Elon Musk exposes why Democrats don’t want ‘waste and fraud’ to be turned off

All right, welcome to the show in a special interview with Mr. Elon Musk, who of course is famed Trump advisor, CEO Tesla, SpaceX, chair of X-corpilon. Thank you for doing this. We appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Among, I want to begin with, among other things, everyone's attacking you for your position. What are you doing in the government? There was a cyber attack on X today, which shut it down and may have been far and sourced. It's a big story. You want to give us a moment on that? Well, we don't, we're not sure exactly what happened, but there was a massive cyber attack to try to bring down the X system with IP addresses originating in the Ukraine area.

好的，欢迎收看我们的节目。今天我们特别采访到了埃隆·马斯克先生，他是名声显赫的特朗普顾问，特斯拉和SpaceX的首席执行官，也是X公司董事会主席。非常感谢您接受我们的采访。谢谢邀请我参加。我想从这件事开始，很多人攻击您的立场。您在政府中有什么角色？今天X公司遭遇了网络攻击，导致系统瘫痪，并且可能是外部黑客所为。这是个大新闻，您能简单谈谈吗？ 嗯，我们还不完全清楚具体发生了什么，但确实有大规模的网络攻击试图摧毁X系统，IP地址来自乌克兰地区。

Oh, well, so that's your suspicion. Is the website, is the internet up? Is it up yet? It's up yet. It's up yet. Okay, good. But I just was looking back. Let me get see if I get this right. They're setting fire to various Tesla charging stations near Boston. Shots were fired at a Tesla dealership in Oregon. Various non-violence. Shots fired. Not a metaphor. Shots fired, yes. Downtown New York marching against the Tesla showroom. Your stock is way down. You've been criticized, left and right. But look on the right side. I mean, why are you doing this? Always look on the bright side of life. Yes. I'm an artist. But besides that, I mean, how's your day?

哦，好吧，所以这就是你的怀疑。网站和网络正常运行了吗？已经可以用了，好吧，很好。但我刚刚回过头看看，想确认一下。有人在波士顿附近放火烧特斯拉充电站。在俄勒冈的特斯拉经销店发生了枪击事件。各种非暴力事件中，真的发生了枪击。这不是比喻，确实发生了枪击事件。纽约市中心有针对特斯拉展厅的游行。你的股票大跌了，你遭到了各方面的批评。但是看看积极的一面。我是说，为什么你要这么做？永远要看到生活的光明面。是的，我是一位艺术家。除此之外，今天过得怎么样？

Well, motivates you to do this. Well, it's the offer good. It's tough sledding. Yeah, it is tough sledding. But I think we're doing the right thing here. The, you know, there's been a tremendous amount of waste and fraud in the government. You know, when you're part of the government, you saw a lot of that. And it's, and there's been, you know, if you look at the inspector general reports and the government accountability office, there have been many audits that have pointed out that there's a tremendous amount of waste and fraud in the government.

好的，是是什么激励你去做这件事的呢？是因为这项提议很好吗？确实是很艰难的工作。是的，确实很艰难。但我认为我们正在做正确的事情。你知道，政府中存在大量的浪费和欺诈。当你是政府的一员时，你会看到很多这样的情况。而且，如果你查看督察长报告和政府问责办公室发布的报告，有许多审计指出政府中存在大量的浪费和欺诈。

In fact, there was a report issued by the GAO, the government accountability office last year. So during the Biden administration, which estimated the federal government fraud to be half a trillion dollars. So just because that's not a Trump administration thing, it's a Biden administration thing. So what we're trying to do is get that number down to a much smaller figure, save money for the American taxpayer, stop money being spent on things that are, that I think very few taxpayers would agree makes sense. You know, transgender animal surgeries or, why are we spending, why are American tax dollars being spent on this?

事实上，在拜登政府期间，美国政府问责局（GAO）去年发布了一份报告，估计联邦政府的欺诈金额达到了五千亿美元。因此，这并不是特朗普政府的问题，而是拜登政府的问题。所以，我们正在努力将这个数字降低到一个更小的水平，为美国纳税人省钱，避免资金被浪费在很少有纳税人认为合理的事情上。比如说，变性动物手术，为什么美国的税款要用于这些方面呢？

And the president's gone through a long list of absurd things. Why are there 20 million people who are definitely dead, marked as alive in the social security database? Why were hundreds, hundreds of millions of dollars of small business administration loans were given out to people aged 11 and under, according to the social security? I mean, like these must be some very enterprising eight-year-olds, you know. That's a pretty strong 150-year-olds. Yes, exactly. As the president said, you know, we have an enormous number of people marked as alive who are 160. He didn't know the country was that healthy.

总统列举了一长串荒谬的事情。为什么在社会保障数据库中，有两千万已经去世的人被标记为活着的？为什么根据社会保障的数据，有数以亿计的小企业管理局贷款发放给11岁及以下的人？我想，这些八岁的孩子一定是非常有生意头脑的。没错，这可是相当强壮的150岁老人。正如总统所说，我们有大量160岁还标记为活着的人，他都不知道这个国家居然这么健康。

Yes. You know. So demystify this. How do you do it? Okay. How big is your team? Yeah. Where'd you recruit most of them from? And what is it that makes you choose, you know, the Treasury or Social Security or USAID? Has it worked? Let the public know, please. Right. Well, we just basically follow the money. You know, we look at the president's executive orders and we also just follow the money. So we started looking closely at USCID because they were completely violating the president's executive orders to suspend foreign aid.

好的。你知道。所以，让我们来解开这个谜团。你是怎么做到的？好的。你的团队有多大？你大部分人员是从哪里招募的？是什么让你选择财政部、社会保障局或美国国际发展署呢？这个工作有效吗？请让公众知道。对。其实，我们基本上就是跟踪资金流向。我们查看总统的行政命令，也跟着钱走。因此，我们开始密切关注美国国际发展署，因为他们完全违反了总统暂停对外援助的行政命令。

You know, what's called foreign aid, but in our view is a lot of corruption. So what we saw there is just a trans-mountain money being sent to non-governmental organizations. But actually, it's a. This, by the way, is I think one of the biggest sources of fraud in the world is government-funded non-governmental organizations. This is a gigantic fraud loophole where the government can give money to an NGO and then that there are no controls over that NGO. So they've given billions dollars in debt.

你知道，所谓的外援在我们看来有很多腐败。所以我们看到的其实是跨国资金被发送给非政府组织。但是实际上，这变成了一个巨大的问题。顺便说一句，我认为这可能是全世界最大的欺诈来源之一，那就是政府资助的非政府组织。这是一个巨大的欺诈漏洞，政府可以把钱给一个NGO，但对这个NGO没有任何控制措施。因此，他们欠下了数十亿美元的债务。

We estimate tens of billions of dollars to NGOs that are essentially scams. And. My way, I'm trying to put a stop to that. Yeah. So. I do want to interrupt. Secretary of State Rubio just come out and I think he tweeted today. He has accepted over 80% of your recommendations to shut down in USAID. Right. So your review and analysis was spot on. Yes. So I think. When people criticize, say, what Doge is doing, we say, well, which part specifically? Because we put all of the actions of the Doge team on the Doge.gov website and on the Doge handle on X.

我们估计有数百亿美元流向了实际上是骗局的非政府组织。而我正在努力制止这种情况。今天，国务卿鲁比奥刚刚表示，他在推特上发文称，已经接受了你提出的超过80%的建议以关闭美国国际开发署（USAID）。这证明你的审查和分析是非常准确的。所以，当有人批评Dogecoin的行动时，我们会问，到底是哪一部分有问题？因为我们将Dogecoin团队的所有行动都放在了Doge.gov网站和Doge在X平台上的账号上。

So we post the receipts. So it's like, this action has been taken, this action has been taken. So when we get criticism, we say, like, of what? Which line do you disagree with? Like, which cut saving do you disagree with? And then people usually can't think of any. No. It's transparent line by line. It's transparent line by line, which is quite remarkable. Right.

所以我们把收据公布出来。这就像是在说，这些措施已经采取了，这些措施已经采取了。所以当我们受到批评时，我们会问，具体是哪一项有意见？你不认同的是哪一项节省开支的措施？通常，人们想不出任何反对的理由。因为每一项都透明化了。每一项都是透明的，这点很了不起。对吧。

And so. And then with respect to the Treasury, for example, the two main recommendations we suggested, which have not been implemented, was that any payments going out of the Treasury, especially the Treasury's main payment computer, which is called PAM, things like payments account manager or something like that. But it's like almost 5 trillion a year. So about a billion an hour that the payments be coded with the congressional appropriation and that there be an explanation for the payment. Very basic stuff.

对此，我们提出了两个主要建议，但尚未被实施。首先，关于财政部方面的建议，尤其是针对其主要支付系统，称为PAM（支付账户管理器或类似名字的系统）。这个系统每年处理大约5万亿美元的支付，相当于每小时约10亿美元。我们的建议是，任何通过财政部系统发出的支付，应当附有国会拨款的编码，并需解释支付的用途。这些都是非常基本的要求。

And just doing that, we estimate we'll save $100 billion a year. You're not really. Let me see if I get this right. Particularly with Social Security. You're not really changing policy. You're auditing the fiscal mechanisms to make sure that, you know, from point A gets to point B and that's where it's supposed to get to. In some cases, it doesn't get there. Or in some cases, it may go over there. But that's. It's not a policy exercise. You're not changing laws. You're just doing what any business would do in a profit and loss audit.

通过这样做，我们估计每年将节省1000亿美元。你其实没在进行政策变更。让我确认我理解正确，尤其是在社会保障方面。你并没有改变政策，而是对财政机制进行审核，以确保资金从A点到达B点，并且确实到达该去的地方。在某些情况下，资金可能不会到达。在其他情况下，可能会流向别处。但这不是政策改革。你没有在改变法律，只是像企业在利润和损失审核中做的那样。

I think what we're adding here is caring and competence. And there's a massive amount of fraud of basically people submitting Social Security numbers for Social Security benefits, unemployment, small business administration loans, and medical. Those are fake Social Security numbers. Or they're sold in somebody else's Social Security number. And we're trying to put a stop to all of that. And that's the number which is estimated to be on the order of 10% of federal expenditures, which is half a trillion dollars. A huge number.

我认为我们在这里添加的是关怀和能力。目前有大量的欺诈行为，主要涉及人们提交虚假的社会安全号码以获取社会保障福利、失业救济、小企业管理局贷款和医疗服务。这些号码要么是假的，要么是用他人的社会安全号码进行交易。我们正在努力制止这一切。据估计，这类欺诈行为占联邦开支的大约10%，也就是大约五千亿美元，这是一个巨大的数字。

Yeah. You're working with the agency heads. You're working with the cabinet secretaries. Yes. I saw Howard Lutnik was on TV yesterday saying, you were partnering with them. Is that fair? Yeah. What we do is in consultation with the cabinet secretaries and with their departments. So we're really trying to sort of refer to ourselves as tech support. You know, we're really helping the department get a handle on things.

好的。你正在与机构主管和内阁秘书合作。是的。我看到霍华德·卢特尼克昨天上电视，说你们在与他们合作。这说法准确吗？是的。我们所做的是与内阁秘书及他们的部门协商合作。所以我们算是充当技术支持的角色，真正帮助部门掌握情况。

Because what actually happens here is you've got this sort of vast federal bureaucracy. And then you've got a very thin layer on top of the politically appointed officials. And what does happen is that the bureaucracy, frankly, is in control. And they largely ignore the politically appointed people. Well, I should do bureaucracy. I'm sure you must have seen that. I mean, I've lived with this twice. I worked for Reagan many years ago, and I worked for Trump in the first term. It's like a permanent bureaucracy. I might add it's a permanently liberal bureaucracy.

因为实际情况是，这里有一个庞大的联邦官僚机构。在它的上面是由政治任命的官员组成的一层薄薄的管理层。实际上，官僚机构才是握有实权的一方，他们大多无视这些政治任命的人。我应该了解一下官僚机构，我相信你一定见过类似情况。我经历过两次这样的情况，我曾在许多年前为里根工作过，也在特朗普的第一个任期内工作过。这就像一个永久性的官僚机构，而且我想补充说明，这还是一个永久性的自由派官僚机构。

Yes, very much so. And it's not a bureaucracy that necessarily enforces or implements presidential policy. They don't. In fact, they try their best to thwart presidential policy. So the president is the elected representative of the people. If the president cannot get things implemented as a reflection of the world of the people, then what we have is not a democracy. We have a bureaucracy. We have rule of the bureau, not rule of the people.

是的，非常如此。而且这并不是一个必然执行或实施总统政策的官僚机构。他们并不这样做。事实上，他们尽力阻挠总统的政策。所以，总统一直是人民选出的代表。如果总统不能让反映人民意愿的事情得到落实，那么我们的体制就不是民主，而是官僚体制。我们受到的是官僚的统治，而不是人民的统治。

And that's what we're trying to defeat here is the bureaucracy and have ruled the people. As you mentioned, the bureaucracy is overwhelmingly a Democrat. So Washington, D.C. was 92.5%. I believe a vote for Kamala. So this overwhelmingly a deep blue situation.

我们想要打败的是官僚体制，以及他们对人民的统治。正如你提到的，官僚体制主要由民主党人组成。例如，华盛顿特区有92.5%的人投票支持卡玛拉·哈里斯。这是一个非常深蓝的局面。

How do you pick your next targeted agency or department? Well, we're trying to act broadly across all departments. So it's not just one department at a time. But are you in all of them now? All of them? Pretty much, yeah. Yes, so. We're trying to make the government more efficient across the board. So, yeah.

你们如何选择下一个目标部门或机构呢？我们试图在所有部门展开行动，而不是一次只针对一个部门。那么你们现在是否已经进入了所有部门？基本上可以这么说。是的，我们努力在各个方面提高政府的效率。

How big is your team? We're a little over 100 at this point. 100. Get to 200. You're going to get to 200. Yeah. Okay. And you're recruiting from where? More or less. Basically, it's software people, information security software people, and finance. Yeah, it's basically finance and technology.

你的团队有多大？我们现在有一点超过100人。100人。要增长到200人。你们会增长到200人。嗯，好吧。那你们从哪里招聘？差不多，就是软件人员、信息安全软件人员和金融方面的人才。对，主要是金融和技术领域的。

And frankly, I can't believe I'm here doing this. It's kind of bizarre. But I kind of think that the. We've got this enormous federal budget deficit. And it's a true trillion dollar deficit. It keeps growing. Our interest payments are higher than our defense department budget. That's, I think, was the real wake-up call for me.

坦率地说，我真的不敢相信我在这里做这件事。这有点奇怪。但我觉得我们有一个巨大的联邦预算赤字。这是真正的万亿赤字，并且在不断增长。我们的利息支付已经超过了国防部的预算。我想，这才是真正让我警醒的原因。

Was looking at seeing that the interest payments, the national debt, exceeded the defense department budget. And that was only growing over time, which meant, if we didn't do something about this, then there won't be any money for anything. We'll just be servicing debt. And you know how to read an income statement. And you know how to read a balance sheet. You've had some business experience, I'm kidding, but you know about this stuff. Yeah, I mean, really, I just don't want America to go bankrupt. So it's a call to action. You're hearing a call to action? Yeah. You're giving up your other stuff? I mean, how are you running your other businesses? With great difficulty. Yeah, I mean. But there's no turning back, you're saying. I'm just here trying to make government more efficient, eliminate waste and fraud. And so far, we're making good progress, actually. So our savings at this point exceed $4 billion a day. So it's very significant.

在查看时发现，国家债务的利息支付已经超过了国防部的预算。而且这种情况只会随着时间增长，这意味着如果我们不采取措施，就可能没有其他资金可用了，我们只会在偿还债务。你知道如何阅读损益表和资产负债表吧。你有一些商业经验，我只是开玩笑，但你确实了解这些事情。我只是希望美国不要破产。所以这是一种号召行动的呼唤。你听到这种呼唤了吗？对，你放弃其他事情了吗？你是怎么管理其他业务的？非常困难。是的。但是你说没有回头路。我只是在这里努力让政府更有效率，消除浪费和欺诈。到目前为止，我们实际上取得了不错的进展。我们的每天节省已经超过40亿美元，这非常可观。

You think you wind up getting to a trillion dollars? Yeah, savings. I mean, unless we're stopped, we will get to a trillion dollars of savings. And that stuff can be translated. I mean, we've been talking, we had Russell vote, the OMB Director, I'm earlier, through very precision authority, impoundment authority. But I believe you said earlier, it's an audit that will not gather dust on shelves. This is actually going to wind up with real savings, then the base is bending baseline down. Yeah. Yeah. There have been many good audits, like I said, done by inspector generals and by government accountability office. And they just haven't been implemented, nothing's been done. But I think the GAO identified that there were 17 million dead people in the Social Security database several years ago. It's now 20 million. But nobody did anything about it.

你认为你们能达到一万亿美元的节省吗？是的，节省。我的意思是，除非我们被阻止，否则我们会节省一万亿美元。而这些都可以转化。我是说，我们一直在讨论，我们有与OMB（美国行政管理和预算局）主任拉塞尔·沃特对话，他之前通过非常准确的权力，即扣押权，但我相信你之前提到，这次审计不会被搁置在书架上。这次审计实际上会带来真正的节省，然后基础线也会降低。是的，确实。就像我之前说过的，很多好的审计是由监察长和政府问责办公室完成的，但都没有得到实施，什么都没做。不过我记得GAO（政府问责办公室）几年前发现了社保数据库里有1700万死者，现在变成了2000万。但是没有人对此采取行动。

And I mean, I think you can sort of look at this as a complaint minimization optimization. So basically, if the government sends money out to whether it's wasteful or fraudulent, nobody complains if they receive money. But they do complain if they don't receive money. And the people that complain the loudest are the ones receiving the fraudulent money. And you're on it. Yeah. I mean, just to say the goal here is let's not have America go bankrupt with waste and fraud. So that's what I'm here for. And we're making good progress. Yes, you are. You're going to go another year? Yeah, I think so. Final report, middle of next year? Well, we're just getting things done as opposed to writing a report. Like say, reports don't mean anything. You just you got to actually take action.

我觉得可以把这看作是一个减少抱怨的优化过程。基本上，如果政府给人发钱，不管是浪费的还是欺诈性的，只要收到钱的人都不会抱怨。但如果他们没收到钱，抱怨就会出现。而且抱怨最厉害的通常是那些收到欺诈性钱款的人。是的，我的意思是，目标就是防止美国因为浪费和欺诈而破产。这就是我在做的事情，而且我们正在取得不错的进展。是的，你会再做一年吗？我想会是这样。最终报告会在明年年中吗？我们更在意实际行动，而不是写报告。报告没有实际意义，关键是要付诸行动。

So the, I mean, the way it's important in entitlements spending, which is most of the federal spending is entitlements. So that's like the big one to eliminate. You know, that's the sort of half trillion, maybe six, seven hundred billion a year. That is also a mechanism by which the Democrats attract and retain illegal immigrants by essentially paying them to come here and then turning them into voters. Yes. So this is why the Democrats are so upset about the situation because they're losing, you know, if we turn off this gigantic money magnet for illegal immigrants, then they will leave. They will lose voters. If you have President Sport, he said so again, yesterday, he completely supports your operation. Yeah. Well, thanks. Without the President's support, we couldn't make any progress here.

这段话讨论了联邦支出中用于福利项目的部分，该部分占了大部分的联邦支出。文中提到，这是一项巨大且有可能消减的支出，每年可能达到5000亿到6000-7000亿美元。此外，这也被视为民主党吸引和留住非法移民的一种手段，通过基本上让他们来到美国并最终将他们转化为选民。由于如果这个庞大的资金吸引力不复存在，非法移民可能会离开，美国的选民数量可能会减少，因此这也是为什么民主党人对这种情况感到不满的原因。如果谈到总统，他再次表示完全支持你的行动。感谢总统的支持，否则，我们在此事上很难取得进展。

Yeah, I mean, where you'll see the biggest outcry is from the Democrats who are, they don't want the way some court to be turned off because it is a gigantic magnet to attract illegal immigrants and have them stay in the country. I mean, you see some of the crazy stuff like where money from FEMA, you know, which FEMA is an agency that's meant to take care of Americans and distress. And a bunch of their money was being sent to pay for luxury hotels in New York for illegal immigrants. And that was happening even after the President was elected, even after he signed executive order saying that needs to stop. So we actually made sure that that money did stop going because it's obviously it's outrageous that American taxpayer money is spent on luxury hotels for legal. But you have to say, like, why was that being done? It was because the Democrats are trying to import voters, basically.

是的，我的意思是，最大的反对声音会来自民主党人，因为他们不希望某些法院的措施被关闭。这些措施对吸引非法移民并让他们留在该国起到了巨大的作用。比如，有些疯狂的事情，比如来自FEMA（一个负责救助美国民众的机构）的资金被用于支付纽约豪华酒店，以安置非法移民。即使是在总统当选后，甚至在他签署行政命令要求停止这种做法之后，这种情况仍然存在。所以我们确实确保这些资金停止被用于这样的用途，因为显然用美国纳税人的钱为非法移民支付豪华酒店费用是不可思议的。但你必须问问，为什么会这样做？因为民主党人基本上是想通过这种方式引入选民。

I agree. Yeah. And that's also why there's no voter ID in needed, in fact, in California and in New York State, you're not allowed to show voter ID. That's the crazy. Isn't this even saying? Insane. Yeah. I'd say that as a New Yorker. It's insane. Insane. And it violates the entire Constitution and the principles behind it. Yes. Producers the element to get out. I don't want to end this interview because it's too much fun.

我同意。是的。这也是为什么在加利福尼亚州和纽约州不需要选民身份证，事实上，在这些州你甚至不能出示选民身份证。这真是太疯狂了。这说得通吗？简直疯狂。是的，作为一个纽约人，我会说这太离谱了。而且这违反了宪法以及其背后的原则。是的。编剧们需要注意到这一点。我不想结束这次访谈，因为实在太有趣了。

Yeah. Can I just ask you one thing? 20 seconds. Nothing to do with, nothing to do with Doge. Can you rescue the astronauts? Yes. We're bringing them back in a few weeks. There's not near enough attention being paid to this. You're going to get them back. We're going to get them back. God bless. Thank you. Thank you for all your service, Elon Musk. We appreciate it. We appreciate it. Take care.

好的，我能问你一件事吗？只需20秒。与狗狗币无关。你能拯救那些宇航员吗？是的，我们将在几周后把他们带回来。对于这件事，大家的关注不够。你会把他们带回来的。我们会带他们回来的。上帝保佑。谢谢你，谢谢你所做的一切，埃隆·马斯克。我们很感激你。保重。