Chiron in Astrology, with Melanie Reinhart
发布时间 2020-09-16 18:32:58 来源
Hi, my name is Chris Brennan and this is the Astrology podcast. Today I'm going to be talking with Melanie Reinhardt about the astrology of Chiron. So this is episode 271 and I'm recording it on Monday, September 14, 2020, starting at 11.04 a.m. in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Melanie, welcome to the episode or welcome to the show. Hi, Chris and thanks so much for inviting me to have a conversation with you.
你好，我叫克里斯·布伦南，这里是占星播客。今天我会和梅兰妮·莱因哈特谈论凯龙星的占星学。这是第271集，我是在2020年9月14日星期一上午11:04在科罗拉多州丹佛市开始录制的。你好，梅兰妮，欢迎参加这一集或加入我们的节目。你好，克里斯，非常感谢你邀请我与你对话。
Yeah, this is, I'm excited to do this episode. It's been one I've been needing to do for a long time and that a lot of listeners have asked me to do an episode on Chiron. I did an episode just sort of in general on the asteroids earlier this year, finally with Dmitra George, but I wanted to, we didn't really go. I saw that it was lovely. Yeah, I was glad to have that discussion, but one of the points that came up that was interesting that we noted is that she had focused more on series and best and Juno and didn't cover Chiron as much in her book, but yours was one of the first books that really set the stage.
是的，我很期待这期节目。这是我一直想做的节目，很多听众也一直请求我做一期关于凯龙星的节目。今年早些时候，我终于和德米特拉·乔治一起做了一期关于小行星的节目。我很高兴能进行那次讨论。不过，我们注意到一个有趣的点，就是她的书中更多地关注了谷神星、灶神星和婚神星，而对凯龙星的讲述较少，而您的书是首批真正奠定基调的书之一。
Early in my studies and the early 2000s, there were like two major books on Chiron that were out there and yours was really one of the main ones and seems like it's been one of the most influential ones in establishing Chiron as something that a lot of modern astrologers use in practice. Really quickly, the title of your book is Chiron and the Healing Journey, which is published in 1989, right? Yes, and then there was a revision I did and my own imprint came out in 2010. Okay, yes. The first one was published by Penguin. Right, yeah, I was part of the Penguin Arcana series, which was like a really amazing series at the time.
在我学习和研究的初期，也就是2000年代初期，关于凯龙的小行星仅有两本主要的书，而您的作品实属其中之一，并且看起来对现代占星学家在实践中应用凯龙星产生了相当大的影响。您的书名是《凯龙星与疗愈之旅》，最初于1989年出版，对吗？是的，然后我在2010年进行了修订，并由我自己的品牌重新发行。好的，第一版是由企鹅出版社出版的。对，是企鹅的Arcana系列的一部分，那时这个系列非常出色。
Oh, that was, oh, it was really wonderful. Really wonderful. Like Jeffrey Cornelius is the moment of astrology in your book and like a few other really major books at the time. Yes. All right, let's go ahead. The series editor was Howard Susportus. Oh, wow. Okay. And then later, I think by the time of the second edition of your book, it was Aaron Sullivan. Correct. Okay. Yes, after how it died, she, was she'd been working with him on it, but she took over that and fought very hard to keep the thing going, but Penguin basically abandoned it.
哦，那真是，哦，真的太棒了。真的很棒。就像你书中的《占星时刻》是杰弗里·科内利厄斯的，还有同时期的其他几本非常重要的书。是的。好的，我们继续。系列编辑是霍华德·苏斯波图斯。哦，哇。好的。然后后来，我想到了你书的第二版时，是艾伦·沙利文负责的。对的。霍华德去世后，她接手了这个项目，并且非常努力地想要继续下去，但企鹅出版社基本上放弃了它。
Okay. I was wondering what happened. Which was a pity because actually when the series began, they had a marvelous overall editor called Robin Waterfield. He was a classic scholar. Yeah. And very much astrology friendly. He was a really notable classic scholar. Oh, absolutely. Yes. And a really nice bloke and very astrology friendly. And he went on to greater things and basically left a big vacuum in the overall editorship. And apart from his shepherding of it, really Penguin wasn't really equipped with the subject material, you know?
好的。我在想这到底是怎么回事。真是遗憾，因为在这个系列刚开始时，他们有一位很出色的总编辑，名叫罗宾·沃特菲尔德。他是一位古典学者，而且对占星学非常友好。他确实是一位非常著名的古典学者，哦，绝对是的。而且他是一个很好的人，对占星学非常友好。后来他有了更好的发展，基本上留下了一个很大的编辑空缺。除了他的引导之外，企鹅出版社（Penguin）其实并不擅长处理这一主题的内容，你知道吗？
Sure. And then they just kind of abandoned it and just didn't reprint stuff. And bit by bit, the whole series went out of print. It was very sad that. Yeah. Well, this was back when major publishers like Penguin were still doing astrology books, which it seems like many have moved away from. Correct. Howard Susportus, the gods of change, was one of the books in that series, which is also an amazing book. That's right. But let's talk about your work. So first, I wanted to introduce you to my audience and talk a little bit about your background and some of the things that you've done just to give some context for your work.
好的，后来他们就放弃了，不再重新印刷那些内容。渐渐地，整个系列就停版了，这实在令人惋惜。是的，那还是企鹅出版社这样的主流出版商还在出版占星书的时候，但现在似乎很多出版商都不再愿意参与了。没错，霍华德·苏斯波塔斯的《变革之神》就是这个系列中的一本书，而且也是非常精彩的一本书。没错。不过我们来聊聊你的作品吧。首先，我想向我的观众介绍你，谈谈你的背景和你所做的一些工作，这样可以为你的作品提供一些背景信息。
So in your bio on your website, it says that you've been practicing astrology since about 1975. Yeah. Well, that was when I did my first piece of paid for work. I'd been reading charts already for a few years before that. Okay. So that was the first time you did a paid consultation. I was asked people like, what do you consider like the moment that you started being a practicing astrologer? And for you, it's the first time somebody paid you for a consultation?
在你网站上的个人简介中提到，你从大约1975年开始从事占星工作。是的，那是我第一次进行有偿工作的时候。在那之前，我已经研究星盘好几年了。哦，所以那是你第一次进行付费咨询。我常问人们，他们认为自己开始正式从事占星工作的标志是什么。对你来说，是第一次有人付钱让你做咨询的那一刻吗？
I would know because I was already reading lots of charts actually before that for a few years. And I took that equally seriously, you know? Right. Certainly the first paid for consultation that felt like some little watershed also very significant was that was the very month that I actually met Dean Rudyard. Wow. So I was living in the States at that time in Massachusetts and he did a weekend workshop in the astrology center, I believe it was called in New York City. I traveled down to New York for this and had a weekend in heaven meeting Dean Rudyard and so on. He was quite wonderful.
我知道是因为在那之前的几年里，我已经在阅读大量图表。而且我同样非常认真地对待这件事，对吧。当然，第一次收费咨询也很有意义，可以说是一个重要的转折点，而那恰好是我遇到迪恩·鲁德亚德的那个月。哇。当时我住在美国马萨诸塞州，而他在纽约市的一个天文中心举办了一个周末工作坊。我特地去了纽约，这个周末仿佛置身天堂，见到了迪恩·鲁德亚德等等。他真是太棒了。
And it was really down to him. He was the one who really gave me the shove to encourage me to start charging and to start thinking of myself as a professional, which I wasn't really before. I was taking it seriously, but that was very special. Was Rudyard one of your primary influences early on as a astrology? Absolutely. Yes. Astrology had come into my life when I was 10 years old and a very kind of, well, interesting circumstances in the light of what I focused on later. In that I fell and broke my arm rather badly up near the shoulder and I had a lot of time. off school because I had to be in this huge plaster cast. So moving on to difficult and getting around and all that. But the local library was at the end of our street. So instead of going to school, I would kind of waddle down the road. This big, big plaster cast thing and spend my day in the library.
这一切真的归功于他。他是那个真正推动我、鼓励我开始收取费用，并让我开始把自己当作专业人士来看待的人，而在此之前我并没有这样做。我一直很认真对待，但那段经历非常特别。鲁迪亚德在你早期学习占星术时是你主要的影响者之一吗？绝对是的。占星学在我10岁时进入了我的生活，那是一种非常特别的、风趣的经历，这也成为我后来关注的重点。当时我摔了一跤，肩膀附近的手臂严重骨折，所以不得不少上很多天的学，因为我不得不待在石膏绷带里。这带来了行动上的困难。但我们街尾有个图书馆，所以我没去上学，而是拖着笨重的石膏绷带沿着街道慢慢走到那里，整天呆在图书馆里。
Now this was back in Radeegia as it was, Zimbabwe as it's become and it was and is basically an agrarian economy. And so there was one shelf about yay wide. I could do not call philosophy psychology in religion. That was it. This was the national library of Radeegia. However, even a small bookshelf like that, if you really read this stuff and really think about it, you can get like years of inquiry and thinking and wondering and being philosophically stimulated. And there was one little book on astrology. I wish I remembered the title in the author, but I don't. And my memory of that is so vivid. I remember because I had my arm in this big cast out here. Because I propped the book on the cast and I was reading it like this and I absolutely knew that there was way more to astrology than was in this little book.
这段文字讲述了在罗得西亚（现称津巴布韦）的时候，那里的经济以农业为主。当时的国家图书馆里只有一个大约这么宽的书架，书架上放着关于哲学、心理学和宗教的书。虽然只有这么一个小书架，但如果你真正去读这些书、深入思考，就可以获得多年探究、思考和哲学上的启发。书架上有一本小书是关于占星术的。我希望自己能记得这本书的书名和作者，但遗憾的是我记不住了。不过我对当时的记忆特别清晰，因为我当时手臂上打着石膏，把书放在上面读，而我完全明白占星术远不止这本小书里所写的内容。
So I was left feeling really frustrated. Was the only one on astrology. And I just absolutely knew that there was so much more to it. And in that moment, the passion to find out and to learn more was ignited. So in the lacking classes or books because it was wartime and sanctions and all that, I simply memorized all the sunsines and then I would ask every single person I met, always ask them their birthday. And I would think and write notes and see how it checked out with this little book and Ponder and Wanda and so forth. And I did that for years and years. Just sort of thinking about it, mulling it over. I remember also my father showing me some of the constellations at night, vivid memories of that against a beautiful black African sky.
所以我感到很沮丧。占星术是我唯一的兴趣，我深知其中蕴含着更多的奥秘。就在那一刻，我的好奇心和求知欲被点燃了。因为战争和制裁，相关的课程和书籍很匮乏，我只好先记住所有的星座，然后每当遇到一个新的人，我都会问他们的生日。接着，我会认真思考，做笔记，然后对照一本小书看看是否吻合，通过反思和探索来深入了解。我这样坚持了很多年，一直不停地琢磨、思索。我还记得父亲曾在夜晚指给我看一些星座，那些美好的记忆在非洲漆黑的夜空下显得格外清晰。
How did your family, you were born in Zimbabwe and you spent the first part of your life there? How did that come about? Yes. So my father was born in South Africa. His father was from Yorkshire and my mother was born in Dublin and they actually met out in Zimbabwe. Okay. So did you find astrology definitely at the age of ten or was it around ten? Yeah. Okay. That's a beautiful story. So you started, that started your lifelong interest in it and then eventually you said you were in New York, by the time you met Rudyard and you were living in the US at what point did your studies really accelerate or was it already just full on from there?
你的家人是如何来到津巴布韦的？你在那里出生并度过了人生的前半部分。这是怎么回事呢？
是这样的，我父亲在南非出生，他的父亲是来自约克郡的人，而我母亲则是在都柏林出生的。他们实际上是在津巴布韦相遇的。
那么，你是在十岁时就对占星术产生兴趣了吗？或者是大约在十岁的时候？
对的。
这是一个美丽的故事。那么，这就开启了你对占星术一生的兴趣。之后你说你在纽约，遇到了拉德亚德，并住在美国。那么在什么时刻你的研究真正加速了，还是说从那时起你的研究就一直很深入？
They accelerated when I left school and went down to Cape Town to university. And compared to Zimbabwe Cape Town, there was this major metropolis. And it was possible to get astrology books and things like that. What was the time frame and what was the astrological community like there and South Africa at that point? I didn't connect with it at all. Which is really interesting because I have a dear astrological friend, Darbicostello and she actually arrived in Africa the year that I left. So we were like ships passing in the night and never met there but met back in London.
当我离开学校前往开普敦上大学时，一切似乎加快了步伐。与津巴布韦相比，开普敦是一个大都市。在那里可以买到占星书籍和类似的东西。那么在那个时候，那里的占星界是怎样的呢？在南非的情况又是如何？我没有与它有任何联系。这点非常有趣，因为我有一位亲爱的占星朋友Darbicostello，她恰好在我离开的那年来到非洲。我们就像夜里交错而过的船只，没能在非洲相遇，但却在伦敦相识。
So that's the step there. A friend gave me a book by Dane Rudyard called The Pulse of Life. For my, I think it was my 20th or my 19th birthday and I just had this epiphany when I read it. What I had just like an absolute ecstasy of connecting with the way this man thought and recognizing myself in the astrology and it was like this was what I'd been looking for. I was so inspired and that connection was part of the reason why I left Africa. I didn't really know anything about the astrological community in England and how rich it was but I knew at least I'd be able to get more of a astrologer's books and so forth.
所以这就是其中的一步。一位朋友送我一本戴恩·鲁德亚（Dane Rudyar）写的书，叫做《生命的脉动》，这是在我19岁还是20岁生日的时候。当我阅读这本书时，我有了一种顿悟。我感受到了一种极致的喜悦，与这位作者的思维方式产生了共鸣，并在书中的占星术中看到了自己的影子，这正是我一直在寻找的东西。这份启发和这种连接是我离开非洲的部分原因。我对英国的占星学社群以及它的丰厚内涵不太了解，但我至少知道在那里能找到更多占星学方面的书籍等等。
So I did leave and I lived for many years either living directly in or connected to a spiritual community in the Sufi tradition and when I arrived there to take up my residence it only turned out that the man, the teacher who was focalising this community he was only the publisher of Dane Rudyard's work. So there was like the complete first edition, hardback, original publications of Rudyard which took up you know a big amount of the community bookshelf and it was through him that I first met Rudyard and then the second time was when I went down to New York to the workshop. Yeah. And so that was that community, the Sufi community was in the UK. Yes. Okay. Got it. So then eventually you make that personal connection with Rudyard. He encourages you to dive into the practice of astrology which must have been really compelling at that point if he was like your main person. Oh yeah. It was like it was like God on high had given me this crucial bit of encouragement.
我确实离开了，然后在很多年里，我要么直接生活在苏菲传统的一个精神社区里，要么与其有联系。当我来到那里居住的时候，发现那里的领导人、老师竟然是Dane Rudhyar作品的出版商。社区的书架上满是Rudhyar的第一版、精装、原版著作。也是通过这位老师，我第一次接触到了Rudhyar的作品。第二次见到Rudhyar是在我去纽约参加一个工作坊的时候。哦，原来那个苏菲社区是在英国。明白了。最终，你和Rudhyar建立了个人联系。他鼓励你深入研究占星术，这对你来说肯定很有吸引力，因为他就像你的主要导师。哦，是的，这就像上帝从天而降给了我至关重要的鼓励一样。
Sure. So let's see. So to circle around, actually I'm not sure if to jump for it. I mean eventually when we jump into our main topic which is Kairan was discovered on November 1st 1977 by an astronomer named Charles Cole. This began a period in like the late 70s and early 1980s when it seemed like astrologers started slowly getting interested in studying minor planetary bodies and asteroids like series and vest and Juno and then eventually some astrologers started studying Kairan. At what point did you get interested in it or start researching it? Immediately that I heard about its discovery because it was immediately named by the person who discovered it. Usually a whole big numbering and naming process can go on which can take years actually for a name to be confirmed and it has to be agreed by a committee which is the International Astronomical Union.
好的，让我们看看。要绕回主题，其实我不确定是否要直接跳到这个话题上。我们的主要话题是：Kairan是由天文学家查尔斯·科尔于1977年11月1日发现的。这一发现开启了70年代末和80年代初的一个时期，那时候似乎有些占星家开始慢慢对研究小行星和小行星体（如谷神星、灶神星和婚神星）产生兴趣，最终有些占星家开始研究Kairan。你是什么时候对它感兴趣或开始研究它的？在我听说它的发现之后就立即对其产生了兴趣，因为发现它的人立刻为其命名。通常，编号和命名的过程可能会持续多年，而且名称必须得到一个委员会的批准，这个委员会就是国际天文学联合会。
In the case, the astronomer who discovered Kairan knew some background mythology and he could see that there was a relationship between Saturn and Uranus and so in that sense that is part of the genealogy behind Kairan's legacy and so forth so he named it Kairan. And the name stuck so that it was named immediately sometimes it's only named a long time after and it was only six months before ephemeralesses came out. Oh wow okay that's quick so he named it very quick because it orbits between the orbits of Saturn and Uranus. Yes and the other thing was that in the first ephemeralesses I forget oh Tony Joseph was the name of a leave. They came out within six months and there was an excellent introductory essay just two or three pages and I was very excited because it was exactly along the same lines that I've already been thinking.
在这个案例中，发现"凯兰"的天文学家了解一些相关的神话背景，他意识到土星和天王星之间存在某种关系，从这个意义上说，这成为"凯兰"传承的一部分。因此，他将其命名为"凯兰"。这个名字很快被接受，而不像有些天体需要很长时间才被命名。"凯兰"是在轨道运行于土星和天王星之间这一发现后，很快就得到了命名，只花了六个月的时间就出版了一版天文年历。哇哦，这真是很快。所以他迅速命名是因为这个天体的轨道位置。是的，而且在第一版天文年历中，有一篇出色的介绍性文章，大约两三页，是由托尼·约瑟夫撰写的。我很兴奋，因为文章的内容正好与我之前的想法相吻合。
So I was interested immediately for entirely personal reasons because I knew the mythology of Kairan and the whole notion of the wounded healer was already meaningful in my life. Had you already studied mythology a lot extensively up to that point or was that a major piece of your- I wouldn't say extensively but I'd studied quite a lot in a way using the planets as my base and kind of digging around from that but I'm not like a proper student of mythology like some of our community are. Okay so let's see so Kairan was the first of a new class of bodies called centauros that are discovered which are bodies orbiting between the asteroid belt and the quiper belt which is really far out there.
所以，我立刻对此产生了兴趣，完全是出于个人原因，因为我了解凯兰的神话，而且"受伤的治疗者"这个概念在我的生活中已经有了意义。在那之前你已经对神话进行了很多深入的研究了吗？还是说这是你的一个主要研究领域？我不能说是深入研究过，但可以说我研究过相当多，以行星作为基础，进行一些探索，不过我不像我们社区中有些人那样是神话的专业学生。那么，让我们看看，凯兰是首先发现的新类天体称为"半人马"的小行星之一，它们是在小行星带和更远的柯伊伯带之间运行的天体。
No it's my understanding that well in the beginning when the when this group of quiper belt objects- or let me put that differently- objects that were said to have originated in the quiper belt- we're discovered and the whole group was called centauros. There was a flurry of attempts to define these little beasts and in the beginning it seemed quite straightforward to me and it was logical and made sense and it was kind of obvious. So in other words there were a few distinguishing characteristics of these objects. One was they all have very elliptical orbits. Two was that the orbits are very steeply inclined to the ecliptic. And three they all with one exception I mentioned maybe later they all cross over the orbit of at least one of the classical planets.
在我理解中，最初，当一组被认为起源于柯伊伯带的天体被发现时，这些天体被统称为半人马小行星。那时有很多尝试去定义这些小天体。最开始，这似乎很简单明了，也很有逻辑，很显而易见。换句话说，这些天体有几个明显的特征。首先，它们都有非常椭圆的轨道。其次，它们的轨道与黄道面的倾角非常陡峭。第三，除了我可能稍后提到的一个例外之外，它们的轨道都至少与一颗经典行星的轨道有所交叉。
Okay. But the sort of centaur zone if you like is in between Jupiter and Pluto. So if they go in closer like into the asteroid belt they're not centaurs anymore. And if they go further out than Pluto they're not centaurs anymore so they're kind of in this zone which links the outer part of the visible planets to the invisible planets and to me that symbolism absolutely speaks volumes you know. Do you want me to say a bit more about that all? I'd want to get into that. I like that actually because that's one of your access points that's really interesting to me in your work for understanding Kairan is not just a mythology but also the astronomical properties. Astronomy it's so so eloquent I love it.
好的。在木星和冥王星之间有一个区域，如果你愿意的话，可以称之为“半人马区”。所以，如果它们进入更靠近太阳的小行星带，它们就不再是半人马；如果跑到比冥王星更远的地方，它们也不是半人马。因此，它们位于一个连接可见行星外部和不可见行星的区域。对我而言，这个象征意义是非常深远的。你想让我再多说一些吗？我很想深入探讨这个话题。我很喜欢，因为这是你工作中一个重要的切入点，对理解凯龙不只是从神话学角度，还包括天文学特性。这非常具有表现力，我很喜欢。
Yeah. Astronomy I mean. So let me throw out a few other preliminary things really quickly so Kairan has been variously classified as an asteroid a minor planet a dwarf planet or even a comet. Some astrologers quickly became interested in researching it. I tried to compile a quick biography or bibliography and you could let me know if this is correct or not but one of the earliest astrologers or one of the first that I've been told who started working with kiron there was an astrologer named zane stein. Correct. Then there was another book by Hermany Lentero. Oh yes now I did read that. Titled the continuing discovery of kiron that came out in 1984. Fantastic book yes. Okay if you like that and then Demetri's book asteroid goddesses came out in June of 1986. There was another book by Barbara Henklau that came out on kiron in 1987. Your book kiron and the healing journey was published first published in 1989. Yep.
好的，天文学方面的讨论。我想快速提到一些前期信息：凯龙（Chiron）曾经被归类为小行星、小天体、矮行星，甚至是彗星。一些占星学家很快对研究它产生了兴趣。我尝试整理了一份快速传记或书目，你可以告诉我这是否正确。据我所知，最早或最先开始研究凯龙的占星学家之一是名叫赞恩·斯坦（Zane Stein）的占星师。没错。然后，赫尔玛尼·伦特罗（Hermany Lentero）写了一本书《凯龙的持续发现》，于1984年出版。确实是一本很棒的书。接下来是德米特里的书，《小行星女神》，于1986年6月出版。巴巴拉·汉克劳（Barbara Hand Clow）也在1987年出版了一本关于凯龙的书。你的书，《凯龙与治疗之旅》，首次出版是在1989年。不错。
And then there were other subsequent books for example by Martha Lang Westcott that also dealt with both asteroids as well as hypothetical planets. Is there anybody else that I should mention? Two more Richard Nol or Nolly. And this is an early one. I think it was just called kiron. Okay. There was some some great insights in there. And then much more recently Adam Gainesburg. Kiron and the wisdom of a deep something about the wisdom of the heart. Beautiful book. Okay brilliant. So that and so get Adam. Adam's is really recent and Richard Nol is like way back one of the first people. Okay. Yeah. Adam's book is kiron the wisdom of a deeply open heart. That's it. September 2006. All right. So that's some of the early history and that all sorts of sort of places you in terms of when when your book came out and also showing that there was a lot of early interest.
然后还有其他后续的书籍，比如Martha Lang Westcott的作品，也探讨了小行星和假想行星。还有其他人需要提到吗？还有两位，Richard Nol或者Nolly。他的一本早期书籍，我想名字只是简单的《凯龙》。这本书中有一些很棒的见解。而最近一些的是Adam Gainesburg的作品。书名是《凯龙与深入内心的智慧》，非常美丽的书。很好。Adam的书很新，而Richard Nol则是很久以前的作者之一。对的，Adam的书名是《凯龙：深度开放心灵的智慧》。发表于2006年9月。这就是一些早期的历史，并且显示出在你的书出版时已经有很多早期的兴趣。
So your book was published I guess 12 years after kiron was first discovered. And so you'd been working with it for at least over a decade at that point. Yeah. Because I got into it immediately. And also in in my own chart. I've kiron in Sagittarius opposite my son in Gemini. And it kind of it's visually stands out in the chart. So I said occasionally thought well you know if this little unknown object is going to be relevant for me it should be fairly easy to see in terms of life events and trans and them. And then about six months later I realized oh my god by transit kiron was about to make conjunctions with every single one of my personal planets. So it was discovered in Taurus. Then I have a whole band of planets in Taurus and Gemini. And I thought oh look at that.
所以，我猜你是在奇龙首次被发现12年后出版了你的书。那么当时你已经研究奇龙超过十年了。是的，因为我一开始就对它产生了兴趣。而且在我自己的星盘中，奇龙位于射手座，与位于双子座的太阳正相对，这在星盘中显得很突出。所以我有时想，如果这个鲜为人知的天体对我真的有影响，那么在生活事件和过渡中应该很容易看到。大约六个月后，我意识到，天哪，奇龙即将与我的每一颗个人行星形成合相。它是被发现于金牛座，然后我有一串行星位于金牛座和双子座。我当时想，哦，看看这个吧。
I then thought oh well I guess you know if there is something in this for me or others then my life should turn into a like a ring sites a ring site seat with a kiron show. Right. Because just years about about 10 years worth of conjunctions. Okay. My my god I had no idea what was coming down the tracks for me I tell you. And I really feel I learned everything that I learned about kiron from this in a journey. And then later from working with clients. And I feel that the journey I went on equipped me to do that work. There was an entire kind of cosmology. Which kind of rolled itself out as a result of my journey. And it it went into areas of of psychological work that were unheard of back then. And on now not exactly top of the pops but more and more people that understanding these themes and writing about them.
我当时心想，好吧，如果这其中对我或他人有某种意义，那么我的生活应该就像是一个绕成环状的场景，类似于一个环形座位的奇龙秀。对，因为这差不多就是10年的交汇。在这之前，我完全不知道我会面临什么。说真的，我真是从这段内心旅程中学到了关于奇龙的一切，后来又通过与客户合作中学到了很多。我觉得，正是这段旅程让我具备了从事这项工作的能力。这个过程揭示了一整套新的宇宙观，它拓展到了当时未曾听闻的心理工作领域，并且虽然现在这些领域还不算最流行，但越来越多的人开始理解并撰写关于这些主题的内容。
So amongst others those include transgenerational trauma and by the same token, transgenerational healing. And also healing the historical wounds that are embedded in that ancestry. Even including things that aren't direct personal wounds. But things like cultural injustices and so forth because obviously coming from Rhodesia. There was really a lot to process in terms of the colonial history that went on in Africa. My god you know just unbelievable. And that was not really considered back then even in the more enlightened versions of psychological treatments and all the rest of it. And so I wrote about all of that kind of stuff in my book.
在这些内容之中，涉及到代际创伤，同时也包括代际疗愈。此外，还包括疗愈深藏在祖先历史中的伤痕，甚至包括那些并非直接个人伤痛的事物，比如文化不公等。因为显然，来自罗得西亚（现津巴布韦）的人们需要处理大量与非洲殖民历史有关的事情。当时，心理治疗等较为先进的治疗方法甚至都没有真正考虑到这些问题。因此，我在书中写到了这些内容。
And it's lovely now to see that lots and lots of people are doing all kinds of really amazing work in exactly those areas. But at the time I was very much on my own with that. Even though I was in a Jungin analysis, that framework at least in the practice of it. I didn't really feel met by it. In the way that I was experiencing this process. And it was like I mean I hesitate to use the word because I don't want to be claiming anything. But it felt like a kind of process of shamanic initiation which went on from 1983 until past 1989 and that period included the writing of the book. Which felt to me like a thread. Like an Ariadne thread type of thing. In terms of the personal transits that I was watching from Kiron onto my chart.
现在，很高兴看到有那么多人在这些领域中做出各种真正惊人的工作。然而，当时，我几乎是孤军奋战。尽管我接受过荣格学派的心理分析，但在实践过程中，我并没有感到被理解。我经历这个过程时有一种感觉——虽然我不想自封什么，但它让我觉得像是一种萨满式的启蒙，从1983年一直持续到1989年以后。在那段时间里，我写了一本书，这本书对我来说就像一根线索，类似于阿里阿德涅之线。在此期间，我一直关注着凯龙星在我的星盘上移动的个人过境。
Now you might be able to talk yourself into lots of things interpretively in astrology but you cannot fake transits that absolutely demonstrate the symbolism and the process. And it was like a kind of a lifeline for me. So pretty soon I began to get clients where it was the same. They were like walking symbolic compendiums of the story of Kiron. And this actually pings me onto one of the questions that you wrote here. A listener question. Okay. Yes, the question is when do you feel you need to talk about Kiron? Right, that came from a listener. Yes, from Zamboni. Yeah, Zamboni, folks. Yeah, that there's a very particular answer to that. First of all, I don't feel I need to talk about I need to talk about Kiron. And I almost never try to interpret it. All I do is listen. And if what I'm hearing from my client who's speaking is basically telling me a story which is so obviously within the territory of Kiron.
现在，你可能在解读占星学的时候让自己相信很多事情，但你无法伪造那些明确体现象征意义和过程的星象变化。这对我来说就像是一根救命稻草。很快，我开始遇到一些客户，他们也一样，仿佛是行走的奇戎故事的象征大全。这让我联想到你写在这里的一个问题。听众提问。好的。问题是，你什么时候觉得需要谈论奇戎？是的，这是来自听众的问题。是的，来自Zamboni的。 对这个问题有个很特殊的答案。首先，我并不觉得我需要谈论奇戎。我几乎从不去尝试解释它。我所做的只是倾听。如果我从客户那里听到的内容显然在奇戎的领域之内，那么我就知道。
And there I hesitated because I now very much think of all the centaurs as a group. And when I say all I should clarify, I don't use them all is more than I forgot the number. I think it's about around 400 centaurs now. There's only about 20 of them I think which have actually been named. And of those even fewer that have been researched. Me, I don't think of myself as a researcher. I can only work with something that absolutely speaks to me. And I can't make that happen. So once that energy connection and almost like a full body energy connection has occurred, then I do the so-called research. But all I'm doing is kind of containing or like if you're painting you might have a vision first and then you get out the paints and the oils and the brush.
在那里，我犹豫了，因为现在我非常把所有的半人马都视为一个整体。当我说“所有”时，我需要澄清一下，我并不是指一开始就能想起所有的半人马，其实大概有400个半人马。目前，我想只有大约20个半人马有名字，而在其中，更少的是进行了研究的。我不认为自己是一个研究者，我只能处理那些真正触动我的事物。而这种触动是不能强求的。只有当那种能量连接发生时，几乎像是身体全身心的能量连接，那时候我才会进行所谓的研究。但实际上我所做的只是在容纳或捕捉，就像画画一样，你可能首先有个愿景，然后才拿出颜料、油彩和画笔。
So that's what I tried to do with words, tried to paint a picture of what I'd already experienced, not just me, but hundreds and hundreds of clients. It got so bizarre that I sometimes thought, my god, this really feels like these clients are coming to teach me about how Kiron works. Unbelievable. So part of your process though was an empirical process of like understanding what this new body meant partially through paying attention to it in your own chart. And also, exactly. Paying attention to it in the charts of clients. Indeed. So just to go back to Zamboni's question, I really don't feel like I need to talk about Kiron. But I guess maybe because I've worked so much with it, mostly I do end up talking about Kiron. And mostly that's because I can hear the story in what people are telling me.
所以，这就是我试图用文字做的事情，试图描绘出我已经经历过的景象，不仅是我，还有成百上千的客户。这变得如此怪诞，有时我会觉得，天啊，感觉这些客户就像是来教我如何理解凯龙星的，不可思议。不过，你这个过程中有一部分是通过在自己的星盘中观察来经验性地理解这个新天体的意义。而且，没错，通过观察客户的星盘也是如此。所以，回到赞博尼的问题，我真的觉得我不需要特意谈论凯龙星。但我想可能因为我对这个天体研究得太多，以至于大多数时间我还是会谈到它。主要是因为，我能在别人告诉我的故事中听到有关凯龙星的影子。
And it's got down to one time a man walked in limping and he'd fallen off a horse and injured his leg. Kiron was injured in his leg and he was a centaur, so his horse half with the lower half. I mean, and of course he had a big Kiron transit. And I'm sitting there kind of almost speechless because I don't even know what to say. Sure. Well, let's go back to square one just and let's assume that anybody listening to this doesn't have any idea what Kiron means or anything about the mythology and let's introduce the starting point. So you started sitting empirically, but also there was a heavy use of mythology and a sort of presumption that it seems like many astrologers were making from the 1970s and 1980s forward that the name that was chosen for Kiron and the Greek myths associated with that actually had some sort of deeper symbolic significance that actually related to what it meant in astrology, right?
这是一个关于奇伦（Chiron）的故事。有一次，一个男人一瘸一拐地走了进来，他从马上摔下来伤了腿。奇伦也是腿部受伤，不过他是个半人马，身体下半部分像马。当然，他遇上了一个重要的奇伦星相过境。我坐在那里几乎说不出话，因为不知道该怎么开口。好吧，让我们重头开始，假设听众完全不了解奇伦的意思或相关神话。许多占星师从1970年代和1980年代开始，使用了大量的神话，并假定选择“奇伦”这个名字及其希腊神话有着更深层的象征意义，与其在占星学中的意义有关，对吧？
Yes, I think, yeah, I think that's true. I mean, is that true or I don't want to put a reach here. Well, I don't I don't know about the assumption. Well, I never really assume that it was just that everything seemed to everything seemed to fit, you know, and then I mean, do you think that the mythology of Kiron is relevant for its interpretation and meaning and astrology? Yes, I do. Okay. I do. And do you know when I was actually writing the book, I mean, collected up these massive boxes of notes and so forth, but I actually never even thought of writing a book. I was just working to try and understand it myself. It was Howard who made that suggestion, bless him. So he had Kiron in Scorpio on the mid-Heaven and he was the one who gave me the show, gave me the prompt, you know? Nice.
是的，我想，是的，我觉得这是真的。我的意思是，这是真的吗？或者我不想随意猜测。嗯，我不太清楚这个假设。我从来没有真的假设过，只是觉得一切似乎都很契合。然后，我想问，你认为凯隆（Chiron）的神话在占星学中的解读和意义上重要吗？是的，我认为很重要。你知道吗，当我在写书的时候，我收集了大量的笔记，但实际上我从来没有想过要写一本书。我只是想自己理解它。是霍华德给了我这个建议，真是感谢他。他在天顶的天蝎座有凯隆，是他给了我这个提示，给了我这个启发。太好了。
Yeah, very nice. Yeah, so what is the myth associated with Kiron or what parts of the myth are relevant for somebody that's new to understanding Kiron mythology? Yeah, I would say that there's a very important reflection for us astrologers of the meaning of Kiron if you just study the astronomy a little bit. It's very graphic and I love that. So to me, you know, if the name and the mythology and the astronomy check out with the astrology that you're actually seeing, well, you know, that's good enough for me. I know that that's why I said I'm not really a researcher. I just kind of put stuff together and, you know, initially that would be a resonance in my own process and I don't automatically assume it's going to be of interest to anybody else.
好的，很不错。那么，关于奇龙（Kiron）的神话有哪些是与新人理解奇龙神话相关的呢？我会说，对于我们这些占星家来说，如果你稍微学习一下天文学，就会发现一段非常重要的反思。这点非常形象化，我非常喜欢。对我来说，如果名字、神话以及你实际看到的占星学能与天文学相吻合，那对我来说就足够了。我不是一个真正的研究者，我只是把东西拼凑在一起，最初这些东西可能在我自己的过程中产生共鸣，但我并不自动假定这会引起其他人的兴趣。
It's usually a really long time before I have researched it and then begin to share it and so forth because essentially the other centers that I work with, I don't work with all 400 or something. I only work with four, but each of them I learned about in the same way and ongoingly, you know? Right. So, I think I can let me answer your question more directly. So we see that Kiron and the Centaur's occupy the zone in the solar system that goes between Jupiter and Pluto. So that zone includes the outer edges of the easily visible planets and the ones that can't be seen with the naked eye but were discovered with maths and technology.
通常，我会花很长时间进行研究，然后才开始分享内容等等。因为我基本上不会和所有的四百多个类似机构合作，我只与其中四个合作，但对于每一个我都是以相同的方式进行了解，而且这个过程是持续的，对吧。所以，我想更直接地回答你的问题。我们看到，凯龙（Kiron）和半人马小行星群（Centaurs）占据了太阳系中介于木星和冥王星之间的区域。这个区域包括那些用肉眼可以轻易看到的行星的外边缘，以及那些肉眼无法看到但通过数学和技术发现的行星。
So it really is like two different worlds. They cross to and fro between these two worlds, the visible and the invisible. Now that absolutely speaks volumes because we all know what the visible world is, at least at the level of the senses and the notion of the invisible worlds, wow, that contains so much. It's our own internal experience. It's what's known as the unconscious in some systems of psychology. It's the spirit world. That's a more ancient and indigenous kind of a cosmology, but it's totally part of the human experience. It's just been pushed out and derided and oppressed for so long that people don't believe it, don't believe in it.
这真的是两个截然不同的世界。他们在这个可见世界和不可见世界之间来回穿梭。这真是意义深远，因为我们都知道什么是可见世界，至少在感官层面上。而对于不可见世界的概念，那真是包罗万象。它是我们自身的内在体验，在某些心理学体系中被称为无意识。它也是一个精神世界，这是更为古老和本土的宇宙观，但它完全是人类经验的一部分。只是它被排挤、嘲笑并压制了太久，以至于人们不再相信它，或不相信它的存在。
Regardless of the fact that many, many people do have experiences of the spirit world through their dreams, through reveries, through spirit visitations, etc. But they probably don't speak about it. Afraid that people think they're mad. Likewise, people can communicate with animals. This is a natural thing. Like any gift, it can be more developed in some people than others, but actually it's natural to be able to communicate with animals. And this is a very, very ancient thing, communicating with plants, same thing. There's a whole range of wonderful and flower healing, essences. There's almost, not all over the world, people are now they're reviving the way of using plants, essences, and the way it's done is through a communion.
尽管很多很多人确实通过梦境、遐想、灵魂访问等方式经历了灵界，他们可能却不愿意谈论这些经历，因为害怕被认为是疯了。同样地，人们也能够与动物进行交流。这是一件很自然的事情。就像其他天赋一样，这种能力在有些人身上比在其他人身上更加发达，但实际上，与动物交流是自然的。而且这种交流方式非常古老，与植物交流也是同样的道理。世界各地都有各种美妙的花卉疗法和精华。现在，全球范围内正在复兴使用植物精华的方法，而这种方式是通过与植物的交流来实现的。
Where it's like you know, you speak to the spirit of the plant or more accurately, they speak to you. Now you see it's that kind of consciousness that Kiron brings to us. Some people are very at home in that and others are frankly terrified and don't want to know. Fair enough. You know, so this notion of crossing the borders and connecting different dimensions of experience between the living and the dead, between the animals and the human, between the past and the future, whatever. And making that bridge, I mean in Barbara Han Klaus, lovely book, she calls Kiron the Rainbow Bridge. And I think partly it's this astronomical symbolism that evokes that so Kiron acting as a bridge and bridging two worlds or two seemingly unconnected areas.
意思是，你知道的，这种感觉就像是你和植物的精神对话，或者更准确地说，它们在和你说话。这种意识正是凯龙带给我们的。有些人对此很适应，而另一些人则感到恐惧，甚至不想了解。这也没关系。所以这种跨越界限、连接不同体验维度的概念，比如在生者与死者之间、动物与人类之间、过去与未来之间的连接，就是在建立一座桥梁。在芭芭拉·汉·克劳斯的书中，她把凯龙称为“彩虹桥”。我认为部分原因是由于凯龙在天文学中的象征意义，它象征着充当桥梁，连接两个世界或两个看似不相关的领域。
And that partially is also reflected in the astronomy as you described it as well as in the mythology of Kiron being like half human and half animal. Exactly. In his image, in his very form, is exactly that dilemma. Okay. And what is the, for those that don't know why, what that means in terms of Kiron being half human and half animal, why is that or what is the myth associated with that? Well, in his, in the myth of his origins, Kiron's father was Kronus or Saturn. And his mother was a nymph called Filira. And at the time Kiron was conceived, both these, well Saturn was a God, a member of the Olympian gang. And Filira was a nymph. But like gods and demigods often can shape shift.
部分原因也体现在你所描述的天文学中，以及在奇龙（Kiron）的神话中，他被描绘为半人半兽的形象。没错。在他的形象和形态中，正好反映了这种困境。好的。那么，对于那些不知道的人来说，为什么奇龙是半人半兽，这意味着什么，或者与之相关的神话是什么呢？在他的起源神话中，奇龙的父亲是克罗诺斯（Kronus）或称为土星（Saturn），他的母亲是一个名叫菲莉拉（Filira）的仙女。当奇龙被孕育时，克罗诺斯是神，属于奥林匹斯众神之一，而菲莉拉是一位仙女。不过，像众神和半神一样，他们通常能够改变形态。
So both of them had shape shifted into being in their horse form. And that, they were like that when Kiron was conceived. So when Kiron was born to Filira, when he came out of the womb, as half horse, he was completely horrified. And prayed to the gods to be made into anything other than what she was, namely the mother of a monster, as she saw it. So Kiron was abandoned. And in the time honored manner of myth and legend was found by a shepherd and rescued from certain death and taken to the great God Apollo, who became his foster father. So he was mentored and fostered by Apollo himself, who taught him numerous skills. Like Apollo was also associated with healing. Very significantly, both he and his sister were said to both send and cure plagues.
所以，他们俩都变形为马的形态。而这正是在奇隆被受孕的时候的情形。因此，当奇隆出生于菲莉拉的时候，他是半人半马的样子，这让他的母亲感到极度震惊。她祈求神明把自己变成任何东西，只要不是她眼中的怪物之母。因此，奇隆被遗弃了。然而，按照神话和传说中典型的方式，他被一位牧羊人发现并从必死的命运中救出，被带给大神阿波罗，后者成为他的养父。于是，奇隆在阿波罗的亲自教导和照料下成长。阿波罗还教授他多项技能，值得注意的是，阿波罗不仅与治疗有关联，他和他的姐姐据说还能施加和治愈瘟疫。
And yeah, he was, Kiron. was taught all kinds of survival skills and in a sense. He had almost like one can imagine the kind of initiation rights, the appropriate for a young man, young hero, whatever. And there was an incident where some of the more unruly sentors, the ones that they don't have any Olympian ancestors, they're more like a seething uncontrollable mob that used to rampage through towns and take wine and steal it or take brides and steal them. They're an image of just a raw, unbridled, vital force. And so those are the sentors without any particular Olympian legacy for ancestry. And they often used to fight.
是的，他是奇隆。他学会了各种生存技能。可以想象，这就像是一种适合年轻人、年轻英雄的启蒙仪式。有一次，一些比较不守规矩的半人马袭击了，他们没有任何奥林匹斯神的祖先，更像是一群无法控制的乌合之众，习惯于横冲直撞地掠过城镇，抢夺酒水或者新娘。他们就像是原始、无拘无束的生命力的化身。这些半人马一般没有什么特别的奥林匹斯神背景，他们常常争斗不休。
So in one of those fights, Kiron got wounded by an arrow from Hercules, who was often, there's a lot of freezers statues in the British Museum, some of them from the Parthenon depicting the battle between the Lappaths and the sentors. And Hercules was often involved in those battles. And it's like the kind of time-honoured battle between the so-called civilized and the so-called primitive. So so evocative because of course a lot of that. Description rests on projection. Anyway, Kiron was wounded in the leg, pens which version as to where, but it's either the thile, the knee, another centaur was wounded in the foot, but that's another story.
在一次战斗中，凯隆被赫拉克勒斯的一箭射伤。赫拉克勒斯常常参与这些战斗。大英博物馆里有很多雕塑和浮雕，有些来自帕台农神庙，展示了拉庇泰人和半人马之间的战斗。这些战斗象征着所谓"文明"与所谓"原始"之间的传统较量。这种对立的描述很有感染力，因为很多时候这种说法是基于人的主观想象。不管怎样，凯隆受伤的是腿部，具体位置有不同版本，有说是大腿，有说是膝盖。另一个半人马则是脚部受伤，但那是另一个故事了。
And because the wound was poisoned, he couldn't heal it. And as a demigod, he couldn't die. And so he lived and I think it's either a poladorus or hisiod, it gives the figure of 900 and something years that he lived in mortal agony, unable to heal his own wound, but becoming a great mentor and wise man and healer himself in the process. And then eventually, he changed places with Prometheus. Prometheus, you might know this story, he was chained on a rock because he had mocked Zeus, probably not a very good idea, but that's what he did. Sure. And it's a really interesting story, but too long I think to go into here.
由于伤口中毒，他无法愈合伤口。作为一个半神，他无法死去。于是他活着，根据普拉多罗斯或赫西奥德的记载，他在难以忍受的痛苦中活了900多年，不能治愈自己的伤口，但在此过程中他成为了一位伟大的导师、智者和医者。最终，他与普罗米修斯交换了位置。你可能知道普罗米修斯的故事，他因为嘲弄宙斯而被锁在岩石上，这大概不是个好主意，但他确实这么做了。这是一个非常有趣的故事，但我认为这里说来太长了。
Prometheus is mainly known as the fellow who stole the fire from the gods. And that's like a comic strip version of it. There's a whole background thing which is really thought-provoking, very interesting, and that part is in my book. But anyway, the notion of changing places with somebody that's like the phrase walking a mile in someone's moccasins, you know, so it's awakening of compassion when you can really, really do that. And so this was what freed both of them from their suffering and Kiron was able to die, meaning become immortalized in this context.
普罗米修斯主要被人们知道的是他从众神那里偷火的故事。这就像是一个漫画版本的传说。其实背后还有一个非常发人深省的故事，这部分在我的书中有详细描述。不管怎样，“与某人交换位置”的概念就像是“设身处地为他人着想”这句话的意思。当你真的能够做到这一点时，会唤醒你的同情心。所以正是这种经历解放了他们俩的痛苦，并让奇龙能够死去，在这种背景下也就是获得永生。
In the constellation of Centaurus or some say Sagittarius, there's some scholarly discussion about which of those two constellations best portrays the storylines. And it does seem that Centaurus looks more like the insignia or the story around Pholus. But what is very interesting is that the two centaurs, they're not that far away from each other. I mean in Skyterms, of course it's like miles, but if you look on a star map, the two centaurs actually look or point their arrows towards the scorpion.
在半人马座，或者有人说是人马座，关于这两个星座中哪个更能代表相关故事情节，学术界存在一些讨论。似乎半人马座更像是描绘福鲁斯的标志或故事。不过有趣的是，这两个半人马星座在天空中距离并不算太远。当然，用天文的角度来看，它们之间的距离是以光年计的，但如果你看星图，这两个半人马座实际上都指向天蝎座。
And above the scorpion is the so-called 13th sign, you know, a fukus that cyclically kind of gets reported in the news and causes alarm and despondency because everybody thinks all there's already signs are wrong and everything. But anyway, it's a beautiful picture because both the centaurs and also a fukus are concerned with illness, sickness and healing as well. And you know, the scorpion is also associated with poison and also the power of transformation that partly through the Pluto connection.
在天蝎座之上，有一个所谓的第十三个星座，你知道的，就是蛇夫座。这个星座周期性地出现在新闻中，引起人们的恐慌和沮丧，因为大家会以为自己的星座信息都错了。不过，这其实是一个很美的画面，因为人马座（半人马座）和蛇夫座都与疾病、健康和治愈相关。而天蝎座也与毒药以及通过冥王星联系的转变力量有关。
Because when we look at Kiron and the centaurs, what we can see immediately is that Pluto and Kiron and the centaurs, to me, they belong in the same category because of the astronomy. So all of them, so before Kiron and the centaurs was discovered, Pluto was the only orbit crossing planet at such a high, such a steep angle to the ecliptic. And it was Dan Rudjar who waxed lyrical about that decades before Kiron was discovered. And he spoke about orbit crossing in a similar way that he spoke about comets, that it was like the intrusion of new energy into an old system or the bringing in of the light from out of the dark.
因为当我们观察凯隆星和半人马小行星时，很明显，冥王星、凯隆星和这些半人马小行星在我看来属于同一类，这是由于它们的天文学特性。在凯隆星和半人马小行星被发现之前，冥王星是唯一一个以如此陡峭的角度穿越黄道平面的行星。几十年前，丹·鲁德贾（Dan Rudhyar）就对这一现象赞不绝口。他谈到轨道穿越时的表述类似于他谈论彗星的方式，认为这就像是为旧系统引入新的能量，或是将光明从黑暗中带出。
Also, the purification, he spoke about the sense of something coming in to the solar system, almost like an intervention and bringing new energy. new impulses of energy and so forth. Not Rudolf Steiner, very interesting on the subject of comets because he spoke about a process of astral purification whereby the comet, so what we see as the comet's tail getting brighter and brighter and brighter, he describes that as sort of astral debris being burned up and so like purifying the solar system as it goes, very interesting. So temporarily in 1970, 1989, 1987, 1988, or maybe a bit later, there was just a short period where Kiron got a comet classification because they thought they saw a tail that was brightening but it didn't really come to much.
此外，他谈到了一种净化的概念，指的是某种东西进入太阳系，几乎像是一种干预，带来了新的能量，新的能量脉冲等等。不是关于鲁道夫·施泰纳，而是关于彗星这个主题，他的观点很有趣。他谈到一种星界净化的过程，其中彗星的尾巴我们看到越来越亮，他将其描述为星界碎屑被燃烧殆尽，就像是净化太阳系一样，非常有趣。因此，在1970年、1989年、1987年、1988年或可能稍晚一些时间，有一个短时期内，柯伊伯带天体基隆（Chiron）被暂时归类为彗星，因为他们认为看到了一条变亮的尾巴，但最终并没有发生什么。
Now, what's so interesting about Kiron, it keeps on being reclassified. I think it's now settled because he's now the chief, chief center of the center gang, you know, but before that, he has an asteroid number, a comet number and of course a minor planet appellation. Yeah, right. First name was a planetoid, planetoid, asteroid, comet, then minor planet and then the subcategory of center. Yes, I'm the point is he's kept all of those classifications. He hasn't gone, oh no, no, not that. You know, it's like it all fits, it all kind of works. So a beautiful image of a process of transformation of our own core identity really, that when we're changing from who we thought we were into who we are becoming, you know, we might move from planetoid to asteroid to comet, et cetera.
现在，Kiron 之所以如此有趣，是因为它一直在重新分类。我想现在终于尘埃落定，因为他现在是中心团体的首领。但在此之前，他有一个小行星编号、一个彗星编号，当然还有一个小行星的称号。一开始被叫做小行星，然后是彗星，再到小行星，最后是中心的子类别。我的意思是，他保留了所有这些分类，并没有拒绝其中任何一个。就好像这一切都恰如其分地组合在一起。这就像是我们自身核心身份转变的一个美好过程，当我们从以为的自己变化成正在成为的自己时，我们可能会从小行星变成彗星，依此类推。
And it's not that any of those are wrong, wrong and should be there for thrown away. They're all fine. It's all part of the journey. And to me, that's a very powerful symbol. Yeah, it looks like on the Wikipedia entry, it still has the dual classification. It says, although it was initially called an asteroid and classified only as a minor planet with the designation 2060, Kiron, it was later found to exhibit behavior typical of a comet. Today, it is classified as both a minor planet and a comet and is accordingly also known by the commentary designation 95 p slash Kiron.
这段话翻译成中文是：
这并不是说其中的任何一个是错误的、应该被抛弃的。它们都没问题。这都是旅程的一部分。对我来说，这是一个非常有力的象征。是的，看起来在维基百科的条目中，它仍然保留了双重分类。上面写着，虽然它最初被称为小行星，并仅被分类为编号2060的微型行星奇龙，但后来发现它表现出彗星的典型行为。如今，它被同时分类为微型行星和彗星，因此也被称为彗星编号95P/奇龙。
So it still has this like dual astronomical role, which is really interesting in terms of like and time back in with the mythology of being a half human and half animal. Exactly. And that thing of linking the inner world and the outer world. And yeah, so all of the above really speaks volumes. Also, how I think about the fact, you see, Kiron actually cuts through Saturn's orbit. And now I did make notes about this as to when the last dates were. I think it was with some point in 1992, Kiron went in through Saturn's orbit at about six degrees of Leo.
所以它在天文学上仍然有两重角色，这一角色与它在神话中半人半兽的身份非常有趣地相呼应。同时，它也象征着内心世界和外部世界的连接。以上的这些都意义重大。另外，关于这点，我认为非常有趣的是，凯龙星实际上穿过了土星的轨道。我注意到上一次发生这种情况是在1992年的某个时候，当时凯龙星以大约狮子座六度的位置进入了土星的轨道。
And on the on the it was January 1999, it came back out through the portal of zero and some minutes of Sagittarius. And it will come in and out through those two signs for quite a few passes still. So it has a 50 year orbital cycle, right? That's right. It's just in just over 50 years, but fairly even sort of between 50 and 51ish, but you know, pretty that's pretty regular. Whereas of course, because of the orbital eccentricity, you can't divide the Kiron cycle neatly like you can Saturn and say, oh, or roughly every seven to nine years, you know, you get a big big phone call from Saturn, you know, you can't do that with Kiron because the first quirk can occur any age from, I think it's about five when I was researching this and get it as young as five years old.
在1999年1月，它通过“零点”门户回到来，并进入了射手座的某几分钟。它将在这两个星座之间反复经过多次。它的轨道周期大约是50年，对吗？是的，其实略多于50年，但也差不多是在50到51年之间，非常有规律。然而，由于轨道的偏心率，凯龙星的周期无法像土星那样简单地划分，比如说大约每七到九年你会收到一次来自土星的重要信号。对于凯龙星来说，这就不行了，因为第一次的“惊喜”可能会在任何年龄发生，据我所知，研究表明最早可以发生在五岁。
Or you can get it in your early 20s. So it depends on which sign Kiron is in. So it's because of its highly elliptical orbit, it's more like an oval rather than a circle. Exactly. And it moves through some signs of the zodiac very quickly, like Virgo and Libra, and about two years. Correct. Whereas it moves through other signs like Pisces and Areas very slowly and takes eight years. Correct. Absolutely right. And there you can see that because well, Kiron actually moves through the orbit of Saturn physically.
或者你也可能在二十出头的时候获得它。这取决于凯龙星所处的星座位置。由于它的轨道是高度椭圆形的，更像一个椭圆而不是一个圆。这就意味着它在某些星座，比如处女座和天秤座，移动得非常快，大约只需要两年。没错。而在其他星座，比如双鱼座和白羊座，它移动得非常慢，需要八年。完全正确。而且你可以看到，因为凯龙星实际上穿过了土星的轨道。
And then at the app Helion, in other words, its furthest distance from the Sun, it goes way up to Uranus, but doesn't actually cross its orbital path. It goes into what's called what's rather confusingly called the sphere of Uranus. It goes to the inside, but not actually right across the mean average orbital path. And so there it's, you know, it's kind of really obvious because Kiron takes, I mean Saturn takes roughly two and a half years to go through one sign. And Uranus takes about seven to eight years. Likewise when Kiron's really near Saturn or inside Saturn, it'll go really quickly through its signs.
当它位于远日点，也就是最远离太阳的地方时，它会到达天王星的附近，但并不直接穿越天王星的轨道。它进入了一个被称为天王星球体的区域，这个名字有点令人困惑。它只是穿过了轨道的内侧，但并没有真正跨越平均轨道路径。在这个位置时，很明显的是，土星大约需要两年半的时间穿越一个星座，而天王星则需要大约七到八年的时间。同样，当凯龙星非常接近土星或在土星轨道内时，它会非常快速地穿越星座。
And when it's approaching the app Helion, it'll be it'll be long, like Uranus seven to eight years, you see? Okay. So let's see. So going back to the mythology, it seems like two of the main some of the main key words that astrologers have developed, especially from mythology are ideas of Kiron being the wounded healer and that being like a major recurring motif that astrologers use when they're discussing Kiron. Yeah. And that's partially due to the idea that it was, he was somebody that was poisoned, but then because he was partially immortal, he couldn't die, but he also had the skills to heal other people without being able to heal himself. Correct.
当它接近应用程序Helion时，它会很长，就像天王星那样，持续七到八年，你明白吗？好的。那么，让我们来看看。回到神话中，似乎占星家根据神话发展出的一些关键词中，两个主要的概念是奇龙被称为“受伤的治疗者”，这成为占星家在讨论奇龙时反复出现的主题。这部分是因为神话中他被毒害了，但由于他是半不朽的，无法死去，同时也拥有治疗他人的能力，却无法治愈自己。对吧。
Now there's another thing, which in fact, this was where I was going when I spoke about the fact that Kiron goes through the orbit of Saturn. To me, that particular astronomy also tells us something when we link it with our knowledge of astrology. So if we think of Saturn as established structures, I mean, obviously that's not a keyword description of Saturn, but the meaning of Saturn includes reference to the established structures, you know, history, tradition, the status quo, what we take for granted. Also our psychological patterning and defenses, whether they're known to us or unknown to us, and so on.
现在还有另一件事情，其实这是我刚才提到凯龙星穿过土星轨道时想说的。对我而言，这种特定的天文学现象结合我们对占星学的理解，可以给我们一些启示。如果我们将土星视为已建立的结构，尽管这不是土星的关键词描述，但土星的意义包括了对已建立结构的参考，比如历史、传统、现状以及我们视为理所当然的事物。同样地，这也涉及到我们的心理模式和防御机制，无论是我们已知的还是未知的，等等。
And so when we're in a process of change, it's very painful for the ego. Even if it's a change we've been working for or intending or working towards, it can still be very, very painful when you really take yourself to the edge of your structures. As you get to know about them, it can be exception painful. And so there's a way in which this endless looping around the Kiron does through the orbit of Saturn, through the orbit of Saturn, it makes me think of kind of needing bread or digging in the garden or something. Something has to be cultivated.
当我们处于变革的过程中时，对自我来说可能是非常痛苦的。即使这是一种我们一直在努力实现或期望的改变，当你真正把自己推到既有结构的边缘时，依然可能感到非常痛苦。当你开始了解这些结构时，痛苦甚至可能更加强烈。因此，就像凯龙星在土星轨道中不断循环一样，这让我联想到揉面或者在花园中挖掘时的一种感觉。有些东西必须被培养。
And I think there is where the theme of the heart comes in because, you know, in many different traditions, it's pointed out that the heart be that the simple feeling human heart or the heart chakra with its internal energy connections, that is the place from which opposites can be reconciled. And hey, a clear pair of opposites is Saturn and Uranus. So the status quo, and that which turns the status quo upside down, including internally. So that can be a shock of any kind, including just the regular ordinary shocks that we meet through our life in the process of growing up and becoming socialized and all the rest of it.
我认为这就是心的主题出现的地方，因为在许多不同的传统中都指出，不论是简单的人类心灵，还是心轮及其内在的能量连接，都是能够调和对立的地方。一个明显的对立就是土星和天王星，它们代表现状和颠覆现状的力量，包括内在的颠覆。这种对立可能是任何形式的冲击，包括我们在成长和社会化过程中遇到的普通冲击。
And so Kiron kind of goes looping through and connecting the visible and the invisible in a process of kind of spiritually maturing. So that may or may not have anything to do with being sick or ill or wounded per se, but it might do. There's a correlate to that which is that many people experience major, major awakenings as a direct result of illness and physical suffering and wounds of various kinds. It's incredibly common. I'm sure all of you listening, we probably know at least one person, probably several, who've had those kinds of experiences.
因此，凯隆（Kiron）在一个精神成长的过程中，不断地在可见和不可见之间循环连接。这可能与生病、受伤没有直接关系，但也可能有。然而，很多人在经历疾病、身体痛苦或各种创伤后，会有重大的觉醒。这是非常常见的。我相信所有在听的朋友们，可能都认识至少一个人，甚至是好几个人，经历过这样的事情。
You really, you really are taken right out of the familiar, visible, known world. If you have an experience of very severe pain. And if you work with that in whatever way makes sense for you, it can really, really be like your teacher. And as that has been very much part of my life, I think that's also one of the, one of the reasons I resonated immediately with Kiron because this might sound a strange thing to say, but I almost feel like like the path of working with suffering, our own or others, it is a particular kind of spiritual path.
当你经历极度疼痛时，你真的会被带离熟悉、可见和已知的世界。如果你用对自己有意义的方式来应对这种疼痛，它真的可以成为你的老师。由于这种经历在我的生活中占据了很大一部分，我立刻对凯隆（Kiron）产生了共鸣，因为尽管这听起来可能有些奇怪，但我几乎觉得，与自身或他人的痛苦共同经历，是一种特殊的精神道路。
There are lessons we get from our own illnesses and physical sufferings as well as emotional sufferings that we don't get in any other way. Right. Empathy is a really major component that sometimes comes from suffering. They've been thinking about lately in reading one person's biography is that his repeated instances of loss in his life had allowed him to cultivate a sense of empathy that he might not have had otherwise. Exactly right. Exactly right.
我们从自身的疾病和身体痛苦以及情感痛苦中得到的教训，是其他方式无法获得的。对吧？同情心往往是痛苦带来的一个重要要素。我最近在读一本人的传记时想到，他生活中反复的失去经历让他培养了一种可能在其他情况下不会有的同情心。完全正确。完全正确。
And very often, you know, in the case where Kiron in the horoscope can be seen to symbolize a really particular gift that somebody has that's usually a gift that has been bestowed on the back of a lot of suffering. And you can't kind of manipulate that and say, oh, let me look at my chart and see, see what gift my Kiron placement is going to give me so I can get to that as quick as possible. Right. Like a shortcut or something. Exactly right. Because it's bestowed. You can't kind of fall. You can't fake that.
在占星中，凯龙星常常象征着一个人与生俱来的特殊天赋，而这种天赋往往是在大量痛苦经历的基础上获得的。你不能试图操控这一点，比如通过查看自己的星盘来发现凯龙星的位置，希望能快速找到自己的天赋，走捷径。这种天赋是被赋予的，你不能假装或者欺骗地拥有它。
Okay. There's no cheat codes for Kiron. So what are the, so let's talk maybe about an instance to give a concrete example. I mean, I obviously that makes me think of your example when you're a ten of having that injury and being in that cast. But then as a result of that, you know, going to the library and reading a lot and coming across an astrology book and having that sort of initiation into astrology through that.
好的，对于Kiron（半人马星系1号）的学习没有什么捷径。所以我们可以讨论一个具体例子来更好地说明这一点。我马上想到你在十岁时受伤的经历，当时你要打石膏。然而，这次意外促使你前往图书馆，阅读了大量书籍，并偶然读到一本关于占星术的书籍，从而开启了你对占星术的初步了解。
I did a, there's a similar example earlier this year when the astrologer Robert Zoller passed away. I released an old interview that I did with him ten years ago and he similarly talked about being a very sickly child. And one of the only things that brought him pleasure that he could do was just read fairy tales and things like that. And through that, he eventually got into astrology.
今年早些时候，类似的事情发生在占星师罗伯特·佐勒去世时。我发布了一段十年前我与他的旧访谈。在访谈中，他也提到了自己小时候身体虚弱。少数能让他感到快乐的事情就是阅读童话故事和类似的书籍。通过这些，他最终对占星学产生了兴趣。
That seems like an interesting, that seems to get to the core of sort of part of what you're talking about in terms of sometimes people having a pain or an experience of suffering, but something that allows them then to find something else that then eventually they're able to use to help other people in some way or that becomes part of their personal journey. Absolutely.
这听起来很有趣，似乎触及了你所谈论的一部分核心，即人们有时会经历痛苦或苦难，但这种经历能让他们找到某种东西，然后最终能够用来帮助他人，或者成为他们个人旅程的一部分。完全同意。
Yes. And a variant on that theme is that where, where you find chiron, it does sometimes indicate things that we do extremely well for others, but we can't do for ourselves. That's like chiron not being able to heal his wound. And you know, those things range from just, from just amusing and bothersome to really, really big life patterns.
好的，一个相关的变体是，有时候你会发现丘比伦的位置可以指示我们在某些方面能够为他人做得非常好，但却无法为自己做到。这就像丘比伦无法治愈自己的伤口。你知道，这些事情可能从有趣和烦人的小事，一直到非常重大的生活模式。
That often do eventually come to a crisis in the person who's doing for others what they can't do for themselves has to kind of turn the ship around for their own survival sometimes. Yeah. Like I'm thinking of, let's say like a chiron connected with relationships at the seventh house and maybe somebody that does marriage counseling for other people, but who themselves maybe struggles with relationships for a while or just reason or another?
经常，最终会导致一个危机，就是那些为别人做他们无法为自己做的事情的人，有时候必须为了自身的生存而“掉转船头”。是的，我在想，比如说有个海伦（Chiron）与第七宫的关系相连，可能有一个人为别人提供婚姻咨询，但他自己可能也在一段时间内，或由于某种原因，在处理自己的人际关系上遇到困难。
Exactly. In fact, I can even think of a couple of examples of exactly that. And very poignantly, who got into that the marriage guidance counseling work on the back of an extremely painful separation from her husband. And so, in a sense, she remains subliminally brokenhearted and she is genuinely able, she has helped a lot of people.
确实如此。实际上，我甚至能想到几个这样的例子。其中一个非常典型的例子，是某人因与丈夫经历了一次非常痛苦的分离，而投入了婚姻指导咨询的工作。从某种意义上说，她内心仍然隐隐感到伤心，但正因为如此，她能够真诚地帮助他人，并已经帮助了很多人。
And you know, that seems to be what happens and how it works. And then a further level of awakening might well be, it's like, wow, what am I doing? And needing to redirect that energy to include oneself in the kind of healing field. That's a very common. And in fact, often that happens around the chiron return, you know.
你知道，这似乎就是事情如何发生和运作的。而当进一步觉醒时，可能会有一种感觉：“哇，我在做什么？”这时需要将能量重新导向，把自己也纳入到一种治愈的范围中。这种情况非常常见。实际上，这种觉醒往往发生在“小行星凯龙星回归”时期。
The process of using that to help other people or the process of finally trying to turn that inside and trying to heal one's own wounds. It can be either like what I've noticed around the chiron return. If people have a healing vocation of any kind, that's a very common time for it to surface.
利用它来帮助他人，或者最终尝试向内转化并治愈自己的伤痛的过程。这就是我在克戎回归时期注意到的现象。如果一个人在任何领域从事疗愈工作，这个时间段通常会是这些能力浮现的时候。
Now, it might sound kind of late in one's life to be suddenly picking up a healing vocation, but most people have known all along that they had that, but for one reason or another didn't follow it. And at the chiron return, it's like, okay, now it's now or never, and I'm going to do it.
现在，在人生的这个阶段突然开始从事治愈职业，听起来可能有点晚了，但大多数人一直都知道自己有这种能力，只是由于种种原因没有去追求。而在凯龙星回归的时候，就像是到了一个关键时刻，要么现在开始，要么永远放弃，因此他们决定去做。
The other variation is that people who have already been working in any of the fields of healing. I'm using that in a very broad, generic way. It's not uncommon for them to get to the chiron return and either give it up completely or retrain in a parallel but similar field.
另一种情况是，那些已经在某些治疗领域工作的人。我这里所说的“治疗”是一个非常广泛和笼统的概念。这些人在遭遇凯龙星回归时，完全放弃原来的工作或是在一个相似的平行领域重新培训，这种情况并不少见。
Or take a slightly different road within what they're doing, like maybe decide to write a book or become a trainer, etc. And either way, doing a lot of reflecting on their work and it's very, very common that, oh, and around the chiron return, this I do want to mention.
或者在他们正在做的事情中选择一条稍微不同的道路，比如决定写一本书或成为一名培训师等。不管怎样，花时间好好反思他们的工作是非常常见的事情，哦，我确实想提到，这通常发生在凯龙回归（chiron return）时期。
Of course, one can't generalize about when women have their menopause, but I think it's fair to say that averagely, at least from an experience of people I've spoken with, averagely, it's somewhere around 50 years. So if it is, this is a really useful piece of information because if the menopause coincides with the chiron return, astrologically what we can say is that around that time, because every single chiron aspect that is experienced from the chiron return onwards is second time round. So it's the chiron return of every single aspect to every single thing on your chart, not only the 50 year old thing.
当然，我们不能一概而论女性绝经的确切年龄，但就我与之交谈过的人们的经验来看，平均来说，大约是在50岁左右。如果确实如此，这就提供了一个非常有用的信息。因为如果绝经与凯龙星回归同时发生，从占星学的角度来看，我们可以说，在此期间，每一颗凯龙星相位的体验都是第二次出现。这意味着你的星盘上每一个相位都经历了一次凯龙星的回归，不仅仅是在50岁时的事情。
So what's relevant about that is that there is this extraordinary process of recapitulation, of recycling, experience with chiron. By the way, he is not the only planet, he's not a planet, but for brevity, I call him a planet. He's not the only planet where you will find this if you look deeply enough, you can find it with Saturn to some degree, but it's very precise with chiron, almost ridiculously so sometimes, and in the first few years after the chiron return, of course, what's repeating is the period of the pre-cognitive life.
这句话的重点在于，海伦星（Chiron）具有一种特别的过程，即经验的重现和循环。顺便说一下，他并不是唯一一个这样表现的天体，虽然他不是行星，但为了简便起见，我称他为行星。如果你深入研究，也可以在土星上发现到某种程度的相似，但在海伦星上这种现象非常明显，有时甚至达到让人难以置信的精确度。在海伦星返回的最初几年，重复的经历通常是我们感知能力出现之前的生活阶段的经历。
So after birth and before we've learned to speak and walk. So the memories from those times, most people don't remember much from that time at all, because it's literally like as we begin to speak and move, it changes the wiring of our brain to the cognitive stage, and those memories are often present or can be retrieved if necessary or occur in dreams, whatever. But the really, really early stuff, even including pre-natal, it's like the chiron process opens the door on that, to the extent that it might be needed in one's process, meaning there might be patterning that originates back there, that is still holding you back, or that you are still hurting from, or you don't understand.
在出生后和学会说话、走路之前，那段时间的记忆，大多数人几乎不记得，因为当我们开始说话和活动时，大脑的连接会发生变化，进入认知阶段。那些记忆通常在必要时可以被唤起，或者在梦中浮现。然而，特别早期的记忆，包括在母亲子宫里的记忆，就像希龙疗愈过程一样，开启了一扇门，帮助我们了解那些可能影响现在生活的早期模式。这些模式可能依然困扰着你，或者导致你的痛苦，或者让你感到困惑。
So the chiron process, if you meet it in a very straight-up way, with healing practices, meditations, etc., which give you the chance to open your consciousness wide enough to really, really experience what's there, even if you don't understand it. It is amazing, because it's like the veil is pulled back and you get to see and feel and know absolutely what was going on. And by the way, this doesn't stop. That will go on for the rest of your life.
因此，Chiron 过程是这样的：如果你以非常直接的方式去面对它，并结合一些治愈练习、冥想等方法，让自己有机会足够广泛地打开意识，去真正深入地体验其中的一切，即便你不理解它。这非常神奇，因为就像面纱被揭开了一样，你可以完全看到、感受到和了解到底发生了什么。而且，顺便说一下，这个过程不会停止，它将持续你的一生。
Any of you who are on a journey of awakening or healing, you will find that this chiron process I'm talking about is it's a major accompaniment. It's like having a friendly centaur coming along with us in our process, you know, and the way that you work with your own process, pretty much guaranteed to change around the chiron return, because pre-chiron return most of us, or we want just just fix it. We want to fix it and be normal, or be whatever it is, we think we should be, but just to fix it.
正在进行觉醒或疗愈旅程的你们，会发现我提到的凯龙过程是一个重要的伴随。这就像有一个友好的半人马与我们一道同行。在这个过程中，你处理自己问题的方式几乎肯定会在凯龙回归时发生变化，因为在凯龙回归之前，大多数人都只想解决问题。我们只是想修复它，变得正常，或是变成我们认为自己应该成为的样子，但终究只是想修复它。
And for many people, it's only once the chiron return has happened, that we really get to understand, wow, this whole journey is truly about accepting what is. I know that sounds like a cliche, but think of the heart theme with chiron. Also a little mythic detail, there was this bird called a Griffin, which used to pick out the liver of Framithius every day, and then it would grow back again in the night.
对于许多人来说，只有在凯龙星回归之后，我们才能真正理解这整个人生旅程其实是关于接受现实。我知道这听起来像句老套话，但试想一下凯龙星与内心主题的关系。还有一个小神话细节，有一种叫做狮鹫的鸟，它每天都会啄食普罗米修斯的肝脏，到了晚上肝脏又会再生。
And so there he was, as if it wasn't enough to be chained on this rock, he had this bird, pecking his liver. And after the changing places, the Griffin, his name of this bird, it was shot through the heart and gotten rid of. So that's even symbolically, it can be like that's a nagging self-critical voice that we have to work with in some way or another in our process. And it's as if, around the chiron return, the whole energy of all that starts to change.
于是，他就在那里，仿佛被锁链锁在岩石上还不够，又有一只鸟啄食他的肝脏。这只鸟名叫格里芬，并在某种情况下，它被射穿心脏，随之消失。从象征上看，这只鸟就像我们内心无休止自我批评的声音，促使我们在某种程度上必须去应对此类问题。而在奇龙归来的时候，仿佛所有这些情绪和能量开始转变。
And it's as if healing begins to occur on whatever level, that including making contact with the right, the right healer, the right of whatever persuasion, meeting somebody who has a really important clue for you in the form of a book or a healing practice and so forth. And you can feel you're on the stream of healing and it's a tremendous grace.
翻译成中文是：
这就像是无论在哪个层面上，治愈开始发生。无论是与合适的治疗者接触，还是无论哪种方式，遇到一个拥有重要线索的人，通过一本书或一种治疗方法等等。你会感到自己处在治愈的过程之中，这是一种巨大的恩典。
And I think it's, and you know, it's this shift from, I just have to fix this, to recognizing that in fact, our whole life is a healing journey and becoming more and more skilled and more and more gracious and empathic about how we meet that. That's what brings also the gift of healing to other people. So that's some of the ways I would understand this notion of the wounded healer.
我认为，这种转变是从“我只需解决这个问题”到意识到“事实上，我们的整个生命旅程就是一个疗愈的过程”。我们在如何面对这个过程时变得越来越有技巧、越来越优雅、更富有同情心。这不仅疗愈了自己，也带给他人疗愈的礼物。这就是我对“受伤疗愈者”这个概念的一些理解。
That's brilliant and that makes sense just because it's only after that first 50 years that transiting chiron has done a complete lap all the way around your chart and you've experienced all the possible aspects and permutations of chiron's aspects both to its natal position as well as to other planets in your chart that you can really look back and reflect on that full cycle and understand it. Exactly. Exactly.
这真是太精彩了，这也很合理，因为只有在最初的50年之后，过境的小行星凯龙才完成了绕你的星盘一周的运行。在这期间，你经历了凯龙与其本命位置及星盘上其他行星之间所有可能的相位和变化。只有这样，你才能真正地回顾和反思这个完整的周期并理解它。没错，正是这样。
So, and I'm Mr. Linky an important one. If we develop the capacity to roll with this sacred healing journey that we're all on because every single person in some way or another is going. to suffer in their lives and it's not just about fixing it, it's about the compassion to let the energies roll in the way that they need to if that makes sense. Now, I've noticed that around the menopause, women who do have that kind of a practice, if cultivated that or are starting to do seem to have less symptoms of you know terrible pre-menstrual tension or mood swings or night sweats or any of these things and it seems as if people who are really frightened of their own process or haven't yet had the good fortune to make the right connections to support them in that risk, somatizing some of the very powerful physical experiences that will come through to a woman at menopause because if we take the year of the chiron return as a kind of a birth, a rebirth then we can take the year before that kicks in exact as the recap of the pre-natal time.
好的，我是林奇先生，这里有一个重要的观点。如果我们能够发展出适应这个神圣治疗旅程的能力，那么每个人在生命中必然会经历痛苦，这不仅仅是解决问题，而是要有足够的同情心，让能量以其需要的方式流动。如果这能说得通的话，我注意到在更年期阶段，那些有相关修炼习惯或开始这样做的女性似乎较少出现严重的经前紧张、情绪波动或夜间盗汗等症状。而对于那些对自己的变化过程感到害怕或者还没有机会建立支持他们的人际联系的人，可能会把这些非常强烈的身体体验转化为躯体化的症状。因为如果我们把凯龙星回归之年视作一种重生，那么我们可以把前一年的时间看作是胎儿期经历的回顾。
And there can be some extremely strange physical sensations that come forth when that's recapitulating and you know in traditional healing systems they have a huge wisdom about the pre-natal life and its significance and you know in Western medicine they do have some of that but approach it in a very different way, basically seeming to always be looking for what's wrong not perhaps understanding the spiritual significance of what's going on and the the process of being beset with symptoms can be hugely alleviated for many women if they are ready to undertake this kind of a healing journey and obviously some people do really have really symptoms that really need attending to so I'm not recommending that you just ignore them but I know from working with clients that there's something about connecting in with one's own cosmic rhythms that it does the body good as well we forget that maybe sometimes right yeah it's hard sometimes when certainly there's illnesses that can be psychosomatic and origin but then other times there's sometimes just physical illnesses and ailments that people have that are independent of that to some extent.
当那种回忆发生时，会有一些非常奇怪的身体感觉。在传统的治疗体系中，对于胎前生活及其重要性有着深厚的智慧。在西方医学中也有一些相关的理解，但通常以一种不同的方式进行，基本上总是在寻找问题，而可能不太理解事情的精神意义。对于许多女性来说，如果她们准备好经历这样的治疗旅程，症状带来的困扰可以大大减轻。当然，有些人确实有需要关注的症状，所以我并不是建议忽视它们。通过与自己内在的宇宙节奏建立联系，身体也会因此受益，有时我们可能会忘记这一点，对吧？有时候的确很困难，因为有些疾病显然可能是心理源起的，但与此同时，也存在一些只是单纯的身体疾病和不适，与心理因素关系不大。
Yeah um so when I back up one of the things you really focus on in your book and spend a lot of time talking about is just a notion that the house position of kairan as potentially being an area of life that is initially blocked wounded or not functioning in let's say top capacity to some extent and that being maybe ground zero or like the starting point for understanding the transiting kairan cycle and its aspect especially back to itself is understanding so we talked about and we gave an example of like kairan in the seventh house and woundings surrounding relationships but could we talk about some other house placements for example of kairan and how that might manifest in an initial instance of wounding in some some way or just to give some examples yes.
嗯，是这样的，当我回顾你的书时，很明显你花了很多时间在一个重要的概念上，就是凯隆星所在的宫位可能代表了一个生活领域，这个领域在一开始可能是受阻的、受伤的或者在某种程度上没有发挥出最佳状态。这可能是理解凯隆星的周期及其影响的起点，尤其是当它回到自身的位置时。
我们谈到了一个例子，就是凯隆星在第七宫，与人际关系相关的创伤。那么，我们能不能再讨论下凯隆星在其他宫位的一些情况呢？比如说，这可能会在某种程度上初显出创伤。我们可以给几个例子来说明这个问题吗？
Um the other thing I'd want to add to that is the the house position of the ruling planet of kairan's sign that really speaks volumes and you know it's as if if you understand a bit or have have got a felt connection with kairan in terms of some of the themes that it embodies and portrays with a very little bit of astrological of other astrological knowledge I mean house sign aspects dispositor or ruler that kind of thing with with just that you've got enough information to begin to help you to see because the the manifestations of how kairan shows can vary a lot and very interesting sometimes it's as if they're not visible to the to the person they can have studied kairan read all the books seven classes and they don't get it they're not seeing it and that's part of a kind of defense I think because it's quite likely that there is perhaps an area of pain that's been covered over there.
嗯，我想补充的是，恺龙星座的主星所在宫位非常重要，它能传达很多信息。如果你对恺龙所代表和展现的一些主题有一定的理解或者有情感上的联系，即使只具备一些基础的占星学知识，比如宫位、星座、相位以及行星的影响等，这些就足够帮助你开始看清。因为恺龙的表现形式变化多样，而且有时非常有趣。甚至有时，这些表现似乎对个人来说是不可见的，他们可能已经研究过恺龙，读过所有相关书籍，上过七节课，但仍然无法理解，看不见。这可能是一种防御机制，因为很可能有某个痛苦的领域被掩盖住了。
Um it doesn't have to be um a specific actual wound like you know in my case erbrocan bone or a trauma you know of abuse of various kinds and so forth but it can be where there is this kind of existential pain which fundamentally spiritually I feel is like that's where the deepest sense of disconnection from the great source will actually register now that can show itself through all kinds of other things all kinds of other quirks but at base it's our felt alienation from our spiritual source and that's where the healing comes from and so there's not one way of doing that or not even one right way but it's that you know we're the thing that we struggle with we gradually peel back the layers and peel back the layers and then realize wow you know this is what's underneath this and there we have something to work with like for example and oh this is an example from my own life.
嗯，不一定要是具体的伤口，比如我这种情况，可能是骨折或者各种形式的虐待创伤之类的东西，但是也可能是某种存在主义的痛苦。我觉得这种痛苦在精神层面上，是我们与伟大源头之间最深的断裂感。这种断裂可能会通过各种其他的表现形式显现出来，但本质上它是我们与精神源头的疏离感，而这就是治愈的起点。所以，这并不是只有一种方式来解决这种问题，也没有一种绝对正确的方法。我们所要做的是，与之抗争，逐渐剥开层层障碍，然后意识到“哇，这就是隐藏在表面的东西”，这样我们才能有所作为。例如，这就是我自己生活中的一个例子。
So I have chiron insurgitarious I think I mentioned it and my Jupiter is very closely conjunct my I see which by the way I call the I don't see because that's often how it is it's lying hidden you know right and it was very specific whole trail in. my life for me so as I mentioned I was born in radija which became Zimbabwe on one level witnessing that change from radija to Zimbabwe it was like an experience of rebirth there was a newborn country and everything everything had changed and it was as if decades centuries of history had just been washed away absolutely ecstatically wonderful really had so many is so many interesting experiences learned so much etc etc now when things started to go wrong in Zimbabwe I can't begin to tell you what I went through it was like I had no sense of distance from this I was profoundly identified so that's ruler of chiron on the fourth house you know the home the country the family and all that and I cried endlessly I did rituals I did all kinds of things and then it was at one uek I had a conversation with the wonderful astrologer Brankas Mankavitsch you know her yeah and she said to me um she said one thing I can't do the accent you'll have to imagine it she said one thing you and I share it's homeland pain and she said people who haven't lost their homeland as she had said they can't understand what this is but she said you understand it and I understand it it's called homeland pain I never forgot that and it's as if once I identified that there was a long long period of needing to work inwardly to reclaim the energy of necessity that had been invested in that and and so I tend to get a lot of clients who have homeland pain or who have worked with very painful issues to do with either they are mixed race or there's an issue there about racial origins and how they feel about that and so forth to very very fourth house all of it so that's the ruler of kiron in the fourth yeah I have it's one of the things even though I don't work a lot with asteroids it's not that I don't believe in them because I have kiron conjunct the icy and while it's not the only thing in my chart that would indicate this and you can see it traditionally or classically as well but having kiron conjunct the icy losing my father at the age of five to cancer and that being like an early experience of just like let's say you know loss of a parent as being like an early kiron type experience of wounding or what have you I could identify with that.
所以我有凯龙（Chiron）反叛星（Insurgitarious），我想我之前提到过，而我的木星非常紧密地合相在天底（IC），顺便说一句，我称之为“我看不到”，因为它经常是这样，隐藏在那里，你知道的，对我一生中产生了非常具体的影响。正如我提到的，我出生在罗得西亚（Radija），后来变成了津巴布韦。从一个层面上讲，见证从罗得西亚到津巴布韦的变化，仿佛是重生的体验，有一个新生的国家，一切都改变了，仿佛几十年、几百年的历史被冲刷掉了，真的是极其美妙的经历，有那么多有趣的事情发生，学到了许多等等等等。
然而，当津巴布韦开始出现问题时，我无法开始诉说自己经历了什么，我与之无法保持距离感，感觉深深地被认同。所以这就是凯龙在第四宫的主宰，你知道的，家、国家、家庭等等，并且我不断地哭泣，进行了许多仪式，以及其他所有事情。有一次，我和一个很棒的占星家布兰卡斯·曼卡维奇（Brankas Mankavitsch）交谈过，你知道她吗？她对我说，有件事我无法模仿她的口音，你需要自己想象，她说有件事情你和我共享，那就是家园痛苦。她说那些没有失去家园的人无法理解这种感受，但她说你理解它，我也理解它，这叫做“家园痛苦”。我从未忘记过这个，就像一旦我确定了这个之后，我需要长时间地向内工作，以重新获得投入到其中的能量需要。因此，我倾向于接待很多客户，他们有家园痛苦，或者忙于那些非常痛苦的问题，比如他们混血儿身份，或种族起源以及对此感受如何的相关问题，所有这些都与第四宫非常相关。
所以这是凯龙在第四宫的统治，我通常虽然不太多地与小行星一起工作，但我并不是不相信它们，因为我有凯龙与天底合相，尽管这不是我星盘中唯一体现这一点的因素，你也可以传统或经典地看到这一点。但凯龙与天底合相让我在五岁时因癌症失去父亲，这就像是早期经历了一次失去父母的体验，是一种早期凯龙式的创伤体验或其他，你可以认同这种感受。
I mean there's other placements like having the sun conjuncts Saturn or other things like that that are also relevant but it's interesting how the asteroids can layer on additional nuances of interpretation yeah additional detail what I've also found about kiron it's as if kiron and in fact any of the centaurs they like portals to the underworld the realm of death so at one or other point in our lives all of us become aware of death and physical mortality and with kiron there in the in the fourth I would imagine that it was that very young experience of loss just may have opened the doors to that whether or not the rest of your family spoke about it in those terms you know right yeah so that I mean those so those are really concrete examples of like in your case like your you know place of origin and and living situation in homeland and also ideas of ancestry and things like that is other fourth house topics or for me concrete things of like parents if we're talking about other houses the first house seems a little obvious that it could be a more bodily issues or struggling with health or illness issues perhaps indeed indeed it's often with kiron in the first house and that the person is often engaging with their own sense of woundedness whether it's obvious or not.
我的意思是，还有一些其他星位组合，比如太阳与土星合相等，这些也是很重要的。不过，很有趣的是，小行星的存在可以为解读增添更多层面的细微差异。我也发现，关于凯龙星，它甚至可以被看作是通往阴间或死亡领域的门户。在我们生命中的某个时刻，我们都会意识到死亡和身体的有限性。如果凯龙星落在第四宫，我可以想象那是在非常年轻的时候经历了一次失去的遭遇，可能会因此打开认知死亡的大门，而不论你家庭里的其他人是否以这种方式谈论过这件事。是的，那些就是与你的出身地、生活环境以及家乡和祖先观念有关的第四宫的具体例子。对于我来说，具体的事物可能就是父母。如果讨论其他宫位，第一宫似乎显而易见地可能涉及身体问题或者健康、疾病方面的挑战。实际上，当凯龙星在第一宫的时候，个人常常会关注于自身的创伤感，无论这是否显而易见。
I mean some people even might have a physical deformity that they even might successfully hide but which limits their life and things like that is often very specific there and then if it's kiron in the seventh house that can be a theme where the person is always looking after other people there might have even made a profession out of it if not it's something to be curious about because there is you know the there's a kind of triad around kiron's energy in terms of how it might express there's the healer and there's the the one who is afflicted and then there's also the one who does the afflicting so like that I forget the name of the guy who did this this is back from the 1970s now remember victim and persecutor and healer you remember that wasn't he a victim and persecutor it was this it's now called the something rather triangle you do see that around kiron.
这段话的意思是，有些人可能有身体上的缺陷，他们可能成功地把这种缺陷隐藏起来，但这种缺陷限制了他们的生活。在某些情况下，如果凯龙星（Kiron）位于第七宫，可能意味着这个人总是在照顾其他人，甚至可能将其发展成职业。如果没有，这种情况也值得关注。因为围绕凯龙星的能量有一个三角关系，它可能以不同的方式表现：治愈者、受难者以及施害者。我忘记了那个提出这一理论的人的名字，这是1970年代的事。你还记得“受难者、施害者和治愈者”吗？这现在被称作某种三角关系，在凯龙星的讨论中，经常会提到这种情况。
I was horrified to when I was you know researching in a bit more and in a bit more detached way not not just with my own process and my clients and so forth I was pretty shocked to find a number of famous serial killers who all had extremely strong kiron's but they did it by doing the wounding and it was really then that I really began to understand how in the main people who wound do so on the back of their own wounding so when there's pain there that just isn't processed there's a kind of knee jerk reaction to put it out there to make somebody feel how you feel okay so that can all be totally unconscious and that is the most dangerous thing about unprocessed suffering is it will go and do it to somebody else that's really interesting if the pressure ratchets up and of course that's what history is made of you know wars come and people are pumped up as heroes and they're paid by people who just you know want to take over from a motivation of greed greed and money and exploitation and you know territory and all that kind of thing or internecine struggles of one kind or another and that it's a whole kind of bloodletting thing which brings the opportunity for people to just act out the unresolved pain that they feel inside themselves by inflicting it on somebody else.
当我以一种更加客观、深入的方式进行研究时，而不仅仅是通过我自己的经历和我所接触的客户，我震惊地发现，有许多著名的连环杀手都拥有非常强烈的“奇戎”特质，但他们通过伤害他人来实现这一点。正是这时我才真正开始理解，很多伤害别人的人往往是因为自身的创伤未被处理。痛苦没有得到处理时，人们会条件反射般地将这种痛苦施加给他人，让别人感受到自己内心的感受。这样的行为有可能完全处于无意识状态，而未被处理的痛苦最危险的地方就在于它会无意识地传递给他人。如果压力增大，这种情况就会愈发明显，实际上这也是历史的构成，你知道，战争爆发，人们被鼓吹为英雄，他们背后的驱动则往往是那些出于贪婪、金钱、剥削和领土等动机的人。这种内斗和流血事件为人们提供了一个通过伤害他人来宣泄自己内心未解创伤的机会。
That's a really interesting point so it means in terms of chironic wounding not everybody's gonna like grow up and you know take that wound and then like become a shaman and start helping other people some people are just going to become the one who does that to other people in a negative sense I looked up the triangle and looks like it's called the Carpeman drama triangle and the three pieces are like the victim the rescuer or the persecutor yeah yeah that's yes that's exactly it okay yeah so there's a similar one with chiron and so you know from one point of view even if it was possible to luck switch switch off the world and all its wars and everything going on to just switch it off it would probably take hundreds of years to process all of the suffering that's already been generated and in that sense um finding the way to process one's own suffering and perhaps even a bit wider than that meaning to take on even more then just your own little share perhaps through through prayer through ritual through whatever means makes sense uh it makes a difference to the whole field in which we live um that's that's not just a belief I've seen that kind of stuff in action I'm sure a lot of a lot of you listening have you know and that's the kind of thing that we could call them the chironic mysteries are really all to do with the experience of pain and suffering and the healing thereof in such a way that there's an opening of consciousness it's it's not just about you know fixing a broken arm if that makes sense to you.
这是一个非常有趣的观点，这意味着在萃龙伤痛方面，并不是每个人都能成长并接受伤痛成为治愈师，然后去帮助别人。有些人可能会反过来以消极的方式，把这种伤害施加给他人。我查了一下关于三角形的理论，它被称为卡普曼戏剧三角，里面有三个角色：受害者、拯救者或加害者。是的，这就是我要说的。与萃龙有关的也有一个类似的概念。从某种角度来看，即使可能让世界及其战争等一切都停止，也可能需要数百年时间来处理已经产生的所有痛苦。在这个意义上，寻找一种方式去处理自己的痛苦，甚至更广泛地承担更多的痛苦，比如通过祈祷、仪式或者其他合理的方式，对于我们所生活的整个环境是有意义的。这不仅仅是一种信念，我亲眼见过这种事情的发生，我相信很多正在收听的人也有类似的体验。这种我们可以称之为萃龙之谜的东西，其实与痛苦和治愈的体验有关，这种治愈能够开启意识，并不仅仅是治愈一条断了的胳膊，如果你明白我的意思。
Yeah that makes a lot of sense um the last angle we haven't talked about that is a little bit more mysterious for me would be the 10th house in terms of what would the wound potentially be with some of the chiron conjunct the midheaven or in the 10th house yes okay it could be a chronic sense of not feeling recognized and you know often with our suffering things are not as they seem we think that we're hurting because of x y and z and then the more we inquire and work with it oh no it's not that it's something else and so needing the approval of the world is that's a 10th house theme potential 10th house theme in one way or another and when chiron is up there well many different expressions can happen but there can be an incredible feeling of pain if one doesn't feel recognized enough there's a twist on that one too it can sometimes be that the person can't handle recognition and being applauded and celebrated and so forth because that may be coming from such a lack of that that it threatens to overturn all the known and familiar structures and so they freeze or turn their back on it etc because so much pain comes up that's a really interesting one and then of course chiron in the 10th usually professionally involved in the field of healing in some way.
是的，这确实很有道理。我们尚未讨论的最后一个方面，对我来说有些神秘，那就是关于第十宫的情况，这可能涉及到某些情况下凯龙星与天顶交叠或者位于第十宫时的创伤问题。
答案是，这可能源于长期以来不被认可的感觉。通常，我们所经历的痛苦并不像表面看起来的那样。我们可能认为自己因为某些原因而受伤，但经过更深入的探究和处理后，才发现根本不是如此，而是另有原因。对于第十宫而言，寻求世界的认可是其可能的主题之一。
当凯龙星位于第十宫时，可能出现多种表现，但其中一种就是，如果一个人感到不够被认可，可能会有极大的痛苦。还有一种特殊的情形，有时这个人无法应对被认可、被赞美和庆祝的情况，因为这可能是由于过去缺乏这种认可，突然的赞美会颠覆所有已知和熟悉的结构，导致他们可能因此停滞不前，或对这些认可避而远之，因为这些让他们感到痛苦。
当然，通常来说，凯龙星在第十宫的人在职业上往往是与某种形式的疗愈领域有关。
And I remember a lovely example of this this was a woman who actually ran the admin desk in a hospital and I you know I was very curious about the chiron and then you know eventually you came up about what she was doing in so forth and in the conversation it came out that she had wanted to be a doctor but she didn't really have the intellect to get through the exams and then she wanted to be a nurse as a kind of sick and best and then she became ill and didn't get through the physical exam to to enroll but she wanted to work somewhere in the field of healing and so she trained in management and all and did all this admin but I could feel this woman's vibe I could feel the healer in the room and I said I said to her well have you ever trained in any other kind of healing because I could feel it and she looked a bit kind of you know like the rabbit in the headlights I kind of caught her out.
我记得一个很好的例子，那时我遇到一位妇女，她在医院的行政服务台工作。我当时对治愈这个话题很感兴趣，于是在交谈中我们讨论起她的工作背景。她曾经想当医生，但因为没有足够的智力通过考试而没能实现。之后，她希望能成为护士作为第二选择，但因为生病没能通过体检。尽管如此，她仍然希望能够在医疗领域工作，于是她接受了管理方面的培训，并从事行政工作。然而，我能感受到这个女人身上有一种治愈的气质。我问她是否训练过其他类型的疗愈方法，因为这种感觉非常明显。她看起来有些惊讶，就像被抓到的小兔子一样。
of something so I didn't say anything more and then she said well you know I don't usually talk about this but I did train as a spiritual healer and I feel it's my job to look after all the people who do the frontline nursing and doctoring and you know surgeons and all the rest of it she said I just sit at my typewriter and I answer the phone and I do all these things but I'm actually giving them healing wow that was that was a very memorable one and then of course being the 10th house it can be where there's a healer who gets quite a bit of profile you know who either himself embodies the archetype of the wounded healer or who kind of takes on the establishment over some particular aspect of you know medical law or you know commercial exploitation of medical proficient all of these things by the way with all of the above.
我没有多说什么，然后她提到，其实她不常谈论这个话题，但她确实接受过灵性治疗的培训。她认为她的工作是照顾所有一线的护士、医生、外科医生等。虽然她只是坐在打字机前，接听电话，处理各种事务，但实际上，她在为他们提供疗愈。哇，那真是一次令人难忘的经历。当然，作为属于第十宫的人，这个位置可能暗示着一个能够获得相当知名度的疗愈者。这个人可能体现了“受伤的疗愈者”的原型，或者在医学法规或医学专业商业剥削等特定方面，挑战体制。这些都是与我上面提到的内容相关的事情。
when I did the revision of the chiroin book and we were talking a little about this before we who's on the recording all right I was curious what because the book's gone through it's up to its fourth edition and you've done substantial revision so I was curious what is new in the latest editions that you changed over the 20 years since you published it first yeah yeah yeah so first published in 1989 there were two editions when it was still with Penguin and there was just minor corrections and a new cover the text didn't change at all okay but the 2010 edition which I published myself at Starwalker Press I pretty much rewrote the book okay now the reason I felt it was necessary to do that was firstly um the first edition goes but it predates the discovery of the corper belt with all of this wonderful astronomy which just is poetry in the sky in terms of what chiroin and the centaur's mean I just thought I can't possibly you know bring out the same old text without including all this marvelous new astronomy so I just thought well I'll just put in a whole new section relating to that.
在我修订《凯龙星》这本书的时候，我们之前有稍微谈到过这个话题。好的，我很好奇，因为这本书已经出到了第四版，你做了大量的修订，所以我想知道在这20年间，自首次出版以来，你在最新版本中有什么变化，对吧对吧？这本书首次出版是在1989年，当时是在企鹅出版社，共有两个版本，那时只是做了一些小的更正和更换了封面，正文没有任何变化。不过在2010年的版本中，我在星行者出版社自行出版时，几乎是重写了整本书。
我觉得有必要这样做的主要原因是，第一版的出版是在发现柯伊伯带之前，而这些绝妙的天文发现就像是天空中的诗歌，与凯龙星和半人马座意义息息相关。我觉得不可能在不包含这些精彩新天文发现的情况下再次推出旧版本，所以我决定把这些新内容加入进去，增添了一个全新的章节。
then I started just doing a kind of proofread thing because as you as I'm sure you know you can never prove read a book enough right doesn't matter how much you do you always find mistakes okay yeah so in section four which was called is called Spirit of the Age I realized two things one that just simply on a practical level a lot of the people who I wrote about had died or more development on their stories and so forth and I just thought that this needs to be updated you know it really does right but then the big thing and this was the actual motivation uh my hope vision feeling when I was writing it the first time that so now we're going back to the 1980s was given what chiroin represented in the field of healing and it like emerged now with with the name of the wounded healer being tagged onto a celestial body.
然后我开始做一种校对工作，因为正如你所知道的，无论你校对多少次一本书，总是会发现错误，对吧？不管做了多少次，总是会发现问题。嗯，在第四节，叫做“时代精神”中，我意识到了两件事：一是在实际层面上，我写到的很多人已经去世了，或者他们的故事有了新的发展等等，所以我觉得这些内容必须更新，确实应该更新。然后，真正推动我这样做的原因，是我在第一次写这本书时的希望、愿景和感受。现在我们回到了20世纪80年代，基罗因在治疗领域所代表的东西，现在似乎和一个被赋予了“受伤疗愈者”称号的天体重合了。
So I thought surely now this must represent the flowering that the rise and the flowering of so-called alternative medicine because it was really burgeoning during those times so many people being trained in so many interesting indigenous techniques whole schools of things like osteopathy um you know traditional Chinese medicine but just a whole range of wonderful different things to do with health so I thought you know this is where we're heading uh no that was totally wrong yeah what's happened is the big foot of commercialization big money big farmer big medicine all of that has just come down with a crash on top of it to the extent that there is exclusion to the level of persecution there are even known excellent wounded healer types who've been killed subtly you know they have and it's an absolute minefield with a lot of very very upsetting stuff going on as we speak.
所以我原本以为，这个时期应该是所谓替代医学兴起和蓬勃发展的时刻，因为在那个时候，这类医学真的在快速成长，很多人接受培训学习各种有趣的本土技术，还有像整骨疗法、传统中医等专门学校，涵盖了与健康相关的各种奇妙方法。所以我以为这是我们的未来方向。但我完全错了。现在发生的事情是，被商业化、大资金、大制药公司、大医学所压制，压得喘不过气来，以至于有被排斥甚至迫害的情况。甚至有一些被公认为杰出的治疗师类型的人被暗中杀害。当前的局势就像是一片雷区，里面充满了让人心烦意乱的事情。
Um you know the the royal homeopathic hospital right you know the uh whatever you think of them the royal family use homeopathy and that's probably the only reason it survived here Charles is like really into it oh totally totally um and the queen okay and they don't really say much about this because everybody tries to make out that it's all stupid and worthless and so forth but there was a fully a full homeopathic hospital in central London and it almost closed and it's now it's been reduced to a shadow of what it was there was a major cancer clinic using alternatives of various kinds had a fabulous reputation a lot of fabulous people work there a lot of healing going on and so forth and it was closed down right powers that be yeah.
你知道皇家顺势疗法医院吧？不管你怎么看，皇室成员使用顺势疗法，这可能是它在这里得以生存的唯一原因。查尔斯国王真的很热衷于此，哦，非常热衷，还有女王。关于这些，他们并不常说，因为大家都觉得这完全没用、没价值等等。伦敦市中心曾有一家完整的顺势疗法医院，差点关闭，现在已经变成了从前的影子。那里曾有一个主要的癌症诊所，使用各种替代疗法，声誉非常好，很多了不起的人在那里工作，进行了很多治愈，但它被关闭了，上层人士的决定，对吧？
There's definitely been a lot of pushback but even in defense of like 1980s era you like the there's been some forms of alternative medicine like um acupuncture for example that has become a bit more mainstream and more accepted in some even scientific scientific circles it seems like yeah it's true it's true um but there was a lot of very ugly stuff on the ground I mean I know a lot of people who work in those kind of fields that I've heard many many stories and even done some pretty evociferous campaigning myself and so forth but that's another story sure and I just kept having this sense that in the times that we were in this is 2010 it came out in 2010 so I was writing it during the so-called SARS epidemic that's a whole other thing but I just had this for almost like a phrase in my head and that phrase is somewhere in the book that to remain healthy in the times we are living in is an act of true revolution.
当然有很多反对意见，但即使是在像20世纪80年代这样的时代，也有一些替代医学形式，比如针灸，已经变得更加主流，甚至在某些科学圈子里也开始被接受。是的，这是事实。但是，当时的情况非常复杂，我认识很多在这些领域工作的人，他们告诉我很多故事，我自己也参与过一些积极的维权活动，但那又是另一个故事了。我一直有一种感觉，那就是在我们所处的时代，保持健康本身就是一种真正的革命。我是在2010年这样觉得的，书中也写到了这一点，当时正值所谓的SARS疫情流行期间。
And I mean that because to stay healthy mostly you you really do have to change your mental your mental cosmology and structure of understanding um because so much of you know the common medicine that is uh that that we meet today it has either already sold out to commerce a long time ago um or it's on the way there and there's a lot of absolutely disgraceful things that have happened in the name of healing and medicine and so to to return to the true basis of health which has to have a spiritual connection you know um is part of what I would think of as a healing journey um and this is this is connected I think to the whole momentum of of Kiron that that that kind of started in the 1980s well it was discovered in 1977 and then worked worked on various people including me and now I think it's almost like the ultimatum is getting even more clear that it is an act of revolution to to to manage to or intend to stay healthy in these times especially now that we're in a pandemic right.
要保持健康，你必须改变自己的心理体系和理解结构。因为如今的许多常规医学要么早已被商业化，要么正在走向商业化。在医疗和治愈的名义下，已经发生了许多令人遗憾的事情。因此，要回归健康的真正基础，其中必须包含精神层面的联系，我认为这是治疗过程的一部分。我认为这与整个Chiron的趋势有关。Chiron在1977年被发现，并在20世纪80年代开始影响到包括我在内的许多人。现在，想要保持健康几乎就像是一种革命性的行为，特别是在我们正处于疫情期间的时候。
Well it'll be interesting in the next decade um it was discovered in 1977 so we're coming up pretty soon on on Kiron doing one full orbital cycle since it's discovery I know the Kiron return I I hope I'm still alive wow yeah it's just I really do it looks like it's uh so it was discovered at three degrees of Taurus and Kiron is currently at about seven degrees of aries so I think I was looking it was around like 2027 or something it'll get into early Taurus or so yes it's there there will actually be three direct hits of of the return okay don't I don't have the dates with me but it goes way into um 2008 as well into 2028 yeah okay here it is it looks like it's already into Taurus by 2026 and then oh oh yes but I'm just thinking of the exact exact you know right at 20 2027 and 28 got it okay so here's the first exact hit it looks like in June may or June 2027 give or take.
嗯，接下来的十年将会很有趣。凯龙星是1977年发现的，所以我们很快就要迎来凯龙星自发现以来完整的绕太阳一周。我希望我到时候还活着，真的希望如此。看起来这颗星是在金牛座3度被发现的，而现在凯龙星大约在白羊座7度。我想我看到的显示大约在2027年左右，它会进入金牛座的早期。实际上会有三次准确的返回。虽然我手头没有具体的日期，但它会一直延续到2028年。嗯，看起来到2026年它就会进入金牛座，然后确切的返回时间大概是在2027和2028年。好的，第一次确切的回归看起来是在2027年的五月或六月左右。
Yeah yeah yeah um yeah so that was actually one of the questions though and maybe that's relevant from a listener in terms of you know a lot of the books on Kiron came out within the first decade of the release and I know at least there were two questions that were similar like that and I was curious what your reflections are now oh yes later one of them was yes from a listener named Diana Shap who said Kiron is so new is it fair to say that we may not still we may not understand it how many years does it take to see correlations between planets and earthly events and another person Claire Moon some oil said you're all all really great questions they said um I don't think that one can arbitrarily designate how long it takes to understand something because I think it's a process and the more we stay with something both individually and of course collectively the deeper that knowledge goes do you feel like you've had any some evolution of your views of Kiron since you wrote wrote the book in 1989 or yeah if are there any specific things besides some of your frustrations with alternative medicine not going as mainstream specific technical interpretive things that you've developed more over the past eight years yes yes and the main thing is the importance of the ancestral realm and the way the the centaurs including Kiron kind of opened that up now that was mentioned in the in the first edition but it seemed like that was what was continually presenting with clients that I would see and of course in my own process and this really makes sense to me um partly based on well the small knowledge that I have at least of some of the African tribal cultures around where I come from.
好的，好吧，所以这其实是听众提出的一个问题，也许这在某种程度上是相关的。你知道的，很多关于凯龙（Kiron）的书在发布后的第一个十年内出版，我知道至少有两个类似的问题，我很好奇你现在的看法。哦，是的，其中一个问题是来自一位名叫戴安娜·沙普（Diana Shap）的听众，她说凯龙是如此新鲜，我们可能还不理解它，这种说法公平吗？需要多少年才能看到行星与地球事件之间的关联？还有另一个人，克莱尔·穆恩（Claire Moon）提到，这是些很棒的问题，她说，我不认为可以随意设定理解某事需要多长时间，因为我认为这是一种过程，越是深入探索，知识就越深入。
你是否觉得自1989年你写书以来，你对凯龙的看法有任何演变？或者除了你对另类医学没有主流化的某些失望外，在过去的八年里，你在具体的技术解释方面是否有更多的发展？
是的，最主要的是祖先领域的重要性，以及半人马座，包括凯龙，如何打开这个领域。这在第一版中提到过，但似乎这也是我在客户中不断呈现的东西，当然在我自己的过程中也是如此。这对我真的很有意义，部分基于我对我来自的非洲部落文化的有限了解。
So the ancestors are extremely important in that culture so an anthropologist might call them ancestor worshippers but that is so not what's going on what's going on there is that the ancestors are seen like a membrane that protects the living or a membrane in the spiritual world that protects the living from negative influences in the astral that's just my my way of describing it but they talk about you know the individual person needing safety and protection in the spiritual world in the same way as you have a physical house that protects you from the elements or from people who might come to want to rob you or whatever and ideally you know a family and the and the the neighborhood in the village they are part of that safety system and thus it is with the ancestors in the spiritual world so the ancestors occupy the same realm as the centaur because they're in between the visible and the invisible.
在这种文化中，祖先被视为极其重要。人类学家可能会称他们为“祖先崇拜者”，但事实上并不是如此。他们认为祖先就像一种膜，保护着活着的人，或者说是一种精神世界中的膜，将生者与灵界的负面影响隔离开来。我的描述方式可能有所不同，但他们谈论的是，个人在精神世界中需要安全和保护，就像你在物质世界中需要一个房子来保护自己免受天气或潜在偷盗者的侵害一样。理想情况下，家庭、邻里和村庄都是这个安全系统的一部分，祖先在精神世界中也扮演着类似的角色。祖先和半人马一样，占据着可见与不可见之间的领域。
I've also had the great good fortune to be able to do quite a lot of ancestral work in one way or another and spoken to numerous people who likewise have done that and the way that they the way that the process is signified with such precision by the centaur is just totally incredible I mean really it really is you couldn't make it happen so part of your your process after publishing the book on kairan in 1989 was expanding it to focus on the other centaur's and what are the what are the other ones that you incorporate specifically right so I use three more in order of their discovery a folus and nexus and charichlose the wife of kairan very interesting I a few years ago I had occasion to do quite a lot of work on her because I kept getting people with a very prominent charichlose.
我也非常幸运地能够以各种方式进行大量的祖先研究，并与许多同样参与这类工作的其他人交流。在这个过程中，半人马星座的象征精确得令人难以置信，真的太神奇了，就像不可思议的巧合。1989年你出版关于凯龙星的书之后的一部分工作，就是将研究扩展到其他半人马星体。那么具体来说，你还研究了哪些其他星体呢？是的，我根据它们被发现的顺序，加入了另外三个：弗罗斯星、尼索斯星和奇林克洛丝星，她是凯龙星的妻子。非常有趣的是，几年前我有机会对奇林克洛丝星进行大量研究，因为我不断遇到一些在星盘中奇林克洛丝星位置非常显著的人。
Now there are more centaurs and I don't it's as if the other ones don't really have a fully fleshed out characterology in the mythology or much of a storyline really there may be mainly associated with one anecdote perhaps connected with another centaur or a god or goddess or demigod or something but they don't feel like really rounded out characters to me maybe because they just haven't spoken to me but these four absurdity do and there's also the mythology especially with folus and nexus is really really rich a lot to go from and you know after by 1989 I mean I was centaur'd out I can tell you I I mean when I was actually writing to contract that I mean I'd spent almost a decade collecting material and a headline boxes of notes and stuff and so on this was before computers and when kairan was finally published I thought okay that's it you know enough centaurs enough of that etc etc and my centaur buddy Brian Clark from from Australia I was vividly remember he would send me these faxes from new scientist magazine or other things but it's like new centaurs being discovered oh no no I'm not gonna work with them enough already this was too much so I did live and you know I would write him back or fax him back and say thanks Brian that's great and I actually wasn't even looking at them as they were country by fax in those days I was like screw it screwing it up and putting it in the bin because I refuse I'm not doing this and I did that for a few years.
现在有更多的半人马出现，而在神话中，似乎其他的半人马并没有一个完整丰满的角色设定或故事线。它们可能仅仅与一个轶事相关，或者与另一个半人马、神、女神、半神等有所联系，但对我来说，它们并不像真正完整的角色。也许是因为它们没有“开口”与我对话，但这四个确实对我有这种感觉。特别是关于福络斯和涅索斯的神话非常丰富，有很多素材可以利用。
到1989年，坦白说，我对半人马的热情已经耗尽了。当时我是在为合约写作，几乎花了十年的时间收集材料，积满了一箱箱的笔记等东西，那是电脑普及之前的事情。当卡戎的故事终于出版时，我想，够了，关于半人马的写作到此为止了。这时，我的半人马朋友来自澳大利亚的Brian Clark，我清楚地记得他会从《新科学家》杂志或者其他地方传真我关于新发现的半人马的消息。我心想，不，我不会再研究它们了，已经够多了，这超出了我的承受范围。我常常给他回信或传真说，“谢谢你，Brian，这很棒。”但其实我甚至没有去看那些资料，只是把传真揉成一团扔进垃圾桶，因为我拒绝再卷入其中，并且这种状态持续了好几年。
Then there was a string of synchronicities that I absolutely could not ignore and I basically said okay I agree I'll do some more work kind of thing it was like that you know it was extraordinary yeah so you felt like this was your work and you were called to do it at different points even sometimes despite your resistance yes exactly exactly and of course once I was into it it was just very joyful a lot of hard work but very joyful do you have any advice one of the things that's happening now is we're having the discovery of new really large minor planets in the outer right wing of the solar system and astrologers are starting to think about like how to incorporate those or how to study those like especially bodies like ares do you have any advice that you learn from being an early pioneer in studying kairan that if you could go back and do it all over again that you would have applied if you were trying to study some of these new newly discovered planetary bodies yes but at first I I would like to respond to that great question with a quote from Richard Tarnas now he doesn't remember saying this but I know that this what I'm going to say was captured on a recording and at the astrological association conference in Canterbury in 1994 was a panel discussion and somebody who was in fact a new astrology student asked in general to the to the panel precisely that question in the sense of well oh and this was long before the discovery of the centaurs and you know the TNOs and all that she was actually just refer I think she might have been referring to like the asteroids but just different techniques that you could apply to the horoscope like harmonics and midpoints and what about draconic astrology and all these things so her question was how do I know what to use.
接着我经历了一连串无法忽视的同步事件，我基本上说，好吧，我同意，我会做更多的工作，大概就是这样的，你知道吗，这真是特别。是的，所以你感到这是你的工作，有不同的时刻你被召唤去做它，即使有时你有抵触，是的，完全正确。当然，一旦我投入其中，感到非常喜悦，虽然有很多辛苦的工作，但也非常快乐。你有没有什么建议？现在，我们正在发现太阳系外侧新的大型小行星，星相学家开始思考如何将它们纳入研究中，尤其是像“厄里斯”这样的天体。你在早期研究"凯龙"时学到了什么建议，如果可以重新来过，你会如何应用于研究这些新发现的星体？
是的，但首先，我想用理查德·塔纳斯的一句话来回应这个很好的问题。虽然他不记得说过这句话，但我知道我即将说的话被录音记录了下来。1994年在坎特伯雷的星相学会议上，曾有一个小组讨论，其中一个刚学习星相学的新生问了小组一个类似的问题。当时远没有发现半人马座和跨海王星天体等，她似乎指的是小行星以及你可以应用于星图的不同技术，比如和声、中点，还有关于月球交点星相学等等。所以她的问题是，我怎么知道该用什么？
And this is what Richard Tarnas said this is verbatim I never forgot it he said in astrology you can only work with what is burnished into your soul end of in other words like I was kind of saying earlier I'm not I'm not really a researcher hmm I don't really have a researcher's mind but I know how to keep going on a trail once I really feel called that's a different kind of experience than just being wildly curious or wanting to know about something it's like your entire energy body has involved your body your feelings your mind your imaginations boom now I only work with that otherwise I think I'd go mad you know I've probably got too much air in my horoscope to be a researcher because I would that would be crazy.
这是理查德·塔纳斯的话，我永远没忘，他说：「在占星学中，你只能与那些深深刻在你灵魂中的东西共事。」换句话说，就像我之前说的，我不是真的一个研究者，我没有研究者的思维，但一旦我真的感受到召唤，我知道如何继续追寻。这种体验不同于仅仅是充满好奇或想了解某件事，而是好像你的整个能量体都参与其中——你的身体、感情、思想和想象力全都投入了。现在，我只与这些东西共事，否则我想我会发疯。你知道，我在星盘中可能有太多的风元素，不适合做研究者，因为那样我会疯掉。
So the advice yes um I would say unless you've got a really good grounded kind of mind you know something really helpful like maybe a lot of Virgo or maybe a good Saturn Mercury aspect or a third house which has got some good good something earth planets in there and so forth take care that you don't scramble yourself with that and find maybe your own way to have that not happen because it'll spoil it for you.
所以，我的建议是，除非你有一个非常稳重的心智，比如说有很多处女座的特质，或者有一个良好的土星与水星相位，或者你的第三宫有一些不错的土象星球等等，否则要小心不要让自己感到混乱。建议你找到自己的方法来避免这种情况，因为那样会破坏你的体验。
So my way as I described is I I can only work with what I feel is burnished into my soul truly and that narrows the field rather well it also makes it a wonderfully surprising thing like when I began to work with Characloh it was quite a few years since I'd had any major cent or downloads but this happened out the blue in the middle of a session with a client so wow you know um so I would say you know if you've got the kind of mind that can stay grounded and stay organized open up a file with different sections well you'd probably today you'd probably do that in a computer but most of my chiro notes they were in an old fashioned ring binder file with divisions first our second house and so on and so forth and that was how the material grew.
所以我所描述的方式是，我只能依照内心深处真正感受到的东西来进行工作，这也很好地缩小了工作范围。此外，这种方式充满了意想不到的惊喜。比如，当我开始研究Characloh时，距我上次有重大领悟已经过去了好几年，但这次灵感突然在一次与客户的会话中闪现。哇，你知道吗。所以，如果你的思维能够保持稳重和有序，那么可以打开一个文件，分成不同的部分。现在大多数人可能会在电脑上这样做，但我大部分的占星笔记都在一个带有分隔的传统活页夹中，比如将不同的内容放在第一宫、第二宫等等，这就是这些资料如何积累起来的。
I just endlessly indisely made notes and that really worked for me and I think in general that's quite a good approach is to be structured with it and also be clear about why you're doing that I know for me it was very clear that I because these were all happening in my life with my transits I absolutely felt I needed to understand this process a bit because it was actually happening to me or in my life now with with the extra plutonians and so you know the the the TNOs and the S D.O.s and all of these weird things some of which are wonderful marvelous.
我不停地反复做笔记，这种方法对我来说真的很有效。我认为总体来说，这是一种不错的策略——要有条理，并且明确自己为什么要这样做。对我来说，这一点非常清楚，因为这些事情在我生活中正在发生，特别是我感受到的过境影响。因为这些事情确实在我生命中发生，尤其是在处理额外的冥王星相关事物、TNOs 和 SDOs 时，这些事物有些非常奇妙。
I did go through a phase where I deliberately decided to try to learn about them and I made some headway and it was very interesting I even did a workshop together with Stephen Forest on this because he was doing the same thing that was huge fun was wonderful but you know after I done all that work it didn't really stick because they were not burnished into my soul fair enough so be systematic be organized and ask yourself why am I doing this because you know in in the wisdom tradition which is astrology I think it's really the same as as many of the other wisdom traditions there's a huge difference between knowledge and wisdom and so wisdom is really only given on a need to know business.
我确实经历过一个阶段，在那时我有意决定尝试去了解这些知识。我取得了一些进展，并感到非常有趣。我甚至和Stephen Forest一起参加了一个工作坊，因为他也在做同样的事情，那次体验非常有趣，非常美好。但是，完成所有这些工作后，这些知识并没有真正深入我的心灵。我觉得这也无可厚非。所以，要系统化、条理化，并问自己：我为什么要做这件事？因为在占星术这一智慧传统中，我认为这与其他许多智慧传统是相同的，知识和智慧之间存在很大的区别。智慧通常只在需要时才会被赋予。
And so to ask yourself why you might be doing something in astrology it's always an interesting inquiry because there is a part of us that has to know things needs to know things wants to figure it all out and in part that's a great motivation to be learning astrology because actually the end the learning is absolutely endless but at the same time there can be a very unhelpful ego driven aspect of that which isn't like wrong but it's good to be aware of that so that it doesn't pull you all over.
在占星学中，询问自己为何要做某件事总是很有趣，因为我们都有那种需要知道、渴望弄懂一切的部分。在某种程度上，这种渴望是学习占星学的极大动力，因为占星学的学习实际上是无止境的。但与此同时，这种动机中也可能存在一种由自我驱动的不太有益的方面，这并不是说它是错误的，但我们应该意识到这一点，以免被它牵着走。因此，当你在学习和探索占星学时，不妨自问一下自己的动机是什么，这样更能保持平衡。
So therefore take charge of that wish be structured pace it and and let the journey unfold as it will that's what I would say it's helpful yeah I think that's good um I was just in preparation for this episode one of the things that I was doing is just using solar fire and searching for like everybody in my files that has kairan conjunct the descendant within like a three degree orb or something like that what do you think is that too tight or what kind of orbs do you use for well that's another good question now um in a general way I would start uh with the same use the same orbs that you're comfortable with as you would use for Saturn.
因此，要掌控自己的愿望，有条不紊地推进，并让旅程自然展开。我认为这样做会很有帮助。是的，我觉得这很好。为了准备这一集，我做的一件事是用“Solar Fire”软件，在我的文件中搜索凯龙星与后天顶相合的人，范围在大约三度以内。你怎么看？这个范围太小了吗？或者说，你通常用多大的范围呢？嗯，这倒是个好问题。一般来说，我会建议用你习惯的范围，就像你为土星选择的范围一样。
Okay but now I'm I'm one of these people what depending on what I'm trying to do in a given astrology project um I do sometimes play fast and loose with the whole question of orbs because what makes more sense to me is to really listen to the person and you know when I say listen I don't only only mean the words that they're saying because some some plants hardly speak but you need to learn to listen to their energies to intuit to feel the reality of this person who's horoscope you're reading you see and um in that case they might be saying things that if your idea about the right orb is to narrow you're gonna miss it you're gonna miss the planetary magic that they're telling you about and I remember.
好的，不过现在我是这样的人，根据我在某个占星项目中的目标，我有时候会在"交角"的问题上采取比较宽松的态度。对我来说，更合理的是去真正倾听这个人，你知道，当我说倾听时，我不仅仅是指听他们说的话，因为有些行星几乎不发声，但你需要学会倾听它们的能量，凭直觉去感受你正在解读的这个人星图中的真实情况。这样一来，如果你对合适的交角的定义太狭窄，你可能会遗漏掉他们正在告诉你的行星之间的神奇联系，我记得。
when I when that really came home to me when I um this is quite a while back now I had a client who I really really liked so much and she had been through hell and high water in her life with illness and the result for her was she was left very very sensitized which was sometimes difficult for her but mostly very um enriching and she came and started talking about what was happening in her Pluto transit and I remember sitting there and thinking wait a minute Pluto is applying by 12 degrees to this woman's son and she doesn't really understand anything about astrology so what's going on and I just you know dropped all that and just listened and what was absolutely clear was the woman was she was picking up the resonance already and it was 12 degrees applying which is really a lot you know so after that I became maybe a little less fixed in my mind and decided to just try to listen out to the words the vibes whatever the person would say and if they are speaking the astrological symbolism well then those planets are in orb so that's my basic policy.
当我真正领悟到这个道理时，我记得很久以前我有一个客户，我非常非常喜欢她。她在生活中经历了各种磨难和病痛的折磨，结果导致她变得极其敏感。有时候这种敏感让她感到困难，但更多的是极大地丰富了她的人生。她过来开始谈论她的冥王星过境。我记得当时坐在那里心想，等等，冥王星正在向这位女士的太阳靠近12度，而她对占星术并不真正了解，这到底是怎么回事？于是我把所有的顾虑放下，专心倾听。很显然，她已经开始感受到这种共鸣，而此时冥王星与她的太阳相距还12度，这是相当大的距离。所以在那之后，我的想法变得不那么固定，决定尝试去倾听对方的言辞、感受等等。如果他们所说的正好符合占星学的象征意义，那么这些行星就已经在影响范围内了。这就是我的基本原则。
I also understand Chris you would you would know about this I'm sure is it true that way way back in the day in some of the old traditions they would refer to planets being conjunct if they were in the same sign and house yeah if they were anywhere in the same sign they would consider them to be in a conjunction and interpret it that way and they would just treat it as becoming more intense the closer they'd get by degree right right yeah so that's so so yes that that's an example but that's a great question so I know we need to wrap up soon but I just wanted to mention there's a few other keywords that I don't know if we mentioned I just want to run them by you really quickly one of them was doing for others what we cannot do for ourselves yes also another theme of sacrifice and being separated from something that we feel we can't live without.
我也理解Chris，我相信你肯定知道这个。是否真的在很久以前的一些传统中，如果行星在同一个星座和宫位，他们就称其为合相？是的，只要它们处于同一个星座，它们就会被视为合相并这样解析。并且他们会认为随着度数越接近，这种合相的效果就会越强烈。对，就是这样。这是个很好的问题。我知道我们需要很快结束，但我想提一下还有一些关键词，我不确定我们有没有提到过，我想快速跟你说一下。其中一个是为他人做我们无法为自己做到的事情。还有一个主题是牺牲和与我们觉得无法离开的事物分离。
yeah and finally another area that you talk about in the book was a feeling of exile oh yes yes that's that's quite a big one because the centers in the mythology they never inhabited the cities they lived in the caves that surround the villages and the cities and so forth out in the wild and you know if you go now today I don't know about precisely today it's maybe 15 years since I was last there but if you go to Mount Pelion which is the archetypal mythological home of the centers but it is a real place and a real mountain if you go there every second cafe store little hotel anything they all have little boards with something to do with Ken Tavros that's the center and loads of people who want to take you to Kairon's cave hmm and then lots and lots and lots of kairons caves you see and everybody says no no this is a real one so that's very amazing but what I went off I went off the rails there were you a question whether those are other core themes that I'm think we talked we've touched upon them briefly but just ideas of sacrifice being separated from something that was the notion of the exile.
是的，最后你在书中提到的另一个概念是流亡感。哦，是的，是的，这确实是一个重要主题。在神话中，半人马从未居住在城市里，他们居住在围绕村庄和城市的洞穴里，生活在野外。如果你现在去看，我不太清楚今天的情况，因为我大约15年前去过那里，但如果你去佩利翁山，那是半人马在神话中的典型家园，而且这是一个真实的地方，一个真实的山。当你到那里的时候，几乎每家咖啡馆、商店、小旅馆都有与“肯塔夫罗斯”（半人马）相关的小标牌，还有许多人会带你去看“凯隆”的洞穴。嗯，还有许多所谓的“凯隆的洞穴”，每个人都声称他们的是正宗的。这真的非常有趣，但我好像有点偏题了。你是不是问那些核心主题之一是关于牺牲和被迫与某些东西分离，这与流亡的理念有关？
so the so the centors they lived outside the city but at least the main the main ones the ones that are named often had a shamanic kind of a role vis-a-vis the humans so they were the healers the diviners that kind of thing and they inhabited this in between realm again it's between the city and the country so they're not in the country and totally disconnected from anything to do with human society but they're certainly on city dwellers either you know right so they're because they're half animal they're sort of cast out of society of human society but still interact with it in different ways yes and of course have a very special relationship with the energies of nature and and the earth okay and then finally just that idea of being separated from something that we feel as if we can't live it out seems to be a major recurring theme that we touched upon a few times when we were going through some of the houses but that seems like a good underlying theme to keep in mind yes because because of the extraordinary connection between the centaurs and Pluto who is the Lord of the underworld and therefore presides over the experience of loss there's a very strong resonance with Kairan there.
翻译起来，这段话的意思是：半人马（Centors）他们生活在城市之外，但至少那些经常被提到的主要半人马在对待人类的方面有一种萨满的角色，所以他们是治疗者和占卜者，类似这样的角色。他们生活在一个介于城市和乡村之间的领域；因此他们并不完全在乡村里，与人类社会完全脱离，但他们也不是城市居民。因为他们是半动物，某种程度上被排除在人类社会之外，但仍然通过不同的方式与其互动。他们当然与自然和大地的能量有一种非常特殊的关系。最后，关于与我们无法完全融入的事物分离的这种感觉，似乎是一个重要的反复出现的主题，这个主题我们在讨论一些房屋时多次触及过，但似乎是一个值得铭记的基础主题。因为半人马与冥王星之间有一种特别的联系，而冥王星是冥界的统治者，因此掌管着失落的体验，与凯隆星（Kairan）有很强的共鸣。
I mean the astronomical similarities are incredible. so all the centaurs and Pluto as I think I mentioned but just to repeat they all have elliptical orbits that are steeply inclined to the ecliptic and they all cross over at least one of the orbits of the classical planets and so it's as if you know Pluto, the Lord of the underworld is also like the king of the cooper belt and the centaurs are like the agents or emissaries or even the escapees from the underworld and it's like they are like our guides in very underworld kind of experiences where there might be immense suffering because we're ill or bereaved or because of painful things happening to those we're really close to whatever it is.
这段文字的意思是：天文学上的相似之处令人难以置信。我之前提到过人马和冥王星，但还是再重复一次，它们都有倾斜于黄道的椭圆轨道，并且至少穿过了一颗经典行星的轨道。就好像冥王星，不仅是冥界之主，还是柯伊伯带的王者，而人马则像是冥界的代理、使者，甚至是逃离者。他们似乎在引导我们经历某种"冥界"般的体验，这种体验可能充满巨大的痛苦，比如因生病或失去亲人而感到悲伤，或因亲近的人遭遇不幸而心痛，不论是什么原因。
And so it seems to me that the centaurs are our little guides in those underworldy regions because normally you know we just think of you know Pluto, Lord of the underworld you know dark black heavy contracted kind of stuff but in in pretty much all cultures who've got any connection still with the the energies of the earth the underworld is thought to be under the earth and it is both the realm of the dead but it's not like oh it's the realm of the dead that's it it's full of different zones like the Greek underworld has many many different zones in it you know tartarus and the lithian fields and the place called aornus and all different things happen in these zones it's not just one uniform horror you know and it is also very much the realm that opens up if we for example go into a Jungian analysis or work deeply with our dreams and so and it's as if these little critters represent this energy of being able to handle paradox being able to handle dilemma in order that something deeper than the duality can come through I think that's really what they're about.
在我看来，半人马就像是我们在那些阴间领域中的小向导。我们通常只会想到冥界之主冥王普鲁托，感觉就是黑暗、沉重、压抑的东西。但在几乎所有与地球能量还有联系的文化中，阴间被认为是在地底下，它既是亡者的领域，但不仅仅是如此。那里有很多不同的区域，就像希腊的冥界有塔尔塔罗斯、尼弗斯田野和叫做奥尔恩斯的地方，这些区域发生着不同的事情，并不是一个单调恐怖的地方。此外，当我们进行荣格式的分析或深入解析我们的梦境时，阴间就像是一个向我们敞开的领域。好像这些小生物代表着一种能够处理矛盾、面对困境的能量，从而让一些超越二元对立的东西显现出来。我认为这正是它们的意义所在。
okay brilliant are there any other final things we should mention about kairan before we wrap up that I completely spaced out or forgot to mention oh well there's a listener question here from from from kairan moon okay I think we the question is did do we mention that yeah I think we got that one it was just tied in with the idea of how long it's been around one of the other the two other ones we haven't touched on was die that was that was was with Diana right but the next question I don't think we did with the kairan moon so with with that review that I told you about did we talk about that what part oh right yeah that was a funny so one of your early reviews of the book when it for not long after it first came out was kind of funny correct yeah because there was I mean I'm sure even though in retrospect it seems like there was this wave of astrologers getting into the asteroids and writing books about them occasionally I'm sure you got pushback as well right or skepticism or you know I didn't really no not so much okay I really didn't and I don't really know why I think at least so this was pre-internet days it came out before the internet you know and there is really a truth there.
好的，太好了。在我们结束之前，还有没有其他关于Kairan的事情是我完全忘记或遗漏提到的？哦，对了，这里有来自Kairan Moon的听众问题。我们提到过这个问题吗？是的，我想我们已经涵盖了这个问题，它与其存在多久的概念有关。另外两个我们没有触及的是与Diana有关的事情，对吧？但是下一条问题我想我们没有在Kairan Moon讨论过。那么，关于我之前提到的那个评论，我们有聊过吗？哪一部分？哦，对，那个挺有趣的。那是你这本书刚出版不久后的早期评论之一，非常有趣，对吧？是的，因为尽管从现在回头看，似乎有一波占星家开始关注小行星并撰写相关书籍，但你一定也遇到过一些反对或怀疑，对吧？不，实际上没有。我不太了解为什么，可能因为这是在互联网普及之前出版的，在没有互联网的年代，确实有这样的情况。
I mean as long as I've lived in England I there is an amazing astrological community here that pretty much covers all bases in terms of all different approaches psychological traditional academic horary I mean you name it it's all here and this is a very small island and it's as if because we we know the people there's an amazing amount of really positive exchange now don't get me wrong it's not without it's kind of tribal horrors there's no group that can get away from that but I guess overall because there's so many different approaches and so many different kind of astrologers all doing wonderful astrology things in a relatively small area I didn't really get any negative pushback okay which I have to say I was hugely grateful for it would have been horrible.
我的意思是，自从我住在英格兰以来，这里就有一个令人惊叹的占星学社区，几乎涵盖了所有不同的方法，包括心理学、传统、学术、时占等等。这个小岛上什么都有，可以说应有尽有。因为我们彼此认识，这里有着非常积极的交流。当然，也不是说完全没有问题，每个群体都会有内部的小摩擦。但总体来说，因为这里有如此多样化的方法和不同类型的占星师，在相对较小的区域内都做着精彩的占星研究和实践，所以我几乎没有遇到过什么负面的反对。对此，我非常感激，因为如果情况相反，那将是非常糟糕的。
Sure what what was the book review that you did oh this review I love this so I it was a reviewer who said it said a lot of kind of somewhat grudging positive things about the book and then said something like well if you're somebody who believes that if a fully fleshed out you know description of this tyron is possible in such a short amount of time since it was discovered I mean well in maybe this book is for you i.e. it's not for me the reviewer and then the final sentence this is verbatim I never forgot it I dined out on this and I wanted it on my epitaph however if rine heart is massively disconnected from reality at least she has done it in style I roared I loved it.
当然，是什么书评让你这么喜欢呢？哦，就是这篇书评。我特别喜欢这篇评论。评论者虽然有些勉强，但对书给予了很多积极的评价。然后评论者写道，如果你相信，能够在如此短的时间内（自从发现起）就可以对这种暴君进行全面详细的描述，那么这本书可能适合你。也就是说，这本书不适合评论者自己。接下来是我一直记得的最后一句话，我一直以此为傲，甚至想把它刻在我的墓碑上：然而，即便Rinehart与现实严重脱节，至少她是有风格地做到了这一点。这句话让我大笑不已，我非常喜欢。
I've been listening to this listen to this I wanted on my epitaph yeah that's very eloquent somewhat praise in terms of yeah as a as a review that's pretty good you should put that on one of the future editions of the book on the back cover I didn't even think of that might might might might be fun all right thank you I know we're I don't want to take up more of your time I know we could keep talking all day but it's been two hours really yeah I didn't even look at the clock I've really enjoyed having a conversation with you it's been great yeah me too thank you so much for doing this we were been in the process of setting this up for a few months now and I'm really glad that it finally came together.
我一直在听这个，我甚至想把它刻在我的墓志铭上，是的，这句话非常有文采，可以说是某种程度上的赞美。作为评论，这已经相当不错了，你可以把它放在未来版本书籍的封底上。我之前都没想到，可能这样会很有趣。好的，非常感谢。我知道我们可以聊上一整天，但我不想占用你太多时间。已经两个小时了？我都没看时间，和你谈话真的很愉快。是的，我也是，非常感谢你这样做。我们花了几个月时间来安排这次谈话，我很高兴它终于实现了。
I just want to give a shout out and a thanks to my partner Lisa Shime for her help researching this episode because she's a big fan of kairan and oh wonderful help to me big big thanks to Lisa yes definitely and what do you have coming up or do you have any classes or events or projects that you're working on right now for the future yes um um we can't after next there's a weekend conference hosted by the um the London School of Astrology and the Mayo School they're both here in England and there there are some it's an amazing lineup really and I'll be doing a kind of workshoppy thing so that that means a long session three hours with obviously with a gap.
我想特别感谢我的搭档Lisa Shime，她在研究这个话题时给予了我很大的帮助，因为她非常喜欢"Kairan"（回覧？）这方面的内容，对我来说，她的帮助非常宝贵，真心感谢Lisa！是的，绝对如此。那么你接下来有什么计划吗？或者你目前有没有在筹备什么课程、活动或项目呢？是的，我们在的下个周末后会有一个由伦敦占星学院和麦捐美校合办的周末会议，这两个机构都在英国。这次会议的嘉宾阵容非常精彩，我会举办一个类似于工作坊的活动，这意味着会有一个长达三小时的课程，中间当然会有休息时间。
And I'm also doing something for astrology university it's not it's not yet up and advertised yet but it'll be on the 19th of December in between a couple of things local where I'm hoping they're going to be live but actually I don't think they are going to be and I'm also I'm also considering starting a small group which would be like a weekly two two weekly monthly kind of thing I probably wouldn't do that until beginning of next year but if I do if if I do start that it would be on on the events page of my website or also I would I would mention it in my one of my occasional newsletters so that's that's for subscribers and I do have a there's a sign up thing on the homepage of my website if you if you want to get that get that news.
我正在为占星大学做一些事情，目前还没有上线和宣传，活动将在12月19日举行，与一些我希望能现场进行的本地活动在同一时间进行，但实际上我觉得可能不会是现场的。另外，我还在考虑成立一个小组，类似于每周、每两周或每月举行的活动。我可能不会在今年开始这个小组计划，但如果我决定启动它，会在我网站的活动页面上公布，也会在我的一些偶尔发送的新闻通讯中提到，订阅者可以收到这些信息。在我的网站主页上有一个注册的地方，如果你想获取这些新闻，可以去注册。
And your website is Melanie Reinhardt.com yeah that's it okay great um so people can find out information about those events they can send up your newsletter there and I'll put a link to that in the description either below this video on YouTube or on the description page on the astrologypodcast.com website that's great so my website really is like an unruly jungle in that sense a bit centoric sure I mean it really needs a good prune and a good redo which I will get to at some point but in other words there's a lot of digging that you can do.
好的，你的网站是MelanieReinhardt.com，对吧？太好了。那么人们可以在你的网站上找到这些活动的信息，他们也可以在那里注册你的新闻通讯。我会在这个视频下方的YouTube描述中或者在astrologypodcast.com网站的描述页面上放一个链接。这很棒，不过我的网站现在就像一个杂乱的丛林，可以说有点儿“郁郁葱葱”。我的意思是，它真的需要好好修剪和重新设计，我会在某个时候处理这个问题。换句话说，你可以在那里做很多探索。
There's a lot of content on it yeah it's been really helpful as I was getting ready for this episode so people should definitely check it out they should also get the fourth edition of your book which when was the latest edition put out was it 2010 or more recent than that it was it was 2010 okay and in fact if any of you listening are Dutch speakers now there is a new edition of the Dutch language translation in preparation as we speak and when I was working with the translator she picked up a few things mostly in section four which you know like I said because like the people had died or a situation had changed and so on and so forth.
这上面有很多内容，是我为这一集做准备时的得力助手，所以大家一定要去看看。此外，他们还应该拿到你的书的第四版，那最新版是何时出版的？是2010年还是更近的时间？是2010年。事实上，如果你们当中有荷兰语使用者，现在正有一个新版荷兰语翻译在准备中。我和翻译合作时，她发现了一些问题，主要集中在第四章，因为某些人物去世了或者情况发生了变化等等。
And she said well do you want to kind of update this or write a little extra piece so I said yeah great you know so by the end of the year it will be that the Dutch language translation will be that'll be the most recent edition but at some point I guess I'll have to do another small revision of kiron but the 2010 one still stands you know okay great and yeah people can find that on your website they can find links to that on amazon there's like a Kindle version as well exactly and there is a page on my website where you can buy my titles if you want and they're all available on amazon and and also other various book retailers you know like gardeners and co-bohned or only things that are tried to make them as available as possible excellent um great well thank you so much for joining me today I really appreciate it well likewise it's been great I could talk for another few hours with you.
她说，你想要更新这个或者写一小段新的内容吗？我就说，好啊，非常好，到今年年底，荷兰语翻译版将会是最新的版本，但我想有时候我还得对《Kiron》做一个小的修订，不过2010年的那个版本还是可以的。好的，太好了，没错，人们可以在你的网站上找到它，也可以在亚马逊上找到链接，还有电子书版本。对，我的网站上有一个页面，你可以在那里购买我的作品，它们都能在亚马逊和其他各种书店买到，比如Gardners和Kobo等等。我努力让它们尽可能广泛地上市。太好了，非常感谢你今天加入我，我非常感激。彼此彼此，这次谈话很愉快，我还能和你再聊几个小时呢。
Yeah well maybe we'll have to do this again some time to talk about some of the other centaurs and some of your other work with us fine brilliant all right well thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the astrology podcast thanks to all the patrons and supporters and we'll see you again next time special thanks to the patrons who support the astrology podcast through our page on patreon.com in particular shout out to the patrons that are on our producers tier such as Christine stone Nate Kratik Marin Altman Thomas Miller Bear River Catherine Conroy Michelle Merrillot Kristi Mo and Sumo Copic find out more about how to become a patron at patreon.com slash astrology podcast.
好的，也许我们应该再找个时间来聊聊其他的半人马座以及你们与我们合作的其他作品。非常好，感谢大家收听这一期的占星播客节目，感谢所有的赞助人和支持者，我们下次再见。特别感谢通过我们在patreon.com上的页面支持占星播客的赞助人，尤其是我们制作人档位的赞助人，如Christine Stone、Nate Kratik、Marin Altman、Thomas Miller、Bear River、Catherine Conroy、Michelle Merrillot、Kristi Mo和Sumo Copic。想了解更多关于如何成为赞助人的信息，请访问patreon.com/astrology podcast。
Also thanks to our sponsors this month which include the astrogold astrology app available at astrogold.io the Portland School of Astrology at Portland Astrology.org the honeycomb collective personal astrological almanacs available at honeycomb.co and also the international society for astrological research which is hosting an online conference September 12th through the 13th 2020 find out more information at esar2020.org as well as the northwest astrological conference which is happening May 27th through the 31st 2021 and you can find out more information about that at norwhack.net.
本月，我们要感谢以下赞助商：AstroGold 占星应用程序（可在 astrogold.io 获取），波特兰占星学院（网站为 PortlandAstrology.org），Honeycomb Collective 个人占星年历（可在 honeycomb.co 获取），以及国际占星研究学会（ISAR），该学会将于2020年9月12日至13日在线举办会议，详情请访问 esar2020.org。此外，西北占星会议将于2021年5月27日至31日举行，更多信息请访问 norwhack.net。
Finally the software we use here on the astrology podcast is called solar fire astrology software and it's available through alab.com and you can get a 15% discount with the promo code ap15.
我们在这个占星播客中使用的软件是Solar Fire占星软件，可以通过alabe.com购买。使用促销代码ap15，可以享受15%的折扣。