Is Greece Becoming the New Borderland Between East and West? With Sean Matthews
发布时间 2026-01-19 00:20:00 来源
Welcome to Intelligent Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Mia Cerenty. How could Greece's Byzantine and Ottoman past shape its future? On today's episode journalist and author, Sean Matthews, joins us to examine Greece's unique position as a Christian Orthodox state on the edge of the Islamic world. Across centuries, it has served as a political and cultural crossroads, and now its position between Europe and the Near East is becoming ever more significant in today's fraught geopolitical context. Let's join our host, Helen Carr, now with more.
欢迎来到Intelligent Squared，这是一个让伟大思想相会的地方。我是制作人米娅·塞伦蒂。希腊的拜占庭和奥斯曼历史如何塑造其未来？在今天的节目中，记者兼作家肖恩·马修斯将与我们一起探讨希腊作为一个东正教国家，位于伊斯兰世界边缘的独特地位。几个世纪以来，希腊一直是政治和文化的交汇点，而现在，在当前紧张的地缘政治背景下，其位于欧洲和近东之间的重要位置变得更加显著。让我们和主持人海伦·卡尔一起继续探索这个话题。
Welcome to Intelligent Squared. I'm Helen Carr and our guest today is Sean Matthews. Sean is a Greek American journalist who has over the course of his career covered the Middle East as a correspondent with the Middle East eye. Sean is also written for the economist and AI monitor amongst others. The new Byzantines, the rise of Greece and the return of the Near East, is his first book. Welcome to Intelligent Squared, Sean. Thank you for having me, Helen. It's a pleasure to be here.
欢迎来到Intelligent Squared。我是Helen Carr，今天我们的嘉宾是Sean Matthews。Sean是一位拥有希腊血统的美国记者，在其职业生涯中，他作为中东之眼的特派记者报道了中东地区。此外，Sean还为《经济学人》和《AI Monitor》等媒体撰稿。《新拜占庭：希腊的崛起与近东的回归》是他的第一本书。欢迎来到Intelligent Squared，Sean。谢谢邀请我，Helen。很高兴能来到这里。
Greece, in your work, seems to be having a comeback. Historically, it's perhaps been seen as a power on the edge of Europe, rather than necessarily being immersed within it. And there's been a bit of a push pull as to where it is exactly belongs, as European state or as something that belongs more to the Middle East. And I think your title gives a lot of a way in relation to your argument with this. And so why did you decide on the title the New Byzantines?
在你的作品中，希腊似乎正在经历一次复兴。从历史上看，希腊可能一直被视为欧洲边缘的一个势力，而不一定完全融入欧洲内部。关于它究竟属于欧洲国家还是与中东关系更密切，一直存在一些争议。我认为你的标题在这方面透露了很多关于你论点的信息。那么，为什么你决定将标题定为“新拜占庭”？
Yeah, I mean, look, I think that's kind of the forever Tussle with Greece is a part of the East or part of the West. And the story with Greece really since it emerged as an independent state out of the Ottoman Empire in 1832 or was created after Revolution was kind of this pull towards the West. Really from the mid-19th century, all the way up until the postwar era, Greece was always being folded in the direction of the West, whether that was from big European powers during the colonial era like Britain, which really took an independent Greece under its wing.
是的，我是说，我认为这就是希腊自独立以来一直面临的永久性拉锯战：到底是属于东方还是西方。自1832年从奥斯曼帝国独立或经过革命建立以来，希腊的历史就是一种向西方倾斜的过程。从19世纪中期一直到战后时代，希腊一直被引导向西方，无论是殖民时代的大国如英国，都像扶持一个独立的希腊一样，将其纳入西方的怀抱。
And then in the postwar era, the United States pulling Greece into NATO, and obviously Greece joined the European Union. But what I say in the book is that at this stage now, with a decline we're seeing of Western powers in Europe, in Greece's geographical position kind of under periphery of Europe, as you said, it's being pulled back to the East, which of course, it was always a part of, I say, right? This goes back to the Byzantine Empire, then Greece is kind of 400, 500 year period of rule under the Ottoman Empire. And those trends, those currents are reasserting themselves today.
在战后时期，美国将希腊纳入北约联盟，希腊显然也加入了欧盟。但正如我在书中所说的，如今在西方力量在欧洲的影响力下降的情况下，希腊因为地理位置接近欧洲边缘，就像你提到的，开始重新向东方靠拢。毕竟，希腊一直是东方的一部分，可以追溯到拜占庭帝国时期，然后希腊有大约400至500年的时间由奥斯曼帝国统治。这些趋势和潮流如今再次显现出来。
I mean, I'm quite interested as a historian, and with a childhood fascination with Greece, as a space of incredible archaeology and the ancient world. How much do you think some of the 19th century antiquarian archaeologists and that fascination with Greece has. How responsible do you think that was in relation to Greece becoming adopted as this sort of part of the Western interest?
我是说，作为一个历史学家，我对考古和古希腊有着浓厚的兴趣——从小就对希腊这个充满奇妙考古遗迹和古代世界的地方着迷。你认为19世纪那些古物研究考古学家以及对希腊的这种着迷，对希腊成为西方兴趣的一部分负有多大责任?
Oh, it was very important. I mean, the whole. So basically what you had was, you have to really go back to the collapse of the Roman Empire. I don't want to get too lengthy on it, but to really kind of ground us. Once the Roman Empire, it split into the Eastern and the Western halfs. And all in the Roman Empire collapse, the Eastern half of the empire continued for centuries afterwards, really right up until the 1400s as the Byzantine Empire. And this was an Eastern Empire that, you know, it ruled over present-day Palestine, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt.
哦，这件事非常重要。我的意思是，整个过程。所以基本上我们需要回顾到罗马帝国的衰落。我不想讲得太长，但为了帮助我们理解，当罗马帝国分裂为东部和西部两部分时，在罗马帝国西部崩溃后，东部地区作为拜占庭帝国继续存在了几个世纪，一直到1400年代。这是一个东部帝国，它曾统治着现今的巴勒斯坦、以色列、叙利亚、黎巴嫩和埃及地区。
And of course, it's heartland. It's based on Constantinople. What is today Istanbul? So, hence that's the Byzantine part of the title. Of course, the Europeans, the Western Europeans, were much more interested in ancient Greece, as you're saying, right? The archaeologists who came to see the Parthenon, the Cropales, you know, funnily enough, one of the books that I cite quite heavily in my book, The New Byzantines, is a book from the 1970s titled, Grease Without Columns.
当然，这里指的是中心地带。它是以君士坦丁堡为基础的，也就是今天的伊斯坦布尔。因此，这就是标题中"拜占庭"（Byzantine）这个词的来源。正如你所说，欧洲人，尤其是西欧人，对古希腊更加感兴趣。考古学家们来参观帕特农神庙和卫城。巧的是，我在我的书《新拜占庭人》中大量引用的一本书，正是一本1970年代的书，书名叫作《没有柱子的希腊》。
And it's from a British journalist, yeah, David Holden. And basically his whole argument was to kind of unpack this myth of a Western Greece centered on ancient Athens and the birthplace of democracy. And to look at it really as an appendage of the wider Middle East, through the Byzantine history, through its times during the Ottoman, when it was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. And then really right up until today, right?
这段文字来自英国记者大卫·霍尔登。他的主要论点是解构一种以古雅典和民主发源地为中心的西方希腊的神话。他建议从更广阔的中东视角来看待希腊，深入探讨其拜占庭历史，以及在奥斯曼帝国统治时期的经历。这种观点一直延续到今天。
I mean, so many of the issues that Greece faced that face is today, the Cyprus issue, its rivalry with an independent Turkey, the new alliances that it is forging in the Middle East are all basically kind of pointing towards its eastern direction. Yeah, it's hard to think. And I'm guilty of thinking about Greece on those terms as being this sort of ancient space and a space of this incredible history and archaeology. But what you mentioned, Cyprus, and I'm wondering what is the historical relationship, just to sort of ground this between Greece and its neighbors, particularly with Turkey, because Turkey's such an important part of your book.
我的意思是，希腊如今面临的许多问题，例如塞浦路斯问题、与独立土耳其的竞争和中东的新联盟，基本上都指向东方。确实不容易意识到这一点，而我有时也仅仅把希腊看作一个古老而具有非凡历史和考古意义的地方。但你提到塞浦路斯，我想了解一下希腊与邻国之间的历史关系，尤其是与土耳其的关系，因为土耳其在你的书中占有重要地位。
Right, no, the rivalry between Greece and Turkey really kind of defines Greek foreign policy today. And it's something that I think in the West that everyone watches very closely. In general, I always kind of see Turkey and Greece's foils of each other. After World War II, Greece ascended into a horrible civil war between the left and the right. And it was the US intervention, in that US intervention that kind of turned the tide of the war against the communists and put Greece kind of into the Western camp, right?
确实，希腊和土耳其之间的竞争很大程度上定义了当今希腊的外交政策。我认为在西方，大家对此都非常关注。总体来说，我一直觉得土耳其和希腊像是互为对手。在第二次世界大战后，希腊爆发了一场严重的内战，双方是左翼和右翼。而正是美国的干预扭转了战争局势，有利于反对共产主义的一方，从而将希腊纳入了西方阵营。
So Greece and Turkey, they joined NATO at the same time in 1952. And they were always, you know, they were always foes, right? I mean, once Greece got its independence from the Ottoman Empire and Greece kind of the modern states that we know of Greece today, it came about by cloning territory out of the Ottoman Empire. So in the Balkans, you had Greek partisans, you had the Greek army, to various wars and the mid- and late 1900s, basically cloning territory away from the Ottoman Empire and forging what is today the modern borders of Greece.
希腊和土耳其在1952年同时加入了北约。它们一直以来都是对手，对吧？自从希腊从奥斯曼帝国中获得独立以后，现代希腊国家的疆域大部分是从奥斯曼帝国中分割出来的。在巴尔干地区，希腊通过各种战争，包括希腊游击队和军队在19世纪中后期的行动，逐步从奥斯曼帝国手中取得领土，形成了今天希腊的现代国界。
After World War I, Greece and Turkey had a horrible war, which saw Greece actually invade Asia Minor. What is today, you know, the hinterlands and the, you know, the proper territory of Turkey, Greece invaded this area and they tried to rest it back because we're Greek minorities living there. So the ageal tussle between Greece and Turkey, it's a key feature of the book. What I say in the book is that today, what we're seeing is a shift in the balance of power in the Eastern Mediterranean away from Greece and towards Turkey.
在第一次世界大战后，希腊和土耳其之间爆发了一场惨烈的战争，期间希腊入侵了小亚细亚。这片区域现在是土耳其的内陆和领土。希腊当时试图夺回这片土地，因为那里居住着希腊少数民族。希腊和土耳其之间的纷争是这本书的一个重要特征。我在书中提到，如今我们看到的是东地中海地区的势力平衡正在从希腊转向土耳其。
And this has a lot to do with Turkey's rise as an independent power, which I examined through the war in Ukraine, Israel's war in Gaza, and Turkey's growing military might and independence from the West. So historically, you know, Greece was always reliant on Western powers to keep Turkey in check, whether that was Britain or whether that was later after World War II, the U.S. And because of this fracturing of the West, because of, you know, the Trump administration's flirtation with territorial expansion in the Western hemisphere, it's pulled back from Eastern Europe.
这与土耳其作为一个独立强权的崛起有很大关系。我通过乌克兰战争、以色列在加沙的战争，以及土耳其不断增强的军事力量和脱离西方的独立性对其进行了研究。从历史上看，希腊一直依赖西方列强来制衡土耳其，无论是以前的英国，还是二战后的美国。然而，由于西方内部的分裂，以及特朗普政府在西半球领土扩张方面的动向，西方在东欧的影响力有所减弱。
Greece is not able to rely on the United States as much as it was decades ago. So yeah, the rival between Greece and Turkey and the shifting balance of power is a key part of the book. The Greek media is they love to rip up these tensions and it's the nationalist frenzy, the voters love it. But what I say in the book is that, in the old days, you know, the U.S. used to intervene and kind of pull them away from each other.
希腊如今无法像几十年前那样依赖美国。所以，希腊和土耳其之间的竞争以及力量平衡的变化是这本书中的一个关键部分。希腊媒体特别喜欢炒作这些紧张局势，民族主义狂热深受选民喜爱。但我在书中提到的是，以往美国常常会介入并将它们从对抗中拉开。
So in 1996, you saw Greece and Turkey almost went to war over an uninhabited island in the Eastern Mediterranean, the Clinton administration at the time, the U.S. intervened and pulled them apart. And what I say is that as the U.S. pulls out of Eastern Europe and Southern Europe and as the Trump administration and likely future administrations kind of reassess the role of the U.S. in the world, that's much less likely.
1996年，希腊和土耳其几乎因为东地中海的一座无人居住的小岛而爆发战争。时任美国总统的克林顿政府进行了干预，并成功将双方拉开。我想说的是，随着美国逐渐退出东欧和南欧，以及特朗普政府和可能的未来政府重新评估美国在世界上的角色，这样的干预变得不太可能。
And you combine that with a growing Turkey, which is much more independent, that is no longer dependent on the West under President Erdogan. You have this kind of simmering tension in the Eastern Mediterranean, which is always going to be there. So much of this book was written because of your career and your experience, but you open with a lot of these, of a lot of anecdotes about similarities between your own experiences as a Greek American.
结合一个日益独立、在埃尔多安总统领导下不再依赖西方的土耳其，你就会发现东地中海地区一直存在一种潜在的紧张局势。正因为如此，本书的大部分内容都是基于你的职业生涯和经验而写成的，但开篇时你讲了很多关于你作为一个希腊裔美国人所经历的类似情况的轶事。
But also some shared with Lebanese people who you have encountered. Can you explain a little bit more about that and how that was interesting to you in relation to rising the book? Yeah, so I mean, I came to Greece basically as a Greek American fourth generation. You wouldn't know it from my name because it was Americanized. I discussed that in the book. It went from my thales to Matthews.
当然，我来解释一下这段话的意思：但也有一些与你遇到过的黎巴嫩人共享的内容。你能详细解释一下吗？这与你创作这本书有什么有趣的关系？是的，我是作为第四代希腊裔美国人来到希腊的。从我的名字看，你可能看不出来，因为我的名字被美国化了。我在书中提到了这一点，从Mythales改成了Matthews。
But I came back to Greece as a journalist, kind of looking to get a foothold in the Middle East after living in Jordan and Egypt for a while. And I grew up kind of not seeing any similarities between Greece and the wider Middle East. What was the former Byzantine Empire in the former Ottoman Empire? So we would go to the Greek church growing up and we had the Greek customs and rituals like suvlaki, pastitsu, and all of that.
我回到希腊是作为一名记者的，希望在中东地区找到一席之地，因为我之前在约旦和埃及生活过一段时间。我从小就没看出希腊和广义上的中东地区有什么相似之处。过去这里曾是拜占庭帝国的一部分，后来成为奥斯曼帝国的一部分。小时候，我们会去希腊教堂，过着希腊的传统习俗，比如吃苏弗拉基和帕斯提其奥这些食物。
It wasn't until I came back to Greece and 20 plenty and used Greece as a hub to explore the wider region. Basically, as a freelance journalist, traveling between Greece and Jordan, Greece and Lebanon, Greece and Egypt, that I saw all these similarities between the culture as like Turkish coffee, right? Which is really some seriously renamed Greek coffee. And all these other things, right? Even these invocations that you kind of associate with religiosity in the Middle East, for me, that's one of the most fascinating parts of Greek culture. I spend a lot of time in the Middle East. So anyone who goes to the region knows the no phrases like Alhamdulillah or Mashallah that kind of get thrown out by Arab speakers.
直到我在2020年回到希腊，并利用希腊作为探索更广泛地区的中心后，我才注意到这些文化的相似之处。作为一个自由撰稿人，我常常在希腊与约旦、黎巴嫩、埃及之间旅行。在这个过程中，我发现很多文化上的相似，比如土耳其咖啡，这实际上是被重新命名的希腊咖啡。还有许多其他的相似之处，比如那些你可能会和中东宗教信仰联系在一起的祷告词，对我来说，这是希腊文化中最吸引人的部分之一。我在中东地区花了很多时间，所以任何到过这个地区的人都知道像"Alhamdulillah" 或 "Mashallah" 这样常被阿拉伯语使用者提到的词语。
And Greece has the wrong equivalent of those, basically, in Greek. And I think that's a strand I say that connects Greece with the wider Eastern world, the former lands of Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire. And it's something that people who come from the US or the UK to go on vacation in Greece, if you go to Mekinos or Santorini, you miss those things. But it's a very clear kind of anchor that Greece has to the wider Middle East. I'm really interested how you think tourism has played apart in the development of Greece as this incredibly distinct European space. This is a holiday destination.
希腊在这方面有些独特之处，与其他国家有所不同。我认为，这种独特性是连接希腊与东部世界、拜占庭和奥斯曼帝国旧土的一条线索。那些从美国或英国来希腊度假的人，如果只去米科诺斯或圣托里尼这样的地方，可能会错过这些特点。但它确实是希腊与更广泛的中东地区之间的一个明确纽带。我对旅游业在希腊发展为一个极具特色的欧洲地域中所起的作用非常感兴趣，这个地方可是热门的旅游胜地呢。
So somewhere that people have been traveling to for decades of generations, it's become incredibly popularized as a distinctly European, semi-western place space to go and visit. That I think does separate it from the East. And I was wondering how much of an impact you think that that has had when Greece, as you're pointing out, has so many cultural connections to the East. And if you think that that's shifting? No, I think it's there. I mean, look, a lot of the Greeks that I meet in the book, they like to call Greece one gentleman, he called it to me, the soft Middle East.
多年来，人们一直前往一个地方旅行，如今，它已被广泛视为一个具有独特欧洲风情的、半西方的旅游胜地。我认为这使它与东方有了区分。我想知道你认为这对希腊有多大影响，毕竟如你所指出的，希腊与东方有着深厚的文化联系。你觉得这种情况有在改变吗？不，我认为这种情况依然存在。我在书中遇到的很多希腊人，他们中有一位说他喜欢称希腊为“柔和的中东”。
Basically, he said it's Lebanon without Hezbollah and with more girls. And I think that kind of summarized the lore of Greece to maybe the Western tourists, right? You can go to the islands and you can have Uzo, which is like Ardach, the Arabic equivalent of Zardach. You can have Suvlach, almost the same food, but you don't have to worry about the war in conflict. So kind of tongue in cheek, there's a little something there where Greece, it gives the taste of the East to Western tourists, right? I would say, though, that the tourism story features prominently in the book, because there are really two themes that I kind of dissected when I move back to Greece.
基本上，他说这里就像没有真主党的黎巴嫩，还有更多的女孩子。我认为这大概是希腊在西方游客眼中的印象吧？你可以去那些岛屿，品味一杯Uzo，就像阿拉伯的Zardach的对应物Ardach。此外，你还可以享用Suvlach，几乎与当地美食相同，但不用担心战争和冲突。有点开玩笑地说，希腊给西方游客带来了一种东方的味道，是吧？不过，我想说的是，旅游业在这本书中占据了显著的位置，因为在我搬回希腊时，我深入分析了其中的两个主题。
The one is this poll factor that's pulling Greece back to the East, I say, right? To these geopolitical alliances, these threats from neighboring countries. And the other, of course, is Greece's economic recovery from the financial crisis, right? I mean, Greece had a great depression level crisis more than a decade ago. And it was tourism and real estate investment that really saved the Greek economy. And visitors to Athens will see now that the city, it's booming. I say in the book, I mean, try getting a reservation at a mid-popular restaurant on a Thursday night. You can't do it, even in winter, I should say.
一个因素是这种拉力将希腊拉回东方，对吧？这是指地缘政治联盟，以及来自邻国的威胁。另一个因素当然是希腊从金融危机中经济复苏的情况。十多年前，希腊经历了一场如同大萧条般的危机，而旅游业和房地产投资真正拯救了希腊经济。现在去雅典的游客会看到这个城市的繁荣景象。我在书中提到，试着在星期四晚上去一家中等受欢迎的餐厅预订座位。即使在冬天，你也做不到。
I think Athens is having a bit of a renaissance, isn't it? I think it's one of, it has become quite one of these sort of hot new destinations to take. It's very much the right to thrive in the digital nomads who can live and work anywhere, remote work. It's really, it's changed the face of Athens. And it kind of goes along with tourism, right? So what I say in the book is actually, the Greece's economic recovery increases in many ways, the success story for the European Union. Greece's borrowing costs today for lower than that of France's, which is remarkable if you had told someone that in 2013 or 2014.
我觉得雅典正在经历一种复兴，是不是？它已经成为一个非常受欢迎的新兴旅游目的地。对那些可以远程工作、无论在哪里都能生活和工作的数字游民来说，雅典完全是个理想去处。这一变化也改变了雅典的面貌。并且，这也与旅游业密切相关。正如我在书中所说的那样，希腊的经济复苏在很多方面都是欧盟的成功故事。现在希腊的借贷成本甚至低于法国的，这在2013或2014年是不可思议的。
Maybe that says more about Western Europe's decline, then Greece's rise, but everything is relative to a certain point. But again, Greece's economic recovery really is driven by this huge influx of real estate investments, speculation, tourism. And you see it, right? You can see it when you come to Athens or you go to the islands and you see construction everywhere, new boutiques opening up cafes. It's becoming a very trendy city. At the same time, what I talk about in the book is the downside of that for Greece and the Greek people, which is that we're seeing a huge cost of living crisis in Greece for ordinary Greeks, right?
也许这更多地反映了西欧的衰退，而不是希腊的崛起，但一切都是相对的。然而，希腊的经济复苏的确主要依靠大量的房地产投资、投机以及旅游业推动。你能感受到这一点，对吧？当你来到雅典或希腊的岛屿时，你会看到到处都是建筑工地，新开的精品店和咖啡馆。这座城市变得非常时尚。然而，我在书中讨论的是，这对希腊及其人民的负面影响。普通希腊人正在经历严重的生活成本危机，对吧？
We're getting priced out because of real estate speculators and because of this work remote vibe. And Greece's big struggle, the coming years, is going to be how to balance, really, its rise as a tourism powerhouse, I think it's fair to say, which has been a godsend for the country, especially in the way it could be economic crisis. But how do they balance that with the cost of living for ordinary Greek people? Mm-hmm. When you're thinking about Greek tourism, especially in the summers, I'm also, it's interesting that how well it's doing and how well Athens is doing is growing as a city, despite a lot of the climate disaster as there have happened in Greece historically over the last few years as well.
由于房地产投机者和远程办公的兴起，我们的房价被抬得越来越高。希腊在未来几年面临的一大挑战，就是如何平衡作为旅游强国的崛起，这对希腊而言无疑是件好事，尤其是在经济危机的背景下。但是，如何在旅游业蓬勃发展的同时，保持普通希腊人的生活成本不至于过高呢？嗯，这确实是个问题。当你想到希腊的旅游业，尤其是在夏天的时候，确实有趣的是，尽管希腊在过去几年经历过不少气候灾难，雅典这个城市仍在持续发展，表现得越来越好。
I'm thinking particularly of enormous fires and hazards like that. And it still seems to be developing by quite an extraordinary level as to what you're saying. You do talk about 2019 in your book and how these old tropes about Greece are ceasing to exist. Why is 2019 such an important date in relation to how we consider Greece? For me, it's when I started as a Greek American really coming back to Greece more. And one of the sparks for this book was created because I was looking for books to read about Greece, as a young journalist who was coming back here.
我特别想到的是巨大的火灾和类似的危险。而且，这些问题似乎还在以相当惊人的程度发展。你在书中提到了2019年，以及那些关于希腊的旧观念是如何逐渐消失的。为什么2019年在我们重新思考希腊时如此重要？对我来说，那年是我作为希腊裔美国人开始更多回到希腊的时候。这本书的灵感之一就是因为我作为一个回到这里的年轻记者，正在寻找关于希腊的书籍阅读。
And they kind of fell into camps, I say. On the right, you had these books that were written in commentary about Greece as a lazy socialist state within the European Union that was inundated with migrants from the Muslim world, right? I mean, real scaremongering stuff. And then on the left, of course, you had their own criticisms of the neoliberal order and the economic challenges Greece faced, which were genuine in many ways. But they also kind of decried kind of Greece's treatment from Western powers like Germany and the US.
他们大致分成了两个阵营。我这么说吧。在右派阵营，有一些书对希腊在欧盟内作为懒散的社会主义国家的评论，认为希腊被来自穆斯林世界的移民淹没了，这其实是一些危言耸听的论调。而在左派阵营，自然也有他们对新自由主义秩序的批评，以及对希腊所面临的经济挑战的评价，这些批评在很多方面确实是有道理的。与此同时，他们也对希腊受到德国和美国等西方国家的对待表示谴责。
And when I arrived in Greece, when I kind of noticed was that both of those tropes were being smashed to bits, I said, because basically a lot of the investment that we saw coming into Greece was actually from the Muslim world. And from the wider east, right? You have to include Israel on that too, which is a Jewish state. But Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Egyptians, and Turks are really fueling the property boom that's going on in Greece and this construction boom around tourism.
当我到达希腊时，我注意到以往的那些刻板印象被彻底打破了。实际上，我们看到的很多投资主要来自穆斯林世界和更广泛的东方地区。同样，也要包括犹太国家以色列。实际上，来自以色列、巴勒斯坦、黎巴嫩、埃及和土耳其的投资者正在为希腊的房地产热潮和旅游业的建筑热潮提供推动力。
Yeah. So it was kind of an interesting pivot from the scaremongering about migration, which really showed Greece's connection with the wider eastern world. I think one of the trends that I picked up in the book is that because Greece is located in the southern most periphery of the European Union, it's very easy to see the new kind of power centers that are emerging in the world order. And you can see the investments in Greece are coming from Eastern countries.
好的。这是一种有趣的转变，从对移民的恐慌转向更关注希腊与更广泛的东部世界的联系。我在书中注意到的一个趋势是，由于希腊位于欧盟的最南端，所以很容易看出世界秩序中新兴的权力中心。你还可以看到，来自东方国家的投资正在流向希腊。
For example, last year, the United Arab Emirates had one of the largest single foreign direct investments in Greece, which is really remarkable, right? That the biggest source of FDI, single biggest source of FDI in Greece, it wasn't France or Germany, it was the UAE. And that's kind of the old tropes that I'm saying are being smashed to bits because the prism of looking at Greece, first of all, as a lackey to Western capitalism. But then also, as a country that's ravaged by Muslim migration, both of those are totally wrong.
例如，去年阿拉伯联合酋长国在希腊进行了最大的一笔外国直接投资，这真的很了不起，对吧？希腊最大的外国直接投资来源不是法国或德国，而是阿联酋。这打破了人们对于希腊的一些传统看法。首先，认为希腊是西方资本主义的附庸这种观念是错误的。其次，认为希腊因受到穆斯林移民的冲击而遭受重创的观点也是完全错误的。
OK. Could you think you could almost compare Greece as a country to some of the European border nations or border states that in that it's not necessarily porous, but it is a space of cultural connectivity. So there is a sway either side, depending on which part the east or the west kind of holds more financial power or even more military power. Would you think that would be an interesting or fair comparison to make that it is as a country potentially influenced by this, like a border would be?
你觉得你能把希腊这个国家比作某些欧洲边界国家吗？虽然希腊的边界不一定是开放的，但它是一个文化连接的场所。在某种程度上，无论是东部还是西部，哪一方在金融或军事上更具实力，都会对希腊造成影响。你认为这种比较是否有趣或合理？即希腊作为一个国家，可能会像边界一样受到这一点的影响？
Yeah, I think it's a very fair comparison. I mean, borders come up so much in my book. It's funny, because I travel a lot in the book. So about half the book takes place in Greece, but then the other half takes place in Egypt, in Israel, Palestinian territories, and in Turkey, basically all the countries where there are once historic Greek communities living in the wider Middle East.
是的，我觉得这是一个非常合理的比较。我的书中经常提到边界，因为在书中我旅行了很多。书中大约一半的内容发生在希腊，另一半则发生在埃及、以色列、巴勒斯坦地区和土耳其。基本上，故事涵盖了所有曾经有希腊历史社区的中东地区。
So this idea of borders and about boundaries and it came up with so many of the Greeks that I spoke with, especially in the wider Middle East, the historic Greek communities living there. I think the lesson that we take from Greece in terms of borders and this idea of a porous no exchange is the concept of the Mediterranean, not so much as a border, but as a connector. You know, it's funny to say, but the great British colonialists kind of knew in the 1900s, they called the Mediterranean, basically it was never the border of Europe.
关于边界和界限这个概念，我与许多希腊人讨论过，特别是那些生活在中东地区的历史悠久的希腊社区。我认为，从希腊在边界上的经验中，我们可以学习到的是，地中海的概念并不是作为一种边界，而是作为一种连接。虽然听起来有些讽刺，但早在20世纪初，伟大的英国殖民者就已经意识到，地中海从来不是欧洲的边界。
For them, the border of Europe was always the African desert, the Sahal. And they understood that the Mediterranean was really a connecting element for Greece to the coast of North Africa, to Lebanon, to Turkey. So I think we in the Western world have long associated the Mediterranean as kind of a hard stopping point in border for Greece and for Europe from the Muslim and the Arab world. But that's not the case, right? And I think we're seeing from migration, what we're seeing from rising powers in the region, like Turkey, like a revisionist Israel, like Gulf States, is that the Mediterranean kind of connects much more than it divides and that Greece is on the front lines of that.
对于他们来说，欧洲的边界一直是非洲的沙漠，即萨赫勒地区。他们理解地中海实际上是将希腊与北非海岸、黎巴嫩和土耳其连接在一起的纽带。所以，我认为在西方世界，我们一直将地中海视为希腊和欧洲与穆斯林和阿拉伯世界之间的一种严格的边界。然而，事实并非如此，对吧？从移民和地区崛起的国家，例如土耳其、立场转变的以色列以及海湾国家的发展中可以看出，地中海连接的作用远大于它的分隔作用，而希腊正处在这种交融的前沿。
There's a really interesting book, and it's medieval, it's focuses medieval history, which is my period, but it's by Robert Bartlett and it's called the Making of Europe. And it does actually talk about how borders actually helped to define how these nations considered themselves to be as European nations. And it was the kind of moving of the borders and the shifting cultures and the fusion of different cultures and how they connected in multiple different ways. And I think that's really interesting in how one might consider Greece. But obviously Greece is also, it's got its island culture.
有一本非常有趣的书，是关于中世纪历史的，这也是我所研究的领域。书的作者是罗伯特·巴特利特，书名叫做《欧洲的形成》。这本书实际上讨论了边界如何帮助定义这些国家作为欧洲国家的身份。它谈到了边界的变动、文化的转变，以及不同文化的融合和多重连接方式。我觉得这对理解希腊非常有趣。当然，希腊也有其独特的岛屿文化。
And I'm interested how the islands perhaps are distinct or perhaps very similar in relation to, are they becoming more influenced by the east today than they were before? I mean, how do the well-known islands around Greece fit into this? It's an interesting question. When you talk about Greece's island culture, I think it's very fascinating, because I almost think of them in three subsets. The first island that I think, especially about a British listener is with now is Kour Foul. It was made famous by Lawrence Deral. It's a very popular tourism spot.
我很好奇这些岛屿之间是如何不同或相似的，尤其是在它们今天受到东方影响是否比过去更大这个问题上。也就是说，希腊附近的那些著名岛屿如何融入这一现象？这是个很有趣的问题。当谈到希腊的岛屿文化时，我觉得非常迷人，因为我几乎可以将它们分为三个子类别。对一个英国听众来说，尤其会想到的第一个岛屿是科孚岛。因为劳伦斯·达雷尔让它出名，它是一个非常受欢迎的旅游胜地。
So Kour Foul is located in the Aonian Sea, and it's bordering, can Greece's western periphery and on the coast of Albania? And for me, I call Kour Foul. It's kind of like the most European island with Greece. And that is because, in fact, it was never conquered by the Ottoman Empire, which I think is really interesting. So I never went to prefer in the book. But I've been before, and I compare it to the city on the mainland, which is the largest city on the mainland next to it, which is Janina, which was conquered by the Ottoman Empire.
所以库尔弗尔岛位于阿奥尼亚海，靠近希腊的西部边缘，并且临近阿尔巴尼亚的海岸。对我来说，我称这个地方为库尔弗尔岛，它就像是最具欧洲风情的希腊岛屿。这是因为它实际上从未被奥斯曼帝国征服过，我觉得这非常有趣。我在书中没有详细描写这个地方，但我曾经去过，并将它与大陆上的城市比较，那是它附近大陆上最大的城市，叫做约阿尼纳，这个城市曾被奥斯曼帝国征服过。
And basically, I say that traveling from Janina, this city in Northeastern Greece, which was under Ottoman rule for 400 years, to Kour Foul, which was under British control, and then ceded to Greece in the mid 1800s, it's like traveling between two different countries, in a sense, because basically all of the westernizing tendencies that kind of you see in the architecture, in the food, even other way people carry themselves, and the way that they kind of, you know, they based themselves on human relations, you see a big difference between Janina, which was controlled by the Ottomans for 400 years, and Kour Foul, which kind of escaped the Ottoman control.
基本上，我说从贾尼纳（Janina）出发，这座位于希腊东北部的城市曾被奥斯曼帝国统治了400年，前往库尔弗尔（Kour Foul），这个曾经由英国控制并在19世纪中期归还给希腊的地方，就像是在两个不同国家之间旅行一样。从建筑风格到饮食习惯，甚至人们的举止和人际关系的基础都显示出巨大差异。贾尼纳在奥斯曼统治下待了400年，而库尔弗尔则避免了奥斯曼的影响，这种对西方化趋势的不同适应在这两个地方表现得非常明显。
I personally, I like Janina more, but that's my book. I think the other trend for the islands that you should consider is the big name ones, like Mecanosa, Santorini. And again, I see another Eastern instinct here from the Greeks, which is Dubaification. And I write about this in my book, which is that Greece's intent on extracting every scent it can out of western tourists, and eastern tourists for that matter. And the islands and the Catholic islands, the Catholic islands, like Mecanosa, and Pardos, and Santorini, have really just become hubs for what is a global tourism boom, right?
我个人更喜欢Janina，但那是我书中的观点。我认为你也应该考虑一些有名的岛屿，比如米科诺斯和圣托里尼。我在书中提到过，希腊展现出了东方的影响，类似于"迪拜化"的趋势。希腊的目标是尽可能多地从西方游客以及东方游客身上获取收益。而这些岛屿，特别是天主教岛屿，如米科诺斯、帕罗斯和圣托里尼，已经成为全球旅游业蓬勃发展的中心。
And it's price ordinary Greeks out. So you have a huge crisis on these islands, actually, where doctors and teachers, they can't afford to rent houses or apartments, and it's a catch 22 for Greece, right? Because they need the tourism flow, tourism dollars, but they're pricing out their locals from these islands. And there's a concern, right? That these islands are losing their culture and their traditions. Again, these islands were never really part of Greece.
普通希腊人负担不起这样的价格。因此，这些岛屿上实际上面临着巨大的危机，医生和教师们甚至无法负担房屋或公寓的租金。这对希腊来说是一个两难的困境，对吧？因为他们需要旅游业的资金流入，但同时却让当地居民难以承受这些岛屿的生活成本。而且有人担心，这些岛屿正在失去它们的文化和传统。此外，这些岛屿从来没有真正融入过希腊。
The last kind of island segment that I will look at are the Eastern and the G and islands. So heo's, roads, lesvos, which for me are the most Eastern. They share the rate on the coast of Turkey. Ironically, when Greece and Turkey were forming their borders around the time of the First World War, both the Greeks and the Turks argued that the islands like roads, heo's and lesvos, belong naturally to the Turkish mainland. Greece argued that because they wanted the Turkish mainland for itself, and Turkey argued that because Turkey wanted to cheap the islands, obviously, with the Turkish mainland.
我将要探讨的最后一种岛屿是东部和G型岛屿。像希俄斯岛、罗得岛和莱斯博斯岛，这些是我认为最东部的岛屿。它们紧邻土耳其海岸。讽刺的是，在一战期间希腊和土耳其划定边界时，双方都认为像罗得岛、希俄斯岛和莱斯博斯岛这样的岛屿自然属于土耳其大陆。希腊这样主张是因为他们想要占有土耳其大陆，而土耳其则认为这些岛屿理应与土耳其大陆相连，因此也主张拥有这些岛屿。
So I think that says a little bit about the culture, I think, and just geographically, where these islands are centered, right? They're much more part of the East than a part of the West. And again, in the book, one of the main islands that I discuss is heo's. My family house from an island, a very, very small island, next to heo's called the Nusas. And it was actually heo's that really got me thinking about the connections between Greece and the wider Middle East. There's a product from heo's called Mastic, and it's a resin. And it's almost unknown in the Western world in the UK and the US, unless you go to a Greek specialty shop. But it's a hugely popular product in the wider Middle East. It's basically, it's used to flavor things like ice cream and coffee, it's used in meat marinades. And it only comes from heo's.
我认为这可以稍微反映出一些关于文化和地理位置的情况。这些岛屿更属于东方，而不是西方。在书中，我主要讨论的岛屿之一是希俄斯岛。我家的旧房子在一个非常小的岛上，紧挨着希俄斯，叫作努萨斯。实际上，是希俄斯让我开始思考希腊和更广泛的中东地区之间的联系。希俄斯有一种叫做玛斯提赫的产品，是一种树脂。在英国和美国的西方世界中，这种产品几乎不为人所知，除非你去希腊的专卖店。但在更广泛的中东地区，它是非常受欢迎的产品。它通常用于给冰淇淋和咖啡调味，也用于肉类腌制。而这种树脂只能从希俄斯获取。
Anyway, when I first traveled to the Middle East, the last place in Greece I was, I was on heo's. And I thought I had left heo's behind at the time. This was six or seven years ago. And I said, okay, now I'm going to the Middle East. I'm gone with Greece. And I think the first week that I arrived in Jordan, a bunch of friends took me to taste ice cream, flavored with Mastic from the island of heo's. And what I say in the book is that people from the Middle East, actually, knew more about these Eastern Greek and Greek islands than people in the UK and the US. So I think that says something also about the connections between the Eastern and the GNI islands and the wider Eastern world. Sounds like a really trendy ice cream shop as well. It's really good, yeah. Yeah. Ha ha.
好吧，回忆起我第一次去中东旅行时，已经离开了希腊，最后待的地方是希俄斯岛。我以为当时已经告别了希俄斯，那是六七年前的事了。我心想，好了，现在我要去中东了，和希腊说再见。然而，我到约旦的第一个星期，朋友们就带我去品尝一种用希俄斯岛的乳香调味的冰淇淋。我在书中提到，中东的人们其实对希腊东部和希腊群岛了解得比英国和美国的人还多。这也说明了东部地区和希腊群岛与更广阔的东部世界之间的联系。听起来那家冰淇淋店也很时尚，而且味道非常好。哈哈。
So when you're talking about islands and the influence of the East and West on islands, the island that was coming to my mind so much in this was Cyprus. I mean, how could you use Cyprus as an example to talk about that push pull between Eastern Western culture and the relationship with Turkey? I mean, how does that do you think Cyprus is a good example to be able to investigate that? I think Cyprus is a good example. Admittedly, I left Cyprus out of my book and I left it out for a reason because I really, I didn't want to condense Greece's relates. So whole book in itself. Yeah, the whole book in itself, for sure. And I didn't want to condense Greece's relations to the wider Middle East through the Cyprus issue, right? Which is this issue that goes back to really the 1950s. When you had communal tensions between Greeks and Turks on the island.
所以，当你谈论岛屿以及东西方对岛屿的影响时，我脑海中一直浮现的岛屿就是塞浦路斯。我的意思是，你怎么能用塞浦路斯作为例子来讨论东西方文化的对抗以及与土耳其的关系呢？你认为塞浦路斯是一个用来研究这个主题的好例子吗？我认为塞浦路斯是个不错的例子。不过，我在我的书中没有提到塞浦路斯，这有其原因，因为我确实不想通过塞浦路斯问题来简单化希腊与中东地区更广泛的关系。这问题实际上可以写成一本完整的书。这个塞浦路斯问题可以追溯到20世纪50年代，当时岛上的希腊人和土耳其人之间存在着社区紧张关系。
But what I do say for Cyprus is that interestingly enough, is that the collapse of the parent collapse of a solution to the Cypriot conflict kind of really symbolized this turn of Turkey away from the West. And this is something that the Greeks of Istanbul who I met told me. So the Greek community of Istanbul today, it's about 2,000 people and it's really shrunk. It's facing really the threat of extinction. There are a whole over of the times when Istanbul was part of the Ottoman Empire and the city was roughly 30% Christian.
关于塞浦路斯，我要说的是有趣的是，塞浦路斯问题解决方案的失败实际上象征着土耳其的转向，不再亲西方。这是我在伊斯坦布尔遇到的希腊人告诉我的。现在，伊斯坦布尔的希腊社区只有大约2000人，人数大大减少，面临灭绝的威胁。曾几何时，伊斯坦布尔是奥斯曼帝国的一部分，城市中约有30%的人口是基督徒。
Anyway, one of the interesting things for me when I, when I was meeting with the community, is that they basically, they flag Cyprus to me and they said that the lack of a solution to Cyprus back in the mid 2000s, when Turkey was in negotiations to join the European Union, really kind of spelled this pivot for Turkey away from the West. And it convinced them to start thinking again about their place in the East. So Turkey was in talks to the European Union, but they needed to have a solution to the Cypriot problem, right? Because the northern half of Cyprus is occupied by Turkey illegally, which they invaded in 1974.
总之，我在与社区交流时发现一件有趣的事情，他们提到塞浦路斯问题，并指出早在2000年代中期，当时土耳其正在与欧盟进行入盟谈判时，未能解决塞浦路斯问题实际上让土耳其开始将注意力从西方转移开。这让他们重新思考自己在东方的位置。当时土耳其与欧盟在进行谈判，但必须解决塞浦路斯问题，因为塞浦路斯的北部地区自1974年以来一直被土耳其非法占领。
And Turkey would never be let into the European Union without a solution to the Cypriot issue because you can't occupy another country and be in the European Union. And unfortunately, the talks that with the U.N. response during at the time in the mid 2000s collapsed. And today you have this kind of, you know, hazy fog over Cyprus where the international and recognized government, which is majority Greek, is in the south, and there continues to be Turkish occupied half in the north, which Turkey is militarizing very heavily, and it's sent a lot of settlers actually to the north.
而在没有解决塞浦路斯问题的情况下，土耳其永远无法加入欧盟，因为一个国家不能占领另一个国家的领土后还加入欧盟。不幸的是，2000年代中期与联合国展开的谈判破裂。如今，塞浦路斯的局势犹如一片迷雾，国际上承认的由希腊裔为主体的政府位于南部，而北部仍然是土耳其所占领的部分，土耳其在北部进行了大规模的军事化，并且实际上向北部派遣了大量的定居者。
But for me, again, the way I approached the Cyprus issue in the book is looking at it as one of the pivot points in which we saw Turkey moving away from the West and kind of carving out the image for itself as an Eastern power in the wider Middle East. Is this what you mean when you describe Turkey as the revisionist? Yes, yes, it has to do with the Cyprus issue. And then of course, also with the Eastern and the G and Islands.
在书中，我是这样看待塞浦路斯问题的：把它视为一个关键点，这个关键点让我们看到土耳其逐渐远离西方，并在更广泛的中东地区为自己树立一个东方强国的形象。当你形容土耳其是修正主义者时，这是你所指的吗？是的，是的，这确实与塞浦路斯问题有关。当然，也与东地中海和一些岛屿有关。
So Greece and Turkey are locked in this really intense maritime dispute over their exclusive economic zones, which are basically the areas of the sea that each one can claim. And you know, the dispute was kind of, you know, it was kind of nerdy a few decades ago, but because there's the chance of seeing finding natural gas under the sea, it's become much more intense because there's money involved. And degreasing the Turks are, you know, they're kind of stuck in this quagmire where they're fighting over these maritime zones.
希腊和土耳其正陷入一场非常激烈的海洋争端中，争议的焦点主要是他们各自的专属经济区。专属经济区就是指各自可以声称拥有权利的海域。几年前，这个争端还显得有些学术化，不太为人关注，但随着在海底发现天然气的可能性存在，这一问题因涉及经济利益而变得更加激烈。希腊和土耳其因此都陷入了这种争夺海洋区域的泥潭之中。
And Turkey claims almost the entire swath of Eastern Mediterranean that Greece claims, including the sea around all of its Eastern and G and Islands. So that's part of the revisionism that I discussed in the book. Also the other aspect which I discussed in the book, which doesn't get a lot of attention in the West, is Turkish meddling in Greece, Greece's Northern borders. There's a Muslim minority community that lives in North Eastern Greece and Turkey through its consulate there and through kind of this shadow campaign is locked in kind of a shadow war with Greece over kind of influence over Northern borderlands.
土耳其声称几乎整个东地中海地区，包括希腊声称拥有的所有海域，甚至包括希腊众多东部和爱琴海诸岛周围的海域。这是我在书中讨论的修正主义的一部分。另外，我在书中还讨论了另一个在西方没有受到太多关注的方面：土耳其对希腊北部边界的干涉。在希腊东北部有一个穆斯林少数民族社区，土耳其通过在该地区的领事馆和一种影子活动，与希腊在北部边界地区展开了一场暗战，以争夺影响力。
I'm interested in thinking about the East and obviously this ongoing dispute between Greece and Turkey, there have been more serious wars and conflicts within the East. I mean, yes, it's this growing financial power, but there's also a lot of war and conflict that is going on all at the same time. I mean, how does that impact Greece? We talked earlier about migrants. Do you find that it has a significant impact on Greece because I always consider Greece to be a reasonably today, a reasonably peaceful nation?
我对东部地区很感兴趣，特别是希腊和土耳其之间的持续争端。当然，东部地区还发生过更严重的战争和冲突。尽管东部的经济实力不断增长，但与此同时，战争和冲突也很多。这对希腊有什么影响呢？我们之前谈到了移民的问题。你觉得这些冲突对希腊有重大影响吗？因为我一直认为希腊如今是一个相对和平的国家。
Yeah, it's very peaceful. I think the big conflict here obviously, it has been Israel's war on Gaza and the conflict in the Middle East. And actually, I discuss at length the relationship between Greece and Israel, which for me is one of the most fascinating trends in the region. In 2020, Israel signed the so-called Abraham Accords agreements which got a lot of fanfare. The Israelis normalized relations with three Muslim Arab countries, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Morocco.
是的，这里非常宁静。我认为这里最大的冲突显然是以色列对加沙的战争和中东的冲突。实际上，我详细讨论了希腊与以色列之间的关系，这对我来说是该地区最引人注目的趋势之一。2020年，以色列签署了被称为《亚伯拉罕协议》的协议，引起了很多关注。以色列与三个穆斯林阿拉伯国家——阿联酋、巴林和摩洛哥——实现了关系正常化。
Around the same time, Greece and Israel started to align much more closely in this partnership because both of them are alarmed over Erdogan's Turkey. And I say that that partnership between Greece and Turkey, it hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the Western press. It's almost been overshadowed by the Abraham Accords, but it's been really pivotal for the region. And it features quite heavily in my book. This idea of Greece kind of looking around the Middle East for partners to check Turkey.
大约在同一时间，希腊和以色列开始在这个伙伴关系中更紧密地合作，因为他们都对埃尔多安领导下的土耳其感到担忧。我认为希腊与土耳其之间的这种伙伴关系在西方媒体上并没有得到太多关注，几乎被《亚伯拉罕协议》所掩盖，但它对该地区确实具有重要意义。这种希腊在中东寻找合作伙伴以制衡土耳其的想法在我的书中占有重要篇幅。
And of course, the partner that the Greeks have chosen is Israel, which is interesting when you consider the historic ties that Greece has had with Israel and Palestine. Greece was actually one of the countries that was most hostile to Zionism, interestingly enough. And it took a very pro-Arab position after World War II in the late 1940s and the 1950s kind of opposing Israel.
当然，希腊人选择的合作伙伴是以色列，这就很有趣，尤其是当你考虑到希腊与以色列和巴勒斯坦的历史联系时。其实，希腊曾是对犹太复国主义最为敌视的国家之一。二战后，在20世纪40年代末至50年代，希腊采取了非常亲阿拉伯的立场，反对以色列。
And then into the 1990s and today, we've seen this total switch where Greece has moved very, very close with Israel. And their partners in the Eastern Mediterranean, their militaries drilled together, Greece have buying weapons from Israel. And all of this is really kind of centered around Greek and Israeli concerns about Turkish revisionism in Syria, in the Eastern Aegean, and in Libya.
从20世纪90年代到今天，我们看到希腊与以色列的关系发生了完全的转变，变得非常密切。作为东地中海的伙伴，他们的军队一起进行演习，希腊还向以色列购买武器。这一切实际上都围绕着希腊和以色列对土耳其在叙利亚、东爱琴海和利比亚修正主义的担忧。
How does that play out in cities like Athens? I mean, is that something that is accepted or is it the Greek government facing pushback with that? It's really interesting, actually. The level, an interesting act out, there was a complaint from some Israeli tourists, I think, about graffiti. You know, Athens is known for its graffiti. It's very famous for it. If anyone, if you've been, you'll know. It's almost on every wall.
在像雅典这样的城市，这种情况会如何发展呢？我的意思是，这是被接受的吗，还是希腊政府面临反对呢？实际上，这确实很有趣。一个有趣的事件是，一些以色列游客抱怨过涂鸦问题。众所周知，雅典以其涂鸦闻名。如果你去过那儿，你就会知道，几乎每面墙上都有涂鸦。
And there was a complaint from Israeli tourists, which kind of filtered down to the government, over kind of all of this graffiti that many Greeks had sprayed, kind of attacking the Israeli defense forces over the war in Gaza. And the mayor of Athens basically told Israel to kind of shut up, and he said that he's not going to erase the graffiti. So there is a real tension, I think, between Greeks who are opposed to Israel's war in Gaza, which is quite frankly the vast majority of Greeks. And the Greek government, which has formed this very, very close partnership with Israel, which I should note is on both the left and the right of Greek politics, interestingly enough.
以色列游客对希腊街头涂鸦表达了不满，认为这些涂鸦是在攻击以色列国防军与加沙的战争，这一意见被逐渐传达到政府层面。对此，雅典市长直言要以色列“闭嘴”，并表示不打算清除这些涂鸦。这反映出希腊民众与政府之间存在明显的紧张关系。大多数希腊人反对以色列在加沙的战争，而希腊政府则与以色列建立了非常紧密的合作关系，这种关系在希腊左翼和右翼政治中都存在，这点十分耐人寻味。
You know, the alliance between Greece and Israel started with Alexis Cipras, who was kind of the left-wing fire brand of Greek politics during the crisis years. And he was the one with US support who really forged this partnership with Benjamin Netanyahu because both were so concerned about Turkey. The government of Karyakos-Mizo Takis, which is the current center-right government in Greece, they've kind of, no, they've put the relationship much more forward, they send a defense deal, there's a lot more military exercises. But yes, the issue of where the Greek people on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and where the Greek government are vastly different, and it's a very interesting trend to watch.
你知道，希腊和以色列的联盟始于亚历克西斯·齐普拉斯的时期，他是在危机时期希腊政治中的左翼先锋。在美国的支持下，他与本雅明·内塔尼亚胡建立了这个伙伴关系，因为双方都非常关注土耳其。目前希腊的中右翼政府，由卡里亚科斯·米佐塔基斯领导，他们大力推动了这一关系，签署了国防协议，并进行了更多的军事演习。然而，希腊民众在以色列-巴勒斯坦冲突中的立场与希腊政府的立场有很大不同，这是一个值得关注的有趣趋势。
You know, in the book, I also spent quite a bit of time in Israel in occupied East Jerusalem, which I think is, again, one of the most fascinating aspects of all of this is that like in Istanbul, there was once a historic Greek community in Jerusalem, I mean, people forget this. So you had Greeks scattered across the wider Middle East in Cairo, in Jerusalem, in Istanbul. The Greek community in Jerusalem, today in numbers about 100 people, which is just the shell of its former self, before the creation of Israel, there were anywhere between 10,000 and 20,000 Greek-slavine in Jerusalem, which is a staggering number.
你知道的，在书中，我还曾在以色列被占领的东耶路撒冷呆过一段时间。我觉得这仍然是所有这些事情中最吸引人的方面之一。就像在伊斯坦布尔一样，耶路撒冷曾经也有一个历史悠久的希腊社区，但人们往往忘记了这一点。在整个中东地区，你可以在开罗、耶路撒冷、伊斯坦布尔等地发现希腊人的身影。如今，耶路撒冷的希腊社区人数只有大约100人，这与过去相比已经是一个空壳。在以色列建国之前，耶路撒冷大约有一万到两万名希腊人，数量惊人。
Yeah. And I say in the book really that Israel has been as intolerant to the Greeks as Turkey has been towards Christians and Egypt's Arab nationalist were towards Greeks, because the Greeks also got ran out of Egypt in the 1960s. There's this dispute between the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem and Israeli government over a host of issues like land and property sales, and the rise of the far-right settler movement, which it's a very big issue that is not being addressed on the Greek-Israeli relationship.
好的。在书中，我提到以色列对待希腊人的态度与土耳其对待基督徒和埃及的阿拉伯民族主义者对待希腊人的态度一样不宽容。在20世纪60年代，希腊人也被迫离开了埃及。在耶路撒冷，希腊东正教会与以色列政府之间存在着许多争议，比如土地和财产的出售问题，以及极右翼定居者运动的兴起。这些都是影响希腊和以色列关系的重要问题，但目前却没有得到解决。
Yeah, that relationship with Israel is sort of what you're saying is really just the tip of the iceberg to a much greater political issue between not only Israel and Greece, but Greece and Turkey and other Arab states as well. Yes, yes. What's interesting again for the Greeks, though, is that the historic role of Greece in Israel and Palestine, not a lot of people know this, but the main landhold, the second largest landhold there in Israel, is the Greek Orthodox Church. So they actually leased the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, its building.
是的，你说的以色列和希腊之间的关系其实只是更大政治问题的冰山一角，这不仅涉及以色列和希腊，还涉及希腊和土耳其以及其他阿拉伯国家之间的关系。不过，对希腊人来说，有趣的是，希腊在以色列和巴勒斯坦的历史角色并不为很多人所知。希腊东正教会是以色列的第二大土地持有者。他们实际上把以色列议会的建筑出租给了议会。
Yeah, so there's a lot of attention between Greece who are upset over attacks from far-right settler groups against church property and these kind of things, and the military alliance that we're seeing between Greece and Israel. You note that for around eight years, Greece was pulled in the direction of the West, but now it seems to be rejoining the East. Do you think this is going to leave the West in a difficult situation, or do you think that it's not going to have as much of an impact as one might think it would?
是的，所以目前有很多关注点在希腊身上，因为他们对极右翼定居者团体攻击教会财产等行为感到不满，同时我们也看到希腊与以色列之间的军事联盟。你注意到，大约八年来，希腊被西方吸引，但现在似乎又在转向东方。你认为这会让西方陷入困境吗？还是说，这可能不会像人们预想的那样产生那么大的影响？
I think the impact, it might not be what we assume. One of the things I say is that in the book, is that if you looked at Greece 15 years ago, between 2010 and 2015, there was a Western institution that looked very strong, NATO in the European Union, and there was Greece that looked very weak. There was a big debate where the Greece would crash out of the European Union, the government at the time, the government of Alexis Cipra, which was the left-wing government, was flirting with Russia, and you fast forward today, actually, and what you notice is that the Greeks are the stable ones, and the Western institutions are the ones that look pretty shaky, which I find very ironic.
我认为影响可能与我们的预期不同。在书中我提到，如果回顾15年前的希腊，也就是2010到2015年之间，曾有一个看似非常强大的西方机构——北约和欧盟，而当时的希腊却显得很弱。当时有一个关于希腊是否会退出欧盟的大辩论，时任政府是左翼的亚历克西斯·齐普拉斯政府，他们还在与俄罗斯接触。但是如果快进到今天，你会发现希腊反而变得稳定了，而那时看似强大的西方机构现在看起来却很不稳定，这让我觉得非常讽刺。
And I think it's very telling kind of for the world order that we're looking at. So I should note that the Greeks themselves, they're really clinging to the West in a certain sense, which I find fascinating because they have a revision of the Western institutions, and they're just Turkey on one side. They're adjacent to the lands that Russia is claiming as a sphere of influence, battering it Ukraine with this invasion, and kind of they see this chaos swirling around the Middle East. So they very much want the Western institutions to succeed.
我认为这很能说明我们所观察的世界秩序状态。我应该指出，希腊人本身在某种程度上非常依赖西方，这让我感到很有趣，因为他们对西方制度有了一些新的看法。他们的邻国土耳其就在一边，而俄罗斯则将他们毗邻的地区视为势力范围，并通过入侵乌克兰对其进行打击，同时中东也充满了混乱。因此，希腊非常希望西方体制能够成功。
Greece would be the last one to leave the European Union, and they would be the last ones to leave NATO if they were given a choice. They wouldn't do it. But those institutions look shaky, and that's why Greece has had to go and look for allies, and that's why they're looking for Israel as an ally against Turkey. Egypt, because they're concerned about migration, and they want the Egyptian government to kind of crack down on migrants crossing the Mediterranean. They need investments in the Western governments or cash traps, so they're looking to Saudi Arabia. They're looking to the United Arab Emirates.
希腊是最不会退出欧盟的国家，也是在有选择的情况下最不会离开北约的国家。他们不会这么做。不过，这些机构看起来不太稳定，这也是为什么希腊不得不去寻找盟友的原因。因此，他们正在寻求以色列作为对抗土耳其的盟友。此外，由于担心移民问题，他们希望埃及政府能够打击跨越地中海的移民。希腊也需要西方国家的投资，但由于这些国家资金短缺，所以他们将目光投向了沙特阿拉伯和阿拉伯联合酋长国。
One of the things I think when we talk about Greece and leaving the West, which is interesting, is that, and I said this in the book, as Greece deepens its relationships with the East, it's still trying to maintain a strong partnership with the United States and with NATO. And we've seen that the last two years, as Greece has really opened itself up to the US with military bases. So a lot of people don't notice, but a lot of the supplies that are going to Ukraine, in the war against Russia, are actually entering the country as the first destination through Greece to the port of Alexanderupoli, which is Greek port in northeastern borderlands.
关于希腊与西方关系以及可能脱离西方的话题，其中一个有趣的方面是，正如我在书中所提到的，虽然希腊在加强与东方国家的关系，但依然努力维持与美国和北约的强大伙伴关系。过去两年来，我们看到希腊向美国开放了多处军事基地，显示出这种努力。很多人可能没有注意到，在乌克兰与俄罗斯的战争中，很多运往乌克兰的补给物资实际上是首先通过希腊的亚历山德鲁波利港进入的，该港口位于希腊东北部边境地区。
You also have an American base in Souta Bay on the island of Crete, another very eastern island. So Greece very, very much wants the US here, and wants these western institutions here. The problem with the Greece tab is trying to keep them here. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, do you think this will be. This will be the state of play for Greece for a prolonged period of time? Or do you think it's going to begin to play a much larger role in global politics?
在克里特岛的苏达湾，你们也设有一个美国基地，这是一个非常东方的位置。因此，希腊非常希望美国以及这些西方机构的存在。问题在于，希腊要努力让他们一直留在这里。是的，是的。那么，你认为这种状况在希腊会持续很长一段时间吗？还是你认为希腊将在全球政治中扮演更重要的角色？
I think what we're going to see is that a lot of the flashpoints in global politics that we're seeing today, whether it be the rise of an independent Turkey, a revisionist independent Turkey, a revisionist Israel, a Middle East that is really walking on eggshells in terms of the wider conflict and the instability there, Greece is at the front lines of all of this. So Greece, I call it. It's a bellwather, really, right? And it's the first, as you were saying, right? It's kind of that first state that is going to be exposed to all the wild swings that I think we're going to see in a much more chaotic world. So it's the country to watch in the future.
我认为，我们将会看到很多当前全球政治的热点问题，比如崛起的独立土耳其、修正主义的独立土耳其、修正主义的以色列，以及在更广泛的冲突和不稳定中如履薄冰的中东。希腊在这些问题的最前线。因此，我称希腊为“风向标”。正如你所说的那样，它是第一个将面临我们将在这个更加混乱的世界中看到的各种剧烈变化的国家。所以，希腊是未来值得关注的国家。
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just really interesting to consider Greece on these terms. I mean, rather than necessarily a space that longs to Europe, but a space that is conflicted and is just being pulled in the opposite direction, almost returning back to its origins. I wonder if you could almost describe a sort of chart as to what the significance of Greece would have looked like if you were to almost map it out, taking a macro perspective.
是的，当然。我觉得从这些角度来看待希腊真的很有趣。我的意思是，与其说是一个向往欧洲的空间，不如说是一个充满矛盾的空间，几乎在朝着相反的方向拉扯，几乎回到了它的起源。我在想，如果从宏观的角度绘制一张图表，描述希腊的重要性，会是什么样子呢？
I think you could. I mean, look, if you really start with. If you start with the Greek revolution of 1821 when Greece kind of gained its independence from the Ottoman Empire, this state that Europe, Western Europe created, right? If we were saying, right, Greece was the first ethnic nation state to be fashioned out of Europe. So after Greece, they all came next, right? Bulgaria, you know, Germany. But it was. Greece was really the start of it. And Greece was really the start of this kind of quest within the Ottoman world for a nation state from the Arabs, from Bosnia, from Serbia, from all these countries that were once ruled by the Ottoman Empire, Greece was the first one to get the bug for it.
我觉得可以。我是说，你看，如果你真的从1821年的希腊革命开始讲起，当时希腊从奥斯曼帝国中获得独立，这个国家是由欧洲，尤其是西欧，创造出来的。我们可以说，希腊是欧洲第一个由民族构成的国家。在希腊之后，像保加利亚、德国等国家陆续兴起。但实际上，希腊是这一切的开端。希腊是第一个在奥斯曼帝国的世界中燃起对民族国家渴望的地方。在此之后，阿拉伯人、波斯尼亚、塞尔维亚等曾经被奥斯曼帝国统治的国家也纷纷开始寻求建立自己的民族国家，而希腊是第一个受到这种影响的。
For about 100 years, that was Greece's story, right? And it was how do we create this nation state backed by Western European powers out of the crumbling Ottoman Empire and the Greeks were always calling territory here in there where they could. World War II happens. Greece is occupied by the Nazis. It descends into a horrible civil war which the Greek author and the cause of the cause of the Nazis called the Fratricide. It pitted brother against brother. It was a horrible conflict. But Greece emerges from that civil war really as a bastion of US power projection into Europe and the wider Middle East.
大约100年来，这就是希腊的故事，对吧？那是一段试图在奥斯曼帝国崩溃后，由西欧列强扶持建立民族国家的时期，希腊人总是在各处争取他们能得到的领土。第二次世界大战爆发后，希腊被纳粹占领，随后陷入了一个被希腊作家称为“手足相残”的可怕内战，兄弟反目成仇。这是一场惨烈的冲突。然而，在内战结束后，希腊成为了美国在欧洲及更广阔的中东地区投射势力的据点。
You know, the Truman doctrine, which, you know, the US kind of declared when they said that they were going to, you know, defend against communism in that, you know, every American dollar would go to defend states, you know, against the communist menace. It really started in Greece, which is interesting. So Greece, I say, is the first country actually of American postwar intervention. Again, so you see the trend, right, from the first country that was a Western nation state. And then you see the first country of postwar American intervention against the communists.
你知道，杜鲁门主义是美国宣布的一项政策，他们声称要对抗共产主义,并且每一分钱的美国援助都会用来帮助那些抵抗共产主义威胁的国家。有趣的是，这一政策实际上始于希腊。因此，我认为希腊是美国战后干预的第一个国家。由此你可以看到这个趋势，从第一个国家作为一个西方民族国家开始，然后成为美国战后对抗共产主义干预的第一个国家。
And today, what you see is, is Greece that is rejoining the East in a sense because of this rise of new powers and all of these things. So I think there were kind of three big time frames on which Greece, Greece's history is spread out in the modern era.
今天，你会看到某种程度上的希腊正在重新加入东方的行列，这主要是由于新兴大国的崛起和一系列相关的变化。所以，我认为，在现代时期，希腊的历史大致可以分为三个重要的时间段。
And I think that's a brilliant note to end on. That was Sean Matthews author of The New By's Antines, The Rise of Greece and Return of the Near East, which is available now online or at a bookshop near you.
我认为这是一个很好的结尾。那位是肖恩·马修斯，他是《新拜占庭的诞生：希腊的崛起与近东的回归》一书的作者。现在你可以在网上或附近的书店找到这本书。
I've been Helen Carr and you have been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared.
我是海伦·卡尔，感谢您收听智识广场。谢谢您的参与和收听！
This episode was produced by Margaret of Alpato and it was edited by Mark Roberts. For add free episodes and full length recordings, you can become a member at intelligencesquared.com forward slash membership.
本集由阿尔帕托的玛格丽特制作，马克·罗伯茨负责编辑。要收听无广告的剧集和完整录音，您可以访问 intelligencesquared.com/membership 成为会员。
And to join us at future live events, head to intelligencesquared.com forward slash attend to see our full live events program. You've been listening to Intelligence Squared. Thanks for joining us.
加入我们的未来现场活动，请访问 intelligencesquared.com/attend 查看我们完整的现场活动计划。感谢收听智识平方。感谢您的参与。