Introducing Possible: A New Podcast hosted by Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger
发布时间 2023-03-15 21:19:00 来源
Hi everyone, welcome to Gray Matter, the podcast from Gray Lock where we share stories from Cavani Builders and Business Leaders. I'm Heather Mack, head of editorial at Gray Lock.
大家好，欢迎收听Gray Matter，这是Gray Lock的播客，我们会与你分享来自Cavani Builders和商业领袖的故事。我是Heather Mack，负责Gray Lock的编辑工作。
Today, we have a special guest episode. Gray Lock General Partner Reid Hoffman has launched a new podcast called Possible, which looks at the future through a decidedly optimistic lens and what it will take to get there.
今天我们有一期特别嘉宾节目。Gray Lock的总合伙人Reid Hoffman推出了一档名为“Possible”的新播客，通过乐观的视角展望未来以及实现这个未来所需要的条件。
Hosted by Reid and Arya Finger, each episode features a visionary from a different field, such as media, climate science, criminal justice, and more. Also joining for each episode will be GPT-4, OpenAI's latest language model. GPT-4 will provide a companion story to serve as a jumping off point for each discussion, which will explore what could possibly go right if we as a society work together, deliver technology effectively.
每一集由Reid和Arya Finger主持，每位特邀嘉宾都来自不同领域，如媒体、气候科学和刑事司法等。此外，每一集还将有OpenAI最新的语言模型GPT-4加入。GPT-4将提供伴随故事，作为每次讨论的起点，以探讨如果我们作为一个社会共同努力、有效提供技术，可能会发生什么积极的变化。
Comedian, writer, and former Daily Show host Trevor Noah joined Reid and Arya for the inaugural episode, Possible. They discussed what a world would look like if every TV show could be perfectly tailored to each viewer's interest, knowledge level, and needs.
喜剧演员、作家和前《每日秀》主持人特雷弗·诺亚在首期节目〈可能〉中加入了里德和阿雅。他们讨论了如果每个电视节目都可以完美地针对每个观众的兴趣、知识水平和需求进行定制，这个世界会是什么样子。
You can subscribe to Possible wherever you get your podcasts, and you can follow links on the show notes to read the transcript as well as the AI-generated story for this episode. With that, I'll turn it over to Possible.
你可以在任何获取播客的地方订阅Possible, 并且你可以按照节目笔记中的链接阅读此集的文字记录和AI生成的故事。现在，我将把话题交给Possible。
"I think one of the most important discussions we should be having is around people, purpose, and the plans around what we're going to do when these technologies evolve, as opposed to thinking of the technologies as some sort of boogieman because the technology isn't."
我认为我们应该讨论的最重要的话题之一是关于人、目的以及在这些技术进化时我们打算做什么的计划，而不是把技术看作某种鬼怪，因为技术本身并不是问题。
Hi, I'm Reid Hoffman. And I'm Arya Finger. We want to know what happens if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way. We're speaking with visionaries in every field, from climate science to criminal justice and from entertainment to education. These conversations also feature another kind of guest, GPT-4, OpenAI's latest and most powerful language model to date. Each episode will have a companion story, which we've generated with GPT-4 to spark discussion. You can find these stories down in the show notes. In each episode, we seek out the brightest version of the future and learn what it'll take to get there. This is Possible.
嗨，我是里德·霍夫曼。我是雅利娅·芬格。我们想知道，如果未来一切都顺顺利利，人类会发生什么。我们正在与各个领域的远见者进行对话，从气候科学到刑事司法，从娱乐到教育。这些对话还有另一种客人，GPT-4，OpenAI迄今为止最新、最强大的语言模型。每一集都会有一个伴随故事，我们生成它与GPT-4一起激发讨论。您可以在节目注释中找到这些故事。在每一集中，我们寻找未来最美好的版本，并了解实现它所需的条件。这是可能的。
Welcome to the Possible Podcast. We are today going to be exploring a particular version of what's possible. What's possible in entertainment? What's possible in media? Although our illustrious guest is Trevinoa, who has hosted the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning Show The Daily Show from 2015 to 2022, he's the author of the New York Times Best Seller book, Born a Crime. He's been a comedian for over a decade. He speaks about seven languages and he calls New York City home, just like you, Arya. But with his breadth, I anticipate we're going everywhere.
欢迎收听Possible Podcast节目。今天我们将探索娱乐和媒体领域的可能性。我们的荣耀嘉宾是Trevinoa，他曾从2015年到2022年主持曾获得艾美奖和皮博迪奖的节目《每日秀》。他还是《纽约时报》畅销书《天生罪犯》的作者，已经成为了十年以上的喜剧演员。他能讲七国语言，和您一样，他也把纽约市当成家。但是，基于他的广泛涉猎，我预计我们将走遍各个领域。
As we always do on the Possible Podcast, we also share an AI story with Treffer about what the Daily Show could be reimagined with AI down the road. So get ready to hear him talk about whether he likes or dislikes the future that GPT-4 provides.
就像我们一直在《Possible Podcast》上做的那样，我们也与 Treffer 分享了一则关于《每日秀》如何在未来借助 AI 重新设计的故事。所以准备好听听他是否喜欢或不喜欢 GPT-4 所提供的未来。
I will also say, if you haven't read Born a Crime, I was gifted it for Christmas a few years ago and it's just so good. And you just hear his smarts and his brilliance on the Daily Show. It's no surprise when you hear about his background and everything that he's done. It'll be interesting to hear how he talks about grit and resilience and how do you build that for the future.
我也要说，如果你还没有读过《出生时的罪行》，我几年前的圣诞礼物就是这本书，真的很好。你可以在《每日秀》上听到他的聪明才智和卓越才华。当你了解他的背景和所做的一切时，这并不令人惊讶。听他讲述坚韧和韧性以及如何为未来建立这些特质将会很有趣。
So Treffer, I cannot tell you how excited I am to see you and have a little bit of a chance to turn the microphone, having gone on your shows before. It's so welcome to Possible.
Treffer，我无法告诉你我有多兴奋能见到你，并有一点点机会拿起麦克风，在你的节目中露面。这真的让我感觉非常受欢迎。
Thank you so much and good to see you again, good to chat to you again. I'm excited for the conversation.
非常感谢，并很高兴再次见到您，再次与您聊天感觉很好。我期待这次交谈。
So Treffer, I'm excited because Read and I have a little East Coast West Coast battle, me being a New Yorker and him being a West Coaster. So when you hosted the Grammys and you talked about LA, maybe not being the greatest city in the world, I'm just going to pretend that you think New York is actually the greatest city in the world. Oh, that's funny.
嘿，Treffer，我很兴奋，因为我和Read在东海岸和西海岸有个小的对决，我是纽约人，他是西海岸人。那么当你主持格莱美音乐奖，并且说洛杉矶可能不是世界上最伟大的城市时，我会假装你认为纽约实际上是世界上最伟大的城市。哦，这真有趣。
I love how everyone thinks it's in relation to their city. Yes. Yeah, I'm always intrigued by how everyone thinks their city is the best city. Here's the thing I always ask New Yorkers, I go, if New York is the greatest city in the world, why does everyone have to leave it every weekend if they get a chance?
我喜欢大家都认为这与他们所在的城市有关。是的，嗯，我总是很感兴趣，因为每个人都认为他们所在的城市是最棒的。我经常问纽约人一个问题，如果纽约是世界上最伟大的城市，为什么每个人都想要在周末有机会离开它呢？
Everyone's quick to say greatest city. I feel like everyone has to say greatest city for and then have the input that, that, that, that, you know, what is the specifier that makes it the greatest city for something? And then I'll agree with you. All right. So greatest city for non-stop New York. I'm in. All right. I'll take it.
每个人都很容易说出最伟大的城市。我感觉每个人都必须说出最伟大的城市，然后有一些评论，你知道的，是什么让它成为某种东西的最伟大城市的特定性质？然后我会同意你的观点。好的，最适合不停留的纽约这个城市，我同意。好的，我愿意接受这个观点。
I know actually from various contexts, you actually work on technological, technological projects. Yeah. I'm thinking from, you know, thinking about what it were, where it plays in the future and everything else. And you voiced the artificial intelligence system in Black Panther. Is the topic of AI something that you were following intensely and was there anything that you were thinking about when you were doing the, you know, kind of Wakanda forever, AI voice about what role AI will be playing in the kind of future?
我知道你实际上在各种上下文中都从事技术项目。是啊，我在想未来它会发挥什么作用以及其他一切。你为黑豹电影中的人工智能系统发声。你是否非常关注AI这个话题，而且在你做“Wakanda forever”时，你是否在思考AI将在未来扮演什么角色？
In many ways like when I, when I would talk to Ryan Kugler, the director of Black Panther, I would always ask him what he envisioned his AI to be because I think everyone has a different idea of what AI is, you know, and I've come to realize some of the conversations people have about AI are endearing but misguided often, you know. So some people will talk about AI, but really they're just talking about like simple machine learning.
很多时候，就像当我和《黑豹》导演瑞恩·库格勒聊天时一样，我总会问他他对自己的人工智能有什么设想，因为我认为每个人对人工智能的理解都是不同的，你知道的，我现在意识到，人们谈论人工智能的一些对话很温馨但常常误导，你知道的。所以有些人谈论人工智能，但实际上他们只是在谈论简单的机器学习。
People are talking about AI and they're just talking about processing a very simple command and, and I think AI the way I understand it is a computer model that's getting to a place where it understands or it, or it processes logic in a way that a human would be familiar with, you know.
人们正在谈论人工智能，但他们只是在谈论处理一个非常简单的指令而已，我认为人工智能是一种计算机模型，它可以理解并以一种人类熟悉的方式来处理逻辑，你知道的。
And so when I was thinking of that for the, you know, for the Black Panther role, it's an AI that is intelligent but at the same time still at the mercy of the people who have created it. So, you know, and I think that's what we would hope AI will become is a tool that we're using but then somehow interacts with us in a, in an almost personal way which, which will be interesting for us to try and, I think, grapple with because then we're going to ask ourselves questions of sentience and we're going to ask ourselves questions of, you know, you know, life and what isn't and what is personality and yeah, I, so, so, so definitely for that, for that role, it was interesting thinking of an AI that is for all intents and purposes, feeling but is still not.
所以当我考虑给黑豹角色配一个人工智能时，我希望它聪明又不失制造它的人的掌控。你知道，我们希望人工智能成为一种工具，与我们有一种近似个人的互动，这将是有趣的一点，虽然我们需要思考它是否有感知，探讨生命，人格等问题。所以，无疑地，对于那个角色来说，考虑一个似乎有感觉但实际上没有的人工智能，很有趣。
I do think that right now actually an AI were more, more, more like tools than with beings and that's the tool being question is one of the central ones at the beginning to kind of start in the dialogue, you know, it open AI, we have this GPD4 that will be coming out later, but I have access to it.
我觉得现在人工智能更像是工具而不是有生命的存在，而谈论的这个工具是对话开始时的一个中心问题，你知道，Open AI有GPD4即将推出，但我有使用权限。
I actually, in fact, generated some light bulb jokes because I personally have an affectation for light bulb jokes because I think there are a form of cultural haiku, they're very short form, you know, kind of lens into kind of like, you know, reflecting a bias or reflecting a, you know, a meme or something else.
实际上，我自己非常喜欢灯泡笑话，所以我创造了一些灯泡笑话。因为我认为它们是文化上的俳句形式，非常简短，可以反映一种偏见或者一种流行语，或者其他类似的东西。
We're going to read you a couple of the light bulb jokes about Trevor Noah, the GPD4 generated and we'd love you to reflect and what that means on GPD4 sense of humor, what you would improve, you know, that kind of stuff. So I'll kick it off and then we'll trade.
我们要给你们读几个关于Trevor Noah的灯泡笑话，这些都是由GPD4产生的。我们希望你们能够反思GPD4幽默感的意义以及需要改进的地方等等。我先开始，然后我们轮流发言。
How many Trevor Noah's does it take to change a light bulb? None. He just shines a smile and brightens the room.
需要几个特雷弗·诺亚来换灯泡？不需要，他只需微笑，照亮整个房间。
All right, we started with the easy ones. We started with the kind ones. Okay. Wow, that's that's chat GPT my mom. I like that. Exactly. It'll get a little bit yes, it's official mom tellage.
好的，我们从容易的开始。我们从善良的开始。好的。哇，那是那是聊天机器人GPT我的妈妈。我喜欢那个。没错。它会有点变得更好，是的，这是官方的“母亲语”。
Yeah, the prompt was in the style of Trevor Noah's mom give us a yes, that's what that seems like. All right.
对的，提示风格就像是Trevor Noah的妈妈让我们回答“是的”，这就是它的意思。好的。
So the next one, how many Trevor Noah's does it take to change a light bulb? One, but he has to do it in six different accents and explain the cultural context of each one.
下一题，需要多少个Trevor Noah才能换掉一盏灯泡？一个就够了，但他必须用六种不同的口音来完成，并解释每种口音的文化背景。
Oh, I like that. Okay. I like that. And you can tell GPD4 does have some knowledge of you and we, when we asked these questions. So now we're getting into a little bit more of like the knowledge of you on the daily show. Okay.
哦，我喜欢那个。好的，我喜欢那个。你可以看出GPD4对我们和你有一些了解，当我们问这些问题时。现在我们正在更深入地了解每日节目中你的了解。好的。
How many Trevor Noah's does it take to change a light bulb? Two, one to change it and one to roast Donald Trump for not knowing how to do it.
需要几个特雷弗·诺亚来换灯泡呢？两个，一个换灯泡，一个为唐纳德·特朗普不会换灯泡而猛批他。
Oh, okay. All right. So that jokes a little simple, but I'll take it. Yes. No intelligence there. All right.
哦，好的。没问题。那个笑话有点简单，但我还是接受了。是的，没有智力含量。行。
Joke number four. How many Trevor Noah's does it take to change a light bulb? One, but he has to wait for John Stewart to retire first. That's funny. Yes. That's funny.
第四个笑话。需要多少个特雷弗·诺亚来换灯泡？一个，但他得等约翰·斯图尔特退休。很有趣。是的。真的很有趣。
See, that's a great joke. That's actually a very nice light bulb joke. I'm good. We have similar judgments.
你瞧，那个笑话真的很棒，这是一个非常好的灯泡笑话。我很好，我们的判断很相似。
So what do you think about GPD4 and in this little microcosm? Does it have a sense of humor? So I will start with the second question first.
你认为GPD4和这个小世界怎么样呢？它有幽默感吗？那我先回答第二个问题。
Does it have a sense of humor? I don't know the answer to that question and I don't think any of us knows the answer to that question.
它有幽默感吗？我不知道那个问题的答案，我认为我们中没有人知道那个问题的答案。
Does it understand what a sense of humor may be? I think the answer is yes. It is able to learn how we use language to create what we call a sense of humor. So understanding is maybe that's one of the most difficult questions to ask about AI I find because we don't know what understanding even is.
它是否能理解什么是幽默感？我认为答案是肯定的。它可以学习我们如何使用语言来产生所谓的幽默感。所以说理解可能是关于人工智能最难的问题之一，因为我们甚至不知道什么是理解。
You know, and I know you've done a lot of work in this read, but one of the most fascinating stories in AI I came across was, so you know this, I've been working with Microsoft for years.
你知道，我知道你在这个领域做了很多工作，但是我发现人工智能领域中最迷人的故事之一是，你知道的，我已经和微软合作多年了。
I've been lucky enough to consult with them and it started in hardware and then we work in philanthropy together and then spilled over into AI and everything else. So I'd go to Redmond and I'd work at the campus and I'd travel around the world with Brad Smith and sometimes we'd be at events with Satya and Panna and the team out there.
我很幸运能与他们进行咨询。一开始是在硬件方面合作，后来我们一起从事慈善事业，然后又涉及到人工智能和其他方面。所以我会去 Redmond 总部工作，与 Brad Smith 一起周游世界，有时与 Satya、Panna 和团队一起参加活动。
And one of the more fascinating stories I came across involving AI was there was a model that they were trying to train and this model had an almost perfect track record picking between pictures of men and women, men and women, it was really simple in what it was trying to do.
我遇到的一则非常有趣的 AI 故事是，他们试图训练一个模型，这个模型几乎完美地分辨男女的照片，非常简单直接。
What it failed at consistently was picking out black women from the men and women sample if it was black people and try as they try as they may they they could not get this AI to get it right and they they kept on loading more images, more images, more images, training, a training, a training at more images, they're like, is it a bias? Is it this? What is happening? What is happening?
这个AI总是无法准确地从男女样本中挑选出黑人女性。尽管他们尝试了很多次，他们仍然无法使这个AI正确识别黑人女性，并不断加载更多图像，进行更多的训练和培训，他们开始怀疑这是偏见造成的，他们不停地问自己：“发生了什么？为什么会这样？”
It kept on mislabeling black women as men. And this is one of the most fascinating stories of what what they did essentially was they sent the AI to Africa. I think it was to one of the centers in Kenya that that that Microsoft has and they I mean it sounds like a really like ludicrous story when you go like, we sent the AI to Africa to learn.
它不断地错误地把黑人女性标记为男性。这是最迷人的故事之一，他们的做法基本上是发送AI到非洲。我认为是到肯尼亚的一个微软中心，听起来像一个荒谬的故事，你会说：我们把AI送到非洲去学习。
And essentially what they did was they started training the model out there and over time the model a got exponentially faster at understanding the difference between black men and black women. But the reason was most interesting.
实际上，他们开始在外面训练模型，随着时间的推移，模型在理解黑人男性和黑人女性之间的差异方面变得指数级更快。但原因最有趣。
They realized that the AI never knew what a man or a woman was. All it had drawn was a correlation between people who were makeup and people who don't wear makeup. And it had decided that that was man and that was woman.
他们意识到人工智能根本不知道什么是男人或女人，它所画的只是戴妆和不戴妆的人之间的相关性。然后它决定这是男性和女性。
And so the programmers and everyone using the AI had assumed that the AI understood what a man was and what a woman was and didn't understand why it didn't understand it. And only came to realize when it went to Africa that the AI was using makeup and because black people and black women in particular have been underserved in the makeup industry, they don't wear as much makeup.
于是程序员以及使用人工智能的人都认为人工智能理解男人和女人是什么，并且不明白为什么它不明白。只有当它去到非洲时，才意识到人工智能正在使用化妆品，并因为黑人，尤其是黑女性在化妆品行业中得到的服务不足，所以他们不会戴太多化妆品。
And so they generally don't have makeup on in pictures and they don't have makeup that's prominent. And so the AI never knew it never understood man or woman.
所以，他们通常在照片中不化妆，也没有突出的化妆品。所以，人工智能从未知道，从未理解男人或女人。
It just went ah red lips blush on cheeks blue eyeshadow woman. And that was it.
她只是涂了红唇、脸颊微红和蓝色眼影，就这样了。
And so I think whenever we have these conversations about that about understanding, I think we are still at the very basic stages of understanding what understanding even is and then trying to draw all those those correlations between all the different data points of what a thing is thinking or not thinking or is it just inferring from an idea? You know what I mean?
因此，我认为每次我们讨论关于理解的话题时，我们还处于理解什么是理解的非常基础的阶段，然后试图将所有不同数据点之间的所有相关性联系起来，以了解一个事物是否在思考或是否仅仅是从一个想法中推断出来的。您知道我的意思吗？
Yeah, 100%. One of the things that I think about this great kind of 2023 being this year of large language models and in acceleration, a variety of AI things as we're now actually going to get much more sophisticated.
是的，完全是的。我认为，2023年将是大型语言模型和人工智能技术加速发展的一年，我们将变得更加高级。
We kind of apply this human metaphor, understand speaks has a sense of humor and we kind of do it poorly when we get to animals because we presume that they're less intelligent because they don't really have that same model and yet they do have a model of the world and they do have some feelings and all the rest.
我们使用这种人类隐喻的方式，理解人类的幽默感，当我们转到动物时，我们通常做得不太好，因为我们认为它们不如人类聪明，因为它们没有同样的模式，但它们确实有一个世界模式，也有一些情感和其他东西。
And we do it really crazily when it gets to like my car, you know, it's feeling bad today. You know, or or something like that. Now we have to be much more sophisticated and understand what understanding is that it isn't just the question of, you know, like, well, does it understand the way Trevor does or the way Aria does or the way Reed does?
当谈论到我的汽车出了问题时，我们会变得非常疯狂。你知道的，我们会像真的很疯狂地对待它那样。但现在我们必须更加成熟，明白理解并不仅仅是像Trevor、Aria或Reed那样，而是更加深刻的理解。
It's like, okay, what is that notion of understanding and how does it apply here and how does it apply here? Right.
就像是，你知道，理解的概念是什么、在这里它如何应用、以及在这里如何应用？对的。
I completely agree. Yeah. So answer the second question you had, what do I think of chat GPT, you know, and GPT four, which I've tested a little bit, it's one of the biggest leaps in technology and in the evolution of how we do things that we have experienced in decades.
我完全同意。是的。那么回答你第二个问题，我对聊天GPT和我试过一点的GPT四是怎么看的，它是技术和我们做事情方式演进的最大飞跃之一，几十年来我们经历过的。
I always think back to major moments in time. What was it like when the steam engine was created? What was it like when, you know, the telephone was created? What was it like all these moments where all of a sudden you were able to do in ways that you never imagined possible? That's where we are with chat GPT and I think in the same way I'm cautious, you know, I try and I try and tell people to be cautious about thinking about how bad it can be.
我总是回想起重要的历史时刻。蒸汽机被创造时会是什么感觉？你知道，电话被创造时会是什么感觉？在这些时刻，你突然间可以做一些以前从未想过的事情，这会是什么感觉呢？现在，我们正在使用聊天GPT技术，我认为我们应该谨慎对待，就像我谨慎一样，而且我会告诉人们要谨慎思考它可能会带来的负面影响。
I'm also cautious to think about how good it can be. I go, we genuinely don't know. It could be one of the biggest leaps forward in helping us understand how thinking even works in a strange way. From what I've seen, like it's problem solving, you've seen it solve problems that haven't even existed. It's ability to try and understand logic using, you know, natural language. It's a brilliant, brilliant tool.
我也谨慎地思考它有多好。我去的时候，我们真的不知道。它可能是帮助我们理解思维如何以奇特的方式工作的最大飞跃之一。从我看到的情况来看，像解决问题一样，你已经看到它解决了甚至不存在的问题。它有能力尝试使用自然语言来理解逻辑。它是一个非常、非常出色的工具。
Well, to your point, it's limited on the data that it's trained on. Yeah. And I do appreciate, I feel like right now in the AI discussion, it's like you either have people on Twitter saying that the robots are coming for us or you have people saying it's amazing. Don't worry. You know, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
嗯，针对你的观点，它的训练数据相对有限。是啊。同时，我很感激现在的AI讨论，就好像要么有人在Twitter上说机器人来攻打我们了，要么就有人说这很神奇，不用担心。你知道的，它们不是你要找的那些机器人。
And so I loved your, you know, woman versus man, Microsoft story, they had to go retrain the data. Do you see that as an unhopeful story because, you know, this is often created by white men. And so there's limitations, whether it's bias, you know, anti-women bias, etc. Or do you see that as a hopeful story where actually once we find out what's wrong, we can sort of fix the model. Like how do you see that in the evolution of AI?
所以我非常喜欢你们谈到男女之间的故事，以及微软公司不得不重新训练数据的事情。你觉得这是一个令人沮丧的故事吗？因为这种情况通常由白人男性创造，无论是因为偏见还是反对女性。或者你认为这是一个希望的故事，在我们发现问题后，我们可以修正模型。你如何看待AI的进化？
I'm eternally an optimist in this space. And, you know, you can probably play this recording back when the earth is burning and the robots put us into prisons. But for me, it's a hopeful story because let me ask you this, if you have an AI model that you realize is biased, you are able to find and correct that bias in a time that is almost impossible to recreate in a human being.
在这个领域我一直都是个乐观主义者。你知道的，即使当地球正在燃烧，机器人把我们关进监狱时，你也可以回放这个录音。但对我而言，这是一个充满希望的故事。因为，假设你有一个 AI 模型，你意识到它存在偏见，那么你能够在几乎不可能在人类身上重现的时间内找到并纠正这种偏见。
You know, so I think about how biased the world is that we live in and how impossible it is. It's almost impossible to change those biases that people hold. So if you say judges are sentencing people from poorer backgrounds and, you know, people of color and black people are getting higher sentencing from a judge, how do you now go and undo that? And so that's why people talk about dismantling a system and recreating a new one, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
你知道，我在思考我们生活的世界有多么偏见和不可能改变。人们持有的这些偏见几乎是不可能改变的。所以如果你说法官判处穷人和有色人种以及黑人的刑期更长，你又如何去改变这一现状呢？因此，人们谈论推翻现有体制并重新建立一个新的体制，等等，等等。
But I argue in the world of AI and in these models, you can actually create a system where you're constantly refining it and it does not have any ego attached to its decisions all the way processes information. And so I think for me, that's more hopeful. I think the ability to change your mind is something that most human beings struggle with. Myself included.
但我认为在人工智能和这些模型的世界里，你实际上可以创建一个系统, 在这个系统中你不断地精炼，它不会把自己决定的标准与自我关联起来。它一直在加工信息。因此，我认为，这对我来说更具有希望性。我认为，改变自己的想法是大多数人类很难做到的事情，我自己也是这样。
Like I always ask myself the question, I go, what if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong right now, what if I'm wrong? You know, that's, I'm always playing that in my head because I always have to think about the possibility that I could be wrong because everything I learned in life is because I was wrong. Somebody had to teach me something else. And, and with AI, I don't think we have that limitation, you know, yes, we have to be aware. But the fact that we're having the conversations means we're at least aware and it means when we discover it, just like we do with every other technology, you know, you discover, oh, this car, you know, the brakes, well, yeah, they have a recall and they go like, all right, let's fix the brakes.
就像我总是问自己这个问题一样，我会想，如果我错了怎么办？如果我现在错了，怎么办？因为我总是需要考虑到我可能错了的可能性，因为我所学到的一切都是因为我错了。有人不得不教我别的东西。而且，有了人工智能，我认为我们没有这个限制，你知道，是的，我们必须意识到。但我们正在进行对话，这意味着我们至少已经意识到了。这意味着当我们发现它时，就像我们对待每一种其他技术一样，你知道，你发现，哦，这辆车，你知道，刹车，是的，他们进行了召回，他们说，好吧，让我们修理刹车。
Now you have over the air updates gone are the days of getting a cartridge from Nintendo and that's the game and it's done. Now you get a game and in the first week, you've got your first patch on the first day often. I think that's hopeful because, um, because you would want a system that is constantly changeable and a system where you're constantly trying to, you know, you try to resolve all of those, those bugs along the way.
现在有空中更新了，过去从任天堂拿一个游戏卡带然后就没办法修改了的岁月已经过去了。现在，你可以得到一个游戏，并且在第一周的第一天，你通常就可以得到第一个补丁。我认为这很有希望，因为你希望一个系统不断变化，一个系统在不断地试图解决所有那些小错误。
I mean, you hit on an issue I cared deeply about and if we could just like send patches to the criminal justice system and make it not just for the military, exactly. That's what we, that's what we should be doing. A thousand percent.
我是说，你挑出了我非常关心的问题，如果我们能像为军队一样向刑事司法系统发送补丁并使之更好，这将非常棒。这就是我们应该做的事情，1000%支持。
One of, I watched your interview with Miramarati on the Daily Show and, um, you know, one of the things that I, you know, because she shares a lot of beliefs we work together on the open AI content. She shares a, you know, kind of this, this view of actually, in fact, of amplification and she was talking about that with you with Dolly and other things.
我看了你在《每日秀》上和Miramarati的采访，呃，你知道的，其中一件事情是，因为她与我们一起共事于开放AI内容，她分享了很多信仰。她分享了一种扩大的观点，并与你和Dolly以及其他事情谈论了这个问题。
Um, I didn't quite get from the show how it sat with you. Like do you think, um, AI is going to be a really useful tool in augmenting writers and artists? Uh, will there be some replacement? You know, how, how, when you were having that dialogue, you were doing a very good job of, as you do, of bringing her out, but I was curious about what your reflections within your industry are of what the next, you know, year and three years of this will look like in terms of producing, uh, perspective, you know, news, entertainments.
嗯，我从这个节目中不太理解你对它的看法。你认为，嗯，AI将会成为提升作家和艺术家的一个非常有用的工具吗？会有一些替代吗？你知道，在你们的对话中，你很擅长引导她表达，但我还是很好奇你对于在未来一年和三年内，在制作，展示，娱乐方面会有什么新的想法和透视的反思，这在你的行业中会是什么样子。
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So, so here's the, here's the, the, the biggest thing I've enjoyed, but in a, in a, in a, in like a cramajony kind of way in this conversation.
对的。对的。对的。是的。所以，我在这次谈话中最享受的事情，是在一种混杂的方式中体验到的。
I found it particularly interesting that everybody says the phrase, or not everybody, but a lot of people will use the phrase, AI is going to replace these jobs. These jobs are going to be taken away by AI. It is going to, unlike people, I think everybody needs to take a step back and realize, you're, you're not afraid of AI. You're afraid of the companies and the employers who are going to look for any excuse to get rid of somebody and replace that person with either AI or with one person who can do multiple jobs.
我觉得特别有趣的是，很多人都会说"AI将会取代这些工作"这句话。这些工作将被AI取代。与人不同，AI也许会取代这些工作。我认为每个人都需要退一步并意识到，你害怕的不是AI，而是那些会寻找任何借口来解雇一个人并用AI或一个人来代替他的公司和雇主。
You know, in the same way, you know, it took what 20 odd people to, you know, farm a piece of land, then the tractor was invented and then those 20 people immediately became obsolete. And one person was, was, was pulling this, was driving this tractor that was pulling the plow. I think one of the, one of the most important discussions we should be having is around people, purpose and the plans around what we're going to do when these technologies evolve as opposed to thinking of the technologies as some sort of boogie man because the technology isn't. The boogie man is capitalism.
你知道，在过去，要20多个人才能耕田，然后发明了拖拉机，那些20个人立刻就变得过时了。现在只需要一个人来驾驶这个拖拉机拉着犁。我认为我们应该讨论的最重要的问题之一是人、目标和计划，针对当这些技术发展时我们将要做什么，而不是把技术看做是某种妖怪，因为技术本身并非如此。妖怪是资本主义。
That's the truth. So you have to figure out how you manage in a world where some people's purpose may change and be moved around. And I think to be honest, you see a lot of classes in this conversation because when these conversations center around manufacturing jobs or mining, you'll see a lot of people saying like, look, you've got to re-skill. You've got to re-tool. That's what happens. At the end of the day, you know, it's like mining won't be around forever. You've got to learn about green energy. That's just life. And then now AI comes and it's threatening more white collar jobs and all of a sudden those same people are like, you, you can't just have this technology that's, there are writers in the, in Hollywood that are going to be out of jobs. There are, there are journalists that are, is it going to write articles for them? We can't just allow this. And it's like, oh, now, first of all, you see what it's like to have a technology that may replace you and you understand how callous a lot of your comments have been.
这就是事实。所以你必须想办法在这个世界上如何应对有些人的目标可能会改变和被转移。说实话，当这些谈话集中于制造业或采矿时，你会看到很多不同阶层的人会说，你必须重新学习技能，你必须重新装备自己。就是这样。毕竟，矿业业不会永远存在。你必须学习绿色能源。这就是生活。然后现在AI威胁到更多的白领工作，同样的人突然说，你不能仅仅拥有这项技术，会有好莱坞的作家无法获得工作，会有记者无法为他们撰写文章。我们不能允许这种情况发生。现在你看到拥有一项可能取代你的技术是什么感受了，你明白了你的很多评论是多么无情。
But also, I think it gets everybody, it should push everybody to the real conversation which is what are we trying to do? One of the most wonderful quotes I ever heard was, I think it was Sweden's, either was like Minister of Finance or somebody high up in Sweden's government. And he said, in Sweden, they don't care about protecting jobs. They care about protecting workers. The people aren't the jobs. And so in Sweden, what they say is, hey, we're just going to make sure that you are always fine. Your job can go away and your job can disappear, but you don't disappear with it.
我认为，这也应该促使每个人进行真实的对话，问问自己我们究竟在尝试什么？我听过最美妙的引语之一是来自瑞典的一个财政部长或者其他高级官员。他说，在瑞典，人们并不关心保护岗位，而是关心保护工人。人们并不等同于工作。因此，在瑞典，他们说，我们只是要确保你的生活一直过得好。你的工作可能会消失，但你不会和它一起消失。
And I think, I think a lot of the fear that we're experiencing, especially in America, is in and around the fact that so many people's livelihoods are tied to their jobs. So if you don't have a job, you don't have healthcare. If you don't have a job, you, you, you don't have a credit report. If you don't have a job, you don't have access to, if you don't have a job, you don't have a job. If you don't have a job, sometimes you don't even exist. Like, what do you do is more important than who you are?
我认为，我认为很多人的恐惧，特别是在美国，是因为很多人的生计都与他们的工作相关。所以如果你没有工作，你就没有医疗保险。如果你没有工作，你就没有信用报告。如果你没有工作，你就没有接触到......如果你没有工作，有时甚至你就不存在了。好像你做什么比你是谁更重要？
And so I think in and around AI, the reason I'm an optimist is because I go, we can create this tool, but it is forcing us to have a larger conversation around what is the job, what isn't the job. So you know, when you ask me what I think of it, I think it's a fantastic tool. You know, it's the same way I remember when Windows 3.1 launched in my life. I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever experienced ever. I don't want to type DIR slash page. I'm done with that. You know what I mean? I don't want to be going through every single file and searching for a folder and typing every command prompt out there. I don't want to do that. The graphical user interface changed everything.
因此，在人工智能领域，我是一个乐观主义者，因为我认为我们可以创造这个工具，但这迫使我们围绕什么是工作，什么不是工作进行更大的讨论。所以，你知道，当你问我对它的看法时，我认为这是一个很棒的工具。你知道，就像我记得当 Windows 3.1 在我的生活中推出时。我觉得这是我经历过的最伟大的事情。我不想打 DIR 线 page。我不想再这样做了。你知道我说的是什么吧？我不想去查找每一个文件和查找一个文件夹并且输入每一个命令提示符。我不想这样做。图形用户界面改变了一切。
And I think this is in many ways different type of graphical user interface where it's going to enable us to either program faster or to write quicker or to summarize information in a way that we never have before. And in doing that, we can do more.
我认为这种图形化用户界面在许多方面都不同，它将使我们能够更快地编程或更快地写作，或以一种前所未有的方式概括信息。通过这样做，我们能够做更多的事情。
The question is, how do we protect people from the inevitable conclusion of capitalism, which is a company is going to try to make as much profit as possible because of a thing called quarterly earnings, which I hate.
问题是，我们该如何保护人们免受资本主义的必然结论所带来的影响，即由于被称为季度收益的东西，公司将努力尽可能地获利，而我对此表示憎恶。
By the way, this isn't really our subject here and we will get to a funny GPT-4 thing as part of it. But I do think it's important for me to say, when I was an undergraduate, I was kind of like very opposed to the kind of philosophy of capitalism.
顺便说一句，这其实不是我们的主题，我们将在其中谈到有趣的GPT-4的事情。但我认为很重要的是，当我还是本科生的时候，我非常反对资本主义哲学。
I would say it's a great technology and a bad philosophy, a little bit of the meaning of life. I've now kind of come to the view that it's kind of like, look, what we've been doing is the technologies we've been modifying at all kinds of ways. And a lot of where we've gotten to, and among some circles, it's fashionable to be critical of capitalism is like, well, actually a lot of the progress we've made since the middle ages in terms of manufacturing and much of all comes through capitalism and does come through mechanisms like quarterly profits, which has some negative side effects too and can be, but we've also gotten a tremendous amount out of it.
我认为这是一项伟大的技术，但是哲学方面不太好，它涉及到人生的意义。现在我认为，我们所做的就像是在各种方面改进技术。在某些圈子里，批评资本主义很时尚，但事实上，自中世纪以来我们在制造业和很多方面所取得的进步，很大程度上得益于资本主义和季度利润等机制，虽然它们也有一些负面影响，但我们也从中获得了很多利益。
So I tend to be the, how do we mod it? Or if someone has a better idea than it, entirely, like how do we have a new idea? But it's like, we've gotten a lot of good things about it. So I tend to be a modified capitalism person.
所以我倾向于，我们该如何进行修改呢？或者如果有人有比此更好的想法，比如我们该如何提出新的想法？但是，我们已经得到了很多好的东西。所以我倾向于成为一个修改过的资本主义者。
Oh yeah, but I think if you look at it, there's no denying it comes with, many things come with good, but like I learned working with my mom in the garden, which I hated, every single plant given the opportunity will try to destroy every other plant in its ecosystem if it's not meant to be part of it.
哦，没错，但是我觉得如果你仔细看，很显然它带来了很多好处；但就像我在花园里和我妈妈一起干活时发现的，每一株植物都会试图摧毁其所处生态系统中不应存在的其他植物，即使这是我讨厌的事情。
And I think we shouldn't take that for granted in terms of like how, to your point, capitalism has been designed in the way we think of it now. Like what is it actually trying to do? Everything is good, but everything taken into an extreme will have disastrous effects. You know, so fasting is good for you. Fasting perpetually is starvation. You know, so drinking is good for you. Drinking perpetually is drowning. I think the same thing goes for this.
我想我们不应该把这想当然，就像你说的，资本主义现在的设计方式。我们应该思考它真正想做什么。每件事情都有它的好处，但是如果过分了，会带来灾难性的影响。比如说，断食对健康有好处，但是长期禁食就是饥饿。喝酒也对身体好，但是长期饮酒就会淹死。我认为这同样适用于此。
We have to ask ourselves the question, if we're going to exist in a society where people's livelihoods, literally their livelihoods are dependent on a thing called job, what happens if job no longer exists and what if job is replaced by AI or robot or machine or anything?
我们必须自问这个问题，如果我们生存在一个人们生计完全依赖于工作这样一件事的社会中，如果工作不再存在，或者被AI、机器人或任何什么代替，会发生什么？
And so I think when we look at AI, I think we will yield better results if people aren't spending half their energy worried that this thing is coming to get them and can spend all of their energy working on using it for what it can be used for. And so I think that's what we need to be thinking about now with AI is, okay, how does this make people's jobs as opposed to take people's jobs?
因此，我认为当我们看待人工智能时，如果人们不用耗费一半的精力担心这个东西会来抓他们，而是把所有的精力都用在利用它能做的事情上，我们就会得到更好的结果。因此，我认为现在我们需要思考的是，人工智能如何能够让人们的工作更好，而不是取代人们的工作。
And then for me, which is my passion, I go to, well, maybe it means it's not an eight-hour workday anymore. It's a four-hour workday, you know? And then I mean, I know I'm delusional in saying that because it'll never happen, but that's honestly my dream is that people will use these tools and then we just have more time in life.
然后对我来说，我的激情是去做，好吧，也许意味着它不再是一个八小时的工作日了。你知道吗？然后我是说，我知道我在说谎因为这永远不会发生，但这是我的梦想，人们会使用这些工具，然后我们在生活中有更多的时间。
Trevor, let's pull that thread for a moment. So this is your dream, like one of your big ideas.
特雷弗，我们来稍微探讨一下这个想法吧。这是你的梦想，就像你的某个大想法一样。
Genuinely. Yeah. So, what is it like to be a person who's been working for us today, paint the picture in 20 years?
真的嗎？那麼，像一個今天在我們這裡工作的人，在 20 年後的樣子是怎樣呢？請描述一下。
Think about it, Arya, what are we trying to do? You know, everyone thinks the week. So during the pandemic, I realized how many of our ideas are actually just constructs that we've created.
想一想，Arya，我们在尝试做什么？你知道，每个人都认为这是一周。因此，在疫情期间，我意识到我们的许多想法实际上只是我们创造出来的构想。
Monday through Friday. Yeah, the week is so confident. We're so confident that a weekend is two days and then you work for five. Everyone goes like, this makes complete sense.
是的，这个星期看起来很自信，就像周一到周五理所应当一样，周末只有两天，接着你又要工作五天。每个人都觉得这很有道理。
Totally. But then you go, then you just read a little bit and you realize, oh, wait, the weekend was invented because labor unions at some point said it is not sustainable to work every single day of the week. And they had to force, it's a force manufacturing plants and factories to give workers time off. And then they imagine that the weekend was invented as we know it.
但是当你开始阅读，你会发现，哦，等等，周末是因为工会曾经表示每周工作七天是不可持续的，他们不得不强迫制造厂和工厂给予工人休息时间。然后他们想象出了我们现在所知道的周末。
And so when you see these discussions now with the pandemic, people being like, should we do a four day work week? And what do they find? Productivity doesn't actually drop. And you're like, huh? And I will challenge anyone, anyone listening to this podcast right now.
所以，现在在疫情时期，人们开始讨论四天工作制，但他们会发现什么？生产力实际上并没有下降。这让你感到惊讶吗？我很愿意对此挑战任何人，无论是听这个播客的任何人。
Tell me how much time you spend in an office where you're not working. Just be honest. But the time you walk in, to the time you turn on your computer, then you walk over to the coffee machine and then you waste time. Then you chat to people, you catch up with them and with their, about their lives, talk about something. Then you talk about scheduling and meeting. You don't need to schedule the meeting. You get to the meeting. You talk about what your kid did at school and a funny story. They chat about something that happened at the Teachers Association. You talk about your gripes in the neighborhood.
告诉我你在不工作的办公室里花了多少时间。只要诚实就好了。从你走进去的时间，到你打开电脑的时间，然后你走到咖啡机前再浪费一些时间。然后你和人聊天，了解他们的生活，谈论一些事情。接着你谈论日程安排和会议。你不需要安排会议。你参加会议。你们谈论孩子在学校做的事情和一个有趣的故事。他们聊聊发生在教师协会的事情。你谈论你在社区的抱怨。
The trash didn't get picked up. You have a bit of a meeting. Then you schedule another meet. No one's working at work. We're all lying. No one has a working at work. Most people are not working at work, especially in office jobs. And so I think if we have an honest conversation, we can get to a place where we go, you know it. We don't all need to be in work for as long as we think we do.
"垃圾没被清走了。你有个会稍微会耽误一下。然后你会安排另一个会议。没有人在工作。我们都在假装。没有人在这儿工作起来。大部分人都不在工作，特别是在办公室工作的人。所以我认为如果我们能够坦诚地交流，我们就可以达成这样一个共识：我们并不需要像我们想象的那样长时间地待在工作中。"
And I almost feel like we get out of the world of saying people are paid for their time, but they're paid for their productivity in a larger sense. And then you go like, yeah, how many hours a week do you work? It depends on how long it takes for me to get my job done. And with AI, it doesn't take that long. And I'm an AI technician, you know? And that's what it should be.
我觉得我们已经开始摆脱 “按时间支付薪水”的思维模式，而是更加着眼于员工的生产力。如果有人问你一周工作多少小时，你可以回答：“取决于我完成工作所需的时间。”而有了AI技术，完成工作所需的时间并不长。我是一名AI技术员，这就是应有的。
I mean, I love it about office workers because I'm always like, take any office worker and let them be a teacher for just one week where they actually have to work all day long. And they'll be like, where was my coffee break? Yes, exactly. I'm with you.
我的意思是，我喜欢研究白领，因为我总是认为，让任何一个白领在实际工作一周后去当老师，让他们全天工作，他们会像说：“我的咖啡时间去哪儿了？”没错，完全同意你的看法。
To transition a little bit, you know, we talked about how AI could be a tool for the future of the entertainment industry. We shared with you a story that was written by GPT-4. And so if you hate it, I didn't write it. That's fine. You're only hurting GPT-4's feelings. And it posited a future where there was the AI, Lee show.
嗯，稍微转换一下话题，你知道我们之前讨论了 AI 在娱乐产业中的未来可能会成为一个什么样的工具。我们与你分享了由 GPT-4 写成的一篇故事。如果你不喜欢，那没关系，这不是我写的。你只会伤害到 GPT-4 的感情。这篇故事描绘了一个未来，有一个名叫 AI Lee 的节目。
Okay. So, in 2033 where the AI was customizing the show to who was watching. If the person was 70, it was explaining what TikTok was. If the person was 40, it was talking to them about LeBron just, you know, getting over the scoring title. Like, what do you think about this story or how would you use AI in the next, you know, 5, 10 years to create a better entertainment show, to create a better media show, to create something in your industry?
好的。那么，在2033年，人工智能会根据观众的不同个性化裁剪节目。如果是70岁的人，AI会解释什么是TikTok。如果是40岁的人，就会与他们谈论勒布朗是否刚刚获得得分王头衔。你对这个故事有什么想法或者你会如何在接下来的5到10年使用人工智能来创造更好的娱乐节目，创造更好的媒体节目，创造您所在行业的新产品？
So there were two parts of the story that I really enjoyed. The idea of creating a show for every individual person that catered to them is I think one of the most exciting advances in technology and in entertainment we could possibly pursue because while it is normal for us to like learn together, grow together, go together, et cetera, you can't deny that means a lot of people get left behind because of a standardized anything.
所以有两个部分的故事是我真的很喜欢的。我认为为每个个人创建一场迎合他们的表演的思想是技术和娱乐领域中最令人兴奋的进步之一，因为虽然我们通常会一起学习、成长、共同前行等等，但你不能否认这意味着许多人因为任何标准化的事物而落后。
So, imagine if you had a news show that catered to your level of knowledge about the subject matter and knew how to filter out what you already know and what you should know and what you don't know and what you need to know, that would be amazing. I can't, I think that would be phenomenal.
那么，想象一下，如果你有一个新闻节目，它针对你对主题的了解水平，并知道如何过滤出你已经知道的和你应该知道的以及你不知道的和你需要了解的内容，那将是非常棒的。我认为那将是非凡的。
The one downside though is I think we should never take for granted what we lose in society, the more niche and individualized our experiences become. I think it's important for us to remember how much being a part of a society comes from having a shared experience of what reality is. That's why I'm a big fan of cultural touchstone moments.
不过，我认为我们永远不应该轻视在社会中丧失的东西，特别是当我们的经历变得更为独特和个性化时。我认为我们要记住，作为社会的一部分，相互分享现实经验的重要性。这就是为什么我是文化象征时刻的忠实支持者的原因。
I love big events like the World Cup, the Super Bowl. Yeah, like any of these things that everybody is watching, like a space, like a moon launch, a moon landing, all of these big moments because what they do is they just make everybody agree on reality for a moment. Where were you the moment that's such a powerful tool that we take for granted and that we're losing in a world that becomes more individualized.
我喜欢像世界杯、超级碗这样的大型活动。嗯，就像所有人都在观看的这些东西，比如太空探索、登月，所有这些重大时刻，因为它们使每个人都同意现实的存在。在那一刻，你在哪里，这是一个如此强大的工具，我们之前认为理所当然，但在不断个体化的世界中失去了。
So it is good. Yeah, now we can watch whatever TV show we can listen to whatever song, but it also means there's few of us humming at the same frequencies. There's few of us laughing at the same moments. So while it's good and amazing, I think for learning especially, I think there's also an element of bringing it all together that would also be crucial and maybe it could do that.
所以很好啊，现在我们可以看任何电视节目，听任何歌曲，但这也意味着我们很少有人在相同的频率上哼唱，很少有人在同一时刻笑。所以虽然这非常好和惊人，但我认为对于学习来说，还需要把所有的东西都整合在一起，这也是至关重要的，也许它可以做到。
Maybe at the end of the day, read what's just something, you watch something, I watch something, and it makes sure that we all know that LeBron James has now surpassed the all-time scoring record, but the way in which we learned it was completely different. And then maybe that could be what sort of brings us back together.
也许最后，我们读了一些东西，你看了一些东西，我看了一些东西，这确保我们都知道勒布朗·詹姆斯现在已经超越了有史以来的得分记录，但我们学习的方式完全不同。然后也许这就是能让我们重新走到一起的东西。
And that's kind of the thing that I'm hopeful for. And by the way, to your earlier work comments, which I basically completely agree, it's like, how do we use this tool? How do we do it?
"这就是我所希望的事情。另外，就你之前的工作评论而言，我完全同意，问题在于我们该如何使用这个工具？我们该怎么做呢？"
I think there's a whole bunch of human work that we essentially have almost infinite demand on.
我认为有很多人类工作，我们基本上有几乎无限的需求。
I'll use a parallel from LinkedIn, which is, you know, when we start LinkedIn, it feels that, oh, this is going to like put recruiters out of work because it'll amplify the ability for recruiters so much that you'll have one versus 10. And what I've seen over the last 20 years is we have eventing the same number or more recruiters. And because we have kind of infinite demand for it.
我会用LinkedIn上的类比来解释，你知道，当我们开始使用LinkedIn时，人们感觉这会让招聘人员失业，因为它会让招聘人员的能力大大增强，一个人可以与十个人相媲美。但我在过去的20年里看到的是，我们雇佣的招聘人员数量仍然相同或更多，因为我们有无限的需求。
It's not every job, like we don't have infinite demand for tractor drivers, right? You know, there's places where that 20 becomes one. But I think that kind of amplification, and I think that AI in the media space can be used to build bridges. And build bridges also to share truth.
并不是每个工作都像拖拉机司机这样，我们对他们没有无限的需求对吧？你知道，在某些地方二十个人只需要一个拖拉机司机。但是我认为这种放大的方式，我认为AI在媒体领域可以用来架起桥梁。同时也可以架起桥梁来分享真相。
Like obviously everyone's worried about the misinformation and can be used that way and how groups politicize. But I think it can also be how do we use it to find a common truth, partially through common events as well. And I think that's one of the things that we should be asking for the creators of AI to be paying attention to and to doing. And I think that's one of the reasons why the public dialogue about it is so important.
就像显然地，每个人都担心误导信息会被利用，以及团体如何将其政治化。但我认为我们也可以利用它以寻找共同的真相，部分通过共同的事件。我想这是我们应该要求人工智能创造者关注和处理的事情之一。这也是为什么对人工智能的公众对话非常重要的原因之一。
Right. I think it can be achieved. You know, I always think of Wikipedia as a great example. Every time people talk about misinformation and society being bad and what I disagree. I disagree because I look at Wikipedia as a perfect example of what naturally happens when there isn't an external factor pushing the platform to make decisions that are sub-optimal for the facts that it is trying to push out.
对，我认为这是可以实现的。你知道，我总是把维基百科看作是一个很好的例子。每次人们谈论虚假信息和社会的不良状况时，我都不同意。我不同意的原因是，如果没有外部因素推动平台做出那些不符合事实的决策，那么维基百科就是一个完美的例子，展示了自然而然发生的过程。
And because of Wikipedia's business model, it's accurate. And you would think, think of the internet, think of the world we live in, think of what we think of ourselves as people. You would think Wikipedia would be trash and everything would be a lie and everything would be a scam and it's not. People pride themselves on being really good at putting out good information. The community prides itself on self-policing, on self-regulating.
因为维基百科的商业模式，所以它很准确。考虑到互联网、我们所生活的世界以及我们对自身的认知，你可能会认为维基百科是垃圾、所有信息都是谎言，甚至可能是骗局。但事实并非如此。人们自豪于能够提供准确的信息。这个社群自豪于自我监管、自我调节。
And what you end up with is one of the most accurate sources of information you'll ever come across. And it's also balanced.
你最终得到的是最准确的信息来源之一，并且还是平衡的。
You know, so you'll go into Wikipedia article and you can type anything. Vaccines and it'll say to you, now some people have thought this and it has been disproven by this and these are the studies and this is the that and this is, and it's there. It's all laid out for you.
你知道，你可以打开维基百科的文章，然后随便输入“疫苗”，它就会告诉你，有些人认为这样，但这已经被证明是不正确的了，这些是研究结果，这是它的依据，这些信息都在那里，已经列出来了。
And so I think we should never take for granted. That's why I keep going back to the capitalism of it all because I go to speak about AI in a vacuum is ignorant in my opinion because AI is not existing in a vacuum.
我认为我们永远不应该视为理所当然。这就是为什么我一直回到资本主义的原因，因为我认为在真空中谈论AI是愚蠢的，因为AI并不是存在于真空中的。
Let's go one other, you know, kind of non-AI angle of technology because you have this broad technology interest and AI is obviously one of the ways. There's all of this other sort of things, ARVR, you know, even, you know, holograms, you know, Star Trek, a smell of vision, you know, like all of this stuff.
我们来换一个话题，你擅长广泛的技术，不仅限于人工智能。除了人工智能，还有很多其他技术方向，比如增强现实和虚拟现实、全息技术啊，就像星际迷航中那样，还有感觉气味的技术等等。
Is there anything that either AI combining with that or other things that you see coming that you think will be particularly useful for the kind of the society, social media, you didn't media?
你觉得将来有没有任何人工智能结合其他技术或事物可以为社交媒体或其他媒体带来特别有用的东西？
Oh, definitely, definitely. I think there are many places where I'm excited to see AI contribute beyond creative expression, idea generation and information gathering. I think one of the more exciting aspects of AI for me right now is seeing what it will be able to do in terms of being an assistant.
哦，当然，当然。我觉得AI在创意表达、创意生成和信息收集以外，还有很多领域有望做出贡献。目前对我来说，AI最令人兴奋的方面之一是看它将能够在助理方面做些什么。
I think people take for granted how wonderful and powerful AI could be as an assistant for everyone in everything, you know, your grandmother using it to tell her about her medication, but really break it down. So your child using it to ask a question to further understand what the homework assignment is actually about as opposed to just sitting at home blank and not understanding.
我觉得人们常常忽略了人工智能作为一种助手在各方面所能发挥的美妙和强大的作用，你知道，比如你的祖母用它来提醒她吃药，但实际上需要更详细地解释一下。例如你的孩子可以用它来进一步了解作业到底是关于什么的，而不是只是无所事事地坐在家里不明白。
Somebody at work asking for a piece of clarification with some of the materials that they may be using, you know, in, I don't know, everything from building a power plant to compiling an Excel spreadsheet, whatever it is, I think those areas are really exciting.
在工作中，有人需要澄清一些可能会使用的资料，比如建造发电厂、编写Excel电子表格等各种事项。我认为这些领域非常令人兴奋。
So in the world of like AR and VR, I mean, we don't know. I've often thought like I'm a gamer. I love gaming. I love thinking about how AI could combine with gaming.
在像AR和VR这样的世界里，我们不知道会发生什么。我常常觉得我是一个玩家。我喜欢玩游戏。我喜欢思考人工智能如何与游戏相结合。
I think of worlds that we already experienced in video games. And now imagine if, imagine if AI is generating all of the conversations that every character in Grand Theft Auto is having as you're walking through the street, all these NPCs, in these non playable characters, you're walking around and they're all having real conversation that are being generated in the possibilities almost endless.
我想起在视频游戏中已经经历过的各种世界。现在，想象一下，如果AI正在生成Grand Theft Auto中的每个角色在街上进行的所有谈话，所有这些非玩家角色，你在走动时，他们都在进行真实的对话，这些可能性几乎无穷无尽。
And then what does that mean for a world like second life? What does that mean for the metaverse if it ever exists? What does that mean for all of it?
那么这对于像Second Life这样的世界意味着什么呢？ 如果元宇宙真的存在，这意味着什么？ 这对所有这些意味着什么？
And then you think of, you know, small things like training. You're training to be a doctor, an engineer, a pilot, you know, a mechanic, whatever it is. Imagine a world where your instructor is AI. You're wearing goggles that are showing you what you're going to be doing.
然后你会想到，你知道的那些小事情，比如培训。你正在接受医生、工程师、飞行员、机械师或其他职业的培训。想象一下，如果你的导师是人工智能。你戴着护目镜能看到自己要做的事情。
You're able to stand in front of a Rolls Royce engine on a Boeing 787 or whatever plane it's on and you're able to meticulously work on it and work to the level of skill that you need to to be able to get that job in a way that you wouldn't have before.
你可以站在波音787或其他飞机上的劳斯莱斯引擎面前，你可以仔细地工作，并且以你需要的技能水平工作，以此来获得那份工作，这是你以前所无法做到的。
You couldn't have flown to the right academy. You wouldn't have been able to live where you needed to live. You wouldn't have afforded accommodation on campus. And yet now you could do all of this and your instructor moves at the pace that you need them to move at.
你不可能去到正确的学院。你没办法住在你需要住的地方。你支付不起学校的住宿费。然而现在你能够做到这一切，而且你的导师会按照你的步伐来教你。
As opposed to moving at the pace that they have to because of, you know, the hour hands on a clock. And I think all of those applications are really, really, really fascinating because it can become everybody's personal professor.
与被时钟上的指针所驱使的速度不同，人们可以自己掌控自己的步伐。我想所有这些应用都非常有趣，因为它们能成为每个人的个人导师。
Where you can say, Professor, I don't understand that could you repeat that? Could you go back? Could you slow down? Could you elaborate? Could you break it down? Could you give it to me in an analogy?
您可以这样说，“教授，我不理解，您可以再说一遍吗？您能回头讲一下吗？您能放慢讲话速度吗？您能详细解释一下吗？您能分解一下吗？您能用类比的方法解释一下吗？”
Could you, whatever it might be, it means that you almost have an infinite capacity for learning and applying that knowledge. And I, yeah, every, every avenue I see it used in, I find particularly fascinating.
你，不管是什么，意味着你几乎具备了无限的学习和应用知识的能力。而我，每次看到它被应用在任何领域中，我都觉得特别迷人。
I love that so much. Read actually wrote an article called a co-pilot for every profession that was similar sort of in vain to what you're talking about.
我非常喜欢那件事。Read实际上写了一篇文章，名为“每个职业都需要一名副驾驶员”，与你所谈论的类似，但是有点不符合实际。
Like, everyone thinks about like, oh, but isn't a real life teacher better than an AI tutor? And it's like, well, if you're a kid at home to your point, like sitting after school for three hours of no adult, like, oh my God. Like an AI tutor is so much better.
就像每个人都会想，哦，但是真正的生活教师不是比AI导师更好吗？如果你是一个孩子，在放学后在家里呆了三个小时，没有成年人陪伴，那么像这样的情况，AI导师确实更好一些。
And so the possibilities are endless. Like one thing we talked about was, you know, truth, information, you talked about how social media hits the, the capital is in profit motive has sort of disrupted that cycle.
所以，可能性是无限的。就像我们谈论的一件事情，你知道的，真相，信息，你谈到了社交媒体打击了资本的利润动机，从而扰乱了那个循环。
Like do you have any, any hopes for how to make the social media atmosphere better? How to, not necessarily with AI with anything, how to make the disinformation cycle better?
你有没有任何希望，希望用什么方法让社交媒体的氛围更好？不一定要用人工智能或其他什么，怎样才能让谣言传播的循环变得更好呢？
I mean, this is something you, you know, you talked about on the daily show for the, the last six years. Like, how do we fix that part of society? Or are we hopeless?
我是说，这是你在《每日秀》上谈论了六年的一个问题。像，我们要怎样修复社会的这一部分呢？或者说我们已经没有希望了吗？
Well, I don't think we're hopeless. I think we're misguided. In my opinion, trying to fix disinformation is trying to undo humans. I am yet to discover a period in time when there wasn't disinformation.
嗯，我认为我们并不是绝望的。我认为我们是被引导错误了。在我看来，试图修复虚假信息就像试图解开人类本身。我还没有发现过一个时期没有虚假信息的情况。
You know, it's literally as old as time. Go read the Bible as people lying and telling stories in the, in the Bible. And I think of it that way I go like instead of trying to fix disinformation, first of all, we try and understand why people do it, why they don't do it.
你知道，这个问题实际上就像是古老的传说一样。去读读圣经，里面讲到了人们在那个时代也会说谎和编故事。以我看来，我们应该先去理解人们为什么会这样做，为什么不这样做，而不是试图修复虚假信息。
You know, we'll always study that forever. What, what I look at with social media rather is how do we protect ourselves from something spreading as quickly as it does? So it's the same reason we don't allow people to own bombs.
你知道，我们将永远学习那个。关于社交媒体，我更关心的是我们如何保护自己免受其迅速传播的影响？所以我们不允许人们拥有炸弹的原因也是一样的。
You know, unfortunately, in society, most humans don't want to hurt other humans, most humans. But for those outliers, we don't want them to have an outsizability to inflict harm upon others. And so we try and limit their access to these weapons or to these, you know, these tools of destruction.
你知道，在社会中，大多数人都不想伤害其他人，真的大多数人。但对于那些离群之人，我们不希望他们拥有能够对别人造成伤害的过度力量。因此，我们尝试限制他们获取这些武器或破坏性的工具。
I think the same goes for social media. The one downside of social media is it's designed to create engagement. And I think sometimes when we block ourselves when we talk about it being good or bad, it's not good or bad. It's just it is designed to maximize engagement.
我想社交媒体也是如此。社交媒体的一个缺点是它被设计用于创造互动。我认为有时候，当我们谈论它是好还是坏时，我们会把自己限制住。其实它不是好或坏，它只是被设计用于最大化互动。
Unfortunately for humans, and maybe this is because of our reptilian brain or whatever, we engage with danger and we engage with what we don't agree with and we weigh more than things. If you read a tweet that you like, someone tweets something out there, they go like, nothing better than the first day of spring.
不幸的是，也许这是由于我们的“脑类爬行动物”部分，人类总是与危险和不赞同的事情接触，而且我们更在意这些事情。如果你看到一条喜欢的推文，有人发了个推文，他们写道，没有什么比春天的第一天更好的了。
You just read it and you're like, yeah, keep it moving. Happy, happy, keep it moving. You might not like it. You might not retweet it. You might not anything. But if somebody writes there they go, spring is the worst season ever invented. I wish it was winter perpetually, you would go, all right, I need to engage with this psychopath and it's on. That's engagement.
你刚才看了它，然后就说，对啊，继续前进吧。开心地继续前进。也许你不喜欢它，也许你不会转发它，也许你对它毫不在意。但是如果有人说春天是有史以来最糟糕的季节，我希望永远都是冬天，你就会想，好的，我需要与这个疯子互动了，就这样。这就是互动。
And so unfortunately what happens is because the model needs engagement to remain profitable, it then has to encourage the thing that is not best for us and that is conflict. So how would we change that? I honestly don't know.
很不幸的是，模型需要参与度才能保持盈利，所以它不得不鼓励不利于我们的冲突。那么，我们应该如何改变呢？坦白说，我不知道。
I mean, I look at what's interesting is like, look at how China has handled their social media and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should move to China's model. But there are a few interesting elements in how they've decided what you can and cannot do for the health of a community.
我是说，我看到有趣的东西就像，看看中国是如何处理他们的社交媒体，不要误解我，我不是说我们应该采用中国的模式。但是他们决定哪些是对社区健康有益的限制做法是值得注意的。
You know, you cannot just inundate people with TikTok videos that like, you know, basically mush their brains. They are TikTok and yet here they are saying, no, this is how we think TikTok should be applied to our country and how kids should use TikTok and what should be on TikTok and how many hours of TikTok, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
你知道，你不能够只是不断地泛滥人们的Tiktok视频，这些视频会像闷泥一样影响他们的大脑。他们是使用Tiktok的人，但是他们在这里说，不，这是我们认为Tiktok应用到我们国家的方式，孩子们应该怎样使用Tiktok，Tiktok上应该有什么内容，以及使用多少个小时等等。
I don't think that's meritless. You know, I'm not saying we should move to a Chinese clamp down system, but I don't think it's meritless. The same way at some point the US government said, hey, vape pens, actually what's happening here? The same way, you know, the US government decides how much alcohol can be in a bottle of alcohol. The same, we decide all these things.
我不认为那是没有价值的。你知道，我并不是说我们应该转向中国的管制系统，但我不认为这没有价值。就像美国政府在某个时候说，嘿，吸雾笔，实际上这里发生了什么？同样，你知道，美国政府决定一瓶酒里可以有多少酒精。同样的，我们决定所有这些事情。
We decide oftentimes what is best for the health of human beings. And I think it should be no different with social media. There has to be some sort of reckoning and some sort of conversation around. Can it just be unbridled? Can you just use it infinitely? Can it just spew as much hatred at you as possible?
我们常常决定什么对人类健康最好。我认为对社交媒体也不应该有所不同。必须进行某种程度的反思和讨论。它能没有限制吗？你能无限制地使用它吗？它能尽可能地向你喷发仇恨吗？
When I open my phone, I'm just going to see every racist incident that's happened in the last 15 years and there's no context as to when or how or if it happened, that to me is, I don't think that's good. It's not healthy. It's not sustainable.
当我打开手机，我只看到了过去15年发生的所有种族主义事件，但没有上下文说明它们发生的时间、方式或是否发生，我认为这样不好。这是不健康的。也不可持续。
To be honest with you, I do think social media companies should be held responsible for what is not put on their platforms, but for what is pushed on their platforms. That's amplified. Yeah. And I think a lot of social media companies have tried to duck and dive and be like, oh no, we're just a public messaging board. We're a public square. We don't want to decide what people say or don't say.
老实说，我认为社交媒体公司应该对放在他们平台上的内容持责任态度，而不是对被推广的内容负责。那些被加强了的内容。是的。而我认为许多社交媒体公司试图躲避和假装自己只是一个公共消息板，一个公共广场。我们不想决定人们说或不说的话。
It's like, hey, okay. But if that's the truth and if that were true, there's no public square that amplifies somebody's speech on their behalf. If read goes and stands in a public square and says something, the public square doesn't send that to me at home. And so I think there's a level of culpability that social media companies wish to avoid. And I think at some point, like I think of the most dystopian version of this is like, I can see a world where somebody, and I think there may be a case that's heading up either to the Supreme Court or somewhere where somebody's going to do something.
这个意思就像是，“嘿，好的。但如果那是真的，如果那是事实，就没有公共广场可以代表某人扩大其言论。如果雷德在公共广场上说了些什么，公共广场并不会把它发送给我在家里。因此，我认为社交媒体公司希望避免某种程度上的过失。我认为最反乌托邦的版本可能是，我可以看到一个世界，某个人会做某些事情，我认为可能有一个案子正在向最高法院或某处发展。”
And it's going to be something terrible. And their defense is going to be that they thought they were acting either in self-defense or protecting their country or whatever it may be because of the reality that they were presented with by social media. And I think it is then going to be an interesting case study in how much does social media play a role in determining what people do or don't do because if you are watching, let's put it this way, if you are watching the local news and or even the news like the national news and someone like Lester Holt came on and said breaking news, America is being invaded right now.
这是将会是件可怕的事情。他们的辩护将是，他们认为自己是在自卫或保护国家，或者因为社交媒体所呈现的现实情况，他们做了一些事情。我认为这将成为一个有趣的案例研究，研究社交媒体在决定人们做什么或不做什么方面扮演了多大的角色，因为如果你正在观看当地新闻，甚至像莱斯特·霍尔特这样的国家新闻，然后他们宣布：美国正在遭受入侵的突发事件。
There are aliens out, everyone get outside and take your pots and pans, fight, fight with all your might and you walked outside and you saw aliens or you saw what they said were aliens. They said they're going to be dressed like this and this is fight with all your might and the president put out an address and said, there's aliens. Because we've got to fight these aliens, you would do it most likely, right? You'd either lock yourself in your house or you'd go outside and you'd fight the aliens.
有外星人出现了，每个人都要出去，拿起你的锅碗瓢盆，尽你所能地战斗。你走出门口，看见了外星人，或者你看见他们所说的外星人。他们说他们将会穿着这样的衣服，我们必须全力以赴地战斗。总统发布了讲话，称有外星人。因为我们必须与这些外星人作战，你会很可能这么做，对吧？你会锁在家里，或者走出去与外星人战斗。
And then the next day someone comes and goes, actually that was all fake. Yeah, it was actually just like it was a fake news report. We don't know what happened. Are you liable for all the aliens that you've killed that weren't aliens? What do you do now? You're like, oh, they were actually humans. Are you fully liable or aren't you? We want to make sure we capture a few rapid fire questions and I will open with, is there a movie song or book that fills you with optimism for the future?
然后第二天有个人来了又走了，其实那全是假的。是的，实际上就像假新闻一样。我们不知道发生了什么。如果你杀了一些不是外星人的人，你要负全部责任吗？现在你要怎么办？你是说，哦，他们实际上是人类。你要承担全部责任吗？我们想确保我们捕捉到一些快速的问题，我首先会问，有没有一部电影歌曲或书籍使您对未来充满乐观？
So a book, one of my favorite stories is by Rolle-Dahl. It's, I think it's the wonderful story of Henry Sugar. I love that story. That's six more. Yeah. It's a wonderful story because it's a story of a man who has everything in life wants to get more of everything in life. And on that journey discovers that he was trying to fill a bucket full of holes essentially which was himself. And on this journey of trying to become like the richest, the everything is the everything he discovers that he doesn't need all of what he was chasing.
我有一本最爱看的书，是Rolle-Dahl写的《亨利·苏格的奇妙之旅》。我觉得这个故事太棒了。我喜欢这个故事，因为它讲述了一个人生活中拥有一切，但却想要更多的人，他在追求更多的同时发现，实际上他在试图填满一个漏洞满满的桶，也就是他自己。在这个追求成为最富有的人，成为了一切事物的道路上，他发现自己并不需要他一直在追逐的所有东西。
And he actually pairs down his life and he becomes more philanthropic and he gives away more and he, yeah, and he just, but it's a beautiful story about what, you know, what people can be and what we shouldn't forget we're actually trying to do. It's a really wonderful story because it reminds me if we can find ways to tap into what we actually need in society and we can find a cleaner path to getting there.
他实际上简化了他的生活，变得更加慈善，捐赠更多，而且，是的，他只是...但这是一个关于人们可以成为什么以及我们不应该忘记自己实际上正在努力做的事情的美丽故事。这是一个非常美妙的故事，因为它提醒我們，如果我们能找到方法去挖掘我们在社会中实际上需要的东西，并找到一条更清洁的通路去实现它。
Rapid Fire number two, where do you see progress in society that makes you hopeful or that inspires you? Like what good is going on that you feel really good about?
"快速问答第二题，你在社会上看到哪些进步让你感到充满希望或启发？有哪些美好的事情正在发生，让你感觉非常好呢？"
Oh, everywhere, everywhere. You know, I, I think one of the downsides of a, you know, nonstop 24 hour news, both on television and online has made people a lot more cynical than I think we should be, you know, because news has to be bad in order for you to find it interesting, you know, in order for it to, you know, generate that engagement we talk about. And what that means, unfortunately, is you can live in a space where you only think bad is happening.
哦，到处都是，到处都是。你知道吗，我认为24小时不间断的电视和在线新闻的一个缺点是它让人们变得更加愤世嫉俗，比我们应该的还要多。因为新闻只有在坏事情发生时才能引起我们的兴趣，才能产生我们所谈论的那种参与感。不幸的是，这意味着你可能生活在一个只认为坏事情在发生的空间。
And I'm not saying bad isn't happening, but it is not happening at the rates and the scale that most people think it is. You know, I'll ask people questions, you know, someone will be like, oh, this city is not safe. And I'll go like, oh, what makes you say that? Oh, you know, crime has gone up and it's just dangerous now. And I go, okay, have you been in danger? No, but have your friends been in it? No, but I heard of and I saw and I'm like, where?
我并不是说坏事情没有发生，但它并没有以大多数人认为的那个速率和规模发生。你知道，我会问人们问题，有些人会说这个城市不安全。然后我会问，那是为什么呢？哦，你知道，犯罪率上升了，现在变得危险了。然后我会问，好的，你感到过危险吗？没有，但是你的朋友们有被卷进事情里吗？没有，但我听说过，我看到过，我就会问，哪里？
And the truth is it's just how it's told to us, you know, it's that great quote for the great majority of mankind are more concerned by things that seem than by those that are. And so what makes me hopeful is the things that actually are standards of living increasing across the globe. Yes, we'll have moments where we're we're we backslide. We've always got to fight against those, but just like a drought in, you know, in the Sarangetti, there will be moments of that in life, unfortunately.
事实上，这就是告诉我们的方式，你知道，有一个伟大的名言，大多数人更关心那些看起来很重要的事情而不是实际的事情。所以让我充满希望的是，全球实际上改善了生活水平的事情。是的，我们会有倒退的时刻。我们总是要与之作斗争，但就像荒漠中的旱灾一样，人生中会有这样的时刻，不幸地。
And what we're always trying to do is immunize ourselves from the effects of those backsliding moments and hedge our ourselves. But we shouldn't forget that we're constantly moving forward in all areas. You know, I look at how tech, a world where it was once so homogenous and blindly homogenous has become completely comfortable having conversations now about like, all right, but what about what about women in the space and what about people of color in the space and how are we making this more equitable?
我们总是试图通过免疫自己以抵御那些倒退的时刻，并对自己进行保护。但我们不应忽视我们在各个方面不断向前进步的事实。你知道，我看到科技领域曾经是如此同质化和盲目同质化，现在却变得完全舒适，谈论着像在空间中的女性和有色人群，以及我们如何使之更加公平。
People don't people take for granted how not just unheard of but impossible those conversations were a few decades ago. And now people just have them. I think that's fantastic. I think that's a wonderful place to see technology moving forward.
人们不认为几十年前那些对话不仅是听都没听过，而且是不可能的。现在人们却如此轻松地进行着那些对话。我认为这太棒了。我认为这是技术向前发展的一个美好方向。
I think in order to be a technologist, in order to be somebody who loves creating technology and working on designing a future, you have to be an optimist because you have to believe the future you're designing for will exist or you have to believe that what you're creating will contribute to that future. So as somebody who loves working on technology and working in technology, I, yeah, I can't help but be an optimist. And it's not even like I made myself that way. I am that way. And that's probably why I gravitate towards the world of tech.
我认为，想成为技术专家，成为一个热爱创造技术、并致力于设计未来的人，必须要是一个乐观主义者，因为你必须相信为之设计的未来是存在的，或者相信你所创造的东西将有助于未来的发展。所以作为一个喜爱技术工作、从事技术开发的人，我不能不是一个乐观主义者。而且这并不是我刻意做的，我就是这样的人。这可能是为什么我向往科技世界的原因。
Is there a particular technology that you're watching to help us regain optimism or to shape to make sure we don't because we are collapsing into pessimism in various ways? Is there anything that you're particularly paying attention to there for for reconnecting us intellectually and emotionally with, you know, and I'm on a broader societal basis with possibilities for optimism?
你在关注某种特定的技术来帮助我们恢复乐观，或者形塑一些确保我们不会在各种方式下陷入悲观的方式吗？你是否有特别关注的内容，让我们在智力和情感上重建和更广泛社会基础上的乐观主义可能性联系？
Although it has many downsides, I have, I have been really intrigued with how TikTok operates and look, it's still relatively young versus the other social media platforms. And so I don't know what it will evolve into. It may go downhill. I don't know. But there's something wonderful in how they've managed to not just curate and create positive worlds for people, but they've also found a really interesting way to introduce new ideas to people and sort of poke holes in their bubbles.
虽然它有很多缺点，但我一直对TikTok的运营方式很感兴趣，它与其他社交媒体平台相比还很年轻。所以我不知道它将会演变成什么样子。也许会走下坡路。我不知道。但他们在如何为人们策划和创造积极的世界方面有着很棒的工作，他们还发现了一种非常有趣的方法来向人们介绍新的想法以及挑战他们的思维范围。
And I look at how much joy people have. That's oftentimes how I measure things. You know, I don't know if you remember there was a period, do you remember the period in life when everyone would say, have you seen this YouTube video? Oh, Charlie bit my finger. Have you seen this YouTube video, the cat playing piano? Have you, oh, I watched this YouTube video the other day, this YouTube video? Those are magical moments. Now YouTube has become a lot more long form and people don't really go to it for that type of information or content, but that's beautiful.
我看着人们有多开心，这通常是我衡量事物的方式。你知道吗，我不知道你是否记得曾经有这样一个时期，大家总是说：“你看过这个YouTube视频吗？哦，查理咬了我的手指。你看过这个YouTube视频了吗？猫弹钢琴。哦，我前几天看了这个YouTube视频。”那些都是神奇的时刻。现在YouTube变得更加长篇大论，人们不再去那里寻找那种类型的信息或内容，但那真是美好的。
That's really, really cool. And I think TikTok is in that infancy right now. I think most social media platforms actually start there fun enough. You know, I remember I was on Twitter when it was all about jokes. All people made with jokes and it was fun and it was cool and it was reckless as well. But that's what it was. And now it's become a lot more serious and a lot more, you know, angry and a lot more determined. But I think TikTok is in that space right now and so I'm always excited to see where these, where these technologies are going to go.
这真的很酷！我认为TikTok现在正处于初期阶段。实际上，我觉得大多数社交媒体平台都是从那里开始的，挺有趣的。你知道，我记得当Twitter全是关于笑话的时候，大家开玩笑的那个时候真的很有趣也很酷，但也有点不负责任。但那就是它本来的样子。现在它变得更加严肃，更加愤怒，更加决绝了。但我认为TikTok现在就处于那个空间里，所以我总是很兴奋地看着这些技术往哪个方向发展。
How do they connect people? How do they inform people? How do they bring them joy? The person who always smiled to you and be like, oh, what's this TikTok? The other day, oh, have you seen that TikTok way? That's wonderful. I don't think we should ever take for granted how powerful joy can be.
它们是如何联系人们的？它们是如何通知人们的？它们是如何带给人们快乐的？总是对你微笑着说：“哦，这是什么TikTok？”“前几天，哦，你看过那个TikTok了吗？那太棒了。”我们永远不应该忽视快乐的力量。
Well, Trevor, you set us up really well to the final question we ask everyone, which is, leave us a final thought. What is possible to achieve if everything broke humanity's way? Like if everything went right, if we achieved the possible, what does that look like for us? What is that future? What is the first step to get there?
嗯，特雷弗，你的提问为我们提供了一个完美的结束语。这个问答环节的最后一个问题是，留给我们一个最后的想法。如果一切都顺利，我们人类有可能达成什么样的成就？如果一切都按我们所希望的方式发展，我们将会看到什么样的未来呢？为了达成那个未来，首先要迈出哪一步？
This is going to sound weird. I hope we don't ever get there. I have recently been reading a lot about how we see the world and how puzzles and challenge and difficulty are the reason we survive as a species. And not unlike any other species, I wonder what would happen to us if we have no challenge and everything does fall our way.
这个可能听起来有点奇怪，希望我们永远都不会有那种经历。最近我读了很多关于我们如何看待世界，以及谜题、挑战和困难是我们作为一个物种能够生存下来的原因。就像其他物种一样，我怀疑如果我们没有挑战并且一切都顺利的话，我们的命运会是怎样的。
Does it mean we become less resilient? Does it mean we become less resistant to what may impact us? Does it mean we don't survive pandemics? Does it mean we, because once something pops into our world that's an outlier, that doesn't go our way, does that wipe us out? You know, do we become such a fragile species that we don't know how to deal with adversity? I don't know the answer to these questions.
这是否意味着我们变得更缺乏弹性？这是否意味着我们变得更不抗击一切可能对我们产生影响的事物？这是否意味着我们无法在全球疫情中生存下来？这是否意味着，因为一旦出现了我们无法应对的异常情况，我们就会遭受失败？也就是说，我们是否成为一个如此脆弱的物种，无法应对逆境？我不知道这些问题的答案。
I keep talking to people much smarter than me to try and figure it out. And I like thinking about it myself. I hope we get to a place where everybody finds a solution to an almost artificial scarcity that we've created in some aspects of what we do. And we sort of come to exist more as opposed to just living to do.
我一直和比我聪明的人交谈，试图理解。同时，我也喜欢自己思考。希望我们能够达到一个境界，让每个人都能找到解决我们在某些方面所创造的几乎人为稀缺的问题的方法。我们应该更多地存在，而不仅仅是为了生存。
I sort of can't articulate it, but I think about how important it is to have art, like a sculpture, a beautiful building, a painting, music. I take all of these things for granted. You don't see them schools, you see them getting cut from curriculums. And I understand why people go like, well, I'm not going to pay so my kids learn how to play the clarinet. You're kidding me a recorder? That's what's the point of that? You can't get a job. Yeah, but it's more than just about jobs.
我有点说不出来，但我觉得艺术有多么重要，比如雕塑、美丽的建筑、绘画和音乐。我把这些东西看作理所当然的了。你不在学校里看到它们，你看到它们被从课程中削减。我理解为什么人们会说：“我不会花钱让我孩子学吹单簧管。”“你在开玩笑吧，吹笛子有什么用？”“你找不到工作。”是啊，但这不仅仅是关于工作。
And so if everything fell our way, I would hope we live in a world where not everything is about do, but everything could be about be. And so then a teacher, a painter, an architect, an engineer, a pilot, a comedian, everyone could just find their purpose and meaning in a way that doesn't threaten their livelihood. Because I think if we completely lose that, then we just become like a worker species that has no flame, no personality, no creativity. And so I, yeah, I hope everything falls in our way in that direction. We got to keep that grit and keep that joy, for sure.
如果一切都顺利的话，我希望我们生活在一个不是一切都关乎做何事，而是一切都关乎做何人的世界里。在这样的世界里，教师、画家、建筑师、工程师、飞行员、喜剧演员，每个人都可以找到他们的目标和意义，而不会威胁到他们的生计。因为我认为，如果我们完全失去了这些，那么我们就只是一些没有激情、没有个性、没有创造力的工作物种。所以，我希望一切都能朝着这个方向顺利发展。我们必须保持不屈不挠和快乐。
And on that note, we look forward to having you voice the AI on a future Star Trek episode. And Trevor as a friend and as an amazing humanist, thank you very much for joining us on Possible. Thank you so much.
在那个意义上，我们期待着让您在未来的《星际迷航》剧集中为AI发声。作为一个朋友和非常优秀的人道主义者，特雷弗，非常感谢您加入我们的Possible。非常感谢你。
That was so fun to hear from Trevor Noah. Rita, I'd love to hear from you. Like what was the most surprising thing about the interview? You know Trevor, he's a friend. What surprised you?
听Trevor Noah说话真是太有趣了！Rita，我很想听听你的心得。比如说，在采访中最让你惊讶的是什么？你知道Trevor，他是我们的朋友。你被哪些事情惊到了呢？
Actually, what surprised me was the depth of the optimism. In part because obviously when you, we watch him interviewing in the Daily Show and doing his comedy routines, it tends to be the what's absurd or broken or shining a light on something in order to make a difference in it. And so you don't see the very broad and deep what it's time to be alive. Oh my God, there's so many things as possible. It's so important to get to that future.
实际上，让我惊讶的是乐观情绪的深度。部分原因是因为当我们看到他在《每日秀》采访和表演喜剧时，往往是揭示荒谬、破碎的事情，或者照亮某些问题以产生影响。因此你看不到这种非常广泛而深刻的生活态势，哦天啊，这么多可能性，进入未来非常重要。
It's so important to do that. But of course, it's important to bring humanity along with us and to have human concerns and to not just be including, of course, a bunch of fairly bold proposals, which you know might end up, that would obviously be a spectacular utopia.
这做起来非常重要。但当然，我们要带着人性一起前行，要关心人的问题，而不仅仅是包含一堆相当大胆的提议，你知道这可能会变成一个绝妙的乌托邦。
What I loved that is not quite the same but related is this conversation about joy and that the importance of joy and that he's clearly a very serious person. He wants to improve the world. He sees the dangers and discrimination and wants to make the world a better place.
我喜欢的不完全相同但相关的是这次关于快乐的对话，以及快乐的重要性和他明显是一个非常认真的人。他想要改善世界。他看到了危险和歧视，想要让这个世界变得更好。
But a lot of people like that are too sober that they can't recognize the importance of joy. And I think one of the places where this could come together is even if you don't have a four hour work week, a four hour work day, you still have work the same number of hours. But you're working a better job. You're working a job that brings you more joy. You're not, to your point, doing drudgery in the field. You're not having a terrible checkout job that you don't really care about because AI has taken some of that away and you've been able to find a new job. It's sort of more centers squarely with your purpose that you find more joy in.
很多像那样的人太过清醒，无法认识到快乐的重要性。我认为，即使你没有四小时工作周，但你仍然要工作相同的时间，但是你做的是更好的工作。你做了一份带给你更多快乐的工作。你不会像你所说的那样，做着田野上的苦力。你不会做那种你并不十分关心的可怕收银工作，因为AI已经取代了其中的一些工作，你能够找到新的工作。这与你的目的更加契合，更能让你找到更多的快乐。
And so I just found that sort of reaching for that better future, we can also include joy. You just have to be a productivity and they often go together because the more joyful you find something the harder you're going to work and perhaps the more you're going to want to work, which certainly resonates with me.
所以，我发现我们追求更美好的未来时，也可以包含快乐。你只需要变得有生产力，因为快乐的程度越高，你越会努力工作，或许你也会更想工作，这对我来说特别有共鸣。
Completely agree. And one of the things that we always love about talking about Trevor is he actually exemplifies that joy, you know, and having that humanity, having that look what matters, you look money is how we create an infrastructure that we all live in. But it's the joy and meaning of our lives and how we add into each other's lives that actually is a real goal was I thought the perfect expression of the kind of humanism, very technologically, you know, aware and using technology to amplify humanity.
完全同意。我们总是喜欢谈论Trevor的一点就是他真实地展现了那种喜悦，那种人性，那种关注真正重要的事情。我们花钱来营造我们共同生活的基础设施，但生活的乐趣、意义及我们如何相互促进是真正目标。我认为这是人文主义的完美表达，非常技术化，利用技术来增强人性。
I think another thing that I really liked about the conversation was we sort of talked about the jobs issue head on as it relates to AI. So obviously that's a big criticism. And Trevor shared that great quote from Sweden where they said, we're not going to make sure your job's okay. We're going to make sure you're okay. And I think he made a great point hilariously, you know, that 10 years ago, the sort of cultural elite in the United States, weren't worried about the coal miners jobs going the way.
我认为我们谈论到人工智能与工作问题时，直面它是我最喜欢的另一件事。这显然是一个大问题，但Trevor引用了瑞典的一句伟大的名言：“我们不会确保你的工作没问题，但我们会确保你没问题。”我认为他很有趣地指出了一个很好的观点，就是10年前，美国的文化精英并没有担心煤矿工人的工作。
We're not worried about factory automation, but all of a sudden when AI is coming for the journalists or, you know, the white collar workers, there's real concern, you know, and while being hilarious about it, he made a great point. It's like let's look at our own classism as we're embarking on impeding technology in the next generation. Why do we care so more about these white collar jobs than we did the blue collar jobs? And obviously I think you and I both agree that again, let's make sure the people are okay, not the jobs. And that's the only way you can, you know, go forward and make progress.
我们并不担心工厂自动化，但我们突然面对AI取代新闻工作者或者白领工人的时候，真的感到担忧。虽然讲得很幽默，但他也触及了一个很重要的问题。我们要看看自己的等级制度主义，特别是在进入下一代阻碍技术方面。为什么我们更关心白领工作而不是蓝领工作？当然，我认为你和我都同意，让人民安好，而不是工作，才是唯一前进和取得进步的方法。
Yeah, exactly. You know, what was your piece of information or a Trevor Noah perspective? You know, we're going to arrange so much more broadly than obviously just the media side. But was there anything in addition to kind of his quotes and his metaphors that you that really resonated with you?
对，确切地说。你知道，你分享的信息是来自Trevor Noah的观点吗？我们的计划不仅局限于媒体方面，还要更广泛地安排。除了他的引语和比喻，还有什么话语真正触动了你？
I just think he's such an insightful guy. So even in thinking about his rapid fire answers, he picked the story of Henry Sugar that I remember reading when I was 10. It's such a simple story about like what we should all aspire to in life. And Trevor got it right that, you know, we all think about the means to the end.
我觉得他真是个有洞察力的人。就算他快速地回答问题，他也挑出了我10岁时读到的《亨利·苏格尔的故事》。这个故事很简单，讲述了我们应该追求的生活目标。而特雷弗理解了，我们都在思考达到终点的方法。
And it's like, no, no, no, no, what's the end? What are we here for? Like this is so dorky. But over the past 24 hours, I've been ruminating on the famed Cheryl Crow quote. It's not about getting what you want. It's about wanting what you got. And I think Trevor sort of embodied that. He's like, look, slow down everyone. Why are we talking about all these things? Like, let's stroll it back. Let's talk about what's really important. And let's center that in our lives.
咱们听我说，这不行啊，到底是什么意义呢？我们来这里的目的是什么？这太幼稚了。不过，在过去24小时里，我一直在思考著名歌手谢丽尔·克劳的名言：“重要的不是得到你想要的，而是想要你已经拥有的。” 我觉得特雷弗体现了这一点。他说：“嘿，大伙儿，慢下来，我们为什么要谈论这些事情呢？让我们回归到真正重要的事情上来，让我们把它放在我们的生活中心。”
I've watched all of his specials. But I hope at the one day to be in the audience. Right. You and me both. Read one thing I wanted to ask you about is he did, you know, he did talk about capitalism. Obviously, you are someone who believes in capitalism as a way to create the greatest good. Like, did you agree with Trevor? Disagree. What would you add to the discussion?
我看过他所有的特别节目。但我希望有一天能在观众席上。没错，你和我一样。还有一件事我想问你，他谈到了资本主义。显然，你是一个相信资本主义能够创造最大利益的人。那么，你同意特雷弗的观点吗？还是有不同看法呢？你会在讨论中加入什么呢？
The nuance that I brought up a little bit in the discussion is that, you know, I am 100 percent good if we have a better idea than capitalism. On the vast majority of critics, like they just go, capitalism bad. And you're like, well, that's like saying, cars bad or airplanes bad or, you know, industrialized economies bad and so forth.
在讨论中，我提出的微妙之处是，如果我们有比资本主义更好的想法，我是100%支持的。大多数批评者只是简单的说“资本主义不好”，这就像说“汽车不好”、“飞机不好”或“工业化经济不好”等等。
And you're like, they generate all of this really amazing things that are a central part of the vast majority of people who engage with them's lives and those people don't want to give them up for very good reasons. And there's part of how they do it. Capitalism is part of how we've gotten to the massive jump in, you know, kind of GDV per person and in prosperity. And so if there's a better, I'm game for it, but just yelling, whining, you know, being, you know, mystery negative, Mrs. Negative on this stuff doesn't, doesn't, doesn't appeal to me at all because I think it's just destructive and adds no positive, nothing useful to the conversation whatsoever.
你知道吗，它们创造了许多真正惊人的东西，成为大多数人生活中的核心，这些人不想出于非常好的原因放弃它们。它们的成功的一部分来自于资本主义，我们得到了人均GDP的巨大飞跃和繁荣。如果有更好的方式，我会支持的，但只是叫喊、抱怨、表现得消极和对这些事情抱怨毫无益处，只会破坏和对交流没有任何有用的贡献。
So that's the reason I kind of push back a little bit. I was saying, I'm cautious now on being a decatalyst. Now anyone who's got a brain and eyes and a heart can see that what we've done with capitalism over the centuries has been, um, tune it. Like we go, well, this child labor thing. Let's fix that. You know, uh, oh, externality is impacting the environment. Well, let's start fixing that. Right. Yeah.
所以那就是我有些推迟的原因。我在说，我现在对于成为一个解化剂持谨慎态度。现在任何有大脑、眼睛和心的人都可以看到，我们在过去几个世纪内对资本主义做的事情已经很出色了。比如，我们解决了童工问题。我们开始解决了环境中的外部性问题。是吧。
And then it's so it's really important like, so for example, you say, well, you're going to have criticism. It's great. What would you either, what would be your whole cloth new system? And why do you think that could be very dangerous shift to? It's very, you know, we need a lot of stability, stable infrastructure or what's the, what's the tune you would do?
然后，这真的非常重要，比如，你说，嗯，你会遭受批评。那很好。你会选择哪种全新的系统呢？为什么你觉得这样的转变可能非常危险？我们需要很多稳定的基础设施，或者你会怎么调整？
And so the question around is to say, well, yeah, if we took the meaning of life to only be money, your bank balance, your quarterly profit, et cetera, et cetera, with some people who do, that's obviously very demeaning to what we can be as humanity, to what joy could be. Um, and whichever way you do that, of joy, spirituality, meaningfulness, you know, whatever kind of particular lens on this, this, this elevation of being human, um, is, is operating within the technology of the capitalist system.
那么，问题是这样的，如果我们把生命的意义仅定义为金钱、银行余额、季度利润等等，有些人确实这么做了，那显然是很贬低我们作为人类所能成为和感受到的快乐的，无论是从快乐、灵性、有意义的角度来看，无论采用何种特定的视角，这种人类高级存在的提升都是在资本主义体系的技术范畴内进行的。
And the technology of the money system is a very good thing. And so it's important to say, okay, yes, problems. And great, what might we do to make it better? Yeah. I think as with most things, and with what I appreciate about Trevor, it's all about nuance.
"货币系统的技术是非常好的东西。所以很重要要承认，它存在问题。但是，我们可以做些什么来改善呢？我认为，像大多数事情一样，Trevor用细微差别的方法来处理问题，这也是我欣赏他的地方。"
And when we talk about capitalism, the people who try to impede it or impede progress, we would prefer to make the pie as big as possible and then worry about giving it up later. And I think for me, the problem in the United States, at least in several places around the world, is we haven't, we haven't fixed the living it up yet. We haven't created the right social safety nets.
当我们谈论资本主义时，那些试图阻止它或阻碍进步的人，我们更希望把蛋糕做得尽可能大，然后再考虑分配。对我来说，至少在世界上几个地方，美国的问题在于我们还没有解决舒适生活的问题。我们还没有建立正确的社会保障网。
We haven't made sure that every child gets a great education or that everyone has health care in the United States, you know, a country that should be rich enough to provide everyone that. So I definitely agree with you that people who are throwing stones at capitalism without providing solutions is just silly. And let's work together to figure out what are those tweaks, what are those tunes, like exactly what you're talking about to use our heart to, you know, fix it to build toward the possible future that we want.
我们还没有确保每个孩子都获得了优质的教育，或者每个人都有医疗保健，在一个应该富足到能够为所有人提供这些条件的国家——美国。所以，我完全同意你的观点，那些抨击资本主义却不提供解决方案的人实在太愚蠢了。让我们一起努力找出那些调整和方法，就像你所说的那样，用我们的心来修正和建设我们想要的可能的未来。
So hopefully, episodes of this pod are going to teach us something about how we can get to a better capitalism.
希望这个播客的剧集能够教导我们如何让资本主义变得更好，像本地人一样的方式表达。
Possible is produced by Wonder Media Network, hosted by me, Reid Hoffman and RA Finger. Our showrunner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Edie Allard and Sarah Shleed. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and editor.
Possible是Wonder Media Network制作的，由我Reid Hoffman和RA Finger主持。我们的节目负责人是Sean Young。Edie Allard和Sarah Shleed制作了Possible。Jenny Kaplan是我们的执行制片人和编辑。
Special thanks to Chelsea Williamson, Jill Fritzzo, Stephen Fortelms, Jennifer Sandler. Maria Salihi, Sergio Yalamanchili, Sadis Epieva, Ian Alice, Greg Biotto, Ben Rellis, and the team at CityVox.
特别感谢切尔西·威廉姆森、吉尔·弗里佐、斯蒂芬·福特尔姆斯、詹妮弗·桑德勒、玛丽亚·萨利希、塞尔吉奥·亚拉曼奇利、萨迪斯·埃皮阿瓦、伊恩·艾丽斯、格雷格·比奥托、本·莱利斯以及CityVox团队。
Thanks for listening to a special guest episode of possible on the Grey Matter Channel. You can subscribe to this new podcast from Reid Hoffman and RA Finger wherever you get your podcasts. The transcript and AI generated story are linked in the show notes for this episode.
感谢您收听可能性节目在灰质频道上的特别嘉宾片段。您可以在任何收听播客的平台上订阅 Reid Hoffman 和 RA Finger 的这个新播客。本集节目的文字稿和AI生成的故事已经在节目说明中链接了。
And if you are already subscribed to Grey Matter, you can also sign up wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Heather Mack, thanks for listening.
如果你已经订阅了灰质，你也可以在你获得播客的地方注册。我是希瑟·麦克，感谢收听。