223. What About All the Questions We Haven’t Answered?
发布时间 2024-12-15 01:00:00 来源
Hey there, I am Stephen Dubner. If you were listening last week, you know that this is the final new episode of No Stupid Questions. Everyone here at the Freakin'omics Radio Network is proud of the five years worth of episodes we've made and we are especially grateful for you, our amazing community of listeners. And we don't want to leave you with nothing to listen to, so starting next week, we are going to replay this series from the beginning, more than 200 episodes. So come back then to hear the very first episode of No Stupid Questions. And now for their final new episode, here are Angela and Mike.
大家好，我是斯蒂芬·杜布纳。如果你上周有收听我们的节目，你就会知道这是《没有愚蠢问题》最后一集的新节目。Freakonomics Radio Network的所有人对于我们过去五年制作的节目感到自豪，我们特别感谢你们——我们了不起的听众群体。我们不想让你们没有节目可听，所以从下周开始，我们将从头重播这个系列，共超过200集。所以请继续关注，收听《没有愚蠢问题》的第一集。现在，为了最后一集新节目，欢迎安吉拉和迈克。
I'm excited to learn from you what the purpose of life is. I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm Mike Marn. And you're listening to No Stupid Questions. Today on the show, what do we do with unanswered questions? What is life all about? What is the nature of human existence? Mike, this is our final episode and to be honest, it's a bittersweet moment. It is a bittersweet moment. I mean, look together, we've discussed so many amazing questions about human nature and the end of the show means that there are a lot of questions that are going to go unanswered.
我很期待从你那里学习到生命的意义。我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。我是迈克·马恩。您正在收听《没有愚蠢的问题》。今天的节目讨论的是：我们如何处理没有答案的问题？生命的意义是什么？人类存在的本质是什么？迈克，这一集是我们的最后一集，说实话，这是一个苦乐参半的时刻。确实是一个苦乐参半的时刻。回头看看，我们一起探讨了许多关于人性的问题，而节目的结束意味着还有很多问题将没有答案。
Wait, we didn't answer all questions about human nature. Shockingly no. You know, in life, maybe there always will be more questions. I mean, Mike, what do we do with all the unanswered questions? Well, there, Angela Duckworth is the question of questions. Let's talk about that as our last conversation. How about that? I love that idea because there are so many unanswered questions. I mean, the way I kind of look at it and I'm going to say this with the confidence of a non-scientist who's only speaking from life experience. But I kind of think about questions in three categories. There's sort of the educational, like knowledge exists and we need to find it. There's the experiential, which is, should I take this job, get into this relationship, move to this new place, whatever. And then there's the existential, which is like, what's the purpose of life?
等等，我们并没有回答所有关于人性的疑问。令人震惊的是，并没有。你知道的，生活中也许总会有更多的问题。我的意思是，迈克，我们该如何处理那些未解答的问题呢？那么，安吉拉·达克沃思就是这些问题中的重中之重。我们就把这个作为最后的对话吧，你觉得怎么样？我很喜欢这个主意，因为有太多未解答的问题。我的看法是，我会用一个非科学家的自信来说这个想法，只是来自生活经验。但我觉得问题可以分为三类。有教育类问题，比如知识是存在的，我们需要去发现它。有经验类问题，比如我应该接受这份工作吗，进入这段关系吗，搬到一个新地方去吗，等等。然后是存在类问题，比如说，生命的意义是什么。
I mean, we've talked on those two questions at length at various times about how not knowing how uncertainty, how unresolved doubt, how ambiguity is aversive. Right. The state of not knowing the lack of closure. Someone argue that the whole world is in a state of anxiety and uncertainty, like we are in a moment in history, politically, where it's not certain how things are going to go. People feel that way about the economy, about gendered of AI. I think that that's absolutely true. I think a big piece of our ability to have a happy, healthy, meaningful life is our ability to learn to deal with uncertainty.
我的意思是，我们已经多次详细讨论过两个问题：不知道、不确定性、未解决的疑虑和模糊性是多么让人感到厌烦。就是说，那种不知道结果，缺乏结论的状态让人不安。有人认为整个世界都处于焦虑和不确定的状态，比如在政治上，我们正处于一个历史时刻，未来如何发展并不确定。人们对经济、人工智能的性别问题也有类似的感受。我认为这绝对是真的。我认为我们能否过上快乐、健康、有意义的生活，很大程度上取决于我们学习如何应对不确定性的能力。
There are several clinical psychologists that I've been reading about who've started working with patients trying to bolster their tolerance for uncertainty because much of what feeds into anxiety is this fact that people need to grow the muscle of developing greater tolerance for uncertainty. So not resolving the uncertainty, but like holding it. Right. There's so much uncertainty that can't be resolved immediately. I don't know what's going to happen with AI, right? Like, I can't fix that. So it has to be how to deal with it rather than to get the answer to what will happen.
我最近读过一些关于临床心理学家的文章，他们开始与患者合作，帮助他们提高对不确定性的容忍度。这是因为，很多导致焦虑的因素在于人们需要锻炼增强对不确定性的忍耐力。这并不是要解决不确定性，而是学会承受它。对吧？有很多不确定性无法立即解决。比如，我不知道人工智能的发展会怎样，我不能改变这一点。因此，我们需要学会如何应对不确定性，而不是期待获得明确的答案。
Is that the goal, though? I wonder about this. Like, is the goal to be able to tolerate uncertainty? Like, is that as good as it gets? Or is the idea that you can actually enjoy a state of unknowing? I mean, is the high water mark that you get to a kind of ability to hold it and not fall apart? Or is it actually supposed to be a wonderful thing to have unresolved questions in your life? I will just say that with my experience in sports, I've talked to a bunch of professional athletes who are going into these really, really big moments in their lives, whether it's game seven of a world series or NBA finals, and they have to get to a point in their mind where they re-frame the anxiety, the fear, the pressure into excitement.
这就是目标吗？我对此感到疑惑。目标是能够容忍不确定性吗？这就是极限了吗？还是说，我们其实可以享受未知的状态？我的意思是，所谓的最高境界是能够承受不确定性而不崩溃，还是说，生活中有未解之谜其实是一件美妙的事情？就我在体育方面的经验来说，我曾与许多职业运动员交流过，他们在面临人生中非常重要的时刻，比如世界大赛第七场或者NBA总决赛时，必须在心里达到一个境界，把焦虑、恐惧和压力重新框架为兴奋。
And if they can reframe that in their own minds, that this moment is all excitement versus fear, anxiety, uncertainty, doubt. Now, how do you do that? I can't pretend I have any idea how to do that. But that's how they've talked about how they got through that moment. Okay. So you're coming down on the side of it can be a good thing. I taught a paper to my undergraduates in this current semester where I'm teaching about grit and about finding, you know, passion and perseverance for long-term goals in your own life. And when I teach this class, I like to teach this article that was published some years ago, 2019, by a group of researchers who asked the question, when you are confused.
如果他们能够在自己心中重新定义这个时刻，将其视为充满兴奋而非恐惧、焦虑、不确定和怀疑的时刻，那么就能有所不同。那么，该如何做到这一点呢？我不能假装知道怎么做。但那些经历过这种时刻的人就是这样谈论自己度过难关的。所以，你倾向于认为这可以是件好事。在我本学期教的本科生课程中，我教授有关坚韧，以及如何在生活中找到实现长期目标的热情和毅力。我喜欢教授一篇由一组研究人员在2019年发表的文章，他们提出了一个问题：当你感到困惑时，你会怎么做。
And I think that's one way to describe this lack of resolution, this like, I have a question, but I don't know what the answer is. When you have this feeling of confusion, does it lead you to be more interested as in your leaning in? I'm excited about this or the opposite, right? The run a bunch of studies and a lot of different contexts, you know, problem solving and how people respond to art or a poem. And what they find is that it depends. I am shocked that that's the answer. It depends. Yeah, that's a good no word summary of, yeah, if you want to know the answer to like all of the unanswered questions, it depends. That would be one way to succinctly tie up any doubt anyone has. It does always depend.
我认为这可以用来描述一种缺乏解决方案的状态：我有一个问题，但不知道答案是什么。当你有这种困惑感时，它会让你更感兴趣吗？比如让你更加投入？或者相反，这感觉让你退缩呢？研究人员在很多不同的情境中进行了大量研究，比如问题解决、人们如何回应艺术或诗歌等。他们发现答案是：视情况而定。我对这个答案感到惊讶：视情况而定。哦，这确实是一个很好的总结方式。如果你想知道所有未解之谜的答案，那就是：视情况而定。这是总结任何人疑问的一种简洁方式。答案总是取决于情况。
But in this case, it depends on something that we've talked about before, Mike, which is the big five personality trait of openness to experience. And what they found is that when you are high in this personality trait of openness to experience, you know, the kind of person who wants to go to museums and read books and frankly is interested in conversations and questions, those people actually are able to feel confused and to feel interested at the same time. They have like an approach orientation. They're like, Oh, I don't understand that. And they lean in, right? And then if you're very low in openness to experience, you don't get that. And I mean, confusion, some would argue is like the hallmark of the learning state, like people don't learn when they're not confused and you don't learn when you're not uncertain either.
但在这种情况下，这取决于我们之前谈到的一个因素，Mike，那就是大五人格特质中的开放性。而研究发现，当一个人在开放性这个人格特质上得分高时，也就是说，这种人喜欢去博物馆、读书，对对话和各种问题感兴趣，他们通常能够同时感到困惑和兴趣。他们有一种积极的态度，面对不理解的事物时会更加投入。然而，如果在开放性特质上得分很低的人就不会这样。而且，有人认为困惑正是学习状态的重要标志，因为人们在不感到困惑或不确定时是很难学习新的东西的。
I think that the thing you need to make uncertainty feel exciting is the confidence that you will eventually know. I think uncertainty that you do not expect to ever get resolved does not lead to interest and the flow state and approach motivation. Interesting. There has to be some confidence that you will know. So it can be in a way the best life, but it's not like that for everyone. And maybe you're right. Maybe we can just be like an NBA player and be like, it's excitement. You're like, channel your inner, you know, high big five open to experience persona. But I think there's a reason from an evolutionary perspective that we are seeking to escape uncertainty, right? Like even when you say it's a wonderful life to be like constantly asking questions or I don't think you're depicting a life where people just sit with uncertainty and don't try to resolve it.
我认为，要让不确定性感到令人兴奋，你需要有信心最终能够洞悉一切。如果你认为某种不确定性永远不会得到解决，就不会产生兴趣、心流状态和接近动机。这很有趣。必须有一种信心，相信你会知道。因此，这种生活方式可能是最好的，但并不是对所有人都是如此。或许你是对的，也许我们可以像NBA球员那样，把它当作一种兴奋，发挥内心对新体验开放的特质。但我认为，从进化的角度来看，我们有理由寻求逃避不确定性，对吗？即便你说这是一种不断提出问题的美好生活，我不认为你是在描述人们只是坐在那里，对不确定性置之不理而不试图解决的生活。
Right. So there's always a movement towards understanding, which I think is a survival instinct, right? Like you can't not know whether this is or isn't a good patch to forage in or like that is or isn't a predator. Lack of knowing is a dangerous thing. It is a dangerous thing. I think lack of asking questions is more dangerous. And again, I know we're talking about almost different questions here. There are so many types of unanswered questions. One is just being curious about the world around you. Learning. I think that AI can seem really scary. And we can start getting experience with it. And once we begin using it and seeing how it works and gaining some familiarity, some things become less scary. We've said before the old line, it's hard to hate up close, right? We can be really afraid of people or situations or quote, otherness, but hard to hate up close if we ask the questions who these people are.
好的。所以，总是有一种趋向于理解的运动，这在我看来是一种生存本能，对吧？你不能不知道这片区域是否适合觅食，也不能不知道那是否是个捕食者。不知道是一件危险的事情。我认为更危险的是不去问问题。再次声明，我知道我们在讨论几乎不同类型的问题。有很多未解的问题。一种就是对周围世界的好奇心，学习。我认为人工智能似乎非常可怕，但我们可以开始尝试使用它。一旦我们开始使用并了解它的工作原理，获得一定的熟悉感，有些事情就没那么可怕了。我们之前说过那句老话，从近处看很难去憎恨，对吧？我们可能会对人或情况或所谓的“异类”感到恐惧，但如果我们去问这些人是谁的话，近距离地看就很难憎恨了。
I think it's, I don't know, some old Irish prayer, help me change the things I can change. No, no, no, no, no, you're thinking of the serenity prayer. The serenity, yeah, say it. Will you say it? I can't remember it off top of my head. So the serenity prayer, I'm going to come off like I'm some theologian, but I really just did reasonably deep dive into the serenity prayer in particular. So please do not overestimate my general knowledge of Christian theology, but the serenity prayer, which has been phrase and rephrase the alcoholics anonymous chapters have a pithy version that goes something like God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. That's a sort of shorthand version of a slightly longer serenity prayer that was attributed to this little bit of actually uncertainty as to the provenance of the first serenity prayer, but Reinhold Niebuhrer was a Protestant minister in New England and the time that he was writing and preaching and said to have given the very first serenity prayer in a sermon somewhere was World War Two.
我想这是一句，呃，我不太清楚，某个古老的爱尔兰祈祷词，帮助我改变我能改变的事情。不，不，不，你说的是宁静祷文。宁静祷文，对，说说看。你能说出来吗？我记不清了。呃，我不是神学家，但我确实深入研究过宁静祷文的起源，虽然请不要高估我对基督教神学的了解。宁静祷文，经过许多版本的改写，像戒酒无名小组（AA）就有一个简练的版本，大意是：“上帝赐予我宁静去接受我无法改变的事情，勇气去改变我能够改变的事情，以及智慧去分辨两者的不同。” 这是一个简化的宁静祷文版本，最早的宁静祷文的来源其实有些不确定，但一般认为是由新英格兰的一位新教牧师莱因霍尔德·尼布尔在第二次世界大战期间的一次布道中首次提出的。
And interestingly, this historical context matters because it's usually considered a prayer about accepting the things that you cannot change, right? So a version of this would be like, grant me the serenity to accept the uncertainty of all the questions that I cannot answer, but actually, if you listen to Reinhold Niebuhrer's daughter who was named Elizabeth Sifton, she did not grow up to be a minister herself, but she did grow up to be a very famous editor, and she was also a writer, and she wrote a whole book on her father's serenity prayer and the evolution of this prayer. It's probably, I would argue, the most famous prayer in the world, almost, you know, there are more than two million members of alcoholics anonymous, like it's uttered, you know, weekly.
有趣的是，这段历史背景很重要，因为这个祷告通常被认为是关于接受那些你无法改变的事情，对吗？所以类似的表述可以是：赐予我平静去接受那些我无法回答的问题带来的不确定性。然而，如果你听听莱因霍尔德·尼布尔的女儿伊丽莎白·西夫顿的说法，她虽然没有成为牧师，但成为了一位非常著名的编辑和作家，她为父亲的平静祷告及其演变写了一整本书。我认为这可能是世界上最著名的祷告之一，你知道，光是匿名戒酒会就有超过两百万名成员，几乎每周都会有人念诵。
She said that really, the emphasis is on the second line, the courage to change I can. And that's actually a shorthand version of what Niebuhr originally wrote, which is the courage to change the things that should be changed. And again, World War Two as a context is important because he essentially was saying that we have to be more active. Like if you just like sit around and allow the world to just unfold the way it's unfolding, then you're not going to get the world you want. So in a way, the idea that it's called the serenity prayer, you know, you could also call it the courage prayer.
她说，真正的重点是第二句，“改变我能改变的事情的勇气”。这其实是尼布尔最初所写内容的简化版，原本是“改变那些应该被改变的事情的勇气”。此外，以二战为背景是很重要的，因为他其实是在强调我们需要更加积极主动。如果你只是坐等世界顺其自然地发展，那么你就不会得到你想要的世界。所以，从某种程度上来说，虽然这个被称为平静祷文，其实也可以叫做勇气祷文。
And that would say for all the unanswered questions and all the unfinished tasks that yeah, I mean, you want serenity to accept the things that you can't change. But wow, you sure want a lot of courage to address the questions and finish the tasks that can be addressed and finished. There are people like, oh, Reinhold Niebuhr didn't even write the thing and, you know, they have different interpretations. But I think it's a very important point to make that like even though we're trying to resolve questions, the goal is not to have no questions, right? No, the goals to have a lot of questions.
这句话的意思是：对于所有未解决的问题和未完成的任务，是的，我们需要宁静来接受那些无法改变的事情。但同时，我们也确实需要很多勇气去处理那些可以解决和完成的问题。至于有些人，比如说，莱因霍尔德·尼布尔甚至没有写过这段文字，而且人们对此有不同的理解。但我认为，强调这一点很重要，那就是即使我们在努力解决问题，目标也并不是一个问题都没有，而是要拥有许多问题。
And I would say that so much of life is about what are the questions that we're asking? Are we asking questions about things that we can learn or where we can make a difference? We have the courage to do it. Or are we just wallowing in a mess of questions that cause us to worry about the future all the time while we're not taking any action or doing anything that's important? And so to me, it boils down to, what do we do with unanswered questions? Well, we can go work on them. We can help try to solve them. We can go learn about them. But above all, we have to get good at asking the right questions.
我会说，生活中很多时候关键在于我们问了什么问题。我们是否在询问那些我们能够学习或者能够有所作为的问题，并且有勇气去实践？还是我们只是沉溺于一些让我们担忧未来的问题，却不采取任何行动或者做任何重要的事情？所以对我来说，关键在于我们如何处理那些未解的问题。我们可以去努力解决它们，去学习它们。但最重要的是，我们要学会提出正确的问题。
Because if we're sitting there asking questions that we can't impact or are doing nothing to change, I mean, I've talked with you before about my great friend Ashley Smith and she always says, you know, if you face a problem, you have to say something about it, do something about it or get over it. And I love that idea because with unanswered questions, okay, go learn about it, go do something, have the courage to change it to get the answer. Or I would just say stop worrying so much about it. If it's not something that you can control anyway.
因为如果我们一直在问一些我们无法影响的问题或者什么也不做去改变，那就没有意义。就像我以前和你谈到过的我最好的朋友阿什莉·史密斯说的那样，如果你面对一个问题，你要么说出来，要么采取行动去解决，要么就干脆放下。我非常喜欢这个观点，面对没有答案的问题时，就去学习、去做些什么，并且要有勇气去改变以找出答案。或者我会说，如果这是你无法控制的事情，就别再过于担心了。
I recently read this article by two psychologists, Jessica Alquist and Roy Balmyster. And it's called learning to love uncertainty. And it was just published. It's in my favorite journal, honestly, which is current directions and psychological science. Partly because the questions that are addressed in these little articles in this journal that I love are interesting and partly because they're just short. They don't go on for pages and pages. For sure. The answers are much more likely to be digested. Exactly.
我最近阅读了一篇由两位心理学家杰西卡·奥尔奎斯特和罗伊·鲍迈斯特撰写的文章，标题是《学会热爱不确定性》。这篇文章刚刚发表在我最喜欢的期刊上，这个期刊的名称是《当代心理科学方向》。我喜欢这个期刊部分是因为它涵盖的问题有趣，部分是因为文章篇幅简短，不会冗长乏味。这样一来，读者就更容易消化和理解内容。
So I think the article does a good job of beginning with the fact that in their words, uncertainty has a negative reputation. Not knowing what has happened or is going to happen is typically depicted as undesirable and people often seek to minimize and avoid it. But they go on to say that you can learn to love it. And I don't know if this is what NBA players are doing, but they basically point out that the benefits of being in a state of uncertainty are great.
我认为这篇文章做得很好，开头就提到不确定性通常被认为是消极的。不知道过去发生了什么或未来会发生什么，往往被视为不受欢迎的，人们通常会努力减少和避免这种情况。不过，文章接着指出，你可以学习去喜欢这种不确定性。我不确定这是否就是NBA球员在做的事情，但他们基本上指出处于不确定状态的好处是巨大的。
So for example, it tends to focus your attention. You are more engaged when you're like, oh, wait, what is that? You know, it's the nature of surprise. It's the nature of curiosity. Like if you're sure or something, your mind just wanders off to pay attention to something else. So in making the case for uncertainty being a good thing, that was one of the things that I found convincing. Now, I also want to acknowledge that there are obvious times when uncertainty is the worst.
例如，它倾向于集中你的注意力。当你突然想，“哦，等等，那是什么？” 你会更投入。这就是惊喜的本质，也是好奇心的本质。如果你对某件事很确定，你的思绪就会飘到别的地方去。因此，在说明不确定性是一件好事时，这是让我信服的理由之一。当然，我也承认，有时候不确定性是最糟糕的。
I mean, think about if you have a family member who's lost hiking and the uncertainty of what's happened to them or the uncertainty when you're waiting to get the results back from a medical test that could be quite serious. That's torture. So I'm not saying in all things, uncertainty is important. I think there are those examples for sure where it's awful. And I think that generally speaking, this craving for certainty maybe sometimes puts us in a position where we're not learning as much or making the best decisions or asking the right questions that will get us to a perhaps more optimal state.
我的意思是，想象一下，如果你有一位家人在徒步旅行时失踪了，你无法知道他们发生了什么，或者在等待可能是严重的医疗检查结果时的不确定性。这种不确定性是很折磨人的。所以我并不是说在所有事情上，不确定性都是重要的。我认为在某些情况下，不确定性确实是可怕的。而且，我认为总的来说，我们对确定性的渴望有时候可能让我们处于一种无法充分学习或做出最佳决策的状态，或者没有询问那些能够让我们达到更理想状态的问题。
The one thing I do find helpful when it comes to unanswered questions on things that we can know or that we'll be coming into the future, be that AI or geopolitical events or whatever is taking some piece in the things that I already do know. And I know this sounds cheesy or polyanna-ish or whatever. But like for as crazy as the world is and as anxiety producing as certain things can be, I also take great comfort in again what I do know. I know that I have a family or a chosen family or friends, whatever someone's situation is who love me and who I love.
当谈到那些我们可以了解或未来将要发生但仍未解答的问题时，我发现一个对我有帮助的方法，就是对我已经知道的事情保持一些宁静。不管是关于人工智能、地缘政治事件还是其他事情，这种方法让我心态平和。我知道这听起来可能有些老套或理想化，但尽管世界可能很疯狂，有些事情会让人感到焦虑，我依然从我已经知道的事情中获得了极大的安慰。我知道无论每个人的情况如何，我都有一个家庭、一个选择的家庭或朋友，他们爱我，我也爱他们。
I know that if I want to, I can engage and learn from the greatest minds on the planet. Now we're in the past through books that they've written or through speeches or podcasts, whatever that is, right? In the midst of everything I don't know, there are things that I definitely do. Still to come on No Stupid Questions, what should we do with life's big existential questions? I don't know, I can't figure it out, leave me alone. Now back to Mike and Angela's conversation about unanswered questions.
我知道，如果我愿意，我可以与这个星球上最杰出的人物进行交流并学习。不论是通过他们写的书还是他们的演讲或播客，这些都是可以做到的。即便在我不了解的一切之中，仍有一些是我确实知道的。接下来在《没有愚蠢问题》节目中，我们将讨论如何处理人生中的重大存在性问题。我不知道，我也搞不明白，别管我。现在回到迈克和安吉拉关于未解之问的对话。
I have been reading a couple of books lately on these existential questions and I've been reading two in particular, one better known than the other, partly because one has been published and the other one hasn't. But one of these books is Man Search for Meaning. Now Mike, there's no way that you have not read Victor Frankl's Man Search for Meaning, correct? And read it several times, this goes back to its short and full of great punch. Well, it's not as short as the current directions on psychological science article, but it's very short.
我最近读了几本关于存在主义问题的书，特别是两本，其中一本比另一本更为人知，部分原因是因为一本已经出版，而另一本还没有。其中一本书是《活出生命的意义》。Mike，这本书你一定读过，《活出生命的意义》，对吗？而且可能还读过好几遍。这本书篇幅不长，但充满启发性。虽说没有如今心理科学文章那样简短，但确实很短。
The other book, I'll just say, which is much longer and unpublished, start making sense how existential psychology can help us build meaningful lives in absurd times, is really on the same topic. It's a book by Steve Hina, who's one of my favorite psychologists. He said University of British Columbia, it's coming out in January 2025. But Hina actually references Frankl more than I think two or three dozen times in the book. I mean, really when I say about these two books is that they take as the big question, what is life all about? What is the nature of human existence? Small topics.
另一本书，我简单提一下，是一本篇幅更长且尚未出版的书。它主要探讨存在心理学如何帮助我们在荒诞的时代建立有意义的生活，与前面提到的书实际上是同一个主题。这本书是由我最喜欢的心理学家之一，史蒂夫·希纳所著。他在不列颠哥伦比亚大学工作，书预计将在2025年1月出版。不过，希纳在书中多次引用了弗兰克尔，可能有两三打次。我想说的其实就是，这两本书都在探讨一个重大问题：生活到底是为了什么？人类存在的本质是什么？嗯，真是不简单的小话题。
Yeah, so this is why I want to turn to, when I turn ourselves from like, yeah, it's good to have curiosity about like things that you don't know and like, you know, maybe there's different kinds of things that you can't know, like your three categories. But this is, I guess, that third category, right? Like maybe the big question. Right. And I'm excited to learn from you what the purpose of life is. Well, I am no Victor Frankl, but I am now an amateur devotee.
好的，这就是我想谈论的内容。当我们从好奇心出发，去探索那些我们不了解的东西时，可能会发现一些我们无法知道的事物。就像你所说的三种类型中的第三种，或许是一个很大的问题。对吧？我很期待从你这里了解生命的意义。虽然我不是维克多·弗兰克尔，但我现在是他的一个业余追随者。
So Victor Frankl was a V&E's psychiatrist. I think he was a younger contemporary of Freud. I know, though for a fact, that one of the things that made Frankl important is that he rejected Freud's pleasure principle, which is that, you know, what everyone seeks, like what life is all about is seeking pleasure and really from pain. What Frankl said, and he said this before, he became a captive of the Auschwitz concentration camps. And that is actually what the narrative of man search remaining is.
维克多·弗兰克尔是维也纳的一位精神病学家。他是弗洛伊德的年轻同时代人。不过，我确切知道，让弗兰克尔变得重要的其中一个原因，是他否定了弗洛伊德的快乐原则。弗洛伊德认为，每个人追求的，生活的本质，就是追求快乐和逃避痛苦。而弗兰克尔在成为奥斯维辛集中营的囚徒之前，就提出了他的观点。事实上，这也是他写《活出生命的意义》一书的背景。
It's a story of when he was in the concentration camps and how he survived and what he observed, like seeing all of this through the lens of somebody who is really a therapist and a psychiatrist. And it was before this Auschwitz experience where Frankl said that when he would see people in his care who would come to him, deeply anxious, lonely, depressed, even psychotic, what the cure was in so many cases was not pleasure, was not power, was not prestige. It wasn't even relief from pain. It was meaning.
这是一个关于他在集中营时的故事，他如何活下来，以及他所观察到的事情。通过一个真正的治疗师和精神科医生的视角来看这段经历。在奥斯维辛集中营经历之前，弗兰克尔说，当他看到来找他的患者时，这些人常常深感焦虑、孤独、抑郁，甚至精神失常。在许多情况下，治愈的关键并不是享乐、权力或声望，甚至不是解除痛苦，而是意义。
And he called this approach to therapy, logo therapy, because in Greek logo, like Nike has a logo, all your favorite brands have logos, the word in Greek means meaning. So it was meaning therapy. What we all are seeking is meaning. But just to summarize quick, Freud's basic thing was that we in life seek pleasure above all else. And Frankl saying above all else, we must seek meaning.
他称这种治疗方法为意义疗法，因为在希腊语中，“logo”这个词的意思是“意义”。例如，像耐克这样的品牌有他们的“logo”，你喜欢的品牌都有他们的标识，而在希腊语中，“logo”意味着意义。所以，这实际上是一种意义上的治疗。我们所有人都在寻找的是人生的意义。简单总结一下，弗洛伊德的观点是，人们在人生中首先追求的是快乐。而弗兰克尔则认为我们首先应该追求的是意义。
Yeah, I don't want oversimplify Freud, because Freud had of course, like lots of things to say about the nature of human nature. But he did have the pleasure principle. And he did think that, you know, we have a need for pleasure. And Frankl did reject that. I reread Mansor, Tremening, and was reminded that in the English edition, after he describes his experience in Auschwitz, there is like a second part. It's almost like an extended post script, and it is called logo therapy in a nutshell.
好的，我不想过于简化弗洛伊德的理论，因为弗洛伊德确实对人性的本质有很多看法。不过，他确实提出了“快乐原则”，认为我们有追求快乐的需求。而弗兰克尔对此是持否定态度的。我重读了《活出生命的意义》，想起在英文版中，他在描述自己在奥斯维辛集中营经历后的内容，就像是一个扩展的附录，名为“意义疗法概述”。
And I'll read to you from logo therapy in a nutshell, because you cannot paraphrase, Frankl, like he's too good. So here's Frankl actually quoting Nietzsche, the German philosopher, and says this, there is much wisdom in the words of Nietzsche. He who has a why to live can bear almost any how. And then he goes on a few sentences later to say, thus it can be seen that mental health is based on a certain degree of tension, the tension between what one has already achieved and what one still ought to accomplish, or the gap between what one is and what one should become.
我将为你朗读一本关于意义疗法的书，因为我们无法像弗兰克尔那样出色地改写他的内容。所以在这里，弗兰克尔引用了德国哲学家尼采的话，他说，尼采的话中蕴含着许多智慧：“知道生活意义的人，几乎能够承受任何痛苦。” 他接着在几句话后说到，由此可以看出，心理健康基于一定程度的紧张感，也就是人们已经取得的成就与仍需完成的目标之间的紧张感，或者说是一个人现状与理想状态之间的差距。
He says, what man actually needs is not a tensionless state, but rather the striving and struggling for a worthwhile goal of really chosen task. I mean, the striving or struggling for a worthwhile task, I would just say that I have seen so many people over the course of my life that achieve some sort of goal that they set out for, and it almost destroys them. Give me an example. So you have someone who started a business and sells it and they make a bunch of money, and they thought the goal was build this big business sell it and get rich.
他说，人真正需要的不是一种无压力的状态，而是为了一个有价值的目标或自己真正选择的任务而努力奋斗。我想说的是，在我一生中，我见到过许多人实现了他们设定的某个目标，这几乎毁了他们。比如，有一个人创办了一个公司并把它卖掉，赚了很多钱，他们认为目标是建立这个大企业，把它卖掉然后变得富有。
What I have seen many times is that it's actually the pursuit. I mean, he talks about man's search for meaning. We read in the Declaration of Independence, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right? We fool ourselves into thinking that this destination when I reach this goal, I think it was Matt Damon who talked about he was so grateful that he won an Academy Award so early in his career because he got home from the Oscars with his Academy Award and was like, wait a minute.
我多次看到的是，实际上是追求的过程。我指的是人类对意义的寻求。在《独立宣言》中，我们读到“生命、自由和对幸福的追求”，对吗？我们常常误以为当我们达到某个目标时就会变得快乐。我记得有一次，马特·达蒙提到过他很感激自己在职业生涯初期就赢得了奥斯卡奖，因为在他带着奥斯卡奖回到家后，他发现自己在想：这是怎么回事。
Some people spend their entire career chasing this, and once you have it, you realize it's not anything. It's the pursuit of it. It's the goal. It's the striving that really brings the meaning, not the accomplishment itself. And so I love when you read the striving or struggle for a worthwhile task because it's not the accomplishment is what I've seen over and over. It's the actual process. And if you do summit one mountain, then you better find another mountain to climb next, because otherwise once you hit the peak, it's like, okay, now what?
有些人花费整个职业生涯去追求这个目标，但是一旦你得到了，就会发现它其实没什么。真正有意义的是追求的过程，是目标本身。带来意义的是真正在努力的过程，而不是最终的成就。因此，我很喜欢读到关于为有价值的任务而努力奋斗的内容，因为我一再看到，意义不在于成就本身，而在于实际的过程。如果你已经登上了一座山峰，那么你最好找另一座山去攀登，因为否则当你到达顶峰时，会想，“好吧，然后呢？”
I think this is why it's provocative, right? Because one view would be that like what you're seeking in life is safety and comfort, like a state of Franco would say, like homeostasis, like everything being fine. He was like, no, the optimal state of being is a state of tension. Have this article that I have not yet written? Well, I've half written it with some friends and collaborators.
我觉得这就是为什么它这么有争议，对吧？因为一种观点可能认为，你在生活中追求的是安全和舒适，也就是像Franco所说的那种平衡状态，一切都很好的状态。但他认为，最佳的生活状态其实是一种张力状态。我有一篇文章还没写完？其实我已经和一些朋友和合作者写了一部分。
And I, you know, propose that happiness is the pursuit. When I'm happiest, I am in the pursuit of a goal that's meaningful and it's going well. I'm extremely unhappy why I'm in the pursuit of a goal and it's not going well or worst of all is like, I don't know what the goal is. But I really do believe that it is the state of tension as Franco puts it. And that's why I think he answers the question like, what does life all about?
我认为，幸福在于追求。当我最快乐的时候，就是在追求一个有意义并且进展顺利的目标的时候。而当我追求的目标进展不顺利时，或者更糟糕的是，我不知道目标是什么，我会感到非常不快乐。我确实相信这是一种紧张的状态，正如弗兰科所说的那样。这就是为什么我认为他回答了“生活的意义是什么”这个问题。
Life is about the pursuit of meaning. You know, you can ascertain that meaning might be some version of being connected to and then service to something larger than yourself and people other than yourself. This is why Franco also like the term self-transcendence. It's not about you. Your attention needs to be beyond. But the idea that like what you're seeking in life is not a state of comfort and resolution.
生活是关于寻找意义。你知道，这种意义可能是与比自己更宏大的事物及其他人建立联系并为之服务的某种形式。这也是为什么弗兰科喜欢用“自我超越”这个词。生活不是关于你个人的。你的关注应该超越自身。你在生活中追求的，不是一个舒适和解决一切问题的状态。
It's like the game is ask a question, answer it, ask another question, answer it. But that we're seeking a life of tension, which is exactly the opposite. I think of what most people, including me, would initially imagine. And I have to say that Franco must have been some extraordinary person well before surviving Auschwitz.
这就像是一个游戏：提一个问题，然后回答，再提另一个问题，再回答。然而，我们追求的是一种充满张力的生活，这与大多数人，包括我自己，最初想象的完全相反。不得不说，弗兰科即使在经历奥斯维辛集中营生存下来之前，也一定是个非凡的人。
And later authoring I think like over 30 books. And I mean, lived into his 90s. He was a beloved father, grandfather. But when he was 16 years old, 16, he was already taking university level coursework and his procosity, his sort of like obvious intellect, attracted attention of I think one of his professors. And he was invited to give a little lecture. You know, not in a huge lecture hall.
在之后的创作生涯中，我认为他写了超过30本书。他活到了90多岁，是一位备受爱戴的父亲和祖父。但在他16岁时，他已经在上大学水平的课程。他的才华和明显的智慧吸引了一位教授的注意，并被邀请做一个小型演讲。不是在那种巨大讲堂，而是一个较小的场合。
I think it was some like adult education workshop. But at 16 years old, he delivered a lecture on the meaning of life. I love the audacity of that a little bit. I know, right? And he told the audience, it is we ourselves who must answer the questions that life asks of us. And to these questions, we can respond only by being responsible for our existence.
我猜那可能是类似成人教育的研讨会。但在16岁时，他就发表了一场关于生命意义的演讲。我有点喜欢他这种勇气。是不是？他告诉听众，我们自己必须回答生命向我们提出的问题。而对于这些问题，我们只能通过对自己的存在负责来回应。
What 16 year old stands up in a group of strangers and holds forth in that way. When I was 16 years old, I had some kind of essay assignment. And I wrote a paper whose title was The Meaning of Life. And one of my embarrassments is that when I compare what I wrote to this, you know, profound sort of like life asks us the questions like I wrote. And I think Franco would have vigorously disagreed with me. I wrote when I was 16 that the meaning of life was happiness. I think this like idea that Franco had is that like, no, that is not what you're seeking. You're not seeking pleasure. You're not seeking happiness. And you're not even seeking the permanent resolution of questions. You are seeking more seeking.
哪个16岁的人会在一群陌生人中站出来这样侃侃而谈。当我16岁时，我曾有一个作文作业，我写了一篇题为《生命的意义》的文章。我感到有些尴尬，因为当我回头看自己写的内容时，那些生活向我们提问的深奥思考方式，让我觉得法兰克会强烈不同意我的观点。我16岁时写到生命的意义在于快乐。但我认为法兰克的观点可能是这样的：你在寻找的并不是享乐或快乐，甚至不是问题的永久解决。你所追求的，是不断地探索和寻找。
And I think Franco had this idea that at every moment in our lives, we are being asked like, what are you doing? What are you connected to? What is your work? Who does your work serve? How are you being responsible? So it's a kind of turning of the tables because instead of you being the person who's asking the questions, you are answering the questions that life is asking you. I think it's really beautiful. And I think, you know, there are so many of these existential questions that we face. Obviously, I think maybe the existential question is what's the purpose of life? I think that there are other also kind of unanswerable or maybe unknowable questions. I take comfort in maybe different answers to them.
我觉得弗兰科有这样的想法：在我们生活的每个时刻，我们都在被问到：你在做什么？你与什么有联系？你的工作是什么？你的工作为谁服务？你是如何承担责任的？这就像一种角色互换，因为你不再是提出问题的人，而是回答生活向你提出的问题。我觉得这真的很美。我们面临许多这样的存在性问题。当然，我认为可能最根本的存在性问题是生命的意义是什么。我想，也有其他一些很难回答或者甚至无法知晓的问题。我在这些问题的不同答案中找到了安慰。
So I don't know if you've ever seen Stephen Colbert do kind of, he has these set questions that he'll ask guests. Is this on the Colbert report? I think I'm dating myself by like not knowing what Stephen Colbert has done since the Colbert report? No, I think it's on the late show with Stephen Colbert. Right. Yeah. A very famous clip is when he's asking Keanu Reeves. He asks this question a lot. What do you think happens after we die? Which is one of these big questions we sit with. And he asks Keanu Reeves and Keanu Reeves sits there and pauses and then he says, the people who love us miss us. And to me, it was so profound because I think sometimes it's easy to get really caught up in the big unknowing nature of some of these questions.
我不知道你有没有看过Stephen Colbert主持的一些节目，他有一套固定的问题会问嘉宾。这是在《Colbert报告》上吗？我这样说可能暴露了我的年龄，因为我不知道Stephen Colbert在《Colbert报告》之后都做过些什么节目。哦，不，我想这是在《Stephen Colbert晚间秀》上。对，没错。有一个非常著名的片段是他问基努·里维斯的问题。他经常会问这个问题：你觉得我们死后会发生什么？这算是一个我们经常思考的大问题。他问基努·里维斯这个问题，基努先停顿了一下，然后说，爱我们的人会想念我们。对我来说，这很有深意，因为有时候我们很容易被这些大问题的未知性所困扰。
I at least had never considered that question that way. I think it's been a lesson to me on some of these big existential type questions that there are also just practical everyday answers that bring even a different sense of meaning. When you say the people who love us miss us, it reminds me, okay, I don't know exactly what happens when we die. But I do know that there's a great importance to loving people while we're here. I love, and I think this is silly. So forgive it. But James Taylor has a song where he asks, what is the secret to life? And in the song, the lyrics go, enjoying the passage of time.
我以前从未这样考虑过这个问题。我认为这给我上了一课：对于一些大的存在性问题，其实也有简单而实际的答案，它们带来了不同的意义。当你说爱我们的人会想念我们时，这让我意识到，我并不确切知道我们死后会发生什么，但我知道在我们活着的时候去爱人是非常重要的。我觉得有点傻，请原谅我提到这点。詹姆斯·泰勒有一首歌，他在歌中问，生命的秘密是什么？歌词回答道，享受时间的流逝。
Now, I think I would modify that to more what you've talked about with Frank Cole. Right. Because that sounds like the pleasure principle to me. Maybe when he sings it, it's totally different. And I'm not singing it. But here's what I loved about it was this idea that sometimes the existential questions to me become so big that they're almost like this crushing thing. Like, I don't know. I can't figure it out. Leave me alone. Right. And when I instead think about it in the way James Taylor talked about it, enjoying the passage of time. Again, I would say finding meaning in the passage of time or service to others in the passage of time.
现在，我想我会更倾向于你和弗兰克·科尔讨论过的内容。对我来说，这听起来像是“快乐原则”。也许他唱起来会完全不同，但我不会去唱。不过我喜欢的是，有时候存在性的问题对我来说太过庞大，就像一种压迫感，让我感到无法应对。我不懂，也搞不明白，别烦我。当我换一种方式去思考，比如詹姆斯·泰勒所说的那样，享受时间的流逝，我会说是在时间的流逝中找到意义，或者在时间的流逝中为他人服务。
For some reason, it clicked in me though that like life really is just a series of every single day. And if I can have a moment every single day where I find meaning, where I'm of service to others, whatever that is. And instead of thinking about everything in terms of years and decades and centuries and all these other things, right? But thinking about moments. Yeah. To me, it was a way to just be like, hey, pause. I don't know everything that's going to happen. I don't know the meaning of life. I don't know all of that stuff. But I do know that if I can do something meaningful today, because today's all you have, I know these sounds so trite.
不知为何，我突然明白了，其实生活就是由每一天组成的。而如果我每天都能找到一个有意义的瞬间，无论是为他人服务还是其他什么，那就足够了。与其总是以年、十年、甚至世纪去思考问题，不如专注于当下的时刻。对我来说，这是一种提醒自己暂停的方式。我不知道将来会发生什么，也不知道生命的意义是什么，但我知道如果我今天能做点有意义的事情，因为今天是我们唯一真正拥有的东西，我知道这听起来可能很平常。
I hate even saying them out loud. I feel like I'm like reading a trite book of Brando sings. But does that make sense? I don't know. For me, it kind of changed how I think about the existential. Well, maybe you should restate behind this book. Well, maybe it should come out. And I will. Yeah. Well, it definitely come out. I can resolve that uncertainty. It will definitely come out because I read the galley copies. And I want to say that in a way, it is picking up where Victor Franco left off. There is a science now of the kinds of things that Victor Franco wrote about as someone who saw a lot of individuals in his clinic and made observations.
我甚至讨厌把这些话说出来。我觉得自己像是在读一本陈词滥调的书，但这样说有道理吗？我不确定。对我来说，它多少改变了我对存在主义的看法。也许你应该重新阐述这本书的背景，好吧，也许它应该出版。我一定会继续推动它出版，因为我已经看过初版。我想说，这本书在某种程度上是从维克多·弗兰克尔的思路继续走下去。现在有一种科学在研究维克多·弗兰克尔写到的那些事情，他作为一个在诊所见过许多人的观察者，提出了这些观点。
But now there are dare I say more rigorous, reliable ways of coming to scientific fact. And Steve Hina, as somebody who has kind of mastered the skill set of an experimental psychologist and has thought about human nature for a long time, you know, in this book, he kind of picks up these questions of like what makes life meaningful. And two things in particular, I think, are less known about Victor Franco's philosophy, this logo therapy, and come out in the modern research as well. So I think what most people understand that book to be about is how you can find meaning through your noble response to suffering. You know, if there's a one liner for Mansur's for meaning, that's the one liner that like Chatchy PT would give you. It's like, oh, it's a book about how even in the abyss of despair and being humiliated and tortured, the nobility of your response, like that is a form of meaning.
但是现在，我敢说，有更加严格、可靠的方法来确立科学事实。史蒂夫·希纳，作为掌握实验心理学技能并长时间思考人性的专家，在他的书中探讨了诸如“是什么让生活有意义”之类的问题。我认为，有两点关于维克多·弗兰克尔的哲学特别鲜为人知，即他的意义疗法，它们在现代研究中也有所体现。大多数人理解那本书是关于如何通过崇高地回应痛苦来找到意义。如果要为《活出生命的意义》提供一句话总结，那就是：即使在绝望的深渊中被羞辱和折磨，你对痛苦的高贵回应本身就是一种意义。
But there were two other paths to meaning that Franco laid out. And both of them, Steve Hina writes about and then adds the modern research. And one of them is your close relationships. It's your loving relationships. This is the path that I think Giana Ries was talking about the writer Raymond Carver, the last poem in his last book when he was dying at age 50, and which was inscribed on his tombstone. And did you get what you wanted from this life? Even so, I did. And what did you want to call myself beloved, to feel myself beloved on the earth? And when Franco writes about it, he says that, you know, the reason why this is a path to meaning is that to truly love another person, to truly be connected to that other person, you not only love them unconditionally for who they are, but you love them for who they can be.
但弗朗哥提出了另外两条通往意义的道路。史蒂夫·希纳写了关于这两条道路的内容，并且补充了现代研究。其中之一就是你和他人的亲密关系，也就是你与他人的爱。这是吉安娜·里斯提到的路径，她谈论作家雷蒙德·卡佛，说他在50岁临终时写的最后一本书中的最后一首诗，这诗也刻在了他的墓碑上。诗中的意思是：“你从今生得到了你想要的吗？即便如此，我得到了。那么你想要什么？想要被爱，想要在世上感受到自己被爱。”
弗朗哥在写到这一点时，他说之所以这是一条通往意义的道路，是因为要真正爱一个人，与那个人建立真正的联系，你不仅需要无条件地爱他们的本来面貌，还要爱他们未展现出的潜力。
And so again, I'm always seeing this movement in his work. It's about the future. It's about supporting that person to actualize the potential that they haven't yet actualized to be maybe an improved version of themselves. And then if you read Hina, there's an urgency to this because Hina musters a lot of solid evidence that we're not doing this very well that we're spending less time with each other with the people that we love. And the urgency of like, you know, rediscovering this path to meaning is one thing that I took out of the book that I was like, oh, yeah, that's perennially true, supported by recent science. And also one of their challenges of like our generation.
这段话的大意是：我一直看到他的作品中展现出一种动态变化。他的作品重点在于未来，着眼于帮助人们实现他们尚未实现的潜能，以便成为更好的自己。而如果你阅读Hina的作品，会感受到一种紧迫感，因为Hina提供了大量确凿的证据，表明我们在这方面做得不够好，我们花在与亲人相处的时间越来越少。重新发现通往意义的道路的紧迫性是我从书中感受到的一个重要信息，我意识到这是一个永恒真实的问题，并且得到了最近的科学支持。这也是我们这一代人面临的一个挑战。
I love so much what you just said. Remind me whose grave stone that was? Raymond Carver. He's this like tragic American short story writer. And I say tragic because he lived hard, man. He like was a raging alcoholic and had a lot of challenges in his life. But he wrote beautifully. And that is quite literally the last poem in his last book. And it is the inscription on his tombstone. The reason I love it. Did you get out of life what you wanted? I think one of the other big questions that we face is what do I want? And I think so many people, myself included, can't fully answer that question or haven't fully answered that question.
我非常喜欢你刚才说的那些话。你能提醒我那是谁的墓碑吗？哦，是雷蒙德·卡佛。他是一个挺悲剧的美国短篇小说作家。我说他悲剧，是因为他的人生过得挺艰难。他曾经是个酗酒成性的人，生活中有很多挑战。但他写得非常好。这段文字确实是他最后一本书中的最后一首诗，也是他墓碑上的刻字。我之所以喜欢它，是因为它问了一句：“你从生活中得到了你想要的吗？”我觉得我们面临的另一个重要问题是：“我想要什么？”我想很多人，包括我自己在内，都无法完全回答这个问题，或者还没有完全回答这个问题。
Charles Krauthammer was a journalist who appeared on television and wrote in the Washington Post. He died. I think it was a cancer. And he wrote one final piece in the post. And I have it framed in my home because I think it was so powerful. He said this in the end. He said, I leave this life with no regrets. It was a wonderful life full and complete with the great loves and great endeavors that make it worth living. I'm sad to leave, but I leave with the knowledge that I lived the life that I intended. And Carver sort of says that same thing on his tombstone. And one of the great big questions, I wish I could better answer is what do I want?
查尔斯·克劳索默是一位记者，曾在电视上露面并在《华盛顿邮报》撰稿。他去世了，我记得好像是因为癌症。他在《华盛顿邮报》上撰写了最后一篇文章，我把它装裱起来，挂在家里，因为我觉得这篇文章非常有力量。他在文章的最后写道：“我没有遗憾地离开这个世界。这是一个美好而完整的人生，充满了让生命有意义的伟大爱和伟大事业。我对离开感到难过，但我知道我过上了我想要的生活。” 卡弗的墓碑上也表达了类似的想法。而我一直想更好地回答的一个重大问题是：我究竟想要什么？
And I think that I want to always be striving. I want to find meaning a life that's larger than self and in service to others. I think that's what I want. And I probably need to take time asking myself that question a little better so I can more thoroughly define it because I would love to say like Krauthammer in the end. I'm sad to leave, but I leave with the knowledge that I live the life that I intended. And I think that comes down to asking and answering that question.
我想我一直都想努力追求。我希望找到一种超越自我的人生意义，一种为他人服务的人生。我觉得这就是我想要的。我可能需要花一点时间更好地问自己这个问题，这样才能更全面地定义它，因为我希望能像克劳萨默一样在最后的时候说，我虽然不舍得离开，但我知道我活出了我想要的人生。我觉得这归根结底是要不断地问自己，并找到答案。
So there was a third path to meaning that Franco lays out. It's not how you handle suffering and it's not your connections to your loved ones. It's your work. It's your deeds in modern times. It's like your professional work, but you could also argue like your applications or your volunteer work. But this, of course, it strikes very close to home because this is all I do as a psychologist, right? Like a study achievement. I study what people are striving toward in terms of their goals.
所以，弗兰克提出通往意义的第三条道路。这既不是关于你如何应对痛苦，也不是关于你与所爱之人的联系。这条道路是关于你的工作，是关于你在现代社会中的作为。这可以是你的职业工作，但你也可以认为是你的申请书或是志愿者工作。当然，这和我自身的工作息息相关，因为作为一名心理学家，我的工作就是研究成就。我研究人们在目标方面努力追求的是什么。
I will say that again, you know, if you read Steve Heine's summary of the modern research that when you have professional goals, they are of course themselves rewarding in that you can feel like you are mastering skills that you are competent. But the research is quite clear that when you ask people about their different goals, they offer up lots of reasons for, you know, why they're doing what they're doing. And sometimes those are being more self-sufficient. Sometimes it's about like, oh, I'm trying to be happy. I'm trying to acquire wealth. But it is the purposes that are really other centered, you know, self-transcendent that lead to meaning. And the modern research supports what Franco would say is like, you want to look forward and you want to look outward. You want to be a happier person. Don't work on happiness. Right. Right. You have a lot of problems yourself. You want to solve them. Stop solving your own problems.
我再说一遍，如果你读过史蒂夫·海恩关于现代研究的总结，当你设定职业目标时，这些目标本身就是有回报的，因为你会感到自己在掌握技能，表现出色。不过，研究表明，当人们谈论他们的各种目标时，他们会提出很多理由，比如追求自给自足、幸福或者财富。但是，真正能带来意义的是那些以他人为中心、超越自我的目标。现代研究支持弗兰克的观点：如果你想要更加快乐，就不要专注于追求幸福。如果你有很多问题想要解决，反而不要专注于解决自己的问题。你应该展望未来，关注他人。
Like you cannot have the goal to be a happy person. But you can have the goal to serve someone else and then success and happiness in Sioux. So anyway, there's so much nuance here. But I think to me, when I read Pynas new book, when I read Franco's iconic Mansur True Meaning, it is all about questions that you keep trying to answer. It is about goals, but not that all goals are created equal. So I read these two books wondering whether I'd have my big questions answered. And I actually do think I got answers. And yet, Mike, and I think maybe this is where we've come to, there are no questions whose answers do not lead to yet more questions. And I think Angela Duckworth, that is the beauty of all of this, that there are so many questions or questions that we can explore forever. In all of these things, I just want to say how grateful I am to have had the opportunity to answer so many questions with you and leave all of these conversations with so many more.
像是你不能将成为一个快乐的人设定为目标。但你可以将服务他人作为目标，然后成功和快乐会随之而来。无论如何，这里有很多细微之处。但我认为，当我阅读Pynas的新书和弗兰克尔的经典《活出生命的意义》时，对我来说，这一切都是围绕着你不断尝试解答的问题。这是关于目标，但并不是所有的目标都是平等的。所以我读这两本书时，想知道我是否能找到我心中的大问题的答案。我确实觉得我找到了答案。然而，迈克，我想也许这是我们所得出的结论，没有一个问题的答案不会引出更多的问题。我认为安吉拉·达克沃斯，这就是这一切的美丽之处，有那么多的问题或是可以永远探索的问题。在所有这些事情中，我只是想说我非常感激有机会与你一起回答这么多问题，并在所有这些对话中留下更多的疑问。
And I know I speak for both of us when I just say that we want to thank you, our listeners. You've invited us into your homes and your lives these past several years. You sent in so many questions that we've answered and tried to answer and so many more that we weren't able to get to. And we wanted to just thank you for being willing to go on this amazing journey with us. And to end to sign off, I think we go back to the beginning of this conversation, Mike. What do you do with unanswered questions? You keep asking. Coming up after the break, a fact check of today's episode and reflections about no stupid questions from our listeners.
我想代表我们两人表达感谢，感谢我们的听众们。在过去的几年里，你们邀请我们进入你们的家庭和生活。你们发来了众多的问题，我们已经回答了其中的一些，也努力回答了更多的问题，还有许多问题我们没能来得及解答。我们只想感谢你们愿意和我们一起踏上这段奇妙的旅程。最后，结束时，我想回到这段谈话的开头，迈克，如果有未解决的问题该怎么办？继续问。广告之后，我们将对今天的节目进行事实核查，并分享听众们关于“没有愚蠢的问题”的反思。
And now here's a fact check of today's conversation. Angela speculates that the serenity prayer, which dates from the early 1930s, may be the most famous prayer in the world. That's unlikely. The Lord's Prayer from the Christian Bible, which begins with our father in heaven, hallowed be your name, has been recited and sung across Christian denominations for centuries, and practicing Muslims recite specific verses of the Quran five times a day. So it's possible that an Islamic prayer, or salah, is more well-known globally. The serenity prayer has usually been attributed to the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, but in his research for the new Yale book of quotations, Fred Shapiro found that the prayer was originally composed by a YMCA official named Winifred Weigel, and published in the Woman's Press in 1933. Weigel was a disciple of Niebuhr and was apparently content to let him take the credit.
现在我们来核实一下今天对话中的信息。安吉拉推测始于20世纪30年代初的平静祷文可能是全世界最著名的祷文。这种说法不太可能准确。基督教《圣经》中的主祷文以“我们在天上的父，愿人都尊你的名为圣”开头，几个世纪以来在基督教不同教派中被反复诵读和传唱。此外，穆斯林每天五次背诵《古兰经》的特定经文，因此某个伊斯兰祈祷文，或称礼拜经，更可能在全球范围内更为人知。平静祷文通常归功于神学家莱因霍尔德·尼布尔，但耶鲁大学新引语集的研究者弗雷德·夏皮罗发现，这篇祷文最初是由基督教青年会的一名官员薇妮弗里德·魏格尔于1933年在《女人出版社》上发表的。魏格尔是尼布尔的门徒，似乎对让尼布尔获得这一声誉并不介意。
Also, according to the official Victor Frankl Institute in Vienna, Frankl delivered his first public lecture on the meaning of life at 15, not 16. Later, Angela mispronounces the name of Comedy Central's former new satire show, The Colbert Report. The Tee at the end of report is silent. Apply on Stephen Colbert's surname, which also ends with a silent Tee. Finally, Mike is slightly wrong about the lyrics from James Taylor's 1977 song Secret O Life. It's not what is the secret of life enjoying the passage of time, but rather the secret of life is enjoying the passage of time. That's it for the fact, Jack.
根据维也纳的弗兰克尔官方学院，弗兰克尔在15岁时而不是16岁时发表了他的第一次关于生命意义的公开演讲。此外，安吉拉误读了曾经属于喜剧中心的新闻讽刺节目《The Colbert Report》的名字，"Report"中的“T”是不发音的。这同样适用于史蒂芬·科尔伯特的姓氏，末尾的“T”也不发音。最后，迈克将詹姆斯·泰勒1977年的歌曲《Secret O Life》的歌词稍微记错了，正确的是“生命的秘密在于享受时间的流逝”，而不是“生命的秘密是什么，享受时间的流逝”。就是这些信息啦，Jack。
Before we wrap today's episode and end the show as a whole, let's hear some thoughts and reflections from our NSQ listeners. Hello, Angela and Mike. I've been a long time listener and I'm deeply saddened to see you go. I'm in my 40s and Angela's voice was one of the first I ever heard, literally. I grew up deaf and couldn't listen to any kind of radio or spoken content. After receiving my cochlear implant in my late 30s, I first heard you being interviewed on Freakonomics. I followed you and Stephen to NSQ and have been a devoted listener ever since. Angela, your voice has played a remarkable role in my auditory journey. After my surgery, my audiologist encouraged me to listen to as many podcasts as possible to rehabilitate my hearing. I was so fortunate to discover your voice.
在我们结束今天的节目以及整档节目的最后，让我们来听听来自我们NSQ听众的一些想法和反思。你好，Angela和Mike。我是一名长期听众，对于你们要结束节目我感到非常遗憾。我今年40多岁，Angela的声音是我第一次听到的声音之一，真的。我从小失聪，听不了任何广播或有声内容。在我30多岁末接受人工耳蜗植入手术后，我第一次是在《怪诞经济学》节目中听到你接受采访。之后我一直追随你和Stephen到NSQ，并成为了忠实听众。Angela，你的声音在我的听力康复过程中扮演了重要角色。手术后，听力专家鼓励我多听各种播客以恢复听力。我很幸运能够发现你的声音。
It's pitch and tone perfectly clear to me. Both you and Mike have delivered content that is riveting and all the while your voices helped me reclaim my ability to hear. Thank you. No stupid questions has been such an important part of my life these past couple of years. I've had countless mornings where I'd be in the car with my dad on our way to school and we'd listen to the show together. We'd also send each other links to episodes we thought were especially insightful and it became a shared ritual. Even after moving abroad, that hasn't changed. The show has stayed with me and has become a constant amidst changes in environment and culture. So I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who has made the podcast what it is because there's no doubt that your voices and your insights have shaped the way I think and speak and I'm genuinely grateful for that.
它的语调和音调对我来说非常清楚。你和迈克所提供的内容令人着迷，并且你们的声音帮助我重新找回了倾听的能力。谢谢你们。“没有愚蠢的问题”在过去几年中成为了我生活中非常重要的一部分。在无数个早晨，我和爸爸在开车去学校的路上会一起听这个节目。我们还会互相发送我们认为特别有见解的剧集链接，这成了一种共同的仪式。即使在搬到国外之后，这一点也没有改变。这个节目一直伴随着我，成为我在环境和文化变迁中的一个不变的存在。因此，我想要对所有让这个播客成为现在这样的每一个人表示感谢，因为毫无疑问，你们的声音和见解塑造了我的思维和表达方式，我对此非常感激。
Hi, NSQ. This is Leanne and I want to take a moment to chime in on your last episode. First, thank you. I've used several of your episodes as springboards for my own class discussions, even assigning some of my students to listen so that we can spark some thoughtful dialogue. I can't say I have a single favorite episode but I will definitely miss Rebecca's fact-checking segments. On that note, I can't help but wonder, does Rebecca now have time to fact check my life? That was, respectively, Laurie Husky-Corab, a listener who would like to be known as J, and Leanne Wapet. Thanks to them and everyone who shared their stories, we're so grateful to you for coming along this journey with us.
嗨，NSQ。我是 Leanne，我想就你们的上一期节目发表一些看法。首先，感谢你们。我把你们的好几期节目作为我课堂讨论的起点，甚至会让一些学生去听，以便激发一些深入的对话。我很难挑出一个特别喜欢的节目，但我会非常想念 Rebecca 的事实核查环节。说到这，我不禁想知道，Rebecca 现在是不是有时间来核查我的生活了呢？刚才的留言来自 Laurie Husky-Corab，也是一位希望被称为 J 的听众，还有 Leanne Wapet。感谢他们以及所有分享故事的人，非常感激你们一路上的陪伴。
And Leanne, feel free to reach out to me about fact-checking your life on a freelance basis. No stupid questions is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which also includes Freakonomics Radio, People I Mostly Admire, and the Economics of Everyday Things. All our shows are produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. The senior producer of the show is me, Rebecca Lee Douglas, and Lear Faudic is our production associate. This episode was mixed by Greg Griffin with help from Jason Gambro. We had research assistants from Daniel Moritz Rapson. Our theme song was composed by Luis Guerra. To learn more or to read episode transcripts, visit Freakonomics.com slash NSQ. Thanks for listening.
当然可以联系我做自由职业的事实核查，Leanne。No Stupid Questions（没有愚蠢的问题）是Freakonomics Radio Network（怪诞经济学广播网络）的一部分，该网络还包括怪诞经济学广播、我特别欣赏的人，以及日常经济学。我们所有的节目都由Stitcher和Renbud Radio制作。这个节目的高级制作人是我，Rebecca Lee Douglas，制作助理是Lear Faudic。本集由Greg Griffin负责混音，并由Jason Gambro协助。我们的研究助理来自Daniel Moritz Rapson。我们的主题曲由Luis Guerra作曲。要了解更多信息或阅读节目文本，请访问Freakonomics.com/NSQ。感谢收听。
From the beginning more than 200 episodes. So if you never heard those earlier episodes, they will be brand new to you, and if you have heard them, well, you will be able to sing along, just like Rocky Horror or Wicked. We'll be listening for you. That's starting next week. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything. Stitcher.
从一开始就有超过200集节目。因此，如果你以前没听过这些早期的节目，它们对你来说将是全新的；如果你听过，那你就可以像《洛基恐怖秀》或《女巫前传》一样跟着一起唱了。我们期待着你的收听。这将从下周开始。在那之前，请照顾好自己，如果可以的话，也关心一下其他人。 Freakonomics Radio Network，一个揭示一切隐秘面的一张秀节目，Stitcher。