Why You Can't Focus Longer Than 60 Seconds | Johann Hari Ep. 707
发布时间 2022-08-17 18:00:19 来源
So the book starts with your godson and there's some tragic tale of him not being able to tear himself away from his devices. So you guys go to Graceland, everyone's on a tour and they're just staring at the iPad that they give you on the tour. You don't really need to even be there to do it. So tell me about this. It's kind of like a boring dystopia, isn't it? Boring dystopia, that's what I'm aiming for in life. And when he was nine, my godson developed this brief, but a freakishly intense obsession with Elvis Presley. And it was unbelievably cute because he didn't seem to know that impersonating Elvis had become a kind of cheesy cliché. So I think he was the last person in the history of civilization to do an entirely sincere impression of Elvis. So it was incredibly cute. He would sing like suspicious minds and Viva Las Vegas and do all the kind of pelvis jiggle and everything.
这本书的开头是关于你的教子，他有一个悲惨的故事，就是无法摆脱电子设备的影响。于是，你们去了格雷斯兰（猫王的故居）。在参观的过程中，每个人都在盯着旅游时发给你的iPad看，其实根本不需要亲自到场。所以和我说说这件事。这就像是一种无聊的反乌托邦，对吧？无聊的反乌托邦正是我生活中所追求的目标。而当他九岁的时候，我的教子对猫王猫王(Elvis Presley)产生了一种短暂但异常强烈的痴迷。这种情景简直是可爱极了，因为他似乎不知道模仿猫王已经成为了一种俗气的行为。所以我觉得他可能是文明史上最后一个全心全意模仿猫王的人。他会唱《Suspicious Minds》和《Viva Las Vegas》，还会模仿猫王跳舞，做那些臀部晃动的动作，真的非常可爱。
And when I used to tuck him in at night, he got me to tell him the story of Elvis's life over and over again. And I tried to skip over the bit of the end where Elvis like shit himself to death on the toilet, obviously. And one night I mentioned Graceland where Elvis lived. And he looked at me very intensely and he said, Yo Han, will you take me to Graceland one day? And I was like, sure, the way you do with nine-year-olds knowing you know. Six weeks, it'll be lap-land or some other shit. And he said, no really, do you swear you'll take me to Graceland one day? Wow. And I said, I swear I'll do it. And I didn't think of that moment again for 10 years until so many things had gone wrong. But by the time he was 15, he dropped out of school. And by the time he was 19, this will sound like an exaggeration Jordan. It's not.
当我晚上给他盖被子时，他总是让我一遍又一遍地给他讲猫王的故事。我当然尽量跳过猫王在厕所上去世的那部分。有一天晚上，我提到了猫王住的地方——格雷斯兰。他非常认真地看着我说：“Yo Han，你能有一天带我去格雷斯兰吗？”我就像哄九岁的孩子一样随口答应：“当然可以。”心想六个星期后，他可能又会想去拉普兰或者别的地方了。他却很认真地说：“不，我是认真的，你发誓会带我去格雷斯兰吗？”我说：“我发誓我会带你去。”之后我就把这件事抛在脑后整整十年，直到生活中发生了许多不如意的事情。他15岁时辍了学，19岁时，这听起来可能像夸张，Jordan，但这不是。
He spent literally almost all his waking hours alternating between his iPad, his iPhone, his laptop, and his life was just this kind of blur of WhatsApp, YouTube, porn. And it almost felt like he was kind of worrying at the speed of Snapchat when nothing still or serious could touch him. And one day we were sitting on my sofa here in London. And all day I've been trying to get a conversation going with him and I just couldn't. I just couldn't get any traction. And to be totally honest with you, I wasn't that much better, right? You know, I was sitting there staring at my own devices. And I suddenly remembered this moment all those years before and I said to him, hey, let's go to Graceland. And he looked at me completely blankly. He was like, well, the hell you talk about, didn't you remember this obsession he'd had?
他几乎把他所有的清醒时间都用在 iPad、iPhone 和笔记本电脑之间切换，他的生活就是这样被 WhatsApp、YouTube 和色情内容模糊掉了。他似乎处在像 Snapchat 这样高速运转的状态，任何静止或严肃的事情都无法触及他。有一天，我们坐在伦敦我的沙发上，整整一天我都试图和他聊点什么，但就是无法引起他的兴趣。说实话，我的状况也好不了多少，我也坐在那里盯着自己的设备。突然，我想起了多年前的一个瞬间，然后对他说，嘿，我们去 Graceland 吧。他满脸茫然地看着我，似乎完全不记得他曾经有过的那个执着。
And I reminded him and I said, you know, let's break this numbing routine. In fact, let's go on a big trip all over the South, but you've got to promise me one thing, which is that when we go, if we do it, you leave your phone in the hotel during the day because there's no point going, if you're just going to stare at your phone that whole time. And he really thought about it. He took a while to think about it and he said, you know what, I want to do this. Let's do it. And so I think it was two weeks later we took off from London. He threw to New Orleans where we went first. And there are a couple of weeks after that we've got to Graceland.
我提醒他说，我们应该打破这种麻木的生活惯例。我提议，我们来一次南方的大旅行。但你必须答应我一件事：如果我们去旅行，白天一定要把手机留在酒店里。因为如果整个旅程都盯着手机看，那就没有意义了。他认真考虑了一会儿，然后说：“我愿意尝试，我们就这样做吧。”大概两周后，我们从伦敦出发，他坐飞机去了我们第一个目的地——新奥尔良。几周后，我们到了格雷斯兰。
And when you get to the gates of Graceland, this is even before COVID, there's no person to show you around anymore. What happens is they give you an iPad and you put in earphones like the one I'm wearing now. And you, you know, the iPad goes around, it says go left, go right, it describes where you are, tells you a story about the room you're in. And in every room you go in, there's a representation of that room on the iPad, a picture. So what happens like you say, Jordan is a bit weird. We'll just walk around Graceland kind of staring at the iPads. It's a bit disconcerting. And we got to the jungle room, which was Elvis's favorite room. It's full of fake plants.
当你到达格雷斯兰的大门时，这已经是发生在新冠疫情之前的事情了，那里的导览员已经不再为你带路。他们会给你一台iPad，你就像我现在一样戴上耳机。然后，iPad会引导你，它会告诉你向左走、向右走，描述你所在的位置，并讲述关于你所在房间的故事。在每个房间里，iPad上都有该房间的图像展示。所以，就像你说的，Jordan，这有点奇怪。我们就这样在格雷斯兰四处走动，盯着iPad看，这有点让人不安。最后我们来到丛林房间，那是猫王最喜欢的房间，里面满是假的植物。
And we were standing there and there was a Canadian couple next to us. I'll never forget them. And the Canadian guy turned to his wife and he said, honey, this is amazing. Look, if you swipe left, you can see the jungle room to the left. And if you swipe right, you can see the jungle room to the right. And I laughed like you just did, right? I was like, that was quite a funny joke. And I turned and looked and him and his wife were just swiping back and forth. And I leaned over and I said, but hey, sir, there's an old-fashioned form of swiping you could do. It's called turning your head because we're actually in the jungle room. You don't have to look at it on your iPad. Literally we're there. Look, we're there.
我们站在那里，旁边有一对加拿大夫妻。我永远不会忘记他们。那个加拿大丈夫对他的妻子说，亲爱的，这真是太神奇了。你看，如果你向左滑动屏幕，就可以看到左边的丛林房间；如果你向右滑动，就可以看到右边的丛林房间。我像你一样笑了，因为这真是个有趣的笑话。我转过头，看见他和他的妻子确实在来回滑动屏幕。我靠过去说，先生，其实还有一种老派的“滑动”方式，就是转动你的头，因为我们实际上就在丛林房间里，你不需要通过iPad来看，真的，我们就在这里。
And they looked to me like I was completely deranged and backed out of the room. And I turned to my godson to laugh about it. And he was standing in the corner, staring at his iPad because for a minute we landed, he could, his iPhone rather. He couldn't stop, right? He was just staring at Snapchat. And I went up to him and I did that thing that's never a good idea with a teenage director. I tried to grab the phone out of his hands. And I said to him, I know you're afraid of missing out. But this is guaranteeing that you'll miss out. You're not showing up at your own life. You're not present at the events of your own existence. This is no way to live. And he, he stormed off. And I wandered around Memphis on my own that day and that night I found him in the heart brick hotel where we were staying. It was sitting by the swimming pool, staring at his phone and I went up to him and I apologized to having got so angry.
他们看着我，好像我完全疯了，然后退到了房间外。我转向我的教子，想和他一起笑这件事。结果他站在角落里，盯着他的iPad看——不对，其实是他的iPhone。他根本停不下来，一直在看Snapchat。我走到他跟前，做了一件永远不要对青少年做的事：我尝试从他手中抢过手机。我对他说，我知道你害怕错过一些事情，但这样一来，你就真的错过了。你都没有好好参与自己的生活，没有亲身体验自己的经历。这样生活可不行。结果他愤然离开了。我在孟菲斯独自晃悠了一整天。那天晚上，我发现他在我们住的心砖酒店里的游泳池旁，依然在盯着他的手机。我走过去，为之前的大发脾气向他道歉。
And he didn't look up from Snapchat but he said, I know something's really good. It was really wrong but I don't know what it is. And I realized we had, we'd come away to get away from this problem of being constantly distracted but there was nowhere to go because it was happening to everyone. Right. And that's when I thought I need to find out what's actually happening here. And that's why I decided to write the book. It's so tragic because I, like all jokes aside, right? You know, it's easy to go. This is funny because a lot of people right now listening are going, oh yeah, kids these days. But I'm like, wait a minute. It is a tough topic to handle without sounding like a weirdo, ludite, technophobic boomer. So I'm sympathetic to that. But also I looked up some research on this and I think you wrote about this in the book. College students switch tasks or college age people switch tasks on average every 65 seconds.
他在用Snapchat的时候没有抬头，但他说：“我知道有一些事情真的很好。但也有些东西真的很不好，但我不知道那是什么。” 我意识到，我们本来是想逃离那种时时被干扰的问题，但无处可去，因为这种情况在所有人身上都在发生。对吧？那时我想，我需要搞清楚这里到底发生了什么。因此我决定写这本书。这真是一个悲剧，因为说实话，很多人听到都会调侃说：“哦，现在的小孩就是这样。” 但我心想，等一下。这个话题很难处理，很难不被人觉得是个怪人、不喜欢技术的“老古董”。对此我很理解。不过我也查了一些研究，我认为你在书里也写到过：大学生或大学年龄的人平均每65秒就切换一次任务。
So every minute that totally checks out for me. I'm not sure adults are much better and of course I wanted to find out. Adults are like three minutes. And this isn't something that like, oh kids are all messed up. My parents are pushing it. My mom's 80. My dad is close. They love their iPads and their phones and their friends do too. And it's bananas. Everybody is either stuck in their phone or their iPad or the television if it's a previous generation. So it's not something that just affects teenagers. It might look obvious because we're paying more attention to them and because they are going in to be hopefully becoming productive members of society whereas when you're retired your time you feel like, well I can do whatever I want. I already put it in my time. It's still an addiction in a lot of ways.
每一分钟都让我觉得很有道理。我不确定成年人是否好很多，当然，我也想去了解一下。成年人大概是三分钟。而这并不是说孩子们都有问题。我父母也很沉迷，他们都接近80岁了，却也离不开他们的iPad和手机，他们的朋友也一样。这真是让人惊讶。每个人要么盯着手机、iPad，要么看电视（如果是老一代的话）。所以这并不仅仅是影响青少年的事情。我们可能更关注青少年，因为我们希望他们能够成为社会上的有用之人，而退休后，你会觉得，反正我的时间已经投入过了，现在可以随心所欲。然而，这在很多方面仍然是一种上瘾。
You're still tapping your pocket to see what's going on because you have to wait 13 seconds for the food to be ready at the restaurant or whatever. Yeah, I mean I wrote the book because I could feel it happening to me. I realized that with each year that passed things that required deep focus that are so important to me like reading a book, having long conversations, watching a film, were getting more and more like running up a down escalator. You know what I mean? Like I could see it. Yeah. But they were getting harder and harder. And like you say the evidence was pretty clear that it's happening to huge numbers of people. For every one person who was identified with serious attention problems, when I was six years old there's now a hundred kids who have been identified with that problem.
你仍然拍打口袋，看看发生了什么，因为你得在餐馆等13秒才能拿到食物。是的，我写这本书是因为我能感觉到这种情况正在发生在我身上。我意识到，随着时间的流逝，那些对我来说需要深度专注的事情，比如读书、长时间的交谈和看电影，变得越来越像是在逆行电梯上奔跑。你懂我的意思吧？我能看到这种变化。没错，这些事情变得越来越困难。正如你所说的，证据很明显，很多人都面临这种情况。比如说，现在每有一个被诊断为专注力有严重问题的人，就会有一百个孩子被认定有类似的问题。这在我六岁的时候是不可想象的。
The average office worker now focuses on only one task but only three minutes. So I wanted to understand what happened to us, right? What's going on? Most importantly what can we do about it? So I ended up going on this big journey all over the world from Moscow to Miami to Melbourne to Montreal, not just to cities that began with the letter M and I interviewed over 200 of the leading experts on attention and focus in the world. And I learned from them that there's scientific evidence for 12 factors that can make your attention better or can make it worse. Some of them are aspects of our technology. They actually go much wider than our technology. And I learned that loads of these factors that have been proven to increase attention problems have been hugely increasing in recent years.
现在的普通职员只能专注于一个任务，但也仅仅只能坚持三分钟。因此，我想弄清楚我们到底怎么了，对吧？这是怎么一回事？最重要的是，我们能怎么应对呢？于是，我开始了一次遍及全球的大型探索，从莫斯科到迈阿密，从墨尔本到蒙特利尔，不仅仅是去那些以字母“M”开头的城市，我还采访了全球200多位注意力与专注方面的顶尖专家。通过他们我了解到，有科学证据表明有12个因素可以改善或削弱你的注意力。其中一些因素与我们的科技有关，但实际上，很多因素超出了科技的范畴。而且，我了解到这些被证明会增加注意力问题的因素在近年来大幅增加。
So if you're struggling to focus and pay attention, it's not your fault. You're not weak. If your child is struggling to focus and pay attention, it's not like oh, young people today, this is happening to all of us. This is happening because of big structural reasons. The reason the book is called stolen focus is because your attention didn't collapse. Your attention has been stolen from you by some very big forces. But once we understand what's happening, we can begin to start to get our attention back in all the ways that I write about. It's just it's hard to imagine being in this state for years at a time because this is not something that only I know this.
所以，如果你难以集中注意力，这不是你的错。你并不软弱。如果你的孩子也面临类似的问题，不要觉得只是年轻人今天的问题，因为这是我们所有人都在经历的。这种情况的发生是因为一些大的结构性原因。这本书被命名为《被盗窃的专注力》，是因为你的注意力并不是自然消失的，而是被某些强大的力量夺走了。但是，一旦我们了解了发生了什么，我们就可以开始用我在书中所写的各种方法找回我们的专注力。很难想象我们会长期处于这样的状态，因为这不仅仅是我一个人知道的问题。
I always had trouble paying attention as a kid. Now that I'm an adult and I run my own company, it's actually quite a blessing because I can structure my days where sometimes if I'm having a weird, I can't focus on something. I'm like, I'm going to go outside and walk and make phone calls or I'm going to go outside and read an audio book while making my body do something. You know, I can exercise in the morning without having to worry about being late because I realize I have to do this and these coping strategies are there. Most of the time I would imagine most people in the Western world, let's say, exist in this state for literally years at a time.
我小时候一直属于注意力不集中的类型。现在长大了，自己开公司，反而觉得这是种幸运。因为我可以自己安排每天的日程，比如有时候状态不好，无法集中精力时，我会选择出去走走，同时接打电话，或者一边听有声书一边活动身体。我早上也可以去锻炼，而不必担心迟到，因为我意识到这些应对策略对我很有帮助。我想，大多数生活在西方世界的人，可能常年处于这样的状态。
You give a good analogy in the book, you say it's like someone throwing mud on your windshield. Tell me about that. It's an analogy that comes from an amazing man named Dr. James Williams who was at the heart of a Google and he became horrified by what they and other parts of Silicon Valley were doing. You know, he had a day when he was speaking to an audience of tech designers, people who are designing lots of the things that our kids are using the whole time and that we're using. And he said to them, if there's anyone here who wants to live in the world that we're creating, please put up your hand and nobody put up their hand.
在书中你给出一个很好的比喻，你说这就像有人把泥巴扔到你的挡风玻璃上。可以谈谈这个比喻吗？这个比喻来源于一位出色的人物，名叫詹姆斯·威廉姆斯博士，他曾在谷歌工作，他对谷歌和硅谷其他地方所做的事情感到震惊。有一天，他在与一群技术设计师进行演讲，这些设计师正在设计我们和我们的孩子们经常使用的产品。他对他们说，如果在场有人想生活在我们正在创造的这个世界中，请举手，结果没有人举手。
Right? And the analogy he uses is really how he gives lots of great analogies and is a really perfect, I would argue, he's the most important blaster of her attention in the world right now. He gives this great analogy, he said, you know, imagine you're driving somewhere and someone throws a huge bucket of mud all over your windshield. It doesn't matter what you got to do when you get to your destination. The matter, how important it is, the first thing you've got to do is get that mud off your windshield because if you don't get the mud off your windshield, you can't get anywhere, right?
对吧？他用的这个比喻很好，他总是能够给出很多精彩的比喻。我认为，他现在是全世界最能吸引人注意力的人之一。他举了一个很好的例子。他说，想象一下，你正在开车去某个地方，然后有人把一大桶泥浆泼到了你的挡风玻璃上。不管你到了目的地要做什么事情，也不管那件事有多重要，首先要做的就是把挡风玻璃上的泥浆清理掉，因为如果不清理掉泥浆，你就没法前进，对吗？
And he said in a way, what's happened is the retention crisis is like mud on the windshield. Doesn't matter what else you've got to do. You've got to deal with this first. I mean, I would say to anyone listening, think about anything you've ever achieved in your life that you're proud of, whether it's setting up a business, being a good parent, learning to play the guitar, whatever it is, that thing that you're proud of required a huge amount of sustained focus and attention. And when your ability to focus and pay attention breaks down, your ability to achieve your goals breaks down, your ability to solve your problems breaks down, you become less competent, you feel less good about yourself.
他用一种比喻的方式说，这种员工留存危机就像挡风玻璃上的泥巴。不管你还有多少其他事情要做，你首先得解决这个问题。我的意思是，我会对任何在听的人说，想想你生命中那些让你引以为傲的成就，不管是创办企业、做一个好家长、学习弹吉他，无论是什么，那些让你自豪的事情都需要大量的持续专注和投入。当你的专注力和注意力开始瓦解时，你实现目标的能力也会大打折扣，你解决问题的能力也会下降，你会变得不那么胜任，从而对自己感觉不那么好。
When you start to get your focus back and I try to learn from the leading experts how we can all do this, you start to feel competent again. So I think this is really important and I think when you said a really important thing Jordan, which is hard to imagine what it's like to be in this state for years and I think you've gone to a really important point that also comes from Dr. Williams, which is he argues there's three layers of attention. I would argue there's four and I agree with this additional layer. So the first one is what he calls your spotlight and most of us when we think about being distracted, this is the one we're thinking about.
当你开始找回自己的专注力时，我尝试向顶尖专家学习我们大家是如何做到这一点的，你会重新感到自信。因此，我认为这非常重要。我认为你提到的一件非常重要的事情，乔丹，就是很难想象长期处于这种状态是什么样的。我认为你提到的一个重要观点与威廉姆斯博士的观点一致，他认为注意力有三个层次。我认为有四个层次，并同意这个额外的层次。第一个层次是他称之为"聚光灯"的注意力层次，大多数人在想到分心时，想到的就是这个。
So you think about at the moment, I'm speaking to you, right? In the room I'm in, I can hear the air con unit there is making noise to the left. I've got my bookcase. I can see all my books out the window. There's people walking down the street. I'm filtering, my phone is somewhere in this room. I'm filtering all of that out and I'm just narrowing my light down to you. What a Jordan just asked me. Okay. So your spotlight is your ability to narrow down and attend to an immediate task. So let's imagine that while we were talking, I decided to go to the fridge to get another Coke Zero.
所以你想象一下，此刻我正在与你交谈，对吧？在我所在的房间里，我能听到左边的空调在响。我有一个书架，我可以看到窗口外的所有书，还有人在街上走。我在过滤这些信息，我的手机在房间里的某个地方。但我把这些都过滤掉，只专注于你。就像Jordan刚才问我的问题一样。你的"聚光灯"就是你能够集中注意力并专注于眼前任务的能力。想象一下，就在我们交谈时，我决定去冰箱拿另一罐零度可乐。
And on the way there, I get a text message from my friend Rob and I read it and I start replying and then I'm like, why the hell did I come into the kitchen and I come back and I haven't got the Coke Zero? There would be an example of my spotlight being interrupted. Now most of us, when we think about distraction, attention problems, we think about those short-term immediate interruptions and they are very real. If you're interrupted, it takes you on average 23 minutes to get back to the level of focus you had before you were interrupted. That's forever. Exactly. Well, most of us never get 23 minutes. Right. Right. So, or many of us don't. So that's one level. But above that, there's a level that the Dr Williams calls your starlight and that's not your ability to achieve just a kind of short term goal, like I want to go to the fridge and get a Diet Coke. If your ability to achieve longer term goals, like I want to set up a business, I want to write a book, I want to be a good parent, whatever it is, it's called your starlight because when you're lost in the desert and you can't figure out where you're going, you look to the stars and you're like, oh yeah, that's where I'm headed.
在去厨房的路上，我收到朋友Rob发来的短信，我一边读一边回复，然后突然想，为什么我来厨房来着？结果回去的时候，发现自己根本没拿到零度可乐。这就是我注意力被打断的一个例子。大多数人想到分心或注意力问题时，都会想到这种短期的、即时的干扰，而这确实是非常真实的。如果你被打断了，平均需要23分钟才能恢复到之前的专注水平。23分钟！真的很长时间。而大多数人很难有这种23分钟的完整专注时间。对，对于很多人来说是这样的。这是一个层面。但在这之上，还有一个层面，Williams博士称之为你的“星光”。这不是指你实现一些短期目标的能力，比如去冰箱拿一瓶健怡可乐。而是指实现长期目标的能力，比如创建一家公司、写一本书、成为一名好父母等。它被称为“星光”，因为当你在沙漠中迷失，找不到方向时，你会抬头看星星，然后意识到，“哦，原来我要去那里。”
And he argues that if we're distracted enough, we start to lose, not just our ability to achieve immediate goals, but you start to lose your longer term goals, right? And there's a level above that that he calls your daylight. And that's not your ability to achieve a long term goal. That's your ability to even think about what your longer term goals are. How do you know you want to set up a business? How do you know what it means to be a good parent, right? How do you know you want to play the guitar? Why does it matter to you, right? These things to understand, it's called daylight because you can see a room most clearly when it's flooded with daylight. And if you're constantly jammed up and stressed out and switching, switching, switching, if you never have moments of relaxation, reflection, mind wandering, your daylight becomes disrupted. I would argue there's a level of attention above even that. I would call it our stadium lights. And that's our ability not just to formulate and achieve individual goals, but our ability to achieve collective goals as a society, right?
他认为，如果我们过于分心，不仅会失去实现即时目标的能力，还会逐渐失去实现长期目标的能力。而在这之上还有一个层次，他称之为“日光”。这不仅是实现长期目标的能力，而是你对长期目标的思考能力。例如，你怎么知道自己想创业？怎么知道成为一个好父母的意义？怎么知道自己想学吉他？为什么这些对你重要？理解这些东西被称为“日光”，因为白昼之下我们看房间最清晰。如果你一直紧张忙碌，频繁切换任务，没有放松、反思和思绪游离的时候，你的“日光”就会被干扰。我认为在这之上还有一个更高的注意力层次，我称之为“聚光灯”。这不仅是制定和实现个人目标的能力，而是作为一个社会去实现集体目标的能力。
I don't think it's a coincidence we're having the biggest crisis of democracy since the 1930s, all over the world. Yeah. At the same time as we're having this huge attention crisis, we can't listen to each other, we can't talk to each other, we can't pay attention to each other in the same ways. If you can't do that, you can't deal with really big goals. Whatever they, whatever those big goals, you know, and the climate crisis being an obvious one, it's not the only reason why we can't deal with it, but it's a big one. So you're absolutely right that what seems at first like a small problem when you follow the trail of evidence, this is at the heart of so many of the problems that we're facing, both as individuals in the short term and the long term, and as a society, I would argue.
我认为我们正在经历自20世纪30年代以来全球最大的民主危机，这并不是巧合。同时，我们还面临严重的注意力危机：我们无法倾听彼此，无法相互交流，不能像以前一样关注对方。如果我们做不到这些，就无法应对真正重大的目标。不管那些大目标是什么，比如气候危机就是一个明显的例子，这不是我们无法解决它的唯一原因，但却是一个重要的原因。所以你说得很对，当你追踪证据时，看似一个小问题实际上是我们面临的许多问题的核心，不论从短期和长期来看，都是如此，我认为这是整个社会面临的挑战。
Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. I think also to build on that, solving big problems as a society requires concentrated focus over a sustained period of time, which is unfortunate for what we're talking about, which is that we can't get concentrated focus over even a short period of time in a lot of ways. For example, it's going to be like you said, very hard to defend our democracy and resist the slip towards authoritarianism. If all we're doing is losing our shit on Instagram and Facebook comments because of some outrage clickbait that your classmate from high school posted on social media, right? So that's totally right. And you've gone to two really important things that you're, can you want me asking, how old are you? 42. Right, so we're at the same age. You're one year younger than me. So you'll remember, I remember, for young listeners who don't think about the ozone layer crisis, right? Oh, yeah.
是的，这确实很有道理。为了在社会中解决重大问题，我们需要在长时间内保持专注和投入，而这恰好是我们当前面临的难题，因为在很多情况下，我们甚至难以在短时间内集中注意力。例如，正如你所说，如果我们只是因为某个老同学在社交媒体上分享的博眼球假新闻而在Instagram和Facebook的评论中大发脾气，那捍卫我们的民主制度并抵抗向威权主义滑坡就会变得非常困难。所以你说得完全正确。你提到的两点都非常重要，对了，我能问一下你几岁了吗？42岁。哦，那我们差不多大，我比你大一岁。你应该还记得，我也记得，对于年轻的听众来说，你们可能都没怎么听说过臭氧层危机，对吧？哦，没错。
So this is like a formative thing for me when I was a kid. I'm sure it's for you. For young listeners who don't know, the planet is surrounded by a layer of ozone, which protects us from the sun's rays. And in the 80s, it was discovered that there was a chemical called CFCs in hairsprays and fridges that was damaging the ozone layer. And we've left out. Coral corbans, if memory serves. Exactly. And we loved our hairsprays in the 80s. So this was a little bit of a vote, right? And it was causing a whole above the ozone layer and the Arctic. And so the sun's rays were getting stronger and it was going to melt the Arctic, right? This was a huge, and if it continued, it would have destroyed the whole ozone layer and it would have ended life on Earth. It was a huge crisis.
这对我来说是一个成长过程中非常重要的事情。我想对你来说也是如此。对于不知道的年轻听众来说，地球被一层臭氧层包围，它保护我们免受太阳光线的伤害。在80年代，人们发现发胶和冰箱中含有一种叫做CFCs的化学物质，它正在破坏臭氧层。如果我没记错的话，还有氯氟烃。没错，我们在80年代很喜欢使用发胶。因此，这就像是一种选择，而这些化学物质导致了臭氧层和北极上空形成了一个洞。所以太阳的光线变得更强烈，并且可能会导致北极融化。如果这种情况持续下去，就会完全破坏掉臭氧层，进而威胁到地球上的生命。这是一场巨大的危机。
Now what happened is that crisis was discovered by scientists. It was explained to the public. The public were able to pay attention to it. They were able to distinguish the real science from lies and conspiracy theories. They then, in a sustained way, ordinary people all over the world pressured their governments to ban CFCs. In countries as different as Russia and the United States. And during the Cold War, I'm not sure. At the height of the Cold War. And all over the world, those governments united to ban that chemical CFCs. And governments again, as different as Mikhail Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher. They banned them, the ozone layer of fire. So why is my phone doing that? Sorry. I want to be interrupted by my phone.
现在发生的事情是，科学家们发现了一场危机，并向公众解释了这一现象。公众能够关注这个问题，分辨出真实的科学和谣言、阴谋论的区别。然后，全世界的普通民众持续地向各自的政府施压，要求禁止使用CFCs。在如俄罗斯和美国这样截然不同的国家，这种情况都发生了。而且是在冷战期间。世界各地的政府团结起来，禁止了CFCs这种化学物质。不论是像米哈伊尔·戈尔巴乔夫和玛格丽特·撒切尔这样各异的政府领导人，他们都采取了行动，成功地保护了臭氧层。对不起，我的手机打扰到了我。
Yeah, your focus is being stolen. I'd switched off. I don't. Great. Exactly. We should just do that in because then it's still a freaking. It was actually because we started a bit earlier than I was expecting. That was my alarm reminding me to do this. Right. Hey, don't be late for the interview. Exactly. Exactly. The bitterness. But yeah, we dealt with the problem, right? The ozone layer is now healed. Right. I don't think anyone listening believes that would happen now.
是的，你的注意力被分散了。我已经关掉了。我没有。好吧。正是如此。我们应该那样做，因为这样就不会那么烦人了。实际上，我们开始得比我预期的要早一些。这是我的闹钟在提醒我去做这件事。对，不要错过面试。没错，没错，总有这样的问题。不过我们已经解决了，不是吗？臭氧层已经恢复了。对，不过我想没有人相信这种事情现在会发生。
Right. What would happen is you'd get a group of people who would understand science, or organize around it, would wear ozone layer badges. You get another group of people who'd say, well, how do we even know the ozone layer exists? Maybe the hole in the ozone layer was made by George Soros. Maybe it was made by Jewish space lasers. They can't. You know, we would turn it into a tribal form of antagonization. We would scream at each other. We'd have very good hashtags. And the whole thing would go to shit, right? And we've got to understand the underlying reasons why this is happening, because the factors that are harming our individual attention are also to a significant degree of the factors that are harming our collective attention.
好的，会出现这样一种情况：一群理解科学或围绕科学组织起来的人会佩戴臭氧层标志。而另一群人则会质疑，例如，我们如何知道臭氧层真的存在？可能臭氧层的空洞是乔治·索罗斯造成的，也可能是犹太太空激光造成的。这些人不能接受科学的解释，于是我们会把这变成一种部落式的对抗。我们会互相叫嚷，创造出很多热门话题标签，最终整个事情会变得一团糟，对吧？我们需要理解这背后的原因，因为那些影响我们个人注意力的因素在很大程度上也是影响我们集体注意力的因素。
So you mentioned, you know, getting outraged by some negative social media posts. So I think it's really worth thinking about one of the 12 factors that I write back in stone of focus. It's harming our attention and focus, which is playing out at both these levels, individually and collectively. So anyone listening, if you open Facebook now, or TikTok, or Twitter, or Instagram, any of the mainstream social media apps, they start to make money immediately in two ways.
你提到，因为一些负面的社交媒体帖子而感到愤怒。我认为确实值得思考我写的十二个对注意力有影响的重要因素之一。这个因素正在个人和集体层面上影响我们的注意力和集中力。任何正在听的人，如果你现在打开Facebook、TikTok、Twitter或Instagram这些主流社交媒体应用，他们会立刻通过两种方式赚钱。
And I learn this from interviewing people in Silicon Valley who designed key aspects of the technology we use, including some of these apps. So the first way they start to make money is obvious. You see ads, okay, everyone understands that. You don't need me to explain it. The second way is much more valuable and important. And I know you understand this very well, Jordan. Everything you do on these apps is scanned and sorted by their artificial intelligence algorithms to figure out who you are. So let's say that you've said on Facebook that you like, I don't know, Bernie Sanders, Bet Middler, and you told your mom you just bought some diapers.
我从采访硅谷那些设计我们日常使用技术（包括一些应用程序）的关键人物中学到了这一点。他们赚钱的第一种方式显而易见，就是广告。大家都理解这个，不需要我多说。第二种方式则更有价值和重要性。而且我知道你对这点很了解，乔丹。在这些应用程序上的一切行为都会被其人工智能算法扫描和排序，以判断你是谁。比如说，在Facebook上你说过你喜欢伯尼·桑德斯、贝特·米德勒，并且告诉了你妈妈你刚买了尿布。
Okay, so it's going to figure out. You like Bernie, you're probably left wing. You like Bet Middler, if you're a man, probably means you're gay, you know, disrespect to at least straight fans of Bet Middler, I've never met any. And you told your mom you bought diapers, okay, you got a baby, right? So it's figuring out all this information about you. It has got tens of thousands of these data points about you. It knows you really well, right? Now, it's gathering that information partly because it wants to sell that information to advertisers because famously, you are not the customer of any of these apps.
好的，所以它会分析你的信息。如果你喜欢伯尼，那你可能是左翼。如果你是男性又喜欢贝特·米德勒，那可能意味着你是同性恋。不过，不是想冒犯喜爱贝特·米德勒的异性恋粉丝，只是我没遇到过。然后你告诉你妈妈你买了尿布，那肯定是你有宝宝，对吧？所以它就在分析你的这些信息。它有上万个关于你的数据点，非常了解你。它收集这些信息，部分原因是想把这些信息卖给广告商，因为众所周知，你并不是这些应用的客户。
You are the product, your attention is the product they sell to the real customer, the advertisers. So if an advertiser is selling diapers, he wants to target it at people who've got babies, right? But equally importantly, they're gathering all this information to find the weaknesses in your attention. For a very simple reason, every time you open the app and start scrolling, they begin to make money, and every time you close the app, that revenue stream disappears. So all of this AI, all of these algorithms, all of this genius is ultimately geared simply towards one thing. Figuring out how do we get Jordan to pick up his phone as often as possible and scroll as long as possible.
你就是产品，你的注意力就是他们卖给真正客户（广告商）的产品。比如，如果广告商在卖尿布，他们希望能将广告投放给有孩子的人，对吧？同样重要的是，他们收集所有这些信息是为了找出你注意力的弱点。原因很简单，每次你打开应用并开始浏览，他们就开始赚钱，而每次你关闭应用，这个收入来源就消失了。所以，所有的人工智能、算法和智慧，最终都是围绕一个简单的目标而设计的：弄清楚如何让你尽可能频繁地拿起手机，并尽量长时间地浏览。
How do we get your kids to pick up their phone as often as possible and scroll as long as possible? Just like the head of KFC, all he cares about is how much KFC did you eat today? How big was the bucket you bought, right? All these companies ultimately care about, for all the flannel about wider goals, is how long and how often did you scroll? Now, that interacts with what you're saying about outrage in a really interesting way. So picture, we could think about an individual level and a social level.
我们如何让你的孩子尽可能频繁地拿起手机并尽可能长时间地滑动呢？就像肯德基的负责人一样，他只关心你今天吃了多少肯德基？你买的桶有多大，对吧？这些公司最终关心的，无论他们多么强调更广泛的目标，实际上还是你滑动手机的时间有多长和多频繁。现在，这与您提到的关于愤怒的内容有趣地相互交织。因此，我们可以从个人层面和社会层面来考虑这个问题。
So picture two teenage girls who go to the same party and go home on the same bus. And one of them does a little TikTok video or a Facebook status update or whatever she does, saying, ah, that was a great party. I had a great time, everyone lovely, what a nice time. And the second girl does a video or a status update where she goes, Karen was a fucking skank at that party and the boyfriends and assholes and she does an angry rant against everyone. Now, the algorithms are scanning everything for the kind of words you're using. And it'll put that first status update into a few people's feed, but it'll put the second update into far more people's feeds for a very simple reason. The algorithms are constantly scanning to figure out what kind of things keep people scrolling and what kind of things make them put down their phone.
想象一下两个十几岁的女孩去参加同一个派对，并乘坐同一辆公交车回家。一个女孩拍了个小视频上传到抖音或者在脸书上更新状态，或者干点别的，内容是：“啊，这个派对真棒。我玩得很开心，大家都很可爱，真是个美好的时光。”而另一个女孩则发布了一个视频或状态更新，上面写着：“Karen在派对上真是个贱人，那些男朋友们都是混蛋。”她对每个人都进行了愤怒的指责。
如今，算法会扫描你用的词汇。第一个女孩的状态更新会被推送到一些人的动态中，而第二个女孩的更新则会被推送到更多人的动态中，原因很简单。算法一直在扫描，想要找到能够让人们不停刷手机的内容，以及哪些让人们不再看手机的内容。
And although this wasn't the intention of anyone, any of these apps, they bumped into an underlying psychological truth that's been known about by psychologists for more than 100 years. It's called negativity bias. Negativity bias is really simple. And human beings will stare longer at things that make them sad or angry than they will at things that make us feel happy and good, right? Anyone who's ever seen a car accident on the highway knows exactly what I mean. You stare longer at the car accident than you did at the pretty flowers on the other side of the street, right? This is very deep in human nature.
尽管这并不是任何人或这些应用程序的初衷，但它们不经意间触碰到了一个心理学家已知超过100年的潜在心理真相：负面性偏见。负面性偏见非常简单，就是人类往往会更长时间地盯着让他们感到悲伤或愤怒的事物，而不是那些让他们感到快乐和美好的事物。任何一个在高速公路上见过交通事故的人都能明白我的意思。你盯着交通事故看的时间比你看街对面的漂亮花朵的时间要长，对吧？这是一种深入人类本性的特征。
10-week-old babies will stare longer at things that make them, they'll stare longer at an angry face than they do at a smiling happy face, right? It's probably for good evolutionary reasons. Our ancestors who were vigilant to scary, angering things survived and got to be our ancestors and the ones that just stared at the pretty flowers got eaten, right? Now, negativity bias has a bad, when negativity bias combines with algorithms designed to maximize scrolling, you end up with a terrible effect where what these apps will do, just in an automated way, is they will start feeding people far more of the things that make them angry and upset and far less of the things that make them feel good.
10周大的婴儿会更长时间地盯着让他们产生情绪反应的事物，他们会比盯着微笑的快乐脸庞更长时间地盯着生气的脸。这可能有很好的进化原因。我们的祖先对可怕和愤怒的事物保持警觉，因此得以存活并成为我们的祖先，而那些只盯着美丽花朵的人则被吃掉了。现在，当消极偏见与旨在最大化滚动内容的算法相结合时，就会产生一种不良影响。这些应用程序会自动地开始让人们更多地接触到令他们愤怒和沮丧的内容，而较少接触到让他们感觉良好的内容。
Now, that's bad enough at the level of two teenage girls on a bus, we all know what's happening to girls' mental health. People like Professor Jules Twangie have documented this very, Professor Johnathan Hyte have documented this very well. But imagine a whole society plugged into an anger machine. Except you don't have to picture it. We've been living it for the last 10 years, right? If countries as different as Britain, Burma and Brazil are going crazy in the same ways, you know there's an underlying mechanism.
这已经够糟糕了，仅在公交车上两个十几岁女孩的层面，我们都知道女孩们的心理健康正在发生什么变化。像Jules Twangie教授这样的人已经详细记录了这一点，Johnathan Hyte教授也记录得非常好。但想象一下，整个社会都被连接到一个愤怒机器上。其实你不用想象，因为在过去的10年里，我们一直生活在这样的现实中。如果像英国、缅甸和巴西这样不同的国家出现相似的疯狂现象，你就会明白其中有一个潜在的机制。
And it is these machineries that are outraged are explicitly, you know, the UN said, in Burma there was a genocide against the Muslim minority in the danger. It was supercharged by these algorithms, right? Now, similar dynamics, of course, it's not caused to genocide in our societies, but similar dynamics have been at play in the United States, why I spend most of my time, and across the world. So absolutely, the factors that are harming individual attention are the factors that are harming collective attention, which is why we need to get to the solutions that actually do exist to these problems.
正是这些机制引发了愤怒。众所周知，联合国指出，在缅甸，针对穆斯林少数群体发生了种族灭绝事件，这种情况被这些算法推波助澜。当然，类似的动态虽然没有在我们的社会中引发种族灭绝，但确实在美国及全球范围内产生了影响。因此，损害个人注意力的因素也是损害集体注意力的原因，这就是我们需要找到解决这些问题的方法的原因。
Yeah, this is terrifying, right? Because the technology we use is shaping our mind, and that it almost means like our brains are becoming Instagram, TikTok and Twitter, which, you know, dot, dot, dot, we are actually doomed. So if we're not doing, that's the first bit. It was right, second bit. And I'm sarcastic here, but we really do need to take care in the tech that we use and how we use it, because ultimately our minds will be shaped by these technologies.
是的，这真是令人恐惧，对吧？因为我们使用的技术正在塑造我们的思维，这几乎意味着我们的头脑正在变得像Instagram、TikTok和Twitter一样，这意味着我们事实上可能注定要失败。所以如果我们不这样做，那就是第一步。是的，第二部分。我在这里有些讽刺，但是我们确实需要谨慎对待我们使用的技术以及使用它们的方式，因为最终我们的思维将被这些技术所影响。
A lot of us, like, if you know that's exactly what I'm saying, the book, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we think we're immune to it, but it's like we're not, you know, there's, my wife and I were talking the other day, and she's like, man, it just seems like so many things are going wrong. True, there's a war in Europe, you know, for the first time in a long time, and there are a lot of things that are going wrong. But when you look at actual data based on things that are going wrong, like poverty and, and, and mater, babies dying, and all these, these, you know, world hunger, we're actually, this sort of Stephen Pinker, who's been on the show, idea is actually it's a great time to be alive.
很多时候，如果你明白我在说什么，那本书，没错，没错，我们以为自己对这一切免疫，但实际上并不是这样。我和妻子前几天聊过，她说，好像很多事情都在变糟。确实，最近欧洲发生了战争，这是很长一段时间以来的第一次，还有很多其他糟糕的事情。但是，当我们查看那些与问题相关的实际数据时，比如贫困、孕产妇和婴儿死亡、全球饥饿等，我们会发现，正如斯蒂芬·平克在节目中所说，现在其实是一个非常好的时代。
Like, it's really bad for some people. The difference is that now we know about it up to the minute, and we're bombarded by their suffering constantly. In addition to made-up nonsense that's, that's not really happening to us, that's designed to get us to stay in the app, click on the thing, and be pissed off. Well, Stephen Pinker is a wonderful person. I know him and really admire his work, and he's right that there are some really positive long-term trends. And of course, he acknowledges some negative long-term trends as well.
有些人的状况真的很糟糕。不同的是，现在我们可以实时了解到他们的痛苦，并且不断被这些信息轰炸。此外，还有那些虚构的事情，它们并没有真正发生在我们身上，只是为了让我们一直留在应用上、点击内容、并感到愤怒。不过，史蒂芬·平克是一个很出色的人。我认识他，非常钦佩他的工作。他说得对，有些长期趋势是非常积极的。当然，他也承认了一些消极的长期趋势。
But I've, there's a different analogy to think about this. I learned about it from Professor Joel Negu, who's one of the leading experts on children's attention problems in the world. He's in Portland in Oregon, right? Interviewed him, he's Professor there. And he drew an analogy with the obesity crisis. He said, we need to question whether we should be drawing this analogy. If you look at a picture of a beach in the United States, or anywhere in the world in say, 1960, at first it looks really weird to us, because everyone is what we would call slim or buff. Literally everyone.
我从Joel Negu教授那里学到了一个不同的比喻，他是全球儿童注意力问题的顶尖专家之一。他在俄勒冈州的波特兰任教。我采访过他，他提出了一个与肥胖危机的类比。他说，我们需要思考是否应该使用这个类比。如果你看看1960年左右美国或世界上任何地方的海滩照片，你会发现，这些画面对我们而言很奇怪，因为照片中的每个人看起来都很苗条或健壮，几乎没有例外。
And you look at it and you're like, well, where's everyone else? Right? What happened to them? And then you look at the figures for obesity, there was basically no obesity in the 1960s, right? In the early 1960s, anywhere in the world, it was exceptionally low, right? Less than 1% of the population. And then what happened is obesity, rose and rose and rose and rose and rose. And now a majority of Americans, including me, are overweight or obese, right? What happened? It's not that we just all individually got lazy or whatever they're kind of stigmatizing things we say, but obese and overweight people.
当你看到这个问题时，你可能会问：“那么其他人都去哪了？发生了什么？” 如果看看肥胖的数据，在20世纪60年代的时候，全球的肥胖率基本上是没有的，对吧？在20世纪60年代早期，肥胖率极低，世界上任何地方都不到1% 。然后肥胖问题开始不断增加，现在大多数美国人，包括我自己在内，都超重或肥胖。这到底是怎么回事呢？这并不是说我们就突然变得懒惰，或者像那些给肥胖者贴标签的人所说的那样简单。
What happened is the way we live profoundly changed, the food we eat would be unrecognizable to our grandparents or our great grandparents now, right? So the food supply system completely changed. We built cities that it's essentially impossible to walk or bike around. I spent a lot of the pandemic in Las Vegas, good luck by squaring around Las Vegas, right? Yeah. And we became more stressed and that, of course, makes you want to come for eat more.
我们的生活方式发生了巨大的变化，我们现在吃的食物让我们的祖父母或曾祖父母都难以辨认，对吧？所以食品供应系统完全改变了。我们建造的城市基本上让人难以步行或骑自行车。我在疫情期间大部分时间都待在拉斯维加斯，在那里步行或骑车几乎不可能。与此同时，我们变得更加紧张，这当然让我们更想通过吃东西来寻求安慰。
So huge structural changes happened. And as a result, we became much more obese. And societies that didn't make those changes or that weren't hard to counteract them like the Netherlands have low levels of obesity and the societies that didn't like the US and Britain have high levels of obesity. So Professor Nick said we need to ask just like we've got what's called an obeseogenic environment, an environment that was easy to become obese and hard to be the medically right way.
发生了巨大的结构性改变。结果，我们变得更加肥胖。而那些没有进行这些改变或者很难去抵消这些改变的社会，比如荷兰，则保持较低的肥胖率；而像美国和英国这样的社会，则有较高的肥胖率。所以，尼克教授说，我们需要问问自己，就像我们处在一个所谓的致肥环境中，一个容易让人变胖、却很难保持适宜健康体重的环境。
Similarly, he was asking, are we living in what he said called an attentional pathogenic environment? An environment that is systematically undermining our ability to focus and pay attention. And when I looked at the evidence for these 12 factors, I really became convinced that we are, I'll give you an example of it's okay, but another one of these causes that I think will be playing out for pretty much everyone listening and watching.
他也在质疑，我们是否生活在一个他称之为“注意力致病环境”的地方？这种环境是否在系统地削弱我们的专注力和注意力。当我查看这12个因素的证据时，我真的相信我们确实身处这样的环境。我可以给你一个例子，如果可以的话，但我想其中另一个因素可能对大多数听众和观众都会产生影响。
So I went to MIT to interview Professor Earl Miller, who's one of the leading neuroscientists in the world, an amazing man. And he said to me, look, you've got to understand one thing about the human brain more than anything else. You can only consciously think about one or two things at a time. That's it. This is a fundamental limitation of the human brain. The human brain has not changed significantly in the last 40,000 years. It's not going to change all the early times, if I was going to see, you can only think consciously about one or two things at a time.
所以我去了麻省理工学院，采访了世界顶级神经科学家之一的厄尔·米勒教授，他是一位了不起的人。他对我说，你必须明白关于人类大脑的一件重要事情：你一次最多只能有意识地思考一到两件事情，仅此而已。这是人类大脑的一个根本局限。人类大脑在过去的四万年里并没有显著改变，也不会在短时间内改变，所以每次你有意识地思考时，只能专注于一到两件事情。
But what's happened is we've fallen for a mass delusion. The average teenager, for example, now believes they can follow six or seven forms of media at the same time. So what happens is Professor Miller, scientist like him, get people into labs, not just young people, but older people too. And they get them to think they're doing more than one thing at a time. And what they discover is always the same. You can't do more than one thing at a time. What you do is you juggle very rapidly between tasks. You're like, wait, what did Jordan just ask me? What's this message on WhatsApp? Wait, what does it say on the TV there about Ukraine? Wait, what did Jordan just ask me again? So we're constantly juggling. And it turns out that juggling comes with a really big cost. The technical term for it is the switch cost effect.
但是我们却陷入了一个集体错觉。比如，现在普通的青少年相信自己可以同时关注六七种媒体形式。那么会发生什么呢？米勒教授这样的一些科学家会把大家带到实验室里，不只是年轻人，还有年长一些的人。他们让这些人觉得自己可以同时做多件事情。最后的发现总是一样的：我们无法真正同时处理多项任务。实际上，我们是在任务之间快速切换。你可能会想，“等一下，乔丹刚才问了什么？WhatsApp上的这条消息是什么？电视上关于乌克兰的新闻在说什么？乔丹刚才问了我什么？”我们不断在不同的任务间切换。事实证明，这种切换代价不小。在专业术语中，这被称为“切换成本效应”。
So when you try and do more than one thing at a time, the evidence shows you will do all the things you're trying to do much less competently. You'll make more mistakes. You'll be much less creative. You'll just screw up a lot more. And remember, when I first studied the scientific evidence about this, I remember thinking, OK, I get it, but this must be a small effect. This is a really big effect. I'll give you an example of a small study that's backed by a wider body evidence that really helped me to get my head round this. Hewlett-Packhart, the printer company, got a scientist into study their workers. And he split the workers into two groups. And the first group was told, get on with your task, whatever it is, and you won't be interrupted. Just do it without any interruptions.
所以，当你试图同时完成多项任务时，证据表明你在做这些事情时的能力会大打折扣。你会犯更多的错误，你的创造力会大幅下降，你会更多地搞砸事情。记得我最初研究这些科学证据时，我心想，好吧，我明白了，但这影响应该很小才对。结果发现，影响其实很大。我来给你举个例子：总是把握着比这更广泛证据的小型研究，有助于我更清楚地理解这一点。惠普公司曾让一名科学家研究他们的员工，他将员工分成两组。第一组被告知可以专心工作，任何任务都不会被打扰。
And the second group was told, get on with your task, whatever it is, but at the same time, you're going to have to answer a heavy load of emails and phone calls. And then at the end of it, the scientist, Dr. Glenn Wilson, tested the IQs of both groups. The first group, the group that had not been interrupted, scored 10 IQ points higher than the group that had been interrupted. To give you a sense of how big that is, if you want me sat down now, Jordan, and we smoked a fast bluff and got stoned, our IQs would go down by five points. So in the short term, being chronically interrupted and distracted in the way so many of us are, is twice as bad for your intelligence as getting stoned, right? Now, you'd be better off sitting at your desk, doing one thing at a time as smoking a spliff than you would sitting at your desk, not smoking a spliff and being constantly interrupted.
第二组被告知继续自己的任务，但同时还需要处理大量的电子邮件和电话。在实验结束时，科学家Glenn Wilson博士测试了两组的智商。结果显示，没有被打扰的第一组的智商得分比被打扰的第二组高出10分。为了让你明白这个差距有多大，假设我们现在坐下并抽一根大麻，我和你的智商会下降5分。也就是说，从短期来看，经常被打扰和分心对智力的影响是吸食大麻的两倍。换句话说，与其坐在桌边被不断打扰而不吸大麻，不如专心做一件事而吸点大麻。
Now, to be clear, you'd be better off knowing they're getting stoned, living, interrupted, sadly. But this is why Professor Miller says, we are living in what he called a perfect storm of cognitive degradation as a result of being constantly erupted and of course, a being exposed to technology that is designed to interrupt us, right? That is designed to maximally interrupt us precisely because of that business model we were talking about, where the longer you scroll the more money they make. Right, so we're making ourselves dumber, which also sort of checks out for me. It's like texting and driving and they're now funding out. It's as bad, possibly worse than drunk driving, right? And these companies are spending billions of dollars in research trying to hack our focus and steal it.
现在，要明确一点，你最好知道他们正在沉迷其中，生活被打断，这令人遗憾。但这也是为什么米勒教授说，我们正在经历他所称之为的“认知退化的完美风暴”。这源于我们不断受到打扰，并接触那些被设计来打断我们的技术，对吧？这些技术的设计初衷就是为了不断打断我们，因为这种商业模式就是你滚动屏幕的时间越长，他们赚的钱就越多。所以，我们其实是在让自己变得更笨。对于我来说，这有点像边开车边发短信。他们现在发现，这种行为和酒驾一样糟糕，甚至可能更糟。而这些公司正在投入数十亿美元的研究，试图侵入我们的专注力并盗取它。
The example, one of the examples you give in the book is Gmail buzzing every time we get an email. And whenever somebody's phone buzzes and I see Gmail pop up, I'm like, you have your Gmail notifications on? That is like, that's like not locking your door at night in a bad neighborhood. Well, the only thing I disagree with what you said is we're doing it. They're doing it to us, right? So these forces are doing this to us. Now, there's a degree to which we're complicit in it, but overwhelming, and this is of something that's being done to us. And that brings that kind of raises as well for all of the 12 factors that I wrote about in the book. And obviously, after these aspects of our tech are only one of them.
书中你提到的一个例子就是，每次我们收到邮件时，Gmail会发出提示音。而每当我看到有人手机震动并出现Gmail的通知时，我都想，"你竟然打开了Gmail通知？" 这就像在一个治安不好的地区晚上不锁门一样。对你说的唯一不同意见是，这些事情是我们被迫经历的，某种程度上我们也有责任，但主要是我们被动承受的结果。这种情况也适用于我在书中写到的12个因素中的其他方面。显然，这些科技带来的影响只是其中之一。
For all of these 12 factors, I would argue there's sort of two levels at which we need to respond. There's what I think of as defense and offense, right? So let's think about switching because we just talked about that. It's an easy one to illustrate. So if you can see this, but I have over there behind where we are, I've got something called a K-safed, right? It's a plastic safe. You take off the lid, you put in your phone, you put on the lid, you turn the dial at the top, and it will lock your phone away for anything between five minutes and a whole day, right? I use that for four hours a day to do my writing. I want to sit down and watch a film with my boyfriend and that's where we both imprison our phones in the phone jail.
对于这12个因素，我认为我们需要从两个层面来应对：防守和进攻。让我们以切换注意力为例，因为我们刚刚谈到了这个问题，这是一个容易说明的例子。如果你能看到的话，在我们后面，我放着一个叫做K-safe的东西，这是一个塑料保险箱。你打开盖子，把手机放进去，盖上盖子，然后转动顶部的旋钮，它会把你的手机锁起来，可以锁定5分钟到一天的任意时长。我每天用这个锁住手机4个小时来写作。我想和我男朋友一起坐下来观看电影，这时我们就会把手机放进这个“手机监狱”。
I have my friends around for dinner and everyone puts their phone away in the phone bin, right? And people get really stressed at first and I kind of go, you know, it's okay, you're not Joe Biden. You don't need to give orders right now, right? Like the world can cope without you for two hours. And it's funny, they're very agitated and then you see the relief once it's begun, right? So that's one of dozens of individual changes that I propose in the book that we can all take to protect ourselves in our children at an individual level.
我邀请朋友们来家里吃晚饭，大家在“手机收纳盒”里放好手机，对吧？一开始，大家都很紧张，我就会说，放轻松，你又不是乔·拜登，现在不需要下达什么命令，对吧？这个世界可以在两个小时内没有你的参与而运转下去。挺有趣的，起初他们很焦虑，但是你会看到，当活动开始后，他们感到如释重负。这是我在书中提出的数十种个人改变之一，我们都可以通过这样的方式来保护自己和孩子。在个人层面上，我们可以采取这些措施。
But I want to be really honest with people in a way, because I don't think, truthfully, I don't think most books about attention are being honest with people. I am passionately in favor of these individual changes. They're really important, they will really help. But on their own, they won't solve the whole problem. Because at the moment, it's like someone is pouring itching powder over us all day and then leaning forward and going, hey buddy, you might want to learn how to meditate then you wouldn't scratch so much.
但我想以一种坦诚的方式与人们交流，因为我认为很多关于注意力的书其实并没有真正做到坦诚。个人层面的改变我非常支持，这些改变真的很重要，它们确实会有所帮助。但是，仅靠这些改变无法解决整个问题。因为目前的情况就像是有人整天向我们撒痒痒粉，而后热心提醒我们说：“嘿，朋友，你最好学会冥想，这样你就不会一直想去抓痒了。”
And you want to go, well, fuck you, I'll learn to meditate. That's really valuable. But you need to stop pouring this damaging powder over me and my kids, right? And so we have to actually go on offense against the forces that are doing this, trust. I know that can sound a bit fancy in abstract. So I'll give you a very specific example that helps to do with switching. There's lots of other examples, obviously, that I took back in the book.
你想走，那好吧，去你的，我会学会冥想。这很重要。但你必须停止把这种有害的“粉末”洒在我和我的孩子身上，对吧？所以我们必须积极反击那些造成这种情况的力量，相信我。我知道这听起来可能有点空泛抽象。不过我会给你一个非常具体的例子来帮助你理解“转换”的意义。当然，还有很多其他例子，我在书中也有提到。
In France, in 2018, they had a big crisis of what they called Le Berna, which I don't think I need to translate. The French government. The French government. They were. The French government under pressure from LeBiennians, they would never have done it without pressure from LeBiennians. Set up a government inquiry to figure out well, what the hell's going on? Why is everyone so burned out all the time? They're working 26 hours a week. How can you not be?
在2018年的法国，他们经历了一场被称为“Le Berna”的重大危机，我想这个词不需要翻译。法国政府在来自LeBiennians的压力下，不可能在没有这些压力的情况下采取行动，他们成立了一个政府调查小组，以弄清究竟发生了什么事。为啥每个人总是感到如此疲惫不堪？他们每周仅工作26小时，这又怎么会不感到倦怠呢？
Well, they discovered one of the key factors is that 35% of French workers, but they could never, when they were awake, stop checking their phone or their email, because their boss could message them at any time of the day or night if they didn't answer, they'd be in trouble. So, I mean, you think about that. I remember when we were kids, Jordan, the only people who were on call were the president and doctors. And even doctors weren't on call all the time.
他们发现其中一个关键因素是，35%的法国工人即使在清醒时也无法停止查看手机或电子邮件，因为他们的老板随时都可能发消息给他们，无论是白天还是晚上。如果他们不回复，就会有麻烦。我记得，当我们还是孩子的时候，乔丹，只有总统和医生才会随时待命。而即便是医生，也不是一直都处于待命状态。
So, we've gone from almost nobody being on call to half the economy nearly being in the US being on call. Right? And I can give those people all the lovely advice in the world about self-help, about, you know, by a case safe, go to sleep, perlet. They can't do it, right? It's like going to a homeless person going, you know what I'm making you feel better, buddy? Have you considered going into that lovely restaurant over there and buying a nice steak?
所以，我们从几乎没有人需要随叫随到，到美国差不多一半的经济活动都依赖于这种状态。对吧？我可以给这些人提供所有美好的建议，比如自我帮助、注意安全、早点睡觉等等，但他们根本无法做到。这就像对一个无家可归的人说：“你知道怎么让你感觉好一点吗？你有没有考虑去那家高档餐厅买块好牛排？”
It's like, well, fuck you, I can't do it, right? Which is why we need a collective solution to that problem predominantly. Now, so the French government introduced that collective solution and they introduced a new law and it gives every French worker what's called the right to disconnect. Just as two things, your work hours have to be laid out clearly in your contract, your work contract.
这就好像是，我根本做不来，对吧？这也是为什么我们需要一个集体解决方案来应对这个问题。于是，法国政府引入了一个集体解决方案，他们颁布了一项新法律，给予每位法国工人所谓的“断开联系权”。简单来说，就是你的工作时间必须在你的工作合同中明确规定。
And once those work hours are over, unless you're being paid over time, you don't have to look at your phone or check your email. So I went to Paris to interview people about this. And just before I was there, I went to kill the pet control company, was fined 70,000 euros, because they tried to get one of their workers to get his checkers email an hour after we left work.
一旦工作时间结束，除非你有加班费，否则你不需要查看手机或查收电子邮件。我去巴黎采访过一些人，了解这方面的情况。就在我到巴黎前不久，我得知一家宠物控制公司因为让一名员工在下班后一个小时查看电子邮件，被罚款7万欧元。
Now, you can see how that's a big collective change that frees people up to make a lot of the individual changes they want to make, right? And of course, I go through lots of other collective changes that we need to fight for as well, some of which are already being implemented in the US and others I saw all over the world, places like New Zealand. But the collect, often it will take a collective change to free people up to make the bigger individual changes they want to make.
现在，你可以看到，这是一个巨大的集体变革，它使人们能够去做许多他们想要的个人改变，对吗？当然，我还讨论了许多其他我们需要争取的集体变革，其中一些已经在美国实施，而其他的一些我在全球各地，比如新西兰，也有看到。但通常需要通过集体变革来解放人们，使他们能够实现他们想要进行的更大个人改变。
They're not oppositions, defense and offense. If we play good offense, we can play better defense. Hey, if you like what you're hearing and seeing, check out the Jordan Harbinger Show podcast feed. There's a lot more just like this. You can find the Jordan Harbinger Show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
进攻和防守并不是对立的。如果我们进攻好，防守也会更好。嘿，如果你喜欢你正在听和看的内容，可以去查看 Jordan Harbinger Show 播客节目。那里有更多类似的内容。你可以在 Apple 播客、Spotify 或者任何你使用的播客平台上找到 Jordan Harbinger Show。
Now, back to the show. What's scary about all this, going back to sort of the micro level of technology and interruption. If you spend so many years getting interrupted by technology, you start to interrupt yourself, even when there are no outside distractions. Which this was scary. So basically we program ourselves and or lose the ability to focus even when the external stimulus is removed.
现在，回到节目上。令人恐惧的是，回到技术和干扰的微观层面。如果你多年被技术打断，即使没有外部干扰时，你也会开始自我干扰。这确实很可怕。也就是说，我们实际上在给自己编程，甚至在外部刺激被移除时，也失去了专注的能力。
And I've felt this happening, right? I'll be focused on something and then I will have a vague thought of, I should do something else for a second because I'm just so used to switching all the time that I should just do something else right now, even though I'm reading. Even though there was no buzz, there was no ding, there's nothing, I'm not waiting for something important in my inbox. I just decide, well, I've read like two paragraphs. I should probably look at another thing or do something else. And that's what's really hard to break. That's insidious. That's not put your phone on Do Not Disturb. That's not put your phone in the little bin. You'll still go, oh, I should, maybe I'll look at my watch. What does my watch have on it? Oh, maybe I should reorganize my software. I mean, it's just like there's things that I will do just to be doing something else other than the thing I was doing a minute ago. Because I'm so used to switching that I almost can't stop.
我感受到了这种情况，对吧？我会专注于某件事情，但很快就会有个模糊的念头——我应该去做点别的，因为我习惯了不停地切换，就觉得即使是在阅读时也应该换个事情做。即使没有手机振动或提示音，也没有什么重要邮件在等我。我只是读了两段，就觉得该看看别的东西或者做点别的事情。这种习惯真的很难打破。这种行为是很隐蔽的，不是简单地把手机调成“请勿打扰”模式或放到小盒子里就能解决的。我还是会想，要不看看我的手表上有什么？还是说应该重新整理一下我的软件？我总是忍不住做点别的事情，而不是继续刚才在做的事情，因为我已经太习惯于这种切换，以至于几乎停不下来。
Yeah, Professor Gloria Mark has done really, who's at UC Irvine has done really interesting research on this. If you're interrupted enough, you learn to interrupt yourself. But, you know, I really got an insight onto this when I started working on style and focus. I basically had two stories in my head about why I was struggling to pay attention. One was, you know, your week. Why aren't you strong enough? What's wrong with you? I've very negative voice in my head about myself. And the second story I had was, well, someone invented the smartphone and that screwed me over. I later learned these are really oversimplified stories. In fact, what's happening to us is more complex and nuanced in some of the ways we've been talking about.
是的，格洛丽亚·马克教授在加州大学尔湾分校对这个问题进行了非常有趣的研究。如果你频繁被打扰，你会学会自己打断自己。但是，当我开始研究风格和专注的时候，我真正体会到了这一点。我脑子里有两个关于我为什么难以集中注意力的故事。一个是，你很软弱，为什么不够坚强？你有什么问题？我心里对自己有非常消极的想法。另一个故事是，有人发明了智能手机，这让我受到了影响。后来我了解到，这些故事其实是过于简化的。事实上，我们所经历的事情要比我们之前讨论的更加复杂和细致。
But at the time, I was like, well, if the problem is I'm weak and the someone invented the smartphone, then the solution is obvious. Be strong and resist the smartphone. So at that time, I had, I was in the lucky position that there was a big Hollywood movie being made out of one of my books. So I had loads of money. And I thought, fuck it, I'm just gonna, nothing is more precious to me than my ability to think. I'm getting out of here. So I booked a little room in a beach house in a place called Province Town in Cape Cod. And I went there for three months with no access to the internet. I had no laptop that could get online and no smartphone, right?
当时，我想，如果问题是我太弱了，而手机就是别人发明的，那么解决方案就很明显了。就是要坚强，抵制使用手机。那时我很幸运，我的一本书被拍成了一部好莱坞大片，所以我赚了很多钱。我想，没有什么比我的思考能力更珍贵了，我得走出去。于是，我在科德角的普罗温斯敦找到一个海边小屋的小房间，预订了三个月，期间没有上网条件。我没带能上网的笔记本电脑，也没有智能手机。
And I went there and it's like, have you ever been to Province Town, Jordan, do you know? No, no. It's Province Town is, people really don't know it. It's a kind of, it's at the tip of Cape Cod. Its slogan is just the tip, which I've always liked. It's a sort of gay resort town where, to give you a sense of Province Town, more than one person there makes a full-time living by dressing as Ursula, the villain from the Little Mermaid and singing songs about Kanalinga is right, so that's what it is. Wow, that's, Province Town. More than one person. Yeah, it is a crowded niche, but okay. And I hate each other as well. Of course. But the other Ursula is a fucking imposter.
我去了那个地方，你有没有听说过省镇，Jordan？你知道吗？没有，没有。省镇其实很多人都不知道，它位于科德角的最顶端。我一直很喜欢它的口号：“只是个尖端”。它是个类似于同性恋度假胜地的地方。要形容一下省镇的话，这里有不止一个人的全职工作是打扮成《小美人鱼》里的反派乌苏拉，然后唱跟卡那琳加有关的歌。所以，这就是省镇。哇，真是省镇。不止一个人。是个竞争激烈的领域，但也行。而且他们互相讨厌。当然。因为另一个乌苏拉是个冒牌货。
But so it was a really fascinating place to go and I learned loads of things in Province Town, but one was exactly what you say would, you know, after an initial haze of relief, I really felt that interrupting myself, that the stimulus was gone, but I was interrupting myself, right? I remember reading the Charles Dickens and I was David Copperfield and be like, okay, come on, come on, I've got it. He's an orphan, get on with it, Dickens, right? Like, but what was fascinating was, and obviously I talk about more practical ways we can do this because the solution is not for us all the during the Armeche and Retrieve technology, but you know, I remember before I went thinking, you know, maybe I'm struggling to focus because I'm nearly foresee, right?
这确实是个很有趣的地方，我在普罗文斯敦学到了很多东西，其中之一就是你所说的那种感觉。在最初的宽慰过后，我发现自己其实是在打断自己，虽然刺激源已经消失，但我仍然在分心。我记得读查尔斯·狄更斯的时候，拿着《大卫·科波菲尔》心里想着，好吧好吧，我知道了，他是个孤儿，快点继续讲下去吧，狄更斯! 有意思的是，虽然我还会讲一些更实际的解决办法，但显然我们的解决方案不是放弃使用科技。然而，我记得去之前，我一直在想，可能是因为我快要40岁了，才导致我在集中注意力上感到困难。
Maybe it's just I'm getting older. My attention in Province Town went back to being as good as it had been when I was 17, right? I was stunned by how much my attention came back. Once that force of distraction and actually made lots of other changes in Province Town, that I laid to, the other 11 factors that I learned about in the book, but you know, it was so amazing. It was like a feeling of becoming competent again. It was such a moving experience. But I remember the last day, the last day I was in Province Town, going, there's a lighthouse at the edge of town. I'm going to this lighthouse and looking back over Province and I hadn't left for the whole summer, barely been in a moving vehicle.
也许只是因为我变老了。在普罗温斯敦，我的注意力恢复到了17岁时的水平，对吧？我惊讶于我的注意力竟然能恢复这么多。一旦这种分心的力量减弱，我在普罗温斯敦还做出了许多其他改变，这让我想到了书中学到的其他11个因素。但你知道，这真的太神奇了，那种感觉就像重新变得有能力一样。真是一次感人的经历。但我记得最后一天，我在普罗温斯敦的最后一天，去了小镇边缘的一个灯塔。我走向灯塔，回望整个普罗温斯敦，整个夏天我几乎没有离开这里，几乎没有坐过车。
And thinking, God, why would I ever go back to, how I lived, right? This is amazing. And the next day I got the ferry back to Boston and I got my friend, Charlene, had my laptop and phone. And I'm getting them back and I'm seeing really kind of alien and weird. And then within two months, I was 80% back to where I've been. Oh, wow. I was like, right, you just reset right back into distraction mode. I wasn't going back to being exactly as bad as I'd been. But because I still had these simplistic stories, I hadn't figured out what was really going on.
我心里在想，天啊，我怎么可能再回到以前那种生活方式？这感觉太棒了。第二天，我乘渡轮回到波士顿，我的朋友Charlene把我的笔记本电脑和手机还给我。当我重新接触这些东西时，感觉它们真的有点陌生和奇怪。两个月后，我80%地回到了以前的状态。哇哦，我感觉自己一下子又恢复到了那种被分散注意力的状态。虽然没有完全回到过去那么糟糕，但因为我仍然有这些简单化的想法，我没有真正弄清楚问题的根本所在。
And I remember I went into the Dr. Williams in Moscow, he mentioned he lives in Moscow because his wife works for the World Health Organization. And I'm hoping to say to me, well, the mistake you've made, Johann, is it's like thinking the solution to air pollution is for you personally to wear a gas mask, right? I'm not a gas mask if I lived in Beijing, I'd wear a gas mask. But gas masks aren't the solution to air pollution. The solution to air pollution is to deal with air pollution at the source, right?
我记得我去莫斯科的Williams医生那里，他提到他住在莫斯科是因为他的妻子在世界卫生组织工作。我希望他说的是，"约翰，你犯的错误就像认为解决空气污染的方法是你个人戴防毒面具一样。" 如果我住在北京，我可能会戴防毒面具。但防毒面具不是解决空气污染的方法。解决空气污染的方法是直接从源头处理污染问题，对吗？
And in the same way, so we've got to actually deal with the sources of these problems, not just the individual symptoms in ourselves. And really so much of the rest of the journey for the book was about figuring out, well, what does that mean in practice and really exploring it and finding out in practical ways what it was and going to places that had actually begun to deal with the problem at the source. It's interesting that science, in some of your research, found that the internet itself is not necessarily to blame. Our lack of focus has been happening for generations.
同样的，我们必须真正解决问题的根源，而不仅仅是关注自身的个别症状。接下来的这段时间里，本书的旅程在于弄清楚在实践中这意味着什么，深入探索并以实际的方式找出答案，并去到那些已经开始从根源上解决问题的地方。有趣的是，你的研究发现，互联网本身并不一定是问题的根源。我们的注意力不集中已经发生了好几代。
Tell me about that because that surprised me. I figured for sure this is a social media slash email phenomenon full stop. And that's not really the case. So some aspects of the internet have hugely accelerated this. But one of the interesting things is that the trend actually goes back further, which helps us to understand some of the deeper factors that are going on in this, lots of deep factors that are going on. Like I said, tech is one of the 12 factors. And it's only some aspects of our tech and we can fix the aspects of our tech.
请告诉我这方面的情况，因为这让我感到惊讶。我原以为这一定是一个仅限于社交媒体和电子邮件的现象。实际上并不是这样。网络的某些方面确实大大加速了这一趋势，但有趣的是，这一趋势实际上可以追溯得更远，这有助于我们理解其中更深层次的因素。正如我所说，科技只不过是其中的十二个因素之一。而且只有科技的某些方面影响了这个现象，我们可以改善这些方面。
You know, Dr. Williams, so I'm quoting a lot in this interview because he's so great. Said, you know, the acts existed for 1.4 million years before anyone said, guys, should we put a handle on this thing? The entire internet is existed for less than 10,000 days, right? We can fix this stuff. But you're absolutely right. If we think about some of the deeper causes, so one of the people who really helped me to understand this was an amazing man named Professor Sooner-Layman, who's at the Technical University in Copenhagen in Denmark.
你知道吗，威廉姆斯博士，是的，我在这次采访中引用了很多他的观点，因为他真是太了不起了。他说，斧头存在了140万年，才有人想到，“大家，我们是不是应该给这东西装个把手？”而整个互联网才存在不到一万天，对吧？我们有能力解决这些问题。但你说得非常对，如果我们思考一些更深层次的原因，有一个非常出色的人帮助我理解这些问题，他就是位于丹麦哥本哈根技术大学的苏纳·莱曼教授。
And he did the first study that proved that collective attention really is shrinking. And he came to it actually quite a personal reason that he wanted to understand this. He was feeling really guilty because he had two sons that we really loved, little boys. And they would come and jump on his bed every morning, the way kids do. And absolutely instinctively, he reached not for them, but for his phone to look at his phone first. He really had a comfortable with it. That breaks my heart, actually. I got little kids and I just can't imagine trading them for email, especially at the same time.
他进行了首个研究，证明了人们的集体注意力确实在缩短。他其实有一个很个人的原因想要理解这个问题。他感到非常内疚，因为他有两个非常爱的儿子，小男孩。他们每个早晨都会像孩子们常做的那样跳到他的床上。然而，他本能地不是先回应他们，而是先拿起手机看。这让他感到很不安。这让我心碎，我也有小孩，实在无法想象会用看邮件来替代和孩子相处的时间，尤其是同时发生的时候。
Exactly. And so he was really uncomfortable with it. And he's thinking, what's going on here? Because, you know, there are all sorts of times when people think things are getting worse and they're actually not, right? You mentioned Stephen Pincos, done great work, showing a lot of the trends, for example, the world has become much less violent over the last 100 years. And there's very good evidence for that. So, sooner, Professor Layman thought, well, maybe this is like that.
没错。因此，他对此感到非常不安。他想，到底发生了什么事？因为你知道，有很多时候人们认为情况变得更糟，但其实并没有，对吧？你提到了Stephen Pincos，他做了很多出色的工作，展示了很多趋势。比如，过去100年来，世界已经变得不那么暴力了，而且有很好的证据支持这一点。所以，莱曼教授很快就想，或许这也是这样的情况。
Maybe we think it's getting worse, but it's actually getting better. So they developed this really interesting, him, and he was working as part of a big team of scientists. They did a really interesting whole body of research, looking at, well, is our collective attention shrinking? And at first, they looked at, they should have a very simple analysis of Twitter. So in Twitter, there are trending hashtags, but people who don't know that means that's where lots of people are talking about one subject.
也许我们认为情况在变糟，但实际上可能在变好。所以他们进行了一项非常有趣的研究，这项研究由一位科学家和他的大型团队合作完成。他们进行了全面的研究，考察我们的集体注意力是否正在缩减。起初，他们简单地分析了推特。在推特上，有热门话题标签，这意味着许多人正在讨论同一个主题。
So I don't know, just in Beiber fell into a hole now. Beiber in a hole would trend on, better with that, keep it in the head. But Beiber in a hole would trend on Twitter, right? So they looked at, I'll try to remember the years, I want to get it accurate. I think it was between 2013 and 2019, I think, the exact years are in, so basically in 2013, pretty sure this is right, in 2013, on average, when a topic trended, it would trend for I think 19 hours.
所以，我不知道，现在就假设比伯掉进了一个坑里。"比伯掉进坑里"这个话题一定会在推特上流行，对吧？他们查看了，我尽量记得这些年份，我想要准确一些。我想是在2013到2019年之间，我觉得具体年份是这样的，基本上在2013年时，我记得是对的，当一个话题流行时，它平均会持续大约19个小时。
And by the time it got to 2019, when a topic would trend, it would trend for only 12 hours, right? There was a really big diminution in how long we paid attention to any one specific thing that came along. But OK, thought, well, maybe that's just a phenomenon of Twitter, right? Maybe, you know, there could be something odd going on with Twitter as a media. So they did an analysis of loads of things online, Reddit, Google searches, like a huge range of websites. And they discovered the graph was exactly the same. Collective attention to any one topic was shrinking everywhere. The only exception was Wikipedia, which was interesting, it was one website, it was an exception. So it seemed like something was happening, you know, as the internet was taking more and more lives, that we were focusing less and less, but collectively.
到了2019年，当一个话题开始流行时，它只会流行大约12小时，对吗？我们对任何新出现的具体事物的关注时间大大减少。不过，好吧，也许这只是Twitter上的一种现象，对吧？也许，Twitter作为一种媒体可能有些特殊。所以，他们对很多网上的平台进行了分析，比如Reddit、Google搜索等等。结果发现图表几乎一模一样。对于任何一个话题的集体关注度在各个地方都在缩短。唯一的例外是维基百科，这很有趣，因为这是一个例外的网站。似乎随着互联网占据我们生活的越来越多，我们全体对事物的关注度却在减少。
But this is when they did the really interesting bit, which goes to answering your question to your dim. Then they had this idea. So on Google Books, so Google Books have scanned whatever it is, tens of millions of books. And you can search them online. And they developed an algorithm, the technical term for it is detecting engrams that could detect, in effect, Twitter hashtags in the past. So obviously, every year, new phrases emerge in English language to describe something new and then go away again. So I think about, I don't know, the Harlem Renaissance. No deal Brexit, no one had ever said the words no deal Brexit before 2016. No one will ever say them again, except historians in a few years, it was just a thing that cropped up and then went away, right? It was catastrophic results for my country.
但是，这就是他们进行了真正有趣的部分，也就是回答你愚蠢问题的时候。然后，他们有了这个想法。谷歌图书（Google Books）扫描了数千万本书籍，你可以在网上搜索它们。他们开发了一种算法，技术术语是检测n-gram（n元词组），这种算法可以有效地检测过去的“推特标签”。显然，每年英语中都会出现一些新的短语，用来描述新的事物，然后又会消失。我想到，比如哈莱姆文艺复兴时期。英国脱欧时的不达成协议脱欧（No Deal Brexit）这个词，2016年之前从来没有人说过，几年后除了历史学家也不会再有人提起，它就是一时出现然后消失的东西，对我的国家来说结果是灾难性的。
We'll talk about that another time. The, so this algorithm was able to detect how frequently, effectively, new topics, new trending hashtags developed in the past. And so they analyzed books from the 1880s to the present. And what was really weird is, with each decade, whenever a new topic emerged, fewer and fewer people focused on it for less and less time. So weirdly, the entire graph looks like the graph of Twitter from 2013 to 2019. Right now, it was sharp over Twitter because the internet has accelerated this. But something deeper has been going on for quite a long time, which we have to think about, obviously, then a lot of what I did in the book is then explore that.
我们下次再谈这个问题。那么，这个算法能够有效地检测过去新话题和新趋势标签出现的频率。所以，他们分析了从1880年代到现在的书籍。真正奇怪的是，每过一个十年，当一个新话题出现时，关注它的人越来越少，而且关注的时间也越来越短。因此，整个图表看起来就像2013到2019年的Twitter趋势图。虽然因为互联网的加速，这种现象在Twitter上表现得更为明显，但背后其实有更深层次的东西已经存在很长时间，这是我们需要考虑的问题。我在书中做了很多工作，去探索这一点。
So let's think about a very simple one. Sleep, right? Sleep is essential for our ability to focus and pay attention. I interviewed many of the leading experts on sleep in the world, keen to talk about this more, but if they think about it in relation to this, we sleep 20% less than people did a century ago. Children sleep 85 minutes less than they did a century ago. Oh wow. Now we know, if you sleep less, it profoundly damages your attention. In fact, if you stay awake for 19 hours, which doesn't seem like that long to me, your attention suffers as much as if you've got legally drunk, staggering, finding, right? Wow. And 40% of us are sleeping less than 70 hours, sorry, less than seven hours a night. So a lot of us are chronically sleep deprived. This profoundly harms your ability to focus and pay attention.
所以，我们来考虑一个非常简单的问题。睡眠，对吧？睡眠对于我们的专注力和注意力是至关重要的。我采访了许多世界上的睡眠专家，很想更多地探讨这个问题。他们指出，相比一个世纪前，我们的睡眠时间减少了20%。孩子们比一个世纪前少睡了85分钟。哇哦。我们知道，睡眠不足会严重损害我们的注意力。事实上，如果你保持清醒19个小时，这对注意力的影响就如同你法定醉酒，东倒西歪，寻找不着北一样。哇。并且，有40%的人每晚睡眠时间不足7小时。因此，很多人长期处于睡眠不足的状态。这严重影响了我们的专注力和注意力。
So there's lots of kind of longer term trends that help us to understand this profoundly declining collective attention, or there's lots of others as well that we can talk about. Yeah, Matthew Walker was on the show quite a while ago. Yeah, Matthew Walker was on the show as episode one, two, six, one, 26, and he talked about tired driving, being worse or as bad as drunk driving, teenagers having terrible grades in school. And I remember very clearly myself, I got a study period during the first two periods of school, my junior year, and you didn't have to show up because the teachers were really cool. They were like, you can study at home. I don't care if you study here. So I would sleep in.
有许多长期趋势可以帮助我们理解这种集体注意力明显下降的情况，也有很多其他的趋势我们可以讨论。是的，Matthew Walker 曾经很早就上过这个节目。Matthew Walker 曾在节目第126集上谈到过疲劳驾驶比酒驾更糟或一样糟，还有青少年的学习成绩糟糕。我很清楚地记得，我在高中的第一和第二节课期间有一个自习时间，老师们特别好，他们说可以在家自习，不一定要来学校。所以我就会多睡一会。
And my grades went through the roof because I was finally getting more than five or six hours of sleep on school nights because I didn't, you know, I do homework till 11, but instead of waking up at six to go back to school, I would sleep until like eight or eight 30 and go back to school. So adults, we know that adults get drowsy. We've all been there. Kids get hyper as all parents know. And it's really not pretty. Most kids are as rested. I think you said, is active duty soldiers or parents with newborns, which is just tragic.
我的成绩大幅提升，因为我终于可以在上学晚上睡超过五六个小时。以前我总是做到晚上11点才完成作业，但现在不用早上6点就起床去上学，可以睡到8点或8点半再去学校。成年人，我们都知道会感到困倦，我们都经历过。孩子们则像所有家长知道的那样会变得特别亢奋，这真的不好看。大多数孩子的休息程度，大概就和现役士兵或有新生儿的父母差不多，这真是让人遗憾。
Well, if you think about it, it was so fascinating because lots of scientists help me to understand why this is so important. And one of them was an amazing woman called Professor Roxane Prishard, who I interviewed at the University of Minneapolis, where she's a professor of psychology and she's made all sorts of breakthroughs on the understanding of sleep science. But she explained to me, the whole time you're awake, your brain is generating something called metabolic waste, which she calls brain cell poop, right? The whole time you're awake, just building up in your brain is waste. When you go to sleep, a watery fluid washes through your brain and your cerebral spinal fluid channels open up. And that waste is carried out of your brain down into your liver and eventually out of your body. If you don't sleep properly, if you don't get at least seven hours a night, your brain doesn't get time to clean itself.
好吧，如果你仔细想想，这确实很吸引人，因为许多科学家帮助我理解了为什么这很重要。其中一位是一位了不起的女士，叫做Roxane Prishard教授。我在明尼阿波利斯大学采访了她，她是那里的心理学教授，并且在睡眠科学的理解方面有多项突破。她向我解释说，当你清醒时，大脑会产生一种叫做代谢废物的东西，她称之为“大脑细胞的便便”。无论你清醒多久，这些废物都会在大脑中积累。当你入睡时，一种水状液体通过大脑流动，你的脑脊液通道会打开。这些废物会被冲出大脑，进入肝脏，最终排出体外。如果你不好好睡觉，尤其是每晚至少要睡七小时，你的大脑就没有时间清理自己。
So your brain is literally clogged up. You know that feeling when you have a slip problem, you feel almost like hungover? That's not a metaphor, right? Your brain is actually clogged up, right? Like when you've been drunk. If that builds up over weeks and years, that has an immediate short-term harm to your attention that's profound. If it builds up over weeks and years, it has a catastrophic effect on your attention. It's why people who sleep less are significantly more likely to develop dementia, for example. So this is a huge thing, you're absolutely right. The deprivation, I mean, what we, there's so many things we get wrong in education when it comes to attention.
所以你的大脑真的就像堵塞了一样。你知道那种感觉吗？就像你在解决一个难题时感到的，那种类似宿醉的感觉？这不是比喻，你的大脑实际上就是被堵住了，就像喝醉酒的时候一样。如果这种情况持续几周甚至几年，会对你的注意力产生短期的严重影响。如果积累数周或数年，对注意力的破坏效果会非常严重。这就是为什么睡眠不足的人更容易患上痴呆症。所以，这个问题非常重要，你说得非常对。睡眠不足，还有教育中我们在培养注意力方面的诸多错误，是很大的问题。
We need to just redesign so many aspects of the school system. One of them is the time we expect kids to be at school. Teenagers need to sleep significantly more and their body clocks reset. So they want to go to bed later and they want to sleep longer. That isn't, teenagers being lazy or some flaw in them. That is the biological imperative of their bodies. To make teenagers wake up at six o'clock in the morning, I mean, if you wanted to ruin their ability to pay attention, you would specifically do that, right? It's madness and all sorts of school authorities where they move the start time to later saw massive improvements in attention and exam performance.
我们需要重新设计学校系统的许多方面，其中之一是我们期望孩子上学的时间。青少年需要显著更多的睡眠，他们的生物钟也会发生变化。因此，他们想晚些睡觉，起得更晚。这不是因为青少年懒惰或他们有什么缺陷，而是他们身体的生理需求。如果让青少年早上六点钟起床，实际上是在削弱他们专注能力，这不是很疯狂吗？许多学校当局推迟上学时间后，注意力和考试成绩都得到了显著提升。
So this is bonkers that we do. This is also cruel to the teachers, by the way. Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of that was set up in the United States anyway because of the needs of farms and factories. I mean, that was really what it was. And then of course, it persisted because your principal, who's 75 years old, was like, well, I like being done at 230 and I'm awake. So screw everyone else, right? And the administrators didn't really have any urgency. And even when I was younger, it was like, you're lazy because you want to get up late. And it's like, well, you went to bed at nine. I had homework until midnight. And I worked out at the gym and then went to football practice. Like, you know, what are you talking about?
所以我们这种做法真是疯狂。这对老师来说也很残酷。嗯，我是说，美国的很多这种安排一开始就是为了满足农场和工厂的需要。这就是事情的真相。当然，这样的安排一直持续下来，因为你那75岁的校长觉得校务在下午2:30结束挺好，他自己也挺精神。所以其他人就管不了那么多，对吧？而管理人员也没有紧迫感。即使我年轻的时候，人们也会说你想晚起是因为你懒。但他们不知道的是，我是晚上九点才上床，而我之前还要做作业做到半夜。我还要去健身房锻炼，然后去参加橄榄球训练。你知道的，我在说什么吧？
So it's a profound lack of understanding. This is a rant that I'm on because now that I have kids, I'm like, I remember when I was a kid, I was like, I will not do this to my kids because this is literally torture. Getting up this early, being chronically underslept, being cranky all the time, it's like no wonder teenagers aren't in a bad mood. They're bodies awash in hormones and also they haven't slept in eight years, adequately. You know, there's this doctor Charles Seisle, who's the leading exporter sleeper, I have a medical school, arguably the leading exporter sleep in the world. He did this experiment that really haunted me.
所以这是一种极度缺乏理解的表现。我现在有了孩子，所以有些感慨。当我是孩子的时候，我就想过，我绝不会对我的孩子这样做，因为这简直就是折磨。每天起得这么早，长期睡眠不足，整天情绪烦躁，难怪青少年总是心情不好。他们的身体处于荷尔蒙变化中，而他们八年来都没有得到充足的睡眠。有一位医生，Charles Seisle，他是世界上睡眠研究的顶尖专家之一。他做了一个实验，让我印象深刻。
So they put together two forms of technology. They had obviously PET scans, brain scans. So scanning the brains of people and at the same time, they were tracking their eyes to see what they were looking at. So they got in tired people. And they weren't even that tired. They weren't like dog tired. And they wired them up. And these were people who were looking around them and it appeared to be as awake as you and I do now. Yet it turned out whole parts of their brain had gone to sleep. This is called local sweeps. It's local to one part of the brain. So again, when we say people are half asleep, that's not a metaphor, right? A lot of people are literally half asleep.
于是，他们结合了两种技术。显然，他们使用了PET扫描和脑部扫描。这意味着他们在扫描人们大脑的同时，还跟踪他们的眼睛运动以观察他们在看什么。他们找来了感到疲惫的人进行实验。这些人其实也并不特别累，并没有筋疲力尽的那种程度。他们给这些人接上设备监测。这些人看起来四处张望，看起来就像你我现在一样清醒。然而，结果显示他们大脑的整个部分已经进入了睡眠状态。这种现象被称为“局部睡眠”，它只发生在大脑的某一部分。因此，当我们说一个人“半睡半醒”时，这并不是比喻，许多人真的可以说是处于“半睡”状态。
This is why Drowsy Driving is one of the fastest rising causes of death. So there's an extraordinary amount of problems that are flowing from this. And yeah, the restoration of sleep is so important because they talk about practical ways that we can do that. They involve some big social changes as well. But yeah, there's a lot we need to understand about this and that I learned from these experts. I think one of the scariest things that I'd read was when you're chronically under-slept, your body thinks there's an emergency, which totally makes sense, right?
这就是为什么困倦驾车成为导致死亡人数快速上升的原因之一。因此，由此产生了大量的问题。恢复睡眠非常重要，因为我们在讨论一些实用的方法来实现这一点，其中还涉及到一些重大的社会变革。不过，是的，我们需要更多地了解这一点，并从这些专家那里学习。我觉得我读到的最可怕的一点是，当你长期睡眠不足时，你的身体会以为发生了紧急情况，这完全说得通，对吧？
So your blood pressure goes up, you crave more sugar, fast food, which also sort of checks out when you look at teenagers in their diet and things like that. There's other psychological and physiological changes that are bad for you, especially over an extended period of time on a developing brain. And these are short-term trade-offs, like you mentioned, which kill us faster, or at least degrade our brain in our capacity for cognitive abilities. They had a great faster. And then of course, then you start mixing in caffeine and red bull, which doesn't give you more energy.
所以你的血压会上升，你会更想吃糖和快餐。当你观察青少年的饮食习惯时，这种情况似乎是合理的。此外，还有其他对你不利的心理和生理变化，特别是在大脑发育阶段的长期影响。这些都是短期的妥协，就像你提到的，它们可能会加速我们的衰老，或者至少损害我们大脑的认知能力。而且这种退化会更快。再加上，如果你再摄入咖啡因和红牛，它实际上并不会给你带来更多的能量。
It just turns off the switch that tells you that you are tired, which is even worse, right? It's kind of like, I'm not bleeding. I feel great. It's like, well, you are. You just can't see it anymore. You can't feel it anymore because you took a numbing agent. It doesn't mean you're not bleeding out, right? It's the same sort of concept, except we don't think about it because when we're tired, you can't see that the consequences are fueled them right away. So it's especially terrifying to see this because all of those things are going up and it seems like this problem is indeed getting worse.
它只是关闭了告诉你疲劳的信号，这样做甚至更加糟糕，不是吗？就好比你在说：“我没有流血，我感觉很好。” 实际上，你的确在流血，只是因为你用了麻醉剂，你看不到它，也感觉不到它。这并不意味着你没有失血，对吧？这是同样的道理，只是我们没有去想过，因为疲劳的后果不是立刻显现出来的。这就更加可怕，因为所有的迹象都在增加，而这个问题似乎真的在恶化。
It is getting worse, but we can solve it. It's funny. I'll get to the solution in a second, but it's funny. As you were saying that I remember, there's this biography I once read of Elvis. And it said that in the last year of his life, he had a doctor who would come and inject caffeine directly into his veins every morning to come out. And I said this to my partner and he's like, oh, that's terrible. I was like, terrible. Where's that doctor? I want to hear him.
情况越来越糟，但我们可以解决它。这很有趣。我马上会谈到解决办法，但这真的很有趣。当你说到这点时，我想起曾经读过的一本关于猫王的传记。书中提到，在他生命的最后一年，有一个医生每天早上会给他注射咖啡因，让他清醒过来。我把这件事告诉我的伴侣，他说，这太糟糕了。我却说，糟糕？那个医生在哪儿？我想见见他。
And he was like, yeah, yeah, what happened to Elvis next? Yeah, yeah. Good point. He's the guy that killed Elvis, by the way. But the, I'd still happily take the risk. But not really. So we've got to deal with the deep structural reasons why this is happening. And there's lots of these structural reasons, obviously the last third of the book is really about how we deal with them. But let's look at, you know, if you think about sleep, right? You can see how these causes interact.
翻译如下：
他就说，是的，是的，接下来埃尔维斯发生了什么？对，是的。说得好。顺便提一下，他就是那个杀了埃尔维斯的人。不过，我还是很乐意冒这个险，不过其实并不是真的那样。因此，我们必须解决这件事发生的深层结构性原因。而这些结构性原因有很多，显然，这本书的最后三分之一主要讨论的就是如何处理它们。但是，让我们来看一下，比如说睡眠问题，你就可以看到这些原因是如何互相影响的。
If you've had a night when you haven't slept, that next day is much more likely to be a day when you mind less least scroll through social media. Oh, yeah. In the same way, a night where you stay up. So Dr. Seisley, who I mentioned, the leading expert on sleep, he said to me, human beings are as sensitive to light as algae, right? All of our dional rhythms are set by our exposure to light. And he discovered in particular, an element of human reaction to light that is really important for understanding one of the reasons why we're sleeping so less well at the moment.
如果你有一个晚上没睡好，第二天你更容易不由自主地在社交媒体上刷屏。同样地，如果你熬夜，情况也是如此。我提到的睡眠专家塞斯利博士告诉我，人类对光的敏感程度和藻类一样。我们所有的昼夜节律都是由光照来调节的。他特别发现了一个人类对光反应的重要因素，这有助于理解为什么我们现在的睡眠质量变差了。
So imagine you go on a camping trip and it starts to get dark. And you haven't put up your tent yet. As it gets dark, your body will experience a surge of energy. It's called the second surge because you also get a surge of energy in the morning. Second surge of energy, a sudden surge. And you can see an evolution why that would be really good for us. If you were away from the tribe or away from the cave, it starts to get dark. Your body gives you a huge wave of energy to get you back to the tribe, get you back to the cave, right?
想象一下，你去露营，天色渐暗，而你还没搭好帐篷。随着天变黑，你的身体会突然感到一阵能量的涌现。这被称为第二波能量，因为你在早晨也会感受到一次能量的增长。第二波能量是一种突然的涌现。从进化的角度看，这对我们是非常有利的。假如你远离部落或山洞，当天色渐暗时，你的身体会给你一大波能量，以帮助你返回部落或山洞，对吧？
Before it gets completely dark and you'd be fucked. Great. We evolved to have this for a very good reason. When it starts to get dark, we get a surge of energy. But that works very differently when we control the light. So let's say you go to bed and like 90% of us do, you're looking at your phone before you go to bed, right? You're watching TV or whatever it is on your phone. And then you turn off your phone and you're lying in your bed.
在天完全黑下来之前，你会觉得很糟糕。太好了。我们进化出这种特性是有充分理由的。当天色开始变暗时，我们会感到一阵能量提升。但当我们掌控光线时，这种机制效果却截然不同。比如说，你上床睡觉，像我们90%的人一样，睡前都在看手机，对吧？你可能在看电视节目或者其它手机上的内容。然后你关掉手机，躺在床上。
But what your body gets the signal is, shit, it just got dark. Give Jordan a surge of energy to get him back to the cave, right? Your body doesn't know you're already in the cave, you're already in your bed, right? So you're ready to go to sleep. You turn off your phone, but the sudden darkness gives you a huge surge of energy. And that means that you sleep very poorly. It's harder to get to sleep. The next day, you're like, oh, I'm not gonna do that again, but the same pattern repeats again and again. So there's things both at an individual and a collective level we've got to do to deal with this.
当你的身体接收到信号时，它会误以为：“天黑了，该给 Jordan 提供一股能量让他回到洞穴。” 你的身体不知道你已经在洞里，实际上你已经躺在床上，准备睡觉了。你关掉手机，但突然的黑暗让你一下子充满了能量。这导致你睡得很差，入睡变得更加困难。第二天，你会想：“我再也不这样做了。” 但同样的模式又一次重复出现。因此，我们在个人和集体层面都需要采取一些措施来解决这个问题。
I'll give you an example of an individual thing I mentioned the case shape. So what I do, not this one, because I'm in my office here, but I want it home. So I've got my friend to drill a hole in the side of it so that I can still charge my phone. What I do is I'm back two hours before I'm gonna go to sleep. I put my phone in there, I put it on charge, and then I shut it, I lock it away in the case safe, so that it'll reopen like six hours from then. So then I go to bed. And if I'm lying there and I'm like, oh, shit, there was that one email I needed to send. Too fucking late, I can't do it, right? Did it wait till the morning?
我来给你一个我提到过的个人案例，例如手机壳的形状。这样做的原因在于，我不是在办公室这里用这个方法，而是在家里用。我让我的朋友在手机壳的侧面钻了一个洞，这样我就可以继续给手机充电。具体的做法是：我在准备睡觉前两小时把手机放进去，进行充电，然后关上并锁好壳子，让它六小时后再自动打开。这样我就去睡觉了。如果我躺在床上突然想到“哦，不好，我有个邮件需要发送”，这时也太晚了，我无法做到，只能等到第二天早上。
So that hugely helped me, but of course we need to deal with the wider reasons why people are sleeping so much less. So we mentioned the right to disconnect earlier if you're awake, staying up because you're bossing up messaging, that's one example. But there's lots more. Think about the fact that we're using this technology that is designed to interrupt us, right? So we can fix that. We can have all the technology we currently have, but have it not designed to interrupt us.
这对我帮助很大，但当然，我们需要处理人们为什么睡得越来越少的更深层原因。我们之前提到过“断开联系”的权利，如果你老是因为工作消息而熬夜，这就是一个例子。但还有很多其他原因。想想我们使用的这些技术，它们本身就是为了打断我们而设计的，对吧？因此，我们可以改善这种情况。我们可以保留所有现有的技术，但让它们不再被设计成打扰我们的工具。
And there was a historical analogy that was explained to me by Jiren Lanier, who I think you might have had on your show, fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful human being, a kind of Silicon Valley technologist and dissident, as funny Jiren used to, he used to advise a lot of movies, like Minority Report, that was set in dystopian futures about what kind of technology they might have in the future. And he told me he stopped doing that because he would design some horrific thing that was like a nightmare. And then loads of technologists were good designers, and Silicon Valley go, why, that's really fucking cool. How do we design that? Who's like, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean.
这段话的大意是：Jiren Lanier 向我讲述了一个历史类比。Jiren Lanier 是一位非常了不起的人，他是硅谷的科技专家和异见者。我想你可能在你的节目中采访过他。他很幽默，过去常常为很多电影做顾问，比如设定在未来反乌托邦社会的《少数派报告》，这些电影经常涉及未来可能出现的新技术。他告诉我，他不再做这样的工作了，因为他曾经设计出一些可怕的、宛如噩梦般的技术，然后很多优秀的设计师和硅谷的科技人员却对这些设计表示非常感兴趣，想知道如何实现它们。他说：“不是这样的，不是我本意。”
But Jiren gave me an example from history, which I learned a lot more about, that I think can really help us to think about this. So you'll remember Jordan, anyone listening, I guess is younger than 35, or remember this, when we were kids, the standard form of gasoline in the United States was ledded gasoline. Yeah. And a bit before our time, people used to paint their homes the whole time with leaded paint. And it had been known going right back to the 1920s, an amazing scientist called Dr. Alice Hamilton, warned, I mean, one of the most pressient people in history said, leaded gasoline is gonna be a disaster because exposure to lead is really bad for people's brains.
吉仁给我举了一个历史上的例子，我从中学到了很多，我认为这个例子可以帮助我们思考这个问题。大家可能还记得，特别是比35岁小的人，小时候在美国，汽油的标准形式是含铅汽油。在我们的时代之前，人们还经常用含铅油漆来粉刷房屋。早在1920年代，一位了不起的科学家，艾莉丝·汉密尔顿博士就警告过，作为历史上最有远见的人之一，她说含铅汽油会带来灾难，因为铅的暴露对人类大脑非常有害。
If it's in the gasoline, it'll be in the air, everyone will breathe it in. Don't do it. There was actually a much safer form of gasoline that didn't have lead in it, but the lead industry basically mansplained her out the room, shut her up, ignored her, and there was exposure to lead. And the evidence shows very clearly that exposure to lead is really bad for your brain and particularly bad, the children's ability to focus and pay attention. And by the 1970s, this was just undeniable.
如果汽油中含有铅，它就会进入空气中，所有人都会吸入它。不要这样做。其实当时有一种更安全的无铅汽油，但铅行业的男性基本上用傲慢的态度让她闭嘴、忽视她，结果人们接触到了铅。而证据非常清楚地表明，接触铅对大脑非常有害，尤其是对儿童的专注力和注意力有很大影响。到了1970年代，这已经是不容否认的事实了。
So what happened is a group of ordinary moms, who called themselves housewives back then, banded together and said, why the fuck are we allowing this? Why are we allowing a for-profit industry to screw up our children's brains? This is crazy. And it's important to understand what those moms didn't demand. They didn't say, so let's ban all paint. They didn't say so, let's ban all gasoline. They said, let's ban the specific component in the petrol and in the paint that is harming our children's ability to focus and pay attention.
事情是这样的：一群普通的妈妈，她们当时自称家庭主妇，团结在一起并质疑：我们为什么要允许这样的事情发生？为什么要让一个营利性行业损害我们孩子的大脑？这太疯狂了。重要的是要理解这些妈妈们没有要求的是什么。她们没有说，我们要禁止所有的油漆。她们也没有说，我们要禁用所有的汽油。她们说的是，我们要禁止汽油和油漆中那些损害孩子专注力和注意力的特定成分。
Really important to remember that because in the same way, we don't want to get rid of all technology, we like technology, just like they like petrol and paint. We want to get rid of the components that are designed to harm our attention. Okay, so these moms, they fought like hell for their children. They fought and fought to ban-led and gasoline. And it took them years and they were ridiculed. And then they won. What's that thing Gandhi said? First they knew it, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Right? Yeah.
重要的是要记住这一点，就像我们不想彻底抛弃所有科技一样，我们是喜欢科技的，就像他们喜欢汽油和油漆一样。我们只是想去除那些被设计来伤害我们注意力的成分。 好吧，那些妈妈们为了孩子拼命斗争。她们一次又一次地斗争，要求禁止铅和汽油。她们花了好几年时间，并且还被嘲笑。但最终，她们赢了。甘地不是说过吗？开始他们无视你，然后嘲笑你，再后来对抗你，最后你就赢了。对吧？ 嗯。
They won. As a result, the CDC, the Center for Disease Control calculated that the average American child is three to five IQ points higher than they would have been, had we not banned lead in gasoline, right? Now to me, this is a really important model for almost all of the 12 factors that are harming our attention to focus. Obviously we're focusing on a handful of them here, which is good because it'll mean people have to buy my book. But what they did, they identified a pathogen in the environment that's harming our attention. They banned together collectively, they got that pathogen out of the environment, right? That is a really interesting model for us as we think about these other 12 factors.
他们赢了。因此，美国疾控中心（CDC，疾病控制中心）计算得出，美国儿童的平均智商比如果我们没有禁止使用含铅汽油时高3到5分。对我来说，这为几乎所有损害我们注意力和专注力的12个因素提供了一个非常重要的范例。显然，我们在这里重点关注的是其中的一小部分，这很好，因为这样人们就需要购买我的书了。 他们做的是，识别出环境中损害注意力的病原体，然后共同努力把这种病原体从环境中移除。我们在思考其他12个因素时，这就是一个非常有趣的模式。
So think about what I was saying before about tech, right? It's not the technology, and this was something that took me a long time to get my head around. I had to interview a lot of people who designed key aspects of the world in which we live to really understand it. It's not tech per se that is harming your ability to focus on pay attention. It's the underlying business model around which these products are currently based. At the moment, the longer you scroll the more money they make, but it doesn't have to work that way.
所以回想一下我之前说过的关于科技的事情，对吧？问题不在于技术本身，这一点我花了很长时间才弄明白。我采访了很多设计我们生活中重要方面的人，才真正理解这一点。其实并不是科技本身在损害你专注的能力，而是这些产品背后的商业模式。目前的情况是，你浏览的时间越长，他们赚的钱就越多，但不一定非得这样运作。
Right, it could be, it could be the opposite. Well, that would be, like we could design tech instead of to capture as much of our attention as possible, we could design it to do the inverse, right? We don't do that because of surveillance capitalism. I'm sure you've seen that book, right? Companies make money when we're distracted and sucked in, and they learn more about us, they use that data to market to us and to others. So it's, yeah, it's by design. It's not just you, it's the phone. It's not just the internet. It's the way the internet has been designed.
当然，也可能完全相反。我们可以设计技术，目的是减少对我们注意力的占用，而不是尽可能多地吸引我们的注意力。我们之所以不那样做，是因为监视资本主义。你可能看过那本书吧？公司赚钱靠的是让我们分心并沉迷，从而更多地了解我们，然后用这些数据对我们和其他人进行营销。所以，这一切都是有设计的。问题不在于你自己，而在于手机；不仅仅是互联网本身，而是互联网被设计的方式。
And it's not about being pro-tech or anti-tech, because I know some people are thinking about that. It's like what technology are you using? And for what purpose is, and that's what I talked about with Tristan Harris in that episode specifically, there'll be a trailer for it at the end of this one. Things like negativity bias, how the algorithms do this deliberately, and it's a problem, right? It's a bigger problem than we know.
这并不是在讨论支持技术还是反对技术的问题，因为我知道有些人会这样想。关键在于你使用什么技术以及出于什么目的。我在那集节目中特别和特里斯坦·哈里斯讨论了这一点，这集的末尾会有一个预告。像是负面偏见的问题，算法是如何故意引导这些的，这真的是一个问题，对吧？这个问题比我们想象的要严重。
Now we see like the Facebook whistleblowers where they don't even care about literal neo-Nazis and the destruction of democracy. So it's like, well, why are they gonna care about distraction if they don't care about that? So, but now then we get into like the anti-big tech rant. What, what, what, what, just like the lead industry was never gonna go, you know what guys? I think we should stop poisoning kids' brains. Let's stop doing it. We've made enough money enough. They were never gonna do that.
现在我们看到像Facebook的吹哨人这样的事件，他们甚至对真正的新纳粹主义者和民主的破坏毫不关心。所以，如果他们连这些都不关心，又怎么会在意分心的事情呢？但是现在，我们就进入了反大科技公司的讨论。就像铅工业永远不会说：“你知道吗，各位？我觉得我们应该停止毒害孩子的大脑。我们赚的钱已经够多了，停止吧。”他们是永远不会这样做的。
They had to be made to do it by this movement of ordinary moms. In the same way, the tech industry is not gonna solve this problem. Even though by the way, many of the people who work in the tech industry is obviously Tristan is one of the great heroes of our time in my view, and is a friend of mine. You know, even though many of the people who work in the tech industry are profoundly uncomfortable at what they're doing, they're part of this bigger machinery, right? There's plenty of people who work at ExxonMobil who are uncomfortable about global warming. The machinery has to be what changes, not just changing individual minds within the company.
他们必须在普通妈妈们的推动下去做这件事。同样地，科技行业也不能单独解决这个问题。顺便说一下，尽管有许多科技行业从业者对自己正在做的事情感到极度不安，但没有人会否认他们是这个行业庞大机器的一部分。就像在埃克森美孚工作的许多人对于全球变暖感到不安一样。真正需要改变的是整个机械运作系统，而不仅仅是公司内部的一些个人想法的改变。
So, one of the people who really helped me to understand this is a guy called Aza Raskin, who designed a key aspect of how many websites work. His dad, Jeff Raskin, invented the Apple Mac for Steve Jobs. And Aza said to me, look, if you wanna see what the equivalent of the lead in the lead paint is, it's very simple: surveillance capitalism. This is a term that comes from Professor Shoshana Zuboff at Harvard.
所以，一个真正帮助我理解这一点的人是叫做阿扎·拉斯金（Aza Raskin）的家伙，他设计了许多网站运作的重要方面。他的父亲，杰夫·拉斯金（Jeff Raskin），为史蒂夫·乔布斯发明了苹果Mac。阿扎告诉我说，如果你想知道相当于铅漆中的铅的东西是什么，这其实很简单：就是监控资本主义。这个术语来自哈佛大学的教授绍莎娜·祖博夫（Shoshana Zuboff）。
So that business model, where the longer you scroll, the more money they make, because they're tracking you to gather information about you, to sell it to the highest bidder to sell your attention. He said, look, the solution is simple. Just say that a business model based on secretly surveilling you in order to find out the weaknesses in your attention and hacking them, it's not ethical, it's immoral, it's like lead in lead paint, it's banned, we don't tolerate it.
这种商业模式是这样的：你滚动得越久，他们赚的钱就越多，因为他们在追踪你以收集你的信息，然后把这些信息卖给出价最高的人，以便出售你的注意力。他说，解决方案很简单：就是要表明这种基于秘密监视你的商业模式，以找出你注意力的弱点并加以利用，是不道德的，是不道义的，就像含铅颜料一样，是被禁的，我们不能容忍这种行为。
And I remember when Aza said this to me, many other people said this to me, so the convo, I remember saying to him, right, but, okay, let's imagine we do this, right? Let's imagine tomorrow we banned surveillance capitalism. And I opened Facebook. Would it just say, sorry guys, we've gone fishing? He said, of course not. What would happen is that they would have to move to a different business model.
我记得，当时Aza对我说这番话，而其他许多人也对我说过类似的话，所以我还记得我当时对他说，好吧，假设我们真的这么做了是吧？假设明天我们禁止了监控式资本主义。而当我打开Facebook时，它会不会只是显示“抱歉，各位，我们不干了”？他说，当然不会。实际上，他们会不得不转向另一种商业模式。
And almost everyone listening will have experience of those two alternative business models. So one alternative business model is subscription, right? We all know how HBO, Netflix work; you pay that amount, you get access. Or think about the sewage pipes. Before we had sewage pipes, we had shit in the streets, we got cholera, we got terribly sick. So we all paid to build the sewage together and we all own the sewage together and we maintain the sewage together. Now it might be that like we want to own the sewage pipes together to prevent cholera, that we want to own the information pipes together because we're getting the equivalent of cholera for our minds, for our attention, for our politics. But, Christian, whichever of these two alternative models you adopt, or maybe there's a third model that hasn't been thought of yet.
几乎每个在听的人都对这两种替代商业模式有所了解。其中一种替代商业模式是订阅模式，对吧？我们都知道 HBO、Netflix 是如何运作的：你付费，就能获得访问权限。再想想以前的污水管道。在我们有污水管道之前，街道上到处是垃圾，我们得霍乱，生病得厉害。于是我们都出钱一起建了污水管道，一起共有、维护这些管道。现在可能就像我们希望一起拥有污水管道以防止霍乱一样，我们也可能希望一起拥有信息管道，因为我们的思想、注意力和政治正在遭受类似“心灵霍乱”的影响。但是，不管你采用这两种替代模式中的哪一种，或者可能还有第三种未被想到的模式，克里斯蒂安，这些模式都可以考虑。
And it's worth thinking about that. Whichever of these alternative business models you adopt, the key thing to understand is all the incentives change. At the moment, all the incentives are to find the best ways to hack your attention and keep you scrolling as much as possible and interrupt you as much as possible. Because you're not the customer. Keep remember that, you're not the customer. Right, you're the product, nothing customer. In these different models, subscription or some form of public ownership, independent of government, it'd be very important to make sure it was independent of government like the BBC in Britain. All the incentives change. Suddenly they're not like, how do we hack Jordan in order to keep him scrolling?
值得思考的是，无论你选择哪种替代商业模式，关键在于所有的激励机制都会发生变化。目前，所有的激励都在于找到最佳的方法来吸引你的注意力，让你尽可能多地滚动，并尽可能多地打扰你。因为你不是客户。记住这一点，你不是客户。对，实际上你是产品，不是客户。在这些不同的模式中，例如订阅制或某种形式的公共所有权，且独立于政府，这一点非常重要，要确保它独立于政府，就像英国的BBC一样。所有的激励机制都会改变。突然之间，他们不再想着，如何找方法吸引乔丹一直滚动浏览。
Suddenly they're like, oh, Jordan's our customer now. What does Jordan want? It turns out Jordan feels good when he meets up with his friends and looks into their eyes. Right? Great, let's design our app. Not to keep him doom scrolling, but to maximize people meeting up offline. And it turns out Jordan likes it, but he can pay attention. Let's design our app. Not to hack his attention, but to heal his attention. Now the technology exists to do that. My friends in Silicon Valley, people you know in Silicon Valley, they could do that tomorrow, right? Tristan and Azer could design that Facebook in a week, right? But it will only happen at the incentives of that. And that requires a profound shift in consciousness.
突然，他们意识到，哦，乔丹现在是我们的客户了。乔丹想要什么呢？原来乔丹在与朋友见面，互相对视时，会感觉很愉快。对吧？太好了，我们来设计一个应用程序。不是让他不停地刷屏，而是最大化促进人们线下见面。结果发现乔丹很喜欢这个，但他能集中注意。我们要设计一个应用程序，不是去劫持他的注意力，而是去修复他的注意力。现在已经有技术可以做到这一点。硅谷的朋友们，你在硅谷认识的人，他们明天就能做到，对吧？特里斯坦和阿泽可以在一周内设计出这样的脸书，对吧？但这只有在激励机制到位时才会发生。这需要一种深刻的意识转变。
We need to stop blaming ourselves. And we need to stop only asking for tiny tweaks or there are many tiny tweaks that we're fighting for. We are not medieval peasants begging at the courts of King Zuckerberg and King Musk for a few little crumbs of attention from their table. We are the free citizens of democracies and we own our own minds. And we can take them back. And it's really important we get do this fast. I'll give you a little bit of attention movement, equivalent to the feminist movement or the movement for equality for gay people. Because at the moment we're in a race. On the one side you've got all of these 12 factors that are invading our attention and focus.
我们需要停止自责，也需要停止只要求微不足道的小改变，或者停止为了许多微小的调整而斗争。我们不是在国王扎克伯格和国王马斯克的宫廷里乞求一点点注意的中世纪农民。我们是民主国家的自由公民，我们掌握自己的思想，并可以夺回控制权。而且，我们必须迅速做到这一点。我会给你一个相当于女性主义运动或争取同性恋平等运动的小小的注意力运动。因为目前我们正处于一场竞赛中。一方面，各种因素正在侵蚀我们的注意力和专注力。
And many of them on the current jet tree are going to become more powerful. Paul Gray, one of the biggest investors in Silicon Valley, said, we are on course, the world is on course to be more addictive in the next 40 years than it was in the last 40. Think about how much more addictive TikTok is. Wow. To your kids than Facebook, right? Now imagine the next crack-like iteration of TikTok in the metaverse. Okay, that's one side of the race. And this is true by the way, many of the factors. The food we eat is profoundly harming our ability to focus and pay attention. That's becoming more addictive. There's loads of these factors. On the other side, there's got to be a movement of all of us saying no.
许多人在当前的科技发展中将会变得更加强大。硅谷最大投资者之一保罗·格雷表示，我们和世界正在迈向比过去40年更加成瘾的未来。想想看，与Facebook相比，TikTok对孩子们的吸引力有多大。现在，想象一下元宇宙中新一代类似快感的TikTok应用。这是发展的其中一方面。而事实上，很多因素确实如此。我们吃的食物严重损害了我们的专注力和注意力，同时也变得越来越让人上瘾。还有很多这样的因素。另一方面，我们必须团结起来说“不”。
No, you don't get to do this to us. No, that is not a good life. No, we don't want a world where we can only focus for 65 seconds or three minutes. No, we choose a life where we can pay attention, where we can read books where our kids can play outside. We choose focus, right? I go through all sorts of places that have begun that fight, right from France to New Zealand. I've been to them. These are not science fiction creations. I've been to Long Island, where there's an amazing program that's restoring children's attention. I've been to places that are doing this. We can absolutely achieve it, but you don't get what you don't fight for, right? And we've got to decide, we value focus, and we want to fight for it.
不，你不能这样对我们。不，这不是一个好的生活方式。不，我们不想要一个只能专注于65秒或三分钟的世界。不，我们选择一种可以专心生活的方式，可以读书，可以让我们的孩子在外面玩的生活。我们选择专注，对吗？我走访了很多已经开始这种斗争的地方，从法国到新西兰。我去过这些地方。这些不是科幻小说中的情节。我去过长岛，那里的一个项目正在帮助恢复孩子们的注意力。我去过很多这样做的地方。我们绝对可以实现这一目标，但如果不努力争取，就不会拥有。我们必须决定，我们重视专注，并愿意为之而战。
I absolutely believe we can get this back. But if we just don't act, these forces invading our attention will continue to act and they will become more and more sophisticated. So we've got to act in our own defense and our children's defense pretty urgently, I would say. Johan, thank you very much. Fascinating conversation. I like, it sounds like we didn't end on a high note, but we kind of did, because we really can take control and take the reins. And like you said, say no. And start with one controlling what we use and what we take in, but also paying attention to what we allow in our society.
我完全相信我们可以找回我们的注意力。但是如果我们不采取行动，这些侵占我们注意力的因素将继续产生影响，并且会变得越来越复杂。因此，我认为我们必须紧急行动起来，为了我们自己和孩子的未来而努力。约翰，非常感谢您，这次谈话很有启发性。虽然听起来似乎没有一个振奋的结尾，但实际上是有的，因为我们真的能够掌控局面，掌握主动权。正如您所说，我们可以学会说不。我们应该从控制我们使用和接收的内容开始，同时关注我们允许哪些事物在我们的社会中存在。
I know a lot of people listening will be thinking, yeah, that sounds right, but how are we going to achieve any progress on this, right? These are such big fights. And I think that sometimes, but when I think that, I particularly think about a friend of mine, a lot of your listeners will have heard of him. His name's Andrew Sullivan, brilliant journalist. And Andrew was diagnosed as HIV positive in 1999 at the height of the age crisis. When as far as anyone knew, there was no hope in sight, they didn't know protease inhibitors were just on the horizon.
我知道很多听众可能会想：“对啊，这听起来有道理，但我们怎么才能在这方面取得进展呢？”这些问题似乎太庞大了。我有时也这样想，但这时我特别会想到我一个朋友，很多听众可能都听说过他。他叫安德鲁·沙利文，是位出色的记者。安德鲁在1999年被诊断出感染了艾滋病毒，那时正是艾滋疫情的高峰期。大家认为毫无希望，因为当时还不知道蛋白酶抑制剂即将问世。
So Andrew was like, okay, I'm about to die. I've maybe got a couple of years to live. His best friend Patrick had just died of AIDS. So he quit his job as editor of the New Republic, and he went to Provincetown to die. And he thought, well, before I die, I'm going to do one last thing. I'm going to write a book about a crazy utopian idea that nobody has ever written a book advocating before, right? And he thought, well, I won't live to see this idea put into practice, obviously. No one alive today will live to see it, but maybe someone somewhere down the line will find this book and pick up this idea.
安德鲁心想，好吧，我快要死了，我可能还有几年可以活。他最好的朋友帕特里克刚刚因艾滋病去世。所以他辞去了《新共和》杂志编辑的工作，搬到普罗温斯敦准备面对生命的终点。他想，在死之前，我要做一件最后的事情。我打算写一本关于一个疯狂的乌托邦理想的书，这是从来没有人写书来倡导过的。他认为，自己显然活不到看到这个想法被付诸实践的那一天。今天在世上的人们都不可能看到，但也许未来的某个人会发现这本书，并接受这个想法。
The idea that Andrew wrote the first book to whoever I would vote for was gay marriage. Wow. When I get depressed, I try to imagine going back in time to Provincetown in 1994 and saying to Andrew, I can't do it, you're not going to believe me, but 26 years from now, A, you'll be alive. That would have blown his mind. B, you'll be married to a man. That would have stunned him. C, I'll be with you when the Supreme Court of the United States quotes this book you're writing when it makes it mandatory for every state in the United States to introduce gay marriage.
安德鲁写的第一本书与我会投票给谁的想法有关，那就是同性婚姻。哇。当我感到沮丧时，我试着想象自己回到1994年的普罗文斯敦，对安德鲁说，我无法做到，你可能不会相信我，但26年后，A，你还活着。这会令他震惊。B，你会和一个男人结婚。这会让他大吃一惊。C，当美国最高法院引用你正在写的这本书，规定所有美国州必须引入同性婚姻时，我会与你在一起。
And the next day, you'll be invited to a white house and lit up in the colors of the rainbow flag to have dinner with the president to celebrate what you and so many others people have achieved. Oh, and by the way, that president, he's going to be black. Every aspect of that would have sounded like the most ludicrous science fiction we had. 2,000 years of gay people being imprisoned, persecuted, burned. And in a very short space of time, I don't want to underestimate how much further we've got to go, we've all seen what's been happening in Florida and other places, but a staggering level of progress, right?
第二天，你将被邀请到白宫，与总统共进晚餐，庆祝你和其他许多人所取得的成就。那天晚上，白宫将被彩虹旗的颜色照亮。哦，顺便说一句，那位总统将是一位黑人。过去，这一切听起来都像是最荒谬的科幻故事。几千年来，同志们被监禁、迫害、焚烧。而在很短的时间内，我们取得了惊人的进步。当然，我不会低估我们仍需努力的地方，比如我们在佛罗里达和其他地方看到的情况，但这确实是一个令人震惊的进步，对吧？
It would be like me saying to you, so Jordan, 26 years from now, a trans president is going to invite us to the Oval Office to smoke crack with her. Watch the trans TikTok, right? I don't know if that's progress though. No, not really. I mean, the trans president, yes, not the crack or the batting. But the incredible things become possible when enough people band together and fight for them in a spirit of love and compassion, right? And you know, I'm passionately in favor of equality for gay people, of course, but that affects a very small part of the population.
这就像我对你说，“乔丹，26年后，一位跨性别总统会邀请我们到椭圆形办公室一起抽毒品。”听说过跨性别者的TikTok吧？不过我不确定这是否真的是进步。其实，不算真正的进步。跨性别总统是，但毒品和不道德的行为不是。不过，当足够多的人团结在一起，以爱与同情的精神奋斗时，许多不可思议的事情都会变得可能。你知道，我热衷于支持同性恋者的平等，当然，但这只影响到一小部分人。
This affects all of us, right? There is a potential coalition of everyone except Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, right? Right. And the only is in Mike's system and the other people who own Instagram, right? This is a huge potential coalition. Everyone can feel this happening to them, right? We have a coalition that stretches from the far right to the far left and everyone in between. We all know this is important. Everyone feels sick to their stomach when they see that their kids can't focus and they feel their own attention beginning to crumble.
这影响到了我们所有人，对吗？除了马克·扎克伯格和埃隆·马斯克，大家都有可能形成一个联盟，对吧？对。而且这个系统只存在于迈克那里和那些拥有Instagram的人，是吧？这可是一个庞大的潜在联盟。每个人都能感受到这种情况发生在自己身上，对吗？我们形成了一个从极右到极左以及所有中间立场人士的联盟。我们都知道这很重要。当大家看到自己的孩子无法集中注意力，自己也感到注意力开始崩溃时，都会感到心里很不舒服。
We can deal with this, right? Absolutely optimistic that we can deal with this. I've seen the solutions, right? They're not rocket science. On all of the 12 factors, I went to places somewhere in the world that was building the solution. So I want to really leave people with a sense of hope and optimism. At a time I've profound darkness, remember that we are all the beneficiaries of people who fought, people who came before us, who fought to make our lives better. We've got to do that now for ourselves and for the people who come after us.
我们能解决这个问题，对吧？我对此非常乐观，相信我们能解决。我看过解决方案，并不是什么高深的东西。在所有的12个因素上，我去过世界上一些正在构建解决方案的地方。所以，我真的希望能给大家带来希望和乐观的信息。在这段极为黑暗的时期，记住我们都是前人奋斗努力的受益者，他们曾为改善我们的生活而努力。我们现在必须为自己以及后代这么做。
Johan, thank you, that is inspiring. And you're good at delivering that, man. That's got to be a part of your keynote, eh? All right, and I'm also meant to say all my publishers tase me that, if they give me this whole fucking ridiculous thing, I meant to say which I can't do, but anyone who wants to find out what Oprah, Hillary Clinton and lots of other people have said about the book, if they want to find out where to buy it, the audio book, the e-book or the physical book, if they go to stolumfocusbook.com, they can also see, and sounds always so zerotic, because I'm hardly on social media.
约翰，谢谢你，真是鼓舞人心。而且你表达得很棒，这应该成为你主旨演讲的一部分，对吧？好吧，我还需要说明一下，我那些出版商总是对我施压，他们给我一整套非常荒谬的事情，我应该说的是，如果有人想了解奥普拉、希拉里·克林顿和许多其他人对这本书的看法，想知道在哪里可以购买这本书、音频书、电子书或实体书，只要访问stolumfocusbook.com就可以了。因为我几乎不怎么用社交媒体，所以说出来总感觉有点不自在。
I want to find out what Mark Zuckerberg has to say about it. Yeah. Today, it's funny, I got in trouble at the end of an interview a while back, because I'm hardly on social media now, but an interviewer, he was a 50-year-old guy, it's his relative, said to me at the end of an interview a while back, he said, so what's your Twitter, and I said it, and he said, what's your Facebook, and I said it, and he said, what's your Instagram, and I said it, and then he said, what's your Snapchat, and I said, I am a 43 year old man, right?
我想了解马克·扎克伯格对此的看法。是的。有趣的是，前段时间我在一个采访快结束时遇到了麻烦。因为我现在几乎不怎么使用社交媒体了，而那位采访我的人是一个50多岁的家伙，他是个熟人，他在采访结束时问我，“你的Twitter是什么？”我回答了，他又问，“你的Facebook是什么？”我也回答了。接着他问，“你的Instagram是什么？”我继续回答了。最后他问，“你的Snapchat是什么？”我回答说，“我是一个43岁的成年人啊。”
The only 43 year old men on Snapchat are definitely pedophiles, right? What else are they there? And he did laugh, and I have this very bad habit when someone doesn't laugh at a joke leading into it. So I said, you know that I showed to catch a predator? I said, the next season of to catch a predator, should literally just be, they go up to adult men in the street and say, what is your Snapchat handle?
Snapchat 上只有 43 岁的男人都是恋童癖，对吧？不然他们在那里干什么呢？当他笑的时候，我有一个很不好的习惯，就是如果有人在我讲笑话时不笑，我就会继续讲下去。所以我说，你知道那个《抓捕捕食者》节目吗？我建议下一季的《抓捕捕食者》应该直接到街上去问成年男人：你的 Snapchat 用户名是什么？
And if they have one, fucking throw them in the van, right? I don't know, if they go to laugh at all, I later looked it up, he's a 50 year old man who's quite active on Snapchat. And I'm glad. I'm really glad, Jordan, that we got through this interview without me accidentally accusing you of being a pedophile. That's my new bar for all interviews. But I really enjoyed this. Thank you for getting gay.
如果他们有这样的情况，就把他们扔进车里，对吧？我不太确定，如果他们会笑的话。我后来查了一下，他是一个在Snapchat上非常活跃的50岁男人。我很高兴，真的很高兴，Jordan，我们这个采访能够顺利进行，没有让我不小心指责你是恋童癖者。这是我对所有采访的新标准。不过，我真的很享受这次采访。谢谢你的开放和坦诚。
This sounds like an ironic compliment, but I really appreciate you paying such attention to this subject and engaging with the book so deeply. And I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. Likewise, man, thank you so much. Hooray, and people should definitely listen to the interview with Tristan, because he's a fucking hero. Yep, and there'll be a trailer for it right after the show.
这听起来像是反讽的恭维，但我真的很感谢你对这个话题如此关注，并深入地阅读这本书。我非常喜欢这次对话。谢谢。同样的，我也非常感谢你。太好了，大家一定要听听和Tristan的采访，因为他真的是个了不起的英雄。没错，节目结束后会有这个采访的预告。
Hooray, but what could you want? Thanks for checking out this entire episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show. If you're interested in exploring this topic further, check out the Jordan Harbinger Show podcast feed. There we dive even deeper on this and many other topics. In the audio podcast, I also close open loops, cover things discussed off camera, off air, and give some parting lessons from our guest.
好啊，但你还想要什么呢？感谢你收听本集《乔丹·哈宾格秀》。如果你感兴趣，想更深入地探讨这个话题，欢迎浏览《乔丹·哈宾格秀》的播客。在那里，我们会更加深入地讨论这个和其他许多主题。在音频播客中，我还会解决未解的问题，讨论节目中未提到的内容，并从嘉宾那里分享一些最后的经验教训。
You can find the Jordan Harbinger Show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, any podcast app, or at JordanHarbinger.com. And also, if you found this episode useful, please share it with those you care about. Last but not least, like, comment, and subscribe.
你可以在 Apple 播客、Spotify、任何播客应用或 JordanHarbinger.com 找到 Jordan Harbinger Show。此外，如果你觉得这一集对你有帮助，请分享给你关心的人。最后，请点赞、评论和订阅。