Building a Second Brain + Writing a Book with Tiago Forte
发布时间 2022-06-14 12:08:46 来源
Welcome back to the channel everyone today. I'm with a very special guest I'm with Chagel Forte. We've been following each other's work for years now But it's the first time ever we meet in person and we're going to talk about a lot of things that we both care about Notepad, notemaking, creativity, productivity and his book So welcome Chagel. Thanks so much for being here on the channel. It's so such a pleasure. Thank you for having me
欢迎回来收看我们的频道，大家好！今天我有一位特别的嘉宾——Chagel Forte。我们已经互相关注对方的作品很多年了，但这是我们第一次面对面见面。我们将会聊很多我们都关心的话题：记事本、做笔记、创造力、生产力，以及他的书籍。欢迎你，Chagel。非常感谢你来到这个频道。能请到你真是太高兴了。
So first things first for a lot of people note taking sounds like a boring thing You're probably reminded of being first to sit in a classroom having to listen to your teacher who's maybe a little bit boring and Trying to write down as many things as possible because you have an upcoming test So what about you? What's your relationship with note taking and when exactly did you get interested into it?
首先，对于很多人来说，记笔记听起来像是一件无聊的事情。你可能会想起自己坐在教室里，不得不听一个可能有点无聊的老师讲课，并尽可能多地写下一些东西，因为你有个即将到来的考试。那么，你呢？你和记笔记之间是什么样的关系？你是什么时候开始对它感兴趣的？
Yeah, let's see I was never a good note-taker. I wasn't a good student. I was a mediocre student all all the way through college I didn't do it right. I didn't see the point. I love to learn. I love to read but I wasn't good at kind of the rope memorization that note taking in school and kind of implied or required And so I don't know sometimes people think I was like a just a dedicated young note-taker I really wasn't
是的，让我想想，我从来不是一个擅长记笔记的人。我当学生时表现得也不太好。从高中到大学，我一直是一名中等水平的学生，我没有用正确的方法学习，因为我没有看到意义所在。我热爱学习，喜欢阅读，但我不擅长那种机械式的记忆，而这在学校的记笔记中似乎是必不可少的。所以，有时候人们以为我从小就很认真记笔记，但其实我并不是这样。
I really wasn't you know where it really started was a chronic medical condition. It was really health When I was around 22 I came down one day for no apparent reason just out of the blue with a just an unexplained like pain intention in my in my neck and my throat and To this day, I still actually don't fully know what it's from or what caused it But with the US medical system when you have a chronic condition or when that's not explained you have it's like a part-time job You get in the mail every week Paperwork informs you have to take notes you have to write down what all these different specialists are telling you
我其实并不确定，不过真正的开始是在于一个慢性疾病，确实是健康问题。在我大约22岁的时候，有一天我突然莫名其妙地感到脖子和喉咙的一种不能解释的疼痛和紧张感。直到今天，我仍然不知道它的真正原因或是什么引起的。但是在美国的医疗系统中，如果你有一个慢性病或者无法解释的病症，就像是在做兼职工作一样。你每周都会收到大量的文件，你需要做笔记，记录下各个专家告诉你的所有信息。
You have to cross-reference it you have to go do research but then not only do your own research please Take that research Check it with your doctor. There's all this work and I remember you know being 22 and thinking I just wanted to live my life. I wanted to go on adventures I wanted to experience people and places and I just had to I needed a system to just manage all this medical related information In a way that didn't take up all my time and all my energy
你需要交叉参考信息，做一些研究，但不仅仅是做自己独立的研究，还请把那些研究结果拿去跟医生确认。这一切都需要很多精力，我记得在我22岁时，我只想过自己的生活。我想去冒险，想去体验各种人和地方，但我不得不面对现实，需要一个系统来管理所有与医疗相关的信息，这样才能不耗费我所有的时间和精力。
And then once I had this general purpose note-taking system As I talk about in the book actually I just started applying it I applied it to go serve in Ukraine in the Peace Corps to live overseas where I was an English teacher So I would use it to organize and plan up my lessons for my my English teaching I used it to apply for my first job. I used it to start my blog and then to You know outline and kind of plan the content for my blog use it to start a business
然后，当我有了这个通用的笔记系统之后，就像我在书中提到的那样，我开始实际应用它。我利用这个系统去乌克兰参加和平队，担任一名英语教师。我用它来组织和规划我的英语教学课程。后来，我用它来申请我的第一份工作，并用它来开始撰写我的博客，然后规划博客的内容，甚至用它来创业。
So after all these experiences like kind of just Arrived at the conclusion that this was something that wasn't just for one use case like in school to pass a test or to write an essay It was something that could be used to solve any kind of problem
在经历了这些事情之后，我终于得出了一个结论：这不仅仅是为了应对某一个情况，比如在学校通过考试或写作文。这东西可以用来解决任何问题。
That's amazing basically a way to pass the biggest exam that we all have to take continuously which is life Right, yes, yes, so wait all of that whether it was what you did in the Peace Corps Where applying for jobs or your blog all of that was living into the same note-taking system
这真是太棒了！这基本上就是通过人生这个我们都必须不断面对的最大考试的方法。对，就是这样。无论是你在和平队的经历，申请工作的历程，还是写博客，这一切都是在使用同一个笔记系统进行记录。
No, it definitely evolved greatly and this is something I always I always like to highlight is I've had to switch multiple times. I mean it started on paper Then I was doing it. I mean this was way back 15 years ago, so I was on Microsoft Word you can believe it that I was on Google Docs And now I'm on ever note ever note, you know is kind of getting Getting older so I'm now looking at the next generation
不，这绝对是有很大演变的，这是我总是喜欢强调的一点，因为我不得不多次切换。我是说，一开始是在纸上作记录，然后，我做这些事情的时候，那可是15年前，我用的是微软Word，你能相信吗？后来用了Google Docs，而现在我用的是Evernote。不过，Evernote也有点过时了，所以我在寻找下一代的工具。
So it's like there's a through line there. There's a second brain kind of principle that was always a work But the platform has had to graduate from one technology to the next I really like this I'm a big proponent of building systems and following general principles Rather than trying to stick to a specific tool.
所以，这就像是有一个贯穿其中的线索。“第二大脑”的原理一直在发挥作用，但这个平台不得不从一种技术进化到下一种。我非常喜欢这一点，我大力支持建立系统并遵循一般性原则，而不是拘泥于特定的工具。
Yeah, this is actually a good mark of a good system If you can take it and translate it through different tool and still works. Yes, right? What about now? What does your current system look like? My current system is centered around ever note. I'm an OG. I'll be the last ever note user I'll be there at the at the headquarters just knocking on the door But I've been using that for 10 years now, which is kind of wild
是的，这实际上是衡量一个好系统的标准。如果你能通过不同的工具进行翻译，并且它仍然有效，那就是不错的系统。是吧？那么现在呢？你的现有系统是什么样的？
我目前的系统以Evernote为中心。我是一个老用户，我可能会是最后一个使用Evernote的人。我会到他们总部敲门。我已经用了10年了，真是有点不可思议。
But I also have kind of I think of it as this like constellation ever notice like the Sun And you have the planets and asteroids and the different planetary bodies Which are like insta paper as a read later app Things three as a task manager busy Cal as a calendar Notion as a kind of general content manager That's more for the team more for the company and these days We've also started using click up for a team task management. That's amazing I know that quite a few people who are watching this channel are already familiar with your work But for the benefit of those who aren't can you explain what exactly is the building a second brain method and How does it work with your own system?
但我也认为这就像一个星座。你注意到太阳，周围有行星、小行星和不同的天体。比如，InstaPaper是一个“稍后阅读”应用，Things Three是任务管理器，BusyCal是日历，Notion是一个通用的内容管理器，更适合团队和公司。最近我们还开始使用ClickUp进行团队任务管理，这实在太棒了。我知道观看这个频道的很多人已经熟悉你的工作，但为了那些不太了解你的人，你能解释一下什么是建设第二大脑的方法吗？以及它是如何与你自己的系统一起运作的？
Absolutely, so a second brain is this it's a system of knowledge management. So imagine At the most basic level you have too much to remember I can pretty much just declare you You have too much to remember so We talked about this in our other conversation before you know ascending to more advanced levels of you know cognition What I tell people is get the bottom 30% What is this stuff? You're just trying to memorize you're just trying to like remember just trying to keep track of Storage memory is something that technology does much better doesn't forget It doesn't sleep. It doesn't lose track of things like we do and so it's really an extension of your memory on the most basic level And that's kind of the gateway That's the entrance right, but then once you start doing that you start discovering things such as well now that I've Offloaded that 30% there's kind of 30% at the top that's free and what what tends to happen with that is you use it for creativity for Imagination for collaboration for creating new things and that's where it starts to go from kind of mere storage to these more Unexpected and kind of surprising possibilities.
当然，“第二大脑”是一个知识管理系统。想象一下，最基本的层面上，你有太多东西需要记住。我可以肯定地说，你真的有太多东西需要记住。在我们之前的对话中，我们谈到了提升到更高的认知水平。我告诉人们的是，腾出底部的30%。这些东西是什么呢？就是那些你试图去死记硬背、时刻追踪的内容。存储记忆是科技擅长的事情，科技不会忘记，不会疲倦，也不会像我们一样失去线索。因此，第二大脑实际上是你记忆的延伸，这是最基本的功能。这有点像入口。然而，一旦你开始这么做，你会发现一些事情，比如说，当你卸下那30%的记忆负担时，顶端会腾出30%的空间。而通常你会用这些空间来进行创造、想象、合作以及创作新事物。这就是从单纯的存储扩展到某些意外和令人惊喜的可能性的过程。
That's amazing So it's not only note-taking This is a difference that I make we've talked about it before but that's something I was very curious to ask you about I keep on telling people and you probably know this that I Don't think that pure note-taking in the sense of just capturing information without processing it Is that helpful when it comes to understanding and recalling information at least in a useful way where you can actually create your own content out of it So what I advocate for is note-making where you refresh things into your own language where you really make it your own when you connect to dots How does that work in the BASB model?
那太棒了！所以这不仅仅是做笔记。我想强调一下我们之前讨论过的差异，不过我非常好奇地想问你。我一直告诉别人，你可能也知道这一点，我认为单纯的笔记记录，也就是说只是捕捉信息但不进行处理，这在理解和记忆信息时并不是很有帮助，至少不是以一种你能基于它创造出自己内容的有用方式。因此，我主张的是“做笔记”，就是把信息转换成自己的语言，让它真正成为你的一部分，并将点滴联系起来。那么，在BASB（构建第二大脑）模型中，这个过程是如何运作的呢？
Yeah, I completely agree. I'm completely on the same page. It's funny. I What I like about note-taking is It gets people on the first rung of the ladder. It's like you know if I say building a second brain and personal knowledge management The average person goes that's not for me That sounds like some weird dorky geek thing Whereas note-taking it's incredible how deep in our culture note-taking is The word note in English is among the 2% oldest English words. I didn't know that that's amazing Okay, isn't that wild? It's it's ancient. It's an ancient word. It's not a technology thing and you know Comma place book the word comma place comes from ancient Greeks Some of the earliest writing like on Babylonian stone tablets are actually notes It's not like an essay. It's like how many bushels of wheat I had and then a running count of you know The bushels of wheat in my storehouse like 3 4,000 years ago so it's like something that is almost in our DNA It's in our culture. It's in schools. It's in families. It's in the way we think about About work about learning about reading so it's kind of a great introduction.
是的，我完全同意。我们看法一致。这很有趣。我喜欢记笔记的一点是，它让人们踏上了第一个台阶。你知道吗，如果我提到“建立第二大脑”和“个人知识管理”，普通人可能会说那不适合我，听起来像是奇怪又书呆子的东西。而记笔记在我们的文化中根深蒂固。英文中的“note”（笔记）这个词是2%最古老的英语词之一。我之前不知道，这太惊人了，不是吗？这简直太不可思议了。这是一个古老的词，不是科技化的东西。还有“commonplace book”（普通笔记本），这个词可以追溯到古希腊。最早期的一些写作，比如巴比伦石板上的内容，实际上就是笔记，不是文章，而是记载了我有多少蒲式耳的小麦以及我仓库里小麦的数量统计，这可以追溯到三四千年前。所以记笔记几乎是植根于我们的DNA中，它在我们的文化、学校、家庭以及我们思考工作、学习和阅读的方式中无处不在。所以它确实是一个很好的入门方式。
At the same time when I say note-taking It takes sometimes people a while to realize I'm talking about something totally different from what you've experienced in any other context It's just completely different. It's lifelong instead of just for like one semester one class It's digital and therefore networked and in the cloud and on different devices not just on you know a little notebook in your pocket It is highly collaborative not just for your own personal use It is surprising and unexpected not just like writing down what the teacher told you so pretty much on every dimension It is radically different from what we know And so there's kind of some pros and cons of the term note-taking.
同时，当我提到“笔记记法”时，有时需要一些时间让人们意识到我谈论的是完全不同于其他任何情况下的东西。它是完全不同的。这种笔记是一生持续的，而不仅仅是一个学期或一堂课。它是数字化的，因此可以联网、保存在云端、并在不同设备上使用，而不仅仅是你口袋里的小笔记本。它是高度协作的，而不仅仅是为了个人使用。它是令人惊讶和出乎意料的，而不仅仅是记下老师所说的话。所以从几乎每一个角度来看，它都是彻底不同于我们所知的。因此，“笔记记法”这个术语也有一定的优缺点。
Okay, it sounds like your approach to what you call note-taking is what I call note-making So I think we pretty much agree on this Despite all of the benefits that you just described most people are just Taking what I'll call mindless notes. Don't you agree?
好的，听起来你所说的“笔记记录”其实就是我所称的“笔记制作”。所以我认为我们在这方面基本上是一致的。尽管你刚才描述了这些好处，但大多数人其实还是在做我称之为“盲目笔记”的事情，你同意吗？
Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think is that? It's the legacy of school legacy of school you were told What to write down for what the test that the paper It was a punishment orientation if you don't these bad things will happen There was no assumption or even even possibility that what you were creating was a lifelong learning asset for a lifetime of learning and projects and Exploration and so I find a lot of what people have to do is unlearn they have to unlearn this Kind of just taking received authority what someone in authority told me to do when it comes to note-taking and they have to learn to listen to their intuition the word intuition and Resonance is all over this book Basically what I what I just discovered through teaching people and coaching people is you can't do this process analytically It's too energy intensive You know analysis is great the intellect is great, but it takes energy It's it's that critical you know prefrontal cortex that is very kind of um It's very rational but very energy intensive you have to use your emotions You have to use your somatic awareness.
好的。为什么会这样呢？这是学校教育的遗留问题。在学校里，你被告知该写什么、该记什么，为了考试和作业，而不服从则意味着惩罚。没有人会假设或鼓励你去创造一些能够支持终身学习和探索的东西。因此，我发现很多人必须“去学习所学”。他们必须从单纯接受权威指示中解脱出来，不再仅仅依赖于权威人士告诉他们该怎么做，尤其是在做笔记这件事情上。相反，他们需要学会倾听自己的直觉和内在共鸣。其实，我通过教人和辅导人们的过程中发现，这个过程是无法完全通过分析来实现的，因为分析需要大量的能量。虽然理性思考很好，大脑也很重要，但它消耗大量能量。理智是大脑前额叶皮质发挥作用的时候，它非常理性，但也非常耗能。因此，你必须使用你的情感和身体的感知能力。
You have to use your intuition You have to use something that is more bodily and more natural which again people are I mean our culture is all about Cut it especially smart people especially You know people who who love to learn were sort of cut off right here everything that happens below the neck is kind of not of interest Wow It's true that we're always trying to intellectualize things so much that we don't think about the massive impact that our emotions Our energy levels and all of these things as you say that haven't below that level. Yeah Um the way they impact all of our creative thinking or productivity all of our work really And despite the importance of these aspects we just ignore them basically um So there's definitely a need for a shift in mindset when it comes to collecting information Connecting the dots and then creating our own content going from that mindless note-taking That we've inherited from all of those years spent in school.
你必须用直觉，用一些更身体化、更自然的东西。然而，我们的文化，尤其是聪明人，特别是那些热爱学习的人，往往对此是视而不见的。我们对发生在脖子以下的一切似乎都不感兴趣。哇，我们确实总是过于关注理性思考，却忽略了情绪、能量等因素对我们的创造力、工作效率及所有工作的巨大影响。尽管这些方面十分重要，但我们基本上都忽视了它们。所以，在收集信息、连接各个点，以及创造我们自己的内容时，确实需要一种思维方式的转变。我们需要从学校里多年练就的机械记笔记方式中走出来。
We need to unlearn that and move on to something where we unshackle our creativity and our thinking Is that what inspired you to write the book that to help people shift their mindset? Yeah, and you know, this is where you you've largely pioneered I was starting to get interested in the stuff. I was getting into personal growth self-awareness emotions But I was at a point where I wasn't sure if it was okay to talk about am I getting in trouble? Are people gonna be freaked out? We have such this fear Again among intellectual smart people of woo woo So allergic to it right But I live in California and I had you know access to certain circles in LA and San Francisco You just can't avoid this if you spend enough time in California and I kind of My own life was taking me in that direction and so I felt this tension between my life and my work.
我们需要放弃旧的思维方式，转而追求一种能释放我们创造力和思维的方式。这是否是你写这本书、帮助人们转变思维的灵感来源？是的，你知道，你在这方面主要是开创者，而我那时开始对个人成长、自我意识、情感等感兴趣。但我处在一个不确定的阶段，不知道讨论这些话题是否合适，我是否会惹上麻烦，或是让人感到不安。在聪明的知识分子中，我们对这些模糊不清的东西有着深深的恐惧，对其极为排斥。然而，我生活在加利福尼亚，有机会接触到洛杉矶和旧金山的一些圈子。在加州生活久了，你无法避免接触这些思想。我的生活逐渐朝这个方向发展，因此我感受到工作与生活之间的这种张力。
But then you came along and you were able to say mindful productivity and you were able to talk about mental health You were able to balance these different elements in a way that gave me permission to do it So I feel like in that on that path I'm kind of following in your footsteps because you proved that people could handle it That they wanted it actually that in fact there's this overwhelming kind of need for it and demand for it Thank you so much because I've been really inspired by your way of thinking in public and of even writing in public The way that you use Twitter to just show your thoughts and Then use the feedback that you get from people to incorporate it into your articles and really Co-create your content with your audience has been a big source of inspiration for me.
但是，然后你出现了，你能够谈论正念生产力，也能够谈论心理健康。你能够平衡这些不同的元素，并以一种让我也敢于尝试的方式去做。所以我觉得在这条路上，我某种程度上是在追随你的脚步，因为你证明了人们是可以接受的。他们实际上渴望这种东西，甚至对此有很大的需求。非常感谢你，因为你在公众面前展现思维方式，甚至在公众面前进行写作的方式，真的给了我很大的启发。你通过Twitter分享自己的想法，然后利用人们的反馈将其融入到你的文章中，这种与观众共同创作内容的方式对我来说是一个重要的灵感来源。
So I'm glad that being a little bit more mindful of our mental health and Emotions is something that made its way to your work So I just love that we've been helping each other Even though again is the first time we're meeting in person So I'm very curious about the whole book writing process because Even though the building a second brain system is a proven very solid system You've had thousands of students use it so you know great and I do you know believe in it But it's a whole other kind of Project to write a book a proper book.
所以我很高兴，更多地关注我们的心理健康和情绪成为了你工作中的一部分。我喜欢我们一直在互相帮助，尽管这是我们第一次见面。我对整个写书的过程很好奇，因为即使"打造第二大脑"系统是一个经过验证的、非常稳固的系统，你已经有成千上万的学生使用过它，你也知道效果很好并相信它，但写书仍然是一个完全不同的项目。
So can you tell us a little bit more about how you applied your own system to write the book Did you just use it straight out of the box did you have to tweak it how did that work? I definitely absolutely used my own I had to in fact it was kind of the ultimate test Um, and there's this this funny thing where we've all heard the advice Oh, if you have a big challenge break it up into smaller steps everyone knows this we've all heard it Here's the issue the reason we don't do that generally the reason that that's even something we have to think about is When you break a big challenge into smaller pieces you then have to manage those pieces Right, that's more individual things to keep track of more details more steps more dependencies more you know. this thing depends on that thing so I kind of think in order to take that advice you need an external memory system You need a second brain And that's what I did I just got so so this one thing before that actually which is I'm always advising people To do small projects very small quick iterative projects short ones Don't do a six-month long thing where you're only going to learn something after six months Where you're only going to show something to someone after six months do one week two week micro projects.
所以，你能告诉我们更多关于你是如何运用自己的系统来写这本书的吗？你是直接使用它吗？还是需要做一些调整？这个过程是如何运作的呢？
我当然用了自己的系统，实际上不得不用它，这就像是对它的终极考验。有个有趣的现象，我们都听过这样的建议：如果遇到大挑战，就把它拆分成小步骤。每个人都知道这个建议，我们都听说过。但问题在于，我们往往未能这样做的原因是，当你把一个大挑战拆解成小部分时，你需要管理这些小部分。这意味着需要跟踪更多的独立事项、更多细节、更多步骤和更多依赖关系。因此，我觉得要想采用这个建议，你需要一个外部记忆系统，也就是一个“第二大脑”。这就是我所做的。
在这之前，我总是建议人们做小项目，非常小、快速的迭代项目，时间短的那种。不要去做一个长达六个月的大项目，而需要在六个月后才能学到东西或展示成果。相反，可以尝试做一两周的小型项目。
And then so some people come back and say well you wrote a book that's a four-year-long project You don't you know you're not following your own advice But it's almost like the reason you want to do small projects most of the time Is so you have the room and the flexibility to once in a while do a big project I think of it like a great work Everyone at least once in their life should even just try to do a like a big work a great like see what you're capable of Try to climb the mountain whether it's a literal like Mount Everest or writing a book or writing a play or Building a building it could be anything, but just like That's just one of the most precious things in life And so I'm able to write this book by the fact that in the other parts of my life I have you know these small projects There's probably also some things to say about the fact that when I look around me and at Encryfield be smart creative people who've done those kind of big projects Those big projects are actually building on top of a lot of smaller projects that they've done before right.
有些人回来问我，说你写了一本书，这可是一个长达四年的项目，你似乎没有遵循自己的建议。但事实上，大多数时候选择做小项目的原因是为了让自己有空间和灵活性去偶尔完成一个大项目。我把这个看作是一项伟大的事业。我认为每个人在一生中至少应该尝试一次做一些宏伟的事情，看看自己到底有多大的能耐。无论是爬真的像珠穆朗玛峰这样的高山，还是写书、写剧本或者建造建筑物，这都可以是任何事情，但同时也是生命中最珍贵的事物之一。我能完成这本书，正是因为在生活的其他部分，我专注于小项目的缘故。
另外，我看到周围那些聪明且有创造力的人，他们曾做过的大项目，实际上是建立在他们之前完成的许多小项目之上的。
Um, I recently purchased an encyclopedia of psychoactive plants. It's a thousand pages long And all of it is basically a collection of the work of the author that they've done over many years before The photos are photos that they took over many many years It's not photos that they took specifically when writing this yeah, and I imagine that for you for writing the book You didn't just sit down in front of a blank page and when like Hmm, what am I going to write about you had all of this work and Instead of Building on the shoulders of other giants. You'd kind of built on the shoulders of your own previous work It's so true.
嗯，我最近买了一本关于致幻植物的百科全书。这本书有一千页，基本上是作者多年来研究工作的合集。书中的照片是他们在许多年间拍摄的，而不是专门为写这本书而拍的。我想，对于你来说，写这本书时，并不是简单地坐在空白页前思考该写些什么，而是基于你所有的以前的工作成果。在某种程度上，你不是站在他人伟大成就的基础上，而是建立在你自己先前工作的基础上。这的确是这样。
Yeah, it's it's so funny because you know, I'm a first-time author First-time author. Okay, you know, that sounds like oh, I just decided, you know one day Recently to be an author but the manuscript that Became this book is the eighth version? It's the eighth version of this manuscript going back almost five years Before that it was based on a course that's been taken by over 5,000 people So that's almost like another 5,000 kind of validations And then before that and along like kind of in parallel. I've self-published nine ebooks So first time and yet so many time right? It's like yeah, you keep laddering up you keep making a bunch of small blocks combine them into Medium-sized block combined many medium-sized block into a big one and that's how you de-risk it Like I would I cannot fathom spending four years of my life with this as my central focus like four years of my peak productive years, you know for like it's 10% of my life. I've been working on this almost and I wouldn't do that unless I had had.
哈哈，这真的很有趣，因为你知道，我是第一次成为作者。第一次成为作者，好吧，你知道，听起来好像我最近某天突然决定要成为作者，但实际那本书的手稿已经是第八个版本了。这个手稿从差不多五年前就开始了。在此之前，它是基于一个有超过5000人参加的课程。所以这就像有了将近5000次验证。而且与此类似并行的是，我自费出版了九本电子书。所以虽然说是第一次，但实际上已经有多次经验了。这就像是你不断地把小块积木搭建起来，组合成中等大小的积木，再把很多中等大小的积木组合成一个大的积木，这样就能降低风险。我简直无法想象把我四年的时间以此为中心来专注在这上面，四年是我最黄金的时间段的一个10%，我几乎用在了这上面。如果没有那些基础，我是不会这样做的。
Validation and proof all along the way every little micro step that it works that it's effective that it Impacts people and then ultimately the book will be successful. I need I need almost a guarantee before I'm going to commit to all that I love this. It's basically it's a rate of creativity as a guarantee for success I think a lot of people could use that and I think it also makes it less daunting, right? A lot of creators are asking themselves where do I start and they Try and go for the big project. Yes, right away. Yes, but by doing it the way you're doing it is just instead of having this big mountain You can take little steps. Yes, see where it goes and whenever you're ready you can take the next step And then all of those steps are still here when you're finally ready for timing your own mount Everest.
在整个过程中对每个微小步骤进行验证和证明，确保其有效性和影响力，最终这本书会成功。在我投入这一切之前，我几乎需要一个保证。我喜欢这一点，这基本上是将创造力转化为成功的保证。我认为很多人可能会需要这种思路，它也使得创作过程不那么令人生畏。很多创作者会问自己从哪里开始，他们通常会直接投入到大型项目中。但是，通过你这种方式，就不会有那种如山的大压力。你可以一步一步来，看看进展如何，然后在你准备好的时候再进行下一步。这样，当你真正准备好去攀登自己的“珠穆朗玛峰”时，之前所有的步骤都已经准备好在那里了。
That's the key is it has to exist in concrete form right Because it's like when you go back even to I think these are building blocks Which I also call intermediate packets I go to some of them. I'm sure this happens to you even from like six months ago. I'm like Wow, I don't remember hardly any of these details. I could never Recreate this piece of writing now even though I still kind of know it It's like how I think of it is like each stage of your journey has a unique kind of value The later stages of your journey are not better than the early stages in fact There's put there's certain benefits and and things about the early stages of my journey. I miss I wish I had savored I wish I had appreciated instead of just passing the time and trying to get to the next stage, right?
关键在于它必须以具体的形式存在。因为这就像是回顾过去时，即使我认为这些是构建块，我也称之为中间过程。我会回顾其中一些。我肯定这也发生在你身上，即使是六个月前的事情，我也几乎不记得任何细节。即使我还算记得这个作品，我也无法再创作出相同的文字。对我而言，旅程的每个阶段都有其独特的价值。后期阶段并不比早期阶段更好。事实上，早期旅程中有些好处和事情是我怀念的。我希望自己当时能细细品味，珍惜当下，而不是匆匆忙忙只想着进入下一个阶段。
You don't realize like let's say you're just starting to write you can try anything You have nothing to lose You can say whatever you want on any subject no one has any expectations of you do Know what kind of freedom that is like I'm jealous of that And so the key I think is really that it's external in a trusted place That you can find it and also I think it has to be somewhat in public Right like building blocks in your notes in your private storehouse are just not the same as something like I said That's been validated you know proven along the way by other minds other human minds are like the ultimate test right Is Working learning Creating in public something that is absolutely core to the building of sick and brain method I think it is it just depends what you mean by public.
你可能没有意识到，比如说，当你刚开始写作时，你可以尝试任何事情。你没有什么可失去的，可以在任何主题上随心所欲地表达自己的想法，没有人对你有任何期待。你知道这种自由有多么珍贵吗？我对此非常羡慕。所以，我认为关键在于，这种自由是存在于一个受信任的外部环境中的，你可以找到它。而且，我认为这种环境需要具有一定的公众性质。就像我之前说的，你的私人笔记库中的想法积木，和那些在过程中被他人验证过的想法并不一样。其他人的想法就是一种终极考验。公开地工作、学习、创造是建立"第二大脑"方法的核心，我认为关键在于你如何定义“公开”。
You know for a lot of people sharing sharing it with one other person Counts that's the public that's someone else It's someone that is going to tell you their opinion It's someone that forces you to communicate it succinctly It's someone's going to add their own ideas right and that might be terrifying In fact, it probably is the first time you share your work you're writing whatever it is with another person But then it can expand from there start with one person But then it can be your team it can be your family start with people that are going to be relatively favorable And then over time you You build your courage and then actually over time you seek the people that are going to be most critical right.
对于很多人来说，把某件事告诉另一个人已经算是公开分享了。那是一个可以给你意见的人，一个迫使你简洁表达的人，也是一个可能会加入自己想法的人。这可能会让人感到恐惧，尤其是在你第一次与他人分享你的作品或写作时。然而，从一个人开始沟通，然后再逐步扩展。最初可以与你的团队或家人分享，选择那些相对来说会给你正面反馈的人。随着时间的推移，你会建立起勇气，最终甚至会主动寻求那些会给你最严厉批评的人。
Just I think of it like concentric circles you just keep expanding expanding expanding until You just build enough self-confidence and enough courage And enough willingness to be proven wrong that you want the biggest possible audience Who's going to be the most critical because that's just going to accelerate your rate of learning the most This is exactly what I did with my own audience My newsletter used to be omnikoliks former colleagues from my previous job and little by little I opened up and let other people join There was something so reassuring and freeing at the beginning and knowing that Everyone on my mailing list Where people I knew who were just going to be kind to me And on the ones I felt ready to get a little bit Like harsher criticism.
我把它想象成同心圆，不断地扩展、扩展、再扩展，直到你建立足够的自信、足够的勇气和足够的意愿去接受错误。这样你就能迎接最大、最批判的观众，因为他们会最快地加速你的学习速度。这正是我对待自己观众的方式。我的新闻通讯从原来的同事开始，慢慢地，我逐步开放给其他人参与。一开始的时候，知道邮件列表上的每个人都是我认识的人，他们都很友好，这种感觉很安慰、很解放。而当我准备好时，我也欢迎一些更严格的批评。
I could open it up So I think there's something really important in what you just said here. just going to reiterate it for people watching But if you are hesitating and you don't know where to start an audience of one is still an audience So start sharing your work even if it's just your best friend for now That's the first baby step that you can take to start building your audience online Couldn't agree more okay, so let's make this a little bit more interesting because I know that we agree on a lot of things But this one thing we've been recently debating together and we have slightly different opinions on And this is the note-taking archetypes.
我可以展开这个话题，所以我认为你刚才说的话非常重要，我想再强调一下给观众们听。如果你犹豫不决，不知道从哪里开始，记住，即使只有一个观众也是观众。因此，即便只是和你最好的朋友分享你的作品，也是迈出建立线上观众的第一步。我完全同意这个观点。
那么，让我们把这个话题变得更有趣一些，因为虽然我们在很多事情上都意见一致，但最近我们在一个问题上有些不同的看法，那就是关于记笔记的不同类型。
So last year I came up with three different archetypes for the kind of personality that people have No taking style that people have and these are the architect the gardener and the librarian And very recently you posted on twitter That's where all of the debates happen That you thought that one archetype was missing and you added a fourth one I'm not going to say which one because I'll let you explain and we can talk about it Can you tell us more Yeah, yeah, so the archetypes um By the way, this is such a great example of how the internet works because you tweeted that I'm guessing It took minutes for you to come up with or I don't know maybe you thought about it for a couple days That we took that made our own changes made our modifications that has become a central pillar of our business.
去年，我提出了三种不同的人格类型，分别是建筑师、园丁和图书管理员，代表人们的性格和行为方式。不久前，你在推特上发文，认为还缺少一种类型，于是你添加了第四种。我不会说是哪一种，因为我想让你来解释，然后我们可以一起讨论。你能多说一点吗？
当然，关于这些人格类型，这其实是一个很好的例子，说明互联网的运作方式。因为你发表的那条推文，我猜你可能只花了几分钟，也可能考虑了几天。而我们基于这个想法，进行了自己的修改和调整，现在这已经成为我们业务的一个核心支柱。
We now use it in our in our course to basically categorize people to split them into groups It's become like the onboarding flow to our whole program which is is kind of wild I wouldn't have come up with it. I needed to see it the second I saw it I thought oh this is it she got it she nailed it except I had that one So basically briefly in my own understanding um architect Once to create the ultimate system they want the all-encompassing Framework that everything can be fit into just like a building just like an architect will make you know a giant blueprint Of how everything fits together The gardener is kind of the opposite they want to you kind of explore and discover and plant all these little idea Seedlings and watch them sprout and grow and interconnect and they're just like in wonder and full of imagination And everything is very bottom up um the librarian Which is the archetype that I associate with uh is about Sort of collecting capturing for many different sources Organizing it somewhat but focused kind of like on research or on like specific projects or specific things They're trying to learn so in a way they're kind of in between the other two.
我们现在将其用于我们的课程中，基本上是为了对人进行分类，以便将他们分成不同的组。它已经成为整个项目的加入流程，这有点不可思议，我自己不会想到这一点。当我第一次看到它时，我就意识到它太棒了，她完全领悟到其中的精髓。简单来说，在我的理解中，所谓"建筑师"是为了创造一种终极系统，他们希望建立一个无所不包的框架，可以将一切纳入其中，就像建筑师会设计一张巨大的蓝图，详细展示所有事物如何协调在一起。而"园丁"则完全相反，他们希望通过探索和发现，种植想法的小种子，看着它们发芽、生长、相互连接，他们充满惊奇和想象，一切都是自下而上的。至于"图书管理员"，这是我与之相关的原型，主要在于从不同的来源收集和捕捉信息，进行一定程度的组织，侧重于研究、具体项目或特定的学习内容。从某种程度上来说，他们介于前两者之间。
Uh, and the one I added is student is student and the reason I think We wanted to add one is sort of as a catch-all really it's for all the people who thought The three others were too complicated who said I'm just trying to like read a grocery list I'm just trying to like write down a few quotes. I just want to I don't know jot something down on my phone I don't even have a computer in some cases which is surprising So we kind kind of created this miscellaneous category We wanted it to be very approachable and accessible so we said student not like a student in school But a student of life a student of learning um, and so that became our four archetypes.
呃，我加的这个类别是“学生”。我认为我们想加这个类别，是为了作为一个包罗万象的选项。主要是为了那些觉得其他三个类别太复杂的人，比如那些只是想简单看个购物清单，或者写下几句引言的人。也有一些人可能只是想在手机上记点东西，甚至有些人连电脑都没有，这点还挺让人惊讶的。所以我们创建了这么一个杂项类别。我们希望它能非常平易近人，容易使用，所以我们称之为“学生”。这里的“学生”不是指学校里的学生，而是生活的学生、学习的学生。于是，这就成为了我们的四种原型之一。
But don't you think that all I told you I was going to disagree Don't you think that all of the other ones are also students because in their own ways Whether you study through building a system or through tending to your garden or through organizing your library Ultimately you are a student of life. It's true And it's it's honestly a little confusing for people because they think oh well I'm not in school I already graduated so I guess I'm not a student when in fact sometimes It's the people who are not in school and thus or are the moat the furthest from school have the least familiarity with Technology and digital note-taking so ironically they are the most likely to be a student.
但你难道不觉得我告诉过你的所有事情都是我会不同意的吗？难道你不觉得其他人也是学生吗？因为他们都有自己的学习方式。无论你是通过构建一个系统、打理你的花园，还是整理你的图书馆来学习，归根结底，你都是生活的学生。 这是真的。 人们往往会感到困惑，因为他们认为自己已经不在学校，已经毕业，所以就不算学生。但事实上，有时正是那些远离学校的人，对技术和数字化笔记不太熟悉，反而更容易成为生活的学生。
It's kind of confusing. You're totally right. You know, there was another motivation for us to add the student, which is what I'm trying to do with my book. Maybe the number one goal is to introduce people to knowledge management who have never heard of it. That's like a bridge. It's like I'm an ambassador from the world of digital note-taking. Those of us who nerd out about it spend all our time or a lot of time thinking about it to people like, you know, I always think of my parents, my parents who just don't care. They're just trying to like solve basic problems in their life and lead a good life, right?
这有点让人困惑。你说的完全对。你知道吗，我们加入这位学生还有另一个原因，这也是我写这本书想要达到的目的之一。也许首要目标就是向那些从未听说过知识管理的人介绍这个概念。这就像一座桥梁。我就像是来自数字笔记世界的一个大使。我们这些对这方面非常感兴趣的人会花很多时间去思考它，而对于我父母这样的人，他们并不关心这些。他们只是想解决生活中的基本问题，并过上好日子，对吧？
So the student is kind of like I said, it's a miscellaneous catch all. Like if anything I'm saying is overwhelming, think of yourself as a student. You're just an obvious learner. So then we just sort of like put you in this fourth category, which is kind of a miscellaneous group. Oh, I think I have a way to align the way you're thinking about it, but the way I'm thinking about it, I would not see the student as a fourth category, but I would see it as an entry point into one of the other three categories. So with the way you're describing it for me, a student in your way of dividing those groups is someone who hasn't figured out their archetype yet.
所以，学生这一类，就像我说的，是个综合的集合。如果我说的内容让你感到有些负担，就把自己想象成一个学生，你就是一个明显的学习者。然后我们就把你放到这个第四类中，这是一个综合的小组。不过，我觉得我有办法把你的思维方式调整一下，但在我的理解中，我不会把学生视为第四类，而是将其视为进入其他三类之一的切入点。按照你描述的方法，对于我来说，你所划分的群体中的学生是指那些还没有确定自己定位的人。
That's true. So that's why that's the way I would do it. It's interesting because in the original article that I published where for the first time I coined those three different archetypes, I did have at the very end of it a list of tools that for me don't fit any of them. So for the archetypes I mentioned Rome, Obsidian, Logseq, like these types of network thinking apps for gardeners. Notion is something that I mentioned for architects because it's a lot more structured, very helpful for systems, and I mentioned Evernote for librarians. And at the very end of the article, as I was saying, I mentioned that some people they only use Apple Notes or Google Keep, and that it's fine, but that it's not really fitting any of the other archetypes.
这是真的，这就是为什么我会这样做的原因。有趣的是，在我首次发表的文章中，我提出了三种不同的原型。在文章的结尾，我列出了对我来说不属于任何一种原型的工具。例如，我提到了一些适合"园丁"的网络思维应用，如 Rome、Obsidian、Logseq。而对于"建筑师"，我提到了 Notion，因为它结构化程度更高，非常有助于系统化管理。此外，我提到了适合"图书管理员"的 Evernote。在文章的最后，我还提到有些人只使用 Apple Notes 或 Google Keep，这当然没问题，但它们确实不符合上述的任何一种原型。
I think a lot of the people that are going to read your book, they're probably going to be in that category. But if they want to start applying the principles of your book and they want to really start to capture, organize, distill, and express their ideas, they will naturally at some point want to upgrade their system. And they will find that Apple Notes and Google Keep are not enough, and they'll want to supplement that very kind of like mindless quick capturing system with something that is a bit more thoughtful. Do you agree?
我认为很多会读你这本书的人，可能都属于这个类别。但是，如果他们想开始应用书中的原则，真正开始捕捉、组织、提炼和表达自己的想法，他们自然会在某个时候想要升级他们的系统。他们会发现，Apple Notes和Google Keep这样的工具不够用，他们会想要用一些更深思熟虑的工具来补充这些快速记录的系统。你同意吗？
I think you're right. You know, I wish I could say, yeah, Apple Notes. You know, if you think about Apple Notes, it's probably by far, along with just the other default notes apps on Android or whatever, the most dominant note-taking app in the world because it's on every single one of the 1.5 billion iOS devices. I wish that that was enough. I wish that you could just, oh yeah, stick it—it's like the digital equivalent of like a sticky note pad, right? But you're right, it's not enough. It's enough for capture, and in fact, it might be a really good initial capture solution because it's so frictionless and because people are already doing it.
我觉得你说得对。你知道，我希望我能说，是的，Apple Notes。你想想，Apple Notes 可能是全世界最主流的记事应用之一，与 Android 或其他系统的默认记事应用一起，因为它安装在所有15亿台iOS设备上。我希望这已经足够了。我希望你只需这样做—就像一个数字版的便利贴，对吧？但你说得对，这还不够。它足够用来抓取信息，事实上，由于它操作简单、人们已经习惯，所以它可能是非常好的初步信息捕捉工具。
Right, like I find if someone is even say keeping a grocery list, that is like the seed. You can be like, oh grocery right next to the grocery list, just hit the plus and create a new note and write down a quote that you heard. This is mostly what I spend my time thinking about these days is the on ramp. How small can we make the steps? How easy of a curve can that be? But I think you're absolutely right. You need a more sophisticated solution if this is really going to qualify as your second brain.
好的，我发现即使有人只是保持一个购物清单，这也像是一个种子。你可以贴着购物清单写，点击加号，创建一个新笔记，写下你听到的一个引用。这些天我大部分时间思考的都是这种入门方式。我们能把步骤做得多小？那个曲线能有多简单？不过我认为你说得非常对，如果这个要真正称得上是你的第二大脑，那么你需要一个更复杂的解决方案。
Your second brain—that's a high bar. That is it, that's an achievement. It's something quite powerful, and it needs a sophisticated piece of software. Exactly, because when you think about a second brain, just even your first brain, it's not only about adding information to your memory. It's about being able to recall it, to make connections, and to be able to then create your own output from that input that you added to it. And obviously, anything like Apple Notes or Google Keep is not going to be able to do that.
你的第二大脑——那可是个很高的目标。这是一种成就，也是一种相当强大的能力，需要复杂的软件支持。确实如此，因为当你想到第二大脑时，甚至仅仅是你的第一个大脑，它不只是把信息添加到你的记忆中。更重要的是能够回忆这些信息，建立联系，然后能够根据输入的信息创造出自己的输出。而显然，像Apple Notes或Google Keep这样的应用程序是无法做到这一点的。
It's almost like a short-term slash working memory tool. Yes, that's just able to help you in the moment to get a task done, but that's not going to help you with long-term creative projects. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's one piece of the solution. I always have to repeat this endlessly that your second brain is not one piece of software. Because if you think that you're going to look for the silver bullet, you're going to look for the one magical solution, it's really this ecosystem. It's this constellation.
这几乎就像一个短期的工作记忆工具。是的，它能在当下帮助你完成任务，但无法帮助你实现长期的创意项目。没错，没错。对，这只是解决方案的一部分。我总是要不断反复强调，你的“第二大脑”不是某一个软件。如果你认为会找到一个万能的灵丹妙药，那么你会找错方向。真正的解决方案是在于一个生态系统，一种集合。
You know, even you who are really quite dedicated to Rome as your second brain, that's really just the centerpiece of your second brain. You have these other supplementary tools and habits and even a bookmark that you coded with JavaScript that sort... of they're like these These accessories to your second brain absolutely and I do still use Google keep right so I I do agree that you can't really rely on just one tool Obviously you need to avoid the shiny toy syndrome I'm having a lot of different tools and making it overly complicated and where your Creatives system paradoxically gets into the way of your creativity Yes, but very often you will need different tools for different kind of jobs. Yeah, it's very true
你知道，即使你对 Rome（作为你的第二大脑）相当忠诚，那也只是你第二大脑的核心部分而已。你还有其他一些辅助工具和习惯，甚至还有一个用 JavaScript 编写的书签，这些工具就像是你的第二大脑的配件。我确实仍然使用 Google Keep，所以我同意不能仅仅依赖一种工具。显然，你需要避免“新玩具综合症”，避免使用太多不同的工具让系统过于复杂，这样反而妨碍创造力。但实际上，你经常需要不同的工具来处理不同的任务。这是非常准确的。
So just to recap your journey You went from hating taking notes absolutely hating it To now having a whole second brain that you've used to write a book which is not a small feat, right What advice would you give to people who are just getting started the kind of people who in the way you're you're framing it our students or in my way Are still trying to figure out what their archetype is they're very new to this. They don't really know where to start What advice would you give to these people? You have a couple things so first.
所以，让我们回顾一下你的旅程：你从非常讨厌做笔记，到现在拥有了一个“第二大脑”——你用它写了一本书，这是一个不小的成就，对吧？那么，你会给那些刚起步的人什么建议呢？这些人可能在你的描述中是学生，或者在我看来，是那些还在努力弄清自己的原型、对这一切都还很陌生的人。他们真的不知道从哪里开始。你有什么建议给他们吗？首先，这里有几点建议：
I'll say what to not do don't Say I'm gonna stop everything and I'm just gonna spend Weeks months years creating the perfect system and then I will learn and then I will write and then I will create and then I will present Publish build whatever that means for you Instead the way I think of this is like you know what you know what is actually the hard part about taking notes leading an interesting life That is actually the hard part Right if you don't have an interesting life you have nothing to take notes on if you are leading an interesting life And I think you are everyone watching this is leading an interesting life I mean aren't you aren't you traveling places meeting people learning new things aren't you curious Aren't you interesting aren't you intellectual aren't you multifaceted of course you are
我来告诉你不该做什么：不要说“我要暂停一切，花几个星期、几个月甚至几年去创造一个完美的系统，然后我才会学习、写作、创作，最后再展示、发表或构建，等等。”相反，我认为关键在于要过一个有趣的生活。这才是真正困难的部分。如果你的生活不够有趣，你就没有东西可以记录。但如果你正在过一个有趣的生活——我相信你是的，正在阅读这篇文章的你们都是——难道你们不是在旅行、结识新朋友、学习新知识吗？你们难道不感到好奇吗？你们不是很有趣吗？你们不具多重才能吗？当然，你们都是这样的。
So you're already doing in some way like 90% you're living the life worth taking notes on All I'm saying is to just add a little 10% and wait to do this you know over the 15 years I've been doing this I looked recently my average rate of note-taking is two notes per day Wow, that's it two notes per day and a note is small it can be one sentence one quote one Image one bookmark. It's one little just snip it so start with one. Okay. I'll give you a easy 50% level And see if you can for 30 days. I think this is the critical mass for 30 days try to just take one note per day No minimum size At the end of those 30 days look at the inbox or the daily notes or whatever the capture tool is Look at the some collection of those 30 or more notes and tell me just try to tell me That there is not valuable knowledge valuable expertise Things that could really impact people's lives things that could solve problems in society Things that could solve problem for people you know I dare you to tell me that.
你已经在过的生活中有90%是值得记录的。我只是建议你再增加10%的记录内容。在过去15年中，我发现自己平均每天记录两条笔记。是的，就是每天两条，这两条笔记可以是一个句子、一句名言、一张图片或一个书签，非常简单的小片段。所以，从写一条笔记开始吧。我给你一个简单的方法：尝试连续30天每天写一条笔记，不设定最小字数。完成这30天后，查看你的收件箱、每日笔记或其他记录工具，看看这些30条或更多的笔记。我敢说，你会发现其中充满了有价值的知识和见解，这些可以改变生活、解决社会问题、帮助他人的内容。我敢挑战你说这里面没有价值。
I'm sure that you'll once you see it outside your head You're gonna be amazed at just how much happens in just a single month of your life That's beautiful and I agree with you everyone is living a life worth taking notes about Thank you so much chaggo I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did chaggo where can people find more about your book You can find out everything you need to know at building a second brain.com Thank you. We'll put the link in the description so you can just click on that have a look order it read it I read it and it's amazing trust me.
我相信，当你把头脑中想象的东西展示出来时，你会感到惊讶，仅仅一个月，你的生活中就会发生那么多的事情。那真是太美好了，我同意你的观点，每个人的生活都值得记录。非常感谢你，Chaggo。希望你跟我一样享受了这个过程。Chaggo，人们可以在哪里了解你的书呢？你可以在buildingasecondbrain.com找到所有你需要的信息。谢谢，我们会把链接放在描述中，你可以点击查看、订购、阅读。我读过这本书，真的很棒，相信我。
Okay chaggo bear with me. It's a bit weird But I finished all of my videos with this little brain here and I go squishy squishy on camera And since you're the first guest on the channel, I want you to do it So go ahead and you have to just go like this and go squishy squishy Okay This feels like it's such an honor. I love this brain. This is a perfectly sized and shaped brain You guys you guys ready here we go
好的，请耐心一点。这有点奇怪，但我在每个视频结束时都会拿着这个小脑袋对着摄像头捏一捏。因为你是频道的第一个嘉宾，所以我想让你来试试。所以请你这样做，对着摄像头捏一捏，说“捏捏”。好的，这感觉真是个荣幸。我喜欢这个脑袋，它的大小和形状非常合适。准备好了吗？我们开始吧。