It’s Time to Fine-Tune Performance Management
发布时间 2022-09-20 14:00:23 来源
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Welcome to the HBR IDA cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Kurt Nickish.
欢迎来到来自哈佛商业评论的HBR IDA广播节目。我是 Kurt Nickish。
Technology now allows businesses to project, estimate, measure, and report on all kinds of business functions, and they use it heavily in performance management. It seems like a good idea, set a broad set of standards across the organization, measure those, and you'll have a fairway to judge employees' work and improvement year over year.
现在的技术使企业能够预测、估算、衡量和报告所有种类的业务功能，并且在绩效管理中大量使用。听起来像一个好主意，建立一个广泛的标准在整个组织中进行衡量，这样就可以评判员工的工作和改进，从而有一个合理的判断标准每年。
Of course that's easier said than done, and today's cast says that many companies are using rubrics that take an overly narrow and short-term view, and that one major downside of this is, they kill collaboration.
当然，这仅仅是说起来容易，做起来难。今天的演员们告诉我们，许多公司在使用过于狭隘且短期的标准，这会导致一个重要的缺陷，即它们破坏了合作。
Heidi Gardner is a distinguished fellow at Harvard Law School, and she co-wrote along with Ivan Matviak of Clearwater Analytics. The HBR article, Performance Management, Shouldn't Kill Collaboration.
海蒂·加德纳是哈佛法学院的杰出学者，她与清水分析的伊万·马特维亚克合著了《经营绩效不应破坏协作》的哈佛商业评论文章。
Hi Heidi, thanks for coming on the show.
嗨，海蒂，谢谢你来参加节目。
Hi, thanks for having me.
你好，感谢你接待我。
So first just to get some definitions out of the way, we're talking here about individual performance management, but trying to make it a line and reflect business level goals. Is that right?
首先，让我们澄清一下定义。我们在谈论个人绩效管理，但是尝试将其转化为生产线，并反映商业目标。你这样理解对吗？
What we're talking about is really trying to figure out how you measure individual people in a way that they are focused on accomplishing what matters to their organization, say their company, and what matters to their company ultimately should be things like customer satisfaction.
我们正在讨论的是如何以一种方式衡量个人，使他们集中精力完成对组织，比如他们的公司重要的事情，而公司最终关心的事情应该是客户满意度之类的事情。
Right now, what we find is so many companies are focused on individual metrics that just focus people on what's right in front of their nose, and sometimes that runs counter to what's good for the company or good for the customers.
现在我们发现，很多公司都专注于个别度量标准，这只是让人们关注眼前的事情，有时候这与公司或客户的利益是相违背的。
But what's right in front of their nose should be what's good for the company and for customers, right?
但是，他们眼前的东西应该是对公司和客户有益的，对吗？
So right now, what we find is that a lot of people have goals that are suboptimal. So take, for example, a sales function. A lot of sales people are incentivized to simply increase revenue.
现在我们发现很多人的目标都不够优化。就拿销售职位来说，很多销售人员只是被激励增加收入。
Right. But they might not necessarily be increasing revenue on the right set of products, or they might be so far out ahead of their organization that they're drumming up sales that their operations group can't actually fulfill.
没错，但他们可能不一定在正确的产品组合上增加收入，或者他们可能超前于其组织，推销销售，但实际上其运营团队无法履行。
Right. So they might be behind production schedule, but the sales people are still motivated to go out and sell more. But that's not good for customer service because then there's going to be a big delay.
好的，可能他们落后于生产进度，但销售人员仍然积极出去销售更多产品。但这不利于客户服务，因为这样会导致很大的延误。
There are times when the sales people are so focused on closing a deal and moving on to the next one that they don't take time to document what the client actually needs. Or in fact, they might not even take the time to really explore what's best for the client. They're focused on selling what they get motivated and rewarded for selling. And in those instances, they're driving certain metrics like revenue, but it's not really sustainable. It's not strategic. And we have to realize that not every dollar is an equal dollar.
有时候销售人员会太专注于完成交易并迅速转向下一个客户，以至于他们没有时间记录客户实际上需要什么。实际上，他们甚至可能没有真正探究哪种方案最适合客户。他们专注于销售能激发和奖励他们的产品。在这些情况下，他们推动某些指标如收入，但这并不是真正可持续的。这不是战略性的。我们必须认识到，不是每个销售额都是平等的。
I want to understand how we came to this point. Right. Like how were performance management systems set up? And what is it that works about them? And where do we start to see where it breaks down?
我想了解我们是如何到达这个点的。对的，就像绩效管理系统是如何设置的？它们有哪些有效的地方？我们从哪里开始看到它们的崩溃？
There's a real logic in measuring people's individual outcomes because they have control over them, or at least they have a great degree of influence over them. And the logic there is that we only want to hold people accountable for the outcomes that are within their control. And so for a salesperson, that could be, you know, how hard do you work? How many customers do you chase? How many deals do you close?
衡量个人成果确有逻辑，因为他们能够掌控这些成果，或至少有非常大的影响力。这个逻辑在于，我们只希望对那些能够被他们掌控的成果进行追责。对于销售人员而言，这包括他们的工作强度、拓展的客户数量以及完成的交易数量。
But what it fails to account for is the second and third order effects of them accomplishing their goals without really understanding how that has an effect on the larger organization and on the customers. And so what we're advocating in this article is to take a broader perspective, not in substitute for individual goals, but in addition to.
但它没有考虑到他们实现目标的第二和第三阶效应，并没有真正理解这对整个组织和客户产生的影响。因此，我们在本文中主张采取更广泛的视角，不替换个人目标，而是额外增加视角。
And so we really want people to leaders to start with what is it that the organization is trying to accomplish? So is it customer service? And reverse engineering and saying how do people actually need to work together? In our parlance, you know, how do they engage in smart collaboration bringing in exactly the right people and departments, regardless of what part of the organization they sit in in order to create the best strategic outcome?
所以我们真的希望领导者从组织想要达成的目标开始。比如说是客户服务？然后反向工程思考，看看人们应该如何合作？用我们的方式来说，他们应该如何进行智慧协作，将恰当的人和部门引入，无论他们在组织的哪个部分，以便创造最佳的战略结果。
And that's what a lot of performance management systems are missing right now is that more macro view of getting people to work together in order to accomplish these bigger tasks. And we're still focused almost exclusively on those narrow individualistic ones.
很多绩效管理系统现在所缺少的，就是更宏观的视野，即让人们一起合作完成更大的任务。而我们仍然几乎完全关注这些狭窄的个人主义任务。
There is some real rationale in that that you don't want to hold people accountable for accomplishing tasks that are so far outside their domain that they feel helpless to influence them. And so it really is critical that you have this multi-part scorecard and you're holding people accountable for their individual outcomes as well as for the part they play in accomplishing these bigger objectives.
其中确实有一些合理性，就是你不想迫使人们对超出他们影响力范围的任务负责，那样他们会感到无力。因此，重要的是你必须有一个多部分的记分卡，让人们对他们的个人绩效以及他们在实现更大目标中所扮演的角色负责任。
What are some of the other common mistakes that companies make currently that that what you're suggesting would help fix? One of the common mistakes that companies make now is confusing collaboration with cross-selling. And that's a subtle way to think about the difference in back to the salespeople. What is it that we're motivating them to do?
目前公司经常犯的另一个普遍错误是把合作和跨销售混淆起来。这是一种微妙的思考方式，可以让销售人员回到销售的本质。我们要激励他们做什么？
So if you're thinking about a customer-centric mindset, you really want to motivate your salespeople or customer service people to understand where's the value that we are creating for those customers? Is it genuinely going to create extra value for them if they buy additional products or services from us?
如果你想要实现以客户为中心的思维方式，你真的需要激励你的销售人员或客户服务人员去理解我们为客户创造的价值在哪里？如果他们从我们这里购买更多的产品或服务，这是否真的会为他们创造额外的价值呢？
If you can justify why that's true, it might be because we can offer them a bundle price. It might be because we can understand their business better if we're in there serving different parts of their organization. It might be the deeper relationships we establish creates more trust. And so we can work better as partners together. There's a whole variety of reasons why a customer might be better off expanding their relationship with a supplier.
如果您能证明这是真的，那可能是因为我们能够为他们提供打包价格。也可能是因为如果我们在不同部门服务的话，我们会更好地理解他们的业务。可能是因为我们建立更深入的关系，从而建立更多的信任。因此，我们可以更好地成为伙伴一起合作。一个客户可能从扩展他们与供应商的关系中获得更好的好处，原因有很多。
But the salesperson needs to understand where that value is created and be able to articulate that to the customer and then only pursue those opportunities that truly add value to the customer. So they're bringing in a broader range of services, they're bringing in more products, they're bringing more expertise, and through that they're creating value for the client.
但销售人员需要理解价值从哪里产生，并能够向客户清晰地表述，然后只追求真正为客户增加价值的机会。因此，他们正在引入更广泛的服务，引进更多产品，引进更多专业知识，并通过这些为客户创造价值。
If what they're motivated to do is simply sell more, more, more, tick the box, how many products did you sell, how many divisions did you bring in? That's a very self-serving way to go about serving the clients.
如果他们的动机只是为了卖更多的产品，如何勾选选框，你卖了多少产品，你带来了多少部门？这是一种非常自私的方式来为客户服务。
What's one of your favorite things that you've seen where you've just seen this really go awry, right? That the personal incentives in some of the companies that you've worked with are researched. Do you have a favorite story?
你见过的有哪些看起来非常失败的事情之一是什么呢？你曾经与一些公司合作时，研究了其中的个人激励措施。你有喜欢的故事吗？
Well, I actually work with a lot of the clients of my own clients. So I work with a lot of professional service firms and in doing that work with them, I go out and talk to their clients. The worst stories often arise around January when firms are changing their comp system.
嗯，实际上我与我自己客户的很多客户一起工作。所以我与许多专业服务公司合作，在与他们合作的过程中，我会与他们的客户进行交流。最糟糕的故事通常发生在一月份，当公司正在改变他们的报酬体系时。
The clients say, I can tell that firm X has just implemented a referral bonus because the customer service reps, the salespeople, the partners whoever is serving them come in and try to do this cross sell. Hey, can you have lunch with my partner who's an expert in tax? Hey, do you want to try out this new kind of software we've got? When the customers feel like they're being sold at or cross sold to or upsold, it cheapens the relationship a lot. It makes them feel like whoever is serving them is treating them just as a source of revenue and not as a real partner.
客户说，我能够看出X公司刚刚实行了推荐奖金制度，因为客服代表、销售人员、合作者或者任何为他们服务的人都会来进行交叉销售。嘿，你和我们的税收专家合伙人一起吃午餐怎么样？嘿，你想试试我们新的软件吗？当客户觉得自己被推销、跨销售或者上销售时，这会很贬低关系。他们会感觉到为他们服务的人只是将他们视为收入来源，而不是真正的合作伙伴。
I always say as soon as your client can figure out your compensation system based on the behavior of the individuals in there, you've probably got something wrong.
通常我会说，如果你的客户可以根据那里的个体行为来理解你的报酬制度，那么你可能做错了什么。
So much of this has to do with short-term values and long-term value, right? The tension between those two is this really a reflection of the fact that companies can't do a great job of rewarding employees on an annual performance basis for creating long-term value.
这很大程度上与短期价值和长期价值有关，对吧？这两者之间的紧张关系实际上反映了一个事实，即公司不能在年度业绩评估基础上很好地奖励员工创造长期价值。
Well, it's actually another one of the problems that we see in the typical performance management system is that the organization says that it values these long-term projects, getting to net zero carbon emissions, for example. Right. But that's a multi-year, multi-disciplinary, multi-function project.
嗯，实际上这是我们在典型的绩效管理系统中看到的问题之一，即组织表示它重视这些长期项目，例如实现净零碳排放。对的。但这是一个多年、多学科、多职能的项目。
Companies say that's where we want to head, but they co-mingle that kind of big aspirational goal with a bunch of short-term, much more easily quantified metrics. And guess which ones people focus on? Yeah. It's not surprising.
公司说这是我们想前进的方向，但他们将这种宏伟的目标与许多更易于量化的短期指标混淆在一起。你猜人们会关注哪些指标？对，不出所料。
The other thing to point out is that when you have shorter-term, easily quantified individual metrics, it's much easier to manage. It really just doesn't require a whole lot of leadership. If I can hold you to some very specific tasks that you can accomplish by yourself in the short-term, I don't really need to do very much to motivate you, or so it seems, because your incentives will guide your decision making, guide your allocation of resources, make you focus on whatever's right in front of you.
另外要指出的是，如果您有短期的、容易量化的个人绩效指标，管理起来就更容易。事实上，这并不需要太多领导力。如果我可以让您完成一些具体的任务，并且您可以在短期内单独完成它们，似乎我不需要做太多激励您的事情，因为您的奖励将引导您的决策，引导您的资源配置，并让您专注于眼前的任务。
Is it all based on poor incentive structures from organizations themselves, or the tools that they use to measure it also will problem?
这一切是基于组织本身的不良激励结构，还是它们用来衡量绩效的工具也存在问题？
When anyone sets up a performance management system, they have to have the right supports in place. And that involves some of the data that gets collected. People need to have real confidence that the data represents what leaders believe it represents.. And so having accurate data that's timely and trustworthy is truly essential. But I don't think it's the only thing.
当有人设置绩效管理系统时，他们需要有正确的支持措施。这涉及到一些收集的数据。人们需要真正有信心，相信数据代表了领导所相信的东西。 因此，准确、及时且可信赖的数据确实是必不可少的。但我不认为这是唯一的重点。
We're not measuring productivity of robots here. We're also measuring people. And part of what is hard to measure in the performance management system is people's behaviors. And so we for sure want to talk about collaboration as a means to an end. And wherever possible, we'll measure those ends. Customer satisfaction is a great example, right? Getting people to work together across sales and installation and follow-on customer service in an integrated way to improve the whole process is something that we can measure.
在这里，我们不仅要衡量机器人的生产力，还要衡量人的生产力。管理绩效系统中很难衡量的部分是人的行为。因此，我们肯定要谈论协作作为一个手段。在可能的地方，我们将衡量这些结果。客户满意度就是一个很好的例子，对吧？让销售、安装和后续客户服务之间的人能够整合地共同努力，以改善整个过程，这是可以衡量的。
We measure those customer satisfaction outcomes. But we also need to measure more of the behavioral inputs. And this is where it gets really tricky. People will generate interim results. For example, thought leadership. They might invest a huge amount in developing expertise in an area and writing that up in a way that generates a stronger reputation for the company and for themselves in for the products.
我们衡量客户对我们的满意度结果。但我们还需要衡量更多行为方面的输入。这就是事情变得非常棘手的地方。人们将会产生中期结果。例如，思想领导力。他们可能会投入大量精力在某个领域发展专业知识，并以一种能够增强公司和产品声誉的方式加以撰写。
How do you measure exactly the value of that? I mean, you could try to track how many customer inquiries came on the back of it. You could try to track the close rate in what that was worth. But sometimes those efforts have very diffuse outcomes that are incredibly valuable. And so what you actually want to track is who's putting in the effort and generating high quality thought leadership papers and reward them for that, even if you can't draw a direct line to some measurable outcomes.
你如何准确衡量这件事的价值呢？我的意思是，你可以尝试追踪有多少客户的询问是基于这件事产生的。你可以试图追踪这个价值的关闭率。但有时这些努力会产生非常有价值的模糊结果。所以，你实际上想要追踪的是谁在付出努力并产生高质量的思想领导论文，并为此奖励他们，即使你无法直接将之与可衡量的结果联系起来。
As far as talking about solutions, like what's your biggest recommendation for changing performance management systems so that they reward the right things? We need a multi-faceted, a multi-part scorecard. We need some of those objectives focused at the biggest broadest overarching goals. So for example, customer satisfaction could be one of those.
谈到解决方案，比如你最大的建议是如何改变绩效管理体系，以便奖励正确的事情？我们需要一个多方面、多部分的绩效评估系统。我们需要一些目标集中于最广泛、最普遍的总体目标。比如，客户满意度可能是其中之一。
At the next layer down, something focused more proximal, something closer to the environment people are working in, say a department or a team goal. That's important because you want people, and as much as you want people focusing on those broad objectives, how do you get sales and operations and customer service working together? You also want people within sales to be figuring out how do we have a better campaign? How do we sell this product better? How do we speak to customers in a way that really resonates with them? And you want those sales people sharing ideas with one another. Likewise, in every other department you've got going on.
在更底层的层面上，有些东西更加聚焦在更接近人们所处工作环境的东西，比如部门或团队的目标。这很重要，因为你希望人们不仅关注于那些宏大的目标，也希望销售、运营和客户服务能够协同工作。你还希望销售团队内部明确如何开展更好的营销活动，如何更好地销售产品，如何以对客户产生共鸣的方式与客户交流。你希望这些销售人员相互分享想法，其他部门也是如此。
And so it's really important to have people focusing on the local team people in the similar function that they're in and how do they make their jobs better or easier or more profitable, whatever their goals are for that department. And then you come to the individual goals. And that's the classic ones. How much does an individual salesperson produce in a certain way? Or does somebody meet their on-time delivery in an operation sense? Or you know, a whole variety of metrics that I think a lot of people are familiar with.
所以，非常重要的是让人们专注于本地团队中类似职能的人员，了解他们如何让工作更好、更容易或更有利可图，无论该部门的目标是什么。然后您可以关注个人目标，这是经典的目标。个人销售人员以某种方式产生的销售额有多少？或者在操作方面，某人是否按时交货？或者您知道的，许多人都熟悉的各种度量标准。
Having those three levels of metrics, and an increasingly broad level is something that I think is absolutely foundational to getting people to work together to achieve something that is ultimately strategically important for the company. But otherwise, we'll get lost in the shuffle of mere individual metrics. When you're talking about levels, you're not talking about you need to do this first and then something that is a second or third level. Those are not priorities.
我认为，拥有这三个层次的指标，以及越来越广泛的层次，是实现公司最终战略目标需要让人们共同努力的基础。否则，我们只会在单个指标中迷失方向。当谈到层次时，并不意味着你需要先做这个，然后才能做第二或第三个层次的事情。这些不是优先事项。
These are all sort of common priorities that may be weighted differently in your bonus or incentive structure. Or it could be different actions that somebody could take. So in the instance of a salesperson, they might have a quota that they need to hit. And this would be like the old model. This is the old model. This is the one thing you're measured on. The one thing you're measured on is, you know, do you hit your quota or not?
这些都是可能在你的奖金或激励机制中给予不同权重的常见优先事项。或者可能是某人可以采取的不同行动。比如销售人员可能有一个销售指标需要达成，这就像老旧的模式。这是老旧的模式：你的衡量标准只有一个，就是你能否达到销售指标。
And again, it's important so that everyone knows that everyone else is pulling their weight. The next level up is imagining that salesperson is part of a key account team. So they're responsible for hitting their quota of selling product X. But there's a stronger weighting for them that the client that they're serving is profitable and growing. And that will incentivize the salesperson when they're in their selling product X to keep their ears to the ground about other opportunities and make sure they're passing those other opportunities on to other members of that key account team.
再次强调，让大家知道每个人都在做出贡献是很重要的。接下来更高一级的要求是，想象销售人员是关键客户团队的一部分。因此，他们负责达成销售产品X的销售目标。但对他们来说更重要的是，他们的客户有盈利和增长的潜力。这将激励销售人员在促销产品X时保持警惕，关注其他机会，并确保将这些机会传递给关键客户团队的其他成员。
And it will incentivize them to do more than just that cross selling. Hey, I've got product X and she's got product Y. So let me pass the lead on and kind of throw it over the wall.. But in a much more strategic way of engaging with the client, let me understand what their needs are. Let me understand the personal priorities for the individual that I'm serving. How do we help them get ahead in their career? How do I learn more about this industry so that I can give more tailored advice to this client?
它会激励他们不仅仅做跨销售。嘿，我有产品X，她有产品Y，所以让我传递这个线索，从更战略的客户互动方式去了解他们的需求。让我了解我服务的个人的个人优先事项。我们如何帮助他们在职业生涯中取得成功？我该如何学习这个行业，以便我可以为这个客户提供更加有针对性的建议？
The lots of things that I could do as a salesperson that are well above and beyond just selling product X. And if I have a team goal where I'm helping everyone grow our business at that account, it motivates me to take a different set of actions. So that's kind of level two is the team goal.
作为销售人员，我可以做很多超出销售产品X的事情。如果我有一个团队目标，帮助大家在这个客户处推动业务增长，这会激励我采取不同的行动。所以第二个层次是团队目标。
Beyond that, I might need sales to be working with operations who's going to develop the product and customize it for that customer. And I might need to work with the install team to make sure they have all the information about what that customer really wants. I might need to work with the training function because they're going to help the customer really know how to use that product and ultimately with the customer service team who's going to be responsible for the long-term care and feeding of that client.
除此之外，我可能需要销售工作与开发和定制该产品给顾客的运营团队合作。我还可能需要与安装团队合作，确保他们拥有关于顾客真正想要的所有信息。我可能需要与培训功能合作，因为他们将帮助顾客真正了解如何使用该产品，最终要与负责客户长期关怀和维护的客户服务团队合作。
And so I should have some goals as a salesperson for how satisfied that customer is in the long run because what I sell to them right at the get-go will influence how happy they are with our whole company down the road. And I should have some skin in the game in making that customer satisfied based on the decisions that we make right in the very beginning.
那么，作为销售人员，我应该有一些目标，以确保客户长期满意，因为我在一开始卖给他们的东西将影响他们对我们公司整体的满意度。我也应该根据我们在最初所做的决定，对使客户满意投入一些努力。
And so that overarching goal of customer satisfaction in the long run isn't something that I directly influence day in day out, but I play enough of a role in enabling other people to do their job better that I should be incentivized in helping that to happen.
因此，长期来看，客户满意度这个总体目标并不是我日复一日地直接影响的，但我在帮助其他人更好地完成他们的工作方面发挥了足够的作用，因此我应该得到激励，帮助实现这一目标。
Yeah, how do you wait those? How do you know how to wait those? We recommend that the most heavily weighted goal is that biggest goal because that's the most strategically important one for the company. You're talking customer satisfaction for example right if you don't have satisfied loyal customers you really don't have a business in the long run. And what you want is for people across the organization to wake up every day and say how is it that we could improve customer satisfaction.
嘿，你如何等待它们呢？你是怎么知道怎样等待它们的呢？我们建议最为重要的目标是最大的目标，因为这对公司来说是最具战略意义的。例如，你说的是客户满意度，如果你没有满意忠诚的客户，从长远来看你实际上就没有生意可做。而你想要的是让整个组织的人每天醒来时都想着如何提高客户满意度。
You know ideally they're reading the newspaper and they're spotting some trend and they're saying wow this would really affect our customers down the road what are we going to do about that? And they come into the office or virtual room whatever they're in and say hey have we thought about this I know it has nothing to do with sales right now but it could affect sales in three years who's thinking about that. I mean is there anything in today's incentive system that would make somebody want to have that conversation a lot of places the answer is no.
你知道，理想的情况是他们在读报纸，发现了一些趋势，然后会说：哇，这会对我们的客户产生很大的影响，我们该怎么办呢？然后他们来到办公室或虚拟房间，无论他们身在何处，都会说：嘿，我们考虑过这个问题吗？我知道现在跟销售没有直接关系，但是在三年后可能会影响销售，有谁关心这个问题吗？我的意思是，今天的激励体系里有什么能够鼓励人们进行这种对话吗？在很多地方，答案是否定的。
And one of the interesting things that you suggest is separating the conversation that you have about the compensation that comes as a bonus or award for your performance and separating that from a conversation about personal development. Why is that something you're recommending?
你所建议的一件有趣的事情是将你关于获得奖励或绩效补偿的谈话与关于个人发展的谈话分开。为什么你推荐这样做呢？
Well I suppose everyone can recall a conversation that they had with a manager who spent 20 minutes talking about development opportunities and career advancement and and and and and in the 21st minute said and oh by the way your bonus this year is X. It's what you're going to go home and talk to a spouser partner about it. The only thing you remember is X. Yeah.
我想每个人都能回忆起和经理谈话的时刻，他花了20分钟谈论发展机会和事业晋升等等等等，直到第21分钟才说道：哦，顺便说一句，你今年的奖金是X。那是你回家和配偶/伴侣谈论的内容。你唯一记得的是X。是啊。
And you probably in anticipation of trying to understand what X was going to be heard almost nothing of those first 20 minutes. Maybe you heard it but didn't process it because you had high anxiety and really you were focused on X. How much of money am I going to make this year?
你可能由于期待着理解X会说些什么，几乎听不到那前20分钟的内容。也许你听到了，但是因为你很紧张，真的很专注于X，所以没有进行处理。我今年能赚多少钱呢？
Our recommendation for that reason and some others is to separate those conversations. Have the discussion about compensation. Here's how much your salary is going to change or not. Here's whether you earned a bonus or not and here's how much it is and you can link that to somebody's performance and recap. I hope what has been a series of conversations throughout the year on how somebody has been performing. So it's a recap conversation. Here's how well you did against this basket of metrics and therefore here's how much you're going to get paid and frankly that shouldn't be a surprise.
我们的建议是将这些讨论分开。先讨论关于薪酬的问题，告诉你的薪资是否会有变化，是否会有奖金以及奖金的具体数目，同时将之与员工表现相结合。这也是一次回顾性的会议，回顾一年来员工的表现。我们会根据一些指标来评估你的表现，基于此我们会给你相应的薪酬，这不应该让你感到惊讶。
The other thing to think about then is so what do you do in that second conversation? If you have one conversation about compensation then in the second conversation you can genuinely focus on what are the person's aspirations? What kind of career moves are they hoping to make? Do they really want to advance further in the track that they're on or are they looking for something different? What will it take in order for them to reach those aspirations? Do they need to develop different kinds of skills? Do they need exposure to different kinds of projects or different kinds of leaders?
那么，你在第二次谈话中该做什么呢？如果你已经和对方谈过薪酬，那么在第二次谈话中，你可以真正关注他们的愿望是什么？他们希望做哪些职业转变？他们真的想在当前的职业轨道上继续晋升还是在寻找不同的东西？为了实现这些愿望，他们需要做什么？他们需要发展不同的技能吗？他们需要接触不同类型的项目或不同类型的领导者吗？
By having that conversation separately it allows everyone to genuinely prepare for it in and of itself and to have an honest conversation about what somebody is looking for.
通过单独进行这种交谈，可以让每个人都真正为之准备，并就某人所追求的事情进行诚实的交谈。
Sometimes we know that it's realistic to have two different people conduct those conversations. In many organizations, somebody just has a primary supervisor and even in those cases, we're still recommending that you set different times, maybe even different parts of the year when you have those two different conversations to really let people know that we are interested in the second conversation on their development.
有时候，我们知道让两个不同的人进行这些谈话是很现实的。在许多组织中，有些人只有一个主管，即使在这种情况下，我们仍然建议您在不同的时间，甚至不同的时间段内进行这两种不同的谈话，以真正让人们知道我们对他们的发展有兴趣。
Where are they trying to go? You can offer advice on where you think their strengths are going to best play out but keep it separate from the money.
他们想要去哪儿？你可以为他们提供建议，告诉他们你认为他们的优势在哪里最能发挥，但要把钱的问题与此分开。
One other nugget here you recommend that people take away numerical ratings and use qualitative ones. Can you explain that? Nobody wants to be reduced to a number.
还有一个要点是你建议人们放弃数字评分，转而使用定性评分。您能解释一下吗？没有人希望被简单地归为一个数字。
When we've done research with different organizations that have moved away from numeric ratings, it was surprising to us and leaders in those organizations how much more motivated people were to understand where they stand relative to their own performance rather than being racked and stacked and numbered based on some competitive system.
当我们与那些已经放弃数值评分的不同组织进行研究时，令我们和这些组织的领导感到惊讶的是，人们更愿意了解自己的表现水平与自身而非基于竞争性系统进行排名和编号。因此，他们更加积极投入。
Which you don't have oversight into anyway, right so it's hard to really. It's hard for people to know what it means to be a three out of five or out of anything right and the kind of forced rank systems are absolutely killers not only of collaboration but of morale and if we rack and stack people and get them to compete with one another for their place in the hierarchy and therefore all of the follow on effects you know how much they're going to get paid or whether they get a raise etc.
你无论如何都没有监督权，所以真的很难理解。对人们来说，要知道自己是否三分之五或其他什么都很难，强制性的排名系统不仅会破坏合作，还会伤害士气。如果我们对人们进行排名并让他们相互竞争以获得在等级制度中的位置，所导致的所有后续影响都知道，例如他们能得到多少薪资或是否会得到加薪等。
We shouldn't be surprised then when there's some pretty bad behaviors going on induced by that competition and so even if you don't have a forced curve the numeric rating system can be pretty demoralizing for people. Instead rate people on whether they're improving on key areas that really matter.
如果通过竞争导致一些非常糟糕的行为，那我们就不应该感到惊讶。因此，即使没有强制曲线，数字评分系统对于人们来说可能仍然很令人沮丧。相反，我们应该根据人们在真正重要的关键领域上的改进来评价他们。
Again it's more complicated because you have to have the kind of capability matrix that shows people what does it look like if you're improving in your job what does it look like for you to have deeper problem-solving skills what does it look like what are you demonstrating when you have better communication skills but if you've laid that out in a competency grid it should be relatively straightforward for people to see whether they're making progress or not and ultimately that's what we want to reward people for.
再说一遍，这更加复杂，因为你必须拥有一种能力矩阵，向人们展示你的工作如何改善，你需要具备更深层次的解决问题的技能，你展示了更好的沟通技巧时，你在展示什么，但是如果你在能力网格中清晰地定义了这些，那么人们应该就能很容易地看到他们是否正在进步，这最终也是我们希望奖励人们的东西。
Can you tell me a success story of an organization that implemented this? I'm thinking of a consulting firm that we've worked with that moved from very siloed metrics for example they had a number of specialist consulting areas and they had a leader for each of those areas and everyone in those they called them practice groups everyone in each of those practice groups knew that their bonus depended on the success of their particular practice group and yet the organization espoused a value of collaboration and full service to their clients.
你能给我讲一个实施这个措施获得成功的机构的故事吗？我想到过我们合作过的一家咨询公司。他们最初有许多专业咨询领域，每个领域都有一位领导者，他们的度量指标非常分散。在这些被称作 "实践小组 " 的领域中，每个人都知道他们的奖金取决于他们特定实践小组的成功。但是，这个机构提倡合作和服务客户的价值观。
What happened in that old system was that everyone basically filled their bucket up first and come October, November when it was pretty clear they were going to hit their metrics for themselves and for their practice group then they'd start to think bigger picture like okay so how do we engage more of our services for the clients that I'm serving right now but it was pretty much an afterthought.
在那个旧系统中发生的是，每个人基本上都先填满自己的桶，到了十月、十一月时，当他们很清楚自己和他们所在的实践团队都将达到他们的度量标准时，他们就会开始考虑更大的问题，比如，如何为我正在服务的客户提供更多的服务，但这几乎是一个事后的想法。
They moved to a performance management system that was much more focused on outcomes for particular clients so they organized into key client teams they set metrics for not only the key client leader but for everyone who served that client and these were metrics that were revenue-based in some ways how much are we growing the client but it was the quality of the revenue and not just the amount so they wanted to make sure that they were generating revenue from a variety of different sources that the client was actually satisfied and they took a lot of time to understand client satisfaction based on qualitative and quantitative metrics there as well and they also included other kinds of KPIs like the diversity of the teams serving the client because they were really looking at developing sustainable loyal client relationships that would last for years regardless of whether they had some churn in the organization so they focused on institutionalizing those client relationships and they motivated people to really keep the clients best interest in mind and it changed the organization dramatically.
他们采用了一种更注重特定客户结果的绩效管理系统，因此将自己组织成关键客户团队。他们不仅为关键客户领导者设置了指标，而且为每个为该客户服务的人设置了指标。这些指标在某些方面基于收入，即我们在增加客户的数量，但是却是基于收入的质量而不仅仅是收入量。因此，他们希望确保他们通过多种不同的渠道产生收入，客户实际上感到满意，并花费大量时间了解客户对质量和数量等定性和定量指标的满意程度。此外，他们还包括其他类型的KPI，如为客户服务的团队的多样性，因为他们真正关注开发持续的忠实客户关系，这些关系将持续数年，无论组织是否存在一些流失。因此，他们专注于制度化这些客户关系，并激励员工始终考虑客户的最佳利益，这极大地改变了组织。
We saw customer satisfaction scores going up very significantly they increased revenue and profitability of clients and they were able to create reference cases so they started doing really interesting sophisticated future-focused work for these clients and then they could take it out to the market and say hey we're serving this client on these very sophisticated issues and don't you want to learn more about that it changed the organization in all the ways I just talked about strategic and financial but on the talent side, it made a huge difference as well people were much more engaged.
我们看到客户满意度得分显着提高，这提高了客户的收入和盈利能力，他们能够创建参考案例，因此开始为这些客户做真正有趣且专业的未来规划工作，然后他们可以将其推向市场并说：“嘿，我们正在为这些非常复杂的问题服务于客户，您想更多地了解吗？”这改变了组织的战略和财务状况，但在人才方面也产生了巨大的影响，人们更加投入和积极了。
I mean you can measure engagement scores but you could sort of feel it in the air too people were excited about what they were doing they were proud to work there in ways that had been waning for quite some time.
我是说，你可以测量参与度分数，但你也可以从空气中感受到人们对他们所做的事情感到兴奋，以一种在很长一段时间内一直在消退的方式，他们为在那里工作而感到自豪。
Heidi thanks so much for coming on the show to talk about your research and your work.
Heidi，非常感谢你来节目上谈论你的研究和工作。
Well, thank you so much for having me, appreciate it.
非常感谢你邀请我，非常感激。
That's Heidi Gardner. She's a distinguished fellow at Harvard Law School and a co-author of the HBR article "Performance Management Shouldn't Kill Collaboration."
她叫海蒂·加德纳。她是哈佛法学院的杰出研究员，也是HBR文章“绩效管理不应该破坏合作”的合著者。
If you got something from today's episode, we have more podcasts to help you manage your team, manage organizations, and manage your career. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search "hbr" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
如果你从今天的节目中获得了一些启迪，那么我们还有更多的播客可以帮助你管理团队、组织和职业。在hbr.org/podcasts上找到它们，或者在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或任何你听节目的地方搜索“hbr”。
This episode was produced by Mary Dew. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart. Our audio product manager is Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates is our audio production assistant.
这一集的制作由Mary Dew负责。我们得到了Rob Eckhart的技术协助，我们的音频产品经理是Ian Fox，Hannah Bates是我们的音频制作助理。
Thanks for listening to the HBR a dcast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Kurt Nickish.
谢谢您收听HBR播客，我们将于周二回来带来新的一集。我是库特·尼基什。
Hi, it's Ellison before you go, I have a question. What do you love about HBR? I worked at newspapers before I came to HBR, and the thing that impressed me most is the amount of attention and care that goes into each and every article. You know we have multiple editors working on each piece, they put their all into translating these ideas typically from academia or from companies in practice into advice that will really change people's lives in the workplace.
嗨，你走之前，我有一个问题。你最喜欢HBR的什么？我来HBR之前在报纸上工作过，最让我印象深刻的是每篇文章都付出了大量的关注和关爱。你知道，我们有多个编辑为每篇文章工作，他们全力以赴地将这些通常来自学术界或实践公司的思想转化为真正能改变人们职场生活的建议。
If you love HBR's work, the best thing you can do to support us is to become a subscriber. You can do that at hbr.org/subscribeideacast all one word no spaces. That's hbr.org/subscribeideacast. Thanks.
如果你喜欢HBR的工作，支持我们最好的方式是成为我们的订阅者。你可以在hbr.org/subscribeideacast这个网站上进行订阅（注意没有空格）。非常感谢。