Behind the product: Duolingo streaks | Jackson Shuttleworth (Group PM, Retention Team)
发布时间 2024-12-15 12:00:41 来源
Doolingo is a $14 billion company. It's hitting all time highs too. It just keeps going up. I think it doubled in value in the past six months. Streaks is the most impactful feature. We have right now over 9 million users with a year plus streak. If you look at the numbers, I think has been our biggest growth lover. But Doolingo really focuses on is, you know, how do we help users build habits around language learning? Getting users come back the next day is the biggest problem to solve. Let's get into the mother load of learnings from the journey of Streaks.
Doolingo是一家市值140亿美元的公司，并且股价屡创新高。最近六个月内，我觉得它的市值翻了一倍。连胜奖励（Streaks）是最具影响力的功能。目前，我们有超过900万用户连续使用超过一年。如果你查看数据，会发现这是我们增长的最大驱动力。但Doolingo真正关注的是如何帮助用户养成语言学习的习惯。让用户第二天继续回来学习是我们要解决的最大问题。让我们深入探讨一下从连胜奖励这段旅程中获得的丰硕经验。
Talk about the key lessons in sites and also wrong turns along the way. I'd say like test everything. We've run in the last four years over 600 experiments on the street. So every other day, we've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing. We used to say continue are like standard CTA's continue. And we changed that to commit to my goal. And it was like a massive win. There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just like how to motivate people, what motivates would be motivated.
谈谈我们在网站上学到的关键经验以及过程中走过的一些弯路。我想说的是，测试一切。过去四年里，我们在这方面进行了超过600次实验。所以我们几乎每隔一天就会为文案测试搭建出非常好的基础设施。我们以前常用的标准行动号召（CTA）是“继续”，后来我们将其改为“承诺我的目标”，这带来了巨大的成功。这些实验让我们学到了很多关于人类心理学的知识，比如如何激励人们，以及是什么使人们受到激励。
Say that you played a mobile game that you've done it for 3000 days in a row. I don't know. Maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for 3000 days. Today, my guest is Jackson Shetterwirth. Jackson is a group product manager at Doolingo, leading the retention team. This is a different kind of episode that I'm experimenting with, where we spent the entire conversation focused on the journey and lessons of a single feature. In this case, Doolingo streaks.
假设你连续3000天玩了一款手机游戏。我不知道，这种感觉可能和你连续3000天学习西班牙语有些不同。今天，我的嘉宾是Jackson Shetterwirth。他是Doolingo（多邻国）的一位产品经理，负责用户留存团队。这是一种全新的实验性节目，在整个对话中，我们专注于探讨一个特定功能的发展历程和经验。在这期节目中，我们讨论的是Doolingo的"连击"功能。
Doolingo is a $14 billion business. Just over the past six months, they doubled in value. They're hitting all time highs in usage and market cap. They're also one of the very few successful and also the single biggest consumer app business in the world. And as you'll hear from Jackson, the streaks feature is the single most impactful feature that most contributed to this growth and success. In other words, you could argue this one feature created billions of dollars of value, which to me means it is worth studying in depth.
Doolingo是一家价值140亿美元的公司。仅在过去六个月中，他们的市值就翻了一番。他们的使用率和市值达到了历史最高点。他们是全球少数成功的消费类应用公司之一，也是其中最大的公司之一。正如你将从Jackson那里了解到，"连续日"功能是推动他们增长和成功的最重要功能。换句话说，你可以认为正是这个功能创造了数十亿美元的价值，这让我觉得值得深入研究这个功能。
In our conversation, Jackson shares the history of the streaks feature, all the biggest wins and wrong turns they've taken along the way, what he and his team have learned about what works and doesn't work with a streaks mechanic, and also how they set up their teams to operate in a way that allows them to run over 600 experiments on this product and continue to find big wins. I hope to do more episodes like this on features and products that you'd love to hear more about.
在我们的对话中，杰克逊分享了有关连胜功能的发展历史，包括他们在过程中取得的最大成功和犯的错误。他还谈到了团队在连胜机制上学到的经验教训，以及他们如何组织团队，以便能够在这个产品上进行超过600次实验，并不断找到重大突破。我希望能制作更多这样的节目，介绍您感兴趣的功能和产品。
So leave a comment, either on YouTube or on Substack and tell me which product or feature you'd love to see me cover. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Jackson Shattleworth. Jackson, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thank you. Long time listener, first time caller. So I appreciate it.
请在 YouTube 或 Substack 上留下评论，告诉我您希望我介绍哪个产品或功能。如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用或 YouTube 上订阅和关注。这是避免错过未来集数的最佳方式，并且对播客的帮助非常大。接下来，我为大家介绍 Jackson Shattleworth。Jackson，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎参加这个播客。是的，谢谢你。我是长期听众，这是我第一次打电话参与，所以我非常感激。
So this is going to be a really interesting conversation. I've never done an episode like this before where we basically spend like an hour and hour and a half going into one feature of one product. But this is a very special feature. It's a very special product. Have you ever spent like an hour and hour and a half just talking about this one feature with anyone? Well, internally, when we onboard new folks to the team, we'll do I actually just did this with somebody that joined the team recently where we spent. And I was like, hey, let's spend an hour just talking about the streak. We got through an hour and I got through about 30% of what I wanted to share. There's just so much.We'll talk about this, but there's so much that we've learned over the years. But never anything externally like this. I think we've shared bits and pieces of learnings, but this will be like the the mother load of learnings, hopefully, how dueling goes built the street. We should title this the mother load of learnings of dealing with streaks.
所以这将是一次非常有趣的对话。我以前从未做过这样的节目，即花一个半小时的时间深入讨论一个产品的一个功能。但这是一个非常特殊的功能，是一个非常特殊的产品。你有没有和别人花一个半小时只讨论这个功能？在内部，当我们给新加入团队的人进行培训时，我们会这样做。最近我刚好和一个新加入团队的人这样做过。我们花了一个小时专门谈论这个功能。结果一个小时过去了，我只分享了大约30%的内容。我们这些年来学到了很多东西。虽然我们以前从未在外部这样全面分享过。我想我们曾分享过一些零散的经验，但这次将是学习的大集合，希望能展示出我们是如何打造这个功能的。我们或许可以把这次对话称为处理持续使用功能的经验大集合。
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Okay, so for people that don't know anything about what Duolingo streaks are, can you just first give a brief explanation of what is Duolingo streaks? What does this feature all about? Well, presumably people know Duolingo is a language learning app. The Duolingo streak tracks currently, anyway. How many days in a row you've done a lesson? So you come to Duolingo, you do a lesson. Your first lesson, you'll start a streak, and then every consecutive day that you come, use the app, you'll extend your streak. And I should actually put an asterisk around how many days in a row, because we also have built flexibility into the features.
好的，那么对于那些不了解Duolingo连胜是什么的人，你能不能先简要解释一下这个功能是什么？这个功能具体是关于什么的呢？嗯，大家可能知道Duolingo是一个语言学习应用。目前，Duolingo的连胜会记录你连续多少天完成了一节课。你进入Duolingo，完成一节课。你的第一次课将开始一个连胜，然后每连续一天使用这个应用，你的连胜就会延续。我其实应该在“连续多少天”这个说法上加个星号，因为我们这个功能中也加入了一些灵活性。
So we have these things called streak freezes. It's like insurance for your streak. So it's a pretty simple feature in theory. But over time, we've layered on challenges and goal setting and rewards and social features. A lot of our notifications are tied to the streak. So pretty simple feature to understand, but it's been a really rich feature for us to build on top of. Some people might be hearing this be like, who Duolingo streaks? What's the big deal? There's other people that are like, holy shit, I want to learn everything. I can possibly learn about Duolingo streaks. So many companies are trying to copy what you've learned from this.
我们有一种叫做连胜冻结的功能。可以理解为连胜的保险。这一概念本身很简单。但随着时间的推移，我们在其基础上增加了挑战、目标设定、奖励和社交功能。我们的许多通知都与连胜有关。所以这个功能很容易理解，但它是我们扩展和发展的一个重要基础。有些人可能会想，“这是什么，Duolingo 的连胜有什么大不了的？”而另一些人可能会想，“哇，我想了解Duolingo连胜的一切”。许多公司正在努力模仿你们从中学到的经验。
Give people a sense of the impact that this one feature has had on Duolingo's success in group. This is not just the subjective retention PM talking. I think this is our biggest feature with the exception of the lessons. And I think it's actually worth start that. Stricts are a great engagement hack. I'm kind of of the opinion that any team, any app out there can introduce a streak. And if you figure it out, it probably works to retain users. But at the core, you have to have an app that people want to use. And people really like using Duolingo. It's fun. It's delightful. You learn something. And so it allows us to layer an engagement mechanic on top of that.
让人们了解这个功能对Duolingo成功的影响。这不仅仅是保留率产品经理的主观看法。我认为除了课程之外，这是我们最大的功能。实际上，我觉得这值得特别开始介绍。坚持练习记录是一个很棒的参与策略。我认为任何团队、任何应用程序都可以引入这个功能。如果运用得当，可能会有效地留住用户。但最重要的是，你必须有一个人们想要使用的应用程序。而人们非常喜欢使用Duolingo，因为它有趣、令人愉悦，而且还能学到东西。因此，这让我们能够在此基础上增加一个参与机制。
Like the streak is really powerful. So it ships a disgusting amount of DAUs. Again, it is just, it is, it is our one of our golden geese. And again, what's cool is that like, you know, you look at notifications. Notifications for Duolingo is massive. I mean, you know, us sending better, you know, whether it's copy or timing. So many of our notifications work because they reference the streak, because users care about the streak. And so not only is it itself, us iterating on the streak, a huge driver of DAUs, but it's also something that enables other really high, you know, valuable features.
这段话的大意是：“练习连胜的效果非常强大，因此带来了大量的日活跃用户。可以说，它是我们的金鹅之一。让人觉得很酷的是，通知功能对多邻国来说非常庞大。不论我们发送的消息内容还是发送时间，很多通知之所以有效，是因为它们提到了连胜，而用户非常在乎这一点。因此，我们不断改进连胜功能本身，不仅是日活跃用户的巨大推动力，它还使得其他非常有价值的功能变得更加有用。”
I was looking up some stats before I came on. And it's pretty crazy. So we have right now over 9 million users with a year plus streak. So 9 million of our users have had used Duolingo every year, almost every day for, you know, well over a year, which is pretty, which is, I don't know, it's, I like to imagine things in terms of like, you know, okay, well, like if you put all these people in a city or, you know, in a place where it would be and like, ah, it's like a very large city. 9 million people. So for a year have been have a year long streak. That's incredible.
我在上来之前查了一些数据，真是难以置信。我们现在有超过900万用户保持了一年以上的连续学习记录。也就是说，这900多万用户几乎每天都在使用Duolingo，持续了一年多。我喜欢用一些具体的想象来理解这件事，比如说，如果把这些人放到一个城市里，那真是一个非常大的城市。900万人连续一年坚持学习，真是令人惊叹。
I was just looking at the, the stock of Duolingo. So Duolingo is a 14 billion dollar company at the time of recording this. It's hitting all time highs too. It's like, just keeps going up. I think it doubled in value in the past six months, something like that. And what I'm hearing from you is streaks is this other than just like the core learning feature, which is just like the product of Duolingo. This is the most impactful feature in terms of growth and in that retention specifically. I mean, if you look at the numbers, I think pretty objectively has been our biggest growth lover for, for driving DIA use and also say a lot of it's just related to how we think about growth at Duolingo. And a lot of what we try to do is organic growth, you know, we think about growth, you know, just as much as bringing new users onto the platform is not losing them. If you're just bringing people onto the platform and they churn, that's not going to be sustainable. And so as much as we can do to keep our users coming back and actually retaining as users, it's going to make it, it's going to give us a much easier base to continue growing DIA use off of. Perfect. Okay.
我刚刚在看Duolingo的股票。录制这段内容时，Duolingo是一家市值140亿美元的公司，股价正创历史新高，不断上涨。据我了解，除了核心的学习功能，"连续学习纪录"（streaks）是Duolingo增长和用户留存的最有影响力的功能之一。从数据来看，这的确是我们推动每日活跃用户数增长的最大驱动力之一。这与我们在Duolingo的增长策略密切相关。我们注重有机增长，既考虑吸引新用户，也重视留住现有用户。仅仅吸引新用户而流失他们是不可持续的。因此，我们尽可能地让用户回归并保持活跃，以便在此基础上更容易地推动每日活跃用户数的持续增长。完美的。
Talk about how this feature originally came to be. What was the original version of it? Was the original insight that led to be one? Yeah. So the oldest streaks are as old as Duolingo itself. We, when we launched Duolingo, we launched with the street. And I say we, I was like just graduating undergrad when Duolingo launched. So this is well before my time. But we launched with a streak feature. The, you know, the initially how the, how the feature worked was you'd come to Duolingo and you'd set a goal for yourself. And it was an XP based goal. So Duolingo, a little bit of like, you know, nomenclature, we have an experience point in space, system that drives a lot of our features in the app. And the way you'd set it is you'd say, you know, based on what your language learning goal was, you know, maybe you have a 10 experience point goal versus a 50 experience point goal. And so extending your streak would be, hey, can you hit 50 experience points if that's what you said your goal to be. And this worked well. I think this also speaks to like how Duolingo initially grew. You know, we were, Luis launched it with a TED talk. You know, we probably had a more tech forward user base, you know, initially. And so this whole idea of like an experience point space streak system made sense.
谈谈这个功能最初是如何诞生的。最初的版本是什么样的？是什么样的原始见解促成了这个功能的诞生？这个问题很好。最早的连续签到功能和Duolingo本身一样古老。在Duolingo上线时，我们就推出了这个功能。当时我还在读本科，Duolingo刚刚上线，所以这远在我加入之前便已经存在了。我们上线时便引入了连续签到功能。起初，这个功能的工作机制是你登录Duolingo并为自己设定一个目标，这是基于经验值（XP）的目标。简单介绍一下我们的术语系统，Duolingo有一个以经验值为基础的系统，支撑着应用中的许多功能。设定目标的方式是根据你的语言学习目标，比如你可能设定的是10点经验值的目标，或者是50点经验值的目标。要延续你的签到记录，你需要达成你所设定的经验值目标，比如达到50点经验值。这个机制运作良好，我认为这也反映了Duolingo的最初发展过程。Luis通过一次TED演讲发布了Duolingo，最初我们可能吸引了一些更具技术前瞻性用户群，因此这种以经验值为基础的连续签到系统是合情合理的。
But what that also meant is that you could have a user come and use the app, do multiple lessons a day. Maybe they just set too hard of a goal for themselves and then lose their streak, which I don't, you know, you don't need to be an expert in streaks to understand that's probably not good. You know, the nice thing with how we initially set it up though is it really did connect with what your goal was. So if you were serious, let's track how good you are at being a serious language learner. But I'd say one of the most impactful experiments we ran was about, this is actually as I was joining, we had or just after I joined, we had run this experiment was to move it from a XP based streak to just do one lesson a day and you'd extend your streak. And you know, the risk that you can sort of imagine is, well, then users kind of care less about it because it's not connected with their goal. And we saw none of that. I mean, this was huge driver of D.A.U.s just making it, making it easier to extend your streak. But I think really importantly, it's still meaningful, right? Like the unit of use, and you know, as you're thinking about building a streak, like I think it's really important to think about like what the unit of use of your app is. The unit of use for Doolingo is like doing a lesson. And so if what we care about is users coming back every day and doing a lesson, because it shows that they're actually engaging with the app, then it doesn't hurt us to make our streak focus on just do one unit versus multiple. And so that was like probably the big seed change experiment that we ran, you know, at the time was moving from an XP based streak to a one lesson streak. It's also simple. And I think that's like one of the things to think about with streaks. It's always easy as a PM to like over, you know, have a million goals or objectives for what you want your feature to be and potentially build a more complex feature. You know, one lesson streak, it's just easy for more users to understand.
这段文字可以翻译成中文如下，尽量保持简单易读：
但这也意味着用户可以每天使用这个应用，做多个课程。有时候他们可能给自己设定了太难的目标，结果打破了连胜纪录。显然，这不是什么好事。我们最初设计的好处是，它确实符合用户的目标。所以，如果你是认真学习语言的，我们会追踪你作为一个认真人如何表现。不过，我认为我们做过的最有影响力的实验之一是在我加入或刚加入后，我们进行了这个实验，就是把连胜机制从基于经验值(XP)的改为每天只需完成一节课就可以延续连胜。你可能会担心，这样会让用户不那么在意，因为这与他们的目标无关。但事实并非如此。这个改变极大地推动了日活跃用户(DAU)的增长，因为让延续连胜变得更容易非常有效。但更重要的是，这仍然很有意义。你在思考建立连胜机制时，很重要的一点是要考虑应用的使用单位。对于Duolingo来说，使用单位就是完成一个课程。所以如果我们关注的是用户每天回来并完成一节课，因为这表明他们确实在使用应用，那么让连胜关注于完成一个而非多个单位对我们没有坏处。这是我们当时进行的最大的一次实验，从基于XP的连胜转为一个课程的连胜。而且这也很简单。我认为这也是关于连胜机制需要考虑的一件事情。作为产品经理，总是容易设立很多目标或希望将功能设计得更复杂。但一个课程的连胜机制，更容易让更多的用户理解。
Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. And just for folks that aren't super familiar with XP, it's basically experience points and you get them from like doing things. It's like, yeah, you do stuff on Doolingo and then based on what you did and how well you did it, we give you experience points. This actually drives a number of our features in our app. So leaderboards is the big one. You know, we have a leaderboard system where you try over the course of the week, battle with 29 other people and you want to win. That's all driven by XP. So we do have other features in the app that really benefit from this XP system. The streak is just no longer one of them. Awesome.
是的，我本来也想这么说。对于那些不太熟悉XP的人来说，XP基本上就是经验值，你通过完成某些事情获得它。比如，你在多邻国上做任务，根据你做了什么以及表现如何，我们会给你经验值。这其实是我们应用程序中很多功能的核心。比如排行榜就是一个主要功能。我们有一个排行榜系统，你在一周内与其他29个人竞争并争取胜出。这一切都基于XP。此外，我们的应用中还有其他功能也能从这种XP系统中受益。不过，连续签到不再是其中之一。太棒了。
Okay. So I want to talk about the journey from that point to what it is today, but a quick tangent. I saw Louise tweet just this week, someone asked them, how do you decide whether to optimize for learning or engagement? And he's like, no question. Everything we do is focused on engagement because you won't learn anything if you're not coming back to the app. As an engagement PM, that was like the coolest thing he could have ever tried. It's, well, again, very much as a subjectively, I guess, as an engagement PM.
好的。我想聊一下从那时到今天的历程，但先插一句。我刚刚看到 Louise 发的推文，有人问他如何决定是要优化学习还是参与度。他的回答是毫无疑问，我们所做的一切都是专注于参与度，因为如果你不回到这个应用程序，你什么都学不到。作为一名专注于用户参与的产品经理，这对我来说真是太棒了。当然，这也是我作为一名注重参与度的产品经理的主观感受。
I mean, that's how I've, you know, I'm sure my learning, the learning folks at Doolingo cringe when they hear it. Like I see myself as a learning PM as much as an engagement PM because the easiest way not to learn on Doolingo is not to come back the next day. And so if we don't make the app retentive, you will have no opportunity to engage with our learning features. Now, I do think that there is a long tail of learning where if you start to dumb down, and honestly, this is something we wrestle with the streak as well, you start to dumb down the experience and your users aren't actually learning, they're not going to care. I mean, streaks were best when they're sitting on top of an app, you know, that users care about. But yeah, I mean, if you can't come, you know, if you don't come learn on Doolingo, you know, if you don't come back to Doolingo, then you're not learning.
我认为，这就是我的做事方式。我相信当Doolingo的学习团队听到这点时，他们会很不安。因为我不仅仅把自己看作是参与度产品经理，也同时是学习型产品经理。因为在Doolingo上不学习的最简单方法就是不在第二天回来。因此，如果我们不让应用吸引用户留存，你就没有机会使用我们的学习功能。不过，我确实认为学习有一个长尾效应。如果我们开始简化体验，用户就没有真正学到东西，他们就不会在乎。老实说，这也是我们在处理坚持不懈功能时遇到的问题。坚持不懈功能在用户真正关心的应用中效果最好。但如果你不来Doolingo学习，如果你不回来使用Doolingo，那么你就没有在学习。
So, you know, we, I mean, we track a lot of this with, you know, the work that we do, we make sure that as we're making changes to the streak, we're not hurting the learning experience, and we don't have a ton of interaction with it. So we're constantly thinking about this, but thank you, Luis, for saying that. It makes sense to me.
所以，你知道，我们通过我们的工作跟踪了很多这方面的内容。我们确保在对持续记录进行改动时，不会伤害学习体验，而且我们并不会与其进行大量互动。我们一直在考虑这些问题，所以感谢路易斯的指出。我明白你的意思。
Okay, so let's get into the mother load of learnings from the journey of streaks. So the first version went from XP to one lesson. Talk about the key lessons in sites and also wrong turns along the way to what we see today. Doolingo has very much, you know, has a strong like test it philosophy. You know, we're willing to test a lot of different, honestly, we'd much rather test it than like debate it for, you know, days and days. So we actually followed up this experiment with, and this is a little bit later with, hey, what if we make it even easier to extend your streak? And so we actually tested, hey, if you do one exercise, just one exercise in a lesson, we'll extend your streak. In a lot of, like, the insight was good. Like you look at the funnel, hey, there's a lot of users who are starting, but not finishing lessons or not extending your streak. The loss of version doesn't kick in. They don't, you know, come back.
好的，让我们深入探讨一下在持续学习过程中积累的经验。最初的版本是从经验值（XP）到一个完整的课程。我们会讨论这过程中重要的经验、见解以及曾走过的弯路，到最终形成今天的样子。Duolingo非常注重测试，我们宁愿多做测试，而不是争论个没完。所以，我们跟进了这个实验，稍微推后了一点，我们想，嘿，如果我们让用户更容易延长他们的学习连续天数会怎样呢？所以我们进行了测试，看看如果用户只在一堂课里做一个练习，就能延长他们的学习连续天数会有什么效果。在这一过程中，我们得到了一些洞察，比如，我们发现有很多用户开始了学习，却没有完成课程或者延长学习连续天数。因此，这样的版本无法激发他们的兴趣，他们就不会回来继续学习。
So this kind of followed that train of thought. What we realized when we ran this experiment is, you know, DAU's moved not one bit. And what we were doing by, and this, if we go back to like a unit of measure, you know, we had dumbed down the unit of, and nobody thinks about, I just want to come, you do one question on dual-income. Nobody thinks about that. So we had more like a less clear unit of measure that we were basing our streak around. And the users that we were capturing with our streak, you know, you come, you do one or two questions on dual-income, then you leave. We're like the least engaged users imaginable. And so, you know, I think that's something else to think about as you're building your streak, is like, what is the user that you're solving for? So not only what is the kind of habit that you're building for, but like what is the level of commitment?
这段话的大意是说，我们在进行这个实验时发现，每日活跃用户（DAU）几乎没有变化。这个实验让我们意识到，我们在使用一个不太明确的测量单位来建立用户的“连续签到”机制。用户只是来了做一两个关于双收入的问题就离开了，他们是我们能想象到的参与度最低的用户。所以，在设计签到机制时，我们需要考虑你是为哪种用户设计的，不仅是为了培养什么样的习惯，还有用户的参与和投入程度。
That was an example where we over-indexed on a type of user who we honestly just weren't going to keep. That was a very easy shutdown, shutdown decision. That's an awesome story. I just, just to comment on that real quick, just like you went, like let's just go to the extreme and make it just like streaks. Yeah, get everyone going streaks forever. And then I love that it turned out and it's not bringing users that you want, and it's dumbing down the experience. It makes me think of Farmville, where you have to go and like harvest your crops every whatever hour, and just like, like that lasts for a bit. And then eventually people are like, what the hell am I doing with my life? Exactly. No, we, I mean, and we test every, so we, I was looking at the numbers as well. We've run in the last four years, over 600 experiments on the streak. So every other day, effective 100, we're running an experiment. And they range from big like this, like changing how the mechanic works to like, let's swap a string with another string and see if that copy is better, you know, for, for users. So, so we're constantly testing on, on everything.
这是一个我们过度关注某一类用户的例子，而实际上这些用户我们是留不住的。这个决策非常容易做出，非常容易关闭。这是个很有趣的故事。我想快速评论一下，就像你极端地推行某种机制，比如不断地让用户保持“连胜记录”一样。是的，让每个人都不断地追求连胜。然后我喜欢的是，这个方法最终证明并没有吸引到你真正想要的用户，反而简化了用户体验。这让我想到了Farmville，在这个游戏里你需要定期去收获你的作物，开始一段时间可能会持续吸引人，但最终人们会质疑，自己到底在生活中追求什么。确实，我们测试所有内容。我看了数据，我们在过去四年里，针对连胜机制进行了600多次实验。平均每一百天，我们就进行一次实验。这些实验从大的改变，如调整机制运作的方式，到小的尝试，例如更换某个文本对用户更具吸引力。我们不断地对一切进行测试。
I do think that like, I'd be more careful running that experiment now. Like at some point your streak gets big enough that, again, I got 9 million users on the streak. I got to be really careful. Those are our best retaining users. You know, you got to be careful, but in the early days of the streak, I'd say like, test everything. I mean, see what, don't get, don't get super caught up and it has to be like this. Just test a bunch of stuff and see what speaks most to users. Because I think, you know, again, you will constantly be surprised by the, the insights that you get from whether you, we, we shut down about half of our experiments. So half of our big, of our experiments lose. We still learn a ton by virtue of, of running them. So super, super valuable. That's actually a good success rate. A lot of companies have only 20% of experiments be positive. What's your policy on is if it's neutral, do you ship it or do you kill it? Really depends if, if we're adding something and it's, and it's neutral, we tend to, to shut it down because it's just more cognitive load. It's something that we're going to have to start building around a new UI element that we have to figure out if it's in your system.
我现在认为，如果要进行那个实验，我会更加谨慎。当你的用户增长到一定规模时，比如说，我现在有900万用户在连续使用这个功能，我必须非常小心。这些用户是我们保留得最好的用户。你知道的，必须小心。但在这个功能初期，我会说，测试一切。也就是说，不要太过拘泥于固定的方式，尝试各种方法，看看用户最喜欢哪种。因为我觉得，你会不断从中获得出乎意料的洞察。我们大约有一半的实验被关闭，所以有一半的实验是失败的。但是通过进行这些实验，我们仍然学到了很多东西，非常有价值。其实这个成功率已经不错了。很多公司只有20%的实验是正向的。至于如果一个实验的结果不明显，你是选择推出还是放弃呢？这其实取决于情况。如果我们增加了某些东西而结果中性，我们倾向于关掉它，因为这会增加认知负担，我们还得开始围绕这个新的用户界面元素进行开发，以确定它在你的系统中。
I'd say when we do ship a neutral experiment is something that, that we have real conviction around, okay, yeah, maybe this was neutral, what it's going to give us a new platform to then build on top of. So that experience might be neutral, but now we can build these DAU positive experiments. It might general take there as though in that case, build that in as part of your V one so that, you know, you make sure that like at least your hypothesis around this roadmap, you know, has play, you know, should probably be the case. But in general, shutting down a neutral experiment so you don't introduce more complexity to the app is, is, is the way we tend to go. Make sense. All right. What else? What else have you learned along the journey?
我想说，当我们进行一个中立的实验时，我们确实非常有信心觉得这个实验可以给我们提供一个新平台，以便在其基础上进行构建。所以这个体验可能是中立的，但随后我们可以进行一些日活跃用户（DAU）增加的实验。我的看法是，在这种情况下，把这个作为你版本一的一部分进行构建，这样至少能确保你的路线图假设得到了实践，应该是这方面的要求。但是，总的来说，为了不让应用程序变得更复杂，我们一般会停止中立的实验。明白了。那么，还有什么其他收获吗？你在这个过程中学到了什么？
Well, I mean, maybe I can talk about a few different ways that we structure, you know, a few different themes that I think we, we lean on. So the first is focusing on the zero to seven day user experience. And I would say this is, if you look at the kind of, you know, whatever breakdown of experiments are, we run definitely more than average number of experiments on getting users to go from a zero to seven day streak. And a lot of this is because we've looked at the data for, you know, our retention curves. And what we found is that once you get to seven days, Lasha version kicks in and you retain. So going from a one to a two day streak, huge jump in retention, two to three day streak, slightly less, but still huge. And it's up until day seven. Once you hit day seven, it flattens out. And it's not to say that like, you know, if you're a, you have a 30 day streak, you're way more attentive than day seven, but not in the order of magnitude that it is from from day one through seven. So we do a ton of work to get users to that point where Lasha version kicks in and then they don't want to, they don't want to leave the app.
好吧，我是说，也许我可以谈谈我们结构化的一些方式，和我们依赖的一些不同主题。首先是关注用户从注册到第七天的体验。我想说的是，如果你看看我们进行实验的各方面细分，显然我们在帮助用户实现零到七天连续使用方面的实验数量高于平均水平。这很大程度上是因为我们查看了我们的用户保留数据，发现一旦用户连续使用达到七天，就会产生“锁定效应”，用户就会坚持下去。从第一天到第二天的连续使用，用户保留率有大幅提升，从第二天到第三天的连续使用，虽然提升稍弱，但依然显著，这种趋势一直持续到第七天。一旦达到七天，这种提升就趋于平稳。这不是说如果你有30天的连续使用，你就比七天的用户更有粘性，但从第一天到第七天的变化确实是显著的。因此，我们做了大量工作，使用户达到这个“锁定效应”生效的阶段，使得他们不想离开这个应用。
One of the fun ones that we did, and it's honestly as much about process as it is about the feature itself was we have a feature called street goal. And it is, again, so much of the stuff seems so obvious in retrospect. But, you know, it was really novel at the time. You know, we had this idea of like, hey, maybe we'll just goal users to hitting a certain street clang. As you can imagine, this is pretty powerful, you know, user psychology. And we started with the simplest version of this. And this is how Duolingo does a lot of our testing. You know, rather than design the big complex feature for V one, just do like the simplest encapsulation of what that feature can be. See if it has legs and then just add to it iteratively over time. This is partially how we get to, you know, 600 plus experiments on streaks. They're not all big ones, but we started and it was funny. We actually took a learning from our modernization team.
我们做过的一个有趣的项目，实质上它不仅仅是关于功能本身，同样重要的还有实现过程。我们有一个叫作“连胜目标”的功能。很多事情回头看似乎显而易见，但在当时确实是个创新。我们有一个想法，就是让用户达到一定的连续成功次数。你可以想象，这在用户心理学上非常有影响力。我们从这个功能的最简单版本开始，这也是Duolingo进行大量测试的方法。与其在第一个版本就设计一个复杂的大功能，不如先做出该功能的最简单表现形式，看看是否有效，然后随着时间的推移逐步添加。这也是我们为什么能进行600多个连续测试的部分原因。虽然不是每个测试都很大，但我们开始时发现这很有趣，我们实际上借鉴了我们的商业化团队的一些经验。
So one of the strings that they had, the pieces of copy that they had worked really, really well was, I think it was your like 5.6 times more likely to finish the course if you subscribe to plus. It's sort of, you know, now it's super our subscription. And it was a really good hook that if you, if you really cared, you'd sign up. And so we ran a similar, we had a similar thought where it's like, oh, let's just tell you how much more likely you are to finish the course if you get a 30 day streak. And so we started with that. And I think it was like, you're seven times more likely to finish the course if you have a 30 day streak. And just that message when you started your streak, I was telling you that was awesome. Huge win. You know, indicating an outcome and like Duolingo doesn't have, we don't, but we have a gem economy, but we don't actually have like, you know, it's just, it's all you learning, but being able to actually talk about it in terms of the outcomes that a user would think about. In this case, trying to finish the course was a huge win. So this is where we started and we're like, ah, goal setting. All right, we should go much harder on that. Found some.
他们用过的一条文案非常有效，我记得当时是这样的：“如果你订阅了Plus，完成课程的可能性将提高5.6倍。”这是个非常好的吸引点，传达的是如果你真的在意，就应该订阅。所以我们也有了类似的想法，比如告诉你如果连续学习30天，你完成课程的可能性会有多大提高。我们从这个开始，数据显示如果你坚持30天学习，完成课程的可能性会提高7倍。这个信息在你刚开始“连续学习时长”时传达出来，效果非常好。取得了巨大的成功。虽然像 Duolingo 这样的平台没有直接涉及结果导向的功能，比如宝石经济，但能够从用户关心的结果，比如完成课程的角度来谈论学习带来的效果，是一次巨大的进步。因此，我们意识到，在目标设定方面，我们应该更加努力，并取得了一些成果。
Found a thing. And now let's just beat that kind of it. So we followed that up with another experiment where we tested different lengths. So we test 14 days and 50 days and we found that they were all good, but they they appealed to different users. And so we started to realize, all right, well, we probably need to be more thoughtful about who we give, you know, these different options to. And and so then we followed that experiment up with, all right, let's start with 30 days and then we're going to let you opt out. You know, we'll say, no, I don't think I can hit it. And our thinking was, and then if you say, no, we'll hit you with an easier goal. Because we just wanted to get you to commit to a goal. And this was a fascinating one because it was a good win to give users that easier goal to try to capture, capture them before they said no. But it was almost just as big a win to add that opt out button.
找到了一种方案，然后我们决定改进它。于是我们进行了另一个实验，测试了不同的天数：14天和50天。我们发现结果都不错，但吸引的是不同的使用者。因此，我们意识到需要更加谨慎地为不同的人群提供选项。接着，我们尝试了新的方案：以30天为起点，但允许用户选择退订——如果他们觉得无法实现，我们会为他们提供一个更容易达成的目标。我们的想法是让用户先承诺一个目标。这项实验非常有趣，因为为用户提供更容易实现的目标，可以尽量留住他们，比他们直接拒绝要好得多。另外，设置一个选择退出的按钮也带来了显著的积极效果。
So we tested separately and I'm a huge fan of testing, like way too many arms for an experiment, just to like be able to isolate your hypotheses. But but we captured, you know, just what happens if we add an opt out button? And adding an opt out button, when you would think like as a PM, oh, I'm like, you know, now users might not engage with my feature. That's a bad thing. But it was a huge win to let them do that. And and the learning here was that this intentionality of saying, no, I want it previously, it was just a continue button. But now it's like, no, I want to hit 30 days and having that be an intentional decision for them. Yes or no, even though again, this had no impact, no, no, or no impact past this screen. Everything that I'm talking about now was, you know, just that screen that day and then was all thrown out. So that optionality was was was, you know, a huge insight.
因此，我们进行了单独测试，我非常热衷于各种实验测试，甚至可能设置了太多选项变量，以便更好地验证假设。我们观察到了这样的现象：如果我们增加一个选择退出的按钮，会发生什么？作为产品经理，你可能会担心，哦，用户可能因此不使用我的功能，这样不好。但其实，让用户可以选择退出反而是一个巨大的成功。我们学习到的经验是，这种明确的选择意图很重要。之前用户只能继续，现在他们可以有意识地决定是否要选择30天。即便这个选择在屏幕之外没有进一步的影响，但这种可选择性本身就是一个重要的发现。
And so because of that, we built a goal setting feature where you could choose between different goals, giving users that optionality was was likewise a huge win. I'll say one, one final learning on this. Again, you talk about like friction and good and bad friction. We thought once we built, you know, a goal picker screen where you could pick between different street lengths, we were like, oh, well, let's like recommend that users do a hard, you know, a harder goal thinking that, okay, well, harder goal is going to be better retention and we'll pre select the harder goal for them. And this based on all the learnings that I just shared with you, you probably imagine lost pretty significantly. We realized that like, yes, we could speed users through the screen more by virtue of picking a goal for them. But like that act of selecting, I think it's 30 days, I think it's 14 days was where we were getting so much of the engagement from this feature.
因此，我们开发了一个目标设定功能，用户可以在不同的目标中进行选择，这种选择的多样性也带来了巨大的成功。我想再分享一个最终的学习点。再次谈论摩擦力及其好坏。在开发了一个可以选择不同天数目标的界面之后，我们以为可以推荐用户选择一个更难的目标，以为选择更难的目标会带来更高的用户留存率，并为他们预设了较难的目标。但根据之前与您分享的经验，我们最终意识到这种做法弊大于利。我们发现虽然这样可以让用户更快地通过选择界面，但用户在选择目标的过程中，比如选择30天或14天，就产生了大量的功能互动。因此，这一选择本身就极大地提升了用户参与感。
There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just like how to motivate people what motivates would you motivate? It was like, you guys should write a book on human psychology and motivation. I feel very much like a amateur armchair psychologist with everything that at least as far as people who want to learn languages on their phone go. Right. Right. I really understand those folks. So one, one kind of theme I'm hearing here so far is you guys are basically just like mining for gold, just like looking for like a vein in some mine. And once you hit it, you're like, oh, this worked. You just go crazy on just testing all kinds of things to see how far you can take that one little thread. Yeah.
在这些实验中，你们学到了很多关于人类心理学的知识，比如如何激励人，以及究竟是什么在激励人们。就好像，你们应该写一本关于人类心理学和激励的书一样。我觉得自己就像个业余的沙发心理学家，尤其是当涉及到那些想要在手机上学习语言的人时。对，我真的很理解这些人。所以，到目前为止，我听到的一个主题是，你们基本上就像是在挖金矿，只是在寻找一个矿脉。一旦找到了，你们就会疯狂地测试各种东西，看看能把这个小线索推进多远。
And I think, you know, I shared that that the how this idea came partially from, you know, modernization, win that they had. I think there's a lot of, you know, because Duolingo runs, you know, I don't know what percentile we're in, but it's got to be a very high percentile of, you know, per capita experiments run for a company. You know, based on company size, we're just constantly learning so many things. And there's a really great cross sharing of monetization. Say, Hey, this thing worked for us. Is that something you can use? So I'd say it's rare that we go into something where it's just like, right. I was just, let's just try something. Typically we have some insight because of all of these experiments that we've run that, Hey, if we do this, I don't know, it's one here or it's worked here. It's driven this user engagement. If we, you know, sort of massage that and make it, you know, try in this, you know, scenario or like a different screen, you know, we come in at least with the strong hypothesis of this will work.
我认为，我之前分享过这个想法的来源，部分是因为他们在现代化方面取得的成功。我认为有很多这样的例子，因为Duolingo进行的实验数量非常多，可能是公司中人均实验数最高的之一。根据公司的规模，我们一直在不断学习很多东西。有一个非常好的货币化经验交流，比如说：“嘿，这个方法对我们有效，你可以用吗？”所以我会说，我们很少进入一个完全没有头绪的领域。通常，由于我们进行的各种实验，我们已经有一些见解，比如说，如果我们这样做，不知道是这里还是在那里，它已经提高了用户参与度。如果我们调整一下，在不同场景或界面上尝试，我们至少有一个强有力的假设，认为这将奏效。
A lot of times we do look and we're like, you know, a lot of the apps that we look at actually are games themselves. So it's like, all right, you're playing Royal match or, you know, there's the new Pokemon trading card game that I'm spending way too much time on. You know, you, you, you look at these games and see what they're doing. And it's really good fodder for what we can do. But a lot of times you're at least going with a strong hypothesis based on what you've seen work elsewhere. You got it. So just to double down on that point, it's not like just random experiments. It's here's a hypothesis. We were fairly confident or has a chance to be true. Let's try it. It's not just just try everything. And I think that like how strongly you feel about the hypothesis directly ties to how hard that experiment is like with copy, for instance, we, we've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing. And I'm of the opinion that companies should run as long as you have a user base to do it, like copy test constantly, like the amount of copy test that we've had that is just like that of one and you, I don't know, you just, you just try things and you figure out when is is definitely legion and if ship like massive whens from little copy changes.
很多时候，我们观察应用程序时会发现，其实很多应用本身就是游戏。比如说，你可能在玩《皇家比赛》或者是我花了太多时间玩的新的《宝可梦交易卡牌游戏》。你观察这些游戏，看看它们在做什么，这为我们提供了很好的启发。但是，大多数情况下，我们至少会基于其他地方成功的案例形成一个强有力的假设。你懂的。 我要强调这一点，我们不是在进行随机的实验，而是在这里有一个假设，我们对其有信心，或者认为它有可能成立，然后我们去尝试。并不是漫无目的地尝试所有事情。我认为，你对假设的信心程度直接关系到实验的难度。比如在文案测试方面，我们实际上为文案测试建立了非常好的基础设施。我认为，只要公司有用户基础，可以不断进行文案测试，因为我们进行的文案测试就像一次次的实验，你会发现，这些小的文案变化可能会带来巨大的成功。
Is there an example of that? Or just like the impact going back to that goal screen. We used to say continue our like standard CTA is continue. And we changed that to commit to my goal. And it was like a massive one, even just, you know, and again, it was like, okay, users tapping on that. What are we asking them to do commit to the goal? What is that going to lead them to do commit? Not, you know, churn. Just that little copy change that one time right there led to huge wins and copy changes are so cheap. Like it's just your translators, you know, for us, you know, we have a lot of users all over the world in the UI languages. So, but like just come up with a bunch of ideas, translate some strings. This is one where, you know, the feedback that you'll typically get from Louisa. So all of our changes at Duolingo go through product review that, you know, are reviewed by Louisa reviews every single change that, you know, we propose or every experiment that we run.
有没有这样的例子？就像我们之前讨论过的目标页面的影响一样。我们过去的标准行动号召（CTA）是“继续”，我们把它改成了“承诺实现我的目标”。这看似一个微小的改变，但对结果产生了巨大的影响。用户点击这个按钮，实际上我们是在要求他们对自己的目标做出承诺，而不是让他们流失。仅仅是这样的文字修改就带来了巨大的成功，而且修改文字的成本非常低。这主要只是依赖于我们的翻译人员。比如对于我们来说，因为我们的用户遍布全球，并且使用不同的界面语言，所以只需想出一些想法，翻译一些短语即可。在Duolingo，Louisa会审查我们所有的更改，因此所有提议或者运行的实验都会经过产品评审。
To believe with copy, he's just like, I don't know, tested like there's nothing better than be told by Luis. I don't think this is going to win, but sure, if you want to. And a lot of times, you know, to his credit, he's right. And a lot of times, you know, our intuition was right, but it's just so cheap to do it. I think when the lift is smaller, it's great to have hypothesis, but, you know, you don't need to beat it up too much.
相信文案的人，他就像是，我不知道，就像是经过测试一样，没有什么比被Luis告诉的更好了。我不认为这会成功，但如果你想试试，那也无妨。很多时候，说实话，他的判断是对的。而且很多时候，我们的直觉也是对的，但进行测试的成本非常低。我认为当提高不大的时候，有个假设是很棒的，但不需要过于纠结。
So on this threat, I didn't realize Luis reviews everything you're planning to change. And this may be the answer to the question I was going to ask, which is one of the criticisms of running a product and company this way of just experimenting constantly with all these micro improvements and changes as it can lead to something. Like a monstrosity of a product and experience that isn't consistent and cohesive. And just like that often happens is the solution to that having the founder basically review all the changes. Is there anything else you all do to avoid it moving and becoming farm bill or whatever is a good example?
关于这个问题，我之前不知道Luis会审核你计划进行的所有更改。这可能回答了我本来要问的问题之一，那就是运行一个产品和公司时，一个常见的批评是通过不断实验各种微小的改进和变更，可能导致产品和体验变得不一致、不协调。这种情况的解决方案之一就是让创始人审核所有的更改。除此之外，你们还有采取其他什么措施来避免产品演变成类似Farmville这样的问题吗？
Yeah, our product review structure where we've got our head of product design, one of the lead, you know, the product management leaders and then Luis and PR. And because they see everything, you know, they have a really high product bar. And so that helps. I think over time, we just as PMs have to look at, OK, where is our feature headed? And so, you know, we do this with the streak, at least on a quarterly basis to look at, OK, well, what have we learned? You know, how is our streak developed and how do we imagine this going in your future?
是的，我们的产品评审架构包括产品设计负责人、其中一位产品管理领导，还有Luis和公关团队。他们对所有事物都有全面了解，因此他们对产品的要求非常高。这非常有帮助。我认为随着时间的推移，作为产品经理，我们必须关注我们的功能发展方向。因此，我们至少每季度会进行一次回顾，看看我们学到了什么，我们的进展如何，以及我们对未来的想象。
I don't think, you know, it's easy to do, you know, and end in some sort of awful local maxima. If you're not constantly looking at your roadmap and thinking, you don't have a clear strategy, you know, for me, it's like. If you have a clear strategy for where your feature is going, hopefully all of those A.B. tests are not just done, you know, to get some cheap gain. They're done with a long term goal in mind. I do think though, and we do this every now and then with the streak, eventually you just hit a local maxima and you say, like you talked about lunch and neutral experiments. This is a great example. It's like, all right, cool. Now we need to throw a bunch of this stuff out based on all the learnings. Can we reset this real estate? Can we reset this UI, reset this feature in such a way that is just as good as what we have now, but is way more plain or simple that we can, again, start to layer on those are those are really hard experiments to get when to win, obviously, because they are so optimized, but they're really important to do.
我觉得，这不是一件很容易的事，尤其是如果你不时刻关注自己的路线图和策略，就可能陷入一个糟糕的局部极值。对我来说，如果你对项目的未来方向有明确的战略，那么所有的A/B测试就不只是为了获得短期利益，而是为了实现长期目标。但我确实认为，有时我们做一件事做到一定程度后，就如你提到的午餐和中立实验一样，当你达到某个局部极大值时，就需要重新审视并根据所有的经验教训，把一些旧的东西扔掉。然后我们可以重新设置这个房地产、用户界面或功能，使其既能保持现有的好效果，又变得更简单明了，这样我们就可以重新开始逐步添加更多的东西。这些实验在某种程度上很难获得胜利，因为它们已经优化得很好，但它们显得特别重要。
Otherwise, yeah, you just end up with a kitchen sink of a feature. One other tidbit I just want to mention, something that the advantage you all have that other companies don't have is people want to learn like they want to learn the language. And so getting pushed to come back to an app for something that they want to do is not an advantage a lot of products have. So anything you want to add there of just like, this is why doing go might be a little different from what you're working on. I mean, that is definitely a benefit if I had an app that this is actually why I think a lot of mobile games do streaks differently because, you know, to say that you played a mobile game and somebody who plays a lot of mobile games, you know, that you've done it for 3000 days in a row. Like, I don't know, maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for 1000 days in a row.
否则，你就会得到一个杂乱无章的功能。我想提到另一点，你们拥有的一个优势是其他公司没有的，就是人们有学习的意愿，比如他们想学语言。因此，推动他们因为某种喜欢的事情而回到应用，这是很多产品所没有的优势。所以，如果要补充一点关于为什么这个项目可能和你正在做的有所不同的话，我觉得这是个很大的好处。这也是为什么我认为很多手机游戏在处理连续登录记录时的做法不同，因为连续玩3000天的手机游戏和连续学习1000天的西班牙语是很不一样的体验。
I think the comparison set is much larger, though, than a lot of companies give them credit for themselves credit for. And I think that there's a lot of ways that companies think about their very few companies I imagine out there in the world saying, oh, we don't do some degree of good for our users. Even if it's like a game, it's like, I don't know, you're like making your given somebody a moment away from the craziness of their lives. And so I do think, though, that is contingent on companies who are going to figure out if a streak works for them to figure out how can you frame the streak in such a way that a user can do it. A user does feel good about it. And it's easier for, you know, a Duolingo, but, you know, I think there's creative ways to phrase this for users.
我认为，比较的范围其实比很多公司自己意识到的要大得多。我认为，在世界上很少有公司会认为自己对用户没有任何益处。即使是像游戏这样的产品，也可能是在给人在忙乱的生活中一个片刻放松的机会。因此，我的确认为，这取决于企业是否可以找到适合他们的方式，把“连续使用”呈现得让用户感到愉悦。对于像Duolingo这样的产品来说，这相对简单，但我相信也有创造性的方式可以让用户感受到这种益处。
You know, the other thing, maybe just on that, that I'll say is the streak works really well for Duolingo because with language learning, it's really hard to see day to day progress and becoming more fluent, like become an influency is not even the right word. It's like becoming better at Spanish or whatever. It is a year's long process for someone to get better at a language. I mean, Duolingo makes it easier, but you still got to put in thousands of hours if you're going to reach, you know, see one or see two fluency. And that is really hard to track on a day to day. And so the streak works really well for us because we might not be able to tell you, hey, you now know 0.0, you know, 1% more Spanish, but we can show you, hey, like, you've gotten your streak a little bit higher. And so I think this works particularly well when you're at apps that is doing something that's going to be sensed or felt over a longer term to help contextualize that progress in a way that makes more sense, or at least feels more tangible to a user.
你知道，我想说的是，连胜记录在多邻国的效果非常好。因为在学习语言的过程中，很难看到每天的进步，流利程度也不是一蹴而就的。比如学西班牙语，需要数年的时间才能真正提高水平。虽然多邻国让学习变得更简单，但如果你想达到C1或C2的流利程度，仍需要投入数千小时的学习。这种进步很难在每天的基础上进行跟踪。所以，连胜记录对我们来说非常有效，因为我们可能无法告诉你：“嘿，你的西班牙语提高了0.01%。”但我们可以告诉你：“嘿，你的连胜记录又增加了。”这在长期使用后体会或感知到效果的应用中尤其有效，它帮助用户更好地理解和感受自己的学习进度，使其看起来更有意义或至少对用户而言更切实可感。
Great. That was a great context empowering to a lot of companies that aren't necessarily doing language learning. OK, so I took us on a long tangent away from lessons and experiments you ran along the journey of iterating on the streak. So a few things you've shared so far is just like it started being like started with this XP idea and then went to like a lesson. Then you iterated on ways to make it simpler, maybe harder. You had it's three goals where you commit to like I'm going to hit a certain goal of streak. What else? What else have you found that has worked didn't work lessons learned?
好的。这是一个很棒的背景，为许多并非专注于语言学习的公司提供了启发。我插了一段长篇跑题的话题，离开了你们在设计连续学习过程中进行的课程和实验。目前为止你分享了一些内容，比如它最初从XP（经验值）这个想法开始，然后转向课程。接着，你们在简化或者增加难度方面进行了多次迭代。你们提出了三个目标，承诺要达到一定的连续学习目标。还有什么呢？你们发现了哪些有效或无效的做法，从中学到了哪些经验教训？
You know, again, sticking with this one to seven days streak, you know, it is the idea of a streak, particularly probably to this audience is like, obviously, like, oh, it's a streak. It, you know, goes. It just counts how many days we've realized over time that a lot of users do not understand how a streak works. And it can be as big as, you know, as small as, well, I don't understand how streak freezes work or I don't like my mom the other day was talking to you about. She's like, oh, my, I like didn't use Duolingo and I come back and my streak still there. So like there's like certain elements of the feature that, you know, we can do better at explaining. But even like what a streak is, it's, it's tracking how many days that I've used the app. Yeah.
你知道的，说到连续使用一到七天这个概念，很多人自然会想到“连续天数”，就好像“哦，这就是一个连续使用的记录”。我们逐渐意识到，很多用户其实不知道这个概念是如何运作的。有时候是因为不清楚某些功能，例如连续使用天数的保护机制，或者像我妈前几天跟你提到的，她说“哦，我没有使用多邻国，但再回来时我的连续天数居然还在”。所以这项功能的某些方面，其实我们可以做得更好，比如更好地解释什么是“连续天数”，它实际上就是记录我用了这个应用多少天。
The more that we can make the feature easily comprehensible to users, the more retentive it is. And it, and, and we've run a number of experiments to this, you know, as simple. You talked about, you asked about early, easy copy changes that we made. So this is my first win experiment when I joined Duolingo was when you start a streak, we use, we have a little copy at the bottom of the screen that just, I don't know, it's kind of like flavor copy. We use it to celebrate you or give you context. And I ran some tests that just like tried to and eight words, explain what a streak was. That was it. And it was a massive win because it really required like it really dumb down here is exactly how the streak worked. And it really helped users just understand what they needed to do. And I think this is something that's like, you kind of constantly got to remind yourself, particularly if you work in tech and you're building cool tech features, but you're user base is not a bunch of tech workers to like think about, all right, who is my audience? And for us, it's not just like tech workers, I people in America, people all over the world of all ages of all cultures. And so making sure that your, your, your feature is even something as simple as the streak is understandable. It's critical.
为了让功能更易于用户理解，我们做的越多，用户的留存率就越高。对此，我们进行了许多实验，比如简单的文字修改。加入Duolingo后，我进行的第一个成功的实验是在用户开始连续登录时，我们在屏幕底部使用了一小段文字，类似于庆祝或提供背景信息的文字。我进行了实验，用八个字解释了连续登录是什么。这带来了巨大的成功，因为这简单明了地解释了连续登录的工作原理，帮助用户理解他们需要做什么。我认为这是一个需要不断提醒自己的事情，特别是在技术行业工作并开发酷炫的技术功能时。我们的用户群体并不是一群技术工作者，而是来自世界各地、各个年龄段和文化背景的人。因此，确保你的功能，甚至像连续登录这样简单的功能，都可以被理解是至关重要的。
What was the actual copy? Do you remember? It was still, I think it's still in the app. Like started a day to extend your streak, but miss a day and it resets something like that. Makes sense to be very clear. Yeah. It words. I love that. Okay. And then when you say massive wind, by the way, just to give people a reference point, what do you, what does that look like? What is a massive win in this scale? Well, and it's, and it's funny. I mean, this was, and this was four years ago, but I think it was like in the order of magnitude of over 10,000 DAUs for us. And actually maybe this small bit of context. So Duolingo really cares about the metric cur current user retention rate. And actually our first ever Duolingo post with Lenny was the newsletter that our former head of product wrote, Jorge. The still the single most popular newsletter post of all time in my newsletter across 300. I would highly recommend that if you are interested in this, give it a read.
这段英文的大意为：
你还记得最初的文案是什么吗？我想它还在应用里。好像是说“开始一天来延长你的连续天数，但如果错过一天，就会重置”这样的字眼。是，很清楚明白的说明，我很喜欢这种风格。当你提到“大胜”时，顺便为大家提供一个参考点，那是什么样的“大胜”？嗯，那很有趣。其实这是四年前的事，但我觉得当时我们日活跃用户数（DAU）大约超过了一万。而且，稍微补充一点背景，Duolingo非常关注用户留存率这个指标。实际上，我们与Lenny合作的第一篇Duolingo文章是由我们前产品负责人Jorge撰写的。这篇文章至今仍是我新闻通讯中最受欢迎的文章之一，超过300篇中排第一。如果你对此有兴趣，我强烈建议你读读看。
这样翻译后，更易于阅读和理解。
Um, you know, to summarize, basically what we found is that. If we wanted to drive DAUs and Duolingo cares, you know, our growth North Star is DAUs, the metrics that is most. Effective, you know, where a percentage change that metric is most effective at driving DAUs is current user retention rate. And this is just users who are not new or resurrected, getting them to come back tomorrow. And so most of the work that our teams do, our retention based teams do is focused on cur. And so the retention team that I lead focused on cur just so happens to streak is the best feature at driving cur.
嗯，总结一下，我们发现，若想提升日活跃用户数（DAUs），而Duolingo也十分关注这点，我们的增长目标就是DAUs。那么，对DAUs增长最有效的指标就是现有用户的留存率。这指的是那些不算新用户或复兴用户的群体，让他们第二天继续使用。因此，我们团队的工作、特别是用户留存团队的工作，主要集中在提升现有用户留存率。由我领导的留存团队主要专注于这一点，而我们的经验表明，用户连续使用的“连续登录天数”功能对此最为有效。
And so this was this experiment was the biggest cur when that we had had. I was like a top three cur when anyway for us, just this little coffee, right? And as always, they like to have coffee a thousand different ways. Sometimes it's not the big, beautiful feature, you know, that's going to drive the huge gains, huge gain. Sometimes it's just something simple as a few words. I love this. Uh, okay. So when you said 10,000 days, I think that references you guys measure incremental impact and absolute numbers of new daily users you're going to drive with attributed to that experiment. So yeah, and we do both. I mean, we'll also look at like a lot of times I'll look at, you know, for retention day one versus day seven versus day 14. A lot of what I'm looking for is for us to have a better day 14, excuse me, better day 14 impact than better day day one impact. Because it means that users are retaining better over time. This is particularly for users that would see a future multiple times. I just like absolute Dau numbers because as long as you're controlling for, you know, different biases, like a recency bias or a novelty bias, it's a really easy way to just have an absolute comparison. You know, you start to look at percentage changes and then it's influenced by who your treatment, you know, how many users saw the experiment. But at least, you know, an absolute number is easier in my mind to start comparing again.
这次实验是我们经历过的最大成功之一。我觉得这至少能排进我们前三的成功尝试，不就是一杯简单的咖啡嘛。就像平时一样，人们喜欢用各种不同的方式来喝咖啡。有时候，真正推动巨大收益的不一定是那些大而美的功能，有时只是简单的几句话。我真的很喜欢这个。
哦，对了，当你提到“一万天”时，我想你是在说你们评估实验的增量影响和由此带来的新增日活跃用户的绝对数量。是的，我们的确做了这两方面的评估。我常常会去看第1天、第7天和第14天的用户留存率。我更希望看到第14天的用户留存率有更好的表现，因为这意味着用户在长时间内的留存更好。这对那些多次看到某个功能的用户尤其重要。我喜欢用绝对的日活跃用户数量，因为只要你掌控了不同偏见，比如近期偏见或新奇偏见，这种指标就很容易进行绝对比较。在进行百分比变化的分析时，实验中不同用户群的规模会产生影响，但使用绝对数量更直观，更易于进行比较。
They're a doubt, you know, they're pitfalls with it, but we find that that's pretty useful way. That lesson comes up a lot on this podcast and that approach to experiment. So yeah, you're a good, you're in good company, quick tangent. If there's not an answer to this, no problem. Coming back to the idea of just like experimenting like crazy and not creating a product that nobody wants to use anymore long term. Is there an example of an experiment that was positive that you all decided, no, we don't actually think this is what we want in the product, they ended up not shipping.
他们有些疑虑，你知道的，可能会有一些陷阱，但我们发现这是一种非常有用的方法。这个教训在我们这个播客里经常出现，也是我们进行实验的方法。所以，是的，你在一个不错的团队，稍微扯远了点。如果没有答案也没关系。回到狂热地进行实验而不是长期创造没人愿意使用的产品的这个想法。有没有一个例子是你们做了一个很成功的实验，但最终决定不把它加入产品中，它最终没有推出？
You know, retention doesn't only work on the streak, although, you know, you would you would think we'd most of our work is the streak. We've touched a lot of different surfaces over the years and there was one experiment that we launched that, you know, we talked about XP earlier. In the lesson, the only UI elements are a progress bar at the top and then how many hearts you have, right? So we keep it really simple and this very much speaks to the design, you know, philosophy of Duolingo, which is simpler. The UI is better and we decided, hey, let's add XP in there. And so let's show your XP ticking up as you're going, you know, through a lesson and that's going to make the user feel good. It's going to give, you know, show you what you've earned. You're going to be less likely to quit. All of these good reasons to do it.
你知道，用户留存不仅仅依赖于连续使用的记录，虽然很多人会认为我们的大部分工作都集中在记录上。多年来，我们涉足了许多不同的领域，其中有一个实验，让我们加入了经验值（XP）的功能。在课程中，唯一的用户界面元素是顶部的进度条和你的心数，对吧？我们保持界面非常简单，这正好体现了多邻国的设计理念：界面越简单越好。于是我们决定，把经验值加入其中。在你进行课程学习的过程中，显示你的经验值不断增加，这会让用户感觉更好，展示你所获得的成就，这样用户就不太可能放弃。所有这些原因都使得这个功能值得去做。
And then you finish the lesson and then we'll show you've collected all this XP and it and it won. I mean, the hypothesis was a good one. But we realized and I remember having this conversation with Louise is like, cool, this is our most important screen in the app. It is our lesson is where users learn and the focus here is on learning. And now you've added this other thing up there to distract, you know, that could be distracting for users. And I think the question, you know, we talked about roadmaps and strategy here, the question that he had for me and I didn't have a good answer for at the time was like, so what else are you going to do with us? Like, what's your iteration ideas? Where is this going to go? Is this going to make the, you know, lesson experience more gamified or in what we realized is that like, honestly, it was kind of just you know, an easy engagement when idea, but we had touched our most, you know, sacred space in the app to do that.
然后你完成课程后，我们会展示你收集了所有的经验值。我们的假设是好的，但我们意识到，我记得我和路易丝谈过这个问题：这样的额外功能可能会分散用户的注意力。因为这是我们应用程序中最重要的界面，是用户学习的地方，核心就是学习。现在添加了这个新东西，可能让用户分心。我记得我们也讨论过计划和策略，他当时问我，“对此你还有什么打算？你的迭代想法是什么？这会让课程体验变得更像游戏吗？”我们意识到，这样做其实是一种简单的吸引用户互动的方式，但这种改变触及了我们应用中最核心的部分。
And so that was a case where it's like, yeah, it was a nice win, but we had added that UI element and, you know, at least at the time, it was less clear what we would do with it. And we realized that like long term, it was just going to get in the way and we'd rather for simplicity sake, pause that, you know, shut it down and keep the lesson, you know, to be a little bit of learning. And sanctuary was now it's funny. Nowadays, I think we actually have enough XP based mechanics and fun things that we can do that like, I think actually a lot of our, you know, the beliefs about the lesson experience have changed such that something like that could work. But at the time, you know, didn't feel good to keep that around. That is an awesome example.
这就是一个例子，当时我们觉得这是个不错的成果。但是我们增加了那个用户界面(UI)元素，至少在那个时候，我们对如何应用它还不太明确。随后我们意识到，从长远来看，它反而会成为障碍。为了保持简洁，我们决定暂停、关闭这个功能，并从中学习一点经验。有趣的是，现在我们其实有了足够的基于经验值(XP)的机制和有趣的项目可以使用，很多关于学习体验的观念也因此发生了变化，使得类似的功能可能会奏效。但在当时，保留它并没有让人感到满意。这是一个很好的例子。
Hopefully we have time to talk about how the team operates, where my mind goes as like, oh, but you have all these PMs and teams that want to show impact and the performance reviews and all that stuff. And you're shipping something that we did away. So I want to chat about that later. But let's keep going on things you've learned and things that didn't work on the journey. The other thing that I'll call out with the streak is, you know, it's like we have the image of the streak is this flame, right? And, you know, we have the streak flame and it's very much corduroyconography. It's important to acknowledge that that's a metaphor for a retention mechanic, like the idea of keeping a flame lit.
希望我们有时间讨论一下团队的运作方式，我的想法是，比如说，你们有这么多产品经理和团队想要展示他们的影响力和绩效评估等等。而你们发布的东西恰好是我们剔除掉的内容。所以我想稍后聊聊这个话题。但现在让我们继续探讨你所学到的东西以及在这个过程中未奏效的部分。关于“连续纪录”（streak），我想提到的是，我们的“连续纪录”形象是火焰，对吧？我们有这个“连续纪录”的火焰，它非常像是一种灯芯绒图像。重要的是要承认，这其实是一个留住用户的机制的比喻，就像是保持火焰燃烧的概念。
And again, if you think we've established the flame as, you know, for a lot of users as sort of their understanding of a streak, which is great. But there's a lot of people, you know, in different cultural context and different, you know, stages of life where the idea of like keeping a flame lit to show your commitment to something makes less sense. We did some UXR in India many years ago, and this was something that just like did not resonate at all there, which was, which was a really interesting learning. And that's something it's like, again, depending upon what your user base is, like, the more global UXR you can do to understand how users are actually understanding and experience your feature the better, because you just, again, encounter insights like this.
再说一次，如果你认为我们已经把火焰图标确立为很多用户对"连续保持"的理解，那很好。但是在不同的文化背景和不同的人生阶段中，有些人觉得通过保持火焰燃烧来展示对某事的承诺就没那么有意义。多年前我们在印度进行了一些用户体验研究，发现这种象征在那里完全不引起共鸣，这是一个非常有趣的发现。根据你的用户群体，进行更多的全球用户体验研究以了解用户如何理解和体验你的功能会更好，因为这样可以获得很多意想不到的见解。
And so even our screen design, you know, we used to have a flame. It was just it was mostly this flame that would like light up every day. But again, it was like an indication of a metaphor for a mechanic. And when we redesigned it, we did this. Kurt, our one of our animators did this awesome odometer animation where it's like your number would tick every day. It looked kind of like look good. But from a product perspective, what was cool is we actually focused the design on the screen to show your number going up. And then it would say, you know, like seven day streak, eight day streak.
我们甚至对屏幕设计也做了调整。以前，我们用的是一个火焰图标，每天都会点亮，作为机械过程的一个隐喻。但在重新设计时，我们让我们的动画师Kurt打造了一个非常棒的里程表动画，每天数字会跳动，视觉效果很好。而从产品角度来看，更令人兴奋的是，我们将设计重点放在了显示你数字增长的屏幕上，它会显示类似“连续7天”、“连续8天”的提示。
And I think that as you're thinking about designing around a streak, don't get too bought up, you know, or caught up into like what is this, you know, like the beautiful story that you're trying to tell at the expense of it being a really comprehensible feature. And so as you're thinking about product design, making that product design a clear distillation of this is what we're actually tracking, you know, form should follow a function here. You know, was a was a learning for us. And you'll see that now in a lot of places where we're showing streak, we're really leading with the number, not necessarily the flame. That's all. That's a theme that I'm hearing again. And again, is clarity.
我认为，当你在设计一个连续使用的功能时，不要过于纠结于如何创造一个美丽的故事，而忽略了使这个功能易于理解的必要性。在产品设计中，应确保这个设计清晰地表达出我们实际上在追踪的内容。形随功能是我们的一次学习经验。现在，当我们展示连续使用的功能时，会更加注重用数字表示，而不是强调图标（如火焰）。我反复听到的一个主题就是清晰性。
Don't obsess with making into thought like clever and don't ever think it just like clarity has a big impact. Clarity also doesn't have to come at the expense of delight. And this is something where, you know, you hit a milestone and duo gets the, you know, it becomes, we call him a Phoenix duo and he becomes awesome and you know, lights on fire. And I think there are things that you can do to still make the experience really exciting and delightful and celebratory. And I would, I would not lose that, but just don't do it at the expense.
不要过于执着于把思想变得聪明，也不要仅仅因为清晰度很重要就一直在想这件事。清晰也不必以牺牲乐趣为代价。这就好比，当你达到了一个里程碑，你知道，那个瞬间，我们称他为凤凰双胞胎，他变得非常棒，就像火焰般燃烧起来。我认为有很多方法可以让体验既激动人心又充满乐趣和庆祝的感觉。我不会舍弃这些，只是不要以其他为代价。
And I think it's also about figuring out for what, you know, you can get away with doing more of this for users who are deeper into their streak experience than users who are starting where it's like your goal for the one day street users just to make sure do they understand how this feature works. I mean, even something again, just like another random experiment at the bottom of the street screen with a calendar. And over the years, it just looks more and more calendar like, and that is simply because we find that the more we make it look like a calendar days on top, you know, little circles, the check, like more, we make it look like calendar, the more that people realize, hey, this is a day, a daily mechanic.
我认为这也涉及到了解对于不同用户的策略。对于那些已经在积累连胜经验的用户，你可以更深入地引导他们，而对于刚开始的用户，你的目标是确保他们理解这个功能是如何运作的。就像在连胜屏幕底部添加一个带有日历的小实验，多年来，它越来越像一个日历，因为我们发现，越是让它看起来像日历，上面有日期，小圆圈可以勾选，人们就越能够意识到这是一个每日机制。
And so think about the screen holistically, but every single thing that you're doing on the screen, how can you use it to communicate? What is the point of this feature? How does it work? This episode is brought to you by Koda. I use Koda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows. From collecting questions for guests to storing all my research to managing my newsletter content calendar, Koda is my go-to app and has been for years. Koda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets and apps to help me get more done.
所以，要整体考虑屏幕上的内容，但对于你在屏幕上做的每一件事，要思考如何用它来进行沟通。这个功能的意义是什么？它是如何运作的？本集节目由 Coda 赞助。我每天使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和新闻通讯工作流程。从收集给嘉宾的问题，到储存所有研究资料，再到管理我的新闻通讯内容日历，Coda 是我多年来的首选应用。Coda 结合了文档、电子表格和应用程序的优点，帮助我完成更多工作。
And Koda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations and identify risk areas. You can also access hundreds of pressure tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision making frameworks. See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma and Qualtrics run on Koda. Take advantage of this special, limited time offer just for startups.
Koda 可帮助您的团队保持一致，并通过在一个地方管理计划周期来更快速地发布产品。您可以设定和衡量跨团队和利益相关者的目标与关键成果 (OKR)，绘制依赖关系，创建进度可视化，并识别风险区域。此外，您还可以获取数百个经过验证的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策框架的一切。亲自体验一下为什么像 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 这样的公司都在使用 Koda。现在，抓住这个专门为初创公司提供的限时特别优惠。
Head over to Koda.io slash Lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan. That's Koda.io slash Lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan. Koda.io slash Lenny. I imagine one of the biggest wins was just giving people flexibility along the journey, like streak freezes on all these things. Is that a big vein of opportunity discovered? It is. It is. Actually, I'm going to show you the one of the thoughtful guests that anybody has ever given to me. This is our Duolingo serenity or streak serenity prayer, my co-ed.
前往Koda.io斜杠Lenny，注册即可获得六个月的团队计划免费使用。就是Koda.io斜杠Lenny，去注册，然后获取六个月的免费团队计划。Koda.io斜杠Lenny。我想，其中一个最大的优势就是在这个过程中给予人们灵活性，比如“连胜冻结”等功能。这是一个被发现的重要机会吗？是的，确实是。其实，我要给你看看我收到过的最体贴的礼物之一。这是我们Duolingo的宁静或连胜宁静祷文，由我的合作者分享。
At Koda. It's like it's like it's for me. It's amazing. And so it says, Luis, grant me the serenity to accept the flexibility I need, the courage to reach perfection when I can and the wisdom to celebrate regardless. And that actually is like kind of our strategy with the streak. So the show and tell, by the way, that was great. Yeah, I will.
在Koda。这感觉就像是为我量身打造的。太棒了。有句话是这样说的：路易斯，赐予我宁静，去接受我需要的灵活性；赐予我勇气，在可能的情况下追求完美；赐予我智慧，无论结果如何都能欢庆。这实际上有点像我们在连续记录中采用的策略。顺便说一下，那次展示真的很棒。是的，我会的。
Well, I guess for podcast listeners, we'll have to get an image somewhere. This idea of like flexibility versus perfection and then regardless celebration is core to how we think about the streak. Because I think for the streak for us, it's very much a bend not break. If you're going to miss a day, I'd rather you come back having missed that day to an intact streak. But if you don't have to miss a day, I'd much rather you don't. I'd much rather you come back and use the app every day. And so that thing on flexibility, though, that's almost certainly been the biggest, you know, from a canic perspective, the biggest DAU driver. You know, one of the earliest experiments we ran was going from you still only be able to have one streak freeze. And then we let you have either two or three.
好吧，我想对于播客听众来说，我们得找个地方放张图片。这个关于灵活性和完美之间的想法是我们如何看待“连续记录”的核心。因为我认为，对于我们来说，这种连续记录更像是"弯而不折"。如果你要错过一天，我希望你能在错过那天后重回并保持完整的记录。但是如果你不必错过一天，我更希望你每天都使用这个应用。因此，这种灵活性几乎可以说是我们每日活跃用户增长的最大驱动力。我们早期做的一项实验是从只能拥有一次“连续记录冻结”到让你拥有两三次。
So we tested two different arms. It was a none again, another huge DAU win. This actually is funny. It was something that this is again kind of a call back to that growth model post from from Jorge. It actually was really bad for Kerr because we were basically saying, hey, you can take a day off. You know, that's OK, but it was really good for this is going to be like alphabet soup. I war an active weekly active user retention return rate. So basically users who had taken a day off, we were getting them to come back more at higher rates. And so it made up for our losses and curve.
我们测试了两个不同的方案。结果再次令人惊讶，每日活跃用户（DAU）有了很大的提升。这件事其实挺有趣的，这又让人想起了Jorge关于增长模型的帖子。对Kerr来说，这方案其实非常不利，因为我们基本上是在告诉用户：“嘿，你可以休息一天，这没关系。” 但这对于“字母汤”（译者注：指一大串缩写）来说却非常有利。我指的是每周活跃用户的留存率和回流率。基本上，那些休息过一天的用户，我们让他们以更高的比例回来了。因此，这弥补了我们在Kerr方面的损失。
But effectively what this meant is that, you know, why two streak freezes work better than one was, I don't know, sometimes people just need a lot more flexibility than one day. But one of the again, the really interesting inside of this experiment was that three streak freezes was actually no better than two streak freezes. And there were two competing things here. And I think this is important if you're going to build a streak, you know, to figure out what your flexibility mechanic is. We are getting more users to return after longer times away to an inact, you know, to an intact streak.
有效地说，这意味着为什么两个连续的中断比一个更有效，我不知道，有时人们就是需要比一天更多的灵活性。但这次实验中一个非常有趣的发现是，三个连续的中断实际上并不比两个更好。这里有两个相互竞争的因素，我认为这很重要，如果你打算建立一个连续记录，你需要弄清楚你的灵活管理机制是什么。我们正在让更多用户在暂停较长时间后，仍然愿意继续保持他们原有的连续记录。
But if you start taking three days off from any habit, it's just going to be less likely that you return even four days later. And so we had these competing things where users might more users might be returning to a streak. A lot of users were also just not coming back. We were training them to, you know, take more time off. So that flexibility, what's the right amount of, I mean, we've again, this is another area we've run. Hundreds of experiments on what is the right number of flexibility? What is the right amount of flexibility? And we, we are constantly surprised here. We we don't, I still don't have the answer for at every point in your street journey.
如果你在任何习惯上连续休息三天，那么就更不可能在四天后再继续。因此，我们在这方面遇到了一个对立的情况：有的用户可能会继续保持习惯，而很多用户则根本没有回来，我们似乎是在“训练”他们更多地休息。所以关于灵活性的问题，到底多少才是合适的呢？我们在这方面做了成百上千次的实验，但即使如此，我们仍然常常感到惊讶。在习惯坚持的每个阶段，我们仍然没有找到明确的答案。
How much flexibility you need. One thing that I can say with certainty though is give more flexibility when a user is starting their streak. Again, one of our biggest street freeze experiment wins, I feel like I'm constantly saying this, one of our biggest wins, but they all were really, really big.
您需要多少灵活性。不过，有一件事我可以肯定地说，那就是在用户开始他们的连续使用时，应该给予更多的灵活性。另外，在我们的一个重大全面解锁实验中，我们取得了显著的成果。我觉得我总是在说这句话：我们的这些成果都非常、非常地重要。
One of our biggest street freeze wins was when you start a new streak, we give you two street freezes. And again, it's so funny to think back. It's like, how are we not doing this to begin with? But at the time, the street freeze was kind of an overly gamified mechanic. You had to buy them with gems. That's our in app currency, you know, because we wanted the whole idea of, you know, this to feel like you, like it was really, you know, something you earned that, you know, there was a little bit of pain to getting that streak freeze.
我们在“连胜保护”功能上的一个重大成功是，当你开始一个新的连胜时，我们会给你两个连胜保护。回想起来真的很有趣，就像，怎么一开始就没想到这样做？但在当时，连胜保护有点过分游戏化了。你需要用宝石购买它们，那是我们的应用内货币，因为我们希望整个想法是让你觉得这确实是你赚得的，有点费力才能获得的奖励。
And so we tested though, what if we just give users when they start off their streak to streak, streak freezes and holy smokes to that win. And it's sort of obvious now, you know, in retrospect, but if you have a one or a two or a three day streak, it's really easy just to let it die and reason. You start, you know, again, you need to get to seven days that what we've seen in the data for it to really lock in.
所以我们进行了测试，如果我们在用户开始连续签到时，给他们提供“连续签到保护”的功能会怎么样呢？结果令人惊讶，这非常有效。现在回过头来看，这其实是显而易见的。因为当你只有一两天或三天连续签到时，很容易就放弃了，反正可以重新开始。但我们发现，要真正巩固这种习惯，你需要连续签到达到七天。
And so giving users more flexibility so it's harder to lose their streak initially and then conversely, and this is what we keep learning. Eventually, once people get on long streaks, you kind of don't want to give them as much flexibility, you know, because there's a lot of times where, yeah, users don't add, I'm like this, I've got like a 400 day streak. Note that that is a lot less time than I've been at Duolingo. I have lost and restarted streaks a lot of times at my time at Duolingo. But you start getting on long streaks and you really care about this feature. You really care about your streak.
为了增加用户的灵活性，我们希望在一开始尽量降低他们失去连续使用记录的难度。不过，反过来说，我们不断学习到，一旦用户建立了长时间的连续记录，就不想给他们太多的自由度。很多时候，用户没有添加新的学习内容，比如我有一个400天的连续记录，但我在 Duolingo 的使用时间比这要长得多，因为我曾多次失去并重新开始记录。但是，当你开始形成较长的连续记录时，你会非常在意这个功能，你会非常关心你的连续记录。
And most people, as long as you're not like backpacking through, I don't know, you know, the backcountry of Utah, you know, you'll, you'll be in a place where you can get service. And so figuring out where is the, you know, who is the user that actually could use Duolingo and not conditioning. And then the reason why, you know, I think that you can, you know, make a difference between them to start taking days off that they didn't otherwise need to do is important to figure out sort of where that line is for your future.
大多数人，只要你不是在犹他州的偏远地区徒步旅行，你会待在能够收到信号的地方。因此，找出那些真正需要使用Duolingo的用户，而不是依赖恶劣条件下使用的用户非常重要。而我认为，找出并理解这之间的区别，从而开始休息那些原本不需要休息的日子，对于规划未来来说是很重要的。这有助于明确未来努力的方向。
It was fascinating. You can also buy a streak, right? Like with money, that's a feature. Yeah, you can. It's funny. This is also something that you buy. Yeah, you can buy a streak. Or free. Sorry. Not a street. Yes. You can buy a streak freeze. And the way it works is you can buy gems and then you can use those gems to buy a streak. And this is something we wrestle with. We're actively working on experiment right now that's having a small hit revenue, but it's a really nice one for retention.
这很有趣。你知道吗，你还可以买连续天数（streak），对吗？用钱也可以，这是一个功能。是的，你可以。这很有趣。这也是你可以买到的东西。是的，你可以购买一个连续天数保持器。不好意思，不是街道。是的，你可以买一个连续天数冻结器。运行方式是你可以购买宝石，然后用宝石去购买连续天数。这是我们正在努力解决的一个问题。目前我们正在进行的一个实验虽然对收入有一点小影响，但对于用户保留来说效果非常好。
And I think it's actually worth thinking about from day one as you're building a streak. Do you see this more as a modernization feature? Or do you see this more as a retention feature? What's the role of modernization in this? What's the role of retention? And I think for us, it started out much more organically. And so we have a lot of like modernization hooks that, again, as the retention PM, I would love to get rid of. But again, it's sort of part of how the streak works right now.
我认为从第一天开始就思考这个问题是很有必要的：当你在建立连续记录时，你是把这看作一种现代化的功能，还是一种用户留存的功能？现代化在其中扮演了什么角色？用户留存在其中又有什么作用？对我们来说，这一切最初是非常自然地开始的。因此，我们在系统中有很多与现代化相关的设计，而作为负责用户留存的产品经理，我其实很想去掉这些设计。但这些设计现在已经成为连续记录的一部分了。
And so we always have this tension of, hey, if we start to make it harder to buy streak freezes, then fewer people buy them, buy gems to buy them. And so there's this more convoluted series of impacts that happen. I love that people wanting to buy streak freezes, like the ultimate sign of how much streaks matter. Yeah, it's streak. Streak freezes.
因此，我们总是面临这样的矛盾：如果我们让购买连胜保护变得更难，那么购买它们的人就会变少，也就会有更少的人购买宝石来购买它们。这会带来一系列更复杂的影响。我喜欢大家想要购买连胜保护的原因，因为这充分说明了连胜有多重要。对，就是连胜，连胜保护。
The other big one that we've recently demonetized or introduced a free option for is getting back a loss streak. So used to lose the streak, we had a feature in the day, you know, back in the day called Streak Repair. We'd give you your streak back. You had to pay gems. But we found out worked way better was a feature called Earnback. And this is basically where you would have to do a certain number of lessons as long as you came back within a window soon after losing your streak. Do a few lessons and we just give you your streak back. And that was such a retention winner. And again, what we thought about was it feels like you've earned it so much more when you've done like you deserve to have your streak back.
我们最近取消了收费或推出免费选项的另一个重要功能是恢复连胜。过去，如果你失去了连胜记录，我们有一个叫做“连胜修复”的功能，可以让你付费用宝石恢复连胜。但我们发现，一个叫做“重新赚回”的功能效果更好。这个功能基本上是，当你在失去连胜后的一段时间内回来的话，完成一定数量的课程，就可以免费恢复连胜。这种方法大大提高了用户的留存率。我们认为这样做让用户感觉自己真正赢得了连胜，觉得自己应该得到连胜的恢复。
We haven't cheapened the streak because you've done something. And in this sense, this idea of cheapening the streak is something like from a philosophical philosophy of the street from a philosophical level. We wrestle with all the time of cool. We're giving out more streak freezes. At what point do we cross the line and users start to realize their streak means nothing? Now, everything that we've seen users are totally cool with using streak freezes and still thinking about the streak is this meaningful thing. But my co lead Antonio who made that awesome cross stitch for me, she is sort of the keeper for us of the sanctity of the streak. And a lot of times is we and I think this is a is just really important to have as you're thinking about building your streak. You can almost always get engagement wins up to a certain point by just cheapening the streak, making it easier to extend. Letting users have more flexibility. But you kind of got to hold the line at some point. It's not clear where that line is. And once you like you talk about one way doors or two eight doors, there's a point where you go too far and it's a one way door. And all of a sudden those users, those nine million users on one year streaks don't care about their streak anymore. And that is, I don't know, again, retention PM perspective, that'd be an extinction level event for us.
我们并没有因为你做了什么而贬低连胜的价值。从某种哲学层面上来说，这种贬低连胜价值的想法经常让我们思考。我们一直在考虑一个重要的问题，当我们给予太多的连胜保护时，会不会超过某个界限，让用户觉得连胜不再有意义？目前来看，用户对使用连胜保护感到很满意，仍然认为连胜具有重要意义。但我的合作伙伴安东尼娅，她就像是我们连胜神圣性的守护者。很多时候，当我们在考虑如何构建连胜时，这一点非常重要——你可以在某个阶段通过让连胜更容易延续来获得更多的用户参与，并给予用户更多的灵活性。但是，你需要在某个时候坚持原则。问题在于我们不清楚这个界限在哪里。如果你走得太远，就像一扇单向门，突然之间，那些拥有一年连胜的九百万用户开始不在乎他们的连胜了。从用户留存率的角度来看，这对我们来说将是一个灭绝级别的事件。
I don't I don't want all of these users to stop caring about their streak. And so to have somebody who is invested in the sanctity of the streak and for us, it's Antonio and Luis. He's very good about this is really important, just so you make sure you don't go too far. That's an awesome insight. So to protect and personal notifications, I think are another example. This in general for companies like how much is too much? Because everyone's just like, let's just send another push. It's fine. Just one more. And so your solution to that is a person is like the keeper and the gate, almost the gatekeeper plus the founder of how far is too far. That it's good if you can if you can have that. I think push notifications are also easier because, you know, there's a lot of things you can do around. All right, we'll set a budget cap for how many notifications will sound. You know, you can you can create a policy. Yeah, policies. But I think with a lot of things, it's it's hard, at least for the streak. It's harder to create policies for in the same way. A lot of it has to be done based on feel. And so you kind of just got to use your best judgment of times. Sweet. OK, any other maybe like one or two more lessons from this journey of what streaks has become today. I mean, I can you mentioned notifications. I've mentioned this a few times. What it's funny, you tend to think of exactly as we say, you just always send another notification. It's going to be some win. And at some point, you know, it'll it'll be a bad experience, but it's tough to see that. There's actually a notification that we so we send two notifications relating to your course streak each day.
我不希望所有用户都不再关心他们的连续记录。所以我们需要有人维护连续记录的神圣性，对我们来说就是Antonio和Luis。他们对此很擅长，这点非常重要，以确保我们不会走得太远。这是一个很棒的见解。因此，保护和个性化通知也是一个例子。对于公司来说，关键在于如何把握度，不能过多。因为大家总是想多发一个推送，只是再多一个而已。你的解决方案是由一个人担任守护者，几乎是把关人兼创始人，这样就能够判断什么时候太过分。如果有这样的人这很不错。我认为推送通知相对简单，因为你可以做很多事情。比如，我们可以设置一个预算上限，限制通知的数量，制定政策等。但对于连续记录来说，就很难以同样的方式制定政策。很多时候需要依赖感觉和判断。因此，你需要在不同的时候运用最佳判断。好的，还有没有其他的经验教训可以分享？我提到了通知，确实令我发笑的是，我们总觉得多发一个通知应该没问题，总会有好处。但有时候，这可能会带来不好的体验。这很难判断。实际上，我们每天都会发送两个与课程连续记录相关的通知。
The first is a practice reminder. We send it. This is actually an interesting insight. 23 and a half hours after you practice the day before. Whoa, that is a half. OK. So basically if you practice at noon today, we'll send to you in 11 30 AM tomorrow and we have done it because it's like, assuming they were free in that time the day before, maybe they'll be free the same time. And we actually moved. We used to let users set this practice reminder time and, you know, are thinking was cool. You're going to say 7 PM. That's when I really want to set my streak each day. And then you know what? I said, this is somebody with two kids. Life gets in the way. Life always gets in the way. And when you think you're going to practice will change, your life will change, whatever. And what we realize is the best indicator of when you should practice was when did you practice the day before we get almost certainly get more detailed. We have tried a bunch of ways to have much more complex logic and what always wins is 23 and a half hours. So it's a revealed behavior versus. Yeah, exactly. Um, so, so again, we send this practice reminder 23 and a half hours later.
第一个是练习提醒。我们发送这个提醒。这其实是一个有趣的观点。它是在你前一天练习后的23个半小时触发的。哇，这正好是半个小时。基本上，如果你今天中午练习，我们会在明天上午11点半发送提醒。我们这样做是因为假设你前一天那个时间是有空的，那么也许你明天同样的时间也会有空。我们确实做过一些改变。我们以前是让用户自己设定练习提醒时间，比如他们可能每天设定晚上7点，因为他们觉得那是自己想要保持练习习惯的时间。但后来我们意识到，生活往往会打乱这些计划。作为有两个孩子的人，我深有体会。你以为能练习的时间可能会改变，生活会发生变化等等。我们发现，最好的练习时间指示是你前一天什么时候练习过。我们曾尝试过很多更复杂的逻辑，但最终效果最好的是23个半小时的间隔。因此，这是一种显现出来的行为模式。所以，我们就是在23个半小时后发送这个练习提醒。
The other thing that we'll do though is we'll send it what we call a streak saver. And this is at 10 o'clock at night. If you have not extended your streak, we'll send you a message saying, Hey, you know, like it's, it's your last chance. This is, this is it. If you don't extend your streak and you would think that like, that's kind of spammy. That's, that's kind of annoying to get a notification from an app at 10 PM. But what we found is because people care about their streak. Their streak is this good thing that they attach positive emotions that they don't really want to lose that notification, reminding them, Hey, come back and like people see this by and large as a positive notification and on a negative notification. Obviously, it serves our purpose as well of getting users to come back and not lose their streaks. But again, I think if you can think about your notification strategy related to what is the feature that it's tied to? How do users perceive that you can almost certainly get a, not get away with more, but you know, you could be thoughtful about notification. You could load in wind, decent notifications.
我们还会做的一件事情就是发送我们称之为“连胜保护”的提醒。这个提醒会在晚上10点发送。如果你没有延续你的连胜，我们会给你发一条消息，说：“嘿，你知道吗？这是你最后的机会。如果你不延续你的连胜……”你可能会觉得晚上10点收到应用的通知有点像垃圾信息，有些烦人。但我们发现，由于人们非常在意他们的连胜，这种连胜是一件让他们产生积极情感的好事情，他们并不想失去。因此，这个提醒对他们来说主要被看作是一个正面而不是负面的提醒。当然，这也有助于我们的目的，让用户回来，不至于失去他们的连胜。但我认为，如果你考虑一下你的通知策略，看看它与哪个功能相关，用户如何看待它，你几乎可以不用太多花招，而是用心思考通知的内容。这样你就能发送一些不错的通知。
And again, for us, this like late night message that's also highly impactful, super good, you know, is actually something that could be perceived as spammy, but a lot of our users really do. I could somebody who it's often late at night to come and I work here and I'm like, Oh, forgot to do my, you know, I was thinking about doing all day. You know, here it is. 11 15. And I saw it done a, that message is really powerful. Yeah. It has saved me many times. I totally know that message. And I love that it's like a late night message from an app. Very rarely do you actually are happy about that.
这段英文可以翻译为中文如下：
对于我们来说，这种像深夜发来的消息虽然很有影响力、非常好，却可能被理解为垃圾信息。但实际上，我们的很多用户却很喜欢。我就是其中一个，经常半夜工作到一半，才忽然想到，哦，我整天都在想着要做的事还没做。然后在晚上11点15分的时候收到这样一条信息，感觉特别有用。 这样的消息帮过我很多次。我完全理解这样的感受，我很喜欢这个应用在深夜发来的信息，而这种情况下能让人高兴的情况并不多见。
And I love that this actually is a good example. We're like, it's really, it's really funny. All of the stories that you hear about people extending their streak, you know, if you look around a Duolingo party, you know, where it's like 10 11, 30, 11, 45, all the Duolingo employees that are like doing their lesson at the last minute. You always see these like pictures of people in the club doing or like at a concert doing Duolingo and yeah, because it's like. Otherwise that you're going to use a streak freezer. God forbid people lose your streak. And so funny. OK, anything else? And if there's like more than one more, definitely share, but any other really interesting lesson, the wrong turns or insights.
我很喜欢这个例子，它真的很有趣。你会听到很多关于人们为了延续他们的连续学习记录而做出的有趣故事。在多邻国的聚会上，比如晚上10点、11点、11点30分、11点45分，你会看到许多员工在最后一分钟赶紧完成他们的课程。你总能看到人们在俱乐部或演唱会上用多邻国学习的照片，因为没人想用“连续学习冻结器”，天哪，要是他们失去连续学习记录就不好了，实在是太有趣了。还有其他什么吗？如果还有更多，务必分享，但是有没有其他很有趣的课程、错误经历或见解？
You know, I talked about streak freezes and we've done a lot with streak freeze, but I think if you're going to make flexibility a thing, it's probably also useful thinking about how do you celebrate perfection. And so we have a feature that we have. It is the simplest thing in the world. It's called perfect streak. And it's just if you don't use a streak freeze for a few days, we make your streak look gold and we make your little progress bar on the calendar. Just look a little bit nicer. There's no reward for doing it. You don't get anything other than this nice little indication and it is awesome. It is it is it is a simple feature. It is ultra not complex and it is really powerful, not only for getting users to, you know, as a bit of a reward, they be, hey, you know, get to seven days, you know, without using a street. You know, your streak becomes perfect, but it's also a really nice indication of users who aren't using streak freezes.
你知道，我之前谈到过连胜冻结，我们在这个方面做了很多工作。但我认为，如果你想让灵活性成为一件事，思考如何庆祝完美也很有用。我们有一个非常简单的功能，叫做完美连胜。这只是指如果你连续几天不使用连胜冻结，我们会让你的连胜显示为金色，并让你日历上的进度条看起来好一些。这样做没有奖励，也不会得到其他东西，只是这个很不错的小提示，它真的很棒。这是一个非常简单的功能，非常不复杂，但却很有效。不仅让用户感觉到有一点奖励，比如坚持七天不用连胜冻结后，连胜变得完美。同时，它也是对于那些不使用连胜冻结的用户的一种很好的标识。
Here is the thing that if you, you know, if you don't use a streak freeze, which again, candidly, I would love for you never to use a streak freeze. If you don't use a streak freeze, your streak will stay, you know, perfect. It's funny. We actually just, you know, we're constantly, you know, responding to bug reports about the streak, you know, it is. I swear to God, we we have that we have the best infrastructure around this feature because it is so important. We had an employee who lost her. Like a four month perfect streak and, you know, it was a big deal for her because she, you know, because she like did her a lesson and she was crossing international date line and there was like a bunch of stuff going on that was like, it was just kind of weird in our back end. But like people start to care about perfection as much as they do their streak and, you know, for that person, it was it was a big deal and they lost their perfect streak. And so, you know, this is just an example of, like, if you're going to, if you're going to go after flexibility, which is good, finding a way to pull users back into perfection is a really important counterweight to have.
事情是这样的，如果你不使用连击保护（坦率地说，我希望你永远不要使用连击保护），那么你的连击就会保持完美。很有趣的是，我们总是不断地处理关于连击的错误报告。我发誓，我们对这个功能有最好的基础设施，因为它实在太重要了。我们有一名员工，她失去了自己的连击—一个维持了四个月的完美连击，对她来说影响很大，因为她完成了一节课，当时正在跨越国际日期变更线，还有其他一些奇怪的后台问题。但人们开始像在乎连击一样在乎完美。对她来说，这是一个不小的事情，她失去了她的完美连击。因此，这只是一个例子，如果你追求灵活性（这很好），找到一种方法把用户重新吸引到完美状态是一个很重要的平衡手段。
What I'm imagining is you guys need like an Amazon style chat bot that just gives you the streak back. It's just like, okay, here you go. We have very much, so we have if people lose their streak, you know, there's ways to get in contact with us, but we've actually thought about that where it's like, okay, we should just like build a self service feature. And if you're, if we think that your excuse is good enough, whatever, we'll just, yeah, yeah. Because again, it's for us to ship it back. I'm much rather than you beyond, you know, be honest streak than, you know, have lost it particularly if it's, you know, but it also can't feel that easy.
我想象的是你们可能需要一个类似亚马逊的聊天机器人，能够直接把你们的连续记录还给你们。就像，“好吧，给你。” 我们非常理解这点，所以如果人们失去了他们的连续记录，是有办法联系我们的。不过我们确实考虑过这个问题，觉得我们应该建立一个自助服务功能。如果我们认为你的理由够好，那么我们就会恢复连续记录。因为对我们来说，将连续记录还给你，比你失去它要好，特别是在某些情况下。但这也不能看起来太容易。
I love this. I also love this point about just the power of the animation and user experience having impact. That's really interesting is that something you find often just like make like celebrating and making it feel really amazing without like copy or, you know, or like any feature. It's just like, holy, you're awesome. This is another thing where it's like when users care about the feature using not only animation, haptics, sound effects using it's funny. We don't have sound effects on the streak.
我很喜欢这个。我也很喜欢这一点：动画和用户体验的影响力真的很大。这很有趣，你是否经常发现这样的情况：光是通过庆祝和营造一种非常棒的感觉，而不依赖于文字或任何功能，就能让人感到惊讶。这就是另一个例子，用户关注某个功能时，不仅可以使用动画，还可以使用触觉反馈和音效。真有趣，我们的连胜表现上居然没有使用音效。
I, this is probably something we'll look at and then not too distant future, but like haptics or like something we have done a lot of testing on the phone vibrating. Yeah, exactly. You know, like they're being a really cool haptic pattern as you extend your streak. All of this stuff wins. And it's cool because I think it wins. There's a few reasons. One is it just makes you feel good, right? You know, you get some cool moment in your streak and, and we celebrate you and we celebrate you in this visual way and your phone's buzzing. It just like feels awesome.
这可能是我们不久的将来会考虑的东西，比如触觉反馈。我们已经对手机的振动进行了大量测试。对，这正是我要说的。当你延续你的记录时，会有一个非常酷的触觉模式出现。这一切都很成功。而且我觉得它成功的原因有几个。其中之一是它确实让你感到开心，对吧？当你在记录中达到一个很棒的时刻时，我们会以这个视觉方式为你庆祝，而你的手机也在震动。这种感觉真的很棒。
The other thing it does is it like causes you to pause on that screen. And I think there's this desire as you think through a lot of, you know, as, as PMs think through like, oh, how can I get users to do this funnel as painlessly as possible? And I talked about good and virtually. There's a lot of times where I don't, I want you to stop. When you just stop and like land on the screen, you got to be careful not to do this for too many screens, right? But like, but the one big ones, sometimes I just want you to pause there and enjoy the moment. Um, because if I can get you to enjoy the moment more, you're going to care more about your streak and you're going to be coming back tomorrow. And so animations that are cool and that cause you to like really soak it in haptics, you know, that feel good. All of that comes together to make you really focus on that moment. Um, all of that just gets users more connected to their streak. So animation in the right times works well.
另一件事情是，它会让用户停留在那个屏幕上。我认为，很多产品经理在思考如何让用户尽可能顺畅地通过流程时，会有这样的愿望。我之前谈到了好的和可视化的设计。有很多时候，我希望用户停下来。当你停下来并真正停留在一个屏幕上时，要注意不要对太多屏幕这样做。但在某些重要的时刻，我只是希望你能在那里暂停一下，享受那个瞬间。因为如果我能让你更享受这个瞬间，你就会更加在意你所坚持的记录，并且你会明天再回来。因此，那些酷炫的动画以及让人感觉良好的触觉反馈，这些都能让你更加专注于那个瞬间。所有这些综合起来，会让用户更加连接他们的使用记录。因此，在恰当的时机使用动画效果非常有效。
Um, and it's something we've had when quite a lot of who designs the haptic stuff. Is there like a haptic designer? For the longest time, it would be a product designer or it initially started as like the engineer would be like, all right, you know, would cobble together haptics, um, based on what they felt good. Then it became a product design, um, role where they would kind of use their best judgment. We actually just recently required an animation studio, uh, Hobbes and Detroit and how they are the sort of keepers of, you know, they're do a lot of motion design where a haptics very close to that. And so they do a lot of that. I do remember trying to hire for a while a haptics, like contractor, like haptics design. And it was the saddest hiring I've ever taught because it was just like, I don't know, like it was such a specific like, I just went through a lot of people who,
嗯，这个问题我们已经讨论过很多次了，涉及到谁负责设计触觉反馈。有没有专门的触觉设计师呢？在很长一段时间里，这个工作通常由产品设计师承担，或者最初是由工程师根据他们自己觉得不错的方式拼凑出触觉反馈。后来，这成了产品设计的一个环节，设计师会用他们的最佳判断来完成。而我们最近收购了一家动画工作室，Hobbes and Detroit，他们主要负责很多运动设计，而触觉设计与此非常接近，所以他们也开展了许多这方面的工作。我记得我们曾试图招聘一名专门的触觉设计承包商，这也是我经历过的最艰难的招聘之一，因为这种角色非常专业化，因此我们面试了很多人，却一直无法找到合适的人选。
uh, you know, it's just a really tricky. It's a very tricky space of like kind of sound effects, kind of motion design, sort of technical. Yeah. Um, so it's not a unique role. Very unique, specific skill set. Right. And there's very few apps that really need this, this deeply. So you're almost creating this person. Yeah. That is fascinating. I don't want, I'm going to, that's like a whole podcast on its own. By the way, I was going to say, as you're talking about this, I love that.
呃，你知道，这真的很复杂。这是一个很复杂的领域，涉及一些声音效果、一些动态设计，还有点技术性。是的，所以这不是一个独特的角色，而是非常独特和具体的技能组合。这样的应用程序并不多，确实需要这么深层次的技能。所以你几乎是在创造这样一个人。这很吸引人。我想说，这本身就是一个可以单独做成播客的话题。顺便提一下，当你谈论这个时，我很喜欢。
Uh, it's a win to celebrate people that don't lose their streak. Like you introduced this way to make it flexible. And that's a big win. And then you could go the opposite direction of if you don't use this feature, you also feel even better. Well, and it's funny, you, like you talked about the, the danger of feature bloat. We sort of talked about the danger of feature bloat. This is actually something I'm constantly thinking about with this. Like we have the streak, but then we also have the perfect streak and we can count how many, we count how many weeks you've had a perfect streak.
这句话大意是：庆祝那些保持记录不断的人是一种胜利。你设计了一个更灵活的方式，这很棒。此外，如果你没有使用这个功能，可能也会有更好的感受。我们谈到过功能过多的危险，这也是我一直在考虑的问题。我们有连续记录，也有完美连续记录，并且可以统计你保持完美记录的周数。
All of a sudden we have two streak numbers that are kind of competing with each other. It's funny. We actually don't introduce the concept of a perfect streak until after you've hit seven days. And some of this is just because the cognitive load of additional streak features, a lot of our, like, cooler streak features, you got to get on a long enough streak. And not to say we haven't tested it because we haven't because we've done everything, introducing these features earlier. But what we've found is that pretty universally they lose when we introduce too many things, too many concepts to users to early in the experience. It's just hard for them to manage. Okay. Sweet. I know that we can go down this track for hours and hours. There's endless learnings about all the things you all have done along the journey. I'm going to shift to talking about how your team operates. So there's a lot of threads you touched on of just how a team can do this so well. Ship 600 experiments, as you said, continue to find opportunity. What are some maybe lessons or advice you'd have for folks that are like, Oh, wow, I want to work more like this. From your team's experience, how do you use your team to operate that folks can learn?
突然间，我们有两个连续记录的数字似乎在相互竞争。这很有趣。我们实际上是在连续达成七天后才引入完美连续记录的概念。这部分是因为增加额外的连续记录功能会给用户带来认知负担。我们有很多很酷的连续记录功能，但您需要达成足够长的连续天数才能解锁。并不是说我们没有测试过这些功能提前引入的效果，而是因为我们做过各种测试，我们发现如果在用户初次体验时引入太多概念，他们普遍无法很好地处理。好的，我知道我们可以讨论这个话题很久，因为有太多东西可以从你们一路走来的过程中学到。现在我要转到谈论你们团队的运作方式。你提到了很多关于一个团队如何高效运作的思考，像你说的那样推出600个实验并不断找到新的机遇。对于那些想要类似高效工作的人，你有哪些经验教训或建议？从你们团队的经验来看，大家如何利用团队有效运作，这也许是人们可以借鉴学习的。
Yeah, maybe just a little bit of context. So we're doing go cares a lot about metrics. So most of our teams are metric based teams. So we do the most work with streak, but, you know, are the metric. What we really care about at the end of the day is cur and and D. A.U. If you see that D.A. U.S. hit cur. And so when you can be really laser focused on my goal, each quarter is to make this metric go up. I think it's much easier to make sure that you're working on the highest ROI thing. I think when you think more about like, Oh, I want to make this feature better. I think it's easier to get lost and what better means and how you think about better. And so I do think that like having a really strong degree of focus, you know, as a team on, you know, what is the metric that I'm caring about? And how is that directing my efforts is versus feature oriented. So basically your teams are structured around a metric slash a goal slash outcome versus we own this.
好的，也许可以提供一点背景信息。我们非常看重指标，大多数团队都是以指标为基础的团队。我们主要和“streak”合作，但最终我们真正关心的是“CUR”和“DAU”。如果你看到“DAU”达到了“CUR”，那么你可以非常专注于每季度提升这个指标。我认为这样更容易确保你专注于最高投资回报率（ROI）的事情。我觉得当你更多地想着“我想改进这个功能”时，很容易迷失在什么算是改进以及你如何考虑改进。因此，我认为作为一个团队，拥有一个非常明确的重点，即明确关心的指标是什么，以及它如何指导你的努力，比仅仅关注某个功能更重要。所以，基本上，你们的团队是围绕一个指标/目标/结果而构建的，而不是单纯拥有一个项目或功能。
So retention owns streak, I guess, but that's only because we've seen streak drive cur better than any feature. But we are not. I mean, we have this, you know, I P hook with our streak freeze purchases. There are other teams that work on, you know, that can and have worked on the streak because it's not ours to say, no, no, we do all the iterations here. We just know that it drives our metric better in the same way that like leaderboards, you know, we have a team that focuses on how much time you spent. We want users to spend more time on doing this. So they're learning more leaderboards is the best vector for doing it. So that team does a lot of leaderboards work. But every now and then I have an idea that I think we highly retent it and I will go in and I will pitch to them and then we'll do some change the leaderboard to make it more attentive. And so, but I do think having that clear metric of we're trying to drive. Curr, not we're trying to just make this feature better helps at least make sure, you know, give the team clear marching orders and that focus, I think is really good for part. I'm not advertising backlog.
为了便于理解，我将这段话翻译成中文：
所以留存率的一部分原因是“连续使用”（streak），我想，这是因为“连续使用”在驱动客户保留方面比任何其他功能都有效。但这并不是我们唯一的途径。我们的确在“连续购买”上加了一些自己的IP钩子。有其他团队也在做关于“连续使用”的工作，因为我们不能说，只能由我们来进行所有迭代。我们只是知道，它能像排行榜一样有效地推动我们的指标。我们有一个团队专注于用户花费的时间，因为我们希望用户能在这方面投入更多时间，从而学到更多，而排行榜是实现这一目标的最佳手段。因此，那支团队在排行榜上做了很多工作。但有时我也会有一些想法，我认为可以高度提升留存率，所以我会去和他们沟通，然后我们会做一些改动，让排行榜更具吸引力。我确实认为，明确的指标，比如我们要推动的不是单独提升某个功能，而是增强整体效果，这能帮助团队明确行动方向，而这样的专注对项目非常有益。我并不是在宣传产品积压。
Cool. This is a really important point. This is the same way Airbnb worked when I worked there for a long time is it's here's a goal that we want your team to be responsible for. You can work on any product you need to hit this goal. As you said, often, like various products are most connected to what you're doing, but what you're describing is like, even though teams kind of like, I imagine you own it from a bug perspective and you kind of like, or the shepherd of this part of the feature because it hits your goal helps your girl most. But any other team can come in and be like, Jackson, we need to work on some streak stuff to help with learning. You know, like go for does that just a tangent there? Do they like work really closely with your team? If they want to do some work in the code, is it like, how does that work?
好的。这是一个非常重要的观点。这就像我在Airbnb工作时的情况一样：我们会设定一个目标，让你的团队为之负责。为了达成这个目标，你可以开发任何产品。正如你所说的，通常会有一些产品与你正在做的事情最相关，但实际上，尽管团队可能对某个功能负责，比如从修复bug的角度来看，你也许是这个部分的负责人，因为它最能帮助你达成目标。但是，任何其他团队都可以加入进来，比如说：“Jackson，我们需要做一些关于积极性提升的工作，以帮助学习。” 那么，他们会和你的团队密切合作吗？如果他们想在代码上做一些工作，这个过程是怎样的呢？
Yeah, if if if you're again, this is where I say there's soft ownership, we're not against teams doing things to the streak. But if we're going to do something, given, you know, we probably have multiple quarters worth of a roadmap around the stress. I'd say probably we do multiple quarters of roadmap for what we can do to the streak. If other teams want to come and mess with it, okay, we got to just figure out how is that going to work with, you know, what what our plans for the streak were. How do we make sure a lot of times when teams are coming in thinking, hey, let's do this to the streak. They're like in context that we might have. And so there's as much of like a much simpler version of what we're doing now, a bit of a knowledge sharing of saying, all right, well, this is what we think about the streak is what we've seen work hasn't worked. How does that influence some of the hypothesis that you have? And so I think getting that really. Making sure the juice is worth the squeeze. Good old fashioned product management work right there. Cool.
好的，如果您要参与其中，这是我所说的软性所有权，我们并不反对团队对 streak （某个连续的项目或计划）进行调整。但是，如果我们要做些什么，考虑到我们可能已经有多个季度的计划路线图来应对压力，我想说我们也会有多个季度的计划路线图来应对此 streak。如果其他团队想来干涉，我们需要弄清楚这如何与我们的计划相适应。很多时候，团队会以我们可能有的背景来进行调整。因此，有时候我们需要做一个简化版本的信息共享，比如说：“这是我们对 streak 的看法，这是我们看到的有效或无效的东西。”这些信息如何影响他们的一些假设。我们要确保付出的努力是值得的，这就是老派产品管理的工作。不错吧。
What else is interesting about how you all operate and how you'll work to achieve the sort of success? Again, my team-laid runs is Antonio runs like the most, you know, really process. If you're going to run this mini experience, you have to be really process oriented and really thoughtful about which experiments am I going to run when? How is that going to set up the next one? We, you know, there's there's heavy Jira automation. I think sometimes the Atlassian suite makes my eyes bleed, but like there's a lot of times where that degree of process helps the team unblock engineers and make them move really fast. And so making sure that you have really good process around how are you going to run so many experiments. It's, you know, it's worth investing in. Can you follow that thread actually? Just what do you, when you say that, what does that look like? What are some elements of that process to make this work efficiently?
你们团队的运作方式还有哪些有趣的地方，以及你们如何努力实现成功呢？我的团队中，Antonio 非常注重系统性。如果你想进行许多实验，一定要有很强的流程导向，认真思考每个实验的运行时机，以及如何为下一个实验铺路。我们团队在项目管理上使用了大量的 Jira 自动化。我有时觉得 Atlassian 套件让人眼花缭乱，但这样的流程有时能帮助团队为工程师扫清障碍，让他们能更快速地前进。因此，确保在进行大量实验时有一个良好的流程体系是非常值得投入的。可以详细说明一下这个流程吗？你所说的那些具体操作有哪些关键要素，以确保高效地开展工作呢？
All the way down to like really detailed roadmaps around, all right, we're running this experiment is based on the results of this experiment or might, you know, hook into an element of this feature. How do we make sure that we're lining up implementation on this so that as soon as this thing runs and we're ready to go, we can start rolling out the next one. You know, I hate features just sitting around and us not again continuing that thread. And so it's not just thinking about what's our engineering bandwidth, but also what's the design bandwidth to make sure that we have the next iteration of this feature ready to go. You know, we're planning months out as we think about these feature iterations, even small ones, you know, feature iterations because again, you just, you lose when you lose cycles, you know, not pushing on a feature. It's just sort of lost opportunity. And so everything from managed, you know, being thoughtful about engineering roadmaps to design roadmaps to product roadmaps. All of that needs to come together in a system.
这段话传达的意思是，我们需要制定非常详细的计划，包括实验的具体步骤和如何根据结果调整功能。我们要确保在实验结束后，能迅速开始推出下一个功能。我不喜欢功能做好后却搁置在那里。因此，我们不仅要考虑工程开发人员的工作量，还要考虑设计团队的工作量，以确保下一个版本的功能随时可以上线。即使是小的功能迭代，我们也要提前几个月规划，因为如果没有充分利用时间去推动功能迭代，就会丧失机会。因此，从工程计划到设计计划，再到产品计划，所有这些都需要系统地协调和整合起来。
So essentially mapping dependencies across function. And you're saying, and Jira, you can do this. You can do a lot of it in Jira. There is a non zero amount of Google Docs that we have that sometimes does things. Yep. A little bit. I don't know. Sometimes it just looks a little bit nicer. It's a little more possible. But Jira is our it is where the mother load of process is. Great. OK. What else?
好的，基本上就是对功能之间的依赖关系进行映射。你提到在 Jira 上可以做到这一点。在 Jira 上可以做很多这类事情。此外，我们还有一些 Google 文档，有时也能发挥作用。嗯，有一点，有时看起来更好看，也更方便。不过，Jira 是我们主要处理流程的地方。好的，还有什么？
Like another thing that I'll just say is like we really resist the urge to do the big V one. And I think this is, you know, I shared the the the street goal example where a lot of times when we're exploring something, we will say, OK, well, like that's cool. How do we strip away a bunch of stuff and figure out what our core hypothesis is and then just ship that thing first is a V one because it's easy.
就像我想说的另一件事，我们真的很抗拒直接做一个庞大的V1版本。我分享了一个街道目标的例子，通常当我们在探索某件事情时，我们会说，好吧，那很有趣。我们会想办法去掉很多不必要的东西，弄清楚我们的核心假设是什么，然后把这个核心假设作为V1版本先发布，因为这样做比较简单。
And I've found this time and time again. It's easy to add things to features that make them win. Like I work in retention engagement long enough. I can like add enough like things to pull and bells to add and whistles and to, you know, to make something when but. You know, there's a lot of times where it's like cool. They don't want to go to the whistles you added and not because of what your core hypothesis was.
我一次又一次地发现，增加一些让功能获胜的元素是很容易的。就像我在用户留存和互动方面工作得够久了，我可以添加足够多的吸引元素、铃铛或花哨的东西来让某个功能获胜。但是，很多时候，人们不愿意去使用你添加的那些花哨功能，这并不是因为你的核心假设出了问题。
And a lot of times, if you can just really simplify what the feature is, it's also much easier to ship. It's easier to design. You're not designing for a whole system. You're designing for, you know, something something much simpler. And so getting everybody to think that way ends up allow, you know, allows us to end up shipping faster, shipping simpler, you know, designing faster, getting faster, approval, getting insight.
很多时候，如果你能够真正简化功能的设计，就会更容易推向市场。设计起来也更简单。你不是在为一个完整的系统设计，而是在为某些更简单的东西设计。所以让每个人都以这种方式思考，可以帮助我们更快、更简单地发布产品、更快速地设计、更快地获得批准和见解。
And then doing what I talked about with street goal, being able to run iteration after iteration after iteration, add these things iteratively. And then, you know, you not only by doing this, are you able to move faster, but you get confidence at each step of the way that. Hey, my series of my policies, you know, is actually born out or if it's not cool, then we're going to drop that part of the feature and then just ship what actually matters.
然后，按照我之前提到的街道目标来做，能够一遍又一遍地进行迭代，逐步添加这些元素。这样一来，不仅能加快推进速度，而且在每个步骤上都能获得信心。你会发现，嘿，我的一系列策略实际上是有成效的。如果某个部分不太理想，那么我们就舍弃掉这一部分，只发布那些真正重要的内容。
If I can try to summarize kind of the broad lesson so far that I'm hearing and maybe you, you would have shared this, but I'm just thinking like if I were to. Try to design a company to operate that we all operate, you essentially map all the levers that drive the business. So you have kind of this mapping of all the metrics that drive up to growth and and daily active users.
如果我要尝试总结一下我目前所听到的总体经验教训，也许你已经分享过这个，但我只是想，如果我要设计一个公司来运作，我们所有人都会用这种方式，你基本上需要绘制出推动业务发展的各个杠杆的图谱。因此，你就会拥有一个推动增长和日活跃用户所有指标的全貌。
You, Kerr ended up being the biggest specific metric to move to drive growth long term. So there's like, imagine a tree of all the opportunities you could work on. You found like this is what is most connected to our growth long term. You basically just start mining. I don't know if mining is the right metaphor, but just like looking for things that move that specific metric, you just like look and poke and explore.
你，Kerr，最终发现，这个特定的指标成为推动长期增长的最大因素。所以可以想象，这就像一棵你可以进行工作的机会之树。而你发现这就是与我们长期增长最为相关的部分。基本上，你就开始深入挖掘。虽然不确定“挖掘”这个比喻是否准确，但就是不停地寻找、测试和探索那些能推动这个特定指标的因素。
And then once you find one, you just go real deep on trying a lot of different, you could come up with a hypothesis and a strategy of here's how we think we can do this and how we can move this. And then you just try a bunch of stuff. There's also this element of the rest of development quote. There's always money in the banana stand. It comes to mind where it's just like keep working on see, there's more, there's going to be more opportunity.
一旦你找到了一个（目标），你就要深入探索，尝试很多不同的方法。你可以提出一个假设和策略，比如我们认为可以这样做，以及如何推动事情发展。然后，你就去尝试各种方法。同时，这让我想起了《发展受阻》中的一句台词——香蕉摊里总是有钱。意思是要继续努力，总会有更多机会出现。
And when this when I joined Duolingo, the PM that I took over for Anton, who used to lead the retention team, I remember saying. Dude, the streak, like it just counts up. You guys have been tested on for years. How much more work can we do on the streak? And he was like Jackson, you child, he didn't say exactly this, but this is how I felt it. Like Jackson, you child, there is.
当我加入 Duolingo 的时候，我接替了 Anton 的工作，他曾负责用户保留团队。我记得我说过：“伙计，这个连续登录天数（streak）就是在积累天数。你们已经测试好多年了，我们还能对这个连续登录天数做多少改进呢？” 他就像是在说：“Jackson，你这个小朋友。”虽然他并没有这么说，但我当时的感觉就是这样。他的话意是说，还有很多事情可以做。
So we're not even 30% of the way optimized. And four years later, I say that with like such conviction, we are so far away from what I mean, we've made a ton of strides, but we are still so far away. And every quarter where we ship a ton of wins and you know, improvements to the streak, it just continues to prove to me that like there is so much more to be done.
我们目前的优化程度甚至还不到30%。四年后，我还是坚信这一点，我们与理想的状态还有很大的差距。尽管我们已经取得了很多进展，但离目标仍然遥远。每个季度，我们都会推出许多改进和突破，这不断地证明还有很多事情需要去做。
So I think your framing of it is, and I would say there's a lot of thought that goes into, you know, again, you know, I talk about the strength, the hypothesis that you have, you know, you have to have as you start to build. That larger, you know, future strategy. I do think it's really important to not just do a bunch of random stuff, but do it with intent, you know, with a goal in mind.
所以我认为你的表达方式是这样的，我想说的是，在建立整体的未来战略时，需要投入大量的思考。我一直在强调，你需要有一个强有力的假设作为基础。我确实认为，不应该只是随意地做一些事情，而是要带着明确的意图和目标去做。
Otherwise, you do end up in these local, you know, local maximas, but yeah, I mean, there's still a bunch of stuff that we haven't tried the, you know, I think we have high confidence and, you know, working out. And so we'll keep doing that. Are there any other say lasting lessons from this journey that if someone were to try to operate this way, build streaks into their product, anything you'd recommend?
翻译成中文如下：
否则，你可能会陷入这些所谓的局部最大值之中。不过，我的意思是，我们仍然有很多东西还没有尝试过，我想我们对解决这些问题非常有信心。因此，我们会继续努力。对于这段旅程，还有没有什么其他持久的经验教训，如果有人想要以这种方式运作，把连续性融入他们的产品，有什么建议吗？
Yeah, I really do think it starts with, you know, streaks are an engagement hack. You know, you can, you can make your app more retentive. I'm almost positive. Almost every app out there can make it more attentive. It is loss aversion. That is, you know, again, armchair psychologist Jackson, like it's just a human thing that works on humans.
是的，我真的认为这要从一个概念说起，就是连胜和连击，其实是提高用户参与度的一种方法。你知道，你可以让你的应用更具吸引力和用户留存度。我几乎可以肯定，市面上几乎每个应用都能够通过这种方式来实现更高的留存率。这种方法其实利用了人的“损失厌恶”心理，这就是为什么它能在人类身上起作用。
But if your, if your app is not something that users want to use every day or whatever, you know, cadence you want your app to be, you know, to work on, it's going to be you're only going to get so much from that streak. And honestly, it's probably going to distract you from what really should matter, which is making your app something that people want to use every day. And so if you start focusing on the streak, but you haven't made that a enjoyable experiment experience, you're just going to waste a lot of time, honestly.
但如果你的应用不是用户每天或在你设定的频率上想要使用的，那么你从使用天数记录中得到的好处可能会非常有限。坦白说，这可能会让你偏离真正重要的事情，那就是让你的应用成为人们每天都想使用的东西。所以，如果你开始专注于保持使用天数记录，却没有让使用过程变得愉快，那实际上你只是在浪费时间。
And so I think making sure that you have your core loop of your app figured out that that it is giving value to users is something that they want to come back to every day. That really sets the stage for something to layer a streak on. So resist the temptation. If you haven't, you know, if you don't think you've reached that point to go too hard down the, you know, the path of streak. That's a really good point. Just like a streak is not going to solve your problems if people don't actually care about the core value you're providing.
因此，我认为确保你的应用程序的核心循环已经明确，并为用户提供他们每天都想要返回的价值，这是非常重要的。这为未来增加用户连续使用的功能打下了基础。所以，如果你还没有达到这个阶段，就要克制住冲动，不要过于急于追求用户的使用连续性。这是个很好的建议。就像如果人们对你提供的核心价值不感兴趣，那用户连续使用的功能也无法解决你的问题。
No, and honestly, it'll probably cause more problems. If what you end up focusing on is how do I make the streak highly engaging, but your app is on? I mean, you're just, you're, you're, you're wasting time that could otherwise be, you know, better spent on solving more or critical problems. So that's, that's one learning. You know, the other thing that I'll say is, and we, we met with one of our board members, um, Bing, Bing Gordon. A few weeks or a few months ago, rather, and he had this comment where he was just like, the reason why users care about your streak so much is because you care about your streak so much, you being dueling.
不，这样做可能会导致更多问题。如果你只专注于如何让连续打卡更具吸引力，但是你的应用本身并没有创新呢？这简直是在浪费时间，这些时间本可以用来解决更重要的问题。这是一个教训。另外，我想说的是，我们最近与我们的董事会成员之一聊过，几周或几个月前吧，他叫Bing Gordon。他提到的一点是，用户之所以如此在乎连续打卡，是因为你们（指你的团队）也非常在意这个。
Like the reason why users care about our streak so much is dueling. Go cares about the streak so much. We're like, what do you mean? Well, he's like, well, after every session, you see a big streak screen and it's animated cooler than almost any other screen in the app. And then sometimes you see some other screens and there's all these other feet. Like you don't let a user forget it. You talk about them and messages. And, and so I think it's worth thinking about. Look, if you're going to build a streak and then you're going to second it off into the corner of your app, uh, you know, where users aren't going to see it.
用户如此关注我们的连胜记录的原因在于竞争。我们对连胜记录也非常关心。我们会问，为什么呢？他会说，因为在每次会话结束后，你会看到一个很炫酷的连胜记录屏幕，这个屏幕的动画效果几乎比应用中的其他任何屏幕都要好。有时候你会看到其他界面以及各种引人注目的内容，你绝不会让用户忘记它。我们还会在消息中谈论它们。所以我认为值得思考的是，如果你要创建一个连胜记录功能，却把它放在应用的一角，用户很可能不会注意到它。
Like they're probably not going to care about it as much and which might be fine because there might be other lovers that you think are more important to pull on. But there's a reason why, you know, we focus as much on the streak, you know, as, as we do. And that's because we want it to be top of mind for, for users and it's not by accident done that users start to care about. And so I think just as you're thinking about building the streak, making sure that you're giving it the visibility it deserves. If you want it to have the kind of impact the dueling go has, um, you know, it's, it's sort of an important hierarchy principle to think about as you design things.
他们可能不会那么在意这件事，这也没关系，因为可能有其他你认为更重要的因素需要优先考虑。但是，有一个原因，我们如此关注连胜纪录。那是因为我们希望它能成为用户的关注重点，让用户开始在意这不是偶然的。所以，当你考虑建立这种连胜机制时，要确保它得到了应有的关注。如果你希望它产生像多邻国那样的影响，那么在设计事物时，考虑这种重要性层次原则是很重要的。
That's such a good point. Like you look for cues to the app of tell me what I should pay attention to, what's important if you're just like fire explosions, you made a streak. Oh, maybe I should pay attention to this feature. And then the push notifications, obviously encourage you there to anything else along those lines. Maybe final thing is, look, we ran so many tests on our dueling go streak to figure out what work. I mean, we have a, we have a philosophy of dueling go have tested first. You know, we are a lot of times willing to test things.
那是个很好的观点。你在寻找应用程序中的提示，告诉你应该关注什么、什么是重要的。如果程序只是有火花效果或爆炸效果，你就会想，哦，也许我应该注意这个功能。然后推送通知显然也会在这方面鼓励你。最后一个想说的是，我们对我们的多邻国（Dueling Go）连胜进行了很多测试，以找出什么有效。我们多邻国的理念是先测试。我们很多时候愿意去测试不同的东西。
I really think that if you're going to, you're going to try to introduce a streak or you want to improve on the streak you have, like, don't get too caught up in the, the, the philosophy of everything. I mean, make sure your hypotheses feel like they're good. But my recommendation is just try things. And this is again, you said it earlier. It's like, this is much human psychology is anything. And as soon as that becomes the case, like you kind of just got to understand what users respond to. And the easiest way to do that is to stop spending time, you know, batting around ideas in a conference room and just try some stuff.
我真的认为，如果你想引入一个新的连胜（或连续成功），或者想改善现有的连胜，不要过于沉迷于各种哲学理论。我的意思是，确保你的假设看起来合理。但我的建议是，不妨直接去尝试。正如你之前提到的，这在很大程度上涉及到人类心理学。一旦涉及到这方面，你就需要了解用户的反应。对此，最简单的方法就是停止在会议室里空想，而是直接去尝试一些新的东西。
So huge recommendation to like, if you're going to invest in a streak, try and figure out what works through testing with users rather than trying to get it perfect on the first step. Say someone's listening and they're like, should we do streak? Because it's worth doing. What's your take on just like the chances that a streak feature would be helpful to another consumer? I am well known for saying in the company that I think every street, every team, every app could benefit from a streak.
如果你打算投资一个“连续打卡”功能，我强烈建议你通过用户测试来找出有效的方法，而不是一开始就追求完美。假如有人在倾听，并想知道是否应该加入这样的功能，我会说这个功能是值得尝试的。在我看来，“连续打卡”有可能对任何消费者都有帮助。我在公司里以常说这句话而闻名：我认为每一次连续记录、每个团队、每个应用都能从中获益。
Now, how you implement it is very different. And I think you got to like, what is your users use case? Like if they're going to come use, I don't know, tax software. OK, you know, not that I say this tax software to be a hard one, but maybe it's all about, you know, you need users to come back every day during the tax season or how many times, I don't know, you know, now that I say this out loud times you have blood, you're you're. Not a hard.
现在，如何实现它是非常不同的。我认为你需要考虑用户的使用场景。比如说，如果他们是来使用税务软件的，不是说税务软件很难用，但可能涉及到用户在报税季节期间需要每天回来使用，或是不知道具体要使用多少次。说起来并不复杂。
Yeah, that is hard use case. But I say the vast majority of companies, I think, have a good idea of like, all right, here is my ideal use case. I want users to come here three times a month. That that would be ideal. You know, our four times a month, you can build a streak to work. I mean, Peloton has has weekly streaks because the idea of doing a Peloton, you know, work out every single day is hard for a lot of was hard for this user during COVID.
是的，那是一个很难实现的使用场景。但我认为绝大多数公司对自己的理想使用场景都有一个很好的概念，比如说：“好吧，这就是我理想的使用场景。我希望用户每个月来这里三次。”这样就很理想了。每个月来四次也可以建立一种连续互动的模式。我的意思是，Peloton有每周的连续记录，因为对很多用户来说，每天都进行一次Peloton锻炼是很困难的，尤其是在疫情期间。
You know, it's just like every now and then you get on the Peloton. That was great. But the idea of a weekly streak was something that I could keep up. And so I think figure out what your usage pattern is is a user and then build your streak around it. But, you know, as long as you're not, you know, the like a release, again, the text example is probably a good counterfactual. But as long as you have some degree of frequency in your in your use, I think almost anything in a, in a streak.
你知道，就好像有时候你会用一下Peloton，那感觉很不错。但要让我每周都有规律地使用是我可以做到的。所以我觉得，首先你得搞清楚自己是怎么使用这些工具的，然后根据你的使用习惯来设定一个连击目标。但是，你知道，只要你不是像例子中提到的那种完全不使用的情况，只要你的使用频率达到一定程度，我觉得几乎什么东西都可以有一个连击。
So Dooling gets again, a $14 billion company. This feature possibly the most contributing factor other than the core, you know, product to that level of success and market cap. And it's hard to imagine another just feature of a product that has had this much impact on on growth and revenue and building this sort of business. So I love that we spent this much time on it. The motherload, the motherload of advice and insights. So thank you again for giving you a very fun with that.
因此，Dooling 又一次获得了一家价值 140 亿美元的公司。除了核心产品之外，这一功能可能是成功和市值达到如此高水平的最大贡献因素。很难想象还有其他产品功能能对增长、收入和业务构建产生如此大的影响。所以我很高兴我们花了这么多时间讨论这个功能。这真是满满的建议和见解。再次感谢你们在这方面给予的乐趣。
We reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm ready. First question. What are two or three books you recommended most to other people? All right, I'll start with a guide to Midwest conversation. So I'm based in Kansas City. I'm a proud Midwesterner and us Midwesterners talk in a certain way. I think, you know, you hear about Minnesota. Nice. But we tend not to say what we mean. And it is a very funny primer into what Midwesterners actually mean when they say what they say. So highly recommend reading that.
我们到了非常激动人心的快问快答环节。你准备好了吗？我准备好了。第一个问题，你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？好的，我会先提到一本关于中西部交流指南的书。我住在堪萨斯城，是一个自豪的美国中西部人，而我们中西部人的交流有自己独特的方式。我觉得，你可能听说过“明尼苏达友好”，但实际上我们往往话中有话。这本书非常有趣，它帮助理解中西部人在说话时的真实意思。所以我强烈推荐阅读这本书。
I like that they give that to people just like, here's what I might be telling you, which you may not read. About my wife is German and I gave it to her. So you can see German being the opposite of that. OK, very different. Another book. This is a good one. Fate is the hunter's. This is a really cool book. It's a memoir of one of the early commercial airline pilots. And it is wild to hear the stories about what flying was back in the day. You know, I'm former management consultant. I flew every week for almost six years. And I never once had to worry about, am I going to make it to the other end of this flight live? That was not the case back then.
我喜欢他们把这东西给大家，就像是：“这是我可能会告诉你的事情，但你可能不会看。” 我妻子是德国人，我把它给了她。你可以看到德国人完全相反，非常不同。还有一本书，这本不错，叫《命运是猎手》。这本书非常有趣，是关于早期商业航空飞行员的回忆录。听他们讲述过去飞行的故事简直让人惊叹。我之前是一名管理顾问，差不多六年间每周都要乘飞机，但我从来不用担心能否安全到达目的地。那时候可不是这样。
And so some of the stories about what it used to be like to be a pilot on some of these planes before modern aviation technology is fascinating. It makes you really appreciate what we have. It feels good to read a book like that being a software PM or engineer, whatever, like how different that life is hard hardware is hard or different. Oh, man, it's not happy design. Okay, next. Unless there's any other books you're going to share now.
所以，有些关于早期担任这些飞机飞行员的故事非常吸引人，让人感叹现代航空技术的进步。这种书会让我们更加珍惜现在所拥有的一切。作为软件产品经理或工程师，读到这样的书会让人感受到生活的不同，硬件的挑战或者差异性。天啊，这真不是让人轻松的设计。好了，接着说，除非你现在还有其他图书要分享。
Ok great. What's a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed? So I have two kids. I watch a lot of bluey. It's really good. It's where it's it brings me no shortage of joy. But adult show that I or show not meant for four year olds that I have watched. I just finished the latest season of Emily in Paris. Man, wonderful. I realize it's not the highest brow of television, but just like beautiful people and beautiful cities solving problems that are not, you know, earth-shattering. Sometimes it is nice to just tune out. Also, I'm learning French on Duolingo, a slight plug for the app. I can understand a lot of the French that is being spoken.
好的，太好了。最近有没有你特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？我有两个孩子，所以我经常看《蓝色小考拉》。这部动画很棒，带给我无尽的快乐。不过，对于成年人看的节目或者不是为四岁孩子制作的节目，我刚刚看完了《艾米丽在巴黎》的最新一季。哇，太精彩了。我知道这不是最高深的电视剧，但看到漂亮的人们在美丽的城市中解决一些不是震撼世界的问题，有时候放松地看看真是不错。另外，我在用Duolingo学法语，所以稍微宣传一下这个应用。我能听懂很多剧中的法语。
And there is no better joy than having invested as much time as I have in French and actually being able to use it. So huge fan of Emily. That is so funny. What a fun event diagram of interests. My mother loves Emily in Paris. I saw someone tweeting about like, what what these issue on? How is she still in Paris? Yeah, you bet. Just not ask questions. There's a lot of questions for the show that are better. I'm not sure. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered? Did that you really like other than Duolingo? Last week, I went to Home Depot and I bought a new ladder and ladder innovations. You don't think, you know, of often, but you can make one of the legs go a little bit further than the other leg.
没有什么比投入大量时间学习法语并真正能用上它更令人开心的事情了。我是Emily的超级粉丝，真是太有趣了。这么多兴趣交集的事件，我妈妈非常喜欢《艾米丽在巴黎》。我看到有人在推特上发文提到那些剧情问题，说艾米丽怎么还在巴黎。你最好别去想那么多问题，这部剧有太多细节无法解释。我不太确定。你最近有发现特别喜欢的产品吗，除了Duolingo？上周，我去了Home Depot，买了一个新梯子，梯子的创新设计很有意思。你可能不常想到，但你可以把其中一条腿拉得比另一条更长。
And somebody like myself who has a house that is built on a slight slope. Every time I go up in my ladder, I take my life in my hands. But with this ladder, I'm always even I clean my gutters twice last week, just because of how awesome this ladder has how much this ladder has changed my life. So ladder innovation, I don't think it gets talked enough about. And so I'm happy to give it the spotlight it deserves. I appreciate you doing that. And this is the first ladder recommendation we've had on the podcast.
对于像我这样住在斜坡上的人来说，每次我爬上梯子，都是在冒生命危险。但是自从用了这个梯子后，我觉得安全多了。上周我打扫了两次排水沟，因为这个梯子实在太棒了，甚至改变了我的生活。我觉得梯子的创新其实没有得到足够的关注，所以我很高兴能为它给予应得的关注。我感谢你这样做。这也是我们在这个播客中首次推荐梯子。
Two more questions. You have a favorite life motto that you really find useful in worker in life. They share with folks. This probably will not be much of a surprise based on how I've talked about our willingness to test things, but you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. I'm a big fan of just trying things even if your possibility of success is not 100. Because you learn a lot along the way. So final question. Do you have any fun traditions at Duolingo amongst either the PM team or the company in general? That might be delightful to share. We have way too many traditions to count. Um, I will share the weird tradition that we do at every retention stand up.
再问两个问题。你是否有一个特别喜欢的生活格言，并且认为它在工作和生活中非常有用？你可以跟大家分享一下。根据我之前谈论我们愿意尝试新事物的态度，这可能不会让人感到惊讶：你错过的每一个机会都是因为没有去尝试。我非常赞同尝试新事物，即使成功的可能性不是100%。因为在这个过程中你会学到很多东西。那么最后一个问题是：在Duolingo，你们的产品经理团队或整个公司有没有什么有趣的传统可以分享一下？我们的传统多到数不清。我来分享一下我们在每次保留率会议上进行的一项奇怪的传统。
And this started during the pandemic. You know, we obviously used to stand up in person and then when we went remote, we did this thing where whoever's the last person to go would count down three to one. And then we'd all try to clap at the same time, which was kind of fun and dorky, but we fell in love with it. And four years later, we're still doing it. Recently, we've added, we all say yee ha in unison afterwards. I can't tell you why. Um, but trying to synchronize a clap via zoom and then all shouting yee ha. I did this in a phone booth the other day and after I came out, someone told me, you know that those aren't as soundproof as you think, but, you know, when you get a good opportunity to give a yee ha, you kind of can't pass up on it.
这件事始于疫情期间。你知道，我们以前显然是亲自站出来，而当我们变成远程工作时，我们就做了这么一个事情：每次轮到最后一个人发言时，他就会倒数三二一，然后我们所有人努力在同一时间拍手，这有点有趣和傻气，但我们爱上了这个活动。四年后，我们仍然在坚持这样做。最近，我们又加了一项内容，就是在同时拍手后齐声喊“yee ha”。我不能告诉你为什么，但我们用Zoom同步拍手并一起喊“yee ha”。有一天我在电话亭里这样做，出来后有人告诉我，你知道那些电话亭的隔音效果没有你想的那么好，但你知道，当有机会喊一下“yee ha”时，你真的很难拒绝。
So I love these little things. Like they're so, you know, they sound so minor, but they're such important elements of team culture and tradition and so important for PMS to find ways to just have fun and do something ridiculous. I will say it took a while to get people behind shouting yee ha. But now that we have people doing it, you can't, you can't take it away from there. We all love it. Oh, man, I called our all hands for a while. Y'all hands. Feel free to steal that. You get it. You get it, Lenny. Yeah, I get it. Jackson. This is incredible. I feel like people are going to listen to this with no books and just like, okay, here, here's a bunch of ideas we should try with whatever we're working on, whether it's streaks or not.
所以，我非常喜欢这些小事。虽然它们看起来很微不足道，但却是团队文化和传统中非常重要的元素，尤其对于产品经理来说，找到一些可以放松和做一些荒唐事的方法非常重要。我得说，让大家一起喊“yee ha”花了点时间。但现在大家都参与了，你就不能把这个拿走。我们都很喜欢。哦，伙计，有段时间我把我们的全员大会叫做“Y'all hands”。随便拿去用。你明白的，对吧，Lenny？是的，我明白了，Jackson。这太棒了。我感觉大家会认真听，然后说：“好吧，这里有一些我们可以尝试的想法，不管我们正在做什么项目，都可以试一试。”
Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Working folks find you online. If they want to reach out, learn more, learn more about Duolingo, you know, you're hiring product managers to share more there. And finally, how can listeners be useful to you? Yes. You can find me on LinkedIn. That is where most of my online social media is. So Jackson, shuttle earth. And then how people can be useful to me. Yes, as you said, we are hiring. We're actually hiring for my team. Are you interested in thinking about streaks as much as we do? You know, we might be the right home for you. So please, you know, you can plan our website. We're also hiring for a number of other product management roles and they're all as thrilling as this work is. And then, you know, I'm always interested about how other companies have implemented streaks and what they've learned.
非常感谢您来到这里。还有两个最后的问题。大家如何在网上找到您？如果他们想了解更多信息，或者想知道更多关于Duolingo的消息，比如您正在招聘产品经理，这方面的信息。另外，听众们可以如何对您有所帮助呢？
您可以在LinkedIn上找到我，那是我主要使用的线上社交媒体平台，我的名字是Jackson Shuttleworth。至于大家能如何帮助我，正如您所说，我们正在招聘，特别是我的团队正在招人。您是否对"连击"（streaks）的概念感兴趣和我们一样？也许我们就是适合您的地方。所以请访问我们的网站，我们还在招聘其他多个产品管理职位，这些职位都和这份工作一样让人兴奋。我也一直对其他公司如何实施"连击"以及他们学到了什么感兴趣。
And so what I'd say is if you're a company who's implemented a streak, maybe in a different way than Duolingo has or, you know, you found a whole ton of success and, you know, another vector, another element to the feature that we didn't talk about today, I would love to know more. I used to catalog basically every streak I found out there. And as it's become more of a popular feature, it's just been hard to keep up on. So, you know, if you have interesting streak insights to send my way, I would love to hear them. I love that. A collection of all the best ways of doing streaks.
如果你是一家公司，已经以不同于Duolingo的方式实施了连续签到，或者你在另一个方面或功能元素中取得了极大的成功，而我们今天没有谈及这些内容，我非常希望了解更多。我以前习惯记录我发现的每一个连续签到功能。然而，随着这一功能变得越来越流行，跟进变得越来越困难。所以，如果你有有趣的连续签到见解想跟我分享，我非常乐意倾听。我非常喜欢收集有关如何最佳实践连续签到的各种方法。
Jackson, I just want to say congrats to your team and you for having so much impact. This is like the dream of a lot of PMs and teams is to see this much impact and continue to ship wins. And so congrats. Nice work. Thanks for your attention. And with that, Jackson, thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thank you, Lenny. This was a lot of fun. Same. Bye, everyone.
Jackson，我只是想祝贺你和你的团队取得了如此大的影响力。这是许多产品经理和团队的梦想，就是看到这样的成果并继续取得胜利。因此，祝贺你们。做得很好。谢谢你的关注。谢谢你，Jackson，非常感谢你来到这里。谢谢你，Lenny。我很享受这次交流。我也是。再见，大家。
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非常感谢您的收听。如果您觉得这期节目有价值，可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或您喜欢的播客应用上订阅我们的节目。同时，请考虑为我们打分或留下评论，因为这可以帮助其他听众找到我们的播客。您可以在lenny's podcast.com上找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。期待在下一期节目中与您再见！