Inside Google's AI turnaround: AI Mode, AI Overviews, and vision for AI-powered search | Robby Stein
发布时间 2025-10-10 23:28:26 来源
It feels like something has changed internally at Google. Just last week, Google Gemini hit the number one app in the app store. I feel like nobody saw this coming. Google's mission around having any information be universally accessible is a very enduring, very motivating thing. It feels like with the AI moment, we can actually achieve that more than ever before. What I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency. Things have hit a tipping point where these models are now truly able to deliver for consumers.
感觉谷歌内部有一些变化。就在上周，谷歌的双子星（Google Gemini）成为了应用商店的第一名应用。我觉得没有人预料到这一点。谷歌让所有信息都可以被普遍获取的使命一直以来都是非常持久且有激励作用的。现在是人工智能的关键时期，我们能够比以往任何时候都更接近实现这个使命。我现在感受到的是一种难以置信的专注感和紧迫感。事情已经到了一个临界点，这些模型现在真的能够为消费者提供服务。
As ChatGPT emerged over the past couple of years and perplexity emerged, a lot of people were just like Google is dead. Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links. The core Google search isn't really changing in my opinion. Seeing that, people come to search for just a ridiculously wide set of things. They want a specific phone number. They want a price for something. They want to get directions. I think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people. AI is expansionary. There's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI.
在过去的几年中，随着ChatGPT和Perplexity的出现，很多人开始认为谷歌已经走向衰落。人们不再愿意浏览搜索结果和点击链接。在我看来，谷歌的核心搜索功能并没有太大变化。实际上，人们来进行搜索的目的非常广泛。例如，他们想查找一个特定的电话号码、了解某样东西的价格或获取路线信息。我认为，许多人并没有意识到这种多样性的存在。人工智能是扩展性的。现在有越来越多的问题被提出来，人工智能可以满足人们的好奇心。
You've built a lot of very successful products. You use this phrase, embodying relentless improvement. You need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things. One is relentlessness, like just complete effort that is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity. And the second is making things better. You always make things better. You're never content. You've built and launched stories at Instagram. Back in the day, it's quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well and then said, hey, let's bring it to Instagram.
你打造了许多非常成功的产品。你常用这个词组，体现出永无止境的改进。你需要成为两种特质的化身。第一种是无休止的努力，即不断地在积极生产力的方向上付出全部努力。第二种是改进事物的能力。你总是让事情变得更好，从不满足于现状。你曾在Instagram上推出了"故事"功能。在那个时候，这一举动颇具争议，因为它基本上是借鉴了Snapchat非常成功的做法，然后将其引入了Instagram。
Not every great thing is going to be invented by you. Basically, it probably created the modern feed. But there's a feed for every single product. At the end of the day, you're kind of robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product. Today, my guest is Robbie Stein. Robbie is VP of product for Google Search and is responsible for essentially the entire Google Search experience, including the new AI overviews, AI mode, multi-modal AI experiences like Google Lens, the ranking algorithm, and a lot more.
不是每一个伟大的发明都会由你来创造。基本上，它可能创造了现代信息流，但每个产品都有自己的信息流。最终，你可能剥夺了用户获得更好产品的机会。今天，我的嘉宾是Robbie Stein。Robbie是谷歌搜索的产品副总裁，负责几乎整个谷歌搜索体验，包括新的 AI 概述、AI 模式、像 Google Lens 这样的多模态 AI 体验、排名算法等许多方面。
He's at the forefront of one of the biggest shifts in Google's history and has already made a massive dent in Google's trajectory. He's also made a massive dent in the trajectory of Instagram, where he was head of product and led the launch of Instagram stories and reels and close friends. Through that, he grew Instagram to half a billion daily active users. He's also on the founding team of Artifact with My Krieger and Kevin System and started two companies of his own.
他处于谷歌历史上最大变革之一的前沿，并且已经对谷歌的发展方向产生了重大影响。他也对Instagram的发展轨迹产生了重大影响，曾担任产品负责人，领导推出了Instagram Stories、Reels和"密友"功能。在他的带领下，Instagram的日活跃用户增长到了5亿。他还与My Krieger和Kevin System共同创立了Artifact，并创办了两家公司。
Very few people have had this level of impact on two global consumer products at this scale. Robbie shares all of the biggest lessons that he's learned about building great and successful consumer products, along with a bunch of insights into where Google is headed in the world of AI. A huge thank you to Bart Stein for suggesting topics for this conversation. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously.
很少有人能在如此大规模上对两个全球消费品产生这样的影响。Robbie分享了他在构建优质且成功的消费产品方面学到的所有重要经验，并提供了关于谷歌在人工智能领域未来发展的一些见解。特别感谢Bart Stein为这次对话提供的主题建议。如果你喜欢这个播客，不要忘记在你喜欢的播客应用或YouTube上订阅和关注，这对我们帮助很大。
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Robbie, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. This is such a cool week to be recording this podcast. So just last week, Gemini, Google Gemini, hit the number one app in the app store. I have it right here. It's still number one in the app store. It's above chat GPT. I feel like nobody saw this coming. I feel like everyone's always like Google. What have you guys been doing? You guys build all this amazing tech. And why didn't you have anything working in consumer? Why is chat GPT doing? Why are all these amazing companies doing better than Google?
Robbie，非常感谢你能来这里，欢迎参加这个播客。谢谢邀请我。这周能够录制这个播客真是太棒了。就在上周，谷歌的Gemini应用成为了应用商店的第一名。我这里正好有，它现在仍然是应用商店的第一名，还超越了ChatGPT。我感觉没有人预料到这个结果。大家一直在想，谷歌，你们到底在干什么？你们开发了这么多厉害的技术，为什么在消费者领域没什么动静？为什么ChatGPT和其他这么多优秀的公司表现得比谷歌还好？
So first of all, let me just say congrats. Congrats on, I know this isn't all you. I imagine you had some part in this, so just congrats. Many, many more people. Yes. It feels like something has changed internally at Google. It feels like things are starting to really work, especially on the AI consumer side. So in terms of the growth, is Nana Banana a source of a lot of this recent growth or some of those? People are really excited about Nana Banana to be clear very much, though. But I think also people are recognizing that there's just so many cool things that you can do across the Google center products. And they become quite powerful.
首先，让我说声祝贺。祝贺你，我知道这不全是你的功劳，但我想你对此也有贡献，所以还是祝贺你。是的，很多人都参与其中。感觉谷歌内部出现了一些变化，尤其是在面向消费者的人工智能方面，事情开始真正运作起来。在增长方面，Nana Banana是否是近期增长的一个重要来源？人们对Nana Banana非常感兴趣。但我认为，人们也意识到可以在谷歌的核心产品中做很多很酷的事情，这些产品变得非常强大。
And so I'm always shocked even for things in search. We think they're very obvious because they sit right in the core search experience. And then on X, I'll go look and like, oh, I just found out about this AI thing. And it seems very obvious. But I think a lot of people are just discovering quite how powerful these tools are now.
所以我总是感到震惊，即使是关于搜索的事情。我们认为它们非常明显，因为它们就在核心搜索体验中。而当我在平台X上查看时，我会发现，哦，我才刚了解到这个AI的东西。看起来很明显。但我认为很多人现在才刚刚意识到这些工具有多强大。
Yeah. So to go one level deeper to your point, there's been all this incredible tech. You guys wrote the original Transformers paper that have powered so much of the innovation. And it's just like, where has Google been? And actually, why are they building the thing that's winning? What has changed? Is it just like, okay, has there been like major reorgs? Have there been new leaders put in place? Is there just like a new philosophy in the past couple years that have led to this? The moment where Gemini is now the top app in the world?
好的。深入一点来看，你说得对，这些年涌现了许多令人惊叹的技术。你们撰写的最初Transformer论文推动了很多创新。那么，谷歌一直以来在做什么呢？究竟是什么让他们现在赢得了优势？发生了什么改变？是否进行了重大重组？引入了新的领导者？或者说，过去几年里有什么新的理念导致了现在这样的局面？比如Gemini现在成了全球最热门的应用。
Yeah. I mean, look, I've been at Google now. This is my second time at Google. So I started at Google in 2007, done a bunch of things in between, and I've been back at Google now. So I can't speak to that whole period for many, many years back to today. What I can tell you about what I'm feeling now is just an incredible sense of focus and urgency to deliver great products quickly. And I think that that is, in part, leadership for sure. I think the people who are, we work very closely with our partners at DeepMind, Google DeepMind. We work very closely, obviously, across the organization.
是的，我的意思是，请看，我现在在谷歌，这是我第二次在谷歌工作。我在2007年开始在谷歌工作，中间做了很多事情，现在又回到了谷歌。所以，我无法描述整个期间的详细情况。现在我能告诉你的是，我感受到一种极其专注和紧迫的氛围，以快速推出优质产品。我认为这在一定程度上归功于我们的领导层。当然，我们与DeepMind和Google DeepMind的合作伙伴紧密合作，显然也在整个组织内密切协作。
And it's just an incredible group of people, and also an incredible group of researchers and technical thinkers who have been thinking about this for a while. And so when you have that energy, and I think the product teams and the tech, the research groups are working really closely together, we're able to move, and we're getting a lot done. And so I don't think there's any one thing that has happened. I think that a lot of times people scribe a lot of momentum to a one-time change or a single person.
这真的是一个令人难以置信的团队，同时也是由一群非常优秀的研究人员和技术思想家组成的，他们已经在这个领域思考了很长一段时间。当你拥有这样的活力时，我认为产品团队、技术团队和研究小组就能够紧密合作，我们的进展非常迅速并且完成了很多工作。我不认为这是因为某一件事发生了改变。很多时候，人们往往把推动力归因于一次性变化或某一个人，但事实并非如此。
I find a lot of this is actually this compounding effect. And you think about just every month, like ruthlessly improving the product or the models. And just in every day getting better. And then it kind of just hits this tipping point where people just like it, they use it more, they enjoy it. And that's more of the feeling that I've had is just, you know, we've had kind of, I think, the right investment and focus. And then it just hit a moment where people are seeing the effects of that now.
我发现很多事情其实是这种复合效应的结果。你可以想象，每个月都在不遗余力地改进产品或模型，每天都在变得更好。然后，它就会达到一个临界点，人们开始喜欢它、更多地使用和享受它。这就是我感受到的情况，我们进行了正确的投资和关注，然后在某个时刻，人们开始看到这些努力的效果。
As Chatchy BT emerged over the past couple of years as perplexity, emerging, all these other chatbots. A lot of people were just like Google is dead. Nobody wants to sit through search results and click links. Why not just get your answer right there? And it feels like that's not all happening. It feels like you guys are doing just fine. What can you share by just the, I don't know, the state of Google search specifically? And then we'll talk about AI mode. Just like how is traffic going? How is search going? Considering all these things are out there. And just what are you seeing in the data since the launch of CHPT?
在过去几年里，随着Chatchy BT以及困惑度和其他这些聊天机器人不断出现，很多人认为谷歌已经过时了。人们不想再浏览搜索结果和点击链接，为什么不直接获取答案呢？但情况似乎并非如此，似乎你们做得很好。你能分享一下谷歌搜索的现状吗？然后我们会谈谈AI模式。就像是流量怎么样？搜索的情况如何？考虑到所有这些因素出现以来，你们在数据中看到了什么变化？
Yeah. Well, what's interesting is people come to search for just ridiculously wide set of things. Like all kinds of things. They want a specific phone number. They want a price for something. They want to get directions. They want to find a payment web page for their taxes. Like every possible thing you can imagine, I think the vastness of that is underappreciated by many people. And what we see is that that doesn't, it's not changing. Like AI hasn't really changed those foundational needs in many ways.
是的。有趣的是，人们搜索的东西实在是五花八门，什么都有。他们可能想找一个具体的电话号码，或是了解某个东西的价格，或者需要方向指引，甚至需要找到缴税的支付网页。可以说，几乎你能想到的各种各样的需求都有。我认为很多人都低估了这种多样性。我们观察到这些基本需求并没有改变，比如人工智能在很多方面并没有真正改变这些基础需求。
And what we're finding is that AI is expansionary. And so there's actually just more and more questions being asked and curiosity that can be fulfilled now with AI. And so that's where you get the growth. And so like the core Google search isn't really changing in my opinion. We're not seeing that. But you're getting this expansion moment. And so what we're seeing is for example, is you can now take a picture of something and ask about anything you see. And Google Lens, one of the fastest growing products out there, it's growing 70% year-over-year increase in visual searches, which is already like a massive scale. It's like billions and billions and billions of searching in that way.
我们发现人工智能具有扩展性。因此，现在有越来越多的问题可以被提出来，并且好奇心得到了满足，这就是增长的来源。在我看来，核心的谷歌搜索并没有真正发生变化，我们并没有看到这一点。但我们正处于一个扩展的时刻。例如，现在你可以拍下某物的照片，并询问有关你看到的任何信息。谷歌镜头（Google Lens）是其中增长最快的产品之一，视觉搜索的使用量每年增长70%。这已经是一个巨大的规模，每年有数十亿次这样的搜索。
But you can, you take a picture of your shoes. And say, where can I buy this? Or take a picture of homework? Say, I have stuck on question two. And then just take a picture of your bookshelf and say, what are the books I should get based on these books? And AI can help you with those things now. It's just an example of I think why there's so much growth left. And you know why we're so excited.
但是你可以这样做：拍一张你鞋子的照片，然后问：“我可以在哪里买到这双鞋？”或者拍一下作业，说：“我卡在了第二题。”再或者拍一张你的书架，说：“基于这些书，我还应该买哪些书？”现在人工智能可以帮助你解决这些问题。这只是一个例子，说明为什么这个领域还在快速增长，也说明了我们为什么如此兴奋。
Okay. So you're not seeing the death of search. And along the same lines, you guys recently launched AI mode, which I don't think enough people are talking about. I think you get there at Google.com slash AI. Is that the right URL? Okay. We've been playing with it as we were prepping for this conversation. It's really incredible. I asked it, what is the best newsletter on product and growth? And it's very smart. So Lenny's newsletter. So that's my e-vow. Well, it's fantastic. Okay. One of one perfect e-vow. It's perfect.
好的。所以你并不认为搜索引擎会消亡。同样地，你们最近推出了AI模式，但我觉得讨论它的人还不够多。我想可以在Google.com/AI找到它，对吗？好的。在准备这次谈话时，我们一直在尝试它。真的很棒。我问它，哪个是关于产品和增长的最佳新闻通讯？它非常聪明，推荐了Lenny的新闻通讯。这就是我的电子誓言。嗯，非常棒。完全完美的电子誓言。完美。
Also, just if you go to it, there's these recommendations for things to ask it that are just like, wait, how did you know I care about this stuff? So it's like, help me switch to product management, just like on the front page. I'm like, how? How did you know? And it tells you that it's based on your Google activity. Talk about just what people should know about AI mode, maybe what they don't really understand about the power of this thing.
另外，当你使用它时，会发现它会给出一些推荐问题，比如“帮我转到产品管理”之类的，让人不禁惊讶：你怎么知道我会对这些感兴趣？然后它会告诉你，这些推荐是基于你的 Google 活动记录。这让我们意识到，人们应该了解一些关于 AI 模式的事情，尤其是他们可能还没有完全认识到这项技术的强大之处。
I can tell you, there's kind of three big components to what we can think about AI search and kind of the next generation of search experiences. One is obviously AI overviews, which are the quick and fast AI you get at the top of the page. Many people have seen. And that's obviously been something growing very, very quickly. This is when you ask a natural question, you just put it into Google. You get this AI now. It's really helpful for people.
我可以告诉你，我们可以将下一代搜索体验的人工智能分成三个主要部分来思考。首先是AI概览，这是你在页面顶部看到的快速AI反馈，很多人已经见过了。这种技术正在迅速发展。当你在谷歌上输入一个自然语言问题时，你会得到AI的快速回答，这对人们非常有帮助。
The second is around multimodal. This is visual search and lens. That's the other big piece. You go to the camera in the Google app and that's seeing a bunch of growth. And then really with AI mode, it really brings it all together. It creates an end to end frontier search experience on state of the art models to really truly let you ask anything of Google search. You can go back and forth. You can have a conversation. And it taps into and is specially designed for search.
第二个方面是多模态，这是指视觉搜索和镜头。这个也是非常重要的一部分。在 Google 应用中，你可以使用相机功能，这方面正在快速增长。借助 AI 模式，它把所有功能整合在一起，提供了一种从头到尾的前沿搜索体验，基于最先进的模型，让你真正能够在 Google 搜索中问任何问题。你可以来回互动，可以进行对话，并且这种模式是专门为搜索而设计的。
So what does that mean? And one of the cool things that I think it does is it's able to understand all of this incredibly rich information. That's within Google. So there's 50 billion products in the Google shopping graph for existence. They're updated two billion times an hour by merchants with live prices. You have 250 million places in maps. You have all of the finance information. And then not to mention, you have the entire context of the web and how to connect to it so that you can get context but then go deeper.
这是什么意思呢？我认为其中一个很酷的地方在于它能够理解谷歌内部这些丰富的信息。仅在谷歌购物图谱中就有500亿种产品，这些产品每小时由商家以实时价格更新20亿次。此外，地图中有2.5亿个地点，还有所有的金融信息。更不用说整个网络的背景信息，以及如何连接到这些信息，使你不仅能获得背景知识，还能深入了解。
And you kind of like put all of that into this brain. That is effectively this way to talk to Google and get at this knowledge. And that's really what you can do now. And so you can ask anything on your mind. And it will use all of this information. It will hopefully give you super high quality and informed information as best as we can. And you can use it directly at this google.com slash AI. But it's also been integrated into our core experiences too. So we announce you can get to it really easily. If you actually can ask follow up questions of AI overviews, write into AI mode now. Same for the lens. That should take a picture. It takes you to AI modes. You can have this back. You can ask follow up questions and go there too.
你可以把所有这些信息放入这个“大脑”中。这个大脑实际上就是与你与谷歌交流和获取知识的途径。现在，你可以问任何你想知道的问题，它会利用所有这些信息，尽量为你提供优质且有见地的答案。你可以直接在 google.com/AI 使用它，同时，它也已经整合到了我们的一些核心体验中，所以我们宣布你可以非常方便地访问它。你现在可以在 AI 模式下提问后续问题。同样地，在使用相机镜头时拍摄一张图片，它会带你进入 AI 模式，你也可以在这里提出后续问题。
So it's increasingly integrated experience into the core part of the product. I imagine much of this is wait and see how people use it. But what's the vision of how all these things connect is the idea. Continue having this AI mode on the side. Yeah, I overuse it at the top. And then this multi model experience or their vision of somehow pushing these together even more over time. I think there's an opportunity for these to come closer together. I think that's what AI mode represents at least for the core AI experiences. But I think that of them is very complimentary to the core search product. So you should be able to not have to think about where you're asking a question ultimately.
所以，这种体验正越来越多地被整合到产品的核心部分。我想很多东西都在于等着看用户如何使用。但这些事情如何连接在一起的愿景是什么？是否继续在一旁保留这个 AI 模式？是的，我在顶部用了太多。然后是这种多模型体验，或者他们设想随着时间推移，这些东西会更加紧密结合。我认为有机会让这些更紧密地结合在一起。我认为这正是 AI 模式所代表的，至少对于核心 AI 体验来说是如此。但我认为这些对于核心搜索产品来说是非常互补的。所以最终，你不应该再需要考虑在哪里提问。
You just go to Google and today if you put in whatever you want, we're actually starting to use much of the power behind AI mode, write in AI overviews. So you can just ask really hard. You could put a five sentence question right into Google search. You can try it. And then it should trigger AI at the top. It's a preview and you can go deeper into AI mode and have this back and forth. So that's how these things connect. Same for your camera. So if you take a picture of something that what's this plan? Or how do I buy these shoes? It should take you to an AI little preview. And then if you go deeper, again, it's powered by AI mode. You can have that back and forth.
你只需到谷歌上搜索，现在如果你输入你想要的内容，我们实际上开始在很多地方使用AI模式的强大功能，编写AI概述。所以你可以提出非常困难的问题。你可以直接在谷歌搜索中输入一个五句话的问题，试试看。然后它应该在顶部触发AI，这是一个预览阶段，你可以深入进入AI模式，进行这种来回互动。这就是这些东西如何连接的。同样适用于你的相机。如果你拍下某物的照片，比如问“这是什么植物？”或“我怎么买到这些鞋子？”它会带你到一个AI的小预览，然后如果你深入一点，依然是由AI模式驱动的，你可以进行这种来回互动。
So you shouldn't have to think about that. It should feel like a consistent simple product experience ultimately. But obviously this is a new thing for us. And so we wanted to start it in a way that people could use and give us feedback. It's with something like a direct entry point like Google.com slash AI. I recently had a Brian Balfour in the podcast and he showed this quote that's really stuck with me that I think about as you talk about all this. I was by Alex Rampell. This idea that startups is a game of getting distribution before incumbents can innovate fast enough.
所以你不应该为此烦恼。最终，它应该是一种一致且简单的产品体验。但显然，这对我们来说是新鲜事物。因此，我们希望以一种人们可以使用并反馈的方式开始。就像一个直接的入口，比如 Google.com/AI。我最近在播客中采访了布莱恩·鲍尔弗，他分享了一个让我印象深刻的名言，是亚历克斯·兰佩尔说的。这句话的意思是，初创公司要在传统企业能够快速创新之前获得市场分布。
And it feels like you guys are finally there where like, oh, man, now here comes Google. I don't know if I have a question here, but it just feels like this is, there's been all this time for people to find distribution and now it's like, okay, now Google is coming. What we found is that people are asking these questions in Google. They're trying to get this out of Google. And so if you can just have an AI that's powerful enough to answer a really hard calculation, trying to figure out or like take a picture of like multiple choice homework question for a chemistry question, people are doing this.
感觉你们终于走到了这样一个阶段：哦，天哪，现在谷歌来了。我不知道我是不是有疑问，但感觉就像是，人们一直在寻找传播渠道，而现在就像是，好的，谷歌来了。我们发现人们在谷歌上提问，他们试图从谷歌中寻找答案。因此，如果你有一个足够强大的人工智能能回答很难的计算问题，或者拍下多项选择题的化学作业问题，人们就是这样在做。
And so now that you have this really sophisticated AI that's based on our frontier models, we can just handle increasingly look more and more stuff for people. And so hopefully that's like the more natural on ramp here. And then we're just going to make it easy enough for people to use because these are new products and people are used to using Google in a specific way. They type in keywords. We totally call it sometimes keyword ease, but you can actually use natural language in Google. That's the biggest shift we're seeing.
现在有了基于我们前沿模型的高级人工智能，我们可以处理越来越多的事情。希望这是一个更自然的切入点。我们的目标是让人们更容易使用这些新产品，因为人们习惯用一种特定的方式使用谷歌，他们输入关键词。有时候我们戏称这种方式为“关键词语言”，但实际上你可以在谷歌中使用自然语言。这是我们看到的最大变化。
People asking real long hard, complex questions because you just don't think I can go to Google and type in like what's a great place for a date night. I already went to these four restaurants. I'm looking for outdoor dining and my friend has this allergy. You could put that into Google. And I think that's the kind of thing that we're excited to continue to make easy for people. It's interesting. And we've come around to back in the day there was Ask Jeaves, which was this whole just ask a question as if you're asking a human and then it'll give you a really good answer.
人们提出又长又难又复杂的问题，因为他们不认为可以直接在谷歌上输入“约会之夜的好去处是什么”这样的问题。我已经去过这四家餐厅。我在寻找室外用餐的地方，而且我的朋友有过敏问题。你可以把这些信息输入谷歌。我认为我们很高兴能够让这种事情变得更加简单。这很有趣，我们回想，当年有一个叫Ask Jeeves的网站，它的理念就是让你像问真人一样提出问题，然后会给你一个很好的答案。
And then we moved into Google just no, no, just type the thing you want and figure out how Google likes it in our back to just ask your question and then I'll give you a really good answer. Yeah, Ask Jeaves was surprisingly prescient on that. They had something way before it's time that we haven't looked at it rallied around now. Oh, man. What's your take on this whole rise of AEO, which is this kind of this evolution of SEO? I'm guessing your answer is going to be just create awesome stuff and don't worry about it, but there's a whole skill of getting to show up in these answers, thoughts on what people should be thinking about here.
然后我们进入了谷歌时代，不用多想，只需输入你想要的内容，然后了解谷歌的喜好，回到只需提问，我就会给你一个很好的答案。是的，Ask Jeeves 在这方面意外地具有前瞻性。他们很早就做出了这样的功能，而我们现在才开始重视。哦，天啊。你对 AEO 这种 SEO 演变的新潮流有何看法？我猜你的回答可能是专注于创造精彩的内容，不用担心这个问题，但其实要能够在这些答案中显示出来，还有着一套技巧，你对人们应该关注什么有何想法？
Sure. I can give you a little bit of under the hood like how this stuff works because I do think that helps people understand what to do. But when our AI constructs a response, it's actually trying to, it does something called Query Fanout where the model uses Google Search as a tool to do other queries. So maybe you're asking about specific shoes. It'll add up and append all of these other queries and maybe dozens of queries and start searching basically in the background. And analysts make requests to their data kind of back ends.
当然，我可以稍微解释一下这背后的机制，因为我认为这能帮助大家理解该怎么做。当我们的AI生成回应时，它实际上在执行一种叫做分散查询（Query Fanout）的操作。在这个过程中，模型会利用谷歌搜索作为工具进行额外的查询。比如你问到某种特定的鞋子，AI会将这些查询累积并附加上更多的相关查询，可能会有几十个查询，然后在后台进行搜索。同时，分析师们会向他们的数据后端发送请求。
I think it needs real time information and we'll go do that. And so the end of the day, actually something's searching. It's not a person, but there's searches happening and then each search is paired with content. And so if for a given search, your web page is designed to be extremely helpful. And you can look up Google's human radar guidelines and read, it's a very long document that's been faultfully crafted for decades now around. What makes great information? The answer to something Google has studied more than anyone.
我认为它需要实时信息，我们将去做这件事。到最后，实际上是在进行搜索。并不是由人进行的搜索，但搜索正在进行中，每一项搜索都会匹配到相应的内容。如果在一次特定搜索中，你的网站页面被设计得非常有用，那么你可以查阅谷歌的人类评估指南。这是一份非常长的文件，经过多年的精心编写，探讨了什么是优秀的信息。谷歌对此的研究比任何人都深入。
And it's like, do you satisfy the user antenna what they're trying to get? Do you have sources? Do you cite your information? Like is it original? Or is it repeating things that have been repeated 500 times? And there's these best practices that I think still do largely apply because it's going to ultimately come down to an AI is doing research and finding information. And a lot of the core signals, is this a good piece of information for the question? They're still valid. They're also extremely valid and extremely useful.
这段话的意思是：你是否满足了用户的需求，他们想要获取的信息是什么？你有信息来源吗？你是否引用了你的信息？这些信息是原创的，还是只是重复了很多次的内容？有一些最佳实践，我认为这些实践仍然适用，因为最终AI会进行研究并寻找信息。很多核心的判断标准，比如这是否是一个好的信息来源来回答问题，依然有效。这些标准仍然非常有效并且非常有用。
And that will produce a response very more likely to show up in those experiences now. I think the only thing I would give advice to would be, think about what people are using AI for. I mentioned this as an expansionary moment. It seems to be that people are asking a lot more questions now, particularly around things like advice or how to or more complex needs versus maybe more simple things. And so if I were a creator, I would be thinking what kind of content is someone using AI for? And how could my content be the best for that given set of needs now?
这将产生一种更有可能在这些经验中出现的反应。 我认为我唯一会给出的建议是：思考人们为何使用人工智能。我提到了这是一个扩展的时刻。似乎人们现在提问的频率增加了，尤其是关于咨询建议、操作指导或更复杂的需求，而不是简单的问题。因此，如果我是一个内容创作者，我会思考人们使用人工智能是为了获取哪种内容，而我的内容如何能够最好地满足当前这些需求。
And I think that's a really tangible way of thinking about it. It's interesting your point about how it goes in searches. When you use it, it's like searching a thousand pages or something like that. Is that just a different core mechanic to how other popular chatbots work because the others don't go search a bunch of websites as you're asking? Yeah, this is something that we've done uniquely for our AI. It obviously has the ability to use parametric memory and thinking and reasoning and all the things a model does.
我觉得这是一个非常具体的思考方式。你提到搜索时的表现很有趣。当你使用它时，就像是在搜索上千个页面。这跟其他流行的聊天机器人运作方式有何不同呢？因为其他机器人不会在你提问时搜索大量网站。是的，这是我们为我们的人工智能独创的功能。显然，它具备使用参数记忆、思考和推理的能力，以及模型执行的所有其他操作。
But one of the things that makes it unique for designing it specifically for informational tasks, we wanted to be the best at informational needs. So Google is all about. And so how does it find information? How does it know if information is right? How does it check its work? These are all things that we built into the model. And so there is a unique access to Google. Google is obviously part of Google search. So it's Google search signals.
但是有一点使它独特，就是专门为处理信息性任务设计，我们希望在满足信息需求方面做到最好。这正是谷歌所关注的。那么，它如何找到信息呢？它如何判断信息是否正确？它如何检查自己的结果是否准确？这些都是我们在模型中加入的内容。因此，我们对谷歌有独特的访问权限。谷歌显然是谷歌搜索的一部分，所以它可以利用谷歌的搜索信号。
Everything from spam, like what's content that could be spam and you don't want to probably use it in a response. All the way to, this is like the most authoritative, helpful piece of information. We're going to link to it and we're going to explain, hey, according to this website, check out that information and then you're going to go, you know, probably go see that yourself. So that's how we've thought about designing this.
这段话的大意是：从垃圾信息开始，比如哪些内容可能是垃圾信息，因此你可能不想在回复中使用它。再到最权威、最有用的信息片段，我们会链接到这些内容，并解释说：“嘿，根据这个网站的信息，请查看这些内容。” 然后你可能会自己去看看。所以，这就是我们设计这个系统时的思考方式。
You've worked on a lot of AI products at this point. It wasn't, it's not just Google or Artifact, it Instagram, you did a lot of AI stuff. But something you've learned about building AI products that you find maybe people don't truly understand, maybe something that surprised you by building successful AI products. I think the most recent one, and this is true, something even within the last week or two, is that like, it's so obvious how human-like the interface is becoming with how you can communicate and steer AI.
到目前为止，你已经参与了很多人工智能产品的开发。不只是谷歌或Artifact，还有Instagram，你做了很多与AI相关的工作。但是在构建AI产品过程中，你发现了一些别人可能不太理解的东西，或者是让你感到惊讶的事情，这些都有助于你开发出成功的AI产品。我认为最近让我印象最深的一点是，人机交互界面变得越来越像人类交流的方式，通过沟通和引导AI，可以感受到这种趋势。这是我在过去一两周内才特别强烈感受到的。
I think it used to be even just months back that you had to do a lot of work to like get the AI to do the thing you're trying to get it to do. You had to do using cantations, you had to prompt in a really specific way, like people have all these hacks, like, hey, act like you're a coach and you do these things and you have to really push it or to use a tool. I am more on the technical side, you had to do post-training. You had to take this foundational model and you had to show it data, you had to train it and actually update its weights to do more sophisticated things because you tell it, hey, here's like documentation for an API, if you ever have a problem, you know, ping this API, here's the date, like as if it's like an engineer that you had that you could talk to, and it would have no idea what to do with that, or it would have some idea, I wouldn't really do it.
我认为就在几个月前，要让人工智能做你想让它做的事情，还需要花费很多功夫。当时你需要用一些特定的方式来提示，或者使用一些"咒语"式的方法。人们有各种小技巧，比如让AI扮演教练的角色，指引它做某些事情，你必须非常努力地推动它或者使用一些工具。就技术面来说，你需要进行后期训练。你需要将基础模型与数据一起训练，实际更新它的权重，以实现更复杂的功能。即使你告诉它，“这是一个API的文档，如果遇到问题，可以调用这个API”，就像你在和一个工程师交流一样，它可能完全不知道如何处理，或者只知道一点，但并不会真正去做。
But increasingly, you can just use language, like almost if you were to write up an order, you know, you could be like, wow, like, here's a, I'm a new startup, here's my data, internally, here are the APIs to it, here's the schema and URL, here's when to use it, by the way, make sure that if you get this kind of a question, you really make sure to get it right, and like that'll end up doing a lot in the model, like the models have been now encoded to be able to say, okay, I'm going to like use more reasoning or thinking budget for that kind of a question, or I'm going to use tools or code to code use code execution in order to connect to this API I'm told about. And that's a relatively new thing, so I think it's going to open up a lot of this democratization of accessing these models and building incredible things, because you don't even need to do a lot to get the most sophisticated outcomes increasingly, I don't think you need to do a lot of this heavy duty fine-tune.
随着技术的发展，你现在可以像写订单一样简单地使用语言。例如，你可以这样说：“我是一个新的创业公司，这是我的内部数据，这里是相关的API、数据结构和URL，以及这些资源的使用时机。此外，要确保在遇到某些问题时，能够准确回答。” 模型现在可以根据这些信息做出反应，比如它们会在处理这种问题时投入更多的思考或推理，或者使用工具和代码来连接到给定的API。这是一个相对较新的功能，我认为这将大大促进模型的普及，让更多人能够轻松地创建出色的项目。因为你越来越不需要做太多繁琐的调优工作，就能得到复杂的结果。
Makes me think about it, I have this recent guest, Ness Rien-Schengell on the podcast, she was a PM at Google, short, then Google Meet, she was at the light PM working on and making products more delightful, and she talked about the reason Google Meet did so well, and it's now feels like it's killing Zoom, is they compared the experience of Google Meet to a human meeting versus making it the best possible video conference, let's make this as good as a human experience, and that's interesting what you're talking about how that's almost the goal here with the AI is just make it feel like you're just talking to a person. Exactly. It might be obvious, but it's the good about that.
让我想到最近的一个嘉宾，Ness Rien-Schengell，她曾在谷歌担任产品经理，后来在Google Meet工作。她负责提升产品质量，让它们更加吸引人。她提到Google Meet取得成功的原因，现在似乎在超越Zoom，是因为他们将Google Meet的体验与人类的面对面会议进行比较，而不是单纯追求最好的视频会议效果。他们的目标是让视频会议的体验尽可能接近真实的人与人之间的交流。这让我觉得有趣的是，你说的AI的目标也是如此，就是让人感觉像是在和一个人在交谈。虽然这可能很明显，但这种目标确实有其积极的一面。
Okay, let me zoom out and talk about just, and let's talk about just broader lessons you've learned over the course of your career, you've built a lot of very successful products which I've shared in the intro at this point. Many, many not. Also, let me other side of this picture, we got the whole portfolio. Okay, perfect, we'll talk about some of that. So I asked you as we were getting ready for this conversation, what's one thing you wanted to get across in this conversation, what's something you think would be really helpful for product builders to hear to help them build more successful products, and you use this phrase, embodying relentless improvement. You just talk about that, what does that mean, why is this so important?
好的，让我从更宏观的角度来谈谈你在职业生涯中学到的更广泛的经验教训。你已经建立了许多非常成功的产品，这些我在介绍时提到了。当然，也有很多产品没有那么成功。我们来看一下整个产品组合，这样的背景下讨论会更全面。那么，我想问问，在我们准备这次谈话时，有什么是你特别想在这次交流中传达的信息？有什么对产品开发者来说特别有帮助，可以帮助他们打造更成功的产品？你提到了一个短语：体现不懈的改进。你可以谈谈这个吗？它是什么意思？为什么这么重要？
Of course, I mean, I think that you need to be the physical manifestation of two pieces of things. One is just relentlessness, like just complete effort that is always exerted in a direction of positive productivity. And in the second is make things better. You always make things better. You're never content. And I think this actually came out of a story, a little bit of a funny story where I was at Instagram at the time doing a big, you know, all team meeting on my first, and they had this icebreaker. It's like, what's one word to describe yourself? And so in the backstage area, I like texted my wife really quick, like, hey, just one word to describe me. First thing that comes to your mind, and she just wrote back dissatisfied. And I was kind of chuckling in the back room, because that's first of all kind of offended, because I was like, it's not like loving, caring, like, something good.
当然，我的意思是，我认为你需要成为两种事物的具象化。首先是坚持不懈，这意味着始终如一地在积极生产力的方向上付出全部努力。其次是不断改善，你总是让事情变得更好，永不满足。我想这是源于一个有趣的小故事。当时我在 Instagram 举办了一次大型全员会议，那是我第一次参加，他们有个破冰活动：用一个词来形容自己。所以在后台，我很快给我妻子发了短信：“用一个词来形容我，你脑海中想到的第一个词是什么？”她回复说：“不满足。”我在后台有点无奈地笑了，因为听到这个词，我首先觉得有点冒犯，因为我希望她说的是“有爱心、体贴”之类的优点。
And then she, and I saw like her little bubble thing, like, she's like, okay, there's more. And then she wrote me this like really thoughtful thing that was like, you know, it's not that you're just unhappy. Like, you want the world to be better. You're driven out of a deep desire. It's that you feel the sense of dissatisfaction with what the world gives you. You want to make it better. And you're pushed and motivated to do that. And I thought about that after, and it wasn't until we built a bunch of, you know, products, you know, some that didn't do well, some that have had a lot of really large success, now billions of people use them, where it felt like one of the big differences. Obviously, a lot of it is just the conditions of the product and the, you know, a little bit of luck here and there too.
然后她，我看到她的小气泡显示，她好像在打字。然后她给我写了一段很贴心的话，大意是：并不是说你只是感到不快乐，而是你希望世界变得更好。你的动力来自于一种强烈的愿望，因为你对现状感到不满。你想要改善它，并受到推动去实现这个目标。我在之后想了很多，直到我们开发出一系列产品，其中有些不太成功，而有些则取得了巨大的成功，现在有数十亿人使用。这时候我意识到其中一个重大差别。显然，很多成功与产品的条件有关，也有一点运气的成分。
But for the things that went well, there was always this spirit of just, we're going to get it eventually if we just make two more moves to make it, to make it better. And then eventually, as I talked about before, I really learned a conversation, you get this tipping point where it just kind of tips over into being net useful to people because of just that amount of compounding effort that you put into something because you're just always so, you're the harshest critic and the most dissatisfied person in the room about your own work, basically. And I think that's really meaningful.
对于那些进展顺利的事情，我们总是抱有这样的精神：只要再努力改进两步，总能取得成功。我之前提到过，我学到了一个道理，就是当你不断投入心血时，会有一个临界点，事情会因为你的努力和坚持，突然变得对人们有实质性的帮助。这种转变源于你对自己的作品始终保持苛刻的态度和不满足感。我认为这种精神非常有意义。
And there's this other, other incredible story that Tony Fidel told on a TED Talk like 10 years ago. You can look it up. I think it's something around think younger as a title. And he talks about what it means that as we grow up in age and become grown-ups, I have two little kids, so that's something I think about a lot. We habituate to everything. Like we accept and we tolerate what the world gives us everywhere. And we just go, ah, that kind of sucks. Oh, well, we shrug our shoulders and we move on. But if you don't do that, you ask, why? Like this sucks. Why am I tolerating this? And how do I make it better?
大约十年前，Tony Fidel 在一次 TED 演讲中讲述了另一个令人难以置信的故事。你可以去搜索一下，我记得它的标题大概是“思考年轻”。他谈论了随着我们年龄增长和成为成年人，这意味着什么。我有两个小孩，所以我经常考虑这个问题。我们习惯于所有事情，接受并忍受世界给予我们的一切，然后说：“啊，这有点糟糕。”哦，好吧，我们耸耸肩，然后继续前进。但如果你不这样做，而是问：“为什么？这很糟糕。我为什么要忍受这个？我该如何改善它？”
You know, this incredible story about going grocery shopping. And he goes on for like 10 minutes about the story almost. It felt like where he talks about getting a piece of fruit, like a plum or a peach, and how it has that sticker on it. You know, and it's got that sticker. And who put that sticker there? And then how you, when you get home, you take your fruit out of your bag, you're ready to eat it. You're all excited. You stick your thumb under the sticker. It punctures the flesh. He goes into just incredible detail about how it punctures the flesh of the fruit. The sticker comes off. Now the fruit's bleeding.
你知道吗，这个关于去买菜的故事真的太有趣了。他足足讲了差不多十分钟，内容就是他买水果的时候，像李子或者桃子，上面贴着一个贴纸。你知道吗，就是那个贴纸。是谁把贴纸贴上去的呢？然后他又讲到，当你回到家，把水果从袋子里拿出来，准备吃的时候，你非常兴奋，就用拇指把贴纸撕下来。结果你的拇指戳破了水果的果肉。他详细描述了这种戳破水果果肉的过程。贴纸被撕下来了，现在水果就像“流血”了一样。
Then you like flick the sticker. The sticker like misses the garbage. You like bend over and pick it up. You like put the sticker back in and it's like, wow, like that is embodying this mentality, right? Like just why is this here? How can this be better? And I think the best product people, the best thinkers in the space, that's how they think in my opinion. I imagine there are many examples of you doing this in the many products you've worked on. Is there one that comes to mind as a good example of this in action of this actually working really well and delivering something really huge?
然后你就像用手指弹了一下贴纸，结果贴纸没扔进垃圾桶。于是你弯腰把它捡起来，然后又把贴纸扔回去，这就让人觉得，这正体现了一种思维方式，对吧？就是“为什么这样？怎么能做得更好？”我认为，最优秀的产品人和思想者就是这样思考问题的。我想，在你参与过的众多产品中，肯定有很多这样的例子。有没有一个特别好的例子能说明这种思维方式如何真正有效运作，并且带来了巨大成就呢？
I mean, honestly, like a big thing is working on AI mode. Like I think a lot of it was, you know, we saw in AI overviews that people were trying to ask harder questions and we weren't able to answer a bunch of them or AI overviews just didn't show up. And so, you know, a bunch of us sat around and we're like, why can't you just do this for everything? Like, why can't we use, you know, instead of saying, oh, we don't need to solve for that. Or, you know, that's not something that's like in the most addressable next thing. It's like, we actually saw people in the query stream putting the words AI at the end of their queries because they're trying to like get the AI to like do the thing.
我的意思是，坦白说，一个重要的事情就是改进AI模式。我觉得很大程度上是因为我们在AI概览中发现，人们开始提出更复杂的问题，而我们无法回答其中很多问题，或者AI概览根本没有出现。因此，我们中有一群人坐下来想，为什么不能为所有问题提供这个功能呢？为什么我们不能这样做，而不是说，“哦，我们不需要解决这个”，或者说，“这不是下一个最急需解决的事”？实际上，我们看到在人们的查询中，他们在末尾加上了“AI”这个词，因为他们试图让AI完成他们想要的任务。
And so we would look at that and just like, this is ridiculous. We need to build something here. And that was a big motive. That was one of the big motivations was actually identifying that like user problem being very disgruntled on behalf of the user. Like I'm, we're just failing the user every day. We are not helping them actually get their thing and like kind of better understood. And we're going to go build a whole thing because of it because that's hard to do by the way to build all of that. It just was so obvious that that's what we needed to do.
我们看到这种情况时，感觉非常荒谬，意识到我们必须在这里做些什么。这成了一个重要的动机之一，我们发现这个用户问题让用户非常不满。我们每天都在辜负用户，并没有真正帮助他们更好地理解和解决他们的问题。正因为如此，我们决定要去构建一个完整的解决方案。虽然这非常困难，但我们很清楚这是我们必须去做的事情。
There's kind of two buckets of people, let's say hypothetically. One bucket is just make things better, make amazing experiences. You're going to do great. There's another bucket that's like drive metrics, drive goals, hit our KPIs. I know what you're not saying is just work like work on things making, just make things better relentlessly, make things better. How do you just think about, I guess, that overlap of, okay, makes things better. But also here's what we really, here's the strategy, here's the vision. How do you think that's going to be?
可以这样翻译成中文，让表达更加容易理解：
假设有两类人。第一类人专注于改善和创造出色的体验，他们可能会做得很出色。第二类人注重推动指标和目标，努力实现我们的关键绩效指标（KPIs）。我知道你并不是在说只是一味地努力工作，不断改进事物。你要如何看待两者的重叠部分呢？也就是说，一方面要改善事物，另一方面又要明确我们的策略和愿景。你觉得应该如何平衡这两者？
Yeah, I don't think it's an or like, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think they have to be like intersected because basically the way to think about it is, you actually start with a problem or the inverse of that, which is a vision, but they're connected. It's like, people, most great companies, most great products come out of a problem. But out of the problem becomes like, here's a better way. What if instead of this crappy thing or way of living or thing that we all tolerate and accept, some entrepreneur comes up and says, what if we did the other thing? And then it comes out of this dissatisfaction and this sense of better that you need to make things better.
是的，我不认为这是一个非此即彼的问题。我认为，它们必须相互交融。基本上，理解这一点的方式是，你实际上从一个问题开始，或者是从它的反面出发，也就是一个愿景，但它们是相连的。比如说，大多数伟大的公司和产品都来源于一个问题。但从这个问题中，你会想到一个更好的解决方案。假如有一天，有人不再接受这个糟糕的方式或生活状态，而是说，为什么我们不能尝试另一种方式呢？正是这种不满和改善的愿望推动着事情变得更好。
But then you're going to build. At the end of the day, you need your instrumentation to know if you're on the right track. And that's where you bring tools like, okay, you build your first version of the product, do people like it? It's like, and then each product goes through its journey. So the way you've been understanding people like it is you screw Nyes typically, you talk to people. But you also add some analytical tools there. You might look at something like a jaker. So this is the retention, the percentage of people still using the product, day seven, day 30, day 90, and does it flatten? Or do people just drip out of there?
然后你就会开始进行开发。归根结底，你需要借助工具和数据来判断自己是否在正确的道路上。这时候，你就可以使用一些工具，比如，你开发了产品的第一个版本，人们喜欢吗？就像这样，每个产品都有自己的发展历程。你通常通过与人交谈来了解人们是否喜欢它。但你也需要加入一些分析工具。比如，你可以查看类似于用户留存率的数据，即在第7天、第30天、第90天仍在使用产品的用户百分比，以及该比率是趋于稳定还是用户流失。
Like over time it's just not exciting people and that would go to zero. If on a long enough timeline, no one's going to use it. You don't get past that, you're toast, right? Then, okay, some people are doing it. Okay, great. We need more people to do it and it needs to be good enough that people talk about it and then it grows. And so that's another gate. And then there's another one which is like, well, how big can this get? Actually, is it a small thing? Is it an medium thing? And I think most companies like you have like an aspiration of being big, but you can't start big. Everyone's got to go through that journey.
随着时间的推移，如果某件事情没有让人感到兴奋，它可能就会归零。如果在足够长的时间线上，没有人会去使用它。那么，你就无法突破这一点，你就完蛋了，对吧？然后，如果有些人在使用它，那很好。但是，我们需要更多的人来使用它，并要让它好到人们愿意谈论它，然后它才能发展壮大。这是另一个门槛。接下来，还有一个问题是：它能发展到多大？它是小规模的呢，还是中等规模的？我认为，大多数公司都希望能够做大，但你不能一开始就做大。每个人都必须经历那个成长的旅程。
No product has started big. Even ones that get big really quickly, even like a week quickly, they had something. And even internally they started small, they started small with a hundred two hundred people. And so you have to be metrics focused, I think, in order to know if you're doing the right thing. And then the other thing is on the other side of the spectrum, you're running a big thing. And there you need metrics to be your guide. Like if your product, let's say, okay, let's say our core metrics down, 5% this week. It's like, well, what's going on? And so you need to be really close to root cause analysis there and say, well, it actually turns out that it's an issue.
没有产品是一开始就做大的。即使是那些发展得很快的产品，甚至在一周内迅速壮大的产品，也都是从小规模起步的，可能最初只有一两百个用户。因此，你必须关注数据分析，我认为这样才能知道自己是否在做正确的事情。另一方面，当你的业务已经发展很大时，你也需要依靠数据指导。比如说，如果你产品的核心数据这周下降了5%，那么就要弄清楚发生了什么问题。你需要进行深入的原因分析，才能找到真正的问题所在。
Is it in a region? Is it on a device? Is it in a demographic? Is it in a use case? Where is my problem lie? And then when you get to it, you understand the problem. And then this improvement thing comes back or it's like, okay, I'm going to fix that thing. What's the treatment for that disease? And then you get back to growth again. And so you kind of need this and you always are looking at what's the system that I'm working on and what are my instruments? I'm a pilot to know if this thing is going and flying correctly.
它是在某个地区吗？是在某个设备上吗？是在某个人群中吗？还是在某个使用场景中？我到底的问题出在哪里？当你找到问题所在，就能理解问题。然后，你会想要去改善或者修复它，就像是在问“这种病该怎么治疗？”解决后，你又会回到增长的轨道。因此，你需要一直关注自己所操作的系统以及使用的工具。就像飞行员一样，要确保一切是否正常运作和飞行。
But then it doesn't tell you exactly what to do. You have to thank yourself how to make it better. I make it to show you a little bit of the way. And let me just give a masterclass on just how to prioritize and think what's working. I want to go on a quick tangent. Speaking of products that have done really well and become really big stories, you build and launch stories at Instagram. It's quite an infamous product launch back in the day. It's quite controversial because it basically took what Snapchat was doing really well.
但这并不会直接告诉你该怎么做。你需要自己想办法改进。我做这个是想给你提供一点指导。让我来给你上一堂关于如何优先考虑和思考什么是有效的的大师课。我想稍微岔开一点话题。谈到那些非常成功并引起广泛关注的产品，Instagram 的 Stories 就是这样的例子。这是当年一个非常有名的产品发布，之所以颇具争议，是因为它基本上借鉴了 Snapchat 原本做得很好的功能。
And then like, hey, let's bring it to Instagram. And it was not great for Snapchat. Now that it was so long ago and just so far in the past, I'm so curious just to hear about that time reflecting on just that decision. What you guys talked about, how you decided to go ahead with that and anything just I don't know, you think about looking back at that. I think there's a couple of really important lessons from that launch. And I mean, we went on afterwards to launch Reol's a bunch of updates to direct messaging with Feet Ranking.
然后就像，“嘿，我们把它带到Instagram上吧。” 对Snapchat来说，这可不是好事。 现在这个事情发生在很久以前，时间已经过去了那么久，我真的很想知道当时的情况，反思一下那个决定。你们讨论了些什么，如何决定推进这个计划，以及回顾过去时你有何感想。我认为从那次发布中可以学到几个非常重要的教训。之后，我们继续推出了Reels以及大量针对消息系统和动态排名的更新。
I mean, there was this huge era there when I was there between 2016 and 2021 or so where just so many products got built. And I think an interesting lesson in all of those and particularly in stories was you have to really understand why someone uses your product and know when something is actually an existential question because there's just a better format or a different way of doing something that has worked and works and you need to figure out what that might mean for you. Because not every great thing is going to be invented by you. But I think that a lot of these things are, you know, the relic that they can become formats that you can make your own and you need to learn from the world and what's happening out there in order for your product to always give the best thing to its users.
在2016到2021年之间，我所在的那个时期，很多产品被开发出来。这段经历给我们上的一个有趣的课，尤其是在“故事”方面，就是你必须真正理解用户使用你产品的原因，并明确识别哪些问题是真正的生死存亡之问，因为可能有更好的形式或不同的方法已被证明成功。而你需要弄清楚这对你意味着什么。并不是所有伟大的东西都是由你发明的。但很多时候，事物会变成一种格式，你可以将其改造成自家的风格。因此，你需要从外界及其变化中学习，才能确保你的产品始终为用户提供最佳体验。
And so for stories, you know, we looked at Instagram, like what's the point of Instagram? It is sharing your life and connecting with people ultimately. And if there's a way to do that, that, you know, lowers the pressure because it doesn't have likes or it's just a femoral format and it's optimized well for mobile because it's this full screen experience. Like it's a really great format and kudos to Snapchat for inventing it. You know, we didn't think of that as like a deterrent that we had to go make like, you know, Instagram, photo, clock. And actually there were early versions of this idea where you try to take the core Instagram feed and make it a femoral. And whenever you try to mix a core product that's very cemented in someone's mind and physically looks a specific way and you're trying to make contort it to do something new. It's usually a bad recipe.
这个故事是这样的：我们研究了Instagram，想了解它的意义。Instagram的核心是分享你的生活，与人们连接。如果有一种方式能降低压力，比如不用点赞，或者采用一种短暂的格式，并且为移动设备进行了优化，比如全屏体验，那就是一种非常好的格式。而值得赞扬的是，这种格式是由Snapchat发明的。我们并不是将其视为一个阻碍，觉得必须去创造一个类似Instagram的东西。实际上，在这个想法的早期版本中，我们曾试图将Instagram的主要功能变得短暂化。但通常来说，当你试图将一个人们心中固有的核心产品改变成新的形式时，结果往往不太理想。
And so we knew we needed to something new and then it was so clearly was critical to the core essence of what the product could do. It could fit in naturally. But the question was how do you make it our own and how do we build on this? And so if you think there were a bunch of things that we did that made it Instagram. And so for example, it had different creative tools and it had things like neon drawing and these like really sophisticated filters that people loved. You know, we also looked at this talk about being disassified. Like people took a lot of times they would they want their main camera to take a picture of something and then they want to upload it to Instagram because they want to save it and they want to be in a very high quality high resolution photo because it's a memory.
于是我们意识到需要做一些新的尝试，而这些尝试又显然对产品的核心功能至关重要。这个新功能能够自然而然地融入产品中。但问题在于如何使其成为我们的特色，并在此基础上进行拓展。举个例子，我们做了很多事情让它成为Instagram，比如添加了不同的创意工具，例如霓虹画笔和一些备受欢迎的复杂滤镜。同时，我们也注意到大家对拍摄功能的期望。很多人希望用自己的主摄像头拍摄高质量、高分辨率的照片，然后上传到Instagram，因为他们想保存这些高质量的回忆。
And Snapchat at the time didn't allow you to upload photos. It was like you have to use a snap camera. And so we made a bunch of decisions like that where while you just let people upload their camera photo, like why, like this is the back to the dissatisfied point, like that's frustrating. You know, or there's another example where you couldn't pause if you like we're consuming a story, you couldn't pause it. It just would like go through and be done because it was like this ephemeral thing and you wanted to create safety. You'd be like, why can't you just pause? Like it goes by too fast. So we added this pause. It's such a small thing, but you put your finger down to pause the story now. And so there were a whole set of those things that were shipped that made stories feel Instagram was like you just had some other thing.
当时的 Snapchat 不允许用户上传照片。使用 Snapchat 时，你必须使用它自己的拍照功能。我们在设计产品时做了一些这样的决定，而不是让用户直接上传手机里的照片，这让人感到不满，甚至有点沮丧。另外，还有一个例子就是，当你在观看故事（Story）时，不能暂停，它会自动播放直到结束，因为我们希望营造一种短暂、即时的感觉，并保证某种安全性。你可能会想：“为什么不能暂停这个故事呢？它播放得太快了。”于是，我们添加了暂停功能。虽然这个改动很小，但现在你可以通过按住屏幕来暂停故事。有很多这样的改进，最终让 Instagram 的 Stories 体验与众不同。
And then it turns out that worked incredibly well. And so much to the fact that someone on the team mentioned that they always felt like at the time, they didn't realize it, but it was almost like it was missing the story size, the holes at the top of the page. And it like completed the product in some weird way for them. And so that was I think an important lesson. Instagram definitely got a lot of hate for that moment, for a lot of founders, just like hey, you guys just stole this idea and that sucks. How did you guys just deal with that internally? It was just this is, you know, we got to do this. We got to focus on our shareholders and go this thing. That's how it goes sometimes.
然后结果证明这种做法效果非常好。以至于团队中的某个人提到，他们一直觉得在当时没有意识到，但就像是页面顶部缺少的故事尺寸和空白得到了填补。从某种奇怪的方式上来说，这让产品在他们心中变得完整了。我认为这是一个重要的教训。Instagram在那个时候确实遭到了很多批评，很多创始人觉得：“你们就是在抄袭这个创意，真让人失望。”你们内部是怎么处理这种情况的呢？就是觉得这是我们必须做的，我们必须关注股东利益，继续推动这个项目。有时候事情就是这样的。
I mean, I think it's more they were focused on our people, our users and the people who are loving Instagram. And it's denying them the opportunity to have an easy way to just share a photo and like have the thing go away. You know, I mean, that's ultimately we were trying to add at the end of the day. That is a format that people adopt in the same way that think about feeds. You know, I think we talked about this at the time too when we shipped it. Like, you know, Facebook probably created the modern feed, but there's a feed for every single product, right? And there's a LinkedIn feed and there's a there's a feed for door dash. You know, it's it's not like like these things become core primitives quickly and formats.
我的意思是，我认为他们更关注的是我们的用户和喜欢Instagram的人。他们没有机会通过一种简单的方式分享照片，然后这些内容会消失。最终，我们想要添加的就是这样的功能。这种格式就像供稿一样被人们接受。我们发布这个功能的时候也讨论过，比如，Facebook可能创造了现代化的供稿模式，但现在每个产品都有一个供稿，比如LinkedIn的供稿，还有DoorDash的供稿。这些东西很快就成为了核心的基本形式和格式。
And then at the end of the day, you're kind of just robbing your user base of the opportunity to have a better product if you're not making the best possible product for your use cases. And for Instagram is used differently. Like people use Instagram differently than... they use other products. And it turns out that there were these experiences in WhatsApp and in Messenger and in many other social products over time. And they're all were used differently actually, which is which is fascinating.
最终，如果你没有为你的使用场景打造最佳产品，那么你实质上是在剥夺用户获得更好产品的机会。而对于Instagram，人们使用它的方式与使用其他产品的方式不同。事实证明，WhatsApp、Messenger以及许多其他社交产品在不同的时间段内也有不同的使用体验。这种差异化的使用方式确实很有趣。
So something else I want to talk about is you you came into two products that were already doing really well. Instagram and Google. And on the Instagram side, transformative growth and improvement, Google is it's happening where in the middle of the improvement and growth here, you're driving. Not a lot of people get to do this where they go into an existing product and make it grow significantly. A lot of people want to do this. They have a product that's been around for a long time.
我想谈论的另一件事情是，你进入了两个已经表现非常好的产品：Instagram和Google。在Instagram方面，你实现了转型性的增长和改进；在Google方面，你正处于带动改进和增长的过程中。很少有人有机会在进入一个已有的产品后还能推动其显著增长。很多人都希望能够做到这一点，特别是对于那些已经存在很长时间的产品。
Hey, how do we make this a grow and be more successful? Is there anything specifically that you've learned about just coming into an existing product, figuring out where the big opportunities are and then just like hockey sticking growth? Because this is what everyone wants to do. There's a couple of lessons here. And I think by the way, the first lesson is to be humble always because it's extremely incredible your work on products that have such impact on people. And I view product like golf. Like you're always one stroke away from shanking.
嘿，我们怎样才能让它成长并取得更大的成功？你有没有什么特别的经验是关于如何进入一个现有产品，找出其中的大机会，然后实现快速增长的？因为这是每个人都想要做到的事情。这里有几个经验教训。顺便说一下，我认为第一个经验就是始终保持谦逊，因为你在对人们有巨大影响的产品上工作是非常了不起的。我把产品比作高尔夫球，你总是离打歪一杆很接近。
And as soon as you think you're good, you're not. You don't know anything. The world changes quickly. You have to always be a servant to your user base and the people that are out there and learn from them. So the first thing I always do and think about is you get in touch in terms of why are people using this product and where are the areas of growth? And so usually even in a big product or a mature in a complex system, there's a part of it that's growing, there's part of it that's mature.
一旦你认为自己已经很优秀了，其实未必如此。你对什么都一无所知，因为世界变化得很快。你必须始终为你的用户群体和外界的人服务，并向他们学习。因此，我首先要做和考虑的是，了解人们为什么使用这个产品，以及哪些领域有增长的机会。通常，即便是一个大型或成熟的复杂系统，也会有一些部分在增长，而另一些部分已经成熟。
And there could be a part of it that's declining or isn't growing as much. And I certainly, in Instagram, there's been a big shift over the years of sharing into public, very large broadcast posts and feed into these more lightweight formats, like stories and DM, actually private sharing as well. And so you have to observe that because every month, every year, the world changes. People's needs change. And so first thing you do is you kind of get a sense of what do people want out of this product?
有一部分可能正在衰退或增长不如预期。在Instagram上，多年来的分享方式已经发生了很大变化，从公开的大范围浏览的帖子和动态转向了一些更轻便的形式，比如“故事”和私信等私密分享。因此，我们必须关注这些变化，因为每个月、每年世界都在变化，人们的需求也在变化。首先要做的是了解人们希望从这个产品中获得什么。
What's its true essence? I think a lot about this job is to be done framework, which is one of the things that I'm a big fan of and Clayton Christensen's book on competing against luck is one of my favorite books on this topic where you have to really be a student of causation. Why is someone using this product? What are they doing with it? And what are they trying to get done with it? And that usually leads you to kind of bigger, next-stage ideas.
它的真正本质是什么？我经常思考“待完成的任务”这个框架，这也是我非常喜欢的一个概念。克莱顿·克里斯滕森的《与运气竞争》是我在这个主题上最喜欢的书之一。在这本书中，你需要真正研究因果关系：为什么有人在使用这个产品？他们在用这个产品做什么？他们希望通过它完成什么任务？这通常会引导你思考出更大、更进一步的想法。
And it removes this belief that you need to solve the problem with the current tools. So in the Instagram version, it was like you have to make a square photo, do more for people. That would be like how you increment the product. Or in Google's example, there's something very specific with the core search experience that needs to change. It's like a subtle tweak. You have to kind of think, well, what's the big thing so much? I'm trying to ask a really hard question out of Google.
这句话的意思是说，这段话提到了一种观念的转变，即我们不一定需要用现有的工具来解决问题。在提到Instagram的版本时，举例表明原来可能需要制作正方形的照片，才能为用户提供更多功能，这是一种逐步改进产品的方法。而在提到谷歌的例子时，则表示核心搜索体验中有某些具体的地方需要改变，这可能是一个微妙的调整。需要去思考的是，真正重要的问题是什么？作者试图向谷歌提出一个非常困难的问题。
What's the best way to do that for them? And so it makes you think more first principle. And that's the first basis of this. And then once from first principles, you're like, oh, this newer thing. It could be a shift. It could be a new, in many ways, the AI version of Google and stories and reals. They're all kind of similar in that they're new formats in the world that people are expecting and wanting more of.
将这段话翻译成中文，并尽量使其易于理解：
“对他们来说，最好的做法是什么？这让你开始从基本原理思考。这是最基本的层面。一旦你从基本原理出发，就会发现一些新的东西。这可能是一种转变。在许多方面，它可能是AI版本的谷歌、故事和短视频。它们都是类似的，因为它们是世界上的新形式，人们期待并希望看到更多这样的内容。”
And by adding them, it becomes complimentary, not replacement. And in both cases, stories didn't replace Instagram. It became, it expanded in the same way we're seeing for AI. And so what's interesting is, then you think, well, how do I bring that into my world? I have this big, mature product. And the best way I've seen is by making it complimentary, having it be a core part of the experience, but clearly defined as a distinctive thing that has its own attributes associated with it.
通过引入这些内容，它变成了一种补充，而不是替代。在这两种情况下，故事功能并没有取代 Instagram，而是扩展了它，就像我们现在看到的人工智能一样。因此，有趣的是，你可以考虑如何将这种模式引入到自己的世界中。如果你有一个成熟的大型产品，最好的方法就是让这种新加入的功能成为互补的一部分，成为体验中的核心元素，但同时明确界定它的独特特性和属性。
People think spatially. So if you have a feed and you have holes with pictures, they expect those holes to do things. And so if you make one of those holes with a little clock and that one goes away the next day or you can't like it or it operates differently, then the other parts of your feed, it's going to be super confusing for people. It sucks. And so you have to add product carefully. But it needs to feel coherent but different.
人们倾向于用空间思维方式思考。因此，如果你有一个信息流，上面有带图片的空白区域，大家就会期望这些空白区域能发挥作用。所以，如果你在其中一个空白区域放了一个小钟，而这个钟第二天消失了，或者无法点赞，或其运作方式与信息流中其他部分不同，就会让人感到非常困惑。这很糟糕。因此，在添加产品时需要慎重，既要保持一致性，也要有差异化。
So stories, it has similar aesthetic. It obviously uses your camera roll in the same way. It works so you can share it in DM. It works in the system. But it has a different primitive. In the same way Google AI. It's a full-page experience that you can pop out now. You can have follow-up conversation with it. People have a set of expectations you need to snap to for those use cases. And then you are constantly learning how to best make these new products work within your world. And you never just want to snap in something that's working. You have to make it work for your users, your expectations, and what people are trying to do with your product.
故事功能，它有类似的美学设计。显然，它以相同的方式使用你的相册。它可以让你把内容分享在私信中，并在系统中正常运作。但它有不同的基础概念。就像谷歌的人工智能一样，它是一种全屏体验，现在你可以跳出来进行后续对话。用户对这些用例有一套预期，而你需要满足这种预期。你需要不断学习如何让这些新产品在你的应用中更好地发挥作用。而且你绝不能只是简单地整合现有的成功功能，你必须根据用户的需求、预期以及他们想利用你的产品做什么来进行优化。
It's actually one of the things that see people fail on the most is they assume something working for one system will work in your world. But someone else's system is on totally, like the types of users they have, with the consumer expectation of that product, it's totally different set of expectations. So you have to kind of respect that and say, well, can we learn from that and bring in here? I guess you were to talk about the kind of the method that I've seen now twice, I guess. It's kind of how these products have developed. I love this topic. It makes me think about just as balanced.
实际上，这是我看到人们失败最多的地方之一：他们总是假设某个系统的成功经验可以直接应用到自己的环境中。然而，别人的系统可能在用户类型和消费者对产品的期望上与自己完全不同。因此，你需要尊重这些不同之处，思考是否可以从中学习并应用到自己的领域上。我想你是在谈论我已经两次看到的方法。这就是这些产品的发展过程。我非常喜欢这个话题，因为它让我想到平衡的重要性。
People always try to find between optimizing something they've already got versus trying to take a big bet on something. And you've had so many examples where you've taken a big bet on something totally new and it's worked out incredibly well. You have kind of just a heuristic and how you structure teams and prioritize across. Okay, we have all amazing Google's or experience today. What percentage of resources go into improving that versus trying something totally new? That's one where I actually do feel like the more analytical, systematic thinking helps a lot because you're trying to produce value in the world.
人们总是努力在优化现有的东西与尝试下大赌注之间找到平衡。你有很多例子表明你在全新事物上大赌了一把并且取得了惊人的成功。你会有一些方法来构建团队和确定优先级。我们每天都在享受谷歌带来的惊艳体验。那么，我们应该把多少资源投入到改进现有产品上，多少资源投入到尝试全新的东西上？在这个问题上，我确实认为通过更有分析性和系统化的思考会有很大帮助，因为我们在努力为世界创造价值。
You want to quantify it some way. And so if you're seeing this growth curve and you're trying to understand, wow, people are using it more and more to like in this product. And when products are young, they grow. And then eventually things mature. And you can break out product suites and different features of products all along the same way, certain features that are going fast, other features that are not. And you get to these points of just diminishing marginal return in every system where it feels like you could put 50 people on this project.
你希望用某种方式对其进行量化。所以，如果你看到这种增长曲线，并试图理解，哇，人们越来越多地使用并喜欢这个产品。而当产品处于初期阶段时，它们会快速增长，最终会成熟。你可以在整个过程中区分出产品组合和不同的产品功能，某些功能发展很快，而其他功能则不然。并且，你会遇到这样一个系统的边际收益递减点，即使你往这个项目上投入50个人，也好像不会再有太大提升。
Like it's just not going to dramatically move the needle. And so part of it is this bottoms up thing with your own team being really thoughtful about what is the expected value of that investment and knowing when it's starting to approach zero like diminishing marginal return. And then when that happens, these are these moments that usually coincide with something fundamental changing. Either people's expectations externally, market saturation, there's something happening where you need to adjust.
这不会产生显著的推进效果。因此，其中一部分是你的团队需要从下往上仔细考虑这项投资的预期价值，并识别何时其效益开始接近于零，例如边际效益递减。当这种情况发生时，通常是因为某些基本因素发生了变化，比如人们的外部期望、市场饱和度等，这时你就需要进行调整。
And you then find your next growth driver or set of drivers. And that's where you need to go more for principles and try these new things more. And then when you land a new thing, that creates this new little growth engine. And then you put people on it and you optimize it because you get, you get big, like each change is like 10% win, 20% win, 4% win. And it's clearly like still has so much value and headroom and to make it better for people.
然后，你会找到下一个增长的驱动力或一组驱动力。这时候，你需要更多地依靠原则，去尝试这些新事物。当你找到一个新的切入点时，它将成为一个新的小型增长引擎。接下来，你需要投入人力来对其进行优化，因为每一个改变都可能带来10%、20%甚至4%的增长。显然，这个过程仍然具有巨大的价值和提升空间，可以让它变得更好。
And you can see that in the data. And so it does become, again, I talk about this instrumentation. It becomes your guide for knowing if you're making good calls. Otherwise if you don't know where you're headed and you don't have a goal of where you're trying to do more quantitatively, it's really hard to know if the thing you're doing is mattering to anyone because you'll just, I mean, they can make the product better, but like they want to use it as they want care or we just congratulating ourselves.
你可以从数据中看到这一点。这就像一个仪表，指导你判断做出的决定是否正确。如果你不知道自己要去哪里，也没有明确的量化目标，就很难判断你所做的事情是否对别人有意义。即使产品有所改进，但如果用户不在意或者不用，那就只是我们自我满足而已。
Like ultimately you want to have impact on people and that's what matters. So it's essentially tracking S curves on every product and understanding if you're in the plateau. And if it's time to invest heavily somewhere else. Yes. This episode is brought to you by Orkis, the company behind open source conductor, the Orkis station platform, powering modern enterprise apps and agentic workflows.
最终，你希望能对人们产生影响，这才是最重要的。因此，要对每个产品的S曲线进行跟踪，并了解是否已经进入平台期，以及是否是时候在其他地方投入更多精力。是的。本期节目由Orkis公司赞助，该公司开发了开源的Conductor和Orkis Station平台，为现代企业应用和智能工作流提供支持。
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Maybe it would be helpful to talk about the journey of AI mode, just like how it emerged in the steps that you took to now. It's just such a big part of the Google search experience. When did this start? How did you decide this is birth betting on? And then what kind of the steps to get it further and further rolled out? I think it probably started earlier on with AI overviews, actually, which was the first way we brought kind of generative AI to search. And in that world, we noticed that people were asking these questions.
也许讨论一下人工智能模式的发展历程会很有帮助，就像你为了达到现在的状态所走过的每一步。这在谷歌搜索体验中占据了非常重要的部分。这是何时开始的？你们是如何决定这是一项值得投入的事呢？然后，为了让它更进一步地推向市场，采取了哪些步骤？我想这可能在很早就开始了，其实是从AI概述开始，这是我们首次将生成式AI引入搜索的方式。在这一过程中，我们注意到人们提出了这些问题。
Many people were actually trying to put natural language questions into search. And so how can you provide helpful context, links to go deeper, and make an AI that made sense for Google? And so that was our first version of these models that could do this for people. And then by building into that and seeing kind of this observation around people wanting more of it, direct access to it, and then being able to ask follow-up questions, like you kind of need a new modality.
许多人实际上尝试在搜索中使用自然语言提问。那么，如何提供有用的背景信息、链接以进行更深入的探索，并构建一个对谷歌有意义的人工智能呢？这就是我们第一版模型的功能，可以为人们做这些事情。然后，通过对此进行改进并观察到人们对这种功能的需求越来越多，直接访问功能，并且能够提出后续问题，就像需要一种新的模式一样。
Like it's not going to be really hard to build all of that within the construct of the core search experience. And so that led us to have a former small team of folks, a few people that were like technical leaders, a couple designers, very small, to just prove out what if there was almost blank screen, like make a fresh dock with a blinker. What if there's a new page, and you can ask the question, you can ask every one of it.
这并不会特别难，因为它是在核心搜索体验的框架内构建的。这让我们成立了一个小团队，里面有一些技术领袖和几位设计师，规模很小。我们想验证一个想法：如果有一个几乎是空白的页面，就像一个刚打开的文档，只显示一个光标闪烁。假如有这样一个新页面，你可以在上面提出问题，问任何问题。
You can tap right into the AI that was originally powering, powering this top of the experience in search, but we invested in making it much more powerful in the ways I described before. It could search for you. It had reasoning as a part of its model capability. It had multi-turned context. So if you had a conversation with it, it could keep track of that context. So it had some unique pieces to it. And what would happen if we tried that quickly?
您可以直接使用最初用于增强搜索体验的AI，但我们进行了投资，使其变得更强大，如之前描述的那样。它可以帮您进行搜索，具备推理能力，并能在多轮对话中保持上下文。如果您与它对话，它可以跟踪对话背景，因此它具有一些独特的功能。那么，如果我们快速尝试一下，会发生什么呢？
And we basically got, I mean, this was probably like five to ten people worth of people originally. And how long ago was this team formed? This was probably over the last year. You've got some. Wow. They simply went into the whole year ago. Yeah, maybe about a year ago. It was where maybe it started. And we were really kind of plugging away on it. And then we kind of saw this little version of it emerge that wasn't very good, but it had this moment of brilliance.
基本上，我们一开始大概有五到十个人左右。 这个团队是什么时候组建的呢？大概是一年前的事了。 是的，他们大概是一年前就开始了。 也许那时我们开始着手这个项目，我们一直在努力推进。 然后我们看到了这个小版本，它不是很好，但闪现出一些很有潜力的亮点。
And it's actually, oh, again, it's kind of like golf where like you hit the perfect shot and you're like, oh, my God, like you get that feeling where it's just everything worked. And I asked it a question about, I was like, I was doing something with my daughter and I was planning an experience. And it found all of this like incredibly useful information about park information. It had links to like go to the site and confirm a bunch of things.
这实际上有点像打高尔夫球，当你打出完美一杆时，你会感叹："哦，我的天哪"，那种万事俱备的感觉。我问了它一个问题，当时我和女儿在一起做一些事情，计划一次活动。它找到了很多非常有用的公园信息，还有可以去网站确认各种信息的链接。
It had Google Maps information that like for my daughter, you could, you know, walk up. It had like, it was walkable. Like there was early examples like this where it was just, it blew me away. What it could do, what it could find and how helpful it was. And so it gave us conviction that we should go and go go further. And obviously there's lots of people involved in this type of a decision, tons of support from leaders across the organization.
它包含了谷歌地图的信息，比如说对我女儿来说，你可以步行过去。它的确是可以步行的。有一些早期的例子，真的让我大吃一惊。它能做什么，能找到什么，以及它有多么有用。这让我们坚定了继续前进的决心。当然，这类决策涉及许多人，全组织的领导者们提供了大量支持。
But it just has like a little working team that, that, an issue, you got to build something and then you have to feel it yourself. And it's a very entrepreneurial in that way. And then when you see it tangibly, you're like, we need like, what's a version of that? That's good. And that could work. And that gave you hope. And so then we basically built it out and built the first version that launched in labs, basically.
这只是一个小型工作团队，当遇到问题时，你需要构建一些东西，然后自己去体验。以这种方式来说，它非常具有创业精神。当你看到具体成果时，你会想着，我们需要一个好的版本，而这个版本可能会奏效，而且这让你充满希望。于是我们基本上就把它开发出来，并推出了实验室中的第一个版本。
So the first big milestone was, this is working. It was just a qualitative experience of like, oh wow, this has really interesting, this there's magic here. Yes, it's working. And then we did bring it before labs actually to trust a tester group. There were maybe like 500 people externally that we added onto it and we had things with them, some of them were, they actually had friends and family.
第一个重要的里程碑是：这个项目奏效了。这种感受就像是，哇，这个东西真的很有趣，简直就像有魔力一样。是的，它成功了。然后，我们在正式推出之前，将它交到了一个测试小组手中。我们大约让500名外部人员参与测试，其中有些人实际上还邀请了他们的朋友和家人参与。
We tried to treat a little more like a startup where we feel like you got to have people test it to tell you the truth and tell you when it sucks because it probably does. And then they'd message you. So I had a friend who was loving it, but also hating it for lots of good reasons and would just be messaging me all the time, screenshots. This broke, this broke, this makes no sense. And so we kind of had that for a while. Then we got to a point where it was feeling good, you know, the trust of testers were liking it, reporting good stuff. And then we brought it to this labs moment where anyone could turn it on. And then we used that to make it better with real query data. We actually see if people were using it for a more scale. And so that could tune it to make it better. And then we launched an IOT everyone, at least in the US.
我们尝试以类似初创公司的方式对待这个项目，我们觉得必须让人们测试它，以便告诉你真相，并在它不好的时候指出来，因为很可能确实不好。然后他们会给你发信息。我有个朋友既喜欢又讨厌这个项目，有很多合理的理由，他会不断给我发信息、截图，指出哪里出问题了、不合理。我们这种状态持续了一段时间。后来，我们到了一个感觉还不错的阶段，测试者们开始喜欢它，并报告了很多积极的反馈。然后我们进入了一个实验阶段，任何人都可以开启这个项目。我们利用真实的查询数据来改进它，观察人们在更大规模上使用它的情况，从而进行优化，最终在美国，向所有人推出了这个物联网项目。
And then we've now been on this journey to expand it to all countries and languages and have more people be able to access it. It's incredible that Google went roughly in a year from idea to a significant change to the search experience that's AI powered. I think this is not what people imagine Google is like. And it feels like things are different and things have changed in how you guys operate. But what has allowed this to happen so quickly? What's changed? Is it just like top-down leadership we need to get you done, or is there something more? No, I think it's interesting how organizations change. I think when you feel like there is a moment in time that is clearly critical to deliver for people, people are trying to get information from Google.
然后，我们一直在努力将其扩展到所有国家和语言，以便更多人能够访问它。令人难以置信的是，谷歌在大约一年的时间里，从一个想法发展到对AI驱动的搜索体验进行重要改变。我认为这不是大家对于谷歌一贯形象的预期。感觉谷歌的运作方式有所不同，事情有了改变。但是什么促使这一切快速发生呢？包括发生了什么样的变化？这是否仅仅是因为有高层领导的明确指示需要去完成，还是有更多的因素？不，我觉得组织变化本身蛮有趣。当你感觉到有一个显然对公众非常重要的时刻来临时，人们正在通过谷歌获取信息。
We are not able to answer certain things or help people in certain ways. And there's this technology that can do it. That creates urgency. And obviously, lots of people building lots of things and the market is crazy and there's lots of things shipping all the time. And so there's a really exciting and healthy moment for us to build and build quickly. And I think it's just exciting to be able to capture that opportunity because I think people believe, and I certainly believe that the next year or so a product is going to kind of establish how people use the next wave of products for many years. And so at least I'm going to speak for myself. I feel this obligation to our users to give them the best version of Google that's powered by AI and that gives them full knowledge of everything Google knows about the world and information to people and accessible with AI.
我们在某些方面无法回答问题或提供帮助，但现在有了一项能够做到这些的技术。这让人感到紧迫。显然，很多人都在开发各种东西，市场也很疯狂，总是有各种新产品推出。因此，这对我们来说是一个非常振奋人心且健康的时刻，可以快速地进行创新。我认为，抓住这个机会是令人兴奋的，因为我和许多人都相信，在接下来的一年左右，一款产品将会奠定未来多年人们使用新一代产品的方式。因此，我至少可以代表自己说，我感到有责任为用户提供由人工智能驱动的最佳版本的谷歌，使用户可以获得关于世界的所有知识和信息，并通过人工智能方便地获取。
So that's driving a lot of the excitement. Yeah, it's such a good point that people are building their new habits. Like it's a wild how many people just now rely on chat GPT and how quickly that happened. And I could see Google being worried that oh shit everyone's changing their habit from searching Google to searching chat GPT. And the fact that now Gemini's number one is actually looking at the list of top. So in the top 15 apps, Google is I think five of them. A third. That's at a control. So kill in it. When people look at AI mode versus a chat GPT or cloud or what's even say perplexity, what's the way you think about the positioning of AI mode versus these other tools as a like trying to be a direct competitor or is it just like no it's actually pretty different in here is what it's for.
这就是为什么有那么多的兴奋点。是啊，大家正在建立新的习惯这一点真的很重要。很多人现在依赖于ChatGPT，这种转变发生得非常快。这让我能理解谷歌可能会担心，大家的搜索习惯正从使用谷歌搜索转变为使用ChatGPT。而且现在Gemini成为了第一，实际上是在查看热门列表。在前15个应用程序中，我认为谷歌占了五个。这是非常强势的表现。所以说，表现优异。当人们比较AI模式与ChatGPT、Cloud或Perplexity的时候，你是如何看待AI模式在这些工具中的定位的？是想成为一个直接的竞争对手还是说其实它有不同的用途？
Yeah, I mean AI mode is a way to ask search anything you want. It's designed and specially created for information. And so really it's it should give incredible, helpful responses for the things that people come to Google for. So think about you're planning a trip. You're trying to buy something. You're working through a question for a research project. Like it needs information. And that's really it's less focused on things like creativity. Although there are things that can do that are nice there. It can help you with just like any kind of core AI product. Like you can ask it to rewrite something for you. It'll do that. But we are less focused on creativity, productivity, like upload a spreadsheet and like output graphs for me.
人工智能模式是一种可以问任何你想知道问题的方式。它专门为提供信息而设计，所以它应该能够给人们在使用谷歌时提供非常有用的回答。比如说，你在计划一次旅行，或者你想购买某件东西，或者你需要解答一个研究项目中的问题，这些都需要信息。这一模式并不太注重创造力，尽管它有一些很不错的功能，比如帮助你重写一些东西。但是，我们更少关注创造力和生产力，比如上传一个电子表格然后生成图表等。
Like we're not focused on that. Like we're really focused on what people use Google for and making an AI for that so that you can come to Google ask whatever you want and get effortless information about that and in context and links and then also verified again and go to the authoritative sources ultimately that people want and we hear from people. So those are ends up becoming the distinct qualities of this product versus more of like a chatbot. Maybe you would talk to it. Like you maybe even have like a bit of like, hey, how are you doing today with that chatbot that you know, we have some of that. We see that a little bit. But people are usually coming for information to try and learn something and that we've focused our product on that.
我们并没有专注于那些事情。我们真正关注的是人们使用谷歌的目的，并为此打造一款人工智能产品。这样你可以来谷歌询问任何问题，轻松获取相关信息、背景资料和链接，并获得经过验证的信息，最终引导你去到人们想要的权威来源，也就是我们从用户那里得知的需求。因此，这款产品与其说是一个聊天机器人，不如说它具备更多独特的特点。也许你会和聊天机器人聊聊天，比如今天你过得怎么样。我们确实注意到类似的互动。但大多数人来这里是为了获取信息和学习新的知识，因此我们的产品专注于此。
Got it. Okay. AI mode is not your therapist. Maybe zooming out again a little bit and reflecting on all the amazing products you've worked on, all the places you've worked. If you had to pick two or three just core product principles or philosophies that have helped you build such amazing and successful products, what would this be? What comes to mind? I mean, there's typically three things I think about like I've heard right away a book about how to how to build great products. They'd be like three chapters. I mean, probably more than that, but three chapters. I love that. I love the hash shirt that would be. That's the ideal one.
明白了。好的，AI模式不是你的治疗师。也许可以再从更广泛的角度来反思一下你所参与的所有出色产品，以及你曾经工作过的所有地方。如果你必须选择两到三个核心的产品原则或理念，这些原则或理念帮助你打造了如此出色且成功的产品，它们会是什么？有哪些想法浮现在脑海中？通常，我会想到三件事情，比如会立即想到一本关于如何打造优秀产品的书，可能会有三个章节。当然，可能会不止三个章节，但会有三个主要章节。我喜欢这个主意，我喜欢这样描述理想状态的方式。
I mean, I thought about these three areas now for a while and it's like they're always consistently the three things. The first is deeply understand people and I think we talked about this a little bit with the jobs to be done point and Clayton, Christian, Zinsbook, which I loved around competing against luck. It really helps you be a student of why someone ends up in his words hiring a product.
我已经考虑过这三个领域了一段时间，它们一直是我关注的重点。首先是深入理解人。我想我们之前谈过一点关于“任务理论”和克莱顿·克里斯汀生的书《与运气竞争》。这本书让我很喜欢，因为它帮助我更好地理解为什么人们最终会“雇佣”一个产品。
Like don't think of users as using your product. Think of users as hiring you to do something for them. There's this famous quote. I think it's Peter Levitt had. People don't want a quarter. People don't want a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole. So what does someone trying to do? You have to understand that deeply. And then you can build an amazing product. And also by the way, how do you when you go back, like why someone not using your product, right?
不要把用户看作是在使用你的产品，而是把他们看作是在雇佣你来为他们完成某件事。有一个著名的引用，我认为是彼得·乐维特说的。他说，人们并不想要一个四分之一英寸的钻头，而是想要一个四分之一英寸的洞。所以，你需要深刻理解用户真正想实现的目标。这样你才能打造出优秀的产品。另外，当有人不使用你的产品时，你也需要回过头去思考：为什么他们不用你的产品？
And so it focuses on these techniques to extract causation. He actually talks a lot about this interview. He calls it an interrogation. We talk to a user like, hey, why do you use my product? Where were you? Were you in bed? Were you at work? What were you doing? I was talking to my wife in the morning. Okay, well, what brought it up? Well, I guess I was reading the newspaper. Okay, well, why? And then you have this aha moment.
因此，它侧重于利用这些技巧来提取因果关系。他实际上在这次访谈中谈了很多关于这个话题。他称这为一次“审问”。我们像这样与用户交流：“嘿，你为什么使用我的产品？当时你在哪里？是在床上吗？是在工作吗？你在做什么？”用户可能会回答：“我当时在早上和妻子聊天。”“哦，那是什么引起了这个话题？”“嗯，我想是我在看报纸。”“好的，那为什么呢？”然后你可能会有一个“恍然大悟”的时刻。
Like that when they first decide to use your product, he calls it the big hire. That is information that you obtain ends up becoming the most critical because that is what caused someone to use your product. If you can study that and understand it, you will be much more on your way than just building things that sound cool. And so that's the first chapter is like deep understanding people.
当用户第一次决定使用你的产品时，这被称为"重大雇用"。这是你获得的信息中最关键的部分，因为这是促使某人使用你的产品的原因。如果你能够研究并理解这一点，你就比仅仅去开发那些听起来很酷的东西更接近成功。因此，这就是第一章的内容：深刻理解人们。
Seconds really around analytical rigor and understanding your problems. You have to understand your problems. And this got this a little bit of what we were talking about about root cause analysis and understanding, okay, the metrics are dropping like why someone's not using your product why and really being able to dissect that to get to true root causes. It's like, well, they went all the way to the end and then bailed.
这段话主要强调了分析严谨性和理解问题的重要性。你需要深入理解你的问题。这跟我们讨论的根本原因分析有些相关，比如理解为什么某些指标下降、为什么有人不使用你的产品，并真正将其剖析以找到真正的根本原因。就像是，用户一路体验到最后关头却放弃了。
And you talked and then you understand it turns out that it was mostly actually learned about this and there's a story in close friends at Instagram where it just totally failed at first on a bunch of just when we shipped it. And it turned out that we looked at the data and people were only adding one close friend to their list because it was mistranslated as best friend in many markets. So people just put one person and then the probability that person sigh and wrote back to you was like zero.
你谈话后才明白，原来大多数情况是通过学习得来的。在 Instagram 的亲密朋友功能中，就有这样一个故事，起初推出时彻底失败。结果发现，通过查看数据，人们在很多市场上只添加了一个亲密朋友，因为这个功能在这些市场上被错误翻译成了“最好的朋友”。所以人们只会加一个人，而那个人看到并回复你的概率几乎为零。
It's a product which is broken. So it's like you got to understand your problems. And then the third one's around really designing for clarity instead of cleverness. Like a lot of people are like, oh, we're going to differentiate the design and you know, we talked about this a little bit with stories like we're going to make a new version of something. But if something's a standard and people understand it, if you lean into it, you're going to get so much leverage and if you reinvent it and you have to be really thoughtful around when you reinvent and where you don't.
这是一个有缺陷的产品。所以你需要理解你面对的问题。第三个问题是关于设计时要注重清晰而不是追求巧妙。很多人喜欢说，他们要通过设计来凸显与众不同，我们也讨论过类似的例子，比如要做一个东西的新版本。但是，如果某个设计已经成了标准并且人们已经理解了它，那么如果你顺势而为，会有很大的优势。而如果重新发明，你就必须非常慎重地考虑什么时候该创新，什么时候不该。
I think on this one there's this great Don Norman's book, obviously a design of everyday things is a big one. But he has this incredible chapter in there about doors and how why is it that after all of these years, you walk up to a door and based on how they're designed at times, people still don't know if you should pull or push that door because if you try to build them as beautiful symmetric two handles on each side on a glass door, it like doesn't communicate in for any information to you.
我觉得在这方面，唐·诺曼的那本书《设计日常事物》是一本很有代表性的书。其中有一个非常精彩的章节是关于门的设计。书中提到，即便经过了这么多年，很多门的设计依然让人困惑，到底应该推还是拉。这主要是因为，某些美观对称的设计，比如两边都有把手的玻璃门，并没有给使用者传达出任何有用的信息。
There's lots of I've seen all the time we've designed new icons when we could have used global icons like, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if we used, you know, like a camera that's like kind of a camera, but is mostly an AI looking thing and then is most, but then has the dots in it that connects it to this other product and you're like, people just just camera just put the camera in. Maybe you could add like a little thing to it and that's how you get people to use your products.
我们经常在设计新图标时，放弃了使用通用图标的机会。我常想：要是我们能用一个既像相机又带有AI元素的图标，那不是很酷吗？然后再加上一些连接其他产品的点。但实际上，人们只希望看到一个简单明了的相机图标。你可以在图标上添加一点小元素，这样反而更能吸引人们使用你的产品。
And if you do those three things, I think you typically can do well. And then outside the fourth one, there's more of the code is be humble, like constantly and always question yourself, listen to others, listen to users and be open to being wrong. I love these. On that third point, I feel like AI mode as the name is such a good example of clarity. What is this? This is AI mode. We talked about it internally. Like it's like, if you look at it in the tab, it's like everyone knows, it's like you see it and you'll know what it is. Or we could call it something like random, but then what is that, you know, and now you're working against yourself.
如果你能做到这三点，我认为你通常可以做好。而在第四点之外，还有一个更重要的原则，那就是谦逊：不断地质疑自己，倾听他人和用户的意见，并且对自己可能出错保持开放的态度。我非常喜欢这些原则。关于第三点，我觉得“AI模式”这个名字就是清晰定义的一个很好的例子。这是什么？这就是AI模式。我们在内部讨论过，就像在标签上看到它的时候，大家都知道这是什么。如果我们给它取一个随意的名字，那就变得模糊了，这样做就像是在给自己制造障碍。
So if I were to reflect back these three pieces of basically, this is the book you would write to help people build more successful products, it's understand the problem you're solving for people deeply. What's the job they're hiring you to do? I love the, I love the, it's like lowercase jobs to be done. It's not like the rigorous whole thing. Exactly. No, lowercase for sure. Okay. This is just like why are people hiring your product to solve a problem for them with problem? Are they solving? Why they, what problem they're having? Then very, through data, understand the problem and whether you are solving it.
那么，如果要回顾这三点，基本上，这就是你会写的书，用于帮助人们打造更成功的产品。首先，要深入理解你为人们解决的问题。他们让你做的工作是什么？我喜欢这个概念，就像是小写的“要完成的工作”，并不是那种严格、全面的东西。没错，很简单。关键在于人们为什么要使用你的产品来解决他们的问题，他们到底在解决什么问题？然后，通过数据深入了解这些问题，以及你是否正在解决这些问题。
And then it's just keep it really simple, like clarity over cleverness, essentially. Exactly. Yes. And be humble. And be humble. Yeah. Okay. Important. Is there an example that we haven't talked about that shows this in action of just like cool? Here's the problem we found. Here's how we figured out this is the solution. And if we're succeeding and then here's a very simple way of solving it. I mean, honestly, this close friend's example, I can give you more from in strand days, was really wild. It took two or three years to get close friends to work. And I think people, it totally failed originally. This is the product that lets you add a private list of people and then you can close to your story and then only those people see it. It's like this very exclusive private space so you can feel really comfortable sharing.
然后，就是要保持简单，像是追求清晰而非聪明，这很重要。没错。是的，而且要保持谦逊。保持谦逊。嗯，好的。这很重要。有没有我们还没讨论过的例子可以展示这种做法的成效？就是说，这就是我们发现的问题，这就是我们找到解决办法的过程，如果我们成功了，这就是一个非常简单的解决方法。实际上，这个“密友”功能的例子就很典型。在开发“密友”功能的初期，经历过非常大的波折，前后花了两到三年的时间才让它运作正常。最初它完全失败了。这项功能允许用户添加一个私人列表，然后只向列表中的人分享自己的动态故事，因此分享者可以在这个非常私密且专属的空间中感到很舒适。
Green, green circle. Green circles. Yes. It's one of the most popular, at least when I was there. It was one of the most popular features of stories and did really well, but it totally failed. And I think what we found out was that you actually used a bunch of these techniques here. So one was we first thought about it as an overall system problem and you could add a close friend's post for anything. So you could do a feed post or a story's post. And you also had a close friend's profile. So you could see like if Lenny went to Robby's page with your close friends, you would just be like, oh, you get to see extra stuff from me on my profile too.
绿色，绿色的圆圈。绿色的圆圈，是的。它是最受欢迎的功能之一，至少在我在那里的时候是这样。尽管它非常受欢迎，但最终却彻底失败了。我认为我们发现的问题在于，其实你使用了很多这些技术。首先，我们把它看作一个整体系统问题，任何内容都可以添加到密友的动态中。无论是信息流动态还是限时动态都可以使用。你也有一个密友的个人主页功能，比如说，Lenny访问Robby的密友页面，就能看到我主页上额外的信息。
So we shipped it. We thought it would be great. This is the Be humble part. Wasn't great. It was just super confusing. Like you see this really beautiful photo. And then in the feed right after it, this blurry, very vulnerable moment, someone's trying to share with their friends. It just felt so out of place and weird for the reason people use feed. And then it was just confusing because you didn't, it had like an extra little green thing on it, but it was like that got a green thing and the story is one didn't. If you open the story, it had a green thing inside the story. And people were just so confused. And it had this other issue with the list where you're like, okay, the list doesn't work because it's mistranslated and people don't get it.
所以我们发布了这个产品。我们原以为它会很棒。这就是要保持谦逊的部分。结果并不如预期，它实在是让人感到困惑不已。你会看到一张非常漂亮的照片，然后在接下来的动态中，是一张模糊且非常私密的瞬间，有人试图与朋友分享。这样的安排让人感觉不合时宜，和人们使用动态的目的不符，而且令人困惑。因为虽然它有一个小小的绿色标记，但感觉上一个有绿色标记，而故事中的却没有。如果你打开这个故事，里面又有一个绿色标记。这让人相当困惑。此外，还有一个与列表相关的问题，因为翻译不当，人们根本无法理解。
Because I think it was actually called originally favorites, I want to say. And that encouraged people to just do like two people on it. But then the way that it worked was so this gets to the framework, I guess. So they're deeply understanding people. Like what are people trying to do with this? What they're trying to do is share a vulnerable thing and be like, hey, I'm lonely. Hey, what's going on? Like our people up. And it feels very much like a friend group thing. And if you only have two people on it, the job that we're doing is actually connecting you to your friends. And if you don't get a DM back, it's broken. And so really what we're doing is getting you a DM and we're getting you connection.
我想说，最初这个功能可能是叫做“收藏夹”。这就鼓励人们只和两个人分享。但是这个功能的运作方式涉及到一个框架，就是深入了解人们的需求。人们想做的是分享一些脆弱的感觉，比如说“我很孤单”或者“大家在干什么呢？”这种感觉很像是和朋友群体互动。如果只有两个人使用这个功能，我们的任务其实是帮助你和朋友建立联系。如果你没有收到私信，那这个功能就算失败了。所以我们实际上是在为你获取私信和联系。
We're getting you a sense of being connected to your close friends. That is the job. It's actually, there are things Clayton Christian talked about in the book is there are utility jobs and there are emotional jobs. People usually discount the emotional ones a lot. This was really an emotional thing as much as it was utility one. And so Prox broken, right? And people don't even know that you can it's a close friend story to see the little head because you have to click on it to see the thing. And so it just people stop using it.
我们的目标是让你感受到与亲密朋友的联系。这就是我们的工作。克莱顿·克里斯坦森在书中提到，有功能性的工作和情感性的工作。人们往往低估了情感方面的工作。实际上，这在很大程度上是一个情感需求，同时也是一个功能需求。因此，Prox 出现了问题，很多人甚至不知道你可以通过点击查看密友故事的小头像来看到这些内容，所以人们就停止使用它了。
So we went through and we did these revs where we would like simplify it and we would update it and we would go through this change list. Okay, take this out, take this out, change the name here. And then we saw it was that it was working really well for people who added 20 to 30 people to their list. Because what would happen is you put 30 people on your list and then two of them would write back to you on DM and now you have closed the loop and you feel connected to those people. It's a winning thing. And so we designed the whole system around that and also only worked in stories.
所以，我们进行了这些修订，简化并更新了它，并浏览这个变更列表。好，把这个拿掉，把那个拿掉，这里改个名字。然后我们发现，对于那些将20到30人添加到他们列表中的人来说，这种方法效果很好。因为当你把30个人放到你的列表上时，其中的两个人会通过私信回复你，这样你就建立了联系，感到彼此更加亲近。这是一件很成功的事。所以，我们围绕这个设计了整个系统，并限定它只能在故事中使用。
So we were looking at the data. We were trying to understand where it was working and where it was failing. And then we updated the name to close friends. So it didn't feel like favorite. So it wasn't like three people. It's like 20 in the list. We built this list builder where we recommended a set of people based on some data, some cool algo that was created by an engineer.
我们在查看数据，试图弄清楚哪些地方有效，哪些地方有问题。然后我们把名字改成了“亲密好友”，这样就不再像“最爱”那样。这个清单不只是三个人，而是有20个人。我们创建了一个列表生成器，根据一些数据和一位工程师设计的很酷的算法，给用户推荐了一些人。
And then we updated the design to put the green ring on the outside of the story so that this was kind of the design for clarity. It was we were being cute. Like, oh, if you we thought I think at the time it was like, oh, it's like a secret story or something. And if you open it, you see it. It just was not clear to people. And so we put the green ring on the outside so that users would see it in the train. Like, ooh, what's that little green guy? And then they'd click on it and they're like, oh, this is like a private story for me. That system worked and did incredibly well.
然后我们更新了设计，把绿色的圈圈放在故事的外面，这样的设计是为了增加清晰度。当时我们觉得这样很有趣，就好像这是个秘密故事，用户点开后才能看到。不过之前的设计让用户感到不明所以。因此，我们决定把绿色圈圈放在外面，这样用户在浏览时会注意到“哎，这个绿色的小东西是什么？”然后他们就会点击，发现这是属于自己的私人故事。这个设计非常奏效。
And that was the process we followed from like a total flop to something that was very successful. That is an awesome example. And this took two or three years, you said. Yeah. It took a while. That was actually one of the longest projects we worked on. But that actually came. The reason we did it was when we asked people to do to understand people. Like, why not keep posting to your stories?
这就是我们从彻底失败到获得巨大成功所遵循的过程。这是一个非常棒的例子。你说这花了两三年，对吧？是的，这是一个漫长的过程。这确实是我们参与过的时间最长的项目之一。而我们之所以这样做，是因为当我们想要理解人们为什么不继续在他们的动态上发帖时，我们进行了这样的尝试。
Like, what's preventing you from doing it? Everyone had some version of, well, my ex is on it. I have a teacher on it. Oh, a friend that kind of is judgy is on it. It was like this kind of like commonality was audience problems. I'm going to have an issue with people watching them. And so that gave us conviction to go this hard at it for so long because we knew that that was a core problem with the product.
"那么，是什么阻止了你去做呢？每个人都有这样的情况，比如，我的前任在上面，我的老师在上面，哦，有个有点爱评头论足的朋友也在上面。这就像是一种普遍的困扰，就是观众的问题。我会因有些人在观看而感到不安。因此，这让我们有信心长期坚持下去，因为我们知道这是产品的一个核心问题。"
Was this connected to the Finsta trend also? It was. Actually, I think that informed us. Like, everyone had a Finsta. There was a Finsta. All right. Pass a friend. It's like this layering of like, give people like 20 Finsta's down to like your partner, Finsta. And then it's basically like, I made that up. I don't know if it's true. I'm sure Finsta's out there somewhere.
这和Finsta潮流有关吗？是的，其实它给了我们一些启发。每个人都有一个Finsta，就像是，大家都有Finsta。好吧，传给朋友。这就像是一种层层递进的方式，让人们拥有大约20个Finsta，从到你伴侣的Finsta为止。然后基本上就是，我是瞎编的，不知道是不是这样。不过我相信某个地方肯定有Finsta的存在。
And we were like, well, people could try to hack Instagram basically to create these private smaller group settings. And so we should just make a product. How did you actually do this testing? Was it rolled out to 100% edge? Was it rolled out like an easy line or whatever? Yeah, we rolled out in a few other countries. Exactly. Okay. We had like a basket of countries that we tried it in.
我们当时想，人们有可能会试图破解 Instagram 来创建私人小群组，所以我们决定直接开发一个产品来满足这个需求。你们是怎么进行测试的？是否在所有用户中全面推行？还是只是简单地在某个区域测试？对，我们在几个其他国家部署了这个功能。可以说我们挑选了一些国家进行尝试。
And then we would do research. I think it was Australia was one of the first ones for that one. Okay. I was going to ask if you can share the country. So Australia. I think that was one of the earlier ones. Yeah. But it's always every time you ship something is a slightly different reason why. Oh, interesting. So it's not always Australia gets all the new stuff.
然后我们会进行研究。我记得其中最早的一个国家是澳大利亚。好的。我本来想问你是否可以分享这个国家的信息。所以是澳大利亚。我想那是较早的几个之一。是的。但是每次你运送某些东西时，原因总是有些不同。哦，有趣。所以并不是每次新东西都先给澳大利亚。
No, although it's sometimes is Australian Canada. I get a lot of stuff just because easier for the teams to like see feedback from them. Yeah. Speaking of which. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Okay. Let me go in a different direction and talk about something that you have a hot take on. There's a lot of talk these days about lean teams, small teams, just creating limited resources, not hiring at all.
不，尽管有时候是澳大利亚和加拿大。我收到很多东西，只是因为这样更方便团队查看反馈。是的，说到这个。对，没错，太好了。好的，让我换个话题，谈谈你有独特见解的事情。最近有很多关于精简团队、小团队的话题，就是仅用有限资源，完全不招聘。
You kind of have an opposite perspective of you actually need a lot of resources to build a really big breakthroughs. Talk about your experience there. Yeah. I mean, I think there's obviously, depends on what you're trying to build. And there's been famously small teams building big impact products. I think there's kind of this cult of lean scrappy, fast, throw away your product quickly, keep moving.
你似乎有相反的观点，认为其实需要很多资源才能创造重大突破。能谈谈你的经验吗？是的，我觉得这显然取决于你想要创建什么项目。历史上确实有一些小团队打造出巨大影响力产品的案例。我认为现在有一种崇尚“精简而灵活”的理念，即快速开发产品，然后迅速淘汰，再接着前进。
And I think at some level, it's true for internal conviction, but to build a product that works for a lot of people that is based on a technological breakthrough. A lot of times I see teams just give up to earlier, underinvest in the product. And obviously the space matters. And if you're building, you know, like a single product that is a way to, I don't know, do something with a digital app that's fairly straightforward.
我认为，在某种程度上，这对于内心的信念而言是正确的，但要基于技术突破构建一个适用于很多人的产品，很多时候我看到团队过早地放弃，并且在产品上投入不足。当然，所处的领域也很重要。如果你在开发一个相对简单的数字应用产品，那可能就不太需要担心这些问题。
That's going to be different than building a robotics company, right? So what you're building does change. But even for software, I mean, I think for really hard technical problems, think about the amount of time an effort took for teams to build a foundational model. And how many years. and hundreds and hundreds of people that were needed for that to happen. And you think about these large companies that have had huge impacts on people.
那将会不同于创建一家机器人公司，对吧？所以你所建立的东西会有所改变。但即使是软件，对于真正困难的技术问题，想想团队为了构建一个基础模型所花费的时间和努力，以及需要多少年和成百上千人才的参与。再想想那些对人们产生巨大影响的大公司。
And I think particularly for bigger companies internally, something I've seen is it's almost like too scrappy because it never gets enough momentum. If the frog never gets good enough internally, and then it kind of just dies on the vine, or as if you put more people on it, you have to be careful not to put too many too soon. But I see the opposite more true where people hold on to small teams too long. And then you kind of like, either takes forever to get to the thing you're looking for, like this close friends example I mentioned.
我认为，尤其在大公司内部，我观察到的情况是，有时候事情变得过于零碎，因为它从未获得足够的发展动力。就像是在公司内部做得不够好，于是项目就无疾而终了。或者，如果你投入更多的人手，必须小心不要过早加太多人。但我发现，往往更常见的情况是，人们把团队规模维持得太小太久了。这样的话，你要么需要花很长时间才能达到预期的目标，比如我提到的那个亲密好友的例子。
This is actually was a small team. And the reason it took us forever was to kept the team so small and scrappy that like loop cycle was so short. And by a startup age, you'd be dead probably. So you can maybe do that in a bigger company, but as a startup, I don't know if you have that, you know, that leisure. And so I think you need to actually think, what is the group I need to build a version that's great? And from first principles, really think about it.
这实际上是一个小团队。我们花了很长时间的原因是，我们保持团队规模非常小和灵活，以至于发展循环非常短。在创业公司的背景下，你可能早就失败了。在大公司中，你也许可以这样做，但作为一个创业公司，我不确定你是否有这样的闲暇。因此，我认为你需要真正思考，我需要什么样的团队来打造一个出色的版本？从最基本的原则出发，深入思考这个问题。
Instead of just embracing blindly, okay, we're going to be the two of us until this thing has escaped velocity and market fit, which it's not always true. It's definitely counter to the narrative. We see on Twitter, anything you can share that just like the heuristic you use to decide. Here's one how long to keep it small. I know it's, you know, there's not going to be this step one, two, three, but just like, what I'm hearing is start small to prove out the concept designer, PM engineer, maybe when do you find that makes sense to go big?
与其盲目地接受我们两个人将一直合作直到项目达到突破和市场契合，这并不总是正确的。这样的观点确实和我们在 Twitter 上看到的叙述有所不同。你是否可以分享一下你用来决定的经验法则之类的？例如，坚持小规模发展多久才合适。我知道这不是一个简单的步骤一二三的问题，但我听到的是，开始时要小规模以验证概念，比如设计师、产品经理、工程师。什么时候你觉得扩大规模才有意义？
Yeah, I think that it's mostly when you have, you've hit the conviction moment. Like, I think there's two, there's two big milestones. There's like internal conviction like for yourself, do you believe in it? And you believe in it because there's some external validation like your friends, you know, you put 20 friends on it. And by the way, I found out very quickly, building startups that if you put 20 friends on something, they're not going to do that many favors.
是的，我认为这主要发生在你达到了信念的关键时刻。比如，我觉得有两个重要的里程碑。一个是内部信念，也就是你自己是否相信这件事。你之所以相信，是因为有一些外部验证，比如你让20个朋友来参与。而且，我很快就发现，在创建初创公司时，如果你让20个朋友参与，他们不会给予太多帮助。
Like, they're not going to use a product every single day because they're your friend. Like 30 days in, 60 days in, 90 days in, they're not using your product unless you're doing something that's useful to them. And so you get like all this feedback and you seeing people really enjoy it, you get to that moment. And then I think that's not a product that would win externally because if you're to ship it, it's like, broken, doesn't work great.
就像，他们不会因为是你的朋友就每天都用某个产品。30天、60天、90天过去了，如果你没做出对他们有用的东西，他们就不会继续使用你的产品。所以，你会收到很多反馈，看到大家真的很喜欢，你会有那种满足的时刻。但我认为，如果你把这个产品对外发布，它不会成功，因为它可能存在问题，表现也不佳。
And then you need to, I think, invest enough to make the best version of it or as good a version as you can to get it out the door and to ship it. And I think that that's kind of like you want to build the right product eventually is the mentality. And you can only really do that with the right, with the right group.
然后，我认为你需要投入足够的精力，把它做到最好，或者尽可能做到最好，以便完成并交付这个产品。我觉得这种心态就像是你最终想要打造出一个合适的产品。而要做到这一点，你需要拥有一个合适的团队。
I'm going to take us to a recurring segment on the podcast that I call AI corner. Okay. What's some way that you've found use for AI in your work in your life that is really interesting, really helpful. And maybe other people can be inspired by. I think one of the coolest trends ever is how AI is affecting multimodal, visual and inspirational needs for people. And it's worked early on this.
好的，我要带大家进入播客中的一个常设环节，我称之为“AI 角落”。那么，你有没有在工作或生活中找到一些非常有趣、非常有用的AI应用方式呢？也许这些方式可以激发他人的灵感。我认为最酷的趋势之一就是AI如何影响人们在多模态、视觉和灵感方面的需求。这方面的工作起步很早。
And I think this is something that I'm actually working on as a project as well. But right now, if you think about what AI has done in large part, it was born and grew up in this text modality as chat. And so for a long time, if you were to ask it to help you, what's a cool way to redact or rate your bookshelf behind you, it's going to describe that to you in text because that's what it knows. But increasingly, AI is going to be liberated to help in every possible modality. And this is something that we've seen a lot with this explosive use of Google Lens and our image search and image features and with this deep understanding.
我正在以此作为一个项目进行研究。目前，如果你考虑AI在很大程度上的发展，它是以文本对话的形式诞生并成长的。因此，长期以来，如果你向AI请求帮助，比如让它给出一个更酷的方式来整理或布置你身后的书架，它会用文字来描述方案，因为这是它所擅长的。然而，AI正越来越多地在各类形式中发挥作用。我们可以看到，随着Google Lens的广泛使用，以及图像搜索和图像功能的深入理解，AI在这方面的发展相当迅猛。
And what I'm actually starting to use internally and some things that we're excited about more coming up that we actually announced at IO that we're going to be building more of was how AI can help with inspiration, how AI can help with shopping and helping you really get things done that are more in the like inspiring bucket of needs versus these like core utilities, like code, math, homework, kind of side of things. And I'm really excited for things that are coming where you can ask it for inspirational tasks. And it's starting to do really fascinating things in terms of what I'm seeing. And hopefully we'll share more on that soon. But I think the one thing I can share is there's a visual version of AI mode that basically we talked about for at IO.
在我们内部开始使用的一些工具，以及我们对未来的一些兴奋之情，其实都是围绕着一种即将在IO大会上宣布的东西展开的：即我们将会进一步开发AI在灵感方面的帮助、购物上的帮助，以及如何帮助你真正完成那些更具启发性而不是核心实用性的任务，比如代码、数学、作业之类的。而我对即将问世的功能感到非常兴奋，你可以请求它进行一些启发性的任务，它开始在这一方面展现出令人惊喜的功能。希望我们能很快与大家分享更多细节。但我可以透露的是，我们曾在IO大会上讨论过一种AI模式的视觉版本。
And so you can reference some of those keynotes. But that's in the process of being rolled out. And so you're going to be able to now ask like, what's a mid-century modern beautiful office design with dark themes? It'll be able to produce this image board that's inspirational. And you can do multi-turn with it. And so you'll be able to go and say, actually I want more of like a light theme, more creamy, more California, more coastal vibe. And it'll do that and it'll understand that. And it'll actually see the images and be able to turn with you in the way that text works, which is going to be really cool.
你可以参考一些重要的演讲，但这项功能正在逐步推出。你将能够询问，比如“什么是中世纪现代风格的漂亮办公室设计，带有深色调？”系统将能够生成一个启发灵感的图像板。你还可以与之进行多轮对话。例如，你可以说：“实际上，我更希望是浅色调，更奶油色，更加加利福尼亚风格，更多海岸风情。”系统会理解并调整图像，与文字交流的方式类似，这将会非常酷。
So I think that's going to be one of the more exciting things that will be new to AI soon. What I'm hearing is nano-banana integrated into AI mode. Recipe first. The little difference in nano-banana is like an image editor. This is more like helping you find images on the web. So it's a little bit more like AI inspiration, AI image search, and allowing you to then talk with two effectively visual responses with natural language. So that's going to I think be a little bit different than edit this photo so that it changes it.
我认为这将是即将应用于人工智能的一个更令人兴奋的新功能。据我所知，将有一种名为nano-banana的技术集成到人工智能模式中。首先是配方。nano-banana与图片编辑器有些不同。它更像是帮助你在网上寻找图片。因此，它更像是一种AI灵感、AI图片搜索功能，允许你通过自然语言与视觉响应进行交流。所以，我认为这与单纯编辑照片以改变它的功能会有所不同。
Although potentially an interesting idea too to have an ability to like take a picture of your living room. And I think AI will help with that too, ultimately. Pinterest is in trouble. Just like this is what people use Pinterest for. Here's all the inspiration. Now it's just AI doing it all. By the way, nano-banana, where does this name come from? I don't actually, I forget that there's a story somewhere. I forget it now, honestly. But the team I think came from a scrappy fun group of people building this.
这确实可能是一个有趣的想法——能够拍下你客厅的照片。我认为人工智能最终也会在这方面提供帮助。Pinterest遇到了麻烦。人们以前就是为了寻找灵感才使用Pinterest。现在这些事情都由人工智能完成了。顺便提一下，“nano-banana”这个名字是从哪里来的？我说实话，不太记得，好像有个故事，但现在已经忘了。不过我觉得这个团队是由一群充满创造力和乐趣的人组成的，他们在一起开发这个项目。
And yeah, they wanted to go for something fun for folks. Yeah, it feels like that's a part of the reason things have started to work. There's just more fun and delight and random crazy stuff coming out. It does feel like it feels a little more like when I was at Google the first time through right now where you kind of just have so much stuff and this kind of fun curiosity happening where people want to try things and ship things. And yeah, hopefully that continues.
他们确实想为大家带来一些有趣的东西。感觉这就是为什么事情开始奏效的一个原因。现在确实有更多有趣、令人愉悦和意料之外的东西出现。这种感觉就像我第一次在谷歌工作时的情景，那里有很多东西，以及这种充满乐趣的好奇心，人们希望尝试和发布新事物。希望这种氛围能够继续下去。
Yeah, feels like VO3 would be even more successful if I had a wacky name. And I like that this is the opposite of your advice of clarity. I don't know what nano-banana is, but it works. Yeah, it's the other thing. No advice is right universally, right? It's like, but yeah, nano-banana. Robbie, is there anything else that you wanted to share anything else you want to leave listeners with as a final nugget of wisdom before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
是啊，我觉得如果 VO3 取个更有趣的名字可能会更成功。我喜欢这种做法，它跟你平时提倡的明确性正好相反。我不知道“nano-banana”是什么意思，但它就是很有效。没错，这就是另一件事，没有一个建议是放之四海而皆准的，对吧？不过是的，“nano-banana”。Robbie，在我们进入紧张刺激的闪电环节之前，你还有什么智慧之语想与听众分享的吗？
This concept be curious. Like I think I think of embodying everything as like it's really about curiosity. It's about wanting to know why everything is the way it is. Why is someone doing something? Why is someone in a different opinion than I do? Why might this not be working? And the people who really have that level of intense curiosity and they chase things down until they know, I think you're well-served by that. Those are my only parting thought.
这个概念很有趣。我觉得将一切都具体化，其实就是关于好奇心。就是想要知道为什么一切都是这样的。为什么有人会做某件事情？为什么有人会有不同的看法？为什么某些事情可能行不通？那些真正拥有强烈好奇心且追求答案的人，我觉得他们会因此受益。以上就是我仅有的一点想法。
Let me follow that thread actually because it's maybe the most trending term on the podcast over the past few months is curiosity. It comes up a lot when I ask people what are you teaching your kids and then embracing with the rise of AI and curiosity comes up all the time. Is there anything that helps you? Is it just like I am good at this and I am curious innately and I'm just this is valuable? Is there anything you can share that helps you or others around you embody that and actually be curious?
让我继续这个话题，因为“好奇心”可能是过去几个月里播客中最流行的词汇之一。当我询问别人他们在教孩子什么，以及如何应对人工智能的兴起时，“好奇心”总会被提到。那么，有什么能帮助你培养好奇心吗？或者你天生对此有兴趣，并认为这是件有价值的事？有没有你可以分享的方法来帮助你或身边的人真正体现并拥有这种好奇心？
I mean AI is obviously like the ultimate curiosity engine and that's what's so cool is you can now ask anything and just get information and so I find that people just under appreciate just how much they can learn about whatever they want. But also I think that a lot of this also comes down to studying what you want to know about and knowing where the branches of knowledge live there. Like a lot of times I'll read like old papers and PDFs that are free online on like a statistics thing if I want to learn about that and I think people under appreciate those as like analog old school great learning and AI can help you discover them and I'm using AI, I'm particularly at Google to help discover all these cool links and things to read
我的意思是，人工智能显然是终极的好奇心引擎，这一点非常酷，因为你现在可以问任何问题并获取信息。我发现人们往往低估了他们能学到多少东西，也就是关于他们想了解的任何事情。不过，我也认为关键在于你想学习什么，以及知道相关知识的分支在哪里。有时候我会在线上阅读旧的论文和免费的PDF文件，比如关于统计学的资料，如果我想了解这方面的知识。我认为人们往往低估了这些传统的学习资源，而人工智能可以帮助你发现它们。我特别利用谷歌的人工智能来发现那些值得阅读的有趣链接和资源。
but I find that that is an interesting hybrid where it's not just AI but really going to original sources more and I find that like these books I mentioned on the on the chat here. I find that you need a blend of all of those things to ultimately really get to the bottom of things ultimately. Like actually reading the thing not just reading the sub-review of the thing. Yes. Yes. I mean actually asking this question I've been asking all these people that are at the cutting edge of AI. You have kids is there anything you're thinking about and leaning into helping them learn develop as AI emerges and becomes a big part of the world?
我发现这是一个有趣的结合体，它不仅仅是人工智能，而是更多地回到原始资料的源头。我觉得就像我在聊天中提到的这些书一样，你需要综合利用所有这些元素才能真正了解事物的本质。就像实际上阅读那些资料，而不仅仅是读那些资料的次级评论。是的，就是这样。我其实一直在问那些处于AI前沿的人一个问题：你有孩子吗？在AI兴起并成为世界的重要组成部分时，你有没有考虑过或者正在倾向于帮助他们学习和发展些什么？
The biggest thing I'm doing I have younger kids so the biggest thing I'm doing is they're using live versions of AI that they just talked to you now much more and so you know it's fun enough we actually just launched search live actually out of labs this week and so you can talk to search in a live AI setting. It's conversational voice on when you're driving you can just talk all the knowledge I talked about what you can do with Google. You can talk to it in a normal conversation with your voice and I found that to be incredibly accessible for kids and I hear all of my kids come home and I can talk to Google about something like what do you need what do you need to say and then they go to my app they hit the live button and they just start talking to it.
我现在正在做的最重要的事情是和我的小孩子一起使用人工智能的实时版本。他们现在能直接对话使用这种技术，感觉真的很有趣。本周我们刚刚在实验室发布了实时搜索功能，你可以在一个实时的AI环境中与搜索功能对话。它是一种对话式语音体验，当你开车的时候，只需用普通的语音对话，就能获取我之前提到的所有Google功能。我发现这对孩子们来说特别易于使用，我听到我的孩子们回到家后，可以直接用他们的声音和Google对话，比如说他们需要什么或者想要说什么。他们只需打开我的应用，点击实时按钮，然后开始与它对话。
They want to know about animals they want to know about you know certain history things they learn about something in school and it's so natural to learn in that way that I think that that's helping them become much more AI native than any other thing I'm doing. Life as a parent is going to be way too easy now whenever kids have questions just go talk to the yeah but I don't think that's bad so this is within the Google search app there's a live how do you how do you access this? Yeah that's exactly why you go to Google app so there's one of the apps in the app story mentioned you open Google and there's a button now that's live on it right on the home screen and if you tap on it it's a live version of AI mode that you can just talk to it's a full screen experience then we'll say like start talking.
他们想了解动物，也想知道一些历史知识，他们在学校里学到的某些东西，这样学习似乎再自然不过了。我认为这帮助他们比我做的任何其他事情都更容易成为“AI原生代”。作为父母的生活将会变得太简单了，无论孩子们有什么问题，只需去与AI交流就行，我觉得这没有什么不好的。这就在谷歌搜索应用中，有一个实时的功能，你想知道如何使用这个功能就是为什么你要打开谷歌应用。在应用商店里提到的应用之一，你打开谷歌，现在主页上有一个新的按钮。点击它，你就能进入一个实时的AI模式，可以与之对话，这是一个全屏的体验，然后会提示你开始交谈。
In the show notes I'm going to link to this project that somebody built Eric Antenau which I I love it's it basically shows you how to put a little speaker into a little stuff animal and you connect the speaker to you could be Google live or it could be JGPT whatever you like in voice mode and you put on your shoulder you get a little magnet that attaches and your kids could talk to this part of this parent for example and you could tell it talking a pirate voice and so they're talking it's really funny okay that's really cute it takes like 15 minutes you like get an exact an iPhone so it and stuff and it's kind of fun I made one for my nephew and he was looking for treasure with this parent that's really adorable
在节目的备注中，我将链接到一个由Eric Antenau构建的项目，我非常喜欢。这个项目基本上教你如何把一个小音箱放进一个小玩偶里，然后你可以将音箱连接到Google Assistant或者其他你喜欢的语音模式，比如ChatGPT。你可以把这个玩偶放在肩膀上，用一个小磁铁固定住，你的孩子们就可以和这个"父母"的一部分对话，比如让它用海盗的声音说话，这样的对话真是太有趣了。整个过程非常可爱，只需要大约15分钟，准备好材料和你的iPhone，然后进行一些操作，非常有趣。我为我的侄子做了一个，他用这个海盗玩偶寻找宝藏，真是太可爱了。
I'm definitely looking to that Robbie with that we reached our very exciting lightning round I've got five questions for you are you ready all right I'm ready what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people I mean definitely the two I mentioned you know here Clayton Christiansen competing against luck Don Norman design of everyday things but I also really love this for fiction Aurora which is this book David Koch wrote it's about it's like electro magnetic pulse in the sun that like knocks out it's like fiction for just fun and it was like a really fun beach read and probably made into a Netflix show it didn't work out I don't know I was sad to see that fall part but so it's a really fun book
我很期待和Robbie一起进行我们的激动人心的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你，你准备好了吗？好，我准备好了。有哪些书是你经常推荐给别人的？我肯定要推荐我之前提到的两本书：克莱顿·克里斯坦森的《与运气竞争》和唐·诺曼的《日常事物的设计》。我也非常喜欢一本小说叫《曙光》，是大卫·科奇写的。这本书讲的是太阳中的电磁脉冲，它的趣味性很高，是一本很适合在海滩上阅读的书，据说还差点被拍成Netflix的节目，不过最后没有实现，我对此感到有些失落。总之，这是一本非常有趣的书。
there's a book along those lines that I love they're making a movie over right now called Hail Mary oh I'm in the middle of reading that right now okay yes yes for the same mind yeah they're making a movie about that the middle of reading it it's it's getting wacky where I am right now but it's I'm excited to see what's wacky or the ending oh really okay it's prepared yourself okay what is a recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed I love the bear I think that's just absolutely awesome show dune of course and I got the new top gun as a little old now but I think the new top. gun was so fun awesome is there a product you recently discovered that you really love it cannot be AI mode I'm gonna use a non digital product perfect um I'm super into this new pillow that I got called purple pillow and I've been recommending it to everyone like at work we're on like a pillow chat now it's like a thing it's like he's talking about like what pillows we're getting but it's this really cool thing where it's got this like new technology of like this honeycomb polymer that's inside and so it like supports you and it as these little micro holes so it doesn't get hot it's really cool big fan strongly recommend purple pillow
这有一本我非常喜欢的书，现在他们正在拍成电影，叫《万全计划》（Hail Mary）。哦，我正在读这本书呢。对，咱俩想到一块去了，他们正拍电影呢。我正在读这本书，它越来越有趣了，我很期待看到电影是怎么表现的，结局会更精彩吗？哦，真的吗？好吧，我得准备好。我最近看了一部或电视节目我特别喜欢，我非常喜欢《厨师长》（The Bear），这绝对是个非常棒的节目。《沙丘》当然也是佳作，还有《壮志凌云2》（虽然有点旧了），我觉得新《壮志凌云》特别有意思，棒极了。有没有最近发现什么特别喜欢的产品？不能是人工智能。我会选择一个非数字产品，非常好。我最近特别喜欢一个新买的枕头，叫Purple Pillow，我跟所有人都推荐过，甚至在公司我们还聊起了枕头，成了个话题。这个枕头超级酷，有一种新技术的蜂巢聚合物结构，能够很好地支撑，而且上面有些小孔，所以不会热。真是太好了，强烈推荐给大家。
I've never heard of this thing I am excited I recently got an avocado pillow focusing on low toxins so oh those are good I've heard good things about those two yeah okay I I got to drain this pillow pillow talk is a great yeah you know you're in your in your into pillows too that's great yeah yeah great I'm gonna do it up great in my pillow it's this is not mr. pillar whatever that guy it's right the uh it's that guy that like he's like a no no no no no no purple pillow I'm gonna ask you I'm gonna ask yeah yeah you should be this uh next question do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to and worker in life and this is be curious I think I almost named it company curious I just think it's a really awesome there's one thing in life it's that in terms of getting things done in terms of understanding the world people your kids your family like you always just want to know more and question things outside yourself not feel like you have all the answers I think it's really important I love that final question
我从来没听说过这个东西，不过我很兴奋，因为我最近买了一个低毒的鳄梨枕头，我听说过这种枕头很不错。我得赶快试试这个枕头。聊枕头真有趣啊，看来你也喜欢枕头，这太好了。我准备好好享受我的枕头。不是那个叫“Mr. Pillar”的人做的枕头，是其他人的枕头，比如紫色枕头。我要问你一个问题：你有没有一个经常提醒自己的生活格言，无论是在工作中还是生活中？我觉得“保持好奇”是一个很棒的格言。我甚至考虑过给公司取名“Curious Company”。在生活中，关于完成任务、理解世界、了解他人和家人方面，保持好奇心真的很重要，要多问问题，不用觉得自己知道一切。我很欣赏这种态度。最后一个问题：
okay so speaking of startups you started a company called stamp stamped back in the day it got acquired by Yahoo I hear this story where you got just in Bieber on your app and that was a big deal and a big inflection in in the success of the after you just tell that story yeah it's kind of a wild story so I was just to like seen set a little bit 25 right after Google being an ICPM in New York with some Google friends building this company so very early on and it may be in a good way and no idea what I was doing but basically we decided that the the concept of stamp was to put your stamp on your favorite things get recommendations from friends and from people that you trust and so you think of like a Twitter feed but it's all stuff that people think is cool it's products products exactly it was possible it was good be on there I would totally stamp this billow and then you could discover it and you know one of the cold star problems was obviously like you want a group of people that are on it that are already using it that could have some like taste maker type folks and so we had a bunch of people that were like chefs and we had you know people who were like kind of literary folks and then we wanted to get a couple people that were more musicians artists and these kind of influential folks
好的，说到初创公司，你曾经创办了一家名为Stamp的公司。那时候，听说这家公司后来被雅虎收购了。我还听说过一个故事，贾斯汀·比伯（Justin Bieber）在你的应用上出现过，这对应用的成功是个重要的转折点。你能讲讲这个故事吗？
这真是一个很疯狂的故事。让我来简单设置一下背景：那时候我25岁刚从Google出来，作为一名互动广告客户经理（ICPM），在纽约和一些Google的朋友一起创业。所以基本上还在初期阶段，可能有好的方面，也有我完全不懂的地方。但基本上我们决定，Stamp的概念是让用户为他们喜欢的东西“盖章”，从朋友和他们信任的人那里获得推荐。你可以把它想象成一个关于别人觉得很酷的东西的Twitter动态，它主要是关于产品的。比如，如果我喜欢这个枕头，我会给它加盖章，你就可以发现它。
我们面临的一个挑战是获取初始用户群，因为你希望有一群已经在使用它的人，并且这些人还是有品位的，比如一些主流人物。所以我们有一群像厨师这样的人，还有一些比较有文学修养的人，我们也想吸引一些更多的音乐家、艺术家之类有影响力的人物。
and so my co-founder and I just basically got the contact of scooter brawn who's adjustments manager and we just sent in an email like hey we're gonna we're in New York like we're gonna be an LA tomorrow I think we said something I don't remember the all the details but it was something like tomorrow and you were not gonna be an LA tomorrow no no okay uh do you happen to be there and you you just like wrote back some one line thing like meet me at this hotel like for breakfast at something and we're like okay so we literally went immediately to the airport I just remember like just basically going straight to the airport flying to LA meeting with him we gave him the whole pitch we showed him the product and then he was like okay I think this would be super cool we can be helped be involved and maybe you can help you an advisor and we ended up going back and meeting with Justin and showing him the product and even filming some little clips with him was actually really funny and it was a really fun moment and he obviously he would he was using it to to stamp his favorite stuff and so people go like oh Justin's into this song or he's into this stuff and would post that and there's one of the ways that we got lots of people to try out and see what we were doing so that's a little extra scrappy moment in time but I think it embodies a good lesson just like do it now be scrappy be immediate like intense urgency usually wins over thinking about it for a long time and that's certainly a group to be true on that one incredible story thank you for sharing that so many lessons to take away.
所以，我和我的联合创始人当时拿到了Scooter Braun（贾斯汀·比伯的经纪人）的联系方式，然后我们就发了一封电子邮件给他，大概说：“嘿，我们目前人在纽约，明天会到洛杉矶。”我们那时候这样说，不过具体细节有点记不清了，反正是类似这样的话，但其实我们第二天并没有去洛杉矶。我们问他是否会在那里，他回复了一句话：“明早来这个酒店见我吃早餐吧。”于是，我们立刻赶往机场，飞往洛杉矶去见他。
我们向他展示了我们的项目，他觉得这个很酷，可以提供一些帮助，作为顾问。结果，我们还和贾斯汀见了面，向他展示了产品，并拍了一些小视频，那真是个有趣的时刻。他真的在用我们的产品来标记他喜欢的东西，这样大家就知道贾斯汀在听哪首歌或者对什么感兴趣。通过这种方式，我们吸引了很多人来试用和关注我们的产品。
这是一个特别机智的时刻，我认为这个故事传递了一个很好的教训：立即行动，保持灵活性，立即采取行动通常比长时间思考更有效率。这件事也确实证明了这一点。这个故事真是令人难以置信，感谢你的分享。这里面有很多值得学习的东西。
two final questions we're gonna focus fighting online if they want to reach out maybe learn more about what you're doing and how can listeners be useful to you yeah I think on X at RM Stein is probably the best single place and then to be helpful send me feedback DM me just mention me ping me let me know problems with Google products with with AI in general but also just anything as I said before you have to always listen to people understand their experiences so ping the ideas and feedback that's the best way to be helpful wow what a non-slot you're about to receive of feedback I'm the search experience yes Robbie Robbie why is this link second wise my sight not at the top I can only imagine the kind of stuff people complain about Robbie thank you so much for being here thank you it was great it was great bye everyone take care.
为了解释清楚这段对话，并使其易读，以下是翻译：
最后两个问题，我们将专注于在线互动。如果有人想联系了解更多关于你在做什么的事情，或者听众可以怎样为你提供帮助呢？
我认为在X平台上的 @RM Stein 可能是最好的联络方式。为了提供帮助，可以给我发送反馈，私信我或提到我，提醒我关于Google产品或人工智能的一些问题，或者任何其他问题。正如我之前所说，你必须始终倾听人们的意见和了解他们的经历，所以提出想法和反馈是最好的帮助方式。
哇，想象一下你将会收到大量反馈，尤其是在搜索体验方面。Robbie，Robbie，为什么这个链接是第二个，为什么我的网站不在顶部？我可以想象人们会抱怨什么。
Robbie，非常感谢你来到这里。谢谢，这真是太棒了。再见，大家保重。
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非常感谢您的收听！如果您觉得这期节目有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，这对于其他听众找到这个播客真的很有帮助。您可以在 Lenny's podcast.com 找到所有过去的节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。期待在下一集与您再见！