Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create 100 million builders | Guillermo Rauch
发布时间 2025-04-13 11:00:00 来源
One of our users yesterday submitted feedback. They were saying these years like a super genius, five-year-old PhD with ADHD. I'm not gonna oversell this, it's like, it knows everything about everything, but it has this sparks of brilliance. How do you think things are gonna change for product managers, for product teams? People could be more full-stack. Imagine a designer that can ship a fully-baked product, a product manager that can prototype and ship to production. We shouldn't put limits on ourselves what we can build and what we can ship, and what we can dream about making possible on this web surfaces. A lot of people are wondering what happens to engineers should I learn how to code.
昨天我们的一位用户提交了反馈，他们说这些年就像一个超级天才的五岁博士生，伴有多动症。我不会过度吹嘘这件事，就像它对所有事情都了如指掌，但它确实有些闪光点。你认为这对产品经理和产品团队来说会带来怎样的变化？人们可能会变得更加全面。想象一下，一个设计师可以完成一件成熟的产品，一个产品经理可以构建原型并发布到生产环境中。我们不应该对自己所能构建、发布以及梦想在这些网络平台上实现的事情加以限制。很多人可能会想，工程师会发生什么变化，我是否应该学习编程。
A lot of the programming jobs to be done that used to be specializations, they think are going away in a way. They're translation tasks, but knowing how things work on their hood is gonna be very important for you because you're gonna be able to influence the model and make it follow your intention a lot better. We hear those were taste all the time. In terms of billing taste, people are always like, how the hell do I do that? Taste, sometimes I think we think of as like this inaccessible thing that, oh, that person was born with taste. I see it as a skill that you can develop.
许多曾经非常专业化的编程工作，现在在某种程度上正在消失。这些工作类似于翻译任务，但了解其背后的工作原理对你来说会非常重要，因为这样你能够更好地影响模型，让它更符合你的意图。我们经常听到关于品味的讨论。在设计品味方面，人们总是感到困惑，不知道该如何去实现。品味有时被认为是与生俱来的能力，但我认为这是一种可以培养的技能。
I think it's extremely important to try lots of products. We have one of our sort of internal operating principles as increasing exposure hours. Try to quantify how much time you expose yourself to watching how people use your products. And you've developed that must. We've already think the biggest change is gonna happen. We need to stop talking about AI at some point. I just see a future where AI becomes synonymous with software.
我认为尽量尝试多种产品是非常重要的。在我们内部的操作原则中，有一条是增加“曝光时间”。试着量化一下你花在观察人们如何使用你产品上的时间。而且你已经培养了这种习惯。我们已经预想到最大的变化即将到来。我们需要在某个时间点停止谈论人工智能。我预见在未来，人工智能将会成为软件的代名词。
We build software and we use software to build software. Today, my guest is Guillermo Rausch. Guillermo is the founder and CEO of Versel, which amongst other things makes a product called V0, which has become one of the most popular AI website building tools in the world. He's also a legendary engineer and contributor to open source. He's created some of those popular JavaScript frameworks in the world like NextJS and Socket.io.
我们开发软件，并且用软件来开发软件。今天，我的嘉宾是Guillermo Rausch。Guillermo是Versel的创始人兼首席执行官，这家公司推出的产品V0已经成为全球最受欢迎的AI建站工具之一。他还是一位传奇的工程师和开源项目贡献者，曾创建了一些全球流行的JavaScript框架，如NextJS和Socket.io。
He's both a builder and is building a product that's gonna change the way we all build products in the future. This episode is incredible. If you wanna really understand how product development is gonna change with the rise of AI and what skills you should be focusing on right now, I highly recommend you keep listening. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. Also, if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of linear notion, superhuman perplexity pro and granola.
他既是一位建造者，也正在打造一款将改变我们未来产品开发方式的产品。这一集内容精彩绝伦。如果你想真正了解随着人工智能的崛起产品开发将如何变化，以及现在你应该专注于哪些技能，我强烈建议你继续收听。如果你喜欢这个播客，不要忘记在你常用的播客应用或者 YouTube 上订阅和关注。此外，如果你成为我新闻通讯的年度订阅者，你可以免费获得一年的 Linear、Notion、Superhuman、Perplexity Pro 和 Granola。
Check it out at Lenny's newsletter.com. With that, I bring you Guillermo Rausch. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like Samo authentication and skin provisioning. That's where WorkOS comes in, making a fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app. Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
请访问 Lenny 的新闻通讯网站 Lenny's newsletter.com。现在，我为您介绍 Guillermo Rausch。本期节目由 WorkOS 独家赞助。如果您正在构建一款 SaaS 应用，您的客户迟早会开始要求企业级功能，比如 Samo 身份验证和实例配置。这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它能快速且轻松地为您的应用添加企业级功能。他们的 API 易于理解，让您可以快速推出产品，并专注于开发其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know, like Versel, Webflow, and Loom. WorkOS also recently acquired Warned, the Fine-Grain Authorization Service. Warned product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube. This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale, while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
今天，已经有数百家公司使用WorkOS，其中你可能知道的包括Versel、Webflow和Loom。WorkOS最近还收购了Warned，这是一家提供细粒度授权服务的公司。Warned的产品基于一项名为Zanzibar的突破性授权系统，该系统最初由Google设计，用于支持Google Docs和YouTube。这使得在巨大的规模上进行快速授权检查成为可能，同时保持灵活的模型，可以适应甚至是最复杂的使用场景。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, scam, or user management, you should consider WorkOS. It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free. Check it out at workos.com to learn more. That's workos.com. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.
如果你正在寻找构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能，如单点登录、欺诈监控或用户管理，你可以考虑使用 WorkOS。它可以作为 Auth0 的替代方案，支持每月多达 100 万活跃用户，且免费提供。你可以访问 workos.com 了解更多信息。此次节目由 Vanta 赞助。在确保你的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情可能会迅速变得复杂。
Now you can assess risks, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more, with a single platform, Vanta. Vanta's market leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance, alongside reporting and tracking risks. Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI. Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.
现在，您可以使用 Vanta 单一平台评估风险、确保客户信任，并自动实现 SOC2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。Vanta 的市场领先信任管理平台帮助您持续监控合规情况，同时报告和跟踪风险。此外，您可以通过 Vanta 的人工智能完成安全问卷，节省大量时间。加入全球数千家公司，使用 Vanta 自动收集证据、统一风险管理并简化安全审查流程。
Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com slash Lenny. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Lenny. Guillermo, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time, I guess, participating in the podcast and the love being here. I appreciate that. OK, so I know you saw this. I did the survey recently where I asked my readers, what tools do you use most in your day-to-day work as a product, builders or product manager? And in the category of engineering tools, these zero came in right below cursor and GitHub for people's most used AI building tools. So clearly, people love what you're doing.
访问 vanta.com/Lenny 可以立减 $1,000，网址是 V-A-N-T-A 点 com 斜杠 Lenny。Guillermo，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎参加我们的播客节目。谢谢邀请，我是节目的长期听众，也是第一次参与录制，很高兴来到这里。非常感谢。好的，我知道你看到了这个。我最近做了个调查，问我的读者作为产品开发人员或产品经理，他们日常工作中最常用的工具是什么。在工程工具类别中，Vercel 的得票紧随 Cursor 和 GitHub 之后，成为人们最常用的 AI 构建工具之一。显然，大家都很喜欢你的产品。
Yeah, we're very happy to see that. And for us, we're at the very beginning of the journey in some ways, because V-Zero is a relatively new tool. But for sale, our company has been around for a while. You know, the way that I explain to people is anytime you're using the internet, if there is a website or web application that's really fast, innovative, hopefully is running on our platform. We're out there. We're running a lot of websites at scale. If you watch this Super Bowl recently, three different companies were promoting digital products that were built and delivered on Vercel.
是的，我们对此感到非常高兴。对我们来说，这在某种程度上只是一个开始，因为 V-Zero 是一个相对较新的工具。虽然我们的公司已经存在一段时间了。通常我会这样解释：每当你在使用互联网时，如果你发现某个网站或网络应用程序非常快速、创新，那很可能是基于我们的平台运行的。我们服务于大量的大规模网站。如果您最近观看了超级碗，有三个不同的公司正在推广基于 Vercel 构建和交付的数字产品。
So not only can you deploy your ideas and build them on Vercel, they can scale to huge volumes of traffic and huge audiences. So a lot of people know us because of a framework called Nexias. It's an open source framework based on the React technology open source by Meta. And it powers some of the most innovative products on the internet. You use Claude or Groc or Mid-Journey. You're using Nexias. You're using for sales technologies. So with V-Zero, what we're trying to do is, and it's funny because you put us in the rightfully, I think, in the building or development category in that survey, but what we're trying to do with V-Zero is help more people participate in building software.
不仅如此，您可以在Vercel上部署和构建您的想法，它们还能够扩展到大量的流量和观众。因此，很多人通过一个名为Nexias的框架了解我们。它是一个基于React技术的开源框架，由Meta开源，并为互联网上一些最具创新性的产品提供支持。当您使用Claude、Groc或Mid-Journey时，实际上是在使用Nexias和Vercel的技术。我们正在通过V-Zero来尝试实现的目标是，很有趣，因为在那个调查中，您正确地将我们归入了构建或开发类别，但我们通过V-Zero希望做的是帮助更多人参与到软件开发中。
Increase the total addressable market of people that are actually shipping things, shipping real products. And at the same time, just like you would with Chad GPD, we want V-Zero to be extremely, extremely easy. And the outputs that it generates make them as refined and realistic as possible. The things that you created with V-Zero hopefully live up to that standard set by some of the best and largest websites on the internet. I was going to ask you how V-Zero came out of Vercel. And my theory was it was like, you guys are sitting around, how do we get more people building websites? And it's like, let's just help them do it really easily. Is that, it's like Tam expansion for Vercel?
增加实际运输货物和产品的用户群体。与此同时，就像使用Chad GPD一样，我们希望V-Zero能够极其简单，而它产生的输出结果应尽可能精细和逼真。希望通过V-Zero创建的作品能够达到互联网上一些最大和最佳网站设定的标准。我本来想问你，V-Zero是如何从Vercel中诞生的。我的猜想是，你们当时坐在一起思考如何让更多人建立网站，然后得出结论：让我们帮助他们更简单地实现这一目标。这是否意味着这是Vercel市场扩展的策略？
Is that, yeah, it's important. In some ways, I've been doing for not only 10 years that I've been almost working on Vercel, but maybe my entire life, because my strength as a developer is kind of meta. It's been to create developer tools. So I've created a bunch of open source frameworks that are really popular. So next to me, I asked this one, but before that in a previous life, I created another tool called Socket.io, which is a real-time communication mechanism that powers. For example, every time you use Notion, I think you interviewed Ivan, when Notion is broadcast messages in real-time to other collaborators, they use a real-time engine that I built for Socket.io.
是的，这很重要。从某种程度上来说，我已经从事这项工作不止10年了，可能我一生都在做这件事，因为我作为开发者的长处带有一些“元”特质。我擅长开发开发者工具。我创建了许多流行的开源框架。例如，在我开发Vercel之前，我在之前的工作中创建了一个名为Socket.io的工具。这是一个实时通信机制。例如，每次你使用Notion时，当Notion向其他协作成员实时广播消息时，他们使用的是我为Socket.io开发的实时引擎。我想你也采访过Ivan，正是这样的技术在支撑着这些功能。
So the reason that startups and companies have used my products in the past is because they took something that was very difficult to do, but very compelling. It was with real-time in the past, like it's building cutting-edge applications on the web with Next.js, and I try to make it as easy as possible. But you still need to know development skills, right? For us, and the opportunity was, if there is maybe five million react developers, which is the sort of the library engine that we use, and there is maybe 20 million JavaScript developers. How many product builders are people with aspirations of building products exist?
创业公司和企业之所以过去使用我的产品，是因为我的产品能够简化一些非常困难但极具吸引力的任务。在过去，这些任务主要与实时应用相关，比如使用 Next.js 在网页上构建尖端应用。我尽量让这些任务变得尽可能简单。不过，你仍然需要具备开发技能，对吧？对我们来说，机会在于，如果有大约五百万使用 React 的开发者（这就是我们所使用的库引擎），以及大约两千万的 JavaScript 开发者，那么有多少有志于构建产品的人存在呢？
My back of the NAPKIN, like minimum calculation, is 100 million. And I'll tell you it's funny where I get that number from. Slack has about 100 million monthly active users. And what you do on Slack is you go in it, and you talk to people, and a lot of those people are building digital products, right? And they talk to one another about what they would want to see in the world. They talk to customers through shared channels. I love that feature. We talk to a lot of the versatile customers, and they tell us, like, I want to build this, I want to see that, I want this feature, I want that thing.
根据我粗略的、不精确的估算，数字大约是1亿。我来解释一下我是怎么得出这个数字的。Slack大约有1亿月活跃用户。使用Slack的时候，人们会在上面交流，其中许多人正在开发数字产品，对吧？他们会谈论希望在世界上看到什么，通过共享频道与客户沟通。我非常喜欢这个功能。我们与许多多才多艺的客户交流，他们会告诉我们想开发什么、想看到哪些功能或特性。
And so the opportunity with VZero was, it's not that you're going to stop talking to other people, but what if you could yap into the computer and see something happen? Build a prototype, build your first version of a product, build a demo, build a full stack product, build it and ship it. And so the inspiration for it was very natural to the mission of herself. But concretely, the genesis of the story was, when ChatGPT came out, we noticed that it was very good at writing the code that our tools used. So ChatGPT, right out of the bat, was good at JavaScript, was good at Tailwind, which is a CSS styling technology, was good at NextShast, and again, the power of open source. Our tools were already in the training data of the internet. And so that long-term bed and vision and opens was really paid off.
VZero的机会在于，不是让你停止与他人交谈，而是如果你可以对着计算机说话并看到一些结果，那会怎样？你可以构建一个原型，打造你产品的第一个版本，制作一个演示，开发一个全栈产品，然后完成并发布它。因此，它的灵感非常自然地与她自身的使命相契合。而具体地说，这个故事的起源是，当ChatGPT问世时，我们注意到它在编写我们工具所使用的代码方面表现得非常出色。ChatGPT上手就很擅长JavaScript、Tailwind（一种CSS样式技术）和Next.js。这都得益于开源项目的力量。我们的工具数据已经在互联网上的训练数据之中。因此，这种长期的投入、愿景和开放策略确实得到了回报。
And so because the models were so good at writing this kind of code, the idea for VZero came naturally from, what if we could build a ChatGPT for building web products? Speaking of that, I didn't actually know. So I had bolts, CEO on the podcast, and he talked about how Claude kind of unlocked what they are doing. And you guys, do you guys sit on ChatGPT and open AI stuff? We started out on OpenAI, and we've always used a combination of models. It's funny right now on Twitter, there's a million, there's through with a million views of people trying to reverse engineer the prompt and the model of the user. And they're all finding that there is all this kind of different models that are specialists in different tasks.
因为这些模型非常擅长编写这类代码，所以创建VZero的想法自然就出现了：如果我们能打造一个用于构建网络产品的ChatGPT会怎么样？说到这个，我其实并不知道太多。我在播客上采访了Bolt的CEO，他谈到Claude如何打开了他们的工作思路。你们有使用ChatGPT或OpenAI的东西吗？我们起初使用OpenAI，并一直在使用多种模型的组合。有意思的是，现在在Twitter上，有成千上万的人在试图逆向工程用户的提示和模型。他们都发现，有许多不同的模型在特定任务上非常在行。
And there's a pipeline of models where a model could hand off work to another model. And so open AI, Gemini, Claude, but we predate Anthropic because I'll give credit to ChatGPT that the utility of it was so general purpose. But from the very first release, it was very good. In fact, by the way, if I'm not mistaken, the first prototype of V0 might have even predated ChatGPT or at the very least, I think we were running on GPD 3.5. So we've always had this vision of unlocking more power for the web through LLMs. And there's a lot of very interesting technical details of why, by the way, LLMs happen to be so good at the task of web design and web development that we could get into.
有一个模型的管道，其中一个模型可以将工作传递给另一个模型。因此有OpenAI，Gemini，Claude这些模型的存在，但我们早在Anthropic之前就开始了，我要给予ChatGPT一些认可，因为它的实用性非常广泛。从一开始的发布，它的表现就非常出色。事实上，如果我没记错的话，V0的第一个原型可能甚至早于ChatGPT，或者至少，我们是在GPT-3.5上运行的。所以，我们一直有一个愿景，就是通过大型语言模型（LLM）为网络解锁更多的潜力。而且，有很多非常有趣的技术细节解释了为什么LLM在网页设计和开发任务上如此出色，我们可以深入探讨这些内容。
It was like the perfect timing for us. That's what I want to come back to that. That's actually a really good question. But let me ask a couple other questions here. In terms of V0, what's the scale at this point? We hear all these numbers about all the folks in the space. What can you share about it happening with V0? I can share that it's growing exponentially and that over 1.3 million users have interacted with V0 so far. We had our largest day ever yesterday and today again. We're one of the largest customers of most of cloud providers at this point. We're hitting the limits of every GPU, LLMs infrastructure out there in the planet.
这对我们来说就像是完美的时机。我想回过头来谈谈这个话题。这个问题确实很不错。不过，让我先问几个其他问题。关于V0，目前的规模有多大？我们听到很多关于同行的数字，能否分享一些有关V0的情况？可以说V0正在呈指数增长，截至目前已有超过130万用户与V0互动。昨天和今天都是我们有史以来最大的一天。就目前而言，我们是大多数云服务提供商的最大客户之一。我们正在接近全球每一个GPU和大型语言模型基础设施的极限。
And the most exciting thing for me is what I'm seeing people build with V0. So we launched a feature about a month ago, maybe even less than a month ago, called V0 Community. It already has 20,000 submissions. If I'm sure people in your audience have used Figma, one of the things that I low it, Figma files that I can go and grab a starting point for something could be a logo, could be a menu. And you can start with something and someone has already contributed. Kind of like that spirit of open source. And so in less than a month, I think we've done over 20,000 community submissions. So we've learned so much about building AI products with this.
对我来说，最令人兴奋的是我看到人们用 V0 创建的东西。大约一个月前，甚至不到一个月前，我们推出了一个叫做 V0 社区的功能。这个社区已经有2万个提交作品。如果你的观众中有人使用过 Figma，你就会知道我喜欢它的一点是，可以直接获取一个起点文件，比如一个标志或者菜单。而且这些都是别人已经贡献出来的，这有点像开源的精神。所以在不到一个月的时间里，我觉得我们已经有了超过2万个社区提交。通过这个过程，我们学到了很多关于构建 AI 产品的知识。
And we continue to sort of open source and share our best practices. But one of the things that I've definitely learned is prompting it seems like the easiest interface in the world because it's just an input, right? And you put text in it. But there's a little bit of a writer's blocks sometimes. So one of my favorite things that I've seen, and I'm even looking at the home page right now, and you can see like at random assortment of community submissions. And they have 1,200 forks and 1,500 forks and 1,000 forks. And this is every time people say like, oh, instead of starting from scratch, I'll start from this application that someone else has built.
我们继续开源并分享我们的最佳实践。但我确实学到的一件事是，虽然提示看起来像是世界上最简单的界面，因为它只需要输入文本，但有时候却会有点像作家遇到瓶颈。所以，我最喜欢的一件事情就是看到有些很棒的东西——我现在甚至正在浏览主页，你可以看到一些社区提交的随机集合。他们已经有1200次、1500次，还有1000次的分支。这意味着每当人们说“哦，与其从零开始，我不如从别人构建的这个应用开始”的时候，这种共享就得到了体现。
And I'm going to prompt it to modify it and make it my own. So the community submissions are people building apps on VZero and sharing what they built. Correct. And look at the code and fork it. And it's becoming like a compounding investment, right? Like people share something. Someone else grabs it, makes it better. Maybe you use it at that point. In many ways, I see this as the next evolution of GitHub. Whereas GitHub was so, it was a marvel for software development because it, I don't know if you remember this, but like the initial little tagline underneath that GitHub logo was social coding.
好的，我会以简单易读的方式翻译这段文字：
“我打算提示它进行修改，使其成为我自己的作品。社区提交内容是人们在VZero上开发的应用程序，并分享他们的成果。这是正确的。你可以查看代码并进行分支，就像一种复利投资。人们分享了一个东西，然后其他人拿去改进，也许在那时你就可以使用它。从很多方面来看，我觉得这是GitHub的下一次进化。GitHub在软件开发中一直是一个奇迹，不知道你是否记得，GitHub标志下面的初始小标语是‘社会化编码’。”
And it had this democratization effect of building software. But you still needed to know how to code. And so what we're after is social product building, in many ways, like everybody should be able to cook and share what they're building. I love how I hadn't thought of it this way, but I love that it connects so much to your open source roots where people are building on VZero and then sharing what they're building. And if people can build off those things, it's kind of like an open source AI building experience. It's fascinating, right? Like in many ways, if you think about the Git commit, the Git commit is super interesting. If you watch how an engineer works, they look at a problem, they spend a lot of time in their code editor.
这带来了一个软件开发的民主化效果。但当时你仍然需要了解如何编程。所以我们所追求的是一种社会化的产品构建，就像每个人都应该能参与到制作和分享他们的成果中去。我以前没这么想过，但我很喜欢这种感觉，它与开源的理念紧密相连，人们在VZero上构建并分享他们的作品。如果人们能够在此基础上继续创造，那么这就像一个开放源代码的AI构建体验。非常有趣，不是吗？在很多方面，如果你考虑Git提交，它是非常有趣的。观察工程师的工作方式，他们会先审视一个问题，然后花大量时间在他们的代码编辑器上工作。
And at the end, they say, I think I got it. I think I fixed it. And then they produce a Git commit. They summarize their intent and what they try to do after they've done the work. VZero inverts that. The Git commit is you go into the chat and say, please change the color of this button. And when I click it, save this form to a database. And so you're starting with the intent. And the output is the code. And as a side effect, we can also produce a Git commit for you. That feature is not online yet but it's coming the next couple of days. Spoiled alert for the group. And so I like this idea of we can create this superset of all software building with this platform.
最后，他们会说，我想我弄明白了，我想我修好了。然后他们会创建一个 Git 提交，总结他们在完成工作后的意图和所尝试的内容。而 VZero 颠倒了这个过程。Git 提交变成了你进入聊天中说：「请改变这个按钮的颜色，并在我点击后将这个表单保存到数据库。」所以你是从意图开始，而输出是代码。同时，作为一个副产品，我们也可以为你生成一个 Git 提交。这个功能目前还没有上线，但将在接下来的几天内推出。给这个小组一个小小的预告。我喜欢这种通过这个平台创建软件开发全新集成方法的想法。
And that is true to my initial intention with Versel. Our mission is to enable the world to build and ship the best products. And so enabling that for the largest possible group of people is very exciting to me. So let's go to this question of just kind of the elephant in the room for a lot of people. Seeing these things happening, product builders that have been doing things a certain way for a long time with apps like this coming around, whether you could just type a thing in and build it for you. And it's beautiful. How do you think things are going to change for product managers, for product teams? Where do you think the biggest change is going to happen?
这与我最初创立Versel的意图是一致的。我们的使命是让世界能够构建和发布最好的产品。因此，我对于能够让尽可能多的人实现这一点感到非常兴奋。现在，让我们来讨论一个很多人关心的问题。看到这些变化发生，那些长期以来使用特定方式开发产品的团队，面对这种只需输入内容就能自动构建应用的情况，反应如何？它看起来非常美观。您认为这种趋势将如何改变产品经理和产品团队的工作方式？您认为最大的变化会在哪里发生？
I do think product will be built in the next few years. The most profound one that I kind of alluded to is that conversations between product builders and their customers will be mediated by this V0 links, this artifacts. I think when Claude came up with the name artifacts, I found it phenomenal because we're all in this world, especially in this group of people. We're here to build awesome things and share them with the world. Steve Jobs said this awesome speech about, it's like our form of giving back to the world is to try and do the best possible job we can and share it with the world.
我确实认为产品将在未来几年被开发出来。我之前提到的一个重要方面是，产品开发者与客户之间的对话将通过这些V0链接、这些工件进行中介。当Claude想出“工件”这个名字时，我觉得非常惊艳，因为我们都生活在这个世界上，特别是在这个群体中。我们在这里是为了创造出色的事物，并与世界分享。史蒂夫·乔布斯在一个精彩的演讲中说过，这就像是我们回馈世界的一种方式，努力做到最好，并与世界分享。
And so the idea that when we talk, we would not have the power to make those ideas a reality seems like an L to me. I would love to see people constantly live in the product, be in the design, spend time tuning and trying out new ideas. And that's what the ideal work of the future should look like. And less about that abstraction of being removed from the product, or even sometimes feeling powerless to not be able to change something. This happens a lot when departments collaborate within an organization. Marketing wants design to do something, marketing wants engineers, engineering is a design. It cuts always, right? One of the things that people got excited about that we published on the Excel blog was about design engineering.
因此，在我们交谈时，无法将那些想法变为现实，这对我来说似乎是种失败。我希望人们能持续地参与产品创作，融入到设计中，花时间去调整和尝试新想法。这就是理想中的未来工作方式。避免脱离产品的抽象工作，或者有时感到无法改变某事的无力感。当组织内部各部门合作时，这种情况经常发生。市场部希望设计部做某事，市场部希望工程师配合，工程师希望设计师参与，都是相互联系的。我们在Excel博客上发布的关于设计工程的内容曾引起了人们的关注。
Because a lot of the people that we were noticing were being very successful at Excel were people that had both the design and engineering skills. And that was actually another huge motivator inspiration for V0. Because we realized that people could be more full stack. We shouldn't put limits on ourselves and what we can build and what we can ship and what we can dream about making possible on this web surfaces. And so you could imagine removing all those limitations. A designer that can ship a fully baked product, a product manager that can prototype and ship to production. A lot of people that use V0 are back in the engineers that never had the ability to sort of like they could ship an API, they could build a great low-level infrastructure system.
我们注意到，许多在Excel方面非常成功的人都是兼具设计和工程技能的人。这实际上是V0的一个重要灵感来源和推动力。我们意识到，人们可以成为更全面的开发者，我们不应该对自己能构建、发布和梦想实现的事物设限。在这个网络平台上，你可以想象去除所有这些限制。一个设计师能够发布完整的产品，一个产品经理能原型设计并投入生产。很多使用V0的人是以往只能发布API或构建优秀底层基础设施系统的工程师，现在他们有能力完成整个产品的开发。
But to actually bring their end-to-end vision to life, these years sort of completing that for them. So let me follow the thread on engineers. A lot of people are wondering, do we need engineers in the future? What happens to engineers? Should I learn how to code your long-term engineer thoughts for folks that are trying to decide the career for themselves? Yeah, I think knowing how things work is the most important skill in the world. I foresee a lot of people becoming incredibly impactful in building and shipping amazing products and building gigantic companies and everything you could imagine, where a single person can do the job of 100 different people in 100 different specializations.
为了真正实现他们的端到端愿景，这些年对他们来说就像在完成这件事情。那么，让我们继续讨论工程师的话题。很多人都在想，未来我们是否还需要工程师？工程师的未来会怎样？我应该学习编程吗？关于那些在职业选择方面犹豫不决的人，我的长期看法是：了解事物的运行方式是世界上最重要的技能。我预见会有很多人在开发和发布惊人产品、建立巨型公司方面产生极大的影响，基本上是实现你能想象的一切，一个人可以胜任100个不同专业的工作。
Take the example of one skill so that it's really important to build a front-end product is you need to know how to use CSS or tailwind to style it. And once upon a time, I would hire people that were truly specialists in this task. The task of there's a Figma design or there is some kind of sketch and translating that into reality because they knew really well how to manipulate layouts, layout code, box model code, we call it, and borders, paddings, margins, flexbox, all these technologies for styling.
以一项技能为例，对于构建前端产品来说，了解如何使用CSS或Tailwind进行样式设计是非常重要的。在过去，我曾经会雇佣一些真正擅长这项工作的专家，他们能够将Figma设计或某种草图转化为现实。这些专家非常精通如何操作布局、布局代码、盒模型代码（我们称之为），以及边框、内边距、外边距和Flexbox等所有用于样式设计的技术。
And notice I actually use the word translation very intentionally because the origin of the LLM goes to transform architecture at least, goes as far back as the architecture for systems like Google Translate. They were generative LLM techniques basically. That's how they crossed that chasm of like, remember when translating tools were horrible and then when they the problem was just solved, right? And I look at a lot of the programming jobs to be done that used to be specializations that I think are going away in a way or the tasks to be done, their translation tasks.
请注意，我在这里特意使用了“翻译”这个词，因为大型语言模型（LLM）的起源至少可以追溯到转换架构，类似于谷歌翻译等系统的架构。它们基本上是生成型的LLM技术。这就是为什么翻译工具从糟糕的效果到后来问题完全解决的原因，对吧？我认为，许多曾经是一种专业化的编程工作或任务，现在正逐渐消失，某种程度上，它们就是一种翻译任务。
We were translating from a screenshot or intent or a design into a react and tailway in the CSS implementation. And right now, V0 is incredibly good at doing that. It's so good that every time we put a new generation of the model out, I run this task of converting my own website and try to generate it with V0. Last time I did it, it had taken me like 10 prompts to replicate it. Keep in mind that an expert front-end engineer that's been in the arena since I'm like 10 years old and I'm 35 now. So I do that task because it's almost like a task of self-imposed humility.
我们正在把截图、意图或设计翻译成React和Tailwind CSS实现。目前，V0版本在这方面表现得非常出色。它好到每次我们推出一个新版本时，我都会将我的网站用V0来转换。上次这样做时，只用了大约10次提示就完成了，要知道我可是从10岁起就开始做前端开发的，迄今已有35岁了。我进行这个任务几乎是一种自我谦逊的练习。
I remember exactly how long it took me to build my website with Nexia as the framework that I created and ship it. And so with the last model took me maybe 10, 15 prompts. With the most recent model, it took me two prompts. And so that translation from the design intent into working implementation and I think that I like to share with people is the model because V0 tries to embed all of the best practices of the web. The model output more accessible code than when I wrote.
我清楚地记得我用Nexia作为框架建网站并发布所花的时间。使用上一个版本的模型时，我可能用了10到15次提示。而最新的模型只用了两次提示。设计意图到实际应用的转换让我感到兴奋，我想分享给大家这个模型，因为V0尝试把所有最佳的网页实践融入其中。这使得模型输出的代码比我自己编写的更加易于维护和访问。
It follows the accessibility guidelines that the web standards consortium's put out better than I did because it just knows everything. And so that does task where you can almost model it to a translation task. Definitely going away. But knowing how things work on their hood. Notice all that I'm using specific tokens in this conversation. I'm saying CSS. I'm saying layout. I'm naming styles. Knowing those tokens is going to be very important for you because you're going to be able to influence the model and make it follow your intention a lot better.
它比我做得更好地遵循了网络标准组织制定的可访问性指南，因为它几乎无所不知。所以这种任务几乎可以被看作是一个翻译任务，并且这个方向会越来越普遍发展。但是了解其运作原理是很重要的。注意，在这个对话中我使用了特定的术语，比如CSS、布局、样式。了解这些术语对你来说会非常重要，因为这会让你更好地影响模型并让它更好地遵循你的意图。
And so the TLDR would be knowing how things work. The symbolic systems. And that will mean that you have to probably go into each subject with less depth. I have engineers at a Excel that know every single CSS property by heart. They know when they became available in a certain web browser. They've been tracking this specification. Like it's almost like you're in a in secuplity of knowledge of each CSS property. You probably won't need that in the future. And probably that's good because you'll free up your mind for more ambitious things. Not as fascinating.
简而言之，要了解事物的运作方式，也就是符号系统。这意味着可能需要以较浅的深度去涉猎各个学科。我这里有一些工程师，他们对每一个CSS属性都了如指掌，甚至知道某个属性在某个浏览器中何时开始提供支持。他们一直在追踪这些规范，就像掌握着CSS属性的百科全书一样。这种知识可能将来并不需要。这其实是好事，因为这样可以让你腾出脑力去追求更宏伟的目标，而不是这些不那么吸引人的细节。
So I'm hearing is a skill that will continue to be valuable in the future. No matter. But I want to push on this a little bit. No matter how far AI gets is understanding the conceptually how software works. Actance system databases. CSS is a thing. So say I don't know if you have kids, whether you have kids or not, just say they were like trying to decide what should I learn to be, you know, to thrive in this future. Well, how would you summarize it? Like how far should they get into and suffer engineering?
我听说，在未来，理解软件运作的基本概念将继续是一项有价值的技能，无论AI发展到什么程度。这包括理解系统、数据库、CSS等等。假如您有孩子，或者即使没有，他们如果在考虑将来该学习什么，以在未来蓬勃发展。那么，你会如何概括建议呢？他们应该在软件工程方面学到多深呢？
Great question because I have five kids and I've already enrolled them in this school of G myself. In the sense that I'm already guiding them towards the things I think are going to be very useful to them. So understanding how things work needs. I think the ability to understand the fundamental logic behind things, incredibly valuable. So I push them really hard on math. If you don't know math really well, you're out of my house just kidding. But like it's a it's a it's a fundamental like skill that I want them to know. Elegance.
好问题，因为我有五个孩子，我已经把他们送到我自己的"学校"里。在我看来，我正在引导他们去学习我认为对他们非常有用的东西。了解事物的运作需要理解背后的基本逻辑，这点非常重要。因此，我对他们在数学上要求很高。如果你数学不好，那就不能呆在我家里，开玩笑啦。但数学是我希望他们掌握的一项基本技能。 优雅。
So I joke sometimes, have you heard a meme of word sells versus shabotators? Yeah. So a shabotator is someone that only has a math brain, right? You could argue the kings and queens of Silicon Valley have been the shabotators because those have been the jobs that have historically commanded the most status respect. Net worth whatever. And then there's a word sells which is communicating more of the liberal arts. There's also the funny and awesome slide of apples saying that they are at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.
有时我开玩笑问：“你听说过词语销售者（word sells）和沙堡建造者（shabotators）的笑话吗？”对，一个“沙堡建造者”是只依赖数学头脑的人。可以说，硅谷的王者们一直都是这些“沙堡建造者”，因为这些工作在历史上获得了最多的地位、尊重和财富。而“词语销售者”更多的是通过传播文科知识来进行交流。还有一个有趣的例子就是苹果公司给大家展示的，他们处在文科与技术的交汇点。
I've always had immense amounts of respect for both sides of the brain so to speak. But I think developing great eloquence and knowing and memorizing those tokens that I talked about. No, we had to refer to things in that global mental map of symbolic systems will be highly valuable. And we have some tools to help people prompt better. But prompt enhancement and embellishment cannot replace thinking and cannot replace your own creativity that you want to infuse into the world.
我一直以来对大脑的两侧都有极大的尊重。但我认为培养出色的表达能力，以及了解和记忆我所提到的那些符号，是非常有价值的。我们确实有一些工具可以帮助人们更好地引导。但引导的优化和润色不能替代思考，也不能替代你想要投入到这个世界的创造力。
So one of the things that V0 does is it tries and it it succeeds I think at creating very nice designs out of the box. We try to infuse what we've learned about what do people think is typically good web design with influence the model in that direction. But still like we also don't want the whole internet to look the same way. So your ability to steer the model with your words into those references into those inspirations is going to be very important.
因此，V0 的一个功能是，它努力并成功地直接创建出非常漂亮的设计。我们试图把我们关于人们通常认为优秀网页设计的经验融入到模型中。但同时，我们也不希望整个互联网看起来都千篇一律。因此，你用文字引导模型指向那些参考和灵感的能力将会非常重要。
I actually have an amazing anecdote. We hosted a design demo night at the Versailles HQ in San Francisco last night. And we were showing off how Versailles uses the zero to build the zero and to build the Versailles. And one of our designers showed this amazing animation that he built. Actually two amazing animations that he built. And in one of them it was this amazing triangle that had an animation that I didn't think was possible to make and that it was all built with V0.
我有个很棒的故事想分享。昨天晚上，我们在旧金山的凡尔赛总部举办了一个设计展示活动。我们展示了凡尔赛是如何利用V0来实现设计的，并且是如何一步步建立起凡尔赛的。我们的一个设计师展示了他制作的一个了不起的动画，实际上是两个了不起的动画。其中一个动画里有一个神奇的三角形，这个动画的效果让我觉得几乎不可能实现，但他用V0做到了。
And he used the word turbulence to describe the effect that he wanted. So I just want to call out that to people because the difference between knowing that word and not knowing it is getting that style into that beautiful triangle that he created that was interactive and it's probably going to end up in some landing page soon that you're going to visit on Versailles HQ. And so developing eloquence and your linguistic ability I think is going to be very important. So I love my kids to know that.
他用“动荡”这个词来形容他想要达到的效果。所以我想提醒大家注意这个，因为知道和不知道这个词的差别就在于，是否能用这种风格来打造他创造的那个漂亮且富有互动性的三角形。这个三角形可能很快会出现在你们即将访问的Versailles HQ的某个着陆页上。因此，我认为培养口才和语言能力是非常重要的。我希望我的孩子们能够明白这一点。
And I think that idea of sharing things and putting yourself out there and broadcasting to the world. So another thing that I do is I take my kids to hackathons, which is went to an awesome hackathon at University of San Francisco, USF. It was called the Bloom Hackathon. I took two of my kids. And I wanted to watch how people presented their ideas. And we had a lot of fun. We also ate waffles and grilled sandwiches, which is a bonus.
我认为分享事物、展现自我并向世界传播的想法很不错。我还会带我的孩子们参加黑客马拉松活动，比如我们曾经去过旧金山大学（USF）举办的一场非常棒的活动，名叫Bloom Hackathon。我带了两个孩子参加。我的目的是想看看人们如何展示他们的想法。我们玩得很开心，还享用了华夫饼和烤三明治，这算是额外的收获。
But so presenting and putting yourself out there. I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast when we were chatting, I learned so much from you and your guests because you put out all this awesome little posts on X in this videos and this is snippets of your interviews. And so the ability to present what you've built and put yourself out there. Incredible, important skill in the future, especially in the world where the marginal cost of producing software and new things are going down.
在这个世界里，展现自己并把自己推向公众是十分重要的。我在播客开始时提到，通过与你和你的嘉宾交流，我学到了很多，因为你在 X 平台上发布了很多很棒的小帖子、视频以及采访片段。因此，展示自己所创造的东西并把它推广出去的能力，在未来是极其重要的技能，特别是在开发软件和新事物的边际成本不断降低的时代。
You need to build an audience. You need to know how to talk to people. You need to build your own signature brand and style. And so maybe they're a little too young for that one, but I guess taking them into hackathons, probably like, you know, back is influencing their neural networks or pre-training data for the future. I love it. They're going to tell their friends. And my dad took me to hackathons. What's that?
你需要建立一个观众群体。你需要知道如何与人沟通。你需要打造自己的品牌和风格。也许他们现在还太年轻，但我想让他们参加编程马拉松，可能会对他们的大脑网络产生影响，为将来的发展做准备。我喜欢这样。他们会告诉朋友们：“我爸爸带我去参加编程马拉松。”这是什么？
So are you actually are you in charge of learning to code? Because it's interesting. You mentioned math, eloquence, presenting, and then okay, it's also learning. Yeah, I think again, learning how to prompt, learning how to code with V0, we show you the code when we build things. So if you can build that mapping of like maybe not learning how to code in the necessarily in like the as an abstraction, if you do have a knack for it, kind of like, you know, I'm a big believer also that my five kids have like super diverse personalities and inclinations.
那么你实际上负责学习编程吗？因为这很有趣。你提到了数学、表达能力和演示，然后还有学习。是的，我认为再次学习如何进行提示、如何用V0编码的过程是非常重要的，当我们构建东西时，我们会向你展示代码。所以如果你能够建立那种映射，也许不一定是以抽象的方式来学习编码，如果你对此有天赋的话。这就像，我非常相信我的五个孩子有着非常多样化的个性和兴趣。
And I don't want to be, you know, pushing for something that they wouldn't want to do or whatever. And so learning to code in the abstract might be good for some people. My may not be the fun thing to do for other people. And so what I would recommend is try to understand how things work. So if you prompt V0 or any other tool and he generates some code, try to build an understanding of what that does at a high level. It's like actually maybe an extension even of eloquence. One of the bets that I made early on with Versel that really paid off is we, Versel, maybe as a metaphor is like AWS in easy mode for a lot of people. We have a very large user base of people that would have otherwise not have been able to configure all of the in in synouts of the cloud. But do want the scale flexibility speed, et cetera. They want to create a very high quality products and services.
我不想强迫他们去做他们不愿意做的事情。对有些人来说，学习编程的抽象概念可能是不错的选择，但对其他人来说可能就不那么有趣。因此，我建议大家努力理解事物的运作方式。例如，如果你使用V0或其他工具生成了一段代码，试着从宏观上了解它的作用。实际上，这可能是对表达能力的一个提升。我在Versel早期做了一个非常成功的决定，可以形象地说，Versel就像一个简化版的AWS，适合很多人使用。我们有庞大的用户群，这些用户原本可能无法配置云服务的方方面面，但他们希望获得规模、灵活性、速度等方面的优势，并希望创造出高质量的产品和服务。
So I like to give the Super Bowl example because one of our customers ramp at a 43 X increase in traffic when they're when they're at went life. The engineer that worked on that only needed to learn next. Yes. Then they pushed their code of Versel and now they can reach an audience of a hundred million people without a blip, a hundred percent uptime. That superpower comes from we made it as easy as possible to get started. And the language that we choose is actually very relevant in the story. JavaScript is almost in my mind has always been almost like the English of programming languages. It's a language that if you learn it, you reach billions of devices. So it's not a coincidence that when you ask chat to be tea or an anthropic or Gemini to build you a web app, it uses this tools. It uses JavaScript. It uses React.
我喜欢用超级碗的例子来说明这个问题。我们的一位客户在直播时流量增加了43倍。负责的工程师只需要学习Next.js，并将代码上传到Vercel，就能达到亿级观众而且不掉链子，保证100%在线。这种能力来源于我们尽可能简化了入门步骤。我们选择的编程语言在这个故事中也很关键。对我而言，JavaScript几乎就像编程语言中的英语，如果你学会了它，就能接触到数以亿计的设备。因此，当你要求ChatGPT或Anthropic、Gemini帮你构建一个网页应用时，它们会使用这些工具：JavaScript和React。
It's become the lingua franca of building products on the web. So I would tell to make I would say to make it slow. If you do want to go deeper into programming, start learning there. You can reach huge numbers of people. If you have a passion, I would say there's going to be a fundamental engineering skill that's going to be useful for decades or centuries to come, which is creating foundational infrastructure. Think about LLAMS in the in terms of their like oracles that can go and write software for you. But there's a limit to how much software they can write. There's context windows. There is time and computational constraints. So it's very hard for an agent today to go and say, I'm going to write a cloud from scratch. I'm going to write all the foundational services. I'm going to write the framework from scratch. I'm going to write the compiler. No, the LLAMS orchestrating those tools and infrastructure.
这是在构建网络产品时的通用语言。因此，我建议放慢节奏。如果你确实想深入学习编程，可以从这里开始。这可以让你接触到大量的人群。如果你有热情，我想说的是，有一种基础的工程技能将在未来几十年甚至几个世纪内都非常有用，那就是创建基础设施。 想想LLAMS，就像是可以为你编写软件的神谕。但是，他们能够编写的软件是有限的，受到上下文窗口、时间和计算限制的制约。所以，现在的智能代理很难自己从头开始编写一个云系统，编写所有基础服务，编写框架，或者编写编译器。目前，LLAMS更多是协作这些工具和基础架构的协调者。
It's not writing the compiler from scratch. Otherwise, you get into the Newton thing in order to create an Apple, you have to create the entire underlying universe. No, the LLAMS are interoperating with the universe as it exists. And so the engineers that learn foundational infrastructure are probably going to be extremely empowered still for years to come. Like there's a world where you could argue, chat Gpt will build the next version of chat Gpt. What I'm hearing from you is that's a long ways away, if ever. Absolutely. This is what you know, the common the running joke is that all of these companies have you go to their career spagians like engineers engineer, right?
这并不是从头开始编写编译器。否则，就像牛顿为了创造一个苹果，必须创造整个潜在的宇宙一样。目前，LLAMS（注：可能是指某个技术或系统）是在现有的宇宙中进行互操作。因此，未来几年，那些学习基础设施的工程师可能会非常有力量。你可以设想一个世界，在那里可以说ChatGPT会创建下一版本的ChatGPT。但从你的观点来看，这样的事情还遥不可及，甚至可能永远不会发生。没错。通常的玩笑是，这些公司的招聘页面上总会出现“工程师的工程师”这样的职位。
The counterpoint of that is that at a per cell, we had we have 150 engineers that can write code. And 600 total headcount. Now we have 600 engineers. One of the best things that some of the best things that I've seen created with V0 have not come from our Azure team. They've come from the marketing team. They come from the sales team. They've come from the product management team. The product management team is fascinating, right? Because now they're actually building the product. So last night I saw how we've specced out in V0. Think of it as like a live PRD. We've specced out how the new functionality for deploying a V0 to per cell is going to work.
反过来说，我们每个部门之前只有150名能写代码的工程师，总人数600人。现在我们有600名工程师。一些最好的产品创意并不是来自我们的Azure团队，而是来自市场营销团队、销售团队和产品管理团队。产品管理团队特别有趣，因为他们现在实际上在构建产品。昨天晚上我看到我们如何在V0中详细规划，这有点像一个实时的产品需求文档（PRD）。我们已经规划好新的功能，说明V0如何部署到每个单元。
The amount of detail that was contained in that V0, I mean, we're all just saying, well, just ship it. There's nothing else with this guys, right? Like it was animated. It was interactive. We were demonstrated the error state, the success estate, the slow stream state. So it really empowers product builders, not only with technical skills, I think that does a disservice to the tool. It empowers them to explore and augment their thinking with a lot of things that perhaps it wouldn't have considered otherwise. A lot of states of the product that wouldn't have considered otherwise. The name V0 implies the product is for prototypes for the kind of like the first attempt at stuff.
在V0中包含的细节量简直让人惊叹，我们都不禁说，那就直接发布吧。真的没什么好挑剔的，产品就像是动画展示一样，具有互动性。我们被展示了错误状态、成功状态和缓慢流状态。这不仅让产品开发者在技术上如虎添翼，我觉得如果只谈技术还低估了这个工具。它让开发者有机会去探索和扩展思维，去考虑那些他们可能之前不会想到的产品状态。V0这个名字本身就意味着这个产品是针对原型开发的，就像是对新尝试的首次探索。
And that's definitely where all these tools are are finding product market fit. Prototypes, PMs showing a thing at working versus just design. You expect V0 and other tools to get to a place where you can build salesforce.com and scale at the billions of dollars. Like you do. We already have a customer, an enterprise customer of V0 that only works with V0. All their products, all their features, all their client communications are V0 native. Two days ago, I just heard anecdotally an ex. Someone tells me my brother just sold his first website to a client completely built in V0.
这确实是所有这些工具找到产品市场契合点的地方。原型、产品经理展示的是功能，而不仅仅是设计。你预计 V0 等工具将发展到一个可以构建 salesforce.com 并实现数十亿美元规模的地步。事实上，我们已经有一个企业客户只使用 V0。他们的所有产品、功能和客户通信都是 V0 原生的。两天前，我偶然听说一个例子。有人告诉我，他的兄弟刚刚完全用 V0 构建了一个网站并成功卖给了客户。
Yesterday, an investor conference, an investor walks up to me and says, two of my friends just got engaged on V0. V0 is a dating app now. So the engagement website, the proposal, the wedding, it's all V0 native. So because we've integrated V0, the versatile infrastructure, we can do that whole story that I just told you of like I have a website to build and it can get it in front of a hundred million people. We can enable that for everybody now.
昨天，在一场投资者会议上，一位投资者走到我面前跟我说，他的两个朋友刚刚在V0上订婚了。V0现在是一款约会应用。因此，从订婚网站、求婚到婚礼，一切都与V0紧密相关。因为我们整合了V0这个多功能的基础设施，我们可以实现场景中的所有步骤，比如创建一个网站并推广给一亿人。现在，我们可以为每个人实现这样的功能。
And so the end-to-end, full stack, V0 native and build on this awesome fluid serverless infrastructure that scales to billions of people, all just from prompts or screenshots or just copying and pasting your priorities into the tool. So let's help people be successful with V0 and then let's also do a demo. But before we get there, let me ask you this. So imagine you could magically sit next to someone who's about to use V0 for the first time and whisper a tip in their ear to be successful with V0. What would your, what would a couple tips be?
这段英文大意是：我们要介绍一个从头到尾、全栈、原生V0版本的系统。它是基于一个完美的无服务器架构，能够扩展到数十亿用户。使用这个系统非常方便，只需要简单地输入提示、截屏或者复制粘贴你的优先事项到工具中即可。我们的目标是帮助大家成功使用V0，并且我们也准备了一些演示。
不过在此之前，我想问你一个问题：如果你能神奇地坐在正在首次使用V0的用户旁边，并对他们耳语一些成功的小贴士，你会告诉他们什么呢？或者说，你会有什么建议呢？
So number one is you can be as ambitious as you want in terms of what you asked the tool. If you can steer the tool towards some kind of inspiration that you have, you're always going to get better results. If you don't have ideas on what to build or what to prompt, I would recommend using the V0 community so that you can find something to fork to get started. I would say in some ways, if you have technical skills, this one is interesting. But have some suspension of this belief. Like what I, like it humbled me, right?
首先，你可以根据自己的目标尽可能地对工具提出高要求。如果你能引导工具朝着你的一些灵感方向发展，你通常会获得更好的结果。如果你没有关于要创建什么或者如何引导的想法，我建议使用 V0 社区来寻找一些可以启发的项目，从而启动你的工作。在某种程度上，如果你具备技术技能，这个事情会更加有趣。但是，请保留一些怀疑态度。就像我一样，这个过程让我认识到自己的不足。
I was saying about like accessibility. So the open mind that about whether the tool actually knows some things that you might not know. And so focus more on the product description, right? Focus more on like what do you want the end user to experience? What do you want the product to do and try to be open minded about how well the tool can implement it? Those would be my main ones. You also have to have a sense of iteration, I guess. Think of it this way. If you were working with a design firm or an agency that you've hired, you will go back and forth and say try something else.
我之前提到过关于易用性的问题。问题在于，这个工具是否知道一些你可能不知道的事情。因此，我们应该更多地关注产品描述。想想你希望最终用户体验到什么？你希望产品能做到什么？同时，尝试保持开放的心态，不妨想想这工具能多大程度上实现这些功能。这是我主要想表达的。你也需要有一个迭代的概念。就像这样想：如果你正在和一家设计公司或聘请的代理机构合作，你会反复沟通，并不断地提出建议以尝试其他方案。
If you were coaching an engineer that's getting stuck in something, you would say try something else. It's amazing how many times I've gotten unstuck in this hero by just saying like, just try something else. Just saying that as the prompt. Just saying that, like I mean, a chat is like V0. It's like, yeah, you know, like you have a one-on-one performance review with the tool, hey, wait a talk. Try something else. What you're doing so far is not working.
如果你在指导一位遇到困难的工程师，你可能会建议他们尝试其他方法。我亲身经历过很多次，只是简单地告诉自己“试试别的办法”，结果就成功解困。这就像在和工具进行一对一的绩效评估时你会说：“嘿，等等，试试其他方法。”这意味着你目前的方法行不通，所以需要寻找新的思路。这样的提示往往能带来惊人的效果。希望这样的建议能够帮到那位工程师。
It's amazing. Like one fitness function that I'm keeping in my head is I really want to find the thing that it cannot build with V0. So I, as part of the V0 community, I have my own profile. We'll share the link with people. You can see six or seven things that I've built that I consider to be pretty impressive. So for example, I was flying from Tokyo to San Francisco. The internet was horrible. What I like to do during flights is I like to monitor our own flight on the flight. So I opened flight radar or whatever.
这真是太棒了。我脑海中一直有一个目标，就是想找出V0无法创建的东西。作为V0社区的一员，我有自己的个人资料，会把链接分享给大家。你可以看到我做的六七个项目，我觉得都很令人印象深刻。比如说，我从东京飞往旧金山的航班上，网络信号很差。我喜欢在飞行过程中监控我们的航班轨迹，于是我就打开了飞行雷达之类的工具。
And I was extremely bored as well. And I noticed that flight radar, I don't know which one it was. A flight radar is I get four or five of them. They were very bloated. They had ads. They were not what I wanted the flight radar to look like. So I built my own during the flight with the worst internet connection that you could imagine in the world, integrated into a flight data API called Edge Aviation. So I, I, this is what I told V0. You're going to build, we're going to build the best flight radar on the planet.
我也感到非常无聊。我注意到航班雷达软件上的广告太多了，并不符合我的期望。我不知道具体是哪一个航班雷达，因为我有四五个这样的应用。它们都很臃肿，广告也多。所以，我在飞行过程中，利用全球最糟糕的网络连接，自己开发了一款航班雷达，并整合了一个叫做Edge Aviation的飞行数据API。我告诉V0，我们要打造全世界最好的航班雷达。
I didn't, I wasn't prescriptive about how. So it used a tool called MapBox and a JavaScript library called Leaflet. I didn't tell them that or her and it's easier with what it is. And subsequently, once we cooked on the design, which looks, I would say beautiful. I then got more ambitious and I said, all right, let's like, let's make it real now. And by the way, that's actually how I would work. So it's how I like to work.
我没有具体规定要怎么做。所以他们使用了一个叫做MapBox的工具和一个叫做Leaflet的JavaScript库。我没有告诉他们或她这些，因为这样反而更简单。随后，当我们敲定了设计，我认为那个设计看起来很美。我变得更有野心，我说，好吧，现在让我们实现它。顺便说一句，这其实就是我的工作方式，也是我喜欢的工作方式。
I like to work experience first. And that's also how versatile was built. Let's start with the front end. Let's start with the planes on the screen. And by the way, there's a lot of subtleties here. For example, there's so many flights going on at any given time that there's just too many. So I had to work with V0 on improving performance. And once again, I wasn't prescriptive. I just said, we have a lot of flights, chief. Let's, did you say chief? I actually do say that a lot.
我喜欢先获得工作经验。这也是Versatile是如何建立起来的。我们从前端开始吧，从屏幕上的飞机开始。而且，这里有很多细微之处。比如，说实话，在任何时候都有太多的航班，所以必须要解决这个问题。因此，我和V0一起努力提高性能。我并没有提出详细指示，只是说：我们有很多航班，负责人，我们要做什么？顺便说一下，我确实常常这么说。
And this is I think when I shared it on X, it blew a lot of engineers minds because it created a canvas based. Canvas is the sort of underlying rendering surface that very sophisticated products use like Figma. And it created this awesome overlay on top of the map that can render tens of thousands of flights at any given time. And then I told it, let's make it a full stack application. I, okay, plug it into the, the flights API. So that's an example of like, we cooked. And there was no limit.
我觉得当我在平台X上分享这个项目时，它让很多工程师感到震惊，因为它创建了一个基于画布（Canvas）的图层。画布是用于底层渲染的基础界面，像Figma这样的高级产品都会用到它。我们的项目在地图上创建了一个很棒的覆盖层，可以实时渲染成千上万的航班。然后我对项目说，我们让它变成一个完整的全栈应用程序。那么好吧，我们把它接入航班API。这就是一个我们“烹饪”出的例子，没有任何限制。
And so I'm always in the lookout, the service that I'm providing to the V0 community is, I'm part of the team that it's really trying to break this and say, like, can it not build something? Or, and even when it does build it, we're very obsessed with quality and performance. Like it has to be real. That's the, that's our commitment to our users. And how much of this cost? How much time does this take to make something like this?
因此，我总是在寻找机会为V0社区提供服务。我是团队的一员，致力于挑战现有的框架，问自己：能否不按照常规的方式去构建某些东西？即使我们成功构建了，我们也非常注重质量和性能，要求它必须是真实可靠的。这是我们对用户的承诺。那么，做到这一切需要多少成本？需要花费多少时间去完成这样的工作呢？
So the, the flight rate or example or, or visitors, the flight rate are examples specifically just like, I mean, that one probably took less than two hours with the worst internet. Sorry, Jim. And our lens, I love you, but like, you give me a hard time. And, and what did that cost? Like, like 10 bucks? Like, what would you estimate? I mean, I pay for the $20 or these just 20 bucks. So, okay, for a month. So it's like a month, but you use it for two hours, 20 bucks.
所以，比如航班价格或访客数量，这些都是例子。我是说，那次旅行可能连两个小时都不到，即使在网络不好的情况下。抱歉，吉姆。我爱你，但每次你都让我很难办。这次费用有多少呢？大概10美元？你会怎么估计？我是说，我支付了20美元，就像每个月20美元的费用，但是只用了两个小时。
Yeah. If you had engineers building this, how much do you think that would cost? How long do you think that would take? I mean, weeks easily, easily. And that's like tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe the most cracked engineer out of our cell could knock it out. And like, without using any AI, could knock it out in a couple days. But then what about the design? What about like me? Because I am the bottleneck engineer.
好的。如果让工程师来建造这个，你觉得需要多少钱？大概需要多长时间？我觉得，轻轻松松就是几周的时间。而且花费可能就是数万美元。或许我们团队最厉害的工程师不用 AI 几天就能搞定。但那设计呢？还有我呢？因为我就是那个瓶颈工程师。
And this is what's amazing about this collaboration, right? Because like, I'm providing the product guidance. I'm saying, draw a dashed line between the, by the way, this is a, these are just blue in my mind. So hard. I said, draw a dashed line between the two destination airports. And these are said, well, I have to account for the spherical, or what is it, is a pseudo sphere for the curvature of the earth.
这就是这次合作令人惊叹的地方，对吧？因为我在提供产品指导。我建议在两个目的地机场之间画一条虚线。顺便说一下，这在我脑海中只是蓝色的。然后他们提到，为了地球的曲率，需要考虑球体或者说伪球体。
It's like, okay, these zero super genius, like whatever. And so that's what I mentioned about like how you can kind of go back and forth. It's like a product copilot is like an all-knowing being. One of our users yesterday submitted feedback to the tool. And it was positive feedback. We were very happy. What they were saying, like, these years, I guess super genius, five-year-old PhD with ADHD.
这段话可以翻译成中文，表达成易读的意思如下：
就像，好吧，这些零超级天才，不管怎样。我之前提到过的那种来回切换的感觉。就好像一个产品副驾驶是一种全知的存在。我们昨天有一个用户给这个工具提交了反馈，而且是积极的反馈，我们非常高兴。他们说，有点像这些年，超级天才、五岁就获得博士学位，同时还患有多动症。
So like, you still have to, I'm not going to, I'm not going to oversell this. It's like, you know, it knows everything about everything is like, it's everything perfect. Of course. But it has this sparks of brilliance. Really, truly, I think I've been a big believer that AGI undersells what we're collectively building because we already have all of this as sparks of super intelligence.
就像是，你仍然需要明白，我不想过分夸大这个事情。它并不是说知道所有事情的完美存在。当然不是。但它确实有闪光的智慧。真的，我一直相信，AGI（人工通用智能）低估了我们集体所构建的东西，因为我们已经拥有了这些超级智能的火花。
I don't believe that these years and AGI, if it knows everything about how to draw a dashed line according to the curvature of the earth and this high-performance map of airplanes, like that's just superhuman. And yeah, it's a joy to use. Today's episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads. One of the hardest and also most important parts of V2B marketing is reaching the right people.
我不认为在这几年内，AGI（人工广义智能）如果它知道如何根据地球的曲率绘制虚线以及这种高性能的飞机地图，那算是超人的。是的，使用它确实很愉快。今天这一集由LinkedIn广告赞助。B2B（企业对企业）营销中最困难且最重要的部分之一是接触到合适的人群。
I am constantly getting ads for products that I will never buy. And I almost feel sorry for the money that these companies are spending, pitching me on their spend management software or some kind of cyber security solution that my one-man business just does not need. When you're ready to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers.
我总是收到一些我永远不会购买的产品广告，几乎为这些公司在我身上花钱而感到遗憾，他们向我推销的是我这样的一人公司根本不需要的费用管理软件或某种网络安全解决方案。当你准备好接触合适的专业人士时，请使用LinkedIn广告。LinkedIn已经发展成拥有超过十亿专业人士的网络，其中包括1.3亿决策者。
And that's where it stands apart from other ad platforms. You can target your ad buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue. All the professionals that you need to reach in one place. Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so that you can try it for yourself.
这就是它与其他广告平台的不同之处。你可以根据职位名称、行业、公司、角色、职级、技能，甚至公司收入来定位你的广告受众。所有你需要接触的专业人士都在一个地方。别再把预算浪费在错误的受众上，现在就开始在 LinkedIn 广告上精准定位合适的专业人士。LinkedIn 甚至会给你下一次推广提供 100 美元的信用额度，让你自己试用。
Just go to LinkedIn.com slash pod Lenny. That's LinkedIn.com slash pod Lenny. Terms in conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads. As you talk, it's interesting the way I'm thinking about this now. There's almost three core skills in building apps with AI. There's figuring out what to build. There's making it look good, like design. And then there's getting it unstuck. It's interesting how these are going to coaching. Coaching it. Yeah, or just like, here's the database area. I don't know. It's not figuring it out. On the, I guess, does that resonate? I've never thought about it. Absolutely. In fact, I'll tell you a little bit of a story of something that I, even going way back in time, next year I was on React. React was this UI component library that Facebook created. Actually, with very similar goals, they had so many cracked engineers and they had to help them collaborate on an enormous product surface.
只需访问 LinkedIn.com/podLenny。就是 LinkedIn.com/podLenny。条款和条件仅适用于 LinkedIn 广告。 在讨论时，我现在的思路变得很有趣。构建 AI 应用程序几乎涉及三个核心技能：确定要构建什么，设计外观，以及如何克服障碍。 这些让人联想到指导，或者像是提供数据库方面的帮助。我不太确定，但你明白我的意思吗？我从未这么想过。确实如此。实际上，我要讲一个故事，即使是追溯到很久以前，明年我将在 React 项目中。React 是 Facebook 创建的一个 UI 组件库。事实上，目标非常相似，他们有许多顶尖工程师，需要帮助他们在庞大的产品平台上进行协作。
They invented, or at least pioneered, I would say, the concept of this component as a unit of reusability, as a building blog, as a Lego brick of how you build software. There's no coincidence that LLM's love to work with React components, by the way. And one of the things that always stood out to me about that model is it basically enables people to scale in how they worked together. And one of the key design principles that they embedded into this thing is they call it a scape hatch. The API, when React doesn't perfectly model your problem with its component system, they give you a scape hatch. They say, okay, engineer, you're on your own now. There's no guard rails. And in fact, one of this scape hatches is called dangerously set, inner HTML. They wanted the developer to know, untruth territory, but they did give people the API. That is a profound systems design engineering principle.
他们发明了，或者至少是开创了这种理念：将组件视为可重用的单元，就像搭积木那样构建软件。顺便说一下，大型语言模型（LLM）非常喜欢与 React 组件一起工作，这并非偶然。而且，这种模型让我印象深刻的一点是它基本上让人们能够在协作中实现规模化。他们在这个设计中嵌入的一个关键设计原则是“逃生舱口”。当 React 的组件系统不能完美地对应你的问题时，他们提供了一个“逃生舱口”。他们会说，好吧，工程师，现在你要靠自己了，没有护栏。实际上，有一个逃生舱口被称为“dangerously setInnerHTML”，他们想让开发者意识到自己进入了未知领域，但还是给予了开发者这个 API。这是一种深刻的系统设计工程原则。
And throughout my life, I've always thought about scape hatches. One amazing scape hatch that Bezier has is that you're looking at the code that we're generating with NextShast. You can edit it. You can even have other experts look at it. One thing that one of our demos last night came from this awesome company, Luma Labs. They're creating one of the most amazing video models in the world. And they used V0 and Versel extensively to build their application, their websites, et cetera. And the design engineer was talking about how he was on a V0 that had 120 or so iterations. So he was he deep into the latent space. He was in the matrix. And at one point, he got stuck, but you know what he did. He copied and pasted the code that we generated and he gave it to Chattu PTO1. And Chattu PTO1 thought about the solution. I honestly, I'd never even thought about this by some. I was so blown away.
在我的一生中，我总是在思考“逃生舱口”。贝塞尔提供了一个不可思议的“逃生舱口”：您可以查看我们用 NextShast 生成的代码，对其进行编辑，甚至可以让其他专家查看。有一个很棒的公司Luma Labs，昨晚的一个演示来自他们。他们正在创建世界上最出色的视频模型之一，并广泛使用 V0 和 Versel 来构建他们的应用程序、网站等。设计工程师谈到，他正在处理一个有大约120次迭代的 V0。他深入到了潜在空间，仿佛进入了矩阵。在某个时刻，他遇到了困难，但是你知道他做了什么吗？他复制并粘贴了我们生成的代码，然后把它给了 Chattu PTO1。Chattu PTO1 设法找到了解决方案。这是我之前从未想过的办法，我感到无比震撼。
And it doesn't speak to I love your third point of you need to learn to skill how to get unstuck. It's like a profound like life lesson. Like it's just more a generic life advice. You need to get Facebook actually had a principle. Don't get blocked like seek to get unblocked, seek help from other people. What's fascinating is that you can seek help from other AI's to get unstuck. And those escape hatches of like actually understanding and seeing the code underneath and even being able to say, okay, now let's use Git. Let's turn this into a less more of a hybrid project, not just prompts, but also traditional software engineering. The fact that that door is open to you is extremely valuable. Let's actually make the super concrete and show people what this actually looks like in V0.
这段话的意思是：“我非常喜欢你提到的第三点：你需要学习如何摆脱困境。这就像是一个重要的人生课题，而不仅仅是普遍的人生建议。就像Facebook曾经有一个原则：不要被阻碍，寻求解除阻碍，向他人寻求帮助。有趣的是，你可以向其他人工智能寻求帮助来脱困。理解和看到底层代码，并能够说：‘好吧，现在我们来使用Git，将这个项目转变为一个更融合的项目，不仅仅是提示，还包括传统的软件工程’，这样的途径对你来说非常有价值。让我们把这个具体化，向大家展示在V0中这实际看起来是什么样子的。”
So pull up, I'll share a screen and then we'll do a little live demo. Keep it brief. I find people are like, okay, I get it. But we'll make it fun and brief at the same time. There it is. I see it. Beautiful. How? Okay, help you ship. Yeah, of course. We're all about shipping. Okay. So as I mentioned, you write in English, you yap into the tool. I'll say for a demo, let's create a contact sales form in the style of, by the way, I had a typo, I don't care. The lives get it. It's self-subreme, the clothing company for an online store. Now, I mentioned that sometimes people get blocked on like, there is like a writer paralysis, a dizzist app. So we added enhanced prompt. So now, like, you're tapping into the late and space of the model, which has a random component to it.
好的，那么请大家坐过来，我会分享屏幕，然后我们做一个现场演示。简短一点。我发现大家通常会想“好，我明白了。”但是我们会让演示既有趣又简短。好了，看到了，太棒了。怎么？哦，帮助你发货。是的，当然。我们的服务就是关于发货的。正如我提到的，你用英语输入内容，然后通过工具进行对话。举个例子，今天我们来演示一下如何在在线商店中创建一个以服装公司自高自大风格的销售联系表。顺便说一下，我刚刚有个拼写错误，我不在意，现场都懂的。重要的是，我提到有时候人们会遇到写作障碍，就像写作瘫痪一样。所以我们增加了增强提示。这样，你就可以使用模型的潜在空间，其中还带有随机成分。
And by the way, this is still not a substitute. It doesn't contradict what I said earlier of you, knowing the meaningful tokens, knowing what, what like the right style is and what it's called and whatever is still highly valuable. So the first thing you're going to notice is that as the model thinks, you can introspect its thinking. So do we add it this recently? And it's been most inspired actually by the deep seek revolution, I would say. So the fact that when you tell it develop a contact sales form, like, what is it going to do? Like, do we talk about scape hatches? Okay, it's going to use shatsy and ui is going to use tell when CSS is going to use react. And this is your opportunity that if these years are not doing exactly what you wanted, this is your opportunity to actually go and sort of correct or influence or give feedback and so on. So you're going to notice it spits out a bunch of files. And it gives me the thing that I wanted, right?
顺便说一下，这仍然不是一个替代品。这并不与我之前对你所说的相矛盾，了解有意义的符号，了解正确的风格是什么、叫什么等等，仍然是非常有价值的。所以你首先会注意到的是，当模型思考时，你可以审视它的思路。我们最近添加了这一点，这实际上受到了深度学习革命的启发。我想说的是，比如当你告诉它开发一个联系销售表单时，它会做些什么呢？我们是否谈到过紧急出口？它会使用Shatsy和UI，会使用Tailwind CSS和React。如果这些年没能完全实现你的需求，这就是你可以纠正、影响或提供反馈的机会。你会注意到它会输出一堆文件，并给出我想要的东西，对吧？
So I'm going to zoom out a little bit here. So a couple of things that stand out here that, I mean, as a, again, as an experienced engineer, I can point out, the underlying component system that it uses is the same component system that the best tools on the plan are built with. This is called shatsy and if you go to groc.com today, they're using shatsy and to build their UI, they're using next shares, you're getting that caliber of code. The other thing that it did is people on social media talk about this lot. When you use a global shared component system with the world, you don't want everything to look the same. So the fact that he was able to apply the style and he kind of knew what Supreme looked like was kind of cool.
我要稍微放大一下来看这个问题。有几件事让我特别注意到，作为一名经验丰富的工程师，我可以指出，这个系统使用的底层组件系统与市场上最好的工具所使用的组件系统是一样的。这个系统叫做 Shatsy，如果你今天访问 groc.com，他们也在使用 Shatsy 来构建他们的用户界面，他们使用的是 next shares，你得到的代码质量是相当高的。
另一件被广泛讨论的事情是，在社交媒体上，人们经常谈论这个话题。当使用一个全球共享的组件系统时，不希望所有东西看起来都一样。因此，他能够应用特定的风格，并确切了解 Supreme 的外观，这一点还挺酷的。
But now I'm going to say actually because I'm building a financial institution, make it more serious, make it in the style of, let's say Charles Schwab, change typepaces. So this is the iteration process of like, I'm going to go and give feedback to the model, I'm going to make it try different things. So once that initial generation was already created, now the model is actually acting more as an editor. It's going and making tweaks to what's already been built. And this actually scales to very large projects. You could have started with something much bigger.
现在我要说，实际上因为我正在创建一家金融机构，所以需要让它看起来更严肃一些，比如像Charles Schwab那样，改变字体风格。这是一个迭代的过程：我会去给模型提供反馈，让它尝试不同的东西。一旦初始版本已经创建好，模型就会更多地作为编辑来进行工作，对已经构建的内容进行调整。这种方式可以应用到非常大型的项目中，即使一开始的规模要大得多也没问题。
So in the meantime, I'm going to show you what Luma Labs created with BZR, which is absolutely phenomenal. I love this last night. It already has 2004. I was telling you about the power of our community. So by the way, you can just click community here on the BZR sidebar. I'm going to fork it because they generously shared it with the world. Notice all the incredible animations here. By the way, they shipped this to higher and attract talent to their company. I recommend them. By the way, like you should, if you're a brand designer, take them into consideration.
在此期间，我将向你展示Luma Labs使用BZR创造的作品，这真是太了不起了。我昨晚非常喜欢它，现在它已经有2004了。我之前和你聊过我们社区的力量。顺便提一下，你只需点击BZR侧边栏上的“社区”即可。我打算fork它，因为他们很慷慨地与全世界分享。注意这里所有令人惊叹的动画。顺便提一下，他们发布这项作品是为了吸引并招聘公司的优秀人才。我推荐他们。如果你是品牌设计师，可以考虑他们。
Notice that it's an interactive. Everything is AI generated. They use their own AI image generation tool to create this beautiful frames. These are all AI generated as well. And it's interactive. So like there is the auto-playing functionality. This is actually a complex layout in animation system that they built entirely in VZR. I was telling you that at one point, they even got some advice from O1. So shout out to OpenAI. I'm going to say make it sepia style colors.
请注意，这是一个互动内容。所有的一切都是由人工智能生成的。他们使用自己的AI图像生成工具来创建这些美丽的画面。这些也是AI生成的，而且是互动的。例如，它具有自动播放功能。这实际上是一个复杂的动画系统布局，完全用VZR搭建完成。我之前提到过，他们甚至向O1寻求过一些建议，所以对OpenAI致以敬意。我打算把它变成复古棕褐色风格。
So this is an example of like, okay, I fork something. I already have a starting point. My bank grade content form is ready in the meantime. Another fun thing to do is you can start with a screenshot. So I'll use another next.js user as an example, which is fortune.com. Shout out to them. They built a slick website. But let's say that I'm actually wanting to break into the news business. So I'm just going to paste a screenshot. I could have also attached a Figma file.
这是一个例子：我分叉了一个项目，已经有了一个起点。同时，我的银行级内容表单已经准备好了。另一个有趣的事情是，你可以从截图开始。我会以另一个使用 next.js 的用户为例，就是 fortune.com。向他们致敬，他们建了一个很炫的网站。但假设我实际上想进入新闻行业，那么我只需粘贴一个截图。我也可以附加一个 Figma 文件。
And I'm going to have VZR already knows. VZR can answer questions as well about the engineering design product world. So like I can ask VZR what is a newsletter explain with a diagram. Use Lenny as an example. So VZR is also a knowledge-seeking tool. But we do strongly sort of like, quote unquote steer the tool to create things. So if I paste a screenshot, as you can see, it's cooking on creating a hopefully awesome news website. I specifically ask because I think it's funny to explain a newsletter with a diagram.
我要使用VZR，VZR已经知道这些事情。VZR也能回答关于工程设计产品世界的问题。比如，我可以问VZR什么是通讯（newsletter），并让它用图示来解释，用Lenny作为例子。所以VZR也是一个知识获取工具。但是我们确实“强烈地”引导这个工具去创造东西。如果我粘贴一个截图，你可以看到它正在努力创建一个可能很棒的新闻网站。我特别这样问是因为我觉得用图示来解释通讯很有趣。
VZR can create again like explanations content knowledge. The creator is Lenny. You were a former Airbnb product lead. I guess I should have used some examples from Airbnb by the way. But let's look at here at what it created with fortune. So notice that I'm just noticing now the the cyber should have been on the center. Let's use the zoom out a little bit. Let's use the refinement tool to center this. I called this by the way one of the hardest problems in computer sites. This is actually centering things.
VZR可以再次创建类似解释性内容知识的东西。创作者是Lenny，他曾是Airbnb的产品负责人。我想我应该顺便用一些Airbnb的例子。不过，让我们看看它和Fortune一起创造了什么。注意到我现在才发现，网络应该在中间。让我们稍微缩小一些，然后用精细调整工具来把它置中。顺便说一下，我认为这其实是计算机领域中最难的问题之一，即如何居中物体。
So that's right. Centering a div. And in fact, look at it. It was a div. So notice that I did a precise sort of inline prompt. In the difference between VZR and a lot of other tools is that yes, you do have the code and code is very important. But I call it code last rather than code first. You're living in the product. So is centered that another website that I love also built with next.js is semaphore. So I really like their sepia style. So I'm going to say use this apply this style instead. Include your. So you're sharing a screen. So you used a screenshot to design to build the site. It has a different screenshot to tell it will make it look like this. Yes. And so the idea is that the zero can grow different aspects of what needs to build. It can be functional aspects. It can be layout aspects.
所以，是的，居中一个 div 块。事实上，看一下，它就是一个 div。注意，我使用了精确的内联提示。VZR 与许多其他工具的不同之处在于，虽然代码非常重要，但我称之为“代码放后”，而不是“代码优先”。你是在产品中进行开发。所以在另一个我喜欢的网站 semaphore 中，居中效果也是这样实现的，该网站也是用 Next.js 构建的。我非常喜欢他们的棕褐色风格。因此，我想说应用这种风格，并包含你的设计。当你共享屏幕时，用截图来设计和构建网站。它有不同的截图用来告诉它，使其看起来像这样。是的，所以这个想法是 VZR 可以扩展需要构建的不同方面，可能是功能方面，也可能是布局方面。
One and one of the things that's also very important to know is we influence the model. So a lot of the things that you would have had to prompt you might get for free. One that's important to call out is responsiveness. So as an example, if I notice that if I do this, it's going to like make it work quite well in mobile. It's going to give me that hamburger menu. I can now tell it like apply that style to everything. In the meantime, I'll show you this is actually to me very, very impressive. And I don't know why today I'm so fixated in the theme of sepia. But notice that not only did it just the background, I hope people get noticed this. It applied it to the checkboxes. And it applied the CSS. I'm assuming this is CSS filter. Yeah, it applied a CSS filter just for the sake of it because I'm a nerd. I'm going to look at it.
我们有一个非常重要的事情需要明确，就是我们能够影响这个模型。因此，很多你原本需要提示的东西，可能会自动完成。其中一个需要特别提到的是响应能力。比如说，如果我注意到某个操作能让它在移动设备上运行得很好，并且会显示汉堡菜单，我现在可以告诉它把这个样式应用到所有地方。同时，这其实让我感到非常惊讶。我也不知道今天为什么我特别关注棕褐色的主题。但请注意，它不仅改变了背景，还把相同的效果应用到了复选框上。而且它还使用了 CSS。我猜这是 CSS 滤镜。因为我是个技术迷，我可能会去研究一下。
But yes, it applied a CSS filter. Confession time. I actually didn't know that there was a sepia function in the filter property of CSS. There were many ways to accomplish this. You could have also read the images or the videos to a canvas and like apply all kinds of algorithms and whatever. I like that it did more elegantly than you would have. Exactly. So that's why you can't be too opinionated with the tool. So another cool thing is I do like showing screenshots. But I do want to remind people that the idea is not to clone other people's websites necessarily. Right? Like it's just a good demo. It's a simple way to show off what it can do. Exactly. Like take screenshots of your own things. Right? Take screenshots of your artboards.
好的，首先要说明一下，它确实应用了一个CSS滤镜。我要坦白一下，我其实之前不知道CSS的滤镜属性中有一个叫做 Sepia 的功能。实现这个效果有很多方法。你也可以把图片或视频读到一个画布上，然后应用各种算法等等。我喜欢这个工具，它比你手动实现要优雅得多。这就是为什么不能对工具抱有太多偏见的原因之一。还有一个很酷的事情是，我喜欢展示截图。但我要提醒大家，这并不是要克隆别人的网站，对吧？这只是一个很好的演示，简单地展示它能做什么。对，就是要截取你自己作品的截图，比如你的画板。
Take screenshots of things that people both post in Slack and also don't hesitate to add functionality. Incredible. Thank you for doing the demo. I'm just trying to imagine having an engineer I'm working with asking them to do these things and not only just how annoying they would be. Like make it sepia. But just how much time would take from okay do this thing. Copyfortions.com it would be like days weeks. Here it's just months. Check it out here. Months. If ever. Never ships. That's right. Well something that I noticed that I loved at the beginning when you were doing the prompting and that prompt improvement feature is it basically is like best practices to make it look good and look better.
将以下内容翻译成中文，并尽量使其易读：
“截取人们在 Slack 上发布的内容的截图，并且不要犹豫添加功能。太不可思议了。感谢你做的演示。我试着想象让一位合作的工程师做这些事情，不仅仅是因为这有多烦人，比如让它变成棕褐色，而是从下达指令到实际制作会花费多少时间。通常在 copyfortions.com 这样的平台上可能要花费几天甚至几周的时间。在这里，相比之下只需几个月。有时候，可能根本不会推出。没错。还有一件我从一开始就注意到并非常喜欢的事情，就是在你进行提示和改进提示这一功能时，它就像最佳实践一样，让页面看起来更好。”
Which I think is one of the more interesting I don't know. Levers to working with AI is it just has best practices to help you build things that are beautiful and also feels like there's this opportunity of just like helping you figure out if what you're building is at all a good idea. Like what is the problem you're trying to solve? Like it feels like there's a like a PM1 page or step that should exist. Like how do you know this is a problem? What what have users told you? How many people have told you this? Things like that. Yeah. There's something to be said about the fact that over time we're more and more peaking into the mind of the AI that in itself is becoming a killer feature.
我觉得这其中一个更有趣的方面是，我也不太确定。利用AI的一个杠杆就是它拥有最佳实践，帮助你构建美丽的东西。同时，它也提供了一种机会，让你弄清楚你正在构建的东西是不是一个好主意。比如，你要解决的问题是什么？这就像是需要一个产品经理的步骤一样。你怎么知道这是一个问题？用户告诉过你什么？有多少人告诉过你这些？诸如此类的问题。是的，随着时间的推移，我们越来越深入了解AI的思维，这本身正在成为一个非常吸引人的特性。
So the deep seek is stream the thinking tokens moment was a very big moment for industry I think. Because open AI did have the technology. But they decided that for competitive reasons which you know are it's a reasonable thing to think and open intended. They were going to withhold it and also it wasn't clear that there was going to be product and user and product utility. But when deep seek hit it was very obvious that people really liked the idea of understanding how the AI thinks and influencing where it should go. We've got an actually amazing feedback and bug reports where people actually specifically point out look this is where the AI went wrong. Please fix it.
所以，我认为"Deep Seek"这个功能的推出是行业的一个重要时刻。因为OpenAI确实拥有这项技术，但他们基于竞争原因决定暂时不公开，这是可以理解的，他们也不确定这是否能带来产品和用户的实用性。但当"Deep Seek"上线后，很显然人们非常喜欢理解AI思考的概念，并希望影响它的发展方向。我们收到了很多极好的反馈和错误报告，人们甚至会具体指出AI出错的地方，并请求修正。
So the more people we get on this product the more thumbs up thumbs down the more user feedback we get. And by the way I'll tell you like for people out there building products my number one guidance or piece of advice I would give to any sort of founder was create a lot of opportunities for people to give you feedback inside the product. I drew inspiration from Stripe and this was amazing for the early days of our cell. There was a feedback button with a very slick inline form with four emojis that would allow you to decide how you were feeling about the feature the product at that very moment. And that would go straight into Slack. And we were building day in and day out just like streaming user's thoughts right into our consciousness. And maybe we would get I don't know like 10s, hundreds a day, especially in the early days maybe like a couple a day and whatever.
所以，我们希望有更多的人使用这个产品，获得更多的点赞或点踩，以及更多的用户反馈。顺便说一下，对于正在开发产品的人，我给创始人的首要建议就是，在产品中创造更多机会让用户提供反馈。我从 Stripe 得到了启发，这在我们早期阶段非常有用。我们设了一个反馈按钮，配有非常简洁的内嵌表单和四个表情符号，让用户可以即时表达对某个功能或产品的感觉。所有反馈都会直接进入我们的 Slack。我们每天都在不断建设，就像将用户的想法直接传送到我们的意识中。在早期阶段，我们可能一天会收到几十到几百条反馈，有时候可能是每天几条，具体数量视情况而定。
When you're building AI products it's a constant stream of user feedback. So for people that are thinking about not building AI products you know it's it's going to be harder to compete with something that has such a tight feedback loop with users. It's the whole idea is to capture users feedback so the next iteration of the model that prompt the fine tuning the examples the rag is better. And one of the things that a person has done as a result of this insight is with open source a lot of what makes D0 work. So let's say that you wanted to create the D0 for doctors as an example. You can go to versel.com.sash templates and you can clone a chat GPT template that basically follows all of the best practices in the world for like really high performance awesome you eyes.
在开发人工智能产品时，会不断收到用户反馈。因此，对于那些考虑不开发AI产品的人来说，要与具备用户紧密反馈循环的产品竞争将会更困难。整个想法是捕捉用户反馈，以便于模型的下一个版本在提示微调、示例和检索上做得更好。通过这一见解，有人开源了很多让D0有效运作的内容。比如说，如果你想为医生创建一个像D0一样的系统，你可以访问versel.com的模板页面，并克隆一个Chat GPT模板，这个模板遵循全球最佳实践，打造高性能、优秀的用户界面。
And now you can go out and build your own AI products. We've also open sourced the aISDK which is the foundational plumbing of D0. It allows you to connect any model and generate UI from its responses. Not just output text but actually generate UI. So maybe because I love showing stuff I'll just really quickly show you this is a kind of excited about it. So if you go to chat that versel.com AI super quick you're going to see this is the open source chat GPT demo that we've built. It can you can ask questions like old school LLM but also you can ask let's actually finish this. Let's ask what is the weather in San Francisco? We call this Generated UI. It's responding not with just plain text is creating components as a result.
现在，你可以出去开发自己的人工智能产品了。我们也开源了aISDK，这是D0的基础框架。它可以连接任何模型并根据其响应生成用户界面。不仅仅是输出文本，而是实际生成用户界面。也许因为我喜欢展示东西，我会非常快速地给你看看这个，这真让我感到兴奋。如果你访问chat.versel.com AI super quick，你会看到这是我们构建的开源ChatGPT演示。你可以像传统的大语言模型那样提问，但也可以更进一步。比如问“旧金山的天气怎么样？”，这时我们称之为“生成UI”。它不仅仅用普通文本回答，而是创建组件作为回应。
Last but not least and this is a sort of easier style opportunity. Let's ask you to help me write an essay about Silicon Valley. It's going to create a canvas or artifacts style experience. And everything is generative but also users can edit refine etc etc etc. This actually reminds me of something I've been thinking about. There's all these startups that are building vertical AI tools this guy like a little bit of a tangent and there's always this like AI stuff for lawyers AI stuff for doctors nurses and the pitch there is that these are going to be founders that know a lot about the specific problem in this total market and so they'll build like the tools that are very specific to them.
最后但同样重要的是，这是一种相对简单的风格机会。让我请你帮我写一篇关于硅谷的文章。这会创造一种类似于画布或工艺品的体验。所有的一切都是生成式的，但用户也可以进行编辑、完善等等。这实际上让我想起了我一直在思考的一件事。有很多创业公司正在构建垂直AI工具，比如专门为律师、医生、护士量身打造的AI产品，他们的业务推介是，这些创业者非常了解总市场中的特定问题，因此他们能够构建出非常符合这些职业需求的工具。
Yeah I'm absolutely convinced that expert AI tools are the future. There's an amazing product being built on versel called chatprd.com. It's the VZero for writing PRDs and it's going to get a VZero integration soon so you can write your PRD with AI and then you can deploy to create it with AI. That's just an example of like a vertical that you can go after. There's also open evidence. It's like the chatprd for doctors actually. There is an amazing startup building x-ray AI tooling. So the ideas I think are infinite and what I've seen from users of AI at versel like for example our legal team loves this tool called getgc.ai.
是的，我深信专业的人工智能工具是未来的发展方向。有一个很棒的产品正在versel上构建，名为chatprd.com。它是编写PRD（产品需求文档）的VZero工具，并且很快会有VZero的整合功能，这样你就可以用AI编写PRD，然后通过AI部署创建它。这只是一个你可以追求的垂直领域的例子。另外还有开放证据工具，它就像是医生用的chatprd。还有一家出色的初创公司正在开发X光AI工具。所以我认为想法是无限的，在versel的AI用户中，我看到了一些很好的反馈，例如我们的法律团队非常喜欢一个叫getgc.ai的工具。
They could in theory go to chatprd to ask legal questions but someone out there decided I'm going to build the best legal AI tool in the world. It's going to be up to date. I'm going to obsess about this problem. The CEO herself is a lawyer so it's going to be hard to compete with that I think. But here's here's what I'm thinking. This is like almost the opposite and I'm curious to get your take but let's not spend too much time on this because it's a complete tangent. No, no, I love it. So you showed me this the weather widget that you just built. Basically it's like a little mini app that AI built as you're talking to it.
他们理论上可以去chatprd提问法律问题，但有个人决定要创建世界上最好的法律AI工具。这个工具将会保持最新。这个人对这个问题非常执着。而且，这个公司的CEO本人就是律师，我想要与之竞争很困难。不过，我的想法几乎完全相反，我很好奇想听听你的看法，但我们不要在这上面花太多时间，因为这是个完全不同的话题。不，不，我很感兴趣。你给我展示了一个天气小插件，这是一个你和AI对话时它为你构建的迷你应用程序。
Is there a world where when AI when AGI is far enough and approaching super intelligence can it just build you well, hardly for example in real time. Here's the best experience for a lawyer. Here we go. We got it for you. Totally, totally. I believe that eventually yes but humans will always want to have some guardrails. The reality is that get GCE is taking a double job. One is making the best tools for lawyers possible but also putting their you know, weight behind it but it's saying like we've actually used this and we believe that this is this is what the future should look like. There's a sense of direction and opinion about things and I think left to its own devices AI. I don't know this is the this is the double edge sort of like prompt and bellishment like AI doesn't always know exactly what we want or what we need.
在一个世界中，当人工智能（AI）和通用人工智能（AGI）发展到足够先进并接近超级智能的时候，它是否可以实时为你建立理想的体验，比如为律师提供最好的体验呢？我相信最终答案是肯定的，但人类总是会希望设置一些保护措施。现实情况是，GCE 正在承担双重任务，一方面是为律师打造最佳工具，另一方面是为这些工具背书，并表示：“我们实际上使用过这些工具，我们相信未来应该是这样的。”这反映了一种对未来发展的方向和看法。不过，AI 单凭自己的设想可能并不总是知道我们真正想要什么或需要什么。这正是AI的两面性：它可能不完全理解我们的需求。
It's still very much a copilot, a partner and assistant is not really running our lives and I don't know that we even would want that ultimately. Okay, I'm going to go in a whole different direction which is taste. We hear this we're taste all the time. It feels like the thing that people are always suggesting this will continue to be an important skill to know what is good basically to know what people are likely to find valuable and good. And I know I feel clearly you have great taste. You're building incredibly beautiful products. These heroes clearly it's like the most beautiful by default builder out there as we've seen.
这仍然更像一个副驾驶，一个伙伴和助手，并不是我们生活的主管，我不确定我们最终是否真的想要那样。好的，我要换个角度来谈谈品味。我们经常听到关于品味的话题，这似乎是人们总是在建议的一项重要技能，即了解什么是好的，知道什么是人们可能认为有价值和好的。我知道，我清楚地感觉到你有很棒的品味，你正在打造惊艳的产品。这些杰作显然是我们所见过的最漂亮的默认构建者。
So in terms of building taste people are always like how the hell do I do that? I have great taste. I know I do. I don't need to how do you build taste? How do you think that how do you think you build taste and any advice for folks that are trying to improve their taste? Yes, I think it's extremely important to try lots of products. You need to get yourself out there. I think it's very important to go back to that sort of like get into the world, ship things, don't be hesitant of self promotion in a way.
在培养品味方面，人们总是感到困惑，不知道该怎么做。我知道我有很好的品味，我不需要证明。那么，您觉得该如何培养品味呢？有没有什么建议可以给那些想提升自己品味的人呢？我认为尝试各种产品非常重要，你需要多去体验和接触不同的东西。我认为走出去、参与其中、勇于尝试是非常重要的，不要害怕自我推广。
So being very honest with yourself like building something, getting it out there, see how people react, go back to the drawing board. I think it's about exposure at Versailles. We have one of our sort of internal operating principles as increasing exposure hours. Try to quantify how much time you expose yourself to watching how people use your products. Even to watch how people use other products and you'll develop that muscle like taste. Sometimes I think we think of as like this inaccessible thing that oh, that person was born with taste.
诚实面对自己，比如创造一些东西，然后推出去，看看人们的反应，再回到绘图板重新调整。我认为这就像在凡尔赛宫展示作品一样。我们有一个内部原则，就是增加曝光时间。尽量量化你花多少时间观察人们如何使用你的产品。甚至去观察人们如何使用其他产品，随着时间的推移，你会培养出这种像品味一样的能力。有时我们可能认为品味是一种无法企及的东西，好像只有那些与生俱来的人才具备。
I see it as a skill that it can develop. And again, the AI will help you a lot here because we try and capture some of the universal principles of it. But there's also trends in the world, right? Like I'm not a super like couture guy, but like you can see that like every year, like Paris Fashion Week has like a theme to it. And like there is some innovations that have some breakthroughs, whatever. And so trying to stay at a different tier or even trying to define different tier as well is certainly very exciting.
我认为这是一种可以培养的技能。而且，人工智能在这方面会帮你很多，因为我们试图抓住其中的一些普遍原则。但世界上也有一些趋势，对吧？虽然我不是一个非常时尚的人，但你可以看到每年巴黎时装周都有一个主题，并且总会有一些创新带来突破。因此，尝试保持在不同层次，甚至尝试定义不同的层次，确实是非常令人兴奋的。
I love how doable this is increasing your exposure hours. Basically what I'm hearing is use the best apps. Yes, there's like a feedback cycle component to it. Just like show and there's send this nuances, right? So I actually recently created that I published it to my community of Proheon V0. I created a chat GPT style interface inspired by GROC. And I captured a few things that GROC does that are just so smart.
我喜欢这种增加曝光时间的可行性。基本上，我的理解是要使用最好的应用程序。是的，这里面有一个反馈循环的成分。就像展示和发送这些细微差别，对吧？所以，我最近为我的社区发布了一个Proheon V0项目。我创建了一个受GROC启发的ChatGPT风格的界面，并且我捕捉了一些GROC那些非常聪明的特点。
So on mobile web, when you press enter on their input, they default to creating a new line because they know that the way that people are used to submitting things on mobile is not by hitting enter like we would do on a desktop computer. You can tap the little icon and like your message goes out on desktop, they inverted it. When you press enter, you're expected to submit. I think if you got a new line, I think a lot of people would get frustrated that most people don't know that they can press command enter to submit and whatever and it slows everything down.
在移动网页上，当你在输入框按下回车键时，默认情况下会创建新的一行。这是因为大家习惯于在手机上提交内容时，不是通过按回车键，就像在桌面电脑上一样。在移动设备上，你可以点击一个小图标来发送消息。而在桌面设备上，这个操作被反过来了。当你按下回车键时，系统期望你提交信息。如果只是换行，很多人可能会感到困惑，因为大多数人不知道可以按 Command+Enter 来提交，这样也会让整个过程变慢。
You can basically prompt for those things, right? But you have to pay attention to the details and you have to decide what you want to see in the world. Sometimes that means either defining best practices or seeking the best practices and learning from others. Another aspect of exposure hours is that you tend to overrate how well your products work. It's very important to give your product to another person and watch them interact with it.
基本上，你可以为那些事情设定提示，对吧？但你必须关注细节，并决定你希望在世界上看到什么。有时候，这意味着要定义最佳实践，或者寻找并向他人学习最佳实践。另一个与曝光时长相关的方面是，你可能会高估自己产品的效果。因此，重要的是将你的产品交给其他人，并观察他们如何与之互动。
Expose yourself to the pain of reality. And the more you search yourself in the real deal, nitty-gritty of what happens when people use your interfaces and what not, I think you'll come out stronger, more grounded, hopefully more humbled. We don't like pain though. This is a push. Create some more pain in your life. Show people the things you're building. Do you have a QRistic or a number of how many exposure hours per week per month you want your team to have or is it just more as always better?
让自己体验现实的痛苦。更多地了解人们使用你的界面时所发生的实际情况，从细微之处深入考察，我认为这会让你变得更强大、更踏实，希望也更谦逊。尽管我们不喜欢痛苦，这是一种推动力。给你的生活中增加一些挑战。向人们展示你正在建设的东西。你是否有一个目标，比如每周或每月希望你的团队接触多少小时，或者只是觉得越多越好呢？
Yeah, more is always better. I mean, because a inertia is to get inside your head and the inertia is to think everything and assume that everything is going good and there are no errors. Of course, it's fast. It worked on my machine. It's always a push for more. I do sometimes little things. I ask my team to color my calendar. I have to have a certain amount of one-on-ones with my team, in a represent of my calendar. Kind of like meetings so that I can sync with people and see how the company is doing. Then I want to have customer meetings. During those customer meetings, I push myself to use the products. In fact, with our enterprise customers, something that I do is I try to forget how things are built, what feature of next year's or virtually using, whatever. I just frequently use their products. I want the product to be great. That's all. Then I try to work backwards. A form of exposure hours for me is seeing what kind of success our customers are having in the real world. Again, it's just eheuristic.
是的，多总比少好。我是说，因为惯性会让你陷入自己的思维里，让你觉得一切都很好，没有错误。当然，速度很快。在我的电脑上运行正常。我总是追求更多。我有时候会做一些小事情，比如让我团队给我的日程表加上颜色。我需要在日程表中安排好多个一对一会议来与团队成员同步，看看公司运作得怎么样。我也想安排客户会议。在那些客户会议中，我会逼自己去使用产品。事实上，对于我们的企业客户，我会尝试忘记产品是怎么构建的，或者明年会有什么新特性，而是不断使用他们的产品。我希望产品能够非常出色。仅此而已。然后，我尝试逆向思考。对我来说，一种接触实践的方式就是看我们客户在真实世界中取得了怎样的成功。这只是一个经验法则。
Maybe one-third of my meetings this week were customer meetings. I try and watch them do. Another really quick one is we invite people frequently to demo how they use their product at live. Sometimes through the executive team, sometimes through the whole company. We always inevitably discover something interesting from the customer about maybe there is something that they're in pain about that we didn't know about or maybe something was not as intuitive as we thought. I find with these sorts of things, when you do them, when you talk to customers, you have them show how they use the product. You always like, why have I not done this off more often? Why am I? What am I thinking? It's just so mind blowing usually. I want to talk about limitations of VZR at this point. What should people know about what VZR can do? If you have an existing codebase, can you plug it in and start doing stuff? What else should people know?
这周我大约三分之一的会议都是客户会议。我尽量观察他们的操作。另一个非常快速的方法是，我们经常邀请客户现场演示他们如何使用产品。有时候是通过管理团队，有时候是全公司参与。我们总能从客户那里发现一些有趣的东西，比如一些我们不知道的问题，或者某些功能并不像我们想象的那么直观。我发现每当我们这样做，当我们与客户交流时，让他们展示如何使用产品的时候，总会有一种惊讶的感觉，为什么我没有更频繁地这样做？我在想什么呢？这些经历常常让人觉得大开眼界。我想谈一下VZR的局限性。人们应该了解VZR能做什么？如果你有现有的代码库，能否直接接入并开始使用？还有什么其他信息是人们应该了解的吗？
It's not going to do this yet. You can import codebase through zip files and get it's coming very soon. It can do full-sac development, it can connect to APIs. In the next couple days, maybe before this podcast is out, we'll have this very tight integrations so that if you need a database or if you need an AI model or if the AI decides, it needs that. It'll just seamlessly install it from the VZR marketplace. The VZR market base has already curated some of the best infrastructure products in the world to store data, to search data, etc. It's going to make the product even more powerful. I'll say, again, I kind of did that exercise. I do that exercise every day of like, I have a wild idea and try to see if it can come to life. It's very powerful so far.
目前还无法做到这一点。您可以通过ZIP文件导入代码库，这个功能很快就会推出。它可以进行全堆栈开发，并能够连接到API。在接下来的几天内，可能在这个播客发布之前，我们将实现非常紧密的集成。如果您需要数据库或者AI模型，或者AI决定需要这些东西，它可以直接从VZR市场无缝安装。VZR市场已经精选了一些世界上最好的基础设施产品，用于存储和搜索数据等。这将使产品更加强大。我再说一次，我每天都会进行这样的练习：有一个疯狂的想法，然后试图看看能否实现。到目前为止，它的功能非常强大。
AI's are still very much a work in progress. They can make mistakes. We have it as a little disclaimer underneath the input. You will find errors, our fitness function and we've seen such a stronger relation between user love and retention. These are actually their retentive products compared to other AI products that I've built in the past or little demos that we've done or whatever. People subscribe and use it every single day and are very sort of like, if they notice a bug, they're like very, very like, generally about it because they're depending on a day in and day out. But I'll say, errors are so possible, right? Like, every once in a while, you might get a runtime error or whatever. But a lot of the technology that we've added is so that V0 is very agentic. It has a lot of agency in Hado act.
人工智能仍然在持续发展中。它们可能会犯错。在输入框下面，我们有一个小免责声明。你会发现错误，不仅是我们的健身函数，还有用户的喜爱和留存率之间的关系更密切。与我过去开发的其他人工智能产品或小演示相比，这些实际上是用户保留更多的产品。人们每天订阅和使用它，如果发现了一个bug，他们通常会非常包容，因为他们每天依赖它。当然，我得说，错误是有可能发生的，比如偶尔你可能会遇到运行时错误等。但我们添加的许多技术使得这个初版具有很强的自主性，能很好地执行任务。
So you're going to see very frequently that if it runs into errors, these are the crises solve them itself. And then last, I will say, when products get really big, AI today is just not as good at dealing with massive code bases. But going back to that idea of the React component, because we break down things into files and components, we tend to do quite well in that dimension. In fact, one thing that NextShas was sort of known for is that in order to sort of project, you just create a file and NextShas were route to that page. If anyone is familiar with PHP, it's kind of like how PHP worked. And so it's so good that LLAMs are good at working with files now, because it fits very naturally into our world. And if you can scope down, when things get really big, if you can give it a smaller task to work on a specific component or a specific file, you decrease that likelihood of the LLM not being able to reason over or very, very, very long context windows.
所以你会很常看到，如果遇到错误，这些危机会自行解决。最后，我要说的是，当产品规模变得非常大时，现今的人工智能不太擅长处理庞大的代码库。但回到React组件的观点，因为我们把东西分解成文件和组件，所以在这个方面我们做得相当不错。事实上，NextShas的一个特点是，你只需创建一个文件，NextShas就能将其映射到相应的页面。如果有人对PHP很熟悉，这就像PHP的工作方式。因此，LLAMs（大语言模型）在处理文件时表现得很好，因为这很自然地融入了我们的世界。当事情变得非常复杂时，如果你能将任务缩小，比如让它专注于某个特定的组件或文件，你就降低了LLM无法处理或理解超长上下文的可能性。
I want to go back to design. We talked about how VZera is really good at just great design by default. It's a kind of lean into that more if someone wants to improve the design of their product. You know, most people are not designers. They don't really know how to make it look good. They don't know what to ask for. They just tips and breast practices for making their app even better. Look at you nicer. Yeah, it was really interesting. At the other day, I met with a CIO who of a large bank who on the side does a lot of coding or like tries out new technologies and whatnot. And I showed him VZera and he immediately became a VZero addict. And he texted me every day with feedback. He moved two websites of his own from another like sort of website builder type provider to VZero and Versel, deploy them, give them a domain name, their live in production.
我想回到设计方面。我们之前谈到过，VZera的默认设计就非常出色。如果有人想改善产品设计，可以多借鉴VZera的方式。你知道，大多数人都不是设计师，他们不知道该如何让设计看起来更好，也不知道该提出什么要求。他们只需要一些提示和最佳实践，以使他们的应用程序更出色，看起来更美观。有一天，我遇到了一位大型银行的首席信息官，他业余时间做很多编程或尝试新技术。我向他展示了VZera，他立刻被它吸引，每天都给我发反馈。他把他自己的两个网站从其他某种网站构建工具转移到了VZera和Versel，并为其分配了域名，它们现在已经上线运行了。
And then he said, look, I have this challenge. I have this music festival that I organize with a couple of friends. And this is what the designer gave us. And he had this kind of like brochure. It looked very much like a print style design. And so he gave that to VZero and the first result he was kind of like digging me for. He's like, look, this isn't look good. And then because I have experience with the tool, I said like, what are you just giving the feedback? Like little age, you know, you were asking yesterday, like earlier, some of the things that I've learned with the product in now or the best practice, what would I recommend if I were sitting next to someone? Not only you should not hesitate to give the AI feedback, it's so interesting, dude.
然后他说，你看，我遇到这样一个挑战。我和几个朋友一起组织了一个音乐节。这是设计师给我们的设计。他拿出了一种类似于宣传册的东西，看起来非常像印刷风格的设计。他把它交给了VZero，我看了看第一版结果，他有点像是在挖苦我，说，这看上去不怎么样。由于我对这个工具比较有经验，我就说，为什么不直接给它反馈呢？就像件小事，你昨天问过的一些事情，比如我从这个产品中学到的一些最佳实践，如果我是坐在某人旁边，我会推荐什么？你不应该犹豫去给AI反馈，这真的是非常有趣的事情，伙计。
Like sometimes people will press a feedback button to tell us what they wanted VZero to do. And literally all we had to do in many cases is, it just can you just tell VZero that? And so he sent me this message saying like, yeah, I just don't like the design. And I give him back a prompt that I would have given. I said, like, I don't know what I said is specifically better. Make it more jazzy. Make it more, make it pop. Make it. And so trying and again, it goes back to like, try to draw inspiration from variety that the AI already knows about. So in a couple of problems, we ended up something that was in his mind better than the original print design of that brochure that concert lineup.
有时候，人们会按下反馈按钮，告诉我们他们希望 VZero 做些什么。而实际上，很多情况下，我们只需要让他们直接告诉 VZero 这些需求即可。比如，有个人发信息给我说，他不喜欢设计。我给他回了一个提示语，我会这样回他：“我不知道具体哪里更好。让它更有活力一些，让它更醒目，让它更出彩。”这就像是在尝试并不断回到从 AI 已知的信息中汲取灵感一样。通过在一些问题上的尝试，最终我们得到了一个他认为比原来的乐队节目单设计更好的结果。
At that time, again, I'm even learning about what VZero is capable of and the best way to use it. But with design, I think unleashing its creativity and seeing things and playing with it is definitely super helpful. So one thing I'm hearing here is just tell it, make this look better. Make it pop. Make it pop. You can't totally. But and if you can use tokens that are relevant, so neo-brutalist, minimalist, newspaper like vintage, make it look like a telegram. You can sort of like try and reach for things that you maybe would not naturally come to mind and you will be surprised about how well I can transfer those ideas into reality. Incredible.
在那个时候，我还在学习VZero的功能以及最佳使用方法。不过在设计方面，我认为释放它的创意，观察和应用它绝对是非常有帮助的。所以我听到的一个建议就是，可以告诉它，让这个设计更好看、更引人注目。你可以做到这一点。而且如果你能使用一些相关的设计风格，比如新野蛮主义、极简主义、复古报纸风或者让它看起来像电报一样，你可以尝试一些也许不太自然会想到的风格，然后你会惊讶于VZero如何能够将那些想法出色地转化为现实。简直不可思议。
It's too easy. Maybe to close that conversation, we'll see where this topic goes. I have this tweet that I loved that I super resonate with. The secrets of product quality is blood, sweat, and tears. I completely agree. I think that's why I think my newsletter has been successful. I spend so much time on every newsletter post more than I think anyone spends on these other posts like 10, 20, 30 hours. That's why I think it works. Is there anything more behind that tweet? Anything you've learned just the importance of working hard? I guess. That's a great, great stuff. Yeah. I mentioned I suppose you're always a good example of like, Loki can be painful.
这太简单了。也许可以在这里结束这场对话，看看这个话题会如何发展。我有一条我非常喜欢的推文，非常有感触。产品质量的秘密在于付出汗水和努力。我完全同意。我认为这就是我的电子报成功的原因。我在每篇电子报上花费的时间远超过其他人，可能是10、20、30个小时。我认为这就是它有效的原因。你从这条推文中学到了什么吗？关于努力工作的重要性？好吧，那确实是很有价值的东西。我提到过，虽然有时候会觉得很累，但你一直是个很好的例子。
It can be painful to see your baby break in front of everyone and noticing all the other thing is that a great product is made up of a thousand little details. And so you're never really done. There's a humility that comes from the process also of why the best product builders will say nine knows for every yes. Because when you say yes, it's like adopting a puppy. A feature is like adopting a puppy. It grows into a beast that you have to take care of and it's very demanding and loving. But also, it's a lot and poops everywhere. So you have to have a creative restraints. While you also have to have a give, you have to withhold sometimes with the respect of the real world complexity that emerges.
看到你的“孩子”在众人面前崩溃确实是件痛苦的事。同时，我们也认识到，一个伟大的产品是由无数小细节构成的，因此你永远没有真正完成的时候。在这个过程中，我们能感受到一种谦逊，这也是为什么最优秀的产品设计者会在每一个“是”之前拒绝九个“不”。因为当你说“是”的时候，就像收养了一只小狗一样。一项功能就像是一只小狗，会成长为一个需要你照顾的“大家伙”，这很有需求性和亲和力，但同时也带来了很多麻烦，还会到处“捣乱”。所以，你必须保持创造性的约束。同时，有时候也需要退一步，以尊重现实中出现的复杂情况。
A little thing that I kind of obsess about, I'll give Kudos to the mid-journey team. I really love how mid-journey works in mobile web. I don't know if they have an app yet, like a native app, but like the mobile web site is phenomenal. And to get it to be that good, by the way, it's possible. It's actually possible to get make great things on mobile web. But it needs that sense of love and restraint and obsession and testing a lot and using your own products a lot. Dark food is a great mechanism, obviously. So we use the heck out of Versaille NV-0 to make Versaille NV-0. And hopefully that helps us do better. But there is a lot of blood, so it enters the process. Yeah, you can tell how much you use the product. It comes through and everything you say.
我有点痴迷于一些小事，在这里我要称赞一下中途团队。我非常喜欢中途在手机网页上的表现。我不知道他们是否有自己的应用程序，比如原生应用，但他们的手机网站真是太棒了。要做到如此出色，其实是完全有可能的。不过，这需要足够的热爱、克制、专注以及大量的测试和使用自己的产品。内部使用就是一个很好的机制。我们充分利用Versaille NV-0来改进它，并希望这能帮助我们做得更好。当然，这个过程中有很多辛苦付出。你可以从他们的谈话中感受到他们对产品的使用频繁，这一切都表现在他们所说的话里。
Let me actually ask about this. You talked about how you said you have 600 engineers? No, 600 people total. 600 people total. How was AI changing the way they work? Is there anything there? Because I feel like you guys are at the cutting edge of how products are built. What's happening? Is it just everyone's on Versaille NV-0 to build stuff? Yeah. Yes, but actually it's more profound. I think it's the everybody can ship. It's the we build with AI principles in mind. I actually give a shout out to the Luma Labs engineer who said, well, I'll use AI for everything.
让我来问一下这个问题。你提到过公司有600名工程师？不对，总共是600人。总共是600人。人工智能如何改变他们的工作方式？有没有什么特别的地方？因为我觉得你们在产品开发方面处于前沿地位。现在发生了什么变化？是否每个人都在使用Versaille NV-0来开发东西？是的，但其实这更深远。我认为现在是每个人都可以参与发布。我们在开发时考虑到了AI的原则。我还要特别感谢Luma Labs的一位工程师，他表示自己会在所有方面使用AI。
I'll use AI also to generate the images for the website. I'm seeing, for example, our designers that are working on our next conference generate all of the animations with video models. I'm looking at our marketing team, our creating demos of how the infrastructure works with V0 that are better than any static diagram or landing page that I've ever seen. One of my most viral zits or ex-posts is something that one of our designers created, which explains how our computer infrastructure works with an interactive demo. Until he created that, by the way, he designed it and created it and we shipped it all in the tool.
我将使用AI来生成网站的图像。例如，我看到我们负责下次会议的设计师们利用视频模型创建了所有的动画。我看到我们的市场团队使用V0制作基础设施工作原理的演示，比我见过的任何静态图表或登录页都要好。我最受欢迎的内容之一是我们的一位设计师制作的，它通过一个互动演示解释了我们的计算机基础设施的工作原理。值得一提的是，他从设计到创建都是用这个工具完成的，然后我们就发布了。
First of all, it wasn't part of his day-to-day job to do that. He, these years making you such a powerful generalist that you can step out of your conference zone of like, well, my job was to do only this. You just create. We have a ritual every Friday we had at this morning called Demo Fridays. It's very important to create the space for people to step out of that conference zone and use AI. So us giving permission to be able to build and ship things is part of that cultural backdrop that makes this thing possible. We had a demo today as part of Demo Friday of our VP of Sales Engineering, also creating an amazing tool that he's going to use to help prospects understand V0 with V0.
首先，这并不是他日常工作的一部分。这些年来，你已经成长为一个强大的多面手，能走出自己的舒适区，而不仅限于自己的工作职能。我们有一个每周五早上的惯例，叫做“Demo Fridays”，这是一个非常重要的活动，旨在为人们创造走出舒适区并使用人工智能的空间。因此，我们允许员工创建和发布产品，这也是我们文化背景的一部分，使这些事情成为可能。在今天的Demo Friday上，我们的销售工程副总裁展示了一个了不起的工具，这个工具将帮助潜在客户更好地理解V0产品。
So I've heard from DevOps and infrastructure engineers how much they use tools like cursor to work on the low levels of the versatile infrastructure. So I think very quickly we're seeing AI being embedded everywhere. I just heard a product request from a customer and said, I was saying, okay, V0, you sell domain names. Let me come up with new domain ideas with AI. So I just see a future where AI becomes synonymous with software. I do look forward to it because we need to stop talking about AI at some point. It's probably not going to happen, but it is useful to remind people that AI equals software now. And we are a software company. We build software and we use software to build software.
我听DevOps和基础设施工程师说，他们经常使用像Cursor这样的工具来处理多功能基础设施的底层部分。因此，我认为我们很快就会看到人工智能被嵌入到各个领域。我刚听到一个客户的产品请求，他说，“你们公司卖域名。让我用人工智能来构思新的域名。”所以我可以预见一个未来，人工智能将与软件密不可分。我对此很期待，因为我们需要在某个时候停止谈论“人工智能”。虽然这可能不会很快实现，但提醒人们“人工智能就是软件”还是有用的。我们是一家软件公司，我们开发软件，也用软件来开发更多的软件。
So, NAI is just a part of that. Yeah. Guillermo, what a beautiful way to end it. Is there anything else you wanted to mention? Anything else that you want to leave listeners with before I let you go? I'll leave you with my vision of the future, which is we have this billboard in San Francisco, which is everybody can cook. It's also part of the Rata 2E film, one of my favorite movies. I look forward to a future where everybody can get their ideas out there. If you can dream it, you can ship it. And also that when you use products and when you see the creations of other people and the things that they put out into the world that we are collectively making the world better.
所以，NAI只是其中的一部分。是的，Guillermo，这真是个完美的结尾方式。还有什么你想提到的吗？在我放你走之前，你想留给听众什么信息吗？我想留下我对未来的愿景，那就是我们在旧金山有一个广告牌，上面写着“人人都能做饭”，它也是我最喜欢的电影之一《美食总动员》的一部分。我期待一个未来，每个人都能将自己的想法展现出来。只要你能梦想，就能实现。同时，当你使用产品、看到别人的创作和他们展示给世界的东西时，我们集体在让世界变得更好。
So, anything you experience hopefully gets faster, higher quality, fewer bugs as we go along. And I think we're all contributing to that. And I look forward to that and look forward to everyone's feedback on how Versel can play a part in that future. So, to build on that, we're can folks find you online, we're going to, they should go to Versel.com is it VZero.com. Yeah, and go to VZero.dev to get started. I did mention that if you want to build your own VZero, this is more advanced, but check out our templates on Versel.com and such templates. And also I'm Brouch G on X.
所以，希望您所经历的一切将随着我们的发展变得更快、更高质量，并且减少漏洞。我认为我们都在为此做出贡献。我期待着这个过程，也期待大家对Versel如何在这个未来中发挥作用的反馈。 为了继续这个话题，大家可以在线上找到我们吗？他们应该访问Versel.com还是VZero.com？是的，可以访问VZero.dev开始使用。我提到过，如果您想创建自己的VZero，这会更高级一些，但可以查看我们在Versel.com上的模板。此外，我在X平台上的用户名是Brouch G。
So, you can DM me or tweet at me at any time. Amazing. Garema, thank you so much for being here. Thank you Lanny, it was so fun. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening.
因此，你可以随时给我发私信或在推特上@我。太棒了。Garema，非常感谢你来到这里。谢谢你，Lanny，这是一次很有趣的交流。再见，大家。非常感谢你们的收听。
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您可以在 Lenny'spodcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于这个节目的信息。期待在下一集与您见面。