Anderson Cooper reveals what Andrew Garfield said about grief that stuck with him

Had you had much experience with grief before your mom died? I had had a certain amount of experience nothing like the kind of this absurd surreal event of the person that gave me life is no longer here. It is surreal. It's bizarre. Doesn't make any sense. It's crazy But before that I had lost friends. Yes, grandparents. Yes, mentors, Mike Nichols, Heath Ledger, I think about Philip Seymour Hoffman. Tell me, put your mom her name was Lynn's. Lynn, Linda, yeah, Linda Diane, Hillman, Nagarfield and she was a whole person that is still a mystery to me in certain ways even though I I You know, I am I am a part of her and she is a part of me on her hospice bed she was more concerned with the nurses than she was with her own pain and discomfort.

在你母亲去世前，你对失去亲人的痛苦有过多少经验呢？我有过一些经历，但都无法比拟这次荒谬而超现实的事件——赋予我生命的人不再在世。这种感觉太不真实，太怪异，完全不合常理，简直疯狂。但在那之前，我确实失去过朋友、祖父母，还有一些导师，比如迈克·尼科尔斯和希斯·莱杰，我也常常想起菲利普·塞摩尔·霍夫曼。 告诉我你的母亲，她名叫林，琳达·戴安·希尔曼·纳加菲尔德。即便我知道她是独立的完整个体，并且在某些方面对我来说仍是个谜，但我始终是她的一部分，她也是我一部分。在临终关怀的病床上，她比起自己的痛苦和不适，反而更关心护士。

She was a person that was that felt most herself when she was able to heal care and nourish and contain others in a in a gentle way. I've heard that it was she who kind of encouraged you to look into acting. Yeah, so I was in a bit of a lost place and She had the trust in me. I suppose all the trust in my burgeoning soul my my as yet undiscovered soul That that it would emerge if given the right space and the right encouragement. She was a very creative person herself but it was always applied to things that were practical things that were nourishing for others. It was an amazing cook She was a mate. She was a drafts person for an architecture firm.

她是一个在能够以温柔的方式治愈、关心、滋养和包容他人时，最能做自己的人。我听说是她鼓励你去尝试演戏的。是的，当时我有些迷茫，而她对我充满信任。我想她完全信任我正在成长的灵魂——那个尚未被发现的灵魂，相信在适当的空间和鼓励下，它会显现出来。她是一个非常有创造力的人，但她总是将这种创造力应用于实际且能滋养他人的事情上。她是个了不起的厨师，也是一家建筑公司的制图师。

She was a lampshade maker for my dad's lampshade company But if she was I imagine if she was given free reign of her own creativity She could have you know made masterpieces. She was desperate for me to to find something that I could connect to and I tried art I tried painting sculpture, you know, you name it music and then I did the last resort which was joined the circus and do it outside of school drama class. I was 15 literally joined not literally but Ultimately, it's kind of what's happened stranger than the actual circus brand. Yeah, a more grotesque. I And and basically I did my first drama class and I loved it and I felt accepted.

她曾在我父亲的灯罩公司做灯罩制作工匠。但我想如果她能自由发挥自己的创意，她可能会创造出惊人的作品。她非常希望我能找到一个能够让我投入其中的事情。我尝试过艺术、绘画、雕塑，还有音乐，几乎所有的事情。最后，我选择了看似最不得已的选择，那就是加入马戏团，并在校外的戏剧课上进行。我当时15岁，其实并没有真的加入马戏团，不过某种程度上，这种经历比真正加入马戏团还要怪异，而且更具冲击感。基本上，我第一次上戏剧课时就非常喜欢，觉得被接纳了。

I felt like I belonged And it was really the beginning of of the rest of of all of this. I am reminded of a moment the night before the Oscars when I was nominated for a film called Hacks or Ridge and I took my parents to this night before party at the Fox lot And my mom had a glass and a half of wine which is a rare occurrence for her And she got loose and she got bold and we were all dancing and we were with Jack Black the wonderful Jack Black and And he's dancing with my mother and he says You must be so proud you must be so proud of him. What is it? It isn't nature or isn't nurture and my mom He's saying this on the dance floor Shouted at the top of his lungs exactly and my mom gets right up goes right out from him crabs and by the lapels and she says it was me It was all me and in those very rare flashes of of like Expressed This is who I am like she would never do that without without some alcohol in her system, which was very very rare

我感到自己找到了归属感，那真的是未来一切的开始。我想起了一幕，是奥斯卡颁奖典礼的前一晚，我凭借一部叫《血战钢锯岭》的电影获得提名。我带父母去福克斯电影公司参加一个前夜派对。我妈妈那晚喝了一杯半红酒，这对她来说是很少见的，结果她变得放松而大胆。我们都在跳舞，旁边还有杰克·布莱克，那位很棒的演员。他和我妈妈一起跳舞时说：“你一定很为他骄傲吧，这到底是天性使然，还是后天培养的结果呢？”他在舞池里大声说着，而我妈妈立刻走上前，抓住他的衣领喊道：“都是我，全都是我。”平时，我妈妈很少这样明确表达自己，但那晚借着酒劲，她显露出这个平时难以展现的一面。

And yeah, I think I do I do oh Her Haron met dreams her The sacrifices she's made her longing, you know, I think like it probably emanated from her own Deep deep longing to encourage me in that way she died in 2019 a pancreatic cancer just before COVID. How long had she been ill for? About a year and a half so she she hung in man like I was about to say you know she fought it for as long as I don't like that language. I don't like the idea of defeating Cancer I don't like it doesn't feel fair to me that that language is used because my mom My mom fought until she couldn't fight anymore and it doesn't make her not a success story

是的，我想我真的明白她。她的梦想、她所做的牺牲、她的渴望都深深地感染了我。我想她是希望通过这种方式鼓励我。她在2019年因胰腺癌去世，就在新冠疫情前。她生病多久了？大约一年半。她一直坚持着，我想说她真的拼尽了全力，不过我不喜欢用“战胜癌症”这样的语言。我不认为这样形容是不公平的，因为我妈妈一直坚持到最后，这并不意味着她不是一个成功的例子。

I reject the idea that she was defeated in any kind of way by any kind of thing She fought it for a long time she we treated it in lots of different ways. She suffered That's the thing that I still am struggling with when I really think about it that I can't reconcile with The the concept of a higher power or the concept of God or some Universal cosmic Design The suffering The physical agony There was no way of avoiding it. We did everything we could to avoid it to circumnavigate it to heal it to treat it She went through two or three rounds of chemo radiotherapy and Experimental drugs and her nausea was so Unbelievably brutal every day That you know she had to go through lots of different cycles of Deciding whether she was going to continue to try to Stay alive

我不接受她被任何事物打败的说法。她抗争了很长时间，我们用各种方法治疗她。她经历了痛苦。每当我认真思考时，仍然让我无法释怀的是，这种痛苦让我难以与更高力量、上帝或某种宇宙设计的概念相调和。她承受了身体上的痛苦，而无法避免。我们尽了一切努力来避免、绕过、治愈、治疗这种痛苦。她经历了两三轮化疗、放疗和实验性药物治疗，而她的恶心每天都异常严重。她不得不在多个阶段反复考虑是否要继续努力活下去。

You were able to be with her at the end. Yeah. Yeah I was able to do that with my mom and it is Uh Among the most extraordinary experiences of it's really of my life. Yeah Same and so happy that you Had the privilege of of that and I think The fact that she died at the end of 2019 was a small blessing or a big blessing because if it had been a few months later My family may not have been able to Have our skin touching hers and Read her poetry that she loved or rub her feet or Be the ones to people in the ice around her mouth And to hear her cry out when she was in pain like The idea of not being there for that fills me with a borrowed grief from those people that have lost Their closest people and and had not been able to be with them. I I can't imagine anything Anything more more horrific. I had The best possible version of a goodbye with my mother Without the ending that I had I'm not sure where I'd be.

你能够在最后时刻陪伴着她。是的，我能够做到这一点，我也曾在我母亲生命的最后时刻陪伴在她身边。这是我一生中最非凡的经历之一。我也是这样，非常庆幸能有这样的机会。我觉得她在2019年末去世是一个小小的祝福，甚至可以说是一个大大的祝福。因为如果她晚几个月离世，我的家人可能都无法触碰到她的肌肤，无法在她喜欢的诗歌中读给她听，无法给她按摩脚丫，也无法在她嘴边放上冰块，听到她在疼痛中呼唤。想到那些没能陪伴在最亲爱的人身边的人，心中不由得感到一种借来的悲伤。我无法想象还有什么比这更可怕的事情。我和我母亲有着最好的告别方式，没有这个结尾，我不知道自己现在会在哪。

I'm not sure if I'd be able to eloquently talk about it to be honest There was a moment where you're walking along a beach and yeah, you Did you remember this moment? I do what happened. Yeah, so I've had some profile moments with nature and This one was one of the most I think and it I was It was before she passed She was really sick and we it was unsure what the future would be like I could feel In my body this Stuckness in my chair like my solar plexus area. There's something there and I can't cry I can't like there's no release here right now I'm just anxious and I I'm stuck somewhere and I can't relax and I'm fidgety and I'm maybe having like a low level panic attack so I walk along the beach And you know, it's not a very pleasant day. It's kind of cold early autumn and the waves are pretty wild and gray and choppy And but without thinking I just kind of I get I get I stripped down and I Find myself submerged in in the ocean.

翻译成中文： 说实话，我不太确定自己能否很有口才地谈论这件事。有一个时刻，你在海滩上行走，对，就是那个时刻。你记得吗？我记得，那时发生了什么？是的，我与大自然有过一些深刻的时刻，而这个时刻是其中最深刻的之一。当时她还没去世，但病得很重，我们对未来感到不确定。我能感受到身体里的这种滞碍感，就像在我的太阳神经丛区域，有东西卡住了，我无法哭泣，无法释放情感。我感到焦虑，仿佛被困住了一样，无法放松，总是不安地动来动去，可能像是在经历轻微的惊恐发作。 于是，我在海滩上散步，那天天气不是很好，有些冷，是初秋时节，浪很大，海水灰暗并且波涛汹涌。在没多想的情况下，我脱掉衣服，发现自己已经浸入了海水中。

And it just kind of happened like a flash It was like a download of information I get a bunch of information or a bunch of knowledge And then I'm able to put it into some kind of words. It's a bizarre thing that happens The quote that I read from you and which is why I bring this up and it was this particular part which I found just so fascinating You said As soon as my full body and head were submerged It was like I got the medicine and my chest released and I let it all go My interpretation of that moment was that it was the wisdom of nature the wisdom of the earth The wisdom of the ocean letting me know hey, yeah, it's hard. It's horrible I'm not taking away this unique pain. You're feeling but just so you know Us out here us water molecules. We've been seeing this for millennia And actually this is the best case scenario for you to lose her rather than for her to lose you This is a much better situation.

这件事就像闪电般发生了，就像一次信息的下载。我获得了一堆信息或知识，然后我能够把它用文字表达出来。这是一件奇怪的事情。关于这段话，我之所以提到它是因为我读到你的一段话，其中有一个部分让我觉得很有趣。你说，当我全身和头部沉入水中时，就像得到了治疗，我的胸口释放了压力，我把一切都放下了。对于那个时刻，我的理解是，这是大自然的智慧、地球的智慧、海洋的智慧让我知道，嘿，是的，这很难，很糟糕。我没有否认你所感受到的独特痛苦，但我想让你知道，我们在这里，我们这些水分子，已经见证了这一切上千年。实际上，对你来说，这种情况可能算是最佳选择——失去她，而不是她失去你。这是一个更好的局面。

And again my ego was holding on my ego thought I knew better my ego said no this doesn't make sense no no no It should be this way. It should be that way But actually it took the ocean the greater opponent to just hold me under and say it's really horrible in sons have been Hmm Hmm And sons have been losing their mothers for thousands and thousands of years and they will continue to and you've just been initiated into that awareness And into that reality some illusion has been lifted you're in a realer version of the world now and it's painful Thank you for connecting with it with your heart and I know I know that it's I know that it's true Because Those aren't my words You know what I mean like that's not I take no credit. I guess my ears were open enough to hear maybe the pain in my chest was like A depth of longing to understand and to want come it was like it was like I was asking for comfort.

再一次，我的自我在作祟。我的自我认为我更聪明，自我说不，这没有道理，不不不，事情应该是这样的，应该是那样的。然而，事实上，大海，这个更强大的对手，把我压在水下，对我说，这真的很糟糕。几千年来，儿子们失去母亲，而这种情况还将继续，在这个过程中，你被引导去意识到并接受这种现实。一些幻想被揭开了，现在你进入了一个更真实的世界，这很痛苦。谢谢你用心去感受，我知道这是真的。因为，那些话不是我的，就像我没有功劳一样。也许我的耳朵足够敏锐去听，也许我心中的痛苦是一种对理解和渴望安慰的深层渴望，就像我在寻求安慰一样。

Like I had to We have to ask to be helped in these moments Otherwise, we don't we don't get any medicine. We don't get the help We have to Being enough pain and enough longing to say help me And only with that with collaborating in that way with approaching The mystery and in that way of with all that vulnerability and with all that Confusion and with all that lossness Do we get any kind of answer I think and I think the answer is relative to the question And the willingness to ask the question and the willingness to not know the answer. So I think the only thing I can take credit for in in terms of receiving that information was I allowed myself to feel broken. I just allowed myself to be in pain and I allowed my I didn't Run away from it. I ran towards it and I said help me and the ocean had a great a great answer a really tremendous answer.

翻译为中文可以是： 就像我不得不这样做的一样，我们必须在这些时刻请求帮助。否则，我们不会得到任何药物或帮助。我们必须感受到足够的痛苦和渴望，才能说出“帮助我”。只有通过这种方式，与那种神秘感协作，以所有的脆弱、困惑和迷失去接近它，我们才能获得某种答案。我认为答案是相对于问题的，以及愿意提问和不知道答案的意愿。因此，我认为在获取这些信息方面，我唯一能做到的就是允许自己感到破碎。我只是让自己置身于痛苦之中，没有逃避它，而是迎向它，并说“帮助我”，大海给了我一个非常精彩的答案。

And I say opponent there About the ocean but it for me it's more like mint. It's a mentor It's like A grandfather or a grandmother that idea Suns have been losing their mothers for thousands and thousands of years and they will continue to and you've just been initiated into that awareness and into that reality I find that so extraordinary and that idea is something which I had never put it into words like that, but the there's something comforting about I mean grief feels so lonely and yet I mean this is a road that has been well-traveled We live in apartments that belong to other people before us and we don't know anything about their lives Living in their rooms and we think that what is happening to us is so unique and so tragic and so horrible and yet It has happened to our fathers and to their fathers and to their fathers before them That's beautiful and I as you're speaking I As I get some images came up for me of um Indigenous people who We're just playing catch up here, you know what I mean like we modern descendants of You know colonizing western kind of values cut off from The concept of death and integrated um Connection to death what you just described and so beautifully and and and poetically Is something that all indigenous cultures Know and practice and keep close to themselves.

这段话的大意是，虽然有人可能将海洋视为对手，但对我而言，它更像是一个导师，就像是祖父或祖母。太阳失去母亲的过程已经持续了数千年，并将继续下去，而我们只不过是刚刚对此有所意识。尽管悲伤让人感到孤独，但这种经历是许多人曾经历过的。我们住在曾属于他人的房子里，对他们的生活一无所知，却认为自己遭遇的是如此独特和悲惨的。然而，这一切早已发生在我们的祖辈身上，一代代传下来。这种想法很美丽。 同时，我设想了原住民的情况，与他们相比，我们现代人好像只是在追赶。他们与生死联系紧密，那种与死亡相结合的观念深植于他们文化中，是他们珍视并传承的。而这种理解对于我们受西方殖民影响的现代人而言，往往是隔绝的。你的描述非常美丽而富有诗意，这种对死亡的认识是所有原住民文化都了解并实践的。

And the tragedy of the culture that we've been um born into one of the main tragedies is this this location from That reality the um and and the humility that it brings the humility the an awareness of death and an awareness of offer agility brings you said that you allowed yourself to be That you were broken and that you at that you asked for help I've just really in the last year Been struggling a lot and realized I came to the realization about a year ago that I have never actually grieved that um I buried all of that very quickly as a little boy and propelled myself forward and um It is only within the last year That I woke up to that going through the boxes my things that belongs to my mom my dad and my brother Which had never been gone through I a year ago I opened up the first box and Literally turned up via box my dad's papers who was a writer and the first file I opened up was an essay He wrote called the importance of grieving oh my god It was he wrote about what happens to children who don't allow themselves who are not allowed to grieve when they're Kids oh my god.

我们所生活的文化中存在的一个主要悲剧是与现实的脱节，而这种脱节带来了一种谦逊感，以及对死亡的意识和对脆弱的认知。你曾说过，你允许自己被打破，并请求帮助。在过去的一年里，我也一直在努力，并在一年前意识到我从来没有真正地哀悼过。我在小的时候就很快将这些情感埋藏起来，并让自己不断向前。而就在过去一年中，我在翻看属于我妈妈、爸爸和哥哥的物品时才真正醒悟。一年前，我首次打开了一个箱子，翻看我父亲的文件——他是一个作家。令我震惊的是，我打开的第一个文件夹里，是他写的一篇文章，题目是《哀悼的重要性》。天哪，他在文中写到那些在童年时期没有机会或不被允许去哀悼的孩子会经历什么。天哪。

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a big believer in things like that It's made me I know I know and I realized that's exactly what I've done and so for me the last year have been trying to understand How to turn toward that grief that's been buried that's a really that I mean that strikes me in such a profound way And in terms of sorry, I'm just caught. I'm so caught on finding this essay on top of this box And like what made you go for that box? I know I mean, it was completely random. There's a hundred boxes in my basement and I that's the one I picked and Literally the first file I opened up and it's I've read most of my dad's writings. I've never seen this as I before remarkable.

好的，我的意思是，我并不太相信那些东西，但我明白那对我产生了影响。我意识到我之前也是这样做的，所以在过去一年里，我一直在努力理解如何面对那些被埋藏的悲伤。这让我感受到了一种深刻的冲击。对不起，我现在有些困扰，因为我在这个箱子上找到了这篇文章。你为什么会选择那个箱子？我知道，这完全是随机的。我地下室有上百个箱子，而我选中了这个。我打开的第一个文件就是这个。我读过很多我父亲的文章，但从未见过这篇，真是不可思议。

Yeah, it feels I don't know it it helps support the theory of You know divine plan and are interconnectedness. There's a poem by Rilke That I like it's and it sort of relates to stuff that I'm thinking about a lot. He wrote It's possible. I am pushing through solid rock Inflent-like layers as the or lies alone I'm such a long way in and I see no way through and no space Everything is close to my face and everything close to my face is stone I don't have much knowledge yet in grief. So this massive darkness makes me small You be the master make yourself fierce break in Then your great transforming will happen to me and my great grief cry will happen to you.

是的，我觉得这可能支持一种理论：一种神圣计划和我们之间的相互关联。里尔克有一首我很喜欢的诗，它在某种程度上与我经常思考的东西有关。他写道：“我可能正在穿越像胶体层一样的坚硬岩石，就像矿石孤立无援。我走了很远，却看不到出路，也没有空间。所有东西都贴近我的面庞，而所有贴近的东西都是石头。我在悲伤方面没有太多的知识，所以这巨大的黑暗让我变得渺小。你是大师，变得无畏，冲破它。于是你伟大的转变将发生在我身上，而我巨大悲伤的呐喊将传递给你。”

Mm-hmm. I love that poem. I love Rilke and I haven't had that poem in a while What why is that speaking to you particularly right now? I mean, I'm trying to learn how to grieve basically and What I've come to realize is the little boy that I was who buried that grief uh and That little boy is so still very much present in me and comes to the surface More and more and is sort of banging on the door in a way that I've never experienced before And I've realized that the voice inside my head is this voice that I Have been using to protect that little boy my entire life and keep everything uh safe and at bay and by doing that I've not allowed myself to experience great sadness, but also not allowed myself to experience great joy Because I don't think you can have one without the other. I have to experience this idea that You know, I do feel small in front of this massive darkness that I feel like a lazyhead of me.

嗯嗯。我很喜欢那首诗。我喜欢里尔克，我有一段时间没读到那首诗了。为什么这首诗现在特别引起你的共鸣呢？ 我正在尝试学习如何哀悼。我意识到，我曾经是一个把悲伤埋藏起来的小男孩，而那个小男孩在我心中仍然非常活跃。最近，他愈发频繁地浮出水面，就像是在猛烈地敲打着我的心门，这是我前所未有的体验。 我还意识到，我内心的声音一直是为了保护那个小男孩，为了保持一切安全而存在的声音。然而，这种保护让我无法真正体验巨大的悲伤，同时也无法体验到巨大的快乐，因为我认为这两者是不可分割的。 如今，我必须学会面对这个概念：在这无边的黑暗面前，我感到自己如此渺小，这种感觉让我觉得我必须去面对眼前的困境。

Hmm For a lot of people I think the first time they learned perhaps of your mom's death was when you were on a Stephen Colbert show in 2021 I just want to play the question that Stephen asked you in some of your response. Okay. I know that you yourself Uh have suffered great grief just recently with the loss of your mother and I'm sorry for your family's loss Thank you, and I'm wondering how Doing this show or any show how art itself helps you deal with grief. Yeah um I love talking about it by the way, so if I cry it's only like It's only a beautiful thing. This is all the unexpressed love, right the grief That will remain with us You know Until we pass because we didn't we never get enough time with each other, right?

嗯，对很多人来说，他们可能第一次了解到你母亲去世的消息，是在你参加2021年的《斯蒂芬·科尔伯特秀》时。我想播放斯蒂芬问你的问题和你的一些回答。 好的。我知道你自己 最近因失去母亲而承受了巨大的悲痛，我对你和你的家人的损失感到遗憾。谢谢。我想知道，做这个节目或者其他任何节目，艺术本身如何帮助你应对悲伤。 嗯，我很喜欢谈论这件事，所以如果我哭了，那也是件美好的事情。这都是未曾表达的爱，对吧，悲伤会一直伴随着我们，因为我们从来没有和彼此度过足够的时间，对吗？

Um no matter if someone lives till 60 15 or you know 99 and so I hope this grief stays with me because it's all the unexpressed love that I didn't get to tell it and I told her every day We all we all told her every day. She was the best of us How's that grief stayed with you? Yeah, see you now And You feel it now. Yeah, and it's the only root To feeling her close again That's the crazy thing. It's like again, it's It's the it's the longing it's the it's the it's the admission of the pain It's the crying out I need you with are you I miss you so much and only in that absence Only in really inhabiting that absence being that little boy At the bottom of the empty cave in vast darkness And just kind of crying out That's the only moment that she that she comes.

呃，不管一个人活到60岁、15岁，还是99岁，我希望这种悲伤能伴随我，因为那是我未曾表达的爱，我没能对她说出口的爱。其实我每天都告诉她，我们所有人每天都告诉她，她是我们中最好的人。 这些悲伤有留在你身边吗？是的，现在就能感受到。而这是唯一能再次感受到她在身边的途径。这真是个奇怪的事情，就是那份渴望，那种承认痛苦的感受，那种呼喊“我需要你，我非常想念你”，只有在那种缺失之中，只有在真正沉浸于那种缺失之中，成为那个在空荡洞穴底部哭泣的小男孩，那是她再次到来的唯一时刻。

Like that's there's like it's a necessity and It's so weird. It's like the longing and the grief I'm fully inhabiting it and feeling it is the only way I can is the only way I can really feel close to her again The grief and the loss is the only root to the vitality of being alive The wound is the only root to the gift I'm really grateful for you sharing what you've shared about Yourself is a little boy and the little boy that Continues to live in you and the the melancholy that seems to have followed you and I don't know I it's It's it is a tragedy that we aren't Educated earlier. It's it's a tragedy that we aren't encouraged earlier and I think No one is exempt for that from that to a degree. I think it's cultural. It's A taboo even though your dad was writing about it.

就像是一种必要性一样，这一切显得很奇怪。就像那种渴望和悲伤，我完全沉浸在其中，感受它，这是唯一让我能再次靠近她的方法。悲伤和失去是感受生命活力的唯一途径。伤口是得到礼物的唯一途径。 我非常感激你分享你小时候的经历，以及那个依然活在你心中的小男孩，还有似乎一直伴随你的忧郁。我觉得，这是一种悲剧，我们没有早点受到教育，也没有早点受到鼓励。我认为，每个人在一定程度上都逃不掉这种状况。我觉得这是一种文化现象，是禁忌，即使你的父亲曾写过关于这方面的内容。

It's so wild Or maybe this is part of the grand design as well and you were meant maybe you wouldn't have Maybe without maybe you needed to run away So that you could be here So then reveal it there's a writer Francis Weller who we've interviewed on the podcast But he talks about sort of developing a companionship with grief and I do think To your point it is the only time I I feel so close to my dad to my brother and What I have found just in the small steps that I've begun to take to kind of turn toward the grief and sort of Touch it and then come back and touch it again. I'm actually able to Feel them in a way that I've not allowed myself to for a long time and it's Yeah, it's it's lovely.

这真是太疯狂了，或者这也是宏伟计划的一部分，也许你本来就注定要这样。可能如果没有这些经历，也许你不会这么做。或许你需要逃避一下，这样你才能来到这里，从而揭示出一些东西。有一位名叫弗朗西斯·韦勒的作家，我们在播客中采访过他。他谈到了如何与悲伤建立一种伴随关系。我确实觉得，正如你所说，这是让我感受到与父亲和兄弟如此接近的唯一时刻。我发现，通过我迈出的这些小步骤，试着去面对悲伤、触碰它，然后再回过头来再次触碰它，我实际上能够以一种长期没有允许自己去感受的方式感受到他们。这是一种美好的感觉。

Yeah, and does it feel like you Is it like small doses? It feels like a yeah, because it still feels overwhelming So I can envision a day where I mean for the first time I think I can sort of envision a day where someday it won't be this giant enormous Black abyss which I feel like this little boy is standing on the edge of it'll be something which I can Yeah, carry with me and have space for and live with Right, right visit and and know that you you'll be back in a moment.

好的，这听起来像是在说一个逐渐适应的过程。虽然还是感觉有些不知所措，但我开始能想象有一天，它不会再是一个巨大的、无边无际的黑暗深渊。我好像站在这个边缘的小男孩，总有一天我能带着这些感受生活，有足够的空间去承载它们，对吗？是的，会有这样的一天，然后偶尔去回忆一下，但知道自己会很快回到现在的生活中。

Yeah, you can hang out for as long as you want or Even I mean the ultimate feels like to be able to travel with it constantly as a companion as a keychain as a Talisman it were you surprised you know when you were when you said that on On cobert yeah, he got a huge amount of response and um And I had done an interview with Steven short several weeks after my mom died and I had asked him a question and that had also gotten As similarly huge response at the time and it really struck me is I just think there's such a Dirt of people talking about this thing which all of us go through and which all I mean every single person goes through this It is wild to me then we're not talking about this all the time.

是的，你可以随意待多久。甚至，我的终极感觉是能够一直像护身符一样随身携带它，比如作为钥匙链。当你在柯尔伯特秀上说这些时，你感到惊讶吗？嗯，对，这件事引起了大量的反响。我在母亲去世几周后接受了史蒂文·肖特的采访，我问了他一个问题，那时也引起了同样巨大的反响。这让我深受触动，我觉得大家对这个事情的讨论实在太少了，而这个事情是我们每个人都会经历的。我真的觉得不可思议，为什么我们没有一直在讨论这个话题。

That people aren't like on the bus like who have you lost? I mean like it just feels like this enormous Thing which we're all just ignoring. I don't know. Yeah, I yeah, absolutely. Why why is that why why is it not um Um Why is it a not a supported topic? Why is it why is it a threat? Why have we exiled the conversation? I'm genuinely curious about that. I feel like death is seen as this weakness as this shameful thing So yeah, I'm really really curious. I'm really really curious about our Our fear of it our avoidance of it your new film we live in time It is I mean there's it is a lot about grief Yeah, it feels like every scene's about grief It follows the a couple just a couple of ordinary people who Love each other and one as much time together as possible and want to create a life together and there's a burgeoning awareness of that Time being short and conditional And therefore every single moment feels Very sacred tiny little moments big expansive moments It's like a meditation on the shortness and sacredness of life and yeah, it's a beautiful film.

人们在公共汽车上不会像这样谈论“你失去了谁？”我的意思是，这似乎是一个我们都忽略的巨大问题。我不知道。是的，我完全同意。为什么会这样？为什么这不是一个被支持的话题？为什么成了一种禁忌？我们为什么把这个话题排斥在外？我真的很好奇。我觉得死亡常常被视为一种弱点或羞耻的事情。所以，我真的很想知道我们对它的恐惧和回避。你们的新电影《我们活在时间里》，其中有很多关于悲伤的内容。感觉每个场景都与悲伤有关。电影讲述了一对普通情侣，他们相爱，想尽可能多地在一起，想共同生活，并逐渐意识到时间有限、有条件。因此，每一个时刻都显得非常神圣，无论是小小的片刻还是广阔的时光。就像是在冥想生命的短暂与神圣，是一部美丽的电影。

It was beautiful to inhabit um and it feels meditative and it feels Very wise and it feels full of rage as well Raging against the dying of the light, you know, it's um yeah, it was a beautiful thing to inhabit. Do you feel rage? Linger I have I absolutely have yeah um I it not as strongly as I Expected to the suffering as I said before it's the suffering where I can Become Job on the mountaintop because this doesn't make sense because she was a pure spirit and would never hurt a fly so you you explain this shit to me and There is no explanation again. It's like It's it's a it's a mystery why she had to have that ending. I don't know I'm never gonna know do you find it hard to live in a world where there isn't a why in moments.

居住在其中感觉是件美好的事情，仿佛在冥想，同时也感到智慧满满，但也充满了愤怒——那种对抗光芒消逝的愤怒。对，这确实是一个美好的体验。你感到愤怒吗？我感受过，绝对感受过。虽然不是我预期的那种强烈。正如我之前所说，痛苦让我像圣经中的约伯站在山顶，因为这不合逻辑。她是一个纯净的灵魂，连只苍蝇都不愿伤害。你来跟我解释解释这到底怎么回事，而没有答案。这是一个谜，为什么她必须以这样的方式结束。我不知道，我永远也不会知道。你是否觉得在一个没有答案的世界中生活很困难？

Yeah, absolutely um and uh And then you bang your head against that brick wall enough to weigh your Brain dead exhausted and dizzy and bruised and you and then you go okay you win Like mystery wins the ocean wins, you know History wins It's it's it's not my business right now. It's not my business uh if I carried on it would be it would be I don't know It would it would be getistical for me to To demand more answers. It would be it would and and I just There's something beautiful about finding out the limits of our comprehension I think I again hum it's humbling I'm But pet truly longing to be humbled in the face of the greater opponent.

好的，当然，然后当你不断地用头撞那个砖墙，直到你的大脑感到筋疲力尽、头晕目眩、身体受伤，然后你就会说，好吧，你赢了。好像神秘感赢了，大海赢了，历史赢了。这不是我现在该关心的事情。如果我继续追寻答案，那可能会是，怎么说呢，那可能会是自以为是。要求更多的答案，这可能会是自大。而我只是觉得发现我们理解能力的极限有某种美感。我再次觉得这让人感到谦卑。我真的渴望在面对更伟大的对手时变得谦逊。

I I think that helps temper any rage or anger I have I have so much memory to hold on to I have so much I like I have you know I know her smell still I know her voice I know All the different phases of our relationship recordings over yes I have recordings over in lots of photographs and I have a perfume bottle of hers and she was a craft's person She would make things I have a A large crocheted blanket that she made a paper mache dog that she made go that was um covered in lines of her favorite poem by Mary Oliver wild Geese.

我觉得这让我可以缓和心中的任何愤怒或怒火。我有太多的记忆可以珍藏，我有太多喜欢的东西，就像我知道她的气味，我还记得她的声音，记得我们关系中的每个阶段。我有许多录音和照片，甚至还有她的一瓶香水。她是一个手工艺人，会自己做东西。我有一条她织的大毛毯，还有一个纸糊的小狗，上面写满了她最喜欢的玛丽·奥利弗的诗《野鹅》。

Oh, yeah, no the journey it was the journey the poem the journey. I love Mary Oliver too I would mostly read her Mary Oliver when she was in hospice um and she was so polite And so considerate She would never tell me to shut up. She would never ask for what she needed so after every single poem I would say to her again Another or quiet and she I would give her three options and she would say again So I so I would read wild wild geese to her again.

哦，是的，是的，那段旅程，就是旅程，那首诗《旅程》。我也非常喜欢玛丽·奥利弗。我大部分时间在她临终关怀的时候读她的诗给她听。她非常礼貌和体贴，从来不会让我闭嘴，也从不会开口提出自己的需求。所以在每读完一首诗后，我都会问她：再来一首，还是想安静一下？我会给她三个选择，而她总是说“再来一首”。于是，我就又读一次《野鹅》给她听。

I'd be like again another rock or some quiet and she's like maybe some quiet darling Like I had to force I had to force that to ask for what she wanted There's a line in the Mary Oliver poem wild geese Tell me about despair you always will tell you mine Meanwhile the the wild geese Something something something I think we should pull it up Because it is exactly what we're talking about. Should I show you the whole thing?

我就像“再来一块石头”或“安静点”一样，她就说“也许安静点，亲爱的”。我不得不逼着去问她想要什么。玛丽·奥利弗的诗《野鹅》里有一句：“告诉我你的绝望，我会告诉你我的。”同时，野鹅……我觉得我们应该找出来看看，因为这正是我们在谈论的内容。我需要给你看整首诗吗？

Sure. Yes, please you do not have to be good You do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through the desert repenting You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves Tell me about despair yours and I will tell you mine Meanwhile the world goes on Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain are moving across the landscapes Over the prairies and the deep trees the mountains and the rivers Meanwhile the wild geese high in the clean blue air are heading home again Whoever you are no matter how lonely The world offers itself to your imagination calls to you like the wild geese harsh and exciting over and over Announcing your place in the family of things.

当然可以。你不必成为完美的人，你不需要在沙漠中跪着走上一百英里来忏悔。你只需让你的身体这个温柔的生灵去爱它所爱的事物。告诉我关于你的绝望，我也会告诉你我的绝望。同时，世界依然在运转，太阳和雨中的透明石子跨过景观移动，穿过草原、茂密的森林、山脉和河流。在此期间，野鹅在洁净蓝天中翱翔，向家乡飞去。无论你是谁，无论你有多孤单，世界都会向你的想象力敞开，像野鹅那样呼唤你，凶猛而激动，无数次地宣告你在万物大家庭中的位置。

I heard you say something a while ago several years ago that you after your mom W. Feel like your psyche had been rearranged that things tasted different Uh-huh. Can you explain? Probably not but Yeah, that's true and it still is I'm still I'm still adjusting to a new reality like do you feel like a different person now? Yeah, yeah No, I feel like the same person. I just feel Deeper in the same person more expanded more cracked open.

我记得几年前你说过一句话，当时你失去母亲W后，感觉你的心理状态发生了变化，事物的味道都变得不同了。能解释一下吗？可能解释不清，但确实如此，我至今仍在适应这个新的现实。你觉得自己变成了一个不一样的人吗？不，我觉得我还是同一个人，只是感觉自己更深入、更扩展、更加开放了。

It's like the heart brakes and breaks and breaks and lives by breaking In times of great loss and you expand hopefully you become bigger the heart becomes bigger you become more confused uh-uh and and less certain of anything um and For me what I want to be is more curious about What we're all doing here rather than narrow and driven and and and and certain I want I want it to break me open.

这就像心脏一次又一次地受到伤害和粉碎，却依旧靠着这些伤痛而活。在经历巨大失落的时候，希望自己会更加豁达，心胸更加宽广，尽管因此会变得更加困惑，对任何事情都不太确定。对我来说，我想要变得更加好奇，我们每个人在这里的意义，而不是变得狭隘、执着和过于确信。我希望这些经历能让我敞开心扉。

I want to be I want to be lost um if feels healthier than to feel like you know where you're heading And sounds scary. Yeah, yeah it is and and real It's like the the rest is illusion like the idea that we have any um jurisdiction over where we're going or Control it's a it's a fabrication.

我想迷失，因为这种感觉比知道自己要去哪里更健康。虽然听起来很可怕，但这确实如此而且真实。其他的都是幻觉，比如我们对未来有任何控制或掌控的想法，其实都是一种虚构。

I really relate related to what you said about um You know that drive to to to create a life to build something to run towards achievement and success When my mom passed Like three like two thirds of my ambition died with her or or let me say differently two thirds of my previous ambition Or the style or the type or the feeling of that ambition died.

我非常能够理解你所说的那种想要创造生活、建立事业、追求成就和成功的动力。当我妈妈去世的时候，我过去的那种动力就好像死掉了三分之二，或者说，我曾经的那种风格、类型或者感觉的动力消失了。

It's unequivocal now like I know I know for a fact that this is a short life and The things that mattered before Don't matter anymore and I think when I say things taste differently. I think I Think things can taste much more sweet now because of the sorrow that I've felt And they can taste much more bitter by friend of mine spike Jones Talked about it so beautifully to me when he was going through something similar and he would say It's like the landscape gets rearranged It's like Where there was once a hill that you knew really well.

现在已经毫无疑问，我真正明白这个人生如此短暂，以前重要的事情现在已经不再重要。我觉得当我说事物的滋味不同的时候，我是想说，由于我曾经历过的悲伤，现在事物可以尝起来更加甜美，也可能更加苦涩。我的朋友斯派克·琼斯在经历类似的事情时，曾非常美妙地向我描述过这一点，他说，就像景观被重新排列一样，就像一个你非常熟悉的小山丘已经不在原来的地方了。

There's now like a waterfall And in the place where the river once was now there's just desert And behind you where you know your house was there's a swamp It's it's like the world is being re-revealed to you or revealed in a deeper way I was trying to ask everybody is there something you've learned in your grief That you can say that would help others who are listening when mom died.

现在就像瀑布一样，而河流曾经存在的地方现在却是一片沙漠。在你身后，你记得你的房子所在的地方现在是一片沼泽。这就像世界正在重新展现在你面前，或者以更深刻的方式显现出来。我想问每个人，在你悲伤的过程中，你是否学到了什么，可以分享出来帮助那些在倾听的人，当妈妈去世的时候。

I had I have a really incredible group of friends And they were very very they were ingenious in how they handled it emotionally very genius and I feel very grateful for them They would send me messages And it would literally just be I'm here. I've got you It was like Oh Sorry, it was like this web It was like this net of Love and care That a handful of two or three handfuls of friends Assembled underneath me When my mother's net used to be It was like they old kind of joined hands and created a A container for me To feel safe in the loss And I wasn't orphaned you know I was to a degree But the love that held me And it it was profound in its simplicity.

我有一群非常棒的朋友，他们在情感上处理这一切时展现出了极大的聪明才智，我对此感到非常感激。他们发信息给我，内容简单而温暖：我在这里，我支持你。这感觉就像是一张爱与关怀的网，由两三拨朋友在我失去母亲后为我织起了一张安全网。他们仿佛携手为我创造了一个安全的空间，让我在失去中也能感到安心。我知道我并非完全成了孤儿，因为有爱在支撑着我，而这种爱的力量就在于它的简单而深刻。

It wasn't complicated and it wasn't fixing None of these people tried to fix it. They didn't try to run away from it either But basically they were saying if you need us to sit with you While you cry we can do that So maybe that feels more For people that are with other people who are going through grief Because I know that that was a profound life-saving thing for me and allowed me to continue To stay in that process with myself and with the spirit of my mom and with my family Because I knew I was I was held by a large a web and I include the ocean in that group of friends I include the redwoods in that group of friends And I include my mother's spirit in that group of friends and ancestors and art and artists and writers and poets and filmmakers and theater makers and actors like you know I was held by great generous vulnerable artists who also said I need help with this and made me feel less alone.

这段话的中文翻译如下： “事情并不复杂，也无需修复。这些人没有尝试去解决它，也没有试图逃避。基本上，他们在说，如果你需要我们陪着你一起流泪，我们可以做到。对于正在经历悲痛的人来说，这样的支持可能更有意义。我自己体验过，这种支持曾在我生命中起了重要作用，让我能够继续和自己的感受、母亲的精神以及我的家人一起走过这个过程。我知道我被一张大网支持着，我把大海划入朋友的行列，也把红杉林算作朋友。我同样把母亲的灵魂、祖先、艺术、艺术家、作家、诗人、电影制作者、戏剧创作者和演员们都视为朋友。这些慷慨而脆弱的艺术家们也说过，他们需要帮助，这让我感到不再孤单。”

Edgar Phil, thank you so much. Thanks Andersen. This is wonderful. Thank you And it's a service this what what you're doing here. It's like The beginning of a cultural shift for people and and welcoming of this This topic this experience That we're all heading towards whether we like it or not So thank you for all you do here and thank you for letting us know about your mom Thank you.

埃德加·菲尔，非常感谢你。谢谢安德森。这真是太好了。感谢你们。这是一种服务，你们在这里所做的事情，像是在人们中开启了一场文化的转变，并对这个话题和我们都将面对的这个经历表示欢迎，无论我们是否愿意接受。所以，感谢你们在这里所做的一切，也感谢你让我们了解你的母亲。谢谢。