Professor Shirley Meng: Sodium Ion Batteries // Deep Dive

Welcome back everyone, I'm Jordan Geesege, and this is The Limiting Factor. One of the most promising upcoming battery chemistries is sodium ion, which, thanks to its use of cheap and abundant sodium instead of lithium, should reduce the cost of batteries by 30% or more. But what's often less known about sodium ion batteries is that the United States could be the ideal place to scale the sodium ion industry, because we have the largest reserves of sodium carbonate in the world by orders of magnitude. So to get a better understanding of sodium ion batteries and how the industry is evolving, I reached out to Shirley Mung, who's a chief scientist at Argonne National Laboratory. Let's get into it.

大家好，欢迎回来，我是乔丹·吉尔吉，这里是《制约因素》节目。其中一个最有前途的新型电池化学物质是钠离子，由于采用了廉价且丰富的钠而不是锂，这种电池的成本应该可以降低30%甚至更多。然而，关于钠离子电池的很少人知道的一点是，美国可能是扩大钠离子产业的理想之地，因为我们拥有世界上数量级别最大的碳酸钠储备。为了更好地了解钠离子电池以及产业的发展情况，我与阿贡国家实验室的首席科学家莎丽·蒙取得了联系。让我们开始吧。

Before we begin, a special thanks to my Patreon supporters, YouTube members and Twitter subscribers, as well as RebellionAir.com. They specialize in helping investors manage concentrated positions. RebellionAir can help with covered calls, risk management, and creating a money master plan from your financial first principles. First, thanks for making the time to chat today. It's always a real privilege to talk to you. Pleasure to be here, Jordan. So you hold several positions at UC San Diego, UC San Diego, University of Chicago, and Argonne National Laboratory. Did you walk us through how those roles intersect with sodium ion batteries? Of course, yeah. I'm like a delocalized electron. All these places at the same time. Yeah, so I spent 12 years as a professor in University of California, San Diego, until 2021. And in fact, the majority of the basis of sodium battery research in my group was built in UC San Diego. About two years ago, I took the job at the University of Chicago at the same time, served as the chief scientist for Argonne National Labs Collaborative Center for Energy Storage Science. So the goal is that to move the research for sodium battery research, battery-related materials and electrolyte and systems to a bigger scale. And I certainly hope in the near future that there will be no more details of the plan that will be reviewed. But it's precisely because the University of Chicago and Argonne National Laboratory will provide a bigger platform where we can accelerate the research for sodium batteries. That is one of the reasons that I moved from San Diego to Chicago.

在我们开始之前，特别感谢我的Patreon支持者、YouTube会员和Twitter订阅者，以及RebellionAir.com。他们专门帮助投资者管理集中持仓。RebellionAir可以帮助您进行Covered Calls、风险管理，并从您的财务第一原则创建一个金钱大师计划。首先感谢您今天抽出时间和我聊天。和您交谈总是一种特权。很高兴能在这里，乔丹。那么，您在加州大学圣地亚哥分校、芝加哥大学和阿贡国家实验室担任几个职位。您能向我们介绍这些角色如何与钠离子电池交集吗？当然，我就像一个离域的电子，同时出现在所有这些地方。是的，我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校担任教授长达12年，直到2021年。实际上，我在UC San Diego的研究小组中建立了大部分钠电池研究的基础。大约两年前，我同时在芝加哥大学担任职务，担任阿贡国家实验室能源存储科学合作中心的首席科学家。因此，目标是将钠电池研究、电池相关材料和电解质以及系统研究推向更大的规模。我确实希望在不久的将来会有更多有关计划的细节被审查。但正是因为芝加哥大学和阿贡国家实验室将为我们提供一个更大的平台，我们可以加速钠电池的研究。这就是我从圣地亚哥搬到芝加哥的原因之一。

Okay, and what's driving that? Is this, have University of Chicago and UC San Diego? Is this two independently have decided to do this? Or is this being orchestrated more broadly by the Department of Energy or something like that? So earlier in the days, for example, 2010, when I received the National Science Foundation Career Award, I wrote the proposal about sodium batteries in 2010. And yeah, at that time, the topic was not mainstream and a lot of people were doubtful about the impact of sodium batteries. Yeah, so after 10 years, I'm confident to say, you know, we also spin out to the company Unigred. I think later we'll dive deeper into what Unigred is doing. But right now, I would say that probably it's because the work we are doing in UCSD are recognized by many researchers in the world or even the Department of Energy. I think people seeing there is a real potential impact for the sodium batteries to scale and to, you know, enter both the mobility and stationary storage. Yeah, so I think it's not exactly synchronized, but I always believe in destiny. So I think in the first 12 years of hard work, now we can really try to do something at scale. That's fantastic. So you're really ahead of the curve on that. So could you walk us through the strengths and weaknesses of sodium ion as a chemistry? Of course, yeah. So let me speak off a little bit of history of sodium batteries. I think a lot of people don't recognize that before lithium ion we have sodium ion batteries. Actually the 1960s, you know, when the whole world was experiencing oil in Bago and the battery research, that time French scientists, actually a lot of them were working on sodium ion batteries. One of the most well recognized one is Professor Claude Demas from University of Bordeaux. In fact, he's early thesis in the 1960s. It's all on the layered oxide for sodium intercalation. And in fact, you know, maybe the thesis was not digitized. A lot of people didn't have a chance to read it, but I had the pleasure actually visiting Professor Demas back in 2005 before I decided to go again to do sodium batteries. I want people to recognize that, you know, at that time we did not succeed in making sodium ion batteries. And then lithium actually overtakes, you know, starting 70s, Professor Weitingham published this lithium metal with titanium disulfide. And suddenly the whole world recognized the potential of lithium ion batteries. Sodium ion batteries were actually around for a very long time. And from 1990s to 2010, there were almost no research funding in the area of sodium batteries.

好的，那是什么推动了这一切？这是由芝加哥大学和加利福尼亚大学圣迭戈分校共同决定做的吗？还是独立决定的？还是由能源部门之类的更广泛组织进行策划的？例如，比如在2010年我获得国家科学基金会职业奖时，我就写了关于2010年钠电池的提案。当时，这个话题并不流行，很多人对钠电池的影响持怀疑态度。是的，所以经过10年，我可以自信地说，我们也拉出了Unigred这家公司。我想以后我们会更深入地探讨Unigred正在做什么。但现在，我想说可能是因为我们在加州大学圣地亚哥分校所做的工作得到了世界许多研究人员甚至能源部门的认可。我认为人们看到钠电池有真正的潜在影响力，可以扩大规模，并且进入移动和静止储能领域。所以我认为这并不完全同步，但我始终相信命运。所以我认为在前面的12年努力之后，现在我们真的可以尝试大规模做些事情。那太棒了。你确实是领先于潮流的。那么，您能详细解释一下钠离子作为一种化学品的优势和劣势吗？当然可以。让我稍微说一下钠电池的历史。很多人不知道，在锂离子电池之前，我们有钠离子电池。实际上，在1960年代，当整个世界都在经历石油危机和电池研究的时候，法国科学家们当时很多人都在研究钠离子电池。其中最著名的一个就是波尔多大学的克劳德·戴马斯教授。事实上，他在1960年代早期的论文就是关于钠层状氧化物的插层作用。实际上可能这篇论文并没有数字化，许多人没有机会阅读，但我很荣幸在2005年决定再次研究钠电池之前，有过拜访戴马斯教授的经历。我想让人们认识到，当时我们并没有成功制造出钠离子电池。随后锂开始领先，在70年代，韦廷汉教授发表了有关锂金属和二硫化钛的论文。突然之间全世界意识到了锂离子电池的潜力。钠离子电池其实已经存在了很长时间。从1990年代到2010年，几乎没有钠电池领域的研究资金。

Yeah, so let's talk about the strength and the weakness. So the strength for sodium batteries, I think in the group one of periodic table, I think everybody knows hydrogen, lithium, and below lithium is sodium. Yeah, so sodium is a bigger ion. Actually, the abundance of sodium is magnitude higher than lithium. So a lot of the sodium ash deposits are widely available in the United States. And the distribution of the sodium is also less sparsely distributed like lithium. So I think sodium's biggest strength is its abundance. The second strength, I think people, it's a bit counterintuitive because a bigger ion, people always think the ions will move slowly. It is absolutely not true. And I can give a whole class about why actually sodium ions can have a very high mobility because of the way how its electronic structure is and how it is arranged in the intercalation compounds. So typically lithium, the oxide will be more closely packed but if you have sodium in it, actually the oxide will be less closely packed. It will be more loosely packed. So the diffusion channels for the sodium will be much bigger. So sodium actually can move really, really quickly. So I think that's actually to me, the second strength for sodium is that it can really enable fast charging and the fastest charge. It can be a very powerful battery. And then the weakness, I think sodium, unfortunately, it's the standard electrochemical potential is slightly lower than that of lithium. So typically voltage is not that at this for four volt range. And sodium also suffers a little bit because it is a bigger ion. So it occupies more space. Volumetric energy density is lower. But later we can talk about how can we actually make sodium batteries same energy density as the graphite LFP. I think many calculations have shown that it can be achieved. So given the sodium's weakness of lower energy density and a little bit lower potential, I think the only possibility for sodium to compete, I wouldn't say compete to complement what lithium can do. Probably we should really focus on the really super long cycle life. I think that's something sodium battery field we have to figure out how we make the case for users instead of choosing LFP, you're going to choose sodium batteries. Yeah.

是的，让我们谈谈钠电池的优势和劣势。对于钠电池的优势，我认为在元素周期表中的第一组，大家都知道氢、锂，锂下面是钠。是的，钠是一个更大的离子。事实上，钠的丰度比锂高得多。因此，在美国大量的钠矿床都是广泛可用的。而且钠的分布也不像锂那样稀疏。所以我认为钠最大的优势就是它的丰度。第二个优势，我认为可能有点违反直觉，因为人们总是认为大一些的离子移动会慢。这绝对不是真的。我可以给出一个整个课程来解释为什么钠离子实际上可以具有非常高的迁移性，这是由于其电子结构的方式以及其在插层化合物中排列的方式。通常来说，锂的氧化物会更加紧密地堆积，但是如果你在里面加入钠，事实上氧化物的堆积会更松散。因此，钠的扩散通道会更大。所以钠实际上可以移动非常非常快。所以我认为钠的第二个优势实际上是它可以实现快速充电和最快的充电。钠可以成为一种非常强大的电池。至于劣势，我认为不幸的是，钠的标准电化学电位略低于锂。通常的电压不会达到四伏特。而且因为钠是一个更大的离子，它占据更多的空间。体积能量密度较低。但是后面我们可以讨论一下如何让钠电池能够与石墨磷酸铁锂电池具有相同的能量密度。我认为很多计算已经表明这是可以实现的。考虑到钠的能量密度较低和电位略低的劣势，我认为唯一的可能性是让钠与锂互补。也许我们应该真正关注超长循环寿命。我认为这是钠电池领域必须想出的解决方案，让用户选择钠电池而不是锂磷酸铁锂电池。是的。

Now, one thing that I've seen mentioned previously is that the round trip efficiency might not be as good. Is that just because, is that actually the case? And is that something that will just be resolved as the technology matures? Yeah. So I think that because there's a gap of 20 years of lacking of research or activities in sodium, yeah, so in the old days, yes, the round trip efficiency or the voltage efficiency may not be great, but I do think that we made a lot of progress already. Today, I think the efficiencies can be as good as that of lithium ion if you kind of make the cells as good quality as of the lithium batteries. And also, I would say the variety of the sodium materials is still lacking. You know, unlike lithium, you have LFP, LNMO, NMC, LCO. Yeah. So in the sodium, the cast of the materials choices are very limited. And then for a while, a lot of people were studying so-called Persian blue or Persian white type of intercalation materials. Those energy density and round trip efficiencies are not as good as layered oxide. I think nowadays the layered oxide and also the French group, the company TMR, specialized in vanadium phosphate, multi-valent NIN, cathode. And those are having excellent, excellent round trip efficiencies and the voltage efficiencies.

现在，我之前见过一件事，就是往返效率可能不太好。这是因为，这确实是这样吗？这是一种随着技术成熟而解决的问题吗？是的。我认为，因为在钠方面缺乏了20年的研究或活动，是的，在过去，往返效率或电压效率可能不那么好，但我认为我们已经取得了很大进步。今天，我认为效率可以和锂离子电池一样好，只要将电池质量做得和锂电池一样好。而且，我要说的是，钠材料的种类仍然不够多。你知道，不像锂电池，你有磷酸铁锂，锂镍锰钴氧化物，镍锰钴酸锂，钴酸锂。是的。所以在钠方面，材料选择的种类非常有限。而且有一段时间很多人在研究所谓的波斯蓝或波斯白类型的插层材料。这些能量密度和往返效率不如层状氧化物。我认为现在层状氧化物和法国的TMR公司专门从事钒磷酸盐，多价阳离子氮，阴极材料方面。这些具有很好的往返效率和电压效率。

What's the current state of sodium ion battery chemistry in terms of technology readiness level? Is this mostly a solved problem or when can we expect to see sodium ion batteries really hitting the market and scale? Yeah. That's a really good question. And I think from what I know, the activity is happening in China. The layered technology readiness level is very high. I'm talking about seven, eight, you know, and already trying to scale from megawatt hour to gigawatt hour is being planned and probably in process as being executed. I think the downside of this very quick commercialization is that when I look at the current chemistry, they're using hard carbon and then a kind of layered oxide that is using similar precursors that are coming from the lithium. So as you know, NMC or the lithium materials use the co-precipitation method making layered oxide. So they are trying to leverage the infrastructure that's built for all the lithium intercalation compounds to make the sodium intercalation compounds. So when you combine these two, the challenge is of course some of those castled materials have very slopey, like you know, quickly decline voltage curve and then combining with the hard carbon is extremely fluffy, you know, low volumetric energy density. So the overall energy density of the sodium ion batteries that generation one that China is releasing to the market will only be suitable for very low end immobility and very, you know, maybe it's stationary storage that you don't need a lot of energy density requirement. So for that generation one, I think it's ready. It's commercially ready and we heard through the grapevine that probably gigawatt scale already being executed in China.

目前钠离子电池化学技术的技术准备水平如何？这主要是一个已解决的问题还是我们何时可以预期看到钠离子电池真正进入市场并扩大规模？是的，这是一个非常好的问题。从我所知道的情况来看，这方面的活动主要发生在中国。分层技术准备水平非常高。我说的是七、八的水平，已经在从兆瓦小时向吉瓦小时的扩展规划中，可能正在实施中。我认为这种非常快速的商业化的缺点是，当我看到当前的化学品时，它们使用硬碳和一种类似锂的前体的层状氧化物。正如你所知，NMC或锂材料使用共沉淀法制备层状氧化物。因此，他们正在利用已建立的基础设施，用于所有锂插层化合物来制备钠插层化合物。当你将这两种结合在一起时，挑战当然是其中一些已知的材料有非常陡峭的电压曲线下降，再加上硬碳是非常蓬松的，能量密度很低。因此，中国正在向市场推出的第一代钠离子电池的总能量密度只适用于非常低端移动性和可能是不需要很高能量密度要求的静态存储。对于第一代产品，我认为它是准备就绪的，商业上已准备好，并我们听说可能在中国已经开始实施吉瓦规模。

In other parts of the world, I would say that there's this constraint about resources, you know, how much effort you put on lithium productions versus sodium. So I think that, you know, we're still seeing, in my opinion, two little activities in both Europe and the North America about the sodium battery research because most of the effort and most of the resources are poured into how we secure our lithium battery supplies first. So I would say, unfortunately, you know, today you can still cannot buy it on the market, right? For the sodium batteries in the US particularly, I hope in the next two years or three years, the situation will be changed. Yeah, I'm optimistic about it. All right, so in your view, there's no real showstoppers for sodium ion batteries. It's just a matter of shifting investment and resources to sodium ion batteries to really start scaling it. I think there is a showstopper. The real showstopper is that we decided that we are not going for energy transition. Yeah, so I mean, let me be more serious about it. The showstopper right now is the crash and mineral price of nickel and the lithium. All the companies who are betting on the sodium batteries, the investment companies are betting on the ever rising price of lithium and the nickel.

在世界其他地方，我会说资源方面存在一定的限制，你知道，你在锂生产和钠生产上投入了多少努力。所以我认为，在我看来，欧洲和北美关于钠电池研究的活动还太少，因为大部分的努力和资源都流入了如何首先保障我们的锂电池供应。所以我要说，不幸的是，你今天仍然无法在市场上购买到钠电池，对吗？特别是在美国，我希望在未来两三年，情况会有所改变。是的，我对此持乐观态度。好吧，据你看来，钠离子电池没有真正的障碍。只是要将投资和资源转向钠离子电池，才能真正开始规模化生产。我认为存在障碍。真正的障碍是我们决定不进行能源转型。是的，所以我是说，让我更加认真地谈谈。目前的真正障碍是镍和锂的价格暴跌。所有那些押注于钠电池的公司，投资公司都在押注锂和镍的价格将会持续上涨。

I think that's understandable, but probably not the most strategic approach because the two drivers for sodium should be the security of supply chain. And as we build those machinery for gigafactories, for making of precursors solid cast on materials, those infrastructure, once you build, ideally, you should be switching between the chemistry. So how wonderful it is that you could actually do lithium when the supplies are there, when you do sodium, when the supply of materials are there. So then the factories can run 24.7. As you know, we draw them, we already did the Tesla's master plan, and my own group's number is the same. The whole world will need 200 to 300 terawatt hour batteries to secure the energy transition. That's given if hydrogen is successful, hydrogen have to come to successful. And even that, we will need a couple hundred terawatt hour battery. And today, we only have two terawatt hour production capacities. So when we look at this picture, the major driver for me is that a lot of places will have to build infrastructure for building batteries. Regardless, is the lithium chemistry or sodium chemistry.

我认为这是可以理解的，但也许不是最具战略意义的方法，因为钠的两个驱动因素应该是供应链安全。在我们建造用于千兆工厂的设备、用于制造前体固体铸造材料的设备时，一旦建成，理想情况下应该在化学上进行切换。这样，当材料供应充足时，你就可以使用锂，当材料供应充足时，就转用钠。这样工厂就可以24小时7天运行。正如你所知，我们已经制定了特斯拉的总体计划，在我自己的团队的数字是一样的。全世界将需要200至300太瓦时的电池来确保能源转型。这是基于如果氢能取得成功，氢能必须取得成功。即使是这样，我们也需要几百太瓦时的电池。而今天，我们只有两太瓦时的生产能力。因此，当我们看到这个画面时，对我来说，最主要的驱动因素是很多地方将不得不建设用于制造电池的基础设施。无论是锂化学还是钠化学。

And it's wonderful if we can have a very robust supply chain of the different chemistries and utilizing similar manufacturing facilities to build those batteries. And I think that the recycling facility should be similar, like we should be able to be very versatile towards what materials we're working on, because they are all layered oxides, they are all alkalimatose. I think there's a lot of similarities there. And how far would you say the US is behind China and other countries with sodium ion chemistries? I think it's particularly important for the US because we're so dependent on China's supply chain for lithium ion batteries. It's something that we should really be pushing as hard as possible to diversify and create stability. So how far behind would you say we are and what are we doing to grow the sodium ion battery supply chain here? Yeah, I have to say when I was graduating from MIT 2005, China was learning from us in US. So I've been in this field so long. So I think it's about persistency and the willingness to invest the time and the resources. It's not far at all where behind.

如果我们能建立起一个非常强大的各种化学体系的供应链，并利用类似的制造设施来制造这些电池，那将是非常好的。我认为回收设施也应该类似，我们应该能够非常灵活地处理我们正在处理的材料，因为它们都是层状氧化物，它们都是碱金属。我认为这里有很多相似之处。您认为美国在钠离子化学品上落后于中国和其他国家有多远？我认为这对美国特别重要，因为我们在锂离子电池的供应链上如此依赖中国。这是我们应该尽可能努力去实现多样化和稳定性的事情。那么您认为我们落后多少，并且我们在这里发展钠离子电池供应链做了些什么呢？是的，我不得不说当我2005年从麻省理工学院毕业的时候，中国正在向我们美国学习。所以我在这个领域已经很久了。所以我认为这关乎坚持不懈和愿意投入时间和资源。我们在这方面并不远落后。

However, it's this consistent instead of looking inwards, we're always looking for reasons why we didn't do well because China blah, blah, blah, and I was always saying, why do we examine inwards? What could we do better to catch up? So I think the timeline, number one, is the lack of patience from many large companies is concerning because they all wanted to in two to three years to completely turn around the ship. I think that's unrealistic. There's a reason why Japan, South Korea, and China are leading because their company and the government takes decades to position themselves as the world leaders. And I think the determination here is that, okay, 20 years later, can you imagine in 2040, 2045, who will be the leader? Because for me, the game is just starting.

然而，我们经常不是自我检讨，而是总是寻找我们做得不好的原因，因为中国这样那样的理由，我总是说，为什么我们不自我反省呢？我们能做些什么来迎头赶上呢？因此，我认为第一条时间表的关键问题是许多大公司缺乏耐心，因为他们都希望在两到三年内彻底扭转局面。我认为这是不现实的。日本、韩国和中国之所以居于领先地位，是因为它们的公司和政府花费数十年的时间来奠定自己作为世界领袖的地位。我认为这里的决心是，在20年后，你能想象到2040年、2045年，谁将成为领导者吗？因为对我来说，游戏刚刚开始。

So if I think about, I need 200 terawatt-hour, right now the whole world have three terawatt-hour batteries, we are less than 2% complete. And then the rest of 98% who are going to be the big players and who will be the winner? And I think there will be many winners if people just focus on how to get things executed and how do we every time hit the milestones and the KPIs and to move the, you know, move forward instead of always thinking about, oh, what happened to China? What did we do wrong? I think it's a very frustrating for me to see so many kind of resources, the energy putting on how we kind of prevent, I would say, that interaction with China instead of thinking about how can we do better? How can we push the field forward? And then, you know, it should be a friendly competition. You know, the real competition is with oil and gas, right? We are all trying to do the right things to utilize more renewables and to make battery itself more sustainable and more lower carbon footprint. And all of us know based on the numbers from Asia, this is the area we can all improve.

所以如果我考虑一下，我现在需要200太瓦时的能源，全世界目前只有三太瓦时的电池，我们完成不到2%。那剩下的98%将会成为大玩家，谁会是赢家呢？我认为如果人们只专注于如何执行和如何每次达到里程碑和关键绩效指标，以推动前进，而不总是想着“中国发生了什么？我们做错了什么？” 我认为看到这么多资源和能源被用于如何“预防”与中国的互动，而不是考虑怎样才能做得更好，怎样推动该领域向前发展，是让我感到非常沮丧的。然后，你知道，这应该是友好的竞争。真正的竞争是与石油和天然气竞争，对吧？我们都在努力做正确的事情，更多地利用可再生能源，并使电池本身更可持续，减少碳足迹。所有人都知道基于亚洲的数据，这是我们都可以改进的领域。

So when you have a sodium batteries or you have a solid state batteries, these are all golden opportunities for us to think about the manufacturing process, the robust supply chains. So I would really like to say that the game is still on, you know, think about energy transition by 2050. We have 27 years left. Long game. Yeah, I hope people realize that it's a marathon. It's not 100 meters sprint we're doing here. Yeah, a lot of people that I've interacted with or talked to that they think this is going to happen in about five to 10 years. But this is something that we still have plenty of time to tackle this. We just need to engage the problem rather than taking a more defensive approach. Absolutely. Yeah. Well said. All right. All right. So what I'll do now, I'm going to shift into some more technical questions. I don't know if you have the answers to these, but there's things that have been playing on my mind. Just because I have a fascination with things to do with the supply chain.

所以，当你拥有钠电池或固态电池时，这些都是我们考虑制造过程和稳健供应链的绝佳机会。我真的很想说，游戏还在继续，你知道，考虑到2050年的能源转变。我们还有27年的时间。这是一个长期的游戏。是的，我希望人们意识到这是一场马拉松比赛，而不是100米短跑。很多我接触或交谈过的人认为这将在五到十年内发生。但我们仍有足够的时间来解决这个问题。我们只需要积极应对问题，而不是采取更防御性的态度。完全正确。说得好。好的，现在我将转入一些更技术性的问题。我不知道你是否有这些问题的答案，但这些问题一直让我念念不忘，因为我对与供应链有关的事物非常着迷。

So first off, is sodium cheaper to refine than battery grade lithium? That's absolutely right. Yeah, because the sodium are present in the format of carbonate and hydroxide readily, you don't need to concentrate too much in some sodium ash deposits in the United States. Yeah, so I think that the price, if you look at the metric town price, there's three magnitude order differences in price for the lithium versus sodium precursor.

首先，与电池级锂相比，提炼钠更便宜吗？那绝对是正确的。是的，因为钠以碳酸盐和氢氧化物的形式存在，你不需要在美国的某些钠灰矿床中过多浓缩。是的，所以我认为，如果你看一下公制吨价格，锂和钠前体之间的价格差异在三个数量级上。

On that note, well, when we move along to from processing the sodium to actually making the cathode that goes into the battery cells, manufacturing high nickel lithium cathode material is notoriously difficult, is my understanding, because it's very reactive. Would sodium on cathode material be easier to manufacture and work with? Yes, and no, I think the no part is really because the quality of the cathode still have to be very high because the battery will be operated around like three to four between three to 3.6 volt. So still, it's way above where most of the stability of the liquid electrolytes.

在这一点上，嗯，当我们从处理钠转移到实际制造进入电池电芯的阴极时，生产高镍锂阴极材料是极其困难的，就我所了解，因为它非常容易反应。那么在阴极材料上使用钠会更容易制造和使用吗？是的和不是，我认为不是的部分主要是因为阴极的质量仍然必须非常高，因为电池将在3至3.6伏之间运行。因此，这仍然远远超过大多数液体电解质的稳定范围。

So I think the quality control still is important. But no, I mean that we really don't need the sodium cobalt oxide. Nobody will need to use cobalt, a lot of cobalt in the sodium intercalation materials. We may need to use a little bit of nickel, but I think the main trend is to use cathode without the cobalt or nickel so that we can actually really eliminate this supply chain constraints for the sodium batteries. Yeah, and I want to say, yeah, sodium batteries also don't use copper current collector.

所以我认为质量控制仍然很重要。但是，我是说我们真的不需要氧化钴钠。在钠插层材料中，没人需要使用钴，大量的钴。我们可能需要使用一点镍，但我认为主要趋势是使用没有钴或镍的正极，这样我们实际上可以真正消除钠电池的供应链约束。是的，我想说的是，钠电池也不使用铜导流板。

Yeah, because sodium does not alloy with aluminum in the low potential. So both electrodes will be our aluminum current collector. So everything that goes into the battery cell is going to be dirt cheap. Everything that you use in is going to be highly available and relative to lithium ion batteries.

是的，因为钠在低电位下与铝不会合金化。因此，两个电极都将是我们的铝电流集电体。因此，进入电池单元的一切都将是非常便宜的。你所使用的一切都将是非常容易得到的，相对于锂离子电池而言。

Yeah, I think the quality control is still needed. And then the electrolyte is the key. In fact, the electrolyte for sodium, you know, it still needs to be very dry, just like lithium because the potential is still way above the water decomposition voltage. So I think electrolyte is still quite important.

是的，我认为质量控制仍然是必要的。然后电解液是关键。事实上，就钠而言，你知道，它仍然需要非常干燥的电解液，就像锂一样，因为电位仍然远高于水分解电压。所以我认为电解液仍然非常重要。

Now you've mentioned power, charging speed, and discharging speed for sodium ion a few times. And I'll take a moment here to digress here a little bit because I'm curious about that. What kind of charge rates can you expect for sodium ion batteries as opposed to lithium ion batteries? I think here we're really talking about the dreams about five to six minutes charging discharging.

现在你提到了钠离子的功率、充电速度和放电速度好几次了。我要在这里稍微偏离一下话题，因为我对此很感兴趣。与锂离子电池相比，你可以期待什么样的充电速度呢？我想这里我们确实在谈论梦想般的五到六分钟充电和放电。

Yeah, so 15 to 20 CE kind of power capabilities. Yeah, I can explain a little bit because the electrolyte used in the sodium is different from lithium. Yeah, so you have a different solvent and the salvation structure of the sort is different. And I hope people will actually study more interesting science in this area and realizing that that salvation architecture change will change the way how sodium ion is transported to the through electrolyte. And then particularly from the electrolyte to electrode interface.

是的，所以15到20世纪的功率能力。是的，我可以解释一下，因为钠电解液与锂电解液不同。是的，所以你有一个不同的溶剂和不同的离子结构。希望人们会在这个领域研究更有趣的科学，并意识到溶剂结构的改变将改变钠离子传输的方式，特别是从电解液到电极界面。

We found that really fascinating evidence about how that process is very different from that of lithium. And the other important thing I already mentioned in the solid state that cathode can actually enable much faster rate because the structure of sodium interplation compounds allows sodium to be in the so-called prismatic side. I think we did the video about the lithium where the lithium sits in the octahedral side of the oxides. So if your oxides are packed more loosely, you're going to open up so-called prismatic side for ion intercalation. And that ion when they move, there's almost no activation barrier.

我们发现了关于这个过程与锂的过程有很大不同的非常迷人的证据。另一个重要的事情是，正如我之前提到的，在固态中，阴极实际上可以实现更快的速率，因为钠插层化合物的结构允许钠处于所谓的棱柱侧。我认为我们在关于锂的视频中讨论过，锂位于氧化物的八面体侧。因此，如果你的氧化物包装更松散，你会打开所谓的棱柱侧以进行离子插层。当这些离子移动时，几乎没有激活能障碍。

So you can make batteries fast charging and it can make batteries operate at a very low temperature. And those are all possibilities. All right, so you're giving me ideas for future videos now. So just to make sure I have this clear, so when I start following up, I'm asking the right questions. So there's a few reasons why sodium ion batteries have faster charge and discharge capabilities. One is the way that they're packed into the cathode crystal structure.

这样，你可以使电池快速充电，同时使电池能在极低温下运行。这些都是可能的情况。好的，那现在你给我未来视频的创意了。所以我要确认一下，当我开始展开调查时，问对问题。钠离子电池具有更快的充放电能力有几个原因。其中之一是它们被打包进阴极晶体结构的方式。

And another is the solvent that's used in the electrolyte. The solvation works differently so it can happen more rapidly. Are those two correct so far? Yes, that's in my knowledge. I think these are the two key enabling factors.

另一个因素是电解质中使用的溶剂。溶解作用不同，因此可以更快地发生。到目前为止这两个是正确的吗？ 是的，就我所知。我认为这两个是关键的推动因素。

Now, and this brings us to the anode side of things. Does the anode also play a role? Because my understanding is that sodium ion batteries don't use graphite, they use something else. So does that play a role and could you talk about what that material is? Explaining a little bit of why it didn't work in the graphite for some of the electrolytes.

现在，这让我们来谈谈阳极方面的事情。阳极也起到作用吗？因为我的理解是钠离子电池不使用石墨，而是使用其他材料。那是否起到作用，你能谈谈那种材料是什么吗？解释一下为什么在一些电解液中石墨不起作用的原因。

Okay, so the way how carbonate electrolyte work with lithium is when it touches the graphite surface, the lithium is going to de-sovate from the carbonate and the carbonate elements will go through some decomposition process and form so-called SEI on the graphite interface. And I think we had a lot of prior explanation of how the SEI works. Now, this whole process didn't work for sodium. The first of all is this disservation did not happen properly. If you just use carbonate with graphite using so-called sodium PF6 salts, it didn't work that well.

好的，碳酸盐电解质与锂的作用方式是当它接触到石墨表面时，锂会从碳酸盐中脱溶出来，碳酸盐元素会经过一些分解过程并在石墨界面上形成所谓的SEI。我认为我们之前对SEI如何起作用有很多解释。现在，这整个过程对钠来说并不起作用。首先是这种脱溶并没有很好地发生。如果你只是用碳酸盐与石墨结合使用所谓的钠PF6盐，效果就不是那么好。

So the sodium actually cannot de-sovate from electrolyte and go into the graphite. And this is one of the reasons. But if you change to other solvent, actually sodium can integrate into graphite. So never say, you know, sodium is too big to integrate into graphite because potassium actually have no problem to intercalate into graphite. If you make a potassium batteries, potassium ion batteries, you still use graphite as the anode. You can use graphite.

因此，钠实际上不能从电解质中脱离并进入石墨。这是其中一个原因。但如果换成其他溶剂，钠实际上可以融入石墨。所以永远不要说，你知道，钠太大无法融入石墨，因为钾实际上没有问题插层进入石墨。如果制造钾电池，钾离子电池，你仍然可以使用石墨作为阳极。你可以使用石墨。

So this is really the magical role of what we call the solvation desorvation from iron from electrolyte into the electrodes. Hot carbon is used because the convenience, you know, like a hot carbon is very easy to source. And it's basically we call it hot carbon because it's basically disordered carbon. And then the problem with hot carbon, people put one gram of graphite and one gram of hot carbon. Like the volume difference would be huge because hot carbon disordered the carbon. It's really fluffy materials. So that actually severely limits the volume metric energy density of sodium ion batteries if people use hot carbon.

因此，这就是我们所说的溶解脱附作用在钢铁中从电解质进入电极的神奇作用。热碳被使用是因为它很方便，你知道，像热碳很容易获得。我们基本上称之为热碳，因为它基本上是无序碳。然后，使用热碳的问题是，人们会把一克石墨和一克热碳放在一起。体积差异会很大，因为热碳使碳无序。它实际上是一种蓬松的材料。因此，如果人们使用热碳，这实际上会严重限制钠离子电池的体积能量密度。

Yeah. And then up to today, there's still debate about exactly what's the mechanism for sodium versus hot carbon. How sodium entered the hot carbon? I think there's a lot of studies have shown that sodium does intercalate into the hot carbon. And it can be reversed a little bit more visible. So I think the only problem is that hot carbon is really very poor volumetric energy density. It occupies a lot of volume and then hosts it. Not a lot of sodium. All right.

是的。直到今天，关于钠和热碳之间的机制仍然存在争论。钠是如何进入热碳中的？我认为很多研究表明钠确实可以插入到热碳中。而且这是可以逆转的，更容易观察到。所以我认为唯一的问题就是热碳的容积能量密度实在是很低。它占据很大的体积，但只能容纳很少的钠。好的。

And so when you're talking about this, that disordered carbon structure, I'll just explain that real quick as I understand it. Graphite, it's stacked in nice sheets and nice layers. Whereas hard carbon, it's tangled up. You still have those sheets, but it's just like a mess. It's like somebody. You have the sheets, but they are much smaller domains. They break up and they align. Yeah, you're right. A mess when they align. Okay. And that has a slightly different voltage too, doesn't it? Hard carbon? Is it slightly different voltage potential?

所以当你谈论这个无序的碳结构时，我会简单解释一下我的理解。石墨是叠在一起的结构，很整齐。而硬质碳就会被缠在一起。虽然仍然有那些结构，但就像一团乱麻。就像是某个人。你有那些结构，但它们是更小的区域。它们会分开然后对齐。没错。当它们对齐时就像一团乱麻。嗯。并且也会有轻微不同的电压，对吧？硬质碳？电压电位会稍有不同吗？

Okay. Voltage potential different. And then you won't see these nice staging compounds in the lithium graphite case. Yeah. So yeah, I think the mechanism is indeed quite different. And yeah, I think a hot carbon, although yeah, it does work quite well. So the first generation product, I think that there's no doubt how the carbon will be the first generation anode for some of the batteries. And what's because graphite, you can make that from a needle coke or you can get it naturally in the environment.

好的。电压电势不同。然后在锂石墨情况下，你就不会看到这些漂亮的分阶化合物。是的。所以我认为机理确实是相当不同的。虽然热碳似乎是有效的。所以第一代产品，我想毫无疑问石墨将成为一些电池的第一代阳极。因为石墨可以通过针状焦或在环境中自然形成。

What is hard carbon usually made from? Oh, so hard carbon, one of the reasons it's so popular is the source of hard carbon is very broad. Yeah, sometimes people always say you can use coconut shell to make a hard carbon, it's possible. Yeah, but the carbon process making the hard carbon is still high temperature and it's pretty environmentally, you know, you make a lot of powder, a lot of, yeah, so I do think that the process of making graphite probably consumes more energy even, hard carbon may be slightly better.

通常，硬质碳通常是由什么制成的？哦，所以硬碳之所以如此受欢迎的原因之一是硬质碳的来源非常广泛。是的，有时人们总是说你可以用椰壳制造硬质碳，这是可能的。但是，制造硬质碳的碳化过程仍然需要高温，而且在环境上也相当有影响，你知道，会产生大量粉末，大量的，所以我认为制造石墨的过程可能消耗更多能源，甚至硬质碳可能会稍微好一些。

Yeah, I haven't really died deeper to get the exact numbers yet, but I do think that the hard carbon is more widely available. You know, graphite, as you know, battery grade graphite is very, very difficult to make. Okay, so the hard carbon may be easier to scale. Easier to scale. Yes, all right, so there's, I have a few more questions here. How are you doing on time right now? I'm doing good.

是的，我还没有深入研究得到确切的数字，但我确实认为硬碳更广泛地可获得。你知道，如你所知，电池级石墨非常难制造。所以硬碳可能更容易扩展规模。更容易扩展规模。是的，好的，我这里还有几个问题。你现在时间还好吗？我还好。

Yeah, I think we'll finish sometime. All right, well, we'll get some, more exciting stuff future looking that I want to get into because we're just looking at the state of sodium ion batteries today. And my understanding is that there's a lot of potential opportunities, even though the energy density of sodium ion batteries is low, there's ways that that can be improved. So what is the prospect of higher energy density sodium ion batteries and how would that be done? Yeah, so for sodium batteries, so I think it's very important for people who work on sodium batteries to make the energy density as good as the graphite LFP cells.

是的，我认为我们会在某个时候完成。好的，我们将会涉及一些更加令人兴奋的未来展望，因为现在我们只是在看钠离子电池的现状。据我了解，尽管钠离子电池的能量密度较低，但有改善的方法。那么，提高能量密度的钠离子电池的前景是什么样的，该如何实现呢？是的，对于钠电池来说，我认为让能量密度达到石墨LFP电池的水平对于从事钠电池研究的人们来说是非常重要的。

So I think that will make a difference when people choose what batteries to use. The road map for sodium battery development, I think an all the side is a mindless the top priority. And I think that the reason why, you know, unigrated startup companies spun out from my group and they particularly focusing on annual innovation. So instead of using the very fluffy graphite, I think we decided to take the approach using alloy. So sodium based metal alloys that you can actually find many in the periodic table.

因此，我认为这将在人们选择使用哪种电池时产生影响。我认为钠电池发展的路线图，我认为所有的侧面都是无意义的首要任务。我认为这是因为，你知道，从我的团队中分离出了一些初创公司，它们特别注重年度创新。所以我们决定采取使用合金的方法，而不是使用非常蓬松的石墨。因此，这意味着可以在周期表上找到许多基于钠的金属合金。

I think that the volume will be very dense because metals are usually much closely packed. And that also, I would say, could potentially, I think the numbers already there, we can show it can match the energy density of the graphite LFP. So that's one. The second one is, I think we need to continue to search for new castle the materials for sodium ion batteries because at the moment, the operation potential, for example, 3.4, 3.5 volts, I think there's a potential to go four-volt or even higher. There are such materials that waiting us to discover, okay, man-made materials, maybe not previously present.

我认为体积会非常密集，因为金属通常排列得更加紧密。而且，我想说，这可能会导致，我认为已经有的数字，我们可以展示它可以匹配石墨 LFP 的能量密度。这是第一个。第二个是，我认为我们需要继续寻找新的材料用于钠离子电池，因为目前，操作电位，例如3.4，3.5伏，我认为有潜力达到四伏甚至更高。有一些等待我们发现的材料，好吧，是人造材料，也许之前不存在的。

The third direction is really my favorite topic, which is to replace the liquid with solid and then enable anode free sodium solid state batteries. I did a little bit of the initial work. I think it's very exciting to see the volumetric energy density can potentially reach 700-wha-hour per liter. And that will, I think, really change the view of how people look at the sodium batteries because volumetric energy density for any of the free configurations.

第三个方向确实是我最喜欢的话题，那就是用固体取代液体，然后实现无阳极钠固态电池。我已经做了一些初步工作。我认为看到体积能量密度潜在地达到700瓦时/升是非常令人兴奋的。我认为这将真正改变人们看待钠电池的方式，因为对于任何无阳极配置来说，体积能量密度都是非常重要的。

I know it's very far out in the, yeah, but I think, you know, since I'm a scientist, I can't allow to dream a little bit. So I think the, yeah, regardless, we cannot do as high as lithium. Like I thought there's, you know, prototypes have shown 1,000-wha-hour per liter. But I think for sodium, we should be able to reach one day, you know, 600-700-wha-hour per liter. And that will be really good for those immobility that provides the in countries that you don't need a lot of ranges, right? So for instance, India, you know, in the metropolitan of Tokyo or Singapore, I think you really don't need the 500-mile per charge cars. So I hope that the sodium batteries, I think, again, you know, China is already demonstrating some of the immobility cars on the road with the sodium batteries.

我知道这个想法很遥远，但我认为，作为一名科学家，我可以偶尔做一些梦想。所以我认为，尽管如此，我们可能不会像锂那样做得那么高。就像我所想的那样，有一些原型显示每升1,000瓦时。但我认为对于钠电池，我们应该能够有一天实现，你知道，每升600-700瓦时。对于那些提供在一些国家不需要很多续航里程的场所来说，那将是非常好的。例如，印度，在东京或新加坡这样的大都市，我认为你真的不需要每次充电都能开500英里的汽车。所以我希望钠电池，我认为，中国已经展示了一些使用钠电池的交通工具。

Yeah, I think that it is very promising for me that to think about one day sodium batteries will be put into those cars. I think, of course, energy stationary storage, you know, for sodium batteries, the number one task we have to show is the safety that it needs to demonstrate a very, very good safety record. So everything is for sodium is just the beginning. But in the next one or two years, I think you'll be very busy making videos about sodium batteries. I think so. I hope so. It's something I am excited about.

是的，我认为为我来说，想象有一天钠电池会被应用到那些汽车中是非常有前途的。我认为，当然，对于钠电池来说，能源静态存储，我们首要展示的任务是它需要展示非常好的安全记录。所以一切关于钠的东西都仅仅是个开始。但在接下来的一两年里，我认为你会非常忙着制作关于钠电池的视频。我认为是这样。希望如此。这是我很兴奋的事情。

And the way I see it is at least the initial sodium ion batteries, it just seems absolutely ideal for grid storage due to scalability and cost. And because it's that volumetric energy density isn't as important. But I had a chat with, is it Darren? Darren Tan of Unigred? Is that? Yes, CEO. Yeah, my formal student, former student. Yeah. Yeah, I had a chat with him and he got me really excited about the potential for sodium solid state batteries. And so bottom line would for a sodium solid state battery, would you be able to get a vehicle that has three to 400 miles of range, something like that? Yeah, in the most ideal case, I think that can be done.

在我看来，至少最初的钠离子电池，由于可扩展性和成本，似乎非常适合用于电网储能。因为它的体积能量密度并不那么重要。我和达伦进行了一次谈话，是达伦·谭来自Unigred公司吗？是的，CEO。是的，我的正式学生，前学生。是的。我和他聊过，他让我对钠固态电池的潜力感到非常兴奋。因此，对于钠固态电池，最终能否实现车辆行驶三到四百英里的续航里程，类似这样的范围？在最理想的情况下，我认为可以做到。

Yeah, I think the sodium solid state is something somebody said, what surely sodium battery is so new? Solid state is so new. You're putting the two together. Yeah, I said, yeah, putting the two impossible together. Maybe it will become possible. So yeah, we really thought that it's important for the people working the battery field to keep things outside the box and to push it about boundaries. Because yeah, I think nothing is impossible if you are not against the thermodynamic principles.

是的，我认为钠固态电池是有人提到的，难道钠电池是如此新颖吗？固态技术也是如此新颖。将这两者结合起来。是的，我说，将这两者组合起来是不可能的。也许它会变得可能。所以，我们真的认为对于从事电池领域工作的人来说，重要的是保持超越传统，推动领域边界。因为，我认为只要不违背热力学原则，没有什么是不可能的。

I guess from my perspective, it seems like although it seems like you're compounding the difficulty by doing sodium and with like a solid state type of battery, I think they're at least as I understand it, there's lots of advantages to like a sodium solid state battery. Because for instance, when you use that solid electrolyte material, you need a lot of the active ion in that in order to make that viable. So solid state lithium ion batteries are one of their roadblocks is that they're so expensive. Whereas if you're using a sodium ion chemistry, the active ion there is so cheap that you no longer have that barrier. So you'd have super cheap solid state batteries that provide you with a long range vehicle. That's that's why I'm excited about it.

从我的角度来看，看起来你使用钠和固态电池来增加难度，但据我了解，固态钠电池有很多优点。因为例如，当你使用固体电解质材料时，你需要大量的活性离子才能使其可行。所以固态锂离子电池的障碍之一是它们非常昂贵。而如果你使用钠离子化学物质，那里的活性离子是如此便宜，以至于你不再有这个障碍。因此，你会得到超便宜的固态电池，为你提供长续航里程的汽车。这就是为什么我对它感到兴奋。

Yes. Yeah, in fact, I've been criticized many times about how much lithium is in the solid state batteries and can we provide the actual value because there's so much actual lithium. Yeah, so that actually is one of the major driving force that for surely to think hard about how can I, you know, if I stuff a lot of sodium in the solid state that they will not complain that just to close things out. Is there anything that you're working on that you'd like people to know about or what's the best way for people to follow you and keep up with what you're doing? Yeah, I'm pretty active on X, I guess, Twitter previously knows. Yeah, so okay, so if I want to champion for something right now, I just want people to realize I know that hydrogen is very hot. Yeah, but I want people to remember, even if hydrogen is successful, we will need a few hundred terawatt hour batteries. And we want all the people who are investing in the future of the planet to remember this. And we are asking trillion dollars investment in the infrastructure to build the batteries. And that also includes the training or the students or the workforce, the talents. Yeah, so I think that people need to keep the momentum going. I think that's why I will keep treating on the Twitter and the youth linking. I think it's extremely important that people, you know, not stopping the momentum because you think that the job is done, because we are successful at scaling. We have a lot more to do. We only did two or three percent of the job.

是的。事实上，我已经多次被批评关于固态电池中含有多少锂，我们能否提供实际数值，因为实际上含有大量的锂。是的，这实际上是一个主要推动力，让我确信要认真考虑如何，你知道，如果我往固态里面塞很多钠，他们就不会抱怨，就是为了收尾。您目前正在开展的任何项目想让人们知道吗？或者让人们跟踪您并了解您正在做的事情的最佳方式是什么？是的，我在X上非常活跃，我想是在Twitter上之前知道。所以，好，如果我现在要为某事发声，我只想让人们意识到我知道氢是非常热门的。是的，但我希望人们记住，即使氢气成功了，我们仍然需要数百太瓦时的电池。我们希望所有致力于地球未来的人记住这一点。我们需要万亿美元的投资来建设电池基础设施。这也包括培训或学生或劳动力，人才。是的，所以我认为人们需要保持势头。我认为这就是为什么我会继续在Twitter上发推文并与年轻人联系。我认为让人们不要停止势头是极其重要的，因为你认为任务已经完成，因为我们在扩展方面成功了。我们还有很多工作要做，我们只完成了两三个百分点的工作。

Absolutely. And I appreciate your time today. As I said at the beginning of interview, it's always a privilege to talk to you. I got a lot of great insights, a lot of great video ideas. So yeah, thanks for your time. And I'll talk to you later. Until next time. Thank you, Jonathan.

当然。我非常感谢你今天的时间。正如我在采访开始时说的，能和你交谈总是一种荣幸。我学到了很多有益的见解，也有很多好的视频创意。所以，谢谢你的时间。我会再和你交谈的。下次再见。谢谢你，乔纳森。

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