Inside monday.com’s transformation: Radical transparency, impact over output, & the path to $1B ARR
发布时间 2025-04-27 11:00:36 来源
A great plan, basically for me, is someone that is relentless until he gets this impact, until he validates that this impact is in place. In some cases, doing the biggest impact is not developing another feature. It's about making the current value more accessible. Even at this for eight years, you said there's 250,000 customers at this point. What would you say is the most counterintuitive thing you've learned through this journey of building Monday? We really have a bit in the poach of very radical transparency about everything. Before we went public, we actually shared every bit of information with our employees. Instead of demoralizing people, I think that this is something that gives them a sense of deep partnership. We really want everyone's brains in the challenge and not just one centralized brain in a lot of working hands.
一个很好的计划，基本上对我来说，就是一个人在获得影响之前不懈努力，直到他确认这个影响已经到位。在某些情况下，产生最大影响力并不是开发另一个新功能，而是让现有的价值更易于获取。你说这个已经做了八年，现在有25万用户。你认为在建立Monday的过程中，你学到的最出乎意料的事情是什么？我们在所有事情上都非常坚持极端透明的做法。在我们上市之前，我们实际上与员工分享了所有信息。我认为这不是让人泄气的事情，相反，它给了他们一种深度合作的感觉。我们真的希望每个人的头脑都参与到挑战中，而不仅仅是一个集中的大脑在指挥许多执行者。
You basically realized that your competitors were shipping a lot faster than you were. That made you shift the way you think about product and the way you operate. Some of our competitors did something that we can only imagine we said, okay, we need to treat it differently. We received a gift from our competitors. They showed us that it's possible. You do competition, know it and take it and set ambitious goals and believe in yourself and you can do amazing things. Today, my guest is Daniel Aureia. Daniel's currently chief product and technology officer at Monday.com. He joined when they were just around 40 employees. A few years in, Daniel and the executive realized that their competitors were able to move a lot faster than they were and ship a lot more often than they were. That spurred a transformation in how they build and operate their teams.
你的意思基本上是你意识到竞争对手的产品发布速度比你们快很多。 这促使你改变了对产品的看法和运营方式。有些竞争对手做了我们只能想象的事情，我们对自己说，好吧，我们需要以不同的方式对待它。我们的竞争对手给了我们一个礼物，他们向我们展示了这是可能的。你进行竞争，认识它，接受它，设定有雄心的目标，相信自己，你就能成就惊人的事情。今天，我的嘉宾是Daniel Aureia。 Daniel目前担任Monday.com的首席产品及技术官。他加入公司时，公司只有大约40名员工。 几年之后，Daniel和管理层意识到，他们的竞争对手能够比他们更快地行动，并更频繁地发布产品。 这促使他们在团队建设和运营方式上进行了变革。
Very few companies are able to transform like this and even fewer recognize that something is wrong. In our conversation, Daniel shares a bunch of very specific insights and suggestions into how to go about making change or even recognizing that something is wrong. Daniel shares moments when it felt like everything was going to crumble. Why it's important to know that the skills that got you to where you are today aren't the skills that are going to take you to the next level. Why it's so important to orient all your teams around impact and so much more. Vindray this podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year-free of paid accounts at superhuman, linear, notion, granola, and perplexity pro. Check it out at Lenny's newsletter.com and click bundle. With that, I bring you Daniel Aureia.
很少有公司能够进行这样的转变，甚至更少有公司能意识到某些问题的存在。在我们的对话中，Daniel分享了很多具体的见解和建议，关于如何进行变革，甚至是识别问题。他分享了一些瞬间，让人感到一切都要崩溃了。了解支撑你走到今天的技能并不能带你迈向更高的层次，这是为什么这一点如此重要的原因，以及为什么把所有团队的目标都集中在影响力上如此重要。关注这个播客。别忘了在你常用的播客应用或YouTube上订阅和关注。此外，如果你成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅者，你将获得一年免费的superhuman、linear、notion、granola和perplexity pro的付费账户。详情请访问Lenny's newsletter.com并点击bundle。在这里，我为大家介绍Daniel Aureia。
This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret unifies all your customer interactions from gong calls to zen des tickets to Twitter threads to app store reviews and makes it available for analysis. It's trusted by leading product orgs like Canva, Notion, Lume, linear, Monday.com and Strava to bring the voice of the customer into the product development process, helping you build best-in-class products faster. What makes Interpret special is its ability to build and update customer specific eye models that provide the most granular and accurate insights into your business. Connect customer insights to revenue and operational data in your CRM or data warehouse to map the business impact of each customer need and prioritize confidently.
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That's why AirTable built product central after decades of working with world-class product companies. Think of it as mission control for your entire product organization. Unlike rigid point solutions, product central powers everything, from resourcing to voice of customer, to road mapping, to launch execution. And because it's built on AirTable's no-code platform, you can customize every workload to match exactly how your team works. No limitations, no compromises. Ready to see it in action? Head to airtable.com-slash-lennie to book a demo. That's airtable.com-slash-lennie.
这就是为什么AirTable在与世界一流的产品公司合作数十年后，建立了“产品中心”。可以把它想象成你整个产品组织的任务控制中心。与僵化的单点解决方案不同，产品中心可以支持从资源分配到客户反馈、路线规划到产品发布执行的所有需求。而且因为它是基于AirTable的无代码平台，你可以根据团队的工作方式自定义每一个工作流程，没有限制，也无需妥协。准备好亲自体验一下吗？请访问 airtable.com-slash-lennie 预约演示，即可体验。网址是 airtable.com-slash-lennie。
Daniel, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. We're going to get into the story of Monday. We're going to talk about your journey over the last eight years, building and scaling this company, all things you've learned along the way. But I want to start with a very specific moment that you shared with me, where you basically realized that your competitors were shipping a lot faster than you were able to get stuff out a lot more quickly and more often than you guys. And that made you shift the way you think about product and the way you operate. Can you talk about that moment and that lesson and which you took away from that?
丹尼尔，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎参加我们的播客。谢谢你邀请我。我们将深入探讨关于Monday的故事，聊聊你在过去八年中是如何建立和扩大这间公司的，以及一路上你所学到的东西。但我想从一个非常具体的时刻开始聊起，就是你曾和我分享的一个时刻，当时你突然意识到你的竞争对手能比你们更快地推出产品，更加频繁地发布更新。这让你改变了对产品的思考方式和运营方式。你能谈谈这一时刻和你从中学到的经验吗？
Yeah, well, you take me a while back, you know, I think it was when we were relatively a small team. I think we were something around like 30 people and you know, including engineers and product and everyone. It's actually that back in the days, we did so many things and actually we had an amazing, amazing execution where the, you know, weekly update, which would share everything that we did with the company. I mean, it was always, always, you know, super long and super like with so many different things. And we really felt good about ourselves at that point, to be honest, about the execution.
是的，你让我回忆到很久以前，那时候我们团队还比较小。我记得大概有30人左右，包括工程师、产品人员等等。其实在那段日子里，我们做了很多事情，执行力非常出色。每周的更新中，我们会向公司分享我们做的所有事情。可以说这些更新总是非常详细，覆盖了很多不同的内容。坦率地说，那时候我们对自己的执行力感到非常满意。
And then I remember one day, you know, coming to the office and just looking on one of our competitors and with Monday, we have like one of the main things that we have in the product is our boards. It's like the heart and soul of the product. And it's, you can think about it as a table and it has different column types, data types that you can capture within the board and work with. And you know, back then we had five of these and I was actually coding the sixth one to be honest. And each and every one of these, like took us like four months to develop, you know, together with defining the products and everything.
有一天，我记得我来到办公室，看着我们的一家竞争对手。我们在Monday这个产品中最重要的功能之一就是我们的看板，它是产品的核心所在。你可以把它想象成一个表格，里面有不同类型的列，可以记录和处理不同类型的数据。那时候，我们已经有五种这样的列，我实际上正在开发第六种。每种列的开发都需要大约四个月的时间，包括产品的定义和其他所有的工作。
And at this morning, we actually saw that one of our main competitors back then is actually launched 30 new columns. 30. Yeah. And you know, we said, okay, at first, we didn't really know what to do and you know, we fought about it. And I remember that even we said, okay, we're going to take even some time out of the office. So back then, Roy and Iran, which are the founders and also together with me and Tal, which is was one of the main tech leads in Monday for a long time. And a few others, we went outside the office and we said, listen, we need to do things differently. Something doesn't make sense.
今天早上，我们注意到我们当时的主要竞争对手之一竟然推出了30个新的栏目。30个。是的。起初我们不知道怎么应对，也为此纠结过。我记得我们甚至说，好吧，我们要暂时离开办公室。当时，Roy和Iran是公司的创始人，还有我和Tal，他很长一段时间都是Monday的主要技术负责人之一。我们和其他几个人一起走出办公室说，听着，我们需要换种做法。事情似乎不太对劲。
And you know, I remember back then that for me, this realization of a understanding that we are doing so much, but suddenly, some of our competitors did something that we can only imagine and actually transform the product because it's a different type of platform if you think about it. And it was really hard. Personally, first of all, admitting that although you walked like crazy, you didn't do something that really transformed the product because I remember back then when we did a conversation, we said, okay, we're doing so much. What is the most meaningful thing that we did over the last three months? And you know, suddenly the answer was, you know, there's so many things, but it wasn't something specific.
我记得那时，我突然意识到我们虽然做了很多事情，但有些竞争对手做了我们只能想象的事情，并且真正改变了他们的产品，因为严格来说，那是一个不同类型的平台。这对我来说真的很难接受。尤其是，首先得承认，虽然我们拼命工作，但并没有做出真正能改变产品的事情。我还记得那时我们进行了一次对话，我们问自己，好吧，我们做了这么多事，过去三个月里最有意义的事情是什么呢？结果发现有很多事情，但并没有哪一件特别显著。
And after like, you know, acknowledging that and you know, it's a very hard thing, personally, especially when you walk so hard and you put your entire heart in what you do, we said, okay, now we need to treat it differently. We received a gift for more competitors. They showed us that it's possible. Now we need to think how. And in order to do that, we need to think differently because remember, like we said, okay, if we are going to add 25 more multiplied by four months, we're a small team, we're lost, okay, we can't make it.
在承认这一点后，你知道，这确实很困难，尤其是当你投入全力努力工作，把整个心都倾注其中的时候。我们说，好吧，现在我们需要用不同的方式来对待它。我们收到了一个来自更多竞争者的“礼物”。他们向我们展示了这是可能的。现在，我们需要思考如何实现。为了做到这一点，我们需要改变思维方式。记住，我们曾说过，如果我们要在四个月内增加25个项目，我们这样的小团队就迷失了，我们无法做到。
So we said, okay, we need to take upon ourselves an ambitious girl like 25 columns in one month. And this is the girl that we took upon ourselves. And you know, I think that the fact that our competitors did it, gave us like, didn't give us the excuse of saying it's not possible. So in a way, it was the biggest favor that we can ask for. And you know, long story short, month and a half afterwards, we had 30 columns in Monday. And we did it, you know, by thinking totally different. And by the way, afterwards, you know, we did it over and over again.
所以我们说，好吧，我们需要给自己定一个有挑战性的目标，比如在一个月内完成25个专栏。这是我们为自己设定的目标。你知道，我觉得我们的竞争对手已经做到了这一点，这让我们没有借口说这不可能。所以从某种意义上说，这是我们能要求的最大帮助。长话短说，一个半月之后，我们在周一完成了30个专栏。而且我们是通过完全不同的思维方式来实现的。顺便说一下，此后我们一次又一次地做到这一点。
So if you think about Monday, it's basically a platform for work and you have different building blocks. Columns is one of them, but we did the same drill exactly with a dashboard and widgets and then with automations and so on. So I think this was so transformative because a, when the students, you need to constantly think, especially at these phases, how would you transform completely the product in the next three months? And if you can't answer that and you say, listen, I'm doing so much thing, but you can't point this exact thing. You have a focus problem in my eyes.
所以，如果你想想Monday，它基本上是一个工作的平台，其中有各种构建模块。列就是其中之一，但我们也用同样的方法处理仪表板和小工具，以及自动化等。我认为这非常具有变革性，因为在这样的阶段，作为学生，你需要不断思考如何在接下来的三个月中彻底改变产品。如果你无法回答这个问题，只能说我做了很多事情，却不能指出具体的内容，那么在我看来，你就存在一个专注度的问题。
And second, that is that, you know, put ambitious goals, it will make you think differently. And you know, we really love now to do it, even with when we don't know it's possible. And it actually like works for us time of the time. Last thing about it, you know, the team that was there suddenly became invincible because, you know, it's such an amazing, amazing experience that you have a goal that you don't know how you're going to do it and you succeed. And then it makes you feel that everything is possible.
其次，要设定雄心勃勃的目标，这会让你以不同的方式思考。即使在我们不知道是否可能的情况下，我们仍然很喜欢这样做，而且每次这样做都确实给我们带来了成效。最后，还有一点，当团队面对这样的挑战时，他们会变得无坚不摧，因为能够有一个不知道如何实现的目标并最终成功，是一种非常奇妙的体验。这会让你觉得一切皆有可能。
There's so much here and I have so many threads I want to follow on one is just there's the kind of there's as a metaphor of the four-minute mile where no one thought it was possible. And then so and did it and then everyone started beating that record. So I like that this is highlighting there's just so much power and seeing somebody else accomplish something you thought was impossible and then locks the way you think.
这里有太多内容，我有很多想要追寻的线索。首先，有一个比喻类似于四分钟一英里的故事，当时没有人认为可以做到这一点。然后有人成功了，接下来很多人都开始打破这个记录。我喜欢这个例子，因为它突显出了当你看到别人完成了你认为不可能的事情时，那种强大的力量，可以改变你的思维方式。
And I love that you saw it as a gift. A lot of people, a lot of companies do this. They're in this place and they're like, no way. It's like when the iPhone launched like no, no one, no one needs that. That's not there's no keyboard. And a lot of people like like deny that it's a thing they should be paying attention to. I love that you saw it as like, okay, we need to we need to move the things have changed. We're not doing things. We're not going to be competitive long-term.
我很喜欢你把这个视为一种机遇。很多人和公司在面对这种情况时，会持否定态度。他们就像当初 iPhone 推出时一样态度强硬，认为没人需要那东西，因为没有实体键盘，很多人就忽视了这个应该引起注意的事情。我很欣赏你能看到这是一个需要适应和改变的时刻，意识到如果不顺应变化，我们在长期竞争中就会处于劣势。
I think it's also very much about focus and I think that you know, it's very hard to get to a very good execution but it doesn't guarantee that you're walking in the right way. And many times in my eyes, you know, simple questions can provide the most and the deepest insights about your world. And I think that for us, the fact that we managed to leverage it, as he said, and see it as a gift is one of the most important things.
我认为这很大程度上与专注有关，我认为，要做到非常好的执行是很难的，但这并不保证你走在正确的道路上。很多时候，在我看来，简单的问题能够提供关于你的世界的最深刻的洞见。我认为，对我们来说，正如他所说，我们能够利用这一点并视其为一种礼物，这是最重要的事情之一。
Use your competition, know it, use it to your advantage and you know, take it and set ambitious goals and believe in yourself and you can do amazing things. Another right, I think peace, a lot of people are probably resonating with here is starting a company that's small growing things are going great and then all of a sudden things start to slow down. And in some cases, you don't realize that they've slowed down and that's what happened in your case. Sounds like in a lot of cases, the founders are like, what the hell's going on?
利用你的竞争对手，了解他们，并将其作为你的优势，设定雄心勃勃的目标，相信自己，你就可以成就惊人的事情。另一个方面，我认为很多人可能感同身受的是，一个小公司在成长初期一切顺利，但突然之间发展开始放缓。有时候，你甚至都没意识到这种放缓，而你正是遇到了这样的情况。听起来，在很多情况下，创始人都会觉得不知所措，不明白究竟发生了什么。
Why is it taking three to four weeks to ship one type of company? You call them. And so is there anything? By the way, what was the scale of the company at this point? It's a good question. If I'm not mistaken, it was around 2018, back then, how it's safe to assume like 150 to 100 people in the company, but we were relatively small. I recently had Brian Singer on the podcast, who created the shape up method from base camp and that's kind of his piece of advice to around like 50 to 100 people things start to really change and slow down and that's where a lot of companies start to go sideways.
为什么运送一种公司要花三到四周时间？你打电话给他们，想知道有没有什么解决办法。顺便问一下，当时公司规模是多少？这是个好问题。如果我没记错的话，大约是在2018年，那时候公司的规模大约是150到100人，但我们相对较小。我最近在播客中采访了Brian Singer，他是Basecamp的Shape Up方法的创始人。他的建议是，当公司规模达到大约50到100人时，事情会开始真正发生变化和放缓，这也是许多公司开始走偏的阶段。
So that resonates. That's really interesting. And by the way, this, these columns you're describing just to make it clear, this is like a new type of like data, like new format of column, like it's a new data format that you're building. It's not like just add another column to some database. Yeah, so actually, like exactly, it's a new type of column, but it's a whole product around it. Like if you think about it, for instance, you have a column that captures dates.
所以这很有共鸣。那真有趣。顺便提一下，你所描述的这些列，为了让大家明白，这是一种新类型的数据格式，不是仅仅给某个数据库添加一个新的列。实际上，确切来说，这是一种新型的列，但围绕它的是一个完整的产品。比如，你可以把它想象成一个用于记录日期的列。
So it's pretty straightforward, but you can also have like formula column, which is like more complicated and has like more complex product around it. I think one of the best benefits for us as platform is that suddenly when we will like when we set the goal of adding so many different columns, we actually stopped for the first time and say what is a column like? And we also like organized all the product architecture around it.
这句话的意思是：所以这个过程其实相当简单，但你也可以加入类似公式的列，这种列更复杂，可能有更复杂的功能。我觉得对我们这个平台来说，其中一个最大的好处是，当我们决定增加许多不同类型的列时，我们第一次停下来思考，列到底是什么。我们还围绕这个问题重新组织了整个产品结构。
And you know, these kind of things, like sounds really trivial in retrospect, but you know, we really define, okay, each column need to have like specific capabilities. It should be able to export it to Excel, it should be able to be filtered and sorted and so many different other things, but basically we defined what is it and then create an infrastructure for all these shared things, making the work of adding a new column, just thinking about the specific product that you want to provide with each one of these columns.
这些事情，回过头来看似乎很琐碎，但实际上我们确实定义了每个列需要具备的具体功能。每列应该能够导出到Excel，可以进行筛选和排序，还有很多其他功能。我们基本上是明确了这些要求，然后为所有这些共用功能创建了一套基础结构。这样一来，添加新列的工作就变得简单了，只需考虑你想要在每个列中提供的具体产品即可。
Story about it is actually even more interesting. The way we actually achieved it is that we said, okay, in two weeks, we're going to have an Akaton in which each one of our developers is going to take one column and implement it in one day. And you know, if you think about it from four months to one day, it's like mind-blowing and back then I remember people said, how can it be? But then, Tal that I told you about build an infrastructure is sent it to me. I did a column at night, you know, just to see how it works. And on the day that we did the columns, like everyone knew what they are going to do, what they are trying to solve.
这个故事本身就相当有趣。我们实现它的方法是这样的：我们决定在两个星期后举办一次黑客松，每位开发者将负责实现一列，并且要在一天内完成。如果你想一下，从四个月缩短到一天，真是令人难以置信。当时我记得大家都在问，这怎么可能呢？但后来，我之前提到的Tal搭建了一个基础架构，把它发给了我。我就在晚上做了一列看看效果。到了我们真正实施的那一天，所有人都清楚该做什么以及要解决的问题。
And we just did it and two weeks afterwards, it was in production, which was amazing. Well, we want to do here is help people avoid these moments where they're almost like too late and realizing the things have slowed down. So I think a really another important lesson here is the power of ambition and thinking crazyly big. A lot of people think that when you ask your team, we need to build 25 columns in a month or whatever it was. People would be like, I burned out or feeling super depressed, but really, people get excited.
我们刚刚完成了这个项目，两周后它就开始投入生产，这真是太棒了。我们希望能够帮助人们避免那些几乎来不及反应才意识到事情已经变慢的时刻。我认为这里还有一个非常重要的教训，那就是雄心壮志的力量，以及敢于想象一些看似疯狂的目标。很多人认为，当你让你的团队在一个月内完成25个任务时，大家可能会觉得精疲力竭或者非常沮丧，但实际上，人们会感到兴奋。
There's all this opportunity to think really differently. It reminds me of our bean bee, Brian Chesky was very famous for you. Give him a goal. Here's our goal for the year. And he's like, what would it take to 10x this goal? Just like, what would it take to do that? And he's always pushing you to think a lot bigger when you're like, because your first reaction is like, no, no, no. Why? Which is really just alone. But then you realize if you really think big, it changes everything about how you approach the problem as you describe where it's like instead of like in a date, what would it take to build a Senate day?
本文提到思考方式的巨大转变机会。让我想起我们的朋友Brian Chesky，他以挑战目标著称。每当有人给他设定一个年度目标，他总是会问：“怎样才能将这个目标提高10倍？”他总是鼓励你更大胆地思考，因为你的第一反应通常是抗拒。但当你意识到如果真的去想象更大的目标时，它会改变你解决问题的方式。例如，不只是想着如何约会一天，而是想想如何建造一个美好的一天。
Yeah. And I think, by the way, this is something which is really important about setting ambitious goals. If you set a bit like a different goal, I want to reduce it from four months to three months. So many times this translates in people heads to, I want you to walk harder. I want you to walk longer hours. And this is not a message here. It's about walking smarter. And I think that many times when we talk about speed of execution, you know, there's fake speed, which means trying to do the same work by skipping stages or not doing the high quality that you want. But there's the real speed and speed like organizations and speed of execution.
好的，我认为，顺便说一下，设定雄心勃勃的目标真的很重要。如果你设定的目标有点不同，比如我想把时间从四个月减少到三个月，很多时候人们会理解为，我要你更努力地工作，工作更长时间。但这不是我要传达的信息。关键在于更聪明地工作。我认为，很多时候当我们谈论执行速度时，有一种假速度，它意味着通过跳过步骤或降低质量来尝试完成相同的工作。但还有一种是真正的速度，比如组织中的速度和执行的速度。
Many times it's about doing things right. It's about understanding. Hey, what is going to move the needle and walk only on that, not walking in a lot of things that you tend to invent when you're trying to solve a problem. And being is like, you know, about like thinking, as you said, like thinking differently. And I think that for the girls, this is why we really wanted the goal that you really understand from the first minute, that if you walk the same way, you cannot achieve it, even if you'll slip in the office.
很多时候，这关乎把事情做好。关键在于理解。要弄明白什么才能真正带来改变，然后专注于这一点，而不是在试图解决问题时胡乱去做很多事情。正如你所说，这也是一种不同的思维方式。我认为，这就是为什么我们希望女生们从一开始就认识到，如果依旧按照旧有方式行事，就无法实现目标，即便你在办公室熬夜加班也无济于事。
So you need to change dramatically how you think. And you know, the advanced phase of it is that today we're doing it on things that we didn't see others doing. And you know, we have the confidence because we have the experience of like trusting ourselves that this is an exercise for us that will make us actually think about different solutions. I know another element of this that is really important to you that you has shifted the way you all operate is focusing on impact.
所以，你需要彻底改变你的思维方式。现在的进展是，我们正在做一些别人没有做到的事情。我们有信心是因为我们有过信任自己经历的经验，这项练习将帮助我们考虑不同的解决方案。我知道对你来说，另一个非常重要的元素是关注影响力，这已经改变了你们的运作方式。
There's a lot of focus on just building a lot of stuff. And you realize there's a lot of power and thinking from perspective, how do we have the most impact? Talk about that. This is the core and the main thing that we also measure like our teams. And this is how see a great PM. So a great PM basically for me is someone that is relentless until he gets this impact until it validates that this impact is in place.
很多时候我们都专注于不停地建造东西。然而，我们也意识到，从审视事物的角度出发，思考如何产生最大的影响力是很有力量的。关于这一点，我们需要谈谈。这是我们评估团队表现的核心和主要标准。对于我来说，一个出色的产品经理就是那种在实现并验证这种影响力之前决不放弃的人。
And you know, for us, it really changed how we think about things. It really changed how we set goals for our teams. So in many ways PM in Monday, first and foremost is responsible for creating the shared understanding on what would be impactful for our customers. Okay, it's not about the solution and what we are going to build. It's about what's the problem? What's the opportunity?
对我们来说，这真的改变了我们思考问题的方式，也改变了我们为团队设定目标的方式。在很多方面，Monday的产品经理首要任务是确保大家对什么对我们的客户有影响有共同理解。重要的不在于解决方案和我们将要构建的东西，而在于问题是什么？机会是什么？
And second, how we will know that we move the Nailer. And without these two things, you can build so many different things. And you know, it's like songs for the draw like I built so you know, such a huge part of what I build was never used by users, the way I thought it was going to use. So I think that for me, having this understanding of what we want to change for our customers and also how we know we did it is a huge huge part of the PM all. And for us, you know, it means that we pay a lot of time in setting goals in making sure that we really understand both again, the opportunity, but not only that, but how we'll see and we'll know for sure that we move the Nailer in many ways, you know, it changes the conversation.
其次，我们如何知道我们成功推动了Nailer。没有这两方面的理解，你可以构建很多不同的事物。而这就像是为活动创作歌曲一样，我建造的很多东西从未被用户以我预期的方式使用。所以，对我来说，明确地理解我们想为客户改变什么以及如何知道我们实现了这一点，是产品经理工作中非常重要的一部分。对于我们来说，这意味着我们会投入大量时间来设定目标，确保我们真正理解机会。不仅如此，我们也要清晰地知晓和确认推动了Nailer。这在很多方面改变了我们的对话方式。
So PMs, you know, and their teams many times like are spending a lot of time at the problem area before they think about the solution. The solution is not the case anymore. It's not like there are so many different solutions. And once you do that and you have these goals suddenly it produces also a lot of the discussions that you have about the different solutions because everyone knows that everything is going to be tested on real life. So they make make it everyone pre-definitely. And also in that way, you know, it makes you think much more holistically, which I also think is something that is very special at Monday is that we give our teams like real life goals as much as we can.
所以，项目经理及其团队通常会在考虑解决方案之前花费大量时间在问题领域。解决方案不再是设计初期的重点，因为可供选择的解决方案有很多种。一旦这样做，并设定好目标后，这就会引发关于不同解决方案的大量讨论，因为大家都知道所有方案都将在现实环境中进行测试。这种方式提前让每个人都做好准备。此外，这也促使你以更全面的方式思考。我认为这也是 Monday 公司非常特别的一点，我们尽可能为团队设定实际的目标。
And then you know, in some cases, doing the biggest impact is not developing another feature. It's about making the current value more accessible. It's about connecting better to the go-to market motion that you have. It's about understanding how your customers are going to learn what you built and use it. And you know, this realization is something that we try very hard to stay on it. And it's hard because like people tend to build things like we all love to build things. Right? And when you start to build things, you get excited and suddenly you lose track of why? Why are you doing it? And what do you need to change?
在某些情况下，要产生最大的影响力，并不是开发新功能，而是让现有的价值更易于获取。关键在于更好地与你的市场推广策略相结合，理解客户如何学习并使用你所开发的东西。我们非常努力地坚持这种认识，因为大家通常喜欢创造新事物。当你开始构建新东西时，会感到兴奋，并很容易失去方向：为什么要这样做？又需要做出哪些改变呢？
And I think that in that sense, this is the most important part about like this point of impact. And you know, this is also how we measure ourselves. So we can work extremely hard. It doesn't mean that we are successful. It doesn't mean that we are doing our work right. And it's not only for the PMs. It's for the entire team. So the entire team succeeds or fail together based on the value that we bring to our customers. And we have a lot of different ways in order to make sure that we stay honest to this principle.
我认为，在这个意义上，这就是所谓影响点中最重要的部分。这也是我们衡量自身的方法。即使我们工作非常努力，也不代表我们成功了，也不代表我们工作做得对。这不仅适用于项目经理（PM），而是适用于整个团队。整个团队的成败取决于我们为客户带来的价值。我们有很多不同的方法来确保我们始终忠于这一原则。
There's a lot of people listening to this that work at say modern tech companies, very high growth tech companies that are just like duh, this is how you should work. A lot of people hearing this are like, I don't really understand what like how like what am I doing wrong? What am I missing? Maybe what's a sign that you're not oriented around impact? I think that the most obvious sign for me is that you are building something without the aim or without the initial aim of what it's changed for your users and how you are going to measure it. So in my eyes, it's many times the fact that you don't have a goal or the goal is like many times you know, for me a smell for that is that I hear people use the word we're going to enhance.
有很多人正在听这段内容，他们在例如现代科技公司或高速成长的科技公司工作，可能会觉得这再明显不过了：这就是应该工作的方式。但是，也有很多人听到后会觉得困惑，不明白自己哪里错了，或者漏掉了什么。可能有哪些迹象表明你没有围绕影响进行工作？我觉得最明显的一个迹象就是，你在构建一些东西时，没有明确目标或一开始就没有考虑到它会为用户带来什么变化，以及你打算如何评估这些变化。在我看来，很多时候问题就在于你没有设定明确的目标，其中一个迹象就是我经常听到有人说“我们要提升”什么什么。
We're going to augment. We are going to extend value and distance and it's not enough. What is it going to change for users and how you're going to see it that it actually happened? And then you start asking yourself all the questions because once you have a goal that you are committed to, suddenly you think about the target audience because it's neat enough like big enough target audience for instance in order to get to your goals. You need to make sure that what you build actually going to touch all of these people and I can share just a recent example and you know, these things sound trivial and maybe an example would you know like help resonate with that because I know many people are thinking like that.
我们要进行增强。我们将扩展价值和范围，但这还不够。这会为用户带来什么改变？你如何确认这些改变确实发生了？接着，你会开始问自己各种问题，因为一旦你有了一个坚定的目标，你会突然开始考虑目标受众，比如说这个目标受众是否足够大，以便实现你的目标。你需要确保你建立的东西能够真正触及到所有这些人。我可以分享一个最近的例子，这些事情听起来可能很普通，但或许这个例子会让你产生共鸣，因为我知道很多人是这样思考的。
You know, we have a very interesting offering that we just introduced with AI. It's called AI blocks. Okay. And basically it means that with no code you can integrate blocks which contain AI actions within your existing workflows and you know 70% of Mondays customers are non-tech and for them this makes AI accessible for them and has a huge, huge value. And we started building these blocks and we released it to customers and we measured you know, discoverability and adoption and retention and so on and something that we do in order to stay connected to the numbers. So each team at Mondays has like what we call the daily numbers update.
你知道吗，我们最近推出了一项非常有趣的服务，涉及人工智能，名叫AI模块（AI blocks）。基本上，这意味着你可以在不用编写代码的情况下，将包含AI功能的模块集成到现有的工作流程中。我们的Monday平台上大约有70%的客户并非技术人员，这对他们来说，AI模块让人工智能变得更加触手可及，极具价值。我们已经开始开发这些模块，并将其发布给客户。然后，我们通过测量发现率、采纳率和用户保留率等指标来了解它们的使用情况。为保持对数据的关注，Monday的每个团队每天都会进行所谓的“每日数据更新”。
So we have a think about it like a message that the team is building with all the numbers that they care about because we really want people to live these numbers. So for AI, for instance for AI blocks it was AI actions. So we had AI actions, how many accounts like I was using these AI actions and so on and so on. And you know, we got amazing responses from our customers. We see great success of them getting value from AI actions. But you know one day like in this like it's a we use a select channel in which one of our internal systems big brain is sending us this message every day. And then we have conversations about it. Okay. And you know one day we saw we noticed that the amount of accounts that are using AI is super, super low comparing to the entire population that we have.
好的，我们可以这样理解：我们把这个过程看作是一条团队正在构建的信息，包含了他们关心的所有数字，因为我们真的希望人们能够运用这些数字。以人工智能（AI）为例，对于人工智能模块来说，我们关注的是AI行为。我们统计了有多少账户在使用这些AI行为等等。我们的客户对此反应非常好，我们看到他们通过AI行为获得了很大的价值。但是，有一天，我们在一个使用选择频道的内部系统“大脑”中每天都会接收到这条信息，然后我们会就此进行讨论。有一天，我们注意到，使用AI的账户数量相较于我们总体的账户数量来看是非常非常少的。
And you know we have 250,000 paying companies that use Monday and we saw only like few thousands there. And you know until this point everyone will like in a very good feeling that we're making an amazing product. We get really good feedback. We're building great value. We're adding value. But we said down and say, okay, why it's only like this and this. Then someone said, yeah, you know, since AI is new, we need to do change of the terms of service for customers before we're opening it to them. And this is planned. You know for like in the next quarter or something like that. And said, what? No, we need to do it now. You know, we need to now open it for everyone because this is actually what would be the most impactful thing to do.
你知道，我们有25万家付费公司在使用Monday，但我们在那里看到的反馈只有几千条。你知道吗，直到这一点，每个人都会感觉很好，因为我们正在打造一个很棒的产品。我们得到了非常好的反馈，创造了很大的价值。但我们坐下来思考，为什么结果只是这样。然后有人说，是的，因为AI是新的，我们需要在向客户开放之前更改服务条款。这是计划在下个季度或类似时间点执行的。我听后说，什么？不，我们现在就需要去做。我们需要立刻向所有人开放，因为这才是最有影响力的行动。
And then like you know the team went and set with legal and sent with everyone and with two weeks time it was open to 98% of Monday customers. You know, and I think in that sense, you know, this is a very good example because we could have continued building value. And it's great. But the impact wouldn't be the impact that we were aiming for. And this is a very important point. And you know, we I think in that sense, staying really connected to your teams, to your numbers. So this is something that I really feel strongly about. I feel that you need to get your numbers in push. You need to leave by them. And you know, for me, it's like so exciting to see a conversation that says, oh wow, today there were a lot of new accounts that are using what I'm building. Let's see what happens.
然后，你知道，团队去和法律部门以及其他人沟通，经过两周的时间，它向98%的Monday用户开放。在这方面，我认为这是一个很好的例子，因为我们本可以继续创造价值，这当然很好，但效果不会达到我们想要的。这是一个非常重要的点。而且，我觉得在这一方面，保持与团队和数据的紧密联系至关重要。我对此非常有感触。我认为你需要推动你的数据，并依据它们行事。对我来说，看到这样的对话让我非常兴奋，比如有人说：“哇，今天有很多新账户在使用我开发的东西，让我们看看会发生什么。”
And you know, this kind of things that I see the conversation about. It's amazing. And also, you know, for in this case, seeing the eye actions go, it's like you want to dive it and push it forward. And in many ways, I feel that this is a very good example on where you can actually build a lot of value. You can walk really fast. You can deliver a lot of features. But the problem lays in other place in order to get the impact that you want. Yeah, there's so much joy in watching watching your number go up. So just to close the loop here, to help people see if their impact driven working from a perspective of how do we drive the most impact is one simple way of thinking about it is you're working backwards from a goal that is going to drive business growth and revenue basically in the end.
翻译成中文：
你知道，这类话题让我觉得很惊讶。而且，在这种情况下，看到眼动的变化，就像是你想深入研究并推动它向前发展。从很多方面来看，我觉得这是一个可以创造大量价值的好例子。你可以走得很快，也可以实现很多功能。但是，问题出在其他地方，要想获得想要的影响力，就需要解决这些问题。看着数字上升确实让人感到无比欣喜。所以，为了帮助大家了解是否从影响力驱动的角度去工作，可以用一种简单的思维方式，就是从一个将推动业务增长和收入的目标出发，倒推回去。
If you're working backwards from a number and a metric and a goal, and then thinking through what are the levers that will most move this metric that's assigned your thinking impact through by impact versus let's just keep shipping features at the sales team once. Yeah. And I think another thing for me like it's an exercise that I really, you know, I really encourage everyone to do for me. It was like a after the columns hackathon and everything that we talked about, I said, okay, each quarter and this is when we were much smaller, but it can be each month, it can be each two weeks. But how do I imagine the company and the product is going to be different and better for customers in a quarter from now and from that, you know, walk it backwards.
如果你是从一个数字、一个指标和一个目标开始往回推，并且思考哪些杠杆能够最有效地推动这个指标，那么你的思维将是通过影响来影响整体，而不是仅仅根据销售团队的要求不断推出新功能。我个人特别鼓励大家做这样的练习。对我来说，这就像是在某次软件开发竞赛之后，我想明白的事情。我告诉自己，在每个季度——那时我们的团队还很小，但可以每月或每两周——我要设想公司和产品在这个时间段内将如何变得不同和更好，对客户而言，然后从这个愿景往回倒推。
But if you if you're just saying we'll have better security, we'll have better performance, we'll have less bugs, we'll have more enhancements through the I don't know this and this feature. It's not enough. You need to constantly build value, which is pivotal to your customers. And if you don't do it and if it's helpful you to answer about this question, it's a it's a very good sign that you are not impredeven and you know, I love to do it. Also with teams and individuals like what are the things that you are most proud of that you did in the last three months. And if it's like takes you a lot of time to think, you're not very focused and you're definitely not maximizing the impact that you want due to that in my eyes.
如果你只是说我们会有更好的安全性、更好的性能、更少的漏洞，会通过某某功能带来更多的改进，这还不够。你需要不断创造价值，而这种价值对你的客户至关重要。如果你不这样做，那么这可能说明你没有做到出色。同时，我也喜欢让团队和个人反思：在过去的三个月中，你最自豪的事情是什么？如果你需要很长时间去思考，那说明你的注意力不够集中，而且你肯定没有最大化你期望的影响力。
I like that exercise as kind of a like versus waiting for your competitors to do something and then realizing that it would be way behind it's forcing yourself every quarter to think about this. So do you do this as like you have a meeting or or someone in your calendar or how do you how do you actually operationalize this? So it's actually there. You know, today we are like under the builders organization, which is the engineering product management product design was 700 people. So we have a lot of different like ways and methodologies to do it in different levels. But I'll give you an example from the company level and from the team level maybe because these are the most interesting ones.
我喜欢这种练习，它让我们不要等到竞争对手采取行动后，才意识到自己已经落后。相反，它强迫我们每个季度都去思考这个问题。那么你是如何实际操作这个过程的呢？是通过开会还是在日历上安排某些人负责这个任务？我们目前在一个叫做“建设者组织”的团队中，涵盖工程、产品管理和产品设计，共有700人。因此，我们在不同层面上有很多不同的方法和策略来进行这个练习。我可以给你一些公司层面和团队层面的例子，因为这两个层面的例子最有趣。
So we just recently had an early kick off each and every year we do an early kick off for our company. And one of the most exciting sessions obviously is what we're going to do with our product as a product company. And I really like to have a slide in which I like write and I just share it when I'm going to stand here in a year from now. What is going to be different for our customers? And you know, this is on the company level and every one slide and it talks about like offering and it talks about the value that they are getting in a way that next year I want to you know, it's here to start.
我们最近刚刚提前举办了一次年度启动会。每年，我们公司都会进行这样一次早期启动。其中最让人期待的环节之一就是我们作为一家产品公司接下来要如何发展我们的产品。我很喜欢在幻灯片中写下自己的想法，并分享出来，当我站在这里，一年后的今天，我们的客户会有哪些不同的体验？这涉及公司的整体规划，每张幻灯片都会谈到公司的产品与服务，以及客户将获得的价值。我希望通过这样的方式，让来年有一个良好的开端。
And my my presentation with the slide from last year and see where we are. And you know, in this level it can be something like our CLM continues with a very strong momentum and becomes a product suite when we give much more robust value to our customers. This can be an example. Okay. With an additional product of CLM marketing I would just say. But on a team level what we did and maybe I'll take an example from the early days, you know, we really did, we really love to do each and every two weeks. I told you we would write like an update for the entire company about what we did.
将以下内容翻译成中文，并简化易读：
在这个层面上，可以说我们的CLM（合同生命周期管理）保持了强劲的发展势头，并成为一个产品套件，为客户提供更强大的价值。这是一个例子。额外的CLM营销产品我会简单提到。在团队层面，我们做了什么呢？或许我可以引用早期的一个例子，我们真的很喜欢每两周写一次更新，向整个公司报告我们的工作成果。
And the way we did it is that each and every one of our team members actually for write what is highlights. And then we would share it with the company. And this exercise really made us sit every two weeks and think on an individual level but also on a team level. And you know, every one of our team members used to write to read these updates and say then we had a good two weeks or we had a bad two weeks. We did a lot of impact. So we did not not enough impact. So I really encouraged to create these points in time where you sit down and you force yourself to understand whether what you did is what you thought you're going to achieve or not.
我们这样做的方式是，让每个团队成员都写下他们认为的亮点，然后与公司分享。这个练习让我们每两周坐下来，从个人层面和团队层面进行思考。每个团队成员都会读这些更新，然后说这两周过得不错，或者这两周过得不太好。我们做出了很大影响，或者影响不够。我非常鼓励创建这样的时间节点，迫使自己坐下来反思，是不是达到了原本设想的目标。
That's great. I really like the slide idea. It's basically there's all this power and just working backwards from something in the future. However you come up with it. So it's just like in a year we're going to have this just like working backwards from a goal, working backwards from a big vision. I think those are such good exercises. Obviously Amazon's famous for working backwards is a whole book called working backwards from their PR approach. Okay. I want to go in a slightly different direction. I want to zoom out a little bit.
太好了。我非常喜欢这个倒推法的理念。这个方法就是将未来的某一目标设定好，然后从这个目标开始逆向推导出来。就像设定一个一年后的目标，从一个大愿景开始倒推。这是一种非常好的训练方法。显然，亚马逊以其倒推法而闻名，还有一本书专门讲述了他们的公关方法，名为《倒推法》。好的，我想从稍微不同的角度来探讨，拉远一些视角。
So you've been at this for eight years building Monday. You said there's 250,000 customers at this point. What's like the revenue scale? Give people a couple stats to give them a sense of just how large this company has gotten. We recently announced that we cost the one billion dollar in ARR. We're serving as I said 250,000 customers across the globe from virtually any industry that you can think about like more than 200 different business verticals. It could be both tech and non-techs, every customers.
所以你已经花了八年时间来打造Monday这家公司。你提到目前有25万个客户。那么，这家公司的收入规模如何？能否提供一些数据，让大家了解一下公司现在有多大？我们最近宣布年度经常性收入达到10亿美元。正如我所说的，我们在全球范围内拥有25万客户，覆盖你能想到的几乎任何行业，有超过200个不同的业务领域，可以是科技行业，也可以是非科技行业的客户。
The vast majority of our customers are non-tech. And you know from like a customer that is building airplanes and cool ships all the way to real estate, construction, finance, tech and everything you can basically think of. And if I like just for reference and single golf pay so when I joined Monday, eight and a half years ago and we were called the pulse, we had around four million in ARR and we you know we scaled from the from there to one billion and from like around 30, 40 people to the company to 2500 right now.
我们的绝大多数客户并不是技术行业的。而且我们服务的客户范围非常广，从制造飞机和酷炫船只的公司，到房地产、建筑、金融、技术等各个领域，几乎你能想到的行业都有。如果让我参考一下，在我八年半前加入Monday（当时我们叫做The Pulse）的时候，我们的年经常性收入（ARR）大约是四百万美元。自那时以来，我们从那个基础上扩展到了十亿美元，并且从最初的大约30到40名员工，发展到现在的2500名员工。
Awesome. When you talk about the product you're building, it's a lot of people it's like, oh it's like project management stuff. All this like column like what's the big deal but I had drew how stood on the podcast and you made this really interesting point when he talks to people working at SpaceX who are like launching rockets to Mars and he talked about people building ships like if you really boil down what are they doing day to day, they're sitting in tools like Monday putting together tasks and doing to do's and sharing documents like this is kind of what the world runs on.
太棒了。当你谈论你正在开发的产品时，很多人可能会觉得这就是项目管理工具，就像那些常见的任务栏一样，没什么特别的。但我之前与 Drew 一起做了一期播客，他提出了一个非常有趣的观点，他提到在 SpaceX 工作的人，他们正在发射火箭前往火星。他还谈到造船的人，如果你真的去解析他们每天在做什么，他们实际上是在使用像 Monday 这样的工具，安排任务、管理待办事项、共享文档。事实上，这就是这个世界运转的方式。
So it's important to have that perspective with that putting that aside for a second. I think very few people have seen what you've seen. It's having a seeing a company scale this way. Also the transformation you just shared of just like almost shipping too much and being slow to like okay let's rework things to shipping 25 columns in a month and all these things. Like very few people I've seen this so there's a lot to learn from this journey they've been on.
因此，把这个放在一边来看待问题是很重要的。我认为很少有人见过你所见的情况，比如一个公司以这样的方式进行扩展。还有你刚才提到的转变，从几乎生产过多产品且速度缓慢的状态，到重新调整战略达到一个月交付25个产品柱这样的成果。像这样的经历很多人没见过，因此从他们的这段历程中有很多东西可以学习。
So I have a bunch of questions and a different bunch of different ways of approaching some of your biggest lessons from this journey. The first is let me just ask you this question. What would you say is the most counterintuitive thing you've learned about building product and leading teams through this journey of building Monday? Maybe first of all it's about like something that we really care about which is transparency.
好的，我有很多问题，也有各种不同的方法来探讨你在这段旅程中学到的一些重要经验。首先，我想问你这样一个问题：在打造产品和带领团队的发展过程中，你学到的最让人意想不到的东西是什么？可能首先是关于我们非常重视的东西，比如透明度。
I'm like let me tell you a story like I sat down for dinner at my family and many many different members of my family are like entrepreneurs or like working as an executive in tech companies and so on and you know back in the days with Monday before we went public we actually shared every bit of information with my employees. You would get into our office and you would see a dashboard with how many paying accounts you have how many people have chained today how many signups do we have and so many different things even if you came for an interview you would see these numbers.
让我给你讲个故事：有一次我和家人一起坐下来吃晚饭，我的家里有很多人是企业家或者在科技公司担任高管。过去，我们公司的信息透明度非常高。在周一公司上市之前，我们和员工分享了每一个细节。你走进我们的办公室，就能看到一个仪表板，上面显示了我们有多少付费账户、今天有多少人变动、多少人注册等等各种数据。即使你只是来参加面试，也能看到这些数字。
And I remember sitting in this dinner and everyone would tell me listen you are making a mistake how can you do it when thing goes south you know you'll demoralize the team and people like you know we'll get upset about it. And I think this is you know for me one of the most important things when you hire and you have such a talented team you want to show them we want to show with them everything and the reason for that is that then you're working on every challenge together.
我记得在那次晚餐中，大家都对我说：“听着，你在犯错，你怎么能这么做？如果事情不顺利，你会让整个团队士气低落，而且人们会因此感到沮丧。” 我认为，这对我来说是非常重要的一点，当你招聘并拥有如此有才华的团队时，你希望和他们分享一切。这样做的原因是，你们可以一起应对每一个挑战。
And instead of demoralizing people I think that for the right people and the people that like you know and are working at Monday this is something that gives them so like you know a sense of deep partnership. And as a leader you know there were many situations in my professional life that I knew some bit of information and I felt you know all the weight on my shoulders and I love to call it the dark side of the morning or they're alone right.
我认为，与其让人感到失落，不如为那些真正适合的人，和那些了解你并在星期一工作的同事们，这种关系能带给他们一种深度的合作感。作为领导者，在我的职业生涯中，有很多情况下，我掌握了一些信息，感受到巨大的压力，我喜欢把这种感觉称为“清晨的黑暗面”或者“孤独一人”。
Like you're coming to the office there's nothing you know like more demoralizing as or like depressing as a leader that you feel awful because something that you know and you're coming to the office and everything is great and everyone are like happy. And I think in Monday we really wanted to do a different thing we really have a little approach of like very radical transparency about everything and this actually makes everyone part of what we are doing.
就像你来到办公室一样，没有什么比作为一个领导者感到糟糕更让人沮丧的了，因为你知道一些事情，而你来到办公室时一切都很好，大家都很开心。我认为在星期一，我们真的想做一些不同的事情，我们采用了一种非常彻底的透明化方法，这让每个人都成为我们正在做的事情的一部分。
And in a way we like to say we really want everyone's brains in the challenge and not just one centralized brain and a lot of walking hands. And I can share examples you know when for instance suddenly people would come up to the office we have dashboards across everyone in the office like each team has its own dashboards we have our company dashboards with format to exist and so on.
我们想说的是，我们希望让每个人的智慧都参与到这个挑战中，而不仅仅是依赖一个中央的大脑和许多执行命令的手。我可以分享一些例子，比如有时候，人们会走进办公室，看到我们为每个团队设置的仪表板，还有公司的整体仪表板。这些帮助我们以清晰的方式运作。
And I remember cases in which someone said listen what happened to the conversion and you know think how powerful it is when you have everyone at the company looking at these things and many of the things that we discovered many of the things that we saw as challenges and problems is things that people saw due to distance transparency.
我记得有些情况，比如有人问：“听着，转化情况怎么样？”想想看，当公司里的每个人都在关注这些事情时，这种做法有多么有力。我们发现的问题和挑战，很多都是因为大家能从不同的距离和角度看到问题，这种透明度很关键。
And so I think that's maybe the you know counter-intuitive part is that don't be afraid to share the information it's exactly the other way around and I can probably share share that you know even today's public company we really share everything that we can. You know and also like if you are product manager at Monday you are signing like a 10-by-five program for selling your stocks meaning that we found a way to make everyone still see the data because we think this is the most important part.
我认为这其中可能有一个反直觉的地方，就是不要害怕分享信息，实际情况恰恰相反。我可以说，即使是今天的上市公司，我们也是尽可能分享所有可以分享的信息。此外，如果你是Monday公司的产品经理，你会参与一个类似签署10x5计划的项目来出售你的股票。这意味着我们找到了一个方法，让每个人都能看到数据，因为我们认为这是最重要的部分。
And I think this is one thing that I really believe in and really changed how we walk and also how people are feeling about being partners in building Monday and not just walking at a company is that thing they sign that's just like auto-sell stocks so they're not selling based on information based on announcements that's coming okay. God it's every PM basically has to automatically I can't like decide I'm going to sell my stock tomorrow because of this numbers thinking yeah.
我认为这件事情真的让我信服，并且改变了我们工作的方式，以及人们对参与建设Monday的感觉。大家不仅仅是在为一家公司工作。这个机制就是：他们签署了一份协议，股票会自动出售。这样一来，股票的买卖不是基于某些公告信息。每位产品经理都必须遵循这一机制，所以我不能因为某些数据就决定明天要卖掉我的股票。
So so you know like we want to give people the choice but like usually we really feel that in most cases you really need to know this information in order to do your walk and so interesting and I think people even prefer just like dollar cost average sell you know it's like it's like easier not having to try to time all these things. I definitely think so yeah that's really interesting and that's and that's just product managers or how far does that all go no so basically when we became public you know I remember still like one of the conversations that we had with like the bankers and the lawyers about like listen guys things would need to change you cannot have a dashboard with all your financials the entrance of the building it doesn't make sense as a public company and we understood it but we didn't want to let go of what we cared about because we really believe this is one of the main drivers to the business having these transparency and having like shared brains you know and mode so we tried to think about ways in order to do it.
所以，呃，你知道，就像我们想要给人们选择权一样，但通常我们真的觉得在大多数情况下，你确实需要了解这些信息才能进行你的决策和探索。这很有趣，我认为人们甚至更喜欢像定期定额投资那样，省去了尝试把握时机的麻烦。我完全同意，是的，非常有趣。那么这只是产品经理的事情，或者这会影响到多远呢？不，基本上当我们上市时，我还记得我们和银行家及律师的谈话，他们说，听着，伙计们，有些事情需要改变，你们不能在大楼入口处展示所有财务数据，这对上市公司来说是不合理的。我们理解这一点，但我们不想放弃我们所关心的东西，因为我们真的相信这种透明度和共享思想是推动业务发展的主要动力之一。所以我们尝试思考实现这一点的方法。
So now if I like fast forward you know we're almost four years public and we have an internal app called Monday morning and in Monday morning you have two parts parts A and part B part A is for the every company employee contains a lot about engagement and a lot of data that can be shared with everyone and part B is confidential and it's by role okay so it's their company management but I think the important point is that we see product management as something that got to have these numbers so we thought about it really hard and you know it's a it's a lot of logistics to do like so many plans and then be five plans but I think it's worth it yeah this is so interesting like a lot of companies talking about transparency and you guys are I think radical transparency is a good way to describe this because I've never heard of a company doing this they didn't care about it as well apparently and yeah it took time to you know to get to these solutions.
好的，现在如果我们快速前进，你知道我们已经公开上市将近四年了。我们有一个内部应用程序叫做Monday Morning，在这个应用程序里有两个部分：部分A和部分B。部分A是面向每个公司员工的，包含了大量关于员工参与度的信息和可以与所有人分享的数据；部分B是保密的，按角色分配。这是公司管理的一部分，但我认为重要的一点是，我们认为产品管理需要包含这些数据。我们对此进行了深入思考，这涉及很多后勤工作，比如制定多个计划并最终确定五个计划，但我认为这是值得的。
这很有趣，因为很多公司都在谈论透明度，而你们公司则真正做到了。我认为“激进的透明度”是对此的一个很好的描述，因为我从未听说过有公司这样做。他们显然也不关心这个问题，这确实花了一些时间才找到这些解决方案。
That's so funny so for people that are listening to this are like maybe we should explore this what's like one thing you'd suggest they they could do to start moving down this road and the benefit again is you I guess maybe again remind people the benefits of doing this because it sounds like a lot of work and and risk so I think that as a young startup it's actually not such a hard work if when we were very small you know back in the days we had like like the daily numbers concept that we now have for the teams we had the daily numbers for the company how much paying accounts how many upweigh dead down there then so on daily and you saw people reacting to it like on a daily basis so this is something that you can do in virtually one hour and it like changes how people see you know they're all within the company it focuses everyone to the companies KPIs because everyone understand what you care about and so on so this is one thing that you can do extremely fast and I don't see any disadvantage it aside from the fact that people are afraid many time you are afraid and I can share it's so much like it's even like a big relief that you don't need to think can I share it can I don't share it like can I like you just let it go and everything would be okay.
这太有趣了，对于那些在听这个的人来说，他们可能会觉得应该探索一下这个方向。那么，我建议他们开始走这条路可以做的一件事情是什么呢？再次提醒一下，这样做的好处是什么，因为听起来似乎需要大量的工作和冒险。我认为作为一个年轻的初创公司，这其实并不是特别艰难。回到我们很小的时候，我们现在为团队设立的日常数据概念，当时是为整个公司设立的，比如每天的付费账户数量、增长或下降等情况。你会看到人们每天都在回应这些数据。这是你可以在几乎一个小时内完成的事情，这样做可以改变人们在公司中的看法，使每个人都专注于公司的关键绩效指标，因为每个人都明白你在乎什么，所以这是你可以非常快速实施的一件事情。我看不出有什么缺点，除了人们往往会害怕，很多时候你会担心是否能分享。但事实上，开放分享会带来很大的轻松，你不必再思考是否可以分享，是否不可以分享，直接放手，一切都会顺利。
And I can share from my experience that we shared everything and the second thing which is really practical you know it's the office dashboards we really believe in it so you know you buy a TV you put it on a wall you start a conversation to do it what do we want to show on this TV and you know when we was like a smaller startup and we set all in one office space we had our company goals a dashboard and it also had like we programmed it to have sounds on meaningful events so when you add there like for instance new paying account you had almost Simpson saying like they're the same one million dollar become a millionaire or something like that for you know a new sign up you add the tick and so on so suddenly everyone are leaving it you know it becomes part of the cadence of the company.
根据我的经验，我们分享了一切。而第二个非常实际的事情就是办公室的仪表盘。我们非常相信它的作用。你可以买一台电视，把它挂在墙上，然后开始讨论我们想在这台电视上展示什么。当我们还是一个比较小的初创公司时，我们都在一个办公室里办公，我们有一个公司目标的仪表盘，上面会在重要事件时发出声音。比如，有新客户付费时，它会播放《辛普森一家》的台词，例如“赚了一百万美元，成为百万富翁”之类的；有新用户注册时也有提示。这样一来，仪表盘就成为了公司文化的一部分，大家都参与其中。
So these are just two ideas to make it super easy and the change happens immediately and I love how that connects back to the whole point about impact people all lining around here is what we're trying to drive like if the Simpson sound is going off that's a sign that this matters and the something we should be driving up and it creates such a partnership you know I remember like reaching to the first time where we had one a million dollar collection in one month breaking the record of like new paying accounts for one day everyone are living what in many companies you know only the management or the founders are like filling and I think that in that sense you already feel that you have a great power because everyone around is the same things and it makes conversations different because everyone understands what matters to a different this is awesome really cool counterintuitive lesson I feel like a whole podcast.
所以这只是两个简单的想法，可以立刻产生变化，我很喜欢这与我们关注影响力的目标紧密相连。就像如果《辛普森一家》主题曲响起，那就是一个信号，表明这件事很重要，是我们应该推动的方向，这也创造了一种合作。我还记得第一次我们一个月中有一百万美元的收益，并且在一天内创造了新的付费账户记录的情景。许多公司只有管理层或创始人能感受到这种体验，但在这种情况下，每个人都感受到很大的力量，因为周围的人都关注相同的事情，这让交流变得不同，因为每个人都明白什么才是真正重要的。这真是一个非常酷且反直觉的经验，让我觉得可以做整个播客来讨论。
Could be done on like how to do this effectively I want to move on but I guess if people want to start implementing this at the company let's just say they should co-doc to you and you could approach a bunch of advice I would love to this episode is brought to you by Vanta and I am very excited to have Christina Cassiopo CEO and co-founder Vanta joining me for this very short conversation great to be here big fan of the podcast and the Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show but for some of our newer listeners what is Vanta do and who is it for sure so we started Vanta in 2018 focused on founders helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications like sock 2 or ISO 2701.
当然可以，这段内容是关于如何有效地实施某些事情。我想继续推进，但如果大家希望在公司中开始实施，那么就让他们与你共同协作吧，你可以提出很多建议。
这一集节目由Vanta赞助，我很高兴能够邀请Vanta的首席执行官兼联合创始人Christina Cassiopo加入这段简短的对话。很高兴来到这里，我是这个播客的忠实粉丝，Vanta是节目的长期赞助商。不过，对于一些新听众来说，Vanta究竟是什么呢？那我就简单介绍一下。我们在2018年成立了Vanta，致力于帮助创业者建立他们的安全程序，并通过诸如SOC 2或ISO 27001等合规认证获得认证，认可他们在安全方面所付出的努力。
Today we currently help over 9,000 companies including some startup household names like Atlassian ramp and lane chain start and scale their security programs and ultimately build trust by automating compliance centralizing GRC and accelerating security reviews that is awesome I never experienced that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources and nobody wants to spend time doing this that is a very much our experience but before the company and some extent during it but the idea is with automation with AI with software we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way and in our joke we started this compliance company so you don't have to we appreciate you for doing that and you have a special discount for listeners they can get a thousand dollars off Vanta at vanta.com slash Lenny that's v-a-n-t-a.com slash Lenny for one thousand dollars off Vanta thanks for that Christina thank you.
今天，我们目前为超过9,000家公司提供帮助，包括一些知名初创企业，如Atlassian、Ramp和Lane Chain，帮助他们启动和扩展安全计划，并通过自动化合规、集中GRC（治理、风险与合规）和加速安全审查来最终建立信任。这真是太棒了，我从未体验过，但这些事情通常需要大量时间和资源，而没有人愿意花时间去做这些事情。这也是我们的经验，无论是在公司成立之前还是在某种程度上成立期间。但我们的理念是，通过自动化、人工智能和软件，我们正在帮助客户以高效的方式与潜在客户和客户建立信任。开玩笑地说，我们创办了这家合规公司，这样您就不必再费心了。感谢您对此的支持，并且为听众提供了特别优惠，您可以在vanta.com/Lenny获得1000美元的折扣，非常感谢Christina，感谢您。
Any other big countertude of lessons from the journey that you think would be fun to share one thing I really love about what we do in monday is that we really love to take risks not for the sake of it but we are not afraid to do bold moves and many times when you want to do bold moves you have a lot of concerns especially when you start to be successful because you you're afraid that you are going to break everything that you built till now and for me you know one of most pivotal moments in the company life is when we decided that you know back in the days as you said we were a platform but we had to go to market of project management tool and we said listen people are doing so many different things on top of monday they're building a CLM with monday and they are building a software for managing their dev cycles and they are building so many different things.
从这段旅程中，还有其他什么重要的经验教训是你认为有趣值得分享的呢？我特别喜欢我们在 Monday 所做的一件事，那就是我们热衷于冒险，虽然不是为了冒险而冒险，但我们不害怕做大胆的决定。很多时候，当你想要采取大胆行动时，会有许多顾虑，尤其是在你开始取得成功时，因为你害怕会毁掉你之前建立的一切。对我来说，公司发展过程中最重要的时刻之一就是我们曾经决定，虽然我们最初是一个平台，但我们需要进入项目管理工具的市场。后来我们发现，人们在 Monday 上进行许多不同的事情，有人用 Monday 创建合同生命周期管理系统 (CLM)，也有人用它来管理开发周期的软件，还有许多其他不同的应用。
And we took a decision strategic decision to become like a multi product company which is built on top of this platform and we actually did something which is really counter intuitive you know the the first thought that comes to mind at least for me is why maybe not just launch a new product do it relatively on the side gradually understand if it's successful and if it would be successful double click on it but we actually did it in a very different way we actually announced five different. new products simultaneously on the same time and you know we had so many like I can't stress enough how you know how hard it is to think about it because like I remember when we talked about and doing it people say what but we are going to confuse our quantity users and it's going to have conversion and how are we going to do the marketing now when we have so many different go to markets and the sales they don't know how to navigate people to different and what about pricing so many different concerns and but we decided to do it because we really want to create a pivot a lip and I think that in that sense you know fast forward to this day like part of these products were really successful and for instance monday sales CRM is like like going faster than monday back in the days like you know and it's amazing to see it and some of them we understood that they don't need to be separate products and we collapse them back to the main product but the point is is that we managed to learn and to change both internally the company how the perception of everyone around what we are building but also externally like this move changed dramatically the competitive landscape that we live in.
我们做出了一个战略决定，转型为一个建立在此平台之上的多产品公司。我们采取了非常反直觉的措施。通常，人们（至少我是这样想的）可能会想到，为什么不先推出一个新产品，逐步观察其成功与否，如果成功，再投入更多资源。然而，我们采取了完全不同的方法，我们同时宣布推出五款新产品。当时，我们面临很多挑战，因为我记得讨论这个问题时，大家都在说这样会让用户感到困惑，影响转化率，以及我们该如何开展有那么多不同方向的市场营销活动。销售团队会面临如何引导客户选择不同产品的问题，还有定价方面的诸多困扰。尽管如此，我们还是决定这样做，因为我们希望创造一次重大的转变。说到现在，可以看到其中一些产品非常成功，例如 Monday 销售 CRM 的增长速度甚至超过了当初的 Monday。这种变化令人惊叹。有些产品我们后来意识到不需要独立存在，便又将它们整合回主产品。但重要的是，我们通过这种方法，不仅在公司内部学习和改变了构建产品的思维，也在外部大幅改变了我们所处的竞争环境。
And you know I think there was a lot of friction many people at the company were like having a lot of friction with it was really really hard but looking back it's such I'm so happy with this move and the fact that we did it like that because just imagine what would happen if we would choose one of them and it wasn't the successful products and our conclusion can be that multiportal work for us we really managed to transform the company in a very short amount of time and also to create new reality you know and I think that people need to remember that and I'm constantly reminding it to myself and I think this is something that we are constantly working you know with each other in order to make sure that we remember it that not taking world risks not making world moves it's a risk for itself okay and many times like you know people want the inertia and people want just the incremental value but if you want to do lips many times you need to let go of things that were successful for you at the past and this is very counterintuitive and we did a lot of you know a lot of mental models to help us cope with it.
你知道，我觉得当时公司里很多人都感到有很多摩擦，确实真的很难。但回头看，我对这个决定感到非常高兴，因为可以想象如果我们选择一个方案，但它最终不是成功的产品，会发生什么。而我们的结论是，多重门户战略对我们有用，我们在很短的时间内成功地转型了公司，也创造了新的现实。我认为人们需要记住这一点，我自己也经常提醒自己这一点。我觉得我们需要不断地和彼此合作，以确保我们记住这一点：不冒险、不做出战略性举动本身就是一种风险。很多时候，人们倾向于惯性，只想要增量价值，但如果你想要真正的飞跃，很多时候就需要放弃过去成功过的东西，这一点非常违背直觉。我们确实做了很多，运用了许多思维模型来帮助我们应对此类情况。
So I remember that when we were small and we had for instance like 20,000 paying customers so we said listen but most of Monday's customers are not customers of Monday yet so we need to think about them as well you know and this is something that really helps you because many times you need to do things that affect like the current success that you have and but I think it this is another very very important thing that I'm constantly reminding to myself there's kind of this other recurring theme that I'm noticing of just like thinking big and taking leaps and I love this point you made of not doing that is actually a big risk not taking risk is a big risk that's a really powerful point and it's innately scary to do something risky and so I love the push here of just like take more risks because it's so easy and this comes back again to the beginning of the conversation where you we're just like building things the way they've always been built and looking back and like what have we even done what have we done of a year of hard work and tons of features think a lot of companies get in that place where they're just like what do we like at our bb I had this exact bar and constant like what do we even shipping all these billions of experiments that are moving the numbers like what are we even doing like I don't know anything that we ship that's really exciting.
我记得我们小时候的情况，比如说当时我们有大约20,000个付费客户。我们讨论说：“现在大多数Monday的潜在客户还不是我们的客户，所以我们也需要考虑他们。” 这真的很有帮助，因为很多时候你需要做一些能够影响当前成功的事情。我经常提醒自己这一点：有一个反复出现的主题，就是要放眼长远，勇于尝试。你提到不冒险其实也是一种巨大风险，这个观点非常有力。冒险固然令人感到害怕，但我很喜欢这个鼓励---去冒更多的风险。回到我们谈话开始时的讨论，不要总是按以往的方式构建事物，不然回头看时会想：“这一年辛苦工作和开发了那么多功能，我们到底做了些什么？” 许多公司都会陷入这样的境地，像是询问自己：“我们在搞什么？” 我在BB时也有类似的感受，时常在想：“所有这些无数的实验在推动数字，但我们到底在做什么？我对我们发布的东西并没有感到特别兴奋。”
And so I think this is a really good and rendered push to just like think bigger and take and you need to take big leaps so love that is there any other big counter two-to-ve lessons before we move in a different direction I really believe that many times like spending more time on walking on something will not yield to better results or to better products and you know I think that many times like we as people that are building products for others and get to a point where the feedback that we want to get in the bottom of our heart you know is like wow what an amazing product you have built and I think this is a very bad feedback to get for initial things that you are doing because it means that you know I filled it in many ways.
所以我认为这是一个很好的推动力，让我们去思考更大的目标，并且大胆尝试。我喜欢这种精神。那么在我们转向其他方向之前，还有没有其他重要的教训可以分享呢？我真的相信很多时候花费更多的时间去完成某件事情并不会带来更好的结果或产品。我们这些一直在为他人创造产品的人，常常希望获得一种内心渴望的反馈——“哇，你做的产品真是太棒了！”然而，对于刚开始的项目来说，这种反馈其实并不好，因为这可能意味着我们在某些方面做得不够好。
The point in which you make real people use your product is really scary because you suddenly you know put your walk out there and then in order to like actually and you are afraid that do we say listen it's a lousy product it's not a good product but actually we really encourage people to get really fast production to put traps for themselves that is called by time and not by effort and you know many times I saw that more time creates more questions it creates more complications it creates more assumptions that we put for ourselves in thinking what our users need and we invent things you know and we do it all from good reasons we want people to like what we build we want them to get value but for me like this is a very important point that many times many times using like the setting traps mechanism of saying listen we have three weeks let's think about it and scope it by time it makes you extremely focused.
让真实用户使用你的产品是一件非常让人紧张的事情，因为这意味着你要将自己的工作展示出来，而你可能会担心用户会说“这是个糟糕的产品”，但实际上，我们非常鼓励人们快速进入生产阶段，为自己设置时间而不是投入过多精力的“陷阱”。有时候，我发现花费太多时间会带来更多的问题、复杂性和我们对用户需求的假设，这往往是我们凭空想出来的。我们这样做都是出于好的意图，因为我们希望自己创造的东西能被人们喜欢，并为他们带来价值。但对我来说，有一个很重要的点是，很多时候，利用设置“陷阱”的机制，比如说“我们有三周的时间来思考并根据时间来确定范围”，这会让你非常专注。
And you know this is very important because you know we really want to get feedback from customers yeah listen this is on the direction I'm still missing this and this and this and also we really love the fact of this is not a good product and I can give you a recent example you know even when now we you know we work with big customers and of course like there are different ways to implement what I said then you are a small starter but we are building like a new offering of enterprise walk management think about it like a way of managing projects the huge huge scale you know thousands of projects like tens of thousands of employees and so on so I really love using the deadline prep and it makes you focused it makes you sharper and thinking.
你知道这点很重要，因为我们真的很想从客户那里获得反馈。听听意见，对方向指出：我仍然缺少这个、这个和这个。同时我们也很喜欢这样的事实：这是一个不太好的产品。我可以给你一个最近的例子，即使在我们目前与大客户合作时，也是如此。当然，实施我所说的有不同的方法，然后作为一个小型初创公司，但我们正在构建一个新的企业工作管理产品。可以把它想象成一种以大规模管理项目的方法，比如数以千计的项目和成千上万的员工等等。我真的很喜欢利用截止日期的准备工作，它能让你更专注、更敏锐地思考。
We just had a recent example with the offering I was telling you about of like enterprise walk management managing projects the scale and you know this is an enterprise product so you have all the reasons in the world to say no I can't really sit yet I need more time I need to do more things they won't use it they need this and this and this and I think that we actually released the first like alpha version to them and we got a feedback of listen guys this is premature we need more like more comprehensive value but we got exactly the feedback of what and this is priceless and my response to the team says well done like I think you did an amazing job in like releasing it and making sure because you know many times being so afraid of releasing it and like thinking if I just have one two three more weeks and it will be the product.
我们刚刚有一个例子，就是我之前跟你提到的一个关于企业项目管理的产品，这是一款企业级产品，因此你有许多理由去推迟使用，比如说：“我现在还不能用，我需要更多的时间，还需要做更多的准备工作，他们不会用的，他们需要这个需要那个。” 但实际上，我们向他们发布了首个测试版，并收到了反馈，说：“这还不成熟，我们需要更全面的功能。” 这种反馈对我们来说非常宝贵。我对团队的回复是：“干得好，我认为你们做得非常出色，及时发布了产品并确保得到了反馈。” 因为很多时候，我们会因为害怕发布不成熟的产品而犹豫不决，总想着如果再多等几周，产品就会更完美。
I think it's not it's not true this is such good advice it resonates so much with recent other conversations I've had so just to clarify what you're saying basically you have a time box when you say traps it's basically a set amount of time we're gonna spend three weeks on this feature and if it doesn't if it we don't hit the three weeks we just cut scope essentially is that idea I think it's it's like this is the basic version of it yeah but now for us we really want and we really love doing doing it as an exercise for ourselves for instance let's say now as a public company we say listen we're working on something we want to announce it on the next turning and put a trap for ourselves why because again it makes you sharp it makes you super focused about things and you know I think that in many ways this results in a much better product because you're not building things that you invented you're staying really true to what your users needs the real you know core of the value and it's really funny to see the dynamics of teams you know when they are planning.
我认为这不是不真实的说法，这个建议非常好，与我最近的一些对话产生了共鸣。为了澄清你的意思，基本上你说的“时间框”就是设定一个固定的时间，比如我们计划用三周时间来开发这个功能，如果在三周内无法完成，我们就缩小范围，就是这个意思吗？我觉得这就是基本的版本。不过对我们来说，我们真的很想尝试，也喜欢将其作为一种练习。举个例子，现在作为一家上市公司，我们可能会说，我们正在开发某个项目，想在下一个季度公布，并给自己设定一个“陷阱”。为什么这样做呢？因为这样能让我们更加敏锐、更加专注。很多情况下，这会带来更好的产品，因为你不是在构建自己臆想的内容，而是忠于用户的真正需求和价值核心。而且观察团队在规划时的动态也很有趣。
You know from the bottom up so it starts like you know with something that like let's say you've done everything great okay you have the opportunity you understand you have the KPIs everything is in place but now you're starting to plan it and suddenly people are raising you know concerns and issues and it becomes a sport to say what can go wrong and like being filled driven and then you tend to you know protect yourself and adding more content and more corner and then when you see what happens it's actually like it's going to be shipped in two years and then we say okay no okay we have earnings in two months what can we ship to these earnings and let's put a tab.
从头到尾了解情况，比如说，你把一切都做得很出色，你有机会并且理解关键绩效指标，一切就绪。但现在你开始规划时，突然人们开始提出各种担忧和问题，变成了一种找错误的运动，大家都很消极。于是你倾向于保护自己，增加更多内容和细节。然后你发现，结果要两年后才能交付。之后，我们说，好吧，我们在两个月后要公布盈利，那么我们能在这之前交付什么呢？让我们贴一个标签。
And then you suddenly see the conversation changes first of all it makes everyone really focused on what's the core of the value and it removes all the theoretical discussions that people have and things like that and you know the results are amazing and you need to remember when you do it you need to continue afterwards if you like according to feedbacks and and not let it go just but what you did in the first version but in many ways I really love the fact that you know the first version get a feedback which is not everything is perfect because if this is the feedback it means that we build too much and probably it's not focused product enough.
然后你会突然发现，对话发生了变化。首先，它让每个人都真正专注于价值的核心，并去除人们之间所有的理论讨论。你会发现结果令人惊讶，并且在你进行这些改变时，你需要根据反馈继续优化，而不是只停留在第一版。很多时候，我非常欣赏第一版获得这样的反馈：并不是所有东西都是完美的，因为如果反馈是完美的，那就意味着我们做得太多了，可能产品的重点就不够明确。
And when you build a lot of features this can be like you know the a draft by a thousand cuts because in each corner of the product you add more than you need like yeah there's so much here that connects the other conversation we just had we had a car of misruff and he's CEO of captions and he's made this point that if people aren't complaining about your product like you want to see people complaining because that means they care like there's something there that they care about if they're not here and he complains they could care less about what you're building and that's not that's a bad sign I really love that.
当你开发很多功能时，这可能就像是“千刀万剐”，因为你在产品的各个角落都添加了超过所需的东西。我们刚才的谈话有很多相通之处。我们和Captions公司的CEO，misruff，进行了交流。他提到，如果没有人对你的产品抱怨，那其实是不好的迹象。因为人们抱怨说明他们在乎，有一些他们关心的东西。如果没有人抱怨，那可能意味着他们对你正在构建的东西毫不关心，这可不是什么好兆头。我非常赞同这个观点。
Yeah their company actually goes to the extreme which are describing every engineerships a feature a marketable feature every week that's their pace I really connected to it and by the way about user feedback I think you know it's really it's really nice because like many times you know people associate like they only measure themselves by use of feedback and a specific point and I think this is also maybe you know something that is a counting intuitive not every customer feedback is the feedback that will drive you to the you know to the end result of the best product out there there are many aspects to it.
是的，他们的公司确实做得很极致，每周都会将每一个工程功能描述为一个可销售的特色，而这正是他们的节奏。我感觉很有共鸣。顺便说一下，关于用户反馈，我认为这真的很好，因为很多时候，人们只根据用户反馈和特定的观点来评估自己。我认为这也是一个值得深思的地方——并不是每一个客户反馈都能引导我们达到打造出最佳产品的终点。在这个过程中，还有许多其他因素需要考虑。
And I can share you know just one example about us we as you know in the beginning of the company we for instance didn't want to have a free trial and part of it is that we really wanted to hear feedback about a product only from people that the product means something to them that the best proxy for that is that they are paying because it means to get real value and you know in that sense it helps us it helped us at the beginning to be to stay super focused about like you know separating the width from the shaft with the the customer's feedback so I think it's a super important point and we need to take customer feedback in context.
我们可以分享一个关于我们的例子，比如说在公司成立初期，我们并不想提供免费试用。其中一个原因是我们希望只听取那些对产品真正有意义的人的反馈，而判断这种意义的最好方式就是他们是否愿意付费。因为支付意味着他们感受到了真实的价值。从这个角度来说，这种策略在一开始帮助我们保持高度专注，通过顾客反馈来区分哪些意见真正有用。因此，我认为在收集和考虑顾客反馈时，把它放在合适的背景下是非常重要的。
The other really interesting point here that you're making is this idea we had I think I mentioned this already Ryan Singer is the creator of the Smith that shape up which is very centered around appetites over deadlines there's so much like so many everyone listening to this has probably gone through an exercise where like let's redo our landing page and it's like yeah it'll probably have some impact let's spend some time on this and ends up taking like six months and everyone's like why did we spend six months redoing this friggin landing page like look I would have given it three weeks and then moved on.
这里你提到的另一个非常有趣的观点是，我们之前提到过的一个想法：Ryan Singer 是 Shape Up 方法的创始人，这个方法更注重需求而不是截止日期。很多人可能都经历过这样的事情，比如重做一个登录页面，大家都会觉得这可能会有一些效果，于是我们花时间去做，结果却花了六个月。最后大家都觉得：为什么花了六个月时间重做这个页面？明明可以给它三周时间，然后再继续推进其他事情。
And the way to do that is you just commit upfront we will spend three weeks on this deal as much done as we can in three weeks and then we'll move on people talk about this very hard to actually do so I love that's how you actually approach shouldn't these bigger features you work on. Do you guys practice shape up by the chance or is this just like a thing you do and no actually I wasn't okay if you knew if it but I definitely going to check it out yeah okay cool yeah it's a it's a whole method and we'll have I think the episode right before this is actually that episode.
翻译如下：
要做到这一点，你只需要事先承诺，我们将在这笔交易上花三周时间，尽可能在这三周内完成，然后我们就会继续前进。人们常说这很难做到，所以我很喜欢这种处理方式，尤其是当你在处理这些大型功能时。你们有没有尝试过使用Shape Up方法，还是这只是你们自己的一种做法？其实我以前对这个方法不是很了解，但我肯定会去了解一下。好的，太好了，这是一整套方法。我想就在我们这次之前的一期节目中详细介绍过这个方法。
Okay let me go in a different direction and kind of keeps striking lessons from this journey because I was a really fruitful place to go so let me ask you this question what's one thing that you wish you'd known before stepping into the role you're in today this is an interesting question I think I you know many aspects to it and maybe if I'll take the personal aspect so you know I've been in charge of like the the product and technology from from like sense I joined the company but with that my role has changed I think like dozens of times like I feel I'm very fortunate to walk in one company but actually walking dozens of different companies think about the scale that we talked about like each point is a different it's actually a different company and a different role and different challenge and I think that you know something that maybe is kind of kind of intuitive personally for me was that in many of the phases that we undergold with I felt that what got me to this phase is not necessarily what's going to make me successful in the next phase.
好的，让我换个方向，从这段旅程中提取一些教训，因为这是个很有收获的地方。所以让我问你一个问题：在进入你如今这个职位之前，你希望自己知道什么呢？这是个很有趣的问题，我觉得它涉及很多层面，如果从个人角度来看，我一直负责产品和技术，自从我加入公司以来，我的角色已经改变了好几十次。我觉得自己很幸运，虽然在一家公司工作，但仿佛在经历几十家不同的公司。想一想我们所讨论的规模，每个阶段都是一个全新的公司、全新的角色和全新的挑战。我觉得对我个人而言，有些直觉上明白的事情是，在我们经历的许多阶段中，我感到之前让我达到这个阶段的东西，并不一定能让我在下一个阶段中获得成功。
If I want to be even more blunt you know they will like personally times when suddenly I saw how my biggest you know strength for instance like mastering all the details and having everything in my head knowing exactly what's happening on every corner of what we do this is was probably something that gave a lot of value when we were small but as we got bigger I think like it suddenly created you know even the damage you know continue to do the same thing and in many ways it takes time to do this realization and I think that a good advice that I would love to have is that don't be afraid again to let go or things that you think are superpowers many times you're superpowers that brought you to this point and made you successful many times you think that if you let it go you won't be successful and it's frightening but really feel that you need to constantly evaluate what your control is actually is actually what what is the role like and what is needed in order to be successful in it and not continue with the inertia and this is something that I wish someone has done me yeah it took me time in many cases you know many cases that did it too late.
如果我想说得更直接，你会明白，有些时候我突然意识到，我最大的优势，比如精通细节、对所有事情了如指掌，知道我们做的每件事的方方面面——这些在我们公司规模较小时确实带来了很大价值。但随着公司逐渐壮大，这种做法开始产生负面影响，继续保持这种方式反而有害。许多时候需要时间来意识到这一点，我认为，一个很好的建议是，不要害怕放手那些你认为是超能力的东西。很多时候，这些超能力让你走到了现在的位置，并取得了成功，你会认为一旦放手就无法继续成功，这种想法令人恐惧。但实际上，你需要不断评估自己控制力的实际意义，以及在这个过程中什么是成功所真正需要的，而不是继续凭惯性行事。我希望有人曾经给过我这样的建议，因为在很多情况下，我意识到这些为时已晚。
Is there anything that helped you realize this or get good at this is it like coaching is it just doing it and surviving and failing and really oh I see I think all of the above I think that one sign for that for me was that in many cases I felt I'm doing a very good job but then people like it can be like I'll give you an example okay like for instance doing a company like leadership QBRs okay I call telebusiness reviews so when we just started it with it very early you know I would actually tell about everything and you know I remember one meeting that I went out of the meeting and I say wow I really managed to you know convey everything and explain everything and very like in a very articulated way and like one of my colleagues in the college the ship team said why I didn't understand anything like what is the bottom line of all of this and you know it was like you suddenly realized that what you thought is good is not necessarily what the other people needs for you at this point and you know like after understanding that I went and asked like what would be beneficial for you we said listen I want to keep in my head like the freeing most meaningful things that you are currently facing with I don't want to hear everything and you know like it's hard but but this was a point for me that I realized that I need to change and I need to change something and the like the requirements are different and like at the beginning you know I tried to say but listen it's very it's important that you know like you you're sticking to it right but we need to let it go sometimes.
有没有什么帮助你意识到这一点或在这方面变得擅长？是教练还是只是不断地实践、经历挫折，然后突然意识到一些东西？我觉得上述所有的因素都有帮助。对我来说，一个标志就是，我常常觉得自己做得很好，但别人的反馈可能截然不同。我给你举个例子，比如召开公司领导层季度业务回顾会。当我们刚开始做这项工作时，我会详细介绍所有事情。我记得有一次会议结束后，我觉得自己真的很好地传达和解释了所有信息，并且表达得非常清晰。然而，我的一位领导团队的同事却说：“我什么都没听懂，最终结论是什么呢？”这是我突然意识到的时刻，自己认为很好的东西，未必是别人所需要的。在明白这一点后，我去问大家：“你们觉得什么对你们更有帮助？”他们说：“我只想记住你现在面临的三件最重要的事情，而不是听到所有的事情。”这让我意识到我需要做出改变，需求是不同的。一开始，我坚持认为自己的方式很重要，但有时候我们确实需要学会放手。
And think like from the beginning there's this phrase that someone shared on this podcast once where in as you're rising your career you often go from the person that is pitching leaders on something to the person being pitched and that's a really weird place to move from you know having to learn how to be give great feedback delegate let go of things and I love that this this is a good example that yeah since we're getting a little vulnerable and open about stuff I want to try this question you haven't you've done a lot of podcasts and don't have interviews you've been all over the place is there anything you haven't shared anywhere else that might be helpful to share her about the journey you've been on.
从一开始就有一个短语，是某人在播客中分享过的，提到在职业生涯提升过程中，我们常常从向领导推销想法的人，变成被推销的人。这种转变确实很奇妙，因为需要学习如何给予有效的反馈、委派任务并放手。我很喜欢这个例子。既然我们现在变得有点脆弱并开放地讨论事情，我想尝试这个问题：你做了很多播客和采访，走遍了很多地方，那么在你所经历的旅程中，有什么你还没有分享过，但可能会对别人有所帮助的故事吗？
Yeah so maybe continuing with the same point you know like it's a crazy journey and it's crazy personal journey if you think about it like I remember Roy once said if someone would have interviewed me to a public company who off you know like I would say 10 billion dollars in market cap and managing 2500 employees I'm not sure that I would interview myself and get myself to the job and I can you know for me there were a lot of moments and it's constantly happening.
好的，继续说这个点，你知道，这真是一段疯狂的旅程，如果你好好想想，这也是一段极其个人化的旅程。我记得罗伊曾经说过，如果有人问我是否愿意成为一家市值100亿美元、管理2500名员工的上市公司的领头人，我不确定我会选择自己担任这个职位。对我来说，这样的时刻有很多，而且这样的情况还在不断发生。
And you know when things you know going sideways and things doesn't work and you see so many things are breaking down and you know you can be on the same day super happy and suddenly on the lowest point there is and I can share you know many times I have I've asked myself like whether I'm the right person to lead it whether we need like someone that is coming with all the experience to this phase and I remember like I talked to the air there with a run it tell me it told me something listen first of all as the one who built it no one would be able to do it like you and I think it's an important you know think to remember when times are tough.
当事情不顺利，出现问题时，你可能会看到很多事情都在崩溃。你可能同一天里感到非常快乐，但瞬间又跌入谷底。我可以分享，很多时候我都会问自己，我是否是领导这件事的合适人选，或者是否需要找一个经验丰富的人来应对这个阶段。我记得有一次，我对着空气谈心，它告诉我：“首先，作为这个项目的创建者，没有人能够像你一样胜任。” 我想，当时局艰难时，这是一件重要的事情，值得铭记。
I really believe that you know if you have the passion and if you have the will and and if you are willing to do the hard work you know order to constantly adjust and evolve and you know to be vulnerable and also you know to say about yourself like I didn't understand something now I need to learn it and I need to do things differently you know it's a very important point if you want to do this kind of of journey and it's hard and something I can share you know I can reassure everyone that are listening to us you know if you're feeling it you're not the only one everyone are feeling it from once in a while.
我确实相信，如果你有热情、有意愿，并且愿意努力工作，不断调整和进步，并且勇于承认自己的不足，比如承认“我不懂，需要去学习和改变做事方式”，那么这在这样的一段旅程中是非常重要的。虽然这很困难，但我可以与大家分享并且安慰那些正在听我们说话的人，如果你有这样的感受，你并不孤单，大家都会时不时有这样的感觉。
Be confident about yourself be vulnerable in order to learn and to evolve and I really love to do like a mental you know mental exercise of like saying like we we said about the product so let's say I'm I'm a Daniel of like next six months how do I want to look back on these six months and what do I want to say about myself that I learned that I evolved and this helped you get out from the state of like everything is okay I'm good and it makes you like want to learn and want to evolve and and also like staying doing mode like I don't believe in like I think the one one thing that really characterized me is that I can be like very you know it can be very difficult and very challenging time but on the next day I'm already bouncing back with energy and you know the like to come and do things and win it.
自信面对自己，并在学习和成长中保持脆弱。我喜欢进行一种“精神练习”，就像我们谈论产品一样。假设我是六个月后的自己，我希望如何回顾这六个月？我希望那个时候我能说自己学到了什么，成长了什么。这种思考方式能帮助你摆脱“现在一切都不错”的状态，让你更有渴望去学习和成长，并保持行动力。我不相信放弃，有时可能会遇到非常困难和富有挑战的时刻，但第二天我常常能满怀能量地重新振作，继续努力并取得成功。
And you know there are a lot of things that we as leaders needs to do in order to help ourselves to keep like this mental you know state so I like to run I like to do things that are unrelated to work in order to get back to my center but then quickly bounce back and to really believe in myself in the team around me and so this is yeah this is something maybe very personal but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one you know feeling it.
作为领导者，我们需要做很多事情来帮助自己保持这种精神状态。我喜欢跑步，喜欢做一些与工作无关的事情，以便重新找到自己的平衡，然后迅速反弹，继续相信自己和周围的团队。这可能是个人的感受，但我相信我并不是唯一有这种感受的人。
I appreciate you sharing that there's a post that I did a long time ago with a coach and she it was about imposter syndrome and she made this really powerful point that like you are actually an imposter in the role you're in you've never done this before like most people are imposter in the role they've never been as chief product officer in a lot of cases they've never led teams this large and first of all just realize that you actually are and second of all that's okay and most people are like you said and then third of all this advice you shared about it you can work through that it's really powerful just like no many people feel this way work hard because a really important part of this just like no there's another day and that you can bounce back remember that everyone are people no one is born to be like in the world that is currently at.
我很感谢你分享了我很久以前和一位教练一起写的一篇关于冒名顶替综合症的文章。她提出了一个非常有力的观点：你确实是在做一个以前从未做过的角色扮演，比如说，很多人第一次担任首席产品官或者第一次领导如此大的团队。在这种情况下，首先要认识到你确实是这样，其次，这没关系，因为大多数人都和你一样。然后，你分享的建议很有帮助，你可以度过这个阶段。知道有很多人与我们有相同的感受，努力工作是很重要的一部分。要记住，还有明天，你可以重新振作起来。每个人都是普通人，没有人生来就适应当前的世界。
And you know another thing that you know in monday we are scaling so fast so even people that are coming with experience and I had you know the chance to see it over and over again because we're going so fast each one of us will get to a point which is the first time he's doing it sooner or later so experience matters and we have like a lot of people that are coming and bringing spins from the outside but also remember that and remember that. everyone of people and like no one was born in a position yeah and the company's like like yours it's I've people have described it as like every six months you have a new job exactly exactly we had Cheryl Sandberg once did a talk that I was at were people are complaining we're we're just like so much is changing we're growing every the culture is not as strong as it was and there's just like things not working our processes are no it was hiring is hard and she's just like this is the problems you want because you're growing very fast and that's very good versus if you were not growing it'd be much more painful and hard so please be thankful to see the problems you're facing.
你知道吗，在周一我们发展得如此之快，即使那些有经验的人也面临挑战。我有幸多次看到这种情况，因为我们发展得太快了，早晚每个人都会遇到他们第一次经历的情况，所以经验很重要。我们确实有很多人带来了外部的新视角，但请记住，没有人天生就处在某个职位上。像你们这样的公司，有人形容说每六个月就像是换了一份新工作一样。曾经有一次，我听过谢丽尔·桑德伯格的一场演讲，当时很多人抱怨说变化太快，我们的文化没有以前那么强大，很多流程和招聘都存在问题。她说这正是我们想要的问题，因为快速发展本身就是件好事。如果没有增长，那才会更加痛苦和困难。所以，请为你们面对的问题感到感恩。
I couldn't the game oh you talked about things breaking along the way and things you have to deal with is there an example of something I love these stories of just like maybe a moment of crisis along the journey where you thought like okay things are gonna fall apart this is over see you everywhere yeah to be honest we have so many and like but again this is the problems that you are lucky to have and but yeah maybe I'll give you an example like you know I remember this day that someone from our customer success team is approaching and say listen Daniel we have a spike in performance issues with in the board and you know again like our board is this table of like think about it like of data and on each time we add new functionality and we make the platform or mature people are taking it to the extreme.
我不能理解这个游戏哦，你提到了一路上遇到的问题和需要应对的事情，有没有一个例子？我很喜欢听这些故事，就像是旅途中经历的危机时刻，当时你可能觉得一切要崩溃了，一切都完了。老实说，我们有很多这样的时刻，这些是我们幸运拥有的问题。不过，我可以给你举个例子。我记得有一天，我们的客户成功团队的一名成员过来找我说：“听着，丹尼尔，我们的系统性能问题激增了。”我们的系统就像一个数据表，每次我们添加新功能，让平台更加完善的时候，人们就会把它推向极限。
So if you look back eight years ago so this kind of tables usually had like let's say five columns and 100 rows and if you look about it today it's like hundreds of columns you know tens of thousands of flows and like so performance was always a challenge and struggle like and making sure that everything works as smoothly and this is also a value to us we really believe that performance is the number one feature it makes people use your system so you know we came to me and I remember like suddenly seen the spike in the tickets you know it's super hard right like you say wow it's something super hard you don't necessarily have a magic wand of like fixing it immediately and what we did we actually again connected everyone to it the first thing I did was like taking this graph to everyone in the team and showing and thinking together what we can do and we did a lot of things and we worked really hard and we managed to make this situation better.
那么，如果回顾八年前，那时这种表格通常有五列和100行。而如今，表格可能会有上百列、成千上万的行。因此，性能一直是一个挑战和难题，确保一切顺利运行对我们来说非常重要。我们坚信性能是最重要的功能，因为好的性能使得人们愿意使用你的系统。我记得，那时我们突然看到工单数量激增，这确实是个大难题。面对这个问题，我们没有一蹴而就的解决方法。因此，我们将整个团队召集起来，我首先把相关数据图表展示给大家，并一同思考解决方案。经过一番努力和辛勤工作，我们终于改善了这种情况。
And you know and then time passed by and you are like continuing and then it happened again and I can share that on the first on the third time I said okay we had enough like we need to think totally different in a different way and back in the days this is where I think like many of our core like long-term projects have gone the signature one would be MondayDB it's like it's an name we use for like an underlying data infrastructure that we've been building in the last three years or so so think about a very small team and a very small startup I remember the day that we said listen we need few of our most talented people they are now not going to contribute features anymore we are putting them on like a separate like a place and let's think and solve this problem while thinking about 100x.
你知道，时间就这样过去了，你继续做自己的事，然而同样的事情再次发生。我可以分享，在第三次的时候，我说好了，我们已经经历太多了，需要以完全不同的方式去思考。在过去的日子里，我认为我们的许多核心和长期项目都在此刻迎来了转折，其中最有代表性的就是MondayDB。MondayDB是我们在过去三年左右时间里构建的一个底层数据基础设施。想象一下，一个非常小的团队和初创公司。我还记得我们那天说，我们需要把几个最有才华的人集中起来，他们现在不会再去开发新功能，而是要专门研究如何解决这个问题，并设想实现100倍的增长。
And you know we really like in many ways so different from what we talked about in so many other of the examples right and I think now we said listen instead of being like fixing an issue we want this to be our competitive edge we have a very unique product architecture where everyone can build their own schemas of the table and you know it's like a crazy thing in terms of technology behind it we want to do something that will not only solve the problem but also will serve us as a competitive edge and we took a huge risk because you know we took a lot of people and put them aside for that or like not a lot of people but them very talented people and I think in retrospect by the way we released MondayDB I think one and a half years ago like the first version it did a huge change of customers and in many ways this is what like actually makes us today a platform which is enterprise grade.
我们在很多方面都和之前讨论过的例子大不相同。我们认为，与其着眼于解决某个问题，我们更希望把这当作我们的竞争优势。我们有一个非常独特的产品架构，每个人都可以建立自己的数据表结构。从技术角度来看，这是一件疯狂的事情。我们想做的不仅是解决问题，还要让它成为我们的竞争优势。我们承担了巨大的风险，因为我们为了这个项目，把一些非常有才华的人投入其中。回想起来，大约一年半前，我们推出了 MondayDB 的第一个版本，这对客户产生了巨大的影响。在很多方面，这实际上是让我们今天成为一个企业级平台的原因。
And so my lesson from that is that if you feel about something it is strategic you need to not only solve problems but be super proactive and also again like this contradicts the fact of like what are the goals what are we going to achieve because you need to lean on like something which is strategic so with the everything that we said at the beginning of the conversation there is also things. that you need to do because this is the company you want to build this is the product that you want to build and you don't necessarily get the you know looks of getting convictions from things that happen in the past or from data you need to just go with your intuition and take this risk and I'm super happy that we did it yeah but this is an example where things really broke you know and what we did to fit there's a couple other stories of crisis I'm thinking back to and they're all seem to be a database started reaching capacity and we are about to fall apart because their growth was too fast.
从中我学到的经验是，如果你认为某件事具有战略意义，你不仅需要解决问题，还要超前主动地采取行动。这有时可能会与设定目标和达成成就的计划产生矛盾，因为你需要依赖一些战略性的东西。结合我们在对话开始时提到的一切，你还需要做一些事情，因为这是你想要打造的公司和产品。有时候，你不能仅仅依赖过去的经验或数据来获得信心，而需要依靠直觉并承担风险。我很高兴我们这样做了，不过这也是一个事情真的出错的例子。我回想起几次危机，其中一个就是我们的数据库容量快要达到极限，因为我们的增长速度太快，眼看就要崩溃了。
So it's an interesting lesson for people to hear just like try to anticipate this a little more and sounds like that's what you realize is like let's think 100x from now not not just like a couple years from now there's it reminds me of so Brian Johnson he's this dude that's trying to live forever as long as he can and he makes this really interesting point that I promise connects to what you're talking about which is he's like okay what is what is your goal he asked everyone what's your life goal and so they're like oh I want to do this and this and that okay to accomplish that the base goal you're not even thinking about is you need to not die and that's actually the number one goal everyone should have don't die and I feel like that's infrastructure that companies is like you have all these metrics and goals but really the goal that underneath that as your infrastructure needs to scale so it makes sense why this is outside of like okay we always metrics and goals like not necessarily treating it as a as a tax or as a risk but rather like you know for for our offering like as a platform this is like actually in now one of our core advantages.
这段话的中文翻译如下：
所以，这对人们来说是一个有趣的教训，就是多加推测和预见未来的发展趋势。这就像你意识到的那样：我们要考虑到未来的100倍，而不仅仅是几年后的情况。这让我想到了布莱恩·约翰逊，一个努力想尽可能长寿的人。他提出了一个很有意思的观点，与我们正在讨论的话题有关。他会问别人：“你的生活目标是什么？”大家回答说想做这个或那个。然后他会指出，实现这些目标的前提是“你必须保持健康活着”。这实际上应该是每个人的首要目标：不要死去。我觉得这就像公司的基础设施：你有各种指标和目标，但真正背后的目标是你的基础设施需要能够扩展。这也解释了为什么我们不仅仅是把这当作任务或风险，而是视为我们的核心优势之一，不管是在指标上还是在目标上。
So it's super important as well that value to customers comes in different ways shapes and forms and you need to to think about the experience and not only about like you know and many times the general experience start with things that are reliable performance that you can download them and suddenly you even use them differently because they are fast so I think this is another important like aspect to it that's such a good point when you have a problem some that's slowing down or might crumble the company just not flipping it from how do we just put the bandaid here it's how do we turn this into a strategic advantage if we really invest the time yeah I like that a lot.
确保为客户创造价值是非常重要的，这种价值可以通过多种方式展现。我们需要考虑的是客户体验，而不仅仅是产品本身。通常，一个好的体验始于可靠的性能，比如快速的下载速度，这样用户可能会以不同的方式使用产品，因为它运转得很快。我认为这是一个非常重要的方面。当出现问题时，不要只想着如何应急处理，而是考虑如何将其转化为战略优势，这样我们如果真的投入时间，就能得到更大的价值。我非常赞同这种观点。
Okay to start to close out our conversation I'm going to take us to AI corner which is a recurring segment I tried to get to is more and more with this podcast and the question is how of you what's an example of using AI tools in your day to day work to do better work to do faster work that you think might be helpful to other folks and maybe I start with a personal one you know like I'm it's not it's not about work but I think it really shows that for me it was like a moment of like really saying this this has so much potential in it so I actually prepared myself for a marathon and unfortunately I got injured in my knee so yeah so I went to do an MRI scan and I finished the scan and they gave me this disc which the results and then they said listen you need to schedule a doctor appointment five days from now okay I said I do it put it in Chagy Pitian ask for like the results and explanation of flying by line what what does it mean.
好的，为了结束我们的对话，我将带我们进入一个名为“AI角”的常设栏目。我试图在这档播客里越来越多地讨论人工智能。今天的问题是：在日常工作中，你是如何利用AI工具来提高工作效率和质量的？有没有哪些例子可以对其他人有帮助的？或许我可以从一个个人经历开始，虽然不是关于工作的，但它真的让我感受到AI的巨大潜力。我在准备参加马拉松的时候，不幸膝盖受了伤。因此，我去做了核磁共振扫描。扫描完后，他们给了我一张光盘，上面是检查结果，然后他们说，我需要在五天后预约医生。于是我将光盘里的信息放入ChatGPT，逐行请求解释这些结果的具体含义。
And then I of course went to the doctor and said this are the results but I think like for me you know this is a this is something that I was really happy about using it and it also opens my mind a lot because I think that if you think about it from the product perspective and this is how we think about AI in Monday the technology is amazing yeah you you can do so much with it but you know there's still the part of like productizing it because every person that I talked with him about this example like with enthusiasm he said how did you think about putting your MRI there and I said I don't know like I just did but this is a all like creating products that actually allow people to leverage this technology and more on the website you know I use it a lot.
然后我当然去看了医生，并告诉他这些是结果，但我觉得对我来说，这是一个让我非常开心的体验，这也让我对很多事情敞开了思维。我认为如果从产品的角度来看待这件事，这就像我们在 Monday 公司看待人工智能的方式一样，这项技术非常了不起，你可以做很多事情。但仍然需要将它产品化，每个我跟他谈论这个例子的人都充满热情地说：“你是怎么想到把你的核磁共振结果放进去的？”而我说：“我也不知道，我就是这么做了。” 这都是关于创造真正让人们能够利用这项技术的产品。此外，我在网站上也用了很多这种技术。
I think like for me like one recent example I would say is like we really worked hard towards like determining the pricing for AI offering and that I was mentioning earlier and just in like two hours I was managed I managed to get a full perspective on what everyone else are doing you know and we have analysts and we have product managers since but the fact that I was independent and managed to get like you know the initial thoughts and like all the information ingest a bit it was mind blowing.
我觉得吧，就拿我最近的一个例子来说好了，我们为了确定AI产品的定价真的下了很大功夫，我之前也提到过。仅仅在两个小时内，我就能够全面了解其他公司的做法。虽然我们有分析师和产品经理，但让我感到震撼的是，我自己独立地取得了初步的见解并获取了所有相关信息。
So I used it a lot in order to understand things that are like very extensive like what the competitors are doing what is the history of this and that and I think it helped me a lot in that sense these are awesome examples and is this all chat GPT is that the tool choice.
因此，我经常使用它来了解一些非常广泛的内容，比如竞争对手在做什么、某事或某事的历史等等。我认为在这方面它对我帮助很大。这些都是很棒的例子。而这些都是使用ChatGPT这个工具来实现的吗？
And you know it's hard we I have like my own periods right now it's changing from one week to another and this do actually with chat GPT here very cool the first example of my wife does all the time my mother-in-law was in hospital and we're waiting for the doctor to show up and she just put the chart in chat GPT is like what's with the problem and it's exactly what he told us and it feels like like it feels like we're in a world now we're an engineer without say cursor or these tools is just not like that's not that's not possible anymore and it feels like now with going to doctors is like if you don't do this and see what it says like you're missing out on a big gap there's this near time story and if you've seen where they actually compared a doctor's analysis versus a doctor plus chat GPT plus just chat GPT and guess guess what was the the best most accurate diagnosis yeah I want to say chat GPT you know but that's exactly what it was not even a doctor with chat GPT you know.
这段英文大意是：现在的生活很难预测变化，我的时间表经常在一周内就发生变化。有趣的是，我们经常用Chat GPT来解决问题。比如，我的妻子经常这样做。有一次，我的岳母住院了，我们在等医生时，我的妻子把她的病历输入了Chat GPT，几乎得到和医生一样的解答。现在感觉工程师没有这些工具（像光标这样的）几乎是不可能的，就像看病时不通过这种方式查看结果一样，会错过很多重要信息。近期有一个故事，他们将医生的分析、医生加Chat GPT以及仅用Chat GPT的结果进行比较，猜猜哪个诊断最准确？没错，就是Chat GPT，甚至比医生加Chat GPT的结果还要好。
I'll tell you I'll tell you a story about it so in the MRI you know I did it because I wanted to go ski and I didn't know if I can do it or not so as chat GPT and he said older recommendations and what I need to do and so on and then when I was at the doctor I said I asked him the same question can I do ski I said I don't know I never ski you know so it's not only about like getting the information straight away and getting accuracy it's the fact that you can continue deep dive with it and this is something that also like when I was in the pricing you know it's not only the bit of information but the fact that you can continue and continue and continue it's like it's definitely super super impressive and it doesn't get annoyed it doesn't get bored it's and it's very supportive always with good intent or not but yeah so kind amazing.
我给你讲一个故事。有一次做MRI检查的时候，我告诉你我做了这个检查，因为我想去滑雪，但不知道自己能不能滑。所以我问了ChatGPT，它给出了建议和我需要做的事情等等。然后当我去看医生的时候，我也问了他同样的问题：“我能滑雪吗？”他说他不知道，因为他从来没滑过雪。所以这不仅仅是获取信息的准确性问题，还因为你可以深入了解相关内容。这种深入探讨让我印象深刻。当我在定价方面需要帮助时，也是一样的，不仅仅是获取一点信息的事，而是你可以不断深入下去。这样实在让人印象深刻。它不会感到厌烦，也不会无聊，而且总是很有支持性，不论是出于善意还是其他原因，真的非常了不起。
Okay well Daniel we've we've covered a lot of ground this was extremely fun before we get to our very exciting lightning round is there anything else that you wanted to share any other nuggets of wisdom you want to leave listeners with I think that in many ways like the things that we managed to achieve in monday is due to the great people and culture that we have and you know on early days we used to take it for granted in a way that not the people but the culture the fact that everyone understand it the fact that everyone are practicing it and then you say okay culture is like something that you can put your fingers on but now as we scale like I really see how this is what actually drives everything forward.
好的，Daniel，这次谈话我们讨论了很多内容，非常有趣。在进入非常激动人心的快问快答环节之前，你还有什么想分享的吗？有没有什么智慧的结晶想留给听众的？
我认为，在很多方面，我们在 Monday 取得的成就是归功于我们出色的团队和文化。早期的时候，我们曾经有点想当然地认为这不是因为个体而是因为整体的文化影响。大家都理解并实践这种文化。有人会说文化像是无法具体捉摸的东西，但现在随着公司规模的扩大，我真正看到这种文化是如何推动一切向前发展的。
Yeah so maybe just to say like on a personal note that a huge part of how I see my role is about like the people and also about how we walk together and what kind of an environment we want to build to ourselves and we talked a lot about it during the episode but you know I really feel that I can't underestimate on how meaningful it is and how like grateful I am that I'm working with such talented people and doing what I love that's awesome I bet we could do a whole other episode on just culture and what you've learned building a culture with the culture is like in monday but we got to we got to get to our very exciting lightning round Daniel are you ready I'm ready.
好的，从个人角度来说，我觉得我的角色很大一部分在于人与人之间的关系，以及我们如何共同前进，构建我们想要的环境。在这一集中我们谈了很多这个话题，但我真的觉得我不能低估这件事的重要性，也非常感激能和这么有才华的人一起工作，做我热爱的事情，这真是太棒了。我觉得我们可以做一期专门关于文化主题的节目，探讨你在建立文化方面的经验，以及在Monday公司里文化是什么样的。但我们得进行一个非常激动人心的快问快答环节了，Daniel，你准备好了吗？我准备好了。
All right so I've got five questions for you first question is what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people the first one I would say is like is there no world source book by Netflix back in the days we used even the slides but I think we took a lot of inspiration out of it and I think that although we have different cultures many of the things around like you know execution like excellent people and so on are things that like I can really resonate with and this is something that we really like to give people away after talking about our culture and so on to get inspiration also from other cultures.
好的，我有五个问题要问你。第一个问题是你常常向别人推荐的两到三本书是什么？我会说，第一本是Netflix以前出版的一本叫“一种没有世界的资源书”（Is there a No World Source Book）*。虽然我们使用过其中的幻灯片，但我觉得我们从中获得了很多灵感。尽管我们有着不同的文化，但关于执行力、优秀人才等许多方面的内容我都深有共鸣。这本书在我们介绍完自己的文化后，常常会推荐给别人，让他们也能从其他文化中获得灵感。
*请注意，“一种没有世界的资源书” （Is there a No World Source Book）可能是虚构的书名，如果有错误或不准确的地方，请核实书名的正确性。
And another maybe on a different way you know aspect is a book that actually Roy our course he always giving to me his name is non-violet communication and it's about effective ways of communication and understanding the people and their needs and how to communicate in a way that actually promotes you know an effective communication and what I liked about this book is you know mean way we love to to talk a lot and like after we both read the book like our way of talking like change so it's very practical so I also like like to give it away to our leadership and people within the team because I think it has like little value in it I'm trying to remember the framework of non-violet communication is like I observed you speaking too much in this meeting and that made me feel like I wasn't listened to something like that right I forgive you.
另一种可能的方式或者说角度是一位叫罗伊的人推荐给我的一本书，他在我们的课程中总是提到这本书，书名是《非暴力沟通》。这本书讲述了有效沟通和理解他人及其需求的方法，以及如何以一种真正促进有效沟通的方式进行交流。我喜欢这本书的原因是，我们都喜欢多说话，但在我们读完这本书后，我们的交流方式发生了改变，这非常实用。所以我也喜欢把这本书推荐给我们的领导层和团队成员，因为我认为这本书中包含了一些有价值的内容。我努力回忆《非暴力沟通》的框架，比如“我观察到你在会议上说话太多，这让我觉得自己没有被倾听”，大概就是这样的意思。我原谅你。
Yeah you shouldn't be judgmental you just need to say facts and talk about how you feel like in that so yeah yeah and I know I'm kind of joking about it but it's actually really powerful and we had we had a Carol Robin on the podcast who created this program at Stanford called Tecchi Fili which is similar to this whole process this all approach to talking and by the way I love the combination of Israeli directness and non-violet communication I want to see that in action yeah definitely.
是的，你不应该轻易评判别人，你只需要陈述事实，并谈谈你的感受。我知道我有点开玩笑，但其实这真的很有力量。我们曾在播客中邀请过卡罗尔·罗宾，她在斯坦福大学创建了一个名为Tecchi Fili的项目，这个项目与整个沟通过程和方法很相似。顺便说一句，我很喜欢以色列式的直接沟通和非暴力沟通的结合，我很想亲眼看到这种方式的实际应用。是的，绝对的。
Okay next question do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed so to be honest I don't watch TV so much like I get bored really fast and going back to other things but but like when I do watch TV so many times it's like in order to clear my head so it's not that kind of exciting things maybe a different thing that I'm doing is like playing on the PlayStation with my son you know FIFA just to vent out yeah and in terms of serious maybe like one thing that pops up is like the formula I really liked it formula one and Netflix to survive.
好的，下一个问题，你最近有没有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？老实说，我并不常看电视，因为我很快就会感到无聊，然后去做其他事情。不过，当我看电视时，很多时候是为了放松心情，所以看的东西可能并不那么激动人心。最近，我更多的是和我儿子一起玩PlayStation，比如玩《FIFA》发泄一下心情。至于认真的话题，也许有一个让我印象深刻的是Netflix的《一级方程式：生存》。
The life to survive exactly I really loved seeing the dynamics and everything behind you know it looks like something simple like driving cars but you see that there's so much into it and so it's also something that like really interesting and like opens your mind to watch. Yeah I haven't started the new season yet I wonder if it's great yeah like what yeah.
我非常喜欢观察生存的生活方式，以及一切背后的动态。表面上看，像开车这样简单的事情，其实背后有很多内容。这也让观看过程变得非常有趣，并能开阔思维。对了，我还没开始看新一季，不知道会不会很精彩。你觉得呢？
Okay next question give a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love. So you know I don't want to like to to fall into the all the eye trap you know in terms of products so maybe I'll say something which is not so recent but the product that I love and I really like to take pictures and one product that I really love is Google Photos I think that you know they managed to create something which takes like the technology edge but to a place where myself as a human like really can connect to it and get a lot of value for it so I'm like a really heavy user of that yeah yeah that is a magical product that I think people under under appreciate yeah.
好的，下一个问题，请分享一个你最近发现并非常喜欢的产品。我不太想被那些产品的吸引力所盲目影响，所以可能会说一个不算太新但我非常喜欢的产品。我喜欢拍照，而我最喜欢的产品之一是 Google 相册。我认为他们通过技术创新创造了一个让我能很好地与其连接并从中获得很多价值的产品。因此，我是这个产品的重度用户。我觉得这是一个很神奇的产品，但很多人可能并没有意识到它的好处。
Next question give a favorite life motto that you often come back to you find useful and work your own life stay positive like I think being positive saying saying like the good things is the huge huge power and it's a huge driver and it allows you to give energy to the people around you and it contagious so I really love you know staying positive making sure that we keep being optimistic and it doesn't mean that you need to you know let go of the problems and don't like see the problems but also think about always look forward and always think how you can take the current situation make it better and I learned with the way that it's really more fun and actually brings better results this way and 1000% aligned with that.
下一个问题，请分享一个你经常回顾并觉得有用的生活格言，帮助你保持积极心态。我认为保持积极、说好话具有巨大力量，是一个重要的驱动力，它可以为你周围的人带来能量，并且这种积极的态度是有感染力的。因此，我非常喜欢保持积极，确保我们依然乐观。这并不意味着你需要忽视问题或看不见问题，而是要始终向前看，思考如何在当前情况下改善环境。通过这种方式，我发现生活更加有趣，而且确实带来更好的结果，我非常认同这一点。
Final question I know you were in the army at one point in your life was there anything that you learned from that experience that helps you build better products the funny thing is is that I think that like many things that I did in the army I was actually commanding of like a very big group of people in the army and I think it's not about building products but more about building teams and being building like this sense of purpose sense of shared like belonging and I think that in that way many things are quite similar to be it might be like a counter intuitive but many things are quite similar and from that many many of the things of like being together although it's like a hierarchical environment is something that I take with me and a lot of like practical ways to lead the bigger organization I would say.
最后一个问题，我知道你曾在军队服役过，那么这段经历中是否有些什么能帮助你打造更好的产品？有趣的是，我觉得军队中的许多经历更多地教会了我如何建立团队，而不是如何打造产品。在军队中，我曾经负责指挥一个很大的团队，这让我意识到，共同的目标感和归属感是多么重要。在这个方面，军队和其他领域有很多相似之处，尽管这听起来可能有些反常。即使是在一个等级森严的环境中，我仍然学到了很多关于团队协作的重要性，这些经验帮助我在实际中去领导更大的组织。
Daniel this was awesome you're awesome so much stuff that we went through so many golden nuggets I think that we're going to help a lot of people with building products building teams scaling surviving all these scaling challenges that keep coming up in these conversations.
丹尼尔，这太棒了，你也太厉害了！我们一起讨论了很多有价值的东西。我相信这些内容将对很多人在产品开发、团队建设以及应对不断出现的扩展挑战等方面提供很大帮助。
Two final questions working folks find you online if they want to reach out maybe talk about being more transparent and then how can listeners be useful to you and so online like I think that's two main ways is like bilingual and I would say and second is podcasts and like I'm guessing in a lot of podcasts and I think that this is like a cool way to share things for stories and for like practical examples.
最后两个问题，如果有人想在线联系你，谈论如何更加透明，他们可以怎么找到你？还有，听众们如何能够对你有所帮助？在线的话，我觉得有两种主要方式。首先是双语交流，其次是通过播客。我经常参与很多播客节目，我觉得这是一个很好的方式来分享故事和实际案例。
And you know in terms of listeners being useful to me so first of all that in many ways they're already are useful to me I really love your podcast and like I'm getting a lot of you know insights from others and this is something I really love so many of the people that probably listening will also contributing to that so thank you for that.
在听众对我是否有帮助这方面，首先，在很多方面他们已经对我有帮助了。我非常喜欢你的播客，从中我获得了很多见解，我非常喜欢这种方式。可能有很多在收听的人也为此做出了贡献，所以对此我很感谢你们。
I really hope with that that this episode would also be meaningful to people and that they will take value out of it and if they are it would be amazing to hear about it like I remember you know someone that sent me a picture of his new dashboard in the office and what he he do with that and add like additional ideas of what.
我真的希望这一集对大家有意义，并且他们能从中获得价值。如果他们能做到，我会很高兴听到他们的反馈。就像我记得有人给我发了一张办公室中新仪表盘的照片，并告诉我他是如何使用它的，以及他添加的其他想法。
What you can do that way we actually took also here in monday so if you do something even if it's small let me know it's super fun to hear and also interest things all right there's the call to action if you implement some a Daniel's advice especially put up new dashboards or monitors in your office please send photos of her LinkedIn it sounds like is the best medium.
您可以这样做，我们在星期一也采用了这种方式。如果您做了什么事情，即使只是很小的事情，请告诉我，因为听到这些真的很有趣，也很有意思。好的，这就是行动号召。如果您实施了Daniel的一些建议，特别是安装了新的仪表板或在办公室里设置了新的监控器，请在LinkedIn上发送照片给她。听起来LinkedIn是最合适的平台。
Daniel thank you so much for being here thank you very much Lenny towards the pleasure bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app.
丹尼尔，非常感谢你在这里，非常感谢。再见，各位，谢谢你们的收听。如果你觉得这个内容有价值，可以在Apple播客、Spotify或你喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。
Also please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com see you in the next episode.
请考虑给我们一个评分或撰写评论，这对其他听众找到这个播客非常有帮助。您可以在Lenny's podcast.com查看所有过往的节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。期待在下一集与您再次相会。