The Battle for Paramount Pictures | Reinventing an Empire | 5
发布时间 2022-08-31 07:01:00 来源
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Hey, I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. There was a time when just about every mogul in Hollywood had his eye on Paramount Pictures. Competing for the movie studio like it was the last cookie in the jar. But can you blame them? With smash hits like Top Gun?
嘿，我是大卫·布朗，这是商业战争。曾经有一段时期，好莱坞几乎每位大亨都盯着派拉蒙电影公司。像争夺罐子里最后一块饼干一样竞争这家电影制作公司。但你能怪他们吗？有着像《壮志凌云》这样的大热电影？
There's been 300. Go get them, ma'am. I'm going for Mr. Lock. It's pretty scary this guy out here. Grease? Some love it had me a blast. And of course, the Godfather. I just don't ask what I'm supposed to say. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me Godfather.
有300个了。小姐，请去拿它们。我去找Lock先生。这个人真的很可怕。油脂？有些人喜欢它，让我感受到了一种愉悦。当然，还有教父。我只是不知道我应该说些什么。你不主动给我友谊，甚至不想称呼我教父。
The historic studio was the talk of the town, but its chairman wouldn't sell. Ultimately, it was by a comm that made Paramount an offer it couldn't refuse. And in 1994, the tumultuous deal was done. But with the rise of streaming services, changing the landscape of film and TV, Paramount has been on shaky ground lately.
那个历史悠久的工作室一度成为镇上谈论的话题，但是它的主席不肯出售。最终，在一份无法拒绝的报价的促使下，帕拉蒙公司进行了一笔动荡不安的交易，并在1994年的时候完成了。但是，随着流媒体服务的兴起，改变了电影和电视的格局，帕拉蒙最近处于不稳定的状态。
Today, we'll be joined by Matt Bellany, founding member of the Entertainment Newsletter Puck and host of the Ringer Podcast, The Town. Matt will bring us the scoop on present day Paramount and whether this summer's smash hit Top Gun Maverick can bring them out of the danger zone.
今天我们将与梅特·贝尔尼（Matt Bellany）一起，在娱乐新闻通讯“Puck”的创始成员和“The Town”访谈节目的主持人中，他将向我们介绍现代派拉蒙（Paramount）的最新动态，以及本夏季的打击电影《壮志凌云：独行侠》能否帮助他们摆脱危险区。
But first, we're going to plop down in front of the boob tube and take a peek into the past with former Viacom Television Executive Doug Herzog. He was there when Viacom was plotting its takeover of Paramount Pictures, working in Viacom's booming cable TV division. Doug rose through the ranks, eventually overseeing MTV, the H1 Comedy Central, and other iconic cable channels. Today, he co-hosts Basic, a podcast about the time when cable was cool.
首先，我们将坐在电视机前，通过前维亚康姆电视执行官道格·赫尔佐格，一起回顾过去。当维亚康姆计划收购派拉蒙影业时，他正在维亚康姆蓬勃发展的有线电视部门工作。道格一路晋升，最终监督了MTV、H1喜剧中心和其他标志性的有线频道。今天，他是Basic的联合主持人，这是一个关于有线电视时代的播客。
Doug joins us now to bring us tales from the two Doug Herzog. Welcome to Business Wars. Thank you for having me.
道格现在加入我们，为我们带来双道格·赫尔佐格的故事。欢迎来到商业战争。非常感谢邀请我。
In the 80s, seemed like MTV was the hottest thing around it. I understand that you joined the company pretty early in your career. What were you doing there?
在80年代，MTV似乎是最红的事物。我知道你职业生涯早期就加入了该公司。你在那里做什么的？
Well, it really was the hottest thing around it. It's kind of hard to explain how important and big and culturally impactful MTV was back then. I always tell my kids, it's Spotify, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, all rolled into one Snapchat. It's just hard to wrap your head around just how big it was.
哦，MTV真的是那个时代最热门的东西。很难解释当时MTV有多么重要、大、文化影响力有多大。我总是告诉我的孩子们，它是Spotify、TikTok、Twitter、YouTube的组合版，还有Snapchat。只是很难理解它有多么庞大。
I went there to start the MTV News Department in 1984. They had the MTV launch in 1981. I would say I got there at the height of the music video era, the very first era when they were actually playing music videos 24 hours a day. 1984 was the summer of Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA. Born in the USA. Prince is Purple Rain. Purple Rain. Purple Rain. Michael Jackson's Thriller. It was like the Mount Rushmore of Music video.
1984年，我去那里创建MTV新闻部门。他们在1981年推出了MTV。我可以说我在音乐视频时代的顶峰到达那里，那是他们实际上每天24小时播放音乐视频的第一个时代。1984年是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀(Bruce Springsteen)的《出生于美国》的夏天。出生于美国。王子的《紫雨》。紫雨。紫雨。迈克尔·杰克逊的《惊魂记》。它就像音乐视频的午后时光。
I can't imagine what it must have been like to work at MTV, which was sort of the pinnacle of pop culture at that time. It must have been like a dream come true for you.
我无法想象当时在MTV工作是什么样子。那可是当时流行文化的顶峰。对你来说，这一定是美梦成真了吧。
Literally was a dream come true. I loved music. I loved television. MTV didn't exist the day I went to college. So it wasn't on my radar at all. And I remember as soon as it started, I was like, I want to work. And it took me about three years to make my way in.
这真的是一个梦想成真。我喜欢音乐，喜欢电视。我上大学那天 MTV 还不存在，所以它完全没有出现在我的视野里。我记得一开始就想要从事这个行业，但我花了大约三年时间才进入这个领域。
Take me back now. Comedy Central. You were president of Comedy Central in what, 95 or something like that?
现在带我回去， 去看喜剧中心。你在喜剧中心当总裁，是在95年左右吧？
Yeah, so I was at MTV from 1984 to 95. And then I went over to Comedy Central, which at the time was a joint venture between HBO and MTV or more broadly via Common Time World.
嗯，我从1984年到95年都在MTV工作。之后我跳槽到的是Comedy Central。当时它是HBO和MTV之间的合资项目，或者更广泛地说是由Common Time World来支持的。
What were you thinking as some of these pitches came across your desk for some of these shows that would become household names eventually?
当这些节目的部分提案呈现在您的桌子上时，您当时有什么想法？这些节目最终会成为家喻户晓的名字。
You know, the most notable one, and I could tell you what I was thinking, is when South Park came in. You know, so South Park had started as this little VHS tape.
你知道的，最引人注目的一个，我可以告诉你我当时在想什么，那就是南方公园上演的时候。南方公园一开始只是一盘小小的VHS录像带。
It was made by Tray Park and Matt Stone for a guy named Brian Grayden. At the time, he was running sort of this development podded fox. And he had seen some work they had done. And this is 1995, 1996. He had asked him to create a video Christmas card that he could send to people on VHS, which is what they did.
这个是Tray Park和Matt Stone为Brian Grayden这个人制作的。当时，他在管理一个名为“development podded fox”的项目，并见过他们完成的工作。那是在1995年到1996年之间。他让他们制作了一个可以用VHS录像机发送给人们的圣诞贺卡，结果就是这个视频。
So they created the now famous Spirit of Christmas, also known as Jesus versus Santa. And it went viral. People started just making copies of it. Oh, I remember. There was the internet really wasn't a thing yet. So it was getting passed around town and then one of our development executives, a great woman named Debbie Liebling, showed it to me.
他们创造了如今有名的“圣诞之灵”，也称为“耶稣与圣诞老人”。然后，它迅速传播开来。人们开始复制它。哦，我记得，那时候互联网还没流行起来。所以，它是在城里口耳相传，然后我们的一名开发执行官，一个伟大的女人叫黛比·利布灵，给我展示了它。
And I remember watching it and thinking it was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen. It really blew my mind. I said, you know, I don't think they can do that, which by the way, they ended up doing. But I think we should be in business with these guys and we went out and we signed them. And they're about to celebrate their 25th anniversary. That's crazy. That's it.
我记得看着那个东西时，觉得它是我见过最有趣的事情之一。它真的让我大开眼界。我说，你知道吗，我不认为他们能做到那样的事情，顺便说一下，他们最终做到了。但是我认为我们应该与这些家伙合作，于是我们出去签了他们。他们即将庆祝他们的25周年纪念。真是疯狂。就是这样。
And here's what I could tell you. I thought it was crazy funny and really edgy and a little dangerous, maybe too dangerous.
然后我能告诉你的是，我觉得那真是疯狂好笑、真的前卫，有一点危险，可能太危险了。
But at the time, Comedy Central was probably in about 35 million homes and our next big goal was to get to 40, you know, and I thought, well, if it doesn't work at the very least, we'll get attention. And one of the things we needed most at Comedy Central was just attention.
当时，Comedy Central 在大约3500万户家庭中播出，我们的下一个重要目标是达到4000万。我认为，即使宣传不成功，我们至少会得到关注。Comedy Central 最需要的是注意力。
But it turned out that it did work and it worked in a big way and it turned out to be Grand Slam. Because on the day we get attention, we got a lot of people watching as well and talking about us and it really changed everything.
但事实证明它确实奏效了，而且效果非常显著，结果成为了大满贯。因为在我们获得关注的那一天，我们同时吸引了许多人观看和谈论，这改变了一切。
We're going to take a short break here. We're looking back on Viacom in the golden age of cable and paramount with Doug Herzog. He is a former Viacom executive. You're listening to a special edition of Business Wars. Stay with us.
我们打算在这里休息一会儿。我们与Doug Herzog一起回顾维亚康姆在有线电视和派拉蒙黄金年代的情况。他曾是一名维亚康姆的高管。你正在收听《商业战争》的特别版节目。请继续关注我们。
Hi, I'm Sarah Haggi, co-host of Wonderree's podcast, Scample Inswers. In our recent two-part series, Three Weddings and a Funeral, we dive into the story of a German con man who built an entire life on fake names, lies, and schemes, and the unlikely true kind twist that brought this decades-long charade crashing down. Listen to Scample Inswers on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨，我是Sarah Haggi，Wonderree播客节目《Scample Inswers》的共同主持人。在我们最近的两集节目《三个婚礼和一场葬礼》中，我们深入探讨了一个德国骗子建立了一整个虚假的生活，使用伪名、谎言和计划，以及不太可能的真实转折，使这个数十年的骗局崩溃。请在亚马逊音乐或其他您获取播客的地方收听《Scample Inswers》。
Welcome back to Business Wars. Our guest today is former Viacom exec Doug Herzog. He was working for the company at the time of the paramount acquisition in the early 90s.
欢迎回到《商战》节目。今天我们有来自 Viacom 公司的前高管 Doug Herzog 做客。他在上世纪90年代，也就是帕拉蒙特收购时期，正在该公司工作。
Doug, the timeline of our season on the battle for Paramount pretty much runs parallel with your career at MTV.
Doug，我们在Paramount的战斗的赛季时间轴几乎与你在MTV的职业生涯平行。
Talking about the late 80s, early 90s, a lot of people were eyeing Paramount, including Biacom, of course. Was there something that Paramount had other than just sort of generalized synergy with Hollywood that made it what so many media companies wanted at the time?
谈到80年代末90年代初，许多人都在关注派拉蒙，当然包括维亚康姆。当时，除了与好莱坞的一般协同作用外，有没有什么使派拉蒙成为众多媒体公司追捧的东西？
Well, Paramount's one of the great Hollywood studios and has a great history and a great library, Sumner Redstone, really has had his eye on a movie studio always and wanted to grow the company. Synergy was the 90s buzzword and the idea is that you're going to take all these great brands and make MTV branded movies and Nickelodeon branded movies, etc., etc., and maybe vice versa. Maybe we'd have the opportunity to dig into their library and make TV shows out of that. It never really got all the way there.
嗯，派拉蒙是好莱坞最伟大的电影公司之一，有着悠久的历史和丰富的资料库。萨姆纳·雷德斯通一直想让公司扩大规模，成为电影领域的佼佼者。90年代的流行词是“协同效应”，这意味着我们将开发MTV品牌电影、尼克儿品牌电影等等，或者反过来。也许我们有机会挖掘他们的资料库，制作电视节目。但这些计划从未真正实现。
And there were a lot of bloody noses and lips after the fight ended. I guess Barry Diller and John Malone, a bunch of people were circling.
打斗结束后，有很多人的鼻子和嘴唇都流了血。我猜巴里·迪勒和约翰·马龙等一群人在旁观。
But you look at the number of mergers and acquisitions that were happening in the entertainment industry at that time. Putting aside the idea of Synergy, it's hard to overlook the question of whether or not some of the larger-than-life personalities angling for these movie companies, especially, that that was a kind of a crown jewel. That there was a, right? There's something personal.
但你看看当时娱乐产业中正在发生的合并和收购数量。暂且放下协同效应的想法，很难忽视一个问题，那就是一些大到超乎寻常的明星角逐这些电影公司，尤其是那些被视为皇冠之珠的公司。这其中是有些个人情感成分的。
Well, always personal. I mean, these guys, you know, they don't know how to do any other way. And I've worked for all of them. I mean, over the course of my career, I have worked for Rupert Murdock, Peter Ternan, Barry Diller, Jeff Buchist, Tom Freston, Jeffy Cancer. I mean, you name it. I've worked from all.
"嗯，总是很个人化啊。我的意思是，这些人，你懂的，他们不知道如何以其他方式做事。而我曾为他们所有人工作过。我是说，在我的职业生涯中，我曾为鲁珀特·默多克、彼得·特纳、巴里·迪勒、杰夫·布基斯特、汤姆·弗雷斯顿、杰夫·坎勒等人工作过。你说出来，我都曾工作过。"
The interesting thing to me always was this sort of show business, you know, kind of traditional pecking order, right? Where movies was number one, right? You know, TV was number two, but like kind of a sorry second sister. And then there was the music business. And then within the TV business, there was pecking order, right? There was broadcast, premium, then cable, right? We always had a chip on our shoulder, that cable.
对我来说有趣的一点就是这种秀业的等级，你懂的，一种传统的排名方式，对吧？电影排第一，你知道的，电视是第二，但是有点遗憾成为这个不太起眼的姐姐。然后是音乐行业。在电视业内部，还有一个等级，对吧？广播、付费、有线电视，我们总是觉得有线电视有点不服。
But, you know, the allure of the movies and the allure of running a studio is just something that remains like the golden egg to a lot of folks.
然而，你知道，电影的诱惑和经营制片厂的诱惑对很多人来说就像是黄金蛋一样，仍然具有吸引力。
I watched and they will remain nameless. I watched a lot of respected business leaders, folks who took over, you know, some of these major media companies who I thought, well, you know, they're not going to, they're going to understand that, you know, it's all about TV. And the movies really don't matter. Like on a good year, a movie studio, you know, makes, you know, a couple of hundred million dollars on a bad year. They lose a couple hundred million dollars.
我看着很多很有威望的商业领袖，他们接管了一些大媒体公司，我以为他们会明白，你懂的，这都是关于电视的。电影真的不重要。在一个好年份，电影工作室可能赚几亿美元，在一个糟糕的年份，他们可能会亏损几亿美元。他们都不会被具体列出来的。
Whereas, you know, the TV business, you know, a pretty clean cable, we're growing 20% every year back then. And sure enough, you'd watch these guys take over these companies and they just get Google ID for the movie studio. And they can't take their eyes off. They can't, they can't, they can't help themselves. They're running out there for premieres. And it's all about the studio. Whereas, you know, like I said, the straw that stirs the drink was always the cable stuff.
你知道，电视业务很简单，就是提供干净的电缆服务，我们曾经每年增长20％。但结果，你会看到这些人接管了这些公司，他们只是为了电影工作室提供Google ID。他们注意力无法转移。他们蜂拥着去观看首映式，所有人都关注工作室。但正如我说的，真正带动整个行业的是电缆部分。
Something that's also striking though is that a lot of folks who might have no reason to know a name like Sumner Redstone or Barry Diller, they almost became household names. And I think in some places they did become a household.
还有一件引人注目的事情是，很多可能没有理由了解Sumner Redstone或Barry Diller这样名字的人，他们几乎成为家喻户晓的人物。我认为在某些地方他们确实成为了家喻户晓的人物。
I think, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. And I'm wondering how prevalent these figures were in your career.. I mean, how much power did a mogul really wield?
我想，对啊。嗯，我认为那是对的。我想知道这些大佬在你的职业生涯中有多常见...我的意思是，一个大亨实际上拥有多少权力？
Well, so it's so funny, I could have I come probably 25 years old and probably 20 and change those for Sumner. I mean, I was there a little bit before Sumner. And I was a, you know, when I left I come, I was a pretty senior executive.
嗯，所以这很有趣，可能我当时已经二十五岁了，还有二十岁多一点，就能代替Sumner。我的意思是，在Sumner之前，我在那里工作了一段时间。当我离开那里时，我是一位相当资深的高管。
I used to make this joke that if you put me in front of Sumner Redstone, along with two other guys, he would not be able to pick me out out out of the lineup. I used to, I used to always go up to him every time I saw him and I put my hand on it and say, hi Sumner, it's Doug Herzog. And then somebody had whispered, it's Doug Herzog. In his ear. And then he'd go, he'd go, I know who you are. And I rarely saw Sumner Redstone.
我曾经开过一个玩笑，说如果你把我和其他两个人放在Sumner Redstone面前，他无法在阵容中挑选出我。每次我看到他时，我总是走上前去，把我的手放在他的手上，说：嗨，Sumner，我是Doug Herzog。然后有人在他耳边轻声说：这是Doug Herzog。然后他会说：我知道你是谁。我很少见到Sumner Redstone。
He did not get involved in the day-to-day of MTV that was left to folks like Tom Preston and Judy McGrath and myself and Van Toffler and, you know, that group. And what was the buzz around Sumner Redstone at the time? I mean, he was what? We're close to seven years old.
他没有参与 MTV 的日常事务，那些工作留给像汤姆·普雷斯顿、朱迪·麦格雷斯和我自己、范·托夫勒以及那一群人。当时关于萨姆纳·雷德斯通的话题是什么？我想说，我们差不多七岁了。
He was an old man there. Yeah, he was, he was always old. He was old, you know, he was old before he was old. But a clearly, widely, widely businessman driven smart, you know, and, and look, you know, he was, you know, at the end of the day, he was the guy who sat atop Viacom when it was the envy of its peers. Well, so he, so you gotta give him credit.
他在那儿时是个老人。是的，他一直都老了。他很老，你知道吗，他在老之前就已经很老了。但是他显然是一位非常聪明、很有商业头脑的商人，你知道的，在 Viacom 在同行中很受羡慕的时候，他是那个坐在最高处的人。所以，你得承认他有功劳。
Who would have been considered more dangerous? Sumner Redstone or Barry Diller at the times?
在那时，史马纳·雷德斯通和巴里·迪勒中，哪一个被认为更危险？
Well, it's a, you know, again, you're talking two different flavors. You know, when I worked for Barry, he was, you know, this was at USA Network. He had USA Films. And Barry was a very hands on guy. And he would kind of come in, in and out, which got frustrating. But, you know, look, he understood the content side of the business. He understood the talent side of the business. And he wanted to be involved.
嗯，你知道的，这是两种不同的口味。我在USA Network为Barry工作时，他有USA Films。Barry是一个非常亲自动手的人。他经常进进出出，这让人感到沮丧。但你知道的，他了解业务的内容方面和人才方面。他想要参与其中。
And he certainly had a point of view about that. And, honestly, everything else. So his presence was always felt. And, and even if he wasn't in the room, he, like he loomed. And I almost, when I got to working for Barry, couldn't believe how much in the details. He would get on things. Same with Jeffrey Katzenberg, incredibly hands on, right on top of you. And on top of everything that's going on to the, you wouldn't believe what he, you know, is able to pay attention to.
他对此肯定有自己的观点。还有，说实话，其他所有事情也是如此。所以他的存在总是被感受到。而且，即使他不在房间里，他还是像存在着一样。当我开始为巴里工作时，我几乎无法相信他会如此注重细节。杰弗瑞·卡岑伯格也一样，极其亲手操作，时时刻刻关注着你。他关注的事情之多，你简直无法想象。
When I was at Fox, you know, I was president of the Fox Network from like a minute and a half. I think I said the land speed record. But being the president of the Fox Network was like being, you know, the New York Yankees manager under George Dimebrenner. They kind of came and went fast. So, Rupert, you know, traditionally had tortured all the network presidents prior to me. You know, I Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch.
我在Fox工作时，你知道，我曾经是Fox网络的总裁，但这只持续了1分钟半左右。我想我打破了陆地速度纪录。但当Fox网络的总裁就像是在George Dimebrenner的领导下担任纽约洋基队经理。他们经常快速更替。所以，你知道，传统上，鲁珀特折磨了我之前的所有网络总裁。你知道，我指的是鲁珀特·默多克。鲁珀特·默多克。
So I think when I was there, it was either one of two things or both. A, he sends quickly, I wasn't going to last. Or B, he was just starting to court Wendy Deng. And I thought to myself, well, maybe he's decided he needs to spend a little time on his personal life and stop torturing. Hey, I just give up something. So maybe it's torturing the network president every day. I only heard from, I would only hear from Rupert every once in a while in my very short time at Fox.
我想，在我在那儿的时候，可能是两种情况中的一种或两种都有。一种是，他快速派遣我，因为我无法持久。另一种可能是他刚刚开始追求邓文迪。我想，也许他已经决定需要花一些时间在个人生活上，停止对人们的折磨。我只是放弃了一些东西。也许每天折磨网络总裁就是一种煎熬吧。我在福克斯短暂的时间里只偶尔听到鲁伯特的消息。
Any tension between the TV and the film divisions?
电视和电影部门之间有任何紧张关系吗？如果需要，我可以换种说法。
Oh, yeah. A ton, really. There were some very, very, very contentious meetings. Because, you know, part of the thing was, you know, we wanted to be in the movie business. Like, it seemed glamorous and we had a great brand. And I'm like, we should make movies. And, you know, they were like, well, and the parameter was a little bit like, yeah, well, we decide what movies get made. So just sell down kids. And then when we would agree on something, there was always this, how do you actually make money if you're, if you're us, right? Because the studio, you know, how these studio deals work. They make all the money and everybody else doesn't. So there was always, there's always this push and pull over how to split up whatever profits there should be.
哦，是啊，很多啊。曾经有一些非常非常非常有争议的会议。因为嘛，我们想进入电影行业。它似乎很光彩，而我们的品牌很棒。所以我就说，我们应该拍电影。然后他们就说，嗯，但是参数有点像，是的，我们决定哪些电影要拍摄。所以，只管卖东西给孩子们吧。然后当我们就某个事情达成协议时，总是有疑问，如果你是我们，你如何真正赚钱呢？因为电影公司的交易方式你知道的。他们赚的都是钱，其他人都不是赚的。所以总是关于如何分配应该有的利润的抵触。
And then also how to reward people when it came to bonus time. And we always felt like we were always doing favorite. So the studio would have a big release that had nothing to do with us. They would buy a lot of time, you know, on the network. But then they would also look for a lot of free promotional time from the networks. So we were always helping them out and trying to help their movies, you know, be hits and feel them like we weren't getting enough credit for that. But it did get contentious.
然后，当支付奖金的时候，我们也要学会如何给员工回报。我们总是感觉我们总是在偏袒某些人。因此，影片公司会推出一部与我们无关的重大作品，他们会在电视网络上购买了大量时间。但是，他们也会从网络寻找许多免费的宣传时间。所以，我们总是在帮助他们，努力让他们的电影成为热门，却感觉我们没有得到足够的荣誉。但这确实变得棘手了。
You know, we have covered Blockbuster versus Netflix here on Business Wars. And one of the things that struck me when we were talking about that as a series was how many points there were at which Blockbuster could have looked more closely at Netflix vision. And instead of copying Netflix, got in the head of Netflix. But it never really happened.
你知道的，我们在商战节目中探讨了Blockbuster对Netflix的竞争。当我们将其作为一个系列讨论时，有一件事情让我印象深刻：在很多关键点上，Blockbuster都有机会更加深入地了解Netflix的愿景。但他们没有模仿Netflix，也没有理解它们的想法。可是，这从未真正发生过。
It was all about the kind of story.. Yeah, please. So you know, Blockbuster at one point was in the Viacom family. Yeah, right. Exactly. So when we bought Paramount, we bought Blockbuster. So I remember going down there. This is how to be the early 90s. I was still at MTV.
这一切都关乎故事的类型... 是的，请你知道，在某个时候，Blockbuster在维亚康姆集团旗下。是的，确实如此。所以当我们购买派拉蒙公司时，我们也买了Blockbuster。我记得去那里时，这是90年代初期。那时我还在MTV工作。
So we flew down to Florida to meet with their CEO. And this was like a sort of a two day thing. We're like one day they were going to present to us. And then the next day we would present to them. And like the third day, we would start discussing, of course, synergies.
我们飞到佛罗里达州与他们的首席执行官会面。这就像是一件持续两天的事情。第一天，他们向我们做了一个演示。第二天，我们会向他们演示。第三天，我们会开始讨论协同效应。
So they do their presentation. And I remember it was the first time I'd ever heard like a couple of, you know, sort of buzzwords that are now sort of coming like bricks and mortar. They were talking about getting out of the bricks and mortar business. In fact, they were like trying to convince Nickelodeon.
所以他们进行了演讲。我记得那是我第一次听到一些现在已经成为大热词的话语，比如实体店。他们正在谈论退出实体店生意。事实上，他们试图说服尼克儿童频道。
They should put some of those kids. I remember those kids play places, you know, dig in the 90s, you know. They were sort of convincing them they should take over some of their leases and that kind of thing. But they were already talking about getting out of brick and mortar. And then they started talking about the future.
他们应该把那些孩子们照顾好。我还记得那些孩子玩的场所，你知道，在90年代挖掘的那种。他们当时正在说服他们接管一些租约之类的东西。但他们已经在考虑放弃实体店了。然后他们开始谈论未来。
And how one day, movies would be delivered to your computer at home. You know, even the idea of everybody having a computer in their home, I think was barely a thing yet. And so what they were talking about sounded very futuristic. And, you know, very much down the road. But my point is they could see it coming. And they still couldn't get there.
而有一天，电影会被送到你在家中的电脑上。你知道，甚至在家里拥有电脑的想法，我觉得那时还很新奇。所以他们所说的听起来非常未来，非常遥远。但是我的观点是，他们能看到未来，但他们仍然无法到达那个点。
That's interesting because I wonder how much of it was because of a feeling that this is kind of science fiction. We still don't, you know, haven't seen the manifestation of computers everywhere, you know. Yeah, or it's a little bit like maybe what's happening right now with like, say, broadcast and cable and streaming.
这很有趣，因为我想知道其中有多少是因为产生了一种科幻小说的感觉。你知道，我们到现在还没有看到电脑在到处占领的表现。嗯，或许现在正在发生的，有点像广播、有线电视和流媒体的情况。
Like the broadcasters in the cable folk could see streaming coming. I was there. I could tell you. We saw it coming. But we didn't really do anything about it because we were a little arrogant about our business.
就像有线电视广播员能预见流媒体的到来一样，我也是在那里看到的。我可以告诉你，我们看到了它的到来。但我们并没有真正采取任何行动，因为我们对我们的业务有些傲慢。
And look, what you're seeing now is that struggle to, you know, wind down one business and then really invest in another that's not quite there yet. But, you know, you're, by the way, those, you know, look for all talks of the demise of cable television. They're still making plenty of money back there. It's not going away tomorrow, right?
你看，现在你所看到的是为了让一个业务平稳落地，然后真正投资另一家公司，但它还没有完全到位的挣扎。不过，顺便说一句，尽管有人谈论有线电视的终结，但它们仍在那里赚着大量的钱。它不会在明天消失，对吧？
So, um, I think, you know, companies sometimes get stuck. They got stockholders and a stock price. And they're just, you know, they're trying to hold it together and moving in a new direction means taking some big chances. And, you know, you can't always get those lines.
嗯，我认为你知道公司有时会陷入困境。他们有股东和股价。他们只是试图维持现状，而朝一个新方向前进意味着要冒一些大的风险。你知道的，你不总是能够得到那些机会。
Do you think that cable could be poised for reinvention? I'm wondering if some visionary out there could see a way to keep it sustained? I think there's an opportunity for something cable-like in the streaming world. I mean, this is just me. Now you're talking to a, an old cable guy.
你认为有可能重新创新有线电视吗？我在想是否有一些具有远见卓识的人能够找到一种方法来保持它的持续性？我认为在流媒体世界中有一个类似于有线电视的机会。我是指，这只是我的想法。现在你正在和一个有经验的老有线电视员工交谈。
But, you know, as a consumer, I look at Netflix, Disney, Warner. And I think of them as, you know, Walmart, Kmart, Target, right? Big giant box stores where you can get anything you would ever need. I also find them very hard to navigate as a consumer.
不过，你知道的，作为消费者，我会看着Netflix、Disney和Warner这些品牌，把它们比作沃尔玛、Kmart和Target这些大型连锁超市，因为在这些地方你可以找到所需的任何东西。但我发现作为消费者，这些品牌的交互、导航难度很大。
You know, in the cable world, you knew where to go for comedy, you knew where to go for sports, you knew where to go for news, you know, where to go for documentaries, you knew where to go for reality, you know, whatever it was. And I think it's a lot harder sometimes in streaming.
你知道，在电视世界里，你知道哪里可以看搞笑节目，哪里可以看体育节目，哪里可以看新闻，你知道，哪里可以看纪录片，你知道哪里可以看真人秀，你知道，无论是什么类型的节目。但我认为，在流媒体平台上有时会更困难些。
But I don't know. I think there's an opportunity out there as these streamers get bigger and broader and harder to navigate for just like cable did to broadcast television.
但我不知道。我觉得随着这些流媒体越来越大、越来越广泛和难以管理，就像有线电视对广播电视所做的那样，似乎有机会。
Well, you've been awfully generous with your time, Doug. But before we let you go, I have to ask, especially since you have all of this viewing experience and programming experience. When you're flipping through the channels, or maybe you're looking at streams, is there a go-to for you, a show or a movie that you'll always stop for?
嗯，Doug，你的时间非常宝贵，谢谢你愿意与我们分享。不过，在我们结束之前，我必须得问一下，尤其是因为你有着如此丰富的观看和节目制作经验。当你切换频道或者看流媒体的时候，你总有一个特别喜欢的电视节目或电影吗？总是会停下来看一看吗？
Well, there's a couple of movies I always stop for. It's a pretty state answer, but it's the truth. I mean, if I see the Godfather or the Godfather, too, I'm stuck. I'm going to either stay up till three in the morning, maybe I'll be 20 minutes late for my dinner.
嗯，我总是会停下来看几部电影。这很平凡，但却是实话。我的意思是，如果我看到了《教父》或《教父2》，我就会停下来，要么会熬到凌晨三点，要么可能晚20分钟吃晚餐。
I cannot not watch like when I see the Godfather roll around. It's just, you know, one of those things. That's paramount as well. It will, of course, yeah, it will. Which brings us right back to death, doesn't it?
我不能不看当我看到教父绕着走。那只是其中的一件事，你知道的。这也是至关重要的。它当然会的，没错。这就让我们又回到了死亡，不是吗？
Well played, well played. Doug Herzog, thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars. It's been great to sailor. Thanks, have him. You appreciate it.
玩得不错，玩得不错。Doug Herzog，非常感谢您加入我们的商业战争节目。很高兴与您交谈。谢谢，非常感谢。您的参与我们非常感激。
Doug Herzog is the former president of Viacom's Music Entertainment Group and the co-host of Basic, the official podcast on the unofficial history of cable TV. Make sure to check it out wherever you get your podcasts.
道格·赫尔佐格是维亚康姆音乐娱乐集团前总裁，也是Basic官方播客的联合主持人，主题是有关有线电视的非正式历史。请务必在您获取播客的任何地方查看。
Now, when we come back, veteran entertainment industry journalist Matt Bellany brings us up to speed on where paramount stands today. Stay with us.
现在，当我们回来时，资深娱乐业记者马特·贝拉尼将带领我们了解派拉蒙公司今天的情况。请继续关注我们。
It's the fall of 2017 in Rancho Tejama, California. A man and his wife are driving to a doctor's appointment when another car crashes into them, sending them flying off the road. Disoriented, they stumble out of the car only to hear dozens of gunshots whizzing past them. This is just one chapter of a much larger nightmare unraveling in their small town.
现在是2017年的秋天，在加利福尼亚州的兰乔特哈马，一个男人和他的妻子正在开车去看医生，突然一辆车撞上他们，让他们飞了出去。他们感到非常失去方向，走出车子才听到数十声枪声从他们身边疾驰而过。这只是他们所在小镇上正在展开的更大的噩梦的一个章节。
This is actually happening, presents a special limited series called Point Blank, shedding a light on the forgotten spree killings of Rancho Tejama, where alone gunmen devastated a small town, attacking eight different locations in the span of only 25 minutes. The series follows five stories of people connected to the incident, from a father that drew the gunman away from a local school to the sister of the shooter. These are riveting stories that will stick with you long after you listen. Follow this is actually happening wherever you listen to podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app.
事实上正在发生的是，这里呈现了一部名为《近距离射击》的特别限量系列，揭示了在 Rancho Tejama 的袭击事件中被遗忘的一连串杀戮，其中独行杀手摧毁了一个小镇，在短短 25 分钟内袭击了八个不同的地点。该系列讲述了与事件有关的五个人的故事，从将枪手引开当地学校的父亲到枪手的妹妹。这些引人入胜的故事在你听完之后会让你久久难忘。在任何播客平台上搜索“This is actually happening”即可收听。在亚马逊音乐或 Wondery 应用程序上可以无广告收听。
Welcome back to Business Wars.
欢迎回来收听Business Wars。如果需要的话，我会进行适当的语言转换。
Once upon a time, Paramount was the crown jewel of the movie business, but has it lost its shine? In a new world dominated by streaming, this legacy studio is an underdog. Doing things a bit differently than its counterparts at Netflix, Disney, and Amazon. Here to help us understand more about Paramount's position in the industry today, Matt Bellany, he's a writer and founding member of Puck, an online entertainment newsletter. He's also the host of The Town, a podcast on The Ring, all about the business of Hollywood.
从前，派拉蒙是电影行业的王冠明珠，但它失去了它的光彩吗？在由流媒体主导的新世界中，这个传统制片厂成为了一个弱者。与Netflix、迪士尼和亚马逊等同行有些不同的是，它采用了一些不同的方式。为了帮助我们更加了解派拉蒙在今天的行业地位，马特·贝兰尼是我们的嘉宾。他是Puck在线娱乐新闻通讯的创始成员和作家，也是The Ring上关于好莱坞业务的播客《The Town》的主持人。
Matt Bellany, welcome to Business Wars.
马特·贝拉尼，欢迎来到商战节目。
Thanks for having me. You've been writing about the entertainment industry for a while now. I know and as I mentioned, do you help launch the newsletter Puck? How did that all get started?
谢谢你邀请我。你写娱乐行业的文章已经有一段时间了。我知道，正如我之前提到的，你有帮助推出Puck电子报吗？那是怎么开始的呢？
Well, I was the editor of the Hollywood Reporter for many years and I was an entertainment lawyer before that. So I kind of put all that experience into one place and said, what is not out there? There's not someone who has that background and is putting his thoughts in reporting and just really what I'm hearing around town talking to everybody. And it proved popular. And the newsletter has been growing really fast. Did we have this company Puck that covers the intersection of Hollywood and Silicon Valley and politics and media and finance kind of for an executive elevated class. And it's been really good. It's been really successful. We're a year in. It's been fun.
嗯，我曾经在好莱坞报道中担任过多年的编辑，在那之前我是一名娱乐律师。所以我将所有的经验融合到了一起，问自己：有什么是还没有出现的吗？没有人具备我的这种背景，可以将自己的想法与人们的讨论汇集起来进行报道。而这样做似乎很受欢迎。我的新闻简报也非常快速地发展壮大起来。我们创办了一个名叫“普克”的公司，主要报道好莱坞、硅谷、政治、媒体和金融这些领域的交叉点，为那些高管阶层提供服务。非常不错，也十分成功。我们已经推出一年了，感觉很有意思。
You know, there was a time when almost every mogul in Hollywood wanted to get their hands on Paramount. I mean, that was the gem, I guess. How does the studio really stack up in the industry today?
你知道吗，曾经几乎所有好莱坞的大老板都想拥有派拉蒙。我猜那是宝石般的存在。现在，这家电影公司在业界的实力如何呢？
You're absolutely right. Paramount was the crown jewel of entertainment back when some of the Redstone and Barry Diller and these moguls of the linear television age were fighting with each other. Paramount was this great asset. It's the only studio that is still in Hollywood. In Hollywood proper. It's got this great lot. And they have big franchises that they've had success with like Top Gun and Transformers. But over the past two decades, and I would argue due to some mismanagement of the company by its leadership, it has really devolved into the kind of also ran of the studio system. It, you know, and there's a very, there's a lot of different reasons for that. But it really does not have that crown jewel status that it once did.
你说得完全正确。当有些人如雷德斯通、巴里·迪勒以及这些线性电视时代的大亨们互相争斗时，帕拉蒙特是娱乐界的皇冠上的明珠。帕拉蒙特是一个很重要的资产。它是唯一的仍在好莱坞本城的电影工作室，它拥有一个很棒的场地，而且他们拥有许多大热门电影系列，像《壮志凌云》和《变形金刚》等。但是在过去的二十年里，由于公司领导层的一些管理问题，它已经变成了那种不平出众的电影工作室。这样的原因有很多，但它确实已经不再拥有它曾经的那种皇冠上的明珠的地位了。
Where do you think the studio went wrong over the past few decades? Or was it a sort of casualty of the fights to acquire it?
你认为这家工作室过去几十年里哪里做错了？或者它是在为了收购而打的战争中受到了伤害？
I mean, there's a couple of reasons. One is the leadership. It has been controlled by the Redstone family since the 90s. Right. And some to Redstone was a lion of the cable television age. He built up all of the MTV networks, the Paramount Film Studio. He went into the book business. He did all of these things to create a media empire. But it's very much a media empire of the last generation. And as he got older and he was still in control, he put people in charge that perhaps did not have the company's best interest in mine. Or I should say very much had their own interests in mind.
我的意思是，原因有几个。首先是领导层。自九十年代以来，维亚康姆一直由雷德斯通家族控制。没错。有些人认为雷德斯通是有线电视时代的狮子。他建立了所有MTV网络、派拉蒙电影工作室，并进入了图书业。他做了所有这些事情来创造一个媒体帝国。但这是一个上一代的媒体帝国。随着他年龄的增长，他仍然掌控着公司，并安排了一些人掌管公司，也许这些人并不是公司最佳利益的考虑者。我该说，他们非常重视自己的利益。
Paramount had the distribution rights to Marvel. Wow. They were in business with Marvel and released Iron Man, the first Marvel Studios movie that really longed for real life. Franchise we know as Marvel. But they didn't do a deal to keep Marvel. They let Disney come in and buy Marvel Studios for more than $4 billion. And all of a sudden, Marvel is a Disney franchise and has gone on to fantastic success and is powering Disney in the streaming age. Paramount just was not in the game there.
Paramount曾经拥有Marvel的发行权。哇，他们曾经和Marvel打交道，并发布了《钢铁侠》，这是第一部真正渴望真实人生的Marvel工作室电影。我们所知道的Marvel系列电影。但他们没有达成保留Marvel的交易。他们让迪士尼进来，以超过40亿美元的价格收购Marvel工作室。突然间，Marvel成为了迪士尼的专属系列电影，并在流媒体时代推动着迪士尼的超级成功。Paramount只是在那里没好好玩。
But I'm interested in what you say about the devolution of Paramount especially. When you think about the fact that one of the biggest movies of this year, right, Top Gun Maverick, it just crushed the summer box office. Yeah, that has really been an anomaly for Paramount.
但是，我很感兴趣听您说关于派拉蒙公司分权的情况。当您想到今年最受欢迎的电影之一，《壮志凌云：独行侠》，它不断击败夏季票房记录。是啊，对于派拉蒙公司来说，这确实是个例外。
They had hoped that it would be this big. But who would have guessed that a sequel to a 36 year old movie would be the biggest grocer of the summer. And that is unpredictable.
他们曾希望它会如此成功。但谁能猜到一部36年前的电影的续集会成为最大的夏季卖家。这真是出人意料。
For the most part, Paramount does not have as many of those active franchises as companies like Disney or even Universal. They have done well in recent years with some of the smaller level franchises, like something like Sonic the Hedgehog, Mission Impossible with Tom Cruise. The Transformers franchise is sort of on its last legs or needs some injection. But they are not, they don't have a Marvel. They don't have a DC Comics. They don't have an IP trove that they can keep mining for hit after hit. And that has really separated them.
大体上来说，派拉蒙不像迪士尼或甚至环球公司那样拥有那么多活跃的特许经营权。最近几年，他们在一些较小规模的特许经营权上表现不俗，比如《音速小子》、汤姆·克鲁斯的《碟中谍》系列。变形金刚系列有点到了尽头，或需要一些新的注入。但他们没有像漫威那样的IP（知识产权）宝库，可以不断开采以获得成功。这真的让他们与众不同。
Until very recently, they did not have a streaming strategy. Right. They, you know, there's a lot of different reasons for that. But some of the Redstone, while he was still alive, he was laser focused on the stock price. He split his companies up.
直到最近，他们还没有流媒体策略。对的，你知道的，有很多不同的原因。但在雷德斯通还活着的时候，他对股价非常关注。他把公司分成了多个。
CBS was one company. Paramount or Viacom was another company. And CBS was the broadcast network company. And Viacom was the cable television company with Paramount thrown in. And that was a very short term strategy. Did not plan for the long term.
CBS和Paramount或Viacom是两家不同的公司。CBS是广播网公司，而Viacom则是有Paramount的有线电视公司。然而，这只是一个短期计划，并没有考虑长远。
CBS ultimately launched all access, which was a streaming service. But they didn't really fund it with any premium content. And then just a couple years ago, they launched Paramount Plus, which is the streaming component for the company now. All access was merged into Paramount Plus. Yeah, I guess finally, some people would say. I mean, it's a bit of a surprise that it took so long.
最终，CBS推出了一个流媒体服务，名为All Access。但他们并没有为其提供任何高品质的内容。直到几年前，他们推出了Paramount Plus，这是公司现在的流媒体服务部分。All Access被合并入Paramount Plus。我想，有些人会说这是终于实现了。毕竟，它花了这么长时间还有点出乎意料。
Oh, absolutely. And I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example of something that is just absolutely egregious. The biggest performing show in cable television is Yellowstone, which is on the Paramount network. That is a Paramount show that airs on the Paramount cable network. But when it came time to decide the streaming option for Yellowstone, the powers that be at Viacom decided to put that show on Peacock, not their own streaming service, CBSL access at the time, because Peacock was the higher bidder. Peacock is owned by NBC Universal, a rival company and is a rival streaming service. So now, lo and behold, Paramount Plus launches. It doesn't have the signature show that everyone would assume that it has from Paramount network, which has the same name. You got to go to Peacock to watch Yellowstone. Oh, wow. Wow.
哦，绝对是这样。我将给你一个例子。我将给你一个绝对非常严重的例子。有线电视上最受欢迎的节目是《黄石》（Yellowstone），播出在派拉蒙（Paramount）电视网上。这是一部播放在派拉蒙电视网上的派拉蒙电视节目。但是，当决定为《黄石》提供流媒体选项时，维亚康姆（Viacom）的决策者决定将该节目放在Peacock上，而不是他们自己的流媒体服务CBSL access，因为Peacock出价更高。Peacock属于NBC Universal，是一家竞争对手公司和竞争对手的流媒体服务。所以现在，派拉蒙Plus推出了。它没有人人都认为它有的来自派拉蒙电视网的标志性节目，这个节目也叫《黄石》。你必须去Peacock观看《黄石》。哇，哇。
Well, now, is that the result of mismanagement, a lack of foresight? Is it possible that Paramount Plus could help Paramount make a larger comeback despite their missteps? The answer to that is yes.
噢，那是由于管理不善、缺乏远见吗？Paramount Plus 能否帮助 Paramount 在犯错的情况下获得更大的回报呢？答案是肯定的。
And I don't want to blame particular executives for what happened with Yellowstone. It wasn't a priority. The entire focus of the company at the time that the rights for Yellowstone came up was to make money and to make your quarterly numbers and to deliver for that stock price. So they got a bigger offer from Peacock. They put the rights there.
我不想指责某些高管对黄石发生的事情作出特定的指责。当时公司的整个关注点是赚钱，完成季度计划，并为那个股票价格提供服务。所以，当黄石的权利出现时，他们得到更高的收购报价。他们把权利放在了Peacock平台上。
Yellowstone also wasn't the Yellowstone. We know it as back then when they were selling it. It got off to a strong start, but it wasn't the juggernaut that it is today. And they put it on Peacock and then it became huge. And now it's this asset that they own and they licensed it elsewhere.
“黄石公园”在一开始并不是我们所知道的那个“黄石公园”。当时他们在出售它，它起步很强，但它还不像现在这样强大。他们将它放在Peacock平台上后，它变得非常受欢迎。现在，这是他们所拥有的一项资产，并在其他地方获得了许可。
I would actually say that Paramount Plus has come a long way since it launched. I mean, they do have some things there. They have the entire library of old CBS and Viacom cable network like MTV and BH1. A lot of those old shows are there. They're putting more of the Nickelodeon content on Paramount Plus.
我实际上会说Paramount Plus自推出以来发展了很长一段时间。我的意思是，他们确实有一些东西。他们有整个CBS和Viacom有线电视网络的图书馆，比如MTV和BH1。许多旧节目都在那里。他们正在将更多的Nickelodeon内容放在Paramount Plus上。
It also, they also own Nickelodeon. So there's things like SpongeBob SquarePants. I have a kid and he's on Paramount a lot because of that. They also, because of the CBS television rights for the NFL, the football rights, they can put football on Paramount Plus. Now it's not exclusive. That's a bigger deal. And that's what's going to Amazon for exclusive Thursday night football. But that is an asset. If you are a court cutter and you want to watch some football, you can do that on Paramount Plus.
他们还拥有Nickelodeon，所以有诸如《海绵宝宝》之类的东西。我有个孩子，他经常在Paramount看这个。此外，由于CBS电视对于NFL足球比赛的权利，他们可以在Paramount Plus上播放足球比赛。虽然这不是专有的，但也是一笔资产。如果你想看一些足球比赛，那么在Paramount Plus上是可以做到的，特别是如果你想省钱，不想花大价钱买套餐的话。当然，这就像同时拥有一个金蛋鸡和一个银蛋鸡，它们都很棒！
So I actually think that there is some decent stuff. They've also done a bunch of Yellowstone spin-offs. And those are going to Paramount Plus, something like 1883, which was a big hit for them. And they've got more coming down the pike on that. So they are funding Paramount Plus. But and it's gotten better. And the subscriber numbers are up. But it is so far behind where companies like Netflix and Amazon and even Disney Plus and Hulu are.
我觉得他们实际上有一些不错的作品。他们也制作了一系列与《黄石》有关的衍生剧集。这些都将在 Paramount Plus 上推出，比如像《1883》，这对他们来说是一次大成功。此外，他们还有更多的作品即将面世。所以，他们在为 Paramount Plus 提供资金支持。不过情况正在好转，订阅量也在上升。但是他们仍然远远落后于像 Netflix、Amazon、Disney Plus 和 Hulu 这样的公司。
Well, Matt, do you think for studios today is it really, does it really come down to it's less about movies more about the TV offerings, the streaming?
嗯，马特，你觉得对于电影公司来说，如今真的是更关注电视节目和流媒体而非电影本身吗?
You know, in the modern television age, the movie studios don't move the needle on the stock price.
你知道，在现代电视时代，电影制片公司对股票价格的影响微乎其微。
You know, everybody used, they get a lot of attention because these movies come out in theaters and everyone pays attention.
你知道，每个人都用这些电影在电影院上映并且每个人都关注它们，因此它们受到了很多关注。
But if you were following the Viacom stock price over the years, the Paramount movie studio was not what was powering that.
但是如果你多年来一直关注维亚康姆股票价格，派拉蒙电影公司并不是推动其股票价格上涨的主要动力。
It was the carriage fees and the ratings on cable television.
这是车费和有线电视收视率问题。
Now that is transferred over to streaming. And the streaming services are what are powering the stock prices of these entertainment companies.
现在这些娱乐公司的股价正在由流媒体服务推动。这些公司已经转移到了流媒体上面。
But it's all related.
但是这一切都是有关联的。
If you have a successful movie studio, the flywheel off of that is extremely significant.
如果你拥有成功的电影工作室，那么它的滚轮效应将是极其重要的。
You know, look at what Disney does when they release a Marvel movie or a Pixar movie or a Star Wars movie in theaters.
你知道的，看看迪士尼在影院放映漫威电影、皮克斯电影或《星球大战》电影时的做法。
Yeah. The downstream from that powers all of the other businesses from streaming to television to consumer products, to theme parks.
是的。它的下游为所有其他企业供电，从流媒体到电视、消费品以及主题公园。
All of these other things can be generated from a franchise that originates as a theatrical franchise.
所有这些其他的东西都可以从一个最初作为剧院系列的特许经营中生成。
So the movie studios are important.
因此，电影工作室是很重要的。
What do you think Paramount has done over the past few years to try and stay afloat? And is it working, do you think?
你认为派拉蒙在过去几年中为了维持生计做了什么？而且你认为它是否有效？
You know, they are now under control of Sherry Redstone who is Sumner's daughter and is a very savvy and smart woman.
你知道的，现在他们处于雪莉·雷德斯通的控制下，她是萨姆纳的女儿，是位非常精明和聪明的女士。
She has a CEO and Bob Backish that she feels confident in.
她有一位 CEO 和 Bob Backish，她对他们充满信心。
And they've made some executive changes to the way the company operates.
他们对公司运营方式做出了一些高层变革。
There are rumors that more are coming, actually.
其实，有传言说会有更多的人来。
And they feel that they have a good mix of a streaming strategy that they are investing in but not spending the entire bank role on that.
他们认为，他们拥有一个不仅在流媒体战略上进行投资，但也没有将全部资金用于此的良好组合。
They feel that they have a theatrical strategy where they are going to release big mission of possible top gun style movies in theaters and then put other stuff on streaming or sell it to other buyers.
他们认为他们有一个戏剧性的战略，即在电影院中发布可能类似《壮志凌云》的大型任务电影，然后将其他内容放在流媒体上或出售给其他买家。
And then they've got to manage this kind of decline of the cable business which still throws off billions of dollars in profit.
然后他们必须管理有线电视业务的下降，尽管该业务仍然产生数十亿美元的利润。
But they know that the court cutters are ultimately going to win and the cable TV business is going to go away.
他们知道法庭办事员最终会赢，有线电视业也会消失。
And cable brands like MTV, VH1, Paramount Network, those will not mean anything in 10 years.
像MTV、VH1、Paramount Network这样的有线电视品牌，10年后将不再具有任何意义。
To the extent they even mean anything today.
在今天，它们甚至可能不再有任何意义了。
Kids today, you ask them what MTV is. They'll give you a big shrug.
你问现在的孩子知不知道MTV是什么，他们会耸耸肩，一脸茫然的样子。
They don't even know what it is. And that's a problem for a company like Paramount.
他们甚至不知道那是什么。这对派拉蒙这样的公司来说是一个问题。
But they do have a strategy and they could succeed on those smaller parameters, with those smaller parameters.
但他们确实有一项策略，他们可以在那些更小的参数中成功，只要注意那些更小的参数即可。
Long-term, they are absolutely an acquisition target because they are not digging up to compete in the massive scale of Netflix, even Disney.
从长远来看，它们绝对是一个被收购的目标，因为它们不打算和 Netflix 或是迪士尼在大规模上竞争。
Apple is in the video space now.
现在，苹果进入了视频领域。
Amazon, Paramount is a small fry when it comes to those companies.
当谈到那些公司时，派拉蒙只是小角色，跟亚马逊相比，它微不足道。
Hey, it's time for a short break.
嘿，是时候休息一下了。
Our guest today is Matt Bellany. He's a journalist and host of The Town, a podcast for The Ringer.
今天我们的嘉宾是马特·贝拉尼。他是记者，也是为 The Ringer 所播出的 The Town 播客的主持人。
More on the behind-the-scenes business of Tensil Town when we come back.
我们稍后再谈一谈Tensil Town幕后的业务情况。
Welcome back to Business Wars.
欢迎回到商业大战。
Our guest today, Matt Bellany. He is a journalist and podcast host who writes about the intersection of money and power in Hollywood.
我们今天的嘉宾是马特·贝拉尼。他是一名记者和播客主持人，撰写有关好莱坞钱权交汇处的文章。
Matt, today, I guess you could say traditional media companies are joining forces left and right to keep up with giants like Disney and Netflix.
马特，今天我猜传统媒体公司正在加紧合作，以跟上迪士尼和Netflix这样的巨头。
You think Paramount's holding out on this front?
你认为派拉蒙公司在这方面藏着什么？
Is it just a matter of time before they join up with another major company to stay competitive? What do you think?
它们只是需要一些时间才能加入其他大公司以保持竞争力吗？你认为呢？
You know, that is the billion dollar question in Hollywood is will Sherry Redstone sell the empire?
你知道，在好莱坞，十分耗费心力的问题是，Sherry Redstone会卖掉这个帝国吗？
Her father built this empire.
她的父亲建立了这个帝国。
She did not.
她没有。
She had to maneuver to kind of get it out from under his spell while he was still alive.
当他还活着时，她不得不施展手段，从他的魔咒中摆脱出来。
And she now has a team in place that she likes.
现在她已经拥有一个她喜欢的团队了。
But ultimately, this is not a long-term company, most believe.
但最终，大多数人认为这不是一个长期的公司。
It is not big enough to compete with the new powers in entertainment.
它不够大，无法与娱乐界的新势力竞争。
So I think at some point she's got to be a seller.
我认为她肯定会成为卖家的。
But everybody I talk to in her world says, you know what? She loves it.
不过，我和她的世界里的每个人说话，他们都说，你知道吗？她非常喜欢它。
She finally sees herself in control.
她终于发现自己处于掌控之中。
She likes getting invited to Sun Valley and being the subject of endless fascination.
她喜欢被邀请去Sun Valley，并成为无尽热议的对象。
So she's going to hold on to it for now.
所以她现在打算先保留它。
But ultimately, it makes sense to sell a merchant.
但是最终来看，卖掉一个商人是有道理的。
Well, when does it make sense for a media company to well sell or make perhaps consolidate?
嗯，什么时候对一个媒体公司来说出售或合并才是有意义的呢？
There's two types of companies, as you know.
你们知道，有两种公司。
There are those that are closely held which are controlled by one Sherry Red.
有一些由Sherry Red控制的密切持有的东西。
And then there are those that are not.
然后还有一些不是的。
And our freefriars companies like Disney and Netflix, they are at the whim of the shareholders.
我们的Freefriars公司，如迪士尼和Netflix，它们受股东的支配。
The shareholders think they're going to get a better deal.
股东们认为他们会得到更好的交易。
It's like what's going on with Twitter.
就像Twitter上发生了什么一样。
If the shareholders think they're going to get a better deal, then they've got to pursue that deal.
如果股东认为他们会得到更好的交易，那么他们必须追求这笔交易。
But there are closely held media companies like Paramount Global or like Fox with the Murdoch's, where they don't have to listen.
但是，有像Paramount Global这样的近期媒体公司，或者像Murdoch家族的Fox，他们不需要听取别人的意见。
I mean, obviously they do listen to their shareholders. And if their stock is floundering and they're not making money, their shareholders can bail on them. But when you buy the stock of Paramount Global, you buy it knowing that the Redstone family controls that stock and she can decide what to do with it. So things would have to get bad for her to be forced to sell. Will she want to sell in the future and secure her family for generations with the money that she could get? Maybe, but who knows?
我是说，很明显，他们确实听取股东的意见。如果他们的股票价格下跌，公司不挣钱，股东们就会离开。但当你购买Paramount Global的股票时，你知道Redstone家族控制了这些股票，他们可以决定如何处理。因此，情况必须变得糟糕，她才会被迫卖出股票。将来她会不会想要出售股票，以获得足够的钱来为家族争取几代人的福利呢？可能会，但谁知道呢？
Matt, I want to look back to something you were talking about earlier, where you mentioned that it was a real asset for Paramount Plus to have access to the CBS programs, the Viacom shows. Viacom CBS actually changed their corporate name to Paramount earlier this year as a nod to the historic studio. Do you think Viacom's 1994 purchase of Paramount has paid off in the long run, sort of taking that long view?
马特，我想回顾一下你之前谈到的话题，你提到对于Paramount Plus来说，能够获得CBS电视节目和Viacom电视节目是一项真正的优势。事实上，今年早些时候，维亚康姆CBS公司将其公司名称更改为Paramount，以向这个历史性的电影公司致敬。你认为维亚康姆在1994年收购Paramount的决定从长远来看是否值得？
Oh, yeah. In the long run, having a movie studio of Paramount's stature has absolutely paid off. I mean, when you buy a movie studio, we just saw this with Amazon purchasing MGM. It's not necessarily about what you're making in the future. It's about the library that comes along with that studio. And MGM's library is famously a great library, although it's got a lot of encumbrances on it these days. But the Paramount library is a pretty good library. I mean, think back to all those movies from the 70s and 80s and 90s. You know, you get the Beverly Hills Cop movies. You get some of those John Hughes movies like Ferris Bealers Day Off. You get the Godfather movies and all of the 70s style movies. There's a lot in that library. You get Forrest Gump. You get, you know, those movies will always be valuable.
哦，是啊。从长远来看，拥有像派拉蒙这样的电影工作室绝对是值得的。我的意思是，当你购买一个电影工作室时，我们刚刚看到了亚马逊购买MGM的情况。它并不一定是关于你将来要制作什么。它是关于那个工作室所带来的图书馆。MGM的图书馆是非常棒的，虽然现在它有很多障碍。但是派拉蒙的图书馆也是一本不错的书。我是说，回想一下70年代、80年代和90年代的电影。你知道，你可以得到《贝弗利山警探》系列电影。你可以得到一些约翰·休斯的电影，比如《菲莉丝的假期》。你可以得到教父系列电影和所有70年代的电影。那个图书馆里有很多。你可以得到《阿甘正传》。你知道，这些电影将始终有价值。
Mm-hmm. You know, there have been so many changes to the industry recently. And I'm wondering, which companies would you say are leading in the entertainment industry right now? And I wonder if anyone has really figured this new landscape out?
嗯，你知道最近行业发生了很多变化。我在想，现在哪些公司在娱乐行业中处于领先地位？我在想，有没有任何人真正弄清楚了这个新的局势？
Yeah, leading is a very difficult question. Because, you know, if you look at the streaming business, I mean, obviously Netflix is the leader in that one, because it has 220 million subscribers around the world. Now, it has spent a fortune to get there. And until recently, the stock market has really valued that. But the Netflix stock is in the toilet these days. Because all the sudden, Wall Street doesn't think that Netflix can get to 500, 600, 700 million subscribers in the time period that it thought it could.
嗯，领先是一个非常困难的问题。你知道，如果你看看流媒体业务，我是说，很明显Netflix在这方面是领导者，因为它在全球拥有2.2亿订阅用户。现在，它花费了巨额资金才达到这个地步。直到最近，股市一直非常看重Netflix。但是现在Netflix的股票却很不景气。因为突然间，华尔街认为Netflix不能在它认为的时间内达到5亿、6亿、7亿的用户数。
So in the content world, I mean, most people believe that Disney has really set itself apart as the ultimate modern content machine. The purchases over the past 15 years of Marvel and Pixar and Lucasfilm and Fox have turned Disney into this juggernaut where they can, you know, they are producing all genres of content. And at a very high level and executing on multiple platforms. And it's going to be tough to continue that. And they have some issues there. But if I had to pick one entertainment company to bet on, I would bet on Disney.
所以在内容的世界中，大多数人相信迪士尼已经成为了终极现代内容机器的代表。在过去15年中购买了漫威、皮克斯、卢卡斯影业和福克斯，使得迪士尼成为了一个庞然大物，他们可以生产所有的内容类型，而且在多个平台上执行的非常出色。虽然他们面临着一些问题，但要选择一个娱乐公司押注，我会押注迪士尼。
Maybe we should flip around to the other side of the screen. Five, 10 years down the road. What do you think the TV and movie experience is going to look like, feel like for everyday viewers?
也许我们应该翻转到屏幕的另一边。五到十年后，你认为电视和电影的观看体验会是什么样子，会为日常观众带来怎样的感受？
It will be largely a streaming experience. I mean, the broadcast networks are already being starved of the best content. All of it is going to streaming. That's only going to continue. Cort Cutting will continue to the point where there will be a tipping point at some point where it doesn't make sense for these cable networks to continue. They will consolidate or go away. And the streaming universe will just become television. That's how we will consume professionally produced content.
很大程度上，它将是一种流媒体体验。我的意思是，广播网络已经无法获得最好的内容，所有内容都正在流媒体上播出。这种情况只会加剧。科特·卡廷将继续发展，到某个临界点时，这些有线网络继续存在就不再有意义了。它们将整合或消失，而流媒体世界将成为电视。这就是我们将如何消费专业制作的内容。
Matt Bellany, thanks so much for taking time to talk with us on business wars.
Matt Bellany，非常感谢您抽出时间与我们谈论业务战争。
Great to say hello.
很高兴打招呼。
No problem, thanks.
没问题，谢谢。
Matt Bellany writes for Puck and E-Newsletter covering the intersection of business, tech, and entertainment. His podcast, The Town from the Ringer, brings you the backstory on Hollywood's latest happenings. You can follow Matt on Twitter at Matt Bellany.
马特·贝拉尼为《Puck》和电子通讯稿撰稿，涵盖商业、科技和娱乐的交叉领域。他的播客节目《镇民》（The Town）来自环球网，为你讲述好莱坞最新动态的背后故事。你可以在Twitter上关注马特·贝拉尼，账户名为Matt Bellany。
Next time, we're taking a deep dive into the music industry exploring the relationship between artists, labels, fans, and the internet. And that's coming up next on the Best of Business Wars Daily. From Wondry, this is Episode 5 of The Battle for Paramount Pictures for Business Wars. I'm your host, David Brown. Kelly Kyle and Peter Arcoony produce this episode. Karen Lo is our senior producer and editor, edited and produced by Emily Frost. Sound designed by Kyle Randall. Additional audio assistance by Sergio Enriquez. Dave Schilling is our producer. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louis, created by Ernan Lopez for Wondry.
下一次，我们将深入探讨音乐行业，探讨艺术家、唱片公司、粉丝和互联网之间的关系。即将播出的是《商战日报》的精选内容。这是Wondry的《商海之战》第5集——《派拉蒙影业之争》。我是您的主持人David Brown。由Kelly Kyle和Peter Arcoony制作本集。Karen Lo是我们的高级制片人和编辑，本集由Emily Frost编辑和制作。声音设计由Kyle Randall担任，Sergio Enriquez提供额外音频协助。Dave Schilling是我们的制片人。我们的执行制片人是Jenny Lauer Beckman和Marshall Louis，由Ernan Lopez为Wondry创造。