The high-growth handbook: Molly Graham’s frameworks for leading through chaos, change, and scale
发布时间 2026-01-04 13:31:04 来源
Do you work with many very high performing founder CEOs, Zach, Cheryl, Sandberg, Larry, and Sergei, Google, Brett Taylor? Google, when I was there, felt like two PhD students' paradise. Facebook felt like 19-year-old hacker's dorm room. 80% of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder. Our job as operators or as leaders is to help articulate the culture that they're creating. When a lot of people think Molly Graham, a lot of people think of giving away your legos. You have to grow as fast as your company is growing if you really want to take advantage. Both learning to give away what you've gotten good at and move on to the next shiny pile of legos.
你是否与许多非常高绩效的创始人CEO合作过，比如扎克、雪莉·桑德伯格、拉里和谢尔盖（谷歌创始人）、布雷特·泰勒等？我在谷歌工作时，它就像两位博士生的天堂；而脸书则像一个19岁黑客的宿舍。公司的80%文化实际上是由创始人的个性决定的。作为运营者或领导者，我们的工作是帮助明确他们正在创建的文化。当很多人想起莫莉·格雷厄姆时，常常想到“分享你的乐高积木”。如果你真的想利用公司发展的优势，就必须与你的公司成长同样迅速。既要学会放手你擅长的东西，也要转向下一个令人心动的乐高积木堆。
Sarah called well. She told me that the framework that helped her most in her career is something that you call the J-curve versus stairs. So, Jamoth, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard. He said, the way a lot of people do careers, this is set of stairs. Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years. But that is boring. The much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs. You do fall, but then you climb out way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.
莎拉打来电话。她告诉我，在她职业生涯中对她帮助最大的方法，她称之为“J曲线”与“楼梯”的对比。当时，杰莫斯向我推荐这份工作时，实际上在白板上给我画了个图。他说，很多人对待职业的方式就像是一组楼梯，只要一步一步慢慢爬，就每隔两年升职一次。但是，这样太无聊了。更有趣的职业发展方式就像是跳下悬崖。虽然你会跌落，但之后你能爬得更高，远远超越楼梯能带你到达的高度。
Today, my guest is Molly Graham. Molly was an early employee at Google, also at Facebook, where she worked closely with Zach on building the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. She also worked with Brett Taylor on Scaling Quit, which she saw the Salesforce. She's also worked with hundreds of companies and founders helping them grow into the leaders that they want to become. Today, she leads Glue Club, which is a community for leaders operating and changing, growing environments who want to develop themselves as quickly as their companies.
今天，我的嘉宾是莫莉·格雷厄姆。莫莉曾是谷歌的早期员工，还在 Facebook 工作过，与扎克紧密合作过，共同建设了陈·扎克伯格基金会。她还与布雷特·泰勒合作过，推进了 Scaling Quit 项目，并在 Salesforce 展示了这一成果。她与数百家公司和创始人一起合作，帮助他们成长为他们想要成为的领导者。如今，她领导着 Glue Club，这是一个为在快速变化和成长环境中的领导者提供支持的社区，帮助他们像公司发展一样迅速提高自己。
Molly is maybe most known for her advice to give away your Legos, which we chat about, along with basically all of our favorite frameworks and mindsets and pieces of advice that she's developed and collected over time for leaders who are going through rapid scale and growth and are just struggling to keep up. I think of this episode as a high-growth handbook for leaders who are experiencing rapid scale. We cover the J-curves versus Stairs approach to career growth, the waterline model, in which you want to snorkel before you scuba.
Molly 最广为人知的建议之一可能是“把你的乐高送出去”。我们讨论了这个话题，以及她在长期收集和发展中，为那些经历快速扩张和增长、难以跟上的领导者准备的各种最喜欢的框架、思维方式和建议。我将这一期节目视为一个快速增长的领导者手册。我们探讨了在职业发展中采用 J 型曲线还是台阶式增长的方法，以及水线模型——在你潜水之前先浮潜。
Her six rules for creating goals and building alignment, rules of thumb for dealing with rapid scale and lots of change, the biggest lessons she's learned from Zach, and Sergey, and Larry, and Cheryl, and Brett Taylor, and so much more, Molly is incredible. And you will be a better leader after listening to this episode. A huge thank you to Eric Antenau, Ashley Murphy, and Sarah Caldwell for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation.
她制定目标和建立共识的六条准则、应对快速扩张和频繁变更的经验法则、以及她从扎克、谢尔盖、拉里、谢丽尔和布雷特·泰勒等人那里学到的最重要的经验，还有更多内容，莫莉真是太厉害了。听完这一期节目后，你会成为一个更出色的领导者。非常感谢Eric Antenau、Ashley Murphy和Sarah Caldwell提出的主题和问题建议。
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如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您喜欢的播客应用或 YouTube 上订阅和关注，这对我们帮助很大。而且，如果您成为我通讯的年订阅者，您将免费获得 19 个惊人的产品，整整一年，包括：lovable、replete、bold、gamma、NADN、linear、dev 和 post-talk、superhuman、D-Script、whisper flow、perplexity、warp、granola、magic patterns、break-ass、chapyard、demobbin 和 stripe atlas。请访问 liniesnewsletter.com，点击 product pass。
With that, I bring you Molly Graham after a short word from our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform, designed by leading researchers, to thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift.
现在，我将为您介绍莫莉·格雷厄姆，但在此之前，请先收听来自我们赞助商的短消息。今天的节目由DX赞助，这是一个由顶尖研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。为了在人工智能时代取得成功，各组织需要快速适应。但是，许多组织的管理者在面对诸如"哪些工具有效？如何使用这些工具？是什么真正创造了价值？"等紧迫问题时感到困难。DX为管理者提供必要的数据和洞察力，帮助他们驾驭这一转变。
With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, Adian, and Intercom, get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny. That's getdx.com slash Lenny. If you're a founder, the hardest part of starting a company isn't having the idea. It's scaling the business without getting buried in back office work. That's where Brex comes in.
通过 DX，像 Dropbox、booking.com、Adian 和 Intercom 这样的公司能够深入了解人工智能如何为他们的开发人员提供价值，以及人工智能对工程生产力产生了什么影响。想了解更多信息，请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/Lenny，也就是 getdx.com 斜杠 Lenny。如果您是一位创始人，创办公司的最难部分不是拥有创意，而是在不被繁琐的后台工作淹没的情况下扩展业务，而这正是 Brex 的用武之地。
Brex is the intelligent finance platform for founders. With Brex, you get High Limit Corporate Cards, Easy Banking, High Yield Treasury, plus a team of AI agents that handle manual finance tasks for you. They'll do all the stuff that you don't want to do, like file your expenses, scour transactions for waste, and run reports all according to your rules. With Brex's AI agents, you can move faster while staying in full control. One in three startups in the United States already runs on Brex. You can too at brex.com.
Brex是一个专为创业者设计的智能金融平台。通过Brex，你可以获得高额度的企业信用卡、便捷的银行服务、高收益的国库管理，以及一个由AI代理组成的团队来为你处理繁琐的财务任务。它们会帮你完成那些你不想做的事情，比如整理开支、检查交易中的浪费以及根据你的规则生成报告。有了Brex的AI代理，你可以更快地行动，同时保持完全掌控。在美国，每三家初创企业中就有一家使用Brex。你也可以在brex.com上加入。
Molly, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thanks Lenny, I'm excited to be here. I feel like this conversation was in inevitability. I feel like you're the kind of guest where it's like, we will do this someday. I'm such a fan of your stuff. I've read all the stuff you've put out there over the years. We're going to be talking about the best frameworks and mindsets that you've developed over the years that have been really helpful to you, to founders, to companies that you've worked with, to help them with growth and scale and change and all the stuff that comes with success. The way I think about this, I want to make this the greatest hits of Molly Graham. Love it. And so I sourced what I think are the greatest hits from a lot of colleagues that you've worked with. A lot of people you've worked with. We've jetted about the stuff that you find. Other people find most helpful. So we're going to be going through all that stuff.
Molly，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎加入我们的播客。谢谢你，Lenny，我很高兴能来这儿。我觉得我们这个对话是迟早要进行的。我觉得你这样的嘉宾，我们总有一天会邀请来。我非常喜欢你的作品。这些年来我读了你发布的所有东西。我们将讨论你在这些年中发展出的最佳框架和思维方式，这些对你自己、创业者、你合作过的公司都非常有帮助，帮助他们实现增长、扩展以及面对成功带来的各种变化。在我看来，我想把这次对话做成Molly Graham的“最佳合集”。太棒了。所以我从与你共事过的许多同事那里搜集了他们认为的“最佳合集”。很多与你合作过的人都谈到了你所发现的，其他人觉得最有帮助的内容。我们将一起探讨这些内容。
But let's help people understand why they need, why they should listen to this advice. What's kind of the backstory on these frameworks? Where did they come from? Where did you develop them? Tell us that story. So first of all, Ami Vora, who you have had on your podcast, once said to me that all advice is just someone telling you what they did. And I always think about that because I really think that basically what I tell people is I've made every single mistake in the book. And then I got to the end of the book, and I started inventing new mistakes. So mostly what I feel is that I like sharing my stories because I want to help people. I want to help people not make the same mistakes I did. And I also want to help people make sense of what they're experiencing.
让我们帮助人们理解为什么他们需要听从这个建议。这个体系背后有什么故事？它们是从哪里来的？你是如何发展出这些体系的？请给我们讲讲这个过程。首先，Ami Vora曾经在你的播客中提到，所有的建议其实就是别人告诉你他们的经历。我一直记得这句话，因为我确实觉得我告诉别人的大部分内容都是我曾经犯过的每一个错误。后来，我开始犯新的错误。我喜欢分享我的故事，因为我想帮助人们，我希望他们不要重蹈我的覆辙。我也想帮助他们理解自己正在经历的事情。
But I started in tech in 2007. I actually started at Google the week, the iPhone launched. And a lot of my scaling battle scars come from a couple of experiences. They come from a year and a half at Google, which is not very long. And Google was pretty big when I was there as thousands of employees. But my department, which was the communications department, was 25 people when I joined. And it grew in nine months to 125 people. And that was really my first experience with just all the sort of things that I still talk about today in terms of what it feels like to grow really, really fast. And all the tools that I started developing from there. After Google, I left and followed Sheryl Sandberg and Elliot Shragg to Facebook.
2007年我开始进入科技行业。实际上，我是在iPhone发布的那一周加入谷歌的。我的许多关于规模扩展的经验教训来自于几段经历。其中之一就是我在谷歌工作了一年半，尽管时间不长。当时谷歌已经是个相当大的公司，拥有成千上万的员工。然而，我所在的通讯部门在我加入时只有25人，但在9个月内就增长到了125人。这让我初次体验到快速扩张带来的种种感受，以及开始开发的一些工具。离开谷歌后，我跟随谢丽尔·桑德伯格和艾略特·施拉格去了Facebook。
And I spent five years at Facebook. And I joined Facebook in 2008. And it's important context because it was 8 million users at the time. We were smaller than my space. It was 270 million in revenue, 500 employees. Did not feel inevitable. Most people thought we were going to sell to Microsoft when I told people I was going there. And they were like, it's not a place just like a site for college kids. And so I was there for five years. And it was a crazy five years. And I left. It was 5,500 employees, 5 billion in revenue over a billion users. So a huge amount of what I experienced, what I write about, what I talk about in Glue Club, which is the community that I run comes from that rapid scale, like Google and Facebook.
我在脸书工作了五年。我是在2008年加入脸书的。这段经历很有意义，因为当时脸书只有800万用户，规模比MySpace还小。收入为2.7亿美元，员工有500人。当时脸书并不被认为是成功的必然，大多数人认为我们会被微软收购。我告诉别人我要去脸书时，他们都觉得那只不过是个给大学生用的网站。我在那里待了五年，这五年真的非常疯狂。我离开时，公司已有5500名员工，收入达到50亿美元，用户超过10亿。我所经历的这些快速增长过程，以及在我现在运营的社区Glue Club中写到、谈到的内容，大部分都源于脸书与谷歌这样的公司经历的快速扩张。
But I also, I left Facebook right after we went public about six months after we went public. And I only like doing jobs that I'm highly unqualified for. I like being on learning curves so steep that I'm scared I'm going to fall off. And so I left. And I wanted to learn what it took to build something from nothing. And so I joined this little startup founded by Brett Taylor, a startup called Quip. I joined a couple of months before we launched and ran everything that wasn't product and engineering there for him.
但是，我也在 Facebook 上市后大约六个月就离开了。我只喜欢做那些我明显不合格的工作。我喜欢那种陡峭的学习曲线，感觉随时可能会掉下来。所以我选择了离开。我想学习从零开始创建一些东西需要什么。因此，我加入了由布雷特·泰勒（Brett Taylor）创办的小型创业公司 Quip。我是在我们发布产品前几个月加入的，并负责除产品和工程之外的所有事务。
And that was such a valuable experience to me because the experience of building something from nothing is actually quite different than the experience of holding on for your life while things are scaling so fast around you. And it really taught me about all the tools and skills you need to go from 0 to 1 and then from 1 to 2. And how lonely it can be to build something. And we eventually sold that company to Salesforce. And then again, only take jobs I'm highly unqualified for. But the last really chaotic scaling experience I had was actually helping Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan start their philanthropy, the Chan Zuckerberg initiative.
这对我来说是一次非常宝贵的经历，因为从无到有地创建某样东西的体验，与在周围事物快速发展时拼命坚持是截然不同的。这让我真正了解了从0到1，再从1到2所需的各种工具和技能，以及独自创造事物时的孤独感。我们最终将那家公司卖给了Salesforce。我只接那些我明显不具备资格的工作。而我最后一次经历非常混乱的快速扩张，实际上是帮助马克·扎克伯格和普莉希拉·陈创办他们的慈善机构——陈·扎克伯格计划。
And I basically helped them for the first two years of its existence or its sort of like first full existence. And it's that philanthropy sounds calm. You know what I mean? We're like, oh, giving money away must be so peaceful over there. And CZI grew from, I think the week I joined, it was 30 people and we like bought two companies that week and I grew to 250 people that year.
我基本上帮助他们度过了最初的两年或者说是它建立初期的两年。慈善事业听起来很平和，你懂我的意思吗？我们会觉得，哇，把钱捐出去肯定很轻松。然而，当我加入时，CZI有大约30人。那一周我们收购了两家公司，并且在那一年中团队迅速扩大到250人。
And it was like using every single tool in my toolkit that I had taken from every other job that I'd had. So my advice and frameworks, like I said, come from having made a lot of mistakes. But I've also sort of made a personal study over the last 18 years, believe it or not. Essentially like what does it take to thrive inside growing and changing companies, not just to hang on for dear life? You know, what does it take to lead in the face of constant change?
这感觉就像是我在以前的每一个工作中积累的所有工具都用上了。正如我之前所说，我的建议和框架源自于我曾经犯下的许多错误。但其实在过去的18年里，我个人也在进行一种研究，可能你不太相信。主要是研究在不断发展变化的公司中，究竟需要什么才能不仅仅是勉强维持，而是能够蓬勃发展。你知道的，在不断变化的情况下，领导力需要达到什么样的标准。
And really like the other piece that I find truly fascinating is what genuinely makes the difference between something that a business that grows but then plateaus versus these generational businesses, the ones that go on forever, sort of the difference between a Twitter or Myspace and a Facebook, billions in revenue versus hundreds of billions in revenue.
我真正感兴趣的另一个方面是：到底是什么决定了一个企业的发展命运？有些企业发展到一定阶段就停滞不前，而有些却能成为跨越几代人的企业，永续经营。这就像比较Twitter或Myspace与Facebook之间的差异，前者可能达到数十亿元的收入，而后者则能达到数千亿元的收入。
So what I like to do is take my experience and use it to help other leaders. I wanna give people tools that work and I also wanna be honest about how hard all of this stuff really is. Amazing. I say this a lot in this podcast. I just love the ROI that listeners of the podcast get. You spend 20 years toiling, struggling, working so hard, learning so much. And you're just here. Here's all the answers that I've learned.
我喜欢做的事情是利用我的经验来帮助其他领导者。我想要提供实用的工具，同时也想坦诚地说明这些工作有多么艰难。太棒了。我在这个播客中经常提到这一点。我非常欣赏播客听众能够获得的回报。你花费了20年的时间努力奋斗、拼搏、学习，然后在这里分享我学到的所有答案。
And obviously not all the answers, but so many things that will help people avoid the pain and suffering that you've gone through. That's the goal. Also a couple quick threads. I wanna follow here. One is Amivora who you mentioned. She's now, I think, had a product that didn't drop it. Yes. Amazing. Former podcast guest also speaker at the Lenin Friend Summit last two years ago.
很明显，这里并不是所有问题的答案，但其中有很多东西能够帮助人们避免你所经历的痛苦和磨难。这就是我们的目标。另外，我还想快速提到几个线索。其一是你提到的Amivora。我想她现在有一个产品没有被放弃。是的，这很棒。她曾经是我们的播客嘉宾，也在两年前的Lenin Friend峰会上担任过演讲者。
This other point you just made about how you've always gone to places that have been way beyond kind of your, forget how you phrased it, but just like, with beyond your current capabilities almost. And like, we're very difficult. I just had Matt McGinnis on the podcast. He was CEO at Ripley, now CP out Ripley. And he was just, I just recorded an episode with him.
你刚才提到的另一个观点是关于你总是去一些远远超出你当前能力范围的地方，我忘了你是怎么表达的，但就是那种几乎超出你当前能力的地方。而且那些地方非常具有挑战性。我刚刚请Matt McGinnis来录制了一期播客。他以前是Ripley的CEO，现在是Ripley的CP。我们刚刚录了一期节目。
And he had this really powerful quote that if you're ever comfortable at work and feel like, oh, I got this, you're making a huge mistake. Something's going terribly wrong. Gap, that's not where you wanna be. Yeah, I always say I get bored really easily, which is both a strength and probably my greatest weakness. So I like being scared.
他说了一句非常有力量的话：如果你在工作中感到很舒服，觉得自己已经掌控全局了，那你就犯了一个大错，一定有什么地方出了问题。停滞不前绝对不是你想要的状态。我常说我很容易感到无聊，这既是我的长处，也是我最大的弱点。因此，我喜欢那种令人害怕的挑战。
Okay, so let's actually dive into some of your greatest hits of Frameworks and the greatest of all grades when a lot of people think Molly Graham, a lot of people think of giving away your Legos. Some people haven't heard of this, many people have. So let's cover this. What is this advice of giving away your Legos?
好的，那么让我们深入探讨一下你最著名的一些框架，特别是被很多人认为是经典中的经典的概念——当许多人想到莫莉·格雷厄姆时，都会想到“分享你的乐高”这个理念。有些人可能没听过这个，但也有很多人已经了解了。所以让我们来谈谈这个。什么是“分享你的乐高”这个建议呢？
So this definitely started in my experience at Google. And then Facebook was like masterclass in giving away the Legos. But the way I like to talk about it is basically when I watch leaders and employees go through rapid scale, I like to think of somebody putting down a giant pile of Legos in front of a bunch of kindergartners and then just being like build something.
在我谷歌的经历中，这种情况肯定已经开始了。而在 Facebook，这一过程就像是观摩了一场关于“释放创造力”的大师课。我喜欢用这样一种比喻来形容：当我看到领导者和员工经历快速扩张时，我就想象有人在一群幼儿园小朋友面前放下一大堆乐高块，然后说，"去搭建点什么吧。"
And that's sort of what it feels like when you start. It's like, well, there's so many Legos and it's so fun. There's a lot of opportunity, but it's also kind of scary and overwhelming and you're like, there's so many Legos. What do I do? Is there an instruction manual hidden under this pile somewhere?
这就有点像你刚开始的时候的感觉。就好比，有这么多乐高积木，特别有趣，也有很多机会，但同时也有点吓人和让人不知所措。你会想，这么多乐高，我该怎么办？有没有说明书藏在这堆积木底下呢？
And then you start building and you're like, oh, okay, you build something and then you take it apart and then you put it back together and then eventually you started to get momentum and you're like, okay, I'm building a house. I got this, it's a house, great. And then you're like, I'm good at building houses.
然后你开始动手建造，你会觉得，哦，好吧，你建造了一些东西，然后又把它拆掉，再重新组装起来。渐渐地，你开始积累起了动力，觉得，好的，我在建一座房子。我明白了，这是一座房子，很棒。然后你意识到，自己擅长建房子。
I was put on earth to build houses and almost like assuredly inside of scaling companies as soon as you're like, I feel good at this and I like, I should do this forever. Somebody's gonna show up and be like, be like, okay, it's not a house, it's a neighborhood. And you need to take this house that's kind of half built and you're gonna pass it off to this other person that we just hired and you are going to go build dog parks and streets and other things that are entirely unhouse like.
我来到这个世界是为了建造房屋，特别是在快速发展的公司中。一旦感觉自己在这方面做得不错，并且觉得应该一直做下去时，就会有人出现，对你说：“这不只是建一栋房子，而是要规划一个社区。你需要把这栋建到一半的房子交给我们刚聘请的另一个人去完成，而你接下来要做的是去建造狗公园、街道以及其他一些完全不像房子的东西。”
And what happens when someone does that to you is you're like, wait a minute, first of all, I'm not done with this house and I'm worried that this person's gonna screw it up. I'm also worried that building houses is actually the most fun thing and that I'm gonna give the Lego to that person and they're gonna have all the fun work and I'm gonna hate building dog parks or the dog parks are relevant eventually and it's gonna turn out we're in the house building business.
当有人对你这样做时，你会感到困惑，首先，我还没有完成这个房子，我担心那个人会搞砸。我也担心建房子是最有趣的事情，而我把乐高给了那个人，他们会享受到所有的乐趣工作，我却不喜欢建狗公园，或者到头来发现狗公园根本不重要，而我们其实是在房屋建筑行业。
So you're just like, there's this incredible set of emotions that come territorialistic, paired with excitement, fear paired with joy. But eventually you pass the house off and then you go work on neighborhoods and you're sort of like, okay, dog parks, I'm gonna dog parks, I got this. And then again, you get to the lake, I'm great. I was put on earth to build neighborhoods and immediately someone shows up and says it's not a neighborhood. It's a country or a city or a world or and it just goes on and on and on.
所以，你会感到一种难以置信的情绪组合，一方面有领地意识，另一方面又有兴奋感，还有恐惧和喜悦的交织。但最终你会把房子建好，然后开始着手规划社区，你会觉得，"好吧，宠物公园，我可以搞定这些。" 接着你来到湖边，感觉自己做得不错，仿佛自己生来就是为了建设社区的。但这时候，突然有人出现，告诉你这不是一个社区，而是一个国家、一座城市，甚至是一个更大的世界，如此循环往复，一直延续下去。
And for me, the learning this muscle of both learning to give away what you've gotten good at and move on to the next shiny pile of Legos and learning that the emotions associated with that are inevitable, right? Like there's no, I've been doing this for 18, 20 years. Like I still get attacked by these emotions all the time but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't give them away and move on to the next thing. That is both the torment of scaling companies which is that the ground is moving under your feet and as soon as you're comfortable someone will make sure that you are uncomfortable but it's also the opportunity which is that you can go from being someone that's good at building houses to someone that knows how to build entire worlds.
对我来说，学习如何将自己擅长的事情放手并转向下一个吸引人的的事情，并意识到与此相关的情感是不可避免的。这就像是已经做了18、20年，我仍然经常被这些情绪困扰，但这并不意味着你不应该放下过去，转而迎接新事物。这就是扩展业务时的挑战：脚下的环境在不断变化，你刚感到舒适，就会有人让你感到不安。但这也是一种机遇，你可以从擅长建造房屋的人，成长为能创造整个世界的人。
And that is where the Legos metaphor came from. That is such a good metaphor. And like if you've gone through this you so understand what this is like and what. And also just the Legos metaphor is so good for the different things you build. And I have a very weird brain that for some odd reason just always thinks in metaphors. So it showed up when I was at Facebook in particular I would find that like every so often I would have to have what I called a Legos talk with someone where I would just see them start to ask these questions like why are we hiring that person or like what does that teeny do?
这就是“乐高积木”这个比喻的来源。这是个非常好的比喻。如果你经历过这种情况，你一定会非常理解这种感觉。乐高积木的比喻非常适合描述你构建的各种事物。而且，我有一个非常奇怪的大脑，总是不由自主地用比喻思考。因此，特别是在我在Facebook工作的时候，我常常会进行我称之为“乐高对话”的交流。我会注意到有人开始提出这样的问题，比如“我们为什么要雇用那个人？”或者“那个小团队是做什么的？”
And I was like okay we need to have the chat about the Legos and then eventually it turned into an article and a whole thing. A whole thing. And just to be clear the advice is give away your Legos this is actually the path to a successful career. I have watched a lot of people over many years struggle with feeling like they should hang on to the thing that they've been good at. And it almost always because essentially the nature of a scaling company is that the Lego pile is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
我当时就想，我们需要聊聊关于乐高的事，然后最终这个话题变成了一篇文章，甚至引发了更大的讨论。事情变得相当有趣。明确地说，建议是把你的乐高送出去，这实际上是一条通往成功职业的道路。多年来，我看到很多人在感情上挣扎，因为他们觉得应该坚持做自己擅长的事情。而这几乎总是因为随着公司的扩大，乐高积木堆会越来越大。
However fast that graph is going up into the right. I always say that's the graph of how fast your business is growing it's the graph of how fast your company is expanding and it's the graph of how fast your job is getting bigger. That means that if you actually just stay and build houses eventually you're literally buried under a pile of Legos. Do you know what I mean? You held on to something that's down here and the opportunity is actually to stay on top of that pile and to learn to just give away your job every.
无论那张图表上升得有多快，我总是说，那就是你业务增长的速度图，也是你公司扩张的速度图，同时也是你工作复杂度增加的速度图。这意味着如果你只是原地踏步地盖房子，最终就会被埋在一堆乐高积木下面。你懂我的意思吗？你紧紧抓住了某个低层次的东西，而实际上机会在于站在那堆积木的顶端，不断学习，学会把你的工作逐渐交给他人。
So often at Facebook I got to a place where I was literally giving away my job every three weeks. I was constantly rehiring myself essentially because you have to sort of grow as fast as your company as growing if you really want to take advantage of the opportunity that comes with companies that are growing and changing quickly. So people are hearing this they're like, okay, like my rational brain's like, I should give away my Legos, it'll help me, it'll be good for my career.
在 Facebook 工作期间，我常常处于一个状态：几乎每三周就要把自己的工作交出去。我经常需要以这种方式不断"重新聘用"自己，因为如果你真的想要利用那些快速发展和变化的公司的机遇，你就必须以与公司同样快的速度成长。所以，当人们听到这些时，他们会想，好吧，从理智上讲，我应该把"积木"（比喻工作任务）交出去，这会对我有帮助，对我的职业生涯也有好处。
In real life it's very hard to actually do to like give away this empire that you've built, this team that you've built, this project that you're like, I was going to be my think, I know you have a really fun useful tool to help people deal with that kind of irrational part of their brain, talk about that. So like I said, my brain works in weird metaphors, it's weird brain. I was raised on the map, it's an I like to think that this one came from, I guess, growing up watching weird animals.
在现实生活中，要真正做到放弃你建立的帝国、团队或项目是非常困难的。就是说，我原本以为这些都会成为我的东西。不过，我知道你有一个非常有趣且实用的工具，可以帮助人们应对大脑中非理性的部分，谈谈这个工具吧。正如我所说，我的大脑常常用奇怪的比喻来思考，它的运转方式也很奇特。我是在地图上成长的，我想，也许这种思维方式是源于我小时候经常看一些奇怪的动物节目。
But basically at some point I realized that this emotional roller coaster that comes with scaling, with growing, with going through change, any kind of change, people feel that was never gonna go away. And that no matter how good I got to, sometimes I think it gets worse, the more senior you get actually, because you sort of feel like you're supposed to know what you're doing and then you just get attacked by this monster that's like, who even gave you this job in the first place?
基本上，有段时间我意识到，与扩展、成长和经历变化相关的情感过山车是无法避免的。无论是什么样的变化，人们都会感受到这种情绪波动，而且随着职位越高，有时候感觉情况更糟糕，因为你会觉得自己该明白自己在做什么，但同时内心深处会有一个声音质疑你：到底是谁给了你这份工作的资格？
So basically I externalized all these emotions that come with change into this little tiny monster. I named my monster Bob. Your monster can be named whatever you want him to be named or her or them. And Bob is, you know, Bob's job, I like to think his job is basically to make the worst version of myself. He's the one that's like, you know, oh, that person took all the fun Legos and you should go push them over and grab them back.
所以，基本上我把所有伴随变化而来的情绪外化成了一个小怪物。我给这个怪物起名为鲍勃。你的怪物可以有任何你想给他的名字。鲍勃的职责，我觉得就是让自己变成最糟糕的版本。他总是会说，比如说，"哦，那个人拿走了所有好玩的乐高，你应该把他们推倒，再把乐高抢回来。"
Bob's job is, you know, Bob's the one that wants to send the rage email to the 9 p.m. and, you know, burn the house down. And the thing to learn about Bob is that, like I said, Bob never goes away. Bob is not, Bob is someone that you have to learn to deal with. But Bob's job is to make you the worst version of yourself. So your job is to let Bob do his thing but not act on the emotions. Like basically all these emotions are normal and they are not useful. They are not the compass that should be telling you what to do.
鲍勃的工作是这样的，他就是那种想要在晚上9点发怒火邮件，大闹一场的人。需要明白的是，鲍勃这种人是不会消失的，你得学会应对他。而鲍勃的工作就是让你成为自己最糟糕的一面。所以你的任务是让鲍勃发泄，但不要让这些情绪影响你的行动。事实上，这些情绪是正常的，但没有用处，它们不应该成为指导你行动的指南针。
But the other rule I have for managing Bob is, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, you're feeling pissed off or tired or whatever. Like go to bed and wake up tomorrow morning and you'll feel better. And the truth is that like, you know, you like, I want to send the rage email to 9 p.m. like you still want to send it at 8 a.m. And a lot of these emotions just like do not go away in 24 hours.
我管理Bob的另一个规则是，很多人会这样说：“哦，你感到生气或者累了，不如去睡一觉，明天早上醒来就会觉得好些。”但事实是，即使晚上9点你想发一封带着怒气的邮件，到了早上8点你可能还是想发的。很多这样的情绪在24小时内是不会消失的。
So my rule of thumb from Facebook was give it two weeks. And, you know, the emotional, the sort of Bob is like these waves and they just roll through. So, you know, you made a new hire or somebody came in or you got layered or whatever. You'll have a set of reactions. And those reactions, again, they're normal but they're not useful. They're not the ones that you should listen to. Here Bob. And typically they go away in a couple days. You get something new, you know, some new wave. But anything that lasts longer than two weeks is actually something you should pay attention to.
在Facebook工作时，我的经验法则是给事情两周时间。情绪就像波浪一样，会不断起伏。比如说，你新招了一个员工，或者有人加入公司，或者你被安排在某个层级下工作，你会有一系列反应。这些反应很正常，但通常没有帮助，也不是你应该听从的意见。通常情况下，这些情绪波动在几天后就会消失，转而出现新的波动。但如果某种情绪持续超过两周，那就值得你注意了。
It's something that, you know, if it's been around for two weeks, it's something you should go talk to someone about, whether it's a manager or a friend or a coach or someone like that, that's the real stuff. Everything else is just Bob. Is there a rule of thumb for when it actually, when you shouldn't give away your legos, when it's like, okay, maybe you should fight back on this layering or, you know, whatever. No rule of thumb.
这是一件事情，如果它已经持续了两个星期，那么你应该找人谈谈，无论是经理、朋友还是教练等，这才是真正重要的东西。其他的都只是次要的。不知道有没有什么经验法则，告诉你什么时候不该放弃自己的东西，比如说是否该反击层层加码之类的。没有固定的经验法则。
In general, I would actually say embracing change is far better than fighting it. And almost invariably, you cannot see what is around the corner, you know. But it is almost always the thing to focus on. Like a lot of times I think inside of change, we get focused on the past. And one of the most valuable things you can do as a manager and a leader is help people focus on the future.
总体来说，我认为接受变化远比抗拒变化要好得多。几乎不可避免地，我们无法预见未来会发生什么。但是，专注于变化往往是明智之举。很多时候，在变化中我们容易把注意力放在过去。而作为一名管理者和领导者，最有价值的事情之一就是帮助人们把目光投向未来。
I think I'm sure there are times when people have done it and regretted it and it has led them somewhere, you know, I think being layered, for example, you know, is one of the hardest things for people inside these experiences where someone brings in a manager above you. And I've also seen so many stories of that ending up being a great thing for someone, even though they couldn't see it at the time. So in general, I would just say step into the future and let the past go and see what you're gonna learn.
我认为肯定有人经历过这样的情况，他们做了一些决定后感到后悔，但这些经历也引导他们走到了某个地方。比如说，被安排了层级管理可能是一个很艰难的经历，当有人被安排到你之上当你的经理时，这对于经历过这种情况的人来说是很难受的。然而，我也见过很多这样的故事，最终事情的发展对当事人来说反而变成了好事，尽管他们当时看不到这一点。总的来说，我建议大家向前看，放下过去，看看你能学到些什么。
And sometimes you'll learn that, you know, it's time to leave or that it's not, this isn't the right pile of legos for you, but it'll end up taking you somewhere. That's worth exploring. Holding onto things almost always leads us to the worst version of ourselves. It's a very Buddhist way of thinking too, just don't cling. I know.
有时候，你会意识到，是时候离开了，或者，这是一个不适合你的“乐高积木”。但这样做最终会带你去其他值得探索的地方。紧抓不放往往会让我们成为最糟糕的自己。这种思维方式也非常符合佛教的理念，即不要执着。我明白。
Yeah. And I think another part of this metaphor, I don't know if you think of it this way, is the legos aren't even your legos, right? They're like the CEO's legos, the shareholders legos. So you think they're your legos, but no. Well, it is, you know, I will say one of the hard earned things is it can feel very emotional and it can feel very personal. It can feel like your work, I don't know, it can feel like your life is on the line sometimes, just your work life, you know, oh gosh, like this matter so much.
是的，我认为这个比喻还有另一层含义，不知道你是否这么看，它是说这些乐高积木甚至不是你的乐高积木，它们属于CEO或股东。所以你以为这些是你的乐高，但其实不是。不过，我要说的是，通过艰难经历后发现的问题之一是，这可能让人情绪化，甚至让人觉得很私人化。你可能会觉得这就是你的工作，有时候甚至觉得这是你的生命线，只是你的工作生活而已，天哪，这件事真的很重要。
And one of the things that you learn as you get more senior and just have seen stuff is, it's gonna be okay, you know? Like a friend of mine says, careers are long and nobody tells you that, but like they're long. And this moment feels so dire and it feels so hard and it feels scary and it's gonna be okay. So yeah, it is hard to know in the moment and I think like the story is gonna be long and this is gonna be one chapter or maybe even a part of a chapter, not a whole chapter.
当你变得更资深并见识多了之后，你会明白的，其中一件事就是，一切都会好起来的。就像我一个朋友说的，职业生涯是很长的，没有人告诉你这一点，但它确实很长。虽然此刻感觉非常紧迫、困难和可怕，但一切最终都会好起来的。是的，在当下真的很难看清楚局势，不过我认为整个人生就像一个长篇故事，现在这一刻只不过是其中的一章，甚至可能只是一章中的一部分，并不是整个故事。
So embrace the link. To build on that point, I've realized this is my fourth career doing what I do now, whatever the hell this is. I was an engineer, then I was a founder, then I was a product manager and then what the hell I do now, whatever this is, that's a whole different path. You don't have a name for it, yeah, Lonnie? I hate all the terms people use for this world.
所以接受这个链接。为了更好地阐述这一点，我意识到这已经是我的第四份职业了，尽管我也不知道这现在算什么。我之前是个工程师，然后是创始人，接着是产品经理，现在做的这个，不知道该怎么定义，这是一个完全不同的道路。你也不知道该怎么称呼它，对吧，Lonnie？我讨厌人们对这个领域使用的所有术语。
Somebody called me an influencer and I almost ripped their face off. Yeah, man, the most interesting careers are winding and they have starts and stops and failures and successes and control, anybody that's been through a lot of this of controls usually not the name of the game. It's usually just like, let's see what happens. You know, we're gonna try this and we're gonna see what happens next. This is a great segue to another framework that I've heard from folks you've worked with that have been really impactful on them. So Sarah Caldwell, who's a big deal at OpenAI, she told me that the framework that helped her most in her career is something that you call the J-curve versus Stair's career growth framework. Talk about what that's about. I actually give a Ted talk about this one a couple of years ago because I am so passionate about it.
有人称我为“网红”，我差点气炸了。是啊，兄弟，最有趣的职业生涯总是充满曲折，包括起起伏伏的失败和成功，对于那些经历过这种过程的人来说，掌控通常不是其中的关键词。更多的时候是看事情会如何发展。你知道的，我们会尝试一些东西，然后看接下来会发生什么。这正是一个很好的引入，谈到另一个对与您合作过的人产生重大影响的框架。所以，OpenAI的重要人物Sarah Caldwell告诉我，对她职业生涯帮助最大的框架是被称为“J曲线与阶梯式职业成长模型”。聊聊这是什么吧。我几年前对此还做过一个Ted演讲，因为我对此充满热情。
But I'll tell, that's like you can listen to the very packaged like eight minute version of this but I will tell you the real story because it's very relevant to a lot of folks that listen to your podcast. So I was at Facebook for five years, like I said, I spent two years, the first two years I was in HR and I was doing sort of employment branding and culture work and I was like ready to stay there. I think I had in my head, I was gonna stay there until we went public, like that was my plan just because I wanted to help the company through that moment again in my head. So this guy that many people know, at Chimoth Polyabria came to me and Chimoth ran gross and mobile at the time and he came to me and we had lunch and he said it is very Chimoth way, like you're useless, what are you doing in HR?
我来跟你说，这件事有一个简短八分钟的概述版，但我想告诉你完整的故事，因为这对很多收听你播客的人来说都非常有意义。我在Facebook工作了五年，正如我之前提到的，前两年我在做人力资源工作，主要负责员工品牌和文化建设，我当时也有打算一直待在这里。我心里想的是，我会一直待到公司上市，因为我想帮助公司度过这个重要时刻。
有一次，那个很多人都认识的家伙，Chimoth Polyabria找到了我。当时Chimoth负责增长和移动业务。他约我出去吃午饭，期间用非常Chimoth的方式对我说：“你待在人力资源部可真是无用！你在这里干什么呢？”
Like this is stupid, like you should come work for me and then this anybody that knows Chimoth is like, yes, that is actually what he said. He manages to like insult you and compliment you and one sentence. So he gave me all these options on his team and then the last one he said to me was like, I'm gonna go build a mobile phone. Do you wanna come do that with me? And I had like four simultaneous reactions. The first was like, that is incredibly stupid, why are we doing that? And then it was like, is that actually a thing we're doing and then it was like, whoa, I think that sounds kind of fun. And so I left the conversation at Chimoth and I went and asked my boss Larry Guller who's the head of people at Facebook for a very long time.
这太傻了，你应该来为我工作，然后任何认识奇莫斯的人都会说，是的，这确实是他说的话。他总是能在一句话里既侮辱你又赞美你。他给了我很多在他团队里的选择，最后他说，“我准备去造一款手机，你想跟我一起做吗？”我同时产生了四种反应：首先是，这非常愚蠢，我们为什么要做这个？然后是，这真的是我们要做的事情吗？接着是，哇，这听起来还挺有趣的。于是，我结束了与奇莫斯的谈话，去问了我的老板拉里·古勒，他在Facebook负责人员事务很多年。
Like is this actually something we're doing and she was like, I can't believe he offered you that whatever and I basically just like could not get it out of my head. But it didn't make any sense, A, that Chimoth had asked me because I was in HR, like what am I doing? I don't know, absolutely jack shit about mobile. And, but I'd worked on a project with him and I guess that I was smart. And I talked to like Cheryl and she was like, well, that project will be dead in two months but you can do it because you'll still have a job here. A lot of my dad was like, what don't do that? And anyway, a lot of very wise people being like, don't do that. But I kind of couldn't get it out of my head and my friend said to me, you've proven you're really good at this sort of like company wide project management in HR.
这段话的大意是：
“我们真的要做这件事吗？她说，她简直不敢相信他向我提出了那个想法。我脑子里一直想着这件事，但感觉很不合理。首先，Chimoth为什么会问我，因为我在做人力资源的工作，我对移动技术一窍不通。然而，我之前和他一起做过一个项目，他可能觉得我很聪明。我和Cheryl聊过，她说那个项目两个月内就会停止，但我可以试一试，因为我在这里还是有工作的。我爸爸也觉得我不应该做这个，不少聪明的人都建议我不要这样做。但我就是无法摆脱这个想法。我朋友对我说，你已经证明了自己在这类公司范围的项目管理和人力资源上很厉害。”
Why don't you go show yourself how actually good you are? Like, is this transferable? So I took the job and I spent the next six months feeling like an absolute idiot. Like I basically felt like a total jackass all the time. I was sitting in rooms with these like brilliant people, you know, asking the dumbest questions of my life. And at the end of the six months, Chimoth, I think, took a lot of pride in giving me like the lowest performance rating I've ever gotten in my life. And, you know, it just felt like falling off a cliff. And he, you know, then slowly, I remember, I had been doing all these trips to Taiwan because we were actually working on hardware.
为什么你不去展示一下自己的真正实力呢？就好比说，这是不是可以迁移的技能？于是我接受了这份工作，并在接下来的六个月里感到自己完全像个白痴。我觉得自己一直像个十足的笨蛋，坐在会议室里，周围都是些聪明绝顶的人，而我却问了一辈子最愚蠢的问题。在这六个月结束的时候，我觉得Chimoth相当自豪地给了我人生中最低的绩效评分。这感觉就像从悬崖掉下去一样。之后，我还记得清楚，我开始频繁去台湾出差，因为我们正在研究硬件。
And I, at some point, came back from Taiwan and I like drew on a whiteboard for him the layout of a mobile phone and trying to explain to him kind of like, why something he wanted to do was not possible. And I so vividly remember walking out of that meeting, being like, oh, like I actually know things. And slowly, then over the following three years, I became an expert in mobile and I basically, you know, the phone itself was a giant failure, like massive costly failure for Facebook. But it let me, it was not a failure for me. It was a huge job that taught me that I was capable of things that I never could have dreamed of if I had stayed in HR. It set me up to be capable of taking on things that I didn't know about.
有一次，我从台湾回来，给他在白板上画了一个手机的布局，试图向他解释为什么他想做的事情是不可能实现的。我清楚地记得走出会议室时的感觉，那一刻我意识到自己其实真的懂得不少东西。接下来的三年里，我逐渐成为移动领域的专家。虽然那个手机项目对 Facebook 来说是一个巨大的、代价高昂的失败，但对我个人而言却并不如此。这个项目让我意识到自己有能力完成一些如果我留在 HR 行业中永远无法想象的事情。它让我有能力去承担我以前不了解的任务。
And so, Chimoff, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard. He said, you know, look, you can stay, the way a lot of people do careers, this is set of stairs. You can be boring to use Chimoff and stay on these stairs. Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years and your title will change from manager to senior manager to director to senior director, whatever. And he was like, but that is boring. And he's like the much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs, basically that you jump off this thing and you do fall, you know, for a period of time. I always like to say it's about six to nine months. But then this thing happens where you climb out and you know, the picture he drew had this J-curve sort of like, basically leading you to places that are way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.
因此，Chimoff 在向我推荐这份工作时，实际上在白板上画了一幅图。他说，你看，你可以像很多人那样发展职业生涯，就像登一段阶梯。你可以选择无趣的方式，像 Chimoff 所说的那样，留在这段阶梯上。只要一步一个脚印往上走，每两年就会得到晋升，头衔从经理变成高级经理，再到总监，高级总监等等。但他认为，这样做很无聊。他说，更有趣的职业生涯就像跳悬崖──你从某个高度跳下，虽然在某段时间内会往下掉，我通常认为是六到九个月，但事情会发生变化。正如他所画的那幅图，描绘了一条 J 型曲线，意味着你会攀升到那些阶梯永远无法企及的境地。
And to be totally honest, that has been my experience, you know, that taking risks, accepting the sort of like terrible fall and that experience of falling has been more than worth it. And I, you know, it's my Sarah mentions it is that I do give this sort of talk to people that are inside of really fast growing companies because it's such an important place to let go of Legos and jump off cliffs because there's so much opportunity. And it is a place where if you prove to people that you're actually good, if they believe that you are the kind of person that they can use to do lots of things, you can get these opportunities that you are just so deeply unqualified for, but they can take you to places that you could never have imagined.
坦白说，这正是我的经验。你知道，冒险、接受那种可怕的跌落以及跌落的经历，这一切都非常值得。我的朋友Sarah提到过，我确实会对那些在快速成长的公司工作的人讲这样的道理，因为这些地方是放手一搏和勇敢尝试的好地方，因为机会非常多。在这样的环境中，如果你能够向别人证明你的优秀，或者让他们相信你是他们愿意委以重任的人，你就会获得超出你能力范围的机会，而这些机会能带你去到意想不到的地方。
You can come out of those companies with skills that you, you know, no one would ever have reasonably hired you to do, but I ended my time at Facebook in product. And, you know, did business development and hardware and a whole bunch of stuff along the way. And again, nobody would have hired me to do that at the beginning, but it's just because I kept saying yes to things. Molly, I got tingled listening to this story. Wow. Is it down familiar, Lenny? It does. Lenny, I want to ask is, you know, jumping up a cliff, sometimes you fall, you fall, you keep falling. Are there any kind of traits of like, okay, this is one that might be a J-curve and worth the risk of falling? And this is when you should probably just know what's not to do this.
你可以在那些公司中获得让人意想不到的技能，一开始可能没有人会因此雇用你，不过我在 Facebook 的最后是从事产品相关的工作。在此过程中，我还做过业务开发、硬件等多种工作。最初没有人会因为这些雇用我，但我一直勇于尝试新事物。Molly，听到这个故事让我起了鸡皮疙瘩。哇，这听起来是不是很熟悉，Lenny？是的，Lenny，我想问的是，有时候跳下悬崖，你会不停地坠落，有没有一些特征可以帮助判断这是否是一条值得冒险的 J 曲线，还是应该知道哪些事情不应该去做？
Yeah, so, you know, I just think there are different kinds of fear. And, you know, we talk a lot about this in Glue Club because one of the things, you know, there is like a financial fear, right? Like leaving a job and taking a job that has financial risk associated with it or leaving a job and taking time off, which is something I spend a lot of time talking to people about. You got to do the math, you know, and you got to, sometimes there is a type of fear that is telling you like, this is not the right time. Or I don't want to be financially anxious for months and months and months. I use finances because it's the most concrete example of like a type of fear that you should actually listen to.
是这样的，你知道，我认为恐惧有多种类型。在Glue Club，我们经常讨论这个问题。比如，有一种是经济方面的恐惧，对吧？像是离职去做一个具有财务风险的工作，或者辞职后休息一段时间，这些都是我常和别人谈论的事情。你必须要算清账，有时候这种恐惧会告诉你，现在不是合适的时机。或者说，我不想连续几个月都为财务问题感到焦虑。我例举财务方面的问题，因为它是恐惧中最具体的例子，是你需要认真对待和倾听的一种恐惧。
And sometimes you can do the math and, you know, I always counsel people through that. I'm like, what is the number that you need to hit so that you're not constantly terrified financially? And that number is, you know, wildly different for people based on their background and their life. Can you do that, you know, can you consult? Can you, whatever in order to take this leap? But a lot of times fear is just you saying, I'm scared, I can't do this. I'm scared, I'm not capable of it. I'm scared that I, yeah, I'm scared I'll fail. And that's the kind of fear that I think of as like a flashing green light because I'm like that in, I sounds like Matt McGinnis said this too, where it's like, that's the kind of fear that's saying, why don't you go prove to yourself that you are actually capable of this?
有时候你可以计算一下，我总是建议人们这样做。我会问他们，你需要达到一个什么样的数字，才能不再对经济状况感到恐慌？这个数字因人而异，取决于他们的背景和生活情况。你是否能够通过咨询或其他方式来实现这个目标，从而迈出这一步？很多时候，恐惧只是在自我怀疑，比如说：“我害怕，我做不到。我害怕，我没有能力。我害怕，我会失败。”我认为这种恐惧就像一个闪烁的绿灯，Matt McGinnis 也有类似的观点，这种恐惧其实是在催促你去证明自己实际上是有能力做到的。
Or if you fail, like, you'll have learned something too, you know what I mean? You'll have learned like, I took this job in product at Facebook, you know, as my last chapter there. And let me tell you things that people should never find and hire me to do. Like, I am not a good product manager. But I would never, I'm a, I've got a great product mindset. I can sit, you know, in a bunch of chairs and, and, and hang with the product folks. But like, I'm not the person that cares about the button, do you know what I mean? And I would never have learned that. I wouldn't have known kind of who I was if I hadn't taken that risk and, you know, failed or, or at least learned that it's not something I wanted to do again.
或者，如果你失败了，你也会学到一些东西，你明白我的意思吗？比如说，我在Facebook做过产品这份工作，那是我在那里最后的一段经历。我会告诉你，有些事情千万不要让我去做，比如说，我不是一个好的产品经理。但我确实有很好的产品思维，我可以和一群产品团队的人讨论并交流。但我对按钮细节之类的东西不太关心，你明白我的意思吗？如果我当初不去冒险尝试，不经历失败，或者至少没有发现这不是我想再次从事的事情，我就不会了解自己到底适合什么。
So there's many different lessons that come from facing down those fears and jumping off the cliff, you know? But mostly what it is is knowing yourself better and knowing where you go next from there. That is such helpful advice. I also love how you frame this. I've proved to yourself that you can do this. It's not, I'm going to show them that I can do this. Because the way you describe this, usually it's an opportunity given to you. Hey, can you do this thing? We want you to leave this new thing. And the fear is like, I don't think I can do that. And what you're saying here is prove it to yourself that you can. Or I guess it's also okay, maybe I can't. And then I'll learn that. And then I'll know more about myself.
面对恐惧并勇敢“跳下悬崖”可以带给我们很多不同的启示。最重要的是，这让我们更加了解自己，并知道接下来该走向何方。这真是一条非常有用的建议。我也很喜欢你这样表达：证明给自己看，你能够做到这件事。而不是为了向别人展示“我能做到”。通常情况下，这是一种机会，别人可能会问你：嘿，你能不能做这件事情？我们希望你来领导这个新的项目。而恐惧常常让我们想：“我不认为我能做到。”你所说的就是需要向自己证明“我能行”。当然，也有可能最后发现自己真的做不到，但即便如此，你也会因此更了解自己。
Yeah, exactly. I mean, one of the greatest gifts in a career is knowing yourself, you know? And that's a, that's a lifelong journey. Because who you are and what you want changes. But that knowledge and that gift, like nothing accelerates your self-knowledge faster than trying to do something that you don't know how to do and that you're scared of. There's this probably the quote that you use most on this podcast comes up. Again, in my mind as you talk about this, this line that the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek. Hell yes, exactly. Well said. There it is. I haven't heard that one from you so clearly. I need to listen. Okay, that's great. I'm glad I don't overuse it. It just feels like it comes up again and again.
是的，确实如此。我想，在职业生涯中最大的礼物之一就是了解自己，对吧？而这是一段终身的旅程。因为你是谁和你想要什么是会改变的。但拥有这样的认知和礼物，真的没有什么能比尝试去做那些你不知道怎么做并且害怕去做的事情更能加速自我认知的。可能在你这个播客中引用最多的一句话又浮现在我脑海中，那就是：你所害怕的洞穴里藏着你寻找的宝藏。没错，就是这样，说得好。我以前没有听你这么清楚地说过这句话。我得多听听。很好，我很高兴我没有用滥这句话，只是觉得它总是反复出现。
Yeah. And I think you're point about the runway and the finances is such an important one because that's a very real practical question. One thing I did when I took time off. I took a year off after I left my job. What helped me was I just created a runway goal for myself. I'm just like, okay, here's what it's going to cost me for six months or a year to live without any income. Am I comfortable just burning through these tens of thousands of dollars to explore and I see something new emerge. And so you just have to feel good. Okay, yes, I'm going to burn all that money. That's exactly the exercise. You know, you're saying runway. I say burn rate. So like we both were raised inside of companies inside of tech.
是的，我认为你提到的关于资金储备和财务状况的问题非常重要，因为这是一个非常真实和实际的问题。我在辞职后休息了一年，这期间我制定了一个自己的资金规划目标。我会估算一下，没有收入的情况下，自己生活六个月或一年的花费。我会问自己是否愿意消耗这些几万美元去探索和寻找新事物。你需要对这种选择感到踏实，是否愿意烧掉这些钱。这就是你所说的资金储备的管理，而我称之为资金消耗率。我们都是在科技公司中成长起来的，所以我们有这样的思维方式。
But I think it is do the math, right? What can you afford? What can you afford and still feel safe? Because sometimes I mean, again, I think that that is different for everyone. But it is such an important set of math to do because a lot of times that number is smaller than you think it is. Like then your brain makes it out to be if you have this sort of existential financial anxiety versus like, I always say like specific financial anxiety is much more useful than existential financial anxiety. And you know, some friends are leaving jobs and I'll be like, hey, you know, your number is 5K or 10K a month. You have to believe that you can get a consulting gig that will play you that. Do you believe that? You know, and it's like either yes or no. And then okay, either we're doing it or not, you know.
但我觉得是要算一算对吧？你能承担多少？在确保自己感到安全的前提下，你能承担多少？因为有时候这个问题因人而异。但这是一个很重要的计算，因为很多时候这个数字比你想象的要小。就像如果你有一种存在性的财务焦虑，你的大脑可能会放大这个数字，而具体的财务焦虑通常比存在性的焦虑更有实际意义。我总是说，具体的财务焦虑要比存在性的财务焦虑更有用。比如有些朋友要离职，我会跟他们说，你的目标每月是赚5000或1万块。你得相信自己能找到一个可以支付你这个数的咨询工作。你相信吗？答案要么是相信，要么是不相信。然后我们就可以决定是去做，还是不去做。
The other part is j-curve that I think is really important to touch on is this idea for the first six or nine months you're going to be at the bottom of the j-curve, like falling, still falling. Yeah. And some projects don't last that long and then you're like, okay, total failure. I never emerged from this fall. So is there any advice there of just like, how do you create that enough space to give you a chance to start to unfold? I mean, the most valuable thing that happens as you fall is learning. And even on the other side of failure, you've learned a shit ton. Like, always say like the most important thing to do in the falling phase and the risk taking land is to learn to embrace being a professional idiot, you know, basically being the one that shows up at the meeting and is like, what are we talking about? Like, what does that word mean?
另一部分是关于J曲线，我认为这个概念非常重要，值得一提。前六到九个月，你可能会处于J曲线的底部，就像不断下滑。有些项目可能撑不到那么久，所以你会觉得这完全就是一个失败，因为永远没有从下滑中走出来。那么，有没有一些建议可以帮助你创造足够的空间，让你有机会展开呢？其实，在下滑过程中最有价值的是学习。即使在失败之后，你也学到了大量东西。我总是说，在下滑阶段和风险挑战中，最重要的是学会接受自己成为"专业的傻瓜"，简单来说，就是在会议上敢于问："我们在讨论什么？这个词是什么意思？"
Because for a bunch of reasons. Number one, you can learn so much. And again, even in the face of failure, no one can take away your learning. Do you know what I mean? But the other thing is that like, it turns out that a lot of the questions in the world that you're sitting in the meeting and you're like, this is a dumb question. Like, I'm everyone's going to think I'm an idiot, but then you get brave and you ask it. And it turns out it wasn't a dumb question. Jared, I mean, like, turns out that everyone had that question in their mind, but no one was brave enough to ask it. So from a skills perspective, again, regardless of outcome, being the person that sort of takes their learning in their own hands, learning no matter what and learning to sort of like ask those dumb questions, it's a superpower.
因为有很多理由。首先，你可以学到很多东西。即使失败了，也没有人能夺走你的学习成果。你明白我的意思吗？还有一点就是，很多时候会议上的问题看似很愚蠢，你可能觉得大家会认为你很笨，但如果你勇敢地问出来，结果往往并不愚蠢。比如说，大家其实都有这个疑问，只是没有人敢问罢了。所以从技能的角度来看，不管结果如何，主动掌握学习机会，并勇于提出那些看似愚蠢的问题，这本身就是一种超级能力。
I always say that like, actually, my superpower is being a professional moron because I'm the one that shows up in a room. And it's like, do we have goals? Like, what are we doing? Why are we talking about this? Why are we having this meeting? And most of the time, it's actually what I was hired to do, which is bring clarity. It's so funny. I just recorded a podcast episode with a PM named Zevi who joined Wix. And he had this thought. He's like, very young PM just getting started. And he's like, okay, I need to be a 10x PM because that's what they expect of me. That's what everyone that is really good. That's how I think of a 10x PM. And then he went into his first meeting and he just failed. And he just felt so bad. He's like, I guess I'm not that 10x PM. They're all going to see that. They're all going to think I'm terrible.
我总是说，其实我的超级能力就是做一个职业的"笨蛋"，因为我是那个走进房间然后提出问题的人，比如说："我们有目标吗？我们在做什么？我们为什么讨论这个？为什么要开这个会？" 大多数时候，这其实就是我被雇来做的事情，也就是带来清晰度。这很有趣，我刚刚录制了一期播客，嘉宾是一个叫Zevi的产品经理，他刚刚加入Wix。他有个想法：他是个刚起步的年轻PM，他觉得自己必须成为一个10倍的PM，因为公司对他的期望就是这样，他认为所有出色的人都是那样的一个10倍PM。然后他参加了第一次会议，但失败了。他感到非常沮丧，觉得自己根本不是那个10倍PM，担心大家都会认为他很差。
And then he did another presentation a little bit later. And people were so impressed with how he learned and evolved and improved. And he realized that he needs to be not a 10x PM, but a 10x learner. And that's what people actually expect from someone, especially a junior person. Yeah. Well, and I was having a conversation last night with a friend of mine who has a senior in high school. And I was like, what? What is the plan? Like, what are we telling this senior in high school to think about relative to their career, given everything that's going on with AI? And we talked about it a bunch, but what we both circled back to is this idea of soft skills. And that actually the only thing you can really anchor on right now is that teaching kids grit, teaching them hard work, teaching them learning.
然后他稍后又做了一次演讲。人们对他如何学习、进步和提高感到印象深刻。他意识到自己不需要成为一个10倍的产品经理，而是要成为一个10倍的学习者。这就是人们对一个人的真正期待，尤其是对年轻人而言。昨晚我和一个朋友聊天，他的孩子正在上高三。我问他计划是什么，我们应该让这位高三学生在选择职业时考虑哪些因素，尤其是在人工智能快速发展的背景下。我们讨论了很多，但最终我们都回到了一个观点：软技能的重要性。目前唯一可以真正依靠的，就是教孩子们坚韧不拔的精神、努力工作和学习的能力。
Like learning how to learn, loving learning, being able to fall in a world that's changing this fast. And I say this inside of companies too, right? I always say like what you know today is way less valuable than what you can learn by tomorrow. If you're inside of a company where the growth curve is like this, what you know today is like irrelevant. Somebody once told me they rewrite, I'm sure this is a faster now, but they rewrote the entire code base in Google every eight years, which means that like if you're not learning, if you're not evolving, then you become irrelevant and extinct. It's actually the whole sort of like underlying point of the Legos stuff is that like evolution is the way you stay on top. And I think that's more true today than it's ever been. And luckily AI is really good at helping us learn. Totally. So that's good. Thank you AI.
像学习如何学习，热爱学习，并能在这个快速变化的世界中有所发展。我在公司内部也常常这样说：今天你所知道的远远不如你明天能学到的有价值。如果你身处快速发展的公司，今天所掌握的知识可能很快就会变得无关紧要。有人曾告诉我，谷歌大约每八年就会重写整个代码库，而现在这个速度可能更快。这意味着如果你不学习和进步，就会变得无关紧要，甚至被淘汰。这其实也是积木之类的东西背后的一个核心理念：进化是让你保持领先的方式。我认为这一点在今天尤为真实。幸运的是，人工智能在帮助我们学习方面非常出色。真是太好了，谢谢你，人工智能。
And this actually comes up a bunch of the podcast. I ask a lot of AI forward people what they're teaching their kids and curiosity is one of the main things people talk a lot about just like make them help them develop curiosity, but the world and yeah. Yeah. Okay. I feel like I could be talking about this specific topic for a whole podcast episode, but I want to move on to a couple other frameworks that you've developed. One is something called the water line model and another former colleague of yours. So this is the most impactful thing that was that they've learned from you on their career. So talk about the water line model.
在很多播客中，这个话题实际上经常出现。我问了许多对人工智能有前瞻性的人士，他们正在教他们的孩子什么。好奇心是大家常提的一个主要方面，就是要帮助孩子们培养对世界的好奇心。对了，我觉得我可以就这个具体话题聊上一整集播客，但我想转向你开发的另外几个框架。其中一个是所谓的水线模型，另一个是你的前同事的一个方法。这是他们在职业生涯中从你那里学到的最有影响力的东西之一。请谈谈水线模型。
Okay. Yeah. Well, first of all, the water line model is not mine. It's something it's from some business books somewhere, but I actually learned it. So my first job out of college was leading wilderness trips. I led 75 day wilderness trips in Patagonia and Alaska. First school called Knowles, the National Outdoor Leadership School. And Knowles basically teaches essentially leadership and communication skills to students. Mostly I was mostly doing like college age kids through wilderness expeditions. So by having to lead a group of your peers that you don't know, anyway, the water line model is something that we taught on Knowles. And it's a really, really helpful model for understanding how to diagnose when something is not working on a team.
好的，是这样。首先，要说明一下，“水线模型”不是我发明的，它来源于某些商业书籍。不过，我确实在实践中学习到了它。我的第一份工作是在大学毕业后带领荒野探险活动。我在巴塔哥尼亚和阿拉斯加带领过为期75天的野外探险。这份工作是在一所叫做诺尔斯（National Outdoor Leadership School，简称NOLS）的学校进行的。这所学校主要教授学生领导力和沟通技巧。我主要带领的是大学年龄段的学生，通过荒野远足教他们这些技能。在带领你不认识的同龄人团队时，“水线模型”是我们在诺尔斯用来教学的一个非常有用的模型，它对于理解如何判断团队中出现的问题非常有效。
And so I teach it inside of glue club. And I'll just quickly explain it. So basically, the way to think about the water line model is that a team is a boat. And it's a boat on an ocean trying to get somewhere, getting somewhere as goals, right? What are we trying to build or ship or do? And essentially that is going to be harder, easier based on whatever the shape of the ocean is, right? If it's really choppy, it's harder, it's smoother than calm, it's going to be easy to get to your goals. So the water line basically asks the question, like, what is going on under the water? What is going on that's making it harder or easier to get to your goals? And there's essentially four things underneath the water.
在胶合俱乐部里，我会教授这个概念。我先简单解释一下。水线模型可以这样理解：一个团队就像一条船，这艘船在海洋上航行，努力到达某个目标。目标可以是我们想要建造、发布或完成的事情。航行的难易程度取决于海洋的状态，如果海面波涛汹涌，航行会更困难；如果海面平静，航行就更容易接近目标。水线模型基本上是在问水面下发生了什么事情，这些事情让我们更难或更容易实现目标。在水面之下，基本上有四个要素。
And they are in a descending order. So the surface level is what's called structural things. And basically structural things are like goal setting, vision, roles, expectations, like kind of the structures you put in place to make a team and a company and a business make sense that touch every single member of the team. Right below that is something called dynamics, which is essentially like how the team works together. It's culture, it's decision-making, it's how we resolve conflict, all the sort of like interwoven pieces of how teams work together.
它们是按降序排列的。首先是表层的结构层面。基本上，结构层面的东西包括设定目标、愿景、角色、期望等。这些是你用来让团队、公司和业务有序运作的框架，涉及团队中的每一位成员。在其之下的是所谓的动力层面，这主要指的是团队协作的方式。它包括文化、决策、解决冲突的方法，所有关于团队如何紧密合作的内容。
And then below that is interpersonal. So basically relationships between two people and all the things that come with us being humans. And then the bottom is intrapersonal, meaning within one person challenges and issues there. And the interesting thing about this model is that most people, when we, when something's going wrong on a team, a lot of times we always go to the bottom. We go to the people where like the people aren't getting along, that person's having a rough moment, we go to the humans.
在这之下是人际关系，就是两人之间的关系，以及我们作为人类带来的一切。而最底层是个人内在的关系，意指一个人内部的挑战和问题。这个模型有趣的地方在于，当团队出问题时，大多数情况下我们总是会着眼于最底层。我们会关注人与人之间的不合，或者某个人正经历困难时刻，我们会把目光投向个体的人身上。
But the rule with the waterline model, which is very memorable, is you snorkel before you scuba. So 80% of problems on teams actually happen because of structural issues or dynamics issues. So when there are problems on your team where you start is at the top, you start structural issues. And one of my biggest things that I say all the time over and over again inside of Blue Club is your only goal as a manager if you do nothing else is clear roles and clear expectations. That's it. Because honestly, like I've taken over a lot of teams in my life and almost always I show up.
水线模型的规则非常容易记住，就是在潜水前先浮潜。团队中大约80%的问题实际上是由于结构性或动态性问题导致的。所以当团队出现问题时，你首先要从顶部开始处理，也就是说从结构性问题入手。我一直强调在Blue Club管理团队时，如果非要简化目标，你唯一必须做到的就是明确角色和期望，仅此而已。说实话，我在职业生涯中接管过很多团队，几乎每次我上任时……
And it turns out that no one knows what their job is and no one knows what success looks like. And if you can make those two things clear, which again is at the snorkel level, it will fix, you know, a huge percentage of other issues on a team. But the main thing is like, where you start and just always sort of starting at that structural level or the dynamics level and not sort of immediately going to the people and all that. Because yes, people cause all sorts of problems.
结果是，没有人知道他们的工作是什么，也没有人清楚成功的标准是什么。如果你能把这两点搞清楚，也就是从基本层面入手，就可以解决团队中大量其他问题。但最重要的是，要从结构层面或动态层面入手，而不是立即将问题归结于某个人。因为是的，人确实会引发各种问题。
But a lot of times the problems are happening because they're existing inside of a structure that's confusing. Another very vivid metaphor. And just I love how it builds on it with the snorkeling. Okay, so just to be super clear about this, the takeaway here is you have a problem with your team, with the company. Many people think it's the jump to like the people are the problem. They're not good enough. They're not working hard enough.
很多时候，问题出现是因为它们存在于一个让人困惑的结构中。这个比喻非常形象。而且我特别喜欢它用浮潜来进一步阐述这个比喻。为了让这一点更加清楚，重点是：当你遇到团队或公司问题时，很多人倾向于认为是这些人有问题，比如他们不够优秀，或者不够努力。实际上，这并不是问题的真正所在。
Really what you're saying is most often the issue is not the person. It's the situation, whether it's the structure of how they're set up to work or the dynamics amongst the people. And specifically what you're saying is like the role may be isn't clear or what success means for that role is not clear. You know, every company I've worked with their advice, like I often start with like what are the goals and usually what you get back is not clear.
实际上，你的意思是问题往往不是出在人身上，而是出在情境上。可能是他们的工作安排结构问题，或者是人与人之间的互动动态问题。更具体地说，是角色可能不明确，或者对该角色成功的定义不清楚。每一次我和公司合作时，他们都建议我从目标入手，但通常我得到的反馈却不够明确。
And that in and of itself is a structural issue, right? How can someone show up and decide what they're going to do with their day all day if the goals aren't clear if they don't actually know what the priorities are? And then it goes to like, okay, role, right? Like do I know what my job is? Do I know what number I'm was hired to own and drive?
这本身就是一个结构性问题，对吧？如果目标不清晰，或者他们不知道优先事项是什么，那么一个人怎么能全天都做好自己的工作安排呢？接下来就涉及到角色的问题，比如我是否清楚自己的工作职责是什么？我是否清楚我被聘来负责和推动的目标是什么？
And then like do I know what success looks like? How does my role tie to that overall goal that the company just literally right there? You got like probably 80% of problems inside of companies because this is the hard work of company building. Like it's the stuff that's not intuitive. How do you organize a group of people to know which direction to row, you know?
然后，我知道成功的样子吗？我的角色如何与公司刚刚设定的整体目标联系起来？这儿可能涵盖了公司内部大约80%的问题，因为这是公司建设中最困难的部分。这些事情并不是直观的。你该如何组织一群人，以便他们知道该朝哪个方向努力呢？
And that equation, again, I would say 80% of problems that I see performance issues, like I always start with does this person actually know what you expect of that? If not, go back to step one. Do not I mean clarify expectations. So the waterline model is just helpful for reminding us, like, start at the top. So what would you do there? Say you're a manager, you're ever going to issue a team member.
这段话的大意是：对于我看到的80%的绩效问题，我总是首先考虑这个人是否真的知道你对他们的期望。如果他们不知道，那就回到第一步，明确期望。因此，水线模型对于提醒我们来说很有帮助，比如从最基础的开始。所以，如果你是一位经理，你将对团队成员提出什么问题？
Would you go and ask, Hey, let's just make sure we're aligned on goals and roles? Is that is how you approach it? Or is there a different approach? So a lot of times what I do is two sided, right? So it's like, Hey, tell me here's what I'm seeing. And tell me what's going on for you? Like, what do you know? Do you know XYZ? Do you know what what do you tell me what you know when I when I take over a team when I'm doing my sort of like listening tour?
你是否会这样询问：“嘿，让我们确认一下我们的目标和角色是一致的，好吗？”这是你的处理方式吗？还是有其他的方法？我常用的是一种双向沟通的方法。比如，我会说：“嘿，告诉我，我看到的是这样的情况。那你那边是什么情况？你知道哪些信息？关于XYZ，你知道些什么？当我接管一个团队并进行听取意见的巡回活动时，我会这样询问。”
Part of what I'm asking is what do you think your job is? What do you what number were you hired to drive? Because what you'll find is often like their picture is different than your picture. You think you've been clear. They somehow got, you know, you described an elephant they were spat out a tiger. And that coming back to like, okay, no, we're building an elephant. You're in charge of the trunk.
我想知道的是你认为你的工作是什么？你认为你的工作目标是什么？因为你会发现，很多时候他们的理解和你的理解不同。你以为你已经说明白了，但他们却搞错了，比如你描述了一头大象，他们却弄出了只老虎。因此，需要回过头来说清楚：好的，我们是在建造一头大象，而你负责大象的鼻子。
We'll, you know, in some percentage of cases actually make a huge difference to the person's work and time and performance. And you know, in playing cases, it doesn't, but that's always where I would start because it so often is just like a more fundamental problem that then would lead you to look at other things across the team. But yeah, that's I would say to a dialogue, but reclareifying roles and expectations, re describing the elephant over and over and over again is one of the hardest parts about being a leader because you feel like a broken record, right? You feel you made it. You're like I've said this 45 times. Turns out no one heard you the first 43 and you have to you have to re describe it in order for people to hear you and to re-understand their sort of role in what they're doing.
我们会在某些情况下对一个人的工作、时间和表现产生巨大影响。不过，在一些情况下却没有明显效果，但我仍然会从这里开始着手，因为通常这是更为根本性的问题，它会引导我们去审视团队中的其他方面。作为一个领导者，最困难的工作之一就是不断地明确角色和期望，反复强调那些看似显而易见的事情。你会觉得自己像是在重复，因为你可能已经说过45次了，但实际上前43次没人真正听进去。你必须重复解释，以便让人们真正理解他们的角色和他们正在做的事情。
I love how you reframe the way I approach it by starting with here's what I'm seeing. What do you seeing? What do you what do you think your role is? The very like nonviolent communication oriented, which is a clear pattern of this podcast, just the power of that specific framework. Yeah, totally. Well, like I said, work is about humans and it's the art of sort of like organizing humans to get something done and build something that's great greater than the some of its parts. And that is an art of sort of the humanness and all of us. How do we get people to hear us? How do we get people aligned work for a lifetime?
我喜欢你重新定义我处理问题的方式，你一开始就说：“这是我所观察到的。你看到了什么？你认为你的角色是什么？”这种方式非常符合非暴力沟通的方法，这是这个播客的一个明显特点，可以看出这种框架的力量。是的，完全同意。正如我所说，工作是关于人的，它是一门艺术，涉及如何组织人以完成某件事情，并创造出一个比其部分之和更伟大的整体。这是一种关于我们每个人“人性”的艺术。我们如何让别人听到我们的声音？我们如何让人们协调一致地工作并为之投入一生？
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Let me actually follow this thread of the importance of goals and just being clear around this stuff. You have these six rules for creating clear goals and alignment on teams. Talk about these six rules. Totally. I feel like there should be less than six, but we're at, I would say at a high level, two things before I get to the six. One is that I definitely have a bone to pick with OPR. I feel like it's obviously been a really helpful framework for Google and others and a lot of times when I show up and say to a company or I'm talking to a leader and I'm like, you know, what are your goals? What I get back is this like spread sheet that has like a hundred lines and it feels like it's written in Greek and like when I look at it, I'm like, this doesn't create clarity for anyone.
让我跟随这个主题，谈谈目标的重要性以及明确这些事情的重要性。你有制定明确目标和确保团队一致性的六条规则。请谈谈这六条规则。总的来说，我觉得应该少于六条，但在我讲这六条之前，有两个重要的点要说。首先，我对OKR（目标与关键成果法）有些意见。虽然对谷歌和其他公司来说，这是一个非常有用的框架，但很多时候，当我到一个公司或者跟领导交谈时，我会问“你们的目标是什么？”而我得到的是一张有着一百行、像是用希腊语写的电子表格，当我看的时候，感觉这并没有为任何人创造清晰性。
And it brings me actually sort of like, what is the point of goals? What, why do we have them? And at the end of the day, goals are a communication tool. That's what they are. They are a communication tool designed to create clarity, to help people know, I'm going to show up at my desk, what should I work on? What's the most important thing? And your hundred line spreadsheet doesn't help anybody. And the second thing I would just say is like, you really have to ask the question, what is right for me at my this company and this stage? What is right for a seed stage company? If not what is right for, you know, a company that's got an established business and a clear go to market machine.
这让我思考起目标的意义。为什么我们需要目标？归根结底，目标是一种沟通工具。它们是用来创造清晰感的，帮助人们了解：当我来到工作岗位时，我应该做什么？什么是最重要的？你的那份长达一百行的电子表格对任何人都没有帮助。其次，我还想说的是，你真的需要问自己，在我所在的公司和所处阶段，什么才是合适的？对于一个种子期的公司来说，合适的东西可能并不适用于一个拥有成熟业务和明确市场策略的公司。
So, you know, when I'm building in seed stage, I'm setting goals every two months in a very iterative way. When I have an established business, I can actually set annual goals, but annual goals for early stage companies is just like a waste of time. So anyway, a lot of my goal setting stuff actually comes from Facebook, which I think was very, very good at this. So, the first role is that no company needs more than three company goals. And the point of company goals is to help people know what the most important things are, two success. So Facebook basically had three goals for the entire time I was there. It was five years. And we did, you know, six month goal setting. I think we did annual goal setting that ended up getting reset every six months, but whatever.
所以，当我在种子阶段构建公司的时候，我每两个月设定一次目标，采用的是一种非常迭代的方式。当我有了一家成熟的企业后，我可以设定年度目标，但对于早期阶段的公司，年度目标就像是在浪费时间。不管怎样，我的许多目标设定实际上是从 Facebook 学来的，我觉得他们在这方面做得非常好。首先的规则是，没有公司需要设定超过三个公司目标。公司目标的意义在于帮助员工了解什么是最重要的事情，以实现成功。在我工作的五年里，Facebook 一直只有三个主要目标，而且我们每六个月进行一次目标设定。我想我们曾尝试过年度目标设定，但最后还是每六个月重置一次。无论如何就这样。
So the three goals were this. There was growth, which was measured as monthly active users. That was the externally reported number eventually, MAUs. The second goal was engagement, meaning how often do people come back and use the site. And the third was revenue. And we literally had three goals for the five years that I was there. If you can govern that business with three goals, you can govern literally any business with three goals. So no company needs more than three goals.
所以这三个目标是这样的。首先是增长，用每月活跃用户数来衡量，这是对外公布的数据。第二个目标是用户参与度，即人们返回和使用网站的频率。第三个目标是收入。在我工作的那五年里，我们就是按照这三个目标来经营的。如果你能用三个目标管理好这个业务，那么实际上任何业务都可以用三个目标来管理。所以，任何公司都不需要超过三个目标。
The second thing is that one goal needs to win in a fight. So if I'm sitting down and asking, how do I prioritize my time on a given day, I need to know what is the most important thing. You know, at Facebook, we had growth, right? And there's a lot of different ways you can add monthly active users to a social media site, including you can go by a whole bunch of bots in Indonesia. And that would add to your MAU number, but it would not add to your engagement number.
第二件事是，一个目标需要在权衡中胜出。因此，当我坐下来问自己，我该如何在某一天优先安排我的时间时，我需要知道什么是最重要的事情。你知道，在Facebook，我们的目标是增长，对吧？有很多方法可以增加一个社交媒体网站的月活跃用户数，比如，你可以在印度尼西亚购买一大堆虚假账户，这样确实会增加你的月活跃用户数，但不会提高用户参与度。
And it was very clear for the entire time that I was there that engagement was the most important thing, acquiring users that were going to use the site all the time. That's what drives revenue. It's also what drove, you know, sort of the heart of that site. So if you had to prioritize something, you prioritize engagement, that goal won in the fight.
在我在那里工作的整个过程中，非常清楚的一点是，用户参与度是最重要的事情。获取会经常使用这个网站的用户对我们至关重要。这不仅推动了收入的增长，也是网站的核心动力。所以，如果要优先考虑某个目标，就是用户参与度，这个目标最终胜出。
The third I'll say is, I call it the explain it to me like I'm five goal, but like an intern that started on Monday should be able to look at your goals and understand them. And if they can't, then you are failing because they are not a communication tool that's effective. You have to be able to understand the goals. You have to explain the acronyms. You have to have numbers that make sense to average people. Otherwise, again, it fails as a communication tool.
第三个我要说的是，我称之为“向我解释得像我只有五岁”这个目标。一个刚刚在周一入职的实习生应该能够看懂你的目标。如果他们不能理解，那么你就是失败了，因为这说明这不是一个有效的沟通工具。你必须能够理解这些目标。你需要解释缩略语，使用普通人能理解的数字。否则，这个工具同样会作为沟通工具而失效。
The fourth one is actually I stole a phrase from Claire Houston, who you've had on your podcast, but wrote a book called Scaling People. And in it, she says this sentence that I love, which is strategy strategy should hurt. And you know, my role used to be like set non-goals. Basically, make it as clear what you're not going to do as what you are going to do. But strategy should hurt is a much better way to explain it to people, which is if you're not making trade-offs that are painful, you are not actually helping people prioritize their time.
第四点其实是我从你们播客上请到的嘉宾克莱尔·休斯顿那里“偷”来的。她写了一本书叫《Scaling People》，书中有一句我特别喜欢的话：战略应该是痛苦的。我过去的角色就像是制定“非目标”，基本上就是要明确哪些事情不做和哪些事情要做。而“战略应该是痛苦的”则是更好地解释了这个概念，就是说如果你不做出一些痛苦的取舍，那你实际上没有帮助人们优先安排他们的时间。
Because the nature of work is that people will show up every day and do something. And either you are very clear with them about what the priorities are or they're going to prioritize for you because they're going to choose what they work on every day. And we see this so much with founders where they can't cut things off the list. They just have to have the 10 goals. And I'm like, cool, six of these goals are not going to get done. So either you pick which four it is or other people are going to pick for you. So strategy should hurt. If your goal-setting process is not painful, then you're not prioritizing heavily enough.
工作性质决定了人们每天会来上班并做一些事情。要么你非常清晰地告诉他们什么是优先事项，要么他们就会自己决定，把每天的工作重点放在他们认为重要的事情上。我们常常看到创始人面临的问题是，他们无法从待办事项中划去一些项目，总是想同时实现十个目标。但实际上，我会告诉他们，其中有六个目标是无法完成的。所以要么你自己选择要完成的四个目标，要么就由别人帮你选择。因此，制订战略应该是一个让人感到痛苦的过程。如果在设定目标时没有感到压力，那么说明你还没有足够明确地设定优先级。
Okay, ready? We're on number five. This is more of an organizational point, but it's really important for the waterline model too, which is that one goal has one owner. You have a number, that number has a name next to it. If you cannot do that work, you haven't done the most important work to actually make sure that these goals get accomplished. And it's organizational work. And it's very painful.
好的，准备好了吗？我们现在讲第五点。这更多是一个组织方面的要点，但对于水线模型也很重要，那就是每个目标都有一个负责人。这个目标有个数字，数字旁边有个名字。如果你不能做到这一点，那你就没有完成最重要的工作，确保这些目标能够实现。这是组织工作，也是非常困难的工作。
Because sometimes it feels like, oh, this person can go on or this maybe they'll just own it together. Two people owning a goal is no one owning a goal. One person owns the goal. Who is it? It's not you as the CEO. It's someone that works for you. So one goal, one owner.
有时候感觉好像这个人也可以承担这个目标，或者他们可以一起负责。但实际上，两个人负责一个目标等于没有人负责。一个目标应该由一个人负责。那么是谁呢？这个人不是你这个CEO，而是为你工作的人。因此，一个目标，一个负责人。
And then the last, which is the hardest, is that goals by themselves are not enough. I've spent a lot of time with founders that are like, I did it. I set the goals. Why is why why not working? I don't understand. And I'm like, what did you do after you set the goals? And they're like, I don't know, I set the goals. Goals, you know, James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits has this really lovely sentence, which is winners and losers have the same goal.
最后一点，也是最难的一点，就是仅有目标还不够。我花了很多时间和创业者交流，他们常常会说，我设定了目标，为什么还是不奏效？我不明白。他们往往不清楚自己设定目标后做了什么。正如《原子习惯》的作者詹姆斯·克利尔所说，“赢家和输家有着相同的目标。”这句话很有启发性。
Goals by themselves are not enough. You have to have a process by which you follow up on the goals and you hold people accountable to the goals. And you learn from the goals because so much of goal setting, particularly, you know, if you're earlier in building your company is about learning from trying to do something. You set a goal. Can we do it? How hard is it to move this number?
仅仅设定目标是不够的。你需要有一个跟进目标的过程，并让相关人员对这些目标负责。同时，你要从实现目标的过程中学习，尤其是在企业刚起步的时候，这是非常重要的。这不仅仅是设定一个目标，还需要思考我们能否实现这个目标，以及提升这个指标的难度有多大。
You know, that is the learn, you might be wrong all the time, but you're learning what it takes to move the number. So the num, the setting the goal by itself, not enough. You have to build a process in this system to like, actually learn from the goal.
你知道，这就像是一个学习的过程。你可能一直都在犯错，但你在学习如何取得进步。所以，仅仅设定一个目标是不够的。你必须在这个系统中建立一个能真正从目标中学习的过程。
Wow. This list is there's so much power in this list. It's such a long. No, I don't think it is because each of these has so much depth and power to them that saves you so much headache and just like wasted time and resources. Just like the idea of one owner one goal, something I've personally discovered to have such power because and correct me if I'm missing something here, but just if you feel like someone else may be doing the thing or feels like it's not just fully responsibility, there's so much less energy and and just like mental, I don't know, you just don't care as much about hitting that goal. If it's in if it's you, yeah, if it's like Lenny, this goal is your goal. And if you hit it, it's you've done it. If you don't, you've done a bad job. Like that is such motivating, so motivating.
哇，这个清单真的太强大了。它看起来很长，但我不认为它真的长，因为每一项都有着深刻的意义和强大的力量，可以为你节省很多麻烦和不必要的时间和资源。就像“一个目标一个负责人”这个理念，我个人发现它非常有力量。如果你觉得别人也在做这件事情，或者觉得这不完全是你的责任，你就会投入更少的精力和心思，可能不会那么在意是否达成目标。但如果这目标是属于你的，比如说“莱尼，这个目标是你的”，如果实现了就是你的功劳，如果没达到就是你的失误，这样的责任感是非常有激励作用的。
If it's like me and Molly, okay, well, we'll figure it out. It creates a flood of clarity that seeps down from the person to and and you know, to go back to the waterline model, I would say so often you'll actually find companies that have set goals, but they everyone know and owns the goals. Everyone owns the goals. Multiple people on the go and it's like that you didn't actually get all the way of the answer, you know, and I will say that the ownership thing is hard. Like it can feel painful, but it's really important, you know, there's only one owner and that means that that person come hell or high water owns that number.
如果是我和Molly，我们会找到解决办法。这种情况会带来一种清晰感，就像水流一样从上到下渗透开来。回到水线模型，我会说，你经常会发现其实很多公司都设定了目标，但每个人都知道并拥有这些目标。他们都有目标，就像你没有真正找到答案。我想说的是，拥有目标是很难的，虽然有时会让人感到痛苦，但却非常重要。只有一个人是目标的真正负责人，这意味着无论发生什么，这个人都必须对那个数字负责。
Yeah, the way we I described it every interview was just like someone asks someone's asked to be on the line for this and that just works. Such a powerful lever to drive things to have one person responsible. The other is just this idea of a strategy hurting. I love that. I love that phrase. I forgot. I forgot. Claire had that so true. So good. Because the whole idea is you need to not do things. You need to decide what you're not like the whole strategy is a big part of it is what we are not doing. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're not making painful choices, then you're not actually doing it.
好的，我来帮你翻译成中文：
是的，我在每次采访中描述的方式是这样的：就像有人被要求负责某项任务一样，这真的很有效。让一个人负责，是推动事情发展的有力杠杆。另一个就是策略选择的概念。我非常喜欢这个短语，我忘了，克莱尔说得太对了，太好了。因为整个概念是你需要决定不做什么。一个完整的策略很大一部分是关于我们不做什么。是的，没错。如果你没有做出痛苦的选择，那你其实就没有真正实施策略。
And this idea of three goals. So is that just like, so do you go into a company and just like go through a checklist essentially if here's the six things I look at to tell me if you what where there's opportunity to improve? When I work with founders and I see their goals, what I do, I use it as a way to get to know the business and I'm just going to be like literally like what is this? Like what are you trying to explain? And I can usually through, you know, asking a lot of really dumb questions, which like I said, one of my superpowers, get them to explain to me, you know, the one sentence and the one number that they're actually trying to get across, but it takes work.
这个“三个目标”的概念是什么意思呢？是不是说进入一家公司时，基本上可以通过一个清单，查看我关注的六个方面来判断是否有改进的机会？当我与创始人合作并看到他们的目标时，我会利用这些目标来了解公司。我就像是在问，“这是什么？你想传达什么？” 通过问很多“看似愚蠢”的问题——这是我的某种“超能力”——让他们对我解释清楚，用一句话和一个数字来传达他们的核心意图，但这确实需要一些努力。
And that's part of, you know, it's almost like easier to write the hundred lines spreadsheet than it is to say, wait, what are the three drivers of this business genuinely? Like what are they? And how do they relate to each other? And, you know, there can be things underneath them, but there's three at the top that matter. So yeah, it's not a, I'm not like a scientific person about it, but a lot of it is just by asking people to explain their businesses to me, you can basically find the drivers. And the story about Facebook having these same three goals for five years, considering their success, you may think they're not as complicated as your business, but I am confident they are just as if not more complicated.
翻译如下：
这就是其中的一部分，你知道，有时候写一百行的电子表格比真正去思考这个业务的三个驱动因素是什么要容易得多。就像是，这些驱动因素到底是什么？它们之间是如何关联的？当然，可能在这些驱动因素之下还有其他的因素，但最重要的就是那三个。所以我在这方面并不是从科学的角度来分析，很多时候只是让人们给我解释他们的业务，这样基本上就能找出驱动因素。关于 Facebook 的故事，他们在五年里一直有相同的三个目标，考虑到他们的成功，你可能会认为他们的业务没有你的复杂，但我确信实际上他们的业务一样甚至更加复杂。
They're marketplace, social network, they're at business, just they're like, there's a lot going on. And if they can work with the regals, you can do that too. And to your point, it needs, like if it's not hurting, then you're doing something wrong. Yeah, I love how this is very much what I wanted this chat to be. It feels like every little segment is like it's own, could be its own podcast where we can talk about this for hours. So I'm really excited how this is going.
他们是市场平台，也是社交网络，他们在做生意，可以说，他们有很多事情在进行中。如果他们能与规则合作，那么你也可以做到。正如你所说，如果不努力，就说明你做错了。我很喜欢这次聊天的主题，每个小部分都像是一个独立的播客，可以让我们讨论好几个小时。所以，我对这次对话的发展感到非常兴奋。
Kind of moving on to another topic. You have not necessarily rules, but rules of thumb that you find really helpful for people to have in their head as they're dealing with change and scale and growth and all that kind of stuff. So let's just walk through that. Yeah, so for leaders that are leading through change and growth, like I the list is probably long, but I always say to people, don't come to me for like management 101. I'm not the person to ask them like how to run the most effective 101 that with your people, what I think is not talked about enough is what it takes to manage and lead through change.
转到另一个话题。虽然不是严格的规则，但有一些经验法则对人们在应对变化、扩大规模和增长等方面非常有帮助。我们来讨论一下这些。对于那些在变化和增长中引领团队的领导者来说，可能有很多经验法则，但我总是告诉大家，不要来找我学习管理基础知识。我不是教人们如何展开最有效的基础管理课程的人。我认为关于如何在变化中进行管理和领导的讨论还远远不够。
And that is a very particular set of feelings. And the first thing I learned when someone makes you a manager or when you take a job as a leader inside a company, you really do feel like, oh, like who gave me this job? And you sort of feel like you're supposed to know the answer to things. People come to you and ask questions and you're like, I'm supposed to know, right? I'm a leader. I am supposed to have answers. And I think particularly inside a rapid change and scale and growth, it's really important to understand that your job as a manager and a leader is not to have all the answers. It is not to have all the answers. It is to get good at finding them. It is to get good at bringing people together to find the answers.
这是一种非常特别的感受。当你被任命为经理或在公司里担任领导职位时，你会感到有些不敢相信，心想，"是谁给我这个工作的？" 你会觉得自己应该知道所有问题的答案。人们来找你问问题，你就想，我应该知道答案，对吧？毕竟我是个领导，我应该有答案。但我认为，尤其在公司快速变化、扩张和增长的环境中，理解这一点尤其重要：作为经理和领导者，你的职责不是拥有所有的答案，而是善于找到答案。你需要擅长于通过协作找出解决方案。
And that is hard because it requires saying, I don't know, let's go figure it out a whole bunch. And it's scary as a leader to say, I don't know because you think, oh gosh, people are going to see through me. But again, the more you travel in life, the more you realize that the most experienced leaders are the ones that say, I don't know, all the time. I think this is a good reminder of this Bob Demonstrer concept because hearing this, okay, I don't need to have all the answers as a leader. In real life, being in a meeting, people are like, hey, Molly, what do you think of this? Like, oh, shit, I should have a good answer.
翻译成中文：这很难，因为这要求我们多次说“我不知道，让我们一起找出答案。” 作为一个领导者，说“我不知道”是令人害怕的，因为你会想，天哪，人们会看穿我。但是，随着你在生活中的历程越多，你会越意识到那些经验丰富的领导者经常说“我不知道。” 我认为这是对鲍勃·德莫斯特（Bob Demonstrer）理念的很好提醒，因为听到这个，我明白作为领导者，我不需要对所有问题都有答案。在现实生活中，在会议上，人们会问：“嘿，莫莉，你怎么看这个？”我心里想：“哦，天啊，我应该有一个好的答案。”
And so I think that's a good reminder of this idea of this Bob Demonstrer is going to tell you, oh, you don't know anything. You're not ready for this. You suck at this, you're going to fail everyone. They're regretting hiring you. Yeah, exactly. Everyone's going to see through you in posture, in posture, in posture. Yeah. Just remembering there's going to be this part of your head. And that's okay. It's there, but it doesn't have to. And these things are muscles, you know, like dealing with Bob is a muscle right learning to like not react to all those things that attack you.
这段话提醒我们，内心常会出现一个声音，就像“Bob示例者”这样的角色，它会告诉你：“哦，你什么都不懂，你没有准备好，你不擅长这个，你会失败的，大家会后悔雇用你。”没错，大家会看穿你的伪装。然而，要记住，这个声音只是一种内心的杂音，这是很正常的存在，但不必要听从。处理这种内心的否定声音就像锻炼肌肉，你需要学会不对这些自我攻击的话做出反应。
But also learning like, oh, in this moment, when someone asks me a question and I'm like, actually, I should be like, but I don't actually know. Let's go. Who should we ask? Like, how can we learn this? How can we explore this together? What do you think? Like, those are all actually very powerful questions. And they're terrifying, you know, to particularly earlier in your career as a leader and a manager. Awesome. So yeah. So there's less than there's no one expect you to have all the answers as a leader.
但也在学习，比如，在某个时刻，当有人问我一个问题时，我可能心想，实际上我应该这样，但我实际上并不知道答案。我们应该去找谁问呢？我们如何才能一起学习和探索这个问题？你觉得怎么样？这些都是非常有力量的问题。特别是在你作为领导者和管理者的职业生涯初期，它们可能会让人感到畏惧。然而，这很棒，因为这意味着没有人期望你作为领导者拥有所有答案。
No. And it's particularly in this world, right? The one that's changing as fast as it is. Like, nobody, nobody knows, you know, nobody knows what the answers are in a lot of cases. The war will be won by the people that are good exploring and figuring it out. What that phrase? So the second one is and everyone that has learned this has learned it the hard way. Do not promise things that you can't control, right? It's so tempting.
不行。尤其是在这个快速变化的世界中，是不是？很多情况下，没有人，真的没有人知道确切的答案。那些善于探索和解决问题的人才会在这场“战争”中胜出。还有一句话，每个学到了这一点的人都是通过艰难的方式学到的：不要承诺你无法控制的事情，这真的很诱人。
Like, particularly when you're hiring people to be like, oh, yeah, like, your onboarding will be smooth and calm and everything's clear. And like, we've figured it out. Let us tell you our vision and how obvious and clear and smart and blah blah. And then they show up and it's like, oh, shit, you know what I mean? Like, there's no manual. No one knows what they're doing. It's all ambiguity and chaos, right? It's so easy when someone says, I want to know that I'm going to be your CMO forever to be like, sure, you can be my CMO. You don't know that. Do you know what I mean?
在招聘员工时，通常我们会告诉他们入职会很顺利，一切都很清晰明确，我们已经规划好了。我们会向你展示我们的愿景，以及我们的想法是多么明显、清晰和聪明等等。然而，当他们真正开始工作时，却发现实际情况是完全不同的：没有指导手册，没人知道自己该做什么，全都是模糊和混乱的，对吧？当有人说，"我想知道我会永远成为你的首席营销官"时，很容易就回答说，"当然，你可以成为我的首席营销官。"但实际上，我们并不知道未来会怎样。你明白我的意思吧？
So being really careful with promises of things that are out of your control, like stability or titles or never hiring over someone is like a flashing red light because there is literally no faster way to demoralize high performers than going back on a promise, right? You, everyone that has been through it knows that feeling of like, they told me this when I joined. And then they don't do it and you're like, well, fuck this place. You know, so no faster way to demoralize people or to hire the wrong people than promising things that are actually out of your control. Being honest and upfront about who you are as a company about what you're able to promise, like all of that is actually it's very hard work, but it's so important because so much is out of your control.
所以在承诺那些不在你控制范围内的事情时要非常小心，比如说稳定性、职位或者不会直接晋升他人，因为食言是最快让高绩效员工感到失望的方法。经历过这种情况的人都知道那种感觉：他们在我加入时承诺了这些，但后来又没有兑现，于是你就会想“去他的吧”。这样不仅会打击员工士气，还可能招到不合适的人。所以，坦诚和直率地介绍公司的情况以及你能够承诺的内容，虽然非常困难，但却极为重要，因为很多事情不是你可以控制的。
And you need to hire people that are cool with that. Love that. Such a, I learned this to a hard way once. I had one of my early projects. I, we were late and had a product was just so pissed. He's like, because I've been telling the CEO it's going to be on time because you've been telling me it's going to be on time. And then it wasn't. And why didn't you tell me that? And he's, and I was just like, okay, it'll never happen again. And he's like, you can't, don't tell me that because that's not true.
你需要招聘那些能够接受这种情况的人。我非常喜欢这点。我曾经通过一次艰难的经历学到了这个经验。我有一个早期的项目，当时我们进度落后，让产品负责人很生气。他说：“我一直告诉CEO项目会按时完成，因为你一直告诉我会按时完成。结果却不是这样。为什么你不早点告诉我呢？”我当时只好说，“好吧，这种情况不会再发生了。”结果他说：“你别这么说，因为这不是真的。”
That may not, you can't guarantee that. And so that taught me that lesson of just like, yeah, you're right. Like you want to say that. Like it's feel so good. Okay, this will never happen again. But you just, you can't, and they know they know you can't promise things like that. Yeah. And yeah, sorry, I'm going to co-clair. He's Johnson again. But she has this really fun phrase that she's set in a topic. We've loved that I've now latched on to and stolen from her, which is she was like promises like that are like letter bombs that you mail yourself that are going to explode in your face in like a year. And I was thinking that's the perfect metaphor. It's because it's like short term pain, right? Like you want to make this person feel good right now. So you like promise them something. But in one year, you're going to make them feel terrible. So don't do it. Great advice. All right. Keep going.
不能那样做，你无法保证那样的结果。这教会了我一个道理：你是对的。就像你很想说“这样的事情不会再发生了”，那样说感觉很好，但实际上你无法承诺这样的事情，别人也知道你不能。抱歉，我又要引用克莱尔·约翰逊的话了。她有一个关于这个话题的有趣表达，我非常喜欢，现在也在用，她说这样的承诺就像是寄给自己的信件炸弹，会在一年后炸得你措手不及。我觉得这是个完美的比喻。这就像短期的痛苦，即为了让对方现在感觉好一些，你向他们许下承诺，但一年后，你会让他们感到非常糟糕。所以，不要那样做。这是很好的建议。继续吧。
Yeah. And so again, I could probably go on the like topic of what it takes to manage and lead forever inside this stuff. But I'll give you two more that I yell about a lot in glue club. The first is that we spent huge amounts of time talking about hiring. Like how do you get going at hiring? Like who like, how do I, who it's the right interview? How do I find the right people? Firing people is as important as hiring people. Getting good at identifying when someone does not belong or someone is not going to work out is actually a skill. And being good at it as a company and as a leader is as important as identifying the right talent. Because eventually, if you're not good at firing people, what you have is essentially barnacles on a ship. Really going for it with the ship metaphor.
好的。所以我可能可以无限地讨论如何管理和领导这个话题。但我在“胶水俱乐部”里常常大声强调的还有两点。首先，我们花费大量时间讨论招聘。比如，如何有效招聘？如何找到合适的候选人？选对面试人选很重要。而解雇员工和招聘同样重要。能准确识别一个员工不适合此岗位或无法胜任工作其实是一种技能。作为公司和领导，擅长解雇不合适的员工和识别合适的人才同样重要。否则，员工就像船上的附着物一样，会拖慢公司的发展。船的比喻运用得很到位。
Anyway, so like, the you know, it's drag people that are sitting around not sort of pushing the team forward. So it's painful and it's horrible because it is humans, right? But but when someone doesn't fit, you act, no one is right all the time when it comes to hiring. I actually say most people are wrong half the time. Like the best people in the world at hiring will tell you they have about a 50% average in terms of being right. That means half the hires don't work out. That means half the time you're going to need to fire the person. So it is it's such an important skill to get good at particularly when you're going through a lot of change.
无论如何，那些坐在那里不推动团队前进的人，实际上是在拖后腿。这是痛苦和糟糕的，因为毕竟是人嘛。但当有人不适合时，必须有所行动。在招聘方面，没有人总是正确。我实际上会说，大多数人在一半的情况下是错的。即使是世界上最擅长招聘的人也会告诉你，他们大约有50%的正确率。这意味着有一半的招聘不成功，也就是说一半的时间你可能需要解雇这个人。因此，特别是在经历很多变化时，掌握这一技能是非常重要的。
And the last one is humans are messy and it's very emotional. And when you're a leader, particularly if you have any kind of any gram to you or just if you like to make people happy and you want to be liked, it can be so hard to lead teams because you get tangled in the people, right? Firing people is a painful experience reorganizing things, layering people. All these things are emotionally painful for the people and they're emotionally painful for you as a manager. But my mantra that almost always leads in the in the best direction is serve the business not the people.
最后一点是，人类是复杂而且情感丰富的。当你是一个领导者时，尤其是如果你有某种性格倾向，或者你喜欢让人们快乐并希望被喜欢，那么带领团队就会变得非常困难，因为你容易陷入与人的纠葛中，对吧？解雇员工是一个痛苦的过程，重组和调整人事也是如此。这些事情对员工来说是情感上的考验，对你作为管理者来说同样也是。但我的信条几乎总是能指引我们走向正确的方向，那就是：服务于业务，而不是个人。
Meaning everyone is better off if this company is wildly successful. Everyone looks smart and you know makes lots of money or whatever if this company grows and does what we all dream it can. So at the end of the day, the best decisions, the ones that are always going to be right are the ones that are like, how do we make that? How do we do the right thing for this business? And it also helps in political situations, right? Like someone's acting weird or their Bob is raging all over the the company like technically everyone has the same goal. The goal is to build the biggest business possible. That's the answer. The answer is always like, what's the right thing for the business?
这意味着如果这家公司非常成功，所有人都会受益。每个人看起来都很聪明，并且如果这家公司发展壮大，实现我们所有人的梦想，大家都会赚很多钱或者实现其他目标。所以归根结底，最好的决策就是那些始终为这家公司的利益着想的决策。这也在政治环境中有帮助，例如当有人行为怪异或者某人的情绪在公司里爆发时，实际上每个人都有相同的目标。目标就是建立尽可能大的企业。答案始终是：什么才对公司的发展最有利？
And the people stuff can fall away when you actually focus on like, what's the right thing for the business? A really useful tool to do that that I learned from my manager is to think about when you're trying to decide whether to fire someone or change a project even though it's going to upset someone is to say, okay, if there were no emotions involved, if this person had no negative reaction to this, what would I do? Totally. And then that's the thing you should do and then you just do it. And then the question is how do I communicate this to them where they're least, you know, their pain is lowest essentially. In the kindest way possible.
当你真正专注于什么是对公司最合适的事情时，人与人之间的问题就可以暂时放在一边。我从经理那里学到一个很有用的方法，就是在决定是否解雇某人或者更改一个项目，即使这可能会让某些人不高兴时，去想一下：如果情绪不参与，如果这个人对这件事没有负面反应，我会怎么做？完全按照这个思路去做就好。然后，你需要思考的是如何以最温和的方式向他们传达这个决定，从而尽量减轻他们的痛苦。
In the kindest way possible. And because to your point, if you optimize for the other thing, if making people feel good, like everything just falls apart, like everything, they're going to suffer even more. Yeah, absolutely. Direct is kind. And it, you know, it feels kind or really honestly easy to avoid these things or to work around them or to not. But at the end of the day, it's basically just a drag, right? The barnacle saying like it drags on your company, on your time, on your energy, etc.
以最善意的方式来说，正如你所提到的，如果你把重点放在其他事情上，比如让人们感觉良好，一切都会变得混乱，他们可能会遭受更大的痛苦。没错，直接就是一种善意。有时候，回避问题、绕道而行看似更容易、更温和，但从长远来看，这实际上是个累赘，对你的公司、时间和精力都是一种拖累。
Yeah, but again, very hard to do in real life to do the thing that's hard and makes, you know, cause someone to be sad and upset and frustrated and maybe it's so hard. And all these things are muscles, you know, you get better at it. They don't become easy. It's not like anybody's like, oh, it's so like I enjoy firing people. No, but you recognize it faster and you are like, oh, I'm going to need to go do this, you know, and that is actually it's a practice and something that you need to practice to sort of become the kind of leader that leads these like long and during companies.
是的，但在现实生活中，做一些困难的事情确实非常不容易，特别是当这些事情可能会导致别人感到伤心、生气和沮丧时。而这些能力就像肌肉一样，你通过锻炼可以变得更加胜任。虽然它们不会变得轻松，也没有人会说他们喜欢解雇别人，但你会更快地意识到这些困难，并知道自己需要去面对。这实际上是一种需要不断练习的能力，以成为那种能够领导长期持续发展的企业的领导者。
Yeah. And this tool of thinking, asking, what would I do if there were no emotions involved in this person wouldn't be upset? It helps you like realize, okay, I see this actually doesn't make sense to just do it the easy way right now because it doesn't make sense. Yeah, it strips away, strips away the emotions. Simply also wanted to make sure we spend a little time on as you have another tidbit along these lines, which is around putting your most year energy into hyperformers versus spending all your time people that need help talking about that. You know, as a leader, as a manager, like you're running these teams and someone's struggling.
是的，这种思维方式很有帮助，即问问自己：如果不涉及情绪，这个人也不会不高兴的话，我会怎么做？它帮助你意识到，确实，现在简单的方法可能并不合理。通过去除情绪因素，让你看得更加清晰。我还想花点时间讨论另一点，就是在高绩效员工身上投入更多精力，而不是把所有时间都花在需要帮助的人身上。作为领导者或管理者，当你在管理团队时，有人可能会遇到困难。
And it's very easy to get drag into that and to sort of end up spending a huge amount of energy on it, but hyperformers are actually the future of your company. And if you think about it and if you've spent time on it, those are the folks where if you invest your time and energy in them, you're going to get the sort of like 10 extra turn that people talk about all the time in Silicon Valley. But what I witnessed is that most people have like a hyperformer and they just like leave them alone. They're like that person's doing well. So I'm just going to let them do their thing.
这很容易让人卷入其中，最终耗费大量精力，但高绩效者实际上是公司未来的关键。如果你仔细思考并投入时间和精力在他们身上，他们会为公司带来常被硅谷人提起的十倍回报。不过，我观察到大多数人对待高绩效者的方式是放任不管，认为他们做得很好，所以就让他们自由发挥。
And what I do when I have a hyperformer, that's like my favorite thing in the world is invest time and energy in them and basically build a whole system of working with them that is designed to kind of draw out potential. And I would say there's two things here. One is it's really important to realize that like our tendency is to actually spend time on low performers and it is not a good use of your time. See the point about firing people. But the other thing is that actively investing in and developing hyperformers is something that's important to get good at as a leader.
当我遇到表现极其优秀的人时，我最喜欢做的事情就是投入时间和精力培养他们，并为他们建立一个工作体系，以发掘他们的潜力。我想强调两点：首先，我们常常倾向于把时间花在那些表现不佳的人身上，但这样做不利于时间的有效利用，对于那些不胜任的人，应该考虑果断行动。其次，作为一个领导者，善于积极投资和培养优秀人才是非常重要的能力。
Because that is how you kind of create these little rocket ships that end up, you know, you'll manage someone who's just like a project manager and all of a sudden they're running a whole function inside the company eventually. But it's because you took time and energy to invest in them. And my basic way of doing that, not to like I could go I could spend a long time on this, but I would just say is I run experiments. I basically develop a theory about someone. I think this person is capable of this kind of thing. And then piece by piece, it doesn't have to be like a whole job or whole project.
因为这就是你如何创造出一个个“小火箭”，结果，你会发现，原本只是一个项目经理的人，最终却负责起公司内部的整个职能。这是因为你花时间和精力去培养他们。我的基本做法是进行实验，我会对某个人形成一个理论，比如我认为这个人有能力做到某件事。接下来，我一步一步地验证这个理论，这不一定要是一整份工作或一个完整的项目。
You can just be like, you know, an incremental experiment. I'm going to see if they can do this without, you know, with less guidance or support from me. I'm going to give them a bigger project. I'm going to give them something with more visibility. I'm going to manage them less, oversee them less, whatever. All of those are experiments to basically test your theory and deepen your theory in terms of like this person's potential and their ability to help the company. And you're basically for me, what I'm doing is kind of deeply getting to know that person and then trying to pair them with company needs.
你可以把它看作是一个逐步的实验。比如说，我想看看他们在缺少指导和支持的情况下能否完成任务。我决定给他们一个更大的项目，或者一个更有影响力的任务。我会减少对他们的管理，少干预等等。这些都是用来测试和加深你对这个人潜力和他们帮助公司能力的理解的实验。对于我来说，这样做的目的基本上是深入了解那个人，然后尝试将他们的能力与公司的需求相匹配。
What do we need? Where, where do we kind of like, you know, this person's graded Z-performing, where do we need Z-performing, you know? So like, how do I get them working on bigger and bigger and more and more critical things? And to be honest, this is what people have done for me. Like, you know, at Facebook in particular, I benefited from people being like, oh, like come help me with this thing. They saw potential in me and they asked me to help with something. And it unlocked a huge amount for me.
我们需要什么？在哪里？我们在某个地方看到这个人的表现达到了Z等级，我们需要在什么地方获得这样的Z表现呢？所以，我该怎么让他们开始参与更大、更重要的任务呢？老实说，这就是别人对我所做的事情。比如在Facebook，很多人看到我的潜力，会邀请我去帮助完成某项任务。这为我打开了许多机会。
And so it is such a powerful tool for getting more out of people that might be a little bit stuck if you leave them in this box. But if you start to expand the box, you can see you can really unlock people. Okay. So speaking of high performers, you've worked with many very high performing founder CEOs. You worked really closely with Zuck, with Cheryl Sandberg, with Larry and Sergey Google, with Brett Taylor, who I just like, just like you try to read his resume. It's like, it takes like three lines of things he's done over the course of his career.
这一工具非常强大，可以充分发掘那些可能有些停滞不前的人的潜力。如果你把他们限制在某个框框里，他们可能会被困住，但如果你开始扩展这框框的界限，你就可以真正激发他们的潜能。说到高绩效者，你与许多高效能的创始CEO紧密合作过。 你曾与扎克伯格、谢丽尔·桑德伯格、谷歌的拉里和谢尔盖以及布雷特·泰勒一起工作。布雷特·泰勒的履历非常丰富，光是尝试阅读他的履历，就需要好几行文字来列出他职业生涯中的成就。
And so I just want to spend a little time on what are some things you've learned? Like maybe a few things you've learned from them, that group that you find yourself sharing with other people most. That list is very long, but I'll give you a couple. The first one that I think is kind of counterintuitive is, so I said I worked at Facebook. I worked on culture, which is one of those words that doesn't really mean anything. So I define it as sort of like the way that the way we do things around here. And I thought my job was to like shape the culture. I thought it was to like push the culture. And the most humbling lesson I learned is 80% of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder.
所以，我想花点时间谈谈你学到了什么。比如从那一群人中，你学到的一些事情是你常常会与他人分享的。这个清单非常长，我给你举几个例子。首先，我觉得有点反直觉的一点是，我曾在Facebook工作，负责公司文化。公司文化这个词通常不是很明确，所以我把它定义为我们在这里处理事情的方式。我以为我的工作是去塑造和推动公司文化。但让我感到谦卑的一个重要教训是，公司的文化有80%实际上是由创始人的性格决定的。
Like Facebook is Mark. Google is Larry and Sergey. Like Google, when I was there, felt like it felt like a university. It's where ideas are more important in a lot of ways than what's shipped. And it's like, there's a campus. And they basically want to be people live there when I was there. It was designed to basically be a two PhD students paradise. Facebook felt like 19 year old hacker's dorm room when I was there. And it was shipping above all all else. And it just we it's seeped with Mark's DNA. And I spent ages trying to create various changes inside the company or trying to kind of push a point.
像 Facebook 之于马克，Google 之于拉里和谢尔盖。在我工作的那段时间，Google 给人的感觉就像一所大学。那里更看重的是创意，而不是产品的发布。公司就像一个校园，他们基本上希望员工在那里生活。当时的设计理念就是让这个地方成为两个博士生的天堂。而 Facebook 给人的感觉像是一个 19 岁黑客的宿舍，优先考虑的是快速发布产品。公司里充满了马克的个人风格。我花了大量时间尝试在公司内部推动各种变革或提出想法。
And Mark would say like literally one thing in an all hands. And it was like somebody threw a boulder into the pond. So our job as operators or as leaders around founders is to help articulate the culture that they're creating and help you know extend it. My version of founder mode, which I know you spend some time on on this podcast is your job is to build a company that would make a decision the way the founder would when they're not in the room. Right? That is the work of building a company around a founder. But your job is not to shape culture. That is mostly defined by the literal personality strengths and weaknesses of the person at the top.
马克在全体会议上通常只说一句话，但效果就像有人在湖里投下了一块巨石。因此，作为运营者或领导者，我们的任务是帮助创始人阐述并延续他们正在塑造的企业文化。我对创始人模式的理解是——你需要建立一个公司，在创始人不在时，能够按照他们的方式做出决策。这就是围绕创始人建设公司的工作。但你的任务不是塑造文化，因为文化主要取决于高层领导者的个性优劣。
And that's in true of Mark. And it's been true of Brett everywhere. I go that's who it is. You don't need a consulting firm to tell you just go do a personality diagnosis on your founder. And the weakest thing is real. You know, like I've seen I've seen and watched friends like try to ship a set of values at a company where and it just doesn't match who the founder is. You say move fast and break things or whatever your version of that is and your founder loves ambiguity and is perfectly happy with not making decisions. All that leads to is cultural dissonance.
这在马克身上是如此，对于布雷特来说也一直如此。在任何地方，我都会意识到这点。你不需要咨询公司来告诉你该怎么做，只需对你的创始人做性格诊断就行了。最薄弱的环节是真实的。我见过朋友们试图在公司推行一套价值观，但那根本不符合创始人的个性。比如说公司倡导"快速行动，高效创新"（或其他类似的口号），但创始人却喜欢模棱两可，不急于做决策。这样只会导致文化脱节。
You know, it leads to people being like, wait, what? I thought we said, you know, we care about moving fast and making aggressive decisions and it turns out, you know, so being really careful about what you say because what people actually feel when it comes to culture is what you do and how you act every day. That is you can never write anything down and you will still have a culture. It will be created through the actions and the decisions that you make and that your founder makes. So that would be a huge one. Let me spend a little more time on this because this is so good. So all this advice on culture and it feels so true based on everything I've seen.
你知道吗，这会让人们感到困惑：“等一下，什么？我记得我们说过，我们注重快速行动和做出果断决定，但结果却不尽然。” 所以要非常注意自己说的话，因为当涉及到公司文化时，人们真正感受到的是你每天的行为和行动。即使你从未把它写下来，你依然会有一种文化，它是通过你以及你们的创始人的行动和决策创造出来的。这一点非常重要。让我多花一点时间谈谈这个，因为从我所见过的一切来看，这些关于文化的建议真的非常有道理。
So tip one there is just you can't really change the culture. Maybe there's like a little bit on the edges. You could adjust it will come down and trickle down from the founder, CEO probably mostly but just the founders in general. Then CEO founder CEO is probably the single biggest co-founders. It depends a lot on the company. Awesome. I think Stripe is probably very much like Patrick and John, but it's not every co-founder that has that level of power. Awesome. And then the way you just scrap culture, I think it's the way South Goatin talks about it too, who's also been on the podcast. How cool is that?
提示一：你其实无法真正改变一个公司的文化。也许你能在一些边缘进行微调，但整体文化主要是由创始人和CEO决定的，特别是创始人。CEO和创始人在决定公司文化方面的影响力是最大的，但这也因公司而异。比如，Stripe的文化很大程度上反映了Patrick和John的个性，但并非所有的创始人都具备这样的影响力。同时，有人形容文化的方式和南·戈丁谈论文化的方式类似，他也上过这个播客。是不是很酷？
He said cultures and what you said, cultures the way we do things around here. That's what culture is. Just like that's how people describe your cultures the way we do things around here. I ran culture whatever the whole that means. Facebook for a second. I literally haven't done a values exercise since. And it sounds crazy, right? Because like in theory, I know how to do this stuff. I don't really know how to do this stuff. But for me, the point is process and systems and how do we make decisions? That's where culture actually lives.
他说，文化就是我们在这里做事的方式。这就是文化的定义。就像人们描述你的文化时会说，这是我们在这里做事的方式。我暂时接手过文化管理，虽然不知道那具体意味着什么。我很久没有进行过价值观评估的练习。这听起来很疯狂，对吧？因为理论上，我知道该怎么做这些事情。但实际上，我并不真的知道怎么做。但对我来说，重点在于过程和系统，以及我们如何做决策。文化实际上就存在于这些地方。
It is what you do. It's how you hire. It's how you fire. It's who you don't hire. It's all of those decisions. That is culture. So whenever I'm working with a company or building a company, that's what I'm focused on. Not on what's the shiny word that we're putting on the wall. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the way you're describing it as you said, it's what you do. It's not what you say. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Keep going.
这就是你的行为。这是你如何招聘、如何解雇、以及你不聘用什么样的人。所有这些决策共同构成了文化。所以每当我与一家公司合作或建立一家公司时，我关注的就是这些，而不是那些我们挂在墙上的漂亮词句。你懂我的意思吧？对。所以正如你所描述的，这就是你所做的，而不是你所说的。太好了，继续吧。
Okay. Okay. I'll give you two more that are helpful. This one is marked with a word classic. But he has this very strong feeling that people don't escalate enough. And he was like very adamant about it at Facebook. And he brought it to CZI too, where he was like, escalation is a tool. And he's a people get stuck. You know, they get stuck with two people with equal power, trying to solve a problem. You can spend so much time bashing heads, going back and forth.
好的，好吧。我再给你提供两个有用的例子。这个例子被标注为经典。他对此有一个非常强烈的感觉，那就是人们不够重视升级问题的重要性。在 Facebook 工作时，他对此非常坚决，并将这种态度带到了 CZI。他认为，升级是一个工具。因为人们常常会陷入僵局，尤其是当两个人权力相等时，他们试图解决一个问题就容易陷入一种左右为难的状态。你可能会花费大量时间在争论和来回拉锯上。
And actually what you just need to do is go up, right? You need to go. The problem is that we think of escalation as like, I'm A and B and I are disagreeing. And so I'm going to go up to C and tell on B, right? Like, I'm going to go tattle to the teacher. That is not what escalation is. What escalation is, is we disagree. Neither one of us has enough power to make this decision. Let's go to someone who does my boss, my boss's boss. Whoever it is.
其实，你只需要做的就是向上寻求帮助，对吗？你需要去找更高层的人。问题在于，我们常常把“升级”理解成我和B有分歧，于是我要去向C告状，就像去告诉老师一样。但真正的“升级”并不是这样。所谓“升级”是指我们意见不合，而我们双方都没有足够的权力做出这个决定，那就去找一个有决策权的人，比如我的上司，或者更高层的上司。
As soon as you are stuck, escalate, go together, go make your case to whoever it is, go together up. That is unlocking, right? It's saving you a whole bunch of time. And it's something that I've found as I've worked with companies and leaders in glue club. Like, it's not a muscle that's very comfortable for people, but it's so smart. And you know, Mark has a lot of these, but like that one I really took away because again,
一旦你遇到问题，就应该立即升级，去找可以帮助解决的人，一起去争取支持。这就是解决问题的方法，对吧？这样做可以节省大量时间。在我与公司和领导们合作的过程中，我发现这种做法不是人们习惯采用的方式，但确实非常明智。马克有很多这样的建议，但这一条让我印象深刻，因为......
I think so many people think of escalation as bad, like a failure. Like, I failed. So I had to escalate. No, it's a tool. It's what management is for. Like they're there to unblock you. Let them unblock you. Stop like arguing over something you can't decide. And they'll be so happy knowing you did not waste a week debating this and then just arguing and just looking at data. It's like, okay, I can just tell you exactly what we should do.
我认为很多人把升级视为一件坏事，好像是失败了。我失败了，所以我不得不升级处理。其实不然，升级是一种工具，是管理的职责所在。他们存在的意义就是帮助你解决问题。让他们帮你解决问题吧。别再为一些你自己决定不了的事情争论不休。他们会很高兴知道你没有浪费一周的时间来争论和查数据。他们可以直接告诉你该怎么做。
Let's go do that. Exactly. You lack context or you lack power. And then the last one actually is from Cheryl Sandberg who I learned an enormous amount from. Huge. It was like going to business school without going to business school working with her. But I say it a lot right now. So I'm going to say it on your podcast. So maybe some people will hear me. Growing more than 100% every year is a bad idea. 100% the happiest growth rate is 50%.
让我们去做吧。没错。你要么缺乏背景信息，要么缺乏力量。最后一个观点其实是我从谢丽尔·桑德伯格身上学到的，我从她那里学到了很多东西，真的受益匪浅。与她共事就像上了没有上学的商业课。我现在经常说这句话，所以我也想在你的播客中提到，也许有些人会听到我说。每年增长超过100%不是个好主意。最合适的增长率是50%。
100% is manageable. Anything more than doubling and you are signing yourself up for a world of pain. And I have seen this over and over and over again. I had to scream way louder about it five years ago than I do now because we've been through collectively a lot of pain and a lot of layoffs. And obviously this the combination of like 2021 and then AI has led us to sort of talk about unit economics and scaling with tools not people.
100% 的增幅是可以应对的。但如果增幅超过一倍，你就会给自己带来巨大的困难。我已经一次又一次地见证了这一点。五年前，我必须更加大声疾呼，因为我们经历了很多痛苦和大量的裁员。显然，2021 年的情况加上人工智能的发展，促使我们开始讨论如何通过工具而不是人力来实现规模化和提升单位经济效益。
But I still see companies and I'm still talking to founders that are like, yeah, we're going to 50 people. We're going to be 150 people next year. And I'm like, could you possibly do that with 100 people? You know, but here's a basically happens if you grow it more than 100%, which is you're growing too fast to de-dupe all the issues. So like you somebody post this role, it actually turns out that that role is also being hired for on this other team.
我仍然看到一些公司，并且与一些创始人交流，他们常说：“是的，我们的人数要增加到50人啦。明年我们要达到150人。” 而我会想，你们能不能用100个人来实现这些目标呢？因为如果增长超过100%，通常会发生这种情况：你的发展速度太快，以至于无法合理解决所有问题。比如，有人发布了一个招聘职位，结果发现另外一个团队也在招聘同样的职位。
So you're having two people who more or less have the same job description or assigned to the same number or the same problem, but nobody talked to each other. And those two people will show up and they're like, I am doing this. And then a person's like, wait, I thought I was doing that. Anyway, so then you've got all this can think about all the time and all the energy and all the money that goes into de-duping that. If you slow down, if you hire for quality and for real need versus sort of the panic hiring, whatever your sales model spits out or whatever, you'll actually find leverage.
所以，你有两个工作描述基本相同的人，或者被分配到同一个项目或问题，但却没有彼此沟通过。这两个人可能会出现，然后互相说：“我在做这个。” 另一个人会惊讶地说：“等一下，我以为这是我在做的事情。” 结果，你得花费大量的时间、精力和金钱来解决重复的问题。如果你放慢脚步，根据实际需要和质量进行招聘，而不是因为紧急情况盲目招聘，你会发现工作效率更高。
You find, oh, I didn't need that person or I didn't need this whole team or I didn't need this whole function or I can wait for that. So slow down. And again, these are all just guidelines in terms of like the 50% is happy and 100% is manageable, but like having seen enough of this, I can tell you like these are good rules and you should pay attention to them.
你会发现，哦，我不需要那个人，或是我不需要这整个团队，亦或这个整个职能部门，或者这些事我可以再等等。所以放慢脚步。再说一次，这些只是一些指导原则，比如说把事情做到50%让人满意，而做到100%则是可控的。但经过我的观察，我可以告诉你，这些是很好的经验法则，你应该多加留意。
And sometimes you're like, I have to double or I have to more than double or I have to triple or whatever. I'm like, okay, just ask a whole lot of questions as you open roles. Ask a whole lot of questions as you hire because you will find duplication. You will find chaos coming in the front door. More people does not actually make you faster. Do you know what I mean? We think it does. It does not. It makes it harder.
有时候，你可能会想：“我需要翻倍，甚至更多，或者三倍增长，或者其他。” 我会说：“好的，那就多问一些问题，当你招聘的时候，多问一些问题。” 这样做是因为你会发现有些职位是重复的，也会发现混乱从一开始就涌入。 增加人手并不会真正让你变得更快。 你懂我的意思吗？我们以为人越多效率越高，其实并不是。相反，人越多，问题可能会变得更复杂。
It makes it harder to get work done. It makes it slower. So you should be scared of adding people not like, well, this is the answer to all my problems. Amazing. And just to be clear, you're talking about the growth of the company. So doubling in a year, bad idea. Like it's possible, but you're saying it's going to be very hard and painful and probably a really bad idea. Yeah, more than doubling. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Please feel free to do whatever you want with your business. Just advice. This is top of mind because I just had the interview with Matt McGinnis, but so much of what he talked about is this resonates with what you're talking about. He talked a lot about under resourcing your team totally leads to much better outcomes because people don't work on the lurch already stuff. They focus on only hyper already stuff. And the other is this idea of escalating. He talked a lot about that. Just like escalation is good. Tell me when there's something I can help with. Please, I'm here waiting constantly to help. Yeah. 100%.
这让工作变得更难完成，效率变得更低。所以，你应该对增加人手感到担忧，而不是认为这样就能解决所有问题。这是个很糟糕的念头。要澄清的是，我们在谈论公司的成长。如果公司在一年内员工翻倍，这是个糟糕的主意。虽然可能实现，但你会发现这是个非常困难且痛苦的过程，可能最终是个错误的决定。是的，超过翻倍就更是如此。这些仅供参考，请根据你的业务情况自由决定。这让我想起刚刚与马特·麦金尼斯的采访，他提到的很多内容与此共鸣。他谈到过度节约资源其实可能带来更好的结果，因为这样团队成员不会分心于微不足道的事情，而是专注于最重要的工作。同时，他还提到了升级的概念，这意味着沟通时及时寻求帮助是好的。他强调如果有我能帮忙的地方，请尽管告诉我。我一直在等待随时提供帮助。完全同意。
Yeah. Amazing. So maybe for a final question, one of your former colleagues, Eric Antenau, who's just like this epic dude that few people know about that I've chatted with over the last few months because he knows so many people that come on this podcast. He's a former Facebook person out of open AI. He asked him of what I should ask you about. And he told me something really insightful about you. He said that you had this really massive growth spurt at Facebook, which you shared and talked about. And then after you're leaving, you had this like huge ambition to become COO, CO become this huge big deal boss person just like take over the world. And then he noticed your ambitions significantly pivot to kind of working on community building and helping people with their careers. And you turn down really big sea level role opportunities.
好的。太棒了。也许作为最后一个问题，我想提到你的一位前同事，Eric Antenau。他是一个非常了不起的人，虽然为人所知不多，但在过去的几个月里，我和他聊过，因为他认识许多来上这个播客的人。他曾在Facebook工作，后来加入了OpenAI。我问他我应该问你什么问题，然后他告诉了我一个很有见地的信息。他说你在Facebook有过一次非常大的成长飞跃，并且对此有过分享和讨论。之后，离开Facebook后，你有一个巨大的野心，想成为COO或者CEO，成为一个举足轻重的领导者，统治一切。然而，他注意到你的志向有了显著的转变，转向了社区建设和帮助他人发展职业方面的工作。你甚至拒绝了一些很重要的高管职位机会。
And the way he described is you were a dog that once thought you were cat. And the other metaphor is you change from AC current to DC current, which I don't exactly what that means. But so this is resonate. And if so, just what happened there? Eric is actually better at metaphors than I am. And I regularly rip his metaphors. But yes, Eric, Eric Antenau, the least well known, but most brilliant person in my life. Yeah. So somebody I gave a talk at a company recently and somebody asked the question, what's something you've changed your mind about? And I was like, woof. But I actually talked about this because so I'm my brain is like developing this model that is not done yet. But it's basically this idea that like everybody has sort of a proving phase to their career where you're like proving to yourself and probably to your parents and some other people that you're like good at stuff. You're like, I'm I'm going to prove, you know, and it's an important phase because you're you need to learn, you know, all the stuff we talked about, you need to learn what you're good at. You need to learn that you are good at things and that people should hire you for things and what are those things.
他描述的方式是，你曾经是一只以为自己是猫的狗。另一个比喻是，你从交流电（AC）变成了直流电（DC），关于这个我不太明白具体意思。不过，这个比喻在某种程度上让我产生了共鸣。艾瑞克其实比我更擅长用比喻，我经常借用他的比喻。艾瑞克·安特诺，他是我生命中虽然知名度最低但最有才华的人之一。
最近我在一家公司做演讲时，有人问我，有什么观点是我改变过的吗？我当时心里有点忐忑，但还是谈起了这个话题。我的脑海中正在形成一个尚未完成的模型，不过这个想法基本上是关于每个人在职业生涯中都会有一个"证明阶段"。在这个阶段，你会向自己、可能还有父母及其他一些人证明自己在某些方面很擅长。这是一个重要的阶段，因为你需要学习各种技能，了解自己擅长什么，让别人愿意雇佣你，并弄清楚那些技能具体是什么。
But part of that phase is also kind of like doing what you think matters, like what you think you should do, you know, family programming or career books tell you this is what you should do titles and and all that stuff. And then I think everybody has a moment. And I think that's moment very wildly in terms of when it hits people where you hit some sort of ball or I don't know what it is, speed bump, something. And the world forces you to say, okay, I've proven myself. And I'm good at this thing. What do I want to do with it? You know, and for me, like I spent, you know, 10 or 15 years proving to myself and others that I was really good at this thing, you know, basically working with brilliant founders to help bring their vision to life. That's what you should hire me to do, right? That's what I was known for. And it turned out that that wasn't what I loved doing anymore.
这段经历的一部分就像是在做你认为重要的事情，比如你觉得自己应该做的事情。无论是家庭计划，还是职业书籍告诉你的那些工作头衔等等。我觉得每个人都会有那么一个时刻，而且这个时刻的到来因人而异。你可能会遇到某个瓶颈或障碍，迫使你思考，好吧，我已经证明了自己，并且在这方面很出色。那么，我接下来想要实现什么目标呢？就我而言，我花了大概10到15年的时间来向自己和他人证明我在这方面很有能力，基本上是在与优秀的创业者合作，把他们的愿景变为现实。这是你应该聘请我去做的事，对吧？这也是我曾经以此而闻名。然而，后来我发现，这不再是我热爱的事情了。
And it was really, really hard to walk away from because there was a lot of sheds. It was like, you should take this job with this fancy title. People are going to think, you're so cool. And, you know, you get to the like, I call it a LinkedIn crash where you're like, really excited to post the job on LinkedIn, but you're deeply on excited about doing the job. So you have all these LinkedIn crushes and you're like, um, and I sort of vividly remember this one job that I turned down where I had to go for many walks. And what I was repeating over and over again to myself was, what does this get you that you don't already have? What does this get you that you don't already have? And I think for me, it was this realization that these things that fed me early in my career just didn't feed me anymore, that I didn't get joy and excitement out of, you know, doing these jobs anymore.
当时真的很难放弃，因为有很多诱惑。那工作带有一个很有吸引力的头衔，似乎人人都会觉得我很酷。你知道的，那种在 LinkedIn 上发布工作动态时的兴奋感，但对实际的工作却丝毫不感兴趣。这种 LinkedIn 上的兴奋与现实工作的落差让我对这些工作感到困惑。
我清楚地记得拒绝过的一个工作机会，那时我常常出去散步，不断地对自己重复一个问题：这份工作能带给你什么是你现在没有的？这份工作能带给你什么是你现在没有的？对我来说，这种反思让我意识到，早期在事业上激励我的那些东西，现在已经无法再带给我快乐和兴奋。我不再从这些工作中获得满足感。
And I wasn't scared. So it led me to actually, on a very long, windy journey, a founder journey, even though I have trouble with that title, just like the influencer title, to figure out what I wanted to build. And, you know, what I would have told you I wanted to build three years ago is actually not what I'm doing today. But through a lot of really fun experiments and a journey that never ends, what I've discovered is that what I love doing is building safe spaces for leaders to learn and grow. But also to find sanity and connection in a world that's kind of insane, whether it's, you know, working in a startup or some other kind of insanity. But that feeds me, and there's nothing I love more than that.
我并不害怕。这让我走上了一条漫长而曲折的创业之路，尽管对“创始人”这个头衔，我和“网红”这个头衔一样感到不自在，开始探索我想去创造什么。你知道，三年前我对你说我想要做的事情，其实和我今天正在做的事情并不一样。但通过许多非常有趣的实验和一个永无止境的旅程，我发现我热衷的事情是为领导者构建安全的学习和成长空间。同时，在这个有些疯狂的世界中，无论是创业过程中的疯狂还是其他方面的疯狂，我热爱为人们找到理智和联系的途径。这让我充满动力，没有什么比这更让我热爱。
And I could not have told you that three years ago, but it was to Eric's point. It really took a lot of work to switch currents or switch myself from a dog to a cat or whatever his metaphor is. And I think it's, you know, it's the work of, it's ongoing work. But it's that thing of like, what do I want versus what do I think people expect of me? There's so much depth there that this could be another entire podcast conversation talking through this journey. But I'm going to close with a note from your partner Sarah.
三年前我无法告诉你这一点，但埃里克提到的确实很有道理。要想从一种状态转变到另一种，比如从"狗"变成"猫"或是他其他的比喻，确实需要付出大量努力。我认为这是一个持续进行的工作。关键在于，我到底想要什么，而不是我认为别人对我有什么期望。这其中有太多值得探讨的深度，甚至可以成为另一个播客的完整话题来讨论这一历程。但我想用你伴侣Sarah的一段话来结束。
She told me that she has this sticker on her notebook with three pieces of advice that you gave her when she started at OpenAI. Get to know your customer. They have the answer. Be patient because everything is going to change and just keep trying. So just as a final question, is there anything along those lines that you think might be helpful for people to hear? Or is there anything else you want to share? Leave listeners with. Part of what I think is so important to realize inside of scaling and changing companies and, you know, the world is like, some things will always be true. And part of what I was saying to Sarah in the like, get to know the customer, they have the answer is like, whatever bullshit is going on around you and whatever walls and ceiling are being rearranged, you know, this week, the customer is never going to change.
她告诉我，她在笔记本上贴了一个贴纸，上面是你给她在OpenAI工作时的三条建议。了解你的客户。他们有答案。要有耐心，因为一切都会改变，只要不断尝试。 作为最后一个问题，您是否有类似的建议觉得对大家有帮助？或者是否还有其他想分享的内容？我认为，在公司扩展和变革中，有些事情永远不会改变。这也是我对Sarah说的：了解客户，他们有答案。不管周围发生了什么混乱，不管本周墙壁和天花板如何被重组，客户始终是不会改变的。
That's a thing that will never change. And I think finding those like, immovable objects, those compasses in the face of a storm, you know, which being inside of a scaling company and then startup, like feels like a tornado, you know, and I think OpenAI is extra special on that front. You have to find these guiding lights that get you through that storm. And I think it's sort of the same thing as like, serve the business, not the people. Like, what are the things that will always be true? We are here to do this. We are here to do, you know, we are here to serve the customer.
有些事情是永远不会改变的。我认为，在快速发展的公司和初创企业中，我们需要寻找那些坚不可摧的定海神针。这种经历就像置身于龙卷风中心，而在这方面，OpenAI显得格外特别。我们必须找到能够指引我们通过风暴的灯塔。我认为，这与“服务于公司，不是服务于个人”有着类似的意义。就是找出那些始终如一的真理：我们在这里是为了做什么。我们在这里是为了服务客户。
And then the other piece of the sort of like, of the three things that she wrote down is like, I think that we as humans, we seek stability, you know, like our brains, like, would like things to stop changing. We would like things to stay the same. And that is just not a reality inside of companies that are growing and changing as fast as OpenAI or, you know, a lot of the companies today that are being built. So actually, you need to start to expect instability. You need to start to like, just assume things are going to change.
她写下的三件事中的另一件是这样的：我认为，作为人类，我们总是追求稳定。我们的大脑希望事情不要再变化，期待一切保持不变。然而，对于像OpenAI这样快速发展和变化的公司来说，这并不现实。其实，你需要开始适应不稳定性，开始假设事情会不断变化。
Assume you're going to have a new boss in six months, right? I talk about this a lot when I talk to folks that have AI, like, you need to stop expecting that anything is going to be the same in six months or a year. Like, you will have a different job. You will have a different boss. How do you prepare for that? Do you know what I mean? How do you almost see the instability as stability? Because it's the only thing that is definitely going to be true.
假设你在六个月后会有一个新老板，对吧？我常常和有人工智能的人谈论这个话题，你需要停止期待六个月或一年后事情会保持不变。比如说，你会有一份不同的工作，你会有一个不同的老板。你如何为此做准备？你懂我的意思吗？你如何把这种不稳定性视为一种稳定性呢？因为这是唯一可以确定会发生的事情。
And part of that is to just keep going, you know, what I mean to just find these lights and these compasses or whatever metaphor sticks with you and focus on those because whatever is happening around you, like, you just got to keep moving forward and keep learning as much as you can. Because that's the real opportunity. Like, whatever happens to the company, however successful it is, like, all that you take away from it, I always say all that you take away from it is people that like working with you and want to work with you again and what you learned. That's it.
这其中的一部分就是不断前行，你知道我的意思，就是去找到那些指引你的“灯塔”和“罗盘”，或者任何适合你的比喻，然后专注于这些，因为不管周围发生了什么，你都要继续向前走，并尽可能多地学习。这才是真正的机会。不管公司发生了什么，无论它多么成功，我总是说，你从中能得到的就是那些喜欢和你合作并愿意再次合作的人，以及你所学到的东西。就这些。
You might hopefully take a bunch of money, but you might not. So, like, people and what you learned, that's it. Focus on that. It's all about the friends you made along the way. That's the way that old line is true. Oh, man. Molly, I feel like we've gone for so long and we've just scratched the surface. I'd love to have you back to go deep run a lot of this stuff. I'm going to skip the lightning round because we've gone long and I want to keep people from having to listen to more.
你可能赚到一大笔钱，但也可能不会。所以，要专注于你认识的人和学到的东西。这一切都关乎你在旅途中结交的朋友。这句老话是真的。天哪，Molly，我感觉我们已经聊了很久，但其实只是触及到了表面。我很想让你回来，深入探讨这些话题。我会跳过闪电问答环节，因为我们聊得很久了，我想避免让大家听太多。
So I'm just going to end with what are what should people know about what you're working on, working people go find you online and how can listeners be useful to you? You can find me on LinkedIn, and you can find me on some stack. I have a sub stack called Lessons that I'm slowly trying to turn into a community where we can talk about things, the real stuff.
那么我最后想说的是，人们应该了解你在做什么，他们可以在哪里找到你，以及听众如何对你有所帮助？你可以在LinkedIn上找到我，也可以在Substack上找到我。我有一个叫做“Lessons”的Substack，我正在慢慢把它变成一个可以交流真实话题的社区。
And you can find me a glue club, which if you're a leader inside of one of these crazy companies that's changing all the time, we can be a great home for you. What's the URL there just for folks to check out? It's glue club.com. Glue GLUE. GLUE. CLUB.com. Great. Yeah, exactly.
你可以找到一个名为“Glue Club”的地方，如果你是这些不断变化的极具活力的公司中的领导者，这里会是你的一个理想之家。网址是glueclub.com，就是GLUE.CLUB.com。好的，没错。
And in terms of people, what people can do to be useful to me, I love helping people, helping leaders with problems. Like I really get a lot of energy out of unsticking people and helping people feel supported and seen and helping them grow. I do that through glue club.
关于人们如何对我有用，我非常喜欢帮助他人，尤其是帮助领导者解决问题。我从帮助人们摆脱困境、让他们感受到支持和被看见中获得了很多动力，并且帮助他们成长。我通过一个叫“黏合俱乐部”的方式来实现这一点。
So if you're a leader that feels like you want some sanity and some support in the face of whatever tornado you're in, that's a great place to come. But the same is true of substacks. So if glue club isn't for you, like come on over to substack. I've opened up a bunch of channels to just like talk about stuff, listen to people's problems, answer questions because I love helping people.
所以，如果你是一位感到需要在混乱中保持理智并寻找支持的领导者，这个地方会很适合你。但同样的，Substack也是如此。所以，如果Glue Club不适合你，可以来Substack。我开设了许多渠道，只是想聊聊天，倾听大家的问题，解答疑问，因为我热衷于帮助他人。
And I think it's a complicated moment right now to be a leader and to figure out which way is up. So coming over. Amazing. Molly, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Lenny. This is really fun. Bye everyone.
我认为现在是个复杂的时刻，当领导者很不容易，要弄清楚方向。所以过来吧。太好了。Molly，非常感谢你的到来。谢谢你，Lenny。这真的很有趣。再见，大家。
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非常感谢您的收听。如果您觉得这期节目有价值，可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或您喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这能够帮助其他听众更容易地找到这个播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com. See you in the next episode.
你可以在 Lenny's podcast.com 上找到所有过往的节目或了解更多关于该节目的信息。期待在下一集见到你。