The Silk Road: everything you wanted to know

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Welcome to the History Extra podcast, fascinating historical conversations from BBC History Magazine and BBC History Revealed. On today's episode, we're delving into the story of the Silk Road. But before we begin, don't be misled by the name. It's not a single road, and there was far more to it than simply selling silk. Speaking with Rebecca Franks, on today's Everything You Wanted to Know episode, Sam Willis leads us on a journey across the globe and through the centuries, as he explores this famous network of trade routes. Answering listener questions along the way, Sam shows how the true legacy of the Silk Road was not just the sharing of goods, but also of knowledge, culture and religion.

欢迎来到《历史额外播客》，这是来自BBC历史杂志和BBC历史揭示的迷人历史对话。在今天的节目中，我们将深入探讨丝绸之路的故事。但在我们开始之前，请不要被名称所误导。丝绸之路并不是一条单一的道路，其中的内容远不止丝绸的交易。今天在“你想知道的一切”这一集中与丽贝卡·弗兰克斯对话，撒姆·威利斯带领我们穿越全球和几个世纪的时光，探索这条著名的贸易路线网络。在旅途中回答听众的问题，撒姆展示了丝绸之路的真正遗产不仅是商品的交流，还有知识、文化和宗教的分享。

Thank you for joining me today on the podcast. We're here to talk about the Silk Road, perhaps the most famous trade route in history. But just what was the Silk Road? It's a fairly disingenuous term, actually, because it wasn't a road. It was lots of roads. In fact, it's even more complex than that. It was supposed it wasn't even a road at all. It was lots of routes, more like a network as a way to think about it. It connected East with West. It led to an extraordinary change of cultures. Obviously, it connected West with East as well. Not only was there an overland Silk Road, of course, there was also the maritime Silk Road connecting East with West. And the same ideas applies to that. So it's not a single maritime Silk Road either. It's not one route. It's loads, loads of roads, loads of routes. It's a network. It's a bit like a web.

感谢今天在播客中加入我。我们在这里讨论丝绸之路，也许是历史上最着名的贸易路线。但"丝绸之路"这个术语实际上相当不准确，因为它并不是一条单一的道路，而是许多道路的集合。事实上，它比这更加复杂。它其实并不是一条道路，而是更像一个网络的方式。它连接了东方和西方，导致了文化的巨大变化。显然，它也将西方与东方连接起来。当然，除了陆上的丝绸之路外，还有连接东方和西方的海上丝绸之路。同样的想法也适用于海上丝绸之路。所以它不是单纯的一条海上丝绸之路。它有很多路线，很多路径。它是一个网络。有点像一个网。

When was it around? It's an interesting question. You could say that it actually is still around. It never really went anywhere. I'm firmly in the belief of seeing strands of continuity. It certainly went through periods of more popularity than others, usually due to the presence or the absence of wars somewhere along the road or the roads. But because of the landmass we're talking about is so enormous, thousands and thousands of miles, it's very difficult to actually make generalizations about it. But one thing we do know is that it began very specifically with Han Dynasty China who opened the trade route shortly after 130 BCE. And more specifically, you can actually date it to the expedition of Zhang Chen in 138 BC. He heads west and returns and he demonstrates that westward travel is possible. The thing about Zhang Chen though is that he's a well-known diplomat. And it's a classic of sort of Chinese record keeping in history. Because he's important, he's worth remembering, you see. But it's worth considering the fact that Zhang Chen didn't randomly head west along a route that he'd invented. I firmly believe that a lot of these routes and connections already existed. And that Zhang Chen as a famous diplomat was the first person to do it. So we've got a good starting point, or at least a reasonable starting point at 138 BC. And it's called the Silk Road. But as you've said, it's actually routes. When was the name coined? And why was it called the Silk Road? This is a wonderful question. It's actually not called the Silk Road until the 19th century, until 1877. You have a German geographer and a traveler, a guy called Ferdinand von Richtofen. And he first used this term to describe this well-traveled pathway between Europe and East Asia. But what he actually said was Sidon Strasser. So that's probably the term we should be calling it, not the Silk Road.

它存在于什么时候？这是一个有趣的问题。你可以说，它实际上一直存在着，从未真正消失。我坚信存在连贯性的线索。它肯定经历了一些时期比其他时期更受欢迎，通常是由于战争的存在或者消失。但由于我们所谈论的是一个庞大的陆地，成千上万英里，很难做出总体性的概括。但我们确切知道，它是从公元前130年之后的中国汉朝开始的。更具体地说，你可以把它追溯到公元前138年的张骘远征。他向西出发并返回，证明了往西行驶是可行的。但关于张骘，他是一位著名的外交家。这在中国历史记录中是经典的例子。因为他很重要，所以值得记住。但值得考虑的是，张骘并不是随意沿着他发明的路线向西行进的。我坚信许多这样的路线和联系已经存在。而作为一位著名的外交家，张骘是第一个这样做的人。所以我们有一个很好的起点，或者至少是一个合理的起点，公元前138年，这个路线被称为丝绸之路。但是正如你所说，实际上它是由许多路线组成的。它是在什么时候被命名的？为什么被称为丝绸之路？这是一个非常好的问题。直到19世纪的1877年，它才被称为丝绸之路。有位德国地理学家和旅行家，名叫费迪南德·冯·里希托芬。他首次使用这个术语来描述欧洲和东亚之间这条经常被使用的路径。但他实际上说的是"西东大道"。所以这可能是我们应该称呼它的术语，而不是丝绸之路。

That leads us on to our first listener question, which comes from Erin Yi on Twitter. What were the major cities along the Silk Road between Europe and China? Again, it depends which route you took. But there are some really key and important cities. If you're going from West to East, I would say that Venice is your most important, either start or end point. And from there to Istanbul, then Damascus, Baghdad, Bukhara, Samarkand, Kotan, Don Hwang, Xi'an.

这让我们谈到我们的第一个听众问题，来自Twitter上的Erin Yi。在欧洲和中国之间的丝绸之路上，有哪些主要城市？取决于你选择的路线，但有一些非常重要的城市。如果你从西向东去，我会说威尼斯是最重要的起点或终点。然后是伊斯坦布尔、大马士革、巴格达、布哈拉、撒马尔罕、库尔勒、敦煌和西安。

But from Xi'an in China, it then splits, you see. You can kind of go to Loyang and then from there, north, south or straight on, it goes north to Beijing, south of Guangzhou or straight on to Ningbo. And these are all important ends to the route. There was a fascinating southern branch as well, which went from Baghdad down to Isfahan in Iran. It was the most beautiful city, Isfahan. And then down to Hormuz, which is a port. And from there to the Arabian Sea. And I think the key thing to note here is that both of these routes, one ending in Hormuz and the others in Shanghai on Ningbo, they end in ports and Venice on the other side.

然后，从中国的西安开始，丝绸之路分为两个方向。你可以选择去洛阳，然后由那里向北、南或笔直地前行，向北抵达北京，向南抵达广州，或直接前往宁波。这些都是路线的重要终点。还有一个迷人的南线，从巴格达一直延伸到伊斯法罕，伊斯法罕是最美丽的城市。然后再往下经过霍尔木兹，这是一个港口，继续延伸到阿拉伯海。关键要注意的是，无论是以霍尔木兹为终点还是上海或宁波为终点的两条路线，它们都以港口为终点，而威尼斯则位于另一边。

And the maritime aspect of this is all crucially important. You can't actually understand the significance of the Silk Road without understanding the port cities at either end of it. And can we turn now to what was actually traded on the Silk Road? Is there a clue in the name? What would have been traded? There's a bit of a clue in the name. But it's more of a kind of an inspirational clue to make you think about all the other things that could be traded. So yes, they traded silk.

这其中的海洋方面非常重要。如果不了解丝绸之路两端的港口城市，实际上是无法理解其重要性的。那么我们现在可以转向丝绸之路上实际进行的贸易是什么了吗？名字中有线索吗？会有什么被交易？名字中有一点线索。但这更像是一种启发性线索，让你思考可能交易的其他物品。所以是的，他们交易丝绸。

And silk was a monopoly of the Chinese for thousands of years. The myth has it that it was discovered by a princess who was sitting under a mulberry tree in a cocoon of a silk worm fell into her team and began to unravel. And from that she realized that there was this incredible strand of material, which could be woven. It's very strong. It's very beautiful as its natural sheen. And the Chinese were the only people who knew how to farm it. They knew how to weave it and to work it.

丝绸在中国独占了数千年。 传说是一位公主坐在桑树下时，一只蚕茧掉到她的手上并开始解开。 从那时起，她意识到有一条令人难以置信的材料，可以纺织成细绳。它非常坚韧，具有自然的光泽和美丽。只有中国人知道如何养殖蚕茧，知道如何纺织和加工它。

But once you understand that and that the silk that's traded is the foundation of it, then it becomes a kind of a key to opening a box of treasures because they didn't just trade silk. They traded all sorts of things. They traded spices, precious metals, handicrafts. Chinese very, very good at making the most beautiful things. And silk dresses and silk coats was not the only thing. They traded weapons, animals, clothing. They traded people, a huge amount of stuff.

但是一旦你理解了这一点，并且认识到丝绸贸易是它的基础，那么它就成为了打开宝盒的一把钥匙，因为他们不仅仅交易丝绸，还交易各种各样的东西。他们交易香料、贵金属、手工艺品。中国人非常擅长制造最美丽的东西。丝绸裙和丝绸外套并不是唯一的交易品。他们还交易武器、动物、服装。他们交易的东西数量庞大。

Now with all of this movement of people and goods, they also came to exchange ideas. And I think that's the most important takeaway about the silk road is, yes, there are goods going from left to right and right to left, but it's the ideas that are important. Religion, science, maths, art. Religion is probably the most powerful example. If you go to China, the single easiest way of demonstrating the power of the silk road is to go to Xi'an where there is an enormous mosque. And it's a very old one. So mid-8th century mosque, 740s. And similarly, if you want a more modern version, you can go to see the Catholic Cathedral in Guangzhou, which is fabulous. Or the giant Budders in Dunhuang. So you've got religion spreading through China, spreading through Asia. And of course, you've got Christian sites all over Eurasia as well. And it's all made possible by this great connection of people, which happens on these roads, these routes known as the Silk Road.

随着人们和货物的流动，他们也开始互相交流着思想。我认为这是丝绸之路最重要的一点，当然，有货物从左到右，从右到左来往，但是思想才是最重要的。宗教、科学、数学、艺术，宗教可能是最有力的例子。如果你去中国，证明丝绸之路的力量最简单的方式就是去西安，在那里有一座巨大的清真寺，非常古老，建于8世纪中期740年代。类似的，如果你想看一个现代版本，你可以去广州看那座华丽的天主教大教堂，或者去敦煌看那些巨大的佛像。所以，宗教通过中国传播，通过亚洲传播。当然，欧亚大陆还有许多基督教遗址。所有这一切都得益于这些道路，这些被称为丝绸之路的路线上的人们的连接。

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Find out more and book your break now at warneahotels.co.uk Can you paint a picture of what it would have been like to travel on the routes? I think it depended really who you were. If you were new to it, then the experience would have been absolutely astonishing to get a sense of the enormous variety of cultures and people and languages and architecture in particular. I think that you are going to come across and the need to carefully walk your way through those cultures if you had any chance of actually coming back alive.

立即前往warneahotels.co.uk了解更多并预订您的休闲旅行。你能描述一下在这些路线上旅行时是什么样子吗？我认为这实际上取决于你是谁。如果你是新手，那么这个经历会令人惊叹，能够感受到各种文化、人群、语言和建筑的巨大多样性。我认为你将会遇到需要仔细穿越这些文化的情况，如果你想有机会能活着回来。

But if you were a merchant who did this for a living, was maybe born and brought up as the child of a merchant on the Silk Road, then I think the majority of the time it would have been pretty boring and pretty uncomfortable. It would have been very hot, it would have been very cold. It very much I think depends who you were, where you were and when you were. But an enormous variety.

但是，如果你是一个以此为生的商人，可能是出生在丝绸之路上的商人的孩子，那么我认为大部分时间都会相当无聊和不舒服。天气可能会非常炎热，也可能会非常寒冷。我认为这很大程度上取决于你是谁，你在哪里以及什么时候。但是会有非常多样化的情况。

I think that the real joy of this is that you wouldn't necessarily know what was ever going to happen and who you were going to meet. Once you were on the Silk Road, the possibility and the likelihood of something unusual and exciting and interesting happening was actually quite high. So although the majority of the time it would have been darling boring, the potential for it being amazing was always there.

我认为这件事情真正让人快乐的是，你从来不知道接下来会发生什么，你会遇见什么人。一旦你踏上丝绸之路，发生一些不寻常、激动人心和有趣的事情的可能性和概率实际上相当高。尽管大部分时间可能会非常无聊，但是它变得令人惊喜的潜力始终存在。

You mentioned earlier, there was a risk you might not come back alive. How dangerous was it? The first thing that comes to mind is some drawings in a cave in China. The far, far west of China, which I saw, which depicted banned its robbing a merchant They're definitely with thieves. They're definitely where robbers, the environment was utterly terrifying in some places. Particularly places like the Takla Macan, a great desert there, which is roughly translated as the place of ruin. So you're not just being threatened by other people. You're not just being threatened by other merchants who maybe want what you've got. And robbers who are just there to prey on people passing by. But it's the environment, I think, which would have really been your number one enemy.

你之前提到，有可能面临生命危险。到底有多危险呢？我首先想到的是中国某个洞穴里的一些画作。这是我在中国极西部看到的，画作描绘了被禁止盗窃一位商人的情景。那些人绝对是贼。他们绝对是劫匪，一些地方的环境非常可怕。特别是像塔克拉玛干这样的地方，那是一个废墟之地，大约可以这样翻译。所以你面临的威胁不仅来自其他人，也不仅来自也许想得到你的东西的其他商人和抢劫者。最大的敌人实际上是环境，我认为那会是你最大的敌人。

Did many people travel the length of the Silk Road? It's very difficult to give a concrete answer. What we do know is that very few merchants traveled the entire length of the Silk Road. And that's an important distinction to make. So the majority of the merchants traveled short distances to and fro and became experts on particular legs and became well known on those legs. And then that's how it all really worked because they would have known the tax collectors and the local government people and the local soldiers.

很多人都曾沿着丝绸之路旅行吗？给出一个具体的答案非常困难。我们所知道的是，极少数商人曾完全穿越丝绸之路。这是一个重要的区别。因此，大多数商人只是在短距离之间来回旅行，并在特定的路段上成为专家，逐渐在这些路段上变得知名。这就是整个过程的运作方式，因为他们会熟悉税务人员、当地政府人员和当地士兵。

This kind of trading network doesn't work at all unless there are trusted human connections all the way along it. And by only trading on short stretches of the Silk Road, those little links in the chains became possible. So relatively speaking, no, it was the goods that went the whole way along it rather than the people.

这种贸易网络只有在整个过程中都存在着可信赖的人际关系时才能发挥作用。通过只在丝绸之路的短距离上进行贸易，这些小小的联系环节才有可能存在。所以相对而言，是商品而非人们本身穿越整个丝绸之路。

One person we do know who traveled a lot on the Silk Road was Marco Polo who began his travels in 1271. Can you tell us a bit more about his journey and what he saw along the way? He's fascinating character Marco Polo and he went away for a very, very long time. It's something from like 1271 to 1295 and a really significantly large amount of his life. Anyone's life in that period in the 13th century.

有一个我们确实了解的人，在丝绸之路上进行了很多旅行，他就是马可·波罗，在1271年开始了他的旅程。你能否告诉我们更多关于他的旅程以及途中他看到了什么？他是一个非常迷人的人物，马可·波罗，他离开了非常长的时间。从约1271年到1295年，这是他生命中的一个相当长的时期，也是13世纪这个时期任何人的生活中的重要部分。

The first point to note about Marco Polo is that he's not just done this off the top of his head and in his own way. He's following in the footsteps of other people, most notably his father and his uncle. So there's a family connection there. They've been to some of, by no means all, some of the places that he has been. So in some respects, he's not really a pioneer in terms of being a European. There are also, it should be emphasized, other Europeans doing the same kind of thing around the time that Marco Polo is.

关于马可·波罗的第一个要点是，他并不是凭空和自己的方式来进行这一切的。他是跟随其他人的脚步，特别是他的父亲和叔叔。所以有一个家庭的联系。他们去过一些地方，但绝对不是他去过的全部地方。所以在某种程度上，他并不是一个真正的欧洲先驱。同时，值得强调的是，同时期也有其他欧洲人在做同样的事情。

What makes him stand out is that he writes it all down and it becomes the first sort of proper travel, log travel story. He's a Venetian. He comes back after all of these wonderful, wonderful travels where he's been to the court of the Kublai Khan. Also, he spends a lot of time with a very famous Muslim scholars and scientists, astronomers, architects, cartographers. So he does meet a lot of fascinating people. They're very much at the top of the tree of the Silk Road.

他与众不同的地方在于，他将这一切都记录下来，并成为第一种真正旅行日志故事。他是一位威尼斯人。他在经历了一系列美妙的旅行后回来，曾去过忽必烈汗的宫廷。此外，他还与一些非常有名的穆斯林学者、科学家、天文学家、建筑师和制图师们度过了很多时间。所以他确实遇见了许多迷人的人物。他们在丝绸之路的顶端。

Yes, he's spending his entire time with normal people, normal merchants, you might say, but he does get to interact at a much higher level than anyone else really has done. So he's a Venetian. He comes back after all of these magnificent travels and finds out that Venice is at war with Genoa and he gets put in prison and he actually tells the story of all of his travels to his cellmate. And I was really wonderful to suddenly discover that you're in a cell with someone like Marco Polo who has experienced the world in a way that so few had. So a fascinating person.

是的，他和普通人、普通商人呆在一起，可以这样说，但他与其他人相比，确实可以以更高的水平交流。所以他是一个威尼斯人。他经历了所有这些壮丽的旅行后回来发现，威尼斯正与热那亚交战，他被关进了监狱，实际上他向狱友讲述了他所有旅行的故事。突然发现和马可波罗这样的人一起关在牢房里，他以一种少有的方式体验了世界，真是太神奇了。他是一个令人着迷的人。

And if you read his diaries, his books, journals, there's still quite a challenge to work out what's true, what isn't true. And that's part of the fun of it because he was good with the story, Marco Polo. And as was the guy who wrote it all down for him, so you've got to be pretty careful. There are, however, some things which are certainly true. He's amazed, he's constantly amazed by animals and he's amazed by people and food and traditions. And that all feels very natural.

如果你阅读他的日记、书籍和杂志，要确定什么是真实的，什么是虚构的，依然是个相当大的挑战。这也是其中的乐趣之一，因为马可·波罗擅长讲故事。而记录这一切的人也很出色，所以你必须要非常小心。然而，有一些事情是确定为真实的。他对动物、人们、食物和传统的惊异始终如一，这一切都给人一种非常自然的感觉。

But a little game you can play. So you just go and read the travels of Marco Polo and at the end of each page, write down what he thinks true, what he's made up. Sometimes I'm imagining you get so swept up in the story, there's a bit of you that doesn't even mind. No, I mean, as a historian, I think this is really important. It's a point I'd like to make.

这是一个小游戏，你可以试试。就是你去读《马可波罗游记》，然后在每一页的末尾写下他认为是真实的和他编造的内容。有时候我想象你会被故事深深吸引，以至于你并不介意其中有些许虚构。不，我的意思是，作为一名历史学家，我认为这非常重要。这是我想要提出的一个观点。

In the case of Marco Polo, it's really interesting. I don't think it matters what actually is true or not. What matters is that Marco Polo would like us to believe that it's true. He's a man who's in control of his stories, in control of his narrative. He's got a pretty flexible relationship with facts and truth. And the whole point about history is not to go through it and to try and make sure that everything we know is entirely true. History is much more creative than that. The world is much more fun than that. And part of the joy of Marco Polo's work is to just let it kind of wash over you and bathe yourself into chaotic and wonderful stories of the past.

关于马可·波罗的情况，真的非常有趣。我认为真实与否并不重要，重要的是马可·波罗希望我们相信这是真实的。他是一个掌控自己故事的人，能够掌控自己的叙述。他对事实与真相有着相当灵活的关系。而历史的重点并不是去核实我们所知道的一切是否完全真实。历史比那更具创造力。世界也比那更有趣。马可·波罗作品的一部分乐趣就是让它像洗礼一样浸润您，让您沉浸在过去那些混乱而美妙的故事中。

Good and trade with the reason, really, for the Silk Roads existence, but actually the people crisscrossing countries and continents, they brought with them ideas, culture, art, religion. What was the impact? Well, I think goods and trade is one of the results of the Silk Roads existence. It's not necessarily the cause of it. There is an innate human desire to travel and explore and to meet other people. And I think that that's actually at the heart of it. So you've got all of these different cultures, kind of all existing. They all know each other exists. It's not like they're in a complete bubble. They did know about each other and curiosity drove people to want to explore and yes, take commercial opportunity. But I think the first point there is it's not necessarily the goods that created the Silk Road. I think it was something a bit more, a bit nicer, a bit nicer story, rather than people just trying to make a buck.

丝绸之路的存在原因是贸易和商品，但实际上，人们在穿越国家和大陆时，他们带来了思想、文化、艺术和宗教。这产生了什么影响呢？嗯，我认为商品和贸易只是丝绸之路存在的结果之一，并非充其量的原因。人们内在地渴望去旅行、探索和认识其他人。我认为这是丝绸之路存在的核心所在。所以你会发现各种不同的文化相互存在，他们彼此知道对方的存在，并非彼此封闭。他们确实了解彼此并出于好奇心而想要探索这些区域，并从中获得商业机会。但我认为首要点并不是商品创造了丝绸之路，而是存在了一种更加美好的、更加动人的故事，而不只是人们试图发财。

What was the cultural impact of the Silk Road? They're a good and they're a bad part to this question. So the good, the exchange of knowledge, of mathematics, astronomy, wonderful inventions like paper, not so wonderful inventions like gunpowder, cultural exchange always has the good side and the bad side to it. Yes, it's wonderful. You have this great sort of connecting and meeting together of diverse populations. But that always throughout history comes with friction. So you can't really have one without the other. It's messy in the long run. I'd like to think it was good. I mean, if you take a really long view of history, of human history, then the first half of it is people moving away, people kind of evolving and coming from the cradle of humanity in Africa and going out and spreading all over the world. And then the other half of it is of people coming back together again. And that happens with people traveling distances. They can do it over land. They can do it on foot. They can do it on camel and horse. However, it might be on donkey. Well, they can do it by ship. And this is such an important part of that great re-meeting, the great reconnecting of populations all over the world. And that's a lovely story, I think. And at the heart of the Silk Road, that's why it's really important.

丝绸之路对文化的影响是什么？对于这个问题，有好的一面，也有不好的一面。好的一面是知识的交流，包括数学、天文学以及一些精妙的发明，比如纸张，但也有一些不那么好的发明，比如火药。文化交流总是有好坏两面的。是的，这样的交流很棒，不同人群之间可以连接和相互了解。但是在历史上，这总是伴随着摩擦。因此，你不能只看到好的一面。从长远来看，这一切变得复杂。我认为丝绸之路是一件好事。如果你从历史的角度看待人类的历史，那么前半部分是人们离开，从人类的摇篮非洲迁徙到世界各地。而后半部分则是人们再次汇聚在一起。而人们之间的距离缩短是通过旅行实现的。可以通过陆地旅行、步行、骑骆驼和马匹旅行，或者乘船旅行。而这是全球人口重新连接的重要组成部分。这是一个美好的故事，丝绸之路正是其中重要的一环。

More generally, what benefits and drawbacks did it bring? It was so important with numeracy, with the creation and spread of art and appreciation of other cultures. I think that's why it's so important. So on the one hand, yes, people are learning how to do arithmetic because it's spread to areas of the world, which didn't know about it. But the other, you're also appreciating those cultures who have invented something. So truly wonderful. It's interesting thinking about it, I think, in a bit later on in history, that the 18th century with East India moon and that kind of impact. Now, that had a terrible cultural impact through colonization, yes. But also, if you go to European museums now, you can see a wonderful array of items which have been collected over time because they have been appreciated. And they've been appreciated for the skill and the cultural complexity, which has led to the creation of some of the most remarkable artifacts. And this isn't just a one-way process. This isn't just people in the West collecting goods which have come from the East. It goes the other way around. So if you go to the Forbidden City in Beijing now, you can go to the Hall of Clocks. The one thing that did go the other direction was automata and clockmaking. So the Europeans were better at that than anyone else. So it isn't just just a one-way process of paper and arithmetic, a gunpowder coming east to west. It's the goods that went west to east as well. I think we need to learn and appreciate more about that. But clockmaking and automata is one of them.

更一般地说，它带来了什么好处和缺点？它在数学能力、艺术创作和对其他文化的欣赏方面非常重要。我觉得这就是为什么它如此重要的原因。一方面，人们在学习如何进行算术运算，因为它传播到了一些之前不了解的地方。但另一方面，你也在欣赏那些发明了某些东西的文化。所以真的很棒。想想它真的很有趣，我认为在历史的后期，例如18世纪的东印度月亮等，它产生了一种糟糕的文化影响。是的，但是如果你现在去欧洲博物馆，你会看到一系列精美的艺术品，因为它们被人们所欣赏。它们因其技术和文化的复杂性而被欣赏，这导致了一些最为卓越的艺术品的创作。而且这不仅是单向的过程。这不仅仅是西方国家收集来自东方的商品，反之亦然。所以如果你现在去北京的故宫，你可以参观钟楼。唯一一件沿西方方向传播的东西是自动机和制钟术。在这方面，欧洲人比其他地区更擅长。所以这不仅仅是纸张和算术、火药从东方到西方的单向过程。西方也有商品传到了东方。我觉得我们需要对此进行更多的学习和欣赏。而制钟术和自动机就是其中之一。

And when was the heyday of the Silk Road? I think the heyday of the Silk Road would have been maybe a 13th century, the 14th century. And that's when Samarkand was just talking about before and Uzbekistan becomes this magnificent city at the very heart of the Silk Road under the Timurids and Timur in particular. And that's because you need a certain amount of time to consolidate the wealth and to have it really kind of bedded down and established as a trade route, as a place that people can and have made real money before.

丝绸之路的鼎盛时期是在哪个时候? 我认为丝绸之路的鼎盛时期可能是在13世纪、14世纪。在这个时期，萨马尔罕（Samarkand）就像之前刚刚提到的，在蒙古帝国的带领下，乌兹别克斯坦成为了丝绸之路上的一座壮丽城市。这是因为需要一定的时间来巩固财富，使其真正成为一个贸易路线、一个人们可以通过它赚到真正钱财的地方。

It's not necessarily the period I'm kind of most fond of. If you think about the history of the Silk Road, I think the early history is fascinating. That was the first Chinese diplomat who travels all the way there. Zhang Chen, he has a great deal of trouble even getting there. He's actually imprisoned by the Zhong-nu for 13 years before he even gets out the other side and go and explore where he was meant to go. Then he's imprisoned on the way back. He has to escape twice. He's a very tough time with it. I think that's fascinating. And it also, I think, tells us a great deal about the value of the Silk Road. So the Zhong-nu aren't just imprisoning this Chinese diplomat on a whim. They know they're in a really, really important, powerful position of a middleman between two or more really, really significant cultures. So that means that in some form, the Silk Road already existed and it certainly demonstrates that they knew all about its geopolitical importance. I think that's a fascinating period. So before the first official Chinese diplomat, that's when I'd like to have gone and explored it.

这并不一定是我最喜欢的时期。如果你考虑一下丝绸之路的历史，我认为早期历史是非常迷人的。那是第一个中国外交官到达那里的时候。他叫张陈，在到达那里之前就遇到了很多麻烦。他实际上被匈奴囚禁了13年才能出发去探索他本应该去的地方。然后他在返回的途中也被囚禁了，不得不两次逃跑。他在这一切中经历了非常艰难的时刻。我认为这很有趣。而且，我认为它也向我们展示了丝绸之路的巨大价值。所以匈奴并不是随便囚禁这位中国外交官。他们知道他们处于一个非常重要和强大的中间地位，连接着两个或更多非常重要的文化。这意味着在某种程度上，丝绸之路已经存在，并且它的地缘政治重要性是他们所了解的。我认为这是一个令人着迷的时期。所以在第一个正式的中国外交官出现之前，那是我想去探索的时期。

And if we could turn now to the end of the Silk Road, although you've already hinted that perhaps there is no end, but we've got a listener question from Rosemary Kelty on Twitter. And she asks that I've read that the Ottoman Empire ended the Silk Road. Why did they seek to destroy the Silk Road and wouldn't they have benefited from the continued commerce? Yes, I think the answer to that is in the question. They didn't because they knew about the benefits of it. There's a really interesting aspect to this. The Silk Road didn't really work without the Venetians. The Venetians are so important. So the goods come over land. They get to Gaza, maybe Tyre, a port in Lebanon, a bit further up the coast. Maybe they got to Istanbul. But what happens then? And the answer is the Venetians happens then. The Venetians have been living in a swamp in the north of the Adriatic there and become incredibly rich because they become the next stage of being a middleman. They make the ships that transport the goods all over Europe. When the Ottomans come along, they decide that they don't want to give the Venetians trading privileges. The idea that the Silk Road stops is an idea that has come down through us through a lot of really, really cross Venetians. It's a very specific take on what actually happened. More broadly, there are so many Silk Roads and Silk routes. The Ottomans can't even begin to stop them all. To say that they tried and that they did is wrong, to say that they wanted to is probably wrong because they knew the value of it anyway, to say that they really wanted to piss off the Venetians is very true.

现在，让我们来谈谈丝绸之路的尽头吧，尽管您已经暗示可能没有尽头，但我们收到了一位来自Twitter的听众罗斯玛丽·凯尔蒂的问题。她问我是否读到奥斯曼帝国结束了丝绸之路。为什么他们试图破坏丝绸之路？他们不会从持续的贸易中受益吗？是的，我认为问题的答案就在其中。他们没有这样做是因为他们知道其中的好处。这其中有一个非常有趣的方面。丝绸之路在没有威尼斯人的情况下无法正常运作。威尼斯人非常重要。商品经过陆路运输，到达加沙，也许是黎巴嫩的一个港口泰尔，或者继续沿着海岸线到达伊斯坦布尔。但之后会发生什么呢？答案就是威尼斯人。威尼斯人一直在北亚得里亚海的一个沼泽地区生活，他们因为成为一个中间人而变得非常富有。他们制造船只将商品运输到整个欧洲。当奥斯曼帝国出现时，他们决定不给予威尼斯人贸易特权。丝绸之路停止的想法是来源于一群非常反威尼斯的人。这是一种非常具体的对实际情况的看法。更广义地说，有很多丝绸之路和丝绸路线。奥斯曼帝国甚至无法阻止它们。说他们尝试并成功了是错误的，说他们想这样做也可能是错误的，因为他们无论如何都知道其中的价值，但说他们真的想气垫威尼斯人是非常确切的。

This again moves on in history. The Ottomans decide to have a go at the Venetians even more by building ships. So the Ottomans don't have a navy. They build themselves one and they do it when they get to Istanbul and they take on Satsnable. There's another really important thing that's happening at the same time. And that is the development of global maritime power. So it's not necessarily that the Silk Road stopped. It's that they changed. And one of the most important changes was the Portuguese. And the Portuguese worked out how to build ships that could go around the bottom of Africa. And they also started to develop navigational aids that help them do it. Sea charts. The courage, the brains, the money to actually do it. That happens at the same time. Why that happens is a really interesting question. And to a certain extent, it's got something to do with the Ottomans is that people wanted to find another route to the East, which didn't involve going through Ottoman controlled land. But that's only one part of it.

这又是历史的继续。奥斯曼帝国决定通过建造船只来进一步挑衅威尼斯人。因此，奥斯曼人没有海军。他们自己建立了一支，并在抵达伊斯坦布尔并与索兹纳布尔战斗时实现了这一目标。与此同时还发生了另一件非常重要的事情，那就是全球海洋力量的发展。所以，丝绸之路并不是完全停止了，而是发生了变化。其中最重要的变化之一便是葡萄牙人的出现。葡萄牙人想出了如何绕过非洲南端的船舶航行，他们还开始开发帮助他们进行航行的导航工具，如海图。这需要勇气、智慧和资金来实现。这一切发生在同一时期。为什么会发生这样的事情是一个非常有趣的问题。在某种程度上，与奥斯曼帝国有关，人们希望找到另一条通往东方的路，而不需要经过奥斯曼帝国控制的土地，但这只是其中的一部分。

The point is is you've got another massive trade route opening up and it's a maritime one. And that's when everything really, really shifts because you can get from Europe to Guangzhou or one of the other big Chinese ports. And you can do it really quickly. You can do it in the ship.

重点是，你有另一条巨大的贸易航线正在开辟，而且它是一条海上航线。当这一切发生时，一切都会真正、真正地改变，因为你可以从欧洲到达广州或其他中国的大港口。而且你可以很快地完成这一旅程，通过船只的方式。

I think that answers as well. Another listener question from Susie on Twitter. Did the Silk Road or routes continue in any capacity after the fall of Constantinople in 1453? Yes, absolutely. The Ottomans were definitely still interested in the treasures and luxuries of the East without a shadow of a doubt. It was more difficult for some of those goods to get through Ottoman controlled lands to European ships. But there were other ways of getting to Europe, notably over land. You can just go up and across rather than directly across to the Mediterranean then onto ships. The maritime Silk Road really kicks off then. And that's absolutely fascinating the way that all of these different countries were all linked together by sea.

我认为也是。Twitter上还有另外一个听众Susie提出的问题。在1453年君士坦丁堡陷落之后，丝绸之路或航线是否继续存在？是的，当然。奥斯曼帝国肯定仍然对东方的宝藏和奢侈品感兴趣，毫无疑问。一些商品要穿过奥斯曼帝国控制的土地到达欧洲船只变得更加困难。但有其他的方式可以到达欧洲，尤其是通过陆上路线。你可以直接往上走，然后横穿，而不是直接穿过地中海然后乘船。这时海上丝绸之路真的开始兴起。而这绝对是令人着迷的，因为所有这些不同的国家都通过海路连接在一起。

And I've seen that first hand. I've been in Eastern Africa and I've spoken to a guy who lived on an island there who has got Chinese DNA. I've walked along beaches in Eastern Africa which have produced shards of Ming pottery. I was told by a fisherman there was some Chinese pottery washing up. I didn't believe him, but we managed to go there and explore it. And within 10 minutes I had a hundred pieces of Ming Chinese porcelain in my hands. There are graves of Chinese sailors in Eastern Africa. There are 13th century coins from Chinese ships in Malacca. It's all there and we know it happened. We're just struggling to put the pieces of the puzzle together. But it won't be long before archaeologists have got this nailed. But it's fascinating how that world worked because the Chinese were not the only ones with maritime power, maritime capability and maritime interest. So they're coming up against all sorts of other fascinating maritime states all around the Indian Ocean and the Rapiens Sea.

我亲眼见过这一切。我曾在东非地区停留过，与一个住在那里的人交谈过，他拥有中国血统。我曾在东非的海滩上散步，那里曾经出现过明代瓷器的碎片。当地的一个渔民告诉我他曾捡到过一些中国的瓷器，起初我不相信他，但我们最终前往那个地方进行探索。不到10分钟，我就手里拿着一百多件明代瓷器。在东非还有中国水手的坟墓。在马六甲还有来自中国船只的13世纪硬币。这一切都确凿无疑，我们知道这些事情曾经发生过。只是我们在努力将这些碎片拼凑在一起。不过，考古学家们很快就会弄清楚这一切。这个世界的运作方式非常有趣，因为中国并不是唯一一个拥有海上力量、海上能力和海洋利益的国家。他们与印度洋和拉布汶海周围各种有趣的海上国家发生了接触。

So I know you've traveled to many locations on the Silk Road. What has that experience been like? I did the Silk Road for the BBC which was travelling from Venice to Beijing. And then I made a program on the Maritime Silk Road for Nat Geo. And that was also amazing. And understanding how it all links together is suddenly sort of becomes clear and you appreciate just what an achievement it was. Maritime technology I think is such a crucial part of it. That's interesting. The way people navigated the actual Silk Road, I'm interested in that. How maps worked before maps, those little roots and mountain passes. You see in China and the mountains there are these brilliant little mountain passes which are nothing more than kind of tow tracks for donkeys. They were so important to actually connecting these huge areas of the world together. I was recently in China exploring one part of those mountains just south of Xi'an. And understanding how people got through mountains is really, really important. But they managed to do it. I'd love to know how. That's generations and generations of knowledge which is being passed on. That actually if you go up here, you go around that corner, then you get to the mountain pass. It takes you through the mountains to the plains and they will find other people doing different things and then you meet them. And you go. And I hugely admire the courage of people who decided to just get up and give it a go.

所以我知道你曾经去过丝绸之路上的许多地方。那样的经历是怎样的？我曾经为BBC去过丝绸之路，从威尼斯到北京旅行。然后我为国家地理频道制作了一档关于海上丝绸之路的节目。那也是令人惊叹的经历。了解它们如何相互连接，突然之间变得清晰，你会欣赏到这是一个多么大的成就。海上技术我认为是其中非常关键的一部分。很有意思。我对人们是如何导航丝绸之路上真实的情况很感兴趣。在地图出现之前，人们是如何确定路线的，那些小道和山口。你可以在中国看到这些精巧的山口，它们仅仅是供驴子走的小道。它们对于连接世界上如此广阔的区域起到了至关重要的作用。最近我在中国南部的西安附近探索了这些山脉的一部分。了解人们如何越过山脉是非常重要的。但是他们成功地做到了。我很想知道他们是如何做到的。这是代代相传的知识，告诉你如果你往上走，绕过那个转角，你就会到达山口。它会带你穿过山脉到达平原，你会遇到其他人在做不同的事情，然后你们可以一起前行。我非常钦佩那些决定起身尝试的人们的勇气。

It sounds like there's also plenty for us still to discover about the history of the Silk Road and Silk routes. Yeah, there absolutely is. And I'm really excited about the archaeology of it. It's quite hard to get your head around the actual scale of the territories involved. But when there's that much land involved, then there will be the most wonderful archaeological discoveries to be made. And I think there are places like Tajikistan, I think, fascinating as well. The northern roots of the Silk Road are brilliant. And interestingly, that's where the new Silk Railroad runs. And I've also done that. And that's a railway line which now connects Europe with China directly.

听起来我们对丝绸之路和丝绸之路的历史还有很多待发现的地方。是的，确实如此。我对考古学特别感兴趣。实际涉及的领土规模非常大，这让人很难理解。但是当涉及到这么大的土地时，就会有许多美妙的考古发现。我认为像塔吉克斯坦这样的地方也很有意思。丝绸之路的北部起点非常棒。有趣的是，那里现在有一条新的丝绸铁路。我也参观过那里。这是一条直接连接欧洲和中国的铁路线。

What was the long-term impact of the Silk Road? I think the long-term impact of the Silk Roads to do with celebrating connections, it's to do with bringing people and ideas together and appreciating. The achievements of different cultures along the way. That's the rosy way of looking at it. The bad way is to say that it was fundamentally important in war and the shaping of nations, not only because of gunpowder being traded along it, but because of the value of it. It then became something that was disputed and that was fought over. And controlling it became hugely important, not only for raising money through taxes, but strategically it became so significant. It's interesting when you're talking about such a long period of time as well, there's always going to be some fighting and some war involved, not certainly in the case with the Silk Road. So you can't say all go to all bad. It's a real mixture of the two.

丝绸之路的长期影响是什么？我认为丝绸之路的长期影响与庆祝联系有关，与汇聚人们和思想、欣赏沿途不同文化的成就有关。这是乐观的角度。不好的一面是，它在战争和国家塑造方面具有根本重要性，不仅因为它沿途贸易了火药，而且因为它的价值。于是，丝绸之路成为了有争议的、为之争斗的东西。控制它变得非常重要，不仅可以通过征税筹集资金，战略上也变得非常重要。有意思的是，当你谈论如此长的时间段时，总会有一些争斗和战争的参与，丝绸之路也不例外。因此，不能说只是好或者只是坏。实际上是两者的混合体。

Why is it then that we've all become interested in the Silk Road? That is one of the most interesting points about it. So the Silk Road is now a term that people are familiar with, really familiar with. Peter Frank, a fan wrote his one for book in 2015. I made my BBC documentary the same year or maybe the year after. And it's been one of the most viewed history documentaries ever made by the BBC. And because I think of those two profoundly impactful media types of content, people are offering me about it. But why that became important? I think it's all to do with the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative. The Chinese Belt and Road Initiative, they launched this globally significant economic geopolitical movement, investing hugely in countries throughout Asia, a way of wielding Chinese soft power, essentially. And through that, it was a phrase that we became more familiar with, and then it becomes something that lands on the ears of people. And they have a rough idea about what it is, but don't know anything about it, want to find out more about it. So it's a really, really interesting question. I don't think anyone's really worked out, but I think the answer is China. The answer is China. They launched something and we all suddenly went on, it's a good idea. Let's find out a little bit about the history of that.

为什么我们都对丝绸之路感兴趣呢？这是其中最有趣的一点。现在丝绸之路已成为许多人熟悉的术语。彼得·弗兰克是一个粉丝，他在2015年写了一本关于丝绸之路的书。我在同一年或者之后制作了我的BBC纪录片。这是BBC制作的最受欢迎的历史纪录片之一。正因为这两种深刻影响的媒体内容，人们对丝绸之路向我提供了很多信息。 但为什么这变得重要呢？我认为这与中国的一带一路倡议有关。中国的一带一路倡议是他们推出的具有全球影响力的经济地缘政治运动，他们在整个亚洲的各个国家大规模投资，实质上是运用中国的软实力。通过这一倡议，我们变得更加熟悉这个短语，然后它就落入了人们的耳中。他们对它有一些模糊的概念，但对它一无所知，想要了解更多。所以这是一个非常非常有趣的问题。我不认为有人真正弄清楚，但我认为答案是中国。答案是中国。他们发起了一项活动，我们突然对它感兴趣。让我们找出关于它的历史一点点资料。

That was historian and broadcaster Sam Willis, who travelled the Silk Road in 2016 for a BBC TV series, and has explored both the maritime Silk Road and the Silk Railroad for documentaries on National Geographic.

这是历史学家和广播员萨姆·威利斯（Sam Willis），他在2016年为BBC电视系列节目穿越丝绸之路，并在国家地理纪录片中探索过海上丝绸之路和丝绸公路。

Thanks for listening to the History Extra Podcast. This podcast was produced by Sam Leal-Green.

感谢您收听《历史Extra播客》。本播客由Sam Leal-Green制作。

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Embark on a thrilling journey through time with the captivating BBC History magazine. Subscribe now for a great companion to the History Extra Podcast and let pages of history unfold before your eyes. To sweeten the deal, we're offering an exclusive limited-time subscription offer, five issues for just five pounds. That's an incredible 86% saving on the shop price. But that's not all. A print subscription also comes with many benefits. Subscribe today at an unbeatable price of five issues for five pounds. To take advantage of this offer, please visit www.bysubscriptions.com forward slash Hexpod24. If you're based in the U.S. or anywhere in the world, you can also subscribe to head to www.bysubscriptions.com forward slash Hexpod24. Terms and Conditions Apply.

开始一段扣人心弦的时间旅行，与引人入胜的BBC历史杂志为伴。现在订阅，成为History Extra播客的绝佳陪伴，让历史的页面在你眼前展开。为了更优惠的价格，我们提供独家限时订阅优惠，五期杂志仅需五英镑。这相当于商店价格的惊人86%的折扣。但这还不是全部。订阅印刷版还有许多优势。现在以仅需五英镑的无可比拟的价格订阅五期杂志。要享受此优惠，请访问www.bysubscriptions.com/Hexpod24。如果您位于美国或全球任何地方，也可以前往www.bysubscriptions.com/Hexpod24进行订阅。适用条款和条件。

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of Your Dead to Me. We are the comedy show that takes history seriously and we are back for a seventh series where as ever I'm joined by brilliant comedians and historians to discuss global history and we're doing Catherine the Great of Russia with David Mitchell, the history of Kung Fu with Phil Wang. We're doing the Bloomsbury group for a hundredth episode with Susie Ruffle and we're finishing with a Mozart Spectacular with the BBC concert orchestra. So that's series seven of Your Dead to Me plus our back catalog available wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是格雷格·詹纳。我是《你已作古》的主持人。我们是一档以幽默方式认真对待历史的节目，现在我们迎来了第七季。本季将有众多杰出的喜剧演员和历史学家加入我们，与他们一起讨论全球历史。我们将与大卫·米切尔一起探讨俄罗斯的叶卡捷琳娜大帝，与菲尔·王一起探讨功夫的历史。在第100集中，我们将探讨布鲁姆斯伯里小组的历史，与苏西·拉费尔共同主持。而最后一集将是与BBC音乐会乐团共同呈现的莫扎特壮观音乐会。因此，这就是《你已作古》第七季的内容，以及我们之前的所有节目都可以在任何你获取播客的地方收听。