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MI291: How to Create a Great Life w/ Kevin Dahlstrom

发布时间 2023-09-11 09:00:00    来源

摘要

Patrick Donley (@JPatrickDonley) sits down with Kevin Dahlstrom to chat about how to create your ideal life. They do a deep dive into Kevin’s 17 point Twitter thread that went viral on how to lead the life you dream of. You’ll also learn more about the importance of minimalism and keeping a low burn rate to give optionality to your life, how much money you’ll need for this lifestyle, what smart money moves the wealthy make, three behaviors that will put you ahead of 99% of people, plus much, much more! Kevin is well known on Twitter for good reason and cranks out content that will improve your life. He was the founder of several start-ups, the CMO of two public companies, and has invested in over 70 private equity and real estate deals. Kevin is married with two children and lives in Boulder, Colorado. In his free time, he is an avid rock climber. IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro. 02:51 - What the inspiration was for Kevin to write his Twitter thread on leading a great life. 03:58 - How to avoid becoming one-dimensional and build a multi-faceted life. 05:33 - What the elderly talk about that was most important to them. 08:12 - How to go about determining and creating your ideal life. 12:02 - What it was like for Kevin to reboot his life and walk away from traditional notions of “success”. 15:43 - How Kevin found minimalism and how it has benefitted his life. 21:29 - How to calculate how much money you’ll need to lead your ideal life. 28:47 - What are the smart money moves that the wealthy make? 31:37 - Why investing in real estate is an important part of wealth building. 35:43 - How an illness during college forced Kevin to focus on health and fitness. 41:08 - Why writing is a superpower. 45:14 - How 1000 true fans can change your life. 47:58 - Why it is so important to avoid dumb mistakes. 54:52 - How to find your place and your tribe. 58:50 - Why it is important to give back. 01:02:43 - The importance of learning to say no. 01:03:46 - The importance of compounding. 01:06:18 - What the 3 behaviors are that will elevate you above 95% of all people. 01:07:53 - Why the search for truth is vital for a great life. 01:20:03 - How to avoid the dangers of comparison. *Disclaimer: Slight timestamp discrepancies may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Join the exclusive TIP Mastermind Community to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Kyle and the other community members. The Everything Guide to House Hacking by Robert Leonard. Kevin’s thread on leading a great life. Compounding podcast- Mr. Money Mustache. Your Money or Your Life by Vicki Robin. Outlive by Dr. Peter Attila. 1000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly. The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron. Atomic Habits by James Clear. NEW TO THE SHOW? Check out our Millennial Investing Starter Packs. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) here. Try Kyle’s favorite tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: TIP Finance. Enjoy exclusive perks from our favorite Apps and Services. Stay up-to-date on financial markets and investing strategies through our daily newsletter, We Study Markets. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the best business podcasts. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our sponsors: NetSuite Linkedin Marketing Solutions Fundrise TurboTax HelloFresh Connect with Patrick: Twitter Connect with Kevin: Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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中英文字稿  

You're listening to TIP. Yeah, I mean, first just to touch on this notion that you mentioned of the time billionaire, the basic idea there is if you're under 40 or frankly, even if you're over 40 these days, you've got roughly a billion seconds or more to live in your life. And that's actually the most valuable currency. And the ultimate question is, how are you going to spend that time? And I argue that ultimate success is control over how you spend your time. And of course, a lot of things you want to do with your time do take money, but it's often not as much as you think. And that leads me to kind of this exercise that you mentioned of, you know, what I call defining your ideal end state.
您正在收听 TIP。是的，我是说，首先，简单提及一下您提到的亿万富翁时间的概念，基本的想法是如果您不到40岁，或者实际上，即使是在这些日子里您超过了40岁，您大约还有十亿秒或更多的时间。而这实际上是最有价值的货币。最终的问题是，您将如何度过这段时间呢？我认为，最终的成功在于能够掌控您如何度过时间。当然，您想要用时间做的许多事情都需要金钱，但这通常并不需要您想象的那么多。这引导我对您提到的一种练习，也就是我所称之为定义您的理想最终状态。

Hey, everybody, in this week's episode of Millennial Investing, I got to sit down with Kevin Dallstrom to chat about how to create your ideal life. We did a deep dive in Kevin's 17 point Twitter thread that went viral on how to lead a life that you dream of. You also learn about the importance of minimalism and keeping a low burn rate to give yourself optionality in life, how much money you'll need to fund your lifestyle, what smart money moves the wealthy make three behaviors that will put you ahead of 99% of all people plus a whole lot more. Kevin is well known on Twitter for good reason and cranks out content that will improve your life. He's the founder of several startups. He was a chief marketing officer of two public companies, and he's invested in over 70 private equity and real estate deals. Kevin is married with two children and lives in Boulder, Colorado, and in his free time, he's an avid rock climber. This interview was a real treat for me. I hope you guys get a lot out of it, but more importantly, I hope you implement some of the ideas that Kevin discusses.
大家好，在本周的《千禧投资》节目中，我有幸与凯文·达尔斯特罗姆坐下来谈论如何创造你理想的生活。我们深入探讨了凯文的17点推特帖子，该帖子迅速传播，介绍了如何过上你梦想中的生活。你还将了解到极简主义和保持低燃烧速率对于给自己生活选择的重要性，以及需要多少资金来支持你的生活方式，富人进行的明智理财举措，可以让你超越99%的人的三个行为，以及更多内容。凯文在推特上因好理由而广为人知，并不断提供能改善你的生活的内容。他是几家初创企业的创始人，曾担任两家上市公司的首席营销官，并在70多个私募股权和房地产交易中进行了投资。凯文结婚并育有两个孩子，居住在科罗拉多州博尔德市，在空闲时间里是一个狂热的攀岩爱好者。这次采访对我来说是一次真正的享受。我希望你们能从中获得很多收获，更重要的是，我希望你们能付诸行动，实施凯文所讨论的一些想法。

And so without further delay, let's get into this week's episode with Kevin Dallstrom.
所以，不再拖延，让我们进入本周与凯文·达尔斯特罗姆的节目。

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Millennial Investing podcast. I'm your host today, Patrick Donnelly, and joining me today is Kevin Dallstrom. Kevin, welcome to the show.
大家好，欢迎来到《千禧一代投资》播客。我是今天的主持人帕特里克·唐纳利，今天和我一起的是凯文·达尔斯特罗姆。凯文，欢迎来到节目。

Hey, Patrick. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat.
嘿，Patrick。感谢邀请我来参加节目。我很兴奋能够与你聊天。

I'm excited too. I've been looking forward to this one. I wanted to talk a little bit. You've been the founder of at least four companies, at least. I think probably more than that, you've had a recent venture swell, which we may get into. You've also been the chief marketing officer of two public companies, and I think you've been involved in over maybe 70 private equity and real estate deals. But we're not going to talk very much about any of that. What I really want to focus on is one of my favorite threads that you've done on Twitter, which was how to lead a great life. You've done a ton of threads, but this is one I really want to focus on. There were 17 points. I think you wrote it maybe when you were 50. Can you talk a little bit about that, just the inspiration for it, just the process of writing it before we get into the 17 points?
我也非常兴奋。我一直期待这一天。我想聊聊一些事情。你至少创办了四家公司，可能还有更多。我认为你可能还参与了70多个私募股权和房地产交易。但我们不会太多地讨论这些。我真正想专注的是你在Twitter上发布的一系列关于如何过上美好生活的推文，这是我最喜欢的之一。你发布了很多推文，但我特别想讨论这个。里面有17点。我想说的是它是你大约50岁时写的。在我们探讨这17点之前，你能谈谈这个推文的灵感和写作过程吗？

Yeah, you bet. First of all, thank you for not focusing on the career stuff. I've done that before, and I'm very proud of my career. But at this point in my life, I'm much more interested in helping people understand how to build a great life, not just a great career, but a great life. And I often joke that I learned everything the hard way so that you don't have to. I'm 52 years old now, and I've been running really hard for a long time. I plan to continue running hard, but it's important to make sure you're running in the right direction. Throughout my career, I learned a lot of hard lessons on that. I did a pretty major reboot of my life in my mid 40s. And that's really the inspiration for most of my content that I write on Twitter is just the lessons I've learned about how to build a great life. Because my observation is there is a huge number of people, especially men who find success in their career, but ultimately end up miserable, or not as happy as they'd like to be, because they've kind of become one dimensional, focusing mostly on the career. And they kind of ignored the other stuff for too long, and it can become a trap.
是的，你没错。首先，谢谢你不只关注我在职业上的成就。我之前确实花了很多心思在事业上，而且我对自己的职业感到非常自豪。但是在我现在这个阶段，我更加关注的是帮助人们理解如何建立一个美好的生活，不仅仅是一个成功的职业，而是一个美好的生活。我常常开玩笑说，我通过各种困难的方式学到了一切，这样你们就不必再走弯路了。现在我已经52岁了，长期以来我一直努力奔跑。我计划继续保持这种努力，但重要的是确保你奔跑的方向是正确的。在我的职业生涯中，我学到了很多关于这方面的艰难教训。在我四十多岁的时候，我进行了一次重大的人生重启。这也是我在推特上写作的内容的主要灵感，就是我学到的关于如何建立一个美好生活的经验教训。因为我观察到，有很多人，尤其是男性，在职业上取得了成功，但最终变得不幸福，或者不如他们希望的那样快乐，因为他们变得单一化，过于专注于职业。他们忽视了其他方面的事情太久，结果陷入了困境。

So let's go into that first point. Talk about a little bit more about the common mistakes that you see people putting money and career before experiences and relationships. Can you go into that a little bit further?
那么让我们先来谈谈第一个问题。请再多谈谈你观察到的人们将金钱和事业置于经历和人际关系之前时常犯的一些常见错误。你能再深入一点吗？

Absolutely. Yeah. And the first thing I'd say is it's not an either or, you know, anything of value, whether it's a career, great relationships, mastering a craft, it takes time and compounding. So the time to start is now and you should do all these things in parallel. But a lot of the basis for that particular point in that thread was this the notion that if you talk to a lot of elderly people and you ask them to talk about the things that they treasure most in life, what are they going to talk about? They're probably not going to talk about the sizes or bank account or the deals that they closed or whatever. They typically will talk about the experiences they had and the loved ones that they shared those experiences with. And so it seemed to me that that's what we should optimize life for.
当然。是的。而我会首先说的是，并不是非此即彼，你知道的，所有有价值的东西，无论是职业、良好的关系、掌握一门技艺，都需要时间和复利的积累。所以，现在是开始的时间，你应该同时做所有这些事情。但是，那个帖子中对这一观点的基本支撑是这样的：如果你与许多长者交谈，并要求他们谈谈他们在生活中最珍惜的事情，他们会谈些什么呢？他们可能不会谈论账户的数额或他们完成的交易等等。他们通常会谈论他们曾经拥有的经历，以及与他们一起分享这些经历的亲人们。所以，在我看来，这就是我们应该为之优化生活的内容。

And the reality is, you know, we kind of go through life with this notion that, well, first, I need to make a lot of money. And then I can start building a great life. I call that someday thinking. The problem is that what happens is someday never comes. And you end up, you know, in your 40s, you were way down the road. Maybe you've had some success in your career, but you've got broken relationships. You don't have much outside of work or what I call one dimensional. And that's a trap that a lot of people and again, especially tends to happen to men who are often the breadwinner in the family. It happens to them and it's a big problem in society.
现实情况是，你知道的，我们在生活中常常带着这样一种观念：首先，我需要赚很多钱。然后我才能开始建立美好的生活。我称之为“将来某一天的想法”。问题是，到了那一天，真的永远不会到来。结果是，你可能已经到了四十岁，离目标还差很远。也许你在事业上取得了一些成功，但你的人际关系破裂，除了工作之外没有很多事情可做，我称之为单一维度。这是很多人陷入的一个陷阱，尤其是男性，他们通常是家庭的顶梁柱。这对他们来说是个很大的问题，并对社会造成了困扰。

Yeah, see, you talk about like for people that are under 40, that there are time billionaires and that like a Warren Buffett would do anything to trade places with a younger person. I think there's a societal script really that we focus on money, we focus on career and we do put off living the life that we want to lead. You had a really good thread too on coming up with your ideal life and really getting clear on that. Can you talk a little bit about that and the process for you for creating the ideal life that you're leading now?
是的，你说的是对于40岁以下的年轻人来说，有些人拥有大量时间资源，像沃伦·巴菲特这样的人会不惜一切与年轻人交换位置。我认为这实际上是我们社会上流行的一种脚本，我们关注金钱，关注事业，而推迟了我们想要过的生活。你之前也有一个非常好的帖子，讲述了如何构思理想生活并将其明确下来。你能稍微谈谈你为创造现在所过的理想生活而采取的过程吗？

Yeah, I mean, first just to touch on this notion that you mentioned of the time billionaire, the basic idea there is if you're under 40 or frankly, even if you're over 40 these days, you've got roughly a billion seconds or more to live in your life. And that's actually the most valuable currency. And the ultimate question is, how are you going to spend that time? And I argue that ultimate success is control over you, how you spend your time. And of course, a lot of things you want to do with your time do take money, but it's often not as much as you think. And that leads me to kind of this exercise that you mentioned of what I call defining your ideal end state. I think it's just kind of interesting how so many of us go through life with only kind of a vague idea of what we're really building toward. And I'm not just talking about it in the career again, I'm talking about what is your ideal life or your best life look like.
是的，我的意思是，首先，谈一下你提到的“时间亿万富翁”的概念。基本上，如果你年龄在40岁以下，实际上即使你现在已经超过40岁，你还有大约十亿秒甚至更多的时间可以度过。这实际上是最宝贵的货币。最终的问题是，你将如何度过这段时间？我认为，最终的成功在于掌控你如何度过时间。当然，你想要用时间做的很多事情确实需要金钱，但通常并不需要你想象的那么多。这就引出了你提到的一种练习，我称之为定义你理想的最终状态。我认为有趣的是，我们中有很多人在生活中只有一个模糊的想法，不知道自己真正要建立什么。这里我不仅仅是在谈论事业方面，我在谈论的是你理想的生活或者最美好的生活是什么样子的。

And so there's an exercise that I recommend to people. And it's super simple, but it's very powerful, which is literally, you know, get out of piece of paper or pull up in a, you know, a note on your iPad and bullet point out what your ideal life looks like. Like, who are you around? What are you doing with your time? What does your health look like? What does your financial situation look like? And, you know, on and on in mind, which I published a few days ago, you know, it's got like 30 bullet points on it doesn't take a ton of time. But it's a very eye opening thing to do because you'll often surprise yourself. And in my case, like a lot of the things that are on my bullet list don't take a lot of money. They, you know, I don't have like, for example, things that aren't on my list or things like run a big company or fly a private jet or drive fancy cars. Yet those are the things that many people are chasing. And I think it's a really powerful exercise.
所以我建议人们做一个练习。这个练习非常简单，但非常强大，就是你可以拿一张纸或打开iPad上的便签，列出你理想生活的要点。比如，你周围有哪些人？你如何度过你的时间？你的健康状况如何？你的财务状况如何？你可以一直列下去。就像我几天前发表的那篇文章一样，我列了大约30个要点，这并不需要花费很多时间。但这是非常引人瞩目的一件事，因为你经常会惊讶地发现自己。在我的情况下，我清单上的很多事情并不需要花费很多钱，例如运营一家大公司、坐私人飞机或开豪车这些事情并不在我的清单上，而这些却是许多人追求的东西。我认为这是一种非常有力的练习。

You know, because of my Twitter following, I get a lot of young guys in particular who are in their 20s or 30s or even 40s reaching out to me asking me for advice. And the situations are all different. But my advice is almost always the same, which is start by defining that ideal in state life that you want. And then that tends to shed light on the path right in front of you. It shows you what you need to be doing today. But equally importantly, what you need to stop doing to get to that ideal in state life.
你知道，因为我在Twitter上有很多粉丝，尤其是一些20多岁、30多岁甚至40多岁的年轻人经常向我寻求建议。而这些情况各不相同。但我的建议几乎总是一样的，那就是先定义一下你想要的理想生活状态。然后这个理想状态通常会照亮眼前的道路，告诉你今天需要做些什么。但同样重要的是，它也会告诉你为了达到那个理想状态，你需要停止做什么。

Can you go into some of the bullet points on your list that you came up with?
你能解释一下你列出的一些要点吗？

Sure. As a matter of fact, I will pull it up here so I can just read some of them verbatim. I published this list just a couple days ago on Twitter. My handle is at camp four. So let me pull up here and read just a few. Here we go.
当然可以。事实上，我会在这里打开并逐字阅读一些内容。我几天前在Twitter上发布了这个清单。我的用户名是camp four。那么，让我在这里找到并读出一些给你。我们开始吧。

So I'll just blast through a few of them. So, you know, the title of the bullet list is called Kevin's best life challenging intellectually stimulating work done on my terms. Morning's free to read, write and think at least one active, creative, personal project control 90% of my schedule, lots of sunshine and time outside ability to live and work anywhere, a small, beautifully designed home with a view always available for family.
所以我会简要地列举一些。所以，你知道的，这个项目清单的标题叫做凯文最好的生活挑战，在我的条件下进行智力刺激工作。早上有时间阅读、写作和思考至少一个积极的、创造性的个人项目，掌控我的日程表的90%，有大量的阳光和户外活动时间，能够在任何地方生活和工作，一个小巧而美观设计的住所，总是为家人提供方便。

And that's about the first third of it. But you get the notion of like the level of detail that I go into. It's it's like, what does that in state life really feel like? What are you doing? How are you living? And it's like, as I said, it's such a powerful exercise. And I recommend doing it if you're married, doing it with your spouse or your partner. And again, it just really having that clearly defined North Star really does provide a lot of clarity about the things you need to be doing today. It's a great exercise.
这大致就是其中的三分之一。但你可以理解我会提供多么详细的细节。就好像，现实生活中的状态是什么样的？你正在做什么？你的生活是怎样的？像我说的，这是一种强大的练习。我建议如果你结婚了，可以与你的配偶或伴侣一起做这个练习。再次强调，明确定义目标，确实可以为你今天需要做的事情提供很多明确性。这是一个很好的练习。

I actually pulled up the thread or the tweet last night and talked it over with my wife and we kind of went over a little bit of our ideal state. But it's a really great exercise to do. Is it something that you do on a like a yearly basis, like a yearly review to just kind of monitor how you're doing? Or is it just something that you've kind of set in place and you're working towards it, you know, pretty much all the time?
实际上，昨晚我找出了这个帖子或推文，与妻子讨论了一下，我们稍微讨论了一下我们的理想状态。但这是一个非常好的锻炼。你是每年都会这样做吗，像是一次年度回顾，以便监测自己的进展？还是你已经设定了目标并一直在努力朝着它前进呢，几乎一直都在？

I get asked that a lot. And you know, is it a moving target, basically? And the answer is, yes, it's a moving target. I think it moves a lot more when you're younger than when you're older. So, you know, when I was in my twenties, I actually didn't do this exercise. I wish I would have. That's why I preach about it so much. But I suspect that my ideal in state would have looked a little differently than it does today. But I'd say now, you know, over the past few years, it really doesn't change. I think I'm pretty locked in on what matters to me.
我经常被问到这个问题。你知道吗，它是一个不断变化的目标，基本上是这样吗？答案是，是的，它是一个不断变化的目标。我认为当你年轻的时候，它会变得更加频繁。所以你知道，当我二十多岁的时候，我实际上没有进行这项锻炼。我希望我能那么做。这就是为什么我如此推崇它的原因。但我猜想我的理想状态可能与今天有些不同。但是现在，你知道，在过去几年里，它并没有改变。我认为我已经对我所关注的事情相当确定了。

And you know, the good news is, I mean, I'm 52 years old. So you would hope I'm well on my way to living that life. And in fact, I would say that I'm 98% of the way there on my particular list. I've got an incredible life. And that's why I'm so motivated to share what I've like, it almost feels like I know a secret. And I want to share it with as many people as possible.
你知道的，好消息是，我的意思是，我已经52岁了。所以你希望我已经在迈向那种生活的路上。事实上，我可以说我已经完成了我特定的计划的98%。我过着令人难以置信的生活。这就是为什么我如此有动力地想要分享我经历的东西，几乎感觉像是我知道一个秘密。我希望能与尽可能多的人分享。

Was there a mentor or a book or something that inspired you to do this? See, that's the thing is I talk about how I learned everything the hard way. So hopefully you don't have to. You know, I had a pretty rough upbringing. There wasn't a lot of positive figures or anyone worth emulating in my life. And unfortunately, I had to learn everything on my own. And you know, yeah, I mean, there was books and things I read along the way. But you know, Twitter and a lot of the podcasts and all this stuff wasn't around when I was in my twenties. And so I really did learn a lot of things through trial and error. And again, you know, that's why I like to share this information. Because I think I could have gotten to my ideal in state 10 years or maybe even more earlier in life, because I spent a big chunk of my twenties and thirties pursuing a misguided notion of what winning was, you know, I sort of just accepted society's definition of winning, which meant having a successful career, you know, checking all the boxes that society says success means. And so I rocketed to the top of the corporate ladder, you know, was making tons of money, lived in a mansion in the suburbs of Dallas, had, you know, beautiful wife and two kids and like, all the check, check, check, check, check. But inside, I felt like an imposter. Like I was leading the life of some other guy who wasn't me because I wasn't winning in the way that that I defined it wasn't winning on my terms.
有导师、书籍或其他什么东西激励你从事这个吗？你看，我在谈论自己是如何用苦难的方法学到一切的。希望你不要走上同样的道路。我的成长经历相当艰难，生活中缺乏积极的榜样或值得仿效的人。不幸的是，我不得不独自学习。当然，我一路上阅读了很多书籍。但在我二十多岁时，并没有像Twitter、播客这样的东西供我参考。所以我真的是通过反复试错的方式学到了很多东西。再次强调，那就是为什么我喜欢分享这些信息的原因。因为我觉得我本可以在人生的前10年甚至更早的时候就达到我理想的状态，因为在我的二十多岁和三十多岁时，我花了很多时间追求着错误的成功观念。我只是接受了社会对成功的定义，这意味着拥有职业上的成功，按照社会所说的标准进行一切。所以我在公司里一飞冲天，赚了大笔钱，在达拉斯的郊区住着一个豪宅，有一位漂亮的妻子和两个孩子，所有的勾勾点点都对了。但内心深处，我感觉自己是个冒牌者。我的生活仿佛是另外一个不是我自己的人在过，因为我没有按照自己的定义来获得成功，没有按照自己的方式来取胜。

You talked about wearing masks and how in the business world, we often have to just wear masks in many cases, but you end up getting confused and you lose touch, I guess, with your true nature, who you know, who you really are. Talk about that transition from like being living in the mansion, having the, you know, seven figure salary. Talk about the psychological challenges of making that transition to redefining success, which is actually really hard to do, I think, because we are programmed from a pretty young age. It's very hard to do very few people actually, a lot of people recognize that they have been chasing a misguided definition of success. Very, very few people actually make the hard changes required to change directions.
你谈到了戴口罩，以及在商业世界中我们常常不得不去伪装，在很多情况下，但最终你会感到困惑，失去了联系，我猜，失去了你真实的本性，失去了你认识自己、真正的自己。谈谈从住在豪宅、拥有七位数薪水的过渡。谈谈重新定义成功所带来的心理挑战，这实际上是非常困难的，因为我们从很小的时候就被程序化了。很难做到，只有很少一部分人意识到他们一直在追逐错误的成功定义。真正能够做出需要改变方向的艰难决定的人非常之少。

You mentioned the idea of the masks and just to kind of explain that a bit for your listeners. Carl Jung, the philosopher, had this idea of masks. He said, look, we all wear masks just to function successfully in society. Masks aren't a bad thing. I mean, you need them to be able to interact with others. What can happen though, if you're not careful, is that you should accumulate these masks and you lose sight of the person behind the mask. And that often results in what we commonly call a midlife crisis.
你们提到了面具的概念，我来为你们解释一下。哲学家卡尔·荣格有一个关于面具的想法。他说，我们都戴着面具来顺利地在社会中生活。面具并不是什么坏事，它们是我们与他人交往所需要的。然而，如果不小心的话，你就会积累这些面具，失去了看到面具背后的真正自己。这经常导致我们常说的中年危机。

And Jung said that a midlife crisis is actually the opposite of what we think it is. You know, everybody thinks of a midlife crisis. Those like, Oh, wow, Patrick turned 45 and he became a different person. It's actually the exact opposite of that. What's happening is the masks are coming off and your true nature is being revealed. You're becoming who you really are. To others, it seems like you're changing. But to yourself on the inside, you're becoming your true self. And that was absolutely true with me. And in fact, it happened to me in my, you know, kind of classically in my mid 40s.
并且荣格说，中年危机实际上与我们所认为的相反。你知道，每个人都认为中年危机是“噢，哇，帕特里克45岁了，他变得完全不同了。”实际上，情况正好相反。发生的是面具被揭下来，你真正的本性被揭示出来。你正在成为你真正的自己。对其他人来说，你似乎在改变。但对你内心而言，你正在成为真正的自己。对我来说，这绝对是真实的。实际上，在我四十多岁时，这事发生过。

And in my case, I realized like, I don't know if I can go on one more day living this life because it's just not what I want. And so we did a major reboot of our life. I quit. I walked away from many millions of dollars with nothing planned in terms of what's next. We moved from Dallas to Boulder, Colorado to be in a better environment, put the kids in new schools. My wife had to reboot her life. It was a major change. It was very, very hard. But I knew it was necessary. And you know, now fast forward five or seven years. And it's the best thing I ever did.
在我的情况下，我意识到，我不知道自己还能不能再过上一天这样的生活，因为这不是我想要的。所以我们对生活进行了一次重大重启。我辞职了。尽管未来的计划一片空白，但我放弃了数百万美元。我们从达拉斯搬到了科罗拉多州的博尔德，为了能够生活在一个更好的环境中，给孩子们换了新学校。我的妻子也需要重新开始生活。这是一个巨大的改变，非常非常困难。但我知道这是必要的。现在回顾五到七年过去了。这是我做过的最好的决定。

So you know, making big changes scary. It's hard. It's always easier to do nothing. But you know, I've met many people who have taken those bold steps to reboot their life have yet to meet someone who regrets it. In fact, in almost every case, they'll say, wow, it actually worked out even better than I had hoped.
所以你知道，进行重大改变是可怕的。这很困难。不做任何事情总是更容易。但你知道，我遇到了很多人他们勇敢地迈出了重新开始生活的大步，而我还没有遇到任何一个后悔的人。实际上，在几乎每个案例中，他们会说，哇，事实上，结果比我期望的还要好。

Talk about the epiphany you had. I think you were sitting at a corporate boardroom meeting surrounded by a ton of really wealthy guys, you know, at the pinnacle of their career. But, you know, fat at a shape unhappy. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I don't think it happens this way for everybody. But I, in my case, there was a moment in time epiphany. I was sitting in a boardroom. I was a top executive with a multi-billion dollar company, you know, making tons of money. And I was sitting around this table with about 10 other guys who were all way more successful than me in terms of money. But they were all miserable. They looked miserable. Many of them had told me, you know, in confidence that they were unhappy. And that was kind of my epiphany is that this is not the path for me. This is a path to misery and destruction. And I value other than value being healthy, a value being outside. I value my passion for rock climbing and the community that comes along with that. And so I reoriented my life, you know, to kind of tie back to where we started this discussion, Patrick, you know, it's all about experiences and relationships. So I rebooted my life to really optimize for those things.
谈一谈你的顿悟吧。我记得你当时坐在一个公司董事会议室里，周围是一堆非常富有的人，你知道，他们是事业巅峰的人物。但是，你知道吗，他们虽然非常有钱，却身材臃肿、不开心。来谈谈这点吧。是的，我不认为每个人都是这样的。但在我个人的情况下，确实有一个顿悟的时刻。当时我坐在董事会议室里，我是一家几十亿美元的公司的高级管理人员，赚了很多钱。我坐在桌子周围，还有另外10个比我更成功（从金钱方面来看）的家伙。但他们都很不快乐。他们看起来很痛苦。他们中的许多人告诉我，他们不开心。这就是我顿悟的时刻，就是这条道路并不适合我。这是一条通向痛苦和毁灭的道路。我珍惜健康，珍惜户外活动，珍惜我对攀岩的热爱以及与此相关的社区。所以我重新调整了我的生活，与我们刚开始讨论的内容有关，Patrick，这一切都是关于经历和人际关系。所以我重新开始了我的生活，以最大程度地优化这些方面。

So part of that reboot was getting into minimalism, which is your next point. So we live, obviously, in this consumer society, we're constantly pushed to think that buying the bigger house or the bigger car or whatever that's being advertised is going to make us happier. Talk to us about how you found minimalism and maybe just how it's benefited your life. We'll go into it. I've got more questions after you go into it a little bit more.
所以重启的一部分是追求极简主义，这是你下一个观点。显然，我们生活在一个消费社会中，我们不断被灌输购买更大的房子、更豪华的汽车或被广告推销的其他东西会让我们更幸福的观念。跟我们谈谈你是如何发现极简主义，以及它是如何使你的生活受益的。我们将会更深入地讨论它。在你更深入地谈论之后，我还有更多问题。

Yeah. So first of all, when people hear the word minimalism, I think they often misunderstand what it really means. A lot of people think minimalism is like, you know, giving up all your possessions, denying yourself of joy and living a monk-like existence. And it's actually the exact opposite of that.
是的。首先，当人们听到极简主义这个词时，我认为他们经常误解它的真正含义。很多人认为极简主义就是放弃所有的财物，拒绝自己享受快乐，过着像僧侣一样的生活。实际上，它正好相反。

Minimalism is all about less is more. So stripping away things that don't bring you joy to make room for gorging yourself on things that bring you joy. It's actually minimalism is somewhat hedonistic in the sense that it's all about sort of saying, I'm just creating lots of room for the things that I really enjoy. And I think everybody eventually comes around to believing in this notion that less is more. It's just that some people do it much later in life and miss the opportunity to really get the joy that comes from practicing minimalism.
极简主义一直强调“越少越多”。因此，舍弃那些不给你带来快乐的东西，为了让自己拥有更多喜爱的事物而腾出空间。从某种意义上说，实际上极简主义有点享乐主义，因为它是关于创造许多空间给自己真正喜欢的事物。我认为每个人最终都会相信“越少越多”的概念，只是有些人在生命的晚期才做到这一点，错失了真正来自实践极简主义的快乐。

So I'm a big believer in it. And I've got a story that I wrote about on Twitter that kind of went viral where I talked about, I'll tell the short version, but as a teenager, my dream was to own a Porsche 911 turbo convertible. I had posters of that car on my wall growing up. It's just a beautiful car represented the ultimate in success to me.
我非常相信这一点。我在Twitter上写了一个故事，它非常流行。简单来说，作为一个青少年，我的梦想是拥有一辆保时捷911 Turbo敞篷车。我在成长过程中把这辆车的海报贴在墙上。这辆汽车对我来说代表着最终的成功，它是如此美丽。

When I turned when I was in my early 40s, I got a big bonus one year at work. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to go buy that Porsche. And so I went and, you know, had the luxury of being able to write pay cash for a $230,000 Porsche 911 turbo convertible, just a gorgeous car. I posted a picture of it on Twitter. And I got home that night, I was laying in bed, and that car was stressing me out. It wasn't bringing me joy. It was actually stressing me out.
当我四十岁出头的时候，我在工作中得到了一笔很大的奖金。我当时想，你知道吗，我要去买那辆保时捷。于是我去买了一辆价值23万美元的保时捷911turbo敞篷车，简直是一辆华丽的车。我把它的照片发到了推特上。然后那天晚上回到家，躺在床上，我突然感到那辆车让我感到很压力。它并没有给我带来快乐，反而给我带来压力。

What I realized was I wasn't that 13 year old boy anymore who dreamed about having a Porsche. My dream had changed. And I just hadn't taken the time to clearly define it. And so the ending to the story is I took the Porsche back to the dealership. And to the dealership, this credit, the manager shook my hand and said, congratulations, you're the first person who's ever done that.
我意识到的是，我已经不再是那个梦想拥有保时捷的13岁男孩了。我的梦想已经改变了。只是我一直没有花时间来明确定义它。所以这个故事的结局是我把保时捷送回了经销商那里。对于经销商来说，这个举动让经理握着我的手说：恭喜你，你是第一个这样做的人。

And so that was a great lesson learned for me is, you know, again, back to this idea of really take the time to search your soul and define what success really means to you. What that ideal in state looks like to you. If you look at my list, nowhere on the list anymore is a Porsche.
因此，这对我来说是一个很重要的教训，你知道的，再次回到这个想法，真正花时间反思自己的内心，定义成功对你来说真正意味着什么。对你来说，那种理想状态是什么样子的。如果你看看我的清单，保时捷已经不再出现在清单上了。

Yeah. And now you drive away like a 13 year old 15 year old pickup truck or something like that. I do and I love it. My truck has 170,000 miles on it. It breaks down all the time, unfortunately, but I love the car because it's kitted out with all of my climbing gear. So I can, I can walk out of my door right now, get in my car and go climbing because all my gear is in there and organized, it's ready to go.
是的。现在你开车离开就像开着一辆13岁到15岁的皮卡车之类的。我现在就是这样，而且我很喜欢。我的卡车已经行驶了17万英里。不幸的是，它经常出故障，但我喜欢这辆车，因为它里面都装满了我的攀岩装备。所以我现在可以从家门口走出去，坐上车就可以去攀岩了，因为我的所有装备都在车上并且整齐有序，随时可以使用。

So let's dive a little further into minimalism. How were you getting into minimalism as you had this epiphany? Or did that take place afterwards? And as you were cleaning up your lifestyle, you naturally found minimalism. I know you did an interview. We talked about it before the episode started recording about with Mr. Money Mustache, who was a huge influence on my own life, but talk a little bit about how you found Mr. Money Mustache at what stage of the game did minimalism enter into your life?
那么让我们再深入探讨一下极简主义。当你有这个顿悟的时候，你是如何开始追求极简主义的呢？还是在此之后才发生的呢？在你整理生活的过程中，你自然而然地发现了极简主义。我知道你曾经进行过一次采访。我们在录制这一集之前谈过这个问题，与投资家"必须养小胡子先生"进行过采访。他对我的生活有着巨大的影响，但是谈谈你是如何找到"必须养小胡子先生"的，以及在你的生活中极简主义是在什么阶段进入的。

Yeah, I think, you know, before that big epiphany, it was more accurate to say I was pursuing maximalism. You know, I was just listening to what society said and like, you know, hey, if you're winning, you have a huge house. If you're winning, you have a boat. And I did all those things. And I realized that it wasn't fulfilling. And I did like you, I discovered Mr. Money Mustache or Pete, who is now a good friend of mine.
是的，我觉得，在那个重要的顿悟之前，更准确地说我是在追求极度丰富的生活。你知道，我只是听从社会的说法，就像：“嘿，如果你成功了，你就会有一所大房子。如果你成功了，你就会有一艘船。”我做到了所有这些事情，但我意识到那并没有给我带来满足感。就像你一样，我也发现了Mr. Money Mustache或者说是Pete，他现在是我的好朋友了。

He lives here in Colorado as well. And I learned about the fire movement, which, you know, Mr. Money Mustache is sort of, I guess, the most prominent proponent of fire, at least on social media. And his writings really influenced me. This was right around the time I was starting to have this awakening around what I really wanted in life.
他也住在科罗拉多州。我了解到了"火灾运动"，你知道，Mustache先生在社交媒体上可能是最杰出的"火灾运动"支持者。而他的写作对我产生了很大的影响。正是在那个时候，我开始意识到自己真正想要的生活。

And I realized that, yeah, what's crazy, Patrick, is I was already a wealthy person financially. You know, so when I had this epiphany, the good news is by having my head down focused on just one dimensional success, I made a bunch of money. But I still didn't feel freedom is crazy. Like to be worth millions of dollars and still not feel free. And what Pete's writings, Mr. Money Mustache's writings really taught me is, Oh, I actually am already, I already have financial independence.
我意识到，是的，帕特里克，疯狂的是，从经济上来说，我已经是一个富有的人了。你知道的，当我有这个领悟时，好消息是，通过全神贯注于一维度的成功，我赚了一大笔钱。但我仍然没有感到自由，这真是疯狂。即使拥有数以百万计的财富，我仍然没有感到自由。而彼特的写作，也就是《老鼠爸爸先生》的写作，确实教会了我，哦，我实际上已经拥有了财务独立。

I just need to restructure my life a little bit to take advantage of it. And so the fire movement is really the core of it is really that it's much easier to gain independence by controlling your burn rate, by controlling your spend than it is to just, you know, follow the traditional retirement model of like save up $10 million and then retire at 65 and do nothing.
我只是需要稍微重组一下我的生活，以更好地利用它。因此，FIRE运动的核心实际上是，通过控制你的消费率、控制你的开支，要比仅仅遵循传统的退休模式（即存下1000万美元，然后在65岁退休并无所事事）更容易实现独立。

That's absurd. That's so outdated. The idea is like create a lifestyle that allows you to gain to inch your way toward financial freedom much, much sooner. Understanding that most people are going to continue to do some form of work, even after they quote unquote retire. So, you know, my life's a good example where he knows the number one bullet point on that, that in state list that I mentioned was challenging intellectually stimulating work. I've found that I've tried retiring a couple of times. I found that I'm not happy if I don't have a little skin in the game and if I'm not doing challenging work. So yeah, I'll continue to make some money, but you know, that doesn't necessarily mean I have to have a full time job because I do have financial independence. And so I think it's really a matter. What the epiphany for me and all of that was just redefining, or I guess rejecting the old tired factory work retirement model.
那太荒谬了。那太过时了。这个想法就像是创造一种生活方式，让你能更早地向财务自由迈进一小步。明白大多数人在“退休”后还会继续做某种形式的工作。所以，你知道，我的生活就是一个很好的例子，他知道在我提到的那个待办事项清单上，最重要的一条就是寻找智力刺激的工作。我尝试过几次退休，发现如果我没有参与其中，没有做有挑战性的工作，我就不会感到快乐。所以是的，我会继续赚一些钱，但这并不意味着我必须全职工作，因为我已经实现了财务独立。所以我认为这实际上是一个问题，对我来说，最重要的领悟就是重新定义，或者我想应该说是拒绝那种旧的、令人厌倦的工厂式退休模式。

Can you go into some of the calculations that Mr. Money Mustache uses on how to calculate your number? Yeah. So the whole fire movement is based on what's called the 4% rule. I like to say it's the 25 to 1 rule. So the idea being that there's been studies that have been done over the long course of history that show you can safely withdraw 4% of your assets every year and your assets will never get smaller. They'll only continue to grow through good economies, bad economies, recessions, whatever. This is a long term play. What that means, because at 4%, it means that whatever your annual spending is, you need to have 25 times that in assets, right, to be able to withdraw 4%. And so, you know, if you can live on $50,000 a year, you need to have $625,000 in assets. And it's pretty simple math. But the power in that equation is it allows you to look at both the income and the expense side of the equation. And what you realize very quickly is I can get to financial independence much faster if I am able to create a lifestyle that doesn't rely on consumption, that doesn't rely on me spending a lot of money on things that I don't actually really care that much about. And so that's the very, very short version. I wrote a thread on the fire or the 4% rule. There's lots of content out there on Mr. Money Mustaches blog.
你能详细介绍一下Money Mustache先生在计算“你的数字”方面使用的一些计算方法吗？是的。整个FIRE（经济独立，退休自由）运动基于所谓的4%规则。我喜欢称之为25比1规则。基本思想是有一些历史长期研究表明，你每年安全地提取你资产的4%，你的资产将永远不会减少，而且会在良好的经济环境、糟糕的经济环境、经济衰退等情况下继续增长。这是一项长期的计划。也就是说，在4%的提取率下，你需要拥有你年度消费的25倍作为资产，才能提取4%。所以，如果你每年能生活下来的开销是5万美元，你就需要拥有62.5万美元的资产。这是非常简单的数学。但这个方程式的威力在于它让你能够同时看到收入和支出两个方面。你很快就会意识到，如果我能够创造一种不依赖消费的生活方式，不需要花费大量金钱在我并不真正在乎的东西上，我就可以更快地达到财务独立。这就是非常简略的版本。我写了一个关于FIRE或者4%规则的帖子，在Mr. Money Mustache的博客上有很多相关内容。

And otherwise, I highly encourage people, strongly encourage people to go read up on the fire movement, in particular, some of Mr. Money Mustaches writings. Because even if you don't fully adopt it, I think it'll change the way you think about personal finance.
另外，我强烈鼓励大家去了解有关“火”的运动，特别是一些“Mr. Money Mustache”先生的文章。因为即使你并不完全采纳它，我认为它将改变你对个人财务的思考方式。

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让我们休息一下，听听今天的赞助商。Bylo, Cell High. 这个很容易说，但很难做到。例如，高利率现在正在击垮房地产市场。需求正在下降，价格也在下跌，即使是很多最好的资产也不例外。难怪Fundrise旗舰基金计划在接下来的几个月内进行大规模购买，将其十亿美元的房地产投资组合扩大。你可以在几分钟内，仅需10美元就可以将Fundrise旗舰基金加入你的投资组合中，只需访问fundrise.com进行投资。在投资之前，请仔细考虑Fundrise旗舰基金的投资目标、风险、费用和支出。有关更多信息，请查阅fundrise.com/flagship上的基金概览。这是一则付费广告。

Many of us made new moves in 2023. No matter what new moves you made last year, TurboTax experts make them count. Did you quit your nine to five to go all in on streaming yourself baking sweets? That's a move. Did you take a life changing online course that will help you become a better business person in 2024? That's a move. Did you move out of the busy city and into a small, calm, and secluded community for a fresh start? That's literally a move.
我们中的许多人在2023年做出了新的改变。无论你去年做出了什么新动作，TurboTax专家都会为其做出贡献。你是否放弃了朝九晚五的工作，全身心地投入到自己烘焙甜点的直播中？这是一种新的尝试。你是否参加了一门改变生活的在线课程，帮助你在2024年成为更好的商人？这也是一个新动作。你是否搬离繁忙的城市，搬到一个小而安静的偏远社区开始新的生活？这就是真正的一次搬家。

TurboTax experts make all your moves count, getting you every credit and deduction you deserve, filing with 100% accuracy, and getting your max refund guaranteed. Switch to TurboTax. You make your moves and TurboTax will make them count. See guarantee details at TurboTax.com slash guarantees. Experts only available with TurboTax live.
TurboTax专家确保您的每一步都有价值，帮助您获得应得的每一项减免和抵扣，以100%的准确性进行申报，并保证您获得最大的退款。切换到TurboTax吧！您自己决策，TurboTax会确保每一步都得到充分的利用。详细保证条款请参阅TurboTax.com/guarantees。TurboTax专家仅提供TurboTax Live服务。

Thanks to TurboTax for supporting millennial investing. Hey guys, with HelloFresh, you get farm fresh, pre-portioned ingredients, and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. Skip trips to the grocery store and count on HelloFresh to make home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit. No more staring blankly in the fridge wondering what to make for dinner. Give HelloFresh a try and dig into their biggest menu yet with over 45 recipes to choose from each week.
感谢TurboTax对千禧一代的投资支持。嘿，大家好，通过HelloFresh，你可以得到新鲜的农场食材、预先分好量的配料和应季菜谱，直接送到你家门口。不用再去杂货店，可以依赖HelloFresh来轻松、有趣、实惠地做饭。这就是为什么它是美国的第一大餐盒。不再茫然地盯着冰箱想晚餐吃什么了。来试试HelloFresh吧，每周提供超过45款菜谱的最大菜单供你选择。

They say breakfast is the most important meal of the day and HelloFresh agrees. In fact, they're giving all subscribers free breakfast for life. That means you'll enjoy a totally free breakfast item with every single HelloFresh delivery.
他们说早餐是一天中最重要的一餐，HelloFresh也同意这个观点。事实上，他们为所有订户提供终身免费早餐。这意味着每一次HelloFresh的配送都会附送一份完全免费的早餐食品给您享用。

My wife and I love HelloFresh and look forward to our deliveries right to our doorstep. We've got super busy lives, but there's a reason HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. Each meal is delicious, easy to prepare, and nutritious. Go to HelloFresh.com slash millennial free and use code millennialfree for free breakfast for life. One breakfast item per box while subscription is active. That's free breakfast for life at hellofresh.com slash millennial free with code millennialfree. All right, back to the show.
我的妻子和我都喜欢HelloFresh，并期待着他们把食物递送到我们家门口。我们的生活非常忙碌，但是HelloFresh成为美国排名第一的餐饮套餐提供商是有原因的。每一餐都美味可口、易于准备且营养丰富。去HelloFresh.com/millennialfree并使用优惠码millennialfree，即可获得终身免费早餐。每个箱子每次只有一个早餐项目，订阅有效期内享受免费早餐。这就是在hellofresh.com/millennialfree上使用优惠码millennialfree免费获得终身早餐的方法。好了，回到节目吧。

So for our listeners that aren't familiar with the fire acronym, it's financial independence retire early. There's another book that I loved called Your Money or Your Life, which was kind of a precursor actually to Mr. Money mustache, which goes into the same kind of concepts of what he's espousing. But it's great stuff. Definitely. I totally agree with you that it's something people need to check out. You interviewed him. Did you have any kind of interesting takeaways from the interview? Any interesting kind of little tidbits that you learned from him?
对于我们不熟悉“FIRE”首字母缩写的听众来说，它代表着财务自由和早期退休。有另一本我喜欢的书叫《你的钱或你的生活》，实际上它是Mr. Money Mustache这本书的前身，书中详细介绍了他所提倡的概念。真的是很棒的东西。我完全赞同你的观点，这是人们需要了解的事情。你采访了他。你从采访中有什么有趣的收获吗？有没有一些你从他那里学到的有趣小知识？

Well, the one thing I'd say about Pete is he's a true believer. I mean, he definitely practices what he preaches. And I would say even on the extreme. And so because Pete is on the extreme, I think those are the best people to learn from because most of us like Pete famously for many years now has published his annual spending. And even with a wife and a kid, his annual spending was something like $27,000, which most of us, you know, probably would struggle to live on $27,000 a year. But the principal applies at any level, even if you live on $100,000, $200,000 a year, the principal still applies. And so I think that's like one thing I took away from my interview with Pete is he practices what he preaches. And you know, among there's a lot of bad financial advice out there. In fact, it kind of drives me nuts that I see a lot of personal finance influencers on Twitter, on YouTube and elsewhere, just giving really, really bad advice, bad financial advice. And so I like to find people who really practice what they preach.
嗯，我对皮特的看法是他是一个真正的信仰者。我的意思是，他绝对是实践所言的人。而且我会说他甚至是极端的。正因为皮特是极端的，我认为这些人是最好的学习对象，因为很多人都喜欢皮特，因为他有名已久，每年公开他的支出情况。即使有妻子和孩子，他的年度支出也只有大约27,000美元，而我们大多数人可能会在27,000美元一年的生活中挣扎。但是，这个原则适用于任何层次，即使你每年生活费达到100,000美元、200,000美元，这个原则仍然适用。所以我认为这是我从采访皮特中得到的一点收获，他实践了自己的教诲。而且你知道，在这方面有很多糟糕的理财建议存在，这让我有些恼火。实际上，我在Twitter、YouTube和其他地方看到很多个人理财影响者提供非常糟糕的建议，糟糕的理财建议。所以我喜欢找那些真正实践自己教诲的人。

Well, let's get into that. You did a post called it was about five smart money moves that wealthy people make that the average middle class American doesn't. Can we get into that a little bit and touch on some of those smart money moves?
好的，让我们来深入谈论一下。你发了一篇帖子，关于富人做的五个理财明智之举，这些明智之举普通的中产阶级美国人没有采取。我们可以稍微详细一些谈谈这些理财明智之举吗？

Sure. I'm going to pull it up real quick here on Twitter so I can actually reference it.
好的，我马上在Twitter上找出它，这样我可以实际参考。

Yeah. So the thread was called top five money moves of the rich. And you know, this is basically things that anybody can do to start building wealth is what the smartest, wealthiest people do.
是的，所以这个帖子的标题是富人的前五个理财方式。你知道，这基本上是任何人都可以做的事情，是最聪明、最富有的人所做的事情，用来开始积累财富。

And so for example, you know, a lot of it's like simple things, but practiced and compounded over time. So you know, the rich accumulate assets is one. So you know, you want to spend your money on things that grow in value, like real estate, for example, or stocks and not spend a lot of money on things that depreciate in value, like cars being the prime example, cars are the number one offender buying a new car, especially if you're not financially independent already is a disastrous financial move. It just is it's the number one destroyer of wealth. It's why I mean, I could drive anything I want at this stage, but I still don't just because on principle, I'm just not going to invest my money in things that that lose value.
所以举个例子，你知道，很多事情都是简单的，但经过时间的实践和积累。你知道，富人积累资产就是其中之一。比如，你想把钱花在能增值的东西上，比如房地产或者股票，而不是花很多钱在值钱后贬值的东西上，比如汽车，汽车是最典型的例子，买辆新车尤其是如果你还没有财务独立，这是一个灾难性的财务举动。这是财富消耗的头号元凶。这就是为什么我在现阶段可以开任何我想开的车，但我还是不这样做，因为从原则上讲，我不打算把我的钱投资在会贬值的东西上。

So people, you know, smart wealthy people accumulate assets, real estate, you know, one thing I learned fairly late in life is real estate in particular is a system that really is stacked in our favor, whether that means just owning your own home as a starting point or buying other, you know, properties, eventually participating, you know, in real estate private equity funds, like I do educate yourself on on real estate and start investing there.
所以人们，你知道，聪明的富人会积累资产，包括房地产。你知道，我在生命中晚期才学到的一件事是，房地产特别是一个系统，实际上是有利于我们的，无论是作为一个起点拥有自己的住房，还是购买其他的物业，最终参与到房地产私募基金等投资中。像我一样，你要对房地产进行教育自己，并在那里开始投资。

And then compounding, you know, I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about compounding in the next few minutes, but you know, compounding is really the key to anything. It's small actions done consistently over time add up exponentially. And so practicing all these behaviors, keeping, you know, putting money into assets that increase in value over 20 years builds extraordinary wealth.
然后，你知道，我相信我们接下来会谈论很多关于复利的事情，但是你知道，复利其实是关键。它是小小的行动经过持续时间的积累而呈指数增长。因此，坚持这些行为，将钱投入到在20年内增值的资产中，能够建立超乎寻常的财富。

And then, you know, another one is avoiding debt. So, you know, debt is a huge destroyer of wealth. You should only use debt to buy assets that are going to grow in value like a like a home. So mortgage would be considered a smart use of debt, but you know, buying a car or buying clothes or whatever on with debt is a bad idea.
然后，你知道的，另一个是避免债务。你知道的，债务是财富的巨大毁灭者。你只应该利用债务购买会增值的资产，比如房屋。因此，按揭贷款可以被认为是明智使用债务的方式，但是你知道的，用债务购买汽车、衣服或其他东西是一个坏主意。

And then the last thing I mentioned in that thread was make everything a money move. So it becomes really a kind of a fun almost like a game to live your life in a way and have a mindset such that everything you do is done with a mind toward inching toward financial success or financial independence. And again, I'll go back to the fire movement, you know, people should educate themselves on fire because that's kind of a core principle. It becomes it's almost like a lifestyle more than it is just a financial strategy.
然后，在那个帖子中，我提到的最后一件事是将一切都转化为金钱的举动。这样，你的生活就变得像是一场有趣的游戏，你以一种思维方式来过日子，每做一件事都是为了朝着财务成功或财务独立迈进一步。我再次回到 FIRE 运动，你知道，人们应该对 FIRE 运动进行自我教育，因为那是一种核心原则。它几乎成为了一种生活方式，而不仅仅是一种财务策略。

Yeah, it's completely a lifestyle. I wanted to get into you've been in FinTech for most of your career. You started swell, which we actually I kind of want to get into swell because it's a mission, I think of yours to help the average person acquire wealth.
是的，这完全是一种生活方式。我想要了解你在金融科技行业工作大部分时间。你开始了Swell，实际上我有点想探讨一下Swell，因为我认为帮助普通人获得财富是你的使命之一。

You know, the top 1% or top 5% have all kinds of services and products available to them that helps build wealth with swell. Can you go into a little bit about what you've done with the company and just the mission that you've got with the company of swell?
你知道，那些排在百分之一或百分之五的富裕人群，他们可以利用各种服务和产品来积累财富。你能详细介绍一下你在swell公司所做的工作，以及swell公司的使命是什么吗？

Yeah, so there's no question that the our financial system is in general is rigged heavily in favor of the wealthy. You know, the poor people not only have access to less opportunities in a financial system, they pay more for everything. And so I think we've reached a time where we desperately need to democratize our financial system.
是的，毫无疑问，我们的金融体系普遍对富人偏袒严重。你知道，穷人不仅在金融体系中拥有更少的机会，而且他们支付的费用更高。因此，我认为我们正处于迫切需要使我们的金融体系民主化的时刻。

The challenge is, you know, consumer finance, banking, these are super regulated industries. Essentially, the big banks or our banks in general have an oligopoly on the market. They have this thing called a bank charter that allows them to have superpowers to do things that other companies can't. And you know, there's been a lot of investment over the past five or 10 years in FinTech, financial technology, a lot of startups trying things. The reality is it's proven to be banking has proven to be an extremely difficult industry to disrupt.
挑战在于，你知道的，消费金融、银行业，这些都是受到高度监管的行业。实际上，大型银行或者一般的银行在市场上形成了寡头垄断。他们拥有一种被称为银行特许经营的东西，使他们能够拥有超乎寻常的能力去做其他公司无法做到的事情。而且你知道，过去五到十年里在金融科技领域进行了大量投资，有许多初创企业试图创新。然而事实证明，银行业被证明是一个极其难以打破的行业。

And you know, I founded a company a few years ago called swell that had the mission of disrupting. We were particularly focused on the credit card industry credit card debt in the US just topped a trillion dollars for the first time in history. The average APR people are paying on that debt is over 20%. It's a huge, huge problem that doesn't get talked about enough. And you know, we've set out to disrupt it. And the current news is I sold my company swell back in May. So I'm no longer the CEO and founder of swell, but the mission continues.
你知道的，几年前我创办了一家名为swell的公司，其使命是颠覆性地改变。我们特别关注的是美国的信用卡行业，美国的信用卡债务刚刚首次突破万亿美元大关。人们支付的平均年利率超过20％。这是一个非常严重的问题，却没有得到足够的关注。所以你知道的，我们致力于改变这一状况。目前的消息是，我在五月份出售了我的公司swell。所以我不再是swell的首席执行官和创始人，但我们的使命还在继续。

But it's something I am really personally passionate about, which is not only just basically helping people get ahead, because banks have proven that their motive is anything but to help you get ahead, it's to help themselves get ahead. And there's a huge need for new companies, new financial services, new products that help people get ahead, whether it's in managing their debt, their investments and so on. Because financial literacy is very, very low in the US. It's a dismal it's one of our core tenants too, is just, you know, providing great financial education.
但这是我个人非常热衷的事情，不仅仅是基本上帮助人们取得进展，因为银行已经证明了他们的动机不是帮助你取得进展，而是帮助自己取得进展。而且，对于新公司、新金融服务和新产品来帮助人们在管理债务、投资等方面取得进展，有着巨大的需求。因为美国的金融素养非常低，这是我们的核心宗旨之一，就是提供优质的金融教育。

Congratulations, by the way, on selling swell. That's awesome. So one of your first points was having creative work. Now that you're not doing swell or you sold out, what's your next project that you're into? Oh man, I have far more projects than time. That's a challenge of mine. In fact, I just came back from two weeks up in the mountains near Telluride, Colorado. And I came back very convicted that I need to really prune my life a little bit. I'm really over committed, because there's so many things I'm excited about. But that being said, I do think it's absolutely critical to have projects you're passionate about multiple projects going on at any given time, whether it's work related or purely personal.
恭喜你，顺便说一句，你出售的那个项目很成功，太棒了。你最初提到的一个要点是要有创造性的工作。现在你不再从事那个项目或者你把它卖掉了，你接下来的计划是什么呢？哦，伙计，我有太多的项目却没有太多的时间去完成。这是我的一个挑战。事实上，我刚刚从科罗拉多州特卢里德附近的山区回来，待了两个星期。我回来的时候深感我需要精简一下我的生活，因为我太过于忙碌了，因为有太多事情让我兴奋。但是话虽如此，我确实认为有多个项目是非常重要的，这些项目可以是工作相关的，也可以是纯粹个人的。

One project that I'm deep in the middle of right now, and I can't talk a lot about the details, but I'm hosting an event here in Boulder in early September for 18 friends, most of whom came from Twitter. And it's a bit of a pilot test for an idea that I have, a big idea that I have. And so coordinating an event and curating it to my level of excellence has been a huge undertaking, much bigger than I expected. But it's been also a great creative outlet for me. And so I'm a huge believer in like, you need to express your creativity. And that can, that can look lots of different ways. I mean, it can look like doing a home renovation project and using your hands and actually building stuff yourself. It could be a writing project. It could be exploring a new business opportunity like I'm doing. I think that's really, really important to be fulfilled. You talk about that. That's one of the other points of great life is being multi dimensional, not just being focused like a Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, like focusing all their energy, you know, they built great things, but at the expense of being multi dimensional. So yeah, I think minimalism fits into that you've got time to pursue those passion projects. So all good stuff.
目前我参与其中的一个项目，详细细节不能透露太多，但我正在九月初在博尔德举办一个活动，邀请了18位好友参加，其中大部分是来自推特的朋友。这是我一个大想法的试点测试。因此，筹办活动并达到我的卓越水平是一项艰巨的任务，比我预期的要大得多。但这也为我提供了一个极好的创造性出口。我非常相信，你需要表达自己的创造力。这可以有很多不同的方式。可以是进行家居装修项目，亲自动手建造东西。也可以是写作项目。还可以是像我正在做的探索新的商机。我认为这非常重要，可以让人获得满足感。你提到过这一点。拥有多个维度是伟大生活的另一个要点，不仅要像埃隆·马斯克或史蒂夫·乔布斯那样专注地集中全部精力去建造伟大的事物，也要有多方面的兴趣。所以是的，我认为简约主义与此相吻合，你有时间去追求那些激情项目。所以都是好的东西。

I want to switch into talking about the next point, which is fitness and nutrition. So one of your points, I think, was you want to be in the top point 0.1% of guys, you're a is it guys your age or just in general? Yeah, whichever. Yeah. So let's get into that. When did you get into fitness and nutrition talk about some of the things that you're practicing to really build a great life in that domain?
我想转而讨论下一个要点，即健身和营养问题。所以你的一点是，我认为，你想成为0.1%男性中的佼佼者，你是指你这个年纪的男性还是包括任何男性？是的，不论哪个。好的，我们来谈谈这个。你是什么时候开始关注健身和营养的？说说你为了在这个领域过上美好生活而做的一些实践。

Yeah, I've written a lot about this, but you know, I've always been into sports and athletics my whole life, but in college, I had a huge health challenge. I didn't know it at the time didn't realize until years later, but I had a severe bout of Epstein bar virus and you know, Epstein bar is the virus behind what we call mono.
是的，我对这个问题写了很多东西，但你知道，我一直对体育和运动非常热衷。但在大学时期，我遇到了一个严重的健康问题。当时我并不知道，直到几年后才意识到，我患了一次严重的爱泼斯坦-巴病毒感染，你知道，爱泼斯坦-巴病毒是我们所称的单核细胞增多症的病毒。

And for most people, you get it and then your immune system suppresses it and you move on with life. It's kind of always there, but your immune system keeps it under control. For some people, and this and I was one of them, it runs unchecked and it can create huge health problems. It causes your hormones to go out of balance. It causes psychological problems, your deeply fatigued muscle weakness, like a whole host of problems. And that happened to me in college.
对于大多数人来说，你感染上它之后，免疫系统会压制它，然后你继续生活下去。它在某种程度上一直存在，但是你的免疫系统会控制住它。但是对于某些人，包括我自己，它会不受控制地繁殖，造成严重的健康问题。它会导致荷尔蒙失衡，引发心理问题，令你深感疲劳乏力，还有一系列的问题。而这些问题就在我大学时期发生了。

And it was a huge wake up call because I had always been thought of myself as like exceptionally healthy and fit. And now all of a sudden, I could barely drag myself out of bed. And so that really began a journey where I went deep into understanding, you know, kind of how to rebuild, because the mainstream medicine has had back then and still has today, very few answers for any chronic condition.
这是一个巨大的警钟，因为我一直以来都认为自己非常健康和强健。突然间，我几乎无法从床上爬起来。于是，我开始了一段深入探索的旅程，了解如何进行重建，因为当时的主流医学对于任何慢性疾病几乎没有答案，而现今情况也是如此。

In fact, I dodged a number of bullets along the way, things that doctors wanted to do that just didn't feel right to me. And so what I learned over time is, you know, there's there's no shortcuts. It's, you know, a lot of it boils down to just diet, nutrition, and, you know, an exercise.
事实上，在这个过程中，我避开了许多医生想要采取的对我来说感觉不对的事情。随着时间的推移，我学到的是，你知道的，没有捷径。很大程度上归结为饮食、营养和锻炼。

And so that's become a huge part of my life. And also at a more fundamental level, you know, you only get one life to live on this planet. Why wouldn't you want it like your body is your vessel for experiencing life? Why wouldn't you want your vessel to be in tip top shape? You know, why wouldn't you want to drive a Ferrari and not a Hugo? And so it just, like, it's just a logical thing to me.
所以这已经成为我生活中的重要组成部分。在更基本的层面上，你只有一次生命在这个星球上生活。为什么你不希望你的身体像你经历生活的船舶一样？为什么你不希望你的船舶保持最好的状态？你知道的，为什么你不想开一辆法拉利而不是一辆雨果？对我来说，这只是一个很自然的选择。

I think it's really sad when someone lets themselves get, you know, obese or way out of shape, because you literally can't experience life to its fullest if your body is not healthy. I mean, a great example, like, you can't have great sex if you're not healthy. And so I guess you can choose to opt out of that or miss out on it. But you know, I want to experience life, everything that life has to offer. And so I made, you know, make I've always made health and fitness a top priority for me.
我觉得当某人任由自己变得肥胖或者身材严重失调时真的很可悲。因为如果你的身体不健康，你就无法充分体验生活。我的意思是，比如，如果你不健康，就无法有美好的性生活。所以我猜你可以选择放弃或者错过它。但是你知道的，我想要经历生活，体验生活所能提供的一切。因此，我一直将健康和健身作为我最重要的事情。

In fact, it really should be the top priority, because you know, it really is true that, you know, the old saying that a healthy man has 100 problems, a sick man only has one, it really is true is that, you know, if you don't have your health, you have nothing. I had a little bout with diverticulitis a while ago, and it put me, I mean, it just put me down.
实际上，这确实应该是最重要的事情，因为你知道的，有一句古老的谚语说：一个健康的人有100个问题，而一个生病的人只有一个问题，这是真的，你知道的，如果你没有健康，就什么都没有了。前段时间我曾经有一次轻微的结肠憩室炎，它真的让我痛苦不堪。

And yeah, you're right, when you when you've got a health crisis like you had in college, you actually had to drop out of school when that happened, right? Oh, yeah, it was severe. In fact, I dropped out for a semester. But even when I came back a semester later, I was still very, very ill. And I kind of limped, limped my way through college and then slowly began to rebuild. So it was, you know, it was devastating.
没错，当你在大学时遇到健康危机时，你确实不得不辍学了，对吧？哦，没错，当时情况非常严重。实际上，我辍学了一个学期。但即使我一个学期后回来上学，我仍然非常非常不舒服。我勉强完成了大学学业，然后慢慢开始重建自己。所以这段经历可以说是毁灭性的。

To your point, when you have a health crisis like that, you realize how important your health is, and it's not to be taken for granted. And like you said, you need to focus time and energy on it, like as one of the top priorities. And the older you get, the more time and energy you need to put into it. So I was, I call it tightening the screws. Like, you know, when you're in your 20s, you can kind of get away with, you know, you want to stay fit, but it doesn't take a whole lot. Your body's working in your favor.
说实话，当你经历这样的健康危机时，你会意识到健康的重要性，它不能被视为理所当然。就像你说的那样，你需要将时间和精力集中在它上面，把它当作头等大事来对待。而且随着年龄的增长，你需要投入更多的时间和精力。所以我称之为“紧固螺丝”。你知道的，在20多岁时，你可能能够轻松地保持健康，不需要太多的努力，你的身体还能发挥作用。

As you get in your 30s, 40s, 50s, you have to be able to devote more and more time to your health. That's why, by the way, all these things are connected. That's why it's important to control your time. Because if you're, if you're still working 60 hours a week in an office, it's going to be very hard to devote another 20 or 30 hours to your health and fitness. And so you've got to gain control of your time as you progress.
当你进入30岁、40岁、50岁时，你必须能够为自己的健康投入越来越多的时间。顺便说一下，这就是为什么所有这些事情是相互关联的原因。这就是为什么掌控你的时间非常重要。因为如果你每周还要在办公室工作60小时，那么要再投入20或30小时来关注你的健康和健身就会非常困难。所以随着你的成长，你必须掌控自己的时间。

Have you come across the, it's Dr. Peter Atia, the book longevity. Have you read that at all? Of course. Yeah. I mean, Atia is a rock star. I've been in that movement way before it was cool. It's really fashionable now. But you know, I was doing what they now call biohacking, you know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago. So I'm familiar with Atia and all those guys. And yeah, I think it's, it's great that it's becoming a huge focus now.
你有听说过《长寿》这本书吗？作者是Peter Atia医生。你有读过吗？当然。嗯，Atia是位当红巨星。在这个潮流盛行之前，我早就涉足其中了。如今，这真的很时髦。但你知道吗，他们现在所称之为生物黑客，我在20年甚至25年前就在做了。所以我对Atia和他们这些家伙很熟悉。嗯，我认为现在它成为了重点关注的对象是很棒的。

Diet wise, what are some things you do? Do you have any kind of special diet that you implement? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the keys in diet is not to be overly dogmatic, because if you are, it will never stick. So if you look at my ideal in-state list, one of the bullet points on there says eat an 80% clean diet. I found that for me, you know, I avoid things that I know I don't do well on. For me, for example, ever since my illness in college, I'm super sensitive to alcohol, like way more than most people. And so I use, I still drink, but I do it very, very sparingly. But generally, just eating really clean food most of the time, everything in moderation, including moderation. So I definitely have binge days and I like my ice cream and desserts. But if you can kind of stick to an 80% clean diet, plus the exercise, you're going to do great.
从饮食方面来说，你有什么特别的饮食习惯吗？你实行过任何特殊的饮食吗？是的。我的意思是，我认为在饮食方面不应过于教条，因为如果过于教条，就无法持之以恒。所以如果你看看我的目标清单，其中一个要点是吃80%的健康饮食。我发现对我来说，我会避免那些我知道我不适应的食物。比如说，自从我在大学生病后，我对酒精非常敏感，比大多数人要敏感得多。所以我还是会喝酒，但非常非常节制。但总的来说，大部分时间我都会选择吃非常健康的食物，包括适度的一切。所以我肯定会有狂欢的日子，我喜欢吃冰淇淋和甜点。但如果你可以坚持80%的健康饮食，再加上运动，你会做得很好的。

Let's move on to the next thing that we have in common, which is writing. You spend, I think, a lot of time doing the Twitter threads. I think a lot of your mornings are spent doing writing. In a lot of ways, it's a superpower if you can, if you can write well, especially with Twitter, for example, there's a lot of people on there, including yourself because of their skill in writing have really been able to grow their followers, provide great content. Talk to me a little bit about writing for you, how you got into it, your practice, any kind of tips and tricks that you have for being a better writer. Yeah. And I would actually say Patrick that writing is a superpower, even if you're not good at it, because the real benefit of writing goes to the writer, not to the reader. Like the fact that if you can, like, for example, if you write on Twitter and you can amass a following, whatever, tens of thousands of followers, that's like the icing on top. It's great. It's a very flattering. But the real value of writing is in the writing itself, not in the publishing and having other people read it. And so I believe that it sounds like you do, that developing a practice of writing is critical because there is nothing on earth that sharpens thinking like writing. And again, you don't have to be a good writer, but I think just getting into that practice, and I'm big on routine. So, you know, a big part of the biggest part of my morning routine is sitting down and writing with a cup of coffee. And the amazing thing about Twitter in particular is there's like this, you know, writing often requires inspiration. And when I wake up in the morning and I go through my Twitter feed, you know, in 10 minutes, I'll usually see something that inspires a thought. And so at any given time, I'm in the midst of writing, you know, 10 or 12 or 20 different little little pieces or threads or tweets. And the vast majority of them never see the light of day. I know I published maybe one in 10 or one in 20 things I write. But those, you know, the other 95% that doesn't get published is still immensely valuable to me because again, it really nothing sharpens thinking. So my advice to anybody is just to start like start with five minutes a day. You know, it can be crappy writing. You don't have to publish anything. If you think you've written something that's great, publish it on Twitter, and you're going to be shouting into the void and you may shout into the void for months and months and months. But that's fine.
让我们继续谈论我们共同的下一个话题，即写作。我认为你花了很多时间做 Twitter 的线索。我想你的很多早晨都花在写作上。在很多方面，如果你能写得好，特别是在 Twitter 上，那是一种超能力。例如，有很多人在那里，包括你自己，因为他们的写作技巧而真正能够增加他们的粉丝数量，提供优质内容。来谈谈你的写作经历，你是如何入门的，你的实践经验，还有你成为更好的作家的任何技巧和诀窍。是的，我想说 Patrick，即使你不擅长写作，写作也是一种超能力，因为写作的真正好处是给写作者，而不是给读者。比如说，如果你在 Twitter 上能积攒一大批粉丝，成千上万的关注者，那是锦上添花，太好了，真令人荣幸。但写作的真正价值在于写作本身，而不是出版和让别人阅读。所以我相信，听起来你也是这样认为的，养成写作习惯非常重要，因为没有什么比写作更能锤炼思维的了。再说一次，你不一定要成为一名优秀的作家，但我认为开始养成写作习惯很重要，而且我非常注重日常规律。所以，我早晨的重要部分就是坐下来喝杯咖啡写作。尤其令人惊奇的是 Twitter 上有这样一种现象，写作常常需要灵感。当我早上起床后浏览我的 Twitter 动态时，通常在10分钟内，我就会看到一些能激发思考的东西。所以在任何时候，我都会在写作过程中同时进行10、12或20个不同的小作品、线索或推文。其中绝大部分都不会见诸于世。我知道我发表的作品中，可能只有十分之一或十分之二是我写的东西。但那其他95%没有被发表的作品对我来说仍然非常有价值，因为再一次地，没有什么比写作更能锤炼思维了。所以我给任何人的建议就是开始写作，每天从五分钟开始。写得可能不好，你不需要发表任何东西。如果你认为你写了一些很棒的东西，就在 Twitter 上发表出来，你可能会在虚空中大声呼喊几个月甚至更长时间。但那没关系。

So, I could go on and on about the value of writing. And in fact, you know, again, just like fitness, as you progress in life, I think you want to be able to devote more of your time to activities like writing. You know, I probably spend, I don't know, at least five to 10 hours a week writing, depending on what's happening that week.
所以，我可以无穷无尽地讲述写作的价值。实际上，就像健身一样，随着你在生活中的进步，我认为你希望能够将更多的时间投入到像写作这样的活动中去。你知道的，根据这个星期发生的事情，我可能每周至少花费五到十个小时来写作。

Was that your experience when you first got on Twitter that you were writing into the void? Wasn't a lot of feedback?
当你第一次使用Twitter时，你是否有过这样的经历，感觉自己在写给虚空？没有很多反馈吗？

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's how it all starts. And you know, I think my accounts a little bit different than a lot of my peers on Twitter and that from day one, I said, I'm going to write for an audience of one, which is me. And if I'm pleased with it, that's my only bar. And I've stuck to that, you know, now three years later, I've stuck to it and it's worked pretty well. But I do, I'll be if I'm being honest, like, I do see some of my friends who've like really learned to write content for engagement, like, they write content specifically to drive views or comments or followers or whatever. And they've got way more followers than I have. But I just can't make myself do that. Like, I just have no interest in writing garbage or engagement bait. And that's maybe to my detriment.
哦，当然了。我的意思是，那就是一切开始的方式。你知道，我觉得我和很多推特上的同行不太一样，从一开始，我就说过，我写作的对象只有一个，就是我自己。只要我自己对作品满意，那就足够了。而且我一直坚持这个原则，现在三年过去了，效果还不错。但说实话，我确实看到一些朋友能够真正学会写作以获得更多互动。他们写作的内容专门用来吸引点击、评论或关注者，他们的关注者比我多得多。但我就是无法让自己这样做。我对编写垃圾内容或制造互动陷阱没有任何兴趣。也许这对我不利。

But what I will say is, the nice thing about, you know, sticking to your guns is the followers that, you know, the 50,000 or whatever followers that I do have, they follow me because they truly enjoy my content. They don't follow me because I posted a clever piece of clickbait. And so that's something I'm proud of. But yes, I mean, I started off with zero followers. This is really during the beginning of the pandemic. And, you know, you're shouting into the void, you're commenting on other people's posts. And it's like, it's one of those like slowly then all at once. It's kind of a snowball effect. I would say like anything in life, consistency is key.
但是我要说的是，坚持自己的想法的好处是，我的粉丝（大约五万人）关注我是因为他们真正喜欢我的内容。他们不是因为我发了一篇聪明的标题党文章而关注我。这是我引以为豪的地方。但是，是的，我一开始是零粉丝。那时正值疫情初期。你在虚空中大声呼喊，评论其他人的帖子。就像是那种慢慢地然后突然爆发的雪球效应。我会说，就像生活中的任何事情一样，始终如一是关键。

I agree. I think people lose a little authenticity when they do the clickbait tweets. And Kevin Kelly had a great article on 1000 True Fans. I don't know if you've come across that before, but it's great, great article just about being authentic and crafting stuff that your fans are going to love. I think that's what you've done. What I find really valuable and helpful is just like, you know, you've got a great message that you're consistent with and it's just great content. So you've got true fans.
我同意。我觉得当人们发布点击率的推文时，会失去一些真实性。而凯文·凯利（Kevin Kelly）的文章《一千真实粉丝》写得非常好。不知道你之前是否有看过，但这是一篇非常出色的文章，关于如何做到真实，并制作让你的粉丝喜爱的内容。我觉得你做到了这点。我发现非常有价值和有帮助的是，你有一条伟大的信息，保持一贯，并提供了出色的内容。所以你有真正的粉丝。

Yeah, for your listeners, I highly recommend reading that essay. Just Google 1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly. And he wrote that article, by the way, in 2008. And the basic idea behind that article was, Hey, these days with the internet, if you can amass 1000 fans who are like really true fans of yours, you can make a living. And the article was actually a little bit ahead of its time because that wasn't really true at the time he wrote it. But I actually believe now in 2023, if you have 1000 True Fans, you actually can find ways to monetize and make a living off of that. And so it's an amazing world we live in now.
是的，对于你的听众，我强烈推荐阅读那篇文章。只需要在谷歌上搜索“1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly”就能找到。顺便说一下，这篇文章是在2008年写的。文章背后的基本理念是，嘿，如今有了互联网，如果你能积累起1000个真正狂热的粉丝，你就可以谋生了。事实上，当他写这篇文章时，这并不完全正确，但我实际上相信到了2023年，如果你拥有1000个真正的粉丝，你实际上可以找到方法来实现盈利并谋生。所以我们现在所生活的世界是多么神奇啊。

But I absolutely agree with you that, you know, I'd rather have one true fan than 100 sort of casual followers or people who are following me for the wrong reason. Do you have any other writing resources that have been helpful for you on crafting a practice? Something that comes to mind real quick for me is the morning pages. I don't know if you've ever done those.
但是我绝对同意你的观点，你知道的，我宁愿拥有一个真正的粉丝，也不愿拥有100个仅仅是随意关注我的人或因错误原因而关注我的人。你有其他对你在写作实践中有帮助的资源吗？对我来说，很快想到的是晨间写作。我不知道你是否尝试过这个方法。

I'll be honest, I'm a little bit of an outlier in this, in that I'm not a big like book learner. So everything I do, I tend to learn by doing. And I definitely draw inspiration from other writers that I admire. And a lot of them are on Twitter. But I haven't really done any structure. I haven't really used any structure approach to improving my writing or learning. So yeah, I really couldn't point out any resources.
说实话，我在这方面有点与众不同，因为我并不是一个喜欢书本学习的人。所以我做任何事情都是通过实践来学习的。我肯定会从我敬佩的其他作家那里获得灵感，而且其中很多人都在推特上。但是我并没有按照任何结构方法来提升我的写作或学习。所以，是的，我真的无法指出任何资源。

Yeah, that's one I would mention Julia Cameron, I think is the author's name. And it's just a daily practice of writing three pages, just kind of stream of consciousness, almost just journaling just whatever is on your head, you know, getting it down on the on the page and creative stuff starts to come out.
是的，这是我会提到的一个人，我想作者的名字叫朱莉娅·卡梅隆。这只是一个每天写三页的日常练习，几乎是像写日记一样的随意流露思绪，将脑中的任何东西记录下来，开始创造性的想法会慢慢涌现出来。

One thing I'd say though, and I'm going to be a little bit of a contrarian here is three pages is a big ask. Like, I think that's a non starter for most people. Like most people simply aren't going to do this. Great to say, but start with like one sentence, literally, like write a sentence down. And that you think is kind of interesting or clever. And then build from there.
有一件事我想说，或许有些不同意的观点是，写三页内容要求有点过多。我认为对大多数人来说，这是不太可能完成的任务。虽然这样说很好听，但是先试着写下一句话，确切地说，就是写一个你觉得有趣或巧妙的句子。然后从那句话开始展开构思。

And the other thing I'd say is one of my pet peeves, and it happens a lot in today's world of like, there's unlimited podcasts you can listen to, there's tons of business books. And I think often people try to substitute doing with learning. And you know, they listen to all the podcasts, they read all the books, but they never actually do anything. And it becomes a former procrastination. So in anything that you do, my advice is have a massive bias toward action. Like, literally before you think like, how can I educate myself? Just go do it. And then you'll understand exactly what you need to be educated on.
另外一件事我要说的是我的一个小恼火点，而且在今天的世界里经常发生，比如有无数的播客可以听，有大量的商业书籍。我觉得人们经常试图用学习来替代行动。他们听了所有的播客，读了所有的书，但实际上从来没有真正去做任何事情。这变成了一种拖延行为。所以，在任何事情上，我的建议是倾向于行动。就是，在你还在思考“我该如何充实自己知识”的时候，就去做吧。然后你会明确地知道你需要在哪方面增加知识。

Let's get into the next thing that you focus on that you wrote about in the tweet, which was the importance of not doing dumb things. This kind of reminds me of a Charlie Munger thing about like, he just doesn't want to make stupid decisions, basically. Talk about some of the dumb decisions that you see younger people make that you just kind of want to shake them things that maybe you did in your own life.
让我们来谈谈你在推文中写到的下一个你关注的事情，也就是不做蠢事的重要性。这让我想到了查理·芒格的一件事，就是他根本不想做愚蠢的决定。请谈谈你看到的年轻人所犯的一些蠢事，这些也许是你自己在生活中曾经犯过的事情，你想要劝导他们的。

Yeah, you know, there's a lot of talk about the things you should do, like the strategies for success. But there's not much talk about the things you should not do, like the things you should avoid. And in my opinion, those are equally important. And I see young people making mistakes like that all the time. We actually talked about some of them when we were talking about the fire movement and personal finance. Like a lot of them have to do with just making dumb financial moves. Like, you know, I'm going to say something probably a little bit provocative and controversial, but you know, student loans are a great example, is that, you know, if you're going to take out student loans, you better make sure that you're doing it for a career that will allow you to pay those back pretty darn quickly. And a lot of people do or running up credit card debt for buying things that aren't assets, you know, and things like that that can actually what ends up happening, particularly when it comes to finance, is they keep you from freedom, they trap you into now having to do things that you probably don't want to do for a lot longer than you otherwise would. And so yeah, I'm a huge advocate of don't do things that make your life miserable.
是的，你知道，有很多关于你应该做的事情的讨论，比如成功的策略。但是关于你不应该做的事情，比如你应该避免的事情，却很少有人谈论。而在我看来，这些同样重要。我常常看到年轻人犯这样的错误。我们在谈论“火力派”运动和个人财务时，实际上已经谈到了一些这样的错误。就像很多与愚蠢的金融举动有关。比如，我要说的可能有点具有争议和挑衅性，但是你知道，学生贷款就是一个很好的例子。如果你要申请学生贷款，你最好确保你为的是一个能够让你很快还清贷款的职业。很多人会通过购买非资产的东西迅速积累信用卡债务，诸如此类的事情实际上会导致，特别是在财务方面，它们阻止你从自由中解脱出来，让你被困在必须做你可能并不想做的事情中比你预计的时间更长。所以，是的，我非常主张不要做让你的生活变得糟糕的事情。

And you know, you could talk about devices, addictions, whatever, you keep those things in check. And that's, you know, for some people, I would argue that's the more important side of the equation is to stop doing unproductive, unhealthy, toxic things.
你知道，你可以谈论设备、成瘾，或是其他任何事情，但要把这些事情控制住。对于某些人来说，我认为这是方程式中更重要的一边，即停止做那些无效、不健康且有害的事情。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
让我们稍作休息，并听一听今天的赞助商所说的话。

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All right, back to the show, which takes me to your next point, which is the and kind of ties into minimalism, but the importance of keeping a low burn rate, not getting yourself into financial troubles that you've got to lead a life that you don't really love and don't want to be leading, which often happens. Yeah, it's a consumption trap, right? And you know, this is hard wired in me because I grew up in an environment in a childhood where the future was always so uncertain. And so I have a bit of a depression to air of mindset and that even though I'm a wealthy person, I still keep our burn rate quite low with the option to reduce it even lower if I needed to, which is a little bit, I guess, doesn't even make sense necessarily at this point in my life, because I don't have to, but it makes me sleep well at night.
好的，回到节目正题，这让我想到了你接下来要提到的一个观点，也与极简主义相关，那就是保持低消费率的重要性，不要陷入财务困境，过着你不真正喜欢也不想要的生活，这种情况经常发生。是的，这就是消费陷阱，对吧？而且你知道，这种思维方式在我身上根深蒂固，因为我在一个环境中长大，那个环境下，未来总是如此不确定。所以尽管我是一个富有的人，但我仍然保持相当低的消费率，甚至可以在需要的时候进一步减少，尽管在我现在的生活阶段可能无需如此，但这让我晚上可以睡得安稳。

And so, and again, as you mentioned, it ties into this idea of minimalism where what you realize is actually the, you know, less is more like you're actually not, you're not more miserable when you do less and spend less, you're more happy.
因此，正如你所提及的，这与极简主义的概念相结合，你会意识到实际上少即是多，你并不会在做得少和花费更少的时候变得更痛苦，反而会更幸福。

Yeah, and it just keeping that low burn rate just gives you optionality in life, like it just gives you tremendous more choices than you would otherwise.
是的，保持低燃费只是给你在生活中更多的选择权，它为你提供了比其他情况下更多的选择。

Absolutely. Mark Cuban actually preaches about that. He's like, if you're trapped financially, then you're going to miss out on all the opportunities that come your way because you're just not in a position to pursue them.
没错。马克·库班实际上也是这样宣扬的。他说，如果你陷入了经济困境，那么你将错过所有出现的机会，因为你无法追求它们。

Let's move on to your next point, which was the importance of finding your happy place and tribe in your own case. You were living, I think in like suburbs of Dallas, moved to Boulder, you found your people with climbing, talk about the importance of doing that for people and the challenges of it.
我们接下来转向你提到的下一个要点，即在你个人案例中找到快乐之地和族群的重要性。我想你之前居住在达拉斯的郊区，然后搬到了博尔德，在攀岩中找到了志同道合的人。谈谈为人们做到这一点的重要性和其中面临的挑战。

Yeah, I'm glad you talked about the place and the tribe together because they are, they really are very intertwined. And I have a somewhat contrarian or I guess maybe unpopular point of view on this, which is I actually believe the place where you live is as important, maybe even more important than your choice of life partner. And the reason for that is your life partner, let's say your wife or my wife, they can only influence your happiness so much. In fact, if you're relying on your partner to be happy, that's probably recipe for disaster anyway. But the place you live, I refer to it as your aquarium, you're literally immersed in it 24 seven, it influences everything that you do.
是的，我很高兴你把地方和部落放在一起讨论，因为它们实际上非常紧密地相互关联。对于这点，我持有一种有些与众不同或可能不太受欢迎的观点，那就是我认为你居住的地方和你选择的生活伴侣一样重要，甚至可能更重要。原因在于你的生活伴侣，比如你的妻子或我的妻子，对你的幸福只能产生有限的影响。事实上，如果你依赖你的伴侣来获得幸福，那可能是一种灾难的征兆。但是你居住的地方，我称之为你的“鱼缸”，你每天都身临其境，它会影响你所做的一切。

And one of the things that it influences is the community. So for a grammar grade example, where I discovered rock climbing, you know, 25 years ago, for many years, I lived in Dallas and made it work, even though Dallas is a terrible place for a rock climber to live. It was very difficult for me to build a community of other climbers. And then finally, I moved to Boulder. And it was like a huge tailwind behind me all of a sudden, like, I'm literally staring out my window right now at rock. There's a huge community of rock climbers here. They're motivated, they're easy to meet. And so everything, it's like the rising tide that floats all boats, everything just gets better when you live in your happy place. Yet, so many people simply live where they live, because that's where they live. And they have a vague notion that they'd like to be somewhere else, but they'll never take action on it. And so it's a huge thing for me is like, if you don't love where you live, then I have the courage to move. And there's lots of reasons not to move, lots of excuses, family work, whatever. I have found that where there's a will, there's a way. And if you really want to do it, you can find a way to make it work.
其中一件它影响的事情就是社区。所以举个语法等级的例子，就是我25年前发现攀岩的时候，很多年我住在达拉斯，尽管达拉斯对于一个攀岩者来说是一个非常糟糕的地方。对我来说，建立一个与其他攀岩者的社区非常困难。然后最终，我搬到了博尔德。突然之间，就像是一股巨大的顺风助力，我现在就能透过窗户看到岩石。这里有一个庞大的攀岩社区。他们有动力，容易相识。所以当你住在你喜欢的地方时，一切都变得更好，就像是涨潮一样，能够升高所有的船只。然而，很多人只是简单地住在他们所在的地方，因为那里是他们所在的地方。他们模糊地认识到他们想去别的地方，但却从不会采取行动。所以对我来说，这是一个非常重要的事情，即如果你不喜欢你住的地方，那我鼓励你有勇气搬家。搬家有很多理由可以不去做，有很多借口，比如家庭、工作等。但我发现只要有意愿，就会有办法。如果你真的想做，你可以找到一种方法来实现它。

Can you talk about how you went about it or how you'd recommend somebody that's living in some place? Maybe they grew up in, they haven't left their hometown, they don't like it. How do they go about finding a good place, maybe taking little experiments to figure out where they want to be?
你能谈谈你是如何去做的或者你如何建议那些生活在某个地方的人吗？也许他们在那里长大，从未离开过自己的家乡，但又不喜欢它。他们应该如何寻找一个适合自己的好地方，也许可以进行一些小试验来弄清楚他们想去哪里？

Yeah, no, I think it's worth like you should definitely visit some places and find your happy place. And there's a lot of factors to consider it sort of individualized. I think before we started recording, I'd mentioned that, you know, we did a trial run of a month in Boulder before we moved here.
是的，我认为这很值得，就像你应该一定要去一些地方找到自己的快乐之处。而且有很多因素需要考虑，这是个因人而异的决定。我在我们开始录音之前提到过，我们在搬到这里之前在博尔德试住了一个月。

And in our case, it was a no-brainer, because if you're a rock climber or you're into the outdoors and you're still doing business stuff, Boulder really is like, it's not even close. Boulder's at the top of the list because you've got a major university here, you've got a business community, you've got a major airport, 30 minutes away, world-class climbing, running, trail running, everything, right at your doorstep, great weather throughout the year. So those are all the factors we weighed. And it was a no-brainer for us.
在我们的情况下，选择那里几乎是不需要思考的，因为如果你是一位攀岩者或者热爱户外活动，同时还在经营自己的事务，那么博尔德简直是首选中的首选。博尔德之所以是首选，是因为这里有一所重要的大学，拥有一个商业社区，同时也有一个主要的机场，距离这里只有30分钟的车程，世界级的攀岩、跑步和步道运动等应有尽有，门庭若市，全年天气宜人。所以这些都是我们考虑的各项因素。对我们来说，选择博尔德是一个再容易不过的决定了。

But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what I would say to people is start taking baby steps, you know, go explore a place, see what it feels like to live there, start doing the research, start getting your finances in order so that you can do it.
嗯，我是说，我认为你要对人们说的是要开始迈出小步子，你知道的，去探索一个地方，看看在那里生活的感觉如何，开始做研究，开始整理你的财务状况，以便能够实现这个目标。

In my case, I waited way too long and basically just ripped the bandaid off. Like just said, look, we're moving. And to be honest, like my family wasn't even completely aligned on this, but it was something that I needed, you know, I was in my 40s at the time. And it's something I needed. And, you know, sometimes you have to make hard decisions on behalf of your family that may not be popular. You fast forward five years now. And my family loves living here. You know, it's like, of course, this is better than living in the suburbs of Dallas.
在我个人的情况下，我等待的时间过长，基本上只是强迫自己下定决心。就像我刚才说的，我说，看，我们要搬家。而且说实话，我的家人甚至并不完全同意这个决定，但这是我需要的，你知道的，当时我已经40多岁了。这是我需要的。有时候，你必须代表你的家人做出艰难的决定，可能并不受欢迎。现在快进五年了。我的家人喜欢住在这里。你知道，这当然比住在达拉斯的郊区要好。

Changes hard though, you know, I'm sure you've got two girls. They probably had, you know, their friends in Dallas, all of that. Like, that initial step is you're going to get some pushback, I think, and that's to be expected in most people's cases. Changes hard, but people need to remember that all the good stuff goes to those who are willing to be brave and make bold moves, right? All the spoils go to the bold.
虽然改变很难，但你知道的，我相信你有两个女儿。她们可能有朋友在达拉斯，诸如此类的。就像，刚开始的时候你可能会遇到一些阻力，我想大多数人都会有这种情况。改变很难，但人们需要记住，所有好的东西都属于那些愿意勇敢并采取大胆行动的人，对吧？胆大者得全胜。

Let's go to your next point here that you say is important for living a great life. And that's helping others, having an abundance mentality. That's one thing I've loved about being on Twitter, real estate Twitter, or small business Twitter, whatever it is. People really have this abundance mentality of sharing their playbook, answering DMs. Talk a little bit about in your own life, how service helping others kind of looks for you.
我们来谈谈你所说的对过上美好生活很重要的下一个观点，那就是帮助他人和拥有富足心态。这是我在推特上喜欢的一点，无论是地产推特还是小企业推特，不论是什么领域，人们真的拥有这种分享他们的成功经验和回答私信的丰富心态。请谈谈在你自己的生活中，帮助他人的服务是如何展现的。

Yeah, the secret is that helping others is actually kind of a selfish endeavor. Because the thing that most people don't realize is when you help somebody else, you are the biggest beneficiary, both directly just in terms of the way it makes you feel and the fulfillment you feel from that. But even if you play the long game, the good things you do always come back to benefit you. And you can call it karma, you can call it whatever you want. But I've seen it happen over and over as you're putting positive energy out there, you're helping others, everybody wins. And so that's on my ideal in-state life list that is explicitly listed as something that I want to make a priority.
是的，秘密就在于帮助他人其实是一种自私的行为。因为大多数人不明白的是，当你帮助别人时，你是最大的受益者，无论是直接的感受还是从中获得的满足感。而且，即使你采取了长远的目标，你所做的善行始终会回报给你。你可以称之为因果报应，也可以随自己喜好称呼。但我一次又一次地看到，当你散发积极的能量，帮助他人时，每个人都是赢家。所以，这是我在理想生活清单上明确列出的一个我要优先关注的事项。

And to be honest, that is what Twitter has largely become for me. So I still have a policy today that I still hold to, even though it's a lot of work, which is I respond to all DMs. And I end up spending hours every week doing that. So it is a burden. But I view it as an honor and a responsibility that I have. If I'm going to put this content out there, I need to be able to help people understand and implement it in their own lives. And so that's become an incredible conduit for me. And honestly, again, back to this idea of it being sort of a selfish endeavor, the feedback I get, I just got a message from a guy the other day, he said, Hey, just checking back in at five months later, you gave me this advice. Here's the changes I made. And it's worked out better than I expected. I get chills right now just talking about that. That's what it's all about for me. Super satisfying. It feels great. So I just really commend guys like you. There's other song Twitter that do the same, but it does take a ton of time to answer DMs. And you know, it's very generous. So thank you for doing that. You answered mine. So I appreciate it.
说实话，这就是Twitter对我来说的主要用途。所以今天我仍然坚持一项原则，即回复所有私信。每周我会花几个小时的时间来回复私信，虽然这是一种负担，但我把它视为一种荣誉和责任。如果我选择将这些内容公之于众，我需要能够帮助人们理解并在他们自己的生活中实施。因此，这对我来说成为了一个非常重要的渠道。说实话，再次回到这个自私的想法，我收到的反馈非常震撼。前几天我收到一个男孩的信息，他说：“嗨，五个月后再来看看，你给了我这个建议。这是我所期望的更好的改变。”现在我光是谈论这件事都让我感到很激动。这对我来说就是一切。非常满足和有成就感。所以我真的很赞赏像你这样的人。还有其他在Twitter上做同样事情的人，但回复私信确实需要很多时间，所以谢谢你能做到这一点。你回复了我的私信，我很感激。

Well, again, like, it makes me a little uncomfortable when people say that, even though it is flattering, because to be honest, like a lot of it is just selfishly motivated. It's like, it just feels so good to do that that I want more and more and more. Makes sense.
嗯，再说一遍，就是，当人们这样说时，虽然这很讨人喜欢，但我感到有点不舒服，因为说实话，其中很多都只是出于自私的动机。就好像，做这件事感觉真的很好，让我渴望着更多、更多、再多一些。这是有道理的。

The next list or the next item on the list was to avoid toxicity, avoid the haters, get toxic people out of your life, whether it's social media or in real life. Can you go into that a little bit about how you've gone about doing that, maybe how you handle negativity and haters online?
下一个清单或清单上的下一项是避免毒性，避免讨厌的人，将有毒的人从你的生活中清除，无论是在社交媒体上还是现实生活中。你能谈一下你是怎样做到的，也许你如何应对网络上的负面和讨厌者？

Yeah, so I'm going to expand it beyond online to just life in general, because this is a lesson I wish I had taken to heart many years earlier, is I think we have a tendency to cling to relationships or even or maybe just let them linger with people who are taking energy from us. And I've really become convicted that in any relationship, there has to be at least an equal energy exchange. Like, you have to be able to get back as much energy as you give. And it's always, you know, of course, in different ways. And it's not always balanced in the short run, but over the long run, there has to be an exchange and it's setting boundaries if that's not the case.
是的，所以我将把它扩展到生活的方方面面，因为这是一堂我希望多年前就能铭记于心的课程，我认为我们有一种倾向，会与那些从我们身上汲取能量的人保持关系，甚至让这种关系继续存在。而我现在深信，在任何一段关系中，能量的交流必须至少是相等的。也就是说，你必须能够得到与你给予的能量相当的回馈。当然，这种平衡可能在短期内并不总是存在，但在长期内必须有一种交流，如果没有的话，我们就需要设定界限。

So, you know, again, having grown up amongst a lot of toxic relationships, it's been life changing for me personally to set boundaries and hold to them and really think about, you know, who's in your inner circle and to curate that very, very carefully. You want people who can basically who are positive and will help you grow as a person. And so, you know, no bad vibes are allowed in my my inner certain doesn't mean you don't have problems and you don't, you know, tackle them and help each other out. But again, in general, the relationships have to be a positive energy exchange.
所以，你知道，再次地，由于在许多有毒关系中成长，对我个人来说，设立并坚守边界，真正思考你的内圈是由谁组成，并且精心筛选非常重要，这对我来说是人生的巨大改变。你想要的是那些能够帮助你成长的积极的人。所以，你知道，在我的内圈中不允许有负能量存在，这并不意味着你没有问题，你不相互帮助解决问题。但是，总体而言，这些关系必须是积极的能量交流。

Yeah, it's the cliche about being and it's true, but it is a cliche about being the average of the five people that you're around the most. So it's important to curate that very carefully. So true. Yeah, it really is true.
是的，这就是关于生活的陈词滥调，也是真的，但它是关于你周围最多的五个人的平均水平的陈词滥调。所以选择这些人非常重要。非常正确。是的，真的是如此。

So next point on here was the ability to say no, and this is a little bit kind of tight into that, just the ability to set boundaries. Talk about how you've gone about that. I'm sure you get a lot of requests on your time, your energy, your money. How do you think about saying no to things?
下一个问题是关于有能力说不的能力，这与设定边界有一定的联系。请谈谈你是如何处理这方面的事情的。我相信你会得到很多关于时间、精力和金钱方面的请求。对于这些请求，你是如何考虑是否拒绝的？

Yeah, I think I think there's a seasons of life aspect to this. So I wrote something about this a while back where when you're younger, you need to be saying yes to most things, like within reason, because you need to kind of put yourself out there, explore opportunities. But when you get older, let's say in your 40s, 50s and beyond, you're going to find yourself needing to say no more than yes. And what it's really about is just living your priorities. If you say that something is a priority, you can't do everything. So if you say that something is a priority, by definition, that means you have to say yes to things that align to that priority and say no to things that don't. And so that's again, one of the huge benefits of defining that ideal in state life, it makes it really easy to know what to say yes and what to say no to. And once you have real clarity on that, you're going to get really good at saying no to things.
是的，我觉得这个问题涉及到人生的不同阶段。我以前写过一些关于这个话题的东西，当你年轻的时候，你需要对大部分事情都说“是”，当然要合理，因为你需要投身其中，探索机会。但当你年纪渐长，比如在四五十岁以及之后，你会发现自己需要说“不”多于说“是”。这实际上是关于过好自己的生活重心。如果你说某件事是重要的，那就不能做所有事情。所以，如果你认为某件事是重要的，那意味着你必须对与该重要事务相符的事情说“是”，并对与之不符的事情说“不”。因此，这也是明确设定理想状态生活的巨大好处之一，它让你很容易知道什么时候该说“是”、什么时候该说“不”。一旦你对此有了真正的清晰认识，你会变得很擅长拒绝事物。

I want to get into your podcast. It's called compounding. And that's one of the other items on your list on how to live a great life. Talk about how, why you named it compounding. It's a great podcast. I'll put links in the show notes to some of the episodes that I've listened to that I thought were really great. But go into that a little bit about compounding and the importance of it.
我想参与你的播客节目，它叫做《复利》。这也是你在如何过上美好生活清单上的另一项内容。谈谈你为什么选择了《复利》这个名称以及它的重要性。这是一档很棒的播客节目。我将在节目说明中放入我听过的一些非常出色的集数的链接。但是，请稍微详细地讲讲什么是复利以及它的重要性。

Yeah. So my podcast is called compounding. The reason it's called compounding is I just kind of think that's the key to everything in life. You know, small consistent effort over time becomes exponential, whether you're talking about money or fitness or relationships, whatever you're talking about.
是的。所以我的播客叫做"复利"。之所以取这个名字，是因为我觉得这是生活中的万能钥匙。你知道的，小小的、持续的努力随着时间的推移会变得指数级增长，不论是指钱财、健身还是人际关系，任何你所说的事情。

The idea behind my podcast was to talk to exceptional people who have built great lives. Now, not just had success in whatever career field they've chosen, but have built great lives. My podcast is quite different from most in the sense that number one, I do all of them face to face. I just think there's a dynamic that happens when you're face to face that doesn't happen through Zoom. But as a result of that, I do very few podcasts. Like in the two years, compounding has been around. I only have seven episodes. So I've really had to focus on quality over quantity. I'm really proud of each and every episode. And that really is the basis is like talking to people and learning from people who have been there and done it so that we can apply those lessons in our lives and start compounding the same way.
我播客的理念是与那些建立了美好生活的非凡人物交谈。不仅仅是在他们选择的职业领域取得了成功，而是真正建立了美好的生活。与其他大部分播客不同的是，我的播客其一，都是面对面采访。我觉得当面对面交流时，会有一种动态效果，通过Zoom无法实现。但由于这个原因，播客的数量非常少。比如在过去两年中，我只有七集节目。因此，我真的必须把重点放在质量上，而不是数量上。我对每一集都感到非常自豪。这的确是基础，就是与那些曾经经历并成功的人交谈，从他们身上学到东西，以便我们能够将这些经验运用到自己的生活中，并开始以同样的方式不断积累。

There are great books kind of to that speak to this. Atomic habits comes to mind about just 1% improvements, incremental improvements, and how over time the exponential growth of whatever habit you choose, whether it's money or fitness or whatever, you know, it's pretty incredible the growth after a longer period of time. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm 52 years old and I will say my life is a testament to stacking 1% gains. And if there's anything that sets me apart from my peers, it's that I never stop. Like I kept doing things consistently in a sustainable way. And what happens is over time, that doesn't just put you 10% ahead of people. That puts you 10x ahead. And you know, I'm not bragging, but I'm saying when you look at various aspects of my life, I feel like, you know, a lot of the people who were my peers 10 years ago are no longer my peers simply because of compounding.
有些很棒的书对这个问题进行了探讨。《微习惯》就是一个很好的例子，它讲述了只通过 1% 的改进、持续逐步提升，以及随着时间推移，无论你选择建立什么样的习惯——无论是钱财、健康还是其他方面——都会产生指数级的增长，这一点相当不可思议。是的，我的生活是 52 岁的一个见证，我可以说，我成功地实现了 1% 的增长累积。如果有什么让我与同龄人不同的地方，那就是我从未停止。我一直以不间断、可持续的方式坚持做事。随着时间的推移，这不仅使我超过其他人 10%，而是超过他们 10 倍。我不是在吹嘘，但是当你看看我的生活的各个方面时，你会发现，我感觉我过去的同龄人很多都已经不再是我的同行了，这只是因为复利的作用而已。

Maybe it's you. I can't remember who, but somebody said that the flex as you get older is being in really great shape rather than having a whatever, great title or salary or something like that.
也许就是你了。我记不清是谁说的，但有人说随着年龄增长，强项变成了身体真的处于很好状态，而不是拥有某种了不起的头衔、工资或其他什么东西。

Yeah, no, I said the tweet was, you know, under 40, money is a flex over 40 fitness is a flex. Because if you're once you're over 40, lots of people have money like in big titles and whatever, but not many people have money and are really fit or really good at some other craft.
是的，我说过推文是那样的，你懂的，当你还不满40岁时，金钱是一种炫耀，而超过40岁后，身体健康才是一种炫耀。因为一旦你超过40岁，很多人拥有金钱，拥有高职位或其他什么的，但是很少有人既有钱又真正健康或真正擅长某种手艺。

So that brings me to the next point about three behaviors that you wrote about that would elevate anybody above 95% of all people. Can you go into what those three things were?
那么，接下来我要谈谈你写下的三种行为，这些行为能让任何人胜过95%的人。你能详细说明一下这三件事是什么吗？

Yeah, and this was really just a funny way of highlighting the fact that the bar is so low out there, folks. Like, if you want to get ahead in life, I'd said you just need to do three things. And this is very sincere.
是的，这其实只是一种有趣的方式来强调社会对标准要求很低。比如说，如果你想在生活中取得成功，我认为你只需要做三件事。而且我是非常真诚地这样说的。

So number one is show up on time every time. So just being reliable and consistent and showing up on time, that already probably puts you in the top 20%.
首先，准时出现每一次都很重要。所以只要可靠、始终如一、准时出现，这样你很有可能就位居前20%之列。

Keep your promises, right? So if you say you're going to do something, do it. Now you're in the top 10% probably, or if not 5%.
遵守你的承诺，对吧？所以如果你说会做某事，就要付诸行动。现在你可能已经进入了前10%，或者至少前5%。

And then show enthusiasm for whatever you do. And those three things, I believe actually, if you do those three things consistently, you're in the top 1% of human beings. And it seems so simple, yet it's so rare for people to do those things.
然后，无论你做什么，都要表现出热情。我相信这三件事，如果你能始终如一地做到，你就是人类中的百分之一的顶级人物。虽然它看起来很简单，但是人们很少能够做到这些。

I had a friend of my dad, he took his son to the DMV when he turned 16. And he was like, son, look around here. This is your competition. This is who you have to be. And like you said, it's a fairly low bar if you do those three things. Well, honestly, even among successful, quote unquote, successful people, I'm astonished at how few people can actually just manage their time and show up.
我父亲有个朋友，当他儿子16岁的时候，他带他去了车辆管理局。他对儿子说：“儿子，看看这里的人吧，这些人就是你的竞争对手。你需要成为这些人一样。”就像你所说的，只要做这三件事情，这个要求其实相当低。老实说，即使在成功（打引号）的人当中，我对于那些能够管理好时间和准时出现的人的数量感到惊讶。

It's not that hard, like just to show up on time for things. Or if you say you're going to do something, just do it. And you know, we're all busy. We all have that excuse that's convenient. But you either commit to keeping your promises or you don't. So yeah, I mean, it's almost impossible to not have success if you do those three things.
这并不难，例如准时出席事物。或者如果你说要做某事，就去做。你知道，我们都很忙。我们都有合适的借口。但无论如何，你要么承诺信守承诺，要么就不要承诺。所以没错，如果你能做到这三点，几乎不可能不成功。

Good points. I want to get into this next one, which is the importance of seeking truth or the importance of exploring religion. This was a topic that you went into with one of your guests pretty deeply that I loved. So can you talk a little bit about that exploring religion, exploring and the search for truth and how that's shown up in your life?
好的观点。我想谈谈下一个话题，即寻求真理的重要性或探索宗教的重要性。这是你和一位嘉宾深入探讨过的一个话题，我很喜欢。所以你能谈谈关于探索宗教、探索和追寻真理在你生活中的表现吗？

Yeah, I mean, I like to think of myself as first and foremost, a truth seeker. I'm a Christian. So from religious standpoint, that is what I practice. But even from a broader standpoint, I think that like you have to have a real lack of imagination to not believe there's a lot more to this universe than we understand, right? I mean, you know, we learn more and more every day with the James Webb Space Telescope or whatever, like just how many billions, if not trillions of galaxies there are out there in all likelihood, there are many, many billions, tens of billions of Earth-like planets. There's probably life out like, what's the meaning of all this? Like, where did it all come from?
是的，我的意思是，首先我认为自己是一个真相追寻者。我是一个基督徒。所以从宗教的角度来看，那是我所信仰的。但即使从更广泛的角度来看，我认为你必须缺乏想象力才能不相信这个宇宙有着比我们所理解的更多的东西。你知道的，我们每天通过詹姆斯·韦伯太空望远镜等等的学到越来越多，我们了解到存在着多少十亿，甚至万亿的星系，以及有多少十亿，甚至数百亿个类似地球的行星。可能存在着生命，那么这一切的意义是什么？一切从何而来？

And I think like, at some point in life, you really got to start thinking about these bigger issues and make some decisions for yourself. And so, you know, I'm not one to push religion on anything. Anybody, in fact, I never talk about it on my Twitter account. But all I encourage people to do is like, find your own truth.
我认为，在生活的某个阶段，你真的需要开始思考这些更重大的问题，并为自己做出一些决定。所以，你知道，我不是一个会把宗教强加给任何人的人。事实上，我从不在我的Twitter账号上谈论宗教。但我只鼓励人们去找到自己的真理。

Like, you know, start asking those questions, start educating yourself because, you know, there's so much out there that is a mystery and that can't be explained by, you know, by humans or by science. And it's just absolutely fascinating to learn about whether it's outer space or religions, the different world religions and philosophies, like all of it is super interesting and beneficial to anybody to learn more about and study. I think so. Like, I think it's way more interesting.
就像你知道的，开始提出那些问题，开始自我教育，因为你知道的，有很多事情是一个谜团，无法通过人类或科学来解释的。而且，学习这些东西绝对是非常迷人的，无论是外太空还是不同的世界宗教和哲学，都非常有趣且对任何人来说都是有益的去更多的了解和学习。我是这么认为的，就像，我认为这更有趣。

So I'll use this as an opportunity to talk about something because it ties into this idea of being multi-dimensional. So I've gone on a few, like I would call high-end guys retreats, where like a bunch of successful business guys go away for the weekend. We go to Santa Barbara or we go to Mexico or whatever, you know, your listeners can probably guess at some of the types of groups I'm talking about.
所以我会利用这个机会谈一谈一些事情，因为它与多维度的概念有关。所以我参加了几次，我会称之为高端男人的休闲之旅，就是一群成功的商人们在周末离开去度假的活动。我们会去圣巴巴拉或者去墨西哥，你的听众也许可以猜到我在说哪些类型的群体。

And the problem I have with those is they're insanely boring to me because a lot of these guys just want to sit around and talk about business 12 hours a day. And God bless them. Like, I'm sure that's going to help them be successful in that endeavor. But when I'm hanging out with people, I want to talk about a lot more, like, I love business, but I lose interest in that after a few hours and I want to move on to other subjects. I like to talk about these bigger topics.
我对这些人的问题在于，对我来说，他们太无聊了，因为很多人只想一天坐在那里谈论生意十二个小时。愿上帝保佑他们。我相信这会帮助他们在这个方面取得成功。但是当我和人们一起出去的时候，我想要谈论更多的事情，比如，我喜欢商业，但是几个小时后，我就对此失去了兴趣，我想要谈论其他话题。我喜欢谈论这些更大的议题。

And it's something that just doesn't happen much anymore. So that's a little bit of a pet peeve of mine is like, look, if you owe it to yourself, to at least like, ultimately, a lot of the things we do in the day-to-day world, especially in the business world, they add up to nothing at the end of the day. Like on your deathbed, all that stuff adds up to nothing.
这是一件现在很少发生的事情。所以，这是我的一点小烦恼，就是说，看，如果你欠这个自己的，至少要最终做到，我们在日常生活中做的很多事情，尤其是在商业世界中，到最后都变得毫无意义。就像在你临终的时刻，所有这些东西都算不了什么。

What adds up to something back to our original point was experiences, relationships, and some of the big ideas and thoughts you've had over your life.
归根结底，形成我们最初观点的是我们在生命中的经历、人际关系以及一些重要的想法和思考。

Next one that I know obviously is super important to you being a rock climber is the importance of getting outside, being in nature, getting in touch with whatever our caveman tendencies are, you know, rootedness to the earth.
下一个我知道的，显然对你作为一个攀岩者来说非常重要的是，走出室内，融入大自然，与我们远古时代的本能接触，你知道的，与大地相连接的根基。

Can you go into that?
你可以进一步说明一下吗？

Yeah, I mean, for all of humanity's history, we evolved to live in harmony with nature and with the sun. And what's crazy is like, modern man has existed for roughly 300,000 years. Only in the past 50 years have we really retreated indoors and live under artificial lights, never come into contact with nature. It's kind of insane if you think about it, to think that that won't end really poorly. And we're seeing the results of that in our health, right? All these chronic conditions.
是的，我的意思是，人类历史上的每个阶段，我们都在与自然和太阳和谐相处中进化。然而不可思议的是，现代人已经存在了大约30万年。只有在过去的50年里，我们真正开始向室内回退，过着艺ificial lights的生活，很少与自然接触。如果你仔细思考一下，这真的很疯狂，我们认为这样的生活不会导致严重问题。而我们正在看到这造成了我们的健康问题，对吧？各种慢性病都是其结果。

So I'm a huge believer in, you know, the answers are found outside. And so, you know, get outside, get sun exposure regularly. And that's a huge component of not just health, but of just living a happy life.
所以，我坚信答案在外面。因此，你要出去，经常晒太阳。这不仅是健康的重要组成部分，也是过上幸福生活的关键。

I've got three kids that are often glued to screens, glued to video games. And it's like a huge challenge to get them outside. I saw a study done that kids that spent something like over two hours a day on video games are very likely to end up fat, lonely, depressed. You know, I shared with them this. I'm like, you know, you guys need to get outside, go on a bike ride, go swimming, do something. And what I say to that is duh. Like, how is that not obvious to people?
我有三个孩子，他们经常黏在屏幕前，沉迷于玩电子游戏。让他们出门玩成了一个巨大的挑战。我看到过一项研究，称那些每天玩电子游戏超过两个小时的孩子很可能变得肥胖、孤独和抑郁。你知道的，我和他们分享了这一点。我说：“你们需要出去活动活动，骑自行车、游泳，做点别的事情。”对此，我只能说duh（当然）。这怎么可能不明显呢？

The last item here is you wrote about the grass being greener. And there's a quote I love called comparison is a thief of joy. So talk about that final point about the grass often being greener on the other side. How do you avoid comparisons?
这里的最后一项是你说的草更绿的问题。我非常喜欢一句话，它说比较是快乐的贼。因此，请谈谈关于草在对面更绿这一点。你如何避免比较呢？

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, especially in the age of social media, there's levels to the game. And no matter what game you're playing, there's always someone who's a level above you that you can compare yourself to and you feel like you've never really been successful. So I think that's part of it is like realizing, you know, finding satisfaction by embracing what you have.
是的，这很难。我的意思是，特别是在社交媒体时代，这个竞争是有层次的。而无论你玩的是什么游戏，总会有人比你更高级，你就会拿他们来比较，感觉自己从未真正成功过。所以我认为，其中的一部分就是要意识到，找到满足感，接受自己拥有的一切。

And that's something I struggle with particularly because I'm a high achiever. I'm a I'd like to chase shiny new objects. I like to get better to improve to have more all those things. But you really have to keep that in check. And when it really gets dangerous is when you get into this grass is greener type mentality.
这是我特别难以应对的一点，因为我是一个追求卓越的人。我喜欢追逐那些闪闪发光的新事物。我喜欢不断进步，提升自己，获得更多一切。但是你必须控制住这种追求。真正危险的时候是当你开始陷入“外面的草更绿”的心态。

And I'm, you know, I'll use it for as a simple example, marriage, right? And so when you've been with anybody for 10, 20, 30 years, it's really easy to have those thoughts about how much greener the grass is on the other side, but you have to check yourself and then remind yourself of all the good in your life that you're not embracing. And then all the bad that will come if you know, you go chasing green grass all the time that's a that path only leads to misery.
我来举一个简单的例子，婚姻。你知道，当你和一个人在一起十年、二十年、三十年的时候，很容易出现对外面的草地更绿的想法，但你必须反思一下并提醒自己，你生活中有多少美好的东西你没有珍惜。而且如果你一直追逐那些绿草地，那条道路只会带来痛苦。

And I'm used marriage as an example, but it really applies in any area of life.
我以婚姻作为例子，但实际上它适用于生活的任何领域。

So one of the things I mantra that I kind of remind myself of regularly is happiness is a choice. It really is like every day you wake up, you're going to view the glasses half full or half empty. And it becomes self fulfilling. And so if you should always wake up, choose to believe the glasses have full and then little subtle behaviors and attitudes will make that come to fruition.
所以我经常提醒自己的一件事就是，幸福是一个选择。实际上，就像每天醒来一样，你可以选择把杯子看作半满还是半空。这种选择会成为自我实现的预言。所以，你应该总是选择相信杯子是半满的，然后一些微妙的行为和态度会使这成为现实。

I think you wrote like it's an asymmetric upside, right? By choosing to be optimistic and positive. There's no downside to choosing to be happy, but there's huge upside. And the converse is also true. Like, you know, choosing to be miserable. There's no there's no upside whatsoever. You don't nobody wins from that. But you sure do lose a lot.
我认为你是说这种写法像是一个非对称上升的方式，对吧？通过选择乐观和积极的态度。选择快乐并没有任何不利的一面，反而有巨大的好处。而相反的情况也是如此。比如，选择痛苦。这没有任何好处，没有人从中受益。但你肯定会失去很多。

Kevin, this has been awesome. I really have enjoyed going through this thread. I encourage our listeners to check it out on Twitter for anybody that wants to get in touch with you or learn more about you. Talk to us about a few ways they can do that.
凯文，这真的太棒了。我非常喜欢参与这个讨论。我鼓励我们的听众在Twitter上查看，并与你取得联系或了解更多关于你的信息。告诉我们一些他们可以做到这些的方法吧。

There's only one way. I mean, Twitter is kind of my hub for communication. So find me on Twitter at camp four. That C A M P the number four that Twitter handle comes from camp four is the name of the climbers campground at Yosemite National Park. It was kind of the crucible of American rock climbing. And so many, many years ago, like 20 2007 when I signed out for Twitter, I got that camp for handle.
只有一种方式。我的意思是，Twitter对我来说是我沟通的中心。所以你可以在Twitter上找到我，我的用户名是campfour。这个用户名来自于Yosemite国家公园的攀登者营地camp four的名字。它曾是美国岩石攀登的熔炉。所以很多年前，2007年，当我注册Twitter时，我选择了这个campfour的用户名。

Anything else you want to add before we close out anything that we didn't touch on that you maybe wanted to talk about?
在我们结束之前，你还有什么其他想补充的吗？是否有任何我们没有涉及到但你可能想谈论的内容？

No, Patrick, this has been a great discussion. So I invite people to follow me on Twitter and reach out through DMS if you have any questions or want to make a comment.
不，帕特里克，这是一次非常好的讨论。因此，我邀请大家在Twitter上关注我，并通过私信(DMS)提出问题或发表评论。

Awesome. Kevin, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.
太棒了。凯文，非常感谢你今天抽出时间来。真的非常感激。

Okay. Thanks, Patrick.
好的，谢谢，Patrick。

Okay, folks, that's all I had for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I'll see you back here real soon.
好了，伙计们，今天的节目就到这里。希望大家喜欢这个节目，并且我会很快再见到大家。

Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by the Investors Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin and every Saturday we study billionaires and the financial markets.
感谢您收听 TIP（The Investors Podcast）节目。请务必订阅投资者播客网络的《我们研究亿万富翁》（We Study Billionaires）节目。每周三，我们会为您讲解有关比特币的知识，而每个星期六我们会深究亿万富翁和金融市场的相关内容。

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This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional.
本节目仅供娱乐目的。在做出任何决策之前，请咨询专业人士。

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本节目由Investors Podcast Network版权所有。在转播或重播之前，必须获得书面许可。