20 Questions: William Deresiewicz on Excellent Sheep | Mahindra Humanities Center
发布时间 2014-09-25 18:34:37 来源
Good evening. I'm Homi Baba, Director of the Mahendra Humanities Center. And it gives me great pleasure to see so many of you excellent sheep at our opening event of the new academic year. One event does not a season make and I want to thank you all for the remarkable support you have given our events over the past several years. There is hardly an event we've had which has not had a large stimulating audience and as I never tired to say thank you for being here without you there would be no programming.
晚上好。我是霍米·巴巴，马亨德拉人文中心的主任。很高兴在我们新学年的开幕活动上看到这么多优秀的“绵羊”。一次活动并不代表一个季节，我要感谢你们在过去几年里对我们活动的支持。几乎每次活动都能吸引一大批热情的听众。没有你们的到来，就没有这些活动，所以我由衷地感谢大家在这里。
It would be quite out of keeping with this evening's event where I to give our guest William Dershowitz an anodine objective introduction. Rumors that Mr that William Dershowitz is an Ajung Prabhakatar are highly exaggerated. My own undergraduate education Bombay University in Oxford taught me that there is no argument about the fate of the university its soullessness or its soulfulness that is not made by teachers in the name of the kids just as all politicians attribute their aims and ambitions to the demands of the people.
这与今晚的活动氛围很不一致，如果我只是给我们的嘉宾威廉·德肖维茨一个平淡无奇的客观介绍。关于威廉·德肖维茨是"Ajung Prabhakatar"的传闻被极大地夸大了。我的本科教育是在孟买大学和牛津大学完成的，这让我明白，对于大学的命运——无论是失去灵魂还是充满灵魂的争论——都是教师以孩子们的名义提出的，就像所有的政治家都把他们的目标和野心归结为人民的需求。
Once you accept that excellent sheep belongs to a long standing much read and debated genre the charges of Mueh Foy or the piling on of ad hominem arguments that the book has provoked along with glowing reviews should be seen as a distraction from some of the pressing issues I hope we will confront this evening. The provocative tone in temper of excellent sheep do not in the main come from prejudice or peak. Their eyes from Dershowitz's prominent commitment to a subjective perspective in the areas of pedagogy and epistemology aesthetics and ethics.
一旦你接受了《优秀的绵羊》属于一个长期存在且经常被阅读和讨论的文学类型，你就会发现那些关于穆赫福伊的指控或者对书籍挑刺的人身攻击，以及随之而来的赞赏评论，都是对我们希望今晚能讨论的一些紧迫问题的干扰。《优秀的绵羊》挑衅性的语气主要不是因为偏见或愤怒，而是源于德肖维茨在教学法、认识论、美学和伦理学领域中对主观视角的显著关注。
Subjectivism should not always be confused with solipsism. Indeed in my reading of the book Self-reflection, soulmaking and above all the nurturing of the moral imagination are the values of education that Dershowitz considers have been bled out of the beleaguered ivies. Faculty shy away from the mentorial role associated with the development of the moral imagination while applicants to the ivies sacrifice their individuality and particularity in order to conform to a cookie cutter ideal of institutional excellence.
主观主义不应总是与唯我论混为一谈。在我阅读这本书《自我反思》时，我发现德肖维茨认为，这些名校中，尤其是自我反思、灵魂塑造和道德想象力的培养等教育价值被逐渐消耗殆尽。教师们对培养道德想象力的导师角色有所避忌，而申请这些名校的学生为了迎合一种千篇一律的卓越标准，往往牺牲了自己的个性和独特性。
William Dershowitz has certainly stirred a hornet's nest in focusing on the admissions process and the equity of access to a careful and thorough education. But how far can one go in the pursuit of subjectivity and soulmaking in the academy? However well-intentioned. Dershowitz distinguishes between the scientific method of calculation and the humanistic approach of interpretation. He writes, when we engage in humanistic inquiry, when we think about a perm or a sculpture or a piece of music, we ask not how big is it or how hot is it or what does it consist of but what does it mean?
威廉·德肖维茨（William Dershowitz）确实引起了很大的关注，因为他聚焦于入学过程以及公平获得细致和全面教育的问题。但是，在追求主观性和心灵塑造方面，学术界究竟可以走多远呢？即便他的出发点是好的。德肖维茨区分了科学的计算方法和人文学科的解释方法。他写道，当我们进行人文学科研究时，比如思考一款发型、一座雕塑或一首音乐作品，我们问的不是它有多大、多热或由什么构成，而是它意味着什么？
We ask of a scientific proposition. Is it true? But a proposition in the humanities we ask is it true for me? Now I suppose it all depends on who the we is and whether the me is part of a larger dialogical conversation with what is true for me is also part of a deeper form of interpretation of ideals, norms, judgments and choices that is true for my neighbor, that is true for those with whom I live and those who live beyond my territories and boundaries.
我们对于一个科学命题会问：这是真的吗？但对于人文学科的命题，我们会问：这对我来说是真的吗？我想这就取决于这个“我们”是谁，以及这个“我”是否参与到更大的对话中，即“对我来说的真理”是否也是对理想、规范、判断和选择的更深层次诠释的一部分。这些真理也同样适用于我的邻居，适用于与我生活在一起的人，以及那些生活在我界限之外的人。
Don't we humanists discuss largeness or smallness when we talk of sculptural scale and its complexities and do we not relate the meaning of personal truth to the scale and convention of literary forms and musical genres? Isn't the intensity of the lyric or the expansiveness of the epic crucially dependent on the mediation of context, meaning, truth, feeling and form as they come to be realized through technique?
我们人文学者在讨论雕塑的规模及其复杂性时，难道不也会谈论大与小的问题吗？我们在讨论个人内心的真实时，是否也将其与文学形式和音乐流派的规模和惯例联系起来？抒情诗的深度或者史诗的广度，是否在很大程度上取决于语境、意义、真理、情感和形式的中介，这些因素通过技法得以实现？
What worries me about such polarized arguments between the sciences and the humanities is the willed ignorance they create about productive connections and fruitful collaborations. In the public debates around excellent sheep, I was distressed to read the disciplinary caricatures indulged in my many commentators both within and outside the academy. In one such caricature, an amiable colleague throws a cordon sanitaire around his own discipline, casts the social sciences to the winds and enters into an unproductive turf battle.
我对科学和人文学科之间的两极化争论感到担忧，因为它们故意忽视了两者之间的有效联系和有益的合作。在关于“杰出绵羊”的公共辩论中，我对许多评论者，包括学术界内外的人，喜欢进行的学科刻板印象感到不安。其中一个例子是，一位和蔼的同事对自己的学科设定了一道“隔离线”，完全抛弃社会科学，并陷入毫无益处的地盘之争。
He takes humanists to task and I quote for their social conscience, manifest him mostly in normative political posturing that is divisive and chilling to discourse on the campus and of no great civic, educational or maturational value to students. With friends like these, who needs enemies? Overcoming this willed ignorance is never an easy task but it is an essential one.
他批评人文学者，我引用他的说法：他们的社会良知主要表现为规范性的政治姿态，这种姿态在校园内是具有分裂性和令人寒心的，对学生的公民意识、教育或成熟度没有多大价值。有这样的朋友，谁还需要敌人呢？克服这种有意的无知从来都不是一件易事，但却是必不可少的。
The Mahindra Humanities Centre is a crossroads of the campus that links humanities disciplines and their resonant relevance to medicine, the law, science and social sciences. Big data is as big a problem of complexity and scale for us humanists as the interpretation of subjective choice and judgment is a problem for my colleagues who teach statistical methods and that, that difficult challenge is why we have chosen to work and teach together to provide in our students with as wide a range of truth telling and self-enhancing and soul formation in the forms of knowledge as we can honestly impart to their expanding minds and their enlarging spirits.
马欣德拉人文中心是校园的交汇点，将人文学科与医学、法律、科学和社会科学的重要关联联系在一起。对于我们这些人文学者来说，大数据就像对教授统计方法的同事而言，解释主观选择和判断是一个复杂和规模庞大的问题。正是因为这种艰难的挑战，我们决定共同工作和教学，以便为我们的学生提供尽可能广泛的真相揭示、自我提升以及灵魂塑造的知识形式，以我们的能力真实地传授给他们不断扩展的思想和不断成长的心灵。
A few words about this evening's procedure. Bill Deshowitz will lead off by speaking about his book for around 20 minutes. Then each of our panelists will ask one brief provocative question, free of any extended preambles. I'm afraid these are the rules of the game and if they themselves depart from them as they say in cooking shows these days, you will be chopped. After Bill responds and the panelists follow, we'll open it up for your brief questions, also free of preambles. Be provocative, be dramatic. Mr. Deshowitz has shown us the way. William Deshowitz is a contributing editor for the nation and contributing editor for the New Republic and the American scholar. He taught English at Yale until 2008. He is the author of a Jane Austin education. House six novels taught me about love friendship and the things that really matter and excellent sheep, the miseducation of the American elite. Please join me in welcoming William Deshowitz.
关于今晚活动流程的几点说明。比尔·德肖维茨将首先发言，大约20分钟，内容是关于他的新书。接着，我们的几位嘉宾将每人提出一个简短且富有挑衅性的问题，无需冗长的开场白。抱歉，这是活动的规则，就像现在的烹饪节目所说，如果有人违反规则，将被淘汰。在比尔回答完问题、嘉宾回应之后，我们将开放给大家提问，请注意问题要简短，不要有前导语。请大胆提问，富有戏剧性。德肖维茨先生已经为我们做出了榜样。威廉·德肖维茨是《国家》和《新共和国》杂志的特约编辑，以及《美国学者》的特约编辑。他曾在耶鲁大学教授英语，直到2008年。他著有《简·奥斯丁的教育：六部小说教会我爱、友谊和重要的事物》和《优秀的傻瓜：美国精英教育的误区》。请和我一起欢迎威廉·德肖维茨。
Which would you prefer? No, I'm fine here. Thanks for coming. It's hardening to see that there are a lot of grown-ups in the audience and grown-ups either side of me. I don't want you to think that I'm going to try to disarm hostility with flattery and believe me it causes me great pain to say anything positive about Harvard. But the presence here of a number of people who have the word Dean in their title and other senior members of the institution is unique among the events that I've been doing and will do. I think it speaks very well for Harvard and it also says something that's consistent with the history of the institution which is that Harvard has often been in the forefront of reform and higher education whether it was I can never get his name in the right order, Elliot. Charles Elliot? Charles Norton Elliot or Elliot Norton. I remember. Or James Cohnant in the 30s.
你更喜欢哪个？不，我在这里很好。感谢您的光临。看到观众中有很多成年人，还有我身边都是成年人，这让我心里感到安慰。我不想让你们觉得我会用奉承来化解敌意，而且相信我，要说哈佛的好话对我来说绝非易事。但这里有许多拥有“院长”头衔的人和其他学院的高级成员到场，这在我过去和将来参加的活动中都是独一无二的。我认为这为哈佛赢得了很好的声誉，同时也体现了哈佛一贯以来的传统：哈佛常常在改革和高等教育中走在前列，比如我总记不住他名字顺序的埃利奥特——是查尔斯·埃利奥特？查尔斯·诺顿·埃利奥特？或者是詹姆斯·科南特在30年代的贡献。
I hope that Harvard can continue or perhaps resume that role of courageous innovation, not just within the realms of scholarship but within the in terms of the structure and and social function of higher education that it used to play that other institutions have from time to time played and that I don't see a lot of prestigious institutions at least today really taking up but we can debate that later. But again as I say I think the people here and the people there are a good sign that you're taking not necessarily that you're taking me seriously. I'm not always sure from day to day whether I take myself seriously but that you're taking these issues seriously.
我希望哈佛大学能够继续，或者重新担负起那个勇敢创新的角色，这不仅限于学术领域，而是扩展到高等教育的结构和社会功能方面。以往它在这些方面发挥了重要作用，其他一些机构也时有作为，但在今天的许多知名机构中，我没有看到太多这样的担当。当然，我们可以对此进行后续讨论。正如我所说，我认为在座的各位以及那里的人都是个好兆头，表明大家认真对待这些问题，尽管不一定是因为我，也许我自己都不总是确定是否该认真对待自己，不过看到你们对这些问题的重视让我感到欣慰。
So just briefly many of you may know this already. I'm going to assume that you've all listened. I'm going to assume that you all are familiar with the critical part of my argument if only from the recent New Republic excerpt but I want to say just a little bit about the larger argument and the genesis of the argument. Some of you may know that six years ago I published a piece called the Disadvantages of an Elite Education that made actually a lot of the same points that I that I also made it in the New Republic excerpt. I was on my way out of academia on the way out of Yale. It appeared in the American scholar not a lot of people read the American scholar. I wasn't really familiar with what the internet can do even to a piece that's published in an obscure place and to my great surprise almost immediately there was a giant echo back to me from the world.
所以简单地说，可能很多人已经知道这一点。我假设你们都听过，我假设你们都熟悉我论点中关键的部分，即便只是从最近《新共和国》的节选中了解到的，不过我想稍微谈一下这个更大论点及其起源。你们当中有些人可能知道，六年前我发表了一篇名为《精英教育的弊端》的文章，其中实际上提出了很多与我在《新共和国》节选中相同的观点。当时，我正要离开学术界，离开耶鲁大学。这篇文章发表在《美国学者》上，阅读《美国学者》的人并不多。我对互联网的威力也不太了解，即使是一篇在不知名地方发表的文章，也可能掀起巨大的反响，令我非常惊讶的是，几乎立刻我就从世界各地得到了巨大的回应。
Almost all of it judging from the emails that I started to get from students at selective schools and they started to write to me they started to write about they started to write to each other and they also started to invite me to speak to them and the first ones to do so were the then student committee of the Harvard Humanity Center. So the first talk I gave was about six years ago and there have been a lot of them since then and the talks I mean there were a lot of interesting things about them and they've taught me a lot and there's a lot there's a lot that I know now that I didn't know then about what I was talking about.
几乎所有的一切都可以从我开始收到来自精英学校学生的电子邮件中看出。这些学生开始给我写信，互相交流，并邀请我去给他们演讲。最先邀请我的是当时哈佛人文学中心的学生委员会。第一次演讲是在大约六年前，从那以后我进行过很多次演讲。这些演讲让我学到了很多东西，并且让我对原本不了解的话题有了新的认识。
But the most important thing that has happened starting that night I think definitely starting that night is that people started to ask me questions and many of the questions took the form essentially of what do we do about this? What do I do about it? What do schools do about it? What does society do about it? So I saw that I started to need to well I needed to answer them I needed to develop a yes to go along with the no the no to all the things that I was saying no to and that's really what this book is and if you only know the new republic excerpt or the thing from six years ago the subtitle I believe me you the title and subtitle are long enough and I'm not surprised that you didn't get all the way to the end but actually the subtitle is the miseducation of the American elite and the way to a meaningful life the first part obviously is the critical part and the second part is some attempt at a positive vision of what college should be what higher education should be.
最重要的事情是，从那天晚上开始，我注意到人们开始向我提问，很多问题实际上是关于“我们应该怎么做？”“我个人该怎么办？”“学校应该如何应对？”“社会应当如何处理？”于是，我意识到我需要给出回答，给我之前所否定的那些事情一个答案和新的方向。这本书正是为此而写的。如果你只知道《新共和》的节选或六年前的某个部分，标题和副标题可能太长让你没能读完。实际上，副标题是“美国精英的错误教育以及通往有意义生活的方法”。第一部分显然是批判性的，而第二部分则尝试勾勒出一个关于大学以及高等教育应该是什么样子的积极愿景。
I think one of the most dismaying things about the negative the negative parts of the reaction that my work has engendered recently the most dismaying and also the most surprising is that to boil it down to very simple terms I said that I don't think that the Ivy League and its peer institutions this is not just about the Ivy League I hope that that's clear don't really provide a real education for most students and the response that I would have expected and did get to some extent is of course they do but that's not the main response I got especially from the more sophisticated cultural commentators such as a couple who wrote in the New Yorker the response was not of course you can get they give you a real education at the Ivy League the response was who wants a real education now don't be a sucker nobody everyone is wise enough to recognize that there's no room in college there's no room in society there's no room in modernity for the kinds of things that Professor Bobo was already talking about and that I talk about and that I'm referring to in admittedly crude shorthand as a real education.
我想最近让我感到最沮丧的事情之一，是我工作的负面反响中，有一点尤其令我感到惊讶，用简单的话来说，就是我说过的，我认为常春藤联盟及其同类学校（不仅仅是常春藤联盟）并没有为大多数学生提供真正的教育。我原本预期会得到的反应，也确实在某种程度上收到了，就是"当然他们提供真正的教育"。但我从更高级的文化评论家，像《纽约客》的几位作者那里得到的回应却是，并不是说这些学校提供真正的教育，而是说“谁还想要真正的教育？别傻了，大家都足够聪明，认识到在大学里、在社会上、在现代化生活中，并没有留给我们讨论的所谓真正的教育的空间。”
I think David Brooks in his response to your gentle colleague as well as to myself I think divided the matter well where he said they're basically three purposes that can be that have been talked about with respect to college there's the vocational purpose getting a job preparing yourself for a career there's the cognitive purpose which is what the professor who shall not be named was referring to the acquisition of knowledge the development of intellectual capacities and then there's what Brooks called the moral purpose that's not the word that works best for me but I call it building a soul I don't know that that works very well either that which is concerned that which concerns us as as as human beings rather than as specialists the truth is I try to address all three of those issues in the book I think all three are important I certainly think the vocational one is important but the one that is increasingly disregarded is increasingly disdained is that moral purpose.
我认为大卫·布鲁克斯在回应您和您的温和同事时，把这个问题划分得很好。他指出，关于上大学，有三个主要目的：第一个是职业目的，也就是为了找工作、为职业生涯做准备；第二个是认知目的，也就是像某位教授所提到的那样，获取知识和发展智力能力；第三个是布鲁克斯所说的道德目的，这个词对我来说不太合适，我称之为“塑造灵魂”，但这也未必是个恰当的词。这一目的是关注我们作为人类而非专业人士的存在。事实上，我试图在书中讨论这三个方面，我认为它们都很重要。当然，我认为职业目的非常重要，但越来越被忽视和轻视的是道德目的。
That okay now I do think that the humanities have a special role to play in fulfilling that purpose of an education I take I take what you said in your introduction I don't mean to make invidious distinctions between science and the humanities and when I that passage that you read comes at the end of a longer passage where I'm trying to distinguish between the sciences and humanities and of course we sometimes ask how big is it but my point is I don't think we talk about statues because they're big I mean we may talk about them for we may talk about that among other things I think probably in the context of talking about their meaning because scale is an aspect of meaning and sculpture among other things so my point was not to make an invidious distinction but to make a distinction.
现在，我确实认为人文学科在实现教育目的方面具有特殊的作用。我理解你在开头的观点，我无意在科学和人文学科之间做出有害的区分。当你读到那段文字时，它是一个较长段落的结尾部分，我试图区分科学和人文学科。当然，我们有时会问：“它有多大？”但我的观点是，我们不是因为雕像很大而谈论它们。我认为我们可能讨论雕像是因为它们的意义，因为规模是意义和雕塑的一个方面。所以，我的观点不是去做一个有害的区分，而是去做一个区分。
I think between science and the humanities and I think it's a distinction that needs to be made because if you don't make that distinction then it becomes too easy to make the argument that the humanities are irrelevant or subordinate or inferior simply put I think there are more there is more than one form of knowledge and there's the form of knowledge that we call science which itself has its own diversity but just for the sake of argument there's a form of knowledge we call science and there's a form of knowledge we call art and undoubtedly there are other forms of knowledge as well and they're not the same thing and they shouldn't be judged by the same standards and I think the humanities in their place in an undergraduate education or in a university should not be judged by the standards of science and there's one of the historical problems with the humanities now is that they've accepted that judgment.
我认为在科学与人文学科之间需要做出区分。如果不区分，那么就很容易有人认为人文学科是无关紧要的、从属的或低级的。简单来说，我认为知识有不止一种形式。我们称之为科学的这种知识本身也有多样性，但为了讨论的方便，我们可以把它称为科学。而另一种我们称之为艺术的知识形式同样存在，毫无疑问，还有其他形式的知识。这些知识形式并不相同，不应该用同一个标准来评价。我认为在人文学科在本科教育或大学中有其特殊的地位，不应以科学的标准来评价。而人文学科现在面临的一个历史性问题就是它们接受了这种科学标准的判断。
Some of the criticisms of my argument are that I'm totally wrong and then some people say well we know all this already so it's like I'm wrong but we already knew it so this seems to be a contradiction. There but in the we already knew this category many of you may know that a former dean of yours Harry Lewis wrote a book not long ago with a very similar title excellence without a soul and Lewis is a computer scientist and he says that professors need to acknowledge that there's some disciplines that are more central to an undergraduate education than others and he's not talking about computer science he's talking about the humanities.
对我论点的一些批评是，有人说我完全错了，而又有人说我们早就知道这些了，所以这看起来就像是我错了又好像我们早就知道了这种矛盾情况。然而，在"我们早就知道了"这一类别中，许多人可能知道你们的一位前院长哈里·刘易斯不久前写了一本书，书名很相似，叫《没有灵魂的卓越》。刘易斯是一位计算机科学家，他表示，教授们需要承认，有些学科在本科教育中比其他学科更为重要，而他这里指的并不是计算机科学，而是人文学科。
I don't want to take too long am I am I already taking my no no okay I um this could be an enormous mistake but I just I've been reading something marvelous and I want to share it with you because I think it's very germane it comes from a an alumnus of this institution Mark Greif who's I think one of the great I'm not going to insult him by calling him a public intellectual he's actually an intellectual he's one of the founding editors of N plus one and he has a beautiful essay on the Harvard philosopher Stanley Kavell.
我不想花太多时间，我已经耽误太久了吗？不不，我只是——这可能是个巨大的错误，但是我最近读到了一些非常精彩的东西，我想与大家分享，因为我觉得它非常相关。这些内容来自于这所学校的校友马克·格雷夫，他是我认为非常杰出的——我不会用公众知识分子来冒犯他，他是一位真真正正的知识分子，也是文学杂志N Plus One的创始编辑之一。他写了一篇关于哈佛哲学家史丹利·卡维尔的精彩文章。
He begins by reflecting on his own undergraduate education here in the mid 90s and I want to read just a couple of very short passages Greif says one of the secrets of a modern American colleges that before undergraduates take up extra curriculars or if they choose not to take up any as I didn't studying is itself the passion and the activity the challenges to be curricular to run through the courses set by civilization up to one's time and then exceed it.
他首先回顾了自己在90年代中期这里的本科教育经历，我想只读几段很短的文字。格雷夫说，现代美国大学的一个秘密就是：在本科生选择参加课外活动之前，或者如果他们和我一样选择不参加任何课外活动时，学习本身就是一种激情和活动。挑战在于修读课程，也就是说，要经历文明发展到我们这个时代所设定的课程，并超越它。
Now he says that this is one of the secrets of the modern college I'm sure that Greif new perfect knows perfectly well that most students don't have that attitude to their education they don't forego extra curriculars for the sake of being curricular and I think they also don't instantiate the next thing he says which is to be a first year student is to be so coddled padded padded fed housed to have so little expected of you as a new arrival to be so insipient that it seems a misfire of spirit not to commit yourself to some single concern to some single concern.
现在他说，这是现代大学的其中一个秘密。我确信，Greif 完全明白，大多数学生对待教育并不是这种态度。他们并不会为了学业放弃课外活动。我想，他们也并没有贯彻他说的下一个观点：作为一名大一新生，你被呵护备至、照顾周到，连吃住都不用操心，对你这个新生的要求非常低，以至于如果你不专注于某一件事情，似乎是一种精神上的失误。
I've not met many undergraduates anywhere freshman or otherwise who commit themselves to one single concern Greif goes on to say I had heard that philosophy had something to do with examining one's life examining one's life and it occurred to me that one's ambition in college should be to become a philosopher in the broadest possible sense which is not disciplinearily specific or at least the best approximation of a philosopher that one can.
我见过的不多，即使是在大一新生中，也很少有学生只专注于一个单一的兴趣。格雷夫继续说道：“我听说哲学与审视自己的人生有关，于是我想到，大学期间的目标应该是成为一个广义上的哲学家，并不局限于某个特定学科，或者至少尽可能接近一个哲学家的状态。”
Greif also develops a Kovell's understanding of the idea of perfectionism which has absolutely nothing to do with the way the word is usually used in this context it refers not to a neurotic relationship to external standards of judgment but attempt to perfect the self he's talking about what he calls the call to a next self what matters most is that the next self isn't above the clouds but right beside you at the edge of vision you might sometimes step right into who you might be without breaking stride.
Greif 还进一步发展了 Kovell 对完美主义概念的理解，这与我们通常使用的方式完全不同。在这里，这个词并不是指对外部评价标准的神经质执着，而是指努力完善自我。他谈论的是所谓的“追求下一个自我”的召唤。最重要的是，这个“下一个自我”并不是高高在云端，而是就在你身边，处于视线的边缘。你有时可能会在不知不觉中迈入可能成为的自己。
The review to the next self issues is that it is right there it may be nagging but it is not inconsiderate its expectations are only your own in hearing the call no one has a right to expect so much of you perfectionism in the American context does indeed resemble the enterprise called self improvement it can't entirely disclaim a family connection with had to stop worrying and start living or wherever you go there you are.
对下一次自我审视的感受是，它就在那里，可能会让人烦恼，但并不是不近人情。其期望仅仅是你自己的心声，没有人有权对你有如此高的期待。在美国文化中，完美主义确实与所谓的自我提升息息相关，不能完全否认与“停止忧虑，开始生活”或“无论你去哪里，都在此处”这些理念的关联。
Things that matter to us in philosophy will always have a range of eruptions what matters in a book is that it is the book you need not where in the library it may be found perfectionism admonishes self improvement only as far to say that the spirit of popular improvement has shown its susceptibility to fixity or recipes for career success and mark the word success rather than spiritual succession perfectionism's. lead title grife says would be how to succeed yourself how to become the next self and keep becoming the next self i have more to say about this i'm going to allow the questions to elicit it if they will the next thing i would say but i will not say it now i will wait for the inevitable question about it because there's always a question about it is that this vision of an education of a liberal arts education is not and never has been understood as a special privilege of the aristocracy my ultimate hope is that it becomes recognized as a right of citizenship and that we make the commitment to ensure that that right is available to all i think i'll stop with that thank you.
在哲学中，对我们重要的事情总会以多种形式出现。一本书真正重要的是它是否是你所需要的，而不是它在图书馆的哪个地方。完美主义提倡自我提升，但只在某种程度上，即大众进步的精神已经显示了其固化或追求事业成功的倾向——请注意，这里的“成功”是指世俗的成功，而不是精神上的继承。完美主义的核心理念应该是如何不断超越自我，如何成为下一个更好的自己。我对此还有更多话要说，不过我会等待大家的问题来引出这些话题。接下来我要说的内容，我现在不说，因为总会有一个相关的问题，那就是有关博雅教育的理念。从来没有人认为它是贵族的特权，我最终的希望是它被视为公民的权利，并且我们承诺确保每个人都能享有这一权利。我就说到这里，谢谢大家。
Our first question comes from Amanda Clayball whose professor of English and chair of the history and literature program and how but thank you so much for being with us thank you so microphone okay you said in your remarks right now that many of the objections you get come from people who doubt that education has anything to do with soul making i'm not sure that's quite right i find very eloquent your account of how you came to make a soul through education what gives me pause when i think of other people pause is when you go on to fault us for failing to ensure that all of our students develop souls and that they do so on a four-year schedule when you seem to imagine that we should be operating under the regime of a kind of no soul left behind and i guess my my question about that you know it's it's an honest question though is what happens when we try to institutionalize what should be a fundamentally individual process and i wonder if you worry about if we make it too clear to our students that what we're trying to do is help them build souls does soul making become yet another box to check for them.
我们的第一个问题来自Amada Clayball，她是英语教授兼历史与文学项目的负责人。非常感谢您参加我们的讨论。您刚才在发言中提到，很多反对意见来自那些怀疑教育是否与灵魂塑造有关的人。我不太确定这是否准确。我觉得您关于通过教育塑造灵魂的经历非常生动。不过，在我想到其他人时有所犹豫的是，当您继续批评我们未能确保所有学生都在四年内发展灵魂，仿佛我们应该实行类似于"一个灵魂也不落下"的计划。我想对此表达我的疑问，这是一个真诚的问题：当我们尝试将本应是一个根本上个人化的过程制度化时，会发生什么？我也想知道，您是否担心如果我们让学生过于明确地知道我们是要帮助他们构建灵魂的话，灵魂塑造会不会变成他们需要完成的另一项任务。
Um i think what um people at ive and at the ive league and its peer institutions uh sometimes neglect to recognize is that there are colleges that actually do these things and this crazy idea that i have that it's possible to create an institution that by its policies beginning with its admissions policies encourages students to undertake what is absolutely an individual process that absolutely lasts a lifetime that this is some kind of crazy idea is is contradicted by actual experience there are schools that do this and there are ways to do it without it becoming institutionalized in an objectionable way um it's about encouraging it it's about explaining it it's about modeling it and it's about admissions policies that encourage the selection of students who are interested in doing it thank you we of course go into the whole issue of soul making um as policy and soul making is curriculum in the in the discussion.
我认为常春藤盟校及其同类院校的某些人有时忽略了一个事实，那就是确实有一些大学在实践这些想法。我有一个疯狂的想法，即可以创建一个通过其政策（从招生政策开始）来鼓励学生进行一种绝对是个人的、持续一生的过程的机构。这个想法其实并不疯狂，因为实际经验表明确有学校在这样做，并且有办法在不令人反感的情况下将其实施。这涉及到鼓励、解释、示范以及通过招生政策来挑选有兴趣实践这一过程的学生。当然，我们也会讨论将“灵魂塑造”作为政策和课程的一部分。谢谢。
Our next question is from Nathaniel donahue who is a senior at Harvard College concentrating in social studies thank you so much for being with us this evening thanks yeah so i think that you rightly point out that there's kind of a problematic trend for kind of a vocational and a for-profit education model at the same time though they do seem to be on to something in the sense that you have two-thirds of their of their classes women they have large numbers of minority students and incredibly large amounts of retention so the question i want to ask is what do we learn from this particular aspect of their success and how do we get that part of it in without also getting in the kind of more problematic parts of a for-profit education.
我们的下一个问题来自哈佛大学的高年级学生内森尼尔·多纳休，他专攻社会研究课题。感谢您今晚与我们一同交流。是的，我认为您正确指出了当前存在的一种关于职业教育和营利性教育模式的问题。然而，同时他们似乎在某些方面确实取得了一些成就，比如他们的学生中有三分之二是女性，还有大量的少数族裔学生，且其保持率高得惊人。因此，我想问的问题是，我们能从他们成功的这些方面中学到什么，并且如何在学到这些优点的同时，避免陷入那些有关营利性教育的更具问题性的方面？
Oh alam sir you're saying that the for-profits are modeling uh so the for-profits are retaining large group like a number of people who are not representing those colleges there are also problematic parts how do we get the good and not that right um i i i'm not sure i agree with the facts as you present them i think one of the things that for-profit schools are notorious for is their abysmal graduation rates among other things they have a strong interest in having students enroll and pay fees and then having them drop out because then they don't have to actually do the teaching um uh for-profits i think exists simply in the in in the interstices of the failure of the non-profit system uh they serve students who are very badly served and they tend to serve them badly in turn they also suck up a hugely disproportionate percentage of federal funding right a federal grant uh student grant funding and student loans there are huge percentage of student loan to dad and default um i haven't thought about the for-profits too wet too much i don't think it's not clear me that there's much to learn from them i'm sad to say except that we need to do better in serving the populations that fall into their clutches.
哦，阿拉姆先生，您是说营利性机构正在塑造，呃，所以这些盈利机构保留了一大群并不代表那些大学的人，也存在一些问题。我们如何获取好的而不是那些不好的呢？嗯，我不太确定我同意您所说的事实。我认为，营利性学校以他们糟糕的毕业率而臭名昭著，除此之外，他们对让学生入学和缴费有着浓厚的兴趣，而之后让学生辍学，因为这样他们实际上就不必进行教学。我认为营利性机构的出现仅仅是因为非营利系统的失败。他们为那些未得到良好服务的学生提供服务，而他们往往同样服务不周。他们还吸收了联邦资助和学生贷款中不成比例的一大部分，这使得学生贷款债务和违约率很高。对于营利性机构，我没想得太多，我不认为我能从他们身上学到很多，让我感到遗憾的是，我们需要更好地服务那些落入他们手中的群体。
Sorry thank you um our next question comes from fawha's habal who's executive dean for education and research at Harvard School of Engineering and applied sciences and senior lecturer in applied physics thank you so much for being with us so i we were asked not to give any preambers i have to kind of either not say anything or shorten it so but i really uh this this point of these differences in disciplines and which is important which is not it really touches my nerves and i i feel very sometimes agitated when i think about it i feel all disciplines aim at the end is to solve problems we have different tools you could not use fork to you know drink water use a cup and at the end we have different methodology in different tools and all of these tools at the end come up with uh uh a solving problems that humanity faces and to that degree i when i think about all the problem that we are facing today whether these are scourge resources whether these are uh poverty all of these large scale problems i look at them and i ask very simple question is how are we going to solve this problem with a discipline i don't believe that's possible and i don't think uh i mean this people have tried it in many different ways and showed that this is completely inadequate.
抱歉，谢谢。那么，我们的下一个问题来自法瓦·哈巴尔博士，他是哈佛工程与应用科学学院的教育与研究执行院长，也是应用物理学的高级讲师。非常感谢您加入我们的讨论。我们被要求不要做任何冗长的介绍，所以我不得不简化一下。不过，我确实想谈谈学科之间的差异以及哪些学科重要、哪些不重要的问题，这让我非常感慨，也让我时常感到不安。我认为所有学科的最终目标都是为了解决问题。我们有不同的工具，就像不能用叉子喝水一样，我们用杯子。最终，我们在不同的学科中运用不同的方法和工具来解决人类面临的问题。
当我思考我们今天面临的所有问题时，无论是稀缺资源还是贫困等大规模问题，我问自己一个很简单的问题：我们如何用单一学科来解决这些问题呢？我不认为这是可能的。事实上，人们已经尝试过多种方式，但证明单一学科的方法是完全不够的。
The point I'm trying to say is the following the question I want to ask is the following is if you look in our research universities with all the capabilities that students can obtain by working with uh people who are doing research would you dismiss the importance of undergraduates working closely with uh faculty doing research and would you then advocate that uh students really should focus on working in small colleges where probably probably the research component there is not as emphasized as places like uh necessarily not necessarily I believe but big universities um again uh you you I think you're asking about what I broadly called early of a cognitive component of a college education I certainly don't uh don't have anything bad to say about it I do think that you know liberal arts colleges also have great research faculty too even if they don't emphasize it to the extent that well Harvard is liberal Harvard is well but it's not a liberal arts college well okay.
我想表达的意思是这样的：我想问的是，如果你看看我们的研究型大学，学生们通过与从事研究的人员合作获得的各种能力，你会否定本科生与开展研究的教师紧密合作的重要性吗？你会建议学生真的应该专注于在小型学院学习吗？这些地方的研究成分可能没有像大大学那样突出。我认为你是在问我对大学教育中的认知成分的看法，我对这个没有什么不好的说法。我也认为文理学院同样有优秀的研究教师，即使他们没有像哈佛这样强调研究。不过哈佛其实并不是传统意义上的文理学院。
But here's the thing here's what I would say I mean without gain you know without negating everything you just said well I'm sorry without negating anything you just said um disciplines don't solve problems that's right people solve problems to me there's no contradiction between the kind of education I've been talking about and the pressing need to solve the problems you're talking about in fact they're symbiotic we are not going to solve the problems simply by churning out technocrats no matter how broadly educated you know how how broadly the specific disciplinary slice they're educated in is the whole need is precisely for people who are well specialized and cognitively well developed in Brooks's terms but who also have the ability to think in the broadest and most human and most experientially informed way that I'm talking about that's the whole point it's it's not just about you know the kid in the corner writing poetry blah blah blah it's precisely because I think we need people with a broad education to solve the problems that we're facing we're not going to solve them the way we've been trying to solve them with with a bunch of as Saul bellow calls it high IQ morons.
但问题在于，我想说的是，没有否定你刚才所说的一切，纪律本身并不能解决问题，解决问题的是人。在我看来，我一直提倡的那种教育与解决你所说的这些紧迫问题的需求并不矛盾，事实上，两者是共生的。无论专业教育的范围有多广，仅仅培养出技术专家并不能解决问题。我们真正需要的是那些在特定领域具备高度专业化和认知能力的人，同时也能够以我所说的那种最广泛、最人性化、最有经验的方式进行思考的人。这正是重点所在。问题不只是关于角落里的那个孩子写诗，仅仅如此是不够的。恰恰是因为我认为我们需要全面发展的人的教育，才能解决我们面临的问题；而不是依靠索尔·贝娄所谓的"高智商的傻瓜"那种方式去解决。
A high IQ moron is someone who's very very good in their own specialty and has no ability to think in a wider way I'm not saying that you fall into that category but I quote in the book I I'm going to make this quick I quote in the book um Heather Richardson who's a former republican congresswoman from Arizona she's a former road. scholar and she's a longtime member of the road scholarship admissions committee and she says exactly this that increasingly our most prestigious institutions are turning out as she's seen them in the road scholarship interview process are turning out people who have a very impressive grasp of a very small subject area and no ability to think about problems not their lives not their stupid little souls but problems in any kind of broad way i completely disagree my experience well i can tell you why we'll come back okay now why is this procedure causing so much raucous fun i mean I'm glad we're having fun and this just passing the question around you wait and see till the argument develops then you'll really start having fun our next speaker is rakesh korana the marvin burr professor of leadership development of the harvard business school and comaster of cabit house and dean of harvard college rakesh thanks for being with us thanks um what do you miss most about being an academic um um it uh i miss teaching and specifically mentorship as teaching understood as as uh as a as a form of mentorship that's what I miss quick question quick answer yeah you said how many how many children do I have no children oh have some and then you'll be mentoring for the rest of your life okay till they start mentoring you.
高智商的傻瓜是指那些在自己专业领域非常非常擅长的人，但没有能力从更广的角度思考问题。我并不是在说你属于这种人，但我在书中引用了一段话，我会简短地说一下。我引用了Heather Richardson的话，她是亚利桑那州的前共和党女议员，也是罗德奖学金的长期评审委员会成员。她提到越来越多的知名学府培养出的人，在小范围的学科领域有很惊人的理解力，但在更广泛的问题上缺乏思考能力。我的经验完全不同，我可以告诉你原因，待会儿我们会回到这个话题。现在，为什么这个程序会引起这么多欢乐呢？我很高兴我们在玩得开心，你等着看争论展开，之后你会更开心。下一位发言者是哈佛商学院的Marvin Burr领导力发展教授兼Cabot House的联合负责人以及哈佛学院的院长Rakesh Korana。Rakesh，谢谢你的到来。谢谢，嗯，你最怀念做学者的什么呢？嗯，我怀念教学，特别是以指导的形式来理解的教学。这是我怀念的地方。快问快答。对了，你有多少个孩子？没有孩子。不过可以有一些，这样你就能当一辈子的指导者了，直到他们开始指导你。
Our next question uh is from kameal oeons at 2013 graduate of harvard college where she was a joint concentrator in history and literature and women gender and sexuality she currently works at the whiting condition thank you so much for being with her thank you uh I guess my question comes from uh what felt like a contradiction that I found where it felt that uh the message that I got from reading the text was that it was very important to find a soul we've already talked about this um to figure out your passion to find your vocation or your calling but uh the book also moves in the direction of leadership that it's important that the graduates of places like harvard are dutiful leaders that they consider people beyond themselves and be beyond places like this and I felt that I couldn't necessarily reconcile um this push towards self actualization and finding the thing that is that you love which may or may not serve the greater good and this call that we are more dutiful to larger society and I just wondered if you think there's a question of emphasis that one is more important than the other or that they work together.
我们的下一个问题来自卡米尔·欧恩斯，她是2013年毕业于哈佛学院的学生，主修历史和文学，以及女性、性别与性研究。她目前在惠廷基金会工作。非常感谢您的参与，谢谢。我想我的问题源自于我所感受到的矛盾：在阅读这本书时，我得到的信息是找到灵魂以及发现自己的激情和使命非常重要，我们已经讨论过这一点。但与此同时，这本书也强调，像哈佛这样的学校的毕业生需要成为有责任感的领导者，他们需要考虑超越自身和超越这些地方的人。我觉得我无法调和追求自我实现与寻找自己热爱的事情（这些事情未必对大局有利）和我们对更广泛社会的责任之间的冲突。我想知道您是否认为这其中有没有重点的区别，即哪个更重要，或者它们可以相辅相成。
No I I'd be perfectly honest with you I I recognize that as a contradiction or or a a gap in the argument um and I have not I don't have an answer that fully satisfies myself so I don't certainly don't expect to have an answer to satisfy you but you know I try to avoid uh some of the more common phrases like finding a self or passion I I talk about passion but I also sort of self-consciously question the word and I think maybe the best the best of those rubrics is purpose although that's also become a cliche but I like purpose because it's as I someone I quote in the book says it unites the inner with the outer uh with what feels uh most essential to yourself and what feels like the world most needs from you um I think maybe there's an unspoken um and undoubtedly very unfounded assumption that I'm working with which is that if you really uh if you really do find a sense of purpose it's probably going to involve doing some good for other people however you conceive it which may mean you know writing.
翻译为中文：
不，我会坦诚告诉你，我意识到这是一个矛盾或论点中的漏洞，而且我自己也没有一个让我完全满意的答案，所以我当然不指望能有一个让你满意的答案。不过，你知道，我尽量避免使用一些更常见的短语，比如寻找自我或激情。我谈论激情，但同时也有意识地质疑这个词。我认为也许这些概念中最好的是“目标”，尽管这也已经变成了一个陈词滥调，但我喜欢“目标”，因为正如我在书中引用的某人所说，它将内心与外界结合在一起，与那些你认为对自己最重要的东西和世界最需要你的东西联系在一起。我觉得也许我在工作中有一种未曾言明的假设，虽然很可能毫无根据，但如果你真的找到了目标感，可能会涉及到为他人做一些好事，无论你如何理解的好事，这可能意味着写作。
music or working at an nonprofit or working on Wall Street um and maybe i'm too sang when about human nature or at least human nature as it exists in a certain time and place um but that's my answer i think that i've fulfilled life generally involves some kind of commitment to something larger than yourself um i i don't preach from that ground though um that's about all i can say our final question is from Deanna Sarenson who's the James Rothenberg professor of romance languages and literatures and of comparative literature and dean for the arts and humanities at home thank you Deanna for being with us uh there are so many things that i agreed about uh with you when i read your book and who would object to the notion that we teach our students how to think and as a literary scholar to another literary scholar my question is going to be a textual one and with homie's permission i'm going to read a very brief statement and i'm going to ask you to unpack it with the mantra that we want to teach our students how to think how to balance between general observations and the actual specificity of that observation and here is my tiny tiny text you say on page 65 the fact is that elite schools have strong incentives not to produce too many seekers and thinkers too many poets teachers ministers public interest lawyers non-profit workers or even professors too much selflessness creativity intellectuality or idealism of course without thinking we might have an answer oh it's you know make a lot of money and make donations to the institute but that's obvious think with us and unpack the statement which makes this effort unrecognizable in our daily lives.
音乐、非营利组织工作或华尔街的工作，嗯，也许我对人性或者至少在特定时间和地点存在的人性过于乐观，但我认为，我认为充实的人生通常涉及某种超越自我的承诺。不过我并不站在那个角度说教。这就是我能说的全部。我们的最后一个问题来自Deanna Sarenson，她是家中的罗曼语文学与比较文学的James Rothenberg教授以及艺术与人文学系的院长。谢谢Deanna加入我们。读完你的书，我有很多地方表示认同，谁会反对我们要教学生如何思考的观念呢？作为一位文学学者对另一位文学学者，我的问题会跟文本有关。征得同意后，我要简单念一段文字，然后请求你解释一下这个观点。我们的教学口号是教学生如何思考，要怎样在一般性观察和具体特性的观察之间找到平衡。以下是我引用的文字。在第65页你说：“事实是，精英学校有很强的动机不去培养太多的探索者和思考者、诗人、教师、牧师、公益律师、非营利组织工作者，甚至教授。过多的无私、创造力、智力或理想主义。当然，不假思索的答案可能是赚大钱并向学院捐款，但这显而易见。与我们一起思考，解析这个让我们在日常生活中难以识别的努力。”
well um but but i but you've preempted the response that I'm going to give which is that I make that statement precisely in the context of making the point that these schools have a business model that depends on producing a certain critical mass of very wealthy alumni and they will always have an incentive not to produce too much too many human qualities that might lead their graduates too many of their graduates not to make a lot of money I'm hardly the first person to say this I point out that when Conan began the move to meritocracy by starting to use the s a c's in the thirties he was very explicit about this this was going to be a minority of students we were still going to mainly take bankers sons now of course you can have it both ways you can be a merit you can train the merit of crafts and if you train them the right way they will become bankers um it's i think a contradiction at the heart of the system which is why my ultimate solution is not to reform the ivy's but to make them unnecessary by building public institutions that can be supported through tax dollars and won't require this kind of bias.
嗯，不过，但我，但你已经预见了我要给出的回应，那就是我之所以在这个背景下做出这样的陈述，是为了指出这些学校的商业模式依赖于培养出一定数量的非常富有的校友，他们总是有动力不去培养过多可能导致他们的毕业生没有太多赚钱能力的人类素质。我并不是第一个这样说的人。我指出，当康南在三十年代开始通过使用SAT（学术能力评估测试）推动向精英制度转变时，他对此非常明确，他说这样做的目的是为了少数学生，大多数还是会招收银行家的儿子。当然，你可以两者兼得，你可以培养精英，如果你以正确的方式培养他们，他们就会成为银行家。我认为这是这个体系中一个核心的矛盾，这也是为什么我觉得最终的解决方案不是改革常春藤联盟，而是通过建立可以通过税收支持的公共机构，使其变得不再必要，从而消除这种偏见。
did i i feel like you really were trying to you were asking for something more but I'm not sure what it was with homies permission yes how would you move between the broad generalization you're making and a more specific recognition of what else goes on i think that these enormous leaps of faith that you expect your readers to make make us the literature professors look a little self-indulgent listen um there are many things in the book for which I present statistical or empirical evidence i think there's some things that are harder that are that aren't susceptible to the same kind of quantification um i just appeal to authority I'm not the first person to make these points um they've been made from within the institutions themselves you can look at the careers that ivy league graduates go into I mean this is this is this is six that is you know much belabored but it's nevertheless true about 50 percent of ivy league graduates depending on the school go into finance consulting or law is that simply because they've chosen to do that well why have they chosen to do that what interest do the universities have in in in encouraging letting that happen whom are they encouraging.
我觉得你似乎在试图表达一些更深层次的观点，但我不确定那具体是什么。在经过同意后，我们可以讨论如何在你提出的广泛概括与更具体的识别之间进行转换。我认为，你期待读者做的这些巨大的信任跳跃，让我们这些文学教授显得有些自负。再说，书中有很多内容我都提供了统计或实证证据，有些事情是更难以量化的，对于这些我只是诉诸权威。我不是第一个提出这些观点的人，它们从体制内部也被提到过。你看看常春藤联盟毕业生的职业选择就知道了，这个话题已经被讨论很多次了，不过它仍然是真实的：根据学校的不同，大约50%的常春藤联盟毕业生会进入金融、咨询或法律领域。这仅仅是因为他们选择了这样做吗？他们为什么会选择这样做？大学在鼓励这一现象方面有什么利益？他们鼓励的对象是谁？
to recruit stanford actually accepts money from corporations to prefer have preferential access to their students it's very hard for you to believe that harvard is missed that trick i would i wouldn't insult harvard by claiming that stanford is doing this in arvardism i would just ask you to think through the evidence that's all and unpack the arguments that i'd stop there thank you dina thank you very much i think now comes the moment when we ask questions to each other across the panel and make our differences um known or our agreements affirmed but i want to start with one with one question when i'm don't you think that there's in your attempt to make a deeply felt and um um uh polimically persuasive kind of argument and there is no question about that i mean it even the even the style of continually referring to the students as the book is written for students and it costs $30 a shot at this one yes that $30 book and it's all written it it does it's written you i want to advise you to i mean i think that's very noble but having said that let me ask you why do you assume and in this country in particular that bankers are not interested in so making if you know that most of the big public institutions here or institutions that feed the public orchestras museums universities i very much understand part of your argument but you can't simply say that lawyers and bankers and and uh financiers are entirely captivated or captured in what they do they or can also have moral imaginations.
斯坦福大学为了方便招聘，的确接受公司资金，以便为这些公司提供优先接触其学生的机会。你可能很难相信哈佛会错过这样的机会。我并不是想贬低哈佛，声称只有斯坦福这样做。我只想请你思考一下相关证据，仅此而已，谢谢你的关注。
我想现在是我们在小组中互相提问的时刻，去表达我们的不同意见或确认我们的共识。我想从一个问题开始，在你试图提出一个深刻且具有煽动力的论点时，你是否认为存在某种倾向性？这一点毋庸置疑。比如你提到的，书是为学生而写，每本售价30美元。是的，30美元的书，完全是为他们写的。我想建议你，我认为这是很高尚的。但让我问你，为什么你认为在这个国家律师、银行家和金融家不关心公益事业呢？你知道这里的大型公共机构，比如乐团、博物馆、大学，很多是由他们资助的。我非常理解你的部分观点，但你不能简单地说律师和银行家完全被自己的工作所限制，他们也可以有道德想象力。
i mean you love you know you love georgio you know uh landowners have moral imaginations in in georgio that you know so i'm surprised that somebody who seems to speak as you have spoken this evening with great generosity and openness should have such stereotypical views i don't think it serves your argument i'm sorry to be okay a little obnoxious about this but i really don't think it serves your argument at all and i think it's a strong argument that it's got admired in this finger pointing and name calling why okay first of all to your first point uh you seem to suggest there's something disingenuous about addressing students in a in a book no i just found it on the street you have to pay money to purchase i don't think in the public institutions of you know people nodding around on the streets are going to be able to say let me read that dude okay well aside from the fact aside from the fact that it's fourteen dollars on kindle uh no no no it's not it's not a different matter and and in fact now hang on for a second hang on for a second because you raised the points i.
我明白你的意思，你是说你喜欢，呃，你爱乔治奥。你知道，乔治奥的地主们有道德想象力。所以，当有人以今晚你所表现出来的慷慨和开放进行演讲，却同时持有这样刻板的观点时，我感到非常惊讶。我认为这并不有助于你的论点。抱歉这样讲可能有些冒昧，但我真的认为这不利于你的观点发展。我觉得你本来有一个很强的论点，但是却陷入了这指责与贴标签的困境。首先，针对你的第一个观点，你似乎暗示在书中与学生交流有些不诚恳。事实上，我是在街上发现这本书的，而不是免费获取的，你必须花钱购买。在公共机构中，你知道的，那些在街上闲逛的人不可能随便说“让我读一下那家伙说什么”。好吧，撇开这个问题不谈，这本书在Kindle上的售价是14美元。请等一下，因为你提到了一些问题，我想回应一下。
yeah this is not my central point um but do get go on i i uh listen books cost more than they should um my book costs more than it should but i don't think there are too many people uh who can't afford fourteen dollars to buy a book online because they're spending fourteen dollars and all kinds of other things and i think it's a really i think it's really disingenuous uh i was talking about the twenty six dollars not about well whatever i can see that there's even if it's twenty six dollars this is not a luxury good okay i'm not selling let's let's get to the main no no you raise the point i will i will i will respond to both points i will respond to both points but don't drag the first one i can see that maybe that people can buy the fourteen dollar book i can see that point you get on to the next one fine this is not about what people choose to do with their lives this is about how they choose to do with their lives and without any empirical evidence that's going to satisfy a literary critic let alone a scientist uh to the extent that i've been able to to hear from people listen to people write what other people have said about this it seems to be the case that students who are choo many many.
好的，这不是我的重点，但请继续。我认为书籍的价格确实太高了，比如我的书也定价过高。但我不认为有太多人负担不起14美元在网上买一本书，因为他们在各种其他事情上也花费着这14美元。我觉得如果说买不起是不真诚的。我之前谈的是26美元，而不是其他的……好吧，我可以理解即使价格是26美元，这也不算奢侈品。我不是在卖奢侈品。我们切入正题，不不，你提到了这个问题，我会回应这两个问题，但不要纠缠于第一个。我可以理解人们可以买14美元的书，我们进入下一个问题。好，这不关乎人们选择如何生活，而是他们选择如何度过生活的方式。而且没有任何实证依据能让文学评论家满意，更别说科学家了。根据我能听到和了解到的内容，以及他人对此的意见，似乎选择的学生很多很多。
many of the students who are choosing finance consulting a law are doing so for lack of a better idea and when i talk about soul making i'm not talking about whether you like to go to the opera or whether later in life when you become wealthy and miserable you pay to support the opera but whether you have reached the point in your life by the time you graduate from college that you were able to figure out what what what it what it is you can do that's going to give your life a sense of meaning and purpose so that you are not susceptible at that point to people who run down or run up to Cambridge and say here you can do this and it's also going to pay a lot of money and then you could do whatever else you want two years from now that's my argument yeah and and i think that somebody who and what we see here again and again are the people who choose these professional options are also great musicians they love literature they have a life plan it's not as if they don't have a life plan because they choose to go to Wall Street um sure would you like to.
许多选择金融、咨询或法律专业的学生，其实是因为他们没有更好的主意。当我谈论“灵魂塑造”时，我并不是指你是否喜欢去歌剧院，或者在你以后变得富有却感到空虚时，你是否会捐款支持歌剧院。而是指，当你大学毕业时，你是否已经找到了让你的人生充满意义和目标的事情，这样你就不会轻易被那些到剑桥兜售高薪职位的人所影响，他们告诉你这些职位能带来丰厚的收入，然后两年后你可以随意做其他事情。我的观点是，这些选择专业的人当中，也有很多是很棒的音乐家，热爱文学，并且有着自己的人生规划。选择去华尔街并不意味着他们没有人生计划。那么，你怎么看呢？
yeah so i'm the new dean of the college so i have no idea what i'm doing um and um but i'm one of the great gifts of my life is and my family's life is being co-master of one of the undergraduate houses and living with our students and you know you do see i think and i want to i want to sort of agree with you that students do feel an anxiety they're we live in an age of anxiety it's an anxiety that comes from parents who see the life middle-class life becoming a father and father reach who naturally want to see their children be okay you see a sense of a winner take all society where it often feels like for the same type of human talent if you go into one occupation profession that may be your calling you're not remunerated at the same level that feels for whatever reason fair and maybe that's partly they didn't you know spend enough time self-examining but it does feel um uh that and i guess my argument would be that i think you put a lot of onus on the institution that creates conditions for people to choose sole making or transformational experience versus one that sort of checking off the box or transactional experience but i think you underestimate the role of the external factors of what's happened in our society in deep and profound ways that um in which even middle-class families often are a few paychecks away from losing what used to be the American dream.
翻译：
是的，我是这个学院的新院长，所以我其实并不太清楚我在做什么。不过，我和我的家人有幸共同管理一个本科生宿舍，与我们的学生一起生活。在这个过程中，我确实看到了一个现象，我想和你达成一致，那就是学生们确实感到焦虑。我们生活在一个充满焦虑的时代，这种焦虑来自于家长们，他们看到中产阶级的生活正在变得越来越难以实现，自然希望他们的孩子能够过得好。你会看到一种赢家通吃的社会氛围，人们常常觉得，即使具备同样的人才，如果选择了某个行业或职业，可能并不会得到同等水平的报酬，这种感觉在某种程度上并不公平，也许这部分是因为他们没有花足够的时间进行自我反思。但确实有这样的感觉。我想我想要表达的是，我觉得你对提供灵魂塑造或转变体验的机构寄予了太多期望，而不是仅仅完成任务或进行交易性的经历。然而，我认为你低估了外部因素在我们社会中所发生的深刻变化所起的作用，甚至连中产阶级家庭往往都只差几次薪水就可能失去曾经认为理所当然的“美国梦”。
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当然，请提供您想翻译的英文文字内容。
and i'm wondering how you would talk to that and is it is it unreasonable to expect students at this age with this context to make that leap which may have been easier a few decades ago yeah it's true that uh that it's gotten harder it's gotten a lot harder um it's also true that all the things i'm describing have been true since the meritocracy has been up and running it's just getting worse and worse all the time so it was true in the 80s when we had sort of the Reagan boom and it
我在想你会怎么谈论这个问题，以及在当前的背景下，期待这个年龄的学生做出这样的转变是否不切实际。几十年前可能比较容易实现，但现在确实变得更加困难了。事实上，自从精英主义开始运作以来，我所描述的所有问题一直存在，只是情况越来越糟。因此，即使在我们经历里根繁荣的80年代，这些问题就已经存在。
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请将以下内容翻译成中文，并确保表达清晰易懂。==========
was true in
"在...的时候是真的"
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好的，以下是您想翻译的内容吗？如果您没有提供要翻译的文本，请提供一些详细信息，我将很乐意帮您翻译。
the 90s when we had the Clinton boom and it was true in the 2000s when we had the bubble uh that we didn't know is a bubble um so so really nothing that i'm describing started in 2008 yeah um i think for a lot of people well there's almost too much to say but i'll i'll say the most direct thing i think the place where that argument is least valid is here because fairly or unfairly quite frankly very unfairly if you if you get out of here with a with
翻译为中文，这段文字的大意是：
“在90年代，当我们经历克林顿经济繁荣的时候，以及在2000年代，我们经历经济泡沫的时候，这些情况都是如此。呃，当时我们并不知道那是个泡沫。所以我所描述的一切确实不是从2008年才开始的。嗯，我想对于很多人来说，有太多可以说的事情，但我会说最直接的一点。我觉得这个论点在这里是最不成立的地方，因为无论是公平或不公平，坦白说，很不公平，如果你从这里脱身，你就会带着一个……”
这个翻译尽量保持了原文的意义，并作了适当的简化以提高易读性。
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请提供您需要翻译的具体文本，我将帮助您将其翻译成中文并确保表达清晰易读。
a degree it's going to be very hard for you not to have a comfortable life you may not be wealthy but by any reasonable standard the Harvard name is going to open every door you want to open and that's why it's especially dismaying to me that the same fears that are very legitimate at a school down the road are still being promulgated or and felt here um Harvard because of its.
获得哈佛学位后，无论如何你都会过上舒适的生活。你可能不会大富大贵，但在任何合理的标准下，哈佛的名声都能为你打开所有想要开启的大门。因此，让我感到特别不安的是，那些在邻近学校非常合理的担忧，居然在这里也同样存在或被传播——即便是在像哈佛这样的地方。
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请将以下文字翻译成中文，确保表达的意思清晰明了，并尽量做到易读。==========
wealth because of its generosity enables students to graduate with relative little debt it already
由于慷慨捐助，该校的财富已经使得学生能够以相对较少的债务毕业。
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请提供您需要翻译的具体文本内容，以便我帮助您将其翻译成中文。
enrolls enrolls a very high percentage of students who come from rich families. uh you know i i i i think the fears are legitimate but highly exaggerated and and i think that maybe the institution could do more to uh well maybe forget that last part that that that's my answer that's my answer yeah so i i i i i just uh i want to go back to something i you started uh before before i forget it now i also having to be a dean for some time but i still don't know what i'm doing uh just the
该机构录取了非常高比例的来自富裕家庭的学生。嗯，你知道，我觉得这些担忧是合理的，但被高度夸大了。我认为也许该机构可以做更多的事情，呃，也许忘记我刚才说的那部分，那就是我的答案，就是这样。所以，我只是想回到你之前提到的一些事情，以免我忘记。虽然我曾担任院长一段时间，但我仍然不知道我在做什么。
========== same i guess so i i think the the issue i have with the book in general is it's in math and we call it delta function it's either zero or one or either a black or white and i really think this is this is a problematic in most of the arguments some of them i agree with no question and some of them easy to agree with the the problem is we take a distribution of human and we say they we narrow it to a degree that becomes very very so narrow that we think we all look alike we all same type of people the same way of thinking the the thing i feel like if taken a tale of a distribution where yes there are people who are looking for for something to work on they want to concentrate on something and they still don't know what they're doing they are 20 years old 21 years old and that's i was one of them one time and i didn't know what i'm doing and that's i don't see it that very abnormal.
我想我对这本书的总体看法有些问题。书中使用了一种我们称为“德尔塔函数”的数学概念，它要么是零要么是一，要么是黑要么是白。我认为这种看法在大多数论点中具有问题性。有些论点我毫无疑问地同意，而有些则容易接受。但问题是当我们讨论人类时，我们会将其分布范围缩小到一个程度，以至于我们以为每个人都一样、思想一致。同样，我觉得如果观察人类分布的尾部部分，会发现一些人正在寻找工作方向，他们想专注于某些事情，但仍不知道自己想做什么。他们可能只有二十或二十一岁。我曾经也是这样一个人，当年也不知道自己在做什么。我并不觉得这种情况有什么特别不正常的。
the the thing is the actually the mean of distribution is not that tale of distribution i think this is very important to do and i'm going to throw on on you a situation which i lived it you know we teach several courses one of the courses we teach is a general problem in general general general course in and this is a for junior not for freshmen for problem solving now the students who take this course are of course is open to anyone at Harvard some of the engineers some of them are not once i had a historian some of the interesting history be part of it and the problem we give them are large scale problems.
事情是这样的，其实分布的均值并不是分布的尾部。我认为这是非常重要的，现在我要给你描述一个我亲身经历的情况。我们教授多门课程，其中一门课程是普通问题解决技巧课程，专为大二学生开设，不是针对大一新生。
这门课向所有哈佛学生开放，一些学生是工程专业的，也有一些不是。我曾有一位历史学家参加过这门课程，课程中有一些有趣的历史元素。我们给学生的问题都是一些大规模的问题。
so last year we looked at last semester we did that problem for kashima we go in as students in my set on some TA and we say okay we're going to look at for kashima and you think about it you think of a problem in for kashima you need to solve and what does it do first thing is you have to figure out what's the problem we're going to solve why it's important this discipline of critical thinking and trying to figure out what to be solved and how to solve it these steps are not done by zombies i can assure you that they are not done by sheep sleepy sheep that's no way they can do that and i can sell you many of these students who get into these things they excel they do fantastic work.
去年我们研究了上学期为鹿岛解决的问题。我们以学生的身份进入项目，一些助教参与其中，我们表示要为鹿岛进行研究。你需要思考一个需要解决的问题。首先你必须弄清楚我们要解决的是什么问题，为什么这个问题重要。这种批判性思维的训练以及弄清楚要解决什么和如何解决的步骤，不是像僵尸一样的无意识行动，我可以向你保证这些不是迷迷糊糊的羊能够完成的。但许多参与其中的学生表现突出，他们的工作非常出色。
and i don't see i mean the description of the students the average students that you have and my average my experience the average students are of my support and and then i ask myself okay so why do we need to take the discussion all the way to one side versus yes you have an argument to make it's important to argument why do you need to generalize it to the degree that you are well i agree there's a distribution i agree i'm not talking about everybody i do think that i am talking more about the mean and the tale but just briefly maybe i haven't understood you properly but i still think that you and i are talking past each other because i absolutely acknowledge that people most of the students who go to these schools are extremely smart and extremely well prepared academically and are going to be great at solving the kind of problem you're talking about.
我没有看到你提到学生的描述，我指的是你们拥有的普通学生，以及根据我的经验，普通学生得到我的支持。然后我问自己，为什么我们需要把讨论推向一个极端，虽然你确实有论点要提出，这很重要，但为什么需要将其概括到如此程度呢？我同意存在分布，不是在谈论所有人，我确实认为我更多是在谈论平均值和尾部。但简而言之，也许我没有正确理解你，但我仍然觉得我们没有真正对话上。因为我完全承认，大多数去这些学校的学生都是极其聪明的，并且在学术上准备得非常好，他们将能够很好地解决你所谈论的那类问题。
that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about the ability to direct your own life i'm talking about not technical or analytical problems but questions of value they're not the same thing i'm not talking about that either when you look at the problem like i'm taking take a case let's say let's take a case of proficient one of the issues that face the people who are working there is whom do they evacuate that's a moral ethical issue it's not an engineering issue we can evacuate 27 people out of about 77 people whom do you evacuate and when you throw questions like these these are moral ethical difficult issue to handle and need to be analyzed discuss and understood and there may be no answer to it but students get engaged with it engage with through the from the deep of their heart is not they're sitting there just to get a grade that's one second is when when when you're looking at the problem that we're trying to solve today is not making better beaker and better pencil and better iPhone the problem we're really solving we're trying to solve today are really these large scale problems it is not how we are going to make better gadget.
这不是我在谈论的内容。我说的是能够掌控自己生活的能力。我讨论的不是技术或分析性的问题，而是价值观的问题。这两者并不相同。我也不是在谈论那些。当你看待问题时，比如说假设一个案例，让我们来看看一个精通某领域的人，他们面临的问题之一是应该撤离谁。这是一个道德伦理问题，而不是工程问题。我们可以从大约77个人中撤离27个人，那你应该撤离谁？当你面对这样的问题时，这些是道德伦理上难以处理的问题，需要进行分析、讨论和理解，也许没有明确答案。但学生们会深入地参与进来，不是因为他们在那只是为了得到一个分数。另一方面，当我们今天面对的问题已经不是如何制造更好的烧杯、铅笔或iPhone了，而是试图解决这些大规模的问题。这不是关于如何制造更好的小工具。
it's not how i could make something that i could be proud of yes there will be people who who are interested in that and there will be who are going to become bankers and and but there are significant number of generation now you could see coming out to look at this problem say these are problem facing earth first in humanity how are we going to solve these problems we know i think that you're right yeah i don't think i need to do it but let me ask you something here and i want to go back to what rakesh said the choices that you think are are less i don't know how to put it that's appropriate ones or the choices that you think yeah give me the words then no because it's not about any particular choice i can easily conceive of someone who decides to to go into finance for reasons that i would completely approve of and i not only can conceive of someone i've met people who got a Williamsburg for reasons that i think are ridiculous there it's just following a different you know conveyor belt yeah it's it's about how the choice is made right.
这段文字翻译成中文并简化为易读的表达如下：
这不是关于如何创造让我感到自豪的东西。是的，会有一些人对此感兴趣，也会有人去成为银行家。但是现在有相当多的一代人开始关注这些地球和人类面临的问题。他们在思考我们如何去解决这些问题。
我认为你说得对，我不认为我需要去做这些，但让我问你一些问题，我想回到拉凯什说过的。当你认为某些选择不太合适，或者你认为合适的选择时，你觉得这怎么描述呢？给我一些措辞吧。
其实这并不是关于某个特定的选择。我完全可以理解有人因为某些充分的理由去选择金融行业，而我也遇到过一些选择去威廉斯堡的人，他们的理由我觉得很荒谬。但这只是一条不同的传送带上的选择而已。关键在于如何做出这个选择。
so can i ask you something what about everything you do my sense was the book seems to focus in a rather american way i went to Oxford is very different you know i didn't have that kind of mentoring because you know it's against it's not in that at the to have that kind of mentoring but it seems to me that there are so many influences what why is the why is the university the most formative and the university and its teachers the most formative why not the friends why not the parents why not the media that is something else that came to me that there are many shaping influences and people choose amongst them and build a life and build a choice and would you not say that there's too much of an influence there's too much to focus and too much of an emphasis you're quite right on the university and not the context of the university i'm granted everything you've said um i'm not saying that colleges can solve all of these problems by themselves or that they're the only thing that's responsible for helping students.
可以问你一些问题吗？关于你所做的一切，我觉得那本书似乎以一种相当美国化的方式在聚焦。我去了牛津，这很不一样，你知道，我没有那种指导，因为这并不符合传统。但在我看来，存在很多影响因素。为什么大学是最具影响力的？为什么大学和它的老师是最具影响力的？为什么不是朋友，为什么不是父母，为什么不是媒体？我认为还有很多其他塑造性影响，并且人们在这些影响中作出选择，建立自己的生活和选择。你难道不认为对大学的影响力太强调了吗？你说得对，大学本身没有包含其全部的背景。我同意你说的一切，我并不是说大学能够单独解决所有这些问题，或它们是唯一负责帮助学生的因素。
um no i mean i'm trying to correct what i what i see as a de-emphasis i'm trying to remind colleges of what they're supposed to be doing and it's been taken as as if i'm saying that only colleges are going to do this but but let me give you two concrete reasons why i think colleges actually do do have a specific a unique and important role to play uh first of all they are or at least used to be set up precisely to address these issues part i mean not entirely but but among other things they were they were set up to do this this is what college historically has been about and they also get students at least at a place like this that are at precisely that moment in their lives when this becomes when these questions become uh extremely important to address the beginning of young adulthood the first time you're away from your family four years when you are relatively free from from practical uh urgencies and of course this is exactly why college once upon a time saw itself as performing among other things that function so it's not like yes there are many other institutions but college just isn't just another one it's not another one.
嗯，不，我是说我在努力纠正我所看到的那种淡化，我在努力提醒学院他们应该做的事情。这被误解为我在说只有学院会做到这一点，但我要给出两个具体的理由，为什么我认为学院确实有一个独特而重要的角色。
首先，学院本身就是为了解决这些问题而设立的，虽然不完全是，但它们在某种程度上就是为了这个目的而存在。这是学院历史上一直以来的作用。
其次，学生进入学院时，正处于他们人生中的一个关键时期，这些问题变得非常重要。那是青年成年的开始，第一次离开家庭的四年，相对自由于实际的紧急事务。当然，这也正是为什么曾几何时学院看待自己的功能之一。因此，这不仅仅是说有许多其他的机构，学院不是其他机构中的一个，它完全不同。
i'm just saying that the walls of the college are much more permeable now and people go in and out of it in very different ways than they used to i think uh so i i just feel they're more the external the boundary between outside and inside in my view is much more complicated than than you seem to present although the fact that you say that there this is a very specific age this very specific time is absolutely is is is is crucial now let me move to uh dianna and then we will open up to questions sorry sorry was this somebody abandon you want to come in? you want to say there's so many people who are eager to decide to make up statement we'll go to dianna and then open up.
我只是说，现在学院的界限变得更加开放，人们出入的方式也比以前多样化。所以我觉得，学院的内外界限在我看来比你所说的要复杂得多。你提到这是一个非常特定的时代，这一点确实非常重要。现在让我转到迪安娜那边，然后我们会开放提问。抱歉，刚才有人想发言吗？有很多人急于发表意见。我们先转到迪安娜，然后再开放提问。
yeah so uh i think we all agree with the same premise you know there's nothing objectionable. about what you're trying schools to do it's again the either or thinking i can tell you that to the extent that Harvard is made up of faculty teaching in the classroom they are there to teach people how to think how to ask all the uncomfortable questions that's what they do every day and that is the school that's they make the school happen every day.
是的，所以嗯，我想我们都同意这个基本前提，你知道的，你所要求学校做的事情没有什么可反对的。这又是一种非此即彼的思维模式。我可以告诉你，在某种程度上，哈佛由在教室里授课的教师组成，他们在那里教授人们如何思考，如何提出各种让人不舒服的问题，这就是他们每天所做的事情，而这就是学校每天运作的原因。
secondly uh at one point later you say don't take any don't do any internships don't think about your career why can't you do both things? you do and i think don't do any do you do don't do anything? do you want to do it? do you want to do it? what do i say? uh tell me in honor of the text thank you don't do an internship what? don't do an internship don't don't don't do anything there's a context there's a context there's a context there's a context i'm talking about a gap aren't i? i'm talking about specifically the gap year don't take a gap year to continue to build your resume because then it's not the kind of gap year i'm talking about so if you want to quote you should also quote the context.
其次，有一次你说过不要参加任何实习，不要考虑你的职业生涯，为什么不能同时做这两件事呢？你有做，我认为你没有做，你愿意做吗？你想做这件事吗？我该怎么说呢？请告诉我文本的原意，谢谢。
不要参加实习？不要参加实习。不是说不要做任何事，而是有背景的，我指的是间隔年(gap year)。我指的是不要把间隔年用来继续充实你的简历，那就不是我说的那种间隔年。如果要引用，请连上下文也一起引用。
i suggest i suggest that you read that same paragraph for the context i want to leave time for the audience but before you get too angry let me suggest that what i'm inviting you to do is to consider forms of internships the texture of the school as it obtains in the classroom so that you step away from the vast generalizations that i hope come from the passion you have for your topic and not for misinformation.
我建议你先阅读那段话，以理解上下文。我想留一些时间给观众，但在你生气之前，我建议你考虑一下实习的形式，以及在课堂上学校的具体情况，这样你就可以跳出那些广泛的概括。我希望这些概括来自于你对话题的热情，而不是误解。
uh let's now we have a we have a a large long capacious hour for questions um let's have some hands up now we're not going to be able to ask everybody and get to everybody but we'll do our best yeah one two three and four keep your hands up there's no other way in which i can recognize you short questions please this short question um dr. Doreshwoods recently it was a big news that Harvard is renaming at school of public health because of a very generous donation very generous yes also renaming a deanship because of a very generous donation um and i guess this is for you and for the rest of the panel how do how do you see universities being able to recognize this kind of generosity without sending mixed messages to students about certain career paths being more preferable than others.
好的，现在我们有一个很长的时间可以来提问。让我们举手示意吧。我们可能无法让每个人都提问，但我们会尽力而为。1、2、3、4，保持举手的姿势，否则我无法认出你们。请提简短的问题。
问题是这样的，Dr. Doreshwoods，最近有一个大新闻，那就是哈佛因为一笔非常慷慨的捐赠，决定重新命名其公共卫生学院。同样地，也因为一笔非常慷慨的捐赠，某个院长职位也被重新命名。我想问一下您和在座的各位：您如何看待高校在承认这种慷慨捐赠的同时，避免向学生传递某些职业道路更受欢迎的混淆信息？
i don't know i mean as i said this is this to me is the is it is um is an unresolvable contradiction in the in the fact of a private university and why i think the original sin here is that we have outsourced the training of our leadership class to a set of private institutions instead of seeing it as a public responsibility as other countries do sorry sorry i have just started i'm a freshman and so this is topic it seems very like pertinent to me i don't like to think of myself as someone without a soul so i was wondering if there was just is there like a guide or a handbook just just like i don't want to be like you know i want to develop myself as a person but i also don't want to think that i'm not already someone with values so how do you balance out the that issue.
我不太清楚。我的意思是，如我所说，这对我来说是一个无法解决的矛盾，尤其是在涉及到私立大学时。我认为问题的根源在于，我们将领导阶层的培训外包给了一系列私立机构，而不是像其他国家那样将其视为公共责任。抱歉，我才刚开始上大学，这个话题对我来说似乎很重要。我不想把自己看作一个没有灵魂的人，所以我在想是否有类似指导手册之类的东西，来帮助我在个人发展中做到平衡。我不想认为自己没有价值观，但同时又想继续自我发展。如何处理这个问题呢？
well what i what i make a point of saying is that a soul is not something you either have or don't have it's something that you develop something that you build the guides are your professors and any any other person you can grab the texts are any book that speaks to you i happen to think literature works pretty well but it doesn't have to be literature your values are precisely what you're here to question.
我想表达的是，灵魂并不是你要么有要么没有的东西，而是你需要去发展和培养的东西。指导者可以是你的老师，也可以是你能找到的任何其他人；教材可以是任何对你有启发的书。我个人认为文学作品效果不错，但并不一定非要是文学作品。你的价值观正是你在此需要质疑和探讨的部分。
i just want to say very quickly and i don't want to over generalize of course because i've been accused of over generalizing what the panel has said but it seems to me that the sense of the committee is we all agree with you but everything here is already fine and i disagree with that we all agree with the purposes but we're we at Harvard already fulfilling those purposes.
我想简要地表达一下我的观点，我当然不想太过笼统，因为我曾被指责过于泛化小组的意见。但在我看来，委员会的整体倾向是，我们都同意你的观点，但这儿的一切已经很好，对此我持不同意见。我们都同意这些目标，但我们在哈佛已经实现了这些目标。
i am again not the first person to suggest that that is not true and one of the people who suggested it is a former dean of Harvard college i'd like to preface my comment by saying that Williams Sloan Coppin who was chaplain at Yale was my mentor and now that i'm 71 years old i'm desperate to find some faculty person in one of these elite schools who's taking a true leadership role and i can think of professor hasket at the business school who talks about servant leadership what we've got is rulership and most of it starts with intellectual well what everyone call it feats noms or whatever just that whole Harvard i just and i don't read ism is just pathological in that it doesn't really care for the soul we aren't having the faculty who are standing up there was an anthropology professor here i don't know all of the details there may be enough reason for her not to get tenure but i do know that she spoke out about the sexual abuse that's happening in our colleges and why the colleges have failed to care for the souls of women thank you for your contribution.
我不是第一个提出这个观点的人，这一点不是真的，而其中一位提出这个观点的人是哈佛学院的前院长。在我发表评论之前，我想说一下威廉·斯隆·科平，他曾是耶鲁大学的牧师，他是我的导师。如今我已经71岁了，非常渴望在这些顶尖学府中找到一位真正扮演领导角色的教员。我想到商学院的哈斯凯特教授，他谈论的是服务型领导，而我们现在所拥有的却是统治型的领导，大部分是从所谓的知识出发，不管你怎么称呼它——“精英主义”也好，别的什么也好，这种哈佛式的病态思维其实并不关心人的灵魂。我们没有看到那些勇于发声的教员。这里曾有一位人类学教授，我并不完全了解她的情况，或许有足够的理由让她没获得终身教职，但我知道的是，她曾揭露校园内发生的性虐待事件，以及这些学校为何未能关心女性的灵魂。感谢你的贡献。
thank you so much sir i'm sure i'm sure i i understand your position thank you sir i'm very grateful to i just have a whole group of people thank you thank you sir you're very kind of you there can i please have the mic here can you give the mic the man in blue please yes so how do you critique graduating students ability to build his or her soul or find his or her path in life without actually critiquing that path so for example you say that students choose careers like banking because they see no better option isn't that just another way of saying they see that as the best option and how can you no critique that because because a lot of people former students and others who've written to me and others who've written about this say this not they think this is the best option but they don't really have a sense of purpose they don't really have a passion i don't feel like i you know people have said this so i might as well do this because it pays a lot of money they tell me that they're going to teach me valuable skills they tell me that i only have to do this for two years i mean this is what you hear over and over again and also people write about people being miserable on Wall Street.
非常感谢您，先生，我非常理解您的立场。谢谢您，先生，我非常感激。我只是有一大群人要感谢您，先生，您真是太好了。请问我可以拿到麦克风吗？能把麦克风给那位穿蓝色衣服的人吗？
是这样的，如何在不评价人生道路的情况下评价毕业生构建自己灵魂或找到人生道路的能力？比如说，有人说学生选择像银行业这样的职业是因为他们看不到更好的选择，这不就是换种说法说他们认为这就是最佳选择吗？为什么不对此进行批评呢？因为许多人，包括以前的学生和给我写信的其他人，以及写过相关内容的人都说，他们认为这不是最佳选择，只是他们没有真正的目标或热情。他们觉得，反正这个工作能赚很多钱，所以不如去做。他们告诉我，这个行业能教给他们有价值的技能，并且只需要做两年这样的工作。这是你一遍又一遍会听到的，还有很多人写到那些在华尔街工作的人感到很痛苦。
i mean we can know i'm sure that there's some people are very happy to be there etc but that's my point and that's why i keep trying to say over and over and it's not about this specific choice it's the way the choice is arrived at so that's right because i think in smaller colleges i have to people are doing better job without over generalizing i they seem to be doing a better job yes i mean in many places that i've talked to graduates professors of what that i've been to they seem to be doing a better job because they're trying to do the job okay that's not happening at these schools right i mean that's the point you guys are not trying to do this you just assume that Harvard students are smart they'll be able to direct themselves you know really i'm that's pretty overblown really but anyway very not very not it's a great performance thank you our christwinship professor of sociology.
我的意思是，我们可以知道有些人很高兴在那里等等，但这正是我的观点，这也是我反复强调的原因。这不仅仅是关于这个特定的选择，而是关于做出选择的方式。没错，因为我觉得在小型学院里，人们似乎做得更好，尽管我不想一概而论。我和那些曾经去过的小型学院毕业生教授交流时，他们似乎确实在更努力地做好工作。然而，这并没有在那些大牌学校发生。我是说，这就是关键，你们似乎并没有真正努力这么做，你们只是认为哈佛的学生都很聪明，他们能够自己掌舵。说实话，这种想法实在是过于夸大了。无论如何，这对他们来说并不是一个很好的表现。感谢我们的社会学教授 Christwinship。
so i want to bring up an issue of degree not of kind so in my years of talking with undergraduates and now i have got a graduate student who's showing us in the research they are very hard at work at the development of soulmaking but it turns out that they're mostly doing it in the context of extracurriculars they're thinking all about public service about leadership how you work with others obviously very important qualities if we look at the data nationally which you did site you know we see over a couple decades a drop from 40 hours a week to 25 hours a week in the amount of time students are spending in academics the data at Harvard are similar and of course if we look at the whole question of the amount of time that faculty spend in the classroom that's also gone down dramatically too as we've reduced teaching loads we have more generous leave policy your questions.
我想要提出的是一个程度上的问题，而不是性质上的问题。在我多年的本科生交流中，以及现在的一名研究生的研究中，我们发现他们非常努力地发展“灵魂创造”的能力。但结果显示，他们大多是在课外活动中进行这种能力的培养，他们非常注重于公共服务、领导力和团队合作，这些显然是非常重要的品质。根据我们查看的全国数据，在过去二十年中，学生花在学业上的时间从每周40小时下降到25小时。哈佛的数据也相似，当然，如果我们看一下教师在课堂上花费的时间，那也显著减少了，因为我们减少了教学负担并有更宽松的假期政策。你的问题是？
your questions well i want to i'm asking isn't really the issue here that there's a growing disjuncture between the academic intellectual aspects of the universe and the soulmaking not that the soul making is not going on thank you very much oh you know i sometimes think that students students have basically created a college for themselves in the form of extracurriculars maybe that's good enough i don't know why we need academics then i mean presumably academics should help contribute to this i'm not calling on people so mike smith in the faculty of arts and sciences i just want to take an objection with your comment that we think everything's fine what we've been doing for the last whatever you want to say three hundred seventy five years doesn't need to change that's not true we're working very hard we ask these questions all the time i tell you every leader that's up there all the leaders that we have here i have never heard.
你提的问题很有意思。我想问的是，这里的问题是不是在于学术知识与心灵造就之间的差距越来越大，而不是说心灵造就没有产生作用。非常感谢。我有时候觉得，学生们通过课外活动为自己建立了一个“学院”，也许这就足够了，我不知道为什么我们还需要学术。按理说，学术应该能对此有所贡献。我并不是在点名挑人。在艺术与科学学院的迈克·史密斯，我只是想对你的评论提出异议，你说我们认为一切都很好，过去三百七十五年我们所做的无需改变，这并不正确。我们一直在非常努力地工作。我们一直在问这些问题。告诉你，每一个领导者，我们这里的所有领导者，我从来没有听说过。
any one of them the faculty don't tell me that they're satisfied so it would be nice if we could have a conversation about this without the we don't care because that is absolutely not true i don't have a question i apologize for that homie i just wanted to make it very clear that come talk to the leadership that's not how we feel it all come talk to the faculty that is not how the faculty feel thank you hi so i'm a senior in classics here and i'd like to return actually to professor claybo's first question which i think you kind of skirted on the answer a bit so she was asking about you know whether it really should be such a burden on the university and you said yes other universities have instituted policies that really do teach their their students to have souls could you give some specific examples of those and in particular could you do that without referencing admissions because your answer slided to a discussion of admissions which doesn't seem to address the problem right that is to say by affecting admissions you are selecting for students who already have souls rather than giving them to students in the university again.
任何一个教职员工都没有告诉我他们感到满意，所以如果我们能就此进行对话就太好了，而不是"我们不在乎"，因为这绝对不是真的。我没有提问，我为此道歉，我只是想澄清一下，去和领导谈谈吧，因为这不是我们的感受，去和教职员工谈谈吧，因为这也不是他们的感受。谢谢。嗨，我是这里古典学专业的大四学生，我想回到Claybo教授的第一个问题，我觉得你的回答有些回避。她问的是，大学是否真的应该承受这样的负担，而你说是的，其他大学已经实施了真正教导学生拥有灵魂的政策。你能给一些具体的例子吗？特别是能不能不提到招生的问题，因为你的回答转向了招生讨论，这似乎并没有解决问题。也就是说，通过影响招生，你是在选择已经有"灵魂"的学生，而不是在大学期间赋予他们灵魂。
i i perhaps i've perhaps been justly accused of caricaturing i feel there's a lot of caricaturing of my argument especially because i've already answered i'm not talking about having souls or not having souls i'm not talking about universities giving students souls i'm talking about this side of the educational mission that we identify i haven't used this terminology before that we identify more with the function of a college rather than a university and i don't mean these is institutional models i mean these ideas right are universities inherit both of these i don't think you can talk about it without talking about admissions but okay i won't talk about admissions it has to do with first of all first year seminars that that that gives students an actual forum that are that are mandatory that are that are a collective experience that gives students the opportunity to openly question ask these questions reflect on the meaning of college the purpose of college in conjunction with whatever texts the faculty decide to choose.
也许我确实被指责过对我的观点进行了歪曲，但我感到我的观点被过多地漫画化了，尤其是因为我已经解释过，我不是在讨论有没有灵魂，也不是在讨论大学是否给予学生灵魂。我谈论的是我们所识别的教育使命的这一方面。我之前没有使用过这样的术语，但我们更倾向于将其与学院的功能相关，而不是大学。我并不是在谈论这些作为组织模式的意义，而是这些理念。我认为在不谈论入学的情况下，也很难讨论这个问题，但好吧，我就不谈入学了。这首先涉及到一年级的研讨会，它们是强制性的集体活动，为学生提供了一个实际的平台，使他们有机会公开质疑、提问，并结合教师选定的文本，反思大学的意义和目的。
faculty who are incentivized to be much more involved in undergraduate education and spend much more time unmentoring then an institution where i mean this is a cliche winning the teaching award as a junior faculty is the kiss of death when it comes to tenure time okay it may not be true but it's been okay fine but uh it was this is not something that i made up you know there's something going wrong i don't understand are there are there problems that you're all concerned to address or are there no we we address them all the time no we address them all the time that's why we want you here and that's why we are willing to put up with a certain amount of caricature on outside if you're willing to put up with a certain caricature on your side putting up with it baby oh yes baby we're putting up with it too okay so now look hang on i want people to go upstairs because up they have soles up there and they're not being allowed to speak.
鼓励教师更多地参与本科教育，并投入更多时间指导学生，这比某些机构要好。在这些机构中，获得教学奖对年轻教师来说可能是职业生涯的终点，尽管这可能是陈词滥调。我不是凭空捏造这些事情，只是感觉背后有些问题。我不明白，这些问题是否是你们关心并想要解决的？或者不，我们一直在解决这些问题。正因为如此，我们希望你在这里，这也是我们愿意在一些情况下展现包容姿态的原因。而如果你也愿意展现一些包容，那我们就一起努力。好的，现在请大家注意，希望大家上楼去，因为上面有一些灵魂被压抑了，他们没有机会发声。
i want somebody to go up there and take i'm now exclusively going to take questions i'm going to take six questions from this group up yeah yes you know they're like a place yeah somebody's going up for the mic yeah while they're taking the mic up there the lady in green yes uh yes my name's Paula Kaplan i'm in town from my 45th Harvard Radcliffe for union and in listening to current undergraduates one of the things i'm hearing is about a link that's been missing from all the discussion so far and that is i love the the description of the problem solving about Fukushima and so on but what the students have said to us is when we're getting close to graduation we're getting scared about what kinds of jobs we're going to get and that the people who come to Harvard to recruit tend disproportionately to be in these big money areas.
我希望有人上来拿麦克风，我现在只接受问题，我将从这个小组中选择回答六个问题。对，大家都知道他们像在一个地方，是的，有人上来拿麦克风。女士们先生们，看，那位穿绿色衣服的女士，是的，我叫葆拉·卡普兰，我是来参加我的第45次哈佛拉德克利夫同学会的。在听取当前本科生的意见时，我注意到一个讨论中一直缺失的环节。我很喜欢关于福岛问题解决方案的描述等等，但学生们告诉我们的是，当我们快要毕业时，我们会对能找到什么样的工作感到害怕。而来哈佛招聘的人往往不成比例地集中在这些高薪行业。
so i'm wondering when since the Harvard endowment managers get paid a fortune no matter how well the endowment performs why doesn't Harvard take some of that money that it pays to bonuses to these people and use it to bring in to make all kinds of attempts to bring in people to to connect students with other kinds of work that they can do real life jobs mentor them and so on i think this is a very complicated question a very good question maybe you should be elected as an overseer and put this thing right where to put the question right where it belongs thank you very much question from there yeah yeah so um i'm new to the university but i also have a very high-end career job that pays a lot of money um i have a very elite education not from Harvard and i'm glad to be here now but my soul i mean i'm public health oriented and my soul didn't come from the universities i went to it came from my parents but i guess his parents are getting busy and busier you're putting on the um responsibility to universities and i've heard the university side defending it and i've heard your side saying you should do it but neither of you have given us a solution.
当然，这是一个很好的问题。我想问的是，既然哈佛的捐赠基金经理无论基金表现优劣都能获得巨额薪酬，为什么哈佛不把这部分用于奖励的资金投入到其他领域，比如帮助学生与现实工作接轨，提供导师指导等。我认为这是一个非常复杂的问题，也是一个非常好的问题，也许你应该被选为监督员，把这个问题放到合适的位置。非常感谢这个问题。
此外，我刚加入这个大学，但我本身拥有一个高薪高端的职业，我接受过精英教育，但不是在哈佛。我很高兴现在能在这里，但我心灵的成长其实更多来自于我的父母，而不是我曾经就读的大学。不过，随着父母越来越忙，教育的责任逐渐落到了大学身上。我听过大学方面的辩护，也听过你这边的主张，但你们都没有给出一个解决方案。
so what is a solution like what do you think should be done because i really think that this comes from your your um your family and your you know you're upbringing about where you go once you enter college the college is fullest facilitates your options tell us what is your solution you seem to have a soul and you have a lot of money and you're doing exactly what you want to do you're in a great position tell us what was your way how did you find your voice my voice was my was my experience through you know what my parents taught me they you know they gave me values i've you know and they said you know we've taught you everything we can teach you now you do what you want to do and that came from you know what i learned as a kid what i what i saw them do and then i thought to myself you know they're my role models and that's the kind of person i want to be.
那么，解决方案是什么？你觉得应该怎么做呢？因为我确实觉得这个问题源于你的家庭和成长环境，尤其是在你进入大学之后。大学是一个为你提供各种选择的平台。那么，你的解决方案是什么？你看起来充满灵魂，拥有很多财富，并且正在做你真正想做的事情，你处于一个非常好的状态。告诉我们你的方法是什么，你是如何找到自己的声音的。我的声音来自于我的经历，特别是我父母教我的东西。他们给了我价值观，并告诉我，“我们已经教给你所有我们能教的东西，现在你可以做你想做的事情。”这源于我小时候学到的东西，以及我看到他们做的事情。然后我告诉自己，他们是我的榜样，这也是我想成为的那种人。
and you know that's what has led me to my desire i feel to do good while doing well the college has just gave me the um the tools and the resources to then even take it to a higher level and so now you know being an institution like this i can cultivate those morals and values and whatever i have to still do well while doing good and still make good money but at what point do you shift that responsibility to the college and i feel that if that is being shifted to the college you have to tell us what does the college do what is the solution when i think that's why we said there are many influences the walls of the college are not impermeable things go in and out but not his but let me want to hear his solution what is your solution.
翻译成中文并简化表达：
你知道，这就是为什么我希望在“做好事”的同时还能“做得好”的原因。大学给了我工具和资源，让我可以更上一层楼。因此，现在在这样的机构中，我可以培养那些道德和价值观，同时在做好事的同时也能赚到钱。但问题是，什么时候应把责任转移到大学身上？我觉得如果责任转移给大学，你必须告诉我们大学做了什么，解决方案是什么？我认为这就是我们说的，有很多影响因素，大学的墙壁不是不可渗透的，东西会进出。但我想听听他的解决方案，你有什么解决方案？
but do we all agree at least it do we all agree that doing good while doing well is the best solution doing good while doing well i want to see how many people agree with doing good while doing well you've been like more or less braided on the on the panel and i apologize for that i really want to hear your solution and thank you for coming how many people think that you like this solution doing good and doing well is the ideal balance there's not a single person agrees with you my dearest friend no there's one person there two three all right what is your solution doing of this balance of inside and outside.
我们是否都同意，在取得成功的同时做好事是最好的解决方案？我想知道有多少人认同这种方法。你在小组讨论中或多或少被批评了，我对此表示歉意。我真的很想听听你的解决方案，谢谢你的到来。多少人认为，你喜欢这种做好事和取得成功的理想平衡？没有一个人同意你吗，我亲爱的朋友？不，有一个人，两个，三个。那么，你对此内外平衡的解决方案是什么？
i'm not sure that that was the the question that was being asked exactly not the individual solution i also like to quote another writer who said my business is complaining not answers but um i think you i think you put your finger on a very important piece here and and some of the book is written to parents and a lot of the people who are reading the book are parents uh i agree that parents are maybe the most important element here but the way parents behave among the class that tends to send its children to ivy league and similar institutions um the way those parents behave has a lot to do with the admissions process that's waiting at the end.
我不太确定这是否正是被提问的问题，而不是关于单个解决方案的问题。我也喜欢引用另一位作家的话，他说，“我的工作是提出问题，而不是提供答案”。不过，我认为你确实指出了一个非常重要的部分，这本书的一部分是写给父母看的，而许多读者也是父母。我同意父母可能是这里最重要的因素，但是那些倾向于送孩子去常春藤联盟或类似机构的家长们的行为方式，与等待他们的录取过程有很大关系。
i think the parents are the biggest problem they can also they are also the best potential solution could you address that question the question put up there is this question of balance of inside and outside university would you have something to say about it either Nathaniel or or or or or or Camille this is how how did you find how do you make these decisions what's the part of what part does the university play what part of your parents play or friends sure i mean yeah like to a certain extent we have a system where there's an impetus on an individual to have some kind of guiding moral code and i think as far as that goes you can't completely inherit it from a university but i do think that the university should we should welcome a role that the university you know should have in building people's character.
我认为父母是最大的挑战，但同时他们也可能是最佳的解决方案。你能讨论一下这个问题吗？那边提到的问题涉及大学内外的平衡。Nathaniel或者Camille，你们对此有何看法？比如说，你们是如何做出这些决定的？大学、父母或朋友在其中起了什么作用？
当然，我觉得在一定程度上，我们的系统中存在一种对个人道德准则的推动力。我认为这部分并不能完全从大学继承，但是大学确实应该在塑造人品方面承担一定的角色。
i don't think that it's too far fetched to believe that the university should for instance reform the uh the way we do tenure and have people who are devoted exclusively to teaching and make that an important part of what it is we do i think that solution which was in the book is something that that i find pretty compelling anyway thank you to your question about what sort of influences i experienced here or before after i think i learned a lot from my peers here and i know that there are a number of ways in which you might say in the book claims that the diversity here is shallow i think there are also ways in which it has really informed a lot of my experience and i think peer-to-peer learning was very important to my development here and the choices that i made outside of here i think the book also makes a lot of claims about how shallow a service learning could be at a place like this and i think that's another area where i learned a lot of insight about what kind of role i want to have as an adult or professional in the world but i think i don't feel like too many things about myself were sealed by being here or by anyone influence although i do recognize that there are a lot of ways that a lot of privilege was conferred to me and and that uh an identity was as well.
我不认为相信大学需要改革，比如改变我们如今的终身教职制度，并设立专注于教学的岗位，这个想法太过牵强。我觉得这本书中的解决方案很有吸引力。关于我在这里或之前之后受到哪些影响的问题，我想我从这里的同辈中学到了很多，我知道书中可能认为这里的多样性流于表面。我也认为这里的多样性确实丰富了我的很多经历，同辈之间的学习对我的成长和在这里之外做出的选择非常重要。书中还提到类似地方的服务学习可能很肤浅，这一点让我对自己成年后或作为专业人士希望扮演的角色有了更深刻的理解。不过，我并不觉得自己因为在这里或受到某人影响就被定性，虽然我确实意识到自己获得了很多特权，并形成了一定的身份。
rakesh you have to deal with parents you meet parents all the time and you meet their children right so this interaction will has just said william has just said that uh that certain forms of parenting have changed or not has active in this what is your experience been of parenting and the effect on children once they come to you in the house? well i think you know again it's it's a it's a little complex in one sense and i understand the importance of making an argument and trying to stay in its clear way i mean i think there's a distribution among our students in terms of the role their parents have played um it's i have a daughter who's a senior in high school come you know we have have a home in a nice suburb and i see the curated perspective that people sometimes take toward their children and i think part of it comes out of really good intentions um but it does in many ways can reduce education into a kind of loss of this as an end in itself and and but i also see that we have many students who don't come from then i'm very kind of anxious a little bit when we have a kind of what i would call a certain 1950s American mythology around that was rooted in a type of diversity in these universities that didn't exist in the kind of meaning of liberal arts that sometimes i think it's coming through with your argument.
拉凯什，你需要和家长打交道，你经常见到家长和他们的孩子，对吧？威廉刚才提到某些形式的教育方式已经发生了变化，或者说在这方面不再积极了。你在接触这些孩子之前，关于教育方式和对孩子的影响有什么经验呢？
我觉得这有点复杂，我理解需要明确阐述自己的观点。我认为，以我们的学生为例，在家长扮演的角色上有一定的差异。我有一个正在读高中的女儿，我们住在一个不错的郊区，我看到有的人对待孩子持有经过精心策划的观点，我认为这部分出于良好的意图。然而，这在很多情况下会简化教育，让其失去本身的意义。
我也看到，我们的很多学生并不是来自这样的背景。当我们讨论一种类似于1950年代美国的神话时，我感到有些焦虑，因为那时候的大学多样性并没有如今理论上的博雅教育所倡导的那种意义。有时我感觉你的观点中有这种倾向。
it has certain kinds of assumptions about class it has certain assumptions around what is the literature or the type of liberal arts that we need to talk about because i think parents don't have access to that kind of grammar and understanding anymore and i think in many ways i guess one part i would look for you to do is what is the meaning and purpose of liberal arts and sciences education in the 21st century without going back to i think the the notions of you know certain kinds of texts and certain you know what's the access to it because i think the issue that's and Dean Smith raised it is this is the conversation we're trying to have which is liberal arts and sciences has been a conversation it you know and it's about what is worth knowing what is worth learning what is the kind of grammar that we want to instill in our students so that they can carry on this life conversation not only with themselves but with others and i think i would find it helpful to hear from you a more kind of updated version of that idea given the types of problems we confront as a society given the demographic changes of our students both socio economically as well as the diversity this country now enjoys.
它对阶级有某种假设，对文学或我们需要讨论的文科类型也有某种假设，因为很多家长对这种语法和理解不再有接触。在很多方面，我觉得我希望你能探讨21世纪文科和科学教育的意义和目的，而不是回归到某些特定文本的概念和谁能接触到这些文本的传统观点上。院长史密斯提到的问题就是我们正在尝试进行的讨论，即文科和科学一直是关于什么值得知道、什么值得学习、我们想在学生中灌输什么样的语法让他们不仅能与自己进行终身对话，还能与他人交流。我希望你能给出一个更符合时代的解读，特别是在我们作为社会面临的多种问题、学生的社会经济背景以及这个国家现在拥有的多元化等因素下。
how do we make this a relevant conversation so i take a minute leave um i don't want to do i don't want to take up the i don't want to dispute the notion that it needs to be an updated version although i i could also do that but i don't want to do that now and i also don't want to just make this relentlessly contentious i i do think there are many things we agree about and one of the things i agree about and i and i do talk about this in the book is that there are intensely practical values for the individual and for society of a liberal arts education and i think we certainly all agree that they've not been communicated very well either to students to parents to politicians and let me just add quickly that i also absolutely agree that i don't know of any college liberal arts university that's doing a good enough job making the connection with the job market right and helping and helping students to imagine careers that are beyond the most obvious ones you can't do it sorry you have to just make one one or come in
我们如何让这个对话变得有意义呢？我想暂时离开一下。我不想反对需要更新版本的观点，尽管我可以这样做，但我现在不想这样做。我也不想让这场对话变得过于争执。我认为我们在许多方面都是有共识的，其中之一就是自由艺术教育对个人和社会都有实际价值。我在书中也提到过这一点。我们都同意，这些价值未能很好地传达给学生、家长和政治家。另外，我完全同意，目前没有哪所大学或学院能够很好地与就业市场建立联系，也没有足够帮助学生想象除最明显职业路径之外的其他职业发展。抱歉，你只能选择做一件事情，或者加入讨论。
i think it's really a mistake to think of ourselves as if we're living in a bubble yeah where is nothing around us i mean we're we're as a students as a faculty as individuals here we're we are citizens of the world and i think part of the sole searching if you want or the ability to to understand, emotive or focus for life, is to know what the word is about. Many of our students go out. Many of them don't come back. Many of them come back, get the degree and go out. So I think there is also flux that we need to see in terms of who we are, what they are trying to do as citizens in the United States, of course.
我认为，把自己看作生活在一个与世隔绝的“泡泡”里是一个错误。我们是不孤立的，我的意思是，作为学生、教师和个人，我们都是世界的公民。我觉得，如果我们想自我探寻，或找寻生活的动力和专注点，就需要了解这个世界的本质。我们的许多学生走出去，很多人没有回来，有些人则完成学位后再离开。所以，我认为我们也需要意识到在美国，我们是谁以及他们作为公民试图做些什么，这种动态变化是值得我们关注的。
Thank you, also. Thank you very much, everybody. There are two questions up there and then I want to come down to two here. There's one in there, somebody that has had his hand, an injured arm up for a long time. I want to give him the mic. You have two questions here. Can you hear me? Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier when you mentioned the idea of Harvard being a place where the aristocracy can be educated. And I was just curious. I haven't been able to read your book yet. I went to Yale some years ago. I'm here at Harvard as a Radcliffe fellow. And while I was at Yale, I remember reading a piece in the newspaper that stayed with me very deeply. It was by a student who came from a very impoverished background talking about how incredibly difficult it was to be a Yale student and how there was so much taken for granted about what kinds of things you would know, what kinds of social habits, et cetera. And one thing that hasn't been talked a lot about here yet is class. And I was actually curious to hear all of you or some of you to talk a little bit about what you're thinking about.
谢谢你，也谢谢大家。上面有两个问题，然后我想下来给这里的两个机会。那边有一个人，他的手一直举着，手臂受伤了很久。我想给他麦克风。你这里也有两个问题。你能听到我吗？好的。你之前提到过哈佛是一个能培养贵族阶层的地方，这让我有些好奇。我还没有来得及阅读你的书。我几年前去了耶鲁，现在作为Radcliffe Fellow在哈佛。还在耶鲁时，我读过一篇让我印象深刻的报纸文章。那是一名来自非常贫困背景的学生写的，他谈到成为耶鲁学生是多么困难，有多少事情是被默认的，比如你应该知道什么、具备什么样的社交习惯等等。有一个在这里还没有被广泛讨论的问题就是阶级。我很好奇，希望听到大家或其中一些人分享一下你们的看法。
How do you think about the problem? I mean, public institutions are one kind of solution, but it would leave private institutions as even more of an aristocracy. Thank you. Can we have the next question from up there, please? Yeah. We'll take them together. Hi, I'm Ari. I'm a PSC student here in English and a resident tutor and dean. My question is about the culture of distraction. I think a lot of what you're talking about is getting people to pay attention. And my question is that a lot of the most real things to people are the emails they're receiving, the texts they're receiving, Facebook, and the things that you're talking about in terms of soul building take time, reading is slow and writing is slow. And how can the university help fight that culture and slow it down a little bit? Thank you.
请问您怎么考虑这个问题的？我的意思是，公共机构是一种解决方案，但这会让私人机构变得更加像贵族机构。谢谢。我们可以从上面开始下一个问题吗？好的。我们一起讨论一下。你好，我是阿里。我是这里英语系的一名博士生，同时也是一名居民辅导员和院长。我的问题是关于分心文化的。我觉得你们讨论的很多内容都是为了让人们更专注。而我的问题是，对于很多人来说，最真实的东西是他们收到的邮件、短信、Facebook上的消息，而你们谈论的那些关于心灵建设的东西需要时间去慢慢阅读和书写。大学如何能够帮助对抗这种分心文化，并让它慢下来呢？谢谢。
And I take a third question here and then we move. No, I'm taking one here. I just wanted to pick up on something we're going to discuss and suggest another way for you to have responded to the dean from engineering. And I teach in the humanities here. And I'm hearing all this about parents, and I feel like saying parents' merits. And to focus, I think you might want to focus, or I'd ask whether you don't want to focus more on the liberal arts and sciences than what they are. They may be changing somewhat, but the liberal arts and sciences are primarily about freedom. About freedom from instrumental reason. They're about disinterested investigation. In other words, the answer to the previous question might have been, yes, we don't solve problems because the liberal arts and sciences are about asking questions, about articulating questions, about understanding them, professional schools, and applied schools are about solving problems.
我来回答第三个问题，然后我们继续。哦，不，我来这里回答一个问题。我只是想讨论我们即将讨论的内容，并建议你可以用另一种方式回应工学院的院长。我在这里教授人文学科，听到关于家长们的讨论，我想说的是家长的功劳。而我认为，你可能应该更多地关注在人文和科学学科上，而不仅仅是它们到底是什么。尽管它们可能有所变化，但人文和科学学科主要关乎自由，摆脱工具理性的自由。它们关乎客观的探究。换句话说，之前问题的答案可能是：是的，我们不一定解决问题，因为人文和科学学科关乎提出问题、表述问题、理解问题，而专业学校和应用学校则是关于解决问题的。
So if you focused on the freedom of that, you could also talk about the freedom from parents. Because, yes, parents have their chance until you go to college. Part of the point of the freedom of liberal arts education is freedom from parents. In my daughter's freshman year, about, it was about October, I said something to her in my usual overbearing way. And she said, you can't talk to me that way anymore. And I was shocked. And then I realized she was right. Liberal arts is freedom. Thank you.
所以，如果你专注于这种自由，你也可以谈谈摆脱父母的自由。因为确实，父母只在你上大学之前有机会影响你。文科教育的一部分意义在于获得从父母那里解放的自由。在我女儿大学一年级的时候，大概是十月，我用我一贯专横的方式对她说了一些话。她回答说，你不能再这样跟我说话了。我感到震惊，但后来意识到她是对的。文科教育就是一种自由。谢谢。
So class, the culture of distraction, and liberal arts is freedom. Let me take them in reverse order, because I want to end with the first one. You're absolutely right. I talk about this in the book, both freedom from parents and liberal arts as a liberating experience. It goes beneath specific technical problems, even as broadly concerned as you want, like global warming, the ultimate technical problem. And it's about, to me, fundamentally, learning to identify and question the most basic assumptions that your first 18 years have handed you, including the assumptions that structure your education, like what is an education or what is success, or is success really what I want to live my life for. So I absolutely agree with you.
同学们，注意力分散的文化和文科教育代表着自由。我想倒过来讲，因为我希望以第一个话题结尾。你说得很对。我在书中谈到了这点，既涉及从父母那里获得的自由，也包括文科教育带来的解放体验。文科教育让我们超越具体的技术问题考量，比如全球变暖这种重大技术难题。对我来说，文科教育的根本在于学习识别和质疑在你前18年中接受的那些最基本的假设，包括那些塑造你教育过程的假设，例如教育是什么，成功是什么，或者成功是不是我真正想追求的生活目标。所以，我完全赞同你的观点。
Distraction, this is where we very forcefully see that there's a limit to what colleges can do, and that this thing that I'm talking about is very countercultural now. There's so much in the culture that makes it harder and harder. It's only harder because of the web. I don't have a good answer to that, except to say, it's another reason to try to do this. Now, the class thing, it's remarkable that you said this. You probably don't realize that there's an article in the Times today about this. In fact, I tweeted, I'm starting to tweet, and I tweeted to these guys, and I said, this is recommended reading. It's specifically about the alienation that lower income students feel at higher income schools. Classes everywhere in this, and it's the largest frame of my argument.
分心，这正是我们强烈感受到大学能做的事情有限之处，而我所谈论的东西现在很反主流文化。文化中有太多因素让事情变得越来越难。这种困难在互联网的影响下变得更加严重。对于这个问题，我没有一个好的解决方案，但我只能说，这给了我们另一个努力去做这件事的理由。关于阶级这个话题，你提到的内容真是令人惊讶。你可能没注意到今天时报上有一篇关于这个的文章。事实上，我刚开始使用推特，并给大家推荐了这篇文章，称其为推荐阅读。这篇文章主要讨论了低收入学生在高收入学校中感受到的疏离感。阶级问题无处不在，这是我论述的最大框架。
I do think that Harvard and other schools do their best to mitigate the class stratification, but there's only so far that the system can ever go. And there's a reason why they've always been upper class and upper and middle class institutions, and why, to me, the solution ultimately has to be free, very high quality, public higher education. China's slogan is 100 Harvard. It's my slogan is 100 Berkeley's. Thank you. Amanda, we haven't heard from you for a while. Do you want to get on any of these class cultural distraction or the liberal arts, and so on? Either of them are all of them.
我确实认为哈佛和其他学校尽力减轻阶级分化现象，但系统的作用始终有限。它们一直以来都是上层和中产阶级的学府，是有原因的。在我看来，最终的解决方案必须是提供免费且高质量的公立高等教育。中国的口号是"100个哈佛"，而我的口号是"100个伯克利"。谢谢。阿曼达，好久没听到你的声音了。你想谈谈有关阶级文化分歧或文科教育等话题吗？任选一个或都可以。
It seems to me that the problem, I don't have a coherent question, but it seems to me that the problem we're struggling with is you. I 100% agree with your diagnosis about the role that these institutions play in justifying under the name of meritocracy an incredibly unequal set of economic relations. I don't know that it is the case that what goes on inside the institution is part of that problem. I think the more interesting story is the ways in which we are impudent to solve that problem.
在我看来，我们面临的问题其实与你有关。我完全同意你的观点，这些机构在某种程度上是以"精英制度"的名义为极不平等的经济关系辩护。我不确定机构内部的运作是否也是这个问题的一部分。我认为更值得探讨的是我们在解决这个问题上的无能为力。
I'm on the educational policy committee with the Recaish we meet every other week. We talk about the academic life of the students and what to do about it, and what we talk about endlessly is the things we exhort them to do, they are influencing one another in their peer culture in ways that we can't figure out how to penetrate. And it's actually, I guess the reason I was asking my question to you about concretely how do we help them? Because you often speak in the rousing mode of the exhortation, and I think many of us, at some point, in the semester, give such an exhortatory speech to our students, live your life, make your own decisions, think for yourself.
我在Recaish的教育政策委员会工作，我们每隔一周会开一次会。我们讨论学生的学术生活以及如何改善，其中我们反复讨论的主题是我们一直努力鼓励他们去做的事情。他们在同龄文化中互相影响，而我们却找不到合适的方法去介入。其实，我是想问您，我们具体该如何帮助他们？因为您常常以激励性的方式进行演讲，而我想我们很多人在学期中的某个时刻都会对学生发表这样的激励讲话：过好你自己的人生，自己做决定，独立思考。
It is absolutely true. And we all say these things. What else can we do beyond exhortation? I think it's what we're here to try to figure out. Live, little, bill, and live. As a first generation student, and also to your point of soulmaking, then eventually, I'll get to a question. From my experience, being exposed to a completely different world than the one I grew up in, and also interacting with my peers who are facing similar challenges, I concur with a lot of what you said earlier about the experience of class at elite institutions like that, like Harvard.
这确实是真实的，我们大家都常常这样说。除了劝诫，我们还能做些什么呢？我想，我们在这里就是为了弄明白这个问题。生活，小账单，继续生活。作为第一代学生，以及关于你提到的灵魂塑造的问题，我最终会提出一个问题。根据我的经验，接触到一个与我成长环境完全不同的世界，并且和面临类似挑战的同龄人互动，我非常认同你早些时候提到的关于在像哈佛这样的精英学院中经历过的阶级体验。
But to me, those experiences have led to some of the most intensive soulmaking that I've been able to go through in my life. I know that I've faced challenges here in the past three years, but I would not trade this experience for anything else. Because I know those experiences will help me and have helped me. And my question, it seems to be that having a Harvard degree will give me and people like me the ability to go into very lucrative professions like consulting or financing. And you seem to begrudge or say that we not to go into these sorts of professions. But to me, it seems that that would deny having diverse voices in these whether we like it or not very powerful institutions.
对我来说，这些经历让我经历了一些我人生中最深刻的心灵塑造。我知道在过去的三年里，我面对了很多挑战，但我不愿意用这段经历换取任何其他东西。因为我知道这些经历将帮助我，并且已经帮助了我。我的疑问是，似乎拥有哈佛学位会让我和我这样的人有能力进入一些报酬丰厚的行业，比如咨询或金融。而你似乎对此持批评态度，认为我们不应该进入这些行业。但在我看来，这实际上是在剥夺我们在这些无论我们喜不喜欢都非常有影响力的机构中发出多元化声音的机会。
Whether we like it or not, banks, these very powerful banks, are going to have an impact on our society. And if institutions like Harvard don't help low income or whatever it may be, having diverse voices into those institutions, that won't be helpful for our society. I think that's a really important point. Congratulations. That's very important. Yeah. Thank you. I really liked the book. And one of the parts of it that I found most compelling was when you were offering advice on this mission of what we are calling soul building.
不管我们是否愿意，这些非常强大的银行都会对我们的社会产生影响。如果像哈佛这样的机构不去帮助低收入群体或者其他需要帮助的人士，缺乏多样化的声音，这对我们的社会是没有好处的。我认为这是一个非常重要的观点。恭喜你，这非常重要。谢谢。我真的很喜欢这本书，其中我认为最引人入胜的部分是你为我们所谓的“心灵建设”这一使命提供建议的时候。
And you said, in particular, it's not as important necessarily to adhere to a specific canon as it is to find your own canon. And so it's in that context that I'd like to wonder aloud for just a moment. If maybe one of the reasons why we seem to suspect your underestimating just how much soul building is going on is that not so much the content of soul building, but the process of soul building is something that's rather narrowly construed in your book.
您特别提到，与其死守某个特定的经典体系，不如找到自己的经典。在这个背景下，我想稍微探讨一下：我们之所以认为您可能低估了灵魂塑造的重要性，也许不是因为灵魂塑造的内容，而是因为您在书中对灵魂塑造的过程理解得过于狭隘。
And to offer an example that hasn't been brought up to it. Let me just make this somewhat specific. So here's something to respond to. I want to bring up this notion of solitude, which you've not only written very eloquently about in your book, but also in your essays, for instance, in the obscure American scholar. And your perspective on solitude was actually very much consonant with my own. I mean, I went to Exeter. And so meditation was sort of the quintessential social activity.
为了提供一个之前没有提到的例子，让我把这个问题讲得具体一些。这里有一个你可以回应的点。我想提到孤独这个概念，你在书中和例如《美国学者》这样的文章中，都对此进行了非常优雅的阐述。其实你的对孤独的看法与我的非常一致。我曾在埃克塞特就读，冥想算是一种典型的社交活动。
And there was this cultural conception that work was something you did alone, and then sharing perspectives on work was what you did together. But then when I got to MIT, I was in much of a culture shock because pretty much the opposite was true. You have very academically talented students and faculty in both places. But all of a sudden, people were congregating around tables not to talk, but to collaborate on everything from programming to video games.
在文化观念上，人们认为工作是你一个人完成的，而分享对工作的看法是大家一起做的事。然而，当我到了麻省理工学院时，我感到很震惊，因为现实几乎正好相反。在这两个地方都有非常有学术才能的学生和教师，但突然间，人们聚集在桌子旁并不是为了聊天，而是为了在各个方面进行合作，从编程到电子游戏。
And so when I first got there, I think I thought it was a very anti-intellectual environment and people thought I was insufferably pretentious. But in retrospect, I would say, well, they may have been right about me, but I was certainly wrong about them. And so just to finish my question, I'd ask, is it maybe that you're underestimating how solubility operates differently for people who may not have the same cognitive inclinations that you do, or I do for that matter?
当我刚到那里的时候，我认为那里是一个非常反智的环境，人们觉得我过于自命不凡。但回过头来看，我会说，他们可能对我是对的，但我对他们的看法是错的。为了完成我的问题，我想问的是，你是否可能低估了对于那些认知倾向不像你我这样的人来说，社交流畅性会有不同的运作方式？
Thank you. And the last question from the lady here. The last question, yes. Thank you, Mr. Doshowitz. I'm a graduating senior and don't have a job yet. So a lot of what you've said and a lot of the texts that I read in your book is something that resonates with me. And I'm sure many other seniors in the room. But in diagnosing the problem that I think definitely touches the cord, I wonder if you're not looking at the institution and the role of an institution.
谢谢你。最后一个问题来自这位女士。是的，最后一个问题。谢谢你，Doshowitz先生。我是一名即将毕业的学生，目前还没有找到工作。您所说的很多内容以及您书中提到的很多观点让我产生了共鸣。我确信在场的其他很多毕业生也有同感。不过，在分析这个显然触动人心的问题时，我想知道您是否也考虑到了机构本身及其作用。
I know that Professor Claywell also touched on this. But the institution itself is divided into so many different groups that have different roles. I for one have had faculty very focused on my soul building. There's the administration. There's the Harvard Corporation. And while I think that your argument is definitely one that could be persuasive, I don't think it looks at that in its complexity. And I think that's why it encourages such vitriol among its readers.
我知道Claywell教授也谈到了这一点。但这所机构本身分成了许多不同的群体，这些群体各自承担不同的角色。比如，我就有一些专注于心灵建设的老师。此外，还有行政部门和哈佛公司。虽然我认为你的观点肯定有一定的说服力，但我觉得它没有充分考虑问题的复杂性。这也是为什么它会在读者中引发如此强烈情绪的原因。
And the other question I have is, in considering the institution and the university and the college, I wonder why you don't consider students. You don't consider students responsible for their own soul building in forms of extracurriculars, or the other relationships. Because much of the soul building that I've had is because the onus of building my own soul has been placed on me by the university and by my parents.
我还有一个问题，在考虑这个机构、大学和学院时，我想知道你为什么不考虑学生。你们似乎不认为学生应该对自己的精神成长负责，比如课外活动或其他人际关系。因为我个人的很多精神成长是由于大学和父母把构建我自己灵魂的责任交给了我。
So I guess I would want to hear your response to that. The student is agent. If anything, I think I've been criticized for putting too much on us on the student. And I keep having to insist that while I'm criticizing, it sounds like I'm criticizing you, and I am. I'm really criticizing the people who've created the situation that you find yourself in.
所以，我想听听你对此的回应。学生就是主体。其实，我认为我被批评是因为我把过多责任放在了学生身上。我必须不断强调，虽然听起来我是在批评你，而且我确实在批评你，但实际上我是在批评创造了你所处困境的那些人。
I mean, I really don't. I'm really surprised to hear this, because the book is mostly about the individual student and what the individual student can and should do. And also how maybe parents and universities can help them do that. In terms of different parts of the university having different functions, look, let me just go back to where I started. I made this obnoxious complaint six years ago. And I didn't think anybody would care. And what I got was many, many, many students saying, thank you for articulating my experience. And many, many people passed the piece along. I mean, I don't know who all the million and a quarter people who've read the original piece are. But judging from the responses I've gotten, it seems that people are passing it around. And I don't think they're passing it around just to laugh at me, because there are too many other things to laugh at on the internet in the last six years. So I think I've identified something that's a real problem. We can argue about how much or how many.
我的意思是，我真的不知道。我很惊讶听到这个消息，因为这本书主要是关于个别学生，以及他们能做什么和应该做什么。还讨论了父母和大学如何可以帮助他们。关于大学不同部分有不同功能这一点，让我回到最初的话题。六年前，我提出了一个令人讨厌的抱怨，当时没想到会有人在意。结果，很多很多学生向我表达了感谢，因为我说出了他们的经历。还有很多人把这篇文章传递给别人。我不知道这超过一百二十五万的读者都是谁，但从收到的反馈来看，人们似乎在传播它。我不认为他们只是为了嘲笑我而传播这篇文章，因为过去六年里网络上有太多其他可以嘲笑的事情。因此，我觉得我指出了一个真正的问题。我们可以讨论问题有多大或有多少。
But I mean, I can't really do better than that. I agree that so-building can happen in different cognitive styles. And I think that I'm not sure you're sitting here over the right. But just remember that intellectual collaboration is not the same thing. And there's a reason why I emphasize solitude. The style that I would talk about, actually, that's not solitude, is the one-on-one conversation. The conversation among intimate friends about not a subject, but one's experience. And I'd like to believe that still happens. I have heard from various sources that students have less time for that, too. And then the first generation student and banking, you see, this is exactly why I say that banking per se is not a bad choice. And that sounds like a really good reason to want to go into banking. But that's not necessarily the reason most people who are going into banking go into banking. That's exactly what I mean when I say it's not the choice. That's the problem. It's why you make the choice.
但我的意思是，我可能也做不到更好了。我同意，思维建设可以在不同的认知风格中进行。而且我觉得，我不太确定你是否完全理解我的意思。但请记住，智力上的合作并不是一回事。这也是为什么我强调独处的重要性。我这里所说的风格，其实不是指独处，而是一对一的对话。那种与知心朋友之间的交流，谈论的不是什么特定的话题，而是彼此的生活体验。我希望这种交流依然存在。但我听说学生们也没有太多时间进行这种交流。而提到第一代大学生和银行业，你看，这正是我所说的，银行业本身并不是一个坏的选择。这听起来其实是一个选择银行业的好理由。但这并不一定是大多数选择进入银行业的人所持的理由。这就是我所说的，问题不在于选择本身，而在于你做出选择的原因。
And I think what has happened to CSER, I can't say no to you, but just a second. One quick question. Can you bring? Oh, Chief Fama, oh, thank you, Martin. I'm the great granddaughter of a chief farmer and the niece of a chief farmer. And I could say lots more about that. But it seems to me that this conversation has been so abstract. It's basically about opinions. Your opinion, other people's opinions. These opinions don't fully match. Sometimes they overlap. And all the time, we've been running into the back corner of the back paddocks.
我认为关于CSER的问题，我不能马上给你否定的回答，不过请等一下。我有个简单的问题。你能带来吗？哦，酋长Fama，哦，谢谢你，Martin。我是一个酋长农夫的曾孙女，也是一个酋长农夫的侄女。我可以讲很多这方面的事情。但在我看来，这个对话太抽象了。基本上都是围绕着一些看法讨论：你的看法，其他人的看法。这些看法并不完全一致，有时会有重叠。而且我们一直在走入偏离的角落。
And I would like to ask you now a very personal question. I'd like you to think about an ethical problem that you confronted in real life. Not those things, whether it's two street cars, five passengers, and a fat person on the tracks. But something real. And you don't have to tell us what it is, because that would not be fair, me to ask. But where did you get the resources from? To cope with that very painful, very, very distressing ethical dilemma that you faced. We've all lived part of our lives, some more than others. And we've had these situations.
现在，我想问你一个非常个人化的问题。我希望你能回想一下你在现实生活中遇到的一次伦理困境。不是那种关于两辆电车、五个乘客和铁轨上的胖子的假设情境，而是真实的事情。你不需要告诉我们具体是什么，因为那样问对你不公平。但是，你是从哪里获得资源来应对这个非常痛苦、非常困扰的伦理难题的呢？我们每个人在人生中都有过这样的经历，有的人经历得更多一些。这些情况都是我们生活的一部分。
So I'd love to hear about that. I'd like to know what's behind the question. You're Vanessa's mom. Yes, Vanessa Ryan's mom. I just, Vanessa was a TA of mine. I just saw her at Brown where we had dinner together with some students. And it was a great pleasure to see her. And I just want to acknowledge that. She was a TA. I'm not sure actually. But yeah, right. I mean, yes. And I think that she's very alive to a lot of these issues.
我很想了解这件事。我想知道这个问题背后的原因。你是Vanessa的妈妈，对吗？是的，Vanessa Ryan的妈妈。我只是想说，Vanessa曾经是我的助教。我刚在布朗大学见到她，我们和一些学生一起共进晚餐。很高兴见到她，我只是想表示对此的认可。她曾是我的助教，但我不太确定。不过，是的，我是说，是的。我认为她对很多这些问题都有很深的理解。
Look, listen, the sources of ethical strengths or ethical decision making. And I want to emphasize, we're not talking about a code, right? We're talking about a very complex set of psychological abilities that help you confront novel situations and in the absence of anything that could be called a code. Those strengths come from many different places. In my case, I feel like I'd been lucky at various stages in my life to have certain teachers, some of them were college professors, and to have read certain books and to have read them in a certain way. I wrote this whole book about Jane Austen and helped she stop being a jerk. Other people, listen, other people are going to have different experiences.
看，听，伦理力量或伦理决策的来源。我想强调一下，我们不是在谈论某种行为准则。我们在谈论的是一组非常复杂的心理能力，这些能力帮助你在没有任何所谓的准则情况下应对新情况。这些力量来自许多不同的地方。在我看来，我在生命的不同阶段很幸运，有过一些好老师，其中一些是大学教授，还读过一些特定的书，并以特定的方式去读。我写了一本关于简·奥斯汀的书，并借此帮助自己不再那么自大。其他人，听着，其他人的经历会不同。
And they're all I'm saying is that college ought to play an important role. It's not the only role. It ought to play an important role. And moreover, it is traditionally seen itself as playing that role. And in the last 30 or 40 years for many different reasons, some of which are internal to the academy and some of which aren't, it seems in general to have increasingly retreated from that role. For lots of reasons that are lots of people's responsibility. Does that at all answer the question?
我只是想说，大学应该扮演一个重要的角色，但这不是唯一的角色。大学传统上也一直被视为承担这个责任。然而，在过去的30到40年里，由于各种原因，有些源于学术界内部，有些则不是，大学似乎普遍上越来越脱离了这个角色。这种情况是由很多原因和许多人的责任造成的。这是否回答了你的问题？
I just have to, sorry, Judith, Judith, please. You are on extra time anywhere, and we were very grateful that you made your intervention. But I think I want to draw these two clothes. I want to thank you all. This panel has been very resourceful. William, you've been very open and dramatic and historic and serve our and serve the rest of us. I think it's been great fun.
对不起，朱迪斯，朱迪斯，请稍等。我知道你已经超时了，我们非常感谢你刚才的发言。但我想结束这个环节了，感谢你们所有人。这个小组真的很有见地。威廉，你一直很开放、富有表现力，还有历史感，你为我们所有人服务。我觉得这是一次非常有趣的讨论。
And I think actually positions have shifted and moved and changed. But we've suddenly opened up topics and issues for further argumentation. That's what we do here at the center. That's what you're trying to do in your book. And I think we've established new platforms for argument, new ways of talking to each other. I don't think we could have done better than that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
我认为，其实我们的立场已经发生了变化和转变。但我们突然为进一步讨论打开了话题和议题。这就是我们在中心所做的事情，也是你在书中想要做到的。而且我认为我们已经建立了新的论辩平台和交流方式。我认为我们做到极致了。非常感谢你。谢谢，谢谢。