Besieged Sudan city residents face starvation, UN warns
发布时间 2025-08-05 21:14:00 来源
Hello and welcome to NewsHour. It's coming to you live from the BBC World Service Studios in Central London. I'm Tim Franks. We're going to take you in the course of the programme to a groundbreaking project with children in Ukraine and inside one of the major people smuggling rings in France that year-long investigation will bring you in 30 minutes. But we're going to begin in one of, if not the most, dangerously inaccessible places in the world. It's the besiege city of Elfasha in western Darfur in Sudan. It's the last holdout in the region for government security forces. It's surrounded by their foes in the more than two-year-long civil war, the paramilitary rapid support forces.
你好，欢迎收听《新闻时刻》。本节目由BBC世界服务中心位于伦敦市中心的演播室现场直播。我是蒂姆·弗兰克斯。在节目中，我们将带您了解乌克兰儿童的一个开创性项目，以及法国一起人口走私大案的幕后，该调查耗时一年，我们将在30分钟内为您呈现详细报道。 但节目一开始，我们将前往世界上最危险且难以到达的地区之一，那就是位于苏丹西部达尔富尔的被围困城市埃尔法沙。这里是政府安全部队在该地区的最后一个据点，目前正被在持续两年多的内战中，敌对的快速支援部队围困。
And for the estimated 300,000 people there, it's, well, let's hear this assessment from the UN's World Food Program. Lenny Kinzli is the WFP spokesperson in Sudan. She spoke to us from Port Sudan. So the situation is absolutely catastrophic. One year since famine was first confirmed in Zamzam camp, which is just outside of Elfasha, we're seeing that the situation is getting worse by the day. While Elfasha is besieged and has been besieged for over a year, we haven't been able to get food supplies in. In the meantime, we're providing digital cash assistance, but prices are skyrocketing and that's just not enough. People are really on the brink of starvation and resorting to extreme measures to survive, eating animal feed, eating food waste.
在那里的大约30万人中，情况可以说是相当糟糕。让我们听取来自联合国世界粮食计划署的评估。Lenny Kinzli是驻苏丹的世界粮食计划署发言人。她从苏丹港向我们介绍了情况。目前的状况绝对是灾难性的。自从一年前在Elfasha附近的Zamzam营地首次确认发生饥荒以来，情况每天都在恶化。Elfasha一直被围困超过一年，我们无法将食物供应运进去。在此期间，我们提供数字现金援助，但物价飞涨，这远远不够。人们实际上已到了极度饥饿的边缘，被迫采取极端措施生存，甚至食用动物饲料和食品垃圾。
It's extremely tragic, but as WFP, we have the food, we have the trucks. We just need to be able to get in there and for that we really need unfettered access. Mohammed is an aid worker currently in Elfasha for his safety we aren't using his full name. He shared this voice note from the besiege city yesterday, which we've voiced because of the poor quality of the audio. In Elfasha, it's an extremely dangerous situation. There is a severe famine imposed on the civilians within the city due to an unjust siege led by the rapid support forces for over one year and nine months. Civilians here are forced to eat ambas, the animal feed.
这是非常悲惨的，但作为世界粮食计划署，我们拥有粮食和卡车。我们只需要能够进入那里，为此我们确实需要不受限制的通道。穆罕默德是一名在埃尔法沙的援助工作者，为了他的安全，我们没有使用他的全名。昨天他从被围困的城市发来了这段语音，由于音质较差，我们进行了配音。在埃尔法沙，情况极其危险。由于快速支援部队长达一年零九个月的不公正围困，城市内的平民正遭受严重的饥荒。这里的平民被迫以动物饲料为食。
There is a complete lack of medicines and commercial goods in addition to intense artillery shellings and airborne attacks, targeting civilian neighbours and centres for internally safe food. And centres for internally displaced people and safe shelters which are made by governors to protect the internally displaced people. And civilians in public locations and in hospitals and in markets. That was the aid worker Mohammed speaking to us from Elfasha. That city in the whole of western Darfur may have plummed almost to unimaginable deaths, but the disaster extends across so much of Sudan.
药品和商业商品完全匮乏，加上猛烈的炮击和空袭，目标是平民居住区和内部安全食品中心，以及为了保护国内流离失所者而设立的安全庇护所。平民在公共场所、医院和市场也遭受攻击。援助工作人员穆罕默德在埃尔法沙向我们谈到这一情况。这个位于达尔富尔西部的城市可能已陷入难以想象的死亡境地，但灾难遍及整个苏丹。
The UN's children's agency UNICEF issued its own alarm call today saying that the manutrition was now rife throughout the country with many children reduced in its words to skin and bones. Alex Deval is executive director of the World Peace Foundation at Tufts University in the US and especially on Sudan. He's also written a book about famine and the use of forced starvation as an instrument of genocide and war. First, what's he been able to gather about? What's going on in Elfasha? It is very hard to describe and to imagine the first reliable reports of famine are 18 months ago. It was 13 months ago that the UN's integrated food security phase classification system confirmed that there were famine conditions in Elfasha and Zamzam.
联合国儿童基金会（UNICEF）今天发出警告，称营养不良现象已经在全国范围内普遍存在，许多儿童瘦骨嶙峋。亚历克斯·德瓦尔是美国塔夫茨大学世界和平基金会的执行主任，专注于苏丹事务。他还写过一本关于饥荒的书，探讨了将强制性饥饿作为种族灭绝和战争工具的使用。首先，他了解到埃尔法沙目前的情况如何？很难用语言描述或想象，大约18个月前有了关于饥荒的首个可靠报告，13个月前，联合国的综合粮食安全阶段分类系统确认埃尔法沙和赞赞的饥荒状况。
People have been living or rather dying under these conditions for more than a year and not just like a food complete breakdown in all essential services and ongoing fighting. We have come to see pictures of what famine is like from Gaza. So just imagine those pictures many times over a period of more than 12 months and you're beginning to get an idea of what the people of Elfasha are suffering. I think I was reading that about 300,000 people are left inside Elfasha in this besiege city. Have you got any sense of just how they do survive? Some food is smuggled in. What I hear is that people are literally eating charcoal, they're eating animal food, they are eating scraps that they can find.
人们在这种条件下生活，或更确切地说，是在这种条件下死亡，已经超过一年了，不仅仅是像食物这样的基本服务完全崩溃，还有持续的战斗。我们已经从加沙看到饥荒是什么样子的图片。所以，想象一下这些图景延续了超过12个月，你就可以开始理解Elfasha的人们正在承受的痛苦。我读到过这座被围困城市里大约有30万人。你能想象他们是怎么活下来的吗？有些食物是偷偷运进去的。我听说人们真的是在吃木炭，吃动物的饲料，吃能找到的残羹剩饭。
And because there are no journalists there because there is not any humanitarian presence that can actually really document what is going on. We fear that many, many people are dying from hunger on a daily basis. Given how long this has been going on and given that this city is the target of this paramilitary rapid support forces, have you any understanding of how the government security forces are holding out? Well they have been able to get the occasional resupply. And then the siege of course is always the men with guns who starve last. You have to starve the entire civilian population before they go hungry.
由于那里没有记者，也没有任何人道主义组织真正记录发生的情况，我们担心每天都有很多人因饥饿而死。考虑到这种情况已经持续了很长时间，并且这座城市是快速支援部队等准军事组织的目标，你是否了解政府安全部队是如何坚持下来的？他们偶尔能够得到补给。当然，在围困中，总是持枪者最后挨饿。在持枪者挨饿之前，必须先让整个平民人口挨饿。
And the great fear of the people in Elfasha is that if the city falls, they will be massacred. RSF committed genocidal massacres in the city of El Junaena and West Darfur in the early days of the war and they fear that they will be the next one. So they are literally fighting for their lives. We're talking about one part of this vast country but from Unicef today a warning that the manutrition rates among children are soaring. Do you have a sense of how bad the situation is across the country? The numbers are really shattering. I mean of the 45 million people in Sudan more than half are displaced. More than 8 million are in what the UN considers emergency conditions are further, 1 million also in famine conditions. So all these people are suffering desperate hunger.
在埃尔法沙，人们最大的恐惧是如果城市沦陷，他们将遭到屠杀。在战争初期，RSF在埃尔朱奈纳和西达尔富尔犯下了种族灭绝般的屠杀行为，那里的人们担心自己会成为下一个受害者。因此，他们是真正在为自己的生命而战。我们讨论的是这个辽阔国家的一部分，而来自联合国儿童基金会的警告显示，儿童营养不良的比例正在飙升。你能了解到全国情况有多糟吗？数据令人震惊。苏丹有4500万人口，其中超过一半流离失所。超过800万人处于联合国认定的紧急状态，另外有100万人处于饥荒状态。因此，所有这些人都在经受极度的饥饿之苦。
And one of the most terrible tragedies here is that this is completely out of the news and it has been grievously affected by the cuts in USRID so that the appeal that the UN launched, which is already a bare-bone scale back appeal, is only between 15 and 22% funded for this year. Even the minimum aid that the UN wanted to bring in, they are really scraping the barrel. I saw in a piece that you wrote a couple of months ago, Alex, that you said that Sudan is an African problem that needs an Arab solution. Can you explain to me what you meant by that? Yes, Sudan is Chilean and African country. But the key external forces that are backing the warring parties are in the Arab world.
这里有一个非常严重的悲剧，那就是这个问题完全没有出现在新闻中，而且还因为USRID的削减而遭受严重影响。联合国发起的呼吁，本来就已经是削减到最基本的程度，今年仅筹集到15%到22%的资金。即使是联合国想要提供的最低限度的援助，如今也是捉襟见肘。我看到你几个月前写的一篇文章中提到，苏丹是一个非洲问题，需要阿拉伯世界的解决方案。能解释一下你这么说的原因吗？是的，苏丹是一个非洲国家。但支持交战各方的主要外部力量来自阿拉伯世界。
Egypt, especially in Saudi Arabia, are backing the government of Sudan and the United Arab Emirates, though it denies it as clear evidence that it is backing the RSF. And the first step towards a peace deal is getting those three Arab countries to agree to some sort of settlement, either to push forward a peace process or to back off from arming the two sides. There was an attempt by the US government, by Secretary of State Marco Rubio, to bring them together in Washington last week, that failed. And sadly, the fallout from that failure is that the patrons on either side are redoubling their efforts and the war is escalating. So the immediate prospects are very dire indeed.
埃及，特别是在沙特阿拉伯，正在支持苏丹政府，同时阿联酋虽然否认，但有明确证据表明它在支持快速支援部队（RSF）。要达成和平协议的第一步，是让这三个阿拉伯国家同意某种解决方案，无论是推动和平进程，还是停止向双方提供武器。上周，美国政府和国务卿马可·鲁比奥曾试图在华盛顿将他们聚到一起，但未能成功。不幸的是，这次失败的后果是双方的支持者加倍努力，导致战争升级。因此，短期内的前景确实非常严峻。
And that was the executive director of the world, peace foundation at Tufts University in Sudan expert, Alex Taval. According to official figures out of Ukraine, more than 70,000 people are missing from the war with Russia. That's left thousands of children desperately waiting for news of their mother or father and unable to move on. Psychologists say these children are some of the most traumatized they've ever worked with. Now for the first time, a leading Ukrainian charity is put on a special summer camp for some of these kids, offering them therapy, fun activities and a safe space. The BBC's Will Vernon was given exclusive access to this pioneering project.
这是来自塔夫茨大学世界和平基金会的执行主任、苏丹问题专家亚历克斯·塔瓦尔。根据乌克兰的官方数据，超过7万人在与俄罗斯的战争中失踪。这使得成千上万的儿童迫切等待父母的消息，而无法继续生活。心理学家表示，这些孩子是他们工作中遇到的受创最严重的群体之一。现在，一个领先的乌克兰慈善机构首次为其中一些孩子举办了一个特殊的夏令营，提供治疗、有趣的活动和一个安全的空间。BBC的威尔·弗农获得了该先锋项目的独家采访机会。
It's just after eight in the morning, and the kids at the camp are being woken up by Ukrainian pop songs and they're emerging from their rooms. Quite blurry eye, actually. This is the camp for the children of Ukraine's missing. 50 of them aged between 7 and 17 with one thing in common. They all have a parent missing in the war. They are leaving like in frozen state because they do not have this point of starting grieving. Vanwey Martyrusian is the chief psychologist of Gen Ukrainian, the charity running this two-week camp. They do not know how to move on. And that makes this type of drama maybe the most difficult to work with. Our mission is to make small steps in order for these children to have some childhood, even in wartime.
早上刚过八点，营地里的孩子们被乌克兰流行歌曲叫醒，正从房间里走出来，眼睛还昏昏沉沉的。这个营地是为乌克兰失踪者的孩子们设立的。有50个年龄在7到17岁之间的孩子，他们有一个共同点，那就是他们都有一个家长在战争中失踪了。他们就像处于冻结的状态，因为他们尚未开始哀悼的过程。Vanwey Martyrusian 是乌克兰 Gen 慈善机构的首席心理学家，该组织正在运营这个为期两周的营地。他们不知道如何前进，这使得这种心理创伤可能是最难处理的。我们的使命是在战争期间，帮助这些孩子哪怕迈出一小步，让他们能够有一些童年的感觉。
Dad was always very good to us. He had a sweet tooth like me and bought me sweets a lot. Nastya's dad disappeared around a year ago. He was serving in the Ukrainian army on the front line. As with all the children at the camp, we spoke to her with a psychologist present. Can you tell me when you last saw your dad? It was in the city of Paltava. We went there for two days because dad was training there. That was the last time I saw him. It was two weeks before he disappeared. I love him very much. And I know he loves me too. And he would do anything to make me happy. So I'm thankful for the good times that we experienced together. I'm glad of that more than I'm sad because I hope we can make new memories with him again.
爸爸一直对我们很好。他和我一样喜欢吃甜食，经常给我买糖果。纳斯佳的爸爸大约在一年前失踪了。他当时在前线的乌克兰军队服役。和营地里的所有孩子一样，我们在心理咨询师的陪同下与她交谈。你能告诉我你最后一次见到爸爸是什么时候吗？是在波尔塔瓦市。我们去那里待了两天，因为爸爸在那儿训练。那是我最后一次见到他。那是在他失踪的前两周。我非常爱他，我知道他也爱我。他会竭尽全力使我快乐。所以，我感谢我们一起度过的美好时光。我对这些回忆感到欣慰多于伤心，因为我希望将来还能和他一起创造新的回忆。
Has the camp made you feel better? Yes. I think I've started feeling better. I've been having fun with friends and I've been really enjoying it. Gen. Ukrainian has held a number of summer camps for other groups of children. But this is the first camp specifically for those who don't know what happened to their missing parent. Oksana Llebi-Divva is the founder of the charity. Basically we give them their childhood back. Every single day they are waiting for the message from the parents. They spend a lot of time in social media but special channels, Russian channels. One group therapy session is held with the children sitting around a bonfire. They each light a candle to represent their missing loved ones. In the background the gentle slopes of Ukraine's Carpathian mountains smothered in brilliant green forests of spruce and fur.
营地让你感觉好点了吗？是的，我觉得我开始好起来了。我一直和朋友们玩得很开心，非常享受这里的时光。总理。乌克兰曾为其他儿童群体举办过许多夏令营。但这还是第一个专为那些不知道失踪父母发生了什么事的孩子举办的营地。奥克萨娜·利比-迪瓦是这个慈善机构的创始人。基本上，我们是把他们的童年还给他们。每天他们都在等待来自父母的消息。他们花很多时间在社交媒体上，但只是在特定的频道里，都是俄罗斯的频道。一个团体治疗课程是在孩子们围坐在篝火旁进行的。他们每人点燃一根蜡烛，象征他们失踪的亲人。背景中是乌克兰喀尔巴阡山脉轻柔的山坡，上面覆盖着雪松和冷杉组成的翠绿森林。
The children are now sharing their memories of what the war started. It really is incredibly emotional. Kids talking about the first times they heard explosions and how their parents were panicking and they are having to pack up their things and leave. I really am a very powerful person to help these children. Dima is 15 and comes from the Harkiv region. When Russia launched its full scale invasion his dad signed up to fight. Dima last spoke to him in November 2023, the day before he disappeared. The last time he wrote to me was a message on WhatsApp. He sent me a video of the mall drinking tea in the forest and he said, we are having a tea break. Everything is fine. I will call you tomorrow.
孩子们现在正在分享他们对战争开始时的记忆。这真的是非常情感丰富的时刻。孩子们谈论着他们第一次听到爆炸声的经历，以及他们的父母如何惊慌失措，匆忙收拾行李离开的情景。我觉得自己能够帮助这些孩子，真的是很有力量的人。迪玛今年15岁，来自哈尔科夫地区。当俄罗斯发动全面入侵时，他的父亲报名参战。迪玛上一次和他通话是在2023年11月，也就是他失踪的前一天。那次他在WhatsApp上给我发了最后一条信息。他给我发了一段在森林里喝茶的视频，并且说：“我们正在休息喝茶，一切都很好。我明天打电话给你。”
That report from Wilvernan on some of the help that is being offered to some of the children suffering psychologically in Ukraine. This is New South. Coming up in the program as promised a BBC investigation has exposed the French and UK operations of a powerful and violent gang that is taking people or attempting to take people across the English Channel in small boats. The next step is for our undercover reporter to book a place by phone on a small boat.
以下是对Wilvernan报告的翻译，报告中提到了一些针对乌克兰患有心理问题的儿童提供的帮助。这是新南。接下来，正如承诺的节目内容，BBC的一项调查揭露了一个强大且暴力的团伙在法国和英国的活动，他们通过小船将人们带过或试图带过英吉利海峡。下一步是我们的卧底记者通过电话预定一艘小船上的位置。
Hello, I want to leave soon. Tomorrow is good. The price is 1,400 euros. I want to be in Britain. That report coming up in 15 minutes. Our main headline is we have been hearing this our two UN agencies have issued warnings about the hunger crisis in Sudan with the besiege city of Elfasha facing starvation and child malnutrition. Rife across the country. You with news are live from the BBC. I'm Tim Franks.
你好，我想尽快离开。明天就可以，价格是1,400欧元。我想去英国。大约15分钟后，会有一个报告。我们的主要头条是两个联合国机构已经对苏丹饥荒危机发出警告，遭围困的Elfasha城市面临饥饿和儿童营养不良。这种情况在全国都很严重。您正在收听的是来自BBC的新闻直播。我是蒂姆·弗兰克斯。
If you were listening yesterday, you might have heard our interview with the pediatrician and epidemiologist, Philip Landragon, with new research into the health effects of plastic production and pollution on the eve of an international gathering under the auspices of the UN to try to get the best of the world. The UN to try at the sixth time of asking to agree a global treaty on curbing or at least controlling our addiction to plastic. It would be the first such treaty and it could have enormous consequences for us all given how hugely dependent we are on what is for all its myriad downsides.
如果你昨天有在收听的话，你可能听到了我们对儿科医生和流行病学家菲利普·兰德拉刚的采访，他进行了关于塑料生产和污染对健康影响的新研究。这项研究是在联合国主导下的一次国际会议前夕进行的，会议的目的是为了尝试在第六次努力中达成一项全球性协定，以限制或至少控制我们对塑料的依赖。这将是首个此类协定，考虑到我们对塑料的巨大依赖性，它可能会对我们所有人产生巨大的影响，尽管塑料有着许多负面影响。
This extraordinarily useful pliable material and how production of it is forecast only to grow. Every seeing the effort to reach a consistent consensus between almost 200 countries is the United Nations Environment Program. Its director is Inga Anderson. She's been speaking to my new star colleague Sean Lay. Well, it's clear that there are a lot of areas where they are making progress and there are three areas where we still need to roll up our sleeves and get the negotiations clear.
这种极其有用且可塑性强的材料的产量预计将继续增长。联合国环境规划署正在协调近200个国家之间达成一致共识的努力。该组织的负责人是英加·安德森。她最近与我的新同事肖恩·莱进行了交流。显然，在许多方面他们都取得了进展，但仍有三个方面需要我们加倍努力，以明确谈判方向。
And two of the areas are we have to take a life cycle approach. We have to promote sustainable production and consumption. So the question is just like it was with Paris, how will we measure this? What does it look like? That is what is in the negotiations on the other issue, which deals with chemical additives. Will there be lists? Will they fold it into product design? Will they deal with hazardous chemicals specifically? And if we name a chemical that is in a plastic, how will we deal it with it if it is in other areas in the economy outside the scope of this treaty negotiation?
我们需要采用生命周期的方法，并促进可持续的生产和消费。这与巴黎协议相似，问题在于我们如何衡量这些目标？具体会是什么样子？这正是谈判中讨论的内容之一，涉及到化学添加剂的问题。会有清单吗？这些清单会融入产品设计中吗？他们会专门处理危险化学品吗？如果我们在塑料中指定了一种化学物质，而这种化学物质在这个条约谈判范围之外的经济领域中也存在，我们该如何处理呢？
The third area is finance. Right. You talk about the life cycle of plastics to have 60% of all the plastics that we use single use. I mean that isn't sustainable is it? Incredibly, only 9% is recycled, 17% incinerated, 46% ends up in landfills. A 712 billion dollar plastics industry today is set to at least double by 2050. I just wonder how you can de-incentivize that.
第三个领域是金融。对，您提到塑料的生命周期，其中60%的塑料是一次性使用的。这根本不可持续，不是吗？令人难以置信的是，只有9%被回收，17%被焚烧，46%进入垃圾填埋场。目前价值7120亿美元的塑料行业预计到2050年至少翻倍。我很好奇，您如何能够降低这种情况的动力。
That indeed and so and in fact our numbers say that it will triple by 2060. So the problem continues to grow on a business as usual scenario. Of course we need to step up our game on waste management, but also on where we use it and how. And that is why we need global rules. There will always be a tug of war between producer and consumer and purchaser and so on and so forth. That's part of what negotiations are.
我们的数据确实表明，到2060年，这一数字将增加到三倍。因此，在维持现状的情况下，这个问题将继续恶化。当然，我们需要在废物管理方面加大力度，同时还要改善使用方式和使用地点。这就是为什么我们需要全球规则的原因。生产者与消费者、买家之间始终会存在拉锯战，而这正是谈判的一部分。
In Grand Ascent Director of the UN Environment Programme, it's been to Sean Lay. Alongside Miss Anderson and Geneva as ever at these huge and highly charged negotiations are a great number of officials from governments, industry lobbyists, pressure groups and scientists. Among those scientists is a veteran of these talks, Bettany Karnie Almroot, professor of eco-toxicology at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. What's she hoping for at the end of this?
在《大幅攀升》中，联合国环境规划署主任是肖恩·雷。在这些庞大且充满争议的谈判中，像往常一样，还有安德森女士和日内瓦，以及大量来自各国政府的官员、行业游说者、压力团体和科学家。其中一位科学家是此次谈判的资深人士，瑞典哥德堡大学生态毒理学教授贝塔尼·卡妮·阿尔姆露特。她希望在最后能有什么成果呢？
So ideally we will have a treaty that is effective in achieving the goal that was set out in resolution 514 in 2022, which was to end plastic pollution. And we're understanding plastic pollution very broadly. The resolution itself calls for taking a full life cycle approach, which would, according to science, begin with extraction and production of the feedstock of the raw materials that are used to produce virgin plastics all the way through to use.
理想情况下，我们将达成一个有效的协议，以实现2022年通过的第514号决议中设定的目标，即消除塑料污染。我们对塑料污染的理解非常广泛。该决议本身要求采取全生命周期的方法，根据科学研究，这将从提取和生产用于制造原生塑料的原材料开始，一直到使用阶段。
And waste and then contamination of the global environment. What are the reasons, I mean you said that you want a robust treaty? Are there any reasons why you think people should be more hopeful this time round? To be effective, the treaty would have to take into consideration a lot of different aspects of plastics. And for a non-expert or a person who hasn't been following these negotiations, plastic seems like an easy thing.
全球环境的浪费和污染。原因是什么？我的意思是，你说你想要一个强有力的条约？有没有什么理由让你认为这次人们应该更加有希望？为了取得效果，条约需要考虑到塑料的许多不同方面。对于一个非专业人士或者没有关注这些谈判的人来说，塑料似乎是个简单的问题。
It's bottles, it's bags. But plastics are very complex, both as materials, but also within our societies and we do use them in literally every part of our lives. So this is not an easy problem to solve. As scientists, we're trying to identify all of these things, the drivers of pollution, the sources feed and effects of plastics and potential solutions and all of our work from within my coalition, but also the broader scientific community indicates that measures that are upstream that are early in the plastic life cycle are necessary and the most effective measures that can help us to achieve the goals of the treaty to end-class explosion.
塑料不仅仅是瓶子和袋子。塑料作为一种材料非常复杂，而且在我们的社会中也扮演着复杂的角色，我们几乎在生活的每个方面都在使用它们。因此，这不是一个容易解决的问题。作为科学家，我们努力识别污染的驱动因素、塑料的来源、影响以及潜在的解决方案。我的团队和更广泛的科学界的研究表明，在塑料生命周期早期采取措施是必要且最有效的，可以帮助我们实现终结塑料污染协议的目标。
And that would include such measures as addressing production and addressing chemicals and plastics. And these are also two of the most contentious issues in these negotiations. That sounds as if there is a sort of pretty profound philosophical rupture between people like you and those producers, those industry representatives and suppliers.
这将包括解决生产问题以及处理化学品和塑料的问题。而且，这也是谈判中两个最具争议的话题。这听起来似乎在像你这样的人与那些生产商、行业代表和供应商之间存在一种相当深刻的哲学分歧。
And the positives and states that are involved in petroleum extraction that make other raw materials for plastics who believe actually it's downstream rather than upstream. In other words, it's to do with better recycling of plastics. How are you going to bridge those two very different approaches? So, the first and second part of the question is, whether or not we can just improve waste management.
石油开采相关的积极因素和状态涉及生产其他塑料原料的过程，他们认为真正需要关注的是塑料的下游处理，而不是上游。换句话说，这与更好的塑料回收有关。你如何在这两种截然不同的方式之间搭建桥梁呢？所以，问题的一部分是，我们是否可以仅通过改进废物管理来实现？
So, there are lots and lots of lobbyists there, people with those vested interests you talked about. How much does that ultimately matter given that it will be an agreement that has to be hammered out between nation states? You know, these companies and organizations and industry groups, they don't have a vote in the room today. They don't have a vote in the room, but they are influential.
那么，那里有许多、许多的游说者，你刚才提到的那些有既得利益的人。考虑到最终需要在国家之间达成协议，这些游说者究竟有多大影响呢？你知道，这些公司、组织和行业团体今天在会场是没有投票权的。尽管他们没有投票权，但他们具有影响力。
And we know that these kinds of actors will apply a playbook that we sometimes refer to as the Beak Tobacco Playbook or the Big Oil Playbook, where they use tactics and measures to create doubt or to undermine science or the credibility of individual scientific studies or individual scientists, so that decision makers are not faced with clear, informative data or evidence to inform their decisions. But are rather faced with confusion and doubt.
我们知道，这类行为者会使用一种常被称为“大烟草剧本”或“大石油剧本”的策略。他们运用各种手段，制造疑虑或者削弱科学、个别科学研究或科学家的可信度，从而让决策者无法获得清晰且具有参考意义的数据或证据来做出决策，而是陷入困惑和怀疑之中。
Supervising this whole treaty negotiation process is the UN Environment Program, UNEP. We've just heard from the director. What sort of job do you think they are doing? I know that the United Nations Environment Program Director is very ambitious, and the resolution that was signed to begin with to negotiate this treaty was very ambitious.
负责监督整个条约谈判过程的是联合国环境规划署（UNEP）。我们刚刚听到该署署长发言。您认为他们的工作做得怎么样？我知道联合国环境规划署的署长充满雄心，而最初签署用来开启条约谈判的决议也非常有雄心。
There has been some critique against UNEP with regards to access that industry has been given to these processes. So tell me, are you talked about the sort of these, the presence of these groups? Tell me how you have, if at all, if you have felt this personally. I have, and we've known for decades that industry will use tactics to try to undermine the credibility of individual scientists or to harass and intimidate them, maybe into silence.
针对联合国环境规划署（UNEP）的批评中，有一部分是关于工业界在这些进程中获得的访问权限。那么，跟我谈谈这些群体的存在吧。请告诉我，如果有的话，你个人是否感受到了这些问题。我确实感受到了，而且我们几十年来一直知道，工业界会使用一些策略来试图削弱某些科学家的声誉，或者骚扰、恐吓他们，甚至让他们保持沉默。
And it's been shouting and yelling. I've been photographed. I've been recorded. I've been videotaped. They tried to look at my computer screen and my telephone screen to see who I'm talking to or chatting with or what I'm taking notes on. I've had letters written about me to editors. I've had news letters for business industry associations written about me and my work.
一直有人在大喊大叫。我被拍照、录音、录像。他们试图查看我的电脑屏幕和电话屏幕，想知道我在跟谁交流或聊些什么，或者我在记什么笔记。有人给编辑写信关于我，还有商业行业协会写的新闻简讯提到我和我的工作。
And I know that other scientists have experienced similar or even worse situations. People have been brought before courts because of their research. People have lost their jobs because of industry influence over their employers. I interpret their actions against me as an indication of the fact that I'm saying something that is having impact. And I know that the science that we're talking about here is useful to the negotiators. And that was Betany Karni, our professor of eco toxicology at University of Gothenburg. She was speaking to me from that UN plastics treating negotiations that have just got going in Geneva.
我知道其他科学家也遇到过类似甚至更糟糕的情况。有人因为他们的研究被告上法庭，有人由于行业对他们雇主的影响而失去了工作。我认为他们对我的行动表明我所说的话产生了影响。我也知道我们在这里谈论的科学对谈判代表是有用的。这是哥德堡大学生态毒理学教授贝塔尼·卡尼，她正在日内瓦联合国塑料条约谈判中对我说这些话。
This is news. Welcome back to news app. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and mobile networks are familiar names of wireless communication but there's a fourth contender transforming everything from city water systems to African wildlife conservation. LPWAN or low power, wide area network technology is used when you need to send small amounts of data over long distances using very little power. It's already being used in rural areas to great effect. Now let's do leaf head has this report from Portugal. Up in the mountains of the northern Algarve, close to the Spanish border, the sniffer dogs are being tested.
这是新闻。欢迎回到新闻应用。Wi-Fi、蓝牙和移动网络是无线通信中熟悉的名字，但还有一个第四个竞争者正在改变着从城市供水系统到非洲野生动物保护的一切。LPWAN（低功耗广域网络）技术用于在需要通过很小的功率在长距离传输少量数据的情况下。它已经在农村地区被有效使用。现在，让我们听听利夫·海德的葡萄牙报道。在靠近西班牙边界的北阿尔加维山区，嗅探犬正在接受测试。
They've been trained to track links, a species which was facing extinction on the Iberian Peninsula until a captive breeding program began. Pedro Samento is its technical director. And since the last 20 years the population increase from something like one hundred to almost something like three thousand. The dogs track links from their feces but real time tracking has always been important through satellite, radio and mobile phone signals. And now we are using the Laura WAN system which is the most important thing to track links. It's much more chip than using 4G. It can last a long time, several years.
他们已经被训练来追踪一种名为“山猫”的动物，这种动物在伊比利亚半岛上曾面临灭绝的危险，直到一个圈养繁育项目的启动。佩德罗·萨门托是这个项目的技术总监。过去20年间，山猫的数量从大约一百只增加到了接近三千只。这些狗通过山猫的粪便来追踪它们，但实时追踪一直以来都是通过卫星、无线电和手机信号来完成。现在我们正在使用 LoRaWAN 系统，它是追踪山猫的最重要工具。相比使用4G网络，它更加经济，并且可以持续更长时间，长达数年。
We can track links in very long distances. It's like Wi-Fi over many kilometers but only with small amounts of data, enough for location or a meter reading or to switch something on or off. Low power means long battery life and there's another advantage. We've come up on the hill and this is a very big road that cuts right through the territory of links in this area. And Pedro this has been a place where you've seen a number of the links being killed. Yes at least five links is were killed in this road and two of them are females with cubs.
我们可以在非常长的距离内追踪连接。这就像是覆盖了数公里的Wi-Fi，只传输少量数据，足以满足定位、读取仪表或开关设备。低功耗意味着电池寿命长，这也是一个优势。我们来到山上，这是一条路，从这个地区链接的领地中穿过。而且，佩德罗，这个地方是你见过很多链接被杀的地方。是的，至少有五只链接在这条路上被杀，其中有两只是带幼崽的雌性。
The links is half-colors. When the links enters a buffer of two hundred meters from the road they send a sign that can also be transmitted to the electronic panels in the road. Telling the drivers drives slowly because there's probably an animal near the road. These smaller, cheaper trackers are also helping animal conservation across Africa but it's just one use of the technology. Rubbish collection is also being streamlined by the technology. We're standing in front of three recycling bins here.
链接是半色的。当这些链接进入距离道路两百米的缓冲区时，它们会发送一个信号，这个信号也可以传输到路上的电子显示屏上。提示司机慢行，因为道路附近可能有动物。这些更小、更便宜的追踪器也在帮助非洲的动物保护，但这只是这项技术的一种应用。垃圾收集也正在通过这项技术得到优化。我们现在正站在三个回收箱前。
All of these have sensors in them to show when they're full. Yes exactly. They measure the volume inside of the bins and the central side connects or synchronize with the trucks that recollect all these waste. So they optimize the route. Hugo Tome is from Logicalis which provides the technology. Every time that we need to go to make waste recollection to detect a water leak, to measure the water consumption. This consumes time, energy, fuel.
所有这些都配有传感器，以显示何时装满。是的，正是如此。它们可以测量垃圾桶内部的容量，并与负责收集垃圾的卡车连接或同步，从而优化收集路线。Hugo Tome 来自提供这项技术的Logicalis公司。每次我们需要进行垃圾回收、检测漏水、测量用水量时，都会消耗时间、能源和燃料。
So if we have a way to recollect all these metrics, all these telemetry to a central point, of course that we can provide better service for the community, better service for the municipality itself and better service for the environment. Hugo Tomeyesh ending that report by Alistair Leithead and you can hear more of what Alistair discovered on Business Daily, where if you get your BBC podcasts. You're with NewsHour.
因此，如果我们有办法将所有这些指标和遥测数据收集到一个中央点，我们当然可以为社区提供更好的服务，为市政部门本身提供更好的服务，并为环境提供更好的服务。Hugo Tomeyesh在Alistair Leithead的报告结束时说道，您可以在BBC的播客频道Business Daily上听到Alistair的更多发现。这里是新闻时刻。
It's live from the BBC World Service in London. I'm Tim Franks. Controlling unauthorized immigration is a huge issue for many countries, a political priority for governments. In Britain, the governing Labour Party came to power, promising to exert a firm grip and yet figures just out show that more than 25,000 migrants have this year arrived in the United Kingdom via small boats crossing the Channel from France.
这里是伦敦的BBC世界服务现场报道。我是蒂姆·弗兰克斯。控制未经授权的移民对许多国家来说是个重大问题，这也是政府的政治优先事项。在英国，执政的工党上台时承诺要加强管理，但最新数据显示，今年已有超过25,000名移民通过小船从法国穿越英吉利海峡抵达英国。
And that is a record number, up or miss a half, on the same point last year. Today, a new pilot scheme agreed by the British and French government, same to reducing that number, came into force, the idea being that some of those arriving in the UK on small boats will be detained and sent back to France in return for an equal number of migrants seeking asylum in a more official manner. But a BBC investigation has laid bare just how difficult it will be as the British government has loudly promised to smash the gangs.
这已经是创纪录的数字，比去年同期增加了一半。今天，英法两国政府达成了一项新的试点计划，该计划旨在减少这一数字，已经开始实施。计划的想法是：一些乘小船抵达英国的移民将被拘留，并被送回法国，而相应的数量将由以更正式方式寻求庇护的移民补上。但是，BBC的一项调查揭示了这个计划的难度，因为英国政府已大声承诺要打击这些团伙。
The investigation has been led by our France correspondent Andrew Harding who came into the NewsHour studio to tell me about it. We have been digging into one specific gang to try and understand its operations. It's financing the ways it's evolved and managed to evade the French police. And the British police, as it turned out, because our investigation, as you'll hear in a minute, took us all the way to Birmingham in the UK where some of the payments were made. Now the French police say in their defence, they're actually stopping about 70% of all these boats, these inflatable boats, before they get onto the beaches or in the water. But these gangs, as we'll hear now, are very good at adapting.
这次调查由我们的法国特派记者安德鲁·哈丁（Andrew Harding）领导，他来到新闻时段的演播室与我谈论了这件事。我们一直在深入研究一个特定的犯罪团伙，以了解其运作方式、资金来源、如何演变，以及如何成功躲避法国警方的追捕。结果，我们的调查把我们带到了英国伯明翰，因为有些付款是在那里进行的。而法国警方则表示，为了自我辩护，他们实际上拦截了大约70%的充气船，在它们到达海滩或入水之前就被截获。然而，这些团伙非常善于适应变化，接下来我们将详细听到。
At Birmingham's New Street station, the culmination of a year long investigation. Excuse me, sir, we're from BBC News. We know you are linked to a people smuggling gang that's responsible for at least a dozen deaths. It was in April last year that we first encountered one particular smuggling gang. They were battling French police on a beach near Calais. Five people died in the chaos that followed, including a seven-year-old girl. Since then, we've been tracking this gang across Europe. We know who you are. You're a smuggler.
在伯明翰新街车站，一项为期一年的调查终于到了关键时刻。打扰一下，先生，我们是BBC新闻的记者。我们知道您与一个人口走私团伙有关，这个团伙至少对十几起死亡事件负有责任。去年四月，我们首次接触到这个特定的走私团伙。他们与法国警方在加来附近的一片海滩上发生冲突。随后的混乱中，包括一名七岁女孩在内的五人丧生。从那时起，我们就在全欧洲追踪这个团伙。我们知道您是谁，您就是走私犯。
Confronting one of the gang's leaders in Luxembourg, he quickly vanished. In France, we've now learned more about the gang's operations, as they've changed names and phone numbers. They're one of only a handful of gangs that control the actual small boat crossings themselves, carving up the coastal launch sites between them. From our contacts, we hear reports of the gang's violence on land and confirmation that it's linked to at least seven more deaths at sea, so 12 in all. The next step is for our undercover reporter to book a place by phone on a small boat. Hello, I want to leave soon. Tomorrow is good. The price is 1,400 euros. I want to be in Britain.
在卢森堡与该团伙的一名头目对质后，他迅速消失。在法国，我们现在对这个团伙的运作有了更多了解，他们更换了名字和电话号码。他们是少数几个真正控制小船过境的团伙之一，将海岸的出发点划分为各自的领地。根据我们线人的消息，我们听说了该团伙在陆地上的暴力行为，并证实至少有七起海上死亡事件与他们有关，总共12起。下一步是我们卧底记者通过电话预订一个小船的位置。你好，我想尽快离开。明天可以。价格是1400欧元。我想去英国。
The smuggler's name is Abdullah. In charge of logistics in France, a key role. He agrees the money can be paid in Britain, specifically in Birmingham. He wants it to happen fast. So we set up a meeting in Birmingham with Abdullah's contact there. We arranged for another colleague to hand over the cash at New Street Station. A young bearded man arrives as we record secretly. I have the money with me, 900 pounds, right? So that's it. He's taking the money and left the station. Now, you may well be asking why we would pay money to criminals.
走私者的名字是阿卜杜拉。他在法国负责物流，这是一个关键角色。他同意钱可以在英国支付，特别是在伯明翰。他希望这件事情能够尽快完成。于是，我们与阿卜杜拉在伯明翰的联系人安排了一次会面。我们策划让另一位同事在新街车站交付现金。一位年轻的留着胡子的男子抵达时，我们正在秘密录像。我带着钱，900英镑，对吗？就这样。他拿了钱，离开了车站。现在，你可能会问我们为什么要给罪犯送钱。
We believe it is the only way that we can gain access to the gang and expose its network, not at least its network here in the UK. At which point we need to return to France to our main undercover reporter, who is now ready to begin his journey with the gang. He heads to the forest where the smuggler Abdullah has his camp. There are often stabbing and gun fights here between rival gangs, but our smuggler seems relaxed. If the weather is good, we will leave on Tuesday. We need to move early to avoid the police. It's a cat-and-mouse game with them.
我们相信这是我们能够进入这个团伙并曝光其网络的唯一方法，特别是其在英国的网络。此时，我们需要返回法国，与我们的主要卧底记者会合，他现在准备与团伙开始他的旅程。他前往森林，那里是走私者阿卜杜拉的营地。这里经常发生敌对团伙之间的刺杀和枪战，但我们的走私者显得很放松。如果天气好的话，我们将在星期二出发。为了避开警察，我们需要早动身。与他们斗争如同猫鼠游戏。
Two days later, it's time to set off for the coast. Abdullah is scorching a big crowd south. First by train then bus, then into the woods south of the Boulogne. Our undercover colleagues slips away at this moment and we take over following the group openly now. We are hiding now in the forest with a group of about 30 migrants. Everyone is just lying down here on the forest floor waiting until dark. Try not to make a noise. There are police around here hunting for this group. Although I'm not sure what they would do if when they found them, they're not going to stop them or arrest them, but they try to locate them so they can prevent a launch tomorrow.
两天后，是时候出发去海岸了。阿卜杜拉正带着一大群人往南走。先坐火车，然后坐公交，再进入布洛涅以南的树林。在这个时刻，我们的卧底同事悄然离开，我们开始公开跟踪这群人。我们现在藏在森林里，与大约30名移民在一起。大家都躺在森林地上，等待天黑。尽量不要发出声音，这里有警察在寻找这群人。我不太确定他们找到这些人后会怎么做，他们不会阻止或逮捕他们，但他们会试图找到这些人，以防止他们明天启程。
The police finally find them, but don't intervene. Instead, we learn, early the following morning, that they found the smuggler's inflatable boat nearby and destroyed it. That's happening a lot now. Quietly, people collect their belongings and trudge away to wait for another chance to cross. Days later, we'll call Abdullah by phone and challenge him. He denies being a smuggler and hangs up. But before that, we return to Birmingham's New Street Station. We've told the gang we have more people wanting to pay for a small boat crossing. They send someone new to collect the cash.
警方终于找到了他们，但并没有干预。相反，我们了解到，第二天清晨，警方在附近发现了走私者的充气船并将其摧毁。这种情况现在经常发生。人们安静地收拾好他们的物品，拖着脚步离开，等待另一个过境的机会。几天后，我们打电话给阿卜杜拉并质问他。他否认自己是走私者，然后挂断了电话。但在那之前，我们回到了伯明翰的新街车站。我们告诉团伙，我们还有更多人愿意付钱乘坐小船过境。他们派了新人来收钱。
He's bearded, young and quick to run and I walk up to him. Excuse me, sir. We're from BBC News. You're Kurdish. Yes, we know you're linked to a people smuggling gang that's responsible for at least a dozen deaths in the channel. He sprints outside and vanishes the way this gang always seems to do. A sign of the challenges facing the authorities on both sides of the channel as they try to smash the gangs. That report from Andrew Harding, who's still here in the news studio with me, Andrew was a very graphic account of, I mean, I guess obviously the peril that these migrants have put in when they're when they agree to be trafficked in this way, but also just how tough it is for the authorities to catch up with these people. It is difficult. The French police are making progress. The British authorities are not simply trying to smash the gangs. There are many other ways they're trying to persuade people not to come to make it more difficult and so on.
他留着胡子，年轻且跑得很快，我走上前去跟他说：“先生，打扰一下。我们是BBC新闻的。您是库尔德人。是的，我们知道您与一个人口走私团伙有联系，该团伙对海峡中至少十几人的死亡事件负有责任。”他迅速跑到外面，然后消失不见，就像这个团伙总是做的那样。这显示了海峡两岸当局在试图打击这些团伙时所面临的挑战。
这是Andrew Harding的报道，他现在和我在新闻演播室。Andrew，你刚才的描述非常生动，我想显然也说明了这些移民在同意以这种方式被偷渡时所面临的危险，但同样也显示了当局抓住这些人的难度。
确实不容易。法国警方正在取得进展。英国当局不仅仅是在试图打击这些团伙，还有许多其他方法，比如劝说人们不要过来，使之变得更加困难等。
But the bottom line is that this year the numbers so far are beating all records before 25,000 already have crossed and that number increasing by hundreds a day, particularly when the weather of course is good. And that was the BBC's France correspondent Andrew Harding. And if you want to see more of Andrew's investigation, do head to our website, BBC.com forward slash news. Israel's Prime Minister Binny Minnetanyahu has met his chief of staff to discuss options for expanding the war in Gaza amid reports at Mr Netanyahu's keen to see the Israeli army seize and control the entire enclave speaking to troops today. This is what the Prime Minister had to say. It is still necessary to complete the defeat of the enemy in Gaza to release all our hostages and to ensure that Gaza will no longer pose a threat to Israel. We are not giving up on any of these tasks.
但关键是，今年的数据已经打破所有记录，目前已有超过25,000人越过边界，这个数字每天还在增加，特别是在天气好的时候。这是BBC驻法国记者安德鲁·哈丁的报道。如果你想观看安德鲁的更多调查，请访问我们的网站：BBC.com/news。以色列总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡会见了他的参谋长，讨论在加沙扩大战争的选项，有报道称内塔尼亚胡希望以色列军队能占领并控制整个飞地。今天，他在对部队讲话时表示，我们仍需彻底击败在加沙的敌人，释放所有人质，并确保加沙不再对以色列构成威胁。我们不会放弃任何这些任务。
And yet there's also been wide reporting inside Israel that the head of the Israel Defense Forces has warned the Prime Minister that an attempt to occupy Gaza fully would be a grave mistake. Ansel Feffer is Israel correspondent for the Economist. These plans have been reported widely in the Israeli media. Are they likely to be formalized later this week? We've had days and days of briefings of plans that Prime Minister Netanyahu is said to be in support of a pushing. But there hasn't been, as you said, a formal announcement. And there hasn't been a formal cabinet meeting for three weeks, a security cabinet meeting for three weeks now, which is the forum, which would decide on such a move. And now that meeting has been postponed to Thursday.
以色列国内广泛报道了这样一个消息：以色列国防军的负责人警告总理，全面占领加沙将是一个严重的错误。《经济学人》的以色列通讯员安塞尔·费弗对此进行报道。以色列媒体广泛报道了这些计划，它们可能在本周晚些时候正式化吗？我们已经进行了多日的简报，计划据说获得了总理内塔尼亚胡的支持，但正如你所说，还没有正式宣布。而且已经三周没有举行过内阁会议、三周没有召开安全内阁会议，这个会议本身是决定此类行动的论坛。而现在，该会议已推迟到星期四。
I'm not saying that this means an assailant in the out is bluffing, but there does seem to be at least an element of posturing here. There could be a number of reasons for that. It could be because he's just trying to keep the far right path is in this coalition happy with the idea that that another offensive is in the offing. It could be in the hope of perhaps of pressuring Hamas to somewhat be more flexible with its conditions in the now almost block almost dead dead ended negotiations for a ceasefire. And it could be that he is just examining various plans and also trying to show the IDF generals who's the boss. And in terms of again the reporting and I'm sure you're sort of hearing these things through your sources that the IDF chief of staff is saying this, this route would be, would be madness.
我并不是说这意味着在外面袭击者在虚张声势，但这里似乎至少有一些姿态展示的成分。可能有多种原因。可能是因为他只是想让这个联盟中极右翼的成员对即将到来的另一次攻势感到满意。也可能是希望通过这种方式，施压哈马斯让其在几乎陷入僵局的停火谈判中稍微放宽条件。或者，他可能只是在评估各种计划，同时想向以色列国防军的将军们展示谁才是老大。根据消息报道，我相信你也从你的消息来源听说过，以色列国防军参谋长表示，这条路线将是一种疯狂的选择。
What do you make of all that? Because I mean the IDF, the new IDF chief of staff is, I mean, he's, he's no, I mean, he's got a reputation being pretty hard line himself. Well, he's, you know, he's a tough graph speaking a tank officer like like many of his colleagues and the previous IDF chief of staff was also. One of these tough generals and these, these are not, you know, they're not lacking in any, in any of that, but they are also at the same time looking at what the Army is capable of doing. They know the generals know that after 22 months the IDF is exhausted. It's, it's soldiers, both it's regular soldiers and it's its a reservists have been at war now for 22 months, not just in Gaza, but also in other, on other fronts.
你怎么看待这一切？因为以色列国防军的新参谋长本身就有着强硬的声誉。他是一位坦克部队的军官，说话直截了当，和许多他的同事以及前任参谋长一样，都是铁腕的将军。这些人都不缺乏实力，但同时他们也在关注军队的真实能力。他们清楚，经过22个月的战争，以色列国防军已经非常疲惫。不仅是正规士兵，预备役人员也已经在不同战线上作战22个月，不仅仅是在加沙。
In Lebanon, Syria, there was the war very recently with Iran as well and they don't think that they currently have the capacity to take over the entire Gaza. But they don't think even if they, even if they did that would be a good idea, they understand that Hamas can always melt away into its tunnels beneath the civilians of Gaza. And they're also very concerned that such an offensive could jeopardize the lives of the remaining Israeli hostages who have now been in Gaza for 670 days.
在黎巴嫩和叙利亚，最近与伊朗之间有过战争，他们认为目前没有能力全面接管整个加沙。即使有能力，他们也觉得这样做不是好主意，因为他们了解哈马斯可以随时躲入加沙平民地下的隧道中。此外，他们也非常担心这类军事行动可能危及被关押在加沙的以色列人质的生命，这些人质已经在加沙被扣押了670天。
In terms of the noises that are coming out of Washington, what, what, what do you make of either the interest or maybe the lack of pressure there? Well, it's very difficult to judge from anything you hear from Donald Trump or his team because there's so many contradictory quotes both of the record and also the stuff that Donald Trump has been saying whenever a camera is pointed at him and so on asks about Gaza because you'll hear both Trump's belief that there is a there is a famine and hunger in Gaza and that's very badly wants to end that.
关于华盛顿传出的声音，你怎么看待那里的兴趣或缺乏压力？嗯，很难根据唐纳德·特朗普或他团队的言论做出判断，因为有太多相互矛盾的说法，无论是记录在案的还是特朗普在镜头前关于加沙话题的评论。你会听到特朗普认为加沙存在饥荒和饥饿，并且他非常希望结束这一状况。
But also you hear him very belligerent on Hamas and you don't hear him really criticizing it and the outside to judge anything and as we know Donald Trump is not known for his consistency. And that was an actual fetha, Israel correspondent for the economist, the listening to news app from the BBC. You with news app live from the BBC and it just over two hours the people of Hiroshima in Japan will mark the moment exactly 80 years ago when an American B-29 bomber called Inola Gay dropped an atomic bomb in the city.
但是你也会听到他对哈马斯的态度非常好战，你不会听到他真正地批评它。而从外界来看，无论如何判断，我们都知道唐纳德·特朗普以其不一致性而闻名。这是一位以色列经济学人记者的真实报道，在BBC的新闻应用程序上收听节目。您正在通过BBC的新闻应用收听直播，再过两个多小时，日本广岛市的人们将纪念80年前美国B-29轰炸机"伊诺拉·盖伊"投下原子弹的时刻。
It was an act that changed the course of history speeding the end of the Second World War and revealing our new capacity to destroy the planet. More than 200,000 people died from the effects of that bomb and a second dropped over Nagasaki three days later. Many of those who did survive have dedicated their lives to ridding the world of nuclear weapons, sparing future generations from the horrors they'd seen.
这是一项改变历史进程的行动，加速了第二次世界大战的结束，并揭示了我们摧毁地球的新能力。超过20万人因那枚炸弹以及三天后投在长崎的第二枚炸弹而丧生。许多幸存者一生致力于消除核武器，以便让未来的世代免受他们所见过的恐怖。
My colleague James Kmarasami has been speaking to one of those campaigning survivors, 93-year-old Setsuko Therlo who won a Nobel Peace Prize in 2017 as a leading member of the international campaign to abolish nuclear weapons. Setsuko Nakamura, as she was then, was a 13-year-old living in Hiroshima when the bomb was detonated. She began with her memories of that fateful day.
我的同事詹姆斯·卡马拉萨米最近与一位在活动中幸存下来的93岁人士——节子·瑟罗进行了交谈。她是2017年诺贝尔和平奖的获得者之一，是国际废除核武器运动的主要成员。那时，她还叫节子·中村，是广岛的一名13岁少女，亲历了原子弹爆炸。她以对那个灾难性日子的回忆作为谈话的开端。
I saw the blue issue flashed outside the window and then the sensation of flying up and floating up in the air. I obviously lost consciousness at that point. When I began the consciousness I found myself in a total darkness and silence too. I couldn't move my body so I knew I was trapped there and I was to die there. But I remained so serene. And then you started to hear a few voices around you. They were praying for God, for help and calling mothers for the help.
我看到窗外闪过一个蓝色的问题，然后感觉自己飞了起来，漂浮在空中。在那一刻，我显然失去了知觉。当我恢复意识时，发现自己完全置身于黑暗和寂静之中。我无法动弹，明白自己被困在那里，将要死去。但我却异常平静。然后，我开始听到周围传来了一些声音，他们在祈求上帝、寻求帮助，并呼唤母亲来帮忙。
And then all of a sudden some strong hands touched my shoulder, the strong voice, male voice and don't give up. Don't give up. Keep moving. Keep kicking. I'm trying to help you. You see the sun rays coming through that crack and once you're free you crawl toward it and that's what I did. You never found out who the man was who'd essentially pushed you to safety. No, but his voice is ringing in my ears even today.
然后，突然间，有双强有力的手碰到了我的肩膀，是一个低沉有力的男性声音。他说：“别放弃，别放弃，继续前进，继续努力踢。我在试着帮助你。” 你看到阳光透过那个裂缝射过来，一旦你自由了，就往那边爬，我照做了。你从未发现那个基本上把你推向安全的男子是谁，但直到今天，他的声音仍在我耳边回响。
There were quite a few girls up there in the rubble and they are the ones who were just burned to death alive. But my best friend who had the same name as my managed to survive and she came back to school and spoke to us about the last minutes before most of them just died. And she told us the girls couldn't see their faces are all messed up but they could hear each other.
在瓦砾堆上有许多女孩，那些女孩活活被烧死。但我的一个最好的朋友和我同名，她幸运地活了下来。她回到学校，和我们讲述了其他女孩在大多数人去世前的最后时刻。她告诉我们，那些女孩们看不见彼此的面孔，因为都被烧毁了，但她们仍能听到彼此的声音。
And the masked teacher who would supervise in them said of the girls if you can come close to me, let's sing songs together. They said they wanted to sing him nearer to the my God. That's what they sang until they collapse and died. This story just breaks my heart. And it makes you reflect on your own fate, does it? The fact you were lucky, luckier than them at least.
老师戴着口罩监督她们，他对女孩们说，如果你们能靠近我，就让我们一起唱歌吧。她们说想给他唱《离我更近，我的上帝》，于是她们就这样唱着，直到倒下和去世。这个故事让我心碎，它让你反思自己的命运，不是吗？至少你比她们幸运一些。
Well, I hesitate to use the word lucky. I just managed to survive. And this kind of thing was happening all over the city, thousands of people just disappear in a second. That was the immediate horror. Then there was the longer term problems that weren't immediately visible, I guess. Some survivor said the life in the aftermath was so difficult, some wished they were dead.
嗯，我不太想用“幸运”这个词。我只是勉强活了下来。这种事情在整个城市里不断发生，成千上万的人瞬间就消失了。这就是即时的恐怖。然后还有那些不那么明显的长期问题。我猜是这样。有些幸存者说，灾难后的生活太艰难了，以至于他们有时宁愿自己没有活下来。
Everybody became homeless, no food. And because we happened to be in the city, we were contaminated by some poison. So people feared to be close to us. We knew nothing about radiation effects on human body. But you obviously had direct experience with your family, your sister and her child who didn't live for much of her. We tried to nurse them, but what can we do?
大家都无家可归，没有食物。因为我们恰好身在城市，所以被一些毒物污染了。人们都害怕接近我们。我们对辐射对人体的影响一无所知。但是你显然和你的家人有直接的经历，你的妹妹和她的孩子没能活多久。我们试图照顾她们，但我们能做什么呢？
There was no medication, no food. They were begging for water constantly. And both of them died. What happened, the soldier came, they threw the dead bodies into the hole, poured the gasoline through the lighted match. They kept turning the body at the so-called cremation. Hey, stomach is not burned yet. The brain need to be burned some more. And that kind of very crudely marked. There was no dignity. They were treated like animals. I couldn't even have tears. What kind of human being am I? My dear sister and her four-year child died.
没有药物，也没有食物。他们不停地乞求水喝。最后他们都死了。士兵来了，把尸体扔进坑里，倒上汽油点燃火柴。他们翻动尸体进行所谓的火化。“喂，肚子还没烧掉呢，脑子也要多烧一会儿。”就是这样粗暴地标记处理，没有一点尊严。他们被对待得像动物一样。我甚至流不出眼泪。我成了怎样的人？我亲爱的妹妹和她四岁的孩子都死了。
How do people behave in the ultimate condition like that? Very night we sat on the top of the hill and watched all night the entire city burn. And if I responded to everything I was witnessing, I couldn't have survived. You survived and have flourished. And you've had another response to what you experienced, which is to become an advocate for the abolition of nuclear weapons. That's been your other response. Yes, I got the scholarship in the summer of 1954. I came to the United States. That's the very time the United States tested the strongest hydrogen bomb.
在极端情况下，人们会怎样表现呢？每个晚上，我们都坐在山顶，整夜看着整个城市燃烧。如果我对眼前看到的每件事情都做出反应，我可能无法生存下来。而你，不仅活了下来，还过得非常好。你对所经历的事情有了另一种回应，那就是成为废除核武器的倡导者。这是你另一个回应。是的，我在1954年夏天获得了奖学金，来到了美国。就在那时，美国测试了最强的氢弹。
That's a lot more powerful, destructive than the atomic bomb. And they dropped it on the people of Marshall Island in the Pacific. The people there started suffering the same symptoms as we did. And you decided it was important to speak out about that. I told them the United States should stop developing more and killing people and destroying the environment. Now I just wanted to end with you, the 13-year-old you clearly you could never have imagined what direction your life would take.
这比原子弹更强大、毁灭性更大。他们把这种东西投放到了太平洋的马绍尔群岛上，当地的人们开始出现与我们相同的症状。你认为有必要对这种情况发声。我告诉他们，美国应该停止继续研发毁灭性的武器，停止杀戮和破坏环境。最后，我想说的是，当你还是13岁的小孩时，你肯定无法想象你的生活会走向何方。
Having experienced something like that, how can you pretend that we don't know the issue? And astronomical amount of money is being used for building up the arms. Well, Mr. Trump urged every member of the NATO raise the military spending up to 5% or something. And Japan is not the member of NATO, but it too is prepared to raise up. That's insanity in my view. You are an incredibly powerful advocate. I would imagine you will continue doing this as long as you can. Your last breath.
经历了那样的事情后，你怎么能假装我们不了解这个问题呢？海量资金正在被用于扩充军备。特朗普先生曾敦促每个北约成员国将军费开支提高到5%或者类似水平。虽然日本不是北约成员国，但它也准备提高军费。在我看来，这简直是疯狂。你是一位极为有力的倡导者，我想象你会尽你所能，一直坚持做到最后一刻。
What a remarkable witness. It's Suca Ferlo and she was speaking to my colleague, James Camarassani. From all of us on News Air. Thanks very much for your company.
多么出色的一位证人。这是苏卡·费尔洛，她刚刚接受了我同事詹姆斯·卡马拉萨尼的采访。来自“新闻空中”的全体人员，感谢您的陪伴。