Former Interim President of Israel Avraham Burg Speaks Out on Netanyahu’s Killing Spree
发布时间 2026-03-23 22:01:00 来源
The government of Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel and its many organized cheerleaders here in the United States have for some time now made the case that all criticism of their government is anti-Semitism. And it is because their government somehow speaks for all Jews. Globally, every Jewish person is represented by the Netanyahu government. Therefore, the actions of the Netanyahu government represent every Jew on this planet. And any criticisms of that government are by definition an attack on every Jew. They are anti-Semitism. It's a position that doesn't make any sense, but it's kind of hardened into a consensus in the United States, at least for right now. If you think about it for a moment, it's not only incorrect, it's a kind of slander against Jews. It is itself a kind of anti-Semitism because no, not all Jews are represented by Benjamin Netanyahu, and there are many who don't want to be. And that's true, even within Israel.
以色列的本雅明·内塔尼亚胡政府及其在美国的众多支持者，已经一段时间以来把所有对其政府的批评都归为反犹太主义。他们认为，因为内塔尼亚胡政府在某种程度上代表了所有犹太人，所以全球每一个犹太人都被内塔尼亚胡政府代表。因此，内塔尼亚胡政府的行为代表了这个星球上的每一个犹太人，对该政府的任何批评在定义上都是对所有犹太人的攻击，都是反犹太主义。这种立场没有道理，但在目前的美国似乎已成为一种共识。一旦思考一下就会发现，这不仅是不正确的，还对犹太人是一种诽谤。实际上，这本身就是一种反犹太主义，因为并不是所有的犹太人都被本雅明·内塔尼亚胡所代表，并且有很多人不愿意被代表。这种情况在以色列内部同样是存在的。
Yes, polling consistently shows that most Israelis were in favor of the war, but in Israel as in all countries, most people don't really know the details of what is happening or why. And that's by design. Israel is a particularly censored place. It's also a particularly small place, fewer than 10 million people. And so, its citizens, by and large, live the same way we do in an information vacuum, where what they know is determined by somebody else for political reasons. All of which makes it very important to do our best to break the spell of this, to hear from people who disagree and hear them explain why. People who have some credibility and knowledge, not just wackos with weird opinions, but thoughtful people who have a dissenting view.
是的，调查结果一直显示，大多数以色列人支持这场战争，但在以色列，如同在所有国家一样，大多数人其实并不了解发生了什么或为什么会发生。而这是有意为之的。以色列是一个特别受到审查的地方，同时也是一个特别小的地方，人口不到1000万。因此，大部分公民就像我们一样，生活在一个信息真空中，他们所知道的信息出于政治原因被其他人决定。这使得我们尽最大努力打破这种状况变得非常重要，要倾听持不同意见的人的声音，了解他们的观点和理由。我们需要那些有信誉和知识的人，而不是某些有着奇怪意见的怪人，而是那些具有深思熟虑的、持不同意见的人。
And one of those people is a man called Avram Berg. Berg is in his early 70s. He was born in Israel. He's from a prominent Zionist family, and he himself was a prominent political figure for many years. He was remembered the Kineshsit. He was Speaker of the Kineshsit, the Israeli Parliament, its lawmaking body, its Congress. He was even interim president of Israel at one point. So his opinions may represent the minority of Israeli opinion, but he himself is not a fringe figure. He was at the very center of Israeli politics. Once again, he was the interim president of the country.
其中有一个人名叫阿夫拉姆·伯格。伯格今年七十出头，出生于以色列，来自一个显赫的犹太复国主义家庭，他自己也曾是多年的著名政治人物。他曾是以色列议会的议员，并担任过议会议长，这个议会是以色列的立法机构，相当于国会。他甚至还曾担任过以色列的临时总统。因此，虽然他的观点可能代表以色列较少数的意见，但他本人并不是一个边缘人物。他曾处于以色列政治的中心。再强调一下，他曾是国家的临时总统。
And in the hours after this current war broke out, he wrote a very strong op-ed in the Israeli press, explaining why it was a terrible idea, why it didn't serve Israel's interests, and while the people doing it had no idea why they were doing it. It's a pretty brave thing to say in the middle of a country of war, but he said it because he's a pretty brave guy, a gricher to disagree. So we thought it would be worthwhile to hear directly from him. From Berg from Israel.
在这场战争爆发后的数小时内，他在以色列媒体上发表了一篇措辞强烈的评论文章，解释了为什么这是一个糟糕的决定，为什么它不符合以色列的利益，以及这样做的人根本不明白他们为什么要这样做。在战争中的国家提出这样的看法相当勇敢，但他说了因为他是个很有勇气的人，一个敢于持不同意见的人。因此，我们认为直接听听他的看法会很有价值。来自以色列的伯格。
Here it is. Of Roomburg, thank you very much for doing this. I want to ask you about something that's happening right now, apparently. So the president of the United States issued a statement this morning saying that because of ongoing negotiations between the U.S. and Iran, the U.S. would not actually commence with hitting civilian infrastructure as he'd promised, and that we're going to try and work something out diplomatically this week. Just immediately after issuing that statement, there were reports that the Israeli military was hitting civilian infrastructure in Iran. What, assuming that's true, what do you make of that?
好的。Roomburg，非常感谢你愿意讨论这个问题。我想询问你关于当前正在发生的一件事。今天早上，美国总统发表了一份声明，称由于美国和伊朗之间正在进行的谈判，美国实际上不会像他之前承诺的那样，攻击伊朗的民用基础设施，我们将尝试在本周通过外交途径解决问题。然而，就在他发表声明后不久，有报道称以色列军方正在攻击伊朗的民用基础设施。假设这一情况属实，你怎么看待这个问题？
What strategy does that suggest? The same strategy that Israel has for years, no strategy. In Israel in many, many cases, the compilation of many tactics sometimes assemble into a defective strategy, but otherwise nothing. I mean, just look at the last two hours when was the announcement of the president, the surprising one two hours ago, and you have a bundle of messages coming from all directions. The first and the most important one, hallelujah, they're going to renew the flights. So we can go for Passover vacation. That's the immediate reaction of many Israelis, my daughter included.
这段话的意思可以翻译成中文如下：
“这暗示了什么策略？与多年来以色列所采取的策略相同——没有策略。在以色列，很多情况下，许多战术的组合有时只是拼凑成一个有缺陷的策略，否则就什么都没有。我的意思是，只要看看过去两个小时内发布的总统声明，这个令人惊讶的消息，两小时前宣布的通知，你会发现来自各方的信息纷至沓来。最重要的一个消息是，哈利路亚，他们要恢复航班了。所以我们可以去度逾越节假期。很多以色列人，包括我的女儿在内，都是立即作出这样的反应。”
The second is, oh, Netanyahu knew all together. I mean, Netanyahu is behind the move as if framing it as his own move. And then, oh, Trump, oh, he is so softy. He is so weak. He doesn't have any resilience. The Iranians, they trick him, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Bottom line is nobody has a clue. In this chaos, the military does what he does the best, simply hammer the nail. But you're suggesting that those tactics, the one we're seeing today and the ones we've seen for the last month, don't add up to a strategy. There's no strategic goal in mind.
第二个观点是，哦，内塔尼亚胡完全知道这一切。我的意思是，好像是内塔尼亚胡在背后策划这一切，并把它当作自己的行动。而且，哦，特朗普，他太软弱了。他太没有韧性了。伊朗人欺骗了他，诸如此类。总之，没人真的知道真相。在这种混乱中，军队只是按照它最擅长的方式行事，简单地说就是钉钉子。但你是在暗示，这些策略，无论是我们今天看到的，还是过去一个月看到的，都没有形成一个完整的战略。没有明确的战略目标。
I listened to you very carefully in the last couple of weeks and the way you try to conceive the Israeli strategy from Netanyahu's 40 years life mission to the greater land of Israel, Biblically speaking, or Miss Yannicus, got a logical one. And I envy you that you really believe that we have something like that. Okay. It doesn't work that way. I mean, in a way that let's start somewhere else. I mean, somebody once told me that what's the difference between an Israeli and an American among many differences is that we Israelis, we see an aim, so we aim and we shoot. You're Americans, you see an aim, so you take an aim and aim and aim and aim and aim. You are a lot about process and we are a lot about yellow, let's shoot it. And there is a difference here.
在过去的几周里，我非常认真地听取了你的意见，你试图从《圣经》上以色列大地的40年历史使命的角度来理解以色列的战略，尤其是从内塔尼亚胡的角度来看这件事。我很羡慕你，因为你真的相信我们有类似的东西。然而，事情并不是那样运作的。换个角度来说吧，有人曾告诉我，以色列人和美国人之间的区别之一是，我们以色列人看到一个目标，就瞄准并开枪。而你们美国人看到目标，一直在瞄准、瞄准、再瞄准。你们更注重过程，而我们则更加果断，有差别在这。
I have no idea what's the American strategy. I do not know what was the end game. I have no idea what is the final design, the architects of the White House or the Washington really had in mind. I can tell you one thing for sure. Israel wants to remove the Iranian monster because part of it is a real threat and part of it because we pumped it to the size of a monster. So we are fighting in a way a real demon and a demon which is our own creation. So what we want to do is we don't like the war, we want it to end, we don't like the missiles, we hate the sirens, we skip nights after nights of sleeping, but once we are into it, let's make sure that it's over. So the real will of many Israelis is let's get over with the Iranians.
我不知道美国的策略是什么，也不知道最终的目标是什么。我不清楚白宫或华盛顿的设计者们真正想要达成的是什么。不过有一点我可以肯定，以色列想要消除伊朗这个“怪物”，因为它一部分是确实的威胁，另一部分是因为我们将它渲染成了一个“怪物”。所以我们在对抗一个真实的敌人，同时也在对抗我们自己制造出的敌人。我们不喜欢战争，我们想让它结束；我们不喜欢导弹，我们讨厌警报声，常常因此彻夜无眠。但既然已经开始了，就要确保它能结束。许多以色列人的真实愿望是赶紧解决伊朗的问题。
The problem is the relative size, Israel is a small country, Iran is a large country. How exactly do Israelis expect that's going to happen? Size wise and number wise, let's say 10 million in a good day and they are 100 million in an average day. In a way many Israelis do not really measure it this way. Many Israelis believe that we are a kind of a superpower. A couple of weeks ago I was in a high school somewhere and I promoted my good old, no good Nick piece agenda. And one of the students stood up and said, Abrum, can I ask you a question? I said, yes, please do. And he said, why won't we do to them what we did to them in Afghanistan? And I said, I know Gaza, I know Lebanon, I know Syria, I know Egypt, what did we do to whom in Afghanistan? I mean, we haven't been there yet.
问题在于相对规模，以色列是一个小国，而伊朗是一个大国。以色列人到底是怎么期望这会发生的呢？从规模和人数上来说，以色列的好日子也只有一千万人，而平均情况下对面可能有一亿人。不少以色列人并不这样看待这个问题，许多人相信以色列是某种意义上的超级大国。几周前，我在一个高中推广我一直坚持的观点，一个学生站起来问：“阿布拉姆，我能问你一个问题吗？”我说：“当然，请问。” 他说：“为什么我们不可以像在阿富汗一样对他们做同样的事情？”我回答说：“我了解加沙、黎巴嫩、叙利亚、埃及，但我们在阿富汗对谁做了什么？我们还没去过那里呢。”
And I asked him, where are you from originally? And he said, I was born in Moscow and I said to myself, ha ha, he thinks like a Russian. And I asked him, tell me, how many Jews are there in the world now, with no hesitation? He said, ah, 54.3. Okay. And how many Israelis are we? He said something like 20 million. In the eyes of many Israelis, we're not just super power technologically and super power economically and a regional hajjim on politically, we have the numbers, the numbers in economy, the numbers in support, the numbers in demography without really calculating what are the real numbers. So when you ask the Israelis, how, simply do it? And what will the end victory look like from an Israeli perspective? How will Israelis know they've won? I don't have a good answer for this question.
我问他，你最初来自哪里？他回答说，我出生在莫斯科。我心里想，哈哈，他思考问题的方式就像个俄罗斯人。我又问他，现在全世界有多少犹太人？他不假思索地说，大约54.3万。那么，我们以色列人有多少呢？他说，大概有2000万。对许多以色列人来说，我们不仅是技术和经济方面的超级大国，也是政治上的区域强国。我们在经济、支持和人口上都有很多数字，但并没有真正计算出实际的数字。所以，当你问以色列人，如何简单做到这些？从以色列的视角看，最终的胜利会是什么样子？以色列人怎么知道自己赢了？对这个问题，我没有一个很好的答案。
But a sense that in many cases, the American or the Western way of thinking is usually a kind of a win-win. I mean, we end the war and we make sure that we left the other side somebody to talk with. I mean, yes, it is ridiculous that American president is saying, I would like to talk with somebody, but there is nobody there because I killed him. Okay. This is your own oxymoron. This is a paradox that I take it you intellectually, you know how to squirt this circle. Okay. But from the Israeli point of view, in many, many cases, philosophically, no, psychologically, we do not live in a win-win situation. We live in a zero-sum game. If there is a competition, if there is a race, if there is a war, if there is a battle, if there is a conflict that ends up, that packer and a room profits, something is wrong with me.
在很多情况下，美国或西方的思维方式通常是一种双赢理念。这意味着，当我们结束战争时，我们会确保留给对方一个可以对话的对象。然而，美国总统说想和某人谈话，却发现没有人可谈，因为他已经把对方消灭了，这确实是非常荒谬的。这是一种自相矛盾的现象，也许你们在智力上知道如何解决这个悖论。但从以色列的角度来看，在很多情况下，无论是哲学上还是心理上，我们并不认为这是一个双赢的局面。我们生存在一种零和游戏中。无论是竞争、比赛、战争还是冲突，任何一方的获利往往意味着我的损失，如果对方也能获得利益，那说明我一定出了问题。
I want to win alone. I want you to be dead. I want to humiliate you. I want you, I want to cancel you, whoever you are, my enemy. And when you look at this philosophy, you understand where comes the political rhetoric that every adversary, never mind who is him, minor or major, but the end of the day he is a Hitler. And every decade we have a new adult Hitler. And since everybody is the arch enemy, there is only one solution to this one enemy. Remove it. And therefore, when you ask me what is the Israeli political echelon, forget about the people in the street, the political echelon approach toward any kind of resolution, whatever it is, it's not a dialogist one.
我想独自赢。我希望你死。我想羞辱你。我想要你，我想取消你，无论你是谁，我的敌人。当你看着这种哲学时，你会理解为什么政治言论中每个对手，说到底，不管是小敌还是大敌，都会被形容成希特勒。而每十年我们似乎都有一个新的成人版希特勒。既然每个人都是大敌，就只有一个解决方案，就是去除它。因此，当你问我以色列政治班子的态度时，不考虑街上的人，他们对任何解决方案的态度都不是通过对话来解决问题的。
Now, it is not just about Netanyahu, which is a case by himself. When you look at what is allegedly called opposition in Israel, they simply compete with the government who is more aggressive, who is more as if resilient, who has more so-called creative solution to the enemy we have to demolish and obliterate. And this is why you hardly find in Israel any reconciliatory politics.
现在，这不仅仅是关于内塔尼亚胡，他本身就是一个特例。当你看看以色列所谓的反对派时，他们只是在与政府竞争，看谁更强硬，谁更像是坚定不屈，谁有更多所谓的对敌人施行“彻底消灭”的创造性方案。因此，你几乎在以色列找不到任何和解的政治。
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Where does this attitude come from? When I was in school, in high school, every other week, the rabbi, I was in a religious high school, a religious academy, a Shiva. So the rabbi used to call my mom. My father was busy, so he used to call my mom and said, you have a very, very talented boy child. He's like an egg. The more I boil him, the harder he becomes.
这种态度是从哪里来的呢？在我上学的时候，高中的时候，每隔一周，拉比会打电话给我妈妈。我上的是一所宗教高中，一个宗教学院，一个“希伯来文学校”。因为我爸爸很忙，所以拉比通常会打电话给我妈妈，说：你有一个非常非常有天赋的男孩。他就像一个鸡蛋，我越煮他，他就越硬。
Now in a way, our life experience has Jews in the last couple of thousands of years, and Israelis in the last couple of decades boiled us into a very, very hard stiff neck egg. On one hand, we never trusted hands offered to us. And on the other hand, we never experienced to extend our own hands. I'll give you two examples. The rhetoric of Israel since 48 is a rhetoric of survival, of existential threat, of permanent imminent war.
在某种程度上，我们的生活经历使我们犹太人在过去几千年里，以及以色列人在过去几十年中变得非常固执。而以色列自1948年以来的言辞，一直是关于生存、存在威胁以及持续的紧迫战争的言辞。
Out of nowhere, came President Saadat to Israel. I remember myself as a young soldier at 73 war, at the other side of the Suiz Canal, in a foxhole in the desert. In the middle of the night, I packed a frightened 18 years old boy, and I was listening to the then iPhone transistor. Do you remember the transistor with the rusty voice? Oh, yeah. And I heard President Saadat in the middle of the night say, I'm ready to sacrifice a million and a half Egyptian soldiers in order to redeem the silent peninsula. And I said, holy, holy God, million and a half Egyptian soldiers against me, Abraham Bogat, Jew boy from Jerusalem. I was frightened to death.
不知从哪里传来的消息，萨达特总统来到以色列。我还记得自己在73年的战争中作为一名年轻士兵，位于苏伊士运河另一边的沙漠战壕中。深夜里，我打包了一个惊慌失措的18岁男孩，就是我自己，当时我在听那时的“iPhone”——晶体管收音机。你还记得那个沙哑声音的收音机吗？哦，是的。我听到半夜里萨达特总统说：“我准备牺牲一百五十万埃及士兵，以收复沉默的半岛。”我心里想，天哪，一百五十万埃及士兵要对付我，耶路撒冷来的犹太男孩亚伯拉罕·博加特。我吓得要命。
And then four years later, he came to Jerusalem, and I'm running. Now I'm a memory, at least partrooper officer, young one, running after his convoy and chant normal war, normal bloodshed. It was redemption. It was a scatological. It was messianic. It was the first time Israel was offered a different syntax from a syntax of war to a grammar of peace. We never grew up into the challenge of Saadat. Never. We never walked all the way with the Egyptians, with the Palestinians as was part of the original camp David framework. And we rejected it. Even when couple of years later Oslo, Deus Ex Machina, out of nowhere Oslo came to the world.
四年后，他来到耶路撒冷，而我正在奔跑。现在我成了一段记忆，至少是一个年轻的伞兵军官，追随着他的车队，喊着正常的战争，正常的流血。这是一种救赎，是末日论，是救世主义。以色列第一次获得了一种不同的表达方式，从战争的语法转向和平的语法。我们从未迎接萨达特提出的挑战。我们从未完全与埃及人、巴勒斯坦人同行，尽管这本是戴维营协议框架的一部分。我们拒绝了它。甚至在几年后，奥斯陆协议突然出现，但我们也未能抓住这个机会。
As problematic as now we know the fact that Oslo was at the time when it was launched, it was an eruption of hope. It was again an offer for a different language, but didn't grow into it. So Israel does not have a vocabulary or state of mind to talk peace. Now there is a different layer that I'm not at all sure we are. It's too early in the conversation between us, but this is the transformation from eternal Judaism that was a religion of powerlessness. If I would like to use what's left-hawal terminology, we had the power of powerlessness and we transformed into Israelis with the power of the Almighty and we feel much more threatened.
尽管我们现在知道奥斯陆协议在当时存在的问题，但在推出时它带来了希望的曙光。它为我们提供了一种不同的语言，但最终并未实现。所以以色列没有谈和平的词汇或心态。现在有一个不同的层面，我不确定我们是否处于这个阶段。说这话还为时过早，但这涉及到从作为一种无力宗教的永恒犹太教的转变。如果用左派的术语来说，我们曾经拥有无力的力量，但现在我们变成了拥有全能力量的以色列人，因此感到更多威胁。
Well, there's a paradox. So as Israel has become more objectively powerful, it has felt more threatened, more endangered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does seem like if you were to just as an outsider, it does seem like Israel is more threatened and it does seem like if it had continued on the trajectory from the Sadat talks or from Oslo in the way that you suggest it would be less threatened. I think objectively that's probably true. Or maybe both. Maybe at the same time we have opportunities and the threats are better threats, so to say.
嗯，这里有一个悖论。当以色列客观上变得更强大时，它反而感到更加受到威胁，更加危险。是的。从一个外部观察者的角度来看，以色列确实显得更具威胁性。似乎如果以色列继续沿着萨达特会谈或奥斯陆协议的轨迹前进，就会少受威胁。我认为客观来说这可能是真的。或者两者皆有，也许同时我们有机会，而威胁变得相对更好，对吧。
Let's look at numbers just for a second. When I was a student, I mean, at elementary school, a pupil, we were told that in 48 the year in which the state of Israel was born, seven Arab armies invaded the just-born state of Israel. So 48 it was seven versus one. In 67, 19 years later, it was only three out of the seven. Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Six years later in 73, it was only two out of the three, only Syria and Egypt. Ever since, as broken as it is and as chilly as it is, with Egypt, we have a peace agreement and Syria in a very good day is a dysfunctioning threat.
让我们来看一下这些数字。当我还是学生时，也就是小学的时候，我们被告知，以色列建国的1948年，有七支阿拉伯军队入侵刚刚成立的以色列。因此，1948年是以一对七。到了19年后的1967年，在这七支军队中只有三支参战，即约旦、埃及和叙利亚。再过六年，到了1973年，只有剩下的叙利亚和埃及加入战斗。从那以后，尽管和埃及的关系艰难且冷淡，但我们达成了和平协议；而和叙利亚的关系，即使是在最好的情况下，也只是一个不太成问题的威胁。
So you can, and the Palestinian issue that was not there in 48 the way it is today was born along the road. So you can say listen, in eight decades, 48 to 26 from seven armies to half a problem which is the Palestinian one, this is an evolution. This is a positive progress. And in a way it is. And this is before we count in the potential of Saudi Arabia, the potential of the Emirates, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand, two elements emerged as well.
所以你可以看到，巴勒斯坦问题在1948年时并不像今天这样显著，它是在历史进程中逐渐演变而来的。你可以说，从1948年到2026年的这八十年里，从七个国家参与的战争到如今只剩下巴勒斯坦这一半的问题，这就是一种演变，是一种积极的进展。某种程度上确实如此。而且，这还不算上沙特阿拉伯、阿联酋等国家的潜力。另一方面，还有两个新的因素也出现了。
The first years, Israel that at least in two, three stages in its life was fully accepted in the, among the family of nations, 48 and it's euphoria, 67 and the eruption of redemptive feelings all over the world maybe. And atrocities of October 7, 23, three times that Israel in conflict time, this is beside Camp David, beside Oslo, beside other positive peace agreements. But in a conflict situation that Israel was well received and well accepted in the world. And then we must ask ourselves, how was it wasted?
在以色列的头几年，至少有两个或三个阶段，它在国际社会中被完全接受。1948年的建国狂热，1967年全世界可能出现的救赎情感，以及2023年10月7日的暴行。这三次以色列在冲突时期，除了像戴维营和奥斯陆协议及其他正面的和平协议之外，以色列在国际上也得到了良好的接受和认可。然后我们必须问自己，这些良好的国际接纳是如何被浪费掉的。
How comes that two years ago, three years ago, Israel, three years ago, in 23? Israel was so well sympathized with all over the world and now so despised. So the threat of being rejected, of being a world pariah, maybe it's not a military one, but it's a deeper one, it's an existential one. And the other is assuming that the Iranians would have had a nuclear capability that very soon would lead to a chain reaction, chain of reactions that others will have nuclear weapons in the Middle East without using the weapons, but a middle is with mass destruction weapons is a different scale of a threat for many, but for Israel especially.
两年前，三年前，为什么当时以色列在全世界范围内那么受欢迎，而现在却如此不受待见？这种被世界拒绝的威胁，也许不是军事层面的，但却是一种更深层次的、生存层面的威胁。另外，如果伊朗具备了核能力，这可能很快会引发连锁反应，导致中东其他国家也拥有核武器。即便没有使用这些武器，一个拥有大规模毁灭性武器的中东对很多国家来说，尤其是以色列，是一种不同等级的威胁。
So I will say yes, we have better relationship with many and the situation is not 48, is not 67, is not even 23, but the threats are not gone, they were transformed and different and required different strategy and philosophy and value system to address. Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary, you work 40, 50 hours a week just by groceries and gas things you used to be able to afford without thinking that much about it. Then the bank's charge you 20% interest, the system is designed to keep you under water, it's working, but there's another option.
所以我会说，是的，我们与许多人有了更好的关系，情况不是48，也不是67，甚至不是23，但威胁并没有消失，它们只是被转变了，需要不同的策略、哲学和价值观来应对。通货膨胀使信用卡账单尤其令人恐惧，你每周工作40到50个小时，仅仅是为了买日用品和汽油，而这些原本是你无需过多考虑就能负担得起的。然后银行向你收取20%的利息，整个系统旨在让你处于困境中，而确实是这样的。但还有其他选择。
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How did this four start? How did this? Sorry. I'm not sure if this month old war against Iran, there's debate in the United States about how it started, whether or not the United States was pursuing its own interest, defending itself from Iran or whether President Trump followed the lead of Prime Minister Netanyahu. What's your view? If we go back to your initial introduction or your immediate question you bombarded me with without any information, you said we have no clue what's going on. So we don't yet have information, neither about the launching of the campaign, neither nor about the continuation of it.
这场战争是怎么开始的？抱歉，我不太确定这场对伊朗的战争是否已经持续了一个月。在美国，有关这场战争如何开始的讨论纷纷，争论美国是否是在追求自身利益、保护自己不受伊朗攻击，或是特朗普总统是在跟随以色列总理内塔尼亚胡的路线。你怎么看？如果回到你的初始介绍或者你最开始向我提问的问题，你说我们对发生的事情毫无头绪。因此，我们目前没有关于这场行动启动或持续的具体信息。
So in the world with no information, a realm of no information between me and you, we can look at the Gestalt, we can look at the frameworks of what happened, the details that we like will fall in. And I will say the immediate trigger was an awful one. How we had an opportunity? Since when you declare war because there is an opportunity? I mean, that's the worst opportunistic reason I've ever heard in my life. My father was a very wise man used to say about one of his colleagues, that's a man of principles. Principle number one, opportunism.
在一个没有信息的世界里，也就是在我和你之间没有信息的领域里，我们可以从整体上去看待事情的框架，细节会自然地浮现出来。我要说，直接的诱因是相当糟糕的。机会是怎么来的？什么时候因为有机会就要宣战了？这是我一生中听过的最糟糕的投机理由。我父亲是一位很有智慧的人，他曾经对他的一位同事说过，这人倒是有原则，原则第一条：机会主义。
And I say, what kind of a principle is this one to the class such a world war in a volatile reality that China is out there waiting for something and Russian Ukraine is unbushing us? And now you have to have another front. So the immediate trigger that we had an opportunity, I will say, whatever was the opportunity, using it was an unjust immoral trigger. The larger frame is Netanyahu life mission. I take it that it requires more than one takakal son and more than two hours between you and me or five hours or as long as we can tolerate each other in order to understand this figure. He's a very, very interesting individual and a very, very significant leader of a state in this time. Significant, I hope it's natural enough because I don't have much of sympathy to his leadership. However, he's there, he's significant.
我想说，在如此动荡的现实中，发生这样一场世界战争的原则是什么？中国似乎在静候机会，俄罗斯与乌克兰的冲突对我们构成了压力？现在我们又面临另一个战场。尽管我们有过可以利用的机会，我认为任何机会的利用都是不公正和不道德的。更大的背景是内塔尼亚胡的毕生使命。我认为理解这一人物需要比我们之间的两小时谈话更多的时间，可能是五个小时，甚至更长时间，只要我们彼此能忍受，才能真正理解他。他是一位非常有趣的个体，也是当下这个时代非常重要的国家领导人。重要性，我希望这话听上去足够客观，因为我对他的领导风格并无多少同情。然而，他在那里，他很重要。
Where his life mission is coming from. And I will say that it has two drivers. One is very Jewish and one is very conservative. The very Jewish is in a way like my mom. My mom believed that the world is divided 50, 50, 50% Jews and 50% to hate the Jews, which means she believes we are something like 3.5 billion people with the Jews, okay? And the rest of you, whoever you are, do not like us. So this notion that the entire world is against us and you cannot trust nobody but ourselves is embedded in the Jewish conscience ever since. Maybe even since the Bible, since biblical time. Not for sure later on in the exilic period instilled it into our psyche.
他的人生使命来源于哪里？我认为有两个推动因素：一个是非常犹太的，另一个则是非常保守的。非常犹太的方面有点像我的妈妈。她相信世界分为两半：50%的犹太人和50%讨厌犹太人的人。她认为我们犹太人大约有35亿，其余的人，不管是谁，都不喜欢我们。这种认为整个世界都反对我们、除了自己以外谁都不可靠的观念，自圣经时期乃至流亡时期便深植于犹太人民的意识中。
So we do not trust and therefore we're not being trusted in a way. There is a dialogue of not trusting here. So Netanyahu is part of this classic Jewish paranoia. The entire world is against us. At the same time he is a very kind of a 1970s, 80s, 90s conservative and your hobby, Newcom. To say we are the children of light and are all of those offspring of darkness and our life mission is to push them back. Our life mission is to fight them. It's never compromised. Never realize if there is somebody out there that we can communicate with. Maybe there are not a monolithic group of people. Maybe like us that divided that dissected the diverse and there is a richness of expressions in ideologies and values and religious manifestation.
因此，我们不信任，也因此未被信任。在这里存在一种不信任的对话。内塔尼亚胡就是这种典型的犹太偏执的一部分，总觉得全世界都在与我们作对。同时，他有点像上世纪70、80、90年代的保守人士，充满怀旧之情。认为我们是光明的子女，而他们都是黑暗的后代，我们的人生使命就是要将他们击退，与他们斗争，永不妥协。他们从未意识到，也许外面有人是可以沟通的。也许对方并不是一个单一的群体，也许像我们一样，他们是多元和丰富的，在意识形态、价值观和宗教表现方面有各种不同的表达。
No, no, no, no, they are all of them. And when you listen to Netanyahu hunting on through Netanyahu, he is the leader of our civilization of light versus whomever is the civilization of darkness. So here's built in classic Jewish paranoia that many Jews have. Some of it rightly so, some of it molded into it. And part of it is part of a world view that you know better than I do because you explore it almost a couple of times a week. And this is the mistrusting Christian West who does not trust anybody but it's off. And when you look at some of the attitude towards Europe itself, does not even trust itself.
不，不，不，他们全都是这样的。当你听到内塔尼亚胡继续谈论时，他被视为我们光明文明的领导者，而对立面则是被认为是黑暗文明的人。这反映了一种经典的 اليهود人偏执，这种心理在许多犹太人中都有存在。有些偏执是有理由的，有些则是形成了一种特定的世界观。你对这种世界观可能了解得比我多，因为你几乎每周都会探索它几次。这种世界观对基督教西方存在不信任，西方不仅对别人不信任，更是不信任自己。
So where this war started, it started with an opportunity and a frame of mind. How do you think Prime Minister Netanyahu sees President Trump? He's afraid of him because he's unexpected. I don't know if the term whimsical is a right one but is unexpected. I believe the more I monitor the actions of the president, the reason kind of a world view behind it. Not always articulated the jury but the fact I can realize I can realize some things there. So first Netanyahu is fearful of the unexpected. The second Netanyahu is so talented that he took this advantage and made it his prime advantage how to puppeteer the president.
这场战争的起因是一种机遇和心态。你觉得内塔尼亚胡总理如何看待特朗普总统呢？他对特朗普感到有些惧怕，因为特朗普的行为难以预测。我不确定“异想天开”这个词是否合适，但确实是意料之外。我越是观察总统的行为，就越能意识到背后有一种世界观的原因，虽然并不总是很明确，但我能看出一些事情。所以首先，内塔尼亚胡惧怕这种不可预测性。其次，内塔尼亚胡非常聪明，他把这种劣势转化为优势，成为操控总统的首要手段。
So I will say he has a dual feeling, a fear and a know how to use this fear for his advantage. Now look at the pattern, how many American presidents so Israeli prime ministers as their elder brothers? Like Clinton and Rabin, George W. Bush and Eud Olmert, maybe not elder brother but an experienced one, Golda Mayor and Nixon. So there is there a kind of older younger brother relationship between Israeli prime ministers and American presidents that Netanyahu with his vast experience and malicious intentions knows how to use also this leverage point in order to promote his agenda with this American president.
所以，我会说他有一种双重感觉：一方面是恐惧，另一方面则知道如何利用这种恐惧为自己谋利。现在看看这种模式，有多少美国总统把以色列总理视为他们的兄长？比如克林顿和拉宾，乔治·W·布什和艾胡德·奥尔默特，也许不是亲兄长但还是个有经验的人，像戈尔达·梅厄和尼克松。因此，以色列总理和美国总统之间有一种类似兄长和小弟的关系。而内塔尼亚胡凭借他丰富的经验和不良意图，懂得如何利用这一关系杠杆来推进他与这位美国总统的议程。
How do you think he did it? What were the leverage points? I heard you with this how you call him the prophet? The Canadian prophet this week. Yes, it's interesting. I'll tell you something very funny in a second if I may. He came with fourth theories how it happened. I'll tell you something very very simple. It's a chemistry between two charmers. Listen, I cannot stand you. But you're a nice person. So I talk with you. I'll take that as a half. Of course. I mean, no, it's one and a half. And you know my position and despite my positions, we're talking. So, so there is something there at the very personal chemistry that simply worked.
你怎么看他是怎么做到的？他用了哪些关键点？我听说你称他为先知？这位加拿大先知这个星期。是的，很有意思。如果可以的话，我待会儿告诉你一些非常有趣的事情。他提出了四种理论来解释事情的经过。我告诉你一些非常简单的事情，就是两个魅力十足的人之间的化学反应。听着，我受不了你，但你是个好人，所以我还是和你聊天。我把这当作一半的承认。当然，我的意思是，这是一个半的承认。你知道我的立场，尽管如此，我们还在交流。所以，在非常个人化的层面上有一些化学反应确实起作用了。
And Netanyahu is brilliant campaigner. Listen, when you walk out of the room with Netanyahu, check your sleeves whether you have your hands into them still. Maybe he told you your hands out of your sleeves. How talented it is he is. He picked his pocket and so did Trump to him. They use each other. I don't understand I mean, I understand half of that explanation, but I don't understand what President Trump or the United States could conceivably gain from this. It seems like a hundred percent loss to me. It's more a question to use in American than a question to me as far away a subject of the American empire or the American influence zone.
内塔尼亚胡是一位出色的竞选者。听着，当你和内塔尼亚胡一起走出房间时，检查一下你的袖子，看你的手是否还在里面。他可能会告诉你手伸出袖子。他非常有才，甚至能神不知鬼不觉地偷走你的东西，特朗普对此也心知肚明。两人互相利用。我不太明白，我能理解这解释的一半，但我不明白特朗普总统或美国能从中获得什么好处。在我看来，这似乎是百分之百的损失。对美国人来说，这是一个更值得提出的问题，而对我这个远离美国帝国或美国影响区的人来说，这问题与我无关。
Okay. Yes. I'm sure that there is a profit here. Now is the profit, for example, a place in history as much as many authoritarian leaders. Since they do not trust the people to commemorate them after the past away, so they commemorate themselves while still alive, make sure that our libraries on them in cultural centers and bridges and airports and new names, okay. Still a historic place of rule. And when you think of Trump coming from Manhattan with so many Jewish associations around him, he's familiar to the Jewish talk of New York. He's familiar to the rhetoric of Jews and their association and affiliation with Israel.
好的。是的，我确定这里面有利益。比如说，这种利益是否是一个像许多专制领导人一样在历史上占有一席之地。由于这些领导人不信任人们在他们去世后会纪念他们，所以他们在世时就通过文化中心、图书馆、桥梁、机场等方式为自己留名，确保他们的统治能在历史上占据一席之地。当你想到特朗普从曼哈顿来到这么多犹太人聚集的地方时，他对纽约的犹太人对话很熟悉，他熟悉犹太人的修辞以及他们与以色列的关联和联系。
He understands the many of them sees Israel on the permanent threats of extinction. Saving Israel before the base, before the Christian Zionists, saving Israel is historically speaking, is almost prophetic. Listen to his rhetoric after Gaza. I put an end to a 3,000 years of a conflict. I don't know when the counting began. It's counting, okay. Nonetheless, it's a state of mind. It's politics and history mixed. Netanyahu as a child, as a son of an historian understands this, how to play this card.
他明白，许多人认为以色列面临永久的灭绝威胁。在基督教犹太复国主义者出现之前，拯救以色列从历史上来看几乎是具有预言性的。在加沙事件后，听听他的言辞：“我结束了长达三千年的冲突。” 我不知道这个三千年的计数是从什么时候开始的。无论如何，这是一种心态，是政治与历史的交织。作为历史学家的儿子，内塔尼亚胡从小就明白如何利用这一点。
Whether you believe it's likely Netanyahu said to Trump, you will be recorded by history as the man who saved the Jews. This is on the positive side and on the negative side is you do not want to be recorded as the one that under his God and in his shift, something so awful like the second Holocaust happened to the Jews. There are two sides to this moon, the dark one and one a bit more illuminated. Typically, you speak about the lidon side of the moon. I mean, in dark rooms, you speak about the dark side.
不管你是否相信，内塔尼亚胡可能对特朗普说过：“历史会记住你是拯救犹太人的英雄。” 这是积极的一面。而消极的一面是：“你不希望被记录为在你的领导下发生了像第二次大屠杀一样恐怖的事情，那样你的名字将被历史所鄙视。” 这就像月亮有两面，一面是明亮的，另一面是黑暗的。一般来说，人们谈论的更多是月亮明亮的一面，而在阴暗的房间里，人们才会谈论黑暗的一面。
We are under permanent threat. Save us. You said a minute ago that what the Israeli government has done in Gaza has permanently or at least for the moment made Israel into a prior state internationally. How has Gaza seen within Israel? In order to touch such a volatile issue, I need a very brief introduction to offer you my own framing of this last couple of years. Whatever Israel did to the Palestinians, since day 100 years ago, all the wrongdoings that transferred the expel the demolition of 400, 500 communities, the knock by the tragedy, the catastrophe of the Palestinians, whatever we done to them, all wrongdoings does not justify the first step in the first step towards atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7. I agree. None. Right. Whatever Hamas did on October 7 to the Israelis, brutal, awful crimes against humanity in the bodies of my friends and my colleagues and my fellow citizens, whatever the Hamas did to us does not justify the moral crimes and maybe even crimes against humanity that Israel exercises in Gaza ever since.
我们面临着持续的威胁。拯救我们。你刚才提到，以色列政府在加沙的行动已经使以色列在国际上变成一个优先关注的国家，无论是永久的还是暂时的。加沙问题在以色列国内是如何被看待的？为了触及这样一个敏感的问题，我需要给你一个简短的背景介绍，以便提供我对过去几年情况的看法。无论以色列在过去100年来对巴勒斯坦人做了什么，不论是驱逐、拆毁400或500个社区，还是带来的灾难，这些错误都不能为哈马斯在10月7日对以色列的暴行开脱。没错，无论哈马斯在10月7日对以色列人做了什么，都是残忍的、可怕的反人类罪行，无论事情发生在我朋友、同事和同胞的身上，这也并不能为以色列自那以后在加沙所采取的可能是道德上的罪行甚至反人类罪行开脱。
You have two crimes scenes. You do not annihilate each other, do not balance each other, do not justify each other. You have to deal with Hamas crimes and with the Israeli crimes simultaneously as difficult as it is and sometimes as paradoxically as it is. Now this is how I see it. Most of Israelis are not in my place. Most of Israelis, regardless of October 7, I mean even much before October 7, do not really know where Gaza is. Yes, it might be five minutes away from a doorstep. It might be 40 minutes drive from Tel Aviv, but it's beyond the mountains of darkness. I do not know where is it. I haven't been there ever. When you look at the Israeli media up until October 7 and 10 times more after October 7, you never see Gaza and people. You see tunnels, you see cement, you see rockets, you see demolitions, you see Hamas troops running here and there. You never see the individual Gaza and people as if there are no people there.
你有两个犯罪现场。你不能用一个来消灭另一个，不能互相抵消，也不能相互辩护。无论多么困难或多么矛盾，你都必须同时处理哈马斯的罪行和以色列的罪行。我就是这样看的。大多数以色列人并没有和我一样的看法。大多数以色列人，即使是在10月7日之前，也并不知道加沙在哪里。是的，它可能离家只有五分钟的路程，可能离特拉维夫有40分钟的车程，但它好像在黑暗的山脉那边。我不知道它在哪里，我从没去过那里。看看以色列媒体，直到10月7日前和10月7日之后都一样，你从未见过加沙和那里的人民。你看到的是隧道、水泥、火箭弹、拆迁行动，以及哈马斯的军人在跑来跑去。你从未见到加沙的个人或民众，仿佛那里根本没有人。
And the report is never about the humanitarian side of it. The report is always about insurgences, terrorists, etc. Gaza as the hopefully expressed by my president Herzog said in Gaza that no innocent people. Not forbid to live in such a situation that you do not believe there are no innocent people there other side. Even Abraham, the Patrick believed that in Solomon Gomorrah, the innocent people and God negotiated with him. But we are better than God and we are worse than Abraham, which simply right off any innocent in Gaza. And ever since he did not improve. So in a way, Gaza, it's not a blind spot. Blind spot is too technical. Gaza is the moral abyss in which Israel collapsed into.
这个报告从来不涉及人道主义方面。报告总是关于叛乱、恐怖分子等。我总统赫尔佐格在加沙讲到，希望能表达这样一种观点：在加沙，没有无辜的人。不能容忍生活在这样一种你不相信有无辜者的环境中。即使是亚伯拉罕，在所多玛和蛾摩拉，也相信有无辜者，并且与上帝交涉。但如今我们比上帝更自负，比亚伯拉罕更糟，轻易地抹去加沙任何无辜者的存在。从那以后，情况没有好转。所以加沙不是盲点，盲点太过技术化。加沙是一个道德深渊，以色列已深陷其中。
I find it so striking what you just said because Israel is such an international country. I mean, I don't know what percentage of the population was born somewhere else and people always in and out of Israel. I mean, it's hardly and it's not central Africa. It's right in the Mediterranean. It's very international, as I said. So it's interesting that many Israelis don't have a sense of what's happening just right at their southern border. What do they think when they read about it? There's so much international controversy about it. When you pull up the internet, someone's getting mad about Gaza, how do Israelis respond to that? You put here two topics. The first is media report. Yes. Media. And the second one is, where is the existential reality of Israelis? Whom are we? When she asked you the economist editor, the right to exist.
我觉得你刚才说的话很有意思，因为以色列是一个非常国际化的国家。我是说，我不太清楚有多少人口是在别的地方出生的，人们经常进出以色列。这不是中非，不是偏远地区，而是在地中海的中心地带，正如我说的，非常国际化。所以很有趣的一点是，许多以色列人对自己南部边界正在发生的事情没有什么概念。当他们读到相关报道时，会有什么想法呢？关于这件事有太多的国际争议。当你上网时，总有人在对加沙问题发火，那么以色列人对此有什么反应呢？这里有两个主题。第一个是媒体报道，是的，媒体。第二个是，以色列人的生存现实是什么？我们是谁？当经济学人编辑问你是否有存在的权利。
When you're exploded, what is that right to exist? And I said to myself, Tucker, don't get mad at her. The question is a different one. The right to exist from the point of view of being a Jew, not from being part of the international community. Is Israel justified according to the norms it tells itself it is? The only democracy in the Middle East, the most moral army in the world, etc., etc. There it implodes. Now let me try to answer your question. First about the international reports. Most of us listen to Hebrew media only and read Hebrew media only. And the Hebrew media filters most of the non-Hebrew expressions. We do not speak English. I mean, even listen to me with my Arnold Schwarzenegger accent. Okay? I mean, we don't speak English. On par par fancy. Okay. We don't speak German.
当你被爆炸时，还谈什么生存权呢？我告诉自己，塔克，不要对她生气。问题应该换个角度来看。从作为犹太人的视角，而不是从国际社会的一部分来看，生存权是什么？以色列是否按照它自认为的标准是合理存在的？中东唯一的民主国家，世界上最有道德的军队，等等。但是在这些标准下，问题就变得复杂了。现在我来尝试回答你的问题。首先谈国际报道。我们大多数人只听希伯来语媒体，只读希伯来语媒体。而希伯来语媒体过滤了大部分非希伯来语的声音。我们不讲英语，比如我就带着阿诺德·施瓦辛格的口音。我是说，我们不讲那种华丽的英文。我们也不讲德语。
And if we read something about it, they're all anti-Semites. And the weaponizing of anti-Semitism into a kind of a thick filter that enables us to reject any kind of legitimate criticism is part of the system here. So media wise, we hardly hear the international situation, hardly hear it. The question of what does that mean to us? I will say as follows, up until the Second World War, 90% of the Jews in the world were Christian-born Jews, what we call Ashkenazi. And 10% were born in the Muslim sphere, what we call Faradim. So it was 90% Christian-world Jews and 10% Muslim-world Jews. They in Israel, it is 50-50, which means the old perception that Israel is an offspring of the West, of the Christian Dom, demographically doesn't work. Because at least half of the Israeli Jews is not to talk about it, 20% of Palestinians with Israeli idea.
如果我们读到关于这个话题的内容，他们都会被贴上“反犹太主义者”的标签。把反犹太主义作为一种武器，形成一种厚重的过滤器，使我们可以拒绝任何形式的正当批评，这成为了系统的一部分。因此，从媒体角度来看，我们几乎听不到国际局势的真实声音，这几乎没有被提及。问题是，这对我们意味着什么？我可以这样说，直到第二次世界大战之前，全球90%的犹太人是出生于基督教世界的犹太人，我们称之为阿什肯纳齐犹太人。10%是出生在穆斯林世界的犹太人，我们称之为塞法迪犹太人。所以在当时是90%来自基督教世界，10%来自穆斯林世界。现在在以色列，这一比例变成了50%对50%，这意味着以色列是西方国家，即基督教世界的一个分支这一旧有观念在人口组成上是行不通的。因为至少一半的以色列犹太人不属于这个群体，而且还没有谈到占20%的拥有以色列身份证的巴勒斯坦人。
But from the 80% Jews, 50% were born or offspring of Muslim-world Jewry, which do not share the same legacy and the same heritage and the same tradition that Jews should with you, which is the evolution of the West. I'll take it a step further. Yes, many of us were born in so many other places, our parents or grandparents. But most of us were born here. And here is a very strange place. On one hand we're not Europe anymore, because we got disconnected. And on the other hand, we never got connected to the region. So we kind of stand alone island. Totally disconnected from the region, refusing to get connected. When normalization was offered to us only two, three years ago, it was a threat. We never dwelled into the strategy.
翻译成中文：但是在那80%的犹太人中，有50%是出生于或是穆斯林世界犹太人的后代，他们不具备你所认为的犹太人应该具备的同样的遗产和传统，这些遗产和传统是西方演变的结果。我再进一步解释一下。是的，我们很多人是在其他地方出生的，可能是我们的父母或祖父母。但是我们大多数人是在这里出生的。而这里是个非常奇怪的地方。一方面，我们不再是欧洲的一部分，因为我们已经与之脱节。而另一方面，我们从未与这个地区建立联系。所以我们就像一个孤立的小岛，完全与周围环境隔绝，并且拒绝建立联系。当两三年前有人向我们提议建立正常化关系时，我们视其为威胁。我们从未探究过这一策略。
What should be our relationship with the region? So much so that in a way we resemble a lot the kingdom of Jerusalem of the Crusades, foreigners coming from the outside, circling ourselves with a kind of a self-seed wars, and never integrated. It is not right because there were interaction between the regional Muslims at the time and the Christians at the time. But nonetheless, the kingdom is a political entity never wanted to be part of the region after 200 years. The state of Israel born out of the ashes of the Holocaust for sure, but earlier on was born out of the nation state idea of getting secular Europe with its solutions to its national groupings, came to the Middle East, which is not part of the nation state thinking, didn't go through the processes of secularization and revolutions, the industrial revolution, the French revolution, the American revolution, the British revolution never went through them in order to get where we are today and therefore didn't find any hooks to get connected.
我们应该如何与这个地区建立关系？在某种程度上，我们和十字军东征时期的耶路撒冷王国很相似：外来的外国人，自我封闭于一场场“自种”的战争中，未能真正融入。这种看法并不完全正确，因为当时的穆斯林与基督徒之间确实存在互动。然而，那个王国政治上从未想成为这个地区的一部分，历经200年都未改变。以色列国的诞生，固然是从大屠杀的灰烬中重生，但更早是源于欧洲民族国家的理念——带着欧式的解决方案来到中东，这个地区不是基于民族国家的思维，也没有经历世俗化、工业革命、法国大革命、美国革命和英国革命等进程。因此，以色列未能找到与中东地区的连接点。
So we lost our Western inter-land and we never ceded enough in order to grow to be part of the local fauna. So we are isolated. I think many, I don't know what they think now, but for most of my life in the US many Americans regarded Israel as a kind of European-ish country, that was always my opinion. Some of them felt that Israel was almost part of the United States, not in a sinister way, but we've got so much in common, 51st state, Golden Mayor, I think was from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She grew up in Milwaukee, right? Okay. As they used to say, the time the woman who made me walk it famous. See, smoke Chesterfield, cigarettes, American cigarettes. I mean, it felt very American.
所以，我们失去了西方的内陆，并且从未付出足够的代价以融入当地的环境。所以我们是孤立的。我觉得很多——我不知道他们现在怎么想，但在我大部分生活在美国的时间里，许多美国人把以色列看作是一种类似欧洲的国家，这一直是我的看法。有些人认为以色列几乎是美国的一部分，不是什么阴谋论，而是因为我们有太多的共同点，就像第51个州一样。歌尔达·梅厄，我想，她是来自威斯康星州密尔沃基的。她是在密尔沃基长大的，对吗？就像他们常说的，“那个让密尔沃基出名的女人”。她抽的是Chesterfield，美国香烟。我是说，这感觉非常美国化。
What is the view would you say of most Israelis now toward the United States? We love it, we admire it. We want to be to move there and we think you're so childish and naive. Why? Because this is what you are. Okay. Let it you. I mean, I'm not sure I would disagree with you at all, but what about American strikes as Israelis as childish and naive? Israel is, let's begin with a smile because it's a heavy stuff, okay? You know why we Israelis do not make love in the street? Because then everybody will come and give you advises. Here everybody is a prime minister, everybody is a diplomat, everybody is a strategist, everybody is Taka Kalson, everybody is everything, everybody is Napoleon. We know better. And when we think about first begin with the West in general, okay?
大多数以色列人现在对美国的看法是什么？我们热爱它，我们欣赏它。我们想搬到那里，同时觉得你们有些孩子气和天真。为什么？因为这就是你们的样子。我不确定我是否完全不同意这种看法，但是什么让美国在以色列人眼中显得孩子气和天真呢？以色列，我们首先微笑一下，因为这是个比较沉重的话题，好吗？你知道为什么我们以色列人不会在街上亲热吗？因为这样每个人都会过来给你提意见。在这里，每个人都是总理，都是外交官，都是战略家，每个人都是塔克·卡尔森，每个人都是一切，每个人都是拿破仑。我们自以为知道得更多。当我们想到西方时，就从这里开始吧。
How don't you understand that immigration brings you down, that you compromise your own very existence? How don't you understand that the Muslim title wave of immigration is going to compromise your very entity? Live a side, I don't think that many Israelis understand the exchange theology, okay? I'm not at all sure that they're exchange theory. But speaking, generally speaking, you ask Israelis, how many Muslims you think they are in Europe? Something between 30 to 50 percent, which is far away from the numbers. So what do you think about America? What do you think in America? Oh wow, wow, wow. What do you know Michigan in the last elections just show us how big is the Muslim minority? Obama? Hussein Obama. So you don't understand your own reality, so to say. This is the kind of the experience everybody gives advises, Israeli reality, uh, uh, at a daily.
你怎么不明白，移民会拖累你，让你妥协自己的生存？你怎么不明白，大规模的穆斯林移民潮将会影响你的存在？我不认为很多以色列人理解"交换神学"。一般来说，如果你问以色列人，他们认为欧洲有多少穆斯林，他们可能会说30%到50%，但这和实际数字相差很大。那么你对美国的看法呢？如果在美国说起这些问题，人们的反应会很惊讶。你知道吗，密歇根州在最近的选举中显示了穆斯林少数族裔的规模有多大？奥巴马？休斯·奥巴马。所以，你对自己的现实不够了解。这就是大家每天对以色列现实发表意见的情况。
The second is it's very, very difficult for us, very difficult for us to understand the furnace of the game. If you ask me, what does that mean to be an American? I can give you five different answers. One of them is since you have a constitution and everybody is equal in front of the constitution or supposed to be equal in front of the constitution, there is a furnace in the game. You cannot trick me, you cannot look down at me, you cannot abuse me, I cannot abuse you on the other hand. We don't understand it. We Israelis will live in a reality that constitution is a threat. Equality to all citizens, not just Jews and Arabs. But for the sake of it, Orthodox and unorthodox is a threat to the very existence of the state. So on one hand, as if we have shared value foundations, but when you try to translate these values into practical reality, here, the gap grows, we cannot accept, we cannot accept the American wall of separation between church and state.
第二点是，对于我们来说，非常非常难以理解游戏的“公平性”。如果你问我，作为一个美国人意味着什么？我可以给出五种不同的答案。其中之一是你们有宪法，所有人在宪法面前都是平等的，或者说应该是平等的，这就带来了游戏中的“公平性”。你不能欺骗我，不能看不起我，不能虐待我，同样我也不能虐待你。然而，这一点我们并不理解。我们以色列人生活在一个宪法被视为威胁的现实中。对所有公民的平等，不仅是犹太人和阿拉伯人之间的平等，还有正统与非正统之间的平等，这被视为国家存在的威胁。因此，一方面，我们似乎有共同的价值基础，但当你尝试将这些价值转化为实践时，差距就出现了。我们无法接受美国的政教分离原则。
It is a difficult force. As much as the definition of Jewish and democratic is hollow in a good day and the sieving in an average day, it is a stupid definition, but we believe it is possible. And we cannot accept it that you are not Christian and democratic, you are democratic first. Ah, only democracy, the weak not for us. And then I will take it to maybe to the last stage. We don't care, we hardly care, unfortunately, and it pains me about American jewelry. When Netanyahu said a couple of years ago, that democracy, they don't support my position anyway. Let's go with the Christian Zionist. This is our political backbone, the best friends we have.
这是一种复杂的力量。在理想的情况下，“犹太”和“民主”的定义已经很空洞，在一般情况下更是如此。这是一个愚蠢的定义，但我们相信它是可能的。我们不能接受的是，你不能不是基督徒却仍然是民主的，你首先应该是民主的。啊，只有民主，对我们来说太软弱。然后，我可能会把它推到最后一步。不幸的是，我们几乎不在乎美国的犹太人，这让我感到痛心。几年前，当内塔尼亚胡说民主时，他们无论如何都不支持我的立场。让我们转向基督教锡安主义者。他们是我们的政治支柱，是我们最好的朋友。
And giving up on American jewelry, besides many other things that we don't respect them when it comes to the law of return, when it comes to accepting their reform and conservative movement, religious expression, which is totally rejected by the religious establishment in Israel, etc., etc. And we look at America, we see two things and we don't accept both. On one hand, we see as if this is the total definer, the absolute definer of the democratic movement, the woks. All Democrats are woks. You know, the other hand, all the right wingers are hating Jews like Takakawson. That's it. So in between, what's in it for us? Okay, Silicon Valley, technology, economy, profit, but not the values, not anymore.
放弃美国珠宝，同时还有很多其他东西，因为我们在一些方面不尊重他们，比如归还法、接受他们的改革和保守派宗教表达等。这些在以色列的宗教机构中完全不被接受等等。当我们看美国时，我们看到两件事，而且我们都无法接受。一方面，我们视其为民主运动的绝对定义者，所有的民主党人都是激进进步派。另一方面，认为所有右翼分子都像塔克·卡尔森一样憎恨犹太人。那么，对于我们而言，中间还有什么呢？好吧，硅谷、技术、经济、利润，但是价值观，不再有了。
Is this a religious war from the Israeli perspective or from the Orthodox Israeli perspective? This one in with Iran. No, I'll be. Never defined this way. Officially, I will say it's the second me personally who observed the situation and tried to intellectualize it in order to comprehend. I will say it's the second stage of religious war. It's worth sense. Up until October 7th, the conflict between us and Palestinians, which is bloody and malicious and an awful, especially awful because it could have been resolved so many times before. Was a political conflict between two national communities? So political conflicts and national conflicts, as difficult as it is, we know what to do with that.
从以色列的角度来看，这是一场宗教战争吗？或者说从以色列正统派的角度来看呢？与伊朗的这场冲突，不，我会说从官方角度不会这样定义。但我个人观察并试图理性分析后，会认为这是宗教战争的第二阶段。在某种意义上，从10月7日之前，我们和巴勒斯坦人之间的冲突，是血腥且恶意的，尤其令人痛心，因为这种冲突本可以多次得到解决。这是两个民族之间的政治冲突。虽然政治冲突和民族冲突很艰难，但我们知道如何处理这些问题。
October 7th was the first round of the full-scale religious war. Jewish fundamentalism at the Israeli government and Muslim fundamentalism at the Hamas government. And the philosophy of Hamas and the ideology of the Israeli government and some of its leading ministers was out in the open. With rabbis and Chaplains in the army and ministers and members of Knesset expressing it loud and clear. So October 7th was the first chapter of the deterioration of the political conflict into a religious one. This one in Iran, which is three years later, which historically speaking, is maybe the same period. It is so fast. I mean, what is it three years in human history? It's not even a karma.
10月7日，全面宗教战争的第一轮展开。以色列政府的犹太原教旨主义和哈马斯政府的穆斯林原教旨主义对立显现。哈马斯的哲学和以色列政府及其一些主要部长的意识形态都公开展示出来，军队中的拉比和牧师，以及政府部长和议会议员明确地表达了这种观点。因此，10月7日标志着政治冲突向宗教冲突恶化的第一章。在伊朗的这一发展是在三年后，从历史角度来看，可能是同一个时期。这个速度太快了，毕竟在整个人类历史上，三年算不了什么。
Yes. Yet when you live it day in and day out, it's difficult. It's heavy. It's sirens. It keeps not sleeping. It's sleepless nights and fear. But it's a different one. The war in Iran now, for my point of view, is the first religious fundamentalist war, world war. Jewish fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism and Jewish fundamentalism at the battle at the battle that I've filled. It feels that way. And it feels that way to me watching this. That's exactly what it feels like.
是的。然而，当你每天都生活在其中时，这并不容易。这是沉重的、刺耳的警报声。这让人无法安眠，是不眠之夜和恐惧。但这一次有所不同。从我的角度来看，现在伊朗的战争是世界上第一次宗教原教旨主义的战争。犹太原教旨主义、基督教原教旨主义和伊斯兰原教旨主义在这场战斗中交织在一起。我感受到了这种氛围，看着这一切，我确实有这样的感觉。
And the problem of you and me as much as I take it at a few many other things, we are other sides of the other side of the street on something like that, which is such an existential problem to our ideologies and our identities and our values. Never mind where are you in the other conf, in the other disagreements between us. We are watching. We are just watching. We didn't yet come forward and offered an alternative, a comprehensive, attractive, spiritual and political, ideological and maybe even a scatological alternative that fights them.
你我之间的问题，以及我在许多其他事情上的看法其实也类似于这个问题。我们就像站在街道的两边，这对我们的意识形态、身份认同和价值观来说是个深刻的存在性问题。至于我们之间其他的分歧，就暂且不提了。我们只是旁观者。我们还没有提出一种能够与他们对抗的，全面、有吸引力的、既具精神性又具政治性和意识形态，甚至可能是社会性的新方案。
I ask myself with a shame, I cannot tell you how much. We didn't yet open the chapter of what Jewish settlers are doing in the occupied territories in the West Bank. Daily crimes against innocent Palestinians conducted by wild, savage settlers ignored by the army and by police and supported by members of Knesset and members of the cabinet. Daily. Ah, I'm full of shame. But the utmost one is where the heck are the rabbis? Where are the spiritual leaders? They are not coming because they are the insiders, because they are behind it, because they support it, because they promote it, because they promote the Messianic ends of the day, a scatological philosophy.
我满怀羞愧地问自己，但我无法告诉你有多么羞愧。我们还没有开始讨论犹太定居者在西岸被占领土上所做的事情。这些定居者每天对无辜的巴勒斯坦人进行罪行，而军队和警察对此视而不见，甚至一些议会和内阁成员还支持这些行为。每天都是这样。我充满了羞愧。但最让我无法理解的是，拉比们在哪里？那些精神领袖们在哪里？他们之所以没有出现，是因为他们是这些行为的鼓动者，他们背后支持并推动这些行为，因为他们支持并推动末世论哲学。
And this is, as I said earlier, where classical Judaism implodes into Israeliness. How important is the rebuilding of the temple to the people you're describing to the cabinet ministers, to the rabbis who are not speaking up against what's happening in the occupied territories? Is there actually an effort to do that, do you believe? For the people in the streets, not the rabbis, not the people engaged, not those you ask question about, to the masses, it's an uneasier. I figured that. It is a sort of a Disney world in Orlando. Do they have whatever you like? Just give us a break, okay? So for the masses, they are not there.
正如我之前提到的，这正是传统犹太教在以色列的表现方式。你所描述的人们，对内阁部长以及在被占领土上发生的事情上保持沉默的拉比们来说，重建圣殿到底有多重要呢？你认为他们真的在努力推进这件事吗？对于普通民众来说，而不是那些拉比或参与其中的人，那些你提问过的人来说，这个问题并不容易回答。我明白了。这有点像奥兰多的迪士尼乐园。他们可以随心所欲，只要给我们一点喘息的空间就好。因此，对大众而言，他们并不关心这些事情。
On the other hand, since 1967, at least five, I'm not at all sure that not more. But at least five attempts to remove the mosques from the temple mount were done by these groupings, since 1967. Which means that when you come to address this question, it is not so much about the numbers who support the removal of the temples and the removal of the mosques and the rebuilt of the temples. It is about the dedication and the readiness and the fanaticism of those who are ready to act. Let me just say, I'm embarrassed.
另一方面，自1967年以来，至少有五次尝试想要从圣殿山上移除清真寺。我不太确定是否有更多的尝试，但至少有五次。这意味着，当你谈论这个问题时，关键不是有多少人支持拆除清真寺和重建圣殿，而是那些准备行动的人有多执着和狂热。我只是想说，我感到很尴尬。
I did not know there had been five attempts to get rid of the dominoe of the rock and al-Aqsa. So these were plots to blow them up. Is that what happened? Yep. Huh? Yep. What happened to the perpetrators, to the plotters? The most famous one is the 80s, what is called the Jewish Underground. A group of settlers from the same educational system that I grew up, that I was brought up on. Some of them are friends and friends of families and people from the same school I went and said, I mean, really like me people.
我不知道以前有过五次企图摧毁岩石圆顶清真寺和阿克萨清真寺的事件。也就是说，这些人曾计划炸毁它们。这是事实吗？是的。嗯？是的。那么，那些策划者后来怎么样了？最著名的一次是80年代的“犹太地下组织”事件。这个组织由一群定居者组成，他们接受的教育体系与我成长过程中接受的一样。其中有些人是我朋友，或者是我家人的朋友，还有和我上过同一所学校的人，真的就像是我身边的人。
Yes. Who were caught, sentenced, sent to jail and got a political deal a couple of months or two years later and few of them, if not many of them, became prominent. And Israeli figures, one of the most important newspaper editor in Israel, Makorishon, advisors to ministers, members of Knesset. You name it. Well received back into society, not excommunicated and not excluded, not excluded, not excluded. So much so that today sits in jail for life. You got a meal, assassinate as the prime minister and their constant voices, even within the Knesset, even within the government and the Netanyahu's coalition, calling for his release.
是的。他们中一些人被抓住、判刑、送进监狱，但在几个月或两年后，通过政治交易获释。其中不少人成为了知名人物，比如以色列的重要人物，包括以色列最重要的报纸之一《Makorishon》的编辑、部长顾问、议会议员等等。他们回归社会时受到欢迎，没有被排斥、没有被排除、没有被排斥。这一情况甚至影响到如今这个被判终身监禁的刺杀总理的人，还有许多声音，包括在议会内部、政府内部，甚至在内塔尼亚胡的联盟中，都在呼吁释放他。
So as for your question, what is the support? The supporting the public is very small. The dedication of the few is very intensive. What would happen if the Alexa complex were destroyed? I don't talk her. Let's move on. That's how I feel, but I mean, I don't live there. You do. You see that as a profound change in world history if that were to happen. I'm not at all sure that we are not already into this profound change. Yes.
对于您的问题，什么是支持？公众的支持非常少。少数人的投入非常强烈。如果Alexa大楼被摧毁，会发生什么？我不想谈她。我们继续吧。这就是我的感受，不过，我的意思是，我不住在那里。你住在那里。如果这件事发生，你会认为这是世界历史上的重大变化。我不敢确定我们是否已经进入了这个深刻的变化。是的。
Like this war with Iran, combined with October 7th, combined with other things, we're in the middle of a transformation of world order. And what next order or this order neither you know me now. And maybe we don't share the same vision or what should it be. But we in the middle of a transformation here. Now this issue of the temple, the issue of the masks will be morally speaking.
就像这场与伊朗的战争，加上10月7日发生的事情，以及其他因素，我们正处于一个世界秩序变革的中间阶段。关于未来的秩序或无序状态，可能你我现在都不清楚。也许我们对未来的愿景不统一。但我们确实处于变化之中。至于圣殿和面具的问题，这将是一个道德层面上的议题。
The coin with two sides, on the Israeli side, even when this will happen, God forbid. That will be the end of justification of the existence of the state of Israel. And if this God forbid will happen, I'm afraid it will trigger the masses all over the Muslim world that this might topple down few regimes and bring to power different powers and different regimes. The entire world order, the way we knew it, will not be recognized by us anymore. It is much more than volatile and explosive than in Yukk. Yes. That is certainly my read on it. I don't think you're overstating it. Of course, no one can predict the future. But that seems very likely. Do you think my other sense, again, I'll allow you to have the more definitive word on it. But is that if there was ever a time it could happen, it's right now in the middle of this war.
硬币有两面，就以色列方面来看，即便发生这样的事（但愿不会发生），那将意味着以色列国家存在的正当性终结。如果这种不幸发生，我担心这会在整个穆斯林世界引发群众动荡，可能推翻一些政权，带来不同的势力和政权上台。我们所熟悉的整个世界秩序将不再被我们所识别。这比以前的任何动荡时期都更加不稳定和危险。我对此的看法与此一致，我并不认为你过于夸张。当然，没有人能准确预测未来，但这似乎非常可能。你觉得我这种感觉，虽然我让你有更决定性的看法，但如果这种事情发生的话，现在正是在这场战争中段最有可能的时机。
The only thing I will say is that I hope that the attention of the Prime Minister is given to that also. Yes. That's the only hope I have. I trust him. My trust is very minimal. And this is in a very good day. I hope that he understands if something like that happens in his shift, it's bigger than him. Yes. And I hope he pays attention to it. I feel the same way about him, but I agree with you. I don't see why he would want this. Here we go to something else. Menanyahu is a well-read person. He's not an alphabet. He reads books, he understands. He knows. He has a vision. You can agree with him. You can disagree with him, but at least he's an interesting part.
我只想说，我希望首相能够关注这一点。是的，这是我唯一的期望。我信任他，虽然信任很有限。这是在非常好的情况下说的。我希望他明白，如果这种事情在他的任期内发生，那比他个人还要重要。是的，我希望他能注意到这一点。关于他，我有同样的感觉，但我同意你的看法。我不明白他为什么会想要这样。让我们换个话题。内塔尼亚胡是一个博学的人，他不是目不识丁。他阅读书籍，理解事物，并且有远见。你可以同意他的观点，也可以不同意，但至少他是一个有趣的人。
He knows what he's talking about. What happens to him in the last couple of years is that he does not behave politically according to his wisdom. He behaves according to his political survival instinct rather than according to his ideology and philosophy. So between political survival or conservative right wing, decent right wing conservativism, if he was the right wing conservative, I would say, I will oppose you, but I respect you. The minute it's the personal survival instinct only, I don't accept it and I don't respect it and I suspect it. And the fact that in his cabinet, there are so many influential ministers who promote this agenda and create daily provocation around the masks, troubles me.
他知道自己在说什么。但在过去几年中，他的行为与他的智慧并不吻合。他是依据自己的政治生存本能行事，而不是根据自己的意识形态和哲学。因此，在政治生存和保守的右翼思想之间，如果他是个正派的右翼保守主义者，我会说，我反对你，但我尊重你。然而，一旦他的行为仅仅是出于个人生存本能，我就无法接受，也不尊重，并且表示怀疑。此外，他的内阁中有很多有影响力的部长推动这种议程，并且在口罩问题上每天制造挑衅，这让我感到不安。
I take you a step further. How many times did you in your analysis say, listen, there are so many fanatics in politics etc. etc. but the Israeli army is a moderate one. They are usually the sound of reason. Okay, this is the perception we have. But pay attention. Most of the generals and the high up officers of today are people who were brought up, educated, and molded at the previous times of Israel under a being under Paris under Menachembegin even under Ariel Sharon in a much more responsible country. The people who climb up now the letter, the military letter, a different kind of people who were brought up under the chaotic problematic value system of Netanyahu in the settlements educated with this kind of Messianic mission to use the army as a tool to accelerate redemption and they will come that you will see a chief of staff with this kind of agenda.
我带你更进一步。在你的分析中，你多次是否曾说过，现在的政治中有太多狂热分子等等，但以色列军队是温和的，一直都是理性的声音。好吧，这是我们的看法。但请注意，如今的大多数将军和高级军官都是在以色列以前的时代成长和接受教育的，那时是更负责的国家，领导人包括佩雷斯、梅纳赫姆·贝京，甚至是阿里埃勒·沙龙。而现在晋升军阶的人，是在内塔尼亚胡的混乱价值体系下成长的人，他们在定居点受教育，怀着利用军队加速实现救世使命的信念。有一天你会看到参谋长带着这种议程出现。
You already have the head of the shin bat of our secret service coming from these circles. So to trust the Israeli army, to be the moderator for good might be a mistake. Pay attention. Things have changed so fast there. I mean, from an outsider's perspective, it's just a very different country from what it was even 15 years ago. That's how it feels to me. It is right. In order to understand the shift, our says follows, when was your first time here in the region? 25 years ago. Make me the 2000th. Yeah. Okay. 2000 was the end of the tale of secular Israel.
你们的情报机构领导人已经来自这些圈子。因此，信任以色列军队充当良好的调停者可能是个错误。要注意，那里变化得非常快。从外人的角度来看，现在的以色列和15年前大不相同。我是这样感觉的。这是对的。为了理解这种转变，我们可以这样说，您第一次来到这个地区是什么时候？是25年前，也就是2000年。2000年是世俗化以色列的尾声。
Israel of 48 was as Bernie Sanders called it socialist, but let's call it European wise social and democratic. A very young democracy, but with the prospect to move on for a better, more developed democracy and very secular. Israel of today is democracy in deficit in a good day. Harsh capitalist to the level of libertarian Anarchy almost sometimes. And very religious. So Israel of 2026 is not Israel of 48, not Israel of 67 and not Israel of 2000s. Different society, different leadership, different different rhetoric, different ethos and pathos.
1948年的以色列，如伯尼·桑德斯所称，是社会主义的，但我们可以说它是欧洲风格的社会和民主体制。这是一个非常年轻的民主国家，但有着发展的前景，希望能成为一个更加完善的民主国家，并且非常世俗。如今的以色列，即便是在好的情况下，其民主制度也存在缺陷。资本主义非常严酷，有时几乎接近自由放任的无政府主义。同时，非常宗教化。因此，2026年的以色列并不是1948年的以色列，不是1967年的以色列，也不是2000年代的以色列。它是一个不同的社会，有不同的领导层、不同的言论风格、不同的精神与情感。
And the real struggle today between the political forces, yes, it's very personal. My personality, your personality, my leader, your leader. Okay. Granted, we have it in every political system. Imagine politics with no ego. So boring. Okay, God forbid. So thank God we have some ego left. But the the undercurrent is the warming called war between religion and politics. Between the Jewish and the democratic. That's the real deep struggle. And Israel by the end of the road will be Jewish religious that their religion is defined by this kind of people. Or will it be back a kind of a liberal democracy?
当今政治力量之间的真正斗争，确实非常个人化。我的人格，你的人格；我的领袖，你的领袖。好的，没错，每个政治体系中都有这种现象。想象一下没有自我的政治，那样太无趣了。上帝保佑，所以感谢上帝我们还有一些自我。但潜在的冲突是宗教和政治之间的冷战，是犹太性与民主性之间的斗争。这才是真正深层次的斗争。以色列最终会成为一个由这些人定义的犹太宗教国家，还是会回归到一种自由民主的状态？
And let's not argue now what is the definition of this liberal democracy, but much more secular in a thinking and therefore speaks with the language of reason. This is the real political struggle in Israel today. I'm hopeful by the way, as difficult as it is, the pendulum will come back. But we have to understand what the fight is all about. Do you think given Israel's moves since this war in the last month, right, both in West Bank and in Lebanon? Do you think that Israel will have different borders by the end of it? We'll control more territory by the end of this. As much as there are enough people who buy into your suspicion that we want Israel from the Euphrates to the to the nine. This is actually your question, right? How real is the greater Israel project? It's just hard to know. It looks real, but I don't know.
现在我们不讨论自由民主的定义，而更强调一种理性思维的世俗化表达。这正是以色列今天的真正政治斗争。我虽然乐观，但也意识到这很困难，钟摆会回来的。但我们必须理解斗争的本质。考虑到以色列在过去一个月战争以来在约旦河西岸和黎巴嫩的动作，你认为以色列的边界会在战争结束后发生变化吗？会控制更多的领土吗？尽管有很多人持怀疑态度，认为我们希望以色列从幼发拉底河到尼罗河。这实际上是你的问题，对吗？大以色列计划有多现实？很难说，虽然看起来真实，但我也不确定。
No, I just wanted to show you that I listened to you. Yes. Okay. It was just I'm just quote, I'm just quote, the Torah. That's it. Yeah. Okay. So as much as there are these elements, which are the same elements that were behind the killing of its Haka be and the underground to remove the mosques and those who harass the Palestinians now. That's it. I do not believe that in any future that both of us will be part of it, Israel will have any legal and legitimate borders, but the 48, 49, 67 borders. There will be so many attempts. There will be so many provocations. There will be so many manipulations by all of these people. It will never work so much so that are also allheartedly believed that some were by the end of the process. Most of the settlements and the settlers from the West Bank would be removed as well.
不，我只是想让你知道我在听你说话。是的。好的。我只是在引用《托拉》（犹太教经典），仅此而已。嗯，是的。正如同样的因素曾经导致伊扎克·拉宾被杀以及地下组织试图拆除清真寺和骚扰巴勒斯坦人的那些情况存在一样。我不认为在我们共同经历的任何未来中，以色列会有除了1948、1949、1967年划定的边界以外的合法和公认的边界。将会有许多尝试和挑衅，这些人会进行各种操控，但最终都不会成功。我也全心相信在这个过程中，大部分来自西岸的定居点和定居者最终也会被撤离。
Yeah. That's not the trend that we see from this vantage. Why would you predict that? Well, most of Israel want to have good life. As much as Netanyahu came with his prophetic vision of super sparta, we still prefer Athens. Okay. No, because of the suvlaki, because of the Halu mi, because of whatever we prefer, we prefer affin, what prefers Athens, disbarta, of course. You see. As much as the democracy in Athens was a little bit, how shall we put it? Not updated. Yes. Okay. The original version was a little bit limited. But yet the vision of Athens as the place of aesthetics and philosophy and wisdom and reason and democracy, the seas of Western democracy, most Israelis would like to have good life.
好的。从这个角度来看，我们并没有看到这样的趋势。你为什么会这样预测呢？嗯，大多数以色列人希望过上美好的生活。尽管内塔尼亚胡带来了他关于超级斯巴达的先知愿景，但我们仍然更喜欢雅典。是的，这不是因为烤肉串或哈鲁米奶酪或任何其他原因，我们就是更喜欢雅典，而不是斯巴达。当然，你看，雅典的民主有一点，怎么说呢？更新得不够及时。是的，好吧，原始版本有点有限。但即便如此，雅典作为美学、哲学、智慧、理性和民主的发源地，它是西方民主的起源，大多数以色列人还是希望能过上美好的生活。
We want to leave. We want our children to live. I cannot tell you how much I cried when my kids went to the army. I was standing there when the bus took them. And I remembered my mom telling me, Kido, when you grow up, there will be peace and you will not have to serve in the army. And I did have to serve in the army. And then I said the same thing to my kids. Between my wife and myself and my kids, we have more than 30 years of service in the family. Now we have grandchildren. And one day soon they will have to serve because we are citizens of the place. We are partners to the responsibility. And I know that the day in which my grandchildren generation will stand up and say, we are ready to defend the legitimate Israel. But we are not ready to sacrifice our life or to sacrifice the life of others on the altar of this craziness. This day is close.
我们想要离开。我们希望我们的孩子能够活下来。当我的孩子参军时，我哭得有多伤心，我无法描述。当大巴把他们带走时，我就站在那里。我想起我妈妈对我说：“孩子，当你长大后，就会有和平，你就不用参军了。”但我还是不得不参军。而后我也对我的孩子们说了同样的话。在我和我的妻子以及孩子之间，我们家庭已经有超过30年的服役时间。现在我们有了孙子孙女。没多久，他们也会需要服役，因为我们是这个地方的公民，我们对这个责任有份。 我知道，总有一天，我孙辈这一代会站出来说：“我们愿意捍卫合法的以色列。但我们不愿意为了这场疯狂而牺牲自己的生命，或者牺牲他人的生命。”这一天很快就会到来。
That's very reassuring. I'm sorry. That's a very reassuring thing to hear. I give you a moment that you were there with me in that moment. When October 7, you rocked like a volcano, covered the entire city of Naples, so to say, the Israeli Naples. We were all under the dust. What was the first thing that came back to the table to stay solution? As much as Trump said, I mean, I solved it. And Netanyahu, like Houdini, made it disappear. It came back to the table and it is still there. And you cannot ignore it. And you should not ignore it. And therefore the pressure flow within and from the outside and the reality. And the options, I hope, will be offered to all of us after this round with Iran will be over. There will be new options. Some of them hopeful, some of them promising. Eventually Israelis will say we are ready to serve the needed, but not the fantasies.
这真是令人感到安心。我很抱歉，不过听到这样的话确实让人宽心。我给你一个时刻，让你和我一起经历那个瞬间。10月7日，你如同火山般爆发，仿佛覆盖了整个那不勒斯城，或者说以色列的那不勒斯。我们都笼罩在灰尘之下。首先回到谈判桌上的是解决方案。当时就好像特朗普说过：“我解决了它。” 而内塔尼亚胡则像魔术师一样让问题消失。它又回到了桌面上，依然存在，也无法被忽视，你不应该忽视它。因此，内外部的压力和现实，以及希望这次和伊朗的冲突结束后，大家将能够获得新的选择，其中一些充满希望，一些充满承诺。最终，以色列人会说，我们准备好支持必要的事，而不是幻想。
Are you concerned that Israel, if this continues at the current pace, will be hit hard enough by Iran that it responds with nuclear weapons? The first time I thought about it was when you started to raise the issue in your programs. And I had a feeling that you are really troubled by it. Very. And I had a feeling that not your trouble that Israel will be new, to will new them because the effect on so many other fronts and the nuclear race that will start right afterwards will put all of us in a real threat. So I fully, I started to think about it. I'm not so much troubled by Israel, new king them because Israel has two strategies.
你是否担心以色列会因为伊朗的攻击而被迫使用核武器进行反击？当你在节目中提起这个问题时，我第一次对此有所思考。我感觉你对此非常担忧。而我也感觉到，你真正担心的并不是以色列会使用核武器，而是这种行动在其他方面引发的影响，以及随之而来的核竞赛将给我们所有人带来真正的威胁。所以我开始对此深入思考。我并不太担心以色列会使用核武器，因为以色列有两种策略。
Since we, as Jews, we could never compromise with one opinion. So we said, yeah, let's have two opinions. So we have one conventional army that is ordered to win, never mind what. And then we have the non-conventional capability, which is ordered to win, no matter what. And I believe that every threat yet in the region, we can address with conventional power and setting. Yet, if there is, should be a way out of it, you promote in the last couple of weeks, you promote the issue of all the sides who sit together around the same table, talk respectfully to each other with no patronizing and with no, with no arrogance. Just talk to each other. I say something as well. Yes, of course, I'm a dialogueist. I talk with you. Okay, we're talking. I want the outcome of this war to be a middle east, clean of weapons of mass destruction to all Israel denied bombs and included.
由于我们作为犹太人，无法妥协于一种观点，所以我们决定接受两种观点。我们拥有一支常规军队，命令是无论如何都要赢。同时，我们也有非常规能力，目标也是无论如何都要获胜。我相信，目前区域内的威胁可以通过常规力量和手段来应对。然而，如果有必要的话，应该有一种解决办法。这几周来，你主张各方坐在同一张桌子上，互相尊重地交谈，没有居高临下，也没有傲慢。只是相互交谈。我也想说些什么。是的，当然，我是一个对话者，我与你交流。好的，我们开始谈判。我希望这场战争的结果是一个没有大规模毁灭性武器的中东，包括以色列的核武器在内。
Now it is clear that Iran must have North Korean strategy in order to protect itself. It didn't start with us. It started with the Iraqis. Then they said, listen, the only way we can protect ourselves is to have this kind of to pro-capability. So in order for Iran not to have it and therefore Saudi not to run after them and then Egypt to say what about us and then the Emirates or the Qataris buying something from Pakistan and then and and we should make sure that by the end of this negotiation, whatever we give to whom because this negotiation you give, you take, you negotiate, the outcome should be a process, a middle east, clean of weapons of mass destruction which will be imposed on Israel as well.
现在很明显，为了保护自己，伊朗必须采取类似朝鲜的战略。这并不是由我们引发的，而是从伊拉克人开始的。然后他们说，听着，我们唯一能保护自己的办法就是拥有这种能力。因此，为了避免伊朗获得这种能力，进而引发沙特也去追求这一能力，然后埃及会问，那我们怎么办，再接着阿联酋或卡塔尔可能从巴基斯坦购买某些东西，等等，我们应该确保在这次谈判结束时，无论我们给谁给予了什么，因为这次谈判是一个你来我往的过程，最终的结果应该是一个没有大规模杀伤性武器的中东地区，这同样要对以色列加以约束。
Who could impose that? President Trump. Overnight. It's hard for me. I mean, again, as someone who would love to see, would be grateful to see what you just described. I want that. It's hard to see Netanyahu ever accepting that under any circumstances. That's right. That's right. It's difficult. It's not easy. But as my wife's father that was mentioned once already in this program used to say, he doesn't believe in sticks and carrots. He believes in carrots and carrots and then he said, even a carrot can cause some pain sometime. I mean, that was to do it. That was to secure it. That was to guarantee it. It opens a whole new window, so to say, about can you trust America today?
谁能强行推行这种政策？特朗普总统。可以一夜之间实现。对我来说这很困难。我的意思是，作为一个希望看到你刚才描述的情况并对此心存感激的人，我想要那样的结果。但很难想象内塔尼亚胡在任何情况下会接受这样的政策。没错，确实很难，并不容易。但就像我妻子的父亲在这个节目中曾经说过的一样，他不相信用棒子和胡萝卜的方法。他相信用胡萝卜和胡萝卜的方法，然后他说，有时候即便是胡萝卜也会让人感到疼痛。我的意思是，这是为了做到这一点，这是为了确保这一点，这是为了保证。这也开启了一个全新的视角，可以说是关于今天你是否能信任美国。
What the God states that both of us are curious about them? Yes. Okay, something is happening there. What will they say if America will walk away from this conflict and leave them alone at the mouth of the Iranian lion or the Israeli lion? That's right. Not good. What Japan will say. What South Korea will say. What India will say. And then, then, then, then Taiwan, Singapore, all of these important places. If you cannot trust America, so it's self-reliance, self-reliance means an immediate ornament race, which is bad. So in order to prevent the world to go into a new race like that, and this is the entire world, and we know who will be the profitors of it, all of those who export death and weapons of hatred to all over the world.
上帝声明我们俩对此好奇吗？是的。好吧，那边真的发生了一些事情。如果美国退出这场冲突，把他们留在伊朗狮子或以色列狮子的嘴边，他们会怎么说？没错，不好。日本会怎么说。韩国会怎么说。印度会怎么说。然后，还有台湾、新加坡，这些重要的地方。如果你不能信任美国，那么就得依靠自己，自力更生意味着立即开始军备竞赛，这不好。为了防止世界陷入这样的新竞赛——是整个世界，我们知道谁会从中受益，那就是那些向全世界出口死亡和仇恨武器的人们。
In order not to make these industries, industries of hatred and industries of suspicion and industries of death, in order not to make them profitable, the only way to come positively out of this conflict is to begin here at home. Here is the first region which is clean, and we move on. And these are the guarantees we Americans are giving you that nothing bad will happen to you if a threat like this, one they will stand in front of you. So America in order to do anything is not just about the oil prices, which is important by itself. I mean, if you live at a suburbs for so many years and you want to drive to your father's city, your supermarket, the price is crucial. I consider it very seriously as a daily existential issue for the American citizen.
为了避免这些行业成为仇恨、猜疑和死亡的产业，并使它们无法盈利，唯一积极解决这一冲突的方法就是从我们自己的家园开始。这里是第一个清洁的地区，然后我们继续向前。而我们美国人向你们保证的是，如果出现这样的威胁，我们会站在你们面前，让你们安全无虞。因此，美国采取行动并不仅仅是因为油价，虽然油价本身就很重要。我是说，如果你在郊区住了很多年，想开车去父亲所在的城市或超市，那么油价是至关重要的。我认为这是美国市民每天面对的重要生存问题。
But if you want a world to be pacified and calmer, you need to restore not the trust in the markets, but the trust in America. Again, we strongly agree on that. What would happen if no American leader was able to restore that trust or the United States couldn't afford to remain a stabilizing force globally because it's expensive? What would happen to the world? The simple answer is, I have no clue. The little bit more augmented one is somebody else would walk, somebody else would grow into this responsibility. Will it be China that with all the problems that Chinese are having, there are about two things that are very much about continuous stability at home and abroad and that hardly ever initiated a war.
如果你希望世界变得更平和、更安定，你需要恢复对美国的信任，而不是对市场的信任。对此，我们非常认同。如果没有美国的领导人能够恢复这种信任，或者美国因为成本太高而无法继续充当全球稳定力量，会发生什么？简单的答案是，我不知道。稍微详细一点的看法是，会有其他国家崛起，承担起这个责任。会是中国吗？尽管中国有很多自身的问题，但他们在国内外一直注重稳定，很少主动发动战争。
The play games, but it don't declare wars the way we declare wars every now and then. So maybe China would grow into it. Maybe there will be a different world coalition of interested parties who would like to see something like that and this is a very ambitious and what about Europe? I saw your vice president there and then I saw your secretary of state there. One with a little bit more abrasive style, the other one a little bit more subtle one, saying the same thing, Europe you are done. And I say I'm not at all sure. The good old continent was done so many times and rediscovered itself and re, can you say re-produced itself? I'm out of it. Reproduced itself so many times in history and I have a feeling that this mechanism of renewal which is the cradle of the Western civilization.
虽然游戏可以玩，但它不会像我们偶尔宣战那样进行战争的宣告。也许中国会逐渐适应这个模式。也许会出现一个新的世界联盟，由希望看到类似事情发生的各方组成，这是一个非常有野心的计划。那么欧洲呢？我看到你的副总统在那里，然后我又看到你的国务卿在那里。一个风格稍显强硬，另一个则比较委婉，但传达的是同样的信息：欧洲，你已经完了。而我对这一点毫不确定。这个古老的大陆多次被认为结束了，但每次都重新发现并“重生”。我甚至想说，欧洲在历史上已经自我“再生”了这么多次，我觉得这种复兴的机制正是西方文明的摇篮。
The Western civilization is European first and only then the rest of the Christian, Anglo-Saxon, etc. etc. And I have the feeling that Europe has the power to renew itself and to grow up into it and remember that Israel and Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the next neighbors. It's not far away from Florida. No, it's not. And I take Mark Twain, I take Mark Twain, wisdom, who said that every now and then America declares a war in order for Americans to study geography. I understand. Did he really say that? That's pretty good. This is what I read. Okay. And if it did not, let's give it to him. You know, in the world you say either Bernatio or Gautro Marx or Oscar Wyde or Mark Twain. We have a limited palette. Yes. Great. Now, what of them did it? Okay.
西方文明首先是欧洲的，然后才是其他基督教国家、盎格鲁-撒克逊等。我感觉欧洲有能力自我更新并发展壮大，也要记住以色列、土耳其、伊朗和沙特阿拉伯是紧邻的国家。它们离佛罗里达并不远。是的，并不远。我引用马克·吐温的智慧，他说美国偶尔发动战争，是为了让美国人学习地理知识。我不知道他是否真的说过这句话，但我觉得挺有意思的。这是我读到的内容。好吧，就算他没说过，也让他承担这些话。你知道，世上常有人提到伯纳德·肖或格劳乔·马克斯或奥斯卡·王尔德或马克·吐温。我们的选择有限。是的，很好。那么他们中的谁说过呢？
So, and I say for Europe, it is much more natural at what sense when you look at the Middle East, the Middle East of today with all of its fragility and all of its volatile forces is the left over of two poisonous European fruits, the Holocaust and colonialism. And I'm not at all sure that Europe went yet through the process to internalize it, to grow up to the challenge, what do we do about it? Do we have any kind of historic responsibility? And with America walking away, this America walking away from NATO and walking away from so many things, maybe it's time for Europe to re-calculate its position in history.
这段话的中文翻译可以这样表达：
“因此，对于欧洲而言，当你观察中东时，这是更自然的。在当今脆弱且充满不稳定力量的中东，它实际上是两个有害的欧洲遗留产物——大屠杀和殖民主义的结果。我不确定欧洲是否真正经历了内化这个事实的过程，是否已经成熟到可以面对挑战：我们应该怎么处理这些遗留问题？我们是否有任何历史责任？而随着美国逐渐放弃对北约及许多其他事务的参与，也许欧洲是时候重新计算自己在历史中的定位了。”
So I have to end and I should have done this at the beginning, but I just want to make sure that you get credit for this. I want to read a line that you wrote immediately after the beginning of this war and you wrote it in the Israeli press because it's just so prescient. And you're describing your prime minister Netanyahu and our president Trump. You said, neither he nor Trump has the faintest idea why they want what they want to happen here after day one. You saw that at the very beginning that this was a war without a strategic goal and I think that's proven true. How were you, here's my question, how were you treated when you said that? What was the response to that and what has your life been like in Israel over the last month because I don't think you're in the majority in your opinions?
所以我得结束了，我本应该在一开始就这样做的，但我只是想确保这件事给你应得的认可。我想读一段你在这场战争开始后不久写的文字，你在以色列的媒体上发表的，因为它实在是太有先见之明了。你描述了你的总理内塔尼亚胡和我们的总统特朗普。你说：他们中的任何一位，包括特朗普，甚至都不清楚他们第二天想要在这里发生什么。你一开始就看出了这是场没有战略目标的战争，我认为这已经被证明了。那么，我的问题是，当你这样说的时候你是如何被对待的？对此的回应是什么？因为我认为在过去的一个月里，你在以色列的生活并不容易，你的观点可能也并不是主流。
I left the Knesset voluntarily some 20 years ago and ever since I dedicated most of my life to think, to write, to read, to lecture, to teach, to offer alternative narrative to Israel. Is it is not and with each and every book of mine and each and every article of mine, in a way I'm pushed further away from the mainstream. This is not just about the death wishes and the threats and the push picks in the streets. It's not about that. It's about the loneliness of having an opinion. Yet, I'm a Jew. What does that mean? Being a Jew is many things. One of them is to be dedicated to the culture of this agreement.
大约20年前，我自愿离开了以色列议会，此后我将大部分时间投入到思考、写作、阅读、讲学和教学中，并为以色列提供另一种叙事。正因为如此，每一本书和每篇文章都让我在某种程度上逐渐远离主流。这不仅仅是因为死亡威胁、街上的指指点点，不是这些，而是因为拥有不同意见而感到的孤独。然而，我是个犹太人。这意味着什么呢？成为犹太人有很多含义，其中之一就是致力于“不同意文化”。
When you look at the Talmud, that's the most important Jewish writing, a creation, that's the oral Torah. This is the development of the written scripture. It's thousands of pages. So boring Tucker, you cannot imagine. My goat, ate your tomato. Your cucumber, heated my wife. I mean, what kind of. But it's not about goats, it's not about cucumbers, it's not about this. Jews for centuries. So did I, so did my father, so did my grandfather. Not only the Talmud, because the Talmud documents obsessively, not just the decision and the verdict of the majority, but the position of the minority. With the assumption that they will come, that the majority will wake up and realize how long they were, we have already made the strategy prepared by the minority to become the new majority philosophy.
当你看到《塔木德》时，你会发现这是最重要的犹太文献之一，是口述《托拉》的艺术结晶。这是对书面经文的发展，它有成千上万页内容。非常无聊，Tucker，你无法想象。好像在说“我的山羊吃了你的番茄”，“你的黄瓜惹恼了我的妻子”之类的。其实，它根本不是关于山羊或者黄瓜的。犹太人几个世纪以来都在研究它。我也是，我的父亲也是，我的祖父也是。不仅仅是因为《塔木德》详细记录了大量的内容，不仅是大多数人的决定和裁决，还有少数人的观点。我们假设未来多数人会醒悟，意识到自己犯下的错误，而届时少数人已经为成为新的主流哲学而做好了策略准备。
So being in a minority and a Jew, it's not a problem. So were the prophets. So were the rabbis. So were the intellectuals. So what? It's a responsibility. And I see my role in life. And it's not alone. You never do things like this alone. It's to offer first thinking, which is different than the parameters of the public discourse and to be courageous enough and expressive enough for people to know the reason address out there. There is somebody out there who thought about it and he's not afraid, so shouldn't we be afraid.
所以，作为少数群体中的一员，作为一名犹太人，这没有问题。先知也是犹太人，拉比也是，知识分子也是。那么，又如何呢？这是一种责任。我看到了自己在生活中的角色。这并不是一个人的事情，这种事情从来不是一个人能完成的。我的任务是提供不同于公众话语框架的全新思考，并且要足够勇敢和清晰地表达出来，让人们知道外面还有人在关注这些问题。他已经思考过这些，并且不害怕，所以我们也不应该害怕。
Look at my T-shirt. OK. I went abroad a couple of months ago. I'm going with that. I said listen, every outro orthodox has his outfit. That you recognize like an English, OK? Yes. Every settler has his or her outfit, which is an M16 rifle and something else. OK. I have my uniform. So I mean, the airport comes to me and says, Boug, don't you think it's about time to change your shirt? Why it's thinking? He said, no, no, no, no, no, peace is thinking. OK. And of course, for me, it was an opening for a deliberation, for a discussion.
看看我的T恤。好吧。我几个月前出国了。我就从这儿说起。我说，听着，每个有自己特色的人都有他们的标志性穿搭，你知道，就像英国人的风格一样，对吗？是的。每个定居者都有他们的标志性装备，比如一把M16步枪和其他东西。好吧。而我也有我的“制服”。所以，当机场的人对我说：“Boug，你不觉得该换件T恤了吗？”的时候，我心想：凭什么这么说呢？他们说：“不不不，和平才是我们思考的重点。”当然，这对我来说就成为了一次深入讨论和交流的好机会。
So yes, many times I'm alone and yes, many times I'm even lonely. But I'm full of hope. And I offer hopes, hope for other. And when my daughter asked me, Daddy, how do you feel? She asked me the Tucker's question. How do you feel? I said, what's the problem there? I'm in a majority. I agree with myself. At home, we all think the same. So it's a majority. All my friends think like me. It's a majority. Politically, I support people like me. So we are the majority. The fact that they have more numbers? That's marginal. Bottom line is sometimes Tucker being a Jew means being an alternative.
所以，是的，很多时候我独自一人，是的，很多时候我甚至感到孤独。但我充满了希望。我也带给别人希望。当我女儿问我，爸爸，你感觉如何时，她问的是塔克常问的问题。你感觉如何？我说，那里有什么问题吗？我属于多数。我和自己意见一致。在家里，我们都想得一样，所以我们是多数。我所有的朋友都和我一样想，所以我们是多数。在政治上，我支持和我一样的人，所以我们是多数。他们人数更多？那只是次要的。归根结底，有时候身为塔克的一名犹太人，就意味着成为一种另类。
Well, I like your alternative. And this conversation has really been a blessing for me. So thank you very much for taking the time to do it. And I hope a lot of people see this. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. And give me the opportunity. Thank you very much, Tucker. Thank you.
好的，我喜欢你的建议。这个谈话对我来说真的是一件幸事。非常感谢你抽出时间来进行这次交流。我希望有更多的人能看到这个。非常感谢你的时间，谢谢你给我这个机会。非常感谢你，塔克。谢谢。