Satya Nadella - CEO of Microsoft | In Good Company | Podcast | Norges Bank Investment Management

Hi there, I've just had the most incredible experience of my life, having been allowed to interview Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, which is now the most valuable company in the world. Wow, please tune in. Satya, you are the CEO of the most valuable company in the world. What's on your mind these days? Look, to me, at Nuclei, first of all, it's great to be with you and have this conversation here, what's top of mind for me is twofold, right? One is, I'm grounded in the fact that in our business, in tech business, now this is my 32nd year at Microsoft, I know that for a fact, there's no such thing as a franchise value, and so that means every day you have to get up and hopefully you're doing things that are going to be relevant tomorrow. And so to me, that's sort of perhaps the biggest lesson learned over all these decades and years. And so here we are on what is essentially a complete new platform shift that we're in the midstop, right? I kind of say, it's my 32nd year, but it's year two of my fourth platform shift.

嗨，我刚刚经历了我生命中最令人难以置信的经历，被允许采访微软的CEO萨特亚·纳德拉，现在微软是世界上最有价值的公司。哇，快来关注吧。萨特亚，你是世界上最有价值的公司的CEO。这段时间你在想什么？ 看，对我来说，在Nuclei公司，首先很高兴能和你在这里交谈，对我来说最重要的是。一是，我深知在我们的业务中，在科技业务中，我现在在微软已经是第32年了，我知道这一点，其实并不存在所谓的特许价值，这意味着，每一天你都必须起床，希望你正在做的事情会在明天仍然具有相关性。对我来说，这或许是所有这些年代间最重要的一课。所以现在我们处于一个完全新的平台转变中，我们现在正处于这个中停的位置，是吧？我可以说，这是我的第32年，但却是我经历的第四次平台转变的第二年。

And so what's on mind is, okay, what is this platform shift really all about? And as a company, can we be all in and innovate, right? I mean, at the end of the day, when I say there's no franchise value, it also means that you get to play for it all up again. And the battles we won and the battles we lost are all up for grab again. And so therefore, there's a freshness to it. So what's on my mind is, you know, that ability to ground myself back yet on another platform shift and it's exciting.

所以我心里想的是，好吧，这个平台转变到底是什么意思？作为一家公司，我们能全部投入并创新吗？我的意思是，最终，当我说没有特许权价值时，也意味着你可以重新努力争取一切。我们赢得的战斗和输掉的战斗都可以重新开始。因此，这给人一种新鲜感。所以我心里想的是，你知道，我有能力在另一个平台转变中保持平静，这是令人兴奋的。

The fact that there is no franchise value, does that make you nervous? Absolutely. I mean, it should make everyone a fuzz nervous, right? At least that's why the tech is so exciting, right? It's sort of, it's kind of like the two sides to the same coin, right? One is your nervous and it's exciting. So therefore you can't rest. But at the same time, hey, who wants to be in a business that, you know, where you don't get to reinvent yourself again and again? Absolutely. Do you think we look at tech in two narrow way sense? I mean, how can technology really be a driver for the next level of economic growth? Yeah, that's a great, great question. I think a lot about that, right? Which is, in some sense, if you think at a GDP level, tech spend, narrowly defined, it's probably four or five percent. So the question is, what is happening with the other 95 percent?

没有特许权价值，这会让你感到紧张吗？绝对。我的意思是，这应该让每个人都有点紧张，对吧？至少这就是科技如此令人兴奋的原因，对吧？这有点像同一枚硬币的两面，对吧？一面是你紧张而且兴奋。因此你不能松懈。但与此同时，嘿，谁想在一个你不得不一遍又一遍重新发明自己的业务中呢？绝对。你认为我们是否以太狭隘的方式看待科技？我的意思是，科技如何真正成为下一阶段经济增长的驱动力呢？是的，这是一个很棒的问题。我经常思考这个问题，对吧？在某种程度上，如果你从GDP的角度看，科技的花费，狭义上定义，可能只占四到五个百分点。所以问题是，其他95%发生了什么？

So one of the ways I've always thought about the prospects of any new technological paradigm or platform shift, like take AI. If AI is going to be the next big general purpose technology, for me, the real opportunity is let's say tech spend goes from five to 10 percent over the next five years or what have you or 10 years, then what happens to the other 90 percent and the pie does it become bigger, right? Does the, do we have a breakthrough in healthcare driven by AI? Do we have a breakthrough in material science and energy transition because of AI? And the list goes on, right? So to me, that is fundamentally the way I think about it, right? Which is, I think that one of the things that might be most important for us is to consider how a general purpose technology, somebody was telling me this, right?

所以我一直对任何新技术范式或平台转变的前景有着自己的看法，比如人工智能。如果人工智能将成为下一个重要的通用技术，对我来说，真正的机会在于，假设科技支出在接下来的五年内从5%增长到10%，或者在10年内，那么其他90%的支出会发生什么变化？饼图会变得更大吗？我们是否会因为人工智能在医疗领域取得突破？我们是否会因为人工智能在材料科学和能源转型方面取得突破？等等。所以对我来说，这基本上是我思考问题的方式，对吧？我认为其中最重要的一点可能是考虑通用技术，有人告诉我这个观点。

Which is in the height of the industrial revolution, in the United Kingdom, they spent 10 percent of their GDP building the railroads. And obviously the railroads not just is not about the railroads, it was about the entire economy of the United Kingdom. And so something like that, I think, is what that's the unit of analysis, at least for me as to how tech and its future will impact the broader society and economy. Now, Google had almost all the top AI people and you suddenly got ahead, partly due to your partnership with OpenAI. Now, how did that come about? I mean, to me, the way I came at this, Nikolai, is just very simple, which is obviously we mean, like, I think the very first thing Microsoft research did in 1995 when it was formed was some stuff around speech, right?

在工业革命的顶峰时期，英国花费了其国内生产总值的10%来建设铁路。显然，铁路不仅仅是关于铁路本身，它涉及整个英国经济。所以我认为，这种情况就是我的分析单位，至少对我来说，技术及其未来将如何影响更广泛的社会和经济。现在，谷歌拥有几乎所有顶尖的人工智能专家，你突然取得了领先地位，部分是由于你与OpenAI的合作。那是怎么发生的呢？对我来说，我对这个问题的看法很简单，明显，我认为，就像微软研究在1995年成立时所做的第一件事情是围绕语音技术展开研究。

1. In fact, I think we hired a bunch of folks from CMU. And so we've been at this AI thing in its variety of different forms forever. And so one of the things that when I met with the OpenAI folks and Sam and Greg and crew back in, you know, I would say when they were working even on the Dota 2 contest and what have you, was to sort of say, wow, they have a new different approach to things and we wanted to partner. I mean, you know, one of the things that I've always looked at over my years at Microsoft is look for high ambition, technology innovation companies, right? Whether it, you know, and partnership, like whether it's Intel and Windows came together and that was successful, SAP and SQL Server, so it ca 2. me together and it was successful. So I'm always looking for partners that we can innovate with. And that's what I found in Sam and Team and our, and we, you know, at that time, it was not like it was a, it was a real shot in the dark, right? It is not like, oh, wow, this is a sure, sure thing. Everybody now talks about it as if, you know, this is the issue with tech, right? Which is long before it's conventional wisdom, you have to be all in and hope it works. And this is one of those things where we backed it long before it was conventional wisdom. And here we are. Yeah. But I don't take, you know, like there's going to be a severe amount of competition, yo 3. u know, Google's a very competent company. And obviously they have both the talent and the compute and they have, you know, they're the vertically integrated player in this, right? They have everything from data to silicon to models to app products and distribution. And there's others as well. And so, yeah, we will have significant amount of competition. And I think if anything, Microsoft partnership with OpenAI is bringing more competition to otherwise what would have been a default, Google should be the default winner. And if we partner well and we innovate well, we could bring some competition to them.

事实上，我认为我们雇了很多来自CMU的人。所以我们一直在不同形式的人工智能领域努力了很久。当我和OpenAI的人还有Sam、Greg以及团队会面时，我想说的是，哇，他们有一种新的不同的方法，我们想要合作。我一直在微软工作多年，一直在寻找高志向、技术创新公司的合作伙伴。无论是英特尔和Windows合作成功的例子还是SAP和SQL Server合作成功的例子。我一直在寻找可以一起创新的合作伙伴。我在Sam和他的团队身上找到了这种合作精神。当时并不是像现在这样肯定能成功的决定，这并不是一件确定会成功的事。大家现在都在谈论这个问题，这是技术的问题，就是在它成为大众智慧之前，你必须全力以赴，希望一切顺利。这是我们长远背后支持的事情之一。但我不会觉得，你知道，会有相当激烈的竞争，你知道，谷歌是一个非常有实力的公司。显然他们有人才和计算力，他们是这个领域的垂直整合者，他们拥有从数据到硅片到模型到应用产品和分销的一切。其他公司也是一样。是的，我们将面临相当大的竞争。我认为，如果说有什么的话，微软和OpenAI的合作将带来更多的竞争，否则谷歌可能会成为默认的赢家。如果我们合作得当，我们进行得好创新，我们也能为他们带来些许竞争。

4. So if you look three to five years from now, where is Microsoft in this whole AI ecosystem, you think? So to me, I think about this in the fullness of the stack, right? So I want us to have first and foremost the best AI infrastructure. So that means when it comes to Azure, whether it's for training, whether it's for inference to have fantastic infrastructure, we'll partner with N video, we'll partner with AMD, we'll have our own silicon, we will have our own system architecture, we will take the best system architecture innovation from Jensen and Lisa and others who may come along and make sure Azure is serving the needs of OpenAI, serving the needs of Mistral, serving the needs of Phi that we are building, right, which is the small language model. So that's kind of the first thing that we want to do, which is the best work in being able to build the infrastructure out for both training and inference.

那么，如果你往未来三到五年的方向看，你认为微软在整个人工智能生态系统中会处于何种地位？对我来说，我会全面考虑这个问题，对吧？我希望我们首先拥有最优秀的人工智能基础设施。这意味着在Azure方面，无论是用于训练还是推理，都要有出色的基础设施，我们会与英伟达和AMD合作，我们会拥有自己的芯片，我们会拥有自己的系统架构，我们会吸收来自Jensen和Lisa等人最佳的系统架构创新，并确保Azure能够满足OpenAI、Mistral和我们正在开发的Phi等项目的需求，对吧，它是一种小型语言模型。所以这是我们想要做的第一件事，即能够在训练和推理方面构建出最优秀的基础设施。

5. And then the next layer up, we want to have like the entire data tier, right? So you can imagine as these models and model capabilities become, you know, more capable, I think the data tier will be completely redone, right? We've talked with the retrieval augmented generation already, you have all these things where there's embeddings, vector search, how do you chunk data such that retrieval augmented generation can work well. So that's an entire layer or when context lens become bigger, that's a different sort of data layer, like what's the throughput between data and your inference fleet? How do you sort of think about that? So therefore, we will innovate on the data layer.

然后，再上一层，我们希望像整个数据层，对吧？所以你可以想象当这些模型和模型功能变得更加强大时，我认为数据层将会完全重做。我们已经谈论过检索增强生成，你有所有这些关于嵌入、向量搜索的东西，如何对数据进行分块使得检索增强生成能够很好地工作。因此，这是一个整个层次，或者当上下文长度变得更长时，那是一种不同类型的数据层，比如数据和推断团队之间的吞吐量是多少？你怎样考虑这个问题？因此，我们将在数据层进行创新。

6. And then of course, on top of it is where we will innovate on our co-pilots. One of the first products we built was get up co-pilot. In fact, my entire confidence in this generation of AI started when I started seeing from GPD 3 to 3 5 and that implementation in GitHub. And so we now have, you know, not only get up co-pilot, we have co-pilot for all knowledge work in Microsoft 365. We have co-pilots for these functions, whether it's service or sales or finance. So we're going to innovate in our app layer on our own. And so that's I think fundamentally how I look at it. It's a full stack approach. And each layer, by the way, we will innovate.

然后，当然，我们将在这基础上进行我们的共同飞行员创新。我们建立的第一个产品是get up co-pilot。事实上，我对这一代人工智能的信心始于我看到从GPD 3到3 5再到GitHub中的实施。因此，我们现在不仅拥有get up共同飞行员，还在Microsoft 365中拥有所有知识工作的共同飞行员。无论是服务、销售还是财务，我们都有共同飞行员。因此，我们将在我们自己的应用程序层上进行创新。这是我如何从根本上看待的。 这是一种全栈方法。顺便说一句，每一层我们都会进行创新。

7. We will have partners. We will have others innovating. There will be competition even. It's not like, you know, one of the things of being a platform company is you got to be comfortable with many third parties competing with you on different layers because that, to me, is core. Otherwise, you kind of try to, you know, do everything in a monolithic way. And at least what we have learned over the years is the best thing to do is to keep each layer competitive on its own. You said in the beginning that we are year two into this paradigm shift. How do you see it compared to other technological breakthroughs that you've been through?

我们会有合作伙伴。我们会有其他人创新。甚至会有竞争。就像，你知道的，作为一个平台公司的一部分，你必须习惯于许多第三方在不同层面上与你竞争，因为这对我来说是核心。 否则，你会尝试以单一的方式做所有事情。至少我们多年来学到的最好的做法是保持每个层面都具有竞争力。 你在一开始说我们正在经历这种范式转变已经两年了。你如何看待它与你经历过的其他技术突破相比？

8. So at least the four I've seen, Nicola, is obviously PC client server, both what happened on the PC and the server side. That was my first. That's kind of when I joined 92, we're at the beginning of that. Then there was the web internet. And then there was mobile cloud and so AI is the fourth. I think one of the interesting things is each one of these built on the previous, right? So I don't think the web would have happened if there was not a ubiquitous PC. But all the first time I saw Mosaic, you know, who was as a browser on top of Windows, right? So, and then Netscape came about and then IE and what have you. And so therefore, I think you sort of see each one of these butts the next. And then it goes beyond what both do, right? That's, I think, the real thing. And right now we're seeing that, right?

至少在我看过的四个中，尼古拉，显然是PC客户端服务器，包括在PC和服务器端发生的事情。那是我的第一个。这差不多是我在92年加入的时候，我们正处于这个阶段的起步阶段。然后出现了网络互联网。接着是移动云和人工智能。我认为有趣的是，每一个新技术都是在前一个技术的基础上发展的，对吧？所以我认为如果没有普及的个人电脑，网络可能不会出现。但是当我第一次看到Mosaic时，你知道的，它是在Windows系统上的一个浏览器。然后出现了网景，以及IE等等。因此，我认为你可以看到每一个技术的发展都是基于前一个的，并且它们超越了前一个的功能。这就是我认为真正有意思的地方。现在我们正在看到这一点，对吧？

9. Which is the cloud, as we know, fitted mobile and PCs on the edge have really birthed the AI age. And the question is what happens next, right? Which is, does it go beyond that? And that I think is more, I mean, there's going to be AI that is not just about cognitive work, AI that is also going to accelerate science. So I think that that's an exciting space. AI that is going to be embodied in the real world. So what may happen in robotics is an exciting space. And so there is a bunch of things that are going to happen over time. But clearly, yes, this is year two of a complete new paradigm that obviously reinforces what happened, or builds on what happened previously, but also showing early signs of what happens next.

正如我们所知，云计算、移动设备和个人电脑的融合真正孕育了人工智能时代。接下来会发生什么呢？是否会超越这一点？我认为更多的是，不仅仅是认知工作的人工智能，还将加速科学发展。所以我认为这是一个充满激动的领域。人工智能将融入现实世界。在机器人领域可能会发生什么是一个令人兴奋的领域。所以随着时间的推移，会发生许多事情。但显然，是一个全新范式的第二年，显然巩固了之前发生的事情，同时也展示了接下来会发生的早期迹象。

10. If there had been no shortage of chips now, would the development have gone even faster? That's a good question in the sense of scaling laws, right? So there are two sides to it, right? There's the training side and the inference side. On the training side, clearly compute and compute scale and the scaling laws have proven to be very successful. And the question is, how long does that go? Is there going to be an another model architecture breakthrough or what have you? I think that one has to see. It's unclear. But we definitely are not going to bet against scaling laws. Not are we going to bet against, or not are we going to say that this is the last model architecture breakthrough. In fact, a great example of it is even what we've seen even with a small language model innovation like five, right? Which is we are able to create what is significant capabilities in a small language model, which doesn't require obviously the same amount of compute, right? Which is like just like attention is everything. Actually, it's all you need.

如果现在没有芯片短缺，发展会更快吗？这是一个关于规模定律的好问题，对吧？这个问题有两方面，对吧？训练方面，显然计算和计算规模以及规模定律已被证明非常成功。问题是，这将持续多久？是否会有另一个模型架构的突破或其他什么？我认为这需要观察。目前还不清楚。但我们肯定不会反对规模定律。也不会反对，或者说这是最后一个模型架构的突破。事实上，一个很好的例子甚至是我们甚至看到的一个小语言模型创新，比如five，对吧？我们能够在一个小语言模型中创造出重要的能力，这显然不需要同样数量的计算，对吧？这就像关注力是一切。事实上，这就是你需要的一切。

Textbooks is all you need. I mean, that sort of intuitively speaks to how I think learning can happen. And so therefore, I would say, yes, if more capacity there is in the world, the chances are that we will be able to make progress. But at the same time, I wouldn't discount a real breakthrough in model architecture that doesn't perhaps require the same type of compute. So that's why I think, at least I want to keep myself open minded about it. Talking of small language models, do you think a small country like Norway should develop its own model? You know, one of the things that I've studied, there's an economist or a Dartmouth, his name is Diego Coleman. And he did one of the best longitudinal studies of technology diffusion. And the fundamental conclusion, paraphrasing, was that any country that wants to get ahead should one first make sure that they don't reinvent the wheel, which is they import the best general purpose technology that is available in and then on top of it build value at.

教科书是你所需要的一切。我的意思是，这种方式直观地阐述了我认为学习可以发生的方式。因此，我会说，是的，如果世界上有更多的容量，我们就有可能取得进步。但与此同时，我不会忽视模型架构的真正突破，也许不需要同样类型的计算。所以这就是为什么我认为，至少我想保持对此开放的态度。说到小型语言模型，你认为像挪威这样的小国家应该开发自己的模型吗？你知道，我研究过的一件事是，有一位达特茅斯学院的经济学家，他的名字是迭戈·科尔曼。他进行了一项关于技术扩散的最好的纵向研究之一。而最基本的结论是，任何想要走在前面的国家首先应该确保他们不重新发明轮子，也就是引进最好的通用技术，然后在此基础上进行增值。

So I think, for example, even on for Norway, first thing I would do is if we feel like for whatever reason, these foundation models are not good at Norwegian or what have you, then let's make sure we're fine tuning. And there are many things one could do even top of foundation models like an open AI model or a Mistral or what have you. So there are ways you can add unique knowledge, unique value on top of even what exists before you go off and say, let's build all the compute, all of it and do the same pre training run. There's nothing stopping any country from doing any of this. But the question is, what is the value add? And so therefore, I think that you start from the value add and then back into whatever is needed for it.

所以我认为，例如，即使是对于挪威，我会首先做的事情是，如果我们觉得出于任何原因，这些基础模型在挪威语方面不够好，那么让我们确保进行微调。除了基础模型，还有许多事情可以做，比如一个OpenAI模型或者一个Mistral等等。因此，即使在现有基础之上，你也可以添加独特的知识、独特的价值。在着手构建计算设备，并进行相同的预训练运行之前，没有任何东西能阻止任何国家做任何事情。但问题是，增值在哪里？因此，我认为你应该从增值出发，然后再考虑所需的步骤。

When you look at how important the big technology companies have become in geopolitics, what kind of reflections do you make? Well, I mean, at the end of the day, two things, right? One is I'm very, very grounded on the fact that we are a multinational company. It is definitely in this case a US based multinational company that has to earn permission and license to operate one country at a time. So therefore, I think of the, we're not nation states are the ones that have power. We get to operate in any nation based on our ability to contribute to that country's progress. So whenever I am, whether I'm in Norway or I'm in Jakarta or New Delhi or wherever, I am always grounded on fundamentally the fact is, are we able to make, look the local politicians and political leadership and society at large in the eyes and say that we contribute it to their public sector becoming more efficient or large multinational companies in the region becoming more globally competitive because of some tech input, education outcome, health outcomes, small businesses and their productivity. At the end of the day, your social contract with the country comes from your ability to contribute to their local progress. And that's so I don't think we can ever be beyond geopolitics will exist with or without us. And our goal has to be how do you participate and have permission to operate?

当您看到大型科技公司在地缘政治中变得如此重要时，您会做出怎样的思考呢？嗯，我是说，归根结底，有两点，对吧？首先，我非常坚定地认为我们是一家跨国公司。在这种情况下，我们是总部设在美国的跨国公司，必须逐个国家地获得许可和执照来运营。因此，我认为我们并不是拥有权力的国家。我们之所以能够在任何一个国家操作，是因为我们能够为该国的进步做出贡献。所以无论我是在挪威、雅加达、新德里或任何地方，我始终以我们能否直面当地的政治家和政治领袖以及整个社会，让他们相信我们为他们的公共部门的效率提高做出贡献，或者因为我们的技术支持、教育成果、卫生成果而让该地区的大型跨国公司更具全球竞争力，而感到自豪。归根结底，您与该国的社会契约来自您为当地进步做出的贡献。所以我认为我们永远无法摆脱地缘政治，不管有没有我们，它都会存在。我们的目标是如何参与并获得运营许可。

Moving on, in your book refresh, you talk about three areas. You talk about AI, you talk about quantum computing and mixed reality. So how, what kind of opportunities are you seeing in quantum computing? It's fascinating. In fact, I think of all those three still, right? For example, when I think about mixed reality, I think of it as that's an embodied AI, right? Whether it's autonomous, wacals, robotics or people with glasses, they're all seeing the real world is the prompt effectively. So your real world understanding. So therefore I think of in the generation of AI, some of these things become even more interesting and more important, and we do need to broaden the aperture versus thinking narrowly of just one device or one form factor.

在你的书籍《refresh》中，你谈到了三个领域。你谈到了人工智能，你谈到了量子计算和混合现实。那么，你认为量子计算有什么样的机遇呢？这很有趣。事实上，在这三个领域中，我认为量子计算仍然是最令人着迷的。比如，当我想到混合现实时，我认为这是一种具象的人工智能，对吗？无论是自主无人机、机器人还是戴着眼镜的人，他们都在有效地看到真实世界。所以你对现实世界的理解。因此，我认为在人工智能的发展中，一些这些事情变得更加有趣和重要，我们需要拓宽视野，而不仅仅是狭隘地思考一个设备或一个形态。

Similarly, quantum is a fascinating thing. When I mentioned science, right? One of the things I look at it and say is in order to make progress on science, you need great in silico simulation. Quantum is the ultimate breakthrough, right? So when we have a complete new system architecture that breaks free of the von Neumann limitation, you are then finally going to be able to simulate something like the dynamics of a cell or a molecule, right? So that I think when you can do that, then everything else, even in terms of biology, becomes more feasible. The interesting thing is AI is kind of like an emulator or that simulator.

同样地，量子是一件令人着迷的事情。当我提到科学时，对吧？我看到的一个方向是，为了在科学上取得进展，你需要进行伟大的模拟。量子是最终的突破，对吧？所以当我们拥有一个突破冯·诺伊曼架构限制的完全新系统架构时，你最终将能够模拟像细胞或分子的动力学等事物，对吧？所以我认为当你能够做到这一点时，那么其他的一切，即使是在生物学方面，也会变得更具可行性。有趣的是，人工智能有点像是一种模拟器或者模拟器。

In other words, you can kind of simplify the search space. And we see this already, Nikolai. One of the things we did recently was we have a model for material science, which we used to generate a new novel compound, which we then went and manufactured. We worked with the Pacific National Lab locally here to effectively go reduce the lithium content by 70% in a new battery material and produced it, right? Not just conceptualized it, but simulated it, produced it. And so to me, something where like quantum plus AI, I think can be the ultimate accelerator of science. And we are making progress. So even on quantum, we're taking a very full stack approach. We have our software stack with our Q-sharp, which is our quantum programming stack. So we are excited about sort of the progress we're making on quantum and how it complements AI. And where does the gaming fit into this?

换句话说，您可以简化搜索空间。尼古拉，我们已经看到了这一点。最近我们做的一件事是我们有一个用于材料科学的模型，我们用它来生成一个新的化合物，然后进行制造。我们在当地与太平洋国家实验室合作，成功地将新电池材料中的锂含量减少了70％并生产了它，对吗？不仅仅在概念上，还模拟和生产了它。因此，对我来说，像量子加AI这样的东西可能是科学的终极加速器。我们正取得进展。即使在量子技术上，我们采取了非常全面的方法。我们有我们的软件堆栈与我们的Q-sharp，这是我们的量子编程堆栈。因此，我们对我们在量子技术和它如何与AI相辅相成方面的进展感到兴奋。游戏如何融入这一切？

Yeah, so to me, one of the things, in fact, Microsoft was in gaming long before we were into Windows. In fact, flight simulator, I think, was launched long before Windows was launched. So we are very, very excited, obviously, now with Activision as part of Microsoft, we have mobile gaming, we have cloud gaming, we have console gaming, PC gaming. So we are a full stack game publisher as well as our game systems provider. And so our goal there is one, we're in gaming for our love of gaming, right? So I always sort of say we should never be in businesses as a means to some other end. It has to be an ad. Otherwise, it's not a business. So to me, gaming is something where we want to bring joy of gaming.

是的，对我来说，实际上微软在游戏领域早在我们进入Windows之前就已经存在了。事实上，我认为飞行模拟器是在Windows推出之前推出的。所以很明显，现在我们非常兴奋，因为有了Activision作为微软的一部分，我们拥有移动游戏、云游戏、主机游戏和电脑游戏。所以我们不仅是一个完整的游戏发行商，还是我们的游戏系统提供商。我们的目标是，首先，我们在游戏中是出于对游戏的热爱，对吧？所以我总是说我们不应该把业务当作实现其他目标的手段。它必须是一种附属的。否则，这不是一种业务。对我来说，游戏是一种我们希望带来游戏乐趣的东西。

That's the one pure consumer entertainment category. I love the fact that gaming on a secular basis is probably going to be, if not already, the biggest entertainment category out there. So that's one. And of course, it has real implications on the rest of it, right? If you think about even, remember, it's interesting. I've not talked to Jensen about it, but one of the greatest sort of successes of GPUs was fostered by innovation in gaming, right? DX, which was the Microsoft graphics stack, is what made GPUs an accelerator, right? After all, the GPUs were recreated for PC gaming, you know, gaming, I think, as both an application of AI in terms of game testing. One of the first areas I'm very excited about is games are so complicated right now. One of the things that we want to use AI is to be able to find these bugs in these even closed worlds before they're out there.

这是唯一一个纯粹的消费者娱乐类别。我喜欢游戏作为一个世俗基础可能正在成为，如果还不是的话，最大的娱乐类别之一的事实。当然，这就是其中之一。而且，它对其余部分也有真正的影响，对吗？如果你考虑，记得，这很有趣。我没有和詹森讨论过这个问题，但GPU的最大成功之一是由游戏创新加速的，对吧？微软图形组件DX促进了GPU成为加速器，对吧？毕竟，GPU最初是为PC游戏重新创建的，我认为游戏在游戏测试方面应用AI。我非常兴奋的第一个领域之一是现在的游戏如此复杂。我们想使用AI的一种方式是在它们发布之前能够在这些封闭世界中找到这些错误。

And so therefore, we have some very great use cases there. But beyond that, I think gaming as data in the context of some of the innovation in models, I think is going to be important. Do you game yourself? I'm a, you know, a light gamer. I used to do a lot more of Civ was my favorite game, Age of Empires is another great game that I enjoyed. I wish I could play more, but, you know, from time to time, I slipped into it. You have really changed the culture at Microsoft. When you look back, what do you think are the most important changes you made? Look, I mean, Nicola, I sort of, first of all, I'm, as I said, I've grown up all my professional career for most part is all Microsoft.

因此，我们在这方面有一些非常好的用例。但除此之外，在某些模型创新的背景下，我认为游戏作为数据将变得很重要。你自己游戏吗？我是一个轻度玩家。我以前更多地玩《文明》这款游戏，还有《帝国时代》也是我喜欢的游戏。我希望能够玩得更多，但是，说实话，我偶尔会沉迷其中。你真的改变了微软的文化。回顾过去，你认为自己做出的最重要的改变是什么？嗯，尼古拉，首先，我可以说，我的职业生涯大部分时间都在微软。

So, you know, when you say I've been at Microsoft for 32 years, all the good, the bad, I was part of it, right? So I don't sort of somehow think that I don't represent, I represent all errors of Microsoft. Yeah, which makes it even more incredible that you have made these changes. Yeah. And the way though I came about it is quite frankly, as a consummate insider, I basically pattern matched as to, hey, what were the thing, when were we at our best? What was the cultural set of attributes that helped us succeed? And then when we failed, what are the cultural attributes that caused that failure? And then, you know, dampen this ladder and amplify the former. That was as simple as that.

所以你知道，当你说我在微软工作了32年，所有的好的和坏的，我都参与其中，对吧？所以我不会以某种方式认为我不代表微软的所有错误。是的，这让你能够做出这些改变更加不可思议。是的。而我这么做的方式其实很简单，作为一个资深内部人员，我基本上是根据模式匹配，思考我们什么时候表现最好？是什么文化属性帮助我们成功？然后在失败时，是哪些文化属性导致了失败？然后强化前者，减弱后者。就是这么简单。

So one of the things I look back even in my, you know, career at Microsoft, when we first became the largest market cap company, I forget, I think in the early 2000s, I think we crossed G, you know, people on our campus were walking around, including me thinking, oh, we must be God's gifts to humankind, because we are so brilliant and what have you, except what we needed to be grounded on that day was to say, wow, we now have a real responsibility to reground ourselves to innovate again, so that we are relevant in the future, right? And so that's why I was lucky enough to have read Carol Dweck's book on mindset, which is around child psychology called growth mindset.

在回顾自己的事业时，我发现有一件事情，就是我们在微软初次成为了全球市值最高的公司的时候，我想是在早期的2000年代，我们超过了G公司，当时我们公司的员工，包括我在内，都觉得自己很了不起，认为自己是上帝赐予人类的礼物，因为我们是如此聪明，除此之外，我们需要时刻记得的是，我们现在有责任重新回归现实，再次创新，以使自己在未来依然具有价值，对吧？这就是为什么我很幸运能够阅读卡罗尔·德维克关于心态的书，里面讲的是关于儿童心理学的成长心态。

And I love that book. I read it more in the context of sort of our children's education, but I must say I got educated because I felt like this is what makes individuals, children in school, it's very clear, right? It's better to be a learned all versus a know it all because even if the know it all has great innate capability, the learn it all, you know, even if they start from behind, they will surpass the know it all, right? That's sort of, you know, true for children in school, it's true for CEOs in my seat. It's true for companies.

我喜欢那本书。我在阅读时更多地考虑到我们孩子的教育，但我必须说我也得到了启示，因为我觉得这就是造就个体、学生的东西，这非常明显，对吧？成为一个学无止境的人要比一个只是自以为是的人要好，因为即使那个自以为是的人有很强的先天能力，学无止境的人，你知道，即使他们从相对落后的位置开始，他们也会超过那些自以为是的人，对吧？这对学生来说是真实的，对我这个CEO位置的人也是真实的。对于公司也是如此。

And so we took that approach, Nicole, we said, let's be a learn it all versus a know it all. And the day you say you've achieved that cultural transformation means you're a know it all. So therefore it is a good, a greater sort of say, every day you make a bunch of mistakes, you at least have the courage to acknowledge them and continue on it. And so it's not a destination you ever reach. But how do you get the organization to buy into that? How do you get it to penetrate down towards the permafrost in the organization? It's a beautiful, it's a great point.

因此，我们采取了这种方法，妮可，我们说，让我们成为一个知识积累者而不是一个自以为是者。当你说你已经实现了文化转变的那一天，意味着你是一个自以为是者。因此，这是一个好的，更伟大的说法，每天你都会犯许多错误，但至少你有勇气承认并继续前行。所以这不是你可以达到的目的地。但是，如何让整个组织接受这种理念呢？如何让它渗透到组织的最基层？这是一个很好的观点。

I think the way, I think see the problem of corporations, especially for non-founder companies, founders have great power and great followership and that's why I think they're so successful or at least, you know, at least we only talk about the successful founders. But if you said that class aside for mere mortals like me, it can't be like, okay, new dogma from a new CEO and more corporate speak. It has to appeal to us as human beings. That's why I credit more of this work by Carol and Tim and so on because it's not like, it was not like, I don't think anybody at Microsoft views growth mindset as a Microsoft dogma or definitely not Satya Nadella dogma.

我认为，我认为看待公司的问题的方式，特别是对于非创始人公司而言，创始人拥有巨大的权力和信徒，这就是为什么我认为他们如此成功或至少，你知道，至少我们只谈论成功的创始人。但如果你说，把这些放在一边，对于像我这样的凡人来说，这不能像是，好吧，新CEO的新教条和更多的公司话术。它必须吸引我们作为人类。这就是为什么我更多地归功于卡罗尔、蒂姆等人的工作，因为它不像，它不像，我不认为微软的任何人把成长心态看作是微软的教条或绝对不是萨提亚·纳德拉的教条。

It is something that speaks to them as humans, right? Which is it's good for them as friends, colleagues, partners, parents, neighbors. It integrates work and life. They can bring their own personality and passion to it and benefit from it, right? I always say like, you're not doing, like this Microsoft culture of growth mindset is not for Microsoft, it's for you. And if you should only practice it if you feel like it speaks to your own thriving at Microsoft and in life, that's I think what I attribute it to, right? It wouldn't have taken off if it was just another thing that is a top down slogan.

这是一种谈到他们作为人类的东西，对吧？它对他们来说是好的，作为朋友、同事、合作伙伴、父母、邻居。它整合了工作和生活。他们可以将自己的个性和热情投入其中并从中受益，对吧？我总是说，就像你不是为微软而做，而是为了你自己，这种增长思维文化不是为了微软，而是为了你。如果只有当你觉得它能够帮助自己在微软和生活中茁壮成长时，你才应该练习它，这就是我认为它的核心，对吧？如果它只是另一种自上而下的口号，它是不会走俏的。

I always believe that, which is ultimately people work and find meaning in work only if they can find some true, deeper meaning for themselves. And so that's I think what I've been always trying to invoke. Well, they clearly also have found true, deeper meaning in the concept of empathy because you talked a lot about that and you say that it's key to innovation and leadership and so on. So what do you, why is that? Why is it so important for you?

我始终相信，人们只有在工作中找到一些真正的、更深层的意义时，才能最终工作并为工作寻找意义。因此，我认为我一直在努力唤起这种意义。显然，他们在共情的概念中也找到了真正的、更深层的意义，因为你说了很多关于这个方面，你说它是创新和领导力等方面的关键。那么，你为什么觉得共情如此重要呢？

I think about this as I think most people think of empathy as some kind of a soft skill that's interesting in the context of your family or personal life and works all about hardcore, you know, whatever, right? But I look at that and say again, where does innovation come from, right? Innovation comes from us being able to drive the solutions to unmet unarticulated needs of customers out there, right? So the key being unmet and unarticulated. So that means you have to have a better sense when you're even looking at some log data or, you know, some customer interview data or whatever, you know, it's not just the words that they're saying, but you got to be able to walk in their shoes.

我认为大多数人认为同理心是一种软技能，它在家庭或个人生活中很有趣，但实际上对硬核方面也是非常重要，对吧？但我看到这一点，又会想，创新从何而来呢？创新来自于我们能够驱动解决客户未满足、未被表达的需求，对吧？所以关键在于未满足和未被表达。这意味着当你查看某些日志数据或某些客户访谈数据时，不仅仅是他们说的话，而是你必须能够置身于他们的角度去看待。

And the good news there is this is innate in us all human beings. We have the ability to empathize with the other person. In fact, design thinking is that, right? So when people go and say, let's do learn about design thinking, design thinking is applied empathy. And so to me, that's what I pulled a thread on, which is let's not think of empathy as something that, you know, it's just a soft skill that you reserve for your friends and family. But I think it's at the root of all innovation. It's about being able to meet the unmet unarticulated needs that comes from your unique, I mean, your innate ability to have curiosity to learn about others, walk in their shoes, innovate on their behalf. And that I think is, I think what we have to do. And that's why I think empathy is an important, important skill for all of us.

好消息是，这种能力在我们所有人类中都是与生俱来的。我们有能力同他人产生共情。实际上，设计思维就是这样的吧？所以当人们说，让我们学习设计思维时，设计思维就是应用了共情。对我来说，这就是我一直在思考的，即让我们不要把共情当作一种只在朋友和家人之间保留的软技能。我认为这是所有创新的根本。这是能够满足别人未被表达的需求的能力，来自于你与生俱来的好奇心，学习他人，站在别人的角度思考，为他们创新。我认为这是我们必须做的。这就是为什么我认为共情是我们所有人的一项重要技能。

When did you first discover the power of empathy? I mean, I read your book. Fantastic book. You talk very warmly about your mother. She being very empathetic. Yeah. And, you know, I think that one of the things that I feel like all of us learn how to turn on this bit of empathy through life's experience, right? So in some sense, every day you get confronted with different circumstances, not just yourself personally, but people around you. For me, obviously the birth of my son, for both my wife and me was a life changing event. And it was something that, you know, over the years, I at least learned a lot because I remember in the early days, it was all about sort of my son was born with cerebral palsy passed away a few years ago.

你是什么时候第一次发现共情的力量的？我是说，我读了你的书。太棒了。你非常热情地谈到了你的母亲。她非常有共情心。是的。你知道，我觉得我们每个人在生活经历中都学会了如何启动这种共情的能力，对吧？所以从某种意义上讲，每天你都会面对不同的情况，不仅是你个人，还有你周围的人。对我来说，显然我儿子出生是一个改变生活的事件，对我和妻子来说都是如此。这是一件让我至少学到了很多东西的事，因为我记得在最初的日子里，一切都是关于我的儿子，他患有脑瘫，几年前去世了。

But, you know, in the way, when he was born, it was a lot about what happened to me. I was sort of, you know, essentially quote unquote, you know, in, you know, all about why did this happen to us? Why did it happen to me? And then I realized after watching in some sense, my wife, who was there as a caregiver, as a parent, you know, taking him up and down Seattle to every therapy possible. Quite frankly, you know, it took me years, not, you know, days or months or weeks. And, and then I realized that it nothing had happened to me, but something had happened to my son and I needed to be there for my son. And that is the experience I talk a lot about.

但是，你知道，当他出生的时候，很多事情都是关于我发生的。我在某种程度上，你懂的，基本上可以说是，你知道，全部都是关于为什么这事发生在我们身上的？为什么发生在我身上的？之后，我意识到看着我的妻子，作为一个照顾者、作为一个父母，把他带到西雅图各种可能的治疗中。坦率地说，这让我花了好几年的时间，不是几天、几个月或几周。然后我意识到，发生的事情不是发生在我身上，而是发生在我的儿子身上，我需要在那里支持我的儿子。这就是我经常谈论的经历。

But there's experiences like that every day, right? Some colleague of mine comes with some, you know, parent of theirs who needs care, right? That sort of, you know, I learned from it. I am or at least let me put it this way. I am more attuned to learning from other people's experiences today than I was in the beginning of my career. And I think that happens to all of us, right, which is life's experiences. They were cruel that ability to build a deeper empathy for other people. And that also helps you be a better manager, a better co-worker, a better innovator. Yeah, thanks for sharing.

但是每天都会有类似这样的经历，对吧？我的一些同事会带着需要照顾的父母前来，这种情况对吧？你知道的，我从中学到了东西。至少让我这么说吧，今天我比开始工作时更注重学习他人的经验。我认为这对我们所有人来说都是发生的事情，生活的经历使我们能够更深刻地同情他人。这也有助于你成为一个更好的经理，更好的同事，更好的创新者。是的，谢谢分享。

Do you think there is a contradiction between empathy and execution? I don't, right? I think that at the end of the day, to me, you have to take accountability, right? So this is one of the things that in business, like in life, too, right? You have to be accountable for making real progress. One of the things I think about, why do businesses exist? Businesses exist, at least I like this call-in-may-er definition that you have to create profitable solution to challenges of people and planet.

你认为同理心和执行之间存在矛盾吗？我不这么认为，对吧？我觉得最终，你必须承担责任，对吧？所以在商业中，也是在生活中，对吧？你必须对取得实质进展负责任。我认为的其中一件事是，企业为什么存在？企业存在，至少我喜欢这种说法，是为了为人们和地球的挑战创造可盈利的解决方案。

Because that's at least a good way to allocate the global resources that are available, right? The profit motive is a good motive because it means you're competing and allocating resources in the most efficient ways and face competition. And so therefore you have to have great execution, you have to have great accountability. And so I think of empathy as a necessary condition to create great solutions that are profitable and that are competitive solutions that are winning in the marketplace, as opposed to somehow this being a trade-off. When you look at your skill set and your personality, what do you think it is that makes you so effective as a leader?

因为这至少是一种有效地分配全球可用资源的好方式，对吧？盈利动机是一个好的动机，因为它意味着你在竞争和高效地分配资源，并面对竞争。因此，你必须要有出色的执行力，必须要有出色的责任心。所以我认为同理心是创造有利可图、有竞争力的解决方案的必要条件，这些解决方案在市场上取得成功，而不是某种程度上的一个折中。当你看你的技能和个性时，你认为是什么使你作为一名领导者如此有效？

First of all, I don't think of this as. I don't know I have causality here, well understood because quite frankly, it's so much easier for others to opine on this than or rather. It's just really for others to judge and assign causality there. But the way at least I come at this is I don't start with what am I good at. I am very keenly shaped by what am I not good at? In other words, I'm always looking what can I learn from someone else? So if there's one attribute I have, I don't start each day by thinking, oh, all the stuff I know and I'm good at. I'm like, wow, what am I weak at? Whom do I talk to? Whom do I meet? How do I really shape the colleagues around me who have better skills than me on many fronts? That's what I'm wired.

首先，我不太认同这种观点。我不知道自己在这里有因果关系，因为说实话，对于其他人来说，评述这点要容易得多。判断和归因因果关系真的更适合别人。但至少我看待这个问题的方式是，我并不是从自己擅长的地方开始。我更关注自己不擅长的地方。换句话说，我总是在寻找从他人身上学到什么？所以如果有一点我具备的特质，那就是我每天不是想着自己了解和擅长的知识。而是想着，哇，我在哪些方面表现弱势？我要和谁交谈？我要和谁见面？我如何才能真正塑造身边比我在很多方面技能更好的同事？这就是我的思维方式。

Like, maybe that helps, but I don't know whether that's the causality, but I don't start each day with saying, wow, I'm so good at this, so therefore I'm going to go do this. Now I come at the exact opposite. Is this something you learn from Bill Gates because he said the same thing, right? He's really a learner too. Interesting. I don't know. I mean, it's a good point. Both Bill and Steve, there is a sense of Microsoft. I think that that's an interesting thing. We're going to be 50 years next year. There is what Andy Grove would talk, the paranoid survivor, what have you. And I don't comment it, but though with paranoia, right? I mean, I don't like paranoia. I like this.

可能这样能有所帮助，但我不知道是否是因果关系，但我并不是每天都开始时说，哇，我这么擅长这个，所以我要去做这个。现在我恰恰相反。这是你从比尔·盖茨那里学到的吗，因为他也说过同样的话，对吧？他也真的是一个学习者。有意思。我不知道，我觉得这是个好观点。比尔和史蒂夫，都有一种微软的感觉。我认为这是一件有趣的事情。我们明年就要五十周岁了。正如安迪·格罗夫所说的，对抗恐惧的幸存者等等。虽然我不是很赞同那种恐惧，但我喜欢这种态度。

That's why I go back to my own words for this is that's why the growth mindset or confronting your own fixed mindset, having confidence and wow, what an unbelievable world we live in that every customer can teach me, every partner can teach me, every colleague can teach me like what more can I ask for in life. So it's not paranoia. It's not like, oh, wow, we have to go in every day that if I don't learn something, I'll fail. I'm more about like, what do I learn so that I can innovate? Maybe that's how I come at it. And that's right. Bill and Steve in their own unique way. I'm not that mindset. And so I've grown up around it.

这就是为什么我回到我自己的话语中，因为这就是成长心态或者直面自己固定心态的原因，拥有自信，哇，我们生活在一个令人难以置信的世界中，每位客户都能教给我东西，每位合作伙伴都能教给我东西，每位同事都能教给我东西，这样的生活还有什么可以让我期待的呢。所以这不是偏执，也不是每天都要去追求学习，否则就会失败。我更多地关注的是，我要学习什么，以便创新？也许这就是我的看法。没错，比尔和史蒂夫用他们独特的方式来实现这一点。我不是那样的心态，所以我在这种环境中成长起来了。

And how do you install that kind of I mean, it is humbleness in a way, right? How do you install that in an organization? You know, at the end of the day, you know, humbleness is an interesting word, right? I always say that you need confidence and humility and not hubris, right? Because there is sometimes confidence with humility can allow you to really make great progress, but confidence that translates into hubris can bring, you know, it's the downfall of, you know, civilizations, empires and individuals, right? And from ancient Greece to modern Silicon Valley.

你如何在组织中培养这种谦卑呢？我是说，在某种程度上，谦卑是一种美德，对吧？你知道，说到底，谦卑是一个有趣的词，对吧？我总是说，你需要信心和谦逊，而不是傲慢，对吧？因为有时候，信心和谦逊结合起来可以让你真正取得巨大进步，但信心转化为傲慢会带来，你知道的，文明、帝国和个人的衰落，对吧？从古希腊到现代硅谷。

And so that's why I think you have to sort of really get that calibration that you've got to have some confidence in your own capability. You said in the podcast with a with a little common friend Adam Grant that your father, he had a list of people he met and a list of ideas generated. Have you got a list of people you want to meet? Yeah. Yeah. So I had this, you know, he had this note in his diaries were full of that schema, which is people met ideas generated and tasks completed, which I love, which is a beautiful way each day to keep account of. And absolutely. So that's sort of like I took that to heart. And that's essentially how that's my framework for life as well.

所以我认为你必须真正地获得一个校准，你必须对自己的能力有一些信心。你在与共同朋友亚当·格兰特一起录制的播客中说过，你的父亲有一份他见过的人和发表的想法清单。你有想要见的人的清单吗？是的。是的。所以我有这个，你知道，他的日记里充满了这样的模式，即见过的人、生成的想法和完成的任务，我很喜欢，这是每天保持记录的一个美好的方法。绝对。所以这就像我把它放在了心上。这本质上也是我的生活框架。

Another thing that makes us stand out is, you know, there is a saying, most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people. That's clearly clearly not the case for you. Tell me about your love for poetry. I love poetry, you know, the big is in an interesting way. I got into poetry very late. My mom was a professor of Sanskrit drama. And so she really instilled in me or at least tried to instill in me the love for, you know, poetry and in her case, you know, Sanskrit literature and poetry and what have you. But I think of it as compression. It's the best like when you think about code is as I coded more is when I sort of sort of felt like, wow, poetry is basically a natural language compression. And it is able to describe, you know, it's a model of the world in the most succinct form. And so there's, and I got into Urdu poetry in a big way in my mid thirties. And so I grew up in Hyderabad where obviously Urdu poetry was in the air. And now of course I love it. But even, you know, the American poets, the English romantics, Germans, they're fast.

另一件让我们脱颖而出的事情是，你知道，有句俗语说，大多数人忽视大多数诗歌，因为大多数诗歌忽视大多数人。显然对你来说并非如此。告诉我你对诗歌的热爱吧。我很喜欢诗歌，你知道，这是一种有趣的方式。我很晚才开始接触诗歌。我的妈妈是一位梵文戏剧教授。因此她真的是在我心中灌输了对诗歌的热爱，至少试图这样做。在她的情况下，梵文文学和诗歌等等。但我觉得诗歌是一种压缩。当你考虑代码时，当我编写更多代码时，我就会意识到，诗歌基本上是一种自然语言的压缩。它能够以最简洁的形式描述世界的模样。所以，我在三十多岁的时候非常热爱乌尔都诗歌。我在海德拉巴长大，显然乌尔都诗歌无处不在。现在我当然喜爱它。但即使是美国诗人、英国浪漫主义诗人、德国诗人，他们也很出色。

I mean, like, so I'm at least, I'm not, I wouldn't say I know much poetry, but I at least I'm fascinated by the ability of the human mind to compress thought, whether it's code or poetry. Well, that's fantastic. Last question, Satya, we have tens of thousands of young people listening to this. What is your best advice to young people? I'd say the best, you know, advice for anyone starting out in, I, oh, you know, so it's sort of advice I got, which I paraphrase as never wait for your next job to do your best work, right? Which is one of the things is any job you get, like I don't remember ever at Microsoft feeling like, oh, I have to get a promotion in order to feel more satisfied or more fulfilled because I somehow felt I'd gotten the lottery and I was in the best job I could ever be in.

我的意思是，就像，我至少不会说我懂很多诗歌，但至少我对人类思维压缩思想的能力感到着迷，无论是代码还是诗歌。哇，太棒了。最后一个问题，萨蒂亚，我们有成千上万的年轻人在听这个。你对年轻人有什么最好的建议？我会说，对于任何刚入行的人来说，我得到的最好的建议，我用我自己的话来解释就是永远不要等待下一个工作来展现你的最佳工作，对吧？这就是任何一份工作，就像我在微软工作时从来没有感到过，哦，我必须晋升才能感到更满足或更满足，因为我总觉得我中了彩票，我已经处在我能够达到的最好的工作中。

I'm not saying you shouldn't have ambition, you shouldn't strive for your next promotion, you shouldn't put advocate for yourself or have others, you absolutely should do all that. But at the same time, really, my advice would be also to take the job you have at hand and do an unwonderful, you know, go at it with all of you, the wigger and all of the energy and also define it as broadly as possible, right? I mean, that is perhaps one of the things when I look back at it. I never defined my job narrowly and that I think was both very satisfying in the moment and it helped, I think, land me the next job. And so that is my, perhaps, the one advice I would leave people with. Well, I cannot think of anybody who is doing a better job than you. So big thanks for being in the show. Good luck with everything and, you know, all the best. Thank you so much, Niklai, it was such a pleasure.

我并不是说你不应该有抱负，不应该为下一个晋升而努力，不应该为自己或他人辩护，你当然可以做所有这些。但与此同时，我的建议是，要全力投入到手头的工作中，尽最大努力去做，并尽可能将其定义得更广泛，对吗？我是说，回顾过去可能有一件事是我从未把我的工作局限地太窄，这既在当时带来了极大的满足感，也帮助我获得了下一个工作。所以这或许是我要给大家留下的一条建议。嗯，我想不出有谁比你做得更好了。非常感谢您参加节目。祝一切顺利，一切顺利。非常感谢你，尼古拉，这真是一种快乐。