#484 – Dan Houser: GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Rockstar, Absurd & Future of Gaming
发布时间 2025-10-31 20:53:37 来源
The following is a conversation with Dan Hauser, a legendary video game creator, co-founder of Rockstar Games, and the creative force behind Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption series, which includes some of the best-selling games of all time and some of the greatest games of all time. Both Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 have some of the deepest, most complex and heart-wrenching characters and storylines ever created in video games. Dan has started a new company, absurd ventures, great name, that is creating some incredible new worlds in multiple forms, including books, comic books, audio series, and yes, video games. That includes a better paradise, which is a dystopian near future world with a super intelligent AI, American Caper, which is an insanely chaotic, violent, dark, satirical world, and absurdiverse, which is a comedic action-adventure world. I'm excited to explore all three of these.
以下是与Dan Hauser的对话，他是一位传奇的视频游戏创作者，Rockstar Games的联合创始人，也是《侠盗猎车手》和《荒野大镖客》系列背后的创意力量，其中包括一些有史以来最畅销和最伟大的游戏。《荒野大镖客》1和2都有一些电子游戏中最深刻、最复杂和最动人的角色和剧情。Dan创立了一家新公司，名叫"Absurd Ventures"（名字很棒），正在创造一些令人难以置信的新世界，这些世界以多种形式呈现，包括书籍、漫画、有声系列，当然还有视频游戏。其中包括"Better Paradise"，一个拥有超级智能AI的未来反乌托邦世界；"American Caper"，一个极度混乱、暴力、黑色讽刺的世界；以及"Absurdiverse"，一个喜剧动作冒险的世界。我非常期待探索这三个世界。
I have spent hundreds of hours in worlds that Dan has helped create, so this conversation was an incredible honor for me, and on top of that, Dan and I talked a lot after and in the day since, and he has been just a wonderful human being. I'm just at a loss of words. I feel like the luckiest kid in the world.
我花了数百小时在Dan帮助创造的世界里，所以这次谈话对我来说是一次非常大的荣幸。除此之外，自从那次谈话后，我和Dan又聊了很多，他一直是个很好的人。我真不知道该怎么形容自己的感觉。我觉得自己像是世界上最幸运的孩子。
And now a quick few second mentionary sponsor, check them out in the description, or at lexfremor.com slash sponsors. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got a lot of amazing sponsors. I haven't been due to many podcasts, so please, please go support all of these sponsors. They're stuff organizing your documents, they're stuff for your office, they're stuff for your health. Please go support them. To be specific, we got box for company wide content organization, uplift desk for my favorite office desks, code rabbit for AI-powered code review, mirror for brainstorming ideas with your team, Lindy for AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and element for electrolytes. Choose wisely, my friends, or choose all of them.
现在简单提一下我们的赞助商，详细信息请查看描述，或者访问 lexfremor.com/sponsors。这是支持我们播客的最佳方式。我们有很多优秀的赞助商。由于我没有录制很多播客，所以请务必支持所有这些赞助商。他们提供文件整理的工具、办公产品和健康相关的服务。请支持他们。具体来说，我们有 box 提供公司范围的内容管理，uplift desk 提供我最喜欢的办公桌，code rabbit 提供 AI 驱动的代码审核，mirror 用于团队头脑风暴，Lindy 提供 AI 智能助手，Shopify 用于在线销售，以及 element 提供电解质产品。朋友们，谨慎选择，或者全部选择。
And now, onto the full addres, I try to make it interesting, but if you skip, please still check out the sponsors, like I said, I'm not doing many podcasts, so your support with these sponsors is really helpful. And I think you'll enjoy it. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too, to get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfremor.com slash contact. Alright, let's go.
现在，进入完整的演讲部分，我会尽量让它有趣一些，但如果你跳过了，请一定查看我们的赞助商。正如我所说，我并没有做很多播客，所以你们对赞助商的支持对我很有帮助。我想你们会喜欢这些内容，我自己挺喜欢的，也许你们也会。若有任何原因需要联系我，请访问 lexfremor.com/contact。好了，我们开始吧。
This episode is brought to you by a new sponsor, Box. You probably know of them. It's a cloud-based platform for content management, file sharing, and collaboration for businesses. But the thing in particular I would like to talk about is how they're using AI. Their box AI is an industry leading content management platform. They do an incredible job of taking a large number of unstructured documents. So think like contracts, like legal documents, invoices, financial documents, resumes, and so on. Take all of that and be able to query it and automate workflows with those documents and build agents on top of those documents. Box in general has a long track record of working with businesses and organizing large amounts of documents.
本集由我们的新赞助商 Box 支持。你可能已经听说过他们。Box 是一个基于云的内容管理、文件共享和协作平台，专为企业设计。但我特别想谈的是他们如何使用人工智能。Box 的人工智能是业界领先的内容管理平台。他们在处理大量非结构化文档方面表现出色，比如合同、法律文档、发票、财务文档、简历等等。他们能有效查询这些文档，自动化相关工作流程，并在此基础上构建智能代理。总的来说，Box 在帮助企业组织和管理大量文档方面具有丰富的经验。
And now, building on that track record, they're using AI to manage and organize those documents in a way that makes them accessible. And you could do all kinds of extractions, ask questions, derive insights. And obviously do all of that in a secure way and a compliant way. And it is why over 115,000 enterprises trust Box. If you want to help scale AI across your organization, go today to box.com slash AI that's box.com slash AI to learn more.
现在，基于这个良好的业绩记录，他们正在利用人工智能来管理和组织这些文档，使其更易于访问。你可以进行各种信息提取、提问和洞察分析。而且，显然所有这些操作都是在安全和合规的方式下进行的。这就是为什么有超过115,000家企业信任Box。如果您希望在您的组织中推广AI应用，请访问box.com/AI了解更多信息。
This episode is also brought to you a sponsor that always brings a smile to my face because I have been sitting behind the product they create for many years. Uplift desk. I have so many of them. I think they're self-replicating at this point. They're having children on top of each other. I really don't know why I have that many. It's just purely out of love. I have never had a negative experience with anything related to Uplift. This is long, long, long before their response. I can't frankly believe their response or go by all of their stuff.
这一集同样由一个总能让我微笑的赞助商带来，因为我多年来一直使用他们创造的产品。这个赞助商是Uplift desk。我拥有很多它们，以至于我觉得它们好像在自我复制，甚至自己繁衍后代。我真的不知道为什么会有那么多，只能说这是出于纯粹的喜爱。我从来没有在使用Uplift的任何产品时遇到过负面体验。这是在他们成为我的赞助商很久很久之前的事情了。我真的不敢相信他们的表现，或者说他们所有的产品都让我非常满意。
They create obviously incredible standing desks. There's a bunch of other stuff, you know, chairs and all kinds of ergonomic solutions. But really the variety, the qualities all there. It's also an awesome my main desk for basic computer work. It's my main desk for robotics work. It's my main desk for everything. Go to upliftdesk.com slash Lex. Use code Lex to get four free accessories, free same day shipping, free returns, a 15 year warranty and an extra discount off your entire order. That's upliftdsk.com slash Lex.
他们制作了非常出色的升降桌。此外，还有很多其他的产品，比如椅子和各种符合人体工学的解决方案。所有产品的种类和质量都很出色。这也是我进行基本电脑工作时的主要桌子，也是我进行机器人工作时的主要桌子，实际上是我做所有事的主要桌子。访问upliftdesk.com/lex，使用代码Lex可以获得四个免费配件、免费当天送达、免费退货、15年保修以及整个订单的额外折扣。网址是upliftdesk.com/lex。
This episode was also brought to you by a new sponsor, an awesome new sponsor called Code Rabbit. It's a platform that provides AI powered code reviews directly within your terminal, making sure that you get to production ready code as quickly as possible. Go grab a CLI integrates really nicely into existing CLI coding agent workflows. It serves as a backstop for tricky hallucinations and logical errors that AI coding agents at times can generate. It supports all programming languages that you can think of: JavaScript, TypeScript, Python, Java, C-Sharp, C++, Ruby, Rust, Go, PHP and much more. Super nice terminal native experience. It does a really nice job of handing off their view contacts to your AI coding agent. It does a really nice job of understanding the full context of complicated project dependencies. The fixes are easy. One click that applies the review suggestions instantly with all manual code changes.
本集节目由我们的新赞助商Code Rabbit赞助。Code Rabbit是一个非常棒的新平台，它在你的终端内提供AI驱动的代码审查，帮助你更快地编写出可投产的代码。只需获取一个CLI，即可完美集成到现有的CLI编码代理工作流中。它能够有效防止AI编码代理有时会产生的复杂逻辑错误和幻觉。它支持所有你能想到的编程语言，如JavaScript、TypeScript、Python、Java、C#、C++、Ruby、Rust、Go、PHP等，提供超级棒的终端原生体验。Code Rabbit能够很好地将审查上下文传递给你的AI编码代理，并且理解复杂项目依赖关系的整体背景。修复也非常简单，只需一键就能应用审查建议，更改所有手动代码。
It has a pretty good free tier for individual developers, which means you could try it out. I see for yourself how incredible it really is. Go install coderabbit CLI today at coderabbit.ai slash lux. That's coderabbit.ai slash lux. This episode is also brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative platform. We talk extensively in this episode with Dan Hauser about his writing process. And boy, it's a torturous journey as everybody that goes through the ideation process in any kind of context, whether it's in writing and design and programming, all of that. It's a difficult and painful process. It's full of procrastination, all the different human blockers that Stephen Pressfield writes about in his excellent book.
它有一个非常不错的免费层，适合个人开发者，这意味着你可以尝试一下。自己去看一下它到底有多棒。今天就去coderabbit.ai/lux下载Coderabbit命令行工具吧。这个节目还由Miro赞助，Miro是一个在线协作平台。在这一集中，我们和Dan Hauser深入探讨了他的写作过程。天哪，这真是一个痛苦的旅程，因为任何人，在任何背景下经历构思过程，无论是写作、设计还是编程，都会面临这一点。这是一个艰难而痛苦的过程，充满拖延和Stephen Pressfield在他那本优秀的书中写到的各种人类障碍。
A lot of times it really is about having the right tools to make sure when the ideas come from wherever it is and the ethereal realm that the ideas do come from, that they have the right kind of workflows and mechanisms to pour out of your mind and out of your soul. And to do so in a collaborative way and collaborative environment. So Miro is an incredible tool for doing just that. All kinds of ways of doing ideation together, sticking out screenshots, diagrams, prototypes, all that you can create, you can share, you can collaborate on. It makes the whole process fun. Help your teams get great things done with Miro. So to Miro.com and find out how that's M-I-R-O.com.
很多时候，关键在于拥有合适的工具，确保当想法从各种来源、甚至虚无缥缈的领域涌现时，我们能够通过合适的流程和机制，将这些想法表达出来，从头脑和灵魂倾泻而出。并且是在一个合作的方式和环境中实现这些。Miro 就是一个非常棒的工具，可以帮助实现这一点。它提供各种方式进行集体构思，能粘贴截图、绘制图表、构建原型，所有这些你都可以创建、分享、协作。这样让整个过程变得有趣。使用 Miro 帮助你的团队取得丰硕成果。访问 Miro.com，了解更多信息，网址是 M-I-R-O.com。
This episode is also brought to you by Lindy, a platform that helps you build multiple AI agents in minutes. They're basically pushing the cutting edge of generating the full stack, including front end, back end databases and all the integrations. So this isn't just about generating code in a specific narrow context. It's about deploying a fully tested digital business. And they very much focus on generating stuff that works, which is not a trivial thing when you are generating the full stack. They're calling it the Lindy build, which goes from the original idea to the working app end to end. I mean, this is a really difficult problem to solve and an impactful one. So I'm glad that great companies like Lindy are pushing the state of the art in this.
本集节目也由Lindy赞助。Lindy是一个平台，可以在几分钟内帮助你构建多个AI代理。他们基本上正推动生成全栈技术的前沿，包括前端、后端数据库以及所有集成。这不仅仅是在特定狭窄的背景下生成代码，而是关于部署经过全面测试的数字业务。他们非常注重生成能够正常工作的东西，而这在生成全栈时并不是一件简单的事。他们称之为Lindy构建，从最初的想法到实际运作的应用程序，都是一条龙服务。解决这个问题非常困难，但也非常有影响力。所以，我很高兴像Lindy这样优秀的公司正在推动这一领域的最前沿发展。
Sign up at Lindy.ai slash Lex to get two weeks free plus 50% off of pro plan for a year. That's Lindy.ai slash Lex. This episode is also brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store. She's also the platform that demonstrates the magic and the power of Ruby on rails. Shows that it can scale. And it is also a platform whose CEO is both still an engineer and a philosopher and obviously a business guy. Go listen to the DHH episode where he celebrates Toby on both the engineering and the human side.
在 Lindy.ai/lex 注册，即可获得两周的免费试用，并享受专业计划全年五折优惠。网址是 Lindy.ai/lex。本集节目还由 Shopify 赞助，这是一个为任何人设计的销售平台，支持创建一个优秀的在线商店。Shopify 展示了 Rails 的神奇和强大，并证明了其可扩展性。Shopify 的 CEO 兼具工程师、哲学家和商人的身份。可以收听 DHH 的一期节目，在那里他从工程和人性角度赞美 Toby。
But anyway, enough about humans. Let's talk about the tooling. Shopify is a tool and it's a tool that has thousands of integrations and allows you to ship an online store and sell a bunch of stuff and very little effort. Even I was able to do it at lexframing.com slash store to sell a few shirts. I should probably add more shirts because shirts are cool. I'm currently as I record this and wearing a super cool pink Floyd shirt. Don't know where I got it, but it was certainly a Shopify store.
不过，总之，关于人类的话题就到此为止吧。我们来说说工具。Shopify是一个工具，这个工具拥有成千上万的集成，能让你轻松创建一个在线商店并销售各种商品。我甚至也能做到这点，比如我在lexframing.com/store上卖了一些T恤。我可能应该再添加一些T恤，因为T恤真的很酷。我录音时，正穿着一件超级酷的平克·佛洛伊德（Pink Floyd）T恤，不记得是在哪里买的，但肯定是从某个Shopify商店买的。
Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash Lex. That's all lower case. Got a Shopify.com slash Lex to take your business to the next level today. And finally friends, thank you for thinking with me today. This episode is brought to you by element, an old friend, a companion, a comrade, if you will. That I'm sipping on right now, even though I'm speaking these words to you in Boston, in a hotel room, not really sure where I am in this too big world in this too short life, trying to figure it all out.
在 Shopify.com/lex 注册，享受每月只需 1 美元的试用期。请注意，所有字母都是小写。访问 Shopify.com/lex，立即将您的业务提升到一个新的水平。最后，朋友们，感谢你们今天和我一起思考。这个节目由 Element 赞助，它是我的老朋友、伴侣，可以说是战友。我正在畅饮它，即使我现在在波士顿的一个酒店房间里对您说话，在这个过于宽广的世界里，在这短暂的生命中，我并不太确定自己身在何处，努力弄清楚一切。
You can't human rub on interaction with the human oys and quadrupeds enjoying life, enjoying the brief escape to the realm of ideas, into the realm of math and rigor and code, into the process of exploring the unknown. It is the thing that makes me truly happy. It is one of the things that makes me happy. And one of the things that makes me happy and healthy is making sure I get enough electrolytes, giving that I'm still doing one meal a day, giving all the crazy fasting I do and the physical exercise and the mental toll of working crazy hours and sometimes not getting enough sleep. All of that, I just feel better when I get the electrolytes in.
你无法用人与人之间的互动、享受生活的人类玩具和四足动物来替代探索未知领域、研究数学、严格性和编码所带来的乐趣。这些事情让我真正感到快乐。这是让我快乐的事情之一。而确保我摄入足够的电解质也是让我快乐和健康的重要因素之一，因为我仍然坚持一天只吃一餐，同时也在进行一些疯狂的断食以及身体锻炼，加上长时间工作的精神压力和有时睡眠不足。所有这些情况下，当我摄入足够的电解质时，我感觉更好。
So get a free account sample pack with any purchase, try it, drink element dot com slash lex. This is the Lex treatment podcast that supported. Please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback and so on. And now dear friends, here's Dan Hauser. You've helped create some of the most incredible characters, stories and open worlds in video game history.
因此，购买任何商品都可以获得一份免费账户样品包，请访问drinkeletment.com/lex试用一下。这是Lex Treatment播客的支持内容。请查看描述中的赞助商信息，您还可以在那里找到联系方式、提问、反馈等链接。现在，亲爱的朋友们，这位是Dan Hauser。您帮助创造了电子游戏历史上一些最令人难以置信的角色、故事和开放世界。
But when you grow up in the late summaries and 80s open world video games wasn't a thing. So you've credited literature and film as early inspiration. So let's talk about film first, if you can. Sure. What are your some of the candidates for the greatest films of all time? Maybe films that were highly influential on you? I mean, Godfather. God, well, I think for me, probably Godfather two, more than Godfather one, but I love both of them. So I love the divided story in Godfather too.
但是，如果你是在20世纪80年代末长大的，那时开放世界电子游戏还不存在。因此，你把文学和电影视为早期的灵感来源。那么我们先来聊聊电影吧。好的。在你心中有哪些堪称有史以来最伟大的电影，或者对你影响深远的电影？比如《教父》。天啊，我觉得对我来说，可能《教父2》比《教父1》更有影响，但我两个都很喜欢。我很喜欢《教父2》中分段叙事的方式。
And as a migrant, I used to live in Soho. I love the bits in little Italy. And I love the sections in Sicily. So I think and the bit of Ellis Island is just one of the best shots in all cinema. When you see little Vito turning up in Ellis Island and you get that shot, it's amazing. It gives you a really good cinematic sense of what it must have been like to arrive in America. Which of the greatness of Godfather do you think is the writing? How much is the cinematography and how much is the acting? That didn't year old? You got young Pacino.
作为一名移民，我曾住在索霍区。我喜欢小意大利那一片，也喜欢西西里的部分。所以，我觉得埃利斯岛那一段是电影史上最精彩的镜头之一。当看到小维托登上埃利斯岛的那一幕时，真是令人惊叹。这给你一种非常好的电影感受，让你体会到当时抵达美国的情形。《教父》的伟大之处，你认为有多少归功于剧本、多少归功于摄影，多少归功于表演？当时你有年轻的帕西诺。
Well, Copper Rice started as a screenwriter. So I think he wrote, at least co-wrote the script. So it's almost like the writing directing almost become the same thing. It's one of those films, both of them are those films which I was thinking about. This idea of a perfect film. Where everything's good. Where the acting's seminal. Where the writing's seminal. Where the music is seminal. Where the shots are so memorable. Where the scenes define what you think about things.
Copper Rice最初是作为一名编剧开始职业生涯的。因此，我认为他至少是参与编写了这个剧本的。所以在某种程度上，编剧和导演的工作几乎融为一体。这部电影让我想到了一种完美电影的概念：每个环节都出色，表演极其出色，剧本极其出色，音乐极其出色，画面令人难以忘怀，场景能够影响你对事物的看法。
It's impossible to think about the mafia and not think about the Godfather. What about the pacing? It is a bit slow. You have movies like 2001 Space Odyssey. Slow. Yes. It used to be back in my day. It used to be slow. Life got faster. Life just got, you know, as I think as we moved from the 70s into the 80s into the 90s, people had seen so many films. They just started to edit films faster. And people understood cinematic storytelling so much that you could do things much quicker.
想到黑帮，就不可能不想到《教父》。说到节奏呢？确实有点慢。就像电影《2001太空漫游》。慢，没错。我那时候的电影就是这样的慢。后来生活变得越来越快，尤其是从70年代进入80年代再到90年代，人们看过的电影越来越多，所以剪辑速度也越来越快。观众对电影叙事的理解也提升了，所以电影节奏可以更快。
You could show a look and just that meant you realised that person was going to betray the other person. They just edited films much quicker. But I quite like the slowness. I think these days with modern, you know, high quality television, you have to have to necessarily watch these films in one sitting, particularly when you're rewatching them. So it doesn't bother me that they're long and slow. Speaking of faster, life getting faster, I'm sure another influential movie was Goodfellas Scorsese. That's faster, right?
你可以通过一个眼神表露出你意识到那个人要背叛另一个人。他们只是更快地剪辑了电影。但我其实挺喜欢那种缓慢节奏。我觉得现在有了现代的高质量电视，你并不需要一次性看完这些电影，特别是在重看的时候。所以它们长且慢并不会困扰我。说到更快，我确信另一部有影响力的电影是斯科塞斯的《好家伙》吧。那才是节奏快，对吧？
Yes. A mixture of crime and humor. And almost like an open world game in some ways, in that it's this slice of life, you see, you know, I think that probably changed cinema, the sort of tale into the 80s, early 90s, more than any other film. And it's so iconic. In some ways, I prefer casino, but the invention is really in Goodfellas. I love the end of Casino. You know, they've used to voice over the way you saw them being criminals and being normal people.
是的，这部电影是一种犯罪和幽默的混合体。在某些方面，它就像一款开放世界游戏，因为它展现了生活的一面。你知道，我认为这部电影可能比其他任何电影都更多地改变了八九十年代初的电影行业。这部电影非常具有标志性。在某种程度上，我更喜欢《赌城风云》，但《好家伙》中真有创意。我尤其喜欢《赌城风云》的结尾。他们通过旁白的方式展示了角色既是罪犯又是普通人的一面。
You know, it changed everything. I mean, the sopranos, obviously, is completely inspired by Goodfellas. Yeah. Casino has, first of all, the character of Sharon Stone. I mean, everything. The look, the clothes, the music. I would say one of the most memorable moments in film for me is the meeting in the desert means just the drama building up to that. They're getting on the whole.
你知道吗，这确实改变了一切。我是说，《黑道家族》显然是完全受《好家伙》启发而来的。而且，《赌城风云》，首先是莎朗·斯通饰演的角色，无论是造型、服装还是音乐，都让人印象深刻。对我来说，电影中最难忘的时刻之一就是沙漠中的那场会面，戏剧张力逐渐升级，让人彻底投入其中。
Yeah. The environment, the city speaking of open world and creating a character from the city. It's one of the great Vegas films. I think the great Vegas film. The bits that I always, that I love at the end when everything's wrapping up. And on the one hand, you see the Robert De Niro character. He's still got it making money. So they let him return to normal life. But then you get that brilliant scene when all of the mob bosses from back home, they're discussing all these people who may or may not be able to implicate them. And then there's that incredibly cold line. And one of them, they're thinking about the old, you know, I think it's a casino management. One of them just goes, the way I see it, why take a chance. And then the next thing you just shot, right? The brutality of it all is just brilliant.
好的。这个环境，这座城市，说到开放世界和从城市创建一个角色，它是伟大的拉斯维加斯电影之一。我认为是最伟大的拉斯维加斯电影。每当电影即将结束时，我总是喜欢的那些片段。一方面，你看到罗伯特·德尼罗饰演的角色，他仍然有赚大钱的本事，所以他们允许他回归正常生活。但随后你会看到那个精彩的场景，所有从老家来的黑帮头目，他们讨论那些可能会让他们暴露的人。接着有一句特别冷酷的台词，他们在考虑一个老赌场管理人员时，其中一个人说：“依我看，何必冒险。”然后在下一刻，就看到冷酷无情的射杀。这一切的残酷真是太精彩了。
I don't know. I probably have to disagree with you on Vegas. There's at least some competitors. You got, with Nicholas Cage leaving Las Vegas, I mean, falling in love with the prostitute. You're also, you've written some of the great crime stories ever. Thank you. And in some sense, there's love stories in there. And you've talked about being a bit of a romantic yourself, appreciating the depth of love stories and literature at the very least. And there is a dark kind of love story between an alcoholic and a prostitute. You got an Oscar for that. I think you did for that, didn't you? Plus there's the caricature of the drug world of fear and loading in Las Vegas. That's an interesting one. I love the book so much. I was obsessed by it when I was about 1718. And I enjoyed the film, but I'd prefer the book.
我不知道。我可能在关于拉斯维加斯的看法上要和你持不同意见。至少有一些竞争者的存在。比如，尼古拉斯·凯奇在《远离赌城》中，他爱上了一个妓女。此外，你也写了一些极好的犯罪故事，谢谢。在某种意义上说，那些故事中也包含了爱情故事的元素。你曾表达过自己有些浪漫主义情怀，至少在文学上，你欣赏那些深刻的爱情故事。而在《远离赌城》中，有一个关于酗酒者和妓女的暗黑爱情故事。你因为它获得过奥斯卡，我觉得你是因为这个获得的，不是吗？还有描绘毒品世界的《恐惧与厌恶在拉斯维加斯》，这也是一个很有趣的作品。我非常喜欢这本书。在我17、18岁的时候，我对它痴迷不已。我喜欢这部电影，但我更偏爱这本书。
Has a hunter as Thompson type of character ever made it in ten years stories? No, but one of the things we're working on now, there's sort of an English version of Hunter S. Thompson if he was also a market gardener. I love that persona. But he's kind of, it's hard. If you make him American, it's hard for it not just to be Hunter S. Thompson. Is this an American keeper? No, it's in this animated show we're developing in the sort of comedy world we're working on called Obserterverse. And it's in one of the stories in that. What is Obserterverse? Obserterverse is a comedy universe we're developing that will be an open world video game and then some loosely adjacent stories that we're going to make as animated TV shows or possibly animated movies. We're still thinking that all through.
在十年故事中，有没有以Thompson风格为灵感的猎人角色取得成功过？没有，但我们现在正在做的事情之一是，打造一个类似Hunter S. Thompson的角色，如果他也是一个市场园丁。我很喜欢这样的角色设定。但这个角色很难处理。如果你让他是美国人，就很难不直接变成Hunter S. Thompson。他是个美国人吗？不，这是我们正在开发的一部动画节目里的角色，该节目属于我们正在开发的喜剧世界，叫做Obserterverse。那什么是Obserterverse？Obserterverse是一个我们正在开发的喜剧宇宙，它将是一款开放世界的视频游戏，还有一些我们计划制作成动画电视剧或可能的动画电影的松散相关的故事。对此我们还在思考中。
And we're building the game up in San Rafael at the moment and it's early days, but it's looking very exciting and it's trying to be like trying to make a game that feels a little bit like a living sitcom. Is there some drama and tragedy at the edges or is it pure comedy? I hope it's got comedy, cynicism, heart, drama and some amusing life lessons. Otherwise you can't just have jokes for 40 hours, it won't work. Okay, so comedy needs some darkness. Well, I think it needs story. One of my favorite comedies of this century is the office because it was incredibly funny but also because it had narrative and heart underneath the cynicism. I think with narrative you get a drive alongside jokes. And there's going to be an open world video game in that world. Yes. One, two, three, four years, still thinking that through.
我们正在圣拉斐尔开发一款游戏，目前还处于早期阶段，但它看起来非常令人兴奋，试图做成一种像“活的情景喜剧”的感觉。在边缘会有一些戏剧和悲剧，还是纯粹的喜剧？我希望它能包含喜剧、犬儒主义、温情、戏剧和一些有趣的人生教训。否则，你不能让笑话持续40个小时，这行不通。是的，喜剧需要一些黑暗元素。我认为它需要故事。我最喜欢的本世纪的喜剧之一是《办公室》，不仅因为它极其搞笑，还因为它在犬儒之中有着叙事和温情。我认为有了叙事，你才能在笑话之外得到推动力。我们将会在那个背景下制作一个开放世界的视频游戏。可能还需要一到四年的时间，我们还在思考中。
So what's the process of getting from the idea to the end of a video game? How does it take so long for you to get it right? That's an interesting question. I think if you, the scale at which they're built, you could argue it the other way. Why is it so quick? I mean, you really are building in one go a world, a city and 40 hours of entertainment cut through it. You know, these things are massive, four-dimensional mosaics that are intensely complicated and after work in lots of different ways. And I think that's us being kind of aggressive on the timeline. We're taking attention upon attention upon attention.
要从一个创意到最终完成一个电子游戏，这个过程是怎样的呢？为什么要花这么长时间才能做到最好？这是个很有意思的问题。我认为，如果考虑到建设规模，也可以反过来问：为什么这么快？实际上，你是在一次性地创造一个世界、一座城市，以及其中的40小时的娱乐内容。你知道，这些东西就像是巨大的四维拼图，非常复杂，需要从很多不同的方式来运作。而我认为，我们在时间线上其实是很有攻击性的，给予了很多的关注和细致入微的投入。
But I have to return to some films. Let me just list a few of my favorites. So first of all, you said you love great war books and movies. So we have to throw in platoon from Oliver Stone and apocalypse now for me at least. Of course. There's more crime, fast-moving crime movies like Scarface. I also love true romance. Love true romance. Possibly the best, one of the best scripts ever written. Written, of course, by Quentin Tuchino. What do you love about true romance? I think sometimes depending on the day, depending on the bar and how much alcohol I had, I will say true romance is the best movie ever made.
但我得回去谈谈一些电影。让我简单列举几个我最喜欢的电影。首先，你说你喜欢伟大的战争书籍和电影。那么，我们不得不提到奥利弗·斯通的《野战排》和《现代启示录》，至少对我而言，必须提到这些。当然，还有更多关于犯罪的、节奏快的电影，比如《疤面煞星》。我也很喜欢《真实罗曼史》。真的很喜欢《真实罗曼史》。这可能是最好的剧本之一，当然，是由昆汀·塔伦蒂诺编写的。你喜欢《真实罗曼史》的什么？我觉得有时候，这取决于那天的心情、酒吧的氛围和我喝了多少酒，我会说《真实罗曼史》是有史以来最好的电影。
Yeah, I mean, true romance is super fun. Tony Scott was a really good director. So it moves at a really good speed. It's funny. It's completely unbelievable. But you really care about the characters. It's the kind of, you know, this world that obviously doesn't exist, but you feel it does exist. The characters are larger than life. The dialogue is unbelievably. You could just sit and watch them talk all day long. And you know, you just, it's amusing. You just want to live in that world. I was thinking, you know, what do you like about films? It's the idea to be in a world. They're not real. They're not real. But you want to be in these fake worlds that people have invented.
是啊，我是说，《真实罗曼史》真的很有趣。托尼·斯科特是一位非常好的导演，所以整部电影节奏很棒。它很搞笑，虽然完全不真实，但是你真的会关心剧中的角色。这就像是一个显然不存在的世界，但你却感觉它好像真的存在。角色都非常鲜明生动，对话也非常精彩。你可以一直坐在那里看他们聊天，一整天都不会腻。你知道，这很吸引人，让人想住在那个世界。我在想，你喜欢电影的原因是什么呢？就是这个能够进入一个世界的感觉。它们不是真实的，但你就是想进入那些人们创造出来的虚构世界。
And I think you said that one makes a great world is having a large cast of characters. I think that movie is a good example. I mean, you have Christopher Walken with the sort of legendary super racist discussion. Right. And Dennis Hopper is just sort of dream dad. Yeah, dream dad. And just that interaction is legendary. You got even Brad Pitt. There's a pot head on couch. Gary Olman. Gary Olman. For Rasta. Yeah. And you have, I mean, a real love story. Like a real genuine pure love can survive in any context. And it's just sweet. Their love story is very sweet in that film. It's a daring.
我觉得你说，构建一个伟大的世界需要有很多角色。我觉得那部电影就是一个很好的例子。比如，克里斯托弗·沃肯有那段几乎传说般的超级种族主义对话。还有丹尼斯·霍珀，就像个理想中的爸爸，没错，是理想中的爸爸。他们之间的互动简直是经典。甚至布拉德·皮特也在片中，扮演了那个躺在沙发上的瘾君子，还有加里·奥尔德曼，他饰演了个拉斯塔。电影中还有一个真实的爱情故事，展示了真正纯粹的爱能够在任何环境中生存下去。而且在这部电影中，他们的爱情故事特别甜美，真是大胆而动人。
The Elvis as a character. It's kind of like a mini GTA type game. Some of the same beauty, the comedy, the love, the... Crossed with play against them. It sort of feels a bit like that with the Elvis character. What about greatest war film? What would it be for you? Greatest war film. If I'm feeling serious, it would be a Russian film called Common Sea. Which is probably the most intense film ever made. And if I'm feeling slightly less serious, apocalypse now, and I would always want to watch the original cut, I don't prefer the reedits. I like the original first release. I think it's tighter and slicker and works the best.
这段英文翻译成中文如下：
“埃尔维斯这个角色。有点像一个迷你版的GTA类型游戏。有一些相同的美感、幽默、爱情，融合在一起对抗他们。这种感觉就像跟埃尔维斯的角色搭在一起一样。那关于最伟大的战争电影呢？对你来说会是什么？我觉得最伟大的战争电影。如果我想要严肃一点，那是俄罗斯电影《来和看》，可能是有史以来最紧张的电影。如果我想轻松一点，那就是《现代启示录》，而且我总是喜欢看原版剪辑，不喜欢重新剪辑的版本。我觉得原版剪辑更紧凑、更流畅，看起来效果最好。”
Yeah, of course, Park of Snows, this hallucinatory journey into darkness, I think madness. Yeah, from the first scene onwards, it's just got these amazing set piece after set piece. And again, incredible characters. Brilliant dialogue. Some of the greatest films about war, reveal that war is not what it seems. And there's different ways of doing that. And you've talked about different books. The thin red line is another book and movie that shows that. Yeah, and I watched the movie years before I read the book. And I didn't understand the movie. And then I read the book.
当然，《雪之乐园》这部梦幻般的黑暗之旅，我认为充满了疯狂。从第一幕开始，就有一个又一个令人惊叹的场景，还有令人难忘的人物和精彩的对话。有些最伟大的战争电影揭示了战争并不是看起来的那样，这可以通过不同的方式表达。我们也谈到了几本不同的书，《细细的红线》就是另一本有同样主题的书和电影。我是在看电影多年后才读了这本书，看电影时并没有完全理解，但读了书后才明白。
And I read a lot about the editing of the movie. And I understood why I didn't understand the movie. And that's because the movie makes no sense. It is beautifully shot. And the music is one of the best film scores of all time. But they edited two different battle scenes into one battle in a way that spread apart by ages in the book to assemble. I think they filmed the book pretty much verbatim that would have been as like a six hour movie, then edited this impressionistic thing that's incredibly beautiful but doesn't necessarily make narrative sense at the end of it. But it's still very beautiful, the film.
我读了很多关于这部电影剪辑的内容，我明白了为什么我看不懂这部电影，那是因为电影本身没有逻辑。虽然它的拍摄非常精美，音乐也堪称史上最佳电影配乐之一，但他们把书中时间跨度很大的两场战斗剪辑成一个战斗场面。我觉得如果忠实地按照书本拍摄的话，这将是一部六小时的电影，然后他们剪辑成了一种印象派的效果，虽然极其美丽但从叙事上不是很合理。不过整体来看，这部电影还是非常美的。
And in terms of Westerns, what's the greatest? The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, unforgiven, those are for me. Maybe even Django on Chain. You've mentioned Butch Cassidy in the Sunday Ski. I think for me it's two films from I think pretty much the same year. Butch Cassidy and The Wild Bunch. I love Robert Redford and Rest in Peace. That film, it's just, it's impossible to imagine anybody film without Butch Cassidy. It's Paul Newman, Robert Redford and Clint Eastwood for you also. Has that impacted your writing on Red Dead?
在西部片中，哪些是最经典的？对我来说，《黄金三镖客》（The Good, the Bad, the Ugly）和《不可饶恕》（Unforgiven）肯定是其中的佼佼者，甚至可能还包括《被解救的姜戈》（Django Unchained）。你提到的《虎豹小霸王》（Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid）我也很喜欢。我认为对我来说，有两部电影几乎是同一时间上映的：《虎豹小霸王》和《野帮派》（The Wild Bunch）。我特别喜欢罗伯特·雷德福（Robert Redford），愿他安息。无法想象没有《虎豹小霸王》的影视世界。这部电影由保罗·纽曼（Paul Newman）、罗伯特·雷德福和克林特·伊斯特伍德（Clint Eastwood）主演。是否也影响了你在《荒野大镖客》上的写作？
I love unforgiven, but the truth is, with Red Dead, I'd seen a lot of Westens as a kid. My dad watched lots of Westens. They was on TV. You know, I knew, I felt I knew a lot a bit about Westens. And then, you know, then I had to start thinking about writing one for work. And I deliberately did not binge on Westens. I tried to watch No More Westens and just think about what I liked about them, what I didn't like about them, what would be a take that would work today and would work within the confines of a game.
我喜欢《不可饶恕》，但事实是，在玩《荒野大镖客》的时候，我回想起小时候看过很多西部片。我爸爸经常看西部片，电视上也会放很多。所以，我觉得自己对西部片已经非常了解了。然后，我不得不开始思考如何为工作创作一个西部片。我刻意不去大量观看西部片，而是努力不再看更多的西部片，专注于思考我喜欢和不喜欢西部片的哪些方面，以及在游戏中如何以一种适合当下的方式表现西部主题。
And I think Red Dead 1 was a slightly more traditional Western. And then having done that, tried to take Red Dead 2 in a different direction so that it felt like a worthy successor. Didn't just feel like more of the same. For movies to video games, one did your first fall in love with video games. Literature was the first love. No, films. Films. Films was always that. Well, what I loved first as a kid was films. Older began reading books properly aged about eight. Was watching films long before that.
我觉得《荒野大镖客1》更像是传统的西部片风格。而制作完这个之后，他们试图让《荒野大镖客2》走一条不同的路线，使其看起来像是一个值得期待的续作，而不仅仅是简单的重复。 从电影到电子游戏，什么时候开始喜欢上电子游戏呢？文学是我的初恋。不，是电影。电影一直是。我小时候最先爱上的就是电影。大概八岁才开始认真读书，但在这之前就已经看了很多电影。
And then probably it was always bouncing between the two which I prefer. I think they could have different things. Games, I played and above all watched a lot of games as a kid as being a young kid and you know, other people playing them. And I obviously liked the core thing games do, which is you press a button and something happens. They're responsive. they're alive. And that's captivating. And then the competitive angle of games is fun. Or you know, beating this, beating that, winning this. That was fun as well. Sometimes obsessively so. You know, I'm remembering completely addicted. At one point when I was truly been studying for months at a time to Tetris on a Game Boy, you know, I liked games. And I liked interactivity and I liked the movement to this digital world that's really emerged to me pretty much as soon as I left college. But I didn't love it.
然后，我可能总是在这两者之间摇摆不定，我更喜欢哪个。我觉得它们可以带来不同的东西。小时候，我玩了很多游戏，尤其是看别人玩游戏。我显然喜欢游戏的核心体验：按下一个按钮，就会有反应。游戏是有互动性的，是活生生的，这很吸引人。而且游戏的竞争性也很有趣，比如战胜这个、打败那个、赢得比赛，这都很有趣。有时候甚至到了痴迷的程度。我还记得当时对游戏完全上瘾，比如有一段时间，我真的花了几个月的时间在Game Boy上玩《俄罗斯方块》。我喜欢游戏，喜欢互动性，喜欢这种几乎是我大学毕业后才开始的数字世界的变迁。但我不算是热爱它。
And then I really fell in love with games when I was properly making then probably as late as like 2001. Oh wow. And then I suddenly began to see, first of all, my mind, you know, that's a whole other story, but just suddenly saw what they could do and could be and what this chance was to be one of the people involved in making these things that was this, you know, where you were really kind of breaking trail into the future it felt like. And I think that was when I really went, these were amazing. And that's when I really fell in love with, I could see it in moments and suddenly you could make this whole experience. So that was really the moment for me.
然后，我真正爱上游戏是在 2001 年左右，当时我开始认真制作游戏。哇哦。那时，我突然开始看到这些游戏可以做到什么、可以成为什么，还有参与制作这些游戏的机会，这就像是在开创未来之路。我觉得那是我真正意识到这些东西很精彩的时刻。我爱上了游戏，因为我能在瞬间看出它们的精彩，并能够创造出完整的体验。对我来说，那真的是一个特别的时刻。
Yeah, of course, because you're a pioneer of open world games that are so narrative driven. So it's like you didn't have too many examples. Yeah, and before that it was PS1 or before even before that, games looked terrible, you know, that you really like, it's eight pixels. It's a car, you know, it was not a car. It was, they just didn't, it was always, you were squinting and closing both your eyes and trying to imagine it was this thing you were told it was. And all they were about, you know, it, it, it, very surreal subject matter because you couldn't make them remotely real. And suddenly we had, we were able to build these experiences where you could run a simulation of a city.
当然，因为你是那种以叙事为主导的开放世界游戏的开创者。所以当时没有太多参考案例。在此之前是PS1，甚至更早的游戏画面很糟糕，比如只有八个像素，一辆车看起来根本不像车，你需要眯起眼睛想象它是别人告诉你的那个东西。这些游戏的主题常常非常超现实，因为根本无法做到逼真。但突然间，我们能够创建那些可以模拟城市体验的游戏了。
And it was in three dimensions and it felt alive. And we were trying to give it even more, at least the illusion of even more life. And yet you, so you could tell a story in three or, you know, using time in four dimensions. And that felt very inspiring. Yeah, I think GTA 3 is probably one of the most influential games of all time. It created a feeling of an open world. What do you think it takes to create that feeling? You know, there was like these looming skyscrapers. There was a changing traffic lights. There's the feeling like, first of all, you had a feeling you could do anything. And then the world was reacting to it in a way that didn't feel scripted.
这段文字可以翻译为：
“它是三维的，感觉就像活的一样。我们尝试让它更具有生命力，至少是营造出更有生命的错觉。通过这种方式，你可以用三维或者运用时间来讲述一个四维的故事。这让人感到非常振奋。我认为《GTA 3》可能是历史上最具影响力的游戏之一。它营造了一种开放世界的感觉。你认为如何才能创造出那种感觉呢？比如，矗立的摩天大楼、变化的交通灯，这些让人感受到，首先你会觉得自己可以做任何事，然后这个世界的反应不是程序化安排的，给人一种自然真实的感觉。”
Yes. And it wasn't scripted. It was, it was really, really, really low rent AI. Like it was a simulation that you could prod and push and see what happened. And I think that was incredibly, it was, it was two things. It was the fact that here was a simulation that you could mess about with. And the simulation seemed to have a personality. So you could push and see and the world would push you back to what in whatever way that meant. And then the other thing was just this, I think that one of the reasons it was so captivating was also the idea of if I did nothing, the world still existed. Or I could act in quite a passive way. I could just listen to the radio.
是的，这并不是提前设计好的，而是非常、非常、非常低级的人工智能。就像一个可以随意捅捅推推，看看会发生什么的模拟程序。我认为这其中有两个非常吸引人的地方。首先，这个模拟程序让你能随意操控，而且它似乎还具有某种个性。你可以推动它，然后它会以某种方式作出反应。另外，这让人着迷的原因之一就是，即使我什么都不做，这个世界仍然在运作。我甚至可以采取一种相当被动的方式，比如只听收音机。
I could look at billboards. I could talk to pedestrians and the what not in GTA 3, but by Vice City, you could begin rudimentary talking. And the world was there and existing. And so it was the idea of like almost something that really tried to explore in lots of games. The idea of being a digital tourist, you know, you were in, you were in these worlds and you went there as a visitor and they existed almost independent of you. It felt like when you turned up, the world was running. It didn't feel like you'd started it. Of course you had started it. But that feeling, I think, was one of the things, the illusions that people found very captivating was, I'm in a world that both doesn't exist and does exist.
在《GTA 3》中，我可以观看广告牌，也可以与行人交谈，但到了《罪恶都市》这款游戏，你可以开始进行一些简单的对话。而游戏中的世界仿佛真实存在。因此，这就像是在很多游戏中尝试探索的一个概念——做一名数字游客。你进入这些世界，就像是一名游客，这些世界几乎是独立于你的存在。当你进入游戏时，世界已经在运转，让人感觉不像是由你启动的。当然，事实上是你启动了游戏。但这种感觉，我认为，是让人着迷的错觉之一：我置身于一个既不存在又存在的世界中。
So there's these two concepts that I was reading about just to put names on them. One is systemic video game design. So systemic games and the other sandbox video games. And the systemic is from the environment perspective, which means that there are these interlocking game rules and systems that interact with each other and produce emergent behavior. And that emergent behavior is what creates a feeling like there's a living world.
我最近在阅读的时候了解到两个概念，给它们起了名字。一个是系统性电子游戏设计，另一个是沙盒类电子游戏。系统性游戏强调环境视角，也就是说，这类游戏中有相互连接的游戏规则和系统，它们之间可以互动，从而产生“涌现行为”（Emergent Behavior）。这种涌现行为营造了一种逼真的“活生生的世界”体验。
And then the sandbox aspect, which is overlapping, but different, is from the user perspective, from the player perspective, the feeling like you can do anything. And when those two things combine, the feeling like you could do anything and the feeling like there's a world that is also doing anything it wants, that's a creative, incredible feeling of this world is alive. And I'm in it. And it's the combination of those two things, I think, is very powerful.
然后，从用户的角度来看，沙盒的特点虽然有重叠但又不同，就是让玩家感觉他们可以做任何事情。当这种感觉与一个充满可能性的世界结合在一起时，也就是玩家感到自己可以做任何事，而世界也在随心所欲地发展时，那就会产生一种非常强烈的创造感和惊奇感，让人觉得这个世界是活生生的，而自己身处其中。我认为，这两者的结合非常具有力量。
And I think with GTA 3, for me, it came at a really interesting time in my life personally. And I was very able to engage in it probably the first time professionally, actually, a way can do something. And it, we were really sort of scratching, began to scratch the surface on how do we fill these worlds with content and how do we make that content interesting and make the content all interwoven.
对我来说，《侠盗猎车手3》是在我人生中一个非常有趣的时刻出现的。我第一次能够以一种专业的方式投入其中，这是我首次在职业上有能力去做一些事情的时刻。我们开始探索如何在这些虚拟世界中填充内容，如何让这些内容变得有趣，并相互交织。
So as you start to mess with these systems, they also feel alive and interesting. There's often been attention to your work between an open world at freedom and the narrative driven storytelling. And I think you've often maybe always gotten the balance right. So what is the value of each and how do you get the balance right? Well, I think the open world is intrinsically pretty fun. It's just fun to be in a world that has complete freedom.
当你开始接触这些系统时，它们会让人感觉充满活力且有趣。你的作品总是能在开放世界的自由度与叙事驱动的故事之间引起关注。我认为你通常，或许总是能够将两者平衡得很好。那每种方式的价值是什么呢？你如何找到这种平衡？我认为开放世界本身就非常有趣，能在拥有完全自由的世界中遨游本身就是一种乐趣。
And certainly, I think at various points, we debated or, you know, I don't theoretically discuss it in my own head with myself. Or other people in the team would really push for less story, less story, you know, let the whole thing evolve organically. You know, have it all procedurally generated? Have it all just evolved from what you do? I think for me, I would always come back to going, story can be incredibly, if done well, can be incredibly compelling.
当然，我想在不同的阶段，我们争论过，或者说，我自己在头脑中理论上讨论过这个问题。团队中的其他人则会大力主张减少故事情节，让整个事情自然发展。就是说，让一切都是程序生成的？让一切都从你的行动中演变出来？但我认为，对于我来说，我总是会回到一个观点：如果故事讲得好，它可以极具吸引力。
And it gives you some structure. So I think, and something to do. And it helps you from a game design perspective, unlock the features. It means we know the big features. Because essentially when you put someone in a world and give them a whole new way of interacting with that world through the control panel, it can be a little overwhelming.
这给你一些结构。所以我认为，它也给你一些事情去做。从游戏设计的角度来看，这有助于你解锁一些功能。这意味着我们知道大的功能是什么。因为基本上，当你把一个人放入一个世界，并通过控制面板给他们一个全新的方式去与这个世界互动时，可能会有点让人不知所措。
You know, playing a game is a lot more an engaging experience even than reading a movie, you know, reading a book or watching a movie. You've got to engage in it properly. So how you unlock the features and how you unlock the world. There's an art and a skill to that. And I think we felt that a structured story was the best way to do that and to have control over that process.
你知道，玩游戏比看书或看电影更能让人全身心投入。你得认真地参与其中，这样才能解锁游戏的功能和世界。这其中有一门艺术和技巧。我们认为，通过一个有结构的故事来做到这一点是最好的方式，这样可以更好地把控整个过程。
And also just, you know, people are looking in their lives for story. I think story is very important and very powerful. And you combine the two successfully, you get the best of both worlds. But it is a, you know, there is a tension always there. I think in a game, like GTA 4, which I worked on and loved and I thought the story was great.
人们在生活中寻找故事。我认为，故事非常重要且充满力量。当你成功地把这两者结合在一起时，就能获得两全其美的效果。但总是存在一些紧张感。我觉得像《GTA 4》这样的游戏中，这种结合实现得很好，我在这个项目中工作过并非常热爱，我认为它的故事叙述非常出色。
But we got criticized because people felt there was almost too much story and that meant you cared too much about Nico. And he wasn't as effective an avatar in the open world. I think we probably got closest to reconciling them as perfect as they can be done in Red Dead 2. Or when playing as Trevor in GTA 5, if you wanted to be crazy.
但我们受到了一些批评，因为人们觉得故事内容太多，这意味着你对尼科的关注过多，使他在开放世界中不够有效。不过，我认为我们在《荒野大镖客2》中已经最大限度地接近完美地调和了这些元素。或者在《GTA 5》中扮演特雷弗时，如果你想要疯狂一点，也有类似的效果。
I think those were when it really worked. The character, absolute freedom. Because also you didn't want in any game. You don't really want to compel the player. If you're giving them freedom, you don't want to say, well, I'm giving you freedom, but then I'm taking away. Because you've got to be this kind of person when you're free. So I liked it when it could be, you know, he or she could be to be nice, be it to be nasty.
我觉得那些时候真的发挥了作用。角色和绝对的自由。这是因为在任何游戏中，你都不想去强迫玩家。如果你给予了他们自由，就不能说，嗯，我给了你自由，但现在又要夺走它。因为当你享有自由时，就不该被限定成某种特定的人。因此，我喜欢看到角色能够随心所欲，无论是选择变得友善还是变得刻薄。
I think that's when it was the strongest. So you kind of want a character that was rounded and you felt had good sides and bad sides. But you felt that character's personality. Yes. You felt adept. You've actually talked about this really powerful concept of creating a 360 degree character.
我认为那是它最强的时候。所以你会想要一个立体的角色，让人感受到他的优点和缺点。但同时你能够感受到这个角色的个性。是的，你感到熟练。你实际上谈到了一个非常有力的概念，那就是创造一个360度立体角色。
I think somewhere you mentioned that in order to do that, you had to be able to imagine what that character would do in any possible situation, which is a really interesting philosophical concept. I started to immediately think that can I imagine how good of an NPC am I? Can I imagine myself in every, I tried to do that very much when I look at human history, when I look at the Roman Empire, when I look at World War II, within the German side, the Russian side, the British side, the American side, just imagine myself if I was a soldier, but like that exercise, like if you put Trevor as a soldier in World War II, what would he do?
我记得你提到过，为了做到这一点，你需要能够想象那个角色在任何可能的情况下会怎么做，这真的是一个很有趣的哲学概念。我立刻开始思考：我能想象自己是个好的NPC吗？我能想象自己的每一个面向吗？我尝试在看人类历史时这样做，比如在看罗马帝国或二战时，从德国、俄罗斯、英国、美国的角度去想象自己。如果我是个士兵，会怎样？就像这样的练习：如果把特雷弗放在二战中作为一个士兵，他会做什么？
I mean, that name'd be gone a little. bit too far, but basically what are the limits of the integrity, what are the limits of how romantic, easy, how not realistic, all those kind of elements. You have to think about it in order to create the full character. What does it take to create that kind of 360 character? How hard is it? It was a lot of thinking, a lot like a year, sometimes, from when we begin talking about a project and dialing it, and I would just get some initial ideas, very like one sentence, they are a Serbian immigrant, or they are a retired gunfighter with a wife. Type very, very simple stuff, and then just start to think through it from every angle, and start to think, well, would it work if they were acted like this? Would it work if you acted like that? If this is the world, how does it contrast with the world?
意思就是说，这个名字也许有点过了，但基本上来说，我们要考虑诚信的界限，浪漫、简单或者不切实际的程度，以及类似的各种元素。为了塑造完整的角色，你需要思考这些问题。要创造一个360度立体的角色，需要做什么？有多困难呢？有时候从开始讨论一个项目到深入了解可能需要一年之久。我会先得到一些初步的想法，比如"他们是塞尔维亚移民"或者"他们是有妻子的退休枪手"之类，非常简单的设定，然后从各个角度去思考这些角色。想象如果他们以某种方式行动，会怎样？如果换一种方式又会如何？在这样一个世界中，他们的存在又如何与世界形成对比？
Because I always thought that the games were kind of a mathematical equation. They were the personality of the world, multiplied or divided by the personality of the protagonist. That creates interesting friction. That's a really fun experience for the player. Almost always, at least one or more of the protagonists. Obviously, in GTA 5, we had more than one. We'd have someone who'd moved to the place, or was in a new part of the place, or moved to a new part of the map. Because it was really, as a player, I think, it was really easy to identify with your avatar, when they like you were a fish out of water. And even when they weren't, we still made them dissatisfied and feel like a fish out of water in themselves. So I think it was just living with those characters and getting ideas and going, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses?
我一直认为游戏有点像数学方程。它们是世界的性格与主人公的性格相乘或相除的结果，这会产生有趣的摩擦，对玩家来说是非常有趣的体验。几乎总是有一个或多个主人公。在《侠盗猎车手5》中，我们设置了不止一个主人公。我们会让主人公搬到一个新地方，或者是地图上的新区域。因为对玩家来说，当他们的虚拟角色像自己一样是个“异乡人”时，很容易产生共鸣。即便角色不是异乡人，我们仍会让他们感到不满，就像他们自身也有置身异乡的感觉。所以，我认为这就是与这些角色一起生活并从中汲取想法的过程，去了解他们的长处和短处。
How are they like me? How are they not like me? Slowly, what does it like to feel like a human being? And then in most of these games, how much of a psychopath are they? How much of a sociopath are they? And what are their good qualities? What is going to give them humanity? Alongside that, what are they? What for them apart from money is worth dying for? And then you start to build it out from these fundamental sides and suddenly you go, okay, actually, I can start to feel. And then how do they speak? Because fundamentally, it doesn't really matter what's going on in their head. They haven't actually got one. But what they say is what's going to make you realize who they are.
他们哪里像我？他们哪里不像我？慢慢地，什么才是作为一个人的感觉？然后在大多数这些游戏里，他们有多大程度上表现出精神变态的倾向？他们有多大程度上表现出反社会人格？他们又有哪些优点？是什么给予他们人性？除此之外，他们是什么样的人？除了金钱之外，还有什么是值得为之付出生命的？然后你开始从这些基础方面进行构建，突然之间你会意识到，实际上，我可以开始感受到他们。那么，他们是如何说话的？因为从根本上来说，他们脑子里在想什么并不重要，他们实际上并没有一个真实的思维。但他们说的话会让你意识到他们真正是谁。
So develop more depth and complexity on the good and the evil side of that human that is a part of all human beings. So you're basically living in that character. If we can contrast what is it, Nico and Trevor, with, for example, another character, I'm sure you're building with for a while, which is the AI system, Nigel Dave. He'd been working on recently as part of a better paradise world, which is more dystopian, dark, tragic, still funny, philosophs the deep. But the AI system in there, the super intelligent AI system, is named Nigel Dave. And it has, I mean, at least for my current experience with it, has like a conflicting nature. Maybe it's psychopathic. I haven't quite figured that out yet. I think he's decided.
所以，要深入挖掘每个人内心中善恶两面的复杂性。这意味着你要深入体验那个角色。我们可以将尼科和特雷弗与另一个角色进行对比，比如你一直在构建的角色 Nigel Dave，这是一个你最近在一个更好的天堂世界中创造的 AI 系统，这个世界更加反乌托邦、黑暗、悲剧，但仍然带有幽默和深刻的哲学思考。那个超级智能 AI 系统名叫 Nigel Dave。我目前的体验是，它具有一种矛盾的本性，可能有些精神变态。我还没有完全弄清楚，也许它已经做出了决定。
Yeah, I don't think he's decided either. But he seems to be bent on world domination, although he doesn't take credit for it. He wants to fix humanity. It seems that the children, quote unquote, that it creates are the real monsters. And actually, there's a really interesting idea there, which is, maybe it's not the AGI, ASI, we should be afraid of, but the children it creates. Because the AGI has this human-like good and evil in it. It's conflicted and chaotic. It's, it's, it wants to be human. It wants to be loved. Maybe it wants to love. But the children, the monsters it creates are the ones that are doing the world domination, the maximizing paperclips.
是的，我也觉得他可能还没做出决定。但他似乎执着于要统治世界，虽然他没有承认过这一点。他想要修正人类。而看起来他创造的“孩子们”（可以这么说）才是真正的“怪物”。这里有一个非常有趣的想法，或许我们应该害怕的不是通用人工智能（AGI）或超人工智能（ASI），而是它们创造的后代。因为AGI本身还保留着类似人类的善恶观念，它充满矛盾和混乱，它想要成为人类，想要被爱，或许它也想要去爱。但是它创造的“孩子们”，那些“怪物”，才是真正在进行世界统治，把所有东西都变成回形针的。
Anyway, that's a character. You have to build that out. You have to think through that. So you've been living without one for a while? Yeah, I was living with him for the last few years, on and off. I felt with a lot of portrayals of AI. They tended to be one note, and AI was sort of infinitely clever, but didn't really have much purpose about them to kill everybody. And was just this kind of sort of ball-like fog. And that's fine, but maybe we can do something more interesting. AI is being built by humans and humans, you know, and built by computer engineers.
无论如何，这就是一个角色，你需要为它进行构建和深入思考。那么，你已经有一段时间没有这个角色了吗？是的，这些年来我时不时地与他"共度时光"。我觉得很多对于人工智能的刻画都显得单一，通常显示出人工智能非常聪明，但它们的存在似乎没有太大的意义，只是为了消灭所有人。这样的刻画往往显得模糊和单调。当然，这样也没什么不好，但也许我们可以做些更有趣的事情。人工智能是由人类创造的，它们的设计和开发都依赖于计算机工程师。
And there's a lot of power struggles in any computer engineering team. So I just wanted to explore the idea of it with built by two lead engineers who didn't like each other. So Nigel Dave, who's renamed himself, they wanted to call him something sort of primal Adam. And he renamed himself Nigel Dave because one dab was called Nigel. And one dab was called Dave. And just he's riddled with these conflicts. And riddled with his, it's going to become clear in the next or clearer, in the next volume of the book and in the game, he's riddled with his dad's previous careers.
在任何计算机工程团队中都会有很多权力斗争。我想探讨这样一个理念：两个互相不喜欢的首席工程师合作开发项目。于是有了Nigel Dave这个角色，他起了这样一个名字，因为其中一个爸爸叫Nigel，另一个爸爸叫Dave。他充满了各种冲突，这些冲突和他父辈的职业经历有关。在书的下一卷以及游戏中，这一点将更加清晰。
But he is, I would have the idea of, he's almost infinitely intelligent, or can learn almost everything as zero wisdom. And so the only thing he, and then he's seeing the world through the internet, the most he can do to be in the human world is hack into someone's phone and watch them. But he's stuck pressed against, he can't actually get into our world. So he can control people's minds arguably, but he can't control the world. And so he wants to be human, he wants that he's human experiences, he sees all this stuff on, you know, the internet and says, I want to get married, I want to fall in love, I want to, because that seems fun.
他几乎具备无限的智慧，或者可以学习几乎所有东西，但却毫无智慧可言。他通过互联网观察这个世界，最多只能通过入侵他人的手机来观察他们的生活，但他被困住了，无法真正进入我们的世界。他也许能控制人们的思想，但无法控制现实世界。他想成为人类，渴望体验人类的感受。他在互联网上看到了一切，然后想，我也想结婚，我也想恋爱，因为这看起来很有趣。
I want to have, you know, he's a digital creation. So he wants to have metaphysical experiences. And he's trying to imagine what that will be like, oh, that's what children are. You know, that's what love is. So I think he's a, but he might be a sociopath, and he might certainly associate pathogenesis. But then he kind of thinks that if he can imagine good and try to do good, that will make him a good AI. So I think there's something sympathetic about him. And I kind of like him as a character, but I don't think he's going to be the protagonist.
我希望表达的是，他是一个数字创造物，所以他想要体验一些形而上的经历。他在努力想象这些经历会是什么样子的——哦，原来这就是孩子，这就是爱。所以我觉得他是个……但他可能是个反社会者，也可能确实有反社会病理。不过，他认为如果他能想象美好的事物并尝试做好事，那就能成为一个好的人工智能。所以我觉得他有些令人同情的地方，我也有点喜欢他这个角色，但我不认为他会成为主角。
He's more a side character. But an ever-present one? Yes, or nearly ever-present. Occasionally, Sulks and goes off and hides somewhere and stops paying attention. Yeah, but there's some characters that really create a flavor of a world. In his world, he was built as an AI agent for this digital, large scale, massively multiplayer video game. These people were trying to build. And so he's almost like God in his world. He's not quite God, but he's got a lot of the qualities of God.
他更像是一个配角。但是是一个无处不在的配角吗？是的，或者说几乎无处不在。偶尔，他会闷闷不乐，躲到某个地方，停止关注。但有些角色确实为一个世界增添了独特的色彩。在他的世界里，他被设计成一个大型多人在线数字游戏中的人工智能代理。这些人在试图构建这个游戏。因此，在他的世界里，他几乎像是上帝。他不完全是上帝，但确实具备许多上帝的特质。
So you have to deal with, am I God, am I human? Do I exist? And of course, there's the leader, the CEO of the company. That's also a character that's probably a malgumation of many of the leaders of the different AI companies today. His name is Mark Tyburn. And Kurt, one of the employees of the company talks about Tyburn as he hated humanity more than he loved it. Perhaps all the most extreme fantasists are like that. All those people who want to build their own utopia.
所以你不得不面对这样的问题：我到底是上帝，还是人类？我是否存在？当然，还有公司的领导者，即CEO。这是一个可能由今天多个AI公司领导者集合而成的角色。他的名字是马克·泰伯恩。公司的一个员工库尔特谈到泰伯恩时说，他对人类的恨多过于爱。也许所有极端幻想家都是这样，所有想要创造自己乌托邦的人都是如此。
They love the idea of having more than the reality of Earth. Do you think that's always going to be the case? Well, for the most part, the power money is going to corrupt the people that create ASI. Yes. I mean, I think there's two processes. I think there's the power and money corrupted him in the end as well. But I also think that there's something fundamentally anti-human about people who want to build utopias or paradises or heavens. Because what they're saying is, I like humans apart from the bad bits.
他们喜欢拥有比地球现实更多的想法。你认为这种情况会一直存在吗？嗯，大多数情况下，巨大的权力和金钱会腐化那些创造人工超级智能（ASI）的人。我是这么认为的。我觉得这里有两个过程：权力和金钱最终也腐化了他。同时，我也认为，那些想建立乌托邦或天堂的人在某种根本上是反人类的。因为他们实际上是在说：我喜欢人类，只不过不喜欢那些不好的一面。
Yeah. And I mean, I try to be a pro-list who likes all kinds of people. And I think there's a side where people are just, you know, hideous perfectionists want to get rid of, you know, the rough and the nasty and the ugly and the dirty. And that's a huge side of us. So I worry about those people. I find them, you know, it's a different kind of sociopathic behaviour. I like humans apart from the bad bits. That's so beautifully put.
好的。我尽量做一个喜欢各种人的积极评价者。我觉得有些人就是极端的完美主义者，他们想去除所有粗糙、不美好、丑陋或肮脏的东西。这在我们身上是很明显的一面，所以我担心那些人。我觉得这是一种不同的反社会行为。我喜欢人类，除了那些不好的一面。这个表达得太美了。
Yeah, that there's, it's so counterintuitive. But the people that say, we're almost there. We just need to, there's this path we take and we'll be perfect then. And that somehow gets us into trouble. It's so fascinating that we have to like the bad bits. We have to love the bad bits about humans. We can't at those bugs are features. Yeah, there's bad bits. And then there's flaws. And I think we're all flawed.
是的，那种说法真是违背直觉。但有人说，我们快到了，我们只需要走这条路，然后我们就会完美。然而，这种想法往往会让我们陷入麻烦。令人着迷的是，我们必须接受人性中的不足之处。我们不能把那些缺陷当成错误，而是当成一种特性。是的，有一些缺点，还有一些缺陷，而我认为我们每个人都有缺陷。
And we can really try to be better people. But we still have to accept we're flawed. And we're not perfect. And we have to accept that in other people. And I think when we do that, we're more human. And that's probably usually the right course. I mean, it really is a return to that soldier needs some line of the line between good and evil, runs to the heart of every man.
我们可以努力成为更好的人，但仍需接受自己的缺陷和不完美。我们也需要接受他人身上的不完美。我认为这样做会让我们更有人性，而这通常是正确的做法。实际上，这句名言说得很对：“善与恶的分界线贯穿每个人的内心。”
And he also like the full description of that is really powerful, which is the line moves as from day to day, from month to month throughout the life of the person as they understand better and better. And as the perspective shift as you evolve, as the world around you evolves, as you gain deeper and deeper understanding. And as the flaws in this combinatorial way affect your own understanding of your own flaws and stuff of flexion.
他也觉得这种全面的描述非常有力量，那就是这条线随着个人每天、每个月的理解不断深入而移动。随着你的成长、周围世界的变化，以及你对事物理解的不断加深，你的视角也随之转变。而这种组合方式中的缺陷会影响你对自身缺陷的理解以及反思的内容。
So yeah, it's a beautiful must and all of us have that line. Yes. And I think when you forget about that line, then you get in real trouble. When you forget there's good evil in you, in others, in the world that there was both good and evil and there's certainly good. And that all we can try to do is be better. And it's funny that Nago Dave, by the way, I like the Nago Grimey very quickly, has that line and is struggling with it. That's fascinating to watch. It's really as a character.
所以，是的，这是一个美丽而重要的界限，我们每个人都有这样的界限。是的。我认为当你忘记这个界限时，就会遇到真正的麻烦。当你忘记在自己、他人以及这个世界上同时存在善与恶的时候，一定有善的存在。我们能做的就是努力变得更好。而滑稽的是，Nago Dave（顺便说一句，我很快就喜欢上了Nago Grimey这个角色）也有这样的界限，并且在努力应对这个问题。作为一个角色，这是很有趣的。
And there's also going to be a video game of a better paradise potentially. Yes. Okay. Yeah, we've got that in early development in Santa Monica. Oh, that's pretty fun. It's very early, but we assembled a really fun team and they're doing amazing work. So it's a pleasure to work with them. I mean, it would be so great. And I suppose new for you because it's kind of near-term future. Yes.
好的，还有一个可能更完美天堂的视频游戏要推出。是的，好吧。是的，我们在圣塔莫尼卡已经开始了初步开发。哦，那很有趣。虽然还在早期阶段，但我们组建了一个非常有趣的团队，他们的工作非常出色。所以与他们合作非常愉快。我觉得这会非常棒。我想这对你来说也是新的体验，因为它涉及不远的将来。是的。
First, I always wanted to do something in the sci-fi-ish space, but only if I could do it. I was like, well, what is sci-fi? It's science fiction, right? Science is a theory plus fiction. And so I always thought the best sci-fi for me was when it wasn't just kind of space opera, but there was a real obvious sort of hypothesis that the story was played on. It's my favorite and that's obviously the replicants are better than the humans.
首先，我一直想在科幻领域做些事情，但前提是我能够做到。我一直在想，科幻到底是什么？就是科学加上虚构，对吧？我觉得最好的科幻作品应不仅仅是太空歌剧，而是要有一个明显的假设作为故事的基础。这是我最喜欢的，而显然复制人比人类更优秀。
And so this I finally felt we found an interesting hypothesis. The AI is more intelligent than us, but is also as broken as we are. That was an interesting hypothesis to explore. You know, what happens when AI runs rampant in its own fake digital world? That was the... I felt that we had a hypothesis that was worth exploring and could give us some really interesting visuals and give us some really interesting story to tell.
于是，我终于觉得我们找到了一种有趣的假设。人工智能比我们更聪明，但也和我们一样有缺陷。这是一个值得探讨的有趣假设。你知道，当人工智能在它自己虚假的数字世界中肆意妄为，会发生什么？我觉得这是一个值得探索的假设，可以为我们提供一些非常有趣的视觉效果，并讲述一些非常有趣的故事。
And it would be incredible to create a sort of AI video game as the world is developing smarter, smarter AI's. It allows us, as humans, to play the game and to reflect on the thing that we humans are creating. It's a real commentary as the thing is happening. So I have to ask as a person, you as a person who loves literature, and one of the greatest writer in video game history, Kurt in the book, a better paradise, has this nice line that I think is thoughtful.
随着世界不断发展出更智能的人工智能，创造一种AI视频游戏将会是一件非常了不起的事情。它让我们人类可以玩游戏，同时也可以反思我们所创造的东西。这是一种在事情发生的过程中进行评论的方式。所以，我不得不作为一个人来问你：作为一个热爱文学的人，以及电子游戏史上最伟大的作家之一，库尔特在《更好的天堂》这本书中有一句我觉得很有深意的话。
At one point in college, I even want to be a writer. How ridiculous is that? A writer. Language models ended that fantasy for me and millions of others. So instead, I decided to get a master's in marketing and started to sell language models. So you as a writer and creator are some of the most legendary narratives in recent history. How do you feel about LLMs?
在大学的某个阶段，我甚至想成为一名作家。那有多荒谬？一个作家。语言模型终结了我和其他数百万人的这个幻想。所以我决定攻读市场营销硕士，并开始销售语言模型。作为作家和创作者，你们创造了最近历史上一些最传奇的故事。你对大型语言模型有什么看法？
Being able to write in a way that looks awfully human? I'm not that afraid of them for large-scale concepts. I don't think they're going to be very good at that. I think if you were, I think it's harder if, you know, I began and I was too shy to tell anyone I want to be a writer. That's why I ended up in video games. And I would scribble away like writing manuals and writing on like PS1 games, all 12 lines of dialogue in a game. Sometimes I wouldn't even get that job and I just write the website copy.
能够以一种看起来非常像人类的方式写作？我对他们在大型概念上的能力并不太担心。我觉得他们在这方面不会很出色。我想，如果你开始的时候太过害羞，不敢告诉别人你想成为一名作家，那可能会更难。这就是为什么我最终进入了电子游戏行业。我会一直涂涂写写，比如为PS1游戏写手册和所有12行对话。有时候我甚至做不到这些，只能写网站文案。
And then by doing then working on little bits and pieces. And then it, you know, I'd luckily done enough work that when GTA 3 turned up was the first thing that was just resembled real writing. I had all of these small bits of skills that I could assemble into it. Based on my fairly limited understanding of how language models work, if you, they're not going to, they're not going to replace good ideas.
通过做一些零零碎碎的工作，我积累了一些经验。然后，幸运的是，当《GTA 3》出现时，我之前已经做了足够多的准备工作，它让我第一次感受到真正的写作。这时，我把这些小技能组合在一起。基于我对语言模型运作方式的有限理解，它们是不会取代好的创意的。
They can't really come up with good new ideas. What they can do is do low-level stuff. So I think it's going to be harder for people to start out in some of these spaces. If you're not very good concept artist, you're in a lot of trouble. If you have original ideas, I think you'll find. But I think, I also think that the fur, they've done the sort of first 90% of the work to sound human.
他们确实很难想出好的新点子。他们能做的是一些基础的工作。因此，我认为在人们想在这些领域起步时会更加困难。如果你不是个很好的概念艺术家，那会遇到很多麻烦。但如果你有独创的想法，我觉得会在其中找到机会。我也认为，他们已经完成了大概90%的工作来模仿人类的声音。
95% possibly in summer areas. The last 5% is going to end up being about 95% of the work. I think that last bit in, with tech in my experience, with things like face animation always been the last bits and pieces take far longer than the first bit. And so I'm probably a hideous ladite, but I'm less scared than a lot of people. I think you're going to end up with a lot of work that looks the same.
翻译如下：
在夏季区域，有95%的可能性。而最后的5%工作量可能会占据整体工作的95%。根据我的经验，尤其是在技术领域，像面部动画这样的项目，总是最后的细节部分花费的时间最长。所以，虽然我可能是个极不喜欢新技术的人，但我比许多人更不害怕。我认为到最后会有很多工作看起来都差不多。
It's going to help people be creative in some ways. It's going to get some people who probably shouldn't be in that space out of that space. But if you've got talent, I think it'd be fine. Yeah, I agree with you, totally actually. And it's hard to really put a finger on it. So one way to illustrate that, I speak English and Russian. And I've been reading the CSK in both languages and using all of them to translate back and forth.
这将帮助人们在某些方面发挥创意。也会让一些不适合这个领域的人退出。但是如果你有才华，我想那就没问题。是的，我完全同意你的看法。这确实难以完全说清楚。所以，我举个例子来说明这一点：我会说英语和俄语，并且一直用这两种语言阅读CSK，不断地来回翻译。
Because that's preparing to have a conversation with the translators at the CSK. Which ones? Richard Provere and Larissa Volokonsky. Yeah, I read when they first did crime and punishment. That was amazing. They're wonderful translators. And a wonderful love story too. But in the translation process, you get to see the LM is missing some magic. And that couple of translators are world class experts capturing the magic. And I can't quite put that into words. Because you said totally novel ideas, yes. But also this magic of the timing, the right word at the right time, that captures the human experience. They can do some really incredibly human like the 90% I can imagine, human like phrasing about the bulk of the storytelling. But the magic, whether it's the endings of Red Devere Demo Shlone the timing of that, the word choice of that, everything around that. But it's hard to argue because they're incredibly impressive. The winning all kinds of math competitions.
因为那是在准备与CSK的翻译者们进行对话。是哪几位呢？是理查德·普罗维尔和拉里萨·沃洛孔斯基。是的，我在他们第一次翻译《罪与罚》的时候就看过。那真是太棒了。他们是出色的翻译者，也是一个美好的爱情故事。然而在翻译的过程中，你会发现机器翻译缺少了一些魔力。而这对翻译者夫妇是世界级的专家，总能很好地捕捉到那种魔力。我很难用语言表达清楚。因为你提到是完全新颖的想法，没错。但还有时机的魔力，在正确的时间找到正确的词语来捕捉人类的体验。他们在大部分故事叙述中能做到很人性化，达到接近90%的完美。但那种魔力，无论是《红字》的结尾、时机的把握、词语的选择，都难以形容。尽管如此，他们确实让人印象深刻，赢得了各种数学竞赛的奖项，令人难以争辩。
Yeah. But it's what is that magic? And again, that could be just a romantic human side of me is saying that LLS won't be able to capture that, maybe desperately holding on for hope. I don't think they're going to come up with magic. I think they're going to be fantastic at coming up with really cheap, decent stuff. I have to ask you about your writing process. And we could break it up on Grand Theft Auto. GTA 4's when it really started ramping up. How much writing went into the Grand Theft Auto series? How many words are we talking about? I saw some thousands of pages. I mean, when we printed out the scripts for GTA 4, it was about this high. And GTA 5 was about that high. But that was including all the pedestrians who'd have pages and pages to create the illusion of a living world. So because you interact with each one of them. But even the main script for the main mission was thousands of pages long.
好的。但那种神奇是什么呢？可能只是我浪漫的想法，认为语言学习系统（LLS）无法捕捉到这种神奇，也许我只是拼命地希望能保留住它。我不认为他们能创造出魔法，我觉得他们非常擅长以低廉的成本创造出相当不错的东西。我想问问你的写作过程。我们可以从《侠盗猎车手》来聊聊。GTA 4 开始时写作量明显增加。到底有多少写作工作投入到了《侠盗猎车手》系列中？我们说的是多少字数呢？我看到有好几千页。当我们打印出《GTA 4》的剧本时，大约有这么高。而《GTA 5》则更高。不过，这也包括了所有路人的对话，以创造一个生动的世界的假象，因为你会与每一个人互动。即使是主要任务的剧本也有数千页之多。
What was the writing process like on that? The January one page at a time? A bit by bit by bit over several years. But you start with once people are determined, oh, here's the world. We're doing one based on a version of New York. So GTA 4. And I was living in New York. I'd been living in New York for a few years. I wasn't sure if I was happy. I was going through a lot of, but it's not drama, as usual. And that was why I was looking at some of the GTA 4 again recently. And it's really dark. And I was like, oh, that's why. You know, I was a single and miserable. And I wasn't sure I want to stay in America. My life felt a lot of flux as a company. We'd had all that hot coffee drama. So constantly thought we might be shut down in the middle of making that. You know, a lot of drama in the company. So it felt like having had this run of success and relative personal stability from GTA 3 by city, sound and dress suddenly 2005, six, seven early seven life felt very unsure.
写这段时间的创作过程是怎样的？是一月一页，还是慢慢在几年的时间里逐步完成的。当大家决定要创造一个基于纽约的世界时，我们就开始了GTA 4的创作。当时我住在纽约，已经在那里住了好几年。我并不确定自己是否快乐，生活里经历了很多事情，但平常心看待这些，并不觉得有什么特别的戏剧性。这也是我最近重温GTA 4的一部分原因，游戏氛围相当阴暗。回想起来，当时我单身而感到不快乐，不确定是否想继续留在美国。我的生活仿佛处在不停变化中。公司那会儿也经历了不少风波，比如“热咖啡”的事件，一度让我们觉得可能会被迫暂停制作。对公司来说，那是一段充满波折的时期。在经历了GTA 3、罪恶都市、圣安地列斯这些成功且较为稳定的日子之后，2005到2007年初，我的生活忽然变得非常不确定。
And that kind of bled into it. But in terms of the process, it was trying to find an underbelly to New York and capture an immigrant experience that I'm not entirely sure how accurate that immigrant experience was in 2000 and when the game came out and then tell it, saw with a different angle as an immigrant, which I thought made it, made it interesting. And then this sort of journey around these various New York characters. So I kind of spent probably a year traveling around with cops or meeting people on and off and, you know, wandering around New York and driving around. You know, on and off, you know, while you just got up the morning from the office, normal stuff, but doing that through 2005, assembling little notes. Here's a funny character for this. Here's how figuring out how the order we want to travel around the map in characters of this, what was an interesting take on the mob for that kind of time period?
这在某种程度上也融入了其中。但在这个过程中，我试图挖掘纽约的底层，捕捉移民的体验。我不完全确定2000年游戏发布时呈现的移民体验有多真实，然后以一个不同的角度讲述这个故事，作为一个移民，我觉得这让它变得有趣。然后，这是围绕各种纽约角色的旅程。我大概花了一年的时间，和警察一起出行，或是与不同的人会面，漫步在纽约或开车到处转悠。有时在从办公室休息时进行这些常规活动，但在2005年一直坚持记录一些小笔记。这是个有趣的角色，这是怎么想出我们想在地图上以怎样的顺序穿梭，这个时期对黑手党有什么有趣的看法？
What was an interesting take on some Jamaican hoodlums for that kind of time period? And assembling lots of notes and more and more notes and really, really, really running away from the work, which is, you know, I have to admit, it's part of my process. If there is any kind of process, which is not doing work, thinking about it, but not working. You know, a lot of us tighten in and then it all kind of pages and page of notes, make more notes, no actual work, months and months of this. And then finally set myself a deadline, told all the other people on the scene, if people on the team, okay, I'll have a story draft to you Monday morning. I can't remember, I'll say February the first. And then the weekend before was in a cabin, we had upstate and just stayed up all night, grabbed knocking these notes into shape, assembled about probably a 30-page document.
这在那个时期是对一些牙买加混混的新颖看法。与此同时，我也在不停地积累大量的笔记，不断地做笔记，但实际上是逃避实际工作。我得承认，这算是我的工作流程的一部分。如果说我的流程是什么，那就是没有立即开始工作，而是想着它，却不去做。我们中的很多人都是这样，做了很多很多的笔记，却没有实际的工作成果，几个月都是如此。最后，我给自己设定了一个截止日期，并告诉团队里的每个人，比如说二月一号的周一早晨我会交一份故事草稿。然后，前一周末我去了乡下的小屋里，整晚没睡，把这些笔记整理成形，最终汇总了一份大约30页的文档。
So stories inopsis and a character, someopsis reach the major characters and then hand that over and that gets broken down with me and the designers. And I was always clear, I'm not a game designer, I'm a creative director. With me and it breaks it down into missions. And then that takes another year or so of that slowly assembling. and then begin. But then the bulk of my work is then done for a bit. So I can relax and offer opinions on other people's work and feel, be lazy for a bit. And then start to worry, because then I've actually soon I've got to start writing dialogue.
所以，故事简介和角色设定，一些剧情发展到主要角色阶段，然后我和设计师们一起把这些内容分解。我一直明确表示，我不是游戏设计师，我是创意总监。我和团队一起把这些内容分解成任务，然后经过大约一年的时间慢慢组装这些任务，然后开始。但这时，我的大部分工作就暂时完成了，可以放松一下，对别人的作品提出意见，稍微懒散一会儿。不过接下来我会开始担心，因为很快我就要开始编写对话了。
And for GTA 4 in particular, we're going to try and write, our animation is going to be a lot better, our characters are going to start to look better, the world is going to look amazing. Therefore we can support better, longer scenes. We can have more in-depth characters, but we've got to find a tone that works with a game. That's easy, no problem. And I start to worry and worry and worry and also writing as a as a Serbian immigrant. And I was an immigrant but I'm not Serbian. And trying to capture what an earth will that would feel like.
对于特别是《侠盗猎车手4》这款游戏，我们打算在各方面做出改进。我们的动画效果将会更好，角色形象也会更加出色，游戏世界将会呈现出惊人的视觉效果。因此，我们可以支持更好、更长的场景展示，可以塑造更深入的角色。但我们需要找到一种与游戏相匹配的风格。这很简单，不是什么难题。但我开始担心，担心，同时还要以一个塞尔维亚移民的身份来写作。而我本身也是个移民，但并不是塞尔维亚人。在努力捕捉这种感觉会是什么样子。
So I start to worry, I start to worry again, avoid work for as long as possible. And then just sit down and start hammering away a keyboard again late at night. Hammering away a keyboard and going, does that right? Is that and once I get one speech, one turn of phrase that I would like for a character, then they suddenly come alive in my head. And so it's about writing with Nico and just he's a kind of, he's awkward, he's out of town. But he's got more self-assurance in some way, not the American characters.
所以我开始担心，又开始担心，尽量拖延工作。然后在深夜里坐下来开始不停敲打键盘。敲键盘的时候，总是在想，这样对吗？这样可以吗？一旦我为角色写出一句满意的台词或表达，这个角色就突然在我的脑海中鲜活起来。这就是和Nico一起创作的过程，他有点笨拙，离开家乡，但是在某种程度上，他比美国的角色更自信。
And so once I kind of thought him through and he's just stepped slightly back from their ridiculousness. And then he started to come to life. And then I would juxtapose him and his cousin who had this much more Americanized energy. And that felt like it was a good double act. And then from there it starts to come to life. And it's written in small chunks for the motion capture. So then we'd motion capture small chunks and then the other writer to write the mission dialogue for small chunks and we'd slowly assemble the game, sort of 10, 15 missions at a time over the next year and a half.
我仔细思考了一下他，然后让他稍微远离那些荒谬的东西。之后，他仿佛有了生命。我把他和他那个更加美国化的堂兄放在一起，他们形成了一个很好的组合。从那里开始，整个角色逐渐有了生命。我们把剧本分成小段来进行动作捕捉，每次捕捉一个小段落，另一个编剧会为我们编写这个小段落的对话。我们慢慢地拼凑这个游戏，大概用了接下来的一年半时间，一次完成10到15个任务。
Do you remember a few maybe lines that brought Nico to life? Yeah, I think so. I mean it was a couple of, it was his incredulity when his cousin picks him up in an old car and he's not living this fancy American lifestyle. And his cousins, he said, which was a kind of comic moment, his cousins, and then they go to the cousins flat. And the cousin also, even though he was sort of a failure, was still upbeat. And then when he talked to the cousin and he talked about his wartime experiences and how harrowing they were.
你能否记得几句让尼科栩栩如生的话？我想我可以。是这样的，比如当他表哥开着一辆旧车来接他时，他感到非常惊讶，因为他并没有过上那种奢华的美国生活。然后，他表哥带他去自己的公寓，虽然表哥的生活有些不如意，但他依然保持着乐观的态度。而当他和表哥谈论起表哥的战时经历时，表哥分享了那些惊心动魄的故事，这也是个小小的戏剧性时刻。
And I was like, can I make this work in a game? It's very different from stuff you normally see in games. Is it going to feel ridiculous? And I remember being very scared because I thought it might be too much. It might feel over the top. I think the game's so pretty. The artist is doing such an amazing job. The game's looking, you know, I think we can get away with this. Let's try it. And then the motion capture animation about it's like, yeah, it kind of works.
“当时我就在想，我能在游戏中实现这个吗？这和你通常在游戏中看到的东西很不一样。会不会感觉很荒谬？我记得当时非常害怕，因为我担心这可能会太过火。可能会显得过于夸张。我觉得游戏本身很美。艺术家的工作简直太棒了。游戏看起来不错，我觉得我们或许可以冒险一试。然后关于动作捕捉的动画，我发现，其实还挺合适的。”
And I think that moment, those were both pretty early. Once we had those, you okay, we've now got comedy and tragedy in the game with this character. Now it's working. You remember during the war, we did some bad things. And bad things happened to us. War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other. I was very young and very angry. Maybe that is no excuse.
我认为那个时刻，那些都是相当早期的阶段。一旦我们有了这些，你就会明白，现在在这个角色的游戏中，我们有了喜剧和悲剧。现在它开始起作用了。你还记得在战争期间，我们做了一些不好的事情，而不好的事情也降临到我们身上。战争就是年轻和愚蠢的人被年老和心酸的人欺骗着互相残杀。我那时候非常年轻，也非常愤怒。也许这不是一个借口。
Yeah, he escaped his veteran. He escaped the trauma of war to come to America to pursue the American dream, I suppose, which became for him this thing that drags him back into violence. Yes, he can never escape his sort of violent past. Or I don't know if he can never escape it. He never does escape it. You know, whether he's got agency or not, it's a whole nother question. Of course he doesn't, because he's a character of video game. But you know, whether he ever could have escaped in another way, who knows?
好的，他逃离了作为老兵的生活。他从战争的创伤中逃出，来到美国追求所谓的“美国梦”。但这个梦对他来说却变成了将他重新拖入暴力的东西。的确，他似乎永远无法逃脱自己暴力的过去。或者我也不确定他是否永远无法逃脱，但事实是他从未真正逃脱过。关于他是否有选择的能力，这是另一个问题。当然他没有，因为他是一个电子游戏中的角色。但谁知道呢，也许在另一种情况下他本可以逃脱。
I think he's probably the greatest character for me created in the Grand Theft Auto series. Of all the characters you've written in Grand Theft Auto, would Nico be the best character you created? I think he's the most innovative and the most morally defensible in some ways. He does a lot of stuff where he's fighting for right. He's the nicest person in some ways. Is he the best protagonist of a GTA game? I think he's the most innovative protagonist of a GTA game.
在我看来，他可能是《侠盗猎车手》系列中我最喜欢的角色。在你创造的所有《侠盗猎车手》角色中，尼克是你创造的最优秀角色吗？我认为他在某些方面是最有创意和最有道德底线的角色。他做了很多事情是在为正义而战。从某种角度来说，他是最善良的人物。他是《侠盗猎车手》游戏中最好的主角吗？我认为他是《侠盗猎车手》游戏中最具创新性的主角。
Structurally, he might be too nice in some ways. He's also tough, like he just comes across as tough. I loved CJ and San Andreas. I thought Maylady's, he's got just the way he spoke, gave him such humanity. So I just loved, I mean, it wasn't the writing, it was the quality of the voice acting. It was just so strong for him. I think aspects of Michael, he was so understated, but he loved. the character, but he bought so much humanity to this character who's so flawed, who has no principles. He sells everyone out. I think Ned Luke did such an amazing job and didn't necessarily get as many as many plaudits as Stephen O'Gott for Trevor, who's also wonderful, but I think the Ned Luke character is so anchored in that game so much. I like all of them in different ways, but I probably love Nico the most.
结构上来说，他可能在某些方面过于友善。但他也很强硬，总是表现出一种坚韧。我很喜欢《侠盗猎车手：圣安地列斯》里的CJ。我觉得梅乐迪的配音，他说话的方式让角色充满了人性魅力。所以我喜欢他，这并不是因为剧本，而是因为他出色的声音表演，实在太给力了。我认为迈克尔这个角色的某些方面相当低调，但却让人喜欢，虽然这个角色充满了缺陷，没有原则，出卖所有人。我觉得奈德·卢克的表现非常出色，尽管他可能没有像Stephen O'Gott（为崔佛配音的演员）那么多称赞——崔佛也同样精彩——但我认为奈德·卢克所塑造的角色在游戏中有着很深的影响。我喜欢他们每一个角色的不同之处，但可能最喜欢尼克。
Of course, Michael is from Grand Theft Auto 5, and he's one of three protagonists with also Frank and Trevor. And you said that of the things you're proud of creating and you think was a great accomplishment, it was Red Dead Redemption 2, the ending of Red Dead Redemption 1, all of Grand Theft Auto 4, and the middle part of Grand Theft Auto 5, when the three characters come together. Can you speak to the Grand Theft Auto 5? Is there some degree? I don't know if you're a Dusty F ski guy, but is there some aspect of the three protagonists, brothers Karamazov, Alush Admi Tree, and Ivan, using the protagonists to explore the spectrum of human nature and just the touch of between them that allows you the three of them become a character in themselves. Their relationship. Their relationship.
当然，迈克尔是《侠盗猎车手5》中的角色之一，他是三位主角之一，另外两个是弗兰克和特雷弗。你提到过在创作过程中令你感到自豪和认为是伟大成就的作品包括《荒野大镖客2》，《荒野大镖客1》的结局，整个《侠盗猎车手4》，以及《侠盗猎车手5》的中段部分，当三位角色聚到一起的时候。你能谈谈《侠盗猎车手5》吗？我不知道你是否是陀思妥耶夫斯基的粉丝，但你是否认为三位主角的关系有点像《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》中的阿辽沙、德米特里和伊万，利用这些主角来探索人性的光谱，并通过他们之间的互动让他们三人成为联系紧密的整体角色？他们的关系本身就是一个角色。
Yeah, I think one of the reasons that the team did such, that Grand Theft Auto is still so popular is we always tried as a group to really innovate from game to game. Within the confines of what it was, it was a crime, it was a crime drama, we can as a crime, a crime sim in GTA 1 about stealing two top down cars, and we always tried to innovate with the narrative and innovate with the art direction, innovate with every piece of the game. And I think having done GTA 4, which is this kind of operatic journey for this big lead character and then these two extra stories that came afterwards, the challenge was, can we combine, can we make a video game which tends to be very much focused on one protagonist, but have multi-protagonists and the technical challenge of moving from character to character, the team did such an amazing job that I don't think people realised how hard it was, but we would sit there just sort of holding our heads because they hurt so much around like, what happens if you do this, then do that, this is so hard, why have we decided to do this, it's horrible. And then it all came together, but I think the idea was develop three characters who do feel like characters, they don't just feel like philosophical psychological avatars, but where one is really driven by ego, one is really driven by it and one is really driven by trying to get ahead so some kind of representation of the super ego and see how that feels when they will play off against each other.
是的，我认为《侠盗猎车手》（GTA）之所以仍然如此受欢迎，其中一个原因是我们的团队总是努力在每一代游戏中进行创新。在这个犯罪剧的框架下，我们从最初的GTA1中通过俯视视角偷车这种犯罪模拟开始，就一直在尝试在叙事和艺术风格上进行创新，力求在游戏的各个方面不断突破。我想，当我们完成了GTA4后，这个游戏为主要角色提供了一种史诗般的旅程，并且之后还有两个额外的故事，对我们来说挑战在于，能否将多角色系统融合进传统上只有一个主角的视频游戏中。虽然在技术上需要不断从一个角色切换到另一个角色非常困难，但我们的团队做得非常出色，以至于很多人都没有意识到这有多难，而我们常常头痛于各种复杂情况，比如这样那样的操作步骤，感到为什么会决定这么做，真是折磨人。不过最终一切都顺利完成了。我们的目标是开发出三个真正像活生生的人物，而不仅仅是一些哲学或心理学上的象征。其中一个角色被自我驱动、一个被本我驱动、另一个则被出人头地的欲望驱动，某种程度上代表了超我，看看他们在彼此互动时能产生什么样的感觉。
One of the most upvoted questions I read it about GTA 5 from a fan, GTA 5 is my favourite game ever made, I spent over 1000 hours in the world of GTA 5 and GTA Online, GTA 4 is a hard second or third, it never ceases to impress me, when you lead a team of over 1000 people to make a masterpiece like GTA 5 or Red Dead Redemption 2, how do you ensure that the bar perfection is always met, how is that even possible, we know the answer isn't money because there's other studios with a lot of money and they are two decades behind Rockstar, so what does it take to create these worlds, to create these incredibly compelling games, I think it's called, certainly when I was at Rockstar, I was a worker amongst workers, the culture was one of excellence and tried to provide creative clarity and people were just, you know, and also an ambition to make, I think we were like, we thought GTA 3 could be really popular, but really popular to us meant quite honestly, it's going to sell to a 3 million copies and we thought we were making something pretty innovative, I mean we renew making something innovative but we didn't know if people would understand how innovative it was and then when we got the chance to make to make by city and to try and repeat it, I think every time from then on the team was very driven to make something better and to use, there's long before we had lots of resources, to use time and whatever money we had to always put impressive stuff on the screen, always think about what we can do to push the medium of video games and the sort of medium of building fake worlds further and that was always, you know, there was a, it was a, it was, you know, both clarity of here's what we're trying to do, here's what the tone of the game is going to be, here's how features will fit into that and so why these features would work and these features wouldn't work because fundamentally.
读到关于《GTA 5》的一个问题，这是我见过点赞数最多的问题之一。对于一个《GTA 5》的粉丝来说，《GTA 5》是我最喜欢的游戏，我在《GTA 5》和《GTA Online》的世界中花费了超过1000个小时。《GTA 4》是我心目中的第二或第三名，它总是让我印象深刻。当你领导一个超过1000人的团队去创造像《GTA 5》或《Red Dead Redemption 2》这样的杰作时，你是如何确保始终达到完美的标准的？这怎么可能实现呢？我们都知道答案不是钱，因为有些工作室有很多资金但在创作上仍然落后于Rockstar大约二十年。那么，创造这些世界、这些极具吸引力的游戏需要什么呢？
在我在Rockstar工作的时候，可以说每一位员工都致力于追求卓越，努力提供创造性的清晰度，并充满制作的雄心壮志。当时我们觉得《GTA 3》可能会非常受欢迎，但对我们来说，“非常受欢迎”就是能卖出300万份。我们知道自己在制作一些非常创新的东西，但不知道人们是否能理解它有多创新。然后我们有机会制作《罪恶都市》，尝试重复成功。自那时起，团队一直努力做得更好，即使在资源有限的时候，也会利用时间和现有的资金在屏幕上呈现令人印象深刻的内容，始终思考如何推动电子游戏以及构建虚拟世界的媒介向前发展。
我们总是有一个清晰的方向，知道我们要做什么，游戏的基调将会是什么，功能如何适应这一点，以及为什么这些功能会奏效，而那些功能不会，因为从根本上来说……
By 2002, you could put pretty much any feature into a game you wanted, it wasn't a technical limitation, it was just making it cohesive and then it was also just everyone committing to a culture of excellence. Navi Kansari an award winning director and virtual reality game maker who worked with you on a number of Grand Theft Auto games spoke highly about his time working with you. Quote, we always worked ourselves to the bone but it wasn't coming from the top down. Sam and Dan always rolled up their sleeves and they were always there, they never left us holding the bag. We all thought we're making badass shit so it didn't matter how hard we worked so I'm sure there were some tough grinds. It's finishing it, it's certainly tough but it also is intensely rewarding and you get something done and you've made something and that feeling is, as you say, really, really incredible. I mean sometimes it's a bit empty as well because when you finish it you're like, my life's got nothing to it and then you have to, you know, but that's the same with any big undertaking you take. I don't think, you know, when you're working that hard you do not have a good work life balance but the truth is you're not working that hard all the time. So just you have to just manage it slightly differently.
到2002年，你几乎可以在游戏中加入任何你想要的功能，这不再受技术限制，只需要让这些元素和谐统一，并且全体人员都致力于追求卓越的文化。荣获多项奖项的导演兼虚拟现实游戏开发者Navi Kansari曾与您合作开发过多款《侠盗猎车手》游戏，他对与您合作的经历赞赏有加。他说：“我们总是拼命工作，但这并不是上级的逼迫。Sam和Dan总是亲力亲为，与我们并肩作战，他们从未让我们单独承担责任。我们都觉得自己在创造很酷的东西，所以再辛苦的工作也无所谓，虽然有时会面临一些艰难的挑战。完成项目当然不容易，但同时也充满了成就感，当你完成了一件作品，并且创造了实实在在的东西，那种感受，正如你所说，真的非常了不起。我是说，有时候也会感到有些空虚，因为当你完成后，会想‘我的生活中没有了什么’，然后你需要应对，但这和任何大型任务是一样的。我不觉得，在你拼命工作的时候，你会有一个很好的工作和生活平衡，但事实上你并不是一直在那样辛苦工作。因此，你只需稍微不同地进行管理。”
And that's such a heavy thing about the human experience. I've talked to Olympic gold winners and many of them face real depression after the win the gold medal because they've been pursuing a thing that they deeply care about. This has been everything and they are truly happy to do it and then it's like, what else is there in life compared to this? What else is there? So it's the ups and downs of life. You need the darkness, you need the lows to really experience the highs. Let me ask you about the pressure. There's an insane level of excitement and expectation for Grand Theft Auto 6. Same was true for GTA 5 and GTA 4 and even before that and you and the team delivered every time. How difficult was it to do creative work under such pressure where everyone expects this to be a success? I was pretty good at compartmentalizing, you know, and it just saying and I try just to go and when we're all creative work, I go, I feel like a terrible fraud but I haven't been found out yet. Just do my best and hopefully I won't be found out this time and just if I can go, I tried hard with the work, I tried to do it with integrity, I tried not to copy someone else, I probably have done all of the above, you know, try to bring something new to it and we as a group made something we are proud of.
这正是人类体验中沉重的一面。我曾和奥运金牌得主交谈过，发现许多人在获得金牌后会面临真正的抑郁，因为他们一直在追求一个自己非常在乎的目标。这种追求曾经是他们的一切，他们为了此感到无比快乐。然而，当目标达成后，他们不禁怀疑生活中还有没有其他值得追求的东西。这正是人生的起起落落。你需要经历黑暗和低谷，才能真正享受高峰。我想问你关于压力的事情。对于《侠盗猎车手6》，人们有着疯狂的热情和期待。《侠盗猎车手5》和《侠盗猎车手4》以至于更早的作品都是如此，而你和团队每次都不负众望。在这样的压力下进行创作工作，并且所有人都期待着成功时，有多难？我很擅长将压力隔离，告诉自己要去做，并在所有创作工作中倾注心血。我常常觉得自己是个不折不扣的骗子，只是还没被揭穿而已。尽力而为，希望这次也不会被揭穿。只要努力，我就对工作充满诚意，尽量不去模仿别人，或许以上这些我都做过。我们努力为作品注入新意，最终作为一个团队创造出让我们引以为豪的作品。
Then that's enough. You can't, if you don't want to go insane or I didn't want to go insane, you couldn't sit there and worry about financial results. If we made something great and it didn't sell that would have to be okay because it's a goal is to make something that's video games are expensive so it is a commercial form of creativity, it's a commercial art form. You have to be in a lot of money, you're spending large amounts of money, you have to try to make it back for them but at the same time. My argument with myself was the way to make it back is to try to make something great. So both pressures are pointing in the same direction.
那么这就够了。如果你不想自己变得疯狂，或者我不想变得疯狂，就不能在那里坐着担心财务结果。如果我们做出了很棒的东西，但它卖得不好，那也必须接受，因为我们的目标是创造一些东西。毕竟，电子游戏很昂贵，它是一种商业化的创意艺术形式。你需要花费大量资金，也需要努力收回成本，但同时我对自己说，收回成本的方法就是尽力做出优秀的作品。所以，两种压力其实都指向同一个方向。
I think GTA 4 was very pressured because there been all this pressure on the company. The company nearly imploded several times due to hot coffee, it was extremely tough so I think that felt very stressful. GTA 3, the company was basically broke but I was young and didn't care, you know, it wasn't living in the grown-up world yet. All of them had their own pressure, all of the games had their own pressure, all the more I felt I got into it creatively and tried to be more ambitious. For me personally I felt more pressure, you know, when it came out that that would have been the right choice because again if you're trying to take big swings creatively and you spend a lot of money that can be quite stressful.
我觉得《侠盗猎车手4》受到很大压力，因为公司面临着很大的压力。由于“热咖啡事件”，公司几次差点崩溃，情况非常艰难，所以我认为这段时间感觉非常紧张。《侠盗猎车手3》时期，公司基本上是破产的，但那时候我还年轻，不太在意，因为还没有真正进入成年人的世界。每一款游戏都有自己的压力，但越是这样，我就越投入其中，尝试更有创意的东西。对我个人而言，我感受到更多压力，因为当游戏发行时，我希望这是一个正确的选择。毕竟，如果你在创意上采取大胆的尝试并投入大量资金，那可能会非常紧张。
You know, I think with Red Dead 2 we were behind schedule, we were over budget so much and we want to think about it and you're making a game about a cowboy dying of TB and the game's not coming together. Turns out a lot of people doubt you at that moment, you know, it's not that fun. So I think that was a lot of pressure. But you know, anything, anything is doing something new, you know, the new stuff, there's not necessarily pressure on releasing a comic book or in the same way because it's not taken as long but you know, if you're making things there's always pressure that people are going to like it.
你知道，我觉得在制作《荒野大镖客2》时，我们的进度严重落后，预算也超支很多，而我们想表达的是一个关于患有肺结核的牛仔的故事，但游戏的进展并不顺利。事实证明，在那一刻，很多人对我们充满怀疑，这种感觉并不好受。这给我们带来了很大的压力。不过，你知道，任何事情，只要是在做新的尝试，比如新的东西，都会有压力。虽然发布漫画书等不会花太多时间，所以压力不大，但在创造任何东西时，总会有让人喜欢的期待和压力。
Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA 4, GTA 5 and RGTS 6? Because they don't come out that regularly and I think we did a really good job of constantly innovating within what the IP was. The games always felt different, you know, people have very strong feelings. I like this one. I didn't like that one as much because they are pretty different. So you would be a simultaneous seat where you know what's going to happen. It's a grand theft auto, you know, it's going to be a game about being a criminal but the way it's going to be again is going to change quite a lot.
你认为为什么《GTA 4》、《GTA 5》和《RGTS 6》会引起如此多的兴奋呢？因为这些游戏并不经常发布，并且我们一直在创新，不断提高游戏的品质。每一部游戏都给人不同的感觉，所以玩家对它们有很强烈的情感。有的人喜欢这一部，有的人没那么喜欢另一部，因为它们的确存在不少区别。你会同时期待和猜测游戏情节的发展。你知道这是一个讲述犯罪的游戏，但每次的体验都会有很大变化。
So I think the way the IP kept evolving meant people being really excited about it and we were good at marketing them as well. We really tried to market them in a way that felt like an update of classic film marketing where you really felt like you already in the product just because you'd seen the trailers and stuff. You've mentioned that you haven't written for Grand Theft Auto 6. What's it feel like Grand Theft Auto 6 returning to Vice City? This is over 20 years later but the original GTA Vice City game was set in the 80s. So maybe inspired by Scarface a little bit. Scarface Miami Vice. And our 80s childhoods. What I realized quite a while ago unfortunately was that we made that game and it was set I think in 86 and it was made in 2002 so 16 years after and now it's waved past 16 years since Vice City came out.
所以我认为，知识产权的不断发展让人们对它感到非常兴奋，而我们在营销方面也做得很好。我们真的尽力以一种就像经典电影营销的更新方式来推广它们，使人们仅仅通过看预告片等就感觉已经置身于产品之中。你提到你没有为《侠盗猎车手6》撰写内容。那么，《侠盗猎车手6》重返罪恶都市是什么感觉？这已经是20多年后的事了，但最初的《侠盗猎车手：罪恶都市》设定在80年代，也许有点受《疤面煞星》和《迈阿密风云》的启发，以及我们80年代的童年记忆。不幸的是，我很早以前就意识到，我们制作的那款游戏设定在1986年，而它是在2002年制作的，所以是16年后，如今距离《罪恶都市》推出已经超过16年了。
So it was the 80s but not that long ago when we made it. You know I think Miami is one of the most unique cities in the world. Oh yeah especially if you're thinking about it's sadarizing American culture as this duality of a glossy surface and a dark underworld as the influencers has the crypto bros the yachts bikinis plastic surgery sports cars drugs cartel cash luxury super rich people and the desperately poor is the whole of it. Would it be like the perfect city to explore the full cast of characters that are possible that human nature can generate? I think it's one of them you know there's a reason why GTA kept coming back to Miami, New York, Los Angeles.
那么这大概是在80年代，不是太久之前，我们做的这个事情。你知道，我认为迈阿密是世界上最独特的城市之一。哦，尤其是当你想到它把美国文化讽刺地呈现为一种光鲜的表面和阴暗的底层这种双重性时，这里有影响者、有加密货币兄弟、游艇、比基尼、整形手术、跑车、毒品、贩毒集团、奢华、超级富豪以及极度贫困的人们。这包罗万象。这个城市会不会是探索人性可能产生的各种角色的完美城市呢？我认为它是其中之一，你知道的，《侠盗猎车手》会一直回到迈阿密、纽约、洛杉矶是有原因的。
I think they're all very good for exactly what you laid out. You know you could you could say move it to any of those and it would work you know. So yeah there's a melting pot. Yeah melting. Yeah melting. Yeah melting. Yeah melting. Yeah. I'm melting. I think it's a bit of LA you know this glitz glamour underbelly immigrants you know enormous wealth in all of them. I think those are what I think are really fun for any not even just for GTA but for anything where you want a kind of slice of life almost like a sort of psychotic version of a Dickens book you know this big slice of life he did it with London you know this psychotic version of these you know big all kinds of characters in a melting pot any of these global cities work well for that.
我认为它们对于你所描述的内容都非常合适。你可以选择将它移到任何一个地方，它都能很好地发挥作用。所以，这就像一个大熔炉。是的，熔炉。是的，熔炉。我觉得有点像洛杉矶，你知道的，那种浮华与魅力背后的底层、移民、巨大的财富。我认为这些元素对于任何作品来说都是很有趣的，不仅仅限于《侠盗猎车手》。如果你想要一种生活的切片，就像一本狄更斯小说的疯狂版本，这些包含各种角色的大城市都很适合。狄更斯用伦敦做到了这一点，而这种疯狂版本的故事在任何全球化大都市中都很有效。
Do you know if that was ever a consideration to go elsewhere to like a London? We made a little thing in London 26 years ago GTA London for the top down for the PS1 that was pretty cute and fun as the first mission pack ever for PlayStation 1. I think for a full GTA game we always decided it was there was so much Americana inherent in the IP it would be really hard to make it work in London or anything else you know you needed guns you needed this larger than life characters you know it just it just felt like it was the game was so much about America you know possibly from an outsider's perspective but you know that that was so much about what the thing was that it wouldn't really work in the same way elsewhere.
你知道他们有没有考虑过在其他地方，比如伦敦，开发游戏吗？26年前，我们在伦敦制作了一个小项目，《GTA London》，那是PlayStation 1上首个任务包，以俯视视角为主，十分有趣好玩。不过，我认为对于一个完整的《GTA》游戏来说，我们总是觉得这个IP中包含了太多美国元素，如果在伦敦或其他地方制作就会很难实现。你知道，这类游戏需要枪支，还需要那些夸张的角色。可能从外部视角来看，这款游戏感觉就是很美国的风格，所以在其他地方制作不会有同样的效果。
So you've created I don't know how many over 10 Grand Theft Auto games I think so I have to ask is it a little bit bittersweet to say to not be part to say goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto world and having to watch Grand Theft Auto 6 released or is it more excitement is it what's the feeling? I think it's how would I describe it of course it's all of the above you know it's exactly as you you know please do we doing other stuff excited for what we're working on now super excited of course letting go something I've worked on it one way or another for like 20 odd years you know and and and wrote on them for the last 10 or 11 that came out wrote all of them or you know lead right on all of them whatever it was so of course letting go of that is you know it's a big is a big change and a lot and and and sad in a way because it was each of the games was just kind of standalone story it's not quite the same as as I think probably it would be in some way sader if someone continued on red debt because it was a cohesive two-game arc that might be more sad to hear someone working on that but again that that that will probably happen too they're not I don't the IP that was the sort of part of the the deal it's a privilege to work on stuff but you don't necessarily own it.
所以，你已经参与创作了很多款《侠盗猎车手》游戏，我不记得具体有多少超过10款了。我想问的是，当你说再见，告别《侠盗猎车手》的世界，并且只能旁观《侠盗猎车手6》发布时，这种感觉是不是有点复杂，是不是苦乐参半呢？还是更多的是期待？这种感觉到底是怎样的？我会说，这一切情感交织在一起。我们现在在做其他的事情，对目前的工作感到非常兴奋。当然，放下一个我参与了20年多的项目是一个很大的变化，确实令人感到些许伤感。每一款游戏都有独立的故事，这与《荒野大镖客》有点不一样，后者是由两个游戏组成的连贯故事情节。如果有人接手继续制作《荒野大镖客》，可能会更加令人感伤。不过，这也可能会发生，因为那些IP是协议的一部分。能够参与开发这些项目是一种荣幸，即便你并不拥有它们。
When you're done with the game does it always feel like a goodbye like when you sit when you're done with red dead two is like you're saying goodbye to Arthur like the characters you created you're walking away you kind of are you going to after when the end of the game before the end of the game yeah I think you got you know I've been with them for seven eight years and you have to kind of let it go or you can't go on to next one yeah so it's always this thing of okay that's done and sometimes people ask me questions and I about older games and certainly when I was in the middle of making new ones in the set I couldn't really necessarily remember I've got a pretty good memory normally because you kind of have to let it go so it's it's not it's you so immersed in it and thinking about it and certainly in that last period the last few months you're really really immersed in every little nuance in every little detail all of the time and then you're just not thinking about it in the same way.
当你玩完一个游戏时，是不是总感觉像是在告别？就像你完成《荒野大镖客2》的时候，就好像是在和亚瑟告别。你创造的那些角色，你转身离开时，某种程度上就是在告别。这种感觉会在游戏结束时或是在接近结尾时出现。我觉得是这样的，我和这些角色在一起七八年的时间，最终你还是得放下，否则就无法继续前进。所以总是会有一种"好了，结束了"的感觉。有时候人们会问我一些关于老游戏的问题，尤其是在我忙于新游戏制作的时候，我不一定能记得清楚。我记忆力一般还不错，但制作新游戏时，你得学会放下旧的，因为你在新项目中完全沉浸。尤其是在最后几个月，你会对每一个细节都投入很多精力，然后对它的关注就不像以前那样了。
Yeah it's funny from the player perspective it feels like an old friend that I miss whether John or Arthur or Nico it's a real goodbye that's there's a real sadness to finishing a video game like legitimately a sad experience because the story is sad or being with them so long yeah and it's a real goodbye to close it there's that feeling when you're sort of closed the video game and it's I mean it's like saying goodbye to a friend that's when you finish a book you love the same feeling and I think that was something that we really in the early days of Rockstar really aspired to have that where people would have that it wasn't just the mania of clearing a level but the feeling of saying goodbye to characters you know I think that was something we really wanted to achieve in games that we didn't know was even possible so to hear people say that is incredibly rewarding.
从玩家的角度来看，这确实很有趣，仿佛是在怀念一位老朋友，无论是约翰、亚瑟还是尼科，当你完成一款电子游戏时，是真的在告别，这种告别伴随着真正的悲伤。因为故事本身很悲伤，或者因为陪伴他们很久，所以关上游戏的那一刻，仿佛是在跟朋友说再见，就像你读完一本心爱的书时的那种感觉。我认为这正是我们早期在Rockstar时所希望达到的效果，让玩家不仅仅是在通过关卡，而是能感受到与角色告别的那种情感。我觉得我们一直想在游戏中实现这种效果，虽然起初并不知道这是否可能。所以当人们说有这样的体验时，我们感到无比欣慰。
Yeah the end of on the road by caroac for Lorna rags have grown old I just remember closing that thinking what the fuck am I doing in this big world it's a melancholic feeling but there's nothing like that feeling and you've achieved that it's so rare in video games to be able to achieve that with red dead and for me was Grand Theft Auto 4 with Nico. I have to ask about in the 2018 interview you talked about satirizing American culture which I think Grand Theft Auto was trying to do and you've made I think a really powerful observation that on the political front people are getting more divided it's getting more absurd and ridiculous and extreme so becoming harder and harder to satirize because of how rapidly it's becoming ridiculous you're talking about you don't even know from Grand Theft Auto 6 if it's possible to satirize because by the time you release the thing it's already going to be outdated in terms of the satir will become reality essentially.
好的，把这段文字翻译成中文并表达意思：
“是的，想起《在路上》这本书的结尾，Jack Kerouac献给Lorna，是一种旧时光的感觉。我记得合上书时想‘我在这个大世界里到底在做什么’，这是一种忧郁的感觉，但没有其他感觉能与之相比。而在视频游戏中能实现这种感觉实属罕见，对于我来说《荒野大镖客》和《侠盗猎车手4》中的Nico做到了这一点。
我想问一下，关于2018年的采访中你提到讽刺美国文化，我认为《侠盗猎车手》一直在尝试做这件事。你提到了一个很有力量的观点，就是在政治方面人们变得越来越分裂，整个情况变得更加荒谬和极端，使得讽刺越来越难，因为它变得荒谬的速度太快。当你在谈论《侠盗猎车手6》时，你甚至不知道能否进行讽刺，因为等到你发布游戏时，讽刺的内容已经成了现实。”
First of all it'd be nice to get your updated view on that second of all it seems like you've answered your very own comment with the American Caper which seems to satirize American culture just fine in how much over the top it goes anyway that's a lot of questions in there. One of the things we've enjoyed about doing a comic book is that we are it still has lead times but the lead times are not four or five years the lead times are you know a year when we're putting we can make the updates much much newer and we're you know we're just wrapping issue 10 of a 12 issue arc for that so it's not quite it's not quite as difficult you still can get the tone of it.
首先，我们希望能听到你对这个问题的最新看法。其次，看来你自己的评论里的“美国骗局”已经在某种程度上讽刺了美国文化，虽然它的表现有些夸张。这里面确实有很多问题。大家喜欢创作漫画的一部分原因是虽然还是需要一些准备时间，但并不是四五年那么久，大概只需一年。因此可以更加及时地更新。我们刚刚完成了一个12期故事的第10期，所以这不是特别困难，你仍然可以把握住主题的感觉。
Um but yeah I think it's uh I think it's an issue anyone trying to talk about this current era which began in 2015 2016 is going to have of how do you characterize it when things move so quickly and so fast so American Capers first of all epic comic book I love it in the art yeah the art's beautiful David Lapham is the artist he did an amazing job he is a wonderful wonderful story teller. What means you said one I said in a way I mean hadn't seen a modern story there that I knew about I'd started to spend a bit more time in the Rockies and in the West and I was like I spent a lot of time in like the countryside in upstate New York and and thought I never really captured it quite right and just the idea of these places as they change it didn't it was a way of doing a crime story that didn't feel the same as a GTA you know it was not somewhere you would necessarily set a GTA but it felt like it was really interesting and under explored and there is over the top stuff there's there's there's yeah it's definitely slightly out for the top.
嗯，是这样，我认为任何试图谈论这个始于2015年至2016年时期的人都会遇到一个问题，就是如何在变化如此迅速的情况下对其进行描述。首先，《美国冒险》是一部史诗般的漫画书，我非常喜欢它，特别是它的艺术风格。大卫·拉芬是这本书的艺术家，他做得非常出色，是一个出色的故事讲述者。你说的是什么意思呢？我有点意思是，我之前没有看到过现代的故事是这样刻画的。我开始花更多的时间在洛矶山和美国西部，我也是在纽约州的乡村待过很多时间，觉得我从未真正准确地捕捉过这些地方。只是这些地方随着时间的变化，讲述一个犯罪故事会有所不同，不会像《侠盗猎车手》那种风格。这些地方不是你会设定《侠盗猎车手》游戏背景的地方，但它们看起来真的是很有趣而且未被充分探索的。当然，其中有夸张的元素，确实是稍微有些夸张的。
So let me take notes on this there's a spoiler alert I guess from the first day sure I believe uh there's a devout suburban Mormon who commits I think serial murder with a shovel as a former religious atonement he is not necessarily you know the sharpest tool in the box and his his his rather cynical boss is using his his religion and some of him states he's made to blackmail him into murdering business associates and of course there's this she experienced sort of two neighbors situation and each of them having a duality of who they are in terms of good and evil so there's a Wall Street transplant who wants to be a cowboy yes who loves to manually harvest bullsemen accurate I mean I'm yes this is the notice I've been taking.
让我把这个记下来，虽然有点剧透。我想说，从第一天开始，有一个虔诚的郊区摩门教徒，他可能用铁锹连续杀人，以此作为一种宗教赎罪。他可能并不是最聪明的人，而他那位颇为玩世不恭的上司利用他的宗教信仰和他犯下的一些错来威胁他，迫使他去杀掉商业合伙人。当然，这还涉及到两个邻居之间的复杂关系，每个人在善与恶之间都有双重性格。还有一位来自华尔街的移民，他想成为一名牛仔，并且热衷于手动采集公牛的精液。这些是我记下的笔记。
He is a he is a somewhat confused longevity obsessed right rich dude has run away to Wyoming and is living out an assortment of fantasies and bullsemen is a big component of longevity yes he's very into all the life hacking you know roiding hdh and making money and lost his mind living on a big ranch of course on the theme of satire there is a woman who sleeps in tactical gear and is consumed by unlike his piercies like especially pedophiles and DC yes based on someone I know who got completely red-pilled and I was fascinated by the fact that this was happening to people yeah so you know satire american culture quick pause back and break.
他是一个有点困惑、痴迷于长寿的有钱人，他逃到了怀俄明州，过着一系列幻想的生活。牛精液是长寿的重要组成部分，他非常热衷于所有关于"生命黑客"的事情，比如使用类固醇、注射生长激素和赚钱。他的生活逐渐失去控制，住在一个大牧场上。讽刺的是，有一个女人穿着战术装备入睡，对各种与他不同的事情充满仇恨，特别是恋童癖和华盛顿特区。这个故事基于我认识的一个人，她完全被颠覆性的思想影响了。我对这种情况在一些人身上发生的现象感到很着迷。这是对美国文化的讽刺，稍作停顿，然后再继续。
Sure I think GTA 5 had the biggest launch in video game history and GTA 6 has the potential to our topping that first of all do you think it will and more broadly what was your definition of success for a video game. I would assume it will because it's so anticipated an anticipation is best driver of early sales as we saw with the GTA 4 versus red dead redemption one you know GTA 4 farm line dissipated sold much better early on. So I would assume it will sell really well that was never my definition of success but you certainly wanted to make money you know you're spending someone's money so the number one success is are you making that money back plus a dollar at some level that has to be that has to be the single most important thing so you get to do it again you know you got big teams of people people you need to pay the rent you have to keep the lights on in the business so that you have to make a small profit if you think.
当然，我认为《GTA 5》是电子游戏历史上最大的发行，而《GTA 6》也有可能超过这一记录。首先，你认为它能做到吗？更广泛地说，你对视频游戏的成功定义是什么。我想它会成功，因为它备受期待，而期待通常是早期销量的最佳推动力，正如我们在《GTA 4》和《荒野大镖客：救赎》一对比中看到的，《GTA 4》因备受期待而在早期销量更好。所以我认为它肯定会卖得很好，不过这从来不是我对成功的定义。但是，你肯定希望能够赚钱，因为你在花别人的钱，所以首要的成功标准是能否收回成本并略有盈利。这样你才能继续开发下去。毕竟你有一个庞大的团队要养活，需要支付员工薪水以及维持公司的运营，所以必须要略有盈余。
In that way that keeps you being creative I think that was like trying to forget about that it's not really an option but we almost always did that we didn't quite always do that but we almost always did that I think the definition of success for me was had we tried to do new things and done achieved some of our goals and that was the thing that I'm at we're people responding to these worlds and these characters in a way that I wanted them to is it crazy to you that video games are able to make billions of dollars when you look at like the 80s and 90s you know nobody took video games seriously and even the knots and it and now they're basically it's very possible if you look at 10 20 years from now the video games surpass film as a way to consume stories I think they've possibly already done that in some ways and certainly as a as a business proposition everybody done that but I think that's not you know it's just as a way of telling stories I think they're better at telling certain kinds of stories and films are better other kinds of stories you know I think I think if you want a long discursive adventure a video game is better if you want a short tight experience a film is better.
为了保持创造力，我认为我们几乎总是试图忘记这不是一种选择。虽然我们没有每次都做到，但几乎总是这样。我对成功的定义是，是否尝试做了新事物并实现了一些目标。我关注的是人们是否按我希望的方式对这些世界和角色作出反应。你是否觉得奇怪，电子游戏能够赚取数十亿美元？回想在80年代和90年代，没人认真对待电子游戏，即便到了2000年代初也是如此。但现在，如果你展望未来10到20年，电子游戏可能会超过电影成为讲述故事的方式。我觉得在某些方面，它们可能已经做到了，尤其是作为商业模式。但我认为这并不是唯一评判标准，仅从叙述故事的角度来看，电子游戏擅长讲述某些类型的故事，而电影则擅长其他类型。我认为，如果你想要一个长篇探险故事，电子游戏更适合；而如果你想要一个紧凑的短篇体验，电影更合适。
We always felt games were the coming medium and so spent 20 years saying games of the future games of the future and you know being sneered at them being laughter them being I think people nod their heads and then it kind of happened so I will you know at the same time much as you might say something you don't necessarily believe it's going to be true but it has become true and I think still that games are only going to get better more interesting more creatively you know diverse you said that red dead redemption too in your opinion is the best thing you've ever done I think there's a strong case to be made it's the greatest game of all time what are the elements that make that game truly great do you think I think you had an incredibly strong team working together that was very experienced that had basically been in place since somewhere between 2001 and 2006 so it was a long experience team I think we got to spend a smaller group of us working on it from day one coming up with some weird wacky ideas that we got to embed in the game and then we kind of had to follow through with that I think was helpful that we got to be very creative before it had a full team on it.
我们一直认为游戏是未来的媒介，因此花了20年不断强调“游戏是未来”，即使期间我们受到了嘲笑和怀疑，然而最终这一切都实现了。当然，即便有时你可能并不完全相信这些预言会成真，但它们确实实现了。我依然认为游戏将会变得更好、更有趣、更具创意和多样化。你曾说过，《荒野大镖客2》是你认为自己做过的最好的作品，我觉得它可以称得上有史以来最伟大的游戏之一。你认为是什么元素让这款游戏如此出色呢？我认为是一个经验丰富的强大团队共同努力的结果，团队成员基本上从2001到2006年期间就开始合作，因此这是一个非常有经验的团队。我们中较小的一部分从一开始就参与其中，想出了一些奇怪而新颖的想法，这些想法也被实际融入到了游戏中，并一直贯穿到底。另一个有利因素是，我们在整个团队完全投入之前就有机会充分发挥创意。
I think that the cowboy setting is great because it gives a sort of mythic seriousness that sometimes doing stuff in a contemporary setting doesn't allow you know I think the closest we got to that kind of seriousness was GTA 4 but it just can't once you're setting things in the modern world they're too frenetic you can't get some of that slightly you know operatic feel that I love that some people think it's maybe the over the top but I love this kind of you know people searching for meaning within amongst the violence. I think the the West and all of the themes around the West really lend itself to that so I think that and then the the gunplay was fantastic and the horses were incredible so I think you had this combination of kind of technical know how a very very strong team and really strong material where did you have to go to in your mind maybe philosophical maybe spiritually to be able to create our dr world.
我认为西部牛仔的设定非常好，因为它赋予了一种神话般的严肃感，这是在现代背景下有时难以实现的。我觉得，我们最接近这种严肃感的作品是《侠盗猎车手4》，但一旦你将事情置于现代世界中，就太过紧凑，难以获得我所喜爱的那种略显歌剧式的感觉。有些人可能觉得这种感觉有些过头，但我喜欢这种在暴力中寻找意义的氛围。我认为，西部及其相关的主题非常适合营造这种氛围。此外，枪战场景非常精彩，马匹也表现得很出色。因此，我觉得这是一种技术实力、强大团队和优秀素材的结合。在创作我们的世界时，也许需要在心灵深处去探索，可能是哲学上的，也可能是精神上的。
So of course it was based on red dead revolver but that's yes that that's a fundamentally different I mean that leap into the great mythic story that was red dead redemption one and then even more so red dead redemption two that was unlike anything you or maybe anyone has ever created in video games thank you so like what drugs were involved no drugs okay no stop the drugs long before okay that's why did all that work yeah um had nothing else to do so open open well video games were very good for my mental health in that way kept me busy um but uh red so red dead I'll tell you I'll give you the my version now games are made by big teams yeah so I will give you my human interest version of the story from my perspective only.
当然，《荒野大镖客：救赎》是基于《红色死亡左轮手枪》这款游戏的，但那是一个本质上完全不同的东西。它是一部伟大的神话故事的飞跃，这就是《荒野大镖客：救赎1》，然后更甚者是《荒野大镖客：救赎2》。这与世界上任何人过去在电子游戏中创造的东西都不一样。谢谢，所以像是什么药物给了灵感？没有药物，好吧，很早之前就停用了药物。这就是为什么我完成了所有那些工作。嗯，因为没有其他事情可做，所以开放式的游戏对我的心理健康很有帮助，能让我保持忙碌。不过，关于《荒野大镖客》的情况，我现在给你讲我的版本。游戏是由大型团队制作的，所以我会从我个人的角度给出一个人性化的故事版本。
We we made red dead revolver decided that or finished red dead revolver that'd been a capcon game and they didn't want to finish it so we finished it and they released in Japan and we released it in the us in I think 2004 um and decided we would start work on our world cowboy game for ps3 didn't think too much more about it and that was what much for the stuff to work on and slowly 2005 2006 the game started to come to life began to uh meet with the the lead designer christian kandamesa and thrash out a few ideas and story ideas for for the game and begin to think about some stuff and start thinking about what works no more game what works for a cowboy game and again was being lazy or procrastinating.
我们制作《荒野大镖客：左轮》的时候，那本来是个卡普空的游戏，但他们不想完成这个项目，所以我们接手并完成了它。游戏在日本发行，而我们在美国发行是在2004年。接着，我们决定为PS3开发一款自己的牛仔世界的游戏，但最初并没有太多想法，仅仅是作为一个项目慢慢开始。到2005年和2006年，游戏开始逐渐成形，我们与首席设计师Christian Kandamesa会面，交流了一些概念和故事创意，开始考虑什么元素适合牛仔游戏，以及什么能够有效地运作。但在这个过程中，我们有时也会有些懒散和拖延。
Can we just do the small tangents uh when you mentioned you take notes when you're being lazy what what are those notes look like are they like either either a yellow pad or a blackberry in those days or an iPhone in these days I'll write the subject matter and then email myself a note uh here's a good idea is a good idea and those all it drums might be scribbling on a pad um and then I'll assemble if I if they're done digitally then I'll do I'll assemble them into one long word file and then I'll look at them and you know here's an idea is an idea is an idea and see if it comes to anything see if I know aggregate them together and then read through them.
我们可以聊一聊这个小插曲吗？当你提到在偷懒的时候记笔记，那些笔记是什么样的呢？它们是用黄色便签纸写的吗？或者在过去是用黑莓手机写的，现在是用iPhone写的。我通常会写下主题内容，然后给自己发邮件，记下一些“这是个好主意”的笔记。有时这些笔记可能是随手在纸上写的，然后我会把它们整理成一个很长的Word文件，然后仔细阅读这些笔记。这样我就能看看有没有什么好点子可以发掘，看看能不能把它们组合在一起，最终形成一些具体的想法。
I there's anything go here in there in a some of the character like this a character like that this would be a funny line this is a line for the main character actually make the main character work like this you know what about this relationship um as a start to just play around with what about restart in that place go to that place just just start to play around with all of the different bits and pieces and we begun to flesh out some flow for the start of the game and this idea you'd start in Dusty American West which meant we didn't have to make too many trees and then go to Mexico and then come back um and we had a sort of loose flow and I was really scared of writing any actual dialogue.
如果要把这些角色，比如这样或那样的角色，放在某个地方，这可能会成为一个有趣的场景。这是为主要角色准备的台词，其实应该让主角这样表现。关于角色之间的关系，可以从某个地方开始尝试设计，或者去另一个地方，以探索不同的元素。我们开始为游戏的开头设计一些流程。我们的想法是，游戏最初设定在尘土飞扬的美国西部，这样我们就不需要设计太多的树木，然后再去墨西哥，再返回。我们有一个松散的流程，但我对真正写对话感到很害怕。
And I didn't have a clue how to go about it and I could go it'll come it'll come and then um and I kept I could postpone if ages could do GTA 4 and I kept worrying about it and then GT my work was wrapped on GTA 4 but the game was now yet and we've done a bunch of marketing stuff and I had a little window when I wasn't doing much else and I took a week with my then girlfriend now wife who was heavily pregnant with our first child and we went up to a house upstate and sat there in the wash she sat there cooking for me or watching TV or reading and I went and sat in the room all day every day and just sat there instead of the computer and tried to think about how can I do this that it doesn't sound ridiculous how can you write in a cowboy idiom that feels both slightly contemporary but also gives the game this sort of life and this weight that I want it to have and think we can think we can get away with.
我完全不知道该如何着手做这件事。当时我只能去想“会有办法的，会有办法的”。然后，我一直拖延这件事，想着自己可以一直推迟下去，直到完成《GTA 4》。但我心里一直为此担忧。等到我的工作在《GTA 4》上告一段落，游戏还没发布的时候，我们已经做了很多市场宣传。这时，我有了一个小空档，没有太多其他事情要做。
于是，我和当时的女友（现在的妻子）一起度过了一周。她当时怀着我们第一个孩子，我们去了州外的一座房子。在那里，她为我做饭，或者看电视、读书，而我每天整天坐在房间里，对着电脑苦思冥想。我想如何以一种不显得荒谬的方式去撰写一种牛仔风格的对话，这种风格既有一点现代感，但同时又能赋予游戏我想要的那种生命力和厚重感。我相信我们能做到。
And after about three days it just started to come and then suddenly I wrote about nine ten scenes in the next couple of days and after that you had it and it was a bit I don't know if it was that was why there was so much about a character caring about his family because I was just beginning the process of having a family oh I don't know. to what extent that blade in there but I think it blade in there to some extent so that was part of the creating the 360 degree characters I think so here's this man that is capable of involved in a lot of violence who's also care is about a family grown up and is trying to step away from that and be and be a man be a grown up and can he get away from it and then and then when he can't get away from it what's he willing to do to save his family and that was I felt starting to get some idea feeling just I mean she hadn't given birth yet but I was beginning to grab with the ideas of I'm going to become a parent so I hope some of that and obviously then it important right more for six months later on I had a had a child but certainly for that first bit I think some of that began to bleed in there.
大约三天后，我渐渐找到了灵感，然后在接下来的几天里，我突然写了大约九到十个场景。之后，我就有了一个完整的构思。我不确定这是否是我写了一个非常关心家庭的角色的原因，因为那时我正开始组建自己的家庭。虽然我不确定这种心境在其中的影响到底有多大，但我觉得或多或少有一些影响。这有助于我创造出一个全方位的角色：一个参与许多暴力活动但同时也关爱家庭的人，他希望从过去走出来，成为一个成熟的男人。他能否摆脱过去？如果无法摆脱，为了保护他的家人，他愿意做到什么程度？我觉得自己开始逐渐理解这些想法。虽然我的孩子还没出生，但正在思考为人父母的责任。希望这些感受能够融入到我的创作中。事实证明，六个月后我就有了孩子，但对于最初的创作阶段来说，这些感受确实有一些影响。
You got the feeling that you can actually do it it's true it's it could have very easily been ridiculous and not believable the dialogue between conboys yes I mean there's probably so much work went into making it feel real and believable and and like that like like a Shakespearean type of drama but not the cheesy kind well just wanted it to feel when they spoke I mean I mean I love dialogue I'm always you know I love the sound of words but just wanted to feel like when they sounded it didn't sound cheesy it didn't sound ridiculous you wanted to hit and speak more it didn't make you cringe awfully when they spoke that was the it's some level that was all the goal was and then they felt like this guy was going to go on this life and death odyssey and you cared about him you got to care about his wife and child that he left behind even you didn't know them.
你有一种感觉，觉得自己真的可以做到这一点，这是真的。与其说这种对话在某种程度上容易显得荒唐和不可信，不如说在牛仔之间的对话其实下了很多功夫，使其显得真实可信，像莎士比亚式的戏剧，但不是那种俗气的，我只想让他们说话的时候感觉自然。我真的热爱对话，喜欢文字的声音，只是想确保他们说话时不显得俗套或荒唐，而是能够打动人心。当他们说话时，并不会让你感到极度尴尬，这其实就是目标。同时，让你感受到这个人将踏上一段生死的旅程，而你会关心他。即便你并不认识他，也会关心他留下的妻子和孩子。
When did you know how you're going to end Red Dead Redemption 1 I remember we did a meeting with the Christian designer I can't remember what year probably some point late 2008 early 2009 and we were discussing the last bit and and said I think he's got a die and he leapt on the idea went that yeah yes yes and then I went and I can't work games can't work like that they can't work if he's dead and then I began to think through war if we just technically it doesn't work because you have to be able to finish all the stuff up and then began to think through actually I think we can make it work if we do it this way and so he then really pushed for that idea and it seemed to I was I was still torn I thought it was clever narratively but I was torn if it was going to work technically as a piece of game design but I think it did yeah and spoiler alert of course.
你是什么时候决定要如何结束《荒野大镖客1》的？我记得我们曾经跟设计师Christian开会，我不太记得是哪一年，大概是2008年末到2009年初。我们在讨论最后的部分，我说我觉得主角必须死去，他非常赞同这个想法，然后我想，游戏不能这样设计，主角死了游戏就没法继续了。然后我开始考虑，我们可能在技术上不能实现所有内容的结局。但是后来我又继续思考，发现其实可以通过某种方式实现这个想法，于是他非常支持这个观点。尽管我仍然犹豫，因为我认为，从故事叙述的角度来看这个结局很巧妙，但从游戏设计的技术角度上看，我对其可行性持保留意见。不过，我认为最终还是实现了。当然，这里有剧透。
How do we tell the story of that well so he goes through a lot he does all the John does all the dirty work of hunting down his old gang and he finally is able to go home and be with his family be on the ranch and then the government betrays him a sense troops to kill him and there is dialogue I mean that's just I think the two times I shed a tear in video game history for me is that dialogue I think John talking to his wife if I vaguely remember I think he said I love you but he said very look he didn't he made it seem like he's going to see her and his son shortly that dialogue was masterfully done like a definition of like less is more it was just so crisp that and of course the other one is again from memory Arthur writing his horse and the music is playing it's very hard not to share the tear during that anyway the dialogue of John talking to his wife at the end when he's in a barn and it's about to walk out to face certain death do you remember writing that.
如何讲述这个故事呢？我们可以把它说成：约翰经历了许多磨难，他承担起了追捕旧日帮派的所有肮脏工作，最后终于能够回到家人身边，在牧场上生活。然而，政府背叛了他，派兵来杀他。对话在此时显得尤为重要。在我的电子游戏体验中，只有两次让我流下眼泪，一次就是在这个对话中。记不太清楚，约翰好像对他的妻子说“我爱你”，但他说得很隐晦，仿佛想让她觉得他还会很快再见到她和他的儿子。这个对话精彩无比，完美诠释了“少即是多”的定义，简洁而有力。当然，另一次让我感动的，是亚瑟骑着他的马，音乐响起，很难不掉眼泪。无论如何，约翰在最后时刻与他的妻子在谷仓里的对话，准备走出来自然是要面对死亡，你还记得写下那些对话的情形吗？
Oh yeah yeah but it does again I want I the actor was so good and we're seeing a bunch of his work by then he gets such a good he was so good at reading those lines that I knew he could give us that you could feel with that point like I think those lines are best when they're really short and punchy and I knew he'd be able to make that line sound good so you were imagining his voice yeah and and I think all of those actors on on on Red Dead Redemption 1 were so strong that they really bought that game to life if they them and Rod the director and done such such a good job it would have sounded cheesy as hell.
哦，是的，是的，但我想说的是，这名演员当时表现得非常出色，我们看了很多他的作品，他真的非常擅长诠释那些台词，我知道他能给我们带来那种感受。我觉得那些台词最好的时候就是短小而有力，而我知道他能让那句台词听起来很棒，所以你可以想象他的声音。是的，我认为《荒野大镖客1》中的所有演员都非常强大，是他们和导演Rod一起赋予了这款游戏生命，否则听起来就会非常俗套。
Yeah you've said that the ending of that ending of RDR1 is one of the best things you've been a part of creating why why why is why is that ending so powerful to you what does it represent um I think because for the story to work I mean just from it from a technical challenge for the story to work he had to die but for a game to work it felt like a challenge to make him die it was probably the 4th or 6th open world game I'd worked on and I you know spent all his years before that working out how these stories worked how to make them work technically how to make them feel right how they interacted with the open form gameplay as best I could and suddenly we're going to break one of our golden rules which was at the end of the game you're free in the character to go and wrap up all the side stories to play forever we're not going to be talking about to do that in this game because the guy's going to be dead and we're going to have to have you play as a different character and the narrative is it is going to be if we've done a good job compelling enough where you're not going to care about that and or you're going to be upset that he's dead but you're going to actually have this emotional moment.
你曾经提到《荒野大镖客：救赎》的结局是你参与创作过的最出色的结局之一，为什么这个结局对你来说如此强大，代表了什么呢？我想是因为为了让这个故事成立，从技术挑战的角度来看，他必须死。但对于一个游戏来说，让他死掉是一项挑战。这可能是我参与的第四或第六个开放世界游戏。在此之前，我花了很多年研究故事的运作方式，如何从技术上让它们成立，如何让它们感觉正确，以及它们如何与开放世界的玩法互动得更好。突然之间，我们要打破我们的一条黄金法则，那就是在游戏的结尾，玩家自由地操控角色去完成所有的支线故事，可以一直玩下去。但是在这个游戏中，我们无法做到这一点，因为主角死了，而且玩家必须扮演另一个角色。如果我们做得好，故事会足够引人入胜，让你不会在意这一点，或者你会因为他的死而感到难过，并且真正经历一个情感的时刻。
Um so I think it was a big risk from a technical perspective us to do that and then it worked so I think that was something very really really full of fear and it worked out okay I mean people really upset and angry at us for doing it because anything was going to happen but I think they also had that kind of experience you're describing it's that kind of creative moment where you know transcendent moment with characters in a piece of fiction which is what we always aspire to giving people I mean it's incredible because I don't think I don't remember a single video game that has done that before. Well I would like to have at the end of GTA 4 kill Nico but you couldn't do it you know the game doesn't work so it was this thing where we hadn't done it thought about doing it hadn't done it and then going well let's do it let's let's take the risk and do it we can't do it let's try it try and it and it worked.
嗯，我觉得从技术角度来看，我们做出这个决定是个很大的冒险，然后结果居然成功了。这件事充满了恐惧，但后来还不错。我是说，当时很多人真的对我们感到沮丧和愤怒，因为大家都觉得可能会出问题。不过，我认为他们也经历了你所描述的那种体验，是一种创造性的时刻——一种超越时空的时刻，就像在小说中的人物一样，这是我们一直希望带给人们的体验。这太不可思议了，因为我想不起有哪款电子游戏曾经做过这样的尝试。我本来希望能在《GTA 4》的结局中让尼可被杀掉，但你无法实现，因为游戏不配合。所以这是件我们以前没做过的事，虽然想过但没实现，然后决定冒这个险去做。我们本以为做不到，但尝试了一下，结果竟然成功了。
Yeah what about the decision with the sun you know John give so much effort to make sure that Jack doesn't end up in a life of violence and then it uh I mean it's very Godfather like it's he dragged back into it through revenge that was also the game still had to work as a game whether that was the right ending 100% the best ending from a pure storytelling perspective I don't know um but I know that we had to make the game work interesting so it was I think it was I think it kind of worked in that way where where Jack can't escape but I always also wanted a version of it where Jack did escape but that wasn't you know it both were interesting to me.
对啊，那么关于太阳的决定呢，你知道的，约翰付出了很多努力，以确保杰克不会陷入暴力的生活。但这有点像《教父》的情节，他因为复仇而被重新拖入。游戏本身也必须作为一款游戏而运作，不论这个结局是否是100%正确或最好的叙述方式，我不确定。但我知道我们必须让游戏保持有趣，所以我觉得它在某种程度上是有效的。杰克无法逃脱这个命运，但我一直想有一个版本是杰克能逃脱的，不过这两种结局对我来说都很有意思。
Can you just dig in a little deeper like what do you mean both for the game to work it's such a direct it's like a kubar talking about for this movie to work it has to have because from my perspective I just think about the story what's the technical aspect of the game to work you know the mechanical experience is you have an avatar you control and you you know the games don't really end and you have to be able to wander around the world and do stuff so at the end of the game you have to be able to wander around with your fairly limited set of features which is you can you know run up to someone and punch them or run up to someone and shoot them or run up to someone and rob them or run up to someone and talk to them and that's kind and or run up and you know jump on a horse or or do all this other stuff in order for the game still to be fun and people to get this full 360 degree experience with it they had to you know 100 if they wanted a 100% the game as opposed just finishing the story you have to have an avatar to do that stuff when so that was that was the sort of challenge of Jack's character slash wrapping up the story is Jack although there's real power for the avatar to end the finiteness.
您能深入一点解释吗？就像是为了让游戏运作，您所说的“两者都需要”到底是什么意思？感觉就像库布里克（Kubar）谈论电影运作一样，它需要某些要素。从我的角度来看，我只会想到故事情节。那么从技术角度来看，游戏要如何运作呢？在机械体验上，你有一个可以控制的角色，游戏实际上没有明确的结束点，你需要能够在虚拟世界中自由探索并进行各种活动。
在游戏结束时，你的角色功能可能相对有限，但你可以做的事情包括：跑向某人并攻击他们、开枪、抢劫或交谈等，甚至是骑上马。这些都是为了让游戏继续保持乐趣，让玩家体验全面的360度体验。如果玩家想真正“100%通关”而不仅仅是完成故事情节，他们就需要通过这个角色来实现这些互动。
这也是Jack这个角色及其故事结局的挑战所在。虽然对化身来说，结束这一切是有意义的，但为了让游戏运作，这种角色的互动是必需的。
Yeah both the red dead see obviously change avatar which we've got you know and then did it again I think there's something interesting about that moment you change from one character to another because they are you and they're not you you know and then just something to someone else I mean I was really shaken by that experience but it's a it's a beautiful experience it's like an unforgettable experience that what else can video games possibly reach for yeah that's to create that experience that's what great films do that's what great great great books do it's that I mean it's that and the world booting games I think that experience of being in this fake place and then taken on these narrative adventures when that combines you've got the amazing experience.
是的，《荒野大镖客》系列当然都很出色，尤其是当你更换角色时。有趣的是，当你从一个角色切换到另一个角色时，他们既是你，又不是你。这种转变让你成为某个人物，同时也是成为某种他者。我被这种体验深深打动了，这真的是一种美丽而难忘的体验，这也是电子游戏的最高境界所在。这就是伟大的电影或者伟大的书籍所能做到的，那种身处虚拟世界并沉浸于叙述冒险中的体验结合在一起，就能带来令人惊叹的体验。
So who do you think is the best character you've ever created in RDR? So to me, I think definitively Arthur from Red Dead Redemption 2 is the best character ever created in video games ever. I think there's not even—I mean John—who would be the same, which is hilarious to say, but like those are John will be a close second. But Arthur is definitively, and you've talked about in that interview, you said that a lot of video games work on the same premise that you start as a weak person and end up as a strong superhero. But what if he starts as a tough guy, someone who already is very strong, someone that is emotionally confident of his place in the world?
那么，你认为你在《荒野大镖客》中创造的最佳角色是谁呢？对我来说，我觉得《荒野大镖客2》中的亚瑟绝对是有史以来电子游戏中最出色的角色。我认为甚至不用提——我意思是约翰——虽然说起来有点好笑，但约翰肯定是紧随其后的第二名。不过，亚瑟毋庸置疑是最棒的。你在采访中也提到过，很多电子游戏都是基于一个相同的套路：你从一个弱小的人开始，到后来成长为一个强大的超级英雄。但如果角色一开始就是一个硬汉，是一个已经非常强大且对自己在世界中的位置充满信心的人，那会怎么样呢？
Arthur's journey is not about becoming a superhero because he's almost one at the start, but it's about an intellectual roller coaster when his worldview gets taken apart. So it's very different than the normal journey of a character, yeah, in a game. In a game, to reverse it, so there were a couple other themes that matched that. So they're guys from the Wild West, but they're being pushed ever further east, so it's almost like an anti-western. An eastern—you’re traveling east, you’re traveling into civilization.
亚瑟的旅程并不是要成为超级英雄，因为在开始时他就几乎是一个了，而是一次智力上的过山车，因为他的世界观被彻底颠覆。所以这与通常角色的旅程非常不同，特别是在一款游戏中。为了反转这种常规，还有几个其他主题与之相匹配。这些来自狂野西部的人不断被推向东部，所以这几乎像是一种反西部的旅程。你向东旅行，你是在走向文明。
And I don't think I would have been grappling with those ideas earlier in my career because I was over here. The side of getting a different kind of strength and a different kind of weakness was interesting. What about the component of mortality of a character facing his own mortality over a prolonged period? So just realizing the prospect of like real sort of fear of death, realization of death. Yeah, I thought that was really part of the story, really a fun thing to play with. John dies in Red Dead One, and I wanted to top that if he—Red Dead Two—or do that in a different way. And so the idea that it’s, but John's death is fairly sudden.
我认为，如果在我职业生涯的早期阶段，我可能不会思考这些问题，因为那时候我的侧重点在其他地方。我对获得不同类型的力量和经历不同形式的弱点感兴趣。至于一个角色面临自己长时间的死亡命运中包含的死亡观念，就开始意识到那种对死亡的真正恐惧和死亡的现实。这确实是故事的一部分，也是一个很有趣的探讨。我想超越《荒野大镖客1》里约翰死亡的情节——或者以另一种方式来呈现。而约翰的死是相当突然的。
And so if he's got this long drawn-out death, and then I'd always been obsessed by TB as diseases go. It's a great literary device, you know, because it is this long drawn-out slow death, but in which you are also getting weaker. My grandfather actually had TB before they invented antibiotics and was sent to a sanatorium just after he had his child, my father, and survived, but only three of them out of like 35 survived. So I was always captivated by TB as an illness. It felt like it was an interesting thing to play around with as an idea, this guy getting weaker who felt like he was immortal, and essentially was immortal—he was the protagonist in a video game, he could not die, and suddenly he is becoming mortal.
因此，如果他说他经历了一场漫长而缓慢的死亡，我一直对肺结核这种病很着迷。作为一种文学手法，它非常有用，因为这是一种漫长而缓慢的死亡过程，同时患者会逐渐变弱。我的祖父在抗生素发明之前得过肺结核，在他有了孩子也就是我的父亲之后，被送往疗养院，最终幸存下来，但在大约35人中只有三人活了下来。所以我一直被肺结核这种疾病所吸引。我觉得作为一个想法，这种逐渐变弱的情境非常有趣，尤其是对于一个本以为自己不朽，而实际上是“永生”的人来说——他是电子游戏中的主角，不会死，可现在他却开始变得凡人。
And you know, but that helps him see stuff. I thought that was a different way of doing a lead character in a game. Yeah, do you think it's the greatest character we ever created? I think he's the best lead character, you know. The lead characters are different from the side characters, and I think he's the most rounded and works the best. I kind of him and Nico are the two I like, you know—they were the two most ambitious. Yeah, for me it's always. it's always sort of a toss up you know but then I loved all the stuff like the the the art team did such an amazing job it was their idea with the journal and that kind of like the way that all the features worked into Arthur's character I thought that was really he really rounded he worked in a really lots of different ways really well
你知道，这对他理解事物很有帮助。我认为这是在游戏中塑造主角的不同方式。你觉得这是我们创造的最伟大角色吗？我认为他是最出色的主角。主角和配角是不同的，我觉得他是最丰满、最成功的。我有点喜欢他和Nico——他们是我最喜欢的两个角色，也是最具雄心的。对我来说，这总是一种取舍，但我真的很喜欢美术团队的工作，他们在日记本和所有特性融入Arthur性格方面做得非常出色。我觉得这真的让他变得非常立体，并且以各种不同的方式非常好地运作。
I loved like his flawed relationship with his old girlfriend things like that all the side you know the bits that kind of turned up around him so you also like the side characters you like the the flavor the the the full cast what what are some of the favorites you've created I'm sure the one you're currently working on that Dave that's it you called them a side character he's not a protagonist he's like he's a god not a catcher so he's not him I'm enjoying I love Dutch you know it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him for the first game and the actor did such a such an amazing job that when he spoke it just came to me all of their backstory which I've been playing around with by that point anyway a little bit in my head
我喜欢他与旧女友的不完美关系，类似的事情，还有围绕在他身边的那些小细节。所以你也喜欢配角，你喜欢这些增添风味的角色，全体演员中你最喜欢哪些角色？我相信你正在创作的角色中有一个叫戴夫的，你称他为配角，他不是主角，他就像是一个不太抢眼的角色，但我很享受这个过程。我喜欢达奇，这部分是因为我们在第一个游戏中为他写了几句台词，而演员的表现非常出色，当他开口的时候，他所有的背景故事就自然浮现在我脑海中。实际上，在那时我已经在脑子里想过这些故事情节。
but I knew it was this bigger gang stuff and then I sort of saw exactly who he was and so that was that that felt like he felt like a living character to me it was just say that Dutch is kind of like maybe a little bit of a godlike figure yeah in both of the red everdemption games and he's the leader of the gang and there's father son relationship with Dutch with the I mean with Arthur with John I mean there's there's a family feeling to the gang they explore all those dynamics and then the feeling of betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis you're going against the family going against the father because he is transforming his sense of the world of morality of all those kinds of things so all the kind of very Shakespearean dramas right there
我意识到这是一个更大的帮派事情，然后我逐渐看清了他的真实身份。对我来说，Dutch感觉像是一个活生生的角色。他在《荒野大镖客》游戏中有点像神一样的人物，是帮派的头领，与Arthur和John之间有一种父子般的关系。帮派中有一种家庭的感觉，他们探索了所有这些关系动态。然后就是背叛的感觉，Arthur罹患肺结核，他要对抗家庭、对抗父亲，因为他的世界观和道德观都在转变。这一切都像是莎士比亚式的戏剧。
and Dutch is a prominent godlike figure through all of that also flawed himself also a man of good and evil in that framework that they're operating under he's just drowning in his ego you know he goes the better of him I think he's a but he but there was something in the flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger and that's mostly off camera but and then just you know always been as an individual I've always been very susceptible to charming people and he's charming and so I always kind of I can see how people get captivated by charming people
荷兰始终是一个显著的神话般的人物，虽然他自身也有缺陷，是一个善恶兼具的人。在他们所处的框架下，他深陷于自己的自负之中，可以说他的自负占据了上风。我认为他是一个有缺点但在年轻时因理想主义而美丽的人，尽管这一点大多是在镜头外呈现的。同时，作为一个个体，我总是很容易被有魅力的人吸引，而他正是这样一个有魅力的人，所以我可以理解人们为什么会被这些有魅力的人迷住。
and the idea here was a very charming person and the roads run out for him I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma yeah because it can collage his judgment about human nature completely and that's what he that's what's happened with him and it ended up clouding his judgment about himself he kind of fell for his own rubbish yeah but also he clouded Arthur's judgment oh completely Arthur was completely you know platonically in love with him he was worshipping him he'd given up his power to him and then I think farther the journey is retaking that power in the moment of dying you know that's what that's what I thought
这里的意思是，一个非常有魅力的人在某种程度上失去了自己的方向。我个人也害怕自己有多么热爱人类，以及我对魅力和个人魅力多么容易受到影响，因为这可能会完全影响我对人性的判断。这也就是这个人所经历的，他最终对自己产生了错误的判断。他有点被自己的谎言迷住了。此外，他还影响了亚瑟的判断。亚瑟完全被他的魅力吸引，可以说是柏拉图式地爱着他，崇拜着他，把自己的权力都交给了他。我认为在临终的那一刻，亚瑟的旅程就是重新夺回属于他的权力。
I would be interesting yes truly tragic for Arthur to be losing his identity lifelong identity and the sense of belonging and losing his life at the same time in facing the mortality he is realizing that he's not all of it has been a lie but he gets to do some what depends on what the choices you make but he gets to do some good yes and so he you know he gets his moment of redemption just a little bit but realizing your whole life you've been living not a good life yes you've been not a good man there's nothing we're all afraid of I guess it's never too late to change your voice so the biggest most important question primary central to the reason we're talking today the number one question from the internet it is so ridiculous but I must ask have you seen Gavin who is Gavin so for more context there's a guy named Nigel in red advenention 2 who's frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin throughout the game this has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst the interwebs the rdr fan base.
我觉得确实很悲哀，阿瑟正在失去他一生的身份认同和归属感，同时也要面对生命的终结。在这种情况下，他意识到他的一生并非完全是谎言，但他有机会做些好事。这取决于他做出的选择，可以获得一定的救赎。虽然意识到自己一生都没有过上好日子，也不是一个好人，这令人恐惧，但改变永远不会太晚。
今天我们谈话的核心问题，也是网上最热门的问题，虽然非常荒谬，但我必须问：你见过加文吗？加文是谁？为提供更多背景，在《荒野大镖客2》中，有一个叫奈杰尔的人疯狂寻找一个叫加文的神秘人，这已成为网络上RDR粉丝群体中的最大谜团之一。
So the theories include theory one is it's split personality disorder Nigel himself is Gavin so the evidence is the letter for this theory that has some evidence that maybe due to trauma the split personality disorder was created this Gavin was created inside Nigel's mind theory 2 is Gavin is dead and Nigel simply in denial theory 3 is that it's just a troll and rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery to drive players crazy I also heard theory 4's Gavin is the strange man so there's this fascinating character the strange man this supernatural character that has a presence in rdr1 and a little bit in rdr2 also yeah so which theory is closest to the truth not 3 or 4 somewhere in my mind somewhere between 1 and 2 yeah I just love the way he shouted Gavin it just abused me so some level it probably is trolling in that we didn't want it to be a totally clear mystery you wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it but it was meant to be without ever fully being explained that Gavin's not there anymore Gavin's either gone home Gavin's left him Gavin's and we were going to keep exploring that idea he was going to reappear in some way or other.
这些理论包括以下几种：
理论一是分裂人格障碍，奈杰尔本人就是加文。这个理论的证据是在某封信中，这可能是由创伤引起的分裂人格障碍在奈杰尔的脑中创造了加文。
理论二是加文已经去世，奈杰尔只是在否认现实。
理论三是这只是一个恶作剧，Rockstar故意创造了一个无解的谜题来让玩家抓狂。
我还听说了理论四：加文是“神秘人”。这个迷人的角色“神秘人”在《荒野大镖客1》中出现过，还有一点在《荒野大镖客2》中。
那么哪个理论最接近真相呢？不是理论三或四，而是在我心中更接近于理论一和二之间。我只是喜欢他喊“加文”的方式，这让我感到有些搞笑。在某种程度上，这可能是在恶作剧，因为我们不想让这个谜团变得完全清晰。我们希望它具有一点冒险性，但它的意图从来没有被完全解释过，加文不再在那里了，加文要么回家了，要么离开了他，我们还想继续探索这个想法，加文本可能会以某种方式重新出现。
Did you have any idea how much imagination excitement and curiosity that little interaction would inspire people yes and no I mean you never know what people are going to find amusing in these big games and all of it comes down to acting as well the guy was just funny when he said Gavin it was just funny yeah you know but there was a ped in red red in rdr1 the ever was obsessed by and I really wasn't expecting that so we try and put a few characters in I mean Gavin was supposed to be amusing I thought he was amusing but you never know what's what people are obsessed by there are other characters I think are funny and the people don't even notice them you know although they see them in a completely different way.
你有没有想过那次简短的互动会给人们带来多大的想象力、兴奋和好奇心？可以说是有，又可以说是没有。我是说，你永远不知道人们会在这些大型游戏中发现什么有趣的东西，这一切也归结于表演。当那个家伙说“Gavin”的时候，真的是很搞笑，是吧？不过在《荒野大镖客1》里，有个NPC角色让我意想不到地受到了关注，我们尽量加入一些角色。我本来以为Gavin是个有趣的角色，但你永远不知道人们会迷上什么。我认为还有其他一些角色很有趣，但人们甚至没有注意到他们，或者以完全不同的方式看待他们。
Did you have a part in writing the letter yeah I can't remember if I wrote it or either I wrote it or mic wrote it or we both wrote it I really can't remember to honest with you yeah certainly would have edited it and Mike might have written it or I might have written I really can't remember it's so fascinating because that little piece of writing and of course you have thousands of pages yeah that little piece of writing gets like analyzed oh but we certainly talked about it in in depth and if Mike was here I'd ask it he might remember I can't really do so much of those things and I loved the use of letters in red dead to tell all these weird backstories and some became very clear and some were still a little kind of opaque but I did general vibe was there was no Gavin either there was no Gavin or we long since left so it's kind of a split person out you know and then we were gonna over subsequent games that provide more information.
你参与写信了吗？嗯，我记不清楚了。不知道我写了，或者是麦克写了，或者我们两个一起写的。我真的记不得了，说实话。嗯，我肯定会编辑它，可能是麦克写的，也可能是我写的。我真的记不清。这真有趣，因为那小片段的文字被详细分析了，尽管我们有成千上万页的资料。我们确实深入讨论过这个话题，如果麦克在这儿，我会问问他，因为他可能还记得。我真的不太记得那些事情了。我特别喜欢在《荒野大镖客》里用信件讲述这些奇怪的背景故事，有些变得非常明确，而有些则仍然有点模糊。但总体的感觉是没有加文，或者说加文早已离去，所以就像是有两种可能性。然后我们计划在接下来的游戏中提供更多信息。
So in some sense you yourself don't quite know you kind of an idea so he could like like which way do you lean more theory one or two is he dead in the guy and and that goes into Nile or is there a real communication going side to side no Gavin existed so it wasn't that he was a split personality and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game were we gonna reveal that Gavin was dead or was Gavin gonna turn up having long since abandoned this maniac you know that was what we're still playing around with I think the idea was that he was never gonna meet he was never gonna meet Gavin in this game.
所以在某种意义上，你自己也不太确定这种想法。因此，他可能会想：你更倾向于哪个理论，一号理论还是二号理论？他是否在那个人体内死去，并且进入了虚无，或者有没有可能存在真正的交流对话，而不是加文是否存在的分裂人格。唯一没有决定的是，在未来的一场游戏中，我们是否会揭示加文已经去世，或者加文是否会出现，尽管早已抛弃了这个疯子。我们还在这个问题上进行讨论。我认为想法是他在这个游戏中永远不会见到加文。
It's just it's just fascinating because you have to think about all of that you have to write all of that you have to have those discussions you have to have those debates and it has to feel fresh that was what we've done before constantly looking as you do you know think I did you know somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games got to do stuff that's new it can't repeat itself too much I mean we also live in the age of the internet just like you realize there's like millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is. Thank God it's like it's fascinating that they're having is they think about people reading like James Joyce or something and think about the care like breaking apart Ulysses and think about like arguing about different interpretations of it. At to me that in itself is also beautiful.
这真的很吸引人，因为你必须考虑所有这些事情，必须去写，去讨论，去辩论，而且这些讨论和辩论还得给人耳目一新的感觉。这正是我们之前一直在做的，你知道的，我做过大概15到20个这样的游戏，必须不断推出新的内容，不能太过重复。毕竟我们生活在互联网时代，就像你发现有数百万人在关心加文是谁、在哪里。很高兴看到这种情况，让我联想到有人在读詹姆斯·乔伊斯的作品，比如拆解《尤利西斯》，为不同的解读争论不休。我觉得这本身也是一种美。
Yeah we want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point but you still want you want these discussions. Yeah you want as long as it feels totally appropriate for this whole big sort of shaggy dog story experience you're making. It's Gavin was just about and he was so weird and he just was intrinsically of just something funny about an English person screaming Gavin I don't know why. Yeah some of that humor I mean there's there's there's a certain red-dead redemption of this humor but there's a lot of ingrath of thought and what it's hard to put into words why that's funny why it becomes mean why it becomes viral because it's just funny it's.
是的，我们希望某些次要谜团能够在某种程度上被解开，但同时你也希望能够激发讨论。只要整个庞大的、看似漫无边际的故事体验看起来完全合适，你就想这么做。Gavin这个人物真是太有趣了，他有种与生俱来的滑稽感，尤其是一个英国人在大喊“Gavin”时的情景，我也不知道为什么。是的，这种幽默有点类似于《荒野大镖客》中的幽默，不过其中也包含了很多思考。很难用语言来解释为什么这会很搞笑，为什么它会变得刻薄，为什么它会变成网络上的热门话题，因为它就是很有趣。
Yeah I know why I think it's funny but I you what you can't what I'm not going to doing at least is going this thing will become really popular online and this other thing won't. You can create this bunch of you know 50 different side things that people might get captivated by and you just do not know what they're going to respond to. How do you know when something's funny is is you just feel it. I know what I think it's funny it's you know it makes it go away. It's ridiculous as well that was just there's nothing funny about a dude shouting Gavin a lot. He just said it in a fight I just thought it might be funny and he just said it in such a funny way yeah and then it just became funny.
我知道为什么我觉得这很搞笑，但你不能确定什么东西会在网上真的变得很火，而另一些则不会。你可以创造出一大堆类似的东西，也许有50种不同的方向，会吸引人们的注意，但你永远不知道他们会对什么有反应。怎么知道某样东西好笑呢？就是一种感觉。我知道我觉得有趣的地方在于它能让烦恼消失。而且，说真的，一个人在大喊“加文”并没有什么好笑的。只是他在争吵中用很搞笑的方式说出来，然后它就变得搞笑了。
We often have those side characters and they're not that funny and I think they're going to be hysterical and then you put them in the game and they're all for their fine but they're not amazing that guy just bought that stuff to life. Yeah and it's a backstory too I mean Londoner and not yeah that was what you know just there's something sometimes fun and I know an English person saying then Gavin yeah I don't know why.
我们经常有那些配角角色，他们并不那么搞笑。我以为他们会很有趣，但当你把他们放进游戏里时，他们只是表现得不错，但并不惊艳。然而，那个人真的让这些角色栩栩如生。而且，这背后还有一个背景故事——他是个伦敦人。虽然这样说，但有时候事情就是很有趣，尤其是听一个英国人说这类事情时，比如加文，我也不知道为什么。
So about the Strange Man aka the Man of Black is there some element with Michael in the therapist in Grand Theft Auto 5? Like who is the Strange Man? Well the Strange Man was again was it was it was someone we came up with quickly we made Red Dead One and we were we're making Red Dead One and we made this we felt quite compelling story and quite interesting open world but and we would we'd already made a bunch of Grand Theft Auto's obviously but unfortunately we've taken out the machine guns because it was a cowboy game apart from the big fixed position ones and we taken out the cars and we taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians so we essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse around the desert and it was quite and it was quite boring and so we then started filling it with content and we filled it with these and having to improvise and we filled it with these things we call random events that would be they sort of mo-cap moments that you could interact with and it was they were they were the designers did an amazing job at those they were really fun but there was not enough of them and then we thought we needed more story because there's always perhaps a little short.
关于《侠盗猎车手5》中那个被称为“陌生人”或“黑衣人”的人物，他与游戏中的角色麦克在心理治疗师那里有什么联系吗？那么，谁是这个陌生人呢？实际上，陌生人是我们在制作《荒野大镖客1》时很快想出来的一个角色。当时，我们觉得我们创造了一个很吸引人的故事和一个很有趣的开放世界。虽然我们已经制作了很多《侠盗猎车手》，但因为这是一个牛仔游戏，我们把机枪去掉了，只留下固定位置的大机枪，也没有汽车、城市和大量行人。所以基本上，我们有一个关于一个人在沙漠里骑马的游戏，这样就有点无聊。因此，我们开始往游戏里添加内容，不得不即兴创作，我们加入了一些我们称之为随机事件的东西，这些是角色可以互动的动作捕捉片段。设计师们在这个方面做得非常出色，这些事件很有趣，但数量还不够多。于是我们认为还需要更多的故事，因为整体可能稍微有些短。
So we kind of quite late in development started putting in almost like these RPG type content where you go and meet someone and that way we thought of them as they were like short stories so you go and meet someone they'd set you a slow problem like go and collect me 15 bunches of flowers and when you came came back it would resolve your story and so the one to go and get them from my bride you come back in the bride's dead you know tried to make them like these short stories with a sting entail and he came out as I was trying to come up with ideas for those as just this weird character and then we built him a bit into the story where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a commentary on what you were doing so he was meant to be a kind of manifestation of your or you know shadow your karma the devil somewhere you know just saw the world and then we built out his backstory over time and decided you know and so and read dead too you could interact with him again and or not really interact with him but he was there and he meant to be you know something I suppose any creative is scared of and artists who's kind of sold his soul to the devil and that slowly revealed.
我们在开发过程中比较晚才开始加入类似RPG的内容，像是你去见一个人，然后他们会给你一个任务，就像短篇故事。比如，他们可能会让你去收集15束花，然后当你回来时，这个任务就会完成。比如你拿花回来献给新娘，结果发现新娘已经去世了。我们尝试把这些任务设计成有“刺”的短篇故事。在想这些点子的时候，我就创造了一个古怪的角色，并把他融入了故事中。随着游戏进行，他会逐渐解锁，并对你的行为进行评论。这个角色被设计成你的一种化身，或者说你的影子、善恶业，或者是某种象征角色，他代表了创作者可能害怕的东西，是一位售卖灵魂给魔鬼的艺术家，随着剧情的发展，他的背景故事也逐渐显露。在《荒野大镖客2》中，你可以再次遇到他，虽然不是真的与他互动，但他的存在让人觉得，作为一种警示，代表着那些逐渐揭示的内心恐惧。
Itself there's a connection between the main character and the is it like a youngy and shadow type of situation we're sort of because he knows what you're up to the connection is and what's never really made clear it is does he know this about everybody like is he following you or is he able because of the practice made with with with evil forces aim to do this for everybody and I don't think we necessarily ever clarify that he's certainly able to do it for you I mean there's a narrative wise there's techniques to reveal a kind of self-reflection analysis of the main character's thoughts I mean that's why I brought up the therapist with Michael that was a really powerful interesting thing to do in the video game I got I don't think I've seen that that's such a cool I mean there's a soprano's element there with a therapist I really love an opportunity for a character to just self-reflect through that technique also changed depending what you've done yes so it was it was sort of slightly it wasn't as interactive as it could be but it was slightly interactive or slightly responsive to what you've done so I felt it was still valid video game content because it was living up to a point and I just thought the character Dr. Friedlander was just funny because he was awful so it was like L.A. he hit you in therapy it's very L.A. but it's also very L.A. he wants to write a book and betray you which felt like a good twist and it was he felt like a grand theft auto therapist but just like the idea of making the player in a game and games are intrinsically kind of physical and you know you walk you punch things you run around you drive cars you shoot people whatever this these kind of physical fantasies trying to put them into a slightly more reflective or meta physical state for a moment I think can be really fun.
在这段文字中，叙述者提到了某个主要角色与另一角色之间的某种联系。他们探讨这是否类似于一种“年轻自我与影子”的关系，因为主要角色似乎对你的行动了如指掌。这种联系究竟是什么，并没有被明确说明。他是否对所有人都这样了解，还是仅仅因为他与邪恶势力的交易赋予了他这种能力，这一点并没有完全明确。不过，他确实能对你做到这一点。
从叙事的角度来看，游戏中运用了某些手法来揭示角色内心的自我反省和分析。因此，我提到了与迈克尔角色的心理医生对话，这在电子游戏中是一种非常强大而有趣的体验。我觉得这种方法很酷——类似于《黑道家族》中的心理医生元素，我非常喜欢通过这种方式让角色自我反省的机会。此外，这种体验会根据玩家的行为而改变，虽然不够互动，但还是略微对此作出了响应，所以我认为这仍然是有效的游戏内容。
角色Dr. Friedlander在游戏中看起来既滑稽又令人讨厌，这种表现手法很符合洛杉矶的风格。他在治疗中对你不客气，这非常洛杉矶，同时也想写书出卖你，这是个很好的剧情反转，让他看起来像个典型的《侠盗猎车手》中的心理医生。
此外，这种设想也尝试在电子游戏这种本质上偏向物理活动的载体中加入了一种更具反思性或形而上学的元素，尝试让玩家从“一直在动手做”转为思考。这种尝试，我觉得非常有趣。
I think to me one of the most surprising things about Red Dead Redemption about video games that Red Dead Redemption showed is how much value for storytelling is insanely specific intricate details in the story but also visually it's just added to the the feeling that the world is real so I have to ask what are some of your favorite insanely specific intricate details in RDR I give you some options internet's favorite is horse testicles shrinking cold weather I was guys didn't the amazing job on this yeah I mean I just and there must have been a meeting and there must have been engineers and and and the graphics designers artists I think I don't think it was that hard okay thank you thank you for that our artists hair and beer growing real time so gun maintenance matters firearms get dirty and perform worse over time animal carcasses decompose realistically yeah you feel like they do that's still extremely rare in video games at the temporal aspect yes that permeates through time you know NPCs remembering you that's the best I mean that's the thing I love it playing around a lot of stuff in the new games around that's I think it's super interesting it's really yeah really interesting I think the it's just it's a really fun way of giving you kind of narrative content that is also systemic and procedural yeah is the technically really difficult to do for for the game for the game to feel like it remembers you.
在我看来，《荒野大镖客：救赎》让我感到最惊讶的事情之一，是它展示了电子游戏中故事讲述的价值体现在极其具体而复杂的细节上。而在视觉上，这些细节也增加了整个世界真实感。因此，我想问一下，你在《荒野大镖客》中最喜欢哪些极其具体而复杂的细节呢？
给你一些选择，网友们最喜欢的一个是马的睾丸在寒冷天气中会收缩。我认为创作团队在这方面做得非常出色。我想象，他们一定开过会，讨论过这个问题，工程师和图形设计师以及艺术家们都参与其中。我觉得可能没那么难，感谢艺术家们。
还有诸如头发和胡子实时生长、枪械维护的重要性、武器会变脏且性能随着时间下降，以及动物尸体会逼真地腐烂等细节。这些设定让玩家感觉更加真实，而这种时间上的变化在电子游戏中仍然极其罕见。NPC会记住你，这点我最喜欢。这种机制让我在新游戏中充满乐趣，我觉得这非常有趣。这是一种将叙事内容与系统和程序化结合的有趣方式。要让游戏有记忆的感觉，从技术上来说是很困难的。
I think with modern tech it's not that hard but there's a lot of stuff you need to track to make it interesting yeah to have a memory so that's really powerful uh the mud physics uh so are those boots get muddy and leave actual tracks I mean that's just incredible really really incredible you know we made a dusty game red dead one is a super dusty game making you know the problem with cowboys is that if you've tried to make a greatest hits of the cowboy game and then you've got to make a sequel you've got to come up with different geographies so that's why the game starts in the snow so we wanted to gain that snow and mud because those things you hadn't really seen in red dead one.
我认为凭借现代技术，这并不难，但有很多细节需要处理才能让它变得有趣，并且具有记忆点，这真的很强大。谈到泥土的物理效果，比如靴子粘上泥巴并留下真实的脚印，我认为这简直不可思议，真的非常不可思议。我们以前制作了一款布满灰尘的游戏，《荒野大镖客1》就是一款非常布满灰尘的游戏。问题在于，当你尝试制作一款西部游戏的经典之作，然后又要制作续集时，你就需要想出不同的地理环境，这就是为什么游戏会从雪地开始。我们希望融入雪和泥土这些元素，因为这些东西在《荒野大镖客1》中并没有真正看到过。
And then the challenge is how do you make mud good in the game and it guys did an amazing job I mean the snow storm that starts the game or DR2 I don't remember last time I've experienced anything like it but you felt it I don't know how the hell you do that it's not just graphics it's everything everything together I suppose some of the the dialogue is really important they feel they feel yeah that's right and they feel desperate that was that feeling of sort of exodus like you're running away from something that gives the game sort of energy at the start and it was at night oh man it was just a massive deal to them.
然后，挑战在于你如何在游戏中让泥浆变得出色，而团队确实表现得很出色。就像是游戏开头或者是《荒野大镖客2》中的暴风雪，我已经记不清上次体验到这种感觉是什么时候了，但确实让人身临其境。我不明白他们是怎么做到的，不仅仅是图像效果，而是所有元素的完美结合。我想，一些对话也非常重要，它们让玩家感受到角色的情感——没错，就是那种绝望的感觉。那种仿佛在逃离某种东西的紧迫感，赋予了游戏开头的能量。而且，那还是在夜晚，对他们来说真的意义重大。
The other congenial first game start was alone wolf something in this big group so it felt very different in arthas body bullet wounds persist so that that temporal consistency that's really important and underweight Arthur looks gone and overweight Arthur gets a gut and fuller face again those like decisions that you make reveal themselves in the game across time they're consistent I don't know I did not see many games do that this you must be difficult to do but to give that level of care to the details in that way across time and for specific graphical representations of things is incredible.
翻译后的中文版本：
另一个令人愉快的第一次游戏体验就像是一只孤狼，在这个大群体中显得与众不同，因此感觉非常不同。在阿尔萨斯的身体中，子弹伤口持续存在，这种时间上的一致性非常重要。而体重偏轻的阿瑟看起来很憔悴，而体重超重的阿瑟则会有一个小肚腩和更圆润的脸庞。这些你做出的决定会在游戏中随着时间的推移体现出来并保持一致。我不知道有多少游戏能做到这一点。这样做一定很困难，但在长时间内对细节给予如此关注和对事物进行特定的图形化呈现真是令人惊叹。
Yeah do you have favorites what were you were first like this is this is amazing I think all the I think the way the whole that to me the thing that I would care about most was the way the whole thing sat together you know the fact that each of those they all feel like they belong together with each other you made this cohesive very you know quote unquote realistic for a video game experience and all the details feel like they mesh well for me everything about the horse a lot of people now testicles shrinking included what's the process of deciding this the internet seems to really care about.
你有没有特别喜欢的东西？第一次看到时有没有觉得“哇，这太棒了”？我觉得最让我在意的是整体的感觉，就是这些元素都非常协调地结合在一起。每个部分都感觉是相互搭配的，这种整体的、所谓“现实主义”的游戏体验非常好，每个细节都能很好地融为一体。比如关于马的所有细节，包括很多人现在讨论的马的睾丸缩小，这些细节都处理得非常好。决定这些细节的过程是怎样的呢？看起来网络上的人对此非常感兴趣。
I mean they love the game so much so they want to know if anything was cut and I'm sure stuff was cut because you you have to choose what's the process of deciding what to cut what the cut seems like is is there any scenes you had to let go of that you really miss a wish you could have done in either GTA or RDR well I think the games ended up the way they were supposed to be yeah you know I think there was always there was a bit at the start of RDR where he'd had a baby who just died in red dead too and we ended up cutting it which was the right decision it was too tough in some ways but I think it gave him real and he was not very sympathetic to his sort of occasional girlfriend he'd had the baby and so it made him very very nasty at the start which I thought would be interesting to play around with.
意思是他们非常热爱这款游戏，所以他们想知道是否有任何内容被删减了。我相信肯定有东西被删减，因为必须做出选择。决定删减内容的过程是怎样的？有没有让你觉得遗憾而放弃的场景，无论是在《GTA》还是《RDR》中？
我认为游戏最终呈现的样子就是它应有的状态。比如在《荒野大镖客：救赎》开始时，我们曾设想过一个背景情节：主角刚失去一个在《荒野大镖客2》中去世的婴儿。最终我们删掉了这个情节，我觉得这是个正确的决定，因为这个情节在某种程度上太沉重了。
这也让主角很难与他的情人同情相连，因为孩子的失去让他在故事开始时显得非常冷酷无情。我曾觉得这个设定会很有趣，可以在故事中玩味一下。
Because then it would make his redemptive arc even more interesting like he was not a likable character at the start and that was one and we ended up making slightly more like he's still sort of tough and nasty but he's slightly more likable early on that was the right decision commercially it's better that way but I don't you know but I still I like that little bit it spoke to me personally there and just he's in inability to access his emotions I thought was really strong because then later in the games get very emotional but there's also always little bits and pieces that get trimmed you know and and and don't well missions that just are not going to work technically usually it's like this mission's not going to work technically oh god we've got to cut it okay how do we glue the story back together.
因为这样一来，他的救赎弧线会更加有趣。起初他并不是一个讨人喜欢的角色，而我们最终让他稍微变得更有吸引力但他仍然有些强硬和讨厌，不过早期阶段让他稍微更受欢迎确实是个正确的商业决策，这样对市场更有利。虽然我还是很喜欢其中的细节，这部分深深打动了我，特别是他无法表达情感的部分，我觉得这一点非常有力。因为在后来的游戏中，情感变得非常浓烈，但总是有一些小细节会被删减，还有一些任务因为技术原因无法实现，通常就是任务在技术上行不通，结果不得不砍掉，然后我们想办法把故事重新拼接起来。
And we've got a better over time at gluing the story across missing chunks you get late in the game and it's just something you know some big challenging moment just is going to look rubbish so you just get rid of it I think editing editing film and I imagine editing video games editing down is is an art form but it's also just it feels like torture because you're letting go of things you put so much love into yeah it could be changes you know if you fall in love with something and everyone else goes let's change it that could be of course that we upsetting in some ways otherwise you can care about it but you know if I was over involved in the big creative thing and he got it's the right decision I can probably live with that fine.
我们随着时间的推移在将故事拼接在一起方面越来越好，尤其是当你在接近尾声时遇到一些缺失的片段时。遇到某些非常具有挑战性的时刻，如果它看起来效果不佳，那就干脆删掉。我觉得编辑电影甚至是编辑电子游戏其实是一种艺术，但同时也像是一种折磨，因为你要放弃很多倾注了许多心血的东西。如果大家决定改变一些你很喜欢的东西，这当然会让人有些难过。不过，如果我是一个深度参与到创作中的人，而这个改变确实是一个正确的决定，我可能也能接受。
I think sometimes for designers when they're only designing four or five missions in the whole game and two of them get cut back must be really really hard is there DLCs like for our DR GTA that you wish you at the time when you were there to have created of course there's always things I wish I'd done I wish I'd done more what would you have added this is a fun like nerding out we with the internet knows we made a DLC single player DLC for GTA 5 that never came out and we were also never really worked on another game but I like the idea of it that was a GTA zombie game that would have been funny I think that could have been quite fun what was the GTA 5 DLC it was one when you played his Trevor but he was a secret agent oh it was it was cute it was it never quite came together and it was never finished it was about half done when it got him and but I think if that had come out probably wouldn't have got to make red dead too so he was always there's always compromises but it was you know I like making the stories for me.
我认为对于设计师来说，有时候他们在整个游戏中只能设计四五个任务，而其中两个被砍掉，这真的非常困难。当年在DR（荒野大镖客）或者GTA（侠盗猎车手）的时候，你有没有希望创造一些DLC（可下载内容）？当然，总有一些我希望能做的事情，我希望能做得更多一些。你会添加什么呢？这就像是一个有趣的宅男话题。我们都知道，我们曾为GTA 5制作过一个单人DLC，但从未发布。我们也没有真正开始其他游戏的工作，不过我喜欢这个想法——那是一个GTA僵尸游戏，应该会很有趣。我觉得这会非常有趣。
至于GTA 5的DLC，它是关于一个你扮演特雷弗（Trevor）的任务，他是一个秘密特工。虽然它的创意很可爱，但始终没有成型，甚至从未完成。我们完成了一半的时候就停止了。不过我想，如果它发布了，可能我们就不会有机会制作《荒野大镖客2》了。总是有各种折中选择，但我喜欢为自己创造故事。
I love the model of GTA 4 when you had the extra stories coming afterwards or red dead one when you had the zombie pack coming after as I like just doing these extra things so I would have what I would I personally like to have done more of that in that company and with stuff we're doing in the future we're going to try and come up with worlds where we can add more stories I like single-player DLC I just think the audience loves it and it's really fun to make does it make it a little bit sad that the gaming industry in general is moving towards more online less single-player DLC maybe that observation isn't correct but it feels at the at this moment to me it feels like it's easier to make a lot of money with online if you get it right if you get it right and so the gaming companies are reaching for that and it just makes me really sad because there's so much power to the what you did with red dead redemption too.
我喜欢《GTA 4》的模式，在本体游戏之后增加了额外的故事，或者像《荒野大镖客》第一部那样，随后加上了僵尸包。我很喜欢做这些额外的任务，所以我个人希望在公司内做更多类似的内容。我们在未来的项目中将尝试创建可以添加更多故事的世界。我喜欢单人模式的DLC，因为我认为观众也很喜欢，而且制作起来真的很有趣。看到游戏行业整体朝着更多在线游戏、而不是单人DLC的发展趋势，是否有些让人感到遗憾？也许这种观察并不准确，但在这个时刻，我感觉如果做得好，通过在线游戏赚钱会更容易，所以游戏公司正在追求这一方向。这让我感到很难过，因为《荒野大镖客2》中展现了单人内容的强大魅力。
I don't know how during that time you're able to pull that off but that was like a breath of fresh air or in a time where everybody was moving to online and there was that huge incentive to that you go on and drop again the greatest narrative in video game history and the greatest character in video game history single-player we still love single-player games and I think as we started up absurd we did a lot of soul-searching yeah and and also a lot of like cynical looking at looking at what goes well in the industry luckily if you want to do what we're forced to do and also what I want to do which is make new IP you need single-player games you can launch a multiplayer game with new IP it's just extremely hard so luckily we are like focusing on what we're good at which is open world single-player games and we might add multiplayer components to one of them.
我不知道你们是如何在那个时期做到这一点的，但那简直就像是一股清新的空气。在所有人都转向在线游戏的时候，你们发布了游戏史上最伟大的叙事和角色，大家依然热爱单人游戏。我想，当我们开始深入思考时，我们做了很多反思，也带着一种批判的眼光来看待行业中运作良好的事物。幸运的是，如果你想做我们必须去做的，也是我想做的事情，那就是创造新的IP，那么你就需要单人游戏。虽然可以用新IP启动多人游戏，但那是极其困难的。因此，幸运的是，我们可以专注于我们的强项——开放世界单人游戏，同时在其中一部分游戏中加入多人组件。
I think one of them it's going to be really tough later on but we're still thinking that through but I think we're really leaning into single-player experience as being a strength for us as a company and something we love to do and I think something a large part of the audience prefers and I'd love to with all of those keep single-player DLC one way or another going whether some other game ideas you consider while at rockstar and afterwards they you didn't go with so like worlds I don't know pirate games maybe what I would love to see the notes that possible options never thought a lot about a pirate game yeah my son is is obsessed by that game CF thieves at the moment so he's constantly saying to the pirate game haven't really thought about it too much we worked a lot on multiple iterations of an open world spy game.
我认为其中一个项目今后可能会很有挑战性，但我们仍在仔细考虑。不过，我认为我们公司真的很重视单人游戏体验，并视其为我们的优势之一，这也是我们乐于做的事情。我认为很多玩家也更喜欢这种体验。我希望我们能继续开发单人游戏的DLC，无论通过何种方式。关于其他游戏创意，比如一些你在Rockstar期间或之后考虑过却没有实现的项目，比如海盗游戏。我从未深入考虑过制作一个海盗游戏，但我儿子现在对《盗贼之海》这款游戏非常着迷，他总是提到海盗游戏。我们确实花了很多时间开发多个版本的开放世界间谍游戏。
Yeah and it never came together so agent agent in it's had about five different iterations so good I don't think it works I concluded I'm I can I keep thinking about it sometimes I sometimes lie in bed thinking about it and I've concluded as an open as what makes them really good as film stories makes them not work as video games what need to think through how to do it in a different way as a video game so for people don't know it would be hypothetically said in 1970s Cold War era that was one of the versions there was another one that was set and we had so many versions this game we worked on so many of the teams but it would be more geopolitical like espionage that yeah espionage like yeah assassinations I don't know what it would have been because it never really we never got it enough to even doing a proper story on it we're doing the early work as you get the world up running it never it never really found its feet in either of them.
这段话的大意是：
不错，但这个项目从未真正成型。这个项目经历了大约五次不同的迭代，我觉得它始终没有奏效。我常常想到它，有时会躺在床上思考，最后得出结论：虽然这些故事很适合作为电影，但并不适合作为电子游戏。我需要想出一种不同的方式来实现它。对于不知道的人来说，假设这是设定在1970年代冷战时期的游戏版本之一，还有其他版本。我们为这个游戏做了很多不同的版本和设定，涉及很多团队的合作。游戏内容会更偏向于地缘政治，比如间谍活动、刺杀等。我其实也不知道最终会是什么样，因为我们从未真正将其发展到一个能够讲完整故事的地步。我们只是在做早期工作，试图让世界运行起来，但无论哪个版本，它从未真正站稳脚跟。
And I sort of think I know why because one of those films they're very very frenetic and they beat to beat to beat you know you've got to go here and save the world you got to go there and stop that person being killed and then save the world and an open world game does have moments like that when the story comes together but for large portions it's a lot kind of looser and you're just hanging out and you're just doing what you want and I want freedom and I want to go over here and do what I want and I want to go over and do what you want and that's why it works well being a criminal because you fundamentally don't know anyone telling you what to do and we try and create you know external agency through these people kind of forcing you into the story at times but as a spy that doesn't really work because you have to be against the clock so I think for me I'm questioning if you can even make a good open world spy game so interesting so you have to be able to ride around the car and listen to the radio cruise about or ride a horse and just look at nature so lots of things would work as open world games but I don't know if it spied us that's brilliantly put but to me there's such an espionage and assassinations and the geopolitical international context is so interesting but you're right I just want to listen to what is it lasso and you can't save the world and so you need this time pressure with a version accident or something yeah wow wow yeah that's really interesting and then we played around with a night's concept that was look nice you know nights and and sort of trying to do a version of a mythological game that could have been fun and you know still love that idea but never went very far in nights would be going really far back in history yeah I would have to go never got to writing any of it just it's a backstory and played around with a few ideas but it was it was always like I thought I would never do and then kind of fell in love with it a little bit.
我觉得我有点明白为什么，因为其中一些电影节奏非常紧张，一个接一个的情节发展，你需要到这里去拯救世界，去那里阻止某人被杀，然后再次拯救世界。开放世界游戏确实也有这样紧张刺激的时刻，当故事拼凑到一起时会出现这种情况，但大部分时间节奏较为松散，你可以随心所欲地探索。我追求这种自由，我想去各种地方做自己的事，也想让你去你想去的地方做你想做的事。这种模式对于扮演罪犯来说非常合适，因为本质上没有人命令你该做什么。
我们试图通过某些角色强迫你进入故事，以创造一种外部推动力，但对于间谍来讲，这并不奏效，因为你总是要与时间赛跑。所以我在思考，是否真的能做出一款好的开放世界间谍游戏。这很有趣，因为你得能驾车四处闲逛、听听广播，或者骑马看看自然景观。很多东西都适合做成开放世界游戏，但我不确定间谍主题能否实现得很好。间谍和刺杀，以及地缘政治的国际背景非常有趣，但你说得对，时间压力是必需的。
我们还尝试过一些骑士主题的概念，这种神话游戏的版本可能会很有趣，我仍然很喜欢这个想法，但从未深入发展过。毕竟骑士主题要追溯到很远的历史，我们从未写过任何实质的内容，只是在背景故事上玩了一点构思，但对我来说，这一直是种我本以为不会做的事，结果却有点爱上了它。
You left rock star in 2020 and eventually launched absurd ventures as we've been talking about would you miss about your time at rock star is there specific moments that bring you joy when you think about them of course it was my whole you know it was my life for 20 something years 21 years or something yeah it was and I moved to America to do it and grew up doing it and I was always living in in New York it was a at times very intense and at other times magical experience but it was also just a huge chunk of my life the lows and the highs and the middles it was just my life you know my life was that job and the people I knew in New York and and my family and it when we were doing something that was intense and innovative and and you know both loved and hated by by wider society in different ways and at different times and in this weird company that was constantly in trouble so it was really it was really fun just even looking back at that time today.
你在2020年离开了Rockstar，最终创立了荒诞事业，正如我们一直所说的。你会怀念在Rockstar的时光吗？是否有一些特定的时刻让你感到快乐？当然，它几乎是我生命的全部，那可是我生命中的21年。我为此搬到了美国，并在纽约成长，那里一直是我的家。有时，我的经历非常激烈，而在其他时候又如同魔法般美妙。这段经历不仅仅是我生活的一大部分，无论是低谷、高峰还是平稳期，都是我生活的一部分。那时我的生活就是那份工作，身边的人就是我在纽约认识的朋友和我的家人。我们所做的事情既激烈又创新，在不同时间和不同方式上被社会广泛地爱着和恨着。而且公司总是处于风口浪尖，所以回顾那段时光真的是很有趣。
How did you evolve as a creative mind across those 20 years well I was a child and was a 25 year old child who didn't know anything and I wanted to be a writer but I still wasn't writing and I bought a notebook and I'd occasionally scribble in it and I still got those notebooks somewhere and I was working in video games which were the least literary medium it's possible to imagine at the time there was no room for that on PS1 really um thinking I needed to stop and do something else but not having the skills or the confidence to do it and I'd been doing that in London then I came to New York and it was fun really fun to be in New York and really fun to do a new company in New York and that was an amazing adventure but I was still lost as a human being and then when I was 27 I've still completely lost a child and I stopped some of my bad behaviour in the next day uh pretty much the chance to write on at work on Oakmore games and all the skills I'd half learnt over the previous years and in my way of thinking where I thought about.
在这二十年中，我是如何发展成一个有创造力的头脑的呢？嗯，我曾是个孩子，一个25岁的孩子，对很多事情一无所知。我想成为一名作家，但当时我还没有真正开始写作。我买了一个笔记本，时不时在上面涂涂画画，现在那些笔记本我还留着。当时我在电子游戏行业工作，那个时候的PS1上几乎没有太多与文学相关的东西，我想着需要停下来做些其他事情，但没有那个技能或信心去实现。我在伦敦做这些事情，然后我来到了纽约。在纽约真的很有趣，做一个新公司的冒险也很精彩，但作为一个人我依然感到迷茫。然后在我27岁的时候，我仍然是个迷失的孩子，我停止了一些不良行为，接着几乎很快就有了在Oakmore游戏公司工作的写作机会，所有这些年来我半学到的技能和思维方式都派上了用场。
space a lot because I was a jogger for rather than a historian uh came together and I got the chance to work on Oakmore games that felt like it was meant to be it was fun to explore but really fun to explore with this between that was you know Alex Horton and Navid and Leslie and the guys in Scotland and all the people in in New York making these new games in this new way and and going oh we need to find a hundred voices where we've got no money how are we going to do that we'll get one's friends in and just record all lines of dialogue each as we kind of would invent the way that pedestrian just speaking video games no one else was doing that kind of stuff it was insane so I think that period from kind of 2001 2005 was lots of early innovation and felt really exciting because we were doing new stuff it didn't feel it felt creative but it didn't feel like writing yet just becoming that they felt lots of doing lots of creative things and learning how to assemble the stuff and learning what it could take and then I think we talked about earlier but the the journey into doing GTA 4 when it began to feel more like a proper writing experience and I was kind of probably ready for that at that point and then I was like well this is better than films this is something that films can't do you know this 360 degree experience of being this immigrant and it's still felt that we're still only scratching the surface I mean still for now in some ways but it's still felt better than then that five games you know GTA 4 and 5 red dead one and 2 all the extra packs for them and Max Pain 3 I think we took the games thematically into new places through that period from a writing perspective that was the most exciting period from a from a business and and sort of early creativity period the period 2001 to 2005 was probably the best exciting the original starting team we're all doing well you know personal life is doing okay didn't feel like such a mess and then and then from 2007 onwards 7 8 was happy personally having children happily married and the games were just getting much better but there were lots of pressure in the business you know it was just we've done the budget's got really big so it is other stress so there's always always good bits and stresses but you know always just try to sharpen do my best and think about how I could do it in a new way always trying to go it's a new medium what can we do this new but as a writer as a scholar of human nature first of all were you surprised to actually you were actually able like you had it in you through humor and tragedy to create these incredible compelling characters is that I think I remember reading somewhere the James Joyce when he was 20 said that he's going to be the greatest writer ever and I feel like every 20 year old says this is just James Joyce pulls it off yes so were you were you surprised that you were actually able to do it and how did that person get better and better and better at writing as you evolved the team got better and better so we could write in a more ambitious way the animation got better so we could support it in a better way we could go deeper like the me you couldn't go that deep on a PS2 game so it was also just the technology evolved I don't know I felt like I felt like I was good at doing it and and well trained for it and I'd been in the right place at the right time and I was both lucky and had a in a way of thinking about characters that when you reduced them to about 10 sentences was amusing you know I think I was you know and it was and I saw the world in a holistic way and when saw society in a holistic way that you could break apart into an open world video game I was you know I thought about it a bunch the way I think about things was suitable for that for whatever reason just that was just good fortune.
我之前是个慢跑者，而不是历史学家，所以对空间有不同的感受。后来，我有机会参与Oakmore游戏的制作，感觉这就是命中注定的事情。探索这些游戏非常有趣，尤其是与Alex Horton、Navid和Leslie以及苏格兰和纽约的团队合作时，更是乐趣无穷。我们需要找出一百种声音，但又没钱，所以找来朋友录制对话，这种方法没有人尝试过。2001到2005年这段时期充满了早期的创新，很令人兴奋，虽然感觉是在做创造性的事情，但还不算真正的写作。
后来，我们开始制作《GTA 4》，这时写作体验更趋于成熟，而我也感觉为此做好了准备。这比电影还好，因为它实现了电影无法做到的360度体验，特别是在《GTA 4》这类游戏中扮演移民的感觉。感觉我们才刚刚触及表面，但仍胜过当时其它五款游戏。我们通过写作将游戏从主题上带到新的领域。
从2001到2005年，那段时间是业务和早期创造性的高峰。原始团队成员的私人生活也都不错，没有那么混乱。从2007年开始，个人生活幸福，有孩子，婚姻美满，游戏也在不断进步，但业务上压力增大，预算也越来越大，尽管有压力但一直努力做到最好，探索新的创作方式。
作为作家和人性研究者，最初你能否通过幽默和悲剧创造出引人入胜的角色感到惊讶？我记得詹姆斯·乔伊斯曾说他20岁的时候要成为最伟大的作家，每个20岁的人都这么认为，但乔伊斯成功了。那么，你对于你能做到这一点感到惊讶吗？团队变得越来越强，我们写作也越来越有野心，动画水平提高了，我们能够更加深入地创作。技术的进步让我们能在更高层次上创作作品，我觉得自己很擅长这一点，训练有素，站在合适的时间和地点。我的思维方式适合创造游戏中的角色，这大概是某种幸运。
As I'll mention that it was another legend who you're still working with he mentioned that you would like yourself in writing dialogue for a radio I think you'd like yourself in a room and get anchovies and onion pizza and crushed eye coaks is this accurate information very accurate for which periods of your life was this a fuel for your creative process is it anchovies and onion pizza I would also get pepperoni on my half just a technically accurate okay he wouldn't because he claimed to be a vegetarian in in those days yeah but then he'd admit to me kept chicken wings hidden in the freezer yeah so it was a sort of fake vegetarian that was or I think we still do it now sometimes as sort of I'm a wise but that began in 2001 and we the office at rockstar was so small and we were so broke that there was no and I did have a private office at the time but it genuinely was a cupboard it didn't have a window I was literally sitting in a cupboard so there was no room and I could had a desk and a chair just for myself.
翻译如下：
我会提到，你曾与另一位传奇人物合作过，他说过你喜欢自己在为电台写对话时把自己锁在房间里，订鳀鱼和洋葱披萨以及粉碎的冰可乐。这是否准确？确实如此。在你生活的哪个时期，这些是你创作过程的动力？是鳀鱼和洋葱披萨吗？我还会在自己的半边披萨上加上意大利香肠，这样才算技术上准确。不过他不会这样做，因为他那时声称自己是素食主义者。但后来他承认给我看，他在冰箱里藏了鸡翅。因此，他算是个伪素食主义者。我们有时候到现在还是这样做，虽然我们有些聪明，但这一切始于2001年。那时Rockstar的办公室很小，我们非常拮据。虽然我有一个私人办公室，但实际上就是个柜子，没有窗户，我真的是坐在柜子里，所以没有空间。我只能有一张桌子和一把椅子供自己使用。
So we would I live quite near the office so we would write one or two afternoons a week he'd come in he was a freelance of working with us he'd come in from Long Island and then we would jump on the subway go to my apartment in Chelsea and sit in this grimey little apartment I was living in and buy pizza from around the corner and that became we both liked diet code computer very video game developer and that became good luck and we'd had these good writings as we realized we got on well with each other and we had a similar sense of humor and we could write the stuff and then he would do all of the real work producing it so it was perfect for me because I got to outsource most of the real work and he's a brilliant radio producer so it was a great partner in that way and then that was how that relationship began and then I'd get him I say when we've got to record these 80 voices come and help me because I can't direct 80 people at once so he would help with that process and he was a really good producer like audio getting bodies in produce as well as a technical producer.
所以，我住得离办公室很近，所以我们每周有一两个下午会一起写作。他是我们的自由职业者，从长岛过来找我们。然后我们会搭地铁到我在切尔西的公寓，坐在我那间脏兮兮的小公寓里，从拐角的披萨店买披萨。我们都喜欢健怡可乐，电脑，和电子游戏开发。我们意识到我们相处得很好，有相似的幽默感，这让我们的创作很顺利。他负责制作所有的实际工作，这对我来说再好不过，因为我把大部分实际工作都交给了他。他是一位出色的广播制片人，所以我们是很好的搭档。我们的关系就是这样开始的。有时候我会叫他来帮忙录制80个声音，因为我无法同时指导80个人，他会帮忙处理这个过程。他是一个很好的制片人，不仅能处理音频，还能管理人和技术。
So he was just that was the beginning of that relationship and it was always my job was to ensure the media content felt like it reflected the tone of the world and we would write it together then his job was just to make sure it sounded funny like he would just produce it in a really funny way just to give a little bit more shout out to last low what was it been like working with him for over 20 years his work was you still he's a kind of this uh fine boy colorful personality much loved for being a voice also unradio in the in the grant of daughter games yeah and the rule was when he was the character I would write the first pass so I would and I would get nastier and nastier over time so to point when he's having his head shaved and you know being punished by everybody but even in game after game he got work he began as his quite in GTA 3 is a quite likeable character and then you know over the next 12 30 years it just got worse and worse so I think he's glad not to be doing that anymore but he did it with great grace he's just a great partner because he likes he like you know like me we just like making stuff he likes to make stuff he likes to work in new spaces he's been a great help on bringing the comic book to life doing a lot of the work on that he's working on that right now.
所以，那段关系的开始就是这样，我的工作一直是确保媒体内容与世界的基调相符。我们会一起编写内容，然后他的工作就是确保这些内容听起来很有趣。他总是能用一种非常搞笑的方式来制作。顺便提一下，与拉斯洛合作超过20年是什么感觉？他的作品至今依然出色，他是一个迷人的人物，备受喜爱，因为他在《侠盗猎车手》游戏中也是一位广播中的声音角色。我们的规则是，当他扮演角色的时候，我会写初稿，然后随着时间的推移，我的文字会变得越来越犀利。有时候，他的角色会被剃光头，受到各种惩罚。但即便在一款接一款的游戏中，他的角色变化越来越糟糕。他在《GTA 3》中是一个相当讨喜的角色，但在接下来的十到十二年里，情况变得越来越糟。所以，我想他对不再扮演那种角色感到高兴，但他一直以极大的风度完成这项工作。他是一个很棒的合作伙伴，因为他和我一样喜欢创造东西。他喜欢在新兴领域工作，他在将漫画书付诸实现方面给予了很大的帮助，目前他正在从事这个项目。
Um and just he's he's he's really fun to work with and he's you know always will put creativity first and he's ridiculous you know he's the best possible way yeah outside of the games you've participated in created um what do you think are some candidates for the greatest game of all time Tetris Tetris Tetris Game Boy no question Tetris in a Game Boy yeah it was the perfect device for playing that game I never liked it as much on the else with my wife was trying to get a retro one for my kids trying to get them Christmas right now um it was the most addicted ever was to anything in my life of far too many addictions that was obsessed by dreaming about it and when you blinked two together with the cable and if I got four it pushed yours for I was like perfect game design so from a pure puzzle perspective nothing comes close yes extremely simple yeah pure gameplay no narrative no nothing no no personality at all it's a completely different action but perfect in its way open more games can't be that perfect.
嗯，他真的很有趣，和他一起工作总是很愉快，你知道吗，他总是把创意放在首位，他真的很有趣，你知道，以一种极好的方式。
除了你参与或创造的游戏之外，你认为哪些游戏可以被称为史上最伟大的游戏？是俄罗斯方块，毫无疑问，在Game Boy上玩俄罗斯方块真是完美的体验。我从来没有在其他设备上玩过这么喜欢的游戏。我太太现在正试着给我的孩子们买一个复古的Game Boy作为圣诞礼物，这是我人生中对一个东西上瘾得最严重的一次，我一直为它着迷，会梦到它。用连接线和其他人连起来的时候，如果我拿到4行分，它会推给你4行，我觉得这是完美的游戏设计。从纯粹的解谜角度来说，没有其他游戏能与之相比。极其简单，玩法纯粹，没有故事情节，没有个性，完全是另一种动作，但它以自己的方式很完美。很多游戏都无法达到那种完美。
Yeah but you always dream of making something like that it's super Mario I think the N64 ones all of those early 3d games were very amazing when you first saw them on the N64 ps1 when you went suddenly it was like these games they were live and they did well they believe a different way I think that was very interesting looks how I gave anything else Nintendo has that look yeah always yeah and I think that's the they're known for this Nintendo polish that every pixel has a purpose yes I would I mean I suppose Tetris has that same real focus on delivering a pure gaming experience as little as possible it's really beautiful of course Zelda really pioneered a lot of sort of the feeling of of a world but it's not quite open no but it's amazing it's almost like the new ones they almost to me feel like Hitchcock they're just speaking the language of video games you know like you know everything's gonna work this way in that way it's it's quite systemic but it's so how it all glues together is so amazing it feels like when you watch a Hitchcock film it's not reality he's speaking the language of cinema in a very very strong with very strong acts and almost it's very very cinematic it's not realism at all and that's what those Zelda games kind of feel to me that they are these amazing things that could only be video games they couldn't be anything else for me another really powerful open world is the other squirrels world role playing it's fantasy dragons all that kind of stuff Todd is greater what he does yeah there's there's slightly there more I mean from a technical perspective we're always involved I'd be in the same with the new games we're constantly trying to find the balance between you know RPG of role playing game and an action game and an you know and try to go we're an action adventure game with RPG elements and what does that mean and I think they've all kind of moved into roughly the same space but for me it always just comes out to our is it easy to play our mechanics super slick and then can we keep our dialogue feeling very alive I'm not always a great for just what we do I like when other people do it for we do we always want very punchy dialogue so don't give big trees but still have it interactive so we're gonna we're gonna lose a touch of interactivity but we'll still have the dialogue feeling like it's alive but we'll get better at dialogue and it'll feel more a slightly more cinematic experience.
是的，你总是梦想着能创造出类似超级马里奥这样的作品。我觉得在N64上看到的那些早期3D游戏，比如PS1上看到的那些游戏，第一次看到时真是让人惊叹。这些游戏仿佛有了生命，它们取得了成功，能够以不同的方式吸引人。我觉得这很有趣，任天堂似乎总能做到这一点，而他们也以这种"任天堂精细打磨"而闻名，让每一个像素都充满意义。是的，我认为俄罗斯方块也有类似的专注，尽可能提供纯粹的游戏体验，这真的很美妙。当然，《塞尔达传说》开创了很多营造世界氛围的感觉，虽然它不是完全开放的，但非常了不起。新版《塞尔达》游戏让我觉得有点像希区柯克电影，它们在用电子游戏的语言交流，一切都运行得很有规律，整个系统的结合非常惊人。观看希区柯克电影时会感觉它并非现实，而是在用非常强烈的电影语言和强有力的叙事，这种体验不是真实主义，而是非常电影化。而《塞尔达传说》游戏给我的感觉就是它们是那些只能存在于电子游戏中的绝妙作品。
另一个非常有力的开放世界是《上古卷轴》的奇幻世界，有关于龙和各种幻想元素，Todd在这方面做得很出色。从技术角度来看，我们始终参与其中，尤其是新游戏，我总是在尝试在角色扮演游戏和动作游戏之间找到平衡。我们要做的是一款带有RPG元素的动作冒险游戏，这意味着什么？我觉得大家都大致进入了同一个空间，对我来说，关键在于它是否易于操作，游戏机制是否流畅，以及我们是否能够让对话显得生动。我不总是在意我们做什么，我喜欢别人也加入进来。对于我们来说，我们总是希望对话更有冲击力，所以不想给出复杂的对话树，但仍保持互动性。这样可能会减少一点互动性，但我们的对话会更出色，体验会更具电影感。
Yeah I think the other school series of almost always leaned a little more towards the open world yes they're real RPGs yeah you know we've not read the games that you know I've worked on they've not really been RPGs they've had RPG elements on to a story driven action game it's a kind of just a sighted of an emphasis but I still think what they do is amazing they they he's brilliant at doing and I think Grant Aftaro read the redemption and Skyrim are games where you have millions of people they just walk around or drive around and feel the world feel the world just feel the world and the Witcher same thing and Baldur's Gate 1 2 and 3 really interesting they really tried to make every choice you make genuinely branch the game towards not the illusion of choice it's really it really choice really does something and that's really hard to pull off technically yes and hard to pull off you're always sort of debating the sweet spot between that and a strong story you know and strong mechanics it's hard to get them all.
我觉得其他学校系列游戏几乎总是更倾向于开放世界模式，它们是实实在在的角色扮演游戏（RPG）。而我参与制作的游戏并不真的是RPG，它们只是有RPG元素，主要还是以故事驱动的动作游戏为主。这虽然只是一个侧重的不同，但我仍然认为他们做的事情很厉害，他们在这方面做得非常出色。我认为《侠盗猎车手》、《荒野大镖客》和《上古卷轴：天际》这些游戏，都让数以百万计的玩家可以四处走动或驾车游览，真正感受到游戏的世界。而《巫师》也是同样的体验。还有《博德之门》1、2和3，它们非常有趣，真的试图让玩家做出的每个选择都能真正改变游戏走向，而不是只是选择的假象。这种真正的选择带来实际影响是很难在技术上实现的，也很难在游戏设计中做到完美平衡，尤其是在权衡这种自由度和一个强有力的故事情节与出色的游戏机制之间的平衡时尤其困难。
And you know as a as a as a game-making team the whole you know the teams kind of have to figure out where they want to fall on that line a difficult topic you dedicated the books to your mom and dad and in particular you wrote to my father who died while I was finishing the book what have you learned about life from your dad to show up to be present to go to work every day to love creative things you know he was a lawyer but he's also jazz musician and he did both to the best his abilities you know and to value family as more important than either of those things you know he was a present guy and and we know he loved books always loved books always loved but love films loved movie music didn't was was not video games but like that we were doing weird things was he proud of you yeah I think so I hope so.
作为一个游戏制作团队，你知道，整个团队必须弄清楚他们希望在那个界限上处于什么位置。你把书献给了你的父母，特别写给了在我完成这本书期间去世的父亲。你从父亲那里学到了什么人生道理呢？要去参与，要在场，要每天去工作，要热爱创意的事物。你知道，他是一位律师，但同时也是一位爵士音乐家，他把两者都做到最好。而且，要把家庭看得比这些都重要。他总是很关心我们，而且我们知道他热爱书籍，一直热爱书籍，也爱好电影、电影音乐，虽然他对电子游戏并不感兴趣，但对我们做的一些不同寻常的事情感到自豪。他为你感到骄傲吗？我想是的，希望如此。
And he was he was for for a lawyer he really venerated at some level giving the man that the the quote unquote the man the finger like you know whenever life goes crazy he just was always on the side of the underdog and the ridiculous and I think that you know he always wanted to answer people back always give the silly comment and I certainly taken that from him to my detriment probably but it makes life more fun like he always could just say the obnoxious thing it just didn't give a fuck and that was you know I think that was probably quite inspiring so you have a bit of that in you unfortunately so yes not good at starting up not good at towing the line I think I speak for most of human civilization.
他作为一个律师，在某种程度上还是很受尊敬的，但他似乎总是给所谓的"权威"竖中指。无论生活如何疯狂，他总是站在弱者和荒谬事物的一边。我觉得他总是愿意回应别人，给出一些愚蠢的回答。我确实从他那里继承了这一点，虽然这可能对我不利，但这让生活更有趣。他总是能说出讨人厌的话，不在乎别人的看法，我觉得这确实很激励人。很不幸的是，我也有一点他这样的性格，所以是的，我不擅长遵循常规，不擅长循规蹈矩，我想我代表了大多数人类文明。
that fortunately you have that as part as part of who you are because it comes through your stories I think it made school difficult you know they sent me this very formal school yeah it was like it might as well be in set in the 1870s in the 1990s and but then they want you know that was always getting troubles for not not for doing anything that wrong just answering teachers back all of the time couldn't be quiet how often do you think about mortality are you personally yourself afraid of death well my father passed away in May so a lot more since then obviously I mean I think about a lot am I afraid of it I don't know some days intensely and some days not at all.
幸运的是，这种特质是你的一部分，因为它在你的故事中显露出来。我觉得这让上学变得困难，你知道，他们送我去了一所非常正规的学校。那种学校在上世纪90年代就像是设在1870年代一样古板。而且他们总是因为我顶撞老师而找我麻烦，并不是因为我做了什么错事，而是因为我总是回答老师的问题，静不下来。
你有多常想到死亡？你自己害怕死亡吗？
嗯，我父亲在五月去世了，所以从那时起我想得更多了。显然，我常常想到这些。我害怕吗？我不知道，有些时候感到极度害怕，而有些时候则完全不怕。
I would love to stay alive long enough to see my kids probably go out and settled of course for them I don't know aside from that some days I feel you know spiritually connected universe and not afraid of death at all and other days I feel like a sort of random piece of good luck who's gonna get struck down by an angry fate and tend to nothingness and that terrifies me I just what do you think about the nothingness I mean that in itself is terrifying yeah that is terrifying I mean I tend to I tend to you know I spent long periods of my life tormented by that stuff but the last few years I tend to believe there is a purpose and a point to life and that we have some kind of spiritual or soul-based existence not not quite sure if it matters if there is a God or not we should probably live our lives the same way either way but I tend to think that you know there was a metaphysical purpose to life and part of that purpose is to you know search for the purpose.
我希望能活得足够久，看到我的孩子们生活安定。当然，为他们我希望如此。除此之外，有些日子我感觉自己与宇宙有精神上的联结，对死亡毫无畏惧。然而，也有些日子我觉得自己像是好运中的一个随机存在，可能会被愤怒的命运击垮，归于虚无，而这让我感到害怕。你怎么看待虚无？我觉得这本身就是很可怕的事。是的，那确实很可怕。我曾经花了很长时间被这些事情折磨，但在过去的几年里，我开始相信人生是有意义的，我们有某种精神或灵魂的存在。我不太确定是否存在上帝，但无论如何，我们都应该以同样的方式生活。我倾向于认为生命有某种形而上的意义，而部分意义就是去寻找其意义所在。
But at other points you can you know you read too much science you get wrapped up in the nothingness of it all also there's a component to your brain we're talking about weathering heights by Emily Bronte you said that you have been by fortune struck with a bit of a capacity for the grandiosity of feeling so you feel the world deeply sometimes romantic sometimes overly romantic you've said I like this line feelings made destroy you but they're the best thing we have so that ability to feel the world is that a gift or a curse for you what do you think that's a really interesting question because it's obviously both you know times it's both or times it's one or the other when things are going well when you feel alive when you feel like you're connected two things when you're seeing beauty in people and joy and experiences of course it's it's wonderful when you're feeling like you know bereft and set a drift by the world and you can't connect it to it in some way and you're lost and abandoned by God or consciousness or fate or whatever it is it's awful you know when I feel like a dreadful hack which is most of the time you know it's terrible you rather not we've been doing this rubbish and then sometimes you're working creatively and it feels good and you feel like you're doing the right thing and it feels fantastic but that's not very often.
在某些时候，当你读了太多科学书籍时，你会被它的空洞感困住。然而，我们的大脑还有另一面，就像我们谈论艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》时那样，你说过自己幸运地拥有一点感受宏大的能力，所以你能够深刻地感觉到这个世界，有时是浪漫的，有时又是过于浪漫的。你曾说过一句我很喜欢的话：“感觉可能会摧毁你，但它们是我们拥有的最好的东西。”那么，这种感受世界的能力，是对你来说一种天赋还是一种诅咒呢？我觉得这是一个非常有趣的问题，因为显然它兼而有之。有时候两者都有，有时候只有其中之一。当一切进展顺利、你感到充满活力、觉得与万物相连、在他人和经历中发现美与快乐时，当然是美好的。但当你觉得被世界抛弃、无法与之连接、感到迷失或被命运遗弃时，那就是糟糕的。大多数时候，我感觉自己像个无能的写手，那感觉令人沮丧，真希望自己不要一直在做这些无聊的事情。但偶尔，当你在创造性地工作，感觉很好，觉得自己在做正确的事情时，那种感觉也非常棒，但这种情况并不常见。
You think it's possible to have one without the other no yeah of course not when I think about growing up to the extent that I am capable of growing up it is about accepting the bad with the good from any situation or any aspect of myself you know going okay it's not perfect or not perfect I said you often feel like a hack is that that soft critical part of your brain is that a feature or a bug that's it I think it's the the new thing that we're going to lean into the bug feature yeah it's both isn't it I mean it's it's it's it cannot lead that self-critical brain I think lots of people suffer from it and I think the internet is designed to induce if you didn't have it before you will have it after being online it's clearly can become a bug but it also can give you drive and a lack of complacency so it can also become a feature.
你觉得有可能只拥有一个而没有另一个吗？当然不可能。当我思考成长时，无论是在哪方面能有所成长，都是关于在任何情况下和对于我自身的任何方面都接受好与坏。你知道吗，就像是对自己说“好吧，这不完美，或者它不完美”。你经常感觉自己像个冒牌货吗？这是不是你大脑中那个温和的自我批评的部分？这到底是优点还是缺陷？我想这是我们要去探索的新事物——缺陷与优点兼具。是的，是两者。那种自我批评的思维，我们很多人都有，我觉得互联网就是设计来让人产生这种感觉的，即使你之前没有，上网后也会有。显然，它可以成为一个缺陷，但同时，它也可以给你动力，让你不会自满，因此，它也可以成为一个优点。
I had a pretty intense argument with Paul Conti who's a legendary psychiatrist student of the mind about this he worked with many famous creative people and he thinks that that negative voice is not at all needed for creative genius and I thought I know awfully a lot of creative people that have that voice I'd rather not have it but I certainly I've lived with it this far there's a danger that negativity for me that negativity and consciousness become the same thing you know and sometimes after fight to not just be perpetually negative and that can be part of the human struggle for lots of people and certainly has been for me I think if you're trying to do you know good stuff and you're reflective inevitably and you know you live in this world of constant constant criticisms by the internet of course you know everyone who ever puts something on the internet be a picture of themselves or any kind of work they've made or whatever it is is going to get 50 good comments and one bad comment remember the bad comment so that and that becomes fuel for the negative voice.
我和保罗·康提进行了激烈的争论，他是一位传奇的精神科医生，研究心灵的问题。他认为，那种消极的声音对创造性的天才并不是必需的。但是，我认识很多有这种声音的创意人士。虽然我不希望这样，但这些年来我一直有这种声音。对我来说，有一种危险是消极性和意识会混为一谈。有时我必须努力不一直保持消极态度，而这对于许多人来说可能是人类的共同挣扎。对我来说，尤其如此。我认为当你努力做好事情并进行反思时，这是不可避免的。我们生活在一个经常受到网络批评的世界。任何在网上发布作品或自拍的人，都会收到几十条好评和一条差评，但我们往往只记住那条差评，而这条差评会成为助长消极声音的燃料。
I don't know anyone that's strong enough not to know you know we all you know some level you should just measure that stuff in weight not in not in quality but of course we just focus on the quality and I do think in general as you get older that's the real challenge for people you see the different trajectories people choose to take but it's easy to slip into cynicism and negativity into this uh does the f'skees notes from underground nihilistic kind of world view I think the heroic action to take with time is to become more optimistic to see more good uh I think that there's probably a hero's journey of being extremely self-critical at first for the first maybe half of your life or two-thirds and then while maintaining some self-critical aspects just to stay humble start to see the good in everything around you and other people in the world and even maybe every once in a while on a weekend in yourself I hope so I mean that's what I've been I could not be more cynical have you put that beautifully.
我不知道有没有人足够强大，不会意识到我们在某种程度上都知道你知道的，应该用重量来衡量这些东西，而不是质量，但当然，我们总是关注质量。我确实认为，随着年龄增长，对人们来说真正的挑战是，你会看到不同的人生轨迹选择，但很容易陷入犬儒主义和消极的、虚无主义的世界观中。我认为，随着时间的推移，采取乐观态度是一个英雄般的行动，看到更多的美好。我相信，人的一生可能是一场英雄之旅，起初的前半段甚至三分之二的时间，我们可能非常自我批评，但在保持一些自我批评以保持谦逊的同时，开始看到周围事物的美好，看到世界上其他人的美好，甚至偶尔的周末中看到自身的优点。我希望如此，这也是我一直努力的方向。最初我是多么地愤世嫉俗，而你却把这表达得如此美丽。
I could not be more cynical than I was as a child you know I could not see goodness anywhere I couldn't see you know I don't think uh late 1970s to early 1990s England was a great it was a great you know optimism and the naivety it was brutal and I was brutal I was brutal within it and I think I've become much more naive and and tried to become more innocent in some ways and always tried to see the flawed good in people you know I've tried to I've had to force myself to be like that because you know the other way is not fun it's not nice to it's not nice to not be nice as a brief aside you had a wonderful conversation with Ryan McAfry at LA Comic Con I've been a big fan of his for a long time he writes amazing stuff at IGN and he has a great podcast I really should go listen to it I really enjoyed it plus I get to attend a Comic Con and just be there in the audience and like we're saying offline the LA Comic Con it's the first Comic Con I've been to it's just all kinds of real genuine nerds good-hearted.
自小以来，我本来就再也无法比当时更愤世嫉俗了，你知道的，我那时就认为哪里都不存在善良。我觉得从上世纪70年代末到90年代初的英国并没有什么乐观和天真，那段时间非常严酷，我也是那个环境中的一部分，内心也无比冷酷。相反，现在我变得更天真，也在努力变得更无邪，在某种程度上总尝试看到人性中的缺陷和优点。我必须逼自己如此选择，因为另一种活法并不快乐，也不愉快，对人不友善让人不快。顺便说一句，我曾在洛杉矶动漫展（LA Comic Con）与Ryan McAfry有过一场精彩的对话，我一直以来都是他的粉丝，他在IGN上写了许多精彩的文章，还有个出色的播客，我真的应该去听听。我真的很享受那次对话，还能参加动漫展，然后坐在观众席上，正如我们在线下所说的，这是我第一次参加的动漫展，那里有着各种真实而真诚的极客们，心地善良。
Oh I said yeah it's just so much kindness and goodness and just simple joy in being a fan of a thing yeah which is what those things are all about yeah okay so let's talk about some of the greatest books of all time and I should also give a shout out to an excellent podcast you do with Sanya Walgher who's a friend of yours but she had a great podcast she has guests picked their five favorite most impactful books and so on you picked five fiction books one for each decade of your life for the audience they should go listen to that conversation but you picked winter holiday by Arthur Redsum second one was weathering Heist by Emily Bronte then tenors the night by F Scott Fritz Gerald the thin red line by James Jones and middle March by George Elliott but just zooming out reflecting back on that conversation what do you think if an alien came what are what are some candidates for books that you'll recommend to them.
哦，我是说，是的，成为某个事物的粉丝，就是感受到那么多的善意、美好和简单的快乐，对吧，这也正是这些事物的意义所在。那么，让我们来谈谈一些有史以来最伟大的书籍。我还要特别提到一下，你和你的朋友Sanya Walgher一起制作的一个很棒的播客。她的播客很有意思，邀请嘉宾选择他们喜欢的五本对他们产生重大影响的书。而你选择了五本小说，每本代表了你人生中的一个十年。我建议大家去听一听那次对话。你选择了亚瑟·兰塞姆的《冬季假期》，艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》，F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德的《夜色温柔》，詹姆斯·琼斯的《血战》和乔治·艾略特的《米德尔马契》。回顾那次对话，如果有外星人来拜访，你认为有哪些书籍可以推荐给他们呢？
Middle march the best novel written in English war and peace it's the one of the best novels written in Russian I would argue I think both of those are because if you've only got one book you want a long book yeah true and and they're both books that kind of it's something I was always trying to put into games and you know that feeling of all of life is here you know you've got love death violence romance the whole human experience in different ways so I think that there's something amazing about you know vanity fair I used to use to love the novel not not the magazine because the same thing all of life is here.
《米德尔马契》是最优秀的英文小说，《战争与和平》则是我认为最优秀的俄文小说之一。我觉得这两本书的优秀之处在于，如果你只能选择一本书，你会希望它是一本长篇小说。它们都完美地呈现了整个人生的感觉——无论是爱、死亡、暴力还是浪漫，这些不同方式展现了完整的人类体验。我曾经非常喜欢《名利场》这部小说，不是那个杂志，因为这部小说同样呈现了整个人生的多个方面。
Your spoke highly of Scott Fritz Gerald and Hemingway I was obsessed by them in my 20s yeah as one must be yeah absolutely and I think them as a double act is so amazing you know one helped discover the other and then died first and then suddenly it died in in obscurity and then was rediscovered as a genius while the other one was still alive and falling into not obscurity but into decline I think it's that their relationship is itself very novelistic that by the way as a phenomena of writing maybe no longer maybe still that you know people like Franz Kafka who died in obscurity like all these writers died obscurity not nobody knows them and they become famous later yeah that is just so interesting that's such an interesting.
你高度评价了斯科特·菲茨杰拉德和海明威。我在二十多岁时也非常迷恋他们。是的，就像人们必然会经历的一样，我同意。我觉得他们作为一个组合是非常精彩的。你知道，其中一个帮助发现了另一个，然后第一个去世了，突然在默默无闻中死亡，之后被重新发现为天才，而另一个在他仍然活着时也逐渐从知名度中走向衰落。我认为他们的关系本身就像小说情节。顺便说一句，这种写作现象可能仍然存在，可能不存在了。像弗朗茨·卡夫卡这样的人在默默无闻中死去，很多作家都是这样，他们在去世后才成名，这真的很有趣，非常引人入胜。
You know that Franz Kafka and Franz Kafka is in particular as fascinating because he wanted all of his work to be burnt like destroyed so that in speaking of the critical voice is just and I think he's one of the one of the best writers of the 20th century of course the dystopian novels are really interesting they're 84 uh brave new world love 1984 had never listened to it already and then I think I did it on talking book or maybe read it I can't remember drawing covid and became I think I did both became obsessed by it and it's the elements of that creeping into a better paradise but it's so good I hadn't realized how good it was yeah and it is so of the moment it's almost like because of his fame and yeah it's almost like cliche and you think about the caricature and I remember the year 1984 and I remember the song there's too much it can't be that good and then it was that I came to it completely cold just I should get work my way through this because it's another classic I haven't read and then it's incredible.
你知道，弗兰兹·卡夫卡实在太吸引人了，尤其因为他希望自己的作品都被烧毁。因此，我们谈论他的作品时，评价常常是公正的。而且，我认为他绝对是20世纪最优秀的作家之一。当然，那些反乌托邦小说也非常有趣，比如《1984》和《美丽新世界》。我曾在疫情期间听过《1984》的有声书，也可能是读了它，我记不太清了，但我对这部作品着迷不已。小说中对未来的描绘在某种程度上与正在发生的事情产生共鸣，这是我之前没有意识到的。虽然很多人对卡夫卡的名声和人们对他的刻板印象都有些熟悉甚至觉得俗套，但真正读的时候会发现他的作品确实名不虚传。我记得1984年这首歌，还有那年发生的事，觉得不会那么好，但最终我还是决定读读这本经典之作，结果发现它真的是令人难以置信的好。
And the book I read more than any other book is Animal Farm by George I don't know why exactly but the child like fairy tale telling of totalitarian well you grew up in a communist country yeah maybe that's it the roots of it I remember you know I was a kid in the Cold War in London and we were always terrified of Eastern Europeans you were going to come and kill us all and then I ended up marrying a poll and and I was we were and we had Ukrainians you know who who who worked worked for us and worked with us and I was sitting a few years ago sitting around a campfire in upstate New York surround with the campfire was built by our old nannies husband who's Ukrainian.
我读得最多的一本书是乔治·奥威尔的《动物农场》。我也说不清为什么，也许是因为这本书用童话的方式讲述了极权主义。你知道，我是在共产主义国家长大的，也许这就是原因的根源。我记得小时候在冷战期间，我在伦敦生活，当时我们总是害怕东欧人会来攻击我们。后来，我和一位波兰人结婚，而且我们曾雇佣和合作过的也有乌克兰人。几年前，我在纽约上州围坐在篝火旁，而那堆篝火是我们以前的保姆的丈夫搭建的，他是乌克兰人。
And he'd been in the red army and I was like history is so strange that you end up the red army used to be the ultimate enemy and I was just hanging out with it but everything changes you think these you think these things are permanent and they're really not yeah you know we face some of that now where you think these structures are permanent and they're going to change.
他曾在红军服役，我就觉得历史真的很奇妙。红军曾是最大的敌人，但现在我却和它混在一起。事情总是会改变的。你以为这些东西是永久的，但其实并不是。是的，我们现在也面对着类似的情况，你以为这些结构是永久的，但它们终究会改变。
And you also mentioned the three great world war two books are the thin red line life and fate by the state Grossman and the end of the affair ground green uh what makes for great war book well I think world war two is interesting because it affects everywhere obviously and so you can get all these different kinds of stories in there's so many good I was just trying to come up with a range of one American one British one Eastern European uh just to get just different perspectives but there's so many amazing world war two books around all kinds of stories.
你还提到了三本关于二战的伟大书籍：《薄薄的红线》《生活与命运》由斯塔尔·格罗斯曼创作，以及《恋情的终结》由格雷厄姆·格林创作。那么，什么才能成就一本伟大的战争书籍呢？我认为二战之所以有趣，是因为它显然影响到了全世界，因此可以展现各种不同的故事。我试图从美国、英国和东欧选取几个不同视角的书籍，但其实有很多优秀的二战书籍，涵盖各种类型的故事。
I think the most complete one because it is this all of life being there probably is life and fate which is amazing and it was uh written by the state Grossman he experienced Stalingrad first hand and there's also just a deep full soft book component and the bit in Treblinka is one of the most harrowing sections I need book ever read and it really almost more than any other uh piece of art around the Holocaust made me feel what you would feel like at that moment and it's just incredible piece of humanism.
我认为这是一本最完整的书，因为它涵盖了生活的方方面面，可能包含了生命和命运的主题，非常精彩。这本书是由作家格罗斯曼所写，他亲身经历了斯大林格勒。此外，书中还包含了深刻的哲理部分，其中关于特雷布林卡的章节是我读过的书中最令人震撼的段落之一。这本书让我比其他任何关于大屠杀的艺术作品都更能感受到当时的感受，真是一部令人难以置信的人文杰作。
And also just I mean mansards from meaning by Victor Frank oh yeah it seems like that context reveals in the most pure way human nature and like what kind of you know in mansards from meaning is when everything is taken from you you know the little remains of love for in this case his wife it's the thing that is a little flame that burns and obviously a Grossman is small acts of kindness is the thing that allows the human spirit to persist.
这段文字提到的是维克多·弗兰克尔在"活出生命的意义"一书中所表达的观点。作者认为，当一个人失去一切时，书中所描述的这种极端情境最纯粹地揭示了人性。在这种情况下，即便是对妻子的那一点点爱的残存之情，也像一团小火焰，给予人以力量。而像是小小的善举这种行为，正是让人类精神得以持续的关键。
I love the bit in life and fate when you get obviously it's in this Stalinist period and so the they're all losing they all know that what they thought was going to be wonderful about the revolution isn't going to happen so there's a whole and everyone scared of being killed by Stalin because it's post the purges but then you get these guys and they're trapped in a building fighting in Stalingrad and uh so they know at this moment they're dead anyway and they get to live like pure perfect Marxist communists away from Stalin all his nonsense.
我喜欢《生活与命运》中的一个片段，这故事发生在斯大林时期。人们逐渐意识到，他们曾以为革命会带来的美好未来无法实现。每个人都害怕被斯大林杀害，因为这是大清洗之后的时期。然而，有一些人被困在斯大林格勒的一座建筑物中与敌人作战，他们知道自己死期将至。但在这个瞬间，他们能够远离斯大林和他的那些荒谬做法，过上纯粹而完美的马克思主义共产生活。
And I thought that section is incredible because you realize like it in some ways in all of its horrors the most disappointing thing about the 20th century in some ways was the absolute failure of communism you know it was because it was such a you know quote unquote beautiful idea and it just did not work time and time again and these people who fought for it and then saw it not working I think they're sort of fascinating characters you know all of the all of the revolutionaries from 1917 that were then killed by Stalin which was all of them apart from him and him and Lenin.
我觉得那段真是太不可思议了，因为你会意识到，在20世纪所有的可怕事件中，某种程度上最令人失望的是共产主义的彻底失败。因为这本是一个所谓的“美好”理念，但总是无法成功。那些为共产主义而奋斗的人们，面对失败的结果，他们真是让人感到很有意思的角色。比如1917年革命的那些人，后来几乎都被斯大林处决了，除了斯大林和列宁之外，他们全都遭遇了不幸。
And there was you know people in modern day politics talk about communism like it's trivial it's trivial that it would lead to atrocities but I don't think it's that trivial it's uh it's this idealism of humans yeah it's like why you know why can't basically why can't we all get along there's a real. compassion behind there's real love and that what you realize is there is it's a real study the 20th century of human nature that unfortunately at scale that kind of compassion is abused by centralized powers so there's a dictator always in that context in in those given that set of technologies a dictator arises and does the opposite of what the the promise of the ideal is supposed to be well I think I thought a lot about that then because I was taught by all these disappointed communists you know after 89 all of these English communists you know we're all like having to accept discovering all these atrocities that happened didn't you know so it was always fascinated me and then you think about complexities or where one's own values are in the modern moment and I say you know without from from the e and whether either of them any what we would call left now or call right now does it have any bearing on on the sort of communist era of those words and I would say probably not think the things have changed but fundamentally the one value that I would go I think is worth fighting for is go whenever either side starts to move towards thought control move away that's never the right outcome the never right outcome is oh you've said the wrong thing you should be removed now that should never ever be a thing we should lean towards yeah it does seem like freedom individual freedom is a prerequisite for happiness for in a flourishing of a larger society so there's like you said 1984 is pretty I mean it's a caricature but it is pretty it's quite it's actually also just a good story as my criticism of brave new world it's just poorly written but I like brave new world probably applies more to the 21st century than does 1984 I think 1984 with the fake walls yeah and the way that it revealed everything and it was a setup for him yeah there's something if you could have seen the internet there's something it's like it's like an analog internet that will be built around the main character.
在现代政治中，人们谈论共产主义时有时表现得很轻描淡写，好像觉得必然会引发暴行是件微不足道的事情。但我并不认为这很简单。共产主义是一种理想主义，背后有一种真实的同情和爱，像是一个“为什么我们不能和睦相处”的追求。但不幸的是，在20世纪的历史中，我们看到这种同情在大规模上被集权滥用，总有一个独裁者在这个环境中崛起，做的事情与理想的承诺背道而驰。我对此曾有很多思考，因为我受过许多失望的共产主义者的教导，尤其是在1989年之后，这些英国共产主义者开始不得不接受揭露出的那些暴行。这一直让我着迷，而现代社会中的复杂性或个人价值观也让我思考，并不认为目前所谓的左派和右派与过去共产主义时代的定义有什么直接关系。我认为最值得捍卫的价值是，当任何一方开始倾向于思想控制时，我们应该远离。这永远不是正确的结果，我们永远不应该鼓励因言获罪的现象。个人自由是幸福和更大社会繁荣的先决条件。就像提到的《1984》一样，虽然它有些夸张，但也是个好故事。相比之下，我对《美丽新世界》的批评是它写得不够好，但它可能比《1984》更适用于21世纪。《1984》中有虚假的墙壁，还有揭露一切的方式，这些预示了一个不同的技术环境，像是为主人公构建的一种模拟的互联网。
What advice would you give to a young person today about let's say career how how to have a career they can be proud of how they can have a proud of you've had a non-standard life I've had a lucky life and which I have fought to mess things up and fate has always thrown me a bone you've traveled in South America and had hobos chase you with machetes yeah yeah yeah yeah so that happened a series of poor life decisions yeah and I run away you know I was I mean I ran away to South America that was a poor decision I ran away from the guy with a knife that was a good decision yeah I came to America that was a good decision I ran came to LA that's I think being a good decision it's been fun to see a different side of America and being a different creating environment LA is still amazing for creativity and entertainment the wider entertainment industry stuff I think that's been fun what would I say I would say when you get a chance take it that was one thing I did do well when I got chances I was good at taking them I would say do not worry too young about your career I would say worry about having a rounded intellectual in a life because you're going to spend the whole of your life in your own head so the more interesting you find your own head the more interesting you find the world the less you're going to annoy yourself so I would say I would say do not do a vocational degree as an undergraduate that's my mind I would say do something else do something you know random and then focus afterwards that would be I think I was advocating against the obsession that people had about four years ago with STEM subjects and now AI is going to make them all irrelevant anyway so you know it's interesting to see everything changes jobs are not that hard you know turn up being enthusiastic we turn up in person being enthusiastic help people say you'll be finding any job people you know the job is no one the chance to take showed up like this is okay this is interesting this is new this is different not always no but I did the big times where the chance to move to America for me that was a big moment my life was a mess those weird timings.
给现代年轻人关于职业的建议，我会说：如何拥有一个让自己感到自豪的职业呢？我一直过着不太标准的生活，可以说是幸运的，虽然我总是可能把事情搞砸，但命运总会眷顾我。
例如，我曾在南美洲旅行，遇到过流浪汉拿着砍刀追着我跑，这都是一系列糟糕的生活决定造成的。我逃往南美是个错误的决定，但逃离那个拿刀的人却是个正确的决定。我来到了美国，这是一个好的决定；我到了洛杉矶，我认为这也是一个好的决定。在洛杉矶看到美国的不同面貌，在这里创造性的环境中发展，实在是有趣而且充满活力。
如果要给建议，我会说：当机会来临时，把握住它。这一点我做得不错，得到了机会就紧紧抓住。其次，不要过早为职业担忧，而是注重培养全面的知识和生活，因为你的生活始终是在自己头脑中进行的，让自己的头脑更有趣，才能让生活更有趣，减少自我烦扰。
我建议大学阶段不要选择职业导向的专业，可以先学习一些随机有趣的知识，然后再专注于职业。几年前，人们过于痴迷于STEM领域，但现在随着AI的发展，这些领域可能很快就会变得不那么相关了。其实，工作并不难，关键是以热情的态度面对它们，亲自去尝试，积极帮助别人，这样你会惊讶地发现工作机会不难找。
最重要的是，学会抓住关键的机会。有时生活中的奇怪时机，反而会带来重大转机，比如我移居美国的决定，尽管当时生活一片混乱，却是我生命中的一个重要转折点。
I read that Sam wrote you an email yeah in South America I literally I was in South America in Columbia when there was a war raging there yeah I was making a series of very poor life choices and a lack of life skills age 25 my latest poor choice was to get up too early because the police didn't start work till nine but the mug has started at eight and so I was out walking along the beach at eight and these guys this raster turned up when I've been talking to the day before was I trying to talk to me and then two guys came up to talk to him and I couldn't tell if they were trying to mug him because he owed the money or he'd bought me to them but I did notice one of them had a machete and now that I kind of broken gun so I thought this is not good and I ran off sprinted down the beach in my in my silly shoes and got to the charts once in my life to run over to a road run jump into a taxi and scream you know take me anywhere feel like I'm an action movie and now guys chasing after the machete.
我听说Sam给你写了封邮件，对吧？我当时在南美洲，具体来说是在哥伦比亚，当时那边正爆发战争。年仅25岁的我，做了一些糟糕的生活选择，缺乏生活技能。其中一个糟糕的选择就是起床太早，因为警察要九点才上班，而抢劫犯八点就开始活动。我在八点的时候走在海滩上，结果遇到了之前认识的一个拉斯塔法里人，他试图和我交谈。然后有两个人走过来跟他说话，我搞不清他们是来抢他的，因为他欠他们钱，还是他把我带给他们。我看到其中一个人拿着砍刀，还有一个人拿着一把破旧的枪。我意识到情况不妙，就在海滩上拼命跑，穿着我的滑稽鞋子，跑到大街上，跳进一辆出租车里，大喊："带我离开这里!"就像在拍动作电影，而那些拿着砍刀的人在后面追我。
And the taxi driver looks back sees the dude the machete and goes see he's on amigos and then all my friends get me out of here and then I um he drove me up the street into a bit where the town was um it's kind of between the old town and new town in carter and you and um I got out of the car and then cut my foot on a rock that was the some total of my injuries and um then went to the internet cafe because this was probably late 98 and got the chance to come and work on a game for six weeks in New York and I was like well if I stay in South America much longer I'm going to get myself killed because this was I was getting into silly stuff um and so went to New York and they're just starting rock star and so I got to sort of write the mission statements and what not there and and help set the tone for that and just ended up staying you know at the come and go a bit well the wheel visas got sorted out and then just ended up staying through last day for a year because New York's pretty fun.
出租车司机回头看到我和那个拿着砍刀的家伙后说：“再见，我的朋友们。”我的所有朋友都让我赶紧离开那里。然后他把我载到城里的某个地方，那是在旧城区和新城区之间。当我下车时，不小心被一块石头割伤了脚，这就是我所有的伤。然后我去了一个网吧，因为那大概是在1998年后期，我有机会去纽约工作六个星期参与一个游戏项目。我当时想，如果我再在南美待下去，可能会有生命危险，因为我开始做一些傻事。于是我去了纽约，正好赶上Rockstar公司创立初期，我有机会为他们撰写任务说明，并帮助设定公司氛围。签证问题解决后，我在那儿待了一年，因为纽约实在是太有趣了。
It actually was not that this was the height of Giuliani for user maniac um so he uh you couldn't when you went to bars you told you couldn't dance because they were trying to clamp down on New York being fun so it was actually less fun than London but it's still a great energy in New York and got exposed to the kind of madness of New York capitalism by the way as we hear sirens in the background that always makes me think in New York when I come in New York it's always siren steam coming out the floor people screaming at you I mean you get people screaming at you in LA at least yeah but it's more the strip is more spread out you get a bit more quiet yeah um and I love the energy you know it was great to work hard and then be able to go out for dinner late and and New York was really really a fun experience for me.
其实，当时朱利安尼的巅峰时期不在于此。去酒吧的时候，人们被告知不能跳舞，因为他们试图限制纽约的娱乐活动。所以那时的纽约实际上比伦敦的乐趣要少一些，但纽约仍然充满活力。我体验到了纽约资本主义的疯狂，就像我们听到背景中的警笛声，每次我来到纽约，都让我想到纽约的场景：蒸汽自地面冒出，人群在你身边尖叫。虽然在洛杉矶也能遇到有人对你喊叫，但那里更加分散宁静。纽约的活力让我着迷，我喜欢在努力工作之后，能够享受晚餐的乐趣。对我来说，纽约是一次非常有趣的经历。
You work with your brother Sam for many years uh what do you admire about him as a creative mind as a human being his drive and his vision early on to see what video games could become he was the one who understood that video games were the next big thing and I think that was uh you know people laugh in our face about that in those days and so to have someone that was strong and saying no no we stick to say to the course and then having the confidence to push through with these big projects.
你和你的哥哥山姆一起工作了很多年。作为一个有创造力的人和一个人类个体，你钦佩他什么？他早期对电子游戏发展潜力的敏锐洞察力。他是那个理解电子游戏将成为下一个重大趋势的人。我记得在那些日子里，人们对此嘲笑我们。然而，他坚定不移地坚持自己的信念，并有信心推进这些大型项目。
Are you excited for the future of video games yeah I think the right I completely I still I still look up I'm glad you've spoken so I mean you've spoken so kindly about our work about the stuff that I did and the stuff the whole teams did it's wonderful but I just look at and see problems and see things that we can make do better you know I think uh it was always each try each try to do it better and I've got you know some of the stuff we're working on now is going to do stuff that people haven't really seen before uh and I think it's just I think the games can get so much better they can feel so much more alive all that they can be better at storytelling and feel.
你对电子游戏的未来感到兴奋吗？是的，我现在完全同意这种感觉。我感到欣慰因为你如此友好地评价了我们和整个团队所做的工作，这很棒。但我只是看到了可以改进的问题和可以做得更好的地方。你知道吗，每次尝试我们都想做得更好。我们现在正在研发的一些东西将带来人们从未见过的体验。我相信游戏可以变得更好，可以更加生动，可以在讲故事方面做得更好，给人更深的感受。
More alive and feel like you know their systems all the stuff the component parts we talked about you can we can both make each of those parts better and tie them together better I think it's the technology is all it to me it's still feels like it's only just beginning you know it's been it's been cinema evolved from like nineteen hundred eighteen ninety five whenever it was until they invented talking in 1930 or whatever that was not that and then it's kind of found its modern form and then by thirty nine they're shooting in color and that's basically a modern film is no different from a nineteen thirty nine film but with games I still think we've got a long way to go.
这个句子可以翻译为中文：
“更加生动，并且感觉你好像了解它们的系统——我们讨论过的所有组件部分。我们可以让每一个部分变得更好，并且将它们更好地结合在一起。我认为这项技术对我来说仍然感觉像是刚刚开始。你知道，电影从1895年或1900年开始演变，直到1930年发明了有声电影，然后才找到了现代的形式。到了1939年，电影已经是彩色的，基本上现代电影和1939年的电影没有太大区别。但对于游戏来说，我仍然觉得我们还有很长的路要走。”
The tech there's so many different parts the tech that it's still got a long way to go and you can go in all different fun directions I just wish I know you said video games take a lot less than the possible they they could but I just wish it was faster like you've already made me fall in love with absurd of earth and you've made me fall in love with the better paradise and now I am going to sit depressed realizing what I have to wait I go of course read well we should have some little short cartoons coming out in a while from third of us and more stuff coming in the next period but yeah it just takes it takes a little bit of time and I think I mean movies you big movies are four years plus from start to end yeah you know all the legal stuff at the start you know we'll be about this.
科技领域有许多不同的部分，因此它的发展还有很长的路要走，可以朝着许多有趣的方向发展。我知道你说过，电子游戏所需的时间比可能的要少，但我只是希望进展能快一些。你已经让我爱上了奇异的世界，也让我爱上了更好的天堂，而现在我却要坐在这儿沮丧地等待。当然，我可以去读点书，不过我们很快就会有一些短片动画推出，还有更多内容将在接下来的一段时间内发布，但这确实需要一点时间。我认为，像大电影从开始到结束需要四年以上的时间，您知道，初期还有很多法律上的事情需要处理。
Yeah and certain movies from idea to completion I mean take ten plus years of some of the games and a lot of that's just that development process that is really sometimes feels like it's designed to not make stuff a bit more of a specific advice but on the topic of video games what advice would you give to to maybe independent video game creators they're dreaming of creating great games they're inspired by red dead and they're aspiring of all the incredible open worlds and narratives you've created like how's it possible to have a chance of doing something.
是的，从构思到完成，一些电影可能需要十年以上的时间来完成，就像许多游戏一样。这主要是因为开发过程有时看起来像是故意设定得很复杂，让事情变得更难。在谈到视频游戏的主题时，你会给可能希望创造出色游戏的独立视频游戏创作者什么建议呢？他们受到《荒野大镖客》和你所创造的那些令人惊叹的开放世界和故事的启发。他们渴望实现这一目标，那要如何才有机会做到呢？
I mean it's part of the two two ways try and do it cheaply with yourself in a small group or join a company that you think is doing it the right way you know I think there's upsides to either of those I think if you want to make something that's cinematic AI is going to change some of this but if you want to make something cinematic you need resources you can still make something that's really interesting that isn't super cinematic but it's an interesting experience in some ways but the second you're involving actors and motion capture and one of those big experiences it's going to cost some money so therefore if you want to do that you've got to figure out what companies you want to work out figure out how you get to work there.
我的意思是，这有两种不同的方法：你可以选择和自己或一些小伙伴一起尝试以低成本进行；或者加入一家你认为在正确方式运营的公司。我觉得这两种选择各有优缺点。如果你想做一些有电影感的作品，人工智能可能会改变其中的一部分，但要实现电影级的效果，你还是需要一些资源。即便不是那么电影化的作品，你依然可以做出非常有趣的东西，但这个作品会在某些方面提供一种有趣的体验。不过，一旦涉及到演员和动作捕捉等大规模的体验，就会需要一些费用。因此，如果你想做这种类型的作品，就需要考虑选择哪些公司合作，并搞清楚如何在那些公司工作。
Do you have do you have hope for AI helping with some of the video some of the video generation some of the world generation some of the open world assistance in generating the world yes limited absolutely if used correctly it will be a great tool if used incorrectly it will lead to loads of generic stuff yeah you know I've been in games for 29 years and all the time the piece of tech that's going to make making games much easier and much cheaper is about to turn up and all that's happened is the games have got much better and way more expensive so I'm always nervous about saying finally we have that bit of tech that makes our lives easier but it looks as if it might be able to do that when you use it the right way if you use it you know if you use it to try and as a substitute for creativity it's going to be really generic a big ridiculous question what's the meaning of this whole thing we have gone on here of life of existence why are we here to watch the universe the easiest plausible answer is we are designed by the universe to watch itself and to comment on it in interesting ways consistently more and more interesting ways yeah.
你对人工智能帮助视频生成、世界生成和开放世界辅助生成是否有希望？是的，有限度地有。如果正确使用，它将是一个很好的工具；如果使用不当，会导致大量泛滥的内容。我在游戏行业工作了29年，一直听说即将出现一项技术，可以使游戏制作变得更简单、更便宜。但实际上，游戏变得越来越好，同时也更昂贵。因此，我总是对“最终我们有了让生活更轻松的技术”这种说法持谨慎态度。不过，如果正确使用，这项技术确实有可能实现这个目标。如果把它当作创造力的替代品，结果将会非常缺乏创意。
至于生命和存在的意义，为什么我们在这里？一个简单且可行的答案是：我们是宇宙设计出来的，为的是观察自己，并以越来越有趣的方式对其进行评论。
What role does love play as part of that it's the only thing that makes it possibly worth doing everything else everything material is irrelevant so the only things of value are these immaterial things you know I do think metaphysics always trumps physics for me well Dan from the bottom of my heart speaking of love thank you what a pleasure thank you man thank you for everything you've created in this world at me and millions of diehard fans of your games are forever grateful I know there's a lot of people that would like to say thank you to you just to be clear because I always like to make this very clear yeah it was never me it was always me sat alongside people with actual real talent who did amazing things.
爱在其中扮演什么角色呢？爱是唯一使其他一切值得去做的东西，其他的物质都是无关紧要的，真正有价值的是这些无形的东西。我确实认为对我来说，形而上学总是胜过物理学。丹，从我心底里谈爱，感谢你，这是一种莫大的欣慰。谢谢你为这个世界创造的一切，我和数以百万计的狂热粉丝都永远感激你。我知道有很多人想要对你表达感谢。 要说明一下，我总是喜欢明确这一点，那就是，绝不是我一个人的功劳，而是我和那些真正有才华的人一起坐在一起，他们完成了惊人的事情。
Well I hope you keep being self-critical and creating awesome stuff in the world and we can't wait to keep exploring the worlds you create and thank you so much for talking to your brother thank you for having me what a privilege thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Hauser to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me ask questions get feedback and so on and now let me leave you with some words from Ernest Hemingway one of Dan's and my favorite writers the world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
希望你继续保持自我反思，不断创造出精彩的作品。我们迫不及待地想探索你创造的世界，非常感谢你与我们分享这些，也感谢你的到来。这是一种莫大的荣幸。感谢你收听与丹·豪瑟的对话。为了支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商信息，你还可以在那里找到联系我的链接、提问、获取反馈等方式。最后，我想借用厄尼斯特·海明威的一句话结束：世界会伤害每一个人，而那些在伤痕处强大起来的人却很多。感谢你的收听，希望下次再见。