Does Disney have a Star Wars problem?
发布时间 2023-04-20 20:27:35 来源
Earlier this week after leaving work, the only thing I wanted to do was watch the season finale of the Mandalorian. I'm a massive Star Wars fan, especially of Baby Yoda. In Disney, the company that owns Star Wars also owns one of my other favorite franchises, Marvel. I grew up loving the comics, watching the movies, and I even got a fantastic 4-Tatt too when I was younger. But lately, I feel like Star Wars and Marvel has just been overwhelming in pop culture. Baby Yoda, like, along with these things of Green Screen, but Baby Yoda is there. Yes, Baby Yoda is there. And then Spider-Man, no way home, goes on to be the biggest film of all time, makes like a gazillion dollars. It's so much fun. Look, it's been a fun time to be a nerd. But even for me, a lifelong fan, I've been wondering how much content is just too much. And I'm getting tired of it. This is a big question on the minds of Disney and its executives right now. Should they be taken that kind of fatigue seriously? Lately Disney's been experiencing some big financial hits.
本周早先我下班后，唯一想做的事情就是看《曼达洛人》的季终大结局。作为一名超级《星球大战》迷，我特别喜欢“小Yoda”。迪士尼公司拥有《星球大战》和我另一个最喜欢的经典系列——漫威。我从小就爱看漫画，看电影，年轻时还纹了一个“4超人”图腾。但最近，我觉得《星球大战》和漫威在流行文化中的影响力变得太大了。绿色布景和“小Yoda”联系在了一起。没错，正是“小Yoda”。而《蜘蛛侠：无归路》成为有史以来最赚钱的电影，收获了亿万美元的票房。这太有趣了。看，成为一名“宅男”是很有趣的。但即使对于我这个终身粉丝来说，我也开始想知道太多内容是否就太多了，我已经开始感到厌倦。这是现在迪士尼和公司高管所面临的一个大问题。他们是否应当认真对待这种疲劳感？最近，迪士尼遭受了一系列重大的经济打击。
They're going through layoffs. And CEO Bob Eiger recently said that the company may want to reconsider their investments in these franchises. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. It's Thursday, April 20. I'm your guest host, Arjun Singh. Today, I sit down with the Post Comic Book Culture Reporter, David Bettincourt, to ask him how much is too much Disney content.
他们正在进行裁员。最近，首席执行官鲍勃·艾格表示，公司可能需要重新考虑在这些特许经营权上的投资。这是华盛顿邮报的新闻室。今天是4月20日星期四。我是你的特别主持人阿尔杰恩·辛格。今天，我将和邮报漫画文化记者大卫·贝蒂科特坐下来，问他迪士尼的内容到底有多少是太多的。
David, can you help situate me because I feel like there is just so much content that comes out of Disney right now. It's like, what are the latest things that people are watching right now? Obviously, the Mandalorian, which just wrapped up its third season Wednesday, that starring Pedro Pescal and the lead role as Din Jaron, the Mandalorian, Mandalorians in the Star Wars universe, have been known as bounty hunters. But this series really gets more into the culture of who they are as a people in their home world. And obviously, the big hook for many for this show is Baby Yoda, who is real name is Grogu.
David，你能帮我了解一下迪士尼最近发布的内容吗？感觉现在有太多的内容了。人们正在关注什么最新的东西呢？显然是《曼达洛人》。它于周三结束了它的第三季，主演是佩德罗·帕斯卡，饰演曼达洛人丁·加隆。曼达洛人在星球大战宇宙中一直以赏金猎人而闻名。但这部剧真正深入探讨了他们作为人民和他们的家园世界的文化。显然，这部剧最大的卖点是“婴儿Yoda”，他的真名是格鲁古。
Watching the Mandalorians not just learning about how to fight, you also have to know how to navigate the galaxy, because you never know where you might be headed next. Ant-Man Quantamania, which introduces us to a lot of new characters, and now there's a lot of confusion if we're going to be seeing characters such as Kane the Conqueror in the future. I just think you should get to have a normal life. Dad, a guy dressed like a beach, tried to kill me in my room when I was six. I've never had a normal life.
观看曼达洛人不仅是学习如何打斗，还要了解如何在星系中航行，因为你永远不知道接下来会走向哪里。《蚁人3：量子纵横》介绍了我们很多新角色，现在有很多疑惑，我们是否会在未来看到像征服者凯恩这样的角色。我只是认为你应该有一个正常的生活。爸爸，一个穿着海滩装的人在我六岁时就试图在我的房间里杀死我。我从来没有过正常的生活。
When it comes to Disney Plus, I think what people need to understand about Disney Plus is it's a monster that constantly needs to be fed. And what they're doing right now is they found a way to expand the Star Wars universe via streaming series that is working for them. There's a whole lot of stuff that's going to spin out of the Mandalorian. We've already seen it with the Book of Boba Fett. We're going to see it with Asoka, starring Rosario Dawson, their rumors that key players and classic Star Wars characters like Thrawn, Manned Up, Showing Up. There's a lot of things going on there. But who's Thrawn? We'll have to do a totally separate show if you want me to get into who that guy is. But it's very interesting what's going on with Disney Plus right now.
谈到迪士尼加，我认为人们需要理解的是它是一个需要不断喂养的大型媒体平台。他们现在通过流媒体系列拓展《星球大战》的宇宙，这是对他们起作用的一种方式。许多东西都将由《曼达洛人》衍生出来。我们已经看到了《波巴·费特的书》。我们将会看到洛什卡星 Asoka 的系列，由罗萨里奥·道森主演。还有谣言称，像索恩和曼多这样的关键角色和经典《星球大战》人物也将出现。这里有很多事情正在发生。但是谁是索恩呢？如果你想我介绍一下这个家伙，我们需要做一个完全独立的节目。但目前迪士尼加正在发生的事情非常有趣。
When Disney first purchased Star Wars for $4 billion, the first thing everyone started screaming, wow, new movies. And then the new trilogy happened with Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver. I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy. I'll do this, Ben. Please don't go this way. No, no, you're still holding on. Let go. And it was very divisive and polarizing. And a lot of people thought that it didn't do anything new and spend too much time harking back and paying tribute to the past instead of giving them something new and shiny. The Mandalorian, on the other hand, is something very new and very shiny. And I'm not just talking about his fancy best-ghar armor that, you know, is so shiny and bright.
当迪士尼初次以40亿美元购买《星球大战》时，大家都感到非常兴奋，新电影的出现。接着就出现了由黛西·雷德利和亚当·德赖弗主演的新三部曲。我想让你和我一起统治星系，为它带来新秩序。本，请不要走这条路。不，你还在坚持。放手吧。新三部曲引起了很大的分歧和分化。很多人认为它没有带来什么新东西，反而花太多时间追忆和致敬过去，而没有给观众带来新的惊喜。而另一方面，《曼达洛人》则非常新颖和耀眼。我不仅仅指那件花哨华丽的贝斯卡盔甲，它也很闪亮。
What we've seen now with the Star Wars IP is that it's much more valuable to Disney as a streaming asset and something to continually feed Disney Plus. Is that enough though? No, it's not. So that's where the Marvel Cinematic Universe comes in. So now Disney Plus is not only a place where Marvel Cinematic Universe movies land when their theatrical run is over, but they've also decided that they're going to get into a series game as well, whether it be Moon Knight, Miss Marvel, things like that. And it's kind of saved them from the fact that no one's really interested in them making Star Wars movies anymore.
我们现在所看到的《星球大战》IP对迪士尼来说更有价值的是作为一种流媒体资产，以及持续提供给迪士尼Plus的内容。但这就足够了吗？不，这还不够。这就是漫威电影宇宙的作用所在。如此一来，迪士尼Plus不仅是漫威电影宇宙电影结束后的着陆点，他们还决定尝试一下电视剧的领域，不管是《月骑士》还是《奇妙女士》等等。这些项目是解救他们免受无人问津《星球大战》电影的窘境。
Yeah, you also have a lot of content though, you know, it's like, I think, and I've been someone who's mostly following a lot of these series, but it's like in the last few years, and I think there's nine TV series in the Star Wars universe. Then you've got eight other series that came out from the Marvel Universe.
是的，你也有很多内容。我觉得，作为一个一直追随这些系列的人，过去几年里，在《星球大战》宇宙里已经有九个电视剧系列，而漫威宇宙也有八个其他系列。
Like David, do you ever feel overwhelmed by the amount of content or do you ever feel like you're a father here, a very busy guy that you might not be able to just view all of this content and actually really understand what's going on in these worlds?
像David一样，你有没有感到在这么多的内容下压力倍增或者感觉自己好像是一个忙碌的父亲，可能无法查看所有这些内容并真正理解这些世界发生了什么？
I'm probably the wrong person to ask this because I, David Betancourt or Davy Betancourt or whatever language you speak, I love this stuff. And I'll be 43 years old this year. It's born in 1980. And I am of the generation that always wanted to see this stuff and we didn't get it because Hollywood wasn't a believer in this genre, whether you call it geek culture, comic culture, whatever you want to call it. So send it all to me. It doesn't mean I'm going to like all of it, but I will consume all of it without a problem.
或许我不是最适合回答这个问题的人，因为我叫David Betancourt或Davy Betancourt，或者你说什么语言都可以，我喜欢这些东西。今年我就要43岁了，出生于1980年。我是那一代人，总是希望能看到这些东西，但是我们没有得到，因为好莱坞不相信这种类型，无论你是称之为极客文化、漫画文化，还是其他你想叫的名字。所以把它们全部发送给我吧。这并不意味着我会喜欢所有的东西，但是我会毫不费力地消耗它们。
But I do understand there is a thought out there right now that Marvel has stretched themselves a little thin and you're starting to see that in terms of people complaining about special effects. Do you have too many projects? You know, if you're putting all your good people on what kind of forever and then Modok looks like crap in Ant-Man and Quantumania, is there a problem here? It doesn't work. It looks weird and it doesn't, it's horrible. It's terrible. It is so bad. It genuinely gives the CGI on the She-Hulk series a run for its money. That's how terrible it is.
但是我确实明白现在有一个想法在那里，认为漫威已经把自己的能力分散到了一些项目上，人们开始抱怨特效。你们有太多项目吗？如果您将所有优秀的员工都放在《永恒之旅》这样的项目上，那么在《蚁人3：量子狂欢》中的莫多克看起来像翔，这里面存在问题吗？它不起作用。它看起来奇怪而且非常差。它真的让《绿巨女》系列的CGI效果相形见绌，那就是多么糟糕。
It's just like the Avengers. An Avengers movie only works if you do it every few years. If you have an Avengers movie every single year, you're not going to have that hype in the billion dollar box office that comes from Endgame. What's happening now because we're getting streaming series from the Marvel Cinematic Universe on Disney Plus as well that are connected to it, it's almost like you don't have that disconnect that made the heart grow fonder whenever the next movie came out because the movie comes out and then like, you know, a week later, there's a streaming show.
这就像复仇者联盟一样。如果每几年推出一部复仇者联盟电影，那么它才能真正成功。如果你每年都推出一部复仇者联盟电影，那么就不会像《复仇者联盟：终局之战》那样带来数十亿美元的票房热潮。现在，我们在Disney Plus 还可以看到与漫威电影宇宙相关的流媒体系列，这使得不像电影那样观众需要等待一段时间，建立起距离感，反而近在咫尺，观众的好奇心更加得到了满足。
But if you're someone who's more of a casual fan or you've got a demand to Lauren because you were in love with the 50 year old baby known as Baby Yoda or Grogu. By the way, what do you call them, Baby Yoda? I call them Grogu now, but I had it because I'm a pro. Yeah.
但如果你只是一个普通的迷或者因为50岁的宝宝被称为“Baby Yoda”或“Grogu”而喜欢劳伦，那么这款产品可能更适合你。顺便问一下，你是如何称呼它们的？我现在称它们为Grogu，但我之所以能这样做是因为我是专业的。
But if you've been following the Mandalorian, which is now in its third season, you spent two seasons with Pedro Pascal and this adorable little alien child. They have a really emotional separation at the end of season three. He doesn't want to go with you. He wants your permission. He is strong with the force, but talent without training is nothing. I will give my life to protect the child, but he will not be safe until Master's is abilities. And if you tuned into season three, what all of a sudden Grogu is back, what happened to him? And then you find out that you actually had to watch a completely different show to find out how they reunite.
如果你一直在追看《曼达洛人》，现在已经播出了第三季，你曾经花了两个季节陪伴佩德罗·帕斯卡和这个可爱的小外星儿童。在第三季的结尾他们有一个非常感人的分离。他不想跟你走。他想得到你的同意。他有强大的力量，但没有训练的天赋是无用的。我会为了保护这个孩子而舍生忘死，但只有掌握了掌握大师的技能，他才会真正安全。如果你看了第三季，突然发现格鲁古回来了，发生了什么？然后你发现，实际上你需要看完另一个完全不同的节目，才能知道他们如何重聚。
Exactly. To find out how they reunited. And I guess first David, I'm wondering how do that play out with fans and critics? I mean, were people all on board with this idea? I think hardcore fans were because if you're a hardcore fan, you're likely going to watch the book of Boba Fett. Anyway, now Boba Fett is a character who briefly had very brief appearances in the original trilogy, but let's just face it, he looked really cool. And sometimes people just point, wow, that's a cool character. I want to know more about that guy. But they like created a new TV show just about him. Yes, just about him. I mean, it makes sense based off the popularity of the character. But if you were someone who was casually watching them, if you said Mandalorian is all the Star Wars ring, I'm going to do. And you said, I'm just here for the cute green baby. And you said, I don't need any of that other Star Wars. I'm just going to pick up a season three. You would be lost because these shows in a very Marvel Cinematic Universe like Way are connected. They take place in the same timeline. And the reunion between Grogu, aka Baby Yoda and the Mandalorian took place with then Boba Fett. So if you just started and hit play on Mandalorian season three without seeing that, you would have been a little confused.
没错。我们要找出他们是如何团聚的。我猜首先，戴维，我想知道粉丝和批评家对这个想法的看法如何？我的意思是，人们都赞同这个想法吗？我认为，硬核粉丝会赞同，因为如果你是一个硬核粉丝，你很可能会看《波巴·费特传》。不管怎样，现在波巴·费特是一个在原始三部曲中曾经短暂出现的角色，但是，让我们面对现实，他看起来真的很酷。有时候人们只是指着他说：哇，这是一个很酷的角色。我想知道更多关于这个家伙的事情。但是他们为他创造了一个新的电视节目。是的，只关于他。基于这个角色的受欢迎程度，这很有道理。但是，如果你只是随便看看，如果你说曼达洛人是所有星球大战环节中你要看的，我来过。如果你说，我只是为了可爱的绿色宝宝而来，我不需要任何其他的星球大战。我只会看第三季。如果你这样做，你会迷失方向，因为这些节目在非常像漫威电影宇宙的方式中相互连通。它们发生在相同的时间线上。格罗古（又名Baby Yoda）和曼达洛人的团聚发生在波巴·费特之后。因此，如果你在没有看到这个的情况下开始看曼达洛人第三季，你会有点困惑。
You know, let's face it, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, not Star Wars, but they've made interconnected storytelling a very big deal. And Disney and Lucasfilm, they've made it clear that what they're building with the Star Wars universe when Disney plays in terms of streaming series, it's all going to be connected. So if you don't watch everything, you might miss something.
你知道，面对事实吧，漫威电影宇宙，不是星球大战，但是他们已经把相互关联的故事讲得非常重要了。迪士尼和卢卡斯影业已经明确表示，在迪士尼的流媒体系列中所打造的星球大战宇宙，一定会相互关联。因此，如果你不全都去看，可能就会错过某些关键情节。
What is Disney really get from having this massive investment? Because it does sound like a bold game. It basically to say to fans hardcore and casual, you need to keep up with us because there are things that are going to happen that are going to impact the other series. What is the game for Disney from having a series of interconnected things? And is it working for them? You know, if I ever get to the point where one day I purchase something for $4 billion, I'm pretty sure I'm going to want to get the most out of that purchase as possible.
迪士尼从这样大规模的投资中获得了什么呢？因为这听起来确实很大胆。它基本上是对死忠粉和休闲爱好者说，你需要跟上我们的节奏，因为有些事情即将发生，将影响其他系列。对于迪士尼来说，拥有一系列相互关联的事物的游戏是什么？并且它对他们有效吗？你知道的，如果有一天我花40亿美元购买了某物，我肯定会想要尽可能地从购买中获得最大的利益。
I do understand the mindset of saying, oh, this is sacred, the more you do, the less valuable it becomes, but they've got to get their money back. And they're doing it with these streaming series. I think that for now, it's a sustainable model. We don't have, you know, they're not burning pitchforks outside saying no more baby Yoda or anything like that. So that would be a dark day. Yeah. Let's hope we never get to that, you know, multivircial future or whatever that may be. But I think Marvel has a little bit more of a headache on their hand than Disney right now.
我理解人们会认为：哦，这是神圣的，你越是做，它就越没有价值，但他们必须拿回他们的钱。他们正在通过这些流媒体系列来做到这一点。我认为，目前这是一个可持续的模型。我们没有人在外面举着火炬说不再给我们更多的Yoda宝宝之类的东西。所以那会是一个黑暗的日子。是的。让我们希望我们永远不会进入那个多维度未来或者无论它是什么。但我认为，现在Marvel比迪士尼更头疼一些。
But Dave Filoni, what he did with the Clone Wars, for example, or the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars was an animated series that takes place between the prequels, episodes two and three. And who is Dave Filoni? And what is he, what role is he playing all of us?
但是，戴夫·菲洛尼是做了在《克隆人战争》的那件事情。《克隆人战争》是一部动画系列，发生在前传的第二部和第三部之间。那么，戴夫·菲洛尼是谁？他在我们当中扮演什么角色？
Dave Filoni is, I think Filoni is really the Star Wars genius, if you will, the Star Wars beautiful mind. Dave Filoni can make you care about something in Star Wars that you might not have carried about before. The Clone Wars was so good as an animated series that now people look at the prequels which were once very devices a different way. And what that builds is trust. And I think that's why I think Star Wars is going to be fine right now because people are aware who's driving the ship here.
我认为Dave Filoni就是真正的星球大战天才，可以说是星球大战美妙的大脑。他能让你关注的星球大战内容可能以前你并不感兴趣，他将克隆人战争制作成的动画片如此出色，现在人们看待起先前非常分裂的前传，看法都不同了。这建立了信任，所以我认为现在的星球大战会好起来，因为人们知道谁在驾驶这艘大船。
Yes, it's a business at the end of the day. You've got to create new content for people to continue to want to pay 20 bucks a month for this service. But people trust the people who are behind the wheel. After the break, we traveled to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and we explore why Disney's CEO might be getting tired of it. We'll be right back.
在最后，这是一项业务。你必须不断制作新内容，让人们愿意为这项服务支付20美元每月的费用。但人们相信那些掌控公司的人。接下来，我们将前往漫威电影宇宙，探索为什么迪士尼的首席执行官可能会对它感到厌倦。马上回来。
Marvel, the flip side of Disney's Temple franchises, I would say Marvel is struggling with the opposite problem, those movies and TV shows are incredibly interconnected with each other. And you had mentioned earlier, Ant-Man Quantumania, the newest Marvel film starting Paul Rudd as Ant-Man, it takes place right after Avengers Infinity War where Thanos played by Josh Brolin disappeared half the Marvel Universe including Ant-Man.
我认为，作为迪士尼神庙特许经营的反面，漫威面临着一个相反的问题，那就是电影和电视节目之间非常相互关联。你之前提到过最新的漫威电影《蚁人3：量子危机》，保罗·鲁德饰演蚁人，它的剧情发生在《复仇者联盟3：无限战争》之后，这部电影中，乔什·布洛林饰演的灭霸瞬间消失了漫威宇宙的一半，其中包括蚁人。
What was Disney's hope for this movie? It seems like it really did not live up to the hype that they were pushing for it. So if I'm Kevin Feige, the president of Marvel Studios and I'm looking at the last 15 years of theatrical releases, one thing I can see is an individual superhero movie like an Ant-Man movie or Captain America movie, I want that to do at least half a million. And if that happens great and when I release an Avengers movie, I want that to make a billion. And so far that's pretty much tracked and in the case.
迪士尼对这部电影的希望是什么？似乎它真的没有达到他们所推崇的炒作水平。所以，假如我是漫威影视制片厂的总裁凯文·费吉，我看着过去15年的院线发行情况，其中一个我可以看到的事情是像《蚁人》电影或《美国队长》电影这样的超级英雄电影，我希望至少有500万人观看。如果这样做了很棒，当我推出一个《复仇者联盟》电影时，我希望它能赚10亿美元。到目前为止，这大致符合实际。
Ant-Man Quantumania, first of all, the fact that we have had three, not one, not two, but three, tres, Ant-Man movies is to me one of Marvel Studios biggest achievements because he's a character that hardly anyone cares about. I have been reading comics for most of the time that I've been on this earth, never cared about Ant-Man until the MCU and that's someone who's a heavy comic book reader.
《蚁人：量子纪元》首先，我们已经有三部蚁人电影，而不是一个、不是两个，而是三个，这对于我来说是漫威工作室最大的成就之一，因为他是一个几乎没有人关心的角色。我从我记事起就一直在看漫画，从来没有关心过蚁人，直到漫威电影宇宙，这是一个重度漫画读者的看法。
Having said that, there was a little bit more hype behind this third Ant-Man film, Quantum ania, because of who it was introducing into the Marvel Cinematic Universe and that was Kang the Conqueror, a very serious big time Avengers villain played by Jonathan Majors.
话虽如此，第三部《蚁人》电影《量子疯狂》却因它介绍了一个非常严肃的大反派——由乔纳森·梅杰斯扮演的铁甲蚁（Kang the Conqueror），引起了更多的热烈讨论和期待，因为他将被引入漫威电影宇宙中。
You're an Avenger. Have I killed you before? What? They all blew together after a while. You're not the one with the hammer. It's Thor. We can get into everything that's going with Jonathan Majors in his real life, personal life, but they basically took Ant-Man 3 and said, we're going to introduce the next major villain and show why he's such a big deal. And I thought they did a good job with that. Majors as Kang was great.
你是复仇者联盟的一员。我以前杀过你吗？什么？他们最终都被打败了。你不是那个拿着锤子的人，那是雷神索尔。我们可以探讨乔纳森·麦杰斯在他的真实生活和个人生活中发生的一切，但他们基本上把《蚁人3》改编成为介绍下一个主要反派，并展示他为何如此重要的影片。我认为他们做得很出色。麦杰斯扮演的康格很出色。
It's a character that gives him an opportunity to play a lot of different versions of himself. It's a lot of fun. But at the end of the day, it's still an Ant-Man movie.
这个角色让他有机会扮演许多不同版本的自己，非常有趣。但归根结底，这仍然是一部《蚁人》电影。
I think there was this vibe that Ant-Man Quantumania needs to make a billion dollars, but it's still an individual superhero movie. And when I say individual, I mean, it's a singular superhero movie and not an Avengers movie.
我认为有一种感觉认为《蚁人：量子时空》需要创造10亿美元票房，但它仍然是一部独立的超级英雄电影。当我说独立时，我意思是，它是一部个人超级英雄电影，而不是复仇者联盟电影。
You had talked about Jonathan Majors. He has recently been steeped in a lot of controversy, though. Can you just explain what's been happening around Jonathan Majors and Marvel?
您曾谈到过乔纳森·梅杰斯，然而他最近卷入了许多争议。您能否简单解释一下在乔纳森·梅杰斯和漫威方面到底发生了什么？
Well, first, he was cast as Kang, and Kevin Feige, the president of Marvel Studios, Peyton Reed, the director of the Ant-Man trilogy, who played a big part. I spoke to Peyton Reed in some of my reporting. He played a big part in bringing Jonathan Majors in to play Kang. He's supposed to be the next big guy. They have two Avengers movies coming out in 2025 and 2026.
首先，他被选中扮演康格。漫威影业总裁凯文·费吉和蚁人三部曲导演佩顿·里德在选角方面都起到了重要作用。我在一些采访中和佩顿·里德交谈过，他在将乔纳森·梅杰斯引进扮演康格方面起到了很大的作用。他被认为是未来的一大角色。他们计划在2025年和2026年推出两部复仇者联盟电影。
Avengers The Kang Dynasty, Avengers Secret Wars. Those movies are going to be big events. If you've read the comics that are based on those movies, that those movies will be based on, you know that there's some big things about the happen.
《复仇者联盟：康氏王朝》和《复仇者联盟秘密战争》将成为很大的事件。如果您已经阅读过这些电影基于的漫画，就会知道将会发生一些大事情。
So all of a sudden, Jonathan Majors has recently been in some legal trouble with the domestic dispute. So there hasn't been much of a response from Marvel Studios right now, but Jonathan Majors was recently arraigned in New York on several charges of assault and harassment of a woman he's reportedly in a relationship with.
最近，约翰·梅杰斯突然陷入了家庭纠纷的法律麻烦中。目前，漫威工作室还没有做出太多回应，但据报道，约翰·梅杰斯最近在纽约因袭击和骚扰一名他据说与之有关系的女性而被起诉。
Obviously, this case has yet to be resolved. You have Majors attorneys saying that he's completely innocent. And what Marvel Studios is going to have to do is let this case resolve itself and then make a decision on this is still our guy going forward or perhaps we need to go in another direction.
显然，这个案件还没有解决。你有Majors的律师声称他完全无辜。复仇者联盟工作室需要让这个案件自我解决，然后决定是否继续让他担任我们的人或者我们需要另寻他人。
But it's way too soon to tell what will happen from that. You know, Marvel Studios and Kevin Feige, Peyton Reed, everyone involved with bringing Jonathan on board basically has to let this play out and make whatever they think is the best decision from there.
但是现在说发生什么还为时过早。你知道，漫威电影工作室和凯文·费奇、佩顿·里德以及所有参与引进乔纳森的人，基本上都必须让这个情况自然而然地发展，然后根据那里的情况做出最好的决定。
Yeah. And it's like the way that these things are so interconnected with Jonathan Majors, for example, if you have a problem with him in one film, you will now have to deal with several other properties that, you know, for lack of a better word could be tainted by someone's unsavory personal life or whatever has been going on. But how does Marvel fix that problem?
是的。这些事情与乔纳森·马杰斯如此紧密相关，例如，如果你在一部电影中与他有问题，现在你将不得不处理几个其他的财产，你知道，缺乏更好的词可能会被某人不道德的个人生活或其他事情所污染。但是，漫威如何解决这个问题？
I mean, what does this do to the rest of their franchise and is there a way to address this without completely upending the entire franchise?
我的意思是，这对他们的整个事业体系有什么影响，是否有方法可以解决这个问题而不完全颠覆整个事业体系？
There's no one person, there's no one character, there's no one actor, even going back to Robert Downey's Iron Man that's bigger than the machine. The vast vault of comics that inspire the Marvel Cinematic Universe is so grand and so inspirational and filled with so many incredible stories. What would be the most dramatic thing to happen with the Jonathan Majors stuff right now? That'd be recast? They'd done that before.
没有一个人，没有一个角色，没有一个演员，即使回溯到罗伯特·唐尼的钢铁侠，也没有一个比这个机器更大的存在。启发漫威电影宇宙的漫画宝库如此庞大、鼓舞人心，并充满了许多令人难以置信的故事。现在乔纳森·梅杰斯的事情中最戏剧性的事情是什么？重新选择另一个演员？他们以前已经这样做了。
They didn't win Terence Howard initially played Rody War Machine, basically the right hand man to Iron Man, and then he was played by Don Cheetle. So this is all stuff that Marvel Studios has been through before.
他们没有赢得特伦斯·霍华德最初扮演了罗迪·战争机器，基本上是钢铁侠的得力助手，然后由唐·钛尔接替。所以这些都是漫威电影工作室之前遇到的事情。
Now obviously Rody wasn't the big bad guy. He was a supporting character. This is a little bit more out in the open because it's involving someone who would be the big bad villain that all of your future movies over the next five years are built around. Having said that before, it's still a road Marvel Studios has walked before.
很明显，罗迪不是大反派。他只是一个配角。这一点更加明显，因为它涉及到你未来五年电影中的大反派，所有的电影都围绕他展开。不过，我们之前已经说过了，这是漫威电影工作室已经走过的路。
Does it seem like there's a fatigue from fans, casual or hardcore? Like I know that Bob Eiger, the new CEO of Disney, he's been making comments about how the company should reel back from Marvel and Star Wars. I guess I'm wondering why what would inspire the CEO of Disney to kind of start saying that we should rethink these things?
看起来球迷们（无论是入门级还是迷控级）似乎感到了疲劳？就像我知道迪士尼新CEO Bob Eiger一直在发表评论，说公司应该收缩漫威和星战。我想知道的是，是什么启发了迪士尼CEO开始说我们应该重新思考这些事情？
Is viewership going down? Is there a cause for concern for how these franchises are going?
收视率会下降吗？这些特许经营品牌的状况令人担忧吗？
I think Bob Eiger had a good point in terms. I think he's saying a lot of repetitiveness. I think he looks at these characters and is maybe saying, does every single one of our superheroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe need three movies? Does everyone need a trilogy? Is that the card that gets stamped for you to become an official Avenger that you have three individual movies?
我认为Bob Eiger在这方面有一个好观点。我觉得他在说很多重复的话。我想他是在看这些角色，可能在说：难道漫威电影宇宙中每个超级英雄都需要三部电影吗？每个人都需要一个三部曲吗？你必须拥有三部个人电影才能成为一个正式的复仇者联盟成员吗？
Maybe that's not, especially in the era of Disney Plus where you also have now serialized shows being created that are connected to this universe as well. In the case of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I think what they may be suffering from right now is maybe there's too much content.
在迪士尼加入了连续剧这一元素的时代，也许就不再是这样了。尤其对于漫威电影宇宙而言，他们现在可能正在经历内容过于丰富的困境。
Maybe what they've reached is a cap of new people coming in. Maybe now new people are coming in and saying, well, if I have to start at Iron Man in 2008 and get all the way up to here, that's a lot.
也许他们已经达到了新人进入的人数上限。现在，新人可能会说：如果我从2008年的《钢铁侠》开始，一直追到现在，那太困难了。
Maybe what could be happening is the audience isn't growing as much because you're walking into something that's a story that's been taking place over the last 15 years. Okay, but David, let's zoom out. Look at the long view of all of this. What is Disney's endgame? What is Disney's vision for all this? Where do they go from here?
可能发生的情况是观众群体没有增长，因为你们进入的是一个已经持续了15年的故事。好的，但是大卫，让我们放大视野看待这个问题。看看所有这些的长远规划是什么？迪士尼对这一切的愿景是什么？他们接下来会去哪里？
Well, we now know that when it comes to Star Wars, they want it to be a combination of streaming and they really want to get back in the theaters. There's a theatrical plan as long as continuing streaming on Disney Plus. When it comes to Marvel, that's where I think you're going to have to start maybe going back to the drawing board a little bit. The formula is still the same right now. Individual Marvel superhero movie eventually leads to an Avengers team up. This will be multiple times that we've seen that formula now.
我们现在知道，对于《星球大战》系列，他们希望它是流媒体和将回到电影院的组合。他们有一个在电影院的计划，同时还将在Disney Plus继续流媒体。当涉及到漫威时，我认为可能需要回到草图阶段重新考虑。现在的公式仍然是一样的。漫威超级英雄电影最终导致复仇者联盟的组合。这将是我们看到这一公式的多次了。
There seems to possibly be getting to a point where we're saying, do we need to see something else? We've heard Bob Iger say maybe not so much expansion within franchises and more new characters popping up. It's something that they might have to consider, especially with DC Studios and James Gunn on the rise. But even with all of these interconnected stories, things like having to watch Book of Boba Fett to get a key plot point, that's still resonating with fans. It's still working for them. It is for the dedicated hardcore fans who would be a part of this no matter what.
现在可能会出现这样一种情况，我们会想问自己，我们是否需要看到别的东西？我们听到过鲍勃·艾格尔说过，可能不需要在系列中扩展得太多，而需要出现更多新角色。这是他们可能需要考虑的事情，特别是迪士尼和詹姆斯·冈崛起的情况下。但是即使有这些相互关联的故事，像是必须观看《博巴·费特的书》才能获得关键情节，这仍然与粉丝们共鸣。这对于那些无论如何都会参与其中的狂热粉丝来说仍然是在起作用的。
When I say that, I mean, a fan that's going to press play and stream regardless of what a critic says, they're just going to dive in for that particular section of fans. Yes, things are fine. But if you're looking to stir things a little bit up for the general public person that may or may not be interested in Marvel or maybe leaning on what that movie critic says, then maybe you need to start coming up with a few more new ideas. What about other different things that people want to make?
当我说这个时，我指的是一种粉丝，他们会按下播放键并直接观看，不管评论家们怎么说，他们只会为了这一部影片而投入。是的，情况还不错。但是，如果你想为那些可能对漫威不感兴趣或依赖电影评论家意见的普通观众制造一些轻微的激动，那么也许你需要想出一些更多的新点子。还有其他人想要创造的不同的事情呢？
I am thinking about Andorr, which Tony Gilroy, the creator, has before said, is not a Star Wars fan. I guess I just wonder, well, if you're not a Star Wars fan, why not just create a cool sci-fi, spy thriller, and then I wonder, was that option even on the table?
我在思考Andorr，它是由创作者Tony Gilroy之前曾经说过他不是星球大战的粉丝。我猜我就是想知道，如果你不是星球大战的粉丝，为什么不创造一个酷炫的科幻间谍惊悚片呢？然后我想知道，这个选择是否曾经放在桌面上过？
What do you think? First of all, I think it's hilarious that someone that doesn't like Star Wars made the best Star Wars thing out there. That's just very, I guess you would call that the force, but it's very funny. There is room within this genre to take an unorthodox approach. We've seen that with Andorr. We've really seen it with what James Gunn did with Guardians of the Galaxy in terms of making those films just as much about music, then about superpowers and superheroes, and deep space and all that things.
你认为呢？首先，我认为很有趣的是，一个不喜欢星球大战的人创造了最好的星球大战作品。这可能被称为“原力”，但非常有趣。在这个类型中有足够的空间采取非传统的方式。我们在《安多尔》中看到了这一点。在《银河护卫队》中，詹姆斯·冈恩通过将这些电影与音乐同等重要，以及超级能力、超级英雄和深空等等融为一体，以非传统的方式呈现了这一点。
There is sort of a template that needs to be followed to keep the wheels churning. But there is room for people like Tony Gilroy to come in and say, let me take these characters and maybe do something a little different. And maybe that means using, obviously, you're probably not going to do that with Superman or Batman. You just have to find the right character to where you can play like that. Because if you take Superman and say, oh, well, I want Clark Kent to be a sports reporter, people are going to scream and say, no, that's not how it is in the comics. You have to find a character that people don't care if you take that kind of chance.
有一种模板需要遵循以保持事情运转。但是还有空间让像托尼·吉尔罗伊这样的人去做一些有些不同的事情，可以利用这些角色。可能这意味着要选对角色，你可能不会这样做超人或蝙蝠侠。你需要找到一个人物，让你可以像那样玩。因为如果你拿超人来当例子，说：“哦，我希望克拉克·肯特成为一位体育记者，人们会尖叫说，不，漫画中不是这样的。“你必须找到一个人物，人们不会介意你冒这样的险的。
Look, if anyone at DC's listening, if Clark Kent wants to be a podcaster, I would personally have no problem with it over my dead body. You and I were talking about this, we're two old men who still very love Michael Keaton as Batman. The only Batman. The only Batman exactly. But I want to kind of end this conversation by talking about the future.
看，如果DC的任何人在听着，如果Clark Kent想成为一名播客，那么我个人不会有任何问题，除非我死了。你和我正在谈论这个问题，我们是两个仍然非常喜欢Michael Keaton作为蝙蝠侠的老人。唯一的蝙蝠侠。实际上是唯一的蝙蝠侠。但我想通过谈论未来来结束这次对话。
These franchises have been such a part of our culture for generations. You have kids, David, you teach college kids. Do you see these franchises having sticking power with the future, young people and up and coming people? Do you think that they're going to be able to enjoy these franchises the way someone like you has?
这些连锁店已经成为我们文化的一部分，传承至今已有数代人。David，你有孩子，你也教授大学生。你认为这些连锁店会在未来持续受到年轻人和新兴群体的欢迎吗？你认为他们能像你这样享受这些连锁店带来的乐趣吗？
I think so. One thing about the younger kids, 20 and younger that consume this stuff, the difference between them and our age group is they're not really reading the comics. We grew up without cinematic universes being connected together and lasting for 15 years. That's all they know. So they're just consuming it from, oh, this is this cool movie and cool Disney Plus show that's always been around.
我也这么认为。年龄在20岁以下的年轻人看这种东西的时候，一个显著的区别是他们并不真的看漫画。我们成长的时候没有像现在这样把电影宇宙联系在一起并延续15年的情况。而这正是他们只知道的事情。所以，他们只是把它当做一部很酷的电影和一部一直存在的酷迪士尼+节目来消费。
Whereas maybe not you, but me, I'm saying we're consuming it in a different way. The kids think it's very cool that this stuff is here, but I love the perspective they have of not being bound because I teach a course at the University of Maryland on comic book culture and how to cover it in media. And the thing that I'm most amazed by is a part of that class, I'm teaching them about the comics that inspire this stuff. Nothing about the comics, but know everything about what has been adapted from them in terms of movies, streaming, whatever the case may be. So I think that younger generation is kind of just saying, you know, this is cool. I'ma watch it while we're kind of like looking to be a little more opinionated and have a little more skin in the game because we've read everything that inspired what all this stuff is.
也许不是你，而是我，我认为我们在以不同的方式消费它。孩子们觉得这些东西很酷，但我喜欢他们没有被束缚的观点，因为我在马里兰大学教授漫画文化以及如何在媒体中涵盖它。我最惊奇的是，我在课堂上教给他们的有关这些作品启发的漫画中的一部分，而不是关于漫画本身，而是了解从中改编的电影、流媒体等方面的一切。因此，我认为年轻一代只是说，你知道，这很酷。我会看它，而我们则会更加有自己的观点，并且在游戏中有更多的参与度，因为我们已经阅读了启发所有这些东西的一切。
One, it sounds like from what you're saying, they're unafraid of jumping into something, even if they don't have all of the context. Absolutely. Back to what I was bringing up earlier. Maybe that's not even really a problem with people at all. And maybe the lesson is that you should just jump in and see if you like it. At the end of the day, the great thing about this society is, you know, if you don't like it, you don't have to watch it. If you don't want to read it, you don't have to read it.
根据你所说的，它听起来像他们不害怕冒险尝试事物，即使他们没有足够的背景知识。确实如此。回到我之前提到的话题上。也许这根本不是人们的问题。也许这个教训就是：你应该跳进去看看你是否喜欢它。最终，这个社会的好处在于，如果你不喜欢它，你就不必看它。如果你不想读它，你就不必读它。
But we're very much at a point where somebody doesn't like something and they want to scream about it. And that's fine. I envy the kids that watch this stuff because they don't know what's going to happen. You know, guys are age. They're watching these movies and there's always some plot point somewhere from the comics that we know we're going to stick in. I would love to have the perspective of, you know, watching this stuff and not know what's going to go on. I think that's the big advantage the kids have in terms of their enjoyment factor of this because they're just diving in blind.
现在我们已经到了一个点，某些人对某些事情不满意，他们就想大声抱怨。这没关系。我羡慕看这些东西的孩子，因为他们不知道会发生什么。你知道吗，我们这些年龄的人。他们看这些电影，总会有一些从漫画中知道的情节点，我们知道我们要加进去的。我很想拥有这样的角度，你知道，看这些东西而不知道接下来会发生什么。我认为这是孩子们在享受这些东西方面的优势，因为他们是盲目地跳进去的。
Well, David, it's always a pleasure to get to talk to you about this. I hope that you enjoy the next, everything that's coming out from Marv. I have to watch it either way. Yeah.
嗨，大卫，很高兴能和你讨论这个话题。希望你会喜欢马尔夫（Marv）即将发布的所有内容。无论如何，我都会去观看。
Well, thanks for being on the show with us today. David Bettencourt reports on comic book culture for the post. That's it for post reports. Thanks for listening.
非常感谢您今天来到我们的节目。David Bettencourt为该报告导演漫画书文化的内容。节目报告就到此为止。感谢您的收听。
Today's episode was made by Sean Carter. It was edited by Reena Flores and Maggie Pennman. It was produced by me and thanks to Alana Gordon.
今天的节目由肖恩·卡特制作。由里纳·弗洛雷斯和玛吉·佩恩曼编辑。由我制作，感谢艾莉安娜·戈登的协助。
I also wanted to remind any fans of our show. Bettencourt reports was nominated for three Webby Awards. The Webby's honored the best stuff on the internet and you, the public, get to pick the winners. Today's the last day to vote for the show and also be sure to vote for Broken Dores, a Washington Post podcast. We'll have a link to this in our show notes.
我也想提醒我们节目的粉丝们，Bettencourt报告获得了三个Webby奖提名。Webby奖表彰互联网上最好的东西，你们观众可以选出获奖者。今天是最后一天投票，还要记得为《破碎的门》（华盛顿邮报播客）投票。我们会在节目注释中提供链接。
I'm Arjun Singh. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.
我是阿尔吉恩辛格。明天我们会带来更多来自《华盛顿邮报》的新闻故事。