessimistic about it afterwards. He commented to his mom in the car ride home. I think that was a total waste of time.
然后在他33岁的时候，木星成为了他的主要时间主宰。真的，就在这之后几个月，他去参加了安东尼提到的那个试音，以录制一个示范带。事后他对这次经历感到非常悲观。在回家的车上，他对妈妈说，我觉得这完全是浪费时间。
But then, instead, this demo tape hands up in the hands of Pavarotti. Pavarotti begins to champion Bocelli. And he really launches into international fame within about a year of this. So these are, like, all of the kind of significations that we would hope and dream about having with a Jupiter Time Lord period. His Venus sextal in midheaven by primary direction at the same time.
不过，情况却是，这盘演示带辗转到了帕瓦罗蒂的手中。帕瓦罗蒂开始支持波切利。大约在一年内，波切利因此一举成名，走向国际舞台。这些正是我们希望和梦想在木星主宰时期能够发生的事情。同时，他的金星与中天形成了六分相。这些因素共同促成了他的成功。
Yeah. So much wind in his sails. And Jupiter's natural significations are super supportive here during this period. We can also see in his birth chart that Jupiter is angular from fortune in his natal chart. So we would expect that maybe he would benefit from some sort of unexpected chance event like the audition was. And Jupiter isn't harmed by Mars and Saturn like so many of the other planets are in his chart. So this is also a little bit more context for why this maybe was such a good period for him, as well as the Venus sextiling the Ascendant. There's many different factors happening.
好的。他的运势正顺风扬帆。在这一时期，木星的自然意义对他非常有利。从他的本命盘也可以看出，木星与命主星有良好交角。所以我们预期他或许会从一些意想不到的机会中受益，比如这次的试镜。而且，木星没有像图中许多其他行星那样受到火星和土星的不利影响。这是为什么这段时间对他而言可能如此有利的另一个原因，再加上金星与上升点成六分相。这期间有很多不同的因素在发挥作用。
Also, I would mention that especially in circumambulations, Jupiter as primary Time Lord can indicate marriage and the birth of children. And so as if his career developments weren't enough during this period, it was also this age 33 that he married his first wife. And during this Jupiter time period, they went on to have two children. So really, like, Mercury checked all the boxes during this period. Like, it was just an amazing period of his life.
同时，我要提到的是，尤其在命盘中，木星作为主要的时间主星可以暗示结婚和生育。因此，尽管这段时间他的事业发展已经相当突出，但在他33岁这一年，他还娶了他的第一任妻子。在这个木星主导的时期，他们还育有两个孩子。所以，这段时间里，简直就像水星一样，他所有的愿望都实现了。这实在是他人生中的一个精彩时期。
But I'm going to just end on one final detail from this Jupiter period that I think is a really important example as well. So after, like, maybe eight years of Jupiter as primary Time Lord, Saturn took over as participating Time Lord. And the medieval astrologer Abu Mishra delineates this combination of Jupiter-Saturn as indicating distress due to one's father, sadness, weeping, delays in projects, illness. So it's a really striking example of this, that about four months, I think, April 30th, 2000, four months after Saturn takes over as participating Time Lord, Bocelli's father died.
我想以一个关于木星时期的细节作为结尾，我认为这是一个非常重要的例子。在木星作为主要时间主宰了大约八年之后，土星作为参与时间主接管了。中世纪占星家阿布·米沙尔将木星和土星的结合解释为预示着因为父亲而感到的苦恼、悲伤、哭泣、项目的延迟以及疾病。这是一个非常显著的例子：在2000年4月30日，大约在土星作为参与时间主后的四个月，波切利的父亲去世了。
And he actually died the night before Bocelli was scheduled to perform at the Jubilee for Pope John Paul II. It was just, like, an incredibly intense experience where even though, you know, Jupiter is the primary Time Lord, Saturn is introducing this, like, gravity and grief into the situation. The other thing that is just interesting to point out is that we've seen this Jupiter-Saturn combination before in his life.
他实际上是在波切利计划为约翰·保罗二世教皇的禧年演出前一晚去世的。这真的是一种极其强烈的经历，因为虽然木星是主要的时间主宰，但土星却在这种情况下引入了一种沉重和悲伤。另一个有趣的地方是，我们以前在他的生活中也见过这种木星和土星的组合。
So he was also in a Jupiter-Saturn period from ages, from zero to two to three and a half would have been that same Jupiter-Saturn combination. So then it was activated by this harsh square, and we saw Saturn bring about these, like, very harsh physical bodily ordeals with those surgeries. And now Saturn is being activated by a more mild sextile aspect. While the death of his father would have been a profound sorrow and still very difficult, it's a very kind of different manifestation than that square manifestation was.
所以，他在生命的头几年，也就是从零岁到三岁半，正处于木星-土星时期。这段时期受到了一个严厉的四分相影响，土星带来了与手术有关的非常严酷的身体考验。而现在，土星受到了一个较为温和的六分相影响。虽然父亲的去世仍然带来了深刻的悲伤和巨大的困难，但与之前四分相带来的情况相比，这种影响的表现是非常不同的。
And Bocelli actually did end up performing at the Jubilee celebration because his mother insisted it's what his father would have wanted. But it's kind of impossible to even imagine the sort of physical control that that would have taken to almost literally swallow his grief and maintain that sort of physical composure of performing. So I just thought this was an important final point to share, which is that, like, these planetary combinations don't always produce the exact same outcome.
博切利确实在庆典上进行了表演，因为他的母亲坚持认为这是他父亲希望他做的事情。但要想象他几乎将悲伤吞下去，在表演中保持镇定的身体控制，是很难的。我只是觉得这是一个重要的观点要分享，那就是这样的星象组合不总是产生相同的结果。
But, you know, they're going to, like, depend on aspects and other sort of broader astrological context. Well, and one doesn't really cancel the other out. It's like, you know, we're often living these multiple storylines at once in our life that do or don't intersect with each other. So, yeah, it's such both rather than one more powerful than the other canceling the other out. So, yeah, what an uncanny example and to see it in Abu Mashar, so specifically these two planets in that order.
但是，你知道，他们会依赖于一些方面和其他更广泛的占星背景。嗯，一个并不会真的抵消另一个。就像，你知道的，我们的生活中经常存在多个故事线，它们可能会相交或者不会相交。所以，是的，这两者都是如此，而不是一个比另一个更强大所以抵消掉对方。于是，是的，多么奇妙的例子，而且在阿布·玛沙尔那里看到如此具体的顺序排列的这两颗行星。
Yeah. Yeah, no, I thought it was crazy. So I'll just end by sharing that Bocelli is currently in a Venus-Jupiter time lord period. I love this photo. I just have to say, very big fan of this photo of Bocelli on the horse. So this is him on a horse in. No, being a stupider. Like. Yeah. So he's well. Yes.
好的。对，我觉得这事挺疯狂的。最后我想分享一下，波切利目前正处于金星-木星的时间领主期。我非常喜欢这张照片，我必须说，我特别喜欢这张波切利骑马的照片。这就是他骑马的样子。嗯，不像个傻瓜。对，他很好。
Wow. It's so interesting to see kind of echoes of both techniques going through the same life and showing us different but complementary information. Yeah, I love the sort of complementary detail that, you know, Venus is supporting his career at the same time that Jupiter is supporting his career and also supporting his love life.
哇，看到这两种技术在同一生命中反映出来的相似性，并展示给我们不同但互补的信息，真的是太有趣了。我真的很喜欢这种互补的细节，比如金星在支持他的事业的同时，木星也在支持他的事业，还支持他的爱情生活。
Yeah, well, I don't want to ask too many follow-up questions because we've already given people a lot of information. I guess the one thing I was thinking about throughout both of your case study of Andrea Bocelli was whether you think that, like, once you go and look at somebody's life plan according to primary directions or according to circumambulations, if you would then change how you delineate their natal chart to them in a natal reading to think about, for example, like, the odd.
好的，我不想问太多后续问题，因为我们已经向大家提供了很多信息。我想问的一个问题是，在你们讨论安德烈·波切利的案例研究时，当你查看某人的人生规划时，比如根据重要的指引或环行旋转，你是否会因此改变你在命盘解读时的方式？比如说，考虑到一些特殊情况。
It's not every part of the chart from a starting point that will have three malefic periods in a row. It's a rare thing within the bounds to see, you know, it's Mars and then two Saturn or to see three benefics in a row, right? So both of you, I guess that was my kind of final question, was whether looking at circumambulations in primary directions then actually changes your natal understanding of a person's life. Following up on something Nadia said is that when you delineate a chart, you're always going back and forth or among various possibilities. You're looking at the natal chart, you're looking at the predictive techniques, and you're discussing with the person what happened these years. I noticed that in such a year you had this aspect or this configuration at age two, say, right? What happened that year?
并不是每个起始点的星盘都会连续出现三个凶星时期。这在命盘中是很罕见的情况，你可能会看到是火星，然后接两个土星，或者连续看到三个吉星。两位大师，我的最后一个问题是，观察初级方向和循环交接是否会实质性地改变你对某人命盘的理解。正如Nadia所提到的，当你解析一个星盘时，总是在不同可能性之间来回切换。你会查看本命盘、预测技术，并与对方讨论这些年发生了什么事情。例如，我注意到在某一年，也许是两岁时，你有这个相位或配置。那么，那一年发生了什么呢？
And then it's not either you look ahead when that type of configuration will repeat, and you'll know that it will be similar in some way. It won't be the same. It doesn't repeat exactly. But there will be some stress or benefit. I think for each person, you have to figure out, you know, there's only so many symbols in astrology. We have seven visible planets and a few extras, unless you use asteroids and you have thousands of extras. But you kind of figure out when you say when Mercury acts up in this chart, what's happened in the past? Well, that's likely to happen in the future. And I would bet if we looked at Mercury early in his life, we would see clues that there's an interest in law and maybe travel abroad.
然后，当这种配置再次出现时，你不妨提前看看，它在某种程度上是相似的，但不会完全相同。虽然不会完全重复，但可能会有一些压力或者好处。我觉得每个人都需要自己弄清楚。毕竟，星座学中符号是有限的，我们有七个可见的行星和一些其他的天体，除非你使用小行星，那么就有成千上万的符号。但是，当你说在这个图中水星开始活跃时，回顾过去发生了什么？那么这种情况很可能在将来再次发生。我敢说，如果我们观察水星在他生活早期的位置，可能会发现他对法律或出国旅行有兴趣的线索。
And maybe when it becomes more active later in life, we'll see this manifest more in some form. It's a fluid picture and you never know exactly, but you're always refining your understanding. It's such a good point, too, that the timing techniques can help warn someone to be more careful during a specific period. Or like on the flip side, you know, Bocelli was one of our clients and came to us in his 20s and, you know, shared that he had this dream that he was considering giving up on. But, you know, that was like so important to him. And you look at his chart and you see you've endured such an incredibly difficult childhood and there's so much potential you haven't even completely experienced the opportunity to express yet.
也许当它在生命后期变得更加活跃时，我们会看到它以某种形式显现。这是一个动态的过程，你永远无法完全了解，但你总是在不断完善自己的理解。这也是个很好的观点，就是时间技术可以帮助某人在特定时期更加谨慎。反过来说，波切利曾是我们的客户之一，他在二十多岁时来找我们，他说他有一个梦想，但正考虑放弃。然而，这个梦想对他来说非常重要。看他的星盘，你会发现他经历了极其艰难的童年，还有许多潜力尚未完全发挥。
And you can just say like, no, actually, hold on. Yeah, right. Don't give up on that dream till after one Jupiter. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's such a powerful technique for helping us to identify like potential crises, but also periods of opportunity to pace ourselves for the marathon of it. Absolutely. Wow. Thank you both so much for all of those thoughts and for being so generous with all of these teachings today. I feel like, yeah, like we've really like understood deeply in one conversation, both of these techniques.
你可以这样说，不，其实，先等等。对，在经历一个木星周期之前，不要放弃那个梦想。对，我认为这是一种非常强大的方法，可以帮助我们识别潜在的危机，同时也识别机遇的时期，从而为这场马拉松式的旅程调整步伐。没错。哇，感谢你们俩今天分享的所有想法和慷慨的教导。我觉得，通过这一次对话，我们已经对这两种方法有了深入的理解。
And it makes me so happy to see the way that we're doing this cross-disciplinary exchange between different departments and different ways of thinking and worldviews. I want to just mention that both Nadia and Anthony teach Nadia in the Hellenistic Timing Certificate and Anthony in the Medieval Certificate at Kepler. Hopefully, Anthony will be offering primary directions in the future again. And Nadia is offering circumambulations very soon, beginning on May 3rd. It's a five-week course. So I, yeah, I hope that people who got excited about this technique and practicing it will take Nadia's course and take Anthony's in the future.
看到我们在不同部门之间进行这种跨学科的交流，并结合不同的思维方式和世界观，这让我感到非常高兴。我想特别提到，Nadia 和 Anthony 都在 Kepler 教课，Nadia 负责希腊化时间证书课程，而 Anthony 授课于中世纪证书课程。希望 Anthony 将来能够再次教授原始方向课程。而 Nadia 很快就会在 5 月 3 日开始提供一门为期五周的巡行课程。所以，我希望那些对这项技术感兴趣并想要实践的人能够参加 Nadia 的课程，并在将来参加 Anthony 的课程。
Yeah, I just finished the primary directions course and I think they're planning it for next winter, probably in. You're allowed to have a break. Yeah. Regarding Nadia's course, I took her course and it's excellent. That is the best testimonial we could hope for, so yes. I likewise took Anthony's and it was amazing and I felt so incredibly lucky to be a part of that, so. We are all so lucky to get to be part of all of this exchange of knowledge and ideas. So, thank you both. So generous. I'm infinitely grateful to both of you and more soon.
是的，我刚刚完成了初级方向课程，我想他们计划在明年冬天开设此课程。你可以休息一下。关于Nadia的课程，我参加过，她的课程非常棒。这是我们所期望的最佳评价，所以是的。我也参加了Anthony的课程，那也是非常出色的，我感到非常幸运能成为其中的一部分。所以，我们都很幸运能参与到这场知识和思想的交流中。非常感谢你们两位，非常慷慨。我对你们两位充满无尽的感激，很快会有更多交流。
Okay. Very nice to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
好的。非常高兴见到你。非常感谢你。谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。