Dr. Charan Ranganath: How to Improve Memory & Focus Using Science Protocols
发布时间 2024-09-30 12:00:52 来源
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Charn Ranganath. Dr. Charn Ranganath is a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of California Davis. He is one of the world's leading researchers in the topic of human memory. And memory, of course, is an essential component to our entire lives.
欢迎收听Huberman Lab播客，在这里我们讨论科学以及用于日常生活的科学工具。我是Andrew Huberman，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天的嘉宾是Charn Ranganath博士。Charn Ranganath博士是加州大学戴维斯分校心理学和神经科学教授。他是全球人类记忆研究领域的顶尖专家之一。而记忆当然是我们整个生活中不可或缺的组成部分。
Memory isn't just important for remembering things that we learn. It's also vitally important for setting the context of our entire life, meaning only by understanding where we come from, who we were and who we are currently, can we frame what we want to do in the next moments, the next day, the next years, and indeed for the rest of our life. This is why, for instance, that people who have deficits in memory either due to brain damage or due to age-related cognitive decline or diseases like Alzheimer's dementia suffer so much, not just in terms of not being able to remember things for sake of daily tasks, but also for sake of placing themselves in the larger context of their life.
记忆不仅仅是为了记住我们学到的东西。它对于设定我们整个生活的背景也至关重要。只有通过了解我们来自哪里、过去是谁以及现在是谁，我们才能规划接下来的事情、明天、未来几年，甚至我们余生要做什么。这就是为什么那些因为脑损伤、年龄相关的认知衰退或像阿尔茨海默症这样的疾病而出现记忆缺陷的人会遭受如此大的痛苦。他们不只是因为无法记住日常任务而困扰，更重要的是因为无法将自己置于生活的更大背景中。
Recognizing family members isn't just about being able to relate to those family members on a day-to-day basis. It's also about understanding the full context of all one's memories with those people and what meaning a given interaction brings to any of life's experiences. So today you're going to learn how memory works. You're going to learn about things like deja vu. You're going to learn ways to offset age-related cognitive decline, what the research really says about that, and ways to prevent things like Alzheimer's dementia. We also talk about ADHD or Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.
识别家庭成员不仅仅是为了能够在日常生活中与他们相处，更重要的是理解与这些人所有记忆的完整背景，以及某次互动对生活经历的意义。因此，今天你将学习记忆是如何运作的。你将了解像“似曾相识”这样的现象、如何应对与年龄相关的认知衰退、研究对此的真正看法，以及预防阿尔茨海默病这样疾病的方法。我们还会讨论多动症，也就是注意力缺陷多动障碍。
And Dr. Ranganath shares his own experience with ADHD, how it relates to memory, and the tools that he has used in order to combat his own ADHD. Dr. Ranganath has an exquisite ability to describe research studies in clear terms and to combine that with his own narrative and life experience in a way that really frames for you practical tools that you can apply in your daily life. Before you begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
该段文字翻译成中文如下：
拉加纳斯博士分享了他与多动症相关的个人经历，以及这种经历与记忆的关系，并介绍了他为了应对自身多动症所使用的工具。拉加纳斯博士有着绝佳的能力，能够用明确的语言来描述研究，并结合他自己的故事和生活经验，以一种实用的方式为您提供可以在日常生活中应用的工具。在开始之前，我想强调的是，这个播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是分开的。然而，这是我努力将免费科学信息及相关工具普及给大众的一部分。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is David. David makes a protein bar unlike any other. It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein. This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar. These bars from David also taste incredible. My favorite bar is the cake flavored one, but then again, I also like the chocolate flavored one, and I like the berry flavored one. Basically, I like all the flavors. They're all incredibly delicious.
为了配合这个主题，我想感谢今天播客的赞助商。首先要感谢的是David。他制作了一种与众不同的蛋白棒。每根棒含有28克蛋白质，只有150卡路里，而且没有任何糖。没错，就是28克蛋白质，并且75%的热量来自蛋白质。这比其他蛋白棒高出50%。David的蛋白棒味道也非常棒。我最喜欢的是蛋糕味的，但我也喜欢巧克力味的，还有莓果味的。其实，我喜欢所有的口味。它们都非常美味。
Now, for me personally, I try to get most of my calories from whole foods. However, when I'm in a rush, or I'm away from home, or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack, I often find that I'm looking for a high-quality protein source, and with David, I'm able to get 28 grams of high-quality protein with the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and it allows me to do so without taking on an excess of calories. Again, I focus on getting most of my food from whole food sources throughout the day, but I typically eat a David bar in the late afternoon when I get hungry between lunch and dinner, sometimes also mid-morning if I get hungry then, and sometimes I'll use it as a meal replacement, although not a complete meal replacement, it can get me to the next meal.
对我个人来说，我尽量从天然食物中摄取大部分热量。不过，当我赶时间、离家在外，或者只是想找个下午的快餐时，我常常会寻找优质的蛋白质来源。通过David，我能摄取28克优质蛋白，热量却只相当于一份小吃，这让我很容易达到每磅体重摄入一克蛋白的目标，同时不会摄入过多热量。尽管如此，我还是会在一天中主要吃天然食物，但通常在午餐和晚餐之间的下午晚些时候，我会吃一根David能量棒填补饥饿，有时候如果上午饿了也会吃。尽管它不是一个完整的代餐，但足以撑到下一顿饭。
So if I need to eat in a couple of hours, but I'm really hungry, I'll eat a David bar. As I mentioned before, they are incredibly delicious. In fact, they're surprisingly delicious. Even the consistency is great. It's more like a cookie consistency, kind of a chewy cookie consistency, which is unlike other bars, which I tend to kind of saturate on. I was never a big fan of bars until I discovered David bars. If you give them a try, you'll know what I mean. So if you'd like to try David, you can go to DavidProteen.com slash Huberman. Again, the link is DavidProteen.com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels. Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet, using a continuous glucose monitor.
所以，如果我几小时后需要吃饭，但我现在真的很饿，我就会吃一块David能量棒。正如我之前提到的，它们非常美味。事实上，它们的美味程度让人惊喜。它们的口感甚至很好，更像是饼干的口感，是那种有点嚼劲的饼干，这和其他类型的棒相比很不一样，我通常会对其他棒感到腻。我从来不是能量棒的大粉丝，直到我发现了David能量棒。如果你试试看，就会明白我的意思。所以，如果你想试试David，可以访问DavidProtein.com/Huberman。再说一次，链接是DavidProtein.com/Huberman。今天这一集还由Levels赞助。Levels是一个能让你看到不同食物如何影响你健康的程序，它通过使用连续的葡萄糖监测器，给你提供饮食的实时反馈。
Now, one of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health and your energy levels each day is your body's ability to manage blood glucose. To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose levels steady without big spikes or crashes. Now, I first started using levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for determining what food choices I make, when best to time my food intake around things like workouts, both cardiovascular training versus resistance training, and when and what to eat, close to sleep, or not so close to sleep, when I wake up in the morning, if I'm fasting or breaking a fast, etc. Indeed, using levels has helped me shape my entire schedule, so I have more energy, more cognitive focus, my workouts are better, my sleep is better. Everything got better when I understood how different things, especially food, were impacting my blood glucose levels.
现在，影响您短期和长期健康以及日常能量水平的重要因素之一是您身体管理血糖的能力。为了在一天中保持精力和专注，您需要保持血糖水平的稳定，不要出现大的波动。我是在大约三年前开始使用“Levels”这个工具的，用来了解不同食物对我的血糖水平的影响。这个工具让我深入了解了我应该如何选择食物，何时安排进食时间，比如在心血管训练和阻力训练等锻炼活动中，以及在睡觉前后何时和吃什么食物最合适，还有早晨醒来时，是否在进行间歇性禁食或如何结束禁食等。确实，使用这个工具帮助我合理安排了整个日程表，因此我有了更多的能量，更集中的注意力，锻炼效果更好，睡眠质量也提高了。当我了解了食物等因素如何影响我的血糖水平时，我的各方面都得到了改善。
So if you're interested in learning more about levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link.com. Right now, levels is also offering an additional two free months of membership. Again, that's levels.link.l-i-n-k.k.s.uberman to try their new sensor and two free months of membership. Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more. I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and made a profound impact on my life. And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
如果你对了解更多有关 Levels 感兴趣，并希望亲自尝试一下 CGM，你可以访问 levels.link.com。目前，Levels 还额外赠送两个月免费会员。再次提醒，访问 levels.link.l-i-n-k.k.s.uberman 可以试用他们的新传感器并获取两个月的免费会员资格。
今天的节目还由 Waking Up 应用赞助。Waking Up 是一个冥想应用，提供数百个指导冥想项目、正念训练、瑜伽睡眠课程等。我大约在 15 岁时开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。到现在，已有数千篇高质量的同行评审研究强调正念冥想在提高注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善情绪等方面的有效性。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations, because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice. Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice. What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations. So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty. You never get tired of those meditations. There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation. And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
近年来，我开始使用 "Waking Up" 应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个极好的资源，可以让我在冥想练习中保持一致。许多人开始冥想后会感受到一些好处，但也有许多人难以坚持。这款应用之所以受到我和很多人的喜爱，是因为它提供了很多不同类型的冥想课程，并且这些课程的时长各不相同。因此，无论从新鲜感还是灵活性方面，都很容易坚持定期冥想。你不会对这些冥想感到厌倦，总有新内容可以探索，可以了解自己，也可以感受到冥想的有效性。即使每天只有两三分钟的时间，你也可以把冥想融入到你的日程中。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com slash Huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial. And now for my discussion with Dr. Charne Ranganath. Dr. Charne Ranganath. Welcome. Thank you. Speaking of memory, we go way back. We do. We do. I was a graduate student when you were first hired as an assistant professor, which for those that aren't familiar with the academic nomenclature and trajectories, assistant professors are professors that have not yet received tenure, but now, of course, you're a full professor. And you are a world expert in memory, something that I think occupies the minds of all of us, even if we're not trying.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/Huberman，您可以在此免费试用 30 天。现在，让我们进入我与查恩·兰加纳特博士的讨论。查恩·兰加纳特博士，欢迎您。谢谢。谈到记忆，我们的关系可以追溯到很久以前。是的，确实如此。当您刚刚被聘为助理教授时，我还是一名研究生。对于那些不熟悉学术术语和职业发展轨迹的人来说，助理教授是尚未获得终身教职的教授，但现在您当然是一名正教授。您是记忆领域的世界级专家，我想这是一个即使我们未曾刻意去想，仍然会占据我们心灵的问题。
So that's actually the segue to my first question, which is, as we move through our day, how much of our cognition, our perception, is focused on things that are happening in the past. And in the present, as supposed to being driven by prior memories, studies ever been done that evaluate how often our brain switches to thoughts about the past. Of course, we learn about things that are in our present. I know this is a cup because I was taught that at some point. But what I'm referring to is how much of our thinking on a day-to-day basis is literally in the past.
所以，这实际上是引出我的第一个问题，也就是，当我们度过一天时，我们的大脑认知和感知有多少是集中在过去的事情上的，而不是在处理当前的事情。有没有研究评估过我们的大脑有多久会切换到关于过去的思考。当然，我们会了解当前的事物，比如我知道这是一个杯子，因为我曾经学过。但我想知道的是，我们每天的思考中到底有多大一部分实际上是在过去。
Well, it's interesting. I mean, first of all, it's a great question to start off with. And it's interesting because I actually don't think memory is about the past. I think memory is about the present and the future. It's about taking selectively what you need from the past to make sense of the present and to project to the future. I know you're a vision guy, right? And so if you look at people's just eye movements, right, the first time I came into this room, I'm sure I wasn't aware of it. But I'm sure my eyes were going all over the place. Now, if I came back to visit, you say, if you're like, oh, that was an awesome interview or whatever, right? Hopefully, but maybe not. But let's say I do, right? Chances are. Yeah, so I go and my eyes will probably go right to the Rick Rubin photo. Then I'll go right to something out, right to the espresso machine. And so my memory allows me to make predictions about where things are.
好吧，这很有趣。首先，这确实是个很好的开场问题。有趣的是，我其实并不认为记忆是关于过去的。我认为记忆是关于现在和未来的。它是从过去中挑选出你所需的信息来理解现在，并展望未来。我知道你是个有视觉思维的人，对吧？所以如果你观察人们的眼动，我第一次进入这个房间时，我可能并没有意识到，但我可以肯定我的眼睛四处打量。现在，如果我再次来访，比如说你说那次采访真不错，希望如此（也可能不是），但假设我确实来了，对吧？很有可能，我的眼睛会直接找到Rick Rubin的照片，然后直视别的东西，比如咖啡机。我的记忆让我能够预测物体的位置。
And it's almost pre-conscious so that it's happening without our awareness. And it's like confirmatory. We're grabbing the important stuff and making sure everything's where it's supposed to be. And you can see this play out and phenomena also like change blindness. And it's a little bit of a different phenomena. But basically in change blindness, there's a famous example where they show a video of people playing basketball and they're passing the ball back and forth. And then this guy in a gorilla costume just walks behind them. And about, I think it's 40% of the people who watch this video don't see the gorilla. And the reason is is that you're generating these serious expectations about what's in front of you. And so you're not literally seeing what's in front of you. You are creating an internal model, a simulation really of what the outside world is.
这几乎是一个前意识的过程，所以它在我们无意识的情况下发生。有点像确认性反应。我们在抓住重要的东西，并确保每样东西都在该在的位置。你可以在一些现象中看到这种表现，比如变化盲视。这有点不同的现象。基本上，在变化盲视中，有一个著名的例子，视频里有人在打篮球，互相传球，然后一个穿着猩猩服装的人就从他们后面走过。而观看这个视频的人中，大约有40%没有注意到这只"猩猩"。原因是我们对眼前的事物产生了强烈的预期，所以我们实际上并没有真正看到眼前的东西，而是在头脑中创建了一个关于外部世界的内部模型，实际上是一个模拟。
And memory, whether it's semantic memory, which we'll talk about, I'm sure you're knowledge about the world, like the cup thing. If it's episodic memory, which is your memory of what happened, let's say just a minute ago, it's all coming into play in terms of your sense of where you are. If I just ask you what day is it? You will use episodic memory for that. Tomorrow morning, I'm going to wake up in a hotel room. If I don't have episodic memory, I will freak out because I'll be like, where am I? Did I get kidnapped? Why am I here? And that's really the experience of people with memory disorders. I mean, they have to be in really familiar environments because it's frightening otherwise.
记忆，无论是语义记忆--例如关于世界的知识，就像杯子的事，我们会谈到--还是情景记忆，即你对刚刚发生的事情的记忆，都会影响你对自己所处环境的感觉。比如，如果我问你今天是星期几，你会用情景记忆来回答。明天早上，我会在酒店房间醒来。如果我没有情景记忆，我会非常恐慌，因为我会想，我在哪里？我是不是被绑架了？为什么我会在这里？这就是那些有记忆障碍的人所经历的现实。他们只能待在非常熟悉的环境里，否则会感到害怕。
So even, I wouldn't necessarily say that we were never seeing the present, of course we are, right? But our understanding of the present is so informed by the past that it allows us both to focus on what's important, what's non-redundant with what we already know. And it also allows us to detect surprises and find out the things that are unexpected and grab the most informative stuff as well.
所以，我不会断然说我们从未看到现在，当然我们会看到，不是吗？但是，我们对现在的理解深受过去的影响，使得我们能够专注于重要的、与已有知识不重复的事情。同时，这也使我们能够察觉惊讶之处，发现意料之外的事情，并获取最有信息价值的东西。
Yesterday, I took a brief nap in the afternoon. I do this practice of non-sleep deep rest in the afternoon. Have you teach this to me sometime? It's very restorative for mental and physical energy, I find. But I fell asleep toward the end of it. And when I woke up, I was in a dark room, but I didn't know where I was for about 10, 15 seconds. Somewhat scary, but I'd forgotten that I was in my solo studio, I'd turn the room lights down. What is it when we have these lapses of memory as we emerge from sleep? Or sometimes if one has been severely jet-lagged, you can experience this disorientation of place. Do we know what that is? Well, a lot of your sense of where you are comes from episodic memory.
昨天下午，我小睡了一会儿。我有进行这种下午不睡觉的深度休息的习惯。这是你某次教给我的吗？我觉得这对身心能量的恢复非常有帮助。不过，我由于过于放松，最后睡着了。当我醒来的时候，我在一个黑暗的房间里，大约10到15秒内都不知道自己身在何处。这有点吓人，但很快我想起来我是在自己独自待的工作室里，是我自己把灯光调暗了。这种从睡眠中醒来时短暂记忆丧失的情况到底是什么呢？有时候，当一个人严重时差反应的时候，也会出现这种迷失方向的感觉。我们知道这是什么原因吗？其实，你对所在位置的感觉，很大程度上来自情景记忆。
Now, there's a school of thought that says that episodic memory, which is your ability to remember past events, is comes from your ability to understand where you are. We have some interesting data from sea lions, actually, that speaks to this issue. Sea lions. Sea lions. We'll get back to that. We'll get back to the sea lions. But I would argue that to remember where you are when you first get up, you have to engage in an active episodic memory retrieval. That is, you have to figure out, well, how did I get here? And that takes a moment, orienting yourself takes a moment. And that, because it's a little bit of a controlled memory search, right? It's not something that's in front of you that reminds you of where you are initially. And you're also in this little bit of a fog when you wake up. I don't know enough about sleep to say, but I would suspect that people probably are in some kind of a stage one-ish or just high alpha. All these brain waves that are very much associated with grogginess as you're getting up. Neuromodulators are probably super low. So basically. It's not much up in Ephrain, not much adrenaline. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that's going to lead you to really be slow in doing that memory retrieval that you need to orient yourself.
现在，有一种观点认为情景记忆——即你记得过去事件的能力，与理解你身处何处的能力有关。我们有一些关于海狮的数据，可以说明这一点。海狮，这个我们稍后再讨论。不过，我认为，当你起床时，要想记住自己在哪里，需要主动开展情景记忆检索。也就是说，你需要思考，“我是怎么到这里的？”这需要一点时间，因为这是一种有点受控的记忆搜索。起床后你还有些恍惚，不是醒来后眼前的事物马上能提醒你你在哪里。我对睡眠不够了解，但我推测人们在起床时可能处于某种一级睡眠阶段或高α波阶段。这些脑电波与朦胧的状态密切相关。此时大脑中的神经调节物质可能非常低，比如去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素含量都很少。所以，这就导致你在进行定位所需的记忆检索时会变得比较缓慢。
So like in the clinic, if you want to understand whether someone has a memory disorder, one of the simplest things is to ask them what day of the week is it? What month is it? Who's the president? Who's the president, yeah. Right now that's a common. That's a loaded question. But depends on what time of year relative to the election you asked, right? Exactly, yeah. Very interesting. I'm curious also why it is that most all of us have a stable representation of who we are. So my understanding is that even people with very severe memory deficits don't wake up in the morning and wonder, you know, who am I or who is this person in this body? That somehow we remember that we have a self, that we are separate from other selves, that that kind of knowledge might be innate, we might be born with it, and that the representation of self in memory is very stable. Is that true?
在诊所里，如果你想了解一个人是否有记忆障碍，最简单的方法之一就是问他们今天是星期几？几月？谁是总统？是的，谁是总统。现在这是一个常用问题。但这个问题的回答可能会因你问的时间是选举前后而有所不同，对吧？确实是这样，非常有趣。我也很想知道，为什么我们大多数人都有一个稳定的自我认知。据我了解，即使是有非常严重记忆缺陷的人也不会早上醒来后不知道自己是谁，或者怀疑“我是谁”或“这个身体里的人是谁”？似乎我们始终记得我们有一个自我，我们与其他人是不同的，这种自我认知可能与生俱来，在记忆中自我的表现是非常稳定的。这是真的吗？
Well, here's what I'll say. It's a really interesting and complex question. You always talk to a scientist, he gets complicated. But I'll give you as simple of a thing as I can, which is, so if you look at patients with amnesia, so they have a memory disorder where they can't form new memories, they have a sense of who they are, as you mentioned, right? It's not like they don't know who they are. And I mean like they know their names, they know their biographies and so forth. But what happens is at the time, let's say if you had gone swimming and you nearly drowned, you had a hypoxia incident or a cardiac arrest, or you know, you had like a traumatic brain injury, severe memory deficit, right? Your sense of self doesn't update, it gets kind of stuck. And so there is kind of a sense of looking and not expecting yourself to be as old as you used to be, as you are, because like you're stuck in your sense of who you were. And I do think, I talked to my good friend Rick Robbins at Davis as a personality psychologist, and he studies the development of personality. And it does develop, you know, it kind of stabilizes in these adolescent years, and that's actually also interestingly related to memory. But it does change. People do change in a really interesting way. So one thing is that people grow more optimistic on average as they get older. And yeah, that's true. So Laura Carstensen, your colleague at Stanford actually has done some really cool work on that topic. They become more optimistic, and yet I would argue that we become more quote unquote set in our ways because neuroplasticity, the ability to reshape our neural circuits diminishes with age.
好吧，我这样说。这是一个非常有趣且复杂的问题。当你和科学家交谈时，他往往会让问题变得复杂。但我尽可能简单地解答：如果你看失忆症患者，他们有记忆障碍，无法形成新的记忆，但正如你所提到的，他们仍有自我意识。他们知道自己的名字、个人历史等等。但问题是，如果在某个时刻，比如你曾游泳差点溺水，或者经历了缺氧事件、心脏骤停，或遭遇了一次严重的脑外伤，导致严重的记忆损伤，你的自我意识无法更新，像是停滞了一样。因此，你可能会觉得自己没有像实际年龄那么老，因为你停留在过去自我认知的状态。我跟我的好友Rick Robbins在Davis聊过这个问题，他是研究人格心理学的。他研究人格的发展，而人格确实会发展，并在青少年时期变得稳定。这其实也跟记忆有着有趣的关联。人确实会以一种非常有趣的方式改变。一个现象是，随着年龄增长，人一般会变得更乐观。没错，Laura Carstensen，你在斯坦福的同事，就在这个领域做了非常出色的研究。人们变得更乐观，但同时，我认为我们却“固守己见”更多了，因为神经可塑性，也就是重塑神经回路的能力，随着年龄的增长而减弱。
Well, you know, so I think that's overdone a little bit. I think you're right. You know, you definitely see less dopamine activity, for instance, as people get older, and, but what I'll say is that people have gobs, if you have a healthy aging person, they have gobs of neuroplasticity. But often what happens is, yeah, you get stuck in your ways, and that could be related to a few things. One is that you get changes in the prefrontal cortex, and that leads you to be less cognitively flexible. It can be also because people just build up so much prior knowledge about the world that it just becomes kind of ingrained that this is the way it is, and it's harder to be surprised. I mean, you kind of see this with old scientists, right? They go like, nothing's new. Everything's been discovered in 1960, and nothing new has happened since then. And by the way, for folks listening who are considering a career in science, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, prior to recording, you told me a saying that I've never heard before. I don't know if it's cynical or optimistic, but if I recall the quote that, that Dr. Rangana passed along, which does not come from him, it descends from somebody else, not to be named, is that quote, science progresses one funeral at a time. Very, very actually, very interesting statement. It could be examined from a number of directions. But I agree. I agree. I mean, there's some wonderful, let's call them, aged scientists with tremendous knowledge and excitement. I mean, one only has to listen to the Nobel Prize winner, Richard Axel, talk about his love of olfaction and perception, and that you can sense his delight. And he's getting up there. Sorry, Richard, but it's true. He's in his 70s, right? Hopefully he'll live a very long time. And certainly science progressed as a consequence of him being alive and working on the olfactory system. But I think what you're referring to is really important.
好的，你知道，我觉得有些说法有点夸张。我认为你是对的。举个例子，当人们变老时，他们的多巴胺活动确实减少了。但是我要说的是，如果一个人健康地老去，他们仍然有很强的神经可塑性。但问题往往在于，人们变得固执己见，这可能与几件事有关。首先是前额叶皮层的变化，使人认知灵活性降低。也可能是因为人们对世界有太多先验知识，这种知识根深蒂固，所以他们不容易感到惊讶。你可以从一些老科学家身上看到这种现象，他们总是觉得没有什么新东西，一切都在1960年发现了，之后就再也没有新东西出现了。对正在考虑从事科学事业的人来说，这种想法绝对是错的。实际上，在录制之前，你告诉我一句我从未听过的名言，我不确定这句话是悲观还是乐观的。根据我的记忆，Dr. Rangana 引述的这句话，尽管不是他的原创，但也不愿透露来源，就是"科学是随着一场一场葬礼而进步的。"这是一句非常有意思的话，可以从多个角度来解读。不过我同意。我想说，有一些富有知识和激情的老科学家仍然非常出色。比如说，诺贝尔奖得主Richard Axel 谈论他对嗅觉和感知的热爱时，你可以感受到他的喜悦。他已经七十多岁了，不过希望他能活得长久，毫无疑问，他在世并研究嗅觉系统时，科学也因此有所进步。但我认为你提到的这些变化确实很重要。
Neuroplasticity doesn't necessarily shut down as we age. It might even stay open to the same degree as early adulthood. But if I understand what you're saying correctly, you believe that it's because people tend to seek out less new knowledge as opposed to lacking the ability to create new knowledge. I believe that's true, but that's kind of, that's an opinion. I don't have data on that per se, but someone's probably looked at this. But that would be my sense is that a lot of what happens with the way people's lives play out as they get older have to do with their environment and their experience.
神经可塑性不一定会随着年龄增长而关闭。它可能会像年轻成年时期一样保持开放。但如果我正确理解你的意思，你认为这是因为人们随着年龄增长会更少地寻找新知识，而不是缺乏创造新知识的能力。我认为这是正确的，但这只是一个观点，我没有具体的数据来支持这个看法，不过可能有人研究过这个问题。我的看法是，随着人们年龄的增长，他们生活方式的变化在很大程度上与他们的环境和经验有关。
And that's not to say that, I mean, yes, neuroplasticity does changes you get older, but it doesn't account for the degree to which sometimes people can get stuck and sit in their ways. And you know, your example of the scientists is such a beautiful example because I look at the scientists who don't get stuck in their ways, right? And they constantly challenge their beliefs. They surround themselves with a diverse group of people who stimulate them. And they're also open to prediction error. That is they're open to saying something could be violating my knowledge of the world or my understanding of the way world works.
这并不是说神经可塑性完全解释了随年龄增长而发生的变化。确实，神经可塑性会随年龄而变化，但它并不能完全解释为什么有些人有时会变得固执己见。你的那个科学家的例子就是一个很好的说明。我看到那些不断挑战自己信念的科学家，他们不会固步自封。他们会把自己置于一个多元化的群体中，与那些能激发他们思考的人交往。他们也愿意接受预测错误，也就是愿意承认某些事情可能与自己对世界的认知或理解不符。
So here's just an example. I know I'm going to be free associated with all of the places we get into that. But it's like, what are the coolest studies that we ever did? And I totally credit my postdoc, Matthias Grouber for those. He came into my lab. Originally German came in from University College London. And he told me he wanted to study curiosity and its effect on memory. I'm like, this is just I am being totally closed minded. And I said, this is just a dumb topic. You know, it's everybody knows if you're curious about something, you'll remember it better. It's just because you're interested, right?
这有一个例子。我知道，当我们探讨这个话题时，我可能会想起很多相关的地方。但这就像，我们做过的最酷的研究是什么？我完全归功于我的博士后Matthias Grouber。他来到我的实验室，最初是从伦敦大学学院来的德国人。他告诉我，他想研究好奇心及其对记忆的影响。我当时就觉得，我真是太狭隘了。我说，这简直是个愚蠢的课题。你知道的，大家都知道，如果你对某件事情感到好奇，你会记得更清楚。这不就是因为你感兴趣吗？
So he said, no, no, no, this is really interesting. And so he did this experiment. And I got on board with it. We really kind of collectively, it was just this beautiful thing where I was like, something new and I got excited about it. And so the idea was we would give people these trivia questions. And so it's kind of like a pub quiz. You sit in a pub quiz. Sometimes you get a question and it's like, I don't know the answer. Sometimes you get it. I know it. Sometimes you go, I don't know. But God, I really need to know the answer to this. And you get this itch, right? Or sometimes you're listeners. I mean, they're probably very curious people. And that's why they listen to this. And maybe some of them go to your show notes afterwards because they want to learn more, right?
他说：“不不不，这确实很有趣。”于是他做了这个实验。我参与了这个实验。我们真的像是一个集体，整个过程非常美好，我觉得是一个新鲜事物，激动不已。这个想法是，我们会给人们一些问答题，有点像酒吧里的问答游戏。你坐在酒吧问答游戏里，有时候会遇到一个问题，不知道答案；有时候却知道答案；有时候你会说，“我不知道，但天哪，我真的很想知道答案。”这种时候你会觉得特别渴望知道答案，对吧？有时候你的听众可能也是这样，他们可能非常好奇，这就是为什么他们听这个节目。也许他们中有些人在节目之后会查看你的节目笔记，因为他们想了解更多信息，对吗？
So we actually scan people's brains using functional MRI. And so we scan them when they get questions. And sometimes they'd said, I'm really curious to find out the answer to these questions. Sometimes they weren't curious. And then we make them wait about eight seconds and then, or 10 seconds, I think it was something like that. And then we show them the answer. So they're kind of in suspense. It's kind of like you're watching, like, breaking bad or something back in the day. People at commercials and so you're like, oh, no, I got to find out what's going on. Oh, no, I got to find out what's going to happen to Walt, right? So you're in suspense. You need to know the answer to this. Or you don't care. Sometimes you just don't care. You're just sitting around.
我们实际上用功能性磁共振成像（fMRI）扫描人们的大脑。我们在他们回答问题时进行扫描。有时他们会说：“我非常好奇，想知道这些问题的答案。”有时候他们并不那么好奇。然后我们让他们等待大约八到十秒钟，然后才展示答案。所以在这个过程中，他们有点处于一种悬念的状态。这就像你在看《绝命毒师》之类的节目，当广告时间到来时，你就会想：“哦，不，我得知道发生了什么。”或者“哦，不，我得知道沃尔特接下来会怎样。”所以你会处于一种紧张期盼的状态，迫不及待想知道答案。当然有时候你可能无所谓，只是随意坐着。
So we show a little face and we say, hey, how likely is it you think this person knows the answer to the question? That was a totally dumb thing to do because they don't know this person. They're just looking at a face. They're just making some arbitrary decision. But I'll get to why we did that because that was, I think, the coolest part of the experiment. But let's first get back to the trivia question. So we found that when we looked at brain activity, when we give people the question, right afterwards, there is a burst of activity throughout the so-called reward circuit of the brain. It's not really a reward circuit as we've discussed offline. It's really these areas of the brain that process the neurotransmitter dopamine. And unlike many other neuromodulators in school, it still means much more restricted in its effect. And so in the midbrain near the ventral tegmental area, sorry, I'm geeking out on this. No, we've talked about that in this podcast. It's a particular, I think the key statement that you made that people should hold on to as we progressed through this is that dopamine is not dumped everywhere.
我们展示了一张小面孔，然后问：“你觉得这个人有多大的可能知道这个问题的答案？”这其实完全是不明智的做法，因为他们并不认识这个人，只是看了一张面孔，做出随意的判断。不过我会解释我们这么做的原因，因为这是我认为实验中最酷的部分。但首先，我们回到这个知识问答的问题。当我们查看人们的大脑活动时，发现给出问题后，大脑中所谓的“奖励回路”区域会立刻出现一阵活动。我们之前已经讨论过，这其实不是真正的奖励回路，而是大脑处理多巴胺这种神经递质的区域。与在学校中学习到的许多其他神经调节物质不同，多巴胺的影响范围更加有限。虽然我有点激动过头了，在这个播客中我们谈过这个话题——在中脑靠近腹侧被盖区的地方。重要的是，你提到的关键一点是，随着我们的进展，人们应该记住，多巴胺并不是到处都释放的。
It's not sprinkled all over the brain. It's released in fairly restricted sites in order to drive particular processes. That's right. It's good for now. Yeah. And so when we look at functional MRI, we can't measure dopamine. But what we see is activity in the dopaminergic midbrain area, meaning the area of the brain around the midbrain. And you see it in the nucleus of cumbins or what's called the ventral striatum, which is another area that's super high dopamine reward processing area. The more curious people are, like on a one to six scale, the more activity you see. It's just like this beautiful relationship, right? And it's not driven by the answer. Now there's a reason we probably didn't get it for the answer, but it's driven by the question. So it's not like they're like, oh, I learned something new. It's like, I want to get this knowledge. And so that's part one of the story.
它并不是在大脑中随处分布的，而是在相对有限的部位释放，以推动特定的过程。没错，目前来说是这样。当我们使用功能性核磁共振成像（fMRI）时，我们无法直接测量多巴胺。但我们可以看到多巴胺能中脑区域的活动，这指的是大脑中靠近中脑的区域。你可以看到这些活动在腹侧纹状体或核仁巢中，这些区域是多巴胺高度参与奖赏处理的区域。好奇心更强的人，比如用1到6的量表来衡量，就会看到更多这样的活动。这种关系就像是非常美妙的，但并不是靠答案驱动的。我们可能不会因为答案而得到这样的效果，而是因为问题。因此，这不是他们学到了一些新东西，而是他们想获得这些知识。这就是故事的第一部分。
Part two of the story is we show that face right after the question. And if people are curious to find the answer to the question, they get a bump in memory for the faces relative to their memory. Relative to if they're not curious. Now the faces have nothing to do with the trivia question, but it's being in that curious state that drives the dopaminergic activity in the midbrain. So there's a whole lot of other studies findings from that study. But basically, I think it's, god, I got a, you know, sometimes you do a lot of studies and publish like 180 studies. Sounds like I'm trying to remember the exact, I think it was like functional connectivity between the hippocampus and the red brain during the face was predicting better memory for these faces in general, something like that. We can put a link to the paper of course in the show. So let me make sure I understand that the when people are prompted with a question.
故事的第二部分是我们在提问后立即展示人脸。如果人们对问题的答案感到好奇，他们对这些人脸的记忆会更深刻。相比之下，如果他们不感到好奇，这些记忆就不明显。虽然这些人脸和知识问答没有直接关系，但正是这种好奇心状态推动了中脑多巴胺能活动。有很多其他研究的发现，但基本上，我记得可能是，天啊，有时候你做很多研究，发表了大约180篇论文。这听起来像是我在试着记住确切内容，我认为是，如在记忆期间，海马体和红脑之间的功能连接可以预测人们对这些脸的更好记忆等等。我们当然可以在节目中附上论文的链接。所以，我确保我理解的是，当人们被提问时……
Yeah. That drives the release of dopamine. Yeah. The amount of dopamine is proportional to how curious they are to get the answer to that particular question. And then the dopamine itself, if elevated because they are very curious, can increase the probability that they will remember the answer. It creates a milieu, an environment for better memory. But that can confuse us and make us think that dopamine improves our memory, but it's that curiosity increases dopamine, which increases the capacity to store improvement. That's the ability to store information that comes subsequent to curiosity. Beautiful synopsis, but I'll do two cheerful amendments. So one is technically we're not measuring dopamine. So I have to be very clear about that. This is bold signal, meaning it's, you know, metabolic activity, but it's following all the usual suspects of where you'd expect it to be.
好的。这会促使多巴胺的释放。多巴胺的数量与他们想知道特定问题答案的好奇心成正比。如果因为他们非常好奇而导致多巴胺水平升高，这会增加他们记住答案的可能性。它创造了一种更有利于记忆的环境。但这可能会让我们误以为多巴胺提升了我们的记忆力，实际上是好奇心提升了多巴胺，从而提高了储存改善的能力，也就是能够储存好奇心之后获得的信息。这是一个漂亮的总结，但我有两个小建议。首先，我们实际上并没有直接测量多巴胺。因此我必须明确指出这点。我们测量的是脑血氧水平依赖信号（BOLD信号），这代表代谢活动，反映出你期望出现的那些地方的情况。
The second thing is I do think that dopamine is playing a part and I mean, it definitely facilitates plasticity. So I do think it helps in learning the answer for sure. And there's a whole theory called synaptic tagging, which basically says that if you just release a bunch of dopamine and then you have these potentiated synapses that you can drive plasticity in those synapses, even if it's not happening at the same time. But what's really cool is the face has nothing to do with the trivia question. The theory that we have is when you get that bump in dopamine activity, you're motivated, you're energized to get the answer and you're driven towards the state of plasticity. And now I've given you something that has nothing to do with this question and boom, you got it, you know. So when people ask me and they ask me a lot how best to elevate their brain dopamine, one reasonable answer based on this study is curiosity to engage curiosity. Do you know the quote by Dorothy Parker? The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. I believe it was Dorothy Parker. If it wasn't, I'm sure we'll find out quickly in the comments on YouTube. Older people show the effect just as much as younger people do. Kids show it just as much as older people do. It's just something that sticks around.
第二点是我确实认为多巴胺在其中发挥了一定作用，而且的确可以促进大脑的可塑性。因此，我相信它在学习答案方面确实有帮助。有一个叫做“突触标记理论”的说法，基本意思是如果你释放大量多巴胺并有这些增强的突触，即便这些活动不同时发生，你也可以在这些突触中驱动可塑性。但有趣的是，脸部和问答题毫无关系。我们认为，当多巴胺活动增加时，你会有动力和能量去寻找答案，并且你会被推向一种学习状态。现在我给了你一些与问题无关的东西，结果你恍然大悟。所以当人们问我，问得也很多，如何提升大脑中的多巴胺水平时，基于这项研究，一个合理的答案就是培养好奇心。你知道多萝西·帕克的一句名言吗？“无聊的解药是好奇心，没有什么能治愈好奇心。”我相信这句话是多萝西·帕克说的。如果不是，我相信我们会很快在YouTube的评论中发现。年长的人和年轻人一样明显地表现出这种效应，小孩也和老年人一样。所以这是一种一直存在的现象。
So, I mean, speaking to your point, if you are surrounding yourself with things that will stimulate your curiosity, and if you're open to that curiosity, we can talk about knowledge gaps and all these things that stimulate curiosity. Novelty is another one. Richard Morris has some beautiful data on this with rats, but Emeritus Olp and I too have some data with humans. Surprise. All of these things. I have a little chapter in my book on this. Drive that system. So the dopamine system. So basically, if you expose yourself to opportunities to be proven wrong, you expose yourself to new people, places, situations, and you allow yourself to be energized by these things. And not be scared and anxious. Not be like, oh, this person saying something that I disagree with. I can't deal with this, you know, or, oh, we figured this out 30 years ago. We don't need nothing's new here. If you can be open to that, I would argue that you're going to be engaging lots of plasticity, and that's something that's preserved in a little age.
所以，我的意思是，回应你的观点，如果你让自己被能够激发好奇心的事物包围，并且你对这种好奇心持开放态度，我们可以讨论知识差距和所有能够激发好奇心的事物。新奇感是其中之一。Richard Morris 有一些关于此的美丽数据，主要是对老鼠的研究，但 Emeritus Olp 和我也有一些关于人类的研究。惊讶也是其中之一。所有这些都有。我在我的书中写了一个小章节来讨论这些，驱动这个系统，就是多巴胺系统。因此，基本上，如果你让自己有机会被证明是错误的，接触新的人、地点、情况，并且让自己因为这些事情而充满活力，而不是感到恐惧和焦虑，不要想着“哦，这个人说了一些我不同意的，我无法应对”或者“哦，我们 30 年前就弄清楚了，这里没有什么新东西”。如果你能对此保持开放态度，我认为你会激励到许多的脑部可塑性，而这种能力在年长时依然可以保持。
Recently, we had one of the world's experts on romantic relationships on this podcast, Esther Pirel, to be specific. And we talked about a lot of things related to romantic relationships, but she said that one of the most sustaining factors for romantic relationships over long periods of time is a sense of curiosity, both about the other person, but also about oneself and how one changes in the context of the relationship. And also curiosity about where the relationship could eventually go, where one to continue to invest in it. So this word of curiosity seems to be a resounding theme. I'm struck by, although it makes total sense, that curiosity would drive dopamine release in these pathways, that novelty would drive dopamine release in these pathways, and that also in the physical realm, dopamine is so important for physical movement. I don't think this is a coincidence, right? Somehow evolution organized this neuromodulator dopamine to be involved.
最近，我们在播客中邀请了世界上最知名的恋爱关系专家之一，Esther Pirel。我们讨论了许多与恋爱关系相关的话题。她提到，维持长期恋爱关系的一个重要因素是对对方以及对自身的好奇心，尤其是在关系中的变化。同时，也包括对这段关系未来发展的好奇心，如果继续投入其中的话。因此，“好奇心”似乎是一个重要的主题。虽然这完全说得通，但让我印象深刻的是，好奇心可以刺激大脑中的多巴胺释放，新奇感也是如此。在生理层面上，多巴胺对身体运动也非常重要。我认为这并不是巧合，似乎进化过程让这种神经调节剂多巴胺参与其中。
The way I think about it is in both a physical movement. It's required for it, in fact, as well as cognitive movement. What we're really talking about is cognitive forward movement, if there is such a thing. Is there a, we're both neuroscientists, but you're the memory researcher. Is there sort of a word or a framework for thinking about cognitive movement forward, meaning, as opposed to just recycling past ideas and memories, the notion of taking memories and actually putting them, as you said earlier, into the present to anticipate the future, actually forward mental movement? That's a really interesting question. Well, first of all, I want to be careful in not to say dopamine does this because it's kind of your own, it's a trap, right? Well, to be clear, you observed heightened activity in a dopaminergic circuit.
我这样理解它：它既涉及身体上的运动，也包括认知上的运动。实际上，这两者都是必要的。我们真正谈论的是认知上的前进运动，如果这种东西真的存在的话。作为神经科学家，我们都在研究这个领域，但你是研究记忆的。有没有一种词汇或框架可以用来思考认知上的前进运动？这个意思不是仅仅重复过去的想法和记忆，而是像你之前所说的那样，把记忆拿到现在来预见未来，实际上就是向前的心理运动。这是个非常有趣的问题。首先，我想小心不直接说多巴胺就是做这件事的，因为这有点像陷阱，对吧？不过，为了澄清，你观察到了多巴胺神经回路活跃程度的提高。
So the idea that it would not involve dopamine is a bit of a stretch, but you didn't directly show that it was dopaminergic. Yeah, yeah, no, but I wouldn't be exact and just say that assigning a single function to a chemical is risky, but that said, I do believe there's a link. One of the things that you see is in Parkinson's disease, dopaminergic neurotransmitter mission is shot, and depression is also a symptom of Parkinson's disease. It's quite a severe one, in fact. And so what I think one theory goes is that dopamine energizes us to seek rewards or to seek information, right?
所以，说这个问题不涉及多巴胺有点牵强，但你并没有直接证明它是与多巴胺相关的。是的，是的，不过我不会只简化地说某种化学物质只负责某个功能，这样说风险很大，但尽管如此，我确实相信其中有联系。其中一个你可以观察到的现象是在帕金森病中，多巴胺神经递质的功能出现问题，而抑郁症也是帕金森病的一个症状，事实上相当严重。因此，我认为有一种理论认为，多巴胺激励我们去追求奖励或是去寻找信息，对吧？
So a big part of movement is you move to get something. It's approach, right? They talk about approach and avoidance as basic kind of things that you want to program. And so a person with Parkinson's disease has a problem with willful movement, tremors and stuff too. But I think that dopamine is involved in this kind of energizing you to move. I think it's involved in energizing you to seek information. I think it's involved in energizing you to seek rewards. And so I do think there's some kind of a common pathway there.
因此，运动的一大部分是为了得到某些东西而移动。这可以理解为一种"接近"行为，对吧？他们常讨论的“接近”和“回避”就是这种你想要进行的基础行为。所以，患有帕金森病的人在主动移动方面会遇到问题，比如震颤等。但我认为多巴胺在激励你进行移动方面起着作用。我认为它在激励你去寻求信息和奖励方面同样起到作用。因此，我确实认为这里存在某种共同的机制。
And it speaks to this issue of the difference which you've talked about, and I talk about a lot as wanting versus liking. And so Kent Barrage at Michigan's great work on those ways. And gobs and gobs of manipulations of dopamine activity. And what he finds as an animal, let's say, that is deprived of dopamine, it will go for rewards just fine. It just won't work for them. It won't do the work that you need to get a reward. But if you just put it in front of them, they'll take it. So what dopamine, it is heavily involved with these opioid systems that does drive reward responses. And it's heavily involved in learning about rewards.
这段话主要讨论了“想要”和“喜欢”之间的区别。密歇根大学的Kent Barrage在这方面的研究很出色。他进行了大量关于多巴胺活动的操控实验。他发现，如果将动物的多巴胺剥夺，它仍然会对奖励感兴趣，但不会为了获得奖励而付出努力。如果奖励就在它面前，它会接受。因此，多巴胺与驱动奖赏反应的阿片系统有很大关系，并且在学习关于奖励的信息中起到重要作用。
And that's why you get a big dopamine or a big bump when an animal gets a reward. Because you're learning about the reward and what predicted the reward. There's a little bit of a credit assignment process that takes place. What's interesting is you get this too with, actually, my colleague at Davis, Brian Wilchin. It's a beautiful work where he's looked at trace conditioning, which is when you have like a, let's say if you play a tone and you wait a long time, and then the animal gets a shock, right?
这就是为什么当动物得到奖励时，你会体验到大量的多巴胺激增的原因。因为这是你在学习关于奖励的信息，以及是什么预测了这个奖励。在这一过程中，会涉及到一些“信用分配”的过程。有趣的是，你也可以从这种现象中得到同样的体验。实际上，我在戴维斯的同事布莱恩·威尔钦研究过这一方面，这是一个非常精彩的研究。他研究了"痕迹条件反射"，意思是，比如说，你先播放一个声音，等待很长一段时间后，动物才会受到电击。
And so what you find is that the animal learns to be afraid of the tone. But it's such a long time in his thing, I think it's on the order of 10 seconds or above. The animal has to be somehow doing something to be able to blame that tone for getting shocked, right? And so what he found was that there's this burst of dopamine activity in the locus rulius, that's actually known for norepinephrine, but there's really cool work on dopamine in the LC now, modulating hippocampus. Sorry to get all the nerdy here, but. No, no, no, no, just me. This audience likes nerdy. I think that's why, part of why they're listening.
所以，你会发现动物会学习对音调感到害怕。但是，这个过程需要很长时间，我想大概需要10秒钟或更久。在这段时间里，动物必须做些什么才能把受到电击的原因归咎到那个音调上，对吗？研究者发现，在蓝斑核（主要与去甲肾上腺素有关）会有多巴胺活动的爆发，最新研究表明多巴胺在蓝斑核中也会影响海马体。抱歉有点专业。不过，不用担心，这里观众喜欢深入探讨，我想这也是他们为什么在听的部分原因。
Locus rulius is just an area of the brain that tends to sprinkler large brain areas with epinephrine, which is, or norepinephrine, nore adrenaline for alertness, so somewhat distinct from the dopamine system, but you're telling us it can also release dopamine? Yes, that's right. Sometimes they co-release from the same neurons, from what I understand. And so what seems to be happening is, and he's studying this now, but what seems to be happening is it's not that the animal's going, oh, I just heard a tone, I heard a tone, and then they get shocked.
Locus rulius 是大脑的一个区域，它会向大面积的大脑区域释放肾上腺素，也叫去甲肾上腺素，用于提高警觉性，这和多巴胺系统有些区别。不过你是说这个区域也能释放多巴胺吗？是的，没错。据我所知，有时候它们会从相同的神经元中共同释放。当前的研究表明，情况似乎并不是动物听到一个声音，就会想到自己听到了声音，然后受到惊吓。
It may be more like they get a shock, and then they get an immediate, what just happened, and then they get a memory retrieval of the tone, and that allows them to put the two together to learn that this tone caused the shock, right? And dopamine seems to be playing a part in that learning process, too. So it's not just about reward. It's really kind of, you know, the next time you hear that tone, you might, if it were a real threat, you could actually escape from it, right? And there's this whole active avoidance literature that you can look at with these approach circuits that are actually quite useful for avoiding threats and avoiding punishment.
这段话的大意是这样：他们可能先受到惊吓，然后立刻会有一种“刚才发生了什么”的反应，接着他们会回忆起听过的音调，从而将两者联系起来，学会这个音调与惊吓之间的因果关系，对吧？多巴胺似乎也参与了这个学习过程，所以这不仅仅是关于奖赏的事情。实际上，下次再听到这个音调时，如果这是真正的威胁，你就可以及时逃避它，对吧？关于这种积极回避的研究文献可以帮助我们理解这些应对回路，它们对于避免威胁和惩罚非常有用。
So it's really, to me, I see this role for energizing, and that's often rewards. I mean, I like rewards as much as the next guy, right? I mean, look at how much coffee I drank when I got here. So it's not that, but it's just that it's mobilizing you, I think. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1. The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life. For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micro nutrients, and adaptogens from food alone. For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012 and often twice a day, once in the morning or mid-morning and again in the afternoon or evening. When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome. These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim their special offer. Right now, they're giving away five retravel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com slash Huberman to claim that special offer.
对于我来说，这个角色真正的意义在于激励，这常常是通过奖励来实现的。我喜欢奖励，和别人一样，对吧？想想我来到这里后喝了多少咖啡。所以，这并不是问题，关键在于它能激发你的活力。我想花一点时间来感谢我们的赞助商，AG1。目前，许多人都听我说过，如果我只能选择一种补充剂，那一定是AG1。原因在于，AG1是目前市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充品。这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还包括益生菌、益生元和适应原，能够填补你饮食中的任何空白，支持繁忙的生活。对我来说，即使我大多数时候都尽量吃全食物和少加工食品，要从食物中获得足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素以及适应原，还是很困难的。正因如此，自2012年以来，我每天都服用AG1，经常在早上或上午中段以及下午或晚上各一次。这样做显著提升了我的能量、免疫系统和肠道微生物群。这些对大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等方面都至关重要。如果你想尝试AG1，可以访问drinkag1.com/Huberman，获取他们的特别优惠。目前，他们正在赠送五包旅行装加上一年份的维生素D3K2。再次提醒，访问drinkag1.com/Huberman来领取这份特别优惠。
One thing that we talked about just briefly earlier was this non-sleep-depressed protocol that in yoga tradition is called yoga nidra or yoga sleep, because you lie down. It's self-directed relaxation, long exhale, breathing to slow your heart rate, etc., etc. I called it NSDR, not to appropriate it, but because the language of yoga nidra is a little bit of a separator for people. It sounds a little bit esoteric, and non-sleep-deep-ress tells you what it is. There's a study at the University of Copenhagen, I can write a link to it in the show note captions, and I'd love your thoughts on it, that show that people who do this practice, this is a pet imaging study, it's a positron emission, tomography for those that don't know, and they see significant increases in striatal dopamine in the condition of people that do this self-directed relaxation as opposed to a more traditional meditation. This is why I say that NSDR is useful for restoring mental and physical vigor, which translates to this idea that dopamine prepares us for a reservoir for potential movement, typically toward rewards.
我们之前简要讨论过一个关于非睡眠深度放松的协议，在瑜伽传统中称为瑜伽休眠或瑜伽睡眠，因为练习时需要躺下。这是一种自我引导的放松方式，包括缓慢呼吸和长呼气，以降低心率等。我称之为NSDR（非睡眠深度放松），不是为了占用这个名称，而是因为"瑜伽休眠"这个说法对某些人来说有些难以理解，听起来有些神秘，而"非睡眠深度放松"直接告诉你这是什么。在哥本哈根大学的一项研究中，这是一个正电子发射断层扫描研究，结果显示：相比于传统的冥想，进行这种自我引导放松练习的人，其纹状体内的多巴胺显著增加。我认为这就是NSDR有助于恢复身心活力的原因，因为多巴胺为我们向奖励迈进的潜在运动提供了储备。如果你有兴趣，我可以在节目说明中附上研究链接，我也很想听听你的看法。
I love that we're talking about some of the other facets of dopamine, because all too often people think about it as pleasure or motivation, and certainly it's involved in motivation. I'm very happy to learn that it's also involved in learning. Oh, I'm serious. That's a novel perspective on dopamine, and we hear so much about dopamine. Do you think that when dopamine is released as a consequence of curiosity in a way that primes the memory system, that we become a part of the system? We become entrenched in particular behaviors or routes of pursuing curiosity to the exclusion of others. What I'm thinking about here is a kid, we've seen these data, kids with ADHD actually have terrific ability to focus, if it's something that they're really excited about, really curious about. So you give a kid with ADHD who loves video games, a video game, and they're like a laser. So it's not that they lack the capacity to focus, it's that they have a harder time dropping into focus. But it seems that because of the learning dimension to dopamine, that these circuits could potentially, quote unquote, learn that it's video games that provides that feeling of focus to the exclusion of other things, meaning how does one keep a diversification of inputs to the dopamine system so that we're continually driving dopamine through lots of different things as opposed to just social media or just video games or just pick your favorite thing. Becoming a functional human being involves the requirement to focus on many things, not just the things we were curious about.
我很高兴我们正在讨论多巴胺的其他方面，因为人们通常认为多巴胺只与快乐或动机有关，当然，它确实参与动机。我很高兴了解到它也与学习相关。这是关于多巴胺的新观点，因为我们听到太多关于多巴胺的讨论。你认为当多巴胺由于好奇心的激发而释放，并促进记忆系统时，我们会陷入某些行为模式或追求好奇心的路径中，而忽视其他的可能性吗？我的想法是，比如我们看到过这些数据，患有多动症的孩子如果对某件事非常感兴趣或好奇，他们实际上有很强的集中能力。所以如果你给一个喜欢电子游戏的多动症孩子一个视频游戏，他们就会全神贯注。因此，不是他们缺乏专注能力，而是更难进入专注状态。但由于多巴胺的学习特性，这些神经回路可能会"学会"电子游戏提供那种专注感，而忽略其他事物。那么，如何保持多巴胺系统的输入多样性，以便通过多种不同的事物，而不仅仅是社交媒体或电子游戏，来持续激发多巴胺呢？成为一个功能正常的人需要能够专注于多种事物，而不仅仅是我们好奇的事情。
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to me, I talk about this a little bit in the book, but to me, and if you look at the literature, you can see this, a big part of being curious is the appraisal process, so to speak. And what I mean by that is saying something happens, right, let's say something in your environment happens. If you're going to, you have a decision to make, is this interesting? Is this important? Is this scary? And I think the thing is that you need to be open to that possibility that it's interesting. So, like, so let me just give you like an example that I often give. Let's say you're walking in a neighborhood, you're traveling like you do for many of your events, and you walk into a new neighborhood you haven't been to, it's nighttime, kind of poorly lit, and you hear a loud noise, right? You could be like, well, that's a gunshot. I better hide, or I better run. Or you could be like, oh, maybe there's a club nearby, and there's like a cool band playing. I should go check this out. That appraisal is really critical for how you respond. And so it's not just a matter of curiosity happens. It's a process of cultivation, and it's a process of appraisal.
是的，是的，是的。我在书中稍微谈到过这个问题，对我来说，如果你查阅相关文献也会看到，这很大程度上与好奇心的评估过程有关。我所指的是，当某事发生，比如你周围环境中出现某个事件时，你需要做出决定：这是有趣的吗？重要吗？可怕吗？关键在于，你要对它可能有趣这一点保持开放态度。让我举个常用的例子：假设你正在旅行，走进一个你以前没去过的社区，夜色已深，光线不足，突然听到一声巨响。你可能会想，这是不是枪声？我要躲起来还是逃跑？或者你可能会想，也许附近有个俱乐部，有个不错的乐队在演出，我应该去看看。这种评估对你的反应方式非常关键。所以，好奇心不仅仅是自然发生的，这是一个培养和评估的过程。
And so, I mean, this is, I think, you know, I'm not a wellness guru or anything, but it's like, I think this is one of the cool things about mindfulness training, is it forces you to take the mundane and be curious about it. And when you start paying attention to your breathing, my friend, Mishi Jaws, really kind of turned me on to this, she wrote a book on mindfulness and meditation. And one of the things that happens is your breathing, you realize, wait a minute. This one isn't the same as the last one, right? Or you can do these meditators. I'm sure you've done this, right? This part of, like, this sound is different. I'll sit in the backyard doing, thanks to you, I do this morning, ten minute thing. And so I'll be out in the backyard, and I'll be like hearing some sound, and I'll be like, oh, that sound. There's a bird there. I didn't even notice that, you know, and then there's some other sound. I'm hearing the freeway. That's annoying, but I heard it. And so these, it's really a matter of paying attention in some ways, and being open to it. And I think this speaks back to this thing about as you get older, sometimes people find it scary to be in a new place. People find it scary to meet a person who's different from them, or so forth. I mean, I love listening to music that's a little bit out of my comfort zone, so people hate it, you know? So I think some of it is sort of cultivating and being comfortable with discomfort. I think it's such an important theme. I feel like nowadays, in part because of the algorithms on social media, we are fed things that feed our progressively greater and greater scrolling and dwell time, as it's called. The algorithms are measuring clearly how long we dwell on a given image and what's in that image, et cetera. But it would be nice to cultivate an algorithm for curiosity. I think surely it can be done. I mean, you got all these smart computer scientists and AI folks.
所以，我的意思是，我觉得，这个，我不是健康导师或类似的，但我认为正念训练的一大优点在于，它迫使你对平凡的事物保持好奇。当你开始关注自己的呼吸时，我的朋友Mishi Jaws让我对这很感兴趣，她写了一本关于正念和冥想的书。其中一个现象就是你会意识到每次呼吸都不一样，对吧？或者你可以进行冥想练习。我确信你也做过，比如这种声音和上次有点不同。早上，我都会花十分钟坐在后院感谢你让我养成这个习惯。我会听到某个声音，然后觉得，哦，那是只鸟，我以前甚至没注意到，还有其他声音，比如听到高速公路的声音，虽然有点烦人，但我听到了。其实，这就是在某种程度上注意力和开放态度的问题。这让我想起，随着年龄的增长，有些人发现去一个新地方很可怕，或见一个不同的人很可怕。但我喜欢听出我舒适区的音乐，虽然有些人讨厌这样的音乐。我觉得这跟培养并习惯不适感有关，这是一个非常重要的主题。我觉得如今，部分因为社交媒体上的算法，我们被不断推送那些增加我们浏览和停留时间的内容。算法清楚地测量我们在某个图片上停留的时间以及图片内容等。但培养一种好奇的算法会更好，我觉得这完全可以做到，毕竟有这么多聪明的计算机科学家和人工智能专家在。
And we come into this world naturally curious. All primates, including humans, will visually fixate on anything that's novel, right? And study it. I'm trying to make predictions and gain understanding. Maybe now will be a good time for us to discuss a little bit about the circuitry involved in memory, so that we have that as a template to digest some other themes in memory. Most people are probably familiar with the so-called hippocampus, which is a mean seahorse. It looks a little bit like a seahorse, although the anatomists had a little bit of an imagination, in my opinion. But hippocampus, let's add to it prefrontal cortex, which you've already mentioned, and then these neuromodulatory systems. So if we were going to assign a one-sentence function, a functional definition to each of those areas, what would you say the hippocampus does? Well, first of all, we'll add a whole lot of other new cortical areas to talk about. I'll just add those in, but if we can start with three, I think then folks can digest it. Yeah, so the hippocampus is controversial. I mean, it's the most studied area of the brain, arguably, except for maybe V1. Visual cortex, V1. Yeah.
我们天生就有好奇心，所有灵长类动物，包括人类，都会对任何新奇的事物产生视觉上的注视并研究它，试图做出预测并获取理解。现在也许是个好时机来讨论一下与记忆相关的神经回路，这样我们可以用这个模板来理解记忆的其他主题。大多数人可能都听说过所谓的海马体，它的名字来源于它的形状像一匹小海马。尽管在我看来，解剖学家有点发挥了他们的想象力。除了海马体，我们还要加上你已经提到的前额皮质，以及这些神经调节系统。如果我们要为每个区域分配一个简单的功能定义，你会说海马体的功能是什么呢？首先，我们会谈到许多其他新的皮层区域，但如果我们从这三个开始，我想大家会更容易理解。海马体的功能比较有争议，它可能是大脑中研究最多的区域之一，可能仅次于视觉皮层V1。
But I believe, and my colleagues do, I wrote a big paper with Howard Aikon, the late Howard Aikon-Bom and Andy Onelinus on this, who, you know, from Davis. And we believe that it's about linking various experiences to a context. And what I mean by that is you've got information about smell, high-level vision, high-level semantic knowledge information, right? And the hippocampus's wiring is really set up to not understand what's going on. So the late David Marro's pioneer in computational neuroscience proposed that what the hippocampus is about is what's he called simple memory. It's basically saying, I know Andy Hubermann. Sorry. He's okay. He used to call me Andy. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. A long story. That's a Davis thing. You would understand. So I know Andy Hubermann, right? But to have a memory of this moment that's separate from, let's say, I saw you at some neuroscience retreat when we were in grad school, I have to have some part of the brain that doesn't know who you are to some extent, right? Because I got to keep them separate. And so there are the hippocampus. What it'll do is it'll form a memory that's not an Andy Hubermann memory. It's an Andy in this place at this time in this context. And that's what allows it to support what's called episodic memory, which is your ability to say, I went to Washington, DC once. And I remember going to the Smithsonian as opposed to your knowledge about what generally happens in Washington, DC, or the presidents there. Oh, that's where a lot of politics happen. Oh, the Smithsonian is a place in DC. It's a memory of your being there at a particular place in time.
我相信，我的同事们也是这样认为的。我与已经去世的霍华德·艾肯·邦和安迪·奥尼勒斯一起写了一篇重要的论文，安迪你可能认识，是来自戴维斯的人。我们认为，这涉及将各种体验与特定情境联系起来。我指的是，你有关于嗅觉、高层次视觉、高层次语义知识的信息，对吧？而海马体的连接方式其实并不是为了理解正在发生的事情。已故的计算神经科学先驱大卫·马罗提出，海马体的作用是他所称的简单记忆。基本上就是说，我认识安迪·胡伯曼。抱歉。他挺好的。他以前这样叫我安迪。这没问题。嗯，是个长故事，这是戴维斯的事，你应该懂。所以我认识安迪·胡伯曼，对吧？但要记住这个时刻，并与我在研究生阶段某个神经科学研讨会上见到你的经历区分开，我需要大脑中有个部分在某种程度上并不认识你，因为我得将它们区分开。所以，海马体会形成一种记忆，这不是单纯关于安迪·胡伯曼的记忆，而是在某个地方、某个时间、某个情境下的安迪的记忆。这就支持了所谓的情景记忆，你能够说我曾去过华盛顿特区，并记得去过史密森尼博物馆，而不仅仅是关于华盛顿特区通常会发生什么事情，或者那里有哪几位总统，哦，那是一个政治活动频繁的地方，哦，史密森尼是特区的一个地方。这是关于你在特定时间和地点的记忆。
Now, there's other parts of the brain that allow you to associate that information in a meaningful way and to be able to actually expand on that context and create these narratives and these stories about it. And where the prefrontal cortex comes in, and it's a huge area. It's about one third of the primate brain. So it's just massive. There are a lot of people who go, well, there's no real there's a bunch of different areas and I'll do different things. And I subscribe to the view that that is very true. And at the same time, there's a global function of the prefrontal cortex, which is what's called cognitive control.
现在，大脑还有其他部分能够让你以有意义的方式将信息联系起来，并能够拓展这些背景，创造出相关的叙述和故事。其中，前额叶皮层（prefrontal cortex）起着重要作用，这是一个非常大的区域，占据了灵长类动物大脑的三分之一，所以它非常巨大。有很多人认为，前额叶皮层内部有许多不同的区域，各自负责不同的功能。我同意这种观点，同时也认为前额叶皮层有一个整体功能，那就是所谓的认知控制（cognitive control）。
It's this ability to say, I'm going to regulate my movements and I'm going to regulate my perceptions and my thoughts based on what's important to me in terms of this higher order goal. So when I tested, for instance, patients with prefrontal lesions, I'm sure Mark Desposito talked to you about this. It's like the hallmark of them. These say, well, the prefrontal cortex, it's important for working memory and you could record from neurons in the prefrontal cortex or look at after my signal. And if a person or an animal is holding something in their mind, like a phone number, neurons or bold signal and MRI will be highly elevated. Their activity will be elevated throughout this period of time where they're holding in mind.
这段英文的意思是说，一个人能够根据重要的高级目标来调节自己的动作、感知和思维。这种能力非常关键。例如，我测试过前额皮质受损的病人。我相信 Mark Desposito 也跟你提到过这点。前额皮质的标志性功能就是它对工作记忆的重要性。你可以从前额皮质的神经元中记录信号，或者在 MRI 中观察信号。当一个人或动物心中记住某个东西，比如一个电话号码时，神经元或在 MRI 中的 BOLD信号会非常活跃。这种活动会在他们记住信息的整个期间保持高水平。
But it turns out if you just ask somebody with a major prefrontal lesion, here's a bunch of numbers. 5, 2, 7, 8, ask you to tell them back to me in right order. They can do it just fine. But now I start to distract them. I move my hands around. There's a plane going on, flying outside the window. I mean, I had that literally happen once. Now they start to bomb it because their attention is not controlled by their goal. It's controlled by the environment around them.
事实证明，如果你让一个有严重前额叶损伤的人背一串数字，比如5, 2, 7, 8，他们可以正确复述。但是，如果我开始分散他们的注意力，比如在他们面前挥动双手，或是窗外有飞机飞过——我确实亲身经历过这种情况——他们就会开始出错。这是因为他们的注意力不再受目标的控制，而是被周围的环境影响。
And so this is where things get really interesting. So I once tested a patient and I had heard about this, but until you see it, it doesn't register. It really blew my mind. So there's a test called the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test. We don't have to get into all the details of it. But basically it's this test where people learn some rule about where to put a card on a table. And they don't get told the rule. They just learn it. And patients learn this prefrontal damage. Learn it just fine. Is it that they get an error signal or a correct signal if they're doing it in the right direction over time? They just kind of bring figures it out? Yeah.
这就是事情变得非常有趣的地方。我曾经测试过一名患者，我之前听说过这种情况，但直到亲眼见到时，才能真正理解。这让我非常震惊。有一种叫做威斯康星卡片分类测试的测试，我们不需要详细了解它的所有细节。基本上，这是一个测试，人们需要学会某种规则来决定如何在桌子上放卡片。这个规则不会直接告诉他们，他们需要自己摸索出来。即使是前额叶受损的患者也能很好地学会这套规则。他们是通过不断地根据正确与否的反馈来逐渐摸索出这个规则的吗？是的，他们就是这样慢慢搞明白的。
So maybe I'll give a little bit more background, but I don't want to go in the weeks. No, that's OK. If I'm correct, if I'm wrong, I forget the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test details. But they're told they just start storing the cards and that the correct algorithm will reveal itself by a series of error and correct signals. And so maybe I'm taking all the red cards and putting in one pile of black cards and putting in another and getting error signals so that maybe I go odds evens. Maybe I divide by suit if it's depending on what kind of cards they are. Maybe I organize by even odd alteration. And sooner or later, the brain figures it out.
所以，也许我会稍微多给一些背景知识，但我不想深入细节。没关系。如果我没记错的话，我忘记了威斯康星卡片分类测验的具体细节。不过，他们被要求开始对卡片进行分类，通过一系列的错误和正确信号来揭示正确的算法。比如说，我可能把所有的红色卡片放在一堆，黑色卡片放在另一堆，如果收到错误信号，我可能会尝试按奇偶数来分类。或者如果根据卡片的种类，我可能按花色来分类，或者按奇偶交替来整理卡片。最终，大脑会弄明白正确的方式。
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you don't need a prefrontal cortex to do that, which is surprising, but you don't. You can do it. So there's context dependent action and learning without the prefrontal cortex? Yes, but let's unpack this context then, right? So now you've been, let's say, putting all the diamonds in one pile. You've been putting all the spades in another pile, right? So now I change the rule, but I don't tell you, and you put the diamonds, the queen of diamonds in the diamond pile, let's say. And now I say, nope, that's wrong. So now you have to wait a minute. That was right all this time. What's going on? This is like life. This is like life, right?
是的，完全正确。而且你不需要前额叶皮质就能够做到这一点，这令人惊讶，但确实如此。你可以做到。所以有没有前额叶皮质也可以进行情境依赖的行动和学习？是的，但让我们来解读这个情境，现在假设你之前一直把所有的方块牌放在一堆，把所有的黑桃牌放在另一堆。现在我改变了规则，但没有告诉你，然后你把方块Q放进了方块的那一堆。我说，不对，那是错误的。于是你会想，等等，这一直以来都是对的，到底发生了什么？这就像生活一样，对吧？
The thing that used to work for you no longer works. So you keep doing this and a person with an intact brain will eventually figure out, okay, that's not working. I'll try another strategy and then they'll learn the new rule, right? It's not easy. It's a pain, but people will do it. This patient, in particular, kept on using the old rule. And so you have to give a series of hints going like, hmm, what's your strategy here? And they're like, they'll tell you I'm putting it according to the color. And then you, okay, well, does that appear to be working for you? And they'll go, no. They'll keep doing it. They perseverate. They persevorate. But the interesting thing is he knows it's not working, but he can't help himself from doing it. And so what the prefrontal cortex is, it's not about this declarative knowledge about what you should do.
曾经对你有效的事情现在不再有效了。所以你一直这样做，而一个头脑正常的人最终会意识到，“嗯，这不管用了，我要尝试其他策略”，然后他们会学会新的规则，对吧？这并不容易，是个麻烦，但人们会去做。但是，这位病人特别地一直在用旧的规则。因此，你需要给出一系列的提示，比如，“嗯，你的策略是什么呢？” 他们会说“我是按照颜色来放的”。然后你问，“那这对你来说有用吗？”他们会说“不”，但还是继续这样做。他们会表现出刻板行为。但是有趣的是，他知道这没效果，但就是忍不住这样做。所以前额叶皮层的功能并不是关于该做什么的明确知识。
And I think this is very deep because I think often we get more realistic about people's actions, especially for people who have head injuries or something like that. And it's like, you can have all of these beliefs that you want to have, but you need the prefrontal cortex to translate these high-order beliefs, things that are very abstract, into actual concrete action. Otherwise, what you do is not going to be dictated by that knowledge.
我认为这很深刻，因为我们往往会对人们的行为有更现实的看法，尤其是那些有头部受伤等情况的人。你可以拥有各种各样的信念，但你需要大脑的前额叶皮层来把这些高层次、非常抽象的信念转化为实际的行动。否则，你的行动将不会受到这些知识的支配。
So how this relates to memory is we're constantly braged by information. I think it might have said something like 35 terabytes. I don't know, but it's a big number and the estimates get bigger and bigger every year. So we're braged by information. There's no way you can even pay attention to it all, right? So you really rely on the prefrontal cortex to be able to say, this is what I'm doing right now. And everything else, it's noise. Here's the signal that I need to focus on. And that's super important for memory because one of the things you see in old age is older people are bad at most memory tests. But it turns out in labs, we kind of overestimate that. And the reason we overestimate it is we're giving them a test, which is something hard. It requires a lot of focus and it's not something they do every day. But Karen Campbell and Lynn Hasher are these great cognitive psychologists did this cool experiment where they had a bunch of other stuff that people were supposed to ignore in this memory test, where they're studying a bunch of things. They're trying to memorize a bunch of stuff, but there's stuff going on they're supposed to ignore.
这段话的意思是说，这与记忆的关系在于我们不断被大量信息轰炸。有人说这些信息的量可能有35TB，我不确定，但数字很大，并且这个估计值每年都在增加。因此，我们被信息淹没，根本不可能关注所有的信息，对吧？这时候，我们非常依赖前额皮质来决定“我现在要做什么”，而其他一切都是噪音。找出真正需要关注的信号对于记忆非常重要。因为你会在老年时发现，许多老年人在记忆测试中表现不佳。但实验室往往会高估这一点。原因是这些测试通常很难，需要集中很多注意力，并不是他们每天都会做的事情。不过，认知心理学家卡伦·坎贝尔（Karen Campbell）和琳·哈谢尔（Lynn Hasher）做了一个很酷的实验。在这个记忆测试中，他们让参与者在研究一堆事情时，还要忽略一些不相关的信息。
The older people were just as good as the younger people and remembering the stuff they were supposed to ignore. They were just bad at the stuff that they were supposed to pay attention to. That's so interesting. Maybe you could say that another time. You said it very clearly. I got it. But say it one more time because if anyone missed it, this is super important. Older people can. They were bad at remembering the stuff that they were supposed to remember. But they were just as good as the younger people, maybe even better, but definitely as good as the younger people. And remembering the things that they weren't supposed to pay attention to. Gosh, it speaks to almost two parallel processing streams for memory, if I'm not mistaken.
年长者在记住他们不该记住的东西方面，和年轻人一样出色，甚至可能更好。但在记住他们本该注意的事情上，他们表现得不太好。这真的很有趣。也许可以再说一遍。你刚才说得很清楚，我明白了。但可以再说一次，因为如果有人错过了，这是非常重要的重点。年长者的表现是这样的：他们不善于记住本应记住的东西，但在记住不该注意的事情上，表现得和年轻人一样好，甚至更好。这似乎说明记忆有两种平行处理模式，如果我没有理解错的话。
So what's going on there? One form of memory involves the suppression of information and that circuit is actually quite active in these older people and young people. Whereas curiosity for and the ability to remember and integrate new information is somehow diminished in older people. Earlier we were talking about how that's not the case that curiosity is intact. Memory is intact and growing. Yeah. Well, okay. I should say the benefit of curiosity on memory is intact in older people. I got that wrong. I don't know. Mityas could tell me if I just email them at a break or something. But I don't know if curiosity itself is as high in older adults. I would say so. I would support it or. I would just know.
那么，这是什么情况呢？有一种记忆形式涉及信息的抑制，而这种回路在老年人和年轻人中实际上都很活跃。然而，对于新信息的好奇心和记忆与整合能力在老年人中似乎有所减弱。之前我们谈过这并不意味着老年人的好奇心就会减弱。记忆仍然存在并有所增长。对，很好。我应该说，好奇心对记忆的好处在老年人中仍然是有效的。我说错了这一点。我也不确定好奇心本身在老年人中是否仍然很高。我会这样说。我会支持这个观点，或者说我只是感觉如此。
But this is why I asked about movement earlier. It's also curiosity is also linked to your ability to access novel scenarios. Of course, online you can just thumb, scroll, or click and access all sorts of novelty. Is there any. There must be data as to whether or not people in their 70s, 80s, and 90s are scrolling social media to the same extent that younger people are? I don't know, but I can say two things to this. One is that definitely there's a lot of work on media multitasking. The short answer is bad for memory period. Okay.
这就是为什么我之前询问关于运动的原因。好奇心也与你接触新鲜事物的能力有关。当然，在网上你可以通过点击、滑动等方式轻松接触各种新鲜内容。那么有没有相关数据说明七八十岁甚至九十岁的人使用社交媒体的程度是否与年轻人相同呢？我不确定，但可以说两点：首先，关于多媒体任务的研究很多，而简而言之，这对记忆不好。
So scrolling is bad for memory. Well, media multitasking is bad for memory. The tech thing is a super fascinating area in general. It's really how we interact with the tech that's bad. But if you're an older adult, your frontal function is not going to be as good. You will be more distractible. You will be more likely to go off course. And so that scrolling is going to be more potent because as you pointed out, the algorithms are all designed to suck up our attention. Psychologist Herb Simon came up with this beautiful term called the attention economy. And so the idea is that the more information that you have in front of you, the more impoverished you are in terms of your attention. So there's no such thing as free speech because it's like you have a limited supply of attention.
所以，刷屏对记忆力不好。其实，多任务处理媒体对记忆力也有负面影响。这方面的技术确实非常有趣，主要是因为我们与技术互动的方式是有问题的。但如果你是年长者，你的前额叶功能可能不如年轻人那么好，你会更容易分心，更容易偏离课程。因此，刷屏的影响会更明显。正如你所提到的，各种算法都是为了吸引我们的注意力而设计的。心理学家赫伯特·西蒙提出了一个很好的概念，称为注意力经济。这个想法是，面对的信息越多，你的注意力资源就越匮乏。因此，所谓的言论自由实际上并不存在，因为我们的注意力供应是有限的。
So everything has a cost. And so the more information you have in front of you, the harder it is to pay attention to what's important. And that's where I think the older adults really lose some of their functioning because basically I talk about in the book and it's not a perfect analogy is neurons are functioning kind of like a democracy in the sense that, you know, real democracies involve these political coalitions or alliances.
所以一切都有代价。因此，当你面前的信息越多时，越难专注于重要的事情。这就是为什么我认为老年人在某些功能上有所下降的原因，因为我在书中提到，虽然这不是一个完全恰当的比喻，但神经元的运作有点像民主制度，因为真实的民主制度涉及政治联盟或合伙关系。
And people talk about the right and left with us dumb because it's like there's just alliances between people who like different things and they just formed these convenient alliances. Let's just imagine neurons kind of do this in the brain. And so you have in theory to be able to pay attention to something. Some coalition of neurons has to be firing a lot that is corresponding to the thing that you're trying to pay attention to.
人们谈论左右派的观点时，我们傻傻地跟着讨论，因为实际上，那只是一些喜好不同的人结成的便利联盟。我们可以想象大脑中的神经元也是这样运作的。为了能够专注于某件事情，某一组神经元需要大量活跃，与我们试图集中注意力的事物相对应。
But if something is salient, bright, shiny, loud, it's just grabbing your attention. What's going to happen is is that those neurons start to shout down the neurons that are trying to keep you on what's not shiny, but it's important. Right. And so what happens is with the prefrontal cortex, you can bias that competition. That's the term that people have used in literature that allows you. So what people have found for us is just a really cool finding again is you can find in the visual cortex neurons that fire when you're seeing something red and runs that fire when you see something blue. Let's say, right?
如果某个事物特别显眼、明亮、闪亮或者声音很大，它就会抓住你的注意力。结果是，这些显眼事物的神经元开始压制那些想让你专注于不那么显眼但很重要事物的神经元。因此，前额叶皮质会影响这种竞争，这就是文献中提到的术语。人们发现一个非常有趣的现象是，在视觉皮层中，可以找到一些对看到红色有反应的神经元，也可以找到一些对看到蓝色有反应的神经元。
I'm kind of distorting the picture, but you get the idea. So if an animal is trying to hold in mind something, I'd say hold on a mental picture of something that's blue, what happens is the blue neurons are firing in visual cortex, even though the animals not seeing blue, right? It's just they're thinking about blue. You damage the prefrontal cortex. Nothing. So you lose that selectivity. So what's happening is the prefrontal cortex is biasing the competition and saying, I know blue's not shining in front of you. There's no shiny blue thing in front of you right now, but I need these neurons to stay active.
我有点扭曲了这个画面，但你明白我的意思。假如一只动物试图在脑海中记住一个想法，比如一个蓝色的东西，会发生什么呢？即使动物没有真的看到蓝色，但视觉皮层中的蓝色神经元仍然在活跃着，因为它们只是在思考蓝色。如果你损坏了前额皮层，那就没有这种选择性的活动了。前额皮层的作用就是在竞争中产生偏向，它会告诉你：“我知道现在面前没有蓝色的东西，但我需要这些神经元保持活跃。”
And so it's doing this modulation to help out the neurons that are keeping the information that's going relevant. So what happens when that communication goes? Let's say, due to hypertension, diabetes, you get all this white matter damage that happens with old age. And this is really a big thing that is very preventable with the right protocols, so to speak. I'll just read that white matter are the fiber tracks, the wires that essentially that connect neurons across long and short distances.
这段文字的大意是在解释大脑中神经元之间的通信，以及这种通信在某些情况下可能会受到影响。当大脑中的神经元进行信息传递时，调节机制可以帮助维持相关信息的传递。然而，当这种通信受到干扰时，比如说，由于高血压、糖尿病或老龄化带来的白质损伤就会发生问题。值得注意的是，这种情况事实上是可以通过正确的措施来预防的。这里提到的“白质”主要是指这些连接神经元的纤维束，就像连接长短距离神经元的电线一样。
Exactly. Yeah. And so if you damage those long range tracks, the prefrontal cortex is not efficiently able to bias that competition. And so now the inane gets remembered at the expense of the important. That's I think the key thing. And a lot of that's why people talk about the prefrontal cortex as the central executive. As many of you who's worked a job knows it's like the executives are useless. Right. He's trying to get an executive to do.
好的。就是说，如果你损伤了那些长程神经通路，前额叶皮层就不能有效地影响信息处理的竞争。这样一来，就会导致无关紧要的东西被记住，而重要的东西反而被忽视。我认为这就是关键所在。这也是为什么很多人把前额叶皮层称为"中央执行官"，就像许多工作过的人知道的那样，执行官有时候没什么用。
I mean, except for some who are useful, but then they don't really run companies very well. There's some CEOs that are doing spectacular things, but yeah. Well, okay. We won't go there. Controversial, shall we say. But anyway, so like a good executive, their job isn't to micromanage. Their job is to say, here's the big picture. Here's my vision for the company. And I want everyone to be working towards this goal, not, you know, sifting through the mail room, not paying the bills. Right.
我的意思是，除了那些有用的之外，还有一些人并不擅长经营公司。当然，也有一些CEO在做出色的事情，不过这些话题有点争议，我们就不深入讨论了。总之，一个好的高管不应该事无巨细地进行管理，他们的任务是制定蓝图，描绘公司愿景，并让所有人朝这个目标努力，而不是处理邮政工作或者支付账单。
And so what happens is, is that when you have certain kinds of things that happen with aging, like damage to the white matter that happens through essentially tiny cerebrovascular events, most likely. We've done some research on this in our lab in collaboration with Bill Jegis, who's now in Berkeley and Charlie to Carly. And you can measure this in MRIs with a measure called white matter hyperintensities. You use a scan that shows up little bright spots where the white matter is probably damaged. And what you find is that these people with white matter hyperintensities actually have memory performance that's as poor as people who have hippocampal atrophy, probably in the release stages of Alzheimer's.
当随着年龄增长出现某些情况时，比如白质损伤，这通常可能是由轻微的脑血管事件引起的。我们在实验室中与比尔·杰吉斯（现今在伯克利）和查理·德卡利合作进行了一些研究。你可以通过一种称为白质高信号的量度在MRI中检测到这种情况。这种扫描能显示白质可能受损的小亮点。研究发现，这些拥有白质高信号的人，他们的记忆表现实际上与有海马萎缩的人一样差，可能是在阿尔茨海默病的早期阶段。
And they're also bad at controlling information when they don't have to remember something. So it's like a double whammy. And it's kind of like the executive is trapped in a remote place and they got no internet access and no phone. And so they can't communicate with the company as everybody's just doing their own thing. Right. And that's a little bit of what can happen with aging. It doesn't have to, but that can happen. And you see this to a really great extent in many disorders. This is why so many disorders really affect control and frontal function, multiple sclerosis, diabetes, many kinds of things we talked about brain fog and many kinds of inflammatory conditions will affect it. And depression, clinical depression, I've seen people, older adults with depression, who are cognitively more impaired than people in the MCI stage of Alzheimer's. Really? Yes.
他们在无需记住事情时，对信息的控制也很差。这就像双重打击。有点像是一个领导被困在一个偏远的地方，无法上网或打电话，因此无法与公司沟通，而公司里的每个人都各自为政。这就有点像是衰老带来的影响。虽然不一定会发生，但确实可能发生。你会在许多疾病中看到这种情况，比如多发性硬化症、糖尿病，以及我们讨论过的脑雾和许多炎症性疾病都会影响它。此外，抑郁症，尤其是临床抑郁症，我见过一些有抑郁症的老年人，他们的认知功能受损比阿尔茨海默病轻度认知障碍（MCI）阶段的人更严重。真的吗？是的。
So depression is dangerous for memory. It's terrible for memory. And it seems to be a risk factor for Alzheimer's as well. Do you think that depression is dangerous for memory and a risk factor for Alzheimer's because it is my definition, anti-curiosity? I would probably not say that. And I would say also, I don't know what, I mean, you know, once you kind of get into these things in the epidemiological world, everything interacts with each other. And there's genetics and there's environment and blah, blah, blah. Depression means poor sleep, which means poor learning, which means it's a big part of it. You know, I think that's a big part, but you do. Okay, so let's go back to your question because I do think curiosity is affected by depression. I don't know the research on this, but I would be shocked if it isn't. And I do think that dopamine activity is disrupted in depression.
因此，抑郁症对记忆力是有害的。它对记忆力的影响很严重，而且似乎也是阿尔茨海默症的一个风险因素。你认为抑郁症对记忆力有害以及是阿尔茨海默症的风险因素，是因为它本质上是“反好奇心”吗？我可能不会这样说。我认为，一旦你进入流行病学的领域，会发现所有因素都相互影响，包括遗传、环境等等。抑郁症导致睡眠差，这又影响学习能力，这是其中很重要的一个因素。不过，我确实认为好奇心会受到抑郁症的影响。我不清楚相关研究，但我会感到惊讶如果事实并非如此。我也认为抑郁症会导致多巴胺活动被干扰。
And your motivation to get, and Hidonia is the home, one of the hallmark symptoms of depression. As is rumination, by the way, which is memory retrieval, a preferential negative retrieval of negative events and cogitating over them. I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function. I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
翻译成中文：
"你的动力来源，以及快乐缺失是抑郁症的显著症状之一。顺便提一下，反刍思维也是如此，它是一种对负面事件的记忆提取和不断思考这些事件。我想简单休息一下，感谢我们的赞助商之一，Function。在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了Function的会员。虽然我一直很喜欢血液测试，但我真正想找的是一个更深入的项目，能够分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康、激素状态、免疫系统调节、新陈代谢功能、维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。"
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from talk doctors on your results. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had two high levels of mercury in my blood. This was totally surprising to me. I had no idea prior to taking the test. Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels. Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
Function不仅提供对100多种与身体和心理健康相关的生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果，并提供医生的见解。例如，在我第一次使用Function进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高，这令我非常惊讶。之前我完全不知道这一点。Function不仅帮助我检测到这个问题，还提供了有执照医生的建议，教我如何最好地降低汞水平。这些建议包括限制我一直大量食用的金枪鱼，同时多吃绿叶蔬菜，并补充NAC和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两种物质能促进谷胱甘肽的生成和解毒，从而帮助我降低汞水平。像这样的全面实验室检测对健康至关重要，尽管我已经坚持做了多年，但我一直觉得这过程过于复杂而且费用昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman lab listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to Function.
我对Function留下了深刻印象，不仅因为其测试的易用性，更因为其测试的全面性和可操作性。因此，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，并很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。如果你想尝试Function，可以访问functionhealth.com/huberman。目前Function有超过25万人在等待名单上，但他们为Huberman实验室的听众提供提前访问的机会。再次提醒，访问functionhealth.com/huberman即可提前使用Function。
You probably think a fair amount about age-related cognitive decline and Alzheimer's, and I'm just curious, at a personal level, what are the sorts of things that you do to try and offset cognitive decline? You seem to be a very vivacious and curious person. I've known you a long time, and I don't know whether or not you're caffeinated every time we met, but you have a lot of energy. You're a very curious person. You just wrote a book. We'll talk more about. You're going on podcasts. You're doing a lot of things besides running a world-class research laboratory.
您可能经常思考与年龄相关的认知衰退和阿尔茨海默症的问题，我很好奇，从个人角度来看，您采取了哪些措施来抵抗认知衰退呢？您看起来充满活力和好奇心。我认识您很长时间了，不知道我们每次见面时您是否都喝了咖啡，但您总是精力充沛。您是个非常有好奇心的人，刚刚写了一本书。我们稍后会详细讨论这个话题。您上播客，除了管理一个世界一流的研究实验室之外，还在做很多事情。
Clearly, a lot of curiosity. What did the data say about ways to maintain or enhance one's memory capacity? With the understanding that curiosity is probably involved, as we talked about earlier, but at a really basic level, I mean, a number of things leap to mind, but I'm just curious what you're, if you had to pick like, three to five things that are clearly substantiated in the data as supporting the maintenance or enhancement of memory as we get older, what are those?
显然，人们对这个问题非常好奇。关于如何保持或增强记忆力，数据显示了哪些方法呢？我们之前提到，好奇心可能与此有关，但在基本层面上，有很多事情可以想到。不过，我好奇的是，如果让你选择三到五个在数据上明确支持保持或增强记忆力的因素，它们会是什么呢？
I mean, as a memory researcher, I almost find it myself, like, ashamed when I talk about these things, because, as you know, so many of the most important factors are ones that are related to just health. So, for instance, you mentioned sleep. That's a big one. We can, actually, there's a beautiful study that speaks to this that was done 29,000 subjects in China, and they followed them up for 10 years. Now, at the beginning of this, so they divided people into three groups.
作为一名记忆研究员，当我谈到这些事情时，我几乎感到有些惭愧，因为，如你所知，很多最重要的因素实际上都与健康有关。比如你提到的睡眠，这就是一个大因素。实际上，有一个非常出色的研究对此进行了探讨，这项研究在中国进行了，有29000名参与者，并跟踪了他们10年。在研究开始时，他们把人们分成了三组。
They said, okay, here's, well, what they said is there's six lifestyle factors that we're going to investigate. One was, I think, engagement and cognitive activities. I think one was social engagement. One was physical exercise, not smoking, I think, no alcohol, but they identified these lifestyle factors that were basically just kind of good lifestyle factors. So, they get people who have four to six of these lifestyle factors going versus zero to one of these lifestyle factors.
他们说，好吧，他们要研究六个生活方式因素。其中一个，我想，是参与和认知活动。另一个是社交活动。还有一个是体育锻炼，我想，还有不吸烟和不喝酒。他们确定了这些基本上是良好的生活方式因素。所以，他们将拥有四到六个这些生活方式因素的人与只有零到一个生活方式因素的人进行比较。
We'll just take the extreme. When they start, they're all the same. 10 years later, the people with four to six lifestyle factors going for them are performing almost twice as high on memory tests as the people with zero to one lifestyle. Wow. So, these are people exercising, paying attention to their sleep, social engagement. What are some of the other, I'm guessing, low inflammatory diet?
我们就来看一个极端情况。一开始，所有人都是一样的。十年后，拥有四到六个良好生活习惯的人在记忆测试中的表现几乎是那些只有零到一个良好习惯的人的两倍。哇。这些良好习惯包括锻炼、关注睡眠和社交互动。那么其他可能的习惯是什么呢？我猜是低炎症饮食？
Yeah, definitely not smoking. And smoking and alcohol, I think, were big ones. The smoking one is interesting because we know smoking can cause cancer, and cardiovascular risk is real there, although there are some data, as I understand, that nicotine itself, not smoking, vaping, dipping, or snuffing, but that nicotine can be pro cognition and maybe even pro memory. And nowadays, people are using nicotine more and more. I'm not a big proponent of this because of the blood pressure increase and the typical routes of administration are dangerous, but nicotine, I've been told, is protective for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.
是的，绝对不吸烟。我认为吸烟和饮酒是两个很重要的问题。关于吸烟这一点比较有趣，因为我们知道吸烟会导致癌症，并且增加心血管疾病风险，虽然据我所知，有一些数据显示尼古丁本身——不是通过吸烟、电子烟、咀嚼或者鼻烟摄取——可能对认知和记忆有促进作用。如今，越来越多的人在使用尼古丁。我并不大力支持这种做法，因为它会导致血压升高，而通常的摄取方式也很危险。不过，有人告诉我，尼古丁对帕金森和阿尔茨海默症有保护作用。
Is that true? Well, by the way, I just have to say I forgot healthy diet. Healthy diet was a big one too. Which I define as people wonder what is that? And there are all these online debates about vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, but I think most people in the world are omnivores. Most, and I think it's very clear that the number one thing for healthy diet is to try and get most of one's food from non-processed or minimally processed sources. That sort of sets you in the right direction.
真的吗？顺便说一下，我忘了说健康饮食。健康饮食也是一个重要方面。有人会问这是什么意思？网上有很多关于素食主义、纯素食主义和肉食主义的辩论，但我认为世界上大多数人都是杂食者。而且，很明显，健康饮食的首要原则是尽量从未加工或少加工的食物中获取营养。这会引导你朝着正确的方向前进。
Yeah, so I was actually emailing with Dean and Aisha Tsai who really talk a lot about this. Yeah, they do great work. And so they were actually sending me some stuff and I had known about some of this, but like, Mediterranean diet has worked really well. Olive oil, fruits, vegetables, fish, eggs, limited amounts of meat, although I happen, I'm half Argentine. Yeah, you like your steaks. I do.
好的，我之前在和Dean以及Aisha Tsai交流邮件，他们对此有很多讨论。他们做的工作非常出色。他们给我分享了一些信息，我对其中一些有了解，比如地中海饮食效果很好。主要是橄榄油、水果、蔬菜、鱼类、鸡蛋，还有少量的肉。不过，我有一半阿根廷血统，确实很喜欢吃牛排。
Which I think, you know, let me come back to this point because I think it's super important, but leafy greens were a big one. They pointed out a rush Presbyterian study that I didn't know about that put people on, I think it was called the Dash diet. And it included leafy greens as a big part of it, and that had a dramatic increase in cognitive, I mean, dramatically preserved cognitive performance in people who were on that diet. So the healthy diet is a big part. Now, nicotine is interesting.
我觉得，这个观点非常重要，我想再回到这个话题。绿叶蔬菜是很重要的一部分。他们提到了一个我之前不知道的拉什长老会医院的研究，这个研究让参与者遵循一种名为DASH饮食的饮食方案，其中包括大量的绿叶蔬菜。这个饮食对人的认知能力有显著的保护作用，也就是说，那些遵循这种饮食的人认知表现得到了显著的提升。所以，健康的饮食是非常重要的一个因素。至于尼古丁，这也是个有趣的话题。
So if you notice a lot of people, schizophrenia is smoke. And one of the things that's been found is that nicotine does seem to improve functioning in people, cognitive functioning in people with schizophrenia. Now, I think the big thing to remember about any kind of drug, and this goes for food effects probably too, but especially drugs, is there's huge individual differences, huge. And so, I mean, just to give you an example, I could not function without that coffee that I had this morning and then coming in here. But my daughter would not be functional after those guts of coffee. Some people really are affected by these different things differently. And then of course, there's always a dose response curve. And they often follow these inverted use, so Mark Desposito, who was my postdoc mentor, did a lot of work with dopaminergic drugs. And a lot of people had done these drug studies early on on cognition, they would find no effects or sometimes they'd make people worse. And what he found was that if you looked more carefully, there is an inverted U effect, where some people, and it depended on their working memory capacity, were actually benefiting from the drug. And then these other people who were, let's say, I can't remember as high or lower, were doing worse. And there's a genetic component to that, unsurprisingly. And so now you start to get into all of these gene environment, drug interactions that are just, I would really caution people against saying nicotine is good, nicotine is bad. I think it really is a much more complex issue, just like marijuana, right?
所以，如果你注意到很多人，精神分裂症患者常常吸烟。研究发现，尼古丁似乎可以改善精神分裂症患者的认知功能。现在，我认为关于任何药物，可能包括食物效应的一个重要记忆点是，个人差异非常大，非常大。例如，我在早上喝咖啡后才能正常行动，但我女儿喝了同样的咖啡却不行。不同的人对各种物质的反应也各不相同。而且，药物常常有一个剂量反应曲线。我过去的博士后导师Mark Desposito做了很多关于多巴胺药物的研究，早期很多关于认知的药物研究发现没有效果或有时甚至让人变得更糟。他发现如果更仔细地观察，这些药物竟然有一个反转的U型效应：其中一些人根据他们的工作记忆容量获得了药物的好处，而另一些人则表现更差。这其中也有遗传因素的影响。这是为什么我建议大家不要简单地说尼古丁好或不好。这是一个更复杂的问题，就像对待大麻一样。
So you can look at smoking weed in adolescents for people who are at high genetic risk for psychosis. It dramatically increases your risk for psychosis. That's my understanding, too. Although the times I've said that on the internet, I caught a lot of pushback from some of the cannabis researchers. But then having invited one of them on this podcast, I then got subsequent input from other researchers, which counter their narrative, which we can both say because we're both research scientists. That's what you call a field. Sorry, baby, cut out any misinformation, I might have said. No, no, no, you didn't. I think the point is just that it's very clear that there are certain individuals for whom high THC consumption can trigger psychotic episodes. Yeah, and we're seeing this with not everyone. Yeah, I mean, we're now interestingly seeing this with psychedelics where it's like all these positive effects of psychedelics are being brought up. But a lot of people remember the negative effects of people like Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators or like Sid Barrett from Pain Floyd, who became psychotic after Jim. And that's what I mean by psychotic after doing large amounts of LSD. What was the first example? Rocky Erickson from the 13th Floor Elevators. Great psychedelic band. Oh, psychedelic. Okay, we'll talk more about Charne as a himself, a rock and roll musician and loves rock and roll. Hence the reference to Rick Rubin earlier. And there's a photo of Rick here in the studio that our photographer Mike Playback took. So we were looking at that together. So, yes, psychedelics have claimed the minds of certain people, made them help contribute to their pre-existing, presumably psychosis. I should also say, in fairness to the other compounds out there, methamphetamine have also significantly contributed to the progression of psychosis in many people. So it's not just psychedelics. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
你可以看看在青少年中吸食大麻对那些具有高遗传性精神病风险的人群的影响。它显著增加了患精神病的风险。这也是我的理解。虽然我在互联网上说过这个观点时，遇到了许多来自一些大麻研究人员的反对。但当我邀请其中一位参加我的播客后，收到了一些其他研究人员的意见，他们的观点与之前的叙述相反。由于我们都是研究科学家，我们可以公开讨论这个领域的不同看法。抱歉，如果我说了任何错误信息，请删掉。哦，不，你没有。我认为重点在于，显然对某些人来说，过量摄入高含量THC的大麻会引发精神病发作。是的，我们看到这不是发生在所有人身上。现在有趣的是，我们也在迷幻药中看到类似的情况，虽然迷幻药的许多积极效果被广泛提及，但很多人也记得一些负面影响，比如13th Floor Elevators乐队的Rocky Erickson或Pink Floyd的Sid Barrett，他们在大量使用LSD后出现了精神病。我指的就是使用大量LSD后出现精神病。第一个例子是什么？Rocky Erickson，13th Floor Elevators乐队的。一个很棒的迷幻乐队。哦，迷幻音乐。好的，我们会更多地讨论Charne，他自己是一位摇滚音乐家，热爱摇滚。因此，这也是之前提到Rick Rubin的原因之一。我们的摄影师Mike Playback在工作室拍了Rick的照片，所以我们一起看了那个。是的，迷幻药确实影响了一些人的精神状态，可能帮助激发了他们潜在的精神病。公平起见，我还要说，甲基苯丙胺对许多人精神病的进展也有很大的影响。所以不仅仅是迷幻药会导致这种情况。是的，是的。
And then of course, there are those who have somehow managed to take psychedelics and become more sane. Yeah, I saw some of them. Or at least remain at least as sane as they were before. Yeah, and of course, sanity is in the eye of the beholder too. But what I'll say is that, yeah, and you can see this actually, there's some new concern about atorol and stimulants. And if you're giving it to people who might be at high risk for schizophrenia, it might also promote psychosis. That makes sense. Given the noratrenergic dopaminergic involvement in schizophrenia and those drugs are pro-noratrenergic dopaminergic in general. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's really a much more complicated interaction. And I think this is where this whole realm of personalized medicine will be super helpful. But there does seem to be a broad general effect for certain dietary interventions. Barry seemed to be good. Leafy greens seemed to be so easy. So eat healthy. We talked about the exercise. Yeah, yeah.
当然，也有一些人，竟然通过服用迷幻药变得更理智了。我确实见过一些这样的人。或者至少，他们的理智状态没有比之前差。当然，理智是个主观的概念。不过我想说的是，最近有些对药物和兴奋剂的新担忧。如果将这些药物提供给可能有精神分裂症高风险的人，可能会促进精神病发作。这是有道理的，因为精神分裂症涉及去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺系统，而这些药物通常具有促进去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺的作用。没错，确实如此。所以情况其实更为复杂。我认为个性化医疗在这方面将非常有帮助。不过，某些饮食干预似乎有较广泛的普遍效果。像浆果和绿叶蔬菜就很有益。所以要健康饮食。我们还谈到了锻炼。是的，没错。
And my understanding, I've been looking at this in detail lately, but I'd love your thoughts, is that while everybody, we now believe men, women, et cetera, should do both cardiovascular exercise. So to speak, elevate heart rate for 12 to 60 minutes kind of thing, depending on the intensity, as well as resistance training to maintain neuromuscular function, offset sarcopenia, et cetera. To me, the really impressive effects of exercise on learning capacity and the brain, in terms of brain health, seem to come from cardiovascular exercise. And that could just be because that's what's been emphasized in the studies. But even when one looks at something, it compares the best human studies. It really does seem like getting blood flow up to the brain, getting a nice release of neuromodulators into the brain facilitates learning.
根据我的理解，最近我对这个问题进行了详细研究，但我很想听听你的看法。目前我们认为，无论男女都应该进行有氧运动，也就是说，根据强度不同，让心率提高12到60分钟，以及进行阻力训练以维持神经肌肉功能，抵消肌肉衰减等。在我看来，运动对学习能力和大脑健康的显著影响似乎主要来自有氧运动。这可能只是因为研究中更加强调有氧运动。但即使当我们观察一些最优秀的人体研究时，似乎也证明了提高大脑供血和释放神经调节物质有助于学习。
And then of course, people have to do something with that learning. Right, so do you make an effort to exercise for the specific purpose of maintaining or enhancing brain function? Yes, yeah. Actually, so I, like when I finished my book, I limped to the finish line. I had all sorts of crazy stuff happen. I won't depress the readers with all the crazy stuff that happened. I'm sure people will be curious, what does it take to finish a book and how much? You mean you took a toll on your body? It took probably, I mean, I would probably have lost some biological years in that, but it was really, like, I mean, it was great. I mean, it was really an emotional roller coaster, though, but then I had a bunch of, you know, I'm trying to do science.
然后，当然，人们需要把学到的东西付诸实践。那么，你是否有意识地为了维持或提高大脑功能而锻炼呢？是的，有的。实际上，就像我完成我的书的时候，我是勉强撑到最后的。在这过程中发生了各种疯狂的事情，我不想让读者感到沮丧，所以就不说了。我相信大家会好奇，完成一本书需要付出多少努力？你的意思是，这个过程对你的身体造成了影响？可以这么说，可能损失了一些生理上的年限，但这真的是一段很棒的经历，尽管情绪上像坐过山车一样波动。然后我还需要投入到科学研究中。
Write this book basically in my spare time, which doesn't really exist as you know how it goes. Sure. And then I had life happen. You know, my mom was in the hospital, my cat died on my birthday. I mean, it was just like, yes, see, I didn't want to impress people with all this stuff. Real life, I'm just sorry to hear it. Yeah, no, no, no, it's okay. So then I finished my book and I was like, just thoroughly thrashed. And I had a sabbatical because I wanted to have time to promote the book and educate people about what's in the book. And which I'd never gotten a chance to do before. It's like doing this. Fantastic. Right? I get to talk to people.
我基本上是在空闲时间写这本书，但实际上这种时间几乎不存在，你也知道的，生活总是这样。而且，我还经历了很多事情。比如，我妈妈住院了，我的猫在我生日那天去世了。就是这种感觉，我并不想用这些事情来博取别人的好感。生活嘛，我只能说对不起听到这些事情。没事，真的没事。所以，我完成了我的书，当时感觉精疲力竭。我休了一个假期，因为我希望有时间推广这本书，向人们介绍书中的内容，而这还是我以前从未有机会做的。这种感觉太好了，对吧？我可以和大家交流。
So I really wanted to make some changes. And actually, this gets something we were talking about before we started recording, which is after I wrote the book, it's all, you know, it's going in the proofing stage. I was talking to my daughter and just, you know, out of the blue, she said, we're talking about ADHD. She's like, Dad, you totally have ADHD. And I'm like, what? You know, and I'm like, Gen Z, you know, overdiagnosis of ADHD, whatever. Right? And then I remembered when I was a kid, my school contacted my parents and said, you have ADHD? He has ADHD. And it was interesting because it was like, I actually was ahead in school by a year. And I got held back because I just was so socially bad. I couldn't stop talking in class. And I was just like really awkward and impulsive. And so, but, you know, it was the 70s. Nobody did anything. You know, and I had all sorts of behavior issues and so forth.
所以我真的很想做出一些改变。实际上，这也涉及我们在开始录音前讨论的一个话题，就是在我写完书并进入校对阶段后，我和女儿聊起了注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）。她突然间说：“爸爸，你肯定有ADHD。”我当时很惊讶，并想，哎呀，这就是Gen Z（Z世代），总是过度诊断ADHD。然后我想起小时候，学校联系了我的父母，说我有ADHD。这很有趣，因为我那时候在学校其实是超前一年学习的，但因为社交能力很差被留级了。我在课堂上总是喋喋不休，而且很笨拙和冲动。那是在70年代，那个时候没人对此做什么。我有各种行为问题等等。
And there are other factors going on too. But it really got me thinking, Oh my God, I got to make some changes. I'm living this unsustainable life where I'm jumping from crisis to crisis to crisis. And I say, I don't have time for a little. And so my again, it's going to sound depressing, but it's got a happier ending. So my dog had died in 2019 of cancer. And that was my first dog. And so I thought I'm never getting a dog again. And in 2020 and the pandemic, I got another dog. Good for you. Yeah. And she's both of these were shelter dogs. Great. So they're all mixes. I'm sure there's some pit bull in her because that's every shelter doggy there is pit bull or Chihuahua. Exactly. So, but she's looks very Belgian Malinois and she moves like a Belgian Malinois. Beautiful dogs. Yeah. And they're so smart and super athletic. I mean, she can like jump vertically, you know, just like it's so like it would all come home. She'll like jump up and then push herself off me, which is like a very classic thing. And so that's why they can jump like she can climb up like seven feet up a tree to chase a squirrel. Yeah, they use these for military operations and tier one military. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're trained to jump out of planes.
还有一些其他因素在起作用。但这真的让我思考，天啊，我必须做出一些改变。我过着一种无法持续的生活，不断从一个危机跳到另一个危机。我总是说，我没有时间去做些小事。虽然听起来有点沉重，但这个故事有一个更乐观的结尾。2019年，我的狗因为癌症去世了，那是我的第一只狗，当时我想我再也不会养狗了。但在2020年疫情期间，我又养了一只狗。好极了！而且这两只都是收容所的狗，很棒！都是混种狗。我敢肯定她有一些斗牛犬的基因，因为每只收容所的狗基本上都有斗牛犬或者吉娃娃的血统。没错。不过她看起来像比利时马利诺犬，动作也像比利时马利诺犬。真漂亮的狗！它们非常聪明，也很有运动天赋。我的狗能直接跳起来，回来时，她会跳起来然后用力推我，这是一种很典型的动作。她甚至能爬上七英尺高的树去追松鼠。它们常被用于军事行动和顶级军事任务。对，她们被训练成可以从飞机上跳下的。
Yeah. Parachutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's, but she's a smaller dog. So our big or older dog looked like kind of she wasn't. She was actually a kelpie mix, I think, but she looked like a. A rotweiler. And so everyone was scared of her. Even though she's the sweetest dog. This one, she's like smaller, even though she looks kind of a shepherd like everyone's like, Oh, your dog is so sweet. She's. You know, you're like, but this one's the ninja. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all shelter dogs have a little bit of a crazy switch and then don't. It's like it's it's tough for them. They're there. They're like feral people, feral dogs. Yeah. But they have big hearts. Yeah. They're eternally grateful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you know, one of the things that I was thinking is I missed walking the dog. I missed that activity. And so I make sure to do that every morning. And this is goes back to some of the activity things that we're talking about. I know I'm totally drifting away from you. No, no, I see where you're just ironic. I see where you're going with this. Yeah. So, but this is this is a little bit different, but it's related, which is having a sense of. Having a sense of purpose is very important for healthy brain aging. There's a trends of cognitive science article to send you. It's one of these things that neuroscientists don't talk about because it's not we don't understand it, but it's hugely important as part of this whole phenomenon, what they call cognitive reserve. And, you know, having this dog that I'm taking care of, especially because, you know, my kid gone to college, just grown up living independently. Walking this dog every day. It gives me obviously married and I love my family and I've got lots of my students and so forth. But it gave me more and I'm exercising in a way that's kind of fun. I'm listening to podcasts and I'm moving. And so that's something right there. It's not just the exercise, but it's the whole thing. Right?
翻译如下：
是的，降落伞。对，对，对。我们家有只小狗，她比我们的大狗要小一点。我们的大狗看起来像她不是那种类型，其实她是一只凯尔派混种狗，但她看起来像一只罗威纳犬，所以大家都怕她，尽管她是最温顺的狗。而这只小狗，虽然看起来有点像牧羊犬，但所有人都觉得她很可爱。你会想，这家伙才是真正的忍者。对，对，对。我觉得所有收容所的狗多少都有点疯狂的开关，但又没有。他们就像野生的人，野生的狗。然而，他们都有一颗宽大的心，永远心存感激。对，对，对，完全是这样。我还想着，我很怀念遛狗这个活动，所以我确保每天早上都带狗出去遛。虽然我偏离了原来的话题，但这也是我们讨论的活动的一部分。我理解你，我也看到了你的意思。是的，这是有点不同，但也是相关的，那就是拥有目标感对健康的大脑老化非常重要。有一篇认知科学趋势的文章值得分享。这是神经科学家不常谈论的东西，因为我们不了解，但它是这种现象的一部分，叫做认知储备。照顾这只狗让我尤其感受到，特别是因为我的孩子已经上大学，独立生活了。每天带狗散步，显然我有自己的家庭，爱我的家人，和我的学生们在一起，但这种活动给了我更多，并且以一种有趣的方式锻炼。我听着播客，运动着。这不仅仅是锻炼，而是整个体验。对吗？
I'm not doing something that I hate. So then I'm like, I hate running. I hate. I have this inertia because my ADHD brain doesn't like to do stuff unless it's shiny and fun, right? And I could go to work. I could write this book because it's fun for me, you know. But so I'm like, how can I do this? And so I ended up shelling out for a personal trainer. I blew my advance on a personal trainer. It was great. And I go to see her and she tells me what to do. So I have to think about it. And it's fun.
我不会去做我讨厌的事情。所以，我讨厌跑步。我感到有惯性，因为我的多动症大脑不喜欢做那些不是新鲜有趣的事情。我可以去工作，我可以写这本书，因为这对我来说是有趣的。但是，我就在想，我该怎么做到呢？于是我决定花钱请一个私人教练。我把预付款全花在了私人教练上。这很棒。我去找她，她告诉我该做什么，所以我不用去想，而且这很有趣。
You're in great shape. Oh, thank you. You're a few years older than I am and I haven't seen you in a while. And I always have this slight fear when I run into a colleague then after a while because there was this joke that we didn't tell professors until we became professors about the so-called tenured look. You see someone come in as a postdoc. You see them as a junior professor and then you see them after ten years. And ten years a big milestone. Right. Of course, it's academic freedom, et cetera.
你看起来状态很好。哦，谢谢。你比我年长几岁，我有一阵子没见到你了。我每次遇到很久没见的同事时，总是有点担心。因为有个笑话我们直到成为教授才告诉大家，就是所谓的“终身职称外貌”。你看到一个人作为博士后进来，然后成为年轻教授，再过十年后你又看到他们。十年是个很大的里程碑。当然，这意味着学术自由等等。
It's a wonderful milestone. It's a wonderful thing that we both have this. But you see some people who got tenure and just go, oh goodness, they look like they're age 25 years in five years. We also see this with former presidents, not all of them, but a lot of them. And so to run into you, I saw you on like Friedman's podcast, but then to see you, I'm like, trying to take in great care of himself. It makes me happy.
这是一个令人惊喜的里程碑。我们都有这样的成就，真是太好了。不过你也会看到有些人得到终身职位后，五年内好像一下子老了25岁。我们在一些前总统身上也能看到这种现象，尽管不是所有人都是这样。因此，偶然见到你，我在弗里德曼的播客上看到过你，然后再见到你，我看到你非常注意照顾自己，这让我感到很开心。
It's not a judgment. It makes me happy because I love my colleagues and I want to see them live a very long time because I don't subscribe to the idea that science progresses when I'm in the world. And I'm saying that science progresses one final time of my favorite scientist. Okay. Let's not attach that saying to me. I'm saying that there's certain scientists. I love my fellow scientists. I do too. If you're out there anywhere, don't you? There's certain scientists that you'd love to see live forever and you're one of them.
这不是一个评判。之所以我感到高兴，是因为我很爱我的同事们，我希望他们能活很长时间。因为我并不认同科学只有在我在世时才进步这个观点。我想说的是，科学会随着我喜欢的科学家的某个终点而进步。好吧，别把这句话和我联系在一起。我是说，有一些科学家，我很爱我身边的科学家们。如果你们在某个地方，你也会有这样的感觉。有一些科学家你希望他们能永远活下去，而你就是其中之一。
So you said, walk in the dog, which presumably gets you some sunlight. A lot of sunlight in Davis, even in the winter. It's bright up there. It gets you on a regular sleep rhythm. But you said this sense of purpose. And I'm curious about how you now frame exercise. You said you don't like working out. You made an investment in your health by paying a trainer. So now you train regularly.
你说，遛狗能够让你晒到阳光。即使在冬天，戴维斯也有很多阳光，那里的光线很充足。这有助于你保持规律的睡眠节奏。但是你提到了这种目的感。我很好奇你现在是如何看待锻炼的。你说你不喜欢锻炼，但你通过请一位教练来投资自己的健康。所以现在你定期进行训练。
And that's also an investment in your brain health. And if we were to go back to this notion of sense of purpose, are you talking about a larger sense of purpose? Okay. I want to contribute to understanding of how the brain works. You're a brain explorer, after all. And therefore the exercise and the money you put towards the trainer is linked to the ability to do that. Are you linking these nodes? Or are these kind of separate entities? Like, I want to be healthier. And here's a way to be healthier. And at Ergo, I'll be around longer to study the brain.
这也是对你大脑健康的一种投资。如果我们回到关于目标感的这个想法，你是在谈论一种更大的目标感吗？好的，我想贡献一份力量，帮助理解大脑如何运作。毕竟，你是一名大脑探险家。因此，你投入在锻炼和私人教练上的金钱和精力与实现这个目标的能力是相关的。你是否在连接这些点？还是说这些是独立的目标，例如，我想变得更健康，而锻炼是一种变得更健康的方法，并且因此我可以活得更久去研究大脑？
To me, and again, I'm not a social psychologist of this little bit off out of my wheelhouse. But to me, the sense of purpose is kind of this existential thing of like, you know, I got to take care of this dog. And I got to, you know, when I look at this dog and she's moping around in the corner, I feel bad. But I feel like it's my responsibility to do something with my students. With my students, I have, you know, I was very, very fortunate to have many people leave my lab after the pandemic, which destroyed so many careers.
对我来说，虽然我不是这一领域的社会心理学家，但我觉得责任感是一种关乎存在的事情。比如说，我得照顾这只狗。当我看到这只狗无精打采地待在角落时，我会觉得很难受。我觉得让我做些事情是我的责任。对于我的学生也是一样，疫情摧毁了许多人的职业生涯，而我很幸运地在疫情后有许多人从我的实验室走出，实现他们的目标。
And many people left my lab and I got faculty positions. I'm like so happy for them. But it also- But you're mentoring as well. Well, thank you. You know, you do well because you have good people in lab, as you know. That's true. And so, but what was interesting was I finished the book and my lab was relatively empty. And I did feel purposeless. I felt that absence of that sense of this bigger thing. And so part of the work is, you know, and this was like a thing that I felt doing the book promotion is, I feel a sense of purpose in explaining science to people. I got an email this morning as I was getting on the plane from, so he was asking me a question about memory.
许多人离开了我的实验室，并获得了教职。我为他们感到开心。但同时也是一种指导，是的，谢谢。你知道，你做得好是因为实验室里有优秀的人，这是事实。但有趣的是，当我完成这本书时，我的实验室相对空了。我确实感到有些失落，失去了那种更大使命感的一部分。所以，这项工作的意义在于，我在推广这本书时感受到了一种目的感，那就是向人们解释科学。今天早上我在上飞机时收到了一封电子邮件，有人问我一个关于记忆的问题。
And I was just like, this is so cool. You know, after you spend years lecturing students and some of them are sleeping in class. And you wonder is anybody really impacted by this? And it's just been a beautiful thing. So that gives me a sense of purpose. I've come up with- I've really rededicated myself to research, and we're doing these huge computational models of learning, and I'm trying to get- we're doing VR stuff, and we're going to be doing all sorts of new things in the research. And that gives me a sense of purpose.
我当时就想，这实在太棒了。你知道，当你多年来给学生讲课时，有些学生在课堂上睡觉，你会怀疑这些课是否真的影响到了他们。而现在，这一切变得如此美好，让我有了一种使命感。我重新投入到研究中，我们正在进行大型的学习计算模型，并尝试虚拟现实技术，计划在研究中开展各种新事物。这让我感到充满意义。
But a lot of it to me about the connection thing that you bring up is super important because often I find myself again because of the EEG thing. For all of these things that I like, there's things that you have to do that suck. And for me, that suckiness is utterly painful. I mean, and I know there's a lot of people like- I know ADHD is over-diagnosed right now for reasons that are interesting. And I know a lot of people, it's very kind of fashionable to say stuff, something like that. Maybe I don't know. People can be judgy about this stuff.
对我来说，你提到的关于连接的事情非常重要，因为我常常因为脑电图（EEG）的事情陷入困扰。对于我喜欢的这些东西，总有一些你必须去做的让人讨厌的事。而对我来说，这种讨厌简直让人难以忍受。我知道现在很多人被诊断出多动症（ADHD），这种现象被过度诊断的原因也很有趣。我也知道很多人很容易随口说出一些流行的话题，也许我不太了解，人们对此可以有各种看法。
But for me, it really is painful. I mean, I've actually found that it's hard for me to work with certain people if they talk slowly. It's that tough. So I've really had to think about- so I actually hooked up with an ADHD coach who has been phenomenal for me. And I know coaches are another controversial thing. I don't know. I'm not in my world. You want to learn something? You learn something from somebody who's skilled in how to improve somebody at something. Yeah, yeah.
但对我来说，这确实很痛苦。我是说，我发现和一些说话很慢的人一起工作对我来说真的很难。这实在是困难。所以我确实努力思考过这个问题，因此我联系了一位多动症教练，教练对我帮助很大。我知道教练也是一个有争议的话题。我不知道，我不在乎。你想学东西吗？就跟那些有技能帮助别人提升的人学习。对，就是这样。
Well, you know, I mean, I didn't know what to expect because it's like an unregulated world, so to speak, or minimally regulated. But the person I found was just amazing. And the first thing she had me do was she put down- had me write down a sheet of all my values and order them and rank them. And so I'm thinking this is such a waste of time. Sorry, Lori. But as they get initially, this is such a waste of time. Why am I doing this? I don't really value it. I don't know. I just do things. I don't necessarily value them or whatever. But then I started writing them down.
嗯，你知道，我的意思是，我不知道该有什么期望，因为这就像一个不受管制或几乎不受管制的世界。 但我遇到的那个人实在太棒了。 她让我做的第一件事是让我写下一张所有价值观的清单，并按顺序排列和排名。 起初，我觉得这真的是在浪费时间。 对不起，Lori。 但最开始的时候，我觉得这真是浪费时间。 我为什么要这样做？ 我并不真正看重这些。我不知道，我只是做事情。我并不一定会重视它们或者其他。但后来我开始写下来。
And then later I was talking to her about like this, you know, some of my troubles with motivation and getting things done that I don't want to do. And I'm kind of infamous for having trouble getting things done that I don't want to do in terms of like administrative tasks and so forth. You're a real scientist. I'm just like, ADHD. And he's just like that likes administrative stuff. I think I'm willing to call out as, you know, what are they doing in science? Because that's like you're supposed to be focusing on experiments. So Bravo. So, so values, then motivation.
后来我和她聊到了一些关于动力的问题，比如如何完成那些我不愿意做的事情。我对完成像行政任务这样的事情一直有些困难，这已经成了我的“名声”。你是个真正的科学家，而我就像是有点注意力缺失，特别是不喜欢行政类的事情。我敢于质疑他们在科学中所做的事情，因为你本应该专注于实验。值得称赞的是，你重视这些事情，然后才是动力。
Yeah. So basically it's like, so then I put the two together and I said, I'm not giving myself credit for why I'm doing this. So this goes back to the, I mean, in a way it goes back to the prefrontal cortex conversation is, what's my goal? If I'm going to see someone and have a meeting and I don't feel like going to the meeting because I'm tired and I'm bored or I want to just look at this YouTube video or go on social media or whatever dumb thing that I waste my time on. Right. I say to myself, well, why am I doing this? And I remind myself of that motivation.
好的，基本上就是这样，然后我把这两件事结合起来，我意识到我没有给自己做这件事的动力足够的肯定。这其实可以追溯到我们关于前额皮质的讨论，就是说，我的目标是什么？如果我要去见某人并开会，而我不想去参加，因为我很累、很无聊，或者我只是想看看这个YouTube视频或刷社交媒体，或者做其他浪费时间的蠢事。我会问自己，为什么我要做这件事？然后我提醒自己做这件事的动机。
And it kicks everything in gear because now I have that goal in place because the goal just doesn't pop up for me automatically. And so relating what I do to values is a game changer for me, but it's a conscious thing that I have to work on to remind myself of those values and connect them. And that's part of what I think people lose when they retire, for instance, I see this in people I'm close to who have retired. They feel like work is their only purpose. And so afterwards they feel purposeless and then they're just doing things like, you know, doom scrolling or, you know, being radicalized on the internet or like, you know, going into like, but it's just like whatever captures their attention.
这让我变得有动力，因为现在我有了明确的目标，而这个目标并不会自动出现。因此，将我所做的事情与个人价值观联系起来，对我来说是一个改变游戏规则的做法。但这是一个需要我有意识地努力去提醒自己，并将它们联系起来的过程。例如，我观察到，人们退休后常常会丧失这种意识。我看到身边退休的人觉得工作是他们唯一的目的，所以退休后他们感到无所适从，可能就会去做一些事情，比如无节制地刷屏、在网上被极端化，或者只是被一些能引起他们注意的事情所吸引。
And I think so a big part of that sense of purpose for me is really been to get in touch with what do I really want. And I mean, this goes back to another thing with memory. And I know this is a total ADHD pre association thing, but it's like, I can people often ask me, okay, fine, give me all the stuff for brain aging and we didn't even get into hearing aids and vision testing and oral hygiene and so forth. And we'll talk about those three things. But what I tell people is, I can tell you lots of strategies for remembering names, for remembering where you've been, for trying to remember, like, to do something in the future, some of the hardest memory challenges we have. But unless you do them, do those strategies, I can't help you.
我认为，对于我来说，这种使命感的一大部分确实是找到我真正想要的东西。这引出了另一个关于记忆的话题。我知道这有点像典型的多动症式的联想，但事情是这样的：人们经常问我，有关脑部老化的所有建议，甚至我们还没涉及到助听器、视力测试和口腔卫生等等。我们可以谈谈这三件事。但我告诉人们的是，我可以告诉你很多记住名字、记住去过哪里、记住未来要做某事的策略，这些都是我们面临的一些最难的记忆挑战。但如果你不去实践这些策略，我就无法帮助你。
And the problem is, is that, and this speaks to, I really liked what you said, we do have to talk about some exceptions like retrieval and do forgetting and some interesting things like the pre testing effect, but you're thing on study skills. I listened to the podcast and I was like, the beautiful thing that you did with that. One of them was that you said, assume that you will forget. Because if you go back to the earliest research on memory by Ebbinghaus, he tested himself and he actually created these weird words called trigrams that weren't really words. He tried to memorize them. And what he found was within 20 minutes, he had forgotten about half of what he memorized within, I don't mean just forgotten like he couldn't bring it to mind. It took him as long to re-memorize them as it was if he had never done it, right?
问题在于，就像你说的，我非常喜欢你提到的这一点，我们确实需要讨论一些例外情况，比如提取和遗忘的机制，以及一些有趣的现象，比如测试效应。但你谈到学习技巧这方面，我听了你的播客，我很欣赏其中的一个亮点，就是你说要假设自己会遗忘。因为如果回到艾宾浩斯关于记忆的早期研究，他对自己进行了测试，并创造了一些不是真正单词的奇怪词组叫三字母组。他尝试去记忆它们。结果发现，在20分钟内，他已经忘记了大约一半的记忆内容。我不是说他只是想不起来，而是说重新记忆这些词组所花的时间与他从未记忆过的情况是一样的，对吗？
So sometimes we have partial memory, we can't recall it, but we get some savings and it's easier for us to learn. He didn't even have that for a lot of the stuff. So then he waited 24 hours and he had lost two thirds of what he had memorized, right? So translate this into the real world. There are some things that are caveats that we do better in the real world, I would say, at the big things, the gist of what we encounter. But the details, we lose most of them. Most of the details of your life will be gone. And this is true for even, I would argue this is even true for people with highly superior autobiographical memory. I don't know for sure, but I can tell you more about that. This is true for everyone who's been studied as far as I know. And so if that's the case, the question is not like, why am I so forgetful? It's why do we remember the first one? It's why that title did for the book.
有时候我们只记得部分内容，无法回忆起全部，但这部分记忆会让学习变得更容易。他甚至在很多事情上连这种"便宜"都没有。因此，当他等待了24小时后，他已经遗忘了三分之二的记忆。把这种现象带到现实生活中，有一些事情我们做得更好，比如掌握事情的大体，然而，细节通常会被我们遗忘。大部分生活中的细节都会消失。甚至我认为，这对于那些具有高度优越自传记忆的人也是如此（虽然我不能确定，但可以告诉你更多）。据我所知，这对被研究的人来说都是普遍现象。所以如果是这样，问题就不在于"我为什么这么健忘"，而在于"我们为什么能记住些什么"，这也是为什么书名这么重要。
And the question is, what do you want to remember? What are the memories that you want to take with you? Whether it's memorizing things for a class like in study skills, or whether it's your kid's birthday party, which I talked about in chapter one. It's about intention is what I say. It's the difference between attention, which can be grabbed by anything, versus intention, which is saying, this is what I want to take with me, right? Let's hover on that.
问题是，你想记住什么？你想带走哪些记忆？无论是像在学习技巧课上那样记忆东西，还是像我在第一章提到的你孩子的生日派对，这都与意图有关。我说的意图是不同于注意力的，注意力可以被任何东西吸引，而意图是主动选择，我想要带走这些记忆。让我们来深入探讨一下这个问题。
Attention versus intention. We hear these words all the time. Attention is the directing of one's perception to particular sensations, or things in one environment. It's the way loosely defined, accurate, but not exhaustive. Intention is understanding why we're having a cognitive sense, maybe a cognitive emotional sense of why I am directing my perception to particular things. Is that right? Yes, it is directing your attention based on some reason that's an internal goal. And that's where the prefrontal cortex really comes in. So, it's very easy in some ways to pay attention to me if I'm like, just articulating and I'm talking very loudly, because it's grabbing your attention constantly.
注意力和意图。这两个词我们经常听到。注意力是指将一个人的感知集中在特定的感觉或环境中的事物上。这个定义比较宽泛，虽然准确，但也不全面。意图是理解为什么我们会有认知上的感受，可能是认知上的情感感受，为什么我会将感知集中在特定事物上。这正确吗？是的，意图是基于某种内部目标来引导你的注意力。而这正是大脑前额叶皮层起重要作用的地方。因此，如果我很清晰地表达且大声说话，就很容易吸引你的注意力，因为这会不断地抓住你的关注。
I know lots of people in my life who hate this because I'm so loud and just stick with the journal. Who are these people giving you this feedback? Send me their names and numbers. I have words for them. And listen, I would say, given you run a world-class laboratory, you're successful in your family life. You're successfully raising your second dog. You've written a spectacular book. You're going on podcast, you're educating the public. I would say you're doing great. So, keep going. And whoever these people are, we'll have words with them. I need like, Ubermen's words of encouragement on my phone that I could just open up.
我认识很多人在生活中不喜欢我这样，因为我太吵了，他们让我只专注于写日记。是谁给你这样的反馈？把他们的名字和联系方式发给我。我有话要对他们说。听我说，我觉得你既然经营着一个世界级的实验室，在家庭生活中也很成功，还成功地养了第二只狗。而且你写了一本出色的书，参加播客节目，向公众传递知识。我觉得你做得很棒。所以，继续努力。谁要是批评你，我们会和他们谈谈。我需要像Ubermen那样的鼓励话语，随时可以在手机上打开来看。
Well, I don't want to take us off track, but I spend a lot of time each morning. I first do a non-sleep-deep breast or some sort of meditation. Rick Rubin taught me this to get into intention. And there are other people who have come into my life recently. This notion of intention, the reason I said let's hover on it, is so important. Because we are in a world where things will grab our attention, especially on social media. It's basically a war for attention. I don't think it's an attention economy anymore. Or besides, I'm not trying to take anything away from that. But it's a war for attention. And one of the ways that you rob your competitors is by taking their attention. I used to joke when I was in a very competitive area as a postdoc. I was competing against a big lab at Harvard and this and that. We were trying to find genetic markers for retinal neurons, etc. And I said, if I could just get them excited about the wire. Remember that show the wire? Because it'll suck like 15 hours of those postdocs time. So I thought it'd be really diabolical. I didn't do it. But telling people, you have to see the wire.
好的，我不想偏离主题，但我每天早上花很多时间。首先，我会进行一种非睡眠的深度呼吸或某种冥想。这是Rick Rubin教我的，以便进入一种有意图的状态。最近还有其他人进入了我的生活。这种有意图的概念非常重要，因为我们生活在一个事物会抓住我们注意力的世界里，特别是在社交媒体上。这基本上是一场注意力之战。我不再认为这是一个注意力经济，或者说，我并不是要否定这个观点，但的确是一场注意力之战。抢夺竞争对手的注意力是其中一种策略。我过去在做博士后时常开玩笑，那时我在一个竞争激烈的领域，与哈佛的大实验室等竞争。我们在寻找视网膜神经元的遗传标记。我曾说，如果我能让他们对《火线重案组》这部剧感兴趣就好了。记得那部剧《火线重案组》吗？因为这样能占用那些博士后15个小时的时间。我觉得这真的很阴险，不过我没去这么做。但是我告诉别人，必须去看《火线重案组》。
Because you get someone on a really good Netflix program. And if they're a competitor, you just got a competitive advantage. It's being done all day long. In any case, attention is our ability for our perception to be drawn to whatever is most, moving most, loudest, most salient. Intention is different. Yeah. And this is by the way, this isn't a technical term. This is just, I like it as it rhymes. Then a friend might came up with it. So, but yes, intention is your ability to say, this is what's important to me right now. And that's why I need to pay attention to it. Hence the values list. Hence the values list. Because if I don't keep that in mind, so we tend to think of control as being just willpower or like, you want to do the right thing or whatever. It's not. It's really a big part. There's so many parts of it really, but a big part of it is motivation. And motivation is not a trivial thing. It's not simply wanting to do the right thing, but being able to keep that value in mind and retrieve that value. Because everything has a value associated with. And sometimes things that are, you know, thirsty and there's water in front of me, that has a big value and that should grab my attention. So it's not that having your attention shift, you want it to be flexible, but you want to keep these higher goals in mind. And so it's this balance between stability and flexibility.
因为你让某人沉迷于一部非常棒的Netflix节目。如果他们是竞争者，你就获得了一种竞争优势。这种策略被不断地使用。无论如何，注意力是我们将感知力集中在最有活力、声音最大、最引人注目的事物上的能力。而意图则不同。这不是个技术术语，我喜欢它是因为它押韵，是一个朋友想到的。意图是你能够说出：现在什么对我重要，因此我需要集中注意力于此。这也正是价值观列表的作用。如果我不记住这些，我们往往认为控制力仅仅是意志力或者做好事的欲望。其实不然。控制力有很多因素，重要的一点是动机。动机并不仅仅是想要做好事那么简单，而是能够牢记那个价值观并付诸实践。因为每件事都有其相关的价值。有时候，比如说我渴了，面前有水，这就是一个很重要的价值，应该抓住我的注意力。所以，注意力的转移并不是不好的，你需要它的灵活性，但同时也要保持更高目标在心中。因此，这就是在稳定性和灵活性之间的平衡。
Now the key is, or the guilt gets to your specific example of like technology, right? So ever since I got a phone, that is a smartphone, my first iPhone, which was that mine was 2010 mine was, well, you did better than me. Maybe it was around the same as iPhone three, I think was my first. Okay. I don't want to look up. I think I had the iPhone three, which was whenever that came out. So until then, I would check email when I was at a computer when I'm on, I don't think about it. Now it's always there. And you know, and you get alerts on your phone, right? So let's play this out now. We're having this great conversation. Let's say we leave, we talk about skateboarding and punk rock and like, yes, why didn't we talk about this on the podcast? We're having a great conversation, right? But now let's say I didn't put my phone on focus mode and I start getting all these little beeps on my phone. I know people I know might played with and a band with somebody who had ADHD and he would constantly, anytime we were in a conversation, he would just check his text messages. Sometimes you're text in front of me, right?
现在关键是技术的问题，或者说是愧疚感，就像你说的，比如说科技方面的事情。打我有了手机，智能手机，我的第一部iPhone开始，我的是2010年，大概是iPhone 3，我记得是我的第一部iPhone。那时候，我只会在电脑前查看电子邮件，当时我并不时刻想着这些。可是现在，手机总是在身边，随时会有提醒声。就拿我们现在这段对话来说，我们有一个很好的交谈，比如说我们聊滑板和朋克摇滚，然后会想，为什么不在播客里聊这些？我们聊得很开心，对吧？但假如我没有把手机设置为专注模式，就会开始收到各种提示音。我认识一个人，他有多动症，我们聊着天呢，他常常会查看短信，有时甚至会当面发短信。
So what happens is every time you do that, you're essentially shifting your task, your mindset changes, your intention is somewhat changed by this new task, right? So now I've shifted and there's a cost associated with that. In fact, actually people who study this, there's like four or five different costs that go on. It makes you slower to do the new thing, right? Now I go back to the conversation. Well, now I have another cost associated with that. And so I'm not there where you are in this moment. I'm several seconds behind you and I'm still catching up while you're talking and that requires even more control to get caught up and get back up to speed. So I'm straining my mental resources. I'm straining my cognitive control by shifting back and forth.
所以，每次你这样做的时候，其实就是在转换任务，你的思维方式会随之改变，你的意图也会因为这个新任务而有所改变，对吧？所以我现在切换了，伴随而来的是一种“成本”。事实上，研究这个问题的人指出，实际上有四到五种不同的“成本”存在。这会让你在做新事情的时候变得更慢，对吧？然后我再回到之前的对话中。好，这又会产生另一个“成本”。所以，我在这一刻并没有跟上你的节奏，我比你慢了几秒钟，正在努力赶上你的谈话进度，而且这需要更多的努力来对齐并恢复速度。所以，通过来回切换任务，我正在消耗我的心理资源和认知控制能力。
But here's an even worse part of it. So a memory, we haven't even talked about this, but it's like a lot of our forgetting happens because we have these blurry memories. They're not distinctive. They don't get a population of neurons that shouts out loud. Hey, that's this conversation I had with Andy, right? It's like it's just kind of this blurry sense of I talk to someone on a podcast. I'm not saying that this will happen now because it won't. So I have this blurry memory. Well, why does that happen? Well, part of it is you have to catch the distinctive moments of these events and you have to associate them together into this cohesive narrative. One of the things we found in our research and other people have found this is when, let's say if you're watching a movie and somebody changes the topic of conversation. Or a character comes in something that shifts your attentional focus and shifts your understanding what's going on. You see this big peak in activation in the hippocampus. And what that seems to be related to is encoding a memory for what happened up to that point. And so we call that an event boundary. And so once you have an event boundary, it turns out you like you go on to the next event and you have trouble remembering the stuff that happened right before the event boundary. It's why people end up in the kitchen and they're like, what was my reason for coming here? And it's because they passed through three different rooms and their sense of where they were was changing their mental context updated at the point where now they have to work to figure it out. So this is what's happening when we are shifting between different tasks. I'm texting and I'm emailing and then I'm talking to you. Or as you've probably seen in going to conferences, people, scientists, scientists who know better are sitting typing emails while someone is giving. I've done this because I'm intentionally impaired. Or I'm actually ADHD is a cognitive control issue, I think. But nonetheless, it's like I do this, right?
这段文字讨论了一种关于记忆的现象。我们常常会忘记事情，因为我们的许多记忆是模糊不清的，不够鲜明。例如，我们可能只记得自己在某个播客里与某人交谈过，但具体内容不太清楚。这种模糊记忆发生的一个原因是，我们没有将事件中的特殊时刻结合成一个连贯的叙述。
研究发现，当我们看电影时，如果有人换了话题或有新的角色出现，这会令我们的注意力和对当前情境的理解发生转变，我们会在大脑的海马体中看到一个激活的高峰。这种现象与记忆编码有关，称为“事件边界”。当一个事件结束并进入下一个事件时，我们常常难以记住事件边界之前发生的事情。这就是为什么我们走进厨房后常常想不起来自己来这里的原因，因为我们经过了几个房间，改变了心理上下文，需要重新思考自己要做什么。
这种事情也发生在我们切换不同任务时，比如一边发短信、一边写邮件、然后又和人说话。即使是在会议上，很多科学家在人发表演讲时也会忍不住在打字写邮件。我自己也这样做过，尽管我知道这样是不对的。实际上，我认为这与注意力不足或多动症（ADHD）有关，这是一个认知控制的问题，但无论如何，我会这样做。
So it's like, I get it, but it's like you are now creating this fragments of memories where it's not. I have a cohesive conversation. I have a little bit. I got a little bit more. I got a little bit more. And those fragments of memory don't play together well in memory. They can compete with each other. And that competition is a big part of forgetting. And so that's why it's super important to just do one thing and then do another. If you want to do social media, fine, do it. Then do whatever it is you are supposed to do for work, right? But it's the shifting that really kills you because it creates, saps your cognitive control. It actually creates these fragmented memories. It also actually increases stress levels. So there's all sorts of things.
所以，我明白你的意思，但这样你会制造一些支离破碎的记忆，而不是完整的对话。我得到了一点，又得到了一点，记忆片段之间不能很好地结合，它们可能会相互竞争。而这种竞争是遗忘的重要原因之一。因此，只专注做一件事，再去做另一件事是非常重要的。如果你想玩社交媒体，那就玩吧，然后再去做你的工作。但频繁切换会让你痛苦，因为这会消耗你的认知控制能力，导致记忆变得零碎，还会增加压力。所以有很多因素都在影响。
I know there's a lot of tech bros who are just like, oh no, I'm multi-tasking great and you're not. Well, so I'm from the Bay Area and spent a lot of time with those folks, men and women in tech. I think that the best ones, like the truly exceptional ones, are very good at dropping into a trench of attention. They're very disciplined with their phone use. And the ones that are doing a lot of tests, which often aren't, don't have complete lives. They really don't. They're not taking care of their health also. And they are so about under their sense that they're working all the time when they're not.
我知道有很多科技界的人总是说，他们很擅长多任务处理，而你却不行。我来自湾区，和这些科技界的男男女女相处过不少时间。我认为，真正优秀的人能够专注于一件事情。他们在使用手机方面非常自律。而那些总是做很多事情的人往往并不是真正完整地生活。他们实际上没有照顾好自己的健康，并且一直觉得自己在不停地工作，但其实不是这样的。
As a graduate student, I didn't have a smartphone. I did something recently. I tweeted about this. You may have commented about it. I don't know. But this has helped me a lot. I took an old phone and I put social media on the old phone. And only social media. So it doesn't operate as a phone. I can airdrop things too. So I use that for looking at social media and for posting. That phone is in a box. And then my main phone is for texting and other forms of communication. So I still have that distraction around me. But social media is now a dedicated thing that I spend a specific amount of time. And I have a timer on that phone. So I allocate myself a certain amount of time each day. So for every moment I start that timer. Once it hits zero, that's it. And I'm starting to shorten that amount of time. The impact on productivity in terms of writing, in terms of researching, in terms of just dropping into conversation. It has been enormous with that simple switch. And I just find it easier to just segregate social media from the part of the problem. The phone is like in a walking office. It's not even a phone. It's a computer. It's just too much access.
作为研究生，我没有智能手机。最近我做了一件事，我在推特上分享了这件事。你可能对它发表过评论，我不太清楚。不过，这件事对我帮助很大。我拿了一部旧手机，只安装了社交媒体应用，所以它不再是手机，只能用于社交媒体上网。我可以通过隔空投送功能分享内容。所以我用它来浏览社交媒体和发布内容。这部手机放在一个盒子里，而我的主手机用于发短信和其他沟通方式。虽然我身边仍然有一些干扰，但现在社交媒体是一个专门的事情，我每天花特定的时间在上面。而且我在那部旧手机上设置了计时器，每次一开始就启动计时器，一旦时间为零，就停止使用。我也在逐渐缩短使用的时间。这样简单的改变对我的生产力，比如写作、研究和交流，产生了巨大影响。我发现将社交媒体与其他问题分开处理变得更容易。手机就像可移动的办公室，它已经不仅仅是一部手机，而更像是一台计算机，给了我太多的访问权限。
Well, and here's the thing. And this really gets back to this idea of engineering your environment. And because so much of our lives we're out of control even though we feel like we're in control, right? And it's really, I have a higher or a goal. Sometimes you have to do exactly what you did, which is hack your environment to allow to enable you to regain control. Right? So what I mean by this is it's like I, even though I might not check my phone, I might have alerts off. If I have a habit, I'm thinking about it. And every time I think about it that urge pops into mind, I'm getting a little distracted. I'm losing a little bit of executive control. So you don't even have to do it, right? You can just think about it.
好，那么重点在这里。这实际上是回到塑造你生活环境这个理念。因为在我们的生活中，很多事情看似在掌控之中，其实不然，对吧？关键在于，我有一个更高的追求或目标。有时候，你需要像你刚才那样，通过改造你的环境来帮助自己重新掌控局面，对吧？所以我想说的是，即使我不查看手机，或者关闭了通知，如果我有一个习惯，当我想到它的时候，每次这个冲动都会浮现在脑海中，这使我有点分心，让我失去了一些自控力。所以实际上你甚至不需要真正去做这件事，只要想到它就可能产生影响。
So in multitasking is just one thing. There's other things like one thing is, as I talk about in the book, is taking pictures. So you've probably been to concerts. I know I have where it's like, you know, people are like just filming the whole things on their phone. Or like now you see the rise of Instagram walls where you go into places and there's a wall that exists. So people can post Instagram. Nothing wrong with this. But most, not all the research, interestingly, and I can get into why, shows that taking pictures actually impoverishes people's memory. Really? Yeah. What about looking at pictures of, I think it was Larry Swire when I was down at San Diego that said that hanging a few pictures in your office of things that are really pleasant memories can really enhance your work environment because you look at them, you know, I remember that thing like because of all the context it brings about, you're saying that the act of taking pictures depletes our memory for that experience.
所以，多任务处理只是其中一件事。还有其他事情，比如我在书中提到的拍照。你可能去过音乐会，我也去过，那种场合很多人就是一直用手机拍摄整个过程。或者现在你看到Instagram墙的兴起，你走进一些地方，会有一面墙专门用来让人们发Instagram照片。这样做没有什么错，但大多数研究（不是全部，听起来很有趣，我可以详细解释）显示，拍照实际上会减弱人们的记忆。真的吗？那看照片呢？我记得在圣迭戈的时候，Larry Swire提到，在办公室挂几张让你有美好回忆的照片，真的能提升工作环境，因为你看到它们时，会想起那些带来的所有背景和情感。你是说拍照的过程会削弱我们对当时经历的记忆吗？
Let me be more specific about this, right? So let's say I'm mindlessly taking pictures. So I go in, I'm seeing the grand canyon, I'm just a ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. A lot of people, like intuitively on average will say that they will remember it better because they took pictures. But what often happens is they're not really focusing on the distinctive elements of their experience. They're just grabbing as much stuff as they can, right?
让我更具体一点，好吗？假设我漫不经心地拍照。我去到了大峡谷，只是不停地"咔嚓咔嚓"按快门。很多人直觉上会觉得，通过拍照能记得更清楚。但实际上，他们并没有真正关注自己经历中的独特元素，只是尽可能多地捕捉东西，对吧？
Let's get, the concert is another example. If you are filming the concert and you're just trying to grab what's being sung, you will have a recording of the concert. But what's the memory you want to have? Do you want to have a memory of this song that you already can stream any time? Or do you want the memory of how you felt, the friends you were with, the connection that you had with the artist because you were there? I know this sounds real hippy-dippy, but it's real in the sense that this is what you want to remember.
还有一个例子，比如说去听演唱会。如果你只是拍摄演唱会，尝试记录下所唱的内容，那么你会得到演唱会的录像。但你真正想留下的记忆是什么呢？是这首你随时可以在线收听的歌曲，还是你在现场的感受、和朋友在一起的时光、以及因为亲临现场与艺术家建立的联系？我知道这听起来有些空灵，但这确实是你想要铭记的东西。
I think, at least I don't want to lecture people if they want to remember taking pictures of things. That's fine. I'm sure everybody remembers taking pictures at these things. But what did you take a picture of? And so you can use the phone, and this is where the studies show good effects, is if I mindfully use the phone and I say like, there's something here that will be a good cue that will remind me later of this great conversation.
我认为，至少我不想去说教那些喜欢拍照的人。这没有问题。我相信每个人都记得自己在这些场合拍过照。但你究竟拍了什么呢？研究表明，如果我有意识地使用手机，比如说，这里有一个东西可以作为提示，稍后可以提醒我这次精彩的对话，那么使用手机就可以发挥好的效果。
I focus the camera on that, I take a picture, mindfully, I use the camera not as a way of spreading my attention and just grabbing everything in this shotgun approach, but rather use it to find what's distinctive and what's important and actually focus me on it. That's a really good thing. What I try to do is selectively document, not over document. I'll take a picture of people laughing or people eating. I like to go to conferences now. John Lissman used to do this, late John Lissman, and so he passed away and said, I'll try to do this, I think more about these things.
我把相机对准那个方向，心思专注地拍一张照片，而不是用相机随意抓取任何东西，就像散弹枪一样。我用相机寻找独特和重要的东西，真正地专注于它。这是件很好的事情。我尽量选择性地记录，而不是过度记录。我会拍人们笑或者吃东西的照片。我现在喜欢去参加会议。已故的约翰·利斯曼以前常这么做，他去世后我决定尝试这样做，并思考的更多。
I try to take pictures of people randomly, they're drinking a beer and then they spit out laughing or something like that. These are not things that are like landmarks, they're not things that are tourists, but they're great retrieval cues. What happens is the next part of it is seeing the picture. What do you do when you see the picture, do you scroll right? Or do you use it as a cue to effectively test yourself to recall what happened during that event and integrate it?
我尝试随机给人们拍照，比如他们正喝着啤酒，突然间大笑着喷出来类似的场景。这些照片不是地标，也不是旅游胜地，而是很好的记忆线索。接下来发生的是看到照片时的反应。你会怎么做？是直接滑过去，还是把它当作一个线索来有效地测试自己，回忆那次事件中发生了什么，并将其融入记忆中？
What's interesting is that act of recollecting the event in itself will change the memory and it can make it more accessible, but it can also make it a little bit more abstract and story-like. There is an interesting trade-off where you have these things where you have these memories and you could even document it, but if you use the more you retrieve it, the more accessible it will be, but sometimes it'll be less immersive and more like a story that you've told a hundred times.
有趣的是，回忆事件本身的过程会改变记忆，这不仅能让记忆更容易被想起，还可能让记忆变得更抽象和像故事一样。这种现象有一个有趣的权衡：你拥有的这些记忆，即使将它们记录下来，但每当你反复回忆它们，它们的可及性就越强，不过有时它们会变得不那么生动，更像是一个你已经讲过无数次的故事。
It sounds like if we go on a vacation or to a show or something that taking a photo as long as it's intentional, something specific, the key is to look at it later, not just post it, but to look at it later and to spend a few moments or more drawing to mind some of the emotional and cognitive experiences around that memory. That, however, changes the memory. Anytime we create a story, we're changing the memory, but perhaps provided it was a good experience.
这段话的意思是：当我们去度假或参加演出等活动时，可以拍下一些有意图的、特定的照片。关键在于后来要认真地看这些照片，而不仅仅是把它们发布出去。花点时间回忆与这些照片相关的情感和认知体验。这种做法会改变记忆。每当我们创造一个故事时，我们实际上是在改变记忆，不过，如果这是一次美好的体验，这种改变未尝不可。
That's better than to not access the photo at all, but I'm struck by, as you are, the number of people who are taking photos at a concert, a friend of mine who's a very successful photographer who shoots a lot of photos of musicians, thinks this is the craziest thing. As if any one of those photos is going to be meaningful, right? That they're outside of the experience of the concert, which is exactly what you're describing.
这比完全无法查看照片要好，但我和你一样，对在演唱会上拍照的人数感到惊讶。我有一个朋友是非常成功的摄影师，经常为音乐家拍摄照片，他认为这种行为很疯狂。这些照片中哪一张会有特别的意义呢？正如你所描述的，他们其实是在脱离演唱会的现场体验。
Maybe you just have a memory of taking a lot of photos. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. People will remember something, but it's not their feeling. It's not like the friends they were with and what they talked about. It's more like, I use this example in an interview, so apologies if people have already seen this, but I got to see the descendants. I'm guessing since you skateboarded, you probably had heard the descendants. The band was my own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I grew up listening to them in high school, but I never got to see them because all the great bands I got into broke up right before Black Flag and the Minuteman and so forth. When they reunited, I was like, I had an opportunity to see them in a club in Sacramento. I saw them for the first time. I wasn't one of the kids taking photos. I was actually watching, but then there was a moment where Bill Stevenson, the drummer, who's a super intense guy and really one of the creative forces behind the band, he gets up and he starts walking towards the crowd and Milo's like, sit down, go back behind the drums and he's like, no, I want to say something. And I was like, I got to take a picture of this because this is going to be like, he's really connecting with us.
也许你只是记得拍了很多照片。是的，这正是常发生的事。人们会记得一些事情，但那其实不是他们的感受。不是和他们在一起的朋友以及谈论的内容。就像我在一次采访中用到的这个例子，如果大家已经看到过请见谅。我曾有机会看到后裔乐队。我猜既然你滑过滑板，可能你听说过后裔。那乐队就是我自己的。对，对，对，没错。我在高中时听他们的歌长大，但从没见过他们，因为我喜欢上的所有伟大乐队，比如黑旗、民兵，他们在我入坑之前就解散了。当他们重聚时，我有机会在萨克拉门托的一个俱乐部看到他们。我第一次看到他们。我不是那些拍照的小孩之一，我其实是在观看演出。然后有个瞬间，鼓手比尔·史蒂文森，他是个超级投入的人，也是乐队背后真正的创意力量之一，他站起来走向人群。Milo说，“坐下，回到鼓后面去。”而他则说，“不，我想说点什么。”我心想，我得拍下这一刻，因为他是真的在和我们交流。
And he talked about how cool it was to just be able to have this moment where he's now at this age able to appreciate this connection that he has with the audience that he couldn't appreciate before he was younger. And I was like, I'm taking a picture of this because that's what I want to remember. You won't remember everything, but if I look at that photo, technically I haven't looked at that photo again, but just taking a picture of this, I'm not going to tell you what I want to remember. But just taking the picture of it forced me to really think about that. And that's the biggest takeaway I have. You know, a lot of the songs they played, they did a really good job on, but what I really took away from that was this connection that I had really wanted when I was a kid, you know, and re-experiencing that feeling of being a kid and hearing these songs when they were fresh and new for me. And so that's, I know I'm sounding like kind of a hippie or something. Not a hippie sound like a punk rocker. It's not confused at all. Exactly.
他谈到了能够拥有这样一个时刻是多么酷的事，现在他这个年龄能够欣赏自己与观众之间的这种联系，而在年轻的时候是无法感受到的。我当时想，我要拍下这张照片，因为我想记住这一刻。你不会记得所有事情，但如果我看那张照片，实际上我并没有再次看那张照片，但拍下这张照片让我真正思考这一点。这是我最大的收获。虽然他们演奏的很多歌曲都非常棒，但我真正收获的是那种我小时候渴望的联系，重新体验作为孩子时听到这些歌曲时的新鲜感和那种感觉。我知道我听起来有点像嬉皮士，不是嬉皮士，而是像朋克摇滚乐手。完全不混淆。就是这样。
I got a digress all over the place. No, no, I have a question that I'm hoping buying some of this together related to taking photos and memories. I keep many photos. I like printed photos. I have these in a drawer. They mean very much to me. Some of them are in the studio. When I keep most of them in a drawer at home. Polaroids are an interesting example, I think, of what you're describing. The act of taking a Polaroid is more than just clicking or pressing with your thumb on a camera. There's a waiting process. You actually get to see the photo emerge over time.
我有点跑题了，不过我有一个问题，希望能把这些想法结合起来，跟拍照片和记忆有关。我收藏了许多照片，我喜欢打印出来的照片，把这些照片放在一个抽屉里，它们对我来说非常重要。有些放在工作室里，但大部分我都放在家里的抽屉里。我觉得拍立得是个有趣的例子，不仅仅是按一下相机按钮那么简单。拍立得的过程有一个等待期，你可以亲眼看到照片一点点显现出来。
I would bet, even though I haven't run the study, I would bet that people keep Polaroids more than they, and look at. Polaroids more than they keep other photos. Which if you think about it is, if it's true, if it's true, is counter logic because usually people want to do another photo because they don't like the way they looked in the previous photo. With Polaroids, you can't do too many of those. Yeah. It's kind of one and done, maybe two and done. But I feel like the act of taking the Polaroid, waiting for the photo to emerge, kind of stamps it in your memory of the experience itself and the act of taking the photo is more involved. It's more of a process than just a click. Then you see the photo later. Now, of course, with digital photography, you see it, but you can take 100, you can take 10 photos like that.
我敢打赌，即使我没有进行过研究，我也敢说人们保存和欣赏宝丽来照片的频率要高于其他照片。如果你仔细想想，这其实违反常理，因为通常情况下，人们拍再多张照片是因为他们不喜欢之前照片中的样子。但用宝丽来拍照，你不能拍很多次。通常是一拍定局，最多两次。我觉得拍宝丽来的过程，包括等待照片显现，都会让你对这个体验和拍摄过程记忆深刻，这比简单按下快门要更为复杂和投入。当然，现在有了数码摄影，你可以即时看到照片，而且可以轻松拍上十张、一百张。
If we were to export this theme of limiting our task switching as a way to enhance our memory, setting up our environment in a way where we put our phone away perhaps, and we also are focused on intention why we are in something. Do you think that there's something positively reinforcing about getting into a trench, as I call it? Because I find that conversations like this, one of the reasons I do this podcast, the solo episodes and these interviews is that they provide something that my life prior to it did not provide, which was depth. I mean, we're just here. There's no phones here. And if there are, they're off. And I feel like anytime we go into these trenches, it could be a video game, could be an interaction with a loved one of various kinds.
如果我们将限制任务切换作为增强记忆的一种方法来推广这一主题，并通过把手机放一边等方式来设置我们的环境，同时专注于我们投入其中的意图。你认为进入我所说的“沟渠”中会有积极的强化作用吗？因为我发现像这样的对话是我制作播客、独立节目和这些采访的原因之一，它们提供了一种我之前的生活中没有的深度。就是说，我们就在这里。这里没有手机，即便有也都是关掉的。我觉得，每次我们进入这些“沟渠”，无论是视频游戏，还是与亲人的各种互动，都能带来深刻体验。
But when we go into these tunnels of attention, there's something that's so deeply satisfying about it, especially to those who have attention deficit issues, that it feels like something real happened and the rest is just noise. Is there any relationship of this, of the focus system to release of dopamine? I know release of dopamine can drive focus, but is the reverse also true? That if you're in a state of focus, do you enhance the release of dopamine? Correct. That's the question. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I wish I could give you an answer and say, I don't know. And it would be really hard to disentangle the chicken in the egg, right? Because if you're measuring dopamine activity, you'd have to. Well, okay.
但是，当我们进入这些专注的隧道时，这种体验让人感到非常满足，尤其是对那些有注意力缺陷问题的人来说，这种感觉就像是真实的事情发生了，而其他一切只是噪音。那么这种专注的状态与多巴胺的释放有没有关系呢？我知道多巴胺的释放可以驱动专注力，但反过来也成立吗？也就是说，如果你处于专注的状态，会不会增强多巴胺的释放？对，就是这个问题。嗯，我不知道。我希望能给你一个答案，但我不确定。因为要弄清楚多巴胺活动和专注力之间的关系，就像是鸡和蛋的问题，很难分清楚。
So here's what I can say is that I think that we often think of, you know, we think of, like, let's say an emotion, right, or any other mental state. And we think of it like it just happens. But in fact, there's a time scale to these things, right? So it's like there is a basic response that you get when somebody points a gun at you. But then there's an interpretation that you have that can take that threat response and make it into something more. And then you're like really jacking up your noradrenergic activity, right? You could testify. Yeah.
所以，我想说的是，我们经常会想到情绪或其他心理状态时，觉得它们是突然发生的。但实际上，这些反应是有时间过程的。举个例子，当有人用枪指着你时，你会有基本的反应。然而，你对此威胁的解读可能会让这个反应变得更复杂，进而大幅提升你的去甲肾上腺素活动。你可以证明这一点。
But it's like, I mean, well, in that case, it could be a catastrophe. But if you survive, you averted the catastrophe. The question is, does the potential catastrophe live within you, or does it die within you? You only need to live within you sufficiently enough that you avoid the threat in the future, right? But that's the double edged sword of noradrenergic systems is that they capture lots of memory and they open up thoughts about what could have gone wrong. Yeah. But if it didn't go wrong, it didn't go wrong. You're alive. You only need to remember to avoid whatever puts you in that circumstance. Yeah. But that can still be scary, right? Sure. And this is where I think it's like this, we talked about this before, this appraisal is very important, you know, in the case of focus, it's a little bit different.
这段话的大意是：
但是，就像我想说的，如果在那种情况下，可能会发生灾难。但如果你幸存下来，就等于避免了灾难。问题是，那潜在的灾难是留在你心里，还是随之消失？你只需要它在你心里留下足够的痕迹，以便在未来避免威胁，不是吗？但是，这也是去甲肾上腺素系统的双刃剑，因为它记录大量记忆，并促使我们思考可能会出错的地方。是的。但是如果没有出错，那就没有出错。你还活着。你只需要记住避免任何会把你置于那种情况下的事情。是的。但那依然可能让人感到害怕，对吗？当然。这就是我认为，之前我们谈到过的，这种评估是非常重要的，你知道的，专注的情况下有点不同。
But just to make this very concrete, the prefrontal cortex has top down inputs to many of the neuromodulatory systems. So on average, people tend to think of the neuromodulatory systems like dopamine and norepinephrine is being very bottom up. They just send signals everywhere and set the brain into focus or not focus or whatever. But the prefrontal cortex has some anatomically, at least some capability of regulating those systems, both directly and indirectly. And so that does, I think, speak to this idea that if you have a very strong goal focus, you can, in fact, regulate the dopamine system. I think it's a reasonable and norepinephrine to neurodrenergic systems. So I think it's a reasonable thing. And I bet you, Amy Arndtston has done some related work on this topic. I'll check it out.
为了使这段内容更加具体，可以这样理解：前额叶皮质对很多神经调节系统有自上而下的输入。通常人们认为像多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素这样的神经调节系统是自下而上的，它们到处发送信号，让大脑处于专注或不专注等状态。然而，前额叶皮质至少在解剖学上具有一定的能力，可以直接或间接地调节这些系统。这表明，如果你有非常强烈的目标导向，实际上可以调节多巴胺系统，我觉得这是合理的，去甲肾上腺素系统也是如此。我想这也是合理的。我猜Amy Arndtston在这方面做过相关研究，我会去查一下。
Earlier you mentioned, and I want to make sure that we return to this notion of taking care of one's vision and one's hearing as a way to offset memory loss. Very important concepts. Could you share with us what's known about that? This is just starting to be a thing, but the effect sizes, for instance, for hearing rates are really strong, both in reducing AD risk, I believe, and in Alzheimer's dementia. Alzheimer's risk and in just good cognitive aging and keeping your memory as you get older. So don't you listen to your headphones too loud? Yes. This is right. Right? Well, actually, okay, so speaking of things I did to preserve my brain health, I'm playing in a band now and we're pretty damn loud. So I went to an audiologist and I got custom earplugs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the top music friends with some really amazing musicians, they all wear insert earplugs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I think these customers will be more effective at both preserving the spectrum of all the frequencies. Oh, I just mean protect your hearing.
早些时候你提到，我们应该关注保护视力和听力，以此来抵消记忆力衰退的问题。这是非常重要的概念。关于这个问题，目前有哪些研究结果呢？虽然这方面的研究才刚刚起步，但听力保护在降低阿尔茨海默病风险和与阿尔茨海默相关的痴呆风险方面的效果显著，同时对良好的认知老化以及保持年老时的记忆力也很重要。所以不要把耳机音量调得太大，对吧？事实上，为了保护我的大脑健康，我现在在一个乐队里演奏，我们的声音真的很大。因此，我去找了听力科医生，定制了一副耳塞。没错，我的很多音乐界朋友，都是一些很棒的音乐家，他们都戴着耳塞。我觉得定制耳塞在保护听力的同时，还能有效保持所有频率的音质。总之，我的意思是保护好你的听力。
Yeah. Yeah. No, but they're related because if you can't hear your frequencies, you might end up turning up. You get this paradoxical thing. Sure. Too much information I know, but basically that is. Yeah. So there is this issue with in fact, actually there's an article that the shares I sent me in the Lancet that one of their public health recommendations is to get into a preventative mode for preventing Alzheimer's disease. And one of the things they say is screen for hearing and give people hearing aids and make people use them if they have and encourage people to use them. The vision is starting to be a big one. People who are older get cataracts, get it treated. A lot of this preventative healthcare, which our system is not really equipped for it, but it can really save so much money, can save so much emotional pain for so many people. It's really amazing.
是的，是的。没错，但它们是相关的，因为如果你听不清自己的频率，你可能会调高音量，这会产生一个矛盾的情况。我知道这些信息有点多，但基本上就是这样。事实上，确实有一个问题，我发给我的那篇文章《柳叶刀》提出了一项公共卫生建议，就是要采取预防措施来预防阿尔茨海默病。其中一项建议是进行听力筛查，并为有需要的人配备助听器，鼓励他们使用。视力问题现在也开始变得重要，老年人得了白内障要及时治疗。我们当前的医疗系统并不太适应这些预防性保健措施，但这些措施确实可以节省很多费用，也能减少很多人的情感痛苦，真是太棒了。
Another one I mentioned briefly is oral hygiene. Gum disease, it turns out, increases your risk for, I believe, it's Alzheimer's and also for cognitive brain health in general. So I did an episode on oral health and the effects on, as you said, on brain health are amazing because streptococcus mutins, which is the bacteria that causes cavities, can funnel its way into the bloodstream and potentially cross the blood brain barrier, which is I think why people think it might be detrimental to brain health.
另一个我之前提到过的就是口腔卫生。研究表明，牙龈疾病会增加患阿尔茨海默症的风险，并且对大脑的整体认知健康也有影响。我做过一期关于口腔健康的节目，你提到的口腔健康对大脑的影响非常神奇，因为导致蛀牙的链球菌（streptococcus mutans）可以进入血液，并有可能穿过血脑屏障。我想这就是为什么人们认为它可能对大脑健康有害的原因。
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the detailed mechanisms, but I think that makes sense. And there's this vague notion of cognitive reserve, which is basically some people seem to be quite immune to the effects of cognitive aging. And some people seem to be very protected against Alzheimer's disease. So what is it? One of the things that seems to come up as far as depleting cognitive reserve or putting at a higher risk seems to be inflammation, right?
是的，是的。我是说，我不清楚具体的机制，但我认为这很有道理。有一个模糊的概念叫做"认知储备"，基本上是指有些人似乎对认知老化的影响免疫。而且有些人似乎对阿尔茨海默病有很高的保护力。那么这是什么原因呢？其中一个可能消耗认知储备或增加风险的因素似乎是炎症，对吧？
Neuroinflammation. And so, kim McAllister, as you know, was doing work on this topic of neuroimmune interactions and basically the immune system expresses itself in the brain. You get microglia activation that can cause these inflammatory responses. And there's reasonable evidence suggests that it's interacting with tau and amyloid and this kind of cascade of stuff that happens in Alzheimer's disease, right?
神经炎症。那么，正如你所知，Kim McAllister 正在研究神经免疫相互作用这个课题，基本上就是免疫系统在大脑中的表现。免疫系统会激活小胶质细胞，从而引发炎症反应。有相当的证据表明，它与 tau 蛋白和淀粉样蛋白相互作用，导致发生在阿尔茨海默病中的一系列反应，对吗？
And one of the things that we're learning now, and we don't know nearly enough, but the data out there is quite scary, in fact, is long COVID is associated with significant cognitive effects. And brain, is that the explanation for the brain fog that people report? Well, so they report a subjective brain fog and you can see this, you can measure this as a significant cognitive deficit that they're experiencing, right?
我们现在了解到的一件事情是，虽然我们对其了解还远远不够，但现有的数据实际上令人感到担忧，那就是长新冠与显著的认知影响有关。那么，大脑问题是否是人们报告的脑雾现象的解释呢？他们确实报告了主观的脑雾，而你可以看到并测量到这种现象实际上是他们经历的显著认知损伤，对吗？
And we've seen in the past, like HIV was, there was actually a whole variety of dementia that was associated with HIV from the viral transmission. Like you can see with multiple sclerosis where you have autoimmune responses in the brain affect mental function dramatically. We're seeing more and more evidence of this. And so this is again, another one of those things, it's like, you'll go, Oh, COVID, I don't care about it. I mean, this is a health thing that can really affect people and I don't think anybody, it's not a political issue to get brain fog. It sucks, right? Nobody wants this.
在过去，我们看到类似于艾滋病（HIV）这样的情况，艾滋病的病毒传播实际上曾与多种痴呆症有关联。就像在多发性硬化症中，你可以看到自身免疫反应对大脑的影响显著削弱了人的精神功能。我们现在看到越来越多这种情况的证据。因此，这又是一个让人意识到问题严重性的例子。你可能会觉得“哦，新冠病毒，我并不在乎”，但这确实是一个对人们健康有重大影响的问题。我认为没人想得“脑雾”，这不是一个政治问题，而是我们都不想面对的麻烦，对吧？
So I think there's a lot we're learning about viruses and bacteria. One of the cool things I was talking about before we started recording is I was at a conference, I'm at the coolest guy and I'm blanking on his name, but I'll send it to you after. But he's, he did this great study and he was studying the effects of nutrition on brain health and memory, especially cognition. And so I told, what's the most interesting finding that you've gotten? I love to ask people this because I'm curious, it stimulates my curiosity and I usually get a good answer. So he told me to the study where he has these rats and he gives them sugary water during the day about the equivalent he said to a can of coca day.
所以我觉得我们在病毒和细菌方面有很多可以学习的东西。在我们开始录音之前，我刚才提到了一件很酷的事情：我参加了一个会议，遇到了一个非常出色的人，我一时想不起他的名字了，但我之后会把名字发给你。他进行了一项很棒的研究，研究营养对大脑健康和记忆，特别是认知方面的影响。所以我问他，你得到的最有趣的发现是什么呢？我喜欢问这个问题，因为我很好奇，这会激发我的好奇心，而且通常会让我得到一个很好的答案。他告诉我一个研究，他在这项研究中给老鼠白天喝糖水，大约相当于每天喝一罐可乐。
So they're getting the sugar when they reach adulthood, you know, these teenage rats, they reach adulthood and they have memory problems and they do, they have hippocampal atrophy. So you go, okay, well, the hippocampus is affected, memory is affected, sugar, blah, blah, blah, no problem. So then what he does is he takes the gut bacteria from the sugar animals and puts it in an animal that doesn't get this diet. And he finds the same kind of pathology and the same kind of memory deficit in these animals.
所以，当这些年轻的老鼠长到成年时，他们摄取了大量的糖分，你知道的，这些青少年老鼠到了成年后出现了记忆问题，而且确实是这样，他们的海马体出现萎缩。于是你会想，好吧，海马体受到了影响，记忆也受到了影响，都是因为糖，诸如此类，听起来没什么大问题。然而，他接下来做的是，把吃糖老鼠的肠道细菌移植到没有吃这种饮食的老鼠体内。结果发现，这些老鼠也出现了同样的病理变化和记忆缺陷。
So there's something about that process of like the gut brain interaction that also seems to be playing a part in ways that I don't understand. I think they're still figuring it out. But again, this really shows this tight neuroimmune link. We're seeing this now with pollution. Air pollution is a big factor. So even if people don't believe in global warming, it's nothing good about being in a place with a lot of smoke in the area. It's definitely, and this is one of the risk factors that is noted in the Lancet Report for Alzheimer's disease. One of my colleagues, Pam Line, is doing research on this at UC Davis showing that she actually takes real pollution from the Caldecott Tunnel, which connects Oakland and– On a creek. Yeah. And finds that rats exposed to this pollution have hippocampal damage. So there's so many of these environmental factors that can trigger the inflammatory response. We talked about blood sugar. Blood sugar also seems to be related to these issues. And diabetes is so bad in so many ways.
这个过程中的某些因素，比如肠道和大脑的相互作用，看起来在以一种我不太理解的方式发挥作用。我认为科学家们还在研究中。但这再次显示了神经免疫之间的紧密联系。现在我们看到污染也有类似的影响。空气污染是一个重要因素。即使有人不相信全球变暖，住在烟雾弥漫的地方肯定不是好事。这是《柳叶刀》报告中指出的阿尔茨海默病的风险因素之一。我的一位同事，Pam Line，在加州大学戴维斯分校研究这方面的问题。她的研究表明，她从连接奥克兰和通往溪流的Caldecott隧道中取出真实的污染物，并发现暴露在这些污染物下的老鼠出现了海马体损伤。有很多环境因素可以引发炎症反应。我们之前提到过血糖问题，血糖似乎也与这些问题有关。糖尿病以多种方式影响健康，非常不利。
It's associated with those white matter hyperintensities that we talked about. And so that's bad. We've done some research on that. But it also affects– it can cause little– if you get severe diabetic ketoacidosis, you can actually have hippocampal damage from that directly. And it also dramatically increases Alzheimer's risk. We're having an epidemic of diabetes right now. This probably explains, at least in my mind, why these lifestyle factors like improved sleep, cardiovascular and resistance training exercise, but certainly cardiovascular exercise, you know, eating a lot of leafy foods, et cetera. We know all of those things offset inflammation, to some degree or another. Right. I mean, one of the best ways to inflame your brain. The body is to knock it enough sleep and eat, you know, a lot of highly processed foods, for instance.
这与我们之前讨论过的白质高信号有关，这是一件不好的事情。我们在这方面做过一些研究。除此之外，它还会影响——如果您得了严重的糖尿病酮症酸中毒，可能会导致海马体直接受损。同时，它也会显著增加阿尔茨海默病的风险。现在我们正面临糖尿病的流行。在我看来，这大概可以解释为什么生活方式因素，比如改善睡眠、进行心血管和阻力训练，尤其是心血管运动，以及多吃绿色蔬菜等，都有帮助。我们知道这些因素在某种程度上都可以减少炎症。没错，给大脑和身体带来炎症的主要方式之一就是缺乏足够的睡眠和摄入大量高度加工食品。
To date, are there any even semi-satisfactory prescription drugs or other compounds that can slow the progression of Alzheimer's dementia once it's started? There are now some drugs that are, I think, they're targeting amyloid that are producing some modest effects in stalling the progression of the disease. See, the problem with Alzheimer's, as you know, is once you lose neurons, you're not getting them back, right? And it's like, yeah, there's neurogenesis and you can run around, but it's not much. It's not much. You don't want to– if you're depending on that, you're host, you know. So, like, but getting back to the exercise thing, it's neuroprotective. And so, like, let's say with a drug, right? I mean, everybody wants a drug. If I told you I'd give you this drug, you're 60 years old and it's going to have some terrible side effects. You're going to get diarrhea and nausea, all the stuff, but it'll reduce your risk of Alzheimer's by 40%. A lot of people have been motivated to take it. Now I tell you, okay, well, here's a lifestyle intervention that's going to involve what Sarah Meddin calls downstates. It doesn't have– we can actually get into that in memory reactivation during downstates, but involves sleep, diet, exercise, social stimulation, right? And these things, by the way, also reinforce each other.
截至目前，有没有哪怕是部分满意的处方药或其他化合物能在阿尔茨海默症开始后减缓其进展？现在确实有一些药物，我认为它们针对的是淀粉样蛋白，可以产生一些轻微的效果以延缓疾病的进展。问题在于阿尔茨海默症，一旦失去神经元，就无法恢复，对吧？虽然有神经再生的现象，但并不多。你不想依赖它，因为如果只靠这个，你可能就没戏了。所以，回到运动这个话题，它具有神经保护作用。打个比方，假设有一种药物，每个人都想拥有这样的药。如果我告诉你，我会给你这药，你60岁了，吃了会有一些严重的副作用，比如腹泻和恶心等，但能降低40%的患阿尔茨海默症的风险，很多人可能会很愿意尝试。现在我告诉你，有一种生活方式的干预措施，涉及Sarah Meddin所称的“downstates”，实际包括睡眠、饮食、锻炼和社交刺激，而这些因素还能相互增强。
Having better sleep makes it easier to exercise. Having extra as it makes it easier to better sleep. All of these improve mood, right? So these will improve your mental function, your mood, as well as your mental function, relatively soon, and reduce your risk by at least 40%, if not more. Wow. If you go to– I can send you this Lancet article, but it's like the amount– the proportion of variance, meaning the degree of risk that you can reduce with fully preventable or fully in our control lifestyle issues is huge. It's as big or bigger than the genetics. I think people really need to hear and internalize that because I think everyone's waiting for this miracle drug that is unlikely to ever arrive, frankly. I mean, you know, today we have some okay treatments for Parkinson's to try and offset the loss of dopaminergic neurons, but they can even transplant, essentially dopaminergic neurons into the substantia nigra. But none of those things, L-dopa, etc., have proved to be cures for Parkinson's. Not getting hit in the head is helpful. Oh, yeah. Traumatic brain injury is another one of the big risks factors. So there are a lot of don'ts. I'm grateful that today you're sharing a number of do's, both in the context of offsetting age-related cognitive decline Alzheimer's, but also in terms of how to enhance focus and enhance memory.
睡得更好让锻炼变得更容易，而且锻炼也让你更容易有好的睡眠。这些都会改善情绪，对吗？所以这些在短时间内会提高你的心理功能和情绪，并减少至少40%的风险，甚至更多。哇。我可以给你看这篇《柳叶刀》的文章，它讲的是，能够通过完全可预防或我们可以控制的生活方式因素减少的风险比例很大。这个比例和遗传因素对风险的影响一样大，甚至更大。我认为人们真的需要听到并明白这一点，因为大家都在等一个很可能永远不会来的神奇药物。坦白说，今天我们有一些还不错的帕金森病治疗方法，试图抵消多巴胺能神经元的丧失，他们甚至可以把多巴胺能神经元移植到黑质中。但这些东西，例如左旋多巴等，还没有被证明是帕金森病的治愈方法。不受头部外伤是有帮助的。是的，外伤性脑损伤是另一个重大风险因素。所以有很多不能做的事。今天你分享了一些可以做的事，我很感激，这些可以在抵消与年龄相关的认知衰退和老年痴呆症方面提供帮助，还可以提高注意力和增强记忆力。
I want to make sure that we touch on a few topics related to memory that are a little bit off the trajectory we're on now, but they come up a lot when people start thinking about memory. And one that's kind of intriguing, very intriguing, is deja vu. Do we have any understanding about what deja vu is? Is it just like a recollection of something similar that spontaneously gets triggered? I'm like, what is deja vu? Well, it's not fully understood, but I'll give you my best guess that science-based and not just my wildly speculating completely. But basically, one of the early findings that gave you a sense about what deja vu is is healings Jackson, who's this great neurologist who did pioneering work in behavioral neurology, observed that many patients who get epilepsy would have this aura.
我想确保我们能讨论一些关于记忆的主题，它们有点偏离我们当前的轨道，但当人们开始思考记忆时，这些主题常常会被提到。其中一个话题非常有趣，那就是似曾相识。我们对似曾相识有什么了解吗？这是不是像某种相似记忆的自发触发呢？我很好奇，似曾相识到底是什么？其实，目前对此并没有完全理解，但我会用科学为基础，给你一个不是完全凭空猜测的最佳推测。基本上，早期的一些研究提供了关于似曾相识的线索，比如杰出的神经学家杰克逊，他在行为神经学领域做了开创性的工作，他观察到许多癫痫患者在发作前会有这种感觉。
It's this mental sensations right before a seizure where they would get an intense feeling of deja vu. It doesn't happen in everyone, but a certain number. And this is associated with temporal lobe epilepsy. And the hippocampus, as you know, is in the temporal lobe. But there's also these areas around it that are super important for memory, including the amygdala, but also really the perirondyl cortex is a key key player in this. And so then you have Wilder Penfield and other people who started to do these surgeries for epilepsy. And
翻译成中文大意并易读：在癫痫发作前，有些人会经历一种强烈的“似曾相识”的心理感受。这并不是每个人都会经历，但一部分人会。这种现象与颞叶癫痫有关。正如你所知，海马体位于颞叶中，但周围还有一些对记忆非常重要的区域，包括杏仁核，尤其是环旁皮层在这其中扮演着非常关键的角色。于是，Wilder Penfield和其他一些人开始进行癫痫的手术治疗。
They said, well, I want to make sure I'm not taking out good brain, right? You don't want to. So Penfield wasn't responsible for HM, and that was like kind of an irresponsible surgery. HM is a now dead, famous patient and literally chapter in the history of neuroscience that somebody who had his hippocampus, bilaterally, one on each side of the brain removed to treat epilepsy. It fixed the epilepsy, but he had lost all capacity to remember prior events. Yeah. And so in fact, he had this dense, dense amnesia, right?
他们说：“我想确保自己没有切除健康的大脑，对吧？你也不想那样做。” 所以，Penfield 并不是导致 HM 手术的责任人，而那次手术可以说是不负责任的手术。HM 是一位已故的著名病人，也是神经科学历史上的一个重要章节。有人为了治疗癫痫，双侧切除了他的海马体（大脑的两侧各一个）。虽然这治好了他的癫痫，但他完全失去了记忆过去事件的能力。他因此患上了严重的失忆症。
And actually one of the little known things, even in memory research, is he actually lost, he had what's called a temporal lobectomy where they just hack off the front part of the temporal lobe. It might have been cauterized. I can't remember the exact thing. He cauterized it. But anyway, they do that temporal lobectomy. And he actually had the posterior one third of his hippocampus, but he had lost his perirondyl cortex bilaterally. And that turned out to be Betsy Murray at NIH later, and other people turned out to be a huge thing. So one of the reasons I think that he became so densely amnestic is that it was bilateral. So if you think about the brain, like you have a side of the brain that's causing a seizure, so you kind of got a spare tire on the other side where it's like that other healthy tissue on the other side can sometimes pick up the slack. But if you take out both hemispheres now, you're in really bad shape.
实际上，即便是在记忆研究领域，这里提到的一个不太为人所知的事实是，他进行了所谓的颞叶切除手术，就是把颞叶的前部切除掉。可能是用电烙的方法弄掉的，我不太记得具体手术方法。但无论如何，他们进行了颞叶切除手术。他实际上保留了后三分之一的海马体，但双侧的周缘皮层却丢失了。后来，NIH的贝琪·穆雷和其他人发现，这个因素的重要性非常大。我认为他变得如此严重失忆的原因之一就是因为这种损伤是双侧的。就像大脑中的一侧引起癫痫发作时，你还有一个“备用轮胎”，也就是另一侧健康组织有时能弥补作用。但如果把两个半球都去除了，那情况就非常糟糕了。
So Scoville did that. You actually did it for people who are. HM had Sir Epilepsy and it was a legit operation and that's it. But you did it for people who had, I think, psychosis, due to depression. I mean, back then they just did all kinds of crazy stuff. So, but Penfield was like, no, I want to make sure I take out only the tissue that needs to go. And so, what do you do? You stimulate different parts of the brain and you see does it produce anything other than a seizure. And if so, that's not an area you want to remove. And so he would go into the anterior temporal lobes and stimulate and people would have.
所以斯科维尔就这么做了。他确实为一些患有癫痫的人进行了这种手术，HM 就是一个典型的案例，这是一次正规的手术，仅此而已。但斯科维尔也为那些因为抑郁而产生精神病症状的人进行了类似的手术。在那个年代，他们尝试了各种疯狂的东西。然而，彭菲尔德的做法有所不同，他想确保只切除必须去掉的脑组织。那么，他怎么做呢？他会刺激大脑的不同部位，观察是否会产生除了癫痫之外的其他反应。如果出现其他反应，那就说明这个区域不适合切除。因此，他会刺激前颞叶，人们就会……
Sometimes they would have an intense real memory. But sometimes they would have this intense sense of deja vu where it's like they feel this. I feel like I've lived out this whole thing that's happening right now. I've lived it before. When you know that's not true, right? So what is this? Well, a number of people, my lab was heavily involved with this in Andy Onelina. UC Davis was really central to a lot of the stuff. Found that the peririnal cortex, which is this area, as I said, it's a big player with the hippocampus, seems to be very critical for this general sense of familiarity that we have. And so, you know, using the book an example of like, if I say, have you eaten a rhombutan before?
有时候，他们会有非常真实的记忆。但有时候，他们会有一种强烈的既视感，就好像他们觉得：“我好像之前经历过现在正在发生的这一切。”而你知道这不是真的。那么这是什么呢？很多人参与了研究，我的实验室和安迪·奥尼林娜在这方面做了大量工作，加州大学戴维斯分校在其中起到了非常重要的作用。研究发现，海马体旁皮层（perirhinal cortex）这个区域在我们的熟悉感中起到了关键作用。比如，我问你：“你以前吃过红毛丹吗？”
Now you being a worldly guy might have you ever eaten a rhombutan? I don't know what that is. Okay. So how quick was it that you were able to say no, that you were able to think about it? I've never eaten a rhombutan. Less than a second. Okay. So you didn't have to search your entire memory for whether or not you've eaten a rhombutan. You know because it's so unfamiliar, right? So things that are highly familiar, like, you know, maybe I'll ask if you've eaten a banana before or grapes before, you can say yes, because, and partly you don't even have to remember any instance. It just feels right. You know, those are very familiar things to you.
现在你是个见多识广的人，你吃过红毛丹吗？ 我不知道那是什么。 好吧。 那么你能说“不”有多快？能判断出来用了多长时间？我从没吃过红毛丹。不到一秒。 所以你不需要费劲回忆自己有没有吃过红毛丹。因为这个词对你来说非常陌生，对吗？ 对于那些非常熟悉的东西，比如我问你有没有吃过香蕉或葡萄，你可以立即回答“吃过”，因为你甚至不需要想起具体的经历。 对你来说，那些都是非常熟悉的东西。
Have you ever seen a grape before? Yes, of course you have, right? Apple. Very familiar to people. So we just have that general fluency and you can look at this like, you go into the grocery store and you see someone and you're like, I know I've seen this person before. Where have I seen them before? And then you leave and eventually you're like, Oh, well, that was somebody who I met at this conference or something like that. But you weren't expecting them at this context. It's and no episodic memory is triggered. But there was something about their features that felt very fluent and natural to you and triggered that sense of familiarity.
你见过葡萄吗？当然见过，对吧？苹果对大家来说也一样很熟悉。所以我们对这些事物有一种普遍的熟悉感。就像你进超市时看到一个人，你会觉得：“我肯定见过这个人。”但是一时想不起来是在什么场合见过。直到离开后突然想到：“哦，我是在某个会议上见过Ta。”只不过当时没有想到会在这种环境下碰到他们，所以大脑没有明显的记忆触发。但这个人的某些特征让你感到自然熟悉，产生了一种熟悉的感觉。
And that seems to be processed and you can see brain activity associated with that in the periorinal cortex. And people with damage to the periorinal cortex seem to not differentiate between the rhombutan and the banana. It's all kind of unfamiliar to them. They might remember I've eaten a banana, but they don't necessarily have that sense of familiarity. And Rebecca Burwell at Brown University, the coolest experiment that doesn't nearly get. You know how in science you get these unsung hero experiments? Well, one of these, this was one of them where she stimulated in rats the periorinal cortex at this frequency called the beta frequency, which is kind of a relatively low frequency oscillation. And basically put two objects in front of the animal.
这段文字翻译成中文如下：
“这似乎已经被处理过了，你可以在大脑的周围皮层中看到与之相关的脑活动。而那些周围皮层受损的人似乎无法区分红毛丹和香蕉。对他们来说，这些事物都显得有些陌生。他们可能会记得自己吃过香蕉，但未必有一种熟悉的感觉。布朗大学的Rebecca Burwell做了一个非常酷的实验，这些实验在科学界很少被人提及。你知道在科学研究中有一些默默无闻的英雄实验吗？这是其中之一。在这个实验中，她以一种叫做β频率的相对较低的振荡频率对大鼠的大脑周围皮层进行刺激，然后把两个物体放在动物面前。”
And so like typically, if there's a new object, the animal will spend more time like exploring it. Right? And depending on how she timed the stimulation, she could make the animal think that a familiar object was novel. She stimulates it a different frequency. I think it was gamma. And the animal now thinks of, or actually it was like, yeah, so that she thinks now the animal thinks that it's a very similar object. Now the animal thinks that a familiar thing is novel with beta was that it thought a novel thing was familiar. Wow. So could literally use this stimulation to change the way the animal is interacting with and presumably a memory driven way with this object.
通常情况下，如果有一个新物体，动物会花更多时间去探索，对吧？根据她调节刺激的时间，她可以让动物觉得一个熟悉的物体是新的。她以不同的频率进行刺激，我想是伽马频率。结果是，动物现在认为这个熟悉的物体是新的。而当使用贝塔频率时，动物会认为新的东西是熟悉的。哇，这样通过刺激就能直接改变动物与物体互动的方式，很可能是通过记忆机制来实现的。
So for those looking for novelty in different domains of life, maybe this is the solution. And so, Anne Cleary just to close the loop here, who's a great researcher at Colorado State developed this beautiful paradigm where what she does is she said, okay, well does that relate to deja vu? Well, let's see. So what she does is use virtual reality. And so in virtual reality, you can create these environments and put objects in particular places. And so she creates these virtual environments where there are particular objects in particular places. And let's say one's a museum, right? So a person can go through passively and watch a movie or they actively navigate through these spaces. And then what she does is she has them go through, let's say, a video arcade. But unbeknownst to the subject, the objects that are in the room are in exactly the same positions as the objects in the museum. But it's a video arcade, so it looks different. But the room shape, the spatial layout, everything is identical. It's just got a different skin on it, so to speak, for video gamers.
对于那些在生活不同领域寻找新奇体验的人来说，这可能是一个解决方案。为了更好地理解这个问题，Anne Cleary，这位来自科罗拉多州立大学的优秀研究者，开发了一种绝妙的研究方法。她想知道这是否与既视感（déjà vu）有关。为了测试这个，她使用虚拟现实技术。在虚拟现实中，可以创建环境并在特定位置放置物体。她设计了一些虚拟环境，其中物体在特定位置放置。例如，一个模拟的博物馆。人们可以被动地观看录像或主动地在这些空间中导航。接着，她让他们进入另一个场景，比如一个视频游戏厅。而参与者不知道的是，游戏厅房间里的物品布局和博物馆里的完全一样。虽然看起来不同，因为它是一个游戏厅，但房间的形状、空间布局等等都是相同的，只是“外观”变了，对游戏玩家来说套上了不同的“皮肤”。
So what happens is people are much more likely, very likely, to produce a deja vu sensation when they're in these places, these virtual environments that look very much like where they've been, but they're mismatching in some critical way. So it's like you've got enough to trigger the strong sets of familiarity, but the mismatch is suppressing recollection. And so that seems to be a crucial part of why you get this uncanny feeling of remembering is the strong familiarity you get. And by the way, I've watched these movies and I cannot for the life of me see that the museum is the same as the arcade. It just feels so different cognitively. But I can imagine being like if I really did it immersively having that sense of familiarity. So you're really pitting these things in opposition to each other. So what likely happens with deja vu is something uncanny that triggers a little bit of memory retrieval or a strong fluency, but then there's a mismatch that suppresses it and prevents a context from coming up. I'd like to talk about the relationship between memory and mental health for the following reason.
所以，当人们处于这些虚拟环境中时，他们更有可能甚至非常有可能产生似曾相识的感觉。这些地方看起来与他们去过的地方非常相似，但在某些关键方面不太一致。就像是这种相似性足以触发强烈的熟悉感，但不匹配的部分又压制了记忆的回忆。这似乎是为什么我们会有这种奇异的记忆感觉的关键原因，因为你获得了强烈的熟悉感。顺便说一下，我看过这些电影，实在看不出博物馆和电子游戏厅是相同的地方，它们的认知感觉非常不同。但我可以想象，如果我真的完全沉浸其中，可能会产生那种熟悉感。所以，这实际上是把这些东西放在彼此对立的位置上。关于似曾相识的现象，很可能是引发了一点记忆检索或强烈的流畅感，但然后有一个不匹配的地方压制了它，防止了特定语境的出现。接下来，我想讨论记忆与心理健康之间的关系，原因如下。
I'm very struck by the fact that in experiments such as the work that Carl Diceroff, who was actually the first guest on this podcast, Brilliant Neuroengineer, of course, and psychiatrist, described him which he's talking to a patient who's depressed. This patient has a stimulator for the vagus nerve that can crank up stimulation of the vagus nerve and essentially the narrative goes from this patient, I believe it was a woman in this case, talking about being suicidally depressed. She can't anticipate doing anything of any interest or excitement or increasing vagal stimulation, which by the way, folks does not just calm people down. Vagal stimulation actually creates a lot of alertness. So this is a vast misconception out there that vagal stimulation is all about calming. In any case, as the vagal stimulation goes up, her narrative literally changes in real time to, yeah, I could see myself going out and applying for a job. I'm kind of excited about the future, et cetera. So complete transformation of one's outlook, but also in some instances, memory of prior events. So how we cast prior events is so interesting.
我对一些实验非常感兴趣，比如卡尔·迪塞罗夫（Carl Diceroff）的工作。他是这个播客的第一位嘉宾，一位杰出的神经工程师和精神科医生。在他描述的一次实验中，他与一位抑郁患者交谈。这位患者装有一台能够增强迷走神经刺激的装置。一开始，这位女性患者诉说她的抑郁症状非常严重，甚至有自杀倾向。她无法想象自己对任何事情感兴趣或感到兴奋。然而，通过增强迷走神经的刺激——顺便说一句，这不仅仅是让人冷静下来，事实上，迷走神经的刺激还能提高警觉性。外界关于迷走神经刺激仅用于平静心情的看法实际上是一个很大的误解。随着迷走神经刺激的增强，这位女性的叙述在实时中发生了改变。她开始说自己可以想象去找工作，对未来感到有些兴奋等。她的整个观点发生了彻底的改变，并且在某些情况下，对过去事件的记忆也随之改变。我们如何看待过去的事件是非常有趣的。
And the bridge I'd like to build right now conceptually is that there are two papers that intrigue me. One is a paper from Lombarto Mafais Lab in Pisa, which had a paradigm for exploring learned helplessness in rodents, which is sort of a model for depression, how long a rodent is willing to swim in water to save its life, right, before it gives up. And there's a learned helplessness that eventually arrives these yes or not kind experiments. But at some point, they give up and then they've essentially learned they're helpless. And of course, they save the animal before it dies. But these animals, given a essentially an SSRI, like Prozac, can restore some sense of hope, meaning they'll swim longer after having learned to be helpless. Is it recovery of depression? We don't know. But in humans, you see some of the same thing when SSRI's have been effective and they're not always effective. You also see this in some of the psilocybin trials where people have done the psilocybin therapies. We got to talk about that in the correct context.
这段文字的意思是，作者目前对两篇论文感兴趣。第一篇来自比萨的Lombarto Mafai实验室，探讨了一种在啮齿动物身上研究习得性无助的实验模式，这种模式可以用来模拟抑郁症。实验中，研究人员观察啮齿动物在水中为了生存而游泳的时间，以判断它何时会放弃。当这些动物最终放弃时，就相当于它们学会了“无助感”。当然，实验是在动物濒临死亡前就将其救起。不久之后，给予类似百忧解这样的选择性5-羟色胺再摄取抑制剂（SSRI）后，这些动物能够恢复一些希望感，会游更长时间。至于这是否真正意味着恢复了抑郁症，还不确定。在人类实验中，也观察到类似的现象：有时SSRI能有效，但并非总是如此。此外，在一些裸盖菇素（psilocybin）试验中，人们在使用该疗法后也有类似表现。关于这一点，需要在正确的背景下加以讨论。
And now all of a sudden people have this completely different emotional version of the same events. Like, yep, a bunch of terrible things happened or with the MDMA trials for PTSD controversial right now, FDA didn't approve it. But a good number of patients described saying, yeah, this really terrible set of things that happened. Those happened. But I accept it and I'm taking the lessons and I'm moving on and then there's maybe even forgiveness, et cetera, et cetera. So to me, this is a shift in memory brought about by a dramatic shift in neuromodulators. SSRI is of course increased serotonin. And it's interesting to me that MDMA, while it increases dopamine, most dramatically increases serotonin. I'm like seven X or more in terms of the now I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs at all. You can blow out the serotonergic system with too much of it. With too much of it. Too much MDA MA. Although the studies on this is interesting because the study that claimed that MDMA did that actually was retracted. Oh, all right. They had inadvertently used methamphetamine.
现在突然之间，人们对同样的事件有了完全不同的情感反应。确实，有一系列糟糕的事情发生了，或者就像目前备受争议的用于创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的MDMA试验一样，美国食品药品监督管理局（FDA）并未批准它。然而，许多患者表示虽然经历了一些非常不好的事情，但他们接受这些经历，从中吸取教训，并继续前进，甚至可能还包括宽恕等等。在我看来，这是由于神经调节物质的显著变化引起的记忆转换。选择性5-羟色胺再摄取抑制剂（SSRI）自然会增加血清素，而有趣的是，虽然MDMA可以增加多巴胺，但它最显著地增加了血清素，可能高达7倍或者更多。当然，我并不是建议任何人使用这些药物，过度使用可能会损害5-羟色胺系统。尽管对MDMA的研究很有趣，因为声称MDMA会导致这种情况的研究实际上已被撤回了。他们无意中使用了甲基苯丙胺。
Oh, geez. Keep in mind folks that MDMA is methylene-dioxymethamphetamine. So I'm not suggesting anyone do these drugs. I'm using this as a conceptual template. Yeah, I mean, this is abuse we're talking about. Yeah, right, right, right. I mean, so in clinical trials, it's clearly been shown both for SSRI's as well as for psilocybin. These are still emerging clinical trials and MDMA that in a significant percentage of individuals, especially when combined with therapy, people can now feel differently about the same memory. So feeling different about the same memory and feeling different about, therefore, the sense of possibility going forward. This to me is incredible. And it speaks to the fact that much of depression, the lack of positive anticipation about the future, et cetera, is based on memories about failures of past or harms of past.
哦，天哪。大家请注意，MDMA的全名是亚甲二氧基甲基苯丙胺。所以我并不是建议任何人去使用这些药物。我只是把它作为一个概念模板。是的，我的意思是，我们在谈论的实际上是一种滥用。没错，没错。就是说，在临床试验中，很明显地表明，无论是对于SSRI（选择性5-羟色胺再摄取抑制剂）还是对于裸盖菇素，这些依然是新兴的临床试验，和MDMA在某些情况下，尤其是与治疗结合时，在相当比例的个体中，人们可以对相同的记忆产生不同的感觉。因此，不同地感受相同的记忆，并因此对未来的可能性产生不同的预期。这对我来说是令人难以置信的。它揭示了一个事实：抑郁症、对未来缺乏积极期待等，很大程度上是基于对过去失败或伤害的记忆。
Yeah, rumination, basically. Right. So what is the relationship between the serotonin system and memory? Or what is the relationship more broadly of these neuromodulatory systems or the vagal system that can create these incredible reversals of what we previously thought of as terrible as like manageable. And therefore, we're willing to lean into life again. What is that? Again, serotonin is like a neuromodulator. It enhances plasticity. And what I mean by that is that if you have like a transient learning event, you will get a change in the connections between neurons that were active during that event and super interesting work right now going on in behavioral time scale plasticity and all that stuff.
是的，主要是反思。对吧。那么，血清素系统和记忆之间有什么关系？或者更广泛地说，这些神经调节系统或者迷走神经系统之间的关系是什么，这些系统能够让我们之前认为糟糕的状况变成可控的，从而让我们愿意重新投入生活？那是什么呢？再说一次，血清素就像一种神经调节物质。它能增强可塑性。我的意思是，如果你有一个短暂的学习事件，就会在当时活跃的神经元之间的连接中产生变化。目前在行为时间尺度可塑性和其他相关领域，有一些非常有趣的研究正在进行。
So it's not just cells of wire together, it's more interesting actually, or fire together, wire together. It's more interesting. But those changes can often be transient and what people so like Eric Candel, for instance, one who studied serotonin in particular and emphasized this, but basically many neuromodulators, if you give a little bath, these bathees neurons in serotonin or other neuromodulators, you stabilize that plasticity and that allows, you know, increases in receptor density between these neurons that allow them to communicate more effectively. Now you can get weakening in LTD too, we'll get into that, but serotonin definitely promotes plasticity, right? And so one of the things I talk about in my book is that memories are, I mean, we all have plasticity. As I said, retrieving a memory can allow us to change the memory in certain ways and it can change, when you get into the details of it, it comes complicated in interesting ways. But the short version is you can change it.
这不仅仅是线状细胞的结合，其实更有趣的是，"一起激活，就会连接"。但这些变化往往是短暂的，比如研究5-羟色胺的埃里克·坎德尔等人强调这一点，实际上如果让神经递质如5-羟色胺浸润神经元，就能稳定这种可塑性，并增加这些神经元之间的受体密度，使它们能够更高效地交流。当然，我们也会讨论到长期压抑（LTD）中的削弱作用，但5-羟色胺确实促进了可塑性。我在书中谈到，我们都有这种可塑性。正如我所说，回忆记忆能够让我们以某种方式改变它，而具体细节可能会变得复杂而有趣。但简单来说，就是记忆是可以被改变的。
We get a small part of what happened when we remember, but there's that feeling of the context. There's that emotional response that we have that's both kind of a basic raw motivational, my heart's racing or something like that. That's why people often say, well, emotional memories are stored in the body. Well, it's just part of the memory. It's a retrieval cue, so to speak, and it can be also be part of the retrieved experience. But you have all of these factors going on that are part of this emotional memory. And then you have a story that you create, a narrative that you use to make sense of it, and that affects all these physiological systems too, right? So every time I talk in the book about an example of how group therapy is so powerful, as a means of memory updating social interactions, where it's like people can change the narrative. They say, well, I gave you this narrative about how I'm loud, and you told me, well, I remember hanging out with you, and you weren't loud then, and you're not loud now. And so now I can update these memories maybe. By Vicious.
当我们回忆往事时，我们只得到了一小部分发生过的事情，但会感受到当时的环境和情感反应。这种情感反应可能是基本的、本能的，比如心跳加速。因此，人们常说情感记忆储存在身体里。其实，这只是记忆的一部分，是一种“检索提示”，也是检索体验的一部分。但情感记忆中涉及多种因素，而我们也会通过创建一个故事或叙述来理解这些记忆，这也会影响到身体的生理系统。
比如在书中提到的一个例子，团体治疗非常有效，因为它能够通过社会互动来更新记忆。通过这样的互动，人们可以改变自己的叙述。例如，一个人可能总是说自己很吵闹，而另一个人则说：“我记得和你在一起的时候，你并不吵闹，现在你也不吵闹。”这样一来，原有的记忆可能就会得到更新。
Yeah, exactly. I could reframe it, right? And these framing effects are huge. So in theory, people can take and experience those traumatic, and many people do, and say, this made me who I am, and I'm happy with who I am now, even though it's a horrible thing. I'm stronger for it, or I'm a survivor, or, you know, I couldn't have done anything about it, and it's not my fault. Or you can have these narratives of shame, and so forth, and guilt, and anger, and so forth. I'm not judging anybody's reaction to trauma, but what I am saying is that's part of the emotional response. It's part of the memory that people construct. The problem is that with traumatic memories when they do stick, it's hard to change because there's so much plasticity driven by the neuromodulators during that event.
是的，完全正确。我可以重新解读对吧？这种重新解读的效果很大。在理论上，人们可以经历那些创伤，实际上很多人确实这样做，然后说，这使我成就了现在的自己，我对现在的自己很满意，即使那是一件可怕的事情。因为这个经历，我变得更坚强，或者我是一名幸存者，又或者我当时对此无能为力，这不是我的错。也有人会产生羞愧、内疚和愤怒等情绪。我并不是在评判任何人对创伤的反应，只是想说这是情感反应的一部分，是人们构建的记忆的一部分。但问题在于，一旦创伤记忆被固化，由于在那个事件中有大量神经调节的影响，改变这些记忆会很困难。
With PTSD, and we could talk about that as a whole, another thing, but just let's take traumatic memories. It's so intense, and the amygdala response drives the physiology, in many cases, of that arousal, which makes you feel like this immediacy of it, right? And in fact, sleep and nightmares, but anyway, stay out of PTSD for a while, because that's a whole other thing. But those memories are very resistant because of that intensity, and often the more you retrieve them, we re-traumatize ourselves. So reframing in a cognitive therapy sense is very difficult, because they feel this, and their brain is telling them, I'm under threat, or I'm ashamed because they've reinforced this narrative so many times, and you can work through the logic, but sometimes you need to create some big prediction error to generate some error-driven learning, which something we can talk about, or you need some kind of help.
患有创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的人，我们可以整个讨论这个问题，不过现在只谈创伤记忆。这些记忆非常强烈，杏仁核的反应在许多情况下推动生理上的反应，让你感到事件的迫切性，比如睡眠和噩梦等。但是暂时先不谈PTSD，那又是一个大话题。这些记忆由于其强烈的性质而非常顽固，而且往往每次回忆它们，我们都在重新伤害自己。所以在认知治疗中重新框定这些记忆是非常困难的，因为当事人感受到威胁，或者因为他们强化了这些叙述太多次，而感到羞愧。虽然可以通过逻辑工作处理这些问题，但有时需要通过制造一个重大的预测误差来引发错误驱动的学习，这是我们可以讨论的内容，或者需要某种帮助。
So if you're driving neuromodulatory systems, like that theoretically could give you a broader window of plasticity, in fact, actually we're trying Prozac on my dog. And one of the things that I've seen is very anxious, and it's to the point where she'll not exercise, even though she's a very active dog, she'll stop on a walk if she hears a garbage truck anywhere. And so it's a very low dose, and I'm not necessarily saying go drug your dogs, but I'm just saying that the story that I've heard is that you get this period of plasticity where you can kind of rewrite some of these behavioral patterns and make them more open to training and so forth. And so it doesn't even have to be a permanent thing, right? And I think a lot of these things like you're talking about learned helplessness studies probably transient effects of not being on it for years or something, but it's not very effective in terms of SSRIs, but psilocybin and psychedelics have shown a lot of promises being bigger effects, right? And these produce massive plasticity. There's two things I think that are really interesting about it. By the way, Davis, I will just say I'm biased, but it's one of the top three places in the world for learning and memory research. So next door, David Olson, it turns out is studying psychedelic effects on plasticity. And so he really emphasizes that there's these massive neurotrophic factors, BDNF, like all these factors that are going on, they're promoting plasticity. And for people who've taken them, that's what they report is that there's this period of integration afterwards where your brain's just like, you know, you can feel it. Everything's changed. You change. Yeah. You change. If the integration is guided properly, one thing that I do want to make sure I highlight, and it's not just for public safety reasons, although that as well, is that people are so intrigued by the idea of quote unquote, opening plasticity. Plasticity is just an opportunity for learning new contingencies. Yeah. Right. Just taking psychedelics is an experience, but certainly, but the learning of new contingencies occurs in the integration phase as well as within the session. That's why the clinical trials that showed some efficacy for some people were guided intensely by therapists. The mere act of having plasticity, plasticity is an opportunity for learning. It's not the actual learning. Right. It opens up like significant opportunities for reshaping.
所以，如果你影响神经调节系统，理论上可能会提供一个更广的可塑性窗口。事实上，我正在给我的狗试用百忧解（Prozac）。我注意到她很焦虑，甚至到了一个地步——即便她是一只很活跃的狗，如果听到任何垃圾车的声音，她在散步时也会停下来。所以我给她的剂量很低，我并不是建议大家都给狗吃药，只是说我听说这样可以获得一个塑性期，在这期间可以重新塑造一些行为模式，让它们更容易接受训练等。而且这种情况不一定是永久的。我认为很多研究表明的所谓习得性无助，可能是暂时的影响，而不是靠年复一年不间断的药物治疗。尽管从长期来看，选择性5-羟色胺再摄取抑制剂（SSRIs）的效果并不是很好，但迷幻药和致幻剂显示出很大的潜力，能够产生巨大的可塑性。我觉得这其中有两点特别有趣。顺便提一下，戴维斯，我可能有些偏袒，但我们这里是世界顶级的学习和记忆研究地之一。隔壁的David Olson正在研究迷幻药对可塑性的影响。他特别强调这些巨大的神经营养因子，如脑源性神经营养因子（BDNF），以及所有促进可塑性的因素。对于那些服用过的人，他们报告说在之后有一个整合期，感觉大脑就像一切都变了，你变了。如果整合能被正确引导的话，有一点我必须强调，不仅仅是因为公共安全原因，人们对“开启可塑性”这一概念非常感兴趣。可塑性实际上是学习新事情的一个机会，仅仅服用迷幻药只是一次体验，而真正的新习惯和思维模式的学习是在整合期以及体验过程中发生的。这也就是为什么某些人有效的临床试验是由疗师进行密集指导的。拥有可塑性仅仅是学习的一个机会，并不是学习的本身。它提供了重新塑造的重大机遇。
But the second part of it, which maybe I think is really interesting is there is also a dissociative element of these drugs. So ketamine isn't a psychedelic, but I think there are some interesting plasticity effects and definitely produces this dissociative element too. And with psychedelics, there's often a major perspective shift. And perspective is hugely important for memory because a lot of our sense of the emotional impact of our memory is based on a perspective that we adopt when we remember. And research has shown that you can take the same encoding event, meaning like I tell you, story, let's just take a very simple thing. I give you a story and it's like, I tell you now viewed from the perspective of someone else and you're trying to remember it. You can remember things that you didn't experience. Remember the first time around. Changing your perspective can literally change what you remember. It can also change the narrative that you produce.
但我认为其中有趣的部分是，这些药物还有一个解离的成分。虽然氯胺酮不是一种迷幻药，但我认为它有一些有趣的可塑性效果，并且确实也会产生这种解离的特征。而在使用迷幻药的过程中，通常会有一个重大的视角转变。视角对于记忆非常重要，因为我们对记忆的情感影响很大程度上是基于我们在回忆时采用的视角。研究表明，你可以重新审视同一个事件，比如我给你讲一个故事，然后让你从另一个人的角度来看待。当你试图记住它时，你可能会记住一些第一次没有注意到的细节。改变视角确实可以改变你记住的内容，也可以改变你对事件的叙述。
So now let's say you pull up this traumatic memory, but you're viewing it from the outside and you're feeling your hearts racing, your eyes are dilating, these crazy effects are psychedelic. But you're seeing it and it's not you. There's some deeper self here feeling whether it's true or you have a sense of agency in there. Yeah. Some of the psychedelics, I've never tried this one, but there are interesting studies of Ibogaine, Iboga, where the universal experiences I understand is that it's 22 hours long. It's actually cardiovascular risk. There's some things that need to be offset there, so don't run out and do this, folks. But people, I'm told, get a high definition movie of specific events in their life that actually happened only when they close their eyes. So no hallucinating with eyes open. Interesting. And then they have agency within those movies. And once they exact the change they wanted to have, it rotates like a cube. Very interesting, perhaps to a memory researcher why this would be.
现在，假设你回忆起一段创伤性的记忆，但你是从外部视角观看它的。此时你感到心跳加速、瞳孔放大，这种奇异的感觉就像迷幻效果。但你在看着这一切，而这不完全是你自己。这里有一个更深层的自我在感知这是真实的，还是你在其中有主动权。是的。我没有尝试过这一类迷幻剂，但是关于伊波加因（Ibogaine，伊波加）的研究很有趣。我的理解是，它的体验一般持续22小时，但有心血管风险，所以大家千万别随便尝试。但据说使用者在闭上眼睛时能够看到自己生命中特定事件的高清“电影”，这些事件确实发生过，并非睁眼时的幻觉。而且他们在这些“电影”中能有主动权。一旦他们实现了自己期望的改变，这些记忆就像一个立方体一样旋转。对于研究记忆的人来说，这种现象非常有趣，不知道为什么会这样。
And then they get another event of past where they have agency in that event. Incredible. It's, I mean, there's so much that we don't know. And I think it's, you know, and I will say that some of the psychedelic stuff is overhyped and there's not some of the science is quite bad in that field right now. Yeah. The number of papers are being retracted now. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that some of the concerns they had in the FDA, I have to take issue with. But what I will say is that you have a drug that dramatically increases plasticity, but it changes dramatically the mental context that you have when you pull up the memory. So you have a real opportunity for memory updating. Now, there's a phenomenon in the animal literature called re-consolidation, where essentially the act of retrieving a memory opens it up to requiring some kinds of neuromodulae. tweet from some azimuth by taking a picture of renallicks. I think it's very easy for us to put bystander within me writing the memory Guang Pen drill letter and I'm trying to say that I've had so many heated in combination with words, if someone to remove them and make the stuff have nothing to think of, how do you express it.
然后，他们能够在一个过去的事件中拥有主导权。这太不可思议了。我是说，有太多我们不知道的东西。我觉得，现在有些关于迷幻药的说法被夸大了，而且在这个领域的部分科学研究相当糟糕。确实，有一些论文现在被撤回了。我认为FDA的一些担忧是值得商榷的。但我想说的是，有一种药物可以显著提高大脑的可塑性，同时在你回忆记忆的时候，极大地改变你的心智环境。因此，这是一个真实的机会去更新记忆。在动物实验中有一个现象叫做重新巩固，基本上是说，提取记忆的行为会让记忆变得需要一些神经调节。在这种情况下，我们有很大的机会重塑我们的记忆逻辑。我意识到如果有人帮我消除这些烦恼，我实际上没什么可想的，这就是我要表达的意思。
But I'm testing for guests, and it's going to be Lee's email and reps, Ideally. context, and I can dramatically, I can access those neurons, but dramatically reshape the context and dramatically reshape the narrative. I've created the opportunity for massive change. And I don't know if that's true, but it sure makes sense to me that that's the case. Now having said that, if you and me share our traumatic elements or childhood, I'm sure we can go out and do this for quite a few hours, right? That in and of itself will also produce some change in our memories.
翻译为中文：但是我正在为客人进行测试，最好使用李的电子邮件和代表们，理想状态下。我可以极大地访问那些神经元，极大地改变背景和叙述。我已经创造了大幅度改变的机会。我不确定这是否是真的，但对我来说，这听起来很有道理。话虽如此，如果你我分享我们经历过的创伤性事件或童年故事，我们肯定可以聊上好几个小时，对吧？这本身也会对我们的记忆产生一些改变。
It's very powerful. And I saw this in the clinic where I was doing group therapy with Vietnam vets. And I'm like, I'm a total fraud. I'm like, I don't know, 27 years old, 28 years old. And I'm like in with these like, you know, Vietnam vets in their fifties who've really seen stuff, you know, and they live in combat zones now in Chicago. And what I realized was everyone was telling their story, but they're hearing reflections of their story for me, but also from other members of the group who they can relate to that are different from their narrative. And now all of a sudden, what happens is the memory is no longer theirs. It's a collective memory that's shared by all these people because the memory now incorporates elements of their reactions as well.
这段话翻译成中文是：
这实在是太有力量了。我在诊所做小组治疗时看到了这一点，当时我在和越战老兵们一起工作。我心里想，我完全是在装模作样，我才27、28岁，而这些老兵已经五十多岁了，他们经历过真正的生死考验，现在却在芝加哥这样的"战区"生活。我意识到，虽然每个人都在讲述自己的故事，但他们不仅从我这里听到对自己故事的反思，也从其他可以与之产生共鸣的团队成员那里听到了与自己不同的叙述。突然之间，这些记忆不再是他们自己的，而是所有这些人共享的集体记忆，因为这些记忆现在也包含了他们各自的反应。
It allows people to remember it in a new context, right? And I mean, and we can just take a much more watered down version of this where how many times have you had a terrible experience and it became a great story. I basically say that there's no point in having a bad experience in life if you don't get a great story out of it, right? So I talk in the book about it near death experience. I had paddle board again as everything about this was stupid. I can say to you pictures of it and you're like, oh my God, what was he thinking? I've made foolish errors in outdoor adventures in my past where afterwards I thought that was a really dumb move to even go to that location to dive, let alone what we did when we did there.
这让人们能够在新的背景下记住它，对吧？我的意思是，我们可以用一个更简单的版本来说明这个问题。比如说，有多少次你经历了糟糕的事情，但最终变成了一个很棒的故事。我基本上认为，如果在生活中经历了不好的事情，却没有得到一个精彩的故事，那是没有意义的，对吧？在书中，我谈到了我一次濒临死亡的经历。当时我在冲浪板上，一切都很愚蠢。我可以给你看一些照片，你肯定会觉得：“天哪，他当时在想什么？” 过去，我在户外探险时犯过愚蠢的错误，事后我会觉得，去那个地方潜水真是个愚蠢的决定，更不用说我们在那里做的事了。
Like, you know, I mean, some of the stupid stuff that we did, even as kids like bridge jumps and without testing water depth, I mean, stupid, stupid stuff that I don't recommend anyone repeat. But you're right, the surviving stories are you carry those forward. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. The problem is the other stories we can talk about, people who are paralyzed dead, et cetera, those stories exist too. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I mean, to be clear, it's like I felt horrible during that experience and it was one of the most immediately fear-inducing experiences I've had.
翻译： 就像，你知道，我的意思是，我们做过的一些蠢事，即使是在我们还是孩子的时候，比如跳桥却不测试水的深度，这种蠢得无以复加的事情，我不建议任何人去重复。但你说得对，那些我们活下来后讲述的故事就是我们带入未来的东西。是的，是的，没错，没错。问题是还有其他故事，比如那些我们谈到的，导致瘫痪、死亡等等的故事，这些也是存在的。是的，是的。所以，我的意思是，明确来说，那段经历让我感觉很糟糕，那是我经历过的最即时引发恐惧的经历之一。
But later me and Randy O'Reilly at Computational Neuroscience were friends. We both did the stupid thing together. We would tell the story tag team it and we told it to students and friends and so forth. And it just became funny. And so each time we told it, it just became kind of funnier and funnier and you start to embellish things and so forth. And so that change of perspective was really drawn out by sharing and seeing people laugh and see people like, what were you thinking? You're such a smart person and you did this and it becomes part of the narrative.
后来，我和计算神经科学领域的兰迪·奥赖利成为了朋友。我们一起做了一件很蠢的事情。我们总是一起讲这个故事，给学生和朋友们讲，渐渐地这个故事变得非常有趣。每次讲述的时候，总是会变得更加幽默，还会添油加醋一些细节。通过分享这个故事，看着大家的笑声，我们的视角开始有所改变。人们会想：“你是个聪明人，怎么会做这样的事情？”这件事情也就成为了我们共同的记忆。
And keep in mind, there are people who do this that they say like, I've had a really traumatic experience, but I've learned from it. I've had a horrible, emotionally abusive relationship, but I've learned from it, right? And I don't mean to trivialize anybody's experience who didn't have that thing and they're just traumatized by it and they carry it with them. But what I am saying is that the memory, so to speak, I think in neuroscience right now there's a big hot topic about engrams as if a bunch of neurons is the memory. But every time we have a memory, we're painting a new picture. We're creating a new novel.
请记住，有些人经历了这样的事情，他们会说：“我经历过非常痛苦的事情，但我从中学到了。我经历过糟糕、情感虐待的关系，但我从中成长了。” 我的意思并不是要轻视那些没有得到这种体验，只是因此受到了创伤并一直携带着痛苦的人。但我想说的是，从神经科学的角度来看，记忆很可能不是固定不变的，现在有个热门话题是关于“记忆痕迹”（engrams）的研究，好像一群神经元就是记忆一样。但实际上，每当我们回忆一段记忆时，我们就在重新绘制一幅新的画面，创造一个新的故事。
Well, and I think this is where people have to be very careful not to cowboy post-traumatic stress disorder treatment in a way that allows the narrative to make it worse because people previous guest on this podcast has this notion of indescribing this of story fondling where people can go further and further into the description of how terrible something is reinforced by others and then the memory changes to become much worse than either the real events were or just simply worse within their body and mind and then they have to live that forward. So it can go both ways, which is really points to the key, which is to do this with really trained professionals. Yeah, yeah.
好的，我认为这就是为什么人们在处理创伤后应激障碍治疗时需要非常小心，不能随便进行，因为这可能会让情况变得更糟。在这个播客中，之前的嘉宾提出了一个概念，叫做“故事抚摸”，即有人会不断深入描述事情有多糟糕，并被他人强化，导致记忆变得比实际事件更糟，或者在他们的身体和心灵中变得更糟，然后他们不得不承受这种影响。因此，这个过程可能会有两种结果，所以关键是要与真正专业的治疗人员一起进行。是的，是的。
And it's all about like, because you can re-traumatize yourself. And this is also why rumination is so bad in depression is because you recall a negative memory and that gets you in a negative mood because you pull up the context. And then that makes it easier to recall more negative memories. And then every time you recall them, now they're getting more power because they're associated with these negative moods. So recollection is really a double-age blade.
这段话的中文翻译可以是：
这一切都源于这样的原因：你可能会再次让自己受到创伤。这也是为什么在抑郁症中，反复思考是非常有害的。因为你会回忆起一个消极的记忆，然后因此感到情绪低落，因为你触及了相关的情境。这样一来，你就更容易回想起更多消极的记忆。而每次你回忆这些消极记忆时，它们就会因为与消极情绪联系在一起而变得更加强大。所以，回忆真的是一把双刃剑。
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at like, so if you take something like reminiscent or nostalgia, so the original term nostalgia, I credit Felipe DeBregard for Tohiza philosopher neuroscientist, he told me that nostalgia used to be a term for a disease that was coined by a Swiss physician. And he used it to talk about a kind of post-traumatic experience that soldiers had, where they would get so wistful about their home that it just made them miserable in the places that they were at. It's been referred to as the pain of an old wound.
哦，好的。就是说，看看像"回忆"或"怀旧"这样的词，怀旧这个词原本是由一位瑞士医生创造出来的，他用它来描述一种创伤后体验。比如，当士兵们非常思念家乡时，这种情感会让他们在所处的地方感到非常痛苦。哲学与神经科学家Felipe DeBregard告诉我，怀旧曾经被认为是一种疾病。它被形容为旧伤的痛苦。
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I didn't say that someone else. Yeah. Yeah. And so it can, the research shows it can have very positive effects on mental health, right? And it can have positive effects on mental health if you use that as a way of saying, hey, this is just a great thing that's happened. I'm grateful for that. But it can become toxic if you're like, my life used to be so great and now it's terrible. Even if it's positive reminiscence, if you come into it with the wrong attributions, it can become negative, a toxic and it can contaminate your present, right? I mean, the past has got good and it's got bad and it's just like the present has got good and it's got bad in it. And it's really all about what are the narratives you're constructing for it in many ways. And that plays a big part in the dynamic malleable, constantly shape-shifting nature of memory. Incredible.
是的，是的，确实如此。我没有说，是别人说的。是的，是的。研究表明，它确实对心理健康有非常积极的影响，对吧？如果你把它作为一种方式来说“嘿，这真是一件好事，我对此心存感激”，那么它就能对心理健康产生积极影响。但如果你觉得“过去我的生活那么美好，现在却变得糟糕”，即使是积极的回忆，当你用错误的归因来看待时，也可能变得消极，具有毒性，并影响你现在的生活。我的意思是，过去有好有坏，就像现在一样，也有好有坏。很多时候，这都与您为其构建的叙述有关。这也是记忆的动态性、可塑性以及不断变化特性中很重要的一部分，真是令人难以置信。
I want to make sure that we talk about something at first glance very different than all of this. But it's land squarely in the conversation we've had until now, which is your love for and your participation in rock and roll. You have a band, right? Pavlovas Dogs. Yep. Actually, a couple of bands now, think, please.
我想确保我们讨论一个乍一看与这些内容非常不同的话题。但其实，它与我们之前的谈话密切相关，那就是你对摇滚乐的热爱和你的参与。你有一个乐队，对吧？叫Pavlovas Dogs。是的。实际上，现在你有好几个乐队，对吧？
Okay. What are the other ones called? Well, so Pavlovas Dogs, also versus like a band of neuroscientists and psychologists, neuroscientists who met actually, most of us met at a memory meeting, actually. And so we get together at conferences and we'll rent out a club and we'll play basically Brad calls it skinny Thai music. It's like, is it original music or covers? Covers.
好的，那其他的叫什么？嗯，所以 "Pavlovas Dogs"（巴甫洛夫的狗）这个乐队成员主要是一些神经科学家和心理学家。其实我们大多数是在一个关于记忆的会议上认识的。然后我们会在开会期间聚在一起，租一个俱乐部，演奏音乐。Brad 称这种音乐为“瘦领带音乐”。那是原创音乐还是翻唱的呢？是翻唱的。
That one's a cover band. Covers, okay. And so we'll play like the Ramones, the Clash, Gang of Four. It's a lot of, we added Blondie and. She's still touring.
那支是翻唱乐队，就是翻唱别人的歌。我们会演奏像Ramones、The Clash、Gang of Four这些乐队的歌，还加了Blondie。她还在巡演呢。
Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah, a friend of mine went on tour with her. She looks great too. Surfboard was on tour with Blondie. Oh, so I know them.
是的，她很了不起。我有个朋友和她一起去巡演了。她看起来也很棒。Surfboard乐队曾经和Blondie一起巡演。哦，那我认识他们。
Oh, that's a friend of yours. Danny from Surfboard. No, yeah, the great band and she toured with Blondie. Blondie's amazing. She's still super vivacious as a surfboard and Danny. What instrument do you play? I play guitar and I also do vocals. Lead vocals?
哦，那是你的一个朋友。是来自乐队Surfboard的Danny吗？是的，那个很棒的乐队，她还和Blondie一起巡演过。Blondie真是太棒了。她依然活力十足，就像冲浪板和Danny一样。你演奏什么乐器？我弹吉他，也唱歌。主唱吗？
Yes, or yeah. And if you're reluctant, because sometimes it's talking or being off-key, but yeah. Can people find links to any Pavlov dog live shows or recordings online? I think we have some recordings on YouTube and if you look on our Facebook page, maybe our Instagram too, we have live recordings.
是的，或嗯。如果你有些犹豫，因为有时候我们在聊天或走调，但没关系。大家能在网上找到帕夫洛夫狗的现场演出或录音吗？我想我们在 YouTube 上有一些录音，如果你看看我们的 Facebook 页面，也许还有 Instagram，上面也有现场录音。
Okay. And you have a show coming up. We'll put a link to that. It's because people will listen to this long after that, presumably. That's coming up in Chicago on October. I think it's the seventh? Is it a month? It's the Monday? We'll put a link to that. Sorry, I was. But because they can't make it because most of us aren't in Chicago, including me, unfortunately, we'll keep an eye out for Pavlov's dogs. I love that you play music and I just have, for sake of time, one question about your love for rock and roll and playing music. When you're playing rock and roll live, are you thinking about anything else? Sometimes and that's when I suck. Actually, you know, one hack that I came up with, because it's like with the cover band, we practice like we cram. It's the worst thing. It's not space learning. It's like we go through the songs and we keep adding and taking away songs, but it's like we'll cram for like, I don't know, about eight hours of practices over three days or something.
好的，你有一个即将举行的演出。我们会把链接附上，因为许多人可能会在演出结束后再来听这段内容。这个演出将在十月的某个星期一于芝加哥举行，我记得是七号？我们会把链接放上去。很遗憾的是，因为我们大多数人，包括我自己，都不在芝加哥，所以没法去看。不过，要留意一下Pavlov's dogs乐队。我很喜欢你们的音乐，因为时间关系，我就问一个关于你对摇滚乐的热爱的简单问题。当你现场演奏摇滚乐时，你会考虑别的事情吗？有时候会，这时候我的表现就比较糟糕。其实我找到一个小窍门。因为我们是翻唱乐队，所以通常是集中练习——这是最糟糕的方式。我们不是分段学习，而是一次排练很多，我们会不停地增减曲目，大概在三天内集中练习八小时左右。
And so it's, for me, it's like a constant memory thing because my brain doesn't want to play covers, wants to play the songs that I've written. And so there's always this very thing. And then I get nervous. I get really nervous. It's so I move a lot and then I see friends and that kills me because then I started thinking, what are they thinking? And so I started, last show I did with Pavlov's Dogs, I wore sunglasses and it was great. It was because then I wasn't attuned to them. And I was, it just goes back to what we're talking about, kind of with the camera and stuff, I was feeling it. And I was thinking, I was not, I was in the flow in the zone and feeling it and doing it and not thinking about it.
对我来说，这一直是一种记忆上的挑战，因为我的大脑不喜欢弹别人写的歌曲，更想弹我自己创作的曲子。于是，总有这种矛盾存在，我就会感到紧张，非常紧张。每次我会动来动去，看到朋友们也让我感到很困扰，因为我会开始想他们在怎么看我。于是，上次我和Pavlov's Dogs一起演出时，我戴上了太阳镜，效果很好。那样一来，我就不会受到他们的干扰。我就是在享受这个过程，就像我们之前谈论摄像头之类的事情一样，我沉浸其中，感受着音乐，能顺其自然地进行，而不是一直在思考。
And there's a whole interesting literature choking under pressure that actually relates to this idea of like, you know, sometimes having too much cognitive control going on is really bad when you're under stress. And if you know something fairly well, you're going to be better off if you just go into an automatic state. I love that. When I do live shows, I like to have the house lights relatively dim. I don't want to see anybody at first. And then as they get more comfortable, I'm happy to have the house lights come up because you get, I don't play anything. I do live events where I talk about signs. Oh, yeah, where I tell stories about signs and scientists.
这段话的大意是：关于在压力下的表现，有一种有趣的研究表明，过多的认知控制在压力下反而有害。如果你对某件事情已经很熟悉，进入自动状态反而更好。我对此深有体会，当我主持现场演出时，我喜欢把观众席的灯光调暗。开始时我不想看到任何人，但随着他们越来越放松，我乐意慢慢调亮灯光。我不演奏任何音乐，我的现场活动是讲述关于标志和科学家的故事。
Okay, a couple of things are right in the front of my mind. And I'd be remiss if I didn't say them right now. First of all, it's absolutely clear that we need to get you back here for more discussion about memory and learning. There's just so much that we didn't have the opportunity to cover in this conversation. But we most certainly will in a future conversation. We didn't bring up the turkeys of Davis. No, the turn. No, we didn't. And second of all, I want to thank you for writing your book Why We Remember, because it's a fantastic exploration of the modern understanding of memory, still some of the mysteries that remain.
好的，现在我脑子里有几件事情，我要赶快说出来。首先，我们很明显需要请你回来，继续讨论关于记忆和学习的话题。在这次对话中，有太多内容我们没机会讨论，但我们一定会在以后的对话中涉及到。我们没提到戴维斯的火鸡，不，我们没有。其次，我想感谢你写了《我们为何记忆》这本书，因为它对现代记忆理解进行了精彩的探索，同时也触及到了仍然存在的一些神秘之处。
But this is a field that's evolved a lot. And you capture so much of the incredible findings there over the years in a very pleasurable way. So it's a pleasure to read. And then I also want to thank you for coming here today to share with us your understanding about memory. And also your sharing of your experience with ADHD and some of the tools you use, some of the struggles. I think all too often people hear about these, you know, scientists or physicians or people who are authorities on a topic and they don't hear about the challenges they face. And I assure you that a great, great many people will appreciate the fact that you yourself have struggled with certain issues related to attention, but that you've overcome them at least as well to be able to be a functional parent and family man, professor, author, now public educator, dog owner, second time around. And you know, for that, and for a great many other reasons, you've educated us and you've given us a great many practical tools. It's also great to see you as a fellow punk rocker and old friend. And I even let you call me Andy. So thank you.
这绝对是一个已经发展了许多的领域。多年来，你以一种非常愉悦的方式捕捉到了很多不可思议的发现，读起来非常愉快。同时，我也要感谢你今天来这里与我们分享你对记忆的理解，以及你在多动症方面的经验、使用的工具和遇到的困难。我认为，人们往往只听到科学家、医生或者某个领域权威人士的一些成就，却不了解他们面临的挑战。我相信，很多人都会感谢像你这样面对注意力问题并克服困难的人，至少你成功地成为了一名合格的父母、家庭成员、教授、作者、现在的公众教育者以及两度养狗的人。因为这些和许多其他的原因，你教育了我们，并给了我们很多实用的工具。看到你这个老朋友兼朋克摇滚爱好者真是太好了。我甚至让你叫我Andy。所以，谢谢你。
So thanks for coming here today. And please do come back again, Charne. Oh, I'd love to thank you, Andrew. It's been great to be here. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about memory and ADHD with Dr. Charne Ranganath. To learn more about his work and to find a link to his book as well as social media accounts, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.
感谢大家今天来到这里，特别感谢Charne再次光临。哦，我很乐意，谢谢你，Andrew。很高兴来到这里。感谢您参与今天与Dr. Charne Ranganath讨论记忆和多动症的话题。若想了解更多关于他的工作，并找到他书籍的链接以及社交媒体账号，请查看节目说明中的链接。如果您在收听或欣赏这个播客，请订阅我们的YouTube频道。这是支持我们的好方法，且不需要花费任何费用。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple and almost Spotify and Apple. You can leave us up to a five-star review. Please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
此外，请在Spotify和Apple上订阅这个播客。你还可以给我们留下最多五星的评价。请查看在本集开头和过程中提到的赞助商，这也是支持本播客的最佳方式。如果你对我或播客的嘉宾、话题有问题或建议，希望我能在Huberman Lab播客中考虑的内容，请在YouTube的评论区留言。我会阅读所有的评论。对于还不知道的人，我有一本新书即将出版，这是我的第一本书，名为《Protocols，一本关于人体操作的手册》。这本书是我投入五年以上时间创作的，基于超过30年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼到压力控制的各种方案相关内容，涉及专注力和动机等主题。当然，我还提供了这些方案的科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocols book.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. If you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram X, formerly known as Twitter, threads, Facebook and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media channels.
这本书《Protocols：身体操作手册》现在可以在protocolsbook.com上预售。在那里，你可以找到链接到各个销售商的网站，然后选择你最喜欢的购买方式。此外，如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交平台上的账号都是Huberman Lab，比方说Instagram、X（原名Twitter）、Threads、Facebook和LinkedIn。在这些平台上，我会讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些内容与Huberman Lab播客的内容有所重叠，但很多内容是独立的。再次强调，我在所有社交媒体上的用户名都是Huberman Lab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, our neural network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as protocols in the form of brief one to three page PDFs. Those protocol PDFs are on things like neural plasticity and learning, optimizing dopamine, improving your sleep, deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that describes a template routine that includes cardiovascular training and resistance training with sets and reps, all backed by science, and all of which again is completely zero cost.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，值得一试。我们的神经网络通讯是一份每月免费的通讯，包含播客摘要和一些简短的一到三页的PDF协议。这些PDF协议内容涉及神经可塑性与学习、优化多巴胺、改善睡眠、有意的冷暴露、有意的热暴露。我们还有一个基础的健身协议，描述了一套包括心血管训练和阻力训练（包含组数和重复次数）的标准化锻炼方案，所有内容均有科学依据，而且完全免费。
To subscribe, simply go to Huberman Lab.com, go to the menu tab up in the upper right corner, scroll down to newsletter and provide your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Charn Ranganath. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
要订阅，只需访问Huberman Lab.com，点击右上角的菜单选项，向下滚动找到“newsletter”（通讯）一项，并输入您的电子邮件。我需要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。再次感谢您参加今天与Dr. Charn Ranganath的讨论。最后，感谢您对科学的兴趣。