Victor Riparbelli: Why the Future of Video is Synthetic - YouTube
发布时间 2023-10-03 19:00:25 来源
中英文字稿 
Welcome everyone to the very first episode of Generative Now. This is a podcast where we talk to the builders who are creating the world's most exciting AI products and companies. We'll get their perspectives on how AI will impact the future and the world we live in right now today. I'm your host, Michael McNatto. I'm a partner at Lightspeed. We are a global venture capital firm that was one of the earliest investors in companies like Snap, Affirm, Nest, RubHub, Giffy, and many others.
欢迎大家来到《生成力》的第一集。这是一个播客节目，我们将与创造全球最令人兴奋的人工智能产品和公司的开发者们进行交流。我们将了解他们对人工智能如何影响未来和我们今天生活的世界的看法。我是主持人迈克尔·麦克纳托。我是一家全球风险投资公司Lightspeed的合伙人。我们是Snap、Affirm、Nest、RubHub、Giffy等公司的最早投资者之一。
And we've been active investors in artificial intelligence for years, having invested over a billion dollars across more than 50 AI native companies. Prior to joining Lightspeed, I was the co-founder and CEO of Anchor, the world's biggest podcast platform which was acquired by Spotify in 2019. So why are we doing this podcast? Well, we're in the middle of a tech revolution as a result of AI.
我们多年来一直是人工智能领域的积极投资者，投资了超过50家人工智能公司，总计超过10亿美元。在加入Lightspeed之前，我是Anchor的联合创始人兼首席执行官，Anchor是世界上最大的播客平台，2019年被Spotify收购。那么我们为什么要做这个播客呢？因为我们正处在人工智能带来的科技革命之中。
And I know when I was personally building my company, I learned so many valuable lessons by listening to podcasts that interviewed founders of companies from the mobile revolution. And when we looked around Spotify and YouTube for podcasts that were putting a spotlight on the people actually building AI companies, we couldn't really find that many. So we decided to launch our own show and that is this one, Generative Now.
当我个人建立公司的时候，通过听采访移动革命中公司创始人的播客，我学到了很多宝贵的经验教训。当我们在Spotify和YouTube上寻找关于实际建立AI公司的播客时，我们发现并不是很多。所以我们决定推出自己的节目，就是这个，《生成现在》。
Our goal is to publish weekly episodes featuring conversations that are as interesting as they are insightful. And we hope you come along for the right. And we've got an awesome first episode for you. I recently talked to Victor Ripperbelly, co-founder and CEO of Synthesia, a company that makes video production for businesses a thousand times easier.
我们的目标是每周发布具有趣味性和见解性的对话，希望您能加入我们。我们为您准备了一集非常棒的首播。最近我采访了Synthesia的联合创始人兼首席执行官Victor Ripperbelly，这家公司通过制作视频为企业提供了千倍便利。
With Synthesia, users simply type in their script and AI will bring their words to life, using AI-generated avatars and voices. Victor's longtime interest in generative AI goes all the way back to his childhood when he had a fascination with sci-fi and also with video games like World of Warcraft and Rollercoaster Tycoon. In his mind, those early-day hobbies helped sculpt his strategic thinking and primed him for creating new tech and new businesses.
通过Synthesia，用户只需输入他们的剧本，人工智能就会使用生成的头像和声音把他们的文字变得生动起来。维克多对生成式人工智能的长期兴趣可以追溯到他的童年时期，当时他对科幻小说和视频游戏（如魔兽世界和过山车大亨）着迷。在他看来，那些早期的爱好帮助塑造了他的战略思维，为他创造新的技术和新的业务奠定了基础。
So without further ado, have a listen to this conversation I had with Victor Ripperbelly, the CEO and co-founder of Synthesia. Victor, welcome. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this for a while. So I would love to hear about your early days, you growing up, your interest as a kid, like give us the whole Victor story before we get to Synthesia.
所以，话不多说，现在就听听我与Synthesia的首席执行官兼联合创始人维克多·里帕贝利的对话吧。维克多，欢迎你。很高兴见到你。谢谢你邀请我。是的，我已经期待这个机会很久了。我很想听听你的早年经历，你成长过程中的故事，小时候的兴趣爱好，给我们聊聊维克多的整个故事，然后再谈到Synthesia。
I think my path to what's founded Synthesia in proper style, when I was very young, loved computers, loved gaming from a very early age and could spend way more hours than my parents thought was appropriate on tinkering with the computer or playing with it. And probably a pretty classical background, so to be honest, I also love science fiction. I grew up reading lots of books hanging out at the local library.
我认为我的开创Synthesia的道路是在合适的时机，当我很小的时候就喜欢电脑，很早就喜欢游戏，并且可以花比父母认为合适的时间更多时间在电脑上进行修理或玩耍。或许是一个相当传统的背景，老实说，我也喜欢科幻小说。我在当地图书馆读了很多书长大。
And kind of by my end teenage years, figured that this interest I had in computers actually also returned into a career, which I don't know why, but those actually quite surprising to me. But sort of picked up on that and started out doing, you know, building local, building websites, the local businesses, e-commerce sites, there's a local store in Denmark that sells tennis equipment, which I built like 12, 15 years ago.
在我快要结束十几岁的时候，我发现自己对计算机的兴趣实际上也可以成为一种职业，这个事实对我来说相当惊讶。我开始建立本地企业的网站，做电子商务网站，有一家在丹麦卖网球装备的本地店，我大约12-15年前就帮他们建立了网站。
Would you write that in if it was 12, 15 years ago? Well, the thing is like, I'm not a developer, like I'm a pretty crappy developer, but I'll always be good at like, you know, just taking existing platforms and building ones. So I think that one was like Magento, you know, we'd do like a kind of one click deploy, set it up. You don't have to like get deep into the code, or we just like set up something that would do the trait for like, at least most like local businesses.
如果这是12, 15年前，你会写出来吗？其实，我不是一个开发者，我是一个相当糟糕的开发者，但我总是擅长于带来现有平台并构建新的平台。所以我觉得这个像是Magento，我们可以做类似于一键部署的东西，设置好就行。你不需要深入编码，或者我们可以设置一些能够适用于大多数本地企业的功能。
And I found myself, I think, generally more interested in like the product and the growth than like being a great developer. And I did that for a couple of years. And sort of naturally, I guess, transition into the Danish startup ecosystem. And I started working at a Danish venture studio. I think I was in number six or seven and Stefan, who's my co-founder today was like one employee before me. And in this venture studio, basically the kind of idea was instead of, you know, raising money and investing it in companies like most VCs do, the idea here was to actually start the business system selves. And so I kind of helped with that. I wasn't the founder, I usually like second or third income man. And I was always wearing this kind of product and growth hat using my kind of technical chops to accelerate the business was product market fit as quickly as possible. And that was really fun. It was involved in a bunch of different things, some that worked, some that didn't. But during that time, really figured out that I love building products and I never want to build a company for myself.
我发现自己更感兴趣的是产品和增长，而不是成为一个出色的开发者。我这样做了几年。然后，我自然地转向了丹麦的初创企业生态系统。我开始在一个丹麦风险企业工作室工作。我想我是第六或第七个工作室的成员，我的今天的联合创始人Stefan比我早一个员工加入。在这个风险企业工作室里，基本的想法是，不像大多数风投公司那样筹集资金并投资，我们的想法是实际上自己启动业务系统。所以我在这方面有帮助。我不是创始人，通常是第二或第三重要的人。我总是戴着产品和增长的帽子，利用我的技术能力来尽快推动产品市场的适配。这真的很有趣。我参与了许多不同的事情，有些成功，有些失败。但在那段时间里，我真正了解到我喜欢构建产品，但我永远不想为自己创办公司。
By the end of this, I went to, I did one semester at Stainford in this kind of exchange program, Danish University. When I came back from there, I just experienced the thing, you know, very different culture, very different mindset. As much as I love Denmark and the values and the society that, you know, that's prevalent there. There are really met people who have to think big, have crazy idea, but just absolutely loved it. And so I kind of was in Denmark and I knew I wanted to start a company, but I'd also during those years working at Venture Studio kind of figured that I wasn't super excited about like building accounting software or business operations tools. I have this huge interest in sci-fi and like the frontiers of technology.
在这个期间结束时，我参加了一个交换项目，在丹麦大学度过了一个学期。当我从那里回来时，我经历了一些事情，你知道，非常不同的文化，非常不同的思维方式。尽管我热爱丹麦以及那里盛行的价值观和社会，但我真的遇到了一些有着大胆想法和疯狂想法的人，让我非常喜欢。所以我在丹麦的时候就知道我想要创办一家公司，但在那些年里在风险工作室工作时我也逐渐发现我并不是特别热衷于建立会计软件或商业运营工具。我对科幻和技术前沿有着浓厚的兴趣。
You mentioned sci-fi a couple of times. You mentioned like when you were a kid, you were in a sci-fi. I'd love to, I think I know where you were about to go with this because you and I caught up, but I'd love to go back to the sci-fi thing and hear more about what kind of sci-fi you were into as a kid.
你几次提到了科幻题材。你提到小时候就对科幻很感兴趣。我想我知道你要说什么了，因为我们已经交流过了，但我很想再回到科幻那个话题，听听你小时候都喜欢看哪些科幻作品。
Yeah, of course. Also, when I grew up, the first console I had was a game buy, which I played, you know, like Mario, Mario, all those types of fun things. And also for the first time, I think fill in love with the Zelda series. I actually just, I bought an Nintendo Switch like six months ago just to play the new Zelda. Me too. Me too. You know they're going to do like a movie of this now. They did the Super Mario movie and it's going to be incredible. Yeah. It's an awesome, amazing franchise. And I think it's actually one of the fondest memories of my childhood is playing Ocarina of Time and Madras Mask on Nintendo 64. Like just two amazing games that I could get lost in for hours.
是的，当然啦。我长大的时候，我拥有的第一款游戏主机是一个游戏购买机，我玩过的游戏，你知道的，像马里奥，马里奥，所有那些有趣的游戏。而且我第一次也是迷恋上了《塞尔达传说》系列。实际上，就是因为这个原因，我大约六个月前才购买了任天堂Switch主机来玩新版的《塞尔达传说》。我也是。我也是。你知道他们现在要做一部这个游戏的电影吧。他们已经做了超级马里奥电影，肯定会很精彩。是的，这是一项令人敬畏的优秀系列。我认为在我童年的美好记忆中，玩任天堂64上的《时光之笛》和《魔力面具》就是其中之一。这两款令人惊叹的游戏让我可以迷失其中数小时。
And when I got a little bit older, a world of Warcraft was definitely like a big theme in my teenage years. Not something my parents thought was amazing, but when I look back at it now, I actually think that, you know, in moderation, I think games with this amazing kind of microcosm of the real world that really can train your decision-making leadership, things like that. I ran a quite big world of Warcraft Guild when I was 12 or 13 years old. And it was like, I don't know, 40, 50 people. And I remember like my voice was still, you know, very, very light. It was like 12 years old. So I had to like make my voice deeper with some team speed mod. We could like load the pitch a little bit. And I wasn't allowed to stay up like after 10 p.m. So when we were doing like rates and things like that, I had to kind of like pretend my computer crashed and then sneak out of bed again to start it out and then like finish the rest of the rate. But I think even though, you know, I definitely think I played a few probably a bit too much. I think, you know, there's like an in-game economy, like there's a bunch of people that kind of rally around doing something, even if like killing dragons. I think you learned so much from those things and think it's like massively underappreciated.
当我长大一点的时候，《魔兽世界》绝对是我十几岁的时候的一个重要主题。并不是我父母觉得很棒的东西，但是当我回想起来的时候，我觉得，适度而言，这种游戏真的是一个微观的现实世界，可以训练你的决策能力和领导力。当我12或13岁的时候，我组织了一个相当大规模的《魔兽世界公会》。大概有40、50人。我记得当时我的声音还很轻，因为我只有12岁，所以我用一些软件调低了我的声音。我不能在晚上10点后熬夜，所以我们进行副本什么的时候，我得假装电脑坏掉，然后悄悄溜下床处理问题，然后继续剩下的部分。尽管我肯定玩得有点过头，但是在游戏中有一个经济系统，有很多人围绕着做一些事情，就算是杀龙也好。我觉得你可以从这些事情中学到很多东西，而且这种学习被大家低估了。
And as I was speaking to an investor like a couple of months ago, the guy's like, what was the one stick will you look for in a founder? And by, you know, kind of slightly cheeky answers, like someone who played a lot of video games, they were a kid. As you mean, both the candy crush. I think it teaches you so much. Yeah, I agree. So that was that that's that's like one of the big things. And I also played lots of like rollercoaster, tycoon and riddler and all these kind of games.
几个月前我和一位投资者交谈时，他问我在创始人身上寻找的最重要的品质是什么。我的回答有点俏皮，我说我会选择那些小时候玩过很多视频游戏的人。比如《糖果传奇》。我觉得玩游戏可以让人学到很多东西。是的，我同意。这就是其中一个重要的品质。我也玩过很多像《过山车大亨》、《谜题》这类游戏。
Actually, my late teenager didn't play that many games. I started being just in a music production as I love music, my biggest hobby outside of work, especially electronic music, housing, techno, to start producing DJing. I just thought that was going to be like my career path and didn't become that. But the why not? Why did you do that? I think I felt I had much more flair for building products. Like, I felt like it was much better at a tech than I was at music. I didn't feel like I was like gifted.
事实上，我年青时并没有玩很多游戏。我开始专注于音乐制作，因为我热爱音乐，这是我工作以外最大的爱好，特别是电子音乐、house音乐和techno音乐，开始进行DJ的制作。我曾以为这会成为我的职业生涯，但最终并没有。但为什么不呢？为什么不继续？我觉得我更擅长产品开发。我觉得在科技方面要比音乐更优秀。我并没有觉得自己有天赋。
So I kind of it's still a huge interest for me. And actually, like one and a half years ago, I started using music a little bit again. This is like a fun kind of little thing I do with my free time. But I do think I actually took a lot of that with me when I when I found this in easier without jumping head here because I've always had a huge interest in creative tools, maybe because I've never been like very good at them.
所以我还是对这个非常感兴趣。实际上，大约一年半前，我开始再次玩起了音乐。这在我闲暇时间是一种有趣的小事情。但我觉得当我发现这个更容易的方法时，我确实把很多这些经验带到了这里，因为我一直对创意工具非常感兴趣，也许是因为我从来不太擅长使用它们。
But I love playing around in Photoshop, love after effects, I love Ableton Live, which is like a music production suite. And so I think a lot of the mental models around how you create content digitally, I think some of those things is just like rummage around in your head. It's not like I'm actually just thinking about that when I think about product.
我喜欢在Photoshop中玩耍，喜欢After Effects，我喜欢Ableton Live，它就像一个音乐制作套件。所以我认为很多关于如何在数字环境下创作内容的思维模式，我觉得有些东西就像在你脑海中翻找一样。当我考虑产品时，并不是我实际在想这些东西。
But I think having those experiences and playing around with those types of technologies definitely has helped shape a lot of thinking around around Cynthia, where essentially we're also trying to take something that used to be a moles entirely physical process. You run them up with a camera and film some of the real world, trying to compress that into an entirely digital workflow, which is very much what has happened to music, for example, right? You can enable some lives today, we'll open that up.
但我认为经历过那些体验并尝试玩耍那些技术类型肯定有助于塑造对辛西娅周围思维的许多看法，本质上，我们也试图将过去完全是物理过程的东西带给辛西娅。你用相机拍摄一些真实世界的东西，试图将其压缩成完全数字化的工作流程，这在音乐领域也是非常普遍的，对吧？ 例如， 你今天可以通过开启一些直播来实现这一点。
And you can synthesize any instrument, any sound, you can sample things with real world. Doesn't mean people don't play guitar or piano anymore. But with just a MacBook, right, you can make moles any longer than you can imagine. Yeah, it's so funny. You mentioned video games as a quality and founders. I feel like another one I've noticed is is also music. Like I feel like a lot of founders I've met.
你可以合成任何乐器、任何声音，你可以通过现实世界采样东西。这并不意味着人们不再弹吉他或钢琴了。但是只需要一台MacBook，你可以创造任何你想象不到的音乐作品。是的，这很有趣。你提到了视频游戏作为一个品质和创始人。我觉得我注意到的另一个是音乐。就像我遇到的许多创始人一样。
And as you know, I was a founder as well. I was a musician, I was a drummer, I played a lot of video games. I feel like it's quite common. Why do you think there is this correlation between musicians and entrepreneur or creative people, I would say, and entrepreneurs? Because it seems very common. I don't think it's just a coincidence that you and I are both musicians and founders. It's a good question, but I actually think creativity is in many ways a great as an entrepreneur is obviously like a really important skill, right?
正如你知道的，我也是创始人。我是一名音乐家，是一名鼓手，我玩过很多视频游戏。我觉得这很普遍。你为什么认为音乐家和企业家或创意人士之间有这种相关性呢？因为这似乎非常常见。我不认为你和我都是音乐家和创始人只是巧合。这是一个好问题，但我认为创造力在很多方面对一个企业家来说是一个很好的技能，对吧？
And I think it's just, you have to kind of find new solutions to existing problems. And what I like about gaming is a music, to some extent, but if you start out with gaming, right, is that essentially what you're doing. And of course, this change, like if you're playing Candy Crush, maybe less so, but if you're playing World of Clothes and Tycoon or like these, that kind of strategy game, right, that really teaches your brain to think in a different way, I think, right? It's all about you make certain choices, they have certain consequences.
我认为，你必须在某种程度上找到现有问题的新解决方案。我喜欢游戏的地方在于它像音乐一样，但如果你从游戏开始，那基本上就是你在做的事情。当然，这种改变，如果你在玩《糖果传奇》，也许不那么明显，但如果你玩《世界着衣大亨》这种策略游戏，或者类似这样的游戏，它真的教会你的大脑以一种不同的方式思考，我觉得是这样的。它都是关于你做出某些选择，它们会有一定的后果。
And then you sort of train your internal neural network to be good at making good decisions. And I think ultimately, that's what you need to be good at as a CEO, especially when you get to the later stages, right? And it's just if you don't play computer games, right? When do you get to play out that many scenarios in that short amount of time, right? You just don't really. And that's the amazing thing about games, right? They actually simulate elements of the real world.
然后你可以通过训练自己的内部神经网络来擅长做出明智的决定。我认为，作为一名CEO，这其实就是你需要擅长的技能，尤其是当你到达后期阶段时，对吧？如果你不玩电脑游戏，你又在什么时候能够在短时间内模拟出那么多情景呢？实际上，游戏模拟了现实世界的某些元素，这正是游戏的惊人之处。
And they can do that like internet scale. If you don't have any computers as a kid, how are you going to do that, right? Like sports is also some, you could argue as a way of like simulating decision making, but like the iteration cycles and like playing football is just, I would argue like way less and much more domain-configured than if you're playing open in this strategy game, for example. So I think there's something like that decision-making process that you're taught.
他们可以像互联网规模那样做。如果你小时候没有电脑，你怎么做呢？像体育运动也可以被认为是一种模拟决策的方式，但是像玩足球这样的迭代周期和游戏方式，我认为比玩策略游戏要少得多，更多地是领域配置的。因此，我认为有一种决策过程是被教授的。
In terms of music, I don't know, I think part of it is, I think if you like music, you're probably like quite curious. You have a little bit of a nerdy side to you, right? You love to be super deep in something specific and geek out over like a specific like snack run or with big pattern or something like that. And you can just get lost in that. And I think that's also one of the good, that's also one of the qualities you need to have as a founder, right? And just liking new things. I think most people probably won't admit it, but don't really like new things. But I think if you're like a musician, you're like wired for liking new things. So I call it your job. I come up with new things all the time. Right. And spot trends and understand like what people care about and what people like in this given moment, right? Which is I think to your point similar to technology. Exactly.
在音乐方面，我不知道，我觉得其中的一部分是，我觉得如果你喜欢音乐，你可能是很好奇的。你可能有一点书呆子的一面，对吧？你喜欢深入研究某个特定的事物，并且对一些特定的事物如零食、大图案或其他东西着迷。你可能会沉浸其中。我觉得这也是作为创始人必须具备的特质之一，对吧？就是喜欢新事物。我觉得大多数人可能不会承认，但其实并不喜欢新事物。但我觉得如果你是一个音乐人，你天生就喜欢新事物。所以我把这看作是你的工作。你必须不断创新。研究趋势，了解人们在某个特定时刻关心和喜欢的事物，对吧？这和科技有些相似。确切地说。
And I also think that there's not that there's study on creativity like a while back. And I forgot like the details of it. But essentially, when you're a kid, right, you're extremely creative. I can ask like a two year old to come up with the story, come up with a great start with lots of details, right? Like when you're a kid, right, just wake up, you don't have to think about anything. You're free to be creative all the time. Like you're just running out on playground. You don't have to deal with like tax bills and whatever things you have to do as an adult. And then it's more of more of these things pile up our creativity eventually dwindle. And we lose our creativity, right? And I think that's like, if you can keep that creativity alive, I can think that's like a really important thing. And I think with some of these hobbies, there's of course many more just the ones we're talking about here.
我也认为，关于创造力的研究在之前并不多。我忘记了细节，但是基本上，当你还是个孩子的时候，你是非常有创造力的。我可以让一个两岁的孩子编故事，写一个开头并加上许多细节，对吧？就像当你还是个孩子时，醒来时，你不需要考虑任何事情。你可以随时自由发挥创造力。就像你在操场上奔跑，不需要处理税单和成年人需要做的事情。然后，更多这样的事情堆积起来，最终我们的创造力就会减退。我们失去了创造力，对吧？我认为，如果能保持创造力活跃，那是非常重要的事情。我认为有些爱好可以帮助保持创造力，当然还有更多其他的爱好，不仅仅是我们现在讨论的这些。
I think they also tools to like ensure your creativity remains high. And I think it's just such an important skill. Like when you have to do creative problem solving, which entrepreneurship to me really is all about. Totally. And you really got to test that out, you know, before Cynthia, like you said, like you were saying briefly, you got to work at the incubator and start projects. And one of the things I understand about you is you dabbled a bit in AR VR when you were doing the incubator stuff. I'd love to hear a little bit about that because I do think there are connections to to generate of AI and kind of what you're doing now. And obviously, it feels like AR and VR is maybe have maybe, maybe finally having a moment now with Apple's vision pro coming soon. So talk a little bit about that experience.
我认为它们也是工具，可以确保你的创造力保持高水平。我认为这是非常重要的技能。就像当你必须进行创造性问题解决时，对我来说创业确实是这样。完全正确。你真的必须测试一下，你知道，在辛西娅之前，就像你说的，你在孵化器工作并启动项目。我知道关于你的一件事是，在你进行孵化器项目时，你稍微涉足了一下增强现实和虚拟现实。我很想听听关于那个经历的一点，因为我确实认为与AI的生成和你现在所做的事情有联系。显然，随着苹果即将推出的Vision Pro，AR和VR可能终于有了属于它们的时刻。谈一谈那段经历吧。
Yeah. So this is actually after I kind of decided to leave this sort of incubator and I came back from Stanford at this amazing experience. Newer, I'm on a stock company and you're in the model to build like a camping tools like FinTech, which was the hot thing at the time. I just interested like frontier tech, right? And I want to combine that with my love for building products. So I decided to move from co-op making because I'm based as amazing as a city co-op making is it's not really the place to to build AI of VR, AR companies. And so I moved to London. And my big interest there was beyond AR. So I spent something like a year and just really getting to know like lots of different people. It's a consulting work with a professor and we work for some project for like the UK government, we're part of setting up something called Dimension Studio, which is this big capture stage for creating VR content.
是的。所以实际上这是在我决定离开这种孵化器之后，我从斯坦福回来的经历。现在，我加入了一家股份公司，打算建立一个类似FinTech的露营工具公司，那时很热门。我只是对前沿技术感兴趣，对吗？我想把这个与我热爱建产品结合起来。所以我决定离开合作伙伴关系，因为尽管合作伙伴关系是一个很棒的城市，但不是建立人工智能或虚拟现实、增强现实公司的地方。所以我搬到了伦敦。我在那里的最大兴趣是虚拟现实。所以我花了大约一年的时间，真正了解许多不同的人。我和一位教授一起做咨询工作，为英国政府做了一些项目，我们是成立所谓的Dimension Studio的一部分，这是一个用于创建虚拟现实内容的大型捕捉舞台。
So imagine you have like 100 cameras in an array, do something in it and you can kind of spit out like a 3D asset that's animated from just that. And this is right when Oculus came out, which was an amazing piece of technology. I got really into this and I still love VRs this day, but I think I just had the sense that the product just wasn't really there yet. I don't think the market was big enough. And I think it's like one of those mantras that is huge in these years today kind of develop back then, which is like this utility over novelty, right? Which is all about when you're doing something and building a product, does it provide like actual business utility, but it's providing novelty in the sense that this is like super cool.
想象一下，你有一个像100台摄像头排列在一起的设备，对它进行一些操作，然后你就能够生成一个3D的动态资产。当时正好是Oculus推出的时候，那是一项令人惊叹的科技。我非常着迷于这个领域，直到今天我依然热爱VR技术，但我觉得产品实际上还没有完全成熟。我认为市场规模还不够大。我想，就像当时这种大家都在倡导的理念一样，强调的是实用性胜于新奇。也就是说，在开发产品时，它是否提供实际的商业用途，而不仅仅是因为看起来很酷而被誉为新奇。
People love to talk about it. Imagine all the what ifs when this becomes like good enough. That can be like very, that can be very strong signal, but like a short period of time. That's what we've seen with all these hype cycles, right? And I think I felt like a lot of the interest that you saw from like corporates and most people was more around the fact that it was novel. It's cool. It was new. Imagine when you can do all these things in VR, but it's like you can't really do them yet. And if you go deep enough into the state of the VR at that time, I just pretty obvious to me at least that it's gonna take a long time before they were untethered, fix the latency. Like, there's so many problems to solve.
人们喜欢谈论它。想象一下当这变得足够好时，会发生什么。这可能是一个非常强烈的信号，但只是在短时间内。这就是我们在所有这些炒作周期中看到的情况，对吧？我觉得很多公司和大多数人感兴趣的原因更多是因为它是新奇的。很酷。很新。想象一下，当你可以在虚拟现实中做所有这些事情时，但实际上你还不能真正做到。如果你深入研究当时的虚拟现实状态，至少对我来说很明显，要解决很多问题，可能还需要很长时间，才能使其无线连接，解决延迟问题。
I don't think we've gotten far, far there today, but the thing that actually insta got me to Sundizia was that the realization that creating content in VR AR is extremely cumbersome, right? Because it is basically like making a video game. And there's lots of researchers around the world doing great work on how to make that concentration more efficient. And one of them was a guy called Matassniesner. He was an associate professor at Stanford at the time, and is my co-founder today. And he did a research paper called Face to Face, which got a lot of attention back then. He was on Jimmy Kimmel showcasing it live. And it was really a sort of paper.
我不认为我们今天在这方面取得了太大的进展，但实际上让我立即加入Sundizia的原因是意识到在VR AR中创作内容非常繁琐，对吧？因为这基本上就像制作视频游戏。全世界有很多研究人员在努力寻找使这种创作更高效的方法。其中有一个叫Matassniesner的人。当时他是斯坦福大学的副教授，今天是我的共同创始人。他写了一篇名为《面对面》的研究论文，当时引起了很大的关注。他在吉米·金默尔节目中进行了现场展示。这真的是一篇很有意义的论文。
Okay, so looking in the camera. And now I am. Hello, everybody. I'm the heavyweight champion of the world. Mr. Mike Python. My eyebrows work and everything. Oh, look at that. That's pretty cool. He was called the most handsome professor in the world by Jimmy Kimmel, which to this day, I think, tells one of his life highlights. That's awesome. But he'd done his paper and basically what they demonstrated there was like using deep learning techniques to actually generate video. And it was looking back at it today was like quite rude and it was supposed like super cherry picked. But when I saw that paper, I just felt like I saw Matthew for the first time, even if it was like in a very early state, I just felt like this is this if you extra played this, this is going to be a very important technology.
好的，所以看向摄像头。现在轮到我了。大家好。我是世界重量级拳王，迈克·派森先生。我的眉毛长得很好看。哦，看那个。太酷了。他被吉米·基梅尔称为世界上最帅的教授，我认为这是他人生中的一个亮点。太棒了。但他做了论文，基本上展示了使用深度学习技术来生成视频。现在回想起来，当时那样的做法有点无礼，似乎是过于挑选了某些部分。但当我看到那篇论文时，我觉得我第一次看见了马修，尽管当时还处于很早期的阶段，我觉得这个东西，如果再加以发展，将成为一个非常重要的技术。
And it's going to entirely change how we think of media production. And that was kind of the initial spark and that there are some former pieces around Tunisia and and found the company. And I would humbly say, right? Like, if you look at the world today, most of that features has come through much faster than we actually thought. We now went with when was that when was the paper? This is in 16. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So so it was like really predictive of kind of kind of what would happen.
这将彻底改变我们对媒体制作的看法。这是最初的火花，公司周围有一些与突尼斯有关的往事，我谦逊地说，对吧？如果你看看今天的世界，大多数功能已经比我们实际想象的要快得多。这是在什么时候？16年。哇哦。哦哇。所以它非常预言了将会发生什么。
What do you think? That's really interesting that AR and VR sort of gave birth to the idea for for your company. Do you think AR and VR ever can make that leap from novelty to utility? And do you feel like we're about to see that? I mean, it strikes me that Apple, the most valuable company in the world doesn't doesn't place bets that that don't end up paying off in a massive way, right? Even these air pods that I'm wearing, right? Generate tens of billions of dollars for the company.
你觉得呢？真的很有趣，AR和VR类似孕育了你公司的创意。你认为AR和VR能从新奇变为实用吗？你觉得我们就要看到这种转变了吗？我是说，苹果这个世界上最有价值的公司，不会投入不能带来巨大回报的赌注，对吧？就像我现在戴着的这些AirPods一样，为公司带来了数十亿美元的收入。
So I mean, are just by the fact that Apple is doing this, is that a signal that this is all about the change? I think so. I think the timeline is still difficult. I haven't tried the Apple vision yet. Yeah, maybe either. I think on a long enough timeline, obviously, computing is going to move from being on a 2D screen to being something that's 3D. I think the question and all these new technologies always like, what is the kind of quality threshold with this to really explode, right? In my world, it's very much about like the uncanny value, right? And a lot of the gen AI things we've seen now.
所以我的意思是，仅仅因为苹果正在做这件事，这是否意味着一切都将改变？我认为是的。我认为时间表仍然很困难。我还没有尝试过苹果的视觉。可能还没有。我认为从足够长的时间线来看，显然，计算将从2D屏幕上转变为3D。我认为所有这些新技术的问题都是，这种技术真正爆发的质量门槛是什么？在我的世界里，这取决于神秘的价值，对吗？现在我们看到的很多人工智能的东西。
Once you cross that threshold, it's just completely obvious. I mean, I think even your app plots, right? There's a time, I remember when they moved the headphone jack from the phone, and I was really pissed off because I love using a lot of expensive headphones. Like, I don't want to use this Bluetooth crap. Like it doesn't work and how to connect. And then all of a sudden, it's just like so good that now you don't even think about using Bluetooth. And so I don't think it's going to be this year that beyond AI takes off.
一旦你跨越了那个门槛，一切就显而易见了。我是说，你的App也是这样不是吗？有一次，我记得他们把手机上的耳机插孔去掉，我当时真的很生气，因为我喜欢使用很多昂贵的耳机。我不想用蓝牙这种垃圾。它不好用，连接起来很麻烦。然后突然间，它就变得很好用，现在你甚至都不会考虑使用蓝牙了。所以我认为今年不会是AI开始起飞的时候。
But I think, especially with all the cool things you're seeing with genitive AI and I'm using very large models to really just push through kind of like some of the previous performance constraints. That's been on all kinds of AI technology. It feels like we might obviously in acceleration and put the software and the hardware that is in in AR-VR.
但是我认为，特别是你看到的那些与基因AI相关的很酷的东西，我正在使用非常大型模型，真的只是为了突破一些先前的性能限制。这一直是所有种类的人工智能技术所面临的挑战。感觉我们很可能在增加速度，并将软件和硬件放在AR-VR中。
But at one point, it's going to cross the threshold. I always think I was like, if I could just put on pair sunglasses and my mom and dad could do the same back and dead mark, and it feels like reaction sitting around the dinner table, that is obviously going to be a way better experience than talking over kind of like a WhatsApp call. And I would 100% use that. I would too.
但到了某个时刻，它就会超越阈值。我总是想，如果我能戴上一副太阳镜，我的父母也能做同样的事情，那种反应就像我们坐在餐桌旁一样，显然会比通过WhatsApp电话进行交谈更好。我百分之百会使用那种方式。我也会。
And it seems like they're, at least from the demo videos, it seems like they're trying to create that kind of dynamic. I think it like if you see somebody in, what do they call it? Spatial computing. It's not a video of them. I think it's actually generating some sort of image of them. So yeah, it'll be really, really interesting to try that out.
从演示视频看来，他们似乎正在尝试创造一种动态效果。我觉得如果你看到某人在什么叫空间计算吗？它不是他们的视频，我觉得它实际上生成了某种形象。所以，尝试那个将会非常有趣。
And I actually think, I don't know if you've tried VRChat, which is this like with Oculus. Yeah, it's like this very simple application, right? Like, I'm sure it's involved since I tried it last time, which is a year ago, but you're basically sitting around the table and you're like talking to people. And as you move your head and your headset, of course, you're like virtual character does the same.
我实际上认为，我不知道你是否尝试过VRChat，这是一种需要使用Oculus设备的虚拟现实应用。是的，这是一个非常简单的应用程序，对吧？我确定自从我上次尝试以来已经有所改进，那是一年前，但基本上你就是坐在桌子旁和人们交谈。当你转动头部和头戴设备时，你的虚拟角色也会做出相同的动作。
I remember I had this like really profound moment actually, this is all the way back in 17, where you're sitting, I was sitting in this like VRChat and songs like some stranger that I don't know online. And I'm like, I lean backwards and I look around me and up because it's like fascinating with this VR, right? And I actually felt rude because I'm not looking at the person who's talking to me, right? And it's a small thing.
我记得我有过一个很深刻的时刻，实际上是在17年的时候，我坐在VRChat里，和一些我不认识的陌生人聊天。我往后靠了靠，环顾四周，抬头看了看，因为这个虚拟现实很迷人，对吧？我感到有点失礼，因为我没有看着和我说话的人，对吧？这只是一个小事情。
But I think, you know, those are the things that you don't really get in the same way on something like a Zoom call, for example, but you get that kind of almost like kinetic experience. And I think there's something there, right, which is super powerful. I think you can see the spark, like how powerful this is going to be if it actually works.
但是我认为，你知道，像Zoom视频通话这样的方式并不能完全传达这种体验，但你可以体验到那种几乎动态的体验。我认为这里面有些特别的东西，非常强大。我觉得你可以看到那种火花，这个实际上如果运作起来将会有多么强大。
One other way of thinking of it is like, when you sit in a meeting room with someone, you don't both of the time, at least you don't physically touch them, right? It's not because you need to kind of physically touch another person to fill your clothes with them. And if you can mimic the experience like 95%, then I think it will feel 95% like you're in the same room. And that is going to be incredibly powerful. I totally agree.
另一种思考的方式是，当你和某人坐在会议室里时，大部分时间你们并不会彼此接触，至少在身体上不会。这并不是因为你需要与另一个人身体接触来与他们产生联系。如果你能模仿这种体验达到95%，那么我觉得会感觉像你们在同一个房间里一样的95%。这将会非常强大。我完全同意。
Okay, so your journey through AR and VR ultimately leads you to this paper by your co-founder. And you start Cynthia, tell us what Cynthia is before we hear the story. Yeah, sure. So these are we almost seven years ago. And I would say that we're on a pretty simple, but really hard mission. We want to make it easy for everyone to make video content.
好的，所以你通过增强现实和虚拟现实的旅程最终将你带到了这篇你的联合创始人写的论文。在听故事之前，你开始介绍一下辛西娅是谁。是的，当然。这是我们大约七年前的事了。我想说我们的使命很简单，但非常艰巨。我们希望让每个人都能轻松地制作视频内容。
But we don't think of that as smaller cameras or better video editing applications, rebuilding technology to eventually replace the entire physical production process, right? Which means you can go from your imagination to a piece of video content without the need of studios, microphones, lights, cameras, and all the things you'd usually associate with having to make a video.
但是我们并不认为这是指更小的相机或更好的视频编辑应用程序，而是要重新构建技术，最终取代整个实际的制作过程，对吗？这意味着你可以从想象力直接创作出视频内容，而不需要工作室、麦克风、灯光、相机，以及通常你会认为与制作视频有关的所有东西。
And we're not yet at the point where you can make definitely like a Hollywood film. But where we are today is with world's largest AI video platform. And essentially we help our customers make video content. Instead of using cameras, you select one of these AI avatars that we have, you type out the script, and we have some basic video editing functionality that sits around it. It generate in just a few minutes to have something that looks almost like a real video of a person talking to the camera.
目前我们还没有达到能够制作出类似好莱坞电影那样的完全确定的水平。但如今我们是世界上最大的人工智能视频平台。基本上我们帮助客户制作视频内容。不用相机，而是选择我们拥有的人工智能角色之一，输入剧本，我们提供一些基本的视频编辑功能。只需几分钟，就能生成类似真实人物在镜头前讲话的视频。
Of course, this technology is going to get much better, much more complex. And you could do much more rich and interesting videos. They're not so distant future. But we found extremely strong product fit. And I think what's less obvious from the outside is the way people are using some easier is not that much in terms of replace video production, but to replace text.
当然，这项技术会变得更加先进和复杂。你可以制作更加丰富和有趣的视频。这并非遥不可及的未来。但我们发现这项产品非常符合市场。我认为从外表看不太明显的是，人们使用这项技术并不是为了取代视频制作，而是为了取代文字。
So if you're like one of the world's largest fast food companies, for example, and you have to train an onboard millions of people every single year, they used to do that with like a 40 page handbook. You have to sit down and read a pretty terrible for an employee in 2023 where everybody wants to watch and listen to content, not read. I bought all the terrible for the company who gets much less onboarded employees into their restaurants.
如果你是世界上最大的快餐公司之一，比如说，每年都要培训和招募数百万人，以前他们会用一本40页的手册来做这件事。但2023年的员工很难接受这种方式，每个人都更愿意观看和听取内容，而不是阅读。对于那些无法有效引入新员工到餐厅的公司来说，这种方式非常糟糕。
Now they can make a video instead, which is super powerful. Working with a video that's generated by AI is kind of like a work doctrine, right? You can open it up, you can edit it, be duplicated, be very translated, very different from working with heartbaked footage from a camera. And then the first multiplier on that is that we've made it so easy to use that the same people who used to write that 40 page handbook, they can now make the videos themselves. That's a massive unlock, right? Because you essentially bypassed inside video production department who could focus on doing all the really cool, big, exciting brand videos, and everyone else in the organization can create this kind of video themselves. So I'd say like today, what we are is probably more like an alternative to PowerPoint than an alternative to like real video production. But that's just working catastically well.
现在他们可以制作视频，这非常强大。使用由人工智能生成的视频有点像一种工作条例，对吧？你可以打开它，编辑它，复制它，翻译它，与从摄像机拍摄到的烘焙镜头完全不同。而且最大的优势是，我们让使用变得如此简单，以至于那些过去要写40页手册的人现在都可以自己制作视频。这是一个巨大的突破，对吧？因为你基本上绕过了需要专门从事所有真正酷、大、令人兴奋的品牌视频的视频制作部门，组织中的每个人都可以自己创造这种视频。所以我会说，今天我们可能更像是PowerPoint的替代品，而不是真正的视频制作的替代品。但这工作得很好。
And when you see the results from our customers, and how much you improve information retention with a video about the text, it's just magical. So walk me through like a specific use case and like exactly what I would do if I'm the creator of this content. So you mentioned training videos, maybe a training video or what's another piece of content, maybe I'm the person that created the content. What do I do? So when you start up, you have a choice if you want to make yourself as an AI avatar, or if you want to use one of our stock avatars, it depends quite a lot on use case. And then all the platform is really as simple as just selecting your avatar, typing on the script, putting the video editing around it.
当您看到我们客户的结果，以及您通过视频提高信息保留量的效果时，这真是一种魔法。所以，带我走进一个具体的应用案例，告诉我如果我是这个内容的创作者，我会做些什么。您提到培训视频，也许是一个培训视频，或者还有其他内容，也许我就是创作了这些内容的人。我该做什么呢？当您开始使用时，您可以选择是将自己制作成一个AI化身，还是使用我们的库存化身，这取决于具体的用例。然后整个平台真的就是这么简单，只需要选择您的化身，输入脚本，围绕它进行视频编辑。
In terms of the use cases, I would say what we are today, it's pretty much instructional video content. The avatar isn't really emotive or expressive enough to make something that makes you like happy or sad or you know, kind of gives just makes you feel something. And it's great for kind of like teaching you something. And that's very much what it's used for today. So it could be around like onboarding. It could also be, you know, one of world's biggest tech companies, we have lots of distributors around the world. They used to send them out like a monthly update with what's changing our products and policies, whatever. Nobody reads that PDF document.
就使用情况而言，我会说我们今天所使用的，基本上就是教学视频内容。这个虚拟角色并不表达出足够的情感或表现力，无法让你感到高兴或悲伤，或让你产生任何感觉。但它非常适合教导你一些东西。这就是它目前的主要用途。比如可以用在新员工入职培训，也可以用在世界上最大的科技公司之一，我们有很多分销商遍布全球。他们曾经会每月发送产品和政策变更的更新给他们，但没有人会去阅读那个PDF文档。
Now they can make a video instead, which is way more powerful. And they have to use the same amount of effort in creating it because again, it's the same people who wrote the PDF to make the videos right. Girls would be another big tech company that have 4,000 A's around the world, so massive sales force. We need to keep these folks updated on what's happening in the competitive landscape, new product launches, pricing changes. And again, used to do this with lots of text, right? But information retention of text like 11%. So if you scale that out to 4,000 people, then, you know, changing switching that text out with video, which generally has around 80% information retention, it's just actually massive, right?
现在他们可以制作视频，这样更有力量。而且他们必须付出同样的努力去创建视频，因为撰写PDF的人也是制作视频的人。另一个大型科技公司可能有全球4000名营销人员，所以销售团队规模庞大。我们需要让这些人了解竞争格局、新产品推出和价格变动的情况。以前我们通常用大量文本来做这些，对文本的信息保留率只有11%。所以如果将这种方式扩展到4000人，你知道，用视频来代替文本，一般视频的信息保留率是80%，这实际上是大的改变。
So they make these small like micro early videos with hey, this new feature just launched is how it works, our competitors just did this, whatever. So there's a lot about this sort of, you know, it's not like the big flash interesting videos that most people think about when they think of videos. It's much more around kind of like this instructive video and insider, especially the enterprise that we work with. So you had this, you and your co-founders had this vision to make it really easy for people to create video. But did you have, how did you get to these like this use case and this, this customer, you know, ultimately finding product market fit? Did you always have this vision in mind for the use cases or just walk us through the journey from starting to where you are now? Yeah. Well, I think to some extent, we did what you're supposed to not do, we kind of started with the technology, right? We saw this from the paper, the research paper, right? We're like, this thing's got to change the world. How do we sequence a company from where we are today until all the really cool things got to be possible, right? And so the initial version of the tech, which is always back in like 17, 18 was very different than what it is today.
因此，他们制作了这些微型早期视频，对于这种新功能刚推出的视频，我们竞争对手刚刚做了这个，等等。所以有很多关于这种类型的视频，你知道，它并不像大型引人注目的视频，当人们想到视频时，他们想到的大多数内容。它更多地是关于这种教学视频和内部视频，特别是企业我们的合作伙伴。那么你和你的联合创始人是否有这样的愿景，让人们轻松创建视频。但是你是如何达到这个使用案例和这个客户，最终找到产品市场匹配的呢？你一直对使用案例有这个愿景吗？或者带着我们从创立开始到现在的旅程。是的。我想在某种程度上，我们做了不应该做的事情，我们从技术出发，对吧？我们看到了来自研究论文的信息，对吧？我们想这个东西一定会改变世界。从今天开始的公司序列，直到实现所有真正酷的东西都有可能，对吧？因此，技术的初始版本，即始于17、18年的版本，与今天相比有很大不同。
The first use case we kind of started to tackle was was AI dubbing, which actually like making a compact now. AI dubbing, sorry, would you say AI dubbing?
我们开始着手解决的第一个用例是AI配音，实际上现在已经开始对其进行紧凑化处理。AI配音，抱歉，您说AI配音吗？
AI dubbing, like voice dubbing. Essentially, the idea is like you take a video in English, say, and then you dub it over with a German or French voice track, but then you also reanimate the face that it looks like as we call it in French or German. This is like the first product that we built and we went out and we you know, we sold this to like advertisement agencies, basically video production professionals that knew what they were doing and already producing lots of video.
AI配音，就像声音配音一样。基本上，这个想法就像你拿一段英文视频，然后用德语或法语配音，同时重新动画人物，使其看起来像我们在法语或德语中说的那样。这就像我们最早开发的产品，我们跑出去，你懂的，我们把它卖给了广告公司，基本上是那些懂行并且已经在生产大量视频的专业人士。
What we found back then was like, because I can not terrible business, like we were 12 people and I think we did like 8, 900 K in revenue in the year we were selling this. But what we figured out was this is a vitamin, not a painkiller. We are a very, very small part of a much, much larger process that we have no influence or what. So the go to market here is just very difficult, right? Because we can sell it into an agency within have to sell it into their client. And then the client has to agree and the whole campaign as a thing. It takes nine months before we even film something, then it takes six months for the post production. And it's just like not a great market at all.
当时我们发现的情况就好像是，因为我不可能做到糟糕的生意，就好像我们有12个人，我觉得我们在卖这个产品的那一年里大约有8,900K的收入。但我们发现的是这只是维他命，并不是止痛药。我们只是一个非常非常小的环节，我们对整个过程几乎没有影响力。所以在这里市场推广就非常困难，对吧？因为我们需要把产品卖给代理商，然后再由代理商推销给他们的客户。客户还要同意整个广告活动，整个过程需要九个月才能拍摄，然后还需要六个月的后期制作。总的来说，这并不是一个好的市场。
But what we learned also in this process was that, you know, me and Steph McKofan, I was just like, I think we talked like 2000 people in this band of like one half years just to build like a mince and a lot around video production from first principles. And what we figured in that process was there are billions of people in the world who are desperate to make video content, but they can't because they don't have the budget. They don't have the skills. They have no good web to start. And for these people, even if the quality would be lower than the real camera, if we can make it 1000 times more affordable and 1000 times easier, that's a huge win for them.
但是在这个过程中，我们也学到了，我和斯蒂芬·麦科凡就像是，我想我们跟这支乐队中的大约2000人交谈了一年半时间，只是为了从头开始建立一个围绕视频制作的要点。在这个过程中，我们发现世界上有数十亿人急于制作视频内容，但却由于没有预算、没有技能、没有好的网络开始。对于这些人来说，即使质量低于真实相机，如果我们可以使其便宜1000倍且容易1000倍，对他们来说这是一个巨大的成功。
And so that kind of was the insight that led us to say, okay, what is instead of working with these like super high quality videos that will get from like an agency? What if we could build this so simple AI spokesperson kind of thing where you just give us the script and then we'll give you a video back of the person reading that out to the camera. And so we built this like MVP actually where we built this like very thin, you know, platform where you could submit a script and to generate video.
所以这就是我们得出的见解，让我们想到，好吧，与其使用从像机构那里得到的超高质量视频，不如我们能否建立一个简单的AI代言人，你只需给我们剧本，然后我们会给你一个视频，展示人物对着摄像头朗读剧本。于是我们实际上建立了这样一个MVP，建立了一个非常简单的平台，您可以提交剧本生成视频。
What actually happened then was that we submitted that script. Everybody got an office panicked because now we have to go out and figure out a way to like actually make that video. And it was using AI, but it was like, it took like a PhD, you know, two days to make one video. But we validated that this was really interesting for people. And so that led us towards this idea of, you know, building a product, not for video production professionals, but for everyone else. And that kind of all came together in the summer of end of summer 2020 when we launched our first SAS product studio, which is also what we're known for today.
那时实际发生了的事情是我们提交了那个剧本。每个人都很慌乱，因为现在我们必须出去找出一种实际制作那段视频的方式。这个视频使用了人工智能，但制作一个视频需要一个博士，大约花了两天的时间。但我们验证了这对人们来说真的很有趣。因此，这使我们想到了建立一个产品的想法，不是为视频制作专业人士，而是为其他所有人。这些想法都在2020年夏末实现了，那时我们推出了我们的第一个SAS产品studio，这也是我们今天所知道的。
And honestly, since then it was, it was one of those things where like the day we launched it just went viral. And it's just been an explosive growth trajectory since then. I think, you know, looking bad at it now, probably one of those things where we all just like, holy f there's something here. If in this state of the product and the AI technology, people are willing to pay for it. Like there's something big here, and even though we've made a lot of progress, I think the feeling here is I think for everyone working in JNI, we're still so early. And this is going to be an entirely new industry. It's fascinating.
老实说，自那时以来，就是那种情况，就像我们推出的那天，它就开始火起来了。从那时起，它的增长速度就一直是爆炸性的。我想，现在回想起来，可能是那种我们都意识到，哇，这里有什么东西的情况。如果在产品和人工智能技术的现状下，人们愿意为此付费。就意味着这里有很大的发展空间，即使我们取得了很多进步，我认为在JNI工作的每个人都依然觉得我们还处于早期阶段。这将会是一个全新的产业，非常引人入胜。
I mean, it sounds like you went through effectively three years. I mean, you had a product, you were doing the dubbing, but it sounds like it wasn't totally working. So you kind of went through this three years of of being in the wilderness, as they say. And it feels like all of the great startup stories have this period where you're kind of searching and it might be for years. And then you tap into this vein and boom, just like that, everything changes. I mean, what were those three years like? Did you feel like you were making progress or did it feel like you're sort of running through mud? Like what was that like?
我的意思是，听起来你经历了相当长达三年的时间。我是说，你有一个产品，你在进行配音，但听起来好像并不完全顺利。所以你经历了这三年的时间，就像他们说的那样，处于一种无助的境地。感觉所有伟大的创业故事都有这样一个阶段，你不断搜寻，可能持续多年。然后突然间，你找到了这条线索，一切就瞬间改变了。我的意思是，那三年是什么样的？你觉得自己取得了进展，还是感觉自己在泥潭中挣扎？那时的感受如何？
That definitely felt like running through mud. I think anyone who's been through those, especially if it's six months, it's like man, for three years, a long time to keep a team motivated, to keep your motivation high. It was not fun. We had several near-death moments. We obviously had to raise capital to build the company. This is a family spending technology to develop, right? And it was just the first rounds were really, really difficult to raise. It was an absolute chit show, to be completely honest, don't you? And today we're not fun, but we learned a lot. And I think now looking back at it, I'm actually really happy that we had those three years because the amount of insights we got from first principles about video production was just so strong. I think we need a lot of those today. But yeah, I mean, it's rough, right? It's really rough when you just feel like you're making a little bit of progress, but not really towards building an actually kind of scalable and best thing in a company.
这绝对感觉像是在泥巴中奔跑。我认为任何一个经历过这种情况的人，特别是如果持续了六个月，那就像是，哎呀，三年时间里要保持团队的动力和自己的动力高昂，确实不容易。我们经历了好几次濒死的瞬间。显然，我们必须筹集资金来建立公司。这是一个用于发展的家族支出技术，对吧？最初几轮筹资真的很难筹集到。坦白说，那是一场绝对的混乱，你不觉得吗？今天我们不觉得好玩，但我们学到了很多。现在回头看，我觉得其实我很高兴我们经历了那三年，因为我们从头开始制作视频得到了大量见解。我认为我们今天需要很多这样的见解。但是，嗯，这很艰苦，对吧？当你感觉自己取得了一点进展，但实际上并没有朝着建立一个真正具有可扩展性和最佳的公司的目标迈进时，感觉真的很艰难。
How do you keep motivating the team? How do you run it through mud for three years? You want to hold onto your team? You want to make sure they don't leave to go do something else? How do you keep the team motivated? Well, I actually think that despite it being an uphill battle, we all fundamentally, truly believe that the moment that we're in right now, we're going to come. I think all the early signs were there, right? In 2017-18, I remember around the content sense that I had this slide of an image of a human face generating by AI, right? And it was like 64 by 64 pixels, some of that black and white, if you see today, you'd be like, oh, whatever. But back then, that was that blue people's minds, like absolute blue people's minds, including all right, because how insane is it that a computer automatic can just generate a picture that more or less like looks real?
你如何保持团队的动力？你如何在泥泞中坚持三年？你想要留住你的团队吗？你想要确保他们不离开去做其他事情吗？你如何保持团队的动力？嗯，我实际上认为尽管困难重重，我们都从根本上、真正地相信我们现在所处的时刻将会到来。我认为最初的迹象都已经出现了，对吧？在2017-18年，我记得在内容感知方面，我有一张幻灯片上展示了一张由人工智能生成的人脸图像，对吧？当时它是64x64像素的，有些是黑白的，如果你今天看到了，可能会觉得，哦，无所谓。但那时候，这个画面简直让人们大吃一惊，包括我在内，因为一台计算机能够自动生成一幅看起来几乎像真实的照片，这实在是太疯狂了。
And seeing the progress in our own technology and those other technologies, only speeding up, not slowing down, I think everyone team just truly had confidence like this is going to happen. And even if Cynthia as a company didn't work out, we were just too early. And I think that's really, that's really strong, right? So I think that played a huge part in it. And I think also, just having a strong thesis, I think we've always, we've always had a strong thesis internally of like how this space and how this market is going to evolve. And even if it went something snowed and we had anticipated and would want, we did see the signs that we were moving in that direction. And I think that that helped a lot in everyone's motivation.
看到我们自己的技术以及其他技术的进步，只加速不减缓，我觉得每个团队都真的有信心，认为这一切都会发生。即使辛西娅公司最终没有成功，我们只是时机过早而已。我觉得这真的是很强大的一点，对吧？所以我认为这在其中发挥了巨大作用。而且我认为，拥有一个强有力的理论，我们内部一直有一个强有力的理论，关于这个领域和市场将如何发展。即使它发生了我们预料之外的事情，我们也看到了我们在那个方向前进的迹象。我觉得这对每个人的动力都起到了很大的帮助。
Let's talk about the technology. You just touched on it a little bit here about, you know, the face. Everyone, most of the people in this world first learned about generative AI when chat GPT launched, or maybe when Dali launched, you know, about a year ago. And that was obviously like a huge moment for so many companies. Was that moment consequential for your company? Or, I mean, was your technology sort of progressing on its own independently of what else was happening? I mean, I think everyone who runs an AI company will say that that's definitely been consequential once been absolutely like crazy nine, 10 months since the chat GPT moment happened. For us, in terms of the technology, definitely. And I think, you know, a lot of the things we've seen working in the last 12 months is just big models work really well. And that magnitude of data really does make a difference, which is super exciting.
让我们谈谈技术。你刚刚稍微提到了一点关于面部识别。大多数人在这个世界上第一次了解生成式人工智能是在聊天GPT推出时，或者大约一年前达利推出时。这显然是许多公司的一个重要时刻。对你的公司来说，那个时刻有什么重要影响吗？或者，我是说，你的技术是否在独立于其他事情的发展？我想每个运营人工智能公司的人都会说那绝对是一个重要影响。自从聊天GPT之后的这9、10个月真的疯狂。对于我们来说，从技术方面来说，绝对是如此。我认为，我们在过去12个月看到的很多东西就是大型模型效果非常好。数据的规模确实会产生影响，这非常令人振奋。
For you as well, that's affected you as well, or more just like the large language models. You know, that's affected us as well. That's also something like Dali, for example, I had is also to some extent, a case of like, if you're throwing off data at these things, they will eventually figure out how to make something that looks real. Whereas if you go sort of before that whole moment in time, the most people were still trying to like build smaller models with high quality data, spend a lot of time and like fine-tuned the algorithms, figuring out like new ways of doing things, instead of just throwing massive amounts of data at it. And I think, you know, throwing massive amounts of data at this has to some extent really proven that that that was the step change that the industry kind of needed and was waiting for.
对你来说，这也会产生影响，就像大型语言模型一样。你知道的，这也会影响到我们。这有点像达利，比如，我也有一些例子，如果你向它们提供大量数据，它们最终会找到如何生成看起来真实的内容。而如果你回到在那个时间点之前，大多数人仍在努力构建小型模型并使用高质量数据，花费大量时间来微调算法，找到新的做事方式，而不仅仅是向它们投入海量数据。我认为，向这些模型投入大量数据在一定程度上真正地证明了这是行业急需的且一直在等待的一次重大转变。
Back when we started the company, everything was about predictive AI models, right? So it's like, CNN's, it's like machine learning, a lot of stuff people are talking about as being AI. Again, it's with the first real big technology that starts to be able to like generate especially visual content. The hard thing I think as a founder, right, is that when you're in a space like this that evolves so quickly, then you have these step changes to sort of, you know, come by once a year or something like that. And it's always difficult to be like, how much should you like chase that shiny new thing that looks really exciting, whereas you continue on your existing roadmap.
当我们创办公司时，一切都是关于预测性人工智能模型，对吧？就像CNN，就像机器学习，很多人都在谈论的AI。再次，这是第一个真正能够生成特别是视觉内容的大型技术。作为创始人，我认为困难的是，当你处于这样一个发展如此迅速的领域时，你会遇到这些一年一次的阶段性变化。要像追逐看起来非常令人兴奋的新东西，而继续按照现有的路线图前进，总是很困难。
And I got something everyone is like struggling with that runs a big AI company, right? It's the kind of exploitation versus exploration is always really hard. But I think, you know, if we look at where the world is today, look at some technology like tech to speech, for example, it's also one of those things where like someone figured out that if you just throw 100,000 hours of data at these models, instead of like, you know, 500 hours, they just become exponentially better than what you could have before. And I think anyone who is building AI technology, who's not thinking in line of those terms, I think it's going to be a long term.
我有一个每个经营大型人工智能公司的人都在苦苦努力的东西，不是吗？那就是开发和探索之间的平衡总是非常困难。但我认为，如果我们看看世界今天的发展，比如像语音技术这样的技术，也是其中之一。有人发现，如果你只是把十万个小时的数据输入这些模型，而不是像以前那样500个小时，它们就会比以前明显地变得更好。我认为，任何建立人工智能技术的人，如果不思考这些问题，那将会是一个长期的问题。
So what what has I would say this realization and really the last year done maybe both to the product and the actual capabilities of the product and also the growth like it sounds like 2020 is when you found that product market fit and things really took off. But what did that look like post 2020, you know, October or whatever it was or whenever chat GPT launched about eight months ago, what was the impact of that on the product and also the growth. So I think there's been a few things like, first of all, we've been growing really fast since we launched in 2020, much more under the radar though. But we were growing at a really fast clip.
因此，我想说的是，这一认识和去年确实对产品以及产品的实际能力产生了影响，同时也影响了产品的增长，听起来2020年是你找到产品市场契合点并真正起飞的一年。但是，2020年之后的情况又是如何呢，你知道，去年十月或者GPT聊天推出大约八个月前，这对产品和增长都有什么影响。我想有几点需要指出的是，首先，自从我们在2020年推出以来，我们的增长速度非常快，尽管相对低调，但我们的增长速度确实很快。
When the moment with chat GPT sort of happened, there's a lot of things that are exciting. You know, the obvious one is just top funnel just exploded like for every other AI company. Why is that? Why are all the AI companies just getting crazy top of the funnel growth? I've seen that as well. Why is that? I honestly think it's just, you know, chat GPT had such a big wow factor kind of pushed through. It's a bit like what we talked about earlier with BIA, right? That was the moment for like chatbots. Like here's the thing, I'm going to ask you a question and I'll respond back to you in an almost like magical fashion, right? So that happened. And I think everything else about AI in the slipstream of that, through like image generation, video generation, all these technologies has kind of been developed also before that. Everyone does this cultural moment, right? Where everyone is now thinking about AI from like the sea level all the way down to like, you know, primary school, people, right? Everyone is like obsessed with this AI.
当聊天GPT的时刻发生时，有很多令人兴奋的事情。你知道，最明显的就是顶部漏斗像其他人工智能公司一样爆炸了。为什么会这样呢？为什么所有的人工智能公司都在取得疯狂的顶部漏斗增长？我也看到了。为什么？我真的觉得只是，你知道，聊天GPT有着如此大的惊叹因素，努力突破。这有点像我们之前谈论的BIA，对吧？那是像聊天机器人的时刻。就像这样，我会问你一个问题，然后以一种几乎像魔术一样的方式回答你，对吧？所以那件事发生了。我认为在那之后，AI的其他方面，通过像图像生成、视频生成这样的技术也都在发展之前发展了。每个人都会有这种文化时刻，对吧？从C级别一直到小学生，每个人现在都在思考AI，对吧？每个人都对这个人工智能着迷。
I think it just creates all this momentum. Then you have all these AI infernibles making lists of like, you know, these fire tools you need to try. Like this is the whole thing. It's all over TikTok. And that gave a lot of tough fun to like every company out there, which is really awesome.
我认为这只是创造了所有这种动力。然后你有所有这些AI工具制作列表，比如，你知道，你需要尝试的这些火热工具。就像这是整个事情。它遍布在TikTok上。这给了每家公司很多有趣的挑战，这真的很棒。
Another thing I'd say that happened for us is that SD technology is really mature. For us, we're very conscious about like what technology do we want to be the best in the world at and develop in-house? And what other technologies are false multipliers on the product that we're building, right? To take something like LLM's, for example, for text generation, amazing technology, like we're never going to be going into building foundational text models that would make apps with no sense for us.
另一个我们遇到的事情是SD技术已经非常成熟。我们非常清楚想要成为世界上最擅长的技术并自行开发？我们建造的产品上，还有哪些技术只是虚假的乘数？比如说像LLM这样的技术，用于文本生成，非常棒的技术，但我们不会去建立基础文本模型，因为对我们来说没有意义。
But what a gift it is to now have an API, right? Where you can help you can help our customers write the script for the videos, for example, which actually quite hard, right? So now we have a feature like many other creative tools where you can just say, hey, make me a video about fly-fishing in Oregon or whatever thing. We'll write that video for you. Amazing.
但是现在有了API真是一份礼物，对吧？你可以帮助我们的客户编写视频脚本，比如制作视频确实很困难，对不对？所以现在我们有了一个类似许多其他创意工具的功能，你只需要说一声，“嘿，给我制作一个关于在俄勒冈州钓鱼的视频”，我们就会为你写好视频。太棒了。
And with image generation, you have some sort of like the same, right? Great. You can now generate backgrounds for your avatars. You can even use it to maybe generate new outfits for your avatars. Like there's all these false multipliers. And I think it just, you know, seeing all those technologies progress so quickly. And, Shane, our mindset around how to build an AI first product. So that'd be the second thing.
随着图像生成功能的加入，你可以做出类似的东西，对吧？太棒了。现在你可以为你的头像生成背景了。甚至可以用它来生成新的服装款式。就像有这些虚拟乘数一样。我觉得这些技术的进步速度如此之快，我们对于如何打造首款AI产品的思维也会改变。所以这就是第二点。
And then I think just the third thing from a GTN perspective, I think is quite important is this is now board-level topic, right? In every 4,000 to 2,000 company, what is our general AI strategy? And that has elevated a lot of the conversations that we have and that I'm sure other of our peers are having, because this is no longer this sort of little weird fridge thing, a fringe thing. Now everyone is thinking about how's JAI on impact.company. And that could be anything from like LLMs to making your internal communications more efficient.
然后，从全球电信网络（GTN）的角度来看，我认为第三个重要的事情是，现在这已经是一个董事会级别的话题，对吧？在每一个4,000到2,000人的公司里，我们的AI战略是什么？这提高了我们进行的对话，也肯定会提升其他同行的对话，因为这不再是一个边缘的、怪异的事情了。现在每个人都在思考JAI对impact.company有什么影响。这可能包括从LLM到使内部沟通更有效率的各种事情。
But that's definitely like a great, a great tailbone, right? Now that we're sort of a bit on the other side of the hype cycle, I think, you know, the top funnel has gone down, think for everyone, which is quite natural. I'll cut the tourists are slowly kind of like disappearing. The tourist, yeah. You had a great tweet on this, by the way, just to quote it really quick.
但那绝对就像是一个很棒的、非常好的尾骨，对吧？现在我们已经有点走出狂热周期的一端，我想，你知道，顶端的漏斗已经下降了，对每个人来说都是很自然的。我觉得游客们开始慢慢消失了。游客，是的。顺便说一句，你对此发了一条很棒的推文，很快就引用一下。
You said product market fit and longevity test for generative AI companies. Do your customers overwhelmingly present what they make as AI generated? If the answer is overwhelmingly, yes, you are likely monetizing novelty, not utility. I think what you're saying, but I would love for you to clarify it is, are these people joining because it's generative AI or because it's providing value? It feels like the former are starting to get flushed out of the system.
你说产物市场契合和寿命测试适用于生成式人工智能公司。你的顾客是否主要将他们生产的产品标榜为人工智能生成的？如果答案大多是肯定的，那么你可能正在将新奇性变现，而非实用性。我明白你的意思，但我希望你能澄清一下，这些人是因为这是生成式人工智能而加入，还是因为它提供了价值？感觉前者开始被系统淘汰了。
Is that right? Yeah, 100%. And I think it's also one of the things that I think is important that you as a company whether you're building an AI is like, you'll have all these hype cycles. We've also had many hype cycles before the chat TBC moment, right? And I think it's just this, even though you're doing cool things with AI and everyone excited about AI, and everybody wants to talk about AI, it's very important to remember that the core principles of building a great product and a great company as a result of that is that you provide actual real utility for people, right?
是这样吗？是的，百分之百。我认为这也是一件重要的事情，无论你是在建立一个人工智能公司，你会遇到许多炒作周期。在聊天机器人浪潮之前，我们也经历过很多炒作周期，对吧？我认为这仅仅是这样，即使你正在用人工智能做一些很酷的事情，每个人都对人工智能感到兴奋，每个人都想谈论人工智能，但非常重要的是要记住，建立一个伟大产品和伟大公司的核心原则是为人们提供实际的真正的实用性。
You could do a pass prep, of course, with something that's like exciting for just a few months, but you want to build a truly lasting company that has happy customers and changes how they work. It has to be about utility, not just look at this cool new thing I made. And my point of that treat was just when we were in that hype cycle, right? Everyone was like, now you can make videos with AI, now you can do all these things with AI, but everyone always presented this AI, right? Like Coca-Cola, I think that was like, for me, like, Tamil, the bubble, or Gholdida, an ad where they were like, it was like an AI-generated ad, right?
当然，你可以做一个让人兴奋的过渡准备，持续几个月，但是你想要建立一个真正持久的公司，拥有快乐的客户并改变他们的工作方式。这必须是关于实用性的，而不仅仅是展示这个我制造的很酷的新东西。而我的观点是当我们处于炒作周期时，对吧？每个人都说，现在你可以用AI制作视频，现在你可以用AI做所有这些事情，但每个人总是介绍这种人工智能，对吧？就像可口可乐，我觉得那对我来说就像泡沫，或者是一个广告，他们说，这是一个由人工智能生成的广告，对吧？
It was an image generation, all this stuff. And it's a great ad, right? And they said it, they're like, this is AI-generated. It's the whole part of that is AI-generated, right? Everybody knows something about AI, here it was like, knows that it was like 5% AI-generated and 95% visual effects generated, right? But it served well, right? It had that novelty factor to it, and it probably, you know, for their business objective did really well. But if there's a company that's been like betting the business on great Gholdida make AI video now, then you'd be disappointed, right?
这是一个图像生成的过程，所有这些都是。而且这是一个很棒的广告，对吧？他们说了，他们说这是由人工智能生成的。整个过程都是人工智能生成的，对吧？大家都知道一些关于人工智能的事情，这里像是知道它是由5%的人工智能生成和95%的视觉效果生成的，对吧？但是它表现不错，对吧？它具有新奇因素，可能达到了他们的商业目标。但是如果有一家公司一直在依赖Gholdida制作人工智能视频，那么你可能会感到失望，对吧？
Because once they've, you know, done your initial contract of like making that one, like really cool video, then next time they have to shoot an ad and there's something else that's cool, they're not going to need your tool anymore, right? So we just always have this mindset of being, you know, maniacally focused on finding use case that have real utility and being very honest with ourselves and on how good is the technology actually today, right? And I think that is the key question. And because there are lots of people who are excited about using AI for all different kinds of things. And a lot of those things will probably happen in the future. But if you're trying to build a product today, it's really important, like, what is the technology actually good enough for, right? And that's why, you know, when I, you know, what gets me most excited is like, I've seen a mixing company in France with 10,000 employees that you've never heard of before, where we have 30 people using Cynthia, not because they care about AI as they get to cool, but because it makes their day to day job 10 times easier, right? That's the thing you want to find and focus on and build your partner around.
因为一旦他们做了你 最初的合同，例如制作那个很酷的视频，下次他们拍广告时需要其他酷的东西，他们就不再需要你的工具了，对吧？所以我们始终保持这种专注于寻找真正有用途的用例，并对技术今天实际上有多好非常诚实的心态，对吧？我认为这是关键问题。因为有很多人对使用人工智能进行各种不同的事情感到兴奋。其中很多事情可能在未来发生。但是如果你试图建立一个产品，真正重要的是，这项技术实际上能够提供什么样的帮助，对吧？这就是为什么，当我看到一个你从未听说过的拥有1万名员工的法国混合公司，在那里我们有30人正在使用辛西娅时，我感到最兴奋，不是因为他们在乎人工智能有多酷，而是因为这让他们的日常工作变得轻松了十倍，对吧？这就是你想要找到、关注并围绕建立合作伙伴关系的东西。
You can also, of course, you know, spice it up with doing cool things that are, that gets a lot of attention and gets a lot of us. But I think there are many great companies who've kind of fallen into those kind of potholes. And all of a sudden, like, oh, like, we're doing a web free company, we're launching a token, right? Because that's like the cool thing to do or the AI. There's so many of these different cycles. And I think all of them presents both an opportunity, but also a huge risk to founders, especially if you're doing deep tech where I think, you know, you're naturally more, you'll be pulled in in those directions by lots of people who might be launched in the novelty rather than the utility side of what you're doing. Totally.
当然，你也可以通过做一些引人注目的酷事来提升活动的吸引力。但我认为许多优秀公司都曾陷入这些险境。突然间，可能会说“我们要成为一个以网络为基础的公司，我们要推出一个代币”，因为这似乎是一个酷炫的事情，或者是人工智能。有这么多不同的热潮。我认为这些热潮提供了机遇，但同时也给创始人带来了巨大风险，特别是在深科技领域。在这种情况下，你可能更容易被很多人拉向追求新奇而非实用性质的方向。- 当然。
I totally agree with everything you just said. It feels like this technology is progressing so quickly. And it sounds like it even has for you just in the past year. If we play this out, like, what does this end up doing to traditional means of video creation? I know you said you're not trying to make Hollywood films, but maybe other companies are. I mean, what happens to cameras? What happens to timeline based video editing? In in Cynthia, you don't even need a timeline, right? You just type a script, you tap a button, it's done. So what does give us a give us a peek into the future five, 10 years from now?
我完全同意你刚才说的一切。感觉这项技术发展得如此迅速。听起来在过去的一年里，对你来说似乎也在发展。如果我们继续这样下去，这最终会对传统的视频制作手段产生什么影响呢？我知道你说你并不想制作好莱坞电影，但也许其他公司想。相机会发生什么？基于时间轴的视频编辑会发生什么？而在辛西娅里，你甚至不需要一个时间轴，对吧？你只需要输入一个脚本，点击一个按钮，就完成了。那么，让我们来看看未来的五年，十年会变成什么样子吧。
So I think to a lot of people, you know, this sounds kind of crazy. I think maybe less so today than that definitely like six years ago, I believe a couple of years ago. Like, how's it even gonna work? Who would want to watch AI generated videos and all those things, right? The best way I think to think about it is just looking at the history of media technology and technology in general, right? Because I think history repeats itself all the time. And even if it feels new, now that we're in the kind of the middle of the cycle, I think we're going to just see the same thing happening again, right? When there's a time, you know, when to make music, you have to have real instruments, you have to have a huge recording studio, and there's very few people in the world who would afford to do that and knew how to do that. Then something like a drum machine was invented. And a drum machine was actually originally invented to replace drummers, right? That was like, that was the intent of the drum machine. But it turned out the drum machine, like, it's just very far away from being something that you can replace a drum kit with. But what it did open up was you can buy this little machine, you don't need a drum kit anymore, you can use it with headphones, and all of a sudden we get like house and techno-electronic music, right?
所以我想对很多人来说，这听起来有点疯狂。我觉得今天这种想法可能比六年前更少一些，我相信几年前是这样的。比如，这样的技术怎么可能起作用？谁会想要观看由人工智能生成的视频等等，对吧？我认为最好的方式就是看看媒体技术和科技发展的历史，是吧？因为我觉得历史总是会重演的。即使现在感觉很新颖，现在我们可能正处在这个周期的中间，我觉得我们可能会再次看到同样的事情发生，对吧？以前制作音乐的时候，你必须有真正的乐器，必须有一个大型录音室，全世界很少有人有这样的设备和知识。然后就有了类似鼓机的发明。鼓机最初是为了取代鼓手而发明的。但事实证明，鼓机远远不能取代鼓组。但它所开发的是，你可以购买这个小机器，不再需要鼓组，你可以用耳机使用，突然之间我们有了house和techno电子音乐，对吧？
Along with synthesizers and all these other things. And what Snowdy has happened is that what used to be an entirely kind of analog workflow with real instruments now is completely compressed in a MacBook, right? But you can, as we spoke about earlier, you can use software instruments, you can use samples, you can play an entire orchestra on your keyboard if you want to, right? You're not really restricted by having to go out in the physical world. But of course, people still play piano, people still play guitars, and they have some soul you can't get out of a machine, we like it as human to do those things. I think the same thing is going to happen to video production. I think we're going to have a very real alternative to recording in the real world, and I think a lot of people are going to use that. But I also think we'll have a normal video that's recorded with a camera. I think people will like it that, and it'll probably just end up being a different genre than the country you can create with AI.
随着合成器和其他一切的出现，Snowdy 发生的是原先完全由真实乐器构成的模拟工作流程现在完全压缩在 MacBook 中，对吧？但是正如我们之前所说的，你可以使用软件乐器，可以使用采样，如果你愿意，你可以在键盘上演奏整个交响乐队，对吧？你并不受到必须走出物理世界的限制。当然，人们仍然弹钢琴，人们仍然弹吉他，它们有一种机器无法复制的灵魂，我们作为人类喜欢做这些事情。我认为视频制作也会发生同样的事情。我认为我们将会有一种非常真实的替代方法来录制真实世界的视频，我认为很多人会使用这种方法。但是我也认为我们会有用相机录制的常规视频。我认为人们会喜欢它，并且最终它可能会演变成与 AI 创造的风格不同的音乐风格。
And I think the shift is, I often think of it as the shift from typewriting to computer, right? I think it's ahead of a lot of those same elements. If you look at it from an office and workplace perspective, rather than a creative perspective, the act of writing, for example, that used to be someone's job. You had dedicated secretaries whose job it was to write things down and write letters for the CEO or whoever in a company. And you had typewriters, and there was like a whole industry around that. Then once people to computers came, everyone could write. Now everybody now is just a part of everyone's job to write. And we don't even think twice about that. We write SMS. We write, you know, WhatsApp messages, we write emails. We've even elevated ourselves. Like most people now also kind of designers. Like most people can use PowerPoint if you have a white call a job. It may not be an expert. Canvas. Exactly.
我认为这种转变，我经常把它看作是从打字机到电脑的转变，对吧？我认为它超越了许多相同的元素。如果你从办公室和工作场所的角度来看，而不是创意的角度，比如写作这个行为，以前是有人的工作。你曾经有专门的秘书，他们的工作是记录和为公司的CEO或其他人写信。你们有了打字机，周围还有一个完整的行业。然后一旦人们开始使用电脑，每个人都能写字了。现在每个人都认为写字是每个人的工作一部分。我们甚至不再对此感到惊讶。我们写短信。我们写WhatsApp信息，我们写电子邮件。我们甚至提升了自己。现在大多数人也算是一种设计师。大多数人可以使用PowerPoint，如果你有一个白领工作的话。可能不是专家。正是这样。
Canvas is a great example of that. I think the same thing's kind of happened to video and audio. I think as humans, we want communications that are as close to a real conversation as we can. The reason there's so much text in the world, not because we prefer a text, is because it's the only really scalable way of communicating we've had, right? And once it's going to be as scalable to create podcasts, audio and video, I think we're just going to move to what's a world in which visual and audio content, and maybe someday VR will just be the default way to consume content, right?
Canvas是一个很好的例子。我认为视频和音频也发生了同样的情况。作为人类，我们希望沟通尽可能接近真实对话。世界上有这么多的文本，不是因为我们更喜欢文本，而是因为这是目前我们拥有的唯一真正可扩展的沟通方式，对吧？一旦创建播客、音频和视频变得像文本一样可扩展，我认为我们将逐渐转向以视觉和音频内容为主，也许将来甚至会成为消费内容的默认方式，对吧？
Yeah, I wonder, you made some really good analogies. I wonder if, you know, vinyl is another analogy where, you know, 90% of the world, 95% of the world listens on Spotify, right? But some people like to listen on vinyl or, you know, filmmaking. So much so many of the films we all see today are shot digitally. But every once in a while, Christopher Nolan makes a film like Oppenheimer on classic, you know, like analog film, right? Maybe it's like that, right? Where the efficiency gains really are people will use AI to generate content in the ways that are most efficient and valuable. But there will be the purists, right? They want to do something like something old school. For sure. And I also think that the best content will consume, will be made by experts, right? And the creatives that we have today, like those who pick up all these new tools. And you could argue that AI at some point will become, you know, a split up of stars as a human being. And I definitely won't argue against it. But at least like here in the near term, we always to some extent have democratized video creation, right? Like we have cameras everywhere, and you can record yourself without needing much more than just a smartphone. But yet, right? It is the greatest storytellers, the greatest musicians who will win out and make the most interesting content. And I think the same will be true in the AI world.
是的，我在想，你的比喻做得非常好。我在想，你知道，黑胶唱片是另一个比喻，你知道，全世界90%、95%都在Spotify上听音乐，对吧？但有些人喜欢听黑胶唱片，或者说，电影制作。我们今天看到的许多电影都是用数码拍摄的。但是偶尔，克里斯托弗·诺兰会用经典的模拟胶片制作一部电影，对吧？也许就是这样，对吧？效率收益非常大，人们会使用人工智能以最高效和有价值的方式生成内容。但会有纯粹主义者，对吧？他们想做一些老派的事情。当然。我也认为最好的内容会由专家制作，对吧？我们今天拥有的那些创意人士，他们掌握了所有这些新工具。您可以说，AI最终将成为一个像人类一样闪耀的存在。我绝对不会反对这一点。但至少在短期内，我们总是在某种程度上实现了视频创作的民主化，对吧？我们到处都有摄像头，你只需要一个智能手机就可以录制自己。但是，对吧？最伟大的讲故事者、最伟大的音乐家将脱颖而出，制作出最有趣的内容。我认为在人工智能世界中也会是如此。
Like you can regurgitate AI music and AI images a million different times. And it'll just end up in kind of like the junk folder of the internet, which is already about like 99% of YouTube videos are right. And the few ones that are really good will arise to the top. So I think the human ingenuity, the human storytelling element, it's still going to be incredible. It's going to incredibly advantages, right? And the best artists, the best storytellers are generally also those who go against the stream, right? And at least right now with these models, what you are finding is that they're great at kind of spitting out reactively what's happening in the world and what kind of art people like and different kind of styles and with music is going to be the same, right? Like make me a hip hop track into styles like someone else. But great new art usually comes from people combining two things that should have been combined, right? And create something that's like fundamental new and interesting to the world.
就像你可以反刍AI音乐和AI图像一百万次一样。它最终会变成像互联网的垃圾文件夹一样，因为大约99%的YouTube视频就是这样。而真正优秀的作品将会脱颖而出。所以我认为人类的创造力，人类的讲故事的元素，依然会是令人难以置信的。这将会给我们带来无尽的优势，对吧？最好的艺术家，最好的讲故事的人通常也是那些与潮流背道而驰的人，对吧？至少目前来看，通过这些模型，你会发现它们非常擅长从反应式中产生反映世界和人们喜欢的艺术风格，并且音乐也是如此。就像把一首嘻哈曲风换成其他歌手的风格一样。但是伟大的新艺术作品通常来自于将两者结合起来的人，创建出一些本质上新颖且令人感兴趣的作品。
And I mean, I can't of course say that like AI will never be able to do that. But I still think that that requires more than just understanding that requires a very deep cultural and human understanding that at least so far, I don't think AI is anywhere in the area being able to comprehend and react to. How close are we to being able to make our own avatars and our own voice models instantly, right? Like right now I know in the product, I can make my own avatar. I think you also let me make my own voice model. But I think it requires a different process and more manual process. How far are we away from me just saying, you know, not training, not even needing maybe to train my own model, just typing a sentence, wanting to do it in my image and likeness. And it just happening. I mean, honestly, I think we're like more or less almost there.
我是说，我当然不能说人工智能永远不可能做到那样的事情。但我仍然认为，那需要的不仅仅是理解，还需要非常深入的文化和人类理解，至少到目前为止，我认为人工智能还无法完全理解和反应。我们离能够立即制作自己的化身和自己的语音模型有多近呢？就像现在我知道，在产品中，我可以制作自己的化身。我想你也让我制作了自己的语音模型。但我觉得这需要一个不同的过程和更多的手动过程。我们离我只需要说出一句话，不需要训练，甚至可能不需要训练自己的模型，只需打字，想要做成与我形象和特点相符的事情有多远呢？说实话，我认为我们几乎已经接近了这个目标。
Really? Both us and like other companies, you have like what's considered sharp voice cloning now, which is usually from like just a few sentences of your voice. You can generate like a pretty good approximation of what you sound like. They'll get better with more data. And you also have some other companies doing like with just a single image then creating an avatar of you. Start our technology. I think the quality there is still pretty far from what you can do with video. But for you to have an avatar of yourself kind like you're sitting and talking right now, I mean, I think if we put the bars like 10 minutes time investment from you, I can six to nine months until these at least you'll definitely be able to do that very rapidly. And it'll be very, very, very difficult to tell. That is not a real video.
真的吗？与其他公司一样，现在你们也拥有所谓的尖端声音克隆技术，通常只需要几句你的声音就可以生成出一个相当不错的你的声音模拟。随着数据量的增加，会变得更加精准。你们也和其他公司一样，可以只用一张图片就创建一个你的头像。开始我们的技术。我认为那里的质量仍然远远不如你用视频所能做到的。但是为了让你有一个像你正在坐在那里讲话的头像，我觉得如果我们设定标准，就是只需要你投入10分钟的时间，我估计至少要六到九个月的时间你就一定能够迅速实现这个目标。而且很难看出不是真实视频。
We're getting ready to release the next version of our avatars, which is going to take them from this bit slightly kind of robotic, very like corporate presenter style with a lot of emotions. So giving them emotion and teaching them how to perform a script depending on the context. Right. So if you put in the script of a talking novel, for example, you probably want that to be read out, like an audio book, a little bit slow with like lots of intonation. Right. If you put in the script of someone selling you like a used car, want us to be more upbeat or the body language to match that.
我们正准备发布下一个版本的虚拟人物，这将使它们从有点机械、很像企业演讲者风格，带有很多情感的状态转变。因此，我们会赋予它们情感，教给它们如何根据语境来表演脚本。对，比如如果你输入一个对话小说的脚本，你可能希望它被朗读出来，像一本有声书那样，速度有点慢，语调丰富。如果你输入一个销售二手汽车的脚本，我们希望它更加活跃，或者身体语言与之匹配。
And I think it's like as we go through these kind of iterations, we're just not far from the able to generate video and audio that is more or less than to take a book from the real thing. The implications of that are fascinating. I know you've talked about how Cynthia, the promise of it is really being able to turn text to video really, really easily. I mean, once we have the technology you're talking about now, it almost feels like anyone could do that for any content anytime they want. Again, using the Tolkien book as an example, maybe I go to read this book and I decide, I want Tolkien to just read it to me directly and I can just spin that up on my own.
我认为随着我们经历这些迭代，我们离能够生成更接近真实书籍的视频和音频并不远。这其中的影响非常迷人。我知道你曾谈到了辛西娅，这个承诺就是能够非常轻松地将文本转化为视频。一旦我们拥有你现在谈到的技术，几乎感觉任何人都可以随时随地为任何内容做到这一点。再次以托尔金的书为例，也许我读这本书时决定让托尔金直接朗读给我听，我可以轻松实现这个想法。
The implications are so far ranging for that, both for good and obviously also for potential abuse. You and the company in general have been really thoughtful about this, about the potential for abuse and AI safety overall. How do you think about that? Yeah. To a degree, I think there are so many exciting opportunities, but there's definitely some scary dimensions of these technologies. When we found the company back almost six years ago and people were talking about deep fates, that's the only thing people could talk about when they talk about this technology. We built a company on ethical framework, which around what we call the free Cs, consent control collaboration, which is pretty simple. Really, it's just about we don't create avatars or voices of anyone without their explicit consent. As we go through this KYC style process, we can make yourself an avatar and controls all about we take a very strong stance on what kind of content you can create with Cynthia.
这对于公司来说意义重大，无论是积极的还是显然潜在的滥用。你和公司一般都对此非常深思熟虑，关注潜在的滥用和AI安全的整体情况。你是如何考虑这个问题的？是的。在某种程度上，我认为有很多令人兴奋的机会，但这些技术肯定也存在一些可怕的方面。当我们大约六年前创建公司时，人们谈论深度伪装，这是人们谈论这项技术时唯一能谈论的事情。我们建立了一个基于道德框架的公司，围绕我们称之为三C原则，即同意、控制、合作，这非常简单。实际上，这只是关于我们不会未经明确同意就创建任何人的化身或声音。在我们进行这种类似KYC审核的过程中，您可以制作一个化身，并控制所有关于“辛西娅”可以创建什么样的内容的问题我们持坚定立场。
Around 10 years ago, works on AI safety and moderation. It's one of those problems that seems simple on the surface, but I really, really context want to dig into it. You have the content you clearly don't want, how do you clearly want? The really difficult part is all the content in the middle. If you're creating crypto content, you're trying to scam someone or their life savings or trying to explain how blockchain works, those types of things. It's still hard to do that automatically. We also employ a lot of human strategy to look for those scripts. I think for us, we take it very seriously that we play in a very important role in how these technologies are integrated into society. I think every company should. If you look at most of the big companies, at least, most people are taking that seriously.
大约10年前，我在AI安全和内容管理方面的工作开始。这是一个看起来表面简单，但实际需要深入探讨的问题。当你明显不想要某些内容时，你如何清楚地表达呢？真正困难的部分在于中间的那些内容。如果你制作加密货币内容，试图诈骗他人的生活储蓄或者解释区块链如何工作，这些都是很难自动完成的事情。我们还雇用了许多人类策略来寻找这些脚本。我认为，对于我们来说，我们非常认真地扮演着这些技术如何融入社会的重要角色。我认为每家公司都应该这样做。如果你看看大多数的大公司，至少大多数人都认真对待这个问题。
Open AI does a lot of work on making sure their models don't spit out bias, disinformation, misinformation. I think it really happens to be the industry kind of rally around this. For me and for us, I think of it as two problems. There's one which is how do we make sure Cynthia is not misused by anyone? That's what I just described before. I feel fairly good about that. With these things, content moderation is hard. We're never going to be perfect. I think we're investing a lot of time and I'm actually really confident where we are at the moment.
Open AI 在确保他们的模型不产生偏见、错误信息和误导信息方面做了很多工作。我认为整个行业都围绕这个问题展开了合作。对于我和我们而言，我认为有两个问题。一个是我们如何确保Cynthia 不被任何人滥用？这就是我之前描述的情况。对此我感到相当满意。内容审查是一项困难的工作，我们永远不会完美无缺。我认为我们正在投入大量时间，目前我对我们所处的情况非常有信心。
The other part of this is outside of Cynthia, these technologies will develop, not just on video generation. That's much harder to control. You'll have a lot of open source that comes out. I'm definitely pro open source. If you look at the bad access today that are using open source because that's of course going to like no safeguards around it. It might be other companies, but less ethical actors. You'll have lots of other problems around these things. We're not going to debond it because I can talk about this for hours. Do a separate episode on that. The tech that I find really interesting, the solution to this problem, the obvious ones is like education, for example. We need to expose people to this type of content as quick as we can in good positive use cases that people understand that this is not possible. That's like ground level.
这部分是关于辛西娅之外的技术发展，不仅仅是视频生成。这部分更难控制。会有很多开源技术涌现出来。我绝对支持开源。如果你看看今天那些使用开源技术的不良访问者，因为当然对此没有任何保障。可能会有其他公司，但更不道德的行为者。这些问题周围会有许多其他问题。我们不会深入讨论这个，因为我可以谈论这个话题数小时。要在这个问题上分开一集专门讨论。我真正感兴趣的技术，解决这个问题的显而易见的解决方案，比如教育。我们需要尽快让人们接触到这种内容，以良好的正面使用案例，让人们明白这是不可能的。这是基础。
I really hope that schools start teaching people about journalism, AI, make them generate images, use check, TBT, some easier, whatever. That goes without saying education is super important. There's been for many years, there's like detection idea that's still floating around. I think it might be one signal you can use in the future, but the problem with deep fake detection, for example, is that it's super unstable, provides a potentially false signal, and it's an internal cat and mouse game.
我真的希望学校开始教授人们关于新闻学、人工智能，让他们生成图像，采用核对、TBT等一些更简单的方法。教育毋庸置疑是非常重要的。多年来存在这样一种看法，似乎仍然挥之不去。我认为这可能是你未来可以使用的一个信号，但例如深度伪造检测的问题是，它非常不稳定，可能提供虚假信号，并且是内部的猫鼠游戏。
The people who are motivated to try and bypass those systems will put a lot of effort into doing it. I don't think that's the solution. What I think is really interesting is this idea of provenance. We're working with Adobe on this. They have something called the C2PA content of the initiative. I've heard a bit about this. It's really interesting. It's super cool technology. The idea is basically that you want to have a provenance for all content you could choose online so that you as a user know who created it, knows it uploaded, how has it created, and this goes above just outside of just like Genes of AI, right? This could also just be any kind of video clip, what it's actually originally from. We don't know that today.
那些有动力尝试绕过这些系统的人将付出很多努力去做。我认为这不是解决办法。我认为真正有趣的是这个溯源的概念。我们正在与Adobe合作。他们有一个叫做C2PA内容倡议的东西。我听说了一些关于这个的内容。这真的很有趣，是一项非常酷的技术。基本的想法是，你想要为你在线选择的所有内容都有一个溯源，这样你作为用户就知道是谁创造了它，知道谁上传了它，它是如何创建的，这并不仅仅是AI的基因。这也可以是任何视频剪辑，它实际上是从哪里来的。我们今天并不知道。
You could do that by essentially embedding this kind of invisible watermark slash metadata inside the continent itself. If you have that, I think we could move to an internet where the default would be that you're watching trusted content. If you're seeing something where there's no provenance chain, you as a user would be alerted to this. That's kind of the opposite of how this trust system works today. If you go to Instagram or Facebook or whatever, you will have celebrities that are kind of high-risk targets.
通过在内容本身内部嵌入这种看不见的水印或元数据，您就可以做到这一点。如果有了这个，我认为我们可以进入一个互联网世界，其中默认情况下您观看的是可信内容。如果您看到一些没有可靠来源链的内容，作为用户，您将会收到警报。这与今天的信任系统的运作方式正好相反。如果您登录Instagram、Facebook或其他社交媒体平台，您会发现一些名人是高风险目标。
They'll have a verification thing so that you as a user know that they are verified and it's actually them. So the way it works today is that you are actively told if something is verified. We want to move to a world where you're told if something is not verified, right? And so I think that from profiles and social media networks all the way down to the individual piece of content, if we start tagging all this content, we can actually move into a world where you as a user will have probably hopefully a fairly good way to assess the critique, the content that you're watching online. It's a gigantic task from a technological perspective and it doesn't not going to be easy.
他们将推出一个验证系统，让用户知道他们是经过验证的，确实是他们本人。今天的操作方式是，如果某物经过验证，你会被告知。我们希望移向一个世界，告诉你哪些未经验证，对吧？因此，我认为，从个人资料和社交媒体网络到每一条内容，如果我们开始对所有内容进行标记，你作为用户将有可能有一个相当好的方式来评估你在线观看的评论和内容。从技术角度来看，这是一个巨大的任务，而且并不容易。
But with music, this has kind of already happened, right? If you upload a video of yourself dancing to Michael Jackson in your bedroom, YouTube will analyze the video when you upload it. They'll detect that there's some copyrighted music in here, then they'll slap an ad in the middle so we can pay the right soldiers. And this is sort of like the system we want, right? I usually explain that it's like Shazam, but for media content, where when you're consuming some content, you as a user can kind of like Shazamit and you'll be able to see roughly kind of where to originate from. Because this solves the not just deep fake problem, it also solves the problem with you taking a video of an explosion that happened seven years ago somewhere and then saying that happened yesterday, for example, which is most misinformation disinformation today revolves around like what's called shallow fates, right?
但是用音乐来说，这种情况已经发生过了，对吧？如果你上传一个在卧室里跳迈克尔·杰克逊舞蹈的视频，YouTube会在你上传时分析视频。他们会检测到视频中有一些版权音乐，然后会在中间插入广告，以便我们支付正确的版权费。这有点像我们想要的体制，对吧？我通常会解释说，这就像Shazam，但是用于媒体内容，当你消费某些内容时，你作为用户可以类似于用Shazam识别，你就能大致知道其来源。因为这解决了不仅是深度伪造问题，也解决了你拍摄了一个七年前发生在某处的爆炸的视频，然后声称那是昨天发生的，比如，大多数的虚假信息今天都围绕着所谓的浅伪造。
So I'm really excited about that kind of path to the technology. And I think great strides be made toward it. But it really requires that the whole ecosystem collaborates from content creation tools like us all the way to distribution platforms like YouTube and better platforms. It's so interesting. Yeah, I was talking with Adobe's Scott Belsky recently about this exact problem that you're talking about. And, you know, we were discussing how music, as you just pointed out, has a similar structure that's already in place that people have been badmouthing for decades, right? It's a very antiquated system. It's extremely manual. But now that it was as we answer this this world of AI, where everything that's get created is a derivative of a derivative of a derivative, it's actually like kind of a model for what the future should be. And so it's pretty cool to hear that companies like yours and Adobe are heading in that direction. Very, very cool. What do you think about for for Cynthia, what do you think about other media formats? Will you always be super focused on video or are there other other formats you want to tackle eventually?
所以我对这种通往技术的道路非常兴奋。我认为朝着这个目标已经取得了巨大的进展。但实现这一目标确实需要整个生态系统的合作，从像我们这样的内容创作工具，一直到像YouTube和更好的平台这样的分发平台。这真是太有意思了。是的，我最近与Adobe的Scott Belsky讨论了你提到的这个确切问题。我们在讨论音乐时，正如你刚才指出的，它已经存在类似的结构，人们对此抱怨已有几十年了，对吧？这是一个非常古老的系统，非常手工。但现在随着我们进入这个AI的世界，一切都是派生自派生的派生物，实际上它对未来应该是一个模板。因此，听到像你们和Adobe这样的公司朝着这个方向发展，真的很酷。非常酷。你对Cynthia有什么想法？你认为其他媒体格式怎么样？你会一直专注于视频，还是最终会想尝试其他格式？
So the way we look at like a video today is that it's still incredibly early, right? We're kind of like, at the time of history, when like the first websites came out, they looked like a newspaper on a screen, right? That was kind of like what people could imagine. They would like take their physical newspaper, put it onto a screen. And already that was a pretty good product, right? Like, it's pretty cool. You could just sit behind your computer and like goes to a website and you can kind of read the newspaper. Since then, people then figure out that you can actually make links. That's pretty cool. You can make video and audio, you connect people together in like a commentary field, whatever. You can do so many things on a website that you obviously cannot do with a newspaper, right? And today, like the structure and the mental model on the website and the newspaper is just so completely different. But they started out looking very much the same, right? And I think that's also where we are with AI video and AI content actually in general, that we're still in this phase where like what we're doing today is essentially offering you a better way of creating MP4 files because we've kind of taken the camera with the equation. And that's really powerful in itself. As I think, you know, the growth of the company and everything we've done so far kind of proves. But as time goes on, I think we'll see AI video and AI content in general evolve into its own new type of media format. It's so hard to predict what that's going to look like. But once you remove all the constraints of working with hot bait linear video footage, it's just obvious that this is going to happen, right? And that's really what I think is going to happen here. I think in our world, videos will be non-linear. Maybe you can talk to the avatar. If there's something you don't understand in the video that you're watching, you can be interactive. You do so many things with these videos that we probably can't really comprehend yet. And with music, right? Maybe it's like, every time you play a song, it's like, play slightly different if you wanted to, right? You can do like a slightly different gruntshevel or slightly different melody. Like, I think it's going to afford all these new types of media formats. And so for us, the way I think of Cintisi and the long term is that we've only been really, really successful if we've managed to actually breed a new media format. That's not an indie file, but it's something different, right? And that's very exciting. I think that's ultimately what I just can't wait to see.
所以，我们今天对视频的观看方式仍然处于非常早期，对吧？我们有点像历史上那种第一个网站出现的时候，它们看起来就像屏幕上的报纸，对吧？那是人们能够想象的。他们会把自己的实体报纸放到屏幕上。而且那已经是一个相当不错的产品了，对吧？很酷。你可以坐在电脑后面去一个网站，然后就可以看报纸了。此后，人们发现你实际上可以做链接。那很酷。你可以制作视频和音频，将人们连接在一起在评论区，等等。在网站上你可以做很多事情，显然用报纸是做不到的，对吧？今天，网站和报纸上的结构和心智模型就完全不同了。但它们一开始看起来非常相似，对吧？我认为人工智能视频和实际上人工智能内容还处于这个阶段，我们仍然处于这个阶段，今天我们所做的基本上是提供一种更好的创建MP4文件的方式，因为我们已经将摄像机排除了。这本身就非常强大。我认为公司的增长和我们迄今为止所做的一切都证明了这一点。但随着时间的推移，我认为我们会看到人工智能视频和人工智能内容在总体上演变成自己全新的媒体格式。很难预测它会是什么样子。但一旦移除了使用热门线性视频素材的所有限制，这是显而易见的，会发生这种情况，对吧？我认为这将会发生。我认为在我们的世界中，视频将是非线性的。也许你可以与头像交谈。如果你在观看的视频中有什么不理解的地方，你可以进行互动。你可以用这些视频做许多事情，我们可能还无法真正理解。还有音乐，对吧？也许每次播放一首歌，如果你愿意，它可以略微不同。你可以有略微不同的和声或略微不同的旋律。我认为它将带来所有这些新类型的媒体格式。对我们来说，我对Cintesi和长期的未来的看法是，只有我们真正成功地创造了一种新的媒体格式，我们才会成功。这不是一种indie文件，而是一种不同的东西，对吧？这是非常令人兴奋的。我想这最终是我迫不及待想看到的。
We know that the technology is going to get good enough to synthesize extremely lifelike photoreal video content. But what are people going to do with this, right? That's, that's to me is the exciting thing, right? And I think it's, I'm excited about that because I feel like this, it's like being in the middle of when electronic music was invented, right? Or something like that, where you have all these people experimenting and doing different things with it. And in my lifetime, we've already seen it. You know, I think when, when, when live streaming, for example, I love this example in particular, became, you know, a technology that we could put into our mobile phones and we could just live stream from anywhere, right? And people kind of linked it with broadcasting because that's the, that's the way you could think about that. All the McKinsey consultants was like, everybody's going to start TV stations, right?
我们知道，技术将会变得足够先进，可以合成出极为逼真的逼真逼真视频内容。但人们会用这个技术做什么呢？这个，对我来说是令人兴奋的地方。我认为这很令人兴奋，因为我觉得这就像是在电子音乐被发明时身处其中一样，或者类似那样的情况，大家都在尝试和用这个技术做不同的事情。在我的一生中，我们已经见证过这种情况。比如，当直播技术成为可以装进我们的手机中，并可以随时在任何地方直播时，人们开始将其与广播联系在一起，因为这是你可能会考虑的方式。所有的麦肯锡顾问都说，每个人都会开始开设电视台。
And when I do all these things that people are doing with live TV. And absolutely no one had guessed that the $1 billion use case is going to be watching other people taking you to games on Twitch, right? For all these sort of things where there's something there about, if you know the game, you can jump into a stream at any time and you'll have full context of what's going on. That's pretty well suited for like internet streaming, right? There's, you know, this whole community around you. There's all these different things that just all kind of came together. And that was just like, okay, Twitch is the thing, right? That's the thing. That's what all everyone wants to do.
当我看到人们在直播电视上做这些事情的时候，绝对没有人猜到这个价值10亿美元的用例会是在Twitch上观看其他人带你玩游戏，对吧？对于所有这些事情，如果你了解游戏，你随时可以加入一个直播，你会完全了解正在发生的事情。这对于像互联网直播这样的东西非常适合，对吧？周围有整个社区，有所有这些不同的东西都汇集在一起。这就像，好的，Twitch就是那个事，对吧？那就是那件事。这就是所有人都想做的事情。
And so I think, you know, that, that kind of made life to me to a different format. Now YouTube has come after it, but that's through YouTube, like five years, something, right? Before they had a good live streaming product. And so I think, you know, we're going to see this play out again. And again, like my, my mental model, this is just history repeats itself over and over and over again. And we always think it's different this time, but it just really is right. So I, I'm even internally, you know, we're very kind of like, we don't want to be prescriptive around what we think this is going to look like. We want to learn with our customers and sort of, you know, want to feature at a time, build our way towards that future.
所以我认为，你知道的，这种使生活变得更加不同的格式。现在YouTube已经开始发展起来了，但这是通过YouTube，大约五年左右吧？在他们推出一个好的直播产品之前。所以我认为，你知道的，我们会看到这种情况再次发生。就像我的心理模型一样，历史总是不断重复。我们总是以为这一次不同，但实际上并非如此。所以，即使在内部，我们也非常谨慎，我们不想提前预测未来会是什么样子。我们想要与客户一起学习，一步一步地朝着那个未来发展。
But I can't wait to see where we aren't three years time. It's so true. And it's so interesting, right? Like it almost feels like we're in this phase of AI right now where we're trying to map everything that gets done to existing formats or legacy formats, right? And to use your example from earlier, it's like when the drum machine came out, you know, the first use cases were probably, how do I replace the kick drum in this rock song? And it's like, no, no, no, this isn't actually this isn't for rock. This is a whole new genre. It's called electronic music, right? If you take that example, right? It's like, you can do things with a drum machine you could never do with a real drum.
但我迫不及待想看看我们在三年后会发展到哪个地步。这是如此真实。这是如此有趣，对吧？就好像我们现在正处于人工智能的阶段，我们正在尝试将所有完成的工作都映射到现有格式或遗留格式上，对吧？就像你之前提到的例子，就好比当电子鼓问世时，最初的用例可能是，如何用它来取代摇滚歌曲中的重击鼓。但实际上，这并不是为摇滚乐而设计的。它是一个全新的流派，叫做电子音乐，对吧？如果你以此为例，你可以用电子鼓做一些真正的鼓无法做到的事情。
Right. Like you could literally have like 10 drummers and 10 different drum tracks in a machine that's like the size of like a VHS machine or something like that back then, right? And you could play, you know, at speeds and like different patterns of all having ways you really couldn't do before. And that is the exciting thing about new technology. Right? It's just absolutely. It's and I think it's so I think I could mention a model for people who are building AI today, really is like, what is you can do with this technology that you couldn't really do before. And there's one, you know, element of this, which is just like, because if you want to do something cool and exciting, but it's also if you can anger it to something, you know, that kind of, if you anger it's this like newspaper on a screen sort of thing.
没错。就像你可以在一台大小像VHS机一样的机器里拥有10位鼓手和10个不同的鼓声轨道一样，对吧？你可以以前所不能的速度和不同的模式演奏，这就是新技术的令人兴奋之处。对吧？这绝对是。我认为对于今天正在构建人工智能的人来说，一个模型就是，你能用这项技术做到以前无法做到的事情。这其中有一个因素，就是因为你想要做一些酷炫和令人兴奋的事情，但也可以将其转变为一些可以用来制作报纸屏幕之类的东西。
If that's like what you're building for an incumbent, it's also going to be much easier to just add that as a feature to whatever product that they already have. Whereas if you're building something fundamentally new, that where everything revolves around for us that would be AI voices and AI avatars, you can build something very new, very cool, very unique, as opposed to if you're just like bolting AI onto across them, support chat, whatever, whatever. My favorite example right now is like character AI, but maybe from a little bit of that company.
如果你正在为一个现有的机构构建产品，如果你的产品与他们已有的产品功能不冲突，那么将会更容易地把你的新功能添加进去。相反，如果你正在构建一些全新的东西，例如围绕人工智能声音和人工智能化身展开的项目，你可以创造出非常新颖、酷炫、独特的产品。与将人工智能简单地添加到支持聊天等已有功能上相比，你可以打造出全新的产品。我最喜欢的例子是，目前有公司正从中受益。
Yeah, absolutely. But it's like, if you told people one and a half year ago, or three years ago, that one of the most attentive use cases for like chatbots was going to be people talking to LLMs for hours, like this fest is insane for hours on end, despite knowing that it's an AI chatbot they're talking to, people thought you were ludicrous, right? You wouldn't believe it. Yeah. You wouldn't believe it. But this is now one of the things where like, that is probably one of the most promising AI companies right now who did something completely new, right? And it's not about like creative writing. This is literally about like having an AI friend or whatever way to phrase it. And so I think we'll see so many more examples in the next like 12 to 18 months now that these technologies are kind of like more broadly available, easy to build with. And it's just kind of exciting to see what people build. Totally.
是的，绝对的。但就好像，如果你在一年半前，或者三年前告诉人们，类似于聊天机器人的一个最引人关注的用例竟然是人们与LLMs聊天几个小时，这简直疯狂得不可思议，尽管他们知道他们正在与一个AI聊天机器人交谈，人们可能觉得你疯了，对吧？你绝对不会相信。是的。你绝对不会相信。但现在这已经是一家最有前途的AI公司之一，他们做了一些全新的事情，对吧？这不是关于创意写作。这实际上是关于拥有一个AI朋友或以其他方式说。因此，我认为在接下来的12至18个月里，我们将看到更多的例子，现在这些技术变得更广泛可用，更易于构建。看看人们会构建什么，这真的令人兴奋。完全同意。
Before we wrap, have a couple of fun ones for you. So obviously, you know, Cynthia is easily one of the most hype, it's one of the most exciting AI companies of the past year. What has been some of the fun kind of results of this? And I'll just throw out a couple examples. I saw that messy made a video using the product. I saw that you recently went to 10 Downing Street, like talk about some of the some of the fun things that have happened over the past year.
在我们结束之前，给你们几个有趣的话题。显然，你们知道，辛西娅很容易就成为了去年最令人兴奋的人工智能公司之一。这带来了哪些有趣的结果呢？我举几个例子。我看到梅西做了一个使用这个产品的视频。我看到你最近去了唐宁街10号，谈谈过去一年发生的一些有趣的事情。
I mean, there's so many good memories. I actually think one of the best ones is like all the way in the beginning when we started the company. This kind of sounds like one of those family stories that I kind of made up of the fact, but everything here is actually one of the true. So when we tried to raise the first round of funding, we thought we had like these amazing professors, great idea. We were like, I think it was 24 or 25 at the time. So we went out into London where we're based, right? And we just got no unknown. I think we got like a little bit under like a hundred nose like nobody bought into it, right? It sounded crazy. And I think I don't think we were like we're not the typical founders that people are looking to back.
我的意思是，有很多美好的回忆。实际上，我认为其中最好的之一是在我们刚开始创办公司的时候。这听起来有点像是我虚构出来的一个家庭故事，但这里的每件事都是真实的。所以当我们尝试筹集第一轮资金时，我们以为我们有这些了不起的教授、伟大的想法。那时我们应该是24或25岁吧。所以我们去了伦敦，我们就在那里。我们完全没有人知道。我想我们得到了差不多100次拒绝，没有人支持我们，对吧？听起来很疯狂。我觉得我们不是那种人，人们期望支持的典型创始人。
And so after this very long, very painful period close to giving up, we've like, you know, we liquidate all of our Bitcoin and crypto stuff, like pay for like our first employee to like build a tech. Then Steph, my co-founder and sent an email, I called the email to Mark Cuban, which he's found his email in the Sony hack one few years before. He's like, Hey, Mark, we're building this technology to think it's interesting. He applies back five minutes later. I of course don't believe him. I think he's just like pulling a joke on me. But it was actually him. And then we have our 13 hour long email conversation with Mark Cuban asking insanely good questions. He knew everything about this technology. He'd implemented himself. And it is free time with with a lecturer. He he already is there one of those things where like the thesis we completely agreed on. He was like totally on board with that. He was just trying to understand how we were thinking about actually getting there. And after the 13 hour, he just said, I'll do the million dollars. Assuming diligence goes through. That was like four in for us. And you know, had some some champagne and then we jumped on a plane to LA to see him in the day after. And that was just like an absolutely magical experience. And to this day, still so impressed by Mark, I think his public image in like a shark tank is great. But he is like, he really gets technology. And he understood Gen Z of AI like way before anyone else we met at least, which is which was awesome. And it's been fantastic to partner with him.
在经历了那么长时间，那么痛苦的快要放弃的时期之后，我们就像清算了我们所有的比特币和加密货币，用来支付第一个员工来构建技术。然后，我的联合创始人Steph发了封邮件给马克·库班，他在几年前的索尼黑客事件中找到了他的邮箱。他说：“嘿，马克，我们正在开发这项技术，觉得挺有趣的。”五分钟后他就回复了。当然我不信他，我以为他只是在开我玩笑。但事实上是他本人。然后我们和马克·库班进行了长达13个小时的邮件对话，他提出了非常好的问题。他对这项技术了如指掌，他自己也实施过。在空闲时间里会和一位讲师讨论。我们的观点完全一致，他完全支持我们。他只是想了解我们是如何想法实现的。13个小时之后，他说：“我会提供100万美元，只要尽职调查通过。”这对我们来说是个重大的机会。我们喝了些香槟，然后第二天就乘飞机去洛杉矶和他见面。那是一个绝对神奇的经历。直到今天，我仍然深受马克的印象，我觉得他在《创智圈》中的公众形象不错，但实际上他非常了解技术。他早在其他人之前就理解了AI和Z世代，这真是太棒了。和他合作一直是一件很棒的事情。
That's super cool. That is an amazing story. Real quick, your company's based in London. There's a lot of buzz right now about Europe, London and Europe more broadly as a as a very sort of growing tech hub. Give me your thoughts on Europe tech. I think I think we're in a good spot. Right. I think when we started six, seven years ago, that's a lot harder. I think there's been a few things that has helped significantly.
太酷了。这是一个令人惊奇的故事。真快，你们公司的总部在伦敦。目前有很多关于欧洲、伦敦和欧洲更广泛地成为一个不断增长的科技中心的讨论。告诉我你对欧洲科技的看法。我认为我们现在处在一个良好的位置。当我们六七年前开始时，情况要困难得多。我认为有几点对我们有显著帮助。
I actually think COVID has been a huge factor here because in COVID, right? And everybody had to raise money entirely by assume like I used to do the pilgrimages to to the Bay Area and before COVID to try and try and raise funds. But over COVID, right? The whole world just became more global. And I think that's been really helpful to to European companies who all of a sudden had much better access to the American investors, American market, which you know, my reason this is especially for the seed stage has been great because that much a lot of Europe,
我认为COVID实际上在这里起到了重要作用，因为在COVID期间，对吧？每个人都不得不全力以赴筹集资金，就像我过去常常参加朝圣活动去湾区，在COVID之前尝试筹集资金。但是在COVID期间，整个世界变得更加全球化。我认为这对欧洲公司特别有帮助，他们突然间有了更好的机会接触美国投资者和美国市场，这对于种子阶段来说尤其有益，因为欧洲拥有大量，
I think European investors are still more of the kind of, you know, reduce the risks mindset rather than like seeing the upside. And so I think a lot of money, of course, went into European startup in the last couple of years. That's really awesome to see. And it's with remote culture, it's much less controversial now to be based in Europe. And in AI specifically, there's also just amazing talent specifically in London. And that is just very important for an ecosystem to develop. So we have Oxford, UCL, Kings Imperial here. And they are some of the world's need AI labs. Take that and then you combine it with some earliest success stories.
我认为欧洲投资者更多地是一种减少风险的心态，而不是看到上涨的可能性。所以我认为在过去几年里很多资金都流入了欧洲的创业公司，这实在是令人兴奋。随着远程文化的普及，现在在欧洲设立基地也不再那么具有争议性。特别是在人工智能领域，伦敦也拥有一些令人惊叹的人才。这对一个生态系统的发展非常重要。我们这里有牛津大学、伦敦大学学院(UCL)、国王学院和帝国学院。它们是全球一些最需要的人工智能实验室。结合一些早期成功案例，可以看出。
So keep mind, for example, was founded in London at UCL, we really start to get this very healthy ecosystem of people wanting to not just work in Fang and in research, but also start companies. So I feel like Europe is a great place to be. There's pros and cons to everything. But I think as a founder, I think like you, when you're doing something that works, there's less competition versus less great companies in Europe, as much as I hate to say it. And that's early. It's early. I think that is like, I think that's actually a quite good competitive advantage.
因此，例如，Keep Mind成立在伦敦的UCL，我们真的开始建立起一个非常健康的生态系统，许多人不仅想要在Fang和研究领域工作，还想要创办公司。我觉得欧洲是一个很好的地方。每件事情都有利有弊。但我认为作为创始人，当你做的事情有效果时，与欧洲的优秀公司相比，竞争更少，尽管我不想这么说。这是早期。这是早期。我认为这实际上是一个相当不错的竞争优势。
And I'm personally really excited to see where you'll go. One of the sort of scary things in Europe right now is the AI act. I don't know how much you've been following that, but AI regulation has caused a huge topic around the world. I'm very pro-regulation. I think we have the right safeguards. I think companies should be held responsible. But some of the suggestions that are up at the moment, and I don't think it's going to be beneficial to Europe's growth in the long term from a startup in the Epic perspective before today.
而且，我个人非常期待看到你未来会走到哪里。目前在欧洲的一个让人担心的问题就是AI法案。我不知道你有多少关注这一问题，但AI监管已经成为全球范围内的一个重大话题。我非常赞成监管。我认为我们应该拥有正确的保障措施。我认为公司应该要承担责任。但目前提出的一些建议，我并不认为从长远的角度看，对欧洲的增长会有益处，特别是从Epic的角度看。
This has been awesome. Thank you so much, Victor. Really appreciate you coming on and looking forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks, Aaron. Mike. This is fun. Thanks, Aaron. Thank you so much for tuning into my conversation with Victor. Follow generative now. This podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, whether that's Spotify or YouTube or Apple podcasts. Also, if you enjoy the episode, please do us a favor and rate and review it. That really helps.
这真是太棒了。非常感谢你，维克多。非常感谢你的参加，期待很快再和你交谈。谢谢，亚伦。麦克。这很有趣。谢谢，亚伦。非常感谢你收听我和维克多的对话。现在就关注产生力吧。无论你在哪里获取播客，无论是Spotify，YouTube还是Apple Podcasts。此外，如果你喜欢这一集，请帮我们一个忙，给它评分和评论。那真的很有帮助。
If you want to hear more from me or Lightspeed, you could follow me at Mignano on X slash Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, everywhere else. And if you want to follow Lightspeed, you can follow them at Lightspeed VP, all those same platforms. Thanks again to Victor. And generative now is produced by Lightspeed in partnership with Podpeople. Special thanks to our production team, including Rebecca Chason, Brian Rivers, Grace Pena, Amy Machado, and Rachel King. We will be back next week with another awesome conversation. We hope you tune in. Don't miss it. See you.
如果你想了解更多关于我或Lightspeed的信息，可以在X slash Twitter、LinkedIn、Instagram等平台关注我Mignano。如果你想关注Lightspeed，可以在Lightspeed VP上关注他们，这些平台都有。再次感谢Victor。《Generative Now》由Lightspeed与Podpeople合作制作。特别感谢我们的制作团队，包括Rebecca Chason、Brian Rivers、Grace Pena、Amy Machado和Rachel King。下周我们将回来带来另一场精彩对话，希望您能收听，不要错过。再见。