Dr. Bernardo Huberman: How to Use Curiosity & Focus to Create a Joyful & Meaningful Life
发布时间 2024-12-16 13:01:07 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Bernardo Huberman. Dr. Bernardo Huberman is the Vice President of NextGen Systems at Cable Labs. Prior to that, he was the Director of the Social Computing Laboratory at Hewlett Packard, and he is, as his name suggests, my father. Today, we discuss various topics in science, including relativity theory, chaos theory, and quantum computing. But I'd like to assure you that even if you have zero background in physics, computer science, or mathematics, that entire discussion will be clear to you as to what those things are and even some of how they work.
欢迎收听Huberman实验室播客，在这里我们探讨科学以及适用于日常生活的科学工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Dr. Bernardo Huberman。他是Cable Labs的下一代系统副总裁。在此之前，他曾是惠普公司社会计算实验室的主任，而且正如他的名字所暗示的，他是我的父亲。今天，我们讨论科学领域的多个话题，包括相对论、混沌理论和量子计算。但我要向大家保证，即使你对物理、计算机科学或数学一无所知，我们的讨论也会让你清楚了解这些概念是什么以及它们如何运作的一些基本原理。
During today's discussion, we also talk about a life of science, that is what it is to spend one's life in curiosity, in trying to understand the universe around us, and how to understand ourselves. Indeed, today, we also talk about neuroscience, how the brain works, and the different sorts of questions that I do believe everybody asks, whether you're a scientist or not. Questions like, where do we come from? Is there a God? What is our use or purpose in the universe? And how is it that we can ponder these super high-level abstract questions about how we got here and what our purpose is, and how things work at the quantum level, tiny, tiny bits of things that we can't even see, and at the same time, to lead an everyday life that is meaningful and joyful.
在今天的讨论中，我们也谈到了科学生活，即用一生的好奇心来探索理解周围的宇宙，以及了解我们自己。事实上，今天我们也谈到了神经科学，讨论了大脑如何运作，以及我相信每个人都会问的各种问题，无论你是否是科学家。这些问题包括：我们从哪里来？是否有上帝？我们的用途或在宇宙中的目的是什么？我们如何思考这些关于我们从何而来和我们的目的的高度抽象的问题，以及量子层面上那些我们甚至看不见的微小事物如何运作？同时，我们又是如何过上既有意义又愉快的日常生活的。
We talk about this in the context of understanding oneself in relation to others, family, community, including scientific community, and what it is like to come from a different country. My father immigrated from South America. What it was like to do science in the United States then and now, cultural differences. And of course, we touch on some of our relationship as well. How could we not? I must say, for me, it was an immense pleasure and privilege to have this conversation, not just because Dr. Huberman is my father, but because I believe the knowledge and indeed some of the wisdom that he shares will be useful to everybody, about what it is to carve one's own unique trajectory in terms of career and life, and at the same time, how to savor the simple, everyday things that make life so worth living.
我们在讨论中谈到了理解自我与他人、家庭、社区(包括科学界)之间关系的背景，以及来自不同国家的体验。我父亲是从南美移民过来的。我们聊到了过去和现在在美国从事科学工作的经历和文化差异。当然，我们也涉及到了一些我们的关系，毕竟这是难以避免的。我必须说，对我来说，这次对话是极大的乐趣和荣幸，不仅仅因为Huberman博士是我的父亲，更因为我相信他分享的知识和智慧对于每个人都有益，帮助他们在事业和生活中开辟自己独特的道路，同时享受那些让生活如此美好的简单日常事物。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
在开始之前，我想强调的是，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究工作是分开的。然而，这是我希望通过零成本向公众传播科学和科学相关工具信息的努力和愿望的一部分。为了支持这一主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是Helix Sleep。Helix Sleep专门制作根据您独特睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。我在这个和其他播客中多次提到，一个良好的夜间睡眠是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。您所使用的床垫对每晚的睡眠质量有着巨大的影响。
How soft that mattress is, or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. So, if you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz that asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
这张床垫有多软或多硬，以及它的透气性，都会影响你的舒适度，因此需要根据你的个人睡眠需求来调整。如果你访问Helix网站，可以花大约两分钟做个简短的问卷，问卷内容包括你是仰卧、侧卧还是趴着睡？夜里你容易感到热还是冷？类似这样的问题。也许你知道这些问题的答案，也许你不知道。不管怎样，Helix都会为你匹配到最适合你的床垫。对我而言，最适合我的床垫是Dusk款，我在大约三年半前开始使用Dusk床垫，这段时间以来，我的睡眠质量是从未有过的好。
So much so that when I travel to hotels and Airbnbs, I find I don't sleep as well. I can't wait to get back to my Dusk mattress. So, if you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com.com. Take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for your unique sleep needs. Right now, Helix is giving up to 25% off all mattress orders. Again, that's helixsleep.com.com to get up to 25% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in high school. But pretty soon, I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise.
当我旅行住酒店或Airbnb时，我发现睡眠质量不如在家里的Dusk床垫好。所以，我迫不及待地想回到自己的床上休息。如果你也想试试Helix床垫，可以访问helixsleep.com，并花两分钟完成睡眠测试，Helix会根据你的独特睡眠需求匹配合适的床垫。现在，Helix提供所有床垫订单高达25%的折扣。再次提醒，访问helixsleep.com可享受高达25%折扣。
今天这一集还由BetterHelp带给我们。BetterHelp提供完全在线的专业治疗，由持牌治疗师进行。我参加每周治疗已经超过30年了。最初，我是因为想继续留在高中学习才不得不参加治疗。但很快我意识到，治疗对整体健康非常重要。事实上，我认为定期参加治疗和规律锻炼一样重要。
Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and talk to about any and all issues that concern you. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support, but also directed guidance, the do's and the not to do's. And third, expert therapy can help you arrive at useful insights that you would not have arrived at otherwise. Insights that allow you to do better, not just in your emotional life and your relationship life, but also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and all sorts of career goals. With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you can really resonate with and provide you with these three benefits that I described. Also, because BetterHelp is carried out entirely online, it's very time-efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule. So if you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com.com.
现在，优秀的治疗提供三个基本要素。首先，它能够让你与一个值得信赖的人建立良好的关系，你可以与他们讨论任何让你困扰的问题。其次，优秀的治疗不仅提供情感支持，还会给予明确的指导，包括可以做和不可以做的事情。第三，专业的治疗能够帮助你获得有意义的见解，这些见解是你自己难以获得的。它们不仅能帮助你改善情感生活和人际关系，还能改善你对自己的认知，以及职业生活和各种事业目标。在BetterHelp上，他们让你很容易找到一位与你非常契合的专家治疗师，并能为你提供我刚才描述的这三种好处。此外，由于BetterHelp完全在线进行，非常节省时间，容易融入忙碌的日程。如果你想尝试BetterHelp，可以访问betterhelp.com。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Bernardo Huberman. Dr. Bernardo Huberman, welcome. Thank you, Andrew. And also great to see you, Dad. Same here. I guess no premonition would have foreseen this one. No, absolutely not. And people might notice today I'm drinking out of a matte gourd. In part in honor of my father's father who drank out of his loosely-frized, every morning, my first sip of matte was taken on sitting in his lap when I was maybe four years old. Yes, yes. Me and my Spider-Man pajamas. In any event, let's talk about science. You're born in Argentina. As I recall, because once we had a conversation about it, you had a teacher, maybe it was in high school, who turned you on to physics, which became a teacher. Yes, yes. But prior to that, were you interested in different subjects? I don't recall if you had an avid interest in academics or you just did it because you were supposed to. Prior to that teacher, then we'll talk about him. Yes, yes. I was always very interested in ideas and so on. Science at that time was a bit vague, but I read a lot of philosophy. I didn't understand much of what I read, but nevertheless, I kept reading it. I was interested in psychology. I was an avid reader.
现在来听听我与Bernardo Huberman博士的讨论。Bernardo Huberman博士，欢迎您。谢谢你，Andrew。见到你也很高兴，爸爸。我也是。我想没人能预见到我们会有这样的对话。是的，绝对不可能。大家可能会注意到今天我用的是一个马黛杯。这部分是为了向我爷爷致敬，他每天早晨都用这样的杯子喝马黛茶。我第一次喝马黛茶就是坐在他腿上，那时我大概四岁。是的，是的，我穿着《蜘蛛侠》的睡衣。无论如何，让我们来谈谈科学。您出生在阿根廷。我记得我们曾经聊过这个话题，您有一位老师，可能是在高中时候，是他激发了您对物理的兴趣，后来也成为了老师。是的，是的。但在遇到那位老师之前，您对其他学科感兴趣吗？我不记得您是对学习有浓厚兴趣还是因为应该学习而去学习。在那位老师之前，我们来聊聊他。是的，是的。我一直对各种思想很感兴趣。那时的科学对我来说有点模糊，但我读了很多哲学。我不太懂我读的东西，但我还是一直在读。我对心理学感兴趣，是个热情的读者。
As a matter of fact, I embarrassed my father, actually, making him disappointed when, for a birthday, I think I was 14 years old. I asked him to buy me the 12 volumes of Freud's writings. Really? Yes, and he said what for? But I was very interested with it. Of course, I couldn't even understand half of what these books had in them. So I was very interested in many things. I must say to you that my interest in science, in particular physics, doesn't come from the standard thing that you see here in the United States mostly. Namely, I was not a wiz kid in math. I was not one of these people that can really do things very, very quickly and so on. But I was interested because I thought that physics was going to complement my attempt at understanding how they call universities put together.
事实上，我的确让我的父亲感到尴尬，甚至让他失望。那时候，我想我14岁生日时，我请他给我买弗洛伊德的12本作品集。真的？是的，他问我买来干什么。但我对这些书非常感兴趣。当然，我甚至无法理解书中一半的内容。我对很多事情都很感兴趣。我必须告诉你，我对科学、特别是物理的兴趣，并不是像你在美国大多数看到的那样。我并不是一个数学天才，也不是那种可以非常快地解决问题的人。但我对物理感兴趣是因为我认为这能够帮助我更好地理解大学是如何组织的。
The philosophers were saying all sorts of things. I went to a very special school that I learned six years of Latin and so on. And I had to read things like Canton, Cosmogonos, Cosmogonys and so on. That really didn't mean much to me. But suddenly I started discovering that physics might be interesting. And I had a cousin, Hector, who was a physicist. The particle physicist already. I mean, he was living all that time in France. And so there was a little bit of other influence. But my interest was in things that had to do with fairly abstract ideas. I cannot believe that at one point or the other I was very good in geometry class, being able to prove theorems.
哲学家们讨论了各种各样的事情。我上了一所非常特别的学校，在那里我学了六年的拉丁语等等。我还必须阅读像康顿、宇宙生成论这样的东西，这些对我来说并没有太大意义。但突然之间，我开始发现物理可能很有趣。我有一个表兄，赫克托，他是一位物理学家，专攻粒子物理。他那时一直住在法国，所以他对我也有一点影响。但我对那些与相当抽象的概念相关的事物更感兴趣。我很难相信，在某个时候我在几何课上表现得很好，能够证明一些定理。
I mean, the teacher was just saying, let's prove this. And I was somehow able to reason through and come to some proofs. So I think that I was very interested in ideas and not necessarily in the very concrete aspects of science. Can I ask you a question about early school? Yeah. So if I remember correctly, you were born naturally left-handed. Yes.
我的意思是，老师当时只是说，让我们来证明这个。而我不知怎么的能够推理并得出一些结论。所以我认为自己对想法很感兴趣，而不一定对科学的具体方面感兴趣。我可以问你一个关于小学的问题吗？好啊。如果我没记错的话，你天生是左撇子。对的。
They forced you to learn to write with your right hand. Yes. You went to a very strict school. Yes. Like military levels of strictness. Almost, yes. This is a very interesting type of education. They have an in France, it's called the Lise, in France. And this is a very special school in Argentina. I was actually founded in France.
他们强迫你用右手写字。是的。你上的是一所非常严格的学校。是的。严格程度几乎像军事一样。差不多是这样。这是一种非常有趣的教育方式。在法国，他们有一种叫做“Lise”（高中）的学校。而在阿根廷，这也是一所非常特别的学校。实际上，这所学校是在法国创立的。
I was actually founded in the 1500s by the Jesuits. And my father went to that school. And so he wanted me to go there. And my brother went there too. And in six years of a very strict education, mostly humanistic. I learned Greek and learned Latin. I learned in Minnes a month of history, which I loved. And there were other courses in French and so on. In French we had to memorize incredibly long poems that we had to recite. Do you still remember some of them? Because sometimes early memories are embedded so deeply. Yes, yes.
我实际上是在1500年代由耶稣会士创立的学校上学。我的父亲也曾在那里就读，所以他希望我也去那里。我的哥哥也去了那所学校。在六年的非常严格的人文教育中，我学习了希腊语和拉丁语。我还学了一个月的历史，特别喜欢这门课。还有其他法语等课程。在法语课上，我们必须背诵非常长的诗，然后要朗诵出来。你还记得其中一些吗？因为早期的记忆有时候会非常深刻地刻在脑海中。是的，是的。
And my brother and I sometimes tell each other some other pieces of these poems. Yes. I'll just say something right now to foreshadow what will likely happen several times throughout today's discussion, which is any time that my father is in the presence of his brother, my uncle Carlos, they start laughing about jokes that they've been telling over and over back and forth with one another since they were a young kid. So just the mere mention of his brother will bring a bit of a smile and a chuckle to both of our faces. Yes, yes.
我和我哥哥有时会互相分享这些诗歌中的一些片段。是的。我现在要说一些话，来预示一下今天讨论过程中可能会多次发生的事情，就是每当我父亲和他的哥哥（也就是我卡洛斯叔叔）在一起时，他们就会开始大笑，因为他们从小就一直在互相讲述同样的笑话。所以，只要提到他的哥哥，就会让我们脸上都露出微笑和轻笑。是的，是的。
So I learned a lot of French and also my parents decided, my mother mostly, that I had to learn French and English. And I went to Aliens Fransées, where for five years I went there, I was essentially the only boy in the class, which was very nice in a way. And in order to graduate, essentially, you know, to be fluent in French. But in a special school I went to the discipline, it was very strict, very strict.
所以我学了很多法语，同时我父母，也主要是我妈妈，决定我要学习法语和英语。我去了一所叫Aliens Fransées的学校，在那里上了五年的课。班上基本上就我一个男生，这在某种意义上来说还是挺不错的。为了能流利地说法语，我必须在这个特别严格的学校毕业。在这所学校，纪律非常严格，非常严格。
You know, we were supposed to do things you don't do in the United States. The moment the teacher walks in, everybody stands up. And if you're late and standing up, you just kick that out of the classroom and things of that sort. But it was a lovely experience in many ways when I reflected in it, because it gave me a humanistic education that has been incredibly useful in my career. Most people don't realize that. I mean, I tend to think of things in a very broad context, and it's because of the education I had. Okay, so, and I loved the history of Rome, and I learned to recite things in Latin. And so it was very, very, I enjoyed that very, very much. My brother didn't, actually. And so.
你知道，我们本来应该做一些在美国不常见的事情。比如，当老师走进教室时，每个人都要站起来。如果你迟到了并且起立慢了，就会被赶出教室等等。不过，当我回忆这些经历时，我觉得在很多方面都是美好的，因为这种人文教育在我的职业生涯中非常有用。大多数人没有意识到这一点。我倾向于从广阔的视角来看待问题，这都归功于我所受的教育。我很喜欢罗马历史，还学会了用拉丁语背诵东西。我非常非常享受这些。而我弟弟倒没有，他不太喜欢。
Well, you two are very different. Yeah. Great, great adoration for Carlos. But you two are very different. Along those lines, I was just about to ask or mention, and some of our Argentine and South American listeners generally, and perhaps even European listeners, might be shocked and perhaps disappointed to learn that you're one of the few Argentines that I know who doesn't care much for the game of football soccer. It doesn't seem to concern you much at all. No, no.
好吧，你们两个确实很不一样。是的，对Carlos有很大的敬佩。但是你们两个真的很不一样。说到这，我本来就想提一下，可能我们的一些阿根廷和南美的听众，甚至可能还有一些欧洲听众，可能会感到震惊甚至失望，那就是你是我认识的为数不多的不怎么热衷于足球（在美式英语中称为soccer）的阿根廷人之一。你似乎对此完全不感兴趣。是的，没错。
The reasons for that are sort of interesting. I think I've reflected on that because my own wife likes to watch a soccer game. I mean, she's Danish. She likes European tournaments. I never liked mob behavior. I never liked this whole passionate involvement in these things. I don't know why. I was never able to understand that. To the point that I never went to a soccer game the week before I left for the United States, my brother insisted that I had to go to a soccer game. And this is sort of embarrassing.
这背后的原因有些有趣。我想过这个，因为我自己的妻子喜欢看足球比赛。她是丹麦人，她喜欢看欧洲的比赛。而我一直不喜欢那种群体行为，不喜欢对这些事情有强烈的投入。我不知道为什么，我从来无法理解这个。甚至在我去美国的前一周，我都没去过一场足球比赛，我哥哥坚持让我去一场。这让我觉得有点尴尬。
But at one point or the other, there was a good goal, and so on. It stood up and said, this is great. And I was on the wrong side of the audience. People got very almost violent with me. So, yeah, soccer, to me, is something that I watch, but I'm not passionate about. Right. Yeah, I never really felt that it was that interesting. Although, you know, I was in a rowing team. I learned boxing. I did a lot of sports. But I don't like that much of spectator sports. Like tennis.
不管是哪一场比赛，总会有一个精彩的进球，我会觉得这很棒。但我当时站在观众席的错误一边，大家对我几乎变得很暴力。所以，对我来说，足球只是我观看的一项运动，我并没有对它充满热情。我从来没觉得足球特别有趣。虽然我参加过赛艇队，也学习过拳击，尝试了很多运动，但我并不太喜欢观看体育比赛，比如网球。
I played tennis since I was a teenager. No, I'm not a spectator sport fan either. The other day, someone asked me what my favorite sports team is. You'll like this. And I said the Harlem Globetrotters because they're undefeated. They have the best record. And that was actually the one professional sports team game you took me to when I was a kid. We'd always go see the Globetrotters. They're undefeated. Yes, unbelievable. Yes.
我从十几岁的时候就开始打网球。我也不怎么喜欢看运动比赛。前几天，有人问我最喜欢的运动队是什么。你一定会喜欢这个答案。我回答说是哈林篮球队，因为他们从来没输过。他们拥有最佳的比赛记录。这也是你小时候唯一带我去看的职业运动队比赛。我们总是去看哈林篮球队。他们真的是无敌，太不可思议了。
My father took me to see them too. They're fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So, your father was not a scientist. No. Your brother is not a scientist. And you were faded according to them to join the family business. But then you had a teacher who exposed you to physics. And to the notion of being authentic in what you want. There were two parts to it. He was a very interesting and tormented man, I felt. But it was very interesting. He were coming to the class. Most of the students really didn't care about what he was saying. And so I was fascinated not only by what he was saying, but his whole personality. But I need to say something here that is important. I also was rather irresponsible. You see, I grew up in a family, a well-to-do family, that I never thought I was going to make a living. So it was easy to be interested in science or anything because it's what you do. You're interested in culture. You read books. You do things. But my father used to say, what are you going to do once you graduate? You don't want to start teaching in elementary schools or something like that. My brother used to say, if he does physics, I'll have to support him because he still says that. So scientists were considered poor. Poor. Yeah. They couldn't get a job. And so I think that science in Argentina has a big tradition in medical sciences, I think, two or three Nobel prices and so on. But in physics, they produce some very good physicists.
我父亲也带我去看过他们。他们太棒了。对，我非常喜欢。所以，你的父亲不是科学家。不是。你的兄弟也不是科学家。而你本来是被认为要加入家族生意的。但是后来你遇到一位老师，他让你接触到了物理学，也让你明白要忠于自己的兴趣。其中有两个方面让我着迷。首先，我觉得他是个既有趣又内心挣扎的人。他来上课时，大多数学生对他讲的内容不感兴趣，而我不仅对他所说的内容着迷，也对他整个人的个性着迷。但我必须说一些重要的事情。我在成长过程中相对不负责任。你看，我是在一个富裕的家庭长大的，所以从未想过生计问题。这使得我很容易对科学或其他事情感兴趣，因为这就是你所做的：你对文化感兴趣，你读书，你做事。但我父亲曾说，你毕业后打算做什么？你不会想去小学教书之类的吧。我兄弟常说，如果我从事物理学，他就得养我，他现在仍然这么说。所以科学家在当时被认为是贫穷的。是的，他们找不到工作。而我认为阿根廷的科学在医学领域有很大传统，好像有两三个诺贝尔奖之类的。但在物理学领域，他们也产生了一些非常优秀的物理学家。
One of them lives in the United States. I mean, it's very, very famous, Malda Senna. I haven't met him, but I know this is one of the top people in the field. But I just got into this because I was interested. It sounded fascinating and abstract and the ideas were so powerful. And I think, and I reflected a lot on this, when you're psychologically in another lesson, because my parents made me jump two grades. So I was much younger than my classmates. And that created a lot of problems for me. I mean, at the time when you develop being and so on, all the boys were talking about girls and so on, I still was really interested in understanding why the excitement and so on, you know, I was very young. But it gave me a sense of order, you know, reading a book about physics and understanding that are laws that tell you how things work, gave me a tremendous sense of order and power. So, you know, everything else was still in flow and the family and my own relationships with friends and girlfriends or whatever. And going back to science, it was just a sense of, and I still remember those days. It was very, very soothing in a way. So, it's like a touchstone. Yes, yes, yes. And what grade were you, like this teacher was this like middle school high school? Yeah, no, yeah, high school. Yeah, I was 13 or 14 years old. Yeah, yeah. When I finally, I started listening to this and...
其中一位住在美国。我是说，他非常非常有名，就是Malda Senna。我没见过他，但我知道他是该领域的顶尖人物之一。我之所以涉足这个领域，完全是因为我的兴趣。它听起来令人着迷又抽象，而且这些想法非常有力量。我反思了很多，当你在心理上进入另一个阶段时，因为我父母让我跳了两级，所以我比同学小很多，这给我带来了很多问题。比如在男生们都在谈论女生的时候，我还热衷于理解那种兴奋感的原因，因为我很年轻。但通过阅读物理书籍，了解到一些法则可以解释事物的运行方式，这给了我极大的秩序感和力量感。尽管家庭和我自己与朋友以及可能的女友的关系还在发展中，但回到科学领域时，那种感觉依然鲜明。我仍然记得那些日子，非常非常安慰人心，有点像是心灵的寄托。是的，对的。而你当时是几年级，比如说，老师是初中还是高中？是的，是高中。我那时大概13或14岁。是的，当我真正开始关注这些时。
I said, wow, this is impressive. You know, it's powerful. There are ways to know what's true and what's not true. You know, you just don't speculate on things. So, but most of this stuff, I didn't really understand. Then I had this cousin of mine, Hector, who was already gone, but I would go to his parents' house and there were his books, all his incredible books and quantum mechanics, relativity, and I would just take them home. And I didn't really comprehend a lot of the math, but somehow I seemed impressive. It was like looking into a mechanism or something.
我说：“哇，这真是令人赞叹。你知道吗，这很有力量。我们可以找到方法去辨别真伪，而不是随意猜测。”不过，我其实并不完全明白这些东西的大部分。然后，我有一个已经去世的表兄，叫赫克托，我会去他父母家，那里有他所有的书，各种令人惊叹的书籍，涉及量子力学、相对论。我就把这些书带回家。虽然很多数学内容我并不理解，但我还是觉得很震撼。这就像是在研究一种机制或东西。
So, and I used to take them to school. And one of my teachers once said, you know, you seem to interested in this, but you don't understand this. So you need to, you need to learn it. And he was the one who started pushing into this. On the other hand, my family was saying, you should become a lawyer. Just, you know, my brother and father. And that never interested you? No. It's interesting because now I'm very interested in aspects of constitutional law and so on. When I hear about arguments against, you know, the Supreme Court and so on, I became very interested in law and economics later on. I mean, just to read about it. But when my father was talking about at the dining room table, it was all about strategies of, you know, getting something done half an hour before the opposition. So you win a case. I mean, I was totally interested in that.
所以，我过去常常带他们去上学。我的一个老师曾经对我说，你似乎对这个感兴趣，但你并不真正理解它。所以你需要去学习。是他开始推动我去深入研究这方面。而另一方面，我的家人——特别是我的哥哥和父亲——则认为我应该成为一名律师。而这对我来说没有吸引力吗？确实没有。但有趣的是，现在我对宪法法律等方面非常感兴趣。当我听到关于反对最高法院的争论时，我对法律和经济学产生了浓厚的兴趣，只是为了读一读。不过，当我父亲在餐桌上谈论这些的时候，所有都是关于要如何在对方之前半小时完成一些事情，以赢得官司。而我对此完全没有兴趣。
I'm sensing a bit of a theme, which is that social dynamics and what other people do, regardless of whether or not they like it or it earns them a particular living, didn't capture you. Like the idea that people and their groups and their ways of thinking and behaving, while they may not bother you, it doesn't, it didn't captivate you. The way that like, it sounds like physics, you know, made you think that there's something kind of bigger. That there's something more universal, which indeed physics is, right? It is, it explains most everything. Yes, most everything. Yes, and I also think that I was a bit of a loner. It was very hard to find people that, you know, children or young people that thought like me. So eventually I became part of a group. We were four or five guys that used to get together on Saturdays and, you know, go to the movies and so on.
我感觉有点主题，就是社会动态和其他人的行为，无论他们是否喜欢或靠此谋生，都没有吸引你。就像是人们的群体以及他们的思维和行为方式，虽然可能不打扰你，但也没有吸引你。听起来，好像是物理学让你觉得有某种更宏大的东西，有某种更普遍的东西，而物理学确实如此，对吧？它确实解释了几乎所有事情。是的，几乎所有事情。是的，我也觉得自己有点像个独行者。很难找到与我思维相似的孩子或年轻人。所以最终我成为了一个小团体的一员。我们有四五个小伙伴，常在周六聚在一起看电影等。
And then afterwards discuss, you know, whatever we were interested in and so on. I was only 16 years old, you know, and deciding what to do with my life. Of all four of us, we committed. Some of them came from incredibly wealthy families, two of them. We committed to really be true to ourselves and pursue what we liked. But I was the only one. The other two ended up running the business of their parents and one of them essentially, I don't know what he did. I saw him years later. Money becomes a pretty bright beacon for a lot of people. Yes, yes, yes.
然后我们会继续讨论我们感兴趣的话题等等。那时候我才16岁，还在思考我人生的方向。在我们四个之中，我们都下定决心追求自己的兴趣。有两个人来自非常富有的家庭。我们承诺要做真实的自己，追求我们喜欢的东西。但最终只有我坚持了下来。其他两个人最后接手了父母的生意，其中一个人，我不知道后来他做了什么，几年后才见到他。金钱对很多人来说是一道很亮的诱惑。是的，是的。
I'm grateful to you that you never pushed me to go in any particular direction. You pushed me to not go in particular directions, but never with respect to academic choices. In fact, I don't recall you telling me or Lara, that by the way, folks, that's my sister's name, that we had to do anything except attend our classes and do our best. But I never felt pushed to go into science. No, no. Although you had a little bit of a curiosity about it. Animals. Animals?
我很感激你从未逼我朝某个特定方向努力。你确实会劝我避开某些方向，但从不会影响我的学术选择。其实，我不记得你曾告诉我或拉拉（顺便说一下，那是我妹妹的名字）我们必须做什么，除了上课和尽力而为。不过，我从未感到被推到科学领域。没有，没有。虽然你对科学有一点好奇心。动物。动物？
And I remember I was going through a period in which I started getting convinced that there was very little to do in physics. And I wanted to change. And one day, when I bike ride, I think I was carrying in the back of my bike and bicycle. You were young. You asked me, what is the unsolved problem? And I said, I don't think it's in physics, but it's the brain. And you said, okay, I'll go into that. You said, I'll never forget that. Well, it's interesting. I'm fascinated by human memory, as you know, I know you are as well. And I recall that story as well. I recall it slightly differently, but we're really closely aligned, which is I remember used to walk me to school in the morning.
我记得那段时间我开始产生一种想法，觉得物理学领域能做的事情非常有限，于是我想转行。有一天，我在骑自行车的时候，似乎在车后面载着东西。你当时还小，问我有什么未解决的问题。我说，我觉得不在物理学，而是在大脑研究上。你说好的，那我就去研究这个。你提到，你永远不会忘记那次对话。嗯，这很有趣。正如你所知道的，我对人类记忆非常感兴趣，我知道你也是。我也记得这个故事，不过我的记忆稍微有些不同，但是我们的记忆总体上还是很一致的。我记得你以前早晨送我上学。
And you would drop me off at the cut-through to the path behind gun high school, because that's, I would pick up Kristin Harnett across the street. And you told me it would be better if I picked her up by myself and walked her to the end of the street, which is where class was. You were teaching me chivalry. And I remember asking you what you do. I was probably five or six years. Let's see, first grade. So it'd probably be somewhere around six or seven years old. I asked you what you do, and you said physics. And I said, well, what is that? And you said, well, let me tell you the feeling it gives me instead.
你会把我放在通往枪高中后面小路的入口，因为我要在街对面接克里斯汀·哈奈特。你告诉我，最好是我自己去接她，然后陪她走到街的尽头，那是上课的地方。你在教我什么是绅士风度。我记得我问你是做什么的。当时我大概五六岁，或者说上一年级的时候，大概六七岁。我问你做什么工作，你说是物理。我接着问，那是什么？你说，让我告诉你那种给我的感觉吧。
You said, you know the night before your birthday. And I said, yeah. And he said, you know that feeling? And I said, yeah. And you said, well, that's how I feel every day when I go to work. Yeah. And I remember, I'll never forget that. And I said, what do you do? And you said, I'm a physicist. And I said, well, then I'll be a physicist. And then I recall, so maybe we had the conversation twice, you saying, well, most of the big problems in physics are solved. So you should pick something, perhaps a little less untread like, and I said, like what? And you said, well, the brain is pretty interesting. And then I said, OK, I'll work on that. Yeah.
你说过，在你生日的前一天晚上有一种特殊的感觉。我说，是的。你说，你知道那种感觉吗？我说，是的。然后你说，这就是我每天上班时的感觉。我还记得，我永远不会忘记这件事。我问你，"你是做什么工作的？" 你说，“我是物理学家。” 我说，“那我也要成为物理学家。” 后来我记得，我们可能进行了两次这样的对话，你说，大部分的物理学难题已经解决了，所以我应该选择一个可能还没完全被探索的领域。我问，“比如什么？” 你说，“大脑非常有趣。” 然后我说，“好，那我就研究这个。” 是的。
So this issue of feeling like before your birthday is something I remember saying to you, I don't recall feeling that way every day. I do recall feeling like this when I had an idea and finally worked out and we wrote a paper and so on. You know, it was an incredible, exciting time. You know, well, you know about it. You've done it yourself now. And so I wanted to convey that to you. It was very, very interesting and important to me that you understood that. On the other hand, it made me feel very isolated as well, not only with you, with everybody. I mean, you say it's a very esoteric field. You know, you used to walk into the study, look, I mean, you know, writing equations and so on. And would you say, what's that, you know, or?
所以，这种在你生日之前的感觉是我记得曾对你提过的，不过我不记得每天都有这样的感觉。我确实记得当时有一个想法，最终把它实现了，并且我们写了一篇论文等等。你知道，那是一个充满激动和兴奋的时刻。你也经历过，所以我想把这种感觉传达给你。这对我来说非常有趣且重要，我希望你能理解这点。但另一方面，这也让我感到非常孤独，不仅仅是在你面前，而是对所有人。我是说，这个领域确实非常深奥。你曾走进书房，看着我写方程式之类的，然后会问，那是什么，或者类似的问题？
I was thinking about your study, which was just a door down from my childhood bedroom. I still remember the way that your study smelled. I can still smell it. I have an incredible sense of memory for certain things. I can still remember, but I remember how your books were aligned, where your stereo was placed, your photos, your photo of Einstein, your photos of me and Laura and Mom. I remember all of it. And the sofa that was just off behind it because you're a napped taker, like, which I inherited from you.
我在想你的书房，它就在我小时候卧室旁边一扇门的地方。我还记得你的书房的气味，仿佛还能闻到。我对某些事情有着惊人的记忆力。我仍然记得你书本的摆放方式，你的立体声音响的位置，你的照片，你的爱因斯坦照片，还有我和劳拉以及妈妈的照片，我都记得。而且还有那张沙发，就在后边，因为你爱小憩，我也遗传了你这一点。
But I remember that, yeah, you would spend a lot of time in that office and listening to classical music. Do you listen to music while you work? Or did you listen? All the time. Yeah, classical music for me is something I discovered very young, very young. My parents also loved classical music, my brother, too. And it's something that I, to me, has a tremendous emotional resonance with the way I feel. Sometimes it's background music. Sometimes I really listen very carefully. It's something that I, yes, I've always had in my life and still have it. I mean, it's very, very important to me.
我记得，你是会待在办公室里很长时间，并且听古典音乐。你工作的时候会听音乐吗？或者说你以前会听吗？一直都会听。古典音乐对我来说是我很小的时候就发现的东西，非常小。我父母也很喜欢古典音乐，我兄弟也是。对我来说，古典音乐能与我的情感产生强烈的共鸣。有时候它是背景音乐，有时候我会非常认真地听。这是我一直以来生活中的一部分，而现在仍然如此。这对我来说非常非常重要。
But not many musicians in our family. No, unfortunately. Yeah. Although there is a very famous one. You've all tried. We've all tried. Yeah, yeah, you in particular. Yeah, yeah. We all failed. Yeah, yeah. There is a very famous Huberman, the violinist Bronislav Huberman. I mean, there's a picture I think I sent it to Yuki and Einstein. He was one of the greatest violinists in the 1920s, 30s and 40s, an incredibly interesting man. He's the founder of the Israel Philharmonic. And that's one of the reasons that the name Huberman is in some street in Israel because of him. Are we related to him? Unfortunately not. Which explains the lack of musical prowess in our family. We all love music, but none of us are good musicians. No, right. Yes. Except my cousin Diego. Diego was, he has a perfect year, so he can really do interesting things. Yes.
我们家里音乐家不多。很遗憾，是的。虽然有一个很有名的音乐家。我们都尝试过。我们都努力尝试过，是的，你尤其如此。对，但我们都失败了。是的。在我们家族里有一位非常著名的Huberman——小提琴家Bronislav Huberman。我想我把他的照片发给了Yuki和爱因斯坦。 他是20世纪20年代、30年代和40年代最伟大的小提琴家之一，是个非常有趣的人。他是以色列爱乐乐团的创始人，所以以色列有些街道以Huberman命名是因为他。我们和他有亲戚关系吗？很遗憾没有。这也解释了我们家族在音乐方面缺乏天赋。我们都热爱音乐，但我们家没有人是出色的音乐家。是的，对。除了我的表弟Diego。Diego有绝对音感，所以他在音乐上能做出很有趣的事情。是的。
So going back to your childhood, this teacher, right? Yes. So, I mean, what was it? You already had a sort of ceded an interest in finding order and things that made the world make sense. What was the political situation in Argentina at that time? Quite horrible parts of it. I mean, there was a dictatorship that lasted for a long time. This Peron thing and so on. He was really a follower of Mussolini and people of that sort of in World War II. So what did that mean, like out in the streets? Like you grew up in the heart of Buenos Aires. Yes. But like what did that mean in terms of, I mean, was there poverty everywhere? I mean, was there violence? No, no, no. What does it spell out to you? Well, it was a very oppressive regime. I mean, I was able to be careful what you talked about, you know, in my family, like most of the social class. We had maids and a cook and so you had to be very careful what you said. Because they would run that information down. Absolutely. And people, and your grandfather, my father, that went from there, was prevented from coming to visit me in the United States because he was classified as a communist because he did not join the Peron's party. Okay.
回到你的童年时代，那位老师，对吧？是的。我是说，那时你已经在寻找让世界有意义的秩序和事物上萌生了兴趣。那么当时阿根廷的政治情况是怎样的呢？有些方面是相当糟糕的。我是说，那时有一个持续了很长时间的独裁政权，就是那个庇隆的事情等等。他确实是墨索里尼和二战时期那类人的追随者。那么这在街上意味着什么呢？因为你是在布宜诺斯艾利斯的中心长大的。是的。但具体来说，那意味着，比如，到处都是贫穷吗？有暴力吗？不，不，不。对你来说，这意味着什么呢？嗯，那是一个非常压迫性的政权。我是说，在我家，包括大多数社会阶层中，我不得不小心说话。我们有女佣和厨师，所以你得非常小心你说的话。因为他们会把信息传下去。没错。还有人，像你的祖父，我的父亲，从那里出发，不能来美国看我，因为他被认为是共产主义者，因为他没有加入庇隆的政党。
For the record, we are not communists. We were both big believers in capitalism. He said, in here, he said, yes. Right. So, no, and so it was terrible. It was a terrible time. It was a very oppressive time. But he wasn't a communist. No, of course not. Of course not. It was on the other side. But the idea at that time, it was to be classified as such. Eventually, that information leaked to the American authorities. So when he asked for a visa, they denied him. It was a very complicated story. I don't think we should waste time to know how he got eventually resolved to a friend of mine who was a priest just with here in the United States. But the point being that during that time, you have to be very careful the way you spoke, the way you said things. There was a dictatorship that was very much like the fascist in Italy. And actually, that dictatorship lasted until a few years ago because as you know, as you heard, the new president we have is one that actually ran against this whole ideology, peronism and so on. Mille.
澄清一下，我们不是共产主义者。我们俩都非常信仰资本主义。他曾经这样说过，对，就是这样。所以，不，我们经历了一段非常糟糕的时期，那真是段压抑的时光。但是他不是共产主义者。当然不是，当然不是。他站在另一边。然而，在那个时候，他被这样归类。后来，这个信息泄露给了美国当局。当他申请签证时，他们拒绝了他。这个故事非常复杂。我认为我们不需要浪费时间了解他后来如何通过我在美国的一位当神父的朋友解决这个问题。但重点是，在那段时间里，你说话要非常小心。那是一个非常像意大利法西斯的独裁统治。实际上，那场独裁统治直到几年前才结束，因为正如你所知道，你所听到的新总统是与这种意识形态，庇隆主义等等相对立的人。Mille。
Yes. I was never, I was not political at all, but you had to be careful. But it was a funny time. And when he was overthrown through a military revolution, my parents were delighted and we, I remember the celebrations and so on. But that was considered the minority that was against him. It was a social class movement. The working class was behind, beyond what he promised and what he gave them. So that eventually died. So the real problem was that there was no real commitment to science as an investment that the country should make. Yes, it was nice to have Nobel Prizes and it's culturally good. But they didn't have the pragmatic notions that we have seen in the United States of doing science means solving concrete problems. And this was in the 1950s. The 60s too. Right. So this was the like one of the biggest and fastest progressions of physics and its implementation in the US. Yes. So were you hearing about that? Of course. I was following it all and I wanted to, you know, I wanted to buy books about it and so on. I had some conflicts with my father about spending money on books that he thought they were not going to take me anywhere and so on. I mean, he was a very pragmatic lawyer. He didn't understand why I was doing these things. So, yes, I was aware of everything.
好的。我以前从来都不关心政治，但当时必须小心。那是个有趣的时代。后来他通过军事革命被推翻，我的父母非常高兴。我记得当时的庆祝活动等等。不过，那时候反对他的人被认为是少数派。这是一次社会阶层的运动。工人阶级支持他，因为他对他们承诺并提供了一些东西，但最终这种影响消退了。真正的问题在于国家并没有真正投入到科学作为一种投资。拿到诺贝尔奖当然很好，也对文化有益，但他们没有像美国那样实用的观念，认为做科学能解决具体问题。这发生在20世纪50年代，60年代也是。在美国，这是物理学及其应用发展最快的时期之一。是的，你当时有听说过吗？当然。我一直在关注这些，我还想买关于这方面的书籍等等。我还因为花钱买书的问题与我父亲发生过一些冲突，他觉得书籍对我没有帮助。他是个非常实际的律师，不明白我为什么要这样做。所以，是的，我对这一切都很清楚。
And actually, the university was very good. I entered the university and you had to choose what you wanted to do. And after a tremendous crisis, personal crisis, I decided not to go into law or engineering, which was the alternative my father offered and decided to study physics. And I didn't regret it at all. It was a very impressive time. You know, I got a good education in physics. A little bit too abstract.
实际上，大学很好。我进入了大学，你必须选择你想学习的专业。在经历了一场巨大的个人危机后，我决定不去学法律或工程，这也是我父亲给我的另一个选择，而是决定学习物理。我一点也不后悔。这段时间非常令人难忘。你知道，我在那里接受了良好的物理学教育，虽然有点过于抽象。
So this was experimental physics or theoretical physics? Both. In the lab, I was okay. I mean, I was better in classes. I took a lot of courses in advanced mathematics and calculus and beyond that. And, you know, complex analysis and so on. It was. So it turns out you were good at math after all. Good. Yes. I understand math. I'm not a whiz. I mean, like many of my students have been. I had guys that can do incredible things, you know, that I can do them, but slowly. I understand. Yes. Yes. So, but yeah, physics is something that I knew how to be intuitive about it. I had already interesting ideas that perhaps didn't pan out. But yeah. The teacher in high school, were they the one that told you that there was like a career in this thing? Yes. He said, you know, you should devote yourself to this if you really care about it. He was a man that obviously he was sort of tormented on many levels and so on. He said that because of the way he carried himself physically? Yes. Yeah. He was troubled and was interesting. Intense, man. I still remember his name was in. He was a philosopher in the name of Eggersland, which is a German name. And he started talking about discovering, you know, Christianity and what he meant to him and what it is to be authentic and so on. So. And then I had a very large exposure to the great thinkers of the antiquated, Roman and Greek. So it was all to me fascinating, interesting. You know, and it was good to have friends that I could discuss these things with.
这是实验物理还是理论物理呢？两者都有。在实验室里，我还算可以。我是说，我在课堂上表现更好。我选修了很多高级数学课程，微积分，甚至超越这些，还有复分析之类的。事实证明，我的数学还不错。不是天才，但我理解数学。不是那种非常出色的，就像我的很多学生那样。我认识一些人可以做惊人的事情，我也能做到，只不过慢一点。我理解。是的。但是，物理是我知道如何直观理解的东西。我有一些可能没有实现的有趣想法。高中时的老师是告诉你这可以成为你的职业的人吗？是的。他说，如果你真的对此感兴趣，就应该全身心投入。他是一个显然在许多层面上受到折磨的人。你是因为他的举止这么认为的？是的。他很烦恼，但很有趣，是个激进的人。我依然记得他的名字，他叫埃格斯兰德，这是一个德国名字。他开始谈论对基督教的发现，对他意味着什么，怎样才是真诚的等等。此外，我还有大量接触罗马和希腊的古代伟大思想家。对我来说，这一切都既迷人又有趣。还有能够和朋友们讨论这些东西是件好事。
Do you think it's a disservice that nowadays in the United States, and even when I was growing up, but especially now, that we don't force kids to be exposed to all these topics? Like we try and track people into something early on. Actually, a recent guest told me that many schools are now just giving knowledge but not expecting kids to do problem sets. You know, teaching them about physical activity but not expecting them to do physical activity seriously. Well, that sounds a little bit funny. Yeah.
你认为现在在美国，甚至在我成长的年代，尤其是现在，我们不强迫孩子接触各种话题，这是不是一种不好的做法？比如我们早早地引导他们进入某个特定领域。实际上，最近一个嘉宾告诉我，现在很多学校只是传授知识，但不要求孩子们做练习题。比如教他们有关体育活动的知识，但不认真要求他们进行体育活动。这听起来有点滑稽。对吧？
Well, no, but that's. I mean, that is the direction that education in this country is going on. I was visiting professor in France, actually, if you live there because of that in Paris. And I discovered, you know, the French intellectual tradition is also very, very abstract compared to the American. I mean, the English and the Americans are the ones that took physics and the Russians, too, into a very, very practical realm and made progress that are very, very concrete, almost engineering-like.
嗯，不是这样的，但我的意思是，这确实是目前这个国家教育的发展方向。我曾经是法国的一名访问教授。如果你住在巴黎，因为这个原因我也住过那里。我发现法国的知识传统相比美国的来说非常非常抽象。也就是说，英国人和美国人，以及俄罗斯人，都把物理学引入到了一个非常实用的领域，并取得了非常具体的进展，几乎就像工程一样。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG-1. AG-1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. AG-1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great. Now, I've been drinking AG-1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited. In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement, AG-1.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商AG-1。AG-1是一种维生素、矿物质益生菌饮品，还包含益生元和适应原。AG-1旨在满足你所有的基础营养需求，而且味道很好。我从2012年开始喝AG-1，那时我对营养补充品的预算非常有限。事实上，当时我只能买一种补充品，我很高兴选择了AG-1。
The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micro-nutrients, and adaptogens from food alone. And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong. But when I take AG-1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.
原因是，尽管我努力去吃大多数的全食物和尽量少加工的食物，但单靠食物，很难让我摄取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质及其他微量营养素和适应原。而我需要这些来确保我每天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持强壮的免疫系统。但是，当我每天服用AG-1时，我发现我的身体健康、心理健康以及认知和体能表现的各个方面都有所改善。
I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG-1, and I certainly felt the difference. I also notice, and this makes perfect sense, given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG-1, which for me means serving in the morning or mid-morning, and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy. If you'd like to try AG-1, you can go to drinkag1.com.com.com to claim a special offer.
我知道这一点是因为有时候我没有服用AG-1，明显感受到差异。我也注意到，这很合理，因为肠道微生物群和大脑之间有联系，当我定期服用AG-1时，我会感到思路更加清晰，精神更有活力。对于我来说，这意味着每天早上或上午中吃一次，下午或晚上再吃一次。如果你想试试AG-1，可以访问drinkag1.com获取优惠。
Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com.com.com.au to claim that special offer.
现在，他们正在赠送五份免费的旅行套装和一年的维生素D3K2供应。再次提醒，访问 drinkag1.com.com.com.au 来领取这个特别优惠。
When I came to the United States, I must tell you, I came as a graduate student at the University of Brazil. Yeah, let's talk about that. So how did you end up getting into the United States as a graduate student? You applied. Yeah, I was graduating, and the future looked rather gloomy.
当我来到美国时，我必须告诉你们，我是作为巴西大学的研究生来的。 好的，我们来谈谈这个。 那么你是怎么以研究生身份来到美国的呢？ 你申请了。 是的，我当时快要毕业了，但前途看起来相当暗淡。
I had a girlfriend whose father was very wealthy, and she said no problem. You're going to work for my dad. And you know, he got a factory or whatever. Why do I feel like that is not the kind of offer that you'll go for? No, not at all. I've never known you to work for anyone except you. Yeah, in a way. You're a bit the same. Yeah, yeah. So, yes, yes. I just the idea of running a business was not.
我有一个女朋友，她的父亲非常富有。她对我说：没问题，你可以为我爸工作。他有一家工厂之类的。但是我为什么觉得这并不是你会接受的提议呢？不，没有想过。我从来没见过你给别人打工，除了为自己干。是的，可以这么说。你也有点像，是吧？所以，是的，我对经营生意这件事没什么兴趣。
I was truly idealistic and irresponsible too. But I had a cousin who was already, you know, got his PhD in theoretical physics at Columbia University. He was a professor in France, then Sweden and so on. So I felt that perhaps I should go to the United States. And so I started applying to this. My father was saying, you know, I won't even help you with this.
我当时真的非常理想主义，也很不负责任。不过，我有一个表兄已经在哥伦比亚大学获得了理论物理学的博士学位，他当时在法国当教授，后来去了瑞典等等。所以我觉得也许我应该去美国试试。因此，我开始申请这些（学校/职位）。我父亲则表示，他不会在这方面帮助我。
My parents didn't like it. I was very close to my family in many ways. And so I applied to many places. I remember being accepted at, I think, with Cornell and I said, oh, New York, that's great. Someone said to me, you have to take a plane to go to real New York. He loves New York City. He loves New York City. So in any way, I got this very, very nice fellowship to go to University of Pennsylvania, which is the fellowship from the Navy, the United States Navy.
我父母不太喜欢这件事。我在很多方面都和家人很亲近。所以我申请了很多地方。我记得我被录取了，我想，是康奈尔大学吧，我说，哦，纽约，真棒。有人跟我说，你要坐飞机才能去真正的纽约。他非常喜欢纽约市。他非常喜欢纽约市。所以，我得到了一个非常非常好的奖学金去宾夕法尼亚大学，也就是美国海军提供的奖学金。
Yeah, I'm very grateful for that. And I actually wrote that in my PhD thesis. You know, I was very grateful. I think it was incredible that they were supporting that kind of research. They wanted to bring you to the US to build weapons? No, no, no, not at all. Not at all. I came to the United States working for a professor bursting who just died at the age of 100 and 101. And, no, but I was supported by the United States Navy.
是的，我对此非常感激。我实际上在我的博士论文中也写到了这点。你知道，我非常感激。我认为他们支持那种研究是难以置信的。他们是想带你去美国制造武器吗？不，不，不，完全不是。我来美国是为了一位教授工作，他最近刚刚去世，享年100岁和101岁。不是的，我是得到了美国海军的支持。
It was a fellowship at University of Pennsylvania. But I remember in my first interview with some of the teachers, professors, that I am talking to them about the foundations of quantum mechanics. And the guy says to me, let me give you an interesting problem. You have a ping pong ball. But instead of being a classical ping pong ball, it's a quantum one. Could you tell me what heights will it bounce? I had no idea what to do. I had no sense that you could turn all this knowledge into something implementable, practical and so on. So it was quite a struggle the first year. So you had theoretical understanding? Yes, not experimental understanding. Right, yes, or empirical and so on. I didn't know how to calculate things very well. Yeah, I didn't think it was good at math. It was good. Yeah, math understanding the math is a different thing between understanding math. And you know, you learn that. I had four years of graduate school and got my PhD in physics. So obviously I learned how to do it. But what I'm saying is that I have this very, very vague theoretical understanding of what the world worked, but not really practical. You know, I didn't have it in my fingertips. That's what you learn when you go to graduate school, as you know yourself. So that's one thing to learn about the brain as an undergraduate, but in graduate school is where I learned how to slice brain, stain brain, trace connections, record from neurons. And it's a whole other business to get your hands dirty in the thing. Absolutely, absolutely. The same thing for me. Yeah, I take in courses and discovering what you like and dislike.
我在宾夕法尼亚大学获得了一个奖学金。不过，我记得第一次面试时和一些老师、教授谈话，我正在和他们讨论量子力学的基础问题。然后其中有个教授给我出了一个有趣的问题。他说：“你面前有一个乒乓球，但它不是经典物理意义上的乒乓球，而是一个量子乒乓球。你能告诉我它会弹跳到什么高度吗？”当时我完全不知道该怎么解决这个问题。我没有意识到可以把这些理论知识转化为实际应用。因此，第一个年头我过得非常艰难。你有理论上的理解，但没有实验和实际操作的经验，是吗？对，就是这样。我不知道如何进行计算，也觉得自己的数学不够好。理解数学和实际运用数学是两回事。后来通过四年的研究生学习，我获得了物理学博士学位，所以显然我掌握了这些技能。我的意思是，我对世界的理解非常模糊，仅停留在理论层面，并不实际。你知道的，研究生阶段会真正让你掌握这些技能。就像学习大脑一样，在本科时了解大脑的基本知识，而在研究生阶段，我才学会如何切大脑、染色、追踪连接以及记录神经元的活动。这些都是需要动手去实践的。我也是这样，通过选课和探索，发现自己喜爱和不喜爱的领域。
I was a little bit bound to my professor because he was the one who gave me the fellowship, but I didn't like what he did, which was always very problematic. It was funny. He sort of became his try to become my surrogate father. But on the other hand, intellectually, I always felt that he was not quite there. I mean, he was very famous. Sure. It's a member of the National Academy. He was not, but he was very famous, very famous. But I always felt that there was a lack of depth into what we were doing. It was not just him. It was just a solid state physics. It was a very famous, you know, Mary Gellman, who had tall contempt for solid state physics. He used to call it squalish state physics. Yeah, for those who don't know, Mary Gellman will get to Mary later because I had the interesting experience of meeting him as a child, but he discovered the Quark. He won the Nobel Prize in many ways is considered at least as superb of physicists as fine men, maybe better.
我对我的教授有点依赖，因为他是给我提供奖学金的人，但我不喜欢他的一些做法，总是很有问题。不过，有趣的是，他试图成为我的代理父亲。但是从学术上来说，我总觉得他不太行。尽管他确实很有名，是国家科学院的成员，但在我们进行的研究中，我总觉得缺乏深度。不过，这不仅仅是他的原因，还因为固态物理学领域本身存在问题。著名的物理学家默里·盖尔曼对固态物理学有高度鄙视，他习惯称之为"污秽态物理学"。顺便说一下，默里·盖尔曼是发现夸克的人，并因此获得了诺贝尔奖。很多人认为他的物理学成就至少不输于费曼，甚至更胜一筹。
Yeah, lesser known, but among physicists, you know, would evoke great fear in everybody. We'll get to Mary in a little bit. So did you enjoy graduate school? Yes, but it was incredibly hard. Very hard. The first year in Toba. And also personally, I was very lonely. You know, I say I was transplanted into a whole different world. Philadelphia is not a city. I would recommend to many people to live in. I escaped every weekend to New York and my professor was always upset about that. And you went from being pretty well off financially to basically having no money. I had no money. I lived on very little money as a matter of fact. Yes. My parents, my father felt that, okay, this is what you're going to do. You're going to survive on this. They paid for it. Take it once a year to go back to visit. And it was incredibly nice and soothing to be back, to be taken care of and everything else, you know, the life in the family. And then going back again to Philadelphia and the reality of just being a student. Unlike many people, that, and foreign students that were in with me and other places, I did not enjoy. I mean, it was quite a cultural adventure for me to meet people from all over the world. You learn what they had. I became very close to a Japanese postdoc. A very interesting man. But I was quite miserable. And so this was in the mid 60s? Yes. Yes. Late 60s. Yes. I did not like my life there at all. I mean, I lived for four years. I didn't have a single girlfriend or anything. I, you know, I dated and so on. But I just felt that I was transplanted into an environment that I didn't like. Okay. And that's, yeah, on top of that, my conflict with my advisor was not serious because they were not overt, but they were there all the time. That can be tough. For those listening, the relationship to your graduate advisor is a potentially wonderful, potentially hazardous one because they exert enormous control over your future. Not just through letters of recommendation, but opportunities and opportunities. And I got lucky in that sense.
好的，有些是比较鲜为人知的事情，但在物理学家中却让人感到恐惧。我们稍后会聊到Mary。那么，你喜欢研究生院的生活吗？是的，但非常艰难，特别难。第一年在Toba。我个人来说，也非常孤独。我觉得自己被移植到了一个完全不同的世界。费城不是一个我会推荐很多人去居住的城市。我每个周末都逃到纽约，我的教授对此总是很不满。而且，我从经济上比较宽裕的生活过渡到了几乎没有钱。我真的没有钱，实际上我靠很少的钱生活。是的，我的父母，我的父亲觉得，好吧，这就是你要做的，你得在这种情况下生存。他们一年付一次钱让我回去探亲。而且回去的时候感觉特别好，令人感到安慰，毕竟有家人的照顾。然后我又回到了费城，面对作为一个学生的现实。不像和我在一起的许多外籍学生，我并不喜欢。我遇见了来自世界各地的人，这对我来说是一次很大的文化冒险，我学到了他们所拥有的东西。我和一位日本博士后关系非常密切，他是个很有趣的人。但是我很痛苦。这是在60年代中期？是的，后期。是的。我一点也不喜欢那里的生活。我在那里生活了四年，没有一个女朋友之类的。我约过会，但是我觉得自己被移植到了一个我不喜欢的环境中。此外，我和导师的冲突并不严重，因为它们不是公开的，但始终存在。那确实很难。对于正在听的人来说，和你的研究生导师的关系可能会很美好，也可能会很危险，因为他们对你的未来有着巨大的控制权。不仅通过推荐信，还有机会和机会。在这方面我很幸运。
You were very lucky. Yes. My advice was the kind of person that if you went out to dinner with him, he ordered for you. Are you kidding me? I'm not kidding. He was that kind of guy. He would take the whole group to a Chinese restaurant. And before you said, I don't like this, he just ordered. Once he took me for a whole weekend to his summer house to finish a paper. I couldn't finish a paper. And it was a mess. And he, and he started was there. She was 16 or 17. And she said, are you two going to talk physics? I was going to say, no, let's go for a walk. That's all we're going to do. But the physics consisted of him regurgitating, whatever we were doing. I mean, I remember I was so miserable looking at my watch, seeing how the heck do I get out of here? I didn't have a car. So I was sort of his prisoner from Friday to Sunday night. So it was hard for me. I never really felt that happy.
你真幸运。是的。我的导师就是那种如果你和他一起去吃饭，他会替你点菜的人。你在开玩笑吗？我没有开玩笑，他就是那种人。他会带整个团队去中餐馆，然后在你说不喜欢之前，他就已经点好菜了。有一次他带我去他的夏季别墅待了整整一个周末，为了完成一篇论文。我当时无法完成论文，情况很糟。他在那里，他的女儿也在，她当时大概16或17岁。她问我们是不是要谈物理，我本想说不，我们光走走就好了。但所谓的物理讨论其实就是他不断重复我们在做的事情。我记得我当时很沮丧，不停地看表，想着怎么从那儿逃出来。我没有车，所以从周五到周日晚上我都像是他的囚徒。对我来说，这很难受，我从未真正地感觉到快乐。
On the other hand, I had no other options. I had no other options at that time. Okay. So, but then as soon as I graduated, I got out. So I was just thinking about how different your graduate school experience was from mine. I, you know, I delighted in my advisor. Yes. She was amazing. Fantastic people. Yeah. I got lucky. And I got a lot of that from you, which was to, for those of you who don't know, I left a program at Berkeley, which everyone thought I was insane. Insane to leave Berkeley to go to Davis. That was my choice. But I remember what you said. You said, how big is your incoming class at Davis? Right? Because by all standard criteria, Berkeley is the better institution. Davis is great, but Berkeley's considered exceptionally strong. And I said, there are three of us. And you said, well, either you're making the best decision of your life or the worst mistake of your life. And then I think you asked me what was driving the decision. I said, well, there's this person there. Her name is Barbara Chapman. And she just seems to be working on things that if I don't work on these problems, I'm going to regret it. And I can't imagine working on anything else. And he said, go for it, which I really appreciate because any, any parent, if I were a parent and my kid said, I'm going to leave Berkeley and go to Davis halfway through a PhD and start again. I think I probably would have bought.
另一方面，当时我没有其他选择。没有其他选择。于是， 一毕业我就赶紧离开了。我一直在想你的研究生经历和我的有多么不同。我非常欣赏我的导师。是的，她非常出色。真是了不起的人。我很幸运，也从你那里得到了很多启发。对于那些还不知道的人，我离开了伯克利的一个项目，这让所有人都觉得我疯了。疯了才会放弃伯克利去戴维斯上学。这是我的选择。不过我记得你说的话，你问我戴维斯的新生班有多大？因为从所有标准来看，伯克利是更好的学校。戴维斯也不错，但伯克利公认非常强。我说，我们有三个人。你说，好吧，要么你在做一生中最好的决策，要么是在犯最大的错误。接着你问我做这个决定的驱动因素是什么。我说，有一个名字叫芭芭拉·查普曼的人。她似乎在研究一些让我觉得如果不去做会后悔的事情，而且我无法想象去做其他工作。你说，那就去吧，我真的很感谢你的支持。如果我是一个父母，而我的孩子说他要离开伯克利，半路转到戴维斯重新开始读博。我估计我也会犹豫。
Well, Barbara also played a very, very nice supportive emotional role in your life. I mean, it was obvious that she had tremendous preference for you. Yeah. You would like her son in many ways. I smile and well up a little bit only because well, she passed away young, but she's just an amazing person. So I feel very blessed for that. That wasn't your experience with your advisor. So during that time, I did want to ask about this. I asked about it being the mid to late 60s because it was the counterculture movement. Yes. Yeah. Right. And one thing that people should know about you, I'll just offer this up, is that in the entire time I've known you, which is a while now, you've been very clear. Like you never had any interest in recreational drugs. No. Never did them. No. Even though that was super common. I've never seen you have more than a glass of wine. Yes. You've never been drunk in your life. And you don't like football despite being from Argentina. It's, it occurred to me on the drive over. Like, like peer pressure is just not something that impacts you. You're not going to do something because people around you are doing it.
好吧，芭芭拉在你的生活中扮演了一个非常非常美好的情感支持角色。我的意思是，很明显她对你有极大的偏爱。是的，你在许多方面就像她的儿子。我微笑并有一点感动，只是因为她去世得很早，但她是一个了不起的人。所以我为此感到非常幸运。这与你的导师的经历不同。所以在那段时间，我确实想问这件事。我提到60年代中期到后期，因为那是反文化运动时期。是的。人们应该知道一件关于你的事情，我想说一下，就是自从我认识你以来——也有一段时间了——你一直非常清楚。你对娱乐性毒品从来没有兴趣。没有。你从没碰过那些东西。没有。即使这些在当时非常普遍。我从未见过你喝超过一杯酒。是的。你一生中从未醉过。尽管你来自阿根廷，但你不喜欢足球。我在开车过来的路上想到，来自周围人的压力对你根本没有影响。你不会因为周围的人在做某件事而去做它。
Well, no, you're absolutely right. I always felt this sense of uniqueness or whatever. And, but I became very humble because of it. I'm not arrogant. It's not that I feel that others are worse and so on. But yes, when I came to the United States, there was something, there was a decision I had to make, which is, I remember explicitly thinking about it. It was the first time that I was beyond the control of my parents and family and the social environment in which I was in Argentina.
嗯，你说得完全对。我一直觉得自己有某种独特性之类的，但这让我变得非常谦逊。我并不自大，也不是觉得别人不如我。不过，是的，当我来到美国时，有一件事情让我必须做出决定。我记得我明确地思考过这件事。那是我第一次完全脱离父母、家庭以及在阿根廷的社会环境的控制。
So you could do whatever you wanted. And I was not the only one who came. There were three or four brilliant mathematicians and physicists that came with me. And I saw them within a year just losing it all. They never, one of them never graduated. They got into drugs. They got, they moved to the village in New York and they decided that that was the life they wanted to have. Problem is that I'm 10 years on, what are you doing? Getting into being an old hippie is not that interesting.
所以你可以做任何你想做的事情。而且，我并不是唯一来这里的人。当时有三四个出色的数学家和物理学家和我一起来。我看到他们在一年内就失去了一切。其中一个人甚至没能毕业。他们开始涉足毒品，搬到了纽约的某个村庄，并决定那就是他们想要的生活方式。问题是，十年过去了，你在做什么？变成一个老嬉皮士并不是那么有趣的事情。
So I really had that notion at that time that I needed to be very disciplined. And I had to internalize a set of values and to ask myself what I want and what I don't want. And so, yes, indeed, I used to go to parties. To me, it was quite a surprise. In New York, Philadelphia, people were smoking pot and also some other incredible things, getting drunk and so forth. It was something that I would say, no, thank you. And that was it. And I felt quite okay with it.
所以当时我真的有那种想法，我需要非常自律。我必须内化一套价值观，并问自己我想要什么、不想要什么。确实，我以前是去过一些聚会的。让我感到惊讶的是，在纽约、费城，人们在抽大麻，还有一些让我难以置信的事情，比如喝醉等。我会直接拒绝说“不，谢谢”。对此我觉得挺好的。
And I never felt the need to satisfy a group of people that were like this in order to be included. There's only one person that I've ever met in my entire life now that I'm 49. I can say things like, now that I'm 49, who has never been drunk, never done drugs. Basically, it has never really had a sip of alcohol except for once.
我从未觉得需要迎合这样一群人以融入其中。我现在已经49岁了，才遇到过一个这样的人。我可以说一些像“现在我49岁了”这样的话，这个人从未喝醉过，从未吸过毒。基本上，除了有一次，几乎从未碰过酒。
And that's Rick Rubin, my good friend who's elected. By all standards is probably the greatest music producer of all time across a dozen different genres, not just rock and roll, but classical country, all this. And once asked, Rick, you worked in music where drugs and alcohol are everywhere, or at least used to be. And he just said, yeah, it never really interested me. I could be around it, but not participate in it. And so the two of you are the only people I know that have ever had that kind of relationship to what's going on around you where you don't feel pulled into it.
这是里克·鲁宾，我的好朋友，他是被选中的人。按所有标准来看，他可能是历史上最伟大的音乐制作人，不仅仅是在摇滚领域，还有古典、乡村等十几种不同的音乐类型。我曾问过他，"里克，你在一个毒品和酒精随处可见的音乐环境中工作，或者至少曾经是这样的环境中。你怎么看？"他只是说，“嗯，我对这些其实没有太大兴趣。我可以在这些东西的环境中，但并不参与。"所以，你们两个人是我认识的唯一能够在这种环境中不被影响的人。
I also didn't understand, I mean, for instance, the role of drugs and alcohol in young people, I was a graduate student. To a large extent, plays a role of relaxation and getting real of stress and anxiety and so on. To me, it was very interesting that people would actually come sometimes to my place and ask, you know, do you have something to smoke or why? Because I'm nervous. So whatever, you know, deal with your state of anxiety, but you don't have to drink to do that.
我也不太理解，比如说，年轻人中药物和酒精的作用。当我还是个研究生时，这些东西在很大程度上起到放松、缓解压力和焦虑等作用。我觉得很有趣的是，有时候人们会来我家问我有没有什么东西可以抽，因为他们感到紧张。所以，怎样处理你的焦虑状态是你的选择，但你不一定非得通过喝酒来解决。
And I was always a little bit also concerned about my brain. I mean, I was afraid that these things would just take me over the edge of the rails. So I just, but I think I was also, I need to say this, I was also rather judgmental of people who did it at that time. And it was a way by being judgmental, by saying this is wrong, then I was able to stay on my track. Okay, do they have much more understanding? I mean, I hear people and that's what, you know, it works for them. It's fine, although I still don't like it.
我一直对自己的精神状态有点担心。我害怕这些事情会让我失去理智。同时，我也必须承认，当时我对那些参与其中的人持有相当批判的态度。通过批判他们，把它看作是错误的，我才能够坚持走自己的路。现在，我听到一些人说这对他们有效，他们因此过得很好，虽然我依然不喜欢这种做法。
And it was even worse when we came to California because that here everything was going on, not just drugs and everything else. So, well, let's talk about that. But not that specifically right off the bat. So you finished your PhD. Yeah. You could have become done a postdoc become a professor. I was playing with that. I was playing with that.
当我们来到加州时，情况更糟，因为这里发生了一切，不仅仅是毒品和其他事情。那么，我们来谈谈这个问题。但一开始先不具体谈这个。你完成了博士学位。是的。你本可以去做博士后研究，成为一名教授。我有考虑过这个，我有考虑过这个。
I wanted to go to, my dream was to go to Cambridge University in England, not only because the Cavendish laboratory was fantastic. There was a whole thing on DNA. I mean, Crick was there and so on. So I thought that perhaps I would just start, you know, inhaling some of those papers. You wanted to get into biology? Well, I was interested. I mean, because I read the famous book by Watson, you know, the double helix and I couldn't sleep. I mean, I read it one night and say it's incredible what is kind of amazing book. Amazing book. Yes.
我曾梦想去英国的剑桥大学，不仅仅因为卡文迪许实验室非常出色。那里对DNA的研究非常深入，克里克也在那里等等。所以我想，也许我可以开始学习一些相关的论文。你是想进入生物学领域吗？嗯，我对生物学很感兴趣。因为我读了沃森那本著名的书《双螺旋》，让我整晚都睡不着。我一晚上读下来，觉得这本书太不可思议了，真是一本了不起的书。
So I said, oh, the whole thing is becoming like physics. It's no longer all these complicated names and so on. Well, it's crystallography, which is, you know, I mean, physics and chemistry are so interesting. So it's boring because you have, it's like botany. You have to learn all these crystals. I'm just joking because the spaghetti model folks, as we call them, the crystallographers are probably covering their eyes right now. But that's all right. They love what they do and thank goodness for it.
所以我说，哦，整件事情变得像物理学一样了。不再是以前那些复杂的名字和内容。嗯，现在是结晶学，你知道的，我是说，物理和化学都很有趣。所以感觉无聊，因为就像植物学那样，你得学各种晶体。我只是在开玩笑，因为我们称之为“意大利面模型”的人，也就是结晶学家们，可能现在正在捂着眼睛。但没关系，他们热爱他们的工作，这真是太好了。
No, no, of course. Because they design novel drug pockets and receptors. I mean, they're doing some cool stuff. So I thought that being at Cambridge was okay. I mean, you would suffer from, you know, not even heating in the rooms and so on. But then what happens was, I mean, you know, I met your mother and then, you know, she brought a little bit of reality into my life and said, you know, well, she said, you know, it's time for you to graduate time because I was just staying there as a PhD student. You know, it was so fine. You know, okay, the money was a problem, but I got to live like this.
当然，当然，没问题。因为他们在设计新型药物结合位点和受体。我是说，他们做的事情很酷。所以我觉得在剑桥待着还不错。虽然你可能得忍受像房间里没有暖气之类的问题。但后来发生了什么呢，就是我遇到了你的母亲，然后她把一些现实带入了我的生活。她说，是时候毕业了，因为我当时只是作为一个博士生待在那里。我觉得一切都很好，虽然钱是个问题，但我可以这样生活。
You were mom in New York. I met your mother in New York. Yes. And she was, she was, she had her, you know, feet on the ground and said, you know, it's time for you to graduate and so on. And then she actually was right. And so I decided to look for a job. And my, my professor wasn't necessarily letting me go. He wanted me to stay as a postdoc with him. Right. You know, this is something people don't often understand is that if a student or postdoc is very good, the advisors are de-incentivized to move them along to their job. Right. But it's a tricky game because you want the support of your advisor, but oftentimes your advisor, if you're very good, they want to keep you. Yes.
你是在纽约的母亲。我在那里见到了你的妈妈。是的，她非常脚踏实地，并对我说，是时候毕业了，等等。事实上她说得对。所以我决定开始找工作了。而我的教授并不太愿意放我离开，他希望我能留下来当他的博士后。人们常常不了解这一点：如果一位学生或博士后非常优秀，他们的导师可能不太愿意放他们去找工作。因为这是一个微妙的平衡：你需要导师的支持，但如果你很优秀，导师往往希望你留下来。是的。
So, so there was also another aspect at that time. By then, I started thinking that I wanted to live a much more comfortable life. I mean, I come from a family that lived a very comfortable life and I wanted that very badly. And so I started, you know, looking for jobs and so on. My advisor was not too keen to, you know, tell me what to do. So instead of going, I could have gone for a postdoc to a couple of places, but I wanted to be a little more independent. And I discovered that there were research institutions like IBM and Xerox in the West Coast and so on. There were, you know, people could do science, you know, good science and, you know, battle-apps was the most famous one of all. That was in the East Coast. In the East Coast. I went to battle-apps for an interview and I felt that they were running there like a Russian internment camp.
所以，那时候还有另一个方面的因素。到那时，我已经开始考虑想要过上更加舒适的生活。我的意思是，我来自一个生活非常舒适的家庭，我非常渴望能继续那种生活。因此，我开始找工作等等。我的导师对于告诉我该做什么并不太热心。所以本来我可以去几个地方做博士后研究，但我想要更独立一些。我发现西海岸有像IBM和施乐这样的研究机构，人们可以在那里做科学研究，而Bell实验室是其中最著名的一个，在东海岸。我去Bell实验室面试时，感觉他们那里像一个俄罗斯的拘留营。
I mean, it was unbelievable. You were, they were, we were 10 of us and, you know, they took us around and people were taking notes of what you were saying and asking and so on, telling us that was an elite place. It was an elite place. So East Coast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. East Coast institutions. I mean, it makes sense to me now why haven't been raised in the Bay Area that East Coast institutions are and I are just never going to mix because there's, they love tradition. They love hierarchy and they love history, whereas the West Coast. Well, it's all about the startup, the IPO, what's about what happened in the last three years and what's going to happen in the next 10 years. Right.
这太不可思议了。你在那儿，他们在那儿，我们十个人在那儿。你知道，他们带我们参观，人们在记录你说的话和提的问题，还告诉我们那是个很高级的地方。确实是个高级的地方，特别有东海岸的风格。对，东海岸的机构。我现在明白了，为什么我在湾区长大，而东海岸的机构和我总是合不来，因为他们喜欢传统、等级制度和历史，而西海岸嘛，关注的是创业公司、首次公开募股，关心的是过去三年发生了什么以及未来十年会发生什么。对吧。
Well, on the other hand, there is something nice to be said about the European model of universities in the sense that the biggest contrast, you say this, I remember, I, you know, when you gave when professors came to college, my son, they were wearing suit and tie and the University of Pennsylvania and Ivy League school and so on. I came to Stanford. I went to the first colloquium and the students were coming in shorts with their dogs into the auditorium. I couldn't believe it. I mean, it was, it was such an incredible, you know, change, cultural change.
好的，从另一个角度来看，欧洲大学模式也有其独特的优点。让我印象深刻的是，你说过，当教授们来我儿子所在的大学讲课时，他们都穿着西装打着领带，比如在宾夕法尼亚大学这种常春藤盟校。而我去了斯坦福大学，参加第一次学术研讨会时，学生们穿着短裤，带着他们的狗走进礼堂。我简直不敢相信，这真是一个惊人的文化差异。
Yeah. You know, smart. Not smart. I mean, incredibly smart, incredibly smart. They know that about that. So in any event, I, I discovered something which historically became incredibly important, although I was marginally involved in it, which was Xerox Corporation having invented a copier, decided that they were going to get into the information age and they decided to establish a new research center in Palo Alto next to Stanford, where they would recruit people that would work on this whole thing, computers and information and physics and so on. And I came in and the guys, you know, whoever interview me, they said, you know, this is exactly the place for you. So that's what I did. And the interesting thing was that, well, I was there doing what I thought was interesting things. There was a whole group of people, very small, that invented a personal computer. Steve Jobs saw it and built the first Mac out of it.
好的，你知道，聪明。不聪明。我是说，极其聪明，极其聪明。他们知道这点。不管怎样，我发现了一件在历史上变得极其重要的事情，尽管我在其中的参与有限。那就是施乐公司发明了复印机后，决定要进入信息时代，他们决定在靠近斯坦福的帕洛阿尔托建立一个新的研究中心，招募人们去研究计算机、信息、物理等等。我去了，负责面试我的人跟我说，这正是适合你的地方。所以我去了。有趣的是，当我在那里做我认为有趣的事情时，有一小群人发明了个人电脑。史蒂夫·乔布斯看到了，并用它打造了第一台Mac电脑。
I had a classmate in high school, Becca Kanara. Yes. I remember because she wrote a Vespa to school. Yeah. Her mother was involved in that. And her mom was involved in creating the, it was a Dell. A Dell. Yes. A Dell Goldberg. A Dell Goldberg in developing the ability to move what appeared to be pages on the screen. Objectarian to languages. I had no idea that was going on. I'll be honest with you. I mean, it was going on the second floor. They were all hippie-like. I mean, it was a scandal of the life that they had there. It was the 70s. And still, the Bay Area was not what it's now. I mean, everybody went to Risades, you know, take long lunches. And there was a lot of stuff on drugs and so on.
我高中时有个同学，叫Becca Kanara。我记得她，因为她骑一辆Vespa摩托车上学。是的，她妈妈也参与其中。她妈妈参与创造了一个东西，是一个叫阿黛尔的东西。一个叫阿黛尔·戈德堡的人在开发一种能力，可以在电脑屏幕上移动看起来像是页面的东西。面向对象的编程语言。我以前完全不知道这些事情，说实话。我是说，这些事情都在二楼进行。他们的生活方式很像嬉皮士。在那里过的生活有些让人震惊。那是70年代，而那时候的湾区还不像现在这样。大家经常去Risades，花很长时间吃午饭，还有很多与毒品相关的事情。
Can I ask a question about that? So Xerox Park was this incredible place. I remember going there when I was a kid to your lab. Actually, one of my earliest recollections was you took me into your engine voices. Experimental lab. You told me to pick a piece of fruit. There was a bowl of fruit. I picked the banana. You took the banana. You peeled it and you dipped it into liquid nitrogen. And then you told me to throw it on the ground and we shattered the banana. And I thought, that was like the coolest thing ever. I remember that. So that was happening. But you mentioned the stuff that was happening about developing computer interfaces. And that indeed jobs borrowed or stole mostly because parked in protecting the intellectual property well. I mean, he didn't do it illegally. I mean, he saw it. They basically gave it away. Right. It was he gave it away. Right. Xerox was thinking that, you know, copious, what are their future? That's it.
我可以问一个关于那件事的问题吗？所以Xerox Park是一个非常了不起的地方。我记得我小时候去过你的实验室。其实，我最早的回忆之一是你带我进入了你们的语音引擎实验室。你让我从一碗水果中选一个，我选了香蕉。然后你把香蕉剥开，浸入液氮中。接着你让我把香蕉扔在地上，结果香蕉碎裂了。我当时觉得这太酷了，我一直记得这件事。这些事情都在发生。你提到过他们正在开发计算机界面的事情。实际上，乔布斯从那里借用或借鉴了很多东西，主要是因为Xerox Park并没有很好地保护其知识产权。我的意思是，他并没有违法，他看到了这些东西，他们基本上把它给了他。对的，Xerox当时认为复印是他们的未来。
But I also recall, because I overheard the conversations between you and mom when I was a kid, perhaps, that there were, it was pretty wild at Park. Like there was this whole like the room with the bean bags. People were taking LSD and other drugs. That wasn't your scene. No, no, no, no. I was in the physics lab and we can talk later a little bit about it. Which in voice was a very, very interesting collaborator of mine and so on. We had a lot of fun, but not on that label. As a matter of fact, we were considered very square people, you know, doing what we were doing. I mean, this is a group of people that were truly they I mean books have been written on this whole class of people that became really the embryo of what Silicon Valley became. There were brilliant people trying to do new things. They held their own K. There were many of them. Did you ever want to get involved in that stuff?
我也记得，因为我小时候听到你和妈妈之间的谈话，大概是这样的：在Park的时候情况很疯狂。有一个房间里全是豆袋椅，人们在里面使用LSD和其他毒品。但那不是你的圈子。没有，没有，我在物理实验室，我们以后可以多聊聊。这方面我有一个非常有趣的合作者等等。我们当时玩得很开心，但不是那种类型的开心。事实上，我们被视为非常按部就班的人，做我们自己的事。实际上，这是一群真正有才华的人，书籍已经描述过这些人成为了硅谷的雏形。他们是尝试做新事情的聪明人。他们有自己的K社群，其中不乏这样的人。你有没有想过参与进去？
I used to see them as so I'll tell you how I got involved. The head of the group, Bob Taylor, a very charismatic man who was responsible for the development of the personal computer. He was the head of the computer science lab. He once heard that I played ping pong. So he started challenging me to ping pong. So we used to play ping pong, you know. And the conversations were so odd because I would say, oh, you do computer science. I have some mathematical problems. I would like some guys in your lab to help me. He said, we are not. We are not the kind of computer scientists you imagine, like at IBM with a white coat fixing machines and solving math. We want to revolutionize the world. We want to change the way you think. He used to say that to me. And I sort of understood a little bit of it, but quite frankly, he seemed totally out of whatever he was doing. This is why when Mark Andreessen, founder and Netscape, et cetera, A16Z, now when he was sitting in the very seat you're sitting in, here he described as this notion of wild ducks that at companies you have these people that are small groups of people that are really kind of wild and outrageous and really testing the outer limits of what's possible. Do you think they serve an important role? Tremendous.
我曾经将它们视为......让我告诉你我是如何参与的。这个团体的负责人是Bob Taylor，他是一个非常有魅力的人，负责开发个人计算机。他是计算机科学实验室的负责人。有一次他听说我会打乒乓球，于是就开始挑战我打乒乓球。所以我们经常打乒乓球。我们之间的对话非常奇怪，因为我会说，哦，你做计算机科学的。我有一些数学问题，希望你实验室里的同事能帮帮我。他说，我们不是你想象中的那种计算机科学家，不像IBM那些穿白大褂修机器、解决数学问题的人。我们想要颠覆世界，改变你的思维方式。他常常这样对我说。我多少理解了一点，但说实话，他似乎完全沉浸在自己的事情中。所以当Mark Andreessen，Netscape的创始人之一，提到在公司里有这样一群人——他们是小群体，充满野性和大胆，极力挑战可能性的边界。你认为他们发挥重要作用吗？我认为作用非常大。
Tremendous. And I was a little bit of that in my field at that time. I was the first one to realize that once I saw these machines, I could use them for doing things even in physics that no one could do. And the kinds of fields that I chose to work on were totally out of what people were doing at Xerox or IBM and so on. I think that these people are essential. Now, the question is, what does a company or a university do with those ideas and so on? Xerox lost it completely. I mean, they showed them the stuff and there's a whole book that had been written about it. Well, one thing that I think I'm realizing now I inherited from you consciously or unconsciously is that, well, I've been more of a risk-taker with various aspects of my life than I probably should have been, but that I've always enjoyed being near people who are really pushing the boundary on something. Like my love of skateboarding, but not just skateboarding, but our friend, anyway, jumping the Great Wall of China, building Mega Ramps in his yard. I knew I wasn't going to do that, but there's something about being adjacent to people like that that changes the way that I've approached things that were more pedestrian, to make them less pedestrian. And maybe we'll return to this because I think that being around people who are real Mavericks and real iconoclass can be very beneficial, but it doesn't mean that you have to jump in and do what they're doing.
太棒了。在那个时候，我在我的领域里也有一点这样的感觉。我是第一个意识到，当我看到这些机器时，可以用它们来完成物理学中无人能做到的事情。我选择研究的领域完全超出了当时人们在施乐或IBM等公司所做的事情。我认为这样的人才是不可或缺的。现在的问题是，公司或大学会如何处理这些想法等。施乐完全错过了这个机会，关于这点已经有一本书详细描述。现在，我意识到，从你这里有意或无意地承袭了一点，那就是——在生活的各个方面，我一直都是一个冒险者，可能比我应该的更多。但我一直喜欢接近那些真正突破界限的人。比如我对滑板运动的热爱，不仅仅是滑板，还有我们的一位朋友，他曾计划跳过长城，在自己院子里建造巨型坡道。我知道自己不会去做这些，但与这样的人为邻改变了我处理一些较为平常事情的方式，让它们变得不再平常。或许我们会再谈这个，因为我认为和真正的创新者、独行者在一起可以带来很多好处，但这并不意味着你必须去做他们正在做的事情。
Well, I decided, I want to adhere to take huge risks, and as a matter of fact, my first piece of work after I got my job at Xerox Park, which was supposed to work on some solid-state physics or whatever, was I had this notion, this fantasy of Einstein in the patent office. So I would start working on things that were crazy. There was a whole notion in physics, which is called Tachyon's particles that are fast in the speed of light. How do you say it? Tachyon's. Tachyon. They say from the word Tachyon's, which means fast, swift means particles that are faster than the speed of light, which is impossible. But some physicists were playing with that idea. And I became very interested in that. As a matter of fact, my first paper out of graduate school was on Tachyon's, and I had the pride of getting the paper accepted in the top physics journal. Is physics review letters? Physics letters, yes. And I remember my cousin Hector sending me a notice, and he was saying, well, now I see the road to perdition, he said. But I was so proud of it. I really thought that I was doing something incredible. And he had nothing to do with the work I was doing on a daily basis. And I published several papers on things that were very important to me. You have a lot of single author papers. Yes. This is something that is especially rare in biology, but you have a lot of single author papers. I was very proud of that. Yes.
好吧，我决定我要勇于冒险。事实上，当我在施乐帕克找到了工作后，本来应该研究一些固态物理或其他东西，但我有一个想法，一个关于爱因斯坦在专利局工作的幻想。所以我开始研究一些疯狂的事情。在物理学中有一个概念叫做快子，指的是比光速还快的粒子。快子，这个词意为快速、迅速，指的是比光速还快的粒子，这在理论上是不可能的，但一些物理学家对这个想法进行了研究。我对此产生了极大的兴趣。事实上，我从研究生院毕业后的第一篇论文就是关于快子的，我非常自豪地看到这篇论文被顶级物理学期刊接受，是《物理评论快报》还是《物理快报》？我记不清了。我记得我的表弟赫克托给我发来通知，说“我现在看到了通往堕落之路”，但我为此感到非常自豪。我真的以为我在做一些了不起的事情，尽管它与我每天的工作无关。我还发表了几篇对我来说非常重要的论文，而且有很多是我独立完成的。在生物学领域，这种独立作者的论文尤其罕见，但我有很多这样的论文，我为此感到非常自豪。
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct ratios, but no sugar. We should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function. In fact, even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree. It's also important that you're not just hydrated, but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios.
我想稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商之一，Element。Element 是一种电解质饮料，它包含了你需要的一切，而没有你不需要的成分。也就是说，它含有正确比例的电解质、钠、镁和钾，但不含糖。我们都应该知道，适当的水分补充对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。事实上，即使是轻微的脱水也会显著降低你的认知和身体表现。同样重要的是，你不仅要补充水分，还要摄取足量比例正确的电解质。
Drinking a packet of element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that your body is in the right way. It's very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes. To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both, I dissolve one packet of element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning. And I drink that basically first thing in the morning. I'll also drink a packet of element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
将一包元素溶解在水中饮用，非常简单就能确保你的身体处于正确状态。这能让你轻松获得足够的水分和电解质。为了确保我摄入适量的水分和电解质，我每天早晨醒来时，会将一包元素溶解在大约16到32盎司的水中，然后在早上第一时间喝掉。我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时，尤其是在炎热天气里当我大量出汗失去水分和电解质时，再饮用一包元素溶解在水中的饮品。
There are a bunch of different great tasting flavors of element. I like the watermelon. I like the raspberry. I like the citrus. Basically, I like all of them. If you'd like to try element, you can go to drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim an element sample pack with the purchase of any element drink mix. Again, that's drink element spelled L-M-N-T. So it's drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free sample pack. Today's episode is also brought to us by ExpressVPN. ExpressVPN is a virtual private network that keeps your data secure and private. It does that by routing your internet activity through their servers and encrypting it so that no one can see or sell your data.
有多种口味的Element饮品，每一种都非常好喝。我喜欢西瓜味、覆盆子味和柑橘味。基本上，我喜欢所有的味道。如果你想尝试Element饮品，可以访问drinkelement.com/Huberman，在购买任意一种Element饮品混合包时领取一个Element的试用包。再次提醒，Element的拼写是L-M-N-T，所以网址是drinkelement.com/Huberman，领取免费的试用包。
今天的节目还由ExpressVPN赞助。ExpressVPN是一种虚拟专用网络，可以保障您的数据安全和隐私。它通过将您的互联网活动通过其服务器路由并加密，从而确保没有人可以查看或出售您的数据。
Now, I'm familiar with the effects of not securing my data well enough. Several years ago, I had one of my bank accounts hacked and it was a terrible amount of work to have that reversed and for the account to be secured. When that happened, I talked to my friends in the tech community and what they told me was that even though you think your internet connection may be secure, oftentimes it's not, especially if you're using Wi-Fi networks such as those on planes, in hotels, at coffee shops and other public places. Surprisingly, even at home, your data might not be as secure as you think.
现在，我对没有妥善保护我的数据所带来的后果深有体会。几年前，我的一个银行账户被黑客攻击，花费了大量精力才得以恢复并确保账户安全。发生这种情况时，我咨询了技术圈的朋友们，他们告诉我，即便你认为自己的网络连接很安全，实际上往往并非如此，特别是在使用飞机、酒店、咖啡店等公共场所的Wi-Fi网络时。令人惊讶的是，即使在家里，你的数据也可能没有你想象中那么安全。
To make sure that what I described before would never happen to me again, I started using ExpressVPN. The great thing about ExpressVPN is that I don't even notice that it's running. Since the connection it provides is so fast, I have it on my computer and on my phone and I keep it on whenever I'm connected to the internet. With ExpressVPN, I know everything is secure. My web browsing, all my passwords, all my data, and of course anything that's behind an account wall, like a bank account. It can't be tracked and no one can access or steal your data, which is terrific.
为了确保我之前描述的情况不会再发生在我身上，我开始使用ExpressVPN。ExpressVPN的一个很棒的特点是我几乎感觉不到它在运行。因为它提供的连接速度非常快，我把它安装在我的电脑和手机上，并在连接到互联网时一直开启。有了ExpressVPN，我知道一切都是安全的。我的网络浏览、所有密码、所有数据，当然还有任何需要账户登录的内容，比如银行账户等，都是无法被追踪的，也没有人能访问或窃取你的数据，这非常不错。
If you'd like to start protecting your internet activity using ExpressVPN, you can go to expressvpn.com slash Huberman and you can get an extra three months free. Again, that's e-x-p-r-e-s-s-s-vpn.com slash Huberman to get an extra three months free. Can I ask you a question as a slight departure, but it's something I've always wanted to ask you. Feel free to say no if it's not something that could be done in a couple of minutes.
如果你想使用ExpressVPN来保护你的互联网活动，你可以访问expressvpn.com/Huberman，并且可以额外获得三个月的免费服务。再次提醒，这是e-x-p-r-e-s-s-vpn.com/Huberman，可额外获得三个月的免费服务。我可以稍微偏离话题问你一个问题吗？这是我一直想问你的。如果这在几分钟内无法完成，随时可以说不。
So many people here on Stein's name, they think of the hair or they think of relativity. Is it possible to explain relativity in a way that the everyday person can get it a little bit better than they perhaps understand it now? Yes, as a matter of fact, I learned not long ago that Einstein himself wrote a popular book on relativity that seems to be very, very accessible. Now, there are two aspects to relativity. I mean, there are two things that our brains were not made by evolution to understand intuitively. One is relativity and the other one is quantum physics.
这里有很多人一提到斯坦这个名字，就会想到他的头发或是相对论。那么，有可能以一种让普通人能稍微更好理解的方式来解释相对论吗？事实上，我不久前了解到，爱因斯坦自己写过一本关于相对论的通俗书籍，非常容易理解。关于相对论，其实有两个方面：我们的脑袋并不是经过进化来直观理解这两个方面的，一个是相对论，另一个是量子物理。
We know we have intuitions like an animal, for instance, if you see a lion running after a zebra and so on, the lion can actually calculate intuitively the speed at which he can move and so on. We can do the same, but if you start thinking about what happens when you get to near the speed of light, we have no intuition whatsoever. Time almost stops. There are all sorts of complicated things, lengths, contracts. I mean, it's a very complicated set of things, and that's why it's very hard to understand, although the math works.
我们知道我们有像动物一样的直觉。比如，当你看到狮子追逐斑马时，狮子可以凭直觉计算出它能奔跑的速度等等。我们也有类似的能力。然而，当你开始思考接近光速的情况时，我们的直觉就完全不管用了。时间几乎会停止，还有各种复杂的事情，比如长度收缩等。这是一套非常复杂的现象，因此即使数学上可以计算，也很难理解。
Then there is generativity that is even worse because there is some kind of a warping of space time that is responsible for gravitation. But I'll go into that in a second. The other one is quantum physics. Our brains are not only are they are not wired to understand that near the speed of light because no one moves near the speed of light. I mean, we move as speeds that are fairly small compared to the speed of light. Quantum mechanics is at such a microscopic level that is below basically the level of molecules, and molecules, atoms, and inside the atom. So it's very, very hard to visualize, or even understand some of the very counterintuitive ideas like entangled men and also, you know.
然后，还有一种更糟糕的生成性问题，因为引力是由某种时空扭曲所导致的。但我稍后再详细解释这个问题。另一种则是量子物理。我们的脑子并不适合理解接近光速的现象，因为没人能以接近光速的速度移动。我们的移动速度与光速相比非常小。量子力学是研究非常微观的层次，比分子、原子，以及原子内部的层次还要小。所以，要想象甚至理解一些非常反直觉的概念，如量子纠缠等等，是非常困难的。
So relativity can be understood in the sense that you can explain certain things, but people say, well, how can kinetic work like that? And then you have to get into the math. Okay, but I think that I took a course a few years ago in generativity, and I just. I just. I wanted to learn it finally. It's profound, deep. And it makes you feel that this man, I understand, he had a help from a lot of people, but still, it's an incredible thing. I mean, you know, it's on a level of bit of symphonies and Mozart's piano concertos. I mean, it's something that comes into your head, and you're able to do, you know, through a lot of struggle. I mean, it took me years to do that. Okay, so. But it's profound.
所以，相对论可以理解为你可以用它来解释某些事情，但人们会问："运动学怎么能这样运作呢？" 这时候就需要用到数学。不过，我几年前上了一门关于广义相对论的课程，我真的只是想最终学会它。它深刻且深邃，让人觉得这个人（指提出相对论的人）虽然得到很多人的帮助，但仍然是件不可思议的事情。我觉得这就像交响乐和莫扎特的钢琴协奏曲一样，是一种灵感的迸发，但需要经过许多艰辛才能实现。我花了很多年才做到这一点。总之，这真的很深刻。
Now, the question. When you say, can you explain, I mean, the point is Einstein one day discovered that if the speed of light is speed of light, no matter how fast you move, respect to a beam of light, it's still moving at the speed of light, that means that the notion of simultaneity between two events is relative now. So you and I might say, yes, now is one ten, but if you are moving very fast with respect to me, instead of one ten, you'll say something else. Okay, just because time for you and I are not synchronized. And that leads to also some very interesting effects and practical effects, too, because from there comes the idea that mass and energy are the same, from their nuclear weapons came out of that, also some very interesting things, you know, and today, you know, we can even detect gravitational ways that are coming from the almost the beginning of the universe. We can detect that because of those theories. They can calculate. So it's profound. Yes. I mean, Einstein, I think, stands on Newton, too, by the way. I mean, Newton and Einstein, I think they're top people, you know, but they talk to God in a way, as they say. We'll get back to God a little bit later.
好的，现在谈到问题。当你说“你能解释吗？”时，我的意思是，重点在于爱因斯坦有一天发现，如果光速恒定，无论你相对于光束的速度有多快，光仍然以光速运动。这意味着同时发生的两个事件的概念现在是相对的。比如，你我可能都认为现在是一点十分，但如果你相对我运动得非常快，你所看到的时间可能就不是一点十分了。因为你和我的时间并不同步。这导致了一些非常有趣且实际的效应，比如从这个理论中得出了质量和能量是等同的这个观点，从而研制出了核武器，还出现了一些其他非常有趣的东西。今天，我们甚至能检测到几乎来自宇宙开始时的引力波。因为这些理论，我们能够进行这样的计算。这个发现是深远的。我觉得，爱因斯坦是在牛顿的基础上发展出来的。牛顿和爱因斯坦都是科学巨匠，某种意义上说，他们好像与上帝对话过。稍后我们再回到“上帝”的话题。
Yeah, it seems to me that even though it's very hard to grasp, it's worth asking for those of us that don't have an intuitive sense of relativity theory that is starting to, you know, peer into these things a little bit trying to understand them. Do you think that it gives one's mind and ability to, you know, to tap into forms of cognition that we don't normally think about when we're looking at macro mechanics of the world around us? That objects fall down, not up. And, you know, helium balloon goes up. Okay. And you can learn something about helium, but it's all pretty straightforward with just a few simple bullet points. Whereas when you get into quantum mechanics, it challenges the mind in a way that it really feels like for most people, there's a cliff. And we just kind of go, okay, you know, and obviously there's trust there, but for people that are curious about understanding how the really tiny bits of the physical universe linked up with the really big bits of the physical universe, where's the best place to start?
是的，在我看来，尽管理解相对论很困难，但对于那些没有直观感受的人来说，值得去探寻和理解这些东西。你认为这种探索能否让我们的思维能力进入我们在观察周围世界的宏观机制时通常不会想到的认知形式？比如，我们知道物体会往下掉，而不是往上，氦气球会上升。我们可以轻松地通过几个简单的要点来了解氦气。然而，当谈到量子力学时，它以一种给大多数人感觉像是悬崖的方式挑战我们的思维。我们可能会简化为一种信任，但对于那些好奇于理解微观和宏观物理世界如何连接的人来说，应该从哪里开始呢？
Well, okay, you're asking a very, very interesting question, which is, for most of us who are training physics, we learn how to calculate, we learn how to operate with these things. I, you know, I just got a patent on using quantum mechanics for communication and so on. But it is still the puzzle is why does it work the way it works? So what I'm saying is you learn an operational way of doing these things operationally. I don't know what happens in your brain because I have ideas that come out of intuitions, not just formulas and equations. And yet I don't necessarily think I understand deeply why these things are the way they are. They are where they are. And there's no reason why they shouldn't be like that. Our brains, as I said before, you know, they are essentially conformed to understanding macroscopic world, not high speeds and so on.
好的，你提出了一个非常有趣的问题。对于大多数学习物理的人来说，我们学会了如何计算，如何运用这些知识。我最近获得了一项关于利用量子力学进行通信的专利。然而，令人困惑的是，为什么这些东西会以这样的方式运作？我的意思是，你学习了一种操作性的方式来处理这些问题。我不清楚你的大脑中发生了什么，因为我的一些想法来自直觉，而不仅仅是公式和方程。然而，我并不一定认为我深入理解了为什么这些事物是这样存在的，它们的位置为何如此，并没有理由它们不应该这样。正如我之前所说，我们的大脑基本上是为理解宏观世界而设计的，而不是处理高速现象等。
So physicists who work in general activity, I don't can do incredible calculations. Can you tell you what black hole collapsing to another whole black hole would do? And, you know, they're using general activity things. And so they can do it. Now, what it does to your brain that allows you to operationally work with these equations and solve it and have no ideas, it's something I don't understand. Namely, I, for instance, the example that I give about quantum mechanics, that's a very simple one because I talk to a lot of people nowadays that work on this is I can give you two dice. Okay, you know, you just dice. You can go to the Mars and I stay here.
所以，从事广义相对论研究的物理学家，我自己无法进行如此复杂的计算。但他们能够告诉你，一个黑洞坍缩成另一个黑洞会发生什么。他们运用了广义相对论的理论，因此能做到这一点。我不明白的是，这种理论究竟如何在你大脑中起作用，使你能够实际操作这些方程并解决问题。比如，我常举量子力学的例子，这是个很简单的例子，因为我现在和很多研究这方面的人交流过。就像我可以给你两个骰子，然后你可以去火星，而我留在这里。
The dice are, let's assume they are quantum mechanically entangled. I throw my dice. I see three. You got three. And we don't communicate. They're entangled. They go, this is faster than the speed of light. I throw again five. You get five. I do one. You get one. And it's an amazing thing. What is the origin of the entanglement? It's a property of quantum systems that they can get entangled as they were. And somehow, what happens to your system affects mine but doesn't affect it in the sense of signal. No signal.
让我们假设这些骰子是量子力学上纠缠的。我扔出我的骰子，我看到是三，你也是三，我们之间没有交流。因为它们是纠缠的，这个过程比光速还快。我接着扔出五，你也是五。我得到一，你也是一。这真是件神奇的事情。纠缠的起源是什么呢？它是一种量子系统的特性，系统之间可以产生纠缠。某种程度上，你的系统发生的事情会影响我的系统，但不会以信号的方式影响。没有信号的传递。
They're entangled. Now, let me, now, this becomes rather- They're not entangled through other bits of the universe. No, no. They're totally independent. Totally independent. Yes. They're entangled in the sense of quantum mechanically they started like this. You know, there are ways, I mean, there are trivial things. There's a famous example of the socks. Okay, so you take a trip and you took a pair of socks. Let's assume they're blue socks and so on and then you open your bag and you, oh, I forgot one sock. So this is my blue sock.
它们是纠缠的。现在，让我说，这就变得有点——它们不是通过宇宙中的其他部分纠缠在一起的。不，不。它们是完全独立的。完全独立。是的。它们的纠缠是在量子力学的意义上，它们是这样开始的。你知道，有一些方式，我是说，有一些简单的例子。有一个著名的袜子例子。好了，比如说你去旅行，带了一双袜子。假设它们是蓝色的，然后你打开包，发现自己忘带了一只袜子。于是，这就是我的蓝色袜子。
So you know that there is a blue sock at home. So knowing that is a correlation but that's trivial, right? I mean, you can do that with anything. In quantum mechanics, imagine that your look at the sock, but the sock is changing colors all the time. So now you observe it is red. The other one is red. I observe it is green. The other one is green. Okay, randomly. So little bits of the universe are entangled. Well, some people, and I, a friend of mine who's a Buddhist, claims that there is a whole religious or Buddhist voice saying that everything was entangled.
所以你知道家里有一只蓝色的袜子。那么，知道这一点就是一种关联，但这很简单，对吧？我的意思是，这种事可以套用到任何东西上。在量子力学中，想象一下你看着袜子，但袜子一直在变颜色。现在你观察到它是红色的，另一只也是红色的。我观察到它是绿色的，另一只也是绿色的。好吧，这一切都是随机的。所以，宇宙的小部分是纠缠在一起的。有些人，比如我的一个佛教徒朋友，说有一种宗教或佛教的观点认为万物都是纠缠在一起的。
Yes. Originally, all atoms, all electrons, all elementary particles were entangled. Yes, because the universe started very, very tiny and everything was entangled. Okay, so you can imagine that the universe is entangled. So what happens here affects other, but it gets, the entanglement gets lost when perturbations and noise appears and so on. So we are not today entangled with, I don't know.
是的。最初，所有的原子、所有的电子、所有的基本粒子都是纠缠在一起的。是的，因为宇宙的起源非常非常小，所以一切都是纠缠的。可以想象宇宙是纠缠在一起的。那么这里发生的事情会影响到其他地方，但当出现干扰和噪声时，这种纠缠就会逐渐消失。因此，今天我们并没有和别的东西保持纠缠，我不太确定。
I mean, we don't think that we are. Some people think that. Yes, yes. People are entangled. Yes. Well, let's get to it. Oh, yeah. That's the whole thing. That's a boy tree. That's poetry, exactly. There's another example that brings us to a very salient aspect of my childhood, which is chaos theory. Okay. Right. So I'll say it so you don't have to. You're one of the founders of chaos or certain aspects of chaos theory. We'll talk about that. But you know, for those of us that grew up in the 80s and 90s, I was born in 75. You know, who saw the movie Jurassic Park?
我的意思是，我们并不认为是这样。有些人是这么想的。对，对。人们互相纠缠。对。好吧，我们来谈谈这件事。哦，对了，就是这个。这是诗意的表达，对吧。正因为如此，也让我想起了童年中一个非常突出的一面，那就是混沌理论。好的。对。所以我来说明，以免你需要说明。你是混沌理论或其某些方面的创始人之一。我们会谈谈这个。但你知道，对于我们这些在80年代和90年代长大的人来说，我是75年出生的，谁看过电影《侏罗纪公园》呢？
You know, there's a moment in that movie where I think Jeff Goldblum is explaining, you know, what is it? Chaos theory and maybe it was the butterfly flapping its wings in one location and impacting something someplace else. For the poets in the world, right? That was a very captivating example because I think the human brain can naturally understand that, you know, things around us, we can have an impact on them and they can have an impact on us. But that the notion that a small insect, you know, thousands of kilometers away can impact something that's going on more adjacent to us.
在那部电影中有一个场景，我记得好像是Jeff Goldblum在解释什么是混沌理论，也许就是蝴蝶在一个地方扇动翅膀，然后对其他地方产生影响。对于世界上的诗人来说，这是一个非常吸引人的例子，因为我觉得人类大脑能够自然地理解我们周围的事物，我们可以对它们产生影响，它们也能够影响我们。但更深奥的是，一个远在数千公里之外的小昆虫也能对我们身边的事情产生影响。
It seems outrageous sci-fi, but, you know, the notion that one thing impacts another impacts another, that's pretty straightforward, right? There's just a dominoing of the physical world. Chaos theory is different. Yes. Okay, could you explain chaos? Yes. And I'll just add one more thing just for context for you, you know, these sort of the paints in the palette. Around the same time, I remember the book Chaos coming out and where there was a lot of excitement around chaos and this was coming out. There was also a lot of discussion about fractals. The idea that when you zoom into things at a very, very small level, you start seeing some regularities. We know this about crystal structures, right? Like, you could drop a water under a high-powered microscope, you see structure there. It's not random. The angles are very consistent, at least, around certain nodes, et cetera. So I think people love this idea that we have repeating, you know, repeating patterns and numbers in nature, that things at a distance can impact us more closely. Like, this is the kind of stuff that the non-physics brain can understand. And it does enchant, right? We sort of poked it poetry. I love poetry. You love poetry. But I think it enchants because I think humans are naturally interested in how, you know, the randomness of life might not be as random as it appears.
这听起来像是疯狂的科幻，但你知道，一件事影响另一件事再影响另一件事，这其实很简单，对吧？就像物理世界的多米诺骨牌效应一样。但混沌理论不同。那么，你能解释一下混沌吗？好的。我再补充一点背景知识，就像画盘中的颜色一样。大约在同一时期，我记得有一本书叫《混沌》，当时围绕混沌理论有很多兴奋的讨论。与此同时，也有很多关于分形的讨论。这个概念是说，当你放大到非常微小的层面时，会发现某些规律。我们知道晶体结构就是这样的，对吧？比如，在高倍显微镜下观察一滴水，就能看到结构，那并不是随机的。至少在某些节点周围，那些角度是非常一致的。人们喜欢这个想法，认为自然界中存在重复的模式和数字，远处的事物可以对我们产生更近的影响。这是普通人能理解的内容，令人着迷。就像我们随意创作的诗歌，我爱诗歌，你也爱诗歌。我想这让人着迷，是因为人们天生对生活中的随机性是否真的如表面上看起来那样随机感兴趣。
So what is chaos? Where does it exist in our lives? Not emotional chaos, but. And what is the relationship between fractals and chaos, if any? Okay, let me say first of all about why chaos is what it is. And it's not quantum. And there is quantum stories. And there is a quantum chaotic thing filled, but I won't go into that. Chaos is a very interesting idea, which is it flies against our intuitions. Since the times of Newton, we know that if you give me the position and the velocity of the initial particle, I can use Newton's equations of motion to tell you where that particle is going to be anywhere. So we can use the equation of motion to predict that trajectory and it's a precise trajectory. This is how Elon was able to capture the rocket with the chopsticks recently. That's something that's. Yeah, that's. Yeah, okay.
那么，什么是混沌？它在我们的生活中存在哪些方面？这里我们不谈情感上的混乱。那么，分形与混沌之间有何关系呢？如果有的话。好的，首先让我解释一下为什么混沌是它所是的样子。混沌并不是量子的，虽然确实存在一些量子故事和量子混沌领域，但我不会深入探讨那个。
混沌是一个非常有趣的概念，它与我们的直觉相悖。自从牛顿的时代，我们就知道，如果你给我一个粒子的初始位置和速度，我可以利用牛顿的运动方程来预测该粒子在任何地方的位置。因此，我们能够使用运动方程来预测其轨迹，并且这是一个精确的轨迹。这也是Elon最近能够用机械手捕捉火箭的原因之一。是这样的。是的，好吧。
Now, the idea of chaos is. So that's okay, it works. There are some cases where let's assume I'm going to give you a question. I'm going to give you a question. I'm going to give you a question. I'm going to give you a question. I'm going to give you a question. That's okay, it works. There are some cases where let's assume I'm going to give you a simple example. So I take a ball, I put it on a billiard ball on a billiard table. I send it out and at the moment I can talk and know exactly the position of velocity, I can tell you exactly where it's going to go.
现在，混沌的概念是这样的。所以这没问题，它是有效的。在某些情况下，让我们假设我要给你一个问题。这没问题，它是有效的。在某些情况下，让我们假设我要给你一个简单的例子。我拿一个球，把它放在台球桌上，然后让它滚动。此时如果我能知道球的位置和速度，我就能准确地告诉你它会滚到哪里。
Chaos says that a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny difference in the initial position or velocity of that ball will take it very, very far from the other one, which is ridiculous. I mean, if I tell you that two cars start at exactly the same speed and the same position and one of them has a little more. They'll stay parallel to each other. In some systems, and I'll tell you in a second, that actually those two trajectories diverge completely. So it's what we call sensitivity to initial conditions.
混沌理论表明，一个微乎其微的初始位置或速度差异会导致物体出现极大的偏离，这听起来很荒唐。打个比方，如果我告诉你两辆车以完全相同的速度和位置起步，其中一辆稍微有一点差异，它们应该会保持平行。但在某些系统中，我马上会告诉你，它们的轨迹实际上会完全分开。这就是我们所说的对初始条件的敏感性。
Okay, that's what chaos is all about in classical mechanics. What is really weird about it is that it happens in systems that are also undergo friction. Let me give you an example that I used to teach chaos at Stanford for many years. So imagine I give you a beaker full of molasses and you take a very big ball, stainless steel ball, and you just throw it into the thing. Well, after a while, it will just drift with the things that go slow, because friction slows it down and it just goes.
好的，这就是经典力学中的混沌现象。真正奇怪的是，它发生在那些同样经历摩擦的系统中。我来给你举个例子，这个例子是我多年在斯坦福教混沌理论时用的。想象一下，我给你一杯糖浆，然后你拿一个非常大的不锈钢球扔进去。过一会儿，由于摩擦会减慢球的速度，它最终会缓慢飘动。
Now you throw another one from another attitude and all of them are going to do exactly the same. Some systems that are chaotic do exactly the opposite. Even though there is friction, everything tends to just slow it down. They just keep going far apart from each other. Amazing. Amazing thing. So that's chaos. Okay, and I can tell you a little bit why I got so involved in this and the work we did.
现在你从不同的角度再扔一个球，它们都会做完全相同的事情。有些混沌系统则完全相反。即使存在摩擦，一切都会倾向于减慢速度。它们只会越来越远。这真是太神奇了。所以这就是混沌。好吧，我可以告诉你我为什么对此如此着迷以及我们所做的工作。
Does chaos exist in every physical system? Mostly, yes, yes. Maybe even in neurons or the brain. Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, this is why I don't want to get into controversy here about issues of where now we live in deterministic lives or not. But if things are a little bit random and so on, or even just a tiny difference in initial conditions can take you to very different outcomes. But this, we're not talking about many particles. We're talking too. Okay, so that's one.
混沌是否存在于每一个物理系统中？大多数情况下，是的，确实存在。甚至可能存在于神经元或大脑中。哦，是的，绝对存在。我是说，这就是为什么我不想在这里讨论我们是否生活在确定性的争议问题上。但是如果事物有一点随机性，或者即使初始条件有微小差异，也可能导致非常不同的结果。我们并不是在讨论很多粒子。我们只是在讨论两个。好，这就是其一。
Now fractals is a different story that comes out of a guy who I knew very well, Ben-Wamandelbrod, a very, very funny character, brilliant too, but very strange, who discovered that certain things are so similar. That if you look at a coast of Britain, he used to say that. You look at the coast of Britain and he said, okay, tell me, how long is the coast of Britain? You go with a meter and you measure it. Now, to post that the meter that you're using now can measure up to an inch. Well, you're going to get a different distance, even though you are adding the same, because there are all these little things in the coast of Britain that are essentially so similar that add a tremendous amount of length. That's what a fractal is all about.
现在，分形是一个不同的故事，这个概念出自于我非常熟悉的一个人，Ben-Wa Mandelbrot。他是一个非常有趣且聪明，但也非常奇怪的人。他发现某些事物是如此相似。他常说，如果你看英国的海岸线，并问自己：英国的海岸线有多长？你用一个计量尺去测量。如果你用的尺子可以精确到一英寸，那么你会得到一个不同的距离，即使你一直在加同样的长度。这是因为英国海岸线有许多微小的细节，它们是如此相似，却增加了巨大的长度。这就是分形的意义所在。
These are structures that are not just a simple line, but they have all these other things. He thought that it was a whole new geometry. As a matter of fact, and I tell you this because I know Ben-Wam very well, I met him through a talk that I gave on chaos. He used to hang out with chaos, he was a mathematician, brilliant man in many ways. I was having dinner with him in Copenhagen in a restaurant. And then the very pretty waitress came to us and so on and served us and, you know, we were talking to his French man. He spoke with a very heavy French accent. So she says something, what are you doing here? He says, we are at a conference, but I'm not just at a conference. I'm a very special man, he said to her.
这些结构不仅仅是简单的线条，它们还有许多其他的特征。他认为这是一种全新的几何学。事实上，我之所以这么说，是因为我非常了解Ben-Wam。我是通过一次关于混沌的演讲认识他的。他曾经研究混沌，是一位非常聪明的数学家。在哥本哈根的一家餐厅，我和他共进晚餐。一位非常漂亮的女服务员过来为我们服务，于是我们和他说着法语的法国人聊了起来。他说法语时带着很重的法国口音。她问，我们在这里做什么？他回答说，我们在参加一个会议，但我不仅仅是在参加会议，我是一个非常特别的人，他对她说。
And she said, how come? And he says, do you know who Euclid was? And she says, sort of, she said, well, he was a Greek man who invented geometry. And she said, oh, well, guess what? I am better than Euclid. I invented a different geometry. He said that. Yeah, he said that. Points to the waitress in Denmark that knew about Euclid. That was very good. The Danes are smart. Yeah, yeah, okay. That was very funny. That he would talk about it. So he would give a talk and he would say, my equations can generate anything. Indeed, he could generate any patterns. So he would say, you want a mountain? Here goes a mountain. But you see a mountain, beautiful rafts and so on. So self-similarity is a very powerful idea in physics because it allows you that if you know something at a certain scale, you can predict what's going to be on a different other scales. And I use that.
她说：“为什么呢？”他说：“你知道欧几里得是谁吗？”她说：“有点印象。”他说：“他是一个发明了几何学的希腊人。”她说：“哦，那你猜怎么着？我比欧几里得还厉害，我发明了另一种几何学。”他说：“是啊，他这样说的。”指着在丹麦的那个知道欧几里得的女服务生说道：“丹麦人都很聪明。”他说：“对，对，很有趣。”他会这样谈论它。他会讲演，说：“我的方程可以生成任何东西。”他的确能生成各种图案。他会说：“你想要一座山吗？好了，这就是一座山。”但你会看到一座山，美丽的山脉等。自相似性在物理学中是一个非常强大的概念，因为它让你在知道某个尺度上的情况时，可以预测其他不同尺度上的情况。我就用了这个概念。
But chaos and fractals are not always the same as he used to say because he didn't like physicists. Because we never liked his talks. We always said, okay, so you're telling us that things are. He used to say, I'm not interested in police. I'm not interested in things that move things up and down. He used to say. He came about elementary physics class. It's something of that. So, yeah. But fractals are very interesting because these are self-similar structures. At all levels, they look the same. You look at them big. They're small. They have the same type of geometric behavior. Chaos is all about dynamics, how things evolve in time. And their chaotic systems, they tend to diverge from each other for a long, long time.
但混沌和分形并不总是一回事，他常常这样说，因为他不喜欢物理学家。而我们也不太喜欢听他的讲座。我们总是说，好吧，你告诉我们事情就是这样。他常说，我对警察不感兴趣，我对物品的上下运动不感兴趣。他曾上过初级物理课，这就是他的一些看法。不过，分形非常有趣，因为它们是自相似结构。不论在哪个层次看，它们都一样。无论你将其放大还是缩小，它们都有相同的几何特征。混沌则关乎动态，是关于事物如何在时间中演变。在混沌系统中，事物往往会相互偏离，持续很长时间。
The man who invented the idea of the butterfly effect was a man called Ed Lorenz, who was a very famous meteorologist at MIT. And he was solving the equations of the atmosphere trying to predict the behavior of the weather. And he noticed in these very old computers and so on that sometimes he would get different behaviors. He thought there was something wrong about the computer. And he discovered that the only thing that was wrong was that the initial conditions that he was giving them was very, very tiny, different things. And he would get different things. From there, he went into that. And there are ideas that are very beautiful, like strange attractors and so on. I mean, we don't have to go into that.
创造蝴蝶效应概念的人叫做艾德·洛伦兹，他是麻省理工学院一位非常著名的气象学家。他在研究大气方程时试图预测天气的变化。在使用当时非常古老的计算机时，他注意到有时候结果会不同。他起初以为是计算机出了问题，但后来发现唯一的不同在于他给计算机输入的初始条件有极其细微的差异，而这会导致不同的结果。由此，他发展出了很多美妙的理论，比如奇异吸引子等（这部分我们可以不深入讨论）。
So chaos is really a field that essentially explains why things that seem to be simply explained by classical physics tend to diverge from each other. And they give rise to random outcomes. That's important thing. You can use chaos in order to generate random numbers. You can use chaos to generate random patterns. I've done that. And chaos exists at the quantum level and the macro level. Okay, so I was working at some there and I don't think it's interesting, but I got into this because I was doing something else and suddenly I decided I was going to do this and I really started going very fast at this. But then I had a very bright student, you met, ten-hug. And we decided, let's see if we can see chaos in quantum mechanics. And we started doing it and there were a couple of papers by the Russians actually showing that in this was a case. And we discovered that it was not the case. We actually proved that quantum systems are not chaotic. There's some kind of interference between them and so on that makes them recur back and forth periodically.
混沌实际上是一个领域，主要解释为什么看起来可以被经典物理简单解释的事物会有分歧，并导致随机结果。这很重要，因为你可以利用混沌来生成随机数或随机图案，我就曾这样做过。混沌现象存在于量子层面和宏观层面。好吧，我那时正在从事一些工作，本以为不太有趣，但因为我做其他事情时忽然决定去研究这个领域，于是开始快速投入其中。后来我有一个非常聪明的学生，你也认识他，叫Ten-hug。我们决定看看在量子力学中能否看到混沌现象。我们开始研究这个，并发现了几篇俄国学者的论文声称在量子力学中存在混沌，但我们通过研究发现并不是这样。我们实际上证明了量子系统并非混沌，因为它们之间存在某种干扰，使其周期性地来回往复。
I know I find that reassuring that if you get down to a small enough level that you can really predict what's going to happen as opposed to small perturbations leading to big differences in outcome. That was the whole point. We discovered that quantum mechanics, there are waves and interferences and so on that make the system recur. As a matter of fact, I had quite an exchange with Dick Feynman about it. When I met him, I went to give a talk at Caltech and I was in his office and he said, what are you going to talk about? Because I don't want to waste my time. And I said about chaos. He said, okay, I said, some things are very important, particularly in quantum mechanics. So I'm smiling because he was so sharp and so on. So he said, okay, give me the problem. And he said, well, okay, I give you an electron and you have any potential. And I give you a laser. And he says, the laser inside or outside the apparatus is just like that.
我觉得让一个系统在足够小的层面上变得可以预测，这让我感到很安心，因为这样小的扰动不会导致结果的大不同。这是整个要点。我们发现量子力学中存在波动和干涉等现象，使得系统可以出现重复。实际上，我和迪克·费因曼对此有过不少交流。有一次我在加州理工学院做演讲时见到了他。他问我打算讲什么，因为他不想浪费时间。我说我要讲混沌理论。他表示同意，然后我提到某些事情在量子力学中特别重要。我微笑着回忆，因为他的头脑特别敏锐。他让我给他个问题，于是我说，如果有一个电子和一个任意的势，以及一个激光。他接着问激光是在装置内还是外，这样聊了下去。
So I said outside. So you turn on the laser. I said, so what happens to the electron? And I knew he was going to give you the answer that was already in the literature. But he appeared to me thinking, stood up and walked around and was making. What's the sound noise? And then he says, the energy grows linearly in time. I said, no, it doesn't. How do you know? I said, we measure it. I can show you. And so on. And he was very impressed because that means that there is no chaos actually. Then he said, oh, you know why it got it wrong? And I said, no, because I wasn't thinking in colors only black and white. Was he trying to be funny? Of course. It was always funny.
翻译成中文，尽量易读：
所以我说在外面。然后你打开激光。我问，那么电子会发生什么呢？我知道他会给出文献中已有的答案。但他看起来在思考，站起来走来走去，然后发出一些声音。接着他说，能量是线性增长的。我说，不是的。你怎么知道？我说，我们测量过。我可以给你看，等等。他很惊讶，因为这意味着实际上没有混乱。然后他说，哦，你知道我为什么弄错了吗？我说，不知道，因为我没有只用黑白思考。他是在开玩笑吗？当然，他一直很幽默。
Let's talk about fine men and gill man and Mandel brought in all the rest as a collection for a moment. One of the great gifts of my life has been that you would talk about scientists. It really enchants me. I'm so delighted when I hear it. I grew up hearing the stories about these scientists and not athletes, which is great, but scientists. It seems to me that every time you talk about another scientist, you both revere the work that he did, you see something unique about them.
让我们来谈谈优秀的人和鱼鳃人，还有曼德尔带来的其他人物，这些都是一个时刻的集合。我人生中的一个巨大馈赠就是你会谈论科学家。这真的让我感到着迷。当我听到这样的谈话时，我非常高兴。我从小就听这些关于科学家的故事，而非运动员的故事，这很好，因为是科学家。在我看来，每次你谈到另一位科学家时，你不仅尊重他所做的工作，还能看到他们独特之处。
And something I learned very early on, and I've certainly internalized is, and forgive me because I'm assuming here, is that there's a certain aspect of like their quirkiness or something about them, like to take them seriously, but not too seriously. Like I never learned to assume that because somebody was a Nobel Prize winner that they were perfect, for instance. You would tell me Einstein had, he was amazing. Like there was relativity, the patent office, all this stuff, and he had all these problems with women. Oh yeah. And I read the books, right? Or this person, I won't name names because these people are still alive, still Convalley. Actually, when you and I used to take walks when I was a postdoc, we used to see jobs walking around, right? No shoes, he had feet, no shoes.
我很早就学到一件事，并且一直铭记于心，请原谅我的假设：那就是，无论一个人有多么与众不同，或者他们身上有什么特质，我们都应该认真对待，但不要过于严肃。我学会了不要因为某人是诺贝尔奖得主就认为他们是完美的。比如，你告诉我爱因斯坦是多么了不起，他发明了相对论、在专利局工作，等等，但他在女性问题上也有很多麻烦。我读过这些书。或者说某个人，我就不提名字了，因为这些人还活着，依然活跃。实际上，当我还是博士后时，你和我常常一起散步，然后看到乔布斯经常光着脚散步。
And you would say, he's amazing, like this guy's brilliant, but then we would chuckle about some of the jobisms. And so one thing that I learned was that scientists are just people, that these founders, they're creators, they're just people, and they often have very challenging areas of their life as well. Like they're not perfect, they're not gods. Some of them have almost godlike access to the universe and understanding it. But it seems to me that you hold people up for their contributions, but you never actually, thank goodness, put people on a pedestal to the point where you're like, this person is spectacular in every way.
你可以这样说，他非常了不起，简直是个天才，但我们也会笑谈一些他特有的习惯。我学到的一点是，科学家也是普通人，这些创始人、创造者也都是如此。他们也常常在生活中面临各种挑战，他们并不完美，也不是神。有些人在某些方面几乎掌握了对宇宙的理解，但在我看来，我们尊重人们的贡献，但很庆幸不会把某个人捧上神坛，认为他们样样都无与伦比。
And I'm not saying you cut them down to size, but I learned very, and this has served me well in my life and now public facing, or on Twitter. Like if I make a mistake and someone comes at me and somebody that I respect, I go, but then I remember this person has a lot of issues in certain domains of their life. So to realize that we're all human, this notion of none of us are gods. And yet there are people like Feynman, like Gelman, like Einstein, who have almost supernatural levels of ability. So what's that about? How do you hold knowledge, insight, and stature in your mind alongside the humanness, the inherent flawed nature of all of us? Well, okay, it's complicated. There are many ways to think about it. In some of these names, for instance, these people are built into giants by the media too. I mean, Feynman, if you go to core and so on, everybody's asking, what did Feynman do?
我并不是说你要把他们看扁，但我很早就学会了这一点，并一直受益匪浅，尤其是在生活中，现在在公众面前，或者在推特上也是这样。当我犯错时，如果有人批评我，而这个人是我尊重的人，我会觉得不舒服，但随后我意识到这个人他自己在生活中的某些方面也有很多问题。于是我明白到，我们都是人，没人是神。然而，有些人如费曼、盖尔曼、爱因斯坦，他们的能力几乎达到了超凡的水平。这是怎么回事呢？如何在心中同时持有知识、洞察力和地位，与我们所有人固有的缺陷并存？嗯，这很复杂，可以从很多角度去思考。比如说，有些名字的被塑造成巨人，媒体也起了很大作用。像费曼，如果你去查阅核心知识库等等，大家都在问：“费曼做了什么？”
What was he wearing and so on? As if he was a god. I mean, obviously what he did in physics, he interrupt myself here because he really worked very hard, very hard, according to Gelman, in particular, to creating a myth about himself. He worked very hard. When I met him, I can even tell you the anecdotes. I only met him for an hour, but he was obviously the kind of man that wanted to live an impression with you. Or rated and x-rated anecdotes. Exactly. But the good one was, I was going to give the colloquium and he said, should I come? I said, I think you should come. And then he said, well, then I'm going to give you a piece of advice. Do not look at me. Because if you look at me during your talk, you're going to get confused and so on. And actually, that's exactly what happened. I started colloquium at Caltech, the Marine Board Camp of Science. And there I am starting to talk. And suddenly I said, instead of saying the next star, where I said something like him the next week or something or so, because there he was. And then he started saying, look elsewhere else, that kind of guy. For anyone who hasn't lectured, there's a tendency sometimes when one is going fast to fill in without thinking, it's just something that one learns. I mean, I've had to learn it the hard way when we missed it in the recording and this kind of thing. It's a humbling moment. But yeah, I think that, well, Feynman would have been canceled by the standards of the last few years.
他当时穿着什么，等等。仿佛他是个神一样。我的意思是，显然他在物理学上的成就很出色，但据格尔曼说，他特别努力地创造了一种关于自己的传奇。他真的非常努力工作。当我第一次见到他时，我可以告诉你一些趣闻轶事。我只和他见过一小时，但他显然是那种想给你留下深刻印象的人。他讲了一些普通和一些劲爆的故事。真正有意思的是，有一次我即将主持一个学术讲座，他问我是否应该来。我说我认为你应该来。他接着说，那我给你个建议：不要看我。因为如果你在演讲期间看我，你会分心。实际上，确实如此。我在加州理工学院的海洋科学营地开始演讲。当时我正在发表讲话，突然我本该说“下一颗恒星”的时候，却说成了“下周他”之类的话，只因为他在那儿。然后他开始说，要看向其他地方。对于那些没有演讲经验的人来说，当你语速很快的时候有时会不自觉地填充一些词，这只是一个经验教训。我自己是通过录音中出错才学到这一点的。这是一个令人羞愧的时刻。不过我想，按照近几年的标准，费曼可能会遭遇被“取消”的状况。
I took even my father once to a lecture. He was given in San Francisco. And he was giving a beautiful lecture to, I don't know, get some award for teaching and so on. And suddenly a bunch of women walked into the front of the big room, you know, and they started coming. Because it turns out that in one of his lectures, he said something like, you know, if you do it this way, you're as bad as a woman's driver. Feynman said that. And then all these women were saying things. And then he said, I love women. You know, he was very clever. He would have lost his job by the standards of. Might be. Yeah. But regardless of that, because I really want to go back to this issue, people like Merigal Mann, I mean, it was, to me, he was the most intimidating person I've ever met. I mean, I mean, now eventually I got to know him because he liked what I was doing. And as a matter of fact, he and I organized a workshop in Crevel, luxurious place in France at the state of Manam Schlambe, the oil depot. Actually, it was an incredible meeting that he and I organized. So I got to know him a little bit personally. And, well, he was complaining at that time, he couldn't get a date. He was a widow and he wanted to, you know, women were intimidated by him too. As I recall, because I remember meeting him when I was a kid and we both shared a love of birds, but he was perhaps one of the world's most obnoxious people. Right. But you impressed him. As a matter of fact, I still, you know, I don't know if you want me to remind you of this, because we had two stories there. Your mother and I were taking a hiking aspen and we saw a bird that looked incredibly complicated and so on. So we looked over the next day, we went to him because he loved birds, as you know. And I said, I saw most unusual bird. He said, describe it. So I grew up and he gave me the name of in Latin of the bird. And then he said, that's the most common bird in the Bay Area of California. As a matter of fact, you should see it when you pick up the newspaper next time you're there. And indeed, two weeks later, I went to pick up the New York Times and there was the bird.
我曾经带我父亲去参加过一次讲座，那是在旧金山上的，他正在那儿讲课，好像是为了获得某个教学奖项。然而，突然有一群女性走进了大礼堂，原因是他在之前的一次讲座中提到过，如果你这样做的话，那就和女性司机一样糟糕，是费曼说的。于是，这些女性开始发表意见，他机智地回应说他热爱女性。按照现在的标准，他可能会因此丢掉工作。不管怎样，我真的想回到这个话题，像梅里尔·曼这样的人，对我来说，他是我见过最令人生畏的人。最终因为他喜欢我做的事情，我渐渐了解了他。事实上，他和我曾在法国克雷维尔的一个豪华地方组织了一次研讨会，那地方是马南·斯朗贝，石油储备地的所在地。这次会议由我们共同组织，非常精彩。所以，我对他有了一些个人的了解，当时他抱怨自己找不到约会对象。他是个鳏夫，并且据我回忆，因为我小时候曾和他见面，我们都很喜欢鸟，但他可能是世界上最让人讨厌的人之一。不过，你让他印象深刻。事实上，我不知道你是否想让我提醒你这件事，我们有两个故事。那时你母亲和我正在阿斯彭徒步旅行，我们看到了一只非常复杂的鸟。于是第二天我们去找他，因为你知道他喜欢鸟。我对他说，我见到了一只非常罕见的鸟。他让描述，于是我描述后，他用拉丁语说出了鸟的名字。他说那是加州湾区最常见的鸟，事实上，下次你在那儿拿报纸时就能看到。果然，两周后，我去取《纽约时报》，正好看到了那只鸟。
But at the same time, I said, Andrew likes birds. And he asked you, what is your favorite bird? And you said the rainbow lower key. Still is. And he said, this kid knows, this kid knows. He said, I know my birds. I know my birds. It's amazing. I never heard, you know, because if you could have said a parrot, he would have not been very interested. Okay. So, but he was intimidating, very intimidating. And he was nasty too, when he wanted to be. So he enjoyed the power he had. I was on the, I was a member of the board of the directors of the Aspen Center. So we had to decide what programs we had every summer. And he would come to me and say, whom do you want me to insult today? He had all sorts of very funny names for all sorts of physicists and so on.
同时，我说，安德鲁喜欢鸟。他问你，你最喜欢的鸟是什么？你回答说是彩虹吸蜜鹦鹉。到现在还是。他说，这孩子懂，这孩子懂。他说，我了解鸟类，真的很厉害。我从来没听说过，因为如果你当时说的是鹦鹉，他可能并不会很感兴趣。不过，他给人的感觉很有压迫感，也很吓人。有时候他也很刻薄，因为他喜欢掌控权力。我是阿斯彭中心董事会的成员，每年夏天我们需要决定举办哪些项目。他会来找我，说，你今天想让我侮辱谁？他给各种物理学家起了很多有趣的绰号，等等。
The downside of people like that in science, because I've known some too, there's a very famous neuroscientist now in his 70s who has a Nobel Prize, who also is known for generating anecdotes about himself. Like, and in recent years, because of political correctness, wokeism and so forth tends to do that less because they have sort of a chunker's mouth. And he's a young guy. But he's got it known for being outrageous and trying to create tales about themselves. This is something that scientists do. Yeah, right, right. To in order to maintain their legacy. Yeah, also to feel good about themselves.
在科学界，这样的人的缺点在于，因为我也认识一些这样的人。有一位非常著名的神经科学家，现在已经70多岁并且获得了诺贝尔奖，他也以喜欢讲述关于自己的轶事而闻名。近年来，由于政治正确、觉醒主义等原因，他这样做的频率有所下降，因为这些因素让人表现得更收敛。而且，他是个年轻人，但他因敢于突破界限并不断创造关于自己的传闻而出名。这是科学家们常做的事情，目的是为了保持他们的声誉，当然也为了让自己感觉良好。
I mean, by the way, I mean, I work with him. It was incredible. I mean, you know, and the way he would interrupt people and so on. And there are two things I can tell you that are interesting. Once he was announcing some new results, he was working on this whole thing on, on, on quarks and other things. And actually it was a string theory. And he announced the seminar and everybody goes into the garden, you know, the seminar said nice. I need to remind the audience perhaps here that the Aspen Center for music was right next to the tent. They were rehearsing. So the seminar was supposed to start at three and there's young man comes with all his notes and he's always had notes, walking, pacing and nothing happened. And suddenly they were rehearsing the, the tone is 15, 20, which just says, ta, ta, ta, and then you heard the sound and then he started. I will now tell you about a new theory of how the universe works. That's the way he spoke.
翻译如下：
我是说，顺便提一下，我和他一起工作过。那真是太不可思议了。我是说，你知道的，他总是会打断别人，诸如此类的。有两件事我可以告诉你，这很有趣。有一次他在宣布一些新的研究成果，他在研究夸克和其他东西。其实那是弦理论。他宣布了一场研讨会，大家都到花园里去了。需要提醒一下观众，亚斯本音乐中心就在帐篷旁边，他们正在排练。研讨会原定下午三点开始，然后有个年轻人带着所有的笔记来了，他总是带着笔记，走来走去，但没有发生任何事情。然后忽然他们排练的曲调15, 20出现了，只是发出“ta, ta, ta”的声音，然后他就开始了。他说，我现在要告诉你们关于宇宙运作的新理论。他就是这样讲话的。
So what strikes me is that these people take themselves very seriously. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you think that's important in life? I don't. I like to, I mean, as you know, I like to be, to have a good sense of you and myself and be self deprecating. I think some people, you know, have issues and they do that. I mean, it's all depends on how, how do you, you know, see things. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Matina. Matina makes loose leaf and ready to drink your bamatte. Now I've often discussed your bamatte's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, the ways it can improve digestion and its possible neuroprotective effects. It's for all those reasons that your bamatte is my preferred source of caffeine.
让我感到惊讶的是，这些人对自己非常认真。确实如此，确实如此。你认为在生活中这样很重要吗？我不这么认为。我喜欢有幽默感，对自己开玩笑。虽然有些人可能有问题，他们确实会认真对待。我觉得这取决于你怎么看待这些事情。我想稍作休息，感谢一下我们的赞助商之一，Matina。Matina生产散装和即饮的马黛茶。我常常讨论马黛茶的好处，比如调节血糖、丰富的抗氧化剂含量、改善消化和可能的神经保护作用。出于这些原因，马黛茶是我首选的咖啡因来源。
I also drink your bamatte because I simply love the taste. And while there are a lot of different choices out there of your bamatte drinks, my personal favorite far and away is Matina. It's made of the highest quality ingredients, which gives it a really rich, but also a really clean taste. So none of that tannic aftertaste. In fact, given how amazing Matina tastes and their commitment to quality, I decided to become a part owner in the company earlier this year. In particular, I love the taste of Matina's canned zero sugar cold brew your bamatte, which I personally help develop. I drink at least three cans of those a day now. I also love their loose leaf Matina, which I drink every morning from the gourd. So I add hot water and sip on that thing and I'll have some cold brews throughout the morning and early afternoon. I find it gives me terrific energy all day long and I'm able to fall asleep perfectly well at night. No problems. If you'd like to try Matina, you can go to drinkmatina.com slash Huberman. Right now, Matina is offering a free one pound bag of loose leaf your bamatte tea and free shipping with the purchase of two cases of their cold brew your bamatte. Again, that's drinkmatina.com slash Huberman to get a free bag of your bamatte loose leaf tea and free shipping.
我也喝你的Bamatte饮品，因为我非常喜欢它的味道。虽然市面上有很多不同选择，但我最喜欢的还是Matina。它采用最高质量的原料制成，口感醇厚又清爽，没有那种涩涩的余味。其实，考虑到Matina的味道如此惊艳，且他们对品质的坚持，今年早些时候我决定成为该公司的部分股东。尤其是，我喜欢Matina的无糖冷萃Bamatte罐装饮品的味道，我个人参与了其开发。我现在每天至少喝三罐。此外，我还喜欢他们的Matina散装茶，每天早上用葫芦冲泡。我会加热水啜饮，然后整个上午和下午早些时候喝点冷萃。我发现这让我全天精力充沛，而且晚上也能很好地入睡，没有问题。如果你想尝试Matina，你可以访问drinkmatina.com/Huberman。现在，购买两箱冷萃Bamatte饮品，可以免费获得一袋一磅重的Bamatte散茶并享受免费配送。同样是通过drinkmatina.com/Huberman获取免费Bamatte散茶和免运费。
Let me ask you about this. So further down my list of things I want to talk to you about is that you've always loved it. It's clear from a young age, like high level concepts, deemed concepts, order in the universe, working on hard problems. You just filed another patent. As long as I've known you, you've been pursuing some new area of knowledge or implementation of knowledge. And yet you like your father. I know you delight in everyday things. I mean, since I was a kid, you've taken a walk after dinner. You bite to work if you can that day because of the weather. You love a really good espresso, a really good meal. The high and the low are checked off boxes for you. That's different I think than the way most people think about scientists, especially theoreticians, theorists, excuse me. Which one is it? Theoreticians or theorists? Theoreists, they say. Theoreists. Yeah. Theoreists. That we assume like the academics that are always somewhere else, like they're up here, they're not grounded. They're not feet on the ground. But you like everyday things.
让我问你一下这个问题。说到我列表上想和你谈的事情，你总是从小就对高级概念、复杂理论、宇宙秩序以及解决困难问题很感兴趣。这点从小就显而易见。你刚刚又申请了一项专利。从我认识你开始，你总是在追求某个新的知识领域或知识应用。但同时你也像你的父亲一样，我知道你对日常琐事充满了乐趣。比如，我小时候就记得你晚饭后会去散步。天气允许的情况下，你会骑自行车上班。你热爱一杯香浓的浓缩咖啡和一顿美味的饭菜。你两者兼顾，高级的和日常的事物都对你而言很重要。这和大多数人对科学家的印象不同，尤其是那些理论学者。我们以为那些学者总是飘在云端，不接地气。但你却喜欢日常的事情。
Oh, absolutely. Like where we're going to eat dinner tonight is. Every bit as important as this. Absolutely. The conversation about relativity. Absolutely. I think that there is a myth that it can sometimes get perpetrated at universities. My first meeting with my advisor when I got to University of Pennsylvania, he said, I want you to know one thing. You're going to live like a monk. I said, what does that mean? No fun, nothing.
哦，当然。就像今晚我们要去哪里吃晚饭一样重要。绝对的。这就像关于相对论的讨论一样重要。绝对的。我认为有一种误解常常在大学里被传播。第一次在宾夕法尼亚大学见我的导师时，他对我说，我希望你知道一件事：你会像和尚一样生活。我问，这是什么意思？他说，没有乐趣，什么都没有。
You're going to work. I want you to work. You're beginning to pay to do something. I was sort of scared. And then I told him that on weekends I had to escape to New York City to take a walk on Central Park and look at nice things. You know, I always enjoyed the good things of life. And at that time I couldn't afford them. But that doesn't mean that I didn't, you know, I enjoyed them. And I do believe that I inherit this from my father. It's tremendous enjoyment of life in general.
你要去工作。我希望你去工作。你开始付钱去做一些事情。我有点害怕。然后我告诉他周末我不得不逃到纽约，在中央公园散步，欣赏美好的事物。你知道，我一直喜欢生活中的美好事物。而那时我负担不起。但这并不意味着我不喜欢。我相信我从父亲那里继承了这种对生活的极大享受。
And yes, I am very physical and tactile about things. I like to surround myself with things that are beautiful. I enjoy, as you said, good meals and the daily things about life. I'm not just living in some stratosphere and not being able to enjoy a meal I'm having and so on. No, the opposite. And yes, in that sense, I am very much like that. And you know, the mayor is the same way. And so that's why you enjoyed that.
是的，我确实是一个非常注重实际和触觉的人。我喜欢让自己被美丽的事物包围。正如你所说，我喜欢美食和生活中的日常事务。我不是活在某个高不可及的境界里，无法享受正在吃的一餐等等。恰恰相反，我非常享受。当时市长也是这样的人，所以你才会喜欢。
Your wife. Yeah, my wife, sorry. Yes, we really enjoy, you know, she in particular being Danish, you know, they have this idea of slow eating and enjoying the good things of life. I'm very much like that. Yes, very much. I don't feel guilty about it. You know, if I can afford some. No, should you? Well, there is a certain aesthetic component to science and the idea that they sell you that, you know, Einstein didn't care about anything. Actually, if you look at the negotiations that Einstein had with Institute for Advanced Studies for salaries, you'll see that he really cared a lot about these things too. So our notion of him is just kind of like, it was just science and he had no interest in material things.
你的妻子。是的，我的妻子，抱歉。我们真的很喜欢，尤其是她是丹麦人，他们有慢食和享受生活中美好事物的理念。我也很喜欢这种生活方式，非常喜欢。我对此完全不感到羞愧，只要我能负担得起。不，为什么要感到羞愧呢？科学中也有一定的美学成分，他们告诉你的那种爱因斯坦对什么都不在乎的想法其实不完全对。实际上，如果你看看爱因斯坦与高等研究院关于工资的谈判，你会发现他其实也非常在乎这些事情。所以我们对他的印象就是，他只关心科学，对物质生活毫无兴趣。
Right, right. Yes. I had an uncle actually, Hector's father. You know, there was a branch of the family that was very much into culture. They had beautiful collections of paintings and so on. And I was what, fifteen or so. And I remember at a party, we had big social parties in my parents' house. And he was lecturing me that I should never care about anything but truth and concepts and so on. I was a little bit scared. I wanted to enjoy life as well. Okay. It was a little bit complicated.
好的，好的。是的。我确实有个叔叔，他是赫克托的父亲。我们家有一个家族分支非常热衷于文化，他们收藏了很多精美的画等。我大概十五岁左右的时候，还记得在一个聚会上，我们家经常举行大型社交聚会，他跟我说教，说我应该只关心真理和观念之类的东西。我当时有点害怕，因为我也想享受生活，这让我觉得有点复杂。
No, no, I enjoy everything. Of course. I think I got out of my father mostly. Yes. My mother was a little more ascetic in a way. But yes, the tiny little things of life are what makes one's life. You know? I'm slowly starting to get that. Yes. I think I've been a little like rabid about my interests, almost to an obsessive level to the point where I've sometimes overlooked how many opportunities for just lovely daily interactions I have. I try.
不，不，我喜欢一切。当然。我想我大部分性格是从我父亲那里继承的。是的，我母亲有点更为节制。不过，是的，生活中的那些小事情才是让生活丰富多彩的关键。你明白吗？我慢慢开始理解这个道理。是的，我以前对我的兴趣有点狂热，几乎到了痴迷的程度，以至于有时忽视了许多美好的日常交流的机会。我会努力的。
But I feel like I've just been chasing the carrot of knowledge. Like, I love doing what I do. I've always done that. Well, but you have to be careful indeed. I, you know, as you know, I meditate for many years and so on. I'm being in the present and being able to just be there and nothing else is the tremendous source of satisfaction and comes, comes me down and so on. And when did you start that?
但我觉得自己一直在追求知识的"胡萝卜"。就像，我热爱我所做的事情，而且我一直是这样做的。不过，你确实需要小心。你知道，我已经冥想了很多年。活在当下，仅仅是存在在那里，什么也不做，这给我带来了极大的满足感，让我平静。你是什么时候开始这样做的？
Well, I started actually out of, out of the discovery. I mean, the trivial thing that many people have. I discovered that every time my blood pressure was taken by the doctor, he was just going through the roof. You know, I used to call it white coat phenomenon or something of that sort. And I got very, very upset about it because I tried to control it and it got worse and worse and worse and they told me, you know, to the one. So I want one or the other. I have a friend, a colleague more than a friend who's a Buddhist who started telling me about, you know, have you tried, first of all, by your feedback? That's a good one. I tried for a year. I did by a, by a feedback. And then he started telling me about meditation.
好的，我实际上是从一个发现开始的。就是说，一件很多人都有的小事。我发现每次医生给我量血压的时候，我的血压都会飙高。我曾经称之为"白大衣效应"或类似的东西。我对此感到非常非常沮丧，因为我努力想控制血压，但情况却越来越糟。他们告诉我的就是这些。所以我想要有个解决办法。我的一个朋友，也可以说是同事，他是个佛教徒，他开始告诉我一些方法，比如你有没有试过生物反馈？这是个不错的选择。我尝试了一年使用生物反馈。然后他开始告诉我关于冥想的方法。
So one day, actually, he's a physicist as well. He was visiting me in my lab and I said, he said, let me, let's do it. I did a session with him in meditation. I couldn't believe it. My hands suddenly were warm and, you know, felt incredibly nice. So I decided that I really wanted to learn how to do it. And I started doing it at a time when I really needed it because I realized that without being aware, I was anxious. Like for instance, I would see myself walking down the street holding my, you know, fists this way. That's not a very relaxed way of living. Okay.
有一天，其实，他也是一位物理学家。他来我的实验室拜访我，我说，我们做一次冥想吧。我和他一起进行了冥想，我简直不敢相信。我的手突然变得温暖，感觉非常舒适。所以我决定真的去学习如何进行冥想。在我非常需要的时候，我开始练习，因为我意识到在不自觉中，我是焦虑的。比如，我会看到自己走在街上时，握着拳头。这并不是很放松的生活方式。
So I really started doing this meditation on a fairly continuous basis. And I really enjoy it. And it's very important as, you know, as a father, I say this to anyone too, that you have to enjoy life. I mean, pursuing these things, you know, eventually what, you know, the, the, the value is in the pursuit not in achieving them anyhow. So you might as well pursue many things at the same time. I mean, a good meal, eating properly can be very, very nice too. You know, I love that about you.
所以我开始比较持续地进行这种冥想练习，我真的很喜欢它。作为一个父亲，我想告诉大家，享受生活是很重要的。追求这些东西时，你要知道，最有价值的其实在于追求的过程，而不在于最终是否实现。所以你也可以同时追求很多事情。比如说，一顿美餐，健康地饮食也可以非常棒。我喜欢你在这方面的态度。
And I'm working on, I remember when I, along those lines, I remember when I was in graduate school, we, we published a paper and then we published a second paper in science. And I remember thinking like, this is like such a proud moment of first author paper in the journal science. And I, I told you, and you said, um, you said, um, well, enjoy it and just be aware that by tomorrow you'll be worried that you'll never do it again. Exactly. Yeah. And finally we published in nature and a few other journals a bunch of times after that, but you also warned me about the postpartum of post excitement. Like something great happens, you know, at that time we, as a field of neuroscience, didn't really understand gopamine dynamics, but now we do what you were describing as this trough and dopamine that we get a day or two after some big event.
我记得我在攻读研究生的时候，我们发表了一篇论文，接着又在《科学》杂志上发表了第二篇论文。当时我觉得这是一个非常自豪的时刻，作为第一作者在《科学》杂志上发表论文。我告诉了你这一切，你回应说：“享受这个时刻吧，不过要意识到，明天你可能会担心自己再也无法做到这样了。”最终，我们在《自然》和其他一些杂志上也发表了多篇论文。但你也提醒我要小心那种兴奋后的失落感。当时在神经科学领域，我们还不太理解多巴胺的动态变化，但现在我们明白了：在一些重大事件发生一两天后，多巴胺水平会出现下降。
Yes. Typically postpartum associated with the birth of a child, but it could be, you know, getting a degree or a great party or a paper in science or nature for saucer paper. And, and you said a couple of days from now you're going to feel low and you just have to wait and I'll never forget what you said. You said, just go back to what inspired the first project, pick a different problem. It'll happen again. Yes. And the second time it happened, I was like, he was right. It happened again. Yes. And again and again, I haven't had an infinite number of those papers in those journals, but I learned about the dopamine dynamics associated with pursuing a goal. And then you get the thing and you're very excited and then you feel the drop.
是的。通常来说，"产后"与生孩子相关，但你知道，这种感觉也可能出现在获得学位、举办一场盛大的派对、或是在《科学》或《自然》杂志上发表论文的时候。而且，你提到几天后你可能会感到情绪低落，且我永远不会忘记你所说过的话。你说，只要回到最初激励你的项目，选择一个不同的问题，这种感觉就会再次出现。是的。当这种感觉第二次出现时，我意识到你说的对，它又发生了。是的，一次又一次，尽管我在那些期刊上发表的论文不是无数的，但我学到了与追求目标相关的多巴胺动态。你实现目标时会非常兴奋，然后就会感到情绪低落。
Yes. Yes. And that I think that is something that even ancient philosophers knew about it. The Buddha, many, you know, the Greeks and so on, this idea that they said the things we pursued, they are ephemeral in a way and the way the feelings that would be eliciting us, you know. And I think that you're right. And there is also another tendency one has to try to avoid, which is you're successful in something and you continue doing exactly the same thing because by now you know how to deal with your hands. You're right.
是的，是的。我认为这是一件连古代哲学家都知道的事情。佛陀、许多希腊哲学家等等，他们提到我们所追求的事物在某种程度上是短暂的，而这些事物引发的感受也是如此。我认为你说得对，还有一个需要避免的倾向，那就是当你在某件事情上成功后，你会继续做完全一样的事情，因为到那个时候你已经知道如何应对了。你说得没错。
And I always felt that I want to go the swear and you know, I have sort of a reputation for changing fields. And you know, I don't do that in order for others to be puzzled by it. It's just that I'm curious and I want to have a feeling again that like falling in love, you know, the new thing, you know, it's nice at the beginning. But eventually whatever you're doing, it becomes, you know, trite and so on. Yeah, let's talk about that because after chaos, which you brought a lot of, you know, I remember we had reporters in our house and there was like a TV and the book by Jim Glick and then and then you switched to something completely different.
我总是感觉自己想要去冒险，你知道的，我有一种不断更换领域的名声。我并不是为了让别人感到困惑才这样做的。只是因为我很好奇，我想再次感受到那种像坠入爱河一样的新鲜感。新事物在开始时总是很美好，但不久之后，无论你在做什么，都会变得有些乏味。所以，让我们谈谈这个，因为在你带来一片混乱之后，我记得我们家里有记者，有电视，还有一本叫吉姆·格莱克的书，然后你就转向了完全不同的东西。
Yes. And you got into computer science. Yeah. Well, computer science is a computer computer. What happened was that a lot of the success that we had was because I was at Park, we had phenomenal computer facilities there, things that we could visualize that at a time very few people could do. And so one of them, actually, someone suggested I get a patent, but he said, patent for the chaos that sometimes people have in t-shirts that actually we discovered the first time with guys from UC Santa Cruz, which in Crutchfield and so on, you know, he was actually very instrumental in getting me into chaos and so on. But that is, but when I, what happened was, okay, so we did this, we did quantum.
好的，你进入了计算机科学领域。是的。嗯，计算机科学其实就是关于计算机的。事情是这样的，我们取得了很多成功，主要是因为我在帕克有出色的计算机设备，能够实现一些当时很少有人能做到的可视化。有一次，有人建议我申请专利，他提到的是T恤上那种有时出现的混沌图案，这种设计其实我们首次与加州大学圣克鲁兹分校的研究人员，一起探讨时发现的，而Crutchfield等人对于我深入研究混沌学尤其具有重大影响。但是后来发生的是，好的，我们研究了量子计算。
And then one day I said, okay, so what do I do now? Okay. Well, you can go and publish one paper after that in chaos. I mean, you can produce 10 PhDs with this. But then I said, why don't I do the opposite? Are using computers to help me with the physics? Why don't I use the physics to study computers? Well, that's an interesting idea, but you know, I mean, this is, so how do you do that? So what happened to me, I was at a meeting on chaos in Copenhagen and I couldn't sleep one night and I had a book called The Computer Red Brain by John von Neumann, perhaps someone that was a true genius. I don't know if you heard of him.
有一天，我问自己，那我现在该怎么办呢？好吧，你可以在"混沌"领域发表一篇论文，也可以培养十个博士。不过后来我想，为什么不反过来呢？我一直使用计算机来帮助我研究物理，为什么不利用物理去研究计算机呢？这确实是个有趣的想法。但问题是，究竟要怎么做呢？后来，我在哥本哈根参加一个关于混沌的会议，那天晚上我失眠了，正好手边有一本书，是约翰·冯·诺依曼写的《计算机与大脑》。也许你听说过他，他确实是一位真正的天才。
The inventor computers, he was a phenomenon at all levels and he was part of the Manhattan Project. He was perhaps one of the most brilliant people that ever existed, at least that we are aware of. He was a being still for advanced studies, von Neumann. There are all sorts of anecdotes about him. He had a photographic memory. You could give him a page of a phone book.
He would look at it closer and then he would recite the phone numbers from bottom to top. Totally useless skill. Yeah, but he was a genius, a genius, true genius. The inventor computers, he invented game theory in economics. I mean, useful skill. Yeah, exactly.
计算机的发明者，他在各个层面上都是一个非凡的人物，也是曼哈顿计划的一员。他可能是有史以来最聪明的人之一，至少在我们所知的范围内是这样。他是冯·诺依曼，一个仍在进行高级研究的天才。有各种各样关于他的轶事。他拥有惊人的记忆力。你可以给他一页电话号码本，他只需仔细看一下，然后就能从下往上背出这些号码。虽然这技能毫无用处，但他是个天才，一个真正的天才。他发明了计算机，还在经济学中创立了博弈论，实用的技能，确实如此。
In any way, so he wrote a very little book called The Computer and the Brain. No equations, nothing. And one night, four o'clock in the morning, I cannot sleep, I get done, you know, I was summer so the sun was still sort of the incorporating it. And I went there to read it and I said, this is what I'm going to do. I don't know anything about brains, but I can imagine, you know, if the brain is like a computer, I could do something like that. But I also want to apply some of what I know to these things.
所以，他写了一本很小的书，叫《计算机与大脑》。没有方程式，什么都没有。有一天晚上，凌晨四点，我睡不着，就起床去了，因为是夏天，太阳还没完全出来。我去读那本书，然后我说，这就是我想做的。我对大脑一无所知，但我可以想象，如果大脑像计算机一样，那我也许也能做类似的事情。而且我还想把自己知道的一些东西应用到这些事情上。
And the first thing that occurred to me was to start looking at a computer network we had on park. These computers were communicated with each other as we nowadays, we know it as the Internet and so on. So there were many, many aspects of this. And I decided that because I was very influenced by one or two students that were very much into economics and libertarian ideas and so on, and one of them had taken two courses in econ at Caltech.
我首先想到的是开始研究我们园区里有的计算机网络。这些计算机彼此之间是可以沟通的，类似于我们今天所知的互联网。因此，这其中涉及了很多方面。我之所以决定这么做，是因为我受到了一个或两个对经济学和自由主义观念非常感兴趣的学生的影响，其中一个学生在加州理工学院上了两门经济学课程。
So we decided to start looking at this as a market where computers essentially buy and sell programs to execute and their machines and so on. So we started really doing what we call the ecology of computation. It was a big effort which married economics with artificial intelligence and computer. But it became a big thing. And so I became again, it's like falling in love again. It's a new field. I thought it was great. The discovery process of falling in love is half the fun. Absolutely.
所以我们决定开始将其视为一个市场，在这个市场中，电脑基本上是买卖用来执行的程序和机器等等。因此，我们真正开始进行我们称之为计算生态学的工作。这是一项大的努力，将经济学与人工智能和计算机结合在一起。但它变成了一件大事。所以我又沉浸其中，就像再次坠入爱河。这是一个新的领域。我觉得这很棒。发现过程就像是坠入爱河的一半乐趣。确实如此。
And I also was able to, I mean, there is a lot of formalism in economics and some of it is really, I mean, sort of academic. But there are some ideas that are very profound. To the extent that some people consider me an economist sometimes because I think in terms of utility rewards and risk and all this stuff. And as a matter of fact, a lot of the work I'm doing now on resource allocation in networks comes from ideas from economics. When you go into a new field, in order to learn about the field, is that mainly through talking to people in the field, reading books? Both. And it doesn't strike me that you have ever tried to ingratiate yourself into any field. It's not like you're trying to be a member of the field. Like you go in as an observer and a learner.
我也能够理解，这意味着经济学中有很多形式主义，其中一些真的可以说有些学术化。但是，有些想法非常深刻。有时有人甚至把我看作经济学家，因为我思考问题时会考虑效用、回报和风险这些东西。实际上，我目前在网络资源分配方面的很多工作都是来源于经济学的理念。当你进入一个新领域时，为了了解这个领域，主要是通过与该领域的人交流还是读书？两者都有。而且，我感觉你从未试图迎合任何领域，也不是说你试图成为这个领域的一员。你就像一个观察者和学习者进入这个领域。
Yes. I need to say this. I don't think that many people have said that if I stayed in one field, I would have done much better in terms of reputation and so on. As a matter of fact, I can tell you an anecdote that is, you mean like awards and stuff. Yeah. Like for instance, not long ago, I was already doing computers after kills and so on. I won't name the person, but a very good physicist professor at Berkeley came into my office. He says, Bernardo, we have an issue here. I say, what is it? That your name for a membership in the National Academy of Sciences is coming up.
好的，我需要说一下。我觉得很多人没有提到，如果我只专注于一个领域，我可能在声誉等方面会更好。实际上，我可以告诉你一个小故事，比如说奖项之类的。比如不久前，我已经在从事计算机工作了，经历了一些转变，我不会说出那个人的名字，但有一位来自伯克利的很优秀的物理学教授走进我的办公室。他说，Bernardo，我们这里有个问题。我问，是什么问题？他说，你被提名为国家科学院会员的事正在进行中。
I say, oh, that's nice. He said, but it's a problem. I'm not writing papers in physics. You're writing papers in computer science and we need a physics because otherwise the chemists will get that job. The physicists don't like to get it. Like a welcome to academia. Yeah. So I say, well, you want me to do? He said, well, can you graph right one or two more papers on this topic? I said, no, I can't do that. I can't. Well, there's a isn't there a famous story about Feynman and being elected to the National Academy? Yeah, he refused to.
我说，哦，那挺好的。他说，但这是个问题。我不是在写物理学的论文，你在写计算机科学的论文，而我们需要的是物理学的论文，否则化学家们会得到那个职位。物理学家不喜欢看到这种情况，欢迎来到学术界。于是我说，那你想让我做什么？他说，那你能不能再撰写一两篇关于这个主题的论文呢？我说不，我做不到。做不到。哦，有没有一个关于费曼的著名故事，就是他拒绝加入国家科学院。
Yes. Right. He I think they told him he was in the National Academy and then he said, well, what do I do? And I said, well, you elect in other members and he said, I quit. Yeah. Well, yeah. So in any event, I never became a member of the National Academy, but you never sought prizes. No, I mean, I would have liked to get them. Why not? I mean, you know, I'm not. It's not that I said they are meaningless, but there was nothing that I could do about it. And I since I was not, as you said, I was always a little bit of a, you know, always moving on to the next thing, never staying long enough going to these meetings where by now you heard it all, you know, over and over and over again. So yeah.
是的，对。他告诉我他们说他进入了国家科学院，然后他说：“好吧，我该做什么？”我说：“好吧，你可以选举其他成员。”他说：“我退出。” 是的。所以无论如何，我从未成为国家科学院的成员，但你从未追求过奖项。不，我是说，我其实很想得到它们。为什么不呢？我不是说它们毫无意义，但我对此无能为力。正如你所说，我一直是那种，总是往前走，从不停留太久的人。而且参加这些会议，反反复复听到那些已经听过无数次的东西。所以，是的。
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have to say that, you know, like, I mean, as you know, I still have my position at Stanford and teach involved in a little bit of research, but you know, one of the great advantages I had is that all my advisors died or killed themselves. So I was orphaned in science. And so there was never an expectation from my advisors that I do the next thing because they were dead. So I thought about that.
好吧。我得说，虽然我还在斯坦福工作并且参与一些研究，但我确实有一个独特的优势：我的所有导师都去世了或者自杀了，所以我在科学领域就像个孤儿。因为他们都不在了，我没有来自导师的期待或压力去做下一件事。这让我开始思考。
And but I remember when I launched the podcast or started going on podcasts, I remember you being a little bit concerned. You're like, you know, what are your colleagues going to think? And I think at that point, the, um, the way that science was going and the structure of academia relative to what my needs and life were and just a passion to wanting to do something new. I, I put a lot of thought to the fact that you've changed fields many times and I just felt absolutely compelled to get into science communication. And there was no stopping that.
我记得当我启动播客或开始参与播客时，你有些担心。你当时问：“你的同事会怎么看？”我觉得在那个时候，科学的发展和学术界的结构与我的需求和生活并不完全契合，再加上我对新事物的热情。我认真考虑过，因为你也多次改变过研究领域，我感到非常有必要投入到科学传播中去，这种想法让我无法停止。
But I have to thank you. A lot of the reason I was able to take the step to do the podcast in addition to being supported by Lex Friedman's suggestions and a lot of help from others. Um, Joe Rogan and others, but is that I was like, well, that's what you're supposed to do when you hit, when you hit up, when you hit up point and where what you're doing isn't as compelling. You wait for the thing that draws you forward. It seems like you were always drawn forward. I was thinking of carrot and stick.
但是我必须感谢你。我能够迈出这一步去做播客，很大程度上是因为得到了Lex Friedman的建议和其他人的很多帮助，比如Joe Rogan等人。而我这样做的原因之一是，我觉得，当你到达某个阶段，你所做的事情不再那么吸引人时，就应该等待能吸引你前进的东西。你似乎总是能被吸引向前。我想到的是“胡萝卜和棒子”的比喻。
It's not like you disliked where you were. It's that there were some carrot that you identified and you go towards the carrots. And also something very, um, the other day, my wife was actually mentioning, I've been in a sense in our fund. I never had mentors. It's very interesting. So the, the, this, uh, frankly, not terrific graduated by the, he was not my mentor. Really? I mean, you know, he didn't even want me to do the things that I wanted to do. Uh, so I mean, I never had someone who was whispering, Bernard is the guy to, you should be considering for this or that.
这段话的大意是：
并不是说你不喜欢你所在的地方，而是你发现了一些吸引你的“胡萝卜”并朝着它们前进。而且还有件事情，很有趣。前几天，我的妻子提到，我在我们的基金中，从某种意义上来说，从来没有过导师。这很有意思。坦率地说，那位并不出色的毕业生其实并不是我的导师。真的，他甚至都不希望我做我自己想做的事情。所以，我从来没有过一个人在我耳边说，伯纳德（Bernard）是你应该考虑的人选。
I mean, I had the fortune to really get to the top of many of these fields and I interacting with the top people. I mean, we talk about fine man, there are many very famous people that I respected mentally that I met, uh, when I was in France, you know, I was teaching there. I met people that are brilliant and so on. And I felt treated with tremendous amount of respect as a colleague and so on. But I never had mentors in that sense.
我的意思是，我有幸在这些领域中达到顶尖水平，并与顶尖人物交流过。比如谈到费曼，还有许多我尊敬的著名人士，我在法国的时候见过他们。当时我在法国教书，遇到了一些非常聪明的人。我感受到作为同事受到极大的尊重等等。但是，我从来没有那种意义上的导师。
And also as I said, I, I am a little bit restless. Uh, I am very curious about everything. And so, you know, sometimes I see something and I say, oh, there's an opportunity to do something interesting. I think that the issue of being curious is extremely important. And it's interesting because I reflect a lot on my father. My father was an immensely curious person, but all about details. He never liked abstractions of any kind. He was very proud that he went to the same school I went and the only course he flaked was philosophy because he said it doesn't make any sense.
正如我所说的，我有点坐不住。我对所有事情都充满好奇。有时我看到某些东西，就觉得这里有一个做些有趣事情的机会。我认为，好奇心是非常重要的。这很有趣，因为我时常想起我的父亲。他是一个对细节有极大好奇心的人，但从来不喜欢任何抽象的东西。他很自豪地说，他上过和我一样的学校，而唯一一个他不及格的课程就是哲学，因为他说这毫无意义。
Now, perhaps he was right about that. You know, sometimes you wondered about what these philosophers talk about. A couple of months ago, uh, in Denmark, we were invited, uh, my wife and I to a dinner with philosophers, talking about artificial intelligence. I thought that his people were, they didn't really know what was going on. But nevertheless, uh, yes, I am curious and sometimes I move on to things.
现在，也许他在这方面是对的。你知道，有时候你会对这些哲学家讨论的内容感到疑惑。几个月前，我和我妻子在丹麦被邀请参加一个与哲学家们的晚宴，他们在讨论人工智能。我觉得这些人并不真正了解发生了什么。不过，尽管如此，我确实感到好奇，有时候也会继续去探索这些事情。
And I feel that the reward, the internal reward you get from doing something new and interesting and exciting is much better than a recognition that someone will come and say, you know, whatever. I mean, don't mean to understand this, I mean, I was not saying no to a recognition. And I, but it's not really that I'm, I, I do this in order to get that. That's not me at all.
我觉得，来自于做一些新的、有趣的和令人兴奋的事情的内在奖励，比别人过来认可你说“你知道吗，怎样怎样”要好多了。我并不是说我不想要认可，我的意思是，我并不是为了得到认可而去做这些事情。这完全不是我的动机。
Yeah. I mean, the, the whole thing, it sort of brings my thinking back to like the, the early discussions about, you know, other students are not interested in physics. You're interested in physics. Other people are like smoking a lot of weed and, and partying like, no, like, like you said, you, you've not had mentors.
是的，我的意思是，这整件事情让我想起了最初的一些讨论，比如说，其他学生对物理并不感兴趣，而你对物理很感兴趣。其他人可能忙着抽大麻、开派对，而你并没有像你说的那样有过导师。
That's one area in which you and I have been very different. I've always attached myself to mentors. Many of them. Many of them. I mean, well, there might be a psychological reason too. Yeah. Yeah. That you need this, you know, or need it at one point, I got these parental type figures. Yeah.
在这一点上，你我一直有很大的不同。我总是给自己找很多导师，许多导师。我想，这背后可能也有一些心理上的原因。是的，是的。可能是因为你需要这种指导，或者曾经在某个阶段需要它，我找到了这些像父母一样的榜样。
I said, yeah, it might be, I wish I had them. Don't misunderstand me. I, I, as a matter of fact, I mean, my influence on my students, I produce more than 15 PhDs. It's also strange because none of them stay in, stay in physics. Now, the department at Stanford, not too happy with that. It's not that I told them not to, but they all smelled that, you know, I, I was doing something else.
我说，是的，可能是这样，我真希望我拥有那些东西。别误解我。事实上，我的意思是，我对我的学生有影响，我培养了超过15位博士生。奇怪的是，他们中没有一个继续留在物理学领域。斯坦福的部门对此不太满意。并不是我告诉他们不去做物理，但他们都感觉到，我在从事其他事情。
I mean, you know, from computers, I became very aware of what was going on, very early on with the internet. As you know, I started doing all this stuff on social long before anyone was doing an economics, our attention and all that stuff. Many of these students, the other day, I found one of them, I met one, a lot of damage who, you know, I think you, you just early at Google.
我的意思是，你知道，通过计算机，我很早就对互联网的发展非常了解。你也知道，我在很久以前就开始涉足社交媒体领域，远早于其他人在经济学、注意力等方面的研究。前几天我遇到了一些学生，其中一个我认识的人在谷歌工作，我认为他们中的很多人都受到了影响。
No, she went to Facebook. And the other day, she wrote me a note. I was so lucky that I met you. She was going to do a thesis and I don't know what solar collecting solar is. Yeah. You've collected some pretty interesting students. They're like a pretty, we won't name names other than than laws, but like some of them are, are very well known people in the tech industry now.
不，她去了Facebook。有一天，她给我写了一张便条。她说：我很幸运遇到了你。她要做一个关于太阳能收集的论文，但我对太阳能收集一无所知。是的，你真的吸引了一些很有趣的学生。他们都很优秀，虽然这里不方便透露名字，但他们中的一些现在在科技行业已经是非常知名的人物了。
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that, yeah, it seemed like the people that would gravitate towards you. It's interesting, your laboratory is off campus. So anyone that decides to be off campus is already making a choice toward like, they don't want to be part of the standard culture. I think that was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
哦，是的。是的。我认为那些被你吸引过来的人，嗯，这很有趣，因为你的实验室是在校外的。所以，任何决定去校外的人，都已经做出了不想融入传统文化的选择。我觉得这很有趣。是的。是的。是的。
So let me, I want to get back to this issue of like internet and Silicon Valley. I recall it was the early 90s. So it'd be like 89, 90, 91. Remember I had this, this girlfriend Gretchen, remembering her dad was the editor of guitar player magazine. And I'll, I'll never forget. He told me, he said, you know, it's, it's going to be all about multimedia. Remember that? No one talks about multimedia. He said your, your television is going to be your computer is going to be your stereo is going to be, he was, he was right. Right? He was basically everything was going to be synthesized into common devices.
让我回到关于互联网和硅谷的这个话题。我记得是在90年代初期，大概是1989年、1990年、1991年。我那时候有个女朋友叫Gretchen，记得她的爸爸是《吉他玩家》杂志的编辑。我永远不会忘记，他曾经告诉我，说未来将是多媒体的时代。还记得吗？现在已经没人提多媒体这个概念了。他说，你的电视、电脑、音响都会合而为一。他说得对吧？他的意思是，所有东西都会融合成常见的设备。
And we now know that, that, that were not to be true. But at what point did you decide that things like computers were mainly going to be a route to industry and not to academia? This, this is really important, I think for people to understand because right now it's kind of happening in biomedical sciences. But you see this at Stanford, people get degrees in computer science, but not to become computer science professors sometimes, but really so that they can go into industry.
我们现在知道，那并不是真的。但是，你是在什么时候决定像计算机这样的事物主要是通往工业而不是学术界的途径呢？我认为这个问题很重要，因为现在在生物医学科学领域也正在发生同样的事情。在斯坦福大学，你会看到人们获得计算机科学学位，有时并不是为了成为计算机科学教授，而是为了进入工业界。
So how do you see nowadays, like for people that are interested in science or technology, do they need to go to graduate school? Like is a PhD useful anymore? Peter Theta says, you shouldn't even get a bachelor's. I think that's what he, you know, I think he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's I mean, I, I have great respect for Peter, great respect for Peter.
所以你怎么看现在的情况，对于那些对科学或技术感兴趣的人，他们需要去读研究生吗？像博士学位还有用吗？彼得·蒂尔说，你甚至不需要拿到学士学位。我认为这是他的观点。要说明的是，我非常尊重彼得，非常尊重他。
There are a lot of things that are easier to say when you're already a billionaire. No, no, no, like, like, Steve Joe saying, you know, passion is everything. Right. I mean, it's necessary, but not sufficient. Right, right. Right. Necessary, but not sufficient. So I think that what's happening today, I mean technology, we are going through a technological revolution. There's no doubt about it. We used to learn about the printing press and now it's the same thing with computers.
当你已经成为亿万富翁时，有很多事情说起来容易得多。比如说，史蒂夫·乔布斯说“热情就是一切”，对吧。我是说，热情很重要，但这还不够，对吧，对吧。重要但不够充分。所以我认为现在正在发生的事情是，我们正在经历一场技术革命。这无疑是真的。过去我们学习印刷机的历史，现在计算机的情况也是如此。
I still remember and I, you know, we, this is amazing because, you know, today's so, so obvious. I mean, people didn't know much what was going on. I parked everything. One night we were having for dinner, I remember, you know, Emmanuel Minnio, who was, you know, they discovered the Orexian hyperkreaton relationship. That's the cause of narcolepsies of mutation. Yeah. It was a friend of ours and his wife, they were home with our dinner and I was telling them, I was telling them that you could go to a computer and go through the Louvre museum in Paris and they say, what are you talking about? So we finished dinner and we all drove to park at night and I turned on my computer and there was a man, they still remember his name, something Pioch was the last name. He had gone taking pictures of every painting that they lived and put them on online so you could just navigate through the Louvre. Today's obvious, trivial. At that time they couldn't believe it. There you are in Palo Alto and an evening going through all the rooms of the Louvre. They just couldn't understand what was going on. What year was this? I don't remember it but it was just the day before.
我仍然记得，那时我们都觉得这件事情太不可思议了。现在这已经稀松平常，但当时大家并不了解那些技术的发展。有一天晚上，我们正和朋友们共进晚餐，我记得有位名叫Emmanuel Minnio的朋友，他和他的妻子来家里吃饭。他发现了Orexian hyperkreaton关系，这是导致嗜睡症的突变原因。当时我告诉他们，可以用电脑游览巴黎的卢浮宫，他们听完后非常惊讶，问我在说些什么。于是我们吃完晚饭，晚上我们一起去了公园，我打开电脑，一名叫Pioch的人拍摄了卢浮宫里每一幅画的照片并上传到网上，通过电脑就可以浏览卢浮宫。现如今这样的技术已司空见惯，但在当时，他们完全无法理解。就在帕洛阿尔托的一个晚上，我们通过电脑浏览了卢浮宫的每个展厅。这种体验当时让他们难以相信。这是哪一年？我不太记得，但仿佛就在昨天一般。
When the web started coming, you know, that was, you know, right before. So we all had to get email in college in the year 97. So it must have been somewhere around like 94, 94. Something of that sort, right before, right at the time and reason made the web available to everybody basically, you know, Netscape, you know. So in any event, so it was an amazing thing. It was amazing.
当网络开始出现时，那是在之前不久。所以我们在1997年上大学时都必须使用电子邮件。所以这大概是在1994年左右，差不多在那个时候，因为某种原因，网络基本上对所有人开放了，你知道的，像是Netscape。因此，无论如何，那都是一件令人惊叹的事情，真的很令人惊叹。
Now, all these developments were really done in companies, non-necessary in academia. Okay, that is an interesting point. And I think that today an immense amount of the advances that we see in biotechnology, in computers, in everything are essentially done, I would say, for profit by companies. Okay, I think social networks, we started doing social networks at a time when no one even thought of doing it. I used to do social science with a capitalist because sociologists used to study the behavior of five widows in some Norway, Norwegian village and write a paper. We could look at 150,000 people, how do they visit this side or not side and predict how we were able to predict behaviors, you know. So I think that today everybody knows that that's the case and it's the same thing with artificial intelligence.
现在，所有这些发展实际上是在公司中完成的，而不是必然在学术界进行的。好，这是一点很有趣的地方。我认为，如今我们所看到的大量生物技术、计算机等方面的进步基本上都是由公司出于盈利目的完成的。我想，社交网络就是一个例子，我们开始做社交网络的时候，几乎没有人想到要去做。我过去和一个资本家一起进行社会科学研究，因为社会学家通常会研究挪威某个村庄里五位寡妇的行为然后写论文。而我们可以分析15万人，看看他们如何访问某个网站，从中预测行为。因此我认为，现在每个人都知道这是事实，在人工智能领域也是如此。
But for a kid in high school or kids in college or kids, I mean, is it worth getting a graduate education? Well, it all depends on what you want to do. I mean, law, medicine, you need a, I mean, those are, you need the professional degree. I mean, these are ultimately professional degrees. So you need the training. I want a surgeon that didn't go to medical school. Okay, but the danger is you'd, and I remember a very, very bright guy I had in my, in my team, you don't want to become a blue color worker. See, what I'm saying is a following being a hacker or being to deal with software is an, it was an incredibly profitable profession. Now you have these large language models that can actually program for you. You need to write a program. You go to charge ETP and you'll write it for you. So suddenly, you know, if you don't have a set of talents, a way of imagining things of doing something, you become basically just someone like, just hacks for, you know, for so many dollars an hour. Now it's true that they can give you options if the company does well, you get rich and so on. But I still believe that you need some, some contextual cultural part of this.
对于一名高中生或大学生来说，是否值得接受研究生教育呢？这完全取决于你的职业目标。像法律和医学这样专业领域，需要获得专业学位，因为这些是最终的职业资格，需要系统的培训。我希望医生肯定是接受过医学教育的。不过，问题在于我曾经的一个非常聪明的队员的故事，你可能不想成为蓝领工人。我的意思是，曾经从事黑客工作或软件开发是个非常赚钱的职业。然而，现在有了大型语言模型，它们可以为你编程。比如说，你需要写一个程序，只要去找一个程序生成工具，它就能为你写好。所以突然间，如果你没有一定的才能，缺乏想象力与创造力，你可能就变成了一个只靠每小时收取费用过活的普通人。当然，有时候公司可能会给你期权，如果公司表现良好，你可能会致富，但我仍然相信，了解一些背景知识和文化是很重要的。
Okay. Now I personally believe that humanities and all sorts of other things are very important and to understand where is your cultural environment? Where are you coming from and where is the society going is important. But on the other hand, as you said, you can just finish high school and start hacking and become very good at it. And that doesn't require much more than that. Do you think the examples of like to suck, Elon, you know, and others, you know, going from, you know, essentially departing standard education to start companies? Do you think they've served? I mean, certainly not talking about the companies, but do you think those examples are good examples for people to internalize or they just, are they unicorns? Well, I think that they are unicorns and you have to be very careful. We only talk about the success stories. We don't go and interview the guy that is loading a landscaping truck because his startup didn't go anywhere. Okay. So it is a very, our tendency to see these people as heroes and to try to imitate them is a very dangerous one, I think.
好吧。我个人认为，人文学科和其他各种领域都非常重要，了解你的文化环境、来源以及社会的发展方向很重要。但另一方面，正如你所说，你可以高中毕业后直接开始钻研技术，并在这方面变得非常优秀，这并不需要太多额外的教育。你觉得那些没有按照传统教育路径而是选择创办公司的例子，比如扎克伯格、埃隆·马斯克，还有其他人，他们的经历是否值得人们去效仿？他们算是好的榜样吗，还是说他们只是少数特例？
我认为，他们是特例，你需要非常谨慎。我们只关注成功的故事，没有去采访那些因为创业失败而只能装载园艺卡车的人。所以，我觉得把这些人视为英雄并试图模仿他们是非常危险的倾向。
Now that doesn't mean that you should not be working on the things you care and un-cambled. But these are the guys who played a lottery and won. Do you remember there were many other websites, social websites before, you know, Facebook and they all died and Facebook could have died too. I mean, Zachar might disagree with me, but you know, it could have died. Okay. And, you know, all these things are like that. Apple, when almost under, they brought Steve Jobs again and the guy put them into, you know, into the stratosphere. And the same thing with Elon Musk, he said, high-tech risk taker. And so far, every time he flips the coin, he comes the right way. But to say, I want to be like him, you have to be very careful and to calculate the odds. Okay. So when you say this, how many of these kids really make it? I mean, it's a very complicated thing.
这并不意味着你不应该去做你关心的事情或不确定的事情。但那些成功的人就像是中了彩票。他们赢了。还记得在Facebook出现之前，有很多社交网站吗？它们都消失了，Facebook也有可能消失。我想扎克伯格可能不同意，但确实有可能。而且，这种情况很多。比如苹果公司曾经濒临破产，却因重新启用史蒂夫·乔布斯而腾飞。同样的，埃隆·马斯克作为高科技冒险者，每次做决定都仿佛掷硬币但总能成功。然而，如果你想要像他们一样成功，就必须非常小心，计算清楚成功的概率。所以，当你说想成为这样的人时，要考虑到到底能有多少人真正成功呢？这是一个非常复杂的问题。
So I think that to have a strong background in something will help you when suddenly they feel switches from being a programmer and making a lot of money to suddenly program and start, you know, a dime a dozen or becoming a technician, basically. Okay. I mean, I had a perfectly thriving career as a lab scientist with grants and private funding and a bunch of other things publishing regularly. And when I decided to switch to this, were you worried? No, because I saw it as a very slow departure from what you were doing. And I saw the success very early on. I mean, I realized that you were essentially satisfying two things that are very important to you. You like to explain things. You're incredibly good at explaining things since you were a little kid.
所以，我觉得有扎实的基础会帮助你，因为当你从一个赚很多钱的程序员突然转变为一个程序员需求过多或者基本上变成技术员的时候，会有帮助。好吧。我本人有一份非常成功的实验室科学家职业生涯，有资助和私人资金支持，还定期发表论文。当我决定转行时，你担心吗？不，因为我看到这与你之前做的事情是一个非常缓慢的过渡。我很早就看到了成功。我意识到你实际上在满足对你来说非常重要的两件事：你喜欢解释事物。从小起你就特别擅长解释事物。
Okay. You were always explaining everything to people and you have a talent. Let's face it. I mean, you know, I'm not saying this because I want to flatter you. I really believe that. Everybody says the success of your podcast is a success at explaining things in ways that people understand. They don't have to go and buy a book on New York anatomy to understand what you're saying. So I knew that this was a path. Now, I didn't realize how incredible the path was. And there was a lot of randomness in it. For instance, you started podcasting at a time when very few people were podcasting. If you start today, the story would be a very different one.
好的。你总是向大家解释各种事情，而且你很有天赋。不得不承认，我这么说并不是为了奉承你，而是发自内心的相信。大家都说，你的播客成功的秘密就是能够以让人容易理解的方式解释事情。听众不需要去买一本纽约解剖学的书来理解你在说什么。所以，我早就知道这是一条可行的道路。不过当时我并没有意识到这条路能如此精彩，其中也有很多偶然因素。例如，你在很少有人做播客的时候就开始了。如果你是今天开始，这个故事可能会截然不同。
Yeah. The timing was the pandemic. People were home. They were saying podcast. And this brings to something to me that many times people have asked me about me. What makes me do what I do? I believe in the idea of walking on beaches with very few footprints. And you're going to a crowded field is a mess. So many of the times that I move into something else is when I realize that there's a mob scene of scientists working at this and the chances of doing something interesting are very, very small. Okay. The internet has a lot of information to go everywhere.
是的，那个时候正好是疫情期间，大家都待在家里，听播客。这让我想到很多人常常问的一个问题：是什么驱动我做我所做的事情？我信奉的一种理念是走在沙滩上尽量不留下太多脚印。也就是说，如果一个领域里人太多，那就会很杂乱。因此，很多时候，当我进入一个新领域的时候，就是因为我意识到这个领域已经有很多科学家在研究了，而做出有趣成果的机会非常小。互联网有很多信息可以传播到各个地方。
A guy in Zambia can actually read the same things that I read here. So it's very hard to compete against such crowd. And many people are brilliant and many of them are smart. So you started something very early on and you were lucky that you chose a field. That resonates with the needs of people. Okay. There are also other people who do podcasting and go nowhere. So I think that I never worried. I actually was, you know, elated to see the trajectory of your podcast. The only thing is you have a tenure position. And that is a nice safety cushion. Everything else where today you're beyond the reach of justice, as I say. So no problem.
在赞比亚的一个人实际可以阅读我在这里读到的同样内容。所以在这样的环境中竞争非常困难。许多人都很聪明，也有许多聪明才智出众的人。因此，你很早就开始了一项工作，并幸运地选择了一个符合人们需求的领域。好的。也有其他人做播客却一无所获。所以我觉得我从未担心过。实际上，看到你的播客的发展轨迹，我感到很振奋。唯一的不同是你有一个终身职位，这是一个很好的安全保障。除此之外，今天你已经超越了挑战的范围，所以没问题。
You know, you don't need it in a sense. There's no one's beyond the reach of justice. But yeah, I still maintain my tenure position. I spoke to my chairman and optimality this morning and I'll teach the spring or anything. And it's good for you to really to interact with young people and to hear what they did care and so on. But I never worry in the sense that I thought that you have enough talent to do well and you chose to do it. I mean, I remember during COVID at the beginning, you were, we were at your sister's house and you were drawing all these little diagrams. I showed up my drawings. Yeah, yeah. So I think you put them on Twitter or something or that sort. And it was the beginning of something much more interesting and important. And so I never worried about it.
你知道，从某种意义上说，你不需要它。没有人能逃脱正义的制裁。但是，我仍然保留我的终身职位。我今天早上和我的系主任谈过了，春季学期我会继续教书。与年轻人互动，听听他们的关注是一件好事。不过，我从来不担心，因为我知道你有足够的才能去做好你选择的事情。我记得在新冠刚开始的时候，我们在你姐姐家，你在画一些小图。我展示了我的画作，是的，我想你把它们放在了推特上之类的。这是某种程度上更有趣和更重要的事情的开始，所以我从没担心过。
I think that all of us, the whole family and those who know you are sort of impressed at the explosive success of this story here, you know, your podcast is amazing. I mean, I don't have to tell you. That's why we're flexing kind of an early compulsion more than anything of learn and teach, learn and share. Yeah, but there's also, I need to say something. The other day, actually, we were watching your interview with Esther Perel in regard to the fact that I think it's a great interview. Both my wife and I were reflecting on the fact that it's also an incredible tribute to the way you conduct an interview.
我认为，我们全家，以及所有认识你的人，都对这个故事的巨大成功感到佩服。你的播客非常出色，这一点我不需要再强调。因此，我们一直有一种早期的冲动，就是学习并教授，学习并分享。但我还需要补充一点。前几天，我们观看了你与埃斯特·佩雷尔的访谈，我认为这次访谈很精彩。我妻子和我都在想，这次访谈也充分展示了你进行采访的出色方式。
Okay. So there is a talent there. I mean, not many people can take someone and talk for, and make it interesting. Let's put it that way. So you have that. I inherited your curiosity. No, but it's more than that. It's also a way of drawing people out and so on, which is also part of your practice. So I never had any doubts at the opposite. I mean, the issue is, you know, obviously you're taking it to many, many places, beyond what you started, which was essentially explained to people how neuroscience works, right? Yeah, we've gone into a lot of health domains and other things. And I've also been blessed with an amazing team.
好的，所以这里确实有一种天赋。我的意思是，不是很多人都能轻松与他人交谈并让对话变得有趣。可以这么说，你确实具备这种能力。我也继承了你的好奇心。不过，这不仅仅是好奇心的问题，更是一种引导他人开口的能力，这也是你的一项实践技能。所以，我从未对此有过疑虑，恰恰相反。问题是，你显然已经将这种能力运用到许多不同领域，超出了最初解释神经科学如何运作的范围，对吧？是的，我们涉足了许多健康领域和其他方面。而且，我还幸运地拥有了一支出色的团队。
This is something that I think while we share a lot of things in common, if I may, I mean, I've always been kind of a pack animal. You know, if it was skateboarding, like draw friends together, if it's birds, I have my bird club with Eddie Chang, who now, as you know, is a chair of neurosurgery at UCSF. It's kind of wild to think about. But yeah, I've rarely gone alone. Like I'm just struck. I mean, I mean, we've had many conversations over the years, but I'm just struck at how you've been able to be, you've been a bit of a lone wolf with these different camps. You make friends, you have colleagues, you maintain long-term relationships. The roots of people who collaborate with me, I don't release alone. Right. Right. But there's, I haven't changed crowds very often.
虽然我们有很多共同点，但我一直以来都是群居动物。比如说，以前玩滑板时，我总是喜欢和朋友们一起玩。如果说到养鸟，我和张艾迪有个鸟类俱乐部。 说起来挺不可思议的，你也知道他现在是 UCSF 的神经外科主席。可我很少单独行动。就是说，我们多年来有过很多对话，但我印象深刻的是你如何能够在不同的圈子里独来独往。你结交朋友，有同事，并维持长期的关系。我与人合作的根基从来不是独自一人的。而且，我并没有经常更换圈子。
You know, and it seems like you've had to go into economics and theoretical physics and all these things. And yeah, that's an interesting difference. And look, I don't think I'm thrilling at the same time. Sometimes when you start giving talks in a field that you've never done much before, and you see this audience, you know, come intimidating too. You know, even when I started doing chaos, I thought I was doing very well till I gave a talk at Berkeley, and there was a mathematician. I regard mathematicians as the top, top people in the world. And I was saying something, and a guy, he's very famous mathematician, he said, that's a lie. I said, what do you mean? He said, can you prove it? No, because, you know, physicists don't prove theorems. He said, well, then he's a lie. You cannot prove it's a lie. It was quite a, you know, a cold shower.
你知道啊，看起来你不得不涉足经济学、理论物理学这些领域。这是一个有趣的区别。说实话，我并不觉得自己很有魅力。有时候，当你开始在一个不太熟悉的领域做演讲，看到台下的观众，确实会感到有点吓人。我刚开始研究混沌理论的时候，自认为做得挺好，直到我在伯克利大学做演讲。当时台下有一位数学家，我一直认为数学家是世界上最顶尖的人。我讲了一些内容，那位非常有名的数学家直接说：“这是假的。”我问他是什么意思。他说：“你能证明吗？”当然不能，因为物理学家通常不证明定理。他说：“那就是假的。你不能证明的就是假的。”这对我来说真的是一个冷水浴。
And that happens to me on Twitter every now and again. Well, if they'll find something where I misspoke and they do it, and it's super embarrassing, you correct yourself, you move on. No, no, and then you learn things too. If you have a conversation with someone. And you never forget those things. This is what I learned. Like, you never forget the errors you made. Like, on a qualifying exam, most people will never take a qualifying exam. But they basically ask you questions until you get it something wrong. The moment you say, I don't know or you get something wrong, that's an important moment because it's also the thing that you go look up and you never forget.
这在推特上时不时会发生在我身上。如果有人发现我哪里说错了，他们就会指出来，这真的特别尴尬。但你会纠正自己，然后继续前进。你也会从中学到一些东西。比如当你和别人交流时，有些事情你永远不会忘记。我学到的是：你永远不会忘记自己犯过的错误。就像在资格考试中，大多数人可能不会参加这样的考试，但他们基本上会不停地问问题，直到你回答错误。你说“我不知道”或者答错的那一刻是个重要的时刻，因为你会去查找正确答案，并永远记住它。
Yeah, right. And then also the tiny humiliations can be very good too for you. I mean, this is very important. I know. I know. I know. I do too. I mean, I think it's a very, very important part of growing up and discovering that you don't understand something. But I always, I need to say this. I mean, in spite of fact that, you know, you paint me as a lone wolf, I'm not. I'm very social and I interact, I love interacting with people. And I always been very lucky that I surround myself with groups of people, including today that are brilliant and resonate with the kinds of things I want to do. And so it's very stimulating. I'm not the kind of person that sits in a corner and does theories and publish it.
当然。然后那些微不足道的挫折对你来说也可能是很好的。我是说，这真的很重要。我知道，我知道，我也知道。我认为这是成长中非常重要的一部分，让你意识到自己并不总是对所有事情都了解。但我需要说明一下，尽管你可能觉得我是个孤独的狼，但我不是。我非常喜欢社交，喜欢与人互动。我一直很幸运，能与一群很聪明并且和我想做的事情有共鸣的人在一起，包括今天。这样的环境非常具有刺激性。我并不是那种坐在角落里思考理论并发表的人。
I publish papers on my own. That was my romantic period where I needed to be Einstein in the patent office. Not that I thought I was Einstein, but it was very important. I was the only author. Okay. Today, I don't mind putting my name, whatever. And I don't need it. I mean, I have hundreds of papers and lots, you know, more than enough patents and so on. So I like, I like interacting with people. It's very, very important to me. And I have an idea. I need to tell people about an idea. So I can relate. Yes. Yes.
我自己发表论文。那是我充满浪漫情怀的时期，就像爱因斯坦在专利局工作时一样。不是说我自认为是爱因斯坦，但这对我来说非常重要。那时候我是唯一的作者。现在，我不介意在任何地方署名，也没有这个必要。因为我已经发表了数百篇论文和拥有足够多的专利。我喜欢与人交流，对我来说这非常重要。我有了想法，就想告诉别人，所以我非常能够理解。是的，是的。
So that's very good. And I still see some of my old students and collaborators like, you know, Ted and so on. And we take walks every once in a while and discuss things, you know. And so I learned a lot from him too. Right now you're working, as I understand, on quantum internet. Yes. This is a mysterious term to most everybody. Yes. Yes. You alluded to it earlier about quantum entanglement. Yes. But my understanding is that foreign governments, countries, and our government and country, are very interested in quantum internet. Yes. That it might actually be at least as important as AI, maybe more important for security reasons, et cetera. Can you explain quantum internet in a way that I can understand in the list? Yes. I can explain. I mean, I'll tell you the original thing. Quantum mechanics was essentially finished in 1925. So we are not reinventing new physics here. OK. There's the physics of the gravitation and quantum, but that's not really what we're talking about. What happens is they're following the basis of all secure interactions in the internet on computers are based on the idea that there are certain mathematical equations or functions that are very hard to resolve.
所以这很好。我偶尔还会见到一些以前的学生和合作伙伴，比如Ted，我们会一起散步，讨论一些事情。我也从他身上学到了很多东西。据我所知，你现在正在研究量子互联网。是的，对大多数人来说，这是一个神秘的词。是的是的。你之前提到了量子纠缠。没错。据我了解，外国政府和我们国家的政府对量子互联网都非常感兴趣。它可能至少和人工智能一样重要，也许在安全层面上更重要。你能用一种我能理解的方式解释量子互联网吗？可以，我来解释一下。其实量子力学在1925年就基本完成了，所以我们并不是在重新发明新的物理学。这里有引力和量子的物理学，但这不是我们要讨论的。实际上，互联网和计算机上所有安全交互的基础是基于某些数学方程或函数，这些东西很难被破解。
So when I send you something encoded, if someone is listening to that conversation, that is encoded, and tries to read it, it's very, very hard to do because in order to decode that code is some kind of symbols and so on, you need to, I don't know, months or years of a computer to do it. OK. But it can be done. Computers get broken. Computer codes get broken all the time because the basis of these codes are mathematical functions. You have a mathematical function. You can create a computer program that will try to unravel it. And it can be unrollable. OK, so that's one thing.
所以，当我给你发送加密信息时，如果有人在监听这段对话，他们会发现这段信息是加密的，想要读取它是非常困难的。因为要解码这些符号和加密代码，可能需要计算机用几个月甚至几年的时间。但这并不是不可能的。计算机可能会被攻破，计算机代码也会被破解，因为这些代码的基础是数学函数。如果你有一个数学函数，就可以创建一个计算机程序来尝试解开它。这是可以被解开的。所以，这是一个方面。
Now here comes quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics provides security that is not given by mathematics, but by the laws of physics. So if you have a way of interacting, sending messages from one computer to the other, encrypted using quantum mechanisms, they cannot be broken. Can you give me an example of a quantum mechanism for encoding information? Imagine, imagine that I'm sending you messages. Every message is encoded in binary, one's and zero. OK, so I'm sending a message, which is a string of one's and zero's. That string of one's and zero's could be hello Andrew or could also be something that is secretly encoded into something. If it's classical encryption, which is what we use today, a computer in principle can look at those symbols and unravel them.
现在引入量子力学。量子力学提供的安全性不是由数学提供的，而是由物理法则提供的。因此，如果你有一种方式来相互互动，用量子机制加密的方式从一台计算机向另一台计算机发送消息，那这些消息将无法被破解。能给我一个用量子机制编码信息的例子吗？想象一下，我正在给你发送消息。每条消息都是用二进制编码的，也就是用1和0表示的。好，我发送的信息是一个由1和0组成的字符串。这个1和0的字符串可能代表"hello Andrew"（你好，安德鲁），也可能是某个秘密编码的内容。如果使用的是经典加密技术，也就是我们今天所用的方式，原则上，一台计算机可以查看这些符号并解码它们。
Now let me tell you how it works in quantum. In quantum, when I send you a quantum message, the act of touching it, trying to look at it, destroys it. That's what happens in quantum, not in classical thing. I can look at the strings of one's and zero's and I look at them and I can make a copy of it and then I read them, I take into my lab and I decrypt them. OK, if I look at a string of quantomb bits moving, there are not ones and zeros, there are different things. These are moving parts. They're moving parts. Usually photons can use fiber optics. You can use them. So these are photons. I know photons are. So they're bouncing energy away. Yeah, they're bouncing energy away. Yeah, little bunches. Yeah, because photons, if they're going around, they're also, you know, the photon could be polarized up or down or whatever.
现在让我告诉你量子是如何运作的。在量子世界里，当我发送给你一条量子信息时，任何试图接触或观察它的行为都会将其破坏。这是量子情况下的特性，而不是经典情况。在经典信息处理中，我可以查看由0和1组成的字符串，复制并解读它们。然而，如果我查看一串正在移动的量子比特，它们不是简单的0和1，而是不同的元素。这些元素在不断移动，通常是通过光纤传输的光子。我们可以使用这些光子。我理解光子，它们会反射能量。没错，这些是小的能量群，因为光子在移动过程中可能会有不同的极化状态，比如向上或向下等。
But if it's in a quantum state, which is in the intermediate between, the moment I look at it, the moment I capture it, I collapse it into one of the other and I destroy it. The interaction with it changes. The measurement destroys it. This is the mystery of quantum mechanics that the measurement collapses. We call it the work collapses into one state or the other. Before that, it was anything. We could be anything. So when I use quantum signals, I'm sending qubits, quantum bits, they're called qubits. The act of observing the qubit renders into a classical one or zero. So then there's no way you cannot break it.
如果一个事物处于量子态，那是介于两种状态之间的。当我观察或捕捉它时，我会使它坍缩到这两种状态之一，同时摧毁了原来的状态。与它的相互作用因此发生改变。测量会摧毁它。这就是量子力学的奥秘：测量会导致坍缩。我们称之为坍缩成一个确定的状态。在此之前，它可以是任何状态。所以当我使用量子信号时，我在发送量子比特，它们被称为量子位。观察量子位的行为会使它成为经典的0或1。因此，你没有办法不改变它。
So does that mean that the practical implementation of this? Yes. Equates to unbreakable code. Exactly. Which is why, of course, other governments, I mean, what I've been told is that in China, they're working very hard on this. Oh, absolutely. And that here we're working very hard. We are working. I'm working too. And you're working very hard on this. Yeah. So, but who's there? Has anyone gotten there yet? Okay. The problem is the following. In order to decrypt this, do you remember that I told you that you can use mathematics, okay? Some of these functions are incredibly complex. It might take the edge of the universe perhaps to decode them mathematically. Let's not talk about quads.
这是否意味着实际应用了吗？是的。这相当于不可破解的代码。完全正确。这就是为什么，当然，其他国家政府——我所听到的是，在中国，他们正在非常努力地研究这一点。确实如此。而且在这里我们也在非常努力地研究。我们在工作，我也在工作，你也在这方面努力。嗯，那谁领先呢？有没有人已经实现了？好，问题是这样的。为了解密这个，你还记得我跟你说过可以用数学吗？有些函数极为复杂，也许需要用宇宙边缘的计算能力来解码它们。我们先不讨论量子计算。
But if you have a quantum computer, now we're talking about a quantum computer, it can do it in a couple of hours. A quantum computer could decode any mathematical function of the ones used in encryption in hours. Whereas it would take the edge of the universe for a monster computer, standard computer you can buy to do it. So in theory, whoever gets this ability first can read essentially all the information that's being sent around the world. Not only that. And many people are doing the Chinese, the Koreans, and we're doing. They are grabbing everything now that is encrypted. They cannot decrypt it. And they store it because someday they'll be able to decrypt it. But who knows if it will still be relevant? Oh, but it may be. And we don't know what they have.
如果你有一台量子计算机——现在我们在讨论量子计算机——它可以在几个小时内完成某些计算。量子计算机可以在几个小时内破解用于加密的任何数学函数。而普通的超级计算机，即使是你可以买到的顶尖计算机，也需要花上宇宙浩劫般长的时间才能做到这一点。所以理论上，谁先掌握这种能力，谁就能读取全球传输的所有信息。不仅如此，很多人正在这样做，像中国人、韩国人，还有我们。现在他们正在获取所有加密的信息。尽管目前还无法解密，但他们将其存储起来，因为未来有一天他们可能会解密它们。但是谁知道这些信息到时是否还会有意义呢？哦，也许会有意义。而且我们不知道他们已掌握了多少信息。
Imagine. Imagine if you can't get. Remember when North Korea hacked, what was it, Disney? One of the, and then they discovered all these emails where people, like George Clooney, I don't know who was complaining about this or that. So imagine. And worse. And worse. We just didn't hear about that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if you grab all this information, we cannot decrypt it today. But if quantum computers become available and there are people working on quantum computing, they'll be able to decrypt it. In the meantime, people are working on deploying these quantum networks. We're working on that too, not to deploy them, but just to see whether or not it's feasible to do that. Okay.
想象一下。想象如果你无法获得这些信息。还记得之前北朝鲜黑客攻击的事情吗？是什么公司呢，迪士尼？其中之一，然后他们发现了大量的邮件，比如乔治·克鲁尼，我不记得是谁，在抱怨这或那。想象一下。而且会更糟。而且更糟。我们当时没有听说过这些事情。是的，是的。所以，如果你收集了所有这些信息，我们今天无法解密它。但如果量子计算机问世，并且有些人在研究量子计算，他们将能够解密这些信息。与此同时，有人正在研究部署这些量子网络。我们也在研究这个，只不过不是为了部署，而是看看这样做是否可行。好的。
The Chinese are ahead of almost everybody. They have two satellites already in orbit that are sending these qubits. So they are impossible to decrypt. Okay. Wait. So they're sending the qubit. So you can already communicate in quantile. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We communicate all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lab in Colorado that does that. Yeah. Absolutely. No, no, no, no. But eventually we will have a quantum internet based on all this because in order to talk to these quantum computers, you have to send qubits, not just normal bits. So this is a race. Yeah. A race. We are not really, I mean, since we are not a, yeah. Yeah.
中国人几乎领先于所有人。他们已经有两颗卫星在轨道上，能够发送量子比特，因此这些信息几乎无法被破解。好的，等等。他们正在发送量子比特，所以我们已经可以用量子进行通信了。哦，是的。我们一直在进行这样的通信。嗯，我在科罗拉多有个实验室就是做这个的。是的，完全正确。但最终，我们将基于这一切构建一个量子互联网，因为要与这些量子计算机通信，必须发送量子比特，而不仅仅是普通的比特。所以这是一场竞赛。对，是一场竞赛。我们不是真的，嗯，因为我们不是，嗯，是的。
And there are a lot of people, I need to tell you that a lot of people including this government that claim that this is not really that relevant or important. But in Europe, for instance, they're really putting a lot of money into that. Why would our government not think it's important? Because there is a sociological phenomenon here. Cryptography has always been the promise of the mathematicians because there are mathematical functions, you know, like discrete logarithms and so on. They believe the moment they heard about quantum computers, they said, oh, we can solve the problem. We can create algorithms, mathematical algorithms that are going to be even harder to break. They call that post-quantum. But they don't know it's true. The United States government is following this post-quantum because they think it's easier and so on. Already they published two of these very, very fancy two students with a laptop were able to decrypt it within a week.
有很多人，我需要告诉你，包括本届政府在内的很多人认为这并不重要或相关。但在欧洲，例如，他们真的在这方面投入了大量资金。为什么我们的政府不认为这很重要呢？因为这里存在一个社会现象。加密技术一直是数学家的承诺，因为有一些数学函数，比如离散对数等等。他们一听说量子计算机，就认为可以解决问题了，可以创造出更难破解的算法，这被称为后量子加密。但他们并不知道这是否属实。美国政府正在关注后量子加密，因为他们认为这更简单等等。不过，已经有两个非常厉害的学生仅用一台笔记本电脑在一周内就解密了其中两个非常复杂的加密。
So obviously you cannot prove that no one will ever decrypt these things. Okay. So there is the cryptographers, they're not like physics, they don't work as physicists. So they say quantum key distribution, that's the name of this thing. It's a taryic, it's not important and so on. And also it won't work. Well, they say it was going to work for short distances, about 10 to 20 kilometers, which has published the paper that got tremendous publicity and award and so on as best paper that we were able to send this stuff over 100 kilometers. So I mean, the Chinese are sending that from satellites.
显然，你无法证明没有人能破解这些东西。所以，密码学家和物理学家不同，他们的工作方式也不同。他们提到量子密钥分发（这是这个概念的名字），但认为这不重要，也不会有效。他们认为这种技术只能用于短距离，大约10到20公里。然而，我们发布了一篇被广泛宣传和获得大奖的论文，证明我们能够将数据传输超过100公里。换句话说，中国人正在通过卫星传输这些数据。
Okay. So impossible to decrypt. Military communications based on these kind of things that are impossible to decrypt. So they're very important. But there is a whole group of people that are saying, no, post-quantum is what we want. And so next the National Institute of Science and Technology, they are really pushing the post-quantum thing. In Europe is the opposite. They're really embracing quantum. I mean, I was Denmark for instance, very far ahead into these things. NATO just gave them a pile of money to work on quantum and so on. So it all depends, it's a complicated thing because the crypto people are all mathematical people. So they don't care about quantum.
好的，所以这些技术是无法解密的。基于这些无法解密技术的军事通信非常重要。但有一群人表示，后量子技术才是他们的追求。因此，美国国家标准与技术研究院正在大力推动后量子技术。而在欧洲情况正好相反，他们在大力拥抱量子技术。比如丹麦，在这方面走在前列，北约刚刚给了他们一大笔资金用于量子技术的研究等。因此，这取决于很多因素，这是一个复杂的问题，因为密码学家都是数学背景的人，他们对量子技术并不关心。
Is any of this going to be useful for trying to understand, I don't know, how the brain works? Or is it, I mean, you know, there's still debates to whether or not the way that we're thinking about brain function is even like the right way. We think about neurons, action potentials and chemicals and, but the physicists, whenever they like poke their noses into this stuff, they tend to think about it a little bit differently or they start to think about, well, you know, state dependence, like the brain that you have at 8 a.m. is very different than the brain you have at 2 a.m. or 4 in the afternoon. Like maybe everything's happening differently and maybe some of this actually gets down to the quantum level. Like we can't say this neuron talks to this neuron and when they talk in the following way, you get a certain output. Like is there relevance here?
这对于尝试理解大脑的运作是否有帮助？我不知道，因为关于我们理解大脑功能的方式是否正确，仍然有很多争议。我们通常从神经元、动作电位和化学物质的角度考虑问题，但物理学家在研究这些问题时，往往从不同的角度思考。他们会考虑状态依赖性，比如早上8点的大脑与凌晨2点或下午4点的大脑是非常不同的——也许每个时间点的大脑活动都是不同的，甚至可能涉及到量子层面。我们不能简单地说这个神经元与那个神经元交流就会产生某种结果。那么，这其中是否有相关性呢？
There are two things I want to say. Beware of physicists getting into brains in brain work coming in. They always end up. It's like the new thing now. I know I know I know I know I was open to. I was into neuroscience for a while. And I think recently neuroscience has done made a good move of including people from psychology, computation, even philosophy, economics, and biology. These are all levels of analysis. Yeah, yeah. But the other thing you asked about quantum and the brain,
有两件事我想说。小心那些物理学家进入脑科学领域，他们总是最终参与进来。这就像现在的新趋势。我知道，我很开放。我曾经对神经科学很感兴趣。而且，我认为最近神经科学很好地融合了心理学、计算学，甚至哲学、经济学和生物学方面的人才。这些都是不同层次的分析。是的，是的。不过，你还问了关于量子和大脑的问题，
there is Roger Penrose who just got the Nobel Prize in physics. He's one of the few people who have various other ideas about the brain being totally quantum. And he's an incredibly brilliant man. He was the advisor of Calking. I heard him on Lexus podcast. And he does have interesting ideas about how neurons might be communicating maybe as bound networks as opposed to independent entities. No one really follows it. I'm not an expert in that. So Roger Penrose is the one who's pushing this. Many of the physicists go into brain science are not very clever at doing brain science because I hear a story. I think it was Francis Crick or someone who told I was at a conference and he was saying this, that if this is a game, the woman said, I decided to go into brain science. And so he said, OK, what have you done? And the guy says, I'm usually a specific kid of the brain. What do I do with it?
罗杰·彭罗斯刚刚获得了诺贝尔物理学奖。他是少数几位提出大脑完全是量子机制的人之一。他非常聪明，也曾是霍金的导师。我在Lexus的播客上听过他的讲话。他提出了一些有趣的观点，比如神经元可能通过绑定网络而不是作为独立个体进行交流。不过目前没有太多人认同他的观点。我并不是这方面的专家，所以这是罗杰·彭罗斯在推进的理论。许多从物理学转向脑科学的科学家对脑科学并不是特别在行。我听说有个故事，好像是弗朗西斯·克里克或其他人说的。有一次在一个会议上，一个女士说她决定从事脑科学研究。然后他说：“那你做了什么？” 那个人说：“我通常是研究大脑的某个特定部分。我应该怎么处理它呢？”
Well, I think it's good that computationally minded people have joined neuroscience because it was getting too modal, too descriptive. That said, I do think that math is so important, but it's often used to intimidate biologists into thinking that their ideas either might not be true or that there's better ideas out there. I will say that when computational neuroscience first started, it seemed like the attempts to model the brain were pretty feeble. Yeah. And actually, I'll just say they were pretty lame. But now I think with AI and LLMs, the biologists have had to step back and say, hey, you know, these math physics engineering AI types, they have the potential to really evolve the field. Right. Right. At least that's my stance. Yeah. I was at conferences where people say things like the brain is a massively parallel machine. And I say, wait, wait, are you sure of that?
我觉得，计算机思维的人加入神经科学领域是一件好事，因为之前这个领域太过于模式化和描述性。不过，我也认为数学很重要，但它常常被用来让生物学家感到气馁，使他们觉得自己的想法可能不成立，或者有更好的想法存在。老实说，计算神经科学刚起步的时候，建模大脑的尝试似乎非常无力，甚至可以说相当敷衍。但是如今，有了人工智能和大型语言模型，生物学家不得不退一步说，这些擅长数学、物理、工程和人工智能的人，确实有潜力推动这个领域的发展。至少这是我的观点。我曾在一些会议上听到有人说大脑是一个大规模并行处理的机器，我就会问：“等等，你确定吗？”
Yeah, that's a meaningless action. Yeah. So I said, if I show you a row of trees and I said, tell me how many are they? Do you really take the whole thing? And you said 75 or you have to go sequentially? It's not parallel, it is sequential. You know? But LLMs are pretty interesting, right? I mean, yeah, I'm working on this. You can take four or five large language models, essentially sort of pseudo brains and have them work on the same problem. It's hard to work with five people in parallel in a way that's coherent, right? You can all talk. You can only talk so much over one another. Yeah. It's very interesting. That's exactly what we're doing now.
是的，这个动作毫无意义。所以我说，如果我给你看一排树，问你有多少棵？你会真的一眼就看出来吗？还是需要一个一个数？这不是并行的，而是顺序的，对吧？但大型语言模型（LLMs）非常有趣。我现在正在研究这个。你可以用四五个大型语言模型，它们本质上像是伪大脑，让它们一起解决同一个问题。要让五个人并行工作并且保持一致是很难的，对吧？大家在一起说话的时候也不能同时说太多。这真的很有意思，这正是我们现在正在做的。
Years ago with Jeff Stregher, we wrote a paper on the idea of showing how programs collaborating with each other could solve problems very, very fast that human others cannot do. And it's a basis of a lot of the work we want to do now. Yes. And there are people who are really thinking of putting many, many of these LLMs together and then see whether or not they do better than a single one or better than a human. So you think AI is going to improve life for the typical citizen? Yes, because you can use these things in order to do things that were very hard to do before. I mean, I use them and it's amazing.
几年前，我和杰夫·斯特雷格一起写了一篇论文，探讨如何让程序相互协作，以极快的速度解决人类无法完成的问题。这是我们现在想要开展的许多工作的基础。是的，确实有人在考虑将许多大型语言模型组合在一起，看看它们的表现是否优于单个模型或人类。所以，你认为人工智能将改善普通公民的生活吗？是的，因为你可以用这些技术完成以前非常困难的事情。我自己也在使用这些技术，感觉非常棒。
I just published a paper on hallucinations in LLMs and so on because they hallucinate everyone and say, oh, they say anything. But yes, yeah. They are very useful. And I think that the companies that use them will make more money than the companies that produce them like OpenAI and so on. Yes. Yeah. It's a very, very important field. But 10, 15 years ago, whenever I'd bring up AI, you would chuckle and say, this stuff is life. Well, the funny thing is the other day, well, I don't want to name him, one of the managers at Xerox Spark, when I was at Park, I started playing with the idea of using machine learning to see what they can do. And AI people at that time said, that's nonsense. We need to think about logic. How does a brain think? How do we do cognitive psychology and so on? We were just doing neural nets. That's exactly it.
我刚发表了一篇关于大型语言模型（LLM）生成幻觉的论文，因为这些模型会产生幻觉，随意生成各种内容。不过，它们确实很有用。我认为，那些使用这些模型的公司会比那些生产这些模型的公司（如OpenAI等）赚更多的钱。这是一个非常重要的领域。十到十五年前，每当我提起人工智能，大家都会笑，说这个东西很神奇。有趣的是，前几天，我不想点名，在我还在施乐研究中心(PARC)时，有位经理开始尝试用机器学习来看看能做些什么。当时的人工智能专家对这个想法不以为然，认为这毫无意义，他们主张我们应该考虑逻辑、研究大脑是如何思考的、研究认知心理学等等，而我们只是专注在神经网络上。就是这样。
And the other day, I was meeting with some of these people and they were saying to me, we used to laugh at you doing this stuff because we could do only very little. And today is the rage. Now, the difference between what I was doing, what is being done today is a scale. I mean, I don't know if you know that they are now using nuclear power reactors in order to power the data centers.
有一天，我和一些人见面，他们对我说，以前我们总是嘲笑你做这些事情，因为我们只能做到很少。而今天，这已成了潮流。现在的区别在于规模。不知道你知不知道，他们现在使用核电站来为数据中心供电。
I didn't know that. But it's an immense cost of computing. I have no idea the amount of work I take to one trillion tokens in order to get one of these things to work. It strikes me you've always been very open-minded and very willing to adopt new technologies. Yes. But it hasn't changed your daily life very much. Like not much at all. I remember early on, you showed me the internet and you said, be very careful. And I said, why? You said, it's like mental chewing gum. Absolutely. You chew and chew. Those were your words. And at first, it tastes good. Then it doesn't taste very good at all. Then you don't taste it at all. And then you realize there's no nutrition.
我不知道这一点。不过，计算的成本实在是太大了。我不知道为了使这些东西正常运作，需要处理多达一万亿个数据。我觉得你一直都很开明，并且很愿意接受新技术。是的。但这些技术并没有对你的日常生活造成太大的变化。几乎没有。我记得早些时候你跟我展示了互联网，并告诉我要非常小心。我问你为什么，你说，这就像是思想的口香糖。没错，你会不停地咀嚼。起初味道很好，但之后就没那么好，最终你根本尝不到味道了，最后才意识到它没有营养。
And I always think about that in terms of phone usage or web foraging behavior. And you still like to work. You take a walk in the afternoon or after eating. You've always been incredibly regular with your routine despite the evolution of all these technologies. Like you're not the guy in Silicon Valley who's like tricked out with all the gear. No, no, no.
我总是想到手机使用或上网行为方面的事情。你依然喜欢工作。你会在下午或吃完饭后散步。尽管所有这些科技不断发展，你的日常生活依然非常规律。你并不是硅谷那种装备满身的人。不是，不是这样的。
Well, there is another. I actually have never seen you at a cafe with a laptop. Well, sometimes. But there's another aspect to this. As you know, in the last up to five years ago, I spent four years working on the economics of attention and why is it that people attend two things. And I really believe, and I'm not an expert, that there is a tremendous resonance between these machines and our human brains and they're addictive. And this the former CEO of Hewlett Packard, where I was in direct and the labs, Meg Wickman, she used to say, you know, I wake up in the middle of the night to look at my phone. And I know people who do that. And I get a memory of my family who do that more often than I would like to see them do that.
好的，还有一个。我其实从没见过你带着笔记本电脑在咖啡馆里。不过，有时候也是有的。但这里还有另一个方面。正如你所知，直到五年前，我花了四年时间研究注意力经济学，以及为什么人们会关注某些事物。而且我真的相信，尽管我不是专家，这些机器和我们的大脑之间存在巨大的共鸣，它们是有吸引力的。惠普的前任首席执行官梅格·惠特曼曾经说过，她半夜醒来查看手机。我知道有这样做的人，而且我常常看到我的家人也这样做，比我希望看到的频率还要高。
You don't do that. No. I mean, I do it, but not not I don't have this compulsion to see what's going on. I had a student that he said, I love spam because at least something is happening. Oh my goodness. He said, he spam spam. He said, I get spam and I look at it because something's happening. He used to say, he's not a very successful financial guy. Stop doing so. Brilliant fellow, brilliant fellow. But that's because maybe your internal world is rich enough that you don't are being in the. Oh, but I look at news. I like to look at things. I like to look at videos, don't misunderstand. It's not that I ignore it.
你不会这么做的。不是的。我是说，我会这么做，但我并没有非要去看发生了什么的强烈冲动。我有个学生曾经说，他爱看垃圾邮件，因为至少有什么事情正在发生。哦天哪。他说，他收到垃圾邮件，还会去看，因为这表示有什么事情在发生。他以前常说，他不是一个很成功的金融人士。别再这样做了。聪明的小伙子，聪明的小伙子。但这可能是因为你的内心世界足够丰富，所以你不需要被外界的事情吸引。哦，不过我会看新闻，我喜欢看看各种事物，喜欢看视频，不要误会。我并不是对这些视而不见。
But yeah, I'm not, I mean, I like the latest things and so on, especially if you are beautiful and so on. Yeah, I'm not into whatever the latest is and so on. And I remember I got some Oculus things that I got for free from this. I gave them to you and I never used them once or twice. I mean, I've used VR in my lab, but I don't want to spend time in VR. And also, as my conversation with one of your collaborators here revealed before this podcast, I love mechanical things and the details, the analog world. Okay.
好的，我并不是特别追求最新的潮流，不过我确实喜欢一些新奇的东西，尤其是那些很美的。如果有新的东西我不一定感兴趣。我记得我曾经免费拿到了一些 Oculus 的设备，我把它们给了你，自己几乎没用过。我在实验室里体验过 VR，但不想花太多时间在虚拟现实中。而且，就像我之前和你的一位同事聊天时说的那样，我喜欢机械装置、细节和模拟世界。
Digital is interesting and fascinating in some ways, but I like things, you know, like mechanical watches, cameras that click when they oppress them and so on, but not artificially. Okay. So I really like that. I like things that are very classical and so on in many ways. And I enjoy that. I like technology. Don't misunderstand me. And I use it a lot. And I use it and I do new things with them that I get patterns and so on. But yeah, I'm not a techie guy in the same sense.
数字技术在某些方面非常有趣和迷人，但我更喜欢一些实物，比如机械表和快门会咔哒响的相机，而不是人工模拟的东西。这就是我真正喜爱的东西。我喜欢各种经典的事物，并在很多方面享受它们。我也很喜欢科技，请不要误解我，我经常使用科技，并利用它做一些新的事情，比如获取模式等等。但我不算是那种技术狂热者。
I enjoy, I like to have an analog life, not a digital life. Writing a bicycle is analog, walking is analog, you know, sitting and meditating is analog. You know, I, of course, you can also listen through the internet to a good thing that helps you meditate or go to sleep, don't misunderstand me. But I don't have this fascination with things and so on. I mean, some people do, but it seems like a lot of people have a fascination with the future.
我喜欢过一种模拟的生活，而不是数字化的生活。骑自行车是模拟的，散步是模拟的，静坐冥想也是模拟的。当然，你也可以通过互联网收听一些帮助你冥想或入睡的好东西，不要误解我的意思。但我对这些事物没有特别的迷恋。有些人可能有，但似乎很多人对未来充满了向往。
You see, very grounded in the present. I've never read a single book of science fiction. Most of the people I work with, and I imagine they all come with ideas from books and science fiction. And they always say, did you read this or that? And I don't have no idea. I never liked it. I like to read about real people with real blood and real feelings. Science fiction to me is devoid of that.
你看，我是非常注重现实的。我从来没有看过一本科幻小说。大多数和我一起工作的人，我想他们都是受书籍和科幻小说影响的。他们总是问我，你读过这个或者那个吗？而我却完全不知道。我从来不喜欢科幻小说。我喜欢读关于有真实情感和真实生活的人的故事。对我来说，科幻小说缺乏这些元素。
It's imagining, you know, droids doing this or that. I couldn't get less. You know, as I always think that physicists must love science fiction because they never, never read a single book or looked at it in a movie of science fiction. I couldn't tell that. I don't relate to that. I don't think that these people display human-like behavior anyhow. So I mean, I'm not saying there's not interesting to others.
这段话的意思是：想象一下机器人在做这件事或那件事，但我对此并不感兴趣。我一直认为物理学家一定很喜欢科幻小说，因为他们从未真正读过一本书或看过一部科幻电影。我无法理解这种兴趣。我不认为这些机器人会表现出任何类似人类的行为。我不是说其他人不会觉得这有趣。
I mean, you're not a futurist. No. No, even though they call me futurists because I always anticipate things. Right. But you're not somebody who like thinks about what life is going to be like 100 years from now. No, I like to know life is now. Yes. Yes. And I also, as Nielswar once said, it is hard to predict anything, especially the future. Okay. We all predict the past very well. I don't know what's going on. I mean, you know, we seem things happening in the unbelievable things.
“我的意思是，你不是未来学家。没错，没错，尽管他们称我为未来学家，因为我总是能预见一些事情。但是你并不是那种会思考100年后生活会是什么样的人。不，我更喜欢了解现在的生活。是的，是的。而且正如尼尔斯瓦尔曾经说过的，预测任何事情都很难，尤其是未来。我们都能很好地预测过去。我不知道现在到底发生了什么。不过，你知道，我们似乎看到了一些难以置信的事情。”
I mean, the technology that allows you to become such a well-wide known phenomenon is because of the technology. Imagine if you were just declining the Roman Senate centuries ago. Very few people. I mean, exactly what I'm doing now but with no microphones or cameras. Right. I'm not a futurist. And that's it. The people tell me I am because I anticipate things but not because I imagine, you know, a world in which, you know, I couldn't care less about going to Mars, for instance, even though Elon Musk thinks this is very important. Do you think it's a cool project? I don't know. I want to ask him why. And then he tells me things like he says things like, well, you know, civilization is going to die here. We are going to fix it. And so I don't know. I mean, let it happen.
我的意思是，让你成为如此知名现象的原因是技术的进步。想象一下，如果是在几个世纪前的罗马参议院拒绝发表意见，很少有人会知道。我现在做的事情，但没有麦克风或摄像机。对，我不是一个未来学家。人们说我是因为我能提前预见一些事情，而不是因为我能想象。我对去火星没兴趣，尽管埃隆·马斯克认为这很重要。你觉得这是个很酷的项目吗？我不知道。我想问他原因，然后他跟我说，比如说，文明会在这里消失，我们要去修复它，但我也不知道。我是说，那就随它去吧。
I don't know. Just enjoy now, you know. You're not worried about the future. And that says, oh, I'm an optimist. I believe that technology will solve the global warming problem. Everything is obvious how to solve it. There's nothing very mysterious. Nuclear power is going to do it, you know? Absolutely. And once we get out over our preconceived notions of nuclear power, I mean, very few people have ever died of a nuclear accident. Let's face it. Yeah. They need to name it something else. Maybe. Yeah. And then things that once were thought to be dangerous when renamed, we were, you know, turn out to not be so dangerous that when renamed, people are willing to adopt.
我不知道。只是享受当下，你知道的。你不用担心未来。这就说明我是个乐观主义者。我相信科技会解决全球变暖的问题，解决方法是显而易见的，没有什么神秘之处。核电会解决这个问题，绝对的。一旦我们克服对核能的成见，实际上很少有人因核事故而丧生。说实话，他们需要给它起个新名字，也许吧。然后，那些曾被认为危险的东西在重新命名后，我们知道，其实并不那么危险，人们也更愿意接受。
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't really, you know, I don't worry too much about the future. I think that people are ingenious and wise enough to stay away from the brink, hopefully. You don't seem to worry too much generally. You're not a big warrior. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You and I are different that way. You and I are different that way. You're a warrior. Yeah. Not if I keep busy. Oh, okay. Yeah. These days a lot less.
是的。嗯，是的。对。所以，我并不是很担心未来。我认为人类足够聪明和有智慧，能够避免走到危险的边缘，希望如此。你似乎总体上也不是特别担忧的人。你不是一个经常担心的人。嗯，是的。我们在这方面有些不同。你是一个容易担心的人。是的。但如果我保持忙碌的话，就不会那么担心了。哦，好吧。是的，最近忙起来就少担心多了。
I think that I think at the transition points between different circumstances and at the transition points between different career things, I think it makes sense to worry. It sort of drives some of the urgency to make sure that, you know, you reach for the next rung and grab it, right? And not, you know, not miss. I mean, there's been, I think there's been elements of uncertainty in my life where I felt like, okay, I'm going to ground to the things I can control, but no, I don't stay up at night worrying about things. Yeah. Also, I think meditation is profoundly effective at this.
我认为，在面对不同环境和事业转变的关键时刻，适度的担忧是有意义的。这种担忧会激励我们紧紧抓住下一步，不让自己错过。生活中有很多不确定的因素，当我感到不确定时，我会努力把握住那些我能控制的事情。但我并不会因此而彻夜难眠。另外，我觉得冥想在这方面非常有效。
Suddenly, you're here and that stays. The past is a past. You cannot do anything and the future hasn't arrived. So what the heck? You know, I really believe that and it has helped me immensely. I'm very, the few things I'm very proud. I went for my medical checkup a year ago and the doctor says, I'd love to hear you breathe. I said, what's wrong with my breathe? It's so slow and calm. So you got over the white coat syndrome? Yes. Yeah. Because of meditation. Yeah. You send me your lab results this morning. So everything looks great. Yeah. People always been, you know, regular about exercise, not excessive. No. You're never one of the like the marathoners or the, you know, five AM in the pool, people. But you know. It runs to running marathon actually. So, yeah. I mean, it's very common in the area where, you know, in around Stanford to be pretty extreme about athletics. That was never your thing. No. Steady long distance runner. Yeah, I told you that once. Yeah. I'm not a sprinter. Yeah. Some people are, and by the way, I admire them immensely. You mean in life, they were speaking math for you. Yeah. In general, yeah. There are some people who really can do things incredibly fast and they move from one thing to the other. And, and so on. Yeah.
突然间，你在这里，而那会持续下去。过去就是过去。你不能改变什么，未来也还未到来。那么，管它呢？你知道，我真的相信这一点，它对我帮助很大。我为一些事情感到自豪。一年前我去做体检，医生说，他很喜欢听我的呼吸。我问，难道我的呼吸有什么问题吗？他说，呼吸很慢很平稳。所以你克服了白袍综合症？是的。是通过冥想做到的。对了，你早上把你的化验结果发给我了，一切都很好。一直以来，人们都认为坚持锻炼很重要，但没必要过度。你从来不是那种马拉松选手，或者早上五点就去游泳的人，但那样其实是马拉松般坚持的。所以，是的。在斯坦福附近，体育活动很激烈，这很常见，但那从来不是你的风格。是啊，我曾经跟你说过，我是个耐力跑者，不是短跑选手。有些人是短跑选手，顺便说一句，我非常敬佩他们。我是说生活中，他们在数学方面很擅长。是的，总的来说，有些人确实能非常迅速地完成任务，并迅速从一件事转到另一件。
I, I like people who reflect some wisdom. For instance, I have a, it's very strange for someone like me, but I see a Buddhist monk and I just, I mean, I feel calmer by just seeing that person, you know. I don't know. I, there is something, it's not just a spirituality, the power they have to be here totally and absolutely. It's impressive to me. I mean, some of the people say, okay, that's funny robes or something, you know. I like that a lot. Not, it's not necessarily a way. I mean, my therapist used to stay on me and that to use meditation to move away from trouble and, and trouble, travelling thoughts is not a good idea. So you have to embrace the world too. But I, I use it so it's just to stay calm and to enjoy and to see things for what they are. And I think it's, yeah. Yeah. The future is the future. I don't know. Well, you can only control what you can control. Right. That's, but you know, there's some people that worry all the time about the future, you know.
我喜欢有智慧的人。例如，我看到一个佛教僧侣时，会感到很奇怪，因为我只要看到他就觉得很平静。我不知道为什么，这不仅仅是因为他们的灵性，而是他们那种完全活在当下的力量，这让我印象深刻。虽然有些人可能会说，那就是搞怪的袍子什么的，但我真的很喜欢那种感觉。不过，这不一定是一种生活方式。我过去的治疗师曾建议我，不要用冥想来逃避麻烦或纷扰的思绪，而是要拥抱这个世界。但我只是用冥想来保持平静，享受生活，看到事物的本来面目。我想，是的，未来就是未来。我们只能控制能控制的东西，对吧？然而，有些人总是会担心未来。
You're understanding of quantum mechanics, relativity and the real world. And perhaps just generally knowing what you know and experiencing what you've experienced, do you believe in some sort of higher power organizing force or let's just be blunt? Do you believe in God? Well, okay. The word God has a lot of implications, right? I mean, I don't necessarily, I don't believe in a God that keeps track of what you and I are doing at this point. There are too many people and so on. So I don't believe in this notion of, you know, of an agent there that is somehow knowing what, what everybody on this planet is doing out of, you know, and so on. I, I do feel sometimes and especially because of the studies I have, I, and actually from reading people who have been very, very deep, you know, in particular the thoughts of people like Einstein, Heisenberg and so on, that there seems to be at times a sense of an organizing principle in the universe and to learn those rules. So there is this notion, I mean, philosophically it's called pantheism that God is in nature already. It's been us and all these people started this. That is very appealing to me. The notion that there is something that this thing is, if it's evolving, it's like an entity. And not an entity that says, oh, tomorrow, you know, you'll die or so on. I mean, you'll die.
你对量子力学、相对论以及现实世界的理解如何？或许，仅是普遍地了解你所知道的，并经历过你所经历的，你相信有某种更高的组织力量存在吗？直白地说，你相信上帝吗？好吧，“上帝”这个词有很多含义，对吧？我的意思是，我不一定相信有一个上帝在关注你我现在所做的事情。人太多了，等等。所以我不相信有某种实体能够知道这个星球上的每个人在做什么。我确实有时会感到，尤其是基于我所学习的东西，以及阅读过那些有过很深刻思想的人们的作品，特别是像爱因斯坦、海森堡等人的想法，似乎在某些时刻，宇宙中存在某种组织原则，我们可以去学习这些规则。从哲学上讲，这被称为泛神论，即神已经存在于自然中。这种观点对我来说非常有吸引力。这个观点认为存在某种东西，如果它在演化，那就像是一个实体，但不是那种说“哦，明天你会死去”这样的实体。我是说，你会死去，但它与此无关。
You'll die. There are lots of events that lead to death or to happiness and so on, but not because someone is out there checking. I mean, I don't believe that there's enough memory to store all this. Although today I saw you can buy Sandis Gaimuris terabytes study this big. So I don't, I don't believe in that. But it's a matter of belief. No, no, anything else. Unfortunately, these beliefs are, you know, translates sometimes in complicated action. I do believe that there is a sense of mystery. Oh, yeah. I sometimes, I once heard, I don't know who said it, but it's a very good sentence that if you listen to Gethof and say, I mean, the man's struggle, but it's amazing. He was able to create that music.
你会死的。导致死亡或幸福的事件有很多，但这个过程不是因为有人在背后监管。我是说，我不相信有足够的记忆来存储所有这些事情。尽管今天我看到你可以买到Sandis Gaimuris的一个那么大的研究硬盘。我不相信这个，只是一个信仰问题，没有别的。不幸的是，这些信仰有时会转化为复杂的行动。我确实相信存在某种神秘感。哦，是的。我记得有一次听说过，不知道是谁说的，但这句话很棒：如果你听听Gethof的音乐，就会感受到人的奋斗，但令人惊叹的是，他能够创作出那样的音乐。
On the other hand, Mozart seems to have been getting the messages from heavens, you know, on a daily basis, just for the dawn. So some people are given this connection to something much bigger and you have access to that through listening to the music, the experiences we have. There is this idea out there that consciousness doesn't just exist within our brains, but it's sort of a like a collective network and things come through us, not just as individuals, but as Jungian think is a lot of that. I was, I am very interested in the word spiritual and what it means, you know, to see that things transcend our particular needs at any point.
另一方面，莫扎特似乎每天黎明时分都能从天上获得灵感。有些人天生就有与更大世界的这种联系，而我们可以通过聆听音乐和我们所经历的事物来接触到这种联系。有人认为，意识不仅存在于我们的大脑中，而更像是一个集体网络，事物通过我们传递，不仅仅是作为个体。荣格学派对此有许多看法。我非常感兴趣的是“精神”一词及其含义，尤其是当我们看到某些事物超越了我们当前的具体需求时。
But the idea of a God that tells you one thing or the other is funny. You know, if you look at any movie, you know, Braveheart or whatever, you see the one warrior, one group of warriors has a priest saying, God is with us. The other one is about to engrage. It's just the same thing to the other group. That's a little bit funny, right? I mean, humans and human brains in particular are amazing. And what human brains can do, this computer in our heads is spectacular. And yet it also has limitations. And I think, well, put differently, does it make you nervous or worry you that I seem to have an increasing interest in God and religion? No, I think that is a beautiful journey in which you're in.
但关于一个神明告诉你某件事情或别的事的想法有点有趣。你知道的，如果你看任何一部电影，比如《勇敢的心》或者其他，你会看到一方的战士有个牧师在说“上帝与你们同在”，而另一方的战士也在激励士气，说着同样的话。这有点搞笑，对吧？人类尤其是人类的大脑是非常了不起的，这个在我们脑中的计算机是很出色的，但它也有局限性。我觉得，或者换句话说，你有没有因为我对于上帝和宗教的兴趣日益增加而感到紧张或担忧？不，我认为你正在进行一段美丽的旅程。
And there are two pieces to this provided you don't start using this to somehow spout, you know, arguments why people shouldn't do this or that. No, no, it's only my own exploration of my life. I respect that I think is a very important thing. You know, there is an issue here that I read reading Wilson, actually, Joe Wilson, which you know, he wrote this beautiful book on human nature. And he claims that the religious instinct comes through out of a submissive component in us. That animals have.
这段话的大意是：
"在这一点上，有两方面的内容，但请注意，你不能因此开始利用这些去争论说人们不应该做这做那。这只是我自己对生活的探索。我认为这是非常重要的。我读到了一个来自乔·威尔逊的问题，他写了一本关于人性很美的书。他声称，宗教的本能来源于我们内心的一种顺从的成分，就像动物也有这种成分一样。"
这段话表达了作者在个人探索中对于宗教本能的思考，并引用了乔·威尔逊关于人类顺从本能的观点。
Dogs are submissive. And we believe that we need to be submissive to a king and to something beyond a king, you know, some deity or something other. That's his theory. I certainly don't feel any compulsion to be submissive to other humans. I mean, I think in knowing the limitations of the human brain and cognition, I don't care how smart. I don't care how successful an individual or a group is, but it's very clear that the human brain is limited in parsing the universe that we're in. Otherwise, we wouldn't continue to have the same issues over and over.
狗是顺从的。而我们认为，我们需要对国王以及超越国王的某种神灵或其他事物保持顺从。这是他的理论。然而，我个人并不觉得有任何必要去顺从其他人。我的意思是，了解人类大脑和认知的局限性后，我不在乎一个人或一个团体有多聪明或多成功，但人类大脑在解析我们所处宇宙时的局限性是显而易见的。否则，我们不会反复出现相同的问题。
Although I do like to think that we're falling forward, we're evolving forward as opposed to devolving as a species, but we tend to repeat a lot of the same mistakes over and over again. But there's also a technical thing here. We sometimes confuse randomness with premonition or God doing something. I mean, dodging a bullet by turning your head as our next president did is an incredible thing.
虽然我喜欢认为我们是在向前发展、向前进化，而不是作为一个物种在退化，但我们往往一次又一次地犯同样的错误。同时，这里也有一个技术层面的问题。我们有时会把随机事件误认为是预感或上帝的作为。举个例子，我们的下一任总统曾通过转头躲过一颗子弹，这真的是一件不可思议的事情。
The probability is so, so, so small. But that doesn't mean that there was someone who said, turn the head, do it and so the bullet will pass. I mean, we ascribe causality to something that was truly random. It could have also in another scenario, the same turn of the head would have been to the other side and this person would be dead. So I, but sometimes we are confronted with these incredible coincidences that we cannot explain and we say, oh, it must be God that makes sure that you and I met or that we thought the same thoughts and so on.
概率非常非常小。但这并不意味着有人指示说，转头，这样子弹就会穿过去。我的意思是，我们把因果关系归于那些真正随机的事情。在另一种情况下，同样转头可能会转向另一边，而这个人就会丧命。所以，但有时候我们会遇到一些难以解释的令人难以置信的巧合，我们就会说，哦，一定是上帝确保你我相遇，或是我们有相同的想法，等等。
Although as a biologist who started off as a neurodevelopmental biologist, I think I just had to see there are two things that changed my understanding of what might be possible. One was Barbara Chapman, my advisor, once treated me to an experiment. It was kind of a funny thing. Typical Barbara, you know, how nerdy she was. She said, are you willing to stay up all night? And I was like, okay, yeah. And she took zebrafish eggs and fertilized them. And I sat for 11 hours with food. I got up to use the restroom and I watched a zebrafish egg duplicate and become a fish. Like in real time with my eyes, not some movie on YouTube. Although that's impressive too. People can look these up. But to just actually see life emerge from a set of cells through its own organizing principles, all of which can be explained by genes, transcription factors, the physics of the mitotic spindle, all, I mean, math and biology and chemistry can explain all of it. But there was something truly spectacular about it that seems so non-random because it's not random.
虽然作为一位最初研究神经发育的生物学家，我现在意识到有两件事改变了我对可能性的理解。其中之一是我的导师芭芭拉·查普曼曾让我参与了一项实验。这实验很有趣，典型的芭芭拉风格，非常有学术气息。她问我愿不愿意熬夜，我说可以。于是她拿了些斑马鱼卵并进行了受精。我坐在那里11个小时，吃了点东西，只起身去了一趟洗手间，然后亲眼看着一颗斑马鱼卵分裂成并成长为一条鱼。不是在YouTube上看视频，而是真正用我的眼睛看到。这虽然令人印象深刻，但人们可以自己去查阅这些。但亲眼看到生命从一组细胞开始，通过自身的组织原则不断涌现，这一切都可以用基因、转录因子、有丝分裂纺锤体的物理学来解释，所有这些原理都可以用数学、生物和化学来说明。然而，这其中有些非凡的东西让我感到非常有序，因为它确实不是随机的。
And then the other one is that, I mean, I guess I've had enough experiences with prayer and the consequences of prayer in my real life that I just, I sort of can't get my head around the idea that there's not a God or some sort of organizing force. I can't accept it because there's, yes, there's causality, reverse causality, correlation and mistaken correlation and causality, but somehow, like, I mean, I like to think I'm grounded in science and reality, but I don't think science can explain at all. Oh, no. And I think that this experience of the spirituality, for instance, I remember and still happens spending a night outdoors and looking at the sky. I mean, it's an incredible thing. The stars and you feel so small and yet there is order to all that. It's not just random stuff. I mean, they move according to laws that fortunately we humans were able to discover, which is an amazing thing when you think about it. Dogs did not discover gravity. No. They experienced it. The experience. It was gravity. Yeah.
翻译成中文并简化：
我在生活中经历过很多次祈祷及其结果，所以无法理解没有神或某种组织力量的想法。我不能接受这个，因为虽然存在因果关系、逆因果关系、相关性和错误的因果相关性，但我认为科学无法完全解释这种现象。我相信科学和现实，但仍感到科学无法解释一切。
我对精神世界的体验，比如有时候我在户外过夜，看着星空。这是一种不可思议的体验。你会感到自己很渺小，但又感受到其中的秩序。这不是随机的东西。它们按照一些法则运动，而这些法则恰好被我们人类发现。这是一件很了不起的事情。狗没有发现重力。他们只是体验重力。
So I really think that there is something to be said about these spiritual experiences. And I really believe that very importantly, and I listened to people talk. I recently have been looking at some stuff that C.S. Lewis, you know, he was a man who was studying the sagas and the mythology of the Vikings and so on and eventually became a devout Christian, you know, thinking that this was the only answer to the, because all religions have the same element. So I understand that. I respect it. I experienced that, you know, at times in my life. But when I think seriously about it, I think that the moment, you know, we have this computer and, you know, we can get glimpses of all this. But I don't believe that it's this notion. No one can prove to me that there is someone there organizing my life minute by minute or second by second. I don't believe that. I do believe that there are fantastic chances in life and randomness, beautiful ones.
我确实认为对这些精神体验有一些值得说的地方。我真的相信这很重要，我倾听人们的诉说。我最近查看了一些C.S. Lewis 的资料，他是一个研究北欧维京传说和神话的人，最后成为了一位虔诚的基督徒，因为他认为所有宗教都有相同的元素，他认为这是唯一的答案。我理解这一点，也尊重它。我在生命中的某些时刻也有过这样的体验。但是当我认真思考时，我认为随着我们现在拥有计算机，我们可以略微了解这一切。但我不相信有人能向我证明，有某个存在在逐分逐秒地安排我的生活。我并不相信这一点。我相信生活中确实有奇妙的机会和美好的随机性。
Okay. And, you know, having Yuan and Lara as children is a fantastic randomness in my life. Hopefully it wasn't too random. No, no. In this sense that, you know, children, you know, you know, children that come unhealthy or whatever. I mean, you know, it's a very impressive thing. Yeah. The number of things that have to organize to create a healthy child is it's truly a miracle.
好的，你知道，有元和拉拉这样的孩子是我生活中美妙的意外。我希望这并不是太随机的意外。不是的，不是的。我是说，你知道，孩子们，有时候出生时可能不太健康之类的。我是说，这真的是一件令人惊叹的事。要创造一个健康的孩子，需要许多因素完美配合，真是一种奇迹。
Yeah. It's true. Yeah. And it's random too, you know. I mean, the same, the same set of parents can produce two different set of children too. Okay. I mean, that's a very, very important. Warren and I are pretty different. Oh, absolutely. But in very beautiful ways too.
是的，确实如此。而且这也是随机的。也就是说，同一对父母可以生出两个完全不同的孩子。这一点非常非常重要。沃伦和我就很不一样。哦，当然了，但我们在不同之处也各有各的美丽。
So I mean, neither of you does behave or conducts a life that, you know, I would be a trap your mother would be happy with. So, but going back to this, I believe that indeed spirituality is important. I have a lot of access to that through classical music. There are times that I really believe that is it. I mean, I can get very, very emotional listening to music, very emotional. You know, my wife always notices that when I do that and I think that then you're having access to something very different.
所以，我的意思是，你们俩的行为方式和生活方式都不是你母亲会满意的。但是，回到这个话题上，我确实相信精神层面是很重要的。我通过古典音乐接触到很多这种东西。有时候，我真的相信这就是重要的。我可以在听音乐时变得非常非常情绪化。你知道吗，我的妻子总是注意到我在这样的时刻，我觉得那时你接触到了某种非常不同的东西。
Of course, you can be explained physiologically by all sorts of resonances and so on. But who cares? You know, you mentioned that you can peer into the future with ideas that you're working on. And you don't get too far ahead. Like you're not thinking like a hundred years from now. Once again, I look like do you spend a lot of time thinking about the past?
当然，这可以用各种生理共振等来解释。但谁在乎呢？你知道，你提到过可以通过你正在研究的想法窥探未来。但不要走得太远，不像是考虑一百年后的事情。再说一次，我想问你是否花很多时间思考过去？
Sometimes sometimes. And there is a, I've always, because I left my, my family very, when I was told very young, I always had a certain nostalgia for things. Okay. I, I met a, I became friend with a very impressive guy in France, Clougeau Park. I think he was the director of the geophysics institute and both of us had very similar parents in different, you know, French and Argentina, but still, and similar education. And we, we had, I have sometimes a certain nostalgia that is almost melancholy about the way we grew up and so on.
有时候，有时候。我一直以来，因为我在很小的时候就离开了我的家庭，总是对一些事物怀有某种怀旧之情。我在法国认识了一位非常令人印象深刻的朋友，名叫Clougeau Park。我想他是地球物理研究所的所长。我们两人有着相似的父母背景，虽然一个在法国，一个在阿根廷，但教育方式相似。我们有时会对我们成长的方式以及其他方面怀有某种近乎忧郁的怀旧情感。
Melancholy. A little bit about it. I mean, I recall your stories about growing up in Argentina, like you would have 10, 15 cousins over for lunch every Sunday. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't sound melancholy. No, no, but there were moments, moments of loneliness, moments of times where I felt very misunderstood. I had, unfortunately, a very punishing mother.
忧郁。简单来说一下。我记得你讲过你在阿根廷长大的故事，比如每个星期天午餐都会有10到15位堂兄弟姐妹过来。是的，是的。这听起来并不忧郁。不是的，但其中也有一些时刻，一些孤独的时刻，一些让我感到非常不被理解的时刻。不幸的是，我有一个非常严厉的母亲。
So that, but I still remember her and I think about her in the ways that are not necessarily always very happy. I was looking at photos a while ago and I, there are pictures of her that is, you know, she's smiling coming out of the Pacific Ocean in, in Carmel. She took a walk and so on. But I, I, I reflect back in the past in that sense. I mean, and sometimes, you know, I'm asked, you know, how did you grow up? My wife being Danish, she grew up in a very different way from, you know, upper middle class, Argentines. So you know, that we reflect on that, you know, the kinds of childhoods we had and so on. But not, not in the sense that, you know, oh, I wish I had that now. No regrets.
所以，我仍然记得她，并且想着她，虽然这些回忆不总是那么快乐。不久前，我在看一些照片，其中有几张是她在卡梅尔的太平洋海边露出微笑的照片，她散步的样子依然历历在目。我常常回忆过去，以这种方式怀念。有时候，有人会问我，你是怎么长大的？我的妻子是丹麦人，她的成长方式与阿根廷的中上阶层截然不同。我们常常反思各自的童年经历等等，但并不是说我希望现在拥有那些过去。我没有遗憾。
Well, not many, not many. I mean, I, I mean, I, there is one regret that is more theoretical than anything else, which is if I look at my family, my brother stayed, produce family, children, grandchildren and so on, I came here and I produce children and grandchildren. They are going to be two diverging branches of the family. Not just. We still get together. We got together last year for your birthday.
好的，并不是很多，不是很多。我的意思是，我，我的意思是，我有一个遗憾，更像是理论上的遗憾。也就是，当我看我的家庭时，我的兄弟留在原地，组建了家庭，养育了孩子和孙子，而我来到了这里，也有了自己的孩子和孙子。这样我们就成了家庭中两条分支。但是，我们仍然会聚在一起。去年为了你的生日，我们就聚到了一起。
Yeah, no, I know. That's what is so important to me. Yes. But I think about it sometimes. And when I go back and I see the lives very similar to what I had, you know, different breaths, there is a sudden, you know, sense of thinking about it. But I also realize that if I didn't take the steps I took, I would be as miserable as some of my old friends that are really struggling even to find meaning in what they do or even surviving economically. So I was really lucky.
是的，我知道。这对我来说非常重要。是的。但我有时会想起这件事。当我回到过去，看到那些过着和我以前类似生活的人时，我会突然产生一种思考。但我也意识到，如果我没有采取那些我所做的步骤，我可能会像我以前的一些老朋友一样痛苦，他们甚至很难在自己所做的事情中找到意义，甚至在经济上也在挣扎。所以我真的很幸运。
Well, so was I because I wouldn't have existed because you wouldn't have met now. True. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe you would have, but no, no, no, no, no. I'm grateful I didn't grow up and want to sire us. I love, I love the city. I love the country. I don't feel that I couldn't have done. Any of the things I've done in South America, given maybe, but the landscape was just completely different. Oh, I go there and after a week, I want to come back.
好的，我也是这么想的，因为如果你们没有现在相遇，我可能就不存在了。确实，确实。我的意思是，也许你会存在，但不，不，不，不。我很感激我没有在别的地方长大。我热爱这座城市，热爱这个国家。我不觉得我在南美所做的事情在这里不能做到，也许可以，但那里的环境确实完全不同。哦，我去那里，呆上一周就想回来。
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Do you love this country? I love this country. I feel very much part of this country. I'm very grateful to what this country has done for me, for my family. And that includes you and your sister, okay, and my wife. When did you become a citizen? Oh, many, many years ago. And I really did it consciously.
当然，当然，绝对是这样。你爱这个国家吗？我爱这个国家。我深深地感受到自己是这个国家的一部分。我非常感激这个国家为我和我的家人所做的一切。这也包括你和你的妹妹，还有我的妻子。你什么时候成为公民的？哦，很多很多年前了。而且我是很有意识地做出了这个决定。
No, not because, I mean, I mean, they were practical things, but no, I really believe in it. I really believe it is an incredible country. I mean, gives incredible opportunities to people. As Elon says, Elon Musk, I'm also an immigrant and very happy to be one. Yeah, you've always been a patriot. Absolutely.
不，不是因为这些，我是说，我是说，确实有一些实际原因，但不是，我真的相信这个国家。我真的相信这是一个了不起的国家，我是说，它给人们提供了难以置信的机会。就像埃隆·马斯克说的那样，我也是一个移民，并且很高兴成为其中一员。是的，你一直都是爱国者。绝对的。
And on the other hand, as I said, Argentina is complicated. I go there and a lot of smells and things that bring memories that are not that easy. I mean, the food's not bad. Yeah, yeah, but it's also the whole atmosphere. And the first two, three days are an incredible experience of meeting friends and talking with them and so on. And after a while, I also see a darker side to it. I must tell you that on the other hand, my country law, Denmark, is also a country that I like immensely. There's nice people and pleasant and soft, very soft, especially in summer.
另一方面，正如我之前所说，阿根廷是个复杂的地方。我去那里的时候，许多气味和各种东西让我想起了一些并不那么容易的回忆。我是说，那里的食物还不错。是的是的，但还有整体的氛围。在头两三天，见到朋友并和他们聊天是一次非常美好的经历。但过了一段时间后，我也看到了一些比较阴暗的一面。我必须告诉你，另一方面，我的祖国丹麦也是一个我非常喜欢的国家。那里的人很好，相处起来很愉快，而且性格温和，尤其是在夏天。
But the Danes are also strong people. Like they're, the average Dane is so smart. I think the high school education there must be one of the best in the world. Yeah, there is a notion of proficiency. I mean, people are proficient at what they do. Yeah, you go to a store, you go to, you have a problem, an airline or whatever, you'll get someone who really knows how to solve it. But there's also a very, it's a small society, very homogeneous, tremendous sense of humor, which I enjoy.
但是丹麦人也很强大。比如说，他们非常聪明。我觉得丹麦的高中教育可能是世界上最好的之一。是的，他们确实很擅长自己所做的事情。比如你去商店，遇到问题，航空公司或者其他情况，你会遇到真正了解如何解决问题的人。而且这个社会很小，也非常同质化，还有一种很出色的幽默感，我很喜欢。
And it's very soft. People enjoy life. They have notions like slow food movements and things of that sort. So I like it. I could not live there because it's a very homogeneous way of behaving. The Lutheran ethic is there. They're not religious, but they're Lutheran. So I feel very comfortable in Europe and so on. But I like being here. Yes. Yeah, I feel like our family now includes so many different nationalities and religions and backgrounds and philosophies and political stances. Well, it's good too.
翻译如下：
那里的生活节奏很缓慢。人们热爱生活，他们有些像慢食运动这样的理念。所以我很喜欢那里。但我无法在那里生活，因为那里的生活方式过于单一。那种路德教伦理在那里很常见。他们不算是宗教信徒，但有路德教的影响。因此，我在欧洲感觉很自在等等。我还是喜欢待在这里。是的。我觉得我们的家庭现在包含了很多不同的民族、宗教、背景、哲学和政治立场。这样也很好。
Yeah, it's great. It's starting to look like the UN with some extra. Well, I grew up in a family that I had in ideological diversity. It was incredible. Incredible. That's good. But that was also good to be as its child to hear these arguments about politics and so on. Yeah, I hear a few of those now. Arguments throughout politics. We won't get into politics.
是啊，这真的很棒。它开始看起来像个带点额外亮点的联合国。我在一个充满意识形态多样性的家庭中长大，真是不可思议。这很好，但作为这个家庭中的一员，听到这些政治方面的争论也是很有益处的。现在我也偶尔听到一些关于政治的争论。但是我们就不深入讨论政治了。
One thing that I did want to say, however, is that I remember a long time ago, and I'm certain because I wrote it in my journal, you said, politically incorrect views are often right. Is that true still? Yes. Yes. Politically true for you. I should say. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because this has only to be judged in time.
我确实想说的是，我记得很久以前，你说过一句话，我在日记里写下来了，你说“政治上不正确的观点往往是对的。” 这句话现在还成立吗？是的，对你来说是政治上正确的，我应该这么说。是的，绝对是的，因为这只能随着时间来做判断。
I think that the issue of political incorrectness is some kind of a mob behavior that says you should think like us. We should be able to express our views with respecting others and so on, and we should be respected for that. I think that this whole notion that others are telling you what to think or not to think is a little bit complicated. And I must say something which I hope it doesn't get in trouble with my Danish side of the family or friends. These like the Scandinavian societies that are extremely uniform in thinking, the worst should is used all the time.
我认为政治不正确的问题有点像一种群体行为，要求你按照他们的想法思考。我们应该能够在尊重他人的同时表达自己的观点，并且我们的观点也应该受到尊重。我觉得这种别人告诉你该怎样想或不该怎样想的整个概念有些复杂。我必须说一句希望不会惹到我丹麦家人或朋友的话，这类似于那些高度统一思维的斯堪的纳维亚社会，往往过于强调“应该”怎么做。
You should do this. You shouldn't do that. Good that you did it. It's a very, the enforced behavior in a very, very particular way. It's not a hurting instinct, but there is a very, very strict Lutheran tradition of telling you what you should and you shouldn't do. So I know very few people, and I've been going to Denmark for many, many years, that really have, I cannot, plastic ideas that are away from the mean and they're considered odd. Okay. Very few, including the physicists and they have fantastic school of physics there. The board was there. So it's a society that conformity is the issue there, right?
你应该这么做，而不应该那么做。你做了这件事很好。这是一种非常特别的行为模式，不是一种盲从的本能，而是严格的路德宗传统告诉你什么该做、什么不该做。所以，我认识的人很少，尽管我去丹麦很多年了，他们中有非常少数的人拥有不随大流的、独特的想法，这些人被认为是异类。即使是物理学家们也是如此，尽管丹麦有出色的物理学学校和研究机构，比如波尔学派。因此，这是一个以遵从社会规范为特征的社会。
So on the other hand, I think that it's good to think differently. And you know, there's a man, perhaps you heard of him. I know where, I mean, I admire him. He died, Freeman Dyson. He was on a level with Feynman and Gelman, by the way. He used to have very strange ideas too. He used to say, global warming, what's wrong with it? There's a high risk going to be a garden. And yeah, you know, there's a high risk there. It will become a garden. People will be able to eat all that food. Well, I think people hear that, but then they countered against these, you know, very heart wrenching pictures of like polar bears on ice caps that are shrinking. This kind of thing. There are more polar bears today than when Mr. Al Gore said that we're going to die. Listen, I'm not going to argue climate change with you because I have no knowledge there. No, no, no, no, I'm not, I'm not countering. I'm just saying, you know, like, uh, it, I mean, this, this is getting very intense on the internet now because the arguments on both sides seem pretty strong, at least as they're presented. So who's right? No, the question is, what can we do about it? That's the issue. And I think that technology and wisdom are going to solve it. I think so. I really believe that very strongly. I mean, optimist, when he comes to that.
所以，从另一方面来看，我觉得以不同的角度思考是好的。你知道，有个叫弗里曼·戴森的人，也许你听说过他。我很敬佩他。他去世了。顺便说一下，他的水平和费曼、盖尔曼相当。他常常有一些非常不同寻常的想法。他曾说过，全球变暖又有何不好呢？有很大风险会变成一个花园。是啊，你知道，这有很大的风险会变成一个花园。人们将能够吃到所有那些食物。我想，人们听到这些话，但随后他们会想到那些令人心痛的画面，比如在不断缩小的冰盖上的北极熊之类的。然而今天的北极熊比奥尔·戈尔先生宣称我们要灭亡时的数量还要多。听着，我不打算和你争论气候变化，因为我对这方面没有了解。不，不，不，我并不是反驳。我只是想说，你知道，现在网上的讨论变得非常激烈，因为双方的论点看起来都很有力，至少在呈现的时候是这样的。那么，谁是对的呢？问题是，我们能对此做些什么？这才是关键。我认为技术和智慧将解决这个问题。我真的非常强烈地相信这一点。我对此持乐观态度。
When I'm talking about being politically incorrect, this is idea of saying things that a group of people say you shouldn't be saying or thinking those thoughts. And the question is, can we debate those things rationally or nicely respecting people's beliefs? Okay. And I, I, yeah, I believe in that very strongly. And I think being politically incorrect is a way of saying you're sort of just smiling at them. But it's okay. Why not? You know, I said, you know, who said that? We shouldn't be like that.
当我谈论政治不正确时，我指的是表达一些某个群体认为你不应该说或不应该想的想法。问题是，我们能否理性地、友好地讨论这些事情，同时尊重他人的信仰？我对此非常信奉。我认为所谓的“政治不正确”就是以一种微笑面对他们的方式来说话，表示没关系，为什么不呢？谁说我们就不应该这样呢？
I remember encountering the first libertarians when I was already, you know, working as a physicist and they were saying to me, why should we, why are we afraid of the Russians? I said, well, you know, what do you think they're going to invade the United States? Can you imagine rushing dating? I mean, if they invade, how are they going to control us? You know, they had these arguments. They were very funny arguments, you know. Why do we need an army? Why do we need taxes? And I really thought that was so provocative, so interesting. Do you consider yourself a libertarian? In many ways, I like the idea of liberty. I believe very strongly in it. I mean, this country was founded on that. I think that we're founding fathers really believed in it. And I admire them for that. I, you know, reading Jefferson and so on is really inspiring to me. I think that some of the political movement is a little bit odd. They always end up with political candidates that go nowhere and so on.
我记得我第一次接触到自由意志主义者时，已经是一名物理学家了。他们问我，为什么我们要害怕俄罗斯人？我回应说，难道你认为他们会入侵美国吗？你能想象他们入侵后要如何控制我们吗？他们提出的各种论点很有趣，其实挺搞笑的。比如说，为什么我们需要军队？为什么我们需要交税？这些观点让我觉得很有挑衅性，非常有意思。
你认为自己是个自由意志主义者吗？在很多方面，我喜欢自由这理念，我坚信自由。这国家就是以此为基础建立的，我认为我们的开国元勋们真的相信这一点，我很敬佩他们。读到杰斐逊等人的著作让我很受启发。不过，我觉得自由意志主义这政治运动有点奇怪，他们总推出一些没有前途的候选人。
What do you think that is? Why do you think that is? I think they're so rational. They're often among the smartest people. But they are not strategically smart. I've met at times libertarians, I think, you know, incredible thoughts. And they're working, they're living in Silicon Valley and they're poor. I mean, even though they're the ones who are supposed to know more poor, some are not. I'm saying it's very interesting. They choose presidential candidates, no one ever heard of. I think many of them are, you know, they are on the spectrum in a way that doesn't allow them to get into the minds of other people in a way that would allow them to convince other people about their arguments.
你怎么看待这件事？你为什么会这样认为？我觉得他们非常理性，经常是最聪明的人之一。但是，他们不太擅长战略性思考。我有时遇到一些自由意志主义者，我认为他们有着非凡的想法。他们在硅谷工作和生活，却很穷。我意思是，即使他们应该更了解贫穷，有些人还是过得不好。我觉得这很有趣。他们选择的总统候选人往往是没人听说过的。我认为他们中的许多人有点像在某个光谱上，这种特质使得他们无法以能说服他人的方式进入他人思维。
I mean, a lot of politics, as we know, show business, I mean, in this recent election, it was all posturing. It was all about grabbing emotion. It was not about logic. It was about emotion. Yeah, I have several of my people that, you know, they put all their money to freeze themselves. You're going to cry out yourself? No. My dad and I have had this running joke for a lot of years because someone we know very well and several people we know well have set aside significant amounts of money to have their heads or entire bodies frozen on the idea that they're going to be brought back later on solo style. You've always laughed at this idea. No, but not only that, there's a colleague of mine, a Stanford who accuses me of being friends with a guy that is like that. I told this guy, I said, you know, a few things that you're about influence on me. And the guy said, well, tell him that we're the ones who are going to come back and do what we believe. Yeah. He's going to be gone. I'm interested in living to be 200. It's not an issue. These people are interested in living for a 9,000 years. So when they wake up, they see how they were looked. They read science fiction. So they're very interested to know what they were looks like once they wake up. So there are people in the health space that are trying to not die, you know, Brian Johnson and others. I mean, what's your thought on trying to live to be 150 or something like that? Well, if you can live, the issue is not the age. Is the conditions of your body and mind. Okay. So that's the issue. I had the misfortune, unfortunately, having two parents that lived very long lives. One was incredibly, my father was incredibly lucid until the end. My mother had everything, you know, all every dimension and complications that came from, you know, being an anorexical her life and so on. So my father enjoyed being lucid until the end. And so he, you know, he didn't take care of himself physically so well. So the idea is if you live up to 100 or 150 or 200 and you can still do the things you enjoy in life is one thing. To be like my mother who couldn't even comprehend what was in front of her when you put a cup of tea, you know, then he's very sad, but it can happen at the age of 35, you know. So yeah, I'm not in to a race to live forever. I want to live healthily. I want to enjoy life. Enjoying is the most important piece. That's the point of being, you know, tethered to cues all over the place, you know, flat on a bed. And you say, oh, I made another year of my life. I mean, that's not really a life, at least for me.
翻译成中文：
我是说，很多政治，就像我们所知道的那样，像是演艺圈，尤其是在最近的选举中，全都是表面功夫。都是在抓住情感，而不是逻辑。完全是情绪化的反应。是的，我认识的几个人，把他们所有的钱都用来冷冻他们自己。你会这样做吗？不会。我和我爸爸多年来一直有这么一个玩笑，因为我们认识的人中，有好几个把相当多的钱存起来，准备将他们的头部或整个身体冷冻，希望像科幻小说里那样将来能复活。我们一直觉得这个主意很搞笑。不仅如此，我在斯坦福有个同事还指责我和这样的人是朋友。我告诉那个人，我说，你对我的影响真的是几件事情。他说，好吧，告诉他，我们才是将来活过来并实现我们信仰的人。他会消失的。我对活到200岁很感兴趣，这不是问题。这些人对活9000年很感兴趣。他们醒来后想看看自己以前的模样。他们读的是科幻小说，所以他们很想知道自己醒来后会是什么样子。所以，健康领域里有些人像 Brian Johnson 等，正在努力不让自己死去。我想知道你对活到150岁这样的事情有什么看法？如果你能活下去，问题不在于年龄，而在于你身体和精神的状态。这才是问题所在。我有幸也不幸地有两个长寿的父母。我的父亲一直非常清醒到最后。我的母亲则饱受种种问题困扰，如厌食症等，所以是两种情况。我父亲享受着直到最后保持清醒，而他并没有很好地照顾自己的身体。可如果你活到100岁、150岁、200岁，并且还能做你喜欢的事情，那是一回事。但要是像我母亲，她连面前的茶杯都不能理解，那就很悲哀了。但这种情况在35岁时就可能发生。所以，我不是为了活得更久而活。我想健康地生活，享受生活。享受才是最重要的。在床上插着各种管子的时候，你说，哦，我多活了一年。但这对我而言不算是生活。
Do you worry about or and or wish for anything for me, for Lara? Yes, to be super happy people. No, I don't want to use they were happy. I want to see you joyful. Joy, joy is more important than happiness. Joy is a state of mind. This is okay. Yeah, I said a list of things I want to have and I have them and I smile a lot. Joyfulness is the sense of being in yourself. And I would like that. I mean, you two are very different. Lara lives much more in the moment than you do for reasons. Okay, it's her view of the world. It's her demeanor. It's her demeanor. It's very good. I'm a large focus on what she's going to do this weekend. Yes. I'm focused on what I'm going to do this weekend next week, the next month and I would personally like to see you enjoying today and this weekend and that's it and everything else going to come to you. I believe and now I'm speaking in a way that is more paternal than anything else.
你会为我或拉拉担心或期待些什么吗？是的，希望你们成为超级快乐的人。我不想用"他们曾经很快乐"这样的说法。我想看到你们感受到真实的快乐。快乐比幸福更重要。快乐是一种心境。这很好。我列了一长串想要的东西，现在我得到了它们，也常常微笑。快乐是一种内心的满足，我希望你们能拥有这种感觉。我是说，你们两个人很不一样。拉拉比你更活在当下，她的世界观和性格就是这样。这很好。她更专注于这个周末要做什么，而我则专注于这个周末、下周、下个月要做什么。我个人希望看到你享受今天和这个周末，其他的一切都会随之而来。我相信这些，而我现在的表达可能更偏向父亲的角度。
I've been, you had a charmed life and everything came to you since you were very little and you exhibited, you know, behaviors and so on that everybody was even smiling, being impressed with you from the very beginning. I mean, it's not that you were a genius, a chess or a Rubik's Cube or anything. I know some kids that are like that, but there was something, something in there. And so I think that, you know, learning to just relax and rest, but it's part of your behavior since you were little, you had these problems. Okay, I used to take, put you in my lap and say it's going to be fine and say, well, what if I cannot do my homework? Okay.
从小到大，你的生活似乎一直很顺利，一切都轻而易举地来到你面前。你表现出的行为总是让人们微笑，并对你印象深刻。我不是说你是某方面的天才，比如国际象棋或魔方。我认识一些这样的孩子，但你身上有一种特殊的东西。我想，学会放松和休息是你从小时候起的行为模式的一部分，但这也带来了一些问题。过去，我常常把你抱在膝上，告诉你一切都会好的，比如当你担心作业做不完的时候。
But you could, or even my stuffed animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They say they gave you two people organized and two people. Well, I probably have, remember I had the grunting tick? Yes. Yeah. I probably, I probably have a little bit of an OCD type thing. I mean, not diagnostically, you know, significant, but when I bite down into something that I'm pursuing, it's very hard for me to think about anything else. No, I know. Well, we talked about it. When you were a Berkeley, once you told me that you were starting to run, but you wanted to run like everybody else was running, I don't know. I mean, he must.
但你可以，甚至是我那些毛绒玩具。对，对，对。他们说给你安排了两个人，还有两个人。嗯，我可能有，你记得我有那个咕哝的怪癖吗？对。嗯，我可能有一点强迫症倾向。我不是说诊断上有意义的那种，但当我集中精力追求某件事时，很难去想其他事情。我明白。我们谈过这个。当你在伯克利的时候，你告诉我你开始跑步，但你想像其他人一样跑步，我不太明白。他可能……
And instead of just- I heard there was a guy who had been in the department, Randy Nelson. He's now a professor in Ohio. Everybody just like off, you know, just in passing said, oh yeah, you know, Randy worked, you know, like 80 hours a week or 90 hours a week and I was like 95 hours. Yeah, I remember that. But what's interesting is I'm not a naturally competitive person. It was just this idea. Like I've tended to want to know, I've, and I've since stopped this, but there was a long time where I wanted to figure out what my body and mind were capable of. I just wanted to see like how high is that ceiling? And it was only when I almost suffocated on a scuba dive or when I was working to the point of exhaustion or, you know, or, and then I also realized that, you know, I published a number of papers to get tenure. Like I didn't need that many, but I enjoyed every one. It's not like I'm not having fun. I'm having fun. Yeah. This idea of pushing oneself to limits. The question is why.
而不是仅仅...我听说部门里以前有个叫兰迪·尼尔森的人，他现在是俄亥俄州的一位教授。大家聊起他时总是随口提到，说哦，是啊，兰迪一周工作80小时或90小时，我还记得是95小时。不过有趣的是，我不是个天生好胜的人。对我来说，这只是个想法。我以前总是想知道我的身体和精神能达到什么程度。我只想看看那个极限在哪里。直到我在一次潜水时差点窒息，或者工作到极度疲惫时，才意识到这一点。后来我也认识到，我发表了很多论文以获得终身教职，虽然其实没必要发表那么多，但我乐在其中。这并不是说我没有在享受，我很享受这种推动自己到极限的想法。问题是，为什么会这样？
I mean, I think there is so much to enjoy on a regular life and the things that we have already. We have to work to get them the way we want. I don't think that worrying for the sake of worrying or just worrying. I mean, I don't tend to worry. Well, you know what changed that for me in a major way. I mean, I've had moments. I've had moments. I think I can recall like I have a favorite best day of my life moment. I won't share it here. It's not, it's not relevant right now, but Costello helped bring me into the moment. Yeah. Like he would do these things that like I would delight in that were just so simple. Like the way he would like pull like fall over or something or. You know, I think that like having another creature there that that is very much in the moment brings you into the moment. Right. And we're very connected to it too.
我的意思是，我认为在日常生活中有很多值得享受的事情，包括我们已经拥有的东西。我们需要努力去达到我们想要的状态。我不认为为了担心而担心是有意义的，我本身不是个容易忧虑的人。你知道，当时有件事彻底改变了我的这种看法。我经历过一些瞬间，我想我能回忆起我人生中最美好的一天。不过我就不在这里分享了，现在也不相关，但我能说的是，科斯特罗让我活在当下。他会做一些我觉得很简单但让人开心的事情，比如他跌倒的方式。你知道，我觉得当有另一个生命体在场并且活在当下时，它能够带你进入那个瞬间。我们也与之息息相关。
I mean, I think that if you were connected to someone that has that property of bringing you down and so on, you would start enjoying it. Yeah. The people I've had amazing partners, as you know, some less than amazing, but many amazing partners and they and they tended to be also kind of into the future, like focus on what's not quite there yet. I must say, I think women in general do it better than men that they're better like grounding to the present. Well, depends. I think that my wife tends to be more anxious than I am about if you. So maybe it's not general. Well, I tend well in trying to sort of, you know, tell her that she shouldn't worry so much. I think that I also suddenly reflect what am I doing here?
我的意思是，如果你与一个总是让你消沉的人有联系，可能会开始习惯这种感觉。我有过一些非常优秀的伴侣，也有一些不太优秀的，但很多都很出色。他们往往更关注未来，关注那些尚未实现的事情。我必须承认，女性通常比男性更擅长活在当下。当然，这也因人而异。我觉得我妻子可能比我更容易焦虑。所以也许不能一概而论。我经常试图告诉她不要过于担心，同时我也会反思我为什么在这里。
And I try to also slow down myself. I think that, you know, yeah, I think you're someone who's running from one thing to the other. Say colloquially, but it would be nice if you said, okay, I'm fine. You know, you have a podcast that is doing well. You don't have to worry what the podcast is going to be doing in five years. No, I don't think out that far. I don't think about the career piece. I think that I, I mean, I often don't have a plan. I know what we're going to do this year. I don't know what we're going to do after that. But professionally, I think, look, I think part of it was science. I mean, we're talking about a lot of things, but for many years, right, from the time I like squared my life away and when I turned 19, it was like, okay, I'm going to get things right now. There's always been these milestones. You're going to finish your undergraduate degree. I did a master.
我尝试着让自己慢下来。我觉得你知道，就是这样的，我觉得你是那种从一件事跑到另一件事的人。通俗地说，可能你可以告诉自己，没关系，你的播客现在运行得很好。你不必担心它五年后的发展。我其实不会考虑那么长远，也不会过多考虑职业规划。很多时候我没有一个明确的计划。我知道今年会做什么，但之后的事情就不确定了。但在职业方面，我觉得，看看吧，我觉得部分是科学的原因。我们谈论了很多事情，但从我19岁整理好自己的生活开始，好像就是要把一切都搞定。一直都有这些里程碑，比如完成本科，然后我又读了个硕士。
They did a PhD, then the postdoc, then you're going to need to get tenure. You know, I think the academic system was a system of two to five year bursts, like, like sprinting marathons in many ways to try and, you know, grab the next thing to get to the next level. And there was a lot of uncertainty for a long time. You know, I think I'm finally now coming into a place of certainty, like feelings of like, oh, like things are good and they've gone great. But yeah, but it's hard. Oh, of course it's hard. Especially if you have that kind of temperament. Yes. And I think you need to train yourself almost to, I just had the words that are, it's a matter of bringing elegance into your life almost, to live it in a way that is elegant, is nice in itself, you know. That is important. One of the things I learned, I mean, you know, living with a dain, dains don't like you to eat standing. They sit at a table and they light a candle and, you know, it's very nice. It creates a place.
他们先完成了博士学位，然后做了博士后研究，然后你需要获得终身教职。你知道，我觉得学术体系是一种两到五年一次的冲刺式系统，就像马拉松式的短跑，为了争取下一步晋升。这个过程中有很长时间的不确定性。不过，我觉得我终于进入了一个确定性的阶段，感觉一切都很好。当然，这很难。哦，当然这很困难。特别是如果你有那种性格的话。是的，我认为你几乎需要训练自己以一种优雅的生活方式来生活，这本身就是美好的。这很重要。我学到的一件事是，和丹麦人一起生活时，他们不喜欢你站着吃东西。他们会坐在餐桌旁，点一支蜡烛，这非常好，营造了一种氛围。
They're ritual. They're ritual. Rituals are very important. And also the other thing that is very important, and I discovered, is to have something to look forward to. You cannot just wake up on this and now what? There has to be something. Okay, that's important. I mean, you know, we all have that. So Rogan talks about this thing about, you know, because he has a podcast, he does four episodes a week, plus he's an announcer at the UFC. He has his comedy career. He has three kids. He's in a happy marriage. And, you know, he's really into working out and all this. And he, I heard something recently, it was actually the forward to Cameron Haines' book. I was listening to it and he, it was amazing. He said, you know, you have to approach your life, no matter how busy or how simple as a kind of work of art. Like you can't just think of it as daily life. You have to have some macroscopic view of this so that you know where to put things. And it's a lot of what you're saying as well. Like, yeah, life has to have elegance. Otherwise it's just disjoint moments and sometimes it would be like that and it can be very creative too. But most of the idea is to really get into something.
这是仪式。这是仪式。仪式非常重要。我还发现，另一件非常重要的事情是要有值得期待的东西。你不能只是醒来然后问自己，接下来做什么？必须有一些期待的目标。这是重要的。我们都有这种需要。罗根谈到这个话题，他有一个播客节目，每周做四集，而且他还是UFC的解说员，有自己的喜剧事业，还有三个孩子，婚姻幸福，并且热衷于健身。我最近听到了一个很棒的说法，是卡梅伦·海恩斯的书的前言。他说，无论生活多么忙碌或简单，都要把它当作一件艺术品来对待。你不能只是把它当作日常生活来看待，你需要有一个宏观的视角，这样你就知道该在哪里安排事情。你说的很多也是这个意思，生活要有优雅。否则，它就只是一些不连贯的时刻，尽管有时也可能会很有创意。但大多时候，还是要真正投入到一些事情中。
I mean, I personally think that when you describe me as being very steady or whatever, sounds are very boring too, for that matter, right? I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's a beauty in steadiness because from places of steadiness you can take good risks. Well, right. I mean, and I think that my mind is not, you know, in a steady, you know, the state. But I don't have these notes. I have to see things. Everybody's talking about something. I have to see it. I never felt like that. No. I mean, I'd like to see things. Don't misunderstand me. But it's very important for me to be in the moment and do things the way I like them to do. I don't seem to need to go on like jungle adventures or like where I skate across Antarctica. Like you've never been one for like the kind of wild outing. No, the wild outing is here. That's my wild outing. Yeah, I can have very wild thoughts about things that I would like, you know, sometimes they're totally wrong and so on. But yeah, in a funny way, I am a little bit of what the French call in armchair, philosopher or whatever. You know, these people who write articles about France and Africa without ever having left France or something or so on. So I'm not like that. But I don't necessarily crave this physical adventure for the sake of adventure. I like beautiful things.
我的意思是，我个人觉得，当你形容我为非常稳重或类似的词时，这听起来有点无聊，对吧？我不是很确定。其实，稳重是有其美好之处的，因为从稳重的状态中，你可以安全地冒险。我的意思是，我的思维可能不是一直处于稳定的状态。但是我没有像别人谈论的那些计划。我需要亲眼看到事情。我从来没有这样觉得。我是说，我喜欢看事物的样子，请不要误会我。但是对我来说，保持在当下并按照自己喜欢的方式做事是非常重要的。我似乎不需要去丛林探险或横穿南极这样疯狂的冒险。你从来不是那种喜欢狂野出游的人。对我来说，这里就是我的狂野冒险。我可以对想做的事情产生非常狂野的想法，有时这些想法会很荒谬等等。但有趣的是，我有点像法国人所谓的“扶手椅哲学家”，就是那种从未离开过法国却写文章谈论法国和非洲的人。不过我并不真的是那样的人。我不一定会为了冒险而追求身体上的冒险。我喜欢美好的事物。
And I don't mind repeating the same beautiful thing every year if necessary, going vacation to the same place and so on. Yeah, you like to go back to the same place. Well, there's a difference between tourism where you see new things and so on. I like that. There's also the idea of vacation, which you just sit and enjoy what you have. I confess I've not ever done it. And you know this about me.
我不介意每年重复同样的美好事情，比如去同一个地方度假等等。对，你喜欢回到同一个地方。旅游和度假的区别在于，旅游是去看新事物等等，我喜欢那样。而度假是指坐下来享受已有的东西。我承认我从未这样做过，你了解我的。
I've never taken a vacation. You know, do the summer house in Denmark. You can spend a week there just enjoying it. That's it. I know if I show you pictures, you know, from the window, they see the deer in the garden. You know, they just sit there. You know, it's nice. So there's nothing, you know, it's nice. You cannot spend a life doing that. You know, I'm not a monk. Okay, I'm not a meditator that will spend hours on this. But you know, it's nice to rest. You know, it's very important, I think. And the rituals are important to you. Very important.
我从没度过假。你知道的，比如在丹麦租个夏季小屋。可以在那儿待上一周，只是享受生活。就是这样。我知道如果我给你看照片，你就会明白，他们能从窗户看到花园里的鹿。它们就坐在那里。你知道的，这挺不错的。当然，人生不能总这样过。你知道，我不是和尚，也不是那种会花几个小时冥想的人。但是，休息还是很好的。我认为这非常重要。而且那些仪式对你来说也很重要，非常重要。
Yes. Yeah. The rituals have a, it's also a very reassuring because then you know it's predictable, right? You don't want to totally unpredictable life all the time. That's what people create rituals. You know. You early on taught me about etiquette. You know, it's something that years later, I think it was probably in the mid 90s. For some reason, we were at the movies together and we saw some people at the movies and they were wearing their bathroom slippers. And more or less, they're pajamas to the movies. And I'll never forget, you grabbed my arm. Like you didn't grab it forcefully. We'd grab you. So you see that? And you said, people are coming to the movies and they're pajamas. I said, yeah. And you said, that's the beginning of the end to any society. And I thought you were joking. But you know, it's something I thought about a lot.
是的。仪式感让人感到很安心，因为这意味着事情是可预测的，对吧？你不想一直过着完全不可预测的生活。这就是人们创造仪式的原因。你知道的。你早早就教会了我一些礼仪。很多年后，大概是在90年代中期吧，我们一起去看电影。我们看到一些人穿着家居拖鞋，差不多就是睡衣去看电影。我永远不会忘记，你抓住了我的胳膊，虽然不是用力地抓。你说，看到了吗？人们穿着睡衣去看电影。我说，是的。你说，这是任何社会走向衰落的开始。我当时以为你是在开玩笑。但你知道，这件事我想了很久。
You also said, and I'll never forget, you know, you're always better off being overdressed. Because then at least your class that you're speaking to or your hosts, etc. They know that you took them seriously. And I don't think we really appreciate etiquette. As Americans, especially, we've somehow confused freedom of choice with discarding etiquette. Yes. Yeah, it's not something you hear discussed very much, but what about etiquette? Well, there are many components. I think the most important one is a societal one. I mean, one of the things that I like, for instance, if you go to England, how polite people are.
你还说过一句话，我永远不会忘记，你知道的，穿得更正式总是更好的选择。因为至少你所交流的班级或你的主人等会知道你是认真的。我们并不真正重视礼仪。尤其是美国人，我们在某种程度上将选择自由与抛弃礼仪混为一谈。是的。这不是一个经常被讨论的话题，那么，关于礼仪呢？有很多方面。我认为最重要的是社会层面。比如，我很喜欢的一点是，在英国，人们是多么有礼貌。
So, the kindness is a virtue. And for lightness, the higher the social class, the higher the demand to be polite. It's behavior. It's being nice to people. It's understanding what they are. And associated with that, there are codes. Some of them are behavior or some of them are dress codes. I had a brilliant economist, Italian economist working with me. And now he's in these codes who told me he went to a wedding in Italy after living in the United States. And he went to his cousin's wedding, and his uncle said, you show no respect. You're not wearing cufflinks. He said, well, but my shirt is all but none go home and get cufflinks because you're showing lack of respect for not dressing the proper way to this wedding.
善良是一种美德。对于社交礼仪而言，社会阶层越高，对礼仪的要求也就越高。这是一种行为：对人友善，理解他们所代表的意义。与此相关的是一些礼仪规范，包括行为规范和着装规范。我曾有一位出色的意大利经济学家同事。他告诉我，他在美国生活了一段时间后，回到意大利参加了一场婚礼。他去参加表亲的婚礼，他的叔叔对他说：“你不尊重人，没有带袖扣。”他说：“我的衬衫干净整洁。”但是叔叔坚持让他回家拿袖扣，因为没有按适当的方式穿着参加婚礼就是不尊重。
So I think that there are expectations that people have of a certain types of behavior. I mean, if you look at the pictures of what's going on now in Washington, so on, you notice that Mr. Elon Musk who's always in a T-shirt that says, let's go to Mars, suddenly he's wearing a tuxedo because now at least now he's part of a group of people that are behaving like government officials should behave. You don't go in sandals and shorts. But Silicon Valley is famous for the flip flops and the hoodies. Right, because the problem is that people confuse the style with the message. They think that because you wear a hoodie because Mark Zuckerberg was wearing hoodies, makes you brilliant.
所以我认为人们对某种行为有一定的期望。我是说，如果你看看现在华盛顿发生的事情的照片等等，你会注意到一直穿着印有“去火星吧”T恤的埃隆·马斯克突然穿上了晚礼服，因为他现在至少成为了一个像政府官员那样表现的人群的一部分。你不可能穿着凉鞋和短裤。但硅谷以人字拖和连帽衫闻名，对吧，因为问题在于人们混淆了风格和信息。他们认为因为你穿连帽衫，而马克·扎克伯格也穿连帽衫，所以你就很聪明。
And I think that the issue of dress codes elicit a certain sense of behavior in people, as you said. I mean, how would you feel if you went on a first date with someone that comes in and care slippers and a bathrobe and say, let's go to the movies? It's not happened yet. Well, okay. So what I'm saying is you don't have to overdo it. That's another issue. You have to also conform to the roles of the society. I noticed, for instance, that in the East Coast people dress much more properly than in the West Coast. You go to New York and you see men wearing suits and ties. You don't see that here. Grabbing in LA, not in the Bay Area, ever.
我认为，正如你所说，着装规范会引发人们的某种行为。举个例子，如果你第一次约会时，对方穿着拖鞋和浴袍来说“我们去看电影吧”，你会有什么感觉？这种情况还没发生过。不过，我的意思是，你不必太夸张，但也要符合社会角色的期望。我注意到，例如在东海岸，人们穿得更加得体，而在西海岸就不是这样。在纽约，你会看到男人穿着西装打领带；而在洛杉矶、旧金山湾区等地方，你几乎看不到这样穿着的人。
One thing that you pointed out is that at any wedding in Argentina, men keep their jackets and ties. Oh, and the whole night, I've always kept my jacket and tie on the entire night. In the United States, it's almost like moments after people arrive at any party in a suit, they start undressing. Yeah, right. Why did they dress up then? Yeah. Okay. So that's my view. I'm not necessarily someone that I have a case wearing a tie when I got to work and so on, but I really believe that there are codes of conduct that sort of reflect many things. And you're also, you're projecting a message, right? I mean, the idea of a hoodie, I want one or the other, first of all, was hurting behavior. Everybody had to wear one because then you're cool or whatever. Okay.
你提到过，在阿根廷的婚礼上，男士们总是保持西装和领带整齐。而且，整晚我都会一直穿着我的西装和领带。在美国，感觉仿佛人们刚到派对没多久，就开始脱掉正式装扮。对啊，那他们穿得那么正式做什么呢？这是我的看法。我倒不是说自己特别喜欢上班时打领带之类的，但是我真的觉得有些行为规范是反映很多东西的。你也在传递一种信息，对吧？就比如说，穿连帽衫背后其实是种群体行为。大家都得穿才能显得很酷，诸如此类。
In other lessons, I understand it. I mean, that's what you do as another lesson. You do what others do. But as you grow up, you can also signal whom you are by the way you dress and you behave. But what do you think about the discourse on platforms like X where you can see a mix, including a lot of academics and high level thinkers acting kind of like teenagers? Well, okay. They want to be popular. They want to throw attention. Yeah, this is kind of a new thing. I mean, I mean, I won't name names, but some people who are considered some of the smartest people in the world, like what they, their discourse on social media is like, I mean, they wouldn't last two seconds on the schoolyard is how they get hit in the face. You know, they suck weird, like grown men acting kind of like teenagers.
在其他课程中，我是理解的。我的意思是，这是你在另一节课中所做的事情。你做别人所做的事情。但是，随着你成长，通过穿着和行为你也可以表达自己是谁。不过，你怎么看待像X这样的平台上看到的一些言论，其中包括很多学者和高水平的思考者表现得有点像青少年？嗯，好吧，他们想要受欢迎，他们想要吸引注意力。这可以说是一种新的现象。我就不指名道姓了，但是一些被认为是世界上最聪明的人，他们在社交媒体上的发言表现得像是，他们在学校操场上可能坚持不了两秒钟，就会被打脸的感觉。成年人表现得像青少年，有点奇怪。
Okay. Well, that's, they have a problem because they want to be thought of as young. That's a whole different story. Okay. That's a different story. Now, having said what I said, I respect that some people eventually reflect on whether or not they rules the rules that, you know, that rule, you know, that rules are safe, how you should dress to do one thing or the other are not do not operate for you. And then you decide to be very different. You know, there are many people who are like that and like to be iconoclastic. I hear many stories of what we were talking about, Richard Feynman, who actually made a case, I mean, Mary Gellman used to say that about him to be so different that people will talk about it because he was very interested in people telling stories about bongo German naked on the roof, not rushing his teeth. Exactly. All that.
Okay. So, but he, he was very good at drawing attention. Okay. That's fine. You can also draw attention by dressing very nicely. You know, it's all, it's all a matter of, I mean, I was reflecting, you know, we're we go to the symphony in San Francisco regularly and we are donors and so on. Sometimes you go to a concert. It's an amazing thing. What you see there, some people nicely dressed, some people dressed as they just woke up. They didn't have time to get dressed and, you know, got there, you know, and whatever. And they do. But do you think that going back to the initial, you know, ping of the question, do you think that that we have societally gone that we're sort of drifting towards like, for lack of a better word chaos?
好的。他们有个问题，因为他们想被认为是年轻人。这是完全不同的故事。好吧，这是个不同的故事。现在，说了这些话之后，我尊重那些最终对规则进行反思的人，比如那些所谓关于你应该怎么穿着去做这件事或那件事的规则是否真正适合自己的反思。然后你就决定变得非常不同。你知道，有很多这样的人，他们喜欢打破传统。我听过很多这样的故事，比如我们谈论理查德·费曼时。事实上，玛丽·盖尔曼过去就总是说他就是这么特别，以至于人们会谈论他，因为他确实对人们讲述那些关于他在屋顶上不刷牙打着鼓又裸体的故事非常感兴趣。没错，就是那些。
不过，他确实很擅长吸引注意力。好，这也没问题。你也可以通过穿得非常漂亮来吸引注意。你知道，这完全是一种——我一直在反思，比如我们定期去旧金山听交响乐，并且是捐助者。有时候你去听演出，看到的东西很神奇：有些人穿得很得体，而有些人看起来像是刚刚醒来、没时间换衣服似的，就那样匆匆赶来。可是，你认为，回到最初的问题，你觉得我们作为一个社会，是不是有点漂向混乱，缺乏更好的词来形容？
So, so social interaction chaos. Well, you know, I think the pendulum will swing again. The other day I was talking to some reading actually that suddenly not only New York, but in the Midwest, men are starting to wear jacket and ties, not just for work. Okay. They go on dates like that. So, you know, it's a pendulum. He goes back and forth, back and forth. I don't think we're going to end up at a time when, you know, you have to wear tails to, to have a breakfast or something. I think only the Ristocross used to do that. I think that, you know, it's an issue of how also how we perceive the world through the eyes of television and movies. Okay. If movies start showing and everybody's dressed, whatever, you know, people are going to do the same thing.
社交互动真的有点混乱。不过，我觉得情况会再度变化。前几天，我看到一些报道说，不仅在纽约，中西部的男人们也开始不仅仅在上班时穿西装和领带了，他们约会时也这么打扮。所以说，这就像一个钟摆，来回摆动。我不认为我们会回到那种必须穿燕尾服吃早餐的时代，我觉得那只是贵族才会做的事情。这也涉及到我们通过电视和电影来感知世界的方式。如果电影中大家都穿着某种风格的衣服，人们也可能会跟着效仿。
If movies start showing, you know, the trends that we see movies are the trends that essentially society follows. Okay. So, I think that we did this is, I don't think we're going to chaos. It's going to revert. California is a particular place because it has always been a place where people in order to feel free, they had to dress differently and who cares and all that stuff. But it's not everywhere. Yeah. It's kind of interesting that now counterculture is conservatism. Right. Right. We're back to that. The anti-war group is more conservative anyway. It's, you know, people like, you know, it's interesting how Americans are fascinated with English aristocracy and traditions.
如果电影开始展示趋势，你知道，我们在电影中看到的趋势基本上是社会会跟随的趋势。好的。所以，我认为我们做到这一点是因为，我不认为我们会走向混乱。这种趋势会反转。加利福尼亚是一个特别的地方，因为在那里，为了感到自由，人们总是要穿得与众不同，不在乎别人怎么看之类的。不过，并不是所有地方都这样。有趣的是，现在的反文化运动却变成了保守主义。对，就是这样。反战群体现在变得更加保守。你知道，美国人对英国贵族和传统的迷恋也很有意思。
I've been to high table dinner at King's College in Cambridge twice. You know, everybody dresses properly. They wear gowns and they fellas are sitting at a top table and everybody else and people have it. And we'd like to see that in the movies. Well, it's theater. Yeah. I mean, it's academic theater, a little bit of pomp and circumstance, but it's theater. I'd say, well, we have the same thing on commencement, you know, traditions and so on. Yeah. No parent wants to go to a graduation that's, you know, kind of a free for all. They want to see some order. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, there is a place for that. And some people will, I mean, there are designers and so on of clothing and so on that exploit. There's nostalgia for that kind of elegant world, you know, Ralph Lauren and so on. It's always, you know, 1960s, fancy, you know, club type clothing and so on.
我曾经两次参加剑桥大学国王学院的高桌晚宴。你知道的，大家都穿得很正式。他们穿着学位服，绅士们坐在上面的桌子上，其他人坐在下面。我们在电影里也能看到这样的场景。它就像是一场戏剧，对吧？我觉得这更像是一种学术表演，有点儿形式感和仪式感，但确实是种戏剧。我想，我们在毕业典礼上也能看到类似的传统。没有家长希望参加一个乱哄哄的毕业典礼，他们希望看到一些秩序。确实如此。我认为这样的安排还是有它存在的意义的。还有一些人，比如那些服装设计师，利用这种对优雅世界的怀旧情感。像拉尔夫·劳伦这样的品牌，一直以来都在强调上世纪六十年代的精致俱乐部风格服装。
So do you plan to ever retire? I don't know what it means. I mean, if retire, no, no, because I'm not a postal worker. I'm not a cook at a restaurant that eventually says, okay, I cooked it long enough that I collect my retirement and go home. I have a mind that it works and I need an environment where that mind can thrive and I need an environment where, you know, for one year when I left Hewlett Packard, I was basically, I took a course in general activity and so on. But I was really a very idle. So suddenly, I mean, in a context where people have problems and so on that I'd really like to listen to this social component to work as you know.
你有计划退休吗？我不知道这意味着什么。我是说，如果要退休，不，我不会，因为我不是邮递员，也不是餐馆厨师，我不是那种做够了就可以领取退休金回家的职业。我有一个活跃的头脑，需要一个能让这个头脑茁壮成长的环境。比如，当我离开惠普的那一年，我基本上就是在修一些普通的课程，但实际上我感觉很无所事事。所以，突然之间，我发现自己处在一个人们面临各种问题的环境中，这种社会因素让我非常感兴趣并想参与其中，因为这也是一种工作方式。
So retirement means what, you know, you're a postal worker and one day you stop delivering mail and you stay home watching the paint dry and that's not me. Okay. So to me, I'm working and I enjoy it and, you know, the day that will come that I cannot enjoy it, I'll stop. And I think that again goes with this issue of getting bored with things that you don't like to do because you've done it for a long time. Now I enjoy my life but I don't think in terms of, I'll say something, my CEO of my company said, great guy, Phil McEnany said, whenever I don't work for the money here, I said, I don't either. I mean, I like to get paid but I don't like it. I'll walk and I can do that. So it's not that I'm doing this for the income. That's what I'm trying to say.
退休意味着什么呢？比如说，你是个邮递员，有一天你不再送信，而是呆在家里看油漆干了，那不是我。对我来说，我喜欢工作，而我也享受工作。如果有一天我不再享受它，我就会停止。我认为这也涉及到一个问题，就是对自己做了很长时间但不喜欢的事情感到厌倦。现在我很享受我的生活，我不需要考虑这方面的事情。我公司的CEO菲尔·麦克纳尼是个很棒的人，他说过，每当我不是为了这里的工资而工作的时候，我也不是。我是说，我喜欢拿工资，但我并不执着于此。如果哪天我不喜欢了，我可以走，我能做到。所以，我想说的是，我不是为了收入而工作。
It seems like you've never pursued money for its own sake. No. Have you ever encouraged me to pursue money for no zones? But as my cousin, the physicist used to say, money doesn't bring happiness but it points in the right direction. I would say money doesn't bring happiness but it can buffer stress. Right. And it allows you to have the things you want to have and you don't have to, absolutely, absolutely. Right. Yeah. I think money is an important aspect of our lives, you know, having it and so on. I live for many years as a graduate student with no money and it was very painful. I'll tell you. Sometimes I didn't eat dinner because I didn't have any money. So I like having money to do the things that I like but I don't work for money. Many people say, well, you know, I invented so many things I could have started in some common in these companies and make a lot of money. I don't really, I don't regret that at all. The ultra-rich people that I know who are happy are still working every day. Right. Because beyond a certain amount of money, you still have to brush your teeth like everybody else.
看起来你从未单纯为了钱而追求它。对吧。你有没有鼓励我为了纯粹赚钱的目的去追求财富？不过，我那个当物理学家的表亲曾经说过，钱不一定能带来幸福，但它能指明正确的方向。我倒觉得，钱不一定能带来幸福，但它确实能缓解压力。没错。而且它能让你拥有想要的东西，并且不必，为了这些一定要去。绝对是这样的。是的，我认为钱是我们生活中的一个重要方面，拥有钱等等。我曾经作为一个研究生过了许多年，身无分文，那段时间非常痛苦。有时候我甚至没法吃晚餐，因为没钱。所以我喜欢有钱去做我喜欢的事，但我不为钱而工作。很多人说，他们发明了很多东西，可以创办公司赚很多钱，但我一点也不后悔。那些我认识的非常富有且幸福的人每天仍然工作。因为钱达到一定程度之后，你仍然和别人一样需要刷牙。
Okay. You can dream of having 152 brushes but so what? Right. And you can only eat so many steaks. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that we all cover. The question is what do you do with your life? Now, you want to travel or you can travel. It's nice if you can travel, you know, in better ways than being an undergrad with the backpacker that can be a bit true. I have fun backpacking. Yeah. You're on a limited budget where, you know, part of the joy of traveling that way is you're thrown into kind of street level interactions. I think you've hostels and things like that. I went through Europe like this. I wouldn't change that for anything. No, I went through Europe as a graduate student. I quit everything. I went through Europe in winter. And it was quite an adventure. In the winter?
好的。你可以梦想拥有152把刷子，但那又怎样呢？对吧。而且，你能吃的牛排也就那么多。是的，是的，这些我们都知道。问题是，你要如何度过你的人生？现在，你想要旅行，或者你能够旅行。能够旅行当然不错，你知道的，比起只带着背包的大学生，要有条件一些会更好些。我喜欢背包旅行啦。是的，当你的预算有限时，旅行的乐趣之一就是你会体验到各种街头互动。我去过欧洲，看过那些旅舍之类的。对于这种经历，我绝对不会有所改变。我是研究生时去的欧洲。我放下一切，在冬天去的。这真是一次冒险。在冬天吗？
And it was horrendous. I had very little money. I stayed in places where in Paris where the lady in the little hotel would turn off the light if I turn around in the middle of the night. It was awful. And yet to save energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was very funny. But I met people that were interesting and I engaged, you know, I still, I still, every once in a while, I hear from one or two of those people I met years ago in trains. I went by train everywhere. I ended up in Denmark in the middle of winter, you know. Everything seems to lead back to Denmark. Yeah, it's a nice country. Well, now you have a Danish wife.
这段经历是痛苦的。当时我几乎没有什么钱。在巴黎，我住的地方是那种小旅馆，旅馆里的老妇人会在半夜我稍微动一下时关掉灯。为了节约能源，这种情况很可怕。然而，也很有趣，因为我遇到了很多有趣的人，我依然和其中一两位保持联系，那些年我在火车上认识的人。我到处坐火车，最终在冬天到了丹麦。所有事情似乎都引导我回到丹麦。是的，这是一个不错的国家。而且，现在我还有一个丹麦妻子。
Yeah. And have for a long time. And have for a long time. Yeah, yeah. I, yeah. I like it. It's a very different contrast to Europe, the central Europe and so on, you know, then northern Europe, Denmark, Sweden, Norway. It's a very special kind of, you know, country and people. Yeah, I like them a lot. Life is very easy there. I like Scandinavia. Yeah. Yeah, it's very nice. Yes. Good, good, good natured people. Yes. Good saunas. Yeah, everything. Yes. And sunshine, at least in the summer. In the summer only. Yeah.
嗯，已经很久了。对，对。我是说，我很喜欢。它与欧洲中部以及北欧的一些地方，比如丹麦、瑞典、挪威，形成了非常不同的对比。那些国家和那里的人民很特别。是的，我非常喜欢他们。生活在那里很轻松。我喜欢斯堪的纳维亚。是的，那里的生活很好。是的，人们非常友好。是的，好的桑拿。是的，一切都很好。还有阳光，至少在夏天。只有在夏天才能看到阳光。
Any plans for the next couple of years, anything that we should put on the calendar, make sure that we get in? No, because I cannot plan that well. I don't plan. I just need either. Maybe I inherited it. Well, I just move. I just move intuitive. I'm very intuitive about these things. I suddenly see something in all this quantum stuff. I don't know. I started hearing about it. I talked to a brilliant guy who was in my lab and said, hey, what do you think about these? He said, sounds interesting. Let's do it. And we're doing it. I'm lucky that I get paid to do that. But, no, I don't have plans like that. I would like to, we would like, I mean, we would like to organize our life a little bit differently now that we have a summer house in Denmark and so on. I still plan to travel there. I like Europe a lot. But I don't know if I can live there. I like Switzerland a lot. I want to go to Argentina every year. And I feel very close to my family. That's very important. We are all going for an event there. I hope that you can join us if you can. So those things are very important to me. But I, no, I don't have plans for anything. I don't know. I'd like to be surprised.
对未来几年的计划有什么吗？有没有什么我们应该记在日历上的，确保不会错过的事情呢？没有，因为我不能计划得那么远。我不怎么做计划。我可能是遗传了这种性格。我就是凭直觉走。我对这些事情很有直觉。有时候我突然会对某个量子相关的东西感兴趣。说实话，我也不知道具体是什么。我开始听说这些东西，然后和实验室里一个聪明的家伙聊了聊。我问他觉得怎么样。他说听起来挺有趣的，我们就决定尝试一下。幸好，我可以通过做这些事来挣钱。不过，我没有那种长远的计划。我倒是希望我们能稍微理顺一下我们的生活，比如现在我们在丹麦有个度假屋。我还是计划去那儿旅行，我很喜欢欧洲，但我不知道自己能否在那边生活。我很喜欢瑞士，我每年都想去阿根廷。我和我的家人关系很亲密，这对我很重要。我们都要去参加一个活动，希望你也能来。所以这些事情对我来说很重要。不过，我没有其他计划。我想被生活的惊喜所打动。
Well, dad, I want to extend a real sense of gratitude from me, from everyone listening and watching. Although you may argue that they're not going to be interested. This has been our back and forth over the last months as I've tried to convince you to do this podcast. I can assure you that they were, they are very interested. Their story is a really unique one. And I can say that both as your son, but also as somebody who's sat across from scientists from all different domains and backgrounds, not just neuroscientists.
好的，爸爸，首先我想表达我及所有收听和观看我们的观众对你的由衷感谢。尽管你可能会认为他们不会感兴趣，这也是过去几个月我试图说服你参与这次播客过程中我们一直争论的问题。但我可以向你保证，他们确实非常感兴趣。你的故事真的很独特。我不仅以你的儿子的身份这样说，也以一个曾与各个领域背景的科学家交流过的人这样说，而不仅仅是神经科学家。
I also really appreciate your ability to explain complicated things in ways that at least we can start to get an understanding because these are hard concepts. And I think what comes through so clearly is that somehow you've been able to grab these high level, really abstract concepts and work with them and try and understand them. But you've also been able to lead a life where you're really grounded in the day to day and in reality.
我非常欣赏你能将复杂的事物以一种让我们至少开始理解的方式解释出来，因为这些概念本身很难理解。而且，我觉得很明显的是，你能够抓住这些高层次、非常抽象的概念，并努力去理解它们。但同时，你也能过上脚踏实地、接触现实的生活。
And I have to say your wish for me and for Lara, and I assume for everyone else to be joyful. I'll work on that. And also, I must say it just hit me like square in the face during this discussion that I get such peace and I can really focus on being joyful knowing that you're joyful. Like it's so clear that you have a joyful life at so many levels and that you pursued what you wanted to do over and over.
我必须说，你希望我和拉拉，以及我猜测所有其他人快乐的愿望，我会努力实现。而且，我必须说，在这次讨论中，我突然意识到，我感到非常平静，并能真正专注于快乐，因为知道你很快乐。这让我清楚地看到，你在很多层面上都有一个快乐的生活，而且你一直追求自己想做的事情。
And you know, some people may have tuned into this podcast thinking that we were going to get into our issues and things like that. But I'll just briefly say that, yeah, we've had our ups, we've had our downs and we've certainly landed up and much, much higher than we ever would had we not had all of that. And as I told you last year, around this time on your birthday, when we all got together to celebrate, like we're not just good, we're beyond good.
你知道，有些人可能听这个播客是想了解我们的问题之类的。不过我简单说一下，是的，我们有过高潮，也有过低谷，但正是这些经历让我们达到了比预期更高的高度。就像去年这个时候在你生日聚会时我对你说的，我们不仅仅是好，而是超级好。
So anything that comes up around that, I want to just go on record saying that like that's water under the bridge and I don't ever think about it. All I think about are the incredible gifts that you've given me about curiosity and pursuing my curiosity about putting new footprints on untread beaches, the early discussions around the excitement that science can bring.
所以关于这件事，我想表明立场：这些都已经是过去的事了，我从未再想过。我现在所珍视的，是你赋予我的好奇心和追求好奇心的能力，是在未踏足的海滩上留下新足迹的勇气，以及我们早期关于科学带来的激动人心的讨论。
I mean, I remember all of it. I really remember all of it and in immense detail. And I love your stories about scientists, both how they soar and also how human they are and how they're fallible like the rest of us. So there's not a day that goes by where I don't thank God because I do believe in God, that you're my father, that you and mom created me and Laura and that I've had the life that I have and that I continue to have the life that I have.
我的意思是，我真的记得所有的事情，而且记得非常清楚。我喜欢你讲述科学家的故事，他们的辉煌和他们作为普通人的一面，以及他们和我们一样会犯错误。我每天都感激上天，因为我相信上帝，感激你是我的父亲，感激你和妈妈带来了我和劳拉，感激我拥有的一切，以及我现在继续拥有的生活。
So I just want to thank you for the example and the nurturing and for coming here. There aren't words. Well, thank you. You know how much I love you. I think that these words are the biggest gift that I get and I think any father listening to that to his son or daughter saying that would also feel the same way or a mother, for them all.
所以我只是想感谢你树立的榜样和给予的关爱，也感谢你来到这里。这一切都难以用语言表达。谢谢你。你知道我多么爱你。我认为这些话语是我收到的最大礼物，我相信任何听到自己孩子这样说的父亲或母亲也会有同样的感受。
It is a very fulfilling feeling, you know, to have that notion that you feel that you owe so much to what you got. And also the fact that you've done incredibly well and the kind of person you are. Yeah. I wish you all the wisdom that you need in order to just go through life the way you know you're going. But I think that it's nice to also that we are sort of on the same wavelength and many things.
这是一种非常充实的感觉，你知道吗，就是有那种感觉，你觉得自己欠了很多，因为你所得到的一切。而且，你做得非常出色，这与你自身的品质有关。我希望你拥有足够的智慧，以你知道的方式走过人生。我觉得很荣幸我们在很多事情上有相似的想法。
In you, I see more of a reflection of what I always wanted to be as well. So that's easier in a way. Perhaps it's because fathers and sons have that. So we certainly relate. Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you. I love you. I love you too. You know that. Joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Bernardo Huberman. To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
在你身上，我看到了我一直想成为的样子，所以从某种程度上说，这让事情变得更容易。也许这是因为父子之间的特殊联系，所以我们彼此能够感同身受。是的。谢谢你。我爱你。我也爱你，你知道的。感谢你参与今天与Bernardo Huberman博士的讨论。想了解更多他的工作，请查看节目注释中的链接。
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast on both Spotify and Apple and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast.
如果您正在从这个播客中学习或享受其中的内容，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是一个绝佳的零成本支持我们的方式。此外，请在Spotify和Apple上关注这个播客，并且您可以在这两个平台上为我们留下最高五星的评价。请查看在节目开头和整个过程中提到的赞助商。支持这些赞助商是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.
如果你对播客、嘉宾或希望我在Huberman Lab播客中讨论的话题有任何问题或意见，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有的评论。对于还不知道的朋友，我有一本新书即将出版。这是我第一本书，书名是《Protocols: an operating manual for the human body》（《协议：人体操作手册》）。
This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.
这是一本我已经花费超过五年时间撰写的书，它基于我超过30年的研究和经验。书中涵盖了从睡眠、运动到与专注和动力相关的压力控制等各种方案。当然，我也为书中所包含的方案提供了科学依据。现在，这本书已经可以在protocolsbook.com网站上预售。在那里你可以找到各种销售商的链接，选择你最喜欢的一家。再次提醒，这本书名为《Protocols：人体操作手册》。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X formerly known as Twitter, threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都叫Huberman Lab。也就是说在Instagram、X（以前叫Twitter）、Threads、Facebook和LinkedIn上都是用这个名字。在这些平台上，我讨论科学和科学相关的工具，其中有些内容与Huberman Lab播客上的内容重叠，但很多内容是Huberman Lab播客上没有的。再次提醒，在所有社交媒体平台上，我的名字都是Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, our neural network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page PDFs. Those one to three page PDFs cover things like deliberate heat exposure, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol. We also have protocols for optimizing your sleep, dopamine and much more. Again, all available, completely zero cost. Simply go to Huberman Lab dot com.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络新闻通讯，我们的神经网络新闻通讯是免费的月刊，其中包括播客总结以及简短的一到三页PDF形式的协议。这些一到三页的PDF涵盖了诸如有意热暴露、有意冷暴露等主题。我们还有基础健身协议，以及优化睡眠、多巴胺等等的协议。再次提醒，所有内容都完全免费。只需访问Huberman Lab 网站即可。
Go to the menu tab, scroll down to newsletter and provide your email. We do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Bernardo Huberman. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
进入菜单选项卡，向下滚动找到新闻通讯，并提供您的电子邮件。我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。再次感谢您参与今天与Bernardo Huberman博士的讨论。最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。