Mori Taheripour: Your Negotiating Coach

Welcome to big questions. This is Count Busman. I am beginning to discover that there are things in myself which I may have been very good at but which I avoided because I didn't quite understand that I was good at them. One of them just may be negotiating. If you think of it as an exercise and curiosity is opposed to one of competition, winning can look a lot different. Both sides can win which is kind of how I see interviewing. When I go into an interview, I win when there are new discoveries. I hope that my subjects also win by making self-discoverys to my questions. I'm walking out glad they did.

欢迎来到“大问题”，我是巴斯曼伯爵。我开始发现，我可能很擅长某些事情，但因为没有完全意识到自己的优势，所以一直避而不做。其中之一可能就是谈判。如果把它看作一种练习和好奇心，而不是竞争，胜利可能就会显得不同。双方都可以获胜，这就是我对面试的看法。当我进入一次面试时，我会在新的发现中获得胜利。我希望我的受访对象也能通过我的问题进行自我发现，他们离开时很高兴他们这样做了。

So my guests don't big questions this week. Mori Tahirabor connected me with a piece of myself. Mori is on the faculty at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Her book Bring Yourself. How to harness the power of connection to negotiate fearlessly gets to the heart of her specialty. And did you hear it? Here's that word again. Connection. Seems like every force in my life is leading me toward that word. Connection. You'll hear Mori and I talk a lot about it. This podcast should connect with everybody because we're all negotiating. We all negotiate with family and friends as well as to work. For those of you who don't like to negotiate, listen up. You just might.

因此，这周我的客人不会问太大的问题。Mori Tahirabor让我找到了自己的一部分。 Mori在宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院任教。她的书《Bring Yourself. How to harness the power of connection to negotiate fearlessly》深入探讨了她的专业特长。你有听到吗？又是那个词，连接。似乎我生命中的每一个力量都带领我走向这个词，连接。你会听到我们谈论它很多。这个播客应该能够连接所有人，因为我们都在进行谈判。我们不仅与家人和朋友谈判，也与工作有关。对于那些不喜欢谈判的人，请注意听，你也许会喜欢。

So let's get straight. Mori Tahirabor. Before we get to Wharton School of Business and Goldman Sachs, how did you learn to negotiate as a kid? Wow, that's a question. So I was born in Iran. So first generation, Iranian American, we came to the US during the hostage crisis, 1978-79. And I don't know if as a kid you ever learn to negotiate, I think life is just one big negotiations as a kid, right? With your parents, you know, all the things that you want, all the things they say no to, few things that they say yes to. And I think that's sort of the push pull and figuring out who's actually the decision maker of the family. Do you go to your dad? Do you go to your mom? You know, the whole understanding that whole landscape as a kid. I think actually kids do it really well because they're very emotionally intelligent and super curious. So I think every kid actually learns how to negotiate it.

那我们来说清楚一件事。莫里·塔希拉伯。在谈到沃顿商学院和高盛之前，您小时候是如何学会谈判的呢？哇，这是个好问题。我出生在伊朗，是第一代伊朗裔美国人。我们在1978-79年人质危机期间来到美国。我不知道你小时候是否学会了谈判，我认为生活就像一个大谈判，对吧？和父母谈判，你想要的东西，他们不同意的东西，他们同意的几件事情。我认为这就是推拉和弄清楚谁是家庭决策者的过程。你去找你的爸爸还是你的妈妈？你知道，了解整个家庭环境对于一个孩子来说是很重要的。我认为孩子们其实做得很好，因为他们非常情感智能和好奇。所以我认为每个孩子都学会了如何谈判。

And then we grow up and be loose touch with all those great attributes like emotional intelligence and being curious and asking questions that we have as a kid. There's sort of that naivete actually I think works in their favor. And as adults, you know, we have bad experiences, we have bad negotiations, people get divorced, people have contracts that are not honored. And so we pick up all these really sort of the scars and the bad experiences that create sort of hurt and pain. And you start not trusting people. And you start not hearing people, you start not seeing people, you're not as curious anymore. So I actually think it's a really great question. But I think every kid is sort of probably at their best negotiators when they're really young. And then life sort of is a doozy. And we sort of lose those great attributes as we get older.

然后我们长大了，与像情感智力、好奇心和提问这样的优秀品质脱钩了。我认为他们的那种天真其实对他们有利。作为成年人，我们遭遇不良经历，进行糟糕的谈判，人们离婚，人们签订的合同没有得到履行。我们承担了所有这些伤痕和不良经历，造成了伤害和痛苦。你会开始不信任人，不愿意听别人，不再好奇。所以我认为这是一个非常好的问题。但是我认为每个孩子大概是在他们很小的时候最擅长谈判的。然后，生活变得困难。我们随着年龄的增长失去了这些美好品质。

Having just taken in what you said, it occurs to me I might be a great negotiator because I have remained childlike in my curiosity all my life. But I never saw myself as a negotiator. And in fact, never thought I was a good negotiator because I wanted to connect so badly that I often would just say, okay, whatever you want as long as we're connected. Is that just me or do a lot of people go through that?

我刚听完你的话，我想我可能是一个很好的谈判者，因为我一直保持着好奇心，像小孩子一样。但是，我从来没有把自己看作是一个谈判者。事实上，我一直认为我不是一个好的谈判者，因为我非常想要连接，所以我经常只说，好的，只要我们连接就可以。这只是我自己的想法，还是很多人都有这个经历？

I think people were journalists, people who are sort of interview people for living, people who make careers out of hearing people and listening to people and being really curious, make for really great negotiators. Because yeah, I think that's part of my strength is I'm just really interested in people. I find them I find them fascinating. And I always think there's like something to learn from somebody. So I'm not at all transactional in that way. So I think, in fact, it's the transactional piece that even I do teach this, don't really value as much. It's sort of everything that leads up to it that I think is so much more interesting, is so much more elegant. But I do think being curious and asking questions and listening to people's responses and not having canned questions and really sort of being in that moment and being really present for their answers makes for a great skill for negotiators. It's fantastic.

我认为记者就是那些以采访为职业的人，他们通过倾听和好奇心创造职业生涯，这些人经常成为出色的谈判者。因为我觉得我的一个优点就是我对人们很感兴趣，我觉得他们很有趣。我总觉得可以从每个人身上学到一些东西，所以我不是以交易为目的。事实上，我认为即使我会教这个，交易的部分并不是最重要的，我认为更重要的是前期的所有事情，这些事情更有趣，也更优雅。但是我确实认为，好奇心，询问问题，倾听人们的回答，不用固定的问题，真正感受当下并聆听别人的回答，这些都是成为一个杰出的谈判者所必备的技能。这太棒了。

But then you said, and when you have these conversations, you're like, yeah, whatever you want as long as we're connected. But I think that the challenge with that is that you're sort of leading yourself out of the conversation. It's also whatever you want.

但你说过，当你们有这些对话时，你会说“是的，不管什么只要我们有联系就好”。然而，我认为这样做的挑战在于你将自己从对话中解放出来了。同时，“不管什么只要你想要的”的做法也是如此。

And so the best part of treating people the way you do and being really curious about them is that you can go into these conversations and it's not a zero-sum game. It's really sort of the value that you place on the connection and the relationship that sort of then changes everything about that conversation because it's sort of a shared experience.

所以，把人们当做你所做的那样并对他们真正好奇的最好之处是，你可以进入这些对话，而这不是一个零和游戏。这真的是关于你在关系上的价值观，以及你对关系的看法都会改变这个对话的一切，因为这是一种共同的体验。

And unfortunately, people who I refer to as pleasers who are highly accommodating and they do whatever they can to make the other side happy.

遗憾的是，我所指的那些人是喜欢取悦他人的人，他们非常包容，尽其所能使对方感到愉悦。

Again, I think that the best part of pleasers is that they've got great empathy for people. They have a lot of curiosity. They lead with those things except they just leave themselves out. So the empathy they have for other people, they don't exercise on themselves.

我认为讨好者最好的一点是，他们对人有很强的同理心。他们非常好奇，并以这些事情为导向，只是将自己排除在外。他们对其他人的同理心，却没有在自己身上实践。

They don't give themselves sort of the priority in any way shape or form. So as a result, over time, I think that actually hinders some relationships because nobody likes to be left out, but you're doing it to yourself to avoid conflict or to make the other person happy, placing that same value on yourself and the things that you need will make the conversation not hard, just sort of like a reciprocal experience and that they value you because you value yourself and vice versa.

他们没有任何形式的优先考虑自己。随着时间的推移，我认为这实际上会妨碍一些关系，因为没有人喜欢被排斥，但你却在为了避免冲突或让对方开心而独自一人。给自己以同样的重视和关注，会让交流不会太难，就像是一种互惠的经历，他们会珍视你，因为你也珍视自己，反之亦然。

Let me give you an experience that really just shot to my mind while you were speaking. Goes back to I must have been like 23, 24 years old and I want you to imagine a long table filled with people between 22 and 25 all are working at the newspaper and they're like having like a great conversational dinner and then the check arrives and it just stopped the flow of all the great conversation because there were two people who were determined to again, if you're thinking maybe there were 16 people at the table.

让我告诉你一个发生在你说话时突然涌现在我脑海里的经历。当时我大概23、24岁左右，想象一下一张长桌子，坐满了年龄在22到25岁之间的人，都在一份报纸上工作，享受着美好的晚餐谈话；后来送来了账单，却打乱了所有美好的谈话氛围，因为有两个人总是要再次坚持某个问题，如果你想象一下那个时候桌子上大概有16个人。

The ideal thing is just to like divide it up by 16, everybody puts in their money and we immediately go back to conversation but no, there were two people who were determined to find out to the cent what everybody had bought and they turned the whole dinner into this investigation, this financial investigation and I just started going crazy and I just grabbed the check and said just give me this and I went and paid it and this is a classic example of why I've never been good with money and why I didn't see myself good as a negotiator because clearly if you were in my seat you would have figured out a different way.

最好的方式仅是将它分成16份，每个人投入钱，然后我们立即回到聊天，但是，有两个人决定找出每个人买了什么，他们将整个晚餐变成了一场财务调查，我开始疯了，然后我抓起了账单并说请给我这个，然后我去付了钱，这是我从未擅长财务和谈判的典型例子，因为如果你在我的位置上，你肯定能找到不同的解决方式。

What's that way? How do I negotiate with those two people? It's funny to say that because again being Iranian were sort of known for our hospitality and generosity and there's nothing that I hate more than arguing over a bill at dinner so I would have been right there with you.

那个方向是什么？我该如何与那两个人谈判呢？说实话，这很有趣，因为我们伊朗人以好客和慷慨而著称，我最讨厌的就是在晚餐时争论账单，所以我会和你一起去的。

I would have been like let's not like this is painful just give it to me and I'll do what I do which makes me happy which I'll spend the money and we'll go back to the conversation and it's not worth the sitting here and doing calculations.

如果必要的话，请改写以下英文，让它像中文母语者所说的话。 我会说，“别这样，这很痛苦，把它交给我吧，我会做我自己喜欢做的事情，然后花这笔钱，我们再回到对话中来，坐在这里做计算是不值得的。”

Frankly I would have done the same thing but probably if you want to talk about sort of having better understanding of your finances and doing this more equitably the conversation then becomes a bit those two people have taken control of it then you suggest something different right you say so why is it their truth that bought out the rest of this sort of process right why did they prevail and it's usually because nobody else speaks up or two of the strongest personalities sort of take over and everybody else it's almost like groupthink even though they're not really happy or comfortable in that situation so...

老实说，我可能也会做同样的事情，但如果你想谈论如何更好地理解自己的财务状况并更公平地处理它们，那么这个话题会变得有些复杂。如果这两个人已经掌控了局面，那就建议提出不同的建议。你可以问问：为什么是他们的意见来决定整个流程呢？为什么他们获胜了？这通常是因为没有其他人发声，或者两个最强烈的人格就掌控了局面，其他人仿佛也在跟风，尽管他们并不真正快乐或舒服。

I think it's the ability to be able to speak your voice or in that moment it would be the discomfort or the displeasure with the decision that they made and you don't have to stand up and start beating your chest and saying no that's not how we're going to do this you could just say you know what we're having such a great conversation we're all who cares what people ate let's just everybody just put in their credit card and let's just do this the easy way and let the waiter take care of it.

我认为，能够发表自己的意见是很重要的，或者那一刻你感到不适或不满，因为他们做出的决定，你并不需要站起来，开始敲胸脯，说不，我们不会这么做，你可以简单地说，你知道，我们正在进行一场很棒的谈话，大家都不在意人们吃了什么，让我们用信用卡付款，让服务员来处理。

I should have appealed to the group and then the group would have been behind me. Appealed to the group and also appealed to the sense of that moment that I think everybody probably had and said isn't that more important like let's just go back to that we're taking time away from the great conversation or the great experience so you know you're not again you're not biting those other two you're just making everybody sort of rethink the decision making and say you know what is right like why are we spending 15 minutes on this why we were having so much fun and so you just propose a different way and a lot of people won't speak up because it's easier not to or they fear that this is going to cause some conflict it's all about... how you say something it's not really what you're saying it's how you're saying it that really matters um but you know you you didn't have to sit there and agree with how they did this with that actually proposing something different the easy thing was taking it and paying it but there's another way.

我应该向集体求助，然后集体会支持我。除了向集体求助外，还要呼吁大家的当下感受，说：“这难道不更重要吗？我们回到原先那个非常愉快的谈话或体验不是更好吗？我们浪费了15分钟，为什么不能继续欢乐呢？”你不是要咬住另外两个人，而是让每个人都重新思考决策，并提出另一种方案。很多人不会发声，因为这样做很难，或者他们害怕会引起冲突。一切在于你说话的方式，而不是你说什么。但你不必坐在那里赞同他们的做法，而是要提出不同的想法。接受和支付这个决定很容易，但还有其他方式。

Okay, it's there I'm thinking of the word manipulation does manipulation come into a negotiation if can it be done in a way where the person who's being manipulated thinks it's actually good for them is that part of this or is manipulation a bad word? I personally think it's a bad word because I think there's again a better way of saying it I mean negotiations is persuasion right and so again appealing to somebody's senses knowing what's important to people and really speaking to them from that perspective which means again you have to be really curious and really understand them but to say you're manipulating them leads no room for them right and is that really what this is all about or do you want to in a lot of ways have them know that you understand what they're saying but then persuade them to sort of choose your interests or go with your whatever proposal that you've made and I think that's so much more I don't know it feels it feels like such a more successful way of doing it because it doesn't feel opportunistic it feels human okay you know with with not any less you don't be any a lot of people say well I'm really competitive then that's how I want to do this I'm really competitive but part of that means is that really the best way to get to where I want to go and usually that means if you treat people a certain way it doesn't feel opportunistic it doesn't feel like manipulation then they're happy as well and all they did was abide by what you wanted it's just you did it differently.

好的，我在想 manipulation 这个词，这个词是否会在谈判中出现。如果可以以一种让被操纵的人认为这是对他们有益的方式来做，那 manipulation 是不是就成为了谈判的一部分？或者说 manipulation 是一个负面的词汇？我个人认为它是一个负面词汇，因为我认为有更好的方式来表达这个含义。我的意思是，谈判是一种说服的过程，所以要吸引某人的敏感点并真正从那个角度与他们交谈，这意味着你必须非常好奇并深入理解他们。说你是在操纵他们，这对他们来讲没有什么留下的空间，那么这真的是所有谈判的目的吗？还是说你希望以很多种方式让他们知道你理解他们所说的话，然后说服他们选择你的利益或接受你的建议？我认为这是一种更加成功的方式，因为它不感觉机会而是人性化的。你知道，有很多人说他们很有竞争力，那么这真的是达到自己目标最好的方式吗？通常意味着如果你以某种方式对待人，这并不感觉机会而是人性化，那么人们也会很高兴，他们所做的就是遵循你的意愿，只是你以不同的方式达成了你的目标。

Okay another image flashed in front of my mind as you're talking I don't know if you remember way back there's guy named Steve Ross who was running time it might been time Warner or the time ink to time Warner and he was negotiating with somebody who was a smoker and they were going back and forth and every time this guy would pull out another cigarette Steve would have a lighter and light it for him and this went on for quite some time until finally the guy said Steve stop lighting my cigarettes app every time you like my cigarettes I lose another 75,000 bucks is that manipulation or is that just being hospitable I mean it's frankly it's that takes a lot of emotional intelligence and you know because you you've obviously paid enough attention to know the person's habits and what puts them at ease right and Cal there's so little of that these days you know people just don't pay attention because they're not sensing that connection or maybe they don't even know how because we're so divided and we're so all our connections are made through devices these days and phones but to me that whole notion of let me light this person's cigarette just says I was paying attention I know that whether or not I like it doesn't matter but this is something that you do maybe put to your knees maybe you're you're more comfortable and I know how you're going to value this I know that this is going to make you understand that you know your comfort in this situation is important to me isn't manipulative I don't know I actually think it's use that hospitable I would agree and it's received that way if it's authentic.

好的，当你在谈话时，另一个画面在我的脑海中闪现。我不知道你是否记得很早以前有一个叫史蒂夫·罗斯的人在管理时间，可能是时代华纳还是时代印刷至时代华纳，他正在与一个吸烟者谈判，他们互相讨价还价，每当那个人拿出一支香烟时，史蒂夫就会有一个打火机点燃它。这一直持续了相当长的时间，直到那个人说史蒂夫停止点燃我的香烟，每次你点燃我的香烟，我就失去另外75,000美元，这算是操纵吗？还是只是做一个好客之人？我的意思是，这确实需要很高的情商，你要付出足够的注意力去了解一个人的习惯和让他感到舒适的事情。而现在这种关注很少了，因为我们没有感受到那种联系，或者可能甚至不知道如何做到，因为我们现在彼此之间仅通过设备和电话进行联系。但对我来说，点燃一个人的香烟这种举动，正是表明我在注意他，我知道这不管我是否喜欢都不重要，但这是他的一个习惯，也许可以让他感到更舒适。我知道这对他很有价值，这可以让他明白，在这种情况下他的舒适很重要。这是操纵吗？我不知道，但我觉得这是真正的好客态度。如果是真诚的，也同样得到了这种回应。

Okay what you just said about connection is something that I am intensely curious about because it seems to me that in the last from between 2019 and now the world has become a different place and this sense of connection that you were just talking about has been just pushed or pulled to extremes and we're not feeling it what does this do to a negotiation it was it easier to negotiate in the olden days or the previous days when there was this sense of connection

你刚谈到的关于联系的话让我非常感兴趣，因为我觉得在2019年到现在这段时间里，世界变得完全不同了，这种你刚提到的联系感觉已经被推到了极端，但我们却感受不到它。这对于谈判有什么影响呢？在以前有这种联系感的时候是不是更容易谈判呢？如果需要，我可以改写一下。

I would challenge that and say I don't know if there was even a great sense of connection there I mean we physically were disconnected because of the pandemic and so being at home not going to work not being in social settings so that created a sort of a natural disconnection but I think that the world has been disconnected for a really long time and you know people have whole relationships on texts I don't even understand that right and so conversation is not valued people don't even listen to voicemails because it's easier to text somebody or not call so that's been in the works for far before the pandemic and I think the pandemic obviously in these past few years have have amplified those things but is negotiations was it easier

我会反驳这个观点，我不知道是否真的有很强的连结感。我的意思是，由于疫情的影响，我们人与人之间在物理上遭遇了隔离，所以在家里不去工作，没有社交环境，这造成一种自然而然的断裂感。但我认为整个世界很久以前就已经分裂了，你知道，有些人完全靠短信维系整个恋爱关系，我甚至无法理解。所以人们并不看重交流，甚至不愿意听取语音信箱，因为发短信更简单，或者干脆不打电话。这种情况早在疫情之前就已发生了，而近年来疫情对这些事情的影响更加明显。谈判会不会更容易？这就不好说了。

I always think that negotiations when done in person or when you can actually see your counterpart is always easier and some people think oh no I have all kinds of courage when I just send somebody an email but the thing is it's strips you of all those things that are like our superpower right the ability to to look in somebody's eyes the ability to you know I'm looking at your background right now and you sort of understand what's important to call that way right and you sort of look at somebody's reaction to you and do they smile do they look uncomfortable yes so you have all your sensory skills and you can sort of listen with your not just your ears but your eyes your heart you know and the depth of that it gives you so much information and what's negotiations if you can't get information because negotiations to me is like problem solving and so the more you have to work with the better the outcome can be in isolation you can't get that in an email

我总是认为当面谈判或实际看到你的谈判对方时，谈判总是更容易的。有些人认为：“哦不，我只要给某人发封电子邮件，我就有各种勇气了”。但事实上，这会剥夺你所有那些像我们的超能力一样的东西——能够看着别人的眼睛，了解对方重视的东西，看着对方的反应，他们微笑了吗？他们看起来不舒服吗？因此，你拥有所有的感官技能，不仅可以用耳朵听，还可以用眼睛和心灵听。这给你提供了如此丰富的信息，而谈判如果你没法得到信息，就像是在解决难题。所以你拥有的信息越多，获得的好结果就越好。如果孤立地通过电子邮件进行谈判，你就无法做到这点。

you know it's funny because I can write a book but it will take me an hour two hours to get out of short email because I'll sit there and start thinking about how will this be received what will they think about this word was this the right sentence and isn't it easier to just get on zoom with somebody and I don't have to worry about that because then I can see how they're reacting and if they frown I can say was I clear about that I can say that a different way or you know that there's so much that you get from that interaction so I think if you value that then the pandemic actually didn't make things more difficult in some ways actually I think zoom was actually a great gift to us because it can be as intimate as you want it to be so when you have the ability to look at somebody you know I and rather than sitting in a top-rights room that's quite sterile or an office that's the same people took us to their living rooms and their bedrooms and their kitchens and you know we have the great privilege of understanding people and what's important to them because we saw so much more and so I think I think the whole notion of this is first of all how much you valued connection and if you already valued the connection then the pandemic may have even made it a little bit easier because first of all we create connection and second of all I think these moments are really intimate you just have to sort of really commit yourself to that it's always easier in person and and I think this is sort of second best of that but people have to value it people have to not be afraid of having conversation

你知道，有趣的是，我可以写一本书，但是写一封短邮件可能需要我一个小时或两个小时，因为我会坐在那里开始思考这段话会被接受，他们会怎么看待这个词，这个句子是否正确。当然，和某个人通过Zoom交流会更容易，因为我可以看到他们的反应，如果他们皱眉，我可以问是否讲清楚了，是否可以用另一种方式表达。这种互动中有很多价值，所以我认为，如果你重视这种联系，那么疫情实际上并没有让事情更加困难，因为Zoom其实是一份巨大的礼物，可以像你想要的那样密切。当你有能力看到别人，而不是坐在一个相当冷清的办公室里，你就能了解他们更多，因为我们看到了更多的东西，比如别人的客厅、卧室和厨房。所以我认为，这个问题首先涉及到你对联系的重视程度。如果你已经重视联系，那么疫情可能会使这更容易，首先我们创造联系，其次我认为这些时刻真的很亲密，只要你真正投入其中就好了。当然亲自会更容易，这就是这种方式的第二选择，但人们必须重视它，不要害怕交流。

You know, I remember when I started to do these interviews with the icons and Esquire Magazine made a point that I be with them. They didn't want, I think, Skype was just coming out at the time, and I was just feeling, you know, I'll bet that if I was doing this over the internet I could be just as good. And one time, I got a chance to pull it off, and I realized just like we are now, we're like six inches apart, we would never be as close in real life as we are right now. So that heartens me because if there's more of this, then it enables me to be exactly who I am.

你知道，我还记得当我开始采访这些偶像时，《Esquire》杂志强调我必须和他们在一起。我想他们不想用Skype进行采访，当时Skype刚刚开始流行，我当时感觉，你知道，我打赌如果我通过网络进行采访，我也可以做得很好。有一次，我有机会实现这个想法，我意识到像现在一样，我们只有六英寸的距离，我们永远不会在现实生活中像现在这样亲密。所以这让我振奋，因为如果有更多这样的机会，那么它会让我成为真正的自己。

But to get back to where you were, you're saying that most everybody or a lot of people are living in a world where let's just text back and forth. I don't even want to listen to your voicemail. If I don't need to give you an immediate response on something, I'm not even gonna send you back an email, right? Right, yeah. For the sake of efficiency, right? Oh, that's what it is, they're just being efficient. I mean, I think that's part of it. We live in that country that we value, we value the rapidity of things, and we value efficiency, which becomes, you know, eating your lunch on the go or, you know, like we, it's so crazy because everything has to be so fast in our culture.

但是回到你之前所在的状态，你是在说大多数人或许很多人现在都生活在一种只靠发短信来往的世界里。我甚至都不想听你的语音邮件。如果我不需要立即回复你某件事，我甚至连邮件都不会发给你，对吧？对的，是的。出于效率的考虑，对吧？哦，就是这样，他们只是追求效率。我想那是其中的一部分原因。我们生活在一个注重速度和效率的国家，这就导致了我们在赶路时吃午餐，或者像我们身边一切都要赶得那么快，这真是太疯狂了。

So I think part of it is also people say, well, it's more efficient, and I'm like, to send the text, is it really? Because you could have, in that, could have been all kinds of things could have been lost in translation, so at the end of it, you're sending 20 texts where you could have sent no text and just picked up the phone. And isn't that more efficient? But I think it's that if you don't value that human personal connection, then that becomes the better option. I just don't understand how that could be unless people are really uncomfortable around people, or you know, in the case of negotiations, they're just afraid of negotiations. But I don't know, I'm that person that thinks, what can beat this? Like, what can really be when you are deeply connected to somebody or engaged in a conversation where you feel that sense of intimacy from just being able to look at each other and assess people's reactions? And like there's nothing better, and that shouldn't be efficient.

我认为这其中的一部分也是人们声称这样效率更高，但我却不这么想。因为在发送短信时，很多信息可能丢失翻译，这样最后你要发送20条短信，而你本可以不发送短信，直接打电话谈判，这不更有效率吗？但我认为，如果你不重视人与人之间的人际关系，短信就成了更好的选择。我只是不理解为什么有人会这么想，除非他们对与人交往感到非常不自在，或者是在谈判时感到害怕。但是，我认为有什么比与人深刻的交流或参与一次谈话更好的呢？你可以直接注视着对方，了解他们的反应，这种亲密感是无价的，也无法通过短信或其他方式取代。

I am thinking as you're talking of two people I know who have a lot of money, like a lot, a lot of money. And both of them, one came up in the Middle East, and another came up in kind of the heart of Africa where basically if they wanted something they had to go to a market and negotiate the price. And from listening to them both talk, it occurred to me that it was almost more about maintaining the relationship than getting that singular deal done. Because if the person who was selling did something to alienate the person who was buying, then he was losing or she was losing all the business that would come. And I'm wondering if we as Americans have lost something because everywhere we go there's a price tag on something, and this is what you pay, right?

我在听你说话的时候，想起了两个我认识的人，他们都有很多钱，非常多的钱。其中一个来自中东，另一个来自非洲中心地带。在那里，如果他们想要买什么东西，就必须去市场还价。从他们的谈话中我发现，维持关系比完成单一个交易更重要。因为如果出售者做了什么让购买者感到疏远的事，那么他或她将失去未来整笔交易的生意。我在想，我们作为美国人是否失去了一些东西，因为无论我们走到哪里，总是会看到价签，你就要付出这个价钱。

I do, I think that's the beauty of some of these cultures that actually really value the relationship but way before the transaction. And look, some of these cultures are, you know, some of the most tough negotiators around. So like when it actually gets to that, you know, it's not an easy conversation. But that's sort of accepted anyway for them. You know, in the Middle East, that's in a run like that's not to negotiate that way, it's not a bad thing. But way before that, when you walked in the store, they've offered you a cup of tea, and you're, you're sort of the hospitality and the grace, and that comes way before the hard talk. And so it, first of all, slows down the process, but it creates this opportunity that the next time you're going to go out and buy something, you're like, "I really enjoyed my time with Salsa. So as opposed to choosing another store, I'm going to go spend my money with that person," right? And for the life of me, I can't understand this notion of sort of beating people down because people say, "Oh, well, I'm never going to see this person ever again anyway. They're in some market, you know, and I'm here. Yeah, I'm visiting, a tourist, so it doesn't matter how I behave." And that becomes inhumane in a lot of ways because I feel like that's the excuse that people use to treat people badly. That's the permission you give yourself because you're never see this person again.

我认为某些文化的美之所在就在于他们非常重视人际关系，甚至在交易之前就注重这一点。有些文化非常擅长讨价还价，但是即使谈判艰难，也没有关系，因为这是被接受的。比如在中东，这种方式并不被视为坏事。在你进入商店之前，他们会为你提供茶水，展现出热情和优雅，这些都发生在艰难谈判之前，让过程变得缓慢，但也为下一次购物创造了机会。那么下一次，你可能会更愿意选择之前那家店，因为你享受与他们共度的美好时光。至于有些人因为觉得自己不会再见到这个人而肆意对待对方，这种行为是不人道的。这是人们用来对待他人不好的逃避责任的说辞。

First of all, how often do you end up seeing somebody that you never imagined you're going to run into? And second of all, isn't it easier to actually get them to do something for you when you treat them better and not try to beat them down? Or if you're more hospitable?

首先，你有多经常遇到从未想过会遇到的人？其次，当你善待别人并不试图打压他们、更加热情好客时，难道不是更容易让他们为你做事吗？

I mean, that's why they do it. They, when you come in, they're offering you, you're going to look at a rug, but the first thing they do is offer you tea and sweets. They're telling you their story in a lot of ways which is, we are a culture of hospitality, and this is just who we are. We open doors to people.

我的意思是，这就是他们这样做的原因。当你进去的时候，他们会给你提供茶和糖果，虽然你是来看地毯的。在很多方面上，他们向你讲述他们的故事，告诉你我们是一个好客的文化，这就是我们的本质。我们会为人们打开大门。

This is what we do. So first, it's the story, and then it's the other stuff. then it's the transaction and I just I just feel like it's so I keep using the word elegant but it's like this beautiful dance the back and forth doesn't become you know like hard bargaining it's just part of the flow of the conversation and it takes time though and we don't give these things time we don't and in the absence of time you can't do it okay so slowing it down is just not possible in many cases now I think it's possible.

这就是我们所做的事情。首先是故事，然后是其他事情。然后是交易，我只是感觉这很优雅，但就像是这个美丽的舞蹈，来回交谈不会变得像强硬的讨价还价一样，它只是对话流程的一部分。这需要时间，但我们通常不会给它们时间，缺乏时间，你无法做到。现在我认为可能是可能的，但减缓速度在很多情况下是不可能的。

You know, it's interesting because when you know there's like I talk about sort of four stages of negotiations and the first is before you even see somebody you're preparing and then you do this thing called information exchange and that's not at all about the transaction that's really about just getting to know people that's about making human connections that's about asking questions it's about telling them your story hearing their story this is where empathy and curiosity sort carry the day and when you do that that sort of absolutely extends until you're an entrepreneur.

你知道，这很有趣，因为当你意识到谈判有四个阶段时，第一个阶段是在你实际见到别人之前做准备，然后你开始进行信息交流，这根本不关乎交易，而是为了更好地了解人们，建立人际关系，问问题，讲述你的故事并听取他们的故事。在这个阶段，同理心和好奇心至关重要，当你做到这一点时，也就意味着你已经是一名企业家了。

I'm asking you to extend your sales cycle because otherwise they could just come in and you can say what's your budget or they say how much does this cost and I tell them I'm I always say don't do that put that off let let that come after there's been this connection because first of all you can understand more about them and they can understand more about how you do business which is valuing your customers wanting to spend time and when that happens sure it's going to take longer but people appreciate the way you've made them feel.

我请求你延长你的销售周期，因为不然顾客们可能只是进来，然后你就会问他们的预算，或者他们问这个东西要多少钱，我会告诉他们不要急着问这些问题，让这些在建立联系之后再问，因为这样你可以更多地了解他们，他们也可以更多地了解你们的业务方式，这样你们就更能重视你们的客户，并花更多的时间和他们交往。当这种交往发生时，可能需要更长时间，但人们会欣赏你让他们感受到的方式。

So again everybody has options right everybody you can choose where you're going to spend your money that's when people are going to remember how you made them feel and they're going to come back to you because of that but you know time and time again I mean not always but a lot of times I can see the wheels turning in their heads and they're sort of you know counting the money you know what if Mory at the end of that conversation and we get to the transaction and they can't afford the services wasn't that a waste of my time and I would say if you think it was a waste of your time then it was a waste of your time because there was something else to have been gained from this and that's I think you have to be again the way we start the conversation I think you have to be intrinsically curious about people and if so then just the act of getting to know somebody is the value add not whether or not they're going to end up doing business with you and I think that actually inherently makes them more likely to do business with you so the it will come it's just coming in a way that's you know giving it time um and giving it space and not making the transaction the sort of the apex of this conversation but really the getting to know each other becomes the most important part.

所以每个人都有选择，对吧？你可以选择在哪里花钱，这是人们会记住你如何使他们感到，并因此回来找你，但是你知道，一个接一个的时间，我可以看到他们大脑中的轮子在转动，他们有点在算钱，你知道如果在交谈的最后，我们到了交易这个问题，他们负担不起这些服务，那这次交流是不是白费时间了。如果你认为这是浪费时间，那它就是浪费时间了。因为这次交流里可能还有其他值得获得的东西，而且我认为，你必须像我们开始对话时所说的那样对人们充满好奇心，如果这样的话，认识别人本身就是增值，不是他们最终是否和你做生意。我认为，这实际上使他们更有可能与你做生意，这种做法会带来收益，只是需要时间和空间，并且不要把交易看作这个谈话的高潮，而是真正认识对方才是最重要的部分。

What are stages three and four you went through one and two? So the next after information exchange is the actual bargaining the the what we most people consider to be the actual negotiations which is the transaction I get that that stage is marked at its beginning by an opening offer or yes somebody that budget so it's it's squarely in the in the form of transactional conversation it's usually about money and then the fourth stage is just making the deal and what that deal entails and what it looks like so it's really sort of a part three and four sort of big hoses but I can teach a whole semester about information exchange.

你经历了第三和第四个阶段是什么？所以在信息交换之后，下一个是实际的讨价还价，大多数人认为这是真正的谈判，也就是交易。我知道这个阶段的开始标志着一个开场报价或者是预算，所以它完全是一个交易性对话，通常围绕着钱展开。然后第四个阶段就是达成协议和协议的内容和形式。所以这实际上是第三和第四个大阶段，但我可以教一整个学期关于信息交流的内容。

Paragraph 1: I feel like that's where the magic happens and yeah I can't change the world but I can certainly change the minds of however many students I have and in some ways I feel like it's my duty in a lot of ways I feel like I've done a good job if I can actually have people value the time spent with one another as opposed to being so focused on an outcome.

我觉得那里就是魔法发生的地方。虽然我不能改变整个世界，但我可以改变我拥有的学生的想法。我觉得这是我的职责之一，如果我能够让人们真正珍视彼此相处的时间，而不是过分关注结果，那我做得很好。

Paragraph 2: You know value the process; the outcome will be there. Focus on the outcome, not value the process, not value the person and did some much more difficult conversation. Then it's just about money; it can only go two ways there's no shades of gray there's no that you don't know them they don't know you people are more likely to make better deals when they like you but you're just taking away all of that you're going right to the heart.

你知道要珍视过程，成果自然会跟着而来。把注意力放在成果上，不要珍视过程，也不要珍视个人，还有那些比较困难的对话。这样对你来说就只是关于钱的问题，只有两种可能，没有灰色地带，你不认识他们，他们也不认识你，人们之间更容易达成更好的交易条件，如果他们喜欢你，但你却把所有这些全部剥夺了，你直接进入核心。 如果需要的话，第二段话可以这样改写：专注于结果，而不是过程，也不是个人，还要进行更为困难的对话。这个情况下，交易仅仅涉及到金钱问题，只有两种可能性，没有任何灰色地带，你和你的对手互相陌生，此时人们更容易达成更优惠的交易，但你却放弃了这一优势，直接进入了交易核心。

Paragraph 3: Of the thing that makes negotiations really hard for people which is then it becomes almost like a win-loss proposition it's information exchange that creates the gradient of opportunities and possibilities. I see because in that stage two you can be setting other things up there could be a whole continuum of deals that work out of this outside of just trying to win this one exactly and it becomes more of sort of the ritual right the things that you value and you actually enjoy as opposed to you know just a transaction which feels really empty.

谈判中最难的事情是使人们感觉像是一个赢输的情况，这是信息交流导致机会和可能性的阶梯。我认为在第二个阶段因为你可以设置其他事情，所以可以有一整个交易的连续体，这不止是为了赢得这一个准确的交易，更像是一种仪式，你看重并且享受这个过程，而不仅仅是一个空洞的交易。

Paragraph 4: Should people be smiling throughout this whole process um not through the whole process I mean if you get to stage three that's when the smiles go away not if stage two goes really well right because you know then again human connectivity is has been there right you don't have to feel I am not that person who believes you know there's a lot of myths and negotiations I feel that that have really undercut the opportunity for people to be excited about this or value it a different way than just a transaction which is far more difficult.

人们在整个过程中是否应该一直微笑呢？我是说，如果你到了第三阶段，那时微笑就不再需要了，但如果第二阶段进展顺利，那也不能一直微笑，因为人与人之间的联系一直存在，你不必感到孤单。我不是那种相信协商中有许多谎言的人，这些谎言实际上削弱了人们对这个过程的兴奋感和价值的认识，使这个过程远比单纯的交易更加困难。

Paragraph 5: But you know one of the myths has come to the table don't smile don't show any emotion you know sort of a robotic like persona and that's against everything I stand for I mean I wrote a book that's called Bring Yourself so if that means you know I speak with my hands I'm quite animated and that will be me in a negotiations because anything short of that means I'm not comfortable in my skin and I'm the pretense of it all we'll suck up all my energy because then I'm sitting there going should I smile should I not have smiled what was I indicating to them with that smile and your brain you're not you're not present you're just constantly sort of evaluating yourself.

但你知道有一个谬误在这里出现了，就是不要笑，不要表达任何情感，你知道有点像机器人一样的形象，而这违背了我坚持的一切。我的意思是，我写了一本书叫做《做自己》，如果这意味着我要用手说话，我很活跃，那在谈判中我也会这样，因为除此之外，我就不会感到自在，而所有这一切的这种伪装会吸取我所有的精力，因为那时候我会坐在那里想我的微笑是不是恰当的，我在用微笑表示什么，而你的大脑也不再存在，你只是不停地评估自己。

Paragraph 6: What for just show up be there in that moment and if that moment means I'm really happy with what you just said then great smile um study show is that actually people smile and show that sort of warmth actually ends up making better deals and so why not now would I jump up and down the minute somebody puts an offer on the table that I'm like wow that's excellent probably not recommended but to smile sure what are you what are you losing it's not a poker game like it it just I don't see it that way wow negotiations are not a poker game yeah you show yourself it's so it's a beautiful experience.

为什么不在那个时刻露面呢？如果那个时刻让我为你刚刚说的话而感到非常开心，那就微笑吧。研究表明，人们微笑并展现出温暖的态度，实际上会达成更好的交易，那为什么不微笑呢？当有人提出一个令我惊叹的报价时，我可能不会跳起来高兴（这样可能并不被推荐），但微笑无可厚非。你失去什么呢？谈判不是扑克游戏，你可以展现自己，这是一次美好的经历。

Paragraph 7: But everything you're saying tells me I should be great at this you are I mean just the way you show up like just I mean I've listened to good number of your interviews just today and you know I was sitting there going if people just negotiated this way then every negotiations would be fun and every negotiations would you know you lead with a curiosity there's warmth there's connectivity and so I think that's why you could sit there and listen you know I sat there I don't know I went through like maybe 10 of them and it all felt like actually like a negotiations because I think teaching in some ways isn't negotiations I think getting your listeners to listen and being engaged isn't negotiations having that conversation with somebody for them to feel like they can open up to you because you've done the research you've learned about them you're interested in them at that moment you know that's all negotiations and I think it's you do a beautiful job of it all.

你说的一切都让我觉得我应该很擅长这个，就像你一样，你的表现方式仅仅靠出现，听了你的很多采访，我在那里想：如果每个人都用这种方式谈判，那么每次谈判都将变得很有趣并且每次都会有收获。你用好奇心来引领，温暖互连，我想这就是你能够静静坐在那里倾听的原因。我也坐在那里听了十次采访，感觉就像是在进行一场谈判，因为我认为，在某些方面，教学就是谈判。让听众聆听并参与其中，与人会话并让他们觉得可以向你打开心扉，因为你已经做了研究，了解了他们，对他们感兴趣。这就是一种谈判，我觉得你做得很好。

Paragraph 8: It took was this conversation for you to believe you're a great negotiate you're gonna be great this weekend I really appreciate it I feel I feel like I just found a side of myself that I either I don't know if I was scared of unveiling or I'm really gonna have to chew on this but in the meantime while I do you mentioned something that also struck a question and that is you you said sometimes you think of teaching as a negotiation how does that apply.

仅仅一次对话就让你相信你是个出色的谈判者，你将会在这个周末做得很棒，我非常感激。我感觉我刚刚发现了自己的一面，我不确定是不是一直害怕揭露它，或者我需要仔细思考一下。而在此期间，你提到了一件也引起了我的疑问的事情，那就是你说有时候你认为教学就像是谈判。这是如何应用的呢？

Paragraph 1: I think of it that way because first of all I have a very different approach to negotiations so a lot of my students come into the class sort of having sort of these images of what a good negotiator is for example sort of aggressive and contentious and in your face and and so I have to change all that right I have to change the perspective on that not to say that if that's who they are they can. they can't be a great negotiator they can it's just to say that there's a there's a whole variety of different types of negotiators and they're all very successful be who you are in that sort of in that spectrum and to to have people listen to that you are in some ways having a negotiations because it's persuasion right.

我这么认为，因为首先我对谈判有非常不同的方法，所以我的很多学生来到课堂时都会带着一些对于一个好的谈判者的固有印象，比如说对立、争论、面对面，因此我需要改变这一切。我必须改变他们的看法，不是说如果这就是他们的本质，他们就不能成为好的谈判者，事实上他们可以，只是说有很多不同类型的谈判者，而且他们都很成功。在某种程度上，我们在让别人听我们的观点时也会进行谈判，因为这是一种说服。

Paragraph 2: I have to show them give them the data I have to give them the success stories I have to allow them to really believe and then you know this happened a lot during the pandemic when we had to go virtual the negotiations was don't be distracted by everything around you stay really focused I know we're not in person I know this feels different but this is going to be a really great experience I promise you just follow these rules right put your phones away stay in the moment really look at the people around you and feel that sense of connection pay attention because you know the there's so much fear and anxiety going on hey this is your break from that right this is that gift that you didn't even know that you wanted but you really needed that's a negotiations because.

我需要向他们展示我所掌握的数据，讲述成功故事，并让他们确信。在疫情期间我们不得不转为线上谈判，我们经常强调要专注于谈判本身，不要被周围的事情分散注意力。我知道和面对面不同，但这会是一次非常棒的经历，保证你们只需按照规则行事——放下手机，专注于当下，注视身边的人，感受联系的感觉。因为现在有太多的恐惧和焦虑，而这是你们难得的休息时间，你们没有预计到却真正需要的礼物，这就是谈判。

Paragraph 3: I have to you know first of all you are on a device right you are using technology that in and of itself sort of has a path of the effect right see computer be stressed see phone be stressed see your let see your iPad and think about work or you know you're usually using it to browse and shop and all the rest you're trying to get them away from all of that and say despite the medium this is intimate despite the medium we can get something really great down here there's magic in this that's the negotiations and did I do it I mean I was I was so surprised by the level of intimacy that we created in those rooms because they felt safe and felt like people needed each other the only problem was that when it comes to my students I have no boundaries and so we would my classes are like three hours or four hours they would be there for five and a half hours I mean so if I were I'd be like don't you all have to eat dinner um my T my TAs would leave I mean it was crazy but I think that happened because we needed that connection so badly and here I was saying to them this doesn't have to be impersonal like this can be really personal this can be really connected and it it worked because I was so committed to having them understand that um so you know it ended up being really special in in a lot of ways.

首先，我要告诉你，你现在在使用一种设备，一种科技。这个科技本身就会产生影响。当你看到电脑、手机、平板电脑等设备时，你会感到压力，也会想到工作，或者你通常使用这些设备来浏览和购物。你想让他们远离这一切，说尽管这是一个媒介，我们可以在这里建立一种真正伟大的联系。在这里有魔力和谈判。我想我做到了。我很惊讶我们在那些房间里创造的亲密程度，因为他们感到安全，觉得彼此需要。唯一的问题是，当涉及到我的学生时，我没有界限，所以我的课通常是三到四个小时，他们会呆上五个半小时。如果是我自己，我会说：“难道你们不用吃晚饭吗？”我的助教们会离开，这有点疯狂，但我觉得我们非常需要这种联系。我告诉他们这不必是不真实的，这可以是真正个人化和联系的。这样做的原因是我非常致力于让他们理解这一点，最终在很多方面它变得非常特别。

Paragraph 4: What's the difference between that experience and going in to give advice to Goldman Sachs so what I do for Goldman Sachs is teach I teach for their foundation in their 10,000 small businesses program largely and what that is is really just a collective of small business owners and entrepreneurs throughout the country that Goldman has committed to training and basically sort of like this many MBA they go through weeks of curriculum I just happened to be sort of the kind of the lead negotiations faculty and so there isn't a difference and what the difference is obviously you're in person or you're on on zoom and I you know I did it with plenty of these Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business entrepreneurs during the pandemic as well uh there's the audience in a lot of ways sort of especially when it comes to negotiations they all have a lot of similarities and whether you're my undergrads of Wharton or whether you're these entrepreneurs or corporate executives that I've worked with the first thing is I asked them to interpret their technology away and anything phones computers all of it so I come in as like the bad guy because I like what is she saying I can't put my phone away so that's the rule that is the hard fast you're in my class you have to put your phone away I don't care if you're the CEO of some Fortune 500 company it doesn't matter.

那体验和去给高盛提供建议有什么区别？我为高盛教授，主要是为他们的基金会在他们的10,000家中小企业计划中教授，实际上这只是全国各地小企业业主和企业家的一个集体，高盛致力于培训，基本上像一个小型的MBA，他们需要通过几周的课程。我恰好是领导谈判教师，所以没有区别。区别在于你是亲自到场还是在Zoom上，我在疫情期间也与很多这些高盛10,000家小企业企业家共同做了这件事。在很多方面，观众都有很多相似之处，特别是当涉及到谈判时。无论你是沃顿大学的本科生，还是我与之合作的这些企业家或企业高管，第一件事就是我要求他们把他们的技术设备放在一旁，包括手机和电脑等所有设备。因此我是一个坏人，因为他们会想，“她在说什么，我不能把手机放在一旁？”这就是硬性规定，当你在我的课堂上时，你必须把你的手机放在一旁，我不在乎你是某个财富500强公司的CEO，这都没关系。

Paragraph 1: And when they do that of course they're really frustrated at the beginning but by the end of the class they understand sort of what this was for because my whole thing is we're distracted so give yourself the opportunity to understand what it feels like to just be mindful and to be where your feet are and the only way that can happen is if you're working on yourself like you legitimately make that important and so that creates a sense of connection not only to one another but to themselves right they're in their own body they are and I tell them I say and this is making you really uncomfortable first of all this may be the most difficult thing I'm asking you to do today but if this is uncomfortable then take note of that too because that means hey we're addicted and so work on that work on work on how important.

当他们这样做时，他们当然会一开始感到非常沮丧，但到课程结束时，他们会理解这是为什么，因为我的整个理念是我们容易分心，所以给自己机会去体会专注的感觉，以及站在自己脚下的感受。唯一的方法是要真正关注自己，把这看作非常重要的事情，这样不仅能够建立彼此之间的联系，也能够更好地与自己建立联系。我会告诉他们，如果这让你非常不舒服，首先，这可能是今天我要求你做的最困难的事情了，但如果这让你不舒服，也要注意到这一点，这意味着我们沉迷了，所以要通过努力来改正和把它变得更重要。

Paragraph 2: it is to be in the moment and and it's it's invaluable and a lot of times at the end of the class the same people that are like oh my god my my undergrads we like you know what it's so nice to to be that present because we don't do it very often they learn more they experience more a lot of my class really asks them to be self-aware and and do a lot of sort of soul searching and how do you do that when your phone is buzzing or you're you're emailing people it doesn't make sense so it works really well it's just you know I have to be okay with people not liking me at the very beginning I'm thinking to myself if you could get people to turn off their cell phones that's what I call being a great negotiator hey that's the first one that's the first negotiation we're negotiating before class starts so as as we wind up are there you you mentioned the the four steps and you want to go over those again quickly and there were there any other pieces of advice that you would want people to know if they were going into a negotiation tomorrow morning this things to think about remember you said a sentence I went something like um was was I was that clear enough for was I clear enough is that a good sentence to have in your pocket well I always think that any kind of feedback you can get is great because we tend to believe as human beings that people were very clear on how we're communicating and you know of course they should understand that that was upsetting me but you have been communicated that you haven't been clear about it whether it's the way you've acted or even your words so there's a pretty big sort of gap between how you think people receiving you and how they're actually receiving you and so I feel like anytime you can stop and and sometimes you know like in class I don't necessarily have to say do your questions because I can sort of read their faces if they all look like they have no idea what I just said hey I need to be clear um but to stop and do that is actually giving you feedback all the way through the conversation because you're sort of trying to better understand your audience and I think that's always good.

要活在当下，这是无价的。很多时候，在课程结束时，同一些学生会感叹：“哇，这么专注于当下真好，因为我们通常不会这样做。这让我们学到更多，体验到更多。”我的许多课程都要求学生自我意识和灵魂寻找，可是当你的手机不停震动或者你一边上课一边发邮件时，怎么做得到呢？因此，关闭手机是很重要的，虽然有些人开始可能会不喜欢我这么做，但我认为这是一个好的谈判策略。这是我们在课前要协商的第一步。最后，你提到了四个步骤，你想再次快速过一下吗？此外，如果有人明天早上要进行谈判，你是否有其他建议？你说过这样一句话：“我说得清楚吗？”这句话可以成为你的口头禅之一，因为任何反馈都是很好的，我们需要知道我们的沟通是否清晰，即使我们已经认为我们说得很明白。以这种方式为沟通设置反馈，不断地了解你的听众，这是一个好的方式。

Paragraph 3: The other sort of the other pieces of advice so we sort of ran through those stages I would say sort of in preparation which was at the first stage most people understand that preparation is really important and it's not just in negotiations just about anything you do and so I would just say this I would say that one of the biggest parts of preparation is to spend that time better understanding yourself giving yourself the opportunity to know what your non-negotiables are or who you are as a person how you want to how you want them to remember you you know how what are the rules of engagement from the way you are going to approach this right and and so I think that removes the the the chance that you're going to regret how you behaved because you've sort of grounded yourself in those principles um the other is that you know this has sort of become almost cliche but the whole knowing your value I think is super crucial because if you don't if you're not your own best self advocate right if you're not your own best friend then how on earth will you ever get what you want from a negotiations.

另外一种建议是，在准备阶段我们通过了这些阶段，我会说，在第一个阶段，大多数人都了解准备工作非常重要，不仅仅是在谈判中，而是在你所做的任何事情中。所以我想说的是，准备工作最重要的一部分是花时间更好地了解自己，给自己机会了解你的不可谈判的事项或者你作为一个人的身份，你想如何让他们记住你，你知道自己的参与规则，以及你将如何处理这个问题。所以我认为这样就可以消除你会因自己的行为而后悔的机会，因为你已经用这些原则确立自己。另外一个建议，虽然这已经成为陈词滥调，但了解自己的价值我认为至关重要，因为如果你不是自己最好的倡导者，如果你不是自己最好的朋友，那你如何从谈判中得到你想要的呢？

Paragraph 1: because what that does is it minimizes who you are in this conversation what it does is it limits the possibilities for you what it does um says you know you don't deserve this right or you don't deserve as much of this and that comes from how we speak to ourselves right so I think in preparation it's really really important to ground yourself first take a look at that mirror tell yourself all the things that you value about yourself so that that becomes the impetus for your ask right and so you know we talked about with the pleasers and how much value put on the other person again this isn't at their exclusion this is just taking care of yourself first and giving yourself permission for that so preparations or those things are really important and then sort of in information sharing and you know I'll just repeat what we said and I think I was going to agree on this is just be curious right.

因为这样做会将你在这次对话中的价值降到最低，它限制了你可能的选择。这种想法在我们对自己的话语中产生，即你不应该拥有这个权利或者你不该得到那些东西。因此，在准备中，最重要的是先让自己稳定下来，看一看镜子告诉自己自己身上有哪些值得珍视的品质，这将成为你提出要求的动力。我们之前提到过，对于那些过于迁就别人的人，过度注重别人的价值观。这并不意味着要忽略别人，而是要照顾好自己，并给自己许可来这么做。因此准备是非常重要的一步，信息共享也很重要，像我们之前说过的，保持好奇心就可以了。

Paragraph 2: be committed to curiosity no matter how much you've prepared understand that you will never know everything so in this moment you're just learning more and to be open to that and to be curious and ask questions you know I will say it's important as important to be interested as it is to be interesting right so give yourself that pay attention to them and also teach them right those things can happen at the same time and then you know the third stage actually becomes so easy you know you you're still in a moment you're still paying attention but you've done the hard work of connecting don't all of a sudden you know this can't be Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde like you're not now a different persona everything now should just flow from those principles I think that's why I love negotiations I love people I love learning that people and so this sort of fulfills that part of me but I wish everybody would see it that way because it's a necessary part of our life it's a crucial part of our everyday and nobody should ever be worried

不管你准备得如何，都要致力于好奇心。要理解你永远不可能知道所有事情，所以在这个时刻你只是在学习更多，要保持好奇心并提出问题。我认为，兴趣与有趣同样重要，所以你需要关注别人并教他们，这两者可以同时进行。当你成功建立联系时，第三个阶段就会变得轻松起来。你仍然留在当下，仍然保持关注，但你已经完成了连接的艰苦工作，不会像变了一个不同的形象一样。我喜欢谈判，喜欢人，喜欢了解人。这些都满足了我的需求，但我希望每个人都能像我一样看到它的重要性，因为这是生活不可或缺的一部分，是我们日常中至关重要的一部分，不应该让任何人感到担忧。

Paragraph 3: and then that stage four it sounds like that's the clothes and the handshake and making things work forward yeah so it's the clothes it could be a deal or no deal right because that's that's an outcome as well but I always say you know if at the end of that sort of transactional phase you actually come to a resolution you come to an agreement that's the whole like getting to yes right but the interesting thing is that when this has been a really good experience mutually right then there's been not yelling screaming and this hasn't been like when it all caused that but a thing scorched earth but you've actually enjoyed this process then if you come to a resolution now you're leaving the opportunity for sort of getting past yes and by that I mean maybe you can sort of sit back after a few days and think you know well maybe we should add these other things to this deal because it can even be a richer deal for both of us or or what we just experienced the economy just went to hell so you know I know I'm going to have to increase my prices now because you know everything is more expensive is there a way that we can look at this where it's not going to hurt you I can stay in business and this could be even even for a moment in time but these are some of my needs so now you can do that without trepidation because you're partners

然后第四阶段听起来就是衣服、握手和推动事情向前发展之类的，对吧，所以这是有可能达成协议或决裂的，因为这也是一个结果，但是我总是说，你知道，在交易阶段结束时，如果你真的能够达成解决方案，达成协议，那就是“达成共识”的真谛。但有趣的是，当这是一次彼此都非常满意的经历时，就没有互相吼叫暴躁之类的事情发生了，这不会像烧毁的土地一样，而实际上你享受了这个过程，所以如果你现在达成一个协议，你会留下超越“达成共识”的机会，我的意思是，也许你可以坐下来思考一下，过几天后，你知道，也许我们应该在这个交易中加入其他东西，因为这样甚至可以为我们双方带来更丰富的交易，或者是因为我们刚刚经历了经济的崩溃，所以我知道我现在不得不提高我的价格，因为你知道一切都更加昂贵了，有没有什么方法，我们可以看待这件事情，这不会伤害你，我可以继续做生意，这甚至可能只是暂时的，但这是我的一些需要，所以现在你可以毫无畏惧地去做了，因为你是合作伙伴。

Paragraph 4: and so I think that this whole notion of what that experience is then that last and final stage can be sort of something that goes on in perpetuity because of how much you've enjoyed the journey and not just the outcome I love it I'm a new man thank you so much I feel like it just got it to plow them up from Wharton I'm happy you feel better about it you know it's it's hard to negotiate Cal with with friends and family members because there's a most genality involved in that so not to sort of not honoring that in your sort of trepidation or your your some anxiety with it but you know you do the same thing with people that you know which is be curious and well that's hard open

所以我认为，这个经历的最后和最终阶段的概念可能会永无止境，因为你享受这个旅程和结果一样重要，我很喜欢它，我感觉自己像是从沃顿学院里面打破壳出来一样，非常感谢你们，让我感觉更好了。你知道，和朋友和家人谈判是很难的，因为会牵涉到一些误解，所以我们要尊重他们的想法和你自己的忐忑或焦虑感，但是你也可以用好奇心去探索他们的想法，这样也很难啊。

Paragraph 1: Thank you for joining me today for episode three with Cal Fussman who's going to give us some lessons on the art of the interview Cal is a good friend of mine and also the recipient of the Malcolm Forbes Lifetime Achievement Award for storytelling and his approach to interviewing combined highly polished anecdotes with deep challenges to get his subjects to reveal themselves in profound ways

谢谢大家今天的收听，我们要进行第三集采访艺术课，我们的嘉宾是Cal Fussman。 Cal是我的好朋友，他曾获得Malcolm Forbes终身成就奖，并结合高度精湛的轶事和深层次挑战的方式，让他的受访者以深刻的方式展现自己。

Paragraph 2: Cal has interviewed people like Muhammad Ali, President Clinton, and Jeff Bezos so I was very fortunate to have him on the show and I'm also grateful because he's actually agreed to make this a two-part series so we're going to learn a lot today here's part one of my interview with Cal Fussman

卡尔曾采访过像穆罕默德•阿里、克林顿总统和杰夫•贝佐斯这样的人，我很幸运能够将他邀请到节目中。我也很感激他同意将采访拆分成两部分，所以我们今天将会学到很多。现在是我对卡尔•法斯曼采访的第一部分。

Paragraph 3: Cal's going to give us some lessons on the art of the interview we'll also talk about some of the famous people that he's interviewed but more importantly how he's able to get people to feel comfortable enough with him to reveal things they might not have shown before and how you can apply that to the world in whatever you do

Cal将教我们如何进行采访，并且我们还会谈论他采访过的一些知名人士，但更重要的是他是如何让采访对象感到足够舒适，以揭示他们以前可能没有表现出来的事情，以及你如何将这种技巧应用于你所从事的世界。

Paragraph 4: when I was preparing for this I had a list of lessons that I wanted to go through but I think the most important one is how to deal with emotions and how to deal with emotions during an interview or during a conversation

在我为此做准备时，我有一个想要经历的课程清单，但我认为最重要的是学会如何处理情绪，在面试或会话中如何处理情绪。

Paragraph 5: I think that's the best lesson that I take from these 45 minutes or so to if I am feeling emotions to replace that with curiosity and to just hang on to my value and just drive my curiosity to a point where it can receive the value that you just ask me to look into the mirror and define right you can understand people you don't have to say I agree but you go a long way when you tell somebody that I purge and I understand you're not saying yes this is the deal you're just saying I get it I see your perspective we forget that to do that because we feel like saying that means you're an agreement it's not and the other part of it is if it does get emotional which it might then just take a little break take a take a step away breathe breathe I mean the magic of breathing people think that's what's them what do you what do I have to do with things get out of hand step away right just find yourself again and take a breath breathing helps that's all it's quite simple well thank you for making it simple much appreciate it very grateful and I hope that I will see you down the track somewhere because you brought something out of me today that needed to come out I'm so happy and I'm so grateful for the opportunity I am I am truly a fan so I'm going to keep listening to those podcasts because I learned a lot but thank you Cal I appreciate your time all right thank you and we'll see you down the tracks thank you about wraps it up want to give a shout out to Tim Ferris for nudging me to start this podcast it's the way that I connect with you and you with me this is a good moment to connect with you about where the podcast is going as you know much of the time during the pandemic was spent talking about healthcare and how to make it better I have veered toward getting coaching lessons on various topics for a while but it doesn't mean I've forgotten the subject the healthcare I just need a step away and get a clear head on how best to attack the problem I've learned a great deal about healthcare in the last three years and as Arnold Schwarzenegger famously said I'll be back it did a little better than me and I'll continue to incorporate wellness topics in this podcast but for now I'm thinking the healthiest thing I can do is to connect hope more as advice helped connect you with your next negotiation make it a win win cheers

我认为从这45分钟中得到的最好的教训是，如果我感受到情绪，就用好奇心来替代它，坚持我的价值观，并推动我的好奇心到一个可以接受你所要求的价值的程度。你刚才让我看着镜子给自己定义价值观，这样就能理解别人了。你不必表示我同意，但当你告诉某个人“我理解你”的时候，你会走得更远。我们忘了这一点，因为我们认为这意味着你赞同。如果它变得情绪化，就稍微休息一下，离开一下，呼吸一下，呼吸可以帮助这一切，很简单。非常感谢您使它变得简单，我非常感激这个机会，我真的很喜欢你的节目，因为我学到了很多东西。谢谢你，Cal。我们会在未来的某个时候见面的。谢谢你。对于Tim Ferris激励我开始这个播客，我想表示感谢。这是我与你交流的方式，也是你与我交流的方式。现在是个好时机，我想和你谈谈播客的方向。如你所知，在大流行期间，很多时间都是花在讨论医疗保健以及如何改进医疗保健上的。但我已经转向了一段时间的教练课程和其他各种话题，但这并不意味着我忘记了医疗保健这个主题。我只是需要离开一下，清醒一下思路，找到最佳解决问题的方法。在过去的三年里，我学到了很多有关医疗保健的知识。正如阿诺德•施瓦辛格所说：“我会回来的”，我也会回来的。我将继续在这个播客中涉及健康话题，但现在，我认为我能做的最健康的事情就是与你建立联系，帮助你的下一次谈判获得双赢的结果。干杯！