Michael Saylor & David Marcus: The Future of The Lightning Network | Bitcoin for Corporations

Please welcome back your host, Natalie Brunel. All right, this is the fireside chat we've all been waiting for. How are we going to connect hundreds and thousands of companies on the Lightning Network? Well, we're going to hear all about that. So I'd like to welcome back Michael Saylor, executive chairman and founder of MicroStrategy and one of the leading advocates for Bitcoin in the world. And David Marcus, who is the CEO and co-founder of Lightspark. Lightspark is building core infrastructure on the Lightning Network. Most recently, David led all payments and crypto efforts at Meta. In 2018, David started DM, which was formerly known as Libra, you might know it. He joined Meta then called Facebook in 2014 to lead Messenger, which he took from under 200 million monthly users to over 1.5 billion users. He was also previously PayPal's president. Lifelong entrepreneur David Marcus launched two companies in Europe, then founded Mobile Payments Company, Zong in Silicon Valley, which was acquired by PayPal. His story is fascinating. I've had the chance to interview him, but this is probably going to be a better interview. So welcome to the stage.

欢迎回来，我们的主持人，娜塔莉·布鲁内尔。 好的，这是我们期待已久的炉边谈话。我们如何在闪电网络上连接成百上千的公司？ 好吧，我们即将听到所有相关内容。 现在，让我们欢迎迈克尔·塞勒，他是MicroStrategy的执行主席和创始人，也是全球比特币的主要倡导者之一。 以及大卫·马库斯，他是Lightspark的首席执行官兼联合创始人。Lightspark正在构建闪电网络的核心基础设施。 最近，大卫领导了Meta所有的支付和加密货币工作。2018年，大卫创办了DM，之前称为Libra，你可能知道这个名字。他于2014年加入当时名为Facebook的Meta，领导Messenger业务，将其用户数从不到2亿提高到超过15亿。他之前还曾担任PayPal的总裁。终身企业家大卫·马库斯在欧洲创办了两家公司，之后在硅谷创办了移动支付公司Zong，该公司后来被PayPal收购。 他有一个非常有趣的故事，我曾有机会采访他，但此次采访可能会更加精彩。 请上台。

APPLAUSE So I've been excited about this interview all week. For those of you who are not in the Bitcoin community, David is legendary in the community, and he's one of the most inspirational Bitcoin maximalists in the world. He's leading the charge with regard to scaling the Bitcoin network and connecting corporations everywhere. This is my chance to ask you all these questions I've been wanting to ask, and never had an opportunity.

掌声 我整整一周都在期待这次采访。对于不在比特币社区里的朋友们来说，大卫在社区中是一个传奇人物，他是世界上最具启发性的比特币极致主义者之一。他在比特币网络扩展和全球企业连接方面引领潮流。这次机会让我能够向你提问我一直想问但从未有机会问的问题。

So I guess, David, I'd like to start with, I mean, you've had an amazing career, across all aspects of FinTech money, payments. How has your career experience shaped your view of Bitcoin today? And what have you learned in the course of your career? Of course, and thank you for having me here. It's such a great event with so many amazing participants. So look, I started my career trying to remove friction from payments, and one of the first companies that I started was Zong, I mean, the company that led to Zong, which was a mobile payments company, and what we tried to do is remove a lot of friction. That company was acquired by PayPal. We did a bunch of different things at PayPal to remove, reduce friction, acquired Venmo, incorporated all these things.

那么，大卫，我想首先谈谈你的职业生涯。你在金融科技、货币和支付领域取得了惊人的成就。你的职业经历是如何影响你对比特币的看法的？你在职业生涯中学到了什么？ 当然，谢谢邀请我来这里。这个活动真是太棒了，有那么多优秀的参与者。好吧，我的职业生涯起步于试图消除支付过程中的障碍。我创办的第一家公司之一是Zong，也就是后来演变成Zong的公司，这是一家移动支付公司，我们试图消除很多摩擦。这家公司后来被PayPal收购。在PayPal时期，我们做了很多不同的事情来减少摩擦，比如收购Venmo，并将这些东西整合在一起。

And in 2011, 2012, really got deep into Bitcoin, and it was a fascinating moment. Like, this idea that I could send and receive money, and at the time it was the blockchain.info wallet with, you know, non-custodial, everything, it was really magical, this idea that you can send and receive money without any intermediary, without any centralized party. And then really things got clearer to me when I was leading PayPal, and in Argentina they asked us to remove the ability for people to move money out of the country, and suddenly the price of Bitcoin shut up the day we did that. And it was really clear that people went to local markets, bought Bitcoin, so they could actually get their hard-earned wages out of the country or where they wanted it to be, which should be a basic human right.

在2011年和2012年，我深入接触了比特币，这段时间真的非常有趣。那时，我用的是blockchain.info钱包，非托管一切，这种可以不用中介、没有中心化机构的情况下传送和接收资金的想法，真的是非常神奇。后来，当我在PayPal工作时，有一次在阿根廷，政府要求我们禁止人们将资金转移出国，结果当天比特币价格飙升。这时我才真正明白，人们去本地市场购买比特币，就是为了确保自己辛苦赚来的钱可以脱离国家控制，流向他们想要的地方，这应该是基本的人权。

And so that really inspired me. And then I went on to Facebook to do some non-payment related things for a while in Messenger, and I realized in late 2017 that basically the networks, the underlying payment networks where the majority of transactions were still happening, hadn't evolved in any shape or form since basically 1974 when Swift was invented, and that all the fintech was basically a little bit of lipstick on a pig, like it's better user experience on the front end, but still dependent on very archaic old rails that don't allow you to move money cross-border Friday after 5pm, and is still very costly.

这真的激励了我。然后，我在Facebook上使用Messenger做了一些与支付无关的事情。在2017年年底，我意识到大部分交易所依赖的基础支付网络自1974年Swift发明以来几乎没有任何变化。所有的金融科技看起来不过是“给猪涂了点口红”，也就是说，前端用户体验得到了改善，但仍然依赖非常老旧的系统，这些系统在周五下午5点后无法进行跨境转账，而且成本依然很高。

And so that's when we started a Libra journey, and at the time we looked at Bitcoin and Lightning because that would have been my preferred way, but the technology wasn't mature enough, and so we did something that was more centralized, a stablecoin and a proprietary network that we tried to decentralize as much as possible, but we quickly realized that it was too centralized and probably had the wrong sponsor at the time, so it was shut down by the US government and other governments that, for once, agreed on everything.

所以那时我们开始了Libra的旅程。当时我们也关注了比特币和闪电网络，因为这是我偏好的一种方式，但技术还不够成熟。于是我们选择了一种更为中心化的方案——一种稳定币和一个专有网络，并尽力将其去中心化。但很快我们意识到，这个项目还是太中心化了，而且可能当时的赞助方也不合适，所以美国政府和其他政府达成一致意见，关停了这个项目。

And it made us realize that actually the only asset that's neutral enough and decentralized enough to truly be the neutral settlement layer between all of the domestic real-time payment systems that have since then proliferated everywhere is Bitcoin and nothing else, and so that's what we've been doing at Lightsparks in almost two years now. So you started focusing on Bitcoin and the humanitarian aspect in Argentina, what was the year when that Argentinian event took place? I think it was 2013. So probably like to pay so as like 10 pesos to the dollar, or 20. Now probably 10 to the dollar, it is a thousand to the dollar now, right? Correct.

这让我们意识到，其实唯一中立且去中心化到足以成为所有国内即时支付系统之间的真正中立结算层的资产，只有比特币，别无其他。因此，这就是我们在Lightsparks近两年来一直在做的事情。那么你开始关注比特币以及它在阿根廷的人道主义方面的应用是什么时候的事情？我觉得是在2013年。那时候可能汇率是1美元兑10比索或20比索。现在可能是1美元兑10比索吧，但如今已经是1美元兑1000比索了，对吗？没错。

So I don't know, the lesson for everybody is just as the peso was crashing, it still had 99% of its value to lose in the next few years, but getting off of currency debasement, Bitcoin is the neutral settlement layer, so where does lightning come into all of this? What's your view of lightning? What's the role of layer 2s? How do you define a layer 2 and help the audience because you know more than anybody about that? Well, so once you build the conviction that Bitcoin is the neutral settlement network for all payments in the world, you know that it's secure, you know that it's decentralized, you know that its value can't be messed with, you have to make it fast and cheap. And so Bitcoin is very secure on layer 1, but it's slow, it takes 10 minutes for a new block to be added, about 10 minutes. And the fees, especially now that there are more things that are being published on the Bitcoin blockchain, the fees are quite high. And so here comes the lightning network, which is basically a payment layer 2 on top of Bitcoin that enables really fast, like near real time and really cheap movement of Bitcoin.

所以，我不知道每个人得到的教训是什么。就像比索在崩溃的时候，它在接下来的几年里仍然有99%的价值可以失去。但要摆脱货币贬值，比特币是中立的结算层。那么在这一切中，闪电网络（Lightning Network）扮演了什么角色呢？你对闪电网络有什么看法？第二层（Layer 2）的角色是什么？你如何定义第二层，并帮助观众理解这一点，因为你对此比任何人都了解得更多？ 嗯，一旦你确信比特币是全球所有支付的中立结算网络，你就知道它是安全的，是去中心化的，它的价值不会被篡改，你就需要让它变得快速且廉价。因此，比特币在第一层（Layer 1）非常安全，但它速度慢，大约需要10分钟才能添加一个新区块。而且尤其现在有更多的东西发布在比特币区块链上，费用相当高。 于是，闪电网络应运而生，它基本上是一个比特币之上的支付第二层，使得比特币的转移非常快，接近实时，并且非常便宜。

And when we started that journey almost two years ago, we realized that lightning was actually great at a theoretical level, but really hard to operate for mainstream companies. And so what we did at Lightspark is we built an enterprise-grade platform that enables companies to connect to the lightning network without any of the complexities of running a node, deploying liquidity, opening channels, finding routes, splitting payments into smaller payments and reassembling them on the other side to make sure that they arrive at the right destination. All concepts that are quite foreign for companies that are just looking to connect to an endpoint and send and receive transactions reliably. And so that's what we've been doing, and we're very happy that actually this week, Coinbase started launching support for lightning on our stack, so that's a major milestone for the network and also for our company, bringing one of the largest exchanges in a world with 100 countries and about 100 million customers onto the network, which is a big milestone for us. Thanks.

当我们几乎在两年前开始这个旅程时，我们意识到闪电网络在理论层面上确实非常出色，但是对于主流公司来说，操作起来非常困难。因此，我们在Lightspark所做的，就是构建了一个企业级的平台，使公司可以连接到闪电网络，而无需处理运行节点、部署流动性、打开通道、寻找路由、将付款拆分成小额付款并在另一端重新组装以确保它们到达正确目的地等复杂问题。所有这些概念对于那些只是想连接到一个端点并可靠地发送和接收交易的公司来说，都是相当陌生的。正是因为如此，我们做了这些工作，并且非常高兴地宣布，实际上就在本周，Coinbase已开始在我们的平台上支持闪电网络，这对网络和我们公司来说都是一个重要的里程碑。将一个在全球100个国家拥有约1亿客户的最大交易所之一接入网络，真的是我们的一个重大成就。谢谢。

So how long do you think lightning has been mature enough that you could start to do the things that you're doing at scale? When did we cross that chasm or cross that barrier when lightning was kind of ready for? So I think that four exchanges or neobanks or institutions that touch both fiat and Bitcoin, the time is now. The time is now to connect them to the network to enable fast, cheap, real-time movement of Bitcoin and other assets. The next slew of companies are actually companies that don't want to touch Bitcoin directly, but they still want global 24-7 settlement of payments and money. And so we announced this UMA standard that stands for universal money address last November that enables consumers or companies to have things that look exactly like an email address, but for money and uses lightning and Bitcoin, but you can, let's say, send US dollars to someone in Mexico receiving Mexican pesos. It settles in real-time end-to-end, but the consumers don't even know that you're using Bitcoin and lightning, or businesses don't even know that either.

那么，你认为闪电网络（Lightning Network）成熟到可以大规模应用，有多长时间了？我们是什么时候跨过那个障碍，使得闪电网络真正准备好了呢？所以我认为，对于那些连接法币和比特币的交易所、数字银行或者金融机构来说，现在正是时候。现在正是把它们连接到网络中，来实现快速、低成本、实时的比特币和其他资产的转移的时候。接下来的一批公司实际上是不想直接接触比特币的，但是它们仍然希望能实现全球24/7的支付和资金结算。因此，我们去年11月发布了这个UMA标准，意思是“通用货币地址”。这个标准使消费者或公司可以拥有类似于电子邮件地址的东西，但用于金钱交易，并使用闪电网络和比特币进行操作。举个例子，你可以将美元发送给墨西哥接收墨西哥比索的用户，整个过程实时结算，但消费者甚至不知道你在使用比特币和闪电网络，企业也不知道。

And we think it's a little bit like email where most people, if you're not a geek, you don't care about SMTP and TCP IP when you send an email, and in this case, the same is true for Bitcoin and lightning when you send a payment. We're trying to abstract it all to give people what they want, but leverage the neutrality and the global liquidity depth of Bitcoin against all the fiat currencies to make it really efficient and real-time for people to move money around the world. Yeah, so I mean this stuff was, people weren't even talking about it in 2017 or 2018. So tell us about, tell me a little bit more about Lite Spark. You're primarily offering services to corporations. Tell me about your customers. What kind of customers do you have and what kind of challenges are they trying to overcome?

我们认为这有点像电子邮件，对于大多数人来说，如果你不是技术宅，你在发送电子邮件时不会关心SMTP和TCP/IP。类似地，当你进行支付时，对于比特币和闪电网络也是同样的道理。我们试图把这些技术细节抽象出来，给人们提供他们想要的东西，同时利用比特币在全球货币中的中立性和深厚流动性，使得全球资金转移变得更加高效和实时。 是的，我的意思是，这些东西在2017年或2018年人们甚至都没有讨论过。所以请告诉我们，更多地介绍一下Lite Spark。你们主要向企业提供服务，那你的客户有哪些类型？他们试图克服哪些挑战呢？

So we have customers that are large exchanges like Coinbase in the US or coins.ph in the Philippines, or wallets and exchanges like Ripio that are very large in Latin America, or banks in Europe like Zappo and others. And we're adding a tremendous amount of exchanges, wallets, and neo-banks that can move Bitcoin. That's kind of the first category of partners. And what we do for them is actually give them an easy, reliable enterprise-grade non-custodial access to lightning. So they run their own node on our stack and they're able to send and receive transactions and they outsource everything but the security. So in the case of the coin-based implementation, they have their keys on their side. They sign everything. So from a security standpoint, they don't outsource that part. They still have this in-house. And then we manage all the complexity of lightning.

所以我们拥有一些大型客户，比如美国的Coinbase或菲律宾的coins.ph，或者像在拉丁美洲非常大的Ripio这样的钱包和交易所，还有欧洲的银行如Zappo等。我们正在增加大量能够转移比特币的交易所、钱包和新型银行。这是我们合作伙伴的第一个类别。我们为他们提供的是一种简单、可靠且企业级的非托管访问闪电网络的方式。他们在我们的系统上运行自己的节点，能够发送和接收交易，并且除了安全性之外，其他一切都由我们来处理。例如，在Coinbase的实施案例中，他们的密钥保存在自己手中，并且所有签名操作都是由他们完成的。因此，从安全性角度来看，这部分没有外包，仍然由他们内部管理。而我们则负责处理闪电网络的所有复杂操作。

So you can send and receive transactions to another endpoint on the network, reliably knowing it's going to happen even for larger transactions. You don't have to worry about liquidity. We provide all of the liquidity on the in-bound side. So it's basically like, you know, it's maybe the wrong analogy, but it's like, you know, you want traditional payments. You connect an API to Stripe. In this case, you want to move Bitcoin fast in real-time. We provide that same level of API and SDK that you would expect from a traditional PSP in payments, basically. Are there different classes of customers with different opportunities or challenges? Yeah.

所以你可以在网络上的另一个端点发送和接收交易，并且可以可靠地知道即使是较大的交易也会顺利进行。你不必担心流动性问题。我们在入站方面提供所有的流动性。因此，这基本上就像——虽然可能这个比喻不太恰当——你想要传统的支付方式时，连接一个API到Stripe。在这种情况下，你想要实时快速地转移比特币。我们提供与传统支付服务提供商相同级别的API和SDK。 不同客户群体是否有不同的机会或挑战？是的。

So, you know, the first set of customers are really the exchanges. You're buying or selling Bitcoin in an exchange. You want to move Bitcoin or bring Bitcoin to an exchange to sell it for another asset. And making all of these exchanges more fluid, more real-time. That's a really key component of moving Bitcoin liquidity between exchanges and wallets. So that's kind of at the basement layer or foundational layer of what we do. And then UMA is more retail facing, despite the fact that we never touch consumers, but we empower banks and wallets and fintech companies to actually really build experiences that enable 24-7 money movement in any currency on top of Bitcoin and Lightning. And so that's kind of the combination of UMA and our stack that's called Lightspark Connect that connects on top of Lightning.

所以，你知道，第一批客户实际上是交易所。你在交易所里买卖比特币，想要把比特币转移到交易所，或者带到交易所卖掉换取另一种资产。让所有这些交易更加流畅、实时化，这是移动比特币流动性在各个交易所和钱包之间的一个关键因素。这相当于我们工作的基础层面或根本层面。 然后，UMA更多面对的是零售市场，虽然我们从不直接接触消费者，但我们让银行、钱包和金融科技公司能够真正构建体验，实现全天候的资金移动，无论是哪种货币，都可以在比特币和闪电网络之上进行。所以，这就是UMA和我们称为Lightspark Connect的技术栈的结合，它们连接在闪电网络之上。

So it's addressing its compliance. It's a messaging protocol that enables sending and receiving institutions to quote exchange rates between Bitcoin and fiat currency, so you can only display the fiat currency and the entire underlying stack on Lightning. Is it different for companies in Europe or South America than companies in the U.S.? Are the requirements the same or are they very regionally? No, it's actually a really good question because when you look at the average Bitcoin purchase on a lot of the exchanges or wallets in the U.S. or in Western Europe, those are fairly large purchases. And then if you want to move that balance onto a wallet on layer one, the fee is still high but like maybe acceptable. In a lot of cases when we work with BitNob in Africa and Ripio in Latin America and many others or in the Philippines, the average purchase of Bitcoin is maybe $30, $25, and people are just stacking sats and buying whatever they can. And if you want to move $20 of Bitcoin right now out of a wallet or an exchange to another wallet on layer one, the transaction will cost you more than your Bitcoin purchase.

所以，这里讨论的是合规性问题。这是一种消息协议，能够让发送和接收机构交换比特币和法定货币的汇率，因此你只需要显示法定货币和闪电网络上的整个底层架构。对于欧洲或南美的公司，情况与美国公司有区别吗？要求是否相同，还是因地区而异？这是个很好的问题，因为如果你看美国或西欧的很多交易所或钱包上的平均比特币购买金额，通常都是比较大的购买。而如果你想把这些余额转移到第一层网络的钱包上，费用虽然高但相对可以接受。但在我们与非洲的BitNob、拉丁美洲的Ripio以及菲律宾的其他公司合作时，平均比特币购买金额可能是30美元、25美元，人们只是在累积“聪”（比特币的最小单位）和购买他们力所能及的金额。如果你现在想把20美元的比特币从一个钱包或交易所转移到另一层一层网络的钱包上，交易费用会比你购买的比特币还高。

And so their Lightning is indispensable, basically. Whereas here it's just a matter of more convenience, faster movement of money, over there it's kind of a must-have. Okay, so tell me about some of the other challenges they're facing. Your customers have compliance issues and you talked about fiat conversion issues as well. You solve those, does Lightning support those things natively? Have you built software on top and how important is it? So it's really important because our clients for the most part are regulated institutions. And so if you don't make things compliant for regulated institutions, in most cases you can't sell it to them and if you do, then they get in trouble and so you can't really build a business.

他们的 Lightning 技术基本上是不可或缺的。这里它只是提供了更多的便利性和更快的资金流动，但在那里它几乎是必需品。好的，那告诉我一些他们面临的其他挑战。你的客户有合规问题，你也提到法币转换的问题。如果你解决了这些问题，Lightning 是否原生支持这些功能？你们是否在其基础上开发了软件？这有多重要呢？ 这非常重要，因为我们的客户大多是受监管的机构。如果你不让产品符合这些机构的合规要求，多数情况下你不能将其出售给他们。如果你出售，他们会遇到麻烦，因此你无法真正建立起一门生意。

So we had to do a lot of things to make Lightning compliance a thing, which it really lacked a lot of capabilities there. And so we enable a fully compliant solution for Lightning that enables them to abide by travel rule, that enables them to check the other endpoint or the institution that they're sending to or receiving from. And that's all embedded in the UMA protocol as well. And so we really enable regulated institutions to be fully compliant in sending and receiving transactions on top of the Lightning. If you didn't do it, they'd have to do it. And if they would do it, they'd probably have a thousand companies all trying to do the same thing over and over again, right?

所以我们不得不做很多事情来使闪电网络（Lightning Network）合规，因为它在这方面确实缺乏很多能力。因此，我们提供了一种完全合规的闪电网络解决方案，使得他们能够遵守旅行法则，能够检查他们发送交易或接收交易的对方节点或机构。这些功能同样嵌入在UMA协议中。因此，我们真正使得受监管的机构能够在闪电网络上完全合规地发送和接收交易。如果我们不做这些事情，他们就不得不自己去做。而如果他们自己去做，可能会有成千上万家公司重复做同样的事情，对吧？

Yeah, and we provide a package solution that enables people using our stack to actually meet their compliance requirements. And what about the currency conversions? That's actually a really cool experience, right? Because you can be, let's say, in the Philippines and you can claim a new address in the Philippines and you can be, you know, dollar sign, Michael at coins.ph. And I can be in, say, Europe and I have a bank account with Exapo. I have dollar sign, David, at Exapo.com. You want to receive Filipino peso. I'm using euros. So I can use my balance in euros, send you money, the value that I want to send, that can be denominated in the user experience in Filipino peso or Euro, you choose. And then you hit the send button and one second later, 24-7, at a very low cost, you get Filipino peso on the other side.

是的，我们提供了一整套解决方案，使使用我们技术栈的人能够符合他们的合规要求。那么货币转换呢？这实际上是一个非常不错的体验，对吧？因为你可以，比如说你在菲律宾，你可以在菲律宾获取一个新的地址，你可以是，假设，dollar sign（美元符号），Michael（Michael的电子邮件地址为 coins.ph）。而我可能在欧洲，我有一个Exapo的银行账户，我的电子邮件地址是dollar sign，David（David的电子邮件地址为Exapo.com）。你想要接收菲律宾比索，而我用的是欧元。那么，我可以用我的欧元余额，发送给你想要的金额，这些金额可以在用户体验中显示为菲律宾比索或欧元，由你选择。然后你按下发送按钮，一秒钟后，全天候、低成本地，你将在另一端收到菲律宾比索。

Which is currently almost a magical experience if you're trying to move money across borders across like an open network that developers can build on. And we're very bullish about this. It's going to take a long time for us to actually get a maximal reach of the network. But we're already starting early signs of huge promise for us. And that also is really interesting. I know there are many different types of companies in the audience right now needing to move money in all kinds of different shapes or form. And I think it's really important to pay attention to this because I think it can be a massive competitive advantage if you can either receive or not. Or you can either receive or disburse money globally faster and better than your competitors. You can actually build a pretty significant competitive advantage.

如果你希望在一个开发者可以基于其构建的开放网络上跨国转账，目前这种体验几乎是神奇的。我们对此非常乐观。要真正达到网络的最大覆盖范围需要很长时间，但我们已经看到了巨大的潜力。这非常令人兴奋。我知道在座的许多公司都有不同形式和需求的资金转移。我认为关注这一点非常重要，因为如果你能够比竞争对手更快、更好地全球接收或支付资金，这将成为一个巨大的竞争优势。

And one use case that we've been thinking about is like, let's say that you're a platform that has a lot of creators and creators, if they're not in the US and most of those platforms are in the US, the long tail gets paid every six months. And so that holds GDP back, like the global GDP of like the world and people in different countries by a lot. And what if you could stream money in real time as people are actually getting views? Or are gig economy workers, Uber drivers or whatever, they would just get the money at the time they performed a task or they get views. And that would unlock a lot of value for the world.

我们一直在思考的一个使用场景是这样的：假设你是一个拥有大量创作者的平台，而这些创作者如果不在美国，而大多数这种平台都在美国，那么这些创作者可能每六个月才会收到一次收入。这会严重影响全球GDP的增长。假如我们能实时支付报酬，当创作者获得浏览量或是零工经济的工人（如Uber司机）完成任务时，他们能够立即收到酬劳，这将释放出非常大价值。

Are we moving toward an era where I could send $20 to anybody's email address or UMA address in one second for Penny or something? That's the goal. You think more money will be sent in fiat currency over these lightning rails than Satoshi's are sent? Or like what do you think will happen? How will people actually use this capability and reality? So the way that I think about this is that in this case, bitcoins are like packets, like if I make an internet analogy. Bitcoin are like packets on top of lightning, which is kind of TCP IP. And so you convert currency into the most neutral form of digital internet money that has ever been created for the time of one second So that value can actually be transported natively on the internet to where it needs to go.

我们是否正迈向这样一个时代：我可以用一秒钟的时间，通过便士或类似的东西，将20美元发送到任何人的电子邮件地址或UMA地址？这是目标。你认为更多的钱会通过这些“闪电”通道以法定货币形式发送，而不是用以Satoshi形式发送吗？或者说，你觉得将来会发生什么？人们会实际如何使用这种能力和现实？ 我的想法是，比特币在这种情况下就像是数据包，如果用互联网类比的话。比特币就像是在“闪电网络”之上的数据包，而闪电网络就类似于TCP/IP。因此，你可以在一秒钟内把货币转换成最中立的形式的数字互联网货币，以便这种价值可以在互联网本地传输到它需要去的地方。

So it's cash final, real time settlement, which is magical because right now if you think about the correspondent banking and Swift and all these things, the money doesn't actually move at the time the transaction happens. It's just database changes at the edges, but then people have to net settle later and it's all kinds of complications that are unneeded. In this case, money moves on the internet natively, which is our goal is to try to make money move natively on the internet like every other piece of data. And then it gets converted at the edges to whatever you want. And I think that's the way that most people are going to use it for a while, except if you're in a country where, of course, people mis-manage their currency, and in which case you might want to receive those payments in Bitcoin, which is of course natively supported by the protocol.

所以这是即时结算、实时结算的现金支付系统，这非常神奇。因为目前，如果你考虑到代理银行和Swift系统等，资金在交易发生时实际上并不会立即移动。只是数据库边缘的数据变化过后，人们还要进行净结算等各种不必要的复杂操作。在这种情况下，资金能像其他任何数据一样在互联网上本地移动，这是我们的目标：让资金在互联网上本地移动。然后在边缘部分将其转换为你想要的任何货币。我认为，大多数人会用这种方式一段时间，除非你所在的国家货币管理不当，那时你可能希望以比特币接收付款，而比特币当然是这个协议本地支持的。

So is lightning the internet of money? I certainly hope so. If we're moving down the internet of money timeline, I'm thinking back to the, like 1994 and some random entrepreneurs in Arlington, Virginia, came to my office there pitching me on the internet thing and they told us our company needed a website. And I don't know, sometime thereafter, the big idea was I thought maybe I should buy up strategy.com or michael.com or michael.com or hope.com, because it'd be really cool to have an email address like me at Michael. And then I thought about these other addressing implications and now 30 years has gone by.

那么，闪电网络是金钱的互联网吗？我当然希望如此。如果我们正在沿着金钱互联网的发展时间线前进，我回想起1994年的时候，一些在弗吉尼亚州阿灵顿的随机企业家来到我的办公室，向我推销互联网的概念，他们告诉我们公司需要一个网站。之后不久，我想到了一个大点子，可能我应该买下 strategy.com 或 michael.com 或 hope.com 之类的域名，因为拥有一个像 me@Michael 这样的电子邮件地址会非常酷。然后我还考虑了其他地址的含义，现在已经过去了30年。

So the question now is if the internet money is just breaking, is it where are we and maybe more importantly, how many companies are going to start working with this technology over the next four years, and then the four years thereafter, and if you had to look out over the next 10 to 12 years or something, how do you think this is going to develop? So my bet is, let's take 10 years. My bet is in 10 years, every company in the world that needs to send payments cross-border will use lightning to do that. Either knowingly or not knowingly, but the underlying technology that will transport value cross-border for the world will be lightning for any consumer and any company. And when you think about the opportunity, the opportunity is enormous. Like right now, Swift slash correspondent banking processes still about $5 trillion a day. And that's with all of the constraints, right?

现在的问题是，互联网货币是否真的在崛起？我们目前处于哪个阶段？更重要的是，在接下来的四年里，将会有多少公司开始使用这项技术？再往后的四年呢？如果我们展望接下来的10到12年，这种技术会如何发展？我猜测，以10年来看，我的赌注是，10年后，世界上所有需要跨境支付的公司都会使用闪电网络进行支付。不论是自觉地还是不自觉地，跨境传输价值的基础技术将会是闪电网络，无论是对消费者还是公司来说都是如此。谈到机会，这个机会是巨大的。目前，SWIFT和代理银行系统每天仍处理约5万亿美元的交易量，这还是在所有限制条件下的结果。

You can't do it after 5 p.m. You can't do it Friday night or over the weekends. It's costly to send an international wire. So maybe it's not five. It's maybe it's $50 trillion a day of value that really wants to travel, but it's constrained by the current limitations of the system. And so all of that will actually transit onto lightning and use Bitcoin as a neutral, almost TCPIP packet or neutral value, digital form of value on the Internet. And that's an enormous opportunity for all of us. And certainly for us, if we succeed in helping making that happen on an open network like lightning.

你不能在下午5点以后进行这个操作。你不能在周五晚上或周末进行。这么做发送国际电汇的成本很高。所以可能不是五美元，而是每天有大约50万亿美元的资金想要流通，但却受到当前系统限制的约束。因此，所有这些资金最终会通过闪电网络传输，并使用比特币作为一种中立的、类似TCPIP数据包或数字形式的价值载体在互联网上流通。对于我们所有人来说，这是一个巨大的机会。特别是对我们来说，如果我们成功地在像闪电网络这样的开放网络上推动这一进程，将是非常有利的。

So people talk about one month settlement or one day or two days settlement, and you're describing a possible world where it's like one second settlement, right? So we're going from a day to a second or? Yes. I don't know what the order of magnitude difference is. How many seconds in the day or in the month? And then I guess we're going, in theory, we're going from a $10 fee or a 2% fee. So what are the fees going to be? What do you think is the, what's the cost difference in the conventional credit networks like these in MasterCard versus the systems you're rolling out? Like, how did it cost in the friction?

所以，人们谈论的是一个月结算、一日结算或两日结算，而你描述的是一个可能的世界，其中结算时间可以缩短到一秒钟，对吧？也就是说，我们从一天的结算时间减少到一秒钟？是的。我不太清楚这种数量级的变化。一天或一个月有多少秒？那么，我猜我们理论上会从10美元的手续费或2%的手续费变成什么样的费用？你觉得在传统信用网络，比如万事达卡，和你们推出的系统相比，费用差异会有多大？它们的摩擦成本是多少？

Well, I think, you know, if we compare apples to apples, which is like not in time to settle, but cost-wise. Like if you look at wires, international wires are swift or, you know, average cost between $40 and $50 for consumers or even businesses to initiate and complete a wire. And so, you know, right now, that also prevents you from sending small amounts. On lightning, you could send 10 cents and make it very cost-effective and, you know, pay a very small fee. And so payments could actually really stream and flow on the internet natively 24-7, where value will accrue to where it needs to go. We're also moving to a world where AI agents are going to become more prevalent transactional agents on our behalfs and on behalf of our company, where we're going to give the authority through AI agents to accomplish a task and net settle with one another.

嗯，我认为，如果我们比较同类事物，比如不是在结算时间上的比较，而是在成本上的比较。比如说，如果你看国际电汇，通常通过SWIFT系统进行，消费者或企业发起和完成一次电汇的平均成本在40到50美元之间。因此，这也阻止了你发送小额资金。然而，在闪电网络上，你可以发送10美分，小额付款非常划算，只需支付很小的费用。这样付款可以真正全天候在互联网上流动，资金能够迅速流向需要去的地方。我们也在走向一个由AI代理更频繁地代表我们和我们的公司进行交易的世界，我们会授权AI代理完成任务并相互结算。

So what currency are they going to use to net settle value natively in real time at a low cost on the Internet? I can't think of any other than Bitcoin that's neutral enough for everyone to accept it as a standard. That's also a big opportunity on top of lightning as we change our modalities of moving value around the world. Yeah, I always thought of it as like achieving superconductions or, you know, low impedance friction-free or high frequency. I mean, there are certain applications you can't even think about in the old world. Like how would you swap money back and forth 100 times an hour or 100 times a minute?

那么，他们将在互联网上使用什么货币来以低成本、实时地进行净结算？我想不出除了比特币之外还有其他任何币种能中立到让所有人都接受它作为标准的选择。这也是我们在改变全球价值转移方式时，闪电网络所带来的一个巨大机会。是的，我一直把它看作是实现超导或者低阻抗、无摩擦或高频率的价值传输。旧世界中根本无法想象某些应用场景。比如，你怎么在每小时交换资金100次，甚至每分钟交换100次呢？

You wouldn't, yeah, which sounds too fast, but if you're a musician, you know, that vibration doesn't seem that bad at all. But it takes me to the next question, which is, so what kind of companies do you think would benefit from this? And what kind of killer apps or what kind of applications are going to drive corporate adoption? So what we're doing right now is really getting all of the endpoints that are compatible with the existing payment rails and that have the ability to onboard the liquidity from existing endpoints that contain regular money onto this digital transactional network. And so those are the exchanges, those are the banks that, you know, can touch Bitcoin, those are, you know, different institutions that do that.

这听起来可能有点快，但如果你是音乐人，你会知道这种震动其实并没有那么糟糕。但这引出了我的下一个问题，究竟什么样的公司会从中受益？又有哪些关键应用或杀手级应用能推动企业采用这种技术？我们现在正在做的是整合所有兼容现有支付系统的终端设备，并且能够将现有终端设备中的常规资金转移到这个数字交易网络中的设备。因此，这包括了交易所、可以涉及比特币的银行和其他相关机构。

But in a world where you'll have hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people that have an address for money that can be settled in real time and the currency if they're choosing, you can imagine all kinds of new applications, streaming money to endpoints is one of them, new forms of payments for merchants that would reach new audiences or new clients' bases that they can't reach, the ability to create brand new business models to enable people to actually contribute to anything that you're building from anywhere around the world. It will do to the world, I believe it will do to the world and have an impact to the world that, you know, is going to be as important as the Internet itself was in its own time for communications and for how much faster we're moving now for better or worse, but like we're, you know, we went from the fax era to the Internet era of email and instant messaging, but many people when they were faxing back and forth, you know, and you told them like there's an Internet now that's coming and you'll be able to do email and all kinds of things like, I don't need this, it's fine, right? And now, like who's sending a fax, right?

但在一个拥有数亿、甚至数十亿人都可以实时结算资金的世界里，你可以想象出各种新的应用，其中之一就是将资金流向特定终端。此外，商家可以通过新形式的支付方式接触到以前无法触及的新受众或新客户群体，这还使得可以创造全新的商业模式，让世界各地的人们能够实质性地为你的任何项目做出贡献。我相信，这对世界的影响将会如同互联网在其时代对通信和提高效率所带来的影响一样重要。不管是好是坏，我们从传真时代进入了互联网时代，使用电子邮件和即时消息，但很多人在传真时，你告诉他们将来有互联网、可以发电子邮件，他们会说不需要，这很好。可是现在，还有谁在发送传真呢？

So, you know, I think that that's going to happen to payments and the way money moves around the world and it's going to happen in this coming decade. And so I think that for everyone here, it's important to pay attention to this, to stay close to this, to get ahead of your competition, to, especially if, you know, parts of what you do depend on moving money faster around the world and building a better experience for your stakeholders. When do you think the big tech players like Apple or Google or your former employer, Microsoft start to take notice and integrate or play in this kind of ecosystem? I think we're not far. I think, you know, we're just getting to the stage where we've made lightning really usable by people who are in the business of moving Bitcoin around the world.

所以，你知道，我认为支付方式和全球资金流动将在这个十年内发生变化。所以我觉得在场的每个人都很有必要关注这点，密切关注这个变化，领先于你的竞争对手。尤其是当你的工作的一部分依赖于更快速地全球资金流动，以及为你的利益相关者打造更好的体验时。这么说吧，你认为像苹果、谷歌或你之前的雇主微软这样的科技巨头什么时候会注意到并整合或者参与到这个生态系统中？我认为已经不远了，我们正处于让闪电网络真正对那些从事比特币全球流动业务的人来说可用的阶段。

If you were to do that like two years ago, that's why many even large exchanges weren't on lightning until recently. It's just like the amount of complexity that comes with lightning. If you're trying to do it yourself with no software or help is just, you know, very high, especially if you want compliance and high reliability and the ability to have like very high performance.

如果你在两年前那样做的话，这就是为什么许多大型交易所直到最近才开始使用闪电网络。因为闪电网络带来的复杂性非常大。如果你尝试自己去做，没有软件或帮助的情况下，特别是如果你还希望实现合规、高可靠性和高性能，那难度就非常高。

And so that's just now. That's the now. And so now that all of these companies that are actually bringing the bridges to the traditional financial system onto the network are connecting to the network at a higher clip. Now we can build applications. So UMA is one of such applications like, and it's an open source standard. Everyone can build on it. They don't need to become a client of Lightspark to do that.

这就是现在的情况。现在，所有这些实际上将传统金融系统连接到网络的公司，都在以更高的速度接入网络。现在我们可以开始构建应用程序了。UMA就是这样的一种应用，它是一个开源标准，任何人都可以在其上开发，不需要成为Lightspark的客户。

Some people are actually doing it like some companies are implementing UMA without like us being part of it. But that is kind of the moment where this network becomes usable by consumers in a way that's like understandable without any of the complexity of Bitcoin or crypto or payments that are needing a new modality. And I think that once you have enough consumers that are using that, which is happening right now, then other larger tech platforms will pay more attention.

有些人和公司实际上已经在实施UMA（如同一些公司在没有我们的参与下已经开始实施）。这是一个网络变得对消费者可用的时刻，且这种可用性是可以理解的，不需要涉及比特币或加密货币那些复杂的支付模式。我认为，一旦有足够多的消费者开始使用这种方式（目前这种情况正在发生），其他更大的科技平台也会更加关注。

Because then they can actually, you know, take a look at the data. They, you know, take huge advantage. Like they can benefit from that and offer better services in businesses that are very global by nature. So could anybody spin up a company in Africa or South America or Asia and start to work with these protocols? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. How do you balance in your R&D effort? How do you balance the work that you do that you make proprietary with intent to sell to your enterprise customers versus the work that you put into the layer to open protocol?

因为他们可以实际地查看数据，利用这些数据来获得巨大的优势。比如，他们可以从中受益，并在全球化的业务中提供更好的服务。那么，有人可以在非洲、南美或亚洲创建一家公司并开始使用这些协议吗？是的，绝对可以，百分之百可以。那么你在研发工作中如何平衡呢？你如何在为企业客户销售的专有技术和投入到开放协议层的工作之间做出平衡呢？

Yeah, that's something we give a lot of thought to when we build something. And to the extent possible, we try to make things more open source and, you know, give it to the community so they can build their own solutions. And I think that's really important. For instance, I, you know, having very, very high quality self custody lightning wallets, I think is very important for the network and something that we want to contribute to and help companies building because the openness of the network over the long run is what's going to make this payment network different than closed networks that are the ones dominating right now.

是的，这是我们在构建某样东西时非常重视的一点。我们尽可能地尝试使其更开源，并将它交给社区，这样他们就可以构建自己的解决方案。我认为这非常重要。比如，我觉得拥有非常高质量的自托管闪电钱包对这个网络非常重要，我们希望为此做出贡献，帮助相关公司进行开发。因为从长远来看，网络的开放性才是让这个支付网络与当前主导市场的封闭网络不同的关键。

And so having open networks, having many participants building, having the entire Bitcoin community advancing the state of the art of the capabilities that we can build on top of lightning and across Bitcoin is really vital. And so we want to contribute to that as much as possible. When you think about corporate adoption of digital payments and lightning, do you see a world where it's thousands of companies, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions? Definitely millions. It's like everyone.

所以，拥有开放的网络，吸引众多参与者一起构建，让整个比特币社区共同推动技术的进步，这对我们能够在闪电网络和比特币之上进行创新非常重要。因此，我们希望尽可能多地贡献力量。谈到企业采用数字支付和闪电网络，你能想象一个有上千、上万、几十万甚至几百万公司的世界吗？肯定是几百万。几乎是每个人都会用。

Any company and companies, you know, I think during the river presentation earlier, Alex showed like, you know, how big the global trade or the global movement of money is for companies. Versus consumers. And so companies in nature are more multinational than consumers and they need to move money around for themselves, for their partners, for their stakeholders. And so having the ability to do that in a more efficient way in real time, not having to have a lot of liquidity sitting in foreign bank accounts exposed to effects risk, you know, just being able to repatriate all of that money and send payments to where they need to be when they need to get there. That's going to be transformational for many, many companies.

任何公司和企业，你知道，我想在之前的河流报告中，Alex展示了全球贸易或全球资本流动对公司而言规模有多大。相较于消费者，公司本质上更具跨国性，他们需要为自身、合作伙伴和利益相关者进行资金流动。因此，能够以更高效的方式实时进行这些操作，不需要在外国银行账户中保留大量资金暴露在汇率风险下，只需将所有资金调回本国并在需要时将付款发送到需要的地方，这对许多公司来说将是革命性的。

Okay, so now I'm going to ask you a hard question. You've got dozens and dozens of customers all around the world. We're talking about the digital transformation of payments and digital transactions and pure digital, you know, money moving the speed of light. Do you think, you know, and that's against the backdrop of, you know, Elon says he wants to make ex Twitter payments platform and then you've got Google and Apple Pay and then you've got innovators like Cash App that are very aggressive in river and you've got the Bitcoin players and then you've got the US ecosystem, the European ecosystem, South America, I was just in Brazil. They seem to be very, almost more enthusiastic than the US. So if you had the handicap, who's going to drive the digital transformation or who gets it or who will be most aggressive? Will it be traditional banks in the US or Europe or South America? Will it be the mega tax? Will it be mid-size fintechs? You know, you know PayPal thinks, you know, you see Cash App. Will it be pure Bitcoin companies? Will it be some crypto entrepreneurs or crypto exchanges? You know, at some point someone's going to push, get a massive success and stampede everybody else here. But if you had to guess who's going to be the torch bear here, how would you handicap that or assess the situation?

好的，现在我要问你一个难题。你在全球有几十个客户。我们在讨论支付和数字交易的数字化转型，纯数字，像光速般的资金流动。你觉得，在这种背景下，比如埃隆说他想把X（原Twitter）打造成支付平台，还有谷歌和苹果支付，以及像Cash App这样积极进取的创新者，还有比特币企业，美国生态系统、欧洲生态系统、南美洲的生态系统。我刚到过巴西，他们似乎比美国还更加热情。 所以，如果你要预测，谁将推动数字化转型，谁更理解这个领域，或谁将最为积极呢？会是美国或欧洲的传统银行，还是南美的？会是大型科技公司吗？还是中型金融科技公司，比如PayPal或Cash App？会是纯比特币公司，还是某些加密货币企业或加密货币交易所？总有一天会有人取得巨大的成功并引领潮流。但如果你要预测谁将成为这个领域的领导者，你会如何评估和判断这个情况呢？

I think it's going to be companies that, in the payment space, build the best consumer experience tapping into domestic payment rails and building the best possible experience domestically. So think of like in the US, Venmo, Cash App, etc. But that then do a similar excellent job at connecting on top of something like lightning with something like UMA or an addressing scheme that enables them to have maximum network reach of moving money in the currency that people want to the endpoint they want in a second at a very low cost. And I think the combination, by the way, that combination and the way that it comes across to consumers needs to be completely transparent.

我认为，在支付领域，将会是那些利用国内支付系统、打造最佳消费者体验的公司脱颖而出。比如在美国，有Venmo和Cash App等等。这些公司能出色地利用类似闪电网络的技术和诸如UMA之类的寻址方案，实现快速、低成本地将钱转移到人们想要的终端，以他们需要的货币进行交易。此外，我还认为，这种结合以及它呈现给消费者的方式必须是完全透明的。

So you're using a payment app and at some point you're going to use, like if you're in Brazil, you're going to use PIX for a domestic payment in Brazil. But now you're sending money to the US. Now I'm using, you know, lightning, but as a consumer, I don't know. I'm just sending re-eyes to someone who wants to receive dollars in the US. And I don't need to know it's lightning, but the companies that are going to build the best hybrid experience of bringing the best of domestic, fast, real-time payment systems and global interoperability onto lightning in a super consumer friendly way are the ones that are going to break through. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

所以你在使用一个支付应用，然后有时候你会，比如说你在巴西，你会用PIX进行巴西国内的支付。但是现在你要把钱汇到美国，这时候我用的是闪电网络（Lightning Network）。不过作为一个消费者，我并不需要知道这些细节。我只是把雷亚尔（巴西货币）发送给希望在美国收到美元的人。我不需要知道这是通过闪电网络完成的，但是那些公司如果能结合国内快速实时支付系统和全球互操作性，创造出一种对消费者非常友好的混合支付体验，那这些公司就会脱颖而出。我对此深信不疑。

Okay. So I guess we're agreed that this is coming and it's going to be a big deal. We've got a lot of corporate executives and IT professionals and other business leaders in the audience. What kind of advice would you give them as they proceed in their digital transformation journey if they want to put pure digital payments and your technology into their products or services? So I think, you know, first of all, you know, pay attention because like it's changing very slowly and then all suddenly. And you want to be part of the first batch when it happens suddenly and not be left behind. And I think that's really critical.

好的。所以我想我们一致认为这件事即将到来，而且会带来很大的影响。我们在场有很多企业高管、IT专业人士以及其他商业领袖。对于那些在进行数字化转型，并希望将纯数字支付和你的技术融入到他们的产品或服务中的人，你会给他们什么建议？ 我认为，首先，要注意这个变化，因为它通常是缓慢发生的，然后会突然全面爆发。你希望在变化突然爆发时成为第一批抓住机会的人，而不是被落在后面。我觉得这是非常关键的。

And so the way to do that is really try to figure out like what are the use cases in your companies that need to be revolutionized or that need to evolve when it comes to moving money, between endpoints where you need money to move and ask yourself the question, can I actually use these new technologies to move money to where it needs to be faster than my competition, cheaper than my competition? Can I have a competitive edge by doing that? And if so, there are lots of solutions out there and, you know, certainly we can help, but there are lots of solutions out there to actually plug into it, even if you don't touch Bitcoin. You can connect to the Lightning Network and move dollars to another endpoints that needs to receive another currency on Lightning. So pay attention, try to figure out whether they're good use cases where you can start small experiments with it and then, you know, use it full-scale once you're confident that it's built the right way. But it's coming and it's coming sooner than you think.

那么，实现这一目标的方法就是试着弄清楚，你们公司有哪些用例需要在资金流动方面进行革新或改进。思考一下：我是否可以利用这些新技术，比竞争对手更快、更便宜地将资金转移到需要的地方？通过这样做，我能否获得竞争优势？如果能的话，现在有很多解决方案，即使你们不使用比特币，也可以接入这些解决方案。你可以连入闪电网络，将美元转移到另一个需要接收其他货币的端点。因此，要关注这一点，尝试找到可以进行小规模实验的合适用例，然后一旦你确定系统构建得当，就可以全面使用它。这个趋势正在到来，而且速度比你想象的要快。

How long would it take from the point that someone picks up the phone and calls you to the point when they could deploy a solution like Coinbase just did? So it depends on the type of integration. On the back-hand side, and, you know, without getting too much into the details, but we have a simple version of the implementation. In that version, you know, within a few days, you can be up and running, sending and receiving Bitcoin to the other side of the world in real time at a very low cost. UMA, if you have a consumer-facing implementation that you need to do, takes a little bit more time because you need to integrate with your front-end. There's a bunch of front-end work. And so I say, if it's just back-end, it's probably, you know, a couple of weeks of work with testing, et cetera, that will enable you to do that.

从有人打电话联系你，到像Coinbase一样部署解决方案，需要多长时间？这取决于集成的类型。在后端方面，简单版本的实施相对容易。通过这种版本，你可以在几天内开始运行，以极低的成本实时发送和接收比特币到世界另一端。 如果你需要做一个面向消费者的实施，则需要更多时间，因为需要与前端进行集成，有很多前端工作要做。所以我认为，如果只是后端的工作，可能需要几周的时间进行测试等工作，才能完成。

And then we have partners. Like, you know, we have partners. Like, you know, one of them is called ZeroHash. It can enable you to actually connect to our stack without touching Bitcoin. And they will basically take care of the conversion for you to have access to the lightning network. There's a number of different ways that we can help you get onto the network without, like, getting deep into Bitcoin rails. So that means that pretty much there's no reason why every crypto custodian or Bitcoin custodian in the world shouldn't be integrating lightning. Into their service stack. Correct. There were lots of good reasons for them not to do this or not to prioritize this work until recently. Now there's absolutely no reason left.

然后我们还有合作伙伴。比如说，我们有一个叫做ZeroHash的合作伙伴。它可以让你在不接触比特币的情况下连接到我们的技术堆栈。基本上，他们会帮你完成转换，让你能接入闪电网络。我们有很多不同的方法可以帮助你进入网络，而无需深入了解比特币的运作。所以，基本上没有任何理由能解释为什么全世界的加密货币托管服务商或比特币托管服务商不应该将闪电网络整合到他们的服务堆栈中。之前确实有很多正当理由让他们不这样做或不优先考虑这项工作，但是现在这些理由都不存在了。

Yeah, so everybody, it's a customer of some Bitcoin company that doesn't support lightning. You might want to go lobby because now it can be done quickly. Totally. Effectively. And then, like, and then the cost of managing that network to make it, like, super high performance and reliable is completely gone. It used to be, you know, quite intensive. Okay, so there are trolls and haters on the internet that complain that lightning is not as reliable as they'd like it to be. What do you have to say to them? Tell us about your experience with lightning, reliability, robustness, and how would you assess the fault tolerance of the network? I mean, my best answer is just, you know, now if you have a Coinbase account, like, you know, I don't think it's rolled out to 100% yet, but it'll be soon. Many people around the world have a Coinbase that can just try it for yourself.

好的，各位，现在有一家不支持闪电网络的比特币公司的客户，你们可能想去呼吁一下，因为现在可以快速实现，完全有效。而且管理这个网络的成本已经完全消失了，曾经需要大量资源。好吧，网上有一些喷子和黑子抱怨闪电网络不像他们希望的那样可靠。对此你有什么要说的？告诉我们你对闪电网络在可靠性和稳健性方面的经验，你会如何评估这个网络的容错能力？我的最佳回答是，现在如果你有一个Coinbase账户，虽然我不认为已经完全推出，但很快就会有了。世界上许多拥有Coinbase账户的人可以自己试一试。

Like put it to the test and see if it works or doesn't work. And you'll find out that works really, really well. And it's really magical when you can press a send button and send money around the world. And it arrives a second later with huge reliability. I think, you know, it's a magical experience. And so you can try it for yourself. So I don't like to talk about these things. I like for people to actually do it and try for themselves and find out for themselves. But I think, you know, the critics were critical of lightning for a reason. If you're spinning up your node, and you're trying to find out who you're going to connect and open channels with other nodes to move value around the lightning network.

就像把它拿去测试一下，看看它是否有用。你会发现它确实非常有效。当你按下发送按钮，将钱转到世界另一端，并且它只需要一秒钟就能到达，且可靠性极高时，这真是非常神奇的体验。我觉得这真的很值得尝试。所以我不喜欢过多地谈论这些事情，我更喜欢人们亲自去试试，自己去发现它的神奇之处。不过我认为批评者之所以对闪电网络持批评态度是有原因的。比如，你在启动自己的节点，尝试找出要连接哪些节点，以及如何与其他节点打开通道以在闪电网络中传递价值。

And then you're trying to have the liquidity in the right place so that you can receive payments. You have to have enough inbound liquidity. And then, you know, the minute you receive a payment, your channel is all unbalanced. You need to rebalance that channel. And then you have to figure out how you spread split payments into multi-part payments, et cetera. Like all of these things are, like the haters are right. That if you have to go do all of these things, you know, it's just, it doesn't compute. It's too complicated. The same way that, like, no one is racking servers and configuring routers, like the physical router anymore, because now you use AWS and all these things.

然后，你需要把流动性放在合适的位置，这样你才能接收付款。你必须有足够的入站流动性。接着，当你接收到付款的那一刻，你的通道就会失衡。你需要重新平衡那个通道。然后，你还得弄清楚如何把支付分成多个部分进行传递，等等。就像批评者说的那样，如果你不得不做所有这些事情，这确实是无法接受的，太复杂了。就像现在没人再去安装服务器和配置路由器了，因为现在大家都用AWS和类似的服务。

And it's easy. And now, you know, a lot of people can focus on what matters to their business rather than racking servers. Same is true for lightning. And that wasn't true before. But now, it's really as easy as it can be. So you're providing an enterprise-grade lightning platform that allows corporations to plug in in a high-performance fault-tolerant, compliant fashion. Correct. And that's been available for how long? Well, I mean, I think, you know, the level at which we're now is just, you know, probably being, you know, nine months, I would say. So it's still pretty recent. So, so you're here, right? This is year one of an explosive opportunity. Is it reasonable to say at this point that, you know, given the fact that lightning on top of Bitcoin allows instant final settlement, not just to Bitcoin, but of other fiat currencies, doesn't it mean that we've now got a solution, which is faster, cheaper, more reliable than any other crypto rails for moving stuff around the world? So I think on the efficiency side, it's at par with other solutions that are out there, but there's a distinction, and I'm glad you asked a question. Other competitive solutions or different alternatives could be, you know, you use, you know, stablecoins on, you know, roll up or stablecoins on top of. How's it going to be stable, tether on Tron? Yeah, so that, for instance. And, and I think for a bunch of different use cases, this might be good. But the problem is in this case, when you think about decentralization, you're actually trusting one centralized company to not mess this up. And the one thing I learned through the Libra journey is that doesn't really work long term, right? It can work for specific use cases where it's just an optimization. But I think that the centralization of trust is a problem if you want a truly neutral settlement network that enables people to really trust that no one's going to mess up with the network that moves money for everyone around the world.

这很简单。现在，很多人可以把精力集中在他们的业务上，而不是去维护服务器。闪电网络也是一样的道理。以前确实不是这样的，但现在已经变得非常简单了。所以你正在提供一个企业级的闪电平台，允许企业以高性能、容错和合规的方式接入。对吧？这个平台已经推出多久了？嗯，我认为我们目前的水平可能已经达到了大概九个月，所以还比较新。因此，你现在处在一个爆发性机遇的第一年。是否可以合理地说，现在闪电网络加上比特币不仅能实现即时终结的结算，也能为其他法币提供同样的服务，这意味着我们找到了一个比任何其他加密方式都要快、便宜、可靠的全球资金转移解决方案？我认为在效率方面，它与其他现有的解决方案不相上下，但有一个区别，我很高兴你问到了这个问题。其他竞争性解决方案或者不同的选择可能是你使用稳定币，例如在某种链上滚动或使用稳定币，再比如在Tron上的泰达币。这些在一些不同的应用场景下可能会很好用。但问题在于，当你考虑去中心化时，你实际上是在信任一个中心化公司不会搞砸。而我在Libra项目中学到的一点是，这长期来看并不行。它可能适用于特定的应用场景，只是为了优化。但我认为，如果你想要一个真正中立的结算网络，让人们真正相信不会有人搞砸这个全球转移资金的网络，那么中心化的信任是个问题。

And certainly not like, you know, a centralized corporation managing the entire thing, because then you're back to the point of the starting point. And it's not a truly open thing like the internet, right? And so that's the thing I learned a really hard way on the Libra journey is that if you build any point, any single point of failure, then eventually you'll have a problem. And lightning is the decentralized, fault-tolerant, non-custodial solution to all those crypto token networks that are collapsing. We've got a little bit of time left. Would you want to take some questions from the audience? I'd love that. Okay. So. Hi, David. I'm John Kim. What is your feelings about taboo assets? So the question, I don't know whether people can hear, so I'm going to repeat it. We'll have to write your repeat to question. So the question was about taboo assets. So I actually think that, you know, bringing stablecoins, other assets, other tokens on top of Bitcoin and lightning is now an inevitable thing. And so there's taboo assets. There's a bunch of others that are also trying, you know, similar protocols to bring assets on top of lightning. And one part of me is super excited about that. This idea that you can bring stablecoins and optimize specific transactions that are in the same currency from the center and receiver without having to do the conversion, which I think is going to be net positive.

当然，绝对不能像一个中心化的公司那样管理整个系统，因为那样你就回到了起点。这样的话，它就不再像互联网那样是真正开放的了。所以这是我在Libra项目中学到的一个非常艰难的教训，如果你在任何一点上建立了单点故障，那么最终你会遇到问题。而Lightning是分散的、容错的、非托管的解决方案，适用于那些正在崩溃的加密代币网络。我们还有一点时间，你想回答一些观众的问题吗？我很乐意。好的。那么，嗨，David，我是John Kim，你对禁忌资产有何看法？因为有些人可能听不到问题，所以我会重复一下。问题是关于禁忌资产的。实际上，我认为在比特币和Lightning网络之上引入稳定币、其他资产和代币是不可避免的事情。有一些禁忌资产，还有很多其他人也在尝试类似的协议来在Lightning网络之上引入资产。我的一部分对此非常兴奋，这种想法是，你可以在中心和接收者之间的相同货币中引入稳定币并优化特定交易，而不需要进行转换，我认为这将是一个积极的结果。

And one side of me is terrified about this idea that something huge could be built upon a centralized thing on top of Bitcoin, which has the beautiful nature of being truly decentralized and truly neutral. So I'm equally excited and terrified about this thing. Okay, next. Hi, so if you think about sending value internationally and say, for example, if I want to remit some money to India using lightning, how does it work from legal perspective and capital controls and how do you get around that from different jurisdictions which have different controls? How does it work? So we don't typically go around these things. We just abide by them. But so the way it works is that, you know, if you're using the UMA standard, the universal money address standard, the center and receivers can like know, you know, which institution is in which jurisdiction. And it's a pre-transaction messaging protocol. And so you can exchange the information that is required by your domestic regulatory regime.

一方面，我对在比特币之上的中心化事物可能建立起庞大系统的想法感到恐惧，因为比特币具有真正去中心化和真正中立的美好特性。所以我对这个事情既感到兴奋又感到害怕。好，接下来。 你好，如果你考虑用比特币闪电网络进行国际汇款，比如说我要给印度汇款，从法律角度和资本控制来看，这是如何操作的？如何应对不同司法管辖区的不同控制措施？这个是如何运行的？ 我们通常不绕过这些问题，我们只是遵守它们。假如你使用的是UMA标准，即通用货币地址标准，发送方和接收方可以了解对方的机构所在的司法管辖区。这是一个交易前的消息传递协议，因此你可以交换国内监管机构所要求的信息。

So for instance, now in Europe, travel rule is becoming a big deal and they need to validate that. So you can do that natively within UMA. And the same is true in this case. Like, you know, if you're authorized as a regulated institution in India to receive international payments or send international payments, then you'll be able to do that. And you'll be able to have the right data exchange with the other institution to meet your compliance requirements. And that's all built into the protocol. And because it's a pre-transaction messaging product or rather standard, that actually enables you to not get in trouble for accepting transactions that you shouldn't be accepting in the first place. Yes. Yes.

例如，目前在欧洲，旅行规则变得相当重要，他们需要对此进行验证。在UMA的框架下，你可以原生地完成这一点。同样的情况也适用于此。如果你是一家在印度获得授权的受监管机构，可以接收或发送国际付款，那么你就能够进行这些操作。你还能够与其他机构进行数据交换，以满足合规要求。这些都内置在协议中了。而且，因为这是一个交易前的消息传递产品或标准，它实际上能帮助你避免接受那些本不应该接受的交易带来的麻烦。是的，是这样的。

I have a question about sending Bitcoin through Coinbase internationally to, let's say, employees in India or the Philippines. If you buy it as property, but then you send it, can you expense it, but you're sending property. So it's, how is that handled IRS-wise? Okay. So tax law question, who wants to answer that? I'm not the right guy for that. Yeah, I don't, I mean, look, if you're on, so let me answer the question on that. Be handled by the platform, you would think.

我有一个问题，关于通过Coinbase将比特币国际汇款给印度或菲律宾的员工。如果你买它作为财产，但随后你将它发送出去，你可以把它作为费用，但你发送的是财产。所以，这在美国国税局（IRS）方面是如何处理的？好吧，这是个税务法律问题，谁想回答这个？我不是这方面的专家。对，我也不知道，我的意思是，听着，如果你在这个平台上操作，你会认为它会被平台处理。

Yeah, on, like, if you're sending and receiving, let's say, you know, dollars to someone, let's say in Brazil who's receiving Brazilian reis, right? You're sending dollars, it gets transmitted with Bitcoin that gets repurposed, right? You know, it's a, it's a little bit like, you know, if you're, like, if you think about the, the, the small Bitcoin that is moving around like an Uber car on the Uber network, it's going to transport that passenger to the endpoint. And then it's going to make the trip back. And so basically, you're, you're settling from a tax perspective like an international effects transaction and not like you're moving your own Bitcoin to another person. And I would say if you're just moving your Bitcoin, one Bitcoin from one custodian to another, it's, it's just a transfer of your own property from a customer. If it's your self, yeah, it wouldn't be taxable.

是的，比如说你在发送和接收美元，假设你要给巴西的某个人汇款，对方收到的是巴西雷亚尔，对吧？你发送的是美元，传输过程中使用比特币来兑换。这个过程有点像你在Uber网络上叫车一样，小额的比特币就像Uber车一样在传送，载着乘客到达目的地，然后再返回。因此，从税务角度来看，你实际上是进行了一次国际外汇交易，而不是将自己的比特币转移给另一个人。如果你只是将一个比特币从一个托管方转移到另一个托管方，那只是属于个人财产的转移。如果是你自己转移，那是无需缴税的。

Yeah. If you're actually selling it in order to convert it to a currency, then there's going to be a taxable event one way or the other. But that would be handled by the platform that sold it. You would handle it there. Okay. Hey, David, quick question here. So in 2019, you testified in front of Congress. My finest moment. It was awesome. So now five years later, how would you view the regulators or Congress? Do they understand it? Or they don't? What's your sentiment of view of how they look at it, these transactions? They understand it better than when I testified, I think. I think that there are more and more people on the Hill who really understand it, and especially Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin has a very special status. And the land of, if you think of crypto as a whole, I think Bitcoin has a very special status in the sense that it's truly neutral. And I think many, many people on the Hill really understand that. And I think you're seeing now all of the very large Bitcoin ETFs that have come to the market from BlackRock and Fidelity and others.

是的。如果你真的要卖掉它并转换成货币的话，那么无论如何都会产生纳税事件。但这会由销售平台来处理，你只需在那边处理就可以了。好的。嘿，David，有个简短问题。在2019年，你曾在国会作证，那是你最辉煌的时刻，非常棒。那么现在五年过去了，你如何看待监管机构或国会呢？他们理解了吗？或者没有？你对他们如何看待这些交易有什么看法？ 我觉得他们比我作证时理解得要好了。我认为现在国会山上有越来越多的人真正了解它，特别是比特币。我认为比特币有一个非常特殊的地位。在加密货币整体中，如果你这么想的话，比特币有一个非常特殊的地位，因为它是真正中立的。我认为现在国会山上有很多人都真正理解这一点。而且你现在也可以看到，像贝莱德和富达等公司推出的非常大型的比特币ETF已经进入市场。

And so I think that at this stage, even if the image of the Hill or regulators can seem to be more hostile to the industry in general, I think that when it comes to Bitcoin, the status of play is really clear. And that's why very large regulated institutions feel comfortable enough to actually move forward and issue brand new products that have a lot of reach with the confidence that they're in within the rails of the current regulation and loss. So I think we're in a much better place. I feel like when we try to do what we try to do with Libra and DM, it was a very novel concept.

所以，我认为在这个阶段，即使国会山或监管机构对整个行业的态度看起来更为敌对，但在比特币的问题上，情况实际上非常明朗。这就是为什么一些大型受监管机构敢于推进并发行全新产品，因为他们确信这些产品符合现行的法规和法律。所以我觉得我们的处境比以前好很多。我觉得当我们尝试做Libra和DM时，那是一个非常新颖的概念。

The sponsor of the project, it was a terrible time at the time for the image of the company. It's so much better now. But it was a difficult time where there was a trust issue, there was a centralization issue because stablecoin was part of it. There was a brand new blockchain that you have to explain. And the beauty with Bitcoin is that it's not something that we've built, it's not that something controls, it's something that's truly neutral, it's like a protocol that's running in a very decentralized way. And I think that's a lot clearer for a lot of the regulators and lawmakers.

项目的赞助商，当时对公司的形象来说是一个非常艰难的时期。现在情况好多了。但当时确实很困难，有信任问题，还有因为稳定币的存在导致的集中化问题。你还得解释一个全新的区块链。而比特币的美妙之处在于，它不是我们建造出来的东西，也不是被某个实体控制的东西，而是一个真正中立的东西，就像一个以非常去中心化的方式运行的协议。而且我认为，很多监管者和立法者现在对此理解得更加清楚。

I think someone has a question here that they've been wanting to ask for a while as well. We'll make it work. Thank you. It seems like there's going to be a race to the bottom. What is your revenue model? I think that, I mean, look, it's kind of an interesting question because I feel like the competition, when the competition is like a thousand times more expensive, because it relies on technology that's really archaic, you don't spend a lot of time thinking about that, right? Because the improvements of a brand new set of Rails brand new network that is open, that enables full interoperability, that enables developers to build on top of it, and that enables anyone to build a competitive solution and settle on it in real time at a very low cost at the network level, is just going to create so much value that there's just going to be way more than enough for people who bring real value and solve real problems for real customers and real use cases to have a fair cut of the value that they generate for their clients. I'm very, very confident about that.

我觉得有人有一个问题，可能已经想问很久了。我们会解决的。谢谢。看起来现在的竞争像是拼低价。你的盈利模式是什么？我觉得，这是一个有趣的问题，因为当竞争对手的成本高出千倍，而且他们依赖的技术非常陈旧，你就不会花太多时间考虑这些，对吧？因为一个全新的、开放的网络能够实现完全的互操作性，让开发者基于其进行开发，并让任何人都可以构建有竞争力的解决方案，并以极低的成本在网络层面实时结算，这将创造出巨大的价值。有了这些价值，对于那些带来实际价值，解决真实客户问题和现实应用场景的公司来说，获得他们应有的那一份是绰绰有余的。我对此非常有信心。

Hey, David. It's Ray Wong with Constellation Research. Question for you is, do you see the payment gateways and the payment companies like a MasterCard Visa as your friend or as a partner, or do they see you as the enemy because you're basically coming in at less than a BIP, and they're coming in at like 150 BIPs per transaction? Yes, so that's actually a really good question.

嘿，大卫。我是星座研究公司的Ray Wong。我有个问题想问你，你认为像MasterCard和Visa这样的支付网关和支付公司是你的朋友或合作伙伴，还是他们把你视为敌人，因为你的收费不到一个基点，而他们每笔交易要收大约150个基点？这个问题确实非常好。

And I'm not like, you know, Michael, you called me a Bitcoin maximalist. I'm certainly a Bitcoin pragmatist as well. And I think that the reality is that the payment networks have a huge moat, especially in-store payments, because they have terminals everywhere. They're proprietary closed. And they provide a user experience, which is amazing, right? It's like, you know, no one actually complains that their payment experience, like when they're buying a coffee somewhere, sucks.

当然，我不是像你知道的那样，迈克尔，你称我是比特币极端主义者，其实我也非常现实对待比特币。我认为现实情况是，支付网络有非常大的护城河，特别是在店内支付方面，因为它们到处都有终端设备。这些都是专有的、封闭的系统。而且它们提供了非常棒的用户体验。你看，没人真正抱怨他们在某处买咖啡时的支付体验很糟糕。

I think that, you know, many people in our industry have always fantasized and used this example of, I'm going to go buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin, and then you have all of these videos on Twitter if people are an ex, you know, scanning a QR code, and it takes like 50 times more time to actually actually get the payment going. And so I think the reality and the practical aspects of all of this is those networks will combine. And they will be used for the purpose where they're the best at. And certainly there's just going to be price pressure on a bunch of different things, notably online payments and merchant payments that are digital exclusively. I think that's going to definitely bring a lot of price pressure and competition. I think the physical world is going to be hard for a while still. And so I'm more of the mindset of trying to make lightning compatible with all the payments network out there to extend its utility and reach. And that's what we're doing right now.

我认为，你知道，我们这一行的很多人一直在幻想并举例说：“我要用比特币买杯咖啡。”然后在推特上你会看到很多视频，人们扫描二维码，结果整个支付过程耗时至少50倍。我认为，现实情况和实际操作方面，这些网络将会结合起来，并在各自最擅长的领域发挥作用。显然，在线支付和纯数字的商家支付会面临很大的价格压力和竞争。我认为，这肯定会带来大量的价格压低和竞争。物理世界的支付可能还会有一段时间比较难实现。所以我更倾向于把闪电网络与现有的所有支付网络兼容，以扩大其实用性和覆盖范围。这正是我们目前正在做的事情。

The reason I brought that up is because the margin compression coming from India being able to deliver first world capabilities that third world is happening, especially when you think of UPI, you're going to be the other piece that's going to float the rest of the market at those transaction costs. And it's kind of like when we have a hundred dollar drone going after a million dollar missile, right? That's the level margin compression we're seeing in that market. Yeah. Thank you.

我提起这个的原因是因为来自印度的能力提升正在导致利润空间缩小，印度能够提供第一世界的技术，尽管它是第三世界的国家。特别是当你想到UPI（统一支付接口）时，它将成为支撑整个市场的另一个部分，这些交易成本也是一样的。而这有点像用一架价值一百美元的无人机去对抗一枚价值一百万美元的导弹。这就是我们在那个市场中看到的利润压缩程度。谢谢。

Hey, David. We've been talking a lot about international remittances. About a month ago you tweeted AI's native currency will be Bitcoin. Can you elaborate more on that? Are we going to see new use cases, disruptive business models? What do you see? Yeah. I mean, look, think about this this way. Like, you know, I don't know, maybe Satoshi is an AI. It's like, you know, Bitcoin is so smart and clever that it's hard to imagine that only one person invented it. But think about it this way. If you're trying to move and net settle an exchange of value between a network of AI agents performing tasks, performing tasks for us humans, what is the currency that you're going to use? It has to be digital native, right? It can't be something that requires the friction of converting non-digital money into digital money. So it has to be digitally native. And no one in the world will accept any form of native digital value that's not maximally neutral, right? Because it's like not like the Europeans are not going to accept an American version of a digital asset or vice versa.

嘿，David。我们最近一直在讨论国际汇款。大约一个月前你发推说AI的本土货币将是比特币。你能详细说明一下吗？我们会看到新的用例和颠覆性的商业模式吗？你怎么看？ 是的，我的意思是，这样想吧，也许中本聪是一个AI。比特币如此智能和巧妙，以至于很难想象它只是一个人发明的。但这样想，如果你试图在执行任务的AI代理网络之间移动和结算价值，那么你会使用什么货币？它必须是数字原生的，对吧？它不可能需要将非数字货币转换为数字货币的摩擦，因此它必须是数字原生的。而世界上没有人会接受任何不是最大限度中立的本土数字价值，对吧？因为欧洲人不会接受美国版本的数字资产，反之亦然。

And so, like, what is the most neutral form of digital native internet money? It's Bitcoin. And so if you make it super efficient, super fast, real-time, at the speed of AI transactions, that's basically going to be the native currency of AI. And then it's kind of this interesting thing where a few years ago there was this article that blew my mind that Google Translate built AI's to do the translation service, which is really a mind-boggling service when you think about it 20 years ago, like a thing that you can talk to and speak another language. It's pretty remarkable what they did with it with this level of fidelity. But they figured out that this AI that was actually using, on assisted learning, on needed learning, came up with its own language.

所以，像这样的，什么是最中立的数字原生互联网货币呢？那就是比特币。如果你把它变得超级高效、超级快速、实时——像人工智能交易的速度那样，那它基本上就会成为人工智能的原生货币。然后，还有一个很有趣的事情，几年前有一篇文章让我大开眼界，说谷歌翻译为了提供翻译服务建立了AI。20年前你想想，能有一个可以和你对话并翻译成另一种语言的东西，这真是令人惊叹的服务。他们在这种高精度的层面上达到了令人惊讶的成果。但他们发现这个AI，通过自主学习和必要学习，竟然自己创造了一种语言。

And it was kind of its own neutral language to basically translate one language to another using its own thing. And so what is it going to be for value between AI agents? Definitely Bitcoin, because that's the neutral language of value on the Internet native. And so I think it's like the most likely candidate here. So what does the world look like when all nation states accept Bitcoin as legal tender? I don't know about that. I think that's a hard question. I feel that, you know, you certainly see what happened in El Salvador and a number of other countries where they do. But I still think that for the vast majority of nation states that run a home currency that's a decent home currency, and I'm pretty sure that Michael will have a point of view on why it's not a good idea to keep a lot of your savings in those currencies.

它实际上是一种中立的语言，基本上用它自己的方式将一种语言翻译成另一种语言。那么，在AI代理之间传递价值的中立语言会是什么呢？肯定是比特币，因为它是互联网原生的中立价值语言。所以我认为它是最有可能的选择。那么，当所有国家都接受比特币作为法定货币时，世界会是什么样子？对此我不太确定。我觉得这是一个难回答的问题。我们确实可以看到在萨尔瓦多和一些其他国家，他们已经这么做了。但是我仍然认为，对于大多数拥有自己货币并且这货币还算不错的国家来说，这并不是一个好主意。我相信迈克尔也会有观点说明为什么把大量储蓄保存在这些货币中并不好。

But I think for day-to-day payments, those currencies are good enough. I think that those governments will want their own currency to be that unit of account for day-to-day transactions. They'll want to be able to continue to manage their monetary policy that's either terrible or bad or good. But I think that's the reality of the world, the inescapable reality of the world. But I think some countries will want to do that. Some countries that need to get out of decades of mismanagement of currency controls and devaluations and massive inflation might want to look into that, and it might benefit them like it already did for El Salvador and others, like in terms of influx of foreign capital and all kinds of different things.

但我认为对于日常支付来说，这些货币已经足够了。我认为各国政府会希望他们的货币成为日常交易中的计价单位。无论他们的货币政策是糟糕还是不错，他们都希望继续管理自己的货币政策。但我认为这是世界上不能回避的现实。但我认为有些国家会想要这样做。那些需要摆脱几十年货币管制、贬值和大规模通货膨胀的国家可能会考虑这种做法，这可能对他们有益，就像它已经对萨尔瓦多等国家带来外资流入和其他各种好处一样。

But yeah, I think for the foreseeable future at least, I think that nation states will continue to have their own currencies as the main thing and take advantage of lightning to net settle with other countries and enable their economy to thrive by enabling more capital freedom for their constituents. I think we have time for one last question. Hi, David Dax-Hanson. You talk about native and also neutral. Can you talk a little bit about UMA and the end currency when you're moving from Bitcoin into the end currency pesos, euro, dollars? Are those also going to be native tokenized balances, commercial bank balances, stable coins? What does that look like? So today, the way that UMA works is you're sending, let's say, from an exchange or a neo-bank that can handle both your home currency and Bitcoin. So at the time of the transaction, you're communicating with the recipient institution that's on the network.

是的，我认为在可预见的未来，国家将继续使用自己的货币作为主要货币，同时利用闪电网络（Lightning Network）与其他国家进行结算，并通过为其公民提供更多资本自由来促进经济繁荣。我认为我们还有时间最后提一个问题。你好，大卫·达克斯-汉森（David Dax-Hanson）。你提到了原生和中立的概念，能否谈谈UMA及其在从比特币转换到终端货币（如比索、欧元、美元）时的情况？这些终端货币是否也会是原生代币化的余额、商业银行余额或稳定币？具体是什么样子的呢？目前，UMA的运作方式是你从一个能够处理你本国货币和比特币的交易所或新型银行进行发送，因此在交易时，你会与位于网络上的接收机构进行沟通。

The recipient institution, let's say you're receiving Filipino peso, you're basically going to say, okay, my quote for every satoshi or for every amount to convert to Filipino peso is that much. The sending institution will charge a spread if they want. And then the transaction basically gets converted from US dollars to SATs, pushed on the network, converted to Filipino peso at the end. And so in this case, the balances are real fiat balances. They're not like a digital representation of the currency.

接收方机构，比如说你要接收菲律宾比索，你基本上会说，好的，我的报价是每个聪（或者特定数量的比特币）换成多少菲律宾比索。发送方机构如果愿意，可以收取一个价差。然后交易大致流程是从美元转换成聪，传输到网络上，最后转换为菲律宾比索。因此，在这个过程中，账户余额是真实的法定货币余额，而不是数字货币的表示。

There's actual real balances sitting in your account the same way that you would for a domestic payment on those out. Well, thank you, David. Thank you so much. It's been very enlightening. Thank you to everybody in the audience. We've been a great audience today.

你的账户里有真实的余额，就像你在处理国内付款时的情况一样。好的，谢谢你，David。非常感谢。这次话题很有收获。也感谢在场的各位观众。大家今天表现得很棒。