'Chef Reactions' blew up on TikTok. But will TikTok blow up?
发布时间 2023-04-13 04:00:00 来源
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This is RecoGmedio, Peter Kafka, that is me. And there are two big stories in tech that we have not spent enough time on recently. One is the AI boom and we're going to fix that problem in the very, very near future. Stay tuned. And the other one is the TikTok boom and the possible end of the TikTok boom. And we're going to work on that one today. TikTok, as you know, is the dominant entertainment app in the US. It's also owned by a Chinese company and for the moment those two facts don't seem to be compatible. We've been hearing about a possible TikTok band since Donald Trump's last year at office. Those rumblings are getting loud again. I remain skeptical that we're going to see much moving on this in the end. Mostly because I don't see the political will to take away something that tens of millions of Americans really, really like.
这是RecoGmedio的Peter Kafka，也就是说，是我。现在，有两个重大科技新闻我们最近没有花足够的时间关注。一个是人工智能的爆发，我们将在非常近的未来解决这个问题。请继续关注。另一个是TikTok的兴起和可能的结束。我们今天将在这个问题上工作。如你所知，TikTok是美国最主要的娱乐应用。它也是一家中国公司的所有，而目前这两个事实似乎不太兼容。自唐纳德·特朗普去年在任期间以来，我们一直听说可能会禁止TikTok。这些传言再次变得喧嚣起来。我仍然怀疑我们最终会在这个问题上看到许多动作。主要是因为我没有看到政治意愿去剥夺数千万美国人真正喜欢的东西。
And by the way, something that politicians, including Democrats, have learned to embrace last year on this show. For instance, we had Nelt Thomas, the CTO Democratic National Committee. Tell us that she was advising candidates to use TikTok because that's where the voters were. So let's dive into TikTok from two different angles. First up, we've got a quintessential TikTok success story. Some of them have never made a TikTok until a year ago, and without really trying really at all, has become a full-fledged TikTok star in a way that has changed his life. And then we talk politics, practicalities of TikTok with Will Arremis at The Washington Post. Who's doing a really good job covering the nexus of policy and tech. And we also, by the way, talked to Will about a pretty astonishing AI story while we're at it. So it all gets knit together.
顺便说一下，去年这个节目上政治家们，包括民主党人，学会了接受某些事情。例如，我们有民主党全国委员会的首席技术官内尔特·托马斯告诉我们，她建议候选人使用TikTok，因为那里有选民。所以让我们从两个不同的角度来探讨TikTok。首先，我们有一个典型的TikTok成功故事。其中一些人在一年前甚至从未做过TikTok，但几乎没有努力就成为了一名完整的TikTok明星，这改变了他的生活。然后我们和《华盛顿邮报》的威尔·阿雷米斯谈论了TikTok的政治和实用性。他非常擅长报道政策和技术的交汇点。顺便说一下，我们还和威尔聊了一个相当惊人的AI故事。所以一切都紧密相连。
Okay, now it's here for me speaking with someone whose name I don't actually know. That's unique. Here we go. All right, this is a first for me. I've been podcasting for a really long time. I have never done a podcast with someone whose real name I don't know. So I don't know the best way to describe this person. Hi guy who calls himself Chef Reactions on TikTok. Hi Peter, how are you? I'm well. Thank you for joining me. I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. So just to get this out of the way, Chef, we're just called Chef, I guess, as a first name. Is a real life professional cook? Is that the right word? Professional Chef.
好的，现在我要和一个我实际上不认识名字的人交谈了。这很独特。我们开始吧。好的，这对我来说是第一次。我一直在播客上做了很长一段时间。我从来没有和一个我不知道真实姓名的人一起做过播客。所以我不知道怎么描述这个人。嗨，叫自己厨师反应的家伙，您好。嗨，Peter，您好吗？我很好。谢谢您加入我。我很久以前就期待和您谈话了。为了让事情顺利进行，厨师，我们可以称您为厨师，作为名字吗？您是一位真正的职业厨师吗？是用对的词吗？职业厨师。
Professional Chef, thank you. I was a cook. Now I'm a chef. Who has 2.3 million followers on TikTok, has, I guess, accidentally become a TikTok star. And for reasons he'll explain, does not want to use his real name, even though, again, millions of people see his face every day. Welcome to the show.
谢谢。我曾经是个厨师，现在成了一名专业的厨师。我在TikTok上有230万名粉丝，我猜这都是意外的，但是已经成为一位TikTok明星。由于某些原因，我不想使用真实姓名，尽管每天都有数百万的人看到我的脸。欢迎来到我的节目。
Thank you so much. Good to be here. This is a first for me too. First time ever doing a podcast interview. This is great.
非常感谢。很高兴来到这里。这对我来说也是第一次。第一次接受播客采访。非常棒。
This is you are in some ways the classic story of the person who wanders into a social network, not expecting to do anything there other than screw around and maybe turns it into a whole career. Am I summarizing that correctly?
这是关于一个人闲逛到社交网络上，原本只是想闲逛一下，却可能因此走上了一整个职业的典型故事。我的总结对吗？
I mean, in a nutshell, yeah. I first saw you, I think probably a couple years ago, you were doing reaction videos. Someone else was making terrible food generally. Sometimes good food, but often terrible. And then you would show up and basically make fun of it. And you've got a great sardonic wit and low-key sort of monotone that I really appreciate. Other people do as well. Not that many people were following you at the beginning. How did you get into this?
嗯，总之，我大概在几年前第一次看到你，当时你在做反应视频。别人通常做一些不好吃的食物，有时候也会有好吃的，但是更多的情况是很差劲。然后你就会出现，基本上取笑那些食物。你有很棒的冷嘲热讽和低调的单调感，我非常欣赏。其他人也一样。一开始没多少人关注你，你是怎么介入这个圈子的？
Well, like you said, I kind of fell into it, backed up into it, so to speak. I had a dishwasher that worked for me. She made a TikTok video one day and she said, hey, chef, come look at this. My TikTok video has 1.5 million views. And it was perhaps the dumbest thing I had ever seen in my entire life.
嗯，就像你所说的那样，我有点偶然地陷入了这个领域，可以说是反向进入的。有个洗碗工在我那里干活，有一天她拍了个TikTok视频，然后跑过来跟我说：“嘿，厨师，来看看这个。”我看了一下，这可能是我一生中见过的最愚蠢的东西。不过奇怪的是，这个视频有150万次浏览量。
There was nothing to it. And I said, well, if that can get 1.5 million views, then I can do something that gets 1.5 million views. So I created a TikTok account that same day. Chef reactions. The name was there. I had seen other people doing reaction videos. So I figured, you know, I'm a chef might as well react to cooking videos. So that's how it started within a week, maybe two weeks. I had my first viral video that hit about 1.5 million views.
这其实没什么难的。我想，如果那样的视频都能获得150万的浏览量，我也能做出一个获得150万浏览量的视频。于是，我当天就创建了一个TikTok账户，叫做“Chef Reactions”。这个名字我之前就见过别人用了。我想既然我是厨师，就来评析一些烹饪视频吧。就这样开始了。大概一两个星期内，我的第一个病毒视频就获得了约150万的浏览量。
So never wait what the video was. It was something to do with popcorn. Like initially I had been just seeing a lot of weird popcorn videos. Like what's wrong with just throwing a fucking oral reddened bocker in the microwave and calling it a day. Or even jiffy pop on the stove, dude. Like that happened. And then things just kind of steamrolled from there. Within a month, I think I was about at about 50,000 followers. Within two months, I had hit a million. Three months after that hit 2 million approaching 3 million currently.
所以永远不要等待视频是什么。它与爆米花有关。一开始我只是看了很多奇怪的爆米花视频。像直接把口红色的爆米花放进微波炉里就能解决了。或者在炉子上烤jiffy pop。像这种事情发生了。然后事情就开始滚雪球了。一个月内，我的粉丝数量已经达到了大约五万。两个月内，我就已经有了一百万的粉丝。三个月后，我达到了接近三百万的粉丝数量。
So like we're going to talk about several times. You had a day job and you still have a day job. It seems like it's a pretty difficult one. Yeah, I mean, it's not as glamorous as everybody makes it out to be. Everybody likes to watch the Food Network and think that being a chef is this romantic artistic expression. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes we're just trades people that happen to work as chefs.
所以我们要聊聊几次。你有一份日常工作，而且你现在还有这份工作。看起来这是一件相当困难的工作。是的，我的意思是，它不像每个人想象的那样光鲜亮丽。每个人都喜欢观看美食网络并认为成为一名厨师是一种浪漫的艺术表达。但有时候它并不是这样。有时候我们只是交易工人，恰好是厨师们工作的。
You don't want to tell me where you work. Can you describe the kind of place you're working at? Is people get a sense? Yeah, so I'm an executive chef at a private golf club. And we would do a seven day a week food operation. And then also catering to banquet sweatings, tournaments, things like that. So you're making a lot of food for a lot of people all many days a week. Not glamorous.
你不想告诉我你在哪里工作。你能描述一下你工作的地方是什么样子的吗？人们可以感受到吗？嗯，我是一家私人高尔夫俱乐部的行政厨师。我们每天都会进行为期七天的食品运营。并且还会承办宴会、锦标赛等活动。所以你每周都要为很多人准备很多食物。不是很奢华。
Like you said, you're not going to stock me in the Food Network. But it's kind of more representative of the food industry than what you see on TV. Did you have some intent like when you started this? Like I want to tell people what real food is like? I was just messing around. I had no intention whatsoever. So how long ago did you start? Was it two years ago? Just under a year actually. Okay, come back on a year. Yeah, amazing.
就像你说的一样，你不会把我放在Food Network里。但是，它比你在电视上看到的更能代表食品行业。你开始时有什么意图吗？比如我想告诉人们真正的食物是什么样的？其实我只是随便尝试了一下，没有任何意图。那你是什么时候开始的呢？是两年前吗？实际上是不到一年前。好的，再等一年。是的，真惊人。
And so within that year, at what point did it occur to you that this might be something beyond screwing around? That you might be able to make money doing this? I mean, I had a couple guys reach out to me early on that wanted to do merch because people were asking for some of my quotes on some merch. So I figured, you know what? Let's cash in.
在那一年中的什么时候，你意识到这可能不只是闲逛，还可以赚钱？有几个人早期联系我，想要制作一些商品，因为人们想要购买我一些语录的商品。所以我想，你知道吗？我们可以赚点钱。
Well, we're creating the t-shirts hats. T-shirts hats. Stuff like that. So the idea was to just make a quick buck off of it, thinking that nothing would ever come of it ever again. And I ended up selling about 30k. Worth a merch? I didn't make 30k off of it, but I sold 30k worth.
嗯，我们正在制作T恤帽子。 T恤帽子之类的东西。所以想法就是赚快钱，以为以后再也没什么事了。结果我卖了大约3万件。值得做成商品吗？我没有从中获得3万美元，但我卖出了价值3万美元的商品。
And so that was kind of when it clicked in that this could potentially be a business later on in life. And then people just started reaching out. And then I started really thinking that it could lead to something beyond what I'm currently doing. So how much time are you spending making tic-tocs? Or making tic-tocs and thinking about brands and the entire tic-toc part of your life? I mean, my tic-tocs, you've seen my tic-tocs, they're blind reactions every single time. It's the first time I've watched the video. I just talk about it, record it, post it. So that's a minute. Two minutes, three minutes, depending on how long the video takes. So maybe it's 10 to 15 minutes out of my day to actually record the content. And then keeping up with engagement periodically throughout the day. So not a ton of time currently.
于是我开始明白，这个可以在以后成为一个商业机会。然后人们开始联系我。我开始想到，这可能会超出我目前的工作范畴。你花多少时间制作好看的Tiktok视频呢？或者是制作视频和思考品牌，以及你Tiktok生活的整个部分？我的Tiktok视频，你看到了，每次都是盲目反应。这是我第一次看这个视频。我只是谈论它、录制它、发布它。所以这需要一到三分钟的时间，根据视频长度而定。所以现在每天需要花费10到15分钟的时间来录制内容，并定期维护用户互动。所以目前并不需要很多时间。
And so, but you have moved from selling hats and t-shirts to doing actual ads, right? You're doing either one with Hyundai. I think another one more recently. My first brand deal that I got was with Hyundai. And that came late, late 2022. And they reach out to you. And you're inbox basically. Yeah, they reached out to me. I'm a Hyundai driver myself. I don't think they knew that at the time.
那么，但是您已经不再只卖帽子和T恤了，而是开始做真正的广告了，是吗？您和现代汽车公司合作了，可能还有另外一个最近的品牌合作。我的第一个品牌合作是与现代汽车公司的合作，那是在2022年晚些时候。他们直接联系您，就在您的收件箱里。是的，他们联系了我。我自己也是现代汽车的车主，当时他们可能并不知道这个。
But they had been working with Amar Gishan, the chocolate wizard as I like to refer to him as on tic-toc. And they had the idea because I already react to his videos anyways. Why not do like a cross, cross promotion? Because they were paying him to make the chocolate car. Then have me talk about the chocolate car. Since then I've worked with 2B and Paramount Pictures as well.
他们曾与巧克力大师Amar Gishan合作，我喜欢在tic-toc上称他为巧克力魔法师。他们想到这个主意是因为我已经对他的视频做出了反应。为什么不做一种交叉促销呢？因为他们正在支付他制作巧克力汽车。然后让我谈论巧克力汽车。从那时起，我也与2B和派拉蒙影业合作过。
So you've done three ads. Give me a sense of how the money from those ads compares to what you make in your actual job. It's way better. It's way better. It's way, way better. I don't like to talk about specifics because it's kind of a kind of ghost to talk about that. But it's way, way, way better than what I mean.
所以你已经拍了三个广告了。请告诉我一下这些广告的收入和你实际工作的收入相比如何。收入好得多。非常棒。非常，非常棒。我不太喜欢谈具体数字，因为这样有点像鬼话。但收入高得多，你懂的。
So you've made more from those ads than you would a year of your day job that you have to do day to day. So the pretty obvious question is, can you stop working as an executive chef and become a full-time tic-toc and a brand guy? I just put in my two weeks notice on Monday.
那么你从那些广告中赚的钱比你一年做日常工作的收入还多。那么显然很多人会问，你能够停止作为一名行政主厨的工作，成为一个全职的TikTok达人和品牌代言人吗？我上周一已经提出了两周的辞职通知。
Holy shit! I didn't know that. I thought you were going to keep grinding. No, I mean at a certain point the juice doesn't become worth the squeeze. And if I can use the time that I spend working as a chef to kind of focus on growing the, I don't like to use the term brand, but that's what it is growing the brand of chef reactions. Then I might as well shitter get off the pot so to speak.
天啊！我不知道那件事情。我以为你会一直努力下去。不，我的意思是到了某个点，再努力也已经不值得了。如果我能利用作为厨师工作的时间，集中于推广“厨师反应”这个品牌（虽然我不喜欢用这个词），那么我就可能要下定决心，放弃其他的事情。
So how are you thinking about that? Do you think this is my new career or this is a thing that I can do for some amount of time? And then it's probably going to end and they'll go back to doing what I do. I mean, I have a skill set to fall back on in case it does all evaporate. I look at it in the sense that it could all disappear. So obviously strike while the iron's hot. But I think that it could lead to other things that could potentially give me some longevity. But you never know in this weird space of creators, right? One second, you're hot, one second, you're not. Every time I post a video, I think that's the last time anybody's going to laugh at something I say. So I approach that with everything that I do.
所以你怎么想这件事呢？你认为这会成为我的新职业还是只是一段短暂的经历？然后可能会结束回到我原本的工作上，但如果一切都消失了，我还有一套备用技能。我认为它可能会消失，所以趁机大力发展。但我认为这也可能会开启其他能让我有持久性发展的机会。但在这个创作者的奇怪领域里，你永远不会知道会怎样，你一会儿是热门，一会儿又不是了。每次我发布视频时，我都认为这是最后一次有人会笑我说的话。所以我对我所做的每件事都这样对待。
Do you have a model? Do you have people you're looking at going, oh, these people manage to go from accidental creator into full-time person? I mean, not. I'm not huge into the creator ecosystem to be totally honest with you. Like I just kind of stumbled upon it myself and it's been kind of eye-opening in the last year or so. But no, not really. I just kind of do my own thing and what happens happens. And if good things happen, great.
你有什么样的榜样吗？你有没有看到一些人并想去效仿他们，从偶然的创作者变成了全职人士？实话说，我对创作者生态系统不是特别热衷。我只是碰巧自己发现了它，而且在过去一年左右时间里，发现了一些令人惊讶的事情。但是，其实并没有什么榜样。我只是做自己喜欢的事情，发生了什么就发生了。如果好事发生了，那就太好了。
I think most people think. if they think about creators that are thinking about young people, they're often probably dismissively thinking about women dancing, you're a guy, you got some salt and pepper in your beard. Do you ever think about how unique it is to be sort of in your position and be successful on a platform like this? Every day. Yeah, like it. it's really mind-blowing. Again, I'm a professional chef. I've been doing it for 20 years. Toiling in mediocrity and obscurity, my entire life, you know, working barely above the poverty line. And now all of a sudden, I'm, you know, popular.
我觉得大多数人认为，如果他们考虑那些专注于年轻人的创作者，他们通常可能会轻视地想到女人跳舞，而你是个带着点胡渣的男人。你有没有想过在这个位置上并在这样一个平台上获得成功是多么独特？每天都在想。是啊，我喜欢它。这真的很让人惊讶。再说一遍，我是一名专业厨师。我已经做了20年了。我一直在平庸和默默无闻中劳累，你知道，勉强在贫困线上工作。现在突然间，我就变得受欢迎了。
Like my personal accounts, I don't think I ever, my life had more than like 152 under followers on any of my personal accounts. So it's weird. It's very weird and very surreal. That's the best. You wanted to be anonymous because you didn't want to interfere with your day job. Now you're not going to have that day job. Do you think it's. and again, it's a weird thing to be anonymous when millions of people are watching videos featuring your face front and center.
像我的个人账户一样，我从未在我的人生中拥有超过152个追随者，所以这很奇怪。非常奇怪和超现实。这是最好的。你想要匿名是因为你不想干扰你的日常工作。现在你不会有那份工作了。你认为这是...再次，当数百万人观看以您的面孔为中心的视频时，匿名是一件奇怪的事情。
Yeah. How is that anonymity? First of all, work so far. Do people recognize you? I've only been recognized ever in public once. And that was awesome. That's really wild to square like the popularity of TikTok period. Your popularity that no one's gone. I mean, you kind of look like a lot of people, I know. Truthfully. Yeah, I do. It could be a lot of guys in tech, frankly. But it's weird that no one else has said, hey, where do I know you from? Yeah, no, literally nobody. It's. I've created a niche. Like the thing about TikTok, it's very niche and internet content in general.
是啊。那匿名效果怎么样？首先，到目前为止还不错。有人认出你来了吗？我只在公共场合被认出过一次。那真是太棒了。这真的很奇怪，因为你在TikTok上很受欢迎，但没人认出你。实话实说，你看起来像我认识的很多人。说实话。是啊，有很多科技男孩看起来像我。但奇怪的是，没人说过：“嘿，我在哪里见过你？”是的，真的没人。我已经创造了一个利基市场。就TikTok而言，它非常具有利基性，网络内容一般也是如此。
I've learned that it's very niche. I've stumbled upon people who have like 15, 20 million YouTube followers. I've never fucking heard of them ever before in my life. So I mean, there's that positive aspect to it because I never wanted to be famous. I still don't necessarily want to be famous. What I want to do is carve out my niche, create my community, and make some money in the process to change my life and my family's life. But the idea of fame never really attracted me whatsoever.
我发现这是非常专业的领域。我遇到过有15、20百万YouTube粉丝的人，但我以前从未听说过他们。所以这是个好事，因为我从不想出名。我仍然不一定想出名。我想做的是开拓我的专业领域，建立我的社群，并在过程中赚点钱来改变我的生活和家人的生活。但名声的想法从来没有真正吸引我。
So it's nice to have the. Some of the benefits of it without having some of the shitty parts of it as well. Well, we'll see.
所以拥有它很好。它有一些好处，但同时没有一些糟糕的部分。那么，我们会看到的。
I mean, I still can't believe you're not famous famous, but we'll see how it goes. I'm not, man. I'm talking to you while people are talking about the future of TikTok. And I'm still skeptical that it's going to get banned or restricted in some way. But it's a possibility.
我是说，我还是无法相信你不是那种非常有名的名人，但我们看看会怎样。我并不在意，伙计。人们正在谈论TikTok的未来，而我正在和你聊天。我仍然怀疑它会被禁止或以某种方式受到限制，但这是有可能的。
How are you thinking about the fact that you're working in a platform that may not be accessible to you? Yeah. I mean, I don't think personally it's going to happen either. What I have been doing to try to mitigate any negative happenings from that is diverting people to other platforms that I'm on.
你对于在一个可能无法访问的平台工作的事情有什么想法？嗯，我个人也不认为会发生。为了减轻任何负面情况的发生，我一直尝试把人们引导到我在其他平台上的账号。
So I'm up to about 150,000 on Instagram, growing quite rapidly on Twitter. I think I'm like a 20,000 followers in the last two weeks on Twitter, pushing the YouTube channel as well. I did also just recently signed with William Morrison Devar. So I've got talent representation behind me and they want to take me kind of out of the realm of social media. What are they thinking about TV shows, books? Yeah, I don't know. It's still kind of early. Start job to figure that out.
我在 Instagram 上已经有大约15万个关注者，Twitter 上也在快速增长。在过去的两个星期里，我的 Twitter 关注者增加了大约2万人，同时我也在推广我的 YouTube 频道。最近我也刚刚与 William Morrison Devar 签约了。这意味着我会有经纪人来帮我提升事业，希望把我从社交媒体的领域带出来。他们在考虑电视节目，书籍之类的东西，但还不确定。这是个开始，需要一步步探索。
Yeah, I never thought of myself as a TV person, but I did end up doing a YouTube video where I went to Disney World and just kind of did food reviews kind of on the fly. And I enjoyed it. I never thought I would enjoy doing something like that. I always thought of myself. I'm back of house for a reason.
是的，我从来没有把自己看作是一个看电视的人，但我最终制作了一个YouTube视频，我去了迪士尼世界，随意地做了一些食品评论。我很喜欢并且从来没有想过我会喜欢做那样的事情。我始终把自己看作是后台工作的人。
I never thought that I'd be the face of anything. But I did enjoy the process of recording and editing. It really kind of shown a light on something that I never thought that I would ever want to do. And beyond the sort of like, is TikTok going to be around?
我从来没想过我会成为什么事情的代表。但我确实喜欢录制和编辑的过程。它真的揭示了某些我从未想过会想做的事情。超越像“TikTok是否会存在”的问题。
And I live a version of this with somewhat more stability than you have. You're dependent on, in a lot of ways, on an algorithm that you can't really see into. There's no real sense, I think, on your part of like levers you can pull to like make your stuff more popular.
我过的是一个相对更加稳定的版本，而你则在很多方面都依赖于一个你看不穿的算法。你似乎没有真正意识到可以启动的杠杆，使你的东西变得更加受欢迎。
How do you handle that insecurity? You're going to put your stuff out there and one day it could turn off either because the algorithm changes or TikTok goes away or just people become less interested. How do you think about that? I try not to.
你如何应对这种不安全感呢？你会将你的作品发布出去，但有一天它可能因算法变化、TikTok消失或人们对它失去兴趣而被淘汰。你是怎么考虑这个问题的？我试着不去想它。
Again, I've spent my life working really hard. And knowing that this is an avenue for me now, try not to think about the. If I start thinking about the negatives, I'll just linger on them forever. So I try to kind of. Try to just push it to the side and not think about that kind of stuff. Repress it and push it down. That's it. It's super healthy.
我一辈子都在非常努力地工作，现在知道这是一条我可以走的道路，我尽量不去想那些负面的事情。如果我开始想那些负面的东西，我就会一直沉浸在里面。所以我尝试不去想那些事情。试着把它推到一边，不去想那些事情。压抑和压制它。这很健康。
Like always tell me everything. Like all the memories of my childhood. That's exactly what I do. Got any advice for any other people who didn't think they were going to be famous and are now looking at you.
就像总是告诉我所有事情一样。就像我童年的所有记忆一样。这正是我所做的。你有没有对那些原本认为自己不会出名，现在看着你的人有什么建议？
Well, they're not looking at you, but I guess they are looking at you and going, if that guy can do it, I can do it. I mean, yes, that's the advice that I have that literally anybody can do this shit. Not.
嗯，他们并不是在看着你，但我猜他们会看着你说，“如果那家伙可以做到，我也能做到。”我的意思是，是的，我有一个建议，字面意义上任何人都可以做到这件事。不是说说而已。
People ask me, like, what's your secret and what's your trick? And I tell them every time, like, I don't have one. None of this makes any sense to me. I don't find myself particularly funny or interesting. People say I have a good voice. I hate my voice.
人们问我：“你有什么秘密和窍门？” 我每次都会告诉他们，我没有。我对这一切都感到很迷惑，我不觉得自己特别有趣或有才华。人们说我有好听的声音，但我却讨厌自己的声音。
I come from an Eastern European background, so I've been, you know, brow-beaten my entire life into thinking that I'm less important than I actually am. So that's kind of really helping me deal with this stuff right now, not letting my head get big whatsoever, staying grounded.
我来自东欧背景，所以我一直以来都被灌输着认为自己比实际还要不重要。所以现在这些事情对我来说挺有帮助的，因为我一点都不会变得自大，而是保持脚踏实地。
And my advice would be to just, if you want to do it, just try it and see what happens. Like, it costs nothing to start a take. It costs nothing. What's the worst thing? I guess you could have lost your job, but not you could anyway.
我的建议就是，如果你想尝试，那就去试一试，看看会发生什么。就像，开始一项任务不需要任何成本。什么是最糟糕的结果？我想你可能会失去工作，但这种情况可能在任何时候发生。
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I could have lost my job. I had my employer found out about what I do, because my views aren't necessarily in line with that of my current, soon to be previous employer.
是啊，是啊，是啊。我的意思是，如果我的雇主发现了我做什么，我可能会失去工作，因为我的观点与我的现任雇主并不一致，而且我很快就要辞职了。
So yeah, that is definitely a pitfall for somebody like me who swears constantly and says things that could be considered. I don't know. I wouldn't say controversial, but like I. Some you edge up to some adult content. I do. I do. And I have opinions on the restaurant industry as a whole that aren't necessarily in line with the norms in the restaurant industry.
嗯，对于像我这样经常咒骂和说一些可能被认为是……我不知道。我不会说有争议，但有些涉及到成人内容的话，这绝对是一个陷阱。我有时会说这些话。我还对整个餐厅行业有一些意见，这些意见并非与餐厅行业的规范相符。
I think that's part of the appeal, right? Is that you're giving people sort of the unvarnished look. It's kind of the way that Anthony Bourdain did when he first sort of broke. It's a different thing, but it's a got that vibe. Like I'm giving you the real deal. I'm giving you the uncensored look at how people in the back, people in the back think about what they're making for you.
我认为这也是它吸引人的部分，对吧？也就是说，你向人们展示一种真实的、毫无掩饰的形象。这有点像 Anthony Bourdain 最初出现时的风格。虽然是不同的东西，但是却有一种相同的感觉。就像我带给你的是真正的东西。我为你呈现的是人们从事做菜这件事时，内心真正的想法，没有删减。
Yeah, I and you know, there's people treat food with with a certain amount of reverence that maybe isn't required all the time. If you get what I'm trying to say, like it's just fucking food. We're like at the end of the day, we're not. We're not sculpting Michelangelo and we're not, you know, reinventing the wheel. It's just we're cooking food. It's not that. It's not that hard.
是的，我和你都知道，有些人对食物的态度非常敬畏，但并不总是必要的。如果你明白我的意思，就是说，这只是一种简单的食物。我们到了一天结束的时候，我们不是正在塑造米开朗基罗，也不是在重新发明轮子。我们只是在烹饪食物，这并不难。
That is what I love about all your bit. Well, I love many things like your videos, but you will constantly like make fun of the person who's making it and talk about how terrible it looks and then you go, I would eat it. I would, every time I say that I would try something or I would eat something, I legitimately would like a people think, oh, you're a chef, you must eat gourmet meals all the time. Absolutely not.
这就是我喜欢你的所有东西的原因。嗯，我喜欢很多东西，比如你的视频，但你总是喜欢嘲笑那个制作人，说它看起来多么糟糕，然后你会说，我会吃它的。每次我说我会尝试某些东西或我会吃某些东西，我真的就像人们想的那样，哦，你是厨师，你一定整天吃美食。绝对不是。
The last thing I want to do when I get home is cook. Period. Like they say, janitors have the messiest houses, auto mechanics have the shittiest cars. Chefs don't want to cook when they get home. I'll eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, a bag of chips, and a can of coke and be completely satisfied with that. That's my dinner this weekend. Chef, this was awesome. Peter, thank you. Good luck and congrats on your new gig and I hope it lasts as long as you can make it last. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks again to chef or chef reactions is his full fake name is still still not sure about how to handle that.
我回家最不想做的事情就是做饭，没错。就像他们说的，看门人家里最乱，汽车修理工的车最破烂。厨师们回家也不想做饭。我会吃一份花生酱和果冻三明治，一袋薯片和一罐可乐，那就完全满足了。这个周末这就是我的晚餐。厨师，这真的太好吃了。彼得，谢谢。祝你好运，恭喜你的新工作，希望它能持续尽可能长的时间。非常感谢。我很感激。再次感谢厨师或者说厨师反应，他的全名是他还是不确定如何处理。
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I'm here with Willa Remiss from The Washington Post. Welcome, Will. Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. I'm a long-time fan of your work. I want to talk to you about TikTok, and I also want to briefly mention some of the work you've been doing about AI, which is all-consuming these days.
我跟《华盛顿邮报》的威拉·雷米斯在一起。欢迎，威拉。嘿，谢谢你邀请我。感谢你的光临。我一直以来都是你作品的忠实粉丝。我想跟你谈一谈TikTok，同时也想简单提一下你最近研究的关于人工智能的工作，现在这个话题很火热。
But I intentionally did not cover the TikTok hearings now a couple of weeks ago, because my take on this stuff is that you don't get a lot of value out of watching the stagecraft. I think there's still value in having tech executives. Anybody else called in front of Congress, but I'm not sure we get a ton of insight into it. But I did.
我故意没有报道TikTok前几周的听证会，因为我认为观看这些舞台艺术是没有多少价值的。我认为，让科技高管出席国会听证会仍然很有价值。任何其他人被召到国会面前，但我不确定我们可以从中得到很多启示。但我确实看了。
Now that that sort of heat, that fire is diminished a little bit. I want to talk about where TikTok goes from here. You've covered all this stuff. Can you just briefly lay out the main arguments as to why Americans should be concerned about TikTok? I think they sort of fall into two buckets. Can you tease those out for us?
现在那种热度，那种火热程度已经稍稍降低了。现在我想谈谈TikTok接下来会怎样发展。你已经涵盖了所有的内容，能否简要说明一下为什么美国人应该关心TikTok？我想这些问题可以分为两个方面。你能为我们解析一下吗？
Yeah. Why Americans should be concerned about TikTok is a tough question. I mean, the underlying issue here is basically just that TikTok's parent company, Bite Dance, is based in China. And we don't trust the Chinese government. There are some reasons for the China has a national security law implemented in 2017 that requires companies to turn over personal data if it's relevant to national security to the government.
是的。美国人为什么应该关注TikTok是一个困难的问题。我的意思是，基本上，这里的根本问题就是TikTok的母公司Bite Dance总部位于中国。而我们不信任中国政府。这是因为中国在2017年实施了一项国家安全法，要求企业向政府交出与国家安全相关的个人数据。
So that in itself doesn't feel great to Americans. On the other hand, you could point out that the United States has at times sought and obtained personal data from tech companies. And so the question is how big of an issue is this really and is it big enough to ban the app entirely or is it more like something that we should be aware of as we're using TikTok?
这在美国人看来本身并不好。另一方面，你可以指出美国有时会寻求并获取科技公司的个人数据。因此，问题在于这到底有多大的问题，它是否足够大到完全禁止该应用，还是更像是我们在使用TikTok时应该注意的一些事情？
Yeah. And just to tease this out, I mean, when you say it's by TikTok's owner is based in China, you don't do business in China unless you are directly connected to the Chinese government. They just don't allow it. If you're a foreign company, you have to sort of allow Chinese investment. It is fair to say that there are direct connections between the Chinese government and all of its companies. They just don't operate on, unfettered.
没错。再说一下，你说TikTok的所有者是中国的，如果你不跟中国政府有直接联系，你就不能在中国做生意。他们就是不允许这样做。如果你是一个外国公司，你必须允许中国的投资。可以说，中国政府和所有的公司之间存在直接联系。但是它们并不是完全自由运作的。
Besides that the data, the data issue, I think the other argument people bring up, but I'm curious about your take on this about TikTok is because it is deeply connected to the Chinese government. Even if you're not concerned about data or if you're equally concerned about data from China as you are the US, this is a country that is in many ways in opposition to the US and there's a concern they could use TikTok to either push out information or suppress information either way and it being nearly impossible for us to determine that.
除了数据问题，我认为人们提出的另一个争论是关于TikTok与中国政府有着密切联系的问题。即使你不关心数据，或者你对来自中国和美国的数据同样担忧，但这个国家在许多方面都与美国对立，人们担心他们可能利用TikTok来传播信息或压制信息，而我们几乎无法确定这一点。你怎么看待这个问题呢？
Does that strike you as a valid concern as well? It's hard to know how valid the concerns are. There's not documented evidence of the Chinese government interfering in TikTok in pretty much any way. There is documented evidence of TikTok doing some shady things, not particularly different than US tech companies have done.
那对你来说也是一个有效的担忧吗？很难知道这些担忧的有效性。几乎没有文档证据表明中国政府以任何方式干涉TikTok。有文档证据表明TikTok做了一些不光彩的事情，与美国科技公司所做的并没有什么特别不同。
There was an instance where TikTok employees were trying to figure out who was leaking stuff to the media and they used the location data. I think it was actually IP data because I don't think they collect GPS data anymore on American users. They say they don't. It was IP data trying to track the location of these journalists and TikTok employees to see, did we have any employees at the same place at the same time as these journalists. That's a really shady thing to do. It's a good reason not to trust a company. It's also straight from the playbook of companies like Facebook.
有一次，TikTok的员工试图找出谁在泄露消息给媒体，他们使用了位置数据。我认为实际上是IP数据，因为我认为他们不再收集美国用户的GPS数据了。他们说不是。它是IP数据，试图跟踪这些记者和TikTok员工的位置，以查看我们是否有员工与这些记者在同一时间在同一地方。这是一件非常可疑的事情。这是不信任公司的一个很好的理由。这也是像Facebook这样的公司的惯用法。
You point out the ties, I just wanted to touch on something you pointed out, which is the ties between Chinese companies and the Chinese government. I'm not a China expert. I do work with some China experts and talk to them now. My understanding is that it's complicated. You can't ascend to the heights of the Chinese business world without towing a line with the government. At the same time, I've talked to China tech analysts who say, the tech companies are very wary of the government. They're not necessarily in bed with the government. They're trying to appease the government to the extent they can. Stay on its good side while doing stuff that the government is naturally suspicious of. There's a tension between them and the government. My understanding is that's the case between bite dance and the CCP as well. It doesn't take away from your point.
你指出了中外联系，我只是想谈谈你提到的中国公司和政府之间的联系。我不是中国专家，但我和一些中国专家合作并与他们交谈。我的理解是这很复杂。你不能在中国商业世界里达到巅峰而不与政府合作。同时，我和一些中国技术分析师交谈过，他们说，科技公司非常警惕政府。他们不一定和政府勾结。他们试图在可以的范围内取悦政府。保持良好关系，同时做一些政府自然怀疑的事情。他们和政府之间存在紧张关系。我的理解是字节跳动和中国共产党之间也是如此。这并不会削弱你的观点。
I think Americans might think that bite dance and the Chinese government are one and the same. That's not quite my impression. Fair enough. I guess I get a little hung up on people say, well, you know, it's not much different than the USS Facebook for information. There is a system. There's a courts and checks and balances. Also, Mark Zuckerberg is unlikely to get disappeared by the US government and the way that Jack Baugh from Alibaba was for it. It's different.
我认为美国人可能会认为抖音和中国政府是一体的，但我并不完全这样认为。可以理解。 我想有点困扰的是人们会说，你知道，这跟美国的Facebook信息平台没有太大区别。但其实并不是这样，它们有制度，有法庭和检查平衡机制。此外，马克·扎克伯格不太可能像阿里巴巴的马云一样被美国政府消失。这是不同的。
Exactly. I agree. It's not the same. Let's stipulate that. Your question was about, could they manipulate the algorithm, the famous TikTok for you page algorithm to make it show stuff that the Chinese government wants Americans to see or disappear stuff that they don't know. It would be more likely to make it hide stuff that they don't want people to see. I think that there is reason to be watch full of that.
完全正确，我同意。它不一样。让我们约定这一点。你的问题是关于，他们是否可以操纵著名的TikTok为您呈现的算法，让它显示中国政府想让美国人看到的东西或消失他们不知道的东西。更有可能让它隐藏他们不希望人们看到的内容。我认为有理由对此保持警惕。
When the Hong Kong protests were going on, there was some reporting that suggested that maybe TikTok was taking down posts showing the protests or posts favorable to the protests. It's not a leap to think that they might do that. Even if the government wasn't saying, hey, you have to take this stuff down, they might just think to themselves, well, gee, it would be a really bad look for us if TikTok became a huge hub for the Hong Kong protesters to get their message out around the world. There's all stuff that is not TikTok, but certainly there are things that we've seen specifically around the Hong Kong protests, like the Chinese government forcing Apple to take down an app that was being used by the protesters and said, this is a police matter. Apple said we have to abide by your rules. That was that. You can make some reasonable guesses about what might happen on TikTok.
当香港抗议活动正在进行时，有些报道暗示TikTok可能会删除显示抗议活动或支持抗议的帖子。认为他们可能会这样做并不是太牵强。即使政府没有要求他们删除这些内容，他们可能会自己想到，嗯，如果TikTok成为香港抗议者向世界传达信息的主要平台，那对我们来说会是一个非常糟糕的形象。这并不完全是TikTok的问题，但肯定有一些特别是围绕香港抗议活动的事情，比如中国政府强迫苹果下架被抗议者使用的一个应用程序并说，这是警察事务。苹果说我们必须遵守你们的规定。就这样了。你可以做出一些合理的猜测，关于TikTok可能会发生什么事情。
I just wanted to lay the arguments, the good faith versions of both of those arguments. Can we walk through some of the proposed solutions? Maybe we can go back to Donald Trump trying to ban TikTok back in 2020. This was a very important thing. Maybe we can go back to Donald Trump trying to ban TikTok back in 2020. This was knowing how Trump operates. This was probably less him being concerned about Americans' data privacy and more a fit of peak because TikTok was a place where K-pop fans were organizing disruptions of his protests. Or just a thing that floated into his head at one point, like buying New Land or bombing Mexico, just a thing he thought of for a minute and someone decided it was good. And also just being Donald Trump being against China is announcing that he's anti-China, as opposed to actually doing anything about it, is a long-standing trope for him.
我只是想阐述一下两个观点的善意版本。我们可以一起看看一些提出的解决方案吗？或许我们可以回到2020年唐纳德·特朗普试图禁止抖音的事件。这是一件非常重要的事情。也许我们可以回到特朗普的禁止抖音尝试，因为我们了解特朗普的作风。这可能不是他真正关心美国数据隐私的原因，而更多地是因为抖音是K-pop粉丝组织抗议活动的地方而发怒。或者只是一个想法，像购买新土地或轰炸墨西哥那样，只是他想到的一个事情，而有人认为这是好的。而特朗普反对中国，宣布他反对中国，而不是实际采取任何行动，这是他长期以来的恶习。
So he jumps in and does an executive order that tries to ban TikTok and he tried to do it by saying that if I recall correctly that Google and Apple can't host TikTok on their app stores, this gets overruled repeatedly by judges who said that it didn't go through the right processes. They didn't show that they had considered other options, that this was overly harsh, that it could have chilling effects on speech. So that was sort of a non-starter.
他跳了进去，下了一个行政命令试图禁止抖音，他试图通过说Google和苹果不能在他们的应用商店上架抖音来实现这一点，但是这被法官们一再推翻，他们认为这样做没有经过正确的程序。他们没有展示他们曾经考虑过其他选项，这是过于严厉的，可能会对言论产生恐吓效应。所以，这算是一个行不通的方案。
It's wild. I mean, it's so surreal to remember this is a thing we were actually talking about, but there was a moment where he's like, not well, they could sell it to us and then we would get a cut of the sale proceeds too, just straight up gangsterism. Anyway, it all went away. Even before Trump left office, he'd sort of lost interest in it. It did, but there was a part of it that lingered.
太疯狂了。我的意思是，记得我们曾经真的讨论过这件事情，感觉非常不真实，但有一个时刻他说，如果他们卖掉了，我们也可以拿到销售收益的一部分，就像纯粹的黑帮行为一样。无论如何，这一切都消失了。即使在特朗普离任之前，他也失去了兴趣。但它确实存在，是有一部分始终萦绕在那里的。
So another possibility at that time was that there could be a forced sale. And I think your listeners probably understand this, but again, so TikTok does not operate in China. You can't download the TikTok app in China. Its parent company, Bite Dance, has a sister app for the Chinese market called Do-Yin. The idea was because TikTok is just for the international market that Bite Dance could sell off TikTok, maybe to an American tech company, and then we wouldn't have to worry about it being Chinese owned. So one of the companies that was floated was Oracle, which was a company that Trump had some ties to.
在当时，还有一种可能是强制出售。我想你们的听众可能已经理解了，但是，TikTok在中国不运营。你无法在中国下载TikTok应用程序。它的母公司字节跳动，有一个面向中国市场的姊妹应用程序叫做抖音。这个想法是，因为TikTok只面向国际市场，字节跳动可以出售TikTok，也许是给美国的科技公司，这样我们就不用担心它是中国所有的了。提出的其中一家公司是甲骨文，这是特朗普有些联系的公司。
And what has come out of that is that TikTok hasn't sold to anybody. It hasn't sold to Oracle, but it struck this deal with Oracle to put all of the data for American users on Oracle servers in Texas, it's called Project Texas. I don't know if they're all in Texas actually, but Oracle's based in Texas. So the idea is the data will be stored in the US. So you don't have to worry about the Chinese government tampering with the data. So that's still a live issue. And that's actually TikTok's main proposal now to get around some of the more draconian actions that the US government could take.
从那之后，抖音并没有被出售给任何人。它没有被出售给Oracle，但它与Oracle达成了协议，在Oracle的德克萨斯服务器上存储所有美国用户的数据，并称其为“德克萨斯计划”。实际上我不知道它们是否都在德克萨斯州，但Oracle的总部在那里。所以这个计划的想法是数据将存储在美国境内，因此您不必担心中国政府篡改数据。这仍然是一个活跃的问题。并且这实际上是抖音现在主要的建议，以避免美国政府采取更严厉的行动。
Does anyone think that's a useful solution? Does anyone who's got a real good faith argument about TikTok think that putting servers in Texas and having Oracle run out of TikTok is a good way to get the data. And having Oracle run them is the solution to any of the problems. Well, I will say I was at the hearing a couple of weeks ago in Congress and the members were certainly not impressed by it. They were very skeptical.
有人认为这是一个有用的解决方案吗？有没有人对TikTok有真正好的信仰论点而认为把服务器放在得克萨斯州，由Oracle运行是获取数据的好方法。 然后由Oracle运行它们是任何问题的解决方案。嗯，我会说我几周前在国会听证会上，成员们肯定没被它印象深刻。他们非常怀疑。
This is actually something we're trying to run down in our reporting. I mean, I think it's an open question. What loopholes would still remain if they moved all the data to the US and had it overseen by Oracle and opened it up for audits? I do think, yeah, I think there's a good faith argument to be made that if you move all the data to the US, you have more transparency actually about where you store your data than American tech companies do, maybe on the margins, we can trust it more.
这实际上是我们在报道中试图追查的事情。我的意思是，我认为这是一个悬而未决的问题。如果他们将所有数据移动到美国并由Oracle监管，并开放审计，那么仍然会存在哪些漏洞？我确实认为，如果将所有数据移动到美国，实际上您可以更透明地了解您存储数据的位置，比美国科技公司做得更好，或许在边缘上，我们可以更加信任它。
Then if all the data is being stored in China, I think that's a reasonable argument. Now, whether it's actually enough to persuade anybody who thinks that we need to ban TikTok, it doesn't seem like it is so far. But that doesn't mean it couldn't end up being the compromise solution. I mean, if we don't get a lot of grandstanding about a TikTok ban, but we don't get an actual TikTok ban, which seems like a plausible outcome, you could see Project Texas still ending up being the thing that we get, even though nobody's that thrilled or excited about it.
如果所有的数据都储存在中国，我觉得这是一个合理的论点。不过，是否足以说服任何认为我们需要禁止TikTok的人，目前似乎并不是这样。但这并不意味着它不能最终成为妥协解决方案。我的意思是，如果我们不会对TikTok禁令大加渲染，但我们也不会实施TikTok禁令，这似乎是一个可行的结果，你会看到Project Texas最终可能仍然成为我们得到的东西，尽管没有人对它感到非常兴奋或激动。
One of the solutions that Trump brought up, remember, Microsoft was going to force a sale to an American company. Microsoft was going to buy it for a minute. Walmart was going to be involved. People bring up that idea as well. It strikes me that there's no way the Chinese government is going to sign off on that, and they've more or less said that. Are there people still pushing for that solution? Just sell it to us and it'll be fine. Yeah, I mean, I think the Biden administration would love that because it would get them out of this jam where they've said that, and lots of other people, they've said that having TikTok owned by a Chinese company is intolerable.
特朗普提出的解决方案之一是，记住，微软打算迫使出售给美国公司。微软打算暂时购买它，沃尔玛也将参与其中。人们也提出过这个想法。我认为，中国政府不可能同意这个想法，并且他们已经或多或少地表示了这一点。仍然有人在推动这个解决方案吗？只要卖给我们，一切都会好起来的。是的，我的意思是，我认为拜登政府很希望这样做，因为这将使他们摆脱这个困境，他们已经说过，很多其他人也说过，让TikTok归中国公司所有是不可忍受的。
And yet, all the solutions are really thorny. There's first amendment issues, there's diplomacy issues with China. I mean, if they would just sell it to an American company, that would resolve the cognitive dissonance without, you know, but I don't think, as you said, China has said that. China has said that they will oppose that. They're not interested in it. And so, you know, it doesn't seem likely at this moment, but you never know.
然而，所有解决方案都非常棘手。首先，会涉及到第一修正案的问题，还有与中国交涉的问题。我的意思是，如果他们把它卖给一家美国公司，那就可以解决认知失调的问题了，但我不认为中国会同意这样做，因为中国已经表明他们反对这样做，他们对此不感兴趣。所以，现在看来这似乎不太可能发生，但你永远不知道。
A lot is up in the air. You mentioned the restrict act. So this is the idea.
许多事情都在悬而未决。你提到了限制法案。这就是这个想法。
So one of the other possibilities, just to back up a second, is just a straight up ban on TikTok. I mean, try to do again what Trump tried to do, but maybe do a better job, justifying it this time, you know, send it through the right processes.
那么，还有另一种可能，先退后一步看看，就是直接禁止TikTok。我的意思是，试图再次做到特朗普试图做的事情，但这次可能表现得更好，通过正确的程序进行合理化，你知道的。
And then the actual lawyers work on the proposals. Yeah. So that's an option that some that some people support. But then the restrict act is something that tries to bring a little more coherence or consistency, because obviously TikTok is not the only Chinese app that's popular in the United States.
然后真正的律师会处理这些建议。是的，这是一些人支持的选项。但是，限制法案试图增加一些一致性或连贯性，因为显然TikTok并不是唯一在美国受欢迎的中国应用程序。
And then it goes on the iOS app store the other day and for the top five apps for Chinese on. Yeah, TikTok, you had CapCut, which is basically a tool for TikTok users that's also made by bite dance. And then you had the shopping app Timo, which is owned by a Chinese company, Pin Do Do, which actually it's coming out now.
然后它出现在iOS应用商店里，成为了中国人最喜欢的前五个应用之一。是的，你有TikTok，还有CapCut，这基本上是一个为TikTok用户设计的工具，也由抖音制作。然后你有Timo购物应用，这是由一家中国公司拥有的，还有拼多多，它现在正在兴起。
Pin Do Do has been doing shadier, waste shadier stuff than then bite dance with its shopping app for Chinese users. There, there are all these weird permissions built into that that app in China. So anyway, the idea. And then she and is I think one of the other top five. Yeah, that's right.
品逗逗比起在中国市场推出的购物应用程序而言，做了更可疑、更浪费的事情。该应用程序中内置了许多奇怪的权限。所以，这就是想法的由来。然后品逗逗成为了前五名之一。是的，说的没错。
Yeah, she and they want to show they're not Chinese, I think, but but they're absolutely Chinese. We've talked about before and they're amazing in many ways.
是的，我想她和他们想要表现出自己不是中国人，但是他们绝对是中国人。我们之前已经谈起过，他们在很多方面都令人惊叹。
But you know, it's just imagine sort of a hyper speed AI powered Amazon, except it's Chinese and everyone's buying fast fashion from them. Yeah, I mean, again, you know, for people who aren't familiar with these, it might sound like random or obscure, but they're not. These are two of the most popular apps in the US right now.
你知道，就像一个超高速人工智能驱动的亚马逊，只不过它是中国的，每个人都从他们那里购买快速时尚。是的，我是说，对于那些不熟悉这些应用程序的人来说，可能会听起来有些随意或不清楚，但它们并不是。它们是目前美国最受欢迎的两个应用程序之一。
So the idea behind the restrict act is instead of just trying to ban TikTok, which, you know, we know courts are going to suspect is kind of arbitrary. We're going to empower the secretary of commerce to review any US companies doing business with certain types of companies that are owned by foreign adversaries and then names a handful of foreign adversaries.
所谓“限制法案”的理念是，与其仅仅试图禁止TikTok，这种做法被法院怀疑是相当武断的。我们将授权商务部长审查任何与被外国对手所拥有的某些类型公司有业务往来的美国公司，然后列出了几个外国对手的名称。
And it kind of feels like, you know, like a backer name is when you start with the we start with the acronym and you work backwards to what it stands for. It kind of feels like the backer name of law. I mean, they really just want to ban TikTok, but they're kind of backing into what's a way we can do this, you know, kind of more broadly and have.
有点感觉就像是一个支持者名称，你知道吗，就是当你以缩略语开始，然后回推到它的意思。这有点像法律的支持者名称。我的意思是，他们真的只想禁止抖音，但他们正在寻找一种更广泛的方式来做到这点，你知道的。
We can say this is not a TikTok ban. This is a protect America ban. And oh, as a result, we're banning TikTok, but that's because this law that allows us to do that.
我们可以说这不是一项 TikTok 禁令，而是一项保护美国的禁令。因此，我们禁止了 TikTok，但这是因为这项法律允许我们这么做。
Exactly. And the law doesn't even mention day as far as I know, at least the initial text didn't even mention TikTok. So so right not a TikTok ban, but it would happen just just happened to ban TikTok.
准确地说，据我所知，甚至法律都没有提到“天”这个词，至少最初的文本中甚至没有提到TikTok。所以现在并不是TikTok被禁止，而是恰好禁止了TikTok。
The other countries that are that that are in the initial text, I think are Cuba around Russia and the Maduro regime in Venezuela. And so, you know, then all apps that are like that have a bunch of personal data on the US or apps that are sort of critical infrastructure and some right not apps, but, you know, companies that make critical infrastructure.
我认为原文中提到的其他国家是古巴和委内瑞拉的马杜罗政权。因此，任何类似的应用程序都会获得美国的大量个人数据，包括一些关键基础设施公司制造的应用程序。
They would get special review and the secretary of commerce would then be empowered to ban them or take other actions. So TikTok says there's 150 million use American users of its app.
特别审查后，商务部部长可以授权禁止他们或采取其他行动。因此，TikTok表示其应用有1.5亿美国用户。
I don't believe that number. It means one out of every two people in America. It does seem like a lot of you is downloaded it and is using it once a month. And if you're around a lot of young people, they're all using TikTok, but you just have to sort of extrapolate that. It doesn't work.
我不相信那个数字，意味着美国每两个人中就有一个在使用它。看起来好像很多人都下载了并每月使用它。如果你经常接触年轻人，他们都在使用TikTok，但你不能只靠这点来推断。这是不可信的。
But it's very popular. And for that reason, I've assumed for a long time that that none of this is ever going to happen because cynically there's just a lot of advantage in coming out and complaining about TikTok and complaining about China and rattling your saber.
但它非常受欢迎。因此，我长期以来一直认为这些事情永远不会发生，因为抱怨TikTok和抱怨中国，挥舞着你的剑，毫无疑问会带来很多好处。
And no one actually wants to be the one responsible for removing one of the most popular apps in the world, particularly with younger people who everyone would theoretically like to become voters. And so my assumption is we'll keep getting kicked down the road and nothing will actually happen.
没有人真正想成为要移除全球最流行的应用程序之一的责任人，特别是对那些所有人都理论上想让他们成为投票者的年轻人来说。所以我认为我们会继续被踢下路，实际上什么都不会发生。
But you tell me, what if you had to handicap this? What are the odds that the TikTok is restrained in some meaningful way in the coming years?
你告诉我，如果你不得不评估这个，会怎么样呢？TikTok在未来几年受到某些有意义的限制的可能性有多大？
I don't want to handicap it because often I think often, you know, with questions like this, if you're a tech reporter, if you're covering this stuff day in, day out, you really have a sense of where it's headed. And yeah, you know, it could, you know, theory go a different way, but you really know what it's going.
我不想限制它，因为很多时候，你知道对于这样的问题，如果你是一位科技记者，如果你每天都在报道这些东西，你真的能感受到它的发展方向。当然，理论上它也可能走另外一条路，但你真的知道它走向何方。
I do not know where this is going. I don't know. And I don't think that I don't think most of the people involved know. I mean, it's a live struggle and the balls up in the air.
我不知道这件事情会走向何方。我不知道，而且我觉得大多数参与其中的人都不知道。我的意思是，这是一场正在进行中的斗争，现在还不确定结果。
And I think that, you know, there's a sense in which TikTok has already been hurt by this. And a year ago, nobody outside of some diehard Trump supporters in China hawks even, you know, was really paying attention to the fact that TikTok is Chinese owned. It wasn't part of the mainstream conversation. I would bet the majority of users didn't know it. I think we're probably getting to the point where the majority of users do know that it's Chinese owned. And that's a big difference. And so already there's an opening there.
我认为，你知道，抖音已经受到了打击。一年前，除了一些坚定的特朗普支持者和针对中国的鹰派外，没人真正注意到抖音是中国所有的事实。它不是主流话题的一部分。我敢打赌，大多数用户并不知道这一点。我认为我们可能已经到达了大多数用户知道它是中国所有的点。这是一个很大的区别。因此，已经有了一个开放的机会。
And I assume we're going to get to this. But there are American competitors waiting in the wings, you know, who have been building their TikTok clones for just in case because this is the hottest social media app in the world. It's the fastest growing. It's the only one that's, you know, really meaningfully growing. It's eating the lunch of the American tech giants. And they would love to see it meaningfully, meaningfully restrained in some way. And they're lobbying hard for that.
我想我们很快就会提到这个问题。有一些美国竞争对手正在等待机会，因为这是全球最热门的社交媒体应用程序，他们已经开始制作类似TikTok的克隆应用程序了。它是增长最快的应用程序，也是唯一一个真正有意义的增长，正在抢占美国科技巨头的市场份额。他们非常希望以某种方式对其进行限制，并正在积极游说。
Yeah, I mean, Facebook slash meta is a particularly interesting one because they really helped launch TikTok. They took a billion dollars in advertising to promote TikTok to their users and it worked really well. There is also cynically but accurately a benefit to meta to having TikTok be successful in America. They can say, how can we possibly be an antitrust target here when we've got TikTok here? It was eating our lunch. It's kind of convenient for them to be around.
嗯，我是说，Facebook斜杠“元”是一个特别有趣的公司，因为他们真的帮助了TikTok的启动。他们花费10亿美元的广告费用来宣传TikTok，并且效果非常好。但还有一点就是，对于“元”来说，TikTok在美国取得成功是有好处的，尽管有些讽刺，但也确实如此。他们可以说，我们还怎么可能成为反垄断的目标呢，我们在这里有TikTok，而且TikTok正在吃掉我们的午餐。对他们来说这似乎挺方便的。
I did want to talk to you about, I called it what about ism and that's not fair to say about your column. But this idea that you're pointing out that saying, hey, all these things you're complaining about TikTok are accurate or plausible. But we also know they're there, they're, they're we can make the same arguments about lots of US companies and lots of concerns.
我之前想跟你谈一下，我称之为“what about ism”，对你的专栏这样说并不公平。但你所提出的观点是，你在指出所有这些你在抱怨 TikTok 的事情都是正确或可信的。但我们也知道，这些问题还存在于许多美国公司和很多关切中。
You did hear some of that product in the hearing, I think a little bit, is there any chance that any of this sort of boomerangs and people say, well, while we're looking at TikTok, let's take renews scrutiny at Google, Facebook, etc. Yeah, you know, I think we, as you said, we saw some of that in the hearing where especially on the, on the democratic side, but some on the Republican side, members were saying this just reinforces the need for privacy legislation.
你听说过一些在听证会上提到的产品吧，我想是一点点。是否有可能这样的事情发生，人们开始说：嗯，既然我们正在关注TikTok，那么我们也应该重新审视Google，Facebook等公司。是的，你知道的，我认为就像你所说的，在听证会上我们看到了这些方面的一些内容，特别是在民主党那一方面，但也有些共和党人认为这只是加强了需要制定隐私立法的必要性。
I see the argument that it's what about ism. You know, TikTok is not the same as Facebook. The Chinese government is not the same as the US government. They both, you know, they both do seek sometimes by shady means to surveil people. But they're not the same. And so let's stipulate that. With that said, the fact that there is no modern, comprehensive online privacy law in the United States at the federal level means that our data is just, I mean, it's out there. It's for sale.
我听到了争论，说这是关于主义的问题。你知道，TikTok和Facebook不一样。中国政府和美国政府也不一样。他们两个都用一些不光彩的手段来监视人们，但他们并不一样。但是，让我们认同这一点。说完这些，实际上美国联邦层面上并没有现代、全面的在线隐私法律，这意味着我们的数据就像放在那里一样，随时都有被出售的风险。
Like every app we use, not everyone. But most of the apps we use are collecting all sorts of data that we're not paying attention to, that we're not aware of, that could be used to stalk us or to, you know, to try to tie us to a crime scene or any number of things. And this is just for sale in the open market. And so as long as there are data brokers out there selling Americans location data or behavioral data or web browsing habits. China could just buy that stuff. So like what's the, I mean, that's my point.
就像我们使用的每个应用程序一样，并非每个应用程序都是如此。但我们使用的大多数应用程序都在收集各种数据，而我们却没有注意到，没有意识到，这些数据可能会被用来跟踪我们，或者试图把我们与犯罪现场联系起来，甚至有可能直接在公开市场上出售。只要有数据经纪人出售美国人的位置数据、行为数据或浏览习惯，中国就可以轻易购得这些信息。所以，我的观点就是，这个问题很严重。
It's not that they're the same. And it's not that we shouldn't give heightened scrutiny to companies that are Chinese owned given what we know about the Chinese government and its laws. But it's like, what does that accomplish unless you're also going to close down some of the other ways that that China or any foreign adversary could obtain data on us.
并不是它们是一样的。我们也不应该轻易相信在中方拥有的公司，因为我们了解中国政府及其法律。但是这就像是：除非你也关闭其他国家或任何外国对手获取我们数据的途径，否则这有何作用呢？
TikTok is unique. It is the first mega popular social internet software owned and operated by a non-American company, really, at least a mega popular one in America, not run by an American company. I'm sure we can fact check and find a couple, you know, well, we can, we can say it's the only one that to achieve this scale because it's really, it's been rarefied air in terms of just how massive it is.
TikTok 很独特。它是第一个由非美国公司拥有和运营的超级流行的社交互联网软件，至少在美国是一个超级流行的非美国企业运营的社交软件。我相信我们可以查证并找到一些相似的，不过，我们可以说它是唯一一个达到这种规模的，因为它真的是非常大的。
And one thought I have is wow, this, this, this should give us a little bit of pause and consider what the world looks like if you're not in America. And you have complaints about Facebook or Google or Twitter and your countries don't seem to have any sort of ability to rein them in and you sort of have to live with what an American tech has brought you.
我有一个想法，哇，这个，这个，这个应该让我们稍微停一下，考虑一下如果你不在美国，而且你对Facebook或Google或Twitter有抱怨，你的国家似乎没有能力控制它们，你只能接受美国科技给你带来的一切。
But I'm wondering is anyone thinking about sort of if we're going to see another version of this one day and how we're going to handle sort of the possibility of other stuff coming to American shores. That has enormous power and influence does isn't under direct control. We can't haul them up from front of Congress. We can't, we can't legislate against them directly. Is anyone processing that or we're just sort of saying this is this is what we're dealing with right now.
我在想，是否有人考虑过，假设有一天我们会看到这个的另一个版本，我们将如何处理其他可能会到达美国海岸的事情。它们具有巨大的权力和影响力，而且并不处于直接控制之下。我们无法把它们拖到国会面前。我们也无法就它们直接立法。有人正在考虑这个问题吗，还是我们只是说，现在我们正在处理这个呢？
That's a great question. I have not heard a lot of people talking about that. I mean, you know, in the long run if you think that we're moving to an era where the United States doesn't just get to decide everything for everybody all the time. This is not going to be the last. I think you're right about that. I mean, I think that's a, that's a great point.
那是个很好的问题。我没听到很多人谈论过这个。我的意思是，如果你认为我们正在走向一个时代，在这个时代美国不能一直为所有人做出决定。这不会是最后一次。我认为你是对的。我的意思是，我认为这是个很棒的观点。
And so this is probably, you know, an early skirmish maybe in a longer term struggle over what the United States does about the fact that it isn't going to run everything in terms of the, the tech world specifically, but also more broadly speaking of popular potentially popular, potentially powerful, potentially scary technology.
所以，你们知道，这可能是一场早期的战斗，或许是在美国决定如何应对事实的更长期的斗争中的一部分，这个事实就是美国不会在技术世界，尤其是在普遍而潜在的流行、潜在的强大、潜在的可怕技术方面包揽一切。
You're writing a lot about AI. I'm fascinated with it. We're going to spend a lot of time on this show in the near future. You've been covering a lot of it. But I did want to ask you about one particular story you wrote the last couple days. It is about chat GPT, the search. I don't know what you call it. The software run by open AI, which has falsely accused a law professor of sexual harassment. Can you walk us through the details of that story? Then tell us what's going to happen next.
你写了很多关于人工智能的东西，我对此很着迷。在不久的将来，我们会在节目中花费很多时间讨论这个。你已经涉及了很多它的内容。但我确实想问一下你最近写的一个特别的故事。它是关于聊天GPT搜索的。我不知道你怎么称呼它。这个软件由 open AI 运行，错误地指控了一位法学教授犯有性骚扰罪。你能给我们详细介绍一下这个故事的细节吗？然后告诉我们接下来会发生什么。
Yeah, that's kind of a wild story. So a guy named Eugene Volok and I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. He's a pretty well known lawyer. He blogs at a site called the Volok conspiracy, sort of libertarian leaning. He's doing some research. And he's using chat GPT and he asks it, you know, is sexual harassment a problem? I'm sorry, I'm not going to get the exact prompt right, but is sexual harassment a problem in American law schools?
嗯，这个故事还真有点过分。有个名叫尤金·沃洛克的家伙，希望我发音没错。他是一位相当知名的律师，他在一个名叫沃洛克阴谋的网站上写博客，有点偏向自由主义。他正在进行一些研究，并且他正在使用聊天GPT，他问它，你知道吗，性骚扰是一个问题吗？我很抱歉，我可能没记准他的询问内容，但是，性骚扰在美国的法学院是个问题吗？
And, you know, and if so, site five examples of sexual harassment scandals involving law professors and site your sources, you know, give me real newspaper articles to back it up. And so, chat GPT spits out, you know, yes, this is a problem. It spits out five examples and gives names. It gives newspaper articles as citations. It even gives, you know, it gives dates, everything.
你们知道的，如果是这样的话，给我列出涉及法律教授的性骚扰丑闻的五个例子，并提供真实的新闻文章来支持你的说法。GPT聊天输出，你知道的，确实存在这个问题。它输出了五个例子并且给出了名字。还提供了报纸文章作为引用。它甚至给出了日期，所有的一切都有了。
And it turns out that some of them are real and then others are completely fabricated. The incidents described didn't exist. The person was never accused. And they even, it's actually even invented newspaper articles to back it up.
原来有些事情是真实的，而其他一些则完全是虚构的。所描述的事件根本不存在。那个人从未被指控过。他们甚至还编造了报纸文章来支持此事。
So one of the guys that named was this well known constitutional lawyer, Jonathan Terley, he's a sometimes Fox News commentator at George Washington University. And it says, in 2018, Jonathan Terley, a Georgetown professor, which is not quite right, George Washington, but George Town professor was accused of trying to touch a student and making sexual advances on a class trip to Alaska. And here's a Washington post article about it. The Washington post article doesn't exist. It's all made up.
所以其中一个被提及的人是著名宪法律师Jonathan Terley，他曾是乔治.华盛顿大学的Fox新闻评论员。文章中说到，2018年，约翰特利被指控在一次去阿拉斯加的班级旅行中试图触碰一名学生并对她做出性骚扰行为。这里有一篇关于此事件的华盛顿邮报文章，但这篇文章是假的，纯属虚构。
And so the Terley finds out about it from, from Volok and writes an op-ed about it in USA today saying, chat GPT accused me of sexual harassment. All right. This is, this is alarming. Nobody wants to get accused of a crime by an AI, particularly a crime that carries such a stigma. Maybe it's not, I don't know if it's a crime. It's a, you know, it's obviously. You don't want to be accused of sexual harassment. Nobody wants to be a choose of sexual harassment. And, and so, and yet there's something weird about it because like if a, if the Washington Post had accused him of sexual harassment, that would mean everybody who reads the Washington Post sees that story.
所以，特利从沃洛克那里发现了这件事，并在《今日美国》上撰写了一篇评论，称GPT指控我性骚扰。这真是令人震惊。没有人想被AI指控犯罪，特别是一种带有如此污名的罪行。也许不是罪行，我不知道。显然，你不想被指控性骚扰。没有人想成为性骚扰的被告。然而，有些事情很奇怪，因为如果《华盛顿邮报》指控他性骚扰，那意味着所有读《华盛顿邮报》的人都会看到这个故事。
And, you know, he can complain about it to the Washington Post and, you know, try to get a correction and sue the Washington Post. All right. What happens when it was just one guy putting in one prompt on chat GPT and getting that as a response? It's, it's, it's different in so many ways. And it's just this, this kind of like novel problem that these chat bots based on large language models raise.
还有，你知道，他可以向《华盛顿邮报》抱怨并尝试获得更正并起诉《华盛顿邮报》。好的。但如果只是一个人在聊天 GPT 上放入一个提示并得到相应的回复，会发生什么呢？从很多方面来看，这是不同的。这些基于大型语言模型的聊天机器人引发了这种新颖的问题。
I mean, the other problem is, and, and no one, I don't think, I think your article said there might be a libel seat coming in a, in a different case. But no one has sort of taken on the engines and said, you have accused me of something falsely. If, if the Washington Post wrote that story and it was flat out wrong, I don't know that you'd win a libel case necessarily, but you'd have a very strong start for one and you'd know who to blame.
我是说，另一个问题是，没有人，我不认为有人，我认为你的文章说可能会有一个诽谤座位在一个不同的案例中。但是没有人采取措施，说你指控我虚假的事情。如果《华盛顿邮报》报道了这个故事，而且完全是错的，我不知道你一定会赢得诽谤案件，但你会有一个非常强大的开始，而且你会知道该指责谁。
In this case, you know, when you guys asked, open a, the company to be high chat to GPT, they said, well, you know, we're working on this stuff and it's good for us to get wrong answers because we improve. This is also the standard argument you hear from Microsoft when, when they're, when they're open AI version of Bing tells Kevin Russo, the New York Times that he should leave his wife. Well, thank you for pointing out this problem. We're working on it.
在这种情况下，你们问打开一家公司高聊天到GPT时，他们说，我们正在研究这个问题，得到错误的答案对我们很有帮助，因为这可以让我们改进。当微软开放AI版本的Bing告诉纽约时报的Kevin Russo应该离开他的妻子时，你也会听到这种标准的论点。谢谢你指出这个问题，我们正在努力解决。
There is a, I think, partially a genuine engineering mindset that says tech needs to get better. The first things will not be nearly as good as the things down the road. There's no way you're not going to have mistakes. It's just how technology works. We've got to, you got to live with that.
我认为有一种真正的工程思维认为科技需要不断进步。初步的产品肯定没有后期的产品那么好。一定会出现瑕疵，这是科技运作的规律。我们必须学会接受这一点。
There's another version which says we have to sort of have a legal ease version of this argument, but they both come to the same thing, which chill out, it's going to get better. Do you think that's going to be an acceptable response? Because I assume we'll see more and more of these stories as this stuff gets used more and more.
还有一个版本说我们必须对这个论点进行一种法律专业术语版本的排序，但它们都是同样的意思，就是冷静下来，事情会变得更好。你认为那样回应可以接受吗？因为我认为随着这些东西的使用越来越多，我们会看到越来越多这样的故事。
I guess the other arguing could be the stuff will get better and better and we'll have fewer errors, but it seems like there will be many of these horror stories coming down the pike. I think most people who are just starting to hear about AI haven't really contemplated this. I think most of them, if they're contemplating and imagine that AI is going to be super powerful and super accurate and maybe used by kids to cheat on homework or use to displace people from work, not that it's actually going to be flat out wrong so much at the time.
我猜另一种争论可能是会越来越好，错误会减少，但看起来仍会有很多可怕的故事发生。我认为大多数刚开始听到人工智能的人还没有真正考虑到这个问题。如果他们在考虑并想象人工智能将会非常强大和精准，或者可能被孩子用来作弊或用于取代人类工作，而并不是在实际运行时会出现很多错误。
Yeah, all of a sudden we're back in the era of move fast and break things. We saw this with social media, ride hailing apps, big data, when there's a new wave of innovation and a new tech that has a lot of promise, all the incentives are for companies to race, to build it as fast as they can and then ask for forgiveness later. That's exactly what we're seeing.
是的，突然之间我们回到了快速前进和破坏的时代。我们曾经在社交媒体、打车应用、大数据等方面看到过这种情况。当一波新的创新和有很多前途的新技术出现时，所有的刺激措施都是让公司尽快建立它，然后以后再求原谅。这正是我们现在正在看到的情况。
They were companies, it can seem like the AI chatbots came out of nowhere if you weren't paying attention for years and years, but they were being built behind closed doors at big companies like Google and Facebook. Those companies had these big AI ethics teams that were saying we can't release this to the public, it's too flawed, it's going to mislead people, it gets stuff wrong, all the stuff that we're in fact seeing now. Also, they kept it, they just kept testing it in labs, open AI comes along and says, hey, it would be a lot more efficient if we're trying to figure out what can go wrong here and fix it. Let's just put it out to the public, call it an experiment and let everybody find the flaws and then we'll fix them one by one.
如果你没有多年关注，那么AI聊天机器人似乎突然冒出来，但它们确实是在像Google和Facebook这样的大公司内部建造。这些公司拥有庞大的AI伦理团队，他们认为我们不能将这些机器人发布给公众，因为它们有太多的缺陷，会误导人们，发生错误等等，这些现在看来确实是问题。此外，他们仍在实验室中测试，OpenAI出现了，他们说：嘿，我们可以更有效地找出问题并加以解决。让我们将其公开，称其为一项实验，让每个人发现缺陷，然后逐个修复。
There is a sense in which if you're trying to optimize for building a better AI system, putting it out there and letting the whole world play with it gets you there faster, it also breaks a lot of stuff along the way. That's what we're seeing and because OpenAI had such an amazing success doing that with chat GPT, it really forced the hand of all the others. Now all the big tech companies are like, oh crap, we got to release this stuff to the public and so there really is a race now with Bing and Bard and Meta coming out with something.
有一种感觉，如果你试图优化建立一个更好的人工智能系统，将其放出并让全世界与它互动可以更快地实现目标，但也会在这一过程中破坏很多东西。这就是我们目前所看到的情况，因为OpenAI在聊天GPT方面获得了惊人的成功，因此这确实迫使其他所有大型科技公司也必须将其公开发布。现在，与维文、巴德和Meta推出一些东西相比，真的存在一场竞赛。
Yeah, it wasn't just the ethicists within Facebook and Google saying, hey, we got to be slow on this, right? It's at the very top of the company, the people there being very aware that they are facing antitrust suits, that they are under enormous political scrutiny and for them to come out and with a half working product that is going to falsely accuse people of whatever. I think they were fully, they were very aware of the risk of doing that and it has taken OpenAI not encumbered by that stuff, working with Microsoft who fought the US government for years but seems to have sort of emerged as the successfully positioned itself as the big tech company you don't have to worry about. Yes, that was not accidental, that was very deliberate strategy. They went ahead and did this and there's a lot of internal frustration at Meta and Google say, I wish we could have done that but we can no longer move fast and break things.
是的，这不仅仅是Facebook和Google内部的伦理学家说：“嘿，我们必须慢一点，对吧？”公司最高层的人，他们非常清楚地意识到他们面临反垄断诉讼，他们承受着巨大的政治审查压力，他们要出来一个半成品，会错误地指控人们的行为。我认为他们完全意识到那样做的风险，而OpenAI不受这些限制，与耐操性极强的微软合作，他们与美国政府战斗多年，但似乎已经成功地定位为您无需担心的大型科技公司。是的，这不是偶然的，这是非常有意识的策略。他们继续前进并做到了这一点，而在Meta和Google内部却有很多内部挫败感，说：“我希望我们也能那样做，但我们不能再快速地加速和破坏了。”
I'm going to write a lot more about this, I'm going to have you on and you're going to write a lot more about this. So let's continue that conversation down the road. Willa Remus from the Washington Post, thank you for joining us.
我会写更多关于这个话题，我想邀请你来谈论并一起写更多的内容。希望我们未来还能继续这个话题。感谢《华盛顿邮报》的Willa Remus加入我们的讨论。
Peter, I really enjoyed it, thanks. Thanks again to Will, thanks again to Chef. Still with me, but thanks to Jolani and Travis for producing and editing, thanks to our sponsors. Bring us this show for free. We love sponsors, sponsors make the world go round. We love you guys too. We again have something very cool for you regarding AI. Starting next week, we'll see you then.
彼得，我真的很享受这个节目，谢谢。再次感谢威尔和厨师。还有感谢乔拉尼和特拉维斯的制作和编辑，以及我们的赞助商让我们免费播出这个节目。我们喜欢赞助商，赞助商让世界转动。我们也爱你们。我们下周会带给大家一些关于人工智能的非常酷的东西。到时见！