Donald Trump Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast #442

I don't know if you know this, but some people call you a fascist. Yeah, they do. So I figure it's all right to call them a communist. Yeah, they call me a lot worse than I call them. A lot of people listening to this myself included that doesn't think that Kamala is a communist. I believe you have to fight fire with fire.

我不知道你是否知道，有些人叫你法西斯。是的，他们这么叫。我觉得那我也可以叫他们共产主义者。他们骂我的话比我骂他们的还难听。很多听到这番话的人，包括我自己，都不认为卡马拉是共产主义者。我相信以眼还眼以牙还牙。

Politics is a dirty game. It is a dirty game. It's certainly true. How do you win at that game? They suffer from massive Trump derangement syndrome, TDS. And I don't know if they're excurable from their standpoint. I think we would probably have a better world if everybody in Congress took some mushrooms, perhaps. First of all, medical marijuana has been amazing. It's been I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing. The list of clients that went to the island has not been made public. Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it?

政治是一场肮脏的游戏。这确实是一场肮脏的游戏。这一点毫无疑问。那你如何在这场游戏中取胜呢？他们患有严重的特朗普妄想症（TDS），从他们的立场来看，我不确定他们是否还有治愈的可能。我觉得如果国会中的每个人都服用一些蘑菇，或许我们的世界会变得更好。首先，医用大麻非常神奇。我有朋友和医生告诉我，它真的非常神奇。前往那个岛屿的客户名单还没有公开。是啊，这非常有趣，不是吗？

The following is a conversation with Donald Trump on this, the Lex Friedman podcast. They get any smaller, smaller, smaller, right? I mean, people people do respect you more when you have a big camera for some. No, it's cool. And about 20 guys that you pay a fortune to. All right. OK. You said that you love winning and you have won a lot in life in real estate, in business, in TV, in politics. So let me start with the mindset, a psychology question. What drives you more, the love of winning or the hate of losing? Maybe equally, maybe both. I don't like losing and I do like winning. I've never thought of it as to which is more of a driving force.

以下是唐纳德·特朗普在Lex Friedman播客上的一次对话。他们在讨论摄影设备的大小，越来越小，是吧？我的意思是，人们在你拥有大相机时会更多地尊重你。不，这很酷，还有大约20个你花大价钱雇来的家伙。好吧。你说过你喜欢赢，而且你在人生、房地产、商业、电视和政治上赢了很多次。那么让我从一个心态和心理学问题开始问。是什么更驱动你，是对胜利的热爱还是对失败的厌恶？可能是一样的，可能两者都是。我不喜欢失败，但我确实喜欢胜利。我从没想过哪个是更大的驱动力。

You've been close with a lot of the greats in sport. You think about Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali. You have people like Michael Jordan who I think hate losing more than anybody. So what do you learn from those guys? Well, they do have something different. You know, the great champions have something very different, like the sports champions and you know, you have champions in other fields, but you see it more readily in sports, you see it over a weekend or you see it during a game. And you see that certain people stand out and they keep they keep standing out. But it's there for you. It doesn't take a lifetime to find out that somebody was a winner or a loser. And so the sports thing is very interesting, but you know, I play golf with different people and you have. There's a different mindset among champions. There's really a very different mindset.

你与很多体育界的伟人关系密切。像泰格·伍兹、穆罕默德·阿里这样的人。还有像迈克尔·乔丹这种我认为最讨厌失败的人。那么，你从这些人那里学到了什么呢？嗯，他们确实有一些不同的特质。伟大的冠军们拥有一些非常独特的东西，比如体育冠军，在其他领域你也有冠军，但在体育中你更容易看到这种特质，你可以在一个周末或者一场比赛中看到。而且你会发现某些人特别突出，并且他们一直保持突出。但这种特质对你来说是显而易见的，不需要花费一辈子的时间去发现某个人是赢家还是输家。因此，体育领域非常有趣。我与不同的人一起打高尔夫，你会发现冠军们有不同的心态，真的有完全不同的心态。

There's a different there's a different thought process. You know, talent wise, sometimes you can't tell the difference in talent, but at the end of a weekend, they seem to win. And it's very interesting. Like as an example, Tiger or Jack Nicholas, he was a phenomenal winner. And he does have a different way about him. And Tiger has a different way about him. And Michael Jordan, and there's never one. You would think that there'd be one way Arnold Palmer was the nicest guy you'd ever meet. And then you have some champions that aren't really nice. They're just focused on doing their job. So you have, you know, there's not one type of person. But the one thing I would say that everybody seems to have in common is they're driven, they're driven like beyond. They don't seem to give up easily.

有一种不同的思维方式。你知道，有时候在天赋上，你可能看不出差异，但到了周末，他们似乎总能赢。这很有趣。例如，老虎伍兹或杰克·尼克劳斯，他是一个非凡的赢家。他确实有一种不同的风格，而老虎有他自己不同的风格。迈克尔·乔丹也是如此，从来没有一个统一的方式。你可能会认为会有一个统一的成功方式，阿诺德·帕尔默是你见过的最友善的人。但也有一些冠军并不怎么友善，他们只是专注于完成自己的工作。所以没有一种固定的人格类型。但是我会说，他们似乎有一个共同点，那就是他们非常有驱动力。他们看起来很难放弃。

They don't give up. They don't give up, but they do seem to be, you know, they have a passion that's maybe more than people that don't do as well. You've said that politics is a dirty game. Yeah, it is a dirty game. That's certainly true. So if it is a game, how do you win at that game? Well, you win at that game by getting the word out. And by using sense, you have to have a feeling where it's going. You also have to have a feeling of what's right. You can't necessarily just go what's popular. You have to do what's good for a country if you're talking about countries. But you have to get the word out and you have to just continuously, like, for instance, you have a great show, you have a great podcast. It's very well watched and I'm sitting here and I do this.

他们不会放弃。他们不会放弃，但他们确实有一种激情，可能比那些不太成功的人更强。你曾说过政治是一场肮脏的游戏。是的，的确如此。那么，如果这是一场游戏，你要如何赢得这场游戏呢？你赢得这场游戏的方式是传播信息。你需要有一种直觉，能够感知它的发展方向。你也需要感知什么是正确的。你不一定要随大流，而是要做对国家有利的事（如果我们在谈论国家的话）。但你必须传播信息，而且要不断地这样做。比如说，你有一个很棒的节目，有一个很棒的播客。它有很多人观看，而我就在这里参加这个节目。

A lot of people see it and I do other things and a lot of people see that. And I go traditional also, you know, you have traditional television, which is getting a little bit older and maybe less significant, could be less significant. I don't know, but it's changing a lot. The whole plane of platform is changing a lot. It's changed a lot in the last two, three years. But from a political standpoint, you have to find out what people are doing, what they're watching and you have to get it. You have to get on. I just see that these platforms are starting to dominate, they're getting very big numbers. I did spaces with Elon and they got numbers like nobody's ever heard before. So, you know, this is you wouldn't do that on like radio.

很多人看到我做的各种活动，还有很多人看到我做的其他事情。我也参与传统渠道，比如传统电视，虽然它在渐渐变老，可能也变得不那么重要了，我不是很确定，但它确实在发生很大变化。这几年整个媒体平台的格局都在迅速改变。从政治的角度看，你必须了解人们在做什么、在看什么，然后去融入进去。我发现很多新平台都在崛起，数据非常惊人。我跟埃隆（马斯克）一起做的 Spaces 节目获得了前所未有的高收视率。而这些在传统的广播上是做不到的。

You wouldn't do that. Those numbers, no matter how good a show, you wouldn't do those numbers on radio. You wouldn't do them on television. You've been successful in business. You've been successful in politics. What do you think is the difference between gaining success between the two, the two different disparate worlds? Yeah, and it's different, very different. I have a lot of people that are in business that are successful and they'd like to go over to politics. And then you realize they can't speak. They choke. You know, it's hard to make a speech in front of that. Let's say you're talking about a big audience, but I get very big audiences. And, you know, for many people, it's virtually impossible to get up and speak for an hour and a half and have nobody leave.

你不会那样做的。那些数据，无论表演效果多好，你都不会在广播上做到那些数据。也不会在电视上做到。你在商业上成功了，你在政治上也成功了。你认为在这两个迥然不同的领域中获得成功的区别是什么？是的，这确实很不一样。我有很多在商业上成功的朋友，他们想转到政治领域。然后你会发现他们不会说话了，他们会怯场。你知道，在大场合发言是很难的。假设你要面对一个庞大的观众，但我有非常大的观众。而且，你知道，对许多人来说，要站起来讲一个半小时，并且没有人离场，这几乎是不可能的。

You know, it's not an easy thing to do and it's an ability. But I have many people that are very, very successful in business would love to do what I did. And yet they can't pull the trigger. And in many cases, I don't think it would work almost for everybody. It's not going to work. It's a very, it's a very tough thing to do. It's a big transition. And now if you talked about people in the business and politics going into business, likewise, that wouldn't generally work out so well either. It's different talents. It's different skills. I have somebody wants to go into politics so bad, but it's got a little problem. He's got stage fright. Now he's a total killer. But if he gets up into a stage in front of people, he doesn't do well to put it mildly, actually. I mean, he does badly.

你知道，这并不是一件容易的事情，这需要一种能力。不过我有很多在商界非常非常成功的人，他们很想做我做过的事情。但他们无法付诸行动。在很多情况下，我认为这样做对大多数人来说都不会奏效。这非常艰难，这是一个巨大的转变。而且，如果你谈到从商界进入政界的人，同样地，这通常也不会很顺利。这需要不同的才能和技能。我有个朋友非常想进入政界，但他有一个小问题，他有舞台恐惧症。尽管他在其他方面是个绝对的高手，但一旦站在舞台上面对观众，他的表现说得客气一点，就是不太好，实际上，他表现得很糟糕。

So you have to be able to make hard decisions like you do in business, but also be able to captivate an audience. Look, if you're a politician, you have to be able to speak in front of large crowds. There are a lot of people can't do that. I've seen it. They can't even think about doing it. And they don't. There are many people in business right now. I could name them, but I don't want to embarrass anybody. They've been talking about running for president for 15 years. And they're very big in business, very well known, actually. And but it takes guts to run like for president, I can tell you, it takes guts to run.

你需要像在商业中那样做出艰难的决定，但也要能够吸引观众的注意。比如，如果你是一个政治家，你必须能在大群观众面前讲话。很多人做不到这一点，我见过的。他们甚至连想都不敢想，更别说去做了。现在很多商业人士，我可以点名，但不想让他们难堪。他们谈论竞选总统已经15年了，而且他们在商界很有名，确实很有名。但是竞选总统需要勇气，我可以告诉你，竞选真的需要勇气。

It's also a very dangerous profession, if you want to know the truth, but dangerous in a different sense, too. But it takes a lot of courage to run for presidents, not easy, but you have. And you know, the same people as I do, there are a lot of people that would like to run for president that are very, very successful in business, but they don't have the guts to do it. And they have to give up a lot. One of the great things about people from the business world is they're often great deal makers and you're a great deal maker. And you've talked about the war in Ukraine and that you would be able to find a deal that both Putin and Zelensky would accept. What do you think that deal looks like?

说实话，从政也是一项非常危险的职业，但危险的方式有所不同。不过竞选总统需要极大的勇气，这并不容易，而你却做到了。你知道，和我一样，有很多在商业上非常成功的人想竞选总统，但他们没有这种勇气。而且他们得放弃很多东西。商业界的一个优点是，他们通常是很好的谈判者，而你就是一个出色的谈判者。你提到过乌克兰战争，并且说你可以找到一个让普京和泽连斯基都能接受的方案。你认为这个方案会是什么样子呢？

I think the deal, I wouldn't talk about it too much because I think I can make a deal. If if I win as president elect, I'll have a deal made guaranteed. That's a war that shouldn't have happened. It's terrible. Look, Biden is the worst president in the history of our country. And she's probably worse than him. That's that's something that should have never happened. But it did happen. And now it's a much tougher deal to make than it would have been before it started. Millions of people. I think the number is going to be a lot higher when you see this all at some point, iron out, I think the numbers are going to be the death numbers are going to be a lot higher than people think. When you take a look at the destruction and the buildings coming down all over the place in Ukraine, I think those numbers are going to be a lot higher.

我认为这个协议，不应该过多讨论，因为我认为我可以达成一个协议。如果我当选总统，我保证会达成一个协议。那是一场不该发生的战争，太糟糕了。你看，拜登是我们国家历史上最差的总统，而她可能比他还糟糕。这是不该发生的事，但它确实发生了。现在，要达成协议比战争开始前要困难得多。成千上万的人，我认为当一切尘埃落定时，死亡人数会比人们想象的高得多。在乌克兰，建筑物一个接一个倒塌，看到这些破坏，我认为死亡人数会高得多。

They lie about the numbers. They try and keep them low. They knock down a building that's two blocks long. These are big buildings and they say one person was mildly injured. No, no, a lot of people were killed. And there are people in those buildings and they have no chance once they start coming down, there's no chance. So so that's a war that absolutely has to get done. And then you have Israel and then you have a lot of other places that are talking about the war. The world is is a rough place right now. And a lot of it's because of the fact that America has no leadership. And I believe that she'll be probably worse than by now watching it to view the other night.

他们在虚报数字，试图把数字压低。他们推倒了一幢两条街长的建筑。这些是大型建筑物，但他们却说只有一个人轻伤。不是的，不是的，很多人丧命了。那些建筑物里有很多人，一旦建筑开始倒塌，他们根本没有机会逃生。所以，这是一场绝对必须打完的战争。然后还有以色列，还有很多其他地方也在谈论战争。如今的世界很残酷，这很大一部分是因为美国缺乏领导力。我相信她（美国）现在的情况可能比以前更糟糕，看昨晚的电视节目就知道了。

I mean, it was just a self ball interview. So you would like to see her do more interviews challenged more? I don't know. I can't believe the whole thing is happening. We had a man in there that should have never been in there. They kept him in a basement. They use COVID. They cheated, but they use COVID to cheat and they cheated without COVID too. But you had somebody in there and now we have a woman that is not, I mean, she couldn't do an interview. This was a really soft interview. This is an interview where they give in a multiple choice. The questions, multiple guests, I got multiple guests. And I don't think she did well. I think she did very poorly. How do you think you'll do in the debate coming up in a few days? So I've done a lot of debating only as a politician. I never debated. My first debate was the Rosio Donald debate, right? The famous Rosio Donald debate, the answer. But I've done well with debates. I mean, I became president. Then the second time I got millions more votes on, I got the first time. I was told if I got 63 million, which is what I got the first time you you would win, you can't not win. And I got millions of more votes on that. And lost by a whisker. But and look what happened to the world with all of the wars and all of the problems. And look what happened with inflation because inflation is just eating up our country, eating it up so it's too bad. But there are a lot of things that could happen. We have to get those wars settled. We have to get, I'll tell you, you have to get Ukraine done. That could end up in a third world war. So could the Middle East. So could the Middle East.

我意思是，那只是一场很轻松的采访。所以你是希望看到她参加更多有挑战性的采访吗？我不知道。我简直无法相信这一切正在发生。我们之前有一个根本不该在那儿的人，他们把他关在地下室里，他们利用新冠病毒作弊。虽然没有新冠病毒他们也作弊，但他们确实利用了新冠病毒作弊。现在我们有一个妇女，她根本无法进行采访。那次采访非常软弱，就像是给出多项选择题的采访一样。问题像是多项选项，我觉得她表现得很差，非常差。你觉得即将到来的辩论你会表现如何？我作为政治家参加过很多辩论，但在那之前我从未辩论过。我第一次辩论是著名的罗西奥·唐纳尔德辩论。但辩论对我来说还是不错的，毕竟我当了总统。第二次我得到了比第一次多得多的票，我第一次被告知，如果我得到6300万票，我肯定会赢。但我第二次得到了更多票，却还是只差一点儿输掉了。但看看世界发生的事情吧，战争和各种问题，还有通货膨胀，通货膨胀正在蚕食我们的国家，真是太糟糕了。但还是有很多事情可以发生，我们必须解决那些战争问题。我要说，我们必须解决乌克兰问题，否则可能会导致第三次世界大战。中东也是如此，中东也是。

So maybe let's talk about what it takes to negotiate with somebody like Putin or Zilensky. Do you think Putin would be willing to give up any of the regions that already captured? I don't know. I can tell you that this, all of this would have never happened and it would have been very easy because you don't have like that question wouldn't be asked. That's a tougher question. Once that starts happening, because he has taken over a lot of territory. And I guess they're insurgents now too, right? So it's a little bit interesting that that's happening and that it can happen. And it's interesting that Putin has allowed that to happen. Look, that's one that should have never started. We have to get it stopped. Ukraine is being demolished. They're destroying a great culture that's largely destroyed.

所以，也许我们来聊聊如何与像普京或泽连斯基这样的人谈判。你觉得普京会愿意放弃已经占领的任何地区吗？我不知道。我可以告诉你，如果一开始就没有发生这些事情，这个问题根本就不会被提出来。这是一个更难的问题，因为他已经占领了大量领土。而且我猜，现在也有叛乱分子，对吧？所以这种情况有点复杂，同时也很有趣，竟然会发生这样的事情，而且是普京允许这种情况发生的。看，这一切本不该开始的，我们必须停止它。乌克兰正被摧毁，他们在毁灭一个本来很伟大的文化，现在已经大部分被毁了。

What do you think works better in those kinds of negotiations? Leverage of, let's say, friendship, the character, the stick friendship or sort of the threat of using the economic and military power. So it depends on who the person is. You know, everyone's different. Negotiations interesting because it depends on who the person is. And then you have to guess or know through certain knowledge, which is, you know, more important, the character, the stick. And with some people, it's the stick and with some people, it's the carrot. I think the stick probably is generally more successful in that, you know, we're talking about war. But the kind of destruction that we're witnessing now, nobody's ever seen. I mean, it's a terrible thing. And we're witnessing it all over, witnessing it in all parts of the world. A lot of things are going to get started.

你认为在那种谈判中，什么方式更有效？是利用友情和人品，比如说，用友情和道德力量，还是用经济和军事力量的威胁？这要看具体的人。每个人都不一样。谈判很有趣，因为它取决于谈判对象是谁。你需要猜测或者通过某些知识来判断，哪个更重要——友情的力量还是威胁。在有些人那里，威胁更有效；而在另一些人那里，利诱更奏效。我认为在谈论战争时，威胁可能通常更成功。但我们现在目睹的破坏程度，前所未见。这是件可怕的事情，我们在世界各地都能看到它。很多事情会因此开始。

Look what's going on with China. Look at Japan, they're starting to rearm now. They're starting to rearm because China's getting, you know, taken over certain islands and there's a lot of danger in the war right now in the world. There's a lot of and there's a great possibility of World War three. And we better get this thing done fast because five months with people like her and him, he's checked out. He just goes to the beach and thinks he looks good on a bathing suit, which he doesn't. He sort of checked out. Hey, look, you know, you can't blame him. If that was the coup, they took it over. They took over the presidential deal. The whole presidential thing was taken over in a coup. He had 14 million votes. She had no votes, not one. And nobody thought it was going to be her. Nobody wanted to be her. She was a joke until six weeks ago when they said we're going to have to politically they felt they had to pick her. And if they didn't pick her, they thought they'd be a problem. I don't know if that's right or not. I actually don't think it's right, but you know, they they thought it was right. And now immediately the press comes to their aid.

看看中国现在在干什么。看看日本，他们开始重新武装了。他们之所以重新武装，是因为中国正在占领一些岛屿，现在世界上的战争危险非常大。很有可能会爆发第三次世界大战。我们必须快速解决这个问题，因为再拖五个月，像她和他这样的人，尤其是他，他已经放弃了。他只想着去海滩穿泳装自以为看起来不错，其实并不是那样。他差不多已经放弃了。你知道吗，不能怪他。如果那是政变，他们夺取了总统职位。整个总统职位是在政变中被夺走的。他有1400万票，她没有任何票，连一张都没有。没有人认为会是她。没人希望是她。直到六周前，他们才说，我们不得不政治上选择她。如果不选择她，他们认为会有问题。我不知道这是否正确。我实际上不认为这是对的，但你知道，他们认为是对的。现在媒体立即前来援助他们。

If we can go back to China on negotiation, how do we avoid war with China in the 21st century? Well, there are ways now. Here's the problem. If I tell you how and I'd love to do it, but if I if I give you a plan, like I have a very exacting plan, how to stop Ukraine and Russia. And I have a certain idea, maybe not a plan, but an idea for China because we do. You know, we're going to learn a lot of trouble. They'll be in a lot of trouble, too. But we're in a lot of trouble. But I can't give you those plans because if I give you those plans, I'm not going to be able to use them. They'll be very unsuccessful, you know, part of its surprise, right? Right. But they won't be able to help us much. So you have a plan on what to say to Putin. Yeah, I know. Take office. No, I had a very good relationship with him and I had a good relationship with Zalinski, too, but I had a very good relationship with Putin. Tough topic, but important. You said lost by a whisker. I'm an independent. I have a lot of friends who are independent, many of whom like your policies, like the fact that you're a deal maker, like the fact that you can end wars, but they are troubled by what happened to the 2020 election and statements about widespread fraud and this kind of stuff, fake electro scheme. What can you say to those independent voters to help them decide who to vote for? Right. I think the fraud was on the other side. I think the election was a fraud. And many people felt it was that and they wanted answers.

如果我们能回到中国进行谈判，我们怎么能在21世纪避免与中国的战争？现在有一些方法。问题在于，如果我告诉你这些方法，我很乐意这么做，但是如果我告诉你一个计划，比如我有一个非常明确的计划来阻止乌克兰和俄罗斯之间的冲突。而对于中国，我有一些想法，也许不是一个具体的计划，但确实有一些想法。你知道，我们会面临很多麻烦，他们也会有很多麻烦。但我不能告诉你这些计划，因为如果我告诉你，我就不能使用它们了。计划的部分成功在于出其不意，对吧？对吧。因此，如果我给你这些计划，它们不会对我们有太大帮助。 所以，你有一个计划知道该对普京说什么。是的，我知道。我有非常好的关系与他，而且我与泽伦斯基也有好的关系，但我与普京的关系非常好。这是个艰难但重要的话题。 你说失之毫厘。我是个独立人士，我有很多朋友也是独立人士，很多人喜欢你的政策，喜欢你会做交易，喜欢你可以结束战争，但他们对2020年选举发生的事情以及关于广泛舞弊的声明等感到困扰。你能对那些独立选民说些什么来帮助他们决定投票给谁？ 对吧。我认为欺诈在另一边。我认为选举是一个骗局。很多人也这样认为，他们希望得到答案。

And when you can't challenge an election, you have to be able to challenge it. Otherwise, it's going to get worse, not better. And there are lots of ways to solve this problem. Go to paper ballots and do it the easy way. I mean, paper ballots and you have voter ID and you have same day voting and you have proof of citizenship, which is very important because we have people voting that are not citizens. They just came in and they're loading up the payrolls. They're loading up everything. They're putting students in schools. They don't speak a word of English. And they're taking the seats of people that are citizens of our country.

当你不能质疑选举时，你就必须能够质疑它。否则，情况只会变得更糟，不会变得更好。有很多方法可以解决这个问题。可以使用纸质选票，这是最简单的方式。我的意思是，用纸质选票，并且有选民身份证，有同一天投票，还有公民身份证明，这非常重要，因为我们有一些投票的人不是公民。他们刚来到这里，正在占用我们的资源。他们占用了工作岗位，占用了学校的学位，他们一句英语也不会说，还占用了我们本国公民的座位。

So look, we have the worst border in the history of the world. We have coming into our country right now, millions and millions of people at levels that nobody's ever seen. I don't believe any country's ever seen it. And they would use sticks and stones not to make it happen, not to let it happen. We don't we don't do anything. And we have a person who is the borders are who now said she wasn't really the borders up, but she was the borders up, but she was in charge of the border. And we have her and she's saying very strongly, oh, I did such a good job. She was horrible, horrible, the harm she's done. But we have people coming in from other countries all over the world, not just South America. And they're coming in from prisons and jails. They're coming in from mental institutions and insane asylums. And they're street criminals right off the street. They take them and they're being given to our country drug dealers, human traffickers. We're destroying our country.

所以你看，我们有世界上最糟糕的边境。现在，有成百上千万的人涌入我们国家，这样的规模前所未见。我不认为任何国家曾经历过这样的情况。其他国家会不惜一切代价，用棍棒来阻止这种情况的发生。但我们什么都不做。我们有一个负责边境的人，她现在说她其实并不负责边境，但实际上她却是负责的，而且她还非常自豪地说自己做得很好。实际上，她的表现非常糟糕，对边境造成了巨大的伤害。不仅仅是南美洲，来自全球各个国家的人都在涌入，有些人是刚从监狱和精神病院里出来的街头罪犯，还有毒贩和人口贩子。我们正在毁掉我们的国家。

This is a sin what's been allowed to take place over the last four years. We're destroying our country and we'll see how that all works out. But it's not even believable. And now you see you saw in Aurora, Colorado, a group of very tough young thugs from Venezuela, taking over big areas, including buildings, they're taking over buildings. They have their big rifles, but they're taking over buildings. We're not going to let this happen. We're not going to let them destroy our country. And you know, when those countries crime is way down, they're taking around to their prisons, which is good because good for them. I do the same thing. By the way, if I ran one of those countries, any country in the world, I would make sure that America has every one of our prisoners. Every one of our criminals would be here. I can't believe they're going so slowly, but some aren't. And but they all are doing it. And we can't let that happen. They're emptying out their prisons and their mental institutions into the United States of America. We can't let that happen.

这简直是罪恶，看看过去四年所发生的事情。我们正在毁掉我们的国家，看看结果如何。但这难以置信。你看，现在在科罗拉多州的奥罗拉，一群来自委内瑞拉的非常强硬的年轻暴徒正在占领大块地盘，包括建筑物。他们带着大枪，占领了建筑物。我们不会让这种事情发生，也不会让他们毁掉我们的国家。你知道，那些国家的犯罪率大幅下降，因为他们把罪犯都送进监狱，这对他们来说是好事。如果我管理那些国家中的一个，或者世界上的任何一个国家，我也会确保把所有罪犯送到美国。我们的罪犯都会在这里。我无法相信他们行动得如此缓慢，但还是有一些人在做。而且我们不能让这种事情发生。他们正在把监狱和精神病院的人送到美国。我们不能让这种事情继续下去。

So a lot of people believe that there was some shady stuff that went on with the election, whether it's media bias or big tech, but still the claim of white spread fraud is the thing that bothers people. Well, I don't focus on the past. I focus on the future. I mean, I talk about how bad the economy is, how bad inflation is, how bad things like which is important. Afghanistan was, in my opinion, the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to our country. And because of that, I think Putin went in when he said, how stupid we were. Putin went in. But it was the most embarrassing moment in the history of our country. I really believe that. But we left we left 13 dead soldiers.

很多人相信选举中有一些不正当行为，包括媒体偏见或大科技公司的影响，但真正让人困扰的是有关大规模舞弊的说法。不过，我不关注过去，我关注未来。我谈论经济有多糟糕，通货膨胀有多严重，以及其他一些重要的事情。比如，在我看来，阿富汗事件是我们国家最令人尴尬的事情。我真的认为这是我们国家历史上最丢脸的时刻。正因为这一事件，我认为普京看到了我们的愚蠢才决定采取行动。我们在事件中损失了13名士兵。

Think of it, 13 dead soldiers, many soldiers horrifically hurt with arms and legs and everything else gone. We left hostages behind. We left Americans behind. We left military equipment, the likes of which nobody's ever left behind before. Billions and billions of dollars of equipment. They're now selling the equipment. They're one of the largest arms dealers in the world. And very sad, very sad. And we were there for a long time. I was going to get out. We were getting ready to get out then we got interrupted by the election. But we would have been out with dignity and strength. We were having very little problem with the Taliban when I was there because they knew it was going to be tough. I dealt with Abdul Abdul was the leader. And we got along fine. He understood.

想想看，13名士兵阵亡，许多士兵受了严重的伤，有的手脚都没了。我们留下了人质。我们留下了美国人。我们还留下了大批军事装备，前所未有的规模，价值几十亿、数百亿美元的装备。他们现在在卖这些装备，成了世界上最大的武器贩子之一。这非常悲哀，非常悲哀。而且我们在那里已经很长时间了。我原本打算撤出，我们正准备撤出，但因为选举被打断了。但我们会以尊严和实力撤出。当我在那里的时候，我们和塔利班几乎没有什么问题，因为他们知道会很难对付。我和阿卜杜勒谈过，他是领导人。我们相处得还不错，他明白我的意思。

But you know, they were shooting. They were killing a lot of our people before I came down. And when I got there, I said, I spoke to him. I said, can't do it. Don't do it anymore. We went 18 months before this happened. This horrible day happened. We went 18 months and nobody was shot at or killed. What do you think that was the character of the stick in that case? In Afghanistan, the stick definitely is a threat of military force. That was the stick. It doesn't have to be, but that was the stick. Well, let me just link on the election a little a little bit more for this selection. It might be a close one. What can we do to avoid the insanity and division of the previous election? Whether you win or lose?

但你知道，他们之前在开枪。他们在我来之前杀了我们很多人。当我到那里的时候，我跟他们说，不能这样做，不能再这样了。在这件可怕的事情发生之前，我们经历了18个月的平静。18个月，没有人被枪击或杀害。你认为在这种情况下，棍子的作用是什么？在阿富汗，棍子肯定是军事威胁。这就是棍子的作用。不一定非得是这样，但这就是我们用的方式。好吧，我再谈谈选举。这次选举可能会很接近。我们怎样才能避免上次选举的疯狂和分裂呢？无论你是赢还是输。

Well, I hope it's not a close one. I mean, I don't know how people can vote for somebody that is destroyed our country. The inflation, the bad economy. But to me, in a way, the worst is what they've allowed to happen at our border, where they've allowed millions of people to come in here from places that you don't want to know about. And I can't believe that that's going to be a close election. You know, we're leading in the polls. But and it looks close. But I think in the end, it's not going to be a close election. What do you think is the right way to solve the immigration crisis? Is mass deportation one of the solutions you will think about? Well, you've got to get the criminals out of here fast, right?

好吧，我希望这次选举不会势均力敌。我的意思是，我不明白为什么会有人投票给破坏我们国家的人。通货膨胀、糟糕的经济情况，这些都很糟糕。但对我来说，最糟糕的是他们在边境上放任不管，让成百上千的人从一些你根本不想知道的地方涌入我们的国家。我无法相信这场选举会很接近。你知道，我们在民调中领先，可是结果看起来很接近。不过我认为最终不会是势均力敌的选举。你认为解决移民危机的正确方法是什么？大规模驱逐是否会是你考虑的解决方案之一？嗯，你必须尽快将罪犯赶出去，对吧？

You know, the people from mental institutions, you got to get them back into their mental institution. No country can afford this. It's just too much money. You look at what's happening in New York and Chicago and LA and lots of places. And you take a look at what's happening. There's no country can afford this. We can't afford it. And we've got to get the bad ones out immediately. And the rest have to be worked on. You know, it's happened before Dwight Eisenhower was sort of a moderate president, a moderate type person, but he hated when he saw people pouring into the country. And they were nothing like now. You know, I probably got elected in 2016 because of the border.

你知道，那些从精神病院出来的人，我们必须把他们送回精神病院。没有哪个国家能负担得起这种情况，花费实在太多了。你看看纽约、芝加哥、洛杉矶等许多地方发生的情况。没有哪个国家能负担得起。我们也负担不起。我们必须立刻把那些坏人清除出去。而其余的人则需要进行处理。你知道，这种情况以前也发生过。德怀特·艾森豪威尔是一个温和的总统，一个温和的人，但他非常讨厌看到人们涌入这个国家。当时的情况与现在完全无法相比。你知道，可能我在2016年能当选，就是因为边境问题。

And I told people what was happening and they understood it. And I won the election and I won the election. I think because of the border, our border is 25 times worse right now than I was in 2016. I had it fixed to I had it the last week of my famous chart that I put up was exactly that. You know, the chart when I looked to the right, I said, there's the chart being that was not a pleasant experience. But the chart that I put up said that was done by Border Patrol, that was the lowest number that we've ever had come into our country in recorded history. And we have to get it back to that again. We will. Let me ask you about Project 2025.

我告诉人们发生了什么，他们理解了。我赢得了选举，我赢得了选举。我认为这是因为边境问题，我们现在的边境情况比2016年差了25倍。当时我解决了这个问题，最后一周我展示了一张著名的图表。你知道，那张图表，当我看向右边时，我说，这就是图表，它显示的不是一个愉快的经历。但那张图表是由边境巡逻队制作的，显示的是我们有记录以来进入我们国家的最低人数。我们必须再次回到那个状态，我们会做到的。让我问你关于2025计划的问题。

So you've publicly said that you don't have any direct connection to nothing. I know nothing about it. And they know that too. Democrats know that. And I purposely haven't read it because I want to say to you, I don't I have no idea what it's all about. It's easier than saying I read it and, you know, all of the things. No, I purposely haven't read it. And I've heard about it. I've heard about things that are in there that I don't like. And there's some things in there that everybody would like. But there are things that I don't like at all. And I think it's unfortunate that they put it out.

所以你公开表示你完全没有任何直接的关系。我对此一无所知。他们也知道这一点。民主党人也知道。我故意没去读那些东西，因为我想告诉你，我真的不知道那是什么内容。这样说比说我读了那个，还要解释一堆事情要容易多了。不，我就是故意没读过。我听说过其中的一些内容，有些我不喜欢。当然，也有一些是大家都会喜欢的内容。但也有一些我完全不喜欢的。我觉得他们把这个东西公布出来很不幸。

But it doesn't mean anything because it has nothing to do with me. Project 25 has it has absolutely nothing to do with me. You posted recently about marijuana and that you're okay with it being legalized, but it has to be done safely. Can you explain your policy there? Or I just put out a paper and first of all, medical marijuana has been amazing. I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing, the medical marijuana. And we put out a statement that we can live with the marijuana. It's got to be a certain age.

但这对我来说毫无意义，因为这跟我没有任何关系。项目25和我完全无关。你最近发帖提到大麻，并且你支持合法化，但必须安全进行。能解释一下你的政策吗？或者我发布了一篇文章，首先，医用大麻非常了不起。我有朋友，听过别人的经历，还有医生告诉我，医用大麻效果非常好。我们发表了一份声明，表示可以接受大麻，但必须有年龄限制。

It's got to be a certain age to buy it. It's got to be done in a very concerted lawful way. And the way they're doing it in Florida, I think, is going to be actually good. It's going to be very good. But it's got to be done in a good way. It's got to be done in a clean way. You go into some of these places like in New York, it's all it smells all marijuana. You can't the way you've got to have a system with this control. And I think the way they've done it in Florida is very good. Do you know anything about psychedelics?

购买这种东西必须达到一定的年龄限制。必须以非常协调合法的方式进行。而且我认为佛罗里达州的做法实际上会很好。这将会是非常好的。但是必须以良好的方式进行，必须以干净的方式进行。你去了一些像纽约这样的地方，到处都是大麻的气味。你必须要有一个有控制的系统。我认为佛罗里达州的做法非常好。你知道关于迷幻药的事情吗？

So I'm not a drug guy, but I recently did ayahuasca. Yeah. And there's a lot of people that speak to sort of the health benefits and the spiritual benefits of these different psychedelics. I think we would probably have a better world if everybody in Congress took some mushrooms, perhaps. Now, I know you don't you stay away from all of that stuff. I know also veterans use it for dealing with PTSD and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's great and it's interesting that you're thinking about being more accepting of some of these drugs, which don't just have a recreational purpose, but a medical purpose, treatment purpose. So we put out a statement today. We're going to put it on another one probably next week, be more specific. Although I think it's pretty specific and we'll we'll see how that all goes. That's a referendum coming up in some states, but it's coming up and we'll see how it does. I will say it's been very hard to beat it. You take a look at the numbers. It's been very hard to beat it. So I think it'll generally pass, but you want to do it in a safe way.

所以我不是吸毒的人，但我最近尝试了圣茶（ayahuasca）。是的。有很多人谈到这些不同迷幻药的健康和精神益处。我认为如果国会里的每个人都尝试一下蘑菇或许世界会更好。现在，我知道你不碰这些东西。我也知道退伍军人有时用这些药物来应对PTSD之类的问题。所以这些药物很好，用途广泛，具有趣的是，你也在考虑更接受这些不仅仅是用于娱乐，还有医疗和治疗用途的药物。 今天我们发表了一份声明。我们可能会在下周再发表一份，更具体一些。尽管我认为现在已经很具体了。我们看看情况如何。这涉及到一些州即将进行的公投，但它已经在进行中了，看看结果如何。我得说，要打败它真的很难。看一下数据就知道了，这真的很难。所以我认为整体上会通过，但你希望以一种安全的方式进行。

Speaking of marijuana, let me ask you about my good friend Joe Rogan. So you had a bit of tension with him. So when he said nice things about RFK Junior, I think you've you said some not so nice things about Joe, and I think that was a bit unfair. And as a fan of Joe, I would love to see you do his podcast because he is legit the greatest conversationalist in the world. So what's what's the story behind the tension? I don't think there was any tension. And I've always liked him, but I don't know him. I mean, I only see him when I walk into the arena with Dana and I shake his hand. I see him there and I think he's good at what he does, but I don't know about doing his podcast.

说到大麻，我想问一下我好友Joe Rogan的事。你们之间似乎有点紧张关系。当他对RFK Junior说了些好话时，我记得你说了些不太好听的话，我觉得这有点不公平。作为Joe的粉丝，我很想看到你上他的播客，因为他真的称得上是世界上最棒的对话者。那么，你们之间到底有什么故事？我觉得我们之间并没有什么紧张关系，我一直都很喜欢他，但是我们并不熟。我只是在和Dana一起走进场馆时见到他，和他握个手。我觉得他在自己领域做得很好，但不知道要不要上他的播客。

I mean, I guess I do it, but I haven't been asked and I'm not asking them. I'm not asking anybody. It sounds like a challenging negotiation situation. No, it's not really a negotiation. And he's sort of a liberal guy, I guess, from what I understand. But he likes Kennedy. This was before I found this out before Kennedy came in with us. He's going to be great. He's doing Bobby's going to be great. But I like that he likes Kennedy. I do too. He's a different kind of a guy, but he's got some great things going. And I think he's going to be beyond politics. I think he could be quite influential in taking care of some situations that you probably would agree should be taken care of.

我的意思是，我想我是会做的，但还没人来问我，我也没找他们。我没找任何人。这听起来像是个谈判中的难题。不，其实这不是什么谈判。而且他算是个有点自由派的人吧，据我了解。不过他喜欢肯尼迪。这是在肯尼迪加入我们之前我就知道的。他会很棒的，鲍比会很棒的。但我喜欢他喜欢肯尼迪这点，我也喜欢。他是个不一样的人，但他有些很不错的东西。我认为他会超越政治，能够在处理一些你可能也认为应该被处理的问题上起重要作用。

The Joe Rogan Post is an example. I'd love to get your psychology about behind the tweets and the post on truth. Are you sometimes being intentionally provocative? Are you just speaking your mind? And are there times where you regret some of the truths you've posted? Yeah, I do. I mean, but not that often. Honestly, you know, I do a lot of reposting. The ones you get in trouble with are the reposts because you find down deep they're into some group that you're not supposed to be reposting. You don't even know if those groups are good, bad or indifferent. But the reposts are the ones that really get you in trouble.

《乔·罗根的帖子》就是一个例子。我很想了解你在发推特和关于真相的帖子时的心理活动。你有时候是故意引起争议吗？还是只是直抒胸臆？有没有过后悔发过的一些真相帖子？是的，有过，但不太多。老实说，我很多时候只是在转发。真正惹麻烦的是那些转发的帖子，因为你后来发现它们其实涉及到一些你不应转发的群体。你根本不知道那些群体是好是坏还是无所谓，但转发的帖子真的会让你惹麻烦。

When you do your own words, it's sort of easier. But the reposts go very quickly. And if you're going to check every single little symbol and I don't know, it's worked out pretty well for me. I tell you, it's truth is very powerful truth and it's my platform and it's been very powerful. Very, very powerful. It goes everywhere. I call it my typewriter. You know, that's actually my typewriter. What are you doing usually when you're composing a truth? Like are you chilling back on a couch? Couch is beds. OK, a lot of different things. I mean, like late at night and just I'd like to do some later. You know, I'm not a huge sleeper. But whenever I do them, you know, pass like three o'clock, they criticize you in the next day. Trump was up.

当你用自己的词语表达时，会比较容易。但转载的内容传得非常快。如果你打算检查每一个小符号，我不知道，但这对我来说效果还不错。我告诉你，真相是非常有力量的，这是我的平台，它非常强大，非常非常强大。它传播到各地。我称它为我的打字机。你知道，这实际上是我的打字机。你在创作一个真相时通常会做什么？比如你是躺在沙发上放松吗？沙发是床。其实有很多种情况。比如深夜时，我喜欢晚一点发表。你知道，我不是很爱睡觉。但无论何时发表，像凌晨三点过后，第二天他们就会批评你，特朗普昨晚又熬夜了。

Truth thing. OK, Trump was true thing at three o'clock in the morning. And there should be no problem with that. And then when you think about time zones, how do they know that you're like, you know, in a time zone, like an Eastern zone? So but but every time I do it after like two or three o'clock, it's like, why is he doing that? But it's gotten mean, you know, the truth has become a very successful platform. And I like doing it and it goes everywhere. As soon as I do it, it goes everywhere. The country seems more divided than ever. Yeah. What can you do to help alleviate some of that division? You can get rid of these two people that terrible, they're terrible. You don't want to have them running this country.

真相的事情。好吧，特朗普在凌晨三点说了真话。这没有问题。然而，当你考虑到时区时，他们怎么知道你在一个时区，比如东部时区？但是，每次我在两三点之后说真话时，人们就会想，为什么他要这么做？不过，真相平台已经变得非常成功。我喜欢用它，它的影响力很大，我一发布，传遍四方。国家似乎比以往任何时候都更加分裂。是的。你能做些什么来帮助缓解这种分裂呢？你可以让这两个糟糕的人下台，他们很糟糕。你不希望他们来治理这个国家。

They're not equipped to run a Joe just Joe. It's a disaster. OK. And Kamala, I think she'll end up being worse than him. We'll see. I think a lot's now, you know, the conventions over with. And I see I'm leading in just about all the polls now. They had their little honeymoon period, as they call it. And we'll see how that all goes. So from my personal opinion, I think you are at your best. When you're talking about a positive vision of the future versus criticizing the other side. Yeah. I think you have to criticize though. I think I think they're nasty.

他们没有能力运营一个只有乔的政府。这是一个灾难。好吧。而卡玛拉，我认为她最后会比他更糟。我们拭目以待。我认为很多事情现在，正如你知道的，大会已经结束了。我看到如今几乎在所有的民调中我都领先了。他们经历了所谓的蜜月期。我们看看事情会如何发展吧。从我的个人观点来看，我认为当你在谈论一个积极的未来愿景时，你是最好的，而不是批评对方。是的，我认为你必须批评对方，我觉得他们很恶劣。

They came up with a story that I looked down and I called soldiers that died in world war one. Suckers and losers. OK. Now, number one, who would say that? Number two, who would say it to military people? Nobody was a made up story. It was just a made up story. And they like to repeat it over again. They know it was made up. I have 26 witnesses that nothing was said. They don't want to hear about that. Like she lied on McDonald's, she said that that she worked at McDonald's. It's not a big lie, but it's a big lie. So, you know, I mean, they just went and they checked and unless you can show something, they don't talk about the presses are going to follow up with it. But I'll keep hammering it.

他们编了一个故事，说我低头看着死于一战的士兵，称他们为“傻瓜和失败者”。好吧，第一，谁会说这种话？第二，谁会对军人说这种话？根本就是个编造的故事。他们喜欢反复讲这个故事，明知道是假的。我有26个证人可以证明什么都没有说。他们不想听这些。就像她撒谎说在麦当劳工作过一样。这谎话不大，但影响很大。所以，他们去调查了，除非能拿出证据，否则媒体不会继续跟进这个事儿，但我会一直坚决澄清。

But she never worked at McDonald's. It was just a, you know, sort of a cool thing to say, hey, I worked at McDonald's, you know. But one of the worst was two days ago, I went to Arlington at the request of people that lost their children. They'll always be children to those people. You understand that that's not politically incorrect, as thing to say. The mother comes up, I lost my child. But, you know, the child is a soldier and lost the child because of Biden and because of Kamala. As just as though they had the gun in their hand because it was so badly handled, it should have been done at Bagram, which is the big air base, it shouldn't have been done at a small little airport right in the middle of town where people stormed it. It was a true disaster. And they asked me if I'd come and celebrate with them three years, three years.

但是她从未在麦当劳工作过。只是觉得，说“嘿，我在麦当劳工作过”，挺酷的。可是最糟糕的事情之一是两天前，我应一些失去孩子的人的请求去了阿灵顿。对那些人来说，他们的孩子永远是孩子。你明白，这么说并不是政治不正确。那位母亲走过来说，我失去了我的孩子。可是你知道，这个孩子是个士兵，由于拜登和卡马拉的原因失去了生命，就好像他们手上有枪一样，因为处理得太糟糕了，应该在巴格拉姆那个大空军基地进行撤离，而不是在市中心的小机场，那地方被人占领了，真是一场灾难。他们问我是否愿意与他们一起纪念三年，三年。

They've died three years ago. And I said, I'm going to try. I got to know them because I brought them here, actually, one night they almost all came here and they said, I wonder if Trump will actually come and see us. I heard that we're here. I came so we stayed for like four hours listening to music up in a deck right up stairs, beautiful. And they were great people. So they called me over the last couple of weeks and they said, we're going to have a reunion or three year union. Would you be able to come? It was very hard for me to do it logistically, but I said, I'll get it done. And I got there and we had a beautiful time. I didn't run away.

他们三年前去世了。我当时说，我会试试看。我之所以认识他们，是因为我把他们带到这里来。实际上，有一个晚上他们几乎都来到了这里，他们说，真想知道特朗普会不会真的来看我们。我听说他们在这里，我就来了。于是我们在楼上的一个平台上待了大约四个小时，听着音乐，真是太美好了。他们是很好的人。在过去几周内，他们联系了我，说他们要举行一个三年纪念聚会，问我能不能来。对我来说，安排时间是很困难的，但我说，我会做到的。于是我去了，我们度过了一段美好的时光。我没有逃避。

I didn't, you know, I didn't just walk in shake hands and walk out like people do. And I wasn't looking at my watch like Joe Biden does. And it was amazing. So I did it for them. I didn't do it for me. I don't need the publicity. I mean, I get more publicity probably than anybody. You would know that better than me. But I think maybe more than anybody, maybe more than anybody that's ever lived. I don't know. But I don't think anyone could have any more every time you turn on television. There's like nine different stories, all on different topics in the world. But as an example, you interview a lot of people, good people, successful people.

我没有只是随便进去，握个手，然后就像别人那样走了。我也没有像乔·拜登那样一直看表。这次经历非常令人惊讶。我这么做是为了他们，而不是为了我自己。我不需要宣传，我的知名度可能比任何人都高，或许比有史以来任何人都高。我不知道，但每次你打开电视，都会有好几个有关我的新闻，无论是哪个领域的话题。打个比方，你采访了很多人，他们都是不错的、成功的人。

Let's see how you do with this interview versus them. OK, I mean, I can tell you right now you're going to get the highest numbers you've ever had by sometimes a factor of 10. But but when a gold star family asks me to come in and spend time with them, and then they said, sir, we did a ceremony and then we went down to the graves, which was quite a distance away. They said, sir, would you come to the grave? And then they said, when we were there, it's very sad, actually, because these people shouldn't have died. They shouldn't have died. They died because of Biden and because of Kamala. They died because it just like if they pulled the trigger. OK, now I don't know if that's controversial to say, but I don't think it is.

让我们看看你在这次采访中的表现和他们相比如何。好吧，我想说，我现在可以告诉你，你将得到有史以来最高的数字，有时甚至是前所未有的十倍。但是，当一个金星家庭请求我来与他们共度时光时，他们告诉我：“先生，我们做了一个仪式，然后我们走到墓地，那段距离相当远。” 他们说：“先生，你会来墓地吗？” 当我们在那里时，其实非常悲伤，因为这些人不应该死。他们不应该死。他们因为拜登和卡马拉而死。 就像是拜登和卡马拉自己扣动了扳机一样。 好吧，我不知道这么说是否有争议，但我不认为这是争议。

Afghanistan was the most incompetently run operation I think I've ever seen military or otherwise they were competent, but the families asked me if I'd go. I did go. Then the family said, could we have a picture at the tombstone of my son and we did son or daughter? There was a daughter too. And I took numerous pictures with the families. I don't know if anybody else was in the pictures, but there were mostly families, I guess. That was it. And then I left. I spent a lot of time with them. Then I left and I get home that night and I get a call that the Biden administration with Kamala is accusing me of using Arlington for publicity. I was in use just the opposite, just the opposite. And actually, did you see it just came out? The families actually put out a very strong statement defending me. They said, we asked them to be there.

阿富汗是我所见过最无能的行动之一，无论是军事还是其他领域，尽管他们其实很有能力。但家属们请求我是否能前往，我就去了。后来家属们说，能否在我儿子的墓碑前拍张照，我们拍了照片。无论是儿子还是女儿，其实也有女儿在那里。我跟许多家属拍了很多照片。我不知道还有没有别人，但大部分都是家属。这就是过程。然后我离开了。我花了很多时间陪他们，之后离开了。我回到家那晚，接到电话说拜登政府和卡玛拉指责我利用阿灵顿国墓做宣传。事实恰恰相反，绝对相反。实际上，你看到了吗？刚刚公布的消息，家属们发表了非常强烈的声明支持我，他们说，是我们请求他来到这里的。

Well, politicians and the media can play those games and you're right. Your name gets a lot of use. You're probably legit the most famous person in the world. But on the previous thing in the spirit of unity, you used to be a Democrat. Setting the politicians aside, what do you respect most about people who lean left or Democrats themselves or of that persuasion, progressives, liberals and so on? Well, look, I respect the fact that everybody's in there. And, you know, to a certain extent, life is what you do while you're waiting to die. So you might as well do a good job. I think in terms of what's happening now, I think, you know, we have a chance to save the country. This country's going down and I called it with Venezuela. I called it with a lot of different countries and this country is going down.

好吧，政客和媒体常玩这种把戏，你说的对，你的名字常被提及。你可能真的是世界上最有名的人。但回到之前那个关于团结的话题，你曾经是个民主党人。撇开政客不谈，你对倾向于左翼的人，或者说民主党人、进步派、自由派和其他持类似观点的人，有什么最尊重的地方吗？ 嗯，看，我尊重每个人的参与。你知道，在某种程度上，生活就是你等待死亡的过程中的所作所为，所以你最好做的好一些。我认为就当前的情况来看，我认为我们有机会拯救这个国家。这个国家正在走向衰落，我曾预见到委内瑞拉的情况，我也预见了很多不同国家的情况，现在这个国家也在走向衰落。

If we don't win this election, the election coming up on November 5th is the most important election this country's ever had because if we don't win it, I don't know that there'll be another election and it's going to be a communist country or close. And there's a lot of people listening to this myself included that doesn't think that Kamala is a communist. Well, she's a Marxist. Her father's a Marxist and she's a little unusual. She's advocating for some policies that are towards the direction of democratic socialism, let's say. But there's a lot of people that kind of know the way government works and they say, well, none of those policies are going to actually come to reality. It's just being used during the campaign to grow cities that are too expensive. We need them cheaper. So let's talk about price controls and that's never going to come to reality.

如果我们不赢得这次选举，那么即将到来的11月5日的选举将是这个国家有史以来最重要的选举，因为如果我们不赢，我不知道是否还会有下一次选举，而这个国家将会变成一个共产主义国家或接近共产主义的国家。很多人在听，包括我自己都不认为卡玛拉（Kamala）是共产主义者。不过，她是马克思主义者。她的父亲是马克思主义者，她本人有点与众不同。她提倡的一些政策倾向于民主社会主义。很多了解政府运作方式的人说，这些政策实际上不会实现，只是在竞选中使用，以发展那些过于昂贵的城市，我们需要让它们变得更便宜。所以我们谈论价格控制，但这永远不会变成现实。

It could come to reality. Look, I mean, she came out with price control. It's been tried like a hundred and twenty one different times at different places over the years and it's never worked once. It leads to communism. It leads to socialism. It leads to having no food on the shelves. And it leads to tremendous inflation. It's just a bad idea. Whenever we use terms like communism for her and I don't know if you know this, but some people call you a fascist. Yeah, they do. So I figure it's all right to call them a communist.

这可能变成现实。你看，她提出了价格控制政策。这种政策在过去的不同地方尝试了大约一百二十一次，但从来没有成功过。它会导致共产主义，导致社会主义，导致货架上没有食物，还会引发严重的通货膨胀。这真是个糟糕的主意。每当我们用“共产主义”这样的词来形容她时，我不知道你是否知道，有些人也称你是法西斯。是的，他们的确这么叫。所以我认为称他们为共产主义者也是可以的。

Yeah, they call me a lot worse than I call that. They do indeed. It's just sometimes interesting, though. They'll call me something that's terrible and then I'll hit them back and they'll say, isn't it terrible what Trump said? I said, wait a minute, they just call me. So I believe you have to fight fire with fire. I believe they're very evil people. These are evil people. You know, we have an enemy from the outside and we have an enemy from within. And in my opinion, the enemy from within a radical left loanatix. And I think you have to fight back. Whenever there's a lot of fighting fire with fire, it's too easy to forget that there is a middle of America that is moderate and kind of sees the good in both sides and just likes one side more than the other in terms of policies.

是的，他们对我的称呼比我对他们的称呼要恶劣得多。的确是这样。有时候很有趣的是，他们叫我一些非常难听的名字，然后我回应他们时，他们却说：“瞧瞧特朗普说了多么可怕的话。” 我会说，等一下，他们刚刚可是那样叫我的。所以我相信必须以牙还牙。我认为他们是非常邪恶的人。这些人很邪恶。我们有外部的敌人，也有内部的敌人。在我看来，内部的敌人是那些极左的疯子。我认为你必须反击。不过，当大家都在以牙还牙的时候，很容易忘记美国中间派的存在。他们大多是温和的，可以看到双方的优点，只不过在政策上更倾向于某一方。

Like I said, there's a lot of people that like your policies, like your skill in being able to negotiate and end wars. And they don't see the the impending destruction of America. You know, we had no wars when I was president. That's a big thing. Not in 78 years as that happened, but we had no wars when I was president. We defeated ISIS, but they were that was a war that was started that we weren't anywhere near defeating. But think of it, I had no wars and Victor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary said the world has to have Trump back because everybody was afraid of Trump. Now, that's what he said.

就像我说的，有很多人喜欢你的政策，喜欢你在谈判和结束战争方面的技能。他们没有看到美国即将面临的毁灭。你知道，当我担任总统时，我们没有发生过战争。这是一个大事。过去78年里没有发生这种情况，但我担任总统时没有战争。我们打败了ISIS，但那是一场我们完全没有胜算的战争。想想看，我没有发动过战争，而匈牙利总理欧尔班·维克托说，世界需要特朗普回归，因为大家都怕特朗普。这是他说的。

So I'm not using that term, but I think they respected me. But he said China was afraid, Russia was afraid, everybody was afraid. And I don't care what word they use. It probably that's even a better word if you want to know the truth. But let's use the word respect. They had respect for me. They had respect for the country. I mean, I ended the Nord Stream two pipeline, the Russian pipeline. Nobody else could have done that. I ended it was done. Then Biden comes in and he gave it. He approved it. So we're defending German in these other countries for peanuts compared to what it's worth and they're paying the person would defending them against billions and billions of dollars for energy. I said, how does that work? And we had it out with them and it worked out good and they paid they paid hundreds of billions of dollars or you wouldn't even have a NATO right now. You wouldn't have NATO if it wasn't for me. As the leader of the United States, you were the most powerful man in the world. As you mentioned, not only the most famous, but the most powerful. And if you become leader again, you will have unprecedented power. Just on your own personal psychology, what does that power do to you? Is there any threat of it corrupting how you see the world? No, I don't think so. Look, I've been there for four years.

所以我不会使用那个术语，但我认为他们尊重我。他说中国怕我，俄罗斯也怕我，每个人都怕我。我不在乎他们用什么词，事实上，如果你想知道真相，用“怕”这个词甚至更好。但我们使用“尊重”这个词吧。他们尊重我，他们尊重这个国家。我结束了“北溪二号”管道项目——俄罗斯的那个管道——其他人根本做不到这一点。我结束了这个项目，但拜登上任后批准了它。所以我们为德国和其他国家防卫，几乎得不到什么回报，而他们却花费数十亿美元从我们防卫的人那里买能源。我说，这怎么行？我们和他们争论过，结果是好的，他们支付了数千亿美元，否则你现在连北约都不会有。如果不是因为我，你不会有北约。作为美国的领导人，你是世界上最有权力的人。正如你提到的，不仅是最有名的，也是最有权力的人。如果你再次成为领导人，你将拥有前所未有的权力。就你自己的心理状态而言，这种权力会不会影响你看待世界的方式？不会，我认为不会。看看吧，我已经当了四年总统。

I could have done a big number in Hillary Clinton. I thought it looked terrible to take the president's wife and put her in prison. She's so lucky. I didn't do anything. She's so lucky. Hillary is a lucky woman because I had a lot of people pushing me to they wanted to they wanted to see something, but I had I could have done something very bad. I thought it looks so bad. Think of it. You have the president of the United States and you also had Secretary of State, right? She was. But you're going to put the president's wife in prison. And yet when I got out there, you know, they have all these hoaxes. They're all hoaxes, but they have all these dishonest hoaxes just like they did in the past with Russia, Russia, Russia. That was a hoax. The 51 different, you know, agencies or agents. That was a hoax. The whole thing was a hoax. The whole there was so many hoaxes and scams.

我本来可以对希拉里·克林顿造成很大麻烦的。我觉得把总统的妻子关进监狱看起来太糟糕了。她真走运。我没有做什么。她真的很幸运。希拉里是个幸运的女人，因为有很多人推着我，他们希望看到一些事情发生，但我没做什么。我觉得那看上去非常糟糕。想想看，你有美国总统，还有国务卿，对吧？她曾是。但是你要把总统的妻子关进监狱。然而，当我出来的时候，你知道，他们有很多骗局。那些都是骗局，就像他们过去对俄罗斯的那些骗局一样“俄罗斯，俄罗斯，俄罗斯”。那是个骗局。51个不同的机构或特工，那也是个骗局。整个事情都是骗局，太多的骗局和诈骗。

And but I didn't want to put her in jail. And I didn't and I explained it to people. You know, they say, lock her up, lock her up. It doesn't we won. I said, we don't want to put her in jail. We want to bring the country together. I want to bring the country together. You don't bring the country together by putting her in jail. But then when I got out, you know, they went to work on me. It's amazing. And they suffer from massive Trump derangement syndrome, TDS. And I don't know if they're it's curable from their standpoint. A lot of people are very interested in footage of UFOs. The Pentagon has released a few videos and there's been anecdotal reports from fighter pilots. So a lot of people want to know, will you help push the Pentagon to release more footage, which a lot of people claim is available?

我并不想把她关进监狱。我对人们也解释了这一点。你知道的，他们说“把她关起来，把她关起来”。但我们已经赢了。我说，我们不想把她关进监狱，我们想让国家团结。我想让国家团结起来。你不能通过把她关进监狱来实现国家团结。但当我离任后，他们却开始对付我。这真是让人惊讶。他们患有严重的“特朗普妄想症”（TDS），从他们的角度来看，我不知道这种情况是否能治愈。很多人对不明飞行物（UFO）的影像非常感兴趣，五角大楼已经发布了几段视频，还有战斗机飞行员的轶事报告。所以，很多人想知道，你会不会推动五角大楼发布更多视频，据说还有很多这类视频。

Oh, yes, sure. I would do that. I'd love to do that. I have to do that. But they also pushing me on Kennedy. And I did release a lot, but people come to me and thank me not to do it. But I'll be doing that very early on. Yeah, no, but I would do that. There's a moment where you had some hesitation about Epstein releasing some of the documents on Epstein. Why the hesitation?

哦，是的，当然可以。我愿意做那件事。我很乐意做那件事。我必须要做那件事。但是他们也在给我施压让我处理肯尼迪的事情。我确实公布了很多，但有人来找我并感谢我没公布。不过，我会尽早处理那件事。是的，不，我愿意做那件事。你曾对是否公开一些关于爱泼斯坦的文件犹豫过。为什么会有这种犹豫呢？

I don't think I mean, I'm not involved. I never went to his island. Fortunately, but a lot of people did. Why do you think so many smart, powerful people allowed him to get so close? He was a good salesman. He was, you know, he had a hardy type of guy. He had some nice assets that had throw around like islands. But a lot of big people went to that island. But fortunately, I was not one of them. It's just very strange for a lot of people that the list of clients that went to the island has not been made public. Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? Probably will be, by the way. So if you were able to, you'll be. Yeah, certainly take a look at it. Now Kennedy's interesting because it's so many years ago. You know, they do that for danger too, because, you know, in danger, certain people, etc, etc.

我觉得我没参与，我从没去过他的岛。幸运的是，很多人去了。你为什么认为那么多聪明、有权力的人让他靠得这么近？他是个不错的推销员，他很能干，还有一些像岛屿这样的优质资产可以炫耀。但是很多大人物都去了那个岛，而幸运的是，我不是其中之一。对于很多人来说，去过那个岛的客户名单没有公开，这非常奇怪。对吧，这很有趣，可能最终会公布。如果你有机会看到，一定要看看。提到肯尼迪，这是很多年前的事情了，他们这么做也是为了避免危险，因为有些人可能会受到威胁等等。

So Kennedy is very different from the Epstein thing. But the I'd be inclined to do the Epstein. I'd have no problem with it. That's great to hear. What gives you strength when you're getting attacked? You're one of the most attacked people in the world. I think you can't you can't care that much. I know people, they care so much about everything, like what people are saying. You can't care too much because you end up choking. One of the tragic things about life is that it ends. How often do you think about your death? Are you afraid of it? I have a friend who's very, very successful. And he's in his 80s, mid 80s. And he has been the exact same question. I said, I turned it around. I said, well, what about you? He said, I think about it every minute of every day. And then a week later, he called me to tell me something. And he starts off the conversation by going tick, tuck, tick, tuck. This is a dark person, you know, in a sense. But it is what it is. I mean, you know, if you're religious, you have, I think, a better feeling toward it. You know, you're supposed to go to heaven, ideally not hell, but you're supposed to go to heaven if you're good.

所以，肯尼迪的事情和爱泼斯坦的事情完全不同。但是我倾向于选择爱泼斯坦的，我对此没有问题。这很高兴听到。你在遭受攻击的时候，是什么给你力量？你是世界上最常被攻击的人之一。我觉得你不能太在意。我知道有些人他们非常在意一切，比如别人说了什么。你不能太在意，不然你会被压垮。人生的悲剧之一就是它终会结束。你多久会想到自己的死亡？你害怕它吗？我有一个非常成功的朋友，他八十多岁了。我问了他同样的问题，我反问他说，你呢？他说，我每时每刻都在想这个问题。一个星期后，他打电话告诉我一些事情，开头就说Tick, tock, tick, tock。这是个心态比较黑暗的人，但事情就是这样。如果你信教，我觉得你会对死亡有更好的看法，你应该会上天堂，理想情况下不会下地狱，但如果你做得好，你应该会上天堂。

I think our country is missing a lot of religion. I think it really was a much better place with religion. It was some it was almost a guide to a certain extent. It was a guide. You want to be good to people without religion. There's no real there. No guardrails. I'd love to see us get back to religion, more religion in this country. Well, Mr. President, thank you for putting yourself out there. And thank you for talking to look. I love the country. I want to see the country be great. And we have a real chance of doing it, but it's our last chance. And I appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Donald Trump. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now as I've started doing here at the end of some episodes, let me make a few comments and answer a few questions. If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to let's freedom and dot com slash AMA or get in touch with me for whatever other reason at lex the way it's been, I would say the most unlikely journey. And on most days, I barely feel like I know what I'm doing, but I wanted to talk about how I approach these conversations. Now, each conversation is its own unique puzzle.

我认为我们的国家缺少很多宗教信仰。我觉得有宗教的时代，国家要好得多。宗教在某种程度上几乎是一种指引，是一种指南。在没有宗教的情况下，你很难真正做到善待他人，没有什么道德底线。我希望看到我们国家能够重新回归有更多的宗教信仰。总统先生，感谢您站出来，感谢您谈论这些。我热爱这个国家，希望它变得更加伟大，我们确实有机会做到这一点，但这是我们的最后机会了。我非常感激，谢谢您。感谢您收听与唐纳德·特朗普的对话。要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，像我在一些节目的结尾所做的那样，让我发表评论并回答一些问题。如果您想提交问题，包括音频和视频形式，请访问 letsfreedomand.com/AMA 或通过其他方式与我联系。从某种程度上说，这是一次最不可能的旅程。大多数时候，我几乎感觉自己不知道在做什么，但我想谈谈我是如何处理这些对话的。每次对话都是一个独特的谜题。

So I can't speak generally to how I approach these, but here it may be useful to describe how I approach conversations with world leaders, of which I hope to have many more and do a better job every time. I read a lot of history. And I admire the historian perspective. As an example, I admire William Shire, the author of many books on Hitler, including the rise and fall of the third Reich. He was there and lived through it and covered it objectively to the degree that one could academic historians, by the way, criticize them for being a poor historian because he editorialized a little too much. I think those same folks criticized Dan Carlin and his hardcore history podcast. I respect their criticism, but I fundamentally disagree. So in these conversations with world leaders, I try to put on my historian hat. I think in the realm of truth and public discourse, there's a spectrum between the ephemeral and the eternal, the outraged mob and clickbait journalists are often focused on the ephemeral, the current thing, the current viral shitstormer of mockery and derision. But when the battle of the day is done, most of it will be forgotten. A few true ideas will remain and those the historian hopes to capture. Now, this is much easier said than done. It's not just about having the right ideals and the integrity to stick by them. It's not even just about having the actual skill of talking, which I still think I suck at, but let's say it's a work in progress. You also have to make the scheduling work and set up the entirety of the environment in a way that is conducive to such a conversation. This is hard, really hard with political and business leaders. They are usually super busy and in some cases, super nervous because well, they've been screwed over so many times with clickbait got you journalism. So to convince them and their team to talk for two, three, four, five hours is hard. And I do think a good conversation requires that kind of duration. And I've been thinking a lot about why. I don't think it's just about needing the actual time of three hours to cover all the content. I think the longer form with a hypothetical skilled conversationalist relaxes things. And allows people to go on tangents and to banter about the details because I think it's in the details that the beautiful complexity of the person is brought to light. Anyway, I look forward to talking to more world leaders and doing a better job every time, as I said, I would love to do interviews with Kamala Harris and some other political figures on the left and right, including Tim Walls, ALC, Bernie, Barack Obama, Bill and Hillary. And on the right, JD Vance, Vivek, George W and so on.

所以，我不能泛泛而谈我是如何处理这些事情的，但在这里，描述一下我与世界领导人对话的方法或许是有用的，我希望能与更多的领导人对话，并且每次都做得更好。我阅读了很多历史作品，并且钦佩历史学家的视角。举个例子，我敬佩威廉·夏伊勒，他是《第三帝国的兴亡》等关于希特勒的多本书的作者。他身临其境，客观地记录了那段历史，尽可能做到客观。当然，某些学术历史学家批评他不是一个好的历史学家，因为他夹带了太多个人评述。我认为那些人也批评了丹·卡林和他的《Hardcore History》播客。我尊重他们的批评，但我根本不认同他们的观点。 在与世界领导人的对话中，我尽量戴上历史学家的帽子。我认为在真理和公共话语领域中，存在从易逝到永恒的一个光谱，愤怒的群体和点击诱饵记者经常关注易逝的、当前的事件，那些现下的热点嘲讽和讥笑。但当当天的战斗结束时，大部分将被遗忘，只有少数的真理会被留下，而历史学家希望能捕捉到那些真理。当然，这说起来容易做起来难。这不仅仅是拥有正确的理想和坚持这些理想的诚信问题。这甚至不仅仅需要会谈话的技能，我仍然觉得自己在这方面很糟糕，但这方面我在努力改进中。此外，你还必须安排好时间表，并把整个环境布置得利于这样的对话。这非常难，尤其是与政治和商业领导人进行这样对话时，他们通常非常忙碌，并且在某些情况下非常紧张，因为他们已经多次被点击诱饵新闻坑害了。所以，要说服他们及其团队进行两到五小时的对话非常困难。我确实认为一次好的对话需要这么长的时间，而我也一直在思考原因。我认为长时间的对话不仅仅是为了覆盖所有内容。我认为长时间的对话能够使对方放松，并让人们讨论细节和交流，因为我认为正是在这些细节中，人性的复杂之美才得以体现。 无论如何，我期待与更多的世界领导人对话，并且每次都做得更好，正如我所说，我希望能与卡马拉·哈里斯及其他一些左右政治人物进行访谈，包括蒂姆·沃尔兹，AOC，伯尼·桑德斯，巴拉克·奥巴马，比尔和希拉里。在右派这边，则有JD·范斯，维韦克，乔治·W·布什等等。

And on the topic of politics, let me say as an immigrant, I love this country, the United States of America. I do believe it is the greatest nation on earth. And I'm grateful for the people on the left and the right who step into the arena of politics to fight for this country that I do believe they all love as well. I have reached out to Kamala Harris, but not many of the others. I probably should do a better job with that. But I've been doing most of this myself, all the retrial scheduling research prep, recording and so on. And on top of that, I very much have been suffering from imposter syndrome with the voice in my head constantly pointing out when I'm doing a shitty job. Plus a few folks graciously remind me on the internet, the very same sentiment of this aforementioned voice. All of this while I have the option of just hiding away at MIT, programming robots and doing some cool AI research with a few grad students or maybe joining an AI company or maybe starting my own.

谈到政治，我作为一个移民，想说我热爱这个国家——美利坚合众国。我确实相信它是世界上最伟大的国家。我也感激那些左派和右派进入政治舞台，为这个国家奋斗的人，我相信他们也都同样热爱这个国家。我曾联系过卡马拉·哈里斯，但其他人联系得不多，我可能应该在这方面做得更好。不过大部分工作一直都是我自己在做，包括重审排期、研究准备、录音等等。而且，我一直深受冒名顶替综合症的困扰，脑海中的声音不断指出我做得很糟的地方。还有一些人在网上好心地提醒我这些与前述声音类似的感想。尽管如此，我仍然选择面对这些，而不是躲在麻省理工学院，编程机器人，和一些研究生一起做些酷酷的人工智能研究，或者加入某个AI公司，甚至创办自己的公司。

All these options make me truly happy. But like I said, most days I barely know what I'm doing. So who knows what the future holds most importantly, I'm forever grateful for all of you, for your patience and your support throughout this rollercoaster of the life I've been on. I love you all. OK, now let me go on to some of the questions that people had. I was asked by a few people to comment on Pavel Durov rest and on X being banned in Brazil. Let me first briefly comment on the Durov rest. So basic facts, Pavel Durov is CEO of Telegram, which is a messenger app that has end to end encryption mode.

所有这些选择都让我感到非常开心。但就像我说的，大多数日子里我几乎不知道自己在做什么。所以，谁知道未来会怎样呢？最重要的是，我永远感激你们所有人，感谢你们在我这段起伏不定的人生中给予的耐心和支持。我爱你们所有人。好了，现在让我来回答一些大家提出的问题。有几个人让我评论一下Pavel Durov的休息和X在巴西被禁的事情。首先让我简要评论一下Durov的休息。基本情况是，Pavel Durov是Telegram的CEO，这是一个具有端到端加密模式的通讯应用。

It's not on by default. And most people don't use the end to end encryption, but some do. Pavel was arrested in France on a long list of charges related to, quote, unquote, criminal activity carried out on the telegram platform and for, quote, unquote, providing unlicensed cryptology services. I think Telegram is indeed used for criminal activity by a small minority of its users, for example, by terrorist groups to communicate. And I think we all agree that terrorism is bad. But here's the problem. As the old saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

默认情况下它不是开启的。大多数人不使用端到端加密，但有些人会用。Pavel在法国被捕，罪名涉及大量“在电报平台上进行的犯罪活动”和“提供未经许可的加密服务”。我认为，确实有一小部分电报用户将其用于犯罪活动，比如恐怖组织用来交流。而我认为，我们都同意恐怖主义是坏的。但问题在于，正如老话所说，一个人的恐怖分子可能是另一个人的自由斗士。

And there are many cases in which the world unilaterally agrees who the terrorists are, but there are other cases when governments, especially authoritarian and client governments tend to progandize and just call whoever's in the opposition, whoever opposes them, terrorists. There is some room for nuance here, but to me, at this time, it seems to obviously be a power grab by government wanting to have backdoor access into every platform so they can have censorship power against the opposition. I think generally governments stay out of censoring or even pressuring social media platforms. And I think arresting a CEO of a tech company for the things said on the platform he built is just nuts.

而且在很多情况下，世界各国一致认同谁是恐怖分子，但在其他情况下，一些政府，特别是威权政府和附庸政府，往往会进行宣传，把反对他们的人称作恐怖分子。这其中有一些微妙之处，但在我看来，目前这显然是政府试图获取每个平台的后门访问权，以便对反对派进行审查的一种权力攫取。一般来说，政府不会插手审查甚至对社交媒体平台施压。而且我认为，仅仅因为某个科技公司创办的平台上发表的言论就逮捕该公司的CEO，这简直是疯了。

It has a chilling effect on him, on people working at Telegram and on people working at every social media company. And also people thinking of launching a new social media company. Same as the case of X being banned in Brazil. It's, I think, a power grab by El Shandre de Marias, a Supreme Court justice in Brazil. He ordered X to block certain accounts that are spreading quote unquote misinformation. Elon and X denied the request. Then Demarias threatened to arrest X representatives in Brazil. And in response to that, X pulled the representatives out of Brazil, obviously to protect them. And now X having no representatives in Brazil apparently violates the law based on this Demarias banned X in Brazil.

这对他、对Telegram的员工以及所有社交媒体公司的员工都产生了寒蝉效应，也让那些考虑创办新社交媒体公司的人感到寒意。就像X被巴西禁令的情况一样，我认为这是巴西最高法院法官El Shandre de Marias的权力掠夺。他命令X封禁某些传播所谓“虚假信息”的账户。Elon和X拒绝了这个请求，然后Demarias威胁要逮捕X在巴西的代表。作为回应，X将其代表撤出巴西，显然是为了保护他们。而现在，X在巴西没有代表，显然违反了法律，因此Demarias在巴西禁用了X。

Once again, it's an authoritarian figure seeking censorship power over the channels of communication. I understand that this is complicated because there are evil people in the world. And part of the role of government is to protect us from those evil people. But as Benjamin Franklin said, those who can give up a central liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. So it's a trade off. But I think in many places in the world, many governments have leaned too far away at this time from liberty. OK, next up, I got a question on AI, which I emotionally connected with. I'll condense it as follows. Hello, Lex. I'm a programmer and I have a deep fear of slipping into irrelevance because I am worried that AI will soon exceed my programming skills. Let me first say that I relate to your fear. It's scary to have a thing that gives you a career and gives you meaning to be taken away.

再一次，有一个专制人物在寻求对通讯渠道的审查权力。我理解这是复杂的，因为世界上确实有邪恶的人。政府的一部分职责是保护我们免受那些邪恶之人的侵害。然而，正如本杰明·富兰克林所说的那样，那些为了获得短暂安全而放弃根本自由的人既不配拥有自由，也不配拥有安全。所以这是一个权衡取舍的问题。但我认为在世界上的许多地方，许多政府在当前的情况下过于偏离自由的方向。 好，接下来我收到了一个关于人工智能的问题，这个问题我情感上很有共鸣。我简化如下：你好，Lex。我是一名程序员，深深地担心自己会变得无关紧要，因为我忧虑人工智能很快会超过我的编程技能。首先，我想说我能理解你的恐惧。让你拥有职业和意义的东西被夺走的确是可怕的。

For me, programming is a passion. And if not for this podcast, it would probably at least in part be my profession. So I get an uncomfortable feeling every time Claude, the LMI use for coding at this time, just writes a lot of excellent approximately correct code. I think you can make a good case that it already exceeds the skill of many programmers, at least in the same way that the collective intelligence of stack overflow exceeds the skill of many programmers, many individual programmers. But in many ways, it still does not. But I think eventually more and more, the task, the professional programming will be one of writing natural language prompts. I think the right thing to do and what I'm at least doing is to ride the wave of the ever improving code generating LLMs and keep transforming myself into a big picture designer versus low level tinkerer. What I'm doing and what I recommend you do is continually switch to whatever state the R tool is for generating code.

对我来说，编程是一种热爱。如果不是因为这个播客，编程可能至少会部分成为我的职业。所以每当我使用Claude，一个我目前用来编写代码的语言模型，它写出大量优秀但大致正确的代码时，我总会感到不安。我认为你可以很好地论证它的水平已经超越了很多程序员，至少像Stack Overflow的集体智慧超过了很多单个程序员的水平一样。但在许多方面，它仍然不如人类。然而，我认为最终，越来越多的情况下，职业编程的任务将变成撰写自然语言提示。我认为我们应该做的事情，也是我至少在做的事情，是乘着不断改进的代码生成大模型（LLM）的浪潮，并将自己不断转变为一个全局设计师，而不是低层次的修补工。我正在做的，也是我建议你做的，就是不断适应当前用于生成代码的最新工具。

So for me currently, I recently switched from VS code to cursor. And before that, it was e-maxed to the S code switch. So cursor is this editor that's based on VS code that leans heavily on LLMs and integrates the code generation really nicely into the editing process. So it makes it super easy to continually use the LLMs. So what I would advise and what I'm trying to do myself is to learn how to use it into master's code generation capabilities. I personally try to now allocate a significant amount of time to designing with natural language first versus writing code from scratch. So using my understanding of programming to edit the code that's generated by the LLM versus sort of writing it from scratch and then using the LLM to generate small parts of the code. I see this as a skill that I should develop in parallel to my programming skill. I think this applies to many other careers too.

对我来说，目前我刚从VS Code转到了Cursor。在那之前，我从E-maxed转到了S Code。Cursor是一个基于VS Code的编辑器，它大量利用了大语言模型(LLM)，并且将代码生成很好地集成到编辑过程中。这样一来，使用LLM变得非常方便。所以我的建议，也是我自己正在尝试的，就是学习如何运用它来掌握代码生成的能力。我个人现在尽量分配大量时间，先用自然语言来设计，而不是从零开始写代码。我通过编辑LLM生成的代码来利用我对编程的理解，而不是从头开始写代码，然后再用LLM生成其中的小部分。我认为这是一项我应该与编程技能并行发展的技能。我相信这对许多其他职业也适用。

Don't compete with AI for your job. Learn to use the AI to do that job better. But yes, it is scary and some deep sort of human level, the threat of being replaced. But at least I think we'll be OK. All right, next up, I got a very nice audio message and question from a gentleman who is 27 and feeling a lot of anxiety about the future. Just recently, he graduated with a bachelor's degree and he's thinking about going to grad school for biomedical engineering. But there is a lot of anxiety. He mentioned anxiety many times in the message. It took him an extra while to get his degree. So he mentioned he would be 32 by the time he's done with his PhD. So it's a big investment, but he said in his heart, he feels like he's a scientist. I think that's the most important part of his message, of your message. By the way, I'll figure out how to best include audio and video messages in future episodes now onto the question.

不要与人工智能竞争你的工作。学会使用人工智能来更好地完成这项工作。不过，是的，从某种深层次的人类角度来看，被取代的威胁确实令人害怕。但至少我认为我们会没事的。好吧，接下来，我收到了一位27岁的男士发来的非常好的语音信息和问题。他对未来感到很焦虑。最近他刚刚获得了学士学位，现在正在考虑去读生物医学工程的研究生。但他很焦虑，在信息中多次提到焦虑。他获得学位花了比别人更长的时间，所以他说到他完成博士学位时将会是32岁。这是一个很大的投资，但他说在他内心深处，他觉得自己是个科学家。我认为这是你信息中最重要的部分。顺便说一下，我会想办法在未来的节目中更好地包含音频和视频信息。现在进入到问题部分。

So thank you for telling me your story and for submitting the question. My own life story is similar to yours. I went to Drexel University for my bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees. And I took a while just as you're doing. I did a lot of non-standard things that weren't any good for some hypothetical career I'm supposed to have. I trained and competed in Judo and Jiu Jitsu for my entire 20s. Got a black belt from it. I wrote a lot, including a lot of really crappy poetry. I read a large amount of non-technical books, history, philosophy and literature. I took courses on literature and philosophy that weren't at all required for my computer science and electrical engineering degrees, like a course on James Joyce. I played guitar in bars around town.

感谢你告诉我你的故事并提交问题。我的人生经历和你很相似。我在德雷克塞尔大学完成了学士、硕士和博士学位。和你一样，我花了很长时间在这些学位上。我做了很多对我假设的职业发展没有明显好处的事情。我在整个二十多岁期间都在训练和参加柔道和巴西柔术的比赛，并获得了黑带。我写了很多，包括许多糟糕的诗歌。我阅读了大量的非技术类书籍，如历史、哲学和文学。我选修了许多与我的计算机科学和电气工程学位毫无关系的文学和哲学课程，比如一门关于詹姆斯·乔伊斯的课程。我还在城里的酒吧里弹吉他。

I took a lot of technical classes, many, for example, on theoretical computer science, that were way more than were needed for the degree. I did a lot of research and I coded up a bunch of projects that didn't directly contribute to my dissertation. It was pure curiosity and the joy of exploring. So like you, I took the long way home, as they say, and I regret none of it. Throughout that, people around me and even people who loved me wanted me to hurry up and to focus, especially because I had very little money. And so I had a sense like time was running out for me to take the needed steps towards a reasonable career. And just like you, I was filled with anxiety and I still am filled with anxiety to this day. But I think the right thing to do is not to run away from the anxiety, but to lean into it and channel it into pursuing with everything you got, the things you're passionate about.

我上了很多技术课程，例如，理论计算机科学的课程，远远超过学位所需。我做了很多研究，还编写了许多项目，虽然这些项目并不直接对我的论文有贡献。这纯粹是出于好奇和探索的乐趣。就像你一样，可以说，我选择了绕远路，但我对此毫不后悔。在这过程中，周围的人，甚至爱我的人都希望我快点完成学业和专注，尤其是因为我几乎没有钱。所以我感觉时间在逼迫我去采取必要的步骤，走向一份体面的职业。和你一样，我充满了焦虑，直到今天也是如此。但我认为正确的做法不是逃避焦虑，而是面对它，并将其转化为全力追求自己热爱的事业的动力。

As you said, very importantly, in your heart, you know you're a scientist. So that's it. You know exactly what to do. Pursue the desire to be a scientist with everything you got. Get to a good grad school, find a good advisor and do epic shit with them. And it may turn out in the end that your life will have unexpected chapters, but as long as you're chasing dreams and goals with absolute unwavering dedication, good stuff will come with it. And also try your best to be a good person. This might be a good place to read the words if by Roger Kipling that I often return to when I feel lost and I'm looking for guidance on how to be a better man.

就像你说的，最重要的是，在你心里，你知道自己是个科学家。所以就这样吧。你知道该怎么做。用你所拥有的一切去追求成为科学家的愿望。去好的研究生院，找到一个好的导师，并和他们一起做出伟大的成就。最终你的生活可能会有意想不到的篇章，但只要你以坚定不移的决心追逐梦想和目标，好事就会随之而来。同时也尽力成为一个好人。这时候，可以读一下鲁德亚德·吉卜林的《如果》这首诗，当我感到迷茫、寻求如何成为更好的人时，我经常读这首诗。

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, but make allowance for their doubting to, if you can wait and more be tired by waiting or being lied about, don't deal in lies or being hated. Don't give way to hating and yet don't look too good or talk too wise. If you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thoughts your aim, if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same.

如果在别人都失去理智并把责任推到你身上时，你仍能保持冷静；如果在所有人都怀疑你时，你仍能相信自己，同时理解他们的怀疑；如果你能耐心等待，即使等待让你感到疲倦，或者在被人诬陷时，不屈服于谎言；如果你能面对憎恨，却不心怀怨恨，也不自视过高或故作聪明；如果你能怀抱梦想但不被梦想操控，能够思考但不让思想成为唯一目标；如果你能同顺境和逆境相遇，并把这两者视作一样的欺骗，那么你就达到了真正的平静和智慧。

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by naves to make a trap for fools or watch the things you gave your life to broken and stoop and build them up with worn out tools. If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss. If you can force your heart to nerve and sin you to serve your turn long after they're gone and so hold on when there's nothing in you except the will which says to them hold on. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings or lose the common touch, if neither foes, the loving friends can hurt you. If all men count with you, but none too much. If you can feel down for giving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run yours is the earth and everything that's in it and which is more you'll be a man, my son. Thank you for listening and see you next time.

如果你能忍受听到你所说的真理被无赖歪曲，变成愚人的陷阱；如果你能目睹自己为之倾注生命的事业破碎，并弯腰用破旧的工具将其重建；如果你能把所有的赢利堆成一堆，在一次抛掷中冒险一搏，输了也能从头再来，从不对损失说一句抱怨；如果你能强迫自己的心灵、神经和力量，在它们消失之后仍为你效力，并在你一无所有时，仅凭意志告诉自己坚持下去；如果你能和大众交谈却保持美德，与王者同行却不失平民本色；如果敌人或挚友都无法伤害你，如果所有人都依赖你，但没有一个人过于依赖你；如果你能在每一分钟里都做到分秒不空过，那么整个世界和其中的一切都将属于你，更重要的是——你将成为一个真正的男子汉，我的儿子。感谢您的聆听，下次再见。