#442 – Donald Trump Interview

The following is a conversation with Donald Trump on this, the Lex Friedman podcast. And now a quick few second mention, a response. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got ground news for a nonpartisan news aggregator, uncored for unifying your machine learning stack, a sleep for naps, net suite for business and Shopify for e-commerce. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to get in touch with me for a multitude of reasons, could alexphremid.com slash contact. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too.

以下是与唐纳德·特朗普在 Lex Friedman 播客上的对话。现在先快速提一下，回应。详细信息请查看描述。这是支持此播客的最佳方式。我们有 Ground News 作为一个无党派新闻聚合器，Uncored 用于统一你的机器学习堆栈，还有适合小憩的睡眠应用A Sleep，NetSuite 用于商业，Shopify 用于电子商务。朋友们，选择适合你们的。此外，如果你出于多种原因想联系我，可以访问 alexphremid.com/contact。现在开始正式的广告部分。按照惯例，中间不会插播广告。我尽量让这些广告有趣一些，但如果你跳过了，请务必仍然查看一下这些赞助商。我喜欢他们的产品，也许你也会喜欢。

This episode is brought to you by one of my favorite websites, ground news, a non partisan news aggregator I use to compare media coverage from across the political spectrum. The point is to see every side of the story, especially political stories and come to your own conclusion. We've been talking about it on this podcast, on many podcasts, just how biased specific media sources are, like most problems in the world. This can be explained by incentives. The funding is drying out for news organizations. So they more and more rely on clickbait journalism and clickbait journalism requires extreme polarization. So just like in the Soviet Union, when everyone knew the official sources was propaganda, you have to arrive at the truth by getting a lot of sources and integrating them yourself and understanding where exactly the truth lies because it often lies in the nuance in the details in the middle.

本集节目由我最喜欢的网站之一 Ground News 赞助。Ground News 是一个无党派的新闻聚合平台，我经常用它来比较来自不同政治光谱的媒体报道。这么做的目的是为了看到故事的各个方面，特别是政治故事，并自己得出结论。在这个播客和许多其他播客中，我们一直在谈论特定媒体资源的偏见问题。就像世界上的大多数问题一样，这可以通过激励机制来解释。新闻机构的资金在枯竭，他们越来越多地依赖吸引眼球的新闻，而这种新闻需要极端的两极分化。就像在苏联时期，大家都知道官方来源是宣传，你必须通过获取大量信息来源并自己整合，来弄清事实真相，因为真相通常隐藏在细节的中间地带、细微之处。

Anyway, all that said, it's obvious that this is a thing that can be solved with a tech solution. And that's exactly what ground news is. Every story they provide comes with a breakdown of political bias and reliability of sources. And it offers multiple perspectives. It's just a really, really nice website. Oh, and a cool feature. The blind spot feed shows discrepancies in media coverage and the left and the right. So go to groundnews.com slash Lex to get 40% off the ground news vantage plan, giving you access to all of their features that's ground, G.R.O. UND news.com slash Lex.

无论如何，说了这么多，很明显这是一个可以通过技术解决的问题。而这正是 Ground News 所做的工作。他们提供的每个故事都会附带政治偏见和来源可靠性的分析，并且提供多种视角。这是一个非常棒的网站。哦，还有一个很酷的功能，"盲点推送"会显示左翼和右翼媒体报道中的差异。所以访问 groundnews.com/lex 可以获得 Ground News Vantage 计划的 40% 折扣，让你可以使用他们的所有功能。这个网站是 G.R.O.U.N.D news.com/lex。

This episode is also brought to you by Enchord, a new sponsor. It's a platform that provides data focused AI tooling for data annotation, curation and management and for model evaluation and a much of other stuff, basically the whole machine learning stack. But what they do really well is focus on the data side of machine learning, which does not often enough get the love it deserves. Many of the things they do go under the flag of active learning. This is a topic that's always been fascinating to me, but they just they pull off the whole thing really well. I just have to celebrate them for doing a great job just on the interface, getting the annotation into face easy and natural and efficient is amazing. Like days after Sam to the meta segment, anything model to was released, they integrated it into their tooling. So you can run this real time object segmentation model inside their tool. And this works on both images and videos. And so provides you in initial segmentation that you can then adjust on top of that, they provide instructions on how you can fine tune the segment that you think model such that it can perform better based on the annotations that you provide.

本次节目也得到了新赞助商 Enchord 的支持。Enchord 是一个平台，提供专注于数据注释、整理和管理，并用于模型评估以及其他许多功能的 AI 工具，基本涵盖了整个机器学习的流程。他们的特别之处在于，非常注重机器学习中的数据部分，而这一部分常常未获得应有的重视。他们所做的许多事情都属于主动学习（Active Learning）范畴。这一直是一个令我着迷的话题，但他们真的做得非常出色。我必须赞扬他们在界面设计上的优秀表现，使数据注释变得简单、自然且高效。比如在 Sam 的 Meta Segment Anything 模型发布的几天后，他们就将其集成到了他们的工具中。这样，你可以在他们的平台上实时运行这个对象分割模型，而且可以应用于图像和视频，为你提供初步的分割结果，然后你可以在此基础上进行调整。此外，他们还提供了如何根据你提供的注释微调分割模型的指导，以便模型表现得更好。

You also have a bunch of other data management kind of features. For example, indexing, you can unify multimodal data from local and from cloud into one platform and you can do all kinds of stuff like visualize it. You can search it. You can do granular curation. I mean, it's just amazing. In fact, these folks put together the whole machine learning stack into one place. I just I don't know, feels new with joy. So thank you to them. And if you're a person or company that is using machine learning, go try out Encore to curate annotate and manage your AI data at encord.com slash Lex. That's encord.com slash Lex.

你还可以利用许多其他数据管理功能。例如，通过索引，你可以将本地和云端的多模态数据统一到一个平台上，你可以进行各种操作，比如可视化、搜索和细致管理。实在是太神奇了。事实上，这些人把整个机器学习的技术栈整合到了一个地方。我感到无比喜悦。所以要特别感谢他们。如果你是一个人或一家公司，正在使用机器学习，请尝试使用Encore在encord.com/lex进行AI数据的策划、注释和管理。地址是encord.com/lex。

This episode is also brought to you by A sleep as pod for ultra. The night before I had a conversation with Donald Trump, I didn't sleep in my hate sleep. I wasn't home. And so I didn't sleep too well. I was going in my head through all the positive trajectories that conversation could go. But primarily there was a temperature issue. Because the bed wasn't cold, like it would be with a sleep. I just can't understand how amazing it is to have a cold bed with a warm blanket. It's an escape from the turmoil of the world. This temporary respite from the chaos, from the suffering that is life. And I wonder why it is that the world I saw on I wasca is not the world I've ever seen in my dreams. Where was it that I was able to go with the help of this rocket ship that I couldn't go while taking an app? What is the human mind capable of? That's what psychedelics make me think. What are the limits of my mind? The limits of my visualization capability, the limits of my cognition capability, the limits of my consciousness. I wonder. Anyway, go to hate sleep.com slash Lex and use code Lex to get 350 bucks off the pod for ultra.

这集节目还要感谢A Sleep as Pod for Ultra的赞助。头一天晚上，我与唐纳德·特朗普谈了一次话，但我没怎么睡好。我没在家，也没在我讨厌的睡眠中度过，因此睡得不好。我一直在脑子里想着那次对话可能带来的各种积极结果，但主要的问题还是温度。因为床不够冷，如果用了A Sleep就会不一样。我真的难以形容有一个冷床配上暖毯是多么美妙。这是一种从混乱世界中逃离的方式，是一种暂时远离生活纷扰和痛苦的慰藉。我不禁好奇，为什么我在使用伊瓦斯卡（一种迷幻药物）时看到的世界，从未在我的梦中出现过。借助这个“火箭飞船”，我能去到哪些地方，而这些地方我在午睡时无法到达？人类的心智到底有多强大？这就是迷幻药物让我思考的问题。我心智的极限在哪里？我的想象力、认知能力和意识的极限在哪里？我很好奇。总之，访问hatesleep.com/lex，使用优惠码Lex可享受Pod for Ultra 350美元的折扣。

This episode is also brought to you by NetSuite, an all in one cloud business management system. It's the machine within the machine of capitalism. It helps you manage all the disparate components of a company, financials, HR inventory, e-commerce and so on. I speak to it at the end of this episode in the AMA. All the amazing possibilities I have in my life to build, to create. And one of them is indeed running a company. Every time I talk about NetSuite, I'm pulled back into this thought. If for a brief moment, sometimes I feel like it is not me that decides where my life goes, but some kind of winds of fortune. More and more, I'm starting to realize that I'm less the guy who plans and more the guy who follows this instinct. But anyway, it does seem that if I get a chance to follow down this path, it will be difficult, but fulfilling one. And if you are walking down that path, join over 37,000 companies that have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle. Take advantage of NetSuite's flexible financing planet, NetSuite.com slash Lux, that's NetSuite.com slash Lux.

本集特别感谢NetSuite的赞助，它是一款一体化的云端商业管理系统，是资本主义机器中的机器。它帮助你管理公司的各种分散组件，包括财务、人力资源、库存、电子商务等等。在本集最后的AMA部分，我会详细介绍它。我的生活中有很多奇妙的可能性可以去创造和建设，其中之一确实是经营一家公司。每次谈到NetSuite，我都会被拉回到这样的思考：有时候我感觉并不是我在决定自己的生活走向，而是某种幸运之风在推动。越来越多地，我开始意识到，与其说我是那个精心计划的人，不如说我是那个跟随直觉的人。不管怎样，如果有机会走上这条路，尽管会很艰难，但也会是充实的。如果你也在这条路上前行，请加入超过37,000家已经升级到Oracle NetSuite的公司。利用NetSuite灵活的融资计划，访问NetSuite.com slash Lux，那就是NetSuite.com slash Lux。

This episode is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store. I, even I am selling shirts on Lexviva.com slash store. I've been wearing this shirt. That says birds aren't real. If you're not aware, it's a conspiracy theory that birds aren't real, like, like the name of the conspiracy theory suggests. And that in fact, the birds we see in the sky are drones used by the government to engage in mass surveillance of a citizenry. So I have actually two birds aren't real shirts. In one of them, it says birds aren't real and really big ladders and I wear it around town and I get to start conversations with some interesting people. I think the shirts you wear create opportunities for discovering interesting people. So think of it that way. Merch as gateway for conversation. And if you want to sell gateways of conversations or other kinds of products, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash Lex. That's all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash Lex to take your business to the next level today.

本集节目由 Shopify 赞助，Shopify 是一个让任何人都可以创建漂亮的在线商店并在任何地方销售的平台。我自己也在 Lexviva.com/store 上卖T恤。我一直穿着一件写着 "Birds Aren't Real"（鸟类不存在）的T恤。如果你不知道，这是一个阴谋论，认为鸟类其实是不存在的，就像这个阴谋论的名字所暗示的那样。实际上，我们看到的天空中的鸟是政府用来进行大规模监视的无人机。我有两件 "Birds Aren't Real" 的T恤，其中一件上面用很大的字写着 "Birds Aren't Real"，我穿着它在城里闲逛，可以和有趣的人开始聊些话题。我觉得你穿的T恤可以为你创建发现有趣人的机会。所以，换个角度想，商品可以成为交谈的媒介。如果你也想销售这种交谈的媒介或其他类型的产品，你可以前往 Shopify.com/Lex（小写）注册，进行每月1美元的试用。访问 Shopify.com/Lex，今天就将你的业务提升到一个新的水平吧。

This is a Lex treatment podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now to your friends, here's Donald Trump. They're getting smaller and smaller. They're getting smaller. Right. I mean, people do respect you more when you have a big camera for some. No, it's cool. And about 20 guys that you pay a fortune to. All right. Okay. You said that you love winning and you have won a lot in life in real estate, in business, in TV, in politics. So let me start with a mindset, a psychology question. What drives you more? The love of winning or the hate of losing? Maybe equally, maybe both. I don't like losing and I do like winning. I've never thought of it as to which is more of a driving force.

这是一个Lex Treatment播客为其提供支持。请在描述中查看我们的赞助商。现在，各位朋友，欢迎唐纳德·特朗普。他们越来越少了。对，我是说，当你有一个大相机和大约20个你花大价钱聘请的人时，人们确实会更多地尊重你。好吧。你说你喜欢赢，你在房地产、商业、电视和政治方面都赢了很多。所以让我先问一个关于心态、心理的问题。是什么更能驱动你，赢的喜悦还是输的厌恶？也许两者都一样，也许都是。我不喜欢输，但我喜欢赢。我从没想过哪个是更大的驱动力。

You've been close with a lot of the greats in sport. You think about Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali. You have people like Michael Jordan who I think hate losing more than anybody. So what do you learn from those guys? Well, they do have something different. You know, the great champions have something very different, like the sports champions and you know, you have champions in other fields, but you see it more readily in sports. You see it over a weekend or you see it during a game and you see that certain people stand out and they keep they keep standing out. But it's there for you. It doesn't take a lifetime to find out that somebody was a winner or a loser.

你接触过许多体育界的伟大人物。比如说，你想到老虎伍兹、穆罕默德·阿里，还有像迈克尔·乔丹这样的人，我认为他是最讨厌失败的人之一。那么你从这些人身上学到了什么呢？嗯，他们确实有一些与众不同的特质。你知道，伟大的冠军总是有些不同，不论是体育冠军还是其他领域的冠军，但在体育界这种特质更加显而易见。你可以在一个周末或一场比赛中看到，某些人会脱颖而出，并且他们一直会表现突出。你可以很快看出某个人是赢家还是输家，而不需要花一辈子的时间去发现。

And so the sports thing is very interesting, but you know, I play golf with different people and you have. There's a different mindset among champions. There's really a very different mindset. There's a different, there's a different thought process. You know, talent wise, sometimes you can't tell the difference in talent, but at the end of a weekend, they seem to win. And it's very interesting. Like as an example, a tiger or Jack Nicholas, he was a phenomenal winner. And he does have a different way about him. And Tiger has a different way about him. And Michael Jordan, and there's never one. You would think that there'd be one way Arnold Palmer was the nicest guy you'd ever meet. And then you have some champions that aren't really nice. They're just focused on doing their job.

所以，体育这个领域非常有趣。你知道，我会和不同的人打高尔夫球，你会发现，在冠军之间存在一种不同心态。这种心态真的很不一样，思维方式也不一样。有时候在天赋上你看不出差别，但到周末比赛结束时，他们似乎总能赢。举个例子，像老虎伍兹或杰克·尼克劳斯，他是个非凡的赢家，他确实有一种不同的方式。老虎伍兹有他自己的独特方式，迈克尔·乔丹也是这样。你会认为冠军只有一种模式，但实际上并非如此。比如阿诺德·帕尔默是你能遇到的最友善的人之一，而有些冠军选手可能并不友善，他们只是专注于完成自己的任务。

So you have, you know, there's not one type of person. But the one thing I would say that everybody seems to have in common is they're very driven, they're driven like beyond. They don't seem to give up easily. They don't give up. They don't give up, but they do seem to be, you know, they have a passion that's maybe more than people that don't do as well. You've said that politics is a dirty game. Yeah, I just a dirty game. That's certainly true. So if it is a game, how do you win at that game? Well, you win at that game by getting the word out. And by using sense, you have to have a feeling where it's going. You also have to have a feeling of what's right. You can't necessarily just go what's popular. You have to do what's good for a country.

所以，你知道，人不是只有一种类型。但我觉得每个人似乎都有一个共同点，就是他们非常有动力，动力超乎寻常。他们看起来不会轻易放弃。他们真的不会放弃。他们看起来有一种可能比那些不太成功的人更强烈的热情。你说过政治是一场肮脏的游戏。是的，我确实认为政治是一场肮脏的游戏。这绝对是真的。那么如果它是一场游戏，你如何在这场游戏中获胜呢？好吧，你要通过传播信息来获胜。而且要有判断力，能够感觉到趋势的走向。你还需要有一种正义感，不能只是随波逐流。你必须做对国家有益的事。

If you're talking about countries or, but you have to get the word out and you have to just continuously, like for instance, you have a great show. You have a great podcast. It's very well watched. And I'm sitting here and I do this. A lot of people see it and I do other things and a lot of people see that. And I go traditional also, you know, you have traditional television, which is getting a little bit older and maybe less significant could be less significant. I don't know. But it's changing a lot. The whole plane of platform is changing a lot. It's changed a lot in the last two, three years. But from a political standpoint, you have to find out what people are doing, what they're watching and you have to get it. You have to get on.

如果你在谈论国家或其他事情时，你必须把信息传播出去，而且要不断地这样做。比如说，你有一个很棒的节目，你有一个很棒的播客，观看的人很多。而我坐在这里参与其中，很多人都会看到它。我还做其他事情，也会有很多人看到。此外，我也会使用传统媒体，比如电视。虽然传统电视可能有点过时了，或者可能变得不那么重要了，我也不确定。但这个领域在发生很大变化，特别是在过去两三年里。但从政治的角度来看，你必须知道人们在做什么，他们在看什么，然后你必须参与其中，传播你的信息。

I just see that these platforms are starting to dominate. They're getting very big numbers. I did spaces with Elon and they got numbers like nobody's ever heard. Before. So, you know, this is, you wouldn't do that on like radio. You wouldn't do that. Those numbers, no matter how good a show, you wouldn't do tho se numbers on radio. You wouldn't do them on television. You've been successful in business. You've been successful in politics. What do you think is the difference between gaining success between the two, the two different disparate worlds? Yeah, and it's different, very different. I have a lot of people that are in business that are successful. And they'd like to go over to politics and then you realize they can't speak. They choke. You know, it's hard to make a speech in front of that. Let's say you get talking about a big audience, but I get very big audiences. And, you know, for many people, it's virtually impossible to get up and speak for an hour and a half and have nobody leave.

我发现这些平台开始占据主导地位，它们取得了非常大的数据。我和Elon开了个空间，结果获得了前所未有的收视率。所以，你知道，这种效果在广播中是做不到的，哪怕节目再好也无法达到这样的数字。电视上也是一样，做不到这样的效果。 你在商业上成功了，也在政治上成功了。你觉得在这两个完全不同的领域取得成功之间有什么区别吗？ 是的，区别很大，非常大。我认识很多在商业上成功的人，他们想转型到政治领域，但后来发现他们无法公开演讲。他们会紧张。在一个大观众面前演讲是很难的。比方说，要在一个庞大的观众面前讲话，但对于很多人来说，在一小时半的时间里讲话且无人离场，几乎是不可能的。

You know, it's not an easy thing to do. And it's an ability, but I have many people that are very, very successful in business would love to do what I did. And yet they can't pull the trigger. And in many cases, I don't think it would work almost for everybody. It's not going to work. It's a very, it's a very tough thing to do. It's a big transition. And now if you talked about people in the business and politics going into business, likewise, that wouldn't generally work out so well either. It's different talents. It's different skills. I have somebody wants to go into politics so bad, but he's got a little problem. He's got stage fright. Now he's a total killer, but if he gets up into a stage in front of people, he doesn't do well to put it mildly.

你知道，这并不是一件容易的事情。这是一种能力，很多在商业领域非常非常成功的人都想做我做的事情。然而，他们无法付诸行动。而且，在很多情况下，我觉得这对几乎所有人来说都行不通。这确实是非常困难的事情，是一个巨大的转变。如果我们谈到商业人士和政界人士相互转换，这也一般不会有好的结果。这是不同的才能和技能。我认识一个人，他非常想从政，但他有个小问题，他有舞台恐惧症。他在商业上非常厉害，但只要站上舞台面对观众时，就表现得很不好。这是轻描淡写地说。

Actually, I mean, he does badly. So you have to be able to make hard decisions like you do in business, but also be able to captivate an audience. Look, if you're a politician, you have to be able to speak in front of large crowds. There are a lot of people can't do that. I've seen it. They can't even think about doing it. And they don't. There are many people in business right now. I could name them, but I don't want to embarrass anybody. They've been talking about running for president for 15 years. And they're very big in business, very well known actually. And but it takes guts to run. Like for president, I can tell you, it takes guts.

其实，我的意思是，他表现得很差。所以你必须像在商业中那样能够做出艰难的决策，但同时也要能吸引观众的注意。你看，如果你是一个政治家，你必须能够在大群人面前演讲。很多人做不到这一点。我见过，他们甚至连想都不敢想。而且他们不会去尝试。现在很多商业界的人，我可以说出他们的名字，但我不想让任何人难堪。他们已经谈论竞选总统十五年了。他们在商业界很有名，也很成功。但要参选总统，是需要勇气的。相信我，那真的需要勇气。

To run. It's also a very dangerous profession, if you want another truth, but dangerous in a different sense too. But it takes a lot of courage to run for presidents, not easy, but you have, and you know, the same people as I do, there are a lot of people that would like to run for president that are very, very successful in business, but they don't have the guts to do it. And they have to give up a lot. One of the great things about people from the business world is they're often great deal makers and...

去竞选总统。老实说，这是一份非常危险的职业，但危险的含义不同。此外，竞选总统需要极大的勇气，这并不容易。然而你具备这种勇气，我知道，你认识的那些人和我认识的一样，有很多在商业上非常成功的人想要竞选总统，但他们没有这个胆量。此外，他们必须放弃很多东西。商界的人有一个优点就是他们通常是很出色的交易者，而且……

you're a great deal maker. And you've talked about the war in Ukraine and that you would be able to find a deal that both Putin and Zelensky would accept. What do you think that deal looks like? I think the deal, and I wouldn't talk about it too much because I think I can make a deal if if I win as president elect, I'll have a deal made. Guaranteed. That's a war that shouldn't have happened. It's terrible.

你是一个出色的交易撮合者。你曾谈到乌克兰战争，并表示你能够找到普京和泽连斯基都能接受的协议。你认为那个协议会是什么样的？我认为那个协议——我不会说得太多，因为我认为如果我当选总统，我就能达成协议。保证会有协议。这是一场不该发生的战争，非常可怕。

Look, Biden is the worst president in the history of our country. And she's probably worse than him. That's a, that's something that should have never happened. But it did happen. And now it's a much tougher deal to make than it would have been before it started. Millions of people, I think the number is going to be a lot higher when you see this all at some point to iron out. I think the numbers are going to be the death numbers are going to be a lot higher than people think.

看，拜登是我们国家历史上最差的总统。她可能比他还要糟糕。这本是不该发生的事，但它发生了。现在要解决这个问题比一开始就要困难得多。我认为，最终统计出来的死亡人数会比大家想象的要多得多。

When you take a look at the destruction and the buildings coming down all over the place in Ukraine, I think those numbers are going to be a lot higher. They, they lie about the numbers. They try and keep them low. They knock down a building that's two blocks long. These are big buildings and they say one person was mildly injured. No, no, a lot of people were killed and there are people in those buildings and they have no chance once they start coming down, there's no...

当你看看在乌克兰到处都是建筑物倒塌和破坏，我认为这些数字会高得多。他们，他们在撒谎关于这些数字。他们试图把这些数字保持在低水平。他们推倒了一幢有两个街区长的大楼。这些都是巨大的建筑物，但他们却说只有一个人轻微受伤。不，不，很多人被杀了，这些建筑物里有很多人，一旦开始倒塌他们根本没有机会生还。

chance. So, so that's a war that absolutely has to get done. And then you have Israel and then you have a lot of other places that are talking war. The world is, is a rough place right now. And a lot of it's because of the fact that America has no leadership. And I believe that she'll be probably worse than by now, watching interview the other night. I mean, it was just a softball interview. So you would like to see her do more interviews, challenged more? I don't know.

机会。所以,所以那是一场绝对必须完成的战争。然后你还有以色列，还有很多其他地方在谈论战争。世界现在是一个非常艰难的地方。很大程度上是因为美国没有领导。我认为她可能会比现在更糟糕。我看了前几晚的采访，那只是一个放水的采访。所以你希望看到她接受更多的采访，更多的挑战？我不知道。

I can't believe the whole thing is happening. We had a man in there that should have never been in there. They kept them in a basement. They use COVID. They cheated, but they use COVID to cheat and they cheated without COVID too. But you had somebody in there and now we have a woman that is not, I mean, she couldn't do an interview. This was a really soft interview. This is an interview where they give in a multiple choice. The questions, multiple guests, I go up multiple guests.

我简直不敢相信这一切真的发生了。我们曾经选了一个不该上台的人。他们把他们关在地下室里。他们利用新冠病毒作弊，而且不只是靠新冠病毒作弊。不过你看，现在我们有了一个女人，她甚至无法进行一个采访。这是一场非常轻松的采访，题目都是多项选择。我是说，他们给了多项选择的问答。

And I don't think she did well. I think she did very poorly. How do you think you'll do in the debate coming up? It's in a few days. So I've done a lot of debating only as a politician. I never debated. My first debate was the Rosio Donald debate, right? The famous Rosio Donald debate, the answer. But I've done well with debates. I mean, I became president. Then the second time I got millions more votes, I only got the first time. So I was told if I got 63 million, which is what I got the first time you, you, you would win. You can't not win. And I got millions of more votes on that and lost by a whisker. But and look what happened to the world with all of the wars and all of the problems. And look what happened with inflation because inflation is just eating up our country, eating it up. So it's too bad, but there are a lot of things that could happen. We have to get those wars settled. We have to get, I'll tell you, you have to get Ukraine done. You that could end up in a third world war. So could the Middle East. So could the Middle East. So maybe let's talk about what it takes to negotiate with somebody like Putin or or Zalinski. Do you think Putin would be willing to give up any of the regions that already captured? I don't know. I can tell you that this, all of this wo...

我觉得她表现得不好，非常糟糕。你觉得你在即将到来的辩论中表现会如何？就几天之后了。我参加过很多辩论，只是作为一个政治家进行的辩论。在此之前，我从未辩论过。我第一次辩论是著名的罗西奥·唐纳尔辩论，对吧？那个有名的辩论。但在辩论中我表现不错，毕竟我成了总统。第二次竞选时，我获得的选票比第一次多了数百万。我被告知，如果我第一次获得6300万票，我就一定能赢。而第二次我获得的选票更多，却只差一点就输了。看看这世界发生了什么，战争和各种问题。再看看通货膨胀，通胀正吞噬我们的国家，吞噬着它。这真是太糟糕了，但有很多事情可能会发生。我们必须解决这些战争问题，尤其是乌克兰问题，否则可能会引发第三次世界大战，中东也是如此。所以，也许我们可以谈谈如何与像普京或泽连斯基这样的人谈判。你觉得普京愿意放弃他已经占领的地区吗？我不知道，但我可以告诉你，这是...所有这些事情...

...uld have never happened and it would have been very easy because you don't have like that question wouldn't be asked. You know, that's a tougher question. Once that starts happening, because he has taken over a lot of territory. Now, I guess they're insurgents now too, right? So, you know, it's a little bit interesting that that's happening and that it can happen. And it's interesting that Putin has allowed that to happen. Look, that's one that should have never started. We have to get it stopped. Ukraine is being demolished. They're destroying a great culture that's largely destroyed. What do you think works better in those kinds of negotiations? Leverage of, let's say, friendship, the carrot or the stick? Friendship or sort of the threat of using the economic and military power? So it depends on who the person is. Everyone's different. Negotiations interesting because it depends on who the person is. And then you have to guess or know through certain know...

这本来就不应该发生，而且解决起来本来就很容易，因为如果你没有那种问题，根本就不会有人提问。你知道，一旦那种情况发生了，问题就会变得更复杂，因为他已经占领了很多领土。现在，我猜他们也算是叛乱分子了，对吧？所以，这种情况的发生以及它发生的可能性都很有趣。而且有趣的是，普京居然允许这种情况发生。看，这种情况本来就不该开始，我们必须让它停下来。乌克兰正在被摧毁，他们毁掉了一种伟大的文化，这种文化大部分已经被摧毁。你认为在这种谈判中，哪种方式更有效？友谊的杠杆作用，也就是胡萝卜，还是大棒，也就是使用经济和军事力量的威胁？这取决于谈判对象是谁。每个人都不同，谈判很有趣，因为它取决于谈判对象是谁。然后你必须通过某些方式猜测或知道……

...ledge, which is, you know, more important, the carrot or the stick. And with some people, it's the stick and with some people, it's the carrot. I think the stick probably is generally more successful in that, you know, we're talking about war. But the kind of destruction that we're witnessing now, nobody's ever seen, I mean, it's a terrible thing. And we're witnessing it all over, we're witnessing it in all parts of the world. And a lot of things are going to get started. Look what's going on with China. Look at Japan, they're starting to rearm now. They're starting to rearm because China's getting, you know, taking over certain islands. There's a lot of danger in the war right now in the world. There's a lot of, and there's a great possibility of World War III. And we better get this thing done fast because five months with people like her and him, he's checked out. He just goes to the beach and thinks he looks good on a bathing suit, which he doesn't. He sorte...

你知道，有一个问题是，胡萝卜和大棒哪个更重要。对于某些人来说，大棒更重要，而对于另一些人来说，胡萝卜更重要。我认为大棒通常更有效，特别是当我们讨论战争时。我们现在所目睹的破坏是前所未有的，这是一件可怕的事情。我们在全球各地都在目睹这种情况。很多事情即将开始。看看中国发生了什么。再看看日本，他们现在开始重新武装，因为中国在接管一些岛屿。现在世界上的战争非常危险，甚至有很大可能爆发第三次世界大战。我们必须迅速解决这个问题，因为五个月之内，有她和他那样的人参与，他已经不在状态了。他只是去海滩，觉得自己穿泳装很好看，但实际上并不好看。

...d of checked out. Hey, look, you know, you can't blame him. That was a coup. They took it over. They took over the presidential deal. The whole presidential thing was taken over in a coup. He had 14 million votes. He had no votes, not one. And nobody thought it was going to be her. Nobody wanted it to be her. She was a joke until six weeks ago when they said we're going to have to politically, they felt they had a picker. And if they didn't pick her, they thought they'd be a problem. I don't know if that's right or not. I actually don't think it's right, but, you know, they thought it was right. And now immediately the press comes to their aid. If we can go back to China, on negotiation, how do we avoid war with China in the 21st century? Well, there are ways now. Here's the problem. If I tell you how, and I'd love to do it, but if I give you a plan, like I have a very exacting plan how to stop Ukraine and Russia, and I have a certain idea, maybe not a plan, but an idea for China, because we do. We're in a lot of trouble. There'll be a lot of trouble too, but I can't give you those plans because...

翻译成中文，尽量易读： ……有点走神了。喂，看看，你不能怪他。这是政变。他们夺取了它。他们夺取了总统职位。整个总统职位是在政变中被拿下的。他有1400万张选票。而他一张选票也没有，一张也没有。而且没人认为会是她。没人想要是她。六周前，她还被认为是个笑话，那时他们说我们不得不出于政治考虑选她。如果不选她，他们觉得会有问题。我不知道这种看法对不对。我实际上不认为对，但你知道，他们认为是对的。现在媒体立刻来帮他们。 如果我们回到中国问题上，关于谈判，如何在21世纪避免与中国开战？嗯，现在有一些办法。问题是，如果我告诉你怎么做，我很乐意这么做，但如果我给你一个计划，比如说我有一个非常详细的停止乌克兰和俄罗斯冲突的计划，而我对于中国也有一些想法，也许不是计划，而是想法。因为我们确实处于很大的麻烦之中。他们也会遇到很多麻烦，但我不能告诉你这些计划，因为...

if I give you those plans, I'm not going to be able to use them. They'll be very unsuccessful. You know, part of it's a surprise, right? Right. But they won't be able to help us much. So you have a plan on what to say to Putin. Yeah, I know. You take office. No, I had a very good relationship with him, and I had a good relationship with Zalinski too, but I had a very good relationship with Putin. Tough topic, but important. He said, lost by a whisker. I'm an independent. I have a lot of friends who are independent. Many of whom like your policies, like the fact that you're a deal maker, like the fact that you can end wars, but they are troubled by what happened in the 2020 election and statements about widespread fraud and this kind of stuff, fake electro scheme. What can you say to those independent voters to help them decide who to vote for? Right. I think the fraud was on the other side. I think the election was a fraud. And many people felt it was that and they wanted answers. And when you can't challenge an election, you have to be able to challenge it. Otherwise, it's going to get worse, not better. And there are lots of ways to solve this problem. Go to paper ballots and do it the easy way. I mean, the paper ballots and you have voter ID and you have same day voting. And you have proof of citizenship, which is very important because we have people voting that are not citizens. They just came in and they're loading up the payrolls. They're loading up everything. They're putting students in schools. I don't speak a word of English. And they're taking the seats of people that are citizens of our country.

如果我把这些计划给你们，我就不能再使用它们了。它们会非常失败。你知道的，部分原因是要有一些惊喜，对吧？对。但是它们不会帮我们太多。所以你有个计划要对普京说什么。是的，我知道。你开始执政了。我和他关系很好，我和泽连斯基关系也不错，但我和普京关系很好。话题很难，但很重要。他说，以微弱差距输了。我是一个独立派。我有很多朋友也是独立派，其中很多人喜欢你的政策，他们喜欢你是个谈判专家，喜欢你能结束战争，但他们对2020年的选举和关于大规模舞弊的说法感到困扰，还有这种假的选举流程。你能对这些独立选民说些什么，帮助他们决定投票给谁吗？对。我认为舞弊在另一方。我认为选举是个骗局。很多人也这么觉得，他们想要答案。而当你不能质疑选举的时候，你必须能够质疑它。否则，情况只会越来越糟，不会变好。有很多方法可以解决这个问题。使用纸质选票，以简单的方式进行。我是说，用纸质选票并且有选民身份证，还有当天投票。同时你必须有公民身份的证明，这很重要，因为有些投票的人不是公民。他们刚刚进入，把所有的名额都占满了。他们把学生安插进学校里，这些学生一句英语也不会说，并且占据了我们国家公民的席位。

So look, we have the worst border in the history of the world. We have coming into our country right now, millions and millions of people at levels that nobody's ever seen. I don't believe any country's ever seen it. And they would use sticks and stones not to make it happen, not to let it happen. We don't do anything. And we have a person who is the borders are, who now said she wasn't really the borders are, but she was the borders are, but she was in charge of the border. And we have her and she's saying very strongly, I did such a good job. She was horrible, horrible. The harm she's done, but we have people coming in from other countries all over the world, not just South America. And they're coming in from prisons and jails. They're coming in from mental institutions and insane asalums. And they're street criminals right off the street.

看，我们国家现在的边境状况是世界历史上最糟糕的。每一天都有成百万上千万的人进入我们的国家，这种规模前所未见。我不认为有哪个国家曾经遇到过这种情况。其他国家会用棍棒和石头来阻止这种情况发生，而我们却什么也不做。而负责管理边境的那个人现在却说她其实并不负责，但她确实是负责边境的。她非常坚称自己做得很好，但实际上她的表现非常糟糕，给我们带来了巨大的伤害。我们现在不仅有来自南美的移民，还有来自世界各地的。他们从监狱和精神病院逃出来的，有的甚至是街头罪犯，直接跑进了我们的国家。

They take them and they're being given to our country, drug dealers, human traffickers. We're destroying our country. This is a sin what's been allowed to take place over the last four years. We're destroying our country and we'll see how that all works out, but it's not even believable. And now you see, you saw an Aurora, Colorado, a group of very tough young thugs from Venezuela taking over big areas, including buildings. They're taking over buildings. They have their big rifles, but they're taking over buildings. We're not going to let this happen. We're not going to let them destroy our country. And you know, when those countries, crime is way down. They're taking them out of their prisons, which is good because good for them. I do the same thing. By the way, if I ran one of those countries, any country in the world, I would make sure that America has every one of our prisoners. Every one of our criminals would be here.

他们把这些人带过来，送到我们的国家，毒贩、人贩子。我们在毁灭自己的国家。过去四年发生的这些事情简直是罪恶。我们在毁灭自己的国家，看看结果会如何，但这简直难以置信。现在你可以看到，在科罗拉多州的奥罗拉，一群来自委内瑞拉的非常凶狠的年轻暴徒占领了大片区域，包括一些建筑物。他们拿着大枪，占领建筑物。我们不会让这种事情发生，不会让他们毁灭我们的国家。而且你知道吗，在那些国家，犯罪率大大下降了。他们从监狱里把这些人送过来，这是好事，对他们有好处。如果我是那些国家的领导人，我也会这样做。事实上，如果我是任何一个国家的领导人，我会确保把我们所有的囚犯、所有的罪犯都送到美国。

I can't believe they're going so slowly, but some aren't. But they all are doing it. And we can't let that happen. They're emptying out their prisons and their mental institutions into the United States of America. We can't let that happen. So a lot of people believe that there was some shady stuff that went on with the election, whether it's media bias or big tech, but still the claim of widespread fraud is the thing that bothers people. Well, I don't focus on the past. I focus on the future. I mean, I talk about how bad the economy is, how bad inflation is, how bad things like, which is important.

我真不敢相信他们这么慢，尽管有些人不是这样。但他们都在这么做。我们不能让这种事情发生。他们正在把犯人和精神病人送到美国。我们不能让这种事情发生。很多人相信这次选举有不正当操作，无论是媒体偏见还是大型科技公司，但真正让人烦恼的是大范围的舞弊指控。好吧，我不关注过去，我关注未来。我会讨论糟糕的经济状况、高通胀等重要问题。

Afghanistan was, in my opinion, the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to our country. And because of that, I think Putin went in. When he said, how stupid we were, Putin went in. But it was the most embarrassing moment in the history of our country. I really believe that. But we left 13 dead soldiers. Think of it, 13 dead soldiers, many soldiers horrifically hurt with arms and legs and everything else gone. We left hostages behind. We left Americans behind. We left military equipment, the likes of which nobody's ever left behind before.

在我看来，阿富汗事件是我们国家历史上最令人难堪的事情。也正是因为这件事，我认为普京才会采取行动。当普京说我们有多愚蠢时，他就采取了行动。但这是我们国家历史上最尴尬的时刻，我真的相信这一点。我们留下了13名阵亡的士兵，想想看，13名士兵阵亡，许多士兵受了重伤，失去了手臂和腿以及其他部位。我们还留下了人质，留下了美国人，留下了大量前所未有的军事装备。

Billions and billions of dollars of equipment. They're now selling the equipment. They're one of the largest arms dealers in the world. And very sad, very sad. And we were there for a long time. I was going to get out. We were getting ready to get out. Then we got interrupted by the election. But we would have been out with dignity and strength. We were having very little problem with the Taliban when I was there because they knew it was going to be tough. I dealt with Abdul. Abdul was the leader. And we got along fine. He understood. But they were shooting. They were killing a lot of our people before I came down.

数十亿计的设备。他们现在正在出售这些设备。他们是世界上最大的军火商之一。这非常悲哀，非常悲哀。而且我们在那里驻扎了很长时间。我原本打算撤离，我们已经准备好撤离了。然后，选举让我们中断了。但我们本可以体面而有力地撤离。在我任内，我们在面对塔利班时几乎没有遇到什么问题，因为他们知道我们不好惹。我和阿卜杜勒打过交道，阿卜杜勒是他们的领导人。我们相处得还算融洽，他明白我的意思。但在我上任之前，他们一直在开枪，杀害了很多我们的人。

And when I got there, I said, I spoke to him. I said, you can't do it. Don't do it anymore. We went 18 months before this happened. This horrible day happened. We went 18 months and nobody was shot at or killed. What do you think that was? The character of this thing, in that case, in Afghanistan. The stick definitely is a stick. The threat of military force. That was the stick, yeah. It doesn't have to be, but that was the stick. Well, let me just link on the election a little bit more. For this selection, it might be a close one.

当我到那里的时候，我对他说：你不能这样做，别再这样做了。在这件可怕的事情发生之前，我们已经平安度过了18个月，没人被射击或杀害。你认为这是什么原因？在阿富汗的情况下，威胁军事力量就是那个“棒子”。这确实是个威胁——动用武力的威胁，虽然不一定非得这样，但那时候确实是这个威胁。好了，让我再谈谈选举，这次选举可能会非常紧张。

What can we do to avoid the insanity and division of the previous election, whether you win or lose? Well, I hope it's not a close one. I mean, I don't know how people can vote for somebody that has destroyed our country, the inflation, the bad economy, but to me, in a way, the worst is what they've allowed to happen at our border, where they've allowed millions of people to come in here from places that you don't want to know about. And I can't believe that there's going to be a close election. You know, we're leading in the polls, but it looks close. But I think in the end, it's not going to be a close election. What do you think is the right way to solve the immigration crisis? Is mass deportation one of the solutions you would think about?

我们怎么才能避免像上次选举那样疯狂和分裂的局面，无论你赢还是输呢？嗯，我希望这次选举不会那么胶着。我的意思是，我不明白怎么会有人投票给一个毁了我们国家的人，通货膨胀、糟糕的经济状况，但对我来说，最糟糕的是他们允许我们的边境发生的事情，他们允许数百万人从你不想知道的地方进来。我无法相信这次会是一场势均力敌的选举。你知道，我们在民调中领先，但看起来很接近。不过我认为最终结果不会那么胶着。你认为解决移民危机的正确方法是什么？你会考虑大规模驱逐作为一种解决办法吗？

Well, you've got to get the criminals out of here fast, right? The people from mental institutions, you've got to get them back into their mental institutions. No country can afford this. You know, it's just too much money. You look at what's happening in New York and Chicago and LA and lots of places, and you take a look at what's happening. There's no country can afford this. We can't afford it. And we've got to get the bad ones out immediately, and the rest have to be worked on. You know, it's happened before Dwight Eisenhower was sort of a moderate president, a moderate type person, but he hated when he saw people pouring into the country.

你必需尽快把这些犯罪分子赶出去，对吧？那些精神病院出来的人，也得送回精神病院。没有哪个国家能承受这样的负担，真的，花费太大了。你看看纽约、芝加哥、洛杉矶和很多地方，看看那里发生了什么。没有一个国家能够承受这种情况。我们做不到。我们必须立即把那些坏人赶出去，然后再着手处理其余的人。这种情况以前也发生过，德怀特·艾森豪威尔是个相对温和的总统，一个温和的类型，但他也讨厌看到那么多人涌入国家。

And they were nothing like now. You know, I probably got elected in 2016 because of the border. And I told people what was happening and they understood it. And I won the election and I won the election, I think because of the border. Our border is 25 times worse right now than I was in 2016. I had it fixed to I had it the last week of my, the famous chart that I put up was exactly that. You know, the chart when I looked to the right, I said, there's the chart being, that was not a pleasant experience. But the chart that I put up said, and that was done by Border Patrol, that was the lowest number that we've ever had come into our country in recorded history. And we have to get it back to that again. We will.

而且当时的情况和现在完全不同。你知道，我可能是因为边境问题才在2016年当选的。我告诉人们发生了什么，他们理解了。我赢得了选举，我认为是因为边境问题。我们的边境现在比2016年时糟糕了25倍。当时我把它解决了，我有一张著名的图表，展示了最后一周的情况。你知道的，当我看向右边时，那张图表显示的不是一个愉快的经历。但那张图表是边境巡逻队做的，它显示了有记录以来进入我国的最低人数。我们必须再次回到那种情况，我们会做到的。

Let me ask you about Project 2025. So you've publicly said that you don't have any direct connection to. Nothing. I know nothing about it. And they know that too. The Democrats know that. And I purposely haven't read it because I want to say to you, I don't, I have no idea what it's all about. It's easier than saying I read it, then you know, all of the things. No, I purposely haven't read it. And I've heard about it. I've heard about things that are in there that I don't like. And there's some things in there that everybody would like. But there are things that I don't like at all. And I think it's unfortunate that they put it out, but it doesn't mean anything because it has nothing to do with me. Project 25 has, it has absolutely nothing to do with me.

让我问你关于2025计划的事。你曾公开表示过你与这个计划没有任何直接联系。完全没有。我对此一无所知。他们也知道这一点。民主党人也知道。我故意没有去看，因为我想告诉你，我对它完全不了解。这样比说我看过它，然后你知道，一切都清楚了，要简单得多。不，我故意没有看。我听说过一些关于它的事情，其中有些我不喜欢。当然，也有一些大家都会喜欢的东西。但有些东西我完全不喜欢。我觉得他们把它发布出来是很不幸的，但这没有任何意义，因为这和我没有关系。这个2025计划和我完全无关。

You posted recently about marijuana and that you're okay with it being legalized, but it has to be done safely. Can you explain your policy there? Or I just put out a paper and first of all, medical marijuana has been amazing. It's been, I've had friends and I've had others and doctors telling me that it's been absolutely amazing, the medical marijuana. And we put out a statement that we can live with the marijuana. It's got to be a certain age. It's got to be a certain age to buy it. It's got to be done in a very concerted lawful way. And the way they're doing it in Florida, I think is going to be actually good. It's going to be very good. But it's got to be done in a good way. It's got to be done in a clean way. You go into some of these places like in New York, it's all, it smells all marijuana. You can't, the way you've got to have a system with this control. And I think the way they've done it in Florida is very good.

你最近发帖谈到你支持大麻合法化，但必须以安全的方式进行。能解释一下你的政策吗？我的观点是，首先，医用大麻非常好。我有朋友，还有一些医生告诉我，医用大麻的效果非常棒。我们发表了一个声明，表示我们可以接受大麻，但必须有年龄限制。购买大麻的人必须达到一定的年龄，并且整个过程必须在法律框架内进行。我认为佛罗里达州的做法实际上是好的，这样做将非常好。但必须以好的方式进行，必须以干净的方式进行。你进入纽约的一些地方，整个地方都充斥着大麻味。我们需要有一个受控的系统，我认为佛罗里达州的做法非常好。

Do you know anything about psychedelics? So I'm not a drug guy, but I recently did ayahuasca. And there's a lot of people that speak to sort of the health benefits and the spiritual benefits of these different psychedelics. I think we would probably have a better world if everybody in Congress took some mushrooms, perhaps. Now I know you don't, you stay away from all of that stuff. I know also veterans use it for dealing with PTSD and all that kind of stuff. So it's great and it's interesting that you're thinking about being more accepting of some of these drugs, which don't just have a recreational purpose, but a medical purpose, treatment purpose. So we put out a statement today, we're going to put it on another one probably next week, be more specific, although I think it's pretty specific. And we'll see how that all goes. That's a referendum coming up in some states, but it's coming up and we'll see how it does. I will say it's been very hard to beat it. You take a look at the numbers, it's been very hard to beat it. So I think it'll generally pass, but you want to do it in a safe way.

你了解任何关于迷幻药的事情吗？我不是一个吸毒的人，但我最近尝试了死藤水。有很多人都在谈论这些不同迷幻药的健康益处和精神益处。我觉得如果国会中的每个人都尝试一下蘑菇（迷幻药的一种），我们的世界可能会更好。我知道你不碰这类东西。此外，我还知道退伍军人用它来处理创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）等问题。所以，很好的是你开始考虑更接受这些药物，这些药物不仅仅是为了娱乐，还有医疗和治疗的作用。 所以我们今天发表了一个声明，可能会在下周再发布一个更具体的声明。到时候看看情况如何。这会在一些州进行公投，所以我们看看结果如何。我得说，想战胜它非常困难。看看数字，战胜它非常困难。所以我认为它一般都会通过，但你需要以一种安全的方式进行。

Speaking of marijuana, let me ask you about my good friend Joe Rogan. So you had a bit of tension with him. So when he said nice things about RFK Jr, I think you've said some not so nice things about Joe, and I think that was a bit unfair. And as a fan of Joe, I would love to see you do his podcast because he is legit the greatest conversationalist in the world. So what's the story behind the tension? I don't think there was any tension. And I've always liked him, but I don't know him. I've only seen him when I walk into the arena with Dana and I shake his hand. I see him there. And I think he's good at what he does, but I don't know about doing his podcast. I mean, I guess I do it, but I haven't been asked and I'm not asking them. I'm not asking anybody. It sounds like a challenging negotiation situation. No, it's not really a negotiation. And he's sort of a liberal guy, I guess, from what I understand. But he likes Kennedy. This was before I found this out before Kennedy came in with us. He's going to be great. He's doing Bobby's going to be great. But I like that he likes Kennedy. I do too. He's a different kind of a guy, but he's got some great things going. And I think he's going to be beyond politics. I think he could be quite influential in taking care of some situations that you probably would agree should be taken care of.

说到大麻，我想问问你关于我好朋友乔·罗根的事。你们之间好像有一些紧张关系。当他对RFK Jr.说了些好话时，我记得你对乔说了些不太好听的话，我觉得这有点不公平。作为乔的粉丝，我很希望看到你上他的播客，因为他真的是世界上最棒的对话者。那么，这些紧张关系是怎么回事呢？ 我认为没有什么紧张关系。我一直很喜欢他，但我不太了解他。我只是和丹娜走进场馆时见过他，并跟他握手。我觉得他工作做得很好，但做他的播客这事儿我不确定。我是说，如果邀请我，我会去做，但还没有人邀请我，我也没主动要求过邀请。听起来像是一个棘手的谈判情况。 不，这不完全是谈判。我想他有点偏自由派，从我了解的情况来看。但他喜欢肯尼迪。这是在肯尼迪来和我们合作之前我就知道的。肯尼迪会很棒的，鲍比会做得很好。但我喜欢他喜欢肯尼迪。我也喜欢。肯尼迪是个与众不同的人，但他有一些很棒的想法。我认为他超越了政治，可以在处理一些你可能也会同意需要解决的问题上发挥很大的影响力。

The Joe Rogan Post is an example. I would love to get your psychology about behind the tweets and the post on truth. Are you sometimes being intentionally provocative? Are you just speaking your mind? And are there times where you regret some of the truths you've posted? Yeah, I do. I mean, but not that often. Honestly, I do a lot of reposting. The ones you get in trouble with are the reposts, because you find down deep they're into some group that you're not supposed to be reposting. You don't even know if those groups are good, bad, or indifferent. But the reposts are the ones that really get you in trouble. When you do your own words, it's sort of easier. But the reposts go very quickly. And if you're going to check every single little symbol, and I don't know, it's worked out pretty well for me. I tell you, truth is very powerful. Truth, and it's my platform, and it's been very powerful, very, very powerful. It goes everywhere. I call it my typewriter. That's actually my typewriter. What are you doing usually when you're composing a truth? Like, are you chilling back on a couch? Cauches, beds. A lot of different things. Like late at night. And just. I'd like to do some later. You know, I'm not a huge sleeper. But whenever I do them, you know, past like three o'clock, they criticize you in the next day. Trump was up. A true thing. Okay? Trump was a true thing at three o'clock in the morning. And there should be no problem with that. And then when you think about time zones, how do they know that you're like, you know, in a time zone, like an eastern zone? So, but every time I do it after like two or three o'clock, it's like, why is he doing that? But it's gotten, I mean, you know, the truth has become a very successful platform. And I like doing it. And it goes everywhere. As soon as I do it, it goes everywhere.

乔·罗根的帖子就是一个例子。我很想了解你发布推文和帖子的心理背景。有时候你是故意挑衅吗？还是只是表达自己的想法？有没有时候你会后悔发布了一些真相？是的，我有过后悔，但不是很频繁。说实话，我主要是转载别人的内容。那些引发争议的通常都是转发内容，因为你后来发现这些内容和某些你不该转载的团体有关。你根本不知道这些团体是好是坏还是无关紧要。但真正让你陷入困境的就是这些转发内容。如果是用自己的话发表意见会相对容易些。但转发内容的传播速度非常快。如果你要检查每一个小符号，那就麻烦了。不过，对我来说情况还算不错。我告诉你，真相是很有力量的。真相，这是我的平台，它非常有力量，非常非常有力量。它传播得很广。我把它称为我的打字机。实际上，那是我的打字机。 通常你在发布真相时在做什么？你是放松地靠在沙发上吗？沙发、床，各种不同的地方。通常是深夜。我喜欢稍晚些时候进行创作。你知道，我不怎么贪睡。但无论什么时候发布，像三点后发布，他们第二天就会批评你：特朗普凌晨三点还在发帖子。没问题吧？特朗普凌晨三点真发布了一些东西。这没什么问题。而且，当你考虑到时区问题的时候，他们怎么知道你在什么时区，比如东部时区？所以，每当我在凌晨两三点发布内容时，他们就会问我为什么这么做。但实际上，你知道吗，这个“真相”已经成为了一个非常成功的平台。我很喜欢做这件事，而且它传播得非常广。我一发布，它就传播出去。

The country seems more divided than ever. What can you do to help alleviate some of that division? Well, you can get rid of these two people that terrible, they're terrible. You don't want to have them running this country. They're not equipped to run a Joe, just Joe. It's a disaster. Okay. And Kamala, I think she'll end up being worse than him. We'll see. I think a lot's now, you know, the conventions over with. And I see them leading in just about all the polls now. They had their little honeymoon period, as they call it. And we'll see how that all goes. So, no. So.

这个国家似乎比以往更加分裂。你能做些什么来缓解这种分裂呢？嗯，你可以摆脱这两个人，他们真的很糟糕，他们跑这个国家会很糟糕的。他们没有能力管理这个国家，尤其是乔。简直是个灾难。好的。还有卡马拉，我觉得她最终会比他更糟糕。我们拭目以待。我觉得很多事情现在已经定型了，他们在几乎所有的民调中都领先。他们有他们所谓的蜜月期。我们看看接下来会发生什么。所以，不。所以。

For my personal opinion, I think you are at your best when you're talking about a positive vision of the future versus criticizing the other side. Yeah. I think you have to criticize though. I think they're nasty. They came up with a story that I looked down and I called soldiers that died in World War I. Suckers and losers. Okay. Now, number one, who would say that? And number two, who would say it to military people? Nobody. It was a made up story. It was just a made up story. And they like to repeat it over again. They know it was made up. I have 26 witnesses that nothing was said. They don't want to hear about that. Like she lied on McDonald's, she said that, that she worked at McDonald's. It's not a big lie, but it's a big lie. It's so, you know, I mean, they just went and they checked and unless she can show something, they don't talk about the presses, they're going to follow up with it. But I'll keep hammering it. But she never worked at McDonald's. It was just a, you know, sort of a cool thing to say, hey, I worked at McDonald's, you know.

根据我个人的观点，我觉得当你谈论对未来积极的愿景而不是批评另一方时，你表现得最好。是的，我认为你必须批评他们。我觉得他们很恶毒。他们编造了一个故事，说我贬低并称在第一次世界大战中阵亡的士兵是傻瓜和失败者。好吧，首先，谁会说那样的话？其次，谁会对军人说那样的话？没有人会说。这完全是捏造的故事。他们喜欢一遍又一遍地重复这个故事，明明知道这是捏造的。我有26个证人证明什么都没说过。他们不愿意听这些。就像她在麦当劳撒谎，她说她在麦当劳工作过。这不是一个大谎言，但仍然是个谎言。他们调查了，除非她能拿出证据，否则他们不会继续报道。但我会继续追究这个事实。她从来没有在麦当劳工作过，这只是她觉得说“嘿，我在麦当劳工作过”很好玩。

But one of the worst was two days ago, I went to Arlington at the request of people that lost their children. They'll always be children to those people. You understand that? That's not politically incorrect, it's a thing to say. The mother comes up, I lost my child. But, you know, the child is a soldier and lost the child because of Biden and because of Kamala. Just as though they had the gun in their hand, because it was so badly handled, it should have been done at Bagram, which is the big airbase. It shouldn't have been done at a small little airport right in the middle of town where people stormed it. It was a true disaster.

但是，最糟糕的事情之一是两天前，我应那些失去孩子的人的请求，去了阿灵顿。对于那些人来说，自己的孩子永远是孩子。你明白吗？这并不是政治不正确，这是事实。母亲走过来对我说，她失去了自己的孩子。但是，你知道吗，那个孩子是一名士兵，因为拜登和贺锦丽的缘故而失去了生命。就像他们手里拿着枪一样，因为处理得太糟糕了，本来应该在巴格拉姆那个大空军基地进行的，却选择了一个在市中心的小机场，结果被人群冲击了。这真的是一场彻底的灾难。

And they asked me if I'd come and celebrate with them three years, three years, they've died three years ago. And I said, I'm going to try. I got to know them because I brought them here, actually. One night, they almost all came here. And they said, I wonder if Trump will actually come and see us. I heard that we were here. So we stayed for like four hours listening to music up on a deck right upstairs. Beautiful. And they were great people.

他们问我能不能来和他们一起庆祝三周年，他们去世已经三年了。我说我会尽量来。我认识他们是因为我把他们带到这里。有一天晚上，他们几乎全部都来到了这里。他们说，他们在想特朗普会不会真的来看他们。他们听说我们在这里。所以我们在楼上的甲板上听了大概四个小时的音乐，非常美妙。他们都是很棒的人。

So they called me over the last couple of weeks and they said, we're going to have a reunion our three year union. Would you be able to come? It was very hard for me to do it logistically, but I said, I'll get it done. And I got there. And we had a beautiful time. I didn't run away. I didn't, you know, I didn't just walk in, shake hands and walk out. Like people do. And I wasn't looking at my watch like Joe Biden does. And it was amazing. So I did it for them. I didn't do it for me. I don't need the publicity. I mean, I get more publicity probably than anybody. You would know that better than me, but I think maybe more than anybody, maybe more than anybody that's ever lived. I don't know, but I don't think anyone could have any more.

所以，他们在过去几周打电话给我，说我们要举办一个三周年的聚会。你能来吗？对我来说，组织这次行程非常困难，但我说我会办到的。于是我去了。我们度过了一段美好的时光。我没有逃避，没有只是进去握手然后就走了，就像有些人那样。我也没有像乔·拜登那样一直看手表。那真是很棒。我是为了他们做这件事，不是为了我自己。我不需要宣传，我的曝光率可能比任何人都高。你们比我更清楚这一点，但我觉得可能比任何人都高，也许是有史以来最高的。我不知道，但我认为没有人能有更多了。

Every time you turn on television, there's like nine different stories, all on different topics in the world. As an example, you interview a lot of people, good people, successful people. Let's see how you do with this interview versus them. I can tell you right now, you're going to get the highest numbers you've ever had by sometimes a factor of 10. But when a gold star family asks me to come in and spend time with them, and then they said, sir, we did a ceremony, and then we went down to the graves, which was quite a distance away.

每次你打开电视，都会看到各种各样的新闻报道，涉及世界上不同的话题。举个例子，你采访了很多人，都是好人和成功人士。让我们看看你这次采访的表现如何，与他们相比如何。我现在就可以告诉你，你这次的收视率将会是你以往最高的，甚至有时高十倍。但是，当一个金星家庭（失去亲人的军人家庭）请我去见他们并和他们共度时光时，他们告诉我：“先生，我们举行了一个仪式，然后我们去了墓地，墓地距离很远。”

They said, sir, would you come to the grave? And then they said, when we were there, it's very sad, actually, because these people shouldn't have died. They shouldn't have died. They died because of Biden and because of Kamala. They died because it, just like if they pulled the trigger, okay? Now, I don't know if that's controversial to say, but I don't think it is. Afghanistan was the most incompetently run operation. I think I've ever seen military or otherwise they were incompetent. But the families asked me if I'd go. I did go. Then the family said, could we have a picture at the tombstone of my son and we did? Son or daughter, there was a daughter too. And I took numerous pictures with the families.

他们说，先生，您能来墓地吗？然后他们说，当我们到了那里，其实非常难过，因为这些人本不该死去。他们不该死。他们是因为拜登和卡马拉（副总统哈里斯）而死的。就像他们扣动了扳机一样，好吗？现在，我不知道这么说是否有争议，但我不觉得有。阿富汗撤军是我见过的最无能的行动，军事还是其他方面都是如此，他们真的很无能。但是那些家庭问我是否可以去。我去了。然后家人说，我们能不能在我儿子的墓碑前照张相，我们照了？儿子或女儿，有一个是女儿。我和这些家庭拍了很多照片。

I don't know if anybody else was in the pictures, but they were mostly families, I guess. That was it. And then I left. I spent a lot of time with them. Then I left and I get home that night and I get a call that the Biden administration with Kamala is accusing me of using Arlington for publicity. I was in use, just the opposite, just the opposite. And actually, did you see, it just came out, the families actually put out a very strong statement defending me. They said, we asked them to be there.

我不知道照片里是否有其他人，但大多数都是家庭，我猜是这样。就是这样。然后我离开了。我花了很多时间和他们在一起。之后我离开了，那天晚上我回到家，接到了一个电话，说拜登政府和卡马拉（哈里斯）指责我利用阿灵顿进行宣传。事实恰恰相反，完全相反。实际上，你看到了吗？刚刚发布的，家庭们实际上发表了一份非常强烈的声明为我辩护。他们说，是我们邀请他来的。

Well, politicians and the media can play those games and you're right, your name gets a lot of use. You're probably legit the most famous person in the world. But on the previous thing, in the spirit of unity, you used to be a Democrat. Setting the politicians aside, what do you respect most about people who lean left, who are Democrats themselves or of that persuasion, progressives, liberals and so on? Well, I respect the fact that everybody's in there and to a certain extent, life is what you do while you're waiting to die. So you might as well do a good job.

嗯，政治家和媒体确实会玩这些把戏，你说的没错，你的名字确实被频繁提到。你可能真的是世界上最有名的人了。但回到之前的话题，为了团结一致，你曾经是个民主党人。抛开政治家不谈，你最尊重那些倾向于左派、民主党、进步派和自由派的人什么呢？ 嗯，我尊重大家都在其中，并且在某种程度上，生活就是你在等待死亡时所做的事情。所以你最好把事情做好。

I think in terms of what's happening now, I think we have a chance to save the country. This country's going down and I called it with Venezuela. I called it with a lot of different countries. And this country is going down. If we don't win this election, the election coming up on November 5th is the most important election this country's ever had. Because if we don't win it, I don't know that there'll be another election and it's going to be a communist country or close.

我认为，从目前的情况来看，我认为我们有机会拯救这个国家。我们的国家正在走向衰落，而我之前预测了委内瑞拉的情况，还有很多其他国家的情况。我认为，如果我们这次不能赢得大选——即将到来的11月5日的大选是我们国家有史以来最重要的一次选举——如果我们不赢得这次选举，我不知道以后是否还会有选举，我们的国家将会变成一个共产主义国家或接近共产主义的国家。

And there's a lot of people listening to this, myself included, that doesn't think that Kamala is a communist. Well, she's a Marxist. Her father's a Marxist. That's right. And she's advocating for some policies that are towards the direction of democratic socialism, let's say. But there's a lot of people that kind of know the way government works and they say, well, none of those policies are going to actually come to reality. It's just being used during the campaign to, you know, grow cities that are too expensive. We need them cheaper. So let's talk about price controls and that's never going to come to reality. It could come to reality. Look, I mean, she came out with price control. It's been tried like 121 different times at different places over the years and it's never worked once. It leads to communism. It leads to socialism. It leads to having no food on the shelves and it leads to tremendous inflation. It's just a bad idea.

很多人在听这个节目，包括我自己，都不认为卡玛拉是共产主义者。但是，她是一个马克思主义者。她的父亲是马克思主义者。没错。她在提倡一些朝向民主社会主义方向的政策。可是很多了解政府运作的人会说，这些政策实际上不可能实现。这些政策只是在竞选期间用来吸引那些认为城市太昂贵的选民，我们需要使它们变得更便宜。所以让我们谈论价格控制，但这永远不会成为现实。其实，它有可能成为现实。你看，她提出了价格控制。在过去的多年间，这种措施在大约121个不同的地方尝试过，但没有一次成功过。它通向共产主义，通向社会主义，造成货架上没有食物，导致巨大的通货膨胀。这是个糟糕的主意。

Whenever we use terms like communism for her, and I don't know if you know this, but some people call you a fascist. Yeah, they do. So I figure it's all right to call them a communist. Yeah, they call me a lot worse than I call them. They do indeed. It's just sometimes interesting though. They'll call me something that's terrible and then I'll hit them back and they'll say, isn't it terrible what Trump said? I said, wait a minute. They just call me. So I believe you have to fight fire with fire. I believe they're very evil people. These are evil people. You know, we have an enemy from the outside and we have an enemy from within.

每当我们称她为共产主义者，我不知道你是否知道，有些人叫你法西斯。没错，他们确实这么叫。所以我觉得叫他们共产主义者是可以的。是的，他们对我的称呼比我对他们的还难听得多。确实如此。这有时候很有趣。他们会叫我一些很恶劣的词语，然后我回击他们，他们又说，特朗普说的话真是太可怕了。我就说，等一下，他们刚刚才叫我这些词。所以我认为必须以牙还牙。我相信他们是非常邪恶的人。这些人是恶人。你知道，我们有外部的敌人，也有内部的敌人。

And in my opinion, the enemy from within a radical left lunatics. And I think you have to fight back. Whenever there's a lot of fighting fire with fire, it's too easy to forget that there's a middle of America that is moderate and kind of sees the good in both sides and just likes one side more than the other in terms of policies. Like I said, there's a lot of people that like your policies that like your skill in being able to negotiate and end wars and they don't see the impending destruction of America.

在我看来，内在的敌人是那些极端左翼的疯子。我认为你必须反击。当我们以火攻火时，很容易忘记美国中部地区那些温和的人群，他们能看到双方的优点，只是更倾向于某一方的政策。就像我说的，有很多人喜欢你的政策，欣赏你在谈判和结束战争方面的能力，他们并没有看到美国即将面临的毁灭。

You know, we had no wars when I was president. That's a big thing. Not since 78 years has that happened. But we had no wars when I was president. We defeated ISIS, but that was a war that was started that we weren't anywhere near defeating. But think of it. I had no wars. And Victor Orban, the prime minister of Hungary, said the world has to have Trump back because everybody was afraid of Trump. Now that's what he said. So I'm not using that term, but I think they respected me. But he said, China was afraid, Russia was afraid, everybody was afraid. And I don't care what word they use. It probably that's even a better word if you want another truth. But let's use the word respect. They had respect for me. They had respect for the country.

你知道吗，我当总统的时候没有爆发任何战争。这是一件大事。在过去78年中，这种情况都没有发生过。但在我当总统的时候，我们没有战争。我们打败了ISIS，但那只是个我们开始时并没有打算打赢的战争。不过，想想看，我没有发动任何战争。匈牙利总理维克多·欧尔班说，世界需要特朗普回来，因为所有人都害怕特朗普。这是他说的。所以我不用那个词，但我觉得他们是尊重我的。他说，中国害怕，俄罗斯害怕，所有人都害怕。我不在乎他们用什么词。实际上，如果你想知道真相的话，可能那是个更好的词。但我们还是用“尊重”这个词吧。他们尊重我，他们尊重这个国家。

I mean, I ended the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, the Russian pipeline. Nobody else could have done that. I ended it. It was done. Then Biden comes in and he gave it. He approved it. So we're defending German in these other countries for peanuts compared to what it's worth. And they're paying the person would defending them against billions and billions of dollars for energy. I said, how does that work? And we headed out with them and it worked out good. They paid hundreds of billions of dollars or you wouldn't even have a NATO right now. You wouldn't have NATO if it wasn't for me.

我的意思是，我终止了“北溪2号”管道，那个俄罗斯的管道。没有其他人能做到这点，是我把它停了，停止了。然后拜登上台后又重新批了。我们花这么少的钱在保护德国和其他国家，而这些国家却用数十亿、上百亿美元购买能源，支付给我们要保护他们免受的那个对象（俄罗斯）。我说，这是怎么回事？我们跟他们讨论了，最后结果不错。他们支付了数千亿美元，否则现在根本不会有北约。如果没有我，北约根本就存在不了。

As the leader of the United States, you were the most powerful man in the world. As you mentioned, not only the most famous, but the most powerful. And if you become leader again, you will have unprecedented power. Just on your own personal psychology, what does that power do to you? Does it? Is there any threat of it corrupting how you see the world? No, I don't think so. Look, I've been there for four years. I could have done a big number in Hillary Clinton. I thought it looked terrible to take the president's wife and put her in prison. She's so lucky. I didn't do anything. She's so lucky. Hillary is a lucky woman because I had a lot of people pushing me too. They wanted to see something.

作为美国的领导人，你曾是世界上最有权势的人。正如你提到的，不仅是最有名的，也是最有权势的。如果你再次成为领导人，你将拥有前所未有的权力。仅从你个人的心理角度来看，这种权力对你有什么影响吗？会不会？它会不会改变你看世界的方式，甚至带来腐蚀性？不，我不这么认为。看，我曾经在那里待了四年。我本可以在希拉里·克林顿身上做出一番大动作。我觉得把总统的妻子关进监狱看起来很糟糕。她非常幸运，我什么都没做。她真的很幸运。希拉里是个幸运的女人，因为有很多人在推动我想要看到什么。

But I had, I could have done something very, but I thought it looked so bad. Think of it. You have the president of the United States. And you also had Secretary of State, right? She was. But you're going to put the president's wife in prison. And yet when I got out there, they have all these hoaxes. They're all hoaxes. But they have all these dishonest hoaxes, just like they did in the past with Russia, Russia, Russia. That was a hoax. The 51 different agencies or agents. That was a hoax. The whole thing was a hoax. There were so many hoaxes and scams. I didn't want to put her in jail. And I didn't. And I explained it to people. They say, lock her up, lock her up. It doesn't. We won. I said, we don't want to put her in jail. We want to bring the country together. I want to bring the country together. You don't bring the country together by putting her in jail.

但我本来是可以做点什么的，但我觉得那样看起来太糟糕了。想想看，你有美国总统，还有国务卿，对吧？她以前是国务卿。但你要把总统的妻子关进监狱。而当我出来后，他们有各种骗局，都是骗人的，就像以前的“俄罗斯、俄罗斯、俄罗斯”那样，那也是个骗局。51个不同的机构或特工，那也是个骗局。整个事情都是骗局。有那么多骗局和诡计。我不想把她关进监狱，而且我也没那么做。我向大家解释，他们说：“把她关起来，把她关起来。” 我说，不，我们赢了。我说，我们不想把她关起来，我们想让国家团结起来。我想让国家团结起来。你不是通过把她关进监狱来让国家团结的。

But then when I got out, they went to work on me. It's amazing. They suffer from massive Trump derangement syndrome, TDS. And I don't know if they're excurable from their standpoint. A lot of people are very interested in footage of UFOs. The Pentagon has released a few videos and there's been anecdotal reports from fighter pilots. So a lot of people want to know, will you help push the Pentagon to release more footage, which a lot of people claim is available? Oh, yes, sure. I would do that. I'd love to do that. I have to do that. But they also are pushing me on Kennedy. And I did release a lot, but people come to me and thank me not to do it. But I'll be doing that very early on. Yeah, no, but I would do that. There's a moment where you had some hesitation about Epstein releasing some of the documents on Epstein. Why the hesitation? I don't think I mean, I'm not involved. I never went to his island, fortunately. But a lot of people did. Why do you think so many smart, powerful people allowed him to get so close? He was a good salesman. He was, you know, a halo and hearty type of guy. He had some nice assets that he'd throw around like islands. But a lot of big people went to that island. But fortunately, I was not one of them. It's just very strange for a lot of people that the list of clients that went to the island has not been made public. Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? Probably well be, by the way. So if you were able to, you would be. Yeah, certainly take a look at it. Now Kennedy's interesting because it's so many years ago. You know, they do that for danger too, because, you know, in danger is certain people, etc, etc. So Kennedy is very different from the Epstein thing. But you had been trying to do the Epstein not have no problem with it. That's great to hear. What gives you strength when you're getting attacked? You're one of the most attacked people in the world. I think you can't care that much. I know people, they care so much about everything, like what people are saying. You can't care too much because you end up joking. One of the tragic things about life is that it ends. How often do you think about your death? Are you afraid of it? I have a friend who's very, very successful, and he's in his 80s, mid 80s, and he has been the exact same question. I said, I turned it around. I said, well, what about you? He said, I think about it every minute of every day. And then a week later he called me to tell me something, and he starts off the conversation by going tick, talk, tick, talk. Yeah. This is a dark person, you know, in a sense. But it is what it is. I mean, you know, if you're religious, you have, I think, a better feeling toward it. You know, you're supposed to go to heaven, ideally not hell, but you're supposed to go to heaven if you're good. I think our country is missing a lot of religion.

好吧，但当我出来后，他们就开始对付我了。真是不可思议。他们患上了严重的“特朗普妄想症”（TDS）。我不知道从他们的角度来看是否能治愈。很多人对不明飞行物（UFO）的视频很感兴趣。五角大楼已经发布了一些视频，还有飞行员的轶事报告。所以很多人想知道，你会推动五角大楼发布更多被认为存在的视频吗？哦，是的，当然。我愿意做这件事，我也必须做这件事。但他们也在敦促我公布肯尼迪（相关文件）。我已经发布了很多，但很多人来找我，希望我不要继续。但我会在早期阶段继续做这些事情。对，没有错，我会那样做的。你对于发布爱泼斯坦（Epstein）的一些文件有过些许犹豫。为什么会犹豫呢？我觉得我没有参与其中，我从来没去过他的小岛，幸运的是。但很多人确实去了。你为什么认为这么多聪明、有权势的人允许他接近自己呢？他是个好推销员。他是一个看起来健康强壮的家伙。他有一些好资产，比如岛屿。但很多大人物去了那个岛，幸运的是我不是其中之一。很多人觉得奇怪的是，去过那个岛的客户名单从未公开。是啊，这很有趣，不是吗？顺便说下，可能会公布。所以如果有机会的话，你会的。是的，我会考虑的。现在说回肯尼迪，这已经是很多年前的事情了。你知道，他们出于安全考虑，也会有某些人的危险，等等。所以肯尼迪与爱泼斯坦的情况非常不同。但你曾试图不发布爱泼斯坦（文件），没有问题的。这听起来很好。当你受到攻击时，是什么给你力量？你是世界上最受攻击的人之一。我认为你不能太在意。我认识一些人，他们非常在乎每一件事，比如别人怎么说。你不能太在意，否则你会被压垮。生活的悲剧之一就是它会结束。你经常想到你自己的死亡吗？你害怕它吗？我有个朋友，非常非常成功，现在已经80多岁了，接近85岁，他也被问过同样的问题。我反问了他一句："那你呢？" 他说，他每分每秒都在想着这个问题。大约一周后，他给我打电话说了些事情，开头就说"滴答，滴答。" 是啊，这是个很阴暗的人，从某种意义上说。但事实就是这样。我觉得如果你是宗教信仰者，你对这种事情会有更好的感觉。你知道，你应该去天堂，最好不要下地狱，但如果你是好人，你应该去天堂。我认为我们的国家现在非常缺乏宗教信仰。

I think it really was a much better place with religion. It was almost a guide, you know, to a certain extent, it was a guide. You want to be good to people. Without religion, there's no real, there are no guardrails. I'd love to see us get back to religion, more religion in this country. Well, Mr. President, thank you for putting yourself out there. And thank you for talking to me. Look, I love the country. I want to see the country be great. And we have a real chance of doing it, but it's our last chance. And I appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Donald Trump. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, as I've started doing here at the end of some episodes, let me make a few comments and answer a few questions. If you would like to submit questions, including in audio and video form, go to lexfriedman.com slash AMA or get in touch with me for whatever other reason at lexfriedman.com slash contact. I usually do listen to T-shirt, but I figured out for this episode, I'll keep my suit and tie on.

我认为有宗教的地方真的要好得多。宗教在某种程度上起到了一种指导作用。你会希望对人友善。没有宗教的话，就没有真正的、明确的规范。我希望我们能找回宗教，让这个国家有更多的宗教氛围。总统先生，感谢您站出来，并感谢您与我交谈。看，我爱这个国家，我希望国家变得伟大。我们有一个实现的机会，但这可能是最后的机会。对此我非常感激。谢谢。谢谢。感谢大家收听与唐纳德·特朗普的对话。为了支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，和我在一些节目末尾开始做的事情一样，让我发表一些评论并回答一些问题。如果你想提交问题，包括音频和视频形式的，请访问 lexfriedman.com/AMA 或者可以通过 lexfriedman.com/contact 联系我做其他事。我通常会穿 T 恤，但这期节目我决定穿着西装打领带。

So first, this might be a good moment to look back a bit. I've been doing this podcast for over six years. And I first and foremost have to say thank you. I'm truly grateful for the support and the love I've gotten along the way. It's been, I would say, the most unlikely journey. And on most days, I barely feel like I know what I'm doing. But I wanted to talk a bit about how I approach these conversations. Now, each conversation is its own unique puzzle. So I can't speak generally to how I approach these. But here, it may be useful to describe how I approach conversations with world leaders, of which I hope to have many more and do a better job every time. I read a lot of history and I admire the historian perspective. As an example, I admire William Shire, the author of many books on Hitler, including The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. He was there and lived through it and covered it objectively to the degree that one could. Academic historians, by the way, criticize him for being a poor historian because he editorialized a little too much. I think those same folks criticize Dan Carlin and his hardcore history podcast. I respect their criticism, but I fundamentally disagree.

首先，这可能是一个回顾的好时刻。我已经做这个播客超过六年了。首先，我要说声感谢。衷心感谢一路上得到的支持和爱。这段旅程真是难以置信，大多数时候，我几乎觉得自己不知道在做什么。但我想聊一下我是如何看待这些对话的。每一次对话都像是一个独特的拼图，所以我不能一概而论我的方法。但我可以说一下我如何对待与世界领导人的对话，希望未来能有更多这样的对话，并且每次都能做得更好。我读了很多历史书，非常欣赏历史学家的视角。举个例子，我很敬佩威廉·夏伊勒，他写了很多关于希特勒的书，包括《第三帝国的兴亡》。他亲历并报道了那段历史，尽量做到客观。顺便说一下，学术历史学家批评他不是个好历史学家，因为他掺杂了太多个人观点。我觉得那些人也批评丹·卡林和他的硬核历史播客。虽然我尊重他们的批评，但我根本不同意。

So in these conversations with world leaders, I try to put on my historian hat. I think in the realm of truth and public discourse, there's a spectrum. Between the ephemeral and the eternal. The outraged mob and clickbait journalists are often focused on the ephemeral. The current thing, the current viral shitstormer of mockery and derision. But when the battle of the day is done, most of it will be forgotten. A few true ideas will remain and those, the historian hopes to capture. Now, this is much easier said than done. It's not just about having the right ideals and the integrity to stick by them. It's not even just about having the actual skill of talking, which I still think I suck at. But let's say it's a work in progress.

在这些与世界领导人的对话中，我尝试戴上历史学家的帽子。我认为在真理和公众话语领域，有一个光谱。在短暂和永恒之间。愤怒的群众和吸引眼球的记者往往关注于短暂的事情。当前的热点话题、当前的网络狂潮和嘲笑讽刺。当一天的战斗结束时，大多数东西都会被遗忘。只有少数真正的想法会留下来，而历史学家希望捕捉这些想法。当然，这说起来容易做起来难。这不仅涉及到拥有正确的理念和坚持这些理念的诚信。这甚至不仅仅是关于拥有说话的技巧——我仍然觉得自己这方面不够好。但我们可以说，这仍在不断进步。

You also have to make the scheduling work and set up the entirety of the environment in a way that is conducive to such a conversation. This is hard, really hard, with political and business leaders. They are usually super busy and in some cases, super nervous because, well, they've been screwed over so many times with clickbait got your journalism. So to convince them and their team to talk for two, three, four, five hours is hard. And I do think a good conversation requires that kind of duration. And I've been thinking a lot about why. I don't think it's just about needing the actual time of three hours to cover all the content.

你还需要让时间安排合理，并且将整个环境设置得适合作这样的对话。这很难，真的很难，尤其是对于政治和商业领袖来说。他们通常都非常忙，有时候也非常紧张，因为他们已经被那些标题党新闻坑害过太多次了。所以，要说服他们和他们的团队进行两到五个小时的对话是很困难的。而且我确实认为一场好的对话需要这样的时长。我一直在思考为什么这样。我认为并不仅仅是需要三小时的实际时间来涵盖所有内容。

I think the longer form with a hypothetical skilled conversationalist relaxes things and allows people to go on tangents and to banter about the details because I think it's in the details that the beautiful complexity of the person is brought to light. Anyway, I look forward to talking to more world leaders and doing a better job every time, as I said. I would love to do interviews with Kamala Harris and some other political figures on the left and right, including Tim Walz, ALC, Bernie, Barack Obama, Bill and Hillary.

我认为，和一位假设中的擅长对话的人进行比较长时间的交流可以让气氛更放松，人们可以自由地聊些题外话，并讨论细节，因为我觉得正是在细节中，人物的美丽复杂性才得以显现。总之，我期待与更多的世界领导人交谈，并且每次都做得更好。正如我所说的，我很想采访卡玛拉·哈里斯以及其他一些左翼和右翼的政治人物，包括蒂姆·沃尔兹、亚历山德里亚·奥卡西奥-科尔特斯（AOC）、伯尼·桑德斯、巴拉克·奥巴马、比尔和希拉里·克林顿。

And on the right, JD Vance, Vivek, George W and so on. And on the topic of politics, let me say as an immigrant, I love this country, the United States of America. I do believe it is the greatest nation on earth. And I'm grateful for the people on the left and the right who step into the arena of politics to fight for this country that I do believe they all love as well. I have reached out to Kamala Harris, but not many of the others. I probably should do a better job with that. But I've been doing most of this myself, all the re-child scheduling research prep, recording and so on.

在右边，有JD万斯、维维克、乔治W等人。谈到政治这个话题，作为一个移民，我想说我爱这个国家——美利坚合众国。我确实认为这是地球上最伟大的国家。我对那些活跃在政坛上的左翼和右翼的人们表示感激，因为他们为了我相信他们也同样深爱的这个国家而奋斗。我已经联系过卡玛拉·哈里斯，但并没有联系很多其他人。我可能应该在这方面做得更好。不过，我大部分事情都是自己在做，包括重新安排时间、研究准备、录制等等。

And on top of that, I very much have been suffering from impostor syndrome, with a voice in my head constantly pointing out what I'm doing a shitty job. Plus, a few folks graciously remind me on the internet, the very same sentiment of this aforementioned voice. All of this, while I have the option of just hiding away at MIT, programming robots and doing some cool AI research with a few grad students, or maybe joining an AI company, or maybe starting my own, all these options make me truly happy. But like I said, most days, I barely know what I'm doing so, who knows what the future holds. Most importantly, I'm forever grateful for all of you, for your patience and your support. Throughout this rollercoaster of the life I've been on, I love you all.

此外，我一直深受冒名顶替综合症的困扰，脑海中总有一个声音在不断指出我做得很差劲。再加上一些人在互联网上好心地提醒我，他们与这个声音的看法如出一辙。就是在这种情况下，我其实有选择可以躲在麻省理工学院，编程机器人，和一些研究生一起做些很酷的人工智能研究，或者加入一家AI公司，又或者创办自己的企业，这些选项都让我感到非常开心。但就像我说的，大多数时候我几乎不知道自己在做什么，所以谁也不知道未来会怎样。最重要的是，我永远感激你们所有人的耐心和支持。感谢你们陪我走过这段人生的过山车，我爱你们。

Okay, now let me go on to some of the questions that people had. I was asked by a few people to comment on Pavel Durovara's and on X being banned in Brazil. Let me first briefly comment on the Durov arrest. So basic facts. Pavel Durovara's CEO of Telegram, which is a messenger app that has an encryption mode. It's not on by default, and most people don't use the end-to-end encryption, but some do. Pavel was arrested in France on a long list of charges related to quote-unquote criminal activity carried out on the telegram platform and for quote-unquote providing unlicensed cryptology services. I think Telegram is indeed used for criminal activity by a small minority of its users, for example, by terrorist groups to communicate. And I think we all agree that terrorism is bad. But here's the problem. As the old saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. And there are many cases in which the world unilaterally agrees who the terrorists are.

好的，现在让我来回答一些大家提到的问题。一些人让我评论一下帕维尔·杜罗夫和某平台在巴西被禁的事情。首先，我简单谈一下杜罗夫的被捕情况。 一些基本事实：帕维尔·杜罗夫是消息应用程序Telegram的CEO，这个应用程序具有加密模式，但默认情况下不会开启，大多数人也不使用端到端加密，但有少部分人会使用。帕维尔在法国被捕，罪名是涉及Telegram平台上所谓的“犯罪活动”和提供所谓的“未经许可的加密服务”。 我认为，Telegram确实被其少数用户，用于犯罪活动，例如恐怖组织用来交流。我相信大家都同意恐怖主义是坏的。但问题在于，如老话所说，一个人的恐怖分子可能是另一个人的自由斗士。而在很多情况下，世界上对于谁是恐怖分子是有一致认同的。

But there are other cases when governments, especially authoritarian and client governments, tend to progandize and just call whoever's in the opposition, whoever opposes them terrorists. There is some room for nuance here. But to me, at this time, it seems to obviously be a power grab by government wanting to have backdoor access into every platform so they can have censorship power against the opposition. I think generally governments stay out of censoring or even pressuring social media platforms. And I think arresting a CEO of a tech company for the things said on the platform he built is just nuts. It has a chilling effect on him, on people working at Telegram, and on people working at every social media company, and also people thinking of launching a new social media company. Same is the case of X being banned in Brazil. It's, I think, a power grab by El Shandre de Marias, a Supreme Court justice in Brazil. He ordered X to block certain accounts that are spreading quote unquote misinformation. Elon and X denied the request. Then, de Marias threatened to arrest X representatives in Brazil, and in response to that, X pulled the representatives out of Brazil, obviously, to protect them. And now, X having no representatives in Brazil apparently violates the law based on this de Marias banned X in Brazil. Once again, it's an authoritarian figure seeking censorship power over the channels of communication. I understand that this is complicated because there are evil people in the world, and part of the role of government is to protect us from those evil people. But, as Benjamin Franklin said, those who can give up a central liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. So, it's a trade-off. But, I think, in many places in the world, many governments have leaned too far away at this time from liberty.

但还有其他情况，尤其是在威权主义和客户政府的背景下，政府往往会进行宣传，把任何反对他们的人称为恐怖分子。在这方面还是有一些细微差别的。不过在我看来，目前这显然是政府企图获取对每个平台的后门访问权限，以便对反对派进行审查和控制。我认为一般来说，政府不会介入审查甚至施压社交媒体平台。而且我觉得，逮捕科技公司CEO仅仅是因为他建立的平台上的言论，是非常荒谬的。这会对他本人、Telegram的员工以及所有社交媒体公司的工作人员，甚至有意创办新社交媒体公司的人产生寒蝉效应。 在巴西禁用X平台的情况也是如此。我认为这是巴西最高法院法官El Shandre de Marias的权力争夺战。他命令X（即Twitter）封锁一些传播所谓“虚假信息”的账号。Elon Musk和X拒绝了这项要求。随后，de Marias威胁要逮捕X在巴西的代表，为了保护他们，X撤出了在巴西的代表。现在，根据de Marias的说法，X在巴西没有代表显然违反了法律，因此X在巴西被禁用。这再次显现了一位威权人物试图掌控通讯渠道的审查权力。 我理解这个问题的复杂性，因为世界上确实存在邪恶的人，政府的部分职责是保护我们免受这些人的侵害。但是，正如本杰明·富兰克林所说，放弃基本自由以换取暂时的安全是不可取的。这是一种权衡取舍。不过，我认为，如今世界上很多地方的政府在自由和安全之间的平衡方面已经过分偏向了安全。

Okay, next up, I got a question on AI, which I emotionally connected with. I'll condense it as follows. Hello, Lex. I'm a programmer, and I have a deep fear of slipping into irrelevance because I am worried that AI will soon exceed my programming skills. Let me first say that I relate to your fear. It's scary to have a thing that gives you a career and gives you meaning to be taken away. For me, programming is a passion, and if not for this podcast, it would probably, at least in part, be my profession. So, I get an uncomfortable feeling every time Claude, the LLM I use for coding at this time, just writes a lot of excellent, approximately correct code. I think you can make a good case that it already exceeds the skill of many programmers, at least in the same way that the collective intelligence of stack overflow exceeds the skill of many programmers, many individual programmers. But, in many ways, it still does not. But, I think, eventually, more and more, the task, the profession of programming, will be one of writing natural language prompts. I think the right thing to do, and what I'm at least doing, is to ride the wave of the ever-improving code generating LLMs, and keep transforming myself into a big-picture designer versus low-level tinkerer. What I'm doing, and what I recommend you do, is continually switch to whatever state of the R2 list for generating code. So, for me, currently, I recently switched from VS Code to Cursor, and before that, it was Emacs to VS Code switch. So, Cursor is this editor that's based on VS Code that leans heavily on LLMs and integrates the code generation really nicely into the editing process. So, it makes it super easy to continually use the LLMs.

好的，接下来，我收到一个关于人工智能的问题，我在情感上非常有共鸣。我会将它简化如下： 你好，Lex。我是一名程序员，我非常害怕自己会变得无关紧要，因为我担心人工智能很快会超过我的编程技能。首先，我非常理解你的这种恐惧。当一个能提供职业和意义的东西被夺走时，那种感觉确实很可怕。对我来说，编程是一种热情，如果不是这个播客，至少部分时间里这可能是我的职业。所以，每次当我使用Claude（我当前用来编程的LLM）写出很多优秀且大致正确的代码时，我都会感到不舒服。我认为可以说它已经超越了许多程序员的技能，至少像Stack Overflow上的集体智慧超过了很多个别程序员的技能一样。但在很多方面，它还未达到这一点。不过，我认为最终程序员的任务和职业会越来越多地转向写自然语言提示语。我认为正确的做法，至少我正在做的，是顺势而为，利用不断改进的代码生成LLM，转变自己成为一个宏观设计师而非低级操作者。 我正在做的，也是我建议你做的，就是不断切换到当前最新的用于生成代码的工具。所以，对于我来说，目前我最近从VS Code切换到Cursor，在这之前是从Emacs切换到VS Code。Cursor是一个基于VS Code的编辑器，它非常依赖LLM，并很好地将代码生成集成到编辑过程中。因此，它使得持续使用LLM变得非常容易。

So, what I would advise, and what I'm trying to do myself, is to learn how to use it into master its code generation capabilities. I personally try to now allocate a significant amount of time to designing with natural language first, versus writing code from scratch. So, using my understanding of programming to edit the code that's generated by the LLM versus sort of writing it from scratch, and then using the LLM to generate small parts of the code. I see it as a skill that I should develop and parallel to my programming skill. I think this applies to many other careers, too. Don't compete with AI for your job. Learn to use the AI to do that job better. But yes, it is scary, and some deep sort of human level, the threat of being replaced. But at least I think we'll be okay.

所以，我的建议是，也是我自己在尝试做的，就是学习如何使用AI并掌握其代码生成能力。我个人现在试图分配相当多的时间，首先用自然语言进行设计，而不是从头开始写代码。因此，我会利用自己对编程的理解来编辑由大型语言模型生成的代码，而不是从头开始写，然后使用大型语言模型来生成部分代码。我认为这是一项我应该和编程技能并行发展的技能。我觉得这对很多其他职业也适用。不要和AI抢工作，而是学习如何利用AI更好地完成工作。当然，这确实让人感到害怕，深层次的人类威胁感——被取代的威胁。但至少，我认为我们会没事的。

All right, next up, I got a very nice audio message and question from a gentleman who is 27, and feeling a lot of anxiety about the future. Just recently, he graduated with a bachelor's degree, and he's thinking about going to grad school for biomedical engineering. But there is a lot of anxiety. He mentioned anxiety many times in the message. It took him an extra while to get his degree, so he mentioned he would be 32 by the time he's done with his PhD. So, it's a big investment. But he said in his heart, he feels like he's a scientist. I think that's the most important part of his message, of your message. By the way, I'll figure out how to best include audio and video messages in future episodes. Now, onto the question. So, thank you for telling me your story and for submitting the question.

好的，接下来我要分享一位27岁先生发来的非常友好的语音消息和问题。他对未来感到非常焦虑。最近，他刚刚获得了学士学位，现在在考虑报考生物医学工程研究生。但他提到自己有很多焦虑情绪，在消息中多次提到焦虑。他拿到学位花了比别人更长的时间，所以他说等他拿到博士学位的时候，他将会是32岁。所以这是一个很大的投资。但他说在他心里，他觉得自己是一个科学家。我认为这是他信息中最重要的部分。顺便说一下，我会想办法如何在以后的节目中更好地包含音频和视频消息。现在，说回问题。感谢你告诉我你的故事并提交问题。

My own life story is similar to yours. I went to Drexel University for my bachelor's, master's, and doctorate degrees. And I took a while just as you're doing. I did a lot of non-standard things that weren't any good for some hypothetical career I'm supposed to have. I trained and competed in Judo and Jiu Jitsu for my entire 20s. Got a black belt from it. I wrote a lot, including a lot of really crappy poetry. I read a large amount of non-technical books, history, philosophy, and literature. I took courses on literature and philosophy that weren't at all required for my computer science and electrical engineering degrees, like a course on James Joyce. I played guitar in bars around town. I took a lot of technical classes, many, for example, on theoretical computer science, that were way more than were needed for the degree. I did a lot of research and I coded up a bunch of projects that didn't directly contribute to my dissertation. It was pure curiosity and the joy of exploring.

我的人生故事和你很相似。我在德雷塞尔大学获得了学士、硕士和博士学位。而且我也花了很多时间完成学业，正如你现在所做的那样。我做了很多与假想中的职业发展不相关的事情。我在整个20多岁期间训练和参加柔道与柔术比赛，并获得了黑带。我写了很多东西，包括大量的拙劣诗歌。我读了很多非技术类的书籍，如历史、哲学和文学。我选修了一些根本不是为了计算机科学和电气工程学位必修的文学和哲学课程，比如詹姆斯·乔伊斯的课程。我在镇上的酒吧里弹吉他。我还上了很多技术课程，比如理论计算机科学的课程，这些课程远远超出了学位的要求。我做了很多研究，编写了许多与论文直接无关的项目。这纯粹是出于好奇和探索的快乐。

So, like you, I took the long way home, as they say, and I regret none of it. Throughout that, people around me and even people who loved me wanted me to hurry up and to focus, especially because I had very little money. I had a sense like time was running out for me to take the needed steps towards a reasonable career. Just like you, I was filled with anxiety and I still am filled with anxiety to this day. I think the right thing to do is not to run away from the anxiety but to lean into it and channel it into pursuing with everything you got, the things you're passionate about. As you said, very importantly, in your heart, you know you're a scientist.

所以，就像你一样，我选择了所谓的“绕远路”回家，我对此毫不后悔。在这段过程中，我身边的人，甚至爱我的人，都希望我加快脚步，集中精力，尤其因为我当时几乎没有什么钱。我感觉时间在流逝，必须采取必要的步骤去追求一份体面的职业。就像你一样，我充满了焦虑，到现在依然如此。我认为正确的做法不是逃避焦虑，而是迎接它，将它转化为全力追求你热爱的事情的动力。正如你所说，非常重要的是，你内心知道你是个科学家。

So, that's it. You know exactly what to do. Pursue the desire to be a scientist with everything you got. Get to a good grad school, find a good advisor, and do epic shit with them. And it may turn out in the end that your life will have unexpected chapters, but as long as you're chasing dreams and goals with absolute, unwavering dedication, good stuff will come with it. And also, try your best to be a good person.

所以，就是这样。你已经完全知道该怎么做了。用全部的力量追寻成为科学家的梦想。考上一个好的研究生院，找到一个好的导师，和他们一起做些了不起的事情。最终，你的人生可能会有意想不到的篇章，但只要你以坚定不移的决心追逐梦想和目标，好事就会随之而来。同时，尽量做到一个好人。

This might be a good place to read the words if by Roger Kippling that I often return to when I feel lost and I'm looking for guidance on how to be a better man. If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blame it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you but make allowance for their doubting too. If you can wait and not be tired by waiting or being lied about don't deal in lies or being hated don't give way to hating and yet don't look too good nor talk too wise.

当我感到迷茫并寻求如何成为一个更好的人时，我常常会回到罗杰·吉普林的这段话，也许这是一个好地方来阅读这些话。 如果在周围的人都失去理智并责怪你时，你仍能冷静自持； 如果在所有人都怀疑你时，你仍能相信自己，但也考虑到他们的怀疑； 如果你能够等待并且不因等待而感到疲倦，或当被人撒谎时，不以谎言对待他人，或当被人憎恨时，不以怨恨回击； 而且你既不显得过于完美，也不过于自作聪明。

If you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thoughts your aim, if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same. If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by naves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken and stoop and build them up with worn-out tools. If you can make one heap of all your winnings and risk it on one turn of pitch and toss and lose and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss. If you can force your heart to nerve and sin you to serve your turn long after they're gone and so hold on when there's nothing in you except the will which says to them hold on.

如果你能有梦想却不让梦主宰你，如果你能思考却不让想法成为目标，如果你能面对成功和灾难，并把这两者同等看待。如果你能忍受听到自己说过的真理被无赖扭曲成陷阱来欺骗傻瓜，或看着自己付出生命代价的事物被摧毁，然后弯下身去用旧工具重新建起。如果你能把所有的赢利堆成一堆，在一次投掷中一赌并失去，然后重新开始，绝口不提失去的事。如果你能在内心已空无一物时，强迫自己继续坚守，只因为内心有一股力量告诉你，坚持住。

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings and lose the common touch if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you if all men count with you but none too much. If you can fill down for giving minute with sixty seconds worth of distance run yours is the earth and everything that's in it and which is more you'll be a man my son. Thank you for listening and see you next time.

如果你能在人群中说话并保持美德，或与国王同行而不失平常心；如果敌人和挚友都不能伤害你；如果所有人对你而言都很重要，但没有一人过于重要；如果你可以把每一分钟都用来做有意义的事，那么整个世界及其一切都将属于你。而且更重要的是，你将真正成为一个顶天立地的人，我的儿子。谢谢你的聆听，下次再见。