How to Find & Be a Great Romantic Partner | Lori Gottlieb
发布时间 2025-04-07 12:01:18 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Laurie Gottlib. Laurie Gottlib is a psychotherapist and best-selling author and is considered one of the world's leading experts on relationships. How to find relationships, how to be in relationships effectively, how to leave relationships if necessary, how to grieve them after they're gone, and how to renew them, all from the perspective of looking inward at ourselves, and the stories about ourselves and others that we tell ourselves that can lead us to what we want and what's best for us, or that lead us away from those things.
欢迎收听Huberman实验室播客，在这里我们讨论科学及其在日常生活中的应用工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是Laurie Gottlieb。Laurie Gottlieb是一位心理治疗师和畅销书作者，被认为是世界上关于人际关系的顶级专家之一。她将从自我反省的角度，探讨如何找到人际关系、如何有效地维护关系、如何在必要时离开、如何在关系结束后疗愈自己，以及如何重新修复关系。她的方法关注我们对自我及他人的叙述，这些叙述可能引导我们找到想要的和最适合我们的东西，也可能让我们远离这些目标。
During today's episode, we discuss how the feelings we experience when we're with certain people are the absolute best guide of how poorly or how well those people are suited for us as partners, and the ways in which we miss key signals, both good and bad in relationships, by not paying attention to how we feel. Laurie explains how to better our communication skills, how to determine if somebody's critique of us is valid or not, that certainly is important for everybody, and how texting and technology has changed relationships, and how to navigate all of that by leaning into our own sense of agency, the things that we can control.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论了当我们与特定的人在一起时所感受到的情绪，是判断这些人与我们是否合适的最佳指南。同时，我们会由于忽视自己的感受，而错过关系中的重要信号，无论是好的还是坏的。Laurie解释了如何提升我们的沟通技巧，如何判断别人对我们的批评是否合理，这对每个人都很重要。同时，我们讨论了短信和科技如何改变了人际关系，以及如何通过发挥自身的主动性、专注于我们可以控制的事情，来应对这些变化。
And last but not least, Laurie explains how we can all access more vitality and enjoyment of life, and how so many people don't allow themselves to do that, because the familiarity of their present circumstances overrides their willingness to move forward. This was a really eye-opening episode, and one that I'm certain will help you better understand yourself and what your needs really are, and how you can be happier in or out of a relationship.
最后但同样重要的是，Laurie 解释了我们如何能够获得更多的活力和生活乐趣，以及为什么很多人不愿意这样做，因为他们对现状的熟悉感让他们不愿意前进。这确实是一个让人大开眼界的章节，我相信它会帮助你更好地理解自己以及你真正的需求，无论是在恋爱中还是单身，你都可以更快乐。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是分开的。不过，它是我努力将免费科学信息和科学相关工具带给大众的一部分。为了符合这个主题，本期节目中会有一些赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Laurie Gottlib. Laurie Gottlib, welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. What's the first thing you ask a patient when you're meeting them for the first time? Usually it's something like, tell me what's going on. Tell me why you're here. Tell me what made you decide to come in? And are you listening both to the content of their words and their tone, their physicality? Everything. Yeah, yeah. I think it's so interesting, because sometimes people will say, I'm here because of, and they'll talk about something very difficult, but they're smiling through it. You know, I think it's very nerve-wracking to come in and see a therapist, and you don't know this person, and you're about to share some very personal information that maybe you haven't told anyone in this way.
现在为大家介绍我与劳里·戈特利布的对话。劳里·戈特利布，欢迎你。谢谢你，很高兴能来这里。第一次见到病人时，你通常会问他们什么问题？通常我会问他们一些类似于："告诉我发生了什么事情？"、"告诉我你为什么来这里？"、"是什么促使你决定来这里的？"类似的问题。而你不仅会倾听他们的语意，还会注意他们的语气和肢体语言吗？没错，我会关注一切。我觉得这很有趣，因为有时候人们会说"我来这里是因为……"，然后他们会谈到一些非常困难的事情，但在说的时候却面带微笑。我想，来见治疗师是很让人紧张的事情，毕竟你不认识这个人，却要分享一些非常私密的信息，这些可能是你之前从未以这种方式告诉过任何人的内容。
And so you want to make somebody comfortable. You want to make sure that, you know, you feel like they are not being rushed to share something that they're not ready to share. So it's just the process. I think it's a very human interaction. You know, therapy to me is not like expert and this other person, and then it feels very asymmetrical. Of course, we're using our training, and that's why they're coming to us. But I feel like it's very much a human to human interchange.
你希望让某人感到舒适，确保他们不会觉得被催促去分享他们还没有准备好分享的事情。这是一个过程。我认为这是非常人性化的互动。对我来说，心理治疗并不像是专家与另一个人的关系，那样会显得很不对等。当然，我们会运用我们的专业训练，这也是他们来找我们的原因。但我觉得这更多是一种人与人之间的交流。
Do you think, because I've heard, but I don't know if it's true, do you think that some people tend to create a lot of internal and perhaps external narrative about what happened, who they are, how people are in the world, how they're not, you know, a lot of words to their experience, either spoken or internally, versus people who maybe experience life a little bit differently. Once somebody said in a comment on Instagram, and I still think about this, they said, I don't think in words, I think in feels.
你认为，虽然我听说过，但不确定是不是真的，你认为是否有些人倾向于对自己的经历创造许多内在或外在的叙述？这些叙述包括发生了什么、他们是谁、世界上的人是怎样的、他们不是怎样的，等等。不论是口头的还是内心的，他们都用很多语言来表达自己的体验。而有些人可能以不同的方式感受生活。有人曾在Instagram上的评论中说过一句话，我至今仍在思考，他们说：我不是用语言思考，我用感觉思考。
And my first reaction was like, yeah, I'm from Northern California, and people talk that way sometimes. I thought that's interesting. Maybe there are a lot of people who, for whom language isn't the primary mode of understanding what's going on around them. I think that as humans, we try to make sense of our feelings through stories. That we tell ourselves a story about why we're feeling a certain way.
我的第一反应是，对啊，我来自北加州，人们有时确实会这样说话。我觉得这很有趣。也许有很多人，并不是通过语言来主要理解周围发生的事情。我认为，作为人类，我们总是试图通过故事来理解自己的感受。我们会给自己讲一个故事，说明为什么会有某种感觉。
And sometimes we aren't that skilled because nobody taught us this to access our feelings. And that happens because kids are often talked out of their feelings. So when you're young, for example, and say you say to your parent, I'm really worried about this, and your parent will say, oh, don't worry about that. That's nothing to worry about. Or I'm really mad about this. You're so sensitive, right?
有时候我们不太擅长处理情感，因为没有人教过我们如何表达自己的感受。这是因为很多时候孩子的感受被大人忽视了。比如，小时候你可能跟父母说，“我真的很担心这件事”，而父母可能会说：“别担心，那不值得担心。” 或者你说“我为这件事很生气”，而父母可能会回应：“你太敏感了。”
Or because parents are really uncomfortable when their kids are feeling sad because they feel like it's my responsibility to make sure they're not sad, which is not your responsibility as a parent. You're there to sit with your child and be present for them. So if your child says, I'm really sad that so and so, that was so and so at lunch today. And you know, the parents say, well, here's what you can do. Or that's terrible. Or right, instead of like, oh, tell me more. And I think that as a parent or even as a partner when your partner comes to you or your friend comes to you or a family member comes to you and tells you something, often what we do is we try to talk them out of the feeling that they're having or help them get rid of the feeling because we think it's a negative feeling.
或者家长们内心感到不安，因为他们觉得有责任确保孩子不感到难过，但这其实并不是为人父母的职责。你的职责是陪伴孩子，支持他们。所以，当你的孩子说：“我很难过，因为某某今天饭堂做了某事。”而家长通常会回答：“你可以这样做。”或者“那真糟糕。”其实不如说：“哦，告诉我更多细节。”无论是作为父母，伴侣，朋友还是家人，当对方向你倾诉时，我们常常试图让对方摆脱他们的感受，或者帮助他们消除这种感受，因为我们认为那是消极的感受。
When feelings are all positive because they're like a compass, they tell us what direction to go in if we can access them. So when you say to someone, tell me more, then the kid might say, well, yeah, it was really hard. And then they'll talk about maybe like why the person might have sat at a different table or what might have happened. And we really do have a lot of answers inside if we listen to the feelings. But we're talked out of the feelings. And then we grew up thinking, if I'm feeling sad or angry or anxious, then you know, I need to get rid of the feeling as opposed to I need to use that feeling. And so instead, what we do is we come up with all these stories like the problem is out there as opposed to, oh, I have some really good information in here.
当我们的情绪都是积极的时候，就像指南针一样，它们能告诉我们该往哪个方向走，只要我们能连接到这些情绪。所以，当你对某人说“告诉我更多”时，孩子可能会说：“是的，那真的很难。”然后他们可能会谈论为什么某人会坐在不同的桌子边，或者可能发生了什么事情。如果我们倾听自己的情绪，我们的内心确实有很多答案。但我们被教会忽视情绪，长大后认为如果感到悲伤、愤怒或焦虑，就需要摆脱这些感觉，而不是利用它们。于是，我们创造了种种借口，比如问题在外面，而不是意识到我们的内心其实有很多有价值的信息。
And now ex-girlfriend, we're still on great terms who we had an agreement that served us super well. And that I try and apply going forward, which is nobody tries to shift anyone else. In my mind, I was the one that came up with that, but I think in reality, she was the one that came up with it. There's no way I would have come up with that. But I think it came about through a couple different interactions where I would get off work and sometimes like the initial 20 minutes of interacting was much more difficult than it needed to be. And then I remember we just came up with this plan where we just decide no one's going to shift the other person unless they're like, shift me please, you know, like help me relax or help me get excited about this, which we would never do, right?
现在我们是前女友了，但我们的关系依然很好。我们之前达成了一项协议，对我们非常有用，并且我也努力在未来继续践行。协议的内容是：任何一方都不去改变另一方。在我印象中，是我想出了这个主意，但实际上应该是她想出来的。因为按照我的性格，我不可能会想到这样的主意。之所以达成这个协议，是因为经过几次我下班后的互动，我们发现刚开始的20分钟相处得比预期中要困难。于是我们决定，不去改变对方，除非对方主动请求，比如“请帮我放松”或“帮我为这件事激动起来”，但这些请求几乎从未发生过。
So like when so a policy of not trying to shift anybody or somebody trying to shift our emotions, I think felt really liberating. Right. I think what you're talking about is self-regulation versus co-regulation. So self-regulation is when you're having some kind of internal experience, you have choices like, I'm really angry about this. Okay, how do I self-regulate not to ignore the anger because the anger is telling me that maybe a boundary was broken or maybe somebody's treating me in a way that I don't want to be treated or maybe I'm upset with myself for the way that I acted. So it's good information, but then what do you do with it? Can you self-regulate? Can you find ways to look at the anger without screaming, yelling, self-sabotaging, whatever people do that's not a productive use of their anger or your anxiety or your sadness?
当我们制定一个不试图改变他人的政策，或者不让他人改变我们的情绪时，我觉得这真是一种解放。对，你提到的是自我调节和共同调节的区别。自我调节是指当你内心有某种感受时，你有选择，比如说：“我对此感到非常生气。” 那么如何做到自我调节而不是忽视这种愤怒，因为愤怒这情绪可能是在提醒我们某个界限被打破了，或者有人用我们不喜欢的方式对待我们，或者我们对自己的行为感到不满。这些都是有用的信息，但接下来你该怎么处理呢？你能自我调节吗？你能找到方式来面对愤怒，而不是通过大喊大叫、自我破坏等方式，这是对愤怒、不安或悲伤等情绪的不良处理方式。
Co-regulation is important though, and that's something that you see again, you can see it with parent-child where if the parent can stay calm when the child is not calm, that helps the child to learn to self-regulate. And with a partner, like say you had a really hard day at work and you come home and you're just not in a good mood, it's not your partner's responsibility to help you through that. You need to self-regulate, but it sure helps if your partner is regulated and they can help co-regulate you just because they happen to be regulated. You want two adults in the room, or at least one adult in the room. If you have two children in the room, like grown children, adults, then everybody gets dysregulated.
共同调节是很重要的，这在很多情况下都能看到。比如在亲子关系中，如果父母在孩子不冷静时保持冷静，就能帮助孩子学会自我调节。在伴侣关系中，比如说你工作了一天，心情不好回到家，这时候就不完全是你伴侣的责任来帮你度过难关。你需要自我调节，但如果你的伴侣情绪稳定，就能在无意中帮你一起调整情绪。你会希望在场的是两个成年人，或者至少有一个成年人在场。如果房间里是两个像孩子一样的成年人，那么大家都会变得情绪失控。
So it's really important that at least one person is being the adult in the room and one person is regulated. If both people, like you're in an argument, both people are dysregulated, nothing good is going to come from that. In which case is the best option to just pause it until somebody returns to adulthood? Yes, and that happens so often. It's such an easy fix for couples because sometimes they think, we have to deal with this right now and it feels urgent to deal with it right now because I feel hurt right now, or I can't believe you said that, or we need to resolve this right now. That can be the worst possible thing.
所以，确保至少有一个人在场表现得成熟和冷静是非常重要的。如果两个人都失去了理智，比如在争吵中，那就不会有任何好的结果。在这种情况下，最好的选择就是暂停一下，等其中一个人冷静下来恢复理智。是的，这种情况经常发生。这对于情侣来说是个很简单的解决方法，因为有时候他们会认为必须立即处理问题，因为他们当下感到受伤，或者无法相信对方说了那样的话，或者觉得必须马上解决问题。可事实上，这可能是最糟糕的做法。
So it's not like, let's forget about it. I'm going to go take a walk, or I'm going to go to the gym, or I'm going to go, you know, read for a few minutes, or I'm going to go relax, whatever that is. And then let's talk in an hour about it, or let's talk tonight, right? And you can stay connected during that time. So what are you going to do in the intervening time? If you're just making up stories about the other person, they're insensitive, they don't care about me, they don't prioritize me, then that's not helpful. But in that intervening time, if you can say, if I were telling this story from the other person's perspective, what would their version of this story be? And is there a nugget of overlap? And there is there a nugget of something that feels really genuine to me that I can understand and even have compassion for. And that's going to help you come back when you have the conversation, but you have to be regulated.
所以，这并不是说我们就此忘掉它。我决定去散步，或者去健身房，或者读几分钟书，或者放松一下等等。然后，我们可以一小时后再谈论这个问题，或者今晚再讨论。在这段时间，你可以依然保持沟通。那么，你会在这段时间做什么呢？如果你仅仅在心里编织关于对方的负面故事，比如他们不敏感、不关心我、不重视我，那对解决问题没有帮助。但如果在这段时间里，你可以试着从对方的角度讲述这个故事，他们会如何看待这件事？有没有什么感受是双方共有的？有没有让我感到真实，并且我能够理解甚至对其表示同情的地方？这样的话，当你再和对方沟通时会更有帮助，但你需要先调整好自己的情绪。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, which will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hotter cold during the night? Things of that sort. Now, maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
我想稍作休息，并感谢我们的赞助商Helix Sleep。Helix Sleep提供根据您的独特睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。我在这个节目和其他播客中多次提到，良好的睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。而您睡的床垫会对每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。床垫的软硬程度、透气性等都会影响到您的舒适度，因此需要根据您的个人睡眠需求进行定制。如果您访问Helix网站，您可以进行一个简短的两分钟测验，它会询问您一些问题，比如您是仰卧、侧卧还是趴睡？您夜间的体温是偏高还是偏低？等等。这些问题您可能心中有数，也可能不太清楚，但无论如何，Helix都会为您匹配到最适合的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the dusk mattress. I started sleeping on the dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. So much so that when I travel, and I'm not on my dusk mattress, I really miss it. And when I get home, I just find that I sleep so much better because of that mattress. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixleap.com slash huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off on all mattress orders. Again, that's helixleap.com slash huberman to get up to 20% off.
对我来说，最好的选择就是Dusk床垫。我大约三年半前开始睡在这款床垫上，自那以来，它让我享受到了有史以来最好的睡眠。以至于当我旅行时，离开了我的Dusk床垫，我会非常想念它。而当我回家后，我发现正是因为这个床垫，我的睡眠质量显著提高。如果你也想试试Helix床垫，可以访问helixleap.com/huberman，完成一个两分钟的睡眠测试，Helix会为你匹配一款定制化的床垫。现在，Helix对所有床垫订单提供高达20%的折扣。记得访问helixleap.com/huberman，享受高达20%的优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.
今天的节目也由BetterHelp赞助。BetterHelp提供由持证治疗师进行的全程在线专业心理治疗。我自己每周接受心理治疗已经超过30年了。最初，我是因为必须这样做才能继续留在学校，但很快我就意识到心理治疗对一个人的总体健康来说极其重要。优秀的心理治疗主要提供三个方面的帮助。首先是建立信任的关系，你可以与治疗师倾诉几乎任何问题。其次，它能提供情感支持和有针对性的指导。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and all sorts of goals. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy. Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time-efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to BetterHelp.com slash huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's BetterHelp.com slash huberman.
第三，专业的治疗可以提供有用的见解，这些见解不仅能帮助改善你的情感生活和人际关系，也能提升你与自我和职业生活的关系以及各种目标的实现。BetterHelp让你很容易找到与你合拍的专业治疗师，他们能够为你提供有效治疗带来的三重益处。此外，由于BetterHelp允许治疗完全在线进行，所以非常节省时间，适合繁忙的日程。如果你想尝试BetterHelp，可以访问BetterHelp.com/huberman，首次购买可享受10%的折扣。再次说明，网址是BetterHelp.com/huberman。
One thing that I've observed, I don't have any formal data on this, is that some of the happiest couples I know are couples where I would refer to one person in the relationship as more emotive and expressive and the other person as a little bit on the spectrum. And my observation is that part of the reason those couples seem so harmonious is that the little things don't seem to bother the person on the spectrum because they don't register them. They don't get entangled in the other person's downs or ups, which I guess could be problematic in theory, but it just seems like they get along really well because and I won't, you know, kind of stereotype the labels, but these these couples that I know, it does happen to be the male who is a little bit on the spectrum, the woman who's a little more emotive and it just seems like there's so much harmony there.
我观察到一件事情，我没有正式的数据支持，只是个人的发现：我认识的一些最幸福的夫妻中，有一方比较情绪化和富有表现力，而另一方则有些像自闭症倾向者。我观察到，这些夫妻看起来和谐的部分原因是，那些小事情似乎不会影响有自闭症倾向的一方，因为他们根本就没注意到这些小事。他们不会被对方的情绪低落或高涨所左右，这种情况在理论上可能会有问题，但这些夫妻似乎相处得非常好。我不想对此贴标签化，但在我认识的这些夫妻中，通常都是男方有些自闭症倾向，而女方更具情绪化，结果是他们之间呈现出极大的和谐。
And when I talk to him, I'm generally closer to the man in the relationship, although not always, they say like, yeah, like, you know, doesn't bother me. I just like will listen or if there's something to request, I'll respond to the request. There isn't this entanglement of she's upset. So I like have to respond or this is really painful to listen to. It's more of like a kind of matter of fact. And I just think it's an interesting dynamic. It's obviously not one that people can pre-program themselves for, but I do think it's an interesting dynamic as opposed to what you're describing where emotions can kind of ratchet together like gears. And that can be wonderful when people are in, you know, ecstatic states are happy or there's like the banter of certain couples that are seem pretty motive is something I'm also familiar with observing, but those couples also seem like more volatile like when when somebody's upset, the other person gets upset that they're up and it just starts to deteriorate pretty quickly.
当我与他交谈时，我通常在关系中更接近于男性角色，虽然并不总是这样。他们会说，没关系，我只是倾听，或者如果有需要回应的请求，我会回应。没有那种因为她生气了我就必须回应的纠结感，也没有那种听着让人痛苦的感觉。更像是一种实事求是的态度。我认为这是一种有趣的互动方式。显然，这并不是人们能提前预设好的，但我确实觉得这种互动很有趣。相比之下，你描述的那种情绪如齿轮般交错的关系，在人们处于兴奋状态或幸福时会很美好，还有一些情侣之间那种充满情感的调侃。我对这些现象也很熟悉，但这些情侣似乎也更容易波动。当其中一个人不高兴时，另一个人也会被影响，然后情况很快就恶化了。
Yeah, you don't want to highly reactive people to be together. You also, I think, need to think about there's a saying we marry our unfinished business, right? So let's say that there's somebody who had a parent who was very kind of avoidant or withdrawn. That person, if they haven't processed that, will be drawn to the partner who is more avoidant, but not because it feels good, but because it's familiar. And so sometimes in the kind of couple that you're describing and I don't know the experience of your friends, but I've seen a lot of couples where it looks like that would be a good match because one person is, you know, sort of more in the emotional sphere and one person is less so. But sometimes what that is is one person gets very lonely because they're not really getting that kind of emotional interaction that they want.
对，你不希望两个高度敏感的人在一起。我觉得你也需要考虑一个说法：“我们从婚姻中处理未解决的事务。”比如说，有人小时候的父母非常回避或冷淡。如果这个人还没有处理好这个问题，他们会被一个更加回避的伴侣吸引，但不是因为这样感觉很好，而是因为这种感觉很熟悉。所以，有时候在你描述的那种情侣中，我不清楚你朋友的具体情况，但我看到过很多这种情况，表面上看是不错的搭配，因为一方更情感化，而另一方则没那么情感化。但是，有时候这意味着情感化的一方会感到非常孤独，因为他们没有得到他们想要的那种情感交流。
So it can be a solution for some people because they don't know how to be with a different kind of person, but I also feel like you want to make sure that you have figured out your unfinished business that you're not just, you don't just have radar for the kind of person who hurt you. So what often happens is people haven't processed whatever it was that they wanted more over less of when they were growing up. And then they go out into the world and they're looking for a partner. And they literally have radar for a person who is exactly like the person who hurt them, but doesn't look like that. So it's like, I'm going to choose someone who is the opposite of the parent who hurt me.
对有些人来说，这可能是一个解决方案，因为他们不知道如何与截然不同的人相处。但我也觉得，你需要确保已经处理好内心未解决的问题，而不是仅仅对那些曾经伤害过你的人产生敏感。通常的情况是，人们在成长过程中没有处理好那些他们想要更多或更少的事情。然后，当他们走入社会寻找伴侣时，他们很容易就被那些与曾经伤害他们的人相似、但外表完全不同的人吸引。就像是，他们会选择一个与伤害过他们的家长性格完全相反的人。
And then you find this person and after you get to know them a little bit, you're like, wow, that person drinks a lot too. I didn't realize that or that person is really withholding too. I didn't see that at first or that person yells a lot. I didn't notice that at first. And you're like, how did I get into this exact situation that hurt me as a child? And that's because your unconscious is saying you look familiar, come closer. Because what we're trying to do is we're trying to win. We're trying to master a situation where we felt helpless as a child. We couldn't control the situation with our parents when we were growing up. And now we think, again, this is completely outside of our awareness. I'm going to win this time. I'm going to master this. I'm going to get love from that kind of person. And it doesn't work out.
当你遇到一个新朋友，逐渐了解他们后，你可能会感到惊讶地发现：“哇，这个人也喝很多酒。我之前没有意识到这一点。”或者“这个人真的很沉默寡言，我一开始没看出来。”又或者“这个人脾气很暴躁，我一开始没注意到。”你可能会问自己：“我怎么又陷入了小时候让我受伤的相似境地？”这其实是因为我们的潜意识在说：“你看起来很熟悉，靠近一点。”我们尝试的是在小时候感到无助的情况下取得胜利。当我们小时候没法控制与父母相处的状况时，现在，我们下意识地想：“这次我要赢，我要掌控局面，赢得那种人的爱。”但结果往往不如意。
So I think that you really want to make sure that you are choosing someone for healthy reasons and not because there's some unfinished business that you're trying to work out with this person who is not going to meet your needs. To go a little bit further into this idea, which by the way, I fully subscribe to, based on your explanation of this and my belief that our unconscious mind is driving a lot of our choices. My understanding is that what you just described doesn't adhere to mom, dad, male, female, compartmentalization. And what I mean by that is that I think a lot of people will hear what you just said and assume, okay, if my dad hurt me in the following ways, then let's say it's a woman. And she said, you know, my dad hurt me in the following ways. I mean, he was a drinker withdrawn or he was violent or whatever, then that woman will seek out men that mimic that.
所以我认为，你真的应该确保自己是出于健康的理由来选择某人，而不是因为想通过这个人解决一些未了的事情，但这个人根本无法满足你的需求。进一步探讨这个观点，顺便说一下，我完全同意这个观点，这基于你对此的解释以及我对我们的潜意识在很大程度上驱动我们选择的信念。我的理解是，你刚才所描述的并不局限于父母、男性、女性的分类。我是想说，我认为很多人听到你刚才所说的内容后，可能会假设：好吧，如果我的父亲在以下方面伤害了我，那么假设这是一个女性，她会说，你知道的，我的父亲以如下方式伤害了我，比如他喜欢喝酒又喜欢逃避，或者他曾经暴力，然后那个女性就会去寻找在这些方面与父亲相似的男性。
Here, I'm assuming heterosexual relationship. But if her mother was the one that was the drinker violent and or withdrawn and she's heterosexual, my understanding is based on the dynamics that you described. If she will find those traits in a man, yes, because she's heterosexual, she's seeking men for romantic partners. And I think that's very important. I think that sometimes we put the mom, dad labels on top of the attraction to again, staying in the heterosexual framework here. The opposite sex framework and then people say, well, why is it that this woman always seeks out these like what ended up being really terrible guys? Like she had such a great dad, but she had a dreadful mom. That is absolutely correct.
在这里，我假设的是异性恋的关系。但如果是她的母亲是酗酒、暴力或冷漠的那个人，而她是异性恋，根据你描述的动态，我的理解是如果她在一个男人身上找到了这些特征，是的，因为她是异性恋，所以她在寻找男性作为浪漫伴侣。我认为这非常重要。我想有时候我们把母亲、父亲的标签放在这种吸引力上，再次强调是在异性恋框架内，即对于异性间的吸引力。然后人们会说，为什么这个女人总是找那些最后证明很糟糕的男人？虽然她有一个很好的父亲，但她的母亲却很糟糕。这完全正确。
And I think it's so interesting because they think that people think that having one parent that gave you what you needed is protective. And in some ways, it is. But the thing that hurts is the thing that gets the most attention inside of our bodies. So we don't necessarily think it, but we felt it. We internalized it. It lives inside of us. And so, yes, having a good parent, one of the two, if you have two parents, one of the two is important. But it's interesting that it's not like we seek out the person that like the good parent always. Sometimes again, because we're trying to work something out, we seek out someone like the parent who really hurt us. Such a flaw in our wiring.
我认为这很有趣，因为人们觉得有一个能满足你需求的父母就能提供保护。某种程度上确实如此。但伤害我们的事情总是最引起我们内心的关注。因此，我们不一定直接想过这些，但我们感受过它。我们将其内化，它存在于我们内心。所以，是的，如果你有两个父母，拥有一个好父母非常重要。但有趣的是，我们并不总是寻找像那个好父母的人。有时为了解决某个问题，我们反而会寻找像那个伤害我们最深的父母的人。真是我们本能中的一个缺陷。
Well, I mean, I think that's where therapy is really helpful. I think that's where people are like, well, what is therapy really for? And I think it's really about what are the things that are outside of your awareness, but that are sort of driving the car. So it's like we think we're the driver of our own car. But often like someone else is driving the car and we don't realize it and we think, why does this keep happening? Or what is happening in my life that I'm not getting what I want in whatever dimension it is, whether it's professionally or personally.
我觉得这是心理治疗真正有用的地方。很多人会问心理治疗到底有什么用，我认为它主要是帮助我们了解那些不在意识范围内但却对我们有很大影响的东西。就像我们以为自己在掌控自己的生活，但其实有时候是潜意识在“开车”，而我们没有意识到。于是我们会想，为什么这样的事情总是发生？或者为什么在生活的某些方面，无论是事业上还是个人生活中，我们总是无法得到自己想要的东西。
And so often, it's because there's some force that you are acting out that you don't even realize. And I think the role of therapy is to kind of hold up a mirror to people and help them to see something about themselves that they haven't been willing or able to see. You said that people will pick the person who's exactly wrong for them who feels exactly right at least at first that it has this kind of come here. This summoning aspect to it. Like we feel drawn to it. It feels drawn to us. I mean, that's a relationship start after all. One would hope.
很多时候，这是因为你在表现某种你自己都没有意识到的力量。我认为，心理治疗的作用就是像镜子一样，让人们看到他们自己以前不愿意或者无法看到的东西。你提到人们会选择一个对他们并不合适却又觉得非常合适的人，至少在一开始，这种感觉就像一种召唤，仿佛我们被吸引向对方，对方也被吸引向我们。这不就是关系的开始吗？至少希望如此。
But in this case, you said that people come to find that that person is exactly harbors some of the exact same traits. I'm calling them that behavior as traits. So you know, whatever it is that hurt them in the context of their child parent relationship. Why do you think initially it presents as the opposite? I think it's about the familiarity that there's something so visceral about this feels like childhood. And even if childhood was not optimal or even miserable, it still feels familiar. And humans in general are very afraid of uncertainty. They're very afraid of the unfamiliar.
但在这种情况下，你提到人们会发现那个人恰好具有一些完全相同的特性。我把这些行为称为特性。所以，你知道的，无论是什么在亲子关系中伤害了他们。你为什么认为一开始会表现得相反呢？我认为这是因为熟悉感，这种感觉就像童年时期。即使童年并不理想，甚至很痛苦，但这种感觉依然很熟悉。一般来说，人类非常害怕不确定性，非常害怕不熟悉的东西。
I remember when I was in therapy, my therapist said to me, you know, you remind me of this cartoon. And it's a bra prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open. No bars. Right? So why do we stay in this prison? Why don't we walk? Why don't we even see that it's open? And why don't we walk around the bars? And it's because with freedom comes responsibility and uncertainty. We don't know what's out. We know what it's like to be in prison. That's been our experience.
我记得我在接受心理治疗时，治疗师对我说，你让我想起一个漫画。图中有一个文胸囚犯正在拼命摇晃监牢的铁栏杆，想要逃出来。但在铁栏杆的左右两边其实是开放的，没有任何阻碍。那么，为什么我们一直待在这个监牢里呢？为什么我们不走出去？为什么我们甚至看不见那是开放的呢？原因是，自由伴随着责任和不确定性。我们不知道外面是什么样的，而在监牢里的生活我们已经很熟悉了，这就是我们的经验。
So that feels comfortable. Even though we say we desperately want to get out. And then if we choose the uncertain path, we're responsible for our lives now. We can't blame it on mom or dad or this situation or that situation. I'm not saying those situations weren't impactful. Of course, they were. But we have choices as an adult. We have freedom as an adult that we didn't have as a child. And sometimes it's really hard for us to say, I'm going to have to be responsible for my life. That's terrifying because we feel like we don't have the tools to do that.
这样就感觉比较舒服。即使我们常说迫切想要逃离。但如果我们选择了不确定的道路，我们就要为自己的生活负责。我们不能再把责任推给父母或者某些情况。我不是说那些情况没有影响，当然有影响。不过，作为成年人，我们有选择，有小时候没有的自由。有时候，我们真的很难面对需要为自己的人生负责的这个现实。这让人感到害怕，因为我们觉得自己没有足够的能力去做这件事。
We feel like again, the uncertainty. We'd rather have the certainty of like, I know what it's like in prison. At least I know what that's like and I know the devil you know. And that's not again, that's outside of our awareness. I think what you're describing is a pervasive feature of being human. If I may, there's this kid. He's now a young adult. But if I've watched grow up from a very young age who got into college, he was doing really well.
我们又一次感到不确定性。我们宁愿拥有那种确定感，就像我知道监狱里的生活是什么样的，至少我了解那种情况，还有“认识的恶魔”这种说法。而这又是在我们的意识之外。我觉得你所描述的是人类普遍的特征。如果可以的话，我想说有一个孩子，他现在是个年轻人，但我看着他从小长大。他考上了大学，而且表现得非常好。
Then he fell in love. He made a decision to leave school, relationship ended and talk into him recently. And he's kind of in this kind of dizzying spin of like thinking about how great things were, how he blew it. And he's young. I'm like, listen, you're good. Like he didn't drop out. He just withdrew. He can go back and you know, he'll find another relationship. But you know, and I empathize with him.
然后他坠入了爱河。他决定离开学校，但后来恋情结束了，最近我们聊过这件事。他现在有点头晕目眩地回想过去对他有多美好，以及自己是如何搞砸的。毕竟他还年轻。我对他说，你会没事的。他并没有辍学，只是暂时退出。以后他可以再回去读书，也能找到另一段感情。我对他的处境很同情。
But I passed something along to him that was actually discussed on a, by a former guest on this podcast, Chosh Wateskin, who was a former child, Chess Prajee has gone on to do a number of things. And he said exactly what you're saying, which is in a different context. He said, we get so attached to our current identity and our past identity and trying to resolve those that we're more willing to stay in that state of discomfort than we are to step into a path of potential success. It makes no sense, right? I mean, and so I passed this along. We'll see what he does with that knowledge.
我把一个曾经在我们的播客节目中由前嘉宾乔什·魏茨金讨论过的观点传达给了他。乔什·魏茨金曾是儿童国际象棋神童，如今涉足多个领域。他表达的意思和你所说的相似。他提到，我们常常对我们现在的身份和过去的身份过于执着，努力去解决它们，以至于我们宁愿停留在这种不舒服的状态，也不愿意走上可能成功的道路。这其实没有道理，对吧？我把这个观点分享给了他，看看他会如何利用这些知识。
Yes, it's kind of like the misery of uncertainty. The certainty of misery is sometimes more palatable to people than the misery of uncertainty. So you can be certain that you're going to stay miserable if you stay in jail. But the misery of uncertainty is worse. So it's really interesting that people will make that trade off.
是的，这有点像不确定性的痛苦。对有些人来说，确定的痛苦有时比不确定性的痛苦更容易接受。因此，如果你继续待在监狱里，你可以确定自己会一直痛苦。但不确定性的痛苦更糟糕。因此，人们会做出这样的选择，这真的很有趣。
And the other thing about this attraction question that you're asking about, it's like I had this therapy client and she would pick people who were exactly like one or both of her parents and she would be so attracted to those guys. She'd always go for them and she'd say, men are terrible. Guys are terrible. It's like no, no, no, the men you're choosing are terrible to you. But then you go out on dates with these like great guys and she's like, yeah, no chemistry. No chemistry.
关于你提到的这个吸引力问题，我想起了我曾经有过的一个心理咨询的客户。她总是会被那些和她父母中的一个或两个非常相似的人所吸引，而且对那些人很有感觉。她总是选择他们，然后抱怨说男人太糟糕，男人都不好。我告诉她，其实是你选的人对你不好。但有时候她又会和一些非常优秀的男人约会，却说自己和他们没有感觉，没有化学反应。
Yeah, let's talk about that. What is the flip side? It's the lack of interest in somebody that doesn't overtly or covertly harbor the painful thing that you're so used to. Right. So that's the thing. She was working out this way of she hadn't separated yet from her childhood. So she was trying to kind of reenact her childhood, reenact her childhood with these men. And she didn't realize she was doing that.
好的，让我们聊聊这个。问题的另一面是什么？就是对那些没有明显或隐秘地带给你痛苦感受的人缺乏兴趣。对，就是这样。她还没能从童年中解脱出来，因此她在无意中试图通过和这些男人重现她的童年。她并没有意识到自己在这样做。
She'd just be like, oh, I'm so attracted to this person or things like, you know, I just, I like this guy so much. I don't know why he doesn't call when he says he will. Right. And it's like, who is that like? Who does that remind you of? When have you felt that before that? Like, I never know where I stand with this parent, with this boyfriend. And then the people who are really reliable, who by the way, it wasn't about their physical traits.
她会这样说，哦，我真的很喜欢这个人，或者类似的，比如，我真的很喜欢这个男生，我不知道为什么他说了要打电话却没有打。对吧，然后就像，你觉得这像谁？这让你想起谁？你什么时候有过这种感觉，比如，我从来不知道我在这个父母或者男友的心里是什么位置。然后，那些真正可靠的人，其实跟他们的外貌无关。
Like these men were all physically attractive. It was she felt no sort of again, that word chemistry because there's something very threatening about like, oh, there's no friction. It's a frictionless, you know, thing where he says he's going to call and he does. He's reliable. He does what he says he's going to do. I don't know what to do with that. It just doesn't like light her up in that way because she's not having that big emotional reaction to it because it doesn't feel like the thing that would give her a big emotional reaction.
就像这些男人都很有吸引力一样。她觉得没有那种“化学反应”，因为某种程度上这是个令人不安的事情，比如说，没有任何摩擦。他说要打电话就打了，非常可靠，说到做到。她不太知道怎么面对这种情况，因为这并没有让她感到兴奋，因为她对这种事完全没有强烈的情感反应，它似乎不是能激起她强烈感受的那种事情。
And so when she sort of works that through by the end of the therapy, she became very attracted to the kinds of guys who would treat her the way she wanted to be treated. And she was no longer attracted to the guys that she, so she'd get that initial kind of like, oh, I feel something when I'm in the presence of a guy like that. But I'm not really interested in a relationship with that kind of guy. So that's I think what therapy can do for people.
所以，当她在治疗过程中慢慢想通这些问题后，到了结束时，她开始被那些能够以她期望的方式对待她的男士所吸引。而她不再被以前那种她会有初步感觉但并不真正想与之建立关系的男士吸引。我认为这正是治疗可以为人们带来的效果。
One of the things that I've noticed in my own life is that as I've gotten older, I'll be 50 later this year, been looking forward to that. I feel great. But some of the things that I assumed for so many years, like slow is low. Like when things are really slow, like for many years, it felt kind of depressive. Now I love slow mellow. Like pieces, the thing that I'm just I savor so much.
在我自己的生活中，我注意到的一件事是，随着年龄的增长，我将在今年晚些时候年满50岁，我一直期待着这一刻。我感觉非常好。但是，有些我多年来一直认为的事情，比如“缓慢就是低落”。多年来，当事情进展缓慢时，我常常感到沮丧。现在，我反而热爱这种缓慢宁静。平和是我现在非常珍惜的东西。
But for so many years, I think what you're describing that sort of activation state of excitement. Now it's a pretty wild youth. And then, you know, I mean, I like adventure and I taken on at times dangerous adventures that I shouldn't have lived, told myself I wouldn't do them again, picked a different adventure. But even in like my scientific career or podcasting, any things that feel at times like a bit of a tightrope walk, just given the number of variables that I can't control, just by virtue of what they are.
多年来，我觉得你所描述的这种激动状态就是一种兴奋感。以前，我的青春时期相当狂野。我喜欢冒险，有时候甚至会选择那些危险的冒险活动，明知道可能有生命危险，也告诉自己下次不再这样做，然后又选择了另一种冒险。即使是在我的科学职业生涯或者做播客的时候，也时常感觉像是在走钢丝，因为有很多我无法控制的因素，这是由这些事情的本质决定的。
And the challenge of like long cycles of trying to publish people like the they're kind of scary at some level. It's your profession after all. But I did the same thing in a lot of my relationships. The lovely people in some cases, some cases not. But in most cases, fortunately for me, lovely people. But there was this sense that if something felt like a little bit of an upstate, kind of like a bit more of autonomic arousal, or a lot more autonomic arousal, that it had this kind of magnetic quality to it.
在某种程度上，面临长时间的出版周期是一种挑战，也可能会让人感到有些恐惧。毕竟，这是你的职业。然而，我在许多关系中也经历了类似的情况。幸运的是，大多数情况下，我遇到的人都很友好，但也有少数不是如此。然而，我总有一种感觉，如果有些事情让人感到有点兴奋，甚至是非常兴奋，就会被它的吸引力所吸引。
Whereas I think, and I'm not joking or lying here, I think owning a bulldog taught me how to really save or relaxing. I'm not saying this just to highlight Costello again. I mean, I observed his relationship to the world. And the bulldogs contract with its owner is an amazing one that I think I learned a lot from. The contract is I will die for you. I will literally give up my life to protect you, Andrew. But if that's not on the line, I'm not going to do anything. We're just going to sit here and enjoy the sunshine. We're just going to breathe and we're going to eat food.
我说实话，没有开玩笑，我觉得养斗牛犬让我真正学会如何放松和省心。我不是为了再次强调科斯特洛（Costello）才这么说的。我观察到它与世界的关系。斗牛犬和主人之间的"契约"很奇妙，我从中学到了很多。这种"契约"就是：我会为你而死，我会毫不犹豫地牺牲生命来保护你。但是如果没有危险威胁，我们就什么都不做。我们就只是坐在这里，享受阳光。我们就只是呼吸，吃东西。
Friends are coming over and I'll get excited. And I'm not trying to make too much of this. I really noticed. I was like, wow, he needs so little to be blissful. And yet I know that if like, push came to shove like he's on my side. We've got each other's backs. Yeah. As opposed to, let's talk about a more human contract of like this picture or story of a couple that they have about themselves. Rider die is something people say a lot nowadays. It's beautiful concept, right? Loyalty. Like you're in it together no matter what.
朋友们要来了，我感到很兴奋。其实我不是想把这件事看得太重，只是我真的注意到了这一点。我心想，哇，他只需这么少就能感到幸福。然而我也知道，如果事情真的发生了，他会站在我这边，我们互相支持。而这与其说是一个双方对自己关系的理想化描述，不如说是一种更具人情味的承诺。现在经常有人提到 "生死与共" 这样的说法，这真是个美好的概念，对吧？忠诚无论发生什么，你们都在一起。
But there's a conversion of that, like Rider die. And then there's like Rider die. Like we'll take on anything. We'll bring in chaos. We'll be the chaos and we just don't quit. Very different activation states. Oh, absolutely. And it took me 49 years to learn this. I see it in professional relationships too. People want the exciting thing, the big build. And then they're like, it's the chaos of like, oh, this founder left in this person. And it's like, well, of course, it started in drama. It's going to end in drama.
这段话可以翻译成中文如下：
“但是有一种转换，就像‘生死之交’。然后又有一种‘生死之交’，意思是我们能接受任何挑战。我们会迎接混乱，我们就是混乱本身，而且我们绝不放弃。这代表了非常不同的状态。哦，绝对是这样。而我花了49年才学会这一点。我在职业关系中也看到了这种情况。人们想要刺激的事情，大的构建。然后他们会发现，这是那种混乱，像‘哦，这位创始人离开了另外一个人’。就是那样，既然一开始就是在戏剧性中，那结果当然也是戏剧性的。”
Does this some of this resident? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, two things. One is that there's this concept of cherophobia, which is kind of fear of joy. And so so many people, because they grew up in a way where whenever, let's say the parent was reliable in moments, right? Like at certain times. And then they were unreliable or they were really calm, but then they would blow up. And you never knew what was going to happen.
这是否与一些居民有关？是的，绝对有关。也就是说，有一个叫做“怕欢乐症”（cherophobia）的概念，这是一种对快乐的恐惧。很多人是因为在成长过程中经历了一种不稳定的环境：例如，父母有时候是可靠的，而有时候却不太靠谱，或者他们本来很平静，但突然之间情绪失控。你永远不知道接下来会发生什么。
It was like you were walking on eggshells the whole time, right? So you're very afraid of anything that goes well. You think the other shoe is going to drop. Like at any moment. So you don't want to pick something that, and again, again, outside of your awareness, like you don't pick the calm partner because it feels too good. Like something's going to go wrong. So I'll pick the volatile partner because I'm prepared. I'm prepared for that level of volatility, right?
这就好像你一直小心翼翼，如履薄冰，对吧？你很害怕任何事情顺利进行。你总以为随时会有不好的事情发生。你不愿意选择那些让你感觉太好的事物，因为潜意识里你觉得这样不踏实，好像随时会出问题。所以你反而会选择一个情绪多变的伴侣，因为你已经为这种不稳定做好了准备，对吧？
And so people sabotage all the time, whether it's about a job or a partner or whatever they want, they think I am not going to go there because it's not safe to feel joy because something will go wrong and I will be crushed and it will be harder to have the experience of joy and to have it crushed than to never feel the joy. So there was a woman that I wrote about in my book who she just, she wouldn't let herself feel any joy or get excited about a partner or excited about she wanted to be an artist and doing her art and things were going really well.
人们经常会自我设障，不管是关于工作、伴侣还是自己想要的东西。他们会想：“我不会去尝试，因为感受快乐是不安全的，因为一定会出问题，我会因此崩溃。体验过的快乐被摧毁比从未体验过快乐更难受。”在我书中写到一个女人，她从不允许自己感受到任何喜悦，也不让自己对伴侣感到兴奋，或者对成为艺术家和她艺术作品的发展感到期待，即使一切进展得非常顺利。
And then she'd self sabotage. It's like I would, you can't fire me, I quit, right? It's like I'm going to create the bad thing to happen to myself because if it happens from the universe, it's going to feel even worse. So I think we need to kind of really be aware there are lots of people out there who are terrified of good things happening even though they say they desperately want good things to happen.
然后她会自我破坏。就像我会说，你不能解雇我，我自己辞职，对吧？就像我要主动让坏事发生在自己身上一样，因为如果这些坏事是外界造成的，那感觉会更糟。所以我认为我们需要意识到，有很多人其实对好事的发生感到害怕，尽管他们口口声声说非常渴望好事发生。
And so they make bad things happen or they make sure good things don't happen to them because it feels so uncomfortable to sit in that space of the other she's going to drop at any moment and I can't deal with that. But the other thing I want to say about this, this slow burn type of thing is there was a study that was done that I wrote about in one of my books where they did a longitudinal study and they looked at people over 20 years and they followed up with them every five years from the first date to where they are later.
因此，他们要么让不好的事情发生，要么确保好事不会降临到自己头上，因为坐在那种随时可能出现坏结果的不安之中实在太难受了。关于这种缓慢燃烧的情况，我还想补充一点：在我写的一本书中提到过一项研究，这是一项纵向研究，研究人员对一组人进行了为期20年的跟踪调查，从首次约会开始，每隔五年进行一次回访，观察他们之后的人生轨迹。
And they had them instead of like historically saying, you know, when you ask people in relationships and you say, what was it like when you first met and they'll tell you some story, but it's retrospective. It's not like you weren't there at the time, you're sort of telling it through the lens of where you are now. What was great about this study was people wrote down at the time. Here's what, here's how I feel. So people who were, let's say, got married and were happy would say almost unilaterally. Like there was so much chemistry, we had such a good time on the first date. It was amazing. Whereas at the time they said, like, yeah, it was okay. Maybe I'll see this person again fine, like no butterflies or whatever, but that's not the story they're telling themselves about it.
在一项研究中，他们没有采用传统的方式，比如在询问恋爱中的人们时，会让他们去回忆第一次见面时的情景，他们通常会讲述一个回顾性的故事。而这些故事往往是通过他们当前的视角来讲述的，而不是当下的真实感受。这个研究特别的地方在于，人们在当时就记录下了自己的感受。比如，那些后来结婚并幸福的人们可能会不约而同地说，他们第一次约会时有很强的化学反应，度过了非常愉快的时光，觉得很棒。然而，当时他们其实可能只是觉得还不错，或许会再见面，也没有什么特别心动的感觉。但这并不是他们现在对当时情景的叙述。
Now people who either are unhappily together or no longer together would say, yeah, there was nothing there. There was no chemistry. I didn't really like the person, but at the time they said, like, wow, I'm really interested in this person. It was like, we had so much chemistry. So we change our stories based on our present experience. And we think we're telling an accurate version of what actually happened. And the reason I bring this up is because since people who are sort of happy couples tell these stories to other people, we think in our culture that if you go on a first date and you don't have that immediate spark that it's not worth it, like don't go on a second date.
现在，那些关系不幸福或已经分开的情侣可能会说：“是的，彼此之间毫无感觉，没有化学反应。我其实并不喜欢那个人。”但在当时，他们却认为：“哇，我真的对这个人很感兴趣，我们之间有很强的化学反应。”我们根据现状改变自己的故事，并且认为自己讲述的是事情的真相。我提到这一点是因为，快乐的情侣往往会把这些故事讲给别人听，于是我们的文化中就形成了一种观念：如果第一次约会没有“火花”，那就不值得继续，不必再约第二次会。
And what happens is sometimes a lot of the time when you have that immediate spark, it doesn't mean what you think it means. It's not that a spark is bad. It means that you really need to see what it means. And it's not that not having a spark is bad. If you go on a date and you feel like I, it was a like nice conversation and I had a good enough time, go spend another hour with this person. Just go on another date with them and see what happens. But we don't do that because we have the solution that you can just go back on an app where there's so many people out there. And so we try to optimize as opposed to saying, what would it be like? I had a, I felt good when I was with this person. I didn't feel that rush, but I felt pretty good.
有时候，当你在初次见面时产生火花时，可能并不是你想象中的那样，并不一定说明这种火花不好，而是你需要弄清楚它真正意味着什么。同样，没有火花也不是坏事。如果你去约会，觉得交谈愉快，度过了不错的时光，那就再花点时间和这个人相处，约个会看看会发生什么。但我们往往不这样做，因为我们觉得可以随时回到社交软件上，在那里有很多可以选择的人。因此，我们总是想要寻找更优的选择，而不是停下来想一想，如果和这个人在一起时感觉不错，虽然没有那种心跳加速的感觉，但整体感觉很好，那会怎么样呢？
So I think I'll go see what that's like again. And that should be our bar. Not like, do I feel this rush? Do I feel like this is amazing? But did I have a good enough time? Sure, let me go see what that's like. Yeah, one certainly wouldn't want to be bored in somebody else's presence. But calm seems like a good touch point. Yes. To look for as opposed to this activation state. You know, I, I, maybe it's the neurobiologist in me and I'm guilty of also working on this autonomic arousal thing for so many years. This seesaw in us of being like up states that can either be stress or bliss and down states, which can either be depression and fatigue or can just be like pleasant relaxation.
所以我想我会去再次体验一下那是什么感觉。这应该是我们的标准。不是说我是否感到兴奋，或者觉得这个事情有多棒，而是我是否过得不错。好，那我就去看看那是什么样子。当然，没人愿意在别人的陪伴下感到无聊，但平静似乎是一个不错的参照点。是的，这种平静的状态比起激动似乎更值得追求。可能是因为我有神经生物学家的背景，我也承认自己多年来一直在研究这个自主神经激发的东西。在我们体内，这种状态的跷跷板，一边是上升状态，可以是压力或极乐；另一边是下降状态，可以是抑郁和疲劳，也可以是舒适的放松。
Like the label becomes critical, right? Alert and stress versus alert and elated is very different level of alertness to very different things. Same, you know, depressed versus peaceful when relax at, you know, and looking for or trying to figure out what sorts of interactions bring about that that kind of even seesaw might be best, not one or the other, maybe a little airing even a little bit more towards peace. Yes. And when I see couples who come in and they've been married for a long time now and they say, you know, well, I'll say the what is the origin story? How did you meet? What was that like? What were you attracted to in the other person?
就像标签变得很重要，对吧？"警觉和紧张"与"警觉和兴奋"是完全不同的层次，针对的事情也完全不同。同样地，当你放松时，"沮丧"与"平和"也截然不同。找出是什么样的互动导致这种平衡可能是最好的选择，不是非此即彼，而是倾向于更多的平和。是的。当我看到那些已经结婚很长时间的夫妻来咨询时，我会问他们的相识故事：你们是怎么认识的？那时候感觉如何？你被对方哪一点吸引？
And so often I'll hear words like it was so exciting. I found this person so excited. And it's like, that's the very thing that what you thought was excitement was actually volatility or was actually sort of anxiety as opposed to that sense of you can be calm and feel excited about the other person. So we're talking about a neurological state, right? Your nervous system. And then we're talking about your interpretation of what that means. So sometimes calmness is exciting. Sometimes excitement is anxiety provoking. And so you have to be able to tell the difference between the two. I'll just say yes and yes to both those statements.
经常我会听到有人说，事情太令人兴奋了。我觉得这个人很激动。这种感觉就像，你认为的兴奋实际上可能是波动或者有点焦虑，而不是那种可以在平静中感到对对方兴奋的感觉。所以，我们其实是在谈论一种神经状态，也就是你的神经系统。此外，我们还在讨论你如何解读这种状态的意义。所以有时候，平静本身就是一种兴奋，而有时候所谓的兴奋其实是让人焦虑的。因此，你需要能够区分这两者之间的区别。对此，我的回答是“是，也对”这两种说法都成立。
I think peace is it's not everything, but it's it's necessary, but not sufficient as we say. If I may, I'd like to get kind of a little deep in abstract along this dimension of why people are so much more willing to stay in a state that doesn't feel good versus risk, the unknown and the opportunity to win in relationship in life, in career, et cetera. Because I do believe that. I happen to be reading, it's a hard book, a genuinely difficult book, but I'm really enjoying it. I'm reading Ernst Becker's The Denial of Death. I highly recommend it to everyone. One of Pulitzer, after all, you don't need my endorsement.
我认为和平并不是一切，但它是必要的，尽管不一定足够。请允许我深入一点，探讨一下为什么人们更愿意停留在一种让人不舒服的状态，而不是冒险去尝试未知的机会，无论是在关系、生活还是职业等方面的成功。我确实相信这一点。最近我在读一本书——恩斯特·贝克尔的《否认死亡》。这本书相当难懂，但我非常喜欢。我强烈推荐给大家。这本书毕竟获得了普利策奖，不需要我的推荐。
And you know, I mean the central thesis of the book, right, is that we're a weird species because we understand that we're going to die at some point. We're all going to die. And that the that humans go through these very complicated gymnastics related to ego and symbols and we create notions of meaning and story to try and distract us basically from this really scary reality. It's terrifying, right? It's terrifying. Nobody really understands or knows what happens next. We can't be sure.
你知道，这本书的核心观点就是，我们是一种奇怪的物种，因为我们意识到自己终有一天会死去。我们都会死。而且，人类会进行非常复杂的心理活动，与自我和符号相关，我们创造各种意义和故事的观念，基本上是为了转移对这个可怕现实的注意力。这很可怕，对吧？非常可怕。没有人真正理解或知道接下来会发生什么，我们无法确定。
And I have this idea in mind, as you're telling me, that indeed people are willing to stay in a set of circumstances that don't work for them, even ruminating on the mistakes that got them there for a very long time, willingly, when all they need to do is make some new choices that they're fully capable of making. And I wonder whether or not it's because they're alive now. They know they're quote unquote safe now. Like they're not dead. I mean, the number of people I know who stayed in circumstances that didn't work for them for so long, professionally, relationally. It's like, how do they do that?
我想到一个想法，就像你告诉我的那样，人们确实愿意在对他们不利的环境中停留很长时间，甚至长久地反思让他们陷入这种境地的错误，而他们所需要做的只是做出一些他们完全有能力做出的新选择。我就在想，这是不是因为他们现在活着，所以觉得所谓的“安全”，毕竟他们没有死。我认识很多人，他们在不适合自己的情况下停留了很久，不论是工作上还是关系上。我在想，他们是怎么做到的呢？
And I understand sometimes there's kids sometimes there's financial issues, but there's it's always the case that they've eventually gotten out, thank goodness. And they always say, I wish I had done it so much earlier. And I wonder whether or not, as a biological and psychological being, we do this because we're thinking, well, I'm alive now, I'm breathing now. I'm quote unquote safe now. But I don't know what's going to happen if I make this other choice.
我明白，有时候是因为孩子，有时候是因为经济问题，但最终他们总是能走出来，谢天谢地。而且他们总是说，真希望自己能早点这么做。我在想，作为一个生物和心理上的个体，我们是否这么做是因为我们在想，现在我活着，现在我还在呼吸，现在我“相对安全”。但是如果我做出其他选择，不知道会发生什么。
Like it defies logic, but at the same time, if one just assumes that our like our biggest fear deep down and our unconscious is fear of death, we'll pretty much stay anywhere where we're continuing to be alive and not like in the moment of fearing death. I'm sorry to get a little philosophical here, but I think this unconscious thing, well, we make a lot has been made of it. The word means, okay, well, we don't, it's happening, but we don't know what's happening, but like, what are we really afraid of?
就像它违背了逻辑，但同时，如果我们假设我们内心深处最大的恐惧是对死亡的恐惧，我们基本上会待在任何我们能活着而不感受到死亡恐惧的地方。对不起，我有点哲学化了，但我认为这个无意识的东西，我们讨论了很多。这个词的意思是，好吧，它在发生，但我们不知道它在发生，那么我们真正害怕的到底是什么呢？
And I do think ultimately we're all just really afraid of death. I don't think we're afraid of death. I think we're afraid of not having lived. So what I mean by that is I think we deny death. We're all sort of death deniers like we know it's out there somewhere, but we don't know when or how it's going to happen. And so we just pretend because there's no real, no pun intended, but deadline, right? And so we just think sort of we know intellectually we don't have forever, but we kind of think we do.
我确实认为，最终我们都只是非常害怕死亡。我不认为我们害怕死亡，我觉得我们害怕的是没有真正活过。我的意思是，我们在某种程度上是在否认死亡。我们都像是死亡的否认者，虽然我们知道死亡在那里，但我们不知道它什么时候或以何种方式会发生。所以我们就假装它不存在，因为没有一个明确的截止日期。（这句话没有双关的意思，对吧？）我们在理智上知道生命不是永恒的，但在内心深处，我们总是觉得自己还有很多时间。
And so when you think about sort of the stages of psychosocial development, you know, you start with, you know, these these conflicts that you have to work through at every stage of life and sort of the one where your sort of last stage is integrity versus despair. So integrity is if you have lived a life where you don't have a lot of regret, you feel like you lived the kind of life that you wanted, you accomplish the things that you wanted to accomplish for the most part, whether that's relationally, professionally used in combination there, you you have a sense of integrity at the end of your life.
当我们思考心理社会发展阶段时，每个生命阶段都会面临一些需要解决的冲突。其中，人生的最后一个阶段是完整性与绝望之间的对抗。如果你认为自己过上了没有太多遗憾的生活，实现了大部分自己想要完成的事情，无论是人际关系上还是职业发展上，你在生命的尽头就会有一种完整感。
If you didn't, you have this sense of despair. People who work through that and have integrity are not afraid of death. The people who are in despair are very afraid of death because they have so many regrets and they can't go back, you don't get a redo. And so I like to in psychotherapy really remind people that they need to keep death awareness sitting on one shoulder not to be morbid, but to actually make you live more fully.
如果你没有做到这一点，你会感到绝望。那些努力度过难关并保持正直的人不怕死亡。而那些绝望的人非常害怕死亡，因为他们有太多的遗憾，而无法回到过去，事情也无法重来。所以我在心理治疗中喜欢提醒人们要始终记住死亡的存在，不是为了让人感到阴郁，而是为了让生活过得更加充实。
If you are aware of death, if you really look death right in the eye, you have more intentionality when you wake up every day. You say, I don't have forever. So it's not like some time in the future, I might die. It's like you could die today tomorrow. You know, anything could happen.
如果你意识到死亡，如果你真的直视死亡你的眼睛, 你每天醒来时就会更有目标。你会说，我的时间不是无限的。所以不是未来某个时候我可能会死，而是今天或者明天都有可能。你知道，任何事情都可能发生。
And I think, you know, when I saw right about this in my book where I was seeing this woman who was in her early 30s and she was diagnosed with cancer and everyone thought she was going to be fine and then there was this sort of rare recurrence. And when she was newly married and her whole life was like turned upside down and she really made me as the therapist look death in the eye in that way.
在我的书中，我写到了这样一个故事：我见到了一位三十出头的女性，她被诊断出患有癌症。起初，大家都认为她会康复，但是后来病情罕见地复发了。在她新婚之际，她的整个生活被彻底颠覆。作为她的治疗师，她让我切身体会到了什么是直面死亡。
You know how like you want to say something like, you know, she was talking about the things that people would say to her because we all have this death denial and they would say, did you get a second opinion as if no, she's not going to get a second opinion about whether she's going to die, right? You know, they'll say things like, well, these experimental treatments might work, you know, anything to deny the reality that she was going to die and very soon.
你知道的，有时候你想表达一些事情，比如她提到人们对她说的话，因为我们都有一种对死亡的否认心理。人们会问她：“你有没有去找其他医生再看看？”仿佛她不会去再确认一下自己是否真的会死，对吧？他们还会说些诸如“这些实验性治疗可能有效”之类的话，用任何方式来否认她即将面临的现实。
And nobody wanted to sit with her in that. And it was my job to do that even her husband had had trouble sort of sitting with her in that in the beginning, right? And there was this one moment, this beautiful moment between them that she came in and told me about where he was like, you know, doing something and trying to relax and he was a great, like incredibly supportive of her. And she came in and said, hey, there's this thing and I read about this and I want to talk to you about this. And he said, like, can't we just have one night off from cancer? And she said, I don't get any nights off from cancer. There's no nights off, right? And I understand both perspectives on that, but it brought up this beautiful conversation between them that really helped them to think about how much do we let death in and how much do we let sort of life for whatever's left in and how do we let death inform the aliveness that we still have?
没有人愿意陪她面对那些。即使是她的丈夫，一开始也很难去陪伴她。而我的工作就是陪她度过这些难关。有一次，她告诉我他们之间发生了一个美好的瞬间。当时，他正在做些事情，想放松一下。他非常支持她。她走过来对他说，她有一些想法和信息想和他聊聊。他回应说：“我们能不能至少有一个晚上不谈癌症？”她回答：“我没有一个晚上能不去面对癌症。”我理解他们每个人的看法，但这个对话促使他们深入思考，应该如何在生活中面对死亡，以及如何在有限的生命里仍然充满活力。这个交流让他们明白，死亡的存在也可以提醒我们要珍惜仍有的生命力。
So I think it's really important that, you know, when why do people stay in relationships too long? Why did they stay in jobs too long? Why did they make choices that are not serving them and that they will later regret? It's because they are in full-blown death denial. And I think when people really acknowledge their mortality, it's one of the most healthy, invigorating things that they can bring into their lives. When people say, what is the opposite of depression? It's not happiness. It's vitality. And where do we get vitality from knowing that we have a limited time here? And we get to choose how we spend it. I agree 100%. This is something I think about constantly, although I've never looked at it through the lens that you just presented it.
我认为，我们真的需要认真思考，为什么有些人会在关系里停留得太久？为什么会在工作中停留得太久？为什么会做出对自己没有好处且将来会后悔的选择？这是因为他们完全在否认死亡的存在。而我认为，当人们真正承认自己的生命有限时，这会成为他们生活中最健康和充满活力的一件事。当人们问，抑郁症的反面是什么？不是幸福，而是活力。我们从哪里得到活力？是从认识到我们在这世界上的时间是有限的，而我们有权选择如何度过它。我完全同意这一点，我一直在思考这个问题，尽管我以前从未用你刚才提到的角度来看待它。
And I love what I just learned from you, which is that vitality is the state of being. Vitality is so key. I think about death probably more than I should. Because for a kid who wasn't from the inner city or in the military, I've just had a lot of friends die, a lot of suicides, a lot of drug stuff, unfortunately, and all three of my scientific advisors, suicide cancer, cancer. I was very close with all of them. And I only got to say goodbye to the second one. That was a rough conversation. Anyone that's ever had a conversation with somebody where it's a goodbye conversation. I had to do that like this is it. And it was brutal, but I'm, you know, I don't want to well up.
我非常喜欢刚刚从你那里学到的东西，那就是生命力是一种存在的状态。生命力非常重要。我可能比正常人更常思考死亡。因为虽然我不是来自内城或军队，但我有很多朋友去世了，其中不少是自杀或与毒品有关的问题。不幸的是，我的三位科学顾问中有两位因癌症去世，一位是自杀，我与他们都很亲近。我只来得及和第二位道别，那次谈话非常艰难。和即将永别的人谈话，这样的经历真的很痛苦。那次道别式的谈话太残酷了，我不想再流泪。
I've cried before in this podcast. I don't feel like doing it today. I don't have a problem crying from time to time on camera, but I don't want the plot line here to shift too much. But I started after that conversation to adopt a practice. I do this yoga non-sleep deep resting every day for about 10 to 30 minutes. And there's this moment right at the beginning. I was supposed to take a deep breath and then a long exhale to relax your body and then you go into listening to the script. And ever since that conversation, I've insisted on doing that. And as I do it, I remind myself, this is if I'm awake, or if it's not an accident that happens very fast, this is probably what it's going to feel like to die.
在这个播客里，我以前曾经哭过。但今天我不想这样。我并不介意偶尔在镜头前流泪，但我希望节目的重心不要改变太多。在那次谈话之后，我开始养成一个习惯。我每天都会做10到30分钟的冥想瑜伽。在开始的时候，我会先深吸一口气，然后慢慢呼出，让身体放松，随后听着引导词进入冥想状态。从那次谈话之后，我就坚持这么做。当我这样做时，我提醒自己，如果我能保持清醒，这可能就是死亡时的感觉，不是意外发生的快速瞬间，而是一种宁静的体验。
And so just trying to like, I'm sorry, I like this idea of readying myself for death every day. As a means to access what you're talking about, which is trying to live better. Right. Again, not to be more, but just try to, like, yes, I'm like a biological vessel at some point. My body, my brain, or both will just give out. Well, bullet bus or cancers, that kind of what I always say, something will take me out. And there'll be this final. And that's it. And the closer that I feel like that we can get to that understanding and be like, okay, super scary. And I'm not there now.
抱歉，我喜欢每天准备面对死亡这种想法。这样可以帮助我理解你所说的——试图更好地生活。不是为了变得更多，而是尝试意识到，我是一个生物体，总有一天我的身体或大脑，或者两者都会失去功能。可能是意外、疾病，或者其他原因。我常说，总有某种东西会终结我的生命，那就是最终的结局。我们越能接近这种理解，就越能坦然面对尽管这很可怕，但我现在还没有到那个时候。
So I'm going to go back into the world and do the best I can. And it doesn't have to be scary. It sounds like you're aiming toward an acceptance of death, which is I think the way that we get motivated to live. So it's not fear of death. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I don't think we should be afraid of death. I think we should say we get this precious time. However long we get, everybody gets their own amount of time on, you know, in this life. And so it's an acceptance of that. It's not a fear of that.
所以，我打算重新回到这个世界，尽我所能地去生活。这并不需要感到害怕。听起来你在努力接受死亡，我认为这正是我们获得生活动力的方式。所以这不是对死亡的恐惧，我完全不是在建议这个。我认为我们不应该害怕死亡，而应该认识到我们拥有这段宝贵的时间。无论时间长短，每个人在这个人生中都有自己的一段时间。这是一种接受，而不是一种恐惧。
And I think about how when people are afraid of death, they do things that are counterproductive. Like a lot of affairs happen in the wake of a death. So a parent dies. And somebody then feels like, oh, I don't have a lot of time left. Am I really happy in this relationship? Am I really alive? Am I really living? And then they go and do something like have an affair because they want that sense of vitality because they're doing it out of fear, not out of, oh, I accept that death is a part of our existence. And if I'm not feeling alive, is it because of my relationship or my marriage or is it because I am not actively doing things in my life to create that sense of vitality?
我想到，当人们害怕死亡时，他们往往会做一些适得其反的事情。比如在经历了亲人去世之后，很多人会发生婚外情。比如，一位父母去世后，有人就会开始觉得，哎呀，我剩下的时间不多了。我在这段关系中真的快乐吗？我真的活着吗？我真的在生活吗？于是，他们就去选择搞婚外情，因为他们想要感受到那种生命力。不过他们这样做是出于恐惧，而不是因为接受死亡是我们生命的一部分。如果我没有感受到充实和活力，那是因为我的关系或者婚姻的问题吗？还是因为我没有积极地去做一些事情来创造那种生命力呢？
So very often in the wake of some kind of brush with death, like some kind of closeness, like maybe you had a brush with death or maybe a parent died or someone close to you died or a friend or a sibling. So often people act out and they do these things to create this sense of, I'm alive. As opposed to saying, wait, what do I need to look at in my life that will make me feel more alive that is not self-sabotaging?
在经历过一些生死攸关的时刻后，比如你自己险些丧命，或者父母、亲近的人、朋友或兄弟姐妹去世了，人们常常会表现出一些行为来证明自己还活着。他们可能做出一些事来增强自己的存在感。然而，相比之下，我们更应该问自己：我需要在生活中注意什么，才能让自己感觉更有活力，而不是做出那些有害自己的事呢？
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012 long before I even knew what a podcast was. I started taking it and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.
我想休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商AG1。AG1是一种含有维生素、矿物质和益生菌的饮料，还含有适应原。我早在2012年就开始喝AG1，那时候我甚至还不知道什么是播客。我从那时开始每天都喝AG1，因为它能确保我每天摄取足够的维生素和矿物质，并帮助我获取足够的益生元和益生菌来支持肠道健康。
Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function. Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake, but there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods.
在过去的10年里，人们逐渐意识到肠道健康不仅对消化系统有重要影响，同时也对免疫系统以及多巴胺和血清素等神经递质和神经调节剂的生成至关重要。换句话说，肠道健康对大脑的正常功能是非常关键的。当然，我尽量通过未加工的健康食物来满足大部分营养摄入，但AG1中的一些特定微量营养素是很难或几乎不可能从全食物中获得的。
So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1 because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.
每天服用AG1，我就能摄取到所需的维生素和矿物质，还包括促进肠道健康的益生菌和益生元，从而有利于大脑和免疫系统的健康。此外，AG1还含有适应原和对身体所有器官和组织必需的重要微量营养素。因此，如果有人问我如果只能选择一种保健品，应该选什么，我总是推荐AG1，因为AG1支持大脑和身体的多种系统，有助于我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash huberman. For this month only April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before in this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production, and much more.
如果你想试试AG1，你可以访问drinkag1.com斜杠huberman。仅在2025年4月这个月，AG1会免费赠送一个月的omega-3鱼油，还有一瓶包含维生素D3和K2的补充品。我之前在这个播客中提到过，omega-3鱼油和维生素D3与K2在提升情绪和脑部健康、改善心脏健康、促进健康的荷尔蒙生成等方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com slash huberman to get the free one month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories and 0 grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein and 75 percent of its calories come from protein. This is 50 percent higher than the next closest protein bar.
再次访问 drinkag1.com/huberman，可以免费获得一个月的Omega-3鱼油补给包，以及一瓶维生素D3加K2，只需订阅即可。今天的节目还由David赞助。David生产的蛋白质棒与众不同，包含28克蛋白质，仅150卡路里，并且不含糖。没错，28克蛋白质，其卡路里中有75%来自蛋白质。这比市面上其他蛋白质棒高出50%。
David protein bars also taste amazing, even the texture is amazing. My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavored. Basically, I like all the flavors a lot. They're all incredibly delicious. In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat on which days and how many times per day. I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.
David家的蛋白棒味道非常棒，口感也很好。我最喜欢的是巧克力曲奇味，但我也很喜欢新出的巧克力花生酱味和巧克力布朗尼味。基本上，我对每种口味都非常喜欢，简直美味至极。事实上，最难以抉择的是每天吃哪种味道以及每天吃几次。我给自己定的限制是每天最多吃两根，但我实在是太爱它们了。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories. I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling. They're incredibly delicious and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.
有了大卫蛋白棒，我能在摄入少量热量的情况下获得28克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重摄入一克蛋白质的目标。而且，这样我就不会摄入太多热量。大多数下午，我都会吃一根大卫蛋白棒作为零食，并且每次出门或旅行时，我都会带上一根。它们味道特别好，一根只含150卡路里却能提供28克蛋白质，真的非常让人满足。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to Davidprotein.com slash huberman. Again, that's Davidprotein.com slash huberman. So much to go into here. This thing about vitality is so key. A friend recently said to me something, he was talking about how gosh, there's like these certain interactions in life that are like, I feel like they like pull me in.
如果你想尝试David，你可以访问Davidprotein.com斜杠huberman。再次强调，是Davidprotein.com斜杠huberman。关于这里的内容有很多可以探讨的地方。关于活力这个话题真的很重要。我有个朋友最近和我说，有些生活中的互动让他觉得像是被吸引进去了一样。
I don't like them. And then it just like really takes away from what I know I should be doing. And he said, you know, you have to do things that energize you. And immediately I thought, yes, and be very careful about the things that activate. Like there's this difference between activation and being activated versus being energized. I mean, it's a little bit semantic, right?
我不喜欢他们。这让我无法专注于我应该做的事情。他跟我说，你需要做让你充满活力的事情。然后我立刻想到，是的，要小心那些“激活”你的事物。这种“激活”和“充满活力”是有区别的。我觉得这个区别虽然有点语义上的，但很重要。
But I feel like something that energizes me is like, I love cephalopods. I used to have cuttlefish in my lab. I love octopuses. And by the way, it's octopuses is the plural folks. Not octopi. We go into a whole thing here, but I won't. And you know, looking at one of those guys, or gals, solving a puzzle, they just energizes me.
我觉得让我感到充满活力的事情之一就是我喜欢头足类动物。我过去在实验室里养过乌贼，我还特别喜欢章鱼。顺便说一下，复数形式是“octopuses”而不是“octopi”。虽然关于这个问题可以讲很久，但这里就不展开了。看到那些章鱼解决难题，真的让我感到充满活力。
In a way, I feel it in my body. It's energy that I can use for other things. It's, you know, it's like an inspiration for me. And there are many other things that do that. And then there are things that activate us, like where we, it's like a stress response. It's a rousal, but it's negative ailments. Right. It's draining. It's like pulling and it's taking from these things that energize us. And I feel like it's being able to notice those subtleties is hard in real time. And, but I feel like vitality is about the things that energize us. Right. And so when you talk about that draining kind of activation, sometimes what we do when that happens is we go numb. Right. So we don't want to feel anything. So, you know, there's this great expression that the like scrolling through the internet when people mindlessly do that.
在某种程度上，我能在身体里感受到它。这是一种能量，我可以用在其他事情上。你知道的，这对我来说就像是一种灵感。而且，还有许多其他事情也能带来这样的感受。同时，也有些事情会激活我们，比如某种压力反应。这是一种唤醒，但却是负面的。这种负面状态是令人疲惫的，就像在消耗我们的活力。我觉得要实时察觉这些细微差别是很困难的，但我认为活力关乎于那些能给我们带来能量的事情。当你谈论那些让人感到疲惫的激活时，有时候我们的反应是变得麻木。我们不想感受任何事情。就像有一个很有趣的表达，描述那些无意识地刷网页的人。
It's a colleague of mine said, it's the most effective non-prescription pain killer out there. Can you repeat that because I want people to understand this? So yeah, so it's the most effective non-prescription pain killer out there. Right. And so it's interesting when you think about numbness because people think that numbness is the absence of feelings. But actually numbness is the sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings. And so you're shutting down. So when people say, oh, I'm numb, I'm not feeling anything. Actually, you're feeling so much and you're feeling flooded. You're feeling overwhelmed. And so we need to figure out what are you feeling?
我有一个同事说，这是一种最有效的非处方止痛药。你能重复一下吗？因为我想让大家明白这一点。是的，它是最有效的非处方止痛药。因此，当你想到麻木的时候，这很有趣，因为人们通常认为麻木是没有感觉。实际上，麻木是因为感受到太多情绪而让自己不堪重负。所以当人们说：“哦，我很麻木，我没有感觉。”其实是因为你感觉到太多，让自己感到不知所措。因此，我们需要弄清楚你到底在感觉什么。
So it's actually a state of a rousal that you can't handle. And so then you're shutting down, but it's not that you're not having feelings. You're having so many feelings that you can't tolerate it. And that is not, you know, that is not the, you know, people say, oh, I'm feeling numb, I'm feeling nothing. No, we need to figure out what is so overwhelming to your nervous system right now. That got so important. I hope people will listen to that a hundred times because, you know, we've heard so much about dopamine hits that I think people have lost side to the fact that when you're online and you're just a wash in all this information and videos, you're, you're not getting those hits. You're in the post dopamine hit trough. And we've been there for a long period of time unless we, you know, unless we're judicious about our use of social media an hour or three minutes or 15 minutes, whatever it is.
这实际上是一种你无法处理的激动状态。所以你开始关闭情感，但这不是因为你没有感觉，而是因为你有太多的感觉，无法忍受。这与人们常说的“我感觉麻木”或“我没有感觉”不同。我们需要弄清楚究竟是什么让你的神经系统如此不堪重负。这一点非常重要。我希望人们能反复认真思考这点，因为我们常听到关于多巴胺刺激的说法，我认为这使人们忽视了这样一个事实：当你上网，被各种信息和视频包围时，你并没有获得多巴胺刺激，而是处于多巴胺刺激后的低谷期。除非我们谨慎使用社交媒体，无论是一小时、三分钟还是十五分钟，否则我们已经在这种状态下停留了很长时间。
But hours upon hours, there's no dopamine hit anymore. The peak is gone. You're in the trough. And that's why it feels kind of like, how did all that time go by? The importance of this really can't be overstated. I, I think that we hear so much about fight or flight and the stress response that I think people forget that another component of the stress response of drama of, of, you know, being a wash in all this information and like movies and politics and violence and sex and all that stuff coming at us at once as we just scroll our thumbs is this thing of brachycardia. You know, there's this phenomenon where when we're stressed our heart rate actually slows down. And that's the kind of the kind of numbing and you just kind of, you're just kind of blanking out.
但是，经过几个小时的持续刺激，已经没有多巴胺带来的兴奋感了。高潮已过，你进入了低谷。这就是为什么你会觉得时间怎么一下就过去了。这一点的重要性不容小觑。我认为我们听到太多关于“战或逃”反应和压力反应的讨论，以至于人们往往忽略了压力反应的另一个组成部分。当我们不断刷手机时，各种信息、电影、政治、暴力和情色内容同时涌入，这会导致一种心动过缓的现象。也就是说，当我们感到压力时，心跳反而会变慢。这就是一种麻木感，你感到有些精神空白。
And I think that's a lot of what people are starting to experience with a lot of high drama input. Yeah, I see that in couples a lot where they come in and one person is saying, you know, like, I feel nothing. I don't know what this other person's so upset about, right? And then when you really get into it, it's like this person's feeling all kinds of things. And it's really important that we understand, you know, when we are shut down versus when we are calm. Those are two very different states. Could you go into that a little bit further? Yeah, well, here's an example. So a couple comes in. Let's say it's a heterosexual couple, but it could be any couple. Often it is the woman in the couple who will say something to her partner.
我觉得现在很多人都在经历这种高压戏剧性的情感体验。我常常看到这样的情况，尤其是在情侣中。一方可能会说：“我感觉不到什么，我不知道对方为什么这么生气。”但深入了解后，会发现这个人其实在体验各种各样的情感。理解我们什么时候是关闭状态，什么时候是冷静状态，这非常重要，这两者是完全不同的状态。可以详细说说这个问题吗？好的，举个例子。一对情侣来看咨询，假设是异性情侣，但可以是任何组合。通常情况下，是女性会对她的伴侣说些什么。
Like, I just feel like I can't reach you. I feel like we're very disconnected. I want you to tell me how you feel. And because of our cultural stigma around Ben showing emotion, he has told himself, like, yeah, this bothers me or that bothers me or I'm unhappy in this way, but I don't feel anything. I'm fine. Our mayor is just good. So he doesn't even understand why he's there. And he thinks he's there for her because she insisted on it. And so when we finally get to maybe something that he's feeling and he finally does open up, it's so interesting because maybe he's sharing something very vulnerable or maybe he tears up a little bit so that you can tell like your body will tell you what you're feeling.
我感觉好像无法接近你，我们之间很疏远。我希望你能告诉我你的感受。由于我们文化中对男性表达情感的偏见，Ben 告诉自己，这件事让我烦恼，或者那件事让我不开心，但我其实什么都没感觉，我很好。我们的市长也很好。因此，他甚至不明白自己为什么会在这里，他觉得是因为她的坚持才来的。所以当我们终于触及到他的感受，他终于开始敞开心扉时，这很有意思。因为他可能在分享一些非常脆弱的想法，或者他可能有些哽咽，这样你就能知道，其实你的身体会告诉你自己的感受。
Even if you aren't aware of it, you see, okay, there's some moisture there in his eyes or maybe a tear falls or maybe he actually starts crying. And her reaction and her whole reason for bringing him in was, you know, I need you to open up to me. I want to feel connected to you. I want to understand your inner life more. Well, he does it. And she then looks at me like a deer in headlights like, oh wow, I don't feel safe when he doesn't open up to me, but I also don't feel safe when he's being vulnerable in this way. And these are sort of gender stereotypes that we think we might not fall prey to, but we do.
即使你没有意识到，你注意到他眼中有些湿润，也许有泪水流下，甚至他真的开始哭了。而她的反应，以及她带他来的全部理由，是因为她希望他能向她敞开心扉。她想感受到与他的联系，想更了解他的内心世界。他这样做了。但是她却像受惊的鹿一样看着我，就好像在说：哇，当他不向我敞开心扉时，我感到不安全，而当他以这种方式表现出脆弱时，我也感到不安全。这些都是我们以为自己不会陷入的性别刻板印象，但我们确实会受到影响。
And so it's so interesting that often men are the ones who seem sort of numb or calm, right, which are two again, very different things in the relationship. But that's not really the case. It's that there's no room for him to express anything. So he has to kind of push everything down probably again outside of his awareness. And then the couple feels disconnected in both of them are unhappy. This idea that more words means more emotional. I don't buy it.
很有意思的一点是，在关系中，常常是男性看起来有些麻木或冷静，对吧？然而，这两种状态其实是截然不同的。但事实并不是这样，而是因为他没有空间来表达自己的情感，所以他不得不在无意识中压抑自己的感受。结果是，这对伴侣之间产生疏离感，双方都感到不满。至于说话越多就意味着越情绪化，我并不认同。
Yeah, exactly. You know, it's interesting because men will come in if I'm seeing them alone, and they'll often say something like, I've never told anyone this before. And they literally mean I've never told anyone this before. Because when men hang out, they're not, it's not the same sort of level of let's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right? Women will come in and say something like, I've never told anyone this before except for my mother, my sister, my best friend. Right? So they've told maybe one, two or three people, but they feel like they haven't told anyone because for women, that's kind of not telling anyone.
是的，完全没错。这很有趣，因为当我单独和男性进行交流时，他们常常会说“我从未告诉过任何人这件事”。而且他们是真的从未告诉过其他人。因为男性在一起社交时，不会总是一直在聊，聊，聊。而女性来找我时，可能会说“我从来没有告诉过任何人这件事，除了我妈，我姐妹，我最好的朋友。”所以她们可能已经告诉了一两个人，但仍觉得自己没告诉过任何人。对于女性来说，这种程度的分享基本上等于没说出去。
Now you have people concerned. So if somebody, if a woman says to me, I didn't tell anyone, that means she only told four people. I don't mean secrets. I mean, like something about themselves where they feel maybe hesitant to share that, or they feel ashamed about that, or they're not sure about something. So you can see that difference. But I also think it happens very early. So I'm the mom of a boy. I mean, he's now a teenager, but it's interesting because when I didn't notice this till I was raising a boy, I grew up with a brother, but I didn't notice it that when he, let's say, he would like fall on the playground, right?
现在有些人感到担忧。如果有一个女人对我说，她没有告诉任何人，那通常意味着她其实告诉了四个人。我说的不是秘密，而是指那些她们对自己犹豫不决、不确定或感到羞愧的事情。你可以看出这种差异。我还认为这种情况发生得非常早。我是一位男孩的母亲。他现在是个青少年了。但有趣的是，当我养育一个男孩时，我才注意到这一点。我和一个兄弟一起长大，但没有注意到这一点。比如说，当他在操场上摔倒的时候，对这类事情的理解就变得不同了。
And like it, like two or three years old. Everybody would say to him or the boys around him, like, oh, it's fine. Brush it off. You're good. You're good, right? Even if he was like in pain, and if a girl falls and she's in pain, that is, they're like, oh, honey, come here. How are you? Let's see. How are you feeling about this? Are you hurt? Are you okay? So very early on, they get these messages like girls can talk about it. Boys can't talk about it. I remember when my son was, he was a basketball player and in high school.
就像这样，大概两三岁的时候。每当他或他周围的男孩受伤时，大家都会对他们说：“没关系，拍拍灰尘就好，继续吧，你没事的，对吧？” 即使他很痛，他们也会这么说。而如果一个女孩摔倒了，感到疼痛，人们就会说：“哦，亲爱的，过来一下。你怎么样？我们来看看。你感觉怎么样？你受伤了吗？你还好吗？” 所以很早的时候，他们就会接收到这样的信息：女孩可以表达自己的感受，而男孩却不能这样做。我记得我儿子上高中的时候，他是个篮球运动员。
And he had, or this was in actually middle school. And in a practice, he got, you know, pushed down and his arm was kind of like not right. And, you know, everyone was like, get back up. Just get it's fine. Well, his arm is like, hanging off, right? And so, you know, I was like, no, I think he needs to go to the ER. And of course, he was mortified that I said that, but in fact, he had broken his arm. So that's the difference. If a girl had fallen down and her arm was like that, people would say like, oh, why don't you get a checked out?
他当时在上中学。在一次练习中，他被推倒了，结果他的胳膊看起来有些不对劲。大家都对他说，快站起来，没事的。但事实上，他的胳膊几乎要掉下来了。于是我说，不，我觉得他需要去急诊室。当然，我这样说之后，他感到很尴尬，但事实上，他的胳膊真的骨折了。这就是区别。如果是一个女孩摔倒了，胳膊那样子的话，人们会说，哦，为什么不去检查一下呢？
So what happens when these people get into adult relationships? And this was what they were told about words and talking about things. You really see those differences. But the other thing I want to say about words is women are brought up to think that whenever you have a feeling, you should share it. And my response to that is no. So, and people say, what do you mean you're a therapist? What do you mean don't share your feelings? You don't need to share every thought or feeling that crosses your mind unfiltered with your partner.
那么，当这些人进入成年人的关系时会发生什么呢？这与他们之前被告诉的关于言辞和表达的内容有关。在这些方面，你会明显地看到差异。关于言辞，我还有一点想说，那就是女性从小被教导要在有感受时就分享它。而我的回应是，不一定总是如此。因此，当有人问：“你是个治疗师，你是什么意思？为什么不分享自己的感受呢？”我的意思是, 你没必要把每一个未经过滤的想法或感受都分享给伴侣。
That is not healthy communication. Healthy communication means we have filters. And we get to think about, and we call it mentalizing, how will what I'm about to say land on the other person? It's not like you're regurgitating all of your thoughts onto the other person. They're just supposed to deal with them. It's about relationally thinking, how will this person respond to that? Not like you have to take care of their feelings, but is it kind? Is it true? Is it useful? Does it meet those three criteria? And if it doesn't, why am I talking?
那不是健康的交流方式。健康的交流意味着我们要有过滤的过程。我们需要思考，这被称为心理化，我将要说的话会对对方产生什么影响？而不是把你所有的想法都倾倒给对方，让他们去应对。要从关系的角度考虑，对方会如何回应？这并不是说你必须照顾他们的感受，而是要问自己：这是否友善？是否真实？是否有用？如果不符合这三个标准，那我为什么要说这些？
Why am I sharing this? You said it, not me. But I'll wager a theory that I think that some people when they feel something, the kind of relief that comes from evacuating that feeling or trying to evacuate it with words, feels reflexively better to them than sitting with it internally. So I think people, when they feel an emotion, I think sometimes they feel like if they just talk about it or evacuate it, then it's like get rid of it. But they forget that it has an impact. Yes. And what you're talking about is projective identification.
为什么我要分享这个？这是你提的，不是我。但我有个理论，我认为有些人在感受到某种情绪时，通过表达或用语言释放这种情绪所带来的解脱感，会比一直压抑在心里更令人舒服。所以我认为，有时人们觉得只要把情绪说出来或释放出来，就像是把情绪处理掉了。然而，他们常常忘记这样做也是有影响的。是的，你所说的就是投射认同。
So it projection, right, is when you're feeling angry about something. Say you had like your boss did something to you at work and they upset you in some way or they were unkind and you're angry about or they are going to make you work all night and you're really pissed about that. So you're angry, so you come home and you end up yelling at your partner. So you're projecting, you're really mad at your boss. But all of a sudden you're like yelling at your partner, you're angry at that's projection, you're projecting one feeling about someone onto a different person that had nothing to do with the situation.
投射，是指你对某件事情感到生气的时候，比如说你的老板在工作中让你感到不满或对你不友好，或者他们让你通宵工作，这让你非常生气。于是你回到家，对伴侣大喊大叫。其实你是在把对老板的愤怒发泄到伴侣身上，这个过程称为投射。你把对某人的感受转移到另一个与此无关的人身上，这就是投射。
Projective identification is a psychological process where you actually insert your feeling into the other person. So you're angry about something that happened at work. It's not that you are now angry at your partner. It's that you make your partner angry. It's like a hot potato like you take your feelings and you toss them to someone else because you can't tolerate the discomfort of that feeling. So I don't want to deal with the feelings. So I'm going to say something to you that's going to make you angry, right? And now they have to hold all the anger. You feel great. You're fine because you're not holding the anger anymore. And now they're the ones who can't sleep. They're the ones who are upset.
投射性认同是一种心理过程，你会把自己的情感投射到他人身上。比如你因为工作上的事情感到愤怒，这时候，并不是你对你的伴侣生气，而是你让你的伴侣感到愤怒。这就像一个烫手山芋，你把自己的感受扔给别人，因为你无法忍受这种不适。所以，你不想面对自己的情绪，于是说些让对方生气的话，这样对方就需要承受所有的愤怒。而你自己感觉很好，因为你已经不再承受这些愤怒。现在是对方睡不着，是对方感到不安。
They're the ones who have to deal with what you couldn't tolerate. So again, we have to think about, you know, do we need to like why are we saying what we're saying? Can we be more intentional about how we communicate? Which doesn't mean you have to walk through a minefield. It just means that you have to be more aware of your feeling state and owning your feeling state and making sure that you aren't using other people in your environment to release your feeling state to something else that you need to learn how you can shift your own feeling state to one that feels better for you.
他们是那些必须处理你无法忍受事情的人。因此，我们需要再次思考，我们为什么要说这些话？我们能不能更有意图地进行沟通？这并不意味着你要如履薄冰，而是要更加了解自己的情绪状态，承认自己的情绪状态，并确保不通过别人来发泄自己的情绪。你需要学习如何将自己的情绪转变为让自己感觉更好的状态。
I love that. I um, I realized recently that thinking is something that we can practice. I for all the tools and protocols that you know, talked about on this podcast and elsewhere, you know, like physiological size and morning sunlight and working out and so into cardio and cold and all the things I realized recently, like spending five minutes just thinking about something and really trying to work through it linearly, like a like a challenge, like a life challenge is so valuable. And I didn't come up with this on my own. I now have a practice of like when something feels irritating or activating, I'll just like stop, put everything away and I just sit and think, like what's going on here?
我很喜欢这个。我最近意识到，思考其实是可以练习的。尽管我在这个播客和其他地方讨论过许多工具和方法，比如生理学现象、早晨阳光、健身、心肺锻炼、冷疗等，但我最近才意识到，花五分钟认真思考某件事，并尝试像解决生活中的挑战那样逐步理清它，是多么有价值。这并不是我自创的方法。我现在有一个习惯：当我感到烦躁或激动时，我会停下来，把所有事情放在一边，静静地坐下，想一想，这到底是怎么回事。
And inevitably there's some, like some growth and understanding at the end of that. But it's hard work, like to think like what's going on here? Am I activated because it's like true? Am I activated because it's false? Am I, you know, like having to sort all that, you may think, well, who has the time for this? But actually, I would argue you don't have the time to not do it. I think that's the difference between reacting and responding. So often what we do is we react to something and that's not process, not thought through.
最终，总会有一些成长和理解。但这确实是一件辛苦的事情，因为你需要思考：这里究竟发生了什么？我被触动是因为这是真的，还是假的？我是否需要理清这些思绪？你可能会想，谁有时间去做这些事情？但实际上，我认为你不能不去做。这就是反应和回应之间的区别。很多时候，我们对事情的反应是未经思考和处理的。
And again, it doesn't have to take like you're saying, it doesn't have to take a long time to just even count to five and breathe. And see, you know, because reacting, reacting means acting again. So you are normally when you're reacting and it's like that zero to 60, you're acting on something that happened in the past and you're layering it on to whatever's happening in the present. So you're having a big reaction to something. We like to say if it's historical, it's if it's hysterical, it's historical, meaning if you're and by hysterical, I mean, if you're having a big reaction, there's probably something from your past, some reaction that is visceral to you that you're having that is getting layered on to this current situation experience problem.
翻译：再说一次，就像你说的，这不一定会花很长时间，你只需要数到五就能呼吸。你知道，因为反应，反应的意思就是再次行动。所以，当你反应的时候，通常都是从零突然到六十，你是在对过去发生的事情作出反应，并把这种反应叠加到当前正在发生的事情上。所以你对某件事情有很大的反应。我们常说，如果反应很激烈，通常是因为有历史原因。这意思是，如果你对某件事情有剧烈反应，可能是因为你过去经历过类似的事情，这种内心的反应被叠加到了当前的情境、经历或问题上。
And you don't realize it. So that's reacting. You're acting again, you're acting on something that happened in the past. If it's hysterical, it's historical. Responding is I'm going to take a breath. I'm having a big reaction. I'm going to sit for a minute again, regulating your nervous system. And now I can kind of think about this differently. So we need space between, you know, there's that famous Victor Frankl quote of, you know, between stimulus and response, there is a space and in that space lies our choice in our freedom. That's a paraphrase of it. But you need that space between the stimulus, whatever the thing is that activated you and your response.
你没有意识到这一点。这就是反应——你在对过去发生的事情作出反应。如果是歇斯底里的，那么一定和过去的经历有关。回应则是采取一种不同的方法：先深呼吸，承认自己有很大的情绪反应，冷静片刻，调节自己的神经系统，然后在新的角度思考问题。我们需要在刺激和回应之间留出一个空间，就像维克多·弗兰克尔的名言所说的那样：在刺激与回应之间有一个空间，在这个空间中存在我们的选择和自由。虽然这是一个意译，但你需要在激发你的事情和你的回应之间留出那个空间。
So that's the difference between reacting and responding. I totally agree. And yet life happens in real time. I mean, parents with kids, they got to pick them up and they're working and there's stuff coming through on the phone. My question is, do you think nowadays there's too much communication bombardment through text, social media, phone and real life that we've eliminated all the space? I think what we've eliminated is there's so much more space in a face-to-face conversation.
这就是“反应”和“回应”之间的区别。我完全同意。然而，生活是在实时发生的。比如，家里有孩子的父母，他们需要接孩子、工作，同时手机上还会有消息进来。我的问题是，你是否认为现在通过短信、社交媒体、电话以及现实生活中的过多交流狂轰滥炸，使得我们失去了所有的空间？我认为，我们所消除的是面对面交流中原本存在的大量空间。
So when I have young therapy clients who are, you know, maybe in their early 20s and I had one client who was telling me the story and therapy a while ago. And now I understand what this means, but this was several years ago. And she was telling it like this. She had her thumbs in the air. And she said, and then I said, and then he said, and then I said, and I think, what is she doing? And then I realized, I said, wait, you had this conversation on text? And she said, yes, and it was really important conversation.
当我有年轻的治疗客户时，他们可能在20岁出头。有一次，一个客户给我讲述了她的故事，那是在几年前的治疗过程中。现在我明白那是什么意思，但当时我还不太清楚。她讲故事时，用大拇指比划着。她说：“我说，然后他说，然后我说。”我心想，她在干什么呢？后来我才意识到，我问她：“等一下，你们是通过短信进行这次对话的吗？”她说：“是的，而且这次对话非常重要。”
And I said, I was trying to explain to her why they were missing certain cues. They were missing what it feels like to be in the space together. They were missing the experience of looking in each other's eyes, of seeing facial expressions in body language. And she said, oh no, but we also used emojis. I had to explain to her why an emoji does not replace face-to-face interaction. Face-to-face interaction slows you down, right? You can just text anything and you don't realize there's another person at the other side of this on their phone who is reacting to your reaction.
我说，我试图向她解释他们为什么错过了一些暗示。他们没有体验到在同一空间里的感觉，没有感受到彼此对视时的体验，也没有看到对方面部表情和肢体语言的交流。她说，哦，不，我们也用了表情符号。我不得不给她解释，为什么表情符号不能替代面对面的交流。面对面的交流能让你慢下来，对吧？你可以随便发短信，却没有意识到手机那头有另一个人正在对你的反应做出回应。
And I think that, you know, this is when we go back to comment sections, we don't realize like there's another person out there. We know that. But when there are so many times that we would have a very different kind of conversation with our partner, with family members, with friends in our workplace, in comment sections, if we could remember that there's a human there.
我认为，当我们回到评论区时，我们往往没有意识到那里还有另一个人在和我们交流。我们知道这一点，但如果我们能记住评论区里也是一个真实的人，那么我们就会在和伴侣、家人、朋友或同事交流时，以一种非常不同的方式进行对话。
And the easiest way to do that is to see someone like this looking across the table at you. We can't always do that. But I think when you're having important conversations that we should remember, wait, this probably isn't appropriate to talk about on text, even though people think that, well, of course, it's so much more efficient. Actually, it's not, because now you're going to have conflict, now you're going to have misunderstandings, and now you're going to spend all this time trying to repair the rupture that just happened because you had the conversation on text.
最简单的方法就是面对面地和对方坐在桌前交流。我们不能总是这样做。但我认为，当你在进行重要谈话时，应该记住，这可能不适合用短信交流。尽管人们觉得用短信沟通当然更高效，但实际上并不是这样。因为通过短信沟通可能会导致冲突、误解，接着你还得花很多时间去修复因短信交流而产生的问题。
I refuse to argue over text. Yes. I just won't have an argument over text. And I'll say to people, because I have a client, and he's always sort of, he says, well, I just get pulled into it with my girlfriend. And I'm like, really? Does somebody have a gun to your head? And this is where I think change, we talk about what we want to accomplish in therapy. And it's changed. It's not just coming in and downloading the problem of the week and leaving and downloading the problem of the week again and leaving.
我拒绝在文字信息上争吵。是的，我就是不想通过文字进行争论。我会对别人说，因为我有个客户，他总是会说他和女朋友在消息里吵架，我就对他说，真的？有人拿枪指着你的头吗？我认为这也是我们在谈论改变时的关键，我们要在心理咨询中达成的目标就是改变，不只是每周来一趟，倾诉一下本周的问题，然后又回去如此反复。
I like to say that insight is the booby prize of therapy that you can have all the insight in the world. But if you don't make change out in the world, the insight is useless. So someone will say, oh, I got into that argument with my, you know, whoever, my partner over the weekend. And I'll say, well, did you do something different? They'll say, well, no, but I understand why. Great. That's good that you understand why. But you need to do something different, because we're all doing this dance with someone else, right?
我常说，在心理治疗中，洞察力有时就像一个安慰奖。你可以拥有全世界的洞察力，但如果你不在现实生活中做出改变，洞察就没有意义。比如，有人会说：“我在周末跟我伴侣吵了一架。”我就会问：“那你做了什么不同的事吗？”他们可能会回答：“没有，但我明白原因。”很好，你了解原因是好事，但你也需要采取不同的行动。因为我们每个人似乎都在和他人跳一场舞，对吧？
And if you change your dance steps, so people say, I want the other person to change. And I say, well, you can't change the other person, but you can influence the other person by making changes yourself. So if you change your dance steps, the other person will either have to change their dance steps too, because you're not doing that old dance with them anymore, or they'll leave the dance floor.
如果你改变了自己的舞步，人们会说：“我希望对方也改变。”我会说，你无法直接改变对方，但可以通过自身的改变来影响他们。如果你改变了你的舞步，对方要么不得不改变他们的舞步来适应，因为你不再和他们跳老舞步了，要么他们就会离开舞池。
And people are so afraid the person will leave the dance floor. And it's like, well, if they're not going to dance with you in a way that is the kind of relationship that you want, it's okay that they leave the dance floor. Go find someone who will dance with you in the way you want to dance. When it comes to behavioral change, are you a fan of small one degree turns, or I'll propose it an alternative, not as a counter, but just to explore next, but do you like, do you encourage your clients, do you call them patients or clients, by the way? Either. I don't think either is a good word. I think it's so interesting because I think that it's just we're just humans, and I don't mean to sound all woo-woo about this, but I really feel like the relationship that you have in that room, it's so unique, and I have not figured out a way to describe it. And I don't think client or patient quite does it, but for simplicity's sake, we use either.
人们总是害怕对方会离开舞池。就好像，如果他们不能以你想要的方式与你共舞，让他们离开舞池也没关系。去找一个能和你以你想要的方式共舞的人。说到行为改变，你是喜欢小幅度的一度转变，还是另一个选择，我不是作为反对而提出来的，只是想探索一下，你喜欢哪一种，你是鼓励你的客户，还是称他们为患者呢？其实“客户”或者“患者”都不太合适。我觉得很有趣，因为我认为我们都是人，我并不是想说得神乎其神，但我真的觉得你在那个房间里的关系非常独特，我至今还没找到合适的词语来描述它。不过为了简单起见，我们暂时用“客户”或“患者”这两个词。
Okay. Thank you. I've always wondered about that. Do you recommend that your clients make specific subtle changes, behavioral changes, after they have an insight, or maybe even before they have an insight? I think the reason that people have so much trouble changing is because the step that they've chosen is too big of a step to take it once, that you need small manageable steps. And I think people also forget this is why New Year's resolutions tend not to last very long, because change is a process, and there's a chapter in my book called How Humans Change, and I think it's so important for people to understand that there are stages of change, and it starts with pre-contemplation, where you don't even realize that you're thinking about making a change.
好的。谢谢你。我一直在想这个问题。你建议你的客户在获得某种见解之后，或者甚至在他们获得见解之前，做出一些具体的微妙改变或行为改变吗？我认为人们很难改变的原因是，他们选择的步骤太大，一次性无法完成，你需要小而可控的步骤。我想人们也常常忘记这就是为什么新年决心往往不能持续太久，因为改变是一个过程。我在我的书中有一章叫《人类如何改变》，我认为让人们了解改变的阶段非常重要，其中的第一步是“事前沉思”，在这个阶段你甚至没有意识到自己正在考虑做改变。
You think like something's not right, but I don't really need to change, like something's just not right in the world. You know, it's my partner, it's my, you know, it's my child, it's my whoever, right? There's, then there's contemplation, which is, oh, maybe I could make a change, but I'm not quite ready to do it. And that's when people usually they come to therapy somewhere around pre-contemplation, there's kind of between pre-contemplation and contemplation. Like something's not right, they come to therapy, we get them to contemplation, which is like, oh, maybe I'm contemplating making some changes. And then there's preparation, which is you're taking some steps to prepare for the change.
你觉得好像有什么地方不对劲，但我并不需要改变，可能是这个世界上有什么地方不太对。你知道的，可能是我的伴侣，或者我的孩子，或者其他什么人。然后是沉思阶段，也就是，也许我可以做出一些改变，但我还没有准备好。通常这个时候，人们会在沉思前期来寻求治疗，他们处于沉思前期和沉思之间。就像是意识到有什么不对，他们来接受治疗，我们帮助他们进入深思阶段，也就是他们开始考虑可能做出一些改变。接下来是准备阶段，这时你开始采取一些步骤为改变做准备。
So it's not like I'm going to dive into the deep end of the pool, it's like, oh, maybe I need to take some swimming lessons, or maybe I need to get a swimsuit, or maybe I need, you know, whatever it is, like I need to prepare to make this change. And then there's action where you actually make the change. And people think that's the last step, that's action. No, the last stage is maintenance. And maintenance is how do you maintain the change? And maintenance does not mean that you are perfectly maintaining the change. It's more like shoots and ladders if you remember that game, where like kind of you go up and then you go down, if you you can make mistakes during this time, because you're forming a new habit, you're forming a new way of being.
所以，我并不会一下子跳入泳池的深水区，而是说，我可能需要先上几节游泳课，或者我需要准备一套泳衣，或者其它准备工作，总之我需要做好改变的准备。然后才是行动，真正进行改变。很多人以为这就是最后一步了，就是行动。不，最后一个阶段是保持。保持是指如何维持这种改变。而“保持”并不意味着你要完美地维持这种改变。这更像是一个“蛇梯棋”的游戏，你可能上升，也可能下降，因为在这个过程中，你可能会犯错误，因为你正在形成一种新的习惯，一种新的生活方式。
And until it becomes familiar, going back to our discussion about how the familiar feels really good to us and the unfamiliar feels really scary, the new thing will take a while to feel familiar. So let's say that you say, like, I'm going to eat healthy. And that means that I'm not going to, you know, like eat an entire hogging dog or something when I'm sad. And I'm going to do something different. Well, sometimes when you're sad, you might do that again. But then you don't self-flagelate. So it's not like, oh, it failed. So forget it. I'm not going to, like I failed and I'm not able to make this change. No. Or you don't say, like, oh, I'm so terrible. And that was awful. And I'm so weak. Self-flagellation is not helpful.
在我们之前的讨论中提到，熟悉的事物会让我们感到舒适，而不熟悉的事物则可能让我们感到害怕。直到某件新事物变得熟悉之前，这种改变需要一段时间。举个例子，如果你下定决心要吃得更健康，这意味着你不会在伤心时吃掉一整桶冰淇淋，而是选择不同的做法。然而，有时候你可能再次在悲伤时这么做。但重要的是，你不要因为这样就责备自己。不能因为这次没做到就觉得自己彻底失败，从而放弃努力。你也不需要觉得自己糟糕透了，或者因为这件事而感到自己很软弱。过度自责并没有帮助。
Imagine if your kid came to you and they said, like, I did really poorly on this test. Are you going to say, you're so stupid? You know, like, what's wrong with you? No, you're going to say, well, let's talk about what happens. And they might say, I needed help. And I was embarrassed to ask or I didn't understand it. And or I didn't study. I messed up. I should have studied and I didn't study. Okay. Well, what are you going to do differently next time? Let's come up with a plan. So you need to have just like you have some compassion for your child and hold them accountable. Both. It's hard to hold yourself accountable when you self-flagelate in the short term you can, but it doesn't last because it feels so unpleasant.
想象一下，如果你的孩子对你说：“我这次考试考得很糟。”你会说：“你真笨，怎么回事？”当然不是。你会说：“好吧，我们来谈谈发生了什么。”他们可能会说：“我需要帮助，但我不好意思开口”或者“我没有理解题目。”还有可能是“我没有好好复习，这次搞砸了，我本应该复习的。”然后你可以说：“好吧，那你下次准备怎么做呢？我们一起想个计划吧。”就像你对你的孩子充满同情，同时也要让他们负起责任一样，对自己也要这样。当你对自己过于苛责时，短期内可能会有所推动，但不会持久，因为这种感觉非常不愉快。
You're just sort of bathing in shame. What you need is self-compassion. And actually, if you have more compassion for yourself, you're more able to hold yourself accountable. So you can say, oh, you know what happened? I was feeling really sad. I had this whole pint of hogging dies. But it's okay that I was sad. And there's another way to do this. So next time when I'm sad, I didn't have enough support. So I'm going to call a friend next time. Oh, self-compassion with accountability. Or I'm not going to keep the hogging dies in the house because I know that when I'm sad, I'm susceptible to that. Maybe one day I'll be able to do it. But right now, I'm not going to keep that. But there's something else I can do, which is I really feel like I want for me, self-compassion is related to I'm going to give myself a treat. So maybe my treat is I'm going to do, you know, I'm going to have like a healthy snack that I like.
你有点沉浸在羞愧中。你需要的是自我关怀。事实上，如果你对自己更关爱，你反而更能对自己负责。你可以说，哦，你知道发生了什么吗？我当时感到很难过，吃了整整一品脱的哈根达斯。但难过是可以理解的。我们可以用其他方法来处理这种情况。所以下次我难过的时候，我知道自己需要更多的支持，所以我下次会打电话给朋友。这就是带着责任感的自我关怀。或者，我不会把哈根达斯放在家里，因为我知道当我难过时，很容易受到诱惑。也许有一天我可以做到，但现在我不会这么做。但我可以做些其他的事情，比如给自己一点奖励。对我来说，自我关怀意味着我会给自己一个小奖励。或许我的奖励就是吃一些我喜欢的健康零食。
Or maybe my treat is I'm going to go to a movie or, you know, whatever it is. But you have to figure out what works for you and what works for other people might not work for you. So it takes a little bit of experimenting. So maintenance is this kind of experimentation, but having self-compassion with accountability until you find a system that works for you. And the new thing becomes a habit. It becomes familiar. And the thing that you used to do becomes unfamiliar and doesn't feel good anymore. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
或者说，我的犒赏是去看一场电影，或者其他什么事情。不过你得找出对你有用的方法，别人有效的方法不一定适合你。所以需要一些实验和尝试。维持平衡就是这种实验，但要在找到适合自己的方法之前，对自己要有同情心，并保持责任感。这样新的事情就会变成一种习惯，变得熟悉，而你以前的习惯反而变得陌生，不再让你感觉良好。
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Again, that's drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free sample pack. For so many years, the field of popular psychology was obsessed with how long does it take to make a change? It was like 28 days and it was like 90 years. As somebody who studies neuroplasticity, I can tell you that there's one trial learning. You'll never go back and there's stuff that takes years. It just depends on the intensity and the consequences. Even with consequences, I mean, anyone that's seen somebody relapse from drugs so many times over, it's clearly they're working with more complicated dynamics there. I think that this notion of reinforcing change is super key. I'm really glad you raised that. I want to ask, as a, I don't know how to phrase this, as a counterpoint or as an alternative, there we go. As an alternative to one degree shift or I'm somebody that I've always benefited from deadlines. I love deadlines.
再次访问 drinkelement.com/Huberman，即可领取免费试用装。多年来，大众心理学领域一直热衷于探讨：改变到底需要多长时间？有人说是28天，有人则说需要90年。作为一名研究神经可塑性的人，我可以告诉你，有些改变只需一次尝试就能完成，而有些则需要数年。这一切都取决于改变的强度和后果。即便有明显后果存在，比如看过吸毒者多次复发的人就会明白，他们面临的是更复杂的情况。我认为，强化改变这一观念极其重要。很高兴你提到了这个话题。我想问一下，作为一个反驳或说是替代方案吧，我一直是那种从期限中受益的人。我喜欢最后期限。
A deadline is how I get things done. If there's a grant deadline, a paper deadline, deadlines work. Even if you don't meet them, it's great to see how far off you were. If you did your absolute best and the mistakes you made to lead to the place where you didn't complete things in time. I love deadlines and I love rules. I've become a pretty strict rule enforcer for myself in my life. I think one of the rules that's really helped me in recent times with the vis-a-vis relationships has been no drama. Just none. I don't tolerate any drama. That's rigid, I realize, but it's helpful, far happier than I've ever been, truly, in large part because of that, like no drama. But the thing that I had to accept with a hard rule like that is that I'm going to lose people. So earlier you said that this patient client, maybe he doesn't have to put up, maybe there's somebody better for him.
截止日期是我完成事情的动力。如果有奖项申请截止日期或论文截止日期，这些期限都能激励我前进。即便没有按时完成，也能了解自己差多少。如果你尽了最大的努力，但是因为某些错误导致没能及时完成任务，这也是一种成长。我喜欢截止日期，也喜欢规则。在生活中，我对自己制定了严格的规则。我认为最近一个对我在处理关系上非常有帮助的规则就是“不折腾”。就是不允许任何剧烈的情绪变化。我不容忍任何的戏剧化。我意识到这可能有些严格，但它让我更快乐，过得更好，比以往任何时候都开心，很大程度上是因为我坚持了“不折腾”。但是，我必须接受这样一个严格的规则可能会导致失去一些人。所以，早些时候你提到的这个患者或客户，或许他并不需要容忍，可能还有更适合他的人。
There's someone else out there that they don't have to deal with. I think that one of the things that I noticed in my own past and with others that I know, struggling with a dynamic with people, typically it's romantic relationships, but could be anything is you have to be willing to let go. You can't always resolve the conflict. I find that a lot of people, maybe it's this childhood thing. They feel like they have to remain on great terms or they have to stay friends or they have to put a bow on it. I so admire the people in life that are like, yeah, that didn't work done because I look at the time wasted. Yes. I think that in our desire to make everything kind of okay in the end, we burn valuable life energy and incredibly valuable time.
有些人无需处理这样的关系。我注意到自己过去的经历和身边朋友的经历，发现与他人相处有时很困难，尤其是在亲密关系中，但同样适用于其他关系。在这种情况下，你必须愿意放手。你无法总是解决冲突。我发现很多人，可能是因为小时候的经验，觉得必须维持良好关系，保持朋友关系，或是给事情一个完美的结局。我非常钦佩那些能够坦然放手的人，他们会说：“这段关系不合适，结束吧。”因为我看到太多人因此浪费了时间。我们常常想要让事情有一个好的结局，但在这过程中，我们消耗了宝贵的生命能量和时间。
Some people might hear no drama and think, well, you're going to lose a bunch of people. I certainly will. Or they'll rise to the occasion or whatever you want to call it. But I have a full life of many people with whom I have zero drama and wonderful relationships. So I'm full. My dance card's full. But I'd rather I feel so firm about this given the peace that it's brought me.
有些人可能听到“没有戏剧性”这句话会想，你可能会因此失去一群人。我肯定会失去一些人。或者他们会因应情况而改变或表现出不同的样子，无论你怎么形容。但我有一个充实的生活，身边有很多与我关系良好且没有戏剧性的人。因此，我的生活已经很充实。我的人生社交圈已经满员。但我宁愿这样，因为这给我带来了内心的平静。
Yeah. And that I realized like, yeah, like I may never talk to that person again. I might I might not. But at the first hint of drama, like I'm done. And I think it's because I force so much suffering on myself for so long of trying to resolve these things that clearly wouldn't work. And I don't know. I feel immense freedom from it. But I think I hear this with other people like, oh, yeah, but you know, they're going to change or you know, he's going to stop drinking or not referring to me. I'm not a drinker. But there's a hard fact. I quit drinking. Didn't have a problem with it. Just was like, I'm done with alcohol. Just like that relationship's over.
是的，我意识到，我可能再也不会和那个人说话了，也可能会。但只要一出现戏剧性的苗头，我就会选择放手。我认为这是因为我曾经在试图解决明显行不通的问题时，让自己承受了太多痛苦。我不知道，我从中感受到巨大的自由。但我也听到其他人说，哦，他们会改变的，或者他说不定会戒酒，不是说我自己，我不是酒鬼。但有个硬道理就是，我戒了酒，不是因为有问题，而是觉得该与酒告别，就像那段关系结束了一样。
And they just cling to this like thing that it's got to like, they just won't let go. Yeah. And I don't what is that about? Why do we hold on to the thing that doesn't work? Even if we know we're not going to like, stay in it with it. Yeah. What is the obsession? It's interesting. So I'm thinking about how when you say no drama, you know, what does that actually mean? And it's really important because when you look at why people who are most satisfied with their lives, you know, what is it about their lives? They're surrounded by people that they feel good about.
他们就是紧紧抓住这件事，好像非要不放手不可。我不明白这到底是为什么？为什么我们总是坚持那些行不通的事情？即使我们知道自己不会一直坚持下去。这种执着到底是什么？这很有意思。所以我在想，当你说“没有戏剧性”的时候，这究竟是什么意思？这真的很重要，因为当你观察那些对自己生活最满意的人，会发现他们生活中有什么不同之处。他们周围总是有让他们感觉良好的人。
Now, let me be clear about what that means. So, you know, we talk about this concept of idiot compassion versus wise compassion. So idiot compassion. I love that. It means I love it already. So idiot compassion is what if you surround yourself with people who are only going to validate your experience when you say no drama, that's not necessarily a great thing.
现在，让我明确说明这是什么意思。我们谈论“愚蠢的同情”和“明智的同情”这个概念。什么是“愚蠢的同情”？我喜欢这个说法。“愚蠢的同情”就是，当你把自己周围的人都变成只会认可或迎合你经验的人时，就算你避开了那些麻烦事，这并不一定是件好事。
So like, for example, you know, let's say that, you know, someone says to our friends, like, I don't understand why he broke up with me or I don't understand, you know, why this keeps happening to me. And your friends like, no, you go girl, he's wrong. You're right. You know, whatever or, you know, my partner's doing this and we tend to kind of feel like our job as a friend is to support the position of our friends. That's idiot compassion. Wise compassion is what you get in therapy where we say, you know, like what might be going on here?
所以，比如说，当有人对我们的朋友说：“我不明白他为什么和我分手”或者“我不明白为什么这种事情总是发生在我身上”，然后朋友就会说：“别管他，你是对的，他是错的。”这就是所谓的盲目同情。而明智的同情则是在治疗中获得的，比如我们会问“这里可能发生了什么？”
It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. We don't say that to our friends in idiot compassion. Okay. So think about that. So is it that you want no drama? Meaning you want your friends to kind of back up everything you're saying, you're not going to grow as a person, you're not going to hear what you need to hear. The friends you want to surround yourself with are people who will tell you the truth in a kind, respectful way and that you're willing to hear it.
这有点像每次你去的酒吧里爆发争吵，也许问题就在于你。我们在愚蠢的同情中不会这样对朋友说。好好想想这个。如果你想要"无戏剧性"，意思是你希望朋友总是支持你说的一切，这样你就无法成长，也听不到自己需要听到的东西。你应该围绕的朋友是那些会以友善和尊重的方式对你说实话，并且你也愿意听他们说话的人。
So some people think that it would be drama if their friends kind of called them on their bullshit, right? That's not drama. So that's a healthy communicative, open, honest relationship. I agree, by the way, I think that my definition of drama is when challenging things are presented in a way that's not an effort to resolve. Right. Right. What I'm talking about is evacutive expression.
有些人认为，如果朋友揭穿他们的借口，那就算是"戏剧性"事件，对吧？其实这并不是什么戏剧性事件。这是一种健康的沟通方式，是一种开放和诚实的关系。我个人同意这个观点，我把“戏剧性事件”定义为以一种不想解决问题的方式呈现挑战性事情的情况。我要讲的是一种唤起情感的表达。
Yeah. I mean, I'm sort of chuckling on the inside too about this thing, about friends. I mean, I would say my group of friends is they're amazing. I'm blessed with incredible friends and friendships. I'm so blessed. Only we shed more time for all of them. The we're pretty hard on each other in terms of being very blunt, very like that was dumb. There's maybe maybe more male specific kind of language like that was dumb. Like why do you do those super stupid or yet don't be an idiot. Don't do it again. Or no, I totally disagree. That's a lot of the exchange in my friend group.
是的，我内心也在偷偷笑，关于朋友这件事。我想说，我的朋友圈子真的很棒，我很幸运有这么好的朋友和友谊。我真的很幸运。只是我们要是能有更多的时间在一起就好了。在我们这个圈子里，我们对彼此都非常直率，比如会直接说“那真是蠢透了”，可能更多的是男性特有的交流方式，比如“那真蠢，为啥要那么做？别再傻了，”或者说“我完全不同意你的观点。”在我的朋友圈里，这样的交流很多。
I would say maybe just the culture I grew up in, and academia very, very little validation. The validation isn't a big part of it. But I am also surrounded by people that are very self-critical. So it's sort of inherent to the way they work in their work and their relationships and their life and their fitness. Like pretty much everyone's pretty good after it. What I'm talking about is when people say no drama, what they mean is don't bring anything up. Don't challenge anything. Don't bring anything to my attention that maybe needs to be brought to my attention because I could be better in this relationship.
我会说，这可能与我成长的文化有关。在学术界，几乎没有什么认可或肯定。认可并不是其中的重要部分。但是，我身边的人往往都对自己要求很高。这种自我批评的态度已经融入了他们的工作、交际、生活和健身等方面，几乎每个人在这些方面都表现得不错。我所说的"没有问题"的状态，其实是指人们说"不要制造麻烦"时，他们的意思是不要提任何问题，不要质疑任何事情。不要提醒我那些可能值得我关注的事情，因为这些关注可能会让我在这段关系中做得更好。
To me, I think what you're talking about is volatility, which is drama. Can you express the thing you want to express in a way that feels like an invitation or like it comes from a place of curiosity as opposed to blame? So often people will come at the person and say you did this as opposed to I was confused by what happened back there. What happened? Why did you make that choice? Or why what happened between us here? Can we talk about that?
在我看来，我认为你所讨论的是波动性，也就是戏剧性。你能否用一种像是邀请或者出于好奇的方式来表达你的意思，而不是责备？很多时候，人们会直接指责别人说“你做了这个”，而不是说“我对刚才发生的事情感到困惑。发生了什么？你为什么会做出那个选择？或者，我们之间发生了什么？我们可以谈谈吗？”
So you're being curious about the other person's experience as opposed to blaming the other person and assuming their intentions or why they did something or something about their character. So drama tends to be from all the assumptions. Like I know that my truth is the right story. That's how you would come at that, right? And yours, you were wrong. And I think it's so interesting because people come to therapy with these faulty narratives. You know, we're all storytellers. We all try to make sense of something.
所以，你对他人的经历充满好奇，而不是指责他们、揣测他们的动机或他们做某件事的原因，也不是评判他们的品性。戏剧性往往源于这些假设，比如认为自己的真相才是唯一正确的故事。而你错了。我觉得这很有趣，因为人们带着这些有偏差的叙述来寻求心理治疗。我们都是讲故事的人，我们都试图去理解事情的内涵。
And we all believe that our story is the absolute accurate version of the story. And it's actually so funny when you see couples and they experienced the same, you know, they were part of the same experience and they have wildly different versions. And then there's some part where the Venn diagram overlaps. And then finally they can see, oh, that person's not a bad person. They were coming at it because they in their story, they believe this. And that's so important.
我们都相信自己的故事是最准确的版本。当你看到一对情侣时，这种情况就很有趣——他们经历了相同的事情，但却有截然不同的叙述。然后，在某些地方，他们的观点可以相互重叠。最终，他们可以理解，哦，原来对方并不是坏人，只是因为在对方的故事中，他们相信了某些东西。这一点非常重要。
So drama happens when assumptions are made. People characterize the other person's story as inaccurate, their own story as accurate. And then there's lots of kind of, there's no space for curiosity or connection. It's all rupture, no repair. As you're saying this, I realized what I mean by drama because I realize it's a very broad term. And I come from a background where my dad's from South America, my mom's from New York. So like a motive expression is not what I'm referring to.
当假设产生时，戏剧化就会发生。人们通常认为他人的故事是不准确的，而自己的故事才是准确的。在这种情况下，没有空间去好奇或建立联系，只有分裂而没有修复。当你说这些时，我领悟到我所说的“戏剧化”是什么意思，因为我意识到这个术语非常宽泛。我来自一个背景，我爸爸是南美人，我妈妈是纽约人，所以我指的并不是情感表达。
People being passionate about something or even angry about something or even having a problem like, hey, that didn't feel good. That's not what I'm referring to. I realized, as you were saying, what it is that gets me. It's when that I put under the category of drama, which for which I have zero tolerance for unless you can convince me otherwise, is when people dynamite the mind on the way out. It's, yes, I'm telling you how much this sucks. This is how I feel or this is what you do.
人们对某件事情充满激情，甚至感到愤怒，或者对某个问题提出意见，比如“嘿，那样做让我不舒服”，这些并不是我所指的。我明白你在说什么，是什么让我在意。这种情况我把归类为“戏剧化”，这是我完全无法容忍的，除非你能说服我。具体来说，就是有人在离开的时候用强硬的方式表达，例如，“是的，我就是要告诉你这有多糟糕，这是我的感受，或者这是你做的事情。”
And then I'm inaccessible. And, you know, so they're not really interested. It's this evacutive expression or projection. As you said, that's what I'm defining as trauma. That to me is far and away different than saying, hey, listen, like this sucked. Can you think about this? Can we talk about this? Andrew, you screwed up. Like, okay, great. Like, let's figure it out. Absolutely.
然后我就变得难以接近。而且，你知道，他们也并不是真的感兴趣。这是一种逃避的表达或投射。正如你所说的，我把这定义为创伤。对我来说，这和说“嘿，听着，这很糟糕，你能考虑一下这个吗？我们能谈谈吗？安德鲁，你搞砸了。好的，没问题，我们来解决。”是截然不同的。
But it's this, I'm rolling a grenade in the door and I'm out of here. That to me is the one that I'm just I'm too old for that shit. The silent treatment is actually incredibly aggressive and hostile. People think that the loud one is the problem in the relationship. Sometimes the silent one is the one who's the problem. You know, it's the person who smiles through everything and doesn't really say anything, but they're being so passive aggressive or the person who then, as you said, detonates the bomb and then goes silent and that's their punishment.
但就是这样，我把手榴弹扔进门里，然后我就离开。这对我来说，就是那种我实在太老，不想再经历的。冷战其实是非常具有攻击性和敌意的。人们总是觉得关系中的问题在于那个大声说话的人。有时候，沉默的那个人才是问题所在。你知道的，他们似乎一直在微笑，却什么也不说，表现得非常被动攻击；或者像你所说的那样，把“炸弹”引爆后就保持沉默，以此作为惩罚。
They're punishing you by not talking to you for a day or two or three. That's incredibly hostile. And the other way that people do that is you bring up something in a nice way to someone and here's how they create drama and but they're shutting something down. They're shutting down any possibility of communication is every time you bring up something to them, they cry.
他们通过一两天甚至三天不跟你说话来惩罚你。这种行为非常敌意。还有一种人们常用的方法是，当你以友好的方式向某人提起某件事时，他们会通过制造戏剧性反应来关闭沟通的可能性。每当你和他们提起什么，他们都会哭。
Now, people don't like it when I say this. They say, is it therapist? They should be able to feel sad or hurt when someone brings up something and they should be able to cry. And I'm saying, no, sometimes crying is a manipulation. You can manipulate someone so I'll see a couple and one person will bring up something. Let's say, you know, like when you do this, you know, or this hurts me or I don't like this or I need more help with this and the person cries.
现在，当我这么说的时候，人们通常不喜欢听。他们会说，作为治疗师，不是应该让人们在被触动时感到悲伤或受伤，并且能够哭泣吗？而我想说，不，全然不是这样。有时候，哭泣是一种操控手段。你可以用哭来影响别人。我常常看到这样的情况：一对伴侣中一个人提出一些问题，比如“你这样做的时候，我感到受伤”或者“我不喜欢这样”“我需要更多的帮助”，然后另一个人就开始哭泣。
Like you're hurting my feelings. This is, you know, as opposed to saying this person is trying to communicate with you, you're going to have feelings about it, but there's a manipulative way in which people will cry every time or many times and it shuts down any possibility of communication. And so we have to say, you know, what are you doing here? Every time you cry, then the other person feels like, why can't bring this up? Because I'm hurting my partner. And now we can never have communication because if I bring something up, I'm going to catch 22. If I don't bring it up, we have a problem. If I bring it up, you're going to say I'm hurting your feelings and then I have to stop. So I have to be extra careful. And I don't know, there's no way to move forward here.
就像你伤了我的感情。实际上，这是因为有人试图跟你沟通时，你会有自己的感觉，但有时对方会通过频繁甚至每次都哭来操控局面，导致无法沟通。因此我们需要说，你现在是在做什么呢？每次你哭泣，另一方就会觉得自己不能再提某个话题，因为这样会伤害到伴侣的感情。结果就是我们永远无法交流。因为一旦我提出问题，就陷入了无法解决的困境：如果不提，我们有问题；如果提了，你会说我伤害了你的感情，我就得停止。因此我必须格外小心，而我却不知道，该如何才能继续前进。
So what are you doing that instance? We have to talk about the functionality of the crime. You know, why is it so hard for you to hear something that your partner is saying, do you feel blamed? Do you feel shame? Shame is something that we avoid at all costs, right? No one wants to feel that. Do you feel like this person is making a global statement when they're not that they're saying you're a bad person as opposed to what you did here was bad. So there's a difference between who you are and what you did.
那么在那一刻你在做什么呢？我们必须谈谈犯罪行为的作用。你知道，为什么你的伴侣说的话你很难听进去，你是否感到被指责了？你是否感到羞愧？羞愧是我们无论如何都想避免的，对吧？没人想感到羞愧。你是否觉得这个人在进行全面的批评，认为你是个坏人，而不是只是指出你做的这件事不好？你是谁和你做了什么是有区别的。
And often we paint with a big brush when we're trying to communicate with our partners, you know, like you're bad as opposed to that thing that you did, that was not good. That thing you did was bad, but you inherently are not a bad person. And we tend to tell our partners in all kinds of ways that they're bad people when they do something that just pleases us. We have to be really careful about separating what they did from who they are. And we need to do that with ourselves. So often we do something and then we feel so much shame around what we did and we say, oh, I'm a terrible person.
我们常常在与伴侣交流时，会用一个很大的刷子去画图，也就是说，我们会笼统地批评他们，比如说“你不好”，而不是具体地指出“你做的那件事不好”。那件事不好，但你本质上并不是一个坏人。我们在对伴侣表达不满时，常常会用各种方式暗示他们是坏人，而事实可能只是他们做的某件事情不合我们心意。我们必须非常小心地将他们的行为与他们本身区分开。这也是我们对待自己的一个重要方式。我们常常做了一些事后，会感到强烈的羞愧，然后对自己说“我是一个很糟糕的人”。我们需要学会区分自己的行为与自身的价值。
I was supposed to, I did something that doesn't align with who I want to be. It doesn't align with actually who I am. And that's good that you feel bad about it because if we didn't have guilt, right? So guilt is a good positive feeling. Shame, nothing comes from shame. We just tend to sort of like retreat from shame. Guilt is great. Guilt is saying, you're not a sociopath. Guilt is saying, what I did did not align with the person that I am. So I am a good person. I did something that felt not aligned with that. And so I need to be aware that it's good that I feel good.
我本应该…，但我做了一些与我想成为的人不一致的事情。这也与我真实的自我不符。不过，因为感到内疚是件好事，所以这也不算坏事。如果我们没有内疚感，对吧？内疚是一种积极的情感。而羞愧则没有正面的作用，羞愧只是让我们退缩。内疚是很不错的情感，内疚说明你不是个反社会者。内疚表明，我做的事情与我的本性不符，但我依然是个好人。我做了一些让我感到不合适的事情，因此需要意识到这种感觉是好的。
If I didn't feel guilt, that would say something about my character. But the fact that I do feel guilt means that I'm willing to look at myself and I'm willing to do something different and I'm willing to make a change. And here I'm making a bunch of assumptions. I wonder if the crying is pre-programmed in some people because it's what I was able to elicit sympathy and project them. Like if they didn't do it, that they get hit or if they didn't do it, it would continue. Yeah, absolutely. Everything we do is for self-preservation. And we're just not aware of it. We want to avoid pain at all costs. And so even though a lot of what we do to avoid pain creates more pain.
如果我不感到内疚，那就说明我的性格有问题。但正因为我感到内疚，这意味着我愿意反省自己，也愿意做出改变。我在这里做了一些假设。我想知道哭泣是否是一些人天生的行为，因为我过去能够通过哭泣获得同情并保护自己。如果他们不这样做，就可能受到伤害，或者事情会继续恶化。是的，没错。我们所做的一切都是为了自我保护，但往往我们并没有意识到这一点。我们想不惜一切代价避免痛苦，虽然很多时候我们为了避免痛苦的行为反而制造了更多的痛苦。
But that's not our intent. So anything that, you know, when people, there's somebody that I write about in my book who comes off as very unlikeable at the beginning of the book and people say, why did you even take him into your practice? Why did you work with him? Why did you treat him? And when they get to the end of the book, not to spoil everything, but they, he's probably the person they love the best. And it's because I'm looking at that person's actions as they're coming from a place of he's protecting himself from pain.
但这并不是我们的意图。在我的书中，有一个我写到的人物，书的开头他显得很不讨人喜欢，人们会问：“你为什么要接纳他进入你的诊所？为什么要和他合作？为什么要治疗他？”而当他们读到书的结尾时，我不想剧透太多，但他可能成了他们最喜欢的人。这是因为我看到他的行为实际上是出于一种保护自己免受伤害的心态。
So he's an asshole to everybody because it doesn't let anybody in. It doesn't let him have the possibility of being hurt again because he was terribly hurt. And so, you know, we say hurt people hurt people. What are they doing? They're protecting themselves from more pain because if they let themselves be vulnerable, they're exposed to the possibility of pain and they don't want that. Are there some people for whom therapy just ain't going to help? Yes. People who are not willing to self-reflect. And it's hard, right?
所以他对所有人都表现得很刻薄，因为他不愿意让任何人走进他的内心。他这样做是为了避免再次受到伤害，因为他曾经受到过严重的伤害。我们常说“受伤的人会伤害别人”。他们这样做是为了保护自己不再遭受更多的痛苦，因为如果他们让自己变得脆弱，就可能会再次受到伤害，而这是他们不想要的。有些人，心理治疗可能对他们确实没什么帮助，因为他们不愿意自我反省。而这过程确实很困难，不是吗？
I think a lot of people come to therapy and they say, I want something to change, but what they want to change is something else or someone else. And you, again, you can influence that. You can't change another person before people come to couples therapy with me. I ask them to each separately come up with the one thing that they want to work on about themselves. So it's not, what do you want to change in your partner? It's if you were going to be the best possible version of yourself in a relationship.
我认为很多人去接受心理治疗时会说，他们希望某些事情发生改变，但他们想要改变的通常是其他事情或其他人。然而，你能做的只是影响这些事情，而不能真正改变另一个人。每当有伴侣来找我进行婚姻治疗时，我都会要求他们分别思考自己希望在自身进行改进的一件事情。这不是关于你希望伴侣发生什么变化，而是关于如果你想在关系中成为最好的自己，你会怎么做。
What is the one thing that you really want to work on in our couples work together? Well, no, I didn't want to work on things, but I really need the other person. No way to me. I won't even see them in the room until they each have a very clear sense of this is the thing that I want to work in. Now that might change over time depending on what we uncover, but they need to come in with a goal. Like we all know that there's something about ourselves that we could do better at in a relationship. And so what is that thing? What do you want to work on? And if the other person happens to change great, if they don't, that's good information too, but you're not coming in because you think the other person's going to change your coming into grow on your own. And you're growing in the context of this relationship, but you are doing some personal growth in the couples.
在我们的伴侣工作中，你最想要改进的是什么？其实，我并不是不想要改进，而是我非常需要对方。对我来说，不可能。我甚至不会在我们彼此有一个明确的目标之前看到他们。在这个过程中，我们的目标可能会有所改变，但他们需要带着一个目标来。因为我们都知道，在一段关系中，总有一些我们自己可以做得更好的地方。那么，那是什么呢？你想要改进什么？如果对方有所改变，那当然很好；如果没有，那也是一个值得重视的信息。但你并不是来这里期望对方做出改变，而是为了在关系的背景下成长，是在伴侣关系中进行个人的成长。
I happen to think couples therapy moves us along faster individually than individual therapy does. Interesting. Because in individual therapy, you're telling a story. It's your perspective. I have to do is that therapist into it. What else might be going on out there in couples therapy. I see how this person reacts with other people. Now I can see that in the therapeutic relationship individually. Like whatever this is a microcosm of how they interact out there. But I'm different from the people they interact with out there because of the nature of the therapeutic relationship. So there will be what we call transference where they transfer some of their feelings about other people into the relationship with the therapist. And that gives me a really good idea of how they interact out there.
我认为，夫妻治疗对我们个人发展的推进速度比个人治疗要快。这很有趣。因为在个人治疗中，你是在讲述一个故事，那是你的视角。而在夫妻治疗中，我能看到这个人与他人互动的方式。这样我就能在治疗关系中看到这种互动，无论它是什么，都可以看作是他们与外界互动的一个缩影。不过，由于治疗关系的特殊性质，我与他们在外界互动的人不同。所以会出现我们所说的移情现象，即他们会把对于其他人的一些感觉转移到与治疗师的关系中。这让我更好地了解他们在外界的互动方式。
Could you give me an example of transference positive and negative? Yeah. So let's say that I say something and it turns out that they felt criticized. Well, it could be that I said something in a critical way. Maybe. Tirely possible. It could be that they have kind of transferred feelings about a parent onto me. If I happen to be the age of their parent or similar to where there's enough of an age difference between us. And they heard something that was meant to be compassionate, but it was also true and something they need to look at. But they heard it as criticism. Sometimes you transfer. There's romantic transference. People get romantically attached to their therapist. And you have to be able to talk about that. Obviously, you have very clear boundaries. Nothing can ever happen. But it's okay to bring that up.
你能给我举一个正面和负面的移情的例子吗？好的，比如说我说了一些话，结果他们感到被批评。可能是我确实用了一种批评的语气，也很可能是他们将对父母的感受转移到了我身上。如果我碰巧和他们父母的年龄相仿或者我们之间有一定的年龄差距，他们可能把我本来带有同情心且具有建设性意见的话听成了批评。有时，人们会发生转移，比如浪漫移情，有些人会对他们的心理咨询师产生浪漫情感。在这种情况下，我们需要进行沟通。显然，我们要保持明确的界限，任何实际行动都不可能发生，但提出这个问题是可以的。
People think I'm not allowed to say that, I have these feelings. And then we deal with them and we see how we can talk through that. And it's generally not that the person wants to get with you. It's really more about what it means to feel romantically loved. Or what it means to be loved in general. And that they put a romantic veneer over that. So love is so complicated and it's so multifaceted. So there's that kind of transference that happens. But I think with couples, when I say you need to be able to work on something that would, if you were to be the best possible version of yourself in this relationship, what would you want to work on? It might be, I need to self-regulate better. It might be, I need to be less needy of the other.
人们认为我不能说出来我有这些感觉。然后我们会去处理这些感觉，看看如何通过对话来解决。通常情况下，这并不是那个人想要和你在一起，而是更多关于感受到浪漫的爱意味着什么，或者被爱的感觉是什么。他们只是把这份情感披上了浪漫的外衣。爱情是如此复杂、多面，所以会发生情感转移。不过，我认为对于情侣来说，当我说你需要努力去改善某件事情时，我的意思是，如果你想成为这段关系中最好的自己，你希望在哪方面有所改进？可能是需要更好地自我调节，也可能是需要减少对对方的依赖。
In other words, a lot of people think that their partner needs to be like everything. You need to telepathically read my mind. And if you don't, you don't care. You need to intuit what I wanted to do for my birthday. And if you didn't, then you don't really know me. And I these sound like kind of extreme, almost immature examples. But these are the kinds of things that people get caught up in. And I'm giving kind of like the highest level of that, but they can be much more nuanced and much deeper. And so, I think that people, who cannot be helped, people who are not willing to self-reflect and look at themselves.
换句话说，很多人认为他们的伴侣应该满足自己的一切需求。比如，你需要能心灵感应地读懂我的想法。如果你做不到，那就是你不在乎我。又比如，你需要能直觉地知道我生日想做什么。如果你没想到，那你就不了解我。我知道这些听起来有些极端，甚至有些幼稚，但这确实是人们常常陷入的误区。我给的例子可能是较为显著的情况，但其实这样的误解可以更加微妙和深刻。所以，我认为那些不愿反思自己、不愿自我审视的人是无药可救的。
I love that statement you made, which is if people are coming to therapy, they need to ask about the change they want to make in themselves. Yeah. And what their role is in what is not going the way they want in their lives. And this isn't about blaming them for the problem at all. It's about saying there might be some truly difficult situations out there. You might have a parent with mental health issues. And you know, what are you going to do about that? You probably are going to change the fact that they have mental health issues. But your reaction can change. So you can do something different. We can talk about what that might look like.
我很喜欢你说的那句话，就是如果人们来寻求心理治疗，他们需要思考自己想要进行哪些改变，以及他们在生活中那些不如意的事情中承担了什么角色。这不是在责备他们的问题，而是说存在一些真的很困难的情况，比如你的父母可能有心理健康问题。那么，你能对此做些什么呢？你可能无法改变他们存在心理健康问题的事实，但你的反应是可以改变的。我们可以讨论一下这可能会是什么样子的。
You cannot engage in that dance. You can set boundaries. You can, you know, there are different ways to make choices about that. They're sort of like societal things that we can't change. But like, what can you do so that you feel like you have agency in the world? Because we all have agency to some degree. So where do we find that agency as opposed to going into this like helpless, I'm the victim position? And people don't like to hear that they say, what are you, what kind of therapist are you calling people victims? I'm not saying people are victims, but I'm saying people have the mindset that they don't have agency and then they become victims. But when you realize that you have agency, you realize, well, there are really difficult people things, circumstances in the world. But I get to choose how to respond to them.
你无法参与那种舞蹈，你可以设立界限。你知道的，还有不同的方法来对此进行选择。这些事情有点像我们无法改变的社会现象。但是，你能做些什么，让自己在这个世界里感到拥有主导权呢？因为在某种程度上，我们都拥有一定的主导权。那么，我们如何找到这种主导权，而不是陷入无助的“我是受害者”的思维方式呢？有人不喜欢听到这些，他们会问，你在暗示人们是受害者吗？我并不是说人们是受害者，而是说有些人认为自己没有主导权，于是就成了受害者。但是当你意识到自己拥有主导权时，你会发现，虽然世界上确实有一些困难的人和事情，但你可以选择如何回应它们。
Going back to this thing about texting, how many of the challenges that people present to you in your office these days, um, incorporates or starts with, yeah, so I got this text versus, you know, somebody came to me or called me and we had a hard interaction or we had a conversation or something happened at work. I mean, how much of it is in the digital world nowadays? Yeah. So here's what's interesting about texting is so many times people will come in and they'll say, we had this conversation on text and I'll say, can you show me the conversation? Which people think, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you want to hear the narrative from that person? Well, I just heard the narrative, but I want to see what was actually said because they're like, oh, I don't really know. All right, let me read you what they said. And so, but I want to see what both parts of that were and then the person can see, oh, here's how I contributed to that or here's a choice that I made in that moment.
关于发短信这件事，现在有多少人在你办公室里向你提出的挑战是以“我收到了一条短信”开头的，而不是“有人找我，或者打电话给我，我们发生了一次不愉快的互动”或者“我们进行了交谈，或者工作中发生了什么事情”？如今，这些问题有多少是在数字世界中产生的？是的，关于短信，有趣的是，很多时候人们会走进来，说他们在短信里进行了对话，然后我会问他们能不能把对话给我看看。有人可能会奇怪，为什么不直接听他们的叙述呢？实际上，我已经听过叙述了，但我想看看实际说了什么。因为他们可能会说：“哦，我不是很确定。”然后我会说：“好吧，让我看看他们说了什么。”我希望能看到双方的对话内容，这样那个人就能明白：“哦，这就是我在其中做出的贡献”或者“这是我在那一刻做出的选择。”
Again, I prefer that these conversations that people have are face-to-face conversations when they're kind of about something in the relationship. Text is great for your dailyness of, hey, look what I had for lunch or how you doing or I love you or whatever, right? Or can you pick up the kid? But when you're having some kind of, again, rupture or conflict between you, that's not a text conversation, but many people will do that on text. And then now we have a record. So it's not just like what my client is saying to me, it's like, this is how the conversation actually went down. We have a transcript of it and it's really helpful for people to be able to look at that transcript.
再次强调，我更喜欢当人们讨论某些关系中的问题时，通过面对面的交流来进行。文本消息确实很方便用于日常交流，比如“看看我午餐吃了什么”或“你怎么样”或者“我爱你”之类的，或者问“你能去接孩子吗”。但当你们之间有些不顺或者冲突时，这样的对话不适合用短信。然而，很多人还是会选择用短信沟通。这样一来，就有一个文字记录。这样不仅仅是我客户对我说了什么，还能看到对话的真实细节，我们有了一个对话的文字记录。这对于人们查看沟通过程非常有帮助。
I agree. At the same time, I feel like breakups are much harder than they used to be because you can block someone on social media, but then the block itself becomes this symbol. You can mute people. You can put your phone away, but unless you block their number, they can send you things. You can go back and read texts if you're an obsessive person. There are just so many avenues, or avenues, excuse me, for people to access our psyche when we're trying to move on. In the old days, kids, you had a phone with an answering machine, you broke up, it sucked, you looked at the photos, you put the photos in a box, or you burned them, and you put the box in a shelf, and then when you got into a new relationship, you either hid the box or you destroyed the box and you moved on.
我同意。不过，我觉得分手比以前困难得多。现在你可以在社交媒体上把某人屏蔽，但这个屏蔽本身就成了一种象征。你可以静音某人，把手机放一边，但除非你拉黑他们的号码，否则他们仍然能给你发消息。如果你是个容易执着的人，你还可以回头去看那些短信。现在有太多的渠道让别人影响我们的内心，当我们试图走出来的时候。在过去，孩子们，你们有一个带答录机的电话，分手了，很痛苦，你看看照片，把照片放进一个盒子，或者烧掉，然后把盒子放在架子上。等你开始新的恋情时，要么把盒子藏起来，要么直接丢掉，然后继续前进。
And people's phone numbers changed. And it was so much easier. I noticed that one intended to just remember more good stuff, because there was another stuff coming in, the bad stuff tended to dissipate, or maybe it didn't. It was just so much easier. You weren't being infiltrated by the past. Because of the nature of electronic stuff, I just feel like it's like the past trying to hold us back. This is on both sides. It doesn't matter if the breakup was amicable, then you long for the person knowing again, or the breakup was rough, and then you relive there's so many variants on this that I don't know. It just feels like breaking up is already one of the hardest things. People I didn't think don't acknowledge just how hard breakups are.
人们的电话号码变了，这让事情变得简单多了。我注意到，人们倾向于记住更多美好的事情，因为新的事情不断涌入，坏的事情就逐渐消散，或者可能根本没有消散。事情变得简单多了，你不会被过去困扰。由于电子产品的特性，我觉得它有点像过去在试图拖住我们。这在任何情况下都适用。无论分手是友好的，你可能会怀念那个人，还是分手是困难的，你会不断回忆各种版本的回忆。分手本来就是一件很难的事情，我觉得人们并没有意识到分手有多难。
Right, they don't. And I think there's this hierarchy of pain that people have about certain things. Like, well, you only dated for this amount of time. How can it be that painful this amount of time after the breakup? There's this hierarchy. But if it was a divorce, then people understand why a year later you're still dealing with it. Or if you were only married for five years versus married for 20 years, there's some hierarchy of pain that we have around things. It was a miscarriage, but your child, your eight-year-old didn't die. I mean, that's the stuff. Does people say that kind of thing? No, they don't say it, but it's how they treat people. It's like you had a miscarriage. Like, what they say is like, oh, it's okay. You'll get pregnant again. If your child dies, they're not like, it's okay. You'll have another child, right? But it feels the person who had a miscarriage that they lost their child. It's very, very painful.
是的，他们不这么说。但我觉得人们对某些事情存在一种痛苦的等级观念。比如，有人会觉得，“你们只约会了这么短的时间，分手后为什么还会这么痛苦？”这就是一种等级观念。但如果是离婚，人们就能理解为什么一年后你仍然在处理这段关系的影响。或者，有人只结婚了五年和结婚二十年，在痛苦的程度上也有些等级分别。有人会觉得：“这只是流产，而不是你八岁的孩子去世了。”虽然人们不会直接这么说，但他们的态度就是这样。他们会对流产的人说：“没关系，你还会怀孕的。”但如果孩子去世，他们不会说：“没关系，你还能再有一个孩子。”然而，对于流产者来说，他们失去了自己的孩子，那种痛苦是非常非常深的。
But listen to how we talk to people who have these experiences that we tend to think that some experiences are sort of higher on the hierarchy of pain than others are. And so we think like a breakup is not as bad as like a breakup and a non-marriage or a short marriage is not as hard as a breakup with a long marriage or whatever the hierarchy is. Or even someone who, you know, it’s like, well, and this is the reason that people don’t actually get help for things because they think, well, you know, it’s just this. It’s not really that better. I feel kind of sad or I can’t sleep or I’m having trouble in this relationship. But it’s not that bad because I have a roof over my head and food on the table. So I don’t need to go get help.
但是，听听我们是如何与那些经历过这些事情的人交谈的。我们往往认为某些经历在痛苦的层次上比其他经历更严重。比如，我们觉得失恋不如婚姻中的分手那么严重，短期婚姻的分手又不如长期婚姻的分手那么难过，等等。或者说，有的人会想，“这就是为什么人们实际上不去寻求帮助，因为他们觉得，哦，你知道，这只是这样，我并不是真的那么糟糕。我只是有点伤心，或者我睡不好觉，或者我在这段关系中遇到了麻烦。但这并没有那么糟，因为我有房子住，有饭吃。所以我不需要去寻求帮助。”
But let’s say you fall and you clearly have like, you know, broken your wrist. You’re not going to sit there and go, I don’t need to do anything about that because they don’t have stage four cancer. You're going to be like, I’m going because I need to get my wrist repair. So we treat sort of physical health and mental health as two separate entities. One, of course, the mind and the body are all intertwined. And I think that with breakups, it’s the same thing. It’s like people think, well, it’s not that big of a deal after the first X amount of time. And breakups can really mark you depending on how they went down.
但是假设你摔倒了，显然你知道你的手腕断了。你不会坐在那里说，因为我没有得四期癌症，所以不需要做任何处理。你会说，我需要去治疗我的手腕。所以我们往往把身体健康和心理健康看作两个独立的实体。实际上，心灵和身体是紧密相连的。我认为在分手这件事上也是如此。很多人觉得，分手过了一段时间就没什么大不了的了。然而，分手可能会给你留下深刻的影响，具体取决于当时的情况。
Like, if it was really volatile, if it was one of these things where you got no sense of, if you were cheated on, if you didn’t understand why the breakup happened, like it was very surprising to you. You know, all those things. It can really be a different kind of breakup than a breakup where a person might be very painful, but you understand sort of why the breakup is happening. It doesn't mean you don't feel the loss, but there's something different about the quality of the breakup.
就像，当一段关系非常动荡时，如果你完全不明白自己是否被背叛了，或者不理解分手的原因，那对你来说可能是非常震惊的。所有这些情况，会让这种分手与另一种分手有所不同——即便那种分手也可能非常痛苦，但至少你能够理解分手的原因。这并不意味着你不会感到失去的痛苦，但这两种分手的性质确实有所不同。
And so then people tell stories about the breakup because they didn't get the real story. So the story now becomes, like, you don't really understand why the person is breaking up with you because they didn't communicate during the relationship that maybe they were unhappy. And now you watch them on social media. So you're watching a story and you have this whole story in your mind of, look at them. They're on this vacation or they're not even like with another person. They're just like, look, they look so happy, but it's social media. Of course they look happy.
因此，人们会编造关于分手的故事，因为他们没有得到事情的真相。于是，这个故事就变成了：你不太明白对方为什么要跟你分手，因为他们在关系中并没有表达过自己的不满。现在你通过社交媒体观察他们，看到的是一个故事，然后在脑海中构建了整个情节：看看他们，他们在度假，甚至并没有和其他人在一起，只是看上去很快乐，但这是社交媒体上的展现，他们当然会看上去很快乐。
People are not posting on social media, I'm so sad about my breakup generally. There's a whole, like, sort of subculture of people who do that, but it's a different thing. Very generational. Yes. Yes. But I mean, in general, you're having to, you sort of like, you want to move forward. And by the way, about grief, it's not like moving on because we're sort of shaped by every experience that we have, but it's about moving forward.
人们不会在社交媒体上发布“我对分手感到非常伤心”这样的内容。当然，确实有一些这样做的人存在，形成了一种亚文化，但这是另一种情况，是一种代际差异。是的，是的。不过，我的意思是，总体上来说，当你经历这些事情时，你需要或者说你想向前看。顺便说一下，关于悲伤，这并不是简单地“走出来”，因为我们的每一次经历都会影响我们，但关键在于继续前行。
So people always say about grief, you need to move on. No, you need to move forward. Let's just talk about that. So let’s say you have to move forward. It’s very hard to move forward when you’re watching the other person’s life. You’re not moving forward at all. They’re moving forward. Maybe you don’t really know. But why are you spending so much time watching someone else move forward? Can we focus on how you might move forward? Whatever that might look like. But it’s really hard when you have this like split screen of their life is happening and your life is happening.
人们总是说到悲伤时，会告诉你需要“走出来”。不，应该是“向前走”。让我们来讨论一下这点。假设你必须“向前走”，当你一直关注另一人的生活时，这真的是件很难的事。你没有在前进，倒是他们在向前走。也许你不太清楚。但为什么要花那么多时间去看别人如何向前走呢？我们能不能把注意力放在你自己的前进方式上呢？无论那是怎样的前进方式。但确实很难，当你感觉生活像是分屏一样，他们的生活在继续，你的生活也在继续。
I definitely want to talk about grief. Before we do that, I’d like to double click into this breakup thing in my observation and experience one of the hardest things about breakups is this idea that we want to somehow come to a common narrative. And there seems to be a lot of desire to kind of understand where the other person’s experience of what happened. And a very, I don’t think it’s intentional, but I think people can be somewhat destructive in a breakup by changing the whole, this notion like it was all an illusion or something.
我非常想谈谈悲伤这个话题。在此之前，我想更深入地探讨一下分手这件事。在我的观察和亲身经历中，分手中最困难的事情之一就是我们想要找到一个共同的叙述方式。人们似乎特别想了解对方是如何看待发生的一切的。而且，我认为这不是刻意的，但人们在分手时可能会有一些破坏性的行为，比如把过去的关系说得像是完全是幻想或者其他类似的东西。
I’ve had enough relationships and breakups to realize that there’s love that continues. There’s things that you thought were love that weren’t. I mean, there’s love that doesn’t continue and there are all sorts of shapes and forms of this stuff. But that good, well-meaning people that take divergent paths, I’ve learned it doesn’t mean that anything else sometimes. It literally just means that. There isn’t a need to rewrite the script like it wasn’t what I thought. It actually was what I thought.
我经历过足够多的恋爱和分手之后，明白了有些爱会持续下去。有些你以为是爱的东西，其实并不是。我是说，有些爱不会持续下去，而这种事情有各种各样的形式。但我学到的是，即使是心地善良、有良好意图的人，也有可能走上不同的道路，这有时候并不意味着其他什么。它真的就只是那样。没必要重新审视过去，好像那不是我以为的那样。其实，那真的就是我当初想的那样。
And then it was something different. Or it just circumstances change or things change. I’m not trying to make light of this. I mean, I would argue I’m probably one of the least skilled people at breakups. Although I’ve gotten, quote, unquote, better at it. It’s always super painful. Like I’ve never had a breakup that didn’t really hurt. It doesn’t matter if I left or they left. That just didn’t really hurt. And I think it’s this idea of like, and this is why I think it’s an interesting perhaps segue to grief is that it’s almost like as something ends, we look back and we evaluate the story and try and figure out, was that real? Was it not real? How could that have been real? And then we’re here. There was all this hope and expectation. And I think about this a lot.
然后事情就不一样了，或者只是因为环境或事物改变。我并不是想轻描淡写这件事。我的意思是，我可能是最不擅长处理分手的人之一。尽管如此，我在所谓的分手方面已经有所进步，但分手总是非常痛苦的。我从来没有经历过一次不痛苦的分手，无论是我主动分手还是对方提出分手，伤害总是存在。我觉得有趣的是，这或许和悲伤有些相似，当事情结束时，我们回顾过去，评估这段经历，试图弄清楚这是否真实？如果真实的，为什么会有这样的结局？当初有那么多的希望和期待。我常常思考这些问题。
Yeah. So sometimes what the loss is about isn't so much about the other person. It's about the loss of what it feels like to be in a primary relationship. So you're losing the primary relationship and then it happens to be with this specific person. And so there were good qualities about that specific person and qualities that maybe weren't right for you. But what you're losing is the dailyness. So so much of what feels good about being in a primary relationship is, you know, you get to tell the person in the minutia of your day, the little things, the shared history and the shared experiences that become the shorthand and the inside jokes and the routine of, you know, you're flight landed. Who are you going to text? Oh, text your partner, right?
是的，有时候失去并不仅仅是因为失去了那个人，而是因为失去了作为主要关系中那种感觉。你失去的是主要关系，而恰好这个关系是和某个特定的人。因此，这个人可能有一些不错的品质，也可能有一些不适合你的地方。但你真正失去的是每天的那种亲密感。因为在主要关系中让人感到美好的部分是，你能和对方分享每天的小细节、共同的历史和经历，这些成为了你们之间的默契、内部的笑话和生活常规。比如，当你的飞机降落时，你下意识地想要联系的人就是你的伴侣。
You know, just the built in infrastructure of being in a primary relationship and someone who knows like, what kind of pizza you like. And, you know, all those little things that come from, you know, going through daily life together and you know, all the things about their families and you know, all the things about the people in their lives and the people they're talking about, like this friend and this boss and whatever, their co-workers. So it's this whole world that's been co-created. And then all of a sudden, when that person isn't there anymore, that the dailyness of your life changes drastically, like you're not waking up with that person. You're not eating meals with that person.
你知道，在一段亲密关系中，彼此之间就像有一种内置的默契，比如了解对方喜欢吃什么口味的披萨。还有一起经历日常生活中所有的小细节，熟悉彼此的家庭、朋友、同事，以及他们谈论的人——比如某个朋友、某个上司，等等。这样就共同创造了一个完整的世界。然而，突然有一天这个人不再在你身边时，你的日常生活会发生巨大的改变，比如你不再和这个人一起醒来、一起吃饭。
You're not talking about what's for dinner with that person. You're not saying you're wondering how that thing with their sister worked out, but you don't know now because, right? And you're losing the side kind of shared people too, like you might have liked that person's family a lot. Sometimes you stay in touch with the family, but sometimes you don't. So like your world changes so much in the day to day. You're not just losing that person. You're losing an entire world that you were living in. And now your world looks so different and you have nothing to replace it with yet.
你不再和那个人讨论晚餐吃什么，也不再询问他们姐姐的事情进展如何，因为你现在已经不知道了，对吗？你还失去了与他们身边人的联系，比如你可能很喜欢他们的家人。有时候你会继续和他们家人保持联系，但有时候不会。因此，你的日常生活发生了很大的变化。你失去的并不仅仅是那个人，而是一个你曾经生活在其中的完整世界。现在你的世界变得如此不同，但你还没有找到新的东西来填补空缺。
So it doesn't mean you have to replace it with another partner. You might replace it with things in your own life, but you just, you know, breakups tend to happen. Maybe you saw the breakup coming, but you're not really imagining what it will be like after until you're in it. And you can't really really understand what it's like until you're in that breakup phase. So I think that makes it so hard because you're losing a lifestyle, right? Like the dailyness of your life. And you know, it's like it's like when you're in your relationship, you're in the present, but you're also in the future. So you imagine that the present was going to be the future.
所以这并不意味着你必须用另一个伴侣来取代它。你可以用自己生活中的其他事情来填补，但你知道，分手是常有的事。也许你早就预感到会分手，但直到身临其境时，你才真正想象事情会如何发展。而且，只有经历了分手阶段，才能真正了解那种感觉。我认为这就是为什么分手很难的原因，因为你失去的是一种生活方式，对吧？就像是你的日常生活。而当你在一段关系中时，你不仅活在当下，还憧憬着未来，所以你会认为现在的生活也会是未来的生活。
And now mother of all plot twists, the future was just taken away along with the present. So it's not just you're losing the day to day, you're losing what you imagine next year was going to be like in five years we're going to be like. So it's a huge thing. It's so interesting because in my most recent book, it starts with my breakup. And that's how I end up in therapy. And my whole thing is like, you know, the idiot compassion, oh, we were talking about with my friend of he's a jerk and he's terrible and you dodged a bullet. And my therapist, which who I thought was going to validate this position, didn't for the better.
现在，最大的剧情反转来了，未来随着现在一起消失了。因此，你不仅失去了每天的生活，还失去了你想象中的明年和五年后的样子。这是个巨大的事情。这很有趣，因为在我最新的书中，它从我的分手故事开始，这也是我怎么走进心理治疗的原因。一直以来，我都是一种"愚蠢的同情"，就像和朋友谈论的那样，说对方不怎么样，是个混蛋，你躲过了一劫。而我的治疗师，原以为会支持我这个看法，却没有，因为这样对我更好。
And so by the end of the book, you know, people even write in now they're like, oh, I can't believe I call him boyfriend in the book. I can't believe he did that. And I'm like, no, no, no, I was trying to say he's a good guy. Like you have to understand that I was seeing this through the lens of the breakup. And then over time, I see that I was responsible for this too. I had a role in this too. I chose not to see the things that I didn't want to see because I didn't want to live in that world of the breakup. Right. So, um, so I think it's it’s, uh, wanting what you were saying earlier about wanting to have a shared narrative like we feel so wounded by the fact that the person, let's say that they broke up with us, um, or even if you break up with them, that they don't see the relationship the way you saw it.
到书的结尾的时候，很多人甚至现在还写信来说：“哦，我简直不敢相信我在书里叫他男朋友。我不敢相信他竟然那样做。” 而我会说：“不，不，不，我是想说他是个好人。你得理解我是从分手的角度来看待这件事情的。” 随着时间的推移，我意识到我对此也有责任。我在这段关系中也扮演了一个角色。我选择视而不见那些我不想面对的事情，因为我不想活在分手的痛苦世界里。所以，我认为这和你之前提到的想要拥有一个共同的叙述有关。当对方和我们的感受不同，比如说他们和我们分手了，或者即使是我们和他们分手了，发现他们和我们对这段关系的看法不同，我们会感到深深的受伤。
Like they had a different experience of it. And you feel like, well, they're not seeing it in the right way. No, they're just seeing it. They are seeing it in the right way from their perspective. And I think that we have this way of wanting to heal the wound by they're saying, oh, no, no, you were great in this relationship. It was me or we were both great and it just didn't work. Yes. Yes. Right. Right. And we so want that and and the reality is that, um, your partner's going to see things about you that maybe you don't agree with or maybe they're true and that's why they hurt. I always find I miss the person's smell. Yes. It's those little things, those kind of intangibles. I think that takes the longest. Yeah. I have a really good audio memory too. I can like close my eyes. I've been able to do this since I was a kid and hear people's voices. And, um, yeah. Um, but like smells, I think we come to expect them.
就像他们对这件事情有不同的看法。而你会觉得，他们没有以正确的方式看待。其实不然，他们只是从他们的角度来看待问题，这对于他们来说是正确的。我觉得我们总是想通过说“哦，不，不是你的错，是我不好”或者“我们都很棒，只是没能走到最后”来治愈伤口。是的，是的。我们很希望这样。而现实是，你的伴侣会看到你身上某些你可能不同意的地方，或者那些地方确实存在，这也是为什么它们让你感到受伤。我总是发现我特别想念一个人的气味。是的，就是这些小细节，那些无形的东西。我觉得这才是需要最长时间去习惯的。我也有很好的声音记忆。我可以闭上眼睛，从小我就能做到，回忆起人们的声音。但是对于气味，我想我们渐渐习惯它们的存在。
Yeah. Um, and then we don't notice they're there. Yeah. And then the person's gone and then we're like, uh, it smells different here. So there's this theory. It's it's from the Gottmins who do this research on couples and they talk about the Bank of Goodwill that you need five deposits into the Bank of Goodwill for everyone with draw. And so we tend to when we're in a relationship, we don't like something about something that's happening in the relationship. We think about what's not working. We're taking all these withdrawals from the Bank of Goodwill, but like things like smell that's a deposit. Like you smell so good. I really like your smell. Do we say that enough? Do we focus on the things like how many deposits are we actually making so that when we do make a withdrawal, it doesn't empty the bank account.
好的。那么，当我们在某种情况下感觉不到他们的存在时，人就突然消失了，然后我们会觉得，呃，这里的气味变得不一样了。有一个理论是由Gottman夫妇提出来的，他们研究夫妻关系，提出了"善意银行"的概念。他们认为，每次从善意银行提款时，你需要先存入五次。在一段关系中，当我们对某些事情不满意时，往往会想着这些不好的方面，这就好比我们在不断从善意银行中提款。但是，比如气味这样的事情，其实是一种存款。比如说：你闻起来真好，我真的很喜欢你的味道。我们真的有足够多地表达这样的观点吗？我们是否关注自己到底做了多少善意的存款，以确保当我们需要提取时，不会把这个"银行账户"清空。
And it's usually when a breakup happens that all of a sudden we think about all those things that we didn't deposit, but now we miss, right? That we're sitting in our bank account and we don't have access to that account anywhere. The account's closed. But when the account was open, we didn't look at what we had in there. And I think that the people who are what I see with couples who are most successful are the people who do notice what's in the bank account even if they have to take a withdrawal every now and again. I've always struck by how people talk about their partners when their partners aren't around. Very important. The other day this kid came up to me and the Jim kid. He was probably in his 30s, but there I go again. He was a podcast fan. We were just chatting. I like to ask you like, what do you do?
通常，当分手发生时，我们突然开始想起那些我们没有投入的事情，但现在却开始怀念，对吧？就像我们存款的银行账户，我们再也无法访问，因为账户已经关闭。但在账户开放的时候，我们却没有去关注里面有什么。我发现，那些最成功的情侣通常都是那些即使需要偶尔取一点，他们也会注意账户里有什么的人。我总是对人们在伴侣不在场时谈论伴侣的方式感到惊讶，这非常重要。前几天，有一个年轻人走过来找我，虽然他说三十多岁了，但我还是习惯性地称他为“吉姆小子”。他是我的播客粉丝，我们聊了几句。我总是喜欢问，"你是做什么的？"
And then we were talking about something. He said, you know, my girlfriend, and then we got to some discussion about travel and South America or something. And then at one point he said, oh, yeah, she's like my flower. And the way he said it, I was like, wow, that's beautiful. You know, again, I'm half Latin. And what I haven't heard that enough. And I was like, wow. And I said, that's amazing that you just referred to her as a flower. He goes, yes, she's just, she's like the flower in my life. And I was like, wow, like you don't hear that in that, that often. I also don't get into conversations like this very often. But somehow he just shared that spontaneously. And she wasn't there to hear it. I can't remember the guy's name, forgive me. She'll never know that I that he referred to her that way. It was really beautiful.
然后我们在聊天。他提到，“你知道吗，我的女朋友……”，之后我们就开始聊起关于旅行和南美洲的话题。然后有一刻他突然说：“是的，她就像我的花。”他说这话的方式让我感到很震撼，真美。我想，作为半个拉丁裔，我居然不常听到这样的话。我就说：“你用花来比喻她，真是美妙。”他说：“是的，她就像我生命中的一朵花。”我心想，哇，这种表达不常听到。而且我也不常参与这样深入的对话。但不知怎的，他自然而然地分享了这番话。当时她不在那里，无法听到这个称赞。我忘记那位男士的名字了，不过请原谅。她可能永远也不会知道，他是这样称呼她的。这真是太美了。
And there's certain people like I heard Rogan one day talking about his wife on a podcast. He was like, she's just so nice. Like he just the appreciation he has for her in the in the in the small details of how he refers to her. And those are just two examples. And then I could give a bunch of negative examples about people. I don't want to put it on one or the other side of the male female dynamic. But like, but when people say like, oh, yeah, like they're a pain in my ass. Or like the referring to people as they're old lady or their old man. Like that's that's an interesting, but kind of in my mind, not the sweetest way. Maybe it could be. Maybe it depends on the tone. Anyway, I'm I'm casting a lot of shadows and light where we're perhaps I shouldn't, but that interaction was delightful.
有些人，比如我听到罗根有一天在播客上谈到他的妻子。他说她真是太好了。他在提到她时，对她那些微小细节的赞赏之情溢于言表。这是两个例子，我也可以举出很多负面的例子。我不想单单就男女关系中的某一方发表看法，但有的人会说：“唉，他们真让人烦。”或者用“老太婆”或者“老头子”来称呼对方。我觉得这是一种有趣但不太甜蜜的方式，可能也取决于语气。无论如何，我可能不应该对这些互动做太多的评价，但那次交流确实很愉快。
And I thought awesome for him and awesome for her. That's why I often start a couple session with how did you meet? Because usually when people come to couples therapy, they think the first thing that's going to happen is you're going to say, so what's going on? What's not, you know, what's then they'll start with the problem. And then they're like in that withdrawal from the bank account space. So I like to say, well, tell me how you met and immediately usually there's like, oh, and they have this great story, right? And they they remember what they love about the other person. So we start with that. And you can see them sort of remembering who the person is that they fell in love with. Like, oh, I thought he was so cute or, you know, oh, it was just really we were friends for a year.
我觉得这对他来说很棒，对她来说也很棒。这也是为什么我经常在情侣咨询时以“你们是怎么认识的？”作为开场白。因为通常当人们来做情侣治疗时，他们以为我会首先问：“发生了什么问题？”他们便开始讨论问题，然后就陷入一种消极的状态中。所以我喜欢从“告诉我你们是怎么认识的”开始，通常情况下，他们会露出一种愉快的神情，并开始讲述一个美好的故事。在这个过程中，他们会回忆起自己爱上对方的原因。这样一来，你可以看到他们开始回忆起那个自己曾爱上的人，可能会说：“哦，我觉得他当时好可爱”或者“哦，那时候我们已经做了一年的朋友……”
And I didn't know if he liked me and then this happened. And then I really admired this about him or her, right? And so they start in this different space. And I think I think about it like in this going to sound like a weird metaphor. But you think about like nonstick pans versus like, you know, a regular pan that you have to put something in so that the stuff doesn't stick to it. When I think about like, there are people for whom the good stuff, they're like Teflon pans. The good stuff doesn't stick. But the bad stuff about the other person sticks like a non-state like a like a pan that sticks, right?
我不知道他是否喜欢我，然后发生了这一切。之后，我非常欣赏他（或她）的这个特点。所以他们开始时处于不同的状态。我觉得这有点像一个奇怪的比喻，就像不粘锅和普通锅的区别。想象一下，有些人对于美好的事物就像不粘锅，美好的东西在他们身上并不会留下痕迹，而关于另一个人的不好的东西却像普通锅一样沾住不放。
So it's like you think about like, what is sticking about your partner when you when you think about like what they're putting in the pan, right? Like, are you in a Teflon pan for good things? Or are you in a different kind of pan for good things? Because you have to think like, what am I focusing on? Where does my attention go? And so, you know, why are you focusing on the things that are upsetting you so much? And you know, there are there are certain things that you're never going to change about your partner. Like, your partner, we don't get to order up our partners, all a cart.
所以，当你思考伴侣那些让你印象深刻的地方时，就像在想他们在“锅”里放了些什么一样。比如说，对于他们的优点来说，你是用“特氟龙锅”还是别的锅呢？因为你需要考虑自己在关注什么，你的注意力放在哪里。那么，为什么你总是把注意力放在那些让你心烦的事情上呢？有些关于你伴侣的事情是你永远无法改变的。我们不能“按需定制”伴侣。
We don't get to say like, I'll take these qualities of my partner, but I'll take this thing that I don't like about them on the side. You don't get to do that. People come, there are no substitutions. They come as a whole. That's it. That's what's offered on the menu. And so people think, well, I can change the thing that I don't like and I can like make that person all a cart. You can't do that. You can't order them up that way. So there are always going to be things that irritate you or there are suboptimal in a perfect world about your partner.
我们不能说，我喜欢伴侣的这些优点，但我不喜欢的部分可以放在一边。你不能这么做。人是整体的，没有替代品。就是这样，菜单上提供的就是这样。所以有人会觉得，我可以改变自己不喜欢的部分，把对方变成自己想要的样子。你做不到。你不能按这种方式"点餐"。所以，在完美的世界里，总会有一些事情是关于伴侣让你感到烦恼或者不那么理想的。
Are you going to focus on that? Or are you going to focus on the things that you really love about your partner? There's a saying from 12 step, which is identified. Don't compare, which is, like, because you'll hear people outside of 12 step talking about, for instance, you know, like, well, he's this and this and this and ambitious and this and that, but he's like kind of emotionally unavailable. But he's more available and people will talk about male or female partners, right? Or potential partners is like, or people that they're dating as if you could clooch together the best of all people and get this like perfect tapestry of the person that's got all the features you want.
你会关注那些不如意的地方吗？还是会专注于你爱人身上你真正喜欢的地方？有一句来自12步康复程序的格言是“要识别，不要比较”，意思是，因为你会听到一些人会这样说：“他有这个优点、那个优点，很有上进心，但是情感上有点不太投入。”而另一位可能情感更投入。人们常常这样谈论他们的伴侣或潜在对象，就好像可以把所有人的优点拼凑在一起，得到一个完美无缺的理想伴侣。
Because yeah, some people are a little more easy going like hearted and sometimes not always less ambitious. Those things in my experience tend to correlate not always. Some people are super hard driving. They get it done and they have the capacity to be immense providers, but they have less time and sometimes they're not as emotionally available. Again, stereotyping like crazy here. But people get this idea that they're sort of like through the comparison they can arrive at the perfect person.
因为确实，一些人性格比较随和，内心开朗，但这并不总是意味着他们不够有野心。在我的经验中，这些特质有时会相关，但不总是如此。有些人非常勤奋，能完成任务，并具备成为杰出供养者的能力，但他们的时间比较少，有时情感上不太容易接近。当然，这种说法有些过于刻板印象。但人们往往通过这种比较，认为可以找到一个完美的人。
When, in fact, I think appreciation not being teflon about the positive stuff comes from kind of shutting out the idea that there's an alternative. But of course, you don't want to end up in a situation where the person is, you know, not truly not good for you, right? Well, right. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. I don't think you are. But yeah, with that caveat, I think that accepting that people are complicated and there is no clooching together of people at some point you make a choice.
实际上，我认为要真正欣赏积极的一面，就需要抛开那种总是认为有其他选择的想法。当然，你不希望最后发现自己处在一个不适合的人的身边，对吧？没错，这不是我想讨论的。我也不认为你是这个意思。不过，在此基础上，我认为要接受人是复杂的这个事实，人与人之间并不存在完美契合的情况，在某个时刻你需要做出选择。
And this is when people cheat, what often happens is there's a there's a specific quality about their partner maybe. Sometimes it has nothing to do with your partner, by the way. And I think this is so important to talk about when we talk about infidelity that often it really has nothing to do with the partner that somebody is expecting their partner again, going back to vitality and aliveness to provide that for them. And if the partner doesn't provide that for them, but your partner shouldn't be providing that for you, they're additive. They're not providing a lack or deficit in you.
当人们劈腿时，通常会发生一种情况，就是他们可能会对伴侣有某种具体的看法。有时这其实与伴侣无关。我认为在谈论出轨时，重要的一点是，出轨往往与伴侣没有直接关系。很多时候，人们期待伴侣能为他们提供活力和生命力。如果伴侣没有能提供这些，并不是伴侣的错；因为伴侣并不是来填补你内在缺失的，他们是你生活的附加价值，而不是来弥补你的不足的。
That sometimes that's why people cheat. But other times they say like, there's this quality about my partner that is really, you know, like, I don't like it. Like, let's take, for example, I wish that my partner were more, let's say, ambitious. So they go and they like cheat with someone is more ambitious. But then the person isn't loving or isn't communicative or isn't, you know, whatever the other good qualities that the partner they have has. So they think that by replacing this one trait that the other person is going to have all the other great traits that the existing partner already has. And generally you're trading like one set of problems for another set of problems.
有时，人们出轨的原因就在这里。但有时他们会说，我的伴侣有某种让我不太喜欢的特质。比如说，我希望我的伴侣更有雄心壮志，所以他们可能会出轨，找一个更有野心的人。但那个人可能不够有爱心、不善于沟通，或者缺乏他们伴侣其他优秀的品质。他们以为只要找到一个具备这种特质的人，其他的优点也会随之而来。然而，通常情况下，这只不过是用一组问题去替换另一组问题。
So it's interesting that people think like, I can fix this problem because this person has that thing that I really want. Now, if your partner doesn't have any of that, like it's a degree, it's on a spectrum. So is your partner not ambitious at all? Or is your partner ambitious about different kinds of things? Like, they want to be a really good parent. And they're really, you know, invested in that. Or they want to do something like philanthropic. And they're really invested in that. But it doesn't pay a lot. You know, so like, what are they, like, what energizes them? Where's their purpose? Where is their meaning?
所以有趣的是，有些人会觉得自己可以解决问题，因为他们认为对方拥有自己非常想要的东西。那么如果你的伴侣没那些东西，比如说这是一个程度问题。在这个“光谱”上，你的伴侣是完全没有雄心，还是对不同的事情有雄心？比如说，他们想成为一个好家长，并对此投入很多；或者他们想做一些慈善之类的事情，并对此投入很多精力，但这些事情可能收入不多。那么，是哪些事情让他们有动力？他们的目标是什么？他们的意义在哪里？
You know, there's different kinds of ambitious. I feel like placing one's attention on the good things as much as possible. And really letting those fill us up as much as possible is really key. I didn't say this. I borrowed this, but you know, that two of the most dangerous words in the English language are if only, this idea, like if only this, you know, because for two reasons, one is very unlikely that if only comes true. But the other one is it takes our attention away from seeing what's there. Right. So I like to say it's the difference between the what if and the what is.
你知道，野心有不同的类型。我觉得尽可能多地关注美好的事物，并真正让这些事物充实自己，这非常重要。这不是我说的，而是我借用的一句话：英文中最危险的两个词之一就是“要是……就好了”。因为，一方面，这种想法实现的概率很小；另一方面，它会使我们无法看到眼前的事物。所以，我喜欢把这称为“如果怎样”和“事实如此”之间的区别。
And people who focus too much on the what if, what if this? They lose sight of what is. And usually they're so much good that they really don't want to give up in the what is. So if you're going to keep focusing on the what if you can, you blind yourself to the what is. And I think the what if is a big trap. Yeah, I think this notion of attention and appreciation just seems so so fundamental. It's kind of like think of it. So I am sort of an amateur photographer. And I think about it like you can take a picture of you can like focus on the same subject.
那些过于关注“如果这样，如果那样”的人，往往忽视了现实是什么。现实中通常有很多美好的东西，他们并不想放弃。所以，如果你持续把注意力放在“如果”上，就会看不清现实。而且，我认为“如果”是一个很大的陷阱。我觉得关注和欣赏这个概念非常重要。可以这样想，我算是一个业余摄影师，我觉得这就像你可以拍摄同一个主题，但如果一直纠结于“如果”就会错过眼前的美好。
You can focus on one part of it or you can just move the camera slightly. And then you're focused on something entirely different. But it's the same thing that I'm taking a picture of. Right. So I always say to people like can you your focus is always on this? Can you like move the camera slightly and focus, you know, find a different part to focus the camera on? If you're always focusing on something that makes you unhappy, you're going to be unhappy. So why don't you just move the camera and focus on the other things? You get to choose. People think they have no choice in the matter.
你可以专注于其中的一个部分，或者稍微移动一下相机，这样你就会关注完全不同的东西。但其实我拍的照片还是同一样东西。所以我总是对别人说，你总是把注意力放在某个点上。能不能稍微移动一下相机，找个不同的地方对焦呢？如果你总是专注于让自己不开心的事情，那你就会不开心。所以为什么不移动一下相机，关注其他事情呢？这是你的选择。很多人以为自己无从选择。
Right. Like well, my brain just goes there. My mind just goes there. It's like no, you get to choose what you put your attention on. You actually have a choice. What I love about what's coming through here is that you emphasize the role of these unconscious processes. We default to people that aren't healthy for us sometimes, not always. And yet you also emphasize that we have a lot of agency. These days, it seems like there's a default toward looking outward. You know, for all that's been said about meditation and reflection and journaling on this podcast and others, like we all know these tools are available.
好的。就像……我的大脑自然而然地会那样想。我的思想就是会往那个方向去。但实际上，我们有权利选择将注意力放在哪里。我们确实有选择的余地。我喜欢的是，你强调了无意识过程的作用。我们有时会倾向于依赖那些对我们不健康的人，但并非总是如此。而你也强调了我们拥有很大的自主权。如今，似乎更倾向于向外看。尽管这个播客和其他地方对冥想、反思以及写日记这些方式已经讲了很多，我们都知道这些工具是可用的。
They basically just take time. I mean, with meditation, you don't even need a pen and paper. But we tend to look outward for answers. Do you ever give homework to your patients to just like think or journal or is there work tend to be more behavioral? You know, it's kind of like I feel like the work that we do in the room is about understanding. And you know, and understanding sort of like where the gap is between what we say we want and what we actually do. So usually there is it's all about what is in that gap, what is getting in the way because we're very clear by the way about what we want usually.
它们基本上只是需要时间。我的意思是，对于冥想，你甚至不需要笔和纸。但我们往往会向外寻找答案。你有没有给患者布置作业，比如让他们思考或写日记，还是他们的工作更偏向行为上的呢？你知道，我觉得我们在房间里做的工作是关于理解的。我们要理解我们所说的想要的东西和我们实际所做的之间的差距是什么。通常来说，这一切都关于在这个差距中是什么，是什么阻碍了我们，因为我们通常对自己想要的东西是非常清楚的。
And then there's like some gap between our behavior that isn't moving in that direction. In fact, moves us often either keeps us stuck or moves us in the opposite direction. So it's kind of out in the world between sessions. We're working on the behavior around what is getting in the way in that gap. And then we're doing kind of the thinking and the feeling in the session. I don't mean that people aren't thinking and feeling outside of session. It means they're using their feelings and their thoughts differently. They're taking different actions with the feelings and thoughts outside of the session.
然后，我们的行为中有一些与目标不一致的地方。事实上，这些行为常常让我们停滞不前，甚至朝着相反的方向走。所以，在每次讨论之间的日子里，我们要处理那些影响我们进步的行为问题。我们在会议中进行思考和感受，并不是说人们在会议之外就不思考和感受了，而是说他们在会外以不同的方式使用这些感受和想法，并采取不同的行动。
Do you ever tell people whatever whenever you think that just do the opposite? So it's really funny because so many people say like your gut knows, right? Like listen to your gut. And for some people because it's historical, right? Like what's in their gut? It's like no, no, don't listen to your gut. And it sounds really strange for a therapist to say to somebody, no, don't listen to your gut. But sometimes you literally have to say to people whatever your first instinct is there, do the opposite. Do the thing that feels uncomfortable because your gut is what feels comfortable. And the thing that feels comfortable again is the familiar and the familiar isn't necessarily the thing that is going to lead you to where you want to go.
你有没有告诉过别人，无论何时只要想到什么就反着做？这真的很有趣，因为很多人都说要相信自己的直觉，对吧？但对于某些人来说，因为有过往的经历，他们的直觉可能并不可靠。所以即使听起来很奇怪，一个心理治疗师可能会对某个人说，不要听从你的直觉。有时候，你真的需要告诉这些人：“无论你的第一反应是什么，反其道而行之。” 去做那些让你不舒服的事情，因为你的直觉往往指向让你感到舒适的方向。而舒适的事物，通常是熟悉的事物，而熟悉的事物并不一定能把你带到你想要去的地方。
So it's not like I want people to second guess themselves or not trust themselves. And so sometimes you have to learn how to hear that very, very quiet voice inside you because your gut is the louder one, right? Your gut is your first instinct. And it's kind of the pre-program, the pattern, the automatic response. Like if you think when we talk about sort of like neurological pathways, there's this like freeway that's been built with this one response. Like here's the input, right? And here's the map that follows. Like this person did this and you're going to like travel down that freeway because that's been the well-paved road because you've done it a million times. It doesn't really work out for you.
所以，我并不是希望人们对自己产生怀疑或者不信任自己。有时候你需要学会倾听内心非常、非常微弱的声音，因为你的直觉是更响亮的那个，对吧？直觉是你的第一反应，像是预先设定的程序、固定的模式、自动化的反应。就像我们谈论神经路径时说的那样，那是一条已经建好的反应高速公路：输入信息，然后跟随地图做出反应。比如某个人做了某件事，你会沿着这条高速公路前进，因为这是条铺好的路，你已经这样做过无数次。尽管如此，这样的反应方式对你并不总是有效。
I want people to create kind of side roads and different roads. And let's take a different path. And let's kind of dig out a new, like a new road, right? That now, so your first instinct is still going to be like, let's get on the freeway. And I'm like, no, let's take a side road. Let's do something a little bit different. Let's take a different path. And let's, that path will now become the new freeway because you're going to keep going down. You know, we're going to dig out that path. The freeway is going to not be traffic. Don't we're going to shut down that freeway eventually. And you're going to have a new freeway that's your automatic path. So right now you've got to do the opposite to build this new freeway.
我希望人们能够创造出一些小路和不同的道路。让我们走一条不同的路，开辟出一条新的道路。起初，你可能本能地想走高速公路，但我希望你走小路，尝试一些不一样的选择。走这条不同的路，随着不断前进，这条路就会变成新的高速公路。最终，我们会关闭旧的高速公路，你会拥有一条新的自动通畅的高速路。因此，现在你需要做一些不同以往的事情，来建造这条新的高速路。
I just mixed 20 metaphors. But the point is that sometimes your gut is just taking you down a well-trodden path that is not the best path for you. There's a great line in that movie, High Fidelity, based on the Nick Horn's new novel, which I also highly recommend where he's like, you know, people tell me that we should listen to our gut. Well, after 30 years, I've come to the conclusion that my gut has shipped for brains. He's just realizing that his reflex on what to do with, you know, his relationship life is completely off. Some people will hear what we're talking about right now. And we'll say, yeah, but my gut also tells me when I'm in danger.
我刚刚混用了20个比喻。但关键是，有时候你的直觉可能在引导你走上一条看似熟悉但并非最好的路。电影《失恋排行榜》里有句台词很好，这部电影改编自尼克·霍恩比的新小说，我也强烈推荐这本书，主人公说：“有人告诉我，我们应该听从直觉。但经过30年，我得出的结论是，我的直觉简直糟透了。”他意识到自己对待感情生活的直觉完全不靠谱。有些人听到我们现在谈论的话题时可能会说："但我的直觉也会告诉我什么时候有危险。"
We're obviously not talking about when you can sense danger. So here's the thing. So what feels dangerous sometimes? So your gut is trying to protect you. So what feels dangerous is going into this new situation because it's uncomfortable to do something different. So your gut is saying, oh, let's do the comfortable thing that we've always done. Even if the comfortable thing makes you miserable, let's do the comfortable thing that we've always done because it feels very dangerous to try this new thing. But sometimes doing the thing that feels dangerous is actually less dangerous.
我们显然不是在谈论你能感觉到危险的时候。事情是这样的，有时候什么事情让你感到危险呢？你的直觉是想保护你的。因为做一些不同的事情会让你感到不舒服，所以进入这种新情况感觉很危险。你的直觉会说，哦，让我们做一直以来舒服的事情吧。即使这些舒服的事情让你痛苦不已，我们还是选择去做那些一直以来习惯的事情，因为尝试新鲜事物感觉很危险。但有时候，做那些感觉危险的事情实际上风险更小。
So in other words, people say a lot of times people say I don't want to take a risk. It's too risky. But sometimes the safest thing you can do is to take a risk. Doing the safe thing is actually, you know, you say it's too risky. If the safest thing you can do is to take a risk because it's going to lead you closer to what you want to accomplish or the thing that you're trying to get toward. I completely agree. I also in my life, I've had the experience of I've taken big risks with my career multiple times and it's always worked out. Thank goodness. A lot of my teen years and 20s and 30s were spent learning to overcome the adrenaline response.
换句话说，很多人常常说“我不想冒险，太冒险了。”然而，有时候你能做的最安全的事情就是去冒险。你认为最安全的选择实际上是冒险，因为这会让你更接近你想实现的目标或想要得到的东西。我完全同意。在我的生活中，我也多次在职业生涯中冒过大险，谢天谢地，每次结果都很好。我青少年时期以及二三十岁的时候，很多时间都用来学习如何克服肾上腺素反应。
And I learned to take progressively more and more risk and ended up having a air failure, scuba diving, KJX diving with great white sharks. I don't say this to sound tough. I said it's like, what was I thinking? I took it too far. So I think learning to overcome the adrenaline response and be calm and adrenaline has its value. I also took tremendous risk in my personal life getting involved with people I never should have gotten involved with. And I blame myself. I don't blame them. I mean, I was in choice. So I can imagine that some people are so averse to danger that they don't put themselves into circumstances in which they could really come to thrive.
我逐渐学会了不断地承受更大的风险，最终在潜水时遇到了供氧故障，还和大白鲨一起进行了KJX潜水。我不是为了显得自己很勇敢才说这些，而是想说，当时我在想什么呢？我把风险承受得太过了。所以，我认为学习如何克服肾上腺素的反应并保持冷静是很有价值的。不过，我也在个人生活中冒了很大的风险，和一些我从不该接触的人有了牵扯。我怪自己，不怪他们，因为那是我的选择。我可以理解有些人非常害怕危险，以至于不会让自己进入那些可能会真正成长的环境中。
And some people are just wired to go into the fire to the point where it's destructive, either with physical pursuits or romantic relationships. I'll take it outside my own story. I mean, I've ever a friend, a dear friend who was in an incredibly physically abusive relationship number 12. And she eventually came to the conclusion that her threat sensing threshold was just way too high. Did some really good work to understand why that was and realized that her fear response didn't kick in until it was like a nine alarm fire. And so she needed to listen to that as you mentioned that like super quiet whisper early on because anyone else who didn't have her history, which is sadly a very, very challenging history in her family would have immediately been like, yeah, I'm out. But she was like, this is normal.
有些人天生就会进入“火中”，无论是在体能方面还是恋爱关系上，而这种倾向可能会带来破坏性影响。我就不拿大自己的故事来说了。我有一个很亲密的朋友，她曾经处在一个极其虐待性的关系中，换过12个伴侣后才意识到自己对威胁的感知门槛太高了。经过认真反思和努力工作，她找到了原因，意识到她的恐惧反应要等到情况极端时才会启动。她需要倾听那种很早期、非常微弱的警示信号，因为其他没有她那种不幸家庭背景的人，早就会意识到不对劲并离开。但她却觉得这一切“很正常”。
Yeah. When I was in medical school, I remember the people who wanted to work in the ER were like, I want to do emergency medicine were people often who grew up in environments where danger was a part of it. So they're used to that. And it doesn't really strike them as like their their sense of danger. Their barometer is different from maybe a different person's. I think of it as like a thermostat. When you think about like, let's say you want to set your thermostat at like 72 degrees, right? Some people their thermostat is off because in their house like they did the slightest thing and their parents treated it like it was a huge horrible mistake and they're bad and it was an emergency, right? So they don't know how to calibrate like what does 72 actually feel like or the opposite like some big thing happened and their parents under reacted. And so they don't really know kind of like what is what does 72 feel like? I don't really know what that like good temperature is like.
好的。在我上医学院的时候，我记得那些想在急诊室工作的人通常来自充满危险的环境。所以他们对此很习惯，对他们来说，危险的感觉并不像其他人那么强烈。他们的“危险感知器”可能与普通人不同。我把它想象成一个温度调节器。比如说，如果你想把家里的温度设定在72度，有些人的温度调节器是不正常的，因为他们在家里，即使是最小的错误，父母也会当成大错来对待，并且表现得很紧张。因此，他们不知道72度到底是什么感觉。相反的情况是，有些重要的事情发生了，但他们的父母却反应不足，所以他们也搞不清楚什么才是合适的“舒适温度”。
So I think that there's a lot of people who stay in situations that are like it's like other people would say, whoa, it's like 100 degrees in here. Get out. There's a fire, right? And this person's like, no, it just feels like 72. They don't know. And so it's really about recalibrating and I think when we talk about risk and danger, you have to learn how to calibrate your own thermostat. And I think that that's that's really important. We talk about the difference between productive anxiety and unproductive anxiety. So unproductive anxiety is there's some kind of danger. And I'm going to ruminate and ruminate and ruminate. And I'm thinking about it all the time and somehow that's going to keep me safe because I'm thinking about it. And then there's productive anxiety which is, oh, it's good that I sense the danger because I'm going to do something about this like I have a plan for how to deal with this.
我认为有很多人待在一些情况下，其他人会觉得：“哇，这里简直像100度，有火灾，快跑！”，而这个人却觉得：“不，这里只有72度”，他们不知道真正的情况。因此，关键在于重新调整自己的感知。我们谈到风险和危险时，你需要学会如何校准自己的感受，就像调节温度计一样。我认为这非常重要。同时，我们要区分有效的焦虑和无效的焦虑。无效的焦虑是，觉得有危险，然后不停地想，不停地想，认为这样就能让自己安全。而有效的焦虑是，感知到危险时，意识到这是好事，因为这会促使我采取行动，有应对计划。
So it might be I'm in this relationship and it just doesn't feel right. But and this person is is acting this way toward me and I know I shouldn't be treated this way. But I don't know. Maybe it's okay. That's not productive. That's just anxiety. You're just circling, ruminating. Productive anxiety to be like, something's wrong. Like I shouldn't be treated this way. So my plan is I'm going to try to talk to my partner about this. And we're going to go to therapy about this and see if it improves. And if it doesn't, I'm going to leave to find a different relationship. You're right. You want to sense danger. But the question is, is it productive or is it unproductive? What do we do with it?
所以，可能我现在处在这段关系中，但总觉得不对劲。对方用这种方式对待我，我知道我不该被这样对待。但我不知道，可能这样也没关系。这种想法是没有用的，只是在焦虑、反复思考。真正有用的焦虑应该是这样的：有什么不对劲，我不该被这样对待。所以我的计划是，我会试着和我的伴侣谈一谈，然后我们会去做心理咨询，看看情况能否改善。如果没有改善，我会选择离开，寻找新的关系。你是对的，我们需要感知危险。但问题是，这种感知是有用的还是无用的？我们该如何处理这种感知呢？
So people when I say like, trust your gut, but somebody might say, well, my gut is that like when things are really unpleasant, you stick with it because my parents stuck with my other parent when things are really unpleasant. That's what you do. Right. So that doesn't make sense. So I think that do the opposite in that case. It's like, oh, you think you're supposed to stay in this case because your parents did, like do the opposite. See what happens if you do something different. We hear that there's value to being able to be on one's own. Like, you know, some people seem to always need to be in a relationship. And some people probably don't.
所以，当我说相信你的直觉时，有人可能会说，我的直觉是，当事情非常不愉快时，你要坚持下去，因为我父母在情况糟糕时也坚持在一起。这就是应该做的，对吧？可这听起来不太合理。我认为在这种情况下应该反其道而行之。比如，你觉得因为父母坚持下去了，你也应该坚持。那么尝试做相反的事情，看看如果选择不同会有什么结果。我们常听说，能够独立存在是有价值的。有些人似乎总是需要在一段关系中，而有些人可能并不需要。
But do you think there's value to people really understanding themselves first? I know some couples that got together in like their first year of college that are still together. They have kids now in college, which is a trip. And they seem super happy. They are super happy from what I know. And I know people that have had many relationships and then find somebody and some people take time on their own. Some people don't. How important is this notion about knowing oneself really? Yeah. So when you look at what are the factors that determine the success of a relationship or a marriage? Emotional maturity is number one. Number two, by the way, it's flexibility that being with someone incredibly rigid is very hard to find rigid.
但是你觉得人们首先真正了解自己有价值吗？我认识一些在大学一年级就走到一起的情侣，他们一直到现在还在一起。他们的孩子现在也上大学了，这真是不可思议。而且他们看起来非常幸福。我所知道的是，他们真的很幸福。我也认识一些经历过多段感情后才找到合适的人，有些人则喜欢先花些时间独处，有些人则不这样做。究竟多了解自己有多重要呢？是的，当你考虑哪些因素决定了关系或婚姻的成功时，情感成熟是首要因素。其次，灵活性也很重要，因为和一个特别固执的人在一起是 很困难的。
Rigid is things have to be this way. In the practical space, like toothpaste has to be on the right, not on the left. And emotionally rigid. Like, this is wrong. This is right. This is the way you do it. This is not the way you do it. You behave this way. You don't behave this way. As opposed to people of different personalities, they're different ways of communicating. And yes, the rigidity around sort of like the household, of course, too. But just a rigid personality. You know, like, I can't leave it this time. I have to leave it this time. We have to be here now, you know, like whatever we can't. There's no flexibility around anything or even flexibility around plants. Like, when you get married, you don't know what five years, 10 years down the line is going to be like, are you flexible with how you're moving in whatever direction? The other person is moving in whatever direction.
刚性意味着事情必须按照特定的方式进行。在实际生活中，比如牙膏必须放在右边，而不是左边。在情感上也很僵化，比如，这样做是错的，那样做是对的。这个才是你应该采取的方式，而那个不是。你必须这样表现，而不能那样表现。而不同性格的人有着不同的交流方式。是的，在家庭事务上也有一些僵化的地方，但更重要的是一种僵化的性格。比如，我不能在这个时间离开，我必须在那个时间离开。我们现在必须在这里，似乎没有任何事情可以灵活处理，甚至对于计划的灵活性也没有考虑。比如，当你结婚时，你无法预测五年、十年后会是什么样子。你是否能够在不断变化的方向中保持灵活？另一个人也在变化中前进。
Like, if you need things to be static, that's very rigid. And it's hard because people are not static. There are things about their core personality that tend to be static, but people evolve. And so you have to leave room for the evolution of their three entities. There's you. There's the other person and there's the relationship. And all three of those entities are going to evolve over time. And if you don't have flexibility and you insist that they stay exactly the same, that's going to be problematic. Going back to whether somebody needs to spend time alone before they get into a relationship or how much you need to know yourself before you get into a relationship, I think people have this misconception that they have to be fully formed and then before they can get into a relationship.
如果你需要一切保持不变，那就太僵化了。这很难，因为人并不是固定不变的。他们的核心个性有些部分可能较为稳定，但人是会成长和变化的。因此，你必须为他们三方面的变化留出空间。这三方面就是你、对方，以及你们之间的关系。这三者都会随着时间而改变。如果你不够灵活，坚持一切保持不变，那就会出现问题。回到是否有人需要在进入一段关系之前独处一下，或者在进入关系之前需要多了解自己这个问题，我认为人们有一个误解，就是他们认为自己必须完全成熟，才能进入一段关系。
And the thing is that you grow in connection with others. And so people you're saying you're so surprised that these people met in college and they've been together all this time. And of course, they were so young. Oh, no, I'm not surprised. No, no, no, I'm envious. Okay. Because they in a in a in a lightweight because they got their first jobs in parallel. They they sadly their parents passed away and probably they they went through a number of life evolutions together. Yeah, their life story is a commingled story. Yes, you know, it reminds me of I had a therapy client who was divorced and she was talking about dating again and she met someone great. And she said, I love this person so much and this person is actually a much better person for me.
其实，你会在人际关系中成长。所以，当人们说，对这些从大学相识并一路走到现在的人感到惊讶时，我并不意外，而是羡慕。他们因为在青年时期就已经相遇，一起经历了人生的重要阶段——第一份工作、父母去世，以及其他许多生活的变化——他们的生活故事早已交融在一起。这让我想起我曾有一个接受心理治疗的客户，她经历了离婚后重返约会市场，并遇到了一个非常合适的人。她说，她非常爱这个人，并认为这个人实际上更适合自己。
But there's a sadness that she said, he will never have met my parents because they had died. He will not know, like all these things about who I was when I was 25 or 35 or, you know, what it was like when I went through this particular thing in life. Or, you know, again, like the, you know, wasn't there with with the birth of our children. Didn't know our kids at that age. So it's true that there's something very important about having a shared history. It's not end all be all. She's happier in that second marriage. But there is something to be said about people think, well, I have to wait until I'm at this point before I can seriously consider dating someone who might become my life partner. And I think that you grow in connection with people or people say, you know, like I'm not ready to be in a relationship because I don't know enough about myself.
她感到一种悲伤，因为她说他永远无法见到我的父母，因为他们已经去世了。他不会知道我在25岁或35岁时是什么样子，也不会了解我在人生中特定经历中的感受。此外，他也没有陪伴过我们孩子的出生，不知道他们在那个年龄是什么样子。所以，拥有共同的历史确实非常重要，但这并不是一切。她在第二次婚姻中更快乐。然而，人们会觉得想要到达某个阶段才认真考虑与某人约会，最终成为人生伴侣，但我认为人与人之间的连接是随着相处而成长的。有些人说："我还没准备好进入一段关系，因为我对自己还不够了解。"
You're going to learn so much more about yourself when you are with someone because you're forced to someone's holding up a mirror to it's like how I say that, you know, I sang earlier that when I see couples, people grow individually so much faster because they're in relationship with someone and really having that mirror held up to them. I mean, you can sit there and think like by yourself, tell the, you know, tell you turn blue in the face, but the reality is no one's giving you feedback. You're not interacting. You're not pushing up against anything. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, certainly most of my evolution has been in relation to other things and not just romantic relationships. I mean, like, like jobs that didn't feel right that I eventually moved on to a different job. Like you just learned so much. Yeah. Based also on what that didn't work.
当你和某人在一起时，你会更加了解自己，因为你就像被迫面对一面镜子。我以前说过，当我看到情侣时，人们在恋爱中会更快地个人成长，因为他们真正面对的就是这面镜子。你可以一个人坐在那里不停地思考，但事实上，没有人给你反馈，你也没有互动，没有任何挑战。我完全同意，我的大部分成长都与其他事物有关，不仅仅是恋爱关系。比如说，一些让我不满意的工作促使我转向新的工作，你就能学到很多。从那些没有成功的事物中也能得到很多启发。
Yeah. I mean, there's real information there. I definitely want to go back to grief and talk about loss, but I feel like there's a hatch that we opened earlier that I'd like to peer into for a bit, which is this male-female distinction dynamic that nowadays is very prominent, especially in, I would say people like 40 and younger. It's so different now in terms of the dynamics of what boys and men hear about boys and men generally, what girls and women hear about girls generally and therefore how like we think about ourselves.
好的。我是说，这里确实有真实的信息。我肯定想回到讨论悲伤和失去的话题，但我觉得有个我们之前提到的小问题，我想再深入探讨一下，就是如今很明显的男女区别动态，尤其是在40岁及以下的人群中。这种动态非常不同，不论是男孩和男人听到关于男孩和男人的观点，还是女孩和女性听到关于女孩的观点，这些都影响了我们对自我的看法。
But you have a son. What do you think are some of the positive things that have evolved in this kind of landscape? And then what do you think are some of the things that are creating problems for the sake of romantic relationships, but also just relationship to self? I think romantically it's very hard for young people like in their teens and early 20s because they don't have kind of an infrastructure around romantic relationships.
但是你有一个儿子。你认为在这种环境中，有哪些积极的变化？另外，你认为有哪些因素在给浪漫关系以及个人关系带来问题？我认为，对于十几岁和二十出头的年轻人来说，建立浪漫关系是很困难的，因为他们缺乏相应的支持和指导。
There's not the typical kind of courting because it feels kind of old. Guys don't ask girls out on dates anymore. They do, but they don't really know how are they doing on text, right? As opposed to just like there's something really profound about having to call someone on the phone and ask them out on a date. You grow so much as a person by doing that and it kind of sets the stage for the relationship as well or asking someone out in person. It's hard. You're really vulnerable.
现在的追求方式并不是传统意义上的那种，因为那显得有些过时。男孩不再像过去那样约女孩出去，他们会发信息，但常常不知道自己发的是否得当。相比之下，通过电话邀请某人约会是一件很有意义的事情，这能让你在个人成长上获益匪浅，也为未来的关系奠定了基础。或者是当面邀请别人约会，这也很难，因为你要在那一刻完全坦露自己的心声。
So it's easy to kind of avoid vulnerability because you can do so many things on text and pretend that it's not a vulnerable act. And people don't necessarily even call it a date. It's like, hey, you want to hang out. Which is just kind of the language around it. So there's not sort of like the structure of we're going on a date. That's much less common. Whereas in your era and my era it was much more like you knew when you were being asked on a date. It was not so ambiguous.
所以，人们很容易在文字交流中避免表现出脆弱，因为你可以做很多事情，并假装这并不是一种暴露脆弱的行为。而且人们不一定会称其为约会，只是说：“嘿，你想一起玩玩吗？”这只是其中的用语而已。所以现在没有像过去那样明确的“我们在约会”的结构；这种情况很少见。在你和我的时代，约会更为明确，大家会清楚地知道何时正在被邀请参加约会，不会那么模糊不清。
And I think social media makes it really hard because any misstep someone's going to post about it potentially or they've got you on video or things that are really embarrassing or scary when you're first getting into a relationship with someone. That could become if you're with the wrong person who's emotionally immature and many young people, you know, they're learning and growing. They do all kinds of things that humiliate the other person.
我认为社交媒体让这件事变得非常困难，因为任何小错误都有可能被人发布出来，或者被拍成视频。当你和某人刚开始一段感情时，这些事情都可能让人感到尴尬或恐惧。如果你和一个情感不够成熟的人在一起，这种情况会更糟糕。许多年轻人在成长过程中，也会做出一些让对方感到难堪的事情。
Here's a list of someone's red flags that I'm going to share with everybody. Can you imagine? And it's on social media. So teens are doing this? Can you believe someone, you know, like information that should remain private does not remain private. I'm not talking about things that are bad that someone did that are like need to be reported. I'm talking about like embarrassing things or someone was, you know, socially unskilled.
这是一个关于某人“红旗”的列表，我将与大家分享。你能想象吗？而且这还是在社交媒体上。所以现在青少年都在这么做？你能相信吗，有些本该保密的信息却没有保密。我并不是在说那些一定要举报的坏事，而是一些令人尴尬的事情或者某人在社交方面不太熟练的表现。
Her breath was bad. His, his, his, he smelled bad. That kind of thing. Yeah, anything like or, or, you know, this is this is what, or this is what he did on the date that was, you know, embarrassing. You know, he did this weird impression or, you know, whatever it is. But also just like sexual encounters or, you know, like nothing feels totally private. Like you just the level of trust that you have to have in your partner now that was just taken for granted.
她的口气不好。他的，他的，他的，闻起来有点味道。就是那种感觉。是的，像这样的事情，或者，你知道的，这就是他在约会时做的那些令人尴尬的事情。他做了个奇怪的模仿，或者，不管是什么。不过，还有一些事情，比如性经历之类的，现在似乎没有什么是完全私密的。你必须对你的伴侣有极高的信任，而这些以往是理所当然的。
Like sure, people might have said something to their best friend, but they also had better boundaries around that. Like you kind of knew in our society what was private and what was not. And because people grow up on social media, they don't really have experience with this sort of, there's a private sphere and there's a public sphere. So it's all kind of blurred. And they don't really learn like what is private and what is not. And I think it's really nerve-wracking for people.
当然，人们可能会和他们的好朋友说一些事情，但他们也会有更好的界限意识。在我们的社会中，人们过去会更清楚地知道什么是私人的，什么不是。由于人们在社交媒体上成长，他们对私人空间和公共空间的区分没有太多经验。所以这些界限变得模糊不清。他们不太懂什么是私人的、什么不是。对此，我觉得人们会感到很不安。
So people don't take, we're talking about risk. People don't take risks in relationships. They don't, they aren't really vulnerable because they're afraid that, you know, they will be humiliated. So what do you think the need is to, to share that with the world? Is it because then they don't have to acknowledge that it might have been at least in part them? Like if you paint red flags on somebody, then it can't, then the person painting is not the one under scrutiny, right?
人们不冒险，我们在谈论风险。人们在恋爱关系中不愿冒险，他们不愿真正地展现脆弱，因为他们害怕可能会感到羞辱。那么，你认为把这些分享给世界的必要性是什么？是不是因为这样的话，他们就不用承认问题至少在部分上可能是出在自己身上？比如，如果你给别人贴上"红旗"的标签，那么贴标签的人就不会被质疑，对吧？
I think they just feel hurt and they want to feel. And so they feel like a dip in their self-esteem. And they want to feel validated. And of course, if they make this list, their friends are going to say, yeah, you dodged a bullet. This person wasn't right for you. You deserve better. And then they feel better about it. But you don't grow from that. So the thing is that if you can sit with that really hurts.
我觉得他们只是感到受伤，他们想要感受一些东西。所以他们可能感到自尊心受到打击，并想要得到认可。当然，如果他们列出一些缺点，他们的朋友就会说，对，你幸免于难，这个人不适合你，你值得更好。这样他们会感到好一些。但这样做其实没有成长。所以关键是，如果你能面对那些真正的伤痛。
And this isn't, and like this person is not the arbiter of my self-worth whoever broke up with me. And for whatever reason, you know, just because someone doesn't value you, doesn't mean you don't have value. And you think that's a really important lesson for people to learn. So, you know, if I took like a, some gold, right? Like a brick of gold. And, you know, and someone said, like, I don't like that. I like silver or I like whatever I like, right? Just mean the gold inherently lost value. It means that for that person, that block of gold didn't have value. But the gold has the same amount of value that it had.
这段话的意思是说：“分手了，并不意味着那个人能决定我的自我价值。无论对方出于什么原因，不欣赏你的人并不代表你没有价值。我认为这是一个非常重要的教训。就像你手中有一块金砖，即使有人说他们不喜欢，他们更喜欢银或其他东西，这不意味着金砖本身失去了价值。对那个人来说，金砖没有价值，但金砖本身的价值并没有改变。”
And I think that we tend to kind of consider somebody else's opinion of us to be the arbiter of our worth. And it's not like your worth is stable. And people, some people will value it. Some people won't find the people who value it. Because those are the people that you want to be with. But it doesn't mean that you have less value because somebody doesn't value it or you have more value because someone does value it. You have the same amount of value either way.
我认为我们往往倾向于把他人对我们的看法视为评判我们价值的标准。其实我们的价值并不是一成不变的。有的人会欣赏我们的价值，有的人则不会。我们应该寻找那些欣赏我们的人，因为这些人才是值得我们相处的人。但这并不意味着因为有人不欣赏我们，我们的价值就会降低，或者因为有人欣赏我们，我们的价值就会提升。无论如何，我们的价值都是不变的。
But I think young people are not, you know, it always hurts. We talked about breakups earlier. They always hurt. And especially when you're young and you don't have experience, but my concern is that they're not getting the experience of, um, of kind of sitting with it. And yes, you want, you want to, you know, have your friends support you and all of that. But I think once you start posting about it or once you start kind of vilifying the other person, you're not learning the lesson. You're not learning how to deal with loss.
但我觉得，年轻人，你知道，分手总是让人受伤。我们之前谈到了分手问题。分手总是会让人难过。特别是当你年轻，没有经验的时候，我担心的是，他们没有学会如何去面对这种感受。当然，你希望朋友能支持你，这很正常。但我认为，一旦你开始在网上发布相关信息，或者开始将对方妖魔化，其实你就没有从中学到教训。你没有学会如何去处理失去。
In your adult clients, um, how much of the struggle that you hear about in terms of romantic relationships relates to, again, online aspects like apps and things like that. Do you think they facilitated things or made them, um, relationships more challenging? Well, I think what the apps do is there's a phenomenon that Barry Schwartz talks about in his book, The Paradox of Choice. And it's the idea that the more choice we have, the less happy we are. So you need some choice, but it's kind of like, think of like a fishbowl in aquarium and an ocean. Fishbowl is not enough choice. Just too constrained.
在你的成年客户中，你听到的关于浪漫关系的困扰中，有多少与在线方面如应用程序有关？你认为这些技术是让交流更方便了，还是让关系更加困难了呢？嗯，我认为这些应用程序带来了一个现象，Barry Schwartz在他的书《选择的悖论》中谈到这个现象。这个想法是，我们的选择越多，幸福感就越低。所以我们确实需要一些选择，但可以想象一下，一个鱼缸和海洋的区别。鱼缸里的选择不够，太受限制了。
Ocean too much choice. You're like, yeah, there's no direction. Oh my gosh. The aquarium is perfect. It's a certain amount of choice, but it's manageable. You don't get flooded. You don't get overwhelmed. So they did these experiments where like you'd be able to test out like we have this new jam and we have 10 different flavors and which one do you like best and which one are you going to pick? People would get so overwhelmed. They didn't even want to try that. They're like, it's too much or we have two flavors. Which one do you like better, right? Manageable.
海洋给人的选择太多了，你可能会感到没有方向感。天哪，水族馆就是完美的，它提供了适量的选择，但完全可以应对。你不会被淹没在选择中，不会感到不知所措。他们做过一些实验，比如让你尝试一些新的果酱，其中有10种不同口味，问你最喜欢哪种，你会选择哪种。结果是，人们常常感到过于困扰，甚至不愿意去尝试，因为选择太多了。相反，如果只有两种口味，你更喜欢哪一种，这就是可以轻松选择的范围。
So there are people who are what we call status facers and people who are maximizers. So status facers, well, let me tell you about maximizers first. Maximizers are people. Let's see, you want to buy a sweater. Okay. You go into the store, you find a sweater that you like. It's the right material. It's the right price. It fits you well. It's the right color. It's good. Great. The maximizer says, but maybe I can find something better. So I'm going to take that sweater. I'm going to put it on bottom of the pile so that nobody buys it.
所以，有些人是我们称之为"地位看重者"，而另一些人是"极致追求者"。首先让我来介绍一下什么是"极致追求者"。假如你想买一件毛衣。你走进商店，找到一件你喜欢的毛衣。材质合适，价格合理，大小合适，颜色也不错。一切都很完美，这真是太好了。然而，极致追求者会想，也许我还能找到更好的。于是，他们会把这件毛衣放在底部，以免其他人买走。
I'm going to go to the store next door and I'm going to see if they have something better. Maybe something's on sale. Maybe it's slightly higher end material, whatever it is, right? But they keep going to stores and they keep doing this. And then they think, oh, well, I found the greatest sweater ever. And I'm going to get that one. Guess what? They are less satisfied with that purchase. Then the person who the Satisficer, who would have bought that first sweater in that first store and would have been super happy with that sweater. It's all opportunity cost.
我要去隔壁的商店看看他们是否有更好的东西。也许有促销活动，也许有更高档的材料，不管是什么，对吧？但有些人总是去不同的商店，不断这样做。然后他们想，“哦，我找到了最棒的毛衣，我要买这一件。”猜猜结果怎样？他们对这次购买其实不太满意。相比之下，那些“满足者”在第一家店买了第一件毛衣，并对此非常满意。这一切都跟机会成本有关。
Okay. Because all of the energy, the emotional and cognitive energy that went into maximizing something for what kind of benefit, like what percent benefit, not much compared to the amount of energy that they spent trying to maximize. They're never satisfied because even when they get that great product, something better is going to come out. There's going to be a new color that comes out like two weeks later that was in none of the stores. So you're always kind of looking over if you're a maximizer.
好的。因为所有用于最大化某种利益的精力——包括情感和认知上的努力——所带来的好处微乎其微，相对于他们为了最大化所投入的精力来说并不多。他们永远不会感到满意，因为即使当他们得到了一个满意的产品，总会有更好的东西出现。可能在两周后就会有一种新颜色上市，而之前在商店中根本找不到。所以，如果你是一个追求极致的人，你总是要不断关注新的变化。
You're always kind of looking over your shoulder for like, what if something better is out there in dating? That's what the apps are like. You go out with someone, you have a good time, you think, well, no butterflies, you know, no sparks, pretty good time. But I don't know. I can go back on the apps. You go back on the apps. Look at all the people there. Maybe they're better on this dimension or that dimension. And so what it does is it turns everyone into maximizers because there's an illusion of choice. Like not everybody you see is going to be better. And again, we don't get the olicart option with people. So there'll be different dimensions in which people are more aligned with what you're looking for. But no one's going to be like perfect. Right? So why are we looking for perfection?
在约会中，你总是有点警惕，好像一直想着：“如果外面还有更好的人怎么办？” 这就是交友软件的感觉。你和某人约会，度过了愉快的时光，想着：“嗯，没有怦然心动，没有火花，但还不错。” 可我不知道，也许我该回去看看交友软件。你又回到软件上，发现了许多人，也许他们在这方面或那方面更好。因此，这让每个人都变得像是追求极致的“挑剔者”，因为这种选择的假象。其实，并不是你看到的每个人都会更好，而且人与人之间没有完美的“单点选项”。所以在人们的不同方面，可能会有更符合你需求的，但没有人会是完美的。对吧？那我们为什么要追求完美呢？
Why don't we look for? And by the way, the status facers are not settling. This isn't about like, yeah, I'll just settle for say, it's like, that sweater was great. You liked everything about it. You don't need to look for anything more. Will there be, if you pick a partner, will there be someone more attractive? Of course. Will there be someone less attractive? Of course. Right? And by the way, if we treat dating like shopping, we forget that in shopping, we're the choosers. But in dating, someone has to choose us too. And we, by the way, are not perfect.
为什么我们不去寻找呢？顺便说一下，那些追求完美的人是不会轻易妥协的。这不是说“嗯，我就这样凑合吧”，而是说“那个毛衣很好，你喜欢它的一切，不需要再找其他的了”。当你选择伴侣时，会不会有更吸引人的人出现？当然会。有没那么吸引人的人吗？当然也会。顺便说一下，如果我们把约会看作购物，我们会忘记在购物时我们是挑选者，而在约会中，也需要有人选择我们。我们自己其实也不完美。
So an exercise that I like to do with clients is I want you to write down all the reasons that it would be difficult to date you. So instead of making a list of all the qualities you want in a partner, like the partner has to be this, they have to be that. They have to have these interests. They have to have this amount of ambition. They have to look a certain way. They have to have these interests, whatever it is. I want you to write down everything that would make it difficult. What a great exercise to be with you. And some people, it's kind of like in a job interview when they say, what are your weaknesses? And we tend to say things that sound positive. You know, like, my weaknesses that I work too hard, but I'm too dedicated that I can't, you know, let's go. It's a non-answer.
我喜欢与客户一起进行一个练习，我希望你写下所有让与我约会变得困难的原因。与其列出你希望伴侣具备的所有品质，比如伴侣必须是什么样的、拥有哪些兴趣、拥有多少雄心壮志、必须长得怎么样等等。我希望你写下所有可能使约会变得困难的事情。这是一个很好的自我认识的练习。有些人可能会像在工作面试中被问到“你的弱点是什么”时那样回答，往往会说一些听起来很积极的事情，比如“我的弱点是我工作太努力”或“我太投入”，这些其实都不是真正的答案。
It's a non-right. So you have to be scrupulously honest with yourself. So what makes it hard to be with you? And if you're really honest with yourself, suddenly, you're less of a maximizer, right? Because suddenly you're like, oh, someone is thinking about the things that, you know, they're looking at me holistically as well. And overall, I'm a pretty good package. But there are things that, you know, maybe they could maximize if they really wanted to, but then they're going to have to give up some other qualities that I have that the other person might not have.
这不是一件理所当然的事。所以你必须对自己诚实。那么，是什么让与您相处变得困难呢？如果你真正对自己诚实，你会发现你不再那么追求完美了，对吧？因为你突然意识到，有人也在全面地看待你，并且总体上看，你是一个相当不错的"整体包裹"。但也有一些方面，如果他们真的想追求完美的话，可能可以改进，但那样一来，他们可能就得放弃我拥有而其他人没有的一些品质。
So I think it's really important not to think about dating as shopping. And I think that people who grew up on apps tend to treat dating like shopping and they don't sit there and make the list of, oh, I can be this way. And that makes it hard, you know, for someone to be with me. And you could name a million reasons. Oh, and by the way, I tell them that for all the traits you're looking for, however, whatever that number is, because they tend to have a lot, right? It's not just like I need these three things. It's like I need these 20 things, right? The list. So I said, for every quality that you're looking for, whatever number that is, if it's 20, you need to name 20 things that make it hard to be with you.
所以，我认为很重要的是不要把约会看作购物。我觉得那些在交友应用程序上成长起来的人往往把约会当成购物，而他们不去仔细想想自己的性格特点，比如，我有哪些特点会让别人很难与我相处。而且，你可以列出一大堆原因。另外，我告诉他们，对于你在寻找的所有特质，不管数量是多少，因为他们往往会有很多要求，不仅仅是需要这三样东西，而是需要这二十样，对吧？所以，我会说，对于每一个你寻找的特质，不管是20个还是更多，你需要列出同样数量的让别人很难与之相处的原因。
So it can't be like, there are two things that make it hard to be with you, but you have a list of 20 things that you want. Do you think that after people make that list that they might take a look at that list and make some effort to like reduce or eliminate some things from that list? Is that good selfwork? Like if somebody is super rigid about punctuality, anyone that knows me clearly, that's not me. Like I know some people that are so rigid about that. Let's say someone identifies that as one of the things that can be really difficult. Like they get really upset if somebody's five minutes late.
因此不能这样：你有两件事情让我们在一起很困难，但你自己却有二十个要求。你觉得人们列出这些要求后，会不会考虑努力减少或去掉一些要求？这算好的自我提升吗？比如说，如果有人对守时极其严格，任何了解我的人都知道那不是我的风格。我认识一些人对此非常严格。假设有人认为这一点真的很难以应付，比如他们非常不满哪怕别人迟到五分钟。
I've interacted with these people. You're very difficult to be around. As an academic, everything starts 10 minutes late. We end late. That's how it works. But should they try to resolve that or reduce that feature or should they look at the list and say, you know what? I'm not going to change that. This thing, well, I should probably change that. What else can the list do for people? Okay. So relationships are like cement. So when you're first putting down the cement, it's wet and it's malleable. When it dries, it's very hard to then now you have to dig it up.
我和这些人交流过。你很难相处。作为学术界的一员，一切都晚开始10分钟，我们也晚结束，这就是运作方式。但他们是否应该尝试解决或减少这一特点，还是应该看看清单然后说，你知道吗？我不会改变这一点。不过，这个我可能应该改。这个清单还能为人们做些什么？好的，人际关系就像水泥。当你第一次铺水泥时，它是湿的，可以塑形；而当它干了以后，你要想再改变就得费很大劲去挖掉。
So let's say that punctuality is really important for someone. And they think, well, I don't want to rock the boat. It's the beginning of the relationship. So yeah, this person comes late all the time. But I'm going to say nothing about it. And I'm going to be cool with that. Even though I'm not. And I'm sitting there seething every time they come late. And it's kind of like in the first three months of a relationship. I think it was Chris Rock who said this in the first three months of a relationship. You're not you. You're the ambassador of you. So sometimes people will, you know, who really are not punctual will be punctual. And then they'll change. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about someone who, you know, someone has, they're just not a punctual person like you're saying you are.
假设守时对某人来说非常重要。他们可能会想，我不想破坏关系。这是关系的开始。所以，虽然这个人总是迟到，我什么也不说，并假装对此无所谓，尽管我心里很不满。他们一迟到，我就很生气。就像是在一段关系的头三个月，我记得好像是克里斯·洛克说过，在关系的头三个月，你不是你自己，而是你自己的大使。所以，有时候那些平时不守时的人在这段时间里会表现得很守时，然后他们就变回原样了。但我说的不是这种情况。我说的是那些原本就不守时的人，而你却说自己是个守时的人。
So if you're dating someone and that person is telling themselves, like, I'm not going to bring it up. I don't want to rock the boat. It's early in the relationship. The cement is wet. This is when you need to bring it up. So because if you don't, what happens is it's like six months down the line. The person is like, I can't believe you're late. What just how, you know, why are you, you're always late? You don't prioritize me. It's like the person's like, I'm, this is the first time hearing about this. Like the person has had a no opportunity to change it if they want to, but be no opportunity to explain.
所以，如果你在约会某人，而那个人心里在想：我不想提这个问题。我不想给关系带来麻烦。这才是交往初期，一些事情还没有定型。这时候你就需要提出问题。因为如果你不这样做，过了六个月，可能会出现这样的情况：那个人会说，我真不敢相信你又迟到了。你为什么总是迟到？你根本不重视我。而你可能会想：这是我第一次听说这个问题。而这样的情况下，对方既没有机会去改变，也没有机会去解释。
So it might be that as happened with one of my therapy clients, the person was always late, but it was because he was trying to please her because she wanted to have dinner. He knew that she liked to eat on the earlier side. He worked really late. So he was trying to kind of like get his work done and get there. And he was always late because he was trying to like be there when she wanted to have dinner. So he said like, I'm late because I do prioritize you. I'm actually leaving work early to be with you, but I should have just said I can't be here at this time. That's what I should have said.
可能就像我一个疗法客户的情况一样，这个人总是迟到，但这是因为他想讨好她，因为她想一起吃晚餐。他知道她喜欢早点吃饭，而他工作得很晚。因此，他努力在完成工作的同时赶过去，结果总是迟到。他说：“我迟到是因为我确实重视你，我其实提早下班来陪你，但我本应该直接说我无法在那个时间赶到。”
And I was worried you would get mad because it would be too late for you. So you see the assumption that she made was you don't care about me. I'm not important to you. Your work is more important. And he's saying no, I actually was leaving work to be with you. And I still couldn't get there on time. So we need to figure out how to work this out. Like can we have dinner later? Because I'm just going to be late if we do it earlier. And you know, what can we work out? So that's an example of if you just bring it up early, you don't build up all these stories about the other person. This person doesn't care. They don't prioritize me.
我担心你会生气，因为对你来说可能太晚了。所以你看，她做出的假设是你不在乎我，我对你不重要，你的工作更重要。而实际上他说的是，我其实是从工作上抽身离开来陪你的，但是还是没能及时赶到。因此，我们需要想办法解决这个问题。比如，我们能不能晚一点吃晚饭？因为如果早点吃，我就是会迟到。我们能商量出个解决办法吗？这就是一个例子，说明如果早点提出来，就不会产生那些对对方的误解，比如这个人不在乎我，或者不把我放在优先位置。
Whatever the story is that you're making about that person. And you have a chance to see is the person willing to do something about it? Or if they're not, are you willing to be flexible and say, you know, this person, they just run late. And I like so many other things about them. And I'm going to adjust to the fact that this is one thing that in a perfect world, I would like them to be more punctual. But there's so many great things that this is one thing that I'm going to adjust to.
无论你对那个人有什么看法，你都有机会去看看他们是否愿意做出改变。如果他们不愿意，你是否愿意灵活一些，并对自己说：“这个人就是总是迟到，但我喜欢他们的许多其他优点。”你可以调整自己的期望，接受这样一个事实：在一个完美的世界里，你希望他们更守时，但考虑到他们有很多优秀的品质，对于这个小问题，你选择去适应。
Weaving this with what we were talking about earlier about gut sense and the validity or lack of validity of gut sense. I certainly have had the experience and I know many other people have that after a relationship ends or when it's ending, they think back and they go, you know, there was that thing at the beginning. And I knew it then. But I pushed it aside. Like, is that just a story we tell ourselves? I think that the most important question to ask yourself after you go on a first date or a second date or a third date is, how do I feel when I'm with this person?
结合我们之前讨论的关于直觉感受及其准确性的问题，我确实有过这样的经历，也知道很多人都有过：在一段关系结束后或即将结束时，他们回想起来，会说：“当初就有那么个感觉，我早就知道，但我把它抛在一边了。”这会不会只是我们对自己讲的故事呢？我认为，约会后最重要的问题是：和这个人在一起时，我感觉如何？
Because all the other stuff is just kind of like a cognitive exercise, right? Like, so one of my clients, she was said to herself, like, I don't want to date any. She was in her early 30s and she said, I don't, I want to have kids with a partner. I'm 31 years old. I don't want to date anyone. I'll date someone who's divorced, but I won't date someone who has kids. She met someone online. The, it didn't have the kid question in that particular app that she was using. She went to meet him on the first date. She's having such a good time and it comes up that he has a kid.
因为所有其他的事情就像是一种认知练习，对吧？比如说，我有一个客户，她曾对自己说：“我不想和任何人约会。”她30岁出头，并表示：“我想和伴侣一起要孩子。我31岁了，我不想和任何人约会。可以约会离过婚的人，但不会约会有孩子的人。”结果，她在网上认识了一个人，那个特别的软件上没有关于孩子的问题。她第一次约会时，玩得很开心，然后才发现他有个孩子。
And she was having such a good time that she really debated, like, should I go out with him again? Should I not go out with him again? This is not what I want. I don't want to deal with that. It's too messy and it's not what I imagined. If she had known on that dating app that he had, you know, let it ask if he had kids and he had put that, she would never have met him. That is her husband. She is so happy. I mean, they've been married now for like 15 years. They have kids together. The other kid, she's so happy.
她当时过得非常开心，以至于她在犹豫：我应该再和他约会吗？还是不应该再见他？这不是我想要的，我不想处理这些事情，太复杂了，也不是我想象中的样子。如果当初在那个交友软件上能问对方有没有孩子，而他填写了的话，她根本不会见到他。而那个人现在是她的丈夫。她非常幸福，他们已经结婚15年了，还有了自己的孩子。对于他的另一个孩子，她也感到非常开心。
So I think that when we make that list that you said, like, do you should you take things off the list? I think that you need to have flexibility about things that may not matter, but you have to be very inflexible about the things that do matter. So character qualities, they matter, values that align, that matters. So those are things that don't be flexible on that.
所以我觉得，当我们制定你提到的清单时，是否应该从中删掉一些东西呢？我认为对于那些可能不重要的事情，你需要保持灵活性，但对于确实重要的事情，你必须非常坚定。比如，品格特质很重要，与个人价值观的契合很重要，这些事情上不要妥协。
So I just want to make sure I understand. So we're talking about two different lists here. One is a list about features about the other person. This is what I hear as like the list. The number of times that friends are like, you have to make a list. I never get around to making a list, but I like this other list that you described, which is all the things about ourselves that would make us difficult to be with, which list or both do we need to have rigidity versus flexibility on?
所以我想确认一下我是否理解正确。我们这里在谈论两个不同的清单。一个是关于对方特征的清单。就像我常常听朋友们说的，你必须列一个清单。我总是没能把这个清单做好，但我喜欢你提到的另一个清单，也就是所有关于我们自己的那些让我们难以相处的特征。对于这两个清单，或者说是两个都，我们应该在哪些方面保持坚定，哪些方面保持灵活呢？
I'm saying that when we think of that list, and by the way, a lot of people don't sit there and write a list, but they have it in their head. You know, there's this process of I know what I'm looking for or whatever. Some people say like, I know it when I see it, but there's really a list in there because you know what you're looking for, and it matches this list in your head.
我想说的是，当我们想到那个清单时，顺便提一下，很多人并不会真的坐下来写个清单，但他们心里是有这样的一个清单的。你知道的，这是一个“我知道我在找什么”或类似的过程。有些人会说，“看到的时候我就知道了”，但其实心里是有个清单的，因为你知道你在找什么，并且那符合你心里的清单。
So on that list, I'm saying you need to put more things like character qualities. Are they honest? Are they reliable? Can I trust them? Do we have the same kind of vision of the kind of life that we want to lead? You know, where are we aligned on those important things? Because those things are those are sort of hard to bridge those gaps. You know, like they're just going to keep coming up and be very difficult to deal with.
所以，在那个清单上，我建议你需要加入更多关于性格品质的内容。他们诚实吗？他们可靠吗？我能信任他们吗？我们是否对想要过的生活有共同的愿景？这些都是重要的方面，因为这些差异很难弥合。比如，这些问题会不断出现，让人难以应对。
Things like, do we have to have all the same interests? No. You know, do we, you know, does the person have kids or not? Well, you may, that may not be the ideal choice, but look what happened to this other person that, you know, like you don't know. I think that question that I'm going back to of how does this person make me feel if the character qualities are there? Because sometimes people who don't have the character qualities that you want are very charming and they can make you feel great.
这样的事情，比如我们是否必须要有相同的兴趣？不一定。你知道，对方是否有孩子？这可能不是你理想的选择，但看看其他人的情况，有时候你不知道。我觉得我自己一直在追问的问题是，如果这个人有我看重的品格，这个人能让我感觉如何。因为有时候那些没有你想要的品格的人会非常有魅力，他们可能会让你感觉很好。
But if they have the character qualities, do I feel calm around this person? Going back to this idea of peace and calm. I like this idea somebody had mentioned that I love this metaphor of being able to bring your rough drafts to the other person, meaning that you don't have to be on all the time with this person. That you can bring sort of the rough draft of yourself of this idea of, you know, you're, you're kind of imperfect draft and they collaborate with you on that.
但如果他们具备这些性格特点，我在这个人身边是否感到平静？回到这种平和与安宁的观念。我喜欢有人提到的这个比喻：你可以把自己未完成的"草稿"带给对方，这意味着你不必在这个人面前总是完美无缺。你可以展示自己有些不完美的“草稿”，然后他们会与你一起合作完善。
And I think that's so beautiful, right? Like you can be what it means is you can be yourself. And yourself doesn't mean I can be I can act in any way I want I can have no boundaries I can be abusive. No, that's not the rough draft. But it's kind of like I am working this through I'm trying to understand this I'm not perfect. Sometimes I will make mistakes.
我觉得这很美，对吧？就像是你可以成为你自己。成为自己并不意味着你可以随心所欲、没有任何界限、或者可以随意伤害别人。不是这样的。而是说我正在努力理解这一点，我不完美，有时会犯错误。
Can you be comfortable enough around each other to hold yourself accountable? But still feel loved by the other person. I love love love that the criteria for lack of a better word of, you know, how do I feel when I'm around this person? Yeah. Peace being a an anchor point or a place to look for. And when I say how I mean, do you feel calm? Do you feel content?
你们能否在彼此面前足够坦诚，互相负责，同时仍然感受到对方的爱？我非常喜欢（由于缺乏更好的词）评估你和某人相处时感受的标准，即在一起时是否感到平静和满足。这种平和感可以作为一个基准或参考点。当我说"感受如何"时，我指的是你是否感到冷静和满意。
And so calmness is different from sort of the activation. Contentment is different from like out of your mind happy. Of course in the beginning and hopefully throughout the relationship there will be times when you feel this like incredible energy around happiness and joy and being around the other person. But most of the time what you're going to feel around your partner is a sense of safety, a safe place to land contentment.
因此，平静与激动是不同的，满足与那种极度开心也不一样。当然，在感情的开始阶段，希望在整个关系中，也会有许多时候你会感受到一种不可思议的快乐和喜悦能量，与你的伴侣在一起。但大多数时候，你在伴侣身边感受到的会是一种安全感，一种可以依靠的满足。
I enjoy this person sense of humor. I enjoy sitting with them even through our silences. I enjoy like sitting on the couch and watching a show with them. I enjoy basically doing anything with them just because I like their presence. That's what I mean. Like how do you feel? Does their presence feel additive to you? Does it feel like you and just are happier with their presence than you would be without their presence?
我喜欢这个人的幽默感。即使我们沉默不语，我也喜欢和他们坐在一起。我享受和他们坐在沙发上看电视的时光。我基本上喜欢与他们一起做任何事情，只因为我喜欢他们的存在。我的意思就是这样。你觉得呢？他们的存在对你来说是种加分吗？和他们在一起时你是否比不在一起时更快乐呢？
And sometimes people feel like, oh, we have such a strong relationship or so drawn to each other. But what you're drawn to is when you're with each other, the presence is volatile. It's either like the high highs and the low lows. And that's not, you know, I'm talking about that sense of contentment just being in the other person's presence, the dailiness of it.
有时候，人们会觉得，哦，我们的关系很深，彼此有强烈的吸引力。但实际上，你被吸引的是当你们在一起时，那种不稳定的状态。要么是非常高亢的幸福，要么是极度的低落。这和我说的那种只是在对方面前就感到满足的感觉不同，也不是生活中的日常平静。
There's so much made of these love languages like their acts of service and I like, you know, gifts say, you know, all that kind of stuff. I've heard it said, you know, what's your love language and someone, you know, I'm just saying all of them, you know, that person was me, all of them. I'm like, who doesn't like all of those, you know, both, you know, I like to think I offer them too, you know, you know, who doesn't like all of those things. But I realize that some people place more value on certain gestures and expressions. And I think that's all fine and good.
关于爱情语言有很多讨论，比如服务的举动、礼物等。我听过有人问：“你的爱情语言是什么？” 我会说：“我喜欢所有的。” 其实那个人就是我，所有的。我觉得谁不喜欢这些呢？我也喜欢觉得我能提供这些。我意识到，有些人对某些特定的举动和表达更看重。我觉得这都非常好，没有问题。
What I love about what you're saying, however, is that it's more like a, no, we're sounding woo, but it's more of like an energetic match. This feeling of safety, you know, the word piece to me just like holds so much value these days. I feel like the two things that come to really value more and more are peace and self-respect. Because it's hard to have peace without self-respect. Yeah. Certainly hard to have self-respect without peace. Now sometimes lack of peace can be from external things. But then we have to ask ourselves like, do we have any control over these external things?
我喜欢你说的这一点，不过它更像是，我们听上去有点玄，但更像是一种能量的匹配。这种安全感的感觉，你知道，对我来说，“平和”这个词如今就像是承载了巨大的价值。我觉得我越来越珍视的两件事是平和和自尊。因为没有自尊很难有平和，对吧？当然，没有平和也很难有自尊。有时候，平和的缺失可能是由于外部因素。但我们必须问自己，我们能不能控制这些外部因素呢？
Yeah. I'm curious what your reflections are on like energy, like an energy match. So instead of love languages, I look at it as understanding each other's operating instructions. We don't get a manual like when you get it by a car or piece of technology, right? It comes with operating instructions. So you know exactly how it works. Like don't push this button, do push this button. This makes it run more smoothly. This will destroy it. Right? So you understand those things. So we don't know that about the other person. Like we make so many assumptions. You know, if this person is coming to me to talk about this, here's what I would want in that situation.
好的。我很好奇你对“能量匹配”这种概念的看法。与其说是爱情语言，我更倾向于把这理解为了解彼此的“操作说明”。就像我们买汽车或电子产品时，通常都会附带使用说明书，可以清楚告诉你产品该怎么使用，比如：哪个按钮不要按，哪个按钮要按，按了之后会让设备运转更顺畅，反之则可能损坏。而在人际关系中，我们并没有一份类似的说明书来指导我们了解对方，我们往往是基于自己的假设去理解对方。比如，当有人来和我谈某件事时，我会想在这种情况下我希望得到什么。
So we do that. And the person's like, no, no, no, I came to talk to you about it. I just wanted to vent. I don't, I didn't come for you to fix it. Right? But maybe you like it when people fix it. So you have to learn the other person's operating instructions. So we talk about this idea of love languages, people like all those things. As you said, operating instructions is something so much deeper and more intimate, which is I understand that being late means this to you. Right? I understand that it helps you when you're anxious if my voice gets quieter. Instead of, you know, I understand that you need a hug in this moment.
所以我们这样做了。而那个人却说，不，不，我来找你是为了聊聊这件事。我只是想倾诉一下，不是让你来解决问题，对吧？但也许你喜欢别人为你解决问题。所以你需要了解对方的“操作说明”。我们谈到爱的语言，大家喜欢这些东西。正如你所说，“操作说明”是更深层次、更亲密的东西，比如，我明白迟到对你来说意味着什么。我知道当你焦虑时，我说话声音变得更轻会对你有帮助。我也明白在这个时刻你需要一个拥抱。
I understand that when we're going on a trip, you like to pack this way and I like to pack this way and let's do it our own ways, right? But or, you know, just like I understand these things about you and you understand these things about me. And so if we understand them, we know how the other person operates and we're going to operate ourselves with an eye toward that. And there's something so loving about understanding somebody's operating instructions and honoring them. And we don't try to figure out the other person. We try to think like, why are they acting that way?
我明白我们在旅行时，你喜欢这样收拾行李，而我喜欢那样收拾，让我们各自按照自己的方式来，好吗？就像我理解你的这些习惯，你也理解我的一些习惯。既然我们了解这些，就知道对方的做事方式，并且在行动时会考虑到对方。这种理解对方的“操作说明”，并予以尊重的方式，非常体现爱意。而不是试图去猜测对方，不要想为什么他们会那样做。
We don't get curious and ask, hey, why are you acting that way? What's going on? And you learn that, oh, well, this is why. And then now you know that in those situations, here's how they can go more smoothly. I rarely ask guests on this podcast to editorialize about other guests. But here it feels appropriate. Bill Eddie was on this podcast. He's a therapist and lawyer and he wrote the book. I think it was like five types of people that will ruin your life. And one of the cardinal features of a person that he claimed will ruin your life is somebody, one of the early warning signs, let's not say cardinal features.
我们不去好奇地问，嘿，你为什么这样做？发生了什么事？于是你了解到，哦，原来是这样。所以现在你知道在这样的情况下，事情可以怎样更顺利地进行。我很少请这档播客的嘉宾对其他嘉宾进行评论，但在这里这样做似乎是合适的。Bill Eddie曾做客我们这个播客。他是一位治疗师和律师，写了一本书。我记得书名大概是《会毁掉你生活的五种人》。他提到了一类会给你生活带来麻烦的人，其中一个早期的预警信号（不如说是主要特征）应该引起我们的注意。
But is somebody who has a story about their past failures that's always about how they were wronged by somebody else. Yes. Like the victim stance. Like there's no other word for it. People who are constantly talking about how they were a victim of somebody else. There is a word for it. It's called help rejecting complainers. Help rejecting complainers. So a help rejecting complainer is a person who is always telling you, you know, this went wrong and it was somebody else's fault. And they're seemingly coming to you for advice or guidance.
有些人总是讲述自己过去失败的故事，强调是被别人伤害或误解了。是的，这就像是摆出受害者的态度。人们总是说他们如何成为别人伤害的受害者。其实对于这样的人，有一个词可以形容，就是“拒绝帮助的抱怨者”。这种人总是跟你说，这件事情出了问题，是因为别人的错。他们看起来像是来寻求你的建议或指导，但其实并不接受帮助。
And no matter what you say, like how about this? Or have you tried this or have you thought about this? No, that won't work because no, I've tried that. That's not going to help. No, because people are like this and that won't help. So they don't actually want help. It serves them in some way to be to complain and be the victim and be wronged. And so it's almost like, you know, that's that makes them feel better. They don't want to look at themselves. They don't want to look at their role in things. So be aware of help rejecting complainers because they're always going to come to you and you're going to at first feel bad for them.
无论你说什么，比如“试试这个？”或者“你想过这样吗？”，他们都不会接受。他们会说：“不，这不行，因为我已经试过了，这没用。”或是“不会有帮助的，因为别人就是这样。”其实，他们并不是真的想要帮助。抱怨、扮演受害者角色、感觉被不公对待，这些行为对他们来说在某种程度上是有好处的，甚至让他们感觉好些。他们不想反思自己，也不愿意正视自己在事情中所扮演的角色。所以要小心那些拒绝帮助的抱怨者，因为他们总会来找你，你一开始可能会为他们感到难过。
You're going to be like, wow, they really had a hard time. Wow. You know, I wonder if I could help them this way and then you start to realize they don't want help. They don't want to be helped. They will reject any help that comes their way because if they get help, they can't complain anymore. I'm guessing you see this sometimes in therapy. Oh, and in the world. Yeah. We've been making a fair number of assumptions about relationship structure. There's so many different permutations these days that we don't have to explore them all. But do you think that some people are just not well suited for romantic relationships?
你可能会想：“哇，他们真的经历了很困难的时期。哇。” 然后你会想知道自己是否可以通过某种方式帮助他们，然而你逐渐意识到他们并不想要帮助。他们会拒绝任何形式的帮助，因为一旦接受帮助，他们就无法再抱怨了。我猜你有时会在治疗中看到这种情况，哦，在现实世界中也是这样。是的。我们对关系结构做了不少假设。如今有太多不同的组合，我们不需要逐一探讨。但你认为有些人真的不适合恋爱关系吗？
I've known a few people in my lifetime a former advisor who he passed away, as I mentioned earlier, but who had tried romantic relationships and decided they weren't for him. Most everyone I know in my life is either partnered or yeah, pretty much. Thank goodness happily so. But are there people for whom like they just opt out of the game for reasons that are healthy as opposed to fear of rejection or otherwise? I think that we are wired to want to love and be loved. Whatever that means, it could there's all kinds of love. There's all kinds of ways to love.
在我的人生中，我认识过一些人，其中包括一位已故的前顾问，就像我之前提到的那样，他曾尝试过恋爱关系，但最终觉得这并不适合他。在我认识的人中，大多数都处于伴侣关系中，并且大多数都是幸福的。但确实存在一些人，他们选择不参与这种“游戏”，而原因是健康的，而不是因为害怕被拒绝或其他因素。我认为我们生来就渴望爱与被爱。无论这意味着什么，爱情有很多种表达方式，爱的方式也有很多种。
I think that people don't know how to love and be loved if they haven't seen it. So generally you learn that because you've had it modeled for you or if you haven't had it modeled for you, you buy trial and error, start to learn these things. Maybe you go to therapy and you learn more about it. But I think no matter what people come to therapy for, no matter what we call the presenting problem, you know, they're coming because whatever they want to say it is, deep down something got kind of ruptured in the love or being loved area of their life. And really that's the core of it and we have to solve that problem so that the problem they came in for, you know, it's kind of like you're dealing with content, which is like here's the problem and process, which is what's going on underneath.
我认为，如果人们没有见过如何去爱和被爱，他们就不会知道怎么做。通常情况下，你之所以懂得爱和被爱，是因为你曾看到过这样的榜样。如果你没有这样的榜样，就只能通过反复尝试来学习这些东西。也许你会去接受心理治疗，从中学到更多。但是我认为，无论人们为什么去接受心理治疗，不管他们怎么称呼自己面临的问题，归根结底，都是因为他们在“爱或被爱”这个领域出现了某种破裂。这实际上才是问题的核心，我们必须解决这个问题，与此同时处理的是表面的问题和深层次的问题。因此，我们需要一边解决表面上显现的问题，一边处理其底层的原因。
And if we can solve the process, then you solve content in multiple areas of your life. It's not just this one problem that you came in with, but generally if you learn at the core what the issue is that gets in the kind of lover, be loved area, you learn how to navigate through the world differently in your professional life and your romantic life and your platonic friendship life and your family life. So it's not just therapy, isn't just about solving like that one discrete problem. Sometimes it is, but many times it's about if we can get to the deeper process issue, then you will solve so many different problems simultaneously.
如果我们能解决这个过程，那么你就能解决生活中多个领域的问题。不仅仅是你开始时遇到的那个特定问题，而是通常来说，如果你能理解在恋爱、被爱这个领域中阻碍你的核心问题，你就能在职业生活、爱情生活、朋友关系和家庭生活中以不同的方式前行。因此，治疗并不仅仅是解决某个单一的问题。有时候确实是这样，但更多的时候，如果我们能够深入发现问题的核心过程，你就能同时解决很多不同的问题。
Throughout today's conversation, I feel like what seems to be in contrast is our stories about ourselves and other people and life versus just really being present. This image of the Teflon pan is really kind of looping in my head because this idea that you know positive thing happens, it slips right off. Negative things sticks. What does that mean? It's like we create a story about the negative thing and that the story about the positive thing was a very brief story. It was like one of those three sentence poems or something and then it's gone.
在今天的谈话中，我感觉到我们对自己、他人以及生活的看法和我们真正活在当下之间存在对比。脑海中不断浮现的不粘锅的画面，也让我想到一种现象：好事发生了，就像滑过不粘锅一样，很快就消失了；而坏事却会粘住不放。这是什么意思呢？这就像我们总是会围绕发生的坏事构建一个故事，而对好事的故事却非常简短，就像那种只有三句的诗，转瞬即逝，然后就消失了。
Versus presence like the more presence we can bring to something the more positive meaningful experience we can extract from it. I really believe this. I learned this in science actually because I had a absolutely spectacular neuroanatomy professor when I was an undergraduate and he said when you look down the microscope, if you're looking for something, you'll find it. But you're going to miss all this context of like the inputs to that structure and you lose the pattern recognition that's going to serve you going forward.
与其说是对比，不如说是专注：我们投入到某件事上的注意力越多，就越能从中获得积极而有意义的体验。我真的相信这一点。我其实是从科学中学到了这个，因为我在大学时有一位非常出色的神经解剖学教授，他说，当你在显微镜下观察时，如果你专注于寻找某个特定的东西，你就一定能找到。但这样一来，你就会错过这背后的许多背景信息，比如说与该结构相关的输入信息，并且你会失去对模式的识别能力，而这种对模式的识别在你今后的学习中将是非常有用的。
So I learned I had this but I had so much time back then. I would just sit at night as a graduate student after I left my undergrad and went on to a lab and I would just stare at brain tissue and you learn and about it in conscious and unconscious ways. And then later when you're doing an experiment, you see things like oh there's a deficit here. There's a real effect here. And you learn that through presence you're experiencing so much differently than if you go looking for something in science. If you go looking for something, it's actually bad science. Right.
所以我了解到这一点，不过当时我有很多时间。作为一名研究生，我离开本科后就进入了一个实验室，晚上时我常常坐着观察脑组织，通过有意识和无意识的方式学习。当你后来做实验时，你会注意到，比如说这里有缺陷，这里有真实的效果。通过这种亲身经历，你会感受到与刻意去寻找东西的科学方式完全不同。如果你刻意去找某样东西，那其实不算是好的科学。
And I've tried to transport that onto relationship in some ways like in relation to things and people and dogs and all the things in life if you're really present. Like the story's writing itself but you're not scripting it out. I don't know I don't think I have a language for this. Rick Rubens talked a little bit about this in his book The Creative Act. Like we need to be on the front end of the of the vehicle experiencing space and time as it's happening as opposed to sitting next to it or in it and kind of creating a narrative about what's happening around us.
我尝试把这种感受运用到与事物、人与狗以及生活中的各个方面的关系上，前提是你要真正活在当下。这种感觉就像故事在自己展开，而不是由你去编写。我不知道该如何确切表达这种感觉。Rick Rubens在他的书《创意行为》中也谈到了一些类似的内容。他认为我们应该身处体验的前端，感受当下正在发生的时空，而不是在旁观或身处其中，对周围发生的事情不断地自我叙述。
Does that make sense? Yes. Right. So most of us, all of us are myself included. You, all of us, were unreliable narrators because we're only telling the story through our own lens. And so it's really important for people to kind of be expansive about what the story might be about themselves. Like someone might have a story I'm unlovable or I can't trust anyone or nothing will ever work out for me. That's their story that they're carrying around from childhood or from, you know, some experience that they had in life. And they don't realize that they're carrying that story around. So everything that they experience is viewed through that lens.
这有道理吗？有道理。对的。 所以大多数人，包括我自己，你，我，所有人，都是不可靠的叙述者，因为我们只通过自己的视角来讲述故事。因此，人们有必要拓宽视野，重新看待自己可能的故事。比如说，有人可能认为自己不值得被爱，或者不能信任任何人，或生活对自己永远不会有好事。这是他们从童年或某些人生经历中带来的故事，而他们没有意识到自己一直背负着这些故事。因此，他们对所经历的一切都是通过这种视角去看待的。
And so of course they're not finding, you know, they're not finding people they trust because their whole world view is I can't trust anyone even if the person might be trustworthy or they feel unlovable. So of course they can't take in the love that they're getting because again, what are they paying attention to this predominant storyline. So they need to rewrite the story. I created this workbook that's a step by step guide. I'm not sort of doing this to plug the workbook. I'm saying it's a very methodical process.
当然，他们找不到可以信任的人，因为他们的整个世界观是“我无法信任任何人”，即使对方可能值得信赖，或者他们感到自己不可爱。所以他们无法接受所获得的爱，因为他们关注的始终是那个根深蒂固的故事。因此，他们需要重写这个故事。我制定了一本手册，是一个循序渐进的指南。我提到这本手册并不是为了推销它，而是想说这是一个非常系统的方法。
You have to break down the story and my background is that, you know, I come from a writing background. So I feel like I'm almost like an editor in the therapy room when people come in and they bring this story and my job is to help them edit the story so that this faulty narrative that was never true or someone, you know, whoever told them that story, whether they explicitly said you're not lovable or showed them through their actions that they then felt not lovable, that story was told by another narrator.
你需要解构这个故事。我自己有写作背景。所以，我觉得在治疗室里我有点像一个编辑。当人们带着他们的故事进来时，我的工作就是帮助他们编辑这个故事，以便修正那些从来不真实的错误叙述。可能某人曾明确地告诉他们他们不值得被爱，或者通过行动让他们感到如此，而这些故事本来是由其他叙述者讲述的。
So that narrator was unreliable, gave you this story that now you take as gospel and you move through life with that story. So let's examine that story and can we look for examples of counter examples of when that story is not true because generally there are stories of you being lovable. There are stories of people being trustworthy. There are stories of things working out for you. So we have to really rewrite those narratives and say, you know, what is true and what is an artifact of somebody else's story that we're carrying around and why, why are we like writing the next chapter with somebody else's narrative that we never owned anyway?
所以，叙述者其实不可靠，他们给了你一个让你视为真理的故事，你就带着这个故事生活。那么，让我们来审视这个故事，并寻找与这个故事相反的例子，因为通常会有一些关于你是可爱的故事，也有关于人们值得信任的故事，还有事情顺利解决的故事。所以我们需要真正重写这些叙述，弄清楚什么是真实的，什么只是别人故事的遗留，对我们没有真正的意义。为什么我们要用从未属于自己的叙述来书写自己的下一个篇章呢？
Yeah, it seems that like one of the challenges of being human is unless somebody is a narcissist where they basically dismiss anything that doesn't make them feel good, in which case they miss out on so much of life and everyone can't stand them anyway. If you're a permeable person like you, you're paying attention to what people say, you're trying to integrate that, you're trying to do better, be better. The hard part is being semi permeable. You have to know what to let in, what to reject, what to accept, what to work on. I mean, it's a challenging thing, this process of being a person in relation to others, right?
是啊，做人一个很大的挑战在于，如果一个人不是自恋者，自恋者基本上会忽视任何让他们不舒服的事物，结果错过了生活中许多美好的东西，而且大家通常也受不了他们。如果像你一样是个心思细腻的人，你会注意别人说的话，试图把这些融入自己的生活中，努力变得更好。困难的部分在于要有选择性地吸收信息。你需要知道该接受什么，该拒绝什么，又该在哪些方面努力。这在与他人相处的过程中确实是个很大的挑战，不是吗？
Well, right. And again, the story, think about like how much we tell stories about ourselves and other people that example I gave you earlier about the person who said, well, he doesn't prioritize me because he comes late and work is more important to him. And in fact, he was prioritizing her. So we tell all kinds of stories and we make meaning of interactions with people. And generally, we don't have enough information and we need to say, can we expand this story?
好的。再说一次，想想我们是多么经常讲述关于自己和他人的故事。比如我之前提到的例子，那个人说“他之所以迟到，是因为他不把我放在优先位置，工作对他更重要。”实际上，他是在优先考虑她。所以，我们会编织各种各样的故事，并从与他人的互动中寻找意义。通常情况下，我们获取的信息不够全面，所以我们需要问自己：我们能不能扩展这个故事呢？
What would that story look like if I got curious and ask more about it? Or even just things that happen in our own lives? Can I examine that story for myself? Is that the story I want to tell myself about that experience that didn't go the way I wanted? Or can I look at it a different way? Like, am I a failure or am I actually growing? Right? You can look at the same story the same way. I'm a failure. That didn't work out or, oh, that's really interesting. I learned something really important. And I'm really a courageous person for trying that and now I learned something totally different experiences of the same event.
如果我更好奇，去深入了解那个故事，会是什么样子呢？甚至只是我们自己生活中发生的事情，我能否自己审视那个故事？对于没有按照我预期发展的经历，我想对自己讲述的是这样的故事吗？还是说我能以不同的方式看待它？比如，我是个失败者，还是我其实在成长？对吧？你可以以同样的方式看待同一个故事。你可能会觉得自己是失败者，因为事情没按预期发展；也可能觉得，这很有趣，我学到了非常重要的东西，并因为尝试而感到勇敢，而且我现在学到了完全不一样的新经验。整体来看，这是对同一事件的不同体验。
And I think sometimes the way we get to that story in the moment is to look at our senses. So we have five senses. We don't tend to pay much attention to them. We just think through everything. So can you say in a moment, right? Like even about your partner when you're upset with your partner. Can you say like with each sense? Like, here's one thing I see about my partner that I really like. Even though I'm upset about something they just did, right? Here's something I like the tone of their voice or I like the way they laugh.
我认为，在某些时候，我们可以通过关注自己的感官来找回那个故事。我们有五种感官，但我们通常不太注意它们，而是习惯于用大脑思考一切。那么，你能在某一时刻，通过每一种感官来表达感受吗？比如说，当你对你的伴侣感到不满时，也可以试着对每种感官说出一个你喜欢的地方。即使他们刚做了一些让你不高兴的事情，也可以说出你喜欢看到伴侣的哪一面，或者你喜欢他们声音的语调，或者他们笑声的方式。
You know, I like the way they smell. You know, whatever it is, you know, I like the way you can just reach out. By the way, touch is so important. What I have couples do sometimes when things are getting a little bit escalated in the therapy room is I'll say, can you take each other's hands right now? And it's the last thing I want to do in that moment. So can you just take each other's hands calmness, right? Their nervous system is calming down. And all of a sudden they feel, oh yeah, I forgot what that touch feels like. And you feel connected now.
你知道，我喜欢他们的味道。不管是什么，我喜欢那种可以伸手触摸的感觉。顺便说一下，触摸是非常重要的。有时候，当我在治疗室里看到夫妻之间的气氛有些紧张时，我会让他们牵起彼此的手。虽然在那一刻他们可能最不想这么做，但我会说：“你们能牵一下对方的手吗？”这样会让他们的神经系统平静下来，然后他们突然意识到：“哦，对，我忘了这种触摸的感觉。”这样一来，他们重新感受到了彼此的连接。
So can we use our other senses sometimes when we get really in our head and use it to kind of expand the story and connect and whether it's connecting with yourself. Sometimes you don't with anxiety. We do that. You know, something I can see here, taste, touch, smell. We can do that with a partner too. I feel like the whole landscape around relationships has changed so much in the last 20, 30 years. It seems like in some ways for the better, like there's a lot more discussion about the sorts of things that you're explaining and better understanding of self, how to show up better, better choice making and so on.
所以当我们陷入自己的思维中时，我们是否可以利用其他感官来扩展故事，并建立联系，无论是与自己还是他人。有时候，当我们感到焦虑时，我们会这样做。比如我们可以利用视觉、听觉、味觉、触觉、嗅觉来实现这些目的。我们也可以在与伴侣之间这样做。我觉得在过去的二三十年里，人际关系的整个环境发生了巨大的变化。从某些方面来看，这种变化是好的，比如关于你所说的那些事情有了更多的讨论，对自我有了更好的理解，知道如何更好地表现自己，做出更好的选择等等。
I was thinking about the at the same time, this example you mentioned before, like someone in their teens or 20s will, a couple will break up and then somebody's posting all these things about them that that kind of quote unquote feedback, because it's not really feedback. It's more signaling and posturing about what they aren't as opposed to what the other person is. It has got to create pretty detrimental stories in the person that it's about, right? Because they have the choice of either believing those things or disbelieving them. But it's not really an opportunity for growth in the same way that sitting down with somebody and saying, like, hey, these were some things that you did well and here are some things that didn't go well.
我想到你之前提到的那个例子，比如一个青少年或二十多岁的人，他们的情侣分手后，有人会在网上发一些关于对方的帖子，这种所谓的“反馈”其实并不是真正的反馈。更像是一种表态和炫耀，强调自己不是什么，而不是对方到底是什么。这种做法可能会对被谈论的人产生相当负面的影响，对他们来说，要么选择相信那些话，要么选择不信。但这并不像坐下来与对方交流，指出他们做得好的地方和不太好的地方那样，对个人成长没有真正的帮助。
And I guess how much of the story for men and women, young men and women nowadays and older, do you think like is being written through the, like what we hear about the opposite sex, right? Like in the last, I would say 10, 15 years, it hasn't really been a moment of really trying to prop young boys up and men of it's like, like, maleness is great. Like that's not something you hear very often. Yeah. And I certainly understand why there was a need and an effort to balance opportunities, right? But a lot of young guys grew up hearing that maleness, having a Y chromosome is a bad thing that testosterone is bad or something like that.
我想知道，对于现在的年轻人和年长者，无论男女，他们对异性的看法有多少是被他人讲述的故事所左右的。在过去的10到15年里，我们很少听到有人努力提升年轻男孩和男性的形象，强调男性气概的美好。我当然理解为何需要努力平衡性别机会，但许多年轻男孩是在一种环境中成长的——他们听到男性气质或有Y染色体是一件不好的事情，觉得睾酮是有害的或类似的观念。
And I've been asked to comment on this more and more recently in the press. And I only know my experience and what I observed. But I mean, you take any group and tell them that they're bad. That hasn't really worked out well for any group and then it or for society. When my son was in preschool, there was a shirt that girls would wear little, you know, preschool girls. And it said, boys are stupid. Let's throw rocks at them. And it was supposed to be somehow girl power, empowering, but you don't empower by putting down another group, right? You lift up, but you don't bring down.
最近媒体越来越多地让我对此发表评论。我只能谈谈自己的经历和观察。我认为，无论哪个群体，如果被告知他们不好，这种情况对群体本身或社会都没有什么好的结果。当我儿子上幼儿园时，有一种小女孩穿的T恤，上面写着：“男孩很笨，让我们用石头砸他们。”这似乎是为了彰显女孩的力量，但通过贬低其他群体来提升自己并不是对的。我们的目的是提升，而不是贬低他人。
And my son was so confused by that. I remember he was like, why? What does that mean? And can you imagine if some boy showed up at preschool that said girls are stupid, let's throw rocks at them? He'd be in a different preschool pretty quick. Right. I mean, you know, it's so I think it's interesting to think about how it became that it's very hard for young men to navigate what is masculinity in a positive way look like. And they get all kinds of messages, you know, all men are bad. Men should be more like women, men need to, you know, be this way or that way.
我儿子对此感到非常困惑。我记得他当时说，“为什么？那是什么意思？”你能想象如果有个男孩在幼儿园说“女孩很笨，我们用石头打她们”会怎么样吗？他很快就会被转到另一个幼儿园，对吧。我觉得很有意思的是，现在年轻男性很难以积极的方式理解和表现出男性气概。他们收到各种各样的信息，比如“所有男人都是坏的”“男人应该更像女人”“男人应该这样或那样”。
But know if they are more communicative than they're weak, but if they aren't communicative, you know, like there's there's no kind of right way to be. And I think that I think it's very confusing for you. And like if a young like a teenager or someone in college wants to kiss a girl, right? Like on a date. And they don't do it because like it for like they don't know what to do. Like do I need to say can I kiss you? Right. Which feels a little bit like takes away from the moment.
但要知道，如果他们擅长沟通，那很好，但如果他们不善于沟通，你知道的，其实没有绝对正确的方式。我认为这可能让你感到困惑。比如说，如果一个年轻人，比如一个青少年或大学生，想在约会时吻一个女孩，但他们因为不知道该怎么做而没有行动。他们可能会想：我需要问“我可以吻你吗？”这样的问话可能会让那一刻显得有些不自然。
But at the same time, they don't want to assume that she wants to be kissed. But like it seems pretty obvious to him that like they're standing out in front of their cars in front of the restaurant. And like maybe she wants a good night. You know, it's just so confusing. And I think that, you know, there's definitely, I think a positive correction in what we call toxic masculinity, the ways that that men didn't really assume the personhood of women. But I also think that it's gotten to a place where it's so confusing for both young men and young women to understand sort of how do we how can we be with each other?
同时，他们又不想随意假设她想被接吻。但对他来说，情况似乎很明显，他们站在餐厅前的车旁，好像她想要一个美好的告别。这真的很让人困惑。我认为，这确实是对过去所谓的“有毒的男子气概”进行了一种积极的纠正，以前男性往往忽视了女性的意愿。但我也觉得，这已经让年轻男女都感到困惑，不知道该如何彼此相处。
How can we relate to each other? Where we won't be criticized, canceled. You know, we don't know what's right. Like is it do I do I put myself out there? Do I not put myself out there? Will I get in trouble? And so, you know, obviously it's a good thing that that people are having conversations. And there's more communication around like what is okay? What do you want? Is this okay? But at a certain level, it becomes people are afraid to do anything. Yeah, talk about lack of presence. It sounds like they have to like write the story all the way to the 10 different outcomes for a given action, you know, evaluating if then they're no longer reading the other person's signals. I mean, it sounds incredibly complicated. Right. It is very complicated. I think there's progress too.
我们如何能够相互交往而不被批评或取消呢？我们其实不知道什么是对的。比如说，我该不该表现自己？会不会惹上麻烦？显然，人们开始更多地交流，讨论什么是可以接受的，自己想要什么，这当然是好事。但到了一定程度，人们又害怕去做任何事情。谈到缺乏存在感，感觉就像是人们要把一个行为可能带来的十种不同结果都写出来考虑一遍，已经不再关注对方的反馈了。这听起来非常复杂，对吧。确实很复杂，不过我认为也有些进步在发生。
I mean, I think it's much better than having these situations where men just assumed like it was okay to do certain things whether, you know, the woman consented or not. But I also feel like the education that they're getting around this, which again is like against it's so complicated because it's positive that they're getting this education. But they don't know what it looks like in practice because the way that, you know, even when you think of like corporate training and you have to watch those videos, right? And, and you know, what is okay and what is not okay? They give the most obvious examples of what is not okay. But then there's just sort of like how like say you're at work and there's someone that you you're a woman and you're at work and there's a guy that you're attracted to because a lot of people meet at work, right?
我的意思是，我认为这种情况要比过去那些男性认为自己可以随意做某些事情，而不管女性是否同意的情况好得多。不过，我也觉得他们在这方面接受的教育有些复杂。虽然很积极地进行这类教育是好的，但在实际操作中他们可能不知道怎样去应用。就像企业培训的视频中，会告诉你哪些是可以接受的，哪些是不可以的。但那些视频只给出最明显的不当行为例子。而实际上，比如说你在工作中遇到一个你有好感的男同事，因为很多人都是在工作中相识的，对吧？
Because it's hard and where do you meet people when you're an adult? Where do you spend all your time? You spend a lot of your days, five days a week at work. So you might meet someone through work and then there's this sort of and maybe it's not someone you directly report to or reports to you. They're in like a different department. There's like a cute guy. What do you do? People don't know. So women are confused too. What is okay? What is not okay? In the ways that organically people used to be able to say like, hey, that guy, you know, I'm going to go talk to him, right? But people don't know what to do.
因为这确实很难，而且成年后你要去哪里认识新人呢？你大部分时间都花在工作上，每周工作五天，所以你可能会通过工作认识一些人。而且这些人可能不是直接和你汇报工作的人，而是来自不同部门的，比如说有个挺可爱的男生。你应该怎么办呢？大家其实都不知道。所以女性们也很困惑。什么是可以的，什么是不可以的？过去人们可以自然而然地说：“嘿，我要去和那个男生聊聊。” 但现在大家不知道该怎么做了。
Wow. Tricky landscape, but you're offering tools for people at least, not at least, but to communicate better and certainly to understand themselves better so they know what they're bringing to the table. Well, I think that it's about understanding that whatever we see in TVs and movies, you know, it's it doesn't look like that. You know, there's always like, you know, somebody doesn't know what to do in a certain moment or something doesn't go the way that you imagine it will go or sexes can be ridiculous at times and you know, all these like weird things happen. I don't mean not consent. I'm talking about like it's just it doesn't look like it does in the movies all the time.
哇，这真是一个复杂的情况。但你至少在提供一些工具，帮助人们更好地沟通，更深刻地了解自己，这样他们就能明确自己能带来什么。我认为，重要的是要明白我们在电视和电影中看到的情景并不是真实生活的样子。在某个时刻有人不知道该做什么，事情也可能不像你想象的那样发展，性爱有时也会显得很荒唐，这些奇怪的事情时有发生。我不是说不当行为，而是它并不总像电影中那样完美。
Well, and sometimes there's great chemistry and guess what? Sometimes there's not like this chemistry thing is a real thing and sometimes it develops over time and sometimes it doesn't. The idea that there wouldn't be much room for a healthy exploration error and adventure. That breaks my heart. I guess that's what I was referring to about things, you know, but young people are smart. They can figure it out and they also like to throw off the kind of like rules and standards of the of the adult generation. So I trust they'll come up with with a better alternative for themselves, right?
嗯，有时候人与人之间有很好的化学反应，你知道吗？有时候没有。化学反应确实存在，有时候会随着时间的发展而产生，有时候不会。如果没有足够的空间去探索、犯错和冒险，这让我感到非常难过。我想这就是我想说的事情。年轻人很聪明，他们能找到解决方法，他们也喜欢抛开成年一代的那些规则和标准。所以我相信他们会为自己找到更好的选择，对吧？
I want to make sure that I ask you about grief when a client is grieving a breakup or a loss of some sort. Do you tell them to feel their feelings or do you tell them to compartmentalize and only feel their feelings certain times a day or do you ever have to say, hey, listen, you know, it's time to bury this thing. I'm laughing because there's no one way to grieve a loss. And even the same loss like, you know, siblings can lose a parent and they'll have very different ways of grieving the loss of the exact same person. You know, there's just no right way or one way. And I think you really have to honor that person's process.
我想问你对于客户在经历分手或某种失去时的悲伤，你会怎么建议他们？你是告诉他们感受自己的情绪，还是让他们分开处理，只在一天中的某些时段去感受？或者你会告诉他们，是时候把这种情绪放下了。我笑是因为没有一种固定的方式去度过失去。即便是类似的失去，比如兄弟姐妹同时失去父母，他们对同一个人的失去会有完全不同的悲伤方式。实际上并没有正确或唯一的方式。我认为，我们需要尊重每个人的处理过程。
And what I mean by that is it doesn't mean sort of, you know, just spend the rest of your life like dwelling and not living, right? But I think people have this misconception about grief that somehow you're going to get over it. And often, we carry those losses with us throughout our lives. Like you lose someone important to you, you're going to feel that loss. And you might feel it in different ways at different times. If someone was important to you and you lost that person and you hadn't thought about them in a while and then you're in an elevator and you hear this music, this song, and all of a sudden it's like someone just stuck a knife in your heart, even though you were doing fine.
我的意思并不是说让你一直沉浸在痛苦中、放弃生活。很多人误以为悲伤会完全过去，但实际上，很多时候这些失去会伴随我们一生。当你失去了一个对你很重要的人，你会永远感受到这种失落感。你可能会在不同的时间、以不同的方式感受到这种情绪。如果你失去的人对你来说很重要，即使你有段时间没有想起他们，但当你在电梯里听到了某首歌曲时，突然之间，那种感觉就好像有人在你心上刺了一刀，即使你之前一切都好好的。
So people, you know, I think that we are the accumulation of all the different people who have been in our lives or better or worse. And everybody makes some kind of impression on us that sticks with us. So I think it's really important for people to understand what the loss is about because the loss can represent lots of different things. You lose a parent, maybe it's the loss of your youth. You're like, oh no, I'm now the older generation. So part of it is the parent, part of it is this kind of closer to death. And what does that mean? You know, you lose a marriage and it couldn't mean, oh, look, just like my parents, they got divorced and I failed even though that's not necessarily the meaning of it.
所以，我觉得我们每个人都是曾经出现在我们生活中的各种不同人的积累，不论好坏。每个人都会在我们身上留下某种印记。 因此，我认为人们理解失去的重要性是很重要的，因为失去可能意味着很多不同的事情。失去父母，可能象征着青春的逝去。你可能会想，哦，不，我现在属于老一辈了。失去一部分是因为父母，另一部分是因为离死亡又近了一步。这意味着什么呢？如果失去了一段婚姻，可能会让你想，瞧，我就像我的父母一样，他们离婚了，我失败了，尽管这并不一定是它的真正意义。
So we make meaning of the loss too. So it's, what does this loss mean to you? How do you make sense of it? How do you sit with the loss? And then how do you, again, not move on but move forward? Well, that concept, we integrate the things better for better or worse into us, but moving forward is something I think everyone would probably want, one would hope.
所以我们也会去理解这种失去的意义。这是关于，这个失去对你意味着什么？你如何去理解它？你如何与失去共处？然后，不是要忘记，而是要继续前进？这个概念是关于我们将这些经历、无论好坏，融入到我们自身中，而继续前进是我认为每个人都希望能够做到的事情。
Yeah. I know you're not here to promote anything, but you caught my attention with this workbook because I think I and a number of people probably want to think about how to put some of this into action and you've given us a lot of great tools to do that and a lot of different ways to think about things. I certainly am taking notes. Can you tell me about the notebook and what the notebook is and what, who can make use of it?
好的。我知道你不是来推广任何东西的，但这个工作手册引起了我的注意，因为我和很多人可能都希望能付诸实践，而你提供了很多很好的工具以及不同的思维方式。我当然在认真做笔记。你可以告诉我这个笔记本是关于什么的吗？以及谁可以使用它？
Yeah. This, by the way, folks, this wasn't preceded into the conversation. We'll talk about the notebook. I just want to know for people one understand how to do good work. It sounds like a great tool. Right. So the workbook came about because I wrote this book called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone and it's the stories of it's my story going to therapy and then it's the story of these four other patients that I had and my working with them.
好的，大家。这段内容并没有事先准备好。我们要谈谈这本笔记本。我只是想让大家知道，这是一种帮助人们做好工作的好工具。事情是这样的：我之前写了一本书，叫《也许你该找人聊聊》。这本书讲述了我去做心理治疗的故事，以及我和四位病人的故事。
And people said, wow, there was so much that made me think or feel or resonate with, but I need some structured, like, sort of a step-by-step guide to how I can make those kinds of changes too, and maybe they don't have access to therapy or they don't want to go to therapy. They want to work on it in a different way. And I really wanted, I feel like therapy is this thing where certain people, you know, it's sort of like one-on-one or if you have a couple, it's like, you know, three people in the room.
人们说：“哇，这里面有很多内容让我思考、感触或者产生共鸣，但我需要一种结构化的指导，比如一个循序渐进的指南，来教我怎么也可以进行这样的改变。而且可能他们无法获得治疗服务，或者他们不想去进行治疗。他们希望以另一种方式来解决问题。我真的很想提供帮助，因为我觉得治疗往往是那种特定的人才能参与的事情，通常是一个对一个，或者是情侣的话，就是房间里的三个人一起进行。”
And how do you bring that out so other people can use those tools? So I created basically a workbook that's a companion to maybe You Should Talk to Someone. And it's, I really focused on stories because I feel like the narratives that we carry around shape so much of how we think feel and act every day. So it's a guide that really, it's what I would do with someone in the therapy room if I were helping them to rewrite their story and to look at, is this a faulty narrative? What does this look like?
如何将这些工具呈现出来，让其他人也能使用？所以我基本上制作了一本与《或许，你该找人聊聊》配套的工作手册。我非常注重故事，因为我觉得我们携带的故事情节在很大程度上塑造了我们的日常思维、感受和行为。因此，这本指南实质上是我在治疗室里与某人合作时会做的事情，帮助他们重写自己的故事，审视这些故事是否存在问题或错误以及它们是什么样子。
What are the true stories? What resonates with me now? This part of my life, where do these stories come from? Who told me these stories? Can I try this out in real life? Here's an exercise to do this week. So I think that more of us sometimes need that kind of guidance. It's one thing to theoretically think about something. And as a therapist, I'm just very direct and active anyway. As I said, you know, the insight is the booby-price of therapy that I want people to have more than insight.
真实的故事是什么？现在让我感触深刻的是什么？这一段生活，这些故事从哪里来？是谁告诉我的这些故事？我能在现实生活中尝试一下吗？这里有个本周可以做的练习。我认为，我们很多时候都需要这样的指导。理论上思考是一回事。而作为一名治疗师，我本身就非常直接和主动。正如我所说，洞察力只是心理治疗的意外之喜，我希望人们能得到的不仅仅是洞察力。
I want them to have a plan with action. And I want them to have small manageable steps because I feel like if you get overwhelmed and the step is too big, that's really the only reason that people don't succeed at a change they want to make. It's that you need the steps to be manageable. So I really break it down for people, you know, how can we do this? It's kind of like weekly therapy. It's like, how can we do this this week and work on that? And then you can kind of reflect on it. And there's all these different exercises that take you at the pace that works for you. It's great.
我希望他们有一个付诸行动的计划。我希望他们有一些小而可行的步骤，因为我觉得当你感到不知所措、步骤太大时，这往往就是人们无法实现想要改变的唯一原因。正因为如此，我们需要让步骤变得易于管理。因此，我会为大家详细分解，看看我们该如何实现这一步。这有点像每周的心理辅导：我们这一周该怎么做，然后着手去做？完成后，还可以进行一些反思。并且，这里有各种各样的练习，可以按照适合你的节奏进行，真不错。
I'm a huge fan of workbooks and online courses. I'm taking an online course right now just for my own enrichment. I'm going to get your notebook. I think it's a fabulous idea. I think there's so many books about the changes we can make and in any domain of health, wellness, psychology, fitness, whatever. And we read it, we might incorporate one or two little snippets and then it goes on the shelf and then we're proud to have it on our shelf because it says something about how we view life and it's cool to see those books elsewhere.
我非常喜欢工作手册和在线课程。现在我正在上一个在线课程，纯粹是为了自我提升。我打算买你的笔记本，我觉得这是个很棒的主意。我觉得有很多书籍都在讨论我们可以做出的改变，无论是在健康、保健、心理学、健身等任何领域。我们读这些书，可能会采纳其中的一两条小建议，然后就把书放在书架上了。看到那些书在那里，我们会感到自豪，因为它们反映了我们对生活的看法，而且在别的地方看到类似的书也很酷。
And all that's wonderful. But I think workbooks are like a real thing. So we'll put a link to that. Again, this came up spontaneously, but I know a number of people want to know that I have one more question. You write this column. Is it a weekly column? Every two weeks I write ask that they're pissed. Yeah. Are there things thematically that are coming up more these days? Like you're getting a thousand letters about blank and then two about something else? I mean, where are things batching these days? There can be more than one bin, excuse me, bin to how it's batching.
这都是很好的事情。但我觉得练习册是一件真实存在的东西。所以我们会放上一个链接。这是自发谈起的话题，但我知道有很多人想知道我还有一个问题。你在写专栏吗？这是一个每周专栏吗？我每两周写一次专栏，专门回答那些不满的问题。那么，最近是否有一些主题性的问题越来越多？比如你可能收到上千封关于某个问题的信件，而只有两封关于其他问题？我想知道最近的问题都集中在哪些方面？可能会有不止一个类别，抱歉，我的意思是多个类别的问题。
Yeah. So I think the same things come up. I've been doing this for so many years. I wrote it for six years at the Atlantic and I'm writing it at the New York Times. And it's interesting because people talk about the same issues differently, but it's the same issue. So someone might say, you know, a lot comes up around, should I cut off this person? Whether that's a family member or a friend, should I, this person did this and boundaries are a big thing and everyone thinks everyone's a narcissist, which they're not. Everyone thinks everyone is gaslighting them, which generally they're not.
好的，我觉得每次都是相同的问题出现。我已经做这件事很多年了，之前在《大西洋》写了六年，现在在《纽约时报》写。很有趣的是，人们用不同的方式讨论相同的问题，但本质上还是同样的问题。比如，有人可能会问，是否应该和某个人断绝关系？无论这是家庭成员还是朋友，还有就是这个人做了某些事，谈论边界的事情很重要。而且很多人觉得别人是自恋狂，但其实不是。大家还常觉得别人是在对他们实施煤气灯效应，但一般来说也不是。
It's all dope. I mean, I'm just, I'm just kidding. They're these by but I mean, like the language is different is what I'm saying, but I think that what they're really struggling with and what we all struggle with are relating. It's hard. Humans are unpredictable. Humans are, well, in some ways, they're very predictable, but I think they're hard for another person to understand in that way going back to the operating instructions that sometimes you think this is going to be the expected response and you get something completely different.
这真是太酷了。我的意思是，我只是开玩笑。不过，我的意思是，语言不同。这是我想表达的意思，但我认为他们真正遇到的困难，以及我们所有人难以应对的，是人际关系。它真的很难。人类是无法预测的。在某些方面，人类是可以预测的，但我认为从这个角度来看，他们很难被另一个人理解。有时候，你认为会有预期的反应，结果却完全不同。
They can't understand why a friend or a family member or a coworker or whatever would do or say or think something. I think at the end of the day, people really know what the answer to the question is, but they want permission. So so many times people say like, you know, what do you think about this or I really want to do this, but the people in my family think this. And so they're almost asking for permission that it's okay to want something. It's okay. We are so cautious about desire in our culture that sometimes we think that if I have a desire, it's indulgent.
他们无法理解为什么朋友、家人或同事会做某些事情、说某些话或抱有某种想法。我觉得最终，人们其实心里有数，只不过是想得到认可。因此，很多时候人们会说“你怎么看”或者“我真的很想这么做，但我家里人是这么想的”。其实，他们是在寻求一种认可，希望被允许去渴望些什么。没关系的。在我们的文化中，我们对欲望非常小心，以至于有时候我们觉得有渴望就是一种放纵。
As opposed to you should have desires, live a big life. I always say to people, when you're making a decision, choose the bigger life. That's how you make the decision. And I heard that somewhere. It's not mine originally, but I think it's so true that it's okay to have these desires, but then we get these messages from our culture or our friend group or families that no, no, no, it's not okay. And so a lot of people want permission that it's okay that you don't want to go to medical school. You know, it's okay.
与其说你应该有欲望，过大的人生，我总是对人们说，当你在做决定时，要选择更大的人生。就是这样做出选择的。我在某个地方听到过这句话，虽然不是我原创的，但我认为非常正确。有这些欲望是可以的，但我们总会从文化、朋友圈或家庭中接收到一些信息，说不，不，不，这样不好。所以，很多人需要被允许去接受自己不想读医学院的想法，其实这完全没问题。
You know, it's okay that you don't want to have children. That's okay. You know, so I think sometimes people want permission, but I think what they're really, I think most of the letters are about, I'm having trouble relating and I don't know if I'm crazy. They're crazy. What's happening? And so they need sort of that person who's going to zoom out and see it from a more objective place and help them to see, again, going back to narrative, both sides of the narrative.
你知道，如果你不想要孩子，那是没关系的。这并没有问题。有时候，人们可能希望得到别人的许可，但实际上他们可能更需要的是理解。有不少人会感到困惑，觉得自己无法与他人建立联系，不知道自己是不是不正常，或是对方不正常，到底发生了什么。这时候，他们需要一个能够从更客观的角度看待事情的人，帮助他们理解双方的故事，看到事情的全貌。
So I'm not just in my column. I don't just say, here's what you should do. I do do that. But I first say, I want you to have some context around this. So here's how you're thinking about it. And that's understandable. Here's the other side of the story that you're not really paying attention to. Now that you have this wider lens, here's how I think this might be managed. Love it.
所以我不仅仅是在我的专栏中简单地告诉你该怎么做。我确实会给建议，但我首先会说，我希望你能有一些背景了解。这是你当前的思考方式，这是可以理解的。但这里还有你没有注意到的另一面。现在，当你有了更广阔的视角后，我会告诉你我认为可以怎么处理。希望你喜欢。
I love this concept of make the choice that is going to bring the bigger life. Because as you point out, so easy for people to stay stuck in what is unpleasant, but hasn't killed them yet. Or they're waiting for something like, I will buy a house when. I will look for a partner when, as if there are these prerequisites that need to happen, because that's the conventional view of the order in which you should live your life. I won't buy a house until I'm married, as opposed to why? Why can't you buy a house that you like if you have the money to do that? Why do you have to wait for marriage for that? Or I won't look for a partner until I have this kind of job. You have to have all these little pieces in this order and there are so many different ways to live your life.
我喜欢这个理念：做出能带来更大生活的选择。正如你所指出的，人们很容易陷在让自己不快但尚未致命的状况中。他们总是在等什么，比如“我会买房子，但要等到某个时候”、“我会找伴侣，但要等到某个时候”，仿佛这些事情必须按特定顺序发生，因为这是传统观念中生活的顺序。我不会在结婚前买房，为什么呢？如果你有钱，为什么不能买自己喜欢的房子呢？为什么一定要等到结婚？或者说我不会在找到某类工作之前找伴侣。似乎一切都要按照这种顺序来，但其实生活有很多种不同的活法。
And sometimes, by the way, you might want to live your life in that conventional order, but it just doesn't work out that way for you. So you might have to switch up the order and that's okay. I love a vote in favor of people enjoying their life more. And hopefully deriving more self-respect by doing it. This is a set of sys of, we're going to deprive ourselves of things in order to respect ourselves. Even though I value discipline and I think learning to enjoy life is also important. Right. And I think that when we talk about, we're not talking about hedonism, we're talking about reflecting on what will make a meaningful, purposeful life for you and then being very intentional about going after that goal.
有时候，你可能想按照传统的顺序去生活，但生活并不总是如愿以偿。所以你可能需要调整顺序，这也没问题。我赞成让人们更享受生活，希望通过这样做能增强自尊。这是一种新的思维方式，不是通过剥夺来尊重自己。尽管我重视自律，但我也认为学会享受生活同样重要。当我们讨论这个问题时，我们谈的并不是享乐主义，而是思考什么能让你的生活更有意义和目标，然后非常有意图地去追求那个目标。
So much here. Laurie, thank you so much for the work you do with your patients, slash clients, slash we don't have a better word for it. And also your willingness to get out and teach and literally every two weeks, field questions from the general public. It's not easy to do, I imagine. And clearly, you're thinking about things past, present, and future. And people really need these tools. And not everyone will make it into your office, unfortunately, and have the the experience of working one on one with you. But I think that the workbook, I'm so glad that came up so that people have an opportunity to put these things into action.
这里的信息量很大。劳瑞，非常感谢你为患者/客户/我们没有更好的词来形容的人所做的工作。同时，也感谢你愿意外出教学，并且几乎每两周一次接受公众的提问。我想，这并不容易做到。而且显然，你一直在思考过去、现在和未来的事情。人们确实需要这些工具。不幸的是，并不是每个人都能到你办公室亲身与您一对一合作，但我很高兴提到这本练习册，这样人们就有机会将这些方法付诸实践。
And you've given us a ton to work with here. I listed out many things. I won't list them out here with time stamp this episode in detail so people can go back and find them. But yeah, I've learned a ton. I'm going to put this to action. And hopefully you'll come back again and talk with us about what's new because I know this is an evolving field. And as the landscape of society changes, we're going to need new tools. But it sounds like the fundamentals are really in there. It involves self-reflection. I love this thing about a list of the things that make us difficult to be with. As opposed to the list of the things we want and other people.
你给我们提供了很多有用的信息。我列出了很多事情，但在这里我不会一一列出并附上时间戳，这样人们可以回去查看。不过，我确实学到了很多。我打算把这些知识付诸实践。希望你能再次回到这里，与我们讨论新的进展，因为我知道这是一个不断发展的领域。随着社会形势的变化，我们将需要新的工具。但听起来基本原则已经很清晰了，其中包括自我反思。我特别喜欢这个关于列出我们自身难处的想法，而不是只列出我们在别人身上想要的东西的清单。
And that Teflon pan is something I'm going to think about a lot. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for this conversation. I love having these longer conversations and really exploring what it means to be human. Thank you. You've certainly enriched my thinking about it. And I'm sure everyone listening as well. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Laurie Gottlib. I hope you found it to be as interesting and as actionable as I did. To learn more about Laurie Gottlib's work and to find links to her excellent book and other resources, please see the show note captions.
这口特氟龙锅让我印象深刻，我会经常想起它。非常感谢这次对话。我非常喜欢这种深入的交流，探讨人类的意义。谢谢你，你的见解丰富了我的思考，我相信听众们也会觉得受益匪浅。非常感谢你。感谢您参与今天与Laurie Gottlib的讨论，希望您和我一样觉得有趣且实用。若想了解更多关于Laurie Gottlib的作品和链接到她的优秀书籍及其他资源，请查看节目的说明文字。
If you're learning from Endor and enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.
如果你正在从Endor学习并喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是支持我们的一种绝佳且免费的方式。此外，请在Spotify和Apple上点击关注按钮，关注我们的播客。在这两个平台上，你都可以给我们最多五颗星的评价。现在，你还可以在Spotify和Apple上留言评论。请查看在今天节目开头和过程中提到的赞助商。这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Hubertman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
如果您对我的播客有疑问或意见，或者有想让我在Hubertman Lab播客中考虑的嘉宾或话题，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有评论。对于那些还不知道的人，我有一本新书即将出版。这是我的第一本书，名为《人体的协议和操作手册》。这本书我已经写了五年多，是基于我超过30年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols and Operating Manual for the Human Body.
这本书涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到与专注和动力有关的压力控制的各种方案。当然，我也提供了这些方案的科学依据。这本书现在可以在protocolsbook.com进行预售。在那里，你可以找到各种销售渠道的链接，选择你最喜欢的。再次提醒，这本书的名字是《人体协议与操作手册》。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Hubertman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Hubertman Lab podcast. Again, it's Hubertman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是Hubertman Lab。这包括Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook和LinkedIn。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中有些内容与Hubertman Lab播客的内容有重叠，但很多内容是独立于播客信息的。再次提醒，我在所有社交媒体平台上的用户名都是Hubertman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，现在就可以免费订阅。我们的月刊包含播客摘要，还有我们称之为“协议”的一到三页PDF文件，内容涵盖优化睡眠、优化多巴胺和有意冷敷的方法。我们还提供一个基础健身协议，涉及心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero-cost. You simply go to HubertmanLab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Laurie Gottliffe. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
所有这些内容都是完全免费的。您只需访问 HubertmanLab.com，点击右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后输入您的电子邮件。我需要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。感谢您再次参与今天与萝瑞·戈特利夫的讨论。最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。