How Managing Your Anxiety Can Make You a Better Leader
发布时间 2023-04-11 13:00:16 来源
Do you have questions about your career? There's another HBR podcast you might like. Coaching Real Leaders takes you behind the closed doors of real-life leadership coaching sessions. Executive Coach Muriel Wilkins helps anonymous guests work through their hardest career challenges. For unexpected insights, get coaching real leaders on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
你对自己的职业规划有疑问吗？还有一款《哈佛商业评论》播客或许会适合你。《真实领导者的指导》带你走进真实的领导力指导课程，由高级教练Muriel Wilkins为不愿透露身份的客人解决他们所遇到的最棘手的职业挑战。要想获得意想不到的启示，请在苹果播客、Spotify或你常常听播客的平台上收听《真实领导者的指导》。
Welcome to the HBR Idea Caste from Harvard Business Review. I'm Allison Beard. The global pandemic did a lot of damage, physically, economically, socially, but at least one positive change that has come out of it is greater awareness of and more public discussion about the importance of mental health. Big name athletes, Michael Phelps, Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka, have pushed the conversation forward by talking about their own struggles, and we've seen an explosion of corporate wellness programs as well as businesses focused on therapy, meditation, or mindfulness.
欢迎来到哈佛商业评论的Idea Caste。我是艾丽森·贝尔德。全球大流行病对身体、经济和社会造成了很多伤害，但至少有一个积极的变化是对心理健康的重视和公共讨论变得更加普及。像迈克尔·菲尔普斯、西蒙娜·拜尔斯和大坂直美这样的知名运动员，通过谈论他们自己的挣扎，推动了这场对话。我们也看到了企业健康计划的爆发，以及专注于疗愈、冥想或正念的企业的出现。
Today's guest welcomes that progress but says we still have more work to do, especially when it comes to our professional lives. She wants to see us do a better job of normalizing things like anxiety and depression, and says that leaders in organizations should not only talk more openly about mental ill health, but also acknowledge the ways that people grow and learn from these challenges, if they figure out how to manage them correctly.
今天的嘉宾欢迎这种进步，但同时也表示在我们的职业生涯方面还有更多工作要做。她希望我们能更好地将像焦虑和抑郁这样的事情变得更加普遍，并表示组织中的领导者不仅应当更加公开地谈论精神疾病，还应该承认人们如何从这些挑战中成长和学习，如果他们能正确地管理它们。
Moira Aaron's Mealy is a consultant, podcaster, and the author of the new book, The Anxious Achiever, turn your biggest fears into your leadership superpower. Hi, Moira.
你好，Moira。Moira Aaron 的麦利是一名顾问、播客主持人和最新书籍《The Anxious Achiever》的作者，将你的最大恐惧变成你的领导力超能力。
Hi, Allison. So as I said, although there's a lot more awareness about the prevalence of mental ill health, there's still stigma around it.
嗨，艾莉森。就像我说的那样，虽然对心理健康问题的普遍性有更多认识，但仍然存在污名化。
Why are you turning that on its head and calling it a superpower?
你为什么要把它颠倒过来，称之为超能力呢？
Moira Aaron's Mealy is a superpower. I think it's time to reframe anxiety, depression's tougher. So let's just focus on anxiety. Sometimes anxiety is a superpower because anxiety activates us, right? It can give us tremendous energy, it can give us focus. We all know that feeling of being about to walk onto a stage or about to give a presentation or do something we really care about, and we feel anxious. And this is good. This means that we bring a level of energy and purpose to the work. On the other hand, anxiety can be awful. It can be debilitating, it can be painful. It can cause you to lose focus, lose joy, and worry all the time. That's not a superpower.
莫伊拉·艾伦的麦利是一种超能力。我认为现在是重新定义焦虑和抑郁的时候了。所以我们只关注焦虑。有时焦虑可以是一种超能力，因为焦虑可以激活我们，对吗？它可以给我们巨大的能量，可以让我们专注。我们都知道在即将上台或做我们真正在乎的事情时，会感到焦虑的感觉。这是好的。这意味着我们为工作带来一定的能量和目的感。另一方面，焦虑也可以很可怕。它会使你丧失能力，痛苦不堪。它会让你失去专注，丧失快乐，总是担心。这不是一种超能力。
Right. But when you stop burying, ignoring, or acting out anxiety and take the time to learn from what it's telling you, it's data, you become so much stronger and more resilient in many different ways. And I believe that's when you get the leadership superpower. And I think that people can understand this concept of anxious achiever never thinking you're good enough, always planning for worst-case scenarios. All of these things can turn you into a terrific performer because you're terrified of failing, right? So you're going to do everything you can to not.
好的，但是当你停止掩盖、忽视或者用行动来对抗焦虑, 并且花时间从中吸取教训，将它当作数据，你变得更加坚强和有韧性，从而以多种不同的方式发挥领导力超能力。我认为人们可以理解这个焦虑的成就者从不认为自己足够好，总是为最坏的情况做计划的概念。这些事情都会使你成为一个了不起的表演者，因为你害怕失败，所以你会尽一切努力去防止它。
And you are a self-described anxious achiever. How do you start to find the right balance, embracing that good anxiety, but making sure you don't let it get to the debilitating side?
你自称是一个焦虑的成功者，你如何开始找到正确的平衡，接受那种好的焦虑，但确保你不会让它变得无法应付？
That's the life's work. And I interview lots of high achievers who often say that for them, the anxiety is like their oxygen, right? And that for as long as they can remember the sense of, I have to do more, I have to be the best. I can't stop now. If I fail, I'm not worth it. The high stakes they put on themselves, they often credit for a lot of their achievements, as you said. On the other hand, this takes a toll. It takes a toll on their mental health. It takes a toll on their joy, on their relationships, on all the good things, right? Our physical health. And so that's the challenge, right? Is how do you develop a relationship with your anxiety? Such that you can say, all right, I need you now. Let's do this. We're on a deadline. And then when anxiety shows up in a place that is not helpful, like when you flood a number in your presentation and you instantly think, oh, that's it, I'm going to get fired, you have the muscles built and the skills to say, go away right now. Not helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
那是一生的事业。我采访了许多高成就者，他们经常说，对他们来说，焦虑就像他们的氧气一样，对吧？自从他们记事起，就有一种我必须做的更多、我必须是最好的感觉。我不能停止，如果我失败了，我就不值得了。他们对自己的高风险投入常常被视为他们许多成就的功劳，就像你说的一样。另一方面，这对他们的心理健康、快乐、关系以及所有好事都会造成影响，对我们的身体健康也是如此。所以这就是挑战，对吧？如何与你的焦虑建立关系？这样你就可以说：好的，我需要你了。我们有一个最后期限。当焦虑出现在不利的地方时，比如当你在演示中出现了一个错误，你立刻想到，哦，完了，我要被解雇了，你就有养成去打发它并告诉它说：现在走开，不管用。是的，是的，是的。
So talk a little bit about your own experience in recognizing that you were suffering from anxiety and needed to do something about it, you know, that it was helping you in certain areas, but you needed to tame it in others.
谈谈你自己认识到自己患有焦虑症并需要采取措施治疗的经历，你知道在某些领域它帮助你，但在其他领域你需要驯服它。
Yeah, I mean, I would say that for me, my anxiety disorder has been with me my entire adult life. I first was clinically diagnosed with anxiety at age 19. I was also very depressed at the time. And often on since then, it's been a defining factor of my career and my life.
嗯，我的意思是，对我来说，我的焦虑症困扰了我整个成年生活。我第一次被临床诊断出焦虑症是在19岁时。那时我也很沮丧。从那时起，焦虑症一直是我职业和生活中的一个决定性因素。
So I had no choice but to not ignore it. It was in my way. I was in therapy. I took different meds. I tried lots of different jobs. It was only until my thirties that I realized I had to make peace with my anxiety at some level.
所以我别无选择，只能不去忽视它。它阻挡了我的前进。我接受过治疗，试过不同的药物，尝试了很多不同的工作。直到我三十多岁的时候，我才意识到我必须在某种程度上与我的焦虑和解。
I'm wired this way. I would get up every morning and I'm like wired for a 12. And that's who I am. And I like that. But at the same time, when I'm tipping over into dysfunctional category or I'm limiting what I can do because of my anxiety, that's when I need to look at it. And I need to take care of myself.
我很自然地这样。我每天早上起床后就感觉能量十足，像准备好面对12小时的挑战。这就是我，我喜欢这种感觉。但当我的焦虑开始影响我的生活质量和能力时，我需要意识到这种情况，并好好照顾自己。
And you are not a trained psychologist, but I'd love to ask you how does someone make the decision that they can handle this on their own or they really do need professional help?
你不是受过心理学训练的心理医生，但我很想问你，一个人如何决定自己能够独立应对，还是真的需要专业帮助？
Yeah, I mean, I'll say right now, my bias is that therapy is a life skill and I wish everyone had access to it. I think that anything that leads you to greater self-awareness is such a gift.
嗯，我的意思是，我现在要说，我有偏见认为心理治疗是一项终身技能，希望每个人都能接受治疗。我认为任何使你更加自我意识增强的事情都是一份礼物。
And we know that from leadership's study that self-aware leaders are the kind of people we want to work for. And so when you examine your mental health, you gain tremendous self-awareness.
我们知道，领导研究表明，自我意识的领导是我们想要为之工作的人。因此，当你检查自己的心理健康时，你会获得巨大的自我意识。
But we can't always access that. I think the key and anxiety exists along a spectrum. All of mental health does, right? At one level, you might have anxiety that is debilitating, right? That is, I can't leave my bed. I'm having panic attacks. I can't even go to work because I'm so anxious. I can't function. You definitely need professional help and a lot of support.
但我们并不总是能够接触到那些东西。我认为关键和焦虑存在于一个光谱上。所有的心理健康都是如此，对吧？在某个层面上，你可能会有丧失功能的焦虑，对吧？也就是说，我不能离开床。我正在经历恐慌发作。我甚至不能去工作，因为我非常焦虑。我无法正常运转。你绝对需要专业的帮助和大量的支持。
At the other end, you have very little anxiety. Maybe you're just lying on the couch watching Netflix. Or maybe you have that good anxiety, that activating anxiety. I think a lot of us right now are in the middle. We have moderate anxiety that we walk around with. We notice it's getting in our way a lot. And it's also pushing us forward. And we're trying to figure out what is my relationship with this going to be.
在另一端，你几乎没有什么焦虑。或许你只是躺在沙发上看 Netflix。或者说你拥有那种好的焦虑，可以激发你积极行动的焦虑。我认为现在很多人都处于中间地带。我们有一些适度的焦虑让我们随身带着。我们注意到它经常阻碍我们，但也在推动我们向前。我们正在努力找出与它的关系会是如何。
And where I see the need to understand this from a corporate level, from a business level, is that so many people act out their anxieties mindlessly at work. And we take it out on each other in its contagious. And that's why it's imperative that we start talking about anxiety in the context of work because we bring our whole selves to work. And sometimes that whole self is really anxious. And sometimes it's a jerk.
我觉得我们需要从企业层面和业务层面理解这个问题，因为有很多人在工作中无意识地表现出他们的焦虑情绪，我们会把它传染给彼此，我们必须开始讨论工作中的焦虑问题，因为我们将我们整个人带到工作中，有时我们感到非常焦虑，有时表现得像个白痴。
So as someone who wants to do better myself at work or lead a team, how do I diagnose that anxiety is becoming a problem needs to be talked about more, needs to be better harnessed?
作为一个想在工作中做得更好或领导团队的人，我如何判断焦虑症正在成为问题并需要更多地谈论和更好地利用？
I think for yourself as a leader, becoming really tuned in and open to when you get anxious, what it feels like in your body and in your brain. And the specific situations that might trigger you is hugely valuable. Anxiety is normal. We all feel it. It's part of leadership. It's part of taking risks and doing new things.
我认为作为领袖的你要变得非常敏锐和开放，当你感到焦虑时，要了解它在你的身体和大脑中的感受。了解可能触发你焦虑的具体情况非常有价值。焦虑是正常的，我们都会感受到它。它是领导的一部分，也是冒险和做新事情的一部分。
And I think the key is being a little bit willing to sit in the discomfort and say, this is making me really anxious. Why am I avoiding calling this person back? Why do I get nauseous when I see this person's name pop up in my email inbox? We've all had that experience.
我认为关键是有点愿意忍受不适，然后说出来，“这让我真的很焦虑。我为什么避免打电话回去呢？我为什么在我的电子邮件收件箱里看到这个人的名字时感到恶心呢？”我们都有过这样的经历。
And sometimes we might slam the laptop and say, that's it. I'm going out. I'm ignoring this. Sometimes we might get perfectionistic and we might spend an hour crafting a response to this person because we're so anxious about it. The magic is in being able to say, wow, this is making me really anxious. I'm reacting in this certain way. Am I reacting in a way that helps me? That's adaptive for me.
有时候我们可能会摔上笔记本电脑，说：“就这样吧。我要出去了。我要忽略它。” 有时候我们可能会变得完美主义，我们可能会花一个小时来构思对这个人的回应，因为我们非常焦虑。魔力在于能够说：“哇，这让我感到非常焦虑。我会以这种某种方式作出反应。我在以一种对我有益，有适应性的方式作出反应吗？”
We can't control who's going to make us anxious. We can't control life's stressors. Every morning when I look at the news, when I hear of layoffs, when I see what's happening with the banks and the climate, I'm beset with a sense of anticipatory anxiety of, oh my god, I have no control. Everything is so uncertain. We can't control that.
我们无法控制让我们感到焦虑的人或事情。我们不能控制生活中的压力源。每天早上当我看新闻、听到裁员、看到银行和气候的变化时，我会被一种预期性焦虑所困扰，感觉好像一切都不受我控制，不确定性太大。但我们无法控制它。
What we can do is say, this is making me anxious. Instead of slamming that inbox, shot, or grabbing a snickers, or reaching for the vodka, or going and running 10 miles, or calling my assistant and screaming at my assistant, I'm going to take a beat and choose how I respond.
我们可以说，这让我感到焦虑。而不是狠狠地敲打收件箱、拍桌子，或者解决不安的方法是吃一颗士力架、拿起伏特加，或者去跑10英里，或者打电话给我的助手并大声叫喊。我要停一下，选择如何应对。
So what is a more adaptive response? What's a better way to respond to that feeling of dread? I mean, the better way is what works for you. It's all personal, right? And we're all human. And our brain is actually trying to help us when we reach for that snickers bar. Our brain senses that we're anxious, we're uncomfortable, and it has learned over time, oh, that if she eats something sweet, she feels better.
那么，有一种更适应性的反应是什么呢？在面对恐惧感时，有更好的方式来应对吗？我的意思是，更好的方式是适合你的。毕竟，这是个人的问题，对吧？而我们所有的人都是人类。当我们想要吃巧克力时，我们的大脑实际上正在帮助我们。我们的大脑感知到我们感到焦虑、不舒服，随着时间的流逝，它已经学会了，噢，如果她吃些甜的东西，她会感觉更好。
So let's go reach for that snickers bar, and then she'll feel better and I'll have done my job. And that's great. We all need some snickers sometimes. But if that becomes your pattern, instead of actually dealing with what's making you anxious, that can be not adaptive. And so I think the question is to ask, am I eating the snickers consciously? Is this a reflexive reaction that I've been doing for years?
那么，我们去拿那个士力架巧克力条，她会感觉更好，我也完成了我的任务。这是很好的。有时候我们都需要一些士力架。但是，如果这成为了你的模式，而不是真正处理让你焦虑的问题，那就不是适应性的。所以我认为问题是，要问自己，我是有意识地吃士力架吗？这是我多年来做出的反射性反应吗？
A lot of us, we launched into perfectionism because that's what we've been doing for years when we feel anxious. And it's rewarded us. It's rewarded us. So it's a cycle. We learn that when we perform, we're good. And so the next time we're anxious that we're not going to be good, what do we do? We overperform. And so that's the question of sort of breaking that reflexive reaction and saying, what would be actually good for me right now? And also good for my team.
很多人，我们都会陷入完美主义，因为这是我们多年来感到焦虑时一直在做的事情。而且它为我们带来了回报。这是一个循环。我们学会了，当我们表现好时，我们是好的。所以下一次我们感到不安，担心自己不能够好的时候，我们会做什么呢？我们会过度表现。所以这就是打破这种反射性反应的问题，问自己现在什么才是真正好的？不仅对我自己好，也对我的团队好。
And so we've talked about self-awareness, but what about being aware that this is happening to people you work with, people you manage? How do you get inside their heads and try to help them? I'll never forget I had a guest on my podcast, Steve Koss, who's a pastor, and he said, man's plating is anxiety. Tell me how. And he said, well, you know, a lot of men feel they need to be the smartest person in the room and they get very anxious when they feel that being challenged. And so what do they do? They man's blame. And so my point here is that it's always helpful for leaders to start with that self-awareness. How am I acting out my own anxiety? Because it is contagious.
所以我们已经谈论了自我意识，但是如何意识到这发生在你工作的人、你管理的人身上？你如何进入他们的内心，试图帮助他们？我永远不会忘记我的播客上有一个嘉宾，史蒂夫·科斯，他是一名牧师。他说，人类的焦虑是人的盘子。告诉我为什么。他说，你知道，很多男人觉得他们需要成为房间里最聪明的人，当他们感到被挑战时，他们会变得非常焦虑。那么他们会怎么做？他们会承担责任。我的观点在这里是，对于领导者来说，从自我意识开始总是有帮助的。我如何表现我的焦虑？因为这是有传染性的。
So it could be really helpful. And again, this takes a lot of practice and awareness to say, what's my anxiety doing to other people? I knew for years that I had a problem with my team when I would get anxious about whether a client was happy or not. I would get all up in my team's inboxes. How's it coming? Can I see a draft? Are we going to make that deadline? Micro-managing, classic anxiety reaction. That was not serving my team.
这真的很有用。但是要实践和意识到，我的焦虑会对别人产生什么影响，这需要很多练习。多年来，我意识到当我为客户的满意度感到不安时，我就会有团队问题。我会频繁找我的队员。进展怎么样？能给我看个草稿吗？我们能在期限前完成吗？这是焦虑的典型反应，也是微观管理。这并没有为我的团队带来帮助。
I think the next piece is having productive conversations in a team. There's a third piece. And this is about understanding and acknowledging the system that you work in. Mental health is very intersectional. Those of us who work in organizations, work in organizations that probably have long held biases, inequality, racism, patriarchy, you name it. And when you are perhaps an other in the organization or you're an only or you don't have much status, you face anxiety for real.
我认为下一个部分是在团队中进行有生产性的对话。有第三个部分。这是关于了解和承认你所工作的系统。心理健康非常有交集。我们中的一些人在组织中工作，这些组织可能存在长期的偏见、不平等、种族主义、父权制等等问题。当你可能是组织中的其他人或者你是唯一的或者你没有太多的地位时，你面临真正的焦虑。
And when you work in an organization where customer service is the number one value, and that means that you're not allowed to go to the bathroom and take breaks, you're probably anxious. And so our organizations and the systems we work in have a big piece of it too. And so the leader who really wants to tackle this looks at their own actions. They help their team have helpful conversations. And they also take account of the system and culture in which they work and how that affects people's mental health because it really does. Yeah.
当你在一个以客户服务为第一价值的组织中工作时，这意味着你不被允许去洗手间或休息，这可能会让你感到焦虑。因此，我们所在的组织和系统也有很大的问题。因此，那些真正想要解决这个问题的领导者要审视自己的行动，帮助团队展开有益的对话。他们还要考虑工作的制度和文化以及它们如何影响人们的心理健康，因为它们确实会影响到。是的。
So let's talk more about those conversations. If I'm someone who is struggling with anxiety and I want to talk to my manager, how do I do that? And then we'll do the flip and talk about how a manager should talk to their team. Yeah. And there's definitely no one size fits all. And I think that this is in the field of workplace mental health. I mean, all of this is evolving so quickly.
那让我们更多地谈谈这些对话。如果我是一个焦虑症患者，想要与我的经理交谈，我该怎么做呢？然后我们再来谈谈经理应该如何与团队交谈。是的，肯定没有一种万能的方法。我认为这属于职场心理健康领域。嗯，所有这些都在快速发展。
Managers have had to skill up so quickly in this area. And it's very challenging. You know, but I think if you're an employee and you are really struggling with anxiety or your mental health in general, such that it is impacting your ability to deliver great work. Pick a time one on one and you can talk to your manager and you can say, I'm struggling. I've been having a hard time. You don't need to give them the details. A lot of us myself included feel like we need to over explain. Mm-hmm. Very good at that.
经理们在这个领域需要迅速提升技能, 这是非常具有挑战性的。你知道，但我认为如果你是一名员工，如果你真正感到焦虑或你的整体心理健康状况非常糟糕，以至于影响了你提供优秀的工作，那么可以找一个时间单独与你的经理谈一谈，告诉他们你有困难，你一直很难过。你不需要详细说明。很多人，包括我自己在内，都感觉需要过度解释。嗯，这是非常好的建议。
Yeah, you don't understand. I feel this way and then I went to my psychiatrist and it says, you don't need to do that. I'm struggling. I'm having a hard time. I think I need to adjust my schedule. Get more time on a deadline. Take a couple days off. If you don't feel like your manager is someone safe, you can go to HR. That's their job. Or you can, if you have a sort of a trusted ally who can help you, you can do that.
是的，你不理解。我有这种感觉，然后去看了我的精神科医生，他说我不需要那样做。我很苦恼，正在经历困难时期。我觉得我需要调整我的日程安排，获得更多的截止日期时间，休息一两天。如果你感觉自己的经理不安全，可以去人力资源部门。那是他们的工作。或者，如果你有一个可信赖的盟友可以帮助你，你也可以这样做。
I think the conversation gets scary for managers when they think that they're going to be in a staff meeting and everyone is just going to start talking about their anxiety in the meeting and it's going to feel out of control and there's no boundaries and oh my gosh, I feel like this is group therapy, but I'm not therapist. Nobody wants that. So I think really doing it in the appropriate setting and from a framework of this is what I need without giving away too many details is powerful. If you're leading a business today, one thing certain, tech is fast moving and sometimes confusing.
我认为，对经理们来说，谈论这些可能会让他们感到害怕。他们可能会觉得在员工会议上，每个人都开始谈论他们在会议中的焦虑，感觉失控而且没有界限，我觉得这就像是团体治疗，但我不是治疗师。没有人想要这样。因此，我认为在适当的环境和框架中表达自己的需求，而不泄露太多细节，这是很有力量的。如果你今天经营着一家企业，有一件事是肯定的，科技变化快，有时很令人困惑。
Insight story is a new series from Kaspersky that unpacks tech trends to give you insight to make the right decisions for your business's tech and cybersecurity investments. An expert will tackle a current tech trend during each episode like smart energy, AI and blockchain and then you'll hear from someone in business who's using the tech and the decisions they've made and challenges they've faced. That's insight story. Tech trends unpacked for business leaders. Listen now on your podcast app.
Insight story是Kaspersky新推出的系列节目，揭示科技趋势，为您的企业技术和网络安全投资提供洞察力，帮助您做出正确的决策。在每一集中，专家将探讨当前的科技趋势，例如智能能源、人工智能和区块链，然后您将听到一位商界人士如何使用这些技术，他们做出的决策以及所面临的挑战。这就是Insight story。为企业领袖解析科技趋势。现在就在您的播客应用上收听。
Now let's talk about managers who, as you said, have had to become therapists over the past couple of years and I think there's a greater realization that that's part of your job is to care about the emotional lives of your employees, but it can feel overwhelming. How have you seen people figure out a way to have these conversations with their team members but then not be doing what you said, you know, in psychoanalysis for everyone on one meeting?
现在，让我们谈谈你说的经历过几年成为治疗师的经理们，我认为人们越来越意识到，关心员工的情感生活也是他们工作的一部分，但这可能会让人感到不知所措。你看到人们如何找到与团队成员谈论这些问题的方法，而不会像你所说的那样，在每次一对一会议中进行心理分析呢？
Yeah. And a manager should not be their team's therapist. That's not appropriate. It's not what they're trained for. You know, they're not that's not the job and so, you know, one of the things that I like is that at the team level, I am seeing more training for this stuff. Like literal conversation training because a lot of this stuff is about powerful communication and that's what's awesome about it because when you have better communication, you have better teamwork, you have more psychological safety, you have all the good things. So I think that companies are being proactive and trying to give managers tools that said it's really a difficult conversation and it takes practice. And, you know, I think what managers may not be being given as time, to actually fit this in. But I think that what all the literature says is that modeling mentally healthy practices is the first step. And so so much of this, like psychological safety happens at the team level.
是的。经理不应该成为他们团队的治疗师。这是不合适的。这不是他们受过培训的工作。你知道，他们并不是这个职位，所以你知道，我喜欢的一件事情是，在团队层面上，我看到更多的人接受这方面的培训。就像文字交流的培训一样，因为很多东西都是关于强大的交流的，这就是它的妙处，因为当你有更好的交流，你会有更好的团队合作，你会有更多的心理安全感，你会有一切美好的事物。所以我认为公司正在采取积极措施，试图给经理提供工具，但说实话，这确实是一次困难的谈话，需要实践。你知道，我认为经理可能没有得到的是时间，要真正适应这个问题。但我认为所有的文献都说，树立健康心理实践的榜样是第一步。所以，这么多的心理安全感发生在团队层面上。
So a manager comes in and they're like, oh man, I didn't sleep so well last night. What they're really saying is they're being vulnerable. They're opening the door to a conversation about how other people are feeling and signaling that it's okay. We can share now, you know, that's a simple way to do it. A lot of managers now are putting their therapy appointments on their schedules. That's a bold move. Yeah. But if you're not ready to do that, you could put your workout on your schedule showing that you take time. And so there are lots of ways that don't scream therapy and psychoanalysis for managers to show that they value mental health and they value mentally healthy practices.
一个经理进来了，他们说：“哦，天啊，我昨晚没睡好。”其实表达的是他们变得脆弱，打开了谈论其他人感受的大门，也表明这是可以的。我们现在可以分享，这是一个简单的方法。现在许多经理都在他们的日程表上预约治疗。这是一个大胆的举动。但是如果你还没有做好准备，你可以在你的日程表上安排健身时间，表明你重视时间。因此，有许多不会大声喊出治疗和精神分析的方式，使经理们表明他们重视心理健康和健康实践。
So you mentioned organizational systems. What can HR or even the C-suite do to ensure a more mentally healthy workforce? HR is sort of whether rubber meets the road. Right. In terms of making sure there are benefits in place, making sure that people are aware of systems. You know, so many companies for years have had employee assistance programs, but the utilization rate on them is so low. How can we actually get people using this? And I think that's something that's really changed. And certainly the innovation of corporate subscriptions to things like talk space and Lyra Health, you know, and services that are at the enterprise level is really good.
所以你提到了组织系统。人力资源或者高管应该怎么做来确保员工心理健康呢？人力资源是决策和执行的关键。嗯，在确保福利制度有所落实和让员工了解系统方面，就需要人力资源的负责了。许多公司多年来一直有职工援助计划，但他们的利用率非常低。我们应该如何让人们真正使用它们呢？我认为这方面已经有了很大的改进。而且，订阅类似于Talk Space和Lyra Health这样的企业级服务的创新真的很不错。
So HR should be responsible in a larger organization for making sure mentally healthy benefits are in place and then employees know about them. The other thing, and I've talked to a lot of HR leaders about this very topic, the other thing that HR can be really helpful for. And it can be challenging because in a lot of organizations, there's not a lot of trust in HR. But when it comes to mental health, HR exists for a manager to facilitate sort of a safe transition of an employee over to HR. And so if you're a manager and you have a team member who is in crisis, who people are saying this person's not okay or who comes to you and says, I'm not okay, it's okay for you as the manager to call your HR partner and they're meant to come step in and facilitate.
所以，对于规模较大的组织，人力资源应该负责确保心理健康福利的实施，并让员工了解这些福利。还有一件事情，我已经与许多人力资源领袖讨论过这个话题，人力资源可以非常有效地帮助解决这个问题。这可能会很具有挑战性，因为在许多组织中，人力资源的信任度并不是很高。但是在涉及心理健康方面，人力资源存在于为经理提供协助的角色，以确保员工安全地过渡到人力资源。所以，如果你是经理，你有一个团队成员处于危机之中，人们说这个人不太好，或者这个人来找你，并说我不太好，你可以放心地给你的人力资源伙伴打电话，他们将来协助你解决这个问题。
So how should a manager make a decision about whether it's time to hand off to HR? I think that if it's a problem, the manager can't solve or that feels needs more you know, urgent attention than they are able to give. That's when HR can play a really valuable role. When I interviewed Daisy Oje Dominguez, she said something really great, which is you know, you don't want the employee to feel like you're just wiping your hands of them, especially if they're struggling. And so you could say, can I walk you to HR? Can we set up a meeting together? Whatever you feel is appropriate so that the employee knows that you as the manager aren't just trying to get rid of them, but that you really want to facilitate them getting help. And that you also want a professional to advise on you know what the appropriate response is to this particular need?
那么，一个经理该如何决定是否应该交给人力资源处理呢？我认为，如果经理无法解决一个问题，或者认为这个问题需要更紧急的关注，而他们自己无法提供，那么这时候人力资源可以发挥重要的作用。当我采访Daisy Oje Dominguez时，她说了一些很好的话，即你不希望员工觉得你只是想撇开他们，特别是当他们面临困境时。因此，你可以问：“我可以陪你去人力资源吗？”或者：“我们可以一起安排一个会议吗？”你可以根据情况选择适当的方式，让员工知道你作为经理并不是想要摆脱他们，而是真的希望帮助他们获取帮助。你也希望专业人士建议你对特定需求的适当反应是什么。
Absolutely. And then at the C-suite, and this is where my total passion lies, is where we start talking and we break the stigma and the stereotypes.
当然。然后在高管层，这也是我的绝对热情所在，我们开始交谈并打破成见和刻板印象。
I still have a really hard time after all these years I've been doing the anxious achiever getting people in charge of publicly traded companies or people with big jobs to come on my show and say, I have an anxiety disorder. I've been depressed. Why?
多年来我一直在做“焦虑成就者”，努力邀请那些管理上市公司或拥有重要职位的人来我的节目上说出他们患有焦虑症。但我仍然非常困难，为什么呢？因为说出自己患有焦虑症或抑郁症在社会上仍然存在很大的压力。
It's conflated with weakness. Right. They're worried the stocks going to tank or the board won't be confident in them. Nothing is really going to change about workplace mental health until that story changes.
这句话的意思是：它被与弱点混淆了。对的。他们担心股票会下跌或董事会对他们失去信心。只有在这个故事改变之前，工作场所的心理健康才不会真正发生变化。
我的翻译是：很多人认为情感问题意味着软弱，所以他们担心自己的股票会贬值或者受到董事会的不信任。但是，只有当这种观念改变，人们才能真正关注工作场所心理健康的问题。
Yeah, but you have seen as I mentioned in the intro some really high profile athletes take time off. You've seen John Fetterman, the US Senator from Pennsylvania right after being elected, post-suffering a stroke, check himself in to Walter Reed for treatment for depression. So why do you think that it's been so hard for the stigma to fall away in business when it's clearly falling away in these other fields?
是的，但是正如我在介绍中提到的，你已经看到一些非常知名的运动员休息了一段时间。你见过约翰·费特曼，宾夕法尼亚州的美国参议员，在当选后不久，因为患中风，为了治疗抑郁症而在沃尔特·里德医院住院治疗。那么，为什么在其他领域明显正在减少的社会污名，却在商界难以消退？
I had an executive on my podcast just recently Jimmy Horowitz who's the vice chairman of business affairs at NBC Universal. Big job. Yeah. Big job. 20, 47 billion market cap. He does all the deals.
我最近在我的播客上采访了Jimmy Horowitz，他是NBC Universal商务事务的副主席。他的工作非常重要，市值高达2047亿美元。他处理所有的交易。
And Jimmy suffered from clinical depression in silence at work for almost a year. And he said to me, the creatives are allowed to talk about mental health, but I'm a business guy. I'm a charge of our balance sheet. If I say that I'm depressed, will people trust me? And then one day he realized, I can't hide this anymore. I have to tell people. And he told people and it was fine.
吉米曾在工作中默默地忍受了近一年的临床抑郁症。他跟我说，创意人员可以谈论心理健康，但我是商务人员，负责我们的资产负债表。如果我说我感到沮丧，人们会相信我吗？但有一天他意识到，我不能再隐藏了。我必须告诉别人。他告诉了其他人，一切都好了。
And so again, it's about breaking long held stereotypes of what a leader is that has to change. And so I really encourage people who have status within an organization who have influence, who have power to tell their stories.
所以，我们需要打破长期以来对领导者的刻板印象，这是必须改变的。我真的鼓励那些在组织中具有地位、有影响力、有权力的人讲述他们的故事。
And they don't have to say again, I checked into a hospital, but they can say, you know, it's a really difficult time right now. The markets all over the place layoffs are happening. Like we don't know what's going on. Like uncertainty is the number one cause of anxiety for many people. Address uncertainty and how it's impacting you.
他们不必再说我入院检查了，但他们可以说，你知道，现在是非常困难的时期。各种市场都动荡不安，裁员不断。就像我们不知道发生了什么。不确定性是许多人焦虑的主要原因。谈谈不确定性对你的影响。
It's obviously harder when you're from a minority group in an organization as to be vulnerable in that way. So what advice do you give to people in those categories about sharing their own stories?
当你是组织中的少数族裔时，显然更加难以以那种方式暴露自己的脆弱。那么，您会给那些处于这些类别的人分享自己的故事的建议是什么？
I think it's a really personal choice. I mean, if you feel that sharing your story, even if there's a price to pay, is what you want to do if it's within your value system, I think that's great. I also think you don't have to.
我认为这是一个非常个人化的选择。我是说，如果你觉得分享你的故事，即使可能有代价，是你想做的事情，而且符合你的价值观，那我认为这很好。但我也认为你不必这样做。
I think that there are a lot of ERG groups, employee resource groups, and safe spaces increasingly at companies, where people can come together. And I think that if you feel comfortable sharing your story with your manager, that's great too.
我认为越来越多的公司有许多ERG团队、员工资源小组和安全空间，让人们可以聚集在一起。如果你感觉舒适，也可以与你的经理分享你的故事。
But I think that, you know, I just spoke with the Stanford Sociologist Marian Cooper about this. She looks at status with an organization and how that affects equity and promotion and leadership and all this stuff.
我觉得，你知道的，我刚和斯坦福社会学家玛丽安·库珀谈了这件事。她研究组织内的地位如何影响公平、晋升和领导力等方面的问题。
And she said to me, you know, our society's unfair and corporations are biased. And if you are from a group that traditionally has less status or for whatever reason, you are holding less status. It's not your job to disclose. Unless you want to.
她和我说，你知道，我们的社会不公平，公司也有偏见。如果你来自一个地位传统上较低或因为某种原因地位较低的群体，就不该强制你去透露身份。你可以选择透露或不透露。
You talked about layoffs, market dynamics. So when the anxiety is coming from the building, so to speak, you know, the organization itself is causing the anxiety. How should managers deal with that?
你提到了裁员和市场动态。当焦虑情绪源自组织本身时，管理者该如何处理呢？就像楼房的问题一样，组织本身导致了这种焦虑。
I just had this great visual of the whole organization, like the building, wincing. You know, I think this is a time for real leadership. It's an opportunity to say, these are really tough times.
我刚才想到了整个组织崩溃的画面，就像建筑物在痛苦。你知道的，我觉得现在是真正领导力的时候，是表明这是非常艰难的时期的机会。
I have a great example in my book of a leader Avallera during the pandemic when it first started. And everyone was wondering, am I going to lose my job? Am I ever come back to work like, you know, all the questions, so much uncertainty, so much anxiety.
我在书中有一个很好的例子，是大流行病刚开始时领袖Avallera所做的。当时每个人都在想，我会失去工作吗？我还能回到工作岗位吗？你知道的，这么多问题，这么多不确定性，这么多焦虑。
And she had a staff meeting for her team and she said, look, I cannot tell you what's happening six months from now. I don't have a crystal ball. I'm anxious too. But I've got this half hour with you. We're going to put it all in the table.
她组织了一个团队的职员会议，她说，看啊，我不能告诉你们六个月后会发生什么。我没有水晶球。我也很焦虑。但是我有这个半小时和你们在一起。我们会把一切都摆在桌面上。
I'm going to take it away and I'm going to make a plan. We can only control what we can. A lot of anxious leaders try to control everything. But the powerful leadership lesson of right now is, how can I control what I can show that I'm vulnerable to, but have that competency that makes people trust me?
我打算把它拿走并制定一个计划。我们只能控制我们能控制的。很多焦虑的领导者试图控制一切。但现在的强有力的领导教训是，我如何控制我可以展示出的弱点，但同时拥有让人们信任我的能力呢？
Yeah, it is a really difficult time. And I think of everyone's responses to the pandemic. And to some degree, it was very much an anxious achiever response in that we all really threw ourselves into work because we didn't quite know what else to do. But you can only sustain that for a certain amount of time.
是的，现在是个非常困难的时期。我想到大家对这场疫情的回应。在某种程度上，我们都是焦虑的高成就者，因为我们不太知道该做什么，所以都全力以赴地工作。但你只能维持这种状态有限的时间。
So for organizations who are dealing with sort of crisis upon crisis, upon crisis, what are you seeing the best managers and leaders do to make people feel better and protect people's mental health?
对于正在处理各种危机、一波又一波的机构，您看到最好的经理和领导者是如何做到使人们感觉更好并保护他们的心理健康的？
One of my guests said we're not just burnt out or burnt crispy. Yeah, exactly. No. And I think for a lot of sectors, it's never, it's just never let up. And I think we've also come to the place where we realize that inbox zero is not the cure.
我的一个客人说我们不仅仅是疲惫不堪或烤焦了。是的，确实如此。而且我认为对于许多行业来说，问题从来没有消失。 我们也意识到，清空收件箱并不是解决办法。
And so I think companies need to take a step back and refocus expectations. So much of anxiety is driven by expectations. Either the expectations we feel are placed on us because that's how we were raised, the expectations other people put on us. And when we modulate expectations, people can breathe a little bit. And so I think it really comes down to setting boundaries, setting clear goals, defining what's successes.
因此我认为企业需要退后一步，重新专注于期望。很多焦虑感是因为期望所驱动的。这些期望可能是因为我们的成长环境或其他人对我们的期望。当我们调节期望时，人们可以轻松些。因此我认为关键是要设定边界，明确目标，定义成功的标准。
So people really know what's successes and aren't anxiously overworking to try to get there and reigning things in a little bit. Wonderful.
所以人们真正了解成功的含义，并不会焦虑地过度工作以尝试达到它，而是适当地控制一下情况。太好了。
Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I hope that we've helped some other anxious achievers out there. Thank you so much. That's Mora Arons-Mili, a podcast host, consultant, and author of the new book, The Anxious Achiever. Turn your biggest fears into your leadership superpower.
非常感谢您。和您聊天真是太愉快了。我希望我们能帮到一些其他焦虑的成功者。再次感谢您。这是Mora Arons-Mili，一位播客主持人、顾问和新书《The Anxious Achiever》的作者。把你最大的恐惧变成你的领导超能力。
And we have more episodes and more podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization, and your career. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search hbr in Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
我们有更多的剧集和播客帮助你管理你的团队、你的组织和你的职业。你可以在hbr.org/podcasts上找到它们，或者在Apple podcasts、Spotify或你喜欢听的任何地方搜索HBR。
This episode was produced by Mary Doe. We get technical help from Rob Eckhart, our audio product manager as Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates is our audio production assistant. Thanks for listening to the HBRIDA cast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday.
这期节目是由玛丽·多制作的。我们得到了罗布·埃克哈特技术支持，他是我们的音频产品经理，以及伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨作为音频制作助手。谢谢收听 HBRIDA 播客，我们将在下周二带来新的一期节目。
I'm Allison Beard.
我是艾莉森·比尔德。
Hi, it's Allison. Before you go, I have a question. What do you love about HBR? I worked at newspapers before I came to HBR and the thing that has impressed me most is the amount of attention and care that goes into each and every article. You know, we have multiple editors working on each piece. They put their all into translating these ideas typically from academia or from companies in practice into advice that will really change people's lives in the workplace.
嗨，这里是艾莉森。在你离开之前，我有一个问题想问。你最喜欢哈佛商业评论的哪些方面？我以前在报纸工作，最让我印象深刻的是每篇文章都付出了大量的注意力和关心。你知道，我们有多个编辑为每一篇文章工作，他们把所有的精力都投入到将学术或公司实践中的想法转化为真正能够改变人们在工作场所生活的建议中。
If you love HBR's work, the best thing you can do to support us is to become a subscriber. You can do that at hbr.org slash subscribe idea cast, all one word no spaces. That's hbr.org slash subscribe idea cast. Thanks.
如果你喜欢哈佛商业评论的作品，最好的支持方式就是成为我们的订阅者。您可以在hbr.org/subscribe/ideacast（没有空格，全是一个单词）完成订阅。谢谢。